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Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by orb451, Jan 27, 2010.
@ the apple joke
I'm a Vegan.
I Judge PETA neither Positively nor Negatively. I simply don't judge.
No, we've evolved to be able to eat whatever was available. That's not the same thing.
It also says nothing whatsoever about it being right or wrong.
fuck fucking PETA. anyone who thinks it's cruel for a hen to lay an unfertilized egg for my consumption in a perfectly safe environment needs a slap
bend them over and fuck some sense into them
They're just a bunch of maladjusted joiners who have no idea what they're talking about, and want to be part of something to feel special because they're bored. So they get all pissy about things that shouldn't even be of concern, and treat it like a war.
Fuck fanatics, of all kind. They do not deserve respect and if there's such a thing as justice, they won't get it.
I seem to observe that some of you people are quite judgmental.
You may want to consider a change of perspective, not necessarily to agree with, but possibly to appreciate and understand the point of view of the opposition.
If a Vegetarian or Vegan, like myself, wants simply to not kill something, why should you get so angry about that? Isn't it a law to "not kill", isn't it a commandment to "not kill"? We simply extend that past humans out of compassion, mainly.
I am in no way trying to influence or control you people. I really don't want that, so please don't misunderstand me.
I'm just offering the suggestion that others may be offended by your comments. For example:
"Fuck fanatics, of all kinds", could be understood to be a very fanatic thing to say.
Either way, I love you all; Meat-Eaters, Veggies and even the French.
Harry, I think it just comes down to personal choice. You choose to live a Vegan lifestyle for whatever reasons you have. They are your own reasons and that's cool. Me, I choose to eat meat, again it's my choice. Then you get people like PETA. They not only want to influence the things I eat and the reasons I eat them, but they want to influence what I wear, what it's made out of, etc. And on top of that, they go and do things like getting their panties in an unholy twist over Punxatawny Phil. The damned groundhog lives a better life than most humans in this country and yet PETA gets all uptight over it. To the point where they want to replace a time honored tradition because they *think* the animal is being mistreated, mishandled, abused, etc.
So while people like you and I might be able to just say "to each their own" and let people choose as they wish. People like PETA stage protests, do press releases, etc. Forcing their will, their agenda on everyone. I think it's THEY that need to be a lilttle more observant and considerate and realilze that as much as they love animals, not every single person out there will feel the same way and as such should be FREE to choose what they wear, what they consume, how, where, when and why.
PETA are radicals, pay no mind to them.
They stem from a long line of people just wanting to be special or different. It starts with Veganism in saying "yeah well I wont eat anything that involves animal use" and now the most extreme is Raw Foodism which is basically "oh yeah? well I wont eat anything cooked!" whats next? Perhaps a lifesytle that dicates not eating anything that was farmed with man made machines, just hands.
This is simply nothing more than an "I'm better" than you competition.
Heres some news for Vegans, who mostly eat organic food
-Organic farming requires Organic means of pesticide (there is no such thing as farming without pest control, you would have no crops!) what is organic pesticide??? BONEMEAL, BLOOD, ANIMAL BY PRODUCTUS
Also, in the farming of a lot of food, many feild mice and other little criters die from various farming related activites
If you are a Vegan and drive a car, what is the glue made out of that holds your inspection sticker in place????? ANIMAL BYPRODUCTS
You will never, ever, EVER escape the laws of nature. In some way or another, something will die. You cannot escape it, yes its terrible and I have made a few Vegans upset by bringing this up.
And as a vegetarian myself (who also eats fish) I know this. I know for a fact that the block of tofu i bought the other day came off of a truck that might have run over a few animals, and that the person getting paid to restock the shelf might take that money and buy a cheese burger. You can never escape it, its just nature, and if your going to be more "natural" than nothing is more natural than eating meat. It takes human intelligence to wish to avoid causing suffering and thus abstains from meat. A human in a natural state would not be some majestic being who walks about the woods casually picking figs off a tree.
What I will say about the case of suffering is that yes, by purchasing meat you prolong the suffering and death of another animal. The comment of "well its already dead" is not looking at the whole picture. Of course it is dead, no one here would be so naive as to think that, and of course there are more animals that will be killed, but I, by not buying meat, did not partake in it. At least not directly. When you purchase meat, it is product that needs to be replaced, and is replaced by killing more animals. Also, it comes down to the simple fact that I will not give my money towards something I dont agree with. From the looks of the politics board, I would be correct in saying that almost none of you here would buy a book written by Glen Beck or Rush Limbaugh, and in that case I would never buy meat products, or products that DIRECTLY involve the killing of an animal because I dont agree with it. Consider it a life long boycott
If I lived in the woods as a primitive human, I would certainly eat what I can eat to survive. The day I walk out my door and see a world that looks like Fallout 3 is the day I will possibly change my eating habits, I feel that since I am not in that situation, I will not eat meat. most of us would never kill another human just to do it, but if we were in a life or death situation and were being attacked, then that would be a different story.
Do animals really suffer though? The answer is yes. there is scientific evidince to show that mammals and birds go through the same brain chemsitry as we do when we feel fear, love, happiness, sorrow, and depression. Granted, their psychology is different from ours, therefore they will experience it in a way that is unique to them. If animals didnt suffer, or didnt care, or (and this one really boils my blood) if god or some sort of deity placed them here to be killed for our food (and for bible nuts, there are many places within the bible which condems the eating of Any meat) then we would not need gates to contain them, we wouldnt need to restrain them. The very fact that they will try to run from what they fear is evident enough that there is a will to be free, and a desire to find happiness. If they simply didnt suffer, pigs would not try and escape from being slaughtered, and you wouldnt need to hold a chicken down to cut its head off, you could just place some really sharp siscors around its neck and cut it off. Clearly they do not want to be killed, yet we do it. (and yes im going to bring it up) just as africans would try to escape slavery, and I wonder how many people said that slaves werent human, that maybe they didnt suffer. Of course they would think that! Europeans had only known white skin and certain features as "human" for how many centuries? Of course they would mistake africans for something different, and without modern science or logic, they had no way of telling. Does it explain why they did what they did? Yes it explains it, but does it excuse it or make it ok? NO.
The same for animals, perhaps someday we might have certain inventions that can better process their brain waves and maybe translate their thoughts into some sort of understandable language. And what if we find out that they feel and think very much like we do?? Could you really look into the eyes of something that wants to live, and breathe, and eat, and be free, and willingly slaughter it? If you cant, buying meat makes you a hypocrite. You can take pleasure in the works of others, you could never do it, but its perfectly ok for someone else to kill the animal (there is no such thing as humane killing when the animal easily wants to be free) so that you can enjoy the taste of flesh.
As far as fish? If i could, I wouldnt ever touch fish again, however its hard to live in society and not. I like going to resturaunts, NORMAL restaraunts, with NORMAL people. I cant stand these PETA hippy freaks, theres one Vegan place in the city I go to every so often (its called Blossom for any of you New York City folk around here, amazing food, best vegan/vegetarian restaruant ive found in manhattan) and its only because the people there are somewhat normal. But it is hard to go to a restaraunt and always order something that is 100% vegetarian, and so I choose the most harmless choice I can make, Fish
Fish do not exhibit the same mental patterns as mammals and birds, or even reptiles. They tend to respond almost exclusively to the central nervous system. Do they feel pain? Of course, but they do not process it as anguish or emotionally drawn suffering the same way a cow does when its about to be slaughtered.
Also, and this only works for fresh caught fish and not farm raised fish, purchasing fish works differently than it does for meat. They are caught in large quantities and in a natural environment, my purchasing of them does not weigh as heavily as it does if I were to buy a chicken, which of course would be replaced by simply killing another chicken.
Also, it goes without saying that a vegetarian diet is a heathier diet. Where do I get my protein? Beans, peanuts, Tofu. Where do I get my vitamins? Multi vitamns and eating the right food, actually knowing what certain vitamins are found in vegetables. And while I've never personally tried it, I hear wheatgrass juice is great for that as well.
And for the especially sarcastic group that says things like "just because it doesnt scream when you slit its throat doesnt mean that a vegetable isnt suffering" I too followed this train of thought. Well to solve this answer we just need to look at the brain waves of a tomato plant and......wait, there is no fucking brain! And also, a plant being used for food is a part of its reproductive cycle. When you eat an apple and discard of it, the seeds can be planted, the outer material needs to be eaten first. The same with vegetables, the more you use them and farm them, the more the plant flourishes. They survive by being eaten and used. UNLIKE animals.
Enough of my ranting and raving. as i said earlier, PETA and groups like the ALF are radicals, pay no mind to them, just as their parents probably paid no mind to them which would explain why they act like 9 year olds still.....
I'm genuinely interested in where you get this information from? A quick search seems to bring up a number of non-animal based pesticides. For example.
The incisors in my gob tell me that I should eat meat. Our bodies have evolved living on a diet involving meat. I wonder where the hell these people even get their morality. Going against nature is moral? Would you tell any other carnivore they're bad or immoral for doing what comes naturally?
And I do get that the majority of people are vegetarians in protest of commercial farming methods but you could take that stance on absolutely anything you consume. Someone or something has been exploited along the line, it's the basis of modern society.
I foresee some flames and neg rep in my future for this but what the hell, why not:
I can sum up my feelings on this in two words: FUCK ANIMALS. I treat them well, I don't beat them and I'm kind to them. But you're crazy if you think that I'm going to never eat meat again. It bothers the shit out of me that people are concerned with saving some random red fungi or a "rare" baby seal, when there are people living in constant poverty and starving almost daily. I bet the vegans wouldn't mind eating meat so much if they hadn't eaten if about 4 days. That bacon might get mighty tasty by then. In fact scientists have proven that starvation will cause a person to eat things they normally don't in order to gain the necessary nutrients. (case in point, I recall a story about a guy trapped out in the wilderness lived off of deer and fish eyes.) We live in a country with so much excess that we become arrogant about what is socially acceptable to eat.
Do I think people should be kind to animals? Of course, but I can't stand it when people put animals on a pedestal. We're animals as well, no better or worse. We were just gifted with a more complex brain. People tend to chase after pointless causes when there are real people out there in need of help. People like PETA would cross a bridge of starving Ethiopian children to coddle a poodle that gets more in a day than the kids get in a week.
Call me crazy, but I see this as a serious distortion of priorities.
^ I largely agree with your sentiment, but that first sentence man... it could have been worded way better If you get any neg-rep, that sentence is why
They tell you that you are able to eat meat, and that at some stage in our evolutionary history, this was (probably) an advantageous ability. There's a difference between should, and able. There are a large number of people today living in a position where meat is not a necessity for healthy survival.
Are you really suggesting that our moral values (an arguably human concept), should stem primarily from the behavior of other animals around us? Chimpanzees appear to have little problem with aggressive behavior, such as rape* -but should our moral values come from our closest living relatives? I think most people would strongly disagree with this notion. Perhaps you need to ask yourself where you get your morals from.
*It's debatable whether or not rape is the correct term when applied to non-human animals. The point, however, stands.
At the end of the day it comes down to if you believe animals should be afforded the same rights as people.
As it seems, most people think animals are lesser than we (people) are.
Personally, I tend to agree. I'm not saying that we should cause undue harm, such as abuse/torture for no gains (food/medical research), but I sure love a good steak.
I can see where you're coming from, but I think it's more accurately a question of whether an animals life is equal to something that is in essence a luxury to most people.
Very true, and I can see where you are coming from. While most of the developed world could stop eating meat, as well as using animal byproducts such as gelatin and leather, they don't.
Why? Because they do not believe animals are entitled to the right of life, as much as we (people) are entitled to what makes us happy. Does that make us bad or evil, not in my opinion. I'm sure others would beg to differ.
Look at it this way, most everything in the modern world is a luxury, including the keyboard and computer you're using to see and reply to this thread. In some way, shape, or form someone has suffered something in order for you to have it. Just ask the young, impoverished Asian boy who lives on the brink of poverty and turmoil building modern luxuries for us. He certainly didn't choose his fate, not anymore than the Cow that became my dinner.
Everything has a cost, and I'm not talking about money.
I agree with most of what you've said here. You've definitely identified the underlying problem with discussions of this nature - to what extent does one apply their moralistic values. Logic (or a least a desire to avoid hypocrisy) would denote that we should apply them to all aspects of our life equally, but as you've implied, this can be almost impossible. I don't know the answer to the question, or if there even is an answer within the limits of todays society.
I will however, suggest that becoming a vegetarian/vegan is a fairly small step most people can take in minimising the suffering of other living creatures.
I appreciate that you can see what I mean.
Though, another small step could easily be not using a computer, or playing guitars made overseas, or................ I'll just stop. I'm getting quite silly.
There are millions of things we can stop doing. We just choose not to.
I feel that vegan-ism (which I respect, opposed to vegetarianism which, to me, is a joke), is too Utopian of a concept for us humans. Where is the line drawn, and for what reason? Do we allow those who don't have the means to procure a vegan lifestyle eat meant? What about those who feel they have religious convictions regarding the consumption of meat? Whose going to tell the meat packers, butchers, farmers, tanners, etc they don't have a job anymore?
Some day, thousands of years from now, perhaps we as a people would be ready for it. Not yet though, not the way I see it. I have zero opposition to the idea of vegan-ism, don't get me wrong. I more or less have a problem with it's current voice.
I do wonder why you see vegetarianism as a joke though? In certain senses, I imagine it could be quite valid.
The point about religious convictions is a whole new discussion within itself , although I personally hope that in the utopian society you suggest we will have evolved past such ideas. Again, IMO, those who can't survive on a vegan/vegetarian diet shouldn't be expected to, my main "gripe" is with those who do have a choice.