5150 Iconic - New Budget 5150 from EVH Gear

Discussion in 'Gear & Equipment' started by Deadpool_25, Nov 13, 2020.

  1. HeHasTheJazzHands

    HeHasTheJazzHands SS.org Regular

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    Damn dude good to see you branching out onto farming Youtube.
     
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  2. eaeolian

    eaeolian Pictures of guitars I don't even own anymore! Super Moderator

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    I'll take "lower tolerance parts are cheaper" for $200...
     
  3. Seabeast2000

    Seabeast2000 spec queen simp Contributor

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    I have excellent calves
     
  4. technomancer

    technomancer Gearus Pimptasticus Super Moderator

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    Eh taper matters a lot more than tolerance in this case... a 1M audio taper pot does very little up front and a bunch at the high end whether it's with 5% of 1M or 20% of 1M, just like a reverse audio does a lot at the beginning and very little from half on give or take.
     
  5. guitar_player4_2_0

    guitar_player4_2_0 SS.org Regular

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    Oh my, that Marshall cab sounds horrendous here.
     
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  6. GreatGreen

    GreatGreen SS.org Regular

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    It took me a long time to realize this but it's 100% true.

    An amp controls the amount of distortion, as well as general character of distortion (like whether it's muddy or tight, etc) but the cab and mic(s) are totally responsible for your tone's overall EQ signature, which itself entirely dictates how the amp will sound and sit in a mix.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022
  7. HeHasTheJazzHands

    HeHasTheJazzHands SS.org Regular

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    Yeah it's loaded with Eminence Legend alnico (I think 1228?) speakers he hated. Switched it out for 25w Greenbacks and it was like a MILLION times better.



    Here he's using the EVH 5153. Listen to the cab in the first video with the EVH, then this one. It's more than a night and day difference. :lol:
     
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  8. USMarine75

    USMarine75 Colorless green ideas sleep furiously Contributor

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    Johan Segeborn has done some great demos of this with both different speakers and cabs.
     
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  9. amptweaker

    amptweaker SS.org Regular

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    BORING TECH WARNING: This is down in the weeds of how potentiometers are made and chosen:

    First off, don't confuse 'tolerance' with 'taper'. Very few companies sell better than a 20% tolerance pot, without spending a LOT. It's just one more thing that you could say we 'cut corners' on, but NOBODY uses 10% tolerance pots. None of the 5150's you've ever played had 10% tolerance pots on them...they're all 20% tolerance. However, the tapers are set based on how fast we want things to turn up and/or where we'd like the middle to be. So for example, we use a 5% Audio for the gain so it comes up pretty slowly giving you more control on the first half, but we use a 30% Audio for something in between Audio and Linear for the Volumes, and a 10% Audio Mid(which was a linear on the first 5150, so that's changed over the years). I also ended up using a 30% Audio on the Resonance, even though the original amp used a 5% Audio, but that's another one of those things that's changed over the years.

    BUT, the way Audio and Reverse Audio taper pots are made is by screening little pieces of linear resistances around the circle, and overlapping a little. So it's 2 or 3 pieces of linear approximations to an actual Audio taper like a 1K piece on the bottom third, a 44K piece from there to halfway, and a 950K piece on the top half, for a 5% audio taper 1M pot(which I suppose they COULD make by using a gradually narrower stripe of resistive material around the circle, but I've NEVER seen one made that way). Unfortunately, NO manufacturers will guarantee that the center point, or half-way setting of the value is also in tolerance. Trust me, I brought in special 10% tolerance pots for my Kustom tube amps, and none of the vendors like Noble or Alpha would agree to even measuring the center setting. That center value varies about twice as much as the tolerance is......so while linear pots are very accurate when you set them in the center(like a Treble pot), audio tapers are NOT and that makes them vary a lot.

    Back to the discussion on how the Presence works on an EVH 100W.... the choice of using an Audio taper pot on the Presence of the 5150's goes back to my first one......it wasn't anything to do with 'tolerance' or price, just that we already had a 10KA in house and once I put it in the first prototype, I couldn't change it....even though it doesn't really do anything until you get to about 1:00. Ed liked the amp like it was, so I never changed it on any of the Peavey's, and EVH brand kept it that way on the 100W amps.

    When I got to EVH in 2019, I started this Iconic project using the 50W 5150 III as the go-to amp, because it was more popular than the 100W ones. It was also a newer design. It turns out that the 50W's presence had been changed to a Reverse Audio pot, which makes the presence control adjust more 'linearly' across the knob. It's due to how Presence is wired, so it literally changes linearly by using a Reverse Audio(comes up really fast). I didn't even really look at that detail on the 100W amps, but they were still Audio for whatever reason. The funny thing is that so far I've seen NOBODY compare the Iconic to the 50W 5150 III, or they'd find the presence matches pretty closely. Instead they all compare the Iconic Presence that 'comes up fast' to the 100W amps where the Presence 'comes up very slow'. You basically have to keep the Presence down around 10:00 to be where 1:00 is on the 100W heads!

    Anyway, I hope that clarifies this greatly over-simplified topic, but if I had to sum it up in one sentence......Please turn the knobs til it sounds right to you, and realize that some controls interact(like the passive EQ where the High also adjusts the mid frequency), which means you may have to go back and forth some.

    thanks,
    James
     
  10. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

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    @amptweaker there’s been a lot talked about the mids on the Iconic vs the OG, II, and III. When you (and Eddie) were designing this, what was the reason to go to a more balanced EQ profile, as opposed to a 5150 IV sort of a thing, with another mod-heavy amp? I don’t know if I read it somewhere or made it up in my mind that the idea was to capture the “iconic” early VH tones. But was that the reason, or what was the thought process behind the design?
     
  11. BadSeed

    BadSeed SS.org Regular

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    Great question, curious on the answer
     
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  12. profwoot

    profwoot SS.org Regular

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    When y'all talk about "mid-heavy" amps, are you just talking about the default sound with everything at noon? I don't really understand why that matters, I guess.
     
  13. USMarine75

    USMarine75 Colorless green ideas sleep furiously Contributor

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    James is a national treasure. :yesway:
     
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  14. Emperoff

    Emperoff Not using 5150s Contributor

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    Because everything sounds better with Greenbacks! :D
     
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  15. HeHasTheJazzHands

    HeHasTheJazzHands SS.org Regular

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    Also true. :lol: Thought it sounded better than the V30 cab by a mile.
     
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  16. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    At this point I don't even know if people are being serious when they start talking about mids. :lol:
     
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  17. eaeolian

    eaeolian Pictures of guitars I don't even own anymore! Super Moderator

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    I actually didn't think about my own experiences with audio taper pots, but that makes sense. I stand corrected. I'm getting too cynical in my old age, I guess. ;)
     
  18. amptweaker

    amptweaker SS.org Regular

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    V30 and Greenbacks are almost polar opposites in terms of how much the upper mids punch out(on the V30) vs are calm(on the Greenbacks).
    JB
     
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  19. amptweaker

    amptweaker SS.org Regular

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    I didn't really take your comment as all that cynical, but rather that SOMETHING has to be different for it to be cheaper......so I got your point. To get the cost down, I made a lot of changes to things that I knew wouldn't cause problems, you know like in terms of the jelly-bean parts, and these potentiometers ARE a little bit cheaper than the ones we use on the 5150 III's built in our Mexican factory. We're not shipping US made transformers to China to build amps, for example, nor are we shipping Celestions from UK to China, where they already make the vast majority of their speakers.

    I was just making sure y'all understand how the pots can vary.....in fact, we didn't just grab stuff off the shelf, I had to get the particular potentiometer vendor to redesign the audio taper pots 3 or 4 times before they got the taper to feel like what we currently use. I know how important that stuff is, in terms of where the knobs jump faster, or come up slower, so it's a big deal. We DID use metal shaft pots that are designed for 500V signals, unlike some of our competitors that use plastic shaft pots designed for only 50V signals! It's not like we're marketing that fact, I just made sure to spec in the right things that matter so you guys would have a good experience with the product, and so it wouldn't break the first time you bump it on a door facing!!

    James
     
  20. amptweaker

    amptweaker SS.org Regular

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    To be honest, as I've said before, I was mainly trying to match the EQ from the 50W 5150 III, and make it so it sounded really close to the same settings of the Green, Blue and Red with their respective EQ's. One thing is that the extra Overdrive and Burn switches let us split up the gain into 2 manageable chunks. So I made the non-Burn a little less gain and a little tighter than the Burn mode, so that the Burn is more like a 5150 Block and the non-burn is more like his original Marshall tones. On the Overdrive button, we wanted a little heavier tone than the Blue channels, again so it's more like the original Marshall tones where he cleaned up the guitar for clean tones.

    On the original 5150, I changed a couple of things like a capacitor and the mid-pot, differently from our original VTM, but over time we drifted away from that on the Ch 1 of the 5150 II, and they dropped it on the 5150 III's, so it ends up being just a progression of where Ed was as time went by. For example, when I was doing the 5150 II, he wanted the amp to be brighter, brighter, brighter, and was using a metal pick, and was even experimenting with George L cables! So it didn't surprise me to find that these EVH brand amps were even brighter, so I used similar guidelines to do these new amps.

    In talking about tone, Ed had often used the word 'clean' to mean 'brighter'. I figured that out doing the 5150 II, because he liked a certain brightness that popped out mostly when you clean up the guitar.

    I've also explained the pot taper difference on the Presence, which was right from the newest popular 5150 III amps, the 50W models. Anyway, all these amps have been kind of moving forward on a quest.

    James
     

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