Fot those that use IRs..

Discussion in 'Gear & Equipment' started by Spinedriver, May 22, 2020.

Where in the signal chain do you put your ir loader ?

  1. Right after the amp, before mod/delay/verb

    13 vote(s)
    56.5%
  2. The very end of the chain & then into di/power amp/frfr.

    10 vote(s)
    43.5%
  1. Spinedriver

    Spinedriver SS.org Regular

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    It may seem likea dumb question/poll but I was just curious as to how people put them in their signal chain. Logically, one would think that if they were replicating a 'real world' rig, the ir loader (vst/pedal/effect block) would be at the very end because that's where the sound comes from an actual rig. In other setups though, I've seen people have their ir loader just after the amp and before any mod/delay/reverb effects.

    Personally, I have all of my pedals running into a Two Notes CAB M that goes into my pc interface but I was wondering if there's a huge difference one way or the other.
     
  2. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    Whatever works for the sound you're going for. One of the advantages of using modeling gear and load boxes/IR loaders is having pretty much no physical limitations as far as signal chain ordering. Try both.
     
  3. budda

    budda Guiterrorizer Contributor

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    I have a cab block, and an IR loader block, so now I'm wondering :lol:.

    I've been running effects-amp-cab-effects-output.

    Tomorrow I'll try one with the cab block at the end of the chain just to compare.
     
  4. TheWarAgainstTime

    TheWarAgainstTime "TWAT" for short

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    I run the IR right after the amp. I normally set up my patches in my Axe FX with a single amp and a dual cab block, but with both cabs panned in the middle. That way any stereo spread I get is from the delays, reverbs, etc. that come after it and my dry signal is always present in the center
     
  5. broangiel

    broangiel SS.org Regular

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    On my Axe, I run Amp -> Gate (sidechained to instrument input) -> IR for high gain. The gate may not be needed for lower gain stuff.
     
  6. Spinedriver

    Spinedriver SS.org Regular

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    I know 'traditionally', in mfx processors, they always put the cab right after the amp.
    However, when you think about it, when you hook up a real amp rig, you (normally) put wah/od/etc.. in front of the amp, mod/delay/verb goes in the loop and the amp goes out into the cab. So, to copy the 'modeler' version, you'd put a mic in front of the speaker cab and then that mic would feed into the mod/delay/verb pedals to then go into (?).
    That's kinda why I was asking the question, it would seem obvious that the cab sim would be last before the output but in most 'pre-programmed' signal chains that use cab sims/irs, the delay is usually the last before the output. I see your point though War, the CAB M only has a single 1/4"output, so if you wanted to go 'stereo', you'd have to have to either find something to plug the XLR output into and even then, I don't think it's a 'true' stereo output or buy a second pedal so the stereo outs from the delay pedal can each go into a seperate one.
     
  7. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    I would think of it as it would compare to the real thing:

    Effects first speaks for itself, like plugging into the front of the amp.
    Between the amp sim and IR is comparable to putting something in the fx loop (after your gain, before your speaker).
    After the IR is treating the effect as a sort of post process.

    If I was setting things up to mimic how I record a real amp, I would create the same chain:
    Amp to cab to mic, recorded dry, and almost any effect is done in daw after that.

    I don't like the idea of recording a real amp with effects already in the loop, since you're then committed to that sound (not counting reamping, etc). In an all-digital setup though, this isn't a limitation anymore.
     
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  8. Chebax

    Chebax SS.org Regular

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    If I recall correctly from my college days (and please someone correct me if I'm wrong) from a purely "theoretical" perspective, for most of the effects you'd typically run after the amp (delays, reverb, eq...) it shouldn't make any difference whether you run them before or after the the IR loader.

    I mean it's mathematically equivalent, same as 2*(1+3)=2*1+2*3. So in a digital processor they'll literally sound identical.

    BUT for non-linear effects, such as distortions, you'll get different results putting them before or after the cab.

    I tend not to worry too much about what's the "right way" of doing things and just follow what my ears tell me.
     
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  9. Boofchuck

    Boofchuck SS.org Irregular

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    I was wondering this just this morning actually. To my ears there is not much of a difference and what @Chebax is saying rings true.
     
  10. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    Is it equivalent? Even if you think of an IR as basically an EQ, the before and after still matter. Do you want to filter the result of the effect, or apply the effect to the already-filtered amp?

    Lets say your effect was a delay, but each repeat is pitch shifted higher. If your EQ/IR is setup as a low-pass, then the pitch of the repeats could be landing above the filer. Pre-EQ, this will get filtered out. Post-EQ, it will not.
     
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  11. HeHasTheJazzHands

    HeHasTheJazzHands greg rulz ok

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    I do after the amp. Anything I'd run in the FX loop of a REAL amp, I'd put after the IR loader/cab block in a modeler.
     
  12. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

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    It depends on the result wanted. If you want that studio mixed sound or that actual rig sound. If you wnt the studio sound then set it up like a studio chain. In a studio chain with "real" rigs the gutiars usually aren't recorded with reverbs and that is a mix process not a tracking process etc. Also what @TedEH said.
     
  13. wakjob

    wakjob SS.org Regular

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    I've just been creating Verb/Delay blocks in parallel after the IR's lately...
    Seem more coherent & clear that way. Like a post production technique.
     
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  14. Alex Kenivel

    Alex Kenivel Stunt Guitar

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    For me, it depends on whether or not I'm also running a feed to an actual guitar cabinet as well as a feed to FoH. If I am, I want my post-amp effects going through both outputs so the IR will be last in the chain. I don't hear much of a difference either way placing a linear effect upstream or downstream of other linear effects.
     
  15. Harry

    Harry Doom man of Doom. Contributor

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    Always directly after, just seemed simple and easy enough so I just kept it that way.
     
  16. GoldDragon

    GoldDragon SS.org Regular

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    With real amps, a recording with a delay in the loop sounds different than if you record the amp dry and then add a mono delay in your daw.

    So that argues that placement of an it should matter, but I suspect in a daw, either ordering would sound virtually identical, assuming it player can maintain stereo image.
     
  17. budda

    budda Guiterrorizer Contributor

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    Why would they sound identical? You're either amplifying the repeats, or repeating the amplification in both scenarios. Those will always be two different sounds.
     
  18. Spinedriver

    Spinedriver SS.org Regular

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    In addition to that, not all dealy/verb pedals are 'created equal'. In the sense that some can affect the tone more than others and by putting it after the ir, it could negatively impact the overall tone your trying to achieve. When you are playing with a band, is the sound coming from a speaker cab or from monitors out of a mixing console where effects are being added 'post' speaker cab ?

    Someone had posted above about adding effects 'in post in a recording studio'. The question wasn't so much about recording or 'studio mixing' but in the context of replicating a live rig with vst or mfx units, would it not make sense to put the virtual cab in the same spot in the "effects chain" as it would using a real one.
     
  19. GoldDragon

    GoldDragon SS.org Regular

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    I said I suspect, which means I guess, which means this is left as an exercise for the student to find out. ;)

    An EQ before or after a delay shouldn't matter, so *I suspect* an IR wouldn't either.

    And I said "virtually", which gives some wiggle room. ;)
     
  20. budda

    budda Guiterrorizer Contributor

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    Gotcha.

    Im here to tell let people know that it makes a difference based on how effects work :yesway:.
     
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