Fallout 76

[TedEH]

while working at Telltale Games

Wait, you work in games, but still support this kind of brutal teardown of games?

I mean.... from the inside, you have to be able to see that even if the end result isn't up to certain consumer standards, there's a lot going into these projects. I mean, again, I'm not defending any sort of management or marketing decisions involved but the whole "this isn't up to my standard, therefor it's entirely garbage and everyone involved is a waste of space, and they tried intentionally/knowingly to trick me" kind of criticism is a really unfair projection of otherwise legit criticisms onto people who aren't responsible for them.

I honestly think we're sort of running up against a wall where consumer expectations are getting extremely difficult to meet. I mean, these are insanely complicated bits of software, put together by huge groups of people of differing disciplines, in different places, over a long span of time in a constantly changing and very picky market, while trying to keep up with and manage consumer expectations, etc.

 

[QuantumCybin]

That's why You are enjoying it more than RDR2, because You have to justify wasting 60$ on it.

Yeah, It's a joke.

Fallout 76, I meant.

Also, the 60$ joke I did before was a joke.
But Fallout is a better joke.

C'mon man, let me keep lying to myself

 

[Xaios]

I'm still playing solo in the time that I can (which seems like it hasn't been much lately). I really haven't run into many bugs, not nearly to the degree that other people have. Obviously I know they're still there, but it hasn't hampered my experience personally. I'm also still having a great time.

 

[PunkBillCarson]

Wait, you work in games, but still support this kind of brutal teardown of games?

I mean.... from the inside, you have to be able to see that even if the end result isn't up to certain consumer standards, there's a lot going into these projects. I mean, again, I'm not defending any sort of management or marketing decisions involved but the whole "this isn't up to my standard, therefor it's entirely garbage and everyone involved is a waste of space, and they tried intentionally/knowingly to trick me" kind of criticism is a really unfair projection of otherwise legit criticisms onto people who aren't responsible for them.

I honestly think we're sort of running up against a wall where consumer expectations are getting extremely difficult to meet. I mean, these are insanely complicated bits of software, put together by huge groups of people of differing disciplines, in different places, over a long span of time in a constantly changing and very picky market, while trying to keep up with and manage consumer expectations, etc.

Do we reaaaaally want to go down this rabbit hole again?

 

[TedEH]

I live that rabbit hole, man. Doesn't leave me with much choice. I stand by what I said.

I think if people really care about games as passionately as they claim, they're discussions that need to be had- otherwise we continue to stay in the loop of every major game announcement or release being a big controversy or disappointment, people being mad about business practices, people suing over bugs and unmet expectations, devs getting burned out, games coming out incomplete or full of game-breaking problems, huge day 1-patches, resentment brewing between devs and gamers, etc. These things don't just happen for no reason, or because devs are idiots or evil or trying to do something malicious.

 

[MFB]

I think the problem is us misplacing our anger more than anything; we're not mad at the developers, we're mad at the publishers and shareholders who demand these quick turnaround to announce a product out at *quarterly gaming convention that we don't need* and have it ready to ship by the convenient holiday deadline that's right around the corner; and we as gamers know how that turns out, you end up with shitty unfinished games that people make fun of the animations at best, but the money's already been made, so the cries of outrage become white noise to anyone who doesn't work in PR or didn't take working on the game home with them.

 

[PunkBillCarson]

I think the biggest problem here is not the developers themselves. It's the people making the decisions and the thing that needs to be realized here, especially in the case of Diablo Mobile or whatever it's called and Fallout 76 is that the companies who released or are releasing these games have gotten so damn lazy in comparison. Bethesda used to be an absolute juggernaut for RPG's and now they've sunk as low as coming out and saying "hey, this'll have bugs" instead of pushing the game to a more polished state.

The Internet and the ability to patch have made developers lazy as hell. On a game scale THAT big, yes there will be bugs, but the reaction that has been gleaned from the amount of bugs at launch and their overall general demeanor speaks for itself. There's no reason why anything like that should be happening when Santa Monica, Guerrilla Games, Rockstar, CDPR, and even Ubisoft (the fact that I can even bring Ubisoft into this is laughable and sad) for fuck's sakes are releasing far more polished games at launch with a LOT more going on in them.

It was bad enough that Fallout 76 essentially shits all over everything that made the series great in the first place and if you don't think they did such a terrible job, well now you can buy it for 40 dollars. That's 20 bucks less than it was a couple weeks ago when it released. The price drop alone speaks a thousand words and paints the most vivid picture about the fuck up that Bethesda has put on the fans. I believe I read that 76 has under 30 percent of the players that played Fallout 4.

You're a developer, I'm a consumer. I'm bringing up a problem. Other than telling me and everyone else to stop criticizing developers due to consumers being rightfully upset at this disgraceful jump off a bridge, present an actual solution. All that releasing games in their unfinished state does is send a message. It's that "we don't care about the consumer, give your 60 bucks, we'll do half the job now, half later."

 

[TedEH]

I think the problem is us misplacing our anger more than anything; we're not mad at the developers, we're mad at the publishers and shareholders

I think the biggest problem here is not the developers themselves. It's the people making the decisions

I agree with you guys on these points. I'd also argue that the people making those decisions probably aren't happy to be making those choices either. On some level, the market in it's own right puts pressure on people. Maybe we don't want mobile games, but those need to exist in order to keep the light on sometimes. Maybe we don't want games to be buggy, but we also don't want to wait a decade between releases. We don't want games to get stale, but we don't want games to veer from our expectations based on what's out there already.

You're a developer, I'm a consumer. I'm bringing up a problem. Other than telling me and everyone else to stop criticizing developers due to consumers being rightfully upset at this disgraceful jump off a bridge, present an actual solution. All that releasing games in their unfinished state does is send a message. It's that "we don't care about the consumer, give your 60 bucks, we'll do half the job now, half later."

That's not how I read the situation at all. I don't think at any point the devs are trying to send the message "go jump off a bridge". Nor do I think anyone's motivation is "give us your money, and we'll deliver the minimum we need to get it". There's a lot of miscommunication that goes both ways, I'll give you that.

I'm also not saying "don't criticize". Absolutely do criticize, but let's do it constructively. The video posted earlier in the thread doesn't come across as constructive to me. It's "Bethesda is morally bankrupt, and I'm going to now explain to you why everything they touch is shit". That's not a dialog, it's not constructive, it's just antagonistic.

The LGR review I mentioned before, and the Kotaku review I just read were both negative/critical, but I think they were fair. And they didn't attack anyone in the process, or antagonize the people at the bottom of the chain doing the development work, etc.

 

[PunkBillCarson]

I mean whether or not it's read like that, that's how it feels to the consumer when something is released as unfinished as it is. Of course the consumer has every right to withhold their money, but in this case and other cases, they didn't because there was an air of goodwill there. People had this belief that "I give Bethesda my money, they take care of me. Rough patches, here and there, we'll get through them." This was an inch turned into a giant ass mile. That trust is pretty much gone for the majority of their consumers because they feel betrayed. It would have been one thing if it was a company that no one knew about. Lesson learned, don't spend there again. This was one of the greatest RPG juggernauts of all time. This was an angel whose wings are now burning, sprouting horns out their heads, and sodomizing every paying customer dry till they bled to death, when all they wanted was a nice decent blowjob from a working girl at the Bunny Ranch.

 

[Ordacleaphobia]

Review bombing is an interesting phenomenon. I'm wondering if it sprung up partially in response to the moronic policy some publishers had in which pay was directly tied to metacritic scores for the game.

Wait, what? No way this was a thing. Surely nobody would think this was a good idea?
Please be bullshitting right now.

I think if people really care about games as passionately as they claim, they're discussions that need to be had- otherwise we continue to stay in the loop of every major game announcement or release being a big controversy or disappointment, people being mad about business practices, people suing over bugs and unmet expectations, devs getting burned out, games coming out incomplete or full of game-breaking problems, huge day 1-patches, resentment brewing between devs and gamers, etc. These things don't just happen for no reason, or because devs are idiots or evil or trying to do something malicious.

You know what's funny, is that it seems like people love it when the devs are idiots. Or at least used to. Game breaking bugs were amusing and memorialized. Missingno., the WoW plague, old Bethesda / Rockstar quirks, were all turned into an inside joke that people actually enjoyed. What happened lol.

On a serious front through, I think this whole thing can be squarely blamed on the fact that games are not generally a passion project anymore. Starting around late 7th-gen, games made a very, very visible shift into commercialization. Annual installments, buy our new game. DLC to nickel and dime the customers. Rushed releases to steal hype from their competition, because 'yolo we can patch it later'. Couch co-op dying a very violent, gristly death. Overly sterile graphics, plots, and characters. Everyone shifted from being based around someone's really cool idea, to being based around what would be a great formula to make the most money.

And since people are suckers, we all bought into it, and allowed these corporate mega-titans to exist. Now we get EA, Activision, and Ubisoft running the ship. So now these soulless corporations with bottomless bank accounts have the keys to the castle, they go around buying up all of the smaller studios. Now there's no one to compete. You lose.

Which is why, I mean, it may sound petty but, I'm thrilled to see that big three absolutely tanking this year. Because in my opinion, until they go out of business or radically change the way they operate, the industry will only continue to get worse. Because the problem is that we can have these discussions as often as we want, it literally doesn't matter. They couldn't give a fraction of a fuck about what we think. It's all about what puts dollars in the bank, and so long as people buy the new FIFA every year (spoiler: they will) then why would they ever change? I've been listening to the 'vote with your wallet then' meme since this whole shitshow started and people don't seem to get that that doesn't really matter. Unless a literal majority of the population decides to abstain from EA products because of their deplorable business practices, me effectively giving up my hobby will make no difference. The only people that can defeat them are themselves, and thankfully they seem to be doing a decent job at it as of late.

I mean whether or not it's read like that, that's how it feels to the consumer when something is released as unfinished as it is. Of course the consumer has every right to withhold their money, but in this case and other cases, they didn't because there was an air of goodwill there. People had this belief that "I give Bethesda my money, they take care of me. Rough patches, here and there, we'll get through them." This was an inch turned into a giant ass mile. That trust is pretty much gone for the majority of their consumers because they feel betrayed. It would have been one thing if it was a company that no one knew about. Lesson learned, don't spend there again. This was one of the greatest RPG juggernauts of all time. This was an angel whose wings are now burning, sprouting horns out their heads, and sodomizing every paying customer dry till they bled to death, when all they wanted was a nice decent blowjob from a working girl at the Bunny Ranch.

This is also HUGE, and helps explain what's going on with Blizzard. Of all companies, Blizzard probably had the most consumer goodwill. Ten years ago I would have trusted literally anything Blizzard said. They could have said "Yeah we're going to announce a new game probably like 6 months from now, it'll probably launch within the next couple of years. We don't know what it's about yet. Pre-orders are $80," and I would have been in on that shit. I'd have known it would have been a dope game with killer support at Blizzard quality.

Current-day Blizzard? Not a chance. I wish I never bought Diablo 3. Hearthstone turned into soulless cash grab in record time. I even stopped playing WoW, which...I mean...I've grown up with the Warcraft IP since I was literally 3 years old. Overwatch is probably the one thing they're doing right business-wise; and I wish I enjoyed team shooters enough to get into it. Right around the time I started referring to them in conversation as "Actiblizz" is right around the same time I stopped blindly expecting quality. Which was shortly after the Activision merger. Really makes you think.

Bethesda, DICE, Ubisoft, all used to have a quality reputation and a lot of faith from their customers. Once you burn that bridge, not only is it extremely difficult to get it back, but all of the other flaws with your workflow that nobody ever really stopped to think about are now thrust into the light, which is what's happening with Bethesda right now.

--
I hate to say it because I really do love this medium, and I really do want to enjoy video games- I try so hard (and waste so much money) trying to, but I get let down near enough every single time in recent years. Nier:Automata, Halo Reach, and Smash are literally the only games I've played since 2010 that I haven't felt disappointed in in some way. That is a sad, sad state of affairs.

 

[TedEH]

Wait, what? No way this was a thing. Surely nobody would think this was a good idea?
Please be bullshitting right now.

Nah, that's real. I've heard stories of bonuses being refused over being 1 point away from required meta-critic scores- actually, pretty sure that one's Bethesda too. I don't know to what extent some of those stories are exaggerated, but they're real on at least some level. I've never been in that spot, but my understanding is that it used to happen a lot.

games are not generally a passion project anymore

On one level I agree, and on another I don't. Realistically, at their current scale, I don't see how how a project can be the passion of a whole team anymore. It's hard enough to get there will 10 people, but 100 or more on a project and you're bound to have some of them on different pages, a handful who don't really care, a bunch who just treat it like any other job. Honestly though - I don't think a game has to be a passion project to be a good product. I've played great games made by people who don't even like games at all. And on big teams, it's less about passion and more about application, unity and consistency of vision, IMO. Maybe those are the things you would call the products of "passion" anyway.

They couldn't give a fraction of a fuck about what we think

I imagine a lot more devs care much more than you think they do. Even the people at the top. Even the people who have to make the hard decisions that nobody likes the result of.

 

[MFB]

I think a better way to say it would be that the business of selling people on "the next BIG thing" has overtaken the original mentality of "I have this story that I want people to literally play an active role in, and if its good - people will buy it, and then tell their friends, and so on. Then maybe we can tell another story that builds off this and who knows where it can go."

 

[Xaios]

This was an angel whose wings are now burning, sprouting horns out their heads, and sodomizing every paying customer dry till they bled to death, when all they wanted was a nice decent blowjob from a working girl at the Bunny Ranch.

To think that they say that people arguing about this game are being hyperbolic.

 

[Ordacleaphobia]

On one level I agree, and on another I don't. Realistically, at their current scale, I don't see how how a project can be the passion of a whole team anymore. It's hard enough to get there will 10 people, but 100 or more on a project and you're bound to have some of them on different pages, a handful who don't really care, a bunch who just treat it like any other job. Honestly though - I don't think a game has to be a passion project to be a good product. I've played great games made by people who don't even like games at all. And on big teams, it's less about passion and more about application, unity and consistency of vision, IMO. Maybe those are the things you would call the products of "passion" anyway.


I imagine a lot more devs care much more than you think they do. Even the people at the top. Even the people who have to make the hard decisions that nobody likes the result of.

I'm totally not talking about the devs, I imagine that it irritates them more than it irritates us.

I agree on the point of scale, but I think that's part of the problem. AAA titles are so grossly overdeveloped, they must have dropped thoroughly into diminishing returns in the time/quality ratio. When I think about it, most of my favorite games were ones made by smaller teams. Good luck convincing a bunch of suits of that, though.

 

[KnightBrolaire]

when even iron pineapple hates on the game, you know it's janky as shit. Just look at some of these bugs/glitches.

 

[PunkBillCarson]

To think that they say that people arguing about this game are being hyperbolic.

Yep, cool.

 

[TedEH]

Good luck convincing a bunch of suits of that, though

There's still a place for that kind of thing though. Games made by huge teams can still be good games, just as games made by one guy can be great. I don't think the scale really determines the outcome, at least not as directly as we might be implying. Look at GTA5 -> That was an enormous team and an enormous budget, and it was very well received from what I understand. Some kinds of games just can't be done with small teams. Saying no to large teams is also saying no to some large/deep games.

 

[TedEH]

there was an air of goodwill there

I'm not sure that there was in this case though. Bethesda already has a reputation for games being kind of janky/buggy - at least at launch, so I don't think there was any expectation from anyone that this was going to be any different. Nor do I think very many people really wanted an online version of the Fallout universe in the first place.

If anything, I almost think there's some of the opposite happening - The wave of criticism is riding on the pre-existing expectation that the game is going to be janky and a bit tone-deaf to their audience. Pretty much anyone I know who has played the game went in with that expectation from the beginning. Lots of games are buggy - but this game's audience is going in looking for those bugs, and primed to share their experience in order to validate their predictions that it wouldn't be a great game. I've not heard a single person go in thinking "yeah, this is gonna be my jam!" just to be disappointed. I think people actually got exactly what they expected.

Also, makes for some great youtube clicks, amirite?

 

[wankerness]

Yeah, Bethesda was notorious for having the buggiest games even before Skyrim launched, if not before Oblivion. I remember even before Skyrim's release tons of people talking about how it will be great but will likely be filled with gamebreaking bugs. The user-created patches to fix oblivion were GIGANTIC and their wiki was loaded with console commands to do things like resurrect NPCs that could be killed/glitch out/vanish and permanently ruin quests, etc. Hence why I played it on PC instead of console

 

[Ordacleaphobia]

There's still a place for that kind of thing though. Games made by huge teams can still be good games, just as games made by one guy can be great. I don't think the scale really determines the outcome, at least not as directly as we might be implying. Look at GTA5 -> That was an enormous team and an enormous budget, and it was very well received from what I understand. Some kinds of games just can't be done with small teams. Saying no to large teams is also saying no to some large/deep games.

True, but I don't think it's unfair to look at trends. Rockstar in particular is one of the few huge studios that still garners a lot of support; you don't usually see people trashing them.
CDPR has a pretty huge staff too I think, and they also have (and earned) a great reputation. It's just like we said earlier, the larger the scale, the easier it is for things to go off the rails.

I'm not sure that there was in this case though. Bethesda already has a reputation for games being kind of janky/buggy - at least at launch, so I don't think there was any expectation from anyone that this was going to be any different. Nor do I think very many people really wanted an online version of the Fallout universe in the first place.

If anything, I almost think there's some of the opposite happening - The wave of criticism is riding on the pre-existing expectation that the game is going to be janky and a bit tone-deaf to their audience. Pretty much anyone I know who has played the game went in with that expectation from the beginning. Lots of games are buggy - but this game's audience is going in looking for those bugs, and primed to share their experience in order to validate their predictions that it wouldn't be a great game. I've not heard a single person go in thinking "yeah, this is gonna be my jam!" just to be disappointed. I think people actually got exactly what they expected.

Also, makes for some great youtube clicks, amirite?

Also technically true, but I disagree on the optics. My perception was always that everyone knew Bethesda's games had technical issues (they did start the 'modders will fix it' meme), but that it was seen more as a fun quirk than as a real issue. I haven't played Fallout 76 so I can't say for certain to what degree these issues affect gameplay, but given that it's an MMO, I can easily see there being more than usual. Combined with the scattered opinions this game had pre-launch, I'm not surprised there are some people reaching for anything to beat Bethesda with. I think what we're dealing with is a seed amount of people that went in wanting to hate it like you said, and were very loud about it. Then they gave the opportunity to anybody else that went in hopeful/excited and ended up feeling less than impressed with the game to be loud about it without seeming out of place. Pushing a snowball down a hill.

Like I said I haven't played the game or even watched the trailers because the concept just didn't appeal to me, so I don't really have a dog in this fight.
I do like Bethesda as a studio and the Fallout IP though, so this kind of hurts to watch either way. Hopefully something good comes out of it.