Covid 19/Coronavirus

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Ralyks, Feb 27, 2020.

  1. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    Lol @ Thor keeps liking the posts that are clearly making fun of him.

    It's not a political conversation. Viruses and vaccines don't care who you voted for.

    I'm pretty excited for the 5G super-power of not accidentally killing my vulnerable older family members.
     
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  2. possumkiller

    possumkiller Square Dance Caller

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    Umm... Yes it is totally a political conversation. Ted, I know it's hard to see from your high horse up there in the People's Republic of Canada, but in the US, you can tell what political party a person belongs to just by whether they believe in the corona virus or not.
     
  3. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    It's an unfortunate correlation, nothing more than that. The virus still doesn't care who you vote for. Trying to maintain the subject being a political conversation is a step in the wrong direction.

    Or, an alternative take -> if your "political side" of an issue that's killing people is the one that's selfish, paranoid, ignorant of science, willingly puts other people at risk, etc... well, I think it speaks for itself why people lean the other way.
     
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  4. nightflameauto

    nightflameauto SS.org Regular

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    As much as I don't want to get involved with the trololololololols, I just have to say it's frustrating seeing people babble about how mRNA changes our DNA. That's not at all how any of this shit works. mRNA is naturally occurring in every living cell in your body. The difference is that the mRNA vaccines introduce a sequence that is not ordinarily in the body unless you've already caught COVID. These vaccines send mRNA messages to the body's cells to begin producing the anti-bodies that protect/fight off COVID. They're so minimally impactful before the body flushes them that we need two doses of these mRNA vaccines for full effectiveness.

    Now, is there something else that's gonna long term side-effect us into multiple sex organs or whatever it is the fear mongers are proposing? I don't know. But losing your shit over a naturally occurring messenger system the body uses constantly isn't a very scientific place to start. Yes, the vaccines introduce mRNA sequences you don't have yourself unless you catch COVID naturally. Sorry it's so damn scary to some to introduce those mRNA sequences without catching a possibly deadly disease and keeping your fingers crossed you survive it long enough for the naturally occurring mRNA to start producing the anti-bodies that will eventually stop it from ravaging you into oblivion.

    And I have yet to understand how it impacts your freedom to take a free vaccine to prevent yourself from serious illness and possible death, and ALSO protect those more vulnerable than you that have the misfortune of having to tolerate you in their lives.

    Wearing a mask stops you from nothing aside from french kissing every person you see. That's not an impact on your freedom.

    Getting a vaccine takes a few seconds to minutes out of your life twice. It has no impact on your freedom to do whatever other shit you want to do aside from whining about how oppressed you are because you're expected to behave like an adult.

    Granted, in the states being asked to behave like an adult is so the antithesis of the freedom crusaders that I get why that's so upsetting for you. You can't tell a toddler to behave like an adult and expect results. I leave the rest of that thought for those with enough brain cells left in their head after filling it with conspiracy bullshit to sort it out.
     
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  5. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    For what it's worth, you can see the same kinds of things here - you can tell a bunch about a persons world views by how they react to covid. What I've been seeing a lot of lately is people who seem to be wearing masks below their noses sort of defiantly. But it's not the singular point that you're extrapolating from, it's the pattern -> the same person will waltz into a public place like a store and not use the free hand sanitizer, ignore the directional arrows, stand as close to people as possible, lift their mask when they get to the cash when they start talking, etc.

    I really don't get the under-the-nose-mask people. The message of how to wear a mask properly was so prevalent over the last year and a half that it's hard to imagine anyone didn't get the message by now, so it's hard not to read it as trying to be defiant at this point.
     
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  6. nightflameauto

    nightflameauto SS.org Regular

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    Our company health nazi. . . er, um, "personal trainer" is one of those. I asked her about it one day and she literally said she just likes to be able to breathe with a mask on, and after deeper conversation I realized she just never even thought about what it meant to be breathing outside of the mask.

    So yeah, there's probably some defiance on some people's parts. But let's never forget how many people will just do the easy thing without thought because it's easy. That's one consistency among all us humanoid creatures.
     
  7. fantom

    fantom Misses his 6 strings

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    Ironically, you think the state and big pharma is trying some scheme. The reality is: the longer people refuse to get vaccinated, the more CEOs at big companies like Amazon will take in cash and the income gap will widen. Inflation will keep getting worse because stimulus checks have to come from somewhere. And our resource chain and production issues will set America back in the global economy. You are effectively making a choice to risk unprotected members of society, but also screw over a large percentage of the population economically. This is what will make the rich richer. This is what Fox News and The Republican agenda, who are mostly rich already, want. Stupid people filling their wallets.

    But it's ok, you are privileged enough to make your free decisions and home school your kids at the cost of others. Who cares about the people that aren't, amirite? Please, never use a hospital when you get sick. The healthcare workers don't need more work.
     
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  8. narad

    narad Progressive metal and politics

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    I think they just call them moose
     
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  9. diagrammatiks

    diagrammatiks SS.org Regular

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    The best is people that are now all about the lab leaked deadly bio weapon theory.

    ok well fine....

    so is it dangerous or not.
     
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  10. budda

    budda Do not criticize as this Contributor

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    Top tier.
     
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  11. jaxadam

    jaxadam SS.org Regular

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  12. SpaceDock

    SpaceDock Shred till your dead

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    Weird!?? It’s almost like becoming educated turns people off to the right wing bullshit, who woulda thunk it? :cond:
     
  13. nightflameauto

    nightflameauto SS.org Regular

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    I see this going over like a lead balloon.

    Those who have tried to be responsible the entire time, wore a mask until they reached full vaccination status plus two weeks, and tried to avoid contact with others if at all possible are going to recoil being told they need to sack up AGAIN because half or more of their fellow man are fucking selfish cunts.

    And those who haven't done any of that are going to continue to not do any of that making those that tried to be responsible even more likely to say, "Fuck it. I'm done altering my life because the rest of you are too self-centered to take even a tiny bit of responsibility."

    It ain't gonna mean much for me. I still mask everywhere in public but in my cubicle at work and at a sit-down restaurant, which I've only done once a couple weeks ago for the first time since January 2020. So, I'll stop eating out again and do what I've been doing. But those looking for the rage point, I'm pretty sure this will have the potential to trigger both "sides" of the responsibility vs. freedom war.

    I'll say it again. 2021, you're no 2020, but dammit, you're trying.
     
  14. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    I know, it's pretty ridiculous, huh?

    It also misses two key observations - one, that viruses used to kill absolutely huge percentages of the population - smallpox and polio, for example, both of which have been eradicated thanks to vaccination efforts. And two, that in the past diseases used to be relatively geographic in nature - we didn't move around much, so viruses only spread slowly. Smallpox was present in Europe for a long time, long enough that while Europeans never built immunity to it, it was at least no longer a novel virus so they had some resistance, though at the cost of huge numbers of dead Europeans over time. When European explorers made the - at the time, months long and harrowing - journey across the Atlantic and introduced smallpox to Native American populations, they had no limited resistance, to them it was a novel virus, and it absolutely decimated them, hitting them as hard as it used to hit Europe. Which brings us to another hard truth - sure, human beings evolved perfectly well over millennia without vaccines... but what that means in practice is a whole shitload of them got sick and died, and over numerous generations the survivors who were a little better at fighting off a particular virus would pass their genes down and their grandchildren would try to rebuild the decimated populations. In some cases, they didn't, I'm sure, and pockets of humanity would just disappear as the virus burnt itself out. So, you can go the mass death route if you really want to, I suppose... but I'd rather go the vaccination route and not bury all those friends, myself.

    I mean, the suggestion that we'd be better off letting whole swathes of the world just die off, so the survivors would be "more manly" is pretty fucking hilarious, when you get down to it. :lol: Evolution is literally letting things kill us so the survivors who happen to be better adapted to it pass those genes down, and that's a very messy, VERY slow process. It works over a millennia or two, sure, if you don't mind the body count and the fact you, youre children, or your grandchildren's grandchildren's grandchildren's grandchildren won't live nearly long enough to benefit from this evolution. :lol:

    ...which, you have to admit, is a pretty ludicrous reality, since there's plenty of objective evidence that Covid-19 is a real virus. :lol: But if one political party wants to define itself as the one who denies reality... I mean, I guess that's cool...
     
  15. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    Since the image failed to post for some reason last night on that update on the decline in effectiveness to 16% in stopping symptomatic infections in Israeli citizens who were vaccinated in January, I did some more poking and the story is now being reported a bit more widely - here's the Times of Israel:

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...is-only-40-effective-at-halting-transmission/

    Headline rate of 38%, but with major differentiation based on month the vaccine was administered, and based on their ongoing study Israel is moving forward with plans for a booster shot, based on what appears to be about 6 months' worth of protection. There's a link at the bottom of the story to a number of other Israeli experts questioning the findings, but at present this is worth keeping an eye on.
     
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  16. profwoot

    profwoot SS.org Regular

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    It's interesting that ranting about Big Pharma is seen by some as a reason in itself to not get vaccinated, when it's the liberals who've shown any concern about all the issues inherent in letting corporations run society. Plus you've got all these anti-vaxers dying of covid trying desperately to get their hands on any Big Pharma-supplied treatment they can. Their stance is not a principled one. They've simply fallen for propaganda.

    I'm still pissed about the recent approval of the drug supposedly effective in treating alzheimer's. The clinical trials showed no benefit at all, and a tiny-if-any effect on brain plaques that may or may not have anything to do with the actual process by which alzheimer's destroys brain function, but now Biogen will get $56k per year from millions of desperate patients for a drug that we already know doesn't work. Its approval process was almost certainly corrupt, and it wouldn't be the first time. Rant about that, not the free vaccines with the power to save millions of lives.
     
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  17. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    Eh, that's making a LOT of generalizations and glossing over a LOT of data.

    There's a growing body of evidence that tau protein buildup may be the mechanism by which Alzheimer effects patients - it's not settled science, but it's the most promising hypothesis we have. And, what you call a "tiny-if-any" effect is a mean decline of between 30 and 49% in the various periodicity and dose strength groups, and cutting something in half is pretty damned significant, and if long term trials have the effect we think they could, it would be an absolute lifeline to Alzheimer's patients. I don't know if you've ever watched a loved one suffer from Alzheimer's, but we lost my grandmother after about a decade of this, and she didn't recognize me for the last five years of her life. I don't know for sure she consistently recognized my dad by the very end. Long story short, it's a fairly promising drug - it has a sizable effect on what we have pretty good reasons to believe is the cause of Alzheimer's.

    The price is insane, of course, and I hope will fall as we get out of phase 1 B trials and closer to a broad production, but the science is very encouraging.
     
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  18. profwoot

    profwoot SS.org Regular

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    That very desperation is what makes me pissed about it. Alzheimer's is an absolute nightmare, so of course those families will do whatever they can to hold onto hope, even if it means paying obscene prices for marginally effective drugs. I'll defer to your stats, and I do hope it's effective as that. But I recall reading that effects on plaque didn't show up at all in at least one trial. Fingers crossed, I guess.
     
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  19. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    Well, it's been granted approval via the accelerated approval pathway, which means it was fast tracked based on the fact it DOES show strong clinical potential over existing treatments, but also that Biongen must continue to operate a clinical trial given it's accelerated approval and if the benefits fail to materialize the approval can be pulled. Basically, the FDA is saying the benefits outweigh the risks by enough that they think patient quality of life will best be served by rolling the dice here.

    What the cost to patient actually comes out to be I can't say, but I suspect it will be largely covered by insurance - either way, it's pretty eye-watering. But the FDA doesn't stand to benefit financially from the sale of this drug, and the accelerated approval path means they think it's very likely to be a more effective treatment than what we have today (mere symptom management).

    Of course, I have NO clue what a "fair" price for this should be - how much R&D money Biongen has dumped into both this and other potential treatments that didn't pan out, what it costs to produce, etc. $57,000 will buy you a rather nice Tesla, though, so it's a fucking LOT of money.
     
  20. profwoot

    profwoot SS.org Regular

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    I asked a department colleague who studies this stuff and he was pretty animated about it. He reminded me that the scientific committee evaluating the clinical trials all recommended against its approval but they got overruled. He also mentioned that while Tau seems likely to be involved in the disease process that the new drug only targets the beta amyloid plaques, which are far less promising of a target. Shrug.
     
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