Anyone actively Invest?

BornToLooze

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I had to get cashapp because I sold a book at school, so I've been trying stocks on there...so far I'm down a dollar.
 

Drew

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Well the TAM of bitcoin is the entire population of Earth that needs a money that cannot be debased. It's an entirely different world from traditional assets and breaks all of your molds of fundamental/intrinsic value. Those values are determined by the user and how they use the asset.

I'm sorry it's a sore spot that you entire job is negated by a new innovation. What is the future cash flow of the internet? What is the intrinsic value of the network of cell phones used across the world? Etc. Trying to pigeon hole definable value with an intangable asset is a fools errand.
Ok, devil's advocate, why is a currency that can't be debased desirable? Seems like that's a good jumping off point here, before we start talking about transactional frictional costs which are, what, somewhere north of $120 in energy usage to prove out the math supporting individual transactions at the moment?

No one invests in "the internet." Lots of people invest in Facebook, however, which they value based on projections in advertising revenue. Or in Amazon, based on both e-commerce and, quietly the real profit center of the company, AWS and cloud computing revenue. Its's pretty straightforward to, mechanically speaking, do - the tricky part is making more accurate projections about what future earnings will look like than the next guy, and of course then having the market come around and realizer you were right in your investment horizon.

As for my end, we manage fixed income - we're the low risk component of an invesment portfolio and a diversifier. We add value by outperforming our indices over and above the market rate of return, while pulling down overall portfolio risk, which in general is what we've done.
 

JoshuaCamerondLB

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Personally, I am engaged in cryptocurrency. Most of the traders, not necessarily beginners, dream of profitability in the millions of dollars. But in the stock markets, such returns are more of a dream than a reality. At least not in the first years of work. What cannot be said about crypto trading, where such a profit is quite real. Despite the fact that everyone can work in this direction, only a few achieve success. First you need to decide what you will do. If you are going to invest free funds, then you need to have a certain knowledge base and start-up capital. Try to do this with mt trader 5.
 

penguin_316

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Ok, devil's advocate, why is a currency that can't be debased desirable? Seems like that's a good jumping off point here, before we start talking about transactional frictional costs which are, what, somewhere north of $120 in energy usage to prove out the math supporting individual transactions at the moment?

No one invests in "the internet." Lots of people invest in Facebook, however, which they value based on projections in advertising revenue. Or in Amazon, based on both e-commerce and, quietly the real profit center of the company, AWS and cloud computing revenue. Its's pretty straightforward to, mechanically speaking, do - the tricky part is making more accurate projections about what future earnings will look like than the next guy, and of course then having the market come around and realizer you were right in your investment horizon.

As for my end, we manage fixed income - we're the low risk component of an invesment portfolio and a diversifier. We add value by outperforming our indices over and above the market rate of return, while pulling down overall portfolio risk, which in general is what we've done.
First of all, you didn't answer my question. What is the average YOY returns for your clients? I'm sure you didn't post the answer because it's probably less than CPI inflation numbers, and we all know those are comically understated.

Right, you can't invest in the internet, but Bitcoin is like the TCP/IP of the internet and you can "invest" in it. It's not investing through, its just a new form of money monetizing in real time. In other words it's the base layer all other structures will be built upon. Giving birth to the next Google, Facebook, or Amazon. I'm not so sure why it's so difficult to understand.

I get it though, hard to go to work every day knowing that a 99% position in cash and a 1% position in Bitcoin is better returns than you could ever touch.

Fixed income used to be the risk free return, it is now the return free risk. A contract that you are guaranteed to lose purchasing power entering until completion. Anyway, I'm not trying to argue over the internet. If you don't see what's happening, the signal will get so loud in the future you won't be able to ignore it.

Then again, it will be too late then to really catch the wave. Is today the day to invest in Amazon or after the dot com bubble?
 

penguin_316

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Frictional costs? Bitcoin transactions on the second layer cost fractions of a penny and settle instantly. Base layer transactions at absolute peaks ate like $50 a transaction if you want it to clear as fast as possible. Then again you can also send a few billion for maybe a $2 with a lower time priority. Maybe you need to actually look into what Bitcoin entails. You might need different sources than msnbc and fox news.
 

Drew

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First of all, you didn't answer my question. What is the average YOY returns for your clients? I'm sure you didn't post the answer because it's probably less than CPI inflation numbers, and we all know those are comically understated.
I didn't because I'm not going to start spouting off confidential client information on the internet. :lol: But, yes, while we're lagging inflation this year, we've generally both outperformed our strategy indices and the inflation rate, though the latter is complicated of course because investing incurs risk, risk occurs the possibility of losses, and while an appropriately chosen index should respond to the same risk factors in systematically-consistent ways as an investment strategy, the rate of inflation does not.

For example, bitcoin is down 36.8% year to date, and stringing together the monthly CPI headline series then inflation has eroded purchasing power by about 2.3% through 4/30. This means bitcoin has underperformed the inflation rate YTD by 39.1%. Do you consider that an indictment of bitcoin as an investment, as well?

Figures are per Bloomberg, by the way. I don't take Fox or MSNBC seriously either.

Now, while we're at it, you glossed over my question too. So, I'll give you a second.

1) Why is a fixed monetary supply desirable?
2) is bitcoin a currency or an investment?

I'm not even saying don't buy bitcoin, is the funny thing. :lol: I don't think we've hit bottom yet, but when I think we're closer, I wouldn't rule out throwing a grand or two at it too to try to catch a dip. But, absent any sort of valuation framework and attempt to understand what it should be worth, that's not investing, that's speculating. Which is fine and all, but I wouldn't advocate anyone putting a significant allocation of their total wealth into bitcoin. "To the moon!" isn't an investment strategy. It's what you yell when you put it all on black.

I'm also happy to actually discuss the pros and cons of bitcoin with you, but you gotta lay off the constant attempts at personal attacks here if you want me to take anything you have to say seriously. :2c:
 

penguin_316

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It wasn't a personal attack, or a request to disclose confidential info. A simple 6% last year or 8% for the past decade would suffice. It's not a personal attack that financial planners cannot ever come close to the returns of Bitcoin. It's not a personal attack, it's however an eye opening fact.

1. A fixed monetary base is desirable because it cannot be inflated into nothing by a government. When money supply is inflated from thin air, aka minting treasuries by the billions, it degrades your purchasing power over time.

Bitcoin has a max supply of close to 21 million, issued on a fixed schedule. The supply produced in a 2 week period is regulated by a difficulty adjustment, consistently regulating the supply issuance over time. It is infinitely divisible, but the protocol run by the people determines the ruleset. I don't imagine it changing too much over the next several years, anything that would be a negative for the general user will not be adopted. Therefore will remain the same...

Meanwhile, when your grandfather was a kid a Coke (in a glass bottle)was a nickel. That same Coke is now $3.99(in a cheap plastic bottle). Now ask yourself, did the price of the soda go up over time or did the value of the dollar go down significantly over that time period. Just a hint, the dollar continues to devalue over time and will continue to do so.

We have a debt issue in this country, our GDP massively exceeds our debts. We cannot afford for interest rates on treasuries to go up, they must be pushed down to be able to service our debts. In order to create yield curve control, the fed must "print" new treasuries and become the buyer of last resort of their own debt.

The smoke and mirrors game can only go on so long before things start to break. I can go on but you probably didn't read all of this.

TLDR:money printing erodes your purchasing power, enslaving you to a rat race you will never win. As a thought experiment, lets say it takes 10 million to retire comfortably at present day. Imagine saving over the years and at retirement you have the 10 million saved. Meanwhile, purchasing power has eroded to make a comfortable retirement require 50 million.
 

penguin_316

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2. Bitcoin is an emergent monetary system with both a money component and a network component. Both have extreme value in their own right, it solves the Byzantine Generals problem of establishing trust over the internet. You can think of it as an investment, or you can think of it a a new form of money. Either way, as the network expands and the user base continues to grow the value of the network will be determined by its fundamentals.

The max supply is fixed.
The supply schedule is fixed and known.
The demand continues to expand over time.
The only other variable that can respond to this mechanism is the price. AKA Number go up technology.

I think of it as a savings technology, and it's absolutely unmatched over long periods of time(I'm not trying to get rich over night). I am protecting my purchasing power and labor over the long term. If I stay in dollars, stocks, or even worse treasuries, it will be highly unlikely they allow me to keep my purchasing power, let alone exceed it. Please stop giving examples with short term data as it's irrelevant to the discussion.

I sent myself $xx,xxx last month for $1 and change. No one to stop me, and I could have sent it anywhere in the world. Once you experience the stark difference of that, compared to begging your bank to release your own money to you. Filling out forms, and your use of funds explaination...something just clicks.

It's all going to sound like a scam and a bunch of nonsense until you spend the time to learn about it. Throwing a couple grand at it when you think it's a low price won't do much. Changing your entire framework of what money is, will have a profound effect and is a good starting point.

You have to leave your ego behind though, it held me back from diving into it for years as well. Having been in a masters program several years ago, I understand the intense brainwashing of academia. Just follow the numbers.
 

jaxadam

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2. Bitcoin is an emergent monetary system with both a money component and a network component. Both have extreme value in their own right, it solves the Byzantine Generals problem of establishing trust over the internet. You can think of it as an investment, or you can think of it a a new form of money. Either way, as the network expands and the user base continues to grow the value of the network will be determined by its fundamentals.

The max supply is fixed.
The supply schedule is fixed and known.
The demand continues to expand over time.
The only other variable that can respond to this mechanism is the price. AKA Number go up technology.

I think of it as a savings technology, and it's absolutely unmatched over long periods of time(I'm not trying to get rich over night). I am protecting my purchasing power and labor over the long term. If I stay in dollars, stocks, or even worse treasuries, it will be highly unlikely they allow me to keep my purchasing power, let alone exceed it. Please stop giving examples with short term data as it's irrelevant to the discussion.

I sent myself $xx,xxx last month for $1 and change. No one to stop me, and I could have sent it anywhere in the world. Once you experience the stark difference of that, compared to begging your bank to release your own money to you. Filling out forms, and your use of funds explaination...something just clicks.

It's all going to sound like a scam and a bunch of nonsense until you spend the time to learn about it. Throwing a couple grand at it when you think it's a low price won't do much. Changing your entire framework of what money is, will have a profound effect and is a good starting point.

You have to leave your ego behind though, it held me back from diving into it for years as well. Having been in a masters program several years ago, I understand the intense brainwashing of academia. Just follow the numbers.

Our financial advisors are absolutely putting crypto in our portfolios right now, which I have no problem with.
 

tedtan

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Our financial advisors are absolutely putting crypto in our portfolios right now, which I have no problem with.
Yeah, there is no issue investing in crypto, but it shouldn’t be a singular focus; it should be part of a balanced portfolio.
 

jaxadam

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Yeah, there is no issue investing in crypto, but it shouldn’t be a singular focus; it should be part of a balanced portfolio.

One of my buddies who is a financial advisor put it like this: over the past decade, small cap returns were around 10-12%, large cap returns were roughly 12-15%. They are estimating this will drop to below 10% over the next decade. Bitcoin is 200%, so it is something they can’t ignore any longer.

I have some buddies who are heavy into it, and I’ve listened to a few podcasts, and even some of the best speculators out there have teams doing this full time, so it has led me to this conclusion: nothing will beat a lifetime of hard work and saving!
 

Drew

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It wasn't a personal attack, or a request to disclose confidential info. A simple 6% last year or 8% for the past decade would suffice. It's not a personal attack that financial planners cannot ever come close to the returns of Bitcoin. It's not a personal attack, it's however an eye opening fact.
More stuff like "hard to work every day knowing a 99% position in cash and 1% BTC is more returns than you could ever touch" or implying the issue here is maybe I just don't "understand" bitcoin, or that my only issue is that it's a "sore spot that my job has been made irrelevant" like that's the only reason I might not also be all in on bitcoin. Stuff like that makes it really hard to take someone seriously, for one, and from a purely practical point of view, well, if you're trying to convince me to agree with you, it's probably going to have the opposite effect, no?

1. A fixed monetary base is desirable because it cannot be inflated into nothing by a government. When money supply is inflated from thin air, aka minting treasuries by the billions, it degrades your purchasing power over time.

We have a debt issue in this country, our GDP massively exceeds our debts. We cannot afford for interest rates on treasuries to go up, they must be pushed down to be able to service our debts. In order to create yield curve control, the fed must "print" new treasuries and become the buyer of last resort of their own debt.

The smoke and mirrors game can only go on so long before things start to break. I can go on but you probably didn't read all of this.
So, that's a game we've seen play out elsewhere, and often enough to know it doesn't end well. The complicating piece is that the USD is just one currency in the global economy, albeit the one viewed as a global safehaven. That means we have a pretty strong incentive for two closely related reasons not to recklessly do just that - if our central bank indicates that it's willing to debase the currency to pay off however much debt the government wants to issue (and the issue here is debt, not currency - currency devaluation is a byproduct, keep that in mind here) then suddenly global interest in holding dollars, or debt obligations to pay a future stream of dollars, will dry up in a hurry, and investors will start buying debt from other nations in other currencies in a hurry. That will cause the dollar to really tank, which means it'll cost a fuckload more dollars to buy anything imported from overseas, which given current US consumption is quite a lot. This means the Federal Reserve actually has a pretty strong motivation to keep the value of the dollar reasonably stable - a slow, predictable decline over time due to inflation is one thing (and is consistent with every other first world currency in the world, which makes it pretty irrelevant on a relative basis), but a sudden sharp decline would cause a huge increase in prices domestically. And no, that's not what we're experiencing now - the initial wave of inflation may have been stimulus-driven demand shock, but we're coping with two significant supply shocks, in the form of the war in Ukraine significantly curtailing global supply of a number of commodities (oil most prominently), and then rolling Covid shutdowns in China. The dollar as actually been strengthening on a relative basis (as in relative to other world currencies) as the Federal Reserve has begun hiking interest rates while most of the rest of the world has not, increasing the carry on a relative basis.

But, either way, what you're describing, devaluing the currency to artificially shrink the debt burden, is really a risk of running a too-large deficit, more than a currency risk itself. The byproducts of doing that are severe enough for a country running a current account deficit that you don't necessarily need to take the option off the table, to otherwise have great reasons why it would be insane to do.

Incidentally, you got it backwards - out debt just breached 100% of GDP, and while I wouldn't say it "massively" exceeds it, debt is currently larger than GDP. That doesn't mean the interest burden is currently unsustainable - it's not, and we did extend the overall duration of our national debt over the last decade so it'll only rise slowly as shorter bonds run off and we issue longer ones. Even still, with the 10yr at around 2.76% at the moment, we're still well below were it's been for most of the last 60 years.

And yes, I did read all of this. :lol:

But, two comments.

1) I think it's worth thinking about how a finite supply of money behaves in an economy that's constantly growing in real terms. Simplify this radically; if you have an economy with a monetary supply of 100 bitcoin, that produces a single resource and can produce 100 units this year, but through productivity gains can produce 110 units next year, then what you're talking about isn't a stable monetary environment, it's a deflationary one, as prices fall with time. That sounds like a good one, but in a consumption-based economy, this creates incentives to defer consumption, which causes growth to fall. Right now it's easy to forget about this with inflation running hot, but deflation is by far a bigger risk to a consumption based economy (look at Japan) and we spent much of the last ten years worrying about that. Part of the reason the Fed has historically targeted a low but positive inflation rate is slight undershoots are a lot less damaging to an economy when your target is 2% than when it's 0%.

You can think of it as an investment, or you can think of it a a new form of money. Either way, as the network expands and the user base continues to grow the value of the network will be determined by its fundamentals.

The max supply is fixed.
The supply schedule is fixed and known.
The demand continues to expand over time.
The only other variable that can respond to this mechanism is the price. AKA Number go up technology.
It can't be both, though.

If it's a currency, then it needs to be a stable store of value and a easy, liquid, and predictable means of exchange. Money is an intermediary, it's a means of exchange allowing one good to be equated with another, allowing trade to function beyond simple barter of one good for another.

If it's an investment, even if you think I'm being too old school by suggesting to be an investment and not a speculation, then you have to have some expectation of it being worth more, hopefully significantly more, at some point in the future when you want to sell and convert your long-term investment into a short term means of exchange.

Arguing it's both makes no sense - if Bitcoin really were to supplant the dollar, then your return on holding bitcoin, measured in bitcoin, would be zero. It would succeed as a currency, but fail as an investment. If instead Bitcoin would succeed as an investment, then its future value would be unknowable, making it too risky to use for long term transactions. It can't simultaneously be the future default means of exchange and a good investment; that's akin to suggesting people who transact in dollars should invest in dollars.

But, setting all of that aside, why should demand continue to go up over time? Pretty clearly, demand has fallen significantly this year, which means it's at least possible for demand to occasionally fall. If bitcoin was an asset that had a fixed quantity and it was assured demand would increase over time, that could be interesting, but the argument that it does is pretty circular - bitcoin is the currency of the future, so demand will grow because its user base will grow, and its user base will grow because it's the currency of the future? It's success is predicated on its success.

Again, I'm not even saying it's a bad idea to buy bitcoin. I think you just need to be clear about your expectations when you do - it's an extremely volatile asset that's highly sensitive to user confidence because there are no underlying assets supporting it. Look at Terra/Luna - a confidence failure in crypto will absolutely decimate value. If you have a high risk tolerance and believe user confidence will strengthen, it might make sense... but in its current form its too unpredictable to use as a currency, and if it ever were to become stable enough to use as currency, then it wouldn't make much sense to use as an investment.
 

penguin_316

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Our debt to gdp is over 130% currently, I didn't get anything backwards. I'm not trying to argue with someone that brings up events over and over that are within that past year. This is a long term endeavor and the numbers don't lie.

I didn't say you couldn't grasp certain aspects of Bitcoin. It is obvious though that you have alot more to study to understand the expanse/gravity of the situation.

This video has nothing to do with Bitcoin per se, but it is an interesting look into our current monetary problem. It's 15 mins, the audio sucks but the message is there. History repeats, and incentives rule the world. If you don't think the money supply is out of control, you need to study charts of M2 over the past few decades and it will be abundantly clear....sustainable isn't even on the table. Despite the clickbaity title, watch it.

Please don't bring up poorly copy pasta protocols that have no relevance to Bitcoin. There is only Bitcoin in the fact that it has no leader, and is actually decentralized. Everything else is just a money grab from VC firms or founders...this includes Ethereum which is the original shitcoin. A 70% premine handed out to approximately 100 people and replicates our current financial problem. The only difference being who becomes the new 1% overlords.

 
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TedEH

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I feel like the fact that you have to study up and "be on the inside" to "get" bitcoin (and whatever other crypto) should be enough of a red flag in itself. Something that takes this much effort to "get" is never going to catch on enough to replace traditional currencies - especially while it burns so much energy for not much reason, and has other problems like how easy it is to lose all your money (via scams or failing hardware etc). It's too complicated for the layperson. I remain unconvinced that crypto isn't just MLMs for techbros, riding entirely on the techbro sense of superiority and penchant for "cleverness". It would be fantastic to have a level-headed conversation with someone who understands the ins-and-outs of crypto without the "I'm so much smarter than everyone in the room" ego trip attached to it.
 

Drew

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Our debt to gdp is over 130% currently, I didn't get anything backwards. I'm not trying to argue with someone that brings up events over and over that are within that past year. This is a long term endeavor and the numbers don't lie.

I didn't say you couldn't grasp certain aspects of Bitcoin. It is obvious though that you have alot more to study to understand the expanse/gravity of the situation.

This video has nothing to do with Bitcoin per se, but it is an interesting look into our current monetary problem. It's 15 mins, the audio sucks but the message is there. History repeats, and incentives rule the world. If you don't think the money supply is out of control, you need to study charts of M2 over the past few decades and it will be abundantly clear....sustainable isn't even on the table. Despite the clickbaity title, watch it.

Please don't bring up poorly copy pasta protocols that have no relevance to Bitcoin. There is only Bitcoin in the fact that it has no leader, and is actually decentralized. Everything else is just a money grab from VC firms or founders...this includes Ethereum which is the original shitcoin. A 70% premine handed out to approximately 100 people and replicates our current financial problem. The only difference being who becomes the new 1% overlords.


You got it right here, more or less (the most recent date from the FRED database is Q4, where it's 123%), but here:
We have a debt issue in this country, our GDP massively exceeds our debts.
You got it backwards.

What do you think I copied and pasted in that post? :lol:

You also didn't address anything I actually said, while we're at it. If you don't want to discuss this stuff, that's fine, but my read at the moment is your posting here is driven more by ideology than by economics and hard data.

And, if I can steal a few tactics from you, I'd say that I, too, might be turning to ideology rather than data, if I had my net worth fully tied up in an asset class that lost nearly 60% of its value in the last six months, during a period of the exact sort of high monetary inflation that it was supposed to protect against. That's a cheap shot though, so I'd never take that. :)
 

Drew

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I feel like the fact that you have to study up and "be on the inside" to "get" bitcoin (and whatever other crypto) should be enough of a red flag in itself. Something that takes this much effort to "get" is never going to catch on enough to replace traditional currencies - especially while it burns so much energy for not much reason, and has other problems like how easy it is to lose all your money (via scams or failing hardware etc). It's too complicated for the layperson. I remain unconvinced that crypto isn't just MLMs for techbros, riding entirely on the techbro sense of superiority and penchant for "cleverness". It would be fantastic to have a level-headed conversation with someone who understands the ins-and-outs of crypto without the "I'm so much smarter than everyone in the room" ego trip attached to it.
It's the hot new thing, and honestly if you want to speculate on directional price movements, well, it's volatile enough and with little enough fundamental framework that I'd call it speculation more than investment, but small allocations to speculative asset classes can make some sense.

But it can't both be a reliable currency, AND a sensible investment you can make a lot of money from. To be the former it's future value has to be predictable. To be the latter its future value has to be very unpredictable. There's no such thing as a free lunch, as they say, and any argument that it's value will go up forever due to finite supply has to assume demand will go up forever, which any asset class will appreciate under those assumptions. Basically, yeah - if you need to be a "true believer" before something makes sense, well... that's a concern.

For the most part I think technical analysis is bullshit, but enough people (particularly in the crypto space, where there's not much else to go on) rely on it that it can indirectly impact the market via the actions of other traders who do follow it, so at a minimum I'd say we're seeing some real resistance in the mid-29s right now. Whether that's consolidation before another leg down, or consolidation before a recovery, anyone's guess.
 

Crungy

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What do you folks think about this? I don't know anything about him if he's full of hot air or if he's worth paying attention to.



I did some searching and saw this, so maybe he's not worth listening to lol

 

DarrellM5

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I invest heavily and have been pretty successful with it. The first thing I tell people thinking about giving it a shot is to invest in your own financial education. Books, videos and social media can help a lot but look for reputable sources.

Some of my strategies are:
- Never leave free money on the table
- Contribute enough to your 401k to get your company's full match
- If your company offers a stock purchase plan, take advantage of it
- Max out a Roth IRA every year if you can
- Max out your HSA and don't use it. (let it ride for your retirement)
- Diversify (In addition to my 401k, Roth IRA, company stock plan and HSA I invest in precious metals, precious metal mining stocks, uranium mining stocks, real estate and crypto. I also swing trade stocks on a continual basis).

The best advice I ever received regarding investing was to 'learn to take profits'. So many people get into an investment and make incredible gains only to ride it back down again thinking it will recover. I've had friends make 6 digit gains in crypto that are now in negative territory because they never took any profits when they had the opportunity.

My best investments ever were in precious metals and precious metal mining stocks. I bought them in 2006 and sold them in 2012. I made 3x on the metals and 5x on the stocks. This allowed me to pay my house off 25 years early with money left over.

I believe the markets are crashing at the moment. There is a chance of a melt-up or blow-off-top first but this will be the worst crash of our lifetimes. My 401k investments have been moved into stable value funds that won't crash with the markets. Once the crash is over I'll move them back in and catch the long, slow ride back up. In the mean time gold, silver and platinum will make incredible gains. Crypto is going through a low spot in its normal cycle and Bitcoin, along with a few others, will go well beyond previous highs in the next couple years. I plan on accumulating more Bitcoin once it drops under 20k.

Something interesting to note is that the markets haven't gone up since 2008 if you take into account the increase in the money supply (quantitative easing by the Federal Reserve and fiscal stimulus by the government). 80% of the dollars in circulation, digital or paper, were created in the last 2 years.

This is my own personal strategy and shouldn't be considered as investment advice to anyone. I'm not a financial planner or investment advisor.
 

Drew

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What do you folks think about this? I don't know anything about him if he's full of hot air or if he's worth paying attention to.



I did some searching and saw this, so maybe he's not worth listening to lol

I don't think anyone can tell you with confidence where bitcoin is going next.

I guess if you wanted a bull case for bitcoin, a growing consensus of a "crypto winter" where bitcoin is uninvestible for a few quarters to come could be encouraging; whenever everyone's clustered in one direction, the market may be a little prone to having the apple cart tipped over. But, there's certainly been an evaporation of confidence in crypto over the last six months, and crypto is clearly very dependent on confidence, if network effects are critical to its valuation.
 


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