Any solution to double stop bending on floyd rose

devastone

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A couple of things, this "effect" will be the same on a Floyd, PRS, or any other floating trem guitar assuming they have the same gauge of strings and the trem springs have the same spring rate. Heavier trem springs will lessen the effect even if the bridge floats because the spring rate is higher, meaning it will pull back harder for every mm (or pick your favorite unit) you try to stretch it.

FWIW, Vai's Evo has an Ibanez trem stabilizer in it. Not sure how it gets flutters on it, maybe he uses another guitar for flutter-y stuff.

hardware_03.jpg
 

c7spheres

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You can adjust your technique to compensate too... By applying pressure with the side of your hand to the bridge slightly as you bend. Practice for this would be do the double stop bend while applying this technique, and only play the non bent string. This will give you a gauge as to how much pressure to apply. Only takes a small bit of practice to nail it.
I just dont worry about it, personally. Still sounds in tune enough without doing anything about it (shrug)
I'm the same. I don't worry about it. I actually like the out of tune it creates, personally, but in the rare instance I do really want that fighting/beating tension of the doublestop then I will use the right hand pressure technique to compensate. I use all 5 springs at high tension by the way, so even if I bend the 6th string and have an open 7th it only dives by about a 1/4 step anyways, so correcting it takes very little right hand pressure.
 

Spicypickles

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Pretty sure they’ve been said but I just bend the other string with it, and give a bit of vibrato with the bar also, just to make it sexy.
 

Miko Del

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This is a great thread, very good solution ideas here and I learned some things. Most notably using pressure on the trem body or bar itself to hold your tune while bending. I'm embarrassed to say I hadn't thought of that. But there are definitely solutions out there where that is not necessary, as evidenced by Satch in his video.

Here are my own observations:

1) The first answer to the OP's question lumped several different products together. I have found some of them to be markedly different in function and intended use. The OP responded with his decision to go w/a Floyd, saying de-tuning wouldn't be a big deal. But all Floyds are not created equal, as was pointed out when a contributor said "Ibanez does their own version". The new high-end Ibanez guitars w/Edge trems are EXTREMELY sensitive to touch and tension. This makes them marvelously responsive instruments, but double-stop bends are nearly impossible without modification.

What I know so far regarding this particular issue is, most solutions to de-tuning during bends usually involve a trade-off in trem functionality. And if not functionality, definitely FEEL. But that's life. If you tighten the tension and use a hard stop you'll no longer be able to pull up. A long time ago I didn't care about going sharp. My first trem was an original Floyd on a 1985 Jackson RR and I made my own stop from a piece of clothespin, glued it in place, and cranked the s__t out of the springs. The top of my ring finger had a small, slightly black and blue dent for awhile, ha. But double-stop bends were not a problem! F-Fwd to current day, I now have two more guitars w/trems and I do like to "swell" the sound by pulling up gently. I haven't written anything where I need to pull agressively (yet) but I do love how the JS2410 (Ibanez Satriani guitar) Ultralite trem responds to the slightest pull while picking, making everything "shimmer". The whole point of the Ultralite trem is, it's ULTRA-light! It is extremely responsive to nuance movements. I know I will lose some of that if I employ any of these solutions. And the other really important thing is (and someone on this forum may already have mentioned it) SETUP is crucial. Players' reviews span from "I love it, it's great", to "It's OK", right down to "It sucks". Some of that is personal preference and some of it is how professionally it was installed and adjusted.


2) Here's my comment to the YouTube vid "Joe Satriani's live setup revealed"
I noticed @ 9:00 in the video and 9:45 when Joe plays the classic double stop bend (G string up a step makes a min 3rd over B) he doesn't do anything to keep the Floyd from de-tuning. I have the JS2410 guitar, set up to near perfection with .010 strings, 1 add'l shim, neck adjusted, bridge perfectly level... but double-stop bends? Forget it. Unisons are a bit easier to bend both up and make them true, but G over B is impossible to do as Joe does here. I have a magnified screen capture of this vid and Joe isn't compensating in any way. The 2nd string is perfectly straight. He is not applying reverse trem pressure cause he's actually applying bi-directional vibrato during the bend.

3) According to my own internet searches, the Hipshot Tremsetter is more for vintage OEM trems that don't have locking nuts. It does not prevent the trem from de-tuning during bends, according to user input on Hipshot's site.

4) The SuperVee Maglok might do the trick. I have one on order and I'll let you all know. Of course I was disappointed in the contributor who talked about how the magnet failed. But I LOVE the ease of installation and the fact that you do NOT have to alter your spring tention. If it works on the Satch Ultralite trem it will work on anything, cause bending your G up a step on this contraption makes the other strings de-tune HORRIBLY. It's not a subtle thing. I read a review where a player said the Maglok zero-point had a noticeable notch, but since I often play with the trem held in my fingers that might actually be a plus. It takes extra concentration to NOT create trem effects when they are unwanted. The notch actually might be a benefit to me. Chirping will certainly be affected but I don't use it that much. Although I've been heavily into Jennifer lately and I'm starting to hear more chirps in my head!

5) ESP Arming Adjuster - another possibly excellent solution. It involves making the springs a lot tighter, which I can probably live with if I have to. The installation is more complicated than the SuperVee, so I trying the Maglok first. I hear it kills the bird though. No chirps.

6) AFAIK the Ibanez backstop is no longer in production. I find that curious cause Hoshino/Ibanez usually dive headlong into all-things tech, providing any number of options. Isn't playing a double-stop bend a staple of rock solos, at least occasionally?

Lastly just wanted to add, if you're a novice and have no patience/experience with the extensive set-up of a floating whammy, using any kind of backstop and cranking it tighter makes it so much easier to just tune and play.
 

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AndiKravljaca

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I've taught myself to bend the other string as well when doing double stops, or to dig my finger into the frets to make the tone go sharp - I rarely have a problem with double stop bends with a Floyd, but it did take a while to learn. It's basically like being your own Evertune and increasing the string tension to maintain the tuning. As others have said here, you can apply pressure to the bridge as well, but I am too inaccurate to make that sound good.
 

Miko Del

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Hi Andi. Next time you're in a music store, ask to try a '17 or newer era JS24xx guitar. If you can make that work on this trem, you have AMAZING technique!!! And as I mentioned, Joe Satch has SOMETHING in place, don't know, but his axe plays like a freakin' Les Paul stop tailpiece when he bends, LOL
 

Drew

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Hi Andi. Next time you're in a music store, ask to try a '17 or newer era JS24xx guitar. If you can make that work on this trem, you have AMAZING technique!!! And as I mentioned, Joe Satch has SOMETHING in place, don't know, but his axe plays like a freakin' Les Paul stop tailpiece when he bends, LOL
Satriani may be using one of the old Ibanez treb stabilizers, he may be bending both notes in the double stop to keep them ringing out in tune (his bending control really is excellent), or it's possible that he's holding the bar itself and applying vibrato there to stabilize/mask any trem movement.

But yeah, as others have noted, this is a problem common to ALL floating trem designs, there are a few trem stablizers on the market (or trems with built in stabilization) designed to combat the issue that work with various degrees of success, and your options are either uusing something like that, or learning to stabilize the trem with your palm while you bend (I do this) or bend both notes to keep them in tune (which works as long as one of them isn't an open note).

Personally, I have a Tremol-no in most of my guitars, so if I'm playing something where I know I need in-tune compound bends and don't need to use the bar, I can just lock the trem down. And when I don't, I just use some pressure on the bridge to counteract the bend's pulling other strings flat.
 

spudmunkey

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Think about it this way: Imagine the situation is that you are on a balanced see-saw, but you want to also hold your favorite bag of rocks. You're now off balance. To stay balanced, you either need to apply similar pressure to the other side of the see-saw, or but blocks under it so that you don't drop lower when the weight it added. That's it. Those are the only two ways. You either compensate by adding rocks (bending the other strings too, or holding the trem in place with the trem arm or your palm), or you block it with either a fixed block, or some of those mechanical add-ons.
 

Miko Del

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I'm rethinking what I see in the Satch video. Maybe he's not simply adding vibrato to that bend, but also pulling up slightly on the bar, as a few of you have already suggested. If I'm honest, I still don't have the heart to "compromise" the trem feel on either of my Ibanez's by installing a fix for the de-tuning. I think I'm going to have a real shot @ using the trem bar to 'help' the lower string stay in pitch, while also using left-hand technique to complete the equation. For me the MOST important thing is to have the axe go back into perfect tune after whammy gymnastics. And I've already seen a post about how these devices can slightly compromise this. I've been watching some Dann Huff lately and that kind of soulful whammy really appeals to me. These things are perfection from the factory. I'm gonna put my all into a 'technique fix' for this issue before I install anything other than an allen key holder, LOL
 

Drew

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I'm rethinking what I see in the Satch video. Maybe he's not simply adding vibrato to that bend, but also pulling up slightly on the bar, as a few of you have already suggested. If I'm honest, I still don't have the heart to "compromise" the trem feel on either of my Ibanez's by installing a fix for the de-tuning. I think I'm going to have a real shot @ using the trem bar to 'help' the lower string stay in pitch, while also using left-hand technique to complete the equation. For me the MOST important thing is to have the axe go back into perfect tune after whammy gymnastics. And I've already seen a post about how these devices can slightly compromise this. I've been watching some Dann Huff lately and that kind of soulful whammy really appeals to me. These things are perfection from the factory. I'm gonna put my all into a 'technique fix' for this issue before I install anything other than an allen key holder, LOL
Honestly, while I actually don't do a ton of compound bends (something I realized while jamming along to something last night, actually), it really isn't hard to just press on the trem with your palm to counteract the pull as you bend - give it a try. When I'm playing something that DOES involve compound bends, and when I'm not locking my trem beforehand, this is what I do, and it works pretty well.
 

bostjan

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My vote: Just let the other note dive. It sounds fricken cool anyway.

Or, if it annoys you, adjust your technique.
 

Miko Del

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Well here I am again... I also looked into the Tremel-NO. I watched an installation vid. Their website is really good, with FAQ's, and fitment options, cute jokes... but one thing they don't tell you, in case you didn't realize the obvious: you aren't able to set/release this gizmo on the fly. You decide if you want floating trem, dive-only trem, or NO trem... BEFORE you play the song. (Oh well I guess if you leave the back cover off you can get good @ slipping your hand up your axe's arse and loosening/tightening the thing quickly.) After seeing Paul Gilbert switch from slide to no slide in an instant, and Tommy Emmanuel apply/chuck his capo in the space of a 16th note, I guess anything's possible...

But as far as I can determine after inspecting the use and install of the Tremel-NO gadget via the web, one truth does not change with the Tremel-NO: Unless the device is totally LOCKED, it's STILL the trem spring tension which determines whether or not you can bend w/out detuning.

I'm ordering a regular whammy bar for my JS2410. This forum educated me (somewhere, maybe in this thread?) that the Ibanez Edge Ultralight bar can break if you use it like an animal. That bar is $100 to replace. I'd rather crank up my tension, use the ESP Arming Adjuster, and fit a reg bar. Or... glue a piece of clothespin to keep the whammy from moving sharp at all, like I did w/the first Floyd I owned, on my 1985 Jackson RR USA. Bend to my heart's content, dive live an animal, come back to perfect tune. But... fingers were black and blue where the bar was held in between, when I was recording for extended periods. Tension was HIGH, LOL!

There's only one solution I can see that allows for light spring tension, AND no detuning. And that's the MagLok. If the MagLok really allows the vibrato mechanism to come back into tune perfectly after sirius whammy shenanigans - it's a most amazing device.

Sorry for all the 'conjecture', but I haven't been playing hardly at all over the last year, so I still haven't installed / experimented w/these, ferreal.
 

c7spheres

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Well here I am again... I also looked into the Tremel-NO. I watched an installation vid. Their website is really good, with FAQ's, and fitment options, cute jokes... but one thing they don't tell you, in case you didn't realize the obvious: you aren't able to set/release this gizmo on the fly. You decide if you want floating trem, dive-only trem, or NO trem... BEFORE you play the song. (Oh well I guess if you leave the back cover off you can get good @ slipping your hand up your axe's arse and loosening/tightening the thing quickly.) After seeing Paul Gilbert switch from slide to no slide in an instant, and Tommy Emmanuel apply/chuck his capo in the space of a 16th note, I guess anything's possible...

But as far as I can determine after inspecting the use and install of the Tremel-NO gadget via the web, one truth does not change with the Tremel-NO: Unless the device is totally LOCKED, it's STILL the trem spring tension which determines whether or not you can bend w/out detuning.

I'm ordering a regular whammy bar for my JS2410. This forum educated me (somewhere, maybe in this thread?) that the Ibanez Edge Ultralight bar can break if you use it like an animal. That bar is $100 to replace. I'd rather crank up my tension, use the ESP Arming Adjuster, and fit a reg bar. Or... glue a piece of clothespin to keep the whammy from moving sharp at all, like I did w/the first Floyd I owned, on my 1985 Jackson RR USA. Bend to my heart's content, dive live an animal, come back to perfect tune. But... fingers were black and blue where the bar was held in between, when I was recording for extended periods. Tension was HIGH, LOL!

There's only one solution I can see that allows for light spring tension, AND no detuning. And that's the MagLok. If the MagLok really allows the vibrato mechanism to come back into tune perfectly after sirius whammy shenanigans - it's a most amazing device.

Sorry for all the 'conjecture', but I haven't been playing hardly at all over the last year, so I still haven't installed / experimented w/these, ferreal.
Just Fyi, regular Ibanez LoPro bars can break too when using 5 springs. I've broke a couple bars and hardly even use tremolo's and rarely dive, and that's when they break and dent your guitar. Each time it happens it can physically hurt you bad because of released tension. If you dive bomb much I wouldn't recommend high tension because it's actually pretty dangerous. Maybe one of those Red Bishops is stronger? They're hand made so maybe they're steel, which would be way stronger than an Ibanez bar if they are made of steel. Ibanez bars are just made of nickel palted zonc or something like that. I've been eyeing them a long time, those Red Bishops. Maybe somebody knows.
 

trem licking

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Just Fyi, regular Ibanez LoPro bars can break too when using 5 springs. I've broke a couple bars and hardly even use tremolo's and rarely dive, and that's when they break and dent your guitar. Each time it happens it can physically hurt you bad because of released tension. If you dive bomb much I wouldn't recommend high tension because it's actually pretty dangerous. Maybe one of those Red Bishops is stronger? They're hand made so maybe they're steel, which would be way stronger than an Ibanez bar if they are made of steel. Ibanez bars are just made of nickel palted zonc or something like that. I've been eyeing them a long time, those Red Bishops. Maybe somebody knows.
IT'S THE NIGHT OF THE LIVING THREAD! heh... Red Bishop bars are quality. i have one on an 8 string floyd and i abuse the ever living hell out of it. no breaks and stays tight forever. do recommend
 

Humbuck

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Fwiw, my two Magloks are still working great...
 

RevDrucifer

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Just Fyi, regular Ibanez LoPro bars can break too when using 5 springs. I've broke a couple bars and hardly even use tremolo's and rarely dive, and that's when they break and dent your guitar. Each time it happens it can physically hurt you bad because of released tension. If you dive bomb much I wouldn't recommend high tension because it's actually pretty dangerous. Maybe one of those Red Bishops is stronger? They're hand made so maybe they're steel, which would be way stronger than an Ibanez bar if they are made of steel. Ibanez bars are just made of nickel palted zonc or something like that. I've been eyeing them a long time, those Red Bishops. Maybe somebody knows.

Yeah, I’ve broken two bars in my JEM back when I was in high school pretending I was Vai. Each time I put the full weight of the guitar on the bar and pulled it up in the air and they snapped right where they fit in the trem socket, had to push them out from the back.

I‘d be curious to know how many Vai has snapped over the years doing that same thing. Doesn’t seem to hold him back, though!
 


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