Fake Shredders

Discussion in 'General Music Discussion' started by Spaced Out Ace, Nov 2, 2019.

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  1. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

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    If a band has 3 guitar tracks on a song, I’m totally ok with them dropping one in the live performance. And like Dime said above, I normally expect a single guitar band to drop the rhythm guitar part during the guitar solo. How bands approach this sort of thing is what makes live shows cool. Ages ago I saw Tom Petty in concert and they did Breakdown. As soon as he started singing, “It’s alright if you love me...” he motioned to the audience, and everyone started singing. Then, he stepped back from the mic, and the whole band just played, but none of them sang. The audience, though, sang the rest of the song, and knew all of the words. It was a super cool experience. And apparently it was done routinely on that tour. I’d never seen that before - where the audience sang the whole thing by themselves. So they made a choice to do that for that particular song, and that made it way cooler than if they had just tried to reproduce the album version. I’ve seen loads of shows where the band altered stuff from the album because they thought it would work cool live, and most of the time it makes the experience well worth going to see.

    Edit: I found a clip of Petty doing Breakdown. This is waaaaaay before I saw them, but they did some of it here. You can tell it would be pretty cool to be at the show.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
  2. dreamspace

    dreamspace SS.org Regular

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    Also, one relatively easy way to make your guitar sound a lot tighter / impressive is to lay some other instrument over it.

    This is obviously not cheating, and has been going on since the birth of music - but having a sequenced synth lead (or whatever) layered with your own, masks sloppy playing pretty decently.
     
  3. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    My opinion, since zero people care:

    As a band, I want my live shows to be as ENGAGING as possible. I believe backing tracks limit engagement, therefore, I try to avoid them. But there can be exceptions. For example, with my bird band, I have a robot drummer. It's part of the schtick. Obviously, no one with an iota of attention to the show thinks there is a live human drummer when a pile of wires and servos are connected to the drum set, especially when the thing stops working mid-set.

    I don't think anyone using a backing track is committing a sin against the rock gods, but it's not ideal.

    For example, Rings of Saturn, per the video referenced in the Dines/Mann feud... Who wouldn't think it totally awesome to see and hear two tight super fast sweep harmony parts performed live? What about the main part with just one harmony? If you answered "That's lame," see me after class! :lol: To me, the backing track there isn't necessary, and obviously, quite a few people thought it made the entire performance sound fake. I have further questions about Lucas's explanation that make zero sense, but assuming that's all there is to it, in hindsight, I think you have the perfect case to NOT use a backing track in that sort of situation.

    If you don't have a drummer or bass player, I'd honestly rather see a creative idea around that than a backing track, but maybe I'm in the minority.

    Things like intros with orchestral parts or sound clips of effects or whatever, maybe add something, but again, I don't personally use them.
     
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  4. p0ke

    p0ke 7-string guitard

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    [QUOTE="bostjan, post: 5078045, member:
    If you don't have a drummer or bass player, I'd honestly rather see a creative idea around that than a backing track, but maybe I'm in the minority.
    [/QUOTE]

    I agree with you, at least! I mean, it might be fine for some one-off show or something but in the long term, I'd acquire actual players...
     
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  5. op1e

    op1e Spirit Taker

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    I don't care what bands are running off their Macbook if it's not egregious. It's hard enough to get people to care about anything or get to shows. Make things as awesome as you can.
    But on a sidebar; if you're gonna run harmonies to leads or whatever maybe do it as a synth so people don't start this whole debacle topic mess again. Just an idea.
     
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  6. jaxadam

    jaxadam SS.org Regular

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  7. op1e

    op1e Spirit Taker

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    It's real, he just had a harmony track to go along his arpeggio part to spice it up. The misunderstanding is where the person filming wasn't hearing stage volume cause they go FOH and then were hearing his monitor, which was playing the backing part.
     
  8. jaxadam

    jaxadam SS.org Regular

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    Got it. I was getting ready to be a much better guitarist there for a minute...
     
  9. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Isn't it interesting, though, that you can't hear Lucas's guitar at all, until the next section of the song? You can also hear the vocals and other instruments just fine during the next section.
    But not to call him out, because I don't really care either way about the backing track or whatever, but I do get offended when people bullshit me, and the explanation he gave about FOH speakers and stage monitors was bullshit.
     
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  10. Lorcan Ward

    Lorcan Ward 7slinger

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    Yes and no.

    What we hear isn’t him playing, it’s a backing track of midi guitar he plays over. It comes across as miming but he made a video showing that his guitar was inaudible in that clip.

    I was thinking that too. A lot of things don’t ad up and he doesn’t answer why a duel guitar part played by both players has an additional backing guitar track. There’s no need for it for many reasons.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
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  11. Cynicanal

    Cynicanal SS.org Regular

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    Replying to old posts here, but I've been a bit confused by RoS's mention here; I remember when they first broke big, there was a huge "scandal" about the fact that they couldn't really play their parts at full speed, and they just faked the whole thing by playing at half-speed. What the hell has changed that they're suddenly "legit"?

    (Also, huge "lol" at piping in a guitar harmony recorded in a studio and claiming your live performance is real. What a gigantic load of bullshit. You didn't play that live, stop pretending that you're not faking it.)
     
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  12. aesthyrian

    aesthyrian SS.org Regular

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    I just remember ages ago Misha said something along the lines that if their macbook got stolen or the hard drive failed or whatever. then they wouldn't be able to play their set live.

    I don't know how you can say that and not realize the problem.

    These days we just watch bands play along to their own CD live. Same tempo, same samples, it's not even a live performance. It's so automated and clinical, people don't even click on their own effects or channel changes. It's really sad honestly, and may be one of the reasons I don't care to devote my time and energy to see bands live when it's just the exact show as every other night of the tour. Nothing special, no surprises, no human input.. just boring ass perfection which I already own as an mp3. So why see a live show? You can literally download a live show since its the same as the CD.

    You don't need any of this, Dream Theater used samples, and played music much more complicated than any of these bands and they never used a click track when Portnoy was in the band. The difference is DT are musicians, not bedroom guitarist looking for every shortcut possible to get that internet cred. DT put in the time together.. that's such a lost concept. Everyone who plays

    I just think it's fucking lazy, and offensive to the audience. But I know I'm a large minority, unfortunately.

    Live music is pretty much dead as far as metal goes. Kinda ironic how similar it is to huge pop acts, where everything is backing tracks because perfection is the goal, not performance.

    R.I.P.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
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  13. gnoll

    gnoll SS.org Regular

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    Yeah, I can't believe people are okay with paying to see these "live" shows.
     
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  14. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

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    A live concert is different than a live performance/show. A concert is a musical performance/show simultaneously, but a live performance/show doesn't have to be a concert. When a band just says "live" or "performance" then it's not necessarily a concert. If a band says "live in concert" than I wonder if they are really aware what they are advertising. I wonder if there's any legal impications about misrepresentation if they say "live in concert" and actually put on a "performance" or "show" of a concert, rather than an actual concert. It's all definitions of word play.
     
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  15. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Key word, though, is "live", not "concert".
     
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  16. c7spheres

    c7spheres GuitArtist

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    Yeah, but if you see "live performance" it doesn't mean the music is being played live, only the performance is at lest live. It could mean something akin to a "play" of a concert, "concert" is defined as a musical performance, whereas "live performance" just means the performing (including acting in a play or the like) is "live" or in person. It's all word play and gets wierd, but when I google all the different definitions it makes more sense to me. Based on the definitions it would seem that the words "live" and "concert" must be together to actually define a live musical performance. Wierd. Just a thought.
     
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  17. BIG ND SWEATY

    BIG ND SWEATY Edgy

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    I mean Lucas has released a few videos showing that he can play everything he writes and like I said earlier I've seen them live so I know he's able to actually play. He said he's going to put out another video showing the tricks he uses in the studio. I still don't care about the alleged half-speed playing, I just care about the music. The harmony thing doesn't seem like bullshit to me either but I also don't have the seething hatred for backing tracks like some people in this thread do.

    It also seems weird to me that people would complain about bands not having a huge pedal board for all of their effects. No one wants to lug around all those pedals, especially not a touring musician. I see nothing wrong with that stuff being switched automatically through whatever program does that.
     
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  18. aesthyrian

    aesthyrian SS.org Regular

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    Like I said, lazy. Shit is smaller and lighter now than ever and people are sill using every excuse imaginable to automate everything. That's fine. I'm too lazy to see those sorts of bands live anyway so it all works out, I suppose.
     
  19. Lorcan Ward

    Lorcan Ward 7slinger

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    One common thing is metal bands using laptops and Axe-Fx/kemper etc that automatically change without the need for a pedal board sound really bad the majority of the time. The backing tracks mess up the sound mix and the patches are badly volume balanced, often fail to cut through at all from being to bloated or thin and are sometimes hard panned(which is one of the worst live mixing mistakes you can make). I find the sound is very muddy and I’m struggling to hear certain instruments throughout the show.

    Compared to when I see bands with physical amps and pedal boards. The performance isn’t as tight but the sound is always better. It’s fuller and cuts through more.

    You’d think it would be the opposite but it’s like sound is starting to get worse at gigs with the move towards a digital setup.
     
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  20. Spaced Out Ace

    Spaced Out Ace 0 0 1 0 0 6 5 0 3\

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    I seem to remember -- though I could be wrong and remembering incorrectly -- that I got a lot of shit for saying that holograms and other fraud tactics were detrimental to live performances a year or two ago. So I guess that's what we have to look forward to. Mechanical perfection to the point of boredom, dwindling returns, a total lack of anything out of the ordinary happening, and preprogrammed boredom in a nice, lovely package.
     
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