"Amp in the room" tone doesn't matter. Or does it?

[SalsaWood]

I do like a few of the guy's videos a lot, but his tone is nothing extreme. He has tons of flavor options with different levels of nuance out there to mess with so I can see how it can get this deep, but I was still rolling my eyes for half this video. It being very socratic is kind of obnoxious.

I don't understand how this is something we think about like we have a lot of choice. You play a venue and typically use their PA, their sound guy running everything, in their room- not much choice. You make a finished recording and it gets played on lord knows what lord knows where by everyone you give it to. If you listen to either too much and get ear fatigue it all sounds shit.

Unless you're actually very good at producing I'm not sure how to even weigh these tones for merit(?) equally at all. I have never seen a metal guitarist able to just mic up his live rig in any way and get the best recording tone, and I can't do it with DI/IR either. We're talking two completely different tones for recording and rooms that aren't competing for relevance or attention. Just use your ears in different situations, it's not that complicated.

 

[narad]

I like the video message overall, but I think he overlooks a few remaining variables that are absolutely crucial to reproducible and comparable live sounds.

Really the only solution is that everyone wears headphones during the show. Dialing in tone for the recorded sound is meaningless if we haven't ruled out the variations caused by the PA speakers themselves. Otherwise there will be all sorts of various phase cancellations from the position of the people and their bodies in the room, as well as the venue's room acoustics. So headphones are a must, but the various drivers in the headphones could vary, so they'd have to be the same model. And they'd also have to be the same model that the artists use when setting up their tone. But also different people have various hearing ability, so everyone should get a hearing test prior to the show to determine their frequency range and which frequencies are most pronounced in their own perception. So once we have everyone at the show listening to the same model of headphones that have been personally calibrated to each individual to match exactly the perception of the artist while they were dialing in their tone (on the same headphones), then finally we can stop listening to the complete steaming pile of garbage of audio that is today's live show.

So thank you, YouTube guy, you've shown us the path to ideal show sound.

 

[Scottosan]

I watched this video and thought it was interesting. He makes a lot of good points, however I have to disagree with his broad statement that amp in the room tones "don't matter."



While I understand his point, it should be mentioned that while the tone in the room doesn't matter to him, it could very well matter to you. Or to someone else. In fact it could be of much greater importance than recorded tones depending on the person and context.

He says the sound in the room "isn't what we hear and isn't what we've ever heard." Not true. If you've ever plugged into a real amp and cab/speaker, or even been in the room where someone else did so, then you've heard an amp in the room. And if that tone inspired you, then it inspired you. The first time I heard a Dual Rectifier live was in a movie theater on an Air Force base where a band was practicing. It sounded amazing and I immediately wanted one of those amps--the tone was inspiring.

Recorded sounds are certainly important to most if not all people, but aren't the only important sounds. Plenty of people don't record. They might be playing alone in their house, with friends in a garage, in a small bar, etc. And while the tones they're using may not exactly replicate some recorded tones they find inspiring, they may approximate those tones well enough to be inspiring enough for the player and/or other people in the area.

So while the video is interesting, entertaining, and actually pretty cool overall, I think it demonstrates a lack of consideration for other perspectives and use cases. Tone in the room might not matter to him. It might not even matter to you. But to say it doesn't matter as a generalization is just plain old incorrect.

For the record, I like this guy's channel a lot. This just stood out to me as narrow-minded.

Internet affirmation doesn't matter. Do what you do and what you like.

 

[Legion]

Ah, I knew that video would stir the pot.

This is something I've been saying for a while now. When we hear our favorite tones on our favorite albums we're hearing them through a mic and preamp and post processing and mastering and all that. No fucking shot you can reproduce all that "in the room."

It's the singular reason I went fully digital (aside from one or two specialized distortion boxes that I plug into my interface).

 

[TedEH]

No fucking shot you can reproduce all that "in the room."

it really depends on what you mean - 'cause I can get pretty close, as far as I care.

I mean, is it going to match up sample-by-sample if you were to record it and compare - of course not. But anyone who has tried to mix something has gone through the exercise of "translating" what they hear to another environment - and if you started your guitar playing journey with amps in rooms instead of digitally, then you've always been doing this mental translation. When you hear a recording, you know it's a recording and you interpret it differently than the room. In the same way that orange and brown are the same colour in different contexts, recorded and room sounds can be compared as the same thing in different contexts.

I actually have a lot of trouble reproducing album sounds digitally - for some reason I struggle playing through IRs in general - they just always feel wrong and squishy and I never figured out why I can't get them to work - but I can get damn close through a cab in a room, even with the same models. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[fudgeman]

Are people over thinking this one a bit? Of course it matters when you're at home playing by yourself. And, of course it doesn't matter when recording or live (unless the gig is small enough for no PA (in which case the people directly in front of your amp are getting ear raped)). It doesn't matter to the listener, but it matters to the player. Feeling the growl of an amp is inspiring, as is great tone, and that makes you play better and that's important but my priority when playing live is how it sounds to the audience and the sound guy controls that mostly (even if he's just controlling how loud you are in the mix). So, playing alone at home or in rehearsal, of course it matters. For recording or through a PA, the mic'd tone is king.

 

[fudgeman]

If Jimmy Page didn't care about room mic's Zep would sound way different. There's a lot of room mics on Zep albums

. I don't think it matters much in a bedroom at 120db though with the mic up against the grill. I think it really depends. It all just depends, but for high gain metal not as much. However, it still attributes to natural compression quite a bit, so your chug thump might not be right without a room mic (small room effect).

- Rooms also determine how to dial in amps for people who like to do the controlled feedback too. The amp settings depend on those reflections at that point because the feeback going back into the guitar etc. Fundamentally, the differences are very small adjustments to make the amp 're-pop' to where it should be. It's always a little less gain, a touch more mids, less volume etc or the opposite depending on size of room and amp, but really not big adjustments even in greatly varying sized rooms/venues. - The problem is adjusting main volume to much on tube power sections if that's part of the main tone. Then there's a bit of reworking involved. If your amps super loud and depends on power amp sound then get an attenuator from a reactive load with a live thru-put for speakers. This way you still get the same settings, feedback at volume etc. when the thru-put is used on certain attenuators. Some just squeel like load boxes do still even using the thru put. It probably has to do with a balancing act of live vs loaded levels is my guess.
- I have a few unused bands of EQ in my rack preset for lows/highs so if I ever go somewhere or just recording and there's to much low end etc I can just turn the bands on/off and it's solved. Now, the chances of me taking my rig anywhere and playing with anyone are really low nowadays heh. Most people have stuff to jam through anyways. It's all for fun. If it was serious more I'd get a smaller rig.
- Room mics matter more on recording's, imo, for experimenting with. Most people want the tone they hear while standing in front of their amp. The room part they hear is forgotten in live settings unless coming from a processor etc. It's not duplicable in a live setting unless you bring the room with you and stand in it while playing. Some larger venues have rooms for this sort of thing where the cabs go back stage but usally it's just a generic green room or somethign for really picky people. I'd argue room mics almost never matter except when messing around during mixing/recording. After that you never hear about it other than when talking about modellers/plugins etc. If an multi IR combination is used on a rig using room mic IR's etc then people should remember to recalibrate their setup for unity gain for each patch. This way you have consistent room mic (IR) sounds while playing live and changing levels, otherwise you'll inevitably get issues from patch to patch not being consitent. You may noitce that room IR sounding different. Same reason why you gotta be extra careful with big ambient reverbs and delays because room size greatly affects them. Pretty much why nobody wants to deal with it, even the pros with pro engineers don't do it often. To big a pain to keep consitent from venue to venue unless you bring your own PA or calibration equipment. Everything is about calibration and scaling when it comes to live and translating that from a studio mix isn't hard if you have the time and tools, but most people don't have both. Especially if you only got hours/ minuets to do it in.
- I talk to much.
- This is a bit unrelated because it's close mics, but basically he uses this to attenuate and then re gain stage at the board. It shows when done well the results can be basically indistiguishable. This is very hard to do this well but then again Fryette is basically a magician.

You do not "talk too much", dumbass. Your comments are very insightful and helpful and the sharing of your wisdom and experience is greatly appreciated so that part of your brain that is overly concerned can suck it!!!

 

[c7spheres]

You do not "talk too much", dumbass. Your comments are very insightful and helpful and the sharing of your wisdom and experience is greatly appreciated so that part of your brain that is overly concerned can suck it!!!

Thanks for that. Glad to feel appreciated. : )

 

[Thaeon]

Agreed, but if someone is playing a small venue (e.g. local bar) with no PA system, the "amp in the room" sound is the only sound. Same goes for band rehearsals, bedroom practice etc.

I hate band rehearsal most of the time because of this specifically. I can’t ever hear the song as intended. I’m not really inspired by just my own playing though. It’s the whole thing that gets me going. If I can barely hear one of the player in my band or myself I get super bummed. I play better when I can hear me in the context of the rest of the music. For me playing music is a conversation. An active one. So if part of the conversation is inaudible I’m missing out.

Where would that be if you're on stage?

I never perform, but as a spectator the PA tends to sound optimal about 1/3 of the way into the crowd (usually happens to be just behind the pit).

Which is where I prefer to observe a show from. I’ve spent many shows front row Center. Most of the time it sounds like trash up there unless there are good center fills happening.

If I’m on stage, I’ve got a monitor mix. Either in my ear or in a wedge. I tend to ignore my amp once the show starts unless there’s an issue with it or I need controlled feedback. But I’m playing based on the monitor mix. Feeling the air move and the stage vibrate are nice, but unnecessary for me to feel inspired.

This.

I don’t care about stage sound when I’m an audience member. I want the band to sound good period. Then again, Metal isn’t my primary genre. I wouldn’t even say that rock is either anymore. More like electronic music that features some guitar.

Are people over thinking this one a bit? Of course it matters when you're at home playing by yourself. And, of course it doesn't matter when recording or live (unless the gig is small enough for no PA (in which case the people directly in front of your amp are getting ear raped)). It doesn't matter to the listener, but it matters to the player. Feeling the growl of an amp is inspiring, as is great tone, and that makes you play better and that's important but my priority when playing live is how it sounds to the audience and the sound guy controls that mostly (even if he's just controlling how loud you are in the mix). So, playing alone at home or in rehearsal, of course it matters. For recording or through a PA, the mic'd tone is king.

I’m not trying to say, don’t enjoy it. All I’m saying is that keep it in perspective. Does a cranked 100 watt amp through a cab sound great? Hell yeah it does. But it’s not useful in that isolated state in the context of a full band. Way too much low end. And it’s a very one directional sound. Get off axis and it’s useless.

Of course in your bedroom it’s all that matters because that’s all there is, and all that low end in the absence of the bass and drums is really nice.

Thanks for that. Glad to feel appreciated. : )

No one should take all these types of conversations all that seriously. In the end all that matters is that the end result is that the player achieves a sound they like. That was Jim’s path. Your’s might be different. Mine is sort of different. Same end result about what matters.

Cool thing about places like this is that we can talk, and even argue about it. And this place tends to stay more rational and less sensitive than others. Probably because this site is nearly 20 years old.

 

[Deadpool_25]

Thanks for that. Glad to feel appreciated. : )

STFU




❤️

 

[c7spheres]

@Thaeon @Deadpool_25 No shade intended. Is that the cool kids term? lol. Wasn't tyring to say I don't feel appreciated or anything, just that it feels good to be. -
- I wish formus like this and youtube existed when I was a kid though. If everything doesn't get lost or erased sso wil be a great resource in the future. We're making the world a better place through guitar tone knowledge. If we don't preserve it everyone will sound the same in the future. We're doing important work here.

 

[budda]

@Thaeon @Deadpool_25 No shade intended. Is that the cool kids term? lol. Wasn't tyring to say I don't feel appreciated or anything, just that it feels good to be. -
- I wish formus like this and youtube existed when I was a kid though. If everything doesn't get lost or erased sso wil be a great resource in the future. We're making the world a better place through guitar tone knowledge. If we don't preserve it everyone will sound the same in the future. We're doing important work here.

Buy an axefx

 

[c7spheres]

Buy an axefx

Thinking about it still. Yes, I'm I've ben looking at Balaguers and the Boogies again too though. It's complicated. lol

 

[budda]

Thinking about it still. Yes, I'm I've ben looking at Balaguers and the Boogies again too though. It's complicated. lol

You can buy a lot of guitars when you stop buying amps cabs and pedals

 

[c7spheres]

You can buy a lot of guitars when you stop buying amps cabs and pedals

Guitar builders are making me crazy with wow, look at that. I really like the idea of a 7 string flat top Floyded Jazzmaster style. It just looks so comfortable, but then again, I'm kinda sick of dealing with the process, but then again Balguer's taken away those issues. They're like the way it should be done for the most part, it'd seem.- I like the idea of just adding the AxeFx into my current rack too. It's either an AxeFx or a couple Waza ToneBenders pfft.

 

[budda]

Guitar builders are making me crazy with wow, look at that. I really like the idea of a 7 string flat top Floyded Jazzmaster style. It just looks so comfortable, but then again, I'm kinda sick of dealing with the process, but then again Balguer's taken away those issues. They're like the way it should be done for the most part, it'd seem.- I like the idea of just adding the AxeFx into my current rack too. It's either an AxeFx or a couple Waza ToneBenders pfft.

Get the axe first.

 

[MatrixClaw]

Amp in room is all that matters to 95% of guitarists.

/thread

 

[Legion]

You do not "talk too much", dumbass. Your comments are very insightful and helpful and the sharing of your wisdom and experience is greatly appreciated so that part of your brain that is overly concerned can suck it!!!

this isn't r/unexpectedlywholesome goddamnit BRING BACK THE RAGEPOSTING

 

[Kosthrash]

Imho all the difference (& the extra fun we get playing through an amp) is in the room reflections

 

[Thaeon]

@Thaeon @Deadpool_25 No shade intended. Is that the cool kids term? lol. Wasn't tyring to say I don't feel appreciated or anything, just that it feels good to be. -
- I wish formus like this and youtube existed when I was a kid though. If everything doesn't get lost or erased sso wil be a great resource in the future. We're making the world a better place through guitar tone knowledge. If we don't preserve it everyone will sound the same in the future. We're doing important work here.

No shade was perceived. This place is all in good fun and I take every exchange of opposing opinions with a grain of salt. Sometimes the opinion I represent isn’t even my own. I don’t honestly care what people thing about how guitar tone happens. My process and ideas work well for me. If someone else’s is different I may openly disagree, but I don’t need to convince anyone to validate my own position. I like the exercise of arguing.