Fretbuzz choking off notes

[ZeroS1gnol]

Hi,

I have an issue with my Ibanez RG8, where on the low B and F# strings notes get choked off a bit, especially fretted (but also a bit open). I get a clear metallic 'clang' or vibration, clearly audible overtones when the string hits the frets while buzzing on distorted tones when I let a note sing for a bit. Sustain is quite poor. Good thing I play a lot of staccato metal, but still, it bothers me and it needs some attention. I was hoping someone could help diagnosing the cause.

The neck already has some relief (with visible concave bow). I wouldn't relieve it further tbh. I played around with the action and I feel it is already a bit high. Raising it has only minimal effect and it's getting too high to improve the issue.

Here are some images, and mind that they are not very accurate, but to give an idea:

Above is my 7 string, it's sitting around 3mm. Actually already quite high, but plays nicely with the tension I have on the strings. It sounds as clear as a piano string, hardly any buzz.


This is the 8 string in question. Action a bit over 3mm and still buzzing.

I really find it strange that it buzzes at this height, so I am thinking of other issues. Could there be an issue with the saddles, that I'm not hearing fretbuzz, but something else? Could it be the frets need to be leveled? Is there a way to check this without any specialist luthier tools? So I know where I stand? I hope to spend as little money on this guitar as possible. It was so cheap and I don't really like investing in something, when I can use that same cash to buy something better.

 

[Xaeldaren]

What gauge are you using for those strings? Are the particular frets where the buzz is occurring?

 

[ZeroS1gnol]

080 and 060. Buzzes the most below fret 9 I think, but basically buzzes anywhere. Even when I don't hit that hard. I find it baffling.

 

[tedtan]

Can you measure the relief?

Hold the string down at the first fret and fifteenth (or somewhere around the fifteenth) and measure the relief at the seventh fret.

Aside from needing more relief, it may need a fret leveling, heavier strings, or a tad higher action. Also check for buzzing hardware like the saddles (as you mentioned), tuners, etc to ensure they aren’t buzzing.

 

[ezboarderz]

tbh, you might have too big of a bow on the neck if its buzzing on the 9th and below. Try to get the neck as straight as possible and aim for action around 2mm to start with. Whats the string tension like for each string? Have the frets been worked on at all/arent problematic?

My advise is to focus on the neck and get that as straight as possible and then work your way from there. If you dont have a straight edge to validate the straightness of the neck, hold down the 1st and last fret and look at the gap on the 7th-9th frets. There should barely be a little gap there. Once you get that, start to lower the action and if its buzzing in the same places, then id get the frets worked on since thats probably the culprit, as long as you arent using super loose strings.

 

[ZeroS1gnol]

Did some measurements, relief on fret 7 is below 1 mm for both strings, there is a tiny visible gap.
Tension is 16.7 lbs for the F and 17.6 for the A# (I have it tuned down a half step.

Frets haven't been worked on afaik. There is no visible wear on them whatsoever.

I have a hard time understanding why too much bow on the neck creates buzz. The bow should heighten the action I would assume.

 

[nickgray]

I was hoping someone could help diagnosing the cause.

Straighten the neck as much as possible. Use a string as a guide, tune up a fat string by a few semitone so that it's really taught, then simultaneously fret it on the 1st and last frets. Tap on the string around the 12th fret. Note the gap between the string and the fret visually as well. Continue straightening the neck until the string lies as dead flat on the frets as you can make it.

With this done, tune the string back down to pitch. Fret it on every single fret and tap with your finger on the very next fret to it. Also visually look at the gap between the string and the very next fret to the fret you're fretting (what a mouthful). In other words, if you're fretting the 1st fret, tap on the 2nd fret and look at the gap between the string and the 2nd fret. Rinse, repeat.

Without a fret rocker on hand this is the most handy way of checking for leveling irregularities. Note that you're looking for extremely minute discrepancies, fraction of a mm. It is noticeable if you pay enough attention though.

If you have high frets, lower tension of the string and pull it away from the fret. Find a rigid piece of plastic with a flat side, maybe a handle of a screwdriver or something like that. Make sure it's nice and rigid. Put it flat bottom on the fret. Put the neck on your leg right at the bottom of the fret. Make very very very sure that the strings are away because you can very easily dent the fret and if the dent is even slightly deep you're a bit screwed. Hit the rigid plastic piece with a hammer, don't be too shy, but definitely don't go crazy hard either, give it a healthy tap. Then re-check the fret via the method described above. You might need to give it a few taps. But don't hit too too hard.

But ideally you need a good fret rocker. You'll be able to instantly check not just for leveling discrepancies but also for lifted frets and you'll be able to diagnose frets that spring back (which means they need to be glued). If the frets are lifting and you can't be bothered to glue them, if the level difference between the adjacent frets is tiny and the fret isn't lifting like crazy, you can just file it down a tiny bit, then polish. If you only file a little bit there's not much of a need to re-crown, so it's an easy DIY job with just some basic sandpaper and something to wrap it around (try a battery).

 

[Grindspine]

080 and 060. Buzzes the most below fret 9 I think, but basically buzzes anywhere. Even when I don't hit that hard. I find it baffling.

Buzzing the most at 9th fret is telltale that you need more relief. The truss rod action makes the biggest difference right around the 9th fret.

The good thing is that once you increase the relief, although it will raise the action further, you can reduce the action at the bridge and have more playability along the whole neck.

 

[Grindspine]

tbh, you might have too big of a bow on the neck if its buzzing on the 9th and below. Try to get the neck as straight as possible and aim for action around 2mm to start with. Whats the string tension like for each string? Have the frets been worked on at all/arent problematic?

My advise is to focus on the neck and get that as straight as possible and then work your way from there. If you dont have a straight edge to validate the straightness of the neck, hold down the 1st and last fret and look at the gap on the 7th-9th frets. There should barely be a little gap there. Once you get that, start to lower the action and if its buzzing in the same places, then id get the frets worked on since thats probably the culprit, as long as you arent using super loose strings.

Buzzing at the 9th fret indicates too little relief, not too much. A neck being straighter only increases fret rattle since strings in motion are an ellipse, not a line. A neck should never be completely straight if the instrument is meant to be played.

 

[ZeroS1gnol]

Straighten the neck as much as possible. Use a string as a guide, tune up a fat string by a few semitone so that it's really taught, then simultaneously fret it on the 1st and last frets. Tap on the string around the 12th fret. Note the gap between the string and the fret visually as well. Continue straightening the neck until the string lies as dead flat on the frets as you can make it.

With this done, tune the string back down to pitch. Fret it on every single fret and tap with your finger on the very next fret to it. Also visually look at the gap between the string and the very next fret to the fret you're fretting (what a mouthful). In other words, if you're fretting the 1st fret, tap on the 2nd fret and look at the gap between the string and the 2nd fret. Rinse, repeat.

Without a fret rocker on hand this is the most handy way of checking for leveling irregularities. Note that you're looking for extremely minute discrepancies, fraction of a mm. It is noticeable if you pay enough attention though.

If you have high frets, lower tension of the string and pull it away from the fret. Find a rigid piece of plastic with a flat side, maybe a handle of a screwdriver or something like that. Make sure it's nice and rigid. Put it flat bottom on the fret. Put the neck on your leg right at the bottom of the fret. Make very very very sure that the strings are away because you can very easily dent the fret and if the dent is even slightly deep you're a bit screwed. Hit the rigid plastic piece with a hammer, don't be too shy, but definitely don't go crazy hard either, give it a healthy tap. Then re-check the fret via the method described above. You might need to give it a few taps. But don't hit too too hard.

But ideally you need a good fret rocker. You'll be able to instantly check not just for leveling discrepancies but also for lifted frets and you'll be able to diagnose frets that spring back (which means they need to be glued). If the frets are lifting and you can't be bothered to glue them, if the level difference between the adjacent frets is tiny and the fret isn't lifting like crazy, you can just file it down a tiny bit, then polish. If you only file a little bit there's not much of a need to re-crown, so it's an easy DIY job with just some basic sandpaper and something to wrap it around (try a battery).

Thanks. I checked as you described, looking at the gap between string and following fret, when fretting the fret before it. Indeed a mouthful! ;P I think I notice a very slight decrease in the gap from fret 9 and on. The gaps seem very consistent from there on though. So safe to conclude the frets are leveled and it's related to the neck bow?

Now I'm getting conflicting advice to either add relief or make it straighter.... Is it plausible to think my neck is angled in such a way that slight relief does not raise the fret 1 position relative to the bridge, but the concave dips slightly below the bridge level? I could imagine that this would choke off notes.

 

[nickgray]

So safe to conclude the frets are leveled and it's related to the neck bow?

Well, no, it's only as good as the measurement error, which in your case, since you didn't use a fret rocker, is not that great.

Fret rocker is also only good for consecutive frets. You might have a small hump somewhere that just ever so slightly offsets the relief and introduces more buzz than expected, you need a long straight edge to check this.

It could also be due to shit fret crowns or maybe the saddle's buzzing or maybe something else is buzzing (a resonance). It's really hard to tell, I'm just assuming you know what you're talking about and it's indeed the fret choking sound.

So if it is choking, it's the frets. Or the setup, of course.

Now I'm getting conflicting advice to either add relief or make it straighter

What relief does is starting from the nut and up until the heel, every next fret is going to be ever so slightly lower than the previous one. Ideally, fret are leveled in such a way that this trend continues for the rest of the neck, it's called a fallaway.

As for advice - just play around with relief, it's not like you have a ton of options here. Keep adding relief until it feels like it's too much, and that's it, that's the max amount of relief you can introduce.

I also feel obligated to say that fret buzz is not only normal, it can be desirable (bassists seem to know about this, but guitarists are deathly scared of buzz). Your only focus should be the recorded sound. How it sounds unplugged is entirely irrelevant. Likewise, when you're playing you're very likely hearing a mix of the acoustic and amped guitar tones unless you're playing at a really high volume, so the buzz from the unplugged guitar will blend in.

 

[ZeroS1gnol]

I'm not scared of a little bit of buzz, but I hear it clearly in my amped sound. I recorded a little clip, where you can hear a dampened overtone right after the initial pick attack on some notes. It doesn't ring out evenly.

 

[mastapimp]

Is this one of the RG8's with a locking nut and string retainer? I've had an issue with one on of my Charvels after swapping out the floyd hardware that had a similar sounding buzz. Turns out the retainer wasn't low enough and the break angle of the strings wasn't right for the nut. Lowering the string retainer fixed the issue.

 

[ZeroS1gnol]

Nope, this is just the model. RG8. So just a regular ol' hardtail...