10 more states concidering Immigration Laws!!!!

orb451

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LA city council is set to vote on boycotting some services/contracts from AZ to punish them for the law. I believe San Diego and San Francisco have done the same. It's just a big Fuck You from the idiots here thinking "we'll show *them*... eh!".

Stupid.

Syrinx, please clarify which guy you're talking about. I assume you mean this guy:

Immigration officials detaining, deporting American citizens | McClatchy

As for the guy in the article, first, he wasn't Latino. Second, he was arrested on drug charges. Third, he claimed while in custody that he'd been shot several times serving in the Russian Army and that he swam ashore to America from a Russian Submarine. I think it's safe to say the guy's a nut. Or at the very least, is a few melon balls short of a fruit salad.

Am I surprised that he not only lacked proper documentation, but also in telling his wild story, sent up more red flags that would cause the authorities to hold him longer? No.

From the article, and it appears this shit happened in 2006-2008, I can't get the exact date, that roughly 280,000 illegal immigrants are found and deported (at least as of 2006). Of those, from the article, 125 are thought to be there mistakenly. 125 out of 280,000? I'll take those odds.
 

TemjinStrife

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Yes, but detention without cause is horrifying, and not something that our Constitution allows.

Benjamin Franklin had a quote:
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

This giving up of our rights that we are seeing for extra security (both in terms of things like the Patriot Act and the ramifications of the Arizona immigration bill) open up dangerous precedents that can essentially remove our protections as citizens.
 

orb451

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Yes, but detention without cause is horrifying, and not something that our Constitution allows.

Benjamin Franklin had a quote:


This giving up of our rights that we are seeing for extra security (both in terms of things like the Patriot Act and the ramifications of the Arizona immigration bill) open up dangerous precedents that can essentially remove our protections as citizens.

Most of our rights have been given up or gone since before the Patriot Act. This particular case is not detention without cause. They had just cause to arrest and jail the guy. Where it gets sticky is him being mentally ill, and not being able to prove that he was a citizen and also on ICE for making him and his family jump through so many hoops to prove that he was in fact here legally. In other words, this is not a case of someone being plucked off the streets because he looked *different* and then having to go through an extraordinary rendition to some hell-hole black-ops hush hush facility outside of Dubai.

The guy's a criminal, sure I feel bad for him being mentally fucked up, but not so much that he should get a free-pass over it. Being jailed a few weeks and having to go through ICE's song and dance is the *least* of his problems.
 

Syrinx

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Syrinx, please clarify which guy you're talking about. I assume you mean this guy:

Immigration officials detaining, deporting American citizens | McClatchy

As for the guy in the article, first, he wasn't Latino. Second, he was arrested on drug charges. Third, he claimed while in custody that he'd been shot several times serving in the Russian Army and that he swam ashore to America from a Russian Submarine. I think it's safe to say the guy's a nut. Or at the very least, is a few melon balls short of a fruit salad.

Am I surprised that he not only lacked proper documentation, but also in telling his wild story, sent up more red flags that would cause the authorities to hold him longer? No.

Your assumption was very wrong, especially when I clearly stated the guy provided multiple forms of legal documentation.
 

renzoip

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this is the last time im going to post here because there are so many different opinions and im getting neg repped for not agreeing lol. seems alot of people disagree on who the illegal immigrants are and who should be on stolen land. so a bunch of illegal immigrants are working in the food,contruction, and labor fields. so what? im sur ethat white people applied but got beaten by a few mexicans for the job. theres a reason im sure. if they werent more qualified or willing to do more work for less than a white person or american than in my opinion the WON the job1 not stole it! theres a reason they where hired, its not like the person that hired them felt sorry for them and hired them instead of an american. and as for the camping out at hardware stores or home improvement stores. i constantly see amricans at wal mart camped out in campers and its considered ok. wal mart even had a commercial a few years ago promoting camping in their lots.

I made another thread about 2 weeks ago expressing my contempt for the Arizona immigration law and got very similar responses. With 51% approval rate, it comes as no surprise. Still, I think this law is a huge mistake. Many people compare the U.S. to your house or your tent. Well, the U.S. is not yours the way a piece of property would be. It belongs to millions of citizens who don't always agree on issues. On the other hand, people talk about the undocumented as if a population of about 11 million could actually bring down a country of 309 million people. While the problems of undocumented immigrants are real, this looks like another example of scapegoating. And while I agree its not like Nazi Germany, this law is IMO is more of an authoritarian populist measure aimed to hurt a weak sector of the population under some sense of self-righteousness for the sake of "cleaning up the country". :noplease:
 

orb451

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Your assumption was very wrong, especially when I clearly stated the guy provided multiple forms of legal documentation.


Well if my assumption was very wrong, which guy are you talking about? Do you have links to the news story about him? If we're talking about the same guy, remember the burden of proof of citizenship is on the INDIVIDUAL. It's not up to ICE (or anyone else) to *prove* that a suspect is here legally. That burden, however unfair it might seem, is up to the person(s) being detained and/or deported.
 

orb451

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And while I agree its not like Nazi Germany, this law is IMO is more of an authoritarian populist measure aimed to hurt a weak sector of the population under some sense of self-righteousness for the sake of "cleaning up the country". :noplease:

I think you're reading too much into it with this. It's not about cleaning up the country, it's about enforcing existing federal law. If Canadians were emigrating here in vast numbers, sitting on their hocky-stick carrying asses, using up government assistance so they didn't have to work or get real jobs and refused to speak the language (eh?) then I'm sure the border states like Montana, Washington, North Dakota, etc would all be railing against them coming here. And, btw, hopefully you get that bit of sarcastic humor in there, I have nothing against any Canadians, except maybe Brian Adams, but my understanding is that Canada has apologized for him several times.

That said, the federal law has been in place for a long time. It's been a joke. It's been ignored. Arizona stepped up and said enough is enough, we're fucked financially, these people are sapping our resources, breaking the law, crowding our prisons. Enough. Maybe to you that's being self-righteous. To me it just makes sense. Doing zero about illegal immigration has worked wonders thus far, let's try something else instead.
 

jymellis

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Firstly, I'm not negging you Jym, just for the record. :wub:

will work for significantly less, and follow directions unquestionably, because they A) don't have other options, and B) they need quick, off the books money, .

As for camping, I was not implying they were sleeping outside these establishments, but they are simply sitting around waiting to do odd jobs, which for the record, I don't really have a problem with. Until of course a general contractor pulls up and offers a few guys $50 to do a quick job, just so he doesn't have to pay others, legitimate workers a decent wage.

.

just thought i would mention i have done both of these on numerous occasions. its not easy raising a family!!!! oh and i have crossed pickett lines for work also:cool:
 

Syrinx

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Well if my assumption was very wrong, which guy are you talking about? Do you have links to the news story about him?

I'll see if I can dig up the article again later today. Our local papers website sucks for searching.


If we're talking about the same guy, remember the burden of proof of citizenship is on the INDIVIDUAL. It's not up to ICE (or anyone else) to *prove* that a suspect is here legally. That burden, however unfair it might seem, is up to the person(s) being detained and/or deported.
Good lord, how many times will I have to repeat it? He DID prove he belonged. He gave them multiple legal documents including a passport and visa. He was arrested for not having a drivers license on him and detained for 2 weeks even though they had no legal reason to do so. Here in AZ, not having a license on you is a ticket, not something that gets you arrested.

To the other local poster, yes this did happen 2 years ago but there is nothing to stop it from happening again with this new law. I know they say officers are going through more training to prevent profiling but there's no guarantee it won't happen again. Arpaio is proof of that.

They can still go on a sweep of an area, find a reason to pull someone over (oh look you didn't stop long enough on that right turn) and away they go.
 

orb451

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I'll see if I can dig up the article again later today. Our local papers website sucks for searching.



Good lord, how many times will I have to repeat it? He DID prove he belonged. He gave them multiple legal documents including a passport and visa. He was arrested for not having a drivers license on him and detained for 2 weeks even though they had no legal reason to do so. Here in AZ, not having a license on you is a ticket, not something that gets you arrested.

To the other local poster, yes this did happen 2 years ago but there is nothing to stop it from happening again with this new law. I know they say officers are going through more training to prevent profiling but there's no guarantee it won't happen again. Arpaio is proof of that.

They can still go on a sweep of an area, find a reason to pull someone over (oh look you didn't stop long enough on that right turn) and away they go.

Forgive me. It's still a little early in the AM where I am, so maybe I'm not understanding you fully. Are we, or are we NOT talking about the same person? The same one I linked to in the article? The mad Russian? That guy got busted for drugs. Not an illegal right turn. So again, I'm assuming you're talking about someone else. Someone that did get pulled over for a right turn or some shit, and who gave them a handful of proof and STILL spent 2 weeks in jail.

If that's what we're talking about, yes, that sucks. I'd agree that that's a fuckup, but I'd also argue that that is NOT the norm. And if we're talking about something that happened 2 years ago, that is VERY relevant as right now, as you well know, the media is in a full blown shitstorm with AZ's new law. AZ could start handing out crisp 100 dollar bills to every resident TODAY and the news would STILL report on how it somehow ties into the new immigration law. Point is, the kind of thing you're talking about - police unjustly or unfairly targeting Mexicans - is going to be sooo very closely watched that they're not going to be able to get away with anything.

Period.

Arizona has ALREADY been slapped with lawsuits over this and it's not even in full swing yet. What do you think is going to happen if ol' Redneck Rick the patrolmen decides he wants to start fucking with the locals now? Say he pulls someone over because they're driving a beige Toyota with a lawnmower hanging out the back, lets say it's for the busted tail light. He asks for immigration papers. Guy has none. Guy gets carted off to jail awaiting deportation, a scenario much like the one you're talking about, and he's GOT his papers. Turns out he was born here. Turns out he's completely legal.

Do you have any idea just how much dog shit this cop just stepped in? They're going to be crossing every "t", dotting every "i" to make sure that if they determine someone is here illegally, that they are in fact, here illegally. There is NO room for fuck ups. None.

The state is in the verge of insolvency and some of you are acting like none of it matters. That redneck cops are going to go hog wild with this new law. Totally disregarding the fact that if they DID go hog wild enforcing this, they'll have the ACLU and every immigrant from here to Mexico City lining up to bend them over fuck them hard in their asses.
 

MaxOfMetal

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To the other local poster, yes this did happen 2 years ago but there is nothing to stop it from happening again with this new law. I know they say officers are going through more training to prevent profiling but there's no guarantee it won't happen again. Arpaio is proof of that.

They can still go on a sweep of an area, find a reason to pull someone over (oh look you didn't stop long enough on that right turn) and away they go.

There's never a guarantee of anything. Just like there is no guarantee something like this WILL happen again.

We can continue to put our heads in the ground, and ignore the elephant in the room (as well as federal law), but at the end of the day, can you really say that this is norm? Are Latinos getting detained left and right and we're just not hearing about it until two years down the road?

Also, the Arpaio regime will not last forever. You can't just denounce this legislation on the basis of a 77 year old man who will not be in office forever. Hell, in two years he can be out of the picture.
 

Syrinx

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Forgive me. It's still a little early in the AM where I am, so maybe I'm not understanding you fully. Are we, or are we NOT talking about the same person?
Again, we are not talking about the same guy.

Arizona has ALREADY been slapped with lawsuits over this and it's not even in full swing yet. What do you think is going to happen if ol' Redneck Rick the patrolmen decides he wants to start fucking with the locals now?

Substitute Redneck Rick with Sheriff Joe Arpaio and I'll say he thinks things don't apply to him. He's going through multiple investigations for this kind of stuff.
 

Dusty201087

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You know, I was going to come back and defend myself, but when I read that my post was actually being interpreted as me basically saying that this was equal to the holocaust, I think I'm just going to pan out. You can't win a fight with a zealot, and if I can't even give an example of what this is LIKE (certainly not what it IS) then I'll just shut up.
 

RenegadeDave

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Whenever anyone invokes comparisons of a law to Nazi, Germany without impeccable reasoning, I begin to call to question their statement.

If anyone ever calls a politician they do not agree with a Nazi, they have just raised a flag that they have no clue what they're talking about, period.
 

gunshow86de

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This is the only part i disagree with. We do not have a national language.
:scratch:

Are you joking? English is clearly the predominant language.

I think it's only fair that someone should learn the language when they immigrate to a new country, if only for safety reasons. I remember a few months ago when some states were trying to pass a bill for English-only driver's tests. It makes sense, because all street signs are in fucking English. But a bunch of idiots got all up in arms about it. Why should there be special exceptions because some people are too lazy to learn the language of the country they where they live? :nuts:
 

Customisbetter

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I think everybody should speak English as well, but until its a law, you have the right not to :shrug:
 

gunshow86de

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You know, I was going to come back and defend myself, but when I read that my post was actually being interpreted as me basically saying that this was equal to the holocaust, I think I'm just going to pan out. You can't win a fight with a zealot, and if I can't even give an example of what this is LIKE (certainly not what it IS) then I'll just shut up.

People are interpreting it that way because that's how you wrote it. You have to understand that by comparing this to Nazi Germany, you are going to (whether intentionally or not) imply that this is a human rights violation on the same level.

Also, I'm not quite sure you understand what the word zealot means. I don't think I saw anybody acting like one. Calling it a tragedy that millions of Jews were killed hardly fits.
 

orb451

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I think everybody should speak English as well, but until its a law, you have the right not to :shrug:

You're right, it's not a law and they do have a right not to speak the language. However, as gunshow86de said, it's a safety issue. I'd add that it's also common courtesy, is common sense and for the most part can only HELP these people in almost every aspect of their lives over here. If we went to Mexico to live permanently we could continue to speak English. I believe down there we'd share that same right, but, if we wanted to prosper, do well and blend into society, it would be in our best *interests* to learn Spanish, for safety, security and a host of other reasons mentioned above.

Going there to live permanently with the expectation that government officials, stores and residents should have to learn OUR language (English) would be, to me at least, beyond arrogant and self-centered.

I really don't get what is so hard to understand about that, not you Custom, but Latino's in general. It's not like your "Latino-ness" suddenly evaporates the moment you learn English.
 


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