Fake Shredders

Discussion in 'General Music Discussion' started by Spaced Out Ace, Nov 2, 2019.

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  1. GunpointMetal

    GunpointMetal SS.org Regular

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    He also puts synth tracks on almost ALL of the guitar parts that aren't open notes, so there's definitely MIDI augmenting it.
     
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  2. efiltsohg

    efiltsohg SS.org Regular

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    Guitar wank sounds terrible even if it is real, makes the fake stuff that much more sad. Just pointless, non musical vomit flurry of notes
     
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  3. GunpointMetal

    GunpointMetal SS.org Regular

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    While agree with the original intent of the thread, why do musicians (guitarists especially) seem to state preference as absolute fact?
     
  4. Fred the Shred

    Fred the Shred Shrederick

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    It's not just guitarists - I see this from all sorts of people, and it's super typical of a social norm where empathy is typically relegated to a very secondary plane and is replaced by this really exaggerated self importance. This sort of thing is typical of the consumerism paradigm, as self indulgence and elevating oneself above the others are an impressive driving force for purchasing goods.

    It's really nothing new at all - hell, I remember being a teen and this sort of opinion turned fact approach entering conversations of the most varied natures, and it's often done with no malice whatsoever.
     
  5. GunpointMetal

    GunpointMetal SS.org Regular

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    You're probably right. I spend most of time around other musicians and it seems like (for the most part, IME) that other musicians will have strong feelings about something being good or bad, but they leave it at "That sucks, I hate it." and guitarists always take it the next step to "That sucks, I hate it, and you're some sort of *insert ableist slur here* for enjoying that." or "That sucks, I hate it and it has absolutely no value whatsoever."
     
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  6. The906

    The906 lifetime novice Contributor

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    I guess one formula is: good original , bad sequel, bad reboot, good redemption, bad redemption sequel. After 40 years repeat.
     
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  7. Lorcan Ward

    Lorcan Ward 7slinger

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    A bit late to this thread! I saw that the whole "call out guitarists miming to midi" has exploded up on Facebook recently thanks to Fountainhead. Personally I've zero problem with doing what you want on albums as long as it sounds good and you can play it live. The new Rings of Saturn is very fatiguing because of the midi guitars and I haven't been able to finish listening to it.

    On the other hand I find it a bit pathetic when there are guys on instagram miming to midi and 50% recorded guitars as if they are next Jason Becker. It's creating an unrealistic level of guitar playing and tricking people into thinking that level of polish is possible on guitar. To the point those guys are compared to Stephen Taranto and Rick Graham. I get that social media nowadays is exhausting and editing your own Serrena style piece together will get you to the front but its still dishonest.

    It's worth noting that all these guys delete and ban anyone who calls them out so anyone coming along will only see positive comments. Also because of how IG works a big part of their fan base aren't guitar players or musicans so they aren't going to know.

    Listen to the first tapping part. Every note is sampled and then copy pasted together. Thats why people are calling it MIDI because thats what MIDI sounds like when it is triggering samples. That is just an incredibly edited piece of music. Like all of his Berried Alive videos he rarely plays more than a few notes in a row when recording. Its mostly samples he glues together one-by-one. Exhausting but thats what gives him that guitar pro midi sound.

    He was called out a lot recently and didn't really say anything to defend himself. He's clearly an incredible player underneath it so I don't get why he resorts to midi for every video. I'd love to see him play normally and do the Skype interview Fountainhead wanted to do with him.
     
  8. Eptaceros

    Eptaceros Wayfarer

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    Way to willfully ignore the rest of the sentence. You know, the part that was the main point. Subjectivity and objectivity exist in parallel with each other.

    If this is in response to my posts, you're incredibly off the mark with your sweeping generalizations. Having conviction and being passionate about my craft is a symptom of self-exaggeration? Get real. Everything I've said here is as much about listening to music as it is about playing it. It's unreal to me that I'm being labeled as an elitist for defending reality.
     
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  9. mikernaut

    mikernaut pixel pusher

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    So the band Unprocessed was mentioned before and the one IG vid looked questionable with just the guitarist shredding. They seem to have a series of these play through vids. Pretty Djenty stuff but looks like they can play?


    Although I much prefer this song ( although it is a music vid) which leans more towards a Polyphia-type vibe and less screaming.

     
  10. Spaced Out Ace

    Spaced Out Ace 0 0 1 0 0 6 5 0 3\

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    I'm not big on the guys tone, even at 0.75 speed, and don't get why it has had the speed increased anyways. I think we can thank Vinnie Vincent for this with that awful Boyz R Gonna Rock song.
     
  11. GunpointMetal

    GunpointMetal SS.org Regular

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    I think this is actually my biggest problem with a lot of the dudes who fall into this category. They're incredibly talented players as it is, and for some reason they still feel the need to produce music to the point of sounding like shitty guitar pro playback for some reason. Charles Caswell is a killer guitarist, there's no need to pretend to be better than he is. Same with dude from Unprocessed. Obviously an excellent guitar player, and the stuff would be just as good at 115 BPM as it is as 160BPM.
     
  12. Ordacleaphobia

    Ordacleaphobia Shameless Contrarian

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    One thing that a lot of people seem to consistently forget is that music is A R T. Art is infinitely interpretive, and will affect literally every person on the planet differently. That's why when my girlfriend sends me whatever new song she's listening to, I say "It's not for me," rather than "This song sucks." I won't shit on SUNN O))) for sounding like someone left their guitar sitting on top of their amp and took a break, I won't dunk on random plural-titled djent bands for sounding generic, and I won't bash Taylor Swift for writing the same song a dozen times. Everyone involved in every one of those projects created something that they were proud enough of to share with the world, and they all deserve some baseline level of respect.

    Granted, it's definitely a different story when you start to be a dick. Fake playthrough videos, botched live sets and the like aren't cool, because now it isn't about the music, it's about your ego. Roast these guys all you want. I do have a big issue with statements like the bolded bit here, because Lucas can play. Not only that, but he's good natured enough to roll with the joke. I don't like his sound, and I don't like his band, but I respect his ability and his faithfulness to his vision. Statements like that are only true if you yourself turn playing music into some kind of pissing contest. They aren't disrespecting you, 'cheating,' or phoning it in. I will stan The Ghost Inside until the day I fall over, but their music isn't intrinsically any more valuable than Lucas', yours, or whatever schlep I come up with.

    Something something just have fun with it.
     
  13. Eptaceros

    Eptaceros Wayfarer

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    I can see where you're coming from, but I'm not going to walk on eggshells regarding my personal opinion of other peoples' artwork. This is akin to the whole "everyone gets a participation trophy" mentality, and I'm not about it. I want to make it clear that I'm not approaching this from a competitive "pissing contest" lens, either. It's simply a matter of people taking things way too personally, when they really shouldn't. I'm of the belief that when you put something out in the public, you are willingly making yourself vulnerable to all the possible praise and criticism that is to be expected. I've read plenty of criticism regarding my band's music, and I love seeing what people have to say, good or bad. I welcome it.

    Having said that (cue Larry David gif), my original post in this thread has nothing to do with subjective opinions, I'm not sure why people are taking that as such. I'm talking about pure human feel, which is undeniably and objectively real and tangible. And when you're listening to programmed/MIDI guitars, that feel is simply not there. This is not an opinion, it's a fact. One of the big reasons why Defeated Sanity is largely considered a God-tier death metal band is because they record live (essentially) and their music emphasizes the organic play between rhythmic imperfection and calculated insanity.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
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  14. tedtan

    tedtan SS.org Regular

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    Not having a preference for one over the other ≠ a lack of appreciation for the effort, it's simply saying that there is a place for both.
     
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  15. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

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    I think people that can actually play on a high level of technicality albeit fast,slow, experimental etc are in an elite category and are an authority of sorts regarding it, imho, and can feel certain things at a different level too. It's not like someone who works in an art reproduction factory is on the original aritists level (usually). People doing the highly edited/speeding up thing to make themselves look better are possibly better at editing and produciton side of music making and maybe/maybe not so much at guitar playing. I think the problem I have with it is when it's a misrepresentation to the point of lying about having that ability, not admiting when called out on it, deleting posts etc. Just a thought.

    I just listened to one of your albums on YouTube. That's some crazy level man. I really dig it.

    It's because guitarists are the most expressive musicians there are. We ain't no stinking bass player or drummer! :lol:
     
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  16. tedtan

    tedtan SS.org Regular

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    I think you missed his point, namely that the "but" in your sentence negates everything prior to it.


    I agree that there is an obvious difference in sound between the two, but you went on to say that people who don't clearly prefer the more organic vibe were unable to "emotionally process" the music correctly, and there is a big difference between the two.
     
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  17. Eptaceros

    Eptaceros Wayfarer

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    Thank you for putting this concept forward in a succinct manner. I was starting to think I was the only one here. I don't consider myself an elite player (there is always a world's worth left to learn ahead of you) but I'd be an idiot to not openly acknowledge that I've attained a level of guitar playing that can only be accomplished with a decade plus worth of practice. This ties back to when I said there's a reason most musicians will side with Tom G on the matter of importance of human feel in musicianship. This has nothing to do with subjectivity.

    Like I've already said after that post, subjectivity and objectivity do not exist separately. The world is not black and white. Just because I wrote the word "but", doesn't mean that I contradicted myself. I'm pointing out the duality of what we're talking about here.


    Again, as I've said afterwards, "emotion" was a misfire. I don't really know what word to choose here, but I still stand by my point. And it's not a matter of processing music correctly, but about processing music to its fullest potential. Which is what Tom G. touches upon with his facebook posts when he brings up the topic of children/young impressionable people. If this kind of overprocessed metal is what young people identify with as "normal", it's going to lead to some seriously dissonant cognition, and ultimately stifle their fundamental understanding and appreciation of it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
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  18. Ordacleaphobia

    Ordacleaphobia Shameless Contrarian

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    I'm not asking you to. I'm just saying that an album is not without merit or lesser by default because it was recorded in half time / punched in / whatever manner of studio wizardry. Some of my favorite albums were tracked this way. Ironically, I agree with this whole paragraph- my response was predicated on the assessment that you were taking these bands' success personally. Criticism is great. "I thought this measure sucked," or "your tone is sterile as fuck, try letting some dirt back in there," are totally fine in my book. Personally, I just wouldn't consider bashing someone who runs a studio project and doesn't tour because it isn't feasible to play live as criticism; at least not most of what you see posted on line, anyway. Most of that stuff is just personal attack after personal attack. Which to be fair, yeah- if you're putting anything out for the world to see, be prepared for that kind of thing; but that doesn't make it justified imo.

    If said guy pulls a HAARP Machine though, acts like they can walk the walk (when they can't) and tries to cheat their way through the public; again, that's a different story.

    Bro this is 100% an opinion. The Violent Sleep of Reason was my favorite Meshuggah album and a lot of that was probably because of the way it was recorded, but there are absolutely studio tracks that have feel.
     
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  19. tedtan

    tedtan SS.org Regular

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    I agree. I guess my point is that your posts have come across as if you are approaching this as a black and white issue, even if that is not what you intended to convey.


    I'm not sure I agree with this, though.

    People said the same things about Yngwie, Gilbert, Becker, Petrucci, et. al. and what ended up happening is that it raised the bar for modern players, who still have a human feel in their playing (at least until edited to death in a DAW). Perhaps this new editing approach will similarly raise the bar for young players. And the elite players will always have dynamics and feel in their playing; it's part of what makes them elite players.

    I'd say a bigger issue with young players is that most young people I meet these days are much more accustomed to instant gratification than prior generations, so they may not be as willing to put in the time and effort to become elite players given all the distractions they face that do provide the instant gratification they crave.
     
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  20. BIG ND SWEATY

    BIG ND SWEATY Edgy

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    Its not contradictory at all, I was just nerding out about Stephen Taranto with some friends thanks to this thread. All of us were seriously impressed by his skill and compositions but that doesn't mean we can't also be wowed by stuff like Berried Alive(even though none of us like it) or Anup Sastry's solo project because they're still musically interesting and impressive just in a different way. Having programmed guitars or midi songs doesn't take anything away from the actual music for me. There's a separation between the artist and the music that happens with the fake stuff where the end goal is all I care about. I can very easily tell when something is punched in/recorded at half-speed/pre-programmed which is where the separation applies. The same goes for when I listen to a band like Burzum, is Varg a complete shit-heel? Absolutely, but does that affect how the music makes me feel? No, because I'm able to completely separate the music from the artist.

    I know the feeling you're talking about and you're right, emotion isn't the right word and it is hard to put into words but I get the same feeling while listening to the rawest of the raw black metal recorded by some guy in the woods under a full moon as I do when its just a guy in his well lit room pasting in notes to make his song/album. If the music makes me feel something that's all that matters. Its literally all down to the listeners preference, just because you happen to like the more human approach to music doesn't make you or anyone else superior to those that don't and vice versa.
     
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