Democratic Primary thread

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Drew, Feb 3, 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. GoldDragon

    GoldDragon SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    1,268
    Likes Received:
    389
    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2014
    Location:
    Delaware
    FBI spreadsheet evaluated truth of the steele dossier.
    https://thehill.com/opinion/white-h...-a-stake-through-the-heart-of-steeles-dossier

    The Hill is regarded as centrist.
    https://www.allsides.com/news-source/hill-media-bias

    Innocent until proven guilty. Rule of law. If the FBI with all their resources, an open FISA warrant, and 3 years couldn't corroborate the intelligence one man gathered over several weeks, then there is nothing to it.
     
  2. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

    Messages:
    38,908
    Likes Received:
    32,203
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2008
    Location:
    Racine, WI
    I think there's a difference between wanting the perfect candidate and wanting a candidate that is not marginally better than someone objectively awful.

    Besides, this is more or less rhetorical, as I'm definitely voting for Biden. I just wish we had a better candidate from a party who'd think they'd win by running a ham sandwich because "the other guy is so bad".

    I want them to fight for my vote as if they had to, not just depend on it because they know I really rather not let the other guy win.

    That's one of the reasons engagement is so awful.
     
  3. SpaceDock

    SpaceDock Shred till your dead

    Messages:
    3,620
    Likes Received:
    1,782
    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2009
    Location:
    Windsor, CO

    But isn’t this why it is always turd sandwich vs giant douse? I vote for the candidate that is more aligned with what I believe but it doesn’t mean I am enthusiastic about or going to donate to them. I vote Democrat because I do support the larger vision they have because I believe that is better for society. Joe will get my vote but he was not my first choice. Would I like a more progressive candidate, yes, do I still think this is a choice of lesser evils, yes, there is no amount of research into Joe that will make me enthusiastic about him.

    Concerning Trump, he is just a terrible human and I think Satan in the flesh running on a pro life platform would get Republicans votes. There is a small minority that really like and support Trump. There are tons of Republicans who support him and say they like him but that is just because he won the RNC nomination.

    No one stops being a Raiders fan because they lose a lot of games or becomes a fan of the team that beat the Raiders even though that team was obviously better. We are all just stuck in these teams/tribes without any real progress because we will follow along with our team we were indoctrinated into even when they are losing or doing the wrong things.
     
    LordIronSpatula likes this.
  4. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

    Messages:
    38,908
    Likes Received:
    32,203
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2008
    Location:
    Racine, WI
    But an opinion piece written by a Fox News, and historically very conservative, political commentator John Solomon isn't.

    If a piece needs this stipulation:
    6D2DF86D-1150-45A7-B624-E54D7ACE66D5.jpeg

    Then it's probably worth taking with a grain of salt, vs. rebuttal with direct sources. :2c:
     
    Dineley, JSanta, narad and 2 others like this.
  5. GoldDragon

    GoldDragon SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    1,268
    Likes Received:
    389
    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2014
    Location:
    Delaware
    Here's the thing. Did you see Chuck Todd's blunder a couple days ago where they edited a Barr interview to make it look like Barr didn't care about rule of law? They absolutely twisted Barr's words 180*. People are asking for Chuck to resign.

    Chuck apologized this time, but if you ever watch Meet the Press, its clear they are all raging liberals, with an occasional (brave) republican senator to provide counterpoint. Nowhere on the NBC site is there an asterisk or disclaimer. That doesn't mean its any more credible than the articles I linked.

    While you may feel that this piece is inaccurate, the same might be said for MSM interpretation of events. The article I linked is based off the FBIs evaluation of the truth of the report. I did not read the FBI spreadsheet.

    IMO, Fox is about as far right as MSM (NBC, MSNBC, etc) is left. If you want really far left or right, you look at CNN/HuffPost/PBS and/or Breitbart.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2020
  6. SpaceDock

    SpaceDock Shred till your dead

    Messages:
    3,620
    Likes Received:
    1,782
    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2009
    Location:
    Windsor, CO
    I don’t think it takes an edited interview for it to look like Barr doesn’t care about the rule of law.
     
    xzacx, JSanta, vilk and 2 others like this.
  7. fantom

    fantom Misses his 6 strings

    Messages:
    849
    Likes Received:
    718
    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2009
    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    Fair enough. But I wonder if a candidate is so "awful", why such a large portion of people would support him to his grave. I personally thought Trump was awful 4 years ago and is more awful now. But he appeals to people that want to see someone work against the system. He literally campaigned on that with "drain the swamp".

    And fight for your vote? These people literally spend almost a year traveling the country and even military bases around the world to *maybe* make it to the election. They are putting in a ton of effort. Do you want them to get you a limo and penthouse for the night to have a 5 star meal with them too? Ya, I'm being a bit facetious here... But what do you want someone to do to prove to you that they are fighting for you?

    I'll be honest, Bernie fought like a madman, but he also did it in such a way that he alienated both Republicans and moderate liberals. He was no where near fighting for what I thought would make a good leader in the current situation of this country. To me, he was exactly like Trump but on the opposite side of the fence. We don't need that again.

    Edit: my point is, the more you "fight", the more you alienate potential voters that think you are going too far on a particular issue. There are too many issues to fight on all of them and keep a base. This is how Trump changing his mind every 2 seconds actually works in his favor.
     
  8. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

    Messages:
    38,908
    Likes Received:
    32,203
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2008
    Location:
    Racine, WI
    No, because I don't watch news that's grounded in ratings.

    I tend to stick to AP and Reuters, occasionally Guardian and BBC, and I don't really follow editorials. I'll read them from time to time, but they're opinion pieces.

    Choosing your own biased source because other sources are biased doesn't seem to be the best way to gather the most accurate information. :shrug:
     
    tedtan, JSanta, narad and 2 others like this.
  9. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

    Messages:
    38,908
    Likes Received:
    32,203
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2008
    Location:
    Racine, WI
    Why so defensive over shitty candidates?
     
  10. fantom

    fantom Misses his 6 strings

    Messages:
    849
    Likes Received:
    718
    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2009
    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    It will always be shitty candidates. It was true my entire life. As I got older and worked a stable job, it became more and more clear to me that coordinating people and having a plan that others got behind is far more difficult than anything I will likely achieve in my lifetime. The fact that these people have millions of faithful supporters blows my mind. I cannot fathom how difficult it is to be in their shoes. So maybe, as I've gotten older, I see their position is harder than any individual can comprehend and maybe they are not as shitty as I personally thought in the past. They just work in a really broken system.

    Edit: a music analogy. If Nickelback is such a shitty band, why are they so popular? They achieved something I will never be able to do. So they must know something I don't.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2020
  11. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

    Messages:
    38,908
    Likes Received:
    32,203
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2008
    Location:
    Racine, WI
    When you stop caring who you're voting for does it really matter anymore?

    Listen, I get it, and I'm definitely not saying to not vote for the best of the worst. I fully intend to do so this November.

    But there's nothing wrong with asking for better. Just having Bernie and Warren in the race pushed the centrist candidates further progressive. There can be little victories.
     
  12. Randy

    Randy Tony Lazuto?! Super Moderator

    Messages:
    23,359
    Likes Received:
    10,877
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2006
    Location:
    The Electric City, NY
    My original point still stands. Anecdotally, I know four CLOSE friends of mine that were apolitical previously, went full Bernie-or-bust in 2016 and they've voted in every local and primary election since then. Trump had the same 'getting people off the sidelines' effect, even if it WAS via dog whistling racists, etc.

    I've never heard or seen any indication Joe Biden or Hillary Clinton before him inspired anyone outside the party or outside the political landscape to get involved. Give me one story like that. Even if you have to make it up, tell me.

    My concern after last night's special election is that "turd sandwich vs douche banana" or whatever comparison we're using is NOT as transformational cause or calling as necessary to get the people on the sidelines. Much respect to everyone all around but I'm reading like 20 hours of "Trump sucks, you gotta grow up!" shoot the messenger bullshit or combing over polls rather than substance. :shrug:

    The fact this is such a difficult question to answer directly is HORRIFYING.
     
    SpaceDock likes this.
  13. SpaceDock

    SpaceDock Shred till your dead

    Messages:
    3,620
    Likes Received:
    1,782
    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2009
    Location:
    Windsor, CO
    ^ I don’t know that getting people off the sidelines or firing people up so much that they vote in every election is the right answer. We don’t want racists voting because they love Trump or Bernie Bro’s who are the wokest of them all. I think average people not being so absorbed in politics would help us all. Local politics are great, but I think part of our problem is the obsession with national level politics.
     
  14. Randy

    Randy Tony Lazuto?! Super Moderator

    Messages:
    23,359
    Likes Received:
    10,877
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2006
    Location:
    The Electric City, NY
    So you're saying you'd hang your hat on 100% of 'our people' showing up and 100% of 'their people' showing up, and we win? If we need even 1 vote from a person that's not a 'I vote for every Democrat, ever time' voter, how do we get them? Or we don't need them? Why do we lose elections then? Honestly.
     
  15. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

    Messages:
    38,908
    Likes Received:
    32,203
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2008
    Location:
    Racine, WI
    Hard disagree.

    Folks should care about all levels of politics because it shapes every aspect of our lives, whether we realize it or not, big picture.

    I'm sure everything is fine, which is why eligible voter turnout has been around 50% the last five decades. :lol:
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2020
  16. jaxadam

    jaxadam SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    3,112
    Likes Received:
    2,668
    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    Location:
    Jacksonville, FL
  17. Ralyks

    Ralyks The One Who Knocks Contributor

    Messages:
    5,584
    Likes Received:
    2,193
    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Location:
    Dutchess County, NY
  18. Randy

    Randy Tony Lazuto?! Super Moderator

    Messages:
    23,359
    Likes Received:
    10,877
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2006
    Location:
    The Electric City, NY
    Yeah but how many of them had nice legs?
     
    Dumple Stilzkin and narad like this.
  19. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

    Messages:
    30,806
    Likes Received:
    7,127
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2004
    Location:
    Somerville, MA
    Another editorial piece being treated as hard fact = check.

    "Innocent until proven guilty." That is, in fact, the law of the land... And is the reason Trump is still president. But, "Presumed innocent because guilt could not be proven beyond a reasonable doubt" and "definitely proven innocent" are two RADICALLY different standards of proof. Mueller was not able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the Trump campaign had knowingly worked with Russia. He was able to prove plenty of instances where both sides took actions that primarily benefitted the other, but could not prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that they were the product of some agreement between the two sides. And the, what was it, 13 counts of obstruction of justice that Mueller identified and pointedly stated he could not exonerate Trump of these charges, may have had a little bit to do with that.

    And again - I'm going to state this in bold, because this is the third time I've had to say this. You're not actually participating in a debate here, when your views are questioned you're either just repeating conservative media talking points that got questioned in the first place, or posting links to opinion articles that hold the same views as yours, for the same mistaken reasons.

    I mean, I hope at a minimum now you understand and are willing to admit that the initial approval of the Carter Page wiretap was valid, and that Trump Tower was never wire-tapped, Trump is just claiming validation because a line that had been tapped called Trump Tower.
     
    StevenC and zappatton2 like this.
  20. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

    Messages:
    30,806
    Likes Received:
    7,127
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2004
    Location:
    Somerville, MA
    To be fair, I think we got spoiled with Obama. He wasn't my first choice in 2008, but I got on board pretty quickly because he WAS an exceptional candidate, a hell of a speaker, and he seemed - still does - to have deep convictions that he was true to. He was imperfect, sure, but I was never embarrassed of him.
     
    SpaceDock and Ralyks like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page