2012 Olympia

Discussion in 'Lifestyle, Health, Fitness & Food' started by Uncreative123, Sep 29, 2012.

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  1. Uncreative123

    Uncreative123 SS.org Regular

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    Right, because I have a lot of knowledge and you made an ignorant, bigoted statement. I asked you 20 different questions and rather than answering any of them you just went on about "cheating". You had nothing to say about women or cancer and AIDS patients, or people on TRT. So I guess they're still all "juicers" to you. Just a bunch of cheaters trying to not have kids and 'cheat' death.
    You do realize 90% of AS users are not professional athletes right? and neither are you. So lol @ talking about the tour de france as if it has anything to do with this discussion. I'm really curious to know how you define "cheating" when there's not even a competition?

    Everyone's T levels are different. If someone has lower T levels than someone else is that fair? Or is it fair for the person with lower T levels to supplement that low T to bring it up to 'normal' levels and be on par with the other person? There are hundreds of thousands of people on TRT for life. Not just older guys either. Some of them taking GH too. Where are they on your list when they're just trying to 'even things out'. ...is that cheating?

    I said your body produces creatine and testosterone. I didn't ask if you ate food. Your comparison was absolutely ridiculous. Your body produces both and your response to this was 'lol, derp, you can't eat testosterone'. Does your body produce steak or chicken? Because if it doesn't I don't know why you're bringing it up. We're talking about body systems and what the body does naturally. We're not talking about what you eat.
     
  2. ihunda

    ihunda SS.org Regular

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    I love the debate here!

    You know people who think sports without steroids or anabolic substances is more "fair" are fooling themselves. Sports are the most unfair thing ever, it's genetics first, hard work second.

    Take me as example, I just run very very very fast although I never trained in my life. When I was in high school, I was winning all the 100 meters races even though I had an awful form and practicaly no training, that was entirely genetics (I am from the Comoros Islands, we run fast :fawk:).

    Now all the school coaches wanted me to run so that the school would get medals and some "aura" but this was a sportsmanship joke.

    Now fast forward 10 years, I've been doing a lot of martials art and witness some of the selection for Judo and Karate here in France and clearly it's all about selecting kids with the best genetics and then training them. How's that not unfair to the other kids????

    Add some steroids and other enhancements, now it's a level playing field!

    Well I don't truely believe that last sentence but I hope you got my point :D
     
  3. Uncreative123

    Uncreative123 SS.org Regular

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    Really- was it? That's a really hypocritical statement for you to make considering just two posts ago you said "give credit where credit is due" in regards to professional BB'ers. You said it's not just gear that makes them big, it's hard work, genetics, etc. -insinuating that you can't just take a magical pill and BOOM you're a bodybuilder. I think we're all in agreement that "the journey" is hardwork and dedication which is required with or without the use of AS.
    But here you've essentially agreed that AS use means you don't have to work hard or be dedicated at all, which again is a myth perpetuated by ignorance.

    Participating in powerlifting competitions does not equate to knowledge of anabolic steroids. It's weightlifting vs. anatomy/physiology/chemistry.
     
  4. danger5oh

    danger5oh I'm always... hungry

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    Hahaha... so true. Sports by design are meant to separate winners from losers, and not everyone is meant to win, I don't care how many participation trophies you want to hand out to the losers hahaha. That's the point of competition.
     
  5. danger5oh

    danger5oh I'm always... hungry

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    Dude... you're killing me. I'm only saying that's the stance that I take. It's more just a lifestyle choice. The bottom line is that I only do it as a hobby. For me, I just like to see how far I can go on my own. That's it. That's my own personal journey. I enjoy the fact that others assume that I've juiced. I further enjoy smashing guys on stage that do. Why? Because I know for a fact that I'm doing it solely based on genetics and knowledge of anatomy/physiology/chemistry. Do I still look up to guys like Ronnie Coleman? Absolutely. Do I think that Barry Bonds deserves the asterisk? Not at all. They've all earned their accolades by putting in hours of hard work. Just because I don't personally participate in something doesn't mean I'm against it. I don't really like Dream Theater's music, but Petrucci is still one of my favorite guitarists based on other factors, but you can't tell me I have to listen to DT or I'm not a fan. Go back and read all of my comments. Not a single one of them was contradictory, preachy, or judgmental. I'm a fan of the Olympia and bodybuilding. That's why I clicked on your thread. You're debating with yourself on this topic.
     
  6. Tiger

    Tiger SS.org Regular

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    ^ He has a solid history of really getting into his e-fights, dont sweat it.



    Dude really? I never said I thought sick people didnt need it nor did I say steroids are bad. You'd have to be a retard to derive that from what I said. You're not a retard, are you?
     
  7. danger5oh

    danger5oh I'm always... hungry

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    ^ kinda figured :/

    ANYWAY, in an attempt to get this thread back on track... who the hell is Shawn Rhoden? I've actually been out of the scene for a couple of years, but this guy looks pretty phenomenal. I googled his name and was kinda surprised that he has been competing for so long, but only got his pro card a few years ago. He's got very classic lines... reminds me of Flex Wheeler... and I'm actually surprised how well the judges placed him considering he doesn't really out-mass that many guys. Very refreshing to see, especially at the Olympia.
     
  8. Aevolve

    Aevolve Yugen.

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    I think it's pretty much established at this point that Uncreative has a way of starting this e-bickering on a regular basis as a fleeting attempt to eagerly prove to everyone how much more "knowledgeable" he is in every regard. :rolleyes:

    Ignore and get the thread back on topic, shall we?
     
  9. TREYAZAGHTOTH

    TREYAZAGHTOTH 'bone' carpenter

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    I don't mean to diss anyone, but I think a few points need clarification:

    1) The steroids used to reduce inflammation are different from the anabolic steroids..we mainly use glucocorticoids for reduction of inflammation.
    eg. methyl prednisolone, dexamethasone.
    these steroids are NOT used for anabolism...or body building.

    2) Drugs that are used to build muscle in a diseased condition is for therapeutic purposes...that is the patients need it for well being.

    Anabolic drugs used for body building are NOT therapeutic.
    The dosages used are not at all in the recommended range.

    Needless to say there is an ethical issue.
    That is why we physicians prescribe anabolic steroids to debilitated patients, who will lead a better quality of life and serve society better.

    or in other words, the benefits outweigh the side effects…because the disease they have will leave the patient worse off.However these patients are monitored by doctors, so any adverse effect can be picked up and managed.

    I do not think it is fair to compare body builders to sick patients.

    Progesterone is no longer used in oral contraceptives...now a synthetic variant of progesterone is used, which is highly 'target' specific....meaning it targets the reproductive organs, while decreasing the systemic side effects.

    FYI, the reason why pure progesterone was stopped was that it lead to unwanted side effects.

    3) The issue gets complicated when people mix personal experiences with personal opinion.

    There are quite a few articles at Pubmed which cite the adverse effects of anabolic steroids.
    In fact an article published in April 2012 attributes four deaths to anabolic steroid abuse...in athletes.
    Articles published at pubmed are peer -reviewed by people who are qualified to do so.
    We don't get some dude, who is the editor of a muscle magazine giving his opinion on steroid usage.
    ( Just go to pubmed and type anabolic steroids)
    I can provide the link if anyone is interested.

    the videos attached to this post has many shortcomings:

    1) they say that anabolic steroid users are all healthy...and they have blood workups to prove it...

    Side effects of anabolic steroids include structural changes to viscera...something like plastic deformation to matter.
    These changes cannot be picked up by blood tests alone.

    2) In the third video, Dr. Charles Yesalis is interviewed. He has quite a few number of articles at Pubmed. A few of them highlight the adverse effects of anaboic steroids. Again I can provide the link if anyone needs it.

    3) The be-spectacled guy is trying to asking the older bodybuilder for evidence for any long term side-effects( second video at 4:30).

    Isn't it odd?..i mean who is the older guy? just because he has used anabolic steroids for a few decades, he is an expert?
    2500 followups… is he qualified to make a statement like that..?

    3) The be-spectalced guy questions a doctor(dr Gary) about "i am looking for the science, that steroids are bad"..and then Dr. Gary goes on to say that there are no tell tale autopsy findings that co-relates the cause of death due to steroid abuse. The article at pubmed refutes that.


    4) the statistic given about the number of deaths due to steroid useage is skewed..the reason being more people smoke and consume alcohol than people who do anabolic steroids.
    So yeah there will be more people who die from smoking and drinking.

    5) Using death as an end point of the side effect of a drug is naive..what about the morbidity that it causes…for example frequent temper tantrums or picking fights with others over silly issues …ahem cough…cough..:)

    6) Anabolic steroids are no.142 in the list of drugs that are responsible for emergency room visits…another skewed statistic.
    Alcohol,cocaine, benzodiazepines (diazepam, clonazepam ,nitrazepam) etc are substances which are noo-tropic..they affect the higher brain, and are thus ‘stress relieving’…and hence they are likely to be abused.

    The abuse of anabolic steroids is for body building…no one goes like” dude lets get a few beers, smoke a couple of joints and do some DHEA so that I can get high”

    The other drugs in the list are commonly prescribed drugs warfarin (anti blood clotter )paracetamol, codiene (cough supressant) which are very commonly available…and are likely to be overdosed..the most common reason being for suicide.

    In the end, to each his own….i guess.
    But when we make a choice, our decisions should be based on an educated understanding of both the pros and the cons.
    Finally if the pharmaceutical companies can make a killing of introducing new drugs (drugs to treat shyness in a three year old) and legalize it, why cant they do the same for anabolic steroids use in bodybuilding?

    It is everyman’s wet dream to have a huge physique..so there is a huge market here.
    Why hasn’t’ it been legalized?

    Regards
    dinesh
     
  10. Uncreative123

    Uncreative123 SS.org Regular

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    Stop being evasive. I asked you a very simple question that you still won't answer- where do you draw the line? If someone has a prescription for Testosterone Replacement Therapy- are they still a "juicer"? A cheater? Rather than answer to your own statement or retract it and bow-out gracefully admitting you made a stupid comment....you resort to name-calling. You called me a retard because you can't defend your position. You have no credibility on this matter whatsoever. You have no argument or even a valid statement to put forth.

    YOU chose to comment, nobody asked for your opinion
    YOU made a bigoted and ignorant statement
    YOU haven't defended it or retracted it
    YOU have chosen to resort to name calling rather than answering any questions or having a logical informative debate.


    ...but I'm the one who started this "e-fight"? Maybe it's YOU who has a history of causing these problems. I don't see anyone else in this thread calling people names and throwing a fit except for you. If you want to have a discussion then lets have it. If you want to act like a child and call people names, take it elsewhere.
     
  11. Uncreative123

    Uncreative123 SS.org Regular

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    You don't ever contribute anything worthwhile to any of these threads, ever. If you have something of worth to add to this discussion do it- or stay out of it. It's that simple.
     
  12. Uncreative123

    Uncreative123 SS.org Regular

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    You've misunderstood some things, heavily misconstrued others, and flat-out lied about the rest. I don't have time to get to all of them, so I'll do what I can.

    1) I never said corticosteroids or progesterone were the same as anabolic steroids. Corticosteroids can have far worse side effects than anabolic steroids- but they are LEGAL when administered by an M.D. and often used unnecessarily. Nobody ever mentioned using them for 'anabolism', only that athletes often use them to reduce inflammation (which was clearly stated) so I don't understand how you came to that conclusion or why you even brought that up at all. It was already clearly understood and stated.

    2) Again, SAME exact thing for your #2 point. Already clearly stated, don't know why you even mentioned it as if it were a counterpoint.
    You go on to add that patients are monitored by doctors etc. as if bodybuilders aren't. Everybody I personally know that has used AS has always had regular doctor visits (just like in the videos that you tried to discredit); always gets bloodwork done (before, during, and after cycle); constantly monitors blood pressure (most even have in home BP meters). It was at this point that I started to become skeptical of your "credentials" (which was nothing more than calling yourself a physician- and lets be real, this isn't something most physicians are exactly up to par on being knowledgeable about) The longer the post went on the more your "facts" became rather than fact-based, with your whole "roid-rage" comment as well as at the end with not understanding pharma-companies. Did you take the Hippocratic Oath? It seems that some of your statements fly in the face of that creed.


    Your Progesterone statements are just....I don't believe for a second you're a physician. It's very clearly stated even on Wikipedia (I'll actually cite my sources rather than asking if people want them or not):

    "The use of progesterone and its analogues have many medical applications, both to address acute situations and to address the long-term decline of natural progesterone levels. Because of the poor bioavailability of progesterone when taken orally, many synthetic progestins have been designed with improved oral bioavailability and have been used long before progesterone formulations became available.[41] Progesterone was approved by the United States Food and Drug Administration as vaginal gel on July 31, 1997,[42] an oral capsule on May 14, 1998[43] in an injection form on April 25, 2001[44] and as a vaginal insert on June 21, 2007.[45]"


    Most orals have poor bio-availability creating the necessity for something better. There is nothing there about side-effects clamoring for its use to be discontinued. YES- the sideeffects are very real and can be harsh. Just because synthetic versions are used doesn't mean what you're trying to claim it means. What do you think Anabolic Steroids are? They're all synthetic derivatives of Testosterone. Some work differently than others, but essentially they have one main function. Just because one is called Boldenone and the other methandrostenolone, or is a longer or shorter estered version of Testosterone doesn't change the fact that it's still an anabolic steroid.



    According to your source- 2012 attributed 4 deaths to anabolic steroids, where as tobacco and alcohol are still responsible for HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of deaths each year, but you think the data is "skewed" because more people drink and smoke than use A.S. That is such an irresponsible statement it's not even funny. It is also easily refuted by using remedial math skills.

    Let's assume 100 million people in this country (out of the 300 million that live here) smoke and drink. That is a VERY high estimate considering 1/3 of the populous is underage and not admissible, but we're giving you the benefit of the doubt. Going off the last stats I provided in 2006- 235,000 deaths from smoking and 75,000 from drinking= 310,000 deaths.

    100,000,000/310,000= 322 and change. So 1 in every 322 people would die as a result from drinking or smoking.

    So now, let's take your figure of "4" deaths. If it were on the same scale of being the direct cause of death as drinking and smoking that would only allow for 1,288 people to use anabolic steroids. I don't think I need to tell anyone that number is not even close to the amount of people that use AS. There's probably 1,200 IFBB pros alone. I'm sure your source is right in only attributing 4 deaths to steroid use- that is right on par for all the previous years, but again I already stated that and I'm not sure why you brought it up. I mean more people probably die from falling down the stairs than from AS use so I really really do not understand why you feel they are dangerous and unethical (when not prescribed by a physician lol) when 4 deaths a year are being reported.


    I won't even go into your weird analysis of the videos- which again the way you stated it coincides with what I've already said. I will however say YES- DO POST YOUR SOURCES. You said one or two of the doctors from the videos (whose opinions you disagree with? I think?) are also quoted in your article...so you're giving them credibility there, but then discrediting them because they appear in that video? It's just so non-sensical. I actually need to read it for myself to even know what you're agreeing with or disagreeing with. A lot of what you said were things that were already stated clearly or implied to be understood.


    Your temper-tantrum comment is really what discredited everything you had to say. You really really just do not understand what you are talking about. Those kind of comments- again, not on par with the Hippocratic Oath.
    I've never met anyone on AS with a "rage" problem, but anytime I go downtown on weekends I ALWAYS see people with alcohol-rage problems.




    Your last comment about "why hasn't it been legalized if there's such a big market for it"? Short answer- IT HAS BEEN. Testosterone Replacement Therapy is legal and really easy to get on. Oh and it IS legal in the UK and INDIA. Aren't you from India? How do you not know this? Even if you didn't want to go that route- welcome to the world of supplements. A massive BILLION dollar industry which apparently you're blind to. How often do we hear about products getting pulled from the shelves? Most notably- pro-hormones. Pro-hormones were/are legal to buy at any GNC or Complete Nutrition. Pro-hormones are also far more destructive than anabolic steroids and to add insult to injury you have idiot salesmen selling them to kids who have no idea what it will do to their bodies. I can't tell you how many stories I've read about kids under 21 who end up on TRT because they used pro-hormones they bought over the counter and had no idea what they were doing or using and it ended up destroying their endocrine system and putting them on TRT for the rest of their lives. How is THAT legal?



    Who are you to discredit all the PHD's, Endocrinologists, phisios, etc. in those clips? You call bodybuilding a "wet-dream". You are not a physician, not in this country anyway and your standards would never be accepted here.
     
  13. Edika

    Edika SS.org Regular

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    I was going to write a long comment about the whole situation but it's not worth it as it will add more fuel to the fire. I will say on thing though.

    Uncreative123 chill out man.

    People are entitled to their opinion and taking a hostile stance never leads to a discussion just name calling and yelling. The original thread was about the Olympia competition and you guys have derailed it into a squabble about performance enhancing drugs.

    Personally I find this body modification excessive and it surpasses the actual function of exercise, to stay healthy. If this is the way some people can give meaning to their existence and differentiate themselves from other people then it's their choice. even if I don't agree with it.
     
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  14. Tiger

    Tiger SS.org Regular

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    Why are you asking me if an individual needing AS medically is a juicer...? Weight lifters who compete and use AS are the juicers we are talking about. Not sure why you are even asking...?

    Maybe being evasive is your way of perceiving me not having a clue why you're asking random questions.

    So much e-rage from your end. :lol:
     
  15. Aevolve

    Aevolve Yugen.

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    Yes sir, because flying off the handle and flaming, even harassing anyone that doesn't share your opinion of something makes you such a profound source of contribution.

    Let's take a thread that's supposed to be discussing the results of a competition and turn it into a raging AS debate, because that's ALSO constructive.

    Please.
     
  16. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    Oh look another mucked up thread. :rolleyes:

    This isn't just on Uncreative123, a few other folks in here should probably be banned right now. Don't kick the beehive folks. Next time you'll be getting the hammer just as hard. :yesway:
     
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