George Floyd...

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by BlackSG91, May 28, 2020.

  1. Randy

    Randy Full on Friendship!™ Super Moderator

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    Dude, the guy said racists are victims and their issues need to be heard in the same venue as those they wish to see literally exterminated because of the color of their skin. Keep beating your head against that wall, let me know when you make it to the other side.
     
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  2. Necris

    Necris Bonitis.

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    :lol: I refuse to believe you aren't taking the piss.
     
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  3. StevenC

    StevenC SS.org Regular

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    To quote the great Sean Garrity: "The pain of not having enough pain is still pain, young man."
     
  4. Señor Voorhees

    Señor Voorhees SS.org Regular

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    What I always do... Treat people with respect, and if I can donate time and money to causes, I will. (Been working through the quarantine and was still able to show my support.) I'll continue speaking out against clearly racist people. Will me, as an individual, make a dent? On my own, no, but when millions of individuals adopt this train of thought, then it's no longer an individual.

    Not that this matters... I'm not sure what should be done in your eyes.

    I mean, I agree... Let these people speak. I think it's better if they do come out and complain. Maybe I'm thinking too positively, but it shows us much more readily who to avoid and gives logical ammunition against completely non-legitimate grips. We can listen to them, doesn't mean we have to give a shit about their supposed plight.

    Also, most people don't think whites are inherently evil... Just that we're in power, we're letting this happen, and we're trying to come up with excuses about how everything is just fine how it is instead of using our majority factor to help fix the issues our ancestors bred into society. You don't have to feel personally guilty about slavery or whatever since that was then and this is now... But "now" is still bad, and we do have a duty to help eradicate the leftover hate from the past. And that includes calling out racist bullshit and not putting up with the unfair treatment our law enforcement puts on people of color.
     
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  5. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    I get that I'm pretty far removed from the details of American culture, but I don't believe for a moment that impoverished white people have it worse than anyone else specifically on account of their race. I've seen white people bounce back from having nothing, or from becoming addicts or alcoholics etc. It's happened to family. Granted, I've also seen people fail to bounce back and end up dead. Their race was never the determining factor though.

    I absolutely DO believe however, that such an argument might be presented to try to take steam away from those who actually need the support right now. It's just another "all lives matter" but phrased differently.
     
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  6. Randy

    Randy Full on Friendship!™ Super Moderator

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    I mean, great if you're white and you can debate ignorant people as some kind of ideological chess match.

    I'm a person of color, I have been bullied and attacked, called every name in the book and had myself and my family threatened by people I don't even know. Let me know when you walk into a diner to get dinner and get called nigger by a table of people you don't know, and how you intellectually disarm people when you're instead afraid for your life because you're just going about your business but other people are picking you out just because of your genes.

    I don't see the guy at the rally waving the flag and say "boy, I want to debate that guy". I say okay, well, there's one less place I can bring my mom with me. I hope that guy doesn't go to the same gas station my mom or my sister goes to on their way to work in the morning. So on.

    This idea of giving hate groups a venue just because white people want to expose them is great when you're debating this on paper. Not so much when you're living in the crosshairs.
     
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  7. Boofchuck

    Boofchuck SS.org Irregular

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    I would like to say that very few people actively consider themselves racist. There are different levels of racism from prejudice, discrimination, and systemic racism. Often it is unconscious and takes dialog and empathy to help people understand.

    As a white man I cannot speak for the black experience. But I can get the fuck out of the way and amplify the message. As guitar players I hope you all can understand this.
     
  8. Randy

    Randy Full on Friendship!™ Super Moderator

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    Tbh, I think people have a seat at the table regardless of race absolutely. Its just a matter of what subjects people have that they can speak on factually and trusting what they say, within reason.


    I go to my mechanic because my car is making a noise. I don't know what it is, but I describe it to him and he gets an idea what's wrong, puts it on the lift, he tells me and he gives me a price to fix it. We're both part of the conversation, and I defer to his expertise. Likewise, I assume he's acting in good faith but I maintain at least some level of caution. If it's rattling in the back and he tells me the engine is shot and I'm in for $3,000 to rebuild it, I'm understandably skeptical. If what he describes makes sense and the price is reasonable, I don't penny pinch or assume his screwing me and we move forward.

    It's a funky analogy but the point being, informed and uninformed people have a role. People with direct knowledge and indirect knowledge play a role. But we respect eachothers contribution by not trying to out-expert the experienced person, or not using the fact we're the informed person to overplay our hand against the other. That's what a mutual, respectful dialogue looks like.

    I heavily disagree with the sentiment that white people need to stay out of the way or shut up so black people can have their moment or whatever is out there. I think there's a lot of white people that are ill or underinformed of what life is like for a POC, but that doesn't mean they don't have meaningful contributions at least somewhere in the process.

    That's an entirely different thing than saying people literally starting from the position blacks are inferior and have no place in society or shouldn't exist, etc should have a seat at the table. That's not a rational starting point. If we want to analyze where prejudice comes from, there's times and places for that. But talking about systemic racism leading to law enforcement killing black people as some kind of venue for white supremacists to chime in is just totally tone deaf. And no, I probably wouldn't give a black guy saying kill all white people a seat at the table either.
     
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  9. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

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    - I agree with all of this under that scope of law enforcment you point out.
    - I'd say for the the guy's saying kill all whites or kill all blacks however should have a seat too. It's what they want to say. People don't have to agree with it but everyone deserves their say. That's equality.
    - To be a person that determines who gets to sit at the table to begin with is similar to segregation and seperatism mentality. Who's anyone to say who gets to participate in the conversation? This is why these problems exist right now to begin with. Because of blacks not being heard. Everyone needs to be heard. You don't solve it by continuing a similar tradition of the past. It's easy to see how everything ended up this way though, because it's almost natural for people to keep thinking this way. On the surface it seems a great idea to keep these people out, but it's really just the same thing repackaged, in a sense. In a sense.
    - If you leave anyone out then they will be left out and not have a say in anything which will cause the cycle to continue. Everyone has to hash it out together, even the racists, radicals and anarchists. Even that homeless guy that talks to himself on the corner and everyone thinks is schizo. He just might have a genius solution. People should not be discounted is all I'm saying. I love you Randy. Please don't be angry.
     
  10. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

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    To everyone...
    I'm in no way meaning to offend. I sincerely want a dialog. Yes, I do believe that POC and racists alike should all be heard. That's freedom of speach. At that point everyone can know what the other believes, how they feel, and what they want. This is eveyone putting it out there.
    - From that point everyone can say what they do and don't agree with and the reasons why.
    - After that, everyone can offer their solutions and desired outcomes.
    - From there everyone can go back to bashing and killing eachother.
    - OR, maybe, they can start living the part and living the life they claim to stand for and desire. It's up to us to actually live it.
    - The more hate, close mindedness, unwillingness to reach amends and compromises, and straying away from peace that we live out and act upon without thinking, then the longer the evil in the world will prevail and the worse things will get for us all.
    - The problem from all sides that I see is poor communication and insincerity for resolution. Nobody is actually listening to each other with any sincere desire to understand. All sides are interrupting each others ability to speak any full thoughts, they're taking everything out of context, they're reading between lines and extrapolating things that don't exist. They're putting beliefs onto people even when the person is saying that's not what they believe, and they're telling the other persons what they feel or think and so on. They're causing fights and arguments and on and on.
    - As the phrase goes; "You're either part of the solution or part of the problem." Well, the problem people exist on all sides and in abundance. The real minority are the people that are part of the solution, of which, I know I'm a part of. Those with a real desire for peace. Are you?

    - Best wishes to you all.
     
  11. Randy

    Randy Full on Friendship!™ Super Moderator

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    You're entitled to be wrong.

    It diminishes the importance of the discussion by allowing extremists who harbor nothing but ill will and prejudice into the discussion to drown out the rational and invested contributors.

    Those types were allowed a seat at the table to solve Germany's problems after World War I and that led to the near extinction of an entire race/culture of people.
     
  12. Randy

    Randy Full on Friendship!™ Super Moderator

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    And no, that's not a strawman or Godwin's Law. We're literally talking about whether or not white supremacists and the KKK have a role in discussing race relations and criminal justice reform.
     
  13. Señor Voorhees

    Señor Voorhees SS.org Regular

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    Oh hey, I had no clue you were a person of color! It doesn't change my opinion of you, other than it gives me a bit of perspective. I want to apologize. I didn't mean to imply that people should be free from criticism, and what I'm referring to in my initial statement is people should be able to air their supposed grievances "on the public stage" so to speak. I'll never ever know what it's like to be in your shoes, and I do actively try to make things better. I don't want to go into specifics, as it'd just seem I'd just be trying to win favor/brownie points, but I don't stand for people being outwardly racist in public. I have stood up to people harassing people of color despite being a wimpy little fat white kid at the time. I hope you understand that I'm taking your opinion into heavy consideration the next time I want to pretend like I understand the situation better than others. (especially when I don't know their race or the hardships they've faced.)

    I don't think people should be able to wave their flags, especially treasonous racist ones, without being called out. (Trump saying "good people on both sides" or not denouncing outright people affiliated with the KKK infuriates me.) In fact, I don't think ANYONE should be criticism free. My point was that I want people to pretend like they have an argument when they clearly don't. I want them to say "N*****s are dumb, here's why" and everyone jump on them for being scum. I'm also actually sickened that I live in Raleigh, and I found out that about a stones throw away from Hillsborough street, which today I found out has a monument at the end of it dedicated to "our confederate dead." (Link for reference. You can zoom in or google up confederate monument if it doesn't show up right.) https://www.google.com/maps/@35.780...4!1slVPwbn7U7Ao_PbJ3cy4iGg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

    Our country has such a massive boner for defending "our" history that we can't even let go of the even worse part of our history and have to celebrate it on our capital's property. Nevermind that the confederacy wasn't the United States. I hate to be that guy, but it'd be like Germany fighting to keep up statues of Adolf Hitler and waving nazi flags around like they're respectable citizens. We should acknowledge our tragic past and learn from it, not celebrate it.

    Again, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to defend what these vile fucks are saying, and I never want them to just say and act vile without repercussion. Admittedly it could still be very wrong, but I wanted them to be able to spew their "concerns" to the masses at large and have it critiqued by what I'm honestly hoping is a better society than it leads on. I want to hope, maybe against hope, that the vast majority would hear these people say their concerns and overall be like "well, fuck you, that's dumb, go to hell" but I can admit that's possibly wishful thinking.

    I respect you, I always have since I registered on this forum, and it legitimately upsets me that you've been treated in such a shitty fucking way because the way I know you is that you're a good person. Never met you in person, but the vibes you give off are great. I'll think my opinions through a little more clearly in the future, and I'll still probably fall short, but I'll try and adjust accordingly. I still think people should be ousted and critiqued for the, hopefully, better. I don't want people to be free to say what they want without consequence. In the ideal world people would not have just stood on the sidelines while you get threatened. I know I wouldn't have.

    Apologies, these thoughts might not be terribly clear as it's my birthday and 7pm so I've had a few drinks and might not be saying exactly what I want to. As a person of color, your opinion on what is and isn't okay means more than mine is the short of it. I encourage people, especially those personally effected by the way things are, to call me out if I'm out of line, as I encourage YOU to call ME out if I'm out of line at any point in this long ass rant or ANYTHING I've said. Like I said, I can pretend like I understand things, but I never 100% will because I'm white and I don't have those experiences that people of color do. I can only be corrected and try to fix it, which I always actively try to do. I am never against self criticism if it means helping the greater good.

    edit: Post edited because it included past saved quotes and stuff. My bad. not trying to hide anything I said or anything.
     
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  14. Ralyks

    Ralyks The One Who Knocks Contributor

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  15. Boofchuck

    Boofchuck SS.org Irregular

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    Dismantle and restructure. I hope with a concentration on de-escalation, social services, and a shift away from punitive action.
     
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  16. Randy

    Randy Full on Friendship!™ Super Moderator

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    Happy birthday! :lol:

    Thanks for the input and the kind words. I don't take any issue in what you said or did I intend to target you. I just think when we're on a guitar forum talking to people over the internet from the safety of our keyboard, it's easy to debate these things like a chess match or in theory, but sometimes it's worth reminding that these are real people and real life situations that happen.

    You've been respecful in your tone and open to input from a range of perspectives, so don't beat yourself up. This would be a better discussion if everyone was as open as you are. :yesway:

    I don't think we'll ever totally eliminate racism (as the little kid waving the Confederate Flag will confirm), especially the latent racism you experience in more subtle ways but the question is how it's allowed to manifest itself and how it effects people's lives. When people still die from a legal system that targets people of color, or when people are still targeted for threats or violence unprovoked and there's no legal recourse, I'd say that's a clear indication there's still work to be done. My biggest source of frustration in here is the fact the counter narratives seems to indicate people who AREN'T negatively effected by status quo are the vocal proponents of leaving things as is. That's a slap in the face to people who are living in fear and who are victims of things as they are.
     
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  17. narad

    narad Progressive metal and politics

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    You didn't notice his profile pic?
     
  18. Randy

    Randy Full on Friendship!™ Super Moderator

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    I never specified what color!
     
  19. GoldDragon

    GoldDragon SS.org Regular

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    One of my side jobs (was) driving for Uber. With CV and racial tensions, I don't think I'll be able to do it again. Talking to other drivers who are still out there, the situation is bad for white drivers. Protesters and s j w s will start debating with drivers, come to the conclusion that the driver is "part of the problem", then one star them, or worse file a complaint to get the fare reversed and the driver deactivated. One white Uber eats driver delivered to a black home recently, told she doesn't tip white drivers, and as
    he was walking away she spit on his back and then threatened him with violence.

    But that wasn't my main point, (these kinds of things are nothing new, they is just more tension and aggression out there now.)

    I've driven for several years, have thousands of rides, (full time when between contracts) and 60-70 percent of my customers are black. I live in a fairly affluent area surrounded by many poor, mostly minority neighborhoods. Don't want to give too much information, but on most days I am pulled into the murder capital of the east coast. I have seen everything.

    But even in my affluent area, I have many customers who live in section 8 housing. It's crazy, you could be in a 2million neighborhood and 3 blocks over there could be a huge section 8 complex, with dirt poor black ppl.

    So, having driven, talked to and observed all races of ppl, here are some observations.

    I have never had to kick out a black passenger, although I've cancelled rides (for one specific reason I'll mention in a bit.) I've kicked out many white passengers. People get kicked out for being rude, not following directions, lying about having a drink, damaging my car, saying racist or hostile things.

    ... Will finish tomorrow morning...
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2020
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  20. Randy

    Randy Full on Friendship!™ Super Moderator

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    Indeed, we can disagree on a lot of things but I think we can agree there's some shitty people out there and working directly with the public can be a thankless job. Regardless of race or anything else, the hope is that we encounter more good, decent and respectful people than the miserable few that make the work difficult. Glad you're not butting up against that in the midst of all this craziness. :yesway:
     
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