Exodus5

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Anybody else losing interest in Danerys? I mean she never really does anything but not get burned or be saved by something outside her control.
And why did a room full of strong warriors become the keystone cops because of a fire? They tried to open the door (blocked) ok, but the rest of the hut was made of straw. They can't break through straw?
The Hodor thing was clever, but sad.
I THINK I know how this will play out but, if it is like I think, eventually Jon Snow will have to face his Aunt for the throne. That is the part I want to see.
 

bostjan

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you know time travel is not actually a thing and any show that uses it invents their own rules for it, right?

Yeah, they totally broke my suspension of disbelief when a character time travelled, instead of dealing directly with the zombies and magical ice skeleton sorcerer warrior beings to help the magical fairy people so that they could all live long enough for the dragons to come and rescue them so that either the girl whose skin is miraculously unburnable or the guy who was brought back from the dead can finally rule in peace. :rolleyes:

Anybody else losing interest in Danerys? I mean she never really does anything but not get burned or be saved by something outside her control.
And why did a room full of strong warriors become the keystone cops because of a fire? They tried to open the door (blocked) ok, but the rest of the hut was made of straw. They can't break through straw?
The Hodor thing was clever, but sad.
I THINK I know how this will play out but, if it is like I think, eventually Jon Snow will have to face his Aunt for the throne. That is the part I want to see.

That's what happens when you never hear the parable of the three little pigs as a little kid. If those Khals recalled the big bad wolf, they could still be alive.

That's also the thing with Danerys. Most of her storyline is boring. Parts of it get exciting, but a lot of it boils down to being lost in the wilderness, or playing politics.
 

big_aug

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you know time travel is not actually a thing and any show that uses it invents their own rules for it, right?

And it pretty much never works and doesn't work here. That's what I'm saying. Bran being there at the tree creates Hodor. And yet Hodor is the one who got Bran there to create himself. Its completely broken. Its not even passable. I would have preferred if we just never learned his origin.
 

sakeido

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And it pretty much never works and doesn't work here. That's what I'm saying. Bran being there at the tree creates Hodor. And yet Hodor is the one who got Bran there to create himself. Its completely broken. Its not even passable. I would have preferred if we just never learned his origin.

ehh the stable time loop is one of the better ways to use time travel, imo. prefer that over multi-verses and whatever they had going in Terminator and that kind of thing.

about the only fictional show that really used time travel in a good way is Steins;gate and in that show, mostly it was because time travel just bred tragedy.. just like the moment in the last episode did for GoT.
 

mongey

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And it pretty much never works and doesn't work here. That's what I'm saying. Bran being there at the tree creates Hodor. And yet Hodor is the one who got Bran there to create himself. Its completely broken. Its not even passable. I would have preferred if we just never learned his origin.

I'm with you on that one. My wife really liked it but I just find it a bit thin and forced as a twist
 

wankerness

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This isn't nitpicking, I'm just letting it slide, but to those that DO nitpick these things: exactly what the heck happened here?

1) Spirit-Bran is in his vision of the past.
2) While there, he hears the present yelling at him, but no one else in the past can hear this.
3) While still there, he mind controls Hodor's body in the present. No one in the past is at all aware of this.
4) He commands Hodor to HOLD THE DOOR, still in the present. All of a sudden past vision Hodor spazzes out as if Bran had MC'd him, even though no on else in this past vision had any interaction whatsoever with Spirit-Bran, and apparently no one in these visions is in any way able to interact with the person peeking in on them (besides the Night King).

So...if you MC someone that is IN THE PRESENT, but WHILE you are in a vision, while ALSO being in the same vicinity as their past self is IN YOUR VISION, their past self will get totally f'd up? That makes all the hoops they jumped through in the later bad Terminator movies sound coherent by comparison!

Sorry about all the "MC" abbreviations, I played a priest in World of Warcraft for too long and it's still automatic :hbang:
 

brutalwizard

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I Got some Weapons grade, spoilers for ya.
PLEASE DON'T READ THIS, and complain cause warned you guys.

Only posting a few that are more relevant to what we have already seen.

These all come from the TRUEDE Leaks, Which have thus far been 100% accurate.

Benjen briefly returns to save bran and meera

Arya doesn't kill the actress, is gonna get waif'ed on, waif gets #rekt

Tower of joy never 100% says if R+L=J just alludes to it more


.
 

UnattendedGolfcart

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This isn't nitpicking, I'm just letting it slide, but to those that DO nitpick these things: exactly what the heck happened here?

Sorry about all the "MC" abbreviations, I played a priest in World of Warcraft for too long and it's still automatic :hbang:

Here's my take, I might be wrong, this is just how I kind of interpreted it:

- Present Bran mind controls Hodor. Gives him one command, the command Meera is shouting: "Hold the door." It's the only thing that mind-controlled Hodor is capable of thinking of.

- Vision Bran sees Wyllis, and I'm not sure but it almost seems like Wyllis sees him. He might be able to see Bran because he, as Hodor, is being mind controlled by him. Link between Wyllis and Bran established.

- If Wyllis sees and comprehends Vision Bran, and therefore can also comprehend his and Meera's order, then EVEN THOUGH HE'S IN THE PAST Wyllis' brain is still controlled by Bran. If not, then idk.

- This causes Wyllis' brain to fracture because he is in zero control of his body or brain in one time instance (Hodor) but is supposedly in control of his body and brain in another time instance (Wyllis) AT THE SAME TIME.

- Wyllis has a seizure-stroke-brain-fracture because of a paradox that he cannot be free-willed and mind-controlled at the same time.

- Bran creates Hodor, we all cry
 

wankerness

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Well, congrats, you came up with an even crazier theory than I thought of. I wonder if they'll explain it later or if this is a LOST sort of moment that will never make sense.

Nice future episode spoilers, none of them are particularly exciting, so what I'm really curious about is if now that Brienne is headed to riverrun
if now Stoneheart will finally show up and kill her.
It might never happen! But, now would be the time for it.
 

Fraz666

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Anybody else losing interest in Danerys?
me, from day1

my 0,02$ about the last episode:
1) boobs
2) I liked the present/past thing, I hope something else will be revealed about it
3) boobs!
 

vividox

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It was absolutely time travel. He traveled to the past and his presence there altered it. Its an unresolvable paradox now which always happens with time travel. I love me some good time travel stuff, but this was just dumb. They couldn't come up with a good explanation so they created this mess and then killed Hodor off to close it out.

I love the show and the episode, but this part was awful.
Is this the reason some people have a complete aversion to time travel of any kind? Because it creates paradoxes?

Time travel does not necessarily imply a paradox. From everything I've seen, GoT follows the Novikov Self-Consistency Principle of time travel - that is to say, it is impossible to "change" the past or "change" the future, if you go back in time and affect something, it's because you already affected it in the past. ASOIAF (the books, not the show) has already stated that Weirwoods don't experience time like humans do, they experience every time at once. That implies something like the NSCP must be true. It's also pretty closely related to the concept of destiny. If everything is predetermined and human's existence is simply a revelation of those predetermined events through the perception of time, time-traveling paradoxes simply don't exist.

Sorry to geek out on everyone, but time travel, when done right, is awesome.
 

vividox

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you know time travel is not actually a thing and any show that uses it invents their own rules for it, right?
And when people who think this write scripts for movies that use time travel, that's when you get really sloppy, really crappy time-travel mechanics.
 

bostjan

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I thought the Hodor thing was clear, or more descriptively, the intent of it seemed clear to me.

Bran isn't just observing the past, he's in the past. They already established that when he was in the past, he could interact to a small extent with the past if he became too emotional, or when White Walkers are involved, which might have more to it than we've been led to believe thus far.

When he's greenseeing, he's not 100% in the past, but still has a physical and some mental connection to the present.

So he's in the past, observing "who-cares-what," and the White Walkers come to kill him (I do think this is dumb on the characters' parts, since, well, they knew the White Walkers were coming for them already and did literally nothing at all about it, when they had time to leave), anyway, he's in the past with Wyllis, and in the present with Hodor. His connection to the present is where he's interrupted by Meera, which distracts him from the past, but he's unable to disconnect entirely from it. He knows past Wyllis is the same as present Hodor, and knows he has to warg into Hodor in order to save everyone, but it's complicated, since he's in the past. Some of his present warging spills over into the past, since Wyllis is Hodor, and the powerful emotional connection to what is going on, all causes Wyllis's mind to shortcircuit, causing Hodor to be Hodor.

I know it's a time loop. If Hodor didn't exist, then who would have brought Bran to the North? Right? Well, Wyllis seemed to be a friend of the Starks, and he would have still been Wyllis, so maybe Wyllis would have gotten him there just the same, but with a different story. But there are also the problems that existed in the moment that, well, Bran would not have tried warging into Wyllis if Hodor didn't exist. Say, alternately, Wyllis ended up being a powerful and fierce fighter and got Bran to the Three Eyed Raven, then Wyllis would have been able to get Bran out and hold the door without the command, or, more paradoxically yet, been able to respond more quickly and got Bran out of there fast enough that he could have barricaded the door instead of holding it tight.

So, you can look at it as "this was presented, and on the surface it makes sense," or, you can look at it as "this is what was presented, but deeper down, the motivations for it to get to that point do not add up." The former is what we usually have to do with fiction at any rate, and the latter could be explained by hidden variables, or whatever, that may or may not be revealed later. Either way, it's a paradox, but not a trivial one either way.

I find it interesting how the show has been very shy about the supernatural stuff, except a sprinkle here and there, like Melissandre and Stannis's shadow creature, Beric's resurrection, the Dragons, etc., but, started out with White Walkers and wights, and now seems to have taken a turn where magic is happening every episode.
 

wankerness

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I have zero problem whatsoever with the "paradox" of it and don't find that confusing (the show seems to be going with "all events have already happened," and the only reason he was able to "affect the future" was that he already had, making this a clean loop), I just don't understand the mechanics of present hodor being warged by bran in the past and this somehow messing up young hodor. If they'd like, had him warg young hodor and that caused present hodor to also be warged, I'd at least get what happened! How it went down is just some kind of bizarre accident that may be explained at a later date but is impossible to be fully understood given the information presented in the episode.

sYImfPw.png


Excuse this guy's use of "retard," I know that offends some people, but I liked the general idea of this post!
 

brutalwizard

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More super leak stuff tread carefully

Regarding wankerness on dat
brienanne/stoneheart post

Brieanne does go with pod, Bron's chillen there in jaimes camp who is there to take back rivverdip. Edmure tully surrenders, but blackfish starts up a fight.

Stoneheart, ain't comming ;(
[/QUOTE]
 

mongey

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watched it again last night . there's allot about the Hodor thing that doesn't gel with me . but I'm not going to pick at it too hard as it may get a better explanation later, but I doubt it

I'm willing to just let them have that one
 

SD83

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Hodor thing aside - is anyone else excited about the fact that the Greyjoys are getting their own arc this season? I always felt that they could include their house a bit more in the show and now they did :D

If they kept the ironborn a bit closer to the book and we had Victarion, then yes. As it is, Theon and Yara, yes, the rest of them can go drown (and they should, assuming they probably have a few hundred, maybe some thousand fighters at best and not enough trees to build a proper bonfire on all the Iron Islands.)
I don't understand all the hate for Dorne. They cut the idiot prince who went to Daenaerys and there was some other stuff in the last book, but I found Arya a lot more boring, even though her story is still a lot less boring than it was in the books (I have to reread them again. Got bored of pages full of names, banners, dresses and feasts in the third and never fully recovered :D ).

Am I the only one who finds zombies absolutly ridiculous, especially when they appear as a cross-breed between half eaten LotR-orcs and xenomorphs with leprosy. That might be the reason why I didn't care that much for Hodors death. Yes, nice simpleton, hero and all. Summers death hurt a bit, but to be honest, I skipped half of Brans parts in the books and I would have in the series. I'd rather watch Bronn sing to his Sandsnake for two full episodes than another Bran scene...
And while I'm at it, the dragons have become the single biggest dissappointment in GoT for me. Yes, we get a really brief moment of Drogon ex machina, and then he's gone again (Tyrion opening their chains was kinda nice though). Most of the time, they have absolutly no part in the story, besides lending Daenaerys her name, who apparently can't do anything on her own except setting things on fire. If there was a price for being the most incompetent woman in the realms of men, it must be decided between Sansa & Daenaerys.
They ran a bit out of big suprises. They had little ones (Ser Barristans death, to me maybe the saddest moment in the series), but big ones?
 

vividox

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He seems to think it was clear that Bran warged present Hodor by warging past Hodor. Maybe that is what happened, I'd have to watch it again. If that WAS what happened, I think they should have made it clearer?

That's definitely what I think happened. I don't think it was unclear.

While Bran is in his vision of the past, he can hear Meera shouting at him to warg Hodor, TER turns to him and says "do as your friend says" and then in the vision he Wargs Hodor (past Hodor's eyes roll back like he's warged and then present Hodor springs to action).

I've seen a lot of weird interpretations of what people think happened, but that to me is pretty clear.
 

wankerness

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That's definitely what I think happened. I don't think it was unclear.

While Bran is in his vision of the past, he can hear Meera shouting at him to warg Hodor, TER turns to him and says "do as your friend says" and then in the vision he Wargs Hodor (past Hodor's eyes roll back like he's warged and then present Hodor springs to action).

I've seen a lot of weird interpretations of what people think happened, but that to me is pretty clear.

I don't recall his eyes rolling back, I didn't think past Hodor was shown affected until future Hodor was to the door basically. I will rewatch it someday!
 


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