Bill Nye vs Ken Ham (Creationist Weirdo)

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by groverj3, Feb 3, 2014.

  1. Edika

    Edika SS.org Regular

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    I can't believe that this is considered a debate in the US. I am not a biologist but I am a physicist. I haven't watched all of the debate but the creationist astronomer didn't mention that he believes the earth is 6000 years old and the universe was created in 6 days. If he did he would discredit all of what he was so snarkily proud he accomplished as an astronomer. A simple biology text book is enough to get you thinking and you don't need to be a phd in genetics to comprehend evolution, unless you don't want to. Paleontological/archaeological findings, fossils, carbon dating, DNA decoding that shows the genetic inheritance we share with other primates or even different species should be enough of scientific evidence to persuade people. Being skeptical is a positive quality that helps in understanding rather than just accepting information. Being provided with overwhelming evidence and choosing to ignore it is having cognitive dissonance.
    A scientific theory, as somebody else mentioned, is not a constant and can be evolved. What people don't understand is that a scientific theory becomes accepted when it is supported by facts, experiments and observations. It is a model that can evolve when there is something else than can provide a better answer or if it can't explain the phenomena observed anymore. A fine example in physics is Newtonian and quantum mechanics. Newtonian mechanics can't explain the molecular and atomic scale well so quantum mechanics was invented and fine tuned. This involved a lot of math, a lot of thought, a lot of experiments to prove or disprove it.
    The argument that if I don't see it I won't believe is laughable at best. In this regard most modern astronomy and astrophysics can be disproved since we don't actually 'see' all the results. Are elements created in the nuclear fusion inside stars? No because we can't actually see it. Do electrons actually exist? No because we can't actually see them and we can only have a probability of their position and speed.
    The main problem with communicating these scientific facts in layman's terms to people not being experts, it means that they have to have a certain basic level of scientific knowledge/understanding, see high school level. Most people I know (that have finished high school) have a level of understanding of grade school. A big part of them have a level of acceptance as a 2 year old. Try communicating logical arguments to these people.
    Honey maybe the best way to catch flies but for my sanity I prefer to not waste honey on flies that is more partial to shit.
     
  2. Necris

    Necris Bonitis.

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  3. USMarine75

    USMarine75 The man who is tired of the anus is tired of life Contributor

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    No.
     
  4. asher

    asher So Did We

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  5. groverj3

    groverj3 Bioinformagician

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    No, (although some may debate this) the consensus is that an organism must at least contain the cellular machinery to allow it to metabolize compounds independent of a host organism. They do straddle the line though, and some say that this definition of "living" is biased toward organisms more like we are familiar with in the animal kingdom.
     
  6. groverj3

    groverj3 Bioinformagician

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    Not the most infuriating thing there, but every time I see someone use an incorrect form of their/they're/there I want to bash my head into a wall.

    Edit: Wrong quote, lol.
     
  7. pink freud

    pink freud SS.org Regular

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    "Molecular to human evolution" ...

    is NOT a thing.

    Biogenesis is not the same as evolution.
     
  8. USMarine75

    USMarine75 The man who is tired of the anus is tired of life Contributor

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    Wait what huh? Whats going on hear?
     
  9. hairychris

    hairychris Hairy Old Bloke

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    :lol:

    ... Yeah. I'm aware that technically they are not, but along with sentience I'm pretty sure that a sliding scale is the best way to look at these sorts of things.
     
  10. feraledge

    feraledge Heard the Good News about Maple Fretboards?

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    Berserker.

    I'm tempted to do a response thing, but I'm too far from a food court to get some of the solid "I think about these things seriously before I write on my magic paper at the mall" photos.
    But I would like a "Are you really more comfortable thinking that we all came from Adam and Eve and thus are the product of compounded incest than dare to think we share a lineage with chimpanzees who share 98.5% of our DNA and have never started nor participated in creating a world economy that oppresses the majority of their populations while demolishing others nor have they created religious beliefs that deemed you bound to eternity in hell for the sake of being born unless they seek 'salvation'?" sign. Or "Regarding the god theory... Where did god come from?"
     
  11. USMarine75

    USMarine75 The man who is tired of the anus is tired of life Contributor

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    Actually sentience isn't considered a characteristic of a living organism. The current paradigm is: replication of their genome, susceptibility to mutations, react to environment, produce their own energy, and excrete metabolic waste. Viruses fulfill only the first two (and debatably the third).

    Viruses are currently classified as obligate, infectious, intracellular parasites. They are closer to prions than bacteria.
     
  12. rockskate4x

    rockskate4x rockskate4x

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    i tried to stay away from this as long as i could... first i coudln't resist stopping and then i couldn't make it past their opening statements... they are both so full of BS. Personally, I feel like there is no need for such a harsh dichotomy. There are holes in the arguments of fundamentalist 7 day creationist short earth theories who work from the assertion that ancient hebrew poetry can be treated like hard history. There are holes in the arguments of naturalist evolutionary theorists who work from the assertion that nature could have made the difficult uphill climb from the most basic to the most complicated living organism without any divine intervention. I think that most viewpoints are valid, if we work from what we can actually observe, and have the humility to admit that we all compensate for that which we cannot explain.
     
  13. asher

    asher So Did We

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    Where are these holes?

    I don't mean to demean - I am curious where you find them.
     
  14. Danukenator

    Danukenator Kane's Bane

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    I'm sorry but this is exactly the kind of thinking Ken Ham is advocating.

    Science never has, and never will, claimed to be perfectly accurate. Falsifiable is at the very foundation of science. Evolution happened, there is not debate among scholars that are qualified to discuss biology (ie. an engineer who studies biomimicry is not a biologist). The process by which evolution has happens is still being investigated and improvements to the existing theories have been made. Advanced organs like the brain and the eye have had excellent documentation of their evolution and easily fit within the framework of an naturalistic development of a species. Tests have shown how evolution can occur and that life can spontaneously arise (which, I digress, is abiogenesis not evolution).

    Christianity however has had approximately 2000 years (not going to split hairs over the start date) to give compelling evidence and their thereabout best foot forwards has been: The Kalam cosmological argument, TAG, the Ontological argument...semantics that defy causality, equivocate and break the rules of logic. There is nothing to be observed from biblical literature as much of it hasn't been first hand accounts.
     
  15. Edika

    Edika SS.org Regular

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  16. rockskate4x

    rockskate4x rockskate4x

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    The biggest hole i can think of (there are others) is the assertion that a genetic mutation in a sexual species can cause any change that lasts sufficient generations to transform some of that species into a thriving different species. It is hard enough for the mutation to be a positive change, or at least non-detrimental. The best genetic engineers do this in the best lab conditions fail at this constantly. Why would it be any easier in nature? A godless evolutionary theory made more sense when we didn't know a damn about genetics, and thought that living cells were more like tiny bags of jello than tiny supercomputer-driven genetic factories.

    The more we know, I think that the more we can objectively say that we don't know crap about the world we live in, and everyone believes something that they can't prove. It's only human, and there is nothing wrong with that.
     
  17. feraledge

    feraledge Heard the Good News about Maple Fretboards?

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    Homo Erectus would be insulted by this statement.
     
  18. asher

    asher So Did We

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    On one point in particular:

    Many times, changes aren't. This is part of the reason a lot of species have gone extinct! But you have to remember that the timescales in question, for most things, are vast by our comprehension, allowing for many, many, many permutations. Change is incremental at best, and we mostly see the trends that emerged, long removed, and I'm sure hardly any of the failures.
     
  19. Cancer

    Cancer Cancer:The Crucifuct

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    Queston: what do say to the person who believes that creationism and evolution can coexist (much like the Newtonian wave/particle duality), and that creationism is the metaphor to the engine of evolution?
     
  20. pink freud

    pink freud SS.org Regular

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    In the end it comes down to two concepts:

    a) The person believes in magic. That is what biblical events are when boiled down to the basics.

    b) There is a non-biblical creator capable of creating an entire universe.

    Both A and B are non-falsifiable and not worth discussion past idle philosophy.

    Falsifiability is the key concept to understanding science.
     

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