American police must be doing something wrong...

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by hairychris, Aug 14, 2014.

  1. ElRay

    ElRay Mostly Harmless

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    Äw, thät mëäñs yöü dö cäre, ät lëäst ä littlë.

    EDIT: Seems the reference is lost to many (jump to 1:06 for the TLDW crowd):

     
  2. asher

    asher So Did We

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  3. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    It will be interesting to see if the reports regarding Michael Brown having struck the officer and fractured his eye socket just prior to being shot are true. There's are also reports that the various witness statements about the shooting contradict each other.

    Which might not put those who are going on in on this on very solid ground, including the Gazans from the original post.

    Also, if the shooting resulted from an officer dealing with being attacked to such an extent as alleged, that will certainly cast some doubt on the police having had bad judgment in the fact of physical assault.

    The reports haven't yet been on the major news sources, so I'm not saying that they've been well vetted or that they are reliable yet. If not, it would truly be horrible if a cop just drew on and shot someone for no reason on the street.

    In terms of likeliness, though, you have to wonder about the two narratives:

    A 6-year-veteran police officer with a clean disciplinary record snaps and guns down an innocent pedestrian on the street for no reason.

    After being recorded on video robbing a store, and then walking in the middle of road to the point where an officer stopped him, someone assauted a 6-year-veteran police officer with a clean disciplinary record, beating him and fracturing the officer's eye socket, and was shot.

    Some are banking on the "just snapped for no reason" theory. I'm interested in seeing how the evidence supports or disproves it from here out.
     
  4. TheStig1214

    TheStig1214 Mr. Tophat Jones

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    Apparently somewhere out there someone reported than everything we know about the case; the video of Brown robbing the store, the report by the officer of the attack, the fact the officer was injured, and all the rioting and looting is all not real and the media is exaggerating. I just got done arguing on another forum about it. Sad thing is I consider those people friends but they are exhibiting classic confirmation bias and are completely ignorant to the whole situation by choice. I can't handle it so I left.

    As for my opinion, I'm banking on the Brown is a criminal and assaulted the cop theory. Much more likely. Its just a shame in those sorts of neighborhoods people will deliberately ignore facts as a community if it helps their cause.

    Oh yeah, and I think the police action thus far is justified. Remember LA burning to the ground after Rodney King? They were trying to avoid that. Too bad it backfired when they just rioted more. Just my opinion.
     
  5. Grand Moff Tim

    Grand Moff Tim Some call me... Tim

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    Devil's advocate: Is it that much harder to draw a taser than it is to draw a pistol? Force would be justified in the case that the officer was attacked by Brown, but deadly force?
     
  6. TheStig1214

    TheStig1214 Mr. Tophat Jones

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    Apparently at the exact moment Brown was shot he was about 30 feet away from the officer. The effective range of the average law enforcement taser is about 15-20 feet, and that's pushing accuracy and penetration power. Factor in that Brown was 6'4" and near 300lbs and the officer had gotten the crap beat out of him already, I'd say the officer's life was in danger and the shooting was justified.

    Plus, there are instances where tasers don't take down guys that big.
     
  7. JoshuaVonFlash

    JoshuaVonFlash SSBRO.org regular

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    Of course it backfired what do you think is going to happen when you use tear gas and arm your self with military grade weapons? It was made worse when the local cops treated the peaceful protesters as looters and even more so when they released the footage of Brown "robbing" which many people saw as an attempted smear. (It was later revealed that Darren Wilson didn't know about the "robbery" when his altercation with Brown happened) And I added quotations to robbery because there's been footage released of Brown paying for or at least attempting to pay for the cigars, but that's irrelevant any way for what I mentioned above. It seems the Ferguson P.D. learned nothing from the 90's LA riots.
     
  8. TheStig1214

    TheStig1214 Mr. Tophat Jones

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    It's just my opinion/theory. If police showed up at your door with an armored car and sniper rifles, you'd more than likely do what they say, as would I. They wanted to make a big presence right away to avoid a whole big mess. The protesters thought differently, I guess. Also, the looters were hiding amongst the protestors and media.

    I haven't seen this video of Brown paying. Link?
     
  9. JoshuaVonFlash

    JoshuaVonFlash SSBRO.org regular

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    That analogy doesn't work as a good parallel to what's going on in Ferguson, seeing as how there was no reason for them to show up dressed like they where going to war.....with a group of protesters.



    Which is exactly the wrong course of action to take, when the state police took over and welcomed the protesters in a more supportive and much less hostile demeanor things calmed down....until the local PD released the "robbery" footage.

    This is true, but in order for looters to be looters wouldn't they eventually have to break off from the protesters and media journalists to actually loot things?


     
  10. asher

    asher So Did We

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    About that "clean record" thing:

    From The Day Ferguson Cops Were Caught in a Bloody Lie - The Daily Beast which is about Ferguson cops beating the shit out of a black guy they picked up who shared the same last name but different SS number and middle name of who their warrant was for, beat the shit out of him in the cell, charged him with getting blood on their uniforms (property damage) and then completely contradicting themselves when it came up in court.

    Color me a little skeptical.
     
  11. TheStig1214

    TheStig1214 Mr. Tophat Jones

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    *facepalm* That's literally that strong arm robbery footage, but the bit where he shoved the store owner was cut out. Confirmation bias to the max. He wasn't paying, he was reaching over the counter to steal cigars.
     
  12. Grand Moff Tim

    Grand Moff Tim Some call me... Tim

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    If he was 30 feet away, then he wasn't a threat. If he started closing the distance to become a threat, then he could be tasered once in taser range. If he was big enough that that didn't stop him, then bust out the the big guns. Seriously, shouldn't deadly force be the last resort whenever possible?

    I'm just being an armchair police officer here, obviously. I have no idea how I'd react in a similar situation. Just trying to see this from all sides.
     
  13. asher

    asher So Did We

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    30', because he was running, because the officer was shooting at him.

    I don't know why the taser would have been harder to reach for than his gun.
     
  14. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    That video was inadvertently shortened, I'm assuming.

    This one is much better.



    It's unfortunate that the first video had almost an entire third of the footage cut out of it. It's almost like it was intentional... but wouldn't that be lying to support one's case, and easily disproven by seeing the whole thing?

    It would be awful for someone to deliberately manipulate the public in that way, so I'll assume that they made an honest mistake, and look forward to them apologizing for riling things up.

    Hmm. That footage does show a complete lack of hesitation on the part of Michael Brown to reach out and strong arm another person, doesn't it? It makes me even more curious as to how reliable initial reports are that Brown was willing to assault a police officer, and break part of his skull.

    If someone has actually assaulted a store employee/owner while robbing them, and then a police officer started talking to them, the next question would be, how likely would a robber be to suspect the officer knew about the strong arm robbery? And if they did suspect that, how likely would they be to throw that cop a beating to not be arrested for the robbery?

    I don't think my reasoning is too far from likelihood, but I'd love to hear what other chains of events they view as just as likely to fit the events as we currently know them, and taking the histories of those involved into account.
     
  15. asher

    asher So Did We

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    So clearly he deserved to be shot dead by an officer not aware of the store incident?
     
  16. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    Here's what I'm asking:

    If Michael Brown was assaulting a police officer because he thought he was caught for the robbery, and if Brown even went so far as to break the officer's eye socket, leaving the officer dazed and in fear for his life... would you think the officer was justified in defending himself?

    I'm also asking, what chain of events do you see as likely, taking the histories of both parties into account?

    Notice that actually assaulting a police officer to the extent which initial reports have stated doesn't require the robbery to be a factor in the officer defending himself from what he would consider to be lethal threat. It only requires that Michael Brown beat someone to where they thought Brown was capable of killing them.
     
  17. TheStig1214

    TheStig1214 Mr. Tophat Jones

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    No, 30' because he walked away after beating up the cop. The cop aimed his weapon at Brown, told him to freeze and that he was under arrest for assaulting a police officer, then Brown ran at him again, which would be indicated by the all the bullets being in the front of Brown's body, which they were according to the autopsy. We aren't even sure if the officer had a taser either.

    I'm not saying he deserved to be shot dead at all, but if you beat the crap out of a police officer, walk away, then come at him again, you better be prepared to be shot at.

    I live in the NYC area and see all too many times cops who are permanently injured or killed in the line of duty dealing with dangerous criminals because they weren't fast enough on the draw.
     
  18. flint757

    flint757 SS.org Regular

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    I haven't been keeping up the last couple of days, been rather busy, but if the police officer was supposedly beaten to the point that he cracked the dudes skull then why was an autopsy necessary at all to decide whether the officer was justified? Evidence would be pretty obvious since the police officer would still have the same damage to his body a couple of days later. The first story I heard was that he was in his car and Brown reached for his gun and then he shot him. The story keeps changing on both sides it seems (at least in the news releases).

    Given the attention to this case the truth will definitely come out on that front, of that I am certain. Either way, the police are handling the situation in the wake of this incident poorly. The protest being started under misleading circumstances doesn't really change that. They are treating all the protesters as if they are all looters essentially, even the press. Couple that with the absolutely ridiculous gear they brought out and that police department is still full of dumb asses.

    If the officer didn't have a taser in his car or on his person he should have. If he did and didn't even try to use it he plays a part in all this whether he was justified or not. Police are supposed to be well trained in high risk situations aren't they? If they aren't or it is sub-par training then that sounds like an area that could need an overhaul in the near future.
     
  19. Necris

    Necris Bonitis.

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    Of course no-one deserves to be shot to death over a few stolen cigars, which is why getting a clear picture of the events that occurred between the moment the officer first made contact with Brown and his friend and the moment Brown was killed is important. Whether he stole cigars or bought them is completely irrelevant if after an officer attempted to stop him he rushed and assaulted said officer.

    Chief: Officer noticed Brown carrying suspected stolen cigars

    According to this article the Officer initially unsure but suspected Brown was connected to the robbery having seen him with the cigars and was able to confirm that Brown was the suspect in the robbery. Granted, the original story given (by the Police Chief) was that he stopped them because they "were in the middle of the street blocking traffic." So the veracity of this new story is uncertain.




    Suspicion that the officer had just went and killed a black teenager for no reason, the accompanying outrage and details filtering out as slowly as they tend to in cases like this probably lead to the demand for an autopsy.

    Caller: Officer's side of Ferguson shooting - CNN.com

    The story from police according to this is:
    Why haven't we seen the officer, even a video of him taken in an undisclosed location for his protection that can verify his injuries? I don't know. However, if something like a video showing his injuries were given to the media it would certainly be the first time I've ever seen something like that happen.

    I don't really think it would help public opinion anyway, if anything we'd probably have people screaming "it's make up, they're trying to cover up a murder!" or something similar.
     
  20. Murmel

    Murmel SS.org Regular

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    I get this feeling that during training they practice reaching out for the pistol most of the time, not the taser (because not everyone's got one).

    You might as well equip every cop with a taser if you're going to give them all guns. My personal opinion of course.
    But what do I know, if everyone's got a taser then perhaps they'll whip it out in less violent situations and we get headlines reporting taser abuse.
     

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