Fake Shredders

Discussion in 'General Music Discussion' started by Spaced Out Ace, Nov 2, 2019.

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  1. Aumann

    Aumann SS.org Regular

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    Yeah, that especially. I see that a lot of guitar players nowadays treat it more like a sport rather than an art. And its fine if they do, i just don't think it's worth fighting over.

    i'd prefer if we treat guitar like art again and look at creativity before anything else :D
     
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  2. GunpointMetal

    GunpointMetal SS.org Regular

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    I agree, but you wouldn't want someone taking pictures with their iPhone, running it through a watercolor filter, then selling prints and telling everyone they painted the original, right? That's essentially what the whole thread is about, but with music.
     
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  3. Aumann

    Aumann SS.org Regular

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    Which i agree with and that sentence said nothing about, i don't really get the quote here :p
     
  4. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    I'm not sure I follow, but if your conclusion is "faking it but being honest about it is still going to get a backlash, so just don't fake it," then I agree.

    If your conclusion is "let's all just shut up about this, who cares if they're recording solos at half time and miming to them at tempo," then I strongly disagree. At some point whether something is real or fake DOES matter, and if you're recording at half speed, comping together a DI, and then speeding it up "but of course I could record it at speed if I wanted to, I just do this for the production and sound, man," then the playing is still complete bullshit.

    Let's be honest, guys who get into "shred" care VERY much about the ability to perform a part. If we're going to throw that out the window, we may as well all burn our guitars and start focusing on MIDI programming.
     
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  5. Frostbite

    Frostbite Periphery Shill

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    I'll be honest, this is pretty comprehensive
     
  6. HungryGuitarStudent

    HungryGuitarStudent SS.org Regular

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    FYI, if you guys want to partake in an interesting/depressing discussion, Troy Grady (Cracking the Code) and some of his followers are arguing that some of Stephen Taranto's IG videos are fake (on the cracking the code forums).

    Until now, IMHO their line of argumentation is pretty weak.

    Levi Clay just adressed Taranto in his live AMA about Lucas Mann. He doesn’t see anything wrong about his videos and thinks he’s legit. I guess Troy is being honest but needs to get out more.

    Props to Lucas Mann for trying to address this. As for his line of argumentation, I'll need to watch the whole video.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
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  7. Jonathan20022

    Jonathan20022 Engineer

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    I'd say a little bit of both? Manuel can play so why did he bother? Faking still requires like dozens of takes to do properly, and recording a video well synced enough between making your vibrato look like how it sounds and all the other nuances is probably harder than perfecting the real music you're trying to play IMO.

    But at the same time, what benefit is there in saying "Hey I mimed in this video to my audio track/Guitar audio was recorded note for note/half speed". There's none dude, it's probably more backlash than just doubling down or ignoring the criticism objectively. If it was truly the opposite then I could see your point, but it's really not how the world works.

    But yeah personally, I think all musicians mentioned so far can play guitar to some degree, and of course they'd be better off just performing their music in true honest fashion.
     
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  8. Indigenous

    Indigenous Indigenous

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    I'l be the first to admit I totally thought he was miming in the video that was posted earlier, but he categorically debunks pretty much every argument out there. It's hard to argue with him playing that lick in real time plus the audio recordings of their live shows, and he was pretty nice about the whole thing too. I think the big takeaway from this is that I need to practice more.
     
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  9. Jonathan20022

    Jonathan20022 Engineer

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    Good on Lucas for going in depth like that to actually start a discussion, thats how you actually go about doing that. And of course another big Youtuber takes advantage of their "buddies" just for clickbait huge surprise there :lol:

    If Jared was such good buddies with Lucas of all the people he called out he should have just recorded some kind of interview where they talked about it instead of throwing him and several others he doesn't know into the video as clear clickbait. But the damage is done, and barely anyone will see the response and far more people have negative opinions of all names mentioned.
     
  10. Lord Voldemort

    Lord Voldemort SS.org Regular

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    Initially I'm a little saddened that he's blown an endorsement deal, and it does seem like he can at least play his parts well enough to play on stage with reasonable accuracy. Even after that video, though, I do suspect some fuckery afoot. The allusion of 'studio techniques' and bringing out backing tracks live combined with the packing and selling virtuosic ability leave me a bit uneasy. I am not familiar with RoS, like at all, never heard them, so I don't know how they promote themselves or advertise, whatever, so I'm not necessarily referring to them unless they coincidentally apply.

    I think it's crucial that people stop acting like the athletic ability of guitar playing is not competitive, and exists for the sake of art, because it's an objective fact that people cruise Instagram/YouTube/etc looking for incredible guitar playing. When you package up a 45 second clip of yourself miming over a studio recorded shred acrobatics, acquire a fanbase almost exclusively from doing this and then can't even play the parts...that shit don't make no sense. People are following certain guitarists because they are capable of the extraordinary-that is the art.

    There's nothing wrong with mimed playthroughs or videos though, at all. I just did one the other day. But it's when people mime shit they can't bust out with reasonable accuracy and then say it's about the art where it's like...the art itself via this medium is 90% the imagery and concept that you can do that.

    People act like it don't be what it be, but it do.
     
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  11. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

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    :lol: My thought, too! In fact, I right after watching his video I went on UG and got the tab for that long run so I could practice it. I’ve seen it a bunch from all of this talk of fakery, so I may as well practice it!
     
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  12. Necropitated

    Necropitated SS.org Regular

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    Edit: Deleted first part of post for my own sanity. In short, I think Lucas' video is purposely misleading but people will probably tell me to eat shit or anything, so yeah.

    But here's something else, not for the "fakers" (How I hate that word) but for the listeners and players that might feel inadequate after comparing themselves to that kind of not real playing. TIMING. I feel people should transcribe more and not just rely on tab, so they hear how a real guitar sounds like, especially when slowed down, which helps when transcribing. So what about the timing: no human will be 100% on the grid. EVER. And that's what happens with faked recordings. They have perfect timing. Try it out. Get your favourite records and slow them down to 50% and listen if it has perfect timing. That for me is the biggest takeaway if someone uses helping techniques in the studio, which by the way is totally fine. This has been a thing in studio for years now. What irks me is that people just don't want to admit that they used it, at least in the studio. For the timing: transcribe a solo by Ron Jarzombek or Jeff Loomis and listen closely. They are not on the grid. They have some sloppiness and timing issues too. (only noticable when slowed down of course)
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019
  13. BIG ND SWEATY

    BIG ND SWEATY Edgy

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    What seems misleading about it? Everything he said is believable and more than likely true. I've seen him play live so I know he can handle all the riffs he writes even though he uses a bit of studio trickery to get an inhuman sound on record, which is the aesthetic of RoS in the first place.
     
  14. Charlie Foxtrot 3rd

    Charlie Foxtrot 3rd Seven strings, Zero skill

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    It’s not like this is Richard Benson we’re talking about.
     
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  15. Necropitated

    Necropitated SS.org Regular

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    Exactly that, the inhuman Sound. This is my opinion but with that phone/camera audio one could argue that he tries to hide the fact that he doesn't have that sound. And not everyone knows that and that's the big Problem of that controversy. You might be educated and intelligent enough to know the difference between studio and live sound but not everyone is and that's why I think it's misleading. Also the thing about the fret Wrap was weird, because as far as I Understand, Levis argument about His live Video was not that he didn't play the notes but that he had tapped and played legato notes that Had pick Attack Sound.
    And I'm not saying Lucas can't Play. He can, it shows in that Video but He doesn't have that sound and frankly, no one has. That's what I find misleading because a lot of people still think you can Sound like that.
     
  16. Chokey Chicken

    Chokey Chicken mouth breather

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    I can respect the video. The guy can obviously play. However, that doesn't change the fact that the newer albums sound like poorly programmed midi guitar. Skill is great and all, but I'm still of the train of thought that good music is more important than how you've gotten that sound. I'll take great sounding midi tracks over sterile mechanical live recordings any day.

    I'd love to have his skills, as if I did I'd be able to write and play so much more than I do. Also worth noting, older RoS albums sound so much better.
     
  17. Lorcan Ward

    Lorcan Ward 7slinger

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    Good he did a video explaining his side of things but he and fans can't be annoyed at people for accusing him of miming when the video was purposely and blatantly misleading.

    His guitar is inaudible - True
    We hear a midi track - True
    What he's playing isn't what we hear - True
    What we hear isn't what he's playing - True

    The video was used as promotion where countless people thought thats what he was playing live. It's a misleading representation of their shows. At least I hope it is and the midi tracks aren't way above the volume of his guitar like that.

    At 08:00 the live clip shows he does play it live so why in the world would you upload a promotional video that looks like you are miming to midi guitar live? Especially when you are already known for miming to midi in your guitar videos already. Some people really don't make life easy for themselves.

    On a side note playing material like that live and with a 9 string guitar is just insane.

    :agreed:

    This is the biggest thing I'm learning from this whole thing. So many people can't tell the difference between sampled midi guitars and a genuine recording. When I first heard Al Mumin was speeding up his tracks I didn't believe it at first but after looking back so many of the songs I've tabbed suddenly made sense. I remember tabbing a solo from a well known death metal player and it went 12h13h15h17 perfectly all on the same string and I couldn't understand how that was possible. In the context of the solo and the speed it was played at not even Shawn lane could have pulled it off. Turned out it was just sampled hammer ons edited together which also explained why the solo was inhumanely perfect to the grid.

    Slowing down older records you can hear all the human nuances, the timing errors, notes having to cut off so they can jump to the next part etc. That said tabbing modern music is so much easier cause everything is surgically perfect. There's so many Loomis solos that you just can't transcribe correctly cause they are played the old fashioned way.
     
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  18. Flappydoodle

    Flappydoodle SS.org Regular

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    Totally agree.

    I think we all know and agree that Jared is a tool. He wants clicks, and he threw his "friend" under the bus for attention with zero hesitation. All while playing the "victim" and saying he's calling out people because it's hurting the kids. LOL.

    You're totally right that using that clip as "promotion" was stupid, if you weren't hearing his guitar being played. He was presumably happy to have people believe he was playing what you heard. So that IS misleading in my book.

    His video gave a reason why that might be the case... but I still think there's something dodgy with it. The "you're hearing stage monitors playing the harmony" simply doesn't sound true to me. Firstly, why would you have only the harmony blasting out from the monitor? That's weird.

    It's also notably NOT the excuse he used while talking to Jared, so it sounds like that excuse was probably created later as a nice way for it to be explained after the fact.

    With all that said, clearly he can play it, and I think the live demonstration and the DI proves it.
     
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  19. NoodleFace

    NoodleFace Delicious Noodles

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    People are all worried kids will be quitting guitar over these impossible videos

    Where's the worry about ol noodleface quitting the guitar when he hears jeff loomis play
     
  20. Choop

    Choop n______n

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    It's possible he just had not noticed that it wasn't his guitar coming through the monitor, if the track coming through that was prerecorded was just a harmony. Afaik he said the only thing not in his own monitor is his guitar. I dunno, the guy can clearly play his own stuff very well, so I dunno what the purpose of miming it could really be. The fact that he isn't picking the descending part of the runs when he is using the wrap probably throws off the listener more than anything.
     
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