# The Carvin / Kiesel thread



## soliloquy

i'm sure some of you saw this coming 

talk about carvins here. had/have one? liked one? hated one? 
favorite finishes?

pickups? necks?

etc etc....




i'm currently saving up for a Carvin CT24 of some sort. i'm leaning towards CT3 and CT4, but i may change my mind if post graduation i believe i'm worth it and self indulge a bit... 

only problem...if its a CT424 or CT324, the colors would be similar and fairly conservative, ie: basic default finishes and features. if its a CT6, then colors and options would be a bit different, maybe opt out for option 50 finishes, and even different woods and all.

and, aside from the CT, i'm also planning on getting a BOLT kit of some sort.


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## technomancer

Congrats on finally starting a thread instead of continuing to try to hijack other people's 

I've owned two Carvins:
Holdsworth H2 - all walnut, sounded and played amazingly well but I sent it back because it was a new purchase and there were some cosmetic issues with glue overruns on the neck. Nothing major, but enough given the massive drop in value used Carvins experience for me to not want to keep it.
Bolt - fixed bridge, HSS, maple top, birdseye board. Bought it used and it looked fantastic but was pretty meh tonally and didn't play terribly well either


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## vampiregenocide

I've played one, loved it, unfortunately now they're fucking expensive to get here in the UK. :/ One day.


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## Curt

Bought a C66 and dug the neck and the way it sounded after putting some dimarzio's in. but my tastes changed so I sold it. 

my new kick is single-cuts, so I may pick up a CS6 at some point.


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## gunch

I like the Holdsworth and C66.


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## soliloquy

i like how some of the C66/bolt plus guitars look kinda similar to Suhr and anderson guitars. they have the same vibe to em. 

one thing i'm kinda worried about is that i'd have to buy one sight unseen. 
and if i get a CT6, it would most likely void the 10 day return policy due to option 50s. what if i dont dig the guitar/neck or something? :S


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## gunch

soliloquy said:


> i like how some of the C66/bolt plus guitars look kinda similar to Suhr and anderson guitars. they have the same vibe to em.
> 
> one thing i'm kinda worried about is that i'd have to buy one sight unseen.
> and if i get a CT6, it would most likely void the 10 day return policy due to option 50s. what if i dont dig the guitar/neck or something? :S



Well it's just like Agile, albeit more expensive. Would Kurt take back full customs? I don't remember.





Also, Is Frank Gambale getting a signature model or is he just a new endorsee?

Edit: Cleaned it up, sorry Mods.


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## ShadyDavey

Frank's got a new sig. model out - the FG1:

Carvin Introduces the Frank Gambale FG1 Signature Guitar - Premier Guitar






Owned a couple of Carvins myself in the early 90's:

Reverse headstock DC135 with a Floyd H/S/H config, standard tone/splitter setup. I do believe it was Alder+Ebony board, standard dot inlays.....played beautifully but had problems with the locking nuts stripping so I replaced them with a quick release model a la Marty Friedman's V220. Original pickups were quite dull as I recall....solid but unspectacular. 

DC200 with the same wood combination, abalone block inlays, Floyd rose + Active EQ section this time. Played amazingly, sounded incredible (if perhaps a little processed) and I do believe that it's still played regularly by a friend's brother. There was an incident about 8 years back where the bridge saddles popped out but that was repaired with a sheet of brass which lent it a little bit of increased middle and other than that it's been a much-loved and solidly reliable piece. I should have kept hold of it I guess


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## Hybrid138

Here are some Carvin pics from users here for reference.
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/standard-guitars/157491-carvin-carved-top-club.html


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## Thrashmanzac

i've a carvin dc125 and it is the best guitar i have ever owned/played by a fair margin.
that being said, i have never played a prs, caparison, framus, shur, anderson, fender masterbuilt, kxk, brj and probably a few others.
yeah, my opinion is pretty much invalid


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## FACTORY

Can't wait til I can afford a DC.

Sneak preview of my possible future Carvin.


All natural tung oil. Mahogany body with 5-piece mahogany neck with two maple stripes. Stainless steel Jumbo Frets. Me need!

I call it the Carvin DC Face Eraser.


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## soliloquy

FACTORY said:


> Can't wait til I can afford a DC.
> 
> Sneak preview of my possible future Carvin.
> 
> 
> All natural tung oil. Mahogany body with 5-piece mahogany neck with two maple stripes. Stainless steel Jumbo Frets. Me need!
> 
> I call it the Carvin DC Face Eraser.



a guitar like that, or very similarly speced is sitting int he instock at the moment:
http://www.carvinguitars.com/images/guitars-in-stock/large/68675b.jpg

Carvin.com - Guitars In Stock :: Serial Number 68675


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## orakle

am i the only who thinks that 2+ knobs ruins the looks of a guitar?


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## ShadyDavey

orakle said:


> am i the only who thinks that 2+ knobs ruins the looks of a guitar?



You're certainly not alone but in this case I do have to say that the active EQ section from Carvin is completely killer - certainly worth the addition of a couple of extra knobs  

The extra output, tone shaping active/passive switching, and phase switching add a ton of versatility and let me be frank, huge balls to the guitar......to the point where switching out those somewhat lackluster Carvin pickups becomes redundant, and if you do decide to switch them out you can tweak an even wider array of tones. I would certainly love to hear it coupled with a nice set of Dimazrio's or BKP's.....


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## soliloquy

orakle said:


> am i the only who thinks that 2+ knobs ruins the looks of a guitar?



nope, you're not alone. im more minimalistic, so to me, less is more.

however, if more knobs are providing me with a peizo system and bunch of other stuff that is a tonal variety, then i'm all for it. i would rather have those knobs as push/pulls or have one slide toggle that does a few different things just to minimize the switches...

but with 4 knobs, i still dont understand why the CS doesn't offer peizo. maybe something to do with the carved tops?


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## FACTORY

soliloquy said:


> a guitar like that, or very similarly speced is sitting int he instock at the moment:http://www.carvinguitars.com/images/guitars-in-stock/large/68675b.jpg
> 
> Carvin.com - Guitars In Stock :: Serial Number 68675



Thanks man, she looks great. If I get the Carvin Face Eraser built I think I may have her built with only a volume and a selector switch as an off the books custom request (which you can do I'm told). Can't wait to get her built, I'll probably get the DC127 built over the DC400 simply because its the same but a few hundred $$$ cheaper. I may even get the words "Face Eraser" put on the truss rod cover for kicks!


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## soliloquy

FACTORY said:


> Thanks man, she looks great. If I get the Carvin Face Eraser built I think I may have her built with only a volume and a selector switch as an off the books custom request (which you can do I'm told). Can't wait to get her built, I'll probably get the DC127 built over the DC400 simply because its the same but a few hundred $$$ cheaper. I may even get the words "Face Eraser" put on the truss rod cover for kicks!



from what i understand, the DC400 is exactly the same thing as the DC127. the only difference is that the DC400 is slightly more expensive as it has the peizo/active electric system coming as standard. but you can opt that out, so getting yourself a DC127 for a bit more money. 

but from the specs and the picture, its bound to be a kick ass guitar!


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## soliloquy

carvin is now doing a "guitar of the week" kinda thing:


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## SirMyghin

Had a DC135M, had a few not nice spots on the ebony board, one looked almost like a drop of bleach got on it, and a very minor finish defect (like it was poked with a nail) when it arrived new. I shrugged them off and gave it 2 years hard play, no fretwear. Never bonded with the bridge pickup (m22sd) or the ToM. The twinblades were alright. Didn't like how light it was, or how the neck intersected with the body. It was not comfortable for me to play.

LB75 - a good solid bass, no noticable defects, plays extremely well, and I really like the MM style pickups. They forgot to install the second coil switch, and refunded me the 10$ or told me to return it. Given the top I was not going to let them drill anymore however. It has since had a waranty repair on the headstock as finish lifted on the tension side of the tuners... The truss rod also turns like a rusty gate which gets me weary/.paranoid occasionally if I need to make bigger adjustments. Never had a rod near that stuff, ever. 

C66C - Still have this one also, a very good guitar, but nothing exceptional. I upgraded the sustain block, pickups to bareknuckle, gutted and rewired it real special at Christmas, also installed a wrench holder. The neck is a bit thinner than I like but very playable. Fit and finish was excellent, needs a recessed trem cover... The inside routing on the floyd is also a touch sloppy, it looks like they went at it from both sides to route, and there is a slight lip you can see that was never sanded down in the finish process, this should have been addressed, I didn't notice until much later however it is minor. They also wired a bridge add switch completely wrong at the factory. 

My overall is - Good guitars, but the attention to detail is not what it needs to be to make them great or amazing guitars. There are a lot of improvements, most of which are not large that could be made. These improvements however are typically what separate the boutique from the 'regular' production shops. These are the kind of things that set guys like G&L, PRS,Suhr ahead of Carvin. 

As I have said before, Carvin is very appearance/aesthetically oriented to a fault almost. Their finishes rarely have issues, but everything else slips in consequence. The same can be seen with their option and model introduction in the last while (perloid buttons, white TRCs, another slightly different carved top shape, etc).

As far as Piezo, they don't offer it on their solid bodies as far as I know.


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## SnowfaLL

surprised to hear that from SirMyghin, since I believe you came from the Carvin boards?

I've always been super satisfied with my Carvins. The only concerns, are lacking of some specs that certain players may want (especially in the metal genre, such as lack of scale length options, etc)

I personally can't stand 25" scale guitars.. yes, that extra .5" makes a huge difference to me not only in feel but in tone. If they made a 25.5" CT624, i'd definitely order another. Considering a holdsworth but dunno if I really like that shape. I plan on trying out a Suhr soon once my friend gets his, and compare it to my Carvins.. I doubt they are $2000 better (as the price is) as I still would take a fully decked Carvin over other high-enders I've played before, but i'll see how substantial of a difference it is and decide.

For bass though, Carvin has all the options I'd ever want and best playing basses ive ever had.. I dont see myself going anywhere else for bass anytime, unless I look into graphite/carbon fibre options.


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## Jason2112

I had a CT3 and AE-185. The CT3 I sent back during the return period. The guitar itself was well-built and the Carvin pickups sounded awesome, but like a dummy I ordered it with a rosewood fingerboard and the rosewood on mine looked like it came from some cheap import. Real open grain, sticky, and hard to play. Had I ordered the ebony board I would have kept it because it was perfect as-is and sounded much better than the PRS CU22 I had at the time.

The AE-185 was just a fun and awesome guitar to play. I punch myself regularly for selling it, and I'd like to get another one but the current price is beyond what I can afford.


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## soliloquy

NickCormier said:


> *surprised to hear that from SirMyghin, since I believe you came from the Carvin boards?*



sirmyghin has voiced his opinion on the carvin bbs a few times as well though 

though you dont see his experience too often. maybe coz either people are too blinded by carvins looks? or i'm not sure (i cant say, dont have a carvin yet... ) but i'm not calling him a liar as there have been a few in the past that have had something similar in terms of wiring or something.



for those interested, not sure how accurate this review is:





Carvin Guitars - GuitarLodge.com Guitar & Bass Forum


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## HighGain510

SirMyghin said:


> My overall is - Good guitars, but the attention to detail is not what it needs to be to make them great or amazing guitars. There are a lot of improvements, most of which are not large that could be made. These improvements however are typically what separate the boutique from the 'regular' production shops. These are the kind of things that set guys like G&L, PRS,Suhr ahead of Carvin.
> 
> As I have said before, Carvin is very appearance/aesthetically oriented to a fault almost. Their finishes rarely have issues, but everything else slips in consequence. The same can be seen with their option and model introduction in the last while (perloid buttons, white TRCs, another slightly different carved top shape, etc).



That's pretty much my take on them after having ordered a half dozen new guitars from them and about a dozen used Carvins as well. 



SirMyghin said:


> As far as Piezo, they don't offer it on their solid bodies as far as I know.



The DC models that come with a hardtail or wilkinson trem have the option of getting the Fishman version with piezo saddles. Unless they've since done away with that, but I know I've had at least 4 that had piezo (the LB series basses can get the piezo option as well).


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## SnowfaLL

soliloquy said:


> sirmyghin has voiced his opinion on the carvin bbs a few times as well though
> 
> though you dont see his experience too often. maybe coz either people are too blinded by carvins looks? or i'm not sure (i cant say, dont have a carvin yet... ) but i'm not calling him a liar as there have been a few in the past that have had something similar in terms of wiring or something.
> 
> 
> 
> for those interested, not sure how accurate this review is:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Carvin Guitars - GuitarLodge.com Guitar & Bass Forum



Damn, just as I was starting to warm up to the CT shape instead of all the gasing for PRS... the side-by-side really shows how much better looking (shapewise) the PRS is. If only PRS had options on their guitars under the $3k range (maple fretboard being the main one I need)..

The Carvin CT shape is alright, but its not even close to being as hot as the PRS dc, imo.


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## soliloquy

NickCormier said:


> Damn, just as I was starting to warm up to the CT shape instead of all the gasing for PRS... the side-by-side really shows how much better looking (shapewise) the PRS is. If only PRS had options on their guitars under the $3k range (maple fretboard being the main one I need)..
> 
> The Carvin CT shape is alright, but its not even close to being as hot as the PRS dc, imo.



idk...i would say that the CT is closer to being a les paul double cut away, while the PRS is closer to being an arched top strat. they are fairly different, but i like em both equally just fine.


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## SirMyghin

Interesting seeing the PRS beside the Carvin, when I was last in a store I was shocked at how 'small' I percieved PRS's to be compared to say my ASAT or Contour. The carved top measures in near identical though, PRS looks a little wider at the butt, might have something to do with the percieved shortness though. The lower horn on the PRS looks a lot better, I have an occasional issue with carvins lower horn on my C66, don't get me started on the ASAT though, it is much tighter. 

And yes Nick, I post on the carvin forum occasionally. As I said they are good guitars, they are nothing close to a be all and end all instrument though, and those are what I tend to look for when I chase a sound. Typically something 'unreplacable' in that it cannot be simply improved and gives something entirely unique. My bass is still filling that void now, the assym Bunny neck is quite a nice thing. I do however want another string or 2 for my touch style work/practice.


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## soliloquy

humm, actually, from the picture posted, it seems that the shorter lower horn on the PRS is actually just shorter by a few milometers. the only difference is that carvin doesn't provide that cut away, as its all accessible. while PRS has that lil dimple on that horn, so it seems even shorter than what it actually is :S

heres another look:


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## Edika

Currently I have a DC400T and a DC747. The DC400 was my second and first good guitar so I was very impressed by it and it's options. When looking for a guitar back then I had a budget of around 2000 to 2500 Euros (didn't want to reach that but I would if I found the right guitar). I was after a soloist but they cost around 3000 Euros here. I went to several music stores and tried a couple of PRS standard guitars. I didn't have the chance to compare the PRS side by side with the Carvin (different music stores) but I was not so impressed with the sound of the PRS as much as the Carvin. Also the Carvin was cheaper and looked better. I love both guitars and think that the DC400's C22's have more than enough output. I haven't had the opportunity to play other high end guitars and to compare them side by side with the Carvin but what I get out of the Carvin really surprises me. And I love the piezo. When I first tried it with the clean channel of my triple rec the sound was amazing. Very alive. The DC747 doesn't have as much output as the DC400 put now that I found a good eq in my amp for it, I really like it's sound. Overall I am very happy with both guitars and am not planning to sell them. Only thing I don't like much us the absence of locking nuts in both guitars. It is better on the Wilkinson because it only dive, than the licensed floyd in the 7, but the sperzels don't hold the tuning all that perfect. 

If I ever have the pleasure to own a prs, a suhr, a jackon, a kxk, a brj or whatever high quality stuff exists, I may change my mind about Carvins. For the time being they sound amazing and they play great!


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## Jack Secret

OK, I have 4 Carvins now, 2 custom and 2 not my specs customs (1 from Carvin 'Guitars in Stock' page and 1 off ebay) and 2 more customs coming and all I can say is if I knew how good Carvin was for customs, I never would have bothered with Ibanez and all of you KNOW how much I loved Ibanez for many years. That's how good Carvin is. I played my V220 koa today from 11AM to 6:45 PM EST non stop and had no idea the time passed so quickly. That's a hell of a guitar right there.


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## f2f4

I've got an early nineties DC135T and absolutely love it. It's the best playing guitar I've owned to date. The only thing I don't love are the pickups. They're just not hot enough for me so I'm planning to replace them. They seem oddly twangy :/ I don't know if it's an older Carvin thing or what.


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## soliloquy

Jack Secret said:


> OK, I have 4 Carvins now, 2 custom and 2 not my specs customs (1 from Carvin 'Guitars in Stock' page and 1 off ebay) and 2 more customs coming and all I can say is if I knew how good Carvin was for customs, I never would have bothered with Ibanez and all of you KNOW how much I loved Ibanez for many years. That's how good Carvin is. I played my V220 koa today from 11AM to 6:45 PM EST non stop and had no idea the time passed so quickly. That's a hell of a guitar right there.



i know of the AC and the V220, but what other carvins do you have?


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## Zeff

I have had 4 Carvin's (currently 3, one was stolen)

I really like them, and they were all the DC 127/125 style. The 'holy grail' versions were considered 'pointy' from 92-94 ish. Those are hands down the best playing guitars I've ever had my hands on. They had very thin and very flat necks. The current neck style is much thicker than the early 90's ones.


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## Jack Secret

soliloquy said:


> i know of the AC and the V220, but what other carvins do you have?



What I gots so far...

Carvin AE185






Carvin CS6






Carvin TL60






Carvin V220


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## soliloquy

oh yeah, and i keep forgetting the CS6.
how are you liking that so far?
and what are the specs on em all?
as in, do they have different frets, or radii, or pickups etc? whats your favorite feature on em so far?













if anyone is interested in the carvin SH series guitars, then here is a VERY indepth review for it. its a VERY long read. but fairly detailed:




http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/guitar-amps-gizmos/10722-carvin-sh-550-comprehensive-evaluation.html


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## kherman

Carvin are still my main guitars and amps.
















I put Carvin right up there with ESP Standard, Jackson USA Select and Ibanez Prestige.
I've played Carvin for over 20 years now.
Am, I exclusive to Carvin?
No.
I also have a Gibby Explorer Pro, Parker Fly Deluxe, Edwards LP Custom, 2 Diodati LP style, Fernandes Ravelle Deluxe, Schecter V7, and a lefty Agile AD2500.
So, I'm definitely hitting a few different levels and price points.
But, the Carvins are still my main axes. My go to guitars.
They just feel right to me.
Carvin has also been very good about addressing and issues or concerns I've had. And quickly. I've never had an issue with the service or sales departments.


a few things I'd like to address that were mentioned or come up often.

Ebony boards:
Carvin "does not" dye their boards. Ebony naturally has blonde streaks in it.
So occasionally you may get a board with them in. They are not finish errors or a bleached spot. 
If it's an issue for you, then call Carvin when you order, and pay the extra $ for them to 
have the tech go through the pallets of wood and find the blackest board for you. 
Same goes for quilts and flames. If there a certain quilt or flame look you want, call and pay the extra, and request it. Sending a photo of exactly what you want helps.

Tongue oil neck tap off.
In the PRS/Carvin article.
That's not a finish flaw. That's just the way Carvin does it.
They don't tape off that last little bit of fretboard edge.
And I suppose if it really bothers you that much, you could score it with an exacto knife and peel it off yourself.
Otherwise, it doesn't hinder playability in any way.

Pickups.
I actually think Carvin makes decent stock pickups.
I personally think they are better than the IBZ, Duncan Design, EMG Select, Rockfield, Etc.. pickups you find stock on guitars.
And to me, pickups are like strings, everyone has their preference.
The pickup routes on the current Carvin 6s are larger now to accommodate the S22 pickups.
So, aftermarket fit isn't an issue anymore (except with the 7s).
So, have fun and trying out other pickups or stick with your prefer brand.
People swap out pickups all the time. And on all makes and models.

Build choices.
Practicality over bling.
Always choose your woods and options based on the tone and feel you are going after.
Not, by the eye candy.
I know it sounds like common sense. 
But, it's amazing how many people get the quilt, flame or walnut tops, maple necks, maple or ebony boards, etc..
Then complain it doesn't sound like a mahogany LP. 
And wonder why their guitars sounds bright.


Floyd Roses.
Carvin uses the (Schaller made) OFR.
Not the Korean OEM.
In the past Carvin has also used the Schaller Licensed Floyd and the Kahler Steeler.
The OFR and Steeler are great bridges. No issues with them. Both very solid trems.
The Schaller lic. = offered in early '90s. Had an issue with the saddle screws striping out the screw holes. Not just with Carvins. This bridge was also on Jackson, Hamer, and others at the time. As mentioned, Schaller has since remedied the issue and the base now has a steel strip that the screws screw into, instead of the pot metal base.
Again this was a Schaller issue. Not a Carvin, Jackson, Hamers, or etc.. issue.


Neck shape.
Call Carvin.
They do now offer different neck profiles as a hidden option.
Yes, it's an upcharge.

Prices.
Yes, most of the models are now reaching over the $1k mark.
Especially with options added.
With the USA cost of living constantly rising, we knew the a " decked out USA guitar for under 1K" had to end eventually. Carvin's not exempt from rising prices, insurances, and wages. 
Considering a majority of your USA made guitars are over $2k now, the $1k range Carvin isn't so bad.
Heck, a standard Gibby LP Studio (plain maple top) is over $1300 now.

My '09 ST300, I modeled after the Jackson Soloist SL2 MAHQ.
The ST300 with case and shipping came out to $1560.
A SL2 MAHQ would have cost me $2400.
No I don't get the neck binding like the Jackson.
But, I do get SS frets, which the MAHQ doesn't have.
Which would require me to go to the Jackson Customshop and cost me closer to $3k then.

Resale.
Really depends on the options you chose.
The more common and simple you keep it, the better the resale.
The more out there you get, the lower the resale.
And obviously, certain models fair better than others.
The CT and CS fetch more than the DCs.
Over all, Carvin resale has improved over the years as Carvin has become more widely known. You're not getting loaded DC400s for $300 anymore. Those days are gone.
And are Jackson, Ibanez, and ESP, or even Hamer or Heritage doing any better?

Yeah, I think it's getting tougher to justify the price of any USA made guitar.
Especially, as the Asian guitars keep getting better and better and staying under $1k.


Overall, I still think Carvin is a great deal, and you get a lot for the price.


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## SirMyghin

kherman said:


> Tongue oil neck tap off.


Tung oil..



> Pickups.
> The pickup routes on the current Carvin 6s are larger now to accommodate the S22 pickups.
> So, aftermarket fit isn't an issue anymore (except with the 7s).
> So, have fun and trying out other pickups or stick with your prefer brand.
> People swap out pickups all the time. And on all makes and models.



This is false, what you have said pertains ONLY to ring mounted pickups. Direct mount pickups have not changed.


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## kherman

SirMyghin said:


> Tung oil..
> 
> 
> 
> This is false, what you have said pertains ONLY to ring mounted pickups. Direct mount pickups have not changed.




You are correct.
I forgot about the Bolt + and C66.
But, I did remember the 7s. Which are direct mounted as well.


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## SirMyghin

kherman said:


> You are correct.
> I forgot about the Bolt + and C66.
> But, I did remember the 7s. Which are direct mounted as well.



That you did, just don't want people getting false hope, I had to take a dremel to my pickups AND the routes to get a set of BKPs (open coil) in there. A steady hand and balls of steel won the day though . I was lucky that the pickups were a good match after all that work too, was getting worried doing it.


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## Edika

Which year did they change the routing job? My DC400 was made in 2006 and has the regular pickups from Carvin. I could measure the size of the pickup with the ring but don't have any other guitar with me now as a reference.


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## SirMyghin

^ Shortly after they released the S22s for each model, was originally only the CTs iirc. 2008 or so ballpark I think. My best detective work is Winter NAMM 2008, with the introduction of the CS line, so might of been available slightly before but not much.


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## Edika

I still like the pickups but it would be cool to try something different. Oh well I'll have to buy another Carvin to do that hehehehe!!


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## Nile

I did play this Bolt in a MusicGoRound and found it to be thin sounding and just flat feeling, nothing surprised me about it.
But I'm guessing that was a dud.


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## Edika

I am a bit surprised with the frets on my DC400. They seem to get oxidized pretty easily, especially when not playing the guitar. I am guessing they are nickel-silver but they seem to be really dull and greenish. Strange thing is that the DC747 which must also have nickel silver frets (they have fret wear from use) doesn't seem to have the same effect after several months since it's last polishing. I have the bag of salts in the case to keep the humidity in check but it is strange nevertheless and annoying.

Another strange thing about the DC400 is the weird smell the gloss finish has. It is rather strong even after 4 years I own the guitar and while not unpleasant it is different from the smell of other guitars I had.


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## ghost2II2

Carvin's are beautiful guitars. I've had a couple of friends who have owned one at one time or another, and while they played nice, they never really spoke to me. One thing I would say is that if you want a Carvin, get one. But if you want a PRS, why settle for a CT? Get the PRS.


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## Hybrid138

I think I remember someone saying that they sent some pickups to Carvin for their 7x7 and Carvin installed them as an option 50?


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## SirMyghin

Hybrid138 said:


> I think I remember someone saying that they sent some pickups to Carvin for their 7x7 and Carvin installed them as an option 50?


Carvin has always refused to do this, for any pickups, any model.


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## Hybrid138

Hmmm. Sorry, then I must be remembering incorrectly. I could have sworn someone said something along those lines. Well, hopefully they will increase the size of the routes or maybe make pickup rings an option so people can get rid of the rings and use normal pickups.


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## soliloquy




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## soliloquy

apparently they are slashing prices on showroom guitars as well.


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## soliloquy

whow! the new moss green finish looks amazing:


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## Ascension

Owned a "couple" of Carvins over the years. Like the 88-92 shreadder neck stuff a LOT the newer neck profiles and tones with the graphite rods in particular from 95 up not so much.


----------



## soliloquy

the white DC looks AWESOME


----------



## Kabstract

Are the Carvin pickups they sell individually any good? I'm looking at the covered ones specifically. It would be going into a LP type guitar (mahogany body and neck, ebony fretboard). It'd be doing metal (think 90's Megadeth and maybe even similar to Metallica's Load tone)

For distortion on the bridge, I want it to sound nice and full for powerchords and defined for chugs.

For the neck, I would like nice smooth, clear leads. 

Clean tone isn't a big deal for the bridge, but I love nice gassy cleans on the neck.


Can any of the pickups do this, or would I be better off with Dimarzio or SD and the likes?


----------



## SirMyghin

the pickups are very good clean, but I have found them severely lacking presence driven, a lot of them are scooped. You would be much better off with Dimarzio and SD, there are as many folks who don't like carvin pickups as those who do.


----------



## soliloquy

Kabstract said:


> Are the Carvin pickups they sell individually any good? I'm looking at the covered ones specifically. It would be going into a LP type guitar (mahogany body and neck, ebony fretboard). It'd be doing metal (think 90's Megadeth and maybe even similar to Metallica's Load tone)
> 
> For distortion on the bridge, I want it to sound nice and full for powerchords and defined for chugs.
> 
> For the neck, I would like nice smooth, clear leads.
> 
> Clean tone isn't a big deal for the bridge, but I love nice gassy cleans on the neck.
> 
> 
> Can any of the pickups do this, or would I be better off with Dimarzio or SD and the likes?



it depends on who you read regarding carvin pickups. for every person that says carvin pickups suck, you get another person saying they rock. 

and every one of their pickups seems to do 'great cleans' 'great distortions' 'balls' 'smoothness' 'fatness' along with the 'soul less' 'horrible cleans' 'thin' etc...

i know, i'm no help here, but carvin pickups seem odd when you read reviews.


----------



## Kabstract

Yeah, from what I've read elsewhere their pickups seem to be love or hate.


----------



## Neponen

I have had two Carvins.
My first one was Carvin CT4M with TOM and string-thru body. Pickups were Seymour Duncan Hot Rod set (JB and '59). I loved that guitar. Its tuning stability was awesome and sound was big and thick. Never should have let go of her.

My second one was Carvin DC135 with wilkinson tremolo bridge. Pickups were EMG 81/SV/SA. If it would have had jumbo frets and Floyd rose tremolo I would still have it. Great guitar in metal stuff tho.

Pics can be found here.
Carvins pictures by Ceresoft - Photobucket

If you want to get a PRS style guitar with your own specs and can't afford custom shops, then Carvin CT4 and CT6 are your choice.
If you wan to get a Shredder or 80's rocker guitar then DC-series is your choice.


----------



## AvantGuardian

Here's my SH275. Awesome guitar in every way. My next guitar will likely be a DC727.


----------



## HighGain510

Kabstract said:


> Are the Carvin pickups they sell individually any good? I'm looking at the covered ones specifically. It would be going into a LP type guitar (mahogany body and neck, ebony fretboard). It'd be doing metal (think 90's Megadeth and maybe even similar to Metallica's Load tone)
> 
> For distortion on the bridge, I want it to sound nice and full for powerchords and defined for chugs.
> 
> For the neck, I would like nice smooth, clear leads.
> 
> Clean tone isn't a big deal for the bridge, but I love nice gassy cleans on the neck.
> 
> 
> Can any of the pickups do this, or would I be better off with Dimarzio or SD and the likes?



I thought the Carvin stock pickups were very good clean, but with high gain applications I absolutely hated them. Wooly in the bass section and especially so on their 7-string sets (when you REALLY need tightness in the low-end, go figure ) and fairly scooped in the mids. The M22SD is REALLY bright too, or at least it was in the guitar I had it in (walnut).


----------



## SirMyghin

The M22SD is absurdly bright, even in stock wood.


----------



## GuitaristOfHell

These are sex. I have yet to play a Carvin too


----------



## HighGain510

SirMyghin said:


> The M22SD is absurdly bright, even in stock wood.



Okay then it wasn't just me.


----------



## nostealbucket

I got my DC727 in february. I love it to death. Best $1100 I ever spent.

Carvin should make 8 strings.


----------



## GuitaristOfHell

nostealbucket said:


> Carvin should make 8 strings.


 You just won the thread. Agreed.


----------



## SirMyghin

HighGain510 said:


> Okay then it wasn't just me.



It was the only Carvin pickup I have ever preferred the driven voice to the clean voice, it was too much for cleans.


----------



## nostealbucket

GuitaristOfHell said:


> You just won the thread. Agreed.



 YEAH! I'M SPECIAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

seriously. DC828. Think about that pure sex... that GAS inspiring sex...


----------



## GuitaristOfHell

nostealbucket said:


> YEAH! I'M SPECIAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> seriously. DC828. Think about that pure sex... that GAS inspiring sex...


But it would need a good longer scale too. 29" maybe?


----------



## nostealbucket

GuitaristOfHell said:


> But it would need a good longer scale too. 29" maybe?



Fo' sho. it could be...  a neck option  . Customer's choice. 25" (high A) and up to 30". If that would ever happen 

It could possibly happen.
It would give a good bit of 8 string makers (strictly 7, ibanez, agile...) a good bit more competition. I mean, a USA custom-made 8 string starting at less than 1,000 (lets hope so). Hells yes.


----------



## SirMyghin

Consdering Carvin doesn't do a long scale 7, or even a 24 fret 25.5" scale 6, I wouldn't hold your breath.


----------



## nostealbucket

SirMyghin said:


> Consdering Carvin doesn't do a long scale 7, or even a 24 fret 25.5" scale 6, I wouldn't hold your breath.



Yeah. Just a silly thought


----------



## soliloquy

so....i've narrowed down my decision onto these guitars. a CT624 in tiger eye with thin blackburst, or a CS6 moss green guitar. they would look kinda like this:





and this is a 'concept' as the original guitar doesn't exist...







i always like the idea of a singlecut. to me they feel more solid and look sexier. plus that neck joint seems to be calling me. but on the other hand, i really want 24 frets.

yeah, i will prolly end up getting both sometime down the line. but what do i get first? :S both would cost me about 1700 and 1650 respectively, so its not that big a difference to write home about...:S


----------



## Kabstract

CT624 oh my god, it is beautiful. I would trade my LTD EX 401DX and my LTD Deluxe H1001fm for it holy shit it looks so nice.


----------



## soliloquy

Kabstract said:


> CT624 oh my god, it is beautiful. I would trade my LTD EX 401DX and my LTD Deluxe H1001fm for it holy shit it looks so nice.



 already a head of you.
i'm selling 4 of my guitars to get a carvin. just dont know if i want a singlecut or a CT 

i just hope carvin would be worth selling 4 guitars for...


----------



## SirMyghin

Your picture is a CT6 not a CT624, remember then made the neck a little longer and move the bridge up, which I find looks funny. I don't like the bridges that far forward either.


----------



## soliloquy

SirMyghin said:


> Your picture is a CT6 not a CT624, remember then made the neck a little longer and move the bridge up, which I find looks funny. I don't like the bridges that far forward either.



i know, but there is no ct624 with a tiger eye and black burst (not to my knowledge at least). so if i do get a CT624, it would be based on that guitar but i'll prolly throw zebra pickups in there and most likely no inlays... 













on an unrelated note, heres another option 50 color/fade....i think it was niknamed 'Bahamas burst'?


----------



## Kabstract

/\ I like it!


I shouldn't have come in here, I want a Carvin really badly now!


----------



## Rapture

I want one of those early 90s Carvins. They look REALLY nice.


----------



## soliloquy

just random stuff coz i'm bored




http://carvinguitars.com/bbs/userpix/243_DSC03474_6.jpg





http://carvinguitars.com/bbs/userpix/5291_IMG_24344_1.jpg





http://carvinguitars.com/bbs/userpix/5291_IMG_24302_1.jpg





http://carvinguitars.com/bbs/userpix/5291_IMG_23922_1.jpg


----------



## refried bean

This is my Carvin DC400 (camera is set at lowest quality sound and video). Love the thing to death. Amazing fretboard access and versatility. Great for rock, metal (including the djenty kind), and fusion. I've played guitars that have had better woods and playability like some Tom Andersons, Suhrs, and Tylers...but for the price Carvin completely destroys, especially since you're pretty much getting everything YOU want for less than 2,000$.


----------



## deathjazz89

Teach me your ways, Brian.


----------



## FACTORY

Here's another Carvin I won't mind owning one day.


----------



## refried bean

deathjazz89 said:


> Teach me your ways, Brian.




Woah...do I know you fellow SJ citizen?


----------



## deathjazz89

Only from the Racer-X forum and a bassist we both have jammed with. Remember Steve Schlinkert?


----------



## soliloquy

> To kick off Carvin's 65th Anniversary, the Custom Shop is offering our best deals ever on new guitars and basses. In addition to a $100 Instant Rebate, Free Standard Case, and 50% off all options, you can now take an additional $100 off all options on your new Custom Shop build. Exotic woods, finishes, inlays, fretwire, electronics upgrades - pick your Custom Shop options for your new build, and we'll take an extra $100 off the price of the options!
> 
> So, if you pick options that total over $100, then we'll take $100 off the total of the options. If your options total less than $100, we'll take off whatever that amount is.
> 
> So, do the math - now is the time to save some big bucks on your new guitar or bass!




i'm wondering how long this will last. keivo said that the month of august is their anniversary, so perhaps till the end of august. but they themselves dont know as this is the first time they are doing it.

i hope this lasts till at least october. should have my guitars sold by then...


----------



## AvantGuardian

soliloquy said:


> i'm wondering how long this will last. keivo said that the month of august is their anniversary, so perhaps till the end of august. but they themselves dont know as this is the first time they are doing it.
> 
> i hope this lasts till at least october. should have my guitars sold by then...





Awesome. I was specing out a dc747 this morning and noticed the $100 rebate and was wondering how long that will last. I'll probably be placing the order in a couple of weeks, so hopefully I'll still be good to get the rebate.


----------



## soliloquy

AvantGuardian said:


> Awesome. I was specing out a dc747 this morning and noticed the $100 rebate and was wondering how long that will last. I'll probably be placing the order in a couple of weeks, so hopefully I'll still be good to get the rebate.



now i'm getting really antsy. 
i have 3 guitars 'sold: pending payment' to two buyers. they both are 'working on getting the cash'. i just hope its before this sale runs out


----------



## soliloquy




----------



## Jack Secret

My newest order is placed, Carvin fans! Hopefully will be here in less than a month. I like to call this one "Inlays? We don't NEEEEEEEED no stinkin' inlays!"

Especially inlays that look like sperm. LOL


----------



## soliloquy

Jack Secret said:


> My newest order is placed, Carvin fans! Hopefully will be here in less than a month. I like to call this one "Inlays? We don't NEEEEEEEED no stinkin' inlays!"
> 
> Especially inlays that look like sperm. LOL



less than a month? :O did you ask carvin to do a rush-build? 
they normally take about 6-8 weeks. few instances where they have built it in 5 though...and this time of the year, i'd assume they are super busy?


----------



## Jack Secret

soliloquy said:


> less than a month? :O did you ask carvin to do a rush-build?
> they normally take about 6-8 weeks. few instances where they have built it in 5 though...and this time of the year, i'd assume they are super busy?




Yup, asked for the rush build. Nothing fancy on it so maybe even faster.


----------



## cwhitey2

the only one i have or played is my DC127... :/


BUT that guitar destroys anything else i have played, i just with there were more around...me


----------



## Viginez

my favorite


----------



## engage757

This is one of my best friend's Carvin Customs. And I do stress "One of". 






I have a few Carvins as well, but this one is just incredible. Burl birdseye. ftw.


----------



## engage757

Just recently sold this.


----------



## Church2224

engage757 said:


> This is one of my best friend's Carvin Customs. And I do stress "One of".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have a few Carvins as well, but this one is just incredible. Burl birdseye. ftw.



Yeah last time I checked Rob had like 200 guitars, a lot of them being Carvins .


Some awesome Carvins in this thread! Keep posting them!


----------



## engage757

Not mine and shitty pics but dayum.


----------



## engage757

Church2224 said:


> Yeah last time I checked Rob had like 200 guitars, a lot of them being Carvins .
> 
> 
> Some awesome Carvins in this thread! Keep posting them!




Check again.  closer to 350. 

I bought probably forty from him already. My fiancee hates it when I go see Rob. 

you should hear that fucking guy shred!!! insanity.

And his taste in his custom builds is impeccable.


----------



## engage757

Not mine either.


----------



## Church2224

I have Friday off this week. I will snap some photos of my DC400CW and post them here hopefully that morning.


----------



## -42-

This has me all in a tizzy. Namely the one-piece top and body.


----------



## Jack Secret

Guess what, kids? Selling off more guitars and getting a total of three Carvins in January!
You know what that means........JACK'S CARVIN WINTER! (A three part series - soon in guitar forums near you)


----------



## engage757

let's bump this back up...


----------



## Jack Secret

Why are we bumping this? Cause it frickin' became a six part series? 

Hello...My name's Jack. I'm a guitaraholic. I need a 12 stomp box program.


----------



## engage757

well Jack,

Cause I want to hear more about this Carvin Winter.


----------



## Jack Secret

engage757 said:


> well Jack,
> 
> Cause I want to hear more about this Carvin Winter.



I left hints in my sig.  (well, hints gone now. Don't need them if I'm showing it all)

well fine...here are the six incoming Carvin guitars - due anywhere from early Feb to early March (unless Carvin is running behind)

1. DC400 in purple quilt triple step stain on mahogany body w/ maple top, mahogany neck w/ 2 maple stripes, neck thru, black hardware, S22 pickups, tune-o-matic bridge, black hardware, satin back of neck finish, med jumbo steel frets, pointy reverse headstock, ivory tusq nut, ebony board and no frickin' inlays.

2. V220 in deep orangeburst quilt on mahogany body w/ maple top and mahogany neck, neck thru, S22 pickups, gold hardware, Floyd w/ nut, pointy reverse headstock, satin back of neck finish, med jumbo steel frets, ebony board, no frickin' inlays

3. [FONT=&quot]CT424 in candy red metallic, mahogany body w/ maple top. set in mahogany neck, Holdsworth 2/4 headstock, C22 pickups, black hardware, Ivory tusq nut, [/FONT]satin back of neck finish, med jumbo steel frets, ebony board and no frickin' inlays.

4. CS624 in red quilt triple step stain, mahogany body /w maple top, set in mahogany neck, c22 pickups, Floyd w/ nut, 2 volume/tone w/ push/pull pots, black hardware, satin back of neck finish, med jumbo steel frets, ebony board and no frickin' inlays.

5. HH2 headless model hardtail in seafoam green, chambered alder body, set in maple neck, H22 pickups, JCustom bridge, black hardware, satin back of neck finish, med jumbo steel frets, ebony board and no frickin' inlays.

6. B24S 4 string bass in ferrari red, alder body, 5 piece maple neck, neck thru, humbuckers, Hipshot D-tuner, Ivory tusq nut, black hardware, satin back of neck finish, med jumbo steel frets, ebony board and no frickin' inlays.

So yeah, these days I'm big on satin back of neck finish, med jumbo steel frets, ebony board and no frickin' inlays.

Plus, I totally love the CT model carve tops right now. If they announce a CT 24 fret hollowbody at NAMM 2012, I'm all over that. (Carvin seems to not wait for NAMM for announcements so who knows if it's coming)

Hey guys, it's my 25th year of playing guitar. I'm fucking all out celebrating for this. Just awaiting the blizzard. 

No worries either. Lots of pics and maybe even some unboxing videos.


----------



## engage757

Here is one of my keepers... Kiesel Private collection of wood. Handbuilt by Mark. Quilted Crotch maple. It looks like you could dive in and take a swim. Sorry for my laziness, I just snapped a few quickies.


----------



## soliloquy

Jack Secret said:


> I left hints in my sig.  (well, hints gone now. Don't need them if I'm showing it all)
> 
> well fine...here are the six incoming Carvin guitars - due anywhere from early Feb to early March (unless Carvin is running behind)
> 
> 1. DC400 in purple quilt triple step stain on mahogany body w/ maple top, mahogany neck w/ 2 maple stripes, neck thru, black hardware, S22 pickups, tune-o-matic bridge, black hardware, satin back of neck finish, med jumbo steel frets, pointy reverse headstock, ivory tusq nut, ebony board and no frickin' inlays.
> 
> 2. V220 in deep orangeburst quilt on mahogany body w/ maple top and mahogany neck, neck thru, S22 pickups, gold hardware, Floyd w/ nut, pointy reverse headstock, satin back of neck finish, med jumbo steel frets, ebony board, no frickin' inlays
> 
> 3. [FONT=&quot]CT424 in candy red metallic, mahogany body w/ maple top. set in mahogany neck, Holdsworth 2/4 headstock, C22 pickups, black hardware, Ivory tusq nut, [/FONT]satin back of neck finish, med jumbo steel frets, ebony board and no frickin' inlays.
> 
> 4. CS624 in red quilt triple step stain, mahogany body /w maple top, set in mahogany neck, c22 pickups, Floyd w/ nut, 2 volume/tone w/ push/pull pots, black hardware, satin back of neck finish, med jumbo steel frets, ebony board and no frickin' inlays.
> 
> 5. HH2 headless model hardtail in seafoam green, chambered alder body, set in maple neck, H22 pickups, JCustom bridge, black hardware, satin back of neck finish, med jumbo steel frets, ebony board and no frickin' inlays.
> 
> 6. B24S 4 string bass in ferrari red, alder body, 5 piece maple neck, neck thru, humbuckers, Hipshot D-tuner, Ivory tusq nut, black hardware, satin back of neck finish, med jumbo steel frets, ebony board and no frickin' inlays.
> 
> So yeah, these days I'm big on satin back of neck finish, med jumbo steel frets, ebony board and no frickin' inlays.
> 
> Plus, I totally love the CT model carve tops right now. If they announce a CT 24 fret hollowbody at NAMM 2012, I'm all over that. (Carvin seems to not wait for NAMM for announcements so who knows if it's coming)
> 
> Hey guys, it's my 25th year of playing guitar. I'm fucking all out celebrating for this. Just awaiting the blizzard.
> 
> No worries either. Lots of pics and maybe even some unboxing videos.



jack, i know you dont know him, as you're much much newer to remember him, but you are now the new Rob_l! 
heres some of his collection before he decided to sell most of his stuff. i think at his peak he had over 220 guitars, most of those were carvins, then warriors, then jackson, and then ALL other brands below it :






















































unfortunetly...he seemed to have deleted most of his pictures online, so unless someone has em saved up, its really hard to come across the thousands of pictures he took..

and yes, when he was active, it was very common to see him have multiple 'ngds' in one day 

oh, and if i remember correctly, because he ordered from carvin so often, carvin actually made him an NS (classical nylon string guitar) complementary on carvin as a thank you gesture. he was the first to own numerous different models/woods that carvin offered as well


----------



## Jack Secret

Well, I did sell most of my Ibanez mid last year and a few more before the holidays. My guitar max is not going above 25. I was near 50 but with that many, a lot are not gonna see any love. 25 will be good. 

Besides, you think my guitar collection is bad, I got tons of stomp boxes and effects processors going back those 25 years. I found an old Yamaha effects processor that still has all my old edited settings. I liked a gnarly distortion in those days let me tell you. It was like wrapping lit firecrackers in aluminum foil.

I should also mention sol here inspired me to get purple quilt on the DC400. That CS6 came out gorgeous.


----------



## soliloquy

Jack Secret said:


> I left hints in my sig.  (well, hints gone now. Don't need them if I'm showing it all)
> 
> well fine...here are the six incoming Carvin guitars - due anywhere from early Feb to early March (unless Carvin is running behind)
> 
> 1. DC400 in purple quilt triple step stain on mahogany body w/ maple top, mahogany neck w/ 2 maple stripes, neck thru, black hardware, S22 pickups, tune-o-matic bridge, black hardware, satin back of neck finish, med jumbo steel frets, pointy reverse headstock, ivory tusq nut, ebony board and no frickin' inlays.
> 
> 2. V220 in deep orangeburst quilt on mahogany body w/ maple top and mahogany neck, neck thru, S22 pickups, gold hardware, Floyd w/ nut, pointy reverse headstock, satin back of neck finish, med jumbo steel frets, ebony board, no frickin' inlays
> 
> 3. [FONT=&quot]CT424 in candy red metallic, mahogany body w/ maple top. set in mahogany neck, Holdsworth 2/4 headstock, C22 pickups, black hardware, Ivory tusq nut, [/FONT]satin back of neck finish, med jumbo steel frets, ebony board and no frickin' inlays.
> 
> 4. CS624 in red quilt triple step stain, mahogany body /w maple top, set in mahogany neck, c22 pickups, Floyd w/ nut, 2 volume/tone w/ push/pull pots, black hardware, satin back of neck finish, med jumbo steel frets, ebony board and no frickin' inlays.
> 
> 5. HH2 headless model hardtail in seafoam green, chambered alder body, set in maple neck, H22 pickups, JCustom bridge, black hardware, satin back of neck finish, med jumbo steel frets, ebony board and no frickin' inlays.
> 
> 6. B24S 4 string bass in ferrari red, alder body, 5 piece maple neck, neck thru, humbuckers, Hipshot D-tuner, Ivory tusq nut, black hardware, satin back of neck finish, med jumbo steel frets, ebony board and no frickin' inlays.
> 
> So yeah, these days I'm big on satin back of neck finish, med jumbo steel frets, ebony board and no frickin' inlays.
> 
> Plus, I totally love the CT model carve tops right now. If they announce a CT 24 fret hollowbody at NAMM 2012, I'm all over that. (Carvin seems to not wait for NAMM for announcements so who knows if it's coming)
> 
> Hey guys, it's my 25th year of playing guitar. I'm fucking all out celebrating for this. Just awaiting the blizzard.
> 
> No worries either. Lots of pics and maybe even some unboxing videos.



jack, i know you dont know him, as you're much much newer to remember him, but you are now the new Rob_l! 
heres some of his collection before he decided to sell most of his stuff. i think at his peak he had over 220 guitars, most of those were carvins, then warriors, then jackson, and then ALL other brands below it :



























unfortunetly...he seemed to have deleted most of his pictures online, so unless someone has em saved up, its really hard to come across the thousands of pictures he took..

and yes, when he was active, it was very common to see him have multiple 'ngds' in one day 

found the link where he got a free guitar:
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/st...carvin-ns1-mesa-recording-preamp-gmajor2.html


----------



## engage757

soliloquy said:


> jack, i know you dont know him, as you're much much newer to remember him, but you are now the new Rob_l!
> heres some of his collection before he decided to sell most of his stuff. i think at his peak he had over 220 guitars, most of those were carvins, then warriors, then jackson, and then ALL other brands below it :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> unfortunetly...he seemed to have deleted most of his pictures online, so unless someone has em saved up, its really hard to come across the thousands of pictures he took..
> 
> and yes, when he was active, it was very common to see him have multiple 'ngds' in one day
> 
> oh, and if i remember correctly, because he ordered from carvin so often, carvin actually made him an NS (classical nylon string guitar) complementary on carvin as a thank you gesture. he was the first to own numerous different models/woods that carvin offered as well




Yeah, I bought a TON of ROb's guitars. He and I actually met through a friend of our at SamAsh who had sold us each at least 100 guitars. We started hanging out and trading guitars, then when he would get tired of something, I would just buy it from him. Our tastes are VERY similar. That blue denim above is my main baby. And I owned all of those Warrior's as well. And as for Rob?

He doesn't play much anymore, just kind of noodles around. he is an excellent guitarist that would put 99.9% of the metal guitarists around to shame. He is really into guns now.  He is actually the guy that showed me this site to begin with!!!

But anyway, Rob is one of my closest friends, and yes, a lot of my guitars were purchased from him. He even has several of mine in there. 

Oh yeah, and at last count? his collection was around 350 when he stopped.  And we are talking everything from Hetfield tour guitars to carvins to ESPs to Jackson to PRS Dragons. He has sold quite a few of those to me for my collection. 

He got me into Carvin! I was a PRS/Jackson junky until I met him. He showed me Caparison and carvin and I never looked back... Except, well, a few times.


----------



## soliloquy

delete


----------



## engage757

oh yeah, and the teal one is my pic.  THe chair ones are his.  The Ikea in front of the C24.  

That I WANNNNNNTTTT!!!!!!!! Rob's studio is so sick! I thought he might open a commercial one, but I think he decided not to.


----------



## soliloquy

engage757 said:


> Yeah, I bought a TON of ROb's guitars. He and I actually met through a friend of our at SamAsh who had sold us each at least 100 guitars. We started hanging out and trading guitars, then when he would get tired of something, I would just buy it from him. Our tastes are VERY similar. That blue denim above is my main baby. And I owned all of those Warrior's as well. And as for Rob?
> 
> He doesn't play much anymore, just kind of noodles around. he is an excellent guitarist that would put 99.9% of the metal guitarists around to shame. He is really into guns now.  He is actually the guy that showed me this site to begin with!!!
> 
> But anyway, Rob is one of my closest friends, and yes, a lot of my guitars were purchased from him. He even has several of mine in there.
> 
> Oh yeah, and at last count? his collection was around 350 when he stopped.  And we are talking everything from Hetfield tour guitars to carvins to ESPs to Jackson to PRS Dragons. He has sold quite a few of those to me for my collection.
> 
> He got me into Carvin! I was a PRS/Jackson junky until I met him. He showed me Caparison and carvin and I never looked back... Except, well, a few times.




you my friend have some 'splaining to do.....with pictures! and lots of them!

by any chance, did you get a hold of his spalted top CT? would love to see pics of those and the denim again. 

as far as i remember, he never got too many CS carvins. i remember his one white CS4. if i'm not mistaken, he was the first to get an option 50 to cover the back with white as well.

and what ever happend to his NS1? 
and whatever happened to all his pictures? does he have em backed up somewhere?


----------



## engage757

oh yeah, and Mesh has his favorite Jackson too! STUNNING.


----------



## engage757

soliloquy said:


> you my friend have some 'splaining to do.....with pictures! and lots of them!
> 
> by any chance, did you get a hold of his spalted top CT? would love to see pics of those and the denim again.
> 
> as far as i remember, he never got too many CS carvins. i remember his one white CS4. if i'm not mistaken, he was the first to get an option 50 to cover the back with white as well.
> 
> and what ever happend to his NS1?
> and whatever happened to all his pictures? does he have em backed up somewhere?




Haha my collection is big, and very nice, but Rob has the GAS collection ftw. The sheer magnitude of wht he still has is ridiculous. I have been over there before and opened a case and found guitrs he didn't even know he had! Rob is the best guitarist I know and his collection is better than anyone's alive I dare say.

He was the first white back I believe. And yes, the NS-1 is still around, I have played it. very smooth. and it came with a card signed by the boys from carvin! Don't know why he deleted all his pictures. Don't think he cares much anymore. The denim is mine but the Spalt top I am not sure I have seen. I sold a spalt top 12 string that I bought from him awhile ago. Is that the one you mean?


----------



## Hybrid138

I love that denim. It's a shame it's not a regular color option. I miss Rob's NGDs...


----------



## Jack Secret

Engage, do you approve of what I'm getting for my prospective guitar winter forthcoming?

I mean, it's coming that way whether anyone approves or not. LOL


----------



## soliloquy

jack, i'm honored that my guitar inspired your DC400 



engage757 said:


> Haha my collection is big, and very nice, but Rob has the GAS collection ftw. The sheer magnitude of wht he still has is ridiculous. I have been over there before and opened a case and found guitrs he didn't even know he had! Rob is the best guitarist I know and his collection is better than anyone's alive I dare say.
> 
> He was the first white back I believe. And yes, the NS-1 is still around, I have played it. very smooth. and it came with a card signed by the boys from carvin! Don't know why he deleted all his pictures. Don't think he cares much anymore. The denim is mine but the Spalt top I am not sure I have seen. I sold a spalt top 12 string that I bought from him awhile ago. Is that the one you mean?



and no, the spalted top CT6 i'm talking about was, also, i believe the first spalted CT carvin made. it was a 6 stringer. when he took pics of it, unlike all the others he took, this guitar was modeled around in his kitchen. its top was unlike any other spalted top i saw. it was more like an ancient map rather than spalted maple. truley beautiful!


----------



## engage757

Jack Secret said:


> I left hints in my sig.  (well, hints gone now. Don't need them if I'm showing it all)
> 
> well fine...here are the six incoming Carvin guitars - due anywhere from early Feb to early March (unless Carvin is running behind)
> 
> 1. DC400 in purple quilt triple step stain on mahogany body w/ maple top, mahogany neck w/ 2 maple stripes, neck thru, black hardware, S22 pickups, tune-o-matic bridge, black hardware, satin back of neck finish, med jumbo steel frets, pointy reverse headstock, ivory tusq nut, ebony board and no frickin' inlays.
> 
> 2. V220 in deep orangeburst quilt on mahogany body w/ maple top and mahogany neck, neck thru, S22 pickups, gold hardware, Floyd w/ nut, pointy reverse headstock, satin back of neck finish, med jumbo steel frets, ebony board, no frickin' inlays
> 
> 3. [FONT=&quot]CT424 in candy red metallic, mahogany body w/ maple top. set in mahogany neck, Holdsworth 2/4 headstock, C22 pickups, black hardware, Ivory tusq nut, [/FONT]satin back of neck finish, med jumbo steel frets, ebony board and no frickin' inlays.
> 
> 4. CS624 in red quilt triple step stain, mahogany body /w maple top, set in mahogany neck, c22 pickups, Floyd w/ nut, 2 volume/tone w/ push/pull pots, black hardware, satin back of neck finish, med jumbo steel frets, ebony board and no frickin' inlays.
> 
> 5. HH2 headless model hardtail in seafoam green, chambered alder body, set in maple neck, H22 pickups, JCustom bridge, black hardware, satin back of neck finish, med jumbo steel frets, ebony board and no frickin' inlays.
> 
> 6. B24S 4 string bass in ferrari red, alder body, 5 piece maple neck, neck thru, humbuckers, Hipshot D-tuner, Ivory tusq nut, black hardware, satin back of neck finish, med jumbo steel frets, ebony board and no frickin' inlays.
> 
> So yeah, these days I'm big on satin back of neck finish, med jumbo steel frets, ebony board and no frickin' inlays.
> 
> Plus, I totally love the CT model carve tops right now. If they announce a CT 24 fret hollowbody at NAMM 2012, I'm all over that. (Carvin seems to not wait for NAMM for announcements so who knows if it's coming)
> 
> Hey guys, it's my 25th year of playing guitar. I'm fucking all out celebrating for this. Just awaiting the blizzard.
> 
> No worries either. Lots of pics and maybe even some unboxing videos.




I would be down for a hollowbody as well! I really wish more of mine were satin finished. When I sell off a few more and order a few new ones they will all be satin backed necks. Your batch is gonna be SICK! Love the Orangeburst! Did you choose top woods?


----------



## Jack Secret

engage757 said:


> I would be down for a hollowbody as well! I really wish more of mine were satin finished. When I sell off a few more and order a few new ones they will all be satin backed necks. Your batch is gonna be SICK! Love the Orangeburst! Did you choose top woods?



Everything has a maple top except the B24S bass. Mahogany w/ maple top is my favorite. Another secret most people who don't deal in Carvin know is that both the C22 and the S22 pickups are fantastic. I'm playing my CS6 right now and I get that Gary Moore tone with my pedalboard settings (Still tryin' for that one long ass sustained Parissienne Walkways note...I get a good long sustain but I think Gary sold his soul to Satan for the privilege of that note). I love the S22's so much now. I put C22's in the forthcoming carve tops just for a different dynamic but Carvin can make one (or two) hell of a in house pickup.

Satin on the back of the neck has become another favorite. The gloss on the back of my CT624 doesn't bother me really but the satin feel on my Icon 4 bass (of all things) is just magic.


----------



## Jack Secret

soliloquy said:


> jack, i'm honored that my guitar inspired your DC400
> 
> 
> 
> and no, the spalted top CT6 i'm talking about was, also, i believe the first spalted CT carvin made. it was a 6 stringer. when he took pics of it, unlike all the others he took, this guitar was modeled around in his kitchen. its top was unlike any other spalted top i saw. it was more like an ancient map rather than spalted maple. truley beautiful!




Gotta admit the spalt on my TL60 came out gorgeous.


----------



## soliloquy

Jack Secret said:


> (*Still tryin' for that one long ass sustained Parissienne Walkways note...I get a good long sustain but I think Gary sold his soul to Satan for the privilege of that note*).



i cant find that video, but the longest i've seen him sustain that note was in a video that was about 6 minutes long. he sustained that note for about 29 or 31 seconds (normally he does around 24-25 seconds). 

if you notice the way he plucks/strums his strings before, he does em fairly hard. but as soon as he hits his note, it goes softer. maybe it has something to do with that? 
 
plus, we have seen him do a volume swell with his pinky hitting the volume knob on the guitar. i wont be surpirsed if there is also a volume pedal mixed with it?

then there are others that believe that that sustain kind of goes in a natural harmonic/feedback which can be seen here:


but either way, that song alone made me REALLY wanna see him live...i guess thats one thing i regret not doing before i die


----------



## Jack Secret

Yeah, next month is a year since he passed. I don't usually get in a funk when a "celebrity" passes but I was in a funk for a week. Lord knows what'll happen when Steve Howe goes.


----------



## JPMike

I love my Fatboy!! 

Deffo buying the Headless Holdsworth too!!


----------



## Spamspam

I hate you guys.... Sigh.... I need to win the lottery.
I just have the one lonely CS6, so far... But I love it so. Some folks complain about Carvins pups, but I love the sound. The neck is perfect for my hands, the fit and finish are fantastic. I've played a crapload of guitars in my life (been playing for 27 years) from PRS to LP's. And I have never been this happy with a guitar. Some folks call Carvin the "poor mans PRS", I firmly believe that Carvin stands next to PRS as more than an equal. (Especially since he sold out, and started spitting out crap.) 
I've posted pics of my CS6 on other threads, but this looks like an appropriate thread to slap it on the glass again.
Seriously though.. Jack, and engage... I hate you guys... So jealous...


----------



## soliloquy

/\ there there. buy a carvin for special occasions? 
i got my cs6 for me graduating from university.
next time i buy one will either be when i get an actual job that isn't retail or services related (thats all the experience i have though  ) or when i get married (both should be this year...hopefully i get a job before that though!

anyways, i cant believe the quilt on this. its perfectly matched and insane:





bigger pic and details are here:
http://www.carvinguitars.com/guitars-in-stock/single.php?Serial=112677


----------



## Jack Secret

What I love (and hate) about the Carvin Guitars In Stock page is you gotta be quick on the trigger. There was one guitar I saw just a day or so ago, pondered it for too long (if you call 45 seconds long) , went to buy and she was GONE! I then yelled "KHAAAAAAAAAN!" which seemed appropriate.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Jack Secret said:


> I then yelled "KHAAAAAAAAAN!" which seemed appropriate.


 
ALWAYS appropriate for such situations


----------



## soliloquy

Jack Secret said:


> What I love (and hate) about the Carvin Guitars In Stock page is you gotta be quick on the trigger. There was one guitar I saw just a day or so ago, pondered it for too long (if you call 45 seconds long) , went to buy and she was GONE! I then yelled "KHAAAAAAAAAN!" which seemed appropriate.



 the word 'khan' is funnier to me and other asian dwelling folks from pakistan/india/saudi area as that is a family name for a really REALLY large family. and yes, i'm a part of that family

hadi khan here


----------



## kherman

One can never have enough Carvins!!


----------



## soliloquy

kherman said:


> One can never have enough Carvins!!



correction: one can never have enough of ONE model of Carvin!


----------



## Xykhron

Here's mine (got some others in the past but only this right now), a DC400 Ruby Red bought secondhand and then customized:











I've modded/customized it with these items:
- Dimarzio X2N PU at bridge
- BKP Nailbomb alnico PU at neck
- series/parallel switch for neck PU
- phase switch
- kill switch
- removing the active & integrated circuitry
- tremol-no
- Punisher like truss rod cover
- 0.68 string gauge custom 6th tuner Sperzel

Good guitar, with good neck and sound.


----------



## soliloquy

/\ whoa! you better be calling that the 'eye of Jupiter!' the quilt pattern next to the neck pickup are insane! 

what other carvins have you had?


----------



## Xykhron

owned in the last years a DC135 in plain black, a DC200 in natural quilt finish and a Bolt in white.

The finish of my DC400 is called "burled" if I'm not wrong, like a mixture of flamed and quilt


----------



## soliloquy

some of rob_ls carvin guitars that he used to own?:


----------



## ROCKCRUE1

Man this is one of THE best threads ever...


----------



## craigny

New to the Carvin brand..long time gas now an owner and let me tell you....my next guitar will be a custom order....they are awesome...heres my CT4M


----------



## Jack Secret

I have decided the new name for my 7 custom guitar strong Carvin excursion will be "Anthony's Carvinsanity Tour 2012". Stay tuned, should have 2 NGD's by end of the month, 1 in Feb and 3 in March. It shall be glorious.


----------



## soliloquy




----------



## Jack Secret

If anyone is interested in seeing the Carvin booth, there's a UStream feed going on.

Carvin.com - Guitars, Amplifiers & Pro Audio: NAMM 2012


----------



## DavidLopezJr

Jack Secret said:


> If anyone is interested in seeing the Carvin booth, there's a UStream feed going on.
> 
> Carvin.com - Guitars, Amplifiers & Pro Audio: NAMM 2012


Thanks!


----------



## itsallinmyh3ad

My CT3M. Absolutely love it. Gonna customize it a bit with a Seymour Duncan Modular Preamp. I already want another Carvin.


----------



## soliloquy

not mine, but this is too beautiful to not bump again:
tung oiled carvin dc127


----------



## Spamspam

That one would be so nice if it didn't have that god forsaken wilkie on it. Beautiful, but I HATE Wilkies, that is my biggest deal breaker.


----------



## soliloquy

carvin should bring this back!


----------



## -42-

ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu~


----------



## soliloquy

/\ yes, carvin is doing black binding on guitars that carry bindings...but only on special request. they have to flip the turtule shell binding over to get the black look

would love to see a white CT with black binding


----------



## soliloquy

good god al'mighty! 





Carvin.com - Guitars In Stock :: Serial Number 114040


----------



## Hybrid138

the holdsworth headstock is available on CTs now??? Wow, it looks good. Wish mine had one.


----------



## soliloquy

not mine, but sure is a looker:


----------



## soliloquy

just bumping this up:
this is owned by 'Hybrid138' of SS.org





and 'Highgain510' used to own this beauty:








anyways, now that the headless carvins are out, its interesting to see the other holdsworth guitars (the older ones with headstocks) are now being tossed on ebay. some for really nice prices too. for anyone who wants the older holdsworth, now would be the ideal time to get a used one

its surprising at how well the headless are being sold. before carvin, i didn't really hear much about them. but maybe thats due to steinberg guitars kind of being there, but not really. so i guess carvin tapped into a niece market. 

kinda surprised rondo didn't pickup on this. maybe scarcity of parts?


----------



## mishabasi

May as well put up my new baby. I'm in love with this guitar! Carvin is the shit!


----------



## soliloquy

there is a review for the CT624 up here by a relatively new reviewing company
MusicPlayers.com: Reviews > Guitars > Carvin CT624 California Carved Top Electric Guitar


----------



## 0 Xero 0

Does anyone have a carvin with a flamed birch top? How do they affect the timbre of the guitar relative to maple?


----------



## soliloquy

0 Xero 0 said:


> Does anyone have a carvin with a flamed birch top? How do they affect the timbre of the guitar relative to maple?



 flamed birch? 

you mean white birch that is used for their holdsworth guitar? i could be wrong, but the holdsworth series comes with white birch top as a standard (where as the CT/CS4 comes with plain maple as standard, etc). but you can change that by adding a maple/koa/walnut/etc top.

cant say on the tone because as far as i know, thats the only guitar that uses that wood. however, going by how that wood is used in drums and amps quiet often to boost their high and low frequencies, id assume its a fairly complex tonewood to use. from what its descriptions say, it seems like a match between maple and mahogany. 

no idea about the weight though


----------



## 0 Xero 0

Yeah, the white birch tops on the carvins are flamed. I didn't mention weight in my post, haha. I realize that particular species only comes on the holdsworth models, so I'm curious if anyone has tried it. 

Regardless of whether or not anyone has tried a birch topped holdsy, why is there only one holdsworth sig in this thread? I want to see more of em in here!


----------



## soliloquy

/\ well, holdsworth wasn't relaly too popular until the headless model showed up.
or rather, the holdsworth appealed to a niche market, where as the headless appeals to a much larger variety of folks. and since the headless is new, you wont see much of that, but on SS.org, i think we already have 4 NGD threads dedicated to them. 


at the same time, the birch used on holdsworth, and even googling it, i cant find any flamed birch specimen. i'm curious to see which ones you're talking about.

for example, this piece here is birch:




http://www.carvinguitars.com/guitargallery/images/full/h2-natural-92210.jpg

while this piece here is flamed maple;




http://www.carvinguitars.com/guitargallery/images/full/hh2-nwal-ftca.jpg

and in case you wanna see more pics:
Carvin.com - Guitar & Bass Galleries




but yeah, i dont think birch has the ability to flame/quilt/burl/birds eye in any significant way. it seems to be a dense wood, but it never really grows that large, or maybe its too strong to form any figures? (i could be wrong...i'm usually wrong...) but yeah


----------



## 0 Xero 0

Any wood can be found figured. The amount of figure depends on a lot of different things. For example, a spalt top is wood that had a fungal infection and a burl is the result of abnormal growths on a tree. You're right, there is no flamed birch option. I misread and saw white birch with a picture of flamed maple.


----------



## right_to_rage

I want to share a picture of my Holdsworth Fatboy model Carvin. This guitar has been inspiring and a joy to play since it was shipped to my door step after a two month wait. I've used it mainly for six string material. 

Heres a shot of the top, one piece maple neck unlike my DC800 which has a 5 piece koa/maple neck.


----------



## Fiction

That's an insane Fretboard!


----------



## 0 Xero 0

I agree with Fiction, that fretboard is amazing! Also, kudos for the radiation green. I haven't decided if I like that color enough that I'd get it on one of my guitars yet. What body materials did you choose? I really want a deep greenburst hf2 with a blackburst and black hardware though


----------



## soliloquy

i'm not that big a fan of radgreen myself, but this is really growing onto me:


----------



## right_to_rage

Thanks guys! I decided on Alder as the body wood because of its balanced tonal qualities. I wanted to play it safe by choosing a middle of the road tone wood and I'm glad I did because it sounds great.


----------



## 0 Xero 0

@Soliloquy - Don't get me wrong, I like the color, but it has to match the guitar. It's not a color I'd get all of my guitars finished in.

@right to rage - If I get an hf2 sometime in the future, I think I'll get the same specs that are on Misha's. He said it sounds amazing but he also said he's played several other hf2s and h2s and that his sounds better than any other he's played. I don't know if that's true or if it's just his perception because he bonded with that instrument or something... I hope it's the latter because I'd be bummed if I ordered one and it didn't wow me.


----------



## soliloquy

this is a golden video! watch it!


----------



## Shannon

0 Xero 0 said:


> Regardless of whether or not anyone has tried a birch topped holdsy, why is there only one holdsworth sig in this thread? I want to see more of em in here!


Here ya go! Mine....
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/standard-guitars/197703-ngd-carvin-hh2x-holdsworth-headless-dragonburst-flame.html


----------



## zilla

soliloquy said:


>




oh. my. god.

This is completely blurred the line between "want" and "need"

Do you happen to know the specs on this or what the colour is called?


----------



## LetsMosey

zilla said:


> oh. my. god.
> 
> This is completely blurred the line between "want" and "need"
> 
> Do you happen to know the specs on this or what the colour is called?



This is an "Option 50" paint job, and I believe this was Rob L's old guitar before he sold it/gave it away. I also believe this is a Denim finish with a blackburst border on a flame-maple top. It's not a standard finish that's offered, so you would need to call and speak with a Carvin sales rep over the phone to place this special order. If you do, I'd recommend you send them a picture of this guitar and let them know you want one like it so their painters can try and re-match the paint job on yours.


----------



## zilla

Thanks for the info. man that thing is gorgeous.

Do you know if there are any other photos of this particular guitar out there?


----------



## LetsMosey

zilla said:


> Thanks for the info. man that thing is gorgeous.
> 
> Do you know if there are any other photos of this particular guitar out there?



I don't know if there are any others of this exact guitar... but here are a few pics of other Carvin models with a similar denim finish (some have blackburst and some dont)...


----------



## soliloquy

zilla said:


> Thanks for the info. man that thing is gorgeous.
> 
> Do you know if there are any other photos of this particular guitar out there?



engage757 of sevenstring.org has that guitar now:


----------



## Papaoneil

One of my favorite 6 string Carvins is HighGain510's fatboy that he had for sale for that short time, would have loved to nab that one

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/st...en-ngd-carvin-hf2-koa-content-its-fatboy.html


----------



## Kabstract

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/standard-guitars/200674-ngd-carvin-gk1p-xxx.html


Just got a Carvin GK1P kit, and it is superb! Incredible quality I am so impressed.


----------



## soliloquy

carvin did another multi-color fade. this would be the third guitar they have done this way. 





the second one can be seen here:




source: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/standard-guitars/200482-carvins-custom-ocean-fade-finish-ct624.html

and while we are at it, i feel like whoring my guitar some more:


----------



## Jack Secret

My three orders are due within a month! Time...must...move...faster.


----------



## soliloquy

/\ how many carvins do you have (have you had all together, year to date?)

and after you get the 3 in a month, how many would that put you up to?


----------



## Jack Secret

Hmm....

Let's see...

CS6 (in natural flame) which honestly is the only Carvin I would probably part with.
CS624 (in ruby red quilt)
CT624 (in dragonburst quilt)
CT424 (in dandy candy red metallic)
V220 KOA (the koa body/koa top also known as the Koa-splosion)
HH2 (in decidingly not seafoam green so I call it minty green)
AE185 (in bluebursty flame and housing a Roland GK-3 MIDI pickup)
LB70A bass (in orange honey quilt)
ICON 4 bass (in deep orangeburst flame)

incoming

DC600 in swamp ash / classic sunburst and the new active pups
DC600 in alder / translooseygoosy purple and the new active pups
Ultra V in ferrari red with black burst egdes

So's that'll put me at 9 electrics, 1 acoustic/electric/midi and 2 basses for Carvin

Still have 3 Caparisons (Horus Snow Cloud, Dellinger custom and TAT Special Amber) and my one custom Itsafakeanez 540PII.

Conversely, the last Ibanez I owned (a LA custom Santolla) is on it's way to Hawaii. Can't really count my 540PII custom as an Ibanez since Nate Perle made the body and neck. 

That'll keep me happy for awhile. No promises if Carvin bringing in something new again. Honestly, they do awesome work and anyone who bashes them probably never tried one. I was only disappointed once and that was a Guitars In Stock purchase. 

Do have a 5150 III 50w head and 2x12 cabinet order just waiting for inventory to come in because I'm lacking a decent tube amp.


----------



## potatohead

Had a Bolt Plus, but sold it. It was a good guitar but I am a 24 fret guy

Currently own a JB200C and have a DC700 on order. Also have a V3M head with a Carvin 212


----------



## soliloquy

Jack Secret said:


> Hmm....
> 
> Let's see...
> 
> CS6 (in natural flame) which honestly is the only Carvin I would probably part with.
> CS624 (in ruby red quilt)
> CT624 (in dragonburst quilt)
> CT424 (in dandy candy red metallic)
> V220 KOA (the koa body/koa top also known as the Koa-splosion)
> HH2 (in decidingly not seafoam green so I call it minty green)
> AE185 (in bluebursty flame and housing a Roland GK-3 MIDI pickup)
> LB70A bass (in orange honey quilt)
> ICON 4 bass (in deep orangeburst flame)
> 
> incoming
> 
> DC600 in swamp ash / classic sunburst and the new active pups
> DC600 in alder / hell yeah yellow metallic and the new active pups
> Ultra V in ferrari red with black burst egdes
> 
> So's that'll put me at 9 electrics, 1 acoustic/electric/midi and 2 basses for Carvin
> 
> Still have 3 Caparisons (Horus Snow Cloud, Dellinger custom and TAT Special Amber) and my one custom Itsafakeanez 540PII.
> 
> Conversely, the last Ibanez I owned (a LA custom Santolla) is on it's way to Hawaii. Can't really count my 540PII custom as an Ibanez since Nate Perle made the body and neck.
> 
> That'll keep me happy for awhile. No promises if Carvin bringing in something new again. Honestly, they do awesome work and anyone who bashes them probably never tried one. I was only disappointed once and that was a Guitars In Stock purchase.
> 
> Do have a 5150 III 50w head and 2x12 cabinet order just waiting for inventory to come in because I'm lacking a decent tube amp.



you know what we all need? a family picture!!!


----------



## Narrillnezzurh

This is a silly question, but I'll ask anyways. The nut on my DC400 looks really, really similar to the fretboard material. Are the nuts on Carvin guitars part of the fretboard, or are they just glued on like on every other guitar in the world?


----------



## Jack Secret

soliloquy said:


> you know what we all need? a family picture!!!




Oh my! Forgot my spalted maple top TL60! My first Carvin order to ever come in!

REVEL IN THE SPALTINESS!


----------



## soliloquy

Narrillnezzurh said:


> This is a silly question, but I'll ask anyways. The nut on my DC400 looks really, really similar to the fretboard material. Are the nuts on Carvin guitars part of the fretboard, or are they just glued on like on every other guitar in the world?



i forgot the name of it, but its plastic. 
nuts commonly come in two different colors, which are black (the one you have that blends in with ebony), and tusq which looks like creamy color.

there are other nuts out there too such as
bone: made from crushed bone. not sure of what animal though
brass: supposed to add mass and sustain, but really expensive to work with
nickle: same as above


----------



## LetsMosey

I have this beauty of a DC600 on the way 






And I'm sure I will cherish her just as much as my DC127.


----------



## soliloquy

LetsMosey said:


> I have this beauty of a DC600 on the way
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I'm sure I will cherish her just as much as my DC127.



just curious as to why you picked white pickups?

with a maple fret board, the pickups would blend in much nicer?


----------



## Patriclese

From another thread - My sapphire blue ST300. I love this thing and have since done these upgrades:

- DiMarzio Mo' Joe in bridge and pending Pro Tracks for neck/middle
- Floyd Upgrades Brass Big Block and pending brass claw
- Floyd Upgrades noiseless springs

I may replace the capacitor on the tone pot, but enough from me - take a look:


----------



## LetsMosey

soliloquy said:


> just curious as to why you picked white pickups?
> 
> with a maple fret board, the pickups would blend in much nicer?



Because I didn't choose any black hardware, and there isn't much black in Carvin's DTS Teal, I thought black would be just too drab. I love the way cream pickups look, but I think they just didn't look good having plastic that's a similar color to the fretboard. (I had cream p'ups in my DC127M and CT624M w/ maple board.) And I love the way the white pickups just stand out and match the white carvin logo. And yes I think it blends much nicer with the board overall than say creme or black pickups. But hey, these can always be swapped out later if I change my mind. I think it looks great.


----------



## Jack Secret

Just scored this HF2 on the 'bay for a cool 5 bills (that's $500 to the unhip). Could not say no for that BIN price.


----------



## MFB

That's a fucking score


----------



## right_to_rage

That is an insane score, congrats!! :jealous:


----------



## Jack Secret

Ok, as the old adage goes, promises are made to be broken. I sold my Caparison Horus last night and actually went to bed saying "I hope nothing pops up so nice and a nice price that I'll end up buying it".

Famous last words. followed up with "f**k me sideways" because of this.

A dead mint CT624 (my favorite of all the Carvins) with a koa top and no inlays and med jumbo steel frets and a floyd and 5 piece mahogany/maple striped neck? 

I may as well have ordered it myself. 

All this for for $1000.

It has Duncans in there and I'll try them out bet on the off chance I'll change 'em out, maybe I'll drag out an olf DiMarzio Air Classics set for it. If they sound great, they stay. I'm not a pickup snob, I use what sounds best to me.

You know, There's two pieces of advice I follow that were given to me by people other than my dear father (when applicable) 1. My business professor at NYU said "If you're going to steal, steal big" and a old time studio guy who said "when you're on a roll, don't question why you're rolling, just roll with it".

$1500 for this and the HF2, I would think in a Carvinite's eyes, constitutes a roll.


----------



## LetsMosey

Congrats man! Those are two insane scores at ridiculously great prices. Guitar Center's used site has some awesome looking old-school pointy-winged DC127's that I'm looking at that are pretty good prices. However I can't afford them, so I figured I'd tip you off to add to your "roll"


----------



## Jack Secret

LetsMosey said:


> Congrats man! Those are two insane scores at ridiculously great prices. Guitar Center's used site has some awesome looking old-school pointy-winged DC127's that I'm looking at that are pretty good prices. However I can't afford them, so I figured I'd tip you off to add to your "roll"




Nah, my roll is done (look! more famous last words!) I have these two coming in and my 3 customs in September so I'm pretty content with the collection. 16 guitars 90% of them wildly different from each other except the two DC600's when they're done and even then, different woods. Lot different when every Ibanez I had was basswood and PGM's were the same guitar with different paint.

I am gonna keep the Ibanez PL2660 Rhoads V looking guitar. I'm deciding what I should get it painted because she's got scars and I want to make it nice again. I may have to do it myself because some painters won't do neck-thrus.

Thanks for the kind congrats, tho. They're very good prices, I think. Least on the HF2 I can get my Steve Howe early Yes kick in. Apparently, she's loud as hell even when played acoustically. Gotta love semi-hollowbodies.


----------



## LetsMosey

Jack Secret said:


> Nah, my roll is done (look! more famous last words!) I have these two coming in and my 3 customs in September so I'm pretty content with the collection. 16 guitars 90% of them wildly different from each other except the two DC600's when they're done and even then, different woods. Lot different when every Ibanez I had was basswood and PGM's were the same guitar with different paint.
> 
> I am gonna keep the Ibanez PL2660 Rhoads V looking guitar. I'm deciding what I should get it painted because she's got scars and I want to make it nice again. I may have to do it myself because some painters won't do neck-thrus.
> 
> Thanks for the kind congrats, tho. They're very good prices, I think. Least on the HF2 I can get my Steve Howe early Yes kick in. Apparently, she's loud as hell even when played acoustically. Gotta love semi-hollowbodies.



Speaking of repainting, I'm considering sending my first DC127 to Carvin for a re-finishing job. I purchased it off-the-rack at the LA Carvin store for a "scratch n dent" price, so I couldn't really complain; however, she's gotten more battle wounds over the years that I'm really tempted for Carvin to do a complete refinish for the $300-$500 price tag they ask. Might also be a cheap way to cure some GAS as this would be a way to completely change the color and essentially seem to get a "new" guitar. lol.


----------



## Jack Secret

LetsMosey said:


> Speaking of repainting, I'm considering sending my first DC127 to Carvin for a re-finishing job. I purchased it off-the-rack at the LA Carvin store for a "scratch n dent" price, so I couldn't really complain; however, she's gotten more battle wounds over the years that I'm really tempted for Carvin to do a complete refinish for the $300-$500 price tag they ask. Might also be a cheap way to cure some GAS as this would be a way to completely change the color and essentially seem to get a "new" guitar. lol.




Oh, me too. I didn't even know they did that until someone on the Carvin forum told me. I may end up doing it as well and get the CS6 painted another color.


----------



## soliloquy

in my day-dreaming state, i've hit a dilemma of sorts. 
for the longest time i wanted a white carved top 24 fret guitar.
but at the same time, i've always wanted a 24 fretter 'exotic' top guitar with tung oil finish. 

i was thinking the latter wouldn't happen any time soon as i dont like the any other carvin models except the california carved top series. and adding exotic tops to those can get really expensive really quick. so i was set on a CT424 in classic white and everything else basic.

but then the god damn DC600 came along. i can get a plain walnut top on that, with a hog back for less than the CT424...

now i'm wondering which one should i get? :S


----------



## HighGain510

Killer deals on the HF2 and CT Jack, both are gorgeous!


----------



## timbucktu123

what exactly is a rush build?


----------



## potatohead

timbucktu123 said:


> what exactly is a rush build?


 
You can pay $100 to have the guitar built in about four weeks. Right now it doesn't save much time, it seems they are on about a 5 - 6 week schedule, but when it's up at 8 weeks it may be worth it.


----------



## timbucktu123

potatohead said:


> You can pay $100 to have the guitar built in about four weeks. Right now it doesn't save much time, it seems they are on about a 5 - 6 week schedule, but when it's up at 8 weeks it may be worth it.



oh i see is that considered an option 50?


----------



## soliloquy

timbucktu123 said:


> oh i see is that considered an option 50?



kind of. it would be considered an option 50 in the sense that its not offered online. however, it wont void your 10 day request *********

**** unless you request something totally unusual like trans black with pink/purple burst edges





actually, that doesn't sound too bad


----------



## esphil

Sup all, I'm new to the forum and have been reading thru the thread. I have 5 Carvins currently and looking to build a 7 or 8 string next. Here are some of mine:







I'm replacing the V with some miracle man pickups I purchased off a member here. I'm excited to see how it will sound.


----------



## Black Mamba

^ Nice collection, I love the Dole sticker on the Ultra V.


----------



## Cancer

Ascension said:


> Owned a "couple" of Carvins over the years. Like the 88-92 shreadder neck stuff a LOT the newer neck profiles and tones with the graphite rods in particular from 95 up not so much.




Dibbs if you ever sell the black X220, I've been looking for one forever.


----------



## purpledc

hmm a carvin thread im not in yet? heres the two I have left. 














































My SH550


----------



## soliloquy

/\ what happened to your other guitars? i remember you having a DC127, another CT6m, and a 7 stringer?


----------



## purpledc

soliloquy said:


> /\ what happened to your other guitars? i remember you having a DC127, another CT6m, and a 7 stringer?




I had a sunsetburst CT6 and a DC700 but I traded them off. The go to their new home tomorrow. Just wanting to try something different.


----------



## cajunboy2k

soliloquy said:


> not mine, but sure is a looker:



Hey...those are mine.

Thanks for the compliment.

Wow, Just realized that I signed up here 6 years ago and this is my first post.

cajunboy2k


----------



## soliloquy

/\ belated 'welcome to the forum!' XD


----------



## soliloquy

figured these belong here too:












this is NOT MINE!!! i looked around and couldn't find this here. so here you go:



Scott said:


> New DC700 has arrived! Shipped out early and it got here one day before the due date on the card. That was awesome enough, but then I opened it. Admittedly, I was going for a similar look to a PRS fade I liked. Took a couple short go arounds to get it communicated properly and I ended up improving a couple specs as well. What I ended up with was a defined quilt with natural binding edge, rosewood fretboard with abalone sig inlays, matching reverse 3x4 headstock with abalone logo, cream pups, gold hardware with a string thru, and a clear solid koa back. I'm calling the color Oceanfade. It has a waves on the beach effect. With the water on top and the natural koa back, its really got an elemental quality to it. The fade between colors is incredibly gradual, especially the green going to natural. I can't believe how slight and delicate that part is. I don't have this reverse headstock option on anything before this and dig how it looks so much more like the Holdsworth this way. I didn't want a really metal pointy stock on this one. The koa on this is extremely vibrant and reflective of light, like good koa should be. The guitar is incredibly light weight as are my other DC700's. I have to admit that when I get a new Carvin, I have come to expect greatness. They have raised the bar so high that there's a lot that can't touch them. However, its still just unbelievable how perfect these guitars are each time I get them. Thanks to Keith for working with me and everyone at Carvin for another masterful guitar!
> 
> Sound wise, this thing is the freakin' Kraken. I'm going to attribute it to the koa. I don't actually have an all koa Carvin as of yet. Apparently I was missing out. I should've known that with Carvin's usual killer sound, adding koa would be this beastly. It has depth, just enough bass, brutal crunch, and my god - the harmonics are so aggressively delicious. I got passive pups on this one because I can't say I'm 100% happy with the actives that are stock in these. Its funny because the way this one sounds, its like all the best attributes of an active loaded growling guitar, but with the actual tone of the wood omni-present and none of the too over-driven active downsides. I'm just going to say it, this may be the best sounding Carvin I've gotten yet. Very, very difficult to stop playing this one. Here's the visuals:





source:
Carvin.com BBS :: View topic - NGD: Elemental Oceanfade DC700


----------



## SuperMutant

What finish is this?


----------



## soliloquy

SuperMutant said:


> What finish is this?



its deep black cherry:
Carvin.com BBS :: View topic - New Finish: Deep Black Cherry


----------



## Jack Secret

You guys are ignoring my NGD Carvin threads. This hurts me.


----------



## Indigenous

I suppose this belongs here, since there aren't too many of these floating around yet.


----------



## SuperMutant

soliloquy said:


> its deep black cherry


 Ah thanks, that color with blackburst edges would be amazing.

On the carvin site it says I can pay per month for the guitar? Someone please explain this to me unless its as simple as it sounds..


----------



## potatohead




----------



## jordanky

I've built like six CT624's on Carvin's website in the last few hours. Seriously considering dropping a down payment on something tonight haha.


----------



## potatohead

jordanky said:


> I've built like six CT624's on Carvin's website in the last few hours. Seriously considering dropping a down payment on something tonight haha.


 
Only six?


----------



## soliloquy

jordanky said:


> I've built like six CT624's on Carvin's website in the last few hours. Seriously considering dropping a down payment on something tonight haha.



do it!!!!






SuperMutant said:


> Ah thanks, that color with blackburst edges would be amazing.
> 
> On the carvin site it says I can pay per month for the guitar? Someone please explain this to me unless its as simple as it sounds..




if i'm not mistaken, i think its as simple as it sounds. it'll be put on carvins credit card and you can just pay that off in monthly installments. 

best to call them and find out though.


----------



## soliloquy

which one...they both are pretty:


----------



## SYLrules88

hey, a brand thread that Im actually worthy to post in! 

ive had my DC800 since early feb i think, and i picked up the bass used sometime in early 2010 i thinks.


----------



## zilla

soliloquy said:


> which one...they both are pretty:



That... is nice.


----------



## brett8388

Has anyone ordered one of the new Jason Becker signature Carvins? I was thinking about getting one but I've never owned a Carvin. Please PM me if you have details to share. Thanks.


----------



## soliloquy

brett8388 said:


> Has anyone ordered one of the new Jason Becker signature Carvins? I was thinking about getting one but I've never owned a Carvin. Please PM me if you have details to share. Thanks.



just a few posts above, potatohead posted his becker guitar.


----------



## cajunboy2k

Here are some more pics of my CS6. I just love to show it off.








[/IMG]



[/IMG]



[/IMG]


----------



## potatohead

brett8388 said:


> Has anyone ordered one of the new Jason Becker signature Carvins? I was thinking about getting one but I've never owned a Carvin. Please PM me if you have details to share. Thanks.



Less thinking. More doing.


----------



## soliloquy

cajunboy2k said:


> Here are some more pics of my CS6. I just love to show it off.



that is such a beauty!!!














on an unrelated note, as much as i'm liking the idea of a classic white CT424 with gold hardware, an all gold top CT424 sounds even more awesome. the white is neat coz its not a color you see too often. but the gold really shows off the curves and it still looks classy. kinda torn between the two as i've always wanted a white guitar ( i had one, sold it, and now i want another one...), but the gold is so unique and different;


----------



## gunch

soliloquy said:


> that is such a beauty!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> on an unrelated note, as much as i'm liking the idea of a classic white CT424 with gold hardware, an all gold top CT424 sounds even more awesome. the white is neat coz its not a color you see too often. but the gold really shows off the curves and it still looks classy. kinda torn between the two as i've always wanted a white guitar ( i had one, sold it, and now i want another one...), but the gold is so unique and different;



Stick with the white, dude.
Still trying to work out if I want a white DC600 or a used JP6.


----------



## cajunboy2k

soliloquy said:


> that is such a beauty!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> on an unrelated note, as much as i'm liking the idea of a classic white CT424 with gold hardware, an all gold top CT424 sounds even more awesome. the white is neat coz its not a color you see too often. but the gold really shows off the curves and it still looks classy. kinda torn between the two as i've always wanted a white guitar ( i had one, sold it, and now i want another one...), but the gold is so unique and different;



White would be cool, but I really like the gold top. If I get another CS it will be a CS4 gold top. If I got a white guitar, it would be a Blot+ or a DC127. I think white super starts are the sex.


----------



## soliloquy

i'm wondering if i can pull carvins leg long enough for them to introduce the pearl white finish. its metallic, so it will show those curves quiet nicely...


----------



## potatohead

soliloquy said:


> i'm wondering if i can pull carvins leg long enough for them to introduce the pearl white finish. its metallic, so it will show those curves quiet nicely...



Mother of Pearl carved top. Do it.


----------



## soliloquy

potatohead said:


> Mother of Pearl carved top. Do it.



this is not classy:


----------



## littledoc

^ That looks like someone's grandmother's jewelry.


----------



## potatohead

soliloquy said:


> this is not classy:


 
Jesus H Christ why did you post that

I meant like one giant solid block not a million pieces. Just treat it like metal and melt it all down into one giant piece


----------



## soliloquy

/\ and to think, zemitis is responsible for making some of the classiest guitars of all time...coincidentally, they also make some of the gaudiest guitars of all time...


----------



## cajunboy2k

potatohead said:


> Jesus H Christ why did you post that
> 
> I meant like one giant solid block not a million pieces. Just treat it like metal and melt it all down into one giant piece



Yeah, it's just not me. Pass


----------



## soliloquy

for anyone interested in the HH2 and its size:


----------



## LetsMosey

^HNGD man. How do you like it?

I forgot to add my new DC600 to this thread:











NGD thread: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/st...arvin-dc600m-quilt-teal-awesomeness-here.html


----------



## soliloquy

/\ its not my guitar. just passing on a video that someone posted on the carvin forum.

my next guitar will 80% be a CT424 and 20% a DC600. and that will be maybe next year...so lets see...







edit:
just when i thought that a Ct424 in classic white with gold hardware would be my next guitar, i come across this:





and now i'm not so sure...

the CT424 would have been this without the inlays:





and i was going for a minimal and elegant look. 
and then the CS424 comes my way.

i do like and prefer single cut bodies
but a CS in which just doesn't look right to me (les pauls in white work for me due to their curves....the CS is a lil too flat for my liking), and if i go with the CS route then it will compliment my CS6m quiet nicely. 

but then again, the CT424 would be so different and the curves on that are so sexy....

and in terms of money, the CS424 would be about ten dollars more, so thats not an issue...



:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:


----------



## soliloquy




----------



## purpledc

potatohead said:


> Jesus H Christ why did you post that
> 
> I meant like one giant solid block not a million pieces. Just treat it like metal and melt it all down into one giant piece



It would have to be a laminate or plastic. There is no shell large enough to cover a whole guitar top in one shot.


----------



## soliloquy

purpledc said:


> It would have to be a laminate or plastic. There is no shell large enough to cover a whole guitar top in one shot.



look closely. the are made of smaller pieces. its the real mother of pearl shell on em...


----------



## potatohead




----------



## Bones43x

Potatohead, those are stunning! 

When I first saw the pic of the quilt on the DC700, my jaw dropped. Then the all natural flame ST300...nice!


----------



## NickS

Mine. CT6M, CS4M, DC727 and DC800.


----------



## soliloquy

/\ that CT is amazing!


----------



## HighGain510

NickS said:


>




DAAAAAAMN! That CT6 is VERY nice!


----------



## NickS

Glad you guys like the CT It's got a pretty sweet looking birdseye maple fretboard that you can't really see in that pic. So here it is:


----------



## cajunboy2k

This makes me wish I was a lefty.


----------



## SkweakyMuffin

^^^
That looks amazing! Reminds me of a Suhr kinda.

I forgot to post my guitar in here when I got it. It is a bit intimidating seeing all the gorgeous guitars you guys have put together in here though lol.


----------



## cajunboy2k

SkweakyMuffin said:


> ^^^
> That looks amazing! Reminds me of a Suhr kinda.
> 
> I forgot to post my guitar in here when I got it. It is a bit intimidating seeing all the gorgeous guitars you guys have put together in here though lol.



Sweet. I've been looking at those. How does it play/sound?


----------



## SkweakyMuffin

cajunboy2k said:


> Sweet. I've been looking at those. How does it play/sound?



So far it is my favorite guitar as far as play-ability goes. The neck just feels amazing with the tung oil and the stainless steel frets don't hurt either ! The sound has been pretty good too. The coil split positions have really surprised me, they get a pretty convincing single coil sound when you overdrive your amp. Honestly though, I've only been able to run it through my JSX for an hour, otherwise I've been running it through my Line 6 up here so I can't say much about the sound. From what I heard during that hour though, the pickups might just be keepers.


----------



## Jack Secret

A little new Carvin porn for y'all just cause...


----------



## kuhboom




----------



## soliloquy

and because these pics wont last that long, carvin did another awesome faded denim finish on their CT6 guitar:
Carvin.com BBS :: View topic - Got my CT624 Faded Denim today!!!


----------



## GTailly

Somebody please buy this...


----------



## soliloquy

In(Di)visions said:


> Somebody please buy this...



have you seen its cousin?


----------



## Edika

Can somebody from the US tell me the price of this one?





Here's the link:
CarvinWorld.com International :

I send an inquiry to a dealer here and I want to see the difference in price. Thanks.


----------



## Swyse

$1,459.00 marked down to $1,259.00


----------



## Jack Secret

That was my V I sent back. Just wasn't bonding with it. Absolutely nothing wrong with it otherwise (well besides they put the wrong headstock on it from what I wanted).


----------



## Swyse

Jack Secret said:


> That was my V I sent back. Just wasn't bonding with it. Absolutely nothing wrong with it otherwise (well besides they put the wrong headstock on it from what I wanted).



What one did you want on there? That one looks rather appropriate. 

Also a non related question; Do/can you request sick tops every time or do you get lucky? I only ask because the top on that purple one is bangin.


----------



## Edika

^ Thanks guys. It liked the photos a lot and I am itching for a quality V. 
@Jack how did you like the S22 pickups? I have a DC400 and I like the C22's a lot but this guitar should have the larger routes to experiment with other pups. However I'd prefer not to change them immediately.

I'm guessing the reply from the dealer here will be around 1500 Euros if I am lucky.


----------



## Jack Secret

Swyse said:


> What one did you want on there? That one looks rather appropriate.
> 
> Also a non related question; Do/can you request sick tops every time or do you get lucky? I only ask because the top on that purple one is bangin.




I wanted the new headstock that the purple DC600 has. They did offer a one month rebuild but I liked the look of it so I took it...just didn't bond with it is all. They're making me another DC600 in translucent blue.

Far as tops, Carvin seems to pick great tops for everyone. I did call the guy I usually deal with there and asked they not overdo the purple so the flame got muted and he said don't worry. Came out perfect.


----------



## Jack Secret

Edika said:


> ^ Thanks guys. It liked the photos a lot and I am itching for a quality V.
> @Jack how did you like the S22 pickups? I have a DC400 and I like the C22's a lot but this guitar should have the larger routes to experiment with other pups. However I'd prefer not to change them immediately.
> 
> I'm guessing the reply from the dealer here will be around 1500 Euros if I am lucky.




I love the S22's. Very warm and they seem to love distortion very much no matter how crackly it gets. The new A60 actives are amazing, honestly. I dig the C22's as well but only have them on one electric.


----------



## ihunda

Glad to enter the club!







NGD thread:
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/st...in-ct6-faded-blue-denim-best-finish-ever.html


----------



## soliloquy

> Here are the newer pictures, and I'd like to expand on the story that goes with this guitar. After playing 1GearMadmans' Carvins, and deciding to order one, I waited until February 24th to order it up. My sister was due to have my first nephew around that time, and just before I left to meet "Riley" at the hospital after delivery, I called and ordered this up. I had them add "Ordered on Riley's birthday, February 24th, 2012" to the invoice.
> 
> I fully intend to give this guitar to Riley when he is old enough not to destroy it. To add to the package, these pictures that follow were taken by Rileys' dad Jamie. I'm hoping one of these pics is good enough for the Carvin Community Calendar 2013, so that I can get some printed up. I think it would be cool to have a guitar that was ordered on the day I was born, with calendars to accompany it that have pictures taken of that very same guitar by my dad!!





source:
Carvin.com BBS :: View topic - NGD - CT6M - Deep OrangeBurst Quilt ( added new pictures )


----------



## median

I hate to say it but I stay away from Carvin. I live near their headquarters and have used tons of their stuff over the years. But I can find better gear for less money elsewhere. They do have some great guitars, but overall I can find the same if not better quality in other guitars for less. 

Personally I think the days of "We only make things here in America" are kind of absurd (which is actually untrue for Carvin because many of their parts are made in China). We live in a global economy and guitar companies are not going to stop building great guitars overseas. If Carvin wants to stay small, then OK. But I'll still buy elsewhere. 

Besides that, I've never liked their headstocks (especially on their basses). Blah.


----------



## NickS




----------



## cataclysm_child

median said:


> I hate to say it but I stay away from Carvin. I live near their headquarters and have used tons of their stuff over the years. But I can find better gear for less money elsewhere. They do have some great guitars, but overall I can find the same if not better quality in other guitars for less.
> 
> Personally I think the days of "We only make things here in America" are kind of absurd (which is actually untrue for Carvin because many of their parts are made in China). We live in a global economy and guitar companies are not going to stop building great guitars overseas. If Carvin wants to stay small, then OK. But I'll still buy elsewhere.
> 
> Besides that, I've never liked their headstocks (especially on their basses). Blah.



Trollollollol!!


----------



## 7 Strings of Hate

median said:


> But I can find better gear for less money elsewhere. They do have some great guitars, but overall I can find the same if not better quality in other guitars for less.



Your high dude. Sure you can find cheaper, but the quality isnt even on the same level. You want some shittily made chinese piece of crap made in a sweat shop with bad QC? Go for it. For the level of quality they have, carvin has to be the cheapest you can get.


----------



## soliloquy

/\ i kind of agree and disagree with that and what median was saying. 

i remember owning an ibanez RG321mh, one of the lowest priced RG guitars they had to offer a few years ago. i'm not sure of its longevity, but for the 200 i paid for it, it was one of the best guitars i had below the 1000 dollar mark. 

maybe i struck gold, but for the most part, the RG321 that i tried in stores were pretty kick ass as well. 


however, i paid about 1800 shipped for my CS6m, and this is the best guitar i've played under the 2500-3000ish mark. however, its also unfair to compare it to other guitars as its features aren't exactly apples to apples.

eitherway, i like carvins stuff. i like their prices. i personally cant find anything that plays like carvin with the same price point (maybe the ibanez prestige and premium line...maybe...and same goes for gibson les paul standards...again, a big maybe and their QC isn't as consistent). 



it works for me.


----------



## Atomshipped

Wtf so many beautiful Carvins since last time I checked this thread.


----------



## Progfather

Jack Secret said:


> A little new Carvin porn for y'all just cause...



Dude this is stellar! What model is this? And how much did it run you approximately?


----------



## LetsMosey

Progfather said:


> Dude this is stellar! What model is this? And how much did it run you approximately?



It's the new DC600 model they released in the spring of this year. Go to this link (Carvin.com : DC600 TWO PICKUP GUITAR) and click on the "guitar builder" link on the right-hand side of the page and price out the options you want to see how much it would cost. Mine was around $1600 after all of my upgrade options (quilt maple top, mahog body, 5-piece neck, flame maple fingerboard...)



> NGD thread: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/st...arvin-dc600m-quilt-teal-awesomeness-here.html


----------



## soliloquy

Progfather said:


> Dude this is stellar! What model is this? And how much did it run you approximately?



as mentioned above, its the DC600. if you dont want any of the fancy features, this guitar would be one of the cheaper guitars that carvin offers. a decently speced guitar can be bought for about 1100ish or so...

this link has 15 pages of mockups on this guitar:
Carvin.com BBS :: View topic - DC600 PhotoShop Guitar Builder


if i get a DC600, it would be something like these guys:


----------



## LetsMosey

^ Like he said, yes you can get a DC600 with minimal specs for pretty cheap. 

There are a couple on the "guitars in stock" page you could pick up cheap. Carvin.com - Custom Shop Guitars-in-Stock - Ready to Ship!

EDIT: This one is $900... http://www.carvinguitars.com/guitars-in-stock/116400


----------



## median

7 Strings of Hate said:


> Your high dude. Sure you can find cheaper, but the quality isnt even on the same level. You want some shittily made chinese piece of crap made in a sweat shop with bad QC? Go for it. For the level of quality they have, carvin has to be the cheapest you can get.



Hey if you're sold on Carvin...by all means. But their absolute rock bottom cheapest guitar STARTS at $700 (and the guitars aren't hand made!). Their made by machines (just like overseas). I can buy two Ibanez RGs for the same price and shred just as hard, get great tones (as so many have before), and save money. 

I'm not knocking their tones, or the quality perse. But I'm not into paying more for the same stuff, and I'm not really into the look of their guitars. If you like them...cool. I've heard some great recordings from Carvins but I've heard great recordings from other guitars that cost 1/2 the price or less.

p.s. - I do however think they are getting better. The 8 strings have nicer looking head-stocks. My buddy Flock (at Carvin) was responsible for putting those 8 strings together (getting them going). Who knows? I might own a Carvin one day.


----------



## Swyse

median said:


> Hey if you're sold on Carvin...by all means. But their absolute rock bottom cheapest guitar STARTS at $700 (and the guitars aren't hand made!). Their made by machines (just like overseas). I can buy two Ibanez RGs for the same price and shred just as hard, get great tones (as so many have before), and save money.
> 
> I'm not knocking their tones, or the quality perse. But I'm not into paying more for the same stuff, and I'm not really into the look of their guitars. If you like them...cool. I've heard some great recordings from Carvins but I've heard great recordings from other guitars that cost 1/2 the price or less.
> 
> p.s. - I do however think they are getting better. The 8 strings have nicer looking head-stocks. My buddy Flock (at Carvin) was responsible for putting those 8 strings together (getting them going). Who knows? I might own a Carvin one day.



"You know that thing you guys like? Well it sucks."
Classic troll technique.
If you're buying two ibanez RGs for the $700 you'd spend on a bottom of the barrel carvin you'd better pick those two ~$350 RGs carefully. Part of what you are paying for on a more expensive guitar is higher quality control standards. While you may be able to shred just as hard, you'll have to do it trying not to shred your fingers on the fret ends too. I understand wanting the best value in a guitar and I'm all about getting a good deal, but comparing a USA semi custom guitar to an indonesian guitar is a waste of time.


----------



## LetsMosey

Swyse said:


> "You know that thing you guys like? Well it sucks."
> Classic troll technique.
> If you're buying two ibanez RGs for the $700 you'd spend on a bottom of the barrel carvin you'd better pick those two ~$350 RGs carefully. Part of what you are paying for on a more expensive guitar is higher quality control standards. While you may be able to shred just as hard, you'll have to do it trying not to shred your fingers on the fret ends too. I understand wanting the best value in a guitar and I'm all about getting a good deal, but comparing a USA semi custom guitar to an indonesian guitar is a waste of time.



Agreed. Not only are you getting better quality control, but also getting a guitar made from higher grade quality materials.

We must resist median's troll bait.


----------



## median

Swyse said:


> "You know that thing you guys like? Well it sucks."
> Classic troll technique.
> If you're buying two ibanez RGs for the $700 you'd spend on a bottom of the barrel carvin you'd better pick those two ~$350 RGs carefully. Part of what you are paying for on a more expensive guitar is higher quality control standards. While you may be able to shred just as hard, you'll have to do it trying not to shred your fingers on the fret ends too. I understand wanting the best value in a guitar and I'm all about getting a good deal, but comparing a USA semi custom guitar to an indonesian guitar is a waste of time.



A couple points here. First, I've heard this term "troll" used online (with no official definition) and I can only assume that it implies something (in many cases) quite incorrectly. Expressing one's opinion is NOT a bad thing. Indeed that is what forums like these are for. You make Carvin sound like a religion. "You're an unsaved troll if you don't think our way." That is absurd. 

Secondly, I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. I have 6 Ibanez guitars - ALL of which play equally as good as any Carvin I've played (which are many) and all of which I paid under $1000 for. I lived 3 miles from the Carvin factory for years and still live close enough to drive there in 15 minutes. I used to go there weekly, as the HS I graduated from (years ago) is one block from their building. I've played numerous Carvin guitars over the last 15 years. So it's not like I haven't tried their products - and indeed I DO like some of their guitars (i.e. I'm not saying their quality is bad). If some people are into them, no worries. But for the price, I believe your paying for looks (which I'm not into most of their head-stocks), and a knock off guitar. Nearly ALL their guitars are knock offs of other makers. Personally, I don't respect that and I believe this is why main-line pros don't play them (including Steve Vai). 

If they start a new trend, great! And I _have _heard some great sounding recordings (mostly 7 strings stuff) but to call someone a "troll" (whatever that means) for expressing an opinion on a specific product makes you sound like a fundamentalist, over a guitar company. Is it really THAT important?

p.s. - No one is saying, "That thing you like sucks" and that is _not _what was meant. That is a misinterpretation of what I said.


----------



## LetsMosey

median said:


> A couple points here. First, I've heard this term "troll" used online (with no official definition) and I can only assume that it implies something (in many cases) quite incorrectly. Expressing one's opinion is NOT a bad thing. Indeed that is what forums like these are for. You make Carvin sound like a religion. "You're an unsaved troll if you don't think our way." That is absurd.
> 
> Secondly, I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. I have 6 Ibanez guitars - ALL of which play equally as good as any Carvin I've played (which are many) and all of which I paid under $1000 for. I lived 3 miles from the Carvin factory for years and still live close enough to drive there in 15 minutes. I used to go there weekly, as the HS I graduated from (years ago) is one block from their building. I've played numerous Carvin guitars over the last 15 years. So it's not like I haven't tried their products - and indeed I DO like some of their guitars (i.e. I'm not saying their quality is bad). If some people are into them, no worries. But for the price, I believe your paying for looks (which I'm not into most of their head-stocks), and a knock off guitar. Nearly ALL their guitars are knock offs of other makers. Personally, I don't respect that and I believe this is why main-line pros don't play them (including Steve Vai).
> 
> If they start a new trend, great! And I _have _heard some great sounding recordings (mostly 7 strings stuff) but to call someone a "troll" (whatever that means) for expressing an opinion on a specific product makes you sound like a fundamentalist, over a guitar company. Is it really THAT important?



For the price, you believe we're paying for looks? Surely you cannot be serious. Carvin's quality control and customer service goes beyond what other guitar companies dream of being able to offer. And the quality of the guitars (the woods, stainless steel frets, tops, paint jobs, etc.) surpasses guitars at lower price points. To say you buy a carvin just for looks is silly. How a guitar plays is purely subjective and based on your own preferences as a player. So, you're right in that sense... it is your opinion and right to believe and share that opinion. However, you are in the minority. Most people that have ever played, own, or owned a carvin would most likely say that the playability and overall quality of Carvin guitars surpasses that of lower price-point guitars.

There's nothing wrong with Ibanez, Schecter, LTD, etc.... I've owned many of their guitars throughout the years. But the quality and playability is subpar compared to my carvins. Then again, that's just my opinion.


----------



## soliloquy

median said:


> Hey if you're sold on Carvin...by all means. But their absolute rock bottom cheapest guitar STARTS at $700 (and the guitars aren't hand made!). Their made by machines (just like overseas). I can buy two Ibanez RGs for the same price and shred just as hard, get great tones (as so many have before), and save money.
> 
> I'm not knocking their tones, or the quality perse. But I'm not into paying more for the same stuff, and I'm not really into the look of their guitars. If you like them...cool. I've heard some great recordings from Carvins but I've heard great recordings from other guitars that cost 1/2 the price or less.
> 
> p.s. - I do however think they are getting better. The 8 strings have nicer looking head-stocks. My buddy Flock (at Carvin) was responsible for putting those 8 strings together (getting them going). Who knows? I might own a Carvin one day.





i'm still not convinced that this guy is trolling...perhaps confused

tell you what, try finding a guitar that will do the following:

let you pick your fret size and material and radius
let you pick the neck wood between maple, flamed maple, birds eye maple, koa, walnut, mahogany, alder
let you pick the fret board between flamed maple, maple, birds eye, ebony, rosewood
let you pick your body wood between mahogany, alder, swamp ash, maple/flamed maple, koa, walnut
let you pick your top wood between mahogany, alder, swamp ash, flamed/quilted/spalted maple, koa, walnut
let you pick your number of frets
let you pick your pickups
let you pick your bridges between fixed, string through, floyd rose, wilki
let you pick your color (s)
let you pick your finish between gloss, matte, tung oil


and let you pick a whole lot of other stuff

all under a grand? 

agile is the only other company and even they dont offer half the stuff that carvin offers. 


and i know i got docked on this in the PRS thread, but i'm bringing PRS here. i dont like PRS, however, i respect them for their QC and their built quality and consistency. if carvin wasn't around (or even if they were), i'd say that some of their guitars that are priced below the 2000 dollar mark are totally worth it as you wont find that kind of work elsewhere. 

yes, i admit that the indonesian ibanez are fast approaching the US/Japanese (and in many cases beating them) but what ibanez is offering has very little in common with what any other company is offering. even take schecter/ltd and ibanez. shcecter and ltd dont offer necks as thin as ibanez. nor do they offer wooden edge binding like ibanez either. nor the bridge. nor the fret access. etc....


at that case, you aren't comparing apples to apples. nor oranges. you're comparing apples to water melons. completely different ball games...

just saying...


----------



## median

LetsMosey said:


> For the price, you believe we're paying for looks? Surely you cannot be serious. Carvin's quality control and customer service goes beyond what other guitar companies dream of being able to offer. And the quality of the guitars (the woods, stainless steel frets, tops, paint jobs, etc.) surpasses guitars at lower price points. To say you buy a carvin just for looks is silly. How a guitar plays is purely subjective and based on your own preferences as a player. So, you're right in that sense... it is your opinion and right to believe and share that opinion. However, you are in the minority. Most people that have ever played, own, or owned a carvin would most likely say that the playability and overall quality of Carvin guitars surpasses that of lower price-point guitars.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with Ibanez, Schecter, LTD, etc.... I've owned many of their guitars throughout the years. But the quality and playability is subpar compared to my carvins. Then again, that's just my opinion.



There is room for all opinions - especially when it comes to gear (and that doesn't make anyone a "troll", or whatever). I have never had a bad experience with my Ibanez guitars and none of them have fret problems (or any problems for that matter). All of them play amazing and sound amazing. This is, I believe, why so many pros play them. I have an RGFX that I bought for $150. The thing plays and sounds like a dream. 

Last, I go to NAMM every year and I do _not_ hear any top pros (or even up and coming guys) talking about Carvin. It just doesn't happen. They are hanging out at other booths talking about _those _companies products. I suppose someone could accuse them of being "money" hungry - but to accuse ALL of them of this is somewhat shortsighted. The pros I've spoken with have chosen their guitars because they love how they play. 

But hey, I'm not knocking Carvin. I DO like some of their stuff. But for the money (and the look) it's not my first choice.


----------



## Swyse

I wasn't calling you a troll, my point was that you came to the carvin thread, which consists of carvin enthusiats, to say that you didn't like carvin's guitars. I at this very point in time do not own a carvin, I actually own 5 Ibanez guitars. A troll is someone who disagrees or argues a point to purposely make someone mad. 

I don't have a horse in the race so to speak, but I know from the carvins that I've played that the QC is great. I understand not liking their shapes, especially their headstocks. One area where I will disagree about the guitars being knock offs of other brands. Unless you're a total fender or gibson fan, isn't it the pot calling the kettle black? Ibanez's RG is a just pointy stratocaster. Also, if you order an Ibanez and its mucked up or comes with hardware where the finish wears off in a matter of days and rusts, its a sad tale. With carvin their return/rebuild policy is very generous I think. I feel with all the options you get, with great QC and customer service you get a very good product for a very good price.


----------



## LetsMosey

median said:


> There is room for all opinions - especially when it comes to gear (and that doesn't make anyone a "troll", or whatever). I have never had a bad experience with my Ibanez guitars and none of them have fret problems (or any problems for that matter). All of them play amazing and sound amazing. This is, I believe, why so many pros play them. I have an RGFX that I bought for $150. The thing plays and sounds like a dream.
> 
> Last, I go to NAMM every year and I do _not_ hear any top pros (or even up and coming guys) talking about Carvin. It just doesn't happen. They are hanging out at other booths talking about _those _companies products. I suppose someone could accuse them of being "money" hungry - but to accuse ALL of them of this is somewhat shortsighted. The pros I've spoken with have chosen their guitars because they love how they play.
> 
> But hey, I'm not knocking Carvin. I DO like some of their stuff. But for the money (and the look) it's not my first choice.



But money IS the reason you never hear any top pros talking about Carvin. That's how they make a living--endorsements. I've had this conversation with quite a few top players, and all of them would agree Carvin guitars are amazing. But they are a small family-owned company and can't afford to pay huge dividends to endorsees for playing their gear. They don't pay Vai a ton of money to tote their amps, because Vai makes a shit ton of money via Ibanez, Ernie Ball, Morley, etc. I don't think it makes them greedy, it makes them logical going where the money is so that they can keep being a professional musician and making a living off of it. Ibanez has MILLIONS of advertising dollars to spend, Carvin does not.


----------



## median

Swyse said:


> I wasn't calling you a troll, my point was that you came to the carvin thread, which consists of carvin enthusiats, to say that you didn't like carvin's guitars. I at this very point in time do not own a carvin, I actually own 5 Ibanez guitars. A troll is someone who disagrees or argues a point to purposely make someone mad.
> 
> I don't have a horse in the race so to speak, but I know from the carvins that I've played that the QC is great. I understand not liking their shapes, especially their headstocks. One area where I will disagree about the guitars being knock offs of other brands. Unless you're a total fender or gibson fan, isn't it the pot calling the kettle black? Ibanez's RG is a just pointy stratocaster. Also, if you order an Ibanez and its mucked up or comes with hardware where the finish wears off in a matter of days and rusts, its a sad tale. With carvin their return/rebuild policy is very generous I think. I feel with all the options you get, with great QC and customer service you get a very good product for a very good price.


 
When I saw "The Carvin thread" I didn't read into it thinking, "Oh, this must be a bunch of guys who all LOVE Carvin". Rather, it looked to be a _general _Carvin forum (for opinions on Carvin). So here we are. I really didn't think one opinion on Carvin would make the bee hive so furious. LOL. 


Second, I suppose this depends on what one _values_. If all someone cares about is ordering a custom guitar and getting a thousand choices (paying $1500 - $2500) by all means go for it. But I don't value that (and I do think the guitars are knock-offs). Heck, a few of the guys at Carvin have even admitted this in conversation. Again, if you like them...cool. But expressing an opinion on a board doesn't mean I am trying to upset anyone. After all, it is an open forum and it didn't say "Carvin Enthusiasts Thread".


----------



## median

LetsMosey said:


> But money IS the reason you never hear any top pros talking about Carvin. That's how they make a living--endorsements. I've had this conversation with quite a few top players, and all of them would agree Carvin guitars are amazing. But they are a small family-owned company and can't afford to pay huge dividends to endorsees for playing their gear. They don't pay Vai a ton of money to tote their amps, because Vai makes a shit ton of money via Ibanez, Ernie Ball, Morley, etc. I don't think it makes them greedy, it makes them logical going where the money is so that they can keep being a professional musician and making a living off of it. Ibanez has MILLIONS of advertising dollars to spend, Carvin does not.



For me, this would make sense if Carvin had completely original looking guitars. But from my experience (seeing/playing them and in talking with many Carvin owners here in SD, and Carvin staff) their guitars are (by and large) knock-offs of other makers designs (minus the headstock of course). That is not something I value as an artist. Again, if someone else is, cool. But shunning ANY opinion to the contrary seems dogmatic.

Personally, I think they should do their own original designs more and move toward different head-stocks. If they did that I would walk in and buy one.


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## soliloquy

actually i kind of agree with Median on the point that just coz it says 'carvin thread' as the title, only positive carvin reviews will be posted here. thats the thing i HATE about the prs thread. you mention anything about any negative aspect of PRS and people shun you saying 'this is PRS, keep it that way' or in other terms meaning that only positive stuff shall be here. and if you want to express your negative opinion, all you are entitled to is saying is 'i dont like em' and thats it...not really fair. 

also, in terms of knock offs...ibanez rg is a knock off to jackson soloist, which is a knock off to fender. prs is a knock off of gibson and fender put together...

aside from fender and gibson, i think only the BC RICH and rickenbaker guitars are original in the sense that no similar bodies exist out there. 

so with that said, you are enjoying a knock off guitar with an ibanez on the headstock..


----------



## zilla

By that logic, then every single car in production has been a knock off of the original model T


----------



## soliloquy

zilla said:


> By that logic, then every single car in production has been a knock off of the original model T



my point exactly. 

or even before that, all cars are a copy of trains, which are a copy of horse carriages. etc...


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## zilla

im sorry, but you can't call something a knock off just because there is some similarity in the history.

You can't say that a mercedes is a knock off of a model T, just like you can't say that ibanez is a knock off of jackson or prs is a knock off of gibson and fender.

they're all evolutions in design. Some are major evolutions, others not so much.


----------



## median

zilla said:


> By that logic, then every single car in production has been a knock off of the original model T



I don't know about you, but I don't buy a car to use as my _art. _So the comparison is not really a fair one. 

In regards to the Jackson comment (etc), I don't really see a comparison. And I suppose at this point we are getting into a pointless match over aesthetics. I don't like the head-stocks on either the Jacksons or the Carvins. As far as Ibanez being a copy of a Fender, I really don't see it. They are quite different in shape. So maybe, for me personally, the head-stock happens to be a big deal. Again, if Carvin changed their head-stocks and changed the shapes a little I would be into it. 

For example, I think this is a beautiful guitar. Change the head-stock up a bit and I might be into it...


----------



## soliloquy

zilla said:


> im sorry, but you can't call something a knock off just because there is some similarity in the history.
> 
> You can't say that a mercedes is a knock off of a model T, just like you can't say that ibanez is a knock off of jackson or prs is a knock off of gibson and fender.
> 
> they're all evolutions in design. Some are major evolutions, others not so much.



oh i'm not disagreeing. i'm just pointing out how silly it is to think so. thats what median is suggesting, that the carvin guitars are a knock off of prs or others. 

with that said, the carvin takes the idea of prs and merges with something else. the prs was inspired between the fender and gibson guitars. and then carvin brought out the CT line which is also similar to the prs guitars, however, it also incorporates a bit of schecters square edge bodies. its neck joint is closer to the gibson double cut than it is with prs

like so:


----------



## median

Is there _ever _a "knock off" of anything then? Is there a way to differentiate a knock off from something we could call original? Perhaps this comes downs to degrees of similarity which one is willing to tolerate.


----------



## zilla

a knock off is when you have a company that blatantly tries to copy a more well known (and usually more expensive) item and tries to pass it off as the original.


----------



## soliloquy

median said:


> I don't know about you, but I don't buy a car to use as my _art. _So the comparison is not really a fair one.
> 
> In regards to the Jackson comment (etc), I don't really see a comparison. And I suppose at this point we are getting into a pointless match over aesthetics. I don't like the head-stocks on either the Jacksons or the Carvins. As far as Ibanez being a copy of a Fender, I really don't see it. They are quite different in shape. So maybe, for me personally, the head-stock happens to be a big deal. Again, if Carvin changed their head-stocks and changed the shapes a little I would be into it.
> 
> For example, I think this is a beautiful guitar. Change the head-stock up a bit and I might be into it...



carvin offers several different headstocks








































and all or most of them can be reversed as well.


----------



## soliloquy

median said:


> Is there _ever _a "knock off" of anything then? Is there a way to differentiate a knock off from something we could call original? Perhaps this comes downs to degrees of similarity which one is willing to tolerate.



a knock off would be like this:
original: gibson les paul
knock off: burney/greco/tokai/navigator/edwards version of 'love rock' or other les paul guitars that are virtually identical safe for the name on the headstock.


----------



## soliloquy

new guitar for neil zaza. heres what he wrote about it:"























zaza just got a second one:


----------



## Edika

Edika said:


> Can somebody from the US tell me the price of this one?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the link:
> CarvinWorld.com International :
> 
> I send an inquiry to a dealer here and I want to see the difference in price. Thanks.



I had a conversation through emails with a dealer here about this guitar. Well he is listed as a dealer but maybe he is not because of the following. First of all he told me that he CAN'T give me a price for that particular guitar and that I should just copy paste the specs so they can inquire the price as a new build. I asked him why since that particular guitar is available in the in stock inventory. He insisted that it's not possible. Second he said that he is going the spec sheet to the dealer (so he is not the dealer?) and get a price quote.
I send them the spec sheet with just two changes, a reverse headstock and a tung oil neck. Nothing too different or extravagant. Swyse said the price tag for that model in the Carvin site was $1,459.00 marked down to $1,259.00 and the "dealer" replied *2550 EUROS.

*So I'm either buying a Carvin if I come to the US or used from the US.


----------



## cajunboy2k

Edika said:


> I had a conversation through emails with a dealer here about this guitar. Well he is listed as a dealer but maybe he is not because of the following. First of all he told me that he CAN'T give me a price for that particular guitar and that I should just copy paste the specs so they can inquire the price as a new build. I asked him why since that particular guitar is available in the in stock inventory. He insisted that it's not possible. Second he said that he is going the spec sheet to the dealer (so he is not the dealer?) and get a price quote.
> I send them the spec sheet with just two changes, a reverse headstock and a tung oil neck. Nothing too different or extravagant. Swyse said the price tag for that model in the Carvin site was $1,459.00 marked down to $1,259.00 and the "dealer" replied *2550 EUROS.
> 
> *So I'm either buying a Carvin if I come to the US or used from the US.



The whole "shipping overseas," thing really sucks. It jacks up prices for our friends across the pond. Plus, adding customs/duty really increases the price. I wonder if the overseas instrument market is large enough for someone in the U.S. to start a shipping company that specializes in shipping instruments at more reasonable rates? But this may undercut European dealers. Oh well, just thinking out loud.


----------



## FACTORY

these DC600's are sexy









That's not mine I just found it looked great with that tung oiled flame top.

If I get one built (soon), it will be all mahogany minus two maple stripes on the 5 piece neck (with maple top on body and head stock) all Tung oil.

No inlays & regular reverse DC 6-inline head stock are a must!





You can pay an extra $25 to get the "non-striped all black ebony option" by the way.


----------



## Erazoender

I feel like my Carvin played better than any sub-prestige Ibanez guitar I have ever touched, and even whacks down the majority of prestiges I have played. And I am a fan of Ibanez guitars. But Carvin I feel is in it's own league within the price range of guitars >2k; The build quality is very often impeccable (Though of course the put out lemons now and then... but fuck that expression I love lemons ) and the neck profile is absolutely perfect for ME. I'm sure you have your own preferences and to each their own. But in my hands it feels better than my buddy's pair of ESP guitars, USA Jackson models, virtually every stock guitar you find in guitar centers save the BFR JP7 strings, and the Ibanez Universe 7 string. That thing's a freakin' beast. 

But a guitar is a guitar, and they all feel different. Everyone's different so people will like what they like, and I completely respect your taste in them. The only thing I had a problem with your posts median is trying to imply that the quality of those Ibanez guitars were on par to that of Carvins, and that is completely bogus. As I mentioned even compared to prestige line, I find that Carvin is still superior.

Example my Carvin:


----------



## FACTORY

FACTORY said:


> these DC600's are sexy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's not mine I just found it looked great with that tung oiled flame top.
> 
> If I get one built (soon), it will be all mahogany minus two maple stripes on the 5 piece neck (with maple top on body and head stock) all Tung oil.
> 
> No inlays & regular reverse DC 6-inline head stock are a must!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can pay an extra $25 to get the "non-striped all black ebony option" by the way.



I ment mahogany top not maple top on body and head stock.

By the way I just sent in a money order (20%) for that DC600 I described above. The wait begins.


----------



## SpaceAboveSky

Is the guy promoting Ibanez guitars really knocking Carvin for having knock off guitars?


Wasn't it Ibanez who got sued for basically copy and pasting Gibson's designs AKA "Lawsuit guitars" AKA Ibanez Destroyer?

Look it up people, it's a fact. 

I don't get how he says Cavin is too similar to other model guitars, but "he doesn't see how" an Ibanez RG or S series is similar to a strat at all.


But someone brilliantly points out that, this logic is like saying all cars are like the Model T and are knock offs. Which somehow isn't "fair" because his car isn't used for art. So now the purpose of how you use something defines if it's a knock off, rather than design. Wow. I guess how Median plays Carvins makes it a knock off but how he plays Ibanezs aren't.


----------



## cataclysm_child

SpaceAboveSky said:


> Is the guy promoting Ibanez guitars really knocking Carvin for having knock off guitars?
> 
> 
> Wasn't it Ibanez who got sued for basically copy and pasting Gibson's designs AKA "Lawsuit guitars" AKA Ibanez Destroyer?
> 
> Look it up people, it's a fact.
> 
> I don't get how he says Cavin is too similar to other model guitars, but "he doesn't see how" an Ibanez RG or S series is similar to a strat at all.
> 
> 
> But someone brilliantly points out that, this logic is like saying all cars are like the Model T and are knock offs. Which somehow isn't "fair" because his car isn't used for art. So now the purpose of how you use something defines if it's a knock off, rather than design. Wow. I guess how Median plays Carvins makes it a knock off but how he plays Ibanezs aren't.



The funny part is that Ibanez actually built up their whole company on blatantly copying popular models from other manufacturers and then selling them cheaper.
Google it


----------



## soliloquy

cataclysm_child said:


> The funny part is that Ibanez actually built up their whole company on blatantly copying popular models from other manufacturers and then selling them cheaper.
> Google it



ibanez isn't the only company to do that either.
i'm pretty sure at one point or another, every company had a design that copied someone else

gibson made a strat that looked very similar to the fender strat, safe for the headstock
epiphone had a few super strats that looked very similar to jackson
dean and hamer asked gibson to make similar stuff and were granted that right
bc rich strats look like a mix of fender, jackson and ibanez all thrown in one


etc

pretty much every major company that has been around for a while has done that at one point or another....or they still do








on a side note...i'm curious if i should get a a carvin 7 stringer, or an ibanez ARZ307 i tried recently. 
carvin isn't making a singlecut 7 stringer anytime soon, which is kind of annoying. but the ibanez doesn't have the specs i want like the board, the frets etc.


but if its my first 7, then i'll be picked up a used one. i havnet seen too many used 307s, but a used 727/747 etc can be bought for 400-800ish. 
they both have the same scale, which is nice since i'm used to smaller scales.


----------



## LetsMosey

This argument is still going on?


----------



## NickS

Looks like another build is in order

Carvin.com : CT7 7-STRING CALIFORNIA CARVED TOP GUITAR

CT7.


----------



## soliloquy

someone ordered a silverburst V. looks stunning
















source:
Carvin.com BBS :: View topic - New Ultra V arrived


----------



## soliloquy

Carvins 100 dollar off sale is over. for now at least. maybe they will bring back the 'free case' sale back?


----------



## 0 Xero 0

I may be getting a guitar in the future with an HS pup configuration. Would either of the singles that carvin sells fit a mid-high output pickup at all? They sound nice from the demos, but I don't want to get a pup that will have a considerable drop in volume when switching back and forth if possible.


----------



## Demiurge

After years of using their parts, cables, and accessories, I finally ordered a freaking whole guitar... and just got a postcard advising that I'll be having a NGD sometime around the end of next month.

DC600 
FTB - Sapphire Blue Flame
CG - Clear Gloss Finish (Standard)
NWAL - Walnut Neck & Body
FPH - Flamed Maple Headstock Matches Body Finish
H33 - 6-String Pointed Headstock 3+3 (Standard)
BM F - Birdseye Maple Fingerboard (Tung-Oiled)
NIN - No Top Inlays - Side Dots Only
STF - Stainless Med-Jumbo Frets .048" H .103" W
R12 - 12in Fretboard Radius (Standard)
BBE - Natural Top Wood Body Binding w/ Straight Edges
CH - Chrome Hardware (Standard)
41 - H22T Bridge Pickup
C22J - C22J Neck Pickup (Standard)
405 - White/Black Coils w/ Black Bezels
WL - White Logo
IVN - Ivory Graph Tech TUSQ Nut
HC10 - Black Tolex Hardshell Guitar Case


----------



## soliloquy

0 Xero 0 said:


> I may be getting a guitar in the future with an HS pup configuration. Would either of the singles that carvin sells fit a mid-high output pickup at all? They sound nice from the demos, but I don't want to get a pup that will have a considerable drop in volume when switching back and forth if possible.



your best option would be to ask the folks at carvinbbs.com. i'm sure they are far more knowledgeable


----------



## Doomlord

soliloquy said:


> Carvins 100 dollar off sale is over. for now at least. maybe they will bring back the 'free case' sale back?



I just called about that and they will still honor it if you complain about the deal still being listed on their website (which it is at the time of this posting). I am about to pull the trigger on another DC700.


----------



## Snarpaasi

Does somebody know when Carvin has changed their pickup routing measures so that the aftermarket pu'd do fit?


----------



## SouthpawGuy

Both of mine ...


----------



## Doomlord

Snarpaasi said:


> Does somebody know when Carvin has changed their pickup routing measures so that the aftermarket pu'd do fit?



That probably depends on what Carvin guitar you are referencing. The Carvin DC700 and CT7 come with industry standard routes for their A70 pickups (can be replaced with EMGs) and they have been doing that for over a year now. They just introduced their new passive 7 string pickup, the D26, and they are advertising the routes for those will accept other passives such as DiMarzio and Bareknuckles.

I am not sure about their 6 string models. I was able to drop in EMG HZs into my DC127 without too much of a problem aside from needing standard sized pickup rings. I believe this was 4 years ago.

Hope this helps.


----------



## LetsMosey

Snarpaasi said:


> Does somebody know when Carvin has changed their pickup routing measures so that the aftermarket pu'd do fit?



If you're talking about the 6-string passive routes, that happened somewhere between 2004-2006 if memory serves me correctly.


----------



## Snarpaasi

LetsMosey said:


> If you're talking about the 6-string passive routes, that happened somewhere between 2004-2006 if memory serves me correctly.



Okay. I bought my dc127 with c22's in 2010, sent an email to Tim/BKP the same year and he told their pickups wouldn't fit. So is it just the pickup rings or the routes that differ? Btw my guitar is with a TOM bridge, did i choose right spacings as i bought an f-spaced crunch lab and a standard-sized air norton?


----------



## LetsMosey

Snarpaasi said:


> Okay. I bought my dc127 with c22's in 2010, sent an email to Tim/BKP the same year and he told their pickups wouldn't fit. So is it just the pickup rings or the routes that differ? Btw my guitar is with a TOM bridge, did i choose right spacings as i bought an f-spaced crunch lab and a standard-sized air norton?



A lot of people weren't aware that Carvin made the change in 2006 or so, so I'd assume that Tim over at BKP back then wasn't aware of it either maybe? Maybe he thought from years past that it was still the same. And yes, the f spaced should work I believe. F spaced bridge and standard neck should work fine. The pickup rings on mine were still fine for my aftermarkets and everything fit perfect. If they don't, just take it to a store local to you that has a good guitar tech and just have them route it out a tad. Won't hurt anything.  Good luck man!


----------



## Snarpaasi

LetsMosey said:


> A lot of people weren't aware that Carvin made the change in 2006 or so, so I'd assume that Tim over at BKP back then wasn't aware of it either maybe? Maybe he thought from years past that it was still the same. And yes, the f spaced should work I believe. F spaced bridge and standard neck should work fine. The pickup rings on mine were still fine for my aftermarkets and everything fit perfect. If they don't, just take it to a store local to you that has a good guitar tech and just have them route it out a tad. Won't hurt anything.  Good luck man!



Sounds Appleish scumbag strategy if only their own pu`s fit  The company doesnt have that big market share tho. I`d like to have wooden rings but didn't find any for a reasonable price with a fast search.


----------



## LetsMosey

Snarpaasi said:


> Sounds Appleish scumbag strategy if only their own pu`s fit  The company doesnt have that big market share tho. I`d like to have wooden rings but didn't find any for a reasonable price with a fast search.



Well, they were viewed that way, and I think that's why they changed. I've spoken with their head guitar tech Al a few times, and have confirmed that their passive 6-string routes should fit normal aftermarket pickups now. The Dimarzio's I put in mine fit fine, and mine is a 2009 or 2010 DC127.


----------



## Snarpaasi

LetsMosey said:


> Well, they were viewed that way, and I think that's why they changed. I've spoken with their head guitar tech Al a few times, and have confirmed that their passive 6-string routes should fit normal aftermarket pickups now. The Dimarzio's I put in mine fit fine, and mine is a 2009 or 2010 DC127.



Great. I could not be more satisfied with my dc127. Stock pu's are rather good but as i have few extra euros I'd like to try if i can enhance the guitar even better. What pickups have you installed in your DC' s? Mine has a maple neck /w mahogany wings and cant deny I'm after somewhat Periphery/Petrucci lead tones


----------



## LetsMosey

Snarpaasi said:


> Great. I could not be more satisfied with my dc127. Stock pu's are rather good but as i have few extra euros I'd like to try if i can enhance the guitar even better. What pickups have you installed in your DC' s? Mine has a maple neck /w mahogany wings and cant deny I'm after somewhat Periphery/Petrucci lead tones



Mine is a maple neck thru with alder wings. I have a Dimarzio super distortion in the bridge and a Liquifire in the neck.  The same combo should sound good for a guitar with mahogany wings too.


----------



## potatohead

Whenever the covered S22 pickups were introduced was when the six-string pickup route changed. I agree it was like five to six years ago now.


----------



## SirMyghin

LetsMosey said:


> Well, they were viewed that way, and I think that's why they changed. I've spoken with their head guitar tech Al a few times, and have confirmed that their passive 6-string routes should fit normal aftermarket pickups now. The Dimarzio's I put in mine fit fine, and mine is a 2009 or 2010 DC127.



Meanwhile a 2009 C66 did not accept dimarzio sized pickups (they were BKPs, but same baseplate). I had to do some modding to both the cavities and base plates to pull it off. 

Yours being the NT line had rings, mine was direct mount.

Decent guitar, worth what was paid for it. I am not nearly so optimistic as Erozender though, I have played better. 

Carvins biggest fallout -> Their fretwork can't compete with PLEK. It is seriously night and day. The fretwork is good enough to cause zero issues, but a fine plekked guitar is another world.


----------



## budda

I'm on the fence about ordering a CT series as opposed to buying something else. I've only played a couple and will have to see if I can try one again. Kind of leaning towards Carvin/PRS.


----------



## Snarpaasi

Okay, so today i installed an Air Norton (standard spacing) into my DC127's neck position. Luckily i got old screws as i bought the pickup since the stock screws didn't fit into the marzio. Also in lack of better tools, i carved a new screw hole with a leatherman (by rolling the tip) between the two adjustment screws on pickup rings. It looks a bit rude but works ok.. The other side of the pu, meaning the coil where the screws are, tend to raise by itself a bit over the pole pieces :/ 

There's still one or two millimeters between the pickup and the ring but the pole pieces are perfectly aligned with the strings. Should I have gone with an f-spaced model?


----------



## LetsMosey

Snarpaasi said:


> Okay, so today i installed an Air Norton (standard spacing) into my DC127's neck position. Luckily i got old screws as i bought the pickup since the stock screws didn't fit into the marzio. Also in lack of better tools, i carved a new screw hole with a leatherman (by rolling the tip) between the two adjustment screws on pickup rings. It looks a bit rude but works ok.. The other side of the pu, meaning the coil where the screws are, tend to raise by itself a bit over the pole pieces :/
> 
> There's still one or two millimeters between the pickup and the ring but the pole pieces are perfectly aligned with the strings. Should I have gone with an f-spaced model?



Usually you should go with f-spaced for the carvin bridges and bridge pickup, and standard spaced for the neck pickup. But as long as the pole pieces are lined-up, I think you should be ok. Glad to hear it was a relatively easy drop-in install for you.


----------



## Snarpaasi

LetsMosey said:


> Usually you should go with f-spaced for the carvin bridges and bridge pickup, and standard spaced for the neck pickup. But as long as the pole pieces are lined-up, I think you should be ok. Glad to hear it was a relatively easy drop-in install for you.



The only thing is that I'm not sure, whether it was a good swap  I suppose this is the beginning of journey trying to find perfect pickups. Still better adventure than Twilight!

Air Norton has more mids and stands out better than the stock C22J. Also it's more aggressive and sounds almost like a single coil/stacked coil. Have to adjust the height a bit and see if it changes anything. I somehow feel like losing sustain/tone/something soon after the pick attack.

If you are after a compressed nintendo shred tone, this pickup isn't for you.


----------



## soliloquy

budda said:


> I'm on the fence about ordering a CT series as opposed to buying something else. I've only played a couple and will have to see if I can try one again. Kind of leaning towards Carvin/PRS.



i got a Carvin CS6m. they have the same neck as the CT. we aren't too far from each other. you're more than welcome to try my CS6 out


----------



## soliloquy

heres a cool video of a comparison between PRS pickups vs Carvin.
mind you, the bridge pickup can only be compared as they are in the exact same location. the PRS has 24 frets, and carvin has 22. thus the neck pickups would be slightly different by default.


----------



## cataclysm_child

^I have to say I prefer the Carvin in this video!
Almost sounds like the Carvin has new strings and the PRS don't.


----------



## LetsMosey

Great video Soliloquy... as cataclysm_child mentioned, I too prefer the Carvin over the PRS in this video. Carvin just packs more clarity. The PRS seems warmer, but yet the Carvin has a nice warm, but clear tone. Maybe the PRS seems warmer because it seems muddy or muffled. The Carvin is clear, but has a nice warm bite to it and maintains nice clarity and has a shimmering quality to it.

Another item to note that I noticed, is the fact that the Carvin's acoustic presence is night and day better than the PRS. You can just hear the acoustic resonance even over the amp, moreso than the PRS.


----------



## soliloquy

i'm a bit indifferent with that video i posted above. there are too many variables. for one thing, the 22 vs 24 frets does make a significant difference. though, even if the carvin pickup is slightly higher on the body, it still sounds clearer. 

then, the prs pickups are covered, which adds to their muffled sound, while carvin is not covered. 

at the same time, carvin are notorious for having brittle/sterile pickups (though i argue that saying the player should EQ the pickups a bit better), so that could be playing a factor in it too.

at the same time, the camera speakers used. 

i personally would like a sound somewhere between the two if they are apples to apples. 



but in my eyes, carvin wins over prs in their single coil/coil tap category. i have yet to find any guitar with a coil tap that sounds as convincing as my carvin does. i'm using a holdsworth neck pickup and love it to bits. the bridge pickup i hardly ever use as its an ice-pick sound. but then again, i think of EVERY bridge pickup ever made...


----------



## Watty

That video and the subsequent discussion just proves that sound clips are almost a worthless indication of overall tone. To contribute to said discussion, however, I've yet to try a PRS pickup that I actually dig; their Dragon II's are horrid and the HFS/Vintage Bass combo is a bit nasally for my tastes.


----------



## Masc0t

I'm really on the fence with ordering a Carvin. I would definitely order a lower priced one without a lot of options. Are they still worth ordering if bought this way? I would probably be going bolt neck, sperzels, and possibly a tremolo with humbuckers configuration.


----------



## soliloquy

/\ just my opinion as a former agile owner, and a current carvin owner:
If you think agile are worth it for their budget, then so are carvins, regardless of the price tag


----------



## Masc0t

Okay, cool. I appreciate the advice because I'm a big fan of Agiles so I've still been looking at them, but not being able to actually try a Carvin in person kind of sucks, where-as with Agile it was less of an investment so it was easier to make a plunge for it. I've been keeping an eye out on ebay too.


----------



## LetsMosey

Masc0t said:


> Okay, cool. I appreciate the advice because I'm a big fan of Agiles so I've still been looking at them, but not being able to actually try a Carvin in person kind of sucks, where-as with Agile it was less of an investment so it was easier to make a plunge for it. I've been keeping an eye out on ebay too.



The great thing about Carvin is you can order one, deck it out, and if you get it and don't like it, you have a 10-day "trial" timeframe where you can return it for a full cash refund. I say go for it and try it. Best case, you love it and play it for life. Worst case, you hate it and get your cash back and can buy something else.


----------



## soliloquy

LetsMosey said:


> The great thing about Carvin is you can order one, deck it out, and if you get it and don't like it, you have a 10-day "trial" timeframe where you can return it for a full cash refund. I say go for it and try it. Best case, you love it and play it for life. Worst case, you hate it and get your cash back and can buy something else.



Exactly what he said

Its very similar to agiles 2 week return policy. 
If you buy a used, you wont be able to return it, nor would it be your specs (unless youre looking for generic specs)


----------



## mikernaut

Just chiming it as I recently bought a Carvin dc800 and a PRS swamp ash narrowfield.
Take it with a grain of salt but I have had some tasty ESP's, Jacksons, etc. in my collection.

I find the Carvin I bought to be pretty much on par with a USA Jackson in quality and tone. not overly crazy about the active pickups but they aren't horrible. ( I'm more into passive pups these days) 

The PRS has the narrowfield pups, 3 of them and they are really quite versatile in sound , and the guitar really sings insanely. Although I will say the overall tone is not really geared towards metal. But sweet jesus the guitar is a absolute joy to play, it's soo responsive. So in the end I'm not sure how much are really the pups or just other factors in the PRS but there is a good range with the PRS narrowfield pups at a base level. I usually never adjust my volume knob on a guitar but it makes a drastic difference with these narrowfields in adding more tonal variety,


----------



## LetsMosey

I've never purchased a stock guitar or Carvin ever expecting to love the pickups. My mindset is I'll have to replace the stock pickups in whatever guitar I purchase, whether it's an Ibanez, Jackson, PRS, etc. The same goes for Carvin. I personally like the way Carvin's passive pickups sound though.  Their actives aren't my favorite, and I'd probably end up throwing EMG's in instead if I ever got a guitar that came w/ their stock active p'ups.


----------



## lametacomeat

It looks like Carvin is offering a $100 off custom orders right now. I can't find anywhere how long it might last though.


----------



## soliloquy

ylv over on the carvinbbs forum made a gigbag for the tiny HH2 guitars. fairly cheap to make, and could be an interesting project:




ylv said:


> A ESP bag of mine, which is good quality. It is hacked.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. cut off the pocket
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2. seal the lining after pocket cut off
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3. cut the bag in to rough size
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4.the bottom foam protector
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5. attaching the bottom foam protector
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 6. sealing the bottom of the bag
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 7. roughly sealed and shaped for lining
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 8. stitched lining to the bottom
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 9. how well does it fit?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 10. relocated the handle




source: http://carvinbbs.com/viewtopic.php?t=35508


----------



## soliloquy

you know, i have owned my carvin since october of 2011. making this the third longest guitar i've owned for a period. first being my Agile AL3100 that i parted ways with as soon as i got a carvin (for obvious reasons. agiles are great guitars through and through...just carvin made me more happy) and the second being my Crafter SA hybrid guitar (only because there really isn't ANY guitar on the market right now, under the 2500 dollar mark that is like this guy...).

i've done about 6 string changes on it (still trying to figure out the best guage for the 25. scale neck), and about 3 or 4 set ups
out of my 7 years of playing, the carvin definitely has seen the most play

and even out of all of that play and wear, it still feels, plays, looks, even smells like the day i got her. 

and after EVERY set up i give her, i fall in love with it over and over again. i'm always amazed at how low i can bring the action on it, only for a bit more room for me to bring it lower. 
i love how i keep getting more and more accurate every time i pick this guitar up
i love how it sings in my hands
i love how it has killed ALL my gas for other guitars (safe for a bolt on and a set neck 24 fret guitar...my next guitar will be a CT424, and the one after will be a C66-24)



so to those hard working folks over on carvin who do the lumber, sanding, wood work, fret work, gluing, painting, drying, buffing, electric, etc work, and to keivo, THANK YOU!


----------



## mikernaut

dat purple looks amazing!


----------



## soliloquy

so ive been saving up for a ct424 for the last few months. i need to sell one of my guitars and i'll have the right funds for it as right now i have 50% saved up 



however, if i sell that guitar, i have just the right amount for the v3m that showed up used at my city....that would force me to sell my jetcity amp.... 


should i go guitar first or amp? 

the v3m with a cab is at 600 right now...


----------



## Demiurge

^Guitars are easier to show-off, so I always lean towards the scenario where there are more guitars. As long as the amp isn't the heart of your rig, of course.



And my DC600 shipped Friday, so my Carvin NGD cherry-pop is slated for next Wednesday. It's embarrassing to say, as someone who has been playing for 17 years, this is the most I've ever spent on a guitar.


----------



## Jason_Clement

I want my DC700 ;-;

march 26th can't come fast enough... 

Build thread: Carvin.com BBS :: View topic - DC700 w/ a case of the purps incoming.


----------



## soliloquy

placed an order with a few option 50s on em that wont void my return

now i'm going to put my feet up and forget about it for 6 weeks....


----------



## LetsMosey

soliloquy said:


> placed an order with a few option 50s on em that wont void my return
> 
> now i'm going to put my feet up and forget about it for 6 weeks....



Same here man! JB neck profile on my CT624, and sent a pic to match a top/quilt. 

These 6 weeks will be hard for us.  Congrats on your purchase as well.


----------



## soliloquy

/\ and to you! 
what specs are you getting on her?


----------



## LetsMosey

soliloquy said:


> /\ and to you!
> what specs are you getting on her?



CT624M - TOM bridge 
Hog body 
Quilt top 
DTS Teal 
Black gloss sides and back 
Flame maple fretboard 
5 piece maple/koa neck 
Tung oil back of neck finish 
14" radius 
Stainless steel JUMBO frets 
Abalone dot inlays 
Jason Becker neck profile 
Holdsworth headstock (matching quilt and finish) 
Abalone Carvin logo 
White pearloid tuner buttons 
S22 metal covered pickups w/ creme colored rings 
Metal dome knobs w/ abalone 
Dunlop straplocks 

Also asked them to try and match the quilt depth/3D'ness and pattern/figuring as closely as possible to this Suhr:


----------



## Francis978

So this question goes to the owners of Allan Holdsworth's signature fatboy or his headless...I am trying to decide on one, but I play metal in drop C...so would the headless be out of the question? Can I alter tuning easily is mainly what I'm wondering.


----------



## sylcfh

JCustom bridges work just fine with drop tunings. The headless would be no problem. 

I believe they top out at a .060 gauge for the lowest string though.


----------



## Francis978

So I can't go too too low then. Thank you for the information!

It'd be in drop C so I'm set!


----------



## sylcfh

I use a .060 and tune to B (but I've never been into very heavy strings)...


----------



## soliloquy

this is now a standard color






and my postcard came in for may the 1st...prolly get here earlier...


----------



## kgerbick7321

I just put an order for a CT624 with this finish:




And with these specs





Id really like to see how your guys' orders came out and wht you think of them, good or bad


----------



## soliloquy

my CT424





thread:
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/standard-guitars/237275-ngd-carvin-ct424-bokeh.html



Appollyon's buckeye burl CS6










thread:


----------



## soliloquy

there are plenty of CT/CS in this thread
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/standard-guitars/158783-carvin-thread-12.html


----------



## Be_eM

kgerbick7321 said:


> I just put an order for a CT624 with this finish:





soliloquy said:


> there are plenty of CT/CS in this thread
> http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/standard-guitars/158783-carvin-thread-12.html




 and the shown guitar is a CS, not a CT, isn't it?


----------



## kgerbick7321

soliloquy said:


> there are plenty of CT/CS in this thread
> http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/standard-guitars/158783-carvin-thread-12.html


 
I understand that, i thought it would be nice to have a CT6 exclusive thread



Be_eM said:


> and the shown guitar is a CS, not a CT, isn't it?


 

This was the closest thing i could get to the ct design, using a high quality guitar creator/editor. Check it out if you havent already!

Frank Montag


----------



## Talmaci

oh my god! These Carvins are so adorable!


----------



## kgerbick7321

Just put in an order for a ct624 with this paint/hardware scheme yesterday


----------



## Hybrid138

this reminds that I need to take some new pics of mine...


----------



## OlisDead

Those are pics from one of the previous owners (engage757 here) but here is my CT6 :


----------



## Be_eM

kgerbick7321 said:


> This was the closest thing i could get to the ct design, using a high quality guitar creator/editor. Check it out if you havent already!




Ah, OK no need to check it, I've got a finished one


----------



## Jack Secret

No pics or anything for 2 months? Blasphemy!

To rectify, here are my 4 DC600's in their glory...

Carvin DC600 Alder




Carvin DC600 Swamp Ash SB




Carvin DC600 Swamp Ash VS




Carvin DC600 Swamp Ash/Flame Maple Top





My next plan is a V220 in mahogany body/flamed maple top/mahogany neck/ebony board in aquaburst...because I really like the aquaburst.


----------



## LetsMosey

Totally forgot to post my NGD pics in here too! 






More pics here:
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/standard-guitars/235964-ngd-carvin-ct624m-deep-teal-quilt-here.html


----------



## Garnoch

Great guitars, guys! I forgot too, so here you go....











http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/3633413-post1.html


----------



## TheWarAgainstTime

The only Carvin I've had is my newish TL60, which kicks all kinds of ass  

All walnut, ebony board, satin white w/tortoise shell binding and tung oiled neck. 

As soon as an extended scale is an option for the DC700 I'm gonna order one haha


----------



## that short guy

I may have missed it in here, and if so I'm sorry, but can anyone tell me what the necks on the DC800's are like


----------



## Astral Worm

Well I have joined the Carvin club! Bought this exact model used at guitar center for $400 bucks! 

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34779&stc=1&d=1376579270


----------



## Dawn of the Shred

What sunburst is that DC600?


----------



## pushpull7

OlisDead said:


> Those are pics from one of the previous owners (engage757 here) but here is my CT6 :



What color is this please?


----------



## pushpull7

So..........

I do not want another ibby (nothing against them, I have plenty) and I cannot afford a Mayones. I'm seriously looking into Carvin. First problem I've run into is that a little color swatch doesn't show me what the final product I might want looks like. Second, pups. I just don't know what they are like and I don't want to order a perfectly good guitar and then HAVE to change the pups. Third is I want a satin neck, but it's not quite clear to me if it's going to be the nice satin type of some fenders or ibby (ibby usually requires a light sand and gun stock oil) 

There is the 22 vs 24 fret thing too. I think I want a 22 since I'm not the crazy tapper/upper player some of the killer guitarists on this site are. 

Other than that, I've got no issue with 20% down and a 5-8 week wait. I'm pretty confident about the quality and the looks cannot be denied!


----------



## Pikka Bird

median said:


> For example, I think this is a beautiful guitar. Change the head-stock up a bit and I might be into it...



And you know what? You totally can if you order your own.  That's the "magic" of Carvin.


----------



## OlisDead

chrisharbin said:


> What color is this please?



Faded blue denim with a thin black burst.


----------



## pushpull7

Is this thread only for pics? Should I start another thread for questions?


----------



## axxessdenied

Be_eM said:


> Ah, OK no need to check it, I've got a finished one



DAT IS SO HAWT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## pushpull7

OlisDead said:


> Faded blue denim with a thin black burst.



Hmmmmmm. didn't see that as an option. Lovely guitar though.


----------



## TheWarAgainstTime

I posted about my TL60 on the previous page, but forgot all about the pics  

Sex ahoy!
















More photos near the end of the first page of my NGD thread: 

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/standard-guitars/242438-ngd-carvin-tl60-few-pleasant-surprises.html


----------



## Garnoch

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/st...0-koa-wings-flamed-koa-flamed-maple-neck.html


----------



## LetsMosey

^that neck! OMG.


----------



## pushpull7

I think this thread needs a bump. I've got 4 weeks till mine comes.


----------



## Garnoch

Nice, so you did order one! Congrats. If I remember right, did you go for a CT?


----------



## pushpull7

Yep. Gold top CT4m with I think the same bridge pup as you but I wanted to try the Gambale neck. Really..........hard........waiting!

You still diggin' yours?


----------



## Jack Secret

Think it's time for another pic of my Carvin's, no?

My first (of 4) DC600's - Swamp ash body in vintage sunburst. A fine replacement for the Ibanez PGM401 that I liked very much but I was tired of Ibanez and the move to Carvin has not been regretted for an instant.






Look at that gorgeous grainage. I do loves me some swamp ash bodies.


----------



## shadowlife

This thread is a constant reminder that someday i must own a Carvin.


----------



## pushpull7

shadowlife said:


> This thread is a constant reminder that someday i must own a Carvin.



You must. I know, I know, I'm a Carvin noob and the honeymoon is still going, but I cannot get over how good the Carvin I got feels, sounds and plays. Oh, and it looks stunning too  Can't wait for my next one (though I have to wait till next year)


----------



## Helixx Guitars

Looks like I found a home.


----------



## Garnoch

chrisharbin said:


> You must. I know, I know, I'm a Carvin noob and the honeymoon is still going, but I cannot get over how good the Carvin I got feels, sounds and plays. Oh, and it looks stunning too  Can't wait for my next one (though I have to wait till next year)



Agreed. I'll be getting my third in '14 for sure.


----------



## Joh

Took a few more shots with a proper camera a while back. Hope you enjoy!

















Got a little artsy with this one :wink:


----------



## ceiling_fan

That thing is awesome! What kind of finish is on that? Can you feel the grain well?


----------



## Joh

ceiling_fan said:


> That thing is awesome! What kind of finish is on that? Can you feel the grain well?



Thanks man! It's Carvin's own Tung-Oil finish. You actually can feel the grain to some degree, especially the bigger deeper sections, but this particular guitar(and maybe even model) is very smooth all around as well.


----------



## Jack Secret

Ya know, someone asked me recently on another guitar forum's PM if I regret the Great Ibanez Purge of 2011 where I got rid of about 40 Ibanez guitars (plus a few other companies) in exchange for the 14 Carvin guitars, 2 carvin basses and the 1 Caparison TAT Special. Honestly, though I may feel a twinge of regret on occasion for my USA Customs Graphics (especially the Necromancer's Castle), I'm pretty well content with what I have. Not saying Carvin is a perfect company or that they haven't made screwups but they've never done wrong by me. 

If anything, I wish they had more color choices. They did just bring out a translucent pink that could be enticing next custom.


----------



## TimothyLeary

jorona11 said:


> Took a few more shots with a proper camera a while back. Hope you enjoy!
> 
> Got a little artsy with this one :wink:



pure sex!! beautiful.


----------



## pushpull7

I really should think more about learning some photography methods. My PAS doesn't do justice to my guitar photos.


----------



## Taylord

This is my favorite shot of it. Killer axe dood.


----------



## soliloquy

official 'black denim'


----------



## pushpull7

That black denim is really nice.

I'm thinking about spalted next year when I get my next one.


----------



## mbardu

Gotta post some pictures of my C66 here as well


----------



## that short guy

Had to come in here and share my DC800, I'm in love with the way this thing looks


----------



## feraledge

Thanks thread. GAS has overcome me. 
I think I decided at 2 AM last night that I'm going to start saving for a TL with a top mounted Floyd (+$200, I asked) and probably one of these denim bursts. 
Thanks Option 50, I think Carvin won my tax return.


----------



## pushpull7

I seriously doubt you'll be disappointed. I just about dropped dead when I opened the case on my Carvin I got recently. I just starred at it for a while. Then I played it! Things got even better 

What shocked me the most is how good the pups sound. It's my best sounding guitar.


----------



## 0 Xero 0

In case anyone missed it, Mark Holcomb of Periphery is now using Carvins for 7s and 8s. 
INTERVIEW: Periphery&#8217;s Mark Holcomb | I Heart Guitar
[email protected] | Fell in love with this Carvin DC800 as my main 8 string on this past tour. Pi... | Webstagram

Francesco appears to have jumped aboard as well. This is very exciting news! This can only increase Carvins exposure and bring more and better changes to the brand!
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=711573192200380&set=a.121808991176806.15147.112349302122775&type=1


----------



## HighGain510

soliloquy said:


> official 'black denim'



Mmmm Black Denim looks fantastic! 



mbardu said:


> Gotta post some pictures of my C66 here as well




I think whenever I order my next flamed maple-topped Carvin, it's a toss-up between Black Denim and that burst you got on yours! That thing is smoking!!!


----------



## mbardu

I love the way Carvin delivered on that finish. 

Thank you for the high praise! I'm rather new here, but I've seen a few of your guitars, and it seems like you have and have had a few cuties yourself. I really envy your latest p22 for instance!


----------



## 0 Xero 0

Hey, if anyone is bored, I posted on the Carvin facebook page asking if they're going to offer hipshots or copies of them on the 6 and 7 strings. Maybe if enough people comment or like it we can gain some ground. 

Also, I'm really curious to see if they've changed their stance on pickups. Mark has signatures in the works and Francesco uses BKPs and swapped them into the CT724 already. Perhaps they'll start offering them... Probably not, but who knows


----------



## mbardu

0 Xero 0 said:


> Hey, if anyone is bored, I posted on the Carvin facebook page asking if they're going to offer hipshots or copies of them on the 6 and 7 strings. Maybe if enough people comment or like it we can gain some ground.
> 
> Also, I'm really curious to see if they've changed their stance on pickups. Mark has signatures in the works and Francesco uses BKPs and swapped them into the CT724 already. Perhaps they'll start offering them... Probably not, but who knows



For pickups, they are already accepting custom requests - e.g. you send them the pickups and they install them instead of the Carvins.

Unlikely that they would provide a range of other brands as 'standard' though.
They're very proud of their own pickups (and for good reason) and it might be tricky for them to handle from a logistics point of view too. Who knows...never say never...but anyway it won't change my life; I love Carvin pickups  .


----------



## soliloquy




----------



## mbardu

Oh so we're back to doing pictures


----------



## mbardu

soliloquy said:


>



Pink becoming fashionable again it seems


----------



## pushpull7

BTW, I WANT that bass!


----------



## Samark

I am having problems sleeping because I can't decide on what colour combo I want 

Driving my gf nuts haha


----------



## HighGain510

mbardu said:


> Pink becoming fashionable again it seems



Pink is always fashionable if the guitar has the curves to pull it off! 








Man Francesco's CT7 looks hot as hell! 






As a lover of metallic finishes on carved/contoured tops, I approve! Still not a fan of the diamond or signature inlays, but it's Carvin... so you can change that when you order one!  Everything else on that one is downright sexy!


----------



## lewstherin006

I like Francesco's guitar, but that head stock is killing me! I really like the headstocks on the DC series. I guess I like pointing things?


----------



## HighGain510

lewstherin006 said:


> I like Francesco's guitar, but that head stock is killing me! I really like the headstocks on the DC series. I guess I like pointing things?



Agreed, they stretched it out too far so the D-string tuner just looks out of place, not to mention even worse string pull going on. If I ordered one, I'd go with the DC727 standard headstock personally. The pointed headstock looks decent on the DC body, but on the CT it looks out of place a bit.  DC headstock looks good on all of them!


----------



## soliloquy

i personally dont really 'need' this guitar, and i've been pretty good with controlling gas for the last 4ish years or so. i've been holding from buying guitars for a while as i try saving for a Carvin SH575. however, this lil guy came in and now i'm debating that...i still want an SH575, but a 'beater' guitar in this would be fun to have.





i'm thinking swamp ash wings and top, either mahogany, walnut, or alder (2 or 3 piece like holdsworth) neck, tung oil all over with birds eye board and reverse in line headstock. no frills or anything fancy, but its simplicity would/should be awesome. give or take about $1200 or so seems like a good deal...


----------



## mbardu

HighGain510 said:


> Agreed, they stretched it out too far so the D-string tuner just looks out of place, not to mention even worse string pull going on. If I ordered one, I'd go with the DC727 standard headstock personally. The pointed headstock looks decent on the DC body, but on the CT it looks out of place a bit.  DC headstock looks good on all of them!



To each their own.
The only headstock I would order in a CT7 would be the pointy one 4+3!


----------



## mbardu

HighGain510 said:


> Pink is always fashionable if the guitar has the curves to pull it off!



Curves curves....

Let's not forget flat drop tops either


----------



## pushpull7

I like the headstock in question


----------



## mbardu

soliloquy said:


> i personally dont really 'need' this guitar, and i've been pretty good with controlling gas for the last 4ish years or so. i've been holding from buying guitars for a while as i try saving for a Carvin SH575. however, this lil guy came in and now i'm debating that...i still want an SH575, but a 'beater' guitar in this would be fun to have.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i'm thinking swamp ash wings and top, either mahogany, walnut, or alder (2 or 3 piece like holdsworth) neck, tung oil all over with birds eye board and reverse in line headstock. no frills or anything fancy, but its simplicity would/should be awesome. give or take about $1200 or so seems like a good deal...



Hmm are you sure about plain tung oil...?

Looks like this guitar would particularly shine with colors, no?

I guess we need to wait for a few more to pop up - it's still very new..
Looks like they are starting to pop up:


----------



## Francis978

Here's my carvin HH2! Still just as in love with this thing as I was day one! 

Here's the NGD thread if you want specs 

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/st...-ngd-headless-carvin-content.html#post3582875


----------



## soliloquy

mbardu said:


> Hmm are you sure about plain tung oil...?
> 
> Looks like this guitar would particularly shine with colors, no?
> 
> I guess we need to wait for a few more to pop up - it's still very new..
> Looks like they are starting to pop up:



the top does look nice, but this is the inspiration. very basic/minimal:


----------



## SnowfaLL

I payed for my "dream" superstrat 6 string order tuesday. It's one expensive ST300T, after the CAD dropped like mad and the Canadian shipping change, along with all the crazy opt 50s I put on it (Roasted Maple neck woods that I supplied, custom finish over one piece quilted maple top) but it should be well worth it. 

So excited / nervous at the same time. Oh man. If there are no mistakes, this will be the awesomest ST300 ever. The most expensive guitar I've ever ordered for sure. The wait begins.

Essentially.. 






(only change from picture, creme truss rod cover)


----------



## pushpull7

Go Carvin Go!


----------



## kuhboom

NickCormier said:


> I payed for my "dream" superstrat 6 string order tuesday. It's one expensive ST300T, after the CAD dropped like mad and the Canadian shipping change, along with all the crazy opt 50s I put on it (Roasted Maple neck woods that I supplied, custom finish over one piece quilted maple top) but it should be well worth it.
> 
> So excited / nervous at the same time. Oh man. If there are no mistakes, this will be the awesomest ST300 ever. The most expensive guitar I've ever ordered for sure. The wait begins.
> 
> Essentially..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (only change from picture, creme truss rod cover)



You're getting a roasted maple neck with this Nick?? That's going to be killer. Is the fretboard going to be roasted as well? I'm pumped to see how this turns out man!


----------



## SnowfaLL

thanks kuhboom, your dc600 photoshop images was actually sent in the mail yesterday =] Yeah, Roasted maple but just the back of the neck, 5 piece. The fretboard will be normal maple (I like the natural maple coloring/feel)

Carvin requires an unusually large piece of wood for their neckthrus, and I've emailed 20 different companies to find roasted maple wood - all of them were 1/8" off in thickness.. (Carvin reqr 2 1/8" thickness minimum, while everywhere sells 2" thickness). So I luckily found a guy locally who roasts his own maple, and he found me a larger piece and roasted it for me. Was 4 times more expensive than the other companies, all for that 1/8" in thickness.. but oh well, thats my life.


----------



## The Spanish Inquisition

mbardu said:


>



I cringed, I thought it was a tearout at first


----------



## mbardu

The Spanish Inquisition said:


> I cringed, I thought it was a tearout at first



Haha no, that guitar is fine. 

In fact, now that's they've fixed an issue with the initial build, it's very close to perfect


----------



## Cloudy

soliloquy said:


> the top does look nice, but this is the inspiration. very basic/minimal:




Oh god that makes me cringe...its so close to falling into the water oh god no.




But serious that is one badass blackwater, not sure how I feel about the new carved carvin...I still prefer the older models.

Glad they did the 27" 7 finally though.


----------



## OneLazyAssMotherFucker

Goddamn that CT7 makes my penis turn into the big penis


----------



## nicktao

OneLazyAss............ said:


> Goddamn that CT7 makes my penis turn into the big penis






I'm still waiting for 25.5...


----------



## mbardu

Looks like the Dreamburst finish is getting some attention ... 











Well I won't say I'm surprised... I knew it was going to be copied... But at least I'll always have the first one  

I'm definitely happy to have gone with a chevron flamed instead of a quilt though. I feel it suits the finish much better


----------



## Alberto7

mbardu said:


> I'm definitely happy to have gone with a chevron flamed instead of a quilt though. I feel it suits the finish much better



I agree. I adore that finish, but it can only be on tightly flamed maple. Otherwise I don't find it as striking. I still like it, but, for some reason, it doesn't impress me as much.


----------



## TheWarAgainstTime

nicktao said:


> I'm still waiting for 25.5...



All of their 7 string models (other than the DC7x) are 25.5"

It's only the 6 string models (other than the Holdsworths) that are 25"


----------



## 12enoB

So I was just in the hollywood carvin store this evening. It appears they're doing some rad deals on guitars with sperzel locking tuners because they're trying to phase them out (like $200 or more off). 

They had a dc800 for less than base price, and it had some sweet options. I'm itching to pull the trigger... but my bank account is telling me otherwise.


----------



## redragon




----------



## Samark

Direct mounted pickups on a DC145??? :O


----------



## Cloudy

Samark said:


> Direct mounted pickups on a DC145??? :O



Direct mounted pickups has been an opt 50 for quite some time on most models.


----------



## pushpull7

(whining voice)

I really want to order another Carvin but I've just had too many "out of the blue" bills to justify it.


----------



## Jack Secret

I think there's a DC600 in black limba in my near future. That is one sexy damn wood.


----------



## axxessdenied

I have DC800. Great guitar... but I'm pretty sure my ebony fretboard has shrunk a tiny bit because the fret wire is sticking out a little more and is in need of a dressing to clean it up now......


----------



## axxessdenied

mbardu said:


> Looks like the Dreamburst finish is getting some attention ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well I won't say I'm surprised... I knew it was going to be copied... But at least I'll always have the first one
> 
> I'm definitely happy to have gone with a chevron flamed instead of a quilt though. I feel it suits the finish much better


WHAT THE .... I NED A GUITAR IN THIS PAINT!!


----------



## Jack Secret

Well, I'm getting perilously closer to making a decision on getting a DC600 hardtail in all black limba. DC600 is probably my favorite Carvin right now (owning 4 as we type) but I do not have a Strat shaped hardtail currently and this needs to be rectified. Now, being past my guitar hoarding days, I will have to sell off a guitar or two just to keep my collection at a workable level (14 guitars is workable, yes? ) So! I believe I'll drop my HF2 fatboy in walnut for one. I bought if off the 'bay and it's been ok to noodle on but never been a go-to guitar for recording. The other will be my TL60 in mahogany with splated maple top that was my first custom made Carvin. I had it made for studio work in NYC with the piezo in it so that along with my CT624 would cover a wide range of what I needed but I never got back to NYC for studio work so this one languishes in its case and as longtime Jack Secret/GuitarAnthony fans, you know if a guitar is not getting used, I'd rather it find a good home that leave it to never be used. 

I will order a DC600 with A60 pickups with black limba neck/body, ebony board with no inlays, reverse inline headstock, gold hardware and my infamous gloss body/satin neck combo. It will, undoubtedly, be glorious. It's Carvin. How could it not be?


----------



## SnowfaLL

whats the fretboard radius on the walnut HF2?? And if you want a strat shaped hardtail, I recommend the ST300 =] Best model Carvin makes IMO. Can't wait for mine. I may use a neckthru blank and make my own ST 7 string rather than buying another DC727/700 even, I like it that much more than the DC shapes.


----------



## Jack Secret

NickCormier said:


> whats the fretboard radius on the walnut HF2?? And if you want a strat shaped hardtail, I recommend the ST300 =] Best model Carvin makes IMO. Can't wait for mine. I may use a neckthru blank and make my own ST 7 string rather than buying another DC727/700 even, I like it that much more than the DC shapes.



HF2 is the standard 20" radius. Great guitar but it's just not getting used. I'd rather have the DC600 because I love the A60 active pups.


----------



## Alberto7

Okay, I'm _really_ digging this:


----------



## TheWarAgainstTime

Sliiiiiiick


----------



## 12enoB

Alberto7 said:


> Okay, I'm _really_ digging this:



Wow, I am usually not a fan of that shape....

but wow....


----------



## cataclysm_child

Made this video with my trusty DC727


----------



## Alberto7

That's the first Carvin I ever saw when you first did your Icarus Lives! cover, and what inspired me to get my own. I'm always happy to see it in action. Sick video, Michael, that thing sounds massive, and the riffage is heeaavvvyyy!


----------



## 12enoB

Alberto7 said:


> Okay, I'm _really_ digging this:



I went to the hollywood store today and this guitar was there. Maybe its because I've never played a fresh from the factory instrument before, but this was the best playing and sounding guitar I've ever put my hands on. I'm highly considering purchasing it.

Also, I'm not able to link the picture but look at the red and black one with the natural binding showing. Holy crap its gorgeous. Carvin.com : SCB6 SINGLE CUTAWAY BEVEL-TOP GUITAR



cataclysm_child said:


> Made this video with my trusty DC727




That song was ....ing awesome, and that guitar is awesome.


----------



## SnowfaLL

Figure I'll post pictures of the "other" Spiderman-burst DC727.. Even though I plan on selling it once my ST300 nears completion.. Still a sweet guitar though.
















With the AxeFX II + Mackie DLM8 in my tiny room..


----------



## TRENCHLORD

In the new Carvin mag I'm sure many of you have seen.
Got it a week or two ago but hadn't had the browse yet.
Anyways. Jackson if you're nasty.





graaabbbmeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Alberto7

12enoB said:


> I went to the hollywood store today and this guitar was there. Maybe its because I've never played a fresh from the factory instrument before, but this was the best playing and sounding guitar I've ever put my hands on. I'm highly considering purchasing it.
> 
> Also, I'm not able to link the picture but look at the red and black one with the natural binding showing. Holy crap its gorgeous. Carvin.com : SCB6 SINGLE CUTAWAY BEVEL-TOP GUITAR



You lucky you. I had never thought of a guitar in that color scheme; white and brown is a very, very classy combination of colors. The black/red one with natural binding on their website is very striking. They definitely went with the right choice of colors to emphasize the beveled top. I don't feel that the SCB6 works well with the more traditional color combinations that Carvin has always worked with, but it provides a lot of new great possibilities looks-wise. It's a good next step for Carvin design-wise, I feel. If, on top of that, it plays as good as you say it does... well, f_u_ck.


----------



## Jack Secret

To my surprise, my HF2 sold first day for a nifty price. I have decided to order my DC600 hardtail in gorgeous black limba korina (and I will ask for extra streaky wood) in 2 weeks so 2 months later when it is ready, it will be my birthday. Still have the TL60 to go.


----------



## cataclysm_child

Alberto7 said:


> That's the first Carvin I ever saw when you first did your Icarus Lives! cover, and what inspired me to get my own. I'm always happy to see it in action. Sick video, Michael, that thing sounds massive, and the riffage is heeaavvvyyy!



Really? Haha, that's cool 
Thanks pal 



12enoB said:


> That song was ....ing awesome, and that guitar is awesome.



Thank you sir. Glad you like it 



NickCormier said:


> Figure I'll post pictures of the "other" Spiderman-burst DC727.. Even though I plan on selling it once my ST300 nears completion.. Still a sweet guitar though.



That's a nice quilt top!


----------



## 12enoB

Alberto7 said:


> You lucky you. I had never thought of a guitar in that color scheme; white and brown is a very, very classy combination of colors. The black/red one with natural binding on their website is very striking. They definitely went with the right choice of colors to emphasize the beveled top. I don't feel that the SCB6 works well with the more traditional color combinations that Carvin has always worked with, but it provides a lot of new great possibilities looks-wise. It's a good next step for Carvin design-wise, I feel. If, on top of that, it plays as good as you say it does... well, f_u_ck.



I looked at the price of ordering one, and it seems to be about the same as if I buy that one. So I'm thinking about ordering a similar spec'd one with surf green on the back and white on the front. But I'm not sure what top wood I want to use to be shown as the natural binding. Not really worth it to buy a super expensive top when only a fraction of it can be seen.


----------



## Alberto7

cataclysm_child said:


> Really? Haha, that's cool
> Thanks pal



Haha not a problem, you actually did kind of help me on selecting the specs. Sent you a few PM's on YouTube like 4 years ago asking for info and recommendations on the off-chance that some day I'd get a Carvin (ended up ordering like 2 weeks later ), though I wouldn't think you'd remember.  Since I like whoring my guitar, here's a couple of pics I took of it this last summer (cellphone pics though; still no high-quality photos of it, sadly):













12enoB said:


> I looked at the price of ordering one, and it seems to be about the same as if I buy that one. So I'm thinking about ordering a similar spec'd one with surf green on the back and white on the front. But I'm not sure what top wood I want to use to be shown as the natural binding. Not really worth it to buy a super expensive top when only a fraction of it can be seen.



Make it a maple top, and make it matte, so it'll look like toothpaste.  But no, seafoam green back (which I'm assuming is the same as surf green, no?) with white front and a koa top would look good, I think, although I'm not sure how much I'd like different colors for the front and back, to be honest. If I were to order for myself, I'd probably keep both back and front the same color. I've been pleasantly surprised before though


----------



## cataclysm_child

Alberto7 said:


> Haha not a problem, you actually did kind of help me on selecting the specs. Sent you a few PM's on YouTube like 4 years ago asking for info and recommendations on the off-chance that some day I'd get a Carvin (ended up ordering like 2 weeks later ), though I wouldn't think you'd remember.  Since I like whoring my guitar, here's a couple of pics I took of it this last summer (cellphone pics though; still no high-quality photos of it, sadly):



Very nice! Got to love that tung oil finish! 
That's a flamed koa top, right? And koa neck with maple stripes?
Almost got the same one myself, except a sandwiched koa/maple body instead of swamp ash wings.


----------



## Alberto7

You are correct, aaannd that first picture of your koa DC727 has been my phone's wallpaper for the past 6 months or so... I swear I am not a creeper.  So awkward.  It's just that your taste in guitars is impeccable, and you do happen to own some of my all-time favorite Carvins.


----------



## 0 Xero 0

Both your video and guitar are awesome, Michael! I've never seen a burst like that... That gives me an idea on how to do mine whenever I can get around to ordering it! 

Hey, NickCormier, what did you use to mock up the color scheme on your upcoming ST300?


----------



## SnowfaLL

There is a photoshop file on the carvin bbs named DC600.. Try to search for it, should come up. If you are familiar with layers in photoshop, use that and can pretty much make anything you want. But I also got help specifically for mine from the creator, Kuhboom.


----------



## sylcfh

I really like the SC90 body shape. The typical LP shape and its clones offered by most companies don't have the right proportions.


----------



## Jack Secret

In a shocking move, I've decided to sell off both my Carvin basses as well. I just don't play bass that much any more. Besides, I can always buy more pedals with the earnings. You can never have too many pedals.


----------



## 0 Xero 0

Drat, I don't have photoshop. Oh well, that's what my imagination is for, haha.


----------



## lewstherin006

sylcfh said:


> I really like the SC90 body shape. The typical LP shape and its clones offered by most companies don't have the right proportions.



I actually just got a SC90 off craigslist. It is a pretty nice guitar and it is the first single cut that I own. It is very light unlike a LP.


----------



## Jack Secret

I know many of you have missed ol' GuitarAnthony/Jack Secret's crazy Carvin NGD's so after leaving 2013 barren of orders, it's time...oh yes, it's time! 

DC600 

SS - String Saver Saddles for Fixed Bridge 
NLMB - Black Limba Korina Neck & Body 
-CG - Clear Gloss Finish (Standard) 
CSN - Clear Satin Finish Back Of Neck (Natural Wood) 
RIN - Reverse Inline Headstock 
BPH - Black Painted Headstock 
EFB - Ebony Fingerboard 
NIN - No Top Inlays - Side Dots Only 
STF - Stainless Med-Jumbo Frets .048" H .103" W 
-R14 - 14in Fretboard Radius (Standard) 
A6B - A60B Bridge PU w/ Active Electronics (black only, must order A60N) 
A6N - A60N Neck PU w/ Active Electronics (black only, must order A60B) 
G - Gold Hardware 
009 - Elixir 942E Super Light Gauge .009 - .042 
GL - Gold Plated Carvin Logo 
ETR - Engraved Truss Rod Cover Black 
Truss Rod Engraving: 
Line 1: GUITAR 
Line 2: ANTHONY 
HC10 - Black Tolex Hardshell Guitar Case 

I'm sure as with all Carvin's, it will bleed magnificence. I've sold off 1 guitar and 1 bass and still have another guitar and bass looking for homes. I will be at 14 guitars (12 Carvins, a Caparison TAT Special and an "Ibafake" 540PII that I made myself). 

Stay tuned! (We're guitar players, we always stay tuned  )


----------



## Samark

Woops!


----------



## 12enoB

Jack Secret said:


> I know many of you have missed ol' GuitarAnthony/Jack Secret's crazy Carvin NGD's so after leaving 2013 barren of orders, it's time...oh yes, it's time!
> 
> DC600
> 
> SS - String Saver Saddles for Fixed Bridge
> NLMB - Black Limba Korina Neck & Body
> -CG - Clear Gloss Finish (Standard)
> CSN - Clear Satin Finish Back Of Neck (Natural Wood)
> RIN - Reverse Inline Headstock
> BPH - Black Painted Headstock
> EFB - Ebony Fingerboard
> NIN - No Top Inlays - Side Dots Only
> STF - Stainless Med-Jumbo Frets .048" H .103" W
> -R14 - 14in Fretboard Radius (Standard)
> A6B - A60B Bridge PU w/ Active Electronics (black only, must order A60N)
> A6N - A60N Neck PU w/ Active Electronics (black only, must order A60B)
> G - Gold Hardware
> 009 - Elixir 942E Super Light Gauge .009 - .042
> GL - Gold Plated Carvin Logo
> ETR - Engraved Truss Rod Cover Black
> Truss Rod Engraving:
> Line 1: GUITAR
> Line 2: ANTHONY
> HC10 - Black Tolex Hardshell Guitar Case
> 
> I'm sure as with all Carvin's, it will bleed magnificence. I've sold off 1 guitar and 1 bass and still have another guitar and bass looking for homes. I will be at 14 guitars (12 Carvins, a Caparison TAT Special and an "Ibafake" 540PII that I made myself).
> 
> Stay tuned! (We're guitar players, we always stay tuned  )



I'm psyched to see what the dc 600 looks like with the black limba. Grats on the new build.


----------



## lewstherin006

MY new baby


----------



## Jack Secret

12enoB said:


> I'm psyched to see what the dc 600 looks like with the black limba. Grats on the new build.



Thanks. I didn't have any orders done since Sept 2012 but I thought it was time. Basically, Carvin brought something to the custom shop that baited me into ordering.


----------



## mcrdsd911

sorry for the not so great cell pics, but here's my recent build with carvin.... I love it


----------



## 12enoB

mcrdsd911 said:


> sorry for the not so great cell pics, but here's my recent build with carvin.... I love it



Beautiful top! Looks like ripples in a pond.


----------



## ramses

mcrdsd911 said:


> sorry for the not so great cell pics, but here's my recent build with carvin.... I love it



Amazing walnut top. Have fun with it


----------



## Samark

Awesome mate! Birdseye fretboard?


----------



## pushpull7

mcrdsd911 said:


> sorry for the not so great cell pics, but here's my recent build with carvin.... I love it



Er, did I miss it or did you NOT NGD yet? 

Anyways, looks wonderful.


----------



## nicktao

Misha inspired? Looks sweet!


----------



## mcrdsd911

Thanks guys ! and yes samark, it is a birdseye maple ;0. Chrisharbin, I posted a NGD on it about 2 months ago, but never posted pics in the Carvin thread ha


----------



## frogman81

Hope I don't offend any Carvin purists, but does anyone know if Carvin has plans to incorporate Hipshot hardware? I'm kinda curious try a hipshot guitar to see what all the fuss is about over their hard tail bridge and their open gear tuners just, uhh... Look cool


----------



## mbardu

Don't they have a Hipshot bridge on the new DC7x actually?

Might be a sign of things to come.

Their locking 19-1 tuners are very good already though.


----------



## TheWarAgainstTime

The DC800 and DC7X have Hipshot bridges, and you can swap the tuners afterwards if you really want to, but the Carvin locking tuners are actually really good


----------



## sylcfh

cataclysm_child said:


> Very nice! Got to love that tung oil finish!
> That's a flamed koa top, right? And koa neck with maple stripes?
> Almost got the same one myself, except a sandwiched koa/maple body instead of swamp ash wings.






What kind of finish does that have?


----------



## Alberto7

^ Tung-oil neck and body.


----------



## Samark

DC600 order put through


----------



## Jack Secret

Samark said:


> DC600 order put through



Welcome to the Carvin fold, brother.


----------



## pushpull7

Samark said:


> DC600 order put through



Enjoy the wait. It will likely be a slight bit shorter than you expect and when you get it, your jaw will likely drop a bit


----------



## Jack Secret

I got my infamous Carvin postcard. Due 3/31. Meanwhile, the Guitars In Stock page taunts me. TAUNTS! Goddamn made for NAMM guitars.


----------



## Cloudy

Ill just leave this here.


----------



## Alberto7

O_O


----------



## lewstherin006

Holy crap what wood is that?


----------



## guitarmadillo

sylcfh said:


> What kind of finish does that have?



And what kind of electronics too? Is that synth access, piezo and active eq?


----------



## Cloudy

lewstherin006 said:


> Holy crap what wood is that?



Thatd be Black Limba, new wood option on all carvins ( or most of them at least.)


----------



## Reganito

I've got a bolt kit a bass kit and one of those Cobalt acoustics they used to sell. I love them all. I even like the c22b humbucker in my bolt kit.


----------



## pushpull7

Cloudy said:


> Ill just leave this here.



holy mother of beautiful, really? Is that going to be u?


----------



## Jack Secret

chrisharbin said:


> holy mother of beautiful, really? Is that going to be u?



It's not going to be me, sadly, as I have the reverse inline headstock and no Floyd order but I can only pray my DC600 has an ass like that.


----------



## Jack Secret

Thinking the thread needs a new and sexy Koa-splosion pic...


----------



## 12enoB

I've got a N(used)GD coming in either friday or next week. I think some of you may recognize it. I'm pretty psyched!


----------



## Jack Secret

12enoB said:


> I've got a N(used)GD coming in either friday or next week. I think some of you may recognize it. I'm pretty psyched!



I hope it's not that abysmal horrible graphic one from the 'bay. Feels like that thing has been up for years.


----------



## electriceye

Jack Secret said:


> Thinking the thread needs a new and sexy Koa-splosion pic...



Wow! I've never seen one of those in koa. That's a HUGE slab! It's like a table.


----------



## Jack Secret

electriceye said:


> Wow! I've never seen one of those in koa. That's a HUGE slab! It's like a table.



Well, it's a koa body WITH a koa top for a little extra tasty koa goodness.


----------



## Albek

This is mine


----------



## pushpull7

Albek said:


> This is mine



Lovely, what did you swap out in the bridge?


----------



## Albek

chrisharbin said:


> Lovely, what did you swap out in the bridge?



I removed the stock pickup and replaced it with a BKP ceramic nailbomb. I was wondering to replace also the neck pickup with a BKP VHII or a cold sweat


----------



## Alberto7

^ That is spankin'


----------



## Helixx Guitars

cataclysm_child said:


> Very nice! Got to love that tung oil finish!
> That's a flamed koa top, right? And koa neck with maple stripes?
> Almost got the same one myself, except a sandwiched koa/maple body instead of swamp ash wings.



NICE!!!


----------



## Matthew

My searches haven't returned results, so can any HH2 owners chime in on neck dimensions? I know I can op50 a thinner carve, but will Carvin do specs I ask for or offer something of their own? I'm most comfortable with Ibanez necks, so suggestions on other Carvin models would be most welcome.

Carvin really appeals to me for my next guitar, but if I can only get vintage style specs it's a no go.


----------



## TRENCHLORD

The Jason Becker profile is fairly thin.
19mm at the first fret and 21.5mm at the 12th, so it's basically a standard DC neck but with a slightly thinner taper towards the nut.

If it's the wizzard2 neck you like then the Becker profile will be very close.
If it's the super-thin wizzard prestige you like then you're basically S.O.L..


----------



## Matthew

TRENCHLORD said:


> The Jason Becker profile is fairly thin.
> 19mm at the first fret and 21.5mm at the 12th, so it's basically a standard DC neck but with a slightly thinner taper towards the nut.
> 
> If it's the wizzard2 neck you like then the Becker profile will be very close.
> If it's the super-thin wizzard prestige you like then you're basically S.O.L..



Thank you! Looks like Carvin is an option for me. I play both the wizard prestige(18/20/430mmR) and the wizard 3 (19/21/400mmR) and I find the w3 to be the most comfortable.

Now to decide on a model...


----------



## groverj3

I might be known as a Jackson guy around here, but I need to get a Carvin some day. They make some tasty looking stuff.


----------



## soliloquy

/\ i really wish carvin did necks like jacksons' compound radius necks and frets! or jackson did stainless steel frets, or non-metal looking guitars.

i really love both though


----------



## groverj3

soliloquy said:


> /\ i really wish carvin did necks like jacksons' compound radius necks and frets! or jackson did stainless steel frets, or non-metal looking guitars.
> 
> i really love both though



Always loved the looks of Carvin's guitars as well. I do like the compound radius and sharkfin inlays though 

Jackson will do stainless steel frets on their Custom Selects now though. It's a small upcharge but the pricetag for a Custom Select is higher than Carvin's stuff.


----------



## soliloquy

/\ thats exactly why i tend to stay away from jackson. i love them so much, but if i see them in a store, i force myself not to play one as i know i'll walk out of the store with one in hand, even though its not exactly what i was looking for, but close.


----------



## mbardu

Well if you want something with a Jackson kind of shape (king V, Kelly), Jackson is the closest in feel to Carvin. Since Carvin won't do those, and E don't have much alternatives now, do we  ? 

The non stainless steel frets on guitars of that caliber is indeed a bummer though.


----------



## Jack Secret

Jeff Kiesel posted this pic on his Facebook page. Goddamn gorgeous. Purple burst over aqua on flame maple. 






Down to about 3 weeks for my DC600 hardtail in black limba.


----------



## Enselmis

New Carvin 

That's an option 50 for the headstock, stainless steel extra jumbo frets, birds eye board and my own american wilkinson I shipped them to replace the junky chinese ones they use.


----------



## 12enoB

It has arrived!


----------



## Jack Secret

12enoB said:


> It has arrived!



Can't go wrong with some tasty burly maple.


----------



## Maddixxx

God, those Carvin natural finish are stunning! These will be on the wish list!


----------



## Jack Secret

It's flashback time again as I wait for my DC600 hardtail in black limba. Here's my first ever Carvin custom guitar. The TL60 with a spalted maple top.


----------



## soliloquy

Enselmis said:


> New Carvin
> 
> That's an option 50 for the headstock, stainless steel extra jumbo frets, birds eye board and my own american wilkinson I shipped them to replace the junky chinese ones they use.



i LOVE the abalone inlay next to the finish. really makes them pop out. 

i would get something VERY similar to your guitar if they ever release a 24 fret bolt guitar (preferably closer to the C66 though)


----------



## Jack Secret

Today's "look at the Carvin some lucky bastard got" pic.


----------



## Alberto7

That is Francesco's CT.

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/se...-carvin-ct74-blue-mist-w-flamed-koa-body.html

Stunning guitar.


----------



## got_tone

Yeah!
Francesco's is amazing!


----------



## imnotnollynollynolly

Learning that Carvin pickup routes apparently have changed to a more standard size now, I'm thinking a DC600 may be in my future. Out of curiosity though, do you guys know if it is possible to get the back in plain gloss? I've only ever seen them do bursts on the back which I really don't want. Pretty much everything else that I'd want is a standard option.


----------



## Alberto7

Yeah, they'll do it. Depending on the model, it will be an option 50 or not. I think it *will* be for a DC600. Also, I'm pretty sure they won't do it at all if the guitar has rounded sides.


----------



## imnotnollynollynolly

Alberto7 said:


> Yeah, they'll do it. Depending on the model, it will be an option 50 or not. I think it *will* be for a DC600. Also, I'm pretty sure they won't do it at all if the guitar has rounded sides.



Ah, ok thanks. I was thinking Aqua Burst top with binding and maybe do a black back or just plain black. Tung oiled neck, matching headstock. This may be oddly specific, but do you know if they finish the back of the headstock in the matching colour when you get a tung oiled neck? If not that would be perfect. My Music Man Y2D has pretty much the same colour scheme with a black back and I think it works well, but plain back may be even cooler with the neck through.


----------



## Alberto7

imnotnollynollynolly said:


> Ah, ok thanks. I was thinking Aqua Burst top with binding and maybe do a black back or just plain black. Tung oiled neck, matching headstock. This may be oddly specific, but do you know if they finish the back of the headstock in the matching colour when you get a tung oiled neck? If not that would be perfect. My Music Man Y2D has pretty much the same colour scheme with a black back and I think it works well, but plain back may be even cooler with the neck through.



Yeah, I think a colored top with a black back is standard option. I think the natural binding is an option 50, but I could be wrong about that. And no, they never paint the back of their headstocks, unless the neck is painted, too. It's finished on the same exact finish that the neck is.

EDIT: Oh, and just as something I noticed a while back: they finish the front of their headstocks in a matte finish even if you order a fully tunged body and neck. It's what they did on my DC727 with a full tung-oiled body. It'll be gloss if you order gloss, however.


----------



## imnotnollynollynolly

Alberto7 said:


> Yeah, I think a colored top with a black back is standard option. I think the natural binding is option 50, but I could be wrong about that. And no, they never paint the back of their headstocks, unless the neck is painted, too. It's finished on the same exact finish that the neck is.



Ahh right on. I checked before, both binding and black back are in the builder... Anyways, that would be cool. Direct mount pickups, minimal controls, standard route size, that's exactly what I would've wanted, Not to mention the body shape is pretty nice and super stratty on the DC600. That aqua mist CT looked killer though, very classy, makes me want a nice solid colour.


----------



## soliloquy

imnotnollynollynolly said:


> Learning that Carvin pickup routes apparently have changed to a more standard size now, I'm thinking a DC600 may be in my future. Out of curiosity though, do you guys know if it is possible to get the back in plain gloss? I've only ever seen them do bursts on the back which I really don't want. Pretty much everything else that I'd want is a standard option.



the DC600 is a metal looking/feeling/playing guitar and as such, metal heads, generally speaking, prefer putting black with everything. i dont get it...but yes, they will do natural backs as standard option if you want to, no upcharge. 




imnotnollynollynolly said:


> Ah, ok thanks. I was thinking Aqua Burst top with binding and maybe do a black back or just plain black. Tung oiled neck, matching headstock. This may be oddly specific, but do you know if they finish the back of the headstock in the matching colour when you get a tung oiled neck? If not that would be perfect. My Music Man Y2D has pretty much the same colour scheme with a black back and I think it works well, but plain back may be even cooler with the neck through.




they HARDLY ever match the front of the headstock to the back of the headstock unless specified and its an 'elite' upcharge. but generally speaking, whatever finish is on the back of the neck, you'll see on the back of the headstock. if you asked for tung oil, its all through out. same goes for plain gloss, black gloss, burst, or the front finish painted on the back too. they also do option 50's with back colors too. i've seen people request a red dye put on the back to make the mahogany stand out more, others have asked for white backs, or other colors. 

just give em a call and you'll get all your answers. or drop by the carvinbbs forum.


----------



## sylcfh

Ordering a Carvin neck for my partscaster soon enough. Can't wait for the weather to improve so I can finish the clearcoat on my body in the garage.


----------



## SnowfaLL

I picked up a used ST300C tonight, posted before on here I bet from Pat - but man am I pumped. If you dont know me, I placed an order for my own ST300T with loads of Opt 50s back in December, which will be ready within a month or two.

Here's Pat's pic.





I played it before at his house for 10 mins, but not enough to put it thru its paces, or run it through my AxeFX II. I absolutely love this thing now, I would rate it as the best Carvin I've ever played, and definitely top 5 in all-time guitars I've tried (Andersons, Bowes SLx7, Washburn Phenolic fretboard USA customshop) - This thing is just so slick and smooth, much different than the DC series which while feeling high quality, feels kinda odd to me. I don't like rosewood fretboards or floyds, but I can't deny how awesome this ST300 is.

It also was probably the best deal I've ever received on any piece of gear in my life. I won't mention it, it'd make you guys all jealous.

Can't wait even more for my ST300T now! My card date said April 17th, so I'm hoping to get it by May. If its similar at all to the ST300C, just with my exact specs, omg.

Why is there no such thing as a ST700??


----------



## pushpull7

Looks like a beauty to me


----------



## Jack Secret

Look at dat ass. I'm hoping my DC600 has an ass like that. The GRAIN!


----------



## 12enoB

NickCormier said:


> I picked up a used ST300C tonight, posted before on here I bet from Pat - but man am I pumped. If you dont know me, I placed an order for my own ST300T with loads of Opt 50s back in December, which will be ready within a month or two.
> 
> Here's Pat's pic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I played it before at his house for 10 mins, but not enough to put it thru its paces, or run it through my AxeFX II. I absolutely love this thing now, I would rate it as the best Carvin I've ever played, and definitely top 5 in all-time guitars I've tried (Andersons, Bowes SLx7, Washburn Phenolic fretboard USA customshop) - This thing is just so slick and smooth, much different than the DC series which while feeling high quality, feels kinda odd to me. I don't like rosewood fretboards or floyds, but I can't deny how awesome this ST300 is.
> 
> It also was probably the best deal I've ever received on any piece of gear in my life. I won't mention it, it'd make you guys all jealous.
> 
> Can't wait even more for my ST300T now! My card date said April 17th, so I'm hoping to get it by May. If its similar at all to the ST300C, just with my exact specs, omg.
> 
> Why is there no such thing as a ST700??


What a gorgeous guitar. That flame is awesome. 

Every time I pick up my new guitar, I thank my buddy who got me into Carvins. (Hairmacht if you guys are on the carvin forums)


----------



## Alberto7

So... uummm... I'm just going to leave this here while I scream into my pillow:














Froom Jeff's Facebook page:


> "Ok I had to post this DC800, 8 string Carvin Guitars ...
> This is a special Kiesel Edition option package. This has a 5 piece body, 5 piece neck, 5 piece headstock, stained flame maple fret board, walnut body and lots of flamed maple. It is finished off with a clear satin and black chrome hardware.
> And it's under 3 grand, made in America!
> 
> *We can do this on any of our models.* These special Kiesel Editions will be signed and only our highest figured woods will be used.



For the entire set of pictures (24 of them), go to Jeff's Facebook page and look through his photos:

https://www.facebook.com/OfficialJeffKiesel

I literally gasped when he posted the pictures of that guitar.

EDIT: Michael (Hebo), I'm sorry, but it seems your DC727 Elite has got competition now. 

EDIT 2: Now that I think about it... how is this different from the Elite package option? 
EDIT 3: I've read a bit through the comments on the FB album, and someone asked if the fretboard could be stained, to which Mr. Kiesel replied yes. This is getting exciting.
EDIT 4: And this is what I got when I asked what the difference was between the Elite and Kiesel options: "Elite is no longer offered and those were built similar without the use of our best of the best figured woods like these are." From the man himself.


----------



## imnotnollynollynolly

Alberto7 said:


> So... uummm... I'm just going to leave this here while I scream into my pillow:



I'm fairly confident at this point that my next guitar will be a Carvin. That is ridiculous.


----------



## Alberto7

If only I had the $3k Jeff was speaking of...  at least now I get to have fun thinking about which model I could do this to, whenever I get another Carvin. I've been thinking about an SCB6 like the white one with the natural walnut binding that was posted a few pages back, but now this... ok, fuck.


----------



## zilla

jesus.....

DO WANT.


----------



## J7string

Mother of god...


----------



## imnotnollynollynolly

Alberto7 said:


> If only I had the $3k Jeff was speaking of...  at least now I get to have fun thinking about which model I could do this to, whenever I get another Carvin. I've been thinking about an SCB6 like the white one with the natural walnut binding that was posted a few pages back, but now this... ok, fuck.



See, they do the whole figured top thing so well but at the same time I kind of want something nice and simple. I was thinking like a seafoam green DC 600 with gold hardware and Floyd, flame maple neck/maybe birdseye neck, try to go for something a bit unique. Too many options!


----------



## Alberto7

imnotnollynollynolly said:


> See, they do the whole figured top thing so well but at the same time I kind of want something nice and simple. I was thinking like a seafoam green DC 600 with gold hardware and Floyd, flame maple neck/maybe birdseye neck, try to go for something a bit unique. Too many options!



Yeah, I'm always torn between the minimalist and the lavish, too


----------



## imnotnollynollynolly

Alberto7 said:


> Yeah, I'm always torn between the minimalist and the lavish, too



Minimalist is easier on the wallet, haha.


----------



## jephjacques

Pretty sure this one is mine:







B)


----------



## Alberto7

^ I saw that one and instantly knew it had to belong to someone in this thread


----------



## Blitzie

So, I don't see these options on the website when you "build" your own. How do I select all these special features and stuff?


----------



## imnotnollynollynolly

Blitzie said:


> So, I don't see these options on the website when you "build" your own. How do I select all these special features and stuff?



It you click one of the models, on the right side there should be a dialogue box with a Guitar Builder option in green writing. If it's not there I would try a different browser.


----------



## Kleshas

Blitzie said:


> So, I don't see these options on the website when you "build" your own. How do I select all these special features and stuff?



Do you mean some of the crazier options in this thread? Some of those can only be done if you call or order in store.


----------



## Alberto7

Blitzie said:


> So, I don't see these options on the website when you "build" your own. How do I select all these special features and stuff?



This is one of the comments that was posted on the album that Jeff posted of that Kiesel DC800:



> _"Wow! That's simply beautiful! Awesome you're releasing it as a package. Is there going to be some info added to the builder for the "Kiesel Edition" upgrade?
> Like · Reply · 1 · 20 hours ago
> 
> Jeff Kiesel Yeah at some point we might. I feel with an order of this importance it should be done person to person over the phone."_



And that applies to regular option 50's, too, which include some of the crazier options you've in this thread and elsewhere.


----------



## Jack Secret

Time for this week's sexy pic.


----------



## Jack Secret

I should point out that pic was from the end of my guitar hoarding days muddled with cheap Ibanezes and random company guitars. Hell, you can see a flight case containing the Ibanez FRM-1 in the corner. I'm at 13 Carvins, I Caparison & an Ibafake 540PII that I put together with superior woods that are better than the cheap wood Ibanez was making guitars from. 

DC600 black korina....soon. Maybe 3 weeks. Soooooooooon!

Then...we start custom making Carvin semi hollow body guitars.


----------



## Alberto7

So, this is now a standard option!






Carvin DC700 with a Hipshot bridge (Jeff called it a DC700H)

People are asking and Carvin seems to be delivering very quickly these days.


----------



## Cloudy

Alberto7 said:


> So, this is now a standard option!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Carvin DC700 with a Hipshot bridge (Jeff called it a DC700H)
> 
> People are asking and Carvin seems to be delivering very quickly these days.



Im glad they've started offering more mainstream options that people enjoy, now all we need is an option to get regularly mounted pickups that aren't an opt 50 and we'll be golden


----------



## SnowfaLL

Direct-mounted pickups not being an opt 50 is coming.. when I placed my order in December, they said they had a code already for it (DMP or something similar) and it should be in the editor sometime soon. $50 upcharge still.


----------



## 0 Xero 0

I'm stoked about the hipshot becoming a standard option. I figured it was only a matter of time, but I'm certainly glad they did that. Here's some exciting news posted on FB last night...


----------



## shadscbr

I'd like to give a nice shout out to Carvin, here is my story. I had sold off my last 2 high quality trem guitars (Suhr & JP7) to fund a custom. Though I'm really not a heavy trem user, the need certainly arises, and I found myself empty handed. I also wanted something that I could take on vacation and jams/parties where I might not feel safe taking an expensive guitar. So I was on the lookout for something high in quality, but reasonable in price. Used Carvin to the rescue! 


I recently acquired this Carvin 727 as part of a trade, and I have to say, it is a great guitar. The stainless steel frets and satin neck really make it a joy to play. It has plenty of dings and some funky pickup routes which helped to keep the price in check. I feel like I can take it anywhere, and not be stuck with a crappy inferior guitar, and also not worry about its condition, a perfect match for my situation, here she is 







Shad


----------



## pushpull7

What is all this talk about "option 50"


----------



## SnowfaLL

chrisharbin said:


> What is all this talk about "option 50"



It's another word for any option that is not available on the website builder. You have to pay extra money for it and it makes your guitar non-returnable.


----------



## straightshreddd

Okay, so I'm excited, but still not ready to do an NGD yet(lost my phone, so no pics yet and I want to cop a gopro to shoot some vids), but I received my DC7X the other day and it is off the f*cking chain. I love it.

You guys are really going to love it, too.

I'll just leave you with this:

Very flamey flamed maple fretboard, abalone dots, black satin finish, and gold hardware.


----------



## TRENCHLORD

NickCormier said:


> It's another word for any option that is not available on the website builder. You have to pay extra money for it and it makes your guitar non-returnable.


 
And you'll have to pay 50% upfront instead of the normal 20% required to start the build. (hence the name "option 50")
The details of the option50 will dictate how much the upcharge is.

An option 50 does not make the guitar non-returnable.
It only voids returns that are based on "I don't like this guitar for whatever reason". It still will have the warranty against defects for 1year.


----------



## pushpull7

NickCormier said:


> It's another word for any option that is not available on the website builder. You have to pay extra money for it and it makes your guitar non-returnable.



Ah, thanks.


----------



## pushpull7

TRENCHLORD said:


> And you'll have to pay 50% upfront instead of the normal 20% required to start the build. (hence the name "option 50")
> The details of the option50 will dictate how much the upcharge is.
> 
> An option 50 does not make the guitar non-returnable.
> It only voids returns that are based on "I don't like this guitar for whatever reason". It still will have the warranty against defects for 1year.



More Ah. 

So looks like they are moving in the right direction for DM?


----------



## TRENCHLORD

chrisharbin said:


> More Ah.
> 
> So looks like they are moving in the right direction for DM?


 
dc600 is standard direct-mount, not sure with the 7's,8's.
I like the dc600 shape more if it has the top bindings, but not as much without them.
I like the standard fully-rounded dc, and the standard st300's which would be option50's for DM, but I'm lucky because I actually dig the rings on 6-strings. 
I hate the look of rings on 7's and 8's .


----------



## Matt_D_

So annoying that carvin's website always bounces to carvinworld if you're outside the US, even if you click the "US" thing. GRR.


----------



## Enselmis

TRENCHLORD said:


> And you'll have to pay 50% upfront instead of the normal 20% required to start the build. (hence the name "option 50")
> The details of the option50 will dictate how much the upcharge is.
> 
> An option 50 does not make the guitar non-returnable.
> It only voids returns that are based on "I don't like this guitar for whatever reason". It still will have the warranty against defects for 1year.



That's interesting you say that. I didn't pay the 50% up front when I got the holdsworth headstock option 50'd on my bolt plus.


----------



## mbardu

Enselmis said:


> That's interesting you say that. I didn't pay the 50% up front when I got the holdsworth headstock option 50'd on my bolt plus.



Didn't have to either on my previous order. 

I don't think that's a thing, and I don't know who came up with that 50% thing. Never experienced or heard it before..


----------



## SnowfaLL

mbardu said:


> Didn't have to either on my previous order.
> 
> I don't think that's a thing, and I don't know who came up with that 50% thing. Never experienced or heard it before..



Very possible/probable they use it to brand new customers who have never ordered anything before, just as an insurance policy. Or salesmen say it just to scare people out of ordering opt 50s (I believe Mike said something along those lines to me.. but I paid in full anyways due to the dropping CAD)


----------



## jephjacques

MINE'S ALMOST DONE


----------



## Garnoch

I saw that today - that was by far my favorite of the bunch - congrats, man!


----------



## imnotnollynollynolly

Does Carvin send update pics of their guitars during the build? That's really sweet!


----------



## Alberto7

They don't, but Manny (his name's Manny, right? I forget momentarily), the guy who runs Carvin's Facebook page, has taken the wonderful habit of doing daily runs through the shop, taking pictures of each guitar being built, and then puts them on Facebook. Practically every day. Which is awesome.


----------



## imnotnollynollynolly

Alberto7 said:


> They don't, but Manny (his name's Manny, right? I forget momentarily), the guy who runs Carvin's Facebook page, has taken the wonderful habit of doing daily runs through the shop, taking pictures of each guitar being built, and then puts them on Facebook. Practically every day. Which is awesome.



Right on, that's pretty sweet.


----------



## Cloudy

Alberto7 said:


> They don't, but Manny (his name's Manny, right? I forget momentarily), the guy who runs Carvin's Facebook page, has taken the wonderful habit of doing daily runs through the shop, taking pictures of each guitar being built, and then puts them on Facebook. Practically every day. Which is awesome.



Oh yeah, DEFINITELY not helping my Carvin GAS AT ALL. 

Damn you Manny (if thats his name?), damn you.

Sincerely,

A future customer who's bank account cant handle being a future customer.


----------



## Hollowway

jephjacques said:


> MINE'S ALMOST DONE



You're such a gear whore, and I love it! Couldn't resist the black limba huh?  I can't say I blame you - that's hot!


----------



## TRENCHLORD

mbardu said:


> Didn't have to either on my previous order.
> 
> I don't think that's a thing, and I don't know who came up with that 50% thing. Never experienced or heard it before..


 

Maybe it was because I was a first timer, but they did require me to pay 50% up front.
My order was a dc125c with volume-only placed over to the side where the coil-split usually is. That was the only thing "special" about it.

All that really means is that you get a 30% discount on your second payment .


----------



## Garnoch

I had to pay 50% for one of my Carvins because it had Option 50s in it.

And for those interested, the new "Kiesel Editions" need to be paid up front in full. And those will have constant updates with pictures throughout the build process. You'll deal directly with Jeff Kiesel on those.


----------



## Jack Secret

jephjacques said:


> MINE'S ALMOST DONE



So you're trying a Carvin and didn't say anything on twitter. Shame.


----------



## jephjacques

Expect plenty of hollering when it gets here!


----------



## shadowlife

Does anyone know if you can order a thicker neck profile than the ir standard one? I remember emailing them for the neck specs (i'm talking about 6 strings) and the specs they sent back were way too thin. Can you get a beefier neck as an option 50?


----------



## Garnoch

I guess it may depend on the model, but in addition to their regular neck, there is the thinner Becker profile and the thicker Holdsworth profile.


----------



## Jack Secret

jephjacques said:


> Expect plenty of hollering when it gets here!



They added more pics with the pups in on Facebook. Meanwhile, I can't ONE goddamn pic of my DC600 black limba there.


----------



## Alberto7

LOL Carvin's doing his NGD for him.  That's either really shitty, or really, really cool, depending on how you look at it.


----------



## tastehbacon

So are all Carvin models on par with the quality of the DC800?


----------



## Alberto7

Absolutely. They are all made in the same factory and handled by the same people using machinery that is very likely calibrated and maintained by the same staff. They all go under the eyes of the same QC people to pass inspection, too.


----------



## SnowfaLL

man its getting around that time when my ST300T should be hitting the facebook page.. makes me nervous everytime they upload pictures each day, I click there hoping that A) It's shown and B) all my specs are correct and my Opt 50 top/finish look great! - Such pressure.. Mike Jones said hes going to personally inspect it himself before they send it to me though, to make sure no specs were missed. I hope hes telling the truth.

My card date said April 16th.. any of you guys with pics on the facebook page, what card date did you have as opposed to the facebook pics?


----------



## mbardu

NickCormier said:


> man its getting around that time when my ST300T should be hitting the facebook page.. makes me nervous everytime they upload pictures each day, I click there hoping that A) It's shown and B) all my specs are correct and my Opt 50 top/finish look great! - Such pressure.. Mike Jones said hes going to personally inspect it himself before they send it to me though, to make sure no specs were missed. I hope hes telling the truth.
> 
> My card date said April 16th.. any of you guys with pics on the facebook page, what card date did you have as opposed to the facebook pics?



They usually try to avoid late production pics of guitars with custom finishes until after the guitar is delivered...

For my last one I was super pumped.... many pictures of the 'starburst' chevroned flame...



















But then they stopped showing the pictures when they started painting


----------



## mbardu

Garnoch said:


> I had to pay 50% for one of my Carvins because it had Option 50s in it.
> 
> And for those interested, the new "Kiesel Editions" need to be paid up front in full. And those will have constant updates with pictures throughout the build process. You'll deal directly with Jeff Kiesel on those.



I may stand corrected then!
I never had to pay 50% upfront, but apparently that's a thing. My bad!


----------



## Jack Secret

NickCormier said:


> man its getting around that time when my ST300T should be hitting the facebook page.. makes me nervous everytime they upload pictures each day, I click there hoping that A) It's shown and B) all my specs are correct and my Opt 50 top/finish look great! - Such pressure.. Mike Jones said hes going to personally inspect it himself before they send it to me though, to make sure no specs were missed. I hope hes telling the truth.
> 
> My card date said April 16th.. any of you guys with pics on the facebook page, what card date did you have as opposed to the facebook pics?



I'm 3/31 and I've never seen a one. I just want to see the grain on the wood. I already know it will play awesome. This one is simply a visual choice. After lucking out on great spalted maple, flame maple, quilted maple and flamed koa tops, I'm afraid my luck will run out.


----------



## jephjacques

Hahaha I love all the pics they're taking of mine!


----------



## Jack Secret

jephjacques said:


> Hahaha I love all the pics they're taking of mine!



Glad you took my advice and decided to try Carvin out. You were a bit apprehensive on the 2 month wait when I mentioned them to you. I'm GuitarAnthony on twitter.


----------



## Alberto7

I don't know how many of you know this, but Jeff Kiesel has already mentioned a few times on his Facebook account that he's working on more than one new seven-string model. He's not giving out many details (although he will supposedly post periodic photo updates on his Instagram account), but he did mention, however, that "they are both 25.5" scale and something new."

He posted this teaser pic, although I can't really see anything new here, other than routing for a Hipshot 7 Bridge (amirite?):






This guy is on fire with the whole ERG thing. And that's a good thing.


----------



## Jack Secret

Alberto7 said:


> I don't know how many of you know this, but Jeff Kiesel has already mentioned a few times on his Facebook account that he's working on more than one new seven-string model. He's not giving out many details (although he will supposedly post periodic photo updates on his Instagram account), but he did mention, however, that "they are both 25.5" scale and something new."
> 
> He posted this teaser pic, although I can't really see anything new here, other than routing for a Hipshot 7 Bridge (amirite?):
> 
> This guy is on fire with the whole ERG thing. And that's a good thing.



I'm surprised because he had said his dad told him no new models after the Xccelerator bass for a while.


----------



## Jack Secret

Sex pic time, I think...


----------



## Alberto7

You k ow, I've never really been into that shape, but the more I look at it, the more I like it. Besides, that golden koa ans gold hardware... sweeet mamajamma. 

Oh, and it seems there already was a thread on what I posted about Jeff designing more 7 string models before I actually made the post.


----------



## Jack Secret

Alberto7 said:


> You k ow, I've never really been into that shape, but the more I look at it, the more I like it. Besides, that golden koa ans gold hardware... sweeet mamajamma.



I'm probably the only person in the world that has a koa body/flamed koa top on a guitar. That's what's great about Carvin...you get an insane idea, there's a good chance they're gonna do it for you. Wasn't even a dreaded option 50.

I'm down to my postcard date for the DC600 black limba so now just waiting to be charged and getting it shipped out.


----------



## Alberto7

Haha yeah. I still haven't seen another one with specs similar to mine (swamp ash body, flamed koa top, koa/maple neck showing through the top, and a natural finish [tung oil in my case]), which makes me rather proud. And that's awesome, I've been looking forward to your orders! Do post them once you get them


----------



## pushpull7

It's not mine, but I think it's pretty easy on the eyes.....


----------



## Jack Secret

My new Carvin has gotten shipping confirmation. Hopefully here by Friday! You know what that means.....NGD pic thread!


----------



## jephjacques

My black limba DC800 is here.

Workmanship is fantastic. On par with my Mayones.

The pickups are among the worst I've ever tried. Thank god I have a set of proper ones coming in soon.

I'll do a proper NGD thread in a bit.


----------



## zilla

just acquired my first Carvin in a trade - a gorgeous CT74. Should be here next week. It's going to be a LONG week....


specs: alder body, maple top, tung oiled neck, birdseye maple fingerboard, stainless jumbo frets.

(pics are from the original owner)


















Duncan Pegasus and Sentient \m/


----------



## spn_phoenix_92

Maybe someone could help me out, I've been looking online all morning to try to find Carvin's virtual guitar builder to see what all they have, but I can't find it anywhere. I've searched all over the Carvin site & went through page after page on google. I'm just not sure why it's not showing up.


----------



## stevexc

What virtual guitar builder? AFAIK they only have the option forms for each model on their respective pages, not one overall builder. They don't have anything visual to say the least, and no plans for one.


----------



## zilla

go to the page of the model that you wish to build. There's a box on the right hand side under the price that says guitar builder in green


----------



## spn_phoenix_92

stevexc said:


> What virtual guitar builder? AFAIK they only have the option forms for each model on their respective pages, not one overall builder. They don't have anything visual to say the least, and no plans for one.


Oh well I read a thread this morning somewhere on here where a user told someone to use Carvin's virtual guitar builder cause they were wanting ideas for a custom.


----------



## spn_phoenix_92

Actually here's the post 



Les said:


> As stated before, Carvin is going to be your best bet, custom options for a damn good price. Play around on the guitar builder on their website and you'll be hooked.


----------



## Jack Secret

jephjacques said:


> My black limba DC800 is here.
> 
> Workmanship is fantastic. On par with my Mayones.
> 
> The pickups are among the worst I've ever tried. Thank god I have a set of proper ones coming in soon.
> 
> I'll do a proper NGD thread in a bit.



I KNOW you ain't hatin' on the Carvin house actives.


----------



## jephjacques

I am, they're absolutely awful.


----------



## Jack Secret

jephjacques said:


> I am, they're absolutely awful.



Ah well. I dig the A60 version of them on my DC600's.


----------



## SnowfaLL

spn_phoenix_92 said:


> Oh well I read a thread this morning somewhere on here where a user told someone to use Carvin's virtual guitar builder cause they were wanting ideas for a custom.



You probably mean on their website, you can see the pricing with options (picking from a list of specs) when you go into the page of each individual model and click the "Build/Order your guitar" button

as far as a virtual builder in terms of an image, theres the psp file on the carvinbbs for the DC600 (change fretboard/colors/etc) but you need knowledge of photoshop to use it.


----------



## jephjacques

NGD post here: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/ex...-limba-limba-limba-limba-limba-limbaaaaa.html


----------



## Jack Secret

My NGD is cancelled. Not happy with the result. Sorry guys.


----------



## speedyone

Sorry Jack that your NGD was a let down.

If you don't mind my asking, what model did you go for?

I sent in a Pic to Carvin for the kind of quilt top I wanted on my DC127, and they got it COMPLETELY wrong....not even close. They also gave me the wrong color hardware and no straplocks. My heart sank!

I kept it anyway though, as I didn't have a backup guitar, and didn't want to wait even LONGER to get a rebuild.

I've had two other great Carvins though.


----------



## Alberto7

Jack Secret said:


> My NGD is cancelled. Not happy with the result. Sorry guys.



Aw maing, that sucks. Do you mind elaborating on what was wrong with it?


----------



## Jack Secret

Alberto7 said:


> Aw maing, that sucks. Do you mind elaborating on what was wrong with it?



Sure. First thing. Plainest black limba you ever did see.









I almost mistook it for white limba but it's black, just zero characteristic streaks.

Second, wrong headstock. Asked for reverse inline, got 3x3 pointy.

Sad thing is...it f**king sounds and plays fantastic. I almost wanted to keep it but Mike Jones of Carvin called me after my post on the Carvin forums and said they want to make it right so I'm sending her back and I get a rebuild with his specific comments of what needs to be done and I'll get a new one in 4-5 weeks.

Will never say a bad thing about Carvin. Yes, I have to wait a few more weeks but like Mike said, in the long run I'll be happier for it.


----------



## Alberto7

The guys at Carvin do mess up on orders from time to time, but at least they know how to take care of their costumers. That black limba does, indeed, look quite underwhelming, and them getting the wrong headstock is quite shitty. But, like I said, it's a good thing that they're stepping up so quickly. Hopefully your next one will be flawless.  Keep us posted!


----------



## pushpull7




----------



## ilyti

Jack, I saw that and thought "finally someone ordered white limba!". I love the look of white limba and so far every limba Carvin has been black. I get that its not what you ordered and you're absolutely right to send it back, but just thought I'd let you know someone likes it. Maybe it'll end up in GIS.


----------



## LeffJoomis

Saving up for a JB200C. CANNOT WAIT to get my hands on that guitar!


----------



## imnotnollynollynolly

I'm definitely feeling like ordering a DC600 is my next move. The tough part will be trying to pick a unique finish. The pink and purple burst I've seen around here was fantastic, and kind of makes me want to do something like this with a quilt top:







Maybe a lighter pink like:


----------



## gui7ars

Love my ST300C. I've owned or own a lot of nice guitars (Ibanez, Ibanez Prestige, Suhr, Fender, Fender CS, Gibson, G&L, Schecter Custom Shop, Charvel, Heritage, EBMM, ESP USA CS) and this guitar is up there with them all. This was under $2K - a top and finish like this would set you back at least 50% more with most other manufactures. Just orders my second ST300C recently - plain top and solid color for right at $1400.


----------



## gui7ars

Need to add how versatile this thing is - coil taps and Graphtech piezo bridge makes this thing awesome to gig with...


----------



## mbardu

gui7ars said:


> Love my ST300C. I've owned or own a lot of nice guitars (Ibanez, Ibanez Prestige, Suhr, Fender, Fender CS, Gibson, G&L, Schecter Custom Shop, Charvel, Heritage, EBMM, ESP USA CS) and this guitar is up there with them all. This was under $2K - a top and finish like this would set you back at least 50% more with most other manufactures. Just orders my second ST300C recently - plain top and solid color for right at $1400.



Hey there!

That ST looks awesome!

It's rare to see a Carvin with the licensed Piezo Floyd!

How well does it stay in tune vs an original FR?
Does it hold well over time?

Thanks!


----------



## mbardu

imnotnollynollynolly said:


> I'm definitely feeling like ordering a DC600 is my next move. The tough part will be trying to pick a unique finish. The pink and purple burst I've seen around here was fantastic, and kind of makes me want to do something like this with a quilt top:



I'm the first owner of that color (I worked with Carvin based on an image I sen them).

There have been a few people asking Carvin for the same finish on quilt afterwards...











I personally think it looks better on flame...

But maybe that's just me:







PS: DC600s are awesome...go for it!


----------



## imnotnollynollynolly

Right on. I like flame tops but already have a Music Man with a very nice flame. I like them about equally so figured I'd give quilt a shot, at least as of right now. I might be interested in a solid colour as well and save a few bucks haha, that's where I think a light pink would be cool.

Also, is the first one you posted with the pink to purple a DC600? Hard to tell from that angle for me.


----------



## mbardu

imnotnollynollynolly said:


> Right on. I like flame tops but already have a Music Man with a very nice flame. I like them about equally so figured I'd give quilt a shot, at least as of right now. I might be interested in a solid colour as well and save a few bucks haha, that's where I think a light pink would be cool.
> 
> Also, is the first one you posted with the pink to purple a DC600? Hard to tell from that angle for me.



Yeah, that looks like a DC600 to me too...

If you're looking for something just a tiny bit cheaper (they did just increase the price of quilt), Carvin has just released 'translucent pearl pink) as a standard color for non figured woods:






There are very few out in the wild though, so difficult to know what it looks like.

If it turns out to be a nice pink, I'm thinking it would do very well as the paint for a classic DC600 with no top and 5 piece neck.

Something like my green machine...but in Pink


----------



## soliloquy

humm....now i'm debating finishes and tonewoods on an SH575....

spec 1:
hog body
flamed maple top
brown burst (caramel burst. the brown outer edges of honey burst, minus the yellow part)
natural binding 
black trim
ebony board no inlay
ebony or rosewood headstock
chrome hardware
matte finish 
rosewood nobs
ivory graphtech nut

OR

spec 2:
hog body
plain walnut top (cant stand crazy and unpredictable figures on walnut! but if it looks like darker zebra wood )
brown burst (same as top) or soft sunset burst
natural binding
matte finish 
ebony board no inlay
ebony or rosewood (or maybe walnut headstock...same price for all....)
black trim
gold hardware
rosewood knobs
graphtech ivory nut


----------



## zilla

just joined the club 

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/sevenstring-guitars/267572-n-me-gd-carvin-content.html


----------



## Hexatticus

These guitars are not of this world. I can't believe these axes are had for the price of admission.


----------



## gui7ars

The Graphtech Floyd is very solid - stays in tune as equally well as my Gotoh-equipped Suhr Classic and other Floyd-equipped guitars I have. Plus the added piezo versatility is awesome to have...


----------



## gui7ars

Insanely beautiful guitar - almost wish this was a standard option more than the new "Nightburst".


----------



## posmaster

gui7ars said:


> Insanely beautiful guitar - almost wish this was a standard option more than the new "Nightburst".



Sweet.

Fancy.

Moses.


----------



## Convictional

I noticed that Carvin offers a hipshot option on the DC700/DC7x and DC800 series but not on any of their 6 string models.

Has anyone talked to their customer service reps/heard anything on the carvin bbs about this?


----------



## mbardu

posmaster said:


> Sweet.
> 
> Fancy.
> 
> Moses.



Yeah...she turned out OK


----------



## spn_phoenix_92

I've been really considering ordering a Carvin soon, but I'd like to see some good pics of a Carvin topped with Koa & cherry bursted edges, google search isn't doing it for me. The specs I'm thinking of ordering are:

Body:Swamp Ash
Top:Koa or Flamed Koa
Finish:Satin w/ cherry burst edged top
Neck:5 piece walnut with maple stripes
Fretboard:Birds eye maple
Inlays:none
Frets:24 medium jumbo
Radius:14"
Headstock:Holdsworth 2x4
Headstock finish: Matches body
Bridge:Standard Hardtail
Bridge Pickup:M22SD
Neck Pickup:M22V
Hardware:Black

all this awesomeness for only $1,568

I'd love to order soon, but I'd love to see Koa or Flamed Koa with a cherry burst edge.


----------



## Mike

Anyone have a nightburst finish planned? I think it's a pretty unique offering.


----------



## Alberto7

spn_phoenix_92 said:


> ...I'd love to see Koa or Flamed Koa with a cherry burst edge.



Man, that exact same guitar was owned by user thrsher a while back. I found the NGD thread, but the pictures are gone 

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/sevenstring-guitars/120114-ngd-carvin-dc727.html

Shoot him a message to see if he can send you pics.

If you want my personal opinion, I don't like koa with any kind of stain on it. Perhaps a very thin blackburst, but that's it. I like to show off the natural grain and color, and koa usually has a lot going on. The cherry burst on the flamed koa wasn't for me.


----------



## Garnoch

spn_phoenix_92 said:


> I'd love to order soon, but I'd love to see Koa or Flamed Koa with a cherry burst edge.



Sounds great, man. Good luck! I had a hard time finding many bursts on koa too so I'll link mine even though it's Sunsetburst and not cherry in case it helps, specifically because it looks more red when outside.....

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/st...0-koa-wings-flamed-koa-flamed-maple-neck.html


----------



## Alberto7

^ That I dig more


----------



## spn_phoenix_92

Garnoch said:


> Sounds great, man. Good luck! I had a hard time finding many bursts on koa too so I'll link mine even though it's Sunsetburst and not cherry in case it helps, specifically because it looks more red when outside.....
> 
> http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/st...0-koa-wings-flamed-koa-flamed-maple-neck.html


I like it, I'll have to compare it when I find some of the cherry pics & see which I like better


----------



## imnotnollynollynolly

Mike said:


> Anyone have a nightburst finish planned? I think it's a pretty unique offering.



Looks sweet.


----------



## Jack Secret

This week's GuitarAnthony/Jack Secret sexy Carvin guitar photo time. Little swamp ash for y'all.


----------



## spn_phoenix_92

Garnoch said:


> Sounds great, man. Good luck! I had a hard time finding many bursts on koa too so I'll link mine even though it's Sunsetburst and not cherry in case it helps, specifically because it looks more red when outside.....
> 
> http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/st...0-koa-wings-flamed-koa-flamed-maple-neck.html


I've got to see both, & I really can't make up my mind as to which one I prefer more. How does it look indoors, are the bursted edges red then or only in the sunlight?

EDIT: I just noticed the indoor pics, it looks a little brown in the pics, how does it look in person?


----------



## Garnoch

spn_phoenix_92 said:


> I've got to see both, & I really can't make up my mind as to which one I prefer more. How does it look indoors, are the bursted edges red then or only in the sunlight?
> 
> EDIT: I just noticed the indoor pics, it looks a little brown in the pics, how does it look in person?



Unfortunately all the indoor pics are phone pics, but depending on the light, all the pics look correct so are relevant. Since I never have it outdoors though, the very first picture I think gives the best vibe as to how I think it looks. You don't notice much red indoors. I prefer how it looks indoors actually, but that's just my taste.


----------



## J7string

I'll be getting my first CT-7 tomorrow. Man am I excited. xD


----------



## spn_phoenix_92

Garnoch said:


> When unfortunately all the indoor pics are phone pics, but depending on the light, all the pics look correct so are relevant. Since I never have it outdoors though, the very first picture I think gives the best vibe as to how I think it looks. You don't notice much red indoors. I prefer how it looks indoors actually, but that's just my taste.


The cherry bursted one I seen looked a little too vibrant red, so I'll probably be ordering one in sunset burst, whenever my wallet will allow it


----------



## soliloquy

spn_phoenix_92 said:


> I've been really considering ordering a Carvin soon, but I'd like to see some good pics of a Carvin topped with Koa & cherry bursted edges, google search isn't doing it for me. The specs I'm thinking of ordering are:
> 
> Body:Swamp Ash
> Top:Koa or Flamed Koa
> Finish:Satin w/ cherry burst edged top
> Neck:5 piece walnut with maple stripes
> Fretboard:Birds eye maple
> Inlays:none
> Frets:24 medium jumbo
> Radius:14"
> Headstock:Holdsworth 2x4
> Headstock finish: Matches body
> Bridge:Standard Hardtail
> Bridge Pickup:M22SD
> Neck Pickup:M22V
> Hardware:Black
> 
> all this awesomeness for only $1,568
> 
> I'd love to order soon, but I'd love to see Koa or Flamed Koa with a cherry burst edge.



heres koa. i have no idea how koa turned out as beautiful as it did in this guitar....but hey








































its sunset burst. i'd personally go with sunset as its more subtle and enhances the beauty rather than distracts from it


----------



## J7string

I got my CT-7 earlier today! Man... there's just no words!


----------



## zilla

That neck.....


----------



## spn_phoenix_92

soliloquy said:


> heres koa. i have no idea how koa turned out as beautiful as it did in this guitar....but hey
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> its sunset burst. i'd personally go with sunset as its more subtle and enhances the beauty rather than distracts from it


Ok, you've convinced me to go sunset burst & to pay the extra for flamed koa, that thing is sexy


----------



## Alberto7

^ Mind you that I've only ever seen koa like that (on pictures online, of course) on a couple of guitars. The figuring of koa is usually much tighter than that. I also agree on going sunset burst over cherry burst. Looking forward to seeing it!


----------



## Splenetic

Forgot to put the truss rod cover back on so....


----------



## soliloquy

Alberto7 said:


> ^ Mind you that I've only ever seen koa like that (on pictures online, of course) on a couple of guitars. The figuring of koa is usually much tighter than that. I also agree on going sunset burst over cherry burst. Looking forward to seeing it!





i second this. koa can vary drastically. from tight grain that mimics walnut or flamed maple. or it can be very lose (VERY RARE) like the picture above that makes it look like red wood. or it can be plain and in which case, it can look like plain mahogany, walnut or painted plain maple.


----------



## spn_phoenix_92

soliloquy said:


> i second this. koa can vary drastically. from tight grain that mimics walnut or flamed maple. or it can be very lose (VERY RARE) like the picture above that makes it look like red wood. or it can be plain and in which case, it can look like plain mahogany, walnut or painted plain maple.


I may just go with regular Koa then, I'll have to see what my mind finally sets on. Both are beautiful woods though, I just don't wanna spend an extra $200 on something that I don't know what I'd be getting. I'm thinking of using their credit program, anyone have any experience with it?


----------



## Garnoch

spn_phoenix_92 said:


> The cherry bursted one I seen looked a little too vibrant red, so I'll probably be ordering one in sunset burst, whenever my wallet will allow it



Here's a pic Carvin posted today of a glossy flamed koa burst.....


----------



## soliloquy

spn_phoenix_92 said:


> I may just go with regular Koa then, I'll have to see what my mind finally sets on. Both are beautiful woods though, I just don't wanna spend an extra $200 on something that I don't know what I'd be getting. I'm thinking of using their credit program, anyone have any experience with it?



thats why i want to stay away from walnut. i've counted 4 different patterns on what is considered 'claro walnut' that is not to my liking. its a huge gamble that we are to pay and i prefer consistence rather than ad-hoc when i buy a guitar that is potentially non-refundable (based on what specs one might order)


----------



## PERP

Mine should be shipped by the end of the week. Here's an up to date picture, as of Friday the 18th.


----------



## Jack Secret

I dunno. I'm thinking of selling off my Caparison TAT special amber and Ibafake 540PII and getting more Carvins. Also may try to sell the Carvin TL60 spalted top just because it's not getting much play. I simply love the DC600 and thinking of a hardtail in all koa like the one being rebuilt black limba one and another HH2 headless but with a 14" radius board instead of another in 20" like my seafoam green one. 

I'll probably have to try and sell them on guitar forums because I'm not dealing with morons on ebay ever again nor the morons who run ebay ever again short of having to use Paypal to receive payments. Much to think about.


----------



## pushpull7

I've only sold one set of pickups here. I'm guessing it's a pretty good place to sell w/o too much BS. I have a lot of experience selling software (and some hardware) over at KVR, but not guitars here. I have one I might put up for sale.


----------



## spn_phoenix_92

Garnoch said:


> Here's a pic Carvin posted today of a glossy flamed koa burst.....


Is that sunset burst?  Dang I also can't decide between that model or the DC600. I like the rounded edges of that one but the direct mounted humbuckers of the DC600. Also still can't decide between flame or no flame koa, but I've got plenty of time as I save up the money.


----------



## Jack Secret

How about some purple n gold?


----------



## Alberto7

How about that's a f*cking beautiful DC600?


----------



## Jack Secret

Alberto7 said:


> How about that's a f*cking beautiful DC600?



Much appreciated. 

I should make mention to the perusers who have yet to order a Carvin, though the online order builder is quite nice, calling up and letting them know exactly what you want when you order is best. I was worried the purple might mute the flame too much so I called up and voiced my concerns. I called up and spoke to Bart (who sadly no longer works at Carvin) and he said not to worry and he'll make a note on the order. He did, they made it perfect and rest is history.

They have many fine salespeople at carvin and I've not had a problem with any of them. When I ranted like a fool on the Carvin forums concerning the uncharacteristically plain black limba and wrong headstock DC600 that had arrived, Mike Jones from Carvin called me...I repeat...called me within minutes of my post before I could call them and says let's rebuild it so you're happy. Now, I could have done that anyway within 10 business days but because they did the wrong headstock, I didn't have to pay the shipping and rebuilds that are necessary through their fault gets automatic rush mode (build in 4-5 weeks which usually cost an extra $100). 

Hell, that I almost wanted to keep the DC600 because she played and sounded so beautiful says something about Carvin's workmanship. I've been made aware that the rebuild will likely blow my mind. I await the boom.

Here's a booty shot for you ass men out there. This DC600 was swamp ash w/ flame maple top. GREAT sounding combo. I was pleasantly surprised because you never hear anyone doing a swamp ash/maple top combo.


----------



## HighGain510

Jack Secret said:


> Here's a booty shot for you ass men out there. This DC600 was swamp ash w/ flame maple top. GREAT sounding combo. I was pleasantly surprised *because you never hear anyone doing a swamp ash/maple top combo.*



Well I don't know that I'd say that....

(mine)












(hope rifftrauma doesn't mind me using his pics too! )












It's a well-known tasty tone combo, actually!  Right up there with basswood + maple top, it's just not as common among the "standards" I guess, but definitely used by builders big and small and noted as sounding great!  I definitely agree with the point about the sound though, my Suhr with that combo sounds fantastic for just about anything, so I'd imagine that Carvin probably sounds quite badass as well!


----------



## Garnoch

spn_phoenix_92 said:


> Is that sunset burst?  Dang I also can't decide between that model or the DC600. I like the rounded edges of that one but the direct mounted humbuckers of the DC600. Also still can't decide between flame or no flame koa, but I've got plenty of time as I save up the money.



If I remember, it was sunset in gloss with flame of course, as opposed to my satin sunset with no flame. There is a good chance when you call to to order that you can get that model with direct mounts, I had gotten the okay to do it on another model before choosing the 600 instead and a few weeks ago I ordered a Kiesel Edition with direct mounts for a different model.


----------



## Fathand

My Carvin HH1 GAS isn't going away, so to dampen it down I just put a price inquiry in to the Finnish dealer for a basic White/white HH1 with stainless steel frets. So nothing fancy, just standard specs besides the SS frets + maple neck with walnut stripes). I'm curious to see what they quote on that.

If someone from the states could use the builder and give me a reference for what they go for in the states, I'd be grateful. Won't have any effect on the local pricing, but gives some reference to what the difference is. Specs:
- HH1 / no trem
- Alder/Maple
- Maple neck with walnut stripes
- White/White color
- Stainless steel frets (jumbo)
- otherwise standard specs
- tolex hardcase


----------



## pushpull7

Ran into a snag, no alder body that I can see choices:


-MA - Maple Neck/Alder Body (Standard)$0.00$0.00

ASH - Maple Neck/Swamp Ash BodySwamp ash delivers slightly less midrange with full low-end and nice singing highs. It is light in color with rich grain patterns .and looks great with translucent finishes. Because of it's tonal characteristics, this wood is especially suitable for bass guitars.$80.00$40.00

ASH1 - 1-Piece Swamp Ash Body/Maple NeckSwamp ash delivers slightly less midrange with full low-end and nice singing highs. It is light in color with rich grain patterns .and looks great with translucent finishes. Because of it's tonal characteristics, this wood is especially suitable for bass guitars. This is a 1-piece body with no center seam.$120.00$60.00

KOA - Maple Neck/Koa BodyHawaiian Koa has warmth and sustain similar to Mahogany and also possesses the clear open tone of Alder. Koa looks wonderful whether you choose a tung oiled, satin or gloss finish.$400.00$200.00

LMB - Maple Neck/Black Limba BodyBlack limba, also known as korina, is tonally similar to mahogany, but a little brighter with more clarity and more midrange emphasis. Suitable for solidbody and acoustic-electric instruments.$200.00$100.00

LMW - Maple Neck/White Limba BodyWhite limba, also known as korina, is tonally similar to mahogany, but a little brighter with more clarity and more midrange emphasis and lighter in color. Suitable for solidbody and acoustic-electric instruments.$200.00$100.00

MAH - Maple Neck/Mahogany BodyMahogany has an inherent warm quality with accentuated low-midrange, and is considered to be a classic tone wood. It is denser and heavier than Alder, but lighter than Maple. Mahogany is reddish brown in color, and provides great sustain and warmth.$100.00$50.00

NKOA - Koa Neck & BodyHawaiian Koa has warmth and sustain similar to Mahogany and also possesses the clear open tone of Alder. Koa looks wonderful whether you choose a tung oiled, satin or gloss finish.$800.00$400.00

NLMB - Black Limba Neck & BodyBlack limba, also known as korina, is tonally similar to mahogany, but a little brighter with more clarity and more midrange emphasis. Suitable for solidbody and acoustic-electric instruments.$400.00$200.00

NLMW - White Limba Neck & BodyWhite limba, also known as korina, is tonally similar to mahogany, but a little brighter with more clarity and more midrange emphasis and lighter in color. Suitable for solidbody and acoustic-electric instruments.$400.00$200.00

NMAH - Mahogany Neck & BodyMahogany has an inherent warm quality with accentuated low-midrange, and is considered to be a classic tone wood. It is denser and heavier than Alder, but lighter than Maple. Mahogany is reddish brown in color, and provides great sustain and warmth.$200.00$100.00

NWAL - Walnut Neck & BodyEastern Black Walnut is a dense medium hard wood that is slightly heavier than Mahogany. Its tonal quality is warm with a growling low end and a bright top end. Walnut has medium dark beautiful grain patterns and looks great with gloss or satin finishes.$200.00$100.00

TC - Maple Neck & BodyEastern hard rock maple is known for its proven strength and stability. As a body wood, hard rock maple is heavy and dense, and delivers a bright sustaining tone. Maple has a wonderful light grain that looks great with translucent finishes.$100.00$50.00

WAL - Maple Neck & Walnut BodyEastern Black Walnut is a dense medium hard wood that is slightly heavier than Mahogany. Its tonal quality is warm with a growling low end and a bright top end. Walnut has medium dark beautiful grain patterns and looks great with gloss or satin finishes.


----------



## Fathand

chrisharbin said:


> Ran into a snag, no alder body that I can see choices:
> 
> 
> *-MA - Maple Neck/Alder Body (Standard)$0.00$0.00*



It was this, just the standard combo. Should have been more specific, sorry about that.


----------



## Jack Secret

Yeah, maple neck/alder body is the default option. Have a DC600 in that because I wanted a solid color (hate covering up the grain on woods) and it sounds fantastic. Well, all my Carvins do honestly. Have never gotten a dud. Gotten ones I didn't have a feel & sent back for rebuilds but still sounded great.


----------



## pushpull7

Fathand said:


> It was this, just the standard combo. Should have been more specific, sorry about that.



Ok, I'll go back to building.


----------



## pushpull7

Fathand said:


> My Carvin HH1 GAS isn't going away, so to dampen it down I just put a price inquiry in to the Finnish dealer for a basic White/white HH1 with stainless steel frets. So nothing fancy, just standard specs besides the SS frets + maple neck with walnut stripes). I'm curious to see what they quote on that.
> 
> If someone from the states could use the builder and give me a reference for what they go for in the states, I'd be grateful. Won't have any effect on the local pricing, but gives some reference to what the difference is. Specs:
> - HH1 / no trem
> - Alder/Maple
> - Maple neck with walnut stripes
> - White/White color
> - Stainless steel frets (jumbo)
> - otherwise standard specs
> - tolex hardcase



Ok, how bad I mess up?


----------



## Overtone

I guess the only question is if he wants the satin finish on the neck or something else, unless that's standard w/ the 5 piece neck.


----------



## pushpull7

I just filled in the "standard." tung oiled I think is an optional 60 bucks.


----------



## Fathand

Thanks, I appreciate that.

The difference in price (even after calculating customs, taxes etc. into it) was about what I was expecting, but I won't go more into that because this pricing issue is a horse that's been beaten too much already. 

I'll just say that at this point I'll have to do some more saving or go through the "used" rout. 

But keep them pictures about H/HH coming, people. Maybe it's just that my GAS need more fuel?


----------



## pushpull7

Glad I could help.


----------



## Speculum Speculorum

You know - I almost pulled the trigger on a Carvin CS624... but there's one thing about Carvin that always gets me... they have all these nice things and then there's just a touch here or there that's just "off". Consider, the headstock for the CS624 - not horrible... but just... not quite right. And then I did this horrible photo-chop... BAM! Instant gas! Why wouldn't they consider this design?


----------



## TRENCHLORD

^^^^ Totally agree, except that I actually prefer that reversed (in carvin speak) instead of standard like above, most of the time anyways, especially when the body shape is upper-dominant like on LP-ish guitars.

Great headstock IMO, even though it's super-basic.


----------



## Speculum Speculorum

Totally get what you are saying about the "reversed" headstock. This was just the quickest blue pointy one I could find. However, I kind of think maybe the reversed headstock makes the guitar look a little unbalanced. I mean - it's a much crappier looking render, but you get the... point...


----------



## soliloquy

not sure if you're aware of this, but carvin closed one of its retail stores, and is now selling its store models for a discounted price. many of them having stainless steel frets too:






for $1639
source: Carvin.com : In Stock ST300M 2 Pickup Classic Guitar Serial Number 111449





for $989
source: Carvin.com : In Stock CT74M 7-String California Carved Top Serial Number 110931





for: $1409
source: Carvin.com : In Stock CT7M 7-String California Carved Top Serial Number 110937





For: $769
source: Carvin.com : In Stock DC600C 2 Pickup Guitar with Floyd Rose Tremolo Serial Number 113054





for: $639
source: Carvin.com : In Stock DC700M Seven-String Guitar Serial Number 112143





for: 1219
source: Carvin.com : In Stock DC400M Active 2 Pickup Guitar Serial Number 71292

they got tons of others:
Carvin.com : In Stock DC727C Seven-String Guitar with Floyd Rose Tremolo Serial Number 106808
Carvin.com : In Stock JB200C Jason Becker Guitar with Floyd Rose Tremolo Serial Number 120662
Carvin.com : In Stock ST300T 2 Pickup Classic Guitar w/ Wilkinson Tremolo Serial Number 96822


----------



## ChrisH

Some of those bad boys were from my store. I'm gonna miss them T^T


----------



## zilla

soliloquy said:


> http://www.carvinguitars.com/guitars-in-stock/112143



that fingerboard.


----------



## Fathand

Fathand said:


> Thanks, I appreciate that.
> 
> The difference in price (even after calculating customs, taxes etc. into it) was about what I was expecting, but I won't go more into that because this pricing issue is a horse that's been beaten too much already.
> 
> I'll just say that at this point I'll have to do some more saving or go through the "used" rout.
> 
> But keep them pictures about H/HH coming, people. Maybe it's just that my GAS need more fuel?



Quoting myself, but looks like I'm taking the plunge after all.. I'm mailing back and forth with the local dealer about the specs. But what's the standard neck profile for the HH1? Is it the rapid play (what's that?) or something thicker. Thicker/beefier is better, I really don't dig skinny necks.. 

Otherwise I'm pretty much going with the standard features (alder/maple/ebony), still debating with myself whether to go natural or take some outrageous color.. But I found a glitch on the Carvinworld.com HH1 pages - they say the HH1 has a birch top, but the dealer claims the basic top to be alder.. I mentioned the wrong info in the pages to him and said also to forward it to Carvin (and try to negotiate a free birch top for me..).


----------



## ferret

Your dealer is probably wrong or maybe misunderstood and thought that you wanted a birch body... The HH1 comes stock with an alder body with birch top. The US site lists that as well, both on the product page and within the builder itself.

Maybe ChrisH will chime in though.


----------



## Fathand

ferret said:


> Your dealer is probably wrong or maybe misunderstood and thought that you wanted a birch body... The HH1 comes stock with an alder body with birch top. The US site lists that as well, both on the product page and within the builder itself.
> 
> Maybe ChrisH will chime in though.



Unbelievable. I went back to the builder (which is working a bit wonky right now, e.g it chooses the trem automatically), and compared it to the one chrisharbin made for me in the U.S builder - they're different! The builder doesn't give me the birch top as standard, and actually doesn't give me the birch top as an option at all. Hopefully a bug, but I'll see what the dealer replies. 

Even though the optimist in me wants to believe it's a bug, nothing more and this will be sorted.. the pessimist in me is already thinking: "Carvin, really?". And from a professional point of view (I work in customer process development): This kind of guessing and conflicting information isn't really the thing I should be pondering about (especially at this price, which is close to 2k) - I'm supposed to be comparing colors, dammit!


----------



## pushpull7

I'm not following, what can I help with?


----------



## Fathand

chrisharbin said:


> I'm not following, what can I help with?



Maybe just confirm that the HH1 comes with a birch top as standard, but I found the answer from your build picture in the previous page already.. looks like the specs are different for the U.S and for the rest of us. A bug or something else - I hope the local dealer can answer that. But that will have to wait until monday.

EDIT: And now when I'm thinking about this - the more it's starting to bother me. Just sent the dealer an email in which I asked a definite clarification for this. :/


----------



## ferret

chrisharbin said:


> I'm not following, what can I help with?



Heh, sorry for confusion. I meant the user ChrisH aka Chris Hong, the Carvin sales rep.


----------



## ceiling_fan

Awesome (except for the meme text...)


----------



## pushpull7

ferret said:


> Heh, sorry for confusion. I meant the user ChrisH aka Chris Hong, the Carvin sales rep.



AH! Ok, got it now

@Fathand: That is what it says. White birch top.


----------



## ChrisH

Fathand, I sent you a PM. Hope that helps!


----------



## Jack Secret

My rebuild DC600 black limba will be here Wednesday. There will be panic and chaos in the streets (if I miss the UPS truck)! 

Mike Jones of Carvin decided to taunt me with this photo. His evil is truly endless.


----------



## Skullet

I love it!!!!


----------



## Alberto7

Jack Secret said:


> My rebuild DC600 black limba will be here Wednesday. There will be panic and chaos in the streets (if I miss the UPS truck)!
> 
> Mike Jones of Carvin decided to taunt me with this photo. His evil is truly endless.



Haha! Spectacularly trolled.


----------



## Jack Secret

It's delivery day! EVERYBODY LIMBA! da-da-da-da-da-HEY! da-da-da-da-da-HEY!

Stay tuned. NGD thread after I get baby in or after I find the UPS guy and kick him in the shins for knocking on my door and running away before I can answer like the last time.


----------



## kevdes93

ceiling_fan said:


> Awesome (except for the meme text...)



I WANT IT


----------



## pushpull7

They still have this:

Carvin.com : In Stock BOLTPLUS-C Bolt On Neck Guitar with Floyd Rose Tremolo Serial Number 110192

I still want it, and I can't justify the coin right now


----------



## TheDraeg

Someone tell me about a DC600. With the passive pickups can one of these pull off metal and rock alllll the way down to some convincing blues tones?? I'm considering selling three guitars (including my one strat) to finance a custom shop..


----------



## Hollowway

^Yes, but there are a few pickups types you can choose from. Like any other guitar, that's a huge range to expect a pickup to execute perfectly on. But if you got some coil splits, etc, I don't see why you couldn't go the metal pup route and then split it or taper back for the bluesier stuff. And remember - you have a return period you can test if out for.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Hollowway said:


> ^Yes, but there are a few pickups types you can choose from. Like any other guitar, that's a huge range to expect a pickup to execute perfectly on. But if you got some coil splits, etc, I don't see why you couldn't go the metal pup route and then split it or taper back for the bluesier stuff. And remember - you have a return period you can test if out for.



I'm going to order one very soon if I can get the cash for it, Thinking of doing a dark back/light front contrast.

Want to go with Black Limba wings, Walnut/Maple 5 Pc Neck, and then a Surf Green Top, Flame Maple Fingerboard and Natural Flame Headstock.


----------



## electriceye

delete


----------



## amogtr

TheDraeg said:


> Someone tell me about a DC600. With the passive pickups can one of these pull off metal and rock alllll the way down to some convincing blues tones?? I'm considering selling three guitars (including my one strat) to finance a custom shop..



I have a DC600 with the C22 passives. I primarily play metal and they can definitely do it. Extremely versatile pickups that I had planned to swap immediately before I played them.


----------



## ferret

TheDraeg said:


> Someone tell me about a DC600. With the passive pickups can one of these pull off metal and rock alllll the way down to some convincing blues tones?? I'm considering selling three guitars (including my one strat) to finance a custom shop..



And if you want more output than the C22s, put an M22SD and M22N in there.

Carvin has a nice chart here:

Carvin.com : USA Custom Shop Pickup Comparison Guide


----------



## minorseventh

I wish I had a photo to contribute to this thread, but my Carvin wont be finished for another 6 weeks. I am having a DC600 built.... walnut body, spalted maple top, limba neck, and a hipshot fixed bridge. thats right. a hipshot. 
this 10 week wait is killing me.


----------



## pushpull7

I don't remember how long I waited for mine. It was less than that, and less than the estimated time. Mine is nowhere near as exotic as that.

Would love one with a hipshot bridge


----------



## ChrisH

minorseventh said:


> I wish I had a photo to contribute to this thread, but my Carvin wont be finished for another 6 weeks. I am having a DC600 built.... walnut body, spalted maple top, limba neck, and a hipshot fixed bridge. thats right. a hipshot.
> this 10 week wait is killing me.



I can't wait until yours is completed. It is going to look sick!


----------



## Toejam

!


----------



## 0 Xero 0

New carvin 7-string tele!
7-string Tele TL70


----------



## AndruwX

0 Xero 0 said:


> New carvin 7-string tele!
> 7-string Tele TL70



MY DREAMS HAVE COME TRUE
FOR THE OLDS AND NEW GODS SAKE!


----------



## pushpull7

my god do want!!!!!


----------



## Alberto7

Now, you see, this I'm more on board with:







I like it A LOT better than the flamed maple one that Jeff initially posted. The color is beautiful, and the binding accentuates it really nicely. Classy.


----------



## Electric Wizard

minorseventh said:


> I wish I had a photo to contribute to this thread, but my Carvin wont be finished for another 6 weeks. I am having a DC600 built.... walnut body, spalted maple top, limba neck, and a* hipshot fixed bridge. thats right. a hipshot. *
> this 10 week wait is killing me.


Woah woah woah... How much did that set you back? I've been hoping that they'd offer this on the 6 strings.


----------



## ferret

Hipshot fixed bridge is standard on TL70, DC800 and DC7X, and an option for SCB6, SCB7, DC600, DC700...maybe others.


----------



## 12enoB

Alberto7 said:


> Now, you see, this I'm more on board with:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like it A LOT better than the flamed maple one that Jeff initially posted. The color is beautiful, and the binding accentuates it really nicely. Classy.



I've never been a fan of tele's but since the scb's came out, this guitar just looks amazing to me. Such a classy look. 

I think I'd go option crazy if I ordered an scb7 but I'd keep a tele just clean and simple.


----------



## Electric Wizard

ferret said:


> Hipshot fixed bridge is standard on TL70, DC800 and DC7X, and an option for SCB6, SCB7, DC600, DC700...maybe others.


I knew about the ERGs, never knew it was an option on 6 strings. Sure enough, it's in the builder for the DC600. Really hoping they'll expand it as an option for more models.


----------



## minorseventh

Electric Wizard said:


> Woah woah woah... How much did that set you back? I've been hoping that they'd offer this on the 6 strings.



I harassed Carvin for a long time for the Hipshot, and ChrisH helped make it happen. They have been getting numerous requests for the hipshot for quite awhile apparently. 
I am not sure if there are any completed builds with the hipshot yet, but I believe mine will be among the first ones.

Mine is under 2k, but just barely! its downright cheap compared to most custom guitars with these woods and specs. after a hefty deposit Im just putting a little cash aside each week so itll be almost painless. except the waiting arrrgh


----------



## Garnoch

If I remember right, they were going to offer it to the masses on the 6 strings for a $50 upgrade. I'm not sure if that was the final decision though.


----------



## mbardu

Walnut anyone?

Indoors:



































Outdoors:


----------



## Matthew

mbardu said:


> Walnut anyone?



That top is perfect!


----------



## soliloquy




----------



## Tyler

Placed my order a couple weeks ago for a DC600 with a natural glossed black limba body/neck with 2 white limba stripes. Ebony board, Jumbo SS frets, and a hipshot bridge. I couldn't be more stoked


----------



## JustinG60

12enoB said:


> I've never been a fan of tele's but since the scb's came out, this guitar just looks amazing to me. Such a classy look.
> 
> I think I'd go option crazy if I ordered an scb7 but I'd keep a tele just clean and simple.



i had to keep telling myself not to go too stupid on my SCB7 build i just ordered yesterday. the wait is going to kill me haha


----------



## pushpull7

What is the wait right now?


----------



## mbardu

chrisharbin said:


> What is the wait right now?



Well my ct424 has been 4 months in the making and is not close to being ready anytime now 

Then again it has some one-off option, so that's fine. 

Apparently the general wait time is back to ~2 months


----------



## FantasyMetal

I'm waiting on an HH1X should be ready at the beginning of August. 

Black Limba back and neck
Flame maple Dragonburst
Satin finish
Stainless med-jumbo frets
Ebony board with no markers

It's going to be the hawtness.


----------



## Tommy

Well I might as well post my specs for my upcoming DC800 build since I'm so excited to get it. 

Flamed Koa top with matching flamed Koa headstock
5 piece maple neck
Swamp ash wings
"Streaky" Ebony fretboard
All black hardware with black logo
And finally the brand new passive Carvin 8 string pickups.

I really can't contain my excitement for it. It should be done near the beginning of August. I'll be sure to make a really nice NGD for it with a review and clips of the new pickups.


----------



## that short guy

Tommy said:


> Well I might as well post my specs for my upcoming DC800 build since I'm so excited to get it.
> 
> Flamed Koa top with matching flamed Koa headstock
> 5 piece maple neck
> Swamp ash wings
> "Streaky" Ebony fretboard
> All black hardware with black logo
> And finally the brand new passive Carvin 8 string pickups.
> 
> I really can't contain my excitement for it. It should be done near the beginning of August. I'll be sure to make a really nice NGD for it with a review and clips of the new pickups.


 I approve of this... you can look at the picture in my signature and you'll understand why lol


----------



## Tommy

that short guy said:


> I approve of this... you can look at the picture in my signature and you'll understand why lol



Yeah man, I've seen your thread about yours. It turned out amazing looking. I hope mine turns out just as nice. Of course mine won't "pop" as much as yours but that's because I'm going with a all tung oil finish. I want it to be an extremely beautiful guitar but in a subdued natural way. 

Also, your clip involving the Holydivers sounds immense. That might be an option down the road depending how much I enjoy the passive Carvin pickups.


----------



## MrHelloGuitar

For anyone wanting an HH, I highly recommend them. The one thing that I love about them is how consistent the action is across the board. There's no such thing as playing fatigue on this bad boy. Video for proof:


----------



## that short guy

Tommy said:


> Yeah man, I've seen your thread about yours. It turned out amazing looking. I hope mine turns out just as nice. Of course mine won't "pop" as much as yours but that's because I'm going with a all tung oil finish. I want it to be an extremely beautiful guitar but in a subdued natural way.
> 
> Also, your clip involving the Holydivers sounds immense. That might be an option down the road depending how much I enjoy the passive Carvin pickups.


I like the way you described that. Makes think I'm going to be stalking your post until I see the ngd

But as far as the holydivers go, they're amazing but I've been recently coverting all my guitars to the emg 57/66 set. I haven't done it to the Carvin yet but when I do you can believe I'm gonna pay a comparison.


----------



## pushpull7

mbardu said:


> Well my ct424 has been *4 months* in the making and is not close to being ready anytime now
> 
> Then again it has some one-off option, so that's fine.
> 
> Apparently the general wait time is back to ~2 months



Ah. That is a patient man!


----------



## Tommy

that short guy said:


> I like the way you described that. Makes think I'm going to be stalking your post until I see the ngd
> 
> But as far as the holydivers go, they're amazing but I've been recently coverting all my guitars to the emg 57/66 set. I haven't done it to the Carvin yet but when I do you can believe I'm gonna pay a comparison.



You'll definitely have to post your opinion on the 57/66 set. I really do want to try them out eventually. I'd love see what you think between the two.


----------



## JustinG60

chrisharbin said:


> What is the wait right now?


 
my only semi one off option was a paint request to make sure it was done how i wanted it. they told me 9-10 weeks. 9 is average they advised but expect a little longer of a wait because the number of guitars they have being built


----------



## zilla

questions about the HH2:

if you have the non-trem version, how easy is it to switch tunings? I have 0 experience with these types of bridges. is the trem version like a steinberger trans-trem?

also, what does the 20" radius fingerboard feel like? I don't think that i've ever played anything that flat.


----------



## Tyler

They told me 8-9 weeks, but I got an invoice the other day saying it wont be done until September now, which is around 11 weeks.


----------



## jerm

I ordered June 5th/6th. I got a card in the mail saying Aug 8th it should be completed. That's 9 weeks


----------



## MrHelloGuitar

zilla said:


> questions about the HH2:
> 
> if you have the non-trem version, how easy is it to switch tunings? I have 0 experience with these types of bridges. is the trem version like a steinberger trans-trem?
> 
> also, what does the 20" radius fingerboard feel like? I don't think that i've ever played anything that flat.



I have the trem version, but I don't use it a lot (I just like having the option). I'd imagine it'd be really easy to change tunings on the fixed bridge model. I have the bridge in fixed mode right now and haven't had any problems switching back and forth from E standard to dropped D.


----------



## zilla

you can lock out the trem? \m/


----------



## Tyler

jerm said:


> I ordered June 5th/6th. I got a card in the mail saying Aug 8th it should be completed. That's 9 weeks



Thats strange, I ordered mine around the same day


----------



## MrHelloGuitar

zilla said:


> you can lock out the trem? \m/


----------



## pushpull7

JustinG60 said:


> my only semi one off option was a paint request to make sure it was done how i wanted it. they told me 9-10 weeks. 9 is average they advised but expect a little longer of a wait because the number of guitars they have being built



I'm glad they are busy though. RARELY do I see someone not gushing once they get theirs


----------



## jerm

Tyler said:


> Thats strange, I ordered mine around the same day


What did you order?
Possible that they didn't have what you ordered in stock?

I ordered:

DC700, hipshot bridge

Burl top

5 piece maple neck.



Also how are you guys taking care of your ebony fretboards and how long have you had it?


----------



## Tyler

jerm said:


> What did you order?
> Possible that they didn't have what you ordered in stock?



Black limba body & neck w/ 2 white limba stripes. Hipshot bridge, ebony board, all glossed. Nothing too exotic, I'll have to call and see why.


----------



## jbealsmusic

Not sure if it fits in this thread as it's only "part" Carvin. I built a Carvin/Warmoth hybrid. Carvin neck on a Warmoth body. I LOVE the feel of the Carvin neck. One of the best necks in the business.


----------



## Jlang

Just placed an order with Chris tonight, stoked man.


----------



## pushpull7

Did we get a definitive answer on what 6's get the hipshot (and how much? )


----------



## Tyler

chrisharbin said:


> Did we get a definitive answer on what 6's get the hipshot (and how much? )



They offer them on the DC600 for a $50 upcharge


----------



## BuckarooBanzai

I purchased some PA equipment from Carvin and just got a pair of loyalty coupons in my email for $50 off $500 OR $20 off $200. I can't justify spending any more cash money on guitars at the moment and the coupons expire July 14... if anybody wants to take advantage then PM me and I'll send them to you. Hopefully they're not pegged to my account or anything...


----------



## soliloquy

/\ they aren't. though i really wish carvin would extend that to one year. being so close to the initial purchase, its really hard to commit to another gear so close when things constantly keep going higher and higher


----------



## pushpull7

Tyler said:


> They offer them on the DC600 for a $50 upcharge



thanks. I was hoping for a couple of others.


----------



## soliloquy

chrisharbin said:


> thanks. I was hoping for a couple of others.



its still a new option and the folks at carvin are busy. give em a call and see what other models they offer it on. i highly doubt it would be offered on the CT/CS due to their arched top. but maybe in the future. i think all other flat top guitars can have that bridge


----------



## jerm

Tyler said:


> Black limba body & neck w/ 2 white limba stripes. Hipshot bridge, ebony board, all glossed. Nothing too exotic, I'll have to call and see why.


did you find out why? My guess is limba isn't always stocked?


----------



## pushpull7

soliloquy said:


> its still a new option and the folks at carvin are busy. give em a call and see what other models they offer it on. i highly doubt it would be offered on the CT/CS due to their arched top. but maybe in the future. i think all other flat top guitars can have that bridge



Yeah, I don't think they'd be on those.


----------



## Tyler

jerm said:


> did you find out why? My guess is limba isn't always stocked?



They actually couldn't tell me why. I just had to deal with them double charging me for another guitar that wasnt part of my order and Im currently waiting for them to refund me for that.


----------



## HattersGonnaHat

Just got off the phone, I've joined the club! Bolt Plus club specifically. I actually asked about Option 50ing a Hipshot bridge and they wouldn't do it, they said they had to reprogram the machines for it on the DC600 and SCB6 since it doesn't retrofit the FT6 bridge. So I went for the FT6 with String Savers, which is fine by me.

Anyway these are the specs for my build, it's about as stripped down as they come.

BOLT PLUS FIXED BRIDGE 
GRAPH TECH STRNG SADDLE 
CLEAR SATIN MATT FINISH
CLASSIC WHITE
MAPLE FINGERBOARD W/BLK DOT 
STAINLESS STEEL JUMBO FRET 
ADD CENTER POSITION AP11 
BLACK CARVIN LOGO 
STRAPLOCKS BY DUNLOP INSTALLED 
IVORY GRAPH TECH TUSQ NUT


----------



## Jack Secret

So....I went all out this time. 

V220 w/ Floyd bridge & locking nut 
Swamp ash body with antique ash treatment 
Burled maple top 
Trans Nightburst w/ Deep Triple Step
Gloss body 
Painted satin back of neck 
5 piece all maple neck 
Reverse pointy headstock 
Headstock matches finish (saw no reason for the burled maple upgrade here) 
Ebony fingerboard 
No inlays 
Stainless med jumbo frets 
M22SD bridge & M22N neck pickups
Gold hardware 
Jack inside the V body 
9's for strings 
LARGE white Carvin logo 
Big ol' fat V220 hardcase 

I look forward to the gloriousness and now humbly await Carvin #14.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Jack Secret said:


> So....I went all out this time.
> 
> V220 w/ Floyd bridge & locking nut
> Swamp ash body with antique ash treatment
> Burled maple top
> Trans Nightburst w/ Deep Triple Step
> Gloss body
> Painted satin back of neck
> 5 piece all maple neck
> Reverse pointy headstock
> Headstock matches finish (saw no reason for the burled maple upgrade here)
> Ebony fingerboard
> No inlays
> Stainless med jumbo frets
> M22SD bridge & M22N neck pickups
> Gold hardware
> Jack inside the V body
> 9's for strings
> LARGE white Carvin logo
> Big ol' fat V220 hardcase
> 
> I look forward to the gloriousness and now humbly await Carvin #14.



If you didn't get the burl headstock upgrade, you didn't quite go "all" out, did you? 

But... Looking forward to seeing this one cone aliiiiiiive


----------



## Electric Wizard

Jack Secret said:


> Swamp ash body with antique ash treatment


 GAS was doubled upon my discovery of this option. Eagerly awaiting the NGD.


----------



## Jack Secret

_MonSTeR_ said:


> If you didn't get the burl headstock upgrade, you didn't quite go "all" out, did you?
> 
> But... Looking forward to seeing this one cone aliiiiiiive



Well, since I got the reverse pointy headstock with the big Carvin logo, not much burl maple was gonna be seen so I may as well save the $80.



Electric Wizard said:


> GAS was doubled upon my discovery of this option. Eagerly awaiting the NGD.



I've no idea what it's gonna look like through trans nightburst but I guess I'll find out in 8 weeks or so.


----------



## Jack Secret

Here's some pics of my Carvin HH2 (or headless Holdsworth) in seafoam green that actually look seafoam green and not frickin' white!


----------



## Jack Secret

Today's pic! My CT624 quilt top in dragonburst!


----------



## Exit Existence

^Me waiting for my Carvin. 1 more week until estimated completion date. Feels like FOREVER


----------



## mbardu

I've been waiting for mine for almost 20 weeks.. You have it easy...


----------



## HUGH JAYNUS

looking for a 2nd job just to please my Carvin GAS.......


----------



## Exit Existence

mbardu said:


> I've been waiting for mine for almost 20 weeks.. You have it easy...



oh my. You are scaring me. Any special reason? or are they just that backed up


----------



## mbardu

Exit Existence said:


> oh my. You are scaring me. Any special reason? or are they just that backed up



It's a prototype for a new feature :


----------



## Exit Existence

Piezo bride in carvins fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuukkkkkkkk


----------



## mbardu

Exit Existence said:


> Piezo bride in carvins fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuukkkkkkkk



Well it's not new across the board (already available on the semi hollows and some DCs) - it's just new for Carved Tops


----------



## Jack Secret

Now I can make a Gibson Alex Lifeson model and NOT pay $5000! Oh Carvin, I love you so!


----------



## mbardu

Jack Secret said:


> Now I can make a Gibson Alex Lifeson model and NOT pay $5000! Oh Carvin, I love you so!



Or get a CT...c for a hybrid p24/Custom 24 Floyd ...

Yummy!

At least that's the spirit of the prototype I had them build


----------



## Jack Secret

I got my Carvin postcard for my new insano V220 build. Sept 10 is the due date. It's like waiting for your child to be born.....albeit a child you can send back within 10 days if you don't like it and get a new one.


----------



## Jake

Seriously seriously considering going slightly bananas on a contour C66 build instead of buying another PRS for my college graduation present to myself after some intense thought. Anyone wanna talk me out of it? 

spec wise I'm thinking:

-MA - Maple Neck/Alder Body (Standard) $0.00 
-CG - Clear Gloss Finish (Standard) $0.00 
FDB4 - Deep Blue Flame $0.00  
-IN - Inline Headstock (Standard) $0.00 
FPH4 - Flamed Maple Headstock Matches Body Finish $0.00 - $0.00
FMF - Flamed Maple Fingerboard (Tung-Oiled) $60.00
-DI - Dot Inlays (Standard) $0.00
STF - Stainless Med-Jumbo Frets 
-R14 - 14in Fretboard Radius (Standard) $0.00 
-C22 - Direct-Mount C22B/C22J Pickups (Standard) $0.00 -400
- Black Pickups (Standard) $0.00 BC 
- Black Hardware $30.00 -1046E 
- Elixir Light Gauge .010 - .046 (Standard) $0.00 WL 
- White Logo $0.00 SC10 
- Black Ultimate Soft Guitar Case

I'm really liking the idea in my head


----------



## soliloquy

carvins prices on certain models has jumped over night. some have seen an increase between 30-200 bucks. 

i'm very interested in the peizo bridge. i wonder how that would work with a bigsby bridge on an sh550


----------



## mbardu

soliloquy said:


> carvins prices on certain models has jumped over night. some have seen an increase between 30-200 bucks.
> 
> i'm very interested in the peizo bridge. i wonder how that would work with a bigsby bridge on an sh550



Bigsby has been done before and is an option on the SH65, SH575 (eg, not only piezo, but midi too) etc..

The important piece is the saddles - and that's the same with or without bigsby


----------



## pushpull7

soliloquy said:


> carvins prices on certain models has jumped over night. some have seen an increase between 30-200 bucks.



WOW! You're not kidding!


----------



## Jack Secret

boom


----------



## Chris O

I see a Carvin in my future...


----------



## TRENCHLORD

They've added a few pictures randomly to their model galleries.
Just to tempt us all.










^^^I love this st300.


----------



## TheFashel12

TRENCHLORD said:


> They've added a few pictures randomly to their model galleries.
> Just to tempt us all.



What's crazy about this guitar is that they matched the figuring of the limba wings with the figuring of the walnut in the neck


----------



## OmegaSlayer

Jack Secret said:


> boom



Is this real?


----------



## gunch

Can you get C66's with the pointed 3x3 headstock yet


----------



## soliloquy




----------



## OmegaSlayer

Those maple painted fretboards made me orgasm.
How are they playability wise?


----------



## soliloquy

OmegaSlayer said:


> Those maple painted fretboards made me orgasm.
> How are they playability wise?



carvins for the most part all play the same. their lowest end and highest end receive the same standard of care when making the guitars, and that quality is fairly high! 

now with that said, the new keisel edition guitars seems to be getting more attention to details, so i assume they'd play better than regular carvin guitars. if that is true, these new ones would play AWESOME!


----------



## mbardu

silverabyss said:


> Can you get C66's with the pointed 3x3 headstock yet



One of my c66s has the pointy :


----------



## Clydefrog

i nearly had a heart attack thinking that was a giant chunk taken out of that thing, man

don't do this to us


----------



## Ajb667

mbardu said:


> One of my c66s has the pointy :



Every time I see that thing my heart leaps in my throat and I think the leaf is a chunk.


Every damn time.




That being said, its gorgeous.



My carvin ships sept 9 and the wait is KILLING me.


----------



## Jake

Thoroughly enjoying my first Carvin that I got this week





only thing that could be changed in the future is the pickups, but for now they're actually quite nice for what I'm using it for which isn't metal surprisingly


----------



## mbardu

Clydefrog said:


> i nearly had a heart attack thinking that was a giant chunk taken out of that thing, man
> 
> don't do this to us



Lol...

No, this guitar is as pristine as the way it was built.

I baby my Carvins (and other guitars too for that matter...)


----------



## Ajb667

How long does it usually take to finish building the guitar once they start? Mine is supposed to ship September 9th, so Im trying to figure out when I should start refreshing my order page like a madman to see if it's started building.


----------



## Alberto7

^ I did that throughout the entire 7-8 weeks it took, regardless of the stage it was at.


----------



## Tyler

Ajb667 said:


> How long does it usually take to finish building the guitar once they start? Mine is supposed to ship September 9th, so Im trying to figure out when I should start refreshing my order page like a madman to see if it's started building.



Where do you find the order page? Mine is supposed to be done September 2nd


----------



## Toejam

Ajb667 said:


> How long does it usually take to finish building the guitar once they start? Mine is supposed to ship September 9th, so Im trying to figure out when I should start refreshing my order page like a madman to see if it's started building.



Anywhere from about 8 to 11 weeks, approximately.


----------



## Tyler

Toejam said:


> Anywhere from about 8 to 11 weeks, approximately.



Thats just the wait, the build time is included within that


----------



## jerm

I only saw a picture of mine after like 8 weeks. 

Can't wait!!!


----------



## Toejam

Tyler said:


> Thats just the wait, the build time is included within that



Well, yeah, from the time you order until you receive the guitar, typically it's anywhere from 8 to 11 weeks, give or take.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

So uh... I recently applied for one of Carvin's credit cards. Got approved for far too much. I'm probably a ways off from actually placing an order, as I really want to pay down what I already owe, but I can't help but look through this thread and gas like a mofo. Hopefully by Christmas I'll make my first Carvin purchase. Judging by some of the shit you guys are posting, I'm sure it'll be a treat and a half.


----------



## pushpull7

So you'll be getting two then will you?


----------



## Alberto7

jerm said:


> I only saw a picture of mine after like 8 weeks.
> 
> Can't wait!!!



I've been seeing that guitar a lot recently. It's friggin' gorgeous man.  Speaking of which, how the heck do you get them to take those professional-looking pictures of the guitars?  I know that since about a year or so ago they've been posting pictures on Facebook of most guitars that are being built, but I've seen a few over the years (including yours) that get several full-body shots from several cool angles after they're done. Do they just take pictures of the ones they like, or are you somehow able to request them? I know they don't do any progress pictures upon request like most smaller custom shops, so that's why I'm asking.


----------



## jerm

Alberto7 said:


> I've been seeing that guitar a lot recently. It's friggin' gorgeous man.  Speaking of which, how the heck do you get them to take those professional-looking pictures of the guitars?  I know that since about a year or so ago they've been posting pictures on Facebook of most guitars that are being built, but I've seen a few over the years (including yours) that get several full-body shots from several cool angles after they're done. Do they just take pictures of the ones they like, or are you somehow able to request them? I know they don't do any progress pictures upon request like most smaller custom shops, so that's why I'm asking.


Thanks man!

Ya, I didn't ask or anything. I spoke to Chris Hong about the finish on the sides and the back (I didn't think there would be any but since I asked for a painted satin finish, the sides and back get painted), and then he asked if they could hold onto it for another day or so to take some shots, so I said yes. and then I saw it up on Instagram and Facebook .


----------



## Jack Secret

Señor Voorhees;4121577 said:


> So uh... I recently applied for one of Carvin's credit cards. Got approved for far too much. I'm probably a ways off from actually placing an order, as I really want to pay down what I already owe, but I can't help but look through this thread and gas like a mofo. Hopefully by Christmas I'll make my first Carvin purchase. Judging by some of the shit you guys are posting, I'm sure it'll be a treat and a half.



I got exactly 5 weeks of waiting left. Fear the monster that's coming.

FEAR!


----------



## soliloquy

Ajb667 said:


> How long does it usually take to finish building the guitar once they start? Mine is supposed to ship September 9th, so Im trying to figure out when I should start refreshing my order page like a madman to see if it's started building.



dont hold your breath on that page. 
when i ordered my 2011 cs6m i kept trying to refresh that page well AFTER i had received the guitar and it still kept saying the built hasn't started.


----------



## ferret

I gave my final payment information yesterday, should be a NGD coming by next week. Be ready for delicious walnut content.


----------



## Ajb667

Tyler said:


> Where do you find the order page? Mine is supposed to be done September 2nd


 On the home page, click on "My Account" and log in. "recent orders/tracking info" is where you want to go.



Tyler said:


> Thats just the wait, the build time is included within that


Yeah, I was wondering how long it actually took to BUILD, not the whole wait time.


----------



## Alberto7

jerm said:


> Thanks man!
> 
> Ya, I didn't ask or anything. I spoke to Chris Hong about the finish on the sides and the back (I didn't think there would be any but since I asked for a painted satin finish, the sides and back get painted), and then he asked if they could hold onto it for another day or so to take some shots, so I said yes. and then I saw it up on Instagram and Facebook .



Aaahh right! So it is just the ones they like, then.  Yours is definitely a beautiful one! Thanks for the feedback, dude!


----------



## mbardu

Toejam said:


> Anywhere from about 8 to 11 weeks, approximately.



My current build is at 23 weeks and counting


----------



## mbardu

Oh and while I'm here... some moss for your viewing pleasure!


----------



## pushpull7

mbardu said:


> My current build is at 23 weeks and counting



Good god, what did they have to do, import from putin??????????


----------



## jerm

mbardu said:


> My current build is at 23 weeks and counting


Don't try to scare people 

You ordered a new prototype, not the same thing here


----------



## mbardu

jerm said:


> Don't try to scare people
> 
> You ordered a new prototype, not the same thing here




Haha, yeah  

Ordered a new option and it took longer expected, but I was aware and don't have a problem with that. 

In normal circumstances, a custom build will be at your door within 10 weeks..


----------



## Ajb667

Carvin just posted THIS to their facebook:




It looks just like the guitar I ordered  Mine isn't due to ship till Spetember 9th, so either its finished SUPER early, or some other brilliant bastard ordered the same specs as me.


----------



## zilla

mbardu said:


> Oh and while I'm here... some moss for your viewing pleasure!




mother of god. 

what are the specs on that?


----------



## redlol

soliloquy said:


>





Simply... Pornographic.


----------



## mbardu

zilla said:


> mother of god.
> 
> what are the specs on that?



Deep Moss green flame ct7, Birdseye maple fingerboard. 

Namm 2014 guitar btw. 

Carvin's deep moss is really an awesome finish imo.


----------



## Jack Secret

So I took my Roland GK-3 MIDI pickup off my AE185 (which is going on the selling block) and put it on my DC600 hardtail black limba then hooked up my GR-55 which I haven't used in a loooooooooooooong time. I spent 4 hours noodling around on presets. I forgot how much I have fun with MIDI.


----------



## slim231990

My Space Dragon! F***ING love Carvin, I've owned Gibby customs, and MIJ Ibanez and nothing comes close to the tone and playability of this monster! Shes a little dirty, but it's bc I can't keep my hands off her


----------



## NickS

Damn man, that is hot

Got any pics of the sides and back? I wanna see that binding.


----------



## NickS

Also, specs please!


----------



## slim231990

sure man i will upload some more pics here soon 

all mahogany body and neck,
maple top, natural wood binding, ebony FB no streaking,SS frets, abalone inlays guitar blows any Les Paul's sustain ive ever played amazing guitar for 1400 cant beat the price for the specs appreciate the interest man! Oh yea big customization is the EMG's 707TW amazing pups


----------



## soliloquy

slim231990, you really spammed all my posts in this thread with likes, didn't ya? 

question regarding matte finish. i see some shiny spots on it. does the finish turn glossy rather quick? 

i'm debating a white/white or diamond white guitar in matte with black binding


----------



## slim231990

Yea... the reason why it looks so shiny is bc of me sweating and oil, i should've wiped her down before the pics but like i said i cant keep my hands off of her lol anyways they matte finish seems to be holding up great so far im a sweater so i thought the matte neck might help and it really does! i love the feel of how slick the whole guitar is def glad i went matte


----------



## pushpull7

I want a new carvin... (sigh) ....guess I'll go troll their site.......


----------



## pushpull7

right at about the 1600usd mark for the 600 with the hipshot. I want the birdseye maple and tis A HIGH upcharge (400 bucks? ) so if I wanted to to with a solid color (an option) it would be at about the 1200usd range.


----------



## decreebass

soliloquy said:


> question regarding matte finish. i see some shiny spots on it. does the finish turn glossy rather quick?



It takes a couple months, but all matte/satin finishes eventually wear shiny, I'm afraid, but as long as you're not wiping your guitar down after every play session, you'll have the finish longer. Remember, a matte finish is essentially a shiny finish that's not buffed to a sheen, and every time you touch it, you're buffing it a little bit more. But I think it adds character, so to each his own 

EDIT: In case it wasn't obvious, it only starts to get shiny in the high-traffic spots, not the whole thing; for me it's on the body by the treble side where my pinky rests and by the volume pot.


----------



## pushpull7

Aw, now I'm starting to rethink it. I was thinking satin matte finish but now I am worried about that. In fact, I was starting to think about the black in that "flat" mode like slim.


----------



## ferret

SCB6 is finally here!

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/standard-guitars/277458-ngd-carvin-scb6-dressed-walnut.html


----------



## GBH14

I want a TL-60 so bad!! 

As soon as I have sold a couple of things I will be putting an order in I think!!!


----------



## Jack Secret

GBH14 said:


> I want a TL-60 so bad!!
> 
> As soon as I have sold a couple of things I will be putting an order in I think!!!



TL60's are rather nice. Of course, it can get a bit hairy when you get to pick your own specs. Fun but hairy.


----------



## ferret

New options available this week!







New standard color: Lava
New standard fret option: EVO Gold wire
New standard fretboard wood: Zebrawood


----------



## zilla

so. much. want.

waiting for the ziricote fingerboard option


----------



## spawnofthesith

Love this thread. Anyone know if Carvin offers an antigua finish?


----------



## Jack Secret

spawnofthesith said:


> Love this thread. Anyone know if Carvin offers an antigua finish?



They don't. If there's anything limited, it's actually the colors they offer. They shuffle them around from time to time. Sadly, I don't think the over sparkly Harlequin Promenade will ever make a comeback.


----------



## ferret

Never say never about colors. I think the only thing they outright refuse are heavy metallic flake paints. Call in, never know what they'll do as an opt 50 color.


----------



## Jack Secret

Lookit this badass. Carvin just pepperin' balls over the ballpark fence. 7 string TL60 with zebrawood fingerboard.


----------



## ChrisH

I was the one that put that claro TL70 with the zebrawood board together. It was the first zebrawood guitar to be built because I told Jeff I wanted to design it once he mentioned that we might do something with that wood. Mighty purdy don't ya think? ;D

Also, we CAN do harlequin prismatique if you're willing to pay for it. It's a very expensive finish per quart and is hell on our equipment.


----------



## Jack Secret

ChrisH said:


> I was the one that put that claro TL70 with the zebrawood board together. It was the first zebrawood guitar to be built because I told Jeff I wanted to design it once he mentioned that we might do something with that wood. Mighty purdy don't ya think? ;D
> 
> Also, we CAN do harlequin prismatique if you're willing to pay for it. It's a very expensive finish per quart and is hell on our equipment.



Nah, don't tempt me. I could imagine the trouble that paint is. There will probably be a lava in my future, I think. Just need to wait on my new V220 nightburst burl top. Waiting hurts.


----------



## Garnoch

ChrisH said:


> I was the one that put that claro TL70 with the zebrawood board together. It was the first zebrawood guitar to be built because I told Jeff I wanted to design it once he mentioned that we might do something with that wood. Mighty purdy don't ya think? ;D
> 
> Also, we CAN do harlequin prismatique if you're willing to pay for it. It's a very expensive finish per quart and is hell on our equipment.




Chris, amazing, job. That guitar is sick! Everything about it blends beautifully, congrats.


----------



## GBH14

Ahhh man! that has completely changed how I want my TL60 to look!!! 

I wish I had enough money for 2 or 3, then it wouldn't be so hard to choose one spec!!!


----------



## pushpull7

Stupid question to those with floyd Carvins: Is that one better than the one I had on my MIJ charvel? It used to come loose so easy.


----------



## Jack Secret

chrisharbin said:


> Stupid question to those with floyd Carvins: Is that one better than the one I had on my MIJ charvel? It used to come loose so easy.



I've never had any problem with Floyds slipping or coming loose. They're all the same so it was probably a deal with that individual guitar.


----------



## decreebass

Now that Carvin uses OFRs, they're great (though I never had any issues with my LFRs).

@ChrisH - would you (or someone else) mind posting a pic pic of this 'harlequin' paint job you guys are talking about?


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

decreebass said:


> @ChrisH - would you (or someone else) mind posting a pic pic of this 'harlequin' paint job you guys are talking about?


----------



## Jack Secret

mmmmmm Harlequin finish. Ah well, I'm only buying new Carvins at this point so I'll never have one. Bit sad my forthcoming V220 would have looked great with gold frets but I'll probably get them next build. The gold ones are a little less strong than steel but far more strong than nickel.


----------



## zilla

ChrisH said:


> I was the one that put that claro TL70 with the zebrawood board together. It was the first zebrawood guitar to be built because I told Jeff I wanted to design it once he mentioned that we might do something with that wood. Mighty purdy don't ya think? ;D
> 
> Also, we CAN do harlequin prismatique if you're willing to pay for it. It's a very expensive finish per quart and is hell on our equipment.




Can you guys make a fingerboard from ziricote?


----------



## mbardu

decreebass said:


> Now that Carvin uses OFRs, they're great (though I never had any issues with my LFRs).
> 
> @ChrisH - would you (or someone else) mind posting a pic pic of this 'harlequin' paint job you guys are talking about?




IIRC even the 'licensed' Carvin Floyds of the past (at least for 6 strings) were made by Schaller or Gotoh - so top notch quality anyway.

Today yeah...it's OFR for both 6 and 7 stringers...


----------



## mbardu

And some Koa goodness for good measure 


























'Vintage' 94 Carvin DC127 full koa (this is not a top - the 2 body wings are solid flamed koa pieces + 2 piece Koa neck), M22 pickups, and 'old school' original Carvin licensed Wilkinson trem.

Speaking of Trems...
Although the current VS-50 Wilky that Carvin puts on contemporary builds is... let's say questionable... that older model however is unbelievable. It can easily take 2 tones up or down; do dives, wobbles, you name it...and it goes back to the zero position in perfect pitch with no issue at all. Beats or ties with the PRS trems, and Gotoh two-point systems IMO and that's saying a lot!


----------



## gunch

ZOOP


----------



## Jack Secret

Flathead screwdriver locking nuts? The hell?


----------



## 59Bassman

silverabyss said:


> ZOOP



That's some old school right there....


----------



## mbardu

silverabyss said:


> ZOOP



Must be so much fun to tune (and keep in tune) that nice 12 stringer, with the totally-not straight-pull strings


----------



## decreebass

Grand Moff Tim said:


>



My god that's an ugly finish!!! haha Oh well, to each his own.


----------



## Jack Secret




----------



## Tyler

Mine will be here Wednesday


----------



## GBH14

Why is it they offer the hipshot on the TL70 but no the TL60?


----------



## Toejam

GBH14 said:


> Why is it they offer the hipshot on the TL70 but no the TL60?



I'm pretty sure they do offer it now. They have the 6-string Hipshot available (as I've seen at least one guitar on their forum with it), but you have to probably call in your order as the online builder has not been updated.


----------



## ferret

GBH14 said:


> Why is it they offer the hipshot on the TL70 but no the TL60?



The TL70 was recently programmed for their CNC and when they did it, they included routing for hipshot. The TL60 is a much older program and (If they haven't already) they would have to go back and redo the programming to include hipshot. I'm confident they will eventually if they haven't, but that's why the offerings are different.

I hear they have new CNC machines coming in soon(ish), so I bet a lot of features like this will get reviewed.


----------



## GBH14

I don't know whether to wait for it to be offered so I get what I want or just accept I can't have the hipshot right now. I could be waiting some time if I wait though I guess..


----------



## Jack Secret

GBH14 said:


> I don't know whether to wait for it to be offered so I get what I want or just accept I can't have the hipshot right now. I could be waiting some time if I wait though I guess..



I'm sure they could do it without a hitch. Floyds aren't on the builder for TL60's but they did it for someone when they asked. One thing I learned using Carvin is it never hurts to ask them what they can and can't do.


----------



## crystallake

Ever since I saw this video last month, I've been itching for this exact TL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7IysJG1D5g


----------



## ferret

crystallake said:


> Ever since I saw this video last month, I've been itching for this exact TL
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7IysJG1D5g



I think Guitar World is now running a contest for that exact guitar, though they could have made multiple. Check Carvin's Facebook for it.


----------



## soliloquy

so...now carvin is finishing fret boards






not sure if like....too rich for my blood, but i'm sure someone would appreciate them


----------



## ferret

That's the latest, they've been posting for a couple months now. This one seems to be a prototype for doing a fade from the nut down to the body.


----------



## ChrisH

Wait til you guys see the finished product.


----------



## ChrisH

silverabyss said:


> ZOOP



That there fiddle must've had a Kahler. That era ('88-'89) is my favorite era Carvin <3


----------



## Jack Secret

I've thought about the stained boards as well but maybe on a future build. Still want gold frets on something. Thought about calling Mike Jones at Carvin and asking but the neck's done and don't want to be a pain in the butt.


----------



## zilla

I'm still a bit up in the air about stained fingerboards... 

I can appreciate it, but it's a bit like those PRS dragon guitars... exquisite work, but at the end of the day the fingerboard ends up looking too busy.

I prefer a roasted tung oiled flame maple neck and board


----------



## ChrisH

Jack Secret said:


> I've thought about the stained boards as well but maybe on a future build. Still want gold frets on something. Thought about calling Mike Jones at Carvin and asking but the neck's done and don't want to be a pain in the butt.



Well, not even Mike would know. Jeff's the only person who does them at the moment. It's a special treatment process so that nothing rubs off easily. Lasts a while, even through rigorous touring.


----------



## Tyler

She has arrived


----------



## pushpull7




----------



## Jack Secret

ChrisH said:


> Well, not even Mike would know. Jeff's the only person who does them at the moment. It's a special treatment process so that nothing rubs off easily. Lasts a while, even through rigorous touring.



I meant about gold frets on my current build, not the stained board.


----------



## GBH14

Hmm... Decisions, decisions, decisions.





This is obviously not a TL60 but it gives a rough idea. The headstock would be the Carvin reversed in-line.

I'n not sure on what finish to go for. The last one is meant to be a sunset burst sort of colour, I couldn't really get it to look right though.

I'm thinking about a flame maple top, fretboard and neck but is that a bit too much flame?! is there such thing as too much flame??

Its so hard to decide, especially being in the UK and not being able to see anything! I also wont have the liberty of the 10 day trial!


----------



## soliloquy

GBH14 said:


> Hmm... Decisions, decisions, decisions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is obviously not a TL60 but it gives a rough idea. The headstock would be the Carvin reversed in-line.
> 
> I'n not sure on what finish to go for. The last one is meant to be a sunset burst sort of colour, I couldn't really get it to look right though.
> 
> I'm thinking about a flame maple top, fretboard and neck but is that a bit too much flame?! is there such thing as too much flame??
> 
> Its so hard to decide, especially being in the UK and not being able to see anything! I also wont have the liberty of the 10 day trial!



i personally would go with the black flame with gold hardwear. it looks beautiful in that combo with the maple board


----------



## atticus1088

Hey Guys,

I wanted to share my DC600 that I got in January.
It's my favorite guitar so far, but now I have a problem...
I keep wanting to start other builds (i.e. a JB200 and a CT).
To make matters worse, most of my Prestige's have been getting put on ebay/classifieds because I can't put this one down. 
The neck is just too perfect, and I can get the action crazy low without any fret buzz. 
Which is something I've never been able to do my Ibanez's (the no fret buzz part).

It's got a walnut body/neck (single piece neck), flamed top, all tung-oil, ebony board (no streaking), 
SS med-jumbo frets, black hardware, and currently a brushed black chrome EMG 57/66 set.

Also, take note of the good angles of the recessed TOM, you can see how low it actually sits.

Hope these pics aren't too big....













The walnut is actually a lot darker, but the lighting + flash make it look light.










Pic of when I first got it with the soft case.





Here's one with Flash!


----------



## Zepos16

^ That is pure win man!


----------



## Jack Secret

Naked & sexy! 

Plus, I always approve of no inlays on ebony boards.

That Carvin builder...it's basically heroin for Carvinites. "Welllllllll, I don't NEED a new guitar but it can't hurt to spec one out...<ten minutes later>...DAMMIT, WHERE'S THAT FRICKIN' CREDIT CARD!"


----------



## zilla

Which is why my visa is never in the same room as me when I am surfing.

The death of me will be when carvin accepts paypal...


----------



## Ajb667

I just got my DC800 a few days ago. I'm going to do a NGD tomorrow since the sun will be out and my phone takes good out door pics. It's been cloudy so I only have a couple shitty indoor ones like this.


I jumped from an rg8 to this, and it blew my mind.


----------



## ChrisH

zilla said:


> Which is why my visa is never in the same room as me when I am surfing.
> 
> The death of me will be when carvin accepts paypal...



You should make funeral arrangements post haste because we've been doing this for a while now 

Only over the phone of course.


----------



## Toejam

My Carvins all in one room. 2002 SC90, 2011 DC727, 2014 DC800.


----------



## Alberto7

Dat SC90!  So much class.  Reminds me of that Ritter Princess Isabella guitar, except not strange-looking.


----------



## Toejam

I saw that in their In-Stock section back in 2002, Classic White with swamp ash body. I just couldn't stop looking at it for a few days, so I had to call and grab it, and it was my first Carvin! It had two coil split switches, but I eventually put in an extra volume and tone, and the switch got changed to a DiMarzio "Petrucci" switch for the inner coils on in the middle position.


----------



## Jack Secret

I'm at 2 weeks left for my deep triple stain nightburst/burl maple top/antique ash treated swamp ash body/gold hardware V220. 

I don't think I've ever been so nervous/excited waiting for a guitar.


----------



## mbardu

Some singlecut love for that thread!


----------



## Toejam

mbardu said:


> Some singlecut love for that thread!



 Now you need a white one!


----------



## Jack Secret

Toejam said:


> Now you need a white one!



Well, speaking of white ones...diamond pearl white, that is...

I have this coming in from the Carvin Guitars In Stock while I await the nightburst burlmonster.







Xccelerator X54 5 string bass. Needed bass. Saw this. Has dots. Doesn't bother me.


----------



## Toejam

That's pretty awesome! That headstock and body shape are sweet.


----------



## ferret

Wooo, my SCB6 was on the official instragram. I'm a star now! ..... not really.


----------



## Jack Secret

Toejam said:


> That's pretty awesome! That headstock and body shape are sweet.



It's kinda like a DC600 in bass form.


----------



## JmCastor

Had a Marine friend of mine take some good pictures for me  really captures the flame, i hope it excites your DC800 GAS (and stand by because i'm going to be dropping in a Emerald set sometime next week, clips will follow!)


----------



## GBH14

Perfect! Looks amazing. That fretboard!!!



JmCastor said:


> Had a Marine friend of mine take some good pictures for me  really captures the flame, i hope it excites your DC800 GAS (and stand by because i'm going to be dropping in a Emerald set sometime next week, clips will follow!)


----------



## Jack Secret

JmCastor said:


> Had a Marine friend of mine take some good pictures for me  really captures the flame, i hope it excites your DC800 GAS (and stand by because i'm going to be dropping in a Emerald set sometime next week, clips will follow!)



Why is it a quilted maple headstock and a flamed maple body?


----------



## JmCastor

Jack Secret said:


> Why is it a quilted maple headstock and a flamed maple body?



Haha man honestly i just realized how the headstock was predominately a quilt, so the absolute first thing i did was to make sure i ordered a flame headstock (which i did). After making sure of that, i'll offer these explanations

1. Its is kinda an in between piece, as someone who ordered a quilt would be dissatisfied in the lack of "waviness" but you can still notice the straight "flame" characteristics. 

2. Maybe they were just like "f it, he'll totally love the guitar anyway" which i doubt but there is some truth there because i could not imagine sending this beast back just to wait for another one with a different headstock overlay.

In any case, despite its abnormality, i still love it to pieces and for me playability and tone far outmatch looks (still relative to price though, i certainly understand paying over 2000$ and wanting a guitar to look spectacular) which is exactly why i am going to be rocking the passive in super huge gaps until i can get suitable pickup rings 

.....its just bothers me that i didn't catch in the first place now haha

Edit: and now that i've had a look around, a good bit of Flame maple headstocks from carvin certainly have "quilt" characteristics from certain angles.


----------



## Jack Secret

IT'S COMING!


----------



## Veritech Zero

Holy cow that is amazing!


----------



## Alberto7

Wow, that is stunning dude!  Somehow it reminds me of a Kelly in Eerie Dess swirl au naturel.

Also, JmCastor, I cannot see your pictures...


----------



## jerm

damn that burl is sick


----------



## Jack Secret

I'm not gonna lie. Burl maple & swamp ash are not the only woods I got going on right now.


----------



## ferret

Yeah, that burl goes into my folder of "future photo matches"


----------



## Cloudy

Jesus christ that is the NICEST burl I have ever seen.


----------



## jerm

damn that burl is redonk


----------



## Jack Secret

I've been told she's fully assembled and waiting in the photo booth for sexy shots on Monday then she'll be on her way. Then comes the wait for UPS and jumping up and peeking out the window every time I hear a truck pass. 

Proper NGD when she arrives. Already have the PERFECT thread title.


----------



## Speculum Speculorum

So guys... I just noticed that Carvin are now offering the CS624 with the pointed headstock.

How the Sam Hill did they manage to sneak that one by me? I was on this thread and the Carvin FB page a while back asking exactly why they would avoid such an awesome combo. SO COOL to see that they're finally doing it. And it hurts my gas, big tiiiiime!


----------



## Jack Secret

Speculum Speculorum said:


> So guys... I just noticed that Carvin are now offering the CS624 with the pointed headstock.
> 
> How the Sam Hill did they manage to sneak that one by me? I was on this thread and the Carvin FB page a while back asking exactly why they would avoid such an awesome combo. SO COOL to see that they're finally doing it. And it hurts my gas, big tiiiiime!




I'm kicking myself they started offering gold frets after I placed the order for the V220.


----------



## Speculum Speculorum

I've heard there can be some problems with gold frets wearing faster though - or is that just hearsay?


----------



## ferret

Speculum Speculorum said:


> I've heard there can be some problems with gold frets wearing faster though - or is that just hearsay?



Should be hearsay. They're in-between nickle and stainless steel for hardness.


----------



## Jack Secret

Speculum Speculorum said:


> I've heard there can be some problems with gold frets wearing faster though - or is that just hearsay?



As ferret said. They're a smidge below stainless but much better than nickel. I just think they would have looked cool in the overall picture.


----------



## ChrisH

It's about HV 250 (+/-20) on the Vickers scale. To give you an idea, stainless should be around HV 300 (+/-20) while nickel frets depending on who you go through will be between HV 170-200.


----------



## Speculum Speculorum

Also I just heard about this EVO fret stuff and didn't realize it was a different alloy.

Anyway, I just talked for a while today with a really cool Carvin rep and I'll tell you guys what... he gave me some GREAT vibes about buying a Carvin.

I have GASed over a CS624 or CS4 for a very long time, and after we got to talking, I realized I need to make this thing happen at some point. I'm waiting to hear back on some specifics on questions regarding the "antique" finish, but here are the general specs:

- Mahogany body 
- Highly figured swamp ash top
- Figured swamp ash top for headstock
- Top antique satin finish - waiting to hear back how dark they can make it - hoping for very dark.
- Translucent black satin finish back of body
- Five-piece mahogany/black limba stripes neck with clear satin finish
- highly figured BE maple fretboard with jumbo ss frets
- abalone double dots at 12th fret only
- pointy headstock
- Black hardware
- TOM bridge

Now here's the really cool part. Provided that they are not covered pickups, the rep told me it was totally cool to send in BKP pickups for installation. Further, it's apparently cool to send in all the electronics appointments, so I can provide them with BKP pots and they'll put them in as well - this of course voids the 10 day warranty, but if I'm going to buy this guitar, it's going to be for keeps. He even googled the infamous Mayones "antique black oil" finish and talked about how they could go about getting close to that look, which is very important to me - there's no sexier finish, in my opinion.

All around, the process of talking with the dude on the phone was pretty stinkin' awesome, and I'm definitely impressed with the level of courtesy and open honesty about options that were either possible or not. It's some of the best customer service I've had from a music company in a long time and he totally won me over. Now I just need to sell a bit o gear and I'll likely place an order, provided I hear that they can do the type of finish I'm seeking.


----------



## Jack Secret

I got pics via instragram of my V220 in the photo booth. The NGD is gonna blow this forum wide open unless the Carvin haters come out with the torches & pitchforks made from Gibson & PRS necks  LOL


----------



## Jack Secret




----------



## Alberto7

^ Carvin Custom Top 24 Private Stock? 

Seriously though, if Carvin are doing this now...  I love you, Carvin.

EDIT: now that I remember, Jeff was talking on FB about the paint shop having a love/hate relationship with him.


----------



## Jake

^ If they're doing that now my bank account is gonna be sad


----------



## Jonathan20022

Just placed my order for my first Carvin, it's gonna be absolutely insane. DC7X 



ChrisH said:


> It's about HV 250 (+/-20) on the Vickers scale. To give you an idea, stainless should be around HV 300 (+/-20) while nickel frets depending on who you go through will be between HV 170-200.



Chris thanks for the help today, excited to own my first Carvin!


----------



## Jack Secret

WE'VE SHIPPED, PEOPLE! TUESDAY IS V-DAY! well...V220 day. 

I am camping out front of my house at 9AM EST with my HH2 and little Marshall 15w amp and I'm playing all day until that big brown truck arrives. I am NOT missing this delivery. This isn't the most money I ever spent on a guitar but there is, for some reason, the most emotional attachment. I'm a mix of nerves and excitement. Feels like THIS is the guitar I've been working towards owning after 30 years of playing. Much as I love the DC600 black limba and all the ordeals with that, this V220 should have been my birthday guitar to myself. 

Next year's birthday, we going all out again on something. I've got enough guitars now that 1 a year and made balls out seems to be the best way to go. 

I can just buy pedals to keep me entertained in the downtime. I love pedals.


----------



## HighGain510

Alberto7 said:


> ^ Carvin Custom Top 24 Private Stock?
> 
> Seriously though, if Carvin are doing this now...  I love you, Carvin.
> 
> EDIT: now that I remember, Jeff was talking on FB about the paint shop having a love/hate relationship with him.





Jake said:


> ^ If they're doing that now my bank account is gonna be sad



You realize this isn't the first time they've done a PRS-esque "fade" finish, right?  They've been doing them for a while now, I think some of the first were like 1-2 years ago!  That one looks great, the top is very nice and the gradation is better than some of the first efforts.


----------



## Garnoch

Yeah, to my knowledge, the fade is something they will do on request. It just isn't a shown option.


----------



## Jake

HighGain510 said:


> You realize this isn't the first time they've done a PRS-esque "fade" finish, right?  They've been doing them for a while now, I think some of the first were like 1-2 years ago!  That one looks great, the top is very nice and the gradation is better than some of the first efforts.


This is news to me and I am sad about not knowing until now


----------



## Jack Secret

While we wait the new V220, I took new pics of my first V220 - THE KOA-SPLOSION!

Enjoy!


----------



## ferret

You need to drop that bad boy in the Koa thread someone started up.


----------



## Alberto7

HighGain510 said:


> You realize this isn't the first time they've done a PRS-esque "fade" finish, right?  They've been doing them for a while now, I think some of the first were like 1-2 years ago!  That one looks great, the top is very nice and the gradation is better than some of the first efforts.



I had no idea they'd been doing this! It's possible that I've seen pictures of those guitars, but that my terrible memory couple with the zillions of CT6's I've seen has completely forgotten about them. Either way, I'm glad to hear they're still doing it and that they're getting better at it.


----------



## Alberto7

Trans-white, trans-black, and 5-way (blade) switch now a thing.  So is a faded Kiesel-treated fretboard, but I wasn't a fan of that.

FB vid:
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=840347022656329

EDIT: was trans-white something Carvin did in the past? It seems there are comments celebrating that the option "is back." Also, apparently only available on request (option 50, though it does not void the 10-day return. It only carries a restocking fee with it).


----------



## Jack Secret

Sad news to report. There has been a delay in my delivery....

BANDITS! Yes. bandits. They've taken over the train! They want the gold bouillon that was being transported from California! Then...then...um...ALIENS! Yes. Aliens. They took the gold to make space fuel for their armada...and....uh...um...............

Ok, it's just a train derailment. I have no updates beyond stating train derailment. Don't know where. Don't know if it's my train that derailed or another train. It's UPS. Making the customer aware of happenings is not their top concern.

I could hope but I think I got moved to tomorrow. We shall see.


----------



## ke7mix

Hey y'all, Waiting on my DC400 to build. Whats the process for changing a build?


----------



## Jack Secret

ke7mix said:


> Hey y'all, Waiting on my DC400 to build. Whats the process for changing a build?



What do you mean by "changing"?

If you mean you want to change a spec, there's a charge for that if they've already started building it. Usually $50 plus whatever the change is if there was a charge for that. If you ordered the day before and wanted to change something I doubt they'd charge for it.


----------



## Veritech Zero

It's happening! I finally have gotten around to putting in my order for a Carvin HH2!

Went with satin nightburst on quilt with a thin blackburst edge, and I literally may explode with excitement before it gets to me.


----------



## ChrisH

Veritech Zero said:


> It's happening! I finally have gotten around to putting in my order for a Carvin HH2!
> 
> Went with satin nightburst on quilt with a thin blackburst edge, and I literally may explode with excitement before it gets to me.



Ah, so you post on here eh? Glad to help you out with your order man!


----------



## Jack Secret

YEAH BABY!


----------



## Alberto7

^ I think I'll cry with you once you get it. The only difference will be that you'll be crying with excitement, whereas I'll be crying with jealousy.

EDIT: just saw that you already have it. I'm already crying.


----------



## mbardu

Had not posted it before, but I made a quick demo of the new carvin piezo system on carved tops. 
Please pardon my playing and stress, this was literally the first time ever I recorded myself on video, let alone posted it online 

*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jDbgsEYyIE*


----------



## Taylord

NGD for the 6er coming soon!


----------



## Alberto7

^ D'aawww you got her a little sister!  I'd love to have my DC727 to have a threesome with the twins.


----------



## Jack Secret

Gonna have 2 new V220's builds happen. 

One will be the aforementioned swamp ash body/lava quilt top/reverse pointy/gold hardware including the frets.

Second will be alder in jet black/reverse pointy/gold hardware including the frets. This one will be the thrashing guitar. The one I won't worry so much about bringing it out into the world and it getting bumped or whatever. 

I'm actually in the process of clearing out my final large video game collection (Sega Dreamcast) and my comic toys/statues on the 'bay. 

From now on, the Guitarcade will strictly be a guitar room. I'll have 4 magnificent V220's, 5 awesome DC600's, 4 super carved tops, a sweet HH2, wonderful X54 bass and my homemade 540PII plus way too many amps and effect pedals.  I wish I could say I'd be done then but Carvin will come up with something I'll want. maybe that elusive 7 string V220.


----------



## soliloquy

someone refinished their carvin










used to be this





source: 
Carvin.com BBS :: View topic - Finally Refinished my Ebay DC400. Natural Pyrography!


----------



## dimitrio

Wow, thats one of the most sick refinishes! Very cool!


----------



## Jack Secret

Went back to 1 build but it's a hell of a build...

V220 
Floyd w/ locking nut 
Black limba neck & body (dark & streaky) 
Clear gloss body 
Deep Lava Quilt Top 
Neck covered by top wood 
5 piece neck black limba/white limba stripes 
Clear satin back of neck 
Reverse pointy headstock 
Quilted headstock matches finish 
Ebony board (streaky) 
No inlays (just how I like it) 
GOLD med-jumbo frets 
14 inch radius 
M22SD Bridge / M22N neck black pickups 
Gold hardware 
Large white Carvin logo 
Jack inside the V body


----------



## Tommy

Just a little teaser before I do a NGD and review. I'm just so excited I had to show pics.


----------



## Alberto7

My insides are screaming looking at that koa top, holy Jesucristo. That one got posted on Carvin's Facebook page, no? Or was it Jeff's? It's insane! Congrats dude! Can't wait for your NGD!


----------



## pushpull7

Tommy said:


> Just a little teaser before I do a NGD and review. I'm just so excited I had to show pics.



omfgjcslpudge!


----------



## Cloudy

Best koa top ive seen far carvin so far.


----------



## snowblind56

Here is my Carvin Bolt. It has a **gasp** solid finish! I replaced the pickups with Duncan JB Jr's, but they will probably be getting swapped for a white pickguard with Hot Rails. Swamp Ash body and a rosewood neck = win on a strat-like hardtail guitar.


----------



## ihunda

mbardu said:


> Had not posted it before, but I made a quick demo of the new carvin piezo system on carved tops.
> Please pardon my playing and stress, this was literally the first time ever I recorded myself on video, let alone posted it online



^i had no idea you were French!


----------



## Jack Secret

Yay for some blue mist metallic. Haven't gotten around to getting that color on a Carvin yet.


----------



## pushpull7

Tommy said:


> Just a little teaser before I do a NGD and review. I'm just so excited I had to show pics.



Are you ever going to NGD this so that we know the specs?


----------



## loqtrall

Seems I got really lucky with the top on my C66. 5A Quilted Maple, pretty much a 10-top.


----------



## mbardu

Looks better than 10-top IMO.
More like 'Wood Library' grade if you were to take the PRS scale.


----------



## loqtrall

mbardu said:


> More like 'Wood Library' grade if you were to take the PRS scale.



I forgot about those. It does look sort of similar to some Wood Library models I've seen. It's absolutely incredible looking in person. I'm almost tempted to order another (It's my first Carvin, thinking I'd order another soon with a few specs changed). I just hope my insatiable GAS won't have me trying to trade this in a week. So far, it's a great guitar for the money.


----------



## Tyler

What type of finish was that loqtrall? Umber?


----------



## Cloudy

It was only a matter of time before the delicious 5a quilt porn left chat and reached here 

stunning piece man.


----------



## loqtrall

Tyler said:


> What type of finish was that loqtrall? Umber?



Deep Umber Quilt is correct.


----------



## pushpull7

loqtrall said:


> Seems I got really lucky with the top on my C66. 5A Quilted Maple, pretty much a 10-top.



Me likey! I'm really curious about that trem too.


----------



## loqtrall

pushpull7 said:


> Me likey! I'm really curious about that trem too.



Wilkenson trem. I've been told Carvin uses the cheaper model and it has tuning stability problems, but even if that's true I've had no problems with it so far. Even if I do, the upgrade is easy and cheap.


----------



## loqtrall

Oh yeah, here's a cheap looking but necessary flash shot of the top. It's the only way I could get the quilt to "pop" with the poor lighting in my house.


----------



## pushpull7

So here's the long story short: I tried my first 7 (an ibby) and had to send it back because of all kinds of issues (yes it was a prestige) but LOVED having a 7 for that short period of time. But the ibby was 48mm at the nut and a Carvin is a bout a half mm wider....and being thicker (even with the thinning option) I'm worried I won't like it (the neck profile was PERFECT for my small hands/fingers on the ibby) 

Logic suggests (  ) that I should just go for a DC600 with the hipshot and forget about the 7. But I'm in a bit of conflict as IF I liked the neck profile, I'd much rather shell for the 7 than just another 6. Sure, a Carvin won't be "just another" anything, but maybe you understand what I'm saying. Price is kosher either way, it's not much more than a 6. 

Needed to get it off my chest.....


----------



## jerm

^I got a DC700 with the thinner neck profile option and the neck is extremely comfortable. It's not as thin as an Ibanez Wizard neck but it's definitely more comfortable. 

I would go to a store and try out as many 7's as you can of different brands. That'll tell you if you're comfortable with 7's. Ibanez are probably the thinnest you'll find unless you find a EBMM (which I believe have paper thin necks also).


----------



## Jack Secret

Pure f**king sex.


----------



## Jack Secret

Didn't mention but after my lava quilt top V220 comes in, I'm getting one in this zebrawood. It's gorgeous.


----------



## Alberto7

I really don't like that bass... :/ it's weird. But then again, I'm not a huge fan of zebrawood either, nor a fan of the overall color scheme. I do find that fretboard to be very tasty though.


----------



## TRENCHLORD

That bass looks 70's all the way. Like something Larry from 3's Company might play .
I hate it, but it's great to have as many options as possible and Carvin is sure coming through with that lately.


----------



## pushpull7

I dunno, I wouldn't throw it out of bed


----------



## pushpull7

If it were up to me though, I'd rather have the zebrawood w/o the bevels.


----------



## Jack Secret

Decided to do my zebrawood top V220 since I prob won't see the V220 lava quilt until early January. Be posting specs once finalized and order in. 

Hint- using a body wood I have never used on a Carvin custom before. This leaves out swamp ash, mahogany, koa, black limba & alder.


----------



## Toejam

Jack Secret said:


> Decided to do my zebrawood top V220 since I prob won't see the V220 lava quilt until early January. Be posting specs once finalized and order in.
> 
> Hint- using a body wood I have never used on a Carvin custom before. This leaves out swamp ash, mahogany, koa, black limba & alder.


Is it maple?


----------



## Jack Secret

Nope, not maple. My order is in so I can reveal the goodness...

V220
Floyd w/ locking nut
Zebrawood top
Dark Walnut body
Clear Gloss Finish
5 piece walnut neck with 2/ maple stripes
Clear Satin Finish on back of neck
Reverse Pointed Angled 6s Headstock
Zebrawood headstock
Headstock to match body finish
Ebony fingerboard black (super streaky)
No top inlays
Gold med-jumbo frets
14in fretboard radius
M22SD Bridge pickup
M22N Neck pickup
Black Pickups
Gold hardware
Large white logo
Move jack to inside of V body

Sure to be another winner from Carvin.


----------



## Veritech Zero

So jelly, the wait for mine is already killing me haha


----------



## Toejam

Jack Secret said:


> Nope, not maple. My order is in so I can reveal the goodness...
> 
> V220
> Floyd w/ locking nut
> Zebrawood top
> Dark Walnut body
> Clear Gloss Finish
> 5 piece walnut neck with 2/ maple stripes
> Clear Satin Finish on back of neck
> Reverse Pointed Angled 6s Headstock
> Zebrawood headstock
> Headstock to match body finish
> Ebony fingerboard black (super streaky)
> No top inlays
> Gold med-jumbo frets
> 14in fretboard radius
> M22SD Bridge pickup
> M22N Neck pickup
> Black Pickups
> Gold hardware
> Large white logo
> Move jack to inside of V body
> 
> Sure to be another winner from Carvin.


Sweet! Sounds like it will be another winner, indeed.


----------



## Dust_to_Dust

Could Carvin do a Baritone DC600? There's no option on the online builder, so is it a 'call in option'? Or as I'm from the UK, via a dealer?


----------



## Toejam

Dust_to_Dust said:


> Could Carvin do a Baritone DC600? There's no option on the online builder, so is it a 'call in option'? Or as I'm from the UK, via a dealer?


No, the only baritones with 27" scale are on the 7-string (DC7X) or the 8-string DC00.


----------



## Dust_to_Dust

Damn, I'm guessing they're 25.5? Either way, I wish they could give you a rough quote over the internet :')


----------



## Toejam

25" scale (like PRS uses) for the DC600 (and all other 6-string neck-thru models and set-neck models). 
I think 25.5" is just for the Holdsworth, regular 7-string and the bolt-on models.


----------



## NickS

25" scale on everything except what you mentioned, and the DC7X and DC800 are 27". I wish they would come out with more extended scales though, including the much anticipated CT7 27" model


----------



## ferret

Dust_to_Dust said:


> Damn, I'm guessing they're 25.5? Either way, I wish they could give you a rough quote over the internet :')



Not sure what you mean, at the end the builder will give you the exact price?


----------



## NickS

I think he's still asking/assuming that you can get them to do a longer scale, and how much it would cost. Not gonna happen

I love Carvin, and I already have 5 of them!! But there are just some things that they (almost for sure) will not do.


----------



## Dust_to_Dust

The builder said "CarvinWorld does not sell direct to your country. However, you can place your order through your local dealer. Use the buttons below to print your specs, and to find a dealer in your country" So no price was shown. I'm in the UK so I'd have to go through a Carvin Dealer.


----------



## Chris O

The more of those tops I see coming out of Carvins shop, the less and less I'm impressed by the stuff that PRS turns out. Some of their "10 Top" stuff looks pretty run-of-the-mill when you see the day-to-day coming from Carvin. For $100, you can hand pick an AMAZING top, and still have a superb quality instrument for far under $2K. 

Kudos!


----------



## ferret

Chris O said:


> The more of those tops I see coming out of Carvins shop, the less and less I'm impressed by the stuff that PRS turns out. Some of their "10 Top" stuff looks pretty run-of-the-mill when you see the day-to-day coming from Carvin. For $100, you can hand pick an AMAZING top, and still have a superb quality instrument for far under $2K.
> 
> Kudos!



PRS does have a LOT of really great finishes and colors on those tops though, that Carvin won't take on.... Like.... HighGain's Rainforest Glow...  Yes... I tried...


----------



## jerm

ferret said:


> PRS does have a LOT of really great finishes and colors on those tops though, that Carvin won't take on.... Like.... HighGain's Rainforest Glow...  Yes... I tried...


Carvin will do custom finishes for extra.....


----------



## ferret

jerm said:


> Carvin will do custom finishes for extra.....



I know, but they have limits. Trust me, I've already asked.


----------



## rYche

They sure will do custom finishes


----------



## Jack Secret

Oh yes....the zebrawood order is in (as my card has been charged the 20% deposit) and I got a nice super streaky ebony board. I got asked on the Carvin forums why not zebrawood on the board as well but I just can't quit ebony. 

So with luck - dark walnut/zebrawood top end of November & black limba/lava quilt top late December/early January. They didn't have the 5 piece neck I wanted ready when I ordered but was told the planks just got finished being made. 

I'll have 4 badass v220's all with unique looks and amazing sounds. I'll just keep plucking on the burl nightburst for now.


----------



## wannabguitarist

So Kiesel Racing Green is actually the color of Jeff's/the family's race car. I had no idea before . They were out running a kickass Triumph Bug-eye Sprite with a turbocharged rotary at the local SCCA solo2 event last weekend. Nice people too from my very brief interaction


----------



## SnowfaLL

Jack Secret said:


> Oh yes....the zebrawood order is in (as my card has been charged the 20% deposit) and I got a nice super streaky ebony board. I got asked on the Carvin forums why not zebrawood on the board as well but I just can't quit ebony.
> 
> So with luck - dark walnut/zebrawood top end of November & black limba/lava quilt top late December/early January. They didn't have the 5 piece neck I wanted ready when I ordered but was told the planks just got finished being made.
> 
> I'll have 4 badass v220's all with unique looks and amazing sounds. I'll just keep plucking on the burl nightburst for now.



thats quite a bit of V220's haha. You should look for a vintage white or red one with a kahler, ala Marty Friedman.. I regret not buying the local one 2 years ago that was $400 CAD =[


----------



## Jack Secret

NickCormier said:


> thats quite a bit of V220's haha. You should look for a vintage white or red one with a kahler, ala Marty Friedman.. I regret not buying the local one 2 years ago that was $400 CAD =[



Nah, I don't buy used anymore. I got lucky with one Carvin CT624 koa top that the guy basically ordered it did it the way I would order it (except gloss on the neck instead of satin). Couldn't turn it down for $1000.


----------



## HighGain510

ferret said:


> PRS does have a LOT of really great finishes and colors on those tops though, that Carvin won't take on.... *Like.... HighGain's Rainforest Glow...*  Yes... I tried...





jerm said:


> Carvin will do custom finishes for extra.....





ferret said:


> I know, but they have limits. Trust me, I've already asked.



To be fair, that's going to be a REALLY hard finish to do right, so I can't say I blame Jeff on that one!  It would certainly be an easy one to do WRONG, that's for sure!  That being said, the new trans-white finish looks amazing so I think when I order my HH2 I'm going to throw that finish on it!  SO HOT!


----------



## mbardu

Just arrived: a companion for my c66

I'd say the flame doesn't look too shabby


----------



## Jack Secret

Carvin also won't do sparkle finishes anymore. Gums up the equipment, gets all over the floor, looks like a fairy shat all over the place!


----------



## Le Jeff

Jack Secret said:


> Carvin also won't do sparkle finishes anymore. Gums up the equipment, gets all over the floor, looks like a fairy shat all over the place!


 Well shit. I'm only about a year away from being able to realistically afford a Carvin and they pull my favorite finish? Gorram.


----------



## ihunda

Just received this, NGD coming soon....


----------



## Dust_to_Dust

So, I put in a quote with a dealer in the UK, and it came to around £1300, which is a lot less than I was expecting

Specs as follows:

DC600-
Right Handed Fixed Bridge

SS - String Saver Saddles for FT6 Bridge 
BBE - Natural Body Binding
NWAL - Walnut Neck & Body
CS - Satin Matte Finish

FDK - Deep Black Flame
5WI - 5-Piece Walnut Neck w/ 2 White Limba Stripes 
CSN - Clear Satin Finish Back Of Neck (Natural Wood)
-H33 - 6-String Pointed Headstock 3+3 (Standard) 
FPH - Flamed Maple Headstock Matches Body Colour
-
EFB - Black Ebony Fingerboard (No Streaking)
-DI - Dot Inlays (Standard)
STF - Stainless Med-Jumbo Frets .048" H .103" W
-R14 - 14in Fretboard Radius (Standard)
-C22B - C22B Bridge Pickup (Standard)
-C22J - C22J Neck Pickup (Standard)
-400 - Black Coils w/ Black Bezels (Standard)
BC - Black Hardware
-46 - Elixir 1046E Light Gauge .010 - .046 (Standard)
WL - White Logo
IVN - Ivory Graph Tech TUSQ Nut
SL - Dunlop Straplocks
HC10 - Black Tolex Hardshell Guitar Case


If my I can sell my 7string Esp, then I'm definitely getting this!


----------



## Jack Secret

ihunda said:


> Just received this, NGD coming soon....



Blue denim w/ blackburst? mmmmmmm......


----------



## ChrisH

Hey guys, just to let you know that there is now an official Carvin thread in the dealer's section! Any questions or requests can be directed to there as both Mike Jones and myself will be posting on there. We will also be posting photos and announcements!


----------



## pushpull7

I'm just JONESING for a jet black "satin" finished DC600 but just on top, the rest natural.

I'm wondering if satin finishing is ok on natural wood


----------



## Ibzzus

Any owners of the V3 and 212V Cabinet? Carvin.com : V3-212 100W 3 CHANNEL ALL-TUBE SHORT STACK W/ LED BACKLIGHTING

My main priority when buying gear is to have as much versatility as possible, because I listen to all kinds of music. I read in a review that the V3 can play 'anything you throw at it' and that the 212V cab has speakers that are v30 knock-offs. That all sounds great but does it Djent?


----------



## Dust_to_Dust

pushpull7 said:


> I'm just JONESING for a jet black "satin" finished DC600 but just on top, the rest natural.
> 
> I'm wondering if satin finishing is ok on natural wood



That's what I've put down on my quote, except its a Flame Maple Black top, the rest natural satin


----------



## Pikka Bird

pushpull7 said:


> I'm just JONESING for a jet black "satin" finished DC600 but just on top, the rest natural.
> 
> I'm wondering if satin finishing is ok on natural wood



Well...


----------



## Kobalt

This is...obnoxiously tempting. Only option subjected to change would be the finish; not sure about tung oil, looks good feels good but I've heard things about it not sealing in the wood which can over time lead to wood warping? At least, that's what I read a couple years ago, can't remember where... Could all be wrong.


Base Model	Options	Quantity	Price
DC600H
Right Handed
Hipshot Bridge 1	$899.00

MT - Plain Maple Top	$120.00
WAL - Maple Neck & Walnut Body	$50.00
TF - Tung-Oiled Satin Neck & Body	$0.00
5MW - 5-Piece Maple Neck w/ 2 Walnut Stripes	$120.00
-H33 - 6-String Pointed Headstock 3+3 (Standard)	$0.00
-PH - Headstock To Match Body Finish (Standard)	$0.00
EFB - Ebony Fingerboard Black (No Streaking)	$30.00
NIN - No Top Inlays - Side Dots Only	$0.00
STJF - Stainless Jumbo Frets .055" H .110" W	$40.00
-R14 - 14in Fretboard Radius (Standard)	$0.00
-C22B - C22B Bridge Pickup (Standard)	$0.00
-C22J - C22J Neck Pickup (Standard)	$0.00
-400 - Black Pickups (Standard)	$0.00
BC - Black Hardware	$30.00
-46 - Elixir 1046E Light Gauge .010 - .046 (Standard)	$0.00
BL - Black Logo	$0.00
SL - Dunlop Straplocks	$10.00
HC10 - Black Tolex Hardshell Guitar Case	$90.00

Custom Shop Total: $1,389.00
Options Discount: $-100.00
Optional Custom Shop Down Payment: $277.80

Sub-Total	$1,289.00


----------



## pushpull7

Pikka Bird said:


> Well...



Thanks for that dude! That is really close to what I was thinking about.

That jet black with the satin matte/natural body looks even better than I imagined.


----------



## Pikka Bird

pushpull7 said:


> Thanks for that dude! That is really close to what I was thinking about.
> 
> That jet black with the satin matte/natural body looks even better than I imagined.



Yeah, I was thinking it might be something like that, just a different number of strings. Of course I didn't know what woods you wanted, but now you know they'll do it.


----------



## pushpull7

Yeah, but now I might want a 7


----------



## Jack Secret

WAT?


----------



## Chris O

rYche said:


> They sure will do custom finishes



That's a standard Lizardburst, isn't it?

Here's my Deep Aquaburst:


----------



## Veritech Zero

So Carvin posted a picture of my guitar!


----------



## Dusty Chalk




----------



## jackblack

Can anyone offer insight on how the Holdsworth models (the one's with headstocks) do under high-gain? Looking at buying a new axe, and Carvin sixers are soooo tempting but I feel like I could really use that extra .5 in as I'm used to 27+ in and I'd likely be tuning down a full step. Thanks!


----------



## Chris O

Nice color choice VZ!! I saw that one come out on their FB feed, and immediately went "WOW".


----------



## mbardu

jackblack said:


> Can anyone offer insight on how the Holdsworth models (the one's with headstocks) do under high-gain? Looking at buying a new axe, and Carvin sixers are soooo tempting but I feel like I could really use that extra .5 in as I'm used to 27+ in and I'd likely be tuning down a full step. Thanks!



Not sure about the holdsworth and not sure if you're set on that, but the bolt on models are also 25.5 FYI.


----------



## Nlelith

^^^ Also, current bolts have 22 frets, and there's rumors that 24 fret bolt model will be announced soon (hopefully 25.5 scale)


----------



## shadowlife

That Holdsworth is my favorite one yet!

I wish you could order that guitar with Gibson scale length...


----------



## Jack Secret

shadowlife said:


> That Holdsworth is my favorite one yet!
> 
> I wish you could order that guitar with Gibson scale length...



Well, least you have 4 radii to choose from (12", 14", 16", 20")


----------



## Le Jeff

shadowlife said:


> I wish you could order that guitar with Gibson scale length...


 That's really all that's ever stopped me from ordering a CT - I don't want a 25" scale. If 24.75" becomes available I'll be all over that.


----------



## pushpull7

With all the Carvins being hit out of the park (big time) I'm very VERY worried that the prices are going to increase to where I can't afford the next one


----------



## mbardu

pushpull7 said:


> With all the Carvins being hit out of the park (big time) I'm very VERY worried that the prices are going to increase to where I can't afford the next one



Well they remain good value for the time being, but the prices have already seriously started to increase, that's for sure!


----------



## pushpull7

Still, you can currently get a DC600 with nice upgrades for about 13/1400. 

I really wanted to hold out until the Keisel 6/7's came readily available a pup option and pay the extra charge, but now I'm worried that the guitar itself will go up another couple of hundred just waiting for them.


----------



## Jack Secret

pushpull7 said:


> Still, you can currently get a DC600 with nice upgrades for about 13/1400.



Yes.

Yes you can.


----------



## pushpull7

Maybe I'll option 50 something.


----------



## haffner1

So wish they did fingerboard bindings....


----------



## Zepos16

my bad, baddd bitches.


----------



## Dust_to_Dust

Dayumn, what pickups are in that DC600?


----------



## Zepos16

Dust_to_Dust said:


> Dayumn, what pickups are in that DC600?



Dimarzio Titans


----------



## Dust_to_Dust

I'll definitely have to look into them, they're beautiful in that guitar


----------



## Veritech Zero

It's finally here!!! Already posted a NGD, and as soon as the weather clears up here I'll get some better pictures


----------



## ihunda

Another Carvin for daddy....


----------



## Dusty Chalk

_(heavy breathing)_


----------



## Jack Secret

Hopefully I'll be hearing about the V220 Zebrawood top/walnut body this week. At the very least a pic on Facebook. Hoping it looks as awesome glossed as that Vanquish bass did. Then we wait for December for the V220 lava quilt maple top/black limba body.


----------



## Church2224

How has the Carvin quality been in the recent months/ year or so?

The two I owned were not that great, and I remember early last year some people, like ELQ, were getting some defected models. 

I like a lot of what they do, and I love Jeff Keisel's passion for his company, but I want to know my money is going to be well spent.


----------



## soliloquy

Church2224 said:


> How has the Carvin quality been in the recent months/ year or so?
> 
> The two I owned were not that great, and I remember early last year some people, like ELQ, were getting some defected models.
> 
> I like a lot of what they do, and I love Jeff Keisel's passion for his company, but I want to know my money is going to be well spent.



i've been following carvin for the last maybe 4 years. in my experience, they have produced about 1 guitar with MAJOR defect that was corrected by them right away (neck came off) and a small handful of other random mishaps like the color not what the customer requested, which too they corrected. and again, colors vary with screen settings and lights as well. 

i'd had 2 carvins about 2 years apart from each other, and their quality has kicked up a notch. my CS6m was superb and i was super happy with it. then the ct424 came about and its quality was far superior, which was hard to do with the cs6m. 

its fairly consistent i'd say. 

order something with normal colors so if you dont like it, you can always return it within 10 days


----------



## Church2224

Sounds like a plan. I am just looking for a DC700 with standard colors. The Born of Osiris Models have been killing me.


----------



## mbardu

Church2224 said:


> How has the Carvin quality been in the recent months/ year or so?
> 
> The two I owned were not that great, and I remember early last year some people, like ELQ, were getting some defected models.
> 
> I like a lot of what they do, and I love Jeff Keisel's passion for his company, but I want to know my money is going to be well spent.



What kind of defected models are you referring to?
Not sure what the problems would have been.

They did have some mishaps with specs last year, with options missed or done backwards, but they usually come through with customer service. That seems also sorted out by now.


----------



## Church2224

mbardu said:


> What kind of defected models are you referring to?
> Not sure what the problems would have been.
> 
> They did have some mishaps with specs last year, with options missed or done backwards, but they usually come through with customer service. That seems also sorted out by now.



-Stained finish color seeping into non finished/ clear satin areas on the back of the neck to make the finish work look sloppy and uneven, mostly common on the headstock where the finished maple headstock met a clear sating back of neck
-Rough fret ends when first getting the guitars
-Cracked Ebony fretboards after maybe 6 months 
-When they had the option to see your five piece neck through the top, the woods were not aligned correctly so the pattern was off center and was an eye sore
-Not receiving parts such as the tremolo bar, strap locks and even the Allen wrenches when receiving the guitar
-On my tung oiled neck Carvin, the five piece maple/walnut neck had uneven areas where the the woods had separated and felt uneven when playing it. 

Basically a lot of small things that added up. When I got them I lived in a college town where we had a Suhr and PRS dealer and I just felt my Carvins were underwhelming so I started looking elsewhere. I know a lot of people love Carvin but I need a guitar that stands out.


----------



## Jack Secret

Soooooooon!


----------



## Toejam

Oooh, looking good so far!


----------



## Jack Secret

YEAH!


----------



## Toejam

That is so cool! Streaky ebony board?


----------



## Jack Secret

Toejam said:


> That is so cool! Streaky ebony board?




Yup. Not sure how super streaky yet but we'll see soon. Plus, first guitar with GOLD frets.


----------



## pushpull7

Hmmmmmmmm, might consider streaky myself.


----------



## Jack Secret

We have shipment.

Sadly, between the weekend & the Thanksgiving holiday in the USA, she will not arrive until Friday of next week, the 28th.


----------



## Jack Secret

Too dark in the Guitarcade to snap decent pics but will do in the morning. She is ....ing gorgeous in person. The walnut body is just breathtaking. I have not known what true walnut was before this day. The zebra top & streaky ebony board are nice too.


----------



## Garnoch

Adding to the thread.......


----------



## lava

That is sweet. What is that beveled edge/contour option called? Has anybody ever seen that done on an HH2? I'd also love to see a burst top with the bevel too.


----------



## soliloquy

lava said:


> That is sweet. What is that beveled edge/contour option called? Has anybody ever seen that done on an HH2? I'd also love to see a burst top with the bevel too.



they wont do that on the HH2. the beveled top is only done on very few shapes. its a new feature that was used on a guitar guitar and bass all together.


----------



## Samark

Carvin are killing it! Anyone see their pics of the day and the video of Jason Becker's maple board with the number inlays?


----------



## Jack Secret

No posts in 2 weeks plus? Outrage. Here's one Jeff Kiesel is bringing to January NAMM.


----------



## TimothyLeary

i think those stripes on the body ruin it.


----------



## Jack Secret

V220 lava quilt update! WE HAVE PIC!


----------



## Toejam

Oh, that lava is another winner!


----------



## Dusty Chalk

You know, as much as I love hybrid colours (blurple/indigo/violet, blue-green/green-blue, wine/merlot/red-purple), red orange is one I've never taken to. Alas.


----------



## Ibzzus

Got my DC800 coming to Pakistan with my friends RG8. Yes, Misha converted us to the blue


----------



## mbardu

TimothyLeary said:


> i think those stripes on the body ruin it.



I love striped - 5-piece necks


----------



## lava

Ibzzus said:


> Got my DC800 coming to Pakistan with my friends RG8. Yes, Misha converted us to the blue



Sweet! Correct me if I'm wrong, but my guess is you don't see too many 8-strings in Pakistan?


----------



## Ibzzus

lava said:


> Sweet! Correct me if I'm wrong, but my guess is you don't see too many 8-strings in Pakistan?



Well, since the music scene is so small, everyone knows everyone. I only know 1 other guy with an 8 (besides my friend getting that RG8) and 4 guys with 7s. I am fairly certain I am the only guy with a Carvin guitar here. So yeah, one of the few people here with an 8 and proud


----------



## Pikka Bird

TimothyLeary said:


> i think those stripes on the body ruin it.



In a way, yeah... They should've aged those too, because it kinda clashes with the rustic overall look it has.


----------



## Jack Secret

I think Jeff did a one off just to show off a bunch of the new options like the zebrawood board, antique ash treatment & ebony block inlays.


----------



## ferret

I've seen a lot of different 5-pc neck showing with the antique ash wings. Jeff seems to really dig it, but like some others here, it feels too... clashy to me. For me, either all ash on top, or treat the neck too so the effect goes across fully.


----------



## atticus1088

Just saw this on Jeff's Instagram.

LOVE the horn bevel!!! Was hoping once I saw the Xccelerator bass that this could become an option for the DC6/7/8 line.
Looks like it could be a future option, or maybe a one off for a Kiesel.


----------



## narad

Killer!


----------



## Dusty Chalk




----------



## Snarpaasi

atticus1088 said:


> Just saw this on Jeff's Instagram.
> 
> LOVE the horn bevel!!! Was hoping once I saw the Xccelerator bass that this could become an option for the DC6/7/8 line.
> Looks like it could be a future option, or maybe a one off for a Kiesel.



Somehow reminds me of Mayones Duvell, in a good way. Love the top and apparently has satin finish, which has become my favourite since my first Carvin.


----------



## TimothyLeary

wrong topic.


----------



## curlyvice

Anyone know if it would be possible to option 50 a single pickup on any of the CT or CS models?


----------



## mbardu

curlyvice said:


> Anyone know if it would be possible to option 50 a single pickup on any of the CT or CS models?



It is not possible - or at least it was not possible up until a few months ago.

The construction with super deep neck tenon make it difficult to do in a clean way, so the only real way is to do aftermarket.


----------



## Omzig

Just thought id add a few pics of this DC400 i picked up last week

1989 trans yellow flame with a jackson "style" headstock maple/maple/maple/ebony





​ 




​
Lovely guitar & my first Carvin (im sure it wont be the last) 

A few More Pic's HERE

Had to replace the Org Floyd arm/collar with the Schaller (which is a straight drop in replacement) 

shame Carvin have such a limited (and somewhat overpriced) Uk presence,id love a JB 200 but the 1-1 $-£ + rate that UK retailers expect kind take the shine off ordering one.....


----------



## Toejam

Omzig said:


> Just thought id add a few pics of this DC400 i picked up last week
> 
> 1989 trans yellow flame with a jackson "style" headstock maple/maple/maple/ebony
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> Lovely guitar & my first Carvin (im sure it wont be the last)
> 
> A few More Pic's HERE
> 
> Had to replace the Org Floyd arm/collar with the Schaller (which is a straight drop in replacement)
> 
> shame Carvin have such a limited (and somewhat overpriced) Uk presence,id love a JB 200 but the 1-1 $-£ + rate that UK retailers expect kind take the shine off ordering one.....



Very nice! But wouldn't that be a DC145 with the middle pickup and active electronics? The DC400 I thought always had abalone inlays. Maybe they had those options in the '80s. Either way, Vintage Yellow is awesome!


----------



## 0 Xero 0

This was posted today on Facebook. I think it's an interesting move to give them more leeway to tailor the instruments to customers wants while providing an increase in quality and relevance in the market. 
Mark and Jeff announce re-branding...

Also, this is beyond stunning!


----------



## GBH14

0 Xero 0 said:


> This was posted today on Facebook. I think it's an interesting move to give them more leeway to tailor the instruments to customers wants while providing an increase in quality and relevance in the market.
> Mark and Jeff announce re-branding...
> 
> Also, this is beyond stunning!



Holy S**t!!!!


----------



## ExtendedRange

jackblack said:


> Can anyone offer insight on how the Holdsworth models (the one's with headstocks) do under high-gain? Looking at buying a new axe, and Carvin sixers are soooo tempting but I feel like I could really use that extra .5 in as I'm used to 27+ in and I'd likely be tuning down a full step. Thanks!



Mark recorded a lot of early Haunted Shores material on a Holdsworth.


----------



## pel

Tyler said:


> She has arrived



one the the most beautifull and original wood grain I've seen.


----------



## 0 Xero 0

Chris H. posted this in the Carvin NAMM thread. International players prepare your wallets!
International Sales News


----------



## GBH14

0 Xero 0 said:


> Chris H. posted this in the Carvin NAMM thread. International players prepare your wallets!
> International Sales News



"the bigger news is what all the international guys have been begging us for years to happen will now finally happen"

What is this about?? Carvin selling direct to international buyers rather than going through a distributor? If so how does that benefit us other than being able to speak to carvin directly to order? The price via a dealer was the same as the US plus the shipping and import charges so it wont make it any cheaper.


----------



## Alex6534

Does anyone know if soapbar pickups will fit in the carvin pickup cavities? I got mine with a Lundgren m7 but I'm not liking it tonally, looking at EMG 57/66, Dimarzio and Bare Knuckle.


----------



## jerm

Alex6534 said:


> Does anyone know if soapbar pickups will fit in the carvin pickup cavities? I got mine with a Lundgren m7 but I'm not liking it tonally, looking at EMG 57/66, Dimarzio and Bare Knuckle.


if you have the active routes they should....


----------



## ferret

GBH14 said:


> The price via a dealer was the same as the US plus the shipping and import charges so it wont make it any cheaper.



Not sure how you're figuring this. There was a dealer cut in there, otherwise why would the dealer even be handling your sale with nothing in it for them? 

You're right that shipping and import charges still apply, but a dealer cut has been removed.


----------



## zilla

does this mean they'll stop raping Canadians on shipping costs?


----------



## Cloudy

zilla said:


> does this mean they'll stop raping Canadians on shipping costs?



Doubt it, no one has love for us :'(


----------



## RV350ALSCYTHE

The only thing we Canadians can do for now is have them shipped to an american address such as Home - My American Address They charge $3 bucks to hold anything shipped to them for weeks. I'm sure similar businesses are found around most border crossings.

Cross the border and import the gear personally. You will still pay the tax on the good, but you'll save the UPS/FEDEX Brokerage Rape charges, plus whatever is tacked on by sub-couriers who take over these deliveries once outside of normal UPS/FEDEX delivery zones. UPS doesn't even come to my city anymore, not to mention charges an extra $120 to ship to the Canadian side of my town  ($30 to Michigan side...$150 to Ontario side when shipping from the US...it is literally less than 5 miles difference)

I'm lucky and live in a border town with Michigan, so the travel cost is minimal when importing.

The import charges from the us are nothing compared to poland, holy .... what a shitty at-your-door surprise expense!


----------



## GBH14

ferret said:


> Not sure how you're figuring this. There was a dealer cut in there, otherwise why would the dealer even be handling your sale with nothing in it for them?
> 
> You're right that shipping and import charges still apply, but a dealer cut has been removed.



I see your point but when I spec'd out a guitar through the dealer they came back with a figure. I then went onto the US site and spec'd the exact same thing to get a US price. I then converted that to British sterling and calculated the import tax. Both we within a few £ of each other.

I don't know how that works, as like you say - what's in it for the dealer?


----------



## ferret

GBH14 said:


> I see your point but when I spec'd out a guitar through the dealer they came back with a figure. I then went onto the US site and spec'd the exact same thing to get a US price. I then converted that to British sterling and calculated the import tax. Both we within a few £ of each other.
> 
> I don't know how that works, as like you say - what's in it for the dealer?



My best guess is that Carvin is eating part of the dealer cut. Everything Carvin sells is profit. I don't know that margin, but let's pretend for sake of argument it's 50%.

Sell a $1000 guitar, make $500 profit.

To continue making up numbers... So internationally, they sell a $1000 guitar... plus import fees and taxes (Let's call it $1000), plus dealer cut. So it ends up $2000 for you. $2000 becomes $1000 after fees. Dealer gets $200, so it's $800. It cost $500 to make, so Carvin gets $300. In this made up scenario, they still make money internationally, but less than domestic.

So let's take the dealer out. Guitar is $1000. Import is $1000. Carvin has an option here. They can try to get their $500 cut just like domestic... Or they can continue accepting $300 on an international sale.. That means $200 that previously went to the dealer can go towards the import fees. So now they can charge you $1800, and still make the $300 they did before.

EVERY number in this is made up, but just hopefully is a decent illustration on how prices in EU could drop based on the dealer being out of the way.

I also do not know how import/customs fees might change based on something being shipped direct to a consumer rather than first to a dealer who takes a cut then re-sales it to the consumer. There could be additional savings due to that.


----------



## feraledge

Does anyone know how much a dyed fretboard runs?


----------



## ferret

I've heard a starting price of $200.


----------



## Nlelith

GBH14 said:


> The price via a dealer was the same as the US plus the shipping and import charges so it wont make it any cheaper.





GBH14 said:


> I then went onto the US site and spec'd the exact same thing to get a US price. I then converted that to British sterling and calculated the import tax. Both we within a few £ of each other.


I don't know about British dealers, but when I ordered my Carvin through freight-forwarder rather than dealer, I saved more than $500


----------



## ProphetOfHatred

Joining the Carvin club in 6-8 weeks  super excited.


----------



## GBH14

I'm really looking forward to more info on the international changes.

Will it make is cheaper?
Will it give us some sort of money back guarantee like the US get?
How are returns etc dealt with for faults? Its not cheap or easy to return a guitar to the US and the dealer dealt with all that before I believe.

Can't wait to hear more. There so much stuff I want from Carvin!


----------



## feraledge

I'm feeling insane, what is this headstock style called?


----------



## ChubbyEwok

feraledge said:


> I'm feeling insane, what is this headstock style called?


Its the 7 string standard headstock!


----------



## jerm

^that's the standard headstock.


----------



## feraledge

Is this not a 6 string option or only on certain models? Someone had a NGD relatively recently with a reversed 6 string one, but I couldn't find it.


----------



## ferret

There is a 2+4 headstock for six strings, but no 4+2. Rumor mill claims legal issues with EBMM. No idea if it's true.


----------



## feraledge

ferret said:


> There is a 2+4 headstock for six strings, but no 4+2. Rumor mill claims legal issues with EBMM. No idea if it's true.



I swear I saw a 3+3 like this. Funny about EBMM since I remember it looking very Mayones-esque.


----------



## electriceye

X-Mann said:


> Did you go to the Winter NAMM show this year?
> 
> Do you want to experience a little bit of what happened at the Carvin (aka Kiesel) Guitars booth?
> 
> Do you want to see ALL the new models?
> 
> How about meeting Greg Howe & Neil Zaza?
> 
> My name is "X" & I went to the Winter NAMM show.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click here if you want to see my adventure........
> 
> Carvin.com BBS :: View topic - Welcome to the Kiesel NAMM Show - 2015 (X)
> 
> As many of you guys already know, Carvin brought THE HEAT this year & they totally OWNED the 2015 show!
> 
> Peace! X-Mann (aka Chen)



I'm telling you, man, I am in LOVE with that Greg Howe sig. It's just perfection.


----------



## Dooky

The Greg Howe model is indeed freakin' amazing


----------



## dimitrio

so 24 fret bolt-on - done, long scale 7s - done year ago. I like the tendency) Really hope for fanned frets next year


----------



## ferret

Back in the waiting room officially!






Extra 1-2 weeks of build time because 25.5" scale is still being programmed into the CNC. Important note for anyone interested: Candy Tangerine is a metallic opt50 color but does NOT void the 10-day return. It carries a $200 restocking fee however.


----------



## pushpull7

Nice!

I want the Howe. I'm terrified to know what it will cost


----------



## ferret

$1599 I'm pretty sure it was.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

GBH14 said:


> I see your point but when I spec'd out a guitar through the dealer they came back with a figure. I then went onto the US site and spec'd the exact same thing to get a US price. I then converted that to British sterling and calculated the import tax. Both we within a few £ of each other.



Maybe that's how it was for the UK, but there's a _HUGE_ difference between US direct prices and South Korean dealer prices, and the additional shipping and customs wouldn't even come close to closing the gap 

I've been pretty vocal about my displeasure with the lack of direct distribution for international customers, so now that they're making it an option, I almost feel a little obligated to get one .


----------



## electriceye

pushpull7 said:


> Nice!
> 
> I want the Howe. I'm terrified to know what it will cost



Why would you be terrified? I don't think I've ever seen any of their sig models being grossly over-priced. They're not Charvel/Jackson. Hell, take a look at the JB sig. You can throw all sorts of options at those and barely scratch $2k.

Regardless, pricing starts at $1599, which seems pretty damn reasonable to me. I think I saw a pic of the price sheet in this thread or somewhere similar, but I was able to find this pic where you can sort of see the same thing:


----------



## Hollowway

X-Mann said:


> Did you go to the Winter NAMM show this year?
> 
> Do you want to experience a little bit of what happened at the Carvin (aka Kiesel) Guitars booth?
> 
> Do you want to see ALL the new models?
> 
> How about meeting Greg Howe & Neil Zaza?
> 
> My name is "X" & I went to the Winter NAMM show.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click here if you want to see my adventure........
> 
> Carvin.com BBS :: View topic - Welcome to the Kiesel NAMM Show - 2015 (X)
> 
> As many of you guys already know, Carvin brought THE HEAT this year & they totally OWNED the 2015 show!
> 
> Peace! X-Mann (aka Chen)



Chen, I've been following your thread over at the bbs and I loved it! I basically went to X-NAMM!


----------



## ceiling_fan

1599.00 + 50 = 1599.00? Interesting.


----------



## ferret

ceiling_fan said:


> 1599.00 + 50 = 1599.00? Interesting.



It's missing a line. There is a $100 option discount applied to every order that isn't listed there. Basically first $100 of options are free.


----------



## pushpull7

The only thing is I'm not sure that I want that trem. I've already got a strat with H/S/S pups that stays in tune really well. Of course it's not quite the looker that is! Stunning looks.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

Looooooooooooooooool. Looks like people are already starting to advertise their "older" Carvins as "Pre-Kiesel." Well, one person is. You can probably be sure more will follow, though.

For Sale - Carvin PB5 - Pre-Kiesel! Orange and Price drop! | TalkBass.com


----------



## stuglue

Carvin question, I recently acquired my first DC700 and have to say i love the neck, very flat radius and really easy to play. Not quite the same feel as my Ibanez in terms of the neck shape but still a great player.
The downside, I bought a set of dimarzio replacement pickups not realising that the pickup cavity for the carvin isn't a standard size. The carvin pickups measure 33mm wide whereas the Dimarzio's are 36mm. Do any of the pickup manufacturers make pickups that fit the Carvin cavity?


----------



## Nlelith

New Carvins have an industry standard pickup routes (Starting from 2013 or so, IIRC), so if your Carvin is new one, DiMarzios will fit, but if it's used/build before the routes were changed, then you'll have to do some routing on guitar or file down pickup base plates to fit them in. I think there's no aftermarket pickups that will fit without doing that on older Carvins.


----------



## pel

FYI, all new models are now on their website and available for ordering.


----------



## Louis Cypher

pel said:


> FYI, all new models are now on their website and available for ordering.



Not on the UK version.....


----------



## ferret

Louis Cypher said:


> Not on the UK version.....



Unfortunately international folks can't get to the US page until April. You can call in though and they will take order direct.


----------



## Louis Cypher

ferret said:


> Unfortunately international folks can't get to the US page until April. You can call in though and they will take order direct.



Cheers mate 
really want the JB24.....


----------



## Louis Cypher

Update for UK (and I guess EU) buyers 
I asked about ordering the JB24 Numbers guitar....



soundunlimited.co.uk said:


> From: Rich Turner [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: 06 February 2015
> To: Richard Wilson
> Subject: Re: Carvin Jason Becker Numbers Guitar Availability
> 
> Thank you very much for your recent enquiries in to Carvin Guitars. You may be aware, Carvin has announced that it has split in to two companies with Carvin Audio and Amplifiers being separate from the Carvin Guitar side. Jeff and Mark Kiesel are now operating Carvin and Kiesel Guitars.
> 
> As part of this change they will be supplying direct from the USA under the new company which is effective immediately. This will change how you buy as you will now pay in USD and also have to pay Duty, Shipping and VAT on your purchase. We have been thrilled with the quality of Carvin Guitars and know, with absolute certainty, you will be 100% happy with your purchase.
> 
> If you could direct any of your enquiries to [email protected] and they will help you through the next stages.


----------



## cwhitey2

I was bored and speced out a new Carvin/Kiesel custom.

GAS attack


----------



## Dust_to_Dust

Does that mean it'll eventually cost more for us in the EU to get a Carvin/Kiesel?


----------



## ferret

Dust_to_Dust said:


> Does that mean it'll eventually cost more for us in the EU to get a Carvin/Kiesel?



It should, in theory, ultimately cost you less. VAT, import fees and duties, etc, was all being paid for you by the dealer, who happily passed the cost on to you I'm sure. Plus whatever cut they got from being the middle man.

In theory.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Buying directly from them as opposed to through a dealer will be cheaper, if you consider that's what makes Carvin/Kiesel so cheap to begin with.

To sum it up, dealers have to order/pay Carvin, they pay the import fees and taxes, and then still have to make a profit on top of that. Buying direct eliminates the need for a dealer to make profit so all you pay is the price of the guitar + shipping/taxes. It ends up being quite a bit cheaper if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## Dust_to_Dust

I hope it gets a bit cheaper, I had a quote of £1300 for a DC600 which wasn't too bad, but I wouldn't want to pay much more haha


----------



## ferret

Dust_to_Dust said:


> I hope it gets a bit cheaper, I had a quote of £1300 for a DC600 which wasn't too bad, but I wouldn't want to pay much more haha



If you post the specs, assuming nothing opt 50, we can run it through the US builder and see what the US price would be for comparison.


----------



## Dust_to_Dust

I think this was about it:



SS - String Saver Saddles for FT6 Bridge 

NWAL - Walnut Neck & Body 

-CG - Clear Gloss Finish (Standard) MIGHT be considering Satin body but..

FDK - Deep Black Flame 

5LM - 5-Piece Black Limba Neck w/ 2 Maple Stripes 

CSN - Clear Satin Finish Back Of Neck (Natural Wood) 

-H33 - 6-String Pointed Headstock 3+3 (Standard) 

FPH - Flamed Maple Headstock Matches Body Color 

FT - Bookmatched 4A Flamed Maple Top

 EFB - Black Ebony Fingerboard (No Streaking) 

-DI - Dot Inlays (Standard) 

STF - Stainless Med-Jumbo Frets .048" H .103" W 

-R14 - 14in Fretboard Radius (Standard) 

-C22B - C22B Bridge Pickup (Standard) 

-C22J - C22J Neck Pickup (Standard) 

-400 - Black Coils w/ Black Bezels (Standard) 

G - Gold Hardware 

-46 - Elixir 1046E Light Gauge .010 - .046 (Standard) 

WL - White Logo 

IVN - Ivory Graph Tech TUSQ Nut 

SL - Dunlop Straplocks 

HC10 - Black Tolex Hardshell Guitar Case


With a Hipshot bridge + Kiesel pickups (neither of which show up in the options for me)


cheers


----------



## Jake

Did that for you or close.

NWAL - Walnut Neck & Body $100.00  -
CG - Clear Gloss Finish (Standard) $0.00 
FDK - Deep Black Flame $250.00 
5LM - 5-Piece Black Limba Neck w/ 2 Maple Stripes $200.00
CSN - Clear Satin Finish Back Of Neck (Natural Wood) $70.00 
-H33 - 6-String Pointed Headstock 3+3 (Standard) $0.00
FPH - Flamed Maple Headstock Matches Body Finish $50.00
EFB - Ebony Fingerboard Black (No Streaking) $30.00 
-DI - Dot Inlays (Standard) $0.00 
STF - Stainless Med-Jumbo Frets .048" H .103" W $40.00
-R14 - 14in Fretboard Radius (Standard) $0.00 
-C22B - C22B Bridge Pickup (Standard) $0.00 
-C22J - C22J Neck Pickup (Standard) $0.00 
-400 - Black Pickups (Standard) $0.00 G 
- Gold Hardware $50.00 
 -46 - Elixir 1046E Light Gauge .010 - .046 (Standard) $0.00
WL - White Logo $0.00 
SL - Dunlop Straplocks $10.00 
IVN - Ivory Graph Tech TUSQ Nut $5.00 
HC10 - Black Tolex Hardshell Guitar Case $90.00 
Custom Shop Total: $1,744.00 
Options Discount: $-100.00
Total: $1644.00


----------



## ceiling_fan

edit: ninja'd


----------



## Dust_to_Dust

That comes to £1078.50, not bad at all! I guess Kiesel pickups will up the price when they're available? Don't they do Hipshot bridges on them? I saw someone state on carvinbbs that they do


----------



## Jake

Dust_to_Dust said:


> That comes to £1078.50, not bad at all! I guess Kiesel pickups will up the price when they're available? Don't they do Hipshot bridges on them? I saw someone state on carvinbbs that they do


Yes hipshot is an additional $50


----------



## Dust_to_Dust

Jake said:


> Yes hipshot is an additional $50



That's an extra £32.80 so, brill.

I still don't know what finish to go for man, I love satin guitars, but I hate it when just one part goes shiny


----------



## TedEH

I'm thinking about getting an X64 bass, and I really like the walnut top they have as one of the examples on the website, but that top doesn't seem to be in the builder. Anyone have a rough idea what that option normally costs? I did email to ask, just waiting on an answer. The text under the photo says it's the "WT" option, and I prefer the look of that one than "figured claro" (FW).


----------



## ferret

I believe I saw Kiesel pickups listed at a $20 upcharge each in one of the builders the other day.

So now you got an idea of the US price, would just need to figure out the VAT and import cost.


----------



## ferret

TedEH said:


> I'm thinking about getting an X64 bass, and I really like the walnut top they have as one of the examples on the website, but that top doesn't seem to be in the builder. Anyone have a rough idea what that option normally costs? I did email to ask, just waiting on an answer. The text under the photo says it's the "WT" option, and I prefer the look of that one than "figured claro" (FW).



They've said that the builder is basically their slimmed down selection of options that they feel handles most common builds. It's not everything by a long shot. Call it in seems to be the motto. They should start putting that in their facebook tag lines.

Not sure why WT is missing from builders though, it used to be there.


----------



## GBH14

Dust_to_Dust said:


> That comes to £1078.50, not bad at all! I guess Kiesel pickups will up the price when they're available? Don't they do Hipshot bridges on them? I saw someone state on carvinbbs that they do



Plus shipping, plus duty, plus VAT... that £1078 then turns into about £1500...


----------



## Louis Cypher

basically imports now direct from Carvin your looking at 

Guitar+Shipping+Insurance=Delivery Total
Then
Delivery Total+(approx) 23%= UK Landed Total inc VAT & Duty

Its really important to bare in mind that the UK VAT & Duty is caluclated not on the item price but the total INCLUDING shipping and Insurance, total gip they do it like that but important to add to your costs and I would guess that as your buying direct from Carvin negotiation on the quoted customs value will not be possible as duty and vat based on the declared value on the paper work


----------



## Dust_to_Dust

Awh man, it seems like the dealer route would be cheaper as that was £1300 delivered


----------



## ferret

Dust_to_Dust said:


> Awh man, it seems like the dealer route would be cheaper as that was £1300 delivered



Something about that just doesn't seem right. The dealer has to make a cut. The dealer had to pay shipping and import too.

Did that £1300 dealer price include VAT/sales tax?

At this point though I'm gonna recommend calling ChrisH up, and asking exactly how the international shipping and such is being done.


----------



## Dust_to_Dust

ferret said:


> Something about that just doesn't seem right. The dealer has to make a cut. The dealer had to pay shipping and import too.
> 
> Did that £1300 dealer price include VAT/sales tax?
> 
> At this point though I'm gonna recommend calling ChrisH up, and asking exactly how the international shipping and such is being done.



That's all the dealer told me, delivered so. I had two different quotes from two different dealers so.


----------



## Louis Cypher

ferret said:


> Something about that just doesn't seem right. The dealer has to make a cut. The dealer had to pay shipping and import too.
> 
> Did that £1300 dealer price include VAT/sales tax?
> 
> At this point though I'm gonna recommend calling ChrisH up, and asking exactly how the international shipping and such is being done.



Don't forget the dealer is buying at US Trade price not US retail like any of us would have to, so any duty or VAT for the import would be at the US Trade price not the US Retail price so £1300 is probably accurate, even more so if you factor in bulk deals, trade promos etc etc


----------



## Nlelith

Do guys from Europe always have to pay import tax? I mean, where I live, I only have to pay it if shipped items cost more than 1000 EUR. And you also have VAT on top of that... I'm glad I'm not in Europe.


----------



## Louis Cypher

Nlelith said:


> Do guys from Europe always have to pay import tax? I mean, where I live, I only have to pay it if shipped items cost more than 1000 EUR. And you also have VAT on top of that... I'm glad I'm not in Europe.



Dunno bout the rest of Europe but here in the UK if the item your importing from outside the EU is worth £390 or less then you don't pay any duty. Anything over that then you do. Anything shipped form within the EU is exempt from VAT & Duty. 

Just had a reply from Chris Hong at Kiesel Guitars re importing the JB24 Numbers guitar. They are custom orders so be a wait time of 8 to 10 weeks and price of $1659 + approx $150 shipping. Hardshell case options are available at additional cost. 

So for import to the UK looking at following in VAT & Duty on top:


http://www.dutycalculator.com said:


> Total customs value:	£1180.56
> 
> This is the amount that customs values your import at
> - Duty:	£43.68
> - VAT:	£244.85
> 
> Total import duty & taxes due:	£288.53
> This is the amount that needs to be paid to customs
> 
> Total landed cost:	£1469.09
> This is the total cost of importing, including product, shipping, insurance and import duty & taxes at exchange rate of 1 GBP = 1.52 USD



TBH for a USA Custom Carvin JB model, I am pretty fcuking happy with that as a UK price!


----------



## GBH14

Louis Cypher said:


> TBH for a USA Custom Carvin JB model, I am pretty fcuking happy with that as a UK price!



They are good prices for what your getting, its just the hassle of long distance returns that always puts me off pulling the trigger. No company puts out 100% perfect guitars and I'd hate to be one of the few that has an issue and then have to deal with returns to the US.

That and the fact that its a bit of a gamble in my eyes. I love the look and love what I read about Carvins but I have never played one and probably never will unless I buy one as they aren't really stocked in shops in the UK. If I ordered one and didn't like it I have no returns option and resale values aren't great. If the 10 day money back policy applied to international orders I would pull the trigger tomorrow!


----------



## Louis Cypher

GBH14 said:


> They are good prices for what your getting, its just the hassle of long distance returns that always puts me off pulling the trigger. No company puts out 100% perfect guitars and I'd hate to be one of the few that has an issue and then have to deal with returns to the US.
> 
> That and the fact that its a bit of a gamble in my eyes. I love the look and love what I read about Carvins but I have never played one and probably never will unless I buy one as they aren't really stocked in shops in the UK. If I ordered one and didn't like it I have no returns option and resale values aren't great. If the 10 day money back policy applied to international orders I would pull the trigger tomorrow!



That is a fair point, if there is issues with the returns policy then of course no matter how much you want it it makes you think again on ordering one. Guess if your no longer shipping internationally to dealers and your expecting Non US customers to order direct then the returns and refund policy needs to be updated


----------



## GBH14

Louis Cypher said:


> That is a fair point, if there is issues with the returns policy then of course no matter how much you want it it makes you think again on ordering one. Guess if your no longer shipping internationally to dealers and your expecting Non US customers to order direct then the returns and refund policy needs to be updated



Yeh exactly. It would be nice to have a bit more 'official' information on how things will work now, but I guess that will happen April 1st when the site switches over etc. 

Before the international direct dealing it would have been easier for returns as you just returned to the dealer in the UK and they sorted everything out. So you would like to think that they would take this into consideration and look at the returns policy for the new system. Otherwise it has just made it slightly easier to order but a lot harder to return.


----------



## curlyvice

Is there a particular reason why the 6 string pointed headstock 3+3 is not available on the TL60? And does anyone know if it would be a feasible option 50?


----------



## Masoo2

May I ask (Might be a dumb question), can you get some of the features found on the GP7X run as standard options/option 50s?

I heard that it was the first time that they implemented many of the features found on the guitars, but I wasn't sure if you could still order the features (IE: California burst, antique ash, gold evo frets, treated board, swamp ash body, etc...)


----------



## lewstherin006

Masoo2 said:


> May I ask (Might be a dumb question), can you get some of the features found on the GP7X run as standard options/option 50s?
> 
> I heard that it was the first time that they implemented many of the features found on the guitars, but I wasn't sure if you could still order the features (IE: California burst, antique ash, gold evo frets, treated board, swamp ash body, etc...)



You can order all of those, just have to phone them in ( i would give chris hong a call, dude is awesome.) You can also get the kiesel pickups too.


----------



## TheManMadeMan

When you want to do the 20% deposit, when do they charge you? I've given them my order and card info. I haven't been charged for the deposit yet, I ordered last week.


----------



## soliloquy

TheManMadeMan said:


> When you want to do the 20% deposit, when do they charge you? I've given them my order and card info. I haven't been charged for the deposit yet, I ordered last week.



they've done it within a couple of hours to a max of 48 hours for me. give em a call?


----------



## shadowlife

Has this been discussed yet?- swirled Carvin:







More pics, and info here:

Swirled Carvin


----------



## ferret

24 minute factory tour with Jeff:


----------



## pushpull7

ferret said:


> 24 minute factory tour with Jeff:




Anyone else feel like ordering another Carvin after seeing this???


----------



## mbardu

pushpull7 said:


> Anyone else feel like ordering another Carvin after seeing this???



yeah but well...I pretty much always constantly feel like ordering another Carvin


----------



## ferret

20:17 on that video... omg... AC375 with custom wood carving... What WHAT WHAT.


----------



## mniel8195

i love it when jeff tells me what i dont want...I have had two plek guitar and they are awesome.


----------



## rYche

i'd say the two Carvin's I own sans plek are near perfect


----------



## ihunda

Jeff: "It takes time but that's the right way to do it"

That's my new sig.


----------



## shadowlife

Question for guys who have ordered from Carvin- when they ship, do they usually require a signature upon delivery? If so, can it be a relative signing for it, or is only the person who's name is on the box who can sign?

Thanks


----------



## PERP

PERP said:


> Mine should be shipped by the end of the week. Here's an up to date picture, as of Friday the 18th.



Forgot to post this after I got it but here she is. Such a phenomenal guitar! Lace Deathbucker in the bridge and Alumitone in the neck.


----------



## BScookies

shadowlife said:


> Question for guys who have ordered from Carvin- when they ship, do they usually require a signature upon delivery? If so, can it be a relative signing for it, or is only the person who's name is on the box who can sign?
> 
> Thanks



They usually do require a signature. I don't think it matters who signs, just so long as someone is there.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

BScookies said:


> They usually do require a signature. I don't think it matters who signs, just so long as someone is there.



Yeah, I've never looked into who delivers for carvin (ups, fedex, etc) but typically just so long as someone is there to accept the package you should be good. I've had neighbors sign for packages when I wasn't home. They usually leave an indication on where they left it and who signed. (Ie: signed be female, left at side door, left on porch, etc.)

I'd try to make sure someone reliable is home to sign for it though. I've had them leave packages with neighbors I didn't even know when I lived in an apartment. Your bf/gf, mom, dad, brother, sister, whatever will all be acceptable.


----------



## shadowlife

Thanks guys, as long as it doesn't have to be me signing, everything is cool.


----------



## aciek_l

Hi Guys,

I'm thinking about getting used Carvin DC127. Here are some pics: Carvin DC 127 SH-1 SH-4 Sperzel (5110846133) - Allegro.pl - Wi
I can have it for about $750 with shipping and case. Ebony fretboard and alder body and neck. 
Condition is quite good, frets were leveled about year ago, but since then the guitar wasn't played much. My only concern is that if I will like it, I will need to sell my Gibson LP Studio... But it isn't hard to find used LP, and now I'm just curious about Carvins and I'm want to try one. :> I wan't something quite versatile for E and DropD tuning with nice cleans, but also for stuff like Iron Maiden. (I have RGA321 for heavier stuff  ) 
So, is it worth 750 bucks? (in Europe/Poland guitars are a bit more expensive than in USA)


----------



## Discoqueen

It wouldn't feel anything like a LP, that's for sure. The pickups might not be the best suited for what you are after, though, but it depends on what models are in there. My Carvin sounds amazing when clean, I've just had to struggle a bit to find pups that would deliver the gain tones I want. I would say it should be comforatable. The thin neck profile and flat fretboard on my 727 makes it a very comforatable guitar (I am used to Gibson's, so I can say I wasn't turned off by anything on the Carvin when coming from Epi's and Gibson's.) 

I would say it is worth it, but I have been wanting a 127 for quite some time!!


----------



## aciek_l

Thanks for your reply! Pickups can always be changed if I didn't like them, so that's not an issue.  
I need to do some more research, but all in all I think I will give it a try. Well, I can always send it to someone else later.


----------



## ThePIGI King

Quick question. When ordering, is there an up-charge for the quilted top, or only an up-charge if you get the top stained? Because when I was on their website I got confused. Thanks.


----------



## ferret

Always an up-charge. Clear versus stained is same price.


----------



## jerm

If you're getting a figured maple top you should just go all out and get the stain that you want


----------



## ThePIGI King

ferret said:


> Always an up-charge. Clear versus stained is same price.



And how much is the upcharge for the quilt? Is it a second upcharge for the stain as well? Or am I completely wrong?


----------



## soliloquy

ThePIGI King said:


> And how much is the upcharge for the quilt? Is it a second upcharge for the stain as well? Or am I completely wrong?



getting a quilt on the guitar is not an upcharge. 
having it finished is an upcharge. 

ie, if you order any flame or quilt or plain maple, it wont charge you anything extra for the guitar. but to stain it (even if its clear coat, its DTS-deep triple set clear) there is an upcharge. it really depends on the model of how much you'll be charge. to stain quilt maple, it will cost you ~$150-400 (model depending). 

now certain finishes are option-50 (not on their website, but can be ordered via phone) may have a higher upcharge. if i'm not mistaken, faded denim blue costs $100+ the standard charge of stain. white-wash may cost more. picture request of a certain finish may also cost more, and cost you the 10 day return policy. 

hope that helps


----------



## ferret

It depends on the model. The standard thickness, for models like SCB and DC, costs $400. It's $400 whether you keep it clear or do a stain like Aqua Burst or Nightburst. The way the builder is setup up, the wood choice and the stain are a single option, such as "Clear Quilt" or "Aqua Burst Quilt". Those options are $400.

For the CT6/CS6, they have a thicker top, but come standard with flamed maple. It's $300 to move from flamed to quilted.

This only applies to standard builder stains. Trans-white and trans-black are call-in only options, and cost $200 ($600 total) and $100 ($500 total) respectively. Faded denims are also call-in only, but I don't know the exact cost.


----------



## pushpull7

It's a big upcharge imho.


----------



## soliloquy

pushpull7 said:


> It's a big upcharge imho.



though i do agree with you as in the end, both flamed and quilted maple are the same thing found on the same tree, thus should have the same price. but at the same time, i also understand that quilt is a form of deformity that doesn't happen as often as flame. same goes for burl. 

even then, i still think the 400 is a pretty hefty upcharge on something that is essentially aesthetic....

though i am no lumber jack and have no knowledge of how any of that works....so my opinion means very little. and as of late, i'm enjoying solid colors over flamed/quilted stuff anyways....


----------



## spudmunkey

ThePIGI King said:


> Quick question. When ordering, is there an up-charge for the quilted top, or only an up-charge if you get the top stained? Because when I was on their website I got confused. Thanks.



Their online builder is a little wonky, because they are still using codes that they've been using for a very very long time that most of their long time factory workers are familiar with&#8230; But with the addition of so many new finishes and woods and models and options over the years, the structure of the builder seems to get a little out of control.

Rest assured that the up charges you are seeing are for the actual wood. Quilted maple just costs more than flame maple, because it's more rare. The upcharge just happens to only be applied in the builder when you select the combination of the wood and the finish...it's not for the finish itself. This is why deep blue quilted maple costs more than the deep blue flamed maple. It's the exact same transparent paint and finishing process&#8230; It's just that it's bundled with two different types of wood. It's really odd, and definitely confuses people who aren't quite familiar with their processes. The funny thing is, quilted maple comes from flat/plain sawn lumber, which gives you a higher yield than flamed maple, which is present in quarter sawn wood. It just so happens that quilted maple is harder to come across in the first place.

Don't even get me started on selecting woods for your 5P neck&#8230; You can tell it that you want a Koa body and maple neck&#8230; And then on the next screen select a black Limba and white Limba neck. How does that make sense?


----------



## Winger

Looks like the floyd rose bridge is recessed on the scb6. If asked, would carvin do the necessary routing for a d-tuna?


----------



## Cloudy

Just got word from Chris on the status of the Jb24s,

Sounds like a lot of them are basically done, they're just waiting on pickups. 

Mine was in the spray booth yesterday getting a nice solid pink finish


----------



## Hollowway

OMG, those numbers guitars are hot! I want one so bad, but I just never play sixxers anymore.


----------



## ThePIGI King

What would the quilt look like with no stain? I've tried looking it up, but all the results are stained tops...I want a natural quilt, so I was trying to calculate a basic price.


----------



## technomancer

Cloudy said:


> Just got word from Chris on the status of the Jb24s,
> 
> Sounds like a lot of them are basically done, they're just waiting on pickups.
> 
> Mine was in the spray booth yesterday getting a nice solid pink finish



So they let you option 50 a different finish? Was it a restock fee or non-returnable?


----------



## mbardu

ThePIGI King said:


> What would the quilt look like with no stain? I've tried looking it up, but all the results are stained tops...I want a natural quilt, so I was trying to calculate a basic price.



Not sure what you mean by 'basic', but in general, as was said above, a clear quilt will not be cheaper than a colored quilt.

If you're (very) lucky, it could look like:


----------



## ThePIGI King

^ But isn't that a clear stain? I'm asking what it would look like if it wasn't stained at all. soliloquy said that even a clear stain was an upcharge, I was wondering what a non-stained at all guitar would look like. Am I understanding incorrectly?


----------



## spudmunkey

ThePIGI King said:


> ^ But isn't that a clear stain? I'm asking what it would look like if it wasn't stained at all. soliloquy said that even a clear stain was an upcharge, I was wondering what a non-stained at all guitar would look like. Am I understanding incorrectly?



Yes, it's an understandable misunderstanding due to how carvin's builder is laid out.

When you build a guitar, first you select the top wood. There are no prices shown...for some reason, instead of showing you how much each top wood costs, they let you pick the top wood, and then on the next screen they tell you how much that wood will cost with whatever finish you chose. *Quilted maple is not a free upgrade*. In fact, when you are selecting a top, there is this fine print just above it:


> For flamed maple and quilted maple tops, you will select the finish color and be shown the pricing on the next page.


 Then, on the next page, it says this:


> Bookmatched 4A Quilted Maple Top Finishes
> You must select one of the finishes below. Move your mouse over each button to see a color sample.


 The builder is wonky here. You can't get clear gloss quilted maple for $0 even though it seems to show it that way. I also don't understand how the builder still allows you to pick "tung oil with clear flamed maple top" when you've selected quilted maple. It would be like a Ford's builder offering you all-wheel-drive for a Mustang.

When you select the "free" clear gloss or clear satin finish, you are just choosing the final clear finish that seals in the the color/paint/stain you select below (Deep Clear, Deep Teal, etc). Once you select clear gloss or clear satin, you MUST select a finish from the list below. That is why the clear and satin clear have no cost...because you then MUST add the $400 Deep Red, or Deep Blue, or etc etc. It's only when you select tung oil as the finish coat, that you cannot combine with a color below, that there is a listed cost.

And yes, "deep" finishes (even "deep clear") are standard on all flamed and quilted maple tops (except tung oil). It used to be standard on just the carved top models and optional extra on others, but now it's standard.


----------



## soliloquy

ThePIGI King said:


> What would the quilt look like with no stain? I've tried looking it up, but all the results are stained tops...I want a natural quilt, so I was trying to calculate a basic price.



if price is such a huge factor to you, i'd recommend the CT/CS 4/424. reason being, they still use the same top wood, MAPLE. the only difference is you're paying 250-400ish dollars less. can you still put transparent finishes on them like moss green, orange burst or whatever finishes. some of those finishes will cost you an upcharge or $25ish dollars. but you can also get solids that would be free. this one i got a few years ago was in solid classic white. it has the same features as the ct624 (plus the option 50 ebony headstock and push pull phase switch for the volume knob). it still shows the natural binding. 






and this is not my guitar, but heres another example of the cs4 in a see-through finish


----------



## gfactor

Today I decided I need a Holdsworth. Such a classier headless than the Vader IMO.


----------



## HighGain510

gfactor said:


> Today I decided I need a Holdsworth. Such a classier headless than the Vader IMO.



I don't know that I'd say "classier"... maybe the word you were looking for was "tinier" perhaps?  I've owned several of the HH guitars and the Vader seems to fix my main gripe about the HH in that the body is so small it almost feels/looks like a toy.  Not sure what is "less classy" about the Vader exactly, it has strat-shaped horns with a similar butt end to the Holdsworth... you can't really prove a Les Paul is "classier" than a Strat, that's all subjective.


----------



## Enselmis

gfactor said:


> Today I decided I need a Holdsworth. Such a classier headless than the Vader IMO.



Same page dude. The estimated completion date for my transparent pearl pink HH2 is today.


----------



## soliloquy

this beauty is not mine. but god damn it its beautiful!


Jake8773 said:


> I decided to Les Paul my CS. I had a set of EMG-X pickups installed as well. This guitar is a total beast but tame with a tone of soul. Hope you like the results...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WAIT FOR IT...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hear that delayed gratification is a lost art in our "EVERYTHING NOW" society. Which is a big part of why I love Carvin. It's the waiting that makes it extra special.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> R U READY....?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Carvin... THANK YOU FOR MAKING DREAMS COME TRUE! YOU GUYS HAVE THE BEST JOBS ON EARTH



source:http://carvinbbs.com/viewtopic.php?t=44787


----------



## GBH14

soliloquy said:


> this beauty is not mine. but god damn it its beautiful!
> 
> 
> source:Carvin.com BBS :: View topic - Like a Moth unto the flame Er, ah... CS6 in Moth green



 That looks amazing! I love how tight and uniform the flame is, and the green looks spot on. I'd be delighted with that!!!


----------



## ferret

Carvin's "new" webpage is now live. Call me a little disappointed, but I'm not seeing anything new about it. The only change appears to be the removal of Pro Audio and Amp products. 

Which are now at:
Professional Audio Amplifiers Mixing Consoles and Loudspeakers &ndash; Carvin Audio 
Carvin Guitar and Bass Amplifiers &ndash; Carvin Amplifiers

Hey look, snazzy new modern webpages (If a tad bit template-y)!


----------



## venrar

Something about the new design is just off for me. It doesn't feel optimized, lots of empty white space on most of the pages, navigation is a bit iffy when you start getting into the product sub menus. I like the general direction though.


----------



## stevexc

Feels very "work in progress". Definitely some margin bugs, "Pro Audio" is getting pushed down onto a second row... unless that's intentional? 

I dunno, overall it looks very amateur-ish.


----------



## ferret

No I agree, they need to work on it, but it at least is new.

Just watched Jeff go on about how their "brand new" webpage was launching, with new look and better navigation, and yet it's the same site, same product categories, same layout, same builder, etc. Only difference is the other products are gone.

I work in IT, sue me for having been somewhat excited about a site launch 



stevexc said:


> "Pro Audio" is getting pushed down onto a second row... unless that's intentional?



I think THAT part is intentional. Pro Audio and Amplification are two separate sites, that second row jumps between them. Could be done better though.


----------



## soliloquy

the official launch date is april 1st. so whatever they have out, i'm pretty sure is just their test/beta version


----------



## spudmunkey

soliloquy said:


> the official launch date is april 1st. so whatever they have out, i'm pretty sure is just their test/beta version



Not sure about that. From Carvin/Kiesel, the only things I ever remember hearing about happening on 4/1 was the IP re-direct-to-carvinworld.com removal .


----------



## pushpull7

soliloquy said:


> the official launch date is april 1st. so whatever they have out, i'm pretty sure is just their test/beta version



April 1st eh?


----------



## Ajb667

pushpull7 said:


> April 1st eh?



Watch them announce fanned frets and everyone think it's fake.


















A man can dream


----------



## Carvinkook

Dude that green just blew me off the screen!


----------



## GBH14

Any other Europeans eagerly awaiting the website redirect removal?!

As soon as I got to work I thought - YES!!!! however... no.

Guess it wont be until this afternoon


----------



## Fathand

GBH14 said:


> Any other Europeans eagerly awaiting the website redirect removal?!
> 
> As soon as I got to work I thought - YES!!!! however... no.
> 
> Guess it wont be until this afternoon



Yes. 

...but still waiting.


----------



## GBH14

My guess will be around 3pm UK time before it goes live.


----------



## GBH14

It's live!


----------



## WillT90

I've been waiting very impatiently since they announced they were going to be removing the redirect etc. I just saw that you (also from Leicester!) said that it has gone live but I am still getting the redirect... do you have a link?


----------



## WillT90

scratch that my browser at work was just sending me back to the old one...I'm in!


----------



## Enselmis

YUP


----------



## Fathand

It's working now.


----------



## GBH14

WillT90 said:


> I've been waiting very impatiently since they announced they were going to be removing the redirect etc. I just saw that you (also from Leicester!) said that it has gone live but I am still getting the redirect... do you have a link?



Where in leicester are you from? I'll have to come and check out uour Carvin once you get it haha, thats the only thing holding me back from getting one, i have never played one!


----------



## Omzig

So picked up my 2nd Carvin a few weeks back a lovely DC127 in candy blue with chrome hardware (no fretboard markers yay)












Order card shows she's a 1996 & the neck is a lot different than the 1989 DC400 i pick up earlier this year (see a few pages back) a bit thinner and more D profiled,had to rub the gloss back to satin though as the straight gloss finish felt far to sticky for me now its a lot more 
A few more pics HERE


----------



## JSanta

Not sure if I ever posted this here, but I bought my first (and only) Carvin back in 2003, and it's been the only guitar I've held onto all these years. Thinking about ordering a Vader now though.


----------



## Cloudy

Enselmis said:


> YUP



DEAR GOD 

I need to see more photos of this guitar, that is one neon ass pink.


----------



## shadowlife

Cloudy said:


> DEAR GOD
> 
> I need to see more photos of this guitar, that is one neon ass pink.



SECONDED


----------



## Omzig

shadowlife said:


> SECONDED



Third.

It look super,but if i was working at Carvin and this dropped on my setup desk id be like WTF!


----------



## Cloudy

Got word from the chris yesterday on the status of my JB24

Its awaiting pups from seymour duncan then its good to go

In the words of the spray booth guy it "hurts to look at"

Promising to hear, the disgusting 1980s hot pink numbers guitar is coming to life


----------



## Thrashman

I'm having the most uncomfortable level of GAS for the GH24 model, yikes.

Does anyone know if it's possible to order one with a direct mount bridge pickup, abalone dot inlays and a single volume knob w/ treble bleed? If so, I'm ....ed.


----------



## pott

I'm having a (so far) harmless GAS attack for a Vader and have a few questions:

1) For the price of a new one (including import taxes etc...) I could get 2 x second hand MusicMan, or a second hand PRS Custom for example. Does the quality compare overall? BUILD QUALITY ONLY of course, since these are all very different guitars.
2) From what I can tell the neck has fairly inoffensive specs, which I like (42.5mm nut-width, and ~20mm at first fret). What's the carve light? 
3) I only just noticed... is it only available neck-through? That's a total deal killer for me  
4) ... nope, that's all I had!

Thanks


----------



## Cloudy

pott said:


> I'm having a (so far) harmless GAS attack for a Vader and have a few questions:
> 
> 1) For the price of a new one (including import taxes etc...) I could get 2 x second hand MusicMan, or a second hand PRS Custom for example. Does the quality compare overall? BUILD QUALITY ONLY of course, since these are all very different guitars.
> 2) From what I can tell the neck has fairly inoffensive specs, which I like (42.5mm nut-width, and ~20mm at first fret). What's the carve light?
> 3) I only just noticed... is it only available neck-through? That's a total deal killer for me
> 4) ... nope, that's all I had!
> 
> Thanks




Quality is definitely up there, they also have a few different neck profiles to fit exactly what you're looking for.

Vader is only neck through, correct. I also would prefer something different like bolt-on but you cant win em all


----------



## Shask

I have noticed almost every neck is listed as having a 1.69" nut width. Do they make any narrower necks?

What is the neck shape like overall? I have read similar to a Jackson SL2H. EDIT: In general, on all their guitars.


----------



## Cloudy

I dont think they make wider/narrower necks but they do have quite a few radius options as well as thin/fat/regular neck profiles available.


----------



## spudmunkey

Thoughts on adding "Kiesel" to the name of the thread? "The Carvin Guitars & Kiesel Guitars Thread"?


----------



## goose_78

Here's my carvin! From what I can gather it was one of their bolt kits. These aren't really your typical kit guitars though. Really great quality components. Whoever put this one together really knew there stuff and it's pretty much effortless to play.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

goose_78 said:


> Here's my carvin! From what I can gather it was one of their bolt kits. These aren't really your typical kit guitars though. Really great quality components. Whoever put this one together really knew there stuff and it's pretty much effortless to play.



As I understand it, their kits are basically just unfinished guitars. They're not the typical sweat shop produced garbage hunks of wood with poorly measured holes that kits are normally made of.

essentially if you slapped it all together out of the box and did a setup, you'd have a quality enough guitar. I want one just because I like custom things, and being in charge of finishing is always nice. I might order one for Christmas.


----------



## spudmunkey

Huh...I do believe that's the first kit I've seen with a Floyd (likely forgetting one, though...)


----------



## Shask

spudmunkey said:


> Huh...I do believe that's the first kit I've seen with a Floyd (likely forgetting one, though...)





Yeah, first one I have seen as well. Looks way better than I thought it would!


----------



## TheWarAgainstTime

Just put in my order for a DC7X   

Specs:
DC7X 7-STRING 27" SCALE PASSIVE 1 _____ _____ 999.00 999.00

NWAL WALNUT NECK/BODY SIDES 1 _____ _____ 100.00 100.00 

MT MAPLE TOP 1 _____ _____ 120.00 120.00 

SFG SURF GREEN 1 _____ _____ .00 .00 

BBE NATURAL BODY BINDING EFFEC 1 _____ _____ 80.00 80.00 

CS CLEAR SATIN MATTE FINISH 1 _____ _____ .00 .00 

RNC REAR BODY/NECK NATURAL CLE 1 _____ _____ 50.00 50.00 

TN TUNG OIL FINISH BACK OF NE 1 _____ _____ 60.00 60.00 

BMF BIRDSEYE MAPLE FRETBOARD 1 _____ _____ 30.00 30.00 

ABD ABALONE DOT INLAYS 1 _____ _____ 20.00 20.00 

STJF STAINLESS STEEL JUMBO FRET 1 _____ _____ 40.00 40.00 

50 no tone,vol in tone positi 1 _____ _____ 100.00 100.00 

BC BLACK CHROME PLATED HARDWA 1 _____ _____ 30.00 30.00 

7SHR 7 S REVERSE STD HEADSTOCK 1 _____ _____ 30.00 30.00

DSLB DROP SHADOW LOGO BLACK 1 _____ _____ 20.00 20.00 

WPB WHITE PEARLIOD TUNER BUTTO 1 _____ _____ 15.00 15.00 

IVN IVORY GRAPH TECH TUSQ NUT 1 _____ _____ 5.00 5.00 

SC10 ULTIMATE SOFT GUITAR CASE 1 _____ _____ 60.00 60.00

ANY GUITAR WITH 50 OPTION IS NON-REFUNDABLE 

NO 10 DAY TRIAL - NO RETURN - NO EXCHANGE 

OPTDISC-100 -100.00 PROMO FOR OPTION D 1 _____ _____ 100.00- 100.00-

-------------

NET ORDER: 1,659.00 

YOUR SALESPERSON IS KEITH IGHNER 

FREIGHT: 29.00 

SALES TAX: .00 

-------------

ORDER TOTAL: 1,688.00

Excitement! This is my second Carvin, and my first time having any option 50's. I'm expecting it to be extremely sexy  Not enough surf green or standard reverse 7 headstocks out there IMO


----------



## ferret

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1578412785775351

Q&A Part 8, 2:40 mark, lefty models for V220, X220, Ultra V confirmed. V220 and Ultra V apparently ready to go.

7:00 minute mark, the question is asked again, Jeff mentions that there will be an extra charge due to having to special order left handed cases though.


----------



## Nlelith

^^^Also, 24 fret bolt-on tele in works.


----------



## Nlelith

doublepost -_-


----------



## TheWarAgainstTime

Bolt-on 7 string confirmed for the future as well


----------



## rapterr15

I just placed an order for an HH2 today. I'm super stoked.

Specs:

Stock woods (Alder/Birch top)
Transluscent Aquaburst finish with gloss finish
Tung oiled 1 piece maple neck.
Stainless steel jumbo frets
Abalone dots
White pickups
Push/pull coil splitter

Total price with shipping was just above $1.4k


----------



## HighGain510

ferret said:


> 7:00 minute mark, the question is asked again, Jeff mentions that there will be an extra charge due to having to special order left handed cases though.



Seems fair enough, those aren't exactly a superstrat or anything where flipping the body in a generic-sized case would work, eh?  If people are actually going to buy them, I would think the slight up-charge on the cases wouldn't be a deal-breaker since they're giving them the models they've asked for and said they would buy.


----------



## ferret

HighGain510 said:


> Seems fair enough, those aren't exactly a superstrat or anything where flipping the body in a generic-sized case would work, eh?  If people are actually going to buy them, I would think the slight up-charge on the cases wouldn't be a deal-breaker since they're giving them the models they've asked for and said they would buy.



A quick read of the CarvinBBS this morning, looks like at least 4 orders already placed


----------



## pott

Wait, how do you get those option 50s?


----------



## ferret

pott said:


> Wait, how do you get those option 50s?



You call in and speak to a sales rep.


----------



## HighGain510

ferret said:


> A quick read of the CarvinBBS this morning, looks like at least 4 orders already placed



Yeah that's what I was saying. I would think something as small as having to pay for the case wouldn't be enough to deter them since they're getting what they wanted. 



pott said:


> Wait, how do you get those option 50s?



You have to call in to speak to a sales associate/customer service rep. You can't custom order anything that's not in the builder on the site, so that leaves a LOT of items you need to ask an actual person about over the phone. Even some standard items that aren't always option 50 require a phone call, so you're better off doing that. I highly recommend Chris Hong, I've bought from several gents at Carvin and while they've all been cool, Chris has been the best to date.


----------



## TheWarAgainstTime

pott said:


> Wait, how do you get those option 50s?



As others have already said, you call in and speak to a sales rep/custom shop expert


----------



## BuckarooBanzai

Quick question...

I placed an order for a CS bass about two weeks ago and have yet to receive any info regarding estimated completion date or anything like that. I also checked a box to pay a 20% deposit and they still charged the full amount to my Carvin card. Should I have received some kind of heads up by now (like the infamous postcard) or are they working on it and I should just sit tight and stop being impatient?


----------



## jerm

TheWarAgainstTime said:


> Bolt-on 7 string confirmed for the future as well


anymore info on this?


----------



## ferret

Mo Jiggity said:


> Quick question...
> 
> I placed an order for a CS bass about two weeks ago and have yet to receive any info regarding estimated completion date or anything like that. I also checked a box to pay a 20% deposit and they still charged the full amount to my Carvin card. Should I have received some kind of heads up by now (like the infamous postcard) or are they working on it and I should just sit tight and stop being impatient?



The infamous postcard is discontinued. Typically, unless you call in to try to get a status, your only indications of process now is seeing the remainder of your build appear on your credit card, or receiving the shipping notification.

I cannot comment on the 20% deposit checkbox resulting in full charge, I would call in about that if its an issue. It might be different when using their Carvin card though.


----------



## Econ

My Vader 6 string. Still not sold on the Kiesel pickups. I'm considering replacing these with a SD Distortion/59 combo or maybe a Pegasus/Sentient combo (not sure if this combo is good for 80's hard rock/metal).


----------



## lewstherin006

Econ said:


> My Vader 6 string. Still not sold on the Kiesel pickups. I'm considering replacing these with a SD Distortion/59 combo or maybe a Pegasus/Sentient combo (not sure if this combo is good for 80's hard rock/metal).



Awesome looking vader! Are the pups too hot for you? I actually really like them, but im starting to see I like hot pups a lot more than I thought I did.


----------



## mr coffee

That's really sharp - Keith told me the recent batch of walnut was looking super nice! Can't wait for my DC800....

-m


----------



## ke7mix

I've run into a dilemma with my DC400, its 8 months old. But I'm having a problem getting any good tones out of it. Through my bandmate's 6534+ boosted it still sounds muddy and boomy, even with fresh strings and some bass rolled out with the active bass control. I have played a few other DC400's and they don't seem to have this problem, and my 80's DC135 sounds great so what am I missing? I tried a bridge pickup swap to a Dimarzio Titan but it Didn't do much good.


----------



## pott

How does it sound acoustically?

The bigger the guitar company, the less time there is to select acoustically-sound (ha... ha...) woods. Quite simply, it could be that the guitar will always sound dull. Or as I wish for you, maybe swapping out the pots/electronics and try to regain some brightness will do it


----------



## mbardu

ke7mix said:


> I've run into a dilemma with my DC400, its 8 months old. But I'm having a problem getting any good tones out of it. Through my bandmate's 6534+ boosted it still sounds muddy and boomy, even with fresh strings and some bass rolled out with the active bass control. I have played a few other DC400's and they don't seem to have this problem, and my 80's DC135 sounds great so what am I missing? I tried a bridge pickup swap to a Dimarzio Titan but it Didn't do much good.



If you open the electronics cavity, you should have a small pot that you can adjust for the electronics output level.
If it is at max, maybe that's why the guitar is too 'boomy' for your tastes?

Or maybe you don't get along with the active module? Are you sure the others you played were DC400 (e.g. with active electronics) and that the active electronics were engaged? Maybe you'd prefer a passive setup. Depending on the version of the DC400, removing the battery or pulling on the push pull can disengage the active mode (note that this doesn't work for all versions - for instance doesn't work on piezo versions).

That said, if you have a problem with 'boomy', I wouldn't exactly advise for a Titan, that's only going to amplify the problem


----------



## jerm

ke7mix said:


> I've run into a dilemma with my DC400, its 8 months old. But I'm having a problem getting any good tones out of it. Through my bandmate's 6534+ boosted it still sounds muddy and boomy, even with fresh strings and some bass rolled out with the active bass control. I have played a few other DC400's and they don't seem to have this problem, and my 80's DC135 sounds great so what am I missing? I tried a bridge pickup swap to a Dimarzio Titan but it Didn't do much good.


check all the wiring/pots and everything.


----------



## littleredguitars2

That lack of curve on the tops is very unappealing to me . I'd end up getting a solid color to cover the whole thing if this was my other option


----------



## mr coffee

ke7mix said:


> I've run into a dilemma with my DC400, its 8 months old. But I'm having a problem getting any good tones out of it. Through my bandmate's 6534+ boosted it still sounds muddy and boomy, even with fresh strings and some bass rolled out with the active bass control. I have played a few other DC400's and they don't seem to have this problem, and my 80's DC135 sounds great so what am I missing? I tried a bridge pickup swap to a Dimarzio Titan but it Didn't do much good.



I haven't had the chance to play through a 6534+ but from what I've gathered from guys whose ears I trust, it's a much warmer and spongier amp than the 6505+, which to me would not seem to be the best option for a guitar that already comes off as muddy and boomy.

-m


----------



## MikeSD

My first Carvin....but not my last Kiesel/Carvin. There will be more! If you like it, here are more pics, if you missed that thread. http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/st...-ngd-carvin-cs6m-option-50-a.html#post4363182








Carvin CS6m Custom Guitar by Mike Murad, on Flickrhttp://www.sevenstring.org//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## ke7mix

I bypassed the Active Electronics and it helped a little. Is there an internal pot for output?


----------



## mbardu

ke7mix said:


> I bypassed the Active Electronics and it helped a little. Is there an internal pot for output?



Yes there should be a small head in the form of a cross that you can adjust with a small screwdriver. It adjusts the gain. Usually white or blue colored.


----------



## MrYakob

Does anyone know if you can opt 50 solid colour finishes? I'm gassing so hard for a vader 6 with a purple sparkle finish along the lines of the Blue Mist metallic.


----------



## mbardu

MrYakob said:


> Does anyone know if you can opt 50 solid colour finishes? I'm gassing so hard for a vader 6 with a purple sparkle finish along the lines of the Blue Mist metallic.



Apparently you can.

Here's a Candy Tangerine:
CarvinGuitars.com BBS :: View topic - NGD: Kiesel V6 25.5" Candy Tangerine


----------



## ferret

Any custom metallic paint is $300 up-charge. Not sure what the charge for non-metallic is, but sounds like you want a metallic anyways.

They won't do heavy flake metallics though.


----------



## soliloquy

heres a sweet video of a carvin 8 stringer in action. cool band. the name is 'to whom it may'


----------



## pushpull7

I love the "produced/on the edge of pop/really cool guitar/bass sound/lofi add-ons/minor key stuff like this 

Also @ video: What's with the drummer? Is he bucking the trend? (like Frank Beard  )


----------



## jeb

I've just ask for a quote for this!! can't wait to see how it will end!!

TL60
Fixed Bridge w/ Strings through Body
Maple neck /swamp ash body
Swamp ash top
ultra thin raw tone finish
Tung oil finish back of the neck
Reverse inline headstock
Maple fingerboard
Kiesel Lithium bridge and neck humbuckers
Cream/Black coils w/ black bezels


----------



## spudmunkey

jeb said:


> Maple neck /swamp ash body
> Swamp ash top
> ultra thin raw tone finish


 
What color? They can do it on bare wood, black, and they said they could do it on some other colors, but didn't inquire further.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> What color? They can do it on bare wood, black, and they said they could do it on some other colors, but didn't inquire further.



I too am interested by which colors are available in "raw-tone"

No rush though...I'll wait for the 24-fret bolt-on for that one


----------



## Greenbrettiscool

Hey sorry to change the subject but I'm ordering a V6 tomarrow, I just wanted to know who out there has a 20" radius and would you recommend getting the option 50 Thin neck profile??? Haven't really found anything on people who have ordered a thinner neck with a 20" so I was just curious if it out make the neck alittle too thin or does the 20" feel pretty darn good by itself?


----------



## HighGain510

Greenbrettiscool said:


> Hey sorry to change the subject but I'm ordering a V6 tomarrow, I just wanted to know who out there has a 20" radius and would you recommend getting the option 50 Thin neck profile??? Haven't really found anything on people who have ordered a thinner neck with a 20" so I was just curious if it out make the neck alittle too thin or does the 20" feel pretty darn good by itself?



My Vader 6 has a 20" radius and I love it. I prefer slightly thicker necks to thinner necks, but the stock carve on a Vader 6 with the 20" radius is perfect. I haven't played the Option 50 Thinner Neck carve on a 6'er so I am not sure how much thinner it is, but I would think if you get along with thinner necks already, the 20" radius won't make it play substantially different from a rounder radius on a skinny neck. Aren't you close to the factory? Maybe see if they have anything close to that combo at the showroom?  I wouldn't sweat that combo though, I'm sure it's fine as long as you've played the thinner profile and liked it.


----------



## jeb

mbardu said:


> I too am interested by which colors are available in "raw-tone"
> 
> No rush though...I'll wait for the 24-fret bolt-on for that one



I asked for black! still waiting for the quote. Anyone know how long it takes to get a quote??


----------



## Greenbrettiscool

HighGain510 said:


> My Vader 6 has a 20" radius and I love it. I prefer slightly thicker necks to thinner necks, but the stock carve on a Vader 6 with the 20" radius is perfect. I haven't played the Option 50 Thinner Neck carve on a 6'er so I am not sure how much thinner it is, but I would think if you get along with thinner necks already, the 20" radius won't make it play substantially different from a rounder radius on a skinny neck. Aren't you close to the factory? Maybe see if they have anything close to that combo at the showroom?  I wouldn't sweat that combo though, I'm sure it's fine as long as you've played the thinner profile and liked it.



Hey thanks for the info dude, yea I am headed over there after work today to finalize the order, the only V6 they have in there to try is the Lizard Burst one on the site, and I was told it is a 14" radius and has alittle thicket neck which I played and cramped my hand alittle, they do have a Lee McKinney axe in there with a 14" with the thinner neck that actually feels reeeeeally good, but I love 20" like on my V7 so I'm torn :/
But yea I'll probably have to just go in and try the closest thing to what I want and go from there like you said. Thanks tho man, if anyone else has any experience with a 20" with thinner neck please let me know how you like it, or if I should just get a 20" with no thin neck opt..


----------



## Greenbrettiscool

^ it's funny too cause I've ordered a ton from them but they have all been 7'a and 8's, I've never ordered a 6 string from Carvin so I don't really want to mess it up.


----------



## HighGain510

Their stock 6'er necks have always been very comfortable to me, not too thin and not too thick (holdsworth H2 necks are a bit on the fatter side but still very comfy), so I'm not sure I'd gel with an even thinner version but as long as it's not like original Wizard carve I'm sure it's probably cool.


----------



## mbardu

Pointy carvins incoming! Both 6 and 7! Who wants em


----------



## mr coffee

They need to offer that in a reverse body style.

-m


----------



## Fathand

That X-shape is so 80's it hurts my mind  ...but in a cool way.


----------



## narad

Man, shame on Kiesel trying to get $10k for this guitar:

https://reverb.com/item/732597-kies...e-insane-spec-d-8-string-eight-string-monster

Spec-wise this is... $3.5k?


----------



## technomancer

narad said:


> Man, shame on Kiesel trying to get $10k for this guitar:
> 
> https://reverb.com/item/732597-kies...e-insane-spec-d-8-string-eight-string-monster
> 
> Spec-wise this is... $3.5k?


----------



## Cloudy

Wow...expected to see that price from a guitar peddler but not from Carvin/Kiesel themselves. Guitar doesn't seem 8k~ more expensive than any other carvin ive seen.


----------



## Axayacatl

mr coffee said:


> They need to offer that in a reverse body style.
> 
> -m



Yes! 








narad said:


> Man, shame on Kiesel trying to get $10k for this guitar:
> 
> https://reverb.com/item/732597-kies...e-insane-spec-d-8-string-eight-string-monster
> 
> Spec-wise this is... $3.5k?



10k + $50 shipping 

Random question. I see a face in the quilt on the back of that guitar. I was wondering if one were to see a face on a 2-piece quilt top and a luthier or artist could use those outlines to draw the face (or any shape you see). I know Dylan at Deamoness uses the quilt or flame to texture a drawing (and it looks amazing) but here I mean basing the drawing on the quilt pattern. Kind of like finding shapes in the clouds. Would that be at all possible?


----------



## narad

Axayacatl said:


> Random question. I see a face in the quilt on the back of that guitar. I was wondering if one were to see a face on a 2-piece quilt top and a luthier or artist could use those outlines to draw the face (or any shape you see). I know Dylan at Deamoness uses the quilt or flame to texture a drawing (and it looks amazing) but here I mean basing the drawing on the quilt pattern. Kind of like finding shapes in the clouds. Would that be at all possible?



Possible, but not advisable. You either paint a face around it, in which case you get a bad face, or you paint a face over it, in which case you didn't need the figuring to base it on. I can't see any appeal.


----------



## JesperX

narad said:


> Man, shame on Kiesel trying to get $10k for this guitar:
> 
> https://reverb.com/item/732597-kies...e-insane-spec-d-8-string-eight-string-monster
> 
> Spec-wise this is... $3.5k?



According to Jeff on FB, it comes to $6500 for those specs but I'm not really sure where all of that goes...


----------



## Cloudy

JesperX said:


> According to Jeff on FB, it comes to $6500 for those specs but I'm not really sure where all of that goes...



and yet he still has it listed for 10k


----------



## Hollowway

Axayacatl said:


> Yes!




I just noticed that you have a sweet asymmetric pointy Flying V if you cut off those upper bout horns. For the guys begging for a 7 sting point V (aka FlyingV on the carvin bbs (I can't remember his name on here)), that would seem like it's possibly right around the corner. Lots of CNC work to be done, but at least some of the stuff is already there.


----------



## Fathand

Greg Howe on his new sig:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAL7yCHDgHw


----------



## littleredguitars2

really not a fan of the new pointys. not my thing.


----------



## Veritech Zero

New X220 reminds me of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM__lPTWThU

And dear god do I need one now.


----------



## Fathand

I had to come here to say that the model builder on Carvinguitars.com has been taking _way_ too much of my time lately. Anyone else noticed that even though you know what you like you still have problems with the sheer scope of options. 

I've pretty much been playing with the HH1 builder the most, though. I've got enough strats/superstrats already, hmmm...


----------



## mbardu

Fathand said:


> I had to come here to say that the model builder on Carvinguitars.com has been taking _way_ too much of my time lately. Anyone else noticed that even though you know what you like you still have problems with the sheer scope of options.
> 
> I've pretty much been playing with the HH1 builder the most, though. I've got enough strats/superstrats already, hmmm...



Any reason for HH vs a Vader ? 
Is it because there are so many Vaders around already? 

I was wondering if the Vaders would cannibalize the holdsworth sales, or if on the other end they would bring more people to headless with their halo effect.


----------



## electriceye

Never likes the X220 at all. Too goofy of a shape. Surprised they bothered to bring it back. If the demand is there, then good for them. I'm still gunning for a Howe.


----------



## Fathand

mbardu said:


> Any reason for HH vs a Vader ?
> Is it because there are so many Vaders around already?
> 
> I was wondering if the Vaders would cannibalize the holdsworth sales, or if on the other end they would bring more people to headless with their halo effect.



The HH model is simply more appealing to me (visually + the super compact size also). I've actually had GAS for the HH model even before the Vaders were announced and their appearance didn't change my preference. 

Nothing wrong with the Vader model, though. I hope they sell well and Carvin gets to do more new things (which IMO they seem to do nowadays pretty well).


----------



## Omzig

Hollowway said:


> I just noticed that you have a sweet asymmetric pointy Flying V if you cut off those upper bout horns. For the guys begging for a 7 sting point V (aka FlyingV on the carvin bbs (I can't remember his name on here)), that would seem like it's possibly right around the corner. Lots of CNC work to be done, but at least some of the stuff is already there.



Nice idea....5min PS inverted + V hack up re-colour





​


----------



## curlyvice

I could see a lot of people around here buying that V. Personally I would love a symmetrical, rounded V but I'm sure the masses would appreciate a pointy Carvin 7-string V.


----------



## Veritech Zero

Omzig said:


> Nice idea....5min PS inverted + V hack up re-colour
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​



No. If Carvin makes any more models that I must have my head might just explode. And my wallet implode.


----------



## Cloudy

Id love a reverse ultra v. ugh.


----------



## mr coffee

That just confirms what I saw in my head - Carvin had it upside down this whole time. I understand the balance thing, but sometimes we make sacrifices in comfort for the sake of aesthetics.

-m


----------



## mbardu

Come to papa...


Edit: Real sized picture:


----------



## mbardu

Some Burl for your viewing pleasure


----------



## Dusty Chalk

The $10K pricetag is like a baby gate, keeping that thing out of the hands of us knuckledraggers. You should only be able to buy that thing if you have $10K to burn. It's just too fogging pretty to play. It should be locked up in a glass case, whose environment is maintained electronically.

I want that pink one, doe. Hawt.


----------



## ferret

Grabbed something from the GIS tonight...  NGD hopefully by end of the week. I'm back to playing a 7!


----------



## mr coffee

Talked to Keith today. They installed nickel frets instead of stainless as ordered and needed to see if I wanted it redone or if nickel was okay. I told him I've got guitars with nickel frets that have been around since the early '80s and they're still playable, so yeah, no big. Estimated completion date was the 17th, he said it will probably be sooner! Excited excited excited excited!!!

-m


----------



## mbardu

mr coffee said:


> Talked to Keith today. They installed nickel frets instead of stainless as ordered and needed to see if I wanted it redone or if nickel was okay. I told him I've got guitars with nickel frets that have been around since the early '80s and they're still playable, so yeah, no big. Estimated completion date was the 17th, he said it will probably be sooner! Excited excited excited excited!!!
> 
> -m



Get them to at least refund you the cost of stainless if not a tad more.


----------



## NeubyWanKaneuby

This is my AC375. It's plain, but I like it.


----------



## mr coffee

mbardu said:


> Get them to at least refund you the cost of stainless if not a tad more.



Oh, I thought that was a given. Yeah, they're refunding the cost of the stainless.

Waaaaaaaaaaaalnuuuuuuuuuut........

-m


----------



## fr4nci2c0

Hey guys I own a Carvin HH2 and went to a friend's house who owns a USA PRS Custom 24. I compared the two side by side. Tonally the prs seemd more modern vintage sounding I thought the cleans sounded great. When driven through a jcm 2000 super lead into a mesa 4x12 still sounded really good, but not modern metal sounding. The timbre of the HH2 is unique. It is very clear and the open strings ring out brighter (than any guitar not just copared to this PRS). I think the 0 fret and no headstock really benefits the sound of the guitar. Now the feel of the PRS and the HH2 are way different. Custom 24 was thinner not like an ibanez s guitar but less than an RG maybe like an RGD. I thought the prs body shape was comfortable. The neck was thin and wide. Thinner than the HH2 and thicker than a wizard ii neck. Fret access was good on the cu24. The neck was glossed, which I do not prefer. The HH2 is very different feeling than any guitar with a headstock. Much lighter and balanced. The instrument seems to be slightly smaller feeling. The neck is not thin. It is a litter thicker than the neck of the jackson DK2M. The fret access is good. Hear is the rub. The HH2's pickups and construction create a unique timbre, which makes it hang with lots of expensive guitars. I would assume a mayones or daemoness would give the HH2 a run for its money. BUT in this case I was comparing the guitar to this cu24. I feel like its cheating having the HH2. Someday there needs to be a HH2 7 string!!


----------



## LUNDY

Just pulled the trigger on a DC127! Now the wait begins.......


----------



## shpence

fr4nci2c0 said:


> Hey guys I own a Carvin HH2 and went to a friend's house who owns a USA PRS Custom 24. I compared the two side by side. Tonally the prs seemd more modern vintage sounding I thought the cleans sounded great. When driven through a jcm 2000 super lead into a mesa 4x12 still sounded really good, but not modern metal sounding. The timbre of the HH2 is unique. It is very clear and the open strings ring out brighter (than any guitar not just copared to this PRS). I think the 0 fret and no headstock really benefits the sound of the guitar. Now the feel of the PRS and the HH2 are way different. Custom 24 was thinner not like an ibanez s guitar but less than an RG maybe like an RGD. I thought the prs body shape was comfortable. The neck was thin and wide. Thinner than the HH2 and thicker than a wizard ii neck. Fret access was good on the cu24. The neck was glossed, which I do not prefer. The HH2 is very different feeling than any guitar with a headstock. Much lighter and balanced. The instrument seems to be slightly smaller feeling. The neck is not thin. It is a litter thicker than the neck of the jackson DK2M. The fret access is good. Hear is the rub. The HH2's pickups and construction create a unique timbre, which makes it hang with lots of expensive guitars. I would assume a mayones or daemoness would give the HH2 a run for its money. BUT in this case I was comparing the guitar to this cu24. I feel like its cheating having the HH2. Someday there needs to be a HH2 7 string!!



There is this: V7 KIESEL VADER SEVEN STRING HEADLESS ELECTRIC GUITAR | CarvinGuitars.com

I have a HH2 with a set of Juggernaut pickups in it and it was a huge step up from the H22T/H22N standard set. It took a while to get used to the headless aspect of it but now it feels strange when I play a normal 6-string.


----------



## TheUnvanquished

Title pretty much says it all. Just wondering if there were any ultra v owners here on sevenstring.org? Thinking about going with a v for my first Carvin. I'm not sure though. I love my cheap jackson rhoads and would love to customize one (albeit one with a body that is reversed) and was just hoping to find some inspiration outside of the few V's shown on Carvin's website under their guitar gallery.


----------



## mr coffee

Got the email today, my DC800 is complete - never saw pics unfortunately. Tomorrow I'll move some funds around and pay out the balance.

-m


----------



## rapterr15

shpence said:


> I have a HH2 with a set of Juggernaut pickups in it and it was a huge step up from the H22T/H22N standard set. It took a while to get used to the headless aspect of it but now it feels strange when I play a normal 6-string.



Hey man, I've got an HH2 on the way, and was wondering if you could comment on the stock H22 pickups. Did you not like them or you were just itching for something different so you swapped em? I've heard they are pretty good pickups, but what do you like more about the juggs? Did you have to do any routing to get the BKP's in or was it a simple swap?


----------



## shpence

rapterr15 said:


> Hey man, I've got an HH2 on the way, and was wondering if you could comment on the stock H22 pickups. Did you not like them or you were just itching for something different so you swapped em? I've heard they are pretty good pickups, but what do you like more about the juggs? Did you have to do any routing to get the BKP's in or was it a simple swap?



I just love BKPs and wanted Juggernauts. The stock pickups were actually pretty good. You'd have to look up the specs but I remember them being a little hotter than I expected. 

I had a tech put in the BKPs and he said the swap wasn't too bad, aside from having to put in after-market pickup rings due to the Carvins having 3 holes on each side, instead of the usual 2.


----------



## Alex6534

This beauty arrived on Monday, NGD soon!


----------



## mbardu

Who likes hardwood back covers?


----------



## ramses

mbardu said:


> Who likes hardwood back covers?



Whoa! How did this happen?


----------



## mbardu

ramses said:


> Whoa! How did this happen?



Check theBay or ask Bob-A-Bouy on the CarvinBBS forum.

Carvin is rumored to come up with official ones...but those are here today


----------



## Fathand

Just out of curiosity - is the floyd that carvin uses a US one or an import (1000/2000-series etc.)? I know they state it's an "original floyd rose", but nowadays that can mean different things.


----------



## kuma

The 6 string Floyds should be a German-made OFR. However, if you're buying used, be aware the was a period where they were having trouble getting the German OFRs shipped, and quietly sent some guitars out with Korean-made Floyds. If it's important to you, be sure to check.

I'm not certain about the 7-string Floyds, I'm sure someone more knowledgeable can comment on that.


----------



## mbardu

Fathand said:


> Just out of curiosity - is the floyd that carvin uses a US one or an import (1000/2000-series etc.)? I know they state it's an "original floyd rose", but nowadays that can mean different things.



On current new guitars, the 6-string are the made in Germany one, while the 7-string are the made in Korea ones.


----------



## Fathand

Thanks, that's good to know about the new ones. Not really worried about used specs.


----------



## 12enoB

Getting my guitar this weekend. Showed up in the pictures on the Kiesel Facebook today!


----------



## TheWarAgainstTime

Looks amazing! They do a great job with the trans-white


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Awesome move and all, but Jesus, that is some BEAUTIFUL woodgrain.


----------



## BuckarooBanzai

ferret said:


> The infamous postcard is discontinued. Typically, unless you call in to try to get a status, your only indications of process now is seeing the remainder of your build appear on your credit card, or receiving the shipping notification.
> 
> I cannot comment on the 20% deposit checkbox resulting in full charge, I would call in about that if its an issue. It might be different when using their Carvin card though.



Just got the shipping notification. Inbound for this Saturday  hopefully it arrives before I have to work.

**EDIT: Specs.

*Custom Shop Instrument Details:*
Base Price: $ 1,099.00
XB75 - Extended Scale 5-String Bass
Right Handed
$ 40.00 - TQB - Translucent Aquaburst
$ 0.00 - -CG - Clear Gloss Finish (Standard)
$ 50.00 - WAL - Maple Neck & Walnut Body
$ 120.00 - 5MW - 5-Piece Maple Neck w/ 2 Walnut Stripes
$ 70.00 - CSN - Clear Satin Finish Back Of Neck (Natural Wood)
$ 0 .00 - -PH - Headstock To Match Body Finish (Standard)
$ 0.00 - -EF - Ebony Fingerboard (Standard)
$ 20.00 - ABD - Abalone Dot Inlays
$ 40.00 - STRF - Stainless Regular Frets .043" H .080" W
$ 0.00 - -R14 - 14in Fretboard Radius (Standard)
$ 30.00 - BC - Black Hardware
$ 20.00 - RH2 - 2 Radiused Humbucker Pickups
$ 0.00 - WL - White Logo
$ 0.00 - -5011 - Dunlop Super Bright Nickel Roundwound .040 .060 .080 .100 .120
$ 90.00 - HC8 - Black Tolex Hardshell Bass Case

I opted not to get a top because I'm actually a fan of how plain walnut looks in a neck-thru instrument. Pics once it arrives. Worst-case scenario it looks absolutely abominable and I eat the $60 shipping to return it...

**EDIT2: Just realized that this thread is in Standard Guitars. This is _the _Carvin thread, though, so whatever.


----------



## rapterr15

My guitar got posted to the Facebook page. I'm so f'in hyped right now. It's even more beautiful than I expected. From my e-mail correspondence with the sales rep, I actually wasn't expecting the new Holdsworth pickup to be installed, because he said only the new bridge pup was ready. I was told both pickups would be the H22's, so the mismatched coils threw me off, but it's all good. I'm pumped to hear the new Kiesel bridge pickup signed off by Allan.


----------



## spudmunkey

Interesting...looks like the new Holdsworth pickups will have both coils with flathead screw poles?


----------



## lewstherin006

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Awesome move and all, but Jesus, that is some BEAUTIFUL woodgrain.




Come on bro, you used my screen shot and didnt even give me [email protected][email protected] 

just joking!!! I dont really give care. Was just shocked to see it in here.


----------



## TheWarAgainstTime

I hot an email earlier today saying my DC7X has shipped  super excited!


----------



## SnowfaLL

My V7 shipped also last night. Only downside, I wont get it before Canada day (its supposed to arrive July 2nd) - so close to having a day off with my new guitar =[ Oh well, thats what weekend is for I suppose.


----------



## Garnoch

My newest Kiesel Edition is almost done. NGD will come at some point just like my others, but for now... Jeff Kiesel posted these on social media so they're low res, buy you'll get the gist.....


----------



## TheWarAgainstTime

SnowfaLL said:


> My V7 shipped also last night. Only downside, I wont get it before Canada day (its supposed to arrive July 2nd) - so close to having a day off with my new guitar =[ Oh well, thats what weekend is for I suppose.



I feel your pain  the UPS site says the expected delivery for my guitar is Wednesday the 1st of July, and just my luck I have the two days _before_ that off of work  

Here's to hoping I can trade a shift or two around and get some quality alone time with my DC7X during the first few days with it


----------



## pel

impressive variety of finishes. love it.


----------



## HUGH JAYNUS

CLASSIC WHITE DC7X BITCHES!







http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/se...onths-late-oops-carvin-dc7x-classy-broad.html


----------



## curlyvice

Let's all take a quick break from our Vader GAS and appreciate some of the other GAS inducing axes the guys at Kiesel/Carvin have been pumping out recently.





















OK that's enough, let's all return to drooling over Vaders.


----------



## Seventhwave

Garnoch said:


> My newest Kiesel Edition is almost done. NGD will come at some point just like my others, but for now... Jeff Kiesel posted these on social media so they're low res, buy you'll get the gist.....



WOW.. looks great!

When is it due?


----------



## Garnoch

Seventhwave said:


> WOW.. looks great!
> 
> When is it due?



Thanks, can't wait. I'm told the low res pics suck, so can't wait to see some better ones and of course in person. With any luck, it will ship tomorrow and I'll have it next week.


----------



## marcwormjim

For any of you H22t fans, my latest email exchange still has no date set for availability of the new Holdsworth-approved Kiesel pickup. For the moment, the only way to get one is to have it included in a build, on a case-by-case basis.


----------



## Garnoch

Seventhwave said:


> WOW.. looks great!
> 
> When is it due?



Well, it's obviously shipping soon now  .......


----------



## Ajb667

I got in on the wired guitarist run for vaders, and it looks like I'm going to have to cancel my order :/
If my DC800 doesn't sell, I'm not going to be able to cover the cost now. I'm super crushed. I was really looking forward to it, and all these gorgeous Vader pics aren't helping lol


----------



## Jack Secret

Ajb667 said:


> I got in on the wired guitarist run for vaders, and it looks like I'm going to have to cancel my order :/
> If my DC800 doesn't sell, I'm not going to be able to cover the cost now. I'm super crushed. I was really looking forward to it, and all these gorgeous Vader pics aren't helping lol




Hope you can do something to get it done. You forfeit your deposit if you cancel.


----------



## justinreagin

Had a Carvin for awhile and didn't bond with it, but still one of the best playing and most stable instruments I have owned!


----------



## mr coffee

Update on my DC800 - I've had my high E snap at the saddle three times in three rehearsals. The last time around, I looked a little closer and there is a visible burr on the saddle. I called this morning and Sam put me through to Albert, the guitar tech, who is sending out a replacement saddle. Talk about good customer service!!!

-m


----------



## cip 123

I so want this to be a Production model!!


----------



## TheWarAgainstTime

Nice! Who was that made for?


----------



## marcwormjim

Someone's going to set it on Jason Becker for a photo-op.


----------



## Shask

cip 123 said:


> I so want this to be a Production model!!



I like the looks of that! If it were only 25.5" scale, 1 5/8" nut width, and had 1 knob, I would be all over it!


----------



## Samark

I believe it is 25.5! ^

I want to see the headstock


----------



## cip 123

The headstock is covered here, but it looks quite big could be inline7 which would be sick!

Also 25.5 would be great too, but they could also offer 27 kinda like the vader has the option for it? I don't know how it works but if they could give the option it'd be great.

But tbh i'd just rather see it in production in any form.


----------



## BigBaldIan

Looks like a JB207C?

Edit: Plus a "new headstock unveiling on Friday", this may well be a 7 in-line (hopefully pointy).


----------



## Soya

Man all these cool new ideas for finishes, people pushing into new territory. Makes my plain top wood DC700 seem so unimaginative in comparison.


----------



## Kobalt

Canadian customers...I was wondering how much in taxes and import fees I would have to expect. Anyone care to share?


----------



## ferret

They are discontinuing the SC90 model. If you were a fan, they're taking orders by phone for one last run.


----------



## jerm

^should be around 15% of the purchase


----------



## Kobalt

jerm said:


> ^should be around 15% of the purchase


In total, or is that just for GST/PST?


----------



## Dusty Chalk

BigBaldIan said:


> Looks like a JB207C?
> 
> Edit: Plus a "new headstock unveiling on Friday", this may well be a 7 in-line (hopefully pointy).


I'm going to go out on a limb and guess "rabbit ears"/"forked tongue".

:trollface:


----------



## ramses

ok ... 6:31PM ... can anyone provide, at the very least, a verbal description of the new headstock???


----------



## TheUnvanquished

^^^
I think we have to wait until midnight, Pacific time


----------



## Dusty Chalk

I was kidding, but I guessed right (unless this is a troll):
EDIT: It is, indeed, a troll, but still funny that I guessed animal ears, all things considered.




...alright, those are more like moose antlers, but still -- animal kingdom! I was close...

[bullwinkle voice]Oh, Rocky, what we gonna do now?[/bullwinkle]


----------



## Stooge1996

new headstock. 

https://scontent-nrt1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/v/t1.0-9/11828711_1616200855329877_7753799650379168656_n.jpg?oh=eb1c21f93e9866ed9af9d708b457287f&oe=564FFC0C

looks just like dean?

http://profile.ultimate-guitar.com/profile_mojo_data/3/5/8/5/358541/pics/_c465185_image_0.jpg


----------



## MrNotFlyWhiteGuy

looks like they tried to make a pointy version of ibanez. I like the reverse version


----------



## areyna21

I like the new headstock personally. I felt like they needed an inline 7 string headstock.


----------



## Toejam

MrNotFlyWhiteGuy said:


> looks like they tried to make a pointy version of ibanez. I like the reverse version



More like a Dean/BC Rich.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

Toejam said:


> More like a Dean/BC Rich.



More like Dean/BC Rich/Ran/Ibanez/KxK/probably a .... ton of other brands. It's hardly a unique shape.


----------



## Toejam

Yeah, not that unique, but it works for Carvin, I think.


----------



## ThePIGI King

I like it, and think more people will like it once we see NGD's with it. Full view pics would help a bit too, imo.


----------



## russmuller

ThePIGI King said:


> I like it, and think more people will like it once we see NGD's with it. Full view pics would help a bit too, imo.



Agreed. Apparently Jeff posted this recently:







I was interested to see those Vader-esque bevels on a guitar with a headstock. I wonder if this was just an experiment or one-off, or if it's a sign of things to come.


----------



## ferret

russmuller said:


> Agreed. Apparently Jeff posted this recently:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was interested to see those Vader-esque bevels on a guitar with a headstock. I wonder if this was just an experiment or one-off, or if it's a sign of things to come.



Jeff refers to this as a "K" model, and has been building them for several months now. It's a call in only deal, they are DC series based and he hand bevels them.

I don't know why they don't just program it and make it an official model, other than the obvious of charging a premium for it.


----------



## nicktao

I'm not sure what it is, but that carved DC just doesn't do it for me. Maybe it's the fatter looking body, similar to the DC127. It might look better as a carved DCX7 with similar bevels.


----------



## electriceye

It looks EXACTLY like the Dean inline HS. Not sure why they'd do that when they already had their own (sort of) distinct shape.


----------



## Ferro

I quiet like it but it looks a bit too "fat" or big in my opinion. I'd have done it a bit more sleek, probably because I'm used to Blackmachine/Skervesen's reverse design


----------



## russmuller

electriceye said:


> It looks EXACTLY like the Dean inline HS. Not sure why they'd do that when they already had their own (sort of) distinct shape.



Really? I think it fits right in with their 3+3, 4+3, and 4+4 pointed headstocks, as well as the XCCELERATOR series. They all have the same design motif: 4 points connected by concave lines with pretty straight pull through.


----------



## electriceye




----------



## lewstherin006

I know this is in the standard section, but I want to show you guys my demo. I figured it would be a good way to get our minds off "headstockgate"  I am really loving the new pickups


----------



## spudmunkey

Ferro said:


> I quiet like it but it looks a bit too "fat" or big in my opinion. I'd have done it a bit more sleek, probably because I'm used to Blackmachine/Skervesen's reverse design


 
See, I thought the opposite. The 7-string looks a bit _too_ svelte for my tastes, and I think the 6-string is much better proportioned. I don't care for the Blackmachine/Skervesen headstocks.


----------



## TheDraeg

Hey guys, question for you:
Will Carvin install aftermarket pickups in your custom build if you send the pickups to them first?


----------



## marcwormjim

Sure - Just have a nurse tell them you're Jason Becker.


----------



## ferret

TheDraeg said:


> Hey guys, question for you:
> Will Carvin install aftermarket pickups in your custom build if you send the pickups to them first?



Yes, but they have to fit the routes. Call them up, they'll tell you what will fit, etc. I can recall that covered BKPs do NOT fit though.


----------



## Toejam

TheDraeg said:


> Hey guys, question for you:
> Will Carvin install aftermarket pickups in your custom build if you send the pickups to them first?



Yes. I got my 8-string a year ago before they had their own passive pickups. I was told to get whatever I wanted and they'd route for it. I debated a DiMarzio D-Activator or Duncan Nazgul. I went with the Nazgul and sent that in.


----------



## Curt

With the not at all recent realization that a Private stock PRS is out of the question for me, I have been weighing whether or not to get a Carvin or just get a floyded Custom 24. I really want more than a stock production guitar, though. So this is the idea I have for a CT624






Would have a Black Limba back and neck with tung oil finish on the neck. Headstock would also be more of a burst than a fade. Probably going to be around a year before I even have the cash, sadly.


----------



## gimmiedataxe

CU 24s aren't that expensive if you go used. I've seen some go for ~1300-1500 on eBay.


----------



## Curt

gimmiedataxe said:


> CU 24s aren't that expensive if you go used. I've seen some go for ~1300-1500 on eBay.


I'm aware, but I was talking that I wouldn't be able to afford private stock. lol 
I will likely go used, though I'm super picky about the color, Also finding one with the 5 way blade switch is a must, I can't do the old knob style pickup switch. Not to mention that I would highly prefer a Floyd. Though if the top is nice enough, I can look past that. so that narrows the search even more. We'll see what happens.


----------



## potatohead

Here's my latest... Killer, as always


----------



## ferret

Proper NGD when I have some sunlight for photos, pouring rain right now:


----------



## Alex6534

Sample of my DC700 with stock D26 pickups through my Kemper, using Driftwood profiles but M.Britt: [SC]https://soundcloud.com/alex6534/kemper-m-britt-driftwood-purple-nightmare-demo[/SC]


----------



## Arsenal12

A guy posted this on the Kiesel/Carvin FB fan page..


----------



## Fathand

Hey people, does anyone know if the 20" radius is available on the Bolt Classic (as an option 50, I'd assume). 

I sent a mail to Carvin about it, but I'd imagine they're pretty busy with NAMM coming up etc.


----------



## marcwormjim

Considering the Greg Howe model is a Bolt with 20" radius, they should be able to accommodate you - Provided the specified bridge saddles have adjustable height.


----------



## Mattykoda

Just give them a call if you haven't heard anything, Kieth and Chris are who I work with the most and definitely have a yes attitude.


----------



## Fathand

Yep, they answered already - that post was a bit hasty on my part, but what can you do when you have GAS.


----------



## TheWarAgainstTime

YOU _GUYS_


----------



## Jake

OH BOY


----------



## spn_phoenix_92

TheWarAgainstTime said:


> YOU _GUYS_


----------



## spudmunkey

I hate to stir anything up (especially on their official forum) and didn't think it warranted a whole new thread, but...

What's Mark's role in the company these days?

Most of the innovations and new options/models seem to have been brought to us by Jeff.

However, Mark brought us the CT, the SH550/FG1, the HH2, etc etc etc etc. I hope his eye for design, balance, proportion and detail don't take a back-burner. I loved the Carvin/Kiesel take on the Jazz Bass with the JB, which I believe was still under his watch. While the Kiesel Lithium pickups seem well-received, I wish there to be continuing development in non-modern-sounding pickups.

Nothing against Jeff, it's just that I hope the entire focus of the company doesn't go after chasing the metal market. And perhaps Mark is backing off and looking towards retiring...and if that's true, I hope jeff's vision includes those of us who have wants and needs that differ from players like those from Falluja and August Burns Red.


----------



## marcwormjim

Unless I'm mistaken, Mark is still designing/winding pickups, including the new Holdsworths.


----------



## jl-austin

I have seen the Aries fanned on the website. How hard is it to adjust to playing a fanned instrument?


----------



## Jayd41

jl-austin said:


> I have seen the Aries fanned on the website. How hard is it to adjust to playing a fanned instrument?



It's not.
Seriously.
5 minutes with one and you'll be wondering why it's taken so long to gain popularity.


----------



## ilyti

lewstherin006 said:


> I know this is in the standard section, but I want to show you guys my demo.


That was awesome! Loved the rhythm playing and faces.


----------



## ferret

Rosewood necks are reported as being available at a $300 upcharge per Chris. Not sure how much availability there is.


----------



## soliloquy

*welp
seeing as how the canadian dollar is crashing, its making my dream to get a sh550 a lil out of budget for me. guess i'll have to settle for used down the line...

in other news, when did this happen? a bolt on 24 fret guitar that is not the steve howe, nor the aries series, nor bolt plus, nor c66...
http://www.carvinguitars.com/guitars-in-stock/133445


----------



## Nlelith

^It's most likely a prototype made for *Greg* Howe.


----------



## mbardu

If you look at all the Instagram pictures of namm, you will only see kiesel branding, and only see kiesel Guitars. 

No carvin name to be seen... And no carvin models either. 
At least yet. 

Might be nothing, but my post was silenced/censored on the other forum so maybe not nothing


----------



## SnowfaLL

mbardu said:


> If you look at all the Instagram pictures of namm, you will only see kiesel branding, and only see kiesel Guitars.
> 
> No carvin name to be seen... And no carvin models either.
> At least yet.
> 
> Might be nothing, but my post was silenced/censored on the other forum so maybe not nothing



The Jason Becker 7 string model (brand new 2016 model) is branded with Carvin.. so there's that. I get what you mean though, none of the signage says Carvin anywhere. I think we all know eventually Jeff wants to phase out the Carvin name.. but I know my next 2 or 3 guitars will be Carvin branded, with maybe the exception being if any kinda fanned fret Vader's come out and I have no choice.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

mbardu said:


> If you look at all the Instagram pictures of namm, you will only see kiesel branding, and only see kiesel Guitars.
> 
> No carvin name to be seen... And no carvin models either.
> At least yet.
> 
> Might be nothing, but my post was silenced/censored on the other forum so maybe not nothing



Pretty sure Jeff's adamant about phasing out the Carvin name in favor for the family Kiesel name. 

Something I did find interesting is in a video I watched when he was showing off the new guitars, he called the Kiesel booth "his booth." Probably nothing as well.


----------



## mbardu

SnowfaLL said:


> The Jason Becker 7 string model (brand new 2016 model) is branded with Carvin.. so there's that. I get what you mean though, none of the signage says Carvin anywhere. I think we all know eventually Jeff wants to phase out the Carvin name.. but I know my next 2 or 3 guitars will be Carvin branded, with maybe the exception being if any kinda fanned fret Vader's come out and I have no choice.



Has there been anywhere at all any indication that the 7 string JB woul dbe a model available to order?

Every indication so far pointed to a one-off for Jason Becker, no?


----------



## davedeath

Watch the fb video,its a new model


----------



## mbardu

davedeath said:


> Watch the fb video,its a new model



Ha I missed the latest video  

Definitely much Carvin there


----------



## ferret

I still find it odd, with their Kiesel-Everything marketing, that kieselguitars.com redirects to carvinguitars.com, rather than the other way around.


----------



## laxu

ferret said:


> I still find it odd, with their Kiesel-Everything marketing, that kieselguitars.com redirects to carvinguitars.com, rather than the other way around.



Most likely has more to do with how their website is rather dated.


----------



## Speedy Fingers

Alright guys. I just placed my order for a V7 and am SOOOO excited! I only have one question - should I have opted for the thinner neck profile option? I played the V& with the standard neck at NAMM and it was great. I also tried my bandmate's DC727 and it's also just fine - maybe slightly thicker than I'd prefer.

What's the general consensus here?


----------



## mr coffee

I've got the thinner DC800, I like it but have never tried the standard profile.

-m


----------



## spudmunkey

ferret said:


> I still find it odd, with their Kiesel-Everything marketing, that kieselguitars.com redirects to carvinguitars.com, rather than the other way around.



Well, they are moving to a new building, Mike Jones confirmed they are working on a builder and in that post he mentioned that it was a ground-up redesign, or something to that effect, which to me sounded like an all new website. If that's the case, I think a great time to update those re-directs would be with an "all new" website.


----------



## cip 123

davedeath said:


> Watch the fb video,its a new model



Wheres the video?


----------



## Fathand

Aesthetic opinions from Carvin fans - which is better in _your _opinion: 

Honeyburst satin with black hardware, normal / stainless frets
Jet Black gloss with gold hardware, Evo gold frets

No inlays.


----------



## ferret

I'd do jet black, but satin (Except I'm afraid of satin)


----------



## cip 123

Jet Black satin like Ferret said^


----------



## TheUnvanquished

I prefer the satin honeyburst w/ black hardware. When this bass was available in the 'guitars in stock' section of the kiesel website I saved this photo because I loved the look and was considering it for a future build. Just my opinion!

Edit: This bass has gold hardware!!! Oh well, I still think honeyburst with black would be better...


----------



## Jonathan20022

Ordered my K7 two weeks ago! The anticipation for this is gonna be crazy.


----------



## Valco

Hey guys. 

I'm sure this has been asked before, and I did go back some pages for a answer, but has anyone ordered from Carvin and had their guitar delivered to the UK? If so, what were the custom costs like? 

I found a website that stated I could be looking at £250 on top if I were to spend about £1200, but I'm not entirely sure how accurate that is.

I'd love a Vader, but I'm somewhat torn between that and a strandberg. I'd prefer a Vader just because I can have it customised. On the flip side, I can order a strandberg from a guitar shop within the UK, so no nasty custom costs.


----------



## High Plains Drifter

Fathand said:


> Aesthetic opinions from Carvin fans - which is better in _your _opinion:
> 
> Honeyburst satin with black hardware, normal / stainless frets
> Jet Black gloss with gold hardware, Evo gold frets
> 
> No inlays.



Some decisions are just too hard to make. I was faced with a similar situation recently... 

Koa top + zebrawood/ no inlay + stainless frets + black hardware

or 

Koa top + ebony/ no inlay + gold frets + gold hardware

Took me almost a week to decide. No idea without seeing the one's you're looking at but good luck.


----------



## mnemonic

Valco said:


> Hey guys.
> 
> I'm sure this has been asked before, and I did go back some pages for a answer, but has anyone ordered from Carvin and had their guitar delivered to the UK? If so, what were the custom costs like?
> 
> I found a website that stated I could be looking at £250 on top if I were to spend about £1200, but I'm not entirely sure how accurate that is.
> 
> I'd love a Vader, but I'm somewhat torn between that and a strandberg. I'd prefer a Vader just because I can have it customised. On the flip side, I can order a strandberg from a guitar shop within the UK, so no nasty custom costs.



Last I checked, you'll have to pay 20% VAT and 3.7% import duty (rate for instruments) on the total price (which includes whatever the cost of shipping/insurance is). 

I was considering it about two years ago, but I ended up getting a Mayones instead since it ended up fitting my requirements just as well, came with name-brand pickups and was like £100 cheaper to boot. Plus no needing to deal with someone across the ocean if I ran into a problem with the guitar.


----------



## a5tr0_z0mb13

Valco said:


> Hey guys.
> 
> I'm sure this has been asked before, and I did go back some pages for a answer, but has anyone ordered from Carvin and had their guitar delivered to the UK? If so, what were the custom costs like?
> 
> I found a website that stated I could be looking at £250 on top if I were to spend about £1200, but I'm not entirely sure how accurate that is.
> 
> I'd love a Vader, but I'm somewhat torn between that and a strandberg. I'd prefer a Vader just because I can have it customised. On the flip side, I can order a strandberg from a guitar shop within the UK, so no nasty custom costs.



I got a V6 delivered to the UK in January. Customs costs were £219. I'm having so many problems with it now, I wish I hadn't have bothered.


----------



## Valco

a5tr0_z0mb13 said:


> I got a V6 delivered to the UK in January. Customs costs were £219. I'm having so many problems with it now, I wish I hadn't have bothered.



Doesn't sound good. What happened? 

I'm probably going to go for the strandberg to be honest.


----------



## Jonathan20022

a5tr0_z0mb13 said:


> I got a V6 delivered to the UK in January. Customs costs were £219. I'm having so many problems with it now, I wish I hadn't have bothered.



What problems are you having?


----------



## marcwormjim

Supposedly they've been known to have things snap off entirely, such as the headstock - Even being delivered with them missing.


----------



## a5tr0_z0mb13

Jonathan20022 said:


> What problems are you having?



The unwound strings pop out of the saddles when you bend the string and the finish is flaking off the neck


----------



## Valco

a5tr0_z0mb13 said:


> The unwound strings pop out of the saddles when you bend the string and the finish is flaking off the neck



How have they been when trying to get it sorted?


----------



## a5tr0_z0mb13

Valco said:


> How have they been when trying to get it sorted?



Not great to be honest, which is disappointing, as I'd only heard good things about them previously.

If it weren't for those issues, it would be the best guitar I've ever played though, so hopefully they'll come through...


----------



## Chokey Chicken

a5tr0_z0mb13 said:


> The unwound strings pop out of the saddles when you bend the string and the finish is flaking off the neck



Would you mind taking pictures? I'm trying to imagine how the strings pop out of the saddles and I just can't visualize it.


----------



## a5tr0_z0mb13




----------



## marcwormjim

That bridge looks wonky.


----------



## Fathand

That guitar appears to be wonky. 

Either it's the angle of the picture or that bridge was fitted crooked - just based by looking the bridge saddles. Looks like there's a too much pull to the right? And finish not cured enough before shipping and the moisture / temperature change caused some air under it --> Peel?

If those really are the issues I hope they will fix this somehow.


----------



## Hollowway

Ya, Carvin (Kiesel?) are really good about CS, from what I've seen. If you haven't made an account on carvinbbs maybe set one up, as those guys are good at directing you to the people that can make things happen.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

That's a whole boatload of yuck. It's a shame because that bridge looks like it's not centered right. The neck finish is ....ed too. It's a shame if they can't do anything for you.


----------



## laxu

I don't think you can say anything about the bridge mounting from that picture.

What I would do is see what Kiesel offers. As it's a huge, expensive pain in the ass to ship the guitar back to the US I hope they can give you some sort of discount for the finish issue. Your issues are totally fixable. 

You can fix the finish problem possibly with spot dropping lacquer or superglue on the chipped part to build a finish then sand it flush. The chipped area might still have a visible outline but should feel ok.

The saddle issue is also solved simply using the same method techs use on new saddles. Simply set the string where it needs to be and use a rubber-faced mallet (or figure out a way to hit the string and saddle at the right point without using something that will mar the finish) to hit the string so it causes a notch in the saddle. This ruins the string but gives you an accurate groove for the new string to stay in and it should no longer move around.

Neither should happen on a new guitar but I'm sure Kiesel will make it right.


----------



## a5tr0_z0mb13

laxu said:


> I don't think you can say anything about the bridge mounting from that picture.
> 
> What I would do is see what Kiesel offers. As it's a huge, expensive pain in the ass to ship the guitar back to the US I hope they can give you some sort of discount for the finish issue. Your issues are totally fixable.
> 
> You can fix the finish problem possibly with spot dropping lacquer or superglue on the chipped part to build a finish then sand it flush. The chipped area might still have a visible outline but should feel ok.
> 
> The saddle issue is also solved simply using the same method techs use on new saddles. Simply set the string where it needs to be and use a rubber-faced mallet (or figure out a way to hit the string and saddle at the right point without using something that will mar the finish) to hit the string so it causes a notch in the saddle. This ruins the string but gives you an accurate groove for the new string to stay in and it should no longer move around.
> 
> Neither should happen on a new guitar but I'm sure Kiesel will make it right.



Kiesel are aware of the issues - I'm going to give it a few days and see what they say. Hopefully we'll be able to work something out...


----------



## dhgrind

I'm in the same boat right now, string bends snapped the E string while testing out the side to side saddle movement and pinging. 

This looks like a real trend going on with these guitars.


----------



## electriceye

Those saddles simply don't look right.You can see how the string would move and eventually snap on those edges. They need to be notched.


----------



## ferret

Regarding bridge saddles pinging on Vaders, this just got posted to Facebook:

Ok guys.. We've heard there have been some guys that have had some issues with a pinging sound from one of more saddles. Jeff has contacted Hipshot with this issue and this is how it is going to get resolved!
****Kiesel Vader Headless Bridge Design Update****
Design update for headless saddles that are installed on all 2015 Kiesel Vaders and 2016 Vaders shipped before 3/7/16.
This offer is a no charge update and is valid from 3/7/16 to 5/7/16, after 5/7/16 you can purchase these parts directly from Hipshot Products for installation. 
This design update only effects the first three saddles (E, B, G) and only effects players that bend notes hard past the 20th fret, an occasional small ping noise can be heard.
Hipshot Products has offered to swap the first three saddles at no charge, upon receiving the new saddles, please return your old saddles to Hipshot as part of the update. 
To contact Hipshot and arrange for the saddles to be sent out please address your email to [email protected]
Soon a YouTube video will be posted on the Kiesel channel showing you how to swap these saddles and set the intonation https://www.youtube.com/user/carvinguitars
If you would prefer Kiesel Guitars do the Update you can arrange to send in your Vader. 
To contact Kiesel Guitars to arrange an RMA before sending in your Vader please address your email to [email protected]
Kiesel Guitars
Custom Guitars & Basses, Made in the USA | KieselGuitars.com
858-GUITARS


----------



## cubix

Never liked this sort of a bridge, it's just too many loose parts, springs etc. that can wiggle and move. This one looked really "cheap" to me from the start  On the Ibanez Gibraltar bridges of similiar construction the saddles actually could shift up and down with your picking... For headless I think a seperate saddle/bridge construction is a must, where the saddle is fixed in place firmly. And yeah, the saddle cuts are too shallow and rounded.


----------



## Takk

Kiesel/Carvin BBS - Ping from hipshot bridge saddle


----------



## electriceye

Keisel isn't handling this correctly. Why should the customers have to handle the replacement process? THEY should do that as a basic courtesy. And then some. C'mon....


----------



## Jonathan20022

electriceye said:


> Keisel isn't handling this correctly. Why should the customers have to handle the replacement process? THEY should do that as a basic courtesy. And then some. C'mon....





> If you would prefer Kiesel Guitars do the Update you can arrange to send in your Vader.
> To contact Kiesel Guitars to arrange an RMA before sending in your Vader please address your email to [email protected]
> Kiesel Guitars
> Custom Guitars & Basses, Made in the USA | KieselGuitars.com
> 858-GUITARS


----------



## electriceye

Jonathan20022 said:


>



Sorry. I hadn't seen that response from them.


----------



## laxu

Much easier to just send people some saddles. It's not like they require much of a brain to install.


----------



## jeb

I just got my TL60!!! That guitar is 100% perfect!!! it plays like butter!! fit and finish are perfect! it sounds awesome( I choose the lithium pups) I wanted the best no frill without bling bling guitar. Can't be more happy!!


----------



## Blue1970Cutlass

jeb said:


> I just got my TL60!!! That guitar is 100% perfect!!! it plays like butter!! fit and finish are perfect! it sounds awesome( I choose the lithium pups) I wanted the best no frill without bling bling guitar. Can't be more happy!!



Damn, that thing looks sick! (except it's backwards nyuk nyuk nyuk) 

Congrats!


----------



## mnemonic

Now thats an awesome finish. And the maple neck is a great compliment to it.


----------



## jeb

Blue1970Cutlass said:


> Damn, that thing looks sick! (except it's backwards nyuk nyuk nyuk)
> 
> Congrats!



HAHA I just can't get enough of those lefty jokes!! thanks!!!


----------



## mbardu

Was doing a bit of spring cleaning today so got to taking a rare family pic


----------



## ilyti

mbardu: I have seen most of those guitars at some point, never realized they all belonged to the same person. I love that green SCB and Dc600... and the Vader. And the C66. I see you replaced the Lithiums in the Vader with "old" Carvins. Interesting choice!


----------



## Quiet Coil

SCB6 vs TL60?

Pulling together my first Carvin order and am seeking input from anyone familiar with both models. This may have been more appropriate under a different forum, but I doubt I'd get responses from the people I most want to hear from.

If nothing else maybe PM me with your thoughts to help keep from derailing this thread?

Thanks all!


----------



## mbardu

Noisy Humbucker said:


> SCB6 vs TL60?
> 
> Pulling together my first Carvin order and am seeking input from anyone familiar with both models. This may have been more appropriate under a different forum, but I doubt I'd get responses from the people I most want to hear from.
> 
> If nothing else maybe PM me with your thoughts to help keep from derailing this thread?
> 
> Thanks all!



Quality is going to be the same between the two, so choose based on the options and looks that you prefer.
Some things off the top of my head: The SCB can have a Floyd, can come with the 2 volumes / 2 tones control layout - the TL60 doesn't have those options. On the other hand some people prefer the more 'traditional' TL shape and/or don't like the bevel on the SCB.
Personal choice! I'd vote SCB, but there are also some very nice TLs out there!


----------



## mbardu

ilyti said:


> mbardu: I have seen most of those guitars at some point, never realized they all belonged to the same person. I love that green SCB and Dc600... and the Vader. And the C66. I see you replaced the Lithiums in the Vader with "old" Carvins. Interesting choice!



At first the Lithiums didn't really work for me. Waaay too harsh.
Hence the swap for the M22SD/Holdsworth pickup combo.
They are the best Carvin makes in my opinion and some of the very best regardless of brands. Very vey few pickups I like as much as that combo, save for BKP Warpigs and the PRS 57/08s (totally different range).

But weird thing, the Lithium work VERY well on my Floyd guitars and/or in lower tunings.


----------



## SnowfaLL

mbardu said:


> At first the Lithiums didn't really work for me. Waaay too harsh.
> Hence the swap for the M22SD/Holdsworth pickup combo.
> They are the best Carvin makes in my opinion and some of the very best regardless of brands. Very vey few pickups I like as much as that combo, save for BKP Warpigs and the PRS 57/08s (totally different range).
> 
> But weird thing, the Lithium work VERY well on my Floyd guitars and/or in lower tunings.



with my CT7 run order yesterday, I ordered a M22SD for my ST300.. hoping that really helps bring that guitar to life. Taking all you guys' word on it! Lithiums work well for me on the 7 strings so far, and I'll probably get a Lithium Neck for the ST300 to replace the Dimarzio Liquifire, but we'll see how it goes for the bridge.. thats the guitar that every pickup failed on; including like 5 different BKP humbuckers.


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> Quality is going to be the same between the two, so choose based on the options and looks that you prefer.
> Some things off the top of my head: The SCB can have a Floyd, can come with the 2 volumes / 2 tones control layout - the TL60 doesn't have those options. On the other hand some people prefer the more 'traditional' TL shape and/or don't like the bevel on the SCB.
> Personal choice! I'd vote SCB, but there are also some very nice TLs out there!



They have actually added the Floyd to the TL60 as a standard option, for what it's worth. 

The only real differences, as mbardu pointed out, will be the control locations, the method of forearm comfort (bevel vs drop-top...unless you get binding, which eliminated the drop), and maybe the available headstock shapes.


----------



## dustygator

Anyone here happen to own an AE-185? I'd love to get some opinions.

I can't think of anyone manufacturer that does a neck-through semi-hollow.


----------



## Mathemagician

Cannot wait to order my DC700, only a year out! This thread isn't helping.


----------



## spudmunkey

dustygator said:


> I can't think of anyone manufacturer that does a neck-through semi-hollow.



...and they even make four! SH60/65, AC175, AC275 and the AE185.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Just got an update holy ....


----------



## jerm

^holyyyyyyyyyyyyyy that top is insane. Might just be the nicest piece I've seen.


----------



## mbardu

That fretboard man...


----------



## laxu

My AM7 is finally on its way. Took about 13 weeks from order to shipping. Hopefully will have it in my hands next Wednesday or Thursday unless the Finnish customs .... things up.


----------



## narad

nicest K7 yet...if not nicest Kiesel yet...


----------



## Jonathan20022

They just wrapped it up, I'm so ecstatic.


----------



## jc986

Jonathan20022 said:


> They just wrapped it up, I'm so ecstatic.



That's killer! Congrats man. I think that's the best koa top I've ever seen.


----------



## kevdes93

I was just gonna say, hands down the best koa top I think I've seen other than the Koa Regius' mayones did a few of. Don't you have one of those too now that I'm thinking about it?


----------



## Jonathan20022

Yeah! I got a Koa Regius earlier last year, just as immense as this guitar looks wise. Should be a cool photo with both of them side by side.


----------



## jerm

man everything is so perfect. just wish it had creme pups!


----------



## Jonathan20022

It had Chrome covered Aftermaths (Gross) in it stock and I had those blackhawks laying around at the time  I wouldn't change a thing right now, it sounds flawless with the BHs!


----------



## jc986

I think it looks great with the black Blackhawks. I wouldn't change it either.


----------



## kevdes93

Jonathan20022 said:


> Yeah! I got a Koa Regius earlier last year, just as immense as this guitar looks wise. Should be a cool photo with both of them side by side.



Yeah that'd be a great photo, I'm in need of a new phone background


----------



## Alberto7

Aw man. I keep growing more and more out of fancy figured tops, but koa is the one wood that I have a ridiculously soft spot for. That K7 is stupid pretty.

Also, there's nothing quite like gold hardware on koa.


----------



## High Plains Drifter

Dude freaking awesome. Yes! HNGD 






EDIT> That Regius too... uh!


----------



## Fathand

Looks like they updated their website.. and the Holdsworth HH1 is gone! 

Only HH2 left, with a 0$ option to drop the neck PU. So basically a 100$ price raise for a "HH1" model, which equals about 110 more to the final price after customs & taxes.


----------



## BigViolin

That's a stinky move.

Hope Allan gets a little extra of that!


----------



## electriceye

What was the uncharge on that koa top? Holy sh*t...


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Fathand said:


> Looks like they updated their website.. and the Holdsworth HH1 is gone!
> 
> Only HH2 left, with a 0$ option to drop the neck PU. So basically a 100$ price raise for a "HH1" model, which equals about 110 more to the final price after customs & taxes.



Didn't they also drop some of the semi-hollows?

It's a shame they keep getting rid of some of their cooler guitars. They got rid of the extended-range basses as well. They were one of the few companies that did straight-scale basses longer than 35''.


----------



## bostjan

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Didn't they also drop some of the semi-hollows?
> 
> It's a shame they keep getting rid of some of their cooler guitars. They got rid of the extended-range basses as well. They were one of the few companies that did straight-scale basses longer than 35''.



They did?!

I guess us long scale guys are a dying breed.

I find it funny that Warwick has an "extended scale" 4-string that measures in at 35".

I wish someone made a production bass with a real extended scale, like 1 m ±


----------



## spudmunkey

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Didn't they also drop some of the semi-hollows?
> 
> It's a shame they keep getting rid of some of their cooler guitars. They got rid of the extended-range basses as well. They were one of the few companies that did straight-scale basses longer than 35''.





bostjan said:


> They did?!
> 
> I guess us long scale guys are a dying breed.
> 
> I find it funny that Warwick has an "extended scale" 4-string that measures in at 35".
> 
> I wish someone made a production bass with a real extended scale, like 1 m ±



To be fair, the XB was discontinued about a year and a half ago (almost to the day), and not many noticed. Some? Yes...but obviously not enough to make it worth while to keep around. If it was profitable or played by a signature artist, they probably would have kept it around.

As far as the semi-hollows, they got rid of the AC275-12 (but they kept the CC275-12 for some reason), and then folded the SH445 and SH645 into the FG1 line-up, and time will tell if they will let you spec it with lower-then-flamed-maple tops, as is the current FG1 spec. "The SH double-cut was the same thing as the FG1, but the FG1 has a more comfortable neck heel, and you can get the F holes as a no-charge option".

They "eliminated" the SH550CE and SH575CE as stand-alone models, and just made it a a part of the SH550/575 line-up, which they have opened up to lower-priced plain maple wood tops.


----------



## Jonathan20022

electriceye said:


> What was the uncharge on that koa top? Holy sh*t...



None 

I only paid an upcharge on the Royal Ebony (Katalox) Fretboard and that's it. Base price basically.


----------



## technomancer

Jonathan20022 said:


> None
> 
> I only paid an upcharge on the Royal Ebony (Katalox) Fretboard and that's it. Base price basically.



Yeah it's a shame that koa is a crap shoot as that top is killer. Sadly not all Carvin Koa looks like that (though most is at least good).

Then again I'm picky about tops


----------



## spudmunkey

If I remember right, the "grade" of Koa, quilted maple, etc are a grade higher by default on the K series. Is that true? I seem to remember them saying one at NAMM has a 5A quilted maple top.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Yeah 4A Koa is stock on all K Series, 5A Maple is also stock from what I remember. Buckeye/Ebony/Ziricote are no upcharge as well.


----------



## mbardu

OK - Just got a new one in today 

I have absolutely zero need for an ultra V right now  but at the price, I couldn't resist the tung-oiled goodness.

When I get at least some time away from work I'll take real pictures...


But in the meantime...


----------



## electriceye

mbardu said:


> OK - Just got a new one in today
> 
> I have absolutely zero need for an ultra V right now  but at the price, I couldn't resist the tung-oiled goodness.
> 
> When I get at least some time away from work I'll take real pictures...
> 
> 
> But in the meantime...



That is stunning!! Is that walnut?? I had an ultra-V a longing time ago. Very fast player, but hard to play sitting down. I took it to the Sam Ash in White Plains to trade it in (I don't even remember for what now), and I will never forget the sales guy's reaction when I opened the case. "A Carvin? Oh, sh*t...)


----------



## mbardu

electriceye said:


> That is stunning!! Is that walnut?? I had an ultra-V a longing time ago. Very fast player, but hard to play sitting down. I took it to the Sam Ash in White Plains to trade it in (I don't even remember for what now), and I will never forget the sales guy's reaction when I opened the case. "A Carvin? Oh, sh*t...)



It is indeed. All walnut wings and neck, that I gotta say go very well together. 

One of my favorite looks on a carvin!


----------



## diagrammatiks

Can I ask questions in this thread? I'll be happy to make a new thread if not...

I just picked up a used dc7x. It's my first Carvin and I love that guitar. The scale length and fretwork and everything is just awesome. I was just wondering a couple of things...

The neck on it is very thick. I think it might be the combination of the neck thickness and the flat fretboard radius but the entire neck feels very bulky in my hands. Much bulkier then my Wizard necks. Has anyone compared their thinner neck profile and their regular neck profile in terms of comfort?

I also kind of wish this guitar had a deeper forearm contour. I mainly play an Anderson baritone right now and that guitar has a very pronounced contour all the way to the edge of the guitar.From the pictures I've seen it looks like the Aries series actually has a contour that is like that. Has anyone owned both a Vader and a Dc7x? Is contouring around the top edge of the body more pronounced on the Vader?

Thanks.


----------



## mbardu

diagrammatiks said:


> Can I ask questions in this thread? I'll be happy to make a new thread if not...
> 
> I just picked up a used dc7x. It's my first Carvin and I love that guitar. The scale length and fretwork and everything is just awesome. I was just wondering a couple of things...
> 
> The neck on it is very thick. I think it might be the combination of the neck thickness and the flat fretboard radius but the entire neck feels very bulky in my hands. Much bulkier then my Wizard necks. Has anyone compared their thinner neck profile and their regular neck profile in terms of comfort?
> 
> I also kind of wish this guitar had a deeper forearm contour. I mainly play an Anderson baritone right now and that guitar has a very pronounced contour all the way to the edge of the guitar.From the pictures I've seen it looks like the Aries series actually has a contour that is like that. Has anyone owned both a Vader and a Dc7x? Is contouring around the top edge of the body more pronounced on the Vader?
> 
> Thanks.



Contouring on a Vader is not that different from DC in terms of feel.
Ultimately it will not give you the feel of a heavy bevel (like on the Aries) or super deep drop/contour.

As for neck profiles, even with thinner option, it's going to be nowhere near a Wizard, sorry. The different options are not that different from each other to be honest.


----------



## ilyti

mbardu said:


> OK - Just got a new one in today
> 
> I have absolutely zero need for an ultra V right now  but at the price, I couldn't resist the tung-oiled goodness.
> 
> When I get at least some time away from work I'll take real pictures...
> 
> 
> But in the meantime...


Love that knot right in the middle of the neck.


----------



## ferret

Put in an order tonight on an AM6 in purple to blue colorshift finish.


----------



## ferret

Video examples of both color shift paints:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BFrvL0zBBO8/
https://www.instagram.com/p/BFr4N1WhBGh/


----------



## cajunboy2k

Carvin #2, it arrived last night.


----------



## cip 123

cajunboy2k said:


> Carvin #2, it arrived last night.



Looks sick!

I'm hopefully if all goes well, picking up a JB myself this weekend!


----------



## cip 123

I'll be joining the Family soon! I just won a JB200 off ebay for a ridiculous price considering the specs. Can't wait!


----------



## shadowlife

cip 123 said:


> I'll be joining the Family soon! I just won a JB200 off ebay for a ridiculous price considering the specs. Can't wait!



We need pics when it arrives!


----------



## cip 123

I'll have an NGD thread definitely and I'll post some here in case you miss it. Should be crazy, Koa wings, fully flamed neck!


----------



## Dogmai

As a owner of 7 carvins / keisels i do believe i have earned the right to say what i think about the company! After the fiasco that was my vader v7 zero fret, and being told that zero fret replacements on a 1 year old guitar is my cost and charging me to replace it! I stopped buying all Carvin Kiesel guitars! 

After dealing with some seriously doooshy people at kiesel tech support and fb. I swore off any new carvins! EVAR!

I have now taken my business to PRS, Mayones, ESP and other variouse high end guitar manufacturers!

After reading almost every post here! I see i made a wise decision! All though it would have been fun to watch there customer service post his pr b.S. and leave his arse swinging in the wind in person!


----------



## diagrammatiks

Dogmai said:


> As a owner of 7 carvins / keisels i do believe i have earned the right to say what i think about the company! After the fiasco that was my vader v7 zero fret, and being told that zero fret replacements on a 1 year old guitar is my cost and charging me to replace it! I stopped buying all Carvin Kiesel guitars!
> 
> After dealing with some seriously doooshy people at kiesel tech support and fb. I swore off any new carvins! EVAR!
> 
> I have now taken my business to PRS, Mayones, ESP and other variouse high end guitar manufacturers!
> 
> After reading almost every post here! I see i made a wise decision! All though it would have been fun to watch there customer service post his pr b.S. and leave his arse swinging in the wind in person!



so if you're quitting kiesel...is that aries going up for sale?


----------



## cip 123

NGD thread, joined the family

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/st...ason-becker-content-big-pics.html#post4593825


----------



## HighGain510

Looks like my custom Arctic Pink Vader 7 is done! 







Not too shabby!


----------



## ThePIGI King

Looks indefinitely better with the full top, instead of where it was cut off at the contour...


----------



## xzacx

ThePIGI King said:


> Looks indefinitely better with the full top, instead of where it was cut off at the contour...



I couldn't agree more. That color is particularly nice too. That's gotta be one of the best Vader's I've seen.


----------



## HighGain510

ThePIGI King said:


> Looks indefinitely better with the full top, instead of where it was cut off at the contour...



Totally agree! Between that and moving to a regular nut setup, this is perfect! My card got billed today so I guess she'll be shipping out soon too which is awesome, stoked to play this one!


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

HighGain510 said:


> Totally agree! Between that and moving to a regular nut setup, this is perfect! My card got billed today so I guess she'll be shipping out soon too which is awesome, stoked to play this one!



When you do the NGD, can you do me a _huge_ favor and post pics of how the gig bag compares to a standard guitar gig bag? Like some pics of it next to one or something? I've been looking around at various travel-friendly guitars, so that's something I'd really be interested in seeing.


----------



## HighGain510

Grand Moff Tim said:


> When you do the NGD, can you do me a _huge_ favor and post pics of how the gig bag compares to a standard guitar gig bag? Like some pics of it next to one or something? I've been looking around at various travel-friendly guitars, so that's something I'd really be interested in seeing.



I posted this a while back, can't recall which thread it was in at this point. 







That's a DC800 case vs a Vader 6 case.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

HighGain510 said:


> I posted this a while back, can't recall which thread it was in at this point.
> 
> *pic*
> 
> That's a DC800 case vs a Vader 6 case.



Do you do much if any flying at all? Curious if you know whether or not it'll fit in an overhead compartment, or if I'd be forced to check it with my baggage.

Also, complete shot in the dark, do you have a Holdsworth headless sitting around somewhere? 
It'd be interesting to see how the HH's gigbag measure up compared to the Vader.


----------



## shadowlife

Question for Vader owners-
how comfortable is the guitar to play in classical position?
Does the "cutout" make it easier on the right leg?
Do the tuners cause any issues with the right leg in that position?

I'm really tempted to pull the trigger on a Vader 6, but i want my next guitar to be ideal for classical position, and i'm not willing to take a chance on the endurneck with a strandberg.
Thanks for any replies.


----------



## feraledge

I don't play in classical position normally, but it'll end up getting there every now and then when I'm playing on the couch. I don't think there were any issues there, but I'll make an conscious effort to try it out tonight and report back. The body is thick enough that the tuners aren't right there in your leg though.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

Occasionally I play it in classical position and I find it comfortable. Certainly not uncomfortable. Makes a lot of lead playing while sitting significantly more comfortable in fact.

edit: The tuners don't cause problems with me. It doesn't go out of tune, and they don't dig in and bruise you or anything. I have a Doris Yeh sig bass that has a thin edge the hurts after a little while of seated playing, and the vader has no such issues, even with the tuners resting on the thigh.


----------



## BigViolin

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Do you do much if any flying at all? Curious if you know whether or not it'll fit in an overhead compartment, or if I'd be forced to check it with my baggage.
> 
> Also, complete shot in the dark, do you have a Holdsworth headless sitting around somewhere?
> It'd be interesting to see how the HH's gigbag measure up compared to the Vader.



I've flown with my HH1 and it fit easily in the overhead bin and didn't even draw a look from airline staff. The case measures 35". I don't have a Vader to compare.


----------



## shadowlife

Thanks to the guys who responded to my question about classical position- i think a Vader will be my next purchase. Now, to decide on the specs...


----------



## HighGain510

Having owned both, I definitely prefer the Strandberg for playing in classical position.  It worked out way better for me than my Vader in that respect, but if you would like I can try each in classical position on Wednesday to re-confirm since I'll have both again, but I do recall that being a sticking point for me back when I had both in the house, FWIW. 

Obviously it wasn't enough to deter me from wanting to order another one, but I also don't plan to play this one in the classical position.


----------



## feraledge

Playing in classical position right now, feels fine to me.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Should be done relatively soon, pretty excited.


----------



## WhiskeyPickleJake

How do you guys avoid getting overwhelmed with choices during the build selection? On my phone it seemed impossible.


----------



## ferret

Well, I do it from the PC  It'd be crazy trying to do it on a phone.

That said, and I recommend this to everyone, I'm a firm believer that you should use the builder to get your idea, then call it in. Let Chris or Mike and the others tell you about other options that aren't on the builder, or maybe warn you away from something they've seen not work out well before.

It's important to note that just because the option isn't on the online builder does NOT make it an opt 50 or no return.


----------



## oremus91

shadowlife said:


> Question for Vader owners-
> how comfortable is the guitar to play in classical position?
> Does the "cutout" make it easier on the right leg?
> Do the tuners cause any issues with the right leg in that position?
> 
> I'm really tempted to pull the trigger on a Vader 6, but i want my next guitar to be ideal for classical position, and i'm not willing to take a chance on the endurneck with a strandberg.
> Thanks for any replies.



The strandberg has overall been more enjoyable in the classical position than my vader (let's be honest, the berg was sort of made with that in mind), but I still prefer my vader overall and continue to play it in the classical position.

I don't really play without pants frequently, but even in pajamas I don't notice the tuners at all. The guitar is so light everything just rests on you rather than digging.


----------



## WhiskeyPickleJake

ferret said:


> Well, I do it from the PC  It'd be crazy trying to do it on a phone.
> 
> That said, and I recommend this to everyone, I'm a firm believer that you should use the builder to get your idea, then call it in. Let Chris or Mike and the others tell you about other options that aren't on the builder, or maybe warn you away from something they've seen not work out well before.
> 
> It's important to note that just because the option isn't on the online builder does NOT make it an opt 50 or no return.



Thank you. Good points I hadn't thought of.


----------



## HighGain510

Kiesel was killing me earlier when he posted this one:

Multiscale Vader 7: Satin Finished Buckeye Burl Top, Swamp Ash Body Wings, Solid Maple Neck, Royal Ebony Fretboard, Abalone Offset Staggered Dot Inlays, Medium Jumbo Evo Gold Frets



















Should arrive next week!  Not chambered but only weighs 6.45lbs!


----------



## oremus91

Looks good dude! I love the one piece maple neck, I'm definitely getting that or 5 plain maple on my next build if I get a 6 from them.

Nothing cooler than a burl or a spalt, what is more metal than dried formerly rotting wood?


----------



## Jack Secret

I remember this thread! 

Haven't been here in forever. Still have 6 Carvins (3 V220's & 3 DC600's) but currently diversifying my collection to other companies these days. Still have a Vader in my plans, tho. Just been going more the vintage route for a few guitars. 

Hope all you fellow Carvinites are doing well.


----------



## pooshoes

Whoa that's a tasteful build, nice!



HighGain510 said:


> Kiesel was killing me earlier when he posted this one:
> 
> Multiscale Vader 7: Satin Finished Buckeye Burl Top, Swamp Ash Body Wings, Solid Maple Neck, Royal Ebony Fretboard, Abalone Offset Staggered Dot Inlays, Medium Jumbo Evo Gold Frets
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Should arrive next week!  Not chambered but only weighs 6.45lbs!


----------



## pooshoes

Now this is mine!


----------



## esphil

Anyone here get into the Aries run today? So stoked for my build.

Includes: 
Frets: EVO Jumbo 
Inlay Shape: Staggered Offset Dot with K 
Inlay Material: Abalone 
Luminlay Side Dots 
Fretboard:Royal Ebony 
Headstock Shape: reverse aries
Body: Ash with AAT 
Top: Poplar Burl 
Headstock Finish: will be matched to body wood and color 
Logo: Gold 
Cali Burst Finish: Purple 
Top coat: clear 
Hardware Color: Chrome 
chambered body
bevel delete
7a top
5pc walnut/purple heart neck


----------



## cataclysm_child

HighGain510 said:


> Kiesel was killing me earlier when he posted this one:
> 
> Multiscale Vader 7: Satin Finished Buckeye Burl Top, Swamp Ash Body Wings, Solid Maple Neck, Royal Ebony Fretboard, Abalone Offset Staggered Dot Inlays, Medium Jumbo Evo Gold Frets
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Should arrive next week!  Not chambered but only weighs 6.45lbs!



You just made me change my order which was already pretty similar to this. Went from black pickups to cream, stainless frets to gold, and dropped the trans-black back and sides that I had planned. The only other differences is that mine is an 8, have alder wings, ebony back plate, purple heart stripes in the neck with satin finish and black logo and inlays. Oh, and it's chambered. 
Edit: Oh, and black veneer between top and body. 

Hope it comes out as good as this!!


----------



## KnightBrolaire

This was posted in the vader owners group. I'm in love.


----------



## SwingMachine

KnightBrolaire said:


> This was posted in the vader owners group. I'm in love.




Where is said group? I can't seem to find it and I would love to get the specs on this


----------



## aciek_l

Is this regular walnut top?


----------



## spudmunkey

It's a ziricote top.

For the Aries run, here's the facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/KieselAriesRun/

It was also mentioned in their email newsletter a few days ago, in case you get that.


----------



## esphil

Theres still some spots left in the run! Someone build something before I order a 2nd one. That vader neck is insane, I hope my neck looks as amazing as that, glad I went with the royal ebony.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

SwingMachine said:


> Where is said group? I can't seem to find it and I would love to get the specs on this



it's called Kiesel Vader Guitar and Bass Owners. I can talk to the owner but from what I saw it was black limba wings, black limba neck with either maple or white limba stringers, royal ebony fretboard, ziricote top.


----------



## kuma

I got in on the Aries run. Been wanting the 26.5" scale version, but was holding off hoping they'd add a non-locking trem as an option, but decided I could deal with the Floyd for the good price on the sparkle finish. Went with aqua sparkle, chrome hardware, HSH pickups in white, rosewood board, MoP offset inlays, and sprung for the 5-piece neck as well. Come on February!!


----------



## esphil

kuma said:


> I got in on the Aries run. Been wanting the 26.5" scale version, but was holding off hoping they'd add a non-locking trem as an option, but decided I could deal with the Floyd for the good price on the sparkle finish. Went with aqua sparkle, chrome hardware, HSH pickups in white, rosewood board, MoP offset inlays, and sprung for the 5-piece neck as well. Come on February!!


Man that aqua sparkle was so tempting to me, cant wait to see it. I should have went hsh myself.


----------



## cataclysm_child

Could.Not.Be.Happier.With.How.It.Came.Out!

BUCKEYE BURL MAPLE TOP
CLEAR SATIN MATTE FINISH
3 PIECE LAMINATED BODY
CHAMBERED BODY
5PC MAPLE W/PURPLE HEART S
ROYAL EBONY FRETBOARD
STAGGERED OFFSET DOT INLAY
ACRYLIC BLACK INLAYS
LUMINLAY SIDE DOTS
EVO GOLD med-jumbo FRETS
PICKUP COLOR CREAM
BLACK LOGO
EBONY REAR COVER PLATE


----------



## spudmunkey

Hmm...pics aren't loading for me.


----------



## laxu

cataclysm_child said:


> Could.Not.Be.Happier.With.How.It.Came.Out!
> 
> BUCKEYE BURL MAPLE TOP
> CLEAR SATIN MATTE FINISH
> 3 PIECE LAMINATED BODY
> CHAMBERED BODY
> 5PC MAPLE W/PURPLE HEART S
> ROYAL EBONY FRETBOARD
> STAGGERED OFFSET DOT INLAY
> ACRYLIC BLACK INLAYS
> LUMINLAY SIDE DOTS
> EVO GOLD med-jumbo FRETS
> PICKUP COLOR CREAM
> BLACK LOGO
> EBONY REAR COVER PLATE



That looks really nice!


----------



## cataclysm_child

spudmunkey said:


> Hmm...pics aren't loading for me.



How about now:


----------



## kherman

Happy new Kiesel day, CC. She look sweet. 
Looks like a top notch build.


----------



## BigViolin

Damn, that's sick. Congrats!


----------



## Exit Existence

Beauty!

I'm picking up my first Vader in a few hours from the Fedex Office. I'm so excited! I'll smother this thread with some Kiesel love when I unbox it


----------



## Exit Existence

Got My first Vader yesterday!!! So stoked!

Party in the front:






Business in the back ;-)







Obligatory Jeff Kiesel Arm Pose:


----------



## HighGain510

cataclysm_child said:


> How about now:



That thing is so killer, Mike!


----------



## kherman

Exit Existence said:


> Got My first Vader yesterday!!! So stoked!
> 
> Party in the front:
> 
> Business in the back ;-)



Very sweet!
Congrats!


----------



## ykcirj

Here's a pic of My Cs624. Had it a few months now. Plays great! I had them use tear drop shaped burst with Emerald burst over Deep Moss. It's the single cut guitar I've always wanted. The pickups are Lace Nitro Hemis. It sounds great through my Orange Rockerverb!


----------



## kherman

Cool, ykcirj.
Congrats!


----------



## ShiftPoint

I have a DC700 that has been top notch! The new Becker JB100 has been calling my name!


----------



## KnightBrolaire

My new carvin dc600


----------



## DudeManBrother

Here's my AM6. They put the neck pickup in upside down and they didn't get the saddles under the correct strings, but they were easy to swap over when I got it and put my own strings on and gave it a set up. Plays well. I like it.


----------



## marcwormjim

They're improving.


----------



## prlgmnr

Some people do like an upside down neck pickup.


----------



## sezna

Quick matte finish question...

I have a matte finished vader v7. I really love it, but the finish acquires a shine _very_ fast. I wipe it down after every time I play it, but still, it is not a durable finish. I e-mailed kiesel and asked if anything can be done (I know matte finish is notoriously irreparable, but I figured it was worth a shot...)

Kiesel recommended I use this.
I am kind of skeptical. It is for matte car finishes. Think I should do it?


----------



## DudeManBrother

sezna said:


> Quick matte finish question...
> 
> I have a matte finished vader v7. I really love it, but the finish acquires a shine _very_ fast. I wipe it down after every time I play it, but still, it is not a durable finish. I e-mailed kiesel and asked if anything can be done (I know matte finish is notoriously irreparable, but I figured it was worth a shot...)
> 
> Kiesel recommended I use this.
> I am kind of skeptical. It is for matte car finishes. Think I should do it?


It should work fine. The clear coat is still thick on matte finished guitars, just not shiny.


----------



## Frostbite

Figured I should post this here. Ended up getting a pretty solid deal on a used TL-60 from GC using their 15% off coupon for Memorial Day




I went from almost returning this guitar to absolutely loving it. For some reason it just wasn't clicking with me but I got lazy and decided not to return it lol. It plays better then my Iron Label Ibanez, sounds better, and cost me almost 300 less. I plan to put bareknuckles of some kind in it I just haven't decided what. I really want Juggernauts (Check under profile pic) since I'm pretty sure this is an alder body same as Misha's sig but part of me also want to try ceramic war pigs or painkillers. Decisions


----------



## sezna

Frostbite said:


> Figured I should post this here. Ended up getting a pretty solid deal on a used TL-60 from GC using their 15% off coupon for Memorial Day
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I went from almost returning this guitar to absolutely loving it. For some reason it just wasn't clicking with me but I got lazy and decided not to return it lol. It plays better then my Iron Label Ibanez, sounds better, and cost me almost 300 less. I plan to put bareknuckles of some kind in it I just haven't decided what. I really want Juggernauts (Check under profile pic) since I'm pretty sure this is an alder body same as Misha's sig but part of me also want to try ceramic war pigs or painkillers. Decisions



Looks great! I can't help but notice a striking resemblance to the Fender CS FMT HH Telecaster


----------



## Frostbite

sezna said:


> Looks great! I can't help but notice a striking resemblance to the Fender CS FMT HH Telecaster


That is... disgustingly similar lmao. I feel like that's not a coincidence


----------



## sezna

Frostbite said:


> That is... disgustingly similar lmao. I feel like that's not a coincidence


To be fair, the telecaster shape is not uncommon, but the binding and upper horn modified (I think?) shape are identical haha. This is a pretty unpopular fender model, though (I only know it because I have one...). 

TBH the carvin is probably nicer.


----------



## Frostbite

sezna said:


> To be fair, the telecaster shape is not uncommon, but the binding and upper horn modified (I think?) shape are identical haha. This is a pretty unpopular fender model, though (I only know it because I have one...).
> 
> TBH the carvin is probably nicer.


Is the Fender a carved top? That may be the only major difference since the Carvin is pretty flat without so much as a forearm carve.

Edit: Looked it up and the Fender is indeed carved


----------



## diagrammatiks

The tl is a flat top right. I was just thinking the other day I haven't seen many carved topped tele shapes before.

I kinda want that fender now


----------



## Frostbite

diagrammatiks said:


> The tl is a flat top right. I was just thinking the other day I haven't seen many carved topped tele shapes before.
> 
> I kinda want that fender now


Not sure if there was an option to get it carved back when it was new but mine is indeed flat. And yeah I kind of want the Fender now too haha. Too bad it's not 24 frets. The Chapman ML-3 Pro is a carved top Tele. Only one off the top of my head that comes to mind.


----------



## bostjan

I had a Peavey Tele that followed the same aesthetic: zebra pickups, quilt top, graphtec saddles, humbuckers - I believe it is a set of congruent design features and aesthetics which is fairly common.


----------



## CerealKiller

I really dig the look of that Carvin tl60, but I also got one of those Fenders in amber. Really cool guitar. Sounds and feels great, but neck stability is not a thing in the weather we got here.


----------



## soliloquy

its strange how things change so drastically in such a short amount of time.

not too long ago i had a lot of respect for Carvin/kiesel. but as years are progressing, i'm getting turned off by them as a company. mainly due to the way Jeff handles himself and the customers. regardless of how the guitars play, i'm just not willing to play the CT424 any longer.

i may have gotten it for myself as a graduation present. it maybe beautiful. it may play well. but i'm just not feeling it any longer. and it saddens me as there aren't a whole lot of companies that offer the same specs that interest me for a price that interests me. even if i am doubling the budget of a carvin/kiesel, i'm still coming up empty handed.

regardless, the carvin goes.


----------



## gunch

soliloquy said:


> its strange how things change so drastically in such a short amount of time.
> 
> not too long ago i had a lot of respect for Carvin/kiesel. but as years are progressing, i'm getting turned off by them as a company. mainly due to the way Jeff handles himself and the customers. regardless of how the guitars play, i'm just not willing to play the CT424 any longer.
> 
> i may have gotten it for myself as a graduation present. it maybe beautiful. it may play well. but i'm just not feeling it any longer. and it saddens me as there aren't a whole lot of companies that offer the same specs that interest me for a price that interests me. even if i am doubling the budget of a carvin/kiesel, i'm still coming up empty handed.
> 
> regardless, the carvin goes.



If the headstock still says Carvin I wouldn't get rid of it, The company that made your guitar and the company today are completely separate, different entities.

Your guitar reflects what the company _used_ to be (while not perfect or prestigious, a quietly dignified semi-custom factory direct maker) and IMO that at least counts for something.


----------



## iamaom

silverabyss said:


> If the headstock still says Carvin I wouldn't get rid of it,


Nah dude, get rid of it. It's a relic of the past, you need to move on. I'll take it off your hands, won't even charge for it. No need to thank me, just PM me the mailing info.


----------



## laxu

soliloquy said:


> its strange how things change so drastically in such a short amount of time.
> 
> not too long ago i had a lot of respect for Carvin/kiesel. but as years are progressing, i'm getting turned off by them as a company. mainly due to the way Jeff handles himself and the customers. regardless of how the guitars play, i'm just not willing to play the CT424 any longer.
> 
> i may have gotten it for myself as a graduation present. it maybe beautiful. it may play well. but i'm just not feeling it any longer. and it saddens me as there aren't a whole lot of companies that offer the same specs that interest me for a price that interests me. even if i am doubling the budget of a carvin/kiesel, i'm still coming up empty handed.
> 
> regardless, the carvin goes.



That seems like a silly reason to sell a guitar that you like. I'm sure we all own products that might have been previously owned or made by people we would not like, we just don't know about it. The best way to stick it to Jeff is to simply not buy a Kiesel. Carvin has already had your business, selling your guitar and losing money is only going to hurt you.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

laxu said:


> That seems like a silly reason to sell a guitar that you like. I'm sure we all own products that might have been previously owned or made by people we would not like, we just don't know about it. The best way to stick it to Jeff is to simply not buy a Kiesel. Carvin has already had your business, selling your guitar and losing money is only going to hurt you.


If they have to hold their nose when playing their guitar and it lessens the enjoyment they get out of it, then I don't see it as a "silly reason."


----------



## Wolfhorsky

As crazy as it seems @soliloquy has his own reasons. As the matter of fact, us hobbists use guitars to have some fun. When there is no fun factor, no bonding, no chemistry, just sell it and move on. Life is too short to compromise on things that should give us some joy.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Same reason I sold my Kiesels after I had my fallout with them. Guitars were sick, and I had an incredibly hard time finding a good 8 string to replace my Vader 8 after selling it. But if the person doesn't feel like they enjoy their instrument anymore because of events or reasons of their own, that's still valid.


----------



## purpledc

laxu said:


> That seems like a silly reason to sell a guitar that you like. I'm sure we all own products that might have been previously owned or made by people we would not like, we just don't know about it. The best way to stick it to Jeff is to simply not buy a Kiesel. Carvin has already had your business, selling your guitar and losing money is only going to hurt you.




If I chose to not play a guitar because of such hang ups, I probably would be a drummer.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

soliloquy said:


> its strange how things change so drastically in such a short amount of time.
> 
> not too long ago i had a lot of respect for Carvin/kiesel. but as years are progressing, i'm getting turned off by them as a company. mainly due to the way Jeff handles himself and the customers. regardless of how the guitars play, i'm just not willing to play the CT424 any longer.
> 
> i may have gotten it for myself as a graduation present. it maybe beautiful. it may play well. but i'm just not feeling it any longer. and it saddens me as there aren't a whole lot of companies that offer the same specs that interest me for a price that interests me. even if i am doubling the budget of a carvin/kiesel, i'm still coming up empty handed.
> 
> regardless, the carvin goes.



Well you probably know my name (now banned from the Kiesel BBS for a BS reason btw), but I am feeling the EXACT same way. I have a recital coming up on Nov 12, and as good as my Kiesel and Carvin play, I am not feeling em since Jeff's horrible attitude since the announcement of the death of the 22 pole piece pickups. The way he announced that was such a slap in the face of everyone who had been supporting the company for MUCH longer than I have (someone like Doctor Turn for example). I have literally picked up my JB200 once, and since I bought it before the split, I still feel like I can play it but my V220 (Kiesel branded)? Havent touched it. Only been playing my E-II and Ibanezes recently.


----------



## crankyrayhanky

MatiasTolkki said:


> Well you probably know my name (now banned from the Kiesel BBS for a BS reason btw), but I am feeling the EXACT same way. I have a recital coming up on Nov 12, and as good as my Kiesel and Carvin play, *I am not feeling em since Jeff's horrible attitude since the announcement of the death of the 22 pole piece pickups*. The way he announced that was such a slap in the face of everyone who had been supporting the company for MUCH longer than I have (someone like Doctor Turn for example). I have literally picked up my JB200 once, and since I bought it before the split, I still feel like I can play it but my V220 (Kiesel branded)? Havent touched it. Only been playing my E-II and Ibanezes recently.



What was his attitude? Was it something like "I'm not making these anymore and that's how it is"?
It is a business after all. Like when you run a restaurant, putting out a big menu is usually not a great idea. Kiesel has a huge menu with constant new offerings, sometimes you have to chop things out, no?

I love my AM7. Want some more Kiesel in my life


----------



## KOFI

soliloquy said:


> its strange how things change so drastically in such a short amount of time.
> 
> not too long ago i had a lot of respect for Carvin/kiesel. but as years are progressing, i'm getting turned off by them as a company. mainly due to the way Jeff handles himself and the customers. regardless of how the guitars play, i'm just not willing to play the CT424 any longer.
> 
> i may have gotten it for myself as a graduation present. it maybe beautiful. it may play well. but i'm just not feeling it any longer. and it saddens me as there aren't a whole lot of companies that offer the same specs that interest me for a price that interests me. even if i am doubling the budget of a carvin/kiesel, i'm still coming up empty handed.
> 
> regardless, the carvin goes.



I'm kind of in the same boat as you but I love my Carvin and I will not stop playing it. It really is a good guitar. One of the best ones I ever played. I just won't won't promote Carvin/Kiesel like I once did.

I think Jeff is one arrogant somebody. I watched a few of his facebook videos and the narcissism just oozes out. I won't deny he can build a guitar and seems like he has taken the company to another level. It's his personality that turns me off. Humbleness goes a long way in my book.

He acts like a man child. He loves his fans and is your best friend as long as you give him praise but the minute you criticize 1 little thing about "his" company, it's all over. And the constant use of "my guys" drives me insane.

I could go on and on. I can't stand his attitude. I'll always cherish my pre-split Carvin guitar but I don't think I can see myself buying a Kiesel. I don't have a desire to support Jeff's company.


----------



## KOFI

And another thing about Jeff is the double talk.

I've heard him say on several occasions "I'm doing all of this for you guys" and a few minutes later followed by "I'm only building guitars that's I'm interested in and if you don't like it stop following me" It's like he's doing us a big favor and then saying screw you I'm doing what I want with or without you. He needs to work on some PR skills. 

I can't quite pinpoint what it is...I just think everything about his personality turns me off. 

I think I vented enough.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

crankyrayhanky said:


> What was his attitude? Was it something like "I'm not making these anymore and that's how it is"?
> It is a business after all. Like when you run a restaurant, putting out a big menu is usually not a great idea. Kiesel has a huge menu with constant new offerings, sometimes you have to chop things out, no?
> 
> I love my AM7. Want some more Kiesel in my life



Basically, Jeff was like "Oh i have to tell you guys. The 22 pole piece pickups are being phased out. I know a lot of people are going to be upset." End of comment. Also, it wasn't all about WHAT he said rather than HOW he said it. It was full of Jeff's typical full of himself, hating on the people who supported the company for a long time (from the Carvin days).


----------



## MatiasTolkki

KOFI said:


> I could go on and on. I can't stand his attitude. I'll always cherish my pre-split Carvin guitar but I don't think I can see myself buying a Kiesel. I don't have a desire to support Jeff's company.



I have a Kiesel (a V220) and tbh, the way the paint came chipped in the trem cavity and the way you can see the white primer coats on the neck where they SHOULD have painted but didn't, I was pretty disappointed compared to my JB200C, which just had a little excess paint in the trem cavity. I mean the guitar plays GREAT but that situation compiled with the discontinuation of the M series pickups means no more kiesels for me. 

Now to be fair, I DID buy the V220 a year ago. Maybe things have changed? Not sure.


----------



## spudmunkey

crankyrayhanky said:


> What was his attitude? Was it something like "I'm not making these anymore and that's how it is"?
> It is a business after all. Like when you run a restaurant, putting out a big menu is usually not a great idea. Kiesel has a huge menu with constant new offerings, sometimes you have to chop things out, no?
> 
> I love my AM7. Want some more Kiesel in my life





MatiasTolkki said:


> Basically, Jeff was like "Oh i have to tell you guys. The 22 pole piece pickups are being phased out. I know a lot of people are going to be upset." End of comment. Also, it wasn't all about WHAT he said rather than HOW he said it. It was full of Jeff's typical full of himself, hating on the people who supported the company for a long time (from the Carvin days).



Well...I mean...actually, no.

He started by talking about the two new pickups they are working on (yes, I understand they aren't ready yet...but the other pickups weren't pulled without notice yet either...they are still available...so nothing's changed from 3 weeks ago in terms of availability), including the vintage-voiced ones from his dad, which he seemed excited about (and used those exact words). He said he enjoys being able to work on projects with his dad, and mentioned that they were still looking for a purchaser so that his dad could step out of that role and mentioned how cool it would be for him to be able to just "play" and design a new model of guitar.

And then he, verbatim, said:
"And also for you guys that love the 22 pole piece pickups, I am giving you guys a heads up that we are not going to be restocking any of the parts for them, so once they are gone, they are gone. Me and my dad made that decision together. He actually brought it up. It was his idea, and I said, 'yeah, that's...I'm good with that.' We will not be making those at some point. So if you love 'em, go online a buy 'em, buy several sets; I'm not offering any discounts because I'm discontinuing them at some point, so as soon as they are gone, they are gone. I don't know if that's 3 months, or a year and a half. I don't know, but somewhere in that ballpark."

Boy, you can just feel the "hating on the people who supported the company", can't you?






And you mention you were banned for "some BS reason"...I'm not a mod or anything, but you were basically saying you were going to spam their social media presence with memes that insult the VP of the company, calling him a liar (a specific word you used). I remember you also asked a question in a very accusatory/confrontational manner on a open-to-thepublic live Q&A video and when they skipped your question, you had a public hissy fit and tried to poke the chest of the social media guy, accusing him of purposely skipping your question because jeff can't "handle the truth" or something along those lines.

Not to mention anytime someone mentioned the word "lithium" on their forum and Facebook, which I'm sure nobody needs to be reminded are both branches of their marketing and the public online presence of the company, you couldn't just say you "don't like them" or "they don't sound good for X and Y types of music"...instead you had to preach and write manifestos about how they were about the worst pickups you've ever heard, in ways that were likely insulting to their customers who did like them. Even going from "I don't like Stanley staplers" to "Stanley brand staplers suck" is one thing...but it's another thing to go to "Stanley staplers are shit compared to Swingline. I don't know why anyone would want those crappy Stanley staplers, and those that do are likely stupid and only staple shitty romance novels".

Frankly, I'm surprised it took as long as it did.


----------



## spudmunkey

KOFI said:


> And another thing about Jeff is the double talk.
> 
> I've heard him say on several occasions "I'm doing all of this for you guys" and a few minutes later followed by "I'm only building guitars that's I'm interested in and if you don't like it stop following me" It's like he's doing us a big favor and then saying screw you I'm doing what I want with or without you. He needs to work on some PR skills.



I can see why his personality/mannerisms are a turn off to some(many?), but those two comments are not talking about the same topics. Offering discounted runs is something he does "for you guys". Not wanting to offer 24.75" scale is "I want to build things I like". I don't see that as double-talk. Offering more new no-upcharge colors and offering more custom (even if high-dollar) options is "for you guys", and not offering an SG-alike is "I want to build things I like".


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Except that, he said, during the split, the old pickups were going nowhere, then all of a sudden, "Oh they're going. Tough luck." That is lying, or even if you want to give the benefit of the doubt, double speak.

If you noticed in ANY of the posts I mentioned about memes, the way I wrote them was in a joking way. Someone asked for a meme of Jason Becker and the 22 pole piece pickups and I did a quick one for someone. I never said I was going to spam memes either, I said maybe i should post some memes to get Jeff's attention, since he didn't seem interested in listening to anyone on the forums anyway.

And yes, i've always had very strong hate for the lithiums. Since when is it a problem to give my opinion of them? It's not like people are getting the stronger opinions about them anyway (but it's okay to gush over them like a beautiful woman. Hypocrisy anyone?). Who else was as vocal as me in terms of taking a shotgun to the kneecaps of those ice picks? I didn't see anyone besides me doing it, and while you may disagree with my methods, people need to hear from people who absolutely despise them like I do. Sure I may be in the minority, but if my anti-lithium sentiments helped sway even 1 person away from them, I am completely happy with that (and you can't prove that it DIDN'T change anyone's opinion, nor can I prove it did. This is just how I feel about it).


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> Except that, he said, during the split, the old pickups were going nowhere, then all of a sudden, "Oh they're going. Tough luck." That is lying, or even if you want to give the benefit of the doubt, double speak.



Nearly 3 years later. i feel like that's ample warning, and an allowable timeframe to change a mind. Jaguar said they would never build an SUV. They've got 2 now. Ferrari said the same thing, but even in stronger terms. Now the CEO says one will "probably happen".



MatiasTolkki said:


> I never said I was going to spam memes either, I said maybe i should post some memes to get Jeff's attention, since he didn't seem interested in listening to anyone on the forums anyway.



OK, so the word "spam" was hyperbole...but maybe your posts could be taken in a joking manner if it didn't continue post after post, through several posts across several pages. I don't recall who made it, but others participated including making ones that disparaged current endorsed artists. I mean...you see *why* they didn't tolerate that, right? You show up on my lawn with a blown-up photo of my mother, scribbled with sharpie to give her a black eye, missing tooth and evil eye brows (besides the ones she already has  ), and...well...you'd have to expect what was coming to you, right?



MatiasTolkki said:


> And yes, i've always had very strong hate for the lithiums. Since when is it a problem to give my opinion of them? It's not like people are getting the stronger opinions about them anyway (but it's okay to gush over them like a beautiful woman. Hypocrisy anyone?). Who else was as vocal as me in terms of taking a shotgun to the kneecaps of those ice picks? I didn't see anyone besides me doing it, and while you may disagree with my methods, people need to hear from people who absolutely despise them like I do. Sure I may be in the minority, but if my anti-lithium sentiments helped sway even 1 person away from them, I am completely happy with that (and you can't prove that it DIDN'T change anyone's opinion, nor can I prove it did. This is just how I feel about it).



Well, you feel the way you do and there's no reason to deny or argue with that at all, but...I mean...a suicide bomber doesn't live to fight another day, and that thread was deleted (which again, is nothing new...it's always been a heavily moderated forum for years and years).

Just to give context, I don't know if you saw the post, but around page 15 I posted some stats on the thread. nearly 60% of the posts in the thread were from the same 2 people across those 15 pages, and I think you had 40% of the posts in the thread at that time. After that page the number of unique posters continued to drop. In total I think there were about 30 people who posted in that thread...out of the roughly 12,000+ registered users. So even if all 30 were lamenting the loss, that's about 0.2%. Even when I posted it on facebook in the group with 16,000+ members and many more active members, I think there was less than 80 total reactions and maybe 50 post replies. Even if everyone who posted and reacted was a unique member and everyone lamented the loss, that's still a whopping 0.8%.

Am I saying these folks don't matter? Of course not. but they have a business to run, and I can imagine seeing Carvin Audio fold put the fear of god in their hearts. Low-demand products that take unique parts *should* be the first things to be trimmed from the product offering.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Well I did spend a good chunk of time talking to Mike last night (before i went to sleep, at like 1am here) and he was happy we talked it out calmly and everything. I made no qualms about being banned btw, I think it's a meh reason, but that's me. that's just my own perception of it, but if they wanna ban me that's fine. I even told Mike straight from the outset that I don't expect to be unbanned, I just wanna give my perspective of things and how Jeff, in the very first livestream mentioning the pickup issue, seemed to be taking a veiled shot at everyone who was going to be upset over it, loyal customers who have bought more than one guitar from them. 

That's a dead conversation though, both of us already went through that whole 20-something page now-deleted thread discussing that and we dont have to rehash that whole thing all over again 

Yeah I saw that post, and I knew full well I was posting the most. I basically replied to every last person who posted  When someone said something, I felt the desire to reply to certain people, and it turned out I replied a LOT. That doesn't bother me though. 

Oh I know the business side of it, and understand the situation. I was riled up, pissed off, and all sorts of other things over it. Yeah I let my temper get the best of me and I could've chosen different ways to word things, but everyone knows that when you see red in your eyes, you kinda don't keep control on the things you say


----------



## marcwormjim

The only thing here that still surprises me is how late in the game Carvin fans are noticing that Jeff Kiesel has more in common with Kim Jong Un than he does with his dad.

He uses the title he inherited to put more effort into policing his public image than retaining the inherited customer base, and regularly demands respect he hasn't earned from potential customers who are only present because they're fans of his dad. He also acts on the belief that publicly shaming customers who _dare _to share a negative experience is benevolent.

He and his paid goons are banned from this site for precisely the above behavior, and the long-time posters at the former CarvinBBS generally fail to see that Jeff is only paying to maintain their playground because his dad built it - He has zero interest in acknowledging the people using it until he hears that there's dissent there to be quelled with bannings, thread deletions, and a pinned thread specifying that "*respect" is mandated*.

I do. not. understand posters saying "I used to love Carvin" or "Carvin's gone downhill" - Carvin Guitars has not existed since 2015. It ended there. Just because its legacy has been sunsetted over the past two and a half years is no reason to pretend Mark Kiesel's Carvin Guitars has been operating this whole time from under a beveled coat of neon-burst paint.

People need to understand that we all actually *still* love Carvin, for the same reason you still love any deceased loved one: Just because Jeff is defiling grandpa's corpse is no reason to blame grandpa for what you're seeing. Remember your lost loved ones the way they were, and not for who's currently living in their house and letting the grass die - There's a new name on the mailbox, anyway.

And you have to just let the brand go. It's not going to get better. You're dealing with the mentality of a guy who's walking around going "look at me, I'm bad", and you're going, "I'm looking at you. You're bad."


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Well, i DID poke the bear by saying I wanted to knock some sense into Jeff over his bad decisions of late but still, anyone with 2 brain cells would know that I didnt mean that literally and that phrase is commonplace. 

I have been griping about Jeff for 2 years now, basically since the split, because he spent so much time bashing Ibanez and "Asian" guitar makers, lumping the great MIJ stuff of ESP, Tokai, Ibanez, Sugi, etc with cheap Chinese stuff. I have been VERY vocal about that, and it was the thing that turned me against Jeff in the beginning. Then those horrible damn lithium pickups, jesus. Ibanez V7/V8s sound better than those things. 

Yes, we all love CARVIN guitars, not Jeff Kiesel. We complain because we want CARVIN guitars. I guess even with that stupid Kiesel logo, my V220 is MARK'S design so I can still use it without feeling bad?


----------



## marcwormjim

I hazard to guess that most of us live with guilt worse than a Kiesel logo brings to our luxury furniture.


----------



## diagrammatiks

marcwormjim said:


> The only thing here that still surprises me is how late in the game Carvin fans are noticing that Jeff Kiesel has more in common with Kim Jong Un than he does with his dad.
> 
> He uses the title he inherited to put more effort into policing his public image than retaining the inherited customer base, and regularly demands respect he hasn't earned from potential customers who are only present because they're fans of his dad. He also acts on the belief that publicly shaming customers who _dare _to share a negative experience is benevolent.
> 
> He and his paid goons are banned from this site for precisely the above behavior, and the long-time posters at the former CarvinBBS generally fail to see that Jeff is only paying to maintain their playground because his dad built it - He has zero interest in acknowledging the people using it until he hears that there's dissent there to be quelled with bannings, thread deletions, and a pinned thread specifying that "*respect" is mandated*.
> 
> I do. not. understand posters saying "I used to love Carvin" or "Carvin's gone downhill" - Carvin Guitars has not existed since 2015. It ended there. Just because its legacy has been sunsetted over the past two and a half years is no reason to pretend Mark Kiesel's Carvin Guitars has been operating this whole time from under a beveled coat of neon-burst paint.
> 
> People need to understand that we all actually *still* love Carvin, for the same reason you still love any deceased loved one: Just because Jeff is defiling grandpa's corpse is no reason to blame grandpa for what you're seeing. Remember your lost loved ones the way they were, and not for who's currently living in their house and letting the grass die - There's a new name on the mailbox, anyway.
> 
> And you have to just let the brand go. It's not going to get better. You're dealing with the mentality of a guy who's walking around going "look at me, I'm bad", and you're going, "I'm looking at you. You're bad."



Honestly though, I don't think I really have a problem with his plan here. 
If marketing came to me with a plan and said we can expand our user base to our current number + 50% at the cost of losing all of the users we currently have...There's a lot of industries that should definitely go for that plan. As long as the number of new users he can acquire is more then the ones he will lose there's not really a downside.
The only problem is implementing it poorly and risking making every angry.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

marcwormjim said:


> I hazard to guess that most of us live with guilt worse than a Kiesel logo brings to our luxury furniture.



Probably so lol


----------



## MatiasTolkki

diagrammatiks said:


> Honestly though, I don't think I really have a problem with his plan here.
> If marketing came to me with a plan and said we can expand our user base to our current number + 50% at the cost of losing all of the users we currently have...There's a lot of industries that should definitely go for that plan. As long as the number of new users he can acquire is more then the ones he will lose there's not really a downside.
> The only problem is implementing it poorly and risking making every angry.



I dont think he cares because it seems sales have never been better, which only validates his own ego i guess.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

BTW someone mentioned that the Kiesel guys have been banned from here. When did that happen? Sorry I'm late to the party on that story :/


----------



## laxu

MatiasTolkki said:


> Then those horrible damn lithium pickups, jesus. Ibanez V7/V8s sound better than those things.



The Lithiums are fine and sound nothing like the Ibanez V7/V8. Maybe you just had them in a guitar that was totally ill suited for what are really bright, clear and somewhat low mid scooped pickups?

I can understand not liking Jeff as a person. He's opinionated and sometimes uses shit tactics like putting down other manufacturers by saying how his brand does things better. He has done a fair bit in creating revived interest in Carvin/Kiesel. Positioning it more towards the metal players has been a great business move for them. Just stop watching his videos on Facebook and you'll be fine.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

laxu said:


> The Lithiums are fine and sound nothing like the Ibanez V7/V8. Maybe you just had them in a guitar that was totally ill suited for what are really bright, clear and somewhat low mid scooped pickups?
> 
> I can understand not liking Jeff as a person. He's opinionated and sometimes uses shit tactics like putting down other manufacturers by saying how his brand does things better. He has done a fair bit in creating revived interest in Carvin/Kiesel. Positioning it more towards the metal players has been a great business move for them. Just stop watching his videos on Facebook and you'll be fine.



I tried the K14s in a DC727, quilted maple top and Alder body (I think) and an Aries 6 with a flame maple top and mahogany body. The DC727 K14s (Drop A) sounded harsh and unusable. The Aries 6, because it was downtuned to drop C, sounded okay, but I cannot stand those pickups at all. I have found great settings for my guitars, and the Lithiums can't do what I want of them. Clean? sure. Downtuned chug? check. Traditional heavy metal with a boomy low end? Absolutely not.


----------



## KOFI

The Lithiums sound awful for any type of classic rock sound.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

KOFI said:


> The Lithiums sound awful for any type of classic rock sound.



Yeah they sound like ice picks trying to destroy your ear drums. And I'm not even trying for a total George Lynch sound or anything. I just like a rich, warm tone from all of my pickups, with a little extra clarity in the bridge. Carvin M22SD/V pups did that wonderfully, but Kim Jong Jeffe is getting rid of them. My other pups of choice are the Dimarzio SD and Evolutions. If I want something with a little less output, the AT1 is my fav pickup in the "I dont need a screamer" category.


----------



## KOFI

MatiasTolkki said:


> Yeah they sound like ice picks trying to destroy your ear drums.


That's about the best way to describe them. I don't even think they sound very good playing clean. They are harsh. A friend has a Kiesel with Lithiums and we spent hours adjusting the amp's EQ. Finally he replaced the pickups. Fixed the problem. I'm not sure what he put in. He is constantly buying and selling guitars, parts and everything in between. I think he has a box with about 50+ pickups in it.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

KOFI said:


> That's about the best way to describe them. I don't even think they sound very good playing clean. They are harsh. A friend has a Kiesel with Lithiums and we spent hours adjusting the amp's EQ. Finally he replaced the pickups. Fixed the problem. I'm not sure what he put in. He is constantly buying and selling guitars, parts and everything in between. I think he has a box with about 50+ pickups in it.



The sad thing is, because the loss of the old pickups, you basically HAVE to get the lithiums, unless you wanna do some weird combo of a Gambale neck with a greg howe parallax, or the holdsworths. Being that I am an overseas customer for Kiesel, the cost of buying pickups new here in japan is way too high to even justify buying another one. Sure I could find them for cheaper SOME places or even used for that matter, but a custom order instrument should be set the way I want it from the beginning. Then that stupid garbage of "if you want your own pickups in it, no returns plus you have to pay us 50 bucks extra." I get the surcharge, but jesus, you rip away all of our options then if we want something different, you prevent us from returning it even if you screw it up? And Kim Jong Jeffe thinks he's being good to the customers? I may pay a LOT more for an ESP custom shop, but at least I know that it'll be EXACTLY as I want it from the start.


----------



## diagrammatiks

MatiasTolkki said:


> The sad thing is, because the loss of the old pickups, you basically HAVE to get the lithiums, unless you wanna do some weird combo of a Gambale neck with a greg howe parallax, or the holdsworths. Being that I am an overseas customer for Kiesel, the cost of buying pickups new here in japan is way too high to even justify buying another one. Sure I could find them for cheaper SOME places or even used for that matter, but a custom order instrument should be set the way I want it from the beginning. Then that stupid garbage of "if you want your own pickups in it, no returns plus you have to pay us 50 bucks extra." I get the surcharge, but jesus, you rip away all of our options then if we want something different, you prevent us from returning it even if you screw it up? And Kim Jong Jeffe thinks he's being good to the customers? I may pay a LOT more for an ESP custom shop, but at least I know that it'll be EXACTLY as I want it from the start.



I understand the anger of having a favorite brand go in a weird direction but like its 2017...there's a ton of builders doing the same type of stuff now.


----------



## KOFI

laxu said:


> I can understand not liking Jeff as a person. He's opinionated and sometimes uses shit tactics like putting down other manufacturers by saying how his brand does things better. He has done a fair bit in creating revived interest in Carvin/Kiesel. Positioning it more towards the metal players has been a great business move for them. Just stop watching his videos on Facebook and you'll be fine.



I agree with you there. Kiesel does make great products and it seems Jeff is taking the company to new levels. I personally don't care for the new models. It's not my cup of tea. Big deal.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

diagrammatiks said:


> I understand the anger of having a favorite brand go in a weird direction but like its 2017...there's a ton of builders doing the same type of stuff now.



Oh yeah I know. i'm actually going to get a Palm bay Cyclone when i get the money together.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

KOFI said:


> I agree with you there. Kiesel does make great products and it seems Jeff is taking the company to new levels. I personally don't care for the new models. It's not my cup of tea. Big deal.



Although, I have to say, my CARVIN JB200C does feel a LOT better than my Kiesel V220C. I dont know what it is, but the JB200C that I got before the split just has something special about it.


----------



## KOFI

MatiasTolkki said:


> The sad thing is, because the loss of the old pickups, you basically HAVE to get the lithiums, unless you wanna do some weird combo of a Gambale neck with a greg howe parallax, or the holdsworths. Being that I am an overseas customer for Kiesel, the cost of buying pickups new here in japan is way too high to even justify buying another one. Sure I could find them for cheaper SOME places or even used for that matter, but a custom order instrument should be set the way I want it from the beginning. Then that stupid garbage of "if you want your own pickups in it, no returns plus you have to pay us 50 bucks extra." I get the surcharge, but jesus, you rip away all of our options then if we want something different, you prevent us from returning it even if you screw it up? And Kim Jong Jeffe thinks he's being good to the customers? I may pay a LOT more for an ESP custom shop, but at least I know that it'll be EXACTLY as I want it from the start.


I can understand it being non-returnable but the $50 upcharge is outrageous. It's not that hard to wire different brands of pickups. All it takes is a quick google search of wiring color codes.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

So, time for some positive vibes, here are my JB200C and V220C. If you knew me on the Kiesel BBS this won't be new to you, but just thought I'd kinda put a positive spin since i need to stop griping about this crap lol


----------



## KOFI

MatiasTolkki said:


> Although, I have to say, my CARVIN JB200C does feel a LOT better than my Kiesel V220C. I dont know what it is, but the JB200C that I got before the split just has something special about it.


I've only played 1 Carvin and 1 Kiesel. Both feel the same to me. Maybe your Kiesel was a bust, I don't know? My limited exposure doesn't really offer a good opinion or review


----------



## MatiasTolkki

KOFI said:


> I can understand it being non-returnable but the $50 upcharge is outrageous. It's not that hard to wire different brands of pickups. All it takes is a quick google search of wiring color codes.



I can understand that position. Very easy to deal with that. Not to mention they want you to send in the pickups, something an international customer really can't do, then it voiding the 10 day return, especially when they have taken away just about every pickup option? That's why i think the non-returnable status is messed up. Had it been before the 22 pole piece pup phase out, I could TOTALLY understand that, but with so few choices now...


----------



## KOFI

Positive vibes are good. I think we got the negative out of our systems. 

Nice guitars!


----------



## MatiasTolkki

KOFI said:


> I've only played 1 Carvin and 1 Kiesel. Both feel the same to me. Maybe your Kiesel was a bust, I don't know? My limited exposure doesn't really offer a good opinion or review



Well it doesnt play poorly at all. Plays really good. I think the issue is more to the fact that there were some visual issues (painted chipped in the back of the trem cavity and the inability of the painter to paint the lines cleanly at the neck, as I have a tung oiled neck so you can see some of the primer around the neck joint). Compared to the quality of my JB200? Yeah, I think they needed to be MUCH more careful.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

KOFI said:


> Positive vibes are good. I think we got the negative out of our systems.
> 
> Nice guitars!



Thanks  I still think the V220 is one of the coolest V designs Mark ever came up with, and that exists today.


----------



## xzacx

diagrammatiks said:


> Honestly though, I don't think I really have a problem with his plan here.
> If marketing came to me with a plan and said we can expand our user base to our current number + 50% at the cost of losing all of the users we currently have...There's a lot of industries that should definitely go for that plan. As long as the number of new users he can acquire is more then the ones he will lose there's not really a downside.
> The only problem is implementing it poorly and risking making every angry.



I think Jeff has done a lot of things right, business wise. Catering to a niche market like the ERG community, that actually buys gear, was really smart. If only he was able to just be a little more humble and low-key about things, and not alienate so many people along the way. I think the way he engages with fans and does those videos regularly is great - but why be so unlikable in the process? I defeats the whole point of the accessibility IMO.


----------



## ThePIGI King

If 9 strings become my go to here soon, I severely hope Kiesel releases a V9. There's no fairly affordable headless 9's on the market.

I know, talk about niche, but still, a man can dream


----------



## diagrammatiks

xzacx said:


> I think Jeff has done a lot of things right, business wise. Catering to a niche market like the ERG community, that actually buys gear, was really smart. If only he was able to just be a little more humble and low-key about things, and not alienate so many people along the way. I think the way he engages with fans and does those videos regularly is great - but why be so unlikable in the process? I defeats the whole point of the accessibility IMO.



Ya I think going after the niche is the right decision. He’s selling more ergs then carvin ever sold guitars. Wish more companies would get with the program. There have been more then a few companies that have put out cool guitars that have no plans for seven strings. Y


----------



## crankyrayhanky

Still not seeing the issue? Buy up the old stock pickups if they float your boat. Or just order pickups from elsewhere and ship it directly to them during a build- that's a great option.

I love a great pickup too, but there's so many options there I don't get how one could get so hyped up.

BTW, I dig the lithiums, they work great for tight modern rock/metal. Not everyone will agree, but that's the case with any pickup.


----------



## marcwormjim

MatiasTolkki said:


> BTW someone mentioned that the Kiesel guys have been banned from here. When did that happen? Sorry I'm late to the party on that story :/



That ugliness should probably stay in the past...Perhaps spoiler tags are the compromise:



Spoiler



Kiesel paid for an ad banner here and immediately began PMing mods with demands to make any posts presenting the brand in a negative light disappear. Jeff himself ended up registering just to call out users by their full names when they posted their negative dealings with the company (e.g. sales people being rude, orders taking three months longer than quoted, a salesman nonchalantly telling a guy that his guitar wouldn’t be ready until after NAMM because they took parts from it off to put on a display guitar, several guys sending guitars back to Kiesel for repairs or rebuilds, not hearing back, then calling and being told that there was nothing wrong with their guitar and that it was being shipped back to them without the option of a refund...etc. At least two dudes here were warned over the phone that they would be banned from purchasing for life if they shared their negative experiences online, and Jeff once personally posted to tell a screwed customer to “just sell your guitar for profit” after refusing to reattempt a failed color-match with a huge upcharge).

All known Carvin/Kiesel employees registered here were banned, with the narrative presented by staff on the Carvin BBS being that Kiesel merely dumped their ss.org sponsorship, that nothing else noteworthy preceded or followed it, and that ss.org sucks anyway.

...Not that any of that diminishes the monthly “headless multicale ergo fanned fret hipshot Kiesel NGD djent” threads here, nor the “for sale” threads that tend to pop up a month later.


----------



## USMarine75

Just wanted to post some more positive Kiesel love and stir the pot bahaha.


----------



## marcwormjim

Looks like Marty Friedman has his next gearwhore-endorsement waiting for him.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

marcwormjim said:


> That ugliness should probably stay in the past...Perhaps spoiler tags are the compromise



Thanks for that explanation marc. Yeah, I've heard of some of those stories, i.e. the NAMM parts thing. Even as nice as my V220 is, it didn't arrive without it's issues, and there was a part of me that DID want to send it back, but the issues were cosmetic only and you had to look really close to notice them. Guitar plays fine and sounds good... Doesn't beat my JB200 though lol

I cant believe that sort of crap happened. Totally unprofessional by people who pride themselves on being professional.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

marcwormjim said:


> Looks like Marty Friedman has his next gearwhore-endorsement waiting for him.



Marty would take any endorsement as long as the company fellated him before, during and after signing the contract *runs and hides*


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

George Lynch and Marty Friedman are gear whores supreme, but they both kick major fucking ass on the guitar. They haven't lost it like a lot of guitarists from their era.


----------



## marcwormjim

I'd go so far as to say they continue to improve.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

marcwormjim said:


> I'd go so far as to say they continue to improve.



I dunno man, I saw Dokken at Loud Park last year and while George did a great job, he's got quite a few off nights.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

So I just watched the first part of the last livestream Kim Jong Jeffe did, and he seems bewildered as to why he's taking flak for the end of the 22 pole piece pickups... The density is strong with him.


----------



## laxu

KOFI said:


> That's about the best way to describe them. I don't even think they sound very good playing clean. They are harsh. A friend has a Kiesel with Lithiums and we spent hours adjusting the amp's EQ. Finally he replaced the pickups. Fixed the problem. I'm not sure what he put in. He is constantly buying and selling guitars, parts and everything in between. I think he has a box with about 50+ pickups in it.



I don’t agree with this. They are very bright but that allows them to retain clarity always. I went back and forth with a few of my guitars and my mahogany body, maple neck Aries AM7 and ultimately figured that a bit of boost in the low mids was what I needed with that guitar. Because it is bright I find the tone knob a lot more useful than many other guitars.

Ash would probably be the worst body wood to choose with these pickups because it tends to have a mid scoop.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

laxu said:


> I don’t agree with this. They are very bright but that allows them to retain clarity always. I went back and forth with a few of my guitars and my mahogany body, maple neck Aries AM7 and ultimately figured that a bit of boost in the low mids was what I needed with that guitar. Because it is bright I find the tone knob a lot more useful than many other guitars.
> 
> Ash would probably be the worst body wood to choose with these pickups because it tends to have a mid scoop.



Well, for me, I don't need massive amounts of clarity, that's a modern metal/djent/faux prog thing. I like the tones guitarists got in the 80s, which is why the M22 pups work so well for me. They have that 80s bite with a boomy low end. The Lithiums don't have enough of that low end to be worth my while, plus that ice pick peak in the mid-highs is just YUCK. 

It's funny because most of the guitarists I like nowadays use EMGs, and I can't stand those.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

MatiasTolkki said:


> I dunno man, I saw Dokken at Loud Park last year and while George did a great job, he's got quite a few off nights.


That seems to be from about 2008-2011 or so. I would agree that during that period, he did have some pretty meh performances from what I saw on YouTube. His more recent stuff, and his output as of the past three years or so, have been stellar.


----------



## DudeManBrother

My opinion on the Lithium pickups might be due to the fact that I bought a multi scale, so replacement pickups is a bit more cumbersome to purchase: A pickup is slugs, poles, wraps of copper and a magnet. No magic in them. Lower a pickup and it reduces output, which increases bass and reduces clarity. Raise a pole to re-increase the output, which reduces bass and increases clarity, for that particular string. 
The real shortcomings IMO is the electrinics used. Buy lower resistance potentiometers and get some different capacitors to try out. You can completely alter the sound. If it still wasn’t working for you, then try a different magnet. The alnico V they use in lithium’s should be able to easily produce an 80’s sound, but you can easily get an alnico II, or grab an alnico VIII for a completely different voice. 
If the materials used are quality, then the real shortcoming is our own imagination, and desire to expiriment with different parts. 
It reminds me of an interview with a world class golfer from the 1950’s who got yelled at by his wife for buying a new driver every year, when they barely made enough money to eat and pay for hotel rooms during the tour circuit. This was in the days when drivers were made from persimmon wood; so he bought a rasp and shaped his driver exactly as he wanted it after a few range visits and revisions. He never purchased another driver again.


----------



## diagrammatiks

DudeManBrother said:


> My opinion on the Lithium pickups might be due to the fact that I bought a multi scale, so replacement pickups is a bit more cumbersome to purchase: A pickup is slugs, poles, wraps of copper and a magnet. No magic in them. Lower a pickup and it reduces output, which increases bass and reduces clarity. Raise a pole to re-increase the output, which reduces bass and increases clarity, for that particular string.
> The real shortcomings IMO is the electrinics used. Buy lower resistance potentiometers and get some different capacitors to try out. You can completely alter the sound. If it still wasn’t working for you, then try a different magnet. The alnico V they use in lithium’s should be able to easily produce an 80’s sound, but you can easily get an alnico II, or grab an alnico VIII for a completely different voice.
> If the materials used are quality, then the real shortcoming is our own imagination, and desire to expiriment with different parts.
> It reminds me of an interview with a world class golfer from the 1950’s who got yelled at by his wife for buying a new driver every year, when they barely made enough money to eat and pay for hotel rooms during the tour circuit. This was in the days when drivers were made from persimmon wood; so he bought a rasp and shaped his driver exactly as he wanted it after a few range visits and revisions. He never purchased another driver again.



How the winds are scattered greatly effects how the eq response though....not every pickup is just wound top to bottom.
That being said baseplate changes are super easy to do as long as the pole piece spacing lines up.

I've heard...and I have no way to verify this anymore...that there were a set of lithiums wound for the guitarporn run that were different then the lithiums they used now. 

Again no way to verify...but I really liked the lithiums in the gp7x I originally had. I couldn't stand them in the second dc7x I bought. eh.


----------



## Edika

MatiasTolkki said:


> So I just watched the first part of the last livestream Kim Jong Jeffe did, and he seems bewildered as to why he's taking flak for the end of the 22 pole piece pickups... The density is strong with him.



How things have changed. A few years back everyone was dissing the 22 pole piece or 26 pole piece Carvin pickups and they couldn't wait to get the guitar to rip them out and put whatever pickup was hot at the time. When the Lithium's came out almost everyone rejoiced for them normal pole pickups with the modern sounds!
Now that they're being discontinued people are displeased.

I swear some times I don't understand people...


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Edika said:


> How things have changed. A few years back everyone was dissing the 22 pole piece or 26 pole piece Carvin pickups and they couldn't wait to get the guitar to rip them out and put whatever pickup was hot at the time. When the Lithium's came out almost everyone rejoiced for them normal pole pickups with the modern sounds!
> Now that they're being discontinued people are displeased.
> 
> I swear some times I don't understand people...



Except i didnt get into Carvin until 2014, with my JB200, and was unaware of that stuff. I only knew the M22SD/V came stock in the JB200, got those, and was completely happy with them. Ordered a V220 with them as well. Then he decided to discontinue them so I had to spend money I didn't have because I'd never be able to try them in one of my Ibanezes because of that. On top of that, International customers are getting screwed by all of this: Those of us who hate the lithiums now have to spend a LOT of extra money for decent pups, which is why I'm not ordering from them unless they have a pickup that is NOT modern sounding, and based on Dear Leader's comments about the Berylliums and Thoriums, the thoriums are going to be higher output lithiums, so if they are even remotely similar in tone to those, i'm out.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

DudeManBrother said:


> My opinion on the Lithium pickups might be due to the fact that I bought a multi scale, so replacement pickups is a bit more cumbersome to purchase: A pickup is slugs, poles, wraps of copper and a magnet. No magic in them. Lower a pickup and it reduces output, which increases bass and reduces clarity. Raise a pole to re-increase the output, which reduces bass and increases clarity, for that particular string.
> The real shortcomings IMO is the electrinics used. Buy lower resistance potentiometers and get some different capacitors to try out. You can completely alter the sound. If it still wasn’t working for you, then try a different magnet. The alnico V they use in lithium’s should be able to easily produce an 80’s sound, but you can easily get an alnico II, or grab an alnico VIII for a completely different voice.
> If the materials used are quality, then the real shortcoming is our own imagination, and desire to expiriment with different parts.
> It reminds me of an interview with a world class golfer from the 1950’s who got yelled at by his wife for buying a new driver every year, when they barely made enough money to eat and pay for hotel rooms during the tour circuit. This was in the days when drivers were made from persimmon wood; so he bought a rasp and shaped his driver exactly as he wanted it after a few range visits and revisions. He never purchased another driver again.



I spent enough time with the lithiums, both K14s and K12s, to know that they won't do what I want them to do. They are not made in a way conductive to 80s tones. Just that simple. You can't make the lithiums sound like a Dimarzio Super Distortion or Evolution. I messed around with them, the amp EQ and everything, couldn't do it. Also, they are based on the Lundgren M6 pickups, so if you read the specs on those pups, you'll know they are designed for "modern" stuff, and aren't the jack of all trades that Jeff likes to make them out to be.


----------



## Edika

MatiasTolkki said:


> Except i didnt get into Carvin until 2014, with my JB200, and was unaware of that stuff. I only knew the M22SD/V came stock in the JB200, got those, and was completely happy with them. Ordered a V220 with them as well. Then he decided to discontinue them so I had to spend money I didn't have because I'd never be able to try them in one of my Ibanezes because of that. On top of that, International customers are getting screwed by all of this: Those of us who hate the lithiums now have to spend a LOT of extra money for decent pups, which is why I'm not ordering from them unless they have a pickup that is NOT modern sounding, and based on Dear Leader's comments about the Berylliums and Thoriums, the thoriums are going to be higher output lithiums, so if they are even remotely similar in tone to those, i'm out.



It was merely making a general statement to the fact the Jeff is getting flack about discontinuing those. You can't imagine how much vitriol I've read about classic Carvin pickups. I still have the C22 pickups in my Carvin and like them a great deal, even after almost 11 years I own the guitar.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Edika said:


> It was merely making a general statement to the fact the Jeff is getting flack about discontinuing those. You can't imagine how much vitriol I've read about classic Carvin pickups. I still have the C22 pickups in my Carvin and like them a great deal, even after almost 11 years I own the guitar.



Wasn't a lot of that because of the looks (double the pole pieces) and not the sound?


----------



## Edika

MatiasTolkki said:


> Wasn't a lot of that because of the looks (double the pole pieces) and not the sound?



In one aspect yes but a lot of people didn't seem to like their sound. I will admit that their 7 string pickups, the C26 series, were a bit lacking in some aspects but they were quite decent. It took me 2-3 years to decide to change them and while the Dimarzios I put there were clearer, hotter and more focused, the Carvin stock C26 could work for a multitude of genres.
The C22's I have in my 6 string Carvin seem hotter than several aftermarket pickups I've tried but it just might be the frequency spike that makes them sound like that. They cut through and have a lot of clarity while being dynamic and have a certain 80's flavor to them. I've heard people call them shrill and ice picky but while they're bright I wouldn't say that's the case.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Edika said:


> In one aspect yes but a lot of people didn't seem to like their sound. I will admit that their 7 string pickups, the C26 series, were a bit lacking in some aspects but they were quite decent. It took me 2-3 years to decide to change them and while the Dimarzios I put there were clearer, hotter and more focused, the Carvin stock C26 could work for a multitude of genres.
> The C22's I have in my 6 string Carvin seem hotter than several aftermarket pickups I've tried but it just might be the frequency spike that makes them sound like that. They cut through and have a lot of clarity while being dynamic and have a certain 80's flavor to them. I've heard people call them shrill and ice picky but while they're bright I wouldn't say that's the case.



Yeah, I've heard the ERG pups weren't liked all that much compared to the others, but I think because I came into the whole Carvin thing later, I was able to appreciate the pups more than most people. I've been probably the MOST vocal about the loss of the old pups because of that reason. I had been searching for what pups sound perfect to my ears, the M series did it for me, now their being taken away. The only other higher output pups I really dig are the dimarzio evolutions because they have the bite and have really good mid spikes so that they cut through the mix very well.

Business is business and I get that, but Dimarzio never discontinued the Super distortion or PAF pro or any of their "legend" pickups. I'm sure people would lose their collective shits if that happened.


----------



## marcwormjim

DudeManBrother said:


> My opinion on the Lithium pickups might be due to the fact that I bought a multi scale, so replacement pickups is a bit more cumbersome to purchase: A pickup is slugs, poles, wraps of copper and a magnet. No magic in them. Lower a pickup and it reduces output, which increases bass and reduces clarity. Raise a pole to re-increase the output, which reduces bass and increases clarity, for that particular string.
> The real shortcomings IMO is the electrinics used. Buy lower resistance potentiometers and get some different capacitors to try out. You can completely alter the sound. If it still wasn’t working for you, then try a different magnet. The alnico V they use in lithium’s should be able to easily produce an 80’s sound, but you can easily get an alnico II, or grab an alnico VIII for a completely different voice.
> If the materials used are quality, then the real shortcoming is our own imagination, and desire to expiriment with different parts.
> It reminds me of an interview with a world class golfer from the 1950’s who got yelled at by his wife for buying a new driver every year, when they barely made enough money to eat and pay for hotel rooms during the tour circuit. This was in the days when drivers were made from persimmon wood; so he bought a rasp and shaped his driver exactly as he wanted it after a few range visits and revisions. He never purchased another driver again.



You have never modded your Lithiums, and there’s no moral to be found in comparing a pickup to a luxury golf club from the 1950’s. This is a wall of farts.


----------



## Petar Bogdanov

Edika said:


> How things have changed. A few years back everyone was dissing the 22 pole piece or 26 pole piece Carvin pickups and they couldn't wait to get the guitar to rip them out and put whatever pickup was hot at the time. When the Lithium's came out almost everyone rejoiced for them normal pole pickups with the modern sounds!
> Now that they're being discontinued people are displeased.
> 
> I swear some times I don't understand people...



As far as I remember, only the C series ever got any hate, mostly for being too bright. The H and M series were liked or loved. That's probably what people are going to miss now.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Petar Bogdanov said:


> As far as I remember, only the C series ever got any hate, mostly for being too bright. The H and M series were liked or loved. That's probably what people are going to miss now.



Definitely me. I love the M22SD/V set. And Kim Jong Jeffe's response is "if you're upset, by some!" Excuse me, I didn't have the money to order them but to get a final set I spent money i didn't have to order a set. He's so dense he makes Jupiter's atmosphere feel like the moon's. Ugh.


----------



## diagrammatiks

MatiasTolkki said:


> Definitely me. I love the M22SD/V set. And Kim Jong Jeffe's response is "if you're upset, by some!" Excuse me, I didn't have the money to order them but to get a final set I spent money i didn't have to order a set. He's so dense he makes Jupiter's atmosphere feel like the moon's. Ugh.



I don't really see how that's his problem though. That should be every retailers response. He has no reason to discontinue something that actually sells...so if you want them buy them. That sounds standard.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

DudeManBrother said:


> My opinion on the Lithium pickups might be due to the fact that I bought a multi scale, so replacement pickups is a bit more cumbersome to purchase: A pickup is slugs, poles, wraps of copper and a magnet. No magic in them. Lower a pickup and it reduces output, which increases bass and reduces clarity. Raise a pole to re-increase the output, which reduces bass and increases clarity, for that particular string.
> The real shortcomings IMO is the electrinics used. Buy lower resistance potentiometers and get some different capacitors to try out. You can completely alter the sound. If it still wasn’t working for you, then try a different magnet. The alnico V they use in lithium’s should be able to easily produce an 80’s sound, but you can easily get an alnico II, or grab an alnico VIII for a completely different voice.
> If the materials used are quality, then the real shortcoming is our own imagination, and desire to expiriment with different parts.
> It reminds me of an interview with a world class golfer from the 1950’s who got yelled at by his wife for buying a new driver every year, when they barely made enough money to eat and pay for hotel rooms during the tour circuit. This was in the days when drivers were made from persimmon wood; so he bought a rasp and shaped his driver exactly as he wanted it after a few range visits and revisions. He never purchased another driver again.


After owning a couple of different guitars with lithiums I can confidently say they are versatile, though they err on the too bright side (at least in all limba neck throughs w/maple tops). I can easily get Ratt/Motley Crue/Iron Maiden esque tones from the lithiums. I don't like them in my limba/maple vader but in my koa bodied vader they sound excellent and I feel no need to switch them out. I think they really need to be presented in warmer sounding woods to balance them out. The biggest problem with mag swaps for 8 strings is finding something other than ceramic or alnico 5 magnets of that size. It's extremely difficult to find alnico2,4 or alnico8 mags sized for 8 strings right now (I've been looking for some for a while). I do agree on adding different value capacitors to change the sound a bit, that's always a good cheap option.


----------



## DudeManBrother

marcwormjim said:


> You have never modded your Lithiums, and there’s no moral to be found in comparing a pickup to a luxury golf club from the 1950’s. This is a wall of farts.


I’d prefer a wall of shit. At least it contains the material properties required to build a wall. Fart is a gaseous state that makes for a nonexistent wall, and at best, could act as a temporary deterrent. 
I didn’t need to mod the pickups themselves, I dig alnico V magnets. I did, however, spend a lot of time playing with pickup height and pole height to get a sound I like. I ripped out all of the electronics and ended up liking some CTS pots best. 437k volume with the factory cap, and 433k tone pot with a .022 orange drop capacitor. 
The golf club was the parable: spend some time expirimenting with quality replacements (I think the real downfall is the cheap electronics; a “500k” pot can range from eg. 420k-580k which can really alter the tone) and then spend a few hours over time with heights. You might ultimately decide to swap pickups, we do it all the time; but hopefully you learned something about what you actually like, and how to achieve it when the pickup is close but not exactly right.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Can I just say something? 

I like how, in general, even though it's kind of negative what we're talking about, that it feels nice to have a conversation where people can disagree without being shut down because you are upset with certain decisions or whatever?


----------



## ShiftPoint

I had lithiums in my alder aries 6. I didnt care too much for them but never expected to. After owning a few carvins ive always had a new set of alternative pickups on hand ready to swap. I was extremely underwhelmed by the bridge pickup especially. There is a specific reason for this though. When i removed the lithiums to install my dimarzios I found the guitar had lithium neck pickups in both positions lol


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

ShiftPoint said:


> I had lithiums in my alder aries 6. I didnt care too much for them but never expected to. After owning a few carvins ive always had a new set of alternative pickups on hand ready to swap. I was extremely underwhelmed by the bridge pickup especially. There is a specific reason for this though. When i removed the lithiums to install my dimarzios I found the guitar had lithium neck pickups in both positions lol


----------



## DudeManBrother

ShiftPoint said:


> I had lithiums in my alder aries 6. I didnt care too much for them but never expected to. After owning a few carvins ive always had a new set of alternative pickups on hand ready to swap. I was extremely underwhelmed by the bridge pickup especially. There is a specific reason for this though. When i removed the lithiums to install my dimarzios I found the guitar had lithium neck pickups in both positions lol


Damn lol. You would hope that the price increases would come with less stupid errors but it never seems to work like that.


----------



## ShiftPoint

DudeManBrother said:


> Damn lol. You would hope that the price increases would come with less stupid errors but it never seems to work like that.



Ya lol. There was a faulty ground as well. Had to relocate the ground wire as it was soldered to the shielding and there seemed to be a continuity problem


----------



## ShiftPoint

Not trying to be a hater though. Im very happy with my aries. Same goes for the. scb7 I recently acquired.


----------



## DudeManBrother

Same boat. There were minor oversights with my Aries as well, but overall I use it daily, and would by another guitar from them


----------



## MatiasTolkki

ShiftPoint said:


> I had lithiums in my alder aries 6. I didnt care too much for them but never expected to. After owning a few carvins ive always had a new set of alternative pickups on hand ready to swap. I was extremely underwhelmed by the bridge pickup especially. There is a specific reason for this though. When i removed the lithiums to install my dimarzios I found the guitar had lithium neck pickups in both positions lol



Now that's a really dumb oversight...


----------



## MatiasTolkki

DudeManBrother said:


> Damn lol. You would hope that the price increases would come with less stupid errors but it never seems to work like that.



And they are going to raise prices again as of January 1st as well.


----------



## spudmunkey

Since the "never again" thread now out-paces this thread by 15 pages... 

Here's a photo of my 3, amongst the others. The 1st, 3rd and 4th guitars on the top row are Carvin & Kiesel:

1st: Carvin AC375 bought used
3rd: Kiesel Aries
4th: Carvin CS6


----------



## KnightBrolaire

]




I'll play too. the shitty lighting in my room only hints at how awesome they are.
dc600 and my 2 VM8s


----------



## Seabeast2000

KnightBrolaire said:


> ]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll play too. the shitty lighting in my room only hints at how awesome they are.
> dc600 and my 2 VM8s


Say is that a Sandpiper Bugout bag? I have one in Sand. 
Nice axes too.


----------



## Wolfos

KnightBrolaire said:


> ]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll play too. the shitty lighting in my room only hints at how awesome they are.
> dc600 and my 2 VM8s



The camera angle makes your walnut VM look massive compared to the blue.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

The906 said:


> Say is that a Sandpiper Bugout bag? I have one in Sand.
> Nice axes too.


yep it's a sandpiper bugout
here's a slightly less potato shot


----------



## spudmunkey

And that one on the right is Ziricote, right?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

spudmunkey said:


> And that one on the right is Ziricote, right?


yup. ziricote top. maple veneer, koa wings, koa/walnut neck.


----------



## spudmunkey

Definitely an interesting beast...


----------



## technomancer

KnightBrolaire said:


> yup. ziricote top. maple veneer, koa wings, koa/walnut neck.



That Ziricote is indeed insanely hot


----------



## MatiasTolkki

I am only posting this because it's Carvin, pre-split, when the company actually had my utmost respect. My JB200. I just got done playing her and I am still amazed at how great she sounds. I just need to get some noiseless springs for her since the springs on that thing resonate like crazy. I completely forgot to ask the dude at the shop today but I'll get some noiseless springs eventually. I could probably add an extra spring to add some tension since the scale length is shorter than my Ibbies.


----------



## strangers

MatiasTolkki said:


> I am only posting this because it's Carvin, pre-split, when the company actually had my utmost respect. My JB200. I just got done playing her and I am still amazed at how great she sounds. I just need to get some noiseless springs for her since the springs on that thing resonate like crazy. I completely forgot to ask the dude at the shop today but I'll get some noiseless springs eventually. I could probably add an extra spring to add some tension since the scale length is shorter than my Ibbies.




That's one of the nicer Carvin JB's that I've seen. I really like that color. 

Have you tried the 3/16" tubing trick inside springs instead of the noiseless before? I put the noiseless in my PRS, but am not crazy about them. I was thinking of trying the tubes with my Kiesel.


----------



## Spicypickles

I always just cut a thin piece of foam and put it in the cavity before putting the cover back on. Either that, or stuffing it under the springs.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

strangers said:


> That's one of the nicer Carvin JB's that I've seen. I really like that color.
> 
> Have you tried the 3/16" tubing trick inside springs instead of the noiseless before? I put the noiseless in my PRS, but am not crazy about them. I was thinking of trying the tubes with my Kiesel.



When I ordered it, I had been going crazy over the color (lots of people can vouch for that as I was agonizing over it all over the Carvin Forums and Facebook). I saw one dude doing a demo video on Youtube of it and he had purple with Deep triple stain (when that was an upcharge) and I thought it would be cool to do Purple with deep triple stain and blackburst. My biggest concern was that it might be too dark. Turned out better than you can ever imagine (that picture is probably my favorite outdoor picture of it because it was cloudy that day and the way the light hit it right on the body was just perfect).

As for the springs, I think Gotoh makes some noiseless springs so i'm just gonna order those. I need some extra tension too so either way I need some new springs.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Spicypickles said:


> I always just cut a thin piece of foam and put it in the cavity before putting the cover back on. Either that, or stuffing it under the springs.



I leave the cover off


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> Definitely an interesting beast...




Any idea when we'll start seeing these shipping?

I'm pretty committed to grabbing a fanned or possibly even a straight scale 8 depending on what shows up used. 

My Bartolex 8 is getting pretty long in the tooth and needs a lot of work and unfortunately the Agile Renaissance I was hoping to replace it with just isn't doing it.


----------



## BigViolin

Shame there's no room to mount a single strat pickup in the neck of that acoustic for a sort of Tim Miller thing.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

BigViolin said:


> Shame there's no room to mount a single strat pickup in the neck of that acoustic for a sort of Tim Miller thing.



You could probably do a floating pickup or even a soundhole one.


----------



## Spicypickles

MatiasTolkki said:


> I leave the cover off



I did too, later on. Thats why I mentioned putting the foam under the springs as well, that's how I handled it later.


----------



## BigViolin

MaxOfMetal said:


> You could probably do a floating pickup or even a soundhole one.



Wished that soundhole was smaller or oval, or closer to the bridge. A floater would have to mount to the side of the fretboard right? And even then would be hanging over the hole. I should have ordered a Canton years ago when they were still accessible.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

BigViolin said:


> Wished that soundhole was smaller or oval, or closer to the bridge. A floater would have to mount to the side of the fretboard right? And even then would be hanging over the hole. I should have ordered a Canton years ago when they were still accessible.



You don't have to mount them to the fretboard. They're just a thin pickup with a bracket. The only limit as far as mounting is your imagination.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Spicypickles said:


> I did too, later on. Thats why I mentioned putting the foam under the springs as well, that's how I handled it later.



Dont have any foam just laying around right now, since i sold off my Duncan Perpetual burn, so I'll just get a set of noiseless springs


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> Any idea when we'll start seeing these shipping?
> 
> I'm pretty committed to grabbing a fanned or possibly even a straight scale 8 depending on what shows up used.
> 
> My Bartolex 8 is getting pretty long in the tooth and needs a lot of work and unfortunately the Agile Renaissance I was hoping to replace it with just isn't doing it.



They are already taking phone orders, and from what I can tell, there's no model-specific components, so I imagine they will have normal lead times. Hmm...


----------



## groverj3

Even though Jeff Kiesel is a dick, and rightly gets shit for it, they do generally make good stuff that's on-par with a "production" instrument with a good number of options. Technically this makes them "custom" but I'm more inclined to think of Kiesel as "production" instruments due to some of the imperfections seen on some builds (QC is harder when you have so many builds and only X number of employees) and the price.

With that in mind, I'd be pretty stoked to order a relatively minimalist vader. For under $2k where else are you going to find a headless guitar with a trem system? There isn't much else they make that you can't find elsewhere, but that in particular I'd absolutely be down to order if I had the cash lying around.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

groverj3 said:


> Even though Jeff Kiesel is a dick, and rightly gets shit for it, they do generally make good stuff that's on-par with a "production" instrument with a good number of options. Technically this makes them "custom" but I'm more inclined to think of Kiesel as "production" instruments due to some of the imperfections seen on some builds (QC is harder when you have so many builds and only X number of employees) and the price.
> 
> With that in mind, I'd be pretty stoked to order a relatively minimalist vader. For under $2k where else are you going to find a headless guitar with a trem system? There isn't much else they make that you can't find elsewhere, but that in particular I'd absolutely be down to order if I had the cash lying around.



A guitar doesn't stop being custom built because it's not made well.


----------



## groverj3

MaxOfMetal said:


> A guitar doesn't stop being custom built because it's not made well.



I guess you have a point there


----------



## MatiasTolkki

groverj3 said:


> Even though Jeff Kiesel is a dick, and rightly gets shit for it, they do generally make good stuff that's on-par with a "production" instrument with a good number of options. Technically this makes them "custom" but I'm more inclined to think of Kiesel as "production" instruments due to some of the imperfections seen on some builds (QC is harder when you have so many builds and only X number of employees) and the price.
> 
> With that in mind, I'd be pretty stoked to order a relatively minimalist vader. For under $2k where else are you going to find a headless guitar with a trem system? There isn't much else they make that you can't find elsewhere, but that in particular I'd absolutely be down to order if I had the cash lying around.



As a counter-point to your comment about production models, sure Kiesels are nice guitars, when they were at their price points about 2 years ago. Now the prices have shot up and they aren't as attractive as they used to be. At the price points they are at now? I think I'll pass.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

groverj3 said:


> For under $2k where else are you going to find a headless guitar with a trem system?



You’ll need a few more qualifiers to make this true.

I don’t deny that, for buyers based in the US, a good Kiesel is a much better value than a Strandberg or competitor in that price range. Nonetheless, this rhetorical reads like a teenager taking out a loan to order a lefty Juggernaut from Jackson and bragging “Where else are you going to find a _left-handed _RG for under $7k?”

From 1986 to the present, headless guitars with “trem systems” have been available for under two thousand dollars. Jeff Kiesel did not innovate this, so much as he saw an opportunity to compete with Strandberg at the same time Gibson was shelving Steinberger.


----------



## groverj3

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> You’ll need a few more qualifiers to make this true.
> 
> I don’t deny that, for buyers based in the US, a good Kiesel is a much better value than a Strandberg or competitor in that price range. Nonetheless, this rhetorical reads like a teenager taking out a loan to order a lefty Juggernaut from Jackson and bragging “Where else are you going to find a _left-handed _RG for under $7k?”
> 
> From 1986 to the present, headless guitars with “trem systems” have been available for under two thousand dollars. Jeff Kiesel did not innovate this, so much as he saw an opportunity to compete with Strandberg at the same time Gibson was shelving Steinberger.



Never did I say that anything about them was innovative. I don't really understand the point you're trying to make here. Other than simply going to a thread where someone said they liked something that Kiesel makes and letting everyone know that it's not sufficiently critical for you. Everyone knows the guy's a jerk, but they're a good value for what you can get, and assuming you don't load it up with options that make it non-returnable, then you're pretty well covered in case something doesn't turn out right.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

groverj3 said:


> Never did I say that anything about them was innovative. I don't really understand the point you're trying to make here. Other than simply going to a thread where someone said they liked something that Kiesel makes and letting everyone know that it's not sufficiently critical for you. Everyone knows the guy's a jerk, but they're a good value for what you can get, and assuming you don't load it up with options that make it non-returnable, then you're pretty well covered in case something doesn't turn out right.



Except even in the case of something being returnable, there are lots of examples of people who have been told by Jeff to piss off and they wouldn't get their refunds. 

I didn't want to make this a negative thread, but I couldn't let this misinformation stand.


----------



## groverj3

MatiasTolkki said:


> Except even in the case of something being returnable, there are lots of examples of people who have been told by Jeff to piss off and they wouldn't get their refunds.
> 
> I didn't want to make this a negative thread, but I couldn't let this misinformation stand.



I was unaware of that. I figured it was people ordering a bunch of option 50s here and getting pissy about not liking it after the fact. Good to know!


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

groverj3 said:


> I don't really understand the point you're trying to make here.



Your previously-posted rhetorical question, which I quoted in my reply, suggested that a particular guitar manufacturer was currently the only provider of headless guitars with trems at a sub-$2k price point. The point expressed in my (admittedly tangential and informal) reply was to state that this has never been the case.


----------



## makecamera




----------



## MatiasTolkki

So I've been on a break from my Ibanezes and playing my v220, since it's the one I'm the most conflicted with. I havent had to adjust the truss rod since it arrived, and Japan has insane rises and dips in humidity between summer and winter, with things getting absolutely insane in June/July with the rainy season. 

As a totally objective complaint of the model itself, it should have a belly cut standard. I'm doing my darnedest to get into shape right now but that takes time and without a belly cut on that thing, it's just so hard to play standing with a beer belly (even though I'm on a diet and am not drinking ANY alcohol right now). 

As for the tone, because it has the M22SD/V pups, no worries on that side of things. Because I've been playing it more, I've really been enjoying it and now it's my only pointy guitar so I can't really bear the idea of parting with it.


----------



## Jeff K




----------



## MatiasTolkki

Time to bump this zombie thread up:

Been switching between my JB200 and V220. I'm happy with both of them, but with the bad paint in certain areas, I'm not the only one who thought it was stupid. Took my v220 to my guitar lesson Sunday and even the guy there was like "Yeah this is crap." However, he really liked playing it (I asked him to take a look at it to see if it needed any work done on it) and thought it was really high quality. Makes me feel better about it. I still think my jb200 is better though


----------



## bostjan

makecamera said:


> View attachment 60794


That green one!
Ever considered white speed knobs? IDK, the black looks okay, but I think white would pop a little better.



MatiasTolkki said:


> Time to bump this zombie thread up:
> 
> Been switching between my JB200 and V220. I'm happy with both of them, but with the bad paint in certain areas, I'm not the only one who thought it was stupid. Took my v220 to my guitar lesson Sunday and even the guy there was like "Yeah this is crap." However, he really liked playing it (I asked him to take a look at it to see if it needed any work done on it) and thought it was really high quality. Makes me feel better about it. I still think my jb200 is better though


Can't you get a refinish? Would it be worth it?


----------



## bnzboy

MatiasTolkki said:


> Time to bump this zombie thread up:
> 
> Been switching between my JB200 and V220. I'm happy with both of them, but with the bad paint in certain areas, I'm not the only one who thought it was stupid. Took my v220 to my guitar lesson Sunday and even the guy there was like "Yeah this is crap." However, he really liked playing it (I asked him to take a look at it to see if it needed any work done on it) and thought it was really high quality. Makes me feel better about it. I still think my jb200 is better though



you mean he thought it the quality was "crap" but still liked how it played? Or just the paint job was "crap"?


----------



## MatiasTolkki

bostjan said:


> That green one!
> Ever considered white speed knobs? IDK, the black looks okay, but I think white would pop a little better.
> 
> 
> Can't you get a refinish? Would it be worth it?



It wouldnt be worth it. The guitar plays great but they scraped edges and it just looks BAD. It's only noticeable up close, but it's still something that REALLY bothers me about my V220. It's just a few edges, and where the neck meets the body the painter left a little primer visible. It's part of why I don't exactly trust "Kiesel" when I trusted "Carvin" and it's why I tend to separate the guitars into two companies, since my JB200 is a masterpiece and the V220, while it plays and sounds good, has flaws because of bad QC.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

And I just want to be clear, I'm not trying to intentionally go crazy on the Kiesel bashing or anything, only legitimate issues, and that my JB200 is amazing, but I wouldn't buy one without the Active preamp.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

We just can’t seem to understand that, though, so I’m afraid you’re still going to need to periodically remind us until it gets through our thick heads. I know it takes away from the stuff you’d _rather_ say about Kiesel, but we’re a forgetful bunch. 

Back on topic: I’ve been looking at the Aries A LOT, lately, but can’t decide between it and one of those Genesys RG550s. I mean, go american or go home, right? LOL


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> We just can’t seem to understand that, though, so I’m afraid you’re still going to need to periodically remind us until it gets through our thick heads. I know it takes away from the stuff you’d _rather_ say about Kiesel, but we’re a forgetful bunch.
> 
> Back on topic: I’ve been looking at the Aries A LOT, lately, but can’t decide between it and one of those Genesys RG550s. I mean, go american or go home, right? LOL



Ibanez, if you dont mind the square heel. Cheaper and MIJ.


----------



## SDMFVan

lol


----------



## laxu

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> I’ve been looking at the Aries A LOT, lately, but can’t decide between it and one of those Genesys RG550s.



Aries by a mile IMO.

The Kiesel pickups are a lot better than the crappy Ibanez V-series.
The Aries neck heel is much better than the slanted block heel on the RG550.
The Ibanez Wizard neck is hideously thin, to the point where it's not a plus.
The beveled top on the Aries makes it very comfortable. They should have never offered the option to remove it and stuck to their design.
OFR and Ibanez Edge are pretty interchangeable.
To give you some context, I owned an original 1989 Ibanez RG550 for about 15 years so I'm very familiar with how that guitar sounds and plays. I replaced it with a Carvin C66 that I like more, mainly due to being better looking and having a thicker neck. I also own an Aries AM7 that plays like butter.

I was initially on the fence about the Kiesel Lithium pickups but have since grown to like them. They benefit from a bit of low mids boost at the amp end and using the tone knob to cut their brightness as needed. I would not get the Lithiums with an ash bodied guitar.

Jeff Kiesel might be a douche but Kiesel still builds a mean guitar.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

laxu said:


> Aries by a mile IMO.
> 
> The Kiesel pickups are a lot better than the crappy Ibanez V-series.
> The Aries neck heel is much better than the slanted block heel on the RG550.
> The Ibanez Wizard neck is hideously thin, to the point where it's not a plus.
> The beveled top on the Aries makes it very comfortable. They should have never offered the option to remove it and stuck to their design.
> OFR and Ibanez Edge are pretty interchangeable.
> To give you some context, I owned an original 1989 Ibanez RG550 for about 15 years so I'm very familiar with how that guitar sounds and plays. I replaced it with a Carvin C66 that I like more, mainly due to being better looking and having a thicker neck. I also own an Aries AM7 that plays like butter.
> 
> I was initially on the fence about the Kiesel Lithium pickups but have since grown to like them. They benefit from a bit of low mids boost at the amp end and using the tone knob to cut their brightness as needed. I would not get the Lithiums with an ash bodied guitar.
> 
> Jeff Kiesel might be a douche but Kiesel still builds a mean guitar.



The new 550s are FAR better than the old 1980s Ibbies. I owned an RG750, RG550CA (1993), RG560 (90), and own an RG5000 (91) and the one that plays the best and feels the best? The 2018 RG550RF. I changed out the pups and now it sounds like a BEAST. I've played an aries, and the heel joint is NOT that much better access than a square heel Ibanez, I dont care what Jeff Kiesel says.


----------



## bostjan

laxu said:


> Aries by a mile IMO.
> 
> The Kiesel pickups are a lot better than the crappy Ibanez V-series.
> The Aries neck heel is much better than the slanted block heel on the RG550.
> The Ibanez Wizard neck is hideously thin, to the point where it's not a plus.
> The beveled top on the Aries makes it very comfortable. They should have never offered the option to remove it and stuck to their design.
> OFR and Ibanez Edge are pretty interchangeable.
> To give you some context, I owned an original 1989 Ibanez RG550 for about 15 years so I'm very familiar with how that guitar sounds and plays. I replaced it with a Carvin C66 that I like more, mainly due to being better looking and having a thicker neck. I also own an Aries AM7 that plays like butter.
> 
> I was initially on the fence about the Kiesel Lithium pickups but have since grown to like them. They benefit from a bit of low mids boost at the amp end and using the tone knob to cut their brightness as needed. I would not get the Lithiums with an ash bodied guitar.
> 
> Jeff Kiesel might be a douche but Kiesel still builds a mean guitar.


Honestly, I figured @Andrew Lloyd Webber was merely trying to provoke a response from @MatiasTolkki with that statement.

Seriously, though, I think that it'd be a fairly even split if you took 100 random guitar players and gave them the choice, or it might go a little in Kiesel's favour, barring any glaring QC issues.


----------



## laxu

MatiasTolkki said:


> The new 550s are FAR better than the old 1980s Ibbies. I owned an RG750, RG550CA (1993), RG560 (90), and own an RG5000 (91) and the one that plays the best and feels the best? The 2018 RG550RF. I changed out the pups and now it sounds like a BEAST. I've played an aries, and the heel joint is NOT that much better access than a square heel Ibanez, I dont care what Jeff Kiesel says.



In my experience the Kiesel square heel is, despite its looks, one of the most comfortable bolt-on heels I've tried. It does not get in the way at all. The contoured heel on my Carvin gets in the way a little bit, the slanted block heel on my Ibanez was noticeable.


----------



## Albake21

I'm going to bite the bullet and start a build with Kiesel. So far Mike has been great to work with and has been helping me with everything. Personally I've really enjoyed the Kiesels I've played and owned especially for the money. I also have a few fantastic guitars right now so for the first time I don't mind waiting for a custom.

Bottom line is, as long as you aren't doing a crazy spec'd out guitar, Kiesels are great for the money. I'd say they are completely worth it if you spec out anything below 2k. Just my


----------



## bostjan

Albake21 said:


> I'm going to bite the bullet and start a build with Kiesel. So far Mike has been great to work with and has been helping me with everything. Personally I've really enjoyed the Kiesels I've played and owned especially for the money. I also have a few fantastic guitars right now so for the first time I don't mind waiting for a custom.
> 
> Bottom line is, as long as you aren't doing a crazy spec'd out guitar, Kiesels are great for the money. I'd say they are completely worth it if you spec out anything below 2k. Just my



Good luck!


----------



## MatiasTolkki

laxu said:


> In my experience the Kiesel square heel is, despite its looks, one of the most comfortable bolt-on heels I've tried. It does not get in the way at all. The contoured heel on my Carvin gets in the way a little bit, the slanted block heel on my Ibanez was noticeable.



Then you've never played an Ibanez AANJ. That is THE best neck joint out there. I was quite annoyed when I played my friend's Aries that the neck heel was nowhere near as good access as Jeff had been bragging about (hell it was the FIRST thing I checked because he who shall not be named had been making a massive fuss about it during his livestreams at the time). HIGHLY disappointed in it.


----------



## spudmunkey

And, subjectively, I like the heel on my Aries better than the heel on my old AANJ.¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> And, subjectively, I like the heel on my Aries better than the heel on my old AANJ.¯\_(ツ)_/¯



I mean I could see the argument for Aries vs Ibanez square heel, that thing is bulky, but against the AANJ? That doesnt make any sense. 

I think Kiesel's best work is the set-thru though. That's something REALLY innovative and functional.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> I'm going to bite the bullet and start a build with Kiesel. So far Mike has been great to work with and has been helping me with everything. Personally I've really enjoyed the Kiesels I've played and owned especially for the money. I also have a few fantastic guitars right now so for the first time I don't mind waiting for a custom.
> 
> Bottom line is, as long as you aren't doing a crazy spec'd out guitar, Kiesels are great for the money. I'd say they are completely worth it if you spec out anything below 2k. Just my



I REALLY want an X220. I think if I have one of those, that'll be the end of my Kiesel purchases.


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> I mean I could see the argument for Aries vs Ibanez square heel, that thing is bulky, but against the AANJ? That doesnt make any sense.


Having an opinion of preference of a guitar.... "that doesn't make any sense" /s


----------



## spudmunkey

The AANJ stays thicker further up the neck. Yes, it's more rounded, but it's slope is less than the Kiesel "beveled" heel. And in the times that I do end up riding the heels when I'm up-high, the kiesel one fits in my palm more comfortably. That step from neck to body is a less severe one. Yes, it's blockier, but it's sleeker in my hand. It's an exaggeration, but imagine a dice next to a ping pong ball. It's more round, but "bulkier" in my hand.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Watching Spuds and Matty go at it over Kiesel brings back warm memories of Metal Ken and I sparring over Schecter. Good times.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> The AANJ stays thicker further up the neck. Yes, it's more rounded, but it's slope is less than the Kiesel "beveled" heel. And in the times that I do end up riding the heels when I'm up-high, the kiesel one fits in my palm more comfortably. That step from neck to body is a less severe one. Yes, it's blockier, but it's sleeker in my hand. It's an exaggeration, but imagine a dice next to a ping pong ball. It's more round, but "bulkier" in my hand.



That makes sense, I guess because I started with an AANJ that I dont actually feel that way about em.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

I forgot who will never again buy a Kiesel...


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I forgot who will never again buy a Kiesel...



remember, there's a used market.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

“I’ve never in my life purchased a Carvin or Kiesel guitar, and never will.”-Jeff Kiesel


----------



## laxu

MatiasTolkki said:


> Then you've never played an Ibanez AANJ. That is THE best neck joint out there. I was quite annoyed when I played my friend's Aries that the neck heel was nowhere near as good access as Jeff had been bragging about (hell it was the FIRST thing I checked because he who shall not be named had been making a massive fuss about it during his livestreams at the time). HIGHLY disappointed in it.



I disagree but you may have just a different preference. Played plenty of AANJs and I still prefer the Kiesel block heel. Surprised I did but at least on my Aries AM7 it blends in really well.


----------



## Edika

I made the mistake of watching the Perpetual Burn pickup demo with Danny Young playing using a Carvin JB200 and then the demo of the Carvin JB numbers guitar. Now I'm so confused because I'm lusting over both models, especially the numbers guitar, but I know it's only due to Young's playing (a great marketing move to use him for the demo's). I can identify that my main attraction to those instruments and the SD PB pickup is only to the dude's playing and sounds he's making but I still want them, knowing pretty well I'm not going to sound like that or play like that if I get one.

@Andrew Lloyd Webber salt me up and put me in a jar to cure!


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

Danny Young is only on that channel to manipulate you toward one goal; and it’s to convince you to fund _this_ affluenza-fueled punk’s racecar hobby:





If you just bought _anything _else (including a used JB or Numbers) and then donated a little cash to Becker directly, you’ll feel a lot better about your crappy guitar playing. You may even feel good enough about yourself to stop patronizing this site altogether.


----------



## Edika

@Andrew Lloyd Webber Aaaaaaaah now I feel better. A healthy dose of reality is what the doctor just prescribed.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

i thought this was supposed to ae the "kiesel safe space" where bashing wasn't allowed


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

I’m just betting on the “all in good fun” nature of Edika’s request and my own farcical post ending up forgotten by the next page. Otherwise, the paper badges can fight for the glory of coming through with the pooper scooper to delete the shenanigans.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> I’m just betting on the “all in good fun” nature of Edika’s request and my own farcical post ending up forgotten by the next page. Otherwise, the paper badges can fight over who gets to come through with the pooper scooper and delete the shenanigans.



No one really cares about your posts as much as you think they do. 

I mean, you're on account number what? Meh, not worth the effort.


----------



## Edika

Well truth be told Max I asked for it so I'm to blame for this one.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Edika said:


> Well truth be told Max I asked for it so I'm to blame for this one.



Nothing to take blame for. Just saying nothing is really worth cleaning up.


----------



## bostjan

MatiasTolkki said:


> I think Kiesel's best work is the set-thru though. That's something REALLY innovative and functional.


Kiesel was, in no way shape or form, the innovator of that design. McNaught owns the patent from 2000, but over at the ESP forum, people seem to think that ESP invented the idea sometime after 2003. I'm sure other manufacturers claim that they invented it, too.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

bostjan said:


> Kiesel was, in no way shape or form, the innovator of that design. McNaught owns the patent from 2000, but over at the ESP forum, people seem to think that ESP invented the idea sometime after 2003. I'm sure other manufacturers claim that they invented it, too.



Really? didn't know that, thanks for the clarification. I hadn't heard of it before so that's why I assumed so.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Is it just me, or are these prices WAY too much for used Kiesels?

https://www.digimart.net/search?dis...&bodyShapeOption=&materialOption=&keywordNot=


----------



## MaxOfMetal

MatiasTolkki said:


> Is it just me, or are these prices WAY too much for used Kiesels?
> 
> https://www.digimart.net/search?dis...&bodyShapeOption=&materialOption=&keywordNot=



How much would it cost for the same thing, new and shipped over there?


----------



## MatiasTolkki

MaxOfMetal said:


> How much would it cost for the same thing, new and shipped over there?



With the $100 in free options, the DC600 comes out to 1649, which comes out to 179741 yen before shipping (current exchange rate is 109 yen=1 USD). That boneheaded store is charging 248,000 yen for it USED.


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> With the $100 in free options, the DC600 comes out to 1649, which comes out to 179741 yen before shipping (current exchange rate is 109 yen=1 USD). That boneheaded store is charging 248,000 yen for it USED.


It's probably because it's Japan. Same thing happens over here in the US with shops from around the world. For instance, Mayones is way cheaper in Europe.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> It's probably because it's Japan. Same thing happens over here in the US with shops from around the world. For instance, Mayones is way cheaper in Europe.



I think someone thinks he can cheat some poor schmuck out of money. Because it looks pretty it should cost more kinda thing, because here guitars with flame tops and stuff go for outrageous prices.


----------



## laxu

MatiasTolkki said:


> I think someone thinks he can cheat some poor schmuck out of money. Because it looks pretty it should cost more kinda thing, because here guitars with flame tops and stuff go for outrageous prices.



Japan's pricing can be weird. When I was there last time I was thinking of buying an Ibanez bass but turns out the model I was looking at was more expensive than just buying it in Finland.

Those prices are pretty steep though if these are not new guitars sold by the store. Otherwise I would expect that's import tax + shipping costs + profit factored in.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

laxu said:


> Japan's pricing can be weird. When I was there last time I was thinking of buying an Ibanez bass but turns out the model I was looking at was more expensive than just buying it in Finland.
> 
> Those prices are pretty steep though if these are not new guitars sold by the store. Otherwise I would expect that's import tax + shipping costs + profit factored in.



These are used guitars, someone bought em, sold em to this shop, and expect people to fall for the pricing because most people dont speak English so they dont know how to order from Kiesel. 

Import taxes are TINY. I know the EU has some VAT taxes that jack the price up like crazy, but when I got my v220, all I had to do was pay the appropriate consumption tax (like 6000 on the base price of the V220, which was like $1099 at the time iirc) and shipping, even at 129 bucks, still doesn't get ANYWHERE near the price that that store is charging.


----------



## spudmunkey

There's also at least one entity selling what appear to be new Kiesels for, like, $4K USD on ebay, for relatively "basic upgraded" models (things like flamed maple tops...nothing too out-landish). They are seemingly posted in batches. I don't see any up now, but they all have the same style of photography (different than the ones posted above). I have to assume they are for the Japanese market, but still...Is it just that they are banking on omeone not wanting to wait, or deal with importing?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Something fishy is going on: https://m.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=kiesel+guitar&_sacat=0&_sop=16

Same guitar. Four prices. Four sellers.


----------



## cwhitey2

MaxOfMetal said:


> Something fishy is going on: https://m.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=kiesel+guitar&_sacat=0&_sop=16
> 
> Same guitar. Four prices. Four sellers.




Something fishy is indeed going on.


----------



## spudmunkey

Look again. Same guitar. Five prices. Four sellers. One of them is the same seller, selling it for two different prices. Say, wha?


----------



## Jake

Jesus Christ Jeff really has people believing anything that he puts out here. I may be late to this party but really? 






Worries of wood integrity with baking  
More like Jeff has no idea wtf he's doing and is just ripping people off by claiming he's doing something he's incapable of doing. 

I really want to order an Osiris but man this guy makes it hard for me to justify it....like wow.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Jake said:


> Jesus Christ Jeff really has people believing anything that he puts out here. I may be late to this party but really?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Worries of wood integrity with baking
> More like Jeff has no idea wtf he's doing and is just ripping people off by claiming he's doing something he's incapable of doing.
> 
> I really want to order an Osiris but man this guy makes it hard for me to justify it....like wow.


What're you talking about? Jeff knows how to get baked just fine!


----------



## feraledge

MaxOfMetal said:


> Something fishy is going on: https://m.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=kiesel+guitar&_sacat=0&_sop=16
> 
> Same guitar. Four prices. Four sellers.


I forget which thread, but I know @MatiasTolkki has pointed this scam out among others. IIRC, it’s pics taken from shops in Japan and then relisted multiple times with different prices by other “sellers”. Best case scenario, guitar is in the store, the “seller” buys it and ships it. Worst case, just total scam. 
Makes digging for crazy ESPs very depressing.


----------



## BigViolin

The same guitar gets listed by multiple brokers from Japan.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

BigViolin said:


> The same guitar gets listed by multiple brokers from Japan.



They are scammers. Any ebay listing i see from Japan I immediately question the authenticity of, and anyone who plays guitars should too. Hell, when Soundhouse (the former Carvin dealer) listed my Purple JB200 on their site, some idiot stole ALL the pics from it and listed it as their own on an ebay listing. One of the carvinites who helped me a lot on deciding to go with purple, Rab, noticed it and pmed me on FB, asking me if I was selling my JB200 already (it was my guitar and it was listed as being in Japan, and I had only had it for a couple weeks at that point iirc).


----------



## Andromalia

For the record Meestursparkle is legit, bought two guitars off him. Best packaging in the business, too.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Andromalia said:


> For the record Meestursparkle is legit, bought two guitars off him. Best packaging in the business, too.



He's the only one. I have looked over so many of those ads and 99% are people jacking pictures from reputable guitar shops and using them as their own, with MASSIVE mark-ups because they think they can cheat Non-Japanese customers. I've looked over dozens of ads, so this is not just some nonsensical conjecture. I know which stores take which kinda of pictures, and some of these idiots are so brazen that they'll steal pics with watermarks on them (like Ikebe's pictures) and use them as their own.


----------



## Andromalia

Oh, I know it's a thing, but I thought I had to give a thumbs up to that guy, whose service is impeccable. His prices aren't cheap but still reasonable too, and you can grab ESPs from him at a decent price if yo check his page regularly. Got my CH from him.



> and some of these idiots are so brazen that they'll steal pics with watermarks on them (like Ikebe's pictures) and use them as their own



Those are probably the most clever of the lot, believe it or not. That's selecting the dumbest buyer possible, a common scam technique. (which is why all those nigerian princes have terrible spelling: people who accept that kind of writing are the ones least susceptoble to realise something is fishy halfway through)


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Andromalia said:


> Oh, I know it's a thing, but I thought I had to give a thumbs up to that guy, whose service is impeccable. His prices aren't cheap but still reasonable too, and you can grab ESPs from him at a decent price if yo check his page regularly. Got my CH from him.
> 
> 
> 
> Those are probably the most clever of the lot, believe it or not. That's selecting the dumbest buyer possible, a common scam technique. (which is why all those nigerian princes have terrible spelling: people who accept that kind of writing are the ones least susceptoble to realise something is fishy halfway through)



Yeah I've heard people having great results with him and I'm not bashing him because he seems to be a legit dude. I've tried to find ways to discredit him just because I dont trust a damn person on fleabay, but haven't found any reason to in his case.


----------



## Edika

Not to hijack the thread with Japanese pricing shenanigans but I did see a BC Rich Warlock Deluxe listed as a very good condition on Reverb, I don't recal which store it was but it seemed like a well known one, and the guitar had a the low E saddle missing pieces, several atrempts in the back to move the strap button with the original position damaged and the corners seemed scraped. With shiping it was about £650 and without shipping at about £420. Too much for that condition and in no way very good.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Edika said:


> Not to hijack the thread with Japanese pricing shenanigans but I did see a BC Rich Warlock Deluxe listed as a very good condition on Reverb, I don't recal which store it was but it seemed like a well known one, and the guitar had a the low E saddle missing pieces, several atrempts in the back to move the strap button with the original position damaged and the corners seemed scraped. With shiping it was about £650 and without shipping at about £420. Too much for that condition and in no way very good.



Shipping shouldnt be THAT much to the UK. I have sent guitars to australia and the US and the most i've ever paid is 16,000 yen. I've found a way to get it down to 13,000 as well (smaller box, but no risk to the guitar as I am absolutely anal about making sure it's wrapped up VERY well).


----------



## MatiasTolkki

i've been pondering: 

As much as I hate El farterino snifferino, I've been considering going through with a build I had planned YEARS ago: a V220 that is a carbon copy of my JB200.


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> i've been pondering:
> 
> As much as I hate El farterino snifferino, I've been considering going through with a build I had planned YEARS ago: a V220 that is a carbon copy of my JB200.


I just placed my order yesterday with Mike. Great guy to work with. I'd say go for it as I doubt you will do anything extreme. Like I've said before, Kiesels are great if they are under $2k and you don't go with anything crazy or off of their catalogue (opt 50).


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> I just placed my order yesterday with Mike. Great guy to work with. I'd say go for it as I doubt you will do anything extreme. Like I've said before, Kiesels are great if they are under $2k and you don't go with anything crazy or off of their catalogue (opt 50).



Well, if the V220s didnt get their prices raised by 200 bucks, I could manage to get it for just over 2k, but I spec'd it out earlier today and it came to 2400 fucking dollars


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> Well, if the V220s didnt get their prices raised by 200 bucks, I could manage to get it for just over 2k, but I spec'd it out earlier today and it came to 2400 fucking dollars


Whoa what the hell are you spec'ing out to make it 2400? It starts at only $1300


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> Whoa what the hell are you spec'ing out to make it 2400? It starts at only $1300



Nothing insane dude. Just flame maple top, flame maple board, matching headstock with abalone dot inlays and blackburst. ALL standard options.

Also dont forget that with the Vs, you're forced to buy that god awful hardcase, which costs like 125 bucks or something.


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> Nothing insane dude. Just flame maple top, flame maple board, matching headstock with abalone dot inlays and blackburst. ALL standard options.
> 
> Also dont forget that with the Vs, you're forced to buy that god awful hardcase, which costs like 125 bucks or something.


I wouldn't call that standard... I mean the top and headstock sure. But once you add a flamed maple board plus the fact that the V220 is so niche it adds up easy. Personally I think if you can get it down to $2200 I'd say it's still worth it.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> I wouldn't call that standard... I mean the top and headstock sure. But once you add a flamed maple board plus the fact that the V220 is so niche it adds up easy. Personally I think if you can get it down to $2200 I'd say it's still worth it.



Well the point was to get it to the exact specs of my JB200.

And They aren't "standard" as in no upcharge options, but it isn't like some crazy burl maple top with some wild finish or anything.


----------



## wannabguitarist

MatiasTolkki said:


> Nothing insane dude. Just *flame maple top*, *flame maple board*, matching headstock with abalone dot inlays and blackburst. ALL *standard* options.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

wannabguitarist said:


>



Think you missed my follow-up comment.


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> Think you missed my follow-up comment.


Well... I wouldn't call them crazy options, but they are still some pricey upscaled prices. You have to remember that we are talking about actual flamed maple, not veneer like on Ibanez's


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> Well... I wouldn't call them crazy options, but they are still some pricey upscaled prices. You have to remember that we are talking about actual flamed maple, not veneer like on Ibanez's



The Caparison custom line I tried with half the body being flame maple would like a word with my JB200 

All joking aside though, I realize they are pricey options, that aren't helped by the massive increase in price the V models got... that's why when I ordered the V220 I have now, I went as simple as possible, solid color, plain maple fingerboard, nothing fancy.


----------



## feraledge

MatiasTolkki said:


> i've been pondering:
> 
> As much as I hate El farterino snifferino, I've been considering going through with a build I had planned YEARS ago: a V220 that is a carbon copy of my JB200.


At this point, I'm fairly positive Jeff has had the records combed to identify you and there is NO WAY they are going to let you order even if you wanted to. They cut people for far less than the fatwa you're crusading on.


----------



## spudmunkey

I hit $2400, but only if I added a 5-piece maple neck. Did yours have that? i realize i missed the abalone dots, which would be $30 more than the black in the specs below, which makes it $2399. Without the 5-piece neck, it would be $2,250. What were the additional specs you were looking at?

LN - Floyd Rose Locking Nut $30.00
-MA - Maple Neck/Alder Body (Standard) $0.00
-CG - Clear Gloss Finish (Standard) $0.00
FDP - Deep Purple Flame $250.00
BST - Blackburst Edges $40.00
5MM - 5-Piece All-Maple Neck $150.00
NS - Neck Covered By Optional Top Wood $50.00
TN - Tung Oil Finish Back Of Neck (Natural Wood) $60.00
PTH - Pointed Angled 6s Headstock $50.00
FPH - Flamed Maple Headstock Matches Body Finish $50.00
FMF - Flamed Maple Fingerboard (Tung-Oiled) $100.00
ID - Dot Inlays $0.00
IAB - Black Acrylic Inlay Material $20.00
-STF - Stainless Med-Jumbo Frets .048" H .103" W (Standard) $0.00
R12 - 12in Fretboard Radius $40.00
35 - M22SD Bridge Pickup $10.00
43 - M22N Neck Pickup $5.00
-400 - Black Pickup Coils (Standard) $0.00
-PPC - Kiesel Lithium/Beryllium Silver Pickup Poles (Standard) $0.00
BC - Black Hardware $30.00
-46 - Elixir 1046E Light Gauge .010 - .046 (Standard) $0.00
ABL - Abalone Logo $30.00
HC19 - Black Tolex Hardshell Guitar Case $135.00
Custom Shop Total: $2,469.00
Options Discount: $-100.00

Total $2,369.00


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> I hit $2400, but only if I added a 5-piece maple neck. i realize i missed the abalone dots, which would be $30 more than the black in the specs below, which makes it $2399. Without the 5-piece neck, it would be $2,250. What were the additional specs you were looking at?
> 
> LN - Floyd Rose Locking Nut $30.00
> -MA - Maple Neck/Alder Body (Standard) $0.00
> -CG - Clear Gloss Finish (Standard) $0.00
> FDP - Deep Purple Flame $250.00
> BST - Blackburst Edges $40.00
> 5MM - 5-Piece All-Maple Neck $150.00
> NS - Neck Covered By Optional Top Wood $50.00
> TN - Tung Oil Finish Back Of Neck (Natural Wood) $60.00
> PTH - Pointed Angled 6s Headstock $50.00
> FPH - Flamed Maple Headstock Matches Body Finish $50.00
> FMF - Flamed Maple Fingerboard (Tung-Oiled) $100.00
> ID - Dot Inlays $0.00
> IAB - Black Acrylic Inlay Material $20.00
> -STF - Stainless Med-Jumbo Frets .048" H .103" W (Standard) $0.00
> R12 - 12in Fretboard Radius $40.00
> 35 - M22SD Bridge Pickup $10.00
> 43 - M22N Neck Pickup $5.00
> -400 - Black Pickup Coils (Standard) $0.00
> -PPC - Kiesel Lithium/Beryllium Silver Pickup Poles (Standard) $0.00
> BC - Black Hardware $30.00
> -46 - Elixir 1046E Light Gauge .010 - .046 (Standard) $0.00
> ABL - Abalone Logo $30.00
> HC19 - Black Tolex Hardshell Guitar Case $135.00
> Custom Shop Total: $2,469.00
> Options Discount: $-100.00
> 
> Total $2,369.00


That's a VERY custom build too, so I'm not surprised at the price. I just ordered a flame maple Aries 7 and it only came to $1600. Now obviously the Aries 7 is $1050 starting, but that $250 extra still doesn't come to $2400 lol.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Pierced headstock with K-gage - $450


----------



## spudmunkey

It's also $500 more than the identically-spec'd JB200C with the hard case, even though that JB200C price even includes funds that go to Jason and the special truss rod cover. Only $35 of that difference comes from the larger hardshell case over the "normal" hardshell you can get with the jB200C.


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> It's also $500 more than the identically-spec'd JB200C with the hard case, even though that JB200C price even includes funds that go to Jason and the special truss rod cover. Only $35 of that difference comes from the larger hardshell case over the "normal" hardshell you can get with the jB200C.


Wait the JB200C starts at $1700. That's much more than the V220.


----------



## wannabguitarist

MatiasTolkki said:


> Think you missed my follow-up comment.



It looks like I did, sorry about that. I am shocked a flamed maple top is only $250 on the V220. Was expecting more given the weird shape.


----------



## spudmunkey

Albake21 said:


> Wait the JB200C starts at $1700. That's much more than the V220.



Yes, but I was talking about the V220 as-spec'd like the JB200C. The JB200C starts higher, but it's price includes the flamed top, floyd rose, pointy matching headstock, etc etc.


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> Yes, but I was talking about the V220 as-spec'd like the JB200C. The JB200C starts higher, but it's price includes the flamed top, floyd rose, pointy matching headstock, etc etc.


Ohh I didn't know it included all of that. That makes sense now with it's price.


----------



## spudmunkey

When it was launched, and I believe when Matias ordered his, they offered more options on it. There was the JB200SC if you wanted a simple build without a top, and you could get the JB200C with other top woods, or even other colors, all considered "standard options". At some point, they started narrowing the options on the signature models (and in some cases like the ST300 to the JB200C, SH445 to the FG1 and AC275 to the CC275, jettisoning the non-signature versions of those instruments). The JB200C was narrowed to only come bundled as the "Bluey" spec, and I think pretty much the only options that keep the 10-day trial period are one alternate fret size, and the 5-piece maple neck, and I*think* a 1V/1T/5-way blade switch control layout.


----------



## Cynicanal

The last page and a half are the funniest plot twist ever. Mattias has gone full tsundere!


----------



## Albake21

Cynicanal said:


> The last page and a half are the funniest plot twist ever. Mattias has gone full tsundere!


My exact thoughts!


----------



## spudmunkey

Ahh, I just assumed today was "opposite day" in Japan.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> I hit $2400, but only if I added a 5-piece maple neck. Did yours have that? i realize i missed the abalone dots, which would be $30 more than the black in the specs below, which makes it $2399. Without the 5-piece neck, it would be $2,250. What were the additional specs you were looking at?
> 
> LN - Floyd Rose Locking Nut $30.00
> -MA - Maple Neck/Alder Body (Standard) $0.00
> -CG - Clear Gloss Finish (Standard) $0.00
> FDP - Deep Purple Flame $250.00
> BST - Blackburst Edges $40.00
> 5MM - 5-Piece All-Maple Neck $150.00
> NS - Neck Covered By Optional Top Wood $50.00
> TN - Tung Oil Finish Back Of Neck (Natural Wood) $60.00
> PTH - Pointed Angled 6s Headstock $50.00
> FPH - Flamed Maple Headstock Matches Body Finish $50.00
> FMF - Flamed Maple Fingerboard (Tung-Oiled) $100.00
> ID - Dot Inlays $0.00
> IAB - Black Acrylic Inlay Material $20.00
> -STF - Stainless Med-Jumbo Frets .048" H .103" W (Standard) $0.00
> R12 - 12in Fretboard Radius $40.00
> 35 - M22SD Bridge Pickup $10.00
> 43 - M22N Neck Pickup $5.00
> -400 - Black Pickup Coils (Standard) $0.00
> -PPC - Kiesel Lithium/Beryllium Silver Pickup Poles (Standard) $0.00
> BC - Black Hardware $30.00
> -46 - Elixir 1046E Light Gauge .010 - .046 (Standard) $0.00
> ABL - Abalone Logo $30.00
> HC19 - Black Tolex Hardshell Guitar Case $135.00
> Custom Shop Total: $2,469.00
> Options Discount: $-100.00
> 
> Total $2,369.00



Abalone inlanys, Jumbo stainless frets, pointed reverse angled headstock.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> My exact thoughts!



I was talking to a friend on facebook (the same friend who convinced me to buy a Charvel-logo MIJ RR) and I was showing him old mock-ups that Evster did for me when I was still contemplating what to do about a V220 build, realized I still want a JB200 clone 

HOWEVER, I may be snagging a first or second year v220 used (with a kahler). Still up in the air.


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> Abalone inlanys, Jumbo stainless frets, pointed reverse angled headstock.



Ahh, OK. Since jumbo stainless frets are now the same price as medium jumbo that wouldn't change it, and I called out the abalone up top so that added $30, and the reverse pointy is the same price as the headstock I used.


----------



## Vyn

Andromalia said:


> For the record Meestursparkle is legit, bought two guitars off him. Best packaging in the business, too.



He's got nothing listed on eBay at the moment and hasn't had for a while. Not sure if he's still in the game.



Cynicanal said:


> The last page and a half are the funniest plot twist ever. Mattias has gone full tsundere!



I'm finding this far funnier than I should xD


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Guess everyone skipped over the part where i said I might have a chance at a V220 from the first couple years it was made, and I'm gearing towards going after that and not some new Kiesel.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

spudmunkey said:


> Ahh, I just assumed today was "opposite day" in Japan.


Uhh... isn't everyday?


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Uhh... isn't everyday?



And here comes the Japan bashing.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

MatiasTolkki said:


> And here comes the Japan bashing.


Yeah, because saying "isn't everyday backwards day in Japan" is totally bashing bro.


----------



## Hollowway

Yeah, I’m a HUGE fan of Japan. In no small part because a lot of things are opposite of the US. 

Here’s a curious on-topic question for anyone in the know: why is hot pink not a standard paint color? It’s a translucent stain option, but the only pink paint color is the soft bubblegum pink. It’s still an option 50, as far as I can tell, yet it’s hugely popular as an option (based on NGDs with it).


----------



## spudmunkey

It may eventually. That new Tropic color was a custom request so popular they made it a standard option. They've done that going all the way back to Dragonburst, too.


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> And here comes the Japan bashing.


Aren't you not even Japanese? lol


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, I’m a HUGE fan of Japan. In no small part because a lot of things are opposite of the US.
> 
> Here’s a curious on-topic question for anyone in the know: why is hot pink not a standard paint color? It’s a translucent stain option, but the only pink paint color is the soft bubblegum pink. It’s still an option 50, as far as I can tell, yet it’s hugely popular as an option (based on NGDs with it).



I thought it was a standard option. I remember some time ago Jeff announced it as a new color on a livestream.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> Aren't you not even Japanese? lol



No I'm not, but I have made my life here for a 3rd of my life, and most of my adult life, so this is home to me.


----------



## Albake21

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, I’m a HUGE fan of Japan. In no small part because a lot of things are opposite of the US.
> 
> Here’s a curious on-topic question for anyone in the know: why is hot pink not a standard paint color? It’s a translucent stain option, but the only pink paint color is the soft bubblegum pink. It’s still an option 50, as far as I can tell, yet it’s hugely popular as an option (based on NGDs with it).


I'm pretty sure it is, their website just isn't updated fully yet. There are a few colors that have no been added yet like tropic blue and aurora blue.


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> No I'm not, but I have made my life here for a 3rd of my life, and most of my adult life, so this is home to me.


That's really cool to be honest. Out curiosity, what do you do for work?


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> That's really cool to be honest. Out curiosity, what do you do for work?



I have been a stereotypical teacher for the whole time, but hopefully this year I'll get my permanent residency and I can find something better (working visa restrictions prevent me from doing anything normal).


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> I have been a stereotypical teacher for the whole time, but hopefully this year I'll get my permanent residency and I can find something better (working visa restrictions prevent me from doing anything normal).


Ahh nice. I feel like that's what most Americans/foreigners do in Japan.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> Ahh nice. I feel like that's what most Americans/foreigners do in Japan.



It pays the bills at least. Once I get PR though, I will have SOOOO much more open to me.


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> It pays the bills at least. Once I get PR though, I will have SOOOO much more open to me.


Well good luck to you man! I'd love to do what you're doing.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> Well good luck to you man! I'd love to do what you're doing.



It has it's ups and downs, especially when you know the teaching industry in Japan is always looking for "young" people, not older people like me. Lots of age discrimination, especially among foreigners. Of course, there's a dark underbelly to everything in life, so take that how you will.


----------



## spudmunkey

Albake21 said:


> I'm pretty sure it is, their website just isn't updated fully yet. There are a few colors that have no been added yet like tropic blue and aurora blue.



And Daisy, and Graphite, and Scarlet, and Black-Out Ash, and Whiskey even though they forgot they already had a finish called Whiskey...which also wasn't on line...and Summer ash, and...Primer Gray... not to mention there's apparently an "acoustic" finish that is a $50 option on the Zeus Acoustic...which isn't even online yet.


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> And Daisy, and Graphite, and Scarlet, and Black-Out Ash, and Whiskey even though they forgot they already had a finish called Whiskey...which also wasn't on line...and Summer ash, and...Primer Gray... not to mention there's apparently an "acoustic" finish that is a $50 option on the Zeus Acoustic...which isn't even online yet.


Yeah it really annoys me that their website is not updated. They literally have a guy hired to run the site and he does nothing. Everytime someone brings it up to Jeff on the Q&A he just says "I keep telling my guy to update it, but he just hasn't gotten around to it" Seriously? What the hell do you hire him for then? Poor management by Jeff on the website.


----------



## spudmunkey

I wonder if it's the same person that might be working on the internal OS? I've heard hints on FB that they've been working on revamping the "back of house" stuff for a while now, and some of those messages sounded more legit in the past 6 mo or so, and updating the website will only help so much until that mess is untangled and streamlined. The same guy who ran/runs the carvinmuseum.com website works(worked?) on the website itself. I'm not 100% sure if he (is/was) actually an employee or a contractor, but he lives in Tennessee (or at least did for years)

Although...at the same time, if anything changes with option codes, etc...expect an increase in mistakes, too. They have people there who have had "virtual builders" in their heads just from locking at a string of codes for a couple decades, and changing those up is bound to catch those people off every so often. Not a dig on Kiesel, that happened everywhere.


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> I've heard hints on FB that they've been working on revamping the "back of house" stuff for a while now, and some of those messages sounded more legit in the past 6 mo or so, and updating the website will only help so much until that mess is untangled and streamlined.


The problem is, they have been saying this for so long now. I've almost given up at this point. It's just ridiculous to me as I guarantee their horrible website is hurting their business. People want an easy, streamlined order process. It's worth it in my opinion for Jeff to invest more into their website.


----------



## spudmunkey

Agreed. Even if they still don't have a "virtual builder", it still could be made much easier to use...but also there's lots of little things that could be done to make it easier to navigate, even ignoring the builder.

While the general "guitars" and "bass" pages have gone through some revisions in the past couple of years, and this is the best one, it's still clumbsy. There should be a way to "filter", or at the very least, re-arrange the quick links at the top into something more logical. Separate out the "Signature Models", for example, rather than having them sort of in the middle for no rhyme or reason. A bunch of the pages on the website are seemingly only accessible by using the "quick links" on the bottom of the front page. I think most people aren't even aware there's a gallery that you can sort by top wood, model, finish, etc. For a custom shop, a gallery should be a highlight, rather than buried in a tiny text link among dozens on the bottom of the page.


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> I think most people aren't even aware there's a gallery that you can sort by top wood, model, finish, etc. For a custom shop, a gallery should be a highlight, rather than buried in a tiny text link among dozens on the bottom of the page.


My exact thoughts...


----------



## MatiasTolkki

This is why you never get an op50 build, to avoid dealing with shit like that.


----------



## CapinCripes

MatiasTolkki said:


> HOWEVER, I may be snagging a first or second year v220 used (with a kahler). Still up in the air.


Do it, best decision of my life.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

CapinCripes said:


> Do it, best decision of my life.



Yeah, i'd like it, just waiting to see what happens. I'd love it snag it though.


----------



## laxu

Albake21 said:


> The problem is, they have been saying this for so long now. I've almost given up at this point. It's just ridiculous to me as I guarantee their horrible website is hurting their business. People want an easy, streamlined order process. It's worth it in my opinion for Jeff to invest more into their website.



You would be surprised by how crappy a site can be but still sell stuff just fine. As long as the order process is not completely broken, people are willing to put up with less than ideal workflows to get what they want.

I'm a web developer and currently working on a completely custom-made e-commerce service for a client as part of a small team and I can tell you it's a lot of work for both the frontend visible to customers and the backend handling all the orders. It's not cheap if you don't have in-house developers so I totally understand why they are not all that interested in overhauling the website.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

laxu said:


> You would be surprised by how crappy a site can be but still sell stuff just fine. As long as the order process is not completely broken, people are willing to put up with less than ideal workflows to get what they want.
> 
> I'm a web developer and currently working on a completely custom-made e-commerce service for a client as part of a small team and I can tell you it's a lot of work for both the frontend visible to customers and the backend handling all the orders. It's not cheap if you don't have in-house developers so I totally understand why they are not all that interested in overhauling the website.



I mean at least they should put ALL standard, non-op50 options on the site, just so they dont have lame off-menu stuff that people have to ask about. I think that's unfair to customers, and I know for a fact that I dont wanna see that fool's face on a livestream, and to have to sit through hours upon hours of livestreams just to find out what's available is bullshit.


----------



## laxu

MatiasTolkki said:


> I mean at least they should put ALL standard, non-op50 options on the site, just so they dont have lame off-menu stuff that people have to ask about.



Oh I totally agree plus they should clarify what counts as non-returnable because to me it's weird that their NAMM models for example were non-returnable when they could have just been sold as "might have some signs of wear" guitars. Right now it's like secret menus of Chinese restaurants.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

laxu said:


> Oh I totally agree plus they should clarify what counts as non-returnable because to me it's weird that their NAMM models for example were non-returnable when they could have just been sold as "might have some signs of wear" guitars.



What I've noticed is that in the last couple years, since about a year after the split, is the LARGE number of non-returnables in the GIS section. I agree with the NAMM models, why the heck should WE be responsible for something THEY made of their own free will?


----------



## spudmunkey

I look at it this way: The GIS is also just a menu of what they have available in-store. If they have it in the showroom, they also put it online. They had that Aries double neck online...but it sold from the store. They sold that Sapphire DC800. It sold from the store if I remember right.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

There's more non-returnable stuff in general. 

They originally made off the menu, Option 50, stuff non-returnable because 9/10 times it resulted in a guitar that was objectively harder to sell. At least that's what employees had told me over the years when I asked for something that would fall in under Option 50. 

Now it seems they just don't really want to honor the old return policy unless they absolutely have to. I get it, that thing was great. 

It's also worth mentioning that with the rise of social media, it's more worth while to create in stock showcase/specialty builds to hype the brand.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Just some minor complaining:

GOD FUCKING DAMMIT WHY DOES MY JB200 HAVE TO BE SO AWESOME? 

Okay I'm done now.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> I think most people aren't even aware there's a gallery that you can sort by top wood, model, finish, etc. For a custom shop, a gallery should be a highlight, rather than buried in a tiny text link among dozens on the bottom of the page.



+1. I've been going on that thing for at least a decade. It's a huge help, and, IMO, better than a virtual builder. If it were me, I'd put literally every build in there, and make that the highlight of the site. There are some really, really cool spec combos that I'd never have thought of on my own, but would love to copy. But, unless you camp out on their social media, and the "pics from social media" thread on the bbs (both of which I am guilty of) you'd never see so many cool, but atypical, builds. If there's one thing that Kiesel has that no one else does, it's a ridiculously high combination of specs. They should be promoting that. Most people buy with their eyes, so why not make that site super sticky with loads of eye candy?


----------



## Soya

MatiasTolkki said:


> And here comes the Japan bashing.


Relax, ease up a bit, and take a joke sometimes man. The full throttle reiterating of your opinions is well documented. You love Japan, we get it.


----------



## Vinoo Matthew

Is Kiesel a reliable, honest maker of high-quality guitars? I know Carvin's quality was impeccable, but I don't know much about Kiesel. I need to know because I live halfway across the world from the US and I find they're pretty difficult to communicate with on email - they probably prefer phone calls. Their acknowledgement email says, "Kiesel Guitars receives hundreds of emails every day, and it takes time to respond to them all."


----------



## Spicypickles

Their guitars are mostly known as Being fairly high quality, but their customer service seems to be the issue. If you keep it simple in the specs, nothing crazy and non-returnable, you’ll likely end up with a perfectly fine guitar. Their ratio of qc issues is likely the same percentage as most other companies.


----------



## Vinoo Matthew

Thanks, man. Appreciate that. I don't intend to ask for huge departures. S6 with a few options from the Guitar Builder Tool, nothing non-returnable except for a tele-style bridge.


----------



## Albake21

Spicypickles said:


> Their guitars are mostly known as Being fairly high quality, but their customer service seems to be the issue. If you keep it simple in the specs, nothing crazy and non-returnable, you’ll likely end up with a perfectly fine guitar. Their ratio of qc issues is likely the same percentage as most other companies.


Agreed, well said.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> There's more non-returnable stuff in general.



While true, and I'm sure I touched on it in the "Never again..." thread, but much of that is on things that they just never offered, or would have flat-out refused to do.

I remember whenever someone would get them to do a custom burst, it was big news! Even something as simple as a blue-to-red burst, or a "reverse dragonburst". There was an upswing in them willing to do more, which seems to have correlated in Jeff getting older and more involved behind the scenes, if the timeline in my head makes sense. By the time the PB bass rolled out in 2013, that was a Jeff-designed model, and he had already been doing custom finishes and even supposedly treated boards for years before that. I can't say if those previous non-standard bursts (even when made from standard colors) were returnable or not, though. After the SH550 was lauched, I remember someone wanted one painted in opaque black paint, and with a inline pointy headstock. After a long back-and-forth I know they agreed to do it, but I remember it was talk-of-the-town over on the forum when he said it wouldn't be returnable, that they would only do it if it still came with the flamed top under the black paint (because back then the base spec was flamed maple and they refused to build any with lower-cost woods) and that there wouldn't be a discount on cheaper wood even if they did agree to it.

Nothing about that build was something they didn't offer on other models, and yet it still took lots of effort to convince them to do it.

What is clear though, is that many of the NEW options are non-returnable. Things they never offered before. Buckeye burl, their raw tone satin finish, etc. I don't remember seeing all that many NAMM builds on the in-stock store more than a couple years ago. It seems like they just brought fewer to NAMM, and then sold them through the factory store. So having them online but not returnable isn't all that much of a change in policy.

I'm not discounting that there also haven't been increases in what's non-returnable from things that used to be OK like the pickup situation (them installing your own pickup, even if it fits the standard routes, is non-returnable even if it's their old older pickups you happen to have lying around (or specifically purchased for a future build)), but the vast majority of things that are non-returnable would have simply gotten a "no" not-all-that-many years ago.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

@spudmunkey 

Using Carvin pickups in your build by replacing the garbage they offer as standard is non-returnable? Oh jesus christ that is so much bullshit.


----------



## spudmunkey

I agree. Since it seems like they still HAVE the pickups available to order on a build from the factrory, maybe that's a part of it (similar to how they don't accept customer's-own-tops if it's a wood they already carry in-house)...but it's a hard line: you send in pickups, there's a cost and it's non-returnable, no matter who they are from.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

Changing topic slightly:

What effects, if any, do you folks feel Jeff’s direction of the brand has had on Kiesel resale trends in recent years through to the present?

Up until around a year ago, eBay and Reverb listings had a way of giving the impression that the 22-pole pickups were products only you were hip to: You could always find sets of them for around $60 US, you never had to worry about string spacing, and you could always resell them for what you paid.

Same went for many of the base Carvin guitar models: Once the original owner took that initial 40-60% resale loss (regardless of how many times they included “owned by misha mansoor of periphery” in the title, body, and shipping fields), the build-quality and certainty the guitar wouldn’t depreciate much further were, to me, the reality of where the value of the Carvin brand rested and, in that respect, second-to-none. IMO, this alone is what fueled the general good will toward the brand; with the image of a small, family-operated custom shop that sold factory-direct merely reinforcing it.

There were many occasions between 2013-‘18 that I nearly pulled the plug on a sub-$800 Holdsworth guitar, and more occasions in which I bought a $40-$80 set of H22 pickups. The occasions in which I didn’t in-no-way reflected on the brand on a negative light. One of the best things you can say for a brand in the used market is to regard them as a “next time” purchase when you end up snagging a competing product instead.

At present, though...

The artificial scarcity of the 22-pole pickups caused by their announced perpetual discontinuation, combined with the span in which Lithium sales were artificially inflated by making them mandatory in new builds, has resulted in a flood of resold Jeff-Isn’t-Taking-His-Lithium set listings that, if anybody wanted, they’d likely already own them in a Kiesel guitar they were forced to include them in. And the ‘22 sets are either being hoarded or parted out individually at prices above competitors they were previously considered thrifty alternatives to.

Furthermore, Jeff’s abandonment of the 22-pole format, combined with an unwillingness to produce 12-pole bridge pickups in industry-standard F-spacing (at least since I last checked) means that I never even consider the occasional dozen crops of new listings of surplus Lithium or Parallax pickups, on the offchance that I’d have to replace them with something aesthetically-correct before selling the guitar.

And the used guitars? In the past three years, I’ve averaged a calendar month between NGDs and the “barely played mint” listings on this site and the auction sites. And the clown vomit-palette people dream up in the antiquated builder that only lets you _imagine_ what a Kiesel Racing Blue Waffle Infection body combined with gold binding across the asymmetrical bevel that sits _on top _of the spalted body beforeyou agree to pay the build deposit has resulted in listings that should regularly be updated to include the cobwebs.

This creates situations in which someone _curious _about speccing out a custom Kiesel Priapus build in the decades-obsolete builder is confronted with a cost difference of more than a hundred percent between a new build that _doesn’t_ look like a dog ate a box of Christmas decorations, and a used listing that does. The potential buyer decides that a 9-10 week build time leaves too many opportunities for regret, and ends up buying neither Kiesel product.

I contend that the regard of potential buyers walking away from a purchase with a “meh”, rather than a “next time” sentiment, is all Jeff Kiesel will be remembered for doing with his family’s legacy. And I feel the used market has finally filtered out enough of the past good will toward Carvin to reflect the present sentiment (whatever that may be to you).


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Well i know for a fact here in Japan that pretty tops means overpriced resellers for the "Kiesel" name, but Carvins (outside a couple DC400s that are WAY overpriced for what they are) are typically dirt cheap. Hell, I saw a Bolt + on ishibashi a couple weeks ago that only went for around 54000 yen, which is INSANE for a used Carvin over here (insane as in SUPER cheap). I found a pretty beat up DC200 in black for 100,000, but while it sounded incredible, too many dings for my liking, especially at that price.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

You’d certainly have a better idea of how Calvinu/Kisuru resale trends in Japan have changed in the years since Jeff-sama’s ascent in his own divine prefecture - I have no idea how long initial import costs affect resales there.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> You’d certainly have a better idea of how Calvinu/Kisuru resale trends in Japan have changed in the years since Jeff-sama’s ascent in his own divine prefecture - I have no idea how long initial import costs affect resales there.



when my V220 arrived, i only had to pay applicable consumption tax, 8 percent


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> Changing topic slightly:
> 
> What effects, if any, do you folks feel Jeff’s direction of the brand has had on Kiesel resale trends in recent years through to the present?
> 
> Up until around a year ago, eBay and Reverb listings had a way of giving the impression that the 22-pole pickups were products only you were hip to: You could always find sets of them for around $60 US, you never had to worry about string spacing, and you could always resell them for what you paid.
> 
> Same went for many of the base Carvin guitar models: Once the original owner took that initial 40-60% resale loss (regardless of how many times they included “owned by misha mansoor of periphery” in the title, body, and shipping fields), the build-quality and certainty the guitar wouldn’t depreciate much further were, to me, the reality of where the value of the Carvin brand rested and, in that respect, second-to-none. IMO, this alone is what fueled the general good will toward the brand; with the image of a small, family-operated custom shop that sold factory-direct merely reinforcing it.
> 
> There were many occasions between 2013-‘18 that I nearly pulled the plug on a sub-$800 Holdsworth guitar, and more occasions in which I bought a $40-$80 set of H22 pickups. The occasions in which I didn’t in-no-way reflected on the brand on a negative light. One of the best things you can say for a brand in the used market is to regard them as a “next time” purchase when you end up snagging a competing product instead.
> 
> At present, though...
> 
> The artificial scarcity of the 22-pole pickups caused by their announced perpetual discontinuation, combined with the span in which Lithium sales were artificially inflated by making them mandatory in new builds, has resulted in a flood of resold Jeff-Isn’t-Taking-His-Lithium set listings that, if anybody wanted, they’d likely already own them in a Kiesel guitar they were forced to include them in. And the ‘22 sets are either being hoarded or parted out individually at prices above competitors they were previously considered thrifty alternatives to.
> 
> Furthermore, Jeff’s abandonment of the 22-pole format, combined with an unwillingness to produce 12-pole bridge pickups in industry-standard F-spacing (at least since I last checked) means that I never even consider the occasional dozen crops of new listings of surplus Lithium or Parallax pickups, on the offchance that I’d have to replace them with something aesthetically-correct before selling the guitar.
> 
> And the used guitars? In the past three years, I’ve averaged a calendar month between NGDs and the “barely played mint” listings on this site and the auction sites. And the clown vomit-palette people dream up in the antiquated builder that only lets you _imagine_ what a Kiesel Racing Blue Waffle Infection body combined with gold binding across the asymmetrical bevel that sits _on top _of the spalted body beforeyou agree to pay the build deposit has resulted in listings that should regularly be updated to include the cobwebs.
> 
> This creates situations in which someone _curious _about speccing out a custom Kiesel Priapus build in the decades-obsolete builder is confronted with a cost difference of more than a hundred percent between a new build that _doesn’t_ look like a dog ate a box of Christmas decorations, and a used listing that does. The potential buyer decides that a 9-10 week build time leaves too many opportunities for regret, and ends up buying neither Kiesel product.
> 
> I contend that the regard of potential buyers walking away from a purchase with a “meh”, rather than a “next time” sentiment, is all Jeff Kiesel will be remembered for doing with his family’s legacy. And I feel the used market has finally filtered out enough of the past good will toward Carvin to reflect the present sentiment (whatever that may be to you).



I'm far from a Jeff Kiesel apologist, but credit where credit is due, he's done a lot of positives for the brand. 

He's consolidated "dead weight" offerings, while still significantly expanding what is available from both a base model/shape standpoint and as far as customization options. 

He's also made the brand far more popular and known to the regular player. 

Lets not pretend Carvin was perfect.


----------



## Snarpaasi

That's true Jeff has made the brand more popular, but I doubt whether "all publicity is good publicity" statement holds. I think a brand is quite vulnerable if it's about one person, even though it is the ultimate dream of a pure narcissist. Jeff has his djent-boys whose builds "look like a dog ate a box of Christmas decorations"  but I would assume he'd "show some respect" to his legacy. That doesn't mean you couldn't renew the business, but drifting away from high-quality, affordable semi-customs is/was their competitive advantage. Nowadays there are so many small yet growing and quite popular luthiers that there's no way I'd give my money to Jeff the douche.

Btw is the company's financial statements publicly available somewhere?

Disclaimer: I love my DC127 '09.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Snarpaasi said:


> That's true Jeff has made the brand more popular, but I doubt whether "all publicity is good publicity" statement holds. I think a brand is quite vulnerable if it's about one person, even though it is the ultimate dream of a pure narcissist. Jeff has his djent-boys whose builds "look like a dog ate a box of Christmas decorations"  but I would assume he'd "show some respect" to his legacy. That doesn't mean you couldn't renew the business, but drifting away from high-quality, affordable semi-customs is/was their competitive advantage. Nowadays there are so many small yet growing and quite popular luthiers that there's no way I'd give my money to Jeff the douche.
> 
> Btw is the company's financial statements publicly available somewhere?
> 
> Disclaimer: I love my DC127 '09.



What percentage of guitarist or bassists care about who makes thier gear, let alone who owns the company that does?

We do, but we're definitely in the "guitar nerd" minority. 

I also wouldn't say they're heading away from "high-quality, affordable semi-customs". Sure, it's easier than ever to deck out a DC to over $2500, but it's not like folks didn't occasionally do that before. The actual base prices haven't gone up too much relative to the rest of the industry.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

The problem with the price increases is that they completely wrecked the affordable V market. Why would I buy an Ultra V when I found my Charvel CRR for only 30,000 yen? I cna buy used Jackson USA RR1s for cheaper than speccing out an Ultra V/V220/X220 nowwadays. I could also hit the used market as well.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

MatiasTolkki said:


> The problem with the price increases is that they completely wrecked the affordable V market _*for my very specific situation*_.



FTFY


----------



## MatiasTolkki

MaxOfMetal said:


> FTFY



Yes, but if buying international becomes too expensive, why should I buy expensive stuff when I can find nice stuff for much cheaper? 

And for the record, EVERYONE has a specific situation and as customers we are selfish and only consider our situations when purchasing. Acting like that's some sort of bad thing is misguided and wrong.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

MatiasTolkki said:


> Yes, but if buying international becomes too expensive, why should I buy expensive stuff when I can find nice stuff for much cheaper?
> 
> And for the record, EVERYONE has a specific situation and as customers we are selfish and only consider our situations when purchasing. Acting like that's some sort of bad thing is misguided and wrong.



You miss the point.

The price changes only effect a very, very small cross section of potential customers. Potential being the most important part.

It's not like they instituted increases that would scare off most buyers.


----------



## spudmunkey

In reference to resale, it seems that the last few years of increased exposure of the Kiesel brand to the money-spending age , and more of them leaning about how they relate to the old Carvin brand, seems to have increase the resale price of used Carvins.

I don't believe "scarcity of the 22-pole pickups" has yet to be an issue...since you can buy any you want still from Kiesel as parts, and still on factory builds. Perhaps some folks are hording them due to the _impending_ scarcity?

I think a thing to keep in mind is that once a guitar is more than just a few years old, the trades start to slow down on them. Once they are "used" and no longer "like new", or 10+ years old, in my opinion anyway, they tend to find their forever home. Of course that's not always the case obviously, and of course there are exceptions...but with any brand that is still making instruments currently, I find that the vast majority of what's out there on the used market is newer. With Kiesel, you have an interesting scenario because 4 years ago they about stopped using one brand name, and started using another. So it'll be an interesting way to really quantify "old carvin vs new Kiesel" in a few years. What I mean is that Carvins are reaching the age where they are less likely to be traded back-and-forth and flipped, and are more likely settling into their "forever" homes. Again and again, I should clarify that this is only my own observation, but one I've had for a few years.

For the last few months though, it's been a strange time on my local Craigslist (in Kiesel's home state...not that it really matters but i feel like there's some benefit to being only a day's drive away from the factory and I know several people who made a detour to San Diego with their SoCal vacations, and there even used to be a store here in Sacramento which is a part of my Craigslist area range). There are currently 5 Carvins, and ZERO Kiesels listed. I'm not sure what to make of that. Ha! One of them is a 6-string LB with a quilted maple top going for $399, because he modified it to be a wide-spaced 6-string, but still has the old nut and bridge to include. A weird, weird time.


----------



## Vinoo Matthew

I wrote to Kiesel saying I wanted their S6 because I was looking for a Tele-style guitar. I asked them if they could switch their standard Hipshot bridge to a Hipshot Tele Bridge. Their reply, "We only install our bridges that we have. As for fitment of swapping it out, it doesn’t look like it will be the same, but it will cover the holes of the old bridge." So it's 'Take what we give, but hey, the one you want will cover the holes you don't want'. Their "Compare Pickups" page doesn't mention the word 'Lithium' anywhere (https://www.kieselguitars.com/pickups/). I asked for pickups that were similar to the front/back ones of a strat but not hotter, they suggested the S60As, which are described as "HIGHER OUTPUT THAN STRAT® PICKUPS". Hello? That is specifically NOT what I asked for. They didn't even suggest the 11-polepiece single that's listed. The 22 isn't even on the site anymore.

A waste of time


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Vinoo Matthew said:


> I wrote to Kiesel saying I wanted their S6 because I was looking for a Tele-style guitar. I asked them if they could switch their standard Hipshot bridge to a Hipshot Tele Bridge. Their reply, "We only install our bridges that we have. As for fitment of swapping it out, it doesn’t look like it will be the same, but it will cover the holes of the old bridge." So it's 'Take what we give, but hey, the one you want will cover the holes you don't want'. Their "Compare Pickups" page doesn't mention the word 'Lithium' anywhere (https://www.kieselguitars.com/pickups/). I asked for pickups that were similar to the front/back ones of a strat but not hotter, they suggested the S60As, which are described as "HIGHER OUTPUT THAN STRAT® PICKUPS". Hello? That is specifically NOT what I asked for. They didn't even suggest the 11-polepiece single that's listed. The 22 isn't even on the site anymore.
> 
> A waste of time



Not quite sure what you were expecting really. 

They told you that they weren't going to do a one-off bridge, which is responsible, said that if you really really really absolutely needed it you could fit one yourself and that it wouldn't leave any holes uncovered.

As for pickups, the ones they recommended are the closest to what you seem to be looking for. They just don't offer exactly what you want. 

There are builders who will do exactly what you want, but you're going to have to pay a lot more. 

Kiesel is more about semi-customs within thier offered options. They don't do full customs.


----------



## Albake21

MaxOfMetal said:


> Not quite sure what you were expecting really.
> 
> They told you that they weren't going to do a one-off bridge, which is responsible, said that if you really really really absolutely needed it you could fit one yourself and that it wouldn't leave any holes uncovered.
> 
> As for pickups, the ones they recommended are the closest to what you seem to be looking for. They just don't offer exactly what you want.
> 
> There are builders who will do exactly what you want, but you're going to have to pay a lot more.
> 
> Kiesel is more about semi-customs within thier offered options. They don't do full customs.


People really need to keep this in mind. They truly are just a semi-custom shop. They have options that you get to choose from. Not fully custom.


----------



## spudmunkey

The analogy I give folks unfamiliar is that kiesel is less like a personal chef and more like a pizza shop with a huge selection of crusts, sauces, cheeses, meats, and veggies...and you can even order one half-baked (badum-bum....a little dig on all those "half-baked" finish/wood combination ideas there...).

They might even be willing to make you a calzone, if they are slow or if the chef's in a good mood...and they'll even make you an oven-baked grinder if you send them the bread...but they can't make you pad thai if they don't have fish sauce and peanuts and it's not worth it to them to change the way they cook the food to source or work in ingredients that don't fit their efficiency model. But if you want a garlic-flavored, stuffed-crust pizza with 3 meats and a tomato and basil sauce and crimini mushrooms, you'll pay for it and it'll be pretty good and maybe even great...and if you want them to make you just a simple plain cheese pizza? They can make that too, and it'll still be a rockin' pizza at not-a-bad price.


----------



## bostjan

spudmunkey said:


> The analogy I give them is that of a pizza shop with a huge selection of crusts, sauces, cheeses, meats, and veggies...and you can even order one half-baked (badum-bum....a little dig on all those "half-baked" finish/wood combination ideas there...).
> 
> They might even be willing to make you a calzone, if they are slow or if the chef's in a good mood...and they'll even make you an oven-baked grinder if you send them the bread...but they can't make you pad thai if they don't have fish sauce and peanuts and it's not worth it to them to change the way they cook the food to source or work in ingredients that don't fit their efficiency model.


I was just typing almost that exact analogy when you posted...weird.


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> The analogy I give them is that of a pizza shop with a huge selection of crusts, sauces, cheeses, meats, and veggies...and you can even order one half-baked (badum-bum....a little dig on all those "half-baked" finish/wood combination ideas there...).
> 
> They might even be willing to make you a calzone, if they are slow or if the chef's in a good mood...and they'll even make you an oven-baked grinder if you send them the bread...but they can't make you pad thai if they don't have fish sauce and peanuts and it's not worth it to them to change the way they cook the food to source or work in ingredients that don't fit their efficiency model.


Lol not bad, not too bad at all.


----------



## spudmunkey

Vinoo Matthew said:


> Their "Compare Pickups" page doesn't mention the word 'Lithium' anywhere (https://www.kieselguitars.com/pickups/). I asked for pickups that were similar to the front/back ones of a strat but not hotter, they suggested the S60As, which are described as "HIGHER OUTPUT THAN STRAT® PICKUPS". Hello? That is specifically NOT what I asked for. They didn't even suggest the 11-polepiece single that's listed. The 22 isn't even on the site anymore.



Their website has always trailed, at least since they've been on this break-neck pace the last few years. I mean...how long as the acoustic Zeus been out and it's still not online? It's partially from not devoting enough resources to the web (at this point, it should almost just be a blank page with their number on it, saying "CALL MY GUYS!"), and also because it seems like Jeff just likes to jump ahead and share things that aren't quite ready yet...like they can't really have the Zeus acoustic on the web until they have examples photographed of each variation (the last time they put it up with only using photos of the 6-string, they got crap for it), but he wanted to share the first one. And loads of people seem to be buying them even though they aren't on the web yet. Consider it a "soft launch", I suppose...like a "pre-grand-opening" if they were a restaurant.

Part of the issue is: what is a "strat" pickup? You can buy a strat with any number of pickups that vary. Just like if one were to say "I want a Mustang engine", when there's everything from a turbo 4 to a supercharged 8 cyl. I'm sure just like in the mustang's case that someone is likely refering to the 5.0L V8 that there's likely a specific type that's more common in strats than others, but they are also another company. If you asked a chinese restaurant to suggest something like another chinese restaurant across town, they might not have something to match exactly, but will suggest something as close as they think will work for you.

Yes, another food analogy...I need to go grab lunch, I think.

I'm also not sure what you mean about the 11 or 22 pole pickups not being online. They are all shown on the "parts" page on their website available for purchase. As long as I've been using the online builder (admittedly only since about 2007), they have never shown all of the pickup models being available on each model on the builder. There were always pickups left off.

I could be wrong, but I think the only "legacy" pickup no longer available on new builds might be the covered S22. I think they'll even use their active A60/A70/A80 pickups if you're ordering a model that used to come with them already.


----------



## bostjan

Continuing the analogy, though, the Kiesel pizza shop has a money-back guarantee. As long as you don't get anchovies, olives, or parmesean crust, as long as you are willing to pay the delivery fee again for the delivery boy to come pick it up from your house, and as long as you are cool with the kitchen staff trying to fix however they made your pizza wrong, you can return it for free. Then, if it gets delivered the second time and it's still overcooked or whatever, you'll be banned for life from ever ordering there again. 

But yeah, as long as they make your pizza the way you actually ordered it, and you don't mind that the cook wrote his name all over it with the pizza cutter, it's actually pretty good pizza...maybe even okay pizza for the price.


----------



## Vletrmx

bostjan said:


> But yeah, as long as they make your pizza the way you actually ordered it, and you don't mind that the cook wrote his name all over it with the pizza cutter, it's actually pretty good pizza...maybe even okay pizza for the price.



Also if you don't mind that the pizza is a giant Lunchable that isn't made in an oven.


----------



## Cynicanal

MatiasTolkki said:


> The problem with the price increases is that they completely wrecked the affordable V market. Why would I buy an Ultra V when I found my Charvel CRR for only 30,000 yen? I cna buy used Jackson USA RR1s for cheaper than speccing out an Ultra V/V220/X220 nowwadays. I could also hit the used market as well.


I just checked -- the cheapest you can get a right-handed RR1 for on Reverb in decent condition is $2100; mint condition is going to push it close to $3000. A similarly specced Ultra V costs $1650 brand new. Take off $60 if you're fine with the standard neck profile, and another $60 if you're fine with the standard headstock.


----------



## spudmunkey

Vletrmx said:


> Also if you don't mind that the pizza is a giant Lunchable that isn't made in an oven.



Yes, they also have guitar kits.


----------



## xzacx

Cynicanal said:


> I just checked -- the cheapest you can get a right-handed RR1 for on Reverb in decent condition is $2100; mint condition is going to push it close to $3000. A similarly specced Ultra V costs $1650 brand new. Take off $60 if you're fine with the standard neck profile, and another $60 if you're fine with the standard headstock.



I've paid $1200 for a mint RR1. The good ones just sell fast. They're pretty regularly available in that range.


----------



## CapinCripes

xzacx said:


> I've paid $1200 for a mint RR1. The good ones just sell fast. They're pretty regularly available in that range.


1400 for one with a graphic and great condition. Problem is that a LOT of people think they can get new price or sometimes extravagantly more than new for used usa jacksons. reasonable prices pop up on occasion, just gotta look. It would have to be a special RR for me to spring more than 2k used.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> People really need to keep this in mind. They truly are just a semi-custom shop. They have options that you get to choose from. Not fully custom.



I agree. I like the idea of semi-customs more tbh, because full customs, like what ESP does, cost so much money that it's almost infeasible to get one unless you sell an unborn child or something.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Cynicanal said:


> I just checked -- the cheapest you can get a right-handed RR1 for on Reverb in decent condition is $2100; mint condition is going to push it close to $3000. A similarly specced Ultra V costs $1650 brand new. Take off $60 if you're fine with the standard neck profile, and another $60 if you're fine with the standard headstock.



That's reverb, NOT Japan. 

Here is the only RR1 available in Japan right now:

https://www.digimart.net/cat01/shop5000/DS04569926/

This is one of the more expensive ones, as sometimes you can find RR1s as low as this

https://www.digimart.net/cat01/shop4871/DS04593044/


----------



## groverj3

bostjan said:


> Continuing the analogy, though, the Kiesel pizza shop has a money-back guarantee. As long as you don't get *anchovies*, olives, or parmesean crust, as long as you are willing to pay the delivery fee again for the delivery boy to come pick it up from your house, and as long as you are cool with the kitchen staff trying to fix however they made your pizza wrong, you can return it for free. Then, if it gets delivered the second time and it's still overcooked or whatever, you'll be banned for life from ever ordering there again.
> 
> But yeah, as long as they make your pizza the way you actually ordered it, and you don't mind that the cook wrote his name all over it with the pizza cutter, it's actually pretty good pizza...maybe even okay pizza for the price.



If you get anchovies on a pizza then you deserve to have Jeff Kiesel give you the run around on your build.


----------



## xzacx

CapinCripes said:


> 1400 for one with a graphic and great condition. Problem is that a LOT of people think they can get new price or sometimes extravagantly more than new for used usa jacksons. reasonable prices pop up on occasion, just gotta look. It would have to be a special RR for me to spring more than 2k used.



Totally. I paid under $2k for a Shannon-built Rhoads with a handful of unique features that was indistinguishable from brand new. I don’t know who would pay $3k for a mint Rhonds when you can get them brand new for $2,700 befor even negeotiating a further discount.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

xzacx said:


> Totally. I paid under $2k for a Shannon-built Rhoads with a handful of unique features that was indistinguishable from brand new. I don’t know who would pay $3k for a mint Rhonds when you can get them brand new for $2,700 befor even negeotiating a further discount.



Unless you live in Japan and the distributor is a bunch of lazy bastards who put zero effort into the jackson brand (they also do VERY little for people who actually wanna use the custom shop, the aforementioned friend of mine had to get someone to order it for him in the US and have it shipped to Japan after that because the distributor is a bunch of fuckwits.)


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

groverj3 said:


> If you get anchovies on a pizza then you deserve to have Jeff Kiesel give you the run around on your build.


Yeah seriously. What is this, Trading Spaces where they glue straw and hay to the walls?


----------



## TheFashel12

Look at that terrible knot at 30:35


----------



## MatiasTolkki

TheFashel12 said:


> Look at that terrible knot at 30:35




Agreed, that knot looks like shit.


----------



## spudmunkey

I like the back, but not the cracked knot inside under the pickup route. That should have been chopped up for neck-through body wings (to cut the knot out of the middle) or headstock ash veneers or something.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> I like the back, but not the cracked knot inside under the pickup route. That should have been chopped up for neck-through body wings (to cut the knot out of the middle) or headstock ash veneers or something.



How does that idiot rationalize that that sort of knot is acceptable for sale and that it looks "rad?" Jesus christ, after dealing with a complete retard on a facebook page and seeing this, I think i've lost about 30 iq points just today. I might be on the verge of mental retardation if my iq drops any lower.


----------



## spudmunkey

Take a look at any woodworker that does "art". They'll showcase unique and weird pieces. Hell, I'm rebuilding a redwood fence, and I purposefully hand-picked boards with weird figuring, and put those faces towards my side of the yard! So to a point, I understand getting excited about the natural/unusual aspects of wood...but this is one bridge too far, and if I saw it under the pickup, I'd send it back. Again: I have no problem with the back.

Let's just hope Jeff doesn't learn any Japanese, or else he might find out about Kintsukuroi.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> Take a look at any woodworker that does "art". They'll showcase unique and weird pieces. Hell, I'm rebuilding a redwood fence, and I purposefully hand-picked boards with weird figuring, and put those faces towards my side of the yard! So to a point, I understand getting excited about the natural/unusual aspects of wood...but this is one bridge too far, and if I saw it under the pickup, I'd send it back. Again: I have no problem with the back.
> 
> Let's just hope Jeff doesn't learn any Japanese, or else he might find out about Kintsukuroi.



Think you might have that japanese word wrong.


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> Think you might have that japanese word wrong.



Then it's attributed to Japan incorrectly all over the "craft" world.  It could very well be!

it's supposed to be something along the lines of "gold repair" where you highlight flaws and repairs by filling in cracks with gold or silver, etc.


----------



## spudmunkey

OK, see? I'm not crazy. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kintsugi


----------



## MatiasTolkki

I tried to input it in Japanese and it didnt come up right away. I cant read romanized Japanese, gotta give me kanji or I have no clue wtf you're talking about :/


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

MatiasTolkki said:


> I might be on the verge of mental retardation if my iq drops any lower.



You’ve set yourself up to be sig’d, my man.


----------



## Edika

MatiasTolkki said:


> Jesus christ, after dealing with a complete retard on a facebook page and seeing this, I think i've lost about *30 iq points just today*. I might be on the verge of mental retardation if my iq drops any lower.



Oh man you're opening yourself up for a lot of teasing .

Anyway, yeah I can't believe he's considering that knot as a positive aspect on a build. This is Devries level justification of a glaring defect. I hope he at least stabilizes it with some eboxy or something.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> You’ve set yourself up to be sig’d, my man.



hey at least I'd be famous lol


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Edika said:


> Oh man you're opening yourself up for a lot of teasing .
> 
> Anyway, yeah I can't believe he's considering that knot as a positive aspect on a build. This is Devries level justification of a glaring defect. I hope he at least stabilizes it with some eboxy or something.



I think it would better be suited for firewood


----------



## bostjan

TheFashel12 said:


> Look at that terrible knot at 30:35



"Look at that body...DANG!"
Yeah, it looks like shit.
G.R. Petty, I hope you see that video...


----------



## Albake21

bostjan said:


> "Look at that body...DANG!"
> Yeah, it looks like shit.
> G.R. Petty, I hope you see that video...


Well at least he did say it was getting painted over. I'm sorry but what crazy person buys such a top to have it painted over? I highly doubt a top like that will effect tone like the customer stated. Paying $500 to get it covered by a cream paint


----------



## spudmunkey

I *suspect* that only the back is getting painted cream with the clear top. I've seen that at least once before on a...I think it was one of their JB basses. That one was, if I remember right, vintage cream with black limba and it actually looked pretty nice. i can't seem to find a pic, though.


----------



## bostjan

Shame the customer has asked for that hideous knot to be painted over. 

Seriously, though, that is a horrendous-looking piece of wood. I would be livid if I received that bad of a knot in a guitar above a $100 price point.


----------



## Albake21

Jeff said in the video that the burl was getting painted over because the customer only wanted it for the tone.


----------



## groverj3

spudmunkey said:


> I *suspect* that only the back is getting painted cream with the clear top. I've seen that at least once before on a...I think it was one of their JB basses. That one was, if I remember right, vintage cream with black limba and it actually looked pretty nice. i can't seem to find a pic, though.


I suspect that piece of wood was a reject that they figured was ok as long as nobody actually saw it, hence using it for a painted build. Rather shady.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

"poplar top for the tone"


----------



## Albake21

KnightBrolaire said:


> "poplar top for the tone"


That's my point. You would have to be out of your mind to buy it for that reason.


----------



## groverj3

KnightBrolaire said:


> "poplar top for the tone"




I always laugh when someone buys a guitar with a top-wood "for the tone" only to cover it up with a solid finish anyway.

Uh oh. Are we starting a tonewood debate?


----------



## wannabguitarist

I don't see the issue with using that body with a knot if it's getting painted over. I actually thought the back looked really cool


----------



## Albake21

wannabguitarist said:


> I don't see the issue with using that body with a knot if it's getting painted over. I actually thought the back looked really cool


Agreed, I don't have a problem with it either.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

I don't see any problem with painting over the knot. Lots of builders use less figured wood when they paint them. It doesn't make any sense to use a really figured piece and then cover it with opaque paint (which kiesel has definitely done before).
I can't stand poplar burl tops anymore. It's like getting the wood equivalent of wet cardboard glued on top of your guitar, not to mention a lot of them look like garbage. I think poplar burl and birdseye maple are way too expensive for the kind of figuring that I usually see from those woods. Maple, Mappa, redwood and Walnut burls on the other hand, have a lot more variety and look pretty awesome imo.


----------



## Albake21

KnightBrolaire said:


> I don't see any problem with painting over the knot. Lots of builders use less figured wood when they paint them. It doesn't make any sense to use a really figured piece and then cover it with opaque paint (which kiesel has definitely done before).
> I can't stand poplar burl tops anymore. It's like getting the wood equivalent of wet cardboard glued on top of your guitar, not to mention a lot of them look like garbage. I think poplar burl and birdseye maple are way too expensive for the kind of figuring that I usually see from those woods. Maple, Mappa, redwood and Walnut burls on the other hand, have a lot more variety and look pretty awesome imo.


It's funny because when I first saw burl, it ended up being my favorite wood. I would drool over the tops. Now that I'm a bit older, I've actually come to dislike them. They are just too much for me. If they have a dark color over it like a deep red it can create a pretty cool effect, but the top alone I really don't like. I much prefer maples tops like you said or even just a nice simple metallic paint job. I did a flamed maple top for my current Kiesel build.


----------



## coupe89

At 44:30 does he bang the two guitars together when putting the black one back and before holding them both?


----------



## Albake21

coupe89 said:


> At 44:30 does he bang the two guitars together when putting the black one back and before holding them both?


I'm sure it happens more than you think. I would bet the guitars are perfectly fine thougy. But yeah obviously he really needs to be more careful.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> I'm sure it happens more than you think. I would bet the guitars are perfectly fine thougy. But yeah obviously he really needs to be more careful.



I dont think he actually cares about the customers.


----------



## bostjan

coupe89 said:


> At 44:30 does he bang the two guitars together when putting the black one back and before holding them both?


Right as he's saying "two really really clean guitars," he knocks the two bodies together. I'm sure they're fine, but the irony level is sky high.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

bostjan said:


> Right as he's saying "two really really clean guitars," he knocks the two bodies together. I'm sure they're fine, but the irony level is sky high.



i've been curious, your jeff kiesel quote in your sig, where did that come from?


----------



## Cynicanal

There was briefly a user here with the username "Jeff Kiesel" who posted that.


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> i've been curious, your jeff kiesel quote in your sig, where did that come from?


Yeah I don't think the real Jeff Kiesel actually said that.


----------



## Vede

Albake21 said:


> Yeah I don't think the real Jeff Kiesel actually said that.



Also, since I've actually owned high-end custom-shop-quality guitars from Suhr, PRS, McNaught, Mayones, Ibanez, Jackson, Charvel, Dean, Washburn, as well as Kiesel, I'm happy to report that the claim - whomever said it - is demonstrably false. Kiesel is right up there, at least in terms of what they're producing in 2018, which is what I've personally experienced. In my view, differences between brands at this level tend to be pretty subjective.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

Let me get this straight: Your _objective_ claim - The day after buying a Kiesel - is that the subjective nature of the matter renders the less-flattering subjective claim “demonstrably false” - subjectively speaking -, because the other brands _are not_ objectively better than the brand that does objectively bad things...that the other brands don’t do.


----------



## feraledge

All this talk stemming from that video, yet no one has pointed out Jeff's shirt design for the ultimate dickhead in your life:


----------



## -JeKo-

Apparently Kiesel has started to ship completed guitars to the wrong customers. There have been at least two "incidents" in the past couple of weeks


----------



## MatiasTolkki

-JeKo- said:


> Apparently Kiesel has started to ship completed guitars to the wrong customers. There have been two "incidents" in the past couple of weeks



REALLY? Got links to what happened?


----------



## -JeKo-

MatiasTolkki said:


> REALLY? Got links to what happened?



Their Facebook group. I was banned from the group myself but I got a friend who's a member.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

-JeKo- said:


> Their Facebook group. I was banned from the group myself but I got a friend who's a member.



Was it the main group where they post pics of the day? I'm only in the Buy/sell/trade group right now.


----------



## -JeKo-

MatiasTolkki said:


> Was it the main group where they post pics of the day? I'm only in the Buy/sell/trade group right now.



Neither.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/15314035284/

(If you decide to join - fanboy alert )


----------



## MatiasTolkki

I couldnt see anything. Maybe I've been banned from there?


----------



## -JeKo-

MatiasTolkki said:


> I couldnt see anything. Maybe I've been banned from there?



Apparently so. Time to sign up and create a new FB account


----------



## MatiasTolkki

-JeKo- said:


> Apparently so. Time to sign up and create a new FB account



I already have one lol I gotta remember which email address i had it set up to though lol


----------



## MaxOfMetal

-JeKo- said:


> Apparently Kiesel has started to ship completed guitars to the wrong customers. There have been at least two "incidents" in the past couple of weeks



That happened a couple of times before, when it was still Carvin. To my knowledge they sent return labels the same day, inspected the guitars, shipped them to the proper owners with next-day and threw in some accessories and merch. This was something like 10 years ago. 

As long as they make it right, this isn't too big of a deal. With the amount of guitars they ship, even if it's half as many as Jeff implies, it's bound to happen at least once or twice. 

Someone probably just slapped the wrong shipping label on the boxes. 

It's not like they shipped the guitars without nuts.


----------



## Albake21

feraledge said:


> All this talk stemming from that video, yet no one has pointed out Jeff's shirt design for the ultimate dickhead in your life:


Am I missing something? What's wrong with this shirt?


----------



## feraledge

Albake21 said:


> Am I missing something? What's wrong with this shirt?


It’s a dick


----------



## feraledge

Albake21 said:


> Am I missing something? What's wrong with this shirt?


It’s a dick


----------



## Vede

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> Let me get this straight: Your _objective_ claim - The day after buying a Kiesel - is that the subjective nature of the matter renders the less-flattering subjective claim “demonstrably false” - subjectively speaking -, because the other brands _are not_ objectively better than the brand that does objectively bad things...that the other brands don’t do.



Hi there! You seem to be annoyed about (and arguing) an entirely different point, possibly made in another thread? What I wrote has nothing to do with customer service; what I said above wasn't meant to invalidate anyone's (I'm assuming) entirely legitimate customer service complaints. What I said was, my two Kiesel guitars from 2018 are easily as well built as any of the guitars listed (and insinuated) in that fake Jeff Kiesel sig. If people don't want to buy one based on the customer service issues reported here and elsewhere, so be it. But in my experience they're very well built guitars. AND (not at all related to the above post) when I had a customer service issue, they (including Jeff) were very friendly and helpful. COME AT ME BRO


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Vede said:


> Hi there! You seem to be annoyed about (and arguing) an entirely different point, possibly made in another thread? What I wrote has nothing to do with customer service; what I said above wasn't meant to invalidate anyone's (I'm assuming) entirely legitimate customer service complaints. What I said was, my two Kiesel guitars from 2018 are easily as well built as any of the guitars listed (and insinuated) in that fake Jeff Kiesel sig. If people don't want to buy one based on the customer service issues reported here and elsewhere, so be it. But in my experience they're very well built guitars. AND (not at all related to the above post) when I had a customer service issue, they (including Jeff) were very friendly and helpful. COME AT ME BRO



My RG550 with Carvin M22 pickups sounds great, if not better than, my actual carvins. Why? Because it proves Mark Kiesel right about how adding coils in between the strings helps prevent loss of sustain. Also, it plays just as good as them, and even has a little flame in the fingerboard and back of neck, FREE upgrades (luck of the draw actually but I call them free upgrades). Also, my new Charvel plays just as good (it's MIJ) as my v220, and actually plays a LOT easier than it because the lack of a horn to impede me from raising the neck.


----------



## Vede

MatiasTolkki said:


> My RG550 with Carvin M22 pickups sounds great, if not better than, my actual carvins. Why? Because it proves Mark Kiesel right about how adding coils in between the strings helps prevent loss of sustain. Also, it plays just as good as them, and even has a little flame in the fingerboard and back of neck, FREE upgrades (luck of the draw actually but I call them free upgrades). Also, my new Charvel plays just as good (it's MIJ) as my v220, and actually plays a LOT easier than it because the lack of a horn to impede me from raising the neck.



Not entirely sure I understand the point you're trying to make. Your new Ibanez with Carvin pickups is better than your old Carvins with Carvin pickups? OK. Seems reasonable. I don't claim to know what old Carvins are like.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Vede said:


> Not entirely sure I understand the point you're trying to make. Your new Ibanez with Carvin pickups is better than your old Carvins with Carvin pickups? OK. Seems reasonable. I don't claim to know what old Carvins are like.



That I disagree with the fact that Kiesels are better than everything out there and my RG550, with the same pups, can stand up to and even sound better than a Kiesel.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Vede said:


> Not entirely sure I understand the point you're trying to make. Your new Ibanez with Carvin pickups is better than your old Carvins with Carvin pickups? OK. Seems reasonable. I don't claim to know what old Carvins are like.



Don't bother, dude. It's not worth going down the rabbit hole with him.


----------



## Vede

MatiasTolkki said:


> That I disagree with the fact that Kiesels are better than everything out there and my RG550, with the same pups, can stand up to and even sound better than a Kiesel.



Well, I disagree with the fact that _you_ said that _I _said that Kiesels are, in fact, better than everything out there. Because I never said that. All I said is that, in my experience, the new ones are right up there alongside many of the best brands/models in terms of build quality. And some people apparently didn't like me saying that.


----------



## Vede

MaxOfMetal said:


> Don't bother, dude. It's not worth going down the rabbit hole with him.



I know, I know...


----------



## spudmunkey

Two new models pre-launched today in the lead-up to Summer NAMM:

Multiscale JB5 jazz bass (33.5-35" scale)
(not on the web yet, but teased on Facebook)


Limtied edition Jason Becker "Numbers" Osiris 6-string guitar, limited to 100 examples.
https://www.kieselguitars.com/catalog/guitars/jbo6x


----------



## wannabguitarist

Who buys these numbers guitars? I can kind of understand the actual Jason Becker replicas, but variations on other body styles? Ugh. Even the original looks like some sort of Fisher Price guitar.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

wannabguitarist said:


> Who buys these numbers guitars? I can kind of understand the actual Jason Becker replicas, but variations on other body styles? Ugh. Even the original looks like some sort of Fisher Price guitar.



Jason always said he wanted a guitar that looked like a toy, that's why the numbers was created.

I also agree that these additions, like the vader and Osiris, shouldnt be made, even in limited numbers.


----------



## Vyn

spudmunkey said:


> Two new models pre-launched today in the lead-up to Summer NAMM:
> 
> Multiscale JB5 jazz bass (33.5-35" scale)
> (not on the web yet, but teased on Facebook)
> 
> 
> Limtied edition Jason Becker "Numbers" Osiris 6-string guitar, limited to 100 examples.
> https://www.kieselguitars.com/catalog/guitars/jbo6x



The Becker Osiris actually makes me mad. Obviously companies need to make money and are out to make money but that just feels like the grubbiest attempt at cashing in on an artists name.


----------



## spudmunkey

wannabguitarist said:


> Even the original looks like some sort of Fisher Price guitar.



That's the entire idea behind it...to look like a child's toy, like painted wood blocks or a wooden train.

I actually thought about getting one of the Vaders when they were making those, but I wanted to see one with the clear wood finish, but everyone ordered them in the solid colors. This Osiris is also available in the same solid colors, but hopefully because they photographed one in clear ash that, more people will order it that way.

I'm not even a huge Jason Becker fan (honestly, I had no idea who he was until about a year before Carvin launched the JB200C, and I've been playing guitar since about 1988), but the "numbers" guitars still bring a smile to my face.

For what it's worth, "grubbiest attempt at cashing in on an artists name."...isn't that why you sign artists? It's not like Jason's not in on it. His page just shared the link a half hour ago, and he gets a portion of the sales or every Becker model.


----------



## Vyn

spudmunkey said:


> That's the entire idea behind it...to look like a child's toy, like painted wood blocks or a wooden train.
> 
> I actually thought about getting one of the Vaders when they were making those, but I wanted to see one with the clear wood finish, but everyone ordered them in the solid colors. This Osiris is also available in the same solid colors, but hopefully because they photographed one in clear ash that, more people will order it that way.
> 
> I'm not even a huge Jason Becker fan (honestly, I had no idea who he was until about a year before Carvin launched the JB200C, and I've been playing guitar since about 1988), but the "numbers" guitars still bring a smile to my face.
> 
> For what it's worth, "grubbiest attempt at cashing in on an artists name."...isn't that why you sign artists? It's not like Jason's not in on it. His page just shared the link a half hour ago, and he gets a portion of the sales or every Becker model.



I wasn't aware that Becker was in on this one. I thought the tribute guitar was a one off homage and this was just riding off of that.


----------



## spudmunkey

Vyn said:


> I wasn't aware that Becker was in on this one. I thought the tribute guitar was a one off homage and this was just riding off of that.



I'm not sure who comes up with the ideas, but Jason's facebook and Instagram accounts are always on-board with sharing the pages, sharing peoples photos of the guitars with links to the model pages, etc. He gets a portion of every Jason Becker signature model, including the JB100, the Perpetual Burn model, etc.

https://www.facebook.com/jasonbeckerofficial/posts/2203195223028613


----------



## MatiasTolkki

I know Jason supports them and airhead always talks to Jason a lot about these sorts of things, but if he's gonna keep milking the name on shit models like the Osiris and not give us the JB200SC back, then fuck him.


----------



## spudmunkey

So...anyway...

Mutliscale JB5 is pretty cool. I think it's my current favorite bass model from them. I'm curious about it being 1/2" scale shorter than the Vanquish 5-string multiscale.


----------



## wannabguitarist

spudmunkey said:


> That's the entire idea behind it...to look like a child's toy, like painted wood blocks or a wooden train.



I did not know this. Still think it looks bad, but I like it a little more knowing that 



spudmunkey said:


> For what it's worth, "grubbiest attempt at cashing in on an artists name."...isn't that why you sign artists? It's not like Jason's not in on it. His page just shared the link a half hour ago, and he gets a portion of the sales or every Becker model.


----------



## spudmunkey

Out of the limited run of 100, and they will be individually numbered, number one is for Jason, and he may have it already actually, if i understood that post correctly... And number two will stay at the factory. Number 3 through 100 is the range that sounds like they will be sent to paying customers.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Anyway, I'm going to bring this up in case anyone who wants to buy from Kiesel and wants to buy an X220/V220:

If you have a big belly, they will be VERY hard to play as they dont have a belly cut. Thanks to my dieting and exercising the past 2+ months, my stomach has gotten considerably smaller and it has made my V220 easier to play (still need to lose another 17 kgs but losing the 10 I already have has helped a LOT).


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> If you have a big belly, they will be VERY hard to play as they dont have a belly cut.



Actually, they have done one as a custom request for someone (two actually, because they put the jack on the wrong side of the body on the first one).


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> Actually, they have done one as a custom request for someone (two actually, because they put the jack on the wrong side of the body on the first one).



Non-returnable op50 that cost a LOT extra because they had to get airhead to personally do it. I even asked Chris if they'd ever make it a standard option and he said nope, because aforementioned airhead wants them to stay like they were in the 80s.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

The name is Jizz Kleenex. Show some respect.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> The name is Jizz Kleenex. Show some respect.



LOL that's a good one.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

I'm debating a 2nd jb200, maybe a 100.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

Would you please just type that you want to buy and fly the flag of _more_ Kiesel-branded products; so I can sig it?


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> Would you please just type that you want to buy and fly the flag of _more_ Kiesel-branded products; so I can sig it?



Nah i like the sig you use already


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

@MatiasTolkki Seriously though, your Kiesel NGDs would be the best promotion that brand has ever had in this site. Shame your gaijin lifestyle forces you to miss out on the used Kiesel prices in the contiguous US.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> @MatiasTolkki Seriously though, your Kiesel NGDs would be the best promotion that brand has ever had in this site. Shame your gaijin lifestyle forces you to miss out on the used Kiesel prices in the contiguous US.



you think? because of my constant bashing of Jizz Kleenex?


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

I don’t care what you bash one out into - jizz kleenex, potato chip bag, artificial plant pot, half an eggshell, motorcycle ashtray, etc. - It’s just a review perspective sorely lacking in this community.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> I don’t care what you bash one out into - jizz kleenex, potato chip bag, artificial plant pot, half an eggshell, motorcycle ashtray, etc. - It’s just a review perspective sorely lacking in this community.



That is quite true. I could be VERY honest about the situation too, since I'm a bit weary about another Kiesel, but I love the JB200 (I dont know if a JB100 has even sold in Japan so I'm kinda thinking about that for that reason.)


----------



## MatiasTolkki

@Andrew Lloyd Webber If you want me to, I could give two totally objective reviews on the ones I have, and a comparison between the Carvin days and Kiesel around 2 years ago.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

@MatiasTolkki At the very least, _I’d_ appreciate where you’re coming from. The only reason I don’t comb Reverb for used Kiesels is because Mr. 3rd Generation-Curse doesn’t yet offer specs beyond what I already have in my collection (ie. a headless Fatboy with conical fretboard). Hence, no Kiesel NGDs from me.


----------



## spudmunkey

New Johnny Hiland signature model officially announced. It's basically a Solo with an options bundle, and also comes with his signature pickups and some Dunlop pots.

From what i can tell it's about $80 more than a similarly-spec'd Solo (ash body, finishes which I believe cost $200, birdseye fretboard and headstock, 10" fretboard radius, black diamond inlays, silver drop-shadow logo, ivory colored nut, and his control layout signature Electric City Six Shooter pickups and Dunlop pots), and with his signature engraved on the truss rod cover (if it's worth anything to you, would depend on why you'd get his signature model in the first place).

Interestingly, it still has the 10-day trial, but it has their raw tone finish, which isn't the case with any other model.


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> New Johnny Hiland signature model officially announced. It's basically a Solo with an options bundle, and also comes with his signature pickups and some Dunlop pots.
> 
> From what i can tell it's about $80 more than a similarly-spec'd Solo (ash body, finishes which I believe cost $200, buirdseye fretboard and headstock, 10" fretboard radius, black diamond inlays, silver drop-shadow logo, ivory colored nut, and his control layout pickups and pots), and with his signature on the truss rod cover (if it's worth anything to you, would depend on why you'd get his signature model in the first place).


Where was that posted? I don't see anything on their Facebook at least.


----------



## spudmunkey

Albake21 said:


> Where was that posted? I don't see anything on their Facebook at least.



Email blast, and it's live on the web.


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> Email blast, and it's live on the web.


Huh that's strange, I never got an email for it. Also I don't see it on their site.

EDIT: Nevermind I see it now


----------



## spudmunkey

Albake21 said:


> Huh that's strange, I never got an email for it. Also I don't see it on their site.



If you go to the "guitars" tab and look at the list of guitar models on the left, Johnny Hiland is listed there. Clicking that link should scroll you down to that part of the page. Or if you go down to the Solo model, the JH6 is right above it. Ctrl+F "Hiland" is your friend.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

I'm in a rut now. Seriously debating that JB100 or 200. I dunno which I should go with.


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> I'm in a rut now. Seriously debating that JB100 or 200. I dunno which I should go with.


I personally like the JB100 more only because it's a bit more customizable.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> I personally like the JB100 more only because it's a bit more customizable.



And the forearm cut is appealing, but having a backup 200 would be nice too. If I did a 200 though, I'd have to do a non-returnable op50 for the color because i dont want a carbon copy of bluey. 

Also what's nice about the 200 is that I can get a 5 way blade selector with a single tone and volume, which would be pretty nice actually.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

I'm actually thinking of doing a 200 in nightburst. That would be pretty bitchin actually.


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> And the forearm cut is appealing, but having a backup 200 would be nice too. If I did a 200 though, I'd have to do a non-returnable op50 for the color because i dont want a carbon copy of bluey.
> 
> Also what's nice about the 200 is that I can get a 5 way blade selector with a single tone and volume, which would be pretty nice actually.


Since you already have a 200, wouldn't it be nice to try the 100? Plus you can always change things like pickup selectors on your own later on.


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> I'm in a rut now. Seriously debating that JB100 or 200. I dunno which I should go with.



When you think of another guitar, what's the very first finish that pops into your head? That's going to be the primary driver, because I don't think the JB100 is able to be "spec'd-up" with figured woods, etc. From what I understand, it's also more "sleek" design (more pronounced forearm contour, I *believe*) and direct mount pickups, so it would/could be a different beast than the JB200C


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> Since you already have a 200, wouldn't it be nice to try the 100? Plus you can always change things like pickup selectors on your own later on.



that's what i was thinking, as it would be MUCH cheaper, but I'm not sure what color I'd get. Also, I doubt many JB100s have made it over to Japan either (if any). I dont want anything TOO flashy, as I have my rg550 and V220 for the insane 80s craziness, but I can't think of a color that would suit me.


----------



## spudmunkey

Facebook live video of Johnny Hiland talking about his new model at NAMM:


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> When you think of another guitar, what's the very first finish that pops into your head? That's going to be the primary driver, because I don't think the JB100 is able to be "spec'd-up" with figured woods, etc. From what I understand, it's also more "sleek" design (more pronounced forearm contour, I *believe*) and direct mount pickups, so it would/could be a different beast than the JB200C



Yeah it's direct mount vs bezels, and the forearm contour is MUCH deeper than the 200.


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> I can't think of a color that would suit me.



Can't go wrong with:
White/White
Diamond Pearl White
Primer Grey
Gunmetal Metallic
Black Magic Metallic

There's also that new tropic color which seems pretty cool. Sort of 80s yet sort of modern.

Also, there's a few in the gallery, but maybe one of these might be the spark of inspiration for something else.
https://www.kieselguitars.com/guitargallery/jb100


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> Can't go wrong with:
> White/White
> Diamond Pearl White
> Primer Grey
> Gunmetal Metallic
> Black Magic Metallic
> 
> There's also that new tropic color which seems pretty cool. Sort of 80s yet sort of modern.



See I am not big on white guitars, and my friend has a dc600 in DPW.

I was thinking blood red with red dot inlays, but then i have my RG5000 RR that already has that. 

Could go color shirt but that's a bit pricey :/

Which is why I think JB200 in nightburst would be bitchin.


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> See I am not big on white guitars, and my friend has a dc600 in DPW.
> 
> I was thinking blood red with red dot inlays, but then i have my RG5000 RR that already has that.
> 
> Could go color shirt but that's a bit pricey :/
> 
> Which is why I think JB200 in nightburst would be bitchin.


The red would be pretty badass! Also could go with a classic black magic maybe with gold hardware? Or go black magic and black out everything else. That would be pretty sleek.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> The red would be pretty badass! Also could go with a classic black magic maybe with gold hardware? Or go black magic and black out everything else. That would be pretty sleek.



Yeah I've always liked Blood red, and red inlays would rule, I just wish I could get Red diamond inlays and not dots, since I already have red dots on my 5000. 

black well, I have my charvel in black. That's why this is so hard to decide 

What other possibilities are there? I mean I have KRO already so I dont wanna do that (even though it's an awesome color), and I'm not big on greens.


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> Yeah I've always liked Blood red, and red inlays would rule, I just wish I could get Red diamond inlays and not dots, since I already have red dots on my 5000.
> 
> black well, I have my charvel in black. That's why this is so hard to decide
> 
> What other possibilities are there? I mean I have KRO already so I dont wanna do that (even though it's an awesome color), and I'm not big on greens.


The only other color I would suggest is a blue or even teal would be cool. Just because you have other guitars in those colors, doesn't mean you can't get a totally different guitar in that color.


----------



## spudmunkey

I say either Tropic, or their newish light Blue. In some photos it almost looks white, but when there's white in the photo that the camera can balance to, it's a lovely color.








Here's Primer Gray (in satin, but I'd get gloss).






There's also absolutely nothing wrong with a nice clear alder finish.


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> I say either Tropic, or their newish light Blue. In some photos it almost looks white, but when there's white in the photo that the camera can balance to, it's a lovely color.


Ohhh tropic would look sick! That's one of my favorite colors. I originally wanted to order that, but they don't have a translucent version of it. I went with Aurora blue instead.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

got a pic of tropic?


----------



## spudmunkey

Jason also just shared the link to the JB100 gallery, so clearly he approves. 
https://www.facebook.com/jason.becker.1253/posts/10155580685308568


My monitor is crappy and this looks kinda dull, but it looks super bright when people post their IRL photos


----------



## KnightBrolaire

tropic is hot, i really want a crescent or solo in that color, but I'm trying to refrain from buying any more guitars for a while


----------



## MatiasTolkki

That's an interesting color, but a little too pastel for me lol


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> When you think of another guitar, what's the very first finish that pops into your head? That's going to be the primary driver, because I don't think the JB100 is able to be "spec'd-up" with figured woods, etc. From what I understand, it's also more "sleek" design (more pronounced forearm contour, I *believe*) and direct mount pickups, so it would/could be a different beast than the JB200C



First finish that popped in my head was a clone of my purple JB200. Purple flame just has something amazing about it.


----------



## spudmunkey

Grape jelly metallic?


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

MatiasTolkki said:


> First finish that pooped in my head was a clone of my purple JB200. Purple flame just has something amazing about it.



I’m amazed any time I’m confronted with purple flames.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> Grape jelly metallic?



I'll need to look at more pics of it, but that could be a nice color for the 100. too bad no purple inlays.


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> I'll need to look at more pics of it, but that could be a nice color for the 100. too bad no purple inlays.



Here's someone over on the forum who took a bunch of photos of his Grape Jelly DC multiscale.
http://www.kieselguitarsbbs.com/viewtopic.php?t=48124


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> Here's someone over on the forum who took a bunch of photos of his Grape Jelly DC multiscale.
> http://www.kieselguitarsbbs.com/viewtopic.php?t=48124



that's really nice actually. 

i just did a price check and the jb100 would only be like 30 bucks less than a dc600 (beveless), with exact same specs. it'd be cheaper to get a 200 with all those bells and whistles (just a non-blue color).


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Been going through build ideas since i got home from work. My only gripe with Grape Jelly is that there aren't matching inlays to go with it :/


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> Been going through build ideas since i got home from work. My only gripe with Grape Jelly is that there aren't matching inlays to go with it :/


  https://www.inlaysticker.com/

I kid, I kid (although I've got some in my nylon-string, and they have held up for years, even on the wound strings). Abalone and purple look awesome together, FWIW. But purple _would _look killer.


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> Been going through build ideas since i got home from work. My only gripe with Grape Jelly is that there aren't matching inlays to go with it :/


Honestly black inlays would look awesome with the purple. It would have a very purple RG550 vibe to it.


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> https://www.inlaysticker.com/
> 
> I kid, I kid (although I've got some in my nylon-string, and they have held up for years, even on the wound strings). Abalone and purple look awesome together, FWIW. But purple _would _look killer.


I actually bought these a few weeks expecting them to look like shit, but I was pleasantly surprised that they actually looked alright. Though only the dots are worth it, all of the other ones are super tacky looking.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> Honestly black inlays would look awesome with the purple. It would have a very purple RG550 vibe to it.



i thought about that, do black diamonds like on my v220, but i thought it might be too plain. however, black dots with inlay stickers might work. I'm looking at more of an RG5000PN kinda thing.


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> i thought about that, do black diamonds like on my v220, but i thought it might be too plain. however, black dots with inlay stickers might work. I'm looking at more of an RG5000PN kinda thing.


I say go with the black dot inlays and if you really want do inlay stickers you can, although I don't know if you can get purple ones. If not, the black diamonds would look really cool.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> I say go with the black dot inlays and if you really want do inlay stickers you can, although I don't know if you can get purple ones. If not, the black diamonds would look really cool.



i really like diamonds after getting them on the v220. maybe i should go that route, GJM with black diamonds. now the issue is, dc600 or jb100


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> i really like diamonds after getting them on the v220. maybe i should go that route, GJM with black diamonds. now the issue is, dc600 or jb100


Personally I much prefer the DC600, but that's also because it's more metal looking while the JB's are more classic rock looking. Plus Kiesel's neck throughs are so damn comfy.


----------



## spudmunkey

It's maybe worth mentioning that the DC line was re-vamped recently. The shape was streamlined a bit, and the bass-side horn was pushed a bit out for better balance, but it now does connect at the neck a couple frets down. The horn isn't longer, just pushed out.

I didn't do one for the DC600, but here's a DC700 old vs new (ignore the bevels and control location on the pink one, and just pay attention to the outline). The butt behind the bridge was made flatter (more like the ST300/JB200), too.


----------



## spudmunkey

Albake21 said:


> Personally I much prefer the DC600, but that's also because it's more metal looking while the JB's are more classic rock looking. Plus Kiesel's neck throughs are so damn comfy.



They are both neck-throughs, though.


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> They are both neck-throughs, though.


My god they are..... I remember seeing the newest JBPB was bolt on so I totally thought they all were. Still my vote goes for the DC, but that's also more my taste. Also way happier with the newer DC body. It's just a lot more modern and a much needed update, in my opinion.


----------



## spudmunkey

Albake21 said:


> My god they are..... I remember seeing the newest JBPB was bolt on so I totally thought they all were.



The JB200C, JB200SC (retired), JB100 are all neck-through (they are all loosely-related to Jason's then-produced DC200 with the ST body option), as was the JB "Numbers" limited edition Vader. The JB24, JBPB and the new limited edition "Numbers" Osiris are all bolt-on.

One thing to note: On the old DC600, if you didn't get a top, the forearm contour was much more deeply cut (I *believe* the JB100 has a similar deeper forearm contour), but I haven't been able to confirm if that's the case anymore with the re-designed model. I asked once in the live FB Q&A, but either they didn't get to my question, or he didn't know off the top of his head.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

I have only tried my friend's DC600, which has the bevels, and it was comfy as hell. My first thought was an Ibanez RG had a baby with an Ibanez S, since the width of the body was about right in between the aforementioned Ibanezes. That kinda got me thinking about a build of my own with it.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

There's always a possibility I get the money together to snag that kinda beat up DC200 that I tried in Tokyo awhile ago as well though...


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Well I decided. JB200 with a total OP50 finish. That part will remain a secret though until after it arrives.


----------



## diagrammatiks

second only to the crowd source your 4k custom guitar..

is the spend all day slagging a brand only to buy one of their guitars


----------



## Seabeast2000

MatiasTolkki said:


> Well I decided. JB200 with a total OP50 finish. That part will remain a secret though until after it arrives.


Only one option 50? I'd go all in and make it %1000 yours.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

diagrammatiks said:


> second only to the crowd source your 4k custom guitar..
> 
> is the spend all day slagging a brand only to buy one of their guitars



It's a long con.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

diagrammatiks said:


> second only to the crowd source your 4k custom guitar..
> 
> is the spend all day slagging a brand only to buy one of their guitars



if you remember correctly, I went after jeff, not the brand, and have always talked about chris, mike and keith in high regards.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

diagrammatiks said:


> second only to the crowd source your 4k custom guitar..
> 
> is the spend all day slagging a brand only to buy one of their guitars



if you remember correctly, I went after jeff, not the brand, and have always talj


----------



## MatiasTolkki

The906 said:


> Only one option 50? I'd go all in and make it %1000 yours.



Well the finish I have in mind is something even Chris hasn't seen in over 15 years, so it'll definitely be "mine"


----------



## cip 123

If you want a JB just have someone else build it and donate to Jason. It'll work out the same as a Kiesel with all the shipping and tax


----------



## MatiasTolkki

cip 123 said:


> If you want a JB just have someone else build it and donate to Jason. It'll work out the same as a Kiesel with all the shipping and tax



Actually, not in Japan. Every custom shop over here is outrageously overpriced. ESP to start is 750,000 yen, which I could buy THREE JB200s for that and still have money left over for a possible jb100 as well.

There are other smaller places, but they are just as expensive and I dont think they could replicate a JB200. I wouldn't trust em to without having to loan them mine, and it's my #1 guitar right now, so NOPE. 

And I hate the idea of giving money to Jizz Kleenex, but Chris and Mike have always done me a solid so by ordering through Chris, he makes his commission, meaning I help him out DIRECTLY, and I also help out Jason as well.

BTW, I will be ordering a couple Jason becker t-shirts soon as well, since I want to directly help him out, and that's something i can do like within the next couple days.


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> Well I decided. JB200 with a total OP50 finish. That part will remain a secret though until after it arrives.


Biggest plot twist of 2018...


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> Biggest plot twist of 2018...



how so? lol


----------



## cip 123

MatiasTolkki said:


> Actually, not in Japan. Every custom shop over here is outrageously overpriced. ESP to start is 750,000 yen, which I could buy THREE JB200s for that and still have money left over for a possible jb100 as well.
> 
> There are other smaller places, but they are just as expensive and I dont think they could replicate a JB200. I wouldn't trust em to without having to loan them mine, and it's my #1 guitar right now, so NOPE.
> 
> And I hate the idea of giving money to Jizz Kleenex, but Chris and Mike have always done me a solid so by ordering through Chris, he makes his commission, meaning I help him out DIRECTLY, and I also help out Jason as well.
> 
> BTW, I will be ordering a couple Jason becker t-shirts soon as well, since I want to directly help him out, and that's something i can do like within the next couple days.



Fair enough, I'll probably never actually buy a Kiesel, far too much risk involved with an overseas Kiesel build for me.

When you do get it, can you make a point and check if they've set the Floyd radius up to match the fretboard?

Floyds are 10" and they're spec'd too 14" on the fretboards, I'm unsure if they do.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

cip 123 said:


> Fair enough, I'll probably never actually buy a Kiesel, far too much risk involved with an overseas Kiesel build for me.
> 
> When you do get it, can you make a point and check if they've set the Floyd radius up to match the fretboard?
> 
> Floyds are 10" and they're spec'd too 14" on the fretboards, I'm unsure if they do.



Yeah, they do set the floyds to match the radius. I have a jb200 and v220 (v220 is post-name change) and they both are perfectly fine


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> how so? lol


Because the amount of hate you have towards Jeff and his option 50s. Personally I enjoy Kiesel and I'm okay with _some _option 50s.


----------



## DudeManBrother

I’m looking forward to seeing what you came up with @MatiasTolkki 


Albake21 said:


> Because the amount of hate you have towards Jeff and his option 50s. Personally I enjoy Kiesel and I'm okay with _some _option 50s.


Everyone needs to vent their frustrations once in a while. If he’s moving on, then so can these threads  
If I lived in Japan I’d probably go for any opt50 I really wanted just because of the hassle involved with returning whether I had a 10 day or not


----------



## MatiasTolkki

DudeManBrother said:


> I’m looking forward to seeing what you came up with @MatiasTolkki
> 
> Everyone needs to vent their frustrations once in a while. If he’s moving on, then so can these threads
> If I lived in Japan I’d probably go for any opt50 I really wanted just because of the hassle involved with returning whether I had a 10 day or not



It's not so much a hassle as it is the cost of shipping it back. If you get any of the Vs, that hardcase is pretty big so it'll cost around 17,000 yen to ship it back. If you get something like an aries, it's around 4000 yen cheaper (size of the box can really screw you up financially).

Besides, I LOVE my jb200 and while im still pissed about Jizz Kleenex discontinuing the M series pups and sad I cant get it with an active preamp, I only use the active preamp when necessary (which is almost never tbh, unless I need a little more treble in my M22V for soloing), there is no denying that my jb200 is the best quality guitar I own. Not that my Ibanezes aren't high quality or cant stand up to the jb200, it's that there's something special about that guitar to me that makes me go back to it. Now that i'm losing a lot of weight, it's also making my v220 FAR more playable than before and it has made me want to keep it. Also, I've always wanted a standard tuning JB200, since I play mostly in Eb, and having that second one would give me choices.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> Because the amount of hate you have towards Jeff and his option 50s. Personally I enjoy Kiesel and I'm okay with _some _option 50s.



A lot of his op50s are ugly as sin (the stuff he comes up with, barf) and the new models are absolutely ugly as hell, but at least we still have stuff like the JB200 and DC600. I know he'll never discontinue the JB200, but the DC600 could disappear one day, and that would SUCK.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Oh @DudeManBrother I forgot to mention that import taxes are almost nill over here. When my V220 arrived (my jb200 was ordered during the carvin days and they had a shitty dealer over here so i dont know the details of that one), I only had to pay applicable consumption tax (8%) on it, only came out to 6000 yen. The full price isnt what is declared, it's the base price of the model, so with an OFR it was something like 8% of 1150.00 (converted to yen back then was something like 120,000 yen) so it actually isnt that bad to import a Kiesel over here, compared to places like Australia or numerous places in Europe with their VAT bullshit.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Took some outdoor pics of my V220, since i hadn't so far. This color is hard as hell to get the color, even in the sunlight. If the angle is off just a tad, it gets reddish.


----------



## prlgmnr

I can't wait to see if it's "Kiesel, never again? Never again" or "Kiesel, never again, again".


----------



## MatiasTolkki

prlgmnr said:


> I can't wait to see if it's "Kiesel, never again? Never again" or "Kiesel, never again, again".



Well my hope is that it has only about as bad as what my first jb200 had (extra paint in the trem cavity that prevented it from returning to zero point) than what my v220 had (painted chipped in the back of the trem cavity, the primer showing on the neck where the painter didn't tape it off right). I mean shaving off a little paint in the trem cavity isn't a big deal and it doesn't affect the exterior looks at all, but where the neck joint has some primer showing? Now that says a lot about their paint guys.


----------



## Vyn

Albake21 said:


> Biggest plot twist of 2018...



Top 10 Anime Betrayals


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Vyn said:


> Top 10 Anime Betrayals


----------



## MatiasTolkki

I'm only wanting to do this because of Jason. Also, I have always said that I LOVE my jb200 and it will go to the grave with me. Figured I'd get one without the active preamp and see what happens.


----------



## feraledge

Might as well merge the two Kiesel threads and just call it the saga of @MatiasTolkki and the displaced rage fit. He stole the show and now he’s nonsensically done it again. Maybe spend that money on some therapy.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

Bought my first Kiesel product since 2015, due to waiting for a used one, specifically. Will likely waste everyone’s time with a thread next week.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> Bought my first Kiesel product since 2015, due to waiting for a used one, specifically. Will likely waste everyone’s time with a thread next week.



What did you get?


----------



## spudmunkey

X220, Xccelerator bass and 7-string Floyd Rose trem option have been retired.


----------



## CapinCripes

spudmunkey said:


> 7-string Floyd Rose trem option have been retired.


Thats... different. Really pushing that kiesel/hipshot thing eh. Its definitely not my bag.


spudmunkey said:


> X220


Jeff, from the bottom of my heart thank you for removing one of the few temptations your brand still offers, my checkbook thanks you as well.


----------



## spudmunkey

CapinCripes said:


> Thats... different. Really pushing that kiesel/hipshot thing eh. Its definitely not my bag.



From Mike Jones:_ "We did discontinue 7 string Floyds. The Hipshot/Kiesel trem has completely eclipsed it and all of our artists prefer it to the 7 string Floyd."_

The 7-string Floyd they used was the Original 1000 series because of the string spacing. I see the Original 1000 is no longer listed on the FR website, so i wonder if that had something to do with it.



CapinCripes said:


> Jeff, from the bottom of my heart thank you for removing one of the few temptations your brand still offers, my checkbook thanks you as well.



From Chris Hong: _"When we brought back the X220 we did it because we had so many people tell us that they would order the X220 if it was available again. After years after years of begging and pleading we finally broke down and brought it back. Then no one really bought it. Even though no one really bought them we kept it around for a few years because it was a cool model. How many X220s did you see in pics of the day or walkthroughs? 

Sucks but if no one is buying then... : /

Lots of models/options = lots of things to remember. Each model has their nuances that need to be remembered. Also programming clutter.

This next part isn't the company's belief so I'm just speaking for myself but what's the point of keeping something if literally no one is ordering it? This is one of those models where most people will think "well it's really cool and I like the idea of one but I won't ever buy it because there are more practical models for every day and professional play" as well as what I think may be some are self consciousness on how people will look at them for having a super pointy guitar. I like the model and was an advocate for bringing one back for years, even before I worked for the company. Even I didn't buy one even though I was one of the people that said I would years ago."_

And of course every time they DID post a photo of one from the pics on Facebook, someone would alwaysshare a photo of David Koresh playing his.


----------



## CapinCripes

spudmunkey said:


> From Chris Hong: _"When we brought back the X220 we did it because we had so many people tell us that they would order the X220 if it was available again. After years after years of begging and pleading we finally broke down and brought it back. Then no one really bought it. Even though no one really bought them we kept it around for a few years because it was a cool model. How many X220s did you see in pics of the day or walkthroughs?
> 
> Sucks but if no one is buying then... : /
> 
> Lots of models/options = lots of things to remember. Each model has their nuances that need to be remembered. Also programming clutter.
> 
> This next part isn't the company's belief so I'm just speaking for myself but what's the point of keeping something if literally no one is ordering it? This is one of those models where most people will think "well it's really cool and I like the idea of one but I won't ever buy it because there are more practical models for every day and professional play" as well as what I think may be some are self consciousness on how people will look at them for having a super pointy guitar. I like the model and was an advocate for bringing one back for years, even before I worked for the company. Even I didn't buy one even though I was one of the people that said I would years ago."_


Which I would understand if there was a cost other than hard drive space associated with keeping the already made programming. But its not like they exactly have to pay a licence fee to not delete their own materials. I would fully support a soft discontinuation whereby you could pay a discontinued model fee (hell even up to an extra $250 over a comparable model) so that they take the time to load a different (already programmed) program into the cnc and on top of that would be perfectly fine with getting rid of the ability to return the guitar. And i mean its not like jeff doesn't do a million one off finishes. that must get extremely confusing really fast and you don't see anyone complaining about clutter there. Basically make it a secret menu item that people who want it can have if they pay more for the inconvenience. after all hard drive space is not exactly as much of a commodity as it used to be.


----------



## SnowfaLL

from my experience, "discontinued" models are still order able up to 7+ months after they were discontinued most times. Speaking as someone who just received one of the "discontinued" models last week, 7 months after it was discontinued.. Now I doubt that happens for hardware, but if you really want the X220, call them now and I bet its possible.


----------



## spudmunkey

i imagine it's not just the cnc program (which can be annoying enough to deal with...The way i understand it, they have to have a unique whole-guitar-body program for every combination of pickup layout, bridge type, control layout, output jack location and handedness. Just looking at the V220 gallery, I can see 48 individual programs* just with the different options I see there (HH vs HSH, L vs R handed, 3 different bridges, two different control layouts, 2 different jack locations)), but also keeping it's pricelist updated with all of the changes to standard specs, base model prices would have to continue to go up just due to inflation, and option pricing that change, that starts getting into being a pain in the ass, and not worth the effort for one example being sold every 2 years.

Lots of models also have specific requirements of top-wood and body blank size, special cases (I'm sure the X220 fits in the same V220 case, but let's say they also retire the V220...then they have no way to ship them).

*96 programs if you count the neck pickup delete, but I believe they said they do that manually...192 different programs if you count the one HSS model I know I've seen.


----------



## Cynicanal

David Koresh had an X220? I always thought it was the ugliest of the Carvin/Kiesel pointies, but that almost makes me wish I had one.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

I'm in a similar boat, discontinuing the 7 strimg Floyd is a stupid move. But removes more of a temptation to buy another guitar from them.


----------



## spudmunkey

Cynicanal said:


> David Koresh had an X220? I always thought it was the ugliest of the Carvin/Kiesel pointies, but that almost makes me wish I had one.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

So that was Jeff’s inspiration - I know he didn’t get it from Mark.



MatiasTolkki said:


> What did you get?



Something few people will care about, but that has been sorely lacking in google-provided info since its release.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> X220, Xccelerator bass and 7-string Floyd Rose trem option have been retired.



Yep, Jizz Kleenex being a retard, and I second @CapinCripes comments. 

What I find REALLY upsetting is that whenever there WAS an X220 or V220 that got ordered, Jeff made next to ZERO attempts to promote them in ANY way because he has some fetish with headless guitars (which to me are like dicks without the tip, just doesn't work). I remember when I had my v220 on order and Jeff was doing his walkthrough of the factory, He literally saw my V220 and ignored it for "rad wood." When he claims that he loves the V shape guitars, I NEVER believe him because he never does a goddamn thing to promote them (even though supposedly he's the one who named the Ultra V way back when).


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> I'm in a similar boat, discontinuing the 7 strimg Floyd is a stupid move. But removes more of a temptation to buy another guitar from them.



Guess if you want a 7 string with a good recessed trem, time to find an MIJ Ibanez RG7620 from the late 90s.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

MatiasTolkki said:


> Jeff made next to ZERO attempts to promote them in ANY way because he has some fetish with headless guitars



In fairness to him, those headless guitars are _Jeff’s _designs and legacy; and he’s going to prioritize showcasing his own work over his father’s at every opportunity. Jeff pushes his brainstorms into production because he’s desperate to be regarded as an innovator, worthy of the Kiesel name and out from under daddy’s shadow - They are not released to meet any kind of demand; because there is none. Therefore, Jeff has to devote all NAMM coverage and Facebook Live streams to hyping his latest misshapen, headless play-doh turd as the must-own, even when its specs are in direct competition with the previous year’s design still in production.

And it works. You see the same four or five guys here, on a site where Kiesel was banned for documented evil bullshit, post “Reeaally GASing for a Priapus now” every February - Even though we never see an NGD from them.

But each winter NAMM, the new pseudo-ergonomic, Hipshot-equipped, state-of-the-art bolt-on, headless TONEWOOD guitar is out there in 6, 7, and 8-string configurations of burl tops for the sake of making waves and keeping *Kiesel* mentioned by NAMM coverage outlets in the same articles as the $2,021.99 2021 Fender Just-a-Stratocaster, or the 2024 Limited Edition Antique Pumpkin Another-Les-Paul, available through Sweetwater and Musiciansfriend for $4,995 each, and hand-numbered by someone working too hard for minimum wage.

No way is Jeff going to stray from that and acknowledge his dad’s V, ML or Destroyer copies, when he can instead pass over them to pick up and flash a Pepto Bismol-burst 7-string Holdsworth model that he knows is never going to be released, and say “It’s what Allan would have wanted” with a smile that looks like an owl shitting a raccoon.

This isn’t a post for the “never again” thread, either - I’m saying it makes more business sense, and for the same reason you won’t see one of Jeff’s redundant guitar designs discontinued until a signature artist jumps ship for one of FMIC Charvel or Warwick’s grabs.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

@Andrew Lloyd Webber 

Oh I get that, but if you watched any of his livestreams (i havent watched one in over a year), he used to go on and on about the Vs and how much he "loved them," only to do zero to promote them. If you love a model, you would promote it. While his self-centered crap is one thing, blatantly lying to people, then discontinuing the model because it doesn't sell (which goes to @CapinCripes point) just reeks of watery shits.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

He uses his airtime to pimp what’s his - Acknowledgements beyond that should be taken either with a grain of salt or as a hint that “FYI, they’re the next to go - Got to make room for a Vader with a vestigial sound hole, even though the market for the other one just like it hasn’t been proven, yet.”


----------



## Cynicanal

Most normal people would think that talking about the pointies endlessly on his livestreams would be tantamount to advertising them...


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

I’m skeptical of the implication that the viewers I see in his livestream comments can even afford one.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> He uses his airtime to pimp what’s his - Acknowledgements beyond that should be taken either with a grain of salt or as a hint that “FYI, they’re the next to go - Got to make room for a Vader with a vestigial sound hole, even though the market for the other one just like it hasn’t been proven, yet.”



Definitely glad I have a V220 now since he might kill that one too.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> I’m skeptical of the implication that the viewers I see in his livestream comments can even afford one.



Agreed. FB livestreams are where people go to troll or suck off someone they're a fan of. 90% of those people on those streams never buy a Kiesel


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

And 52.7% of them are just three raccoons in a trench coat.


----------



## Lemons

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> And 52.7% of them are just three raccoons in a trench coat.



I can confirm this, although being Australian I am actually 3 possums in a trench coat.


----------



## Albake21

Well shit... If I had known they were going to stop using 7 string floyds, I would have added one to my current build. At least I've heard a lot of good things about the Hipshot trem system.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> Well shit... If I had known they were going to stop using 7 string floyds, I would have added one to my current build. At least I've heard a lot of good things about the Hipshot trem system.



This is what they always do, never give any notice and just put things on the chopping block. At least I have back up pups for when the M22s finally disappear.


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> , He literally saw my V220 and ignored it for "rad wood." .



You take things way to personally. Jeff picked the piece of wood for my Aries, one of his designs... and it was never shown. 

If you look at it the other way, what is likely going to bring in more likes, eyes and sales overall? Where should they spend their marketing efforts? A niche model that hardly nobody ordered, or a wood upgrade available on every model? There's a phrase for things like this: "feed your lions". Again, just like the ST300, Bolt+, SH60... and models he designed like the Xcellerator bass, X227, UltraV7... if they don't prove their worth to hook their place in the lineup, they get cut.


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> This is what they always do, never give any notice and just put things on the chopping block. At least I have back up pups for when the M22s finally disappear.



Do..do you see the hypocrisy of your statement? We've had MONTHS and months of heads up in the pickups and you can still get them. They gave 2+ months on the Xcellerator. They gave weeks on the DC727, TL60/70, JB207, AC40/50...

And EVEN WHEN THEY DON'T, they often still let people order them for a while AFTER they are retired.

I disagree with whatever point your trying to make by using "NEVER" and "ALWAYS", which would be ridiculous to use in almost any argument anyway... but especially when there are so many exceptions that just don't happen to apply to you...oh, except for the pickups for which you've had like, what, 6 months now?


----------



## xzacx

At first I was disappointed to hear the X220 was going away, because that's the model I was probably most likely to get if I ever did order a Kiesel. In reality though, I would never actually buy one over a WR1, Star, Stealth, or even a Xiphos, so I guess I'm not actually disappointed.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Lemons said:


> I can confirm this, although being Australian I am actually 3 possums in a trench coat.


wouldn't it be 3 drop bears instead? hmmmm


----------



## Seabeast2000

KnightBrolaire said:


> wouldn't it be 3 drop bears instead? hmmmm


The are pretty metal. I think he's singing some King Diamond here:


----------



## spudmunkey

For what it's worth, the DC127-12 was retired, and someone on the FB group called 'em up and ordered one. So, yes...it was a bit of an unannounced surprize...but then they still will let people order them if they really want one, as long as they have the parts.

A few other updates:
CT3 variant retired (so the CT model is now only available with the upgraded tops, starting at flamed maple. No more solid mahogany, or plain-wood tops).

CT7 model retired. Not surprising. Very very very few CT7 NGDs, and while Jeff championed it's initial release, sales were never really there even from launch.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> For what it's worth, the DC127-12 was retired, and someone on the FB group called 'em up and ordered one. So, yes...it was a bit of an unannounced surprize...but then they still will let people order them if they really want one, as long as they have the parts.
> 
> A few other updates:
> CT3 variant retired (so the CT model is now only available with the upgraded tops, starting at flamed maple. No more solid mahogany, or plain-wood tops).
> 
> CT7 model retired. Not surprising. Very very very few CT7 NGDs, and while Jeff championed it's initial release, sales were never really there even from launch.



So the CT models are basically now carbon copies of PRS' stuff only, cant do solid colors. That's lame. I dont see why they had to retire that one. I mean I get the CT7/X220, sales weren't there and all, but killing off the only way to get a CT in a solid color is crap.


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> So the CT models are basically now carbon copies of PRS' stuff only, cant do solid colors. That's lame. I dont see why they had to retire that one. I mean I get the CT7/X220, sales weren't there and all, but killing off the only way to get a CT in a solid color is crap.



I do think they should just distill it down to the CT line, and treat it like any other: solid bodies, available with optional tops, some plain and some figured. Then there's only one model to keep track of and keep pricing updated. It's not like they were separate CNC programs. Half the posts on the forum and Facebook regarding the CT line were people who were unclear what the differences were between the 3 and 6, and many thought the 3 was somehow lower quality.

I suspect, though, that their builder isn't set up for certain challenges. For example: you could get a CT3 in solid mahogany, with no top. But if you wanted one with an ash, koa or white limba body, you had to get a top because their stock of those woods wasn't thick enough. I don't think their builder/system allows for that sort of thing. Like...it is set up so that if you pick a flamed maple top that it only shows you the appropriate finishes on the next page, but it can't work backwards and open up more body options if you select a top on the next page.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> I do think they should just distill it down to the CT line, and treat it like any other: solid bodies, available with optional tops, some plain and some figured. Then there's only one model to keep track of and keep pricing updated. It's not like they were separate CNC programs. Half the posts on the forum and Facebook regarding the CT line were people who were unclear what the differences were between the 3 and 6, and many thought the 3 was somehow lower quality.
> 
> I suspect, though, that their builder isn't set up for certain challenges. For example: you could get a CT3 in colis mahogany, with no top. But if you wanted one with an ash body, you had to get a top. I don't think their builder/system allows for that sort of thing. Like...it is set up so that if you pick a flamed maple top that it only shows you the appropriate finishes on the next page, but it can't work backwards and open up more body options if you select a top on the next page.



It could've been easier to put it together with the CT6 and allow for more options, like no top or anything. I like the shape of the ct6, but the fact you cant get solid colors bothers the hell outta me. I might've gotten a ct624 if the option for a solid color was there.


----------



## ramses

spudmunkey said:


> CT7 model retired. Not surprising. Very very very few CT7 NGDs, and while Jeff championed it's initial release, sales were never really there even from launch.


Yup, not surprising. Alas, it seems most 7 string players are looking for a metal aesthetic.

I'm glad I own a beautiful CT7.


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> I might've gotten a ct624 if the option for a solid color was there.



But you didn't. And apprtently, so did too many others. 

I've been whining for a non-figured plain maple top option on the SH6 since before it was even announced. It launched, like the SH550 did before it, with only upgraded tops as the only option...but it's looking like the SH6 isn't selling as well as the SH550 did, so I'm not seeing them opening it up to more woods/finishes any time soon.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

Remember, they’re a _Custom Shop._


----------



## Glades

With all the hate that Kiesel gets on SSO, let me be honest, I do not get it.

I just stopped by my local GC to try out a 7 string Vanquish, and the guitar was phenomenal. First time trying a Kiesel. Fit and finish was great, played and sounded great. On par or better than any Ibanez I have played, and I am an Ibanez fanboy through and through.

I am going to order a build right away.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Glades said:


> With all the hate that Kiesel gets on SSO, let me be honest, I do not get it.
> 
> I just stopped by my local GC to try out a 7 string Vanquish, and the guitar was phenomenal. First time trying a Kiesel. Fit and finish was great, played and sounded great. On par or better than any Ibanez I have played, and I am an Ibanez fanboy through and through.
> 
> I am going to order a build right away.



Ummm, the hate they get from me in particular is in regards to the face of the company being a dumbfuck all the time. I have a kiesel and a carvin and I like them a lot (playing my v220 a LOT lately)


----------



## CapinCripes

Floyd rose option is missing on the 6 string carve tops as well now with the exception of the crescent.


----------



## Albake21

Glades said:


> With all the hate that Kiesel gets on SSO, let me be honest, I do not get it.
> 
> I just stopped by my local GC to try out a 7 string Vanquish, and the guitar was phenomenal. First time trying a Kiesel. Fit and finish was great, played and sounded great. On par or better than any Ibanez I have played, and I am an Ibanez fanboy through and through.
> 
> I am going to order a build right away.


Do it man, they are totally worth it for the money. I'm pretty much exclusively a Kiesel and Ibanez player at this point. After a long journey of trying different guitars, including a few $3k+ boutique guitars, I've found those two to be fantastic quality for the money. I'm glad I put in my order with Kiesel 5 weeks ago and I'm excited for it to be finished.


----------



## Spicypickles

Glades said:


> With all the hate that Kiesel gets on SSO, let me be honest, I do not get it.
> 
> I just stopped by my local GC to try out a 7 string Vanquish, and the guitar was phenomenal. First time trying a Kiesel. Fit and finish was great, played and sounded great. On par or better than any Ibanez I have played, and I am an Ibanez fanboy through and through.
> 
> I am going to order a build right away.


The hate isn’t with the guitars themselves, more so the way the company is run and their shit customer service should problems arise.


----------



## makecamera

Albake21 said:


> Do it man, they are totally worth it for the money. I'm pretty much exclusively a Kiesel and Ibanez player at this point. After a long journey of trying different guitars, including a few $3k+ boutique guitars, I've found those two to be fantastic quality for the money. I'm glad I put in my order with Kiesel 5 weeks ago and I'm excited for it to be finished.



What happened to the Mayones and why'd you sell the Aristides? Did you replace them with that Kiesel order? Curious because I'm on a similar path (looking at Aristides next and currently own a couple Kiesels that I enjoy).


----------



## Jonathan20022

Glades said:


> With all the hate that Kiesel gets on SSO, let me be honest, I do not get it.
> 
> I just stopped by my local GC to try out a 7 string Vanquish, and the guitar was phenomenal. First time trying a Kiesel. Fit and finish was great, played and sounded great. On par or better than any Ibanez I have played, and I am an Ibanez fanboy through and through.
> 
> I am going to order a build right away.



This is just lazy at this point, you're in a 100+ thread filled with information to back up the "Kiesel Hate". I get not wanting to read through the whole thing, but people coming in once every few weeks saying exactly what you're saying is prime level ignorance at this point.

The guitars are sweet when they're done right, and as noted in here several times. When the opposite happens and a dud occurs, you're not going to have a good time meeting at a fitting compromise if you don't agree with their policies on duds. 

YMMV, order at your own risk and seriously don't be surprised if something goes south and falls down the bottomless pit of ego.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

So, in disappointing news, all Zeus Acoustic models are non-returnable. At least according to the online builder. 

I guess a silver lining is that there will probably be more used ones for sale since they can't be returned.

I know that, normally, this wouldn't be a huge deal, but I've had to send two Carvins back before due to issues, so it's kind of a bummer not having that option.


----------



## Rawkmann

MaxOfMetal said:


> So, in disappointing news, all Zeus Acoustic models are non-returnable. At least according to the online builder.
> 
> I guess a silver lining is that there will probably be more used ones for sale since they can't be returned.
> 
> I know that, normally, this wouldn't be a huge deal, but I've had to send two Carvins back before due to issues, so it's kind of a bummer not having that option.



Kiesels return policies do seem overtly restrictive these days. Based on my previous experiences with them I'd NEVER order something I couldnt return easily.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

MaxOfMetal said:


> So, in disappointing news, all Zeus Acoustic models are non-returnable. At least according to the online builder.
> 
> I guess a silver lining is that there will probably be more used ones for sale since they can't be returned.
> 
> I know that, normally, this wouldn't be a huge deal, but I've had to send two Carvins back before due to issues, so it's kind of a bummer not having that option.



that says something very important: even Jeff isn't confident in these models selling and staying in people's hands. he knows people won't like em so he's trying to take the money and run.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> So, in disappointing news, all Zeus Acoustic models are non-returnable. At least according to the online builder.





MatiasTolkki said:


> that says something very important: even Jeff isn't confident in these models selling and staying in people's hands. he knows people won't like em so he's trying to take the money and run.



Not neccessarily, Matias. This doesn't represent any changes in policy for the last while: This model comes standard with the raw tone finish, which has been a non-returnable option since it was released. it just happens to be the base finish on this model.

The funny thing is that any of the builds you see with anything but a mahogany body and spruce top are already non-returnable. So far, only about 1/3 of the pics I've seen have been of the standard specs. People have ordered squaburst on flamed maple, royal ebony tops, pink on burled poplar...and all of those would have come without the 1-day trial even though some of them had gloss finishes.

To me, the actual interesting change is the Johnny Hiland signature Solo, the JH6, which comes standard with the Raw Tone finish, and it DOES come with the 10-day trial. So if you want to try out a Raw Tone finish, that's the model to try it out on.


----------



## spudmunkey

Rawkmann said:


> Kiesels return policies do seem overtly restrictive these days. Based on my previous experiences with them I'd NEVER order something I couldnt return easily.




This has been gone over ad infinitum/nauseum in multiple threads, but the basic jist of reality is: the vast majority of things that have been made non-returnable were options that were never even available 5 years ago. Are there exceptions? Sure...but few. Like...left-handed multiscale, their raw tone satin finish, buckeye burl tops, etc...all void the 10-day trial, but are all new options added in the past few years that you never would have gotten in the first place. You can get an 8-string headless multiscale with a flamed koa top and 5-piece maple/black limba neck, gold EVO jumbo frets, tung oil neck and a royal ebony fretboard, and it'll come with a 10-day trial, for example.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> Not neccessarily, Matias. This doesn't represent any changes in policy for the last while: This model comes standard with the raw tone finish, which has been a non-returnable option since it was released. it just happens to be the base finish on this model.
> 
> The funny thing is that any of the builds you see with anything but a mahogany body and spruce top are already non-returnable. So far, only about 1/3 of the pics I've seen have been of the standard specs. People have ordered squaburst on flamed maple, royal ebony tops, pink on burled poplar...and all of those would have come without the 1-day trial even though some of them had gloss finishes.
> 
> To me, the actual interesting change is the Johnny Hiland signature Solo, the JH6, which comes standard with the Raw Tone finish, and it DOES come with the 10-day trial. So if you want to try out a Raw Tone finish, that's the model to try it out on.



The product page for the Zeus Acoustic says there's a 10-day trial, but since you _have to_ get the raw tone finish option, the builder says no returns. 

Which is it?


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> The product page for the Zeus Acoustic says there's a 10-day trial, but since you _have to_ get the raw tone finish option, the builder says no returns.
> 
> Which is it?



That's a really good question. I hadn't noticed that. Perhaps the JH6 doesn't have the 10-day then, either.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> Not neccessarily, Matias. This doesn't represent any changes in policy for the last while: This model comes standard with the raw tone finish, which has been a non-returnable option since it was released. it just happens to be the base finish on this model.
> 
> The funny thing is that any of the builds you see with anything but a mahogany body and spruce top are already non-returnable. So far, only about 1/3 of the pics I've seen have been of the standard specs. People have ordered squaburst on flamed maple, royal ebony tops, pink on burled poplar...and all of those would have come without the 1-day trial even though some of them had gloss finishes.
> 
> To me, the actual interesting change is the Johnny Hiland signature Solo, the JH6, which comes standard with the Raw Tone finish, and it DOES come with the 10-day trial. So if you want to try out a Raw Tone finish, that's the model to try it out on.



But the point is, Jeff intentionally put raw tone on those guitars in order to make them non-returnable because he doesn't have faith in the models selling. He made raw tone non-returnable from the beginning because he KNEW people would bitch and complain about it chipping easily and didn't want to deal with the hassle of guitars he couldn't sell if they went to in-stock. That has always been the deal with non-returnables, he knew raw tone would sell then people complaining about the finish would spread more bad things about kiesel so he wanted to make sure no one bashed the brand. That sounds like a lack of faith in what a person is doing, and his massive ego is there to cover up for his bad decisions.


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> But the point is, Jeff intentionally put raw tone on those guitars in order to make them non-returnable because he doesn't have faith in the models selling.



a) Or...and i realize how crazy this must sound...but maaaaaybe the use of their "raw tone" finish on this model, which is their thinnest finish they offer, with "tone" in it's name, would simply be the best choice for a semi-hollow "acoustic" model.


b) He's literally said that he designed it for himself to play on the couch, his staff encouraged him to release it as a production model, and that he's been surprised that it's been selling as well as it has.




MatiasTolkki said:


> he knew raw tone would sell then people complaining about the finish would spread more bad things about kiesel so he wanted to make sure no one bashed the brand.



I do believe this is the most convoluted logic thing I've read today. "I'm going to release something I know people will want, but then hate, so to prevent people from talking shit about the company, I'm not going to let them return it if they don't like it...yeah...that outta do it," is...I mean...your thought process perplexes me.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

Page 101 TL;DR: Pre-checked boxes in the Kiesel online builder for some base production models render them non-returnable by default. Anyone dead-set on buying the Kiesel experience is urged to de-select the unreturnable “raw tone” as the finish option and select a returnable one - if the option is there. You don’t _have_ to pretend the guitar is great in a NGD and flip it here.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> a) Or...and i realize how crazy this must sound...but maaaaaybe the use of their "raw tone" finish on this model, which is their thinnest finish they offer, with "tone" in it's name, would simply be the best choice for a semi-hollow "acoustic" model.
> 
> 
> b) He's literally said that he designed it for himself to play on the couch, his staff encouraged him to release it as a production model, and that he's been surprised that it's been selling as well as it has.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do believe this is the most convoluted logic thing I've read today. "I'm going to release something I know people will want, but then hate, so to prevent people from talking shit about the company, I'm not going to let them return it if they don't like it...yeah...that outta do it," is...I mean...your thought process perplexes me.



Then why is the raw tone finish non-returnable?

I mean, it can't be a special option if it's the only option, right?


----------



## spudmunkey

To take a step back, was there some official message somewhere where they said that the Zeus acoustic is actually non-returnable? I don't necessarily doubt that it is, I would just like to know that this is the case for sure. Their website is broken. We all know that. On the Builder, in the same line where it says that the raw tone finish is non-returnable, it also says that you must order it with an ash body and top... But we all know that that is not the case. If you step back to the product description page, it also says that it comes with an LR Baggs transducer... Which I don't believe is the case with this style of bridge...I studied tat this was a copy / paste from the cc275 product page. 

Going back to the issue of a non-returnable option being on the online Builder, would it be actually better if it wasn't on the Builder? People are always complaining that there are not enough of their options on the Builder. Would it be better if it was more like the left handed multiscale, which it simply says that it's available, but non-returnable, and you need to call in your order?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> To take a step back, was there some official message somewhere where they said that the Zeus acoustic is actually non-returnable? I don't necessarily doubt that it is, I would just like to know that this is the case for sure. Their website is broken. We all know that. On the Builder, in the same line where it says that the raw tone finish is non-returnable, it also says that you must order it with an ash body and top... But we all know that that is not the case. If you step back to the product description page, it also says that it comes with an LR Baggs transducer... Which I don't believe is the case with this style of bridge...I studied tat this was a copy / paste from the cc275 product page.



That's what I'm asking? 

Which is wrong, the builder or the product page?

The fact that one of the biggest Kiesel fans and sources of knowledge on here has no idea isn't very comforting. Nor is the fact that since thier customer service is shit I can't really depend on them honoring anything unless it's explicitly in writing, which brings us back to original question: which official piece of Kiesel policy is in effect? Does one trump the other?

I suppose I could call, but then it doesn't matter what the sales person tells me since Jeff has final say.

I want one of these, but not enough to play this game.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

spudmunkey said:


> To take a step back, was there some official message somewhere where they said that the Zeus acoustic is actually non-returnable? I don't necessarily doubt that it is, I would just like to know that this is the case for sure. Their website is broken. We all know that. On the Builder, in the same line where it says that the raw tone finish is non-returnable, it also says that you must order it with an ash body and top... But we all know that that is not the case. If you step back to the product description page, it also says that it comes with an LR Baggs transducer... Which I don't believe is the case with this style of bridge...I studied tat this was a copy / paste from the cc275 product page.
> 
> Going back to the issue of a non-returnable option being on the online Builder, would it be actually better if it wasn't on the Builder? People are always complaining that there are not enough of their options on the Builder. Would it be better if it was more like the left handed multiscale, which it simply says that it's available, but non-returnable, and you need to call in your order?



Either way, Kiesel isn’t taking suggestions from this thread. Or this site. They wouldn’t even take the suggestion to fuck off until they were perma-banned; and had to settle for having two KieselBBS posters registered here at any given time to run counterintelligence.


----------



## Albake21

makecamera said:


> What happened to the Mayones and why'd you sell the Aristides? Did you replace them with that Kiesel order? Curious because I'm on a similar path (looking at Aristides next and currently own a couple Kiesels that I enjoy).


I definitely didn't replace them with the Kiesel as I planned on keeping the Kiesel and Aristides, but in the end I got rid of both. As much as I loved the Mayones and Aristides, I just can't justify the price. They are phenomenal guitars (especially the Aristides) and definitely worth the money, but to me they weren't worth keeping. My problem is the ratio of quality to value. My Ibanez RG752 was bought for $700 used, while the quality isn't as good as the Mayones/Aristides (although honestly close), it sure as shit isn't even close to $2150 more in quality. And that's my problem with boutique guitars. You pay all this money but is it really worth it? I guess my point is, Kiesel's and especially Ibanez' are of fantastic quality especially for how much they go for. For now, I don't find a guitar over $2k worth it IMO. I don't care what guitar it is, the ratio of quality to how much it costs when comparing to cheaper brands is just too much and not worth it to me.

Just buy guitars that are high enough quality without breaking the bank, stop worrying about getting the best of the best, and just play guitar! Just my  from my long journey of guitar searching.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> I definitely didn't replace them with the Kiesel as I planned on keeping the Kiesel and Aristides, but in the end I got rid of both. As much as I loved the Mayones and Aristides, I just can't justify the price. They are phenomenal guitars (especially the Aristides) and definitely worth the money, but to me they weren't worth keeping. My problem is the ratio of quality to value. My Ibanez RG752 was bought for $700 used, while the quality isn't as good as the Mayones/Aristides (although honestly close), it sure as shit isn't even close to $2150 more in quality. And that's my problem with boutique guitars. You pay all this money but is it really worth it? I guess my point is, Kiesel's and especially Ibanez' are of fantastic quality especially for how much they go for. For now, I don't find a guitar over $2k worth it IMO. I don't care what guitar it is, the ratio of quality to how much it costs when comparing to cheaper brands is just too much and not worth it to me.
> 
> Just buy guitars that are high enough quality without breaking the bank, stop worrying about getting the best of the best, and just play guitar! Just my  from my long journey of guitar searching.



This is why I have an RG550RFR  And I got an AWESOME one at that


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

Albake21 said:


> You pay all this money but is it really worth it?



It would seem many of the fine contributors to this site value NGD “likes” at over two thousand dollars per thread. That’s all a guitar is, anymore: A fucking Xbox Live trophy or avatar, desired because one corner of a messageboard decided it was the cat’s ass and a must-own-and-replace-pickups. Then they squeeze a second NGD dopamine hit out of the thing by making a separate thread for the prescribed, burnt-nickel meme pickups they had “their tech” slap in for the sake of making the guitar even _less-_remarkable.

The most recent Blackmachine thread seriously has the previous owner unironically saying “hope you enjoy it as much as I did.” THE ONLY THING WE KNOW ABOUT HOW YOU LIKED IT WAS THAT YOU RESOLD IT IN SHORT ORDER. If only every impressionable, djent-refied player who’s still convinced that “briefly own a Blackmachine” is a worthy inclusion in a bucketlist could just sell the same guitar to each other until it was out of everbody’s systems, I wouldn’t feel so bad for Doug or the people who did their part in turning his passion into a stressful job.

/rant

Kiesels are good guitars.


----------



## spudmunkey

I kinda get the quick turn around thing. I've got cousins who buy and flip cars all the time. Granted, they are shit boxes, but they buy any car that they've had a slightest interest in owning as long as they can get a good price, and then turn it over. Sometimes within weeks. Sometimes it costs him some money, but it's his hobby and he doesn't rally drink or go to movies, so it balances out I guess.

A couple months ago, he admitted to spending more than he should have on a Pontiac Solstice coupe/targa (not the convertible) because he just wanted to have one, and then sold it a week and a half later at a loss because he hated the trunk, but liked everyting else about it.

He's also sold cars he really liked just because he didn't have the space for 4 cars and had to pick one to go on the chopping block. Seems like it could be a similar thing.

There's a guy on the Kiesel FB group that, every fewof months, will post an alert of a handfull of almost brand-new Kiesel guitars that he dropped off at the local Guitar Center...and he's cycled through several batches of new guitars, while ordering new ones. One of the last batches was like 3 V220 builds. He just likes buying them, then selling 'em...to GC for some reason I can't fathom except for maybe ease of the transaction.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Hell I'm appreciative of the market and general environment, I get a chance at buying a guitar for far less than it was new and try brands I wouldn't commit a full priced order to because of it. There's plenty of reasons why people flip and sell gear, it could turn out to not fit their hands well, nor sound like what they expected. In general you aren't making money flipping gear unless you're outright scamming other people, so I don't get the negativity towards that when it harms pretty much no one besides the original owner losing a couple hundred.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Jonathan20022 said:


> Hell I'm appreciative of the market and general environment, I get a chance at buying a guitar for far less than it was new and try brands I wouldn't commit a full priced order to because of it. There's plenty of reasons why people flip and sell gear, it could turn out to not fit their hands well, nor sound like what they expected. In general you aren't making money flipping gear unless you're outright scamming other people, so I don't get the negativity towards that when it harms pretty much no one besides the original owner losing a couple hundred.



There's a difference between a good old fashioned gear-whore and a hype-flipper. Unfortunately, it's easy for folks to get the two confused.

The gear-whores buy and sell constantly because they can and just love guitars. They're not trying to make bank or even thier money back, just trying not to completely throw money away while moving on to greener pastures and new adventures. 

The hype-flipper will post endlessly about a particular brand or model of guitar, build the hype and the mythos, then spam the crap out of the forums and listing sites, throw up huge, inflated prices and get thier buddies to do bogus offers and sales.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Yeah definintely the early Blackmachine blow up was ridiculous, I eventually got one of those B6's in a trade and was thoroughly unimpressed. Thankfully it sold for close to what I put into it trade wise so it wasn't a huge hit, but yeah serial flipping is definitely an issue.


----------



## Albake21

MaxOfMetal said:


> There's a difference between a good old fashioned gear-whore and a hype-flipper. Unfortunately, it's easy for folks to get the two confused.
> 
> The gear-whores buy and sell constantly because they can and just love guitars. They're not trying to make bank or even thier money back, just trying not to completely throw money away while moving on to greener pastures and new adventures.
> 
> The hype-flipper will post endlessly about a particular brand or model of guitar, build the hype and the mythos, then spam the crap out of the forums and listing sites, throw up huge, inflated prices and get thier buddies to do bogus offers and sales.


I'm just a gear whore...... oh my poor bank account hates me....


----------



## Snarpaasi

Albake21 said:


> I'm just a gear whore...... oh my poor bank account hates me....



And I just can't resist linking the intro.... 

E: Apparently pasting an URL has changed, how to get rid of the automated [] [/], well whatever..


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Is Dev stoned as fuck?


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> I kinda get the quick turn around thing. I've got cousins who buy and flip cars all the time. Granted, they are shit boxes, but they buy any car that they've had a slightest interest in owning as long as they can get a good price, and then turn it over. Sometimes within weeks. Sometimes it costs him some money, but it's his hobby and he doesn't rally drink or go to movies, so it balances out I guess.
> 
> A couple months ago, he admitted to spending more than he should have on a Pontiac Solstice coupe/targa (not the convertible) because he just wanted to have one, and then sold it a week and a half later at a loss because he hated the trunk, but liked everyting else about it.
> 
> He's also sold cars he really liked just because he didn't have the space for 4 cars and had to pick one to go on the chopping block. Seems like it could be a similar thing.
> 
> There's a guy on the Kiesel FB group that, every fewof months, will post an alert of a handfull of almost brand-new Kiesel guitars that he dropped off at the local Guitar Center...and he's cycled through several batches of new guitars, while ordering new ones. One of the last batches was like 3 V220 builds. He just likes buying them, then selling 'em...to GC for some reason I can't fathom except for maybe ease of the transaction.



who is he?


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> who is he?



I just tried looking it up, but the posts in the FS/FT group look like they have been taken down once they were sold. The last batch had a light lavender V220, I think a surf green one, etc.


----------



## spudmunkey

I think I've gathered up all of the changes from this last month or so:



- New JH6 model (basically, a package of options for the Solo)


- New multiscale JB4 and JB5 (I'm actually really excited about this one)


- Xcellerator bass is retired (Not surprised...never sold all that well)


- 7-string Floyd Rose retired from the line up (the change to the LPM7 is not confirmed, though)


- DC127-12 retired


- CT3 variant of the CT line retired


- CT7 retired


- Price increase on some models


- X220 retired


- 6 string Floyd Rose removed as an option from CT, CS, and Solo (it was removed from the Vanquish too, but that was months ago)


- SH7 retired (which makes sense if the CT7 was retired, and I don't know if I saw a single NGD post anywhere for an SH7...the SH6 doesn't sell very well either, so I'm worried about that one...that's one I'm considering for my next.) Discontinuing a model after 1 year isn't without precedent, though...they did it 28 years ago with the BC130.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> I think I've gathered up all of the changes from this last month or so:



Thanks!



> - New multiscale JB4 and JB5 (I'm actually really excited about this one)



I was too until I saw the scales, but it's nice to see some multi scale basses in general.



> - CT3 variant of the CT line retired
> 
> - CT7 retired



I'm surprised the CT is around at all considering the Crescent.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'm surprised the CT is around at all considering the Crescent.



Take the one guy out of the mix that I think has 5-6 from the Facebook Pics of the Day, and the Crescents seem to sell about on par with the CTs, which is impressive since the CTs only come in 6 and 7 string, and no extended or multiscale, no Hipshot fixed bridge, you can get a chambered Crescent with a sound hole without going to a thicker body (like the SH6 vs the CT).


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> I think I've gathered up all of the changes from this last month or so:
> 
> 
> 
> - New JH6 model (basically, a package of options for the Solo)
> 
> 
> - New multiscale JB4 and JB5 (I'm actually really excited about this one)
> 
> 
> - Xcellerator bass is retired (Not surprised...never sold all that well)
> 
> 
> - 7-string Floyd Rose retired from the line up (the change to the LPM7 is not confirmed, though)
> 
> 
> - DC127-12 retired
> 
> 
> - CT3 variant of the CT line retired
> 
> 
> - CT7 retired
> 
> 
> - Price increase on some models
> 
> 
> - X220 retired
> 
> 
> - 6 string Floyd Rose removed as an option from CT, CS, and Solo (it was removed from the Vanquish too, but that was months ago)
> 
> 
> - SH7 retired (which makes sense if the CT7 was retired, and I don't know if I saw a single NGD post anywhere for an SH7...the SH6 doesn't sell very well either, so I'm worried about that one...that's one I'm considering for my next.) Discontinuing a model after 1 year isn't without precedent, though...they did it 28 years ago with the BC130.


None of these changes are surprising to me besides the JH6. Not to sound like an asshole, but I'm pretty surprised he got his own signature. There are so many players out there that would make a lot more sense, business-wise, to have a signature of their own. I'm not trying to bash Johnny at all, I just don't see him being a good sell for the brand. Especially since it's just a package for a model that already doesn't sell that well.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> Take the one guy out of the mix that I think has 5-6 from the Facebook Pics of the Day, and the Crescents seem to sell about on par with the CTs, which is impressive since the CTs only come in 6 and 7 string, and no extended or multiscale, no Hipshot fixed bridge, you can get a chambered Crescent with a sound hole without going to a thicker body (like the SH6 vs the CT).



I'm sure the CT still has a huge following.

I just assumed it was an "out with the old, in with the new" kind of thing. 

They're so similar, I'm sure as the Cresent evolves and becomes a "Kiesel classic" like the CT was to Carvin. 

Aside from some minor gripes about the top carve, I still think it's the best shape Kiesel has going accross the various string counts and scales.


----------



## xzacx

Albake21 said:


> None of these changes are surprising to me besides the JH6. Not to sound like an asshole, but I'm pretty surprised he got his own signature. There are so many players out there that would make a lot more sense, business-wise, to have a signature of their own. I'm not trying to bash Johnny at all, I just don't see him being a good sell for the brand. Especially since it's just a package for a model that already doesn't sell that well.



It makes perfect sense to me - unless they only want to ever focus on a single niche market, they probably need to associate themselves with players from other genres.


----------



## Albake21

xzacx said:


> It makes perfect sense to me - unless they only want to ever focus on a single niche market, they probably need to associate themselves with players from other genres.


You mean like Allan Holdsworth, Brian Bromberg, Frank Gambale, Chris Letchford, Craig Chaquico, Jason Becker, and Neil Zaza? All who aren't part of the "niche" market you are referring to. Which I'm going to assume you are talking about the heavy metal "djent" market?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Albake21 said:


> None of these changes are surprising to me besides the JH6. Not to sound like an asshole, but I'm pretty surprised he got his own signature. There are so many players out there that would make a lot more sense, business-wise, to have a signature of their own. I'm not trying to bash Johnny at all, I just don't see him being a good sell for the brand. Especially since it's just a package for a model that already doesn't sell that well.



It gives Kiesel a bit of legitimacy from a certain crowd.

His PRS and EBMM models weren't really "special" either at the time. But they sold a bunch of them.

It is a risk though since he moves on pretty quickly.


----------



## spudmunkey

I do really like certain things about the Crescent:
- The set-through construction and what it does for the neck heel
- the direct mount pickups
- the "less PRS-y" shape


Things I understand the appeal of, but aren't for me:
- Thinner body (carved-top looks, thickness of the Aries/DC600, etc)
- Lack of 22 fret option
- The need for a top wood to cover the set-in neck (not required on the CT because the neck stops at the pickup route...but this is no longer a cross-shopping consideration since the solid, untopped, CT3 was retired)


Things I don't like about the Crescent
- The flat area in the middle of the top...i feel like there would have been a better way to create the flexible flat area needed for all the different bridge types (evertune, trems, hipshot fixed, etc). 
- the flat areas on the body on each side of the neck on the 6-string models. This could actually go up in the previous category, because they are there so they can use the same body for different neck widths (production efficiencies), but my distaste for them is pronounced enough that it should go here.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> I
> Things I don't like about the Crescent
> - The flat area in the middle of the top...i feel like there would have been a better way to create the flexible flat area needed for all the different bridge types (evertune, trems, hipshot fixed, etc).



Just quoting this for posterity. 

That’s literally my only real gripe.


----------



## xzacx

Albake21 said:


> You mean like Allan Holdsworth, Brian Bromberg, Frank Gambale, Chris Letchford, Craig Chaquico, Jason Becker, and Neil Zaza? All who aren't part of the "niche" market you are referring to. Which I'm going to assume you are talking about the heavy metal "djent" market?



Do you really think a lot of Neil Zaza superfans are calling Jeff's guys to put in their their headless multi-scale 8 orders? Sure, saying they only market to once niche is a bit of hyperbole, but there's clearly an audience that modern Kiesel has been catering to. Which has been smart - it's a younger demographic that actually buys gear. But it's not that hard to understand why they'd be attracted to an artist like Johnny. He appeals to a different demo that also buys gear, and he's had signature models with bigger and more prestigious brands which helps give Kiesel more legitimacy. And based on the Kiesel business model, it's not like they're going to end up with a bunch of them sitting around if people don't order them.


----------



## Albake21

xzacx said:


> Do you really think a lot of Neil Zaza superfans are calling Jeff's guys to put in their their headless multi-scale 8 orders?


No.... that's my point. Kiesel already has plenty of signature artists that do no cater towards that genre. Like it or not, Kiesel's main buyer are this "niche" market you say. With that said, they have more signatures catered towards other genres, so why add another genre that isn't their main market? I'm only trying to look at this from a business prospective.

Mark my words, not many of these will be sold.


----------



## xzacx

Albake21 said:


> No.... that's my point. Kiesel already has plenty of signature artists that do no cater towards that genre. Like it or not, Kiesel's main buyer are this "niche" market you say. With that said, they have more signatures catered towards other genres, so why add another genre that isn't their main market? I'm only trying to look at this from a business prospective.
> 
> Mark my words, not many of these will be sold.



But those “other” signature guys are mostly legacy guys from the Carvin days with zero relevance today, that most people don’t even know or care are now with Kiesel. Country is actually a popular genre still as opposed to jazz and fusion. I don’t necessarily disagree with you about it not selling, but what if it doesn’t? It’s not like they spent a lot of r&d resources developing a new model.


----------



## spudmunkey

I believe Jeff mentioned that this was more in line with the type of signature models they see themselves offering up going forward: a custom variation of an existing model, like the NZ and JH, rather than a bespoke design (like Holdsworth, Bromberg, Jason Becker JB24 and JBPB). Then, if the signature model eclipses the standard to the point that it doesn't pay to keep the "pleb spec" standard model around (like the SH445 to the FG1, AC275 to the CC275, and the ST300 to the JB200C), then retire those as needed.

I wish they could have kept around the SB4000/5000/4001/5001 bases. It was a unique model that was getting a lot of press, showed up in the hands of players on TV shows and live events, etc...then Sekou Bunch left, and they killed (had to kill?) the model. I dig the JB a lot (more so than most "JB" style basses), but liked the SB more.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

I wish the JB200SC was still around. That's still the carvin I wish I had.


----------



## spudmunkey

Yeah...I realize that times-a-wastin' on the two/three models I'm most interested, too (GH3 or Bolt and SH6)...they don't seem to be huge sellers, and could get the axe at any time. It's like the Sword of Damocles is hanging over their existance, and could get cut at any time. And...as much as it sucks...it would be my fault for not ordering one yet.


----------



## Albake21

xzacx said:


> But those “other” signature guys are mostly legacy guys from the Carvin days with zero relevance today, that most people don’t even know or care are now with Kiesel. Country is actually a popular genre still as opposed to jazz and fusion. I don’t necessarily disagree with you about it not selling, but what if it doesn’t? It’s not like they spent a lot of r&d resources developing a new model.


Very true, very true.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

i still want a zeus. I just can't decide if I go au natural and go straight black limba with an ebony board, or go obnoxious sparkle hmmm.... maybe if I wait a bit more that killer blue sparkle zeus I saw a while back will pop up.


----------



## Albake21

KnightBrolaire said:


> i still want a zeus. I just can't decide if I go au natural and go straight black limba with an ebony board, or go obnoxious sparkle hmmm.... maybe if I wait a bit more that killer blue sparkle zeus I saw a while back will pop up.


I want an aqua sparkle so damn badly, but Kiesel charges WAY too much for a sparkle finish.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> I want an aqua sparkle so damn badly, but Kiesel charges WAY too much for a sparkle finish.



Someone posted a sparkle aries for sale on the facebook Kiesel buy/sell/trade group yesterday


----------



## spudmunkey

I might say to hold off if you can. I remember hearing them mention that as they are getting more orders for them, and they are getting better at doing them, that they are thinking of lowering the price. I assume from $600 to something still high like $400, but...

They actually do the sparkle finishes in batches, so there's longer leadtime. I can imagine it's *QUITE* the pain to clean up. The couple of times they did them in the past, I remember them saying "Never again!" after doing that "Micharl Jackson" tribute JB200SC for Jason Becker ( https://www.guitarworld.com/.image/t_share/MTUwNjEyMjMzMTU2ODMwODgx/unknown_19_1jpeg.jpg ) because of the mess it makes in their factory, since they aren't able to really send a batch of 100 bodies through and then not have to do it again for a few months.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

i remember talking with max about just getting a bare bones zeus and then having marty bell make it sparkly. miiiight be slightly less than ordering a sparkle through kiesel.


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> Someone posted a sparkle aries for sale on the facebook Kiesel buy/sell/trade group yesterday


Are you talking about the purple one? If so, that one has that weird Disney/toyish looking silver to purple burst. Definitely not my taste.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> Are you talking about the purple one? If so, that one has that weird Disney/toyish looking silver to purple burst. Definitely not my taste.



Nah i think it was a blue cali-burst or something.


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> Nah i think it was a blue cali-burst or something.


Really? Hmm I definitely didn't see it and I check that page daily lol.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> Really? Hmm I definitely didn't see it and I check that page daily lol.



Oh my bad, it was a vader :/


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> Oh my bad, it was a vader :/


Ahh yeah I saw that one. Headless guitars just aren't for me.


----------



## spudmunkey

Two more:


- Rosewood backplates and TRCs being discontinued


- White Limba tops discontinued


----------



## Albake21

That was super surprising to hear about the X220's. While I knew they weren't big sellers, I didn't think they were selling _that _poorly. For anyone who didn't see, Jeff gave us the numbers on X220 sales in 2018. Out of 2130 guitars sold so far in 2018, only two X220's have been sold. Pretty crazy.


----------



## spudmunkey

in a video a couple months ago, if i remember right, he said he has to believe that a new model will sell 25 or 50 a year (I don't remember which) before it justifies the R&D to bring the model to market, and once it drops below 10, it's likely not going to stick around, especially if it has bespoke parts.

The one saving grace for the Bolt, which doesn't seem to sell in very-high numbers and uses a bespoke part for which they need to have at least 16 different versions of (the pickguard, for R&L handed, at least two bridge types, 4 materials and HSS and SSS) is the Carvin logo.

I'm positive that the only reason the Bolt is still badged a Carvin is to hold the trademark, so that nobody else can use it. in the US, you can't just register a name and squat on it. you have to "make a bonafide effort" to actually use the trademark to keep it. This is why even though I had a custom acoustic built with my own name and logo, I've never posted an image of the headstock on the offchance that one day i want to brand a guitar that I build with this logo...and I don't show it, because I know i won't be able to do anything with it in a year, which is i think how long you have after registering it actually try to do something with it. 

And as long as they have at least one guitar with "Carvin" on it, I'm sure that's enough to keep it.

...although I think there's one last other model with "Carvin" on the headstock is the JB200C...ok, so maybe the Bolt isn't as safe as i thought when I started writing this. Ha!


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> in a video a couple months ago, if i remember right, he said he has to believe that a new model will sell 25 or 50 a year (I don't remember which) before it justifies the R&D to bring the model to market, and once it drops below 10, it's likely not going to stick around, especially if it has bespoke parts.
> 
> The one saving grace for the Bolt, which doesn't seem to sell in very-high numbers and uses a bespoke part for which they need to have at least 16 different versions of (the pickguard, for R&L handed, at least two bridge types, 4 materials and HSS and SSS) is the Carvin logo.
> 
> I'm positive that the only reason the Bolt is still badged a Carvin is to hold the trademark, so that nobody else can use it. in the US, you can't just register a name and squat on it. you have to "make a bonafide effort" to actually use the trademark to keep it. This is why even though I had a custom acoustic built with my own name and logo, I've never posted an image of the headstock on the offchance that one day i want to brand a guitar that I build with this logo...and I don't show it, because I know i won't be able to do anything with it in a year, which is i think how long you have after registering it actually try to do something with it.
> 
> And as long as they have at least one guitar with "Carvin" on it, I'm sure that's enough to keep it.
> 
> ...although I think there's one last other model with "Carvin" on the headstock is the JB200C...ok, so maybe the Bolt isn't as safe as i thought when I started writing this. Ha!



Well Chris told me that the Carvin logo will NEVER come off the JB200s, and the only two models that have that logo are the bolt and JB200, so they can hold the copyright even with the just the JB200 I think.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> That was super surprising to hear about the X220's. While I knew they weren't big sellers, I didn't think they were selling _that _poorly. For anyone who didn't see, Jeff gave us the numbers on X220 sales in 2018. Out of 2130 guitars sold so far in 2018, only two X220's have been sold. Pretty crazy.



That's pretty insane. It also doesnt help that they increased the prices on pointies a couple years ago, which just makes it even harder to justify buying one when there are other guitars that they offer that are so much cheaper.


----------



## spudmunkey

I've been on the lookout for a Carvin VT16 amp head, their little vintage 16w tweed-patterned-tolex-covered unit, for a couple of years.

17 hours after making the decision to completely revamp my amp setup and going with a Helix and a FR and buying the helix...a like-new VT16 pops up on Craigslist, 15-20 minutes away from my home at an OK price.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> I've been on the lookout for a Carvin VT16 amp head, their little vintage 16w tweed-patterned-tolex-covered unit, for a couple of years.
> 
> 17 hours after making the decision to completely revamp my amp setup and going with a Helix and a FR and buying the helix...a like-new VT16 pops up on Craigslist, 15-20 minutes away from my home at an OK price.



This is why you dont buy digital


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> I've been on the lookout for a Carvin VT16 amp head, their little vintage 16w tweed-patterned-tolex-covered unit, for a couple of years.
> 
> 17 hours after making the decision to completely revamp my amp setup and going with a Helix and a FR and buying the helix...a like-new VT16 pops up on Craigslist, 15-20 minutes away from my home at an OK price.


Well now you just have to buy both


----------



## KnightBrolaire

meh the x220 looks stupid, same with the ultra v. I'm glad the x220 is going away.


----------



## Seabeast2000

MatiasTolkki said:


> This is why you dont buy digital


111000111001011110010101110!!!!


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> This is why you dont buy digital



01001000 01100001 01110010 00101101 01100100 01100101 01100101 00101101 01101000 01100001 01110010 00101101 01101000 01100001 01110010


----------



## MatiasTolkki

KnightBrolaire said:


> meh the x220 looks stupid, same with the ultra v. I'm glad the x220 is going away.



Hey watch it, the X220 was cool. I spent a lot of time deciding between an X220 and V220, and while I chose the v220, I wish I coulda had an X220 as well.

And to add to the great design of the V/X models, the longer bottom horn allows you to hold it against your leg for soloing, exactly how Glenn Tipton used to use his old Hamer with that over-extended bottom horn (which he has said was completely intentional for that exact purpose). So don't knock those designs unless you've actually seen how functional they actually are.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

MatiasTolkki said:


> Hey watch it, the X220 was cool. I spent a lot of time deciding between an X220 and V220, and while I chose the v220, I wish I coulda had an X220 as well.
> 
> And to add to the great design of the V/X models, the longer bottom horn allows you to hold it against your leg for soloing, exactly how Glenn Tipton used to use his old Hamer with that over-extended bottom horn (which he has said was completely intentional for that exact purpose). So don't knock those designs unless you've actually seen how functional they actually are.


a jackson star or warrior both achieve the same goal without looking as dumb imo


----------



## MatiasTolkki

KnightBrolaire said:


> a jackson star or warrior both achieve the same goal without looking as dumb imo



The horns are shorter on the bottom, which is NOT how you get that functionality. There's a reason having a longer lower horn works. Glenn Tipton's hamer looks ugly as sin with that overlong bottom horn, but it works perfectly for what it was designed for, which is the same thing that you can do with the X/V220s and even the Ultra Vs.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

MatiasTolkki said:


> The horns are shorter on the bottom, which is NOT how you get that functionality. There's a reason having a longer lower horn works. Glenn Tipton's hamer looks ugly as sin with that overlong bottom horn, but it works perfectly for what it was designed for, which is the same thing that you can do with the X/V220s and even the Ultra Vs.


yes i understand that it has a longer lower horn, i'm not blind. the longer upper horn on the star and warrior both help keep the guitar stable/comfy in a classical position or standing. hell even the dean ml is good for that, and it's almost as ugly as the x220


----------



## xzacx

I don’t believe for a second that those designs were done with functionality in mind as much as they were to look enough different from previous designs as to not get sued.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

xzacx said:


> I don’t believe for a second that those designs were done with functionality in mind as much as they were to look enough different from previous designs as to not get sued.



I never said they were designed for that purpose. I said that it was functional and that makes the designs GOOD. I wish people would actually stop reading between the lines and just read what is written, because i'm not some kinda person who writes something only to have it mean something else.


----------



## Lemons

MatiasTolkki said:


> I wish people would actually stop reading between the lines and just read what is written, because i'm not some kinda person who writes something only to have it mean something else.



Didn't you just spend 10 pages bashing Kiesel only to flip completely and order a brand new one?


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Lemons said:


> Didn't you just spend 10 pages bashing Kiesel only to flip completely and order a brand new one?



except I was very direct in what I said and changing my mind does NOT equate to someone putting words in my mouth.


----------



## spudmunkey

The Holdsworth H2 (the non-headless, non-semi-hollow, first Holdsworth sig) was retired. 

I'll note that this wasn't announced today. A suppose a testament to how low this one must have sold, is that nobody seemed to notice it at the beginning of the month, and not until I saw someone ask about it today, almost 4 weeks after it was gone from the website.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

spudmunkey said:


> The Holdsworth H2 (the non-headless, non-semi-hollow, first Holdsworth sig) was retired.
> 
> I'll note that this wasn't announced today. A suppose a testament to how low this one must have sold, is that nobody seemed to notice it at the beginning of the month, and not until I saw someone ask about it today, almost 4 weeks after it was gone from the website.


yet another guitar that obviously needed to be retired like the x220.
I can't wait for them to get rid of the shorty headstock. It looks like a chode.
I would own a lot more carvins/kiesels if they didn't have that headstock.


----------



## spudmunkey

KnightBrolaire said:


> It looks like a chode.



You've seen some weird looking penises, then.







KnightBrolaire said:


> I would own a lot more carvins/kiesels if they didn't have that headstock.



Not a photoshop:


----------



## KnightBrolaire

spudmunkey said:


> You've seen some weird looking penises, then.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a photoshop:



oh my bad, I meant this headstock


----------



## FitRocker33

That H2 body shape looks like a glob of semen

EDIT: and the vanquish body shape looks like a silhouette of Shrek’s head


----------



## KnightBrolaire

FitRocker33 said:


> That body shape looks like a glob of semen


yeah the vanquish is a hideous body shape.


----------



## spudmunkey

KnightBrolaire said:


> oh my bad, I meant this headstock



I mis understood what you meant by "I would own a lot more carvins/kiesels if they didn't have that headstock."

I thought you meant that you would have bought some Holdsworth models if they didn't have that Holdsworth headstock, and I showed one that didn't have it...but I guess you meant that there were some 2nd hand or in-stock builds that happened to have that headstock that kept you from buying them....and the image you showed of the Vanquish that you said was hideous, that's the only other model that comes standard with that headstock, so literally every other model except the Neil Zaza sig doesn't have it unless you order it that way.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

i love the holdsworth headstock. straight string pull ftw


----------



## KnightBrolaire

spudmunkey said:


> I mis understood what you meant by "I would own a lot more carvins/kiesels if they didn't have that headstock."
> 
> I thought you meant that you would have bought some Holdsworth models if they didn't have that Holdsworth headstock, and I showed one that didn't have it...but I guess you meant that there were some 2nd hand or in-stock builds that happened to have that headstock that kept you from buying them....and the image you showed of the Vanquish that you said was hideous, that's the only other model that comes standard with that headstock, so literally every other model except the Neil Zaza sig doesn't have it unless you order it that way.


I'm pretty sure I've seen that headstock as an option for other builds. Just from looking at the in-stock guitars there's like 4 with that type of headstock.


----------



## Seabeast2000

I like the vanquish. I do what I want you don't know me!


----------



## spudmunkey

KnightBrolaire said:


> I'm pretty sure I've seen that headstock as an option for other builds. Just from looking at the in-stock guitars there's like 4 with that type of headstock.



Yes, it an _option_ on almost all of their model...but it's only the standard on two..and one of them (the neil Zaza) is just a CT624 with the tone knob delete and i think the thinner neck, so you have to _want_ it to get it.


----------



## Albake21

KnightBrolaire said:


> oh my bad, I meant this headstock


I actually love this head stock on 7 strings, especially in person. I was pretty indifferent about the whole Vanquish line in general until I recently received my KV7 now my view on them has completely changed. I still prefer the normal super strat body and normal headstocks, but I now have a soft spot for these.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

I have hated just about every one of the new kiesel model designs. I've played an Aries and while the bevel is nice, it looks like watery shits without the top covering the entire top of the body. The focus on headless is meh, and the stupid beveling is out of control at this point. I like stuff that actually looks "normal" for a lack of a better word, and the things Kiesel has been shitting out since the vader was released just turn me off entirely.


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> I have hated just about every one of the new kiesel model designs. I've played an Aries and while the bevel is nice, it looks like watery shits without the top covering the entire top of the body. The focus on headless is meh, and the stupid beveling is out of control at this point. I like stuff that actually looks "normal" for a lack of a better word, and the things Kiesel has been shitting out since the vader was released just turn me off entirely.


Then get the newer DC or an Aries without the bevel...


----------



## Exit Existence

Just wanted to share a quick tidbit my awesome recent experience with their customer service.

I ordered a Vader almost a year and a half ago from them. It's been great no issues, but out of the blue the 5 way switch stopped working properly. Really weird shit where the neck pickup will sometimes stay on when the switch is in the bridge position. I had the switch cleaned and it didn't fix the issue so it must have gone bad, maybe from sweat or just faulty.
This is not a huge problem, people replace switches all the time...stuff like this goes bad.

I could have just ordered a new one (only $8) but I reached out nicely to the Kiesel sales person I ordered from inquiring about it.
They sent me a new 5 way for free, no questions asked with expedited postage. Even though I've owned it for over a year and put some heavy usage on it, they hooked me up.
This was super cool of them.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

the thoriums have finally been released for 7/8 strings. not on the builder yet, but I'm curious how they sound.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

KnightBrolaire said:


> the thoriums have finally been released for 7/8 strings. not on the builder yet, but I'm curious how they sound.



only 7/8s? WEAK.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

MatiasTolkki said:


> only 7/8s? WEAK.


that's what i read in the kiesel fb group. I would bet that the 6 string versions will be ready relatively soon.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

That's lame, the 6 strings should be first, since those sell more than 7 or 8s.


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> That's lame, the 6 strings should be first, since those sell more than 7 or 8s.



They were released when ready. He said he still had some tweaking to do to the 6. Pickups don't sound the same from string-count to string-count without a little bit of tweaking. He started them all, got the 7 and 8 to sound like how he wanted, but the 6 needed more attention.


----------



## Mathemagician

KnightBrolaire said:


> oh my bad, I meant this headstock



This is actually my favorite headstock of theirs. Looks good on most models. IMO I just wish the point came out another half inch or so further.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Unpopular Opinion: The Vanguard actually looks pretty cool with certain finishes.


----------



## wannabguitarist

KnightBrolaire said:


> oh my bad, I meant this headstock



This is easily one of the coolest guitars posted in this thread


----------



## AkiraSpectrum

MaxOfMetal said:


> Unpopular Opinion: The Vanguard actually looks pretty cool with certain finishes.


I really like the vanquish myself. Especially the one SteveTerreberry has; it’s gorgeous.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

AkiraSpectrum said:


> I really like the vanquish myself. Especially the one SteveTerreberry has; it’s gorgeous.



Vanquish, yeah. I knew it was something like that. 

The solid finish, fanned models look pretty great.


----------



## that short guy

I've had this guitar for a little under a week and I love it. I'm not really going to post an NGD thread but I'll at least post in here

Also I just realized there is a typo at the end of the video.... damn it lol.


----------



## that short guy

wouldn't let me edit my last post, old typo video is gone, new one without typo is up


----------



## Albake21

I just wanted to let everyone know our favorite Kiesel is up for sale now, get it before it's gone! /s

https://reverb.com/item/14987635-ki...2018-kiesel-racing-orange-kiesel-racing-green


----------



## MatiasTolkki

LMAO that thing is ugly as hell


----------



## strangers

It's like a guitar designed to be my own personal hell.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Albake21 said:


> I just wanted to let everyone know our favorite Kiesel is up for sale now, get it before it's gone! /s
> 
> https://reverb.com/item/14987635-ki...2018-kiesel-racing-orange-kiesel-racing-green


this is what an STD would look like if it was a guitar


----------



## Albake21

The funniest part was when Jeff was doing a live walkthrough about a month ago, he stumbled upon this guitar and tried his hardest to play it off as if it was super "rad".

I'm usually one to be against the whole Kiesel hate thing.... but my god this guitar is the guitar of my nightmares. At the same time, it's not really Kiesel's fault, it's who ever ordered the thing.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Albake21 said:


> I just wanted to let everyone know our favorite Kiesel is up for sale now, get it before it's gone! /s
> 
> https://reverb.com/item/14987635-ki...2018-kiesel-racing-orange-kiesel-racing-green


----------



## ThePIGI King

KnightBrolaire said:


> this is what an STD would look like if it was a guitar


I thought STDs were supposed to be either:
A) Affordable
B) Sexy
I would never pay that much for an STD. I prefer mine for free.


----------



## Albake21

In better news, my build was just posted on their Facebook! NGD incoming!


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

Albake21 said:


> In better news, my build was just posted on their Facebook! NGD incoming!



WOW.
That is hands *DOWN* the coolest Kiesel I've ever seen. It looks like someone took a clean RG3120, improved it with a hardtail, and turned it up past 11 straight to 12.
I'm pretty firmly in the anti-Kiesel camp but game recognizes game and that is one sensual axe.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Ordacleaphobia said:


> WOW.
> That is hands *DOWN* the coolest Kiesel I've ever seen. It looks like someone took a clean RG3120, improved it with a hardtail, and turned it up past 11 straight to 12.
> I'm pretty firmly in the anti-Kiesel camp but game recognizes game and that is one sensual axe.



Hardtails aren't improvements.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

MatiasTolkki said:


> Hardtails aren't improvements.



Cease your heresy.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Ordacleaphobia said:


> Cease your heresy.



Double locking trems>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>hardtails


----------



## Hollowway

Albake21 said:


> I just wanted to let everyone know our favorite Kiesel is up for sale now, get it before it's gone! /s
> 
> https://reverb.com/item/14987635-ki...2018-kiesel-racing-orange-kiesel-racing-green



I like how he’s asking $1600. Oddly, I don’t think this guitar could be made more horrific. Just a neck pickup? In CREAM? Good lord.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> I don’t think this guitar could be made more horrific.



I have two words for you: "Blue" and "KTB".


----------



## spudmunkey

Albake21 said:


> In better news, my build was just posted on their Facebook! NGD incoming!


That is AMAZING!!! Loving the Aurora color on so many builds lately! I'd love to see an aurora blue top with graphite back . Yum.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Albake21 said:


> In better news, my build was just posted on their Facebook! NGD incoming!


this is a wonderful contrast to the hideous neon gonorrhea green/orange holdsworth posted earlier.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

Albake21 said:


> https://reverb.com/item/14987635-ki...2018-kiesel-racing-orange-kiesel-racing-green



Hey, it’s that guitar that killed Allan Holdsworth.


----------



## Glades

Albake21 said:


> In better news, my build was just posted on their Facebook! NGD incoming!




This goes to show that there are customers that know how to spec out sexy guitars, and there are customers with terrible taste. This is one tasty axe.

Contrats man! I should be placing my order this week.


----------



## Albake21

Glades said:


> This goes to show that there are customers that know how to spec out sexy guitars, and there are customers with terrible taste. This is one tasty axe.
> 
> Contrats man! I should be placing my order this week.


Thanks man! What are you ordering?


----------



## Glades

Albake21 said:


> Thanks man! What are you ordering?



I just ordered today. Solo 7x, rawtone alder trans black, ebony board, unpainted maple headstock, black hardware and logo. Will probably look a lot like a 7 string jim root tele. Kept it below $1.5k.


----------



## Albake21

Glades said:


> I just ordered today. Solo 7x, rawtone alder trans black, ebony board, unpainted maple headstock, black hardware and logo. Will probably look a lot like a 7 string jim root tele. Kept it below $1.5k.


Sounds awesome! Can't wait to see how that turns out.


----------



## spudmunkey

Don't see the raw tone finish on alder very often. I do dig the trans black, though. The wood character underneath it may not show much unless you're in bright-ish light (if it's as dark as it used to be), but it will look killer when it does!


----------



## MatiasTolkki

I really dont like the Raw tone finish. Without some sort of top coat, it takes damage too easily and ruins the finish in the long run.


----------



## DudeManBrother

MatiasTolkki said:


> I really dont like the Raw tone finish. Without some sort of top coat, it takes damage too easily and ruins the finish in the long run.


I think that’s actually the appeal to the guys that buy it. It’s cool to have a guitar that looks worn out without resorting to throwing a hammer at it and sanding the finish down. It’s like a turbo relic.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

DudeManBrother said:


> I think that’s actually the appeal to the guys that buy it. It’s cool to have a guitar that looks worn out without resorting to throwing a hammer at it and sanding the finish down. It’s like a turbo relic.



I am not a fan of relic'd guitars so it's definitely not for me. I think Jeff's blathering about how it improves "tone" is a bunch of horseshit too.


----------



## Cynicanal

In fairness, Jeff didn't come up with the "thin finish for tone" thing; on a lot of sites, people used to say "Carvins sound bad because they have really thick finishes!", and the Raw Tone thing always seemed to me to be a direct reaction to that.


----------



## DudeManBrother

MatiasTolkki said:


> I am not a fan of relic'd guitars so it's definitely not for me. I think Jeff's blathering about how it improves "tone" is a bunch of horseshit too.


Yeah I don’t buy into the tone improvement thing either. I also would not intentionally smash my guitar; but I certainly don’t mind the natural dings and shit that come with playing a guitar for years and years. The raw tone seems like those natural rub spots etc would happen a lot faster. Not for everyone obviously, but I get it is all.


----------



## Hollowway

Cynicanal said:


> In fairness, Jeff didn't come up with the "thin finish for tone" thing; on a lot of sites, people used to say "Carvins sound bad because they have really thick finishes!", and the Raw Tone thing always seemed to me to be a direct reaction to that.



Well, that's a great response to that. People will come up with some pretty idiotic things to say, with zero proof, so I can imagine the Carvin guys saying, "You know what? Fuck 'em. If they think paint ruins tone, let's come out with a flakey, super thin paint coat that looks like ass after 3 months, and they can go on thinking the Emperor has new clothes."


----------



## Glades

MatiasTolkki said:


> I really dont like the Raw tone finish. Without some sort of top coat, it takes damage too easily and ruins the finish in the long run.



I am not a fan of the rawtone finish on swamp ash, it looks a bit too aggressive to me. But I do like the rawtone on Alder. It is a lot more consistent and mild than the ash variety. 

Here is an Alder rawtone with trans finish.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BmWpnVIgdvW/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Glades said:


> I am not a fan of the rawtone finish on swamp ash, it looks a bit too aggressive to me. But I do like the rawtone on Alder. It is a lot more consistent and mild than the ash variety.
> 
> Here is an Alder rawtone with trans finish.
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BmWpnVIgdvW/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet



I personally dont like it because i dont want to set my guitar down and I get an instant relic'd guitar. Give me a full on gloss finish over a wild color and i'm perfectly happy.


----------



## Albake21

I've had my raw tone for a while.... still looks exactly the same as it did from the factory. I'm not sure where you guys are getting that it relics quickly.


----------



## Glades

Albake21 said:


> I've had my raw tone for a while.... still looks exactly the same as it did from the factory. I'm not sure where you guys are getting that it relics quickly.



Also, thick poly gloss finishes do scratch and when they do chip, they usually chip big chunks. The thinner the finish, the smaller and less noticeable the chip.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

That’s why I have _*no*_ finish on my guitars: Nothing to worry about!


----------



## spudmunkey

This is damn near my perfect bass. I wish it were gloss and that the stain were a aliiiiittle darker, and I wish the dots were still offset but not staggered. Other than that...pretty much perfection of what I would want in a bass (note: I'm a guitar player, but always loved jazz bases, and while I have no need for a multiscale, I think they just look cool.) I don't even hate this headstock on basses, and I might have done a 3-piece neck rather than the 3-piece...but it's the right woods. I'm also digging the one-piece ash body (like I have on my Aries).


----------



## KnightBrolaire

thorium sounds interesting, a lot fuller than the lithium


----------



## MatiasTolkki

KnightBrolaire said:


> thorium sounds interesting, a lot fuller than the lithium




Doesn't help me when I dont play ERGs nor do I care for periphery or that modern metal djent garbage.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

@MatiasTookis Djent demos exist only to part fools from their money. Let us not dignify such an ad in the course of pretending it is for anyone else.


----------



## Glades

MatiasTolkki said:


> Doesn't help me when I dont play ERGs nor do I care for periphery or that modern metal djent garbage.



dude why are you so rude.


----------



## USMarine75

MatiasTolkki said:


> Doesn't help me when I dont play ERGs nor do I care for periphery or that modern metal djent garbage.



Why are you here? 

Having an Invective on preorder is a requirement for membership.


----------



## Cynicanal

...I don't play ERGs or like djent either...

(I'm here because I tune down to BEADF#B, and ERG guys are knowledgeable about the struggle of keeping that B usable.)


----------



## bracky

Glades said:


> dude why are you so rude.



It’s his nature.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Glades said:


> dude why are you so rude.



Because I am tired of people demoing shit that doesnt help me in ANY way possible? Every goddamn review of pups is always catered to the modern djent garbage crowd, an entire genre I wish would fall off the earth.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

...What site do you think you’re on?


----------



## Glades

MatiasTolkki said:


> Because I am tired of people demoing shit that doesnt help me in ANY way possible? Every goddamn review of pups is always catered to the modern djent garbage crowd, an entire genre I wish would fall off the earth.



Musical taste is completely subjective. What you like might be "garbage" to other people. Also, nobody owes you anything cupcake. If you don't like the reviews by other people, don't watch them.


----------



## FitRocker33

MatiasTolkki said:


> Because I am tired of people demoing shit that doesnt help me in ANY way possible? Every goddamn review of pups is always catered to the modern djent garbage crowd, an entire genre I wish would fall off the earth.



Normally I wouldn’t pay much mind to what he says but even I must admit it IS getting to point of over saturation with unoriginal djent riffs and boring songs. 

It reminds me quite a bit of my high school days when nu-metal was the flavor of the year and everywhere you turned was a coal chamber, a Kittie, a Disturbed, an Orgy, a mushroomhead, etc

Mesh tops, eyeliner, JNCO jeans and studded bracelets as far as the eye could see!


I think a new style of metal where you take the best elements of thrash, metalcore and djent would be kinda cool.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

FitRocker33 said:


> Normally I wouldn’t pay much mind to what he says but even I must admit it IS getting to point of over saturation with unoriginal djent riffs and boring songs.
> 
> It reminds me quite a bit of my high school days when nu-metal was the flavor of the year and everywhere you turned was a coal chamber, a Kittie, a Disturbed, an Orgy, a mushroomhead, etc
> 
> Mesh tops, eyeliner, JNCO jeans and studded bracelets as far as the eye could see!
> 
> 
> I think a new style of metal where you take the best elements of thrash, metalcore and djent would be kinda cool.



I think people need to make reviews that cater to all genres. That way, everyone can get a benefit from it. This is why I complain about ALL of these damn reviewers, Glenn Fricker, Fluff, Jared Dines (even though I absolutely despise him), all of them do the same crap, give no real input on the other styles of music out there, just high gain chuggy chuggy crap. This is why metal sucks nowadays, the modern stuff is all written the same way, using the same gear, same everything and there is ZERO input from the blues. I'd like to see any of those chuggers do a goddamn blues demo of pickups and that will tell me the kind of chops they REALLY have.


----------



## narad

MatiasTolkki said:


> I think people need to make reviews that cater to all genres. That way, everyone can get a benefit from it. This is why I complain about ALL of these damn reviewers, Glenn Fricker, Fluff, Jared Dines (even though I absolutely despise him), all of them do the same crap, give no real input on the other styles of music out there, just high gain chuggy chuggy crap. This is why metal sucks nowadays, the modern stuff is all written the same way, using the same gear, same everything and there is ZERO input from the blues. I'd like to see any of those chuggers do a goddamn blues demo of pickups and that will tell me the kind of chops they REALLY have.



Revocation? Black Dahlia Murder has a lot of blues influence too tucked in there.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

MatiasTolkki said:


> I think people need to make reviews that cater to all genres. That way, everyone can get a benefit from it. This is why I complain about ALL of these damn reviewers, Glenn Fricker, Fluff, Jared Dines (even though I absolutely despise him), all of them do the same crap, give no real input on the other styles of music out there, just high gain chuggy chuggy crap. This is why metal sucks nowadays, the modern stuff is all written the same way, using the same gear, same everything and there is ZERO input from the blues. I'd like to see any of those chuggers do a goddamn blues demo of pickups and that will tell me the kind of chops they REALLY have.


so what you're saying is you want more dad rock demos....


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Brian may and Andy timmons are better than Jake Bowen, Javier Reyes, tosin abasi or any of those wankers that have come out in the last 10 years.


----------



## narad

MatiasTolkki said:


> Brian may and Andy timmons are better than Jake Bowen, Javier Reyes, tosin abasi or any of those wankers that have come out in the last 10 years.



And for those tones I would not recommend the Kiesel fanned-fret 7-string hard tail w/ Thorium pickups. When all the Vox AC30hw60 and lonestar demos on youtube are all djent, I'll understand your point.


----------



## xzacx

MatiasTolkki said:


> Brian may and Andy timmons are better than Jake Bowen, Javier Reyes, tosin abasi or any of those wankers that have come out in the last 10 years.



I'm a big Queen fan, and I don't care for anything that could remotely be considered djent, but I won't hesitate in saying that those guys are selling a heck of a lot more guitars than Brian May is these days.


----------



## Albake21

If it's in demand, you will see more of it.... I don't really understand your point here. Just because you want to see other stuff, doesn't mean the majority does. There's a reason why these "djent" guys are so popular and why they sell a lot of gear. Complain all you want, but it's selling for a reason. Go back to your Dad rock and just enjoy the music that makes you happy.


----------



## wannabguitarist

MatiasTolkki said:


> ...there is ZERO input from the blues. I'd like to see any of those chuggers do a goddamn blues demo of pickups and that will tell me the kind of chops they REALLY have.



Forget your Metamucil today?


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> I think people need to make reviews that cater to all genres. That way, everyone can get a benefit from it. This is why I complain about ALL of these damn reviewers, Glenn Fricker, Fluff, Jared Dines (even though I absolutely despise him), all of them do the same crap, give no real input on the other styles of music out there, just high gain chuggy chuggy crap. This is why metal sucks nowadays, the modern stuff is all written the same way, using the same gear, same everything and there is ZERO input from the blues. I'd like to see any of those chuggers do a goddamn blues demo of pickups and that will tell me the kind of chops they REALLY have.



What? Sorry, but no. Lots of the demos online are non-sponsored content. Like..I made an unboxing video of my last guitar. If I take time out of my day and do what is essentially free marketing for a company, I'm going to do it my way. In terms of sponsored content why would you go to Fluff, Jared, Ola, etc for blues stuff? Would you ask Arnold to review a new Jackson by playing moonlight Sonata to cover the classical fans? Of course not, because it's not his niche, and nobody is going to him for that. Shouldn't your feedback be directed at the companies' marketing departments instead to produce more varied content? That said, perhaps Japan is a different marketscape, but what I've seen in the US, the blues guys are the absolute most die-hard traditionalists around. If you're not playing a Fender P bass, you are pretty much considered a rock/metal/jazz bass player posing as a blues bassist.


----------



## wannabguitarist

I dunno if Dance Gavin Dance is well liked around here, but it looks like Kiesel picked up Will Swan recently:


Absolutely fantastic post-hardcore band. Funky, fun, sometimes shreddy. Also not djent


----------



## KnightBrolaire

wannabguitarist said:


> I dunno if Dance Gavin Dance is well liked around here, but it looks like Kiesel picked up Will Swan recently:
> 
> 
> Absolutely fantastic post-hardcore band. Funky, fun, sometimes shreddy. Also not djent



never really got into their music but he has some really cool riffs.


----------



## Albake21

KnightBrolaire said:


> never really got into their music but he has some really cool riffs.


That's exactly how I feel about them. I really respect them as players, but I just never got into them. Too poppy for me.


----------



## FitRocker33

MatiasTolkki said:


> Brian may and Andy timmons are better than Jake Bowen, Javier Reyes, tosin abasi or any of those wankers that have come out in the last 10 years.



Whoa hey in all fairness, Tosin is extremely talented and borrows influences from multiple genres. I fell out of interest with AAL’s music a few years ago but I definitely dig some of the earlier stuff.


As nice as Fluff seems, his reviews are mostly terrible sounding and I don’t really dig his riffs either.

Jared dines has some funny vids but I hardly consider him a good gear reviewer.

Ola’s clips are good but he seems to make some gear sound way better than it does in person. 

Has anybody checked out the English old maid librarian metalhead aka joss Allen? His clips are pretty good but he looks like the church lady that Dana carvey used to play on SNL


----------



## spudmunkey

He was the one that used to be with Andertons, and now is full-time Gear Bros Demos, right? I think you'll trigger Mathias when he see who he's endorsed by.


----------



## Glades

MatiasTolkki said:


> Brian may and Andy timmons are better than Jake Bowen, Javier Reyes, tosin abasi or any of those wankers that have come out in the last 10 years.



Troll is obvious.


----------



## cip 123

Anyone notice a striking similarity in the way MatiasTolkki talks and the way Jeff Kiesel talks?


----------



## Glades

cip 123 said:


> Anyone notice a striking similarity in the way MatiasTolkki talks and the way Jeff Kiesel talks?



My guess is that Matias is a teenager or an internet troll (or both). I can't say I have ever heard an adult say that one guitar player is "better" than another guitar player. That's absurd.


----------



## DudeManBrother

spudmunkey said:


> He was the one that used to be with Andertons, and now is full-time Gear Bros Demos, right? I think you'll trigger Mathias when he see who he's endorsed by.


Unrelated slightly, but that Friedman JJ100 is a seriously bad ass amp. I like that new green Zeus too.


----------



## narad

Glades said:


> My guess is that Matias is a teenager or an internet troll (or both). I can't say I have ever heard an adult say that one guitar player is "better" than another guitar player. That's absurd.



You haven't been to Rig-Talk apparently.


----------



## Glades

I ordered my Kiesel on September 12. I just got the Fedex Tracking that the order has shipped and it will arrive this Friday, October 12.

The guitar was completed in 4 weeks. Very impressive turn-around time for a custom instrument.


----------



## Albake21

I keep seeing this, congrats!


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Glades said:


> My guess is that Matias is a teenager or an internet troll (or both). I can't say I have ever heard an adult say that one guitar player is "better" than another guitar player. That's absurd.



Teenager? What a fucking crock. How could I live in Japan for 12 years if I was a teenager? Now you're just being an idiot.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> What? Sorry, but no. Lots of the demos online are non-sponsored content. Like..I made an unboxing video of my last guitar. If I take time out of my day and do what is essentially free marketing for a company, I'm going to do it my way. In terms of sponsored content why would you go to Fluff, Jared, Ola, etc for blues stuff? Would you ask Arnold to review a new Jackson by playing moonlight Sonata to cover the classical fans? Of course not, because it's not his niche, and nobody is going to him for that. Shouldn't your feedback be directed at the companies' marketing departments instead to produce more varied content? That said, perhaps Japan is a different marketscape, but what I've seen in the US, the blues guys are the absolute most die-hard traditionalists around. If you're not playing a Fender P bass, you are pretty much considered a rock/metal/jazz bass player posing as a blues bassist.



1. There arent the number of reviewers here that there are in the US.

2. Guitar shops basically push people into buying certain makers based on business relationships, i.e. if a newbie wants to start playing and they go to Shimamura gakki, they will push that person into buying a Cool Z guitar, as that is Shimamura's in house brand that they have Fujigen make for them. If you walk into a Big Boss shop, you'll be pushed to ESP, etc.

3. The blues guys in Japan are just as paranoid about the guitar you use (they just dont say anything about it). I've gone to blues sessions here where they didnt actually say anything but they did give me a funny eye for using my JB200 or an Ibanez, and I've seen a young kid there before who brought in a schechter 7 string. 

4. There is a bigger audience out there and people demoing the way they do, with zero other recourse (because no one wants to play "dad rock" as it was called) they should be a little more accommodating to a wider audience. I guess that point was lost on you.


----------



## Cynicanal

MatiasTolkki said:


> I think people need to make reviews that cater to all genres. That way, everyone can get a benefit from it. This is why I complain about ALL of these damn reviewers, Glenn Fricker, Fluff, Jared Dines (even though I absolutely despise him), all of them do the same crap, give no real input on the other styles of music out there, just high gain chuggy chuggy crap.



"Chuggy high gain" stuff here, yep.


----------



## wannabguitarist

MatiasTolkki said:


> Teenager? What a fucking crock. How could I live in Japan for 12 years if I was a teenager? Now you're just being an idiot.



If you moved to Japan when you were two then you'd be 14 right now. That's a teenager


----------



## cip 123

MatiasTolkki said:


> Teenager? What a fucking crock. How could I live in Japan for 12 years if I was a teenager? Now you're just being an idiot.



Like seriously are you actually Jeff Kiesel?


----------



## Albake21

cip 123 said:


> Like seriously are you actually Jeff Kiesel?


Best plot twist ever.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

When I demoed all the pickups in my shootout thread I tried to incorporate different genres/sounds, but that was more because I wanted to see how versatile the pickups are. Some people flamed me on YT for that, since ZOMG UR NOT PLAYING DJ000NT WITH THE PRECISION DRIVE AND RAGNAROKS/M6. Seriously, I had people whine that I didn't play meshuggah with the m6, or periphery with the ragnaroks. If they wanted to hear that, they could have watched any number of demos doing exactly that.. That's why I don't understand matias' obsession with wanting metal demos to have blues in them. The overwhelming majority of product demos end up being blues and dad rock demos..
Expecting people to play blues in mostly metal centric demos is the equivalent of expecting Joe Bonamassa to start a death metal band. It's probably never going to happen, and if it does, it won't be good.


----------



## spudmunkey

Glades said:


> I ordered my Kiesel on September 12. I just got the Fedex Tracking that the order has shipped and it will arrive this Friday, October 12.
> 
> The guitar was completed in 4 weeks. Very impressive turn-around time for a custom instrument.



Bolt on with a tung neck and...perhaps raw tone finish? Those seem to be the ones finishing the quickest. Someone else on the BBS _received_ theirs in 4 weeks. It was a raw-tone-finished Zeus (bolt on headless) with a tung oil neck, and one-piece maple neck and ash body...likely the quickest combination of options available except maybe also a tung oil body.


----------



## Glades

spudmunkey said:


> Bolt on with a tung neck and...perhaps raw tone finish? Those seem to be the ones finishing the quickest. Someone else on the BBS _received_ theirs in 4 weeks. It was a raw-tone-finished Zeus (bolt on headless) with a tung oil neck, and one-piece maple neck and ash body...likely the quickest combination of options available except maybe also a tung oil body.



Yes. Alder body, rawtone finish, maple neck.

They probably have a bunch of these already fabbed out in stock.


----------



## Glades

I got it today. Plays beautifully and sounds great. It smells terrible though. I am not loving how it looks, but not to Kiesel's fault. The trans black looks brown, and the ebony board is also very brown and has a light patch in a weird spot. I might end up dying the fretboard black and getting the body refinished. But the guitar is great! Sounds massive.


----------



## Albake21

Glades said:


> I got it today. Plays beautifully and sounds great. It smells terrible though. I am not loving how it looks, but not to Kiesel's fault. The trans black looks brown, and the ebony board is also very brown and has a light patch in a weird spot. I might end up dying the fretboard black and getting the body refinished. But the guitar is great! Sounds massive.


Pics?


----------



## crankyrayhanky

Pics!!


----------



## Glades




----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Glades said:


>


Wow, a killer looking guitar for a change. Kiesel logo? I call shenanigans!


----------



## juka

spudmunkey said:


> Bolt on with a tung neck and...perhaps raw tone finish? Those seem to be the ones finishing the quickest. Someone else on the BBS _received_ theirs in 4 weeks. It was a raw-tone-finished Zeus (bolt on headless) with a tung oil neck, and one-piece maple neck and ash body...likely the quickest combination of options available except maybe also a tung oil body.



Yepp, that was mine http://sevenstring.org/threads/ngd-kiesel-zeus-7.332198/



Glades said:


> I got it today. Plays beautifully and sounds great. It smells terrible though. I am not loving how it looks, but not to Kiesel's fault. The trans black looks brown, and the ebony board is also very brown and has a light patch in a weird spot. I might end up dying the fretboard black and getting the body refinished. But the guitar is great! Sounds massive.



At least on your pic both finish and fretboard look as black as can be. Mine is a little bit more streaked, but I didn't choose the "deep black uniform ebony" option/upcharge either.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Glades said:


>



That actually looks pretty nice.

I even dig the natural headstock, which is rare for me. 

I'd take this over all the meme'd out Kiesels we're all used to seeing.


----------



## Albake21

Glades said:


>


That's pretty damn nice! I really like it, especially how simple it is.


----------



## Jonathan20022

MatiasTolkki said:


> 4. There is a bigger audience out there and people demoing the way they do, with zero other recourse (because no one wants to play "dad rock" as it was called) they should be a little more accommodating to a wider audience. I guess that point was lost on you.



Your latest rant is extremely annoying to read, you're completely out of your mind if you expect random people playing guitars they paid for themselves to make demos catering to your specific tastes.

You're clearly not a teenager, but your behavior mirrors it pretty accurately. And being well past that age bracket makes this whole thing a little more than embarrassing.

If you want reviews where people will sit there and play blues for several minutes while switching between pickup sounds. Then this guy is more your speed, try looking a teensy bit harder and maybe in the right community for content you want instead of going to the community grounded in ERGs and Metal with those demands. There are other places you can whine for everyone to throw in a few blues licks so you can gauge how much of an impact alder has on that rock maple neck when in the 4th position of a Strat. Next you'll start asking people to order their custom guitars with specs you like so they can demo that for you with their order instead


----------



## Glades

I am gonna do a pickguard for it.

I am so insanely surprised how good this guitar sounds. I really dont get where the hate for the lithiums comes from. It sounds so huge and tight. I am so blown away.

I have been AB'ing it next to my S6527 with BKPs, and the ibanez (which I have been enamored with and been my main for a year) sounds mushy compared to the kiesel.


----------



## crankyrayhanky

Glades said:


> I am gonna do a pickguard for it.
> 
> I am so insanely surprised how good this guitar sounds. I really dont get where the hate for the lithiums comes from. It sounds so huge and tight. I am so blown away.
> 
> I have been AB'ing it next to my S6527 with BKPs, and the ibanez (which I have been enamored with and been my main for a year) sounds mushy compared to the kiesel.



That looks great as-is!
I like the Lithiums too...it may depend on the wood ( I have Mahogany). I could see it being ice picky with a brighter wood


----------



## Jonathan20022

As much disdain as I have for Kiesel as a brand, I never had issues with the Lithiums in any way. I spec'd around the feedback everyone had of it being shrill and very bright by ordering darker sounding woods and of course changing my amp's eq to pair well with them. But I enjoyed the Lithiums I had.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

I really enjoyed the lithiums in my 8 strings but couldn't stand them in my dc600. That particular guitar sounds pretty bright and every pickup I've had in it besides my current combo of the holy diver/elysian javelin sounded very shrill on the high end. The lithiums were horrendously shril in the dc600, same with the painkillers and black winter set I had in it. I still think the lithiums are a great stock pickup, so long as you account for their brightness with generally darker sounding woods/amp eq/different tone cap values.


----------



## spudmunkey

Taking 


KnightBrolaire said:


> I really enjoyed the lithiums in my 8 strings but couldn't stand them in my dc600.



I'm sure we all know it, but it is worth noting that making the same pickup in multiple string counts isn't as easy as just buying a longer magnet, and doing the same number if winds with just more of the same wire. Each variation is *almost* like designing a new pickup.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

spudmunkey said:


> Taking
> 
> 
> I'm sure we all know it, but it is worth noting that making the same pickup in multiple string counts isn't as easy as just buying a longer magnet, and doing the same number if winds with just more of the same wire. Each variation is *almost* like designing a new pickup.


yep, i have a fair bit of experience with the "same" pickups in different string counts so i understand what you mean. some brands do a better job than others of matching erg pickups to their 6 string brethren.


----------



## Albake21

Okay not gonna lie, I really love this one...


----------



## spudmunkey

Interesting purple take on that blue/aqua Skervesen finish that people keep asking them to do....but I think I prefer the blue, and in gloss.


----------



## FollowTheSigns

cataclysm_child said:


> Could.Not.Be.Happier.With.How.It.Came.Out!
> 
> BUCKEYE BURL MAPLE TOP
> CLEAR SATIN MATTE FINISH
> 3 PIECE LAMINATED BODY
> CHAMBERED BODY
> 5PC MAPLE W/PURPLE HEART S
> ROYAL EBONY FRETBOARD
> STAGGERED OFFSET DOT INLAY
> ACRYLIC BLACK INLAYS
> LUMINLAY SIDE DOTS
> EVO GOLD med-jumbo FRETS
> PICKUP COLOR CREAM
> BLACK LOGO
> EBONY REAR COVER PLATE



Pretty sure I'm going to copy this build... been dreaming of basically this exact guitar haha SO nice.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Albake21 said:


> Okay not gonna lie, I really love this one...



That top is garbage, and the mayones/skerv burst isn't helping it. Kiesel is usually pretty good about using pretty figured burl so seeing that eyesore is sad


----------



## bracky

It looks awesome to me!


----------



## Albake21

KnightBrolaire said:


> That top is garbage, and the mayones/skerv burst isn't helping it. Kiesel is usually pretty good about using pretty figured burl so seeing that eyesore is sad


----------



## Glades

KnightBrolaire said:


> That top is garbage, and the mayones/skerv burst isn't helping it. Kiesel is usually pretty good about using pretty figured burl so seeing that eyesore is sad



Why don't you tell us how you really feel about it?


----------



## technomancer

KnightBrolaire said:


> That top is garbage, and the mayones/skerv burst isn't helping it. Kiesel is usually pretty good about using pretty figured burl so seeing that eyesore is sad



I don't know that I would go that far, but definitely not a high-grade burl top by any definition.

That said it checks a lot of my nope boxes: low grade burl with no fill work done on the burl in a satin finish uneven reverse burst  Don't worry though I'm sure Jeff will soon have a video about 'Merica and how those unnamed Polish companies are taking his ideas...

I do like the color though.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Are we sure this isn't per customer's deep option 50 request? Just asking as these are all one-offs.


----------



## prlgmnr

kinda looks like it has nipples


----------



## Seabeast2000

prlgmnr said:


> kinda looks like it has nipples


The purple nurple option.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Glades said:


> Why don't you tell us how you really feel about it?


>ok.jpg
It's really pathetic figuring. If I was the customer I'd be pissed since that look more like a shit veneer you'd see on an ibanez or some of the kmIII imports.


----------



## fps

spudmunkey said:


> He was the one that used to be with Andertons, and now is full-time Gear Bros Demos, right? I think you'll trigger Mathias when he see who he's endorsed by.


Joss is a really knowledgeable dude, and a heck of a player, produces great demos too!


----------



## fps

KnightBrolaire said:


> >ok.jpg
> It's really pathetic figuring. If I was the customer I'd be pissed since that look more like a shit veneer you'd see on an ibanez or some of the kmIII imports.



Take a break from the internet. Honestly, getting this worked up about somebody else's guitar.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

KnightBrolaire said:


> >ok.jpg
> It's really pathetic figuring. If I was the customer I'd be pissed since that look more like a shit veneer you'd see on an ibanez or some of the kmIII imports.



you're starting to sound like me when it comes to my bashing of Jeff.


----------



## Glades

MatiasTolkki said:


> you're starting to sound like me when it comes to my bashing of Jeff.



Lol that was exactly what I was thinking! 
Maybe Mattias and Bro are one and the same.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Y'all are acting like @KnightBrolaire is talking about your mother and not an ugly guitar.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> Y'all are acting like @KnightBrolaire is talking about your mother and not an ugly guitar.




You shut your mouth, and take that back! My mother IS an ugly guitar!!


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> You shut your mouth, and take that back! My mother IS an ugly guitar!!



I guess that explains your devotion to Kiesel: Oedipus complex.


----------



## FitRocker33

So that’s what people mean when they say a guitar is only ugly mother.


----------



## xzacx

MatiasTolkki said:


> you're starting to sound like me when it comes to my bashing of Jeff.


I really don’t think his reaction was that drastic. Quality of wood is usually the area Kiesel gets the most right, but that and the finish really bring it the worst of each other on this one.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> I guess that explains your devotion to Kiesel: Oedipus complex.


----------



## spudmunkey

KnightBrolaire said:


> >ok.jpg
> It's really pathetic figuring. If I was the customer I'd be pissed since that look more like a shit veneer you'd see on an ibanez or some of the kmIII imports.



Polar burl is generally patchy. If you want more uniform burled wood, you get burled maple.

Here's a Skervesen with burled poplar top:





The dark purple trans paint (not stain/dye) AND the satin clear finish, combined to reduce any contrast the top could have had, aren't doing any favors to it, either.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

spudmunkey said:


> Polar burl is generally patchy. If you want more uniform burled wood, you get burled maple.
> 
> Here's a Skervesen with burled poplar top:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The dark purple trans paint (not stain/dye) AND the satin clear finish, combined to reduce any contrast the top could have had, aren't doing any favors to it, either.


You're correct that had they put some black into the wood before the purple, it would pop a bit more, but the overall figuring is still piss poor compared to other kiesels. burl in general(moreso than other types of figuring) is highly irregular and inconsistent,but as i said in my previous posts, kiesel has consistently put out more figured tops than the skervburst which is part of why I dislike that particular guitar.
other poplar burl tops (from kiesel):
























I could continue with even more pics, but I think you get the point that the skervburst has shit figuring in comparison to other poplar burl tops that kiesel has used.

Glades and FPS can chortle my balls for all I care, the skervburst is not up to par with other kiesels. We're on a gear nerd forum where criticisms like these are common (seriously how many times have we talked about hideous kiesels in this thread?)


----------



## MatiasTolkki

i was just pointing out you're starting to sound like me, not riding your tail about your VERY valid criticism.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

MatiasTolkki said:


> i was just pointing out you're starting to sound like me, not riding your tail about your VERY valid criticism.


you give yourself too much credit. i haven't spent page after page losing my shit over kiesel related stuff, i've merely stated my very strong opinion on certain guitars looking terrible.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

KnightBrolaire said:


> you give yourself too much credit. i haven't spent page after page losing my shit over kiesel related stuff, i've merely stated my very strong opinion on certain guitars looking terrible.



And actually I havent done that for a LOOOOONG time. i've had better things to keep me busy the past couple months.


----------



## Jonathan20022

A few friends of mine were discussing this new run they're offering, and I was linked the announcement video. Jeff hasn't been taking notes apparently.

"So if you've been that guy and gal out there who have been bitching and complaining that we don't offer it, I'm calling you out!"

So cringey and unprofessional, but either way they're making a run to offer different plated hardware? And he's saying it won't be available later on down the line, I'll put money down that it will be


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Jonathan20022 said:


> A few friends of mine were discussing this new run they're offering, and I was linked the announcement video. Jeff hasn't been taking notes apparently.
> 
> "So if you've been that guy and gal out there who have been bitching and complaining that we don't offer it, I'm calling you out!"
> 
> So cringey and unprofessional, but either way they're making a run to offer different plated hardware? And he's saying it won't be available later on down the line, I'll put money down that it will be



And yet people have been demanding an Explorer-type forever and he said "the only way i'll do it is if James Hetfield leaves ESP for us."


----------



## Mathemagician

I mean, most of their “extreme” shapes don’t sell well. Adding an “explorer-like” shape to the lineup so the 6 people a year that buy new Jackson Kelly’s and the very attractive Schecter offerings can order one would probably not be a priority for them.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Mathemagician said:


> I mean, most of their “extreme” shapes don’t sell well. Adding an “explorer-like” shape to the lineup so the 6 people a year that buy new Jackson Kelly’s and the very attractive Schecter offerings can order one would probably not be a priority for them.



Oh no, I dont doubt that they'd sell like crap. I'm just rolling my eyes that Jeff thinks he's silencing all the naysayers about the company.


----------



## Mathemagician

I’ll put it this way, Jeff knows what he’s doing. People from major metro areas with lots of options either like or don’t like thier guitars. But his brand of marketing of the “underdog” with a bit of “us versus them” (them being the big guys) plays very well with a good portion of working class Americans. That’s the pitch isn’t it? “Customs for the rest of us” 

People like feeling special and like they are in some sort of club. And Jeff definitely plays that “us vs. them” up. Including stupid shit like “I’m calling you out” comments which I think someone else called “unprofessional” and I would agree. 

But the people who spend a chunk of thier time on the official FB page eat it up. 

Don’t hate the player hate the game.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Just ordered a Kiesel Osiris yesterday!

I'm super excited to get it, it's going to be a long ten weeks.

Also, just addressing the thread at large, I think that almost everyone that hates Kiesel that hasn't had a directly bad experience with them is silly. Their mistakes have been well documented, to the point of absurdity, and I understand why. You order a guitar for a large sum of money, and you wait for like 2-4 months thinking it's going to be exactly what you imagined in your head, and if one thing is off you're immediately disappointed. That's human nature right there.

Their customer service is not like the service you'll receive at somewhere like Whole Foods, or Amazon. It's not a bunch of people that tell you exactly what you want to hear, when you want to hear it because you're the customer and you're just automatically right. That bothers a lot of people, but it doesn't bother me. I work in retail, as a manager, and now that I'm managing I don't treat people like Kings and Queens anymore. I can't, people always ask for more and they are dicks about it every time, period. My job is to be the guy that the 'you're absolutely right, sir' employees go to when they know the customer is overreaching but they're not allowed to say no, then I am the arbiter of that decision.

Kiesel seems to run more like that, across the entire board. Their rules and terms are very clear on their site, and they apply to the $950 paying customer and the $5,000 paying customer. That bothers a lot of people, but it doesn't bother me. I did my research and ordered exactly what I wanted in a pleasant and excited manner. The representative wasn't thrilled on the phone, but he wasn't a dick either. He was just doing his job, like I do my job, perfectly pleasant but not over the moon that I went for the Ebony upgrade, or whatever. The dude probably sets up 20+ custom orders a day, I don't need him to be as pumped as me and it would be odd to expect him to be. It would be disingenuous.

Instead he was just a dude taking a guitar order, setting up the basic rules and terms and thanking me for my business, no more no less. I like that, I don't want to talk to someone that's forced to be something they're not. That's not a bad thing, that means that his job is safe and he's comfortable, and it's up to me to be the pleasant one and he'll be pleasant back, and vice versa.

Anyways, people expect a lot, and they get really dissapointed at small things when they order expensive instruments. I've never played a Kiesel that I didn't like, and every time I see a Kiesel nightmare thread or post, I'll be honest, even if the gripe is legit the author seems like he handled it like he deserved something more, no matter what. Being someone that works in retail, I know people. You get what you give when there's nothing fake, and Kiesel is not fake. They just tell you like it is, good or bad. Whether it's ''sorry, we took your guitar apart for NAMM" or "you're wrong" when you're wrong, they'll tell you and the owner will back his employee. It's on you to take that as you will, and I bet you if you respond pleasantly they will too, and if you don't they won't. That's how humans are. Again, even if the gripe is legitimate, how you handle it makes all the difference in the world. Ignorance and entitlement make up the world of high end purchases.

Anyways, I'm fucking stoked to get it and I don't know what I'm going to do with myself for the next 10 weeks.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Lord Voldemort said:


> Just ordered a Kiesel Osiris yesterday!
> 
> I'm super excited to get it, it's going to be a long ten weeks.
> 
> Also, just addressing the thread at large, I think that almost everyone that hates Kiesel that hasn't had a directly bad experience with them is silly. Their mistakes have been well documented, to the point of absurdity, and I understand why. You order a guitar for a large sum of money, and you wait for like 2-4 months thinking it's going to be exactly what you imagined in your head, and if one thing is off you're immediately disappointed. That's human nature right there.
> 
> Their customer service is not like the service you'll receive at somewhere like Whole Foods, or Amazon. It's not a bunch of people that tell you exactly what you want to hear, when you want to hear it because you're the customer and you're just automatically right. That bothers a lot of people, but it doesn't bother me. I work in retail, as a manager, and now that I'm managing I don't treat people like Kings and Queens anymore. I can't, people always ask for more and they are dicks about it every time, period. My job is to be the guy that the 'you're absolutely right, sir' employees go to when they know the customer is overreaching but they're not allowed to say no, then I am the arbiter of that decision.
> 
> Kiesel seems to run more like that, across the entire board. Their rules and terms are very clear on their site, and they apply to the $950 paying customer and the $5,000 paying customer. That bothers a lot of people, but it doesn't bother me. I did my research and ordered exactly what I wanted in a pleasant and excited manner. The representative wasn't thrilled on the phone, but he wasn't a dick either. He was just doing his job, like I do my job, perfectly pleasant but not over the moon that I went for the Ebony upgrade, or whatever. The dude probably sets up 20+ custom orders a day, I don't need him to be as pumped as me and it would be odd to expect him to be. It would be disingenuous.
> 
> Instead he was just a dude taking a guitar order, setting up the basic rules and terms and thanking me for my business, no more no less. I like that, I don't want to talk to someone that's forced to be something they're not. That's not a bad thing, that means that his job is safe and he's comfortable, and it's up to me to be the pleasant one and he'll be pleasant back, and vice versa.
> 
> Anyways, people expect a lot, and they get really dissapointed at small things when they order expensive instruments. I've never played a Kiesel that I didn't like, and every time I see a Kiesel nightmare thread or post, I'll be honest, even if the gripe is legit the author seems like he handled it like he deserved something more, no matter what. Being someone that works in retail, I know people. You get what you give when there's nothing fake, and Kiesel is not fake. They just tell you like it is, good or bad. Whether it's ''sorry, we took your guitar apart for NAMM" or "you're wrong" when you're wrong, they'll tell you and the owner will back his employee. It's on you to take that as you will, and I bet you if you respond pleasantly they will too, and if you don't they won't. That's how humans are. Again, even if the gripe is legitimate, how you handle it makes all the difference in the world. Ignorance and entitlement make up the world of high end purchases.
> 
> Anyways, I'm fucking stoked to get it and I don't know what I'm going to do with myself for the next 10 weeks.



Ummm, Just to quickly respond, even though I did plenty of Jeff bashing in the hate thread:

I was SOLIDLY a Carvin fanboy. I loved and still love my JB200. I liked my v220 but it just didnt work for me so I got rid of it. I was disappointed in the bad taping off of the neck and paint chipped in the trem cavity (OFR). My JB200 came with a couple issues of its own but nothing to that extent. As for why I am solidly against ordering from them, even though I'd really dig a JB100 is because I dont want money going to that ass Jeff. His insane bashing of "Asian" guitars, lumping high quality MIJs with indonesian garbage REALLY pissed me off and his whole attitude really annoyed me. How can I support a company when the "face" is a pompous ass and acts like he's special when the company's reason for thriving is because of his dad? That sort of shit is why I dont buy from ESP either. The president of ESP might be a cool dude, I dont know, but in Japan, the way ESP markets their guitars and basically makes it impossible for anyone who goes to MI Japan to look at guitars besides their own is just bullshit business practices. 

I know corporations arent going to always be nice to their customers, I get that. However, you NEVER see Mr. Hoshino bashing other guitar makers or talking up his brand like it's some bastion of greatness. That is part of how I choose what guitars to buy, and acting like that because I havent had any issues with Customer service doesnt give me a right to complain about the company itself is total bullshit.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

MatiasTolkki said:


> Ummm, Just to quickly respond, even though I did plenty of Jeff bashing in the hate thread:
> 
> I was SOLIDLY a Carvin fanboy. I loved and still love my JB200. I liked my v220 but it just didnt work for me so I got rid of it. I was disappointed in the bad taping off of the neck and paint chipped in the trem cavity (OFR). My JB200 came with a couple issues of its own but nothing to that extent. As for why I am solidly against ordering from them, even though I'd really dig a JB100 is because I dont want money going to that ass Jeff. His insane bashing of "Asian" guitars, lumping high quality MIJs with indonesian garbage REALLY pissed me off and his whole attitude really annoyed me. How can I support a company when the "face" is a pompous ass and acts like he's special when the company's reason for thriving is because of his dad? That sort of shit is why I dont buy from ESP either. The president of ESP might be a cool dude, I dont know, but in Japan, the way ESP markets their guitars and basically makes it impossible for anyone who goes to MI Japan to look at guitars besides their own is just bullshit business practices.
> 
> I know corporations arent going to always be nice to their customers, I get that. However, you NEVER see Mr. Hoshino bashing other guitar makers or talking up his brand like it's some bastion of greatness. That is part of how I choose what guitars to buy, and acting like that because I havent had any issues with Customer service doesnt give me a right to complain about the company itself is total bullshit.



It depends on what you're complaining about. You can say you disagree with Jeff on his ideas, of course. I don't really, considering the super thorough precautions and steps he takes with all of his builds and his perfectionist nature, it's not odd at all that he bashes other guitar companies that use shortcuts or cheap labor. Those little things that are almost imperceptible or don't seem to bother a regular consumer are literally facets of his livilhood, and he thinks the way he does it is the best. It's still allowed to bother you of course, but it's objectively understandable. He's also just super proud of his job, family, and innovations that he has made. I've only ever heard him compliment his dad and Grandpa, but whatever, I'm not going to nose into his personal family business.

Regardless, you genuinely seem like the kind of guy I'm talking about if I'm being honest. Lol, mad about a paint chip in a cavity. Jeus Christ who cares?


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Lord Voldemort said:


> It depends on what you're complaining about. You can say you disagree with Jeff on his ideas, of course. I don't really, considering the super thorough precautions and steps he takes with all of his builds and his perfectionist nature, it's not odd at all that he bashes other guitar companies that use shortcuts or cheap labor. Those little things that are almost imperceptible or don't seem to bother a regular consumer are literally facets of his livilhood, and he thinks the way he does it is the best. It's still allowed to bother you of course, but it's objectively understandable. He's also just super proud of his job, family, and innovations that he has made. I've only ever heard him compliment his dad and Grandpa, but whatever, I'm not going to nose into his personal family business.
> 
> Regardless, you genuinely seem like the kind of guy I'm talking about if I'm being honest. Lol, mad about a paint chip in a cavity. Jeus Christ who cares?



If it was a tiny little chip in the cavity, i wouldnt give two shits about it. It was enough of the paint removed that the primer was CLEARLY visible. Same with the bad taping on the neck joint, leaving primer clearly visible on the back of the neck. Not little things dude, ESPECIALLY when Jeff had been claiming for months (at that point) that the QC had improved and there were far less problems than the "Carvin" era. I also have pics somewhere of the issues and I did inform Chris about it.

An example that I dont care about little things:

My JB200 arrived and I had been playing it for a little bit, turned out that some excess paint had dripped into the trem cavity and needed to be sanded down for the OFR to return to zero point. I have never once bitched about that and I still brag about how much I love my JB200, so no, I am NOT anything like the people you are talking about.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

MatiasTolkki said:


> If it was a tiny little chip in the cavity, i wouldnt give two shits about it. It was enough of the paint removed that the primer was CLEARLY visible. Same with the bad taping on the neck joint, leaving primer clearly visible on the back of the neck. Not little things dude, ESPECIALLY when Jeff had been claiming for months (at that point) that the QC had improved and there were far less problems than the "Carvin" era. I also have pics somewhere of the issues and I did inform Chris about it.
> 
> An example that I dont care about little things:
> 
> My JB200 arrived and I had been playing it for a little bit, turned out that some excess paint had dripped into the trem cavity and needed to be sanded down for the OFR to return to zero point. I have never once bitched about that and I still brag about how much I love my JB200, so no, I am NOT anything like the people you are talking about.



Gauging from your previous posting, I'd say you actually are dude, no offense. I doubt you'd know it if you were, to be fair. I can't comment on those specific guitars, I haven't seen them. There's levels to imperfections, and some people take smaller ones and make them seem huge (for example, everything in the cavity is completely irrelevant dude, seriously you can't see it who cares) and there's actual real problems.

Both what you deem acceptable and how you approach gettting that taken care of are both big variables on where you stand on that scale. You've been spitting mad fire at Kiesel based on you just not liking the owner, and seem to have super high standards expressed via hyper-criticism, extreme ebelleshment and you also state objectively opinion based preferences as fact, so you just all across the board seem like the kinda guy I'm talking about.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Lord Voldemort said:


> Gauging from your previous posting, I'd say you actually are dude, no offense. I doubt you'd know it if you were, to be fair. I can't comment on those specific guitars, I haven't seen them. There's levels to imperfections, and some people take smaller ones and make them seem huge (for example, everything in the cavity is completely irrelevant dude, seriously you can't see it who cares) and there's actual real problems.
> 
> Both what you deem acceptable and how you approach gettting that taken care of are both big variables on where you stand on that scale. You've been spitting mad fire at Kiesel based on you just not liking the owner, and seem to have super high standards expressed via hyper-criticism, extreme ebelleshment and you also state objectively opinion based preferences as fact, so you just all across the board seem like the kinda guy I'm talking about.



I'm not getting dragged back into this. I said my peace, and I am not the kind of person you are talking about so just leave it at that. I am done dredging up old shit.


----------



## Hollowway

Lord Voldemort said:


> Just ordered a Kiesel Osiris yesterday!
> 
> I'm super excited to get it, it's going to be a long ten weeks.
> 
> Also, just addressing the thread at large, I think that almost everyone that hates Kiesel that hasn't had a directly bad experience with them is silly. Their mistakes have been well documented, to the point of absurdity, and I understand why. You order a guitar for a large sum of money, and you wait for like 2-4 months thinking it's going to be exactly what you imagined in your head, and if one thing is off you're immediately disappointed. That's human nature right there.
> 
> Their customer service is not like the service you'll receive at somewhere like Whole Foods, or Amazon. It's not a bunch of people that tell you exactly what you want to hear, when you want to hear it because you're the customer and you're just automatically right. That bothers a lot of people, but it doesn't bother me. I work in retail, as a manager, and now that I'm managing I don't treat people like Kings and Queens anymore. I can't, people always ask for more and they are dicks about it every time, period. My job is to be the guy that the 'you're absolutely right, sir' employees go to when they know the customer is overreaching but they're not allowed to say no, then I am the arbiter of that decision.
> 
> Kiesel seems to run more like that, across the entire board. Their rules and terms are very clear on their site, and they apply to the $950 paying customer and the $5,000 paying customer. That bothers a lot of people, but it doesn't bother me. I did my research and ordered exactly what I wanted in a pleasant and excited manner. The representative wasn't thrilled on the phone, but he wasn't a dick either. He was just doing his job, like I do my job, perfectly pleasant but not over the moon that I went for the Ebony upgrade, or whatever. The dude probably sets up 20+ custom orders a day, I don't need him to be as pumped as me and it would be odd to expect him to be. It would be disingenuous.
> 
> Instead he was just a dude taking a guitar order, setting up the basic rules and terms and thanking me for my business, no more no less. I like that, I don't want to talk to someone that's forced to be something they're not. That's not a bad thing, that means that his job is safe and he's comfortable, and it's up to me to be the pleasant one and he'll be pleasant back, and vice versa.
> 
> Anyways, people expect a lot, and they get really dissapointed at small things when they order expensive instruments. I've never played a Kiesel that I didn't like, and every time I see a Kiesel nightmare thread or post, I'll be honest, even if the gripe is legit the author seems like he handled it like he deserved something more, no matter what. Being someone that works in retail, I know people. You get what you give when there's nothing fake, and Kiesel is not fake. They just tell you like it is, good or bad. Whether it's ''sorry, we took your guitar apart for NAMM" or "you're wrong" when you're wrong, they'll tell you and the owner will back his employee. It's on you to take that as you will, and I bet you if you respond pleasantly they will too, and if you don't they won't. That's how humans are. Again, even if the gripe is legitimate, how you handle it makes all the difference in the world. Ignorance and entitlement make up the world of high end purchases.
> 
> Anyways, I'm fucking stoked to get it and I don't know what I'm going to do with myself for the next 10 weeks.



TL;DR, I am in customer service, and I deliver shitty customer service, because I’m right and everyone else is wrong. Big, successful, “the customer is always right” companies like Apple, Starbucks, and Costco have it all wrong. And I’ve never had a Kiesel problem, but let me mansplain yours to you: anyone who has a problem with Kiesel is probably the one who is at fault, because if you were nicer your guitar wouldn’t have been delivered with the wrong specs. And sales people shouldn’t be excited about making sales, because their job is to just answer the phone.
Got it. Thanks for explaining it, man!


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Hollowway said:


> TL;DR, I am in customer service, and I deliver shitty customer service, because I’m right and everyone else is wrong. Big, successful, “the customer is always right” companies like Apple, Starbucks, and Costco have it all wrong. And I’ve never had a Kiesel problem, but let me mansplain yours to you: anyone who has a problem with Kiesel is probably the one who is at fault, because if you were nicer your guitar wouldn’t have been delivered with the wrong specs. And sales people shouldn’t be excited about making sales, because their job is to just answer the phone.
> Got it. Thanks for explaining it, man!



I don't think I've read a more ebellished and snide reaction to something I've said in years. That was absolutely hilarious, the amount of detailed synapses you've chosen specifically to simplify yet exaggerate all at the aim to make me look stupid and eliminate any grey area is amazing, yet I feel that your brain may just naturally work that way, which must really be a far sadder reality that you're unable to escape, and I'd be further fascinated to have your simplified inferrence on that as well to determine that.

You've immediately inferred from what I said that my customer service is bad, at the popular customer service business that has 5 stars on Yelp with hundreds of votes and has thrice promoted me to be in charge of a huge sum of employees that deal in customer service, literally deal with the most comicated issues in customer service that strictly affect profits, and that in that same line of work, I'm always right when dealing with said issues! That's about as an extreme way to interpret what I said as is literally possible, and it's about as wrong as taking anything as far in a direction you can tends to be. That's about the equivalent of my daughter telling me that not giving her candy is starving her. You could not be more hypersensitive in a reaction to something than you were in your initial comment. And we're only two sentences in!

You then compared a boutique, high end custom guitar company to global food service stores and a computer company, the former that sells products such as bananas and cups of coffee for less than $2 and the latter that makes electronics in China with slave labor.

You literally could not choose different models of business if you tried; the only thing Kiesel and Costco have in common, literally, is Capitalism. Since you're clearly developmentally disabled, when you work at Apple and are worth 4.6 BILLION dollars, while selling a product with an overhead of $100 in combined labor and parts for $12-1800, you can absolutely afford to give customers quite literally whatever they want, all the time. A customer could call in and irrationally say that he got mad at a pop up, smashed his computer and demand a new one and you could give him 100 without even noticing on your taxes. Kiesel makes guitars as cheap as Korean imports, using American workers and extra thorough processes that Apple couldn't even imagine, for a very comparably small clientele that come in a 'customize my product and build it from scratch, every single time's manner. Literally, completely 100% literally different business models. That's like comparing beef Jerkey to grape juice, just because it's food doesn't mean it has anything in common. Literally, the most illogical analogy I've ever heard, hastily concocted and snidely presented by a child.

If you have a problem with any product made by a business like Kiesel, you can't call them like you call McDonalds because you're not getting french fries. If there is a problem with your instrument that is reasonable, which happens and is fixed on a daily basis at Kiesel and is extremely rarely a problem, the 3 people making threads like 'I wanted a flame maple finish and I'm mad because they could do it with the Burl maple I chose' and ''I didn't know there were no refunds on my model and I didn't no the return policy was ten days even though it's literally stated on the website in multiple places and thoroughly explained by the salesmen' and then not having that fixed are obnoxious. A small custom business is genuinely better off avoiding people that fuck up their own order and cry about it for years on forums entirely. American custom guitars are expensive, if you haven't noticed, it costs a lot to make a whole new one because your customer didn't do any research before dropping over a thousand dollars on your product.

If you have a technical mistake and you can't get that sorted, that's fine. That's really Kiesel's fault, and they should fix it, and there are far more stories about Kiesel simply repairing their products than refusing to. Generally the ones about a product not being repaired involves a series of phone calls told from one person's perspective, incidentally the person that feels victimized, and ends with the call person 'being a real jerk!' and them being banned from ordering. Since that's happened like 30 times in tens of thousands of orders, sorry bud it's absolutely safe to assume it's them being difficult.

Oh, and one can be mild mannered on the phone, not just super excited or a complete dick, that's a false dichotomy logical fallacy, and the fact that they work on the phone is purely coincidental, the point I was illustrating is that it's ultimately people working, and they're not going to be as excited as someone making a 1k+ purchase on a once in a lifetime guitar. I also incidentally said that they're real, down to earth and pleasant, but have the ability to conduct themselves how they see fit if someone gets nasty with them, which is a human right.

You are EXACTLY what I'm talking about, and you really need to get a retail job and see the world. Holy shit .


----------



## bracky

Well said brother.


----------



## xzacx

Lord Voldemort said:


> I don't think I've read a more ebellished and snide reaction to something I've said in years. That was absolutely hilarious, the amount of detailed synapses you've chosen specifically to simplify yet exaggerate all at the aim to make me look stupid and eliminate any grey area is amazing, yet I feel that your brain may just naturally work that way, which must really be a far sadder reality that you're unable to escape, and I'd be further fascinated to have your simplified inferrence on that as well to determine that.
> 
> You've immediately inferred from what I said that my customer service is bad, at the popular customer service business that has 5 stars on Yelp with hundreds of votes and has thrice promoted me to be in charge of a huge sum of employees that deal in customer service, literally deal with the most comicated issues in customer service that strictly affect profits, and that in that same line of work, I'm always right when dealing with said issues! That's about as an extreme way to interpret what I said as is literally possible, and it's about as wrong as taking anything as far in a direction you can tends to be. That's about the equivalent of my daughter telling me that not giving her candy is starving her. You could not be more hypersensitive in a reaction to something than you were in your initial comment. And we're only two sentences in!
> 
> You then compared a boutique, high end custom guitar company to global food service stores and a computer company, the former that sells products such as bananas and cups of coffee for less than $2 and the latter that makes electronics in China with slave labor.
> 
> You literally could not choose different models of business if you tried; the only thing Kiesel and Costco have in common, literally, is Capitalism. Since you're clearly developmentally disabled, when you work at Apple and are worth 4.6 BILLION dollars, while selling a product with an overhead of $100 in combined labor and parts for $12-1800, you can absolutely afford to give customers quite literally whatever they want, all the time. A customer could call in and irrationally say that he got mad at a pop up, smashed his computer and demand a new one and you could give him 100 without even noticing on your taxes. Kiesel makes guitars as cheap as Korean imports, using American workers and extra thorough processes that Apple couldn't even imagine, for a very comparably small clientele that come in a 'customize my product and build it from scratch, every single time's manner. Literally, completely 100% literally different business models. That's like comparing beef Jerkey to grape juice, just because it's food doesn't mean it has anything in common. Literally, the most illogical analogy I've ever heard, hastily concocted and snidely presented by a child.
> 
> If you have a problem with any product made by a business like Kiesel, you can't call them like you call McDonalds because you're not getting french fries. If there is a problem with your instrument that is reasonable, which happens and is fixed on a daily basis at Kiesel and is extremely rarely a problem, the 3 people making threads like 'I wanted a flame maple finish and I'm mad because they could do it with the Burl maple I chose' and ''I didn't know there were no refunds on my model and I didn't no the return policy was ten days even though it's literally stated on the website in multiple places and thoroughly explained by the salesmen' and then not having that fixed are obnoxious. A small custom business is genuinely better off avoiding people that fuck up their own order and cry about it for years on forums entirely. American custom guitars are expensive, if you haven't noticed, it costs a lot to make a whole new one because your customer didn't do any research before dropping over a thousand dollars on your product.
> 
> If you have a technical mistake and you can't get that sorted, that's fine. That's really Kiesel's fault, and they should fix it, and there are far more stories about Kiesel simply repairing their products than refusing to. Generally the ones about a product not being repaired involves a series of phone calls told from one person's perspective, incidentally the person that feels victimized, and ends with the call person 'being a real jerk!' and them being banned from ordering. Since that's happened like 30 times in tens of thousands of orders, sorry bud it's absolutely safe to assume it's them being difficult.
> 
> Oh, and one can be mild mannered on the phone, not just super excited or a complete dick, that's a false dichotomy logical fallacy, and the fact that they work on the phone is purely coincidental, the point I was illustrating is that it's ultimately people working, and they're not going to be as excited as someone making a 1k+ purchase on a once in a lifetime guitar. I also incidentally said that they're real, down to earth and pleasant, but have the ability to conduct themselves how they see fit if someone gets nasty with them, which is a human right.
> 
> You are EXACTLY what I'm talking about, and you really need to get a retail job and see the world. Holy shit .



@Hollowway we are gonna need the TL;DR version of this when you have a chance. No rush, you can’t be expected to have a free couple hours at our request to break it down.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

First rule of any Kiesel/Carvin thread is to ignore Matias.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

xzacx said:


> @Hollowway we are gonna need the TL;DR version of this when you have a chance. No rush, you can’t be expected to have a free couple hours at our request to break it down.



I know man, reading a couple paragraphs is super hard. What is this, 2nd grade all over again?


----------



## Albake21

Lord Voldemort said:


> I know man, reading a couple paragraphs is super hard. What is this, 2nd grade all over again?


No no no... this is SSO, it's maximum 1st grade.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Albake21 said:


> No no no... this is SSO, it's maximum 1st grade.



Psssssh I wish!

It's fucking daycare up in this bitch.

"Timmy said something mean about my guitar!"


----------



## xzacx

Lord Voldemort said:


> I know man, reading a couple paragraphs is super hard. What is this, 2nd grade all over again?



Dude made a funny observation about the way you came across, and you wrote an eight-paragraph response defending yourself. It's not hard to read a couple paragraphs, I just didn't think it was that serious. I guess that's on-brand though with your style of customer service where you're always right. I just hope your Osiris turns out great and you don't have to find out first hand how Kiesel's is. I wouldn't want to be on either end of that conversation.


----------



## spudmunkey

Lord Voldemort said:


> I don't think I've read a more ebellished and snide reaction to something I've said in years. That was absolutely hilarious, the amount of detailed synapses you've chosen specifically to simplify yet exaggerate all at the aim to make me look stupid and eliminate any grey area is amazing, yet I feel that your brain may just naturally work that way, which must really be a far sadder reality that you're unable to escape, and I'd be further fascinated to have your simplified inferrence on that as well to determine that.
> 
> You've immediately inferred from what I said that my customer service is bad, at the popular customer service business that has 5 stars on Yelp with hundreds of votes and has thrice promoted me to be in charge of a huge sum of employees that deal in customer service, literally deal with the most comicated issues in customer service that strictly affect profits, and that in that same line of work, I'm always right when dealing with said issues! That's about as an extreme way to interpret what I said as is literally possible, and it's about as wrong as taking anything as far in a direction you can tends to be. That's about the equivalent of my daughter telling me that not giving her candy is starving her. You could not be more hypersensitive in a reaction to something than you were in your initial comment. And we're only two sentences in!
> 
> You then compared a boutique, high end custom guitar company to global food service stores and a computer company, the former that sells products such as bananas and cups of coffee for less than $2 and the latter that makes electronics in China with slave labor.
> 
> You literally could not choose different models of business if you tried; the only thing Kiesel and Costco have in common, literally, is Capitalism. Since you're clearly developmentally disabled, when you work at Apple and are worth 4.6 BILLION dollars, while selling a product with an overhead of $100 in combined labor and parts for $12-1800, you can absolutely afford to give customers quite literally whatever they want, all the time. A customer could call in and irrationally say that he got mad at a pop up, smashed his computer and demand a new one and you could give him 100 without even noticing on your taxes. Kiesel makes guitars as cheap as Korean imports, using American workers and extra thorough processes that Apple couldn't even imagine, for a very comparably small clientele that come in a 'customize my product and build it from scratch, every single time's manner. Literally, completely 100% literally different business models. That's like comparing beef Jerkey to grape juice, just because it's food doesn't mean it has anything in common. Literally, the most illogical analogy I've ever heard, hastily concocted and snidely presented by a child.
> 
> If you have a problem with any product made by a business like Kiesel, you can't call them like you call McDonalds because you're not getting french fries. If there is a problem with your instrument that is reasonable, which happens and is fixed on a daily basis at Kiesel and is extremely rarely a problem, the 3 people making threads like 'I wanted a flame maple finish and I'm mad because they could do it with the Burl maple I chose' and ''I didn't know there were no refunds on my model and I didn't no the return policy was ten days even though it's literally stated on the website in multiple places and thoroughly explained by the salesmen' and then not having that fixed are obnoxious. A small custom business is genuinely better off avoiding people that fuck up their own order and cry about it for years on forums entirely. American custom guitars are expensive, if you haven't noticed, it costs a lot to make a whole new one because your customer didn't do any research before dropping over a thousand dollars on your product.
> 
> If you have a technical mistake and you can't get that sorted, that's fine. That's really Kiesel's fault, and they should fix it, and there are far more stories about Kiesel simply repairing their products than refusing to. Generally the ones about a product not being repaired involves a series of phone calls told from one person's perspective, incidentally the person that feels victimized, and ends with the call person 'being a real jerk!' and them being banned from ordering. Since that's happened like 30 times in tens of thousands of orders, sorry bud it's absolutely safe to assume it's them being difficult.
> 
> Oh, and one can be mild mannered on the phone, not just super excited or a complete dick, that's a false dichotomy logical fallacy, and the fact that they work on the phone is purely coincidental, the point I was illustrating is that it's ultimately people working, and they're not going to be as excited as someone making a 1k+ purchase on a once in a lifetime guitar. I also incidentally said that they're real, down to earth and pleasant, but have the ability to conduct themselves how they see fit if someone gets nasty with them, which is a human right.
> 
> You are EXACTLY what I'm talking about, and you really need to get a retail job and see the world. Holy shit .



*embellished
*inference
*complicated
*jerky (unless the cow was named "Jerkey"...in that case you'd be missing two commas)
*McDonald's

"Oh, and one can be mild mannered on the phone and not just super excited or a complete dick. That's a false dichotomy/logical fallacy, and the fact that they work on the phone is purely coincidental. The point I was illustrating is that it's ultimately people working, and they're not going to be as excited as someone making a 1k+ purchase as they might be on a once in a lifetime guitar."

OK, i admit I'm just being an ass...just yankin' yer chain.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

spudmunkey said:


> *embellished
> *inference
> *complicated
> *jerky (unless the cow was named "Jerkey"...in that case you'd be missing two commas)
> *McDonald's
> 
> "Oh, and one can be mild mannered on the phone and not just super excited or a complete dick. That's a false dichotomy/logical fallacy, and the fact that they work on the phone is purely coincidental. The point I was illustrating is that it's ultimately people working, and they're not going to be as excited as someone making a 1k+ purchase as they might be on a once in a lifetime guitar."
> 
> OK, i admit I'm just being an ass...just yankin' yer chain.



Lol, fair enough, though writing 8 paragraphs on a cell phone while pooping at 1:30 on Halloween night is bound to result in some grammatical errors. 

And I'm sorry, just not going to let that guy get away with twisting everything I said into complete extremes, resulting in absolute bullshit, and to truly dive into all his nonsense took a long time, there was a fucking lot of it. It's like a kid kicking a garbage can and running. Everything he said made absolutely zero sense, and I felt compelled to point that out.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Hold up. So this was a bonified shit post? j/K


Lord Voldemort said:


> Lol, fair enough, though writing 8 paragraphs on a cell phone while pooping at 1:30 on Halloween night is bound to result in some grammatical errors.
> .


So a legit shit post? Sorry, no dog in this convo, just had to take that opportunity.


----------



## Jonathan20022

@Lord Voldemort

Riddle me this, in like 2 - 3 months before you get your guitar. And you tune into your good buddy Jeff's radical live streams to say the same stuff he usually does but walk around the factory and pull random guitars to wolf whistle at. You spot your guitar! Oh boy! He called your name! Shows off your guitar and.. oh wait. It's missing the finish you paid for. But it looks fucking rad brother!! What more could you ask for?

You call up your sales guy, and ask him "Hey Chris, I just tuned into a livestream and saw Jeff say my guitar is about to go to get it's hardware installed but it's missing that finish we ordered on my spec sheet, can you look into that for me and confirm?". Chris responds that he'll look into that for you and bring it up to Jeff directly.

Your good old pal Jeff gets on the call, and asks you how you're doing and that it's good to hear from you! You exchange a few words, and then he brings up the issue you're calling about. You know, the missing finish! "Listen brother, I think this guitar looks rad right now and if I recall correctly I was told to have creative freedoms on your build and change things around!". Taken aback, you think back on your DMs with good ol' Jeff Kiesel and say that you don't really recall that but go look to make sure.

Sure enough, you don't find this agreement to let Jeff completely change your specs but still charge you for all your specs since you paid up front of course! You pick your phone back up and tell Jeff to look through your conversations and let him know that this simply never happened. Jeff checks, and begrudgingly concedes that this never actually happened!

But Brother, the guitar has already been cleared and the labor and time involved with getting this guitar back and to the spec you ordered and paid for in the first place would be a bit of a setback for Jeff, so he'd have to pass on the cost of fixing his own mistake and misunderstanding to you for the low low cost of a couple hundred bucks!

That's not too bad you think, but then again this isn't a mistake on your end so why should you have to take on the cost and inconvenience of all this? So you decide to get a little stern with your buddy Jeff and tell him that you're simply not going to pay for a mistake they made and that you'd like them to refinish the guitar on their dime to make it correct. Jeff asks you to hold on for a bit and after some thought he agrees to do it for you, you know because you're part of the family! Not like he just tried to pin a mistake on you and charge you to fix it after he got caught, no way!

Anyways, I'm short on time so I'm not going to patronize you further, I'll just list the rest of the problems that came up. And you let me know what you think.

The Custom 7pc Laminated Neck with woods you requested and sent in a mockup for came completely wrong, but you still paid for the custom laminate neck upcharge. This didn't get fixed because it would not only cost your buddy Jeff too much money, but you'd have to wait on an entirely new instrument.

Your guitar arrives with fretwear on damn near every fret north of the 12th due to what looks like a long tool (Ruler, file, etc) pushed down far enough to dig straight divots into your frets. Your nut is cut too low, so some strings are buzzing when played open. Your guitar has 3 - 4mm dent(*s*) on the body/neck, and scratches all over the body. You send it back to fix all of the issues that are fixable, and the guitar returns fixed but with even more physical damage to the instrument.

So spec mishaps, blame shifting, trying to charge you to fix a mistake, damage and wear, on your brand new kiesel which cost you a couple thousand bucks.

Let's say this happens to you when your build comes up to the competition line and when it arrives. How would you personally handle this specific situation? How would you feel in this spot? You've given them 3 chances to deliver you a functional instrument that matches your order but all you've gotten so far is the direct opposite.

If you want to call my bluff I'll show you literally every photo of this and show you Jeff's direct responses and jabs at me once I asked him for a full refund for this shitshow. This was my K series that I ordered, my 6th Kiesel. You like preaching about this non-suck up Customer Service you appreciate, and downplay a majority of Kiesel's issues to people nitpicking with a microscope. But none of this is true, nor should you praise Jeff for how he handles his business. It favors suckers who choose to ignore negative reviews over having a group of clients who are long term and feel respected and like their money is appreciated in any capacity.

I hope your guitar comes out alright, but God damnit is it getting annoying when people come in here and play dumb when there's a mountain of documented situations that don't make Kiesel as a company look good. Genuinely interested in your response, because it's apparent Jeff's marketing and online presence is working on some number of people still.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Holy shit, @xzacx is going to lose it over how long that post is.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Not gonna lie, it was mostly tongue in cheek until the very end there 

And I didn't even include a tl;dr!


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Just having some fun.


----------



## xzacx

MaxOfMetal said:


> Holy shit, @xzacx is going to lose it over how long that post is.



I read every word of it and found it quite enjoyable (other than the whole Kiesel screwing over Jonathan part).


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Run on sentences and a wall of text. Thanks for attending Lord Goldemort's TEDtalk.


----------



## Albake21

Jonathan20022 said:


> @Lord Voldemort
> 
> Riddle me this, in like 2 - 3 months before you get your guitar. And you tune into your good buddy Jeff's radical live streams to say the same stuff he usually does but walk around the factory and pull random guitars to wolf whistle at. You spot your guitar! Oh boy! He called your name! Shows off your guitar and.. oh wait. It's missing the finish you paid for. But it looks fucking rad brother!! What more could you ask for?
> 
> You call up your sales guy, and ask him "Hey Chris, I just tuned into a livestream and saw Jeff say my guitar is about to go to get it's hardware installed but it's missing that finish we ordered on my spec sheet, can you look into that for me and confirm?". Chris responds that he'll look into that for you and bring it up to Jeff directly.
> 
> Your good old pal Jeff gets on the call, and asks you how you're doing and that it's good to hear from you! You exchange a few words, and then he brings up the issue you're calling about. You know, the missing finish! "Listen brother, I think this guitar looks rad right now and if I recall correctly I was told to have creative freedoms on your build and change things around!". Taken aback, you think back on your DMs with good ol' Jeff Kiesel and say that you don't really recall that but go look to make sure.
> 
> Sure enough, you don't find this agreement to let Jeff completely change your specs but still charge you for all your specs since you paid up front of course! You pick your phone back up and tell Jeff to look through your conversations and let him know that this simply never happened. Jeff checks, and begrudgingly concedes that this never actually happened!
> 
> But Brother, the guitar has already been cleared and the labor and time involved with getting this guitar back and to the spec you ordered and paid for in the first place would be a bit of a setback for Jeff, so he'd have to pass on the cost of fixing his own mistake and misunderstanding to you for the low low cost of a couple hundred bucks!
> 
> That's not too bad you think, but then again this isn't a mistake on your end so why should you have to take on the cost and inconvenience of all this? So you decide to get a little stern with your buddy Jeff and tell him that you're simply not going to pay for a mistake they made and that you'd like them to refinish the guitar on their dime to make it correct. Jeff asks you to hold on for a bit and after some thought he agrees to do it for you, you know because you're part of the family! Not like he just tried to pin a mistake on you and charge you to fix it after he got caught, no way!
> 
> Anyways, I'm short on time so I'm not going to patronize you further, I'll just list the rest of the problems that came up. And you let me know what you think.
> 
> The Custom 7pc Laminated Neck with woods you requested and sent in a mockup for came completely wrong, but you still paid for the custom laminate neck upcharge. This didn't get fixed because it would not only cost your buddy Jeff too much money, but you'd have to wait on an entirely new instrument.
> 
> Your guitar arrives with fretwear on damn near every fret north of the 12th due to what looks like a long tool (Ruler, file, etc) pushed down far enough to dig straight divots into your frets. Your nut is cut too low, so some strings are buzzing when played open. Your guitar has 3 - 4mm dent(*s*) on the body/neck, and scratches all over the body. You send it back to fix all of the issues that are fixable, and the guitar returns fixed but with even more physical damage to the instrument.
> 
> So spec mishaps, blame shifting, trying to charge you to fix a mistake, damage and wear, on your brand new kiesel which cost you a couple thousand bucks.
> 
> Let's say this happens to you when your build comes up to the competition line and when it arrives. How would you personally handle this specific situation? How would you feel in this spot? You've given them 3 chances to deliver you a functional instrument that matches your order but all you've gotten so far is the direct opposite.
> 
> If you want to call my bluff I'll show you literally every photo of this and show you Jeff's direct responses and jabs at me once I asked him for a full refund for this shitshow. This was my K series that I ordered, my 6th Kiesel. You like preaching about this non-suck up Customer Service you appreciate, and downplay a majority of Kiesel's issues to people nitpicking with a microscope. But none of this is true, nor should you praise Jeff for how he handles his business. It favors suckers who choose to ignore negative reviews over having a group of clients who are long term and feel respected and like their money is appreciated in any capacity.
> 
> I hope your guitar comes out alright, but God damnit is it getting annoying when people come in here and play dumb when there's a mountain of documented situations that don't make Kiesel as a company look good. Genuinely interested in your response, because it's apparent Jeff's marketing and online presence is working on some number of people still.


Actually... I do know this very well. This literally happened to me a couple weeks ago. I was in on the Zak run recently and my fretboard came out wrong. For background, the run included a cocobolo neck and fretboard. The main goal of it was to have the neck and fretboard seamless like it was one whole piece. Mine sadly was not at all. If anything, it looked like regular rosewood... it was pretty jarring and I was pretty heart broken about it.

So I got a hold of my sales rep showing him pictures in which he forwarded it to their Customer Manager in which he forwarded it straight to Jeff. This was on Friday and on Monday I woke up to a personal email by Jeff. He apologized and 100% agreed with me that it was not how it should have been. He told me that rarely it happens that the second piece of the neck (used for the fretboard) could get chipped or have cracks in it. In this case they have to grab another piece which wouldn't match sadly.

Jeff offered me "something special" on any future build or run I get in on. Now here I thought, well shit now I have to pay more to get more back. Kind of a weird situation, but I get it, it was a special run, no returns, no way to fix it, and it's technically cocobolo like I ordered. Not only that, but the guitar has grown on me and I don't mind the look. It also plays and feels great. So I took the chance. I accepted it and get in on the current headless run.

So what did Jeff give me for "some special"? Well... actually a few pretty amazing upgrades that equaled out to $250 of free upgrades already on top of the savings from the run itself. Not only that but he let me spec out two guitars in which he gave free options on both and I got to choose which I wanted.

So while I'm sad to hear stories like this, I truly am, but to say that Kiesel is bad and there are "mountains" of info like this, it's super minuscule to the stories like mine and the thousands of happy customers out there. I also want to remind everyone... DO NOT ORDER CUSTOM OPTIONS FROM KIESEL!! Not only is the proof there, but even Kiesel themselves don't act like they are confident with this kind of stuff.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Oh Jeff always hooked it up, when things were good, things were GOOD. Not to talk myself up but I used to be pretty vocal about NGDs and do photo/video of my gear. (Across the board, not specifically only towards Kiesels) So I'm sure he factored some of that into it.

Back when Guitar Porn ran that DC7X run they made a contest for people who could make a video demonstrating the guitars and we had always talked about the videos I would make. So even back then he knew me and a few others would essentially showcase our guitars which in turn only helps Kiesel as a brand.

After my 2nd order I always got hooked up on free options and huge discounts. So much so that when it came time to cut my loses I either broke even or didn't lose more than $100 per guitar I ended up letting go of which was nice.

But, @Albake21 having a thread into the 100+ page level of discussion with several dozen people having problems isn't exactly minuscule. It may be minor in comparison to their ratio of happy customers, but that should never be an excuse for a company.

Yeah Apple completely dicked over Linus Tech Tips and a few other Tech Youtubers on the iMac Pro issues/repairs. But they sell millions of computers and have a pretty positive ratio of well produced products. It doesn't change the severity of the issues that DID occur, nor does it excuse the poor excuse that their Customer Service was when those high profile people and customers tried to get help in some capacity.

I'm glad you're satisfied with that resolution on your cocobolo problem, but he still got you to give him another thousand+ dollars to get "hooked up" for their mistake. It doesn't take much man, and the specific issue with Jeff is that he not only has zero tact when the consumer disagrees with his options/resolution. He also doubles down and tries backing you into a corner when things do go south. In your position, they screwed up, you called them out on it, they responded with an offer to make it right, and you took it because it was enough for you.

If for example, you had asked for a partial refund in the amount of those free options on your current order. (So you're not an entire other instrument into this to get comped for the mistake). Things would have played out differently.

I'm a pretty reasonable guy, but when a business presents no option that's acceptable to me I will take matters into my own hands to get a resolution that is satisfactory to me. And to be more specific, Jeff offered me a rebuild as a last resort and all that retaliation/personal jabs at me when I had already been mentally set on a refund. After ALL of those mishaps on my pair of K Series guitars. He never offered to comp me once in this entire process. So thankfully that's a move in the right direction, he recognizes his fuck ups and is trying to make it right. Still not optimal IMO, but it's your decision to be satisfied or not.


----------



## Albake21

Jonathan20022 said:


> Oh Jeff always hooked it up, when things were good, things were GOOD. Not to talk myself up but I used to be pretty vocal about NGDs and do photo/video of my gear. (Across the board, not specifically only towards Kiesels) So I'm sure he factored some of that into it.
> 
> Back when Guitar Porn ran that DC7X run they made a contest for people who could make a video demonstrating the guitars and we had always talked about the videos I would make. So even back then he knew me and a few others would essentially showcase our guitars which in turn only helps Kiesel as a brand.
> 
> After my 2nd order I always got hooked up on free options and huge discounts. So much so that when it came time to cut my loses I either broke even or didn't lose more than $100 per guitar I ended up letting go of which was nice.
> 
> But, @Albake21 having a thread into the 100+ page level of discussion with several dozen people having problems isn't exactly minuscule. It may be minor in comparison to their ratio of happy customers, but that should never be an excuse for a company.
> 
> Yeah Apple completely dicked over Linus Tech Tips and a few other Tech Youtubers on the iMac Pro issues/repairs. But they sell millions of computers and have a pretty positive ratio of well produced products. It doesn't change the severity of the issues that DID occur, nor does it excuse the poor excuse that their Customer Service was when those high profile people and customers tried to get help in some capacity.
> 
> I'm glad you're satisfied with that resolution on your cocobolo problem, but he still got you to give him another thousand+ dollars to get "hooked up" for their mistake. It doesn't take much man, and the specific issue with Jeff is that he not only has zero tact when the consumer disagrees with his options/resolution. He also doubles down and tries backing you into a corner when things do go south. In your position, they screwed up, you called them out on it, they responded with an offer to make it right, and you took it because it was enough for you.
> 
> If for example, you had asked for a partial refund in the amount of those free options on your current order. (So you're not an entire other instrument into this to get comped for the mistake). Things would have played out differently.
> 
> I'm a pretty reasonable guy, but when a business presents no option that's acceptable to me I will take matters into my own hands to get a resolution that is satisfactory to me. And to be more specific, Jeff offered me a rebuild as a last resort and all that retaliation/personal jabs at me when I had already been mentally set on a refund. After ALL of those mishaps on my pair of K Series guitars. He never offered to comp me once in this entire process. So thankfully that's a move in the right direction, he recognizes his fuck ups and is trying to make it right. Still not optimal IMO, but it's your decision to be satisfied or not.


No I get it, it's understandable. In your situation and what happened I'd be pissed too and you have every right to be. I guess my point it, shit happens. You obviously don't want it to happen to you, but there will always be a chance. There is no such thing as a perfect business. You even proved my point with Apple... hell even Samsung. It is what it is, and again it really sucks it happened to you, but I still want to reiterate, these problems are absolutely minuscule to the positive customers. If they weren't, Kiesel would be dead in the water by now. Even if it was say... 3% of order, it would still be dead in the water.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

You know, the amount of fuck ups and dissatisfied customers does seem to be on a downward trend, here and elsewhere. Maybe Kiesel is learning? I mean, most of the really bad screw ups came from when he was still relatively green at all this.

I think a lot of people's expectations have come back in line with reality as well. I think by now folks are starting to realize to keep things as simple as possible while still getting a guitar you want and to basically consider the old "10-day return guarantee" dead and buried. 

This of course does nothing for folks who already got boned, and one should always be cautious.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Jonathan20022 said:


> @Lord Voldemort
> 
> Riddle me this, in like 2 - 3 months before you get your guitar. And you tune into your good buddy Jeff's radical live streams to say the same stuff he usually does but walk around the factory and pull random guitars to wolf whistle at. You spot your guitar! Oh boy! He called your name! Shows off your guitar and.. oh wait. It's missing the finish you paid for. But it looks fucking rad brother!! What more could you ask for?
> 
> You call up your sales guy, and ask him "Hey Chris, I just tuned into a livestream and saw Jeff say my guitar is about to go to get it's hardware installed but it's missing that finish we ordered on my spec sheet, can you look into that for me and confirm?". Chris responds that he'll look into that for you and bring it up to Jeff directly.
> 
> Your good old pal Jeff gets on the call, and asks you how you're doing and that it's good to hear from you! You exchange a few words, and then he brings up the issue you're calling about. You know, the missing finish! "Listen brother, I think this guitar looks rad right now and if I recall correctly I was told to have creative freedoms on your build and change things around!". Taken aback, you think back on your DMs with good ol' Jeff Kiesel and say that you don't really recall that but go look to make sure.
> 
> Sure enough, you don't find this agreement to let Jeff completely change your specs but still charge you for all your specs since you paid up front of course! You pick your phone back up and tell Jeff to look through your conversations and let him know that this simply never happened. Jeff checks, and begrudgingly concedes that this never actually happened!
> 
> But Brother, the guitar has already been cleared and the labor and time involved with getting this guitar back and to the spec you ordered and paid for in the first place would be a bit of a setback for Jeff, so he'd have to pass on the cost of fixing his own mistake and misunderstanding to you for the low low cost of a couple hundred bucks!
> 
> That's not too bad you think, but then again this isn't a mistake on your end so why should you have to take on the cost and inconvenience of all this? So you decide to get a little stern with your buddy Jeff and tell him that you're simply not going to pay for a mistake they made and that you'd like them to refinish the guitar on their dime to make it correct. Jeff asks you to hold on for a bit and after some thought he agrees to do it for you, you know because you're part of the family! Not like he just tried to pin a mistake on you and charge you to fix it after he got caught, no way!
> 
> Anyways, I'm short on time so I'm not going to patronize you further, I'll just list the rest of the problems that came up. And you let me know what you think.
> 
> The Custom 7pc Laminated Neck with woods you requested and sent in a mockup for came completely wrong, but you still paid for the custom laminate neck upcharge. This didn't get fixed because it would not only cost your buddy Jeff too much money, but you'd have to wait on an entirely new instrument.
> 
> Your guitar arrives with fretwear on damn near every fret north of the 12th due to what looks like a long tool (Ruler, file, etc) pushed down far enough to dig straight divots into your frets. Your nut is cut too low, so some strings are buzzing when played open. Your guitar has 3 - 4mm dent(*s*) on the body/neck, and scratches all over the body. You send it back to fix all of the issues that are fixable, and the guitar returns fixed but with even more physical damage to the instrument.
> 
> So spec mishaps, blame shifting, trying to charge you to fix a mistake, damage and wear, on your brand new kiesel which cost you a couple thousand bucks.
> 
> Let's say this happens to you when your build comes up to the competition line and when it arrives. How would you personally handle this specific situation? How would you feel in this spot? You've given them 3 chances to deliver you a functional instrument that matches your order but all you've gotten so far is the direct opposite.
> 
> If you want to call my bluff I'll show you literally every photo of this and show you Jeff's direct responses and jabs at me once I asked him for a full refund for this shitshow. This was my K series that I ordered, my 6th Kiesel. You like preaching about this non-suck up Customer Service you appreciate, and downplay a majority of Kiesel's issues to people nitpicking with a microscope. But none of this is true, nor should you praise Jeff for how he handles his business. It favors suckers who choose to ignore negative reviews over having a group of clients who are long term and feel respected and like their money is appreciated in any capacity.
> 
> I hope your guitar comes out alright, but God damnit is it getting annoying when people come in here and play dumb when there's a mountain of documented situations that don't make Kiesel as a company look good. Genuinely interested in your response, because it's apparent Jeff's marketing and online presence is working on some number of people still.



That would suck a fat one, and if that regularly happens and/or happens to me I'd be very upset. I'd be sincerely very interested to see that mountain of complaints. I've only seen about a dozen problems so far, and I've been looking.

Like I said, if they're assholes to you personally and it's unwarranted or they fuck up on your instrument and don't fix it and/or are assholes about that as well, then of course you're not going to like them.

If they're having super consistent problems and a ton of feedback that they're dicks and make a shitty product, all of the time, then also fair enough. Unfortunately they still have a huge amount of satisfied customers, with a small amount of extremely vocal upset ones as far as I can tell. You can find threads from angry customers flaming Strandberg, Skervesen, Gibson, whatever about how their quality control is garbage and they're falling apart as well.

Obviously you're not going to agree, you're a lot of the people making those threads, and I'm literally saying that you're being dramatic and probably at fault for being an entitled little baby in how you approach Kiesel. Shocking that you don't agree, isn't it?

But hey, have fun ignoring all of my points and pointing out my grammar!


----------



## Albake21

MaxOfMetal said:


> You know, the amount of fuck ups and dissatisfied customers does seem to be on a downward trend, here and elsewhere. Maybe Kiesel is learning? I mean, most of the really bad screw ups came from when he was still relatively green at all this.
> 
> I think a lot of people's expectations have come back in line with reality as well. I think by now folks are starting to realize to keep things as simple as possible while still getting a guitar you want and to basically consider the old "10-day return guarantee" dead and buried.
> 
> This of course does nothing for folks who already got boned, and one should always be cautious.


This. This is exactly what I've been trying to get at, I just couldn't come up with the words. Again, it doesn't just push all the past mistakes under the rug. They are there and it happened, but I truly think these issues have really gone down.


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## Lord Voldemort

I haven't posted consistently here in about three years, and it's amazing what the opinion Kiesel was then and is now at this forum. 

Back in my day, we loved our cheap American made multiscale headless djent guitars made by our pretentious, tatted builders!


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## MaxOfMetal

Lord Voldemort said:


> I haven't posted consistently here in about three years, and it's amazing what the opinion Kiesel was then and is now at this forum.
> 
> Back in my day, we loved our cheap American made multiscale headless djent guitars made by our pretentious, tatted builders!



There was a solid year where it seemed there was at least one major shit show thread every few weeks. 

It got bad enough that Jeff tried to get Alex (site owner and admin) to delete all kinds of stuff, pictures, threads, users, etc. It was kind of a big deal, but it was mostly behind the scenes. That's why no official Kiesel accounts post here anymore and they were removed as a site sponsor. 

Jeff is freedom to remove content from his social media, but he doesn't own SSO.


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## Lord Voldemort

MaxOfMetal said:


> There was a solid year where it seemed there was at least one major shit show thread every few weeks.
> 
> It got bad enough that Jeff tried to get Alex (site owner and admin) to delete all kinds of stuff, pictures, threads, users, etc. It was kind of a big deal, but it was mostly behind the scenes. That's why no official Kiesel accounts post here anymore and they were removed as a site sponsor.
> 
> Jeff is freedom to remove content from his social media, but he doesn't own SSO.



Yikes. 

I've read a good amount of the threads, to be fair, and there's definitely some problems that Kiesel has sent out, I'm certainly not arguing that. 

I do feel though that Kiesel is the kind of business that doesn't give you that 'customer is always right' service, though. Because I work in retail and pretty much always have, I sincerely have a very clear view of how people can be at their worst, and I'd expect a multi-thousand dollar instrument that they've been waiting months for being not what they want or constructed poorly to elicit some extreme reactions, and I actually quite like that their reps tell you exactly how they feel and what's objectively happening. That's clearly a polarizing thing. 

Anyways, I've already said more than enough about all that, and it is what it is. 

Excited for that fucking Osiris.


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## Sephiroth952

MaxOfMetal said:


> Jeff is freedom


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## MaxOfMetal

Sephiroth952 said:


>



Fucking autocorrect. But totally worth it for this post.


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## MaxOfMetal

Lord Voldemort said:


> Yikes.
> 
> I've read a good amount of the threads, to be fair, and there's definitely some problems that Kiesel has sent out, I'm certainly not arguing that.
> 
> I do feel though that Kiesel is the kind of business that doesn't give you that 'customer is always right' service, though. Because I work in retail and pretty much always have, I sincerely have a very clear view of how people can be at their worst, and I'd expect a multi-thousand dollar instrument that they've been waiting months for being not what they want or constructed poorly to elicit some extreme reactions, and I actually quite like that their reps tell you exactly how they feel and what's objectively happening. That's clearly a polarizing thing.
> 
> Anyways, I've already said more than enough about all that, and it is what it is.
> 
> Excited for that fucking Osiris.



No need to explain. Do what makes you happy. 

I'm just explaining what caused the shift that you mentioned. It's been a busy few years.


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## Jonathan20022

Lord Voldemort said:


> That would suck a fat one, and if that regularly happens and/or happens to me I'd be very upset. I'd be sincerely very interested to see that mountain of complaints. I've only seen about a dozen problems so far, and I've been looking.
> 
> Like I said, if they're assholes to you personally and it's unwarranted or they fuck up on your instrument and don't fix it and/or are assholes about that as well, then of course you're not going to like them.
> 
> If they're having super consistent problems and a ton of feedback that they're dicks and make a shitty product, all of the time, then also fair enough. Unfortunately they still have a huge amount of satisfied customers, with a small amount of extremely vocal upset ones as far as I can tell. You can find threads from angry customers flaming Strandberg, Skervesen, Gibson, whatever about how their quality control is garbage and they're falling apart as well.
> 
> Obviously you're not going to agree, you're a lot of the people making those threads, and I'm literally saying that you're being dramatic and probably at fault for being an entitled little baby in how you approach Kiesel. Shocking that you don't agree, isn't it?
> 
> But hey, have fun ignoring all of my points and pointing out my grammar!



I'm not sure what you're referring to there at the end, unless you meant to also quote someone else. I didn't ignore your points nor make fun of your grammar.

If you are speaking to me then I could care less about how you view it then. I don't see myself as being a crybaby all things considered, but I definitely don't like being bent over and reamed by a company.

They're making cheap US Custom instruments, but they're not the only players on the court, and plenty of others outperform Kiesel even if it does cost a bit more for some of them.

At the end of the day I had 5 great Kiesels, and now I have none and I'm more satisfied with my guitar rack than I've ever been.


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## Lord Voldemort

Jonathan20022 said:


> I'm not sure what you're referring to there at the end, unless you meant to also quote someone else. I didn't ignore your points nor make fun of your grammar.
> 
> If you are speaking to me then I could care less about how you view it then. I don't see myself as being a crybaby all things considered, but I definitely don't like being bent over and reamed by a company.
> 
> They're making cheap US Custom instruments, but they're not the only players on the court, and plenty of others outperform Kiesel even if it does cost a bit more for some of them.
> 
> At the end of the day I had 5 great Kiesels, and now I have none and I'm more satisfied with my guitar rack than I've ever been.


 
Everything you said here was fair enough, but just for clarity I was not referring to you specifically, you just happened to be quoted.


----------



## Mathemagician

Man I was with Voldy for the most part on page 112 right up until he got to “...If they take your guitar apart for NAMM they’ll tell you...”

Man FUCK that noise.

If I so much as put down a PENNY and someone tries to pawn what is now a floor model on me I would fucking sue.

And I can afford it no matter how “frivolous” a court may find it. I would ensure that it cost more in legal fees and processing and time wasted than the margin they made on my guitar.

You don’t need to get a paycheck to “win” a lawsuit. My money does not go towards anyone else’s benefit. If they liked my model/specs/paint job then they can build another one.

Fucking dick riding fanboys. That shit is no different than people defending their favorite game console or musician as near-infallible.

You can take or leave Jeff’s attitude sure. But don’t defend unethical business practices.


Edited because I don’t need to be a dick.


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## MatiasTolkki

Jonathan20022 said:


> I'm not sure what you're referring to there at the end, unless you meant to also quote someone else. I didn't ignore your points nor make fun of your grammar.
> 
> If you are speaking to me then I could care less about how you view it then. I don't see myself as being a crybaby all things considered, but I definitely don't like being bent over and reamed by a company.
> 
> They're making cheap US Custom instruments, but they're not the only players on the court, and plenty of others outperform Kiesel even if it does cost a bit more for some of them.
> 
> At the end of the day I had 5 great Kiesels, and now I have none and I'm more satisfied with my guitar rack than I've ever been.



And thank you to Ibanez for making affordable MIJ guitars so my attention is always over there. No kiesel will EVER be as affordable as an RG550 here in Japan.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Mathemagician said:


> Man I was with Voldy for the most part on page 112 right up until he got to “...If they take your guitar apart for NAMM they’ll tell you...”
> 
> Man FUCK that noise.
> 
> If I so much as put down a PENNY and someone tries to pawn what is now a floor model on me I would fucking sue.
> 
> And I can afford it no matter how “frivolous” a court may find it. I would ensure that it cost more in legal fees and processing and time wasted than the margin they made on my guitar.
> 
> You don’t need to get a paycheck to “win” a lawsuit. My money does not go towards anyone else’s benefit. If they liked my model/specs/paint job then they can build another one.
> 
> Fucking dick riding fanboys. That shit is no different than people defending their favorite game console or musician as near-infallible.
> 
> You can take or leave Jeff’s attitude sure. But don’t defend unethical business practices.
> 
> 
> Edited because I don’t need to be a dick.



Well look at this guy, coming in strong. 

Appreciate the passion, but just want to point out that I never gave a stance on that facet of their business, merely said I appreciate that they tell you exactly what's happening in an objective manner, even if it's news like that. 

So this is awkward.


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## Mathemagician

No. They didn’t deliver the news up front. They only “admitted” it after the fact. It’s not “objective” to tell some you stole thier shit after you got caught.

I’m not sure how you can pretend to not understand how unethical that is.

Just enjoy your Osiris. No need to pretend Kiesel is anything other than a for-profit company like anyone else.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Mathemagician said:


> No. They didn’t deliver the news up front. They only “admitted” it after the fact. It’s not “objective” to tell some you stole thier shit after you got caught.
> 
> I’m not sure how you can pretend to not understand how unethical that is.
> 
> Just enjoy your Osiris. No need to pretend Kiesel is anything other than a for-profit company like anyone else.



Again, didn't take a position on that in the first place, so you're literally arguing your own invented argument. 

But thank you, I hope I will dude.


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## MaxOfMetal

Is everyone having fun yet? I know I am. 

Let's all just end our posts with "Good day, sir!" 

I said good day!


----------



## Mathemagician

Lord Voldemort said:


> Again, didn't take a position on that in the first place, so you're literally arguing your own invented argument.
> 
> But thank you, I hope I will dude.



Ok, so point blank: Do you think that behavior is acceptable, or is it unethical?


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Mathemagician said:


> Ok, so point blank: Do you think that behavior is acceptable, or is it unethical?



Of course not man, that is absolutely a dick move. 

That's why I'm impressed that the customer service reps are so blunt about it, it would be far easier to lie and it's not like they can control that kind of choice, just like any retail job. 

You're acting as though I'm saying Kiesel is a perfect company, but I'm not. If anything I'm saying that Kiesel isn't a specifically bad one, which is not the same thing.


----------



## technomancer

Lord Voldemort said:


> Of course not man, that is absolutely a dick move.
> 
> That's why I'm impressed that the customer service reps are so blunt about it, it would be far easier to lie and it's not like they can control that kind of choice, just like any retail job.
> 
> You're acting as though I'm saying Kiesel is a perfect company, but I'm not. If anything I'm saying that Kiesel isn't a specifically bad one, which is not the same thing.



It's called not giving a fuck about your customers. Not sure how that is impressive from a customer service standpoint


----------



## Lord Voldemort

technomancer said:


> It's called not giving a fuck about your customers. Not sure how that is impressive from a customer service standpoint



Interesting perspective.

While open to interpretation, it's also called telling the truth and treating your customers like equals, and not little children and lying to them. Being in retail, what do you think is an easier thing:

"I don't know sir, let me ask my supervisor...he didn't know either sir, I'm terribly sorry about this, want a sticker?"

Or "they decided to use your guitar for NAMM parts, sorry man"?

Ultimately they're just being straightforward, and again it's very polarizing.


----------



## technomancer

Lord Voldemort said:


> Interesting perspective.
> 
> While open to interpretation, it's also called telling the truth and treating your customers like equals, and not little children and lying to them. Being in retail, what do you think is an easier thing:
> 
> "I don't know sir, let me ask my supervisor...he didn't know either sir, I'm terribly sorry about this, want a sticker?"
> 
> Or "they decided to use your guitar for NAMM parts, sorry man"?
> 
> Ultimately they're just being straightforward, and again it's very polarizing.



The attitude of CS / Kiesel in pretty much all of these stories is we will do what we want and there is nothing you can do about it as if you cancel your order you lose your deposit at minimum. If you choose to see that as straight forward and a good thing there really isn't much else to discuss.

Almost forgot,

Good day, sir!

I said good day!


----------



## Lord Voldemort

I'm tired, and I'm about to eat tacos. I'm going to focus on that for a bit.


----------



## Mattykoda

Some people just need hugs daily...

Good day, sir!

I said good day!

Also, I wonder if lord Voldemort knows Jeffbro? He was fun too.


----------



## Hollowway

Lord Voldemort said:


> I don't think I've read a more ebellished and snide reaction to something I've said in years. That was absolutely hilarious, the amount of detailed synapses you've chosen specifically to simplify yet exaggerate all at the aim to make me look stupid and eliminate any grey area is amazing, yet I feel that your brain may just naturally work that way, which must really be a far sadder reality that you're unable to escape, and I'd be further fascinated to have your simplified inferrence on that as well to determine that.
> 
> You've immediately inferred from what I said that my customer service is bad, at the popular customer service business that has 5 stars on Yelp with hundreds of votes and has thrice promoted me to be in charge of a huge sum of employees that deal in customer service, literally deal with the most comicated issues in customer service that strictly affect profits, and that in that same line of work, I'm always right when dealing with said issues! That's about as an extreme way to interpret what I said as is literally possible, and it's about as wrong as taking anything as far in a direction you can tends to be. That's about the equivalent of my daughter telling me that not giving her candy is starving her. You could not be more hypersensitive in a reaction to something than you were in your initial comment. And we're only two sentences in!
> 
> You then compared a boutique, high end custom guitar company to global food service stores and a computer company, the former that sells products such as bananas and cups of coffee for less than $2 and the latter that makes electronics in China with slave labor.
> 
> You literally could not choose different models of business if you tried; the only thing Kiesel and Costco have in common, literally, is Capitalism. Since you're clearly developmentally disabled, when you work at Apple and are worth 4.6 BILLION dollars, while selling a product with an overhead of $100 in combined labor and parts for $12-1800, you can absolutely afford to give customers quite literally whatever they want, all the time. A customer could call in and irrationally say that he got mad at a pop up, smashed his computer and demand a new one and you could give him 100 without even noticing on your taxes. Kiesel makes guitars as cheap as Korean imports, using American workers and extra thorough processes that Apple couldn't even imagine, for a very comparably small clientele that come in a 'customize my product and build it from scratch, every single time's manner. Literally, completely 100% literally different business models. That's like comparing beef Jerkey to grape juice, just because it's food doesn't mean it has anything in common. Literally, the most illogical analogy I've ever heard, hastily concocted and snidely presented by a child.
> 
> If you have a problem with any product made by a business like Kiesel, you can't call them like you call McDonalds because you're not getting french fries. If there is a problem with your instrument that is reasonable, which happens and is fixed on a daily basis at Kiesel and is extremely rarely a problem, the 3 people making threads like 'I wanted a flame maple finish and I'm mad because they could do it with the Burl maple I chose' and ''I didn't know there were no refunds on my model and I didn't no the return policy was ten days even though it's literally stated on the website in multiple places and thoroughly explained by the salesmen' and then not having that fixed are obnoxious. A small custom business is genuinely better off avoiding people that fuck up their own order and cry about it for years on forums entirely. American custom guitars are expensive, if you haven't noticed, it costs a lot to make a whole new one because your customer didn't do any research before dropping over a thousand dollars on your product.
> 
> If you have a technical mistake and you can't get that sorted, that's fine. That's really Kiesel's fault, and they should fix it, and there are far more stories about Kiesel simply repairing their products than refusing to. Generally the ones about a product not being repaired involves a series of phone calls told from one person's perspective, incidentally the person that feels victimized, and ends with the call person 'being a real jerk!' and them being banned from ordering. Since that's happened like 30 times in tens of thousands of orders, sorry bud it's absolutely safe to assume it's them being difficult.
> 
> Oh, and one can be mild mannered on the phone, not just super excited or a complete dick, that's a false dichotomy logical fallacy, and the fact that they work on the phone is purely coincidental, the point I was illustrating is that it's ultimately people working, and they're not going to be as excited as someone making a 1k+ purchase on a once in a lifetime guitar. I also incidentally said that they're real, down to earth and pleasant, but have the ability to conduct themselves how they see fit if someone gets nasty with them, which is a human right.
> 
> You are EXACTLY what I'm talking about, and you really need to get a retail job and see the world. Holy shit .



I read your response in this voice:






 Sorry, LordV, just messing with you. I still completely disagree with your assessment of people's complaints about Kiesel, but I have nothing personal against you. (Though, based on calling me a developmentally disabled child, I'm gonna guess you have a problem with me, lol.) I just feel it's not your place to judge whatever issues other people have had, based on your lack of problems and lack of actual information about those issues. I've seen too many times where Jeff comes off as the jerk, and the customer is not. Whereas 10-15 years ago, when Mark was at the helm, they were lauded for their customer service. It's been my experience. And even some of the guys on the carvinbbs felt the shift from good service to not-so-good. I, personally, am a Kiesel fan. I just feel like Jeff's ego gets in the way of it being an even better company. I mean, I know they're making money like nobody's business. But, I miss that "we'll do whatever we need to in order to make it right" attitude they used to have. And the shared excitement of putting in a new order, etc.


----------



## Miek

MaxOfMetal said:


> Is everyone having fun yet? I know I am.
> 
> Let's all just end our posts with "Good day, sir!"
> 
> I said good day!


you lose! good day sir!


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Hollowway said:


> I read your response in this voice:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, LordV, just messing with you. I still completely disagree with your assessment of people's complaints about Kiesel, but I have nothing personal against you. I just feel it's not your place to judge whatever issues other people have had, based on your lack of problems. I've seen too many times where Jeff comes off as the jerk, and the customer is not. Whereas 10-15 years ago, when Mark was at the helm, they were lauded for their customer service. It's been my experience. And even some of the guys on the carvinbbs felt the shift from good service to not-so-good. I, personally, am a Kiesel fan. I just feel like Jeff's ego gets in the way of it being an even better company. I mean, I know they're making money like nobody's business. But, I miss that "we'll do whatever we need to in order to make it right" attitude they used to have. And the shared excitement of putting in a new order, etc.



If anyone had noticed how much I was on the carvin BBS touting how great my JB200 was, touting how I liked my v220, people would know that Jeff's attitude and decision to kill off the 12 pole piece pickups pissed me the hell off. It's precisely why i got banned off those forums, was my anger about that stuff (which I spent that whole other thread going after Jeff). Also, when I read about people getting banned off the facebook page for honest criticism of the company/CS, it made me turn against them and go back to Ibanez. Do I love my JB200? Damn right I do, that guitar is a work of art and plays like a dream. Would I consider another one? Depends on a few things, but if i could ever find a 2nd one used, damn right I'd buy it.


----------



## Hollowway

MatiasTolkki said:


> If anyone had noticed how much I was on the carvin BBS touting how great my JB200 was, touting how I liked my v220, people would know that Jeff's attitude and decision to kill off the 12 pole piece pickups pissed me the hell off. It's precisely why i got banned off those forums, was my anger about that stuff (which I spent that whole other thread going after Jeff). Also, when I read about people getting banned off the facebook page for honest criticism of the company/CS, it made me turn against them and go back to Ibanez. Do I love my JB200? Damn right I do, that guitar is a work of art and plays like a dream. Would I consider another one? Depends on a few things, but if i could ever find a 2nd one used, damn right I'd buy it.


I'm the same way. The last time I called in to do a phone order, I decided not to do it, based on how that conversation went. I still like their guitars. A LOT. But I only buy them used now, because I'm scared of dealing with stuff on a custom order. (Though, in fairness, I really don't want to buy any custom new, just because the likelihood of being screwed is so high.) It could be my bad luck, though. Maybe the times I've called in have just been bad days for the guys. But in the past, when I'd put in an order (and we're only talking about 3 guitars in the past) the guys would seem to be as pumped as I was about the order, and would be kicking around ideas, etc. I kind of feel like the guy what might be more into that these days is Chris Hong. And Flock is pretty cool if you drop in the showroom.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Hollowway said:


> I'm the same way. The last time I called in to do a phone order, I decided not to do it, based on how that conversation went. I still like their guitars. A LOT. But I only buy them used now, because I'm scared of dealing with stuff on a custom order. (Though, in fairness, I really don't want to buy any custom new, just because the likelihood of being screwed is so high.) It could be my bad luck, though. Maybe the times I've called in have just been bad days for the guys. But in the past, when I'd put in an order (and we're only talking about 3 guitars in the past) the guys would seem to be as pumped as I was about the order, and would be kicking around ideas, etc. I kind of feel like the guy what might be more into that these days is Chris Hong. And Flock is pretty cool if you drop in the showroom.



Chris is the man, coolest dude ever. I've never been to the showroom, and knowing that Jeff keeps an eye on people who attack him or his brand, they'd probably throw me out


----------



## Cynicanal

Speaking for my one experience, the word I'd have used to describe the call was "businesslike" (which I appreciated). The only suggestions/ideas for my build that were offered were going with Lithium pickups (I said that I'd rather go with M22SD/M22Vs and the response was "ah, that's cool" and that was that) and going with a matching headstock overlay (I was originally going to go painted black, Jackson-style; I'm glad Keith talked me into going with the overlay, it looks _so_ much better); otherwise, he simply took my order and answered my questions (for instance, when I asked about having it set up for down-tuning out of the factory, he told me about the UCS option).


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Hollowway said:


> I read your response in this voice:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, LordV, just messing with you. I still completely disagree with your assessment of people's complaints about Kiesel, but I have nothing personal against you. (Though, based on calling me a developmentally disabled child, I'm gonna guess you have a problem with me, lol.) I just feel it's not your place to judge whatever issues other people have had, based on your lack of problems and lack of actual information about those issues. I've seen too many times where Jeff comes off as the jerk, and the customer is not. Whereas 10-15 years ago, when Mark was at the helm, they were lauded for their customer service. It's been my experience. And even some of the guys on the carvinbbs felt the shift from good service to not-so-good. I, personally, am a Kiesel fan. I just feel like Jeff's ego gets in the way of it being an even better company. I mean, I know they're making money like nobody's business. But, I miss that "we'll do whatever we need to in order to make it right" attitude they used to have. And the shared excitement of putting in a new order, etc.



Haha! Well fair enough, no worries. 

I wasn't really upset about your feelings about Kiesel, you're absolutely entitled to like or dislike something at your own volition, I was more upset and frankly stunned at what you took away from my post. It seemed unnecessarily hostile and genuinely put words in my mouth, and the logic you chose to supplement it all with was just obnoxious, with all due respect. So I was more like ah haaaallllll nnnaaaahhhhh no he didn't 

But it's cool dude, this is the internet and that shit happens.


----------



## tylerpond05

Hollowway said:


> I kind of feel like the guy what might be more into that these days is Chris Hong. And Flock is pretty cool if you drop in the showroom.



I agree that dropping by the showroom to talk with Flock is awesome. I was first going to get my Vanquish in a light pink top and grabber blue body, dubbed “Bubblicious”. He was all for it. Then when I sobered up to the cost of that entire idea, I went with my aquaburst flamed maple/black Limba body, he was super helpful about why I would choose chrome over black/gold hardware, blah blah blah. Then when I picked up the guitar, he wanted to throw a pearl topped knob, which I wasn’t super into, but let him just to placate him. When he did, I was actually super pleased with it, and still am. I know that this isn’t everyone’s experience, but it is mine and and very happy with the outcome. I feel bad for those whose experience wasn’t similar to mine. Especially since I didn’t drop nearly as much money on mine as others did for theirs.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

tylerpond05 said:


> I agree that dropping by the showroom to talk with Flock is awesome. I was first going to get my Vanquish in a light pink top and grabber blue body, dubbed “Bubblicious”. He was all for it. Then when I sobered up to the cost of that entire idea, I went with my aquaburst flamed maple/black Limba body, he was super helpful about why I would choose chrome over black/gold hardware, blah blah blah. Then when I picked up the guitar, he wanted to throw a pearl topped knob, which I wasn’t super into, but let him just to placate him. When he did, I was actually super pleased with it, and still am. I know that this isn’t everyone’s experience, but it is mine and and very happy with the outcome. I feel bad for those whose experience wasn’t similar to mine. Especially since I didn’t drop nearly as much money on mine as others did for theirs.



See, I've never once had a problem with any of the CS guys, which I have stated enough times. I usually go through Chris, but I've ordered once through Keith before and he was a cool dude, really helpful, and I've talked to Mike about issues regarding my JB200 when i first got it, all super helpful, so when people talk shit about Mike, I dont doubt their experiences, yet my personal experiences have NEVER been bad so take that fwiw.


----------



## spudmunkey

New signature model released today. And like many of their recent signature models, it's a variation on existing models rather than a ground-up all-new model.

It's a new Lee KcKinney signature model. Apparently he's been playing his Vader more than his original signature model, so this isn't too big of a surprise.

What it is:
- Body of the Osiris, with the lower down-turned horn of the Zeus.
- Ushers in the era of the piezo system/saddles and bridges available on Osiris, Zeus and Vader.
- Includes standard ash body, but black limba and mahogany are options.
- flamed maple top, is standard, but quilted maple and the three burls are optional (maple, poplar, and buckete)
- Standard chambering.
- New (much better looking, but still not my jam) optional 12th fret signature inlay. I assume it's an error that the builder says it can come in abalone or white mother of pearl...
- 6 and 7 string, no multiscale
- New "Illusionist" signature humbucker

https://www.kieselguitars.com/catalog/guitars/lm6x
https://www.kieselguitars.com/catalog/guitars/lm7x


I like this shape the best out of all of their 3 bolt-on headless siblings, but I do wish it were available in a non-signature format....but even if it were, it's not in my purchase plan, so my opinion on that doesn't really matter since I wouldn't be speaking with dollars, anyway. Ha!


----------



## KnightBrolaire

spudmunkey said:


> New signature model released today. And like many of their recent signature models, it's a variation on existing models rather than a ground-up all-new model.
> 
> It's a new Lee KcKinney signature model. Apparently he's been playing his Vader more than his original signature model, so this isn't too big of a surprise.
> 
> What it is:
> - Body of the Osiris, with the lower down-turned horn of the Zeus.
> - Ushers in the era of the piezo system/saddles and bridges available on Osiris, Zeus and Vader.
> - Includes standard ash body, but black limba and mahogany are options.
> - flamed maple top, is standard, but quilted maple and the three burls are optional (maple, poplar, and buckete)
> - Standard chambering.
> - New (much better looking, but still not my jam) optional 12th fret signature inlay. I assume it's an error that the builder says it can come in abalone or white mother of pearl...
> - 6 and 7 string, no multiscale
> - New "Illusionist" signature humbucker
> 
> https://www.kieselguitars.com/catalog/guitars/lm6x
> https://www.kieselguitars.com/catalog/guitars/lm7x
> 
> 
> I like this shape the best out of all of their 3 bolt-on headless siblings, but I do wish it were available in a non-signature format....but even if it were, it's not in my purchase plan, so my opinion on that doesn't really matter since I wouldn't be speaking with dollars, anyway. Ha!


I definitely like that more than the osiris.


----------



## technomancer

Next new model: Zeus top half and Osiris bottom half.

That said the combination does look decent and it's cool that they are starting to offer piezeos as an option on that bridge.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

I like the new model, and the price is really tempting. But there's some of those options I have no need for (acoustic saddles).


----------



## spudmunkey

technomancer said:


> Next new model: Zeus top half and Osiris bottom half.



They did it once before, actually, for Felix Martin, a while back:


----------



## spudmunkey

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> I like the new model, and the price is really tempting. But there's some of those options I have no need for (acoustic saddles).



I'm actually kind of surprised at the pricing. With a quick run-through of the Osiris builder, it looks like the LM6X is $90 more than the Osiris...but the weird thing is that the Piezo system on the Osiris is listed at $150, but is noted that it's a "SPECIAL PRICE". On most other models, it's $250. Does that mean that when this "special" expires, that the Osiris will be $10 _more_ than the equivalent LM6X? I can definitely get behind this. It seems like they wold sell more signature models if there was also perhaps a tiny discount for buying a guitar with an "optioned up" bundle.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

I priced one out and it was just at $2,000. That's pretty damn good for a nice flame or quilt and I chose a 3 piece neck.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

MaxOfMetal said:


> Holy shit, @xzacx is going to lose it over how long that post is.



I stopped reading both the long ones because there were no pretty pictures


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Hollowway said:


> I'm the same way. The last time I called in to do a phone order, I decided not to do it, based on how that conversation went. I still like their guitars. A LOT. But I only buy them used now, because I'm scared of dealing with stuff on a custom order. (Though, in fairness, I really don't want to buy any custom new, just because the likelihood of being screwed is so high.) It could be my bad luck, though. Maybe the times I've called in have just been bad days for the guys. But in the past, when I'd put in an order (and we're only talking about 3 guitars in the past) the guys would seem to be as pumped as I was about the order, and would be kicking around ideas, etc. I kind of feel like the guy what might be more into that these days is Chris Hong. And Flock is pretty cool if you drop in the showroom.



Yeah only buy them used. From me. You have 2-3 of mine I think


----------



## Snarpaasi

Cool model, at first glance not looking much different against Boden


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Kiesel is getting better and better at making good looking guitar shapes. 

I'm normally not an Osiris fan, but that swept little horn just works.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> Kiesel is getting better and better at making good looking guitar shapes.
> 
> I'm normally not an Osiris fan, but that swept little horn just works.



I think many people think that historically Carvin and Kiesel designs are "close, but somehow always a little off." I could see that, but I generally actually fell on the side of *liking* their design differences better. That said, I always felt "a little off" about the Schecter Avenger...I liked it, but never enough to seriously consider it. I think this takes what I didn't like about that model, and "fixes" it to something quite attractive. I still won't be buying one, but I really think this is a very attractive guitar.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> I think many people think that historically Carvin and Kiesel designs are "close, but somehow always a little off." I could see that, but I generally actually fell on the side of *liking* their design differences better. That said, I always felt "a little off" about the Schecter Avenger...I liked it, but never enough to seriously consider it. I think this takes what I didn't like about that model, and "fixes" it to something quite attractive. I still won't be buying one, but I really think this is a very attractive guitar.



I think the best term for what Carvin historically put out is "generic". They were familiar shapes made just the slightest bit off. Like when a video game developer doesn't get the rights to the name brand, so they whip up something close enough to get the point across without getting a C&D in the mail. 

Now they seem to be coming into their own with their own design language and while I'd never say their shapes are "innovative" they're certainly more original, interesting and overall better on the eyes. 

This is a good thing.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

Lord Voldemort said:


> I don't think I've read a more ebellished and snide reaction to something I've said in years. That was absolutely hilarious, the amount of detailed synapses you've chosen specifically to simplify yet exaggerate all at the aim to make me look stupid and eliminate any grey area is amazing, yet I feel that your brain may just naturally work that way, which must really be a far sadder reality that you're unable to escape, and I'd be further fascinated to have your simplified inferrence on that as well to determine that.
> 
> You've immediately inferred from what I said that my customer service is bad, at the popular customer service business that has 5 stars on Yelp with hundreds of votes and has thrice promoted me to be in charge of a huge sum of employees that deal in customer service, literally deal with the most comicated issues in customer service that strictly affect profits, and that in that same line of work, I'm always right when dealing with said issues! That's about as an extreme way to interpret what I said as is literally possible, and it's about as wrong as taking anything as far in a direction you can tends to be. That's about the equivalent of my daughter telling me that not giving her candy is starving her. You could not be more hypersensitive in a reaction to something than you were in your initial comment. And we're only two sentences in!
> 
> You then compared a boutique, high end custom guitar company to global food service stores and a computer company, the former that sells products such as bananas and cups of coffee for less than $2 and the latter that makes electronics in China with slave labor.
> 
> You literally could not choose different models of business if you tried; the only thing Kiesel and Costco have in common, literally, is Capitalism. Since you're clearly developmentally disabled, when you work at Apple and are worth 4.6 BILLION dollars, while selling a product with an overhead of $100 in combined labor and parts for $12-1800, you can absolutely afford to give customers quite literally whatever they want, all the time. A customer could call in and irrationally say that he got mad at a pop up, smashed his computer and demand a new one and you could give him 100 without even noticing on your taxes. Kiesel makes guitars as cheap as Korean imports, using American workers and extra thorough processes that Apple couldn't even imagine, for a very comparably small clientele that come in a 'customize my product and build it from scratch, every single time's manner. Literally, completely 100% literally different business models. That's like comparing beef Jerkey to grape juice, just because it's food doesn't mean it has anything in common. Literally, the most illogical analogy I've ever heard, hastily concocted and snidely presented by a child.
> 
> If you have a problem with any product made by a business like Kiesel, you can't call them like you call McDonalds because you're not getting french fries. If there is a problem with your instrument that is reasonable, which happens and is fixed on a daily basis at Kiesel and is extremely rarely a problem, the 3 people making threads like 'I wanted a flame maple finish and I'm mad because they could do it with the Burl maple I chose' and ''I didn't know there were no refunds on my model and I didn't no the return policy was ten days even though it's literally stated on the website in multiple places and thoroughly explained by the salesmen' and then not having that fixed are obnoxious. A small custom business is genuinely better off avoiding people that fuck up their own order and cry about it for years on forums entirely. American custom guitars are expensive, if you haven't noticed, it costs a lot to make a whole new one because your customer didn't do any research before dropping over a thousand dollars on your product.
> 
> If you have a technical mistake and you can't get that sorted, that's fine. That's really Kiesel's fault, and they should fix it, and there are far more stories about Kiesel simply repairing their products than refusing to. Generally the ones about a product not being repaired involves a series of phone calls told from one person's perspective, incidentally the person that feels victimized, and ends with the call person 'being a real jerk!' and them being banned from ordering. Since that's happened like 30 times in tens of thousands of orders, sorry bud it's absolutely safe to assume it's them being difficult.
> 
> Oh, and one can be mild mannered on the phone, not just super excited or a complete dick, that's a false dichotomy logical fallacy, and the fact that they work on the phone is purely coincidental, the point I was illustrating is that it's ultimately people working, and they're not going to be as excited as someone making a 1k+ purchase on a once in a lifetime guitar. I also incidentally said that they're real, down to earth and pleasant, but have the ability to conduct themselves how they see fit if someone gets nasty with them, which is a human right.
> 
> You are EXACTLY what I'm talking about, and you really need to get a retail job and see the world. Holy shit .



Damn, dude. You were really, _*really*_ trying to sound smart here 
Just because you work a retail job doesn't mean you understand people. Otherwise we'd have millions upon millions of psychologists walking around. 
I've been where you're at and thought I knew everything too. I didn't.



MaxOfMetal said:


> You know, the amount of fuck ups and dissatisfied customers does seem to be on a downward trend, here and elsewhere. Maybe Kiesel is learning? I mean, most of the really bad screw ups came from when he was still relatively green at all this.
> 
> I think a lot of people's expectations have come back in line with reality as well. I think by now folks are starting to realize to keep things as simple as possible while still getting a guitar you want and to basically consider the old "10-day return guarantee" dead and buried.
> 
> This of course does nothing for folks who already got boned, and one should always be cautious.



Yeah the actual construction half of the business has definitely improved. I remember a lot of the original complaints being for build-oriented stuff like fucked up bridge placement, bad neck pockets, the infamous photomatch disaster, etc. It seems like lately most of what I'm seeing is just CS issues. 

I like Kiesel, and what they're trying to do. I just wish they had a little bit more tact in dealing with their clients, because they make some bitchin' guitars- but I'd never buy one because the idea of having to deal with the CS gauntlet if something is off sounds like a bad time I want no part of.

Good day, sir.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Ordacleaphobia said:


> Damn, dude. You were really, _*really*_ trying to sound smart here
> Just because you work a retail job doesn't mean you understand people. Otherwise we'd have millions upon millions of psychologists walking around.
> I've been where you're at and thought I knew everything too. I didn't.



As opposed to trying to sound dumb? 

While working in retail isn't always an indicator of knowing people, working in it and excelling in it is definitely a great way to learn the best and worst of people, and what they expect. I have no idea why you'd quote a 9 paragraph post just to inject that I'm trying to sound smart and that I don't know everything, but that's really insightful man, really puts it into perspective etc 

Next time I get into a debate about customer service, I'll ignore my extensive customer service backround and try and sound less like I'm trying to sound smart.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Two weeks later and we're still going on about this?


----------



## Lord Voldemort

MaxOfMetal said:


> Two weeks later and we're still going on about this?



Appreciate the moderation, though. It would be easy to do some clean up, but you've been pretty patient. Great customer service, if you think about it. 

You also reminded me that I ordered that guitar two weeks ago! Only 6-8 to go!!!


----------



## Jeff

Wow.


----------



## Hollowway

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Yeah only buy them used. From me. You have 2-3 of mine I think



 True! I definitely prefer to buy them used. The one I did buy recently (two years ago) from the GIS section had a bad saddle. It's rectified, but I just feel safer going used.

I'm not a huge fan of any of the recent shapes, per se, but I do like that they keep doing it. I like the craziness, and the pushing of the envelope.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

MaxOfMetal said:


> Two weeks later and we're still going on about this?



And this is why I'm just keeping my mouth shut, i know someone is gonna try to start more shit with me.


----------



## Miek

I totally appreciate why they're going they way they're going but I personally miss carvin as carvin


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Miek said:


> I totally appreciate why they're going they way they're going but I personally miss carvin as carvin



Yeah. Simpler times those were.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

MaxOfMetal said:


> Yeah. Simpler times those were.



I still think their updated DC200 aka the JB200 is the best thing they have made in the last 10 years. I DO like the DC600 though. My friend has one with the vader bevels and it feels like an Ibanez RG and a Saber had a baby. Comfortable as hell.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

MatiasTolkki said:


> I still think their updated DC200 aka the JB200 is the best thing they have made in the last 10 years. I DO like the DC600 though. My friend has one with the vader bevels and it feels like an Ibanez RG and a Saber had a baby. Comfortable as hell.



No doubt this is, with some minor exceptions, the best product offering they've had. 

I think I miss Carvin the company more than Carvin the products.

The only JB model I'm into is the Numbers. I always thought it would be cool to offer a "JB Numbers" option for all models and whatever upcharge would, in part, go to Jason.


----------



## Miek

MaxOfMetal said:


> Yeah. Simpler times those were.


my guitar teacher had an old-school carvin so I might be biased but they were enough for me! the kiesel designs for the most part don't seem appealing to me and I think they'll disappear due to changing trends over the next few years .  but I see what people get from them


----------



## MatiasTolkki

MaxOfMetal said:


> No doubt this is, with some minor exceptions, the best product offering they've had.
> 
> I think I miss Carvin the company more than Carvin the products.
> 
> The only JB model I'm into is the Numbers. I always thought it would be cool to offer a "JB Numbers" option for all models and whatever upcharge would, in part, go to Jason.



Well, when i got my JB200, there was only the 200C and 200SC, and I've always liked the numbers idea but the fact painting the body costs so much extra is a total turn off for me. I am real happy with the 200C though, especially since i have the active electronics (discontinued some time ago) and that gives me the ability to get Brian may tones from it, which is something that cant be replicated without going full brian may (guitar, amps, etc).


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Miek said:


> my guitar teacher had an old-school carvin so I might be biased but they were enough for me! the kiesel designs for the most part don't seem appealing to me and I think they'll disappear due to changing trends over the next few years .  but I see what people get from them



I didn't mean that as a bad thing, quite the opposite. 

You could order some kooky 90's guitars, and they were typically weird enough to be different. I loved their basses.


----------



## Miek

oh no I totally get what you mean, I'm just not trying to say that people who like kiesel are wrong to do so, I just think they're very different from what I liked about carvin.

that being said I have specced out a few hypothetical builds with kiesel.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Miek said:


> oh no I totally get what you mean, I'm just not trying to say that people who like kiesel are wrong to do so, I just think they're very different from what I liked about carvin.
> 
> that being said I have specced out a few hypothetical builds with kiesel.



I totally look at them as different companies. 

Different leadership, different employees, different shop, different guitars, etc.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

MaxOfMetal said:


> I totally look at them as different companies.
> 
> Different leadership, different employees, different shop, different guitars, etc.



I think thats the best way to look at it. Do you want Mark's products or Jeff's? That's how you decide what to look for.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> .
> 
> The only JB model I'm into is the Numbers. I always thought it would be cool to offer a "JB Numbers" option for all models and whatever upcharge would, in part, go to Jason.



For what it's worth, they will apparently put the numbers inlays on the JB100. It's possible they might also do it on some other model, but it would have to be 25 and a half since that is the scale that the numbers are sized to fit properly on.


----------



## Miek

MaxOfMetal said:


> I totally look at them as different companies.
> 
> Different leadership, different employees, different shop, different guitars, etc.


for suuuiire


----------



## prlgmnr

At some point they'll relaunch Carvin for all the guitars that look basically like guitars and keep Kiesel for guitars that look like my kids have been eating crayons and then vomited everywhere again.


----------



## spudmunkey

Since the name itself, "Carvin" represents family members from the side of the company Mark and Jeff split from (CARson and gaVIN, Mark Kiesel's brothers/Jeff's uncles), I suspect the only reason they still have *any* "Carvin" branded models is trademark retention. This way nobody else can make "Carvin" guitars, which would be very confusing for the average consumer, and potentially detrimental to even the current Kiesel brand for those who were able to figure out that Kiesel didn't "buy" Carvin. Trademarks aren't protected the same way as patents or copyright, and they expire very quickly if you aren't making a "bona fide" attempt to actively use it. I feel like they could probably just get by with the Bolt and PB bass (one guitar and one bass), and the JB200C is probably the only one that are keeping as "Carvin" due to anything resembling "heritage" or "history"...but they will put Kiesel on it if you want. I wouldn't imagine any expansion of use of the Carvin name, ever. I'd put large sums of money on that. If I had any.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> Since the name itself, "Carvin" represents family members from the side of the company Mark and Jeff split from (CARson and gaVIN, Mark Kiesel's brothers/Jeff's uncles), I suspect the only reason they still have *any* "Carvin" branded models is trademark retention. This way nobody else can make "Carvin" guitars, which would be very confusing for the average consumer, and potentially detrimental to even the current Kiesel brand for those who were able to figure out that Kiesel didn't "buy" Carvin. Trademarks aren't protected the same way as patents or copyright, and they expire very quickly if you aren't making a "bona fide" attempt to actively use it. I feel like they could probably just get by with the Bolt and PB bass (one guitar and one bass), and the JB200C is probably the only one that are keeping as "Carvin" due to anything resembling "heritage" or "history"...but they will put Kiesel on it if you want. I wouldn't imagine any expansion of use of the Carvin name, ever. I'd put large sums of money on that. If I had any.



IIRC, Chris said that the JB200 will never get the kiesel logo, unless something happens on the carvin side of the family that basically sullies the name, and it's going to be the only model to have the carvin name.


----------



## cardinal

The new Lee McKinney model looks great IMHO. Upper half of the Osiris and lower horn of the Zeus. It somehow really works for me. Wish that shape was available in an 8 string.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Haha, this has been an interesting experience, I'm almost afraid to post my opinions here because I've only had good experiences with Kiesel/Carvin and I genuinely think they're awesome. But, this is a forum, this is what you're supposed to do I guess.

That said, you guys really miss the Carvin days? When you couldn't change the pickups without routing and they wouldn't let you send in your own, had to settle for 25.5 scale length, no SS frets, only had one headless model that's pretty literally a tiny little rectangle with pickup rings and a single horn? If you read the first bit of this thread, which is 7-8 years old, the consensus seems to be that Carvin made decent, if unremarkable guitars for a cheap price. Now, it seems that Kiesel makes fantastic and beautiful guitars for a higher price, but fuck up once in a while and are dicks about it.

But you have more customization options all across the board, more streamlined features, and apparently a better made product in general. A few years ago, people would gripe that Carvin wouldn't do a bunch of things, like extended scale length, SS frets, Multiscale, pickup measurements being off and not being flexible, etc. 

Now, they literally listened to all that feedback, added the options requested and now you miss Carvin.

Fuck my life. 

Is there like, video of Jeff saying racist things or something? I'll be honest, I've never even heard the dude talk besides a factory tour video. How did he hurt you all?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Lord Voldemort said:


> Haha, this has been an interesting experience, I'm almost afraid to post my opinions here because I've only had good experiences with Kiesel/Carvin and I genuinely think they're awesome. But, this is a forum, this is what you're supposed to do I guess.
> 
> That said, you guys really miss the Carvin days? When you couldn't change the pickups without routing and they wouldn't let you send in your own, had to settle for 25.5 scale length, no SS frets, only had one headless model that's pretty literally a tiny little rectangle with pickup rings and a single horn? If you read the first bit of this thread, which is 7-8 years old, the consensus seems to be that Carvin made decent, if unremarkable guitars for a cheap price. Now, it seems that Kiesel makes fantastic and beautiful guitars for a higher price, but fuck up once in a while and are dicks about it.
> 
> But you have more customization options all across the board, more streamlined features, and apparently a better made product in general. A few years ago, people would gripe that Carvin wouldn't do a bunch of things, like extended scale length, SS frets, Multiscale, pickup measurements being off and not being flexible, etc.
> 
> Now, they literally listened to all that feedback, added the options requested and now you miss Carvin.
> 
> Fuck my life.
> 
> Is there like, video of Jeff saying racist things or something? I'll be honest, I've never even heard the dude talk besides a factory tour video. How did he hurt you all?



Like I said, I miss Carvin the _company_ not Carvin's products specifically.

I ordered six Carvins over the years, three had problems, and customer service was great, so even though the product wasn't perfect, they always made it right. Today, I don't think Kiesel would do that, so I'm staying away. 

Not sure where you're getting your info, Carvin offered stainless steel frets. They also let you send your pickups in as far back as the early 00's. Those aren't Kiesel additions.

I also don't think that the guitars now are made any better. At all. I've played and worked on tons of Carvins and have tried out several newer Kiesel models, and quality is just about identical.

I don't know why you're taking all of this so personally. No one really cares what guitars you play or why, not sure why you care so much about why others aren't into Kiesel.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

MaxOfMetal said:


> Like I said, I miss Carvin the _company_ not Carvin's products specifically.
> 
> I ordered six Carvins over the years, three had problems, and customer service was great, so even though the product wasn't perfect, they always made it right. Today, I don't think Kiesel would do that, so I'm staying away.
> 
> Not sure where you're getting your info, Carvin offered stainless steel frets. They also let you send your pickups in as far back as the early 00's. Those aren't Kiesel additions.
> 
> I also don't think that the guitars now are made any better. At all. I've played and worked on tons of Carvins and have tried out several newer Kiesel models, and quality is just about identical.
> 
> I don't know why you're taking all of this so personally. No one really cares what guitars you play or why, not sure why you care so much about why others aren't into Kiesel.



I just got just my info from the first 1-4 page of this thread. 

When you collectively started saying that you missed Carvin, I found that a little perplexing because I recalled a good deal for griping about Carvin based on the customization limitations and lack of evolution via consumer input, so I read a few pages of this thread just to see what the consensus was then, and got my information from that and my own old man memory. There's a post on page like, 2-3 saying they wouldn't accept consumer pickups, and another saying they didn't offer SS frets. 

You'll have to forgive me for being so argumentative. I've seen threads bashing pretty much any brand you can think of, for any reason you can think of, and generally I have no problem with it, actually find it funny, but while your reasoning (don't trust their service based on reports of bad service) is perfectly reasonable, if perhaps a bit paranoid, a lot of the griping is peculiar to me and I'm simply addressing it. 

Like you said dude, you're allowed to like/dislike pretty much anything, and that's fair, enough. Similarly, I think it's reasonable that like, one person in the Kiesel thread is going to point out when the reasoning is silly and defend them. 

But yeah, this is a whole thing, I feel you.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Lord Voldemort said:


> I just got just my info from the first 1-4 page of this thread.
> 
> When you collectively started saying that you missed Carvin, I found that a little perplexing because I recalled a good deal for griping about Carvin based on the customization limitations and lack of evolution via consumer input, so I read a few pages of this thread just to see what the consensus was then, and got my information from that and my own old man memory. There's a post on page like, 2-3 saying they wouldn't accept consumer pickups, and another saying they didn't offer SS frets.
> 
> You'll have to forgive me for being so argumentative. I've seen threads bashing pretty much any brand you can think of, for any reason you can think of, and generally I have no problem with it, actually find it funny, but while your reasoning (don't trust their service based on reports of bad service) is perfectly reasonable, if perhaps a bit paranoid, a lot of the griping is peculiar to me and I'm simply addressing it.
> 
> Like you said dude, you're allowed to like/dislike pretty much anything, and that's fair, enough. Similarly, I think it's reasonable that like, one person in the Kiesel thread is going to point out when the reasoning is silly and defend them.
> 
> But yeah, this is a whole thing, I feel you.



Yeah, not sure what people were going on about in regards to stainless steel frets. There used to be an upcharge ($20 to $40), and recently they became standard, so that's probably what folks are referring to. Pickups was a situation where they typically only did it on a customer by customer basis, and depending on how busy they were they'd sometimes turn down the request.

Folks will always want more options. 

I don't think Carvin every really ignored requests as much as their demographics skewed more toward the Strat/Tele/LP crowd, so those models tended to get the increased options and variants. Kiesel had moved more towards the ERG crowd, while their more traditional options have mostly stagnated. I know it peeved a lot of the older generation Carvin fans when they axed some of the legacy Carvin models.

I've said it before: Carvin and Kiesel are two different companies. You have different management supervising different employees while making different guitars with different tools in a different facility for a different customer. Kiesel is as much Carvin as we are our parents. The DNA is there, and there is similarity, but a different thing.

I think there's a difference between defending a brand over subjective issues and objective ones. If someone says Kiesels are ugly, sure. But real people have had real bad experiences, and there's no way to make that go away.


----------



## fps

Lord Voldemort said:


> I just got just my info from the first 1-4 page of this thread.
> 
> When you collectively started saying that you missed Carvin, I found that a little perplexing because I recalled a good deal for griping about Carvin based on the customization limitations and lack of evolution via consumer input, so I read a few pages of this thread just to see what the consensus was then, and got my information from that and my own old man memory. There's a post on page like, 2-3 saying they wouldn't accept consumer pickups, and another saying they didn't offer SS frets.
> 
> You'll have to forgive me for being so argumentative. I've seen threads bashing pretty much any brand you can think of, for any reason you can think of, and generally I have no problem with it, actually find it funny, but while your reasoning (don't trust their service based on reports of bad service) is perfectly reasonable, if perhaps a bit paranoid, a lot of the griping is peculiar to me and I'm simply addressing it.
> 
> Like you said dude, you're allowed to like/dislike pretty much anything, and that's fair, enough. Similarly, I think it's reasonable that like, one person in the Kiesel thread is going to point out when the reasoning is silly and defend them.
> 
> But yeah, this is a whole thing, I feel you.



A lot of the griping on a forum like this is from people who don't even have any intention of ordering the product. Like people who complain Gibson isn't doing multi-scale 7 strings.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

fps said:


> A lot of the griping on a forum like this is from people who don't even have any intention of ordering the product. Like people who complain Gibson isn't doing multi-scale 7 strings.



I'll just say my gripes are completely legitimate and I have ordered 2 of their guitars. So yeah, just clarifying.


----------



## fps

MatiasTolkki said:


> I'll just say my gripes are completely legitimate and I have ordered 2 of their guitars. So yeah, just clarifying.



"a lot of the griping"


----------



## jco5055

There’s something about Kissel, like no matter what they make I feel like there’s a “kiesel filter” for lack of a better word that makes me like every design a little less...like I don’t know if it’s the shapes, or the color options, or the top woods or what but there’s something that always drops my rating of each guitar like a point (purely from looks not playability).

Kudos to Jeff though for managing to do a good job of endorsing a ton of guitarists who aren’t the “can raise a family comfortably from the $$ of being a fulltime musician” levels of fame and success...I feel like every up and coming band starts using kiesels.

I do echo what someone said earlier, that the new Lee sig model is my favorite design yet and I think they’re a few designs away from making a legit “I must have it” design.

I do wish they were a little cheaper, I know they already are cheaper compared to similarly spec’d guitars but I want one whose most basic features would be sub $1000 or so


----------



## A-Branger

Lord Voldemort said:


> but fuck up once in a while *and are dicks about it.*



you could be wright about everything else, but is those words that you said it yourself that would bring down their name the way it has done. Yes a company can have a fuck up, thats normal, no one is 100% perfect. But its not about the fuck up, but how you handle such fuck up. And thats whats been the problem with the people in this forum I have been reading about. The simplest mistakes that could be easily fixed but instead they choose to use the wrong words and attitude about it, specially with a few long term customers


----------



## Jonathan20022

You know it's actually baffling to see people come in and defend Kiesel this much, but I remember when I used to do the same when I was buying them.

Just remember, that all those great experiences can turn sour really quick when you butt heads with Jeff and upper management. Hopefully that never happens to you all, but if it does and you're stuck cornered with no reasonable solution don't say we didn't tell you so.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Alrighty.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

Lord Voldemort said:


> Haha, this has been an interesting experience, I'm almost afraid to post my opinions here because I've only had good experiences with Kiesel/Carvin and I genuinely think they're awesome. But, this is a forum, this is what you're supposed to do I guess.
> 
> That said, you guys really miss the Carvin days? When you couldn't change the pickups without routing and they wouldn't let you send in your own, had to settle for 25.5 scale length, no SS frets, only had one headless model that's pretty literally a tiny little rectangle with pickup rings and a single horn? If you read the first bit of this thread, which is 7-8 years old, the consensus seems to be that Carvin made decent, if unremarkable guitars for a cheap price. Now, it seems that Kiesel makes fantastic and beautiful guitars for a higher price, but fuck up once in a while and are dicks about it.
> 
> But you have more customization options all across the board, more streamlined features, and apparently a better made product in general. A few years ago, people would gripe that Carvin wouldn't do a bunch of things, like extended scale length, SS frets, Multiscale, pickup measurements being off and not being flexible, etc.
> 
> Now, they literally listened to all that feedback, added the options requested and now you miss Carvin.
> 
> Fuck my life.
> 
> Is there like, video of Jeff saying racist things or something? I'll be honest, I've never even heard the dude talk besides a factory tour video. How did he hurt you all?



Definitely don't be afraid to post your opinions; your posts just came off a bit "I'm right, you're wrong and that's just a fact," so you got kind of a cold response. Lots of guys around here still love Kiesel, lots of us that dislike Kiesel still like a lot of things about Kiesel, I still post in and like Kiesel NGDs. It's not like anyone is going to fault you for enjoying Kiesel's instruments. And I'm definitely not gunna deny the fact that they do make some bitchin' guitars.

Apart from what Max said about Carvin the company vs Kiesel the company, I don't seem to recall Carvin being anywhere near as limited as you're painting here. I can very easily be incorrect since I never ordered one, but I seem to remember _seeing_ extended scale, SS fret Carvins with all kinds of other different variants. Either way though, my main gripe is similar to what you've heard so far- the things I heard about Carvin were "If you order a Carvin, 100% guaranteed you will get a guitar better than what you paid for," I _*never*_ heard any horror stories about Carvin. I used to look them as a higher end Agile. They'll get you what you want, and they'll get it to you at a damn good value. Losing that rep has got to be rough.

Actually, that's a good example. Without their reputation, I think Agile would really struggle. Think about how you'd feel about grabbing an Agile if they didn't have the reputation they have for excellent customer service. All of sudden, the possibility of getting a lemon is much more alarming. And while Kiesel will definitely not have anywhere near as many lemons as factory guitars like Agiles, they do cost a whole hell of a lot more.


----------



## spudmunkey

Ordacleaphobia said:


> Apart from what Max said about Carvin the company vs Kiesel the company, I don't seem to recall Carvin being anywhere near as limited as you're painting here. I can very easily be incorrect since I never ordered one, but I seem to remember _seeing_ extended scale, SS fret Carvins with all kinds of other different variants.



I think it's important to know that Kiesel has only been around for 4 years in it's modern incarnation, but "Carvin" as most of us know it went unchanged for 35 years...but started to expand and experiment a bit more much more recently. While Jeff's Q&A videos and their official "separation" video (when they split from Carvin Audio) might have been most of our first exposures from Jeff, I think it's obvious that him being a VP of the company didn't happen that day...he had likely been partnering with his dad for years. In conversation in his videos, Jeff mentions he's been working in the shop, developing his color treatment, etc for years. I have to assume as Jeff developed within the company structure that his tastes had more of a hand in product development. Would Mark have done an 8-string without Jeff's involvement? I believe not, honestly. Would he have done a 7? I have my doubts, actually, with as much of a traditionalist that Mark is (not to take anything away from his visionary busines model).

tl;dr: I think the era of "Carvin" being flexible likely was due to Jeff's involvement in the first place, after decades of NOT being very flexible.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

spudmunkey said:


> I think it's important to know that Kiesel has only been around for 4 years in it's modern incarnation, but "Carvin" as most of us know it went unchanged for 35 years...but started to expand and experiment a bit more much more recently. While Jeff's Q&A videos and their official "separation" video (when they split from Carvin Audio) might have been most of our first exposures from Jeff, I think it's obvious that him being a VP of the company didn't happen that day...he had likely been partnering with his dad for years. In conversation in his videos, Jeff mentions he's been working in the shop, developing his color treatment, etc for years. I have to assume as Jeff developed within the company structure that his tastes had more of a hand in product development. Would Mark have done an 8-string without Jeff's involvement? I believe not, honestly. Would he have done a 7? I have my doubts, actually, with as much of a traditionalist that Mark is (not to take anything away from his visionary busines model).
> 
> tl;dr: I think the era of "Carvin" being flexible likely was due to Jeff's involvement in the first place, after decades of NOT being very flexible.



Totally plausible. I'm also just going to say that I don't "blame" Jeff for anything. I certainly don't think he helps things with his attitude sometimes, but I don't blame him.
A company as large as Kiesel is complicated to run and no one person has total say in anything. 

At the end of the day we're all outsiders looking in, so all we can really do is voice what we (dis)like and hope that the powers that be listen.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> I think it's important to know that Kiesel has only been around for 4 years in it's modern incarnation, but "Carvin" as most of us know it went unchanged for 35 years...but started to expand and experiment a bit more much more recently. While Jeff's Q&A videos and their official "separation" video (when they split from Carvin Audio) might have been most of our first exposures from Jeff, I think it's obvious that him being a VP of the company didn't happen that day...he had likely been partnering with his dad for years. In conversation in his videos, Jeff mentions he's been working in the shop, developing his color treatment, etc for years. I have to assume as Jeff developed within the company structure that his tastes had more of a hand in product development. Would Mark have done an 8-string without Jeff's involvement? I believe not, honestly. Would he have done a 7? I have my doubts, actually, with as much of a traditionalist that Mark is (not to take anything away from his visionary busines model).
> 
> tl;dr: I think the era of "Carvin" being flexible likely was due to Jeff's involvement in the first place, after decades of NOT being very flexible.



I miss when Jeff had to answer to Mark.


----------



## Albake21

Ordacleaphobia said:


> Totally plausible. I'm also just going to say that I don't "blame" Jeff for anything. I certainly don't think he helps things with his attitude sometimes, but I don't blame him.
> A company as large as Kiesel is complicated to run and no one person has total say in anything.
> 
> At the end of the day we're all outsiders looking in, so all we can really do is voice what we (dis)like and hope that the powers that be listen.


As much as I love Kiesel and their guitars, I 100% blame Jeff. He is absolutely the cause of 90% of the hate Kiesel (the company) gets.


----------



## DudeManBrother

I think people underestimate the power of such self-centered egoism (see also: narcissism). The attitude Jeff portrays attracts a lot of attention. He thinks he’s the best in the game and nobody can touch his brand. Time and time again it’s shown that these personality types can flourish. 

Look at Floyd Mayweather Jr., Conor McGregor, and Takashi 6ix9ine for recent examples. They’re easy to dislike, yet entertaining and interesting enough to check in on once in a while. Even if you just want to watch them take an L, they still receive that attention and energy. It’s not the most common approach, but cannot be dismissed as ineffective either.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> I miss when Jeff had to answer to Mark.


----------



## lewis

i really really like the new headless sig models for Lee in Born of Osiris.


----------



## spudmunkey

Same. It's definitely my favorite headless model from them, and even the wacky colors they picked for the first two showcase builds, while not something I would ever order, really struck a chord with me and seemed to fit certain aesthetic I have in my head combined with stage lighting, etc.

That said, I'm still not 100% sold on a couple things with their headless models... I'll not that I've never owned one, and only touched one for about 6 minutes in a GC.

1) I appreciate that the headpiece is so so so compact...but I see occasional but regular complaints of strings breaking off at the screw. I don't actually know this for sure, but does the set/grub screw directly touch the string, or is there a plate there that squeezes and protects the string from the rotating screw? I would give up a little mass and volume to get something that seems to be less "hard" on the strings by incorporating some sort of captive "vise" plate inside it. Perhaps they could also incorporate even just a subtle neck volute on the back of the neck, if the headpiece were a little longer...but that's minor, and perhaps not having a volute is something one gets used to over time. 2) The trem. I don't have any experience with it, but I just can't help but feel like there's a better way to actually attach the spring into the bridge, and also to attach the arm. As someone who used to keep all of my guitars in their cases, having a set screw to hold the arm in place with a metal-to-metal contact seems like it would be a PITA (not the Mediterranean bread) for someone who has to take the arm out frequently.


----------



## Cynicanal

MaxOfMetal said:


> I miss when Jeff had to answer to Mark.


Do you think he doesn't today?  Jeff may be "in charge of the company" on paper, but Mark is still his dad, and I know that parental disappointment stings a lot more now in my 30s than it ever did as a kid...


----------



## Señor Voorhees

spudmunkey said:


> Same. It's definitely my favorite headless model from them, and even the wacky colors they picked for the first two showcase builds, while not something I would ever order, really struck a chord with me and seemed to fit certain aesthetic I have in my head combined with stage lighting, etc.
> 
> That said, I'm still not 100% sold on a couple things with their headless models... I'll not that I've never owned one, and only touched one for about 6 minutes in a GC.
> 
> 1) I appreciate that the headpiece is so so so compact...but I see occasional but regular complaints of strings breaking off at the screw. I don't actually know this for sure, but does the set/grub screw directly touch the string, or is there a plate there that squeezes and protects the string from the rotating screw? I would give up a little mass and volume to get something that seems to be less "hard" on the strings by incorporating some sort of captive "vise" plate inside it. Perhaps they could also incorporate even just a subtle neck volute on the back of the neck, if the headpiece were a little longer...but that's minor, and perhaps not having a volute is something one gets used to over time. 2) The trem. I don't have any experience with it, but I just can't help but feel like there's a better way to actually attach the spring into the bridge, and also to attach the arm. As someone who used to keep all of my guitars in their cases, having a set screw to hold the arm in place with a metal-to-metal contact seems like it would be a PITA (not the Mediterranean bread) for someone who has to take the arm out frequently.



As far as the headpiece goes, it makes direct contact. If you tighten it too much, you can accidentally cut the string. I've done it before, and it's super easy to avoid. You really don't want them tight. Essentially, as soon as you feel resistance, it's probably tight enough. If you snug it up too much, you will have issues. 

My first set of strings I had on my Vader were there for roughly a year. They sounded and felt like ass, but there was no breakage despite being super old and rusty.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Cynicanal said:


> Do you think he doesn't today? Jeff may be "in charge of the company" on paper, but Mark is still his dad, and I know that parental disappointment stings a lot more now in my 30s than it ever did as a kid...



Chill dude, it was a joke.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

DudeManBrother said:


> I think people underestimate the power of such self-centered egoism (see also: narcissism). The attitude Jeff portrays attracts a lot of attention. He thinks he’s the best in the game and nobody can touch his brand. Time and time again it’s shown that these personality types can flourish.
> 
> Look at Floyd Mayweather Jr., Conor McGregor, and Takashi 6ix9ine for recent examples. They’re easy to dislike, yet entertaining and interesting enough to check in on once in a while. Even if you just want to watch them take an L, they still receive that attention and energy. It’s not the most common approach, but cannot be dismissed as ineffective either.


In pro wrestling terms, they'd all be considered "heels", ie "people you love to hate". The Rock was a heel way back in the day.


----------



## spudmunkey

The Rock's WWF/E persona? You mean the self-proclaimed "the most electrifying man in sports entertainment" had an ego?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

spudmunkey said:


> The Rock's WWF/E persona? You mean the self-proclaimed "the most electrifying man in sports entertainment" had an ego?


yeah, back when he had sideburns and beat a handcuffed mick foley with a folding chair in front of his crying family (the hits were very real according to later interviews).


----------



## Seabeast2000

Are you guys saying we need a ERG FF Headless Themed Pro Wrestler? What would his name be?


----------



## gunch

KVM6 and SCBM6 are actually pretty clean looking with solid colors but at the same time 













lmao Jeff Keisel


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

The906 said:


> Are you guys saying we need a ERG FF Headless Themed Pro Wrestler? What would his name be?



The Kvltmaster.
His signature move is called "The Beveler"


----------



## xzacx

DudeManBrother said:


> I think people underestimate the power of such self-centered egoism (see also: narcissism). The attitude Jeff portrays attracts a lot of attention. He thinks he’s the best in the game and nobody can touch his brand. Time and time again it’s shown that these personality types can flourish.
> 
> Look at Floyd Mayweather Jr., Conor McGregor, and Takashi 6ix9ine for recent examples. They’re easy to dislike, yet entertaining and interesting enough to check in on once in a while. Even if you just want to watch them take an L, they still receive that attention and energy. It’s not the most common approach, but cannot be dismissed as ineffective either.



I agree with a lot of this other than the Floyd comparison. That’d be more like if Leo Fender behaved like Jeff. Floyd’s resume has earned him the right to pretty much say whatever he wants. Conor and Takashi, however, I think you nailed it. I watch Conor fight just to see him loose, kinda like I watch Jeff’s videos just to hear him say dumb stuff. Love them or hate them, I’m paying attention.


----------



## Cynicanal

Ordacleaphobia said:


> The Kvltmaster.


I don't see Aleister Black playing a headless TBH.


----------



## DudeManBrother

Ordacleaphobia said:


> The Kvltmaster.
> His signature move is called "The Beveler"


Has to be the Shockmaster. Biggest abortion ever recorded maybe outside of Planned Parenthood CCTV


----------



## laxu

spudmunkey said:


> I think it's important to know that Kiesel has only been around for 4 years in it's modern incarnation, but "Carvin" as most of us know it went unchanged for 35 years...but started to expand and experiment a bit more much more recently. While Jeff's Q&A videos and their official "separation" video (when they split from Carvin Audio) might have been most of our first exposures from Jeff, I think it's obvious that him being a VP of the company didn't happen that day...he had likely been partnering with his dad for years. In conversation in his videos, Jeff mentions he's been working in the shop, developing his color treatment, etc for years. I have to assume as Jeff developed within the company structure that his tastes had more of a hand in product development. Would Mark have done an 8-string without Jeff's involvement? I believe not, honestly. Would he have done a 7? I have my doubts, actually, with as much of a traditionalist that Mark is (not to take anything away from his visionary busines model).
> 
> tl;dr: I think the era of "Carvin" being flexible likely was due to Jeff's involvement in the first place, after decades of NOT being very flexible.



It was an incredibly smart move for them to pivot the brand towards modern metal guitarists. It's not like they weren't making superstrats before but before the Kiesel brand they were not on the radar for a lot of people as an option to say Ibanez or ESP.

A lot of their new designs have been very divisive. When the Aries was released I felt it had a weird lopsided top and who the hell makes a block heel in 2018? Around that time I started looking into getting a 7-string superstrat. At first I was set on hunting down a nice Ibanez RG7 but started looking into the Kiesel Aries AM7 more and suddenly it started to make a lot more sense to me. Now I own one and it's one of my best guitars. It plays like butter, it has exceptional clarity, the beveled top (and matching back carve) makes it very comfortable to hold and the block heel is surprisingly the least noticeable bolt-on heel I've ever tried. At the same time I don't like the Osiris and Zeus headless designs at all. I'm sure they work just like my Aries does but I can't find them aesthetically appealing while I do like the Vader.

I watched Jeff's videos when I first started looking into Kiesel and I liked them. They came across as good communication to the users, presenting how Kiesel does things. Jeff felt like an alright, no nonsense dude. Then as the videos got more popular I started seeing things that I did not like. Jeff started mentioning how they do things "the right way" while their competitors don't, he started calling out some people for criticising aspects of the designs or not being happy with the way their guitars turned out. Haven't bothered watching his stuff since because I feel they have become just ego boosting efforts for him while at the same time the brand has gone back on some of the good things they had like a decent return policy. Now more and more things make the guitars non-returnable and even their NAMM efforts are sold at full price despite probably being somewhat banged up from being tested by a lot of people.


----------



## spudmunkey

DudeManBrother said:


> Has to be the Shockmaster. Biggest abortion ever recorded maybe outside of Planned Parenthood CCTV




I'll have you know that this post sent me down an entertaining "WWF/WWE/WCW dissasters" rabbit hole that lasted for nearly an hour, and likely ruined my YouTube "suggested video" feed for weeks.


----------



## Cynicanal

spudmunkey said:


> I'll have you know that this post sent me down an entertaining "WWF/WWE/WCW dissasters" rabbit hole that lasted for nearly an hour, and likely ruined my YouTube "suggested video" feed for weeks.


Google "botchamania".


----------



## xzacx

spudmunkey said:


> I'll have you know that this post sent me down an entertaining "WWF/WWE/WCW dissasters" rabbit hole that lasted for nearly an hour, and likely ruined my YouTube "suggested video" feed for weeks.



Private windows aren't _just_ for hiding things you shouldn't be up to.


----------



## spudmunkey

xzacx said:


> Private windows aren't _just_ for hiding things you shouldn't be up to.



Yeah, I was just making a joke as one can simply remove the videos from your history and then they are no longer factored into your personal algorithm.


----------



## xzacx

spudmunkey said:


> Yeah, I was just making a joke as one can simply remove the videos from your history and then they are no longer factored into your personal algorithm.



I didn’t know that! I’ve really had this happen and started using the private window when I want to prevent it hahah.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

I'm just going to go ahead and drop a story about what I thought was a great customer service move. I had 2 guitars on order. One finished up and sat inthe shop for a month. I had a finanical emergency and had to cancel the one. Instead of being dicks, they moved the deposit amount I had already paid which frankly they did NOT have to do. They moved it to the other build taking it down to a more manageable amount. I ended up having to cancel that one too but that was a good move on their part.


spudmunkey said:


> I'll have you know that this post sent me down an entertaining "WWF/WWE/WCW dissasters" rabbit hole that lasted for nearly an hour, and likely ruined my YouTube "suggested video" feed for weeks.


MY boy I must teach you the ways of Google Incognito. Then your own brain will not register what you are doing.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

So i have a question for anyone who actually has the active pre-amp in their guitars (NOT basses):

I am thinking of trying different pickups in my JB200, just because i can, and I've gotten my hands on a wiring diagram but has anyone ever done a pup change with the old carvin active preamp? Based on the diagram I've seen (which is pretty old to be fair) it looks like it's a massive pain in the ass so if anyone can guide me through it I'd be massively grateful


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> I think it's important to know that Kiesel has only been around for 4 years in it's modern incarnation, but "Carvin" as most of us know it went unchanged for 35 years...but started to expand and experiment a bit more much more recently. While Jeff's Q&A videos and their official "separation" video (when they split from Carvin Audio) might have been most of our first exposures from Jeff, I think it's obvious that him being a VP of the company didn't happen that day...he had likely been partnering with his dad for years. In conversation in his videos, Jeff mentions he's been working in the shop, developing his color treatment, etc for years. I have to assume as Jeff developed within the company structure that his tastes had more of a hand in product development. Would Mark have done an 8-string without Jeff's involvement? I believe not, honestly. Would he have done a 7? I have my doubts, actually, with as much of a traditionalist that Mark is (not to take anything away from his visionary busines model).
> 
> tl;dr: I think the era of "Carvin" being flexible likely was due to Jeff's involvement in the first place, after decades of NOT being very flexible.




T mac had seven strings when he was touring with Steve Vai back in the early 00s, and current Kiesel Endorser Kaz Horie and the leader of the band Vigilante Oomoto Hiroshi, both bought DC700s WAY back in the early 00s. Mark was into 7 strings, maybe not 8, because history seems to have proven you a bit wrong there.


----------



## cardinal

The thing with Kiesel/Carvin, a lot of bad customer service stories I hear about them definitely sound like a case of stepping over dollars to pick up pennies, but it’s at least plausible that while their recent “sharp” customer service habits are costing them some sales (made me nervious to order!), it could still be the better business decision in the aggregate if they have tons of people out there jerking them around, which only they would really know.


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> T mac had seven strings when he was touring with Steve Vai back in the early 00s, and current Kiesel Endorser Kaz Horie and the leader of the band Vigilante Oomoto Hiroshi, both bought DC700s WAY back in the early 00s. Mark was into 7 strings, maybe not 8, because history seems to have proven you a bit wrong there.



My point is that Jeff may already have had influence on the product offering for years before his current role. It's just speculation, clearly, but he would have been in his 20s, then... is it implausible that Jeff was listening to bands like Vai or even Korn, and pushed, "Dad, you should totally make a sick 7 string... check out all of these bands that use them! It would be rad. "


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> So i have a question for anyone who actually has the active pre-amp in their guitars (NOT basses):
> 
> I am thinking of trying different pickups in my JB200, just because i can, and I've gotten my hands on a wiring diagram but has anyone ever done a pup change with the old carvin active preamp? Based on the diagram I've seen (which is pretty old to be fair) it looks like it's a massive pain in the ass so if anyone can guide me through it I'd be massively grateful



The pickups themselves just have 4 wires that would needed to be hooked up whether it's passive or active. Once you look at it like that, it's simply a matter of making sure you know which color wires do what from each company, and change them one at a time.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

spudmunkey said:


> My point is that Jeff may already have had influence on the product offering for years before his current role. It's just speculation, clearly, but he would have been in his 20s, then... is it implausible that Jeff was listening to bands like Vai or even Korn, and pushed, "Dad, you should totally make a sick 7 string... check out all of these bands that use them! It would be rad. "


jeff listening to korn/limp bizkit is now canon. Anyone who dresses like a cholo and uses the word rad unironically was clearly a nu-metal boii.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> The pickups themselves just have 4 wires that would needed to be hooked up whether it's passive or active. Once you look at it like that, it's simply a matter of making sure you know which color wires do what from each company, and change them one at a time.



ah okay. I'm a little scared of doing it myself just because I've never done pup swaps before and with all that extra crap to worry about i'd probably find a way to mess it up :/


----------



## BLD

My two pennies...

I just ordered and received a Kiesel recently and am very satisfied. I didn’t even know of the horror stories until after I had ordered and paid in full... I do say that some of them sound pretty bad and I can see people being upset.

None of my options were non returnable, and yet they were adament about ensuring I had orderd what I wanted prior to building. I thought this was cool because there were a couple features I was on the fence about. In fact my rep was very responsive and cool to deal with theough the entire process (I called to ask a bunch of rookie questions and ended up ordering over the phone).

Ultimately, I am very impressed with the build quality, and the customer service I received. Even after my order was received, they were quick to respond to my emails. My guitar arrived a couple weeks ahead of their estimated completion date and is rock solid... everything I had hoped for and more!


----------



## USMarine75

^ For old school Carvin fans... guitarist Daniele Gottardo is playing Jason Becker's original blue Carvin JB200, and the other guitarist Andrew Jay is playing a newer orange Carvin one.


----------



## Jeff

BLD said:


> My two pennies...
> 
> I just ordered and received a Kiesel recently and am very satisfied. I didn’t even know of the horror stories until after I had ordered and paid in full... I do say that some of them sound pretty bad and I can see people being upset.
> 
> None of my options were non returnable, and yet they were adament about ensuring I had orderd what I wanted prior to building. I thought this was cool because there were a couple features I was on the fence about. In fact my rep was very responsive and cool to deal with theough the entire process (I called to ask a bunch of rookie questions and ended up ordering over the phone).
> 
> Ultimately, I am very impressed with the build quality, and the customer service I received. Even after my order was received, they were quick to respond to my emails. My guitar arrived a couple weeks ahead of their estimated completion date and is rock solid... everything I had hoped for and more!



Who was your rep? Might be helpful to shine light on the people being positive and helpful. I’d really love to give them a try again, but A. Some of the stories are scary, and B. Jeff comes off as a full-on douchebag every single time a camera is pointed at him.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Jeff said:


> Who was your rep? Might be helpful to shine light on the people being positive and helpful. I’d really love to give them a try again, but A. Some of the stories are scary, and B. Jeff comes off as a full-on douchebag every single time a camera is pointed at him.



go through Chris. He is so helpful and will get everything down perfect... If you're gonna order.


----------



## BLD

Jeff said:


> Who was your rep? Might be helpful to shine light on the people being positive and helpful. I’d really love to give them a try again, but A. Some of the stories are scary, and B. Jeff comes off as a full-on douchebag every single time a camera is pointed at him.


I dealt with Chris, and as stated above he was great to work with. I feel for some of those horror stories, but am happy I took the plunge!

As for how people look on tape, I can’t really cast any stones here... I’ve seen myself before on old wakeboarding and motorcycle home vids. I don’t act like that anymore, but the memories are there for all to see. It’s a strong reminder of what others see lol!


----------



## Bdtunn

I’ve had two great builds through Chris as well.
But I can’t give Jeff any more of my money moving forward.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

BLD said:


> My two pennies...
> 
> I just ordered and received a Kiesel recently and am very satisfied. I didn’t even know of the horror stories until after I had ordered and paid in full... I do say that some of them sound pretty bad and I can see people being upset.
> 
> None of my options were non returnable, and yet they were adament about ensuring I had orderd what I wanted prior to building. I thought this was cool because there were a couple features I was on the fence about. In fact my rep was very responsive and cool to deal with theough the entire process (I called to ask a bunch of rookie questions and ended up ordering over the phone).
> 
> Ultimately, I am very impressed with the build quality, and the customer service I received. Even after my order was received, they were quick to respond to my emails. My guitar arrived a couple weeks ahead of their estimated completion date and is rock solid... everything I had hoped for and more!



HNGD my dude. Glad it turned out sick- what'd you order?


----------



## BLD

Ordacleaphobia said:


> HNGD my dude. Glad it turned out sick- what'd you order?


Thanks, I went with a fairly simple gloss black DCM7. Lovin the tung oil neck!


----------



## Lord Voldemort

My Kiesel shipped out today. That was only 4 weeks! 

Soon, the moment of Truth will arrive, and I'll either be basking in my wonderful customer service with my perfect guitar, or I'll be eating my own words with a little ketchup.

Wednesday cannot come sooner.


----------



## spudmunkey

4 weeks?!?! Jeez...I've been seeing that they've been able to crank out the newer bolt-on headless models in like 6 weeks, but 4 is unreal for a guitar made-to-order...that's, like..."8 years ago + the RUSH upgrade" kind of fast.


----------



## technomancer

Lord Voldemort said:


> My Kiesel shipped out today. That was only 4 weeks!
> 
> Soon, the moment of Truth will arrive, and I'll either be basking in my wonderful customer service with my perfect guitar, or I'll be eating my own words with a little ketchup.
> 
> Wednesday cannot come sooner.



Good luck, hopefully your guitar kicks ass 

Also, yes that is ridiculously fast.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

technomancer said:


> Good luck, hopefully your guitar kicks ass
> 
> Also, yes that is ridiculously fast.



That level of speed is worrisome though. Thats amazingly fast but that level of speed is only usually done at cheap chinese or indonesian factories. Let's hope brother there gets a quality instrument.


----------



## Hollowway

MatiasTolkki said:


> That level of speed is worrisome though. Thats amazingly fast but that level of speed is only usually done at cheap chinese or indonesian factories. Let's hope brother there gets a quality instrument.



Eh, I doubt that's a concern. The way they have the production line dialed in, I'm sure it's just like any other Kiesel. Not to say that means flawless, but I don't think build speed factors in. It might mean they're a little slow right now, though. Either they staffed up to deal with the prior long run times, or their orders have slowed down.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Not to mention all the newest models are bolt-on, which can speed up production time significantly, as the body and neck can be worked on independently until final assembly.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> Not to mention all the newest models are bolt-on, which can speed up production time significantly, as the body and neck can be worked on independently until final assembly.



The necks are also tung oiled by default on bolt-ons, meaning they can be completed even faster.

Like I posted, not that long ago (just a few years), at slower times of the year you could get a guitar shipped in as little as 3 weeks if you paid for RUSH processing. No steps were rushed, you just didn't have to wait between steps. They are too busy to offer that anymore, even after they upped the price from $100 to 10%. The only ones that get it are NAMM builds, artist builds, and special favors for friends, it seems. It used to cut 3 weeks off the leadtime, so if it was 6-8 weeks, it meant 3-5 weeks.

It's like I recently ordered a custom 8ft long, 4ft wide table with cabinets underneath, sliding doors with custom perforated metal, lighting, power and HDMI ports, on wheels. It took them a week to build...but they quoted 8 weeks. It was 6 weeks to order and wait for materials, 1 week for fabrication, 2 days for finishing, then 3 days for assembly. So in theory, if they had all of the wood and hardware in-stock, I could have had it in 2 weeks, including time for finishing.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> The necks are also tung oiled by default on bolt-ons, meaning they can be completed even faster.
> 
> Like I posted, not that long ago, you could get a guitar shipped in as little as 3 weeks if you paid for RUSH processing. No steps were rushed, you just didn't have to wait between steps.
> 
> It's like I recently ordered a custom 8ft long, 4ft wide table with cabinets underneath, sliding doors with custom perforated metal, lighting, power and HDMI ports, on wheels. It took them a week to build...but they quoted 8 weeks. It was 6 weeks to order and wait for materials, 1 week for fabrication, 2 days for finishing, then 3 days for assembly. So in theory, if they had all of the wood and hardware in-stock, I could have had it in 2 weeks, including time for finishing.



They probably have ready-made bodies and necks at this point. Not to mention the headless hardware being a single color from a single vendor. 

Unless you order a really off the wall neck or body they probably have most of the guitar already in process. 

Depending on finish, that's probably the biggest time factor.


----------



## juka

Ordered my Zeus 7 in September and it was built and shipped in only 4 weeks.
Turned out great nevertheless

http://sevenstring.org/threads/ngd-kiesel-zeus-7.332198/

Although they do not seem to have a large storage I assume that with the bolt-on models they try to have at least the most common neck options as blanks in stock, which as mentioned before can speed up overall production times considerably without sacrificing build quality.

As said in my NGD I played PRS (AP and PS level) for more than 10 years exclusively and my Z7 is absolutely on par.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Mike told me when I initially called him to place the order that they'd been hitting ridiculously fast build times on builds like mine (which was a basic OS6, antique ash, raw tone finish) and could see mine being made much quicker than the quoted 8-10 weeks.

I also saw a picture they uploaded on Facebook of it, and it looks super clean and I'm super stoked. It was hard to get to sleep last night, dang.


----------



## spudmunkey

The raw tone finish helps, too...even if it's the same finish as their normal satin, it's still several coats thinner that don't need to have to first dry, then wait around for the next batch to go into the booth, then dry again, then, etc.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Lord Voldemort said:


> Mike told me when I initially called him to place the order that they'd been hitting ridiculously fast build times on builds like mine (which was a basic OS6, antique ash, raw tone finish) and could see mine being made much quicker than the quoted 8-10 weeks.
> 
> I also saw a picture they uploaded on Facebook of it, and it looks super clean and I'm super stoked. It was hard to get to sleep last night, dang.



Glad it seems yours is in good nick, definitely post pics and an overall review of it, both good and bad. 

I've been focusing on my jb200 a lot lately tbh, and I'm still happy with it this many years later. I will admit though that I havent played a whole lot lately because I've also been back into building models recently and staring at my Japanese green card, because it just makes me so happy that I finally got it.


----------



## Jeff

I wonder why the raw tone makes it non-returnable. It’s a cool finish.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Jeff said:


> I wonder why the raw tone makes it non-returnable. It’s a cool finish.



It's a lot more fragile than a traditional poly finish.


----------



## Jeff

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's a lot more fragile than a traditional poly finish.



Makes sense I guess. So is a tung oil finish, and that’s returnable.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Jeff said:


> Makes sense I guess.



It does make some sense, but I also think that at this point they'll make any fairly popular option non-returnable. They're slowly chipping away at the old policy without directly saying they don't want to honor it anymore.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

Lord Voldemort said:


> Wednesday cannot come sooner.



Oh man, I am so sorry for the hell you are in right now 
At least it's not a Friday delivery date so you don't have to play the "is it coming today? Or am I waiting till Monday?" game.


----------



## Hollowway

Ordacleaphobia said:


> Oh man, I am so sorry for the hell you are in right now
> At least it's not a Friday delivery date so you don't have to play the "is it coming today? Or am I waiting till Monday?" game.



Oh man, that’s the WORST! I had a scare like that. The Fedex guy was “out for delivery,” on the Friday I was supposed to receive the guitar, so I sat on the couch near the door waiting. Then I get a pop up alert saying, “rescheduled. Recipient not home.” I called customer service, and they asked me to read the door tag. I told them there was none. They said the driver took a picture of the door tag, but it was while it was still in the vehicle. They apologized, and said there was no way to contact the driver, as the vans don’t come with anyway to contact him. I called bullshit, and said I know full well the dude has a cell phone, and that they know his number. I said he needs to turn around and bring the package back, and that they should be ashamed that a driver would blatantly lie like that. I thought for sure they’d tell me to pound sand, but they actually made him turn around and bring it to me!


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Hollowway said:


> Oh man, that’s the WORST! I had a scare like that. The Fedex guy was “out for delivery,” on the Friday I was supposed to receive the guitar, so I sat on the couch near the door waiting. Then I get a pop up alert saying, “rescheduled. Recipient not home.” I called customer service, and they asked me to read the door tag. I told them there was none. They said the driver took a picture of the door tag, but it was while it was still in the vehicle. They apologized, and said there was no way to contact the driver, as the vans don’t come with anyway to contact him. I called bullshit, and said I know full well the dude has a cell phone, and that they know his number. I said he needs to turn around and bring the package back, and that they should be ashamed that a driver would blatantly lie like that. I thought for sure they’d tell me to pound sand, but they actually made him turn around and bring it to me!



I don't know why shipping companies act like the delivery van is a merchant vessel in the 1400's.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

glad i live in japan where the driver, if he doesn't call first, leaves his cell number on the not at home notice so i can call him directly.


----------



## spudmunkey

Much of it depends on the driver...both their work ethic, and work load.


----------



## bracky

I’m excited to see it. Hurry up fedex.


----------



## Hollowway

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't know why shipping companies act like the delivery van is a merchant vessel in the 1400's.



 So true. I think Amazon is shaking it up a little, given that they now give you alerts to how many stops the driver has before he reaches your house. That's super cool, because you can go about your day, and when you get that "8 stops away" text, hurry home and wait.


----------



## prlgmnr

Hollowway said:


> So true. I think Amazon is shaking it up a little, given that they now give you alerts to how many stops the driver has before he reaches your house. That's super cool, because you can go about your day, and when you get that "8 stops away" text, hurry home and wait.


And you can have minutes/hours of fun watching them and seeing where they are.

"He's turning down the end of our road now"

"Wait, it looks like he's driven into a field"

"Maybe he's stopped for lunch"


----------



## Hollowway

prlgmnr said:


> And you can have minutes/hours of fun watching them and seeing where they are.
> 
> "He's turning down the end of our road now"
> 
> "Wait, it looks like he's driven into a field"
> 
> "Maybe he's stopped for lunch"



"Hey Mr. Amazon delivery man, I've been expecting you! Hahaha, hope that didn't sound scary! Kind of like an old timey vampire movie! Aaaaanyway, I couldn't help noticing you stopped near the Subway over by the gas station. Do you like Subway! I love it! Not Jared, though. Cuz that dude's weird, am I right? Maybe next time I see you're on the way here, I'll try to meet you if you go to that Subway! We can each order a footlong, and trade halves! I could use a buddy that likes Subway. You done with your route for the day? Where are you off to next? Why are you running away? Probly in a hurry cuz of deliveries, huh! I'll probly order something else, and catch up with you tomorrow! Bye, new friend!"


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Well, it came. Here's a quick phone camera photo, best I can do at the moment:







It's just a great guitar. Beautiful finish, exactly what I had in mind, and the blackest ebony fretboard you'll ever see. It came perfectly set up as well, it didn't travel far to be fair. I'll post more tomorrow with more details and stuff I guess, it's late here, but I'm super happy with it! I had a great experience with them.


----------



## bracky

You make me want to order another. It looks awesome.


----------



## Seabeast2000

That really looks nice.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

Looks sweet dude; I love open grain finishes like that.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Thanks! Yeah it's a nice finish. It's Trans-teal over antique ash. I didn't think Teal in itself would be metal enough, but it's my favorite color so I had them burn it with fire. 

I think the pickups sound quite nice too, I got the Lithium in the bridge and Beryllium in the neck. The Lithium is definitely shrill, though, but if you just cut out upwards of 7k it's a really good sound. It has that mid-range snap for leads, the Lithium does, which is awesome. The Beryllium is nice and creamy, and has a more vintage sound to it, but it's pretty clear sounding with high gain, so your pick attack is still very descernable. I think I made the right call getting that in the neck, if the Lithium neck is anything like the bridge pickup.

Fuck, I dunno what else to say. Frets are great, set-up is ridiculously, I've never played a guitar that doesn't have any buzz at all before, and this hasn't a single buzzy spot yet super low action. Customer service was fine, if unremarkable, though they answered my emails within minutes so that was a plus. 

I'll definitely go back to them in the future.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Also, I posted a comment yesterday on a Facebook music discussion page about how much I liked my Kiesel, and I shit you not, within like 2 minutes there were about 5-8 comments just tearing Kiesel apart for terrible customer service and quality control. Some had pictures and examples and went into heated paragraphs of passionate rhetoric about the brand sucking, it was incredible. It was like this thread, but worse actually.

Kiesel, I feel like I don't even know who you are anymore. All I ever wanted were some bevels and to join the family, via calling your guys.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Lord Voldemort said:


> Also, I posted a comment yesterday on a Facebook music discussion page about how much I liked my Kiesel, and I shit you not, within like 2 minutes there were about 5-8 comments just tearing Kiesel apart for terrible customer service and quality control. Some had pictures and examples and went into heated paragraphs of passionate rhetoric about the brand sucking, it was incredible. It was like this thread, but worse actually.
> 
> Kiesel, I feel like I don't even know who you are anymore. All I ever wanted were some bevels and to join the family, via calling your guys.


 "be good to a customer and they'll tell 5 friends, piss a customer off and they'll tell everyone forever" - some dude


----------



## spudmunkey

Not that it paints a detailed picture, but Google "carvin bad customer service" and there's a fair number of threads all over the interwebs bitching about it from 10+ years ago, often starting with or at least containing "I hear/heard lots of bad stories about customer service issues with Carvin..." Heck, when I bought my first in 2008, it was after an unpleasant experience in the Sacramento store (which wasn't actually operated the same as their other stores...apparently Carvin had no intention on a NorCal store, and some guy (no idea if they already knew him) who lived up there offered to open one, or something along those lines, and then they closed the store when he wanted to retire), and after reading several customer service horror stories.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

spudmunkey said:


> Not that it paints a detailed picture, but Google "carvin bad customer service" and there's a fair number of threads all over the interwebs bitching about it from 10+ years ago, often starting with or at least containing "I hear/heard lots of bad stories about customer service issues with Carvin..." Heck, when I bought my first in 2008, it was after an unpleasant experience in the Sacramento store (which wasn't actually operated the same as their other stores...apparently Carvin had no intention on a NorCal store, and some guy (no idea if they already knew him) who lived up there offered to open one, or something along those lines, and then they closed the store when he wanted to retire), and after reading several customer service horror stories.


If I type in sevenstring, the search result suggestion is "sevenstring kiesel."


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

Lord Voldemort said:


> Kiesel, I feel like I don't even know who you are anymore. All I ever wanted were some bevels and to join the family, via calling your guys.



WONT SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE BEVELS

Yeah though I don't get the hate thirst.
Like I understand wanting to warn people, and I understand sticking to your guns in a discussion, but shitting on someone's parade like that's not cool. Sorry bro. Glad your guitar slays.


----------



## cip 123

Lord Voldemort said:


> All I ever wanted were some bevels and to join the family, via calling your guys.


I love that saying by them. Join the family. 

Unless we send you a shitty guitar, then we'll disown you.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> Not that it paints a detailed picture, but Google "carvin bad customer service" and there's a fair number of threads all over the interwebs bitching about it from 10+ years ago, often starting with or at least containing "I hear/heard lots of bad stories about customer service issues with Carvin..." Heck, when I bought my first in 2008, it was after an unpleasant experience in the Sacramento store (which wasn't actually operated the same as their other stores...apparently Carvin had no intention on a NorCal store, and some guy (no idea if they already knew him) who lived up there offered to open one, or something along those lines, and then they closed the store when he wanted to retire), and after reading several customer service horror stories.



Luckily, I never had that problem because when i went to order my JB200, it was on the suggestion of my mother, who had known of carvin for a long time and was pushing the fact that Vai had been using their amps. I then did some researching on my own and found awesome guitarists like FG and Holdsworth using them, and it helped me rediscover Jason becker, and thats when I went in on the JB200. Actually, I'm considering another JB model, either a 200 or 100, havent decided yet. The v220 was a nice damn guitar but i guess it wasnt for me. Its still hanging around at the shop i sold it at so I'm thinking of going to play it again Sunday and think some more about maybe trying to get it back.


----------



## xzacx

MatiasTolkki said:


> Luckily, I never had that problem because when i went to order my JB200, *it was on the suggestion of my mother, who had known of carvin for a long time and was pushing the fact that Vai had been using their amps.*



This is my favorite plot twist of this entire thread.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

xzacx said:


> This is my favorite plot twist of this entire thread.



Why is that? When i decided to get back into guitar a few years ago, she recommended i go to ibanez first because of Satch, Vai and PG. I am perfectly happy with Ibanez, and she recommended Carvin for "something different."


----------



## xzacx

MatiasTolkki said:


> Why is that? When i decided to get back into guitar a few years ago, she recommended i go to ibanez first because of Satch, Vai and PG. I am perfectly happy with Ibanez, and she recommended Carvin for "something different."



I just thought it was really cool that your mom was up on the amps Steve Vai was using—I’m sure my mom doesn’t even know who that is!


----------



## MatiasTolkki

xzacx said:


> I just thought it was really cool that your mom was up on the amps Steve Vai was using—I’m sure my mom doesn’t even know who that is!



My mom is a total rocker, and she had me young so I became a rocker because of her. When i was in college, I went to soooooooo many concerts with her, Motley crue, Iron maiden (multiple times), Dio, Yngwie, etc. She was also the one who asked me, when i was like 6 or 7, who i wanted to see live and of course at first I said Queen (she raised me right, you can tell  ) but that was impossible so my first concert was Bon Jovi, with opening act skid row, on Bon Jovi's new jersey tour. I dont even remember the year anymore, i just remember i was in the nosebleeds at the Great western forum for that show.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

I forgot who played the national anthem this time, but way back when MTV had a charity baseball tournament every year in LA, and I got to go once. I think Steve Vai might've played then but I have no idea.


----------



## LordCashew

spudmunkey said:


> Heck, when I bought my first in 2008, it was after an unpleasant experience in the Sacramento store (which wasn't actually operated the same as their other stores...apparently Carvin had no intention on a NorCal store, and some guy (no idea if they already knew him) who lived up there offered to open one, or something along those lines, and then they closed the store when he wanted to retire), and after reading several customer service horror stories.



That Sacramento store seemed like a kind of strange situation. The guys there almost made it sound like it was a franchise or something. In fact, I remember Carvin asking for opinions on other possible new store locations around that time. Obviously, the whole concept ended up not working out...

Sorry to hear you had a bad experience there. Those guys were nothing but good to me and were very helpful when handling warranty repair I needed on an amp. Ironically, having access to dozens of Carvin instruments at a time helped me realize they weren't my favorite and put me off the brand, particularly the basses. Still, I was really bummed when the location closed as it was an incredibly convenient source of inexpensive strings and cables, etc.


----------



## spudmunkey

For me, it's a big deal if nobody at a store so much as acknowledges your presence with a "hello" after being in the store for almost 20 minutes. Even in my local suburban wisconsin mom-and-pop, where all of the employees were in bands together and they spent their whole days chatting with each other, they still made everyone feel welcome with a friendly, "Hi!".

Once I did try to talk to someone when it seemed like his conversation with a customer was done, and he said, "yea yeah, I'll be with you in a minute"...but then re-started his chat with someone who brought in an old Gibson and was trying to get a replacement screw for the pickguard mounting bracket. They clearly knew each other and were more-or-less shooting the shit...and then when they were done, he just left.

Someone else came out into the show room after a while, and finally asked me, "Do you need something?" in an annoyed tone. I basically asked for some info on the differences between some of the guitars, and the answer I received was, "Yeah, they're pretty much all different."...and as far as he was concerned, that was the end of the conversation. 

I tried a few more guitars, and found one I sort of liked, and asked him to explain what the long string of alpha-numeric codes were on the price tags. "You want me to look them up, or something?" I said, "I guess...what do they mean? Are they different specs?" "Yep."

I left without buying anything, and ended up diving in head first on my own, to try to figure out what they actually sold. I feel like I shouldn't have had to do so much homework.


----------



## spudmunkey

They just released a multiscale version of their headless Zeus bass.


4-string: 33.5 - 34.5, 7th neutral






5-string: 33.5 - 35", parallel at 7th





6-string: 33.5 - 35", parallel at 7th


----------



## Albake21

My only complaint is I wished they went longer than 35" scale on the low side. At least make the option for a longer scale like a Dingwall. If they did that, Dingwall would have some major competition.


----------



## spudmunkey

When they did the same thing on the Vanqish, they said they did it so that everyone could still use commonly-available string lengths...but since these are headless, you could get away with going longer. 34-35.5 on the 6, maybe?


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

So if you watch the announcement. They are nt available in left handed.

He also said that he is going to be taking the international shipping and calculating it to see if it is worth having for 2019.

So yeahhhhhh, I am not international but still that's sorta lame and I am sure a deciding factor in previous Kiesel purchases for international buyers.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Oh and of course more price increases. They went up twice in 2018


----------



## Albake21

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Oh and of course more price increases. They went up twice in 2018


Yup... sadly this was announced a couple months ago. Eventually he's going to out price himself and lose business. Sorry but 3 price increases within a year is just ridiculous.


----------



## spudmunkey

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> So if you watch the announcement. They are nt available in left handed.
> 
> He also said that he is going to be taking the international shipping and calculating it to see if it is worth having for 2019.
> 
> So yeahhhhhh, I am not international but still that's sorta lame and I am sure a deciding factor in previous Kiesel purchases for international buyers.



Current left handed multiscale guitars are available, but there's no 10-day trial on them. It's possible that putting that extra layer on the already-low-demand on left-handed instruments anyway, sales were low enough that it just wasn't worth their time/effort to do the CNC programming for a left-handed model, and then to get Hipshot to make the tooling for the "backwards" bridge plate (If it was reverseable like individual string bridges, I'd bet they still would have done a lefty model)

I was shocked to hear that international flat-rate shipping was around as long as it was. I mean...it was the same price as shipping within the US, AND they upgraded shipping to I think 3-day shipping, instead of "ground". It was supposed to be a promotion, but it was around for a long-ass time. He's also been saying he can't keep that pricing around forever for...what feels like at least a year.


----------



## spudmunkey

Albake21 said:


> Yup... sadly this was announced a couple months ago. Eventually he's going to out price himself and lose business. Sorry but 3 price increases within a year is just ridiculous.



My primary vendor at work, who has enormous government contracts which have strict rules about contracted pricing, allowable profit and pricing stability, has also had to do 3 this year. I take that back...3, PLUS an additional tarrif surcharge, because domestic material demand is up, so costs are higher even though everything's made here.

Also, in yesterday's Q&A, Jeff's also said their primary koa distributor in Hawaii for the last however-many years has closed up shop. Expect much higher Koa prices, if they have to buy from Taylor.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> Yup... sadly this was announced a couple months ago. Eventually he's going to out price himself and lose business. Sorry but 3 price increases within a year is just ridiculous.




To be fair, he wants to stay in California, and california keeps increasing taxes, like with some stupid text tax being brought up in the state legislature. If he was smart and wanted to keep prices low, he'd move to arizona, where this crap isnt happening.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> So if you watch the announcement. They are nt available in left handed.
> 
> He also said that he is going to be taking the international shipping and calculating it to see if it is worth having for 2019.
> 
> So yeahhhhhh, I am not international but still that's sorta lame and I am sure a deciding factor in previous Kiesel purchases for international buyers.



He said international shipping is going up? Welp, there goes my plans for a new JB200.


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> To be fair, he wants to stay in California, and california keeps increasing taxes, like with some stupid text tax being brought up in the state legislature. If he was smart and wanted to keep prices low, he'd move to arizona, where this crap isnt happening.



I'm sure he'd love the Arizona beaches.

Also, tangent, the text tax is hilariously mis-understood. There's already a tax on phone calls, but people are calling less bringing in MILLIONS less, that was supposed to be for providing service to to the underserved. The "text tax" is ment to fill in a drop in tax revenue that was already being collected a few years ago when people still made phone calls. To make up that money, they planned on adding a text tax...but that's likely not going to happen if it's clarified that texts are "information" and not "telephony" transmissions, which is likely. It'll just end up being some "$0.17/mo CA surchage" on a phone bill.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> I'm sure he'd love the Arizona beaches.
> 
> Also, tangent, the text tax is hilariously mis-understood. There's already a tax on phone calls, but people are calling less bringing in MILLIONS less, that was supposed to be for providing service to to the underserved. The "text tax" is ment to fill in a drop in tax revenue that was already being collected a few years ago when people still made phone calls. To make up that money, they planned on adding a text tax...but that's likely not going to happen if it's clarified that texts are "information" and not "telephony" transmissions, which is likely. It'll just end up being some "$0.17/mo CA surchage" on a phone bill.



Sorry but that tax is just stupid, no matter how you wrap it. Why should people be forced to pay taxes on messages? I dont care if it's to make up for people not making phone calls, that7s not the point. People shouldnt be forced to pay unjust taxes to prop up an idiotic state legislature that is not "for the people."

Who cares about beaches? If you wanna screw customers big time, you keep jacking prices up. I think I'll just have to get my old V220 back because it'll be FAR cheaper to do that than to buy a new kiesel, especially if they are jacking prices up again.


----------



## spudmunkey

Who's "screwing customer's big time"? If he's screwing anyone, he's screwing himself because people won't order. It's in no way "screwing" anyone else, since it's a free market.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> Who's "screwing customer's big time"? If he's screwing anyone, he's screwing himself because people won't order. It's in no way "screwing" anyone else, since it's a free market.



I am a customer, not a business owner. Customers getting screwed by increases in prices because someone doesnt wanna relocate to someplace more business friendly, or cares about superficial things more than making sure he or she has more customers coming in. I was legit considering a JB100 or 200, but if more price increases are coming and shipping is going to cost a LOT more than before, then there's no way i am getting involved in that. Like i said, I'd rather just get my v220 back and try to figure out how to play it with my belly (which, tbh is MUCH smaller than when i sold it, but still needs work) because it would be FAR cheaper.


----------



## Cynicanal

Literally zero customers are getting screwed. If Kiesel charges too much, customers have the option of not buying a Kiesel. Simple.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

spudmunkey said:


> Who's "screwing customer's big time"?



The state of California. 
God I detest this place with every fiber of my existence.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Ordacleaphobia said:


> The state of California.
> God I detest this place with every fiber of my existence.



i'm glad i dont live there anymore.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Eh all the other Cali makers had big price increases this year as well. 

Murica


----------



## MatiasTolkki

diagrammatiks said:


> Eh all the other Cali makers had big price increases this year as well.
> 
> Murica



nah, if they were based in Arizona, this wouldnt be happening. California keeps taxing everyone all the while housing prices are out of control because of Chinese business interests. California is gonna be a failed state soon unless they get some fiscal responsibility.


----------



## diagrammatiks

MatiasTolkki said:


> nah, if they were based in Arizona, this wouldnt be happening. California keeps taxing everyone all the while housing prices are out of control because of Chinese business interests. California is gonna be a failed state soon unless they get some fiscal responsibility.



But it’s arizona


----------



## MatiasTolkki

diagrammatiks said:


> But it’s arizona



hey at least there arent a bunch of BS taxes out there screwing the middle class.


----------



## diagrammatiks

MatiasTolkki said:


> hey at least there arent a bunch of BS taxes out there screwing the middle class.



Saying that and happily living in Japan. 

Irony. What even is it.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

diagrammatiks said:


> Saying that and happily living in Japan.
> 
> Irony. What even is it.



japan doesn't have bs taxes or else i'd be complaining about them, and i'm openly critical of the government


----------



## Jeff

MatiasTolkki said:


> To be fair, he wants to stay in California, and california keeps increasing taxes, like with some stupid text tax being brought up in the state legislature. If he was smart and wanted to keep prices low, he'd move to arizona, where this crap isnt happening.



They could start offering actual baked maple, just by leaving the planks on the sidewalk for twenty minutes.


----------



## Seabeast2000

diagrammatiks said:


> But it’s arizona


HEY!!

I remember small businesses fleeing CA for NV in the 90s, nothing new here. 


Jeff said:


> They could start offering actual baked maple, just by leaving the planks on the sidewalk for twenty minutes.


There's only about a 4 month window where you can really do that. So let the exclusivity and pre-orders begin!


----------



## ramses

spudmunkey said:


> They just released a multiscale version of their headless Zeus bass.
> 
> 
> 5-string: 33.5 - 35", parallel at 7th
> 
> 6-string: 33.5 - 35", parallel at 7th



Too bad it doesn't go up to 36" as their Vanquish model :-(


----------



## spudmunkey

In the launch video, her mentioned the scale length, and it's something he mentioned when they launched their JB multiscale: it's so that it should work without needing expensive specialty strings.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> In the launch video, her mentioned the scale length, and it's something he mentioned when they launched their JB multiscale: it's so that it should work without needing expensive specialty strings.



Expensive? Even using Dingwall strings you're looking at ~$9 of savings, even less if you play something other than the very cheapest Dunlop/D'Addario set available. 

Per usual, the excuses are suspect. 

I guess he can't use the "won't fit in our CNC machine" excuse after talking up their tooling.


----------



## LordCashew

Albake21 said:


> My only complaint is I wished they went longer than 35" scale on the low side. At least make the option for a longer scale like a Dingwall. If they did that, Dingwall would have some major competition.



So much of this. If they were to offer a 37" low B, you'd have a semi-custom, US-made alternative to the Chinese Dingwalls in the same price bracket! Maybe not a "Dingwall killer" _per se_ since Dingwall's proprietary electronics are a big part of their sound. That and the look is totally different.

I'm already in love with how the Carvin/Kiesel MM pickups sound with Audere preamps. If you told me I could put that combo in a 37" multiscale instrument I'd be extremely tempted to make it happen. But I'll probably already have a Dingwall when/if Kiesel offers the option...


----------



## laxu

I’ve been hoping for a Vader multiscale bass but instead they make the ugly Zeus. Meh!


----------



## LordCashew

laxu said:


> I’ve been hoping for a Vader multiscale bass but instead they make the ugly Zeus. Meh!



If the Zeus multi sells well, I imagine they'd make a Vader multi too. They already have the hardware...


----------



## MaxOfMetal

laxu said:


> I’ve been hoping for a Vader multiscale bass but instead they make the ugly Zeus. Meh!





LordIronSpatula said:


> If the Zeus multi sells well, I imagine they'd make a Vader multi too. They already have the hardware...



I don't think we're going to see much development in the way of neck-thru models moving forward. 

They seem to be well invested in bolt-on moving forward.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

*Kiesel: *releases new thing
*Sevenstring.org: *other companies do these things and we like them better lol stupid Kiesel 

*Two months later* 

*Kiesel: *releases new thing
*Sevenstring.org: *other companies do these things and we like them better lol stupid Kiesel


----------



## cip 123

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't think we're going to see much development in the way of neck-thru models moving forward.
> 
> They seem to be well invested in bolt-on moving forward.



Considering after all the time Jeff spent meticulously designing these new bolt on shapes to still end up with a Square heel, I don't think we're gonna see much development there either...


----------



## MaxOfMetal

cip 123 said:


> Considering after all the time Jeff spent meticulously designing these new bolt on shapes to still end up with a Square heel, I don't think we're gonna see much development there either...



The heels aren't bad at all. Kind of ugly, but not obtrusive at all, at least compared to the majority of sculpted heels out there.


----------



## cardinal

Can’t please everyone. I like square heels!

And I actually prefer the 35” for the fan; the 37” is just too long for me, so this is a nice alternative to something like a Dingwall. 

Too bad it’s just kinda oooogly to me.


----------



## cip 123

MaxOfMetal said:


> The heels aren't bad at all. Kind of ugly, but not obtrusive at all, at least compared to the majority of sculpted heels out there.





cardinal said:


> Can’t please everyone. I like square heels!



I actually don't have a problem with square heels, my Schecter Custom has a big square heel.

Just making light of the fact Master Luthier Jeff, designed the guitars to be balanced properly, sit well and all that jazz...couldn't look at the heel and go "I can do better". Hence my thinking, there probably won't be much development in the Bolt on department either. 

It may not be obtrusive but god damn is it ugly. I don't even wanna hate on the brand but it's just too easy with Jeff at the helm.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Jeff said:


> They could start offering actual baked maple, just by leaving the planks on the sidewalk for twenty minutes.



They could do that in japan now too, after the record temps we had here.


----------



## Jeff

MatiasTolkki said:


> They could do that in japan now too, after the record temps we had here.



That sucks. It’s scary.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Jeff said:


> That sucks. It’s scary.



I'll just say, it was the first time in recorded history (which is like 1946 for Japan, post-WW2) that Nagoya went over 40 celcius, and i think 7 of the 10 hottest temps were all broken this year. It was like a blast furnace.


----------



## laxu

cip 123 said:


> Considering after all the time Jeff spent meticulously designing these new bolt on shapes to still end up with a Square heel, I don't think we're gonna see much development there either...


Surprisingly the heel on my Aries is actually one of the best bolt-on heels I’ve had because despite being square, it’s pretty thin.

I’d say a lot of the new Kiesel designs are better functionally than aesthetically. I’d say for example Strandberg guitars are pretty visually but they have horrible neck heels even though they are more contoured. Also the worst action adjustment on the saddles.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

laxu said:


> Surprisingly the heel on my Aries is actually one of the best bolt-on heels I’ve had because despite being square, it’s pretty thin.
> 
> I’d say a lot of the new Kiesel designs are better functionally than aesthetically. I’d say for example Strandberg guitars are pretty visually but they have horrible neck heels even though they are more contoured. Also the worst action adjustment on the saddles.



Except that people always forget about the fact Ibanez has the AANJ, and Jackson has their own take on the Ibanez AANJ, and they are both have far superior access than the Aries neck heel. When Jeff was blathering on and on on Facebook about the neck heel of the aries, he wouldnt stop talking about "upper fret access" and, while compared to a traditional heel, yes the access is better, but when compared to an Ibanez AANJ, it is definitely lacking. It's like he says something just to make people believe it even if it isn't true.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

MatiasTolkki said:


> Except that people always forget about the fact Ibanez has the AANJ, and Jackson has their own take on the Ibanez AANJ, and they are both have far superior access than the Aries neck heel. When Jeff was blathering on and on on Facebook about the neck heel of the aries, he wouldnt stop talking about "upper fret access" and, while compared to a traditional heel, yes the access is better, but when compared to an Ibanez AANJ, it is definitely lacking. It's like he says something just to make people believe it even if it isn't true.



I found them to be roughly the same depending on what you're playing and how you play. 

I'm not even some huge Kiesel fan and I've complained about the aesthetics of the heel in the past, but functionally, I find them identical. 

When did you try out a recent bolt-on Kiesel?


----------



## MatiasTolkki

MaxOfMetal said:


> I found them to be roughly the same depending on what you're playing and how you play.
> 
> I'm not even some huge Kiesel fan and I've complained about the aesthetics of the heel in the past, but functionally, I find them identical.
> 
> When did you try out a recent bolt-on Kiesel?



My friend is a kiesel endorser and I played his aries more than once. I havent gone to see him to try is Crescent multiscale though.


----------



## Seabeast2000

random question, does Kiesel offer any baritone options? Maybe I already asked this, I can't remember.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

The906 said:


> random question, does Kiesel offer any baritone options? Maybe I already asked this, I can't remember.



They offer 27" on a number of options if that's what you mean.


----------



## Seabeast2000

MaxOfMetal said:


> They offer 27" on a number of options if that's what you mean.



Yeah, that's what I was asking. Thanks. I have been missing it in the builders I guess.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

The906 said:


> Yeah, that's what I was asking. Thanks. I have been missing it in the builders I guess.



Not in the builder and it voids returns or 10 day trials.


----------



## spudmunkey

Do you mean 6 string?

Vader is available in 27". There are several other models available with 26.5" scale: DC600, K
Aries, Solo, K series, and I believe the Crescent. Also, if they will still build you one (because they retired the model months ago, so they may not), the TL60.


----------



## spudmunkey

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Not in the builder and it voids returns or 10 day trials.



It is in the builder for several models, and doesn't build the 10 day on any of them. It's on the builder for Aries, DC600 and Vader on page 4 of their builders. I don't see it on the Crescent builder, but I see one in the model's gallery, but that may be an error. The K series doesn't have a builder as it's online only.


----------



## Seabeast2000

spudmunkey said:


> Do you mean 6 string?
> 
> Vader is available in 27". There are several other models available with 26.5" scale. DC600, Q
> Aries, Solo, K series,



Yep, just sixers. I was picking the exactly WRONG models that do not have scale options (vanquish, osiris). I see other models that have it now. thanks!


----------



## laxu

MatiasTolkki said:


> Except that people always forget about the fact Ibanez has the AANJ, and Jackson has their own take on the Ibanez AANJ, and they are both have far superior access than the Aries neck heel. When Jeff was blathering on and on on Facebook about the neck heel of the aries, he wouldnt stop talking about "upper fret access" and, while compared to a traditional heel, yes the access is better, but when compared to an Ibanez AANJ, it is definitely lacking. It's like he says something just to make people believe it even if it isn't true.



I like the Kiesel heel better than the Ibanez AANJ. It isn’t pretty but it does it’s job without getting in the way.


----------



## spudmunkey

laxu said:


> I like the Kiesel heel better than the Ibanez AANJ.



Same.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Unless it's one of these:






Just about any heel will work for most players. It all comes down to preference.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

The906 said:


> Yeah, that's what I was asking. Thanks. I have been missing it in the builders I guess.



The DC600 has a 26.5 inch scale option also


----------



## MatiasTolkki

laxu said:


> I like the Kiesel heel better than the Ibanez AANJ. It isn’t pretty but it does it’s job without getting in the way.



AANJ feels like a neck through, Kiesel block doesn't.


----------



## LordCashew

Lord Voldemort said:


> *Kiesel: *releases new thing
> *Sevenstring.org: *other companies do these things and we like them better lol stupid Kiesel
> 
> *Two months later*
> 
> *Kiesel: *releases new thing
> *Sevenstring.org: *other companies do these things and we like them better lol stupid Kiesel


 
Fair enough. But what brand _doesn't _this apply to around here? Honestly I think there's much worse nitpicking in the Ibanez threads.

In fact, I think with Kiesel this kind of discussion is actually more productive, because they actually seem to pay more attention to feedback and make new options available pretty quickly, as you point out. Yes, there are some haters around here. But though I personally am not a fanboy, I'm not hating at all. I actually think the new basses are already cool, and really close to being totally awesome. Why not make what we want known?


----------



## MatiasTolkki

LordIronSpatula said:


> Fair enough. But what brand _doesn't _this apply to around here? Honestly I think there's much worse nitpicking in the Ibanez threads.
> 
> In fact, I think with Kiesel this kind of discussion is actually more productive, because they actually seem to pay more attention to feedback and make new options available pretty quickly, as you point out. Yes, there are some haters around here. But though I personally am not a fanboy, I'm not hating at all. I actually think the new basses are already cool, and really close to being totally awesome. Why not make what we want known?



Jeff has been known to flat out ignore people's demands in the past, and he got lots of flak for discontinuing the old pups (a LOT from me) and he was like "Well fuck you guys, I like the lithiums so you MUST like them too." That sort of childish bullshit is why a lot of people have turned on them.


----------



## bracky

That Jeff Kiesel is a big meanie!


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

I mostly come here to read Matias bring up those pickups being discontinued. AGAIN


----------



## MatiasTolkki

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> I mostly come here to read Matias bring up those pickups being discontinued. AGAIN



It's a valid example of Jeff not listening to people, I wasnt the only one who complained either.


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> It's a valid example of Jeff not listening to people, I wasnt the only one who complained either.


You're the only person I've ever seen complain about those damn pickups over and over again.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> You're the only person I've ever seen complain about those damn pickups over and over again.



Because the thread on the kiesel forums was deleted.


----------



## cardinal

I wonder if Kiesel did LESS customer engagement if there would be fewer complaints, even with the exact same products.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

cardinal said:


> I wonder if Kiesel did LESS customer engagement if there would be fewer complaints, even with the exact same products.


Good point. I think it is because Jeff goes on lvie streams answering questiosn that people are more restless and fast to publicly "call them out"


----------



## icipher

MatiasTolkki said:


> Jeff has been known to flat out ignore people's demands in the past, and he got lots of flak for discontinuing the old pups (a LOT from me) and he was like "Well fuck you guys, I like the lithiums so you MUST like them too." That sort of childish bullshit is why a lot of people have turned on them.



I've been mistreated by Kiesel, BADLY, but I will admit that the Lithium pickups are awesome. I've tried most pickups out there and the lithiums just sound fantastic to my ears.


----------



## spudmunkey

spudmunkey said:


> he got lots of flak for discontinuing the old pups



Did he, though? There seemed like there was about 4 very loud actual customers, and then a handfull of people who hadn't bought anything from them since 1993.


----------



## cip 123

The old pickups weren't even that good.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

cip 123 said:


> The old pickups weren't eve that good.



They had some decent 6-string pickups over the years. The 7s were okay at best. 

I think the current range, the Lithium models, are just about the best pickups they've ever made. 

Everyone complains about them being shrill, but it's a heck of a lot easier to smooth that out than try and put some life into something overly dark.


----------



## cip 123

MaxOfMetal said:


> They had some decent 6-string pickups over the years. The 7s were okay at best.
> 
> I think the current range, the Lithium models, are just about the best pickups they've ever made.
> 
> Everyone complains about them being shrill, but it's a heck of a lot easier to smooth that out than try and put some life into something overly dark.



I had the 6 string ones in my JB200. They were good but by no means worth the "Uproar" that apparently came out about them being gone.

Note the enlarged quotes as the uproar seems to consist of 1 person.

I'll probably never get a chance to try the lithiums over here in the UK.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

lithiums are good stock pickups, but I hated them in my dc600. they were annoyingly shrill in that guitar, but sounded awesome in my koa 8 string. the naturally warmer sound of that guitar really helped naturally mitigate some of the shrillness.
i'd probably try the holdsworth or greg howe sets next if i pick up another kiesel.


----------



## cip 123

KnightBrolaire said:


> lithiums are good stock pickups, but I hated them in my dc600. they were annoyingly shrill in that guitar, but sounded awesome in my koa 8 string. the naturally warmer sound of that guitar really helped naturally mitigate some of the shrillness.
> i'd probably try the holdsworth or greg howe sets next if i pick up another kiesel.


Still trying to figure out the correct pickup for my JB200 which is Koa, maple neck thru. It must be the Koa, because for a maple Neck thru the bass is very hard to get right with any pickup I've tried.


----------



## Albake21

I've had success with Lithiums too. I enjoy them, not my favorite, but definitely solid stock pickups. I will say they sound just fucking terrible in every Ash bodied guitar I've had them in.


----------



## spudmunkey

I'm really curious to hear the Berylliums a bit more. So many "warm" pickups lose some articulation, which is one of the hallmarks of the Lithium pickups. The Berylliums, in the limited samples I've heard, seem more balanced in their body compared to Lithiums, and don't seem to give up much in their articulation. I'm not a fan of his music, but Chris Letchford chose them to be the standard pickups on his signature model. I thought that was interesting since they were designed/marketed to be a more "vintage" sounding pickup, and is the standard pickup for their more "traditional" carved top models, the CT, CS and SH550.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

cip 123 said:


> Still trying to figure out the correct pickup for my JB200 which is Koa, maple neck thru. It must be the Koa, because for a maple Neck thru the bass is very hard to get right with any pickup I've tried.


yeah, the maple is the problem. My koa 8 was all koa neck/body, so that probably warmed up the sound a fair amount 
I had them in a maple/walnut neckthrough 8 string as well, and they were pretty bright.

the lithiums were the worst in my dc600 (which had an all limba body/neck and maple top/ebony fingerboard) since that was an inherently bright guitar. The painkillers i had it in it afterwards were even worse. Pure ear rape in that guitar.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

spudmunkey said:


> I'm really curious to hear the Berylliums a bit more. So many "warm" pickups lose some articulation, which is one of the hallmarks of the Lithium pickups. The Berylliums, in the limited samples I've heard, seem more balanced in their body compared to Lithiums, and don't seem to give up much in their articulation. I'm not a fan of his music, but Chris Letchford chose them to be the standard pickups on his signature model. I thought that was interesting since they were designed/marketed to be a more "vintage" sounding pickup, and is the standard pickup for their more "traditional" carved top models, the CT, CS and SH550.



I have the Beryllium in my Osiris, neck position. It's quite nice, it reminds me of an Air Norton I had in an old guitar. 

The pickups are absolutely shrill, both of 'em, but like Max of Metal (my favorite poster, love that kid) said, it's much easier to tame a shrill pickup than it is to add brightness to a dull one. Once you just low pass anything past 7k or so they're really nice. The Lithium sounds like an Aftermath to me, except it has a little less low-mid roar, but it's super responsive to Dynamics and pick attack like the Aftermath was. Seems like they were going for Bare Knuckle with them, back when people liked Bare Knuckle (stupid Kiesel, etc).

The cool thing about the Lithium though is that it's very responsive to any EQ you throw at it. You can easily boost the low mids and it sounds organic and big without mudding things up, and can easily cut out the shrillness without losing any of the good highs between 4-5k, and I think that's pretty cool. 

Without some adapting though, both the Lithium and Beryllium and shrill as hell. When I play them with my old patches they're super bright and pointy sounding. I've copied my old axe fx patches to 'SLO RYTH KIESEL' from whatever they were, and the only differences are just a fuck load less high end and compression. But once you adapt they're really quite nice.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

LordIronSpatula said:


> Fair enough. But what brand _doesn't _this apply to around here? Honestly I think there's much worse nitpicking in the Ibanez threads.
> 
> In fact, I think with Kiesel this kind of discussion is actually more productive, because they actually seem to pay more attention to feedback and make new options available pretty quickly, as you point out. Yes, there are some haters around here. But though I personally am not a fanboy, I'm not hating at all. I actually think the new basses are already cool, and really close to being totally awesome. Why not make what we want known?



I get that, for sure. I think that stating what you want in a thread is important and like you said, whatever flaws you see in Kiesel they do seem to take them and apply them to attempt to give them customers what they want, it's just that almost literally everyone in this thread offers criticism on a harsh level and honestly pretty exclusively, and once Kiesel adapts to requests say, 6 months ago, they're too late and now people want *these *things!!! Then a hate-conversation follows, generally comparing their ideas to like Skervesen or Mayonese, whatever, and people bash Kiesel for like three pages for any concievable thing.

That's bonkers to me. People are so damn whiney, this thread is an example of why I take the ''bad customer service" thing with a huge grain of salt. Could you imagine trying to please the people in this thread? They all want different things, all think the things they want are universally wanted, and then proceed to bash the shit out of Kiesel for not doing those things, and everyone just kind of comes in and agrees with the sentiment, followed by the standard ''I was planning on buying a Kiesel, but then I read this thread. I loved the ones I've played, but I guess those were just lucky ones, I'll never support this company!" And then that person becomes a regular contributor of hate as well, haha.

I know this happens in other threads too, though, I just love guitars and am not the sort to complain about them because I love them. Unless they're $15,000, but let's not do that again.

*Edit: *sorry about the double post, I'm a noob and I smell bad


----------



## icipher

Lord Voldemort said:


> I have the Beryllium in my Osiris, neck position. It's quite nice, it reminds me of an Air Norton I had in an old guitar.
> 
> The pickups are absolutely shrill, both of 'em, but like Max of Metal (my favorite poster, love that kid) said, it's much easier to tame a shrill pickup than it is to add brightness to a dull one. Once you just low pass anything past 7k or so they're really nice. The Lithium sounds like an Aftermath to me, except it has a little less low-mid roar, but it's super responsive to Dynamics and pick attack like the Aftermath was. Seems like they were going for Bare Knuckle with them, back when people liked Bare Knuckle (stupid Kiesel, etc).
> 
> The cool thing about the Lithium though is that it's very responsive to any EQ you throw at it. You can easily boost the low mids and it sounds organic and big without mudding things up, and can easily cut out the shrillness without losing any of the good highs between 4-5k, and I think that's pretty cool.
> 
> Without some adapting though, both the Lithium and Beryllium and shrill as hell. When I play them with my old patches they're super bright and pointy sounding. I've copied my old axe fx patches to 'SLO RYTH KIESEL' from whatever they were, and the only differences are just a fuck load less high end and compression. But once you adapt they're really quite nice.




Man, to me(i've owned both pickups) the aftermath is much thinner and shriller than the lithium. If anything the lithium sounds and feels balanced while being very tight.


----------



## xzacx

Lord Voldemort said:


> People are so damn whiney, this thread is an example of why I take the ''bad customer service" thing with a huge grain of salt.



Have you not read the thread, or you just consider the very specific examples that have been given over and over again not a big deal? I'm sure there's lots of people that have had good customer service experiences, and those who've made a bigger deal than they've needed to out of small things—but there have also been very legitimate bad ones. It makes more sense to me to take them all into account rather than only discounting the bad ones.


----------



## Seabeast2000

spudmunkey said:


> Did he, though? There seemed like there was about 4 very loud actual customers, and then a handfull of people who hadn't bought anything from them since 1993.


HAHA, HELLO ME MEET THE REAL ME


----------



## Lord Voldemort

xzacx said:


> Have you not read the thread, or you just consider the very specific examples that have been given over and over again not a big deal? I'm sure there's lots of people that have had good customer service experiences, and those who've made a bigger deal than they've needed to out of small things—but there have also been very legitimate bad ones. It makes more sense to me to take them all into account rather than only discounting the bad ones.



I think it's in the middle.

Kiesel's customer service is pretty objectively mediocre, just like a lot of music shops. You call them up and they are just 'Kiesel Custom guitars', no 'can I help you', 'how can I direct your call', ''what can I do for you', whatever. When you're wrong about something they address that savagely, no sort of social filter. I was wrong about the black pickup covers being brushed chrome, he let me know several times lol, no 'actually sir those aren't chrome', more like ''those aren't chrome'"
"Oh, ok, well just black then"
"Yeah we don't offer black chrome"
"Gotcha, yeah just black covers"
"Yeah they're just black, not chrome"
"...ok yeah, no worries man, that's fine"

Shit like that. That's just mediocre people skills, and it's not very good customer service, but it's not really bad either. It's just a person. I have no problem believing that they're the same way with a problem, that if I were to call back he'd be similarly stubborn and awkward.

They're also unflinchingly rigid with their policies, so people have been caught off guard in the past and that's never fun. Like the 10 day policy being from when it's shipped to you or something like that, or the no changes on builds once they're placed. I mean, when I placed my order, literally three days later they had a sale on antique ash and 1 piece Ash bodies (both were either free or costed the same as the regular options), and also a sale on walnut necks, so I would have loved to hop on those! But I knew the rules going in, and they wouldn't have let me, and they made that very clear right away.

You guys complaining about that is fine, but read the last 4 pages here. The complaints are about really peculiar and specific options that either aren't exactly as you'd prefer them or that were altered in some fairly harmless way. If you guys talk to them on the phone at all similar to how you talk about them in this thread, I don't remotely blame them for being dicks back. Considering how shitty their people skills are I'd expect it honestly, and literally I expect that if I'm ever a dick to them.


----------



## spudmunkey

Lord Voldemort said:


> I think it's in the middle.
> Kiesel's customer service is pretty objectively mediocre, just like a lot of music shops. You call them up and they are just 'Kiesel Custom guitars', no 'can I help you', 'how can I direct your call', ''what can I do for you', whatever.



Maybe it's a california thing? The company I work for does over $120m in sales in a year and our clients include everything from 100+ year old banks to tech startups and everything in between, and we answer our phone with just the name of our company. Oh, but we do preface it with a time-of-day greeting, like, "Good morning, [company name here]".



Lord Voldemort said:


> When you're wrong about something they address that savagely, no sort of social filter. I was wrong about the black pickup covers being brushed chrome, he let me know several times lol, no 'actually sir those aren't chrome', more like ''those aren't chrome'"
> "Oh, ok, well just black then"
> "Yeah we don't offer black chrome"
> "Gotcha, yeah just black covers"
> "Yeah they're just black, not chrome"
> "...ok yeah, no worries man, that's fine"
> 
> Shit like that. That's just mediocre people skills, and it's not very good customer service, but it's not really bad either.



I wonder if that could come from feeling the need to make absolute certain that someone ordering something custom-made doesn't misunderstand a spec. Like...OVERLY communicate as a practice of _good _ customer service. There's been things I've felt the need to make sure my own customers understand, and I remind them every time we talk about it, because I don't to get caught in any sort of misunderstanding that could cost both of us time and money. "Again, just as a reminder, and we spoke about this at the last meeting, the such-and-such stool you're requesting is going to be too tall for this counter you are building as it's currently designed. I know you said it'll be OK, but I do feel like I just need to reiterate one more time that the stools you've specified and already ordered aren't designed for a counter at this height."

And sure enough, even though it was brought up several times, in email form, and in meetings with the entire project team, and they signed off on everything, I got a call this morning from my customer during the delivery that, "These stools are too tall!" *facepalm*.



Lord Voldemort said:


> You guys complaining about that is fine, but read the last 4 pages here. The complaints are about really peculiar and specific options that either aren't exactly as you'd prefer them or that were altered in some fairly harmless way.



"I'm so pissed off that they haven't uprooted their family and business to move to another state so that I can spend $200 less on a guitar from them! They are ripping off customers!"


----------



## Albake21

Oh come on guys, I don't have all day to read your essays!


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Albake21 said:


> Oh come on guys, I don't have all day to read your essays!



That's fair. But you guys are so impassioned and argumentative, every time I leave an opening it's exploited so I try and be thorough.

TLDR: sure, Kiesel isn't particularly great at customer service but the lot of you are incredibly petty, openly confrontational about your problems with the brand and nitpick, and I'd assume you're probably similar in real life and thus probably a lot more difficult than you realize to do business with therefor I'm not shocked some of you have had problems with Kiesel's customer service, you're probably pretty shitty customers.

See, if I say that you probably already have like 3 objections composed and ready to go, so I'd rather have the novel of text. I'm also a fast typer, dammit


----------



## Albake21

Lord Voldemort said:


> That's fair. But you guys are so impassioned and argumentative, every time I leave an opening it's exploited so I try and be thorough.
> 
> TLDR: sure, Kiesel isn't particularly great at customer service but the lot of you are incredibly petty, openly confrontational about your problems with the brand and nitpick, and I'd assume you're probably similar in real life and thus probably a lot more difficult than you realize to do business with therefor I'm not shocked some of you have had problems with Kiesel's customer service, you're probably pretty shitty customers.
> 
> See, if I say that you probably already have like 3 objections composed and ready to go, so I'd rather have the novel of text. I'm also a fast typer, dammit


I was just kidding man. That's what SSO is for, to discuss your hearts content.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Albake21 said:


> I was just kidding man. That's what SSO is for, to discuss your hearts content.



Shit. I am actively insecure about the length of my posts, though, so well played.


----------



## spudmunkey

Lord Voldemort said:


> Shit. I am actively insecure about the length of my posts, though, so well played.



TL;DR, plz?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

If you think sso is nitpicky and whiny, don't ever go to tgp or rigtalk, they're far worse.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

KnightBrolaire said:


> If you think sso is nitpicky and whiny, don't ever go to tgp or rigtalk, they're far worse.



Ugh, what a whiney thing to say

Also is your name a knight solaire thing? Because while this is completely off topic I just beat Dark Souls 1 for the second time and i'm trying to play Bloodborne but it's so much harder, like you can't block? What the hell, all I do is block and roll, you took away half of my thing and you expect me to win? Fuck you From software, is there a Dark Souls thread? Because I will whine like a rich person that sucks at guitar that just bought a Kiesel with a single sharp fret end


----------



## Jeff

MatiasTolkki said:


> AANJ feels like a neck through, Kiesel block doesn't.



Not really, no. I love my Ibbys, but they don’t feel like neck throughs.


----------



## laxu

Lord Voldemort said:


> Also is your name a knight solaire thing? Because while this is completely off topic I just beat Dark Souls 1 for the second time and i'm trying to play Bloodborne but it's so much harder, like you can't block? What the hell, all I do is block and roll, you took away half of my thing and you expect me to win? Fuck you From software, is there a Dark Souls thread? Because I will whine like a rich person that sucks at guitar that just bought a Kiesel with a single sharp fret end



Well there is like one or two shields in BB but they both pretty much suck, kind of like some Kiesel designs (see how I tied this to the thread?  ). The quickstep is far better than any shield and the game should not be played passively like DS since regaining health by attacking is an important mechanic. The start is really tough though. If you want to make it a bit easier use the Saw Cleaver because it gives a 20% bonus damage against beasts. It's a fantastic game, probably best in the series.


----------



## prlgmnr

Lord Voldemort said:


> Ugh, what a whiney thing to say
> 
> Also is your name a knight solaire thing? Because while this is completely off topic I just beat Dark Souls 1 for the second time and i'm trying to play Bloodborne but it's so much harder, like you can't block? What the hell, all I do is block and roll, you took away half of my thing and you expect me to win? Fuck you From software, is there a Dark Souls thread? Because I will whine like a rich person that sucks at guitar that just bought a Kiesel with a single sharp fret end


Have you considered becoming competent, sir?


----------



## Jeff

icipher said:


> I've been mistreated by Kiesel, BADLY, but I will admit that the Lithium pickups are awesome. I've tried most pickups out there and the lithiums just sound fantastic to my ears.



What did they do to mistreat you?


----------



## icipher

Jeff said:


> What did they do to mistreat you?



Long story short, i was a returning customer and put an order in for an Aries baritone. Guitar came a month late(ok, fine) but when i received it the bridge was messed up. The saddles were angled upwards so high that they were very sharp and were literally cutting my palms. Adjusting them down resulted in terrible buzz. I sent the guitar back and and emailed Jeff. He promised they'd fix it and send a picture, and that if i wasn't satisfied they'd take it back. There were multiple people who were having this issue concurrently.

A week later i get a picture from Kiesel of their work and the saddles were still too vertically slanted. I said sorry, but please refund me. Their "customer service" guy, Eduardo I believe, fought me tooth and nail about returning it. I showed him Jeff's email again(which he was copied on) where Jeff stated they'd take it back if I chose to do so. The guy got very heated and still fought me on the phone saying they wouldn't take it back. After 20 minutes of back and forth he relented and agreed to take it back but that I would be banned for life from ever buying another guitar from them. Completely ridiculous.

I will say, they are capable of making great guitars. My DC7X is probably the best 7 string I've owned, and I've had a lot. If their customer service was better I think public opinion of the company as a whole would be a LOT better.


----------



## cip 123

I think you should test this "Banned for life" nonsense.


----------



## Jeff

icipher said:


> Long story short, i was a returning customer and put an order in for an Aries baritone. Guitar came a month late(ok, fine) but when i received it the bridge was messed up. The saddles were angled upwards so high that they were very sharp and were literally cutting my palms. Adjusting them down resulted in terrible buzz. I sent the guitar back and and emailed Jeff. He promised they'd fix it and send a picture, and that if i wasn't satisfied they'd take it back. There were multiple people who were having this issue concurrently.
> 
> A week later i get a picture from Kiesel of their work and the saddles were still too vertically slanted. I said sorry, but please refund me. Their "customer service" guy, Eduardo I believe, fought me tooth and nail about returning it. I showed him Jeff's email again(which he was copied on) where Jeff stated they'd take it back if I chose to do so. The guy got very heated and still fought me on the phone saying they wouldn't take it back. After 20 minutes of back and forth he relented and agreed to take it back but that I would be banned for life from ever buying another guitar from them. Completely ridiculous.
> 
> I will say, they are capable of making great guitars. My DC7X is probably the best 7 string I've owned, and I've had a lot. If their customer service was better I think public opinion of the company as a whole would be a LOT better.



Oof. Man, I wish they didn't pull crap like that. Yours wasn't the only Aries that had that saddle issue. I've seen that before with another guy that ordered the Aries early on.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Lord Voldemort said:


> Ugh, what a whiney thing to say
> 
> Also is your name a knight solaire thing? Because while this is completely off topic I just beat Dark Souls 1 for the second time and i'm trying to play Bloodborne but it's so much harder, like you can't block? What the hell, all I do is block and roll, you took away half of my thing and you expect me to win? Fuck you From software, is there a Dark Souls thread? Because I will whine like a rich person that sucks at guitar that just bought a Kiesel with a single sharp fret end


oh god what a whiny thing to say, just git gud scrub. Bloodborne isn't hard, you're just used to turtling, which is a no go in that game. Dodges and counters are the bread and butter of that game


----------



## Seabeast2000

Whine and Cheeze Tasting Event 2018. Can we get an SSO cruise coordinated? Everyone else is doing it. I'll give 50 BoatBucks to the person who can come up with a solid itinerary. Let's make it 5 days off the coast of Maine in November because Metal AF.


----------



## spudmunkey

cip 123 said:


> I think you should test this "Banned for life" nonsense.



That's how they get you.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

KnightBrolaire said:


> oh god what a whiny thing to say, just git gud scrub. Bloodborne isn't hard, you're just used to turtling, which is a no go in that game. Dodges and counters are the bread and butter of that game



It's bullshit, definitely whining about it. I'll get it, I just need to figure it out, still stuck in the beginning. 

Also, we should coordinate a SSO meetup at the Kiesel showroom, and then just complain super vocally about every instrument in there and loudly say that Mayonese and Skervesen does their things better in a large group. 

I love Kiesel but that sounds fun.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Lord Voldemort said:


> It's bullshit, definitely whining about it. I'll get it, I just need to figure it out, still stuck in the beginning.
> 
> Also, we should coordinate a SSO meetup at the Kiesel showroom, and then just complain super vocally about every instrument in there and loudly say that Mayonese and Skervesen does their things better in a large group.
> 
> I love Kiesel but that sounds fun.


be sure to bring your fedoras and finest nippon steel mall katanas for the LARP event afterwards


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

The906 said:


> Whine and Cheeze Tasting Event 2018. Can we get an SSO cruise coordinated? Everyone else is doing it. I'll give 50 BoatBucks to the person who can come up with a solid itinerary. Let's make it 5 days off the coast of Maine in November because Metal AF.



Periphery Summer Jam? This time, it's a boat?


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Me waiting for new Kiesel content and the slew of discontinuations and angry people.


----------



## spudmunkey

My predictions:
Multi scale Zeus and Vader. They didn't pay the tooling costs for the new longer 6-string pickups (long enough to be installed on an angle) and multi scale headless bridge to only use them on one model.

Retired: LPM6 and LPM7 (we knew that already, sh6 (a shame, because it's on my list), AC375, ns1. Possibly any non-multiscale extended scale.


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> My predictions:
> Multi scale Zeus and Vader. They didn't pay the tooling costs for the new longer 6-string pickups (long enough to be installed on an angle) and multi scale headless bridge to only use them on one model.
> 
> Retired: LPM6 and LPM7 (we knew that already, sh6 (a shame, because it's on my list), AC375, ns1. Possibly any non-multiscale extended scale.


Am I misreading or something? Multiscale Zues and Vader are already a thing.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Albake21 said:


> Am I misreading or something? Multiscale Zues and Vader are already a thing.



I think he means Osiris and Vader basses.


----------



## spudmunkey

Albake21 said:


> Am I misreading or something? Multiscale Zues and Vader are already a thing.





MaxOfMetal said:


> I think he means Osiris and Vader basses.



Sorry, yes...I misspoke. I meant Osiris and Vader.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> My predictions:
> Multi scale Zeus and Vader. They didn't pay the tooling costs for the new longer 6-string pickups (long enough to be installed on an angle) and multi scale headless bridge to only use them on one model.
> 
> Retired: LPM6 and LPM7 (we knew that already, sh6 (a shame, because it's on my list), AC375, ns1. Possibly any non-multiscale extended scale.



Do you really think they're going to discontinue the non-multiscale 8s?


----------



## spudmunkey

Kinda. I know they didnt even make a 8-string non multiscale on several models (vanquish, SCB). No other info beyond that...


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> Kinda. I know they didnt even make a 8-string non multiscale on several models (vanquish, SCB). No other info beyond that...



That's kind of a bummer, since that's the only way to get a trem'd 8. Would they abandon the hardware?


----------



## spudmunkey

Interesting thought. They only have terms on the headless, so they already only offer it on some models.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> Interesting thought. They only have terms on the headless, so they already only offer it on some models.



It would be the Vader, Osiris and Zeus.


----------



## spudmunkey

Indeed. I don't know why, but I have this feeling that they are going to, in the spirit of streamlining their CNC variations, eliminate the straight extended scale 8-string Aries, DC, K series, Solo and Crescent...models where they don't have trems for the 8-strings.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> Indeed. I don't know why, but I have this feeling that they are going to, in the spirit of streamlining their CNC variations, eliminate the straight extended scale 8-string Aries, DC, K series, Solo and Crescent...models where they don't have trems for the 8-strings.



Other than eliminating a single part SKU, how does this streamline something? Are they purchasing new equipment that hasn't run the straight scale stuff? Is there a part of the process that differs from when they build multi-scale stuff?

I wonder what the ratio of straight to fanned is, as far as units sold.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> Other than eliminating a single part SKU, how does this streamline something?



Apparently, and I can only go by what's said in their videos, each complete variation takes a whole new program. For example:

Aries 6, right handed, fixed bridge, HH, with bevel, and 25.5" scale is one program. Then multiply that by 2 for the left handed. Then multiply that by 2 scale lengths. Then multiply that by 3 for 3 different bridges (they offer 4, but the Floyd isn't on the extended scales). Then multiply that by 5 for 5 different pickup layouts (HH, HSS, HSH, SSS, and HS). Then multiply that by 2 for bevel delete.

So just for that one model, and I'm sure I'm missing some, that's at least 120 individual programs, just for the 6-string Aries. Oh, 240...I forgot chambering. Shoot...480...the piezo electronics. Wait...960 because of the 22-fret version? Maybe not because I don't think they'd offer Evertune on a 22-fret...but that's at least a few more combinations.

He's mentioned that they were almost at 8,000 programs, and was intending to get it closer to 6K or lower, if i remember right. Of course, there are some things that need to be streamlined to be efficient enough to be able to crank out 5,000 guitars a month out of their factory, and apparently this is one thing that causes some sort of issue for them.

In my head, these things would be generated dynamically or options are loaded a-la-carte, but I've got zero knowledge about how CNCs actually work, and I'm sure that even if they would be set up that way in a from-scratch new installation for a new company, that a lot of Kiesel's inefficiencies come from legacy processes and their odd option codes.

Like...why is Deep Moss Green on flamed maple a different finish code from Deep Moss Green on Quilted Maple? Just...put flamed maple top as one option, and deep moss green as a seperate option for the finish...like all of their other woods...but that's not how their factory/codes is setup up. Same with the "select neck and body wood" page on the builder. After you make a selection there, you go to the next page and you select the neck wood again, but this time just the laminated necks, and your previous neck choice is not only ignored, but you could accidentally double-pay if you think you need to select "koa neck and body" if you wanted to then later add a maple and koa 5-piece neck on the next page.


----------



## Maximal

Yeah, but I doubt Jeff has a clue about CNC programming. Yes, you have to generate separate G-Code for each variation and you might end up with thousands of such programms. However, if you are smart about this you will be able to generate all the permuations automatically, i.e. if you add a new bridge it should be absolutely no problem to generate the code for all combinations of chambering, scale length, etc in seconds. I have no idea what soft- and hardware pipeline they are using but everyone with a full time job in such a field should be able to write a few nested for loops that will get the job done.


----------



## spudmunkey

Maximal said:


> Yeah, but I doubt Jeff has a clue about CNC programming.



He definitely doesn't. He's got a person/people for that, for sure (he's even mentioned it).


----------



## MaxOfMetal

It just seems like such a waste to ditch the only truly unique thing they offer, and the custom hardware they helped develop to facilitate it. 

But you're the Kiesel guy, and I trust your judgment on this. I don't follow them nearly as closely to say what they're going to discontinue next. 

That said, my big prediction: no more neck through models. Not just no new ones, but discontinuation of current ones. Maybe not next year, but long game.


----------



## icipher

MaxOfMetal said:


> That said, my big prediction: no more neck through models. Not just no new ones, but discontinuation of current ones. Maybe not next year, but long game.



Why would they discontinue neck through stuff?


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> I trust your judgment on this.



Please don't. I'm batting about .050 when it comes to predictions. This one is a shot in the dark, at best




MaxOfMetal said:


> That said, my big prediction: no more neck through models. Not just no new ones, but discontinuation of current ones. Maybe not next year, but long game.



It would be an interesting turn. Two of Jeff's favorite models are the Vader and K Series, the last of which was his take on "everything I want as my perfect guitar", or something along those lines.


----------



## spudmunkey

icipher said:


> Why would they discontinue neck through stuff?



They just cost more to make, and so many of their most recent models have been bolt on.

That said, the Aries was their first modern bolt on in years and years, so it makes sense to leverage that new and popular neck pocket and heel design/geometry across quite a few new models. The Zeus uses the same neck pocket as the Aries, for example.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Either neck through will go away or they will see significant price increases. Currently the DC800 and A8 are the same price. Expect for the neckthrough pricing to go upas they focus on more bolt ons.

It will be more like a premium option. The explanation will probably be "Hey guys. Important announcement, as of 01/01/2019 we will be increasing the price of all our neckthrough models. It was just costing us more money and we barely make any profit on the neck through instruments. We are adjusting that price as of 01/01/2019. If you order now you get them for the same price but if you order one on the first, even if you have a guitar specced out, you will have to pay 2019 pricing as of 01/01/2019"


----------



## spudmunkey

They wouldn't go that far, i don't think. In a yearly price adjustment, they would just bump up bolt-ons $50 and neck-throughs $100, and assume people won't notice there's a difference.

I'm actually suprised the DC800 is the same as the A8, and the A6 is the same as the DC600, because the neck-throughs USED to be $50 more.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

spudmunkey said:


> They wouldn't go that far, i don't think. In a yearly price adjustment, they would just bump up bolt-ons $50 and neck-throughs $100, and assume people won't notice there's a difference.
> 
> I'm actually suprised the DC800 is the same as the A8, and the A6 is the same as the DC600, because the neck-throughs USED to be $50 more.



It is because they increased the aries price.


----------



## cardinal

I really hope they keep the straight 8s like the Solo 8. Hipshot told me they hoped to release an 8-string Contour trem in 2019. I’m not holding my breath, but if they can actually do that, I’d REALLY love to see Kiesel adopt it. I seriously couldn’t stop buying Solo 8x guitars

As it is, I’ve been open to the idea of just having a Solo 8 modded to have a Floyd 8, but Kiesel uses a slightly narrow 8-string neck width that might be a bit too close for the wider-ish Floyd 8. Presumably the Contour 8 would have the same spacing as the hardtail, and I’d feel really stupid going through all the trouble to have one cut up only for Hipshot to come through a few months later.


----------



## cardinal

And for what it’s worth, I asked them if they’d make me an Osiris 8x but with an Aries 8 neck so it’d have a headstock and not look so weird. The neck dimensions seem the same, so I assume it’d be easy and no programming or whatever needed. But they said absolutely not.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

icipher said:


> Why would they discontinue neck through stuff?



That's the direction they're going. The last eight or so new models have been bolt-on, and I don't see that stopping. At the same time, neck-through models have been discontinued at a faster pace. 

There are a lot of advantages to building bolt-on guitars, namely the ability to work on body and neck at the same time in different production areas and being interchangeable means they can prep more in advance and match them up as orders come in. 

For example you can have the bodies in paint while the necks get fretted.



spudmunkey said:


> Please don't. I'm batting about .050 when it comes to predictions. This one is a shot in the dark, at best



Better average than I have with Kiesel. 




> It would be an interesting turn. Two of Jeff's favorite models are the Vader and K Series, the last of which was his take on "everything I want as my perfect guitar", or something along those lines.



It goes without saying, you can't really take what Jeff says at face value. 

That said, I'm sure he likes a successful business more than a personal guitar.


----------



## spudmunkey

They also discontinued the B40/B50, Bolt+ and C66...basically every bolt-on except the Bolt, the PB he designed, and the JB the lass bass his dad designed. They simply had fewer bolt-on models to discontinued since they ignored that marker for a couple of decades.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> They also discontinued the B40/B50, Bolt+ and C66...basically every bolt-on except the Bolt, the PB he designed, and the JB the lass bass his dad designed. They simply had fewer bolt-on models to discontinued since they ignored that marker for a couple of decades.



It just seems like more non-bolt on stuff has been axed. 

Off the top of my head:
-XB
-Xcellerator (sp?)
-AC 
-TL
-Cali Carved Top 7s
-SC

I might be missing a few, like the pointy ones, and didn't bother with signature stuff.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Not saying it won’t happen but I’d be surprised. They made their name for this generation on neckthroughs. The Vader and dc7x are still fantastic values compared to neckthrough customs from other builders. 

But more people seem to prefer bolt one. So who knows.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

diagrammatiks said:


> Not saying it won’t happen but I’d be surprised. They made their name for this generation on neckthroughs. The Vader and dc7x are still fantastic values compared to neckthrough customs from other builders.
> 
> But more people seem to prefer bolt one. So who knows.



I don't know, ten years ago I would have thought it was really far fetched, but it seems that folks have relaxed on the whole "neck-through vs. bolt-on" thing.

When is the last time they brought out a new neck-through series? The K series is all I can think of, with the Vader before it. 

Watch, they introduce a dozen new neck-through models next month.


----------



## spudmunkey

The CL and Crescent are set-through.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> The CL and Crescent are set-through.



Man, I always forget about the Letchford. What an ugly fucking guitar.

Good point on the Crescent. I figured it wasn't true neck-through, but didn't bother looking. 

Did I miss anything that was discontinued?

Also, why were the Xcellerator models killed so quickly?


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

MaxOfMetal said:


> Man, I always forget about the Letchford. What an ugly fucking guitar.
> 
> Good point on the Crescent. I figured it wasn't true neck-through, but didn't bother looking.
> 
> Did I miss anything that was discontinued?
> 
> Also, why were the Xcellerator models killed so quickly?




" I can't a CNC program for something I only sell maybe 10 a year" Idk or something simialr but add more surfer lingo. DOPe or BRO


----------



## LeviathanKiller

What neck profiles are most of you guys going for on your seven-string builds? I'm not sure if I should go standard or pay extra for the "thinner neck" option.

Out of production model stuff so far the Schecter Keith Merrow signature model has my favorite neck shape.
Neck Shape: Ultra Thin ‘C’
Thickness: @ 1st Fret- .748” (19mm)/ @ 12th Fret- .787” (20mm)
Fretboard Radius: 12”-16” Compound Radius


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> Did I miss anything that was discontinued?



These were the changes from july:
- New JH6 model
- New multiscale JB4 and JB5
- Xcellerator bass is retired
- 7-string Floyd Rose retired from the line up except for the LPM7 (but the LP6 and LP7 are going away at the end of 2018 since he has a new signature model)
- DC127-12 retired
- CT3 variant of the CT line retired
- CT7 retired
- Price increase on some models
- X220 retired
- 6 string Floyd Rose removed as an option from CT, CS, and Solo
- SH7 retired
- Rosewood backplates and TRCs being discontinued
- White Limba tops discontinued
- Trans pearl pink, blue and green paints retired
- H2 model retired (HF2 and HH2 still remain)
- Hard cases discontinued except on pointy models and *perhaps* semi-hollow carved tops


Here is what was discontinued in January 2018:
- X227, JB207, Ultra V7, DC727, HH7 retired
- CT73/4 variant of the CT7 retired
-AC40/AC50 discontinued



MaxOfMetal said:


> Also, why were the Xcellerator models killed so quickly?



In the Q&A videos for the last year or so before it was nixed, Jeff's been hinting that the Xcellerator, while it was his favorite bass model ("I think it looks bad-ass...") just didn't sell well at all...so no playing favorites, I guess.


----------



## Albake21

LeviathanKiller said:


> What neck profiles are most of you guys going for on your seven-string builds? I'm not sure if I should go standard or pay extra for the "thinner neck" option.
> 
> Out of production model stuff so far the Schecter Keith Merrow signature model has my favorite neck shape.
> Neck Shape: Ultra Thin ‘C’
> Thickness: @ 1st Fret- .748” (19mm)/ @ 12th Fret- .787” (20mm)
> Fretboard Radius: 12”-16” Compound Radius


I've played a lot of Kiesels and now only buy ones with the thinner neck profile. It really isn't a huge difference between the two, but give the choice I go thinner every time. It's no where near as thin as the Ultra thin C. I'd say it's in between the Ultra and normal Thin C from Schecter. Kinda reminds me of the original Wizard, if it was a C shape. It's absolutely my favorite neck profile out of anything I've ever played. That's pretty much the main reason I always go back to Kiesels.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

So, I'm in a nerdy ass power metal band (that's actually written about Dark Souls), and we recorded this little playthrough with my friend's absolutely gorgeous Vader.



I love my Osiris, but that Vader is something else man. It has the thinner neck profile too, and I might get that the next go around. I wonder if he'd sell it to me...


----------



## Jeff

Lord Voldemort said:


> So, I'm in a nerdy ass power metal band (that's actually written about Dark Souls), and we recorded this little playthrough with my friend's absolutely gorgeous Vader.
> 
> 
> 
> I love my Osiris, but that Vader is something else man. It has the thinner neck profile too, and I might get that the next go around. I wonder if he'd sell it to me...




That's some pretty insane stuff, man. Well done!


----------



## spudmunkey

New Andy James signature Crescent model. Besides the (I assume) standard Evertune and the (i assume) optional 12th fret inlay, I don't know how it might (if it does) differ from the similarly spec'd Crescent model.


----------



## scratchNdentPrestige

Lord Voldemort said:


> So, I'm in a nerdy ass power metal band (that's actually written about Dark Souls), and we recorded this little playthrough with my friend's absolutely gorgeous Vader.




I like this sort of stuff, and your playing on it is great! 

That guitar is nice, but I have some sort of mental block against the Kiesels with maple boards, just based on a Carvin I got off Ebay with one that was horribly grungy and scratched up. I suspect it was due previous owner rather than in inherit problem with tung oil on maple boards.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

spudmunkey said:


> New Andy James signature Crescent model. Besides the (I assume) standard Evertune and the (i assume) optional 12th fret inlay, I don't know how it might (if it does) differ from the similarly spec'd Crescent model.
> 
> View attachment 65814
> View attachment 65815
> View attachment 65816
> View attachment 65817
> View attachment 65818


Prob not much but it will still prob start at like 1800


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> New Andy James signature Crescent model. Besides the (I assume) standard Evertune and the (i assume) optional 12th fret inlay, I don't know how it might (if it does) differ from the similarly spec'd Crescent model.
> 
> View attachment 65814
> View attachment 65815
> View attachment 65816
> View attachment 65817
> View attachment 65818


That is one ugly looking guitar. The inlay looks pretty cool, although I can't stop thinking of the Quake logo when I see it.


----------



## spudmunkey

Albake21 said:


> The inlay looks pretty cool, although I can't stop thinking of the Quake logo when I see it.



Cannot un-see...

Apparently another signature spec is a slight re-shaped lower horn area. I believe the transition between the top and the horn's contour is smoothed out a bit.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

spudmunkey said:


> New Andy James signature Crescent model. Besides the (I assume) standard Evertune and the (i assume) optional 12th fret inlay, I don't know how it might (if it does) differ from the similarly spec'd Crescent model.



I want to hate that finish but I just can't. I dig it. I can't even tell you why.


----------



## spudmunkey

Ordacleaphobia said:


> I want to hate that finish but I just can't. I dig it. I can't even tell you why.



Same. I really didn't care for the red one he already has, but "works" better for me in this KRG. Perhaps it's the coordinating pickups and inlay? No idea. But it makes me want to see one in black with white.


----------



## Jeff

spudmunkey said:


> New Andy James signature Crescent model. Besides the (I assume) standard Evertune and the (i assume) optional 12th fret inlay, I don't know how it might (if it does) differ from the similarly spec'd Crescent model.
> 
> View attachment 65814
> View attachment 65815
> View attachment 65816
> View attachment 65817
> View attachment 65818



Apparently someone answered the question “how do I completely destroy an otherwise beautiful guitar”


----------



## bracky

The front of it looks awesome but the back could use a clear neck to balance out all that green.


----------



## laxu

LeviathanKiller said:


> What neck profiles are most of you guys going for on your seven-string builds? I'm not sure if I should go standard or pay extra for the "thinner neck" option.



For me the standard thickness on my Aries AM7 is absolutely perfect. Would definitely not want anything thinner and it isn't anywhere near chunky territory. My Carvin C66 6-string has a far beefier neck.


----------



## Ziricote

Is he still offering the Kiesel edition guitar and does anyone know how much these cost to order and also what specs do they include unique!


----------



## laxu

spudmunkey said:


> New Andy James signature Crescent model. Besides the (I assume) standard Evertune and the (i assume) optional 12th fret inlay, I don't know how it might (if it does) differ from the similarly spec'd Crescent model.
> 
> View attachment 65814
> View attachment 65815
> View attachment 65816
> View attachment 65817
> View attachment 65818



Oh lord, that is one ugly guitar. It looks like what a 12 year old would paint his low end Ibanez or LTD if given a few rattle cans.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Ziricote said:


> Is he still offering the Kiesel edition guitar and does anyone know how much these cost to order and also what specs do they include unique!



Call My Guys


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

I mean THE guys. I am not Jeff


----------



## spudmunkey

Ziricote said:


> Is he still offering the Kiesel edition guitar and does anyone know how much these cost to order and also what specs do they include unique!



Yes, but he's limiting how many he's taking on to 12 per year, if I remember right. I don't remember the total, but I know for sure they start at *at least* $3,500. They include a top and matching back "top", and I believe the additional thin layers between them for a 5-piece body and matching 5-piece headstock, and a 5-piece neck. I believe it also includes upgraded "grades" of the top woods to at least one grade higher than standard. Note that I'm not one of "the guys" he said to call, so those are just what i think might kinda sorta I remember-ish.

Besides the tangible upgrades, it also includes build update photos from Jeff (no idea how many or how frequently), a separate serial number sequence ("K017", for example), and at least a phone call or two to talk through your build with Jeff. If you're looking for some ideas or suggestions for something unique, there've been people who said, "I want something with _____ vibe, and keep it under X-amount of dollars...other than that, go nuts." Jeff also picks out the woods specifically for your build, and I've seen people get options to pick from, but I don't know if that's always the case. I assume it also includes some sort of upgraded finishes without additional cost, but I don't know for sure.

Lastly, you also get to wait at least a month longer, possible longer.


----------



## spudmunkey

Ziricote said:


> Is he still offering the Kiesel edition guitar and does anyone know how much these cost to order and also what specs do they include unique!



To be clear, though...re-reading your post...are you talking about the Kiesel Edition upgrade package that you can apply to any model...or are you talking about the 70th Anniversary K series model? Pricing and specs are on their website. They start at $2799 with a bunch of included upgrades, and some other upgrades are discounted.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> I mean THE guys. I am not Jeff



*E X P O S E D*


----------



## xzacx

laxu said:


> Oh lord, that is one ugly guitar. It looks like what a 12 year old would paint his low end Ibanez or LTD if given a few rattle cans.


Exactly what I thought. I even think the Crescent is an OK looking model by Kiesel standards, but that paint job looks like a rattle can special—especially in satin.


----------



## LeviathanKiller

Spoke with Chris today and I'm placing my order through him. Was going to use the builder but the black limba headstock doesn't specifically state that the finish will match that of the body. He said to just pass the specs on to him to avoid any mistakes. Waiting for a reply and then my build will get a deposit to get started.


----------



## spudmunkey

Whatchu gettin'? Sorry if you mentioned it...if it was before the last page or two, I'm not digging. Ha!


----------



## LeviathanKiller

spudmunkey said:


> Whatchu gettin'? Sorry if you mentioned it...if it was before the last page or two, I'm not digging. Ha!



Mahogany Aries A7H in Crimson Red with a black limba top


----------



## Lord Voldemort

spudmunkey said:


> New Andy James signature Crescent model. Besides the (I assume) standard Evertune and the (i assume) optional 12th fret inlay, I don't know how it might (if it does) differ from the similarly spec'd Crescent model.
> 
> View attachment 65814
> View attachment 65815
> View attachment 65816
> View attachment 65817
> View attachment 65818



Oh man. It's like you took his red guitar, and put it in the ooze from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2. Andy James is a great guitarist but, ugh, that thing is hideous. 



Jeff said:


> That's some pretty insane stuff, man. Well done!





scratchNdentPrestige said:


> I like this sort of stuff, and your playing on it is great!
> 
> That guitar is nice, but I have some sort of mental block against the Kiesels with maple boards, just based on a Carvin I got off Ebay with one that was horribly grungy and scratched up. I suspect it was due previous owner rather than in inherit problem with tung oil on maple boards.



Cheers guys! You should reconsider your stance on that, I love the Birdseye Maple on that Vader.


----------



## crankyrayhanky

Lord Voldemort said:


> So, I'm in a nerdy ass power metal band (that's actually written about Dark Souls), and we recorded this little playthrough with my friend's absolutely gorgeous Vader.
> 
> 
> 
> I love my Osiris, but that Vader is something else man. It has the thinner neck profile too, and I might get that the next go around. I wonder if he'd sell it to me...




Dude that is outrageous! Love it!


LeviathanKiller said:


> Mahogany Aries A7H in Crimson Red with a black limba top


Cool! I look forward to seeing this one


----------



## LordCashew




----------



## spudmunkey

LordIronSpatula said:


>





Well...this is SEVENstring.org, no?


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Well that's beautiful and a little intimidating. That's what she said. Sorry.


----------



## Albake21

LeviathanKiller said:


> Mahogany Aries A7H in Crimson Red with a black limba top


Nice! I'm guessing you went with the 27" scale option?


----------



## LeviathanKiller

Albake21 said:


> Nice! I'm guessing you went with the 27" scale option?


Yup


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

LordIronSpatula said:


>



That looks sick. That bridge looks comfy as hell too.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Give it 2 years before it is discontinued because no one is buying it


----------



## technomancer

Finding it hilarious Kiesel is doing all the JBO6X (Becker Numbers Osiris) in-stocks that are supposed to come with a tung oil finish as raw tone so they have no returns on them... bit annoying really as I've liked a couple of them but have no idea if I would like the "thinner neck" they are putting on them.

It's also a bit odd as they are supposed to be limited to 100 and all signed and numbered, but none of the in-stocks have had the signature and numbering on them


----------



## MaxOfMetal

technomancer said:


> Finding it hilarious Kiesel is doing all the JBO6X (Becker Numbers Osiris) in-stocks that are supposed to come with a tung oil finish as raw tone so they have no returns on them... bit annoying really as I've liked a couple of them but have no idea if I would like the "thinner neck" they are putting on them.
> 
> It's also a bit odd as they are supposed to be limited to 100 and all signed and numbered, but none of the in-stocks have had the signature and numbering on them



Add that to my speculative list of what's to come:

The antique ash option will become the standard finish option for natural and transparent finishes. 

That way most cheaper/faster and more standard builds will be non-returnable. It'll be the easiest way to nullify the 10-day guarantee without actually removing it.


----------



## technomancer

MaxOfMetal said:


> Add that to my speculative list of what's to come:
> 
> The antique ash option will become the standard finish option for natural and transparent finishes.
> 
> That way most cheaper/faster and more standard builds will be non-returnable. It'll be the easiest way to nullify the 10-day guarantee without actually removing it.



I'd actually bet on the plain "rawtone" finish becoming standard. Cheaper and easier to do one coat of clear with no buffing than actually do a light stain.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

technomancer said:


> I'd actually bet on the plain "rawtone" finish becoming standard. Cheaper and easier to do one coat of clear with no buffing than actually do a light stain.



Yeah, totally meant raw tone. I get my made-up Kiesel finish names mixed up.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Raw Dog Finish is bare wood, non-returnable and no photos or further contact please.


----------



## technomancer

MaxOfMetal said:


> Yeah, totally meant raw tone. I get my made-up Kiesel finish names mixed up.



  

My favorite is still the "baked" finish that they get pissy about if somebody points out it's a finish and not a baked maple neck option


----------



## spudmunkey

technomancer said:


> My favorite is still the "baked" finish that they get pissy about if somebody points out it's a finish and not a baked maple neck option




I've seen them guve their explaination about why they dont offer real heat treated maple, but never once saw them "get pissy" at anyone pointing it out...I point it out myself all the time, and never once had a reply about it or a post removed.


----------



## technomancer

spudmunkey said:


> I've seen them guve their explaination about why they dont offer real heat treated maple, but never once saw them "get pissy" at anyone pointing it out...I point it out myself all the time, and never once had a reply about it or a post removed.



I guess all the posts deleted on the Kiesel Facebook group on the several occasions it came up were my imagination... including a few when I answered that no it was only a finish option and not actual baked maple. If I hadn't seen it happen I wouldn't have mentioned it.


----------



## spudmunkey

technomancer said:


> Finding it hilarious Kiesel is doing all the JBO6X (Becker Numbers Osiris) in-stocks that are supposed to come with a tung oil finish as raw tone so they have no returns on them...



Huh? What's supposed to come with a tung oil finish? The model comes standard with their Raw Tone finish. Even if it didn't, the model would be non-returnable just like the JB Vaders when they offered them a few years back, and just like every guitar sold in any of their limited runs.

If you're talking about the JB24 model coming in tung oil, then that still doesn't work for this one. They use the multi-colored logo, and that logo needs to have a layer of some sort of clear finish over it, and you can't just spray over that spot on the body and not spray the rest...so their closest finish to the look and feel of tung ol is their raw tone satin.

Which, by the way, isnt non-returnable on the Johnny Highland sig model.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

technomancer said:


> My favorite is still the "baked" finish that they get pissy about if somebody points out it's a finish and not a baked maple neck option





I liked it better when Fender called it "vintage tint".

Uh oh, Steve. You've really done it now.


----------



## spudmunkey

technomancer said:


> I guess all the posts deleted on the Kiesel Facebook group on the several occasions it came up were my imagination... including a few when I answered that no it was only a finish option and not actual baked maple. If I hadn't seen it happen I wouldn't have mentioned it



Fair enough. I can only speak about my own anecdotal experience, and I feel like I post it a couple time a week between FB and IG, and I've even had posts "liked" by kiesel, and never deleted, that I've seen.


----------



## technomancer

spudmunkey said:


> Huh? What's supposed to come with a tung oil finish? The model comes standard with their Raw Tone finish. Even if it didn't, the model would be non-returnable just like the JB Vaders when they offered them a few years back, and just like every guitar sold in any of their limited runs.
> 
> If you're talking about the JB24 model coming in tung oil, then that still doesn't work for this one. They use the multi-colored logo, and that logo needs to have a layer of some sort of clear finish over it, and you can't just spray over that spot on the body and not spray the rest...so their closest finish to the look and feel of tung ol is their raw tone satin.
> 
> Which, by the way, isnt non-returnable on the Johnny Highland sig model.



Mea culpa, I was wrong on this one. I thought the headless came with the same finish standard as the JB24 but I was incorrect. Also good to know their policies on what makes something non-returnable are inconsistent from model to model 

Since you are the Kiesel expert any idea why the signed and numbered limited edition in-stocks aren't signed and numbered?



spudmunkey said:


> Fair enough. I can only speak about my own anecdotal experience, and I feel like I post it a couple time a week between FB and IG, and I've even had posts "liked" by kiesel, and never deleted, that I've seen.



Fair enough, I dropped off the group a while ago so maybe they mellowed about it since then.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

technomancer said:


> I'd actually bet on the plain "rawtone" finish becoming standard. Cheaper and easier to do one coat of clear with no buffing than actually do a light stain.



I'd agree but they only offer it when you buy a top or get an ash body. That is at least in the online builder


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Hey just to add. Those are still limited. I think they didn't sell their first 100 batch


----------



## Lord Voldemort

I don't know about all that, but I do find it hilarious that Kiesel deletes so much shit from their page. I'll see a post that's as simple as 'I had a poor customer service experience, yada yada yada', and within five minutes it has 70 comments, and within 10 minutes it's gone. 

Gotta let your customers talk about that shit, man.


----------



## Hollowway

Lord Voldemort said:


> I don't know about all that, but I do find it hilarious that Kiesel deletes so much shit from their page. I'll see a post that's as simple as 'I had a poor customer service experience, yada yada yada', and within five minutes it has 70 comments, and within 10 minutes it's gone.
> 
> Gotta let your customers talk about that shit, man.



Yeah, there have been numerous studies showing that potential customers are skeptical of a company with no negative reviews online, and that they respond well to companies that acknowledge, take ownership, and attempt to rectify bad customer experiences. Hiding these things isn't helping. I love Kiesel instruments, but as I've said before, Jeff's (fragile) ego is the biggest thing holding this company back.


----------



## spudmunkey

technomancer said:


> any idea why the signed and numbered limited edition in-stocks aren't signed and numbered?



No idea. I saw someone on the forum post that there's wasn't signed, and they paid to take it back to sign/number and re-ship it...but that's all I know.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> No idea. I saw someone on the forum post that there's wasn't signed, and they paid to take it back to sign/number and re-ship it...but that's all I know.



If they didnt sign it and THEY promised to sign it as part of a run or something, they should pay all shipping charges.


----------



## Jeff

MatiasTolkki said:


> If they didnt sign it and THEY promised to sign it as part of a run or something, they should pay all shipping charges.



THEY did.


----------



## Albake21

Well the new prices are updated on the site. I gotta be honest here, I'm pretty turned off by them. Pretty much everything increased, options and all. It's to the point where it's becoming not worth the price. To the point where I'd rather just buy a used Prestige, mod it, and get it refinished.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> Well the new prices are updated on the site. I gotta be honest here, I'm pretty turned off by them. Pretty much everything increased, options and all. It's to the point where it's becoming not worth the price. To the point where I'd rather just buy a used Prestige, mod it, and get it refinished.



Looking at a thread on the forums about the price increases, they are quite considerable upcharges. Ouch. Guess my next custom guitar will be a Kazu when i get the 350,000 yen together.


----------



## spudmunkey

It looks like, besides the K series, the biggest price increase is $100 on some models like the DC line. The K series went up more, but you get wood they normally charged more for (now you get their "master grade" instead of the 5A figured maples or 4A flamed koa).

Apparently the walnut/purpleheart 5-piece neck went _down_ $10. :lo:


----------



## spudmunkey

A couple of updates from the past few FB Live videos and their Instagram:

4054 instruments sold in 2018
$7.5 million in sales
Average sale: $1850-1900-ish

When combined with Carvin Audio, it was around 5 million total for both branches, for 10-15 years. The first year after the split, kiesel alone broke $6m.

PB bass is now Kiesel-branded, and has the sloped neck heel. This means there are two remaining models still badged as Carvin: Classic Bolt, and JB200C.

K series went up $400, which was the biggest price increase by $300, but it now comes standard with "Master grade" tops.

February 1st is the 5th anniversary of the Kiesel split/rebrand.

Body binding available on the Solo. All options are ok, but it has to have a top. I'm not exactly sure how they differ, but the CNC program for the solo is different for a model with a top than for one without. And so far, they have only programmed in the Binding option for a body with a top. It is the same multilayer binding that they have offered for years, which I believe is an outside layer of the plastic red tortoiseshell, a middle white layer, and an inner black Layer. You do have to give up the forearm contour though that that that the top just will be flat, just as it was when they offered the binding on the tl60 and sc90.

Custom inlays: safe to say "probably not" for 2019. Would love to do it, but it would likely be 2020 or later. Currently not a priority.

Paraphrased: "The Bolt and Jason Becker JB200C I see as 'Carvin' all the way through. If I don't use the Carvin name, someone else can. You can't just register a name and not use it. We'll always offer something with the Carvin brand on it. The name is a part of our history and don't want to let that go."

Between 1-1/2 and 2 years ago, they announced that they wouldn't be placing any new orders for the bespoke parts to make their unique 22-pole humbuckers. This would be the C22, M22, H22, FG22 and S22 pickups. Right off the bat, the S22 were stripped from the product offering once they released their optional metal covers for their other 12-pole pickups. However, it does appear that we might be getting close to the end. Someone on the FB group mentioned that they were told that they might be getting one of the last sets of the H22, and then someone noticed that they were actually removed from the website, along with the FG22. The C22 and M22 are still there, but my hunch is perhaps not much longer.

New active pickups are coming, called "Polaris", with a standard-shaped bobbin, "open coil" style design. The first ones shown and teased had purple-stained flamed maple bobbins...because of course they did.




Oh, and also...



From someone's post on FB:
"Its acrylic and Brandon Ewing said they are only doing this to syow off the internal work of their guitars at NAMM so everyone can see exactly what's going on (electronics, wiring, truss rod, carbon fiber rods, etc..)"


----------



## MatiasTolkki

@spudmunkey 

According to Chris, at some point the ONLY Carvin-branded guitar may be the JB200 as that will ALWAYS have the Carvin logo. They are trying to distance themselves as far as they can from the carvin name for whatever reason, which seems kinda petty. Why not just allow us "more options" and the option to get a Carvin logo V220 or something? That just reeks of Jeff's ego imo.


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> @spudmunkey They are trying to distance themselves as far as they can from the carvin name for whatever reason, which seems kinda petty. Why not just allow us "more options" and the option to get a Carvin logo V220 or something? That just reeks of Jeff's ego imo.



This has been gone over a billion times...I'm perplexed as to how you think that out of all the legitimate reasons they have to NOT use that name anymore, that the one you cling to is Jeff's ego.

I know you know this: the "carvin" name has nothing to do with the people who run it now. Not even Jeff's dad who designed the models you love(d)...who ran the guitar division for...like...40 years. The company was named after his brothers who were going to close the instrument division before Mark Kiesel was given the reigns. Claiming they should stick with their old name just because of "heritage" is like saying LG should still be called "Lucky and Goldstar", Pepsi should still be called "Brad's Drink" and Yahoo should still be called "Jerry and David’s Guide to the World Wide Web". The NES should be called the MCES because it should be the "Marufuku Company Entertainment System." Should VW go back to Gesellschaft zur Vorbereitung des Deutschen Volkswagens mbH?

Do you actually think it would have been a good business decision to keep going by "Carvin", with the future of Carvin Audio seeming to tumultuous and "iffy" at best? I mean...as confused as some people still are (calling Kiesel on the phone about Carvin Amps, for example), could you imagine how much more confusing it would have been for John Q. Public if they were still Carvin Custom Guitars when Carvin Audio actually went out of business and closed their factory?

You're free to have a preference over which name you like better, but the fact of the matter is that something's working for them with record sales (quantities and dollars), even out-pacing sales of what they used to sell with a full catalog of the models and pickups you fondly remember, EVEN WHEN COMBINED with their array of amplifiers, recording, and live performance pro audio equipment and accessories. Shedding that "heritage" is seemingly the best thing they've done for their business in a couple of decades.

And with all of the changes that they have made, turning them into a company you don't like (or at least is co-headed by someone you don't like), you somehow think they should be forced to still use their "old" name. Do you think that would somehow fix anything in your mind? They are a different company, with a different name.

If they still went by Carvin, do you honestly not think you'd be on the front lines, screaming, "You're not the Carvin I knew anymore! How dare you still use that name!"


----------



## Seabeast2000

MatiasTolkki said:


> @spudmunkey
> 
> According to Chris, at some point the ONLY Carvin-branded guitar may be the JB200 as that will ALWAYS have the Carvin logo. They are trying to distance themselves as far as they can from the carvin name for whatever reason, which seems kinda petty. Why not just allow us "more options" and the option to get a Carvin logo V220 or something? That just reeks of Jeff's ego imo.



Shut up.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

another day another matias post bitching ablut kiesel


----------



## MatiasTolkki

The906 said:


> Shut up.



piss off


----------



## diagrammatiks

KnightBrolaire said:


> another day another matias post bitching ablut kiesel



But buys a Kiesel like clockwork. At least this thread exists and we can keep him in here and the Ibanez thread. Like a petting zoo


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Hey, @The906 and @KnightBrolaire come on guy, don't feed the troll.

Same @spudmunkey , I know you're obligated to defend even the most slight criticism of Kiesel, but I don't think you're going to win over your boy Mati.


----------



## bracky

Combine ignorance with an axe to grind and you have Matias. He must be like 12 years old.


----------



## cip 123

bracky said:


> Combine ignorance with an axe to grind and you have Matias. He must be like 12 years old.


Or secretly Jeff Kiesel


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

cip 123 said:


> Or secretly Jeff Kiesel



Or what if. There was a split in Jeff's personality and MAttias was birthed from the insecurities and self loathing for the kiesel brand. He is secretly another consciousness in Jeff's head. DUN DUN DUN


----------



## Lord Voldemort

The906 said:


> Shut up.





MatiasTolkki said:


> piss off



America vs Britain, non-banworthy insults edition?

My Osiris came with a burr in one of the saddles, apparently, I've broken 9 E strings since I got it about a month ago. Called them up, they're replacing the saddle, and they said if I wasn't comfortable with that they'd take it back and replace it themselves, on the house. 

Pretty cool of them, thought I'd share.


----------



## gunch

Generally (GENERALLY, now) do they turn up well set up and ready to play, no fuss?

Thinking about getting a bare bones aries, JB, vanquish or dc600


----------



## KnightBrolaire

silverabyss said:


> Generally (GENERALLY, now) do they turn up well set up and ready to play, no fuss?
> 
> Thinking about getting a bare bones aries, JB, vanquish or dc600


never had a problem with any of my builds from them in terms of setup. ymmv


----------



## crankyrayhanky

silverabyss said:


> Generally (GENERALLY, now) do they turn up well set up and ready to play, no fuss?
> 
> Thinking about getting a bare bones aries, JB, vanquish or dc600


I had no fuss with my AM7
Great out of the box


----------



## cip 123

Are all the Kiesel models announced or is it all NAMM? Just interested to see any more Becker stuff


----------



## makecamera

silverabyss said:


> Generally (GENERALLY, now) do they turn up well set up and ready to play, no fuss?
> 
> Thinking about getting a bare bones aries, JB, vanquish or dc600



Both my V8 and VM7 were setup well and were ready to play, however I set them up to my own preferences, particularly for drop tuning.


----------



## Hollowway

KnightBrolaire said:


> never had a problem with any of my builds from them in terms of setup. ymmv


Yep. Over the years I’ve had 4 new ones and a few used ones. The new ones all were fine from the get go (except one had a bum saddle). I prefer to get them used, unless I can still return them, though. Less scary that way!


----------



## spudmunkey

cip 123 said:


> Are all the Kiesel models announced or is it all NAMM? Just interested to see any more Becker stuff



No way to know for sure. I suspect there will be a more "formal" announcement of several signature artist packages on existing models. I saw an Instagram post a week or two ago that seemed to show 3 different 12th fret inlay designs that were round logos, similar to what we've seen on the Andy James model.

From what i understand, the Andy James sig model will be a limited package of options (which I *think* i saw someone say was 5 color variations of his black and Kiesel Racing green guitar, and the black and red one), but most notably there actually is a slight difference to the body compared to the standard Crescent: on the treble side of the body, where the body meets the neck, there's a more pronounced "step" on the standard model. On the Andy James signature, this is shaved down a bit so that it's smoother. I don't know if his signature will have EMGs or the new Kiesel active "Polaris" pickups though...

Cam Liddell from Asking Alexandiria will have a signature model package as well. 25.5" scale SCB (the SCB has been 25" standard, and I believe it still will be...but they've had 25.5" scale as an option for a short while now). I believe standard it will have a Swamp ash top and body, walnut and bloodwood neck (3-piece, I *think*) bloodwood fretboard and bloodwood headplate. A standard feature is that the headstock will match the fretboard. It'll have the Thorium bridge humbucker. It'll be standard with 2 pickups, 5-way and 2 knobs, but is available with just a bridge pickup and vol knob.


----------



## Glades

My Kiesel played beautifully right outta the box. Best playing guitar I've ever laid my hands on.


----------



## Albake21

I only had one Kiesel play poorly out of the box, but I'll be fair that I asked for a Drop B setup with strings I sent in. Thankfully I don't mind setting up my own guitars so it was a quick fix.


----------



## juka

silverabyss said:


> Generally (GENERALLY, now) do they turn up well set up and ready to play, no fuss?
> 
> Thinking about getting a bare bones aries, JB, vanquish or dc600



My Zeus 7 was spot on, even still perfectly in tune after traveling over the big pond.


----------



## juka

spudmunkey said:


> ...I don't know if his signature will have EMGs or the new Kiesel active "Polaris" pickups though...



According to yesterday's live feed on Instagram with Jeff and Andy all his signature guitars from now on will have Polarity pickups only. He said he might keep some old ones equipped with EMGs, but thinks about bringing his red sig over to NAMM to have the EMGs replaced by Polarity PUs


----------



## I play music

juka said:


> According to yesterday's live feed on Instagram with Jeff and Andy all his signature guitars from now on will have Polarity pickups only. He said he might keep some old ones equipped with EMGs, but thinks about bringing his red sig over to NAMM to have the EMGs replaced by Polarity PUs


Their product names must be the most stupid ones I've ever heard .. Polaris pickups, Lithium pickups, Zeus guitar but Mr Kiesel has no idea how to pronounce the word Zeus, ...


----------



## Cynicanal

spudmunkey said:


> A standard feature is that the headstock will match the fretboard. It'll have the Thorium bridge humbucker. It'll be standard with 2 pickups, 5-way and 2 knobs, but is available with just a bridge pickup and vol knob.


Does this mean they have a six-string Thorium, or does Cam play a seven string?


----------



## spudmunkey

Cynicanal said:


> Does this mean they have a six-string Thorium, or does Cam play a seven string?



I believe they do have the thorium pickups completed in the 6, 7, and 8 string varieties. As for his signature model, that I don't recall if he mentioned, and don't know enough about him as a player to know what he would play.


----------



## Snarpaasi

I play music said:


> Their product names must be the most stupid ones I've ever heard .. Polaris pickups, Lithium pickups, Zeus guitar but Mr Kiesel has no idea how to pronounce the word Zeus, ...



They are mythical marketing names. Then again Ibanez uses internal product catalogue names, RGDAFGBRZ667-1. Which one is better?


----------



## Seabeast2000

Snarpaasi said:


> They are mythical marketing names. Then again Ibanez uses internal product catalogue names, RGDAFGBRZ667-1. Which one is better?


All hail the RGART.


----------



## Albake21

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I love Ibanez' naming schemes. When explained once, it's very easy to understand what it means. Not only that, but it allows for specific specs and models rather than another "Strat". How the hell am I supposed to know the specs of a "2006 Fender Strat"? I love that I can just google an Ibanez model number and learn every single detail about that model.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Albake21 said:


> Maybe I'm in the minority, but I love Ibanez' naming schemes. When explained once, it's very easy to understand what it means. Not only that, but it allows for specific specs and models rather than another "Strat". How the hell am I supposed to know the specs of a "2006 Fender Strat"? I love that I can just google an Ibanez model number and learn every single detail about that model.


It does make finding model specs pretty easy, same with wiring schematics (which was hugely helpful when I was first learning how to do my own pickup installs and such).


----------



## I play music

Snarpaasi said:


> They are mythical marketing names. Then again Ibanez uses internal product catalogue names, RGDAFGBRZ667-1. Which one is better?


Ibanez.


----------



## Jeff

Albake21 said:


> Maybe I'm in the minority, but I love Ibanez' naming schemes. When explained once, it's very easy to understand what it means. Not only that, but it allows for specific specs and models rather than another "Strat". How the hell am I supposed to know the specs of a "2006 Fender Strat"? I love that I can just google an Ibanez model number and learn every single detail about that model.



I loved Ibanez’s scheme when they made sense. Now it’s not as straightforward to me.


----------



## Albake21

Jeff said:


> I loved Ibanez’s scheme when they made sense. Now it’s not as straightforward to me.


The only thing I find not as straight forward are the numbers, they keep going back and forth with the Prestige series having 3 to 4 digits. As far as the letters, they just stand for the body shape, then series, then woods used, then if it's a trem or fixed bridge.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Albake21 said:


> The only thing I find not as straight forward are the numbers, they keep going back and forth with the Prestige series having 3 to 4 digits. As far as the letters, they just stand for the body shape, then series, then woods used, then if it's a trem or fixed bridge.



It's even more complicated that. 

Such a cluster fuck. They need to keep to a single unified format, at least for each shape.


----------



## Albake21

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's even more complicated that.
> 
> Such a cluster fuck. They need to keep to a single unified format, at least for each shape.


It may be a cluster fuck, but I still love Ibanez for keeping that cluster fuck


----------



## spudmunkey

Product names don't bother me unless it sounds like they are trying too hard, like "Super Eagle Death Claw" or "Evil Blood Murder Funeral". "Polatiry" is a fine name. So is "Lithium". Beryllium is a little odd to me, but so is "Air Norton" to me (the name may have some legit pedigree that I've just never looked into, but the name is just odd-sounding). Parallax (the Greg Howe pickup) is OK, too. Illusionist (the Lee McKinney pickup) is on the edge of try-hard. But nothing like "Nail Bomb" or "Brute Force", IMO.

I much prefer car names than the alphabet soup so many get. Even if it's the same car, I'd rather drive a Zephyr than an MKZ. I get why they do it (there's few language/translation issues with just an alphanumeric desingation), but it's just not memorable to me. Yes, I get that having a guitar's GPS coordinates as it's model name helps identify every spec on it, but it's very "cold" to me, and I feel like there's a "branding" disconnect. "Strats vs teles" paints a much more emotional picture in 90% of the guitar buying public than "RGA61AL vs SRG450QMZD"...even though these model numbers tell you more about those specific guitars.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Albake21 said:


> It may be a cluster fuck, but I still love Ibanez for keeping that cluster fuck



Yeah, I still like numbers and such more than names. I just miss being able to know what models are which without looking it up. 



spudmunkey said:


> Product names don't bother me unless it sounds like they are trying to hard, like "Super Eagle Death Claw" or "Evil Blood Murder Funeral". "Polaris" is a fine name. So is "Lithium". Beryllium is a little odd to me, but so is "Air Norton" to me (the name may have some legit pedigree that I've just never looked into, but the name is just odd-sounding). Parallax (the Greg Howe pickup) is OK, too. Illusionist (the Lee McKinney pickup) is on the edge of try-hard. But nothing like "Nail Bomb" or "Brute Force", IMO.
> 
> I much prefer car names than the alphabet soup so many get. Even if it's the same car, I'd rather drive a Zephyr than an MKZ. I get why they do it (there's few language/translation issues with just an alphanumeric desingation), but it's just not memorable to me. Yes, I get that having a guitar's GPS coordinates as it's model name helps identify every spec on it, but it's very "cold" to me, and I feel like there's a "branding" disconnect. "Strats vs teles" paints a much more emotional picture in 90% of the guitar buying public than "RGA61AL vs SRG450QMZD"...even though these model numbers tell you more about those specific guitars.



I think the Kiesel names are completely inoffensive. They're simple and mostly something you've heard before.

The one thing I don't like about just names is that it leads into sprawling model names.

Like "Les Paul Standard Plus Top Bigsby" or "American Deluxe Telecaster HH Trem".


----------



## spudmunkey

Fair point. But those things are also easier to remember, at least the way by brain works. I remember my last Ibanez was an S540...or was it a S450? Shit...I was so sure I remembered it...but I remember the "Les Paul Studio" and "American Standard Stratocaster" I had before it. I remember my Kiesel Aries as a "Kiesel Aries, with the Hipshot fixed" would tell a lay-person more than "A6H".


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> Fair point. But those things are also easier to remember, at least the way by brain works. I remember my last Ibanez was an S540...or was it a S450? Shit...I was so sure I remembered it...but I remember the "Les Paul Studio" and "American Standard Stratocaster" I had before it..


But my problem here is if you told me you have a Les Paul Studio, I have no way of knowing exactly what that is. What year, specs, anything really. Where as an S540 can tell me every detail I'd want with either knowledge of Ibanez' models or a quick google search.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> Fair point. But those things are also easier to remember, at least the way by brain works. I remember my last Ibanez was an S540...or was it a S450? Shit...I was so sure I remembered it...but I remember the "Les Paul Studio" and "American Standard Stratocaster" I had before it. I remember my Kiesel Aries as a "Kiesel Aries, with the Hipshot fixed" would tell a lay-person more than "A6H".



If it had Ibanez pickups it was an S450, if they were DiMarzio it was an S540. That first number denotes hardware/electronics tier. 

I'm sick. I need help.


----------



## Seabeast2000

MaxOfMetal said:


> If it had Ibanez pickups it was an S450, if they were DiMarzio it was an S540. That first number denotes hardware/electronics tier.
> 
> I'm sick. I need help.


Omg that is a bad system


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> If it had Ibanez pickups it was an S450, if they were DiMarzio it was an S540. That first number denotes hardware/electronics tier.
> 
> I'm sick. I need help.



Ha! Thanks... S540LTD in Jewel Blue. Now let's see if i remember that model number in another year.


----------



## xzacx

The Kiesel names are very on-brand IMO. It's not a brand I'm into, but pretty much exactly what I'd expect—like a mashup of sci-fi and mid-2000s-Affliction design sensibilities in word form.


----------



## spudmunkey

xzacx said:


> The Kiesel names are very on-brand IMO. It's not a brand I'm into, but pretty much exactly what I'd expect—like a mashup of sci-fi and mid-2000s-Affliction design sensibilities in word form.



Don't forget the auto industry. Xcellerator, Vanquish, Ferrari Red, McLaren Yellow, Grabber Blue, Kiesel Racing Green and Orange...I have to assume Solo is a dual Star Wars/racing-themed name...hmm...am I missing any?


----------



## spudmunkey

Andy James sig model details from instagram:

@andyjamesguitar new Signature Model is available as a 7 ($1999.00) or 6 ($1949.00) standard features are:
• 25.5” scale 24 Frets
• Alder Body and Maple Top
• Ebony Fretboard • Maple Neck
• Dual Carbon Fiber Rods in Neck
• 6100 Nickel Jumbo Dunlop Frets [Interesting...not SS]
• Luminlay Side Dots
• New Polarity Active Pickups
• Color Matched Pickups to Burst • Evertune Bridge
• Satin Black with CaliBurst
• AJ Logo on Fretboard
• Chose your burst/pickup colors From Gun Metal, Kiesel Green, Blood Red, Blue or Gold to make this your very own signature model
***The one shown has Gun Metal Burst and Optional Gun Metal Painted Back with Black Binding - this adds $400.00***
•
Andy will be performing at our [NAMM] booth on Friday at 2:00pm










So...let's break it down.

The standard Crescent 6-string is $1499. Evertune adds $300, so that's $1799. Which means that everything else is $150 upcharge compared to the Crescent: new Active pickups with color-matched bobbins, burst paint finish, the AJ logo inlay. If you want those, the pricing seems reasonable. The normal burst finishes are $40 on the Crescent, so the inlay upgrade, active pickup upgrade and the color-matched bobbins adds $110.

So all-in all, it's seemingly not a "deal" where it costs less than a similarly-equipped base model (like say, the DC400W used to be where it was just an optioned-up DC127 but you saved $5-25 by getting it bundled), but doesn't appear to be a "rip off" like some artist signatures can sometimes be...that is if you're interested in the included specs, like the bridge, pickups and inlay.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Vader


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> Andy James sig model details from instagram:
> 
> @andyjamesguitar new Signature Model is available as a 7 ($1999.00) or 6 ($1949.00) standard features are:
> • 25.5” scale 24 Frets
> • Alder Body and Maple Top
> • Ebony Fretboard • Maple Neck
> • Dual Carbon Fiber Rods in Neck
> • 6100 Nickel Jumbo Dunlop Frets [Interesting...not SS]
> • Luminlay Side Dots
> • New Polarity Active Pickups
> • Color Matched Pickups to Burst • Evertune Bridge
> • Satin Black with CaliBurst
> • AJ Logo on Fretboard
> • Chose your burst/pickup colors From Gun Metal, Kiesel Green, Blood Red, Blue or Gold to make this your very own signature model
> ***The one shown has Gun Metal Burst and Optional Gun Metal Painted Back with Black Binding - this adds $400.00***
> •
> Andy will be performing at our [NAMM] booth on Friday at 2:00pm
> 
> View attachment 66294
> View attachment 66295
> View attachment 66298
> View attachment 66297
> View attachment 66296


I waned to post it, but I knew you were already on the case lol. I actually really like this silver one.


----------



## spudmunkey

Albake21 said:


> I waned to post it, but I knew you were already on the case lol. I actually really like this silver one.



I've since edited the post to include a pricing comparison breakdown to the Crescent.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

KnightBrolaire said:


> It does make finding model specs pretty easy, same with wiring schematics (which was hugely helpful when I was first learning how to do my own pickup installs and such).



Yeah, I remember when I first got into Ibanez I actually discovered a lot of models that I wouldn't have known about otherwise by trying different model numbers that I put together with a cursory understanding of the naming scheme. That's how I found out about some of the lesser known Prestiges and spot models


----------



## spudmunkey

As garrish and "not me" as the model is, I wouldn't kick that gunmetal one out of bed for eating crackers. Or a blue one, as long as the back was black. Andy or his music don't mean enough to me, though, for the inlay to have any positive value. Maybe I could paint over it with some black paint and make it look like a Type-O logo or something...


----------



## spudmunkey

spudmunkey said:


> View attachment 66222
> 
> 
> From someone's post on FB:
> "Its acrylic and Brandon Ewing said they are only doing this to syow off the internal work of their guitars at NAMM so everyone can see exactly what's going on (electronics, wiring, truss rod, carbon fiber rods, etc..)"



Update:



Even the neck is clear (you can see the blue-wrapped truss rod and the two carbon fiber rods).


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> Update:
> View attachment 66299
> 
> 
> Even the neck is clear (you can see the blue-wrapped truss rod and the two carbon fiber rods).



I remember when Fender and Ibanez did that at NAMM years and years ago. 

I was able to hold the clear JS. The thing weighed 20lbs easy! 

Looks freaking cool though.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

spudmunkey said:


> Update:
> View attachment 66299
> 
> 
> Even the neck is clear (you can see the blue-wrapped truss rod and the two carbon fiber rods).



That is _*sick*_. Shame that isn't really a production option because I'd be so aggressively on board.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Ordacleaphobia said:


> That is _*sick*_. Shame that isn't really a production option because I'd be so aggressively on board.



So that would be a 20 lb Aries?


----------



## spudmunkey

About that, i think. Acrylic is about .042 per square inch. Anyone care to do some volume/weight calculations? 

My local store growing up had a green/yellow BC Rich Mockingbird and it was ungodly heavy.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

The906 said:


> So that would be a 20 lb Aries?



Legit might be worth it.


----------



## cardinal

Meh. Should have used burl acrylic with a fade finish.


----------



## spudmunkey

cardinal said:


> Meh. Should have used burl acrylic with a fade finish.



That _would_ be rad.


----------



## spudmunkey

https://www.instagram.com/p/BswXO9QnB3w/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=kmtk8bvcxd5f


----------



## Snarpaasi

About opinions which naming style is better, don't forget Kiesel makes semicustom guitars. Theres no way they could apply similar to Ibanez detailed model naming method. To me DC600 is the most sensible and gives enough of an idea what it is. Zeus is a bit too much hype bullshit. Luckily there is only one "Destroyer" guitar model which sounds absolutely ridiculous.


----------



## spudmunkey

With the DC600, how does that differ from their old DC6? And why is the DC6 closer to their CS6 than the DC600? The mind bottles.


----------



## Hollowway

Regarding the AJ sig (and sig guitars in general) - does the artist get a cut of the sale? Or does the artist only benefit on free/reduced cost guitars? I’m wondering if the upcharge on the average sig is because it goes to the artist.


----------



## cip 123

Hollowway said:


> Regarding the AJ sig (and sig guitars in general) - does the artist get a cut of the sale? Or does the artist only benefit on free/reduced cost guitars? I’m wondering if the upcharge on the average sig is because it goes to the artist.



I believe it varies artist to artist (stating the obvious I know) but I'm sure someone dropped letchford or someone else's deal in here before. But I think some get a cut some just get a discount/free guitars.

Becker is the obvious one to get a cut, it's stated he gets a portion of each sale to help with medical bills. I hope it really is helping out, it must suck to have an ongoing illness such as ALS and be in the US medical system.


----------



## Hollowway

cip 123 said:


> I believe it varies artist to artist (stating the obvious I know) but I'm sure someone dropped letchford or someone else's deal in here before. But I think some get a cut some just get a discount/free guitars.
> 
> Becker is the obvious one to get a cut, it's stated he gets a portion of each sale to help with medical bills. I hope it really is helping out, it must suck to have an ongoing illness such as ALS and be in the US medical system.



Yeah, and in a case like Jason’s I specifically WANT to pay extra, if I know it’s going toward him. With it being so hard to make a living in music these days, I’m ok with paying a little extra, the guitar manufacturing making a little less, so we can support our favorite musicians. But I didn’t know if that was an across the board thing, or what.


----------



## narad

spudmunkey said:


> https://www.instagram.com/p/BswXO9QnB3w/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=kmtk8bvcxd5f



Easily the coolest thing kiesel ever made.


----------



## spudmunkey

Looks like it, too...like it's made of ice.

I'm amused by many of the comments on FB and IG.

Jeff: "I made this to show how our guitars are built."

Social Meditards: "I don't like how wiring looks. You should use PCBs or block the control cavity with mirrors." *facepalm*

J: "But that's not how our guitars are built."

J: "It weighs 13lbs".

SM: "13lbs? Who would ever play a guitar that heavy?!" (as bass-players look on with bemusement)

J: "It's not meant to be played, it's meant to be a display of what goes into our guitars"

SM: "Here's jeff: 'I don't like the tone of plastic, I only like using wood' and now this. Another lie, just like how he said they'll never to headless, multiscale and fluence pickups."


----------



## diagrammatiks

spudmunkey said:


> Looks like it, too...like it's made of ice.
> 
> I'm amused by many of the comments on FB and IG.
> 
> Jeff: "I made this to show how our guitars are built."
> 
> Social Meditards: "I don't like how wiring looks. You should use PCBs or block the control cavity with mirrors." *facepalm*
> 
> J: "But that's not how our guitars are built."
> 
> J: "It weighs 13lbs".
> 
> SM: "13lbs? Who would ever play a guitar that heavy?!" (as bass-players look on with bemusement)
> 
> J: "It's not meant to be played, it's meant to be a display of what goes into our guitars"
> 
> SM: "Here's jeff: 'I don't like the tone of plastic, I only like using wood' and now this. Another lie, just like how he said they'll never to headless, multiscale and fluence pickups."



Sooo. Mattias?


----------



## Seabeast2000

"He should spend more time bringing the entire carvin line back and less on space guitars"


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

"I am still disappointed they discontinued the M22 pickup"


----------



## Albake21

If anyone ever wanted a 7 string strat, it looks like Jeff just announced a new strat model called the Del Mar. Comes in a 6 and 7 string.


----------



## xzacx

Albake21 said:


> If anyone ever wanted a 7 string strat, it looks like Jeff just announced a new strat model called the Del Mar. Comes in a 6 and 7 string.


Of course Kiesel is going to overdo the translucent thing now, but I gotta admit it looks cool too. I’ve seen people asking for 7 string “Strats” on here forever—I could see them selling a lot of these. Even 6s as a cheaper/faster alternative to Fender Custom Shop/Suhr. Seems like a pretty good move.


----------



## Albake21

xzacx said:


> Of course Kiesel is going to overdo the translucent thing now, but I gotta admit it looks cool too. I’ve seen people asking for 7 string “Strats” on here forever—I could see them selling a lot of these. Even 6s as a cheaper/faster alternative to Fender Custom Shop/Suhr. Seems like a pretty good move.


The clear guitar is not something they are selling. It's just a NAMM show piece to show the inside of their guitars.


----------



## Seabeast2000

xzacx said:


> Of course Kiesel is going to overdo the translucent thing now, but I gotta admit it looks cool too. I’ve seen people asking for 7 string “Strats” on here forever—I could see them selling a lot of these. Even 6s as a cheaper/faster alternative to Fender Custom Shop/Suhr. Seems like a pretty good move.



That is the first thing I though of as well. Production 7 string Strats with all the usual Kiesel options like SS and whatever else. Could be a hit. I'm paying attention.


----------



## cardinal

Looks really nice, even with the extra frets. 

Of course this happens when mostly play 8s now and no mention of 8 string options.


----------



## gunshow86de

Albake21 said:


> The clear guitar is not something they are selling. It's just a NAMM show piece to show the inside of their guitars.



It's insane how many people on the Instagram posts aren't getting this. I guess the 1-3 sentence long captions are too much to read.


----------



## Bdtunn

Huh kept it classy and didn’t “kiesel” it 
This could be a problem!


----------



## ramses

7-string strat? My prayers have been answered!


----------



## xzacx

Albake21 said:


> The clear guitar is not something they are selling. It's just a NAMM show piece to show the inside of their guitars.


I know that, I just think using it to showcase multiple models is overkill after the first one. Unless they’ve done it for all of their models, which would actually be really cool.


----------



## Hollowway

Hmm, I’m digging the idea of a 7 string strat. Maybe I can get a pink sparkle version and pretend it’s the Ohmura Snapper sig. I always liked the look of those things.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

They seem to be Strats only in profile, and the pickguard. Are single coils going to be an option?


----------



## xzacx

MaxOfMetal said:


> They seem to be Strats only in profile, and the pickguard. Are single coils going to be an option?


I’m not a Kiesel expert, but it seems like most models are available in most pickup configurations. I can’t imagine they’d do a model like this and have that be an exception. Wouldn’t make sense to do this model at all if it wasn’t available, but it is a little weird that the unveil didn’t use singles. Then again it’s Jeff, so what makes sense to him and what makes sense to most of us are two different things.

Side note: I wonder if there’s a new headstock option to go with this too? I’m not sure which of the current offerings would look very good with it.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

xzacx said:


> I’m not a Kiesel expert, but it seems like most models are available in most pickup configurations. I can’t imagine they’d do a model like this and have that be an exception. Wouldn’t make sense to do this model at all if it wasn’t available, but it is a little weird that the unveil didn’t use singles. Then again it’s Jeff, so what makes sense to him and what makes sense to most of us are two different things.



Some models are available in a few pickup configurations, and anything not in the builder is typically an upcharge in addition to voiding the warranty. 

I don't think they have anything outside of a couple 6-strings available in SSS. 

Do they even have 7-string single coils anymore?


----------



## xzacx

MaxOfMetal said:


> Some models are available in a few pickup configurations, and anything not in the builder is typically an upcharge in addition to voiding the warranty.
> 
> I don't think they have anything outside of a couple 6-strings available in SSS.
> 
> Do they even have 7-string single coils anymore?


Yeah, now that you say it, I guess everything I’m thinking of is a 6. I know I’ve seen some of their headless models in 3-single configuration but not 7s. A lack of single coil options is probably one of the reasons there aren’t more 7-string Strats in the first place.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

xzacx said:


> Yeah, now that you say it, I guess everything I’m thinking of is a 6. I know I’ve seen some of their headless models in 3-single configuration but not 7s. A lack of single coil options is probably one of the reasons there aren’t more 7-string Strats in the first place.



Kiesel does all pickups in house, so I don't see it being a factor unless they don't want to make them specifically.


----------



## cardinal

I think they still do even 8-string single coils, and I’ve seen SSS 7-string Aries. What is and isn’t option 50 has always been vague to me, particularly as their online builder has some obvious holes (some finish options for example don’t appear for some of the 8-strings, but things like antique ash and rear natural clear just have to be available if you call).


----------



## MaxOfMetal

cardinal said:


> I think they still do even 8-string single coils, and I’ve seen SSS 7-string Aries. What is and isn’t option 50 has always been vague to me, particularly as their online builder has some obvious holes (some finish options for example don’t appear for some of the 8-strings, but things like antique ash and rear natural clear just have to be available if you call).



Nothing is on the builder and I wouldn't touch anything OP50.


----------



## cardinal

MaxOfMetal said:


> Nothing is on the builder and I wouldn't touch anything OP50.



The builder lets you make an SSS Solo 8 if you want for an extra $50. So it’s there for at least some things. 

I think the builder just has some holes but things probably are available as standard options. For example, the Antique Ash finish option or rear natural clear doesn’t appear for the Osiris 8, only rear natural clear appears available for the Osiris 6 and 7, but I have to believe that if you call Kiesel, both would be standard options for those models. It makes no sense for them to be Option 50. 

But yes, I would never order an option 50 from the factory.


----------



## Albake21

You can get SSS on any model, I'm also pretty sure it's not an Opt 50 for it.


----------



## gunshow86de

If they'll make an abomination like this, surely they'll do S-S-S on their new strat model.


----------



## cardinal

Hollowway said:


> Hmm, I’m digging the idea of a 7 string strat. Maybe I can get a pink sparkle version and pretend it’s the Ohmura Snapper sig. I always liked the look of those things.



The Edwards Ohmura sig probably would end up cheaper and easier?



gunshow86de said:


> If they'll make an abomination like this, surely they'll do S-S-S on their new strat model.



I'm likely crazy, but I really like that.


----------



## diagrammatiks

gunshow86de said:


> If they'll make an abomination like this, surely they'll do S-S-S on their new strat model.



naw that configuration is amazing.
headless guitars with junk in the trunk are still dumpster fires.


----------



## spudmunkey

I assume if they built two "demo" models, the 7 would be the one to be HH, and the 6 would be SSS or HSS. Pickup options on models with pickguards has always been limiting for them. For example, it wasn't until the GH3 that you could get HH with a pickguard. Still no HH, HS or HSH on the Bolt.


----------



## atticus1088

New Delos Model 24 fret 6-7 string strats

"Her name is Frost and she is based on my Newest model called Delos - available in 6 and 7 string launching this week at NAMM - Frost will be on display in my booth so come on by and check her out. I will also have 6 other Delos models for you to play and check out.
• Like ICE she weighs 13 pounds and I made her to show you what the inside of a Delos looks like"


----------



## spudmunkey

I think they would do well to offer an edge-of-body output jack option.


----------



## Masoo2

Can anyone here comment on how their Fishman-equipped guitars came wired up?

Is it an option 50 to get a super switch or second push/pull installed for access to the split coil sounds, or is it simply just a normal request that doesn't void the return policy?


----------



## gunshow86de

They already changed the name of the new model? Or was it just a typo yesterday?


----------



## spudmunkey

gunshow86de said:


> They already changed the name of the new model? Or was it just a typo yesterday?



I saw a post from someone I think on FB that there was another company that had a model called Del Mar, K-Line. I suspect there was an "oh shit!" moment, and it was renamed Delos.


----------



## spudmunkey

Masoo2 said:


> Can anyone here comment on how their Fishman-equipped guitars came wired up?
> 
> Is it an option 50 to get a super switch or second push/pull installed for access to the split coil sounds, or is it simply just a normal request that doesn't void the return policy?



When people have asked about "super switch" before on those live Q&A videos, Jeff's said the customer would need to supply their own switch. Same with kill switches (i suppose unless you just want them to use a mini switch that just goes to ground or something). Having Kiesel install non-standard electronic components does void the 10-day trial. I don't know about adding the 2nd push/pull though, or why they don't install it this way to begin with.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

MaxOfMetal said:


> They seem to be Strats only in profile, and the pickguard. Are single coils going to be an option?



Well, what else would it take to be a strat, than looks and profile? Is this like one of those things where 'it's not a tele if it has a humbucker'?

Those comments involving the acrylic were stunning. People are just, they always deliver in the best ways .


----------



## spudmunkey

Lord Voldemort said:


> Those comments involving the acrylic were stunning. People are just, they always deliver in the best ways .



"SO MUCH FOR TONE WOOD!" as if they can tell how it sounds from a single photo.


----------



## spudmunkey

Lord Voldemort said:


> Well, what else would it take to be a strat, than looks and profile? Is this like one of those things where 'it's not a tele if it has a humbucker'?



To me, pickguard and a sort of rounded-off double cut body are really all it would take for me to call something a 'strat'. 24 frets and at least a bridge humbucker for "super strat". I've said their GH3 is a great 24-fret strat option Fender never gave us. Someone on FB responded with a "I have one" and posted a photo of a 24-fret Squire with HH and a soloist-style body with squared-off body edge, fixed bridge and no pickguard.


----------



## cardinal

Lord Voldemort said:


> Well, what else would it take to be a strat, than looks and profile? Is this like one of those things where 'it's not a tele if it has a humbucker'?
> 
> Those comments involving the acrylic were stunning. People are just, they always deliver in the best ways .



With a "Strat", I think a lot of folks are looking for the features that are somewhat unique or strongly associated with the guitar's original form: a neck single coil around the second octave node (which essentially means it can have only 22 frets) and a middle single coil to combine with the other pickups for those "notch" tones. 

I guess it's similar to a Tele needing that bridge single coil to be a true "Tele," since that it it's signature tonal characteristic. 

I use to care deeply about this stuff, but the fact is that in recordings, I often couldn't tell you what is a Les Paul or a Tele or a Strat or an RG unless you have A v. B clips for me to compare after careful listening. In the end, it just seems like you work with your setup as best you can and if you've got the chops, it'll sound awesome. If not...


----------



## gunshow86de

spudmunkey said:


> "SO MUCH FOR TONE WOOD!" as if they can tell how it sounds from a single photo.



Again, they are not meant to be played. Acrylic is not going to be a new option for Kiesels. These guitars are only for showing off the inner workings of the guitar, at NAMM.


----------



## xzacx

Lord Voldemort said:


> Well, what else would it take to be a strat, than looks and profile? Is this like one of those things where 'it's not a tele if it has a humbucker'?





cardinal said:


> With a "Strat", I think a lot of folks are looking for the features that are somewhat unique or strongly associated with the guitar's original form: a neck single coil around the second octave node (which essentially means it can have only 22 frets) and a middle single coil to combine with the other pickups for those "notch" tones.
> 
> I guess it's similar to a Tele needing that bridge single coil to be a true "Tele," since that it it's signature tonal characteristic.
> 
> I use to care deeply about this stuff, but the fact is that in recordings, I often couldn't tell you what is a Les Paul or a Tele or a Strat or an RG unless you have A v. B clips for me to compare after careful listening. In the end, it just seems like you work with your setup as best you can and if you've got the chops, it'll sound awesome. If not...



I think it's fair to say that a Tele with humbuckers is really just a Tele-shaped super Strat, in the sense that if you can aren't tell a LP and Strat apart in a recording, you sure aren't going to be able to tell the different between a Strat-shaped guitar with humbuckers and a Tele-shaped guitar with humbuckers. But when people say "Tele" or "Strat," it's not crazy for people to assume the traditional variants of those guitars. There are enough people that want the three-single/trem Fender style "Strat" that there's a noteworthy distinction between that and the two-hum fixed bridge guitar Kiesel unveiled the model with.


----------



## spudmunkey

gunshow86de said:


> Again, they are not meant to be played. Acrylic is not going to be a new option for Kiesels. These guitars are only for showing off the inner workings of the guitar, at NAMM.


"Yeah, but acrylic is heavy!! Back pain!"


----------



## Lord Voldemort

xzacx said:


> I think it's fair to say that a Tele with humbuckers is really just a Tele-shaped super Strat, in the sense that if you can aren't tell a LP and Strat apart in a recording, you sure aren't going to be able to tell the different between a Strat-shaped guitar with humbuckers and a Tele-shaped guitar with humbuckers. But when people say "Tele" or "Strat," it's not crazy for people to assume the traditional variants of those guitars. There are enough people that want the three-single/trem Fender style "Strat" that there's a noteworthy distinction between that and the two-hum fixed bridge guitar Kiesel unveiled the model with.



I think that debating what defines 'strat' and 'tele' is about is cringe as debating what differentiates '''progressive technical math djent core" from "progressive technical djent fusion core", kind of deal. 

But, Fender has a lot of strats and teles that don't meet the 1950's definition of strats and teles, but maintain the body shape of a strat and a tele. So, I think it's fair to say the only objective criteria to constitute a strat or a tele is the way it looks, really. I mean, a Jim Root strat and a 1961 strat are literally completely different, but they're both called strats by the company that invented strats, so it's inarguably a strat; even if you protest the inventor's company has that final say, objectively. Similarly, the John 5 tele vs a '61 tele, etc. 

Based on that criteria, I really like the looks of that Kiesel 7 string strat!


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Jeez, I just asked about pickups. 

No need to go full "leave Britney alone" on this one.


----------



## xzacx

Lord Voldemort said:


> I think that debating what defines 'strat' and 'tele' is about is cringe as debating what differentiates '''progressive technical math djent core" from "progressive technical djent fusion core", kind of deal.
> 
> But, Fender has a lot of strats and teles that don't meet the 1950's definition of strats and teles, but maintain the body shape of a strat and a tele. So, I think it's fair to say the only objective criteria to constitute a strat or a tele is the way it looks, really. I mean, a Jim Root strat and a 1961 strat are literally completely different, but they're both called strats by the company that invented strats, so it's inarguably a strat; even if you protest the inventor's company has that final say, objectively. Similarly, the John 5 tele vs a '61 tele, etc.
> 
> Based on that criteria, I really like the looks of that Kiesel 7 string strat!



There's an actual thing that a Strat or Tele is though—it's not some abstract description. A Jim Root Strat is a Jim Root Strat. Fender doesn't just call it a "Strat" and let people hope it's the one they wanted. A "Kiesel 7 String Strat" is its own thing, but if someone says they were hoping for an "actual" Strat it's not that complex what they're referring to.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

xzacx said:


> There's an actual thing that a Strat or Tele is though—it's not some abstract description. A Jim Root Strat is a Jim Root Strat. Fender doesn't just call it a "Strat" and let people hope it's the one they wanted. A "Kiesel 7 String Strat" is its own thing, but if someone says they were hoping for an "actual" Strat it's not that complex what they're referring to.



Haha, that's true I guess. 



MaxOfMetal said:


> Jeez, I just asked about pickups.
> 
> No need to go full "leave Britney alone" on this one.



Is...am I, did you think that I was doing that? I'm not like, heated, or upset or anything, I just think that's pretty clearly a strat style guitar and was interested in talking about why with the people in this thread, yourself included.


----------



## Hollowway

cardinal said:


> The Edwards Ohmura sig probably would end up cheaper and easier?


Yeah, I've been on the fence about getting one from Ikebe. They're like $1400. But, I would love it to have an ebony FB. (And in reality, I'll probably never pull the trigger on either!)


----------



## Albake21

From Jeff's instagram: 

Meet the newest Kiesel model called Delos
• Starting at 1049.00
• 6 or 7 String
• Pickup Config HH, SSS or HSS
• 24 Frets (6 optional 22 Frets)
• Hipshot fixed - optional Kiesel Trem and 6 can get optional VSVG 6 point
• Sloped Neck Heel
• Stainless Steel Frets
• Dual Carbon Fiber Rods
• Luminlay Side Dots
• Beryllium Pickups (Lithium’s no charge)
• 14” Radius (optional 10, 12 or 20)
• Maple Neck with Alder Body
• Locking Tuners

The Delos was a ground up new design and was not based on our past model called the Bolt, this will be replacing the Bolt model and is a completely different shape with more comfort and playability features and in my opinion is a better looking Kiesel take on a classic


----------



## spudmunkey

...and $100 higher starting price point compared to the Bolt.

Which makes it official: there are zero sub-$1000 models in their lineup.

Oh...a vintage 6-point trem? That's new for them. Interesting...


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> ...and $100 higher starting price point compared to the Bolt.
> 
> Which makes it official: there are zero sub-$1000 models in their lineup.
> 
> Oh...a vintage 6-point trem? That's new for them. Interesting...
> 
> View attachment 66420
> View attachment 66421
> View attachment 66422
> View attachment 66423


Unlike their other upcharges, I find that $100 to be worth an upgrade over the bolt. Also isn't the 6-point trem just the same one the current bolt and GH24 model uses?


----------



## spudmunkey

Well first, the GH24 is discontinued. 

2nd, the GH24 and the "Vintage" trem is still a 2-point trem, just with a more "vintage" shape (like a standard 2-point Strat trem, or like Carvin/Kiesel's FT6 fixed bridge, where the baseplate is just one flat piece of metal with a bent up-turned back lip).

2nd, the pickguard in theory SHOULD make a guitar cheaper than the Aries, for example, all else being equal...but while assembly is easier, there's the additional cost of the pickguard and screws themselves, so perhaps that's more of a "wash" than it was decades ago.


----------



## spudmunkey

It also does look like they use the same pickguard for both the Hipshot fixed and the "Kiesel" trem. And interestingly, it looks like they are also using the same overall outline for the 6 and 7. The wider 7-string pickups end up closer to the edges of the pickguard, and the wider bridge's notch is closer to the two screws that flank it. A sign of designing with efficiency in mind.

I wonder if any parts of the 22-fret 6-string Delos will be interechangeable with a Stratocaster? The Classic Bolt's neck, body and pickguard were all made to be direct replacements.


----------



## ramses

They are not showing the headstock yet. I guess they have a new design for it too.


----------



## Miek

kiesel keeps moving away from what I liked about carvin. I have no doubt it's better for the survival of the company in the current market but it's definitely just not for me.


----------



## spudmunkey

Miek said:


> kiesel keeps moving away from what I liked about carvin. I have no doubt it's better for the survival of the company in the current market but it's definitely just not for me.



They came out with an updated version of their strat copy with more options than ever, including the same 22 fret 6 string config, that you can still get in all the same old finishes. What's not "for you"? Genuinely curious.


----------



## spudmunkey

ramses said:


> They are not showing the headstock yet. I guess they have a new design for it too.



Interesting thought...f so I suspect a less pointy version of the newer inline, their Dean lookalike.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Albake21 said:


> From Jeff's instagram:
> 
> Meet the newest Kiesel model called Delos
> • Starting at 1049.00
> • 6 or 7 String
> • Pickup Config HH, SSS or HSS
> • 24 Frets (6 optional 22 Frets)
> • Hipshot fixed - optional Kiesel Trem and 6 can get optional VSVG 6 point
> • Sloped Neck Heel
> • Stainless Steel Frets
> • Dual Carbon Fiber Rods
> • Luminlay Side Dots
> • Beryllium Pickups (Lithium’s no charge)
> • 14” Radius (optional 10, 12 or 20)
> • Maple Neck with Alder Body
> • Locking Tuners
> 
> The Delos was a ground up new design and was not based on our past model called the Bolt, this will be replacing the Bolt model and is a completely different shape with more comfort and playability features and in my opinion is a better looking Kiesel take on a classic



Specs look great! 

Thanks for posting that.


----------



## SnowfaLL

Damn I actually kinda want one. I'll hold off for a group run I guess but a 7 string SSS in white with maple fretboard would be killer and cheapish.


----------



## Miek

spudmunkey said:


> They came out with an updated version of their strat copy with more options than ever, including the same 22 fret 6 string config, that you can still get in all the same old finishes. What's not "for you"? Genuinely curious.


that, I like. I don't disapprove or whatever of the kiesel direction in general, it's just not for me. the designs, the product range, etc, just isn't as appealing to me anymore. Is it the company? probably not as much as it's the industry.


----------



## spudmunkey

I guess in my head, that's like being upset at Ford for putting a 4cyl in a Mustang, because it somehow takes something away from the V8 you wanted and can still get.


----------



## Miek

I get what you mean and I'd still spec out a vadef for myself but every new model is less appealing to me than the last and the customer facing aspect of the company has beome very sus


----------



## spudmunkey

Miek said:


> I get what you mean and I'd still spec out a vadef for myself but every new model is less appealing to me than the last and the customer facing aspect of the company has beome very sus



The funny thing is, for a lot of people, the Vadar is the exact model that embodies "modern" kiesel/carvin, in either a positive or negative way.


----------



## Hollowway

A 6 string strat for $1049 - not a killer deal. But a 7 string strat with SSS and trem? That’s pretty reasonable at $1049. I’m actually surprised it wasn’t more expensive. It seems like the base models are getting dangerously close to $2000 these days, so I expected this to be a bit more. But it could be relative. Like, I can routinely be heard saying, “the iPhone XR is only $800!”


----------



## spudmunkey

$1049 is likely just the starting price for the 6 string fixed bridge. I assume $50 more for the 7 string, and $120 for the Hipshot trem. (Theres also the $100 in free options).


----------



## cardinal

Really hope there’s a new headstock that is at least unobjectionable...


----------



## MaxOfMetal

cardinal said:


> Really hope there’s a new headstock that is at least unobjectionable...



I think the standard, rounded inline is just fine.


----------



## cardinal

MaxOfMetal said:


> I think the standard, rounded inline is just fine.



Yeah, if they did that for 7s and 8s, I’d be very very happy.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Hollowway said:


> A 6 string strat for $1049 - not a killer deal. But a 7 string strat with SSS and trem? That’s pretty reasonable at $1049. I’m actually surprised it wasn’t more expensive. It seems like the base models are getting dangerously close to $2000 these days, so I expected this to be a bit more. But it could be relative. Like, I can routinely be heard saying, “the iPhone XR is only $800!”


Hey you might have to order this one first. I know you usually buy mine lol.

I asked Mike about 27 inch scale option on 7. I will let everyone know when I get an answer


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

spudmunkey said:


> $1049 is likely just the starting price for the 6 string fixed bridge. I assume $50 more for the 7 string, and $120 for the Hipshot trem. (Theres also the $100 in free options).



You can walk out with a basic tobacco burst strat 7 string for like 1100 after discounts.


----------



## spudmunkey

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> You can walk out with a basic tobacco burst strat 7 string for like 1100 after discounts.



Be Very careful with their "tobacco burst". It's not like most other companies. Theirs is simply a trans yellow center, with an opaque black paint burst. I know you didn't mean tobaccoburst as anything but an example of a traditional color, but thought it was worth mention. It's a confusing name, like their "searoam green", and "'baked' maple necks".


----------



## cardinal

Man I wish this weren't multiscale:






https://www.kieselguitars.com/guitars-in-stock/131314

Pastel rainbow crackle Crescent 8-string MS.


----------



## cardinal

I dunno how to post pics from Instagram, but Kiesel put up some more Delos pics, including an HSS 7-string with a tremolo. Still think it looks pretty good. You can peek at the headstocks from some of the 6-strings, and they are the normal Kiesel offerings, from what I can see.


----------



## Albake21




----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


>



That purple does look yummy tbh


----------



## Albake21

I'm imagining a Delos right now... Tropical paint with a black pickguard, HSS config, black trem, birdeye fretboard, maple/walnut neck, reverse inline headstock, either 6 or 7 string


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> I'm imagining a Delos right now... Tropical paint with a black pickguard, HSS config, black trem, birdeye fretboard, maple/walnut neck, reverse inline headstock, either 6 or 7 string



Umm what's a delos?


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> Umm what's a delos?


The new strat pictured above...


----------



## KnightBrolaire

MatiasTolkki said:


> Umm what's a delos?


bolt 2.0


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> The new strat pictured above...



Yeah now i see it. I dont see why they discontinued the bolt though if they are just making a new one.


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> Yeah now i see it. I don't see why they discontinued the bolt though if they are just making a new one.


Why have both? You can still get the exact same specs the bolt had. This just allows for a more modern body and allow others to have more options.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> Why have both? You can still get the exact same specs the bolt had. This just allows for a more modern body and allow others to have more options.



My overall point is that why go through all that trouble when you could just use the bolt body. Jeff is REALLY trying to make sure NOTHING is left of the Carvin days.


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> My overall point is that why go through all that trouble when you could just use the bolt body. Jeff is REALLY trying to make sure NOTHING is left of the Carvin days.


Can you blame him? It's a rebrand for a reason. I also want to add that since he's taken over in 2015, their sales have gone through the roof.


----------



## ikarus

Has jeff dissapointed us with the headstock yet?


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> My overall point is that why go through all that trouble when you could just use the bolt body. Jeff is REALLY trying to make sure NOTHING is left of the Carvin days.



Jeff mentioned that the new body has a shape and contouring that they prefer. To be honest, it looks more sculpted than the Bolt. The bolt was pretty "boxy" compared to a "real" strat. This seems to close the gap. i prefer the "swoopiness" of some of the earlier strats, but I liked the outline of the Bolt, so I've been going back and forth.

The other thing that comes to mind is design process. It's possible that the way the Bolt was designed originally 22 years ago wasn't "flexible" enough to be modified easilly to 24 frets and 7-string versions without making them all from scratch anyway. It's like...if you drew something in MS Paint vs Photoshop with layers that you can tweak. if you want to redesign something, you basically have to re-draw at least a significant portion of it. To design the other variants, it might well just have been easier to start from scratch using a method that is more flexible/future proof. The body itself actually looks a lot like the JBPB body, now that I've looked at that again recently...which was different than the Bolt, and different from the JB24, which is different than the GH3, and different from the Aries (even with the bevel delete). It's like saying, "Why would anyone get a K series when the DC is so similar." Well, one could say the same for those who lost their shit when the c66 was replaced by the Bevel Delete Aries. Close, but just different enough to change some people's minds.

I'll note that the entire 2nd paragraph is purely speculation/rationalization.but it's


----------



## spudmunkey

ikarus said:


> Has jeff dissapointed us with the headstock yet?



It depends what you mean. It looks to be the same as current, although I'm not 100% sure we've seen any 7-string headstocks yet. But they've shown the "Aries" inline, and the "Classic Carvin" style inline for the 6-string, forward and reverse.


----------



## ikarus

spudmunkey said:


> It depends what you mean. It looks to be the same as current, although I'm not 100% sure we've seen any 7-string headstocks yet. But they've shown the "Aries" inline, and the "Classic Carvin" style inline for the 6-string, forward and reverse.



If it is the Aries for the sevenstring, then I am dissapointed. Way to pointy. I would have prefered a classic carvin sevenstring version...


----------



## Albake21

The Delos model is now up on Kiesel's site. You can go and configure one now. I made one pretty solid for only $1430 and my wallet is now yelling at me...


----------



## wannabguitarist

How different is the Delos from the bolt? I can't really tell tbh


----------



## CapinCripes

Albake21 said:


> The Delos model is now up on Kiesel's site. You can go and configure one now. I made one pretty solid for only $1430 and my wallet is now yelling at me...


No floyd option on the 6 string? what madness is this?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

CapinCripes said:


> No floyd option on the 6 string? what madness is this?



Kiesel is anti-Floyd now. They're just pushing Hipshot hardware moving forward, minus some signature stuff.


----------



## cardinal

Eh. Works for me with the 7-string stupidly pointed headstock, though I would have preferred the blobbish look of the 6-string standard headstock.

Looks really nice. The SSS with the 24 frets looks squished up, but that's my only complaint (other than I sure which they had done a 22 fret also).


----------



## CapinCripes

MaxOfMetal said:


> Kiesel is anti-Floyd now. They're just pushing Hipshot hardware moving forward, minus some signature stuff.


ehh oh well its not like I can't get a strat with a floyd a million other places anyway.


----------



## spudmunkey

Still curious as to the inspiration for the switch to the Wilkinson-made 6-screw trem vs Kiesel's 2-post current "vintage" style. Perhaps just because their current one doesn't come left-handed? But why not a 2 post?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> Still curious as to the inspiration for the switch to the Wilkinson-made 6-screw trem vs their 2-post current "vintage" style. Perhaps just because their current one doesn't come left-handed?



Maybe to please the vintage trem diehards? I know there are fewer and fewer, but some of the Strat guys I know are pretty hardline about it.


----------



## Albake21

MaxOfMetal said:


> Kiesel is anti-Floyd now. They're just pushing Hipshot hardware moving forward, minus some signature stuff.


They still offer Floyds on all 6 string models. It's just the 7 string ones. Mike told me it was because they weren't selling enough to justify keeping them. It also allows for fewer CNC programs.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Albake21 said:


> They still offer Floyds on all 6 string models. It's just the 7 string ones. Mike told me it was because they weren't selling enough to justify keeping them. It also allows for fewer CNC programs.



My bad, totally read it as 7 and not 6.


----------



## spudmunkey

Albake21 said:


> They still offer Floyds on all 6 string models. It's just the 7 string ones. Mike told me it was because they weren't selling enough to justify keeping them. It also allows for fewer CNC programs.



The Floyd 6-string floyd was removed as an option on the CS, the vanquish and Solo. I believe this is the first all-new model since the Solo was launched that could actually take a Floyd (aka, headless) and it's not available with it. As others have suspected, I too could see the Floyd being filtered out as models are updated.


----------



## Jeff

cardinal said:


> Man I wish this weren't multiscale:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.kieselguitars.com/guitars-in-stock/131314
> 
> Pastel rainbow crackle Crescent 8-string MS.



Dear God my eyes! 



MatiasTolkki said:


> Usual bitching and moaning about Kiesel


----------



## spudmunkey

spudmunkey said:


> The Floyd 6-string floyd was removed as an option on the CS, the vanquish and Solo. I believe this is the first all-new model since the Solo was launched that could actually take a Floyd (aka, headless) and it's not available with it. As others have suspected, I too could see the Floyd being filtered out as models are updated.



To be clear, I meant "(aka, *not* headless)"


----------



## MatiasTolkki

MaxOfMetal said:


> Kiesel is anti-Floyd now. They're just pushing Hipshot hardware moving forward, minus some signature stuff.



we should have a floyd option. i won't touch a guitar without one.


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> we should have a floyd option. i won't touch a guitar without one.



Then we're even. I'm never touching a guitar with one again.


----------



## spudmunkey

Apparently "Ice" has at least a little bit of playability. :


----------



## ramses

The 7-string Delos only has one headstock, the inline pointy (never liked it). The 6-string has multiple headstock options. :-(


----------



## spudmunkey

ramses said:


> The 7-string Delos only has one headstock, the inline pointy (never liked it). The 6-string has multiple headstock options. :-(



Is that just what's on the builder, or what was said in a Video? I saw on FB someone asked about a 6-string 3+3 headstock they didn't see online, and they said they could do it, but was only a call-in for some reason....

...and then there was a random cluster of people thinking that the whole discontinuation of the Bolt and the 3+3 option not being on the builder was because PRS "sent them a letter".


----------



## cardinal

I'm sure the neck for the Delos is identical to the neck used on the Aries and the Solo (it'd be crazy for it not to be), so I'll bet that all the headstocks available for the Aries/Solo are available on the Delos. 

The online builder just seems to have lots of holes and missing options.


----------



## Seabeast2000

spudmunkey said:


> Apparently "Ice" has at least a little bit of playability. :





FMIC slaps hand, "what have I told you about talking to other men"


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

ramses said:


> The 7-string Delos only has one headstock, the inline pointy (never liked it). The 6-string has multiple headstock options. :-(


 Talked to Mike and he said any headstocks are available but they void 10 day trial. ON 7 STRINGS


----------



## ramses

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Talked to Mike and he said any headstocks are available but they void 10 day trial. ON 7 STRINGS


Correct. But I wouldn't want to void that.

I suspect that in a couple of months they will officially add more headstocks.


----------



## cardinal

haha of course a different headstock would make it nonreturnable.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

cardinal said:


> haha of course a different headstock would make it nonreturnable.



Next maybe even online builder options will be non-returnable too.


----------



## gunshow86de

They really need to design a new 7 in-line headstock for these.


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> Next maybe even online builder options will be non-returnable too.



There's at least one:


----------



## cardinal

Yeah, that thin satin finish has been non-returnable since it's introduction, I think. From the looks of it, it'll chip off incredibly easily and won't protect the wood from little bumps and such, so it's understandable that they can't accept returns for it.


----------



## spudmunkey

It is available on the Johnny Hiland model with the 10-day, so its a little weird...


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> There's at least one:
> View attachment 66496



I was being sarcastic, but we know Jeff honestly doesnt want people to return guitars.


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> I was being sarcastic, but we know Jeff honestly doesnt want people to return guitars.



Replace "jeff" with "any business owner"


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

I caved. 

Base Price: $ 1,099.00 
D7 - Kiesel Delos Seven String Bolt-On Neck Guitar
Right Handed
$ 0.00 - H - Hipshot Fixed Bridge 
$ 30.00 - HSS - 2 Single Coil Pickups, Bridge Humbucker (N/A with AC)
$ 100.00 - ML - Lavender Metallic 
$ 0.00 - CS - Satin Matte Finish 
$ 0.00 - -MA - Maple Neck/Alder Body (Standard) 
$ 40.00 - BMNH - Birdseye Maple Natural Clear Headstock (Non-Painted)
$ 0.00 - -7IN - Pointed Straight 7 Inline Headstock (Standard)
$ 40.00 - BMF - Birdseye Maple Fingerboard (Tung-Oiled)
$ 0.00 - NIN - No Top Inlays - Side Dots Only 
$ 0.00 - STJF - Stainless Jumbo Frets .055" H .110" W
$ 0.00 - -R14 - 14in Fretboard Radius (Standard) 
$ 0.00 - -CHR - Chrome Hardware (Standard) 
$ 0.00 - KLB - Kiesel Lithium Passive Bridge Pickup
$ 0.00 - KBN - Kiesel Beryllium Passive Neck Pickup
$ 10.00 - 404 - White Coils w/ Black Bezels 
$ 0.00 - -PPC - Kiesel Lithium/Beryllium Silver Pickup Poles (Standard)
$ 0.00 - BL - Black Logo 
$ 0.00 - -1056 - Elixir Light Gauge .010 - .056 (Standard)
$ 0.00 - KNW - White Plastic Volume/Tone Knobs 
$ 70.00 - SC10 - Black Ultimate Soft Guitar Case 

$1324 with shipping and tax.


----------



## Albake21

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> I caved.
> 
> Base Price: $ 1,099.00
> D7 - Kiesel Delos Seven String Bolt-On Neck Guitar
> Right Handed
> $ 0.00 - H - Hipshot Fixed Bridge
> $ 30.00 - HSS - 2 Single Coil Pickups, Bridge Humbucker (N/A with AC)
> $ 100.00 - ML - Lavender Metallic
> $ 0.00 - CS - Satin Matte Finish
> $ 0.00 - -MA - Maple Neck/Alder Body (Standard)
> $ 40.00 - BMNH - Birdseye Maple Natural Clear Headstock (Non-Painted)
> $ 0.00 - -7IN - Pointed Straight 7 Inline Headstock (Standard)
> $ 40.00 - BMF - Birdseye Maple Fingerboard (Tung-Oiled)
> $ 0.00 - NIN - No Top Inlays - Side Dots Only
> $ 0.00 - STJF - Stainless Jumbo Frets .055" H .110" W
> $ 0.00 - -R14 - 14in Fretboard Radius (Standard)
> $ 0.00 - -CHR - Chrome Hardware (Standard)
> $ 0.00 - KLB - Kiesel Lithium Passive Bridge Pickup
> $ 0.00 - KBN - Kiesel Beryllium Passive Neck Pickup
> $ 10.00 - 404 - White Coils w/ Black Bezels
> $ 0.00 - -PPC - Kiesel Lithium/Beryllium Silver Pickup Poles (Standard)
> $ 0.00 - BL - Black Logo
> $ 0.00 - -1056 - Elixir Light Gauge .010 - .056 (Standard)
> $ 0.00 - KNW - White Plastic Volume/Tone Knobs
> $ 70.00 - SC10 - Black Ultimate Soft Guitar Case
> 
> $1324 with shipping and tax.


I'm really trying not to. If one of my guitars sells though.... oh boy look out wallet.

Also that's going to look killer!


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Albake21 said:


> I'm really trying not to. If one of my guitars sells though.... oh boy look out wallet.
> 
> Also that's going to look killer!



YEah my goal was to make something but classic and fancy without paying Kiesel's stupid wood prices lol


----------



## spudmunkey

Are you going with the plain white pickguard? I have an unnatural attraction to the white pearloid pickguards...

I actually wish they still offered black pearloid, but the last 5-10 years that they did offer that material, it was the kind that was way too silver. I like the looks of having a dark dark pickguard, but the plain black gloss shows EVERY spec o duct, fingerprint and scratch. The pearloid helped hide that.


----------



## Seabeast2000

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> I caved.
> 
> Base Price: $ 1,099.00
> D7 - Kiesel Delos Seven String Bolt-On Neck Guitar
> Right Handed
> $ 0.00 - H - Hipshot Fixed Bridge
> $ 30.00 - HSS - 2 Single Coil Pickups, Bridge Humbucker (N/A with AC)
> $ 100.00 - ML - Lavender Metallic
> $ 0.00 - CS - Satin Matte Finish
> $ 0.00 - -MA - Maple Neck/Alder Body (Standard)
> $ 40.00 - BMNH - Birdseye Maple Natural Clear Headstock (Non-Painted)
> $ 0.00 - -7IN - Pointed Straight 7 Inline Headstock (Standard)
> $ 40.00 - BMF - Birdseye Maple Fingerboard (Tung-Oiled)
> $ 0.00 - NIN - No Top Inlays - Side Dots Only
> $ 0.00 - STJF - Stainless Jumbo Frets .055" H .110" W
> $ 0.00 - -R14 - 14in Fretboard Radius (Standard)
> $ 0.00 - -CHR - Chrome Hardware (Standard)
> $ 0.00 - KLB - Kiesel Lithium Passive Bridge Pickup
> $ 0.00 - KBN - Kiesel Beryllium Passive Neck Pickup
> $ 10.00 - 404 - White Coils w/ Black Bezels
> $ 0.00 - -PPC - Kiesel Lithium/Beryllium Silver Pickup Poles (Standard)
> $ 0.00 - BL - Black Logo
> $ 0.00 - -1056 - Elixir Light Gauge .010 - .056 (Standard)
> $ 0.00 - KNW - White Plastic Volume/Tone Knobs
> $ 70.00 - SC10 - Black Ultimate Soft Guitar Case
> 
> $1324 with shipping and tax.



I like the cut of your jib.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

I don't like white pearloid as much with basic colors. I also went satin with it because satin looks fancier to me.


----------



## Jeff

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Talked to Mike and he said any headstocks are available but they void 10 day trial. ON 7 STRINGS



They would do well to knock it off with this “voids 10 day policy” bullshit, and just offer what they want to offer.


----------



## spudmunkey

That's just something I don't get...they want to offer as many things as they can, but obviously they are still a business and have to be responsible to their own bottom line and their dozens and dozens of employees...so either they do it for the people who really still want it, or they just don't offer it.

Isn't it the equivalent of a steakhouse menu stating that they aren't responsible for "well done" steaks? They'll do it, but it's not their fault if you end up getting a dry steak since it's what you ordered. Isn't it the same as a clothing store saying they won't take back clothing after it's been taylored to your fit/taste?

Keep in mind that I'm considering this as completely separate from any other aspect of non-returnable transactions that we've seen go south where their CS just shits the bed when a non-returnable has legit issues.


----------



## xzacx

spudmunkey said:


> That's just something I don't get...they want to offer as many things as they can, but obviously they are still a business and have to be responsible to their own bottom line and their dozens and dozens of employees...so either they do it for the people who really still want it, or they just don't offer it.
> 
> Isn't it the equivalent of a steakhouse menu stating that they aren't responsible for "well done" steaks? They'll do it, but it's not their fault if you end up getting a dry steak since it's what you ordered. Isn't it the same as a clothing store saying they won't take back clothing after it's been taylored to your fit/taste?
> 
> Keep in mind that I'm considering this as completely separate from any other aspect of non-returnable transactions that we've seen go south where their CS just shits the bed when a non-returnable has legit issues.



I think there are good point here, but I also think they’ve really started making more and more options qualify for making someone non-returnable that are a lot less justified. Like the “raw tone” finish thing. I get that it can be more easily damaged, but if it’s not, why would that be excluded? A gloss finished that was damaged by the user wouldn’t be accepted, so what’s the different? It just comes across as being restrictive for the sole purpose of limiting returns. And all that’s OK—they can just do away with the policy completely if they want. But using it as a selling point—while at the same time limiting it so much that the majority of builds are excluded—feels disingenuous.


----------



## Miek

spudmunkey said:


> It is available on the Johnny Hiland model with the 10-day, so its a little weird...


in that case my best guess is that it's a difference between whats standard on a model(is it standard on the hiland?) and what's opt-in


----------



## Seabeast2000

World's most eligible guitar for sale:


----------



## KnightBrolaire

The906 said:


> World's most eligible guitar for sale:
> 
> View attachment 66511


I'd swear they had that same guitar at namm last year....


----------



## Seabeast2000

KnightBrolaire said:


> I'd swear they had that same guitar at namm last year....



Hmm, well it does have the NAMM show banner along with a bunch of others In Stock.


----------



## diagrammatiks

spudmunkey said:


> That's just something I don't get...they want to offer as many things as they can, but obviously they are still a business and have to be responsible to their own bottom line and their dozens and dozens of employees...so either they do it for the people who really still want it, or they just don't offer it.
> 
> Isn't it the equivalent of a steakhouse menu stating that they aren't responsible for "well done" steaks? They'll do it, but it's not their fault if you end up getting a dry steak since it's what you ordered. Isn't it the same as a clothing store saying they won't take back clothing after it's been taylored to your fit/taste?
> 
> Keep in mind that I'm considering this as completely separate from any other aspect of non-returnable transactions that we've seen go south where their CS just shits the bed when a non-returnable has legit issues.




I think it’s like this right. You are either going to have that policy and stand behind or you aren’t. If you aren’t that’s cool too. 

I don’t recall if my Anderson ever had a return policy but it’s not something that ever came up or that I even considered. 

But that policy is plastered all over kiesels site and there are more and more exceptions with every new thing they put out.


----------



## Velokki

Anyone check out the new NAMM vid?
Two things; firstly is the Lee McKinney 6 string tremolo bridge really weirdly set up (4:40)? 
Second, what's that claim about no other company having a single coil system like his?


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Velokki said:


> Anyone check out the new NAMM vid?
> Two things; firstly is the Lee McKinney 6 string tremolo bridge really weirdly set up (4:40)?
> Second, what's that claim about no other company having a single coil system like his?




Brian May has the most original set up for pickups of anyone in the world. Jeff needs to knock it off because Lee McKinney is not some demigod of guitar building; he's a faux prog putz.


spudmunkey said:


> Replace "jeff" with "any business owner"



Maybe if he spent more time on having great Customer service and not polishing his own turds, that would go a long way?


----------



## cardinal

That they will accept returns at all for these one-off type orders is kinda cool. What is not cool, however, is making it confusing about what is and what is not returnable and fighting customers over it. 

It seems like if you stick with the online builder and avoid the things that it specifically says are nonreturnable, you’ll be ok.


----------



## makecamera

cardinal said:


> That they will accept returns at all for these one-off type orders is kinda cool. What is not cool, however, is making it confusing about what is and what is not returnable and fighting customers over it.
> 
> It seems like if you stick with the online builder and avoid the things that it specifically says are nonreturnable, you’ll be ok.



Although I've only used the online builder, it seems like the consensus on the Kiesel forum is to call in and place your order to ensure you're made aware of all the options and that your final build contains no option 50s.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I've always wondered, how many returns do they really get? 

Any idea @spudmunkey ?

I'd assume anything not actually "bad" would go right to the in-stock section. There never really seems to be tons of return stock in the in-stock pages.


----------



## cardinal

Something I’ve always been curious about: even if your build has nonreturnable options, is there a warranty still applicable?

As in, if you go with a crackle/burl/raw tone/etc., I get that you can’t return it, but Kiesel will still have to fix it if it turns out there is a warped neck/uneven frets/misaligned bridge/etc.?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

cardinal said:


> Something I’ve always been curious about: even if your build has nonreturnable options, is there a warranty still applicable?
> 
> As in, if you go with a crackle/burl/raw tone/etc., I get that you can’t return it, but Kiesel will still have to fix it if it turns out there is a warped neck/uneven frets/misaligned bridge/etc.?



Based on everything I've seen over the last couple years, you have to really hound them to get them to help, even if there is a legitimate issue. 

Granted, it could be that they're fixing tons of guitars and only the ones that fall through the cracks are talked about.


----------



## Jeff

spudmunkey said:


> That's just something I don't get...they want to offer as many things as they can, but obviously they are still a business and have to be responsible to their own bottom line and their dozens and dozens of employees...so either they do it for the people who really still want it, or they just don't offer it.
> 
> Isn't it the equivalent of a steakhouse menu stating that they aren't responsible for "well done" steaks? They'll do it, but it's not their fault if you end up getting a dry steak since it's what you ordered. Isn't it the same as a clothing store saying they won't take back clothing after it's been taylored to your fit/taste?
> 
> Keep in mind that I'm considering this as completely separate from any other aspect of non-returnable transactions that we've seen go south where their CS just shits the bed when a non-returnable has legit issues.



It’s just a bad customer experience when a customer gets a guitar with a seemingly innocuous option (like a headstock or finish) and they otherwise just don’t vibe with the instrument (that they’ve never played) and they’re told “fuck you”. 

My opinion would be VERY different if there was a Kiesel store for people to try the guitars, and then say “yeah I really fucking dig that exact config, but make mine with a Hello Kitty raw tone finish. I’m cool with no return policy because I know I’ll love it”.


----------



## cardinal

MaxOfMetal said:


> Based on everything I've seen over the last couple years, you have to really hound them to get them to help, even if there is a legitimate issue.
> 
> Granted, it could be that they're fixing tons of guitars and only the ones that fall through the cracks are talked about.



Hmm. I could live with not being able to simply return a customized guitar because it sounds too snappy or too warm or it’s half a pound too heavy or whatever other idiosyncratic reason is your fav. 

But I would definitely need to count on it being built right. The 10-day return at least lets you walk away if it turns out something wrong.


----------



## AirForbes1

Yeah, it seems a bit risky. If I were to get a Kiesel, I'd probably want to remove the tone pot (or remove the volume and wire the tone as a volume), but if that means that I'm on the hook if the bridge is misaligned or the neck is messed up, that would suck. 

A question though: Does the hipshot trem have the ability to pull up? In photos (DC600/Aries) it looks like there's a bit of a route underneath the trem. Are you you able to pull up on it while having the trem flat? When I say flat, I mean not slightly angled like on a strat. I don't know if I'm describing that properly.


----------



## Albake21

AirForbes1 said:


> Yeah, it seems a bit risky. If I were to get a Kiesel, I'd probably want to remove the tone pot (or remove the volume and wire the tone as a volume), but if that means that I'm on the hook if the bridge is misaligned or the neck is messed up, that would suck.
> 
> A question though: Does the hipshot trem have the ability to pull up? In photos (DC600/Aries) it looks like there's a bit of a route underneath the trem. Are you you able to pull up on it while having the trem flat? When I say flat, I mean not slightly angled like on a strat. I don't know if I'm describing that properly.


Yeah the Hipshot trem is free floating so you can bend both ways.


----------



## AirForbes1

Albake21 said:


> Yeah the Hipshot trem is free floating so you can bend both ways.



Awesome, thanks.


----------



## strangers

AirForbes1 said:


> Yeah, it seems a bit risky. If I were to get a Kiesel, I'd probably want to remove the tone pot (or remove the volume and wire the tone as a volume), but if that means that I'm on the hook if the bridge is misaligned or the neck is messed up, that would suck.



I have some experience with this. Last year I ordered an option 50'd out K series, and the Floyd Rose was misaligned by about a mm. It wasn't unplayable and I could have had it fixed locally pretty easy.

I called in and was passed on to Albert, who asked for some pictures, then suggested I send it back for repair. They handled it in like an hour, and didn't require me to beg or fight to get things resolved, which is how it should be. I know plenty of people on here, including some long time Kiesel customers have had a different experience, but I have no complaints.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

I called them with a bridge issue, and they immediately offered to pay for it being shipped back and fixed if I'd like. They sent me new saddles instead, also free of charge, and were super cool throughout the phone call. Fortunately the new saddle fixed it right up.

I couldn't imagine after that experience having to hound them for anything, I'd love to hear a recording of these interactions or something.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Lord Voldemort said:


> I called them with a bridge issue, and they immediately offered to pay for it being shipped back and fixed if I'd like. They sent me new saddles instead, also free of charge, and were super cool throughout the phone call. Fortunately the new saddle fixed it right up.
> 
> I couldn't imagine after that experience having to hound them for anything, I'd love to hear a recording of these interactions or something.



sadly california is a 2 party consent state so thatll be REALLY hard to do


----------



## Lord Voldemort

MatiasTolkki said:


> sadly california is a 2 party consent state so thatll be REALLY hard to do



I don't think anyone would actually do that, but goddamn I'd love to hear those conversations. I mean I just had a problem with an option #50 instrument, and they were so goddamn nice about it you'd think they knew I posted passionately on several forums about them. 

Maybe I'll call them and be a giant dick, then call them again and be super fucking nice as an experiment. I'm just joking, I wouldn't do that, but someone should, if only for science.


----------



## Hollowway

Lord Voldemort said:


> I don't think anyone would actually do that, but goddamn I'd love to hear those conversations. I mean I just had a problem with an option #50 instrument, and they were so goddamn nice about it you'd think they knew I posted passionately on several forums about them.
> 
> Maybe I'll call them and be a giant dick, then call them again and be super fucking nice as an experiment. I'm just joking, I wouldn't do that, but someone should, if only for science.



I’ve had two night and day interactions. In one case I had a bad saddle, and they were super cool. In another case, I called about ordering a new guitar, and the sales rep was a total dick, and acted like I was wasting his time. I barely got into the conversation and just decided not to buy one, because I didn’t trust him to even write stuff down. And it wasn’t anything fancy. From the get go it felt like I was interrupting his dinner to sell him solar for his home or something. For me, I’m too scared for getting that Russian roulette thing where I’m left holding the back. So like I always say, I love Kiesels, but I prefer to buy used these days.


----------



## crankyrayhanky

Hollowway said:


> I’ve had two night and day interactions. In one case I had a bad saddle, and they were super cool. In another case, *I called about ordering a new guitar, and the sales rep was a total *dick,* and acted like I was wasting his time.* I barely got into the conversation and just decided not to buy one, because I didn’t trust him to even write stuff down. And it wasn’t anything fancy. From the get go it felt like I was interrupting his dinner to sell him solar for his home or something. For me, I’m too scared for getting that Russian roulette thing where I’m left holding the back. So like I always say, I love Kiesels, but I prefer to buy used these days.



Who was it?
I bought an axe a year ago, it went smooth, but since then my sales guy gets bashed on forums and I wonder if I should try to switch.


----------



## crankyrayhanky

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> I caved.
> 
> Base Price: $ 1,099.00
> D7 - Kiesel Delos Seven String Bolt-On Neck Guitar
> Right Handed
> $ 0.00 - H - Hipshot Fixed Bridge
> $ 30.00 - HSS - 2 Single Coil Pickups, Bridge Humbucker (N/A with AC)
> $ 100.00 - ML - Lavender Metallic
> $ 0.00 - CS - Satin Matte Finish
> $ 0.00 - -MA - Maple Neck/Alder Body (Standard)
> $ 40.00 - BMNH - Birdseye Maple Natural Clear Headstock (Non-Painted)
> $ 0.00 - -7IN - Pointed Straight 7 Inline Headstock (Standard)
> $ 40.00 - BMF - Birdseye Maple Fingerboard (Tung-Oiled)
> $ 0.00 - NIN - No Top Inlays - Side Dots Only
> $ 0.00 - STJF - Stainless Jumbo Frets .055" H .110" W
> $ 0.00 - -R14 - 14in Fretboard Radius (Standard)
> $ 0.00 - -CHR - Chrome Hardware (Standard)
> $ 0.00 - KLB - Kiesel Lithium Passive Bridge Pickup
> $ 0.00 - KBN - Kiesel Beryllium Passive Neck Pickup
> $ 10.00 - 404 - White Coils w/ Black Bezels
> $ 0.00 - -PPC - Kiesel Lithium/Beryllium Silver Pickup Poles (Standard)
> $ 0.00 - BL - Black Logo
> $ 0.00 - -1056 - Elixir Light Gauge .010 - .056 (Standard)
> $ 0.00 - KNW - White Plastic Volume/Tone Knobs
> $ 70.00 - SC10 - Black Ultimate Soft Guitar Case
> 
> $1324 with shipping and tax.


oh yea! I wish I could see a preview. How does Balaguer have an awesome online tool and Kiesel has nothing fro previews? That being said, I built similar spec guitars and Kiesel came out significantly cheaper....+ I know I dig them. I'll order another one soon


----------



## KnightBrolaire

crankyrayhanky said:


> oh yea! I wish I could see a preview. How does Balaguer have an awesome online tool and Kiesel has nothing fro previews? That being said, I built similar spec guitars and Kiesel came out significantly cheaper....+ I know I dig them. I'll order another one soon


I'd love if they had a configurator like that, it'd make speccing builds so much easier instead of just having to use my imagination.


----------



## Hollowway

crankyrayhanky said:


> Who was it?
> I bought an axe a year ago, it went smooth, but since then my sales guy gets bashed on forums and I wonder if I should try to switch.


Mike. I didn't initially say his name because I know he's in charge of a lot of stuff there, and my guess is he sometimes gets burned out or stressed from all the stuff. I mean, it's not like he's like that all the time. But if I were going to do a new build I'd go with Chris, just because he seems like he geeks out about guitars as much as I do. And I had really good luck with Manny in the past, but I don't know if he's still there. Flock is a cool guy, too, but I only talk with him when I go in the show room in SD.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> I've always wondered, how many returns do they really get?
> 
> Any idea @spudmunkey ?
> 
> I'd assume anything not actually "bad" would go right to the in-stock section. There never really seems to be tons of return stock in the in-stock pages.



I don't. From what I've pieced together from posts on the BBS by employees, Jeff's videos, and just watching NGD posts with returns on the BBS over the years, the In-Stocks do seems to be 10% customer returns at most. Most seem to be either built especially for it (and Kiesel employees have come on FB and the bbs to ask for ideas of guitars people would like to see built within a certain set of parameters because they had some gaps in the production schedule), and cancelled orders or mistakes. I remember several times where someone thinks they saw their guitar in a FB photo but one spec was wrong (like a headstock finish or the Jack location on a V220)...but in reality they saw one that was a mistake they caught, and were already rebuilding and just decided to finish it and put it in GIS.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Hollowway said:


> Mike. I didn't initially say his name because I know he's in charge of a lot of stuff there, and my guess is he sometimes gets burned out or stressed from all the stuff. I mean, it's not like he's like that all the time. But if I were going to do a new build I'd go with Chris, just because he seems like he geeks out about guitars as much as I do. And I had really good luck with Manny in the past, but I don't know if he's still there. Flock is a cool guy, too, but I only talk with him when I go in the show room in SD.



He's a good guy. He does get bogged down pretty hard because he handles most of the facebook messenger orders. I've only had one kind of rude interaction with him and i was near last years Winter NAMM. I called after he didn't message me back for a day ro two asking a question.


----------



## Albake21

I can vouch for Mike. He has been absolutely great to me for the past year. He emails me back super quick and answers all my questions perfectly. I also enjoy the fact that Mike, Chris, and Jeff all recognize me when I email or call them. It's definitely a nice treatment to have when buying a product.


----------



## crankyrayhanky

Hollowway said:


> Mike. I didn't initially say his name because I know he's in charge of a lot of stuff there, and my guess is he sometimes gets burned out or stressed from all the stuff. I mean, it's not like he's like that all the time. But if I were going to do a new build I'd go with Chris, just because he seems like he geeks out about guitars as much as I do. And I had really good luck with Manny in the past, but I don't know if he's still there. Flock is a cool guy, too, but I only talk with him when I go in the show room in SD.



Dag. Mike was my guy last year. He was fine, maybe a little short (maybe not?) but got the job done and the build was solid to my specs so that's good. But the stories of him online are not good, whereas everybody loves Chris. I wonder if I call up and ask for Chris if I can make that switch. I get the feeling there's going to be some kind of response like there's no switches, lol. My imagination build is already going downhill!


----------



## crankyrayhanky

On another note, that wild Green & Black artist model and Silver 7 are now listed In Stock. I almost midnight impulsed it last night.


----------



## cardinal

Customer service is hard IMHO. Sometimes you just have an off day. Just yesterday I was out with my kid and the cashier was super gruff, but I smiled and ask how she was doing before ordering, and suddenly she turned it around and was incredibly pleasant. 

It doesn’t always work, but it can be a two-way street.


----------



## AkiraSpectrum

Looks like Joss from Guitar Bros. has parted ways with Kiesel. Kind of surprised he didn't try and at least 'buy' (at a discount) his pink Kiesel when they requested all his guitars back.

He talks about it in this video:


----------



## MaxOfMetal

AkiraSpectrum said:


> Looks like Joss from Guitar Bros. has parted ways with Kiesel. Kind of surprised he didn't try and at least 'buy' (at a discount) his pink Kiesel when they requested all his guitars back.
> 
> He talks about it in this video:




So that's how you get them to take them back.


----------



## Frostbite

MaxOfMetal said:


> So that's how you get them to take them back.


jesus christ


----------



## spudmunkey

That one kind of surprised me, anyway. It just...i don't know, felt like an odd pairing. He's a great player, and I like a lot of his videos...but it just felt like those guitars didn't suit him...from my view from my armchair.


----------



## Jeff

Those SMP guitars are killer, if only because the worksmanship is apparent, and the design choices are clever.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Jeff said:


> Those SMP guitars are killer, if only because the worksmanship is apparent, and the design choices are clever.



These small luthiers are stepping up their game. It's why after i get my brian may red special, I'm going to go through a local luthier for a custom guitar.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

fuckkk that's hawt


----------



## technomancer

Mmmmmm holoflake

The two sparkle fade in-stocks look great too... just not for over $2k with no return policy

View media item 1585View media item 1584


----------



## spudmunkey

I'm glad they went with the black hardware. Chrome could have been cool (which was another limited-run option within this larger headless run), but I'm glad they went with black.


----------



## Mathemagician

MaxOfMetal said:


> So that's how you get them to take them back.



Murdered by words.


----------



## spudmunkey

I mean...he was an artist for 6 months. It seems like a contract that short wouldn't have included several free guitars. From an outside armchair perspective, either the short contract just included loaner guitars, or Joss broke/requested out of the contract, and Kiesel requested the guitars returned....neither of which sounds out-of line.

But again, that's probably just me being rational (to a fault) and trying to think of a logical reason when there may not be one.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

technomancer said:


> Mmmmmm holoflake
> 
> The two sparkle fade in-stocks look great too... just not for over $2k with no return policy
> 
> View media item 1585View media item 1584



Today I found out that Technomancer is actually Jeff Healy. Dude, where have you been?! We've missed you!


----------



## KnightBrolaire

technomancer said:


> Mmmmmm holoflake
> 
> The two sparkle fade in-stocks look great too... just not for over $2k with no return policy
> 
> View media item 1585View media item 1584


The world needs more sparkle fades and less atomic watermelon or bukakke burst finishes


----------



## technomancer

MaxOfMetal said:


> Today I found out that Technomancer is actually Jeff Healy. Dude, where have you been?! We've missed you!



Pffft dude I like sparkle finishes and I like fades 

And it definitely beats bukakke burst poplar burl 

That said if I was going to go for something like that I'd probably order the guitar in plain black to make sure I get along with it and it's not a lemon then ship it to Marty Bell or GMW for a refinish and come out ~$1k ahead (assuming the prices haven't gone up ridiculously since I spec'd one of these out).


----------



## Opion

technomancer said:


> That said if I was going to go for something like that I'd probably order the guitar in plain black to make sure I get along with it and it's not a lemon then ship it to Marty Bell or GMW for a refinish and come out ~$1k ahead (assuming the prices haven't gone up ridiculously since I spec'd one of these out).




That’s...honestly genius. Not a bad idea.

That holoflake finish a few posts above is pretty rad though, damn.


----------



## spudmunkey

I'm not sure if this would make it harder or easier to refinish, but you could get it in all tung oil, too...might save some sanding. Maybe. No idea...just a thought.


----------



## technomancer

spudmunkey said:


> I'm not sure if this would make it harder or easier to refinish, but you could get it in all tung oil, too...might save some sanding. Maybe. No idea...just a thought.



Nope tung oil soaks into the wood and actually makes it harder to refinish. Not to mention I'm sure a tung oil body would be non-returnable


----------



## spudmunkey

Shockingly, even though Raw Tone isn't returnable, all-tung-oil still is.  It dents just as easy, but doesn't shine up, I guess.

In his first live video post NAMM, he showed one of the NAMM guitars that he was selling at a steeper discount than the normal GIS discount. After the one weekend (sure it was right in front ao it was probably played all day every day by all kinds of greasy people), it had already developed shiny spots in the raw tone finish...and it was Jet Black, so no hiding those!


----------



## bracky

Your going to leave wear on the satin finishes after even one play session. It’s just the nature of the beast. Mine is quite shiny now on all contact areas.


----------



## Jeff

Someone should write a python script where you enter your Kiesel specs in, and then it tells you just how non returnable your guitar would be.


----------



## technomancer

bracky said:


> Your going to leave wear on the satin finishes after even one play session. It’s just the nature of the beast. Mine is quite shiny now on all contact areas.



And the reason satin finishes suck is... the greatest marketing coupe the guitar companies and endorsers pulled off recently was getting people to think a satin finish is a feature



Jeff said:


> Someone should write a python script where you enter your Kiesel specs in, and then it tells you just how non returnable your guitar would be.


----------



## narad

Jeff said:


> Someone should write a python script where you enter your Kiesel specs in, and then it tells you just how non returnable your guitar would be.



If you're willing to use a python script, your specs are DEFINITELY not returnable lol


----------



## spudmunkey

AkiraSpectrum said:


> Looks like Joss from Guitar Bros. has parted ways with Kiesel. Kind of surprised he didn't try and at least 'buy' (at a discount) his pink Kiesel when they requested all his guitars back.
> 
> He talks about it in this video:




So, I've gone back and read some of Joss's replies to comments. Lots of people shitting on kiesel for being "greedy" for taking them back because "they were his guitars!". According to Joss's own words in the replies, they had a contract together that included discounts on guitars. Joss bought guitars with said discount. Joss wanted out of the contract early after 6 months because he realized he made a mistake signing an exclusivity deal, and they let him out. They asked for the guitars back, and have him back the money he paid for them.

Is it just me, or does that not sound entirely reasonable?


----------



## AkiraSpectrum

spudmunkey said:


> So, I've gone back and read some of Joss's replies to comments. Lots of people shitting on kiesel for being "greedy" for taking them back because "they were his guitars!". According to Joss's own words in the replies, they had a contract together that included discounts on guitars. Joss bought guitars with said discount. Joss wanted out of the contract early after 6 months because he realized he made a mistake signing an exclusivity deal, and they let him out. They asked for the guitars back, and have him back the money he paid for them.
> 
> Is it just me, or does that not sound entirely reasonable?



Cool, nice to know the details!

To be clear, I wasn't trying to crap on Kiesel or anything, as I hope my original post made clear. I have no experience with them and have no hate towards them or anything.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> So, I've gone back and read some of Joss's replies to comments. Lots of people shitting on kiesel for being "greedy" for taking them back because "they were his guitars!". According to Joss's own words in the replies, they had a contract together that included discounts on guitars. Joss bought guitars with said discount. Joss wanted out of the contract early after 6 months because he realized he made a mistake signing an exclusivity deal, and they let him out. They asked for the guitars back, and have him back the money he paid for them.
> 
> Is it just me, or does that not sound entirely reasonable?



Seems perfectly reasonable.

If anything it makes Joss look bad. How significant were these discounted that he didn't want to just pay the difference and keep guitars he supposedly was fond of?

Nothing looked super spec'd up, so we're talking what, a couple hundred dollars?

Unless Kiesel wouldn't let him pay the difference and just wanted them back, which would be pretty petty on Kiesel's part.


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> So, I've gone back and read some of Joss's replies to comments. Lots of people shitting on kiesel for being "greedy" for taking them back because "they were his guitars!". According to Joss's own words in the replies, they had a contract together that included discounts on guitars. Joss bought guitars with said discount. Joss wanted out of the contract early after 6 months because he realized he made a mistake signing an exclusivity deal, and they let him out. They asked for the guitars back, and have him back the money he paid for them.
> 
> Is it just me, or does that not sound entirely reasonable?


Seems reasonable to me.... He broke the contract early and got his guitars at a discount because of said contract. There's now way Kiesel is just going to let him keep the gear. People need to realize that endorsements are all business when it comes to, well... the business. Joss looks bad in this one to be honest, but at the very least Kiesel got their guitars back, like they should.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

I'm honestly surprised they'd bother endorsing joss in the first place, but then again they gave stevie t an endorsement so I guess it's not weird for them to endorse a youtuber


----------



## Albake21

KnightBrolaire said:


> I'm honestly surprised they'd bother endorsing joss in the first place, but then again they gave stevie t an endorsement so I guess it's not weird for them to endorse a youtuber


But at least Stevie T makes comedy videos where it doesn't matter (most of the time) what gear he uses. Joss on the hand is a gear reviewer, what the hell did they think was going to happen?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Albake21 said:


> But at least Stevie T makes comedy videos where it doesn't matter (most of the time) what gear he uses. Joss on the hand is a gear reviewer, what the hell did they think was going to happen?


I guess the discounts weren't good enough to stick with them


----------



## Jason B

If Joss hadn’t returned the guitars, Jeff just would have made a video in front of an American flag and a cardboard cutout of Holdsworth saying “As some of you may have read, we recently had some guitars STOLEN by a YouTuber. If you want to support Kiesel Guitars Carvin Guitars to try and offset the damage this has caused our family business, right now is the time. No returns.”


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Jason B said:


> If Joss hadn’t returned the guitars, Jeff just would have made a video in front of an American flag and a cardboard cutout of Holdsworth saying “As some of you may have read, we recently had some guitars STOLEN by a YouTuber. If you want to support Kiesel Guitars Carvin Guitars to try and offset the damage this has caused our family business, right now is the time. No returns.”


----------



## lurè

How much thinner is the thinner neck profile option?
Is from baseball bat to wizard type neck or just removes a couple of molecules on the surface ?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

lurè said:


> How much thinner is the thinner neck profile option?
> Is from baseball bat to wizard type neck or just removes a couple of molecules on the surface ?



It's noticeably thinner, but not drastically so. 

Enough so that I'd prefer the option, but not enough that I would go out of my way to avoid one without it. 

But, it's been a number of years since I've tried them, might be different now.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

lurè said:


> How much thinner is the thinner neck profile option?
> Is from baseball bat to wizard type neck or just removes a couple of molecules on the surface ?


iirc it's not a significant difference. I think it's only a few mms, and it's still the same overall shape (ie kind of wizard/d shaped).


----------



## AirForbes1

lurè said:


> How much thinner is the thinner neck profile option?
> Is from baseball bat to wizard type neck or just removes a couple of molecules on the surface ?



I've never played one, but I've been thinking of getting one. It's supposedly .030" thinner, or 0.762mm

Carvin Neck Dimensions (Regular vs. Thinner)

So, slight. But, it echos what Max says above. You'd probably have a preference, but probably not a deal breaker.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

I'm starting to dislike the branding style of Kiesel. 

I've recently gotten a gorgeous Paul Reed Smith EG, in tip top shape with a beautiful top, I'm very excited. It wasn't $15,000, for what it's worth, but now that I have one I'm fanboying super hard over PRS and I'm slightly understanding the appeal of those crazy, master grade PRS's, which I find hilarious. 

But I digress, the point is that I've been youtubing a lot of PRS stuff, and everytime I see Paul talk he's just such a clever and classy guy, eloquent and articlulate and genuine. It doesn't seem like he's trying to convince you of anything, it just seems like he's forwarding hard accrued information about his guitars, and you can see the love in his eyes as he holds one of them, like he himself can't even believe that his craft has been perfected to that degree. 

And then, there's Jeff. 

Am I, is this that woke thing you kids were going on about?


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

Lord Voldemort said:


> I've been youtubing a lot of PRS stuff, and everytime I see Paul talk he's just such a clever and classy guy, eloquent and articlulate and genuine.



Oh lawdy, do we ever see things differently, hahaha. Every Paul interview I've seen was just weird and awkward. He rambles, talks over interviewers, and sometimes sounds a bit condescending. His TED Talk was one of the cringiest ones I've ever seen. 

To be fair, I chalk up his awkwardness to the fact that he's spent time perfecting his craft rather than his people skills. He doesn't need to be a people person, he needs to be a guitar person, haha.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Oh lawdy, do we ever see things differently, hahaha. Every Paul interview I've seen was just weird and awkward. He rambles, talks over interviewers, and sometimes sounds a bit condescending. His TED Talk was one of the cringiest ones I've ever seen.
> 
> To be fair, I chalk up his awkwardness to the fact that he's spent time perfecting his craft rather than his people skills. He doesn't need to be a people person, he needs to be a guitar person, haha.


people are overrated, I'll take being around guitars anyday


----------



## lurè

AirForbes1 said:


> I've never played one, but I've been thinking of getting one. It's supposedly .030" thinner, or 0.762mm
> 
> Carvin Neck Dimensions (Regular vs. Thinner)
> 
> So, slight. But, it echos what Max says above. You'd probably have a preference, but probably not a deal breaker.


I'm used to wizard type necks so I may go for the thinner profile.
19mm to 20mm to me is a normal superstrat neck but at least they're not charging 200dollars for It.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Are we talking about the same Paul reed smith.

He’s a hilariously rambling asshole.

Also a liar sometimes. But funny when he’s lying.


----------



## diagrammatiks

lurè said:


> I'm used to wizard type necks so I may go for the thinner profile.
> 19mm to 20mm to me is a normal superstrat neck but at least they're not charging 200dollars for It.



If you like thinner necks get the thinner. It’s a noticeable difference.


----------



## Jason B

Lord Voldemort said:


> I'm starting to dislike the branding style of Kiesel.
> 
> I've recently gotten a gorgeous Paul Reed Smith EG, in tip top shape with a beautiful top, I'm very excited. It wasn't $15,000, for what it's worth, but now that I have one I'm fanboying super hard over PRS and I'm slightly understanding the appeal of those crazy, master grade PRS's, which I find hilarious.
> 
> But I digress, the point is that I've been youtubing a lot of PRS stuff, and everytime I see Paul talk he's just such a clever and classy guy, eloquent and articlulate and genuine. It doesn't seem like he's trying to convince you of anything, it just seems like he's forwarding hard accrued information about his guitars, and you can see the love in his eyes as he holds one of them, like he himself can't even believe that his craft has been perfected to that degree.
> 
> And then, there's Jeff.
> 
> Am I, is this that woke thing you kids were going on about?



Eh. More like “fickle and fixated on boisterous men to base the value of your toys on.”


----------



## spudmunkey

Lord Voldemort said:


> I'm starting to dislike the branding style of Kiesel.
> 
> I've recently gotten a gorgeous Paul Reed Smith EG, in tip top shape with a beautiful top, I'm very excited. It wasn't $15,000, for what it's worth, but now that I have one I'm fanboying super hard over PRS and I'm slightly understanding the appeal of those crazy, master grade PRS's, which I find hilarious.
> 
> But I digress, the point is that I've been youtubing a lot of PRS stuff, and everytime I see Paul talk he's just such a clever and classy guy, eloquent and articlulate and genuine. It doesn't seem like he's trying to convince you of anything, it just seems like he's forwarding hard accrued information about his guitars, and you can see the love in his eyes as he holds one of them, like he himself can't even believe that his craft has been perfected to that degree.
> 
> And then, there's Jeff.
> 
> Am I, is this that woke thing you kids were going on about?



I haven't seen many live interviews with Paul, and can only go off of the videos I've seen. Those were very scripted narrative, and edited. I'm sure they aren't all like that, but those are the ones that come to mind.

Conversely, Jeff does nearly-weekly live Q&A sessions with the public, plus frequent unplanned live factory walk-throughs. It comes across as, and is supposed to be, a different vibe for a different consumer of video content.

Paul is also a generation older. Jeff's around 40, and Paul's over 60. Not that it necessarily matters, but I'm sure there's *some* slowing down that "brain-to-mouth" highway, and maturity that comes with that, even if someone's a more "immature" 40 year old.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

I just want to have an opinion once where it's like, yeah that went over seamlessly, you know? Just an opinion that everyone's like 'oh yeah, that's a fair and valid opinion, I think most people would agree with it, I've nothing to say to the contrary'.

It's hard being this edgy. I guess you could say I'm on the seams of society, playing Chinese headless guitars and debating people about frivolous guitar semantics with just an absolutely horrible autocorrect that works particularly poorly in this forum, making me look even stupider than the combination of public education and a general lack of focus already do. Seems like Jeff Kiesel and I aren't so different after all.

Anyways, just looking at other guitar spokespeople in general, they all seem considerably LESS scripted and of a salesman than Jeff does, of whom seems like he repeats the same general things over and over again and gets proven wrong a lot. I've only seen a few videos with Paul, though, whereas I've probably dedicated a few hours listening to Jeff speak so I could be mistaken.


----------



## AirForbes1

^ I think that's a fair and valid opinion. I can't speak for everyone else, but I've got nothing to say to the contrary.

Not patronizing. I actually mean it.


----------



## tedtan

AirForbes1 said:


> ^ I think that's a fair and valid opinion. I can't speak for everyone else, but I've got nothing to say to the contrary.
> 
> Not patronizing. I actually mean it.



Beat me to it.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Well this is awkward. I'm not used to this.


----------



## SDMFVan

I've had the privilege of speaking with Paul in person quite a few times, and he is an awkward guy, because he's a nerd (like most of us). He's very passionate about his beliefs in guitar design, which I agree can come off sounding condescending at times, but I also believe he has the resume to back up what he's saying. 

One example: The last time I talked to him was at a PRS employee party I got invited to, and he was telling my friend and I how guitars with generally symmetrical bodies (PRS Santana, Les Paul) sound better than guitars with asymmetrical bodies (Explorer, Firebird). He wasn't presenting this as an opinion, in his mind it's a fact. Initially my reaction was "this is insane", but once he starts explaining how he's tested how soundwaves travel through different bodies and how different frequencies are generated, you start thinking "damn, maybe he's right". For what it's worth I still love the way my Firebird sounds, but he made a convincing argument.


----------



## diagrammatiks

One time Paul was asked about lefty guitars...

And he said that lefty guitars shouldn’t exist. Which sure I agree with. 

But they made a production lefty se that’s around pretty regularly.


----------



## Albake21

SDMFVan said:


> I've had the privilege of speaking with Paul in person quite a few times, and he is an awkward guy, because he's a nerd (like most of us). He's very passionate about his beliefs in guitar design, which I agree can come off sounding condescending at times, but I also believe he has the resume to back up what he's saying.
> 
> One example: The last time I talked to him was at a PRS employee party I got invited to, and he was telling my friend and I how guitars with generally symmetrical bodies (PRS Santana, Les Paul) sound better than guitars with asymmetrical bodies (Explorer, Firebird). He wasn't presenting this as an opinion, in his mind it's a fact. Initially my reaction was "this is insane", but once he starts explaining how he's tested how soundwaves travel through different bodies and how different frequencies are generated, you start thinking "damn, maybe he's right". For what it's worth I still love the way my Firebird sounds, but he made a convincing argument.


This is very accurate to when I got to meet him. He's just a guitar nerd like the rest of us.


----------



## ramses

SDMFVan said:


> Initially my reaction was "this is insane", but once he starts explaining how he's tested how soundwaves travel through different bodies and how different frequencies are generated, you start thinking "damn, maybe he's right".



Also know as "reality distortion field."

Not surprising from a CEO of a successful business (I love both my Artist Package CU 24 and my Hollow II).

EDIT to slightly stay on-topic ... I think I'll have an extra glass of wine this Friday, to order a Kiesel Delos 7 with no remorse.


----------



## spudmunkey

Ooh...now I want a custom dark red metallic Delos or GH3. Chrome hardware, black pickguard, white pickups and knobs. Ebony board.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Albake21 said:


> This is very accurate to when I got to meet him. He's just a guitar nerd like the rest of us.



And that's kind of what I mean. Granted, the videos I've seen him in I'd imagine are especially eloquent, but the guy just seems like a complete guitar freak. Everything he says is deep, and can be explained with multiple layers of organic thought. 

Jeff just seems like a salesman, comparably. 

It's all good though, Kiesel still makes one hell of an instrument. I'd just been defending Jeff for a long time, and getting into PRS has opened my eyes a little to an alternative to Jeff, and I get what a lot of your are saying now.


----------



## crankyrayhanky

Joss should have told them they were non returnable option 50s bro


----------



## spudmunkey

I would definitely say that Paul is a "players'" guitar maker, while Jeff is more of a "gear buyers'" guitar maker. What i mean is, jeff seems to have a very 30,000ft knowledge and personal experience with woods, etc. Like...the way he describes tone, etc, he uses very simple, basic terms. Paul seems like someone that would pull out an oscilloscope. Not that it's a bad thing, and I think it's lucky that Kiesel, even while putting aesthetics over most else, they still crank out a high quality product under that aesthetic veneer (not literally veneer...although their tops have gotten thinner and thinner, so it's only barely not "veneer").

A part of that: we all know Paul plays guitar. Jeff has said he does, but of course nobody has ever seen him. Which is fine...I mean, I've been playing for 30 years, and there's only 2 videos. And Leo Fender famously didn't play guitar. And I don't even know if Mark Kiesel did (Lowell did, or at least lap steel). Paul's perspective and the way he talks about the instruments defintely seems be of a player. Jeff's perspective seems to reflect more of the superficial aspects of guitar building.


----------



## xzacx

Lord Voldemort said:


> And that's kind of what I mean. Granted, the videos I've seen him in I'd imagine are especially eloquent, but the guy just seems like a complete guitar freak. Everything he says is deep, and can be explained with multiple layers of organic thought.
> 
> Jeff just seems like a salesman, comparably.
> 
> It's all good though, Kiesel still makes one hell of an instrument. I'd just been defending Jeff for a long time, and getting into PRS has opened my eyes a little to an alternative to Jeff, and I get what a lot of your are saying now.



Yeah man, you should see what they say on TGP about Paul—he probably gets more hate there than Jeff does here. Personally I find him likable enough. He does have a bit of a crazy old man vibe, but I think he believes at least some of what he's saying, whereas like you said—Jeff just seems like a salesman who would tell you whatever you wanna hear if it meant he could sell you a guitar.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

spudmunkey said:


> I would definitely say that Paul is a "players'" guitar maker, while Jeff is more of a "gear buyers'" guitar maker. What i mean is, jeff seems to have a very 30,000ft knowledge and personal experience with woods, etc. Like...the way he describes tone, etc, he uses very simple, basic terms. Paul seems like someone that would pull out an oscilloscope. Not that it's a bad thing, and I think it's lucky that Kiesel, even while putting aesthetics over most else, they still crank out a high quality product under that aesthetic veneer (not literally veneer...although their tops have gotten thinner and thinner, so it's only barely not "veneer").
> 
> A part of that: we all know Paul plays guitar. Jeff has said he does, but of course nobody has ever seen him. Which is fine...I mean, I've been playing for 30 years, and there's only 2 videos. And Leo Fender famously didn't play guitar. And I don't even know if Mark Kiesel did (Lowell did, or at least lap steel). Paul's perspective and the way he talks about the instruments defintely seems be of a player. Jeff's perspective seems to reflect more of the superficial aspects of guitar building.


I don't know man, jeff has talked in the past about why he likes such aggressive contours, and it's because they're more comfortable when playing, which I wholeheartedly agree with based off previous experience with my vaders/my buddy's aries. Some of the color combos that come out of their shop/jeff's hands are questionable, but they do plenty of things that appeal to players (ie the aforementioned contours/relocating knobs/good upper fret access/better neck heels than on my prs). I know some will argue the neck heel on a PRS doesn't matter, but it does, it kind of gets in the way ime.


----------



## Albake21

KnightBrolaire said:


> I don't know man, jeff has talked in the past about why he likes such aggressive contours, and it's because they're more comfortable when playing, which I wholeheartedly agree with based off previous experience with my vaders/my buddy's aries. Some of the color combos that come out of their shop/jeff's hands are questionable, but they do plenty of things that appeal to players (ie the aforementioned contours/relocating knobs/good upper fret access/better neck heels than on my prs). I know some will argue the neck heel on a PRS doesn't matter, but it does, it kind of gets in the way ime.


One fine detail that Kiesel does that I REALLY wish other companies did. The back plate screws don't go directly into the wood, they go into metal screws/lugs? (sorry can't think of the word) Basically I can take off the back door unlimited times without the screw getting stripped. It's such a nice touch.


----------



## strangers

KnightBrolaire said:


> I don't know man, jeff has talked in the past about why he likes such aggressive contours, and it's because they're more comfortable when playing, which I wholeheartedly agree with based off previous experience with my vaders/my buddy's aries. Some of the color combos that come out of their shop/jeff's hands are questionable, but they do plenty of things that appeal to players (ie the aforementioned contours/relocating knobs/good upper fret access/better neck heels than on my prs). I know some will argue the neck heel on a PRS doesn't matter, but it does, it kind of gets in the way ime.




I definitely agree with this, even compared to the smaller heel on older PRS guitars. My K series is really comfortable, much more so than my custom 24.


----------



## spudmunkey

Albake21 said:


> One fine detail that Kiesel does that I REALLY wish other companies did. The back plate screws don't go directly into the wood, they go into metal screws/lugs? (sorry can't think of the word) Basically I can take off the back door unlimited times without the screw getting stripped. It's such a nice touch.



Agreed. They only do that on the control cavity though, and not the trem cavity (although there is a production efficiency reason for that). 

I think there are some things, though, that just don't have the same engineering behind them...though with that said, they have SOOOOOOOOO much more variety in their product catalog it's hard to compare them.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Albake21 said:


> One fine detail that Kiesel does that I REALLY wish other companies did. The back plate screws don't go directly into the wood, they go into metal screws/lugs? (sorry can't think of the word) Basically I can take off the back door unlimited times without the screw getting stripped. It's such a nice touch.


yeah, they use threaded inserts for the cavity. I wish they'd do it for direct mount pickups/necks as well, it's a really great feature that I'd like to see on more guitars. They basically negate all the headaches that come from repeatedly tinkering with guitars ime (ie stripping screws or the screw holes).
I know mayones does it on some guitars, and my knightros came with threaded inserts for both the control cavity/pickup cavities, but those are very different companies in terms of output/scale.


----------



## laxu

SDMFVan said:


> One example: The last time I talked to him was at a PRS employee party I got invited to, and he was telling my friend and I how guitars with generally symmetrical bodies (PRS Santana, Les Paul) sound better than guitars with asymmetrical bodies (Explorer, Firebird). He wasn't presenting this as an opinion, in his mind it's a fact. Initially my reaction was "this is insane", but once he starts explaining how he's tested how soundwaves travel through different bodies and how different frequencies are generated, you start thinking "damn, maybe he's right". For what it's worth I still love the way my Firebird sounds, but he made a convincing argument.



This description to me sounds like someone who is good at bullshitting and making it seem like it's based on fact. I get that vibe from Paul in general and it's hard to separate if what he states is fact or opinion. He seems like the guy who delivers what he says with such calm confidence that it's easy to believe.

There is precious little actual scientific testing (e.g. big enough sample size, well setup blind tests, ensuring repeatability of tests etc) done in the guitar world in the first place so it's hard to prove it one way or the other beyond anecdotes from various builders and players. Not to mention a lot of things like how an amp feels to play are not something that translates to recording easily.



KnightBrolaire said:


> I don't know man, jeff has talked in the past about why he likes such aggressive contours, and it's because they're more comfortable when playing, which I wholeheartedly agree with based off previous experience with my vaders/my buddy's aries. Some of the color combos that come out of their shop/jeff's hands are questionable, but they do plenty of things that appeal to players (ie the aforementioned contours/relocating knobs/good upper fret access/better neck heels than on my prs). I know some will argue the neck heel on a PRS doesn't matter, but it does, it kind of gets in the way ime.



I think Kiesel does not get enough credit for the functionality of their designs. I feel that the Osiris and Zeus are pretty hideous as aesthetic designs but I'm sure at the same time they are very comfortable to play. When I initially saw the Aries the thoughts in my mind were "Block heel, in this age? And wtf is with that top that doesn't follow the contours of the body?" But as I looked into it more I started to appreciate a lot of things about it, especially seeing the guitar in videos where you don't see it straight from the front. Well, now I have owned an Aries AM7 for a few years and it is one of the most comfortable, best playing and sounding guitars I own.

My beef with Kiesel is that they don't make a multiscale Vader bass. The Vader is by far the best looking headless they make.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

laxu said:


> I think Kiesel does not get enough credit for the functionality of their designs. I feel that the Osiris and Zeus are pretty hideous as aesthetic designs but I'm sure at the same time they are very comfortable to play. When I initially saw the Aries the thoughts in my mind were "Block heel, in this age? And wtf is with that top that doesn't follow the contours of the body?" But as I looked into it more I started to appreciate a lot of things about it, especially seeing the guitar in videos where you don't see it straight from the front. Well, now I have owned an Aries AM7 for a few years and it is one of the most comfortable, best playing and sounding guitars I own.
> 
> My beef with Kiesel is that they don't make a multiscale Vader bass. The Vader is by far the best looking headless they make.


The vader is extremely comfortable. It's a better design than the ormsby goliath or the bodens that I've owned in terms of overall functionality/comfort imo. 
The zeus bass looks good. personally I don't see the appeal of the vanquish, it looks like a guitar that was left too long in the microwave and melted.


----------



## strangers

The Kiesel block heel just doesn't work for me, ugly and still in the way. Which is unfortunate, since they don't seem to be invested in actively developing more set/through guitars.

I wish production companies would figure out a way to adopt a deeper bolt-on design like Dell'isola had. Obviously, he wasn't doing production runs, but it seems like other manufacturers should be able to mimic that. That has more access than I can use, while being bolt-on.

On a side note, I wonder what ever happened to Dell'isola, he was hyped a bunch and then disappeared, not even sure if there was a BRJ style crash around him.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

strangers said:


> The Kiesel block heel just doesn't work for me, ugly and still in the way. Which is unfortunate, since they don't seem to be invested in actively developing more set/through guitars.
> 
> I wish production companies would figure out a way to adopt a deeper bolt-on design like Dell'isola had. Obviously, he wasn't doing production runs, but it seems like other manufacturers should be able to mimic that. That has more access than I can use, while being bolt-on.
> 
> On a side note, I wonder what ever happened to Dell'isola, he was hyped a bunch and then disappeared, not even sure if there was a BRJ style crash around him.


i think he just quit building, it doesn't look like he's been active since 2014.


----------



## laxu

strangers said:


> The Kiesel block heel just doesn't work for me, ugly and still in the way. Which is unfortunate, since they don't seem to be invested in actively developing more set/through guitars.



I on the other hand was surprised that it doesn't get in the way at all. While for example Strandbergs have a more contoured heel, it protrudes quite far up the neck and is more noticeable than the slim but block shaped heel on my Kiesel.

PRS heel seems to be the way it is because they believe that it sounds different if there is less wood in that area. I don't know how true that is.


----------



## stevexc

Hate to derail the conversation, but I'm strongly considering picking up a ZBM5 later on this year. Something like this (still undecided on the colour):


----------



## sezna

stevexc said:


> Hate to derail the conversation, but I'm strongly considering picking up a ZBM5 later on this year. Something like this (still undecided on the colour):



I think the Zeus shape is mega sexy, go for it. Be careful with that non returnable RTF though, is it really worth it?


----------



## stevexc

sezna said:


> I think the Zeus shape is mega sexy, go for it. Be careful with that non returnable RTF though, is it really worth it?


The non-returnable part definitely makes me hesitant, but it looks so damn good...


----------



## sezna

stevexc said:


> The non-returnable part definitely makes me hesitant, but it looks so damn good...


It does indeed, but I don't think it is worth the risk. Just my opinion, though. I've never had any issues with any of the two Kiesels I've ordered, but I'd like to play it safe.


----------



## SDMFVan

laxu said:


> This description to me sounds like someone who is good at bullshitting and making it seem like it's based on fact. I get that vibe from Paul in general and it's hard to separate if what he states is fact or opinion. He seems like the guy who delivers what he says with such calm confidence that it's easy to believe.



I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. A bullshitter he is not. The guy is just on a different level than most. Case in point, he invented a way to utilize soundwaves to make x-ray images clearer using less radiation, which came about from all the work he's done studying soundwaves in instruments: https://www.businesswire.com/news/h.../Guitar-Maker-Paul-Reed-Smith-Team-Scientists


----------



## Lord Voldemort

See, that's the exact opposite impression that I've got. Paul has been obessing over guitars since he was a kid, it's literally his life, so he has all these in depth ideas and crazy theories that are just out there and nuts, but passionate, and he'll happily go into a giant tangent to support whatever the theory is and argue with anyone in huge detail. 

I love that actually, if you're going to charge $2k just to get a guitar made in your core line I'd really hope you are a complete guitar freak like that. He might not be right about everything, but good luck proving him wrong. 

Also, the raw tone finish is great dude, I'd absolutely go for it!


----------



## Hollowway

Now that’s hot. Someone please buy this GIS so it no longer tempts me.


----------



## cardinal

Yeah, the Delos is a really nicely executed 24-fret Stratty thing. I don’t really like the headstock but can get over it.


----------



## makecamera

Hollowway said:


> Now that’s hot. Someone please buy this GIS so it no longer tempts me.



The K at the 12th is an insta-nope.


----------



## Hollowway

makecamera said:


> The K at the 12th is an insta-nope.



No, no, no, hear me out: So, if we start with A in the first space, between the nut and first fret, and we call that the “first note playable on that string,” aka the open string, then B in the second space, corresponding to the first fret, or “second note playable on that string,” and keep going, we get to K, corresponding to the 11th note playable on that string. It’s not for Kiesel, it’s the alphabetization if the inter-fret spacing. It’s really all about the Illuminati and ancient biblical passages. At least that’s what I keep telling myself so I don’t see Jeff’s head in my brain saying, “rad” whenever I play the 12th fret.


----------



## Bdtunn

stevexc said:


> Hate to derail the conversation, but I'm strongly considering picking up a ZBM5 later on this year. Something like this (still undecided on the colour):



My Zeus gas is getting real as well, I’ve spec’d out a few over the last few weeks


----------



## tedtan

Hollowway said:


> No, no, no, hear me out: So, if we start with A in the first space, between the nut and first fret, and we call that the “first note playable on that string,” aka the open string, then B in the second space, corresponding to the first fret, or “second note playable on that string,” and keep going, we get to K, corresponding to the 11th note playable on that string. It’s not for Kiesel, it’s the alphabetization if the inter-fret spacing. It’s really all about the Illuminati and ancient biblical passages. At least that’s what I keep telling myself so I don’t see Jeff’s head in my brain saying, “rad” whenever I play the 12th fret.



You, sir, have a gift of rationalizing guitar purchases.


----------



## Rich5150

Pulled the trigger on a Zeus 7 this weekend, Ive been digging the style and finally said with and ordered it. Nothing super fancy at all didn't want to go to crazy.


----------



## Hollowway

tedtan said:


> You, sir, have a gift of rationalizing guitar purchases.



That’s one way to frame it - though, I see it as a curse. Not even Marie Kondo can save me. Never before has so much joy been sparked by so many guitars.


----------



## Buthter

Placed an Osiris order last week.  Thanks to everyone who helped me make that decision.

-O6X
-Black limba body & neck
-Rear natural clear
-Deep black cherry over flamed maple
-Chambered body
-Thinner neck profile
-Royal ebony fretboard
-Staggered offset dot inlays
-Black pickup poles & hardware


----------



## Jeff

Rich5150 said:


> Pulled the trigger on a Zeus 7 this weekend, Ive been digging the style and finally said with and ordered it. Nothing super fancy at all didn't want to *make it non-returnable*



Fixed.


----------



## spudmunkey

At 3PM, Jeff's showing a new headstock, likely meant to pair well with the Delos since that was the photo used in the instagram post.

...But in that post, he added two hashtags:
#roasted
#roastedneck

And the guitar in the photo looks like it has darkened maple fretboard and neck, but without the tell-tale un-stained fretboard edges that come from getting their "baked" KTB (stained) option.


----------



## bnzboy

Hollowway said:


> No, no, no, hear me out: So, if we start with A in the first space, between the nut and first fret, and we call that the “first note playable on that string,” aka the open string, then B in the second space, corresponding to the first fret, or “second note playable on that string,” and keep going, we get to K, corresponding to the 11th note playable on that string. It’s not for Kiesel, it’s the alphabetization if the inter-fret spacing. It’s really all about the Illuminati and ancient biblical passages. At least that’s what I keep telling myself so I don’t see Jeff’s head in my brain saying, “rad” whenever I play the 12th fret.



OMG mindblown, that's genius!


----------



## SnowfaLL

roasted maple finally.. "REAL" roasted maple. I might have to get another Kiesel dammit lol It'll be awhile, but il get a cheap one someday (solid color, basic specs) probably. Go along with my HH7 and ST300 I guess.

(PS I might take some "blame" for Jeff hating roasted maple.. since I sent him some in 2013 and apparently it wasnt done properly from the guy I ordered from, so my ST300 was done with mahogany in the end.. but glad to see he finally came to his senses and decided to work with it again... I think its superior when done right)


----------



## Albake21

Am I wrong or is the new GT headstock just the really old Carvin headstock?


----------



## spudmunkey

Albake21 said:


> Am I wrong or is the new GT headstock just the really old Carvin headstock?



Depends what you mean by "really old". I don't think it's like any I've seen. it does remind me of another company's headstock, but just can't put my finger on what it is...

edit: he just did a side-by-side. Basically, the tip angles the other way, and is a liiiittle smaller.


----------



## spudmunkey

Roasted maple neck is $100 upgrade (at least for now). With the $100 in free options you can add to any build, you can get a Delos with stainless frets and a roasted maple neck, luminlay side dots, chrome hardware, fixed hipshot bridge, and most of their solid paint colors on an alder body, for the $1049 base price of the model.

Fretboard is $50 (at least for now).

Those costs are an upgrade to be applied to the wood upgrade cost, and can be added to flamed, plain, or birdseye maple.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

wait, so they're actually doing real roasted maple? may just be time for me to order a zeus then


----------



## Seabeast2000

Albake21 said:


> Am I wrong or is the new GT headstock just the really old Carvin headstock?



It does look OG. 


KnightBrolaire said:


> wait, so they're actually doing real roasted maple? may just be time for me to order a zeus then



Medical/industrial oven but THAT's ALL YOU WILL KNOW ABOUT THIS PROCESS.


----------



## ramses

Did he mention if the new headstock will be available for 7's?


----------



## spudmunkey

ramses said:


> Did he mention if the new headstock will be available for 7's?



Yes. 6, 7 guitars, standard and reverse, and 4, 5 and 6 string basses (no word on reverse for basses)


----------



## gunshow86de

ramses said:


> Did he mention if the new headstock will be available for 7's?



Yes, he said for 6 and 7 guitars plus 4,5 and 6 string basses.


----------



## atticus1088

Albake21 said:


> Am I wrong or is the new GT headstock just the really old Carvin headstock?



Here's a comparison (new on left, old on right). He also mentioned the old headstock was going to be discontinued at some point.


----------



## Albake21

atticus1088 said:


> Here's a comparison (new on left, old on right). He also mentioned the old headstock was going to be discontinued at some point.


I love how Jeff is saying how they are completely different. Don't get me wrong, I think it looks better. But to say it's completely different is an overstatement.


----------



## spudmunkey

*shrugs* Everything to the right of the B string tuner is different. Not drastically so, but still: different.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Are those 22-fret Delos models behind him?


----------



## Albake21

MaxOfMetal said:


> Are those 22-fret Delos models behind him?


I think so. You can get the Delos with 22 or 24 frets.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Albake21 said:


> I think so. You can get the Delos with 22 or 24 frets.



Even the 7s?


----------



## sezna

spudmunkey said:


> With the $100 in free options you can add to any build



wait what? how do I do this?


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> Even the 7s?



No, just the 6. Standard is 24 fret, and 22 is the option (similar to the Aries 6).



sezna said:


> wait what? how do I do this?



It's automatic. When you use the online builder, it'll total all of your options, and then it has a seperate line after the subtotal for -$100 (assuming you selected $100 in options). When you call in, it's also automatically applied. It's one of their years and years-long-running specials:






It does expand the options you can add for no extra cost, over just the free solid paints.


----------



## sezna

spudmunkey said:


> No, just the 6. Standard is 24 fret, and 22 is the option (similar to the Aries 6).
> 
> 
> 
> It's automatic. When you use the online builder, it'll total all of your options, and then it has a seperate line after the subtotal for -$100 (assuming you selected $100 in options). When you call in, it's also automatically applied. It's one of their years and years-long-running specials:


Oh. I thought all their models just permanently had $100 off. But what your pic says seems to imply that I should be getting another $100 off for a rebate? Lol @ 50% off all options, that permanent MSRP-twice-the-actual-price marketing BS.


----------



## spudmunkey

Yes, it's also that $100 off.

If you look at any model, there's 3 prices.

Retail or list...i forget which they call it...but it's supposed to be what their (or more accurately, comparable US-made) guitars would cost in a store. Is it really unreasonable to think that a US made neck-through with stainless frets, hipshot bridge, locking tuners, and ebony fingerboard wouldn't be $2k? A PRS Custom 24 is like $3600, no? Kiesel's "list" pricing for the CT624 is $3700 (again with stainless frets and potentially a roasted maple neck in that price.)

Then there's direct, which is their theoretical "normal" price.

Then there's the extra $100 off, which has gone on for quite a few years, and that's the "sale" price.

Then there's also the $100 in free options included in every guitar ($50 on kits, i think).

And finally, there's the at-least-two-decades-long "50% off options" pricing.


----------



## Jeff

Albake21 said:


> I love how Jeff is saying how they are completely different. Don't get me wrong, I think it looks better. But to say it's completely different is an overstatement.



Devil's advocate: there's only so much that can be done with a 6-inline headstock, without it being derivative and/or ugly.


----------



## LordCashew

Hollowway said:


> No, no, no, hear me out: So, if we start with A in the first space, between the nut and first fret, and we call that the “first note playable on that string,” aka the open string, then B in the second space, corresponding to the first fret, or “second note playable on that string,” and keep going, we get to K, corresponding to the 11th note playable on that string. It’s not for Kiesel, it’s the alphabetization if the inter-fret spacing. It’s really all about the Illuminati and ancient biblical passages. At least that’s what I keep telling myself so I don’t see Jeff’s head in my brain saying, “rad” whenever I play the 12th fret.



FYI that corresponds to French tablature, a letter-based notation style invented during the Renaissance era and used for guitars and lutes.

Maybe Jeff Kiesel is secretly a historian and his persona is really an elaborate ruse or some kind of performance art.


----------



## Jason B

The parallels between Jeff and piss artists are there, if you’ve seen enough of his guitars.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Jeff said:


> Devil's advocate: there's only so much that can be done with a 6-inline headstock, without it being derivative and/or ugly.


Accurate.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Jeff said:


> Someone should write a python script where you enter your Kiesel specs in, and then it tells you just how non returnable your guitar would be.



It'd prob be easier to make one that tells you what is returnable. That list is much shorter


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

MaxOfMetal said:


> Seems perfectly reasonable.
> 
> If anything it makes Joss look bad. How significant were these discounted that he didn't want to just pay the difference and keep guitars he supposedly was fond of?
> 
> Nothing looked super spec'd up, so we're talking what, a couple hundred dollars?
> 
> Unless Kiesel wouldn't let him pay the difference and just wanted them back, which would be pretty petty on Kiesel's part.



Artists get 20 percent discounts. Didn't hear it from me


----------



## spudmunkey

KnightBrolaire said:


> Accurate.



Especially if you have additional limiting paremeters, like wanting it inline, still retaining the straight string pull, and don't want it needlessly large for the sake of decoration.


----------



## cardinal

Reminds me of the Agile headstock on the Sentinels and Texans. 

Looks good (at least better). The Delos really turned out well IMHO.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Okay then. They now offer roasted maple necks and boards. I thought the prices would be dumb but they aren't. THEY ARE ACTUALLY ROASTED TOO


----------



## KnightBrolaire

spudmunkey said:


> Especially if you have additional limiting paremeters, like wanting it inline, still retaining the straight string pull, and don't want it needlessly large for the sake of decoration.


oh trust me, I know, I've been doodling headstock designs for my personal builds for the last few years and it's extremely difficult to come up with a functional yet unique looking headstock.


----------



## lurè

Does anyone know how much is the upcharge for a metal flake silver finish ? I can't seem to find it on the online builder


----------



## spudmunkey

Either $400 or $600. They were $600 when they launched, but I think I remember someone saying they were dropping the price to $400... or at least thinking about it. They may still be $600 though.


----------



## lurè

spudmunkey said:


> Either $400 or $600. They were $600 when they launched, but I think I remember someone saying they were dropping the price to $400... or at least thinking about it. They may still be $600 though.



eww, not ready to drop that amount of money considering taxes etc.


----------



## LeviathanKiller

My Kiesel is on its way. 11 days ahead of schedule.


----------



## Jeff

I'm starting to think (or perhaps convince myself) that a lot of the issues with Kiesel were when they were in the process of moving. I'm seeing NGD threads/posts all over the place (TGP, FB, and in-person with friends) and they're all amazing builds. 

All I'd need to do is get over the bro-douchiness of Jeff K., and I can order one.


----------



## LeviathanKiller

Jeff said:


> I'm starting to think (or perhaps convince myself) that a lot of the issues with Kiesel were when they were in the process of moving. I'm seeing NGD threads/posts all over the place (TGP, FB, and in-person with friends) and they're all amazing builds.
> 
> All I'd need to do is get over the bro-douchiness of Jeff K., and I can order one.



It's that last bullet that's the hardest to bite.


----------



## cip 123

Just like to once again register my bewilderment as to some of the build aspects on my Carvin JB200. 

Currently trying to bring it up to the guitar it should be playing like by fitting a new trem and gutting the active electronics. 

1. The floyd nut does not seem to be 14" like the fretboard, it looks like a 10" nut. It more than likely is considering even though I bought this used the floyd has never been shimmed to match a 14" radius.

2. Trying to change out the pickups I've quickly found that the legs on most humbuckers don't actually fit Carvin/Kiesel routes which results in me having to force the pickups in somewhat.

3. moving on the the electronics cavity, I ripped out the active system to go all passive only to find that not only have Carvin/Kiesel routed it so that only mini pots will fit through the pot holes. But that if you do find regular pots that fit through those holes you still won't be able to fit them as they haven't left enough space between the hole and the cavity wall to fit a regular sized pot. 


I love this guitar with all my heart. It is my dream guitar. But it's a fucking mess.

Oh and bonus point #4 for the fact that they have CNC machines yet to this day still haven't routed a program to make trem cavity plates flush.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

cip 123 said:


> Just like to once again register my bewilderment as to some of the build aspects on my Carvin JB200.
> 
> Currently trying to bring it up to the guitar it should be playing like by fitting a new trem and gutting the active electronics.
> 
> 1. The floyd nut does not seem to be 14" like the fretboard, it looks like a 10" nut. It more than likely is considering even though I bought this used the floyd has never been shimmed to match a 14" radius.
> 
> 2. Trying to change out the pickups I've quickly found that the legs on most humbuckers don't actually fit Carvin/Kiesel routes which results in me having to force the pickups in somewhat.
> 
> 3. moving on the the electronics cavity, I ripped out the active system to go all passive only to find that not only have Carvin/Kiesel routed it so that only mini pots will fit through the pot holes. But that if you do find regular pots that fit through those holes you still won't be able to fit them as they haven't left enough space between the hole and the cavity wall to fit a regular sized pot.
> 
> 
> I love this guitar with all my heart. It is my dream guitar. But it's a fucking mess.
> 
> Oh and bonus point #4 for the fact that they have CNC machines yet to this day still haven't routed a program to make trem cavity plates flush.


you could always drill the pot holes a bit bigger


----------



## cip 123

KnightBrolaire said:


> you could always drill the pot holes a bit bigger


I could, don't really want to though. But it doesn't fix the issue of the holes being too close to the cavity walls to let a regular sized pot fit anyway.


----------



## cip 123

SO if anyone could point me in the direction of some 500K solid shaft mini pots, that'd be perfect.


----------



## spudmunkey

cip 123 said:


> Oh and bonus point #4 for the fact that they have CNC machines yet to this day still haven't routed a program to make trem cavity plates flush.



It's not a CNC issue.

There are three things they could do to make the plates flush. The driving force behind why they have the surface mounted plate is trem block clearance. Someone a few years back on the forum got Carvin to put a floyd on the TL60 for him. Those bodies were very slightly thinner than the other models, but it was enough that the trem block would bump into the trem cavity cover. You could see the cover bulge out when you pulled back. 

They could go with a custom, smaller block. In my head, this is the best answer. No idea why they haven't...I assume cost?
They could make the body thicker, so that they could recess the plate. I don't think any more than 1/100 would trade making the body thicker to get a flush trem plate.
Raise the height of the bridge over the surface of the body, so it's not as recessed. Again, I suspect most would prefer the trems to be as low as they can, as long as it still has the same pull back range.


----------



## cip 123

spudmunkey said:


> It's not a CNC issue.
> 
> There are three things they could do to make the plates flush. The driving force behind why they have the surface mounted plate is trem block clearance. Someone a few years back on the forum got Carvin to put a floyd on the TL60 for him. Those bodies were very slightly thinner than the other models, but it was enough that the trem block would bump into the trem cavity cover. You could see the cover bulge out when you pulled back.
> 
> They could go with a custom, smaller block. In my head, this is the best answer. No idea why they haven't...I assume cost?
> They could make the body thicker, so that they could recess the plate. I don't think any more than 1/100 would trade making the body thicker to get a flush trem plate.
> Raise the height of the bridge over the surface of the body, so it's not as recessed. Again, I suspect most would prefer the trems to be as low as they can, as long as it still has the same pull back range.



There is ABSOLUTELY enough body thickness in this JB200 to have flush plate the same thickness as the electronics cavity. 

Even cheaper options to deal with this issue, which imo is just lazy designing.

Thinner backplate cover.

Cut out a hole for the bridge, it wouldn't look out of place if you cut holes for trem spring adjustment anyway.

Or the much cleaner one if they really still can't be assed to figure it out. 

Don't do it. Don't add one. Don't drill holes in the back of the guitar for a plate you can't be bothered to recess.


----------



## spudmunkey

While most of the above solutions come with other compromises (A thinner backplate or one with more holes is more likely to crack, or example...I've done it. I even put a THICKER backplate on a guitar after cracking the one that came on it), they will definitely make you a guitar without a trem plate or holes. 

...for a fee, and no returns.


----------



## cip 123

This company, everything is just so lazy. Slapping no returns on products just so they don't have to deal with things.

Clearly not even testing the cavities in JB200 to see if someone, God forbid, were to take out their active electronics and use regular pots. Or testing to see if they can fit other pickups aside from their own in, which you clearly can't.

Not even putting the correct nut on my JB200.

And while on the subject of trem cavities, why go to the trouble of putting lovely little brass inserts in the electronics cavity so they don't get stripped out after time...but not do the same with the trem cavity when it's going to get screwed or unscrewed an equal or greater amount.

This company!


----------



## spudmunkey

cip 123 said:


> This company, everything is just so lazy. Slapping no returns on products just so they don't have to deal with things.
> 
> Clearly not even testing the cavities in JB200 to see if someone, God forbid, were to take out their active electronics and use regular pots. Or testing to see if they can fit other pickups aside from their own in, which you clearly can't.
> 
> Not even putting the correct nut on my JB200.
> 
> And while on the subject of trem cavities, why go to the trouble of putting lovely little brass inserts in the electronics cavity so they don't get stripped out after time...but not do the same with the trem cavity when it's going to get screwed or unscrewed an equal or greater amount.
> 
> This company!



It's not just the JB200C. They've used those mini pots in their guitars for years (decades?). Note: this isn't a defence. Just adding some info. Your JB200C isn't unique in that way.

As for pickups, they've gotten better over the yers. You say your JB200C has the active electronics...that means it was likely from the Carvin era, right? Carvin Audio made that module, and they haven't offered it for a few years. Since then, on all of their other models, they have enlarged the pickup cavities. Back when they wouldn't install other pickups at all, their routes were sized to tightly fit their pickups. Starting when they released the S22 covered pickups, they started giving larger routes to the pickup cavities. And again when they released their more standard-design "Kiesel" era pickups. And again when they released their new pickups covers, even for the 7-string pickups. Their "lazy" design, was trying to give a tight tolerance for their custom-designed, bespoke, in-house made pickups.

What sucks now is that their pickups routes, made to accomodate more pickups, look stupid (IMO). They are more square, and the gaps around the pickups are bigger. I much much preferred the tighter routes. But google any guitar company and "pickups don't fit" and you'll get results. Many ibanezes are even worse, because the routes for the tabs on the side are even smaller, and sometimes even triangular-shaped.

As for the trem cavity cover's lack of brass inserts, I agree, and there's also an excuse. Not a reason, but an excuse. And not a good one. They said that because the holes are drilled first, then the guitar is finished, then the inserts are driven in, that there's a high chance of the finish cracking around the holes, and if it's not covered by the cover plate, it means more work and more time on their end. Since it's not recessed, any cracks or chips wouldn't have a natural barrier to prevent it from spread out past the cover. Simple solution, though: drill those holes after the guitar is finished.


----------



## cip 123

spudmunkey said:


> As for the trem cavity cover's lack of brass inserts, I agree, and there's also an excuse. Not a reason, but an excuse. And not a good one. They said that because the holes are drilled first, then the guitar is finished, then the inserts are driven in, that there's a high chance of the finish cracking around the holes, and if it's not covered by the cover plate, it means more work and more time on their end. Since it's not recessed, any cracks or chips wouldn't have a natural barrier to prevent it from spread out past the cover. Simple solution, though: drill those holes after the guitar is finished.



I'm not going to touch on the pickup cavaties, it's just such a backwards way of designing especially since this guitar has pickup rings to hide "large cavities". 

That's also a very odd way of thinking because low and behold...my trem holes are all cracked at the finish where the screws go in. Every one of them. Part of the reason I'm so pissed about the cover is that they look God awful. Cracked, air bubbles around every hole. And funnily enough the brass inserts in the control cavity look great. Not a crack around them.


----------



## spudmunkey

cip 123 said:


> I'm not going to touch on the pickup cavaties, it's just such a backwards way of designing especially since this guitar has pickup rings to hide "large cavities".



Ahh, right. Since that specific model is the signature model, they didn't really veer much away from the standard spec. Even for the past few years, they won't do anything other than the blue flame unless it's without the 10-day trial...but my understanding is that it's as much up to the artist as it is to Kiesel. If they were going to _not_ spend the time to upgrade the pickup routes on a model, it would be the model that isn't meant to be customized, and has pickup rings. Hmm...but it can also ship with the SD Perpetual burn pickup, so *some* sort of aftermarket pickups must fit.


----------



## cip 123

spudmunkey said:


> Ahh, right. Since that specific model is the signature model, they didn't really veer much away from the standard spec. Even for the past few years, they won't do anything other than the blue flame unless it's without the 10-day trial...but my understanding is that it's as much up to the artist as it is to Kiesel. If they were going to _not_ spend the time to upgrade the pickup routes on a model, it would be the model that isn't meant to be customized, and has pickup rings. Hmm...but it can also ship with the SD Perpetual burn pickup, so *some* sort of aftermarket pickups must fit.



Mine is before the SD came out I believe, however that doesn't excuse the simple mindedness of not testing a guitar and thinking ahead. "No one will ever want to change pickups/electronics in this thing!" Yes. Yes I would actually. 

I hope to God they have enlarged the routes because the pickup I'm trying to fit actually IS the Perpetual Burn. 

Let's face it Jason isn't exactly able to test these, as much as changes are up to the artist Carvin as a company should put the best product out there, simple design flaws such as these are just silly. Not just for the customer but for Jason who is trusting them to release his legacy guitar. Now I'm sitting here with a guitar I can't wire because finding the correct pots is proving to be a wild goose chase. Oh and once I'm do find them I'll still have to get a new floyd nut to match the fretboard radius.


----------



## wannabguitarist

cip 123 said:


> Mine is before the SD came out I believe, however that doesn't excuse the simple mindedness of not testing a guitar and thinking ahead. "No one will ever want to change pickups/electronics in this thing!" Yes. Yes I would actually.



This is a pretty ridiculous complaint. A product should be designed so it's easily modified? Bruh


----------



## cip 123

wannabguitarist said:


> This is a pretty ridiculous complaint. A product should be designed so it's easily modified? Bruh



Yea cause no one in the history of guitar has wanted to modify their guitar...

It's not exactly a strong ask that you increase your pickup cavities by what, less than 1mm each side? Nah Just Carvin pickups, you can't use anything else.

It's not a strong ask to be able to fit regular sized pots in the control cavity? Nah just our mini pots and preamps, nothing else.

I personally haven't encountered a problem with pickup cavities on any of the Ibanez, Schecter, Schecter custom shop, LTD, Fender, Jericho, PRS, I've owned.

EDIT: I have encountered the frustratingly small Control cavities on Schecters but not the Pickup cavities issue on any other brand


----------



## Albake21

cip 123 said:


> Yea cause no one in the history of guitar has wanted to modify their guitar...
> 
> It's not exactly a strong ask that you increase your pickup cavities by what, less than 1mm each side? Nah Just Carvin pickups, you can't use anything else.
> 
> It's not a strong ask to be able to fit regular sized pots in the control cavity? Nah just our mini pots and preamps, nothing else.
> 
> I personally haven't encountered a problem with pickup cavities on any of the Ibanez, Schecter, Schecter custom shop, LTD, Fender, Jericho, PRS, I've owned.


I've encountered all of these issues frustratingly more with Ibanez and Schecter. To the point of getting rid of them because modifying them was hell. I also want to add that most of these issues have been changed with Kiesel guitars in the past couple years. Not trying to defend Kiesel or any other company, but it is their job to sell you the guitar you ordered, not a guitar for you to buy and then rip it apart. That's on the buyer if they want to do that.


----------



## cip 123

Albake21 said:


> I've encountered all of these issues frustratingly more with Ibanez and Schecter. To the point of getting rid of them because modifying them was hell. I also want to add that most of these issues have been changed with Kiesel guitars in the past couple years. Not trying to defend Kiesel or any other company, but it is their job to sell you the guitar you ordered, not a guitar for you to buy and then rip it apart. That's on the buyer if they want to do that.



I understand I have very specific points that I'm picking on them for, but it's such simple stuff that could've been avoided with some planning. 

I love that these guitars are available and what they do for Jason both financially and socially, covering medical costs and getting his name out there. But again, such simple stuff.


----------



## Drew

wannabguitarist said:


> This is a pretty ridiculous complaint. A product should be designed so it's easily modified? Bruh


Not at all - considering how prevalent aftermarket pickups are and how routine it is for guitarists to swap pickups, and considering even EMG finally bit the bullet and moved to a standard pickup shape and route size compatible with everyone else, I think that's pretty reasonable complaint - a similar analogy I think would be a car company making a car that comes with a non-standard tire size. "But why would you want to use anything other than the tires the car came with?"

Not singling you out specifically, but as a general observation... Considering the whole litany of QC issues we've seen since the Kiesel split and the frequent absolutely nightmarish customer service I've seen when something IS wrong in one of their guitars, I'm a little dumbfounded that people still roll the dice ordering from these guys, much less than anyone's willing to defend them. It's a pity, I wouldn't mind grabbing a reasonably affordable fixed bridge 8 string in something other than basswood, but no way am I buying anything from Kiesel.


----------



## Albake21

Drew said:


> I think that's pretty reasonable complaint - a similar analogy I think would be a car company making a car that comes with a non-standard tire size. "But why would you want to use anything other than the tires the car came with?"


Sorry but that analogy doesn't apply here. Tires deteriorate over time and you _have _to change them. Pickups on the other hand do not. Pickups are picked or designed for that specific guitar. There is a reason Ibanez, Schecter and even Kiesel chose those pickups for that model. If you don't like them, that's on you, not them.

Don't get me wrong. In a perfect world I'd love more guitars to be open to modding, but that's just not the case.


----------



## cip 123

Albake21 said:


> Sorry but that analogy doesn't apply here. Tires deteriorate over time and you _have _to change them. Pickups on the other hand do not. Pickups are picked or designed for that specific guitar. There is a reason Ibanez, Schecter and even Kiesel chose those pickups for that model. If you don't like them, that's on you, not them.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. In a perfect world I'd love more guitars to be open to modding, but that's just not the case.


Pickups do actually deteriorate over time.


----------



## lurè

cip 123 said:


> Pickups do actually deteriorate over time.


You can have a slightly degaussed pickup after 50 years of normal use, but that shouldnt bother 99% of guitar players


----------



## Drew

Albake21 said:


> Sorry but that analogy doesn't apply here. Tires deteriorate over time and you _have _to change them. Pickups on the other hand do not. Pickups are picked or designed for that specific guitar. There is a reason Ibanez, Schecter and even Kiesel chose those pickups for that model. If you don't like them, that's on you, not them.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. In a perfect world I'd love more guitars to be open to modding, but that's just not the case.


I have a dying Blaze bridge in my '91 Universe that says otherwise (it seems to have shorted out internally), but for the sake of discussion let's amend that to "why would you want to use anything other than the same tires that came with the car as replacement tires?"

Also, I thought it was pretty widely understood that most Ibanez stock pickups are junk because everyone just tosses them in favor of their favorite aftermarket set? I mean, I don't think anyone seriously believes that Ibanez legitimately thinks the V7/V8 set is the secret to unlocking tonal bliss in a RG.


----------



## cip 123

lurè said:


> You can have a slightly degaussed pickup after 50 years of normal use, but that shouldnt bother 99% of guitar players


I've heard a lot of older Ibanez Jem/Universe have weaker pickups nowadays. I'm certainly not saying pickups should be replaced every couple of years, just that it does happen. Pickups do encounter problems and need replaced for a variety of reasons. 

There are guys who will break pickups with their sweat.


----------



## wannabguitarist

Drew said:


> Not at all - considering how prevalent aftermarket pickups are and how routine it is for guitarists to swap pickups, and considering even EMG finally bit the bullet and moved to a standard pickup shape and route size compatible with everyone else, I think that's pretty reasonable complaint - a similar analogy I think would be a car company making a car that comes with a non-standard tire size. "But why would you want to use anything other than the tires the car came with?"



I've had to modify pickups to fit them in various Ibanez RGs due to the triangular pickup tabs on some models. I have a hard time saying this is a poor design or that Ibanez is lazy; the guitar functions exactly as it should. It just sucks for people that want to modify the guitar. I'm pretty sure Kiesel routes are now the standard size and the old routes were made for their proprietary pickups. 



Drew said:


> Not singling you out specifically, but as a general observation... Considering the whole litany of QC issues we've seen since the Kiesel split and the frequent absolutely nightmarish customer service I've seen when something IS wrong in one of their guitars, I'm a little dumbfounded that people still roll the dice ordering from these guys, much less than anyone's willing to defend them. It's a pity, I wouldn't mind grabbing a reasonably affordable fixed bridge 8 string in something other than basswood, but no way am I buying anything from Kiesel.



I agree here. I love the guitars I've played, love the idea of buying from a local company, and I've actually had brief positive interactions with Jeff at SCCA events. Still not willing to take the risk on a new instrument because of the customer service issues I've seen on this site. Thankfully the used market is pretty good


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Guitars don't need to be LEGO sets. 

Modding pickup tabs and finding weird pots is guitar modification child's play. 

Sorry, I know it's a bummer when you don't expect that, but it's not like it's going to take special tools of tons of time and money. 

The incorrect nut is absolute bullshit though.


----------



## Drew

wannabguitarist said:


> I've had to modify pickups to fit them in various Ibanez RGs due to the triangular pickup tabs on some models. I have a hard time saying this is a poor design or that Ibanez is lazy; the guitar functions exactly as it should. It just sucks for people that want to modify the guitar. I'm pretty sure Kiesel routes are now the standard size and the old routes were made for their proprietary pickups.


Oh, I'm used to that, I find it an annoyance, but it's not a total deallbreaker. 

But, using a non-standard pickup route size for the _body_ of the pickup, meaning you'd have to re-route the guitar to use anything other than Kiesel pickups, is IMO a design flaw more than an annoyance. If they fixed it subsequently, great, but it's mind-boggling to me that it was ever a non-standard route in the first place.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

cip 123 said:


> I've heard a lot of older Ibanez Jem/Universe have weaker pickups nowadays. I'm certainly not saying pickups should be replaced every couple of years, just that it does happen. Pickups do encounter problems and need replaced for a variety of reasons.
> 
> There are guys who will break pickups with their sweat.


it's more likely stuff like the switches or pots failing (or bad solder joints). pickups are pretty durable unless you mess with the coil wire.


----------



## LeviathanKiller

Got my Kiesel in today. I can't take pics right now that do the top justice really. I got satin finish crimson red over a black limba top. So it's a really dark red but it isn't just solid red. Kinda has a paintbrush effect to it with multiple red tones.

I'm surprised the pickups sound as good as they do. Nevertheless, they will be swapped once my Guitarmory sets arrive.

The neck was thicker than I hoped even though I order the THNN option. It's not bad though at all. It's thinner my Schecter Apocalypse neck so I'm good. It'll be a nice variation among the neck profiles/thicknesses I have already.

Came packaged well too. The case is actually really really nice. The sucker nearly arrived in tune as well. The G string and top 3 (thickest) strings need a very very minuscule adjustment.

No finish or fretwork issues. Maybe the slightest bit of of fret sprout starting but that may go away in a few days. I swear I feel it less than when I did first out of the box even.

I wish their jacks were recessed.

The heel is surprisingly unobtrusive. I'm glad I went with bolt-on. The instrument feels great to play so far. Nice to have something different than my usual set-neck or neck-through configuration.

Overall, I wouldn't say the quality is insane or anything. It's good but it's honestly just like getting a good specimen of a production guitar and it being customized. I wouldn't be happy buying a Kiesel and it having any issues. It would instantly make it not worth it to me.

I'll post pics and more review-ness after I've had it for a while and once I've had time to properly photograph it.


----------



## spudmunkey

I've got trans wind red over ash with the Antique Ash finish, so in some lighting, it's so dark it's almost black, but get some light on it and it lights up what that sort of brush-stroke effect you describe.

Aries? (that's what mine is, too, if so).


----------



## LeviathanKiller

spudmunkey said:


> I've got trans wind red over ash with the Antique Ash finish, so in some lighting, it's so dark it's almost black, but get some light on it and it lights up what that sort of brush-stroke effect you describe.
> 
> Aries? (that's what mine is, too, if so).



Yup, Aries A7H


----------



## Jeff

LeviathanKiller said:


> Got my Kiesel in today. I can't take pics right now that do the top justice really. I got satin finish crimson red over a black limba top. So it's a really dark red but it isn't just solid red. Kinda has a paintbrush effect to it with multiple red tones.
> 
> I'm surprised the pickups sound as good as they do. Nevertheless, they will be swapped once my Guitarmory sets arrive.
> 
> The neck was thicker than I hoped even though I order the THNN option. It's not bad though at all. It's thinner my Schecter Apocalypse neck so I'm good. It'll be a nice variation among the neck profiles/thicknesses I have already.
> 
> Came packaged well too. The case is actually really really nice. The sucker nearly arrived in tune as well. The G string and top 3 (thickest) strings need a very very minuscule adjustment.
> 
> No finish or fretwork issues. Maybe the slightest bit of of fret sprout starting but that may go away in a few days. I swear I feel it less than when I did first out of the box even.
> 
> I wish their jacks were recessed.
> 
> The heel is surprisingly unobtrusive. I'm glad I went with bolt-on. The instrument feels great to play so far. Nice to have something different than my usual set-neck or neck-through configuration.
> 
> Overall, I wouldn't say the quality is insane or anything. It's good but it's honestly just like getting a good specimen of a production guitar and it being customized. I wouldn't be happy buying a Kiesel and it having any issues. It would instantly make it not worth it to me.
> 
> I'll post pics and more review-ness after I've had it for a while and once I've had time to properly photograph it.



How would you compare it to your plethora of Schecters?


----------



## LeviathanKiller

Jeff said:


> How would you compare it to your plethora of Schecters?



Same level of quality (if not better than) as my KM-7s which I absolutely love. So far I haven't noticed anything really that I can say yeah, Kiesel definitely did that better than on this KM-7.

As of right now, the satin neck kinda reminds me of the MK-IIIs I had. Fit and finish is excellent. My non-KM Schecters might have a spec or something in the binding or a texture on the nut where glue was sanded off. The KMs might even have the sanded nuts actually. The Kiesel is perfect though so far.

I had to get the bevel deleted in order to keep a consistent top appearance but if I had gone with a black limba body, definitely would have gotten the bevel. That part isn't as comfortable as my Schecter KMs or SLSs. Pretty on par with the harder edge of my Hellraiser Hybrid PT and Apocalypse.


----------



## Jeff

LeviathanKiller said:


> Same level of quality (if not better than) as my KM-7s which I absolutely love. So far I haven't noticed anything really that I can say yeah, Kiesel definitely did that better than on this KM-7.
> 
> As of right now, the satin neck kinda reminds me of the MK-IIIs I had. Fit and finish is excellent. My non-KM Schecters might have a spec or something in the binding or a texture on the nut where glue was sanded off. The KMs might even have the sanded nuts actually. The Kiesel is perfect though so far.
> 
> I had to get the bevel deleted in order to keep a consistent top appearance but if I had gone with a black limba body, definitely would have gotten the bevel. That part isn't as comfortable as my Schecter KMs or SLSs. Pretty on par with the harder edge of my Hellraiser Hybrid PT and Apocalypse.



The reason I ask is because I was also looking at the Schecter SLS C-1 with the snazzy amber fade, and Fishmans. Good feedback, thanks!


----------



## crankyrayhanky

spudmunkey said:


> I've got trans wind red over ash with the Antique Ash finish, so in some lighting, it's so dark it's almost black, but get some light on it and it lights up what that sort of brush-stroke effect you describe.
> 
> Aries? (that's what mine is, too, if so).


Pic please


----------



## spudmunkey

crankyrayhanky said:


> Pic please



First NGD photo, on its back, facing an overcast sky under a tree. It's even darker in person than it appears is photos:






Here's a pic in a brightly lit (albeit warm color temperature/poor CRI light) room, It's quite dark:





Here it is in another part of the same room, with a bit more natural sunlight:





Here it is bathed in studio lighting:









And just because, here's my "unboxing"


----------



## spudmunkey

Apparently they just came out with a new bass, shaped like their "Solo" t-type body shape.

I've never played one, but I can't imagine a tele-shaped 34" scale bass would balance well at all...


----------



## crankyrayhanky

spudmunkey said:


> First NGD photo, on its back, facing an overcast sky under a tree. It's even darker in person than it appears is photos:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a pic in a brightly lit (albeit warm color temperature/poor CRI light) room, It's quite dark:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here it is in another part of the same room, with a bit more natural sunlight:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here it is bathed in studio lighting:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And just because, here's my "unboxing"




I like that red!
Also, I think that video invokes a custom 50 no return lol


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> Apparently they just came out with a new bass, shaped like their "Solo" t-type body shape.
> 
> I've never played one, but I can't imagine a tele-shaped 34" scale bass would balance well at all...



The G&L ASAT basses balance fairly well, but a 5 or 6 string might not.


----------



## tylerpond05

LeviathanKiller said:


> I wish their jacks were recessed.


Some of their models have a recessed jack, but not all.


----------



## spudmunkey

tylerpond05 said:


> Some of their models have a recessed jack, but not all.



None of their models have recessed jacks. Some have a plateless style barrel jack (basically, models where the side of the body isn't flat/broad enough for their standard plate, so models that have rounded body sides (Icon bass, DC127 with rounded body sides option) or have a bevel that runs around the perimiter (K series or Vanquish), or the body is just too thin (Chris Letchford model)), but it's not recessed.


----------



## LeviathanKiller

Even flushmount would have been nice, but I feel like the protruding ones are just tacky looking


----------



## spudmunkey

LeviathanKiller said:


> Even flushmount would have been nice, but I feel like the protruding ones are just tacky looking



I'm of two minds. It looks a bit "much", but on the other hand...I beat the hell out of the paint job of a guitar that didn't have a plate. It was all dented and scratched around it. The plate holds up much better...but I suppose to some it's a bit like those carpet dashboard covers. While it might protect, it looks dumb.


----------



## Albake21

The only good part about their current jacks is the ease of working on it. Plus I like seeing the serial number on it. Personally the way the jack is installed is the least of my worries on a guitar. No doubt a recessed looks cleaner (and what I'm doing on my current build) but I don't really care either way.


----------



## spudmunkey

spudmunkey said:


> I've never played one, but I can't imagine a tele-shaped 34" scale bass would balance well at all...





MaxOfMetal said:


> The G&L ASAT basses balance fairly well, but a 5 or 6 string might not.



So the Solo bass is only made as a 20-fret. This is so that the body isn't either squished down, or doesn't have a super deep awkward-looking-cutaway. So the body is larger than it might otherwise be, while still seeming proportionately-shaped (compared to many other single cut basses).


----------



## Seabeast2000

I'm afraid your Kiesel box is now Option 50'd. 

HNGD!


----------



## spudmunkey

The906 said:


> I'm afraid your Kiesel box is now Option 50'd.
> 
> HNGD!



"Relic'ed"  My NGD was 3 years ago. just took the opportunity to answer the request for pics.


----------



## Jeff

So a buddy brought his new Kiesel Zeus 7-string in this weekend. The build quality is pretty much flawless; I looked it over, and it's awesome. Low action, no buzz, Lithium pickups sound great. The headless aspect didn't throw me at all, compared to how lost I was on a seven string these days


----------



## TheAegisInitiative

Received my first Vader V6X build a week ago. Build quality was essentially flawless. Some of the cleanest wiring I’ve seen. Fretwork was excellent. Overall just a high quality instrument and sounded a lot meaner and fuller than I was expecting for such a tiny, chambered swamp ash bodied guitar. I still ended up selling it though. The body was so small I could just never get comfortable with it.


----------



## Jeff

TheAegisInitiative said:


> Received my first Vader V6X build a week ago. Build quality was essentially flawless. Some of the cleanest wiring I’ve seen. Fretwork was excellent. Overall just a high quality instrument and sounded a lot meaner and fuller than I was expecting for such a tiny, chambered swamp ash bodied guitar. I still ended up selling it though. The body was so small I could just never get comfortable with it.



Well that was quick! That's a shame you didn't gel with it, because it's a great looking guitar.


----------



## jeb

So!! I ordered an Aries on black Friday. I asked for the lightest guitar possible to help with my arthrosis problems.
I play in a Celtic Punk/rock band and we are on tour during March.... The Leprechaun did is magic!! I got the guitar on the Saint-Patrick's day directly at the venue!!

I got 5.8 lbs of pure joy!! This is my second Kiesel, the first is a TL60. As the first this one is flawless!

I can understand all the rants about Kiesel, but as a lefty player, I can't find any other company that gives the same options for the right handed players and lefty players at this price point!

Chris Hong at Kiesel is the man!! It's just great and easy to deal with this guy!








Sláinte 
Jeb


----------



## cip 123

Geez, they can't even build a guitar the right way round.


----------



## TheAegisInitiative

That’s a really tastefully spec’d Aries. I think they’re really good looking guitars without the wacky top woods and simpler finishes.


----------



## spudmunkey

Is that something like Trans Yellow on AAT in...raw tone satin?


----------



## jeb

cip 123 said:


> Geez, they can't even build a guitar the right way round.


I know right!!!


----------



## jeb

spudmunkey said:


> Is that something like Trans Yellow on AAT in...raw tone satin?


This is the raw tone wiskey brown finish.
I'm really happy how it turned out!

Jeb


----------



## Jeff

jeb said:


> So!! I ordered an Aries on black Friday. I asked for the lightest guitar possible to help with my arthrosis problems.
> I play in a Celtic Punk/rock band and we are on tour during March.... The Leprechaun did is magic!! I got the guitar on the Saint-Patrick's day directly at the venue!!
> 
> I got 5.8 lbs of pure joy!! This is my second Kiesel, the first is a TL60. As the first this one is flawless!
> 
> I can understand all the rants about Kiesel, but as a lefty player, I can't find any other company that gives the same options for the right handed players and lefty players at this price point!
> 
> Chris Hong at Kiesel is the man!! It's just great and easy to deal with this guy!
> 
> View attachment 67874
> 
> View attachment 67877
> 
> View attachment 67878
> 
> 
> Sláinte
> Jeb



That's stunning. It really is! Honestly, especially after playing several Kiesels now, I'm convinced that A. the Kiesel troubles were tied to the break-up and their move, and B. Jeff Kiesel is still pretty douchey, but if you can get past that, you get a great guitar for a decent buck.


----------



## Seabeast2000

I don't remember if I asked yet here....but anyway..
Anyone replace a Carvin FT6 bridge with anything from Hipshot?


----------



## spudmunkey

The mounting holes are in completely different locations...but do you have a specific question?

The few times I played a Carvin with the FT6, it seemed fine. No better or worse than my hipshot, other than it looks a little cheaper. Both are string-through and function identically.


----------



## Seabeast2000

spudmunkey said:


> The mounting holes are in completely different locations...but do you have a specific question?
> 
> The few times I played a Carvin with the FT6, it seemed fine. No better or worse than my hipshot, other than it looks a little cheaper. Both are string-through and function identically.



More or less, just wanted to see what options exist if not a direct match for holes, then something bigger like the High Mass perhaps that would cover up the old holes. thanks! I never dug the silver saddles w/ otherwise black hardware on the FT6 but I guess could just upgrade saddles with someone else's saddles....


----------



## spudmunkey

Ahh, gotcha. Yeah, at some point years ago they switched from having coordinating-color-plated saddles to the all gunmetal-y colored ones for all finishes. Looked quite goofy with the gold...although the String Saver Saddles also looked a bit like that...and the piezo saddles...

The string spacing on the "Ibby HM" bridge is slightly wider than even Hipshot's own fixed bridge that looks like the FT6. I don't remember what the FT6 spacing measurements are, though...but another measurement beyond physical size to keep in mind.


----------



## spudmunkey

Apparently they seem to be diving head-first into roasting woods. In today's group of facebook pics from the factory, they included a Zeus with a roasted ash body, and in yesterday's "pick your top tuesday" live video (also on facebook) they had a CT6 body with a roasted slamed maple carved top, and also at least one one other bookmatched flamed maple top. They did specifically say they they would not be available on models with a bent forearm contour (so no DC6700 or Delos, for example, but could work on a SCB, beveled Aries, Vanquish, or a Solo (if you got binding, which gives up the forearm contour)).


----------



## spudmunkey

Kiesel is doing a run for their newish Delos model.

For $1095 starting ($1000 base price (which is $49 lower than the normal base price for this model) + case + shipping in the US) for the lowest-price tier (Stage 1), they are throwing in roasted maple neck and fretboard, and if you get the raw tone satin finish, an ash body upgrade. As normal, all builds have stainless frets, luminlay side dots, and for this run, all guitars will have no truss rod cover.

They are also offering a few new pickguard materials for the run, but not all colors are available for all "stages". Mint, Vintage White, and Black Pearloid.

For the stage 1, which is obviously the best value, there are a few no-upcharge choices available in this run:

Fret Count on 6 string: 24 / 22
Stainless Frets: Med-Jumbo / Jumbo / Regular Vintage
Inlay Shape: Centered Dots / No Inlays
Inlay Material: Acrylic Black / Mother Of Pearl
Fretboard Radius: 10 / 12 / 14 / 20 
Graphtech Nut: Black / White TUSQ 
Headstock Shape: GT / GTR
Logo: White / Black 
Pickguard: White / Black / Mint / Vintage White 
Pickups: Beryllium / Lithium / Thorium 
Pickup Configuration: HH / SSS / HSS
Pickup Color: Black / White / Cream
Knobs: Black Plastic / White Plastic
Body: Swamp Ash with RTF / Alder with Gloss 
Finish: Black / White / Surf Green / Light Blue / Light Pink / Clear
Top coat: RTF (Swamp Ash Body) / Gloss (Alder Body)

Other options available for this lowest-priced tier (many are discounted):
Neck Profile Options: +$30 Thinner (THNN) / Thicker (THKN)
Left Handed $0.00
Bridge Type: Kiesel Trem +$100 / Gohto 510 Trem 6 string only +$100
7 string +$50
Finish Options:
Antique Ash Treatment +$100 (RTF Only)
Select Whiskey Brown +$200 (RTF Only)
Metal Flake / Sparkle finish +$300: Aqua, Blue, Purple, Green, Red, Pink, Silver


i won't bother posting the specs for the other two stages ($1500 and $2500 base prices), but that info is all available in the Facebook Group for the Delos Run. but, I thought I'd share this one because $1095 for a US-made "strat" with stainless frets, roasted maple neck and fretboard, for $1095, or $1195 with a Hipshot or Gotoh trem is really a rocking deal, i think, compared to Suhr or even most off-the-rack Fender US Strats.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Did they switch to the 1996E or something? What do you mean gotoh trem? Wilkie?


----------



## spudmunkey

No. For this model only, they are also offering the Gotoh 510 (the one that just looks like a 2-point Strat bridge). When the model was launched, they assumed traditionalists would want a bridge as close to a Strat as they could get, so they were originally going to offer a 6-screw trem. After NAMM, he got enough feed back that there wouldn't really be that much demand for that, and that people would likely prefer this bridge (seemingly the #1 bridge that people "upgrade" to on their strats), so it's what they decided to go with.

From what i understand, if you get the 24-fret model, it's full-floating, but if you get the 22-fret, like a Strat, it's decked (dive only), like a Strat. I remember hearing that, but sometimes things change, and I haven't heard anyone else confirm it, so i could be on crack with that part...but I'm at least 77% sure I'm right.


----------



## Hollowway

This is the first run I've been tempted by in a long time. I'm considering a 7 trem pink sparkle. The discount on the pink sparkle is really the only thing that makes me want to jump in. But, I could get the transparent pearl pink on a non-run delos, and I like that color, too, so I can't make up my mind. As usual. 

@spudmunkey off the top of your mind, do you know if the TPP color is the same price as the other transparent colors? It's not on the builder, so I don't know if it's an upcharge, or what.


----------



## spudmunkey

Transparent pearl pink, in addition to the blue and green, were technically discontinued in July of 2018. I can't tell you if they still have it or if they still will do it, or if any of their trans pinks are just a pearl-less version of the same color.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> Transparent pearl pink, in addition to the blue and green, were technically discontinued in July of 2018. I can't tell you if they still have it or if they still will do it, or if any of their trans pinks are just a pearl-less version of the same color.



Ah, ok, thanks. I love the TPP, but can't stand the "light pink" color. I like my pinks like I like my Van Halen - 100% '80s!


----------



## spudmunkey

I know there's a "highlighter pink" but i don't know if it's an opaque or transparent pink. A there's one is called "Transparent Flamingo Pink"..and I have no idea how either of those differ IRL from Transparent Hot Pink...

Transparent Flamingo Pink:






Supposedly this is Transparent Flamingo Pink without AAT:





Trans hot pink, which *seems* more purple-y





Then there's the non-transparent Hot Pink:




And this is supposed to be the same non-transparent Hot Pink...but it looks like a different color.





Same...


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Spud, highlighter pink is their solid hot pink color.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Hollowway said:


> Ah, ok, thanks. I love the TPP, but can't stand the "light pink" color. I like my pinks like I like my Van Halen - 100% '80s!



Time to buy an Ibanez Jem 777 in Shocking Pink


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> I know there's a "highlighter pink" but i don't know if it's an opaque or transparent pink. A there's one is called "Transparent Flamingo Pink"..and I have no idea how either of those differ IRL from Transparent Hot Pink...
> 
> Transparent Flamingo Pink:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Supposedly this is Transparent Flamingo Pink without AAT:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trans hot pink, which *seems* more purple-y
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then there's the non-transparent Hot Pink:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this is supposed to be the same non-transparent Hot Pink...but it looks like a different color.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same...


I love all of those. And despite having seen them here and there, I know they're all non-standard colors. Which seems odd, but maybe they're just not popular enough.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Hollowway said:


> I love all of those. And despite having seen them here and there, I know they're all non-standard colors. Which seems odd, but maybe they're just not popular enough.



if chris had his way, they'd only offer pink


----------



## spudmunkey

Apparently the Delos run will include an option for "bridge pickup only". which eliminates the neck pickup and the 5-way. $100 apparently.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> I love all of those. And despite having seen them here and there, I know they're all non-standard colors. Which seems odd, but maybe they're just not popular enough.



New finish option, "Raspberry Jam" just added as an option to the Stage 1 menu ($200), in gloss or raw tone satin.


----------



## Albake21

That's over AAT though, right? I'd like to see it over just normal ash or as a solid color


----------



## spudmunkey

I believe so, that's why its $200...pretty sure, anyway.


----------



## Jonathan20022

spudmunkey said:


> I know there's a "highlighter pink" but i don't know if it's an opaque or transparent pink. A there's one is called "Transparent Flamingo Pink"..and I have no idea how either of those differ IRL from Transparent Hot Pink...
> 
> Transparent Flamingo Pink:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Supposedly this is Transparent Flamingo Pink without AAT:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trans hot pink, which *seems* more purple-y
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then there's the non-transparent Hot Pink:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this is supposed to be the same non-transparent Hot Pink...but it looks like a different color.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same...



One thing that's a pretty good indicator of the shots being generally inconsistent is the background and general white balance of the images. These all vary quite a bit, so I wouldn't take that as a 100% indicator of their final color in person.


----------



## spudmunkey

3PB (3-piece body) option, that's the thin black layer between the top and the body wood, is now a no-charge option on Stage 3, $100 on stage 2.


----------



## cip 123

spudmunkey said:


> Apparently the Delos run will include an option for "bridge pickup only". which eliminates the neck pickup and the 5-way. $100 apparently.


Wait....It's $100 to have less pickups?


----------



## Albake21

cip 123 said:


> Wait....It's $100 to have less pickups?


Welcome to the world of Kiesel pricing. There's a lot of it that makes no sense. Most of their option 50s make no sense. If I wanted to remove the tone pot, it costs $50.


----------



## spudmunkey

cip 123 said:


> Wait....It's $100 to have less pickups?



The rationalization is that it's not worth their efforts to program each new configuration, so they need someone to sort of run parts of the program manually start/stop, etc, which slows down their efficiency enough that they have to charge for it. 

I'm sure it's more just about putting in a gate/barrier to entry to limit the quantity.

Truss rod delete being $50 is also a deterrent because all it takes is for someone to mistaken drill ONE hole, which is present on the vast majority of all of their guitars, to make it potentially "ruined".


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> 3PB (3-piece body) option, that's the thin black layer between the top and the body wood, is now a no-charge option on Stage 3, $100 on stage 2.



That is no 3 piece body, that's 2 piece of wood with a veneer (Indonesian Ibanez level thinness) in the middle. That's a fucking ripoff calling that a "3 piece body."


----------



## spudmunkey

It's not veneer. it's a phenolic fiberboard. Similar-ish to how Richlite is described some places. 

note: i'm not defending anything...just explaining what it is.

On most models, this same option started with a layer of alder or walnut, and then launched with this black layer on the icon bass. They are all considered part of the "3PB" family.

To be fair, with the body being one-piece, and the top being bookmatched, it's 3 pieces anyway.


----------



## kuma

spudmunkey said:


> New finish option, "Raspberry Jam" just added as an option to the Stage 1 menu ($200), in gloss or raw tone satin.



Just to clarify, this finish is only available in "raw tone" for $200 on Stage 1, it's available no charge in gloss or satin on Stage 2. Which is unfortunate, as IMO it would look fantastic over ash with a black pearl pickguard, and there's no way to get that. (Stage 1 can't have pearloids, Stage 2 includes a flame top, and black pearloid is only available on this run.) Great color though.


----------



## spudmunkey

kuma said:


> Just to clarify, this finish is only available in "raw tone" for $200 on Stage 1, it's available no charge in gloss or satin on Stage 2. Which is unfortunate, as IMO it would look fantastic over ash with a black pearl pickguard, and there's no way to get that. (Stage 1 can't have pearloids, Stage 2 includes a flame top, and black pearloid is only available on this run.) Great color though.



Thanks for the clarity. When it was first posted, it was missing that info.


----------



## spudmunkey

They also added flamed neck and fretboard wood as a stage 1 option, as well as brushed chrome covered pickups for stage 1, and $10 dunlop straplocks for all stages.


----------



## Albake21

Just put in my order for an AM7. Kiesel's multiscales are by far the best fanned frets I've ever played. Never liked many other multiscales I've played. Sadly I was quoted 14 weeks which is the longest I've ever seen.

MAH - Maple Neck/Mahogany Body 
-CG - Clear Gloss Finish 
BMM - Black Magic Metallic 
RMN - Roasted Maple Neck 
THNN - Thinner Neck Profile 
7PHR - 7-String Pointed Headstock Reverse 3+4 
PH - Headstock To Match Body Finish 
RBMF - Roasted Birdseye Maple Fingerboard 
ISOD - Offset Dot Inlays (Staggered) 
IAB - Black Acrylic Inlay Material 
EVO - Gold Med-Jumbo Frets .048" H .103" W 
-R20 - 20in Fretboard Radius (Standard) 
-KLB - Kiesel Lithium Passive Bridge Pickup (Standard) 
-KLN - Kiesel Lithium Passive Neck Pickup (Standard) 
-400 - Black Pickup Coils (Standard) 
PPG - Kiesel Lithium/Beryllium Gold Pickup Poles 
BC - Black Hardware 
GL - Gold Metallic Logo


----------



## possumkiller

spudmunkey said:


> New finish option, "Raspberry Jam" just added as an option to the Stage 1 menu ($200), in gloss or raw tone satin.


Whoa now...

Is that a proper strat from carvin? Not fat ass with skinny arms?


----------



## spudmunkey

possumkiller said:


> Whoa now...
> 
> Is that a proper strat from carvin? Not fat ass with skinny arms?



It seems that way...with that said...I prefer the more strealined, less "flipper" like Bolt and GH3 horns.


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> It seems that way...with that said...I prefer the more strealined, less "flipper" like Bolt and GH3 horns.


Agreed, I actually like the thinner horns and body of the Bolt over the Delos. Not a huge deal, but the Delos just looks like a Bolt that gained weight.


----------



## spudmunkey

I do wish the curve of the pickguard on the bass side of the body more closely matched the outline of the body. It's pretty close on the 24 fret model, but on the 22, it's just like a strat. The Bolt and GH3 don't have this design element, and i prefer it like how those two models.

That said, If they did that, the shape of the body would have to change, or maybe the pickguard could look weird if they just tried to change that.


----------



## spudmunkey

Delos run is closed. 143 guitars sold in two days, apparently (they ship an average of 16-ish per day, for reference/comparison).


----------



## ramses

So ... what's the overunder for the number of days before a guitar from the Delos run shows up in Reverb?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

ramses said:


> So ... what's the overunder for the number of days before a guitar from the Delos run shows up in Reverb?


3 days from when they receive the guitar


----------



## MatiasTolkki

KnightBrolaire said:


> 3 days from when they receive the guitar



I give it a day. I think a couple of those guitars will end up like the dude in the no more kiesel thread with dings and stuff and because it was a "run," no returns and the person will have to take a big loss.


----------



## spudmunkey

ramses said:


> So ... what's the overunder for the number of days before a guitar from the Delos run shows up in Reverb?



I almost believe that there will be at least one listing, where someone tries to just post their spec sheet and sell it from that. Will reverb let you do that? If so, I would not be shocked.


----------



## Seabeast2000

ramses said:


> So ... what's the overunder for the number of days before a guitar from the Delos run shows up in Reverb?



Is this a thing for some specific reason or just general gear whorage?


----------



## ramses

The906 said:


> Is this a thing for some specific reason or just general gear whorage?



Maybe it will be a good value to buy one used in mint condition.


----------



## Jason B

KnightBrolaire said:


> 3 days from when they receive the guitar



And same day as the NGD if the seller’s registered here.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Welp, just ordered that. Fuck .


----------



## KnightBrolaire

The906 said:


> Is this a thing for some specific reason or just general gear whorage?


it's basically a thing that certain gear whores do. people order guitars with certain specs and then immediately try to sell them so they can order a different guitar with different specs. I've seen it happen with aristides and kiesel fanboys.


----------



## Jason B

In fairness to those brands, Periphery fans have been taught that losing thousands in flipping and gear-whoring gear in general will level-up your guitarin’ faster than practicing (“Instead of $1400 for the Jackson will you take $800 and a burnt chrome pink and slime green-screw laser gun-engraved battleworn ragnarok set and a Line 6 expression pedal? $$$ is tight while I’m saving for a custom Jackson”).

It was a head-scratcher until I put it together that the market shifted to buying guitars like they’re shoes. These “players” flip a dozen custom-specc’d guitars because they’re not playing any one of them enough to know for certain what they want in the first place, and they have the credit limit for pro-level guitars that pro-level players don’t.


----------



## iamaom

Ordered a Vader6 in march. They shipped it out yesterday TO THE WRONG FUCKING ADDRESS. My order form even showed my correct address.. Guy on phone said he'd call up FedEx but the shipping hasn't been rerouted and might be delivered Monday or Tuesday. Tried calling Kiesel and of course they're closed on Saturdays so I can't get anyone on the phone. Hope whoever answers the door on the other side of the country doesn't forge my signature and take my package.


----------



## spudmunkey

Sign up for FedEx's (free) Delivery manager. You might be able to re-route it yourself, or at least have it held or delivered to a FedEx location.

I get an email any time a FedEx shipment is on route to me even if the sender doesn't notify me. And then there's certain things you can do with the shipments that you can't necessarily do over the phone as the recipient and not the sender.

https://www.fedex.com/apps/fdmenrollment/


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> Sign up for FedEx's (free) Delivery manager. You might be able to re-route it yourself, or at least have it held or delivered to a FedEx location.
> 
> I get an email any time a FedEx shipment is on route to me even if the sender doesn't notify me. And then there's certain things you can do with the shipments that you can't necessarily do over the phone as the recipient and not the sender.
> 
> https://www.fedex.com/apps/fdmenrollment/



Definitely try it, but typically they don't let you modify the address of the shipment or hold it unless you're the sender. 

When I signed up I needed to put a card on file for address verification, perhaps things have changed since then.

Though, while this is stressful and shitty, if you save all the documentation you should be fine, even if the person who actually gets the guitar is awful. Thankfully you're still within most banks' protection period, if it comes to that.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

iamaom said:


> Ordered a Vader6 in march. They shipped it out yesterday TO THE WRONG FUCKING ADDRESS. My order form even showed my correct address.. Guy on phone said he'd call up FedEx but the shipping hasn't been rerouted and might be delivered Monday or Tuesday. Tried calling Kiesel and of course they're closed on Saturdays so I can't get anyone on the phone. Hope whoever answers the door on the other side of the country doesn't forge my signature and take my package.



Wow, that's really fucked up dude.


----------



## prlgmnr

Jason B said:


> In fairness to those brands, Periphery fans have been taught that losing thousands in flipping and gear-whoring gear in general will level-up your guitarin’ faster than practicing (“Instead of $1400 for the Jackson will you take $800 and a burnt chrome pink and slime green-screw laser gun-engraved battleworn ragnarok set and a Line 6 expression pedal? $$$ is tight while I’m saving for a custom Jackson”).
> 
> It was a head-scratcher until I put it together that the market shifted to buying guitars like they’re shoes. These “players” flip a dozen custom-specc’d guitars because they’re not playing any one of them enough to know for certain what they want in the first place, and they have the credit limit for pro-level guitars that pro-level players don’t.


You're back! Where've you been? What problem does my spellchecker have with "where've"?


----------



## Jason B

prlgmnr said:


> You're back! Where've you been? What problem does my spellchecker have with "where've"?



I just went a while without being bored enough at work to resort to playing headcrusher with SSO.


----------



## iamaom

Wew, guitar is redirected at last minute. Crisis averted I guess.


----------



## Seabeast2000

ramses said:


> So ... what's the overunder for the number of days before a guitar from the Delos run shows up in Reverb?





KnightBrolaire said:


> 3 days from when they receive the guitar



You guys are good.


----------



## olejason

I've been pretty interested in a super simple Osiris build for awhile and finally got around to ordering it. Do you guys know if they'll actually do the black logo on a black body like I've spec'd? I've never seen a finished guitar with it so I'm guessing they'll ask me to change it.

Base Price: $ 1,199.00 
O7 - Kiesel Osiris Headless 7 String Electric Guitar
Right Handed
$ 0.00 - B - Jet Black 
$ 0.00 - RTF - Ultra-Thin Raw Tone Satin Finish (Solid or Translucent Colors Only, Must Order TN Tung-Oiled Neck and Ash Body/Top, Non-Returnable)
$ 80.00 - ASH - Maple Neck/Swamp Ash Body 
$ 100.00 - RMN - Roasted Maple Neck ($200 Restock Fee if returned)
$ 0.00 - -TN - Tung Oil Finish Back Of Neck (Standard)
$ 40.00 - EFB - Ebony Fingerboard (Less Color Variation)
$ 0.00 - NIN - No Top Inlays - Side Dots Only 
$ 0.00 - STJF - Stainless Jumbo Frets .055" H .110" W
$ 0.00 - -R20 - 20in Fretboard Radius (Standard) 
$ 0.00 - -BC - Black Hardware (Standard) 
$ 0.00 - -KLB - Kiesel Lithium Passive Bridge Pickup (Standard)
$ 0.00 - -KLN - Kiesel Lithium Passive Neck Pickup (Standard)
$ 0.00 - -400 - Black Pickup Coils (Standard) 
$ 20.00 - PPB - Kiesel Lithium/Beryllium Black Pickup Poles
$ 0.00 - BL - Black Logo 
$ 0.00 - -1062 - 1062 Light Gauge .010 - .062 (Standard)
$ 60.00 - SC9 - Black Ultimate Soft Guitar Case


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

olejason said:


> I've been pretty interested in a super simple Osiris build for awhile and finally got around to ordering it. Do you guys know if they'll actually do the black logo on a black body like I've spec'd? I've never seen a finished guitar with it so I'm guessing they'll ask me to change it.
> 
> Base Price: $ 1,199.00
> O7 - Kiesel Osiris Headless 7 String Electric Guitar
> Right Handed
> $ 0.00 - B - Jet Black
> $ 0.00 - RTF - Ultra-Thin Raw Tone Satin Finish (Solid or Translucent Colors Only, Must Order TN Tung-Oiled Neck and Ash Body/Top, Non-Returnable)
> $ 80.00 - ASH - Maple Neck/Swamp Ash Body
> $ 100.00 - RMN - Roasted Maple Neck ($200 Restock Fee if returned)
> $ 0.00 - -TN - Tung Oil Finish Back Of Neck (Standard)
> $ 40.00 - EFB - Ebony Fingerboard (Less Color Variation)
> $ 0.00 - NIN - No Top Inlays - Side Dots Only
> $ 0.00 - STJF - Stainless Jumbo Frets .055" H .110" W
> $ 0.00 - -R20 - 20in Fretboard Radius (Standard)
> $ 0.00 - -BC - Black Hardware (Standard)
> $ 0.00 - -KLB - Kiesel Lithium Passive Bridge Pickup (Standard)
> $ 0.00 - -KLN - Kiesel Lithium Passive Neck Pickup (Standard)
> $ 0.00 - -400 - Black Pickup Coils (Standard)
> $ 20.00 - PPB - Kiesel Lithium/Beryllium Black Pickup Poles
> $ 0.00 - BL - Black Logo
> $ 0.00 - -1062 - 1062 Light Gauge .010 - .062 (Standard)
> $ 60.00 - SC9 - Black Ultimate Soft Guitar Case


I have seen others in the past. So I assume they will still build them.


----------



## spudmunkey

I know they used tho, but I seem to remember them changing a couple years ago.

Two alts: 1) their newer black mirror chrome or whatever they call it logo, or 2) the black-and-white drop shadow, to minimize it.


----------



## makecamera

olejason said:


> I've been pretty interested in a super simple Osiris build for awhile and finally got around to ordering it. Do you guys know if they'll actually do the black logo on a black body like I've spec'd? I've never seen a finished guitar with it so I'm guessing they'll ask me to change it.
> 
> Base Price: $ 1,199.00
> O7 - Kiesel Osiris Headless 7 String Electric Guitar
> Right Handed
> $ 0.00 - B - Jet Black
> $ 0.00 - RTF - Ultra-Thin Raw Tone Satin Finish (Solid or Translucent Colors Only, Must Order TN Tung-Oiled Neck and Ash Body/Top, Non-Returnable)
> $ 80.00 - ASH - Maple Neck/Swamp Ash Body
> $ 100.00 - RMN - Roasted Maple Neck ($200 Restock Fee if returned)
> $ 0.00 - -TN - Tung Oil Finish Back Of Neck (Standard)
> $ 40.00 - EFB - Ebony Fingerboard (Less Color Variation)
> $ 0.00 - NIN - No Top Inlays - Side Dots Only
> $ 0.00 - STJF - Stainless Jumbo Frets .055" H .110" W
> $ 0.00 - -R20 - 20in Fretboard Radius (Standard)
> $ 0.00 - -BC - Black Hardware (Standard)
> $ 0.00 - -KLB - Kiesel Lithium Passive Bridge Pickup (Standard)
> $ 0.00 - -KLN - Kiesel Lithium Passive Neck Pickup (Standard)
> $ 0.00 - -400 - Black Pickup Coils (Standard)
> $ 20.00 - PPB - Kiesel Lithium/Beryllium Black Pickup Poles
> $ 0.00 - BL - Black Logo
> $ 0.00 - -1062 - 1062 Light Gauge .010 - .062 (Standard)
> $ 60.00 - SC9 - Black Ultimate Soft Guitar Case



I've ordered white on white and a black on moss green/black limba top, both are nearly invisible, and no one said anything to me.


----------



## olejason

Black on black logo was a no go. They advised doing black on white drop shadow which is fine with me. I can always remove it if it looks bad. Curious to see if it takes the full 3 months, I've seen mention of others getting super basic builds much faster.


----------



## spudmunkey

olejason said:


> Black on black logo was a no go. They advised doing black on white drop shadow which is fine with me. I can always remove it if it looks bad. Curious to see if it takes the full 3 months, I've seen mention of others getting super basic builds much faster.




It almost doesn't really seem to be how 'basic' a build is, more about a couple specific aspects that speed up production:
1: headless guitars (no headstock finish work, all of the headless tuners are installed along with the bridge, etc).
2: Bolt-on necks)
3: Tung oil necks (much quicker cure time)
4: Tung oil or Raw Tone Satin Finish bodies (much quicker cure time, and many fewer coats)
5: No tops


----------



## lurè

Ordered a Vader multiscale 8 the 14th of April with pretty basic specs: 5p neck, solid gloss finish, satin neck and I'm still waiting.
According to their website building time IS about 10-12 weeks.


----------



## spudmunkey

So, Kiesel's done a few builds where they filled in larger voids in buckey burl tops with glowing resin, and then the last couple days have showed off two builds with metallic/sparkle resin.


This was a post from today:

*"Did you know my Metal Flake Infused option is not just for the natural voids in the wood?"*

Soooooo not my thing, but it's certainly interesting. Put a normal neck/fretboard on it, and turn the metal flake either white or black...then *maybe*. 

It's certainly unique, though.


----------



## Albake21

Mother of god, that thing is ugly!


----------



## spudmunkey

If Bruce Springsteen was a drag queen, perhaps?

If they name it, I'm sure it'll be someting like " 'merica II"

As a reminder, this is " 'merica":


----------



## Seabeast2000

That neck is vulgar.


----------



## spudmunkey

At Summer NAMM in Nashville, it'll either be award-winning, or their booth will be burned down. I honestly have no idea.


----------



## cip 123

The906 said:


> That guitar is vulgar.



fixed*


----------



## Seabeast2000

cip 123 said:


> fixed*



I could give the body a pass in a 1973 fashion sense. That neck though....this is a family board so won't say what it looks like.


----------



## spudmunkey

The906 said:


> I could give the body a pass in a 1973 fashion sense.



That's exactly what I was thinking, too. That era. Sort of "hippie meets disco" in a weird way.

I wouldn't even mind the blue neck and red headstock, if the fretboard were just something like a plain maple, or birdseye maple, with no color.


----------



## spudmunkey

Actually, more like the start of Glam Country like Dolly Parton. "Rhinestone Cowboy."


----------



## Seabeast2000

spudmunkey said:


> Actually, more like the start of Glam Country like Dolly Parton. "Rhinestone Cowboy."


Bronco Billy too.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

spudmunkey said:


> Actually, more like the start of Glam Country like Dolly Parton. "Rhinestone Cowboy."



I was thinking it's the perfect signature model for the secret lovechild of Brad Paisley and Paul Gilbert!


----------



## belleswell

I was shopping for a custom made model on their website for over a year, playing with the different options. All of the ones I put together were at least 2k, and most were closer to 3k. This SBC6 was not one I would have normally picked, but the price was right and it gave me a chance to see if the hype was deserved.

This same guitar would have cost almost 2k if I were to have it built. It was listed on feebay for less than half that, and it had only been played for about a half hour. Mint. It was used at the 2014 NAMM show to highlight a new tone wood (new at least for them that year), Black Limba. The hype was well deserved. An excellent guitar.

The day before at the NAMM show


----------



## spudmunkey

An SCB is one of those that I dont lust after, but respect...and it seems like everyone who owns one says it's their favorite guitar. Congrats on the NGD.


----------



## squids

so what is the consensus on these? i havent been able to find one in person to try, and it seems like the reviews go back and forth; either they are great guitars or not. 
i have an ibanez prestige 7 string, and im looking to sell the rest of my mediocre guitars over the summer and buy one “nice” 6 string. the idea of headless (like an osiris) interests me, but id likely be buying used (no sense in ordering custom if the resale value is low). on the other hand, a 6 string prestige ibanez can be had for similar prices or less, so im kinda just wondering how people who have both feel about one versus the other. for reference, i play a lot of tech death/prog/black metal.


----------



## spudmunkey

They currently make 4000+ guitars a year, and they have been building semi-custom guitars for decades. While there are definitely those who are unhappy, no doubt about it (and those issues ranged from overall quality, to QC to customer service...the whole gamut) the vast majority seems happy. And maybe I'm a minority, but I never really bonded with my Ibanez Prestige, and sold it once I got my Carvin CS6 (granted, that was 11 years ago in '08). I bought an Aries in 2016, which is sort of a blend, body wise, of an RG and an S (The Ibanez I had was an S, and I prefer the Aries body's wider bottom edge so it's more confortable on my leg when playing while seated).

Keep in mind that the headless feature automatically jumps the price up $50. Also, while there's still absolutely a benefit to buying used, Kiesels seem to be holding their value a little better that Carvins of years past...on the other hand, Kiesel-branded guitars have only been around for 5 years, so it's not like you can compare a 2017 DC127 to a 1990 DC127. But as they've gotten busier, the leadtimes are a little longer than they used to be, so there's more incentive to buy used than there was when their standard leadtime was 6-8 weeks. Before, if you could get what you wanted in 2 months or less, you're not really incentivized to "settle" unless the price was good. With average leadtimes pushing 12 weeks, the used market gets a little more appealing even without as much of a steep price hit. Headless bolt ons with tung oil necks, though, seem to be a little quicker.

I would say unless you know you'd like them, try their pickups other than the Lithium. They are fairly polarizing. They have a couple models than can be switched out for no charge, and I think two that are $20 (Thorium bridge, and Illusionist bridge). Keep in mind that the pickup routes are designed to be tight to the pickups, so you might need to modify the plate of some pickups...but again, that's not too unusual for direct mount pickups.

The metal players that are using their guitars, lots of them came from the in-stock section so it's not like all of their guitars are made just for the artists to some higher standard like many companies do.

Bottom line, their fretwork is pretty-to-really good, their finish quality is top notch (aesthetics are subjective  ), and they use decent hardware. Hipshot bridges, and their locking headstock-mounted tuners are 19:1 and feel pretty good. The headless fixed bridge they use is a modified version of an off-the-shelf bridge, so there's a slight chance you might see one around...but Kiesel seems to be the biggest user of them anyway.

If you know you like thin necks, get their thin neck option...but don't expect a Wizard-like experience. Their normal neck thickness is comfortable for me (I thought my Ibanez was too thin, and caused cramping) and is similar to some Schecters I've played, and I've heard some say quite similar to "USA jackson" but I've got no experience with that, and don't even know if that doesn't narrow it down enough.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

squids said:


> so what is the consensus on these? i havent been able to find one in person to try, and it seems like the reviews go back and forth; either they are great guitars or not.
> i have an ibanez prestige 7 string, and im looking to sell the rest of my mediocre guitars over the summer and buy one “nice” 6 string. the idea of headless (like an osiris) interests me, but id likely be buying used (no sense in ordering custom if the resale value is low). on the other hand, a 6 string prestige ibanez can be had for similar prices or less, so im kinda just wondering how people who have both feel about one versus the other. for reference, i play a lot of tech death/prog/black metal.



From purely a quality standpoint, you probably won't be disappointed. Kiesel tends to make good guitars. 

Just be sure to keep the options fairly basic. The ~$2k builds tend to be the sweet spot as far as quality to price. 

Not to mention, the fewer options the fewer opportunities for an error with your build. 

Read all the fine print and you should be good to go.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

squids said:


> so what is the consensus on these? i havent been able to find one in person to try, and it seems like the reviews go back and forth; either they are great guitars or not.
> i have an ibanez prestige 7 string, and im looking to sell the rest of my mediocre guitars over the summer and buy one “nice” 6 string. the idea of headless (like an osiris) interests me, but id likely be buying used (no sense in ordering custom if the resale value is low). on the other hand, a 6 string prestige ibanez can be had for similar prices or less, so im kinda just wondering how people who have both feel about one versus the other. for reference, i play a lot of tech death/prog/black metal.


They make very solid guitars. The ones that I've had were/are easily on par with ESP E-IIs and core PRS that I've played.
Fit/Finish on all of my guitars were great, with no aesthetic issues that I could find. Setup is subjective, but all of mine came set up well out of the box with no fret buzz/dead notes, etc. Pickups are again subjective, but the lithiums are solid stock pickups, though they tend to be pretty bright sounding unless you slap them in a darker sounding guitar. The thing I liked most about kiesel is that you almost always get nicely figured woods. I ordered some necks/bodies through warmoth and their flame maple necks/quilted tops/black limba bodies were lackluster in comparison.
Used carvins/kiesels are still the best bang for your buck around imo. You can get nicely specced guitars for the price of a new EII/ Ibby prestige or even cheaper all day.


----------



## squids

thanks for the replies, ill probably keep it real simple with swamp ash body, (roasted?) maple neck, rosewood board, etc. i also wonder if its possible to have just a single bridge pickup....although i feel like that may come with a massive upcharge.


----------



## spudmunkey

squids said:


> thanks for the replies, ill probably keep it real simple with swamp ash body, (roasted?) maple neck, rosewood board, etc. i also wonder if its possible to have just a single bridge pickup....although i feel like that may come with a massive upcharge.



Bridge pickup only isn't available on everything. I don't believe it's available on the bolt-on models except the pickguarded Delos.

I imagine it's because of the way the neck heel and pickup route interact. That's why they can't do it on the CT/CS (the neck tenon extends all the way through the neck pickup route), so I imagine it's a similar sort of limitation on the guitar bolt-ons (not that the neck extends into the route, but just the interaction itself). The Aries has been around for a long time, and I've never seen a bridge-only pickup config on it.

I know they can do it on the Crescent, the Holdsworth models, and the neck-through models and Delos...but I'm not sure about anything else.


I know on some models, people have gotten single coil pickups in the neck to get as close to the look of a bridge-only layout as possible. They do offer a single coil-sized humbucker, but only in 6-string.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

*MOD EDIT: We have a "bad Kiesel thread". Let's keep the banter over there. *


----------



## ryanougrad

Not sure if right place to post this, but does the Aries still have issues with the saddles on the hipshot bridge or has this been resolved? Thinking of ordering but not looking to roll the dice on this issue.


----------



## spudmunkey

ryanougrad said:


> Not sure if right place to post this, but does the Aries still have issues with the saddles on the hipshot bridge or has this been resolved? Thinking of ordering but not looking to roll the dice on this issue.



I haven't seen anyone post about it anywhere for a long while, and it still seems to be one of their better-selling models. I'm not saying it's necessarily fixed, but at least there _seems _to be no more "smoke" to that "fire". I haven't personally seen a recent one (mine's from 2016).


----------



## Jeff

squids said:


> thanks for the replies, ill probably keep it real simple with swamp ash body, (roasted?) maple neck, rosewood board, etc. i also wonder if its possible to have just a single bridge pickup....although i feel like that may come with a massive upcharge.



And for crissakes, DON'T get a non-returnable option. That's when the build is jinxed.


----------



## spudmunkey

Metal flake filled.


----------



## Jeff

spudmunkey said:


> Metal flake filled.



That is beyond hideous.


----------



## spudmunkey

I don't mind that it exists, but the spiral should terminate somehow. Not just...stop.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

spudmunkey said:


> Metal flake filled.


what a waste of a flamed maple top. It would actually be a cool idea if they'd done a blacked out body to keep the emphasis on the metal flake spiral


----------



## ThePIGI King

Anybody know if they would do Opt 50 a guitar like the Vader for fretless?


----------



## spudmunkey

ThePIGI King said:


> Anybody know if they would do Opt 50 a guitar like the Vader for fretless?



Yep. I've seen at least two (maybe 3...) See the guitar on the left for the most well-known example. This one does have black inlayed lines, but no frets, plus their "Hard As Nails fretboard finish.





More photos:
http://www.unfretted.com/fretless-guitars/carvin-kiesal-will-supply-fretless-guitars/


----------



## ThePIGI King

spudmunkey said:


> Yep. See the guitar on the left:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More photos:
> http://www.unfretted.com/fretless-guitars/carvin-kiesal-will-supply-fretless-guitars/


Fastest and happiest help ever. Thanks duder.


----------



## c7spheres

I've played Carvins back in the day that were nice but one thing that was always sort of a red flag to me about getting one was the fact that for years I've kept seeing so many near new condition ones go up for sale at big losses. I would expect them to be way harder to get on the used market in this condition if they were "keeper" guitars. It seems like if you get one you want to keep forever then it's like finding a unicorn or something. It's harder to get a near new condition used Ibanez at a price comparably low. Everything about them looks so nice, so why do they seem to get sold off so often? Especially compared to the small numbers in relation to a company like Ibanez. Something just doesn't add up.


----------



## LeviathanKiller

c7spheres said:


> I've played Carvins back in the day that were nice but one thing that was always sort of a red flag to me about getting one was the fact that for years I've kept seeing so many near new condition ones go up for sale at big losses. I would expect them to be way harder to get on the used market in this condition if they were "keeper" guitars. It seems like if you get one you want to keep forever then it's like finding a unicorn or something. It's harder to get a near new condition used Ibanez at a price comparably low. Everything about them looks so nice, so why do they seem to get sold off so often? Especially compared to the small numbers in relation to a company like Ibanez. Something just doesn't add up.



I think it's largely because the plethora of options make each one so unique. Sure someone could live with someone else's chosen specs, but a lot of people knowing that Kiesel could make something more customized to them...makes the value of a second-hand one less.


----------



## spudmunkey

There's 1 kiesel for sale on my local craigslist, even in in the "extended area" search results. There was zero until I emailed a guy to tell him that he had it listed as a "keisel" and it wasn't showing up in search results.

There's 96 Ibanez guitars on my local craigslist.

Historically, the poor resale was just because of the business model of the company. Why settle for a used guitar for $900, when for only $300 more, you can get one customized with the _exact_ specs you want, and it's only 6-8 weeks.

Now that leadtimes are 10-12 weeks (and longer if it's a more labor-intensive finish), the appeal of a "I can get it now if I settle" used guitar has more appeal than it did historically, and the resale prices have actually a little gotten better overall.

I definitely don't get the "churn-and-burn", though, of some people who buy a $3,500 guitar and then list if for $2,100 11 days later. To me, though, it says more about the customer than the guitar.


----------



## spudmunkey

ThePIGI King said:


> Fastest and happiest help ever. Thanks duder.



An amusing coincidence...someone just shared a video, to the Kiesel Facebook group, of them playing the other fretless I rememebred. (I THINK I remember another vader in the "earth" finish...but not 100%) I'm at work so I haven't listened to/watched it yes, so forgive me if it's terrible.


----------



## Albake21

KnightBrolaire said:


> what a waste of a flamed maple top. It would actually be a cool idea if they'd done a blacked out body to keep the emphasis on the metal flake spiral


100% agree. I don't hate this idea, although I'm not sure I'd ever get it, but I just hate that it's on a nice flamed maple top. This would be cool on a raw tone black or hell even the black magic.


----------



## spudmunkey

spudmunkey said:


> (I THINK I remember another vader in the "earth" finish...but not 100%)



Nope, I'm wrong. That one was a bass.

The 3rd one I didn't remember correctly was an SCB:


----------



## c7spheres

LeviathanKiller said:


> I think it's largely because the plethora of options make each one so unique. Sure someone could live with someone else's chosen specs, but a lot of people knowing that Kiesel could make something more customized to them...makes the value of a second-hand one less.





spudmunkey said:


> There's 1 kiesel for sale on my local craigslist, even in in the "extended area" search results. There was zero until I emailed a guy to tell him that he had it listed as a "keisel" and it wasn't showing up in search results.
> 
> There's 96 Ibanez guitars on my local craigslist.
> 
> Historically, the poor resale was just because of the business model of the company. Why settle for a used guitar for $900, when for only $300 more, you can get one customized with the _exact_ specs you want, and it's only 6-8 weeks.
> 
> Now that leadtimes are 10-12 weeks (and longer if it's a more labor-intensive finish), the appeal of a "I can get it now if I settle" used guitar has more appeal than it did historically, and the resale prices have actually a little gotten better overall.
> 
> I definitely don't get the "churn-and-burn", though, of some people who buy a $3,500 guitar and then list if for $2,100 11 days later. To me, though, it says more about the customer than the guitar.



I guess I'm just trying to figure out why sell the guitar to begin with if it's so great. I just see a lot of them that look practically brand new up for sale. It's hard to believe that so many people would get rid of such a great guitar in such good condition for so little money unless something wasn't vibing with them whether it be comfort, tone, or some other factor. I've had a few full custom builds over the years and let them go in almost mint condition because of either tone or comfort or something wasn't gelling with me about it, and I suspect this is probably the same kinda thing. Nothing wrong with the quality or build, just something that isn't gelling for some reason with people. I'd still like to try out the 7 strings to get an idea about the profile of the necks compared to a Wizard or Agile neck.


----------



## Mathemagician

spudmunkey said:


> Metal flake filled.



I’m not sure I “love” it all together. But that’s a cool idea, and a great looking flame too and I like the darker brown body wood color with the flat single color flame. The fact that there isn’t an obvious third wood in the bevel keeps it looking clean. I like green and black just maybe not on this. Still actually pretty cool imo.


----------



## spudmunkey

Mathemagician said:


> The fact that there isn’t an obvious third wood in the bevel keeps it looking clean.



That's one thing nice about the Zeus and Osiris models. The bottom edge of the top is actually slightly more rounded than on something like the Aries. Rounded enough that they don't want to have to try to tape the edges of the top off to offer their natural "binding effect" paint option on these models, unless you give up the 10-day and then they put a tighter radius on that edge. They want their production model to have the comfort that designed it to have, and that's that, I guess.

So what I'm saying is that it's kinda nice than on the Zeus and Osiris, you don't see so many of the multi-layered looks, because it's not available as a standard option. Even on the models like the Aries and SCB, i definitely generally prefer it when the color wraps over the edge of the top, even if the body wood itself is still clear. OK, so I'll admit....there's been a few builds with the "(D)BBEB" aka "(Deep) Body Binding Efffect Bevel" option that look kool...but most I think would be better off without it.

As far as this spiral, in a recent live video where he showed off the blue Solo ("tele") above, he brought up custom designs as something that could be cool...but not on the near horizon. I could see that being a somewhat popular option for a little while...but I think people would be disappointed by the lack of "sharpness" possible when filling with metal flake. Get areas that are too thin, and the metal flake won't be able to fit so you'd just end up with empty filler. Maybe if they just did opaque black, or something?


----------



## spudmunkey

Up until now, all necks have been quarter sawn _except_ for their "base" standard, one-piece maple necks have been flat sawn.

Now, their one-piece maple necks are also quarter sawn.

The "likely july 1st" price increase hasn't hit yet, but the neck upgrade has (a point mentioned in their marketing email).

Edit: one exception. Birdseye maple necks have to be cut as flat sawn for the birdseye figuring to be visible this way.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Anyone know if carvin single coil routes are standard or if they are goofy like the bucker routes?


----------



## LeviathanKiller

The906 said:


> Anyone know if carvin single coil routes are standard or if they are goofy like the bucker routes?



I wasn't aware the humbucker routes were unusual? I did a swap easily.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

LeviathanKiller said:


> I wasn't aware the humbucker routes were unusual? I did a swap easily.



Yeah, they ditched the goofy routes when they ditched the Carvin pickups.


----------



## technomancer

spudmunkey said:


> Up until now, all necks have been quarter sawn _except_ for their "base" standard, one-piece maple necks have been flat sawn.
> 
> Now, their one-piece maple necks are also quarter sawn.
> 
> The "likely july 1st" price increase hasn't hit yet, but the neck upgrade has (a point mentioned in their marketing email).
> 
> Edit: one exception. Birdseye maple necks have to be cut as flat sawn for the birdseye figuring to be visible this way.



When did this start? I ask because there are 2 D6 in stocks that both have one piece necks that look flat sawn and I know that model / headstock is recent.


----------



## spudmunkey

technomancer said:


> When did this start? I ask because there are 2 D6 in stocks that both have one piece necks that look flat sawn and I know that model / headstock is recent.



They sent an email out yesterday.


----------



## Seabeast2000

LeviathanKiller said:


> I wasn't aware the humbucker routes were unusual? I did a swap easily.



Yeah, I have a Carvin TL60 with SSS and would like to consider stuffing an EMG S ceramic set in it. But if there are weird dimensions or too shallow of a route for the then nah.


----------



## lurè

So my VM8 is ready to ship and I've received an email to pay the remaining balance.

According to them is $160 more then what I have on my receipt at the voice "balance due".


----------



## Opion

lurè said:


> So my VM8 is ready to ship and I've received an email to pay the remaining balance.
> 
> According to them is $160 more then what I have on my receipt at the voice "balance due".



I would show it to them and ask to see why?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

lurè said:


> So my VM8 is ready to ship and I've received an email to pay the remaining balance.
> 
> According to them is $160 more then what I have on my receipt at the voice "balance due".



International shipping? 

Domestic shipping was never included in my order invoice, but added to the final total. This was back when it was Carvin though, so take that with a grain of salt.


----------



## diagrammatiks

c7spheres said:


> I guess I'm just trying to figure out why sell the guitar to begin with if it's so great. I just see a lot of them that look practically brand new up for sale. It's hard to believe that so many people would get rid of such a great guitar in such good condition for so little money unless something wasn't vibing with them whether it be comfort, tone, or some other factor. I've had a few full custom builds over the years and let them go in almost mint condition because of either tone or comfort or something wasn't gelling with me about it, and I suspect this is probably the same kinda thing. Nothing wrong with the quality or build, just something that isn't gelling for some reason with people. I'd still like to try out the 7 strings to get an idea about the profile of the necks compared to a Wizard or Agile neck.



There’s literally no rhyme or reason as to why people sell shit man.


----------



## lurè

Opion said:


> I would show it to them and ask to see why?



I still have it and I've attached it to my response, let's see what they say.



MaxOfMetal said:


> International shipping?
> 
> Domestic shipping was never included in my order invoice, but added to the final total. This was back when it was Carvin though, so take that with a grain of salt.



I think the initial deposit covers also shipping and, according to the receipt, shipping is $54, so those $160 comes out of nowhere.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

diagrammatiks said:


> There’s literally no rhyme or reason as to why people sell shit man.



I know why i sold the guitars I had: Space and use. Really no other reason than that.


----------



## olejason

lurè said:


> I think the initial deposit covers also shipping and, according to the receipt, shipping is $54, so those $160 comes out of nowhere.



Could be shipping but that seems high. Shipping for my Osiris was $30 USD but that is within the country obviously. How many weeks did your build take?


----------



## lurè

I've paid $54 for shipping and build time is 10 weeks .
The custom shop build time was estimated around 10-12 weeks.


olejason said:


> Could be shipping but that seems high. Shipping for my Osiris was $30 USD but that is within the country obviously. How many weeks did your build take?


----------



## spudmunkey

Just in the last few weeks, if I understand correctly, they ended their flat-rate anywhere-in-the-world promo shipping, and I believe int'l shipping is closer to $150 or might even depend on where it's shipping. Not sure on that. 

But, perhaps they goofed and didnt waive the new higher price on already-placed orders? 

It's the only thing I could think of.


----------



## lurè

When I placed the order, International shipping was $27, which isn't true since I've been charged for $54.
Now, according to the website, shipping varies depending on country but I won't ever believe that an additional $160 Is required for shipping a guitar in Europe.
Still have to get a response tho.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

lurè said:


> When I placed the order, International shipping was $27, which isn't true since I've been charged for $54.
> Now, according to the website, shipping varies depending on country but I won't ever believe that an additional $160 Is required for shipping a guitar in Europe.
> Still have to get a response tho.



Dont expect a response without calling them and harassing them. The Kiesel never again thread is proof of that.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

MatiasTolkki said:


> Dont expect a response without calling them and harassing them. The Kiesel never again thread is proof of that.



Holiday weekend most likely. 

If Monday goes by without a resolution definitely call.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> Holiday weekend most likely.
> 
> If Monday goes by without a resolution definitely call.



This. Holiday on Thursday, might also have had Friday off.


----------



## olejason

$150 is probably about right to ship it to Europe from California. I'm guessing this happened because you did a deposit instead of the full amount. From their perspective you didn't "lock in" the old discounted shipping rate so now when they run the numbers you're charged the new higher rate. If you complain they might let it slide and give you the old rate.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Anyone have the rundown on scale length options at Kiesel? What's the longest guitar scale they offer and is it relegated to a model or string count? I can slog through a bunch of Guitar Builders but figured I'd ask here first.


----------



## diagrammatiks

26.5 for 6 strings. 27 for seven strings.


----------



## Seabeast2000

diagrammatiks said:


> 26.5 for 6 strings. 27 for seven strings.



GTG thanks.


----------



## spudmunkey

diagrammatiks said:


> 26.5 for 6 strings. 27 for seven strings.



One exception: the headless Vader's 6- string extended scale is a 27". And to be clear, not all models offer extended scale. For example, theres no 26.5" or 27" CT6 or Delos.

27" on the 8-strings also, but 27.5", if you go multiscale on them.


----------



## spudmunkey

New Model: Theos. I didn't see the whole live "reveal" video yet, but I believe it comes in at least 6 and 7 string, and multiscale.

Think: Delos + their old C66. Like the Delos shape, but no pickguard and square edge of their old C66. Chambering, roasted maple neck and top of some sort (due to chambering) is standard. Will co-exist with bevel-delete Aries.

Definitely looks to target Charvel/Suhr, when it comes to the overall look.


----------



## spudmunkey

Also, available with a floyd.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

spudmunkey said:


> Definitely looks to target Charvel/Suhr, when it comes to the overall look.



Wow, you can say that again


----------



## spudmunkey

Theos (left) vs bevel-delete Aries (right)


----------



## LeviathanKiller

spudmunkey said:


> Theos (left) vs bevel-delete Aries (right)
> View attachment 70933



I like the horns of the Aries better but the butt/bottom of the Theos better.


----------



## Albake21

Just like the Delos, I think the body and horns are way too chunky. Honestly prefer the Bolt's body over the Delos and now Theos.


----------



## spudmunkey

Albake21 said:


> Just like the Delos, I think the body and horns are way too chunky. Honestly prefer the Bolt's body over the Delos and now Theos.



Same. The Bolt and GH3 (which is more Bolt-like, event though it's 24 frets) is much more attractive to me...but what do i know. People have been shitting on the Bolt for looking "like a strat, but wrong" for a couple of decades. 

The bolt was definitely boxier. It had a smaller radius around the perimeter, so the body could be more slim around the horn. The Delos has a larger radius, so it has to be wider around the horn, so that it has the space to get flat enough for the pickguard. This is why they said they wouldn't do a "BBE" version of the Delos, even though they did on the Bolt. The body _is_ wider around the horn, and squaring it off would meake it look even wider.

Here was a Bolt, with the squared off perimeter. It looks so much wider around the horn, but it's the exact same body.


----------



## spudmunkey




----------



## Seabeast2000

Waiting on the Anos, Penos and Chonchos models.


----------



## spudmunkey

Stereos, Rodeos, and Oreos, too.


----------



## LordCashew

I'm holding out for the Broncanous, Trajaina and Balzak.


----------



## Spicypickles

spudmunkey said:


>



Damn. I don’t think I’ve seen many keisel’s that I’ve liked at all, but this is killer.


----------



## Seabeast2000

LordIronSpatula said:


> I'm holding out for the Broncanous, Trajaina and Balzak.



Nice GB reference.


----------



## Bdtunn

Ah dang it I like this one


----------



## Jeff

The new one looks like it has a beer gut, compared to the Aries.


----------



## spudmunkey




----------



## MetalHex

Sparkly banana nut swirl galaxy zebra candy blast flame burst


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Looks like a "reverse Dinky". Like the body is just every so slightly bigger than a normal Strat. Looks just fine as a 7.


----------



## laxu

I don't like it. The Theos looks to me like someone's first self-built guitar where they tried to make a Strat but their drawings were off. I also don't really understand where it fits in Kiesel's lineup, it's not like they don't already have a bunch of superstrats. To me the Aries and DC models cover that territory nicely.


----------



## spudmunkey

it's meant for all the people that wanted a "delos, without the pickguard", for whom the Aries (even with the bevel delete) is too "modern" and "pointy".

The "easy" way to make that, which is the route they tookis to just square off the perimeter radius...but that makes it look too fat, too me. The rounded edges of the delos helps make it "appear" more slim than this. It's also the reason they won't offer the delos with this edge detail.

There's seems to be a market for this sort of thing, if only based on the fact that Kiesel continues to advertise in Vintage Guitar magazine: their only print ads. This seems to be something that would be very popular with that crowd (the crowd that isn't purist F snobs, anyway).


----------



## laxu

spudmunkey said:


> it's meant for all the people that wanted a "delos, without the pickguard", for whom the Aries (even with the bevel delete) is too "modern" and "pointy".
> 
> The "easy" way to make that, which is the route they tookis to just square off the perimeter radius...but that makes it look too fat, too me. The rounded edges of the delos helps make it "appear" more slim than this. It's also the reason they won't offer the delos with this edge detail.



Then they could've just brought back the C66. It's not too pointy, it's not too wide. It can look modern or old school depending on woods and finishes.


----------



## spudmunkey

laxu said:


> Then they could've just brought back the C66. It's not too pointy, it's not too wide. It can look modern or old school depending on woods and finishes.



That would have been the only model to use that neck/neck pocket, and they'd have to re-design the heel anyway. Plus, make the 24 fret version, and the 7-string version, and multiscale versions. Might very well have been easier to use their "Delos" model instead. If it would have sold enough of the c66, they would have kept it in the first place, I have to assume.

Plus, new Model = a bit of a press bump when other outlets report on it.

Don't get me wrong, I liked the c66. I was almost going to get a Bolt with the C66 edges....but got my Aries instead.


----------



## Samark

Really digging the new model. That with a faded blue top and maple board would be killer 
Probably my favourite Kiesel model so far


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Hm the buckeye ones with roasted necks look like the Jason Richardson sig


----------



## spudmunkey

Apparenlty the "base" price of the model is $1599 and that comes with a flamed maple top, matching headstock and rear in clear (their RNC option). For $100 less, you can get a plain top (with solid finishes only...no trans finishes), no headstock veneer, and the body is painted to match the top. You still get the BBE (Body Binding Effect) clear edge of the maple top.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Hm the buckeye ones with roasted necks look like the Jason Richardson sig



Come on, they're not that ugly.


----------



## diagrammatiks

hmm that's a nice suhr modern.


----------



## Jeff

diagrammatiks said:


> hmm that's a nice suhr modern.



-$2000


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

MaxOfMetal said:


> Come on, they're not that ugly.



Yeahhhh I don't like diarrhea burl. Plus Kiesel charges 600 for a buckeye >.>


----------



## spudmunkey

According to Jeff, Electric City pickups is having to/had to close due to the owner's health. They have transfered over the designs and rights for the Johnny Hiland over to Kiesel, who will continue to produce them. This will also mean that you'll be able to get them on other models, as well. 

Apparently before that happened, Mark Kiesel had already been working on some single coils pickups that should be ready fairly soon. No real ideal of what they are supposed to be like, except I *think* they are also individual magnets instead of bars+poles, like the Hiland sig pickups.


----------



## BigViolin

Did the lithium singles go away? What singles are actually available now other than the AP and S?


----------



## Ascension

Have had a love hate relationship with Carvin Kiesel as a company for many years but love the guitars. There are 2 mods on the Kiesel /Carvin forum still over issues that happened almost 20 years ago would still like to find in a dark ally and rearrange there face!
That said keep coming back to the guitars as they play great sound great and work every night without drama on the road every time.
Own 5 love them all play them on stage more than my other 10 guitars put together.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

that pink x220... YUMMMMM


----------



## spudmunkey

BigViolin said:


> Did the lithium singles go away? What singles are actually available now other than the AP and S?



It depends on the string count, but theres the:
AP11 (on it's way out, 6 string only)

AP13 (on its eay out if not already gone, 7 string only)

S60 (6 string only)

Beryllium (I dont remember if this is 7 and 8 string, but I believe so. On the 6 string models, they are covered like the s60 except on models with a pickguard, wbere they then have exposed pole pieces. I dont know if that is also the case with the 7 string. And they dont have any pickguard 8 string models anyway).

Lithium 6, 7 and 8 string.

TBH60 (single coil sized humbuckers, only 6 string...they dont actually make this one in-house)

Johnny Hiland which will have individual magnetic pole pieces, instead of bar magnets (if I understand correctly). Not sure if they are just for 6.

Mark Kiesel's new ones, whenever those are ready, which were originally in the direction of Johnny's before they got the rights...I imagine they are a bit different. Not sure what string counts they will be in.


----------



## spudmunkey

They just announced a Zeus run, for anybody interested. all string counts, guitar and bass, straight and multiscale.

All info is on their facebook group. A new thing this year: the "Stage 1" instruments will be ordered online with a link that will be posted when it starts. Stage 2 and 3 will still need to call in.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/KieselZeusRun/

The lowest price package "stage" starts at $1300, which is $150 higher than the base price ($100 more than the base 4-string bass). It includes, in that base price, 10 different Splatter or Crackle finish options which are normally $200+, any of their 3 neck thicknesses, and a streamlined free menu of pickups, inlay shapes and colors, fretboard radius, logos, pickup configs and colors, pickup pole piece colors, optional tone knob delete. Some other limited options available, some at a discount.


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> They just announced a Zeus run, for anybody interested. all string counts, guitar and bass, straight and multiscale.
> 
> All info is on their facebook group. A new thing this year: the "Stage 1" instruments will be ordered online with a link that will be posted when it starts. Stage 2 and 3 will still need to call in.
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/KieselZeusRun/
> 
> The lowest price package "stage" starts at $1300, which is $150 higher than the base price ($100 more than the base 4-string bass). It includes, in that base price, 10 different Splatter or Crackle finish options which are normally $200+, any of their 3 neck thicknesses, and a streamlined free menu of pickups, inlay shapes and colors, fretboard radius, logos, pickup configs and colors, pickup pole piece colors, optional tone knob delete. Some other limited options available, some at a discount.


I was thinking about jumping onto it for a bass, only to see that Stage 1 requires a splatter or a crackle. That's an automatic no for me..


----------



## spudmunkey

black splatter on black? 

Not sure I jive with the splatter color options. The black with colorshift/blue/purple one was pretty neat. I'm reeeally digging their "black with keisel racing green" scheme they showed lately, but I'm not 100% sure it's included in this run. I *think* it is...

I might..._might_ have jumped in of the Osiris was included. But, nah...my $179 Ibanez Talman bass suits my needs just fine, if it's not the "right" spec.

I do kinda wish that they would do a run where the lowest price model was cheaper than it normally is. They did that with the Delos run. Not only did it come bundled with some options, but it was also $50 cheaper than the base model. That was reeeeeeeeeeally tempting. Although, I realize their real profit comes from the options, and that their margins are MUCH thinner on basic builds.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

I am considering the zeus run. I am still on the fence


----------



## LeviathanKiller

I wish they would do a Theos run since that's the newest model (and the one I want haha)


----------



## Seabeast2000

So these runs (not on the FB), are discounted pre-spec'd batches?


----------



## Albake21

The906 said:


> So these runs (not on the FB), are discounted pre-spec'd batches?


Yes and no. It really depends on the run and the specs you choose. Realistically they aren't really worth it unless you are looking for something super specific or whatever new thing Kiesel has to offer. As someone who has been on 2 runs, I'm not sure I'll get on another one. You could technically spec out a guitar that would actually cost more than normal if you don't choose a bunch of the optional free upgrades. You basically have to take advantage of most, if not all of the optional free upgrades to actually get anything out of the run (discount-wise).


----------



## spudmunkey

Basically, they put together a limited menu of options, so that they can batch them out more efficiently. This shortens leadtime, reduces impact on their normal-ordered products, and time = money. They can pre-make neck blanks, spray paint bodies in batches, etc.

They usually offer 3 "stages". Each stage getting a higher-spec bundle of included options. The cheapest is usually within spitting distance of the base model's price (in this case $100-$150 more), but in that price you get to pick from the streamlined menu of finishes that normally cost $200-$300, and then there's a handfull of other options that they are offering for free like pickup configs, pickup covers, a handfull of inlay options, etc. So if you wanted this exact spec, you could save a couple hundred bucks, ish. They also normally have a small number of upgrades available at a discount.

The delos one they did a while back was sort of rediculous...not only was the stage 1 price lower, but it came with roasted neck, and a few other options that really made it a knock-out value.

This Zeus run seems like less of a knock-out value, at least for the 1st price stage which is the only one I've really looked at. There's a Stage 2 for $1700 which comes with some higher-end specs, and then a $3K stage which has finish options that only Jeff does himself, and other upgraded woods, etc.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Thanks for the info @Albake21 , @spudmunkey , 

I


----------



## spudmunkey

spudmunkey said:


> The lowest price package "stage" starts at $1300, which is $150 higher than the base price ($100 more than the base 4-string bass). It includes, in that base price, 10 different Splatter or Crackle finish options which are normally $200+



A clarification/update to this: the crackle finishes are normally $300, and then because the ones here are over metallic finishes which are normally another $100, the Crackle finish choices here are normally $400. So since the guitar is $150 more than standard, the crackle finishes are technically $250 off, plus then any other of the free options you pick (like, say, fretboard radius change is like a $50 difference), so it's relatively easy to save $300.*

*(if you would have picked all of these exact options anyway)


On the Splatters, the base colors are not metallic, but some of the splatters are metallic.


----------



## Hollowway

I’m tempted to get an 8 string with trem for a stage 1. If they had a maple board, I’d definitely be in for a white base with the neon splatter colors (assuming they’re going to make that an option. It’s not on the splatter poll, but it IS in the run photo.). Otherwise I’m not sure. 
I’ve also been wanting one of those ridiculous 7 string basses, so I want to do that, as well, but also a stage one. That one is a much better deal, as the 7 string option is $1300 plus $250 = $1550. The normal base for that is $1799.

@spudmunkey you haven’t seen the crackle options posted anywhere, have you? I found the splatters in your post on the BBS on the kiesel site, but nothing about the available crackles for this run.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> @spudmunkey you haven’t seen the crackle options posted anywhere, have you? I found the splatters in your post on the BBS on the kiesel site, but nothing about the available crackles for this run.



No, not yet. There's a silver/black Aries that they showed in the announcement vid, and that they were supposedly finishing a "Lambo orange" one, but they didn't show it yet.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> I’ve also been wanting one of those ridiculous 7 string basses, so I want to do that, as well, but also a stage one. That one is a much better deal, as the 7 string option is $1300 plus $250 = $1550. The normal base for that is $1799.



Add another $250. There's no 7 string non-multiscale, so it's $500 above the base bass.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> Add another $250. There's no 7 string non-multiscale, so it's $500 above the base bass.


Oh really? I assumed that since the only 7 is multi that when they listed “7 string” that also meant multi. If it’s like you’re saying then it’s basically back to the $1800 base price. I’ll probably sit it out (for the bass), since the finish discounts aren’t tempting enough to make this doable.


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## spudmunkey

Being even with the base price makes it the best value in the run. Every other model is more than the base model. If you wanted metallic crackle, or color shift splatter, you're saving $400.

If that is make-or break, it's worth confirming, but that's how I understand it.


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

So 150 for any crackle. on top of the 1300. No thanks


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## spudmunkey

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> So 150 for any crackle. on top of the 1300. No thanks



What? No All but the color-shift crackle are included in the base price. The $1300 is $150 over the base price. That's what I meant, if that's what you're referring to.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> Being even with the base price makes it the best value in the run. Every other model is more than the base model. If you wanted metallic crackle, or color shift splatter, you're saving $400.
> 
> If that is make-or break, it's worth confirming, but that's how I understand it.



Yeah, it’s a good deal, but I am not particularly interested in the stage 1 finishes, so I should probably just do a regular build. I really want just an understated finish, given the craziness of the instrument itself. I actually tried to do a build on the app, but there’s no total until after you put in all your CC info, and I chickened our in case the “next” screen takes me into “no refunds” land.


----------



## Seabeast2000

So I thought SS frets were default these days? I noticed what look like a lot of spec builds in GIS that don't have them.


----------



## spudmunkey

The906 said:


> So I thought SS frets were default these days? I noticed what look like a lot of spec builds in GIS that don't have them.



You are probably just seeing mostly Jumbo, right? Medium Jumbo are standard, and they don't list the standard specs; only the upgrades. Kinda like how if it doesn't list a body or neck wood, you would assume it's the base alder body and maple neck.... not that they aren't wood.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> You are probably just seeing mostly Jumbo, right? Medium Jumbo are standard, and they don't list the standard specs; only the upgrades. Kinda like how if it doesn't list a body or neck wood, you would assume it's the base alder body and maple neck.... not that they aren't wood.



Several list "Stainless Med-Jumbo".

Doesn't seem to matter what the model is. There are Vaders, Theos, Crescents, CCTs, Osiris, SCBs, etc.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> Several list "Stainless Med-Jumbo".
> 
> Doesn't seem to matter what the model is. There are Vaders, Theos, Crescents, CCTs, Osiris, SCBs, etc.



You are exactly right. At1st thought that maybe these are older builds from before the change to standard stainless but, nope. Even the newest entry lists it.

Given historical accuracy of the in-stock store, I believe it's just more inconsistency than a shift away from stainless...but that's just a gut feeling.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> You are exactly right. At1st thought that maybe these are older builds from before the change to standard stainless but, nope. Even the newest entry lists it.
> 
> Given historical accuracy of the in-stock store, I believe it's just more inconsistency than a shift away from stainless...but that's just a gut feeling.



Aren't some of these returned/unpaid customer builds? Maybe some chose nickel silver frets.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> Aren't some of these returned/unpaid customer builds? Maybe some chose nickel silver frets.


 Some are, yes. But historically, the in stock store doesn't show the standard specs. It would not show Chrome hardware, for example, or a white pick guard on the delos. So if its listing stainless steel medium jumbo, I'm not exactly sure why that is even listed on a model which has that has its standard spec.

There's probably some hazy crossover between some older examples that are in the store from before the stainless steel switch, where nickel frets were the standard and would not have been listed… but there is a link to be able to sort by newest first, and the newest one at the top of the list shows stainless medium jumbo...which doesn't really make sense.

They do still have at least one, possibly two, models that come with nickel frets standard. The Andy James is one. I believe there is a second that I am forgetting about….


----------



## kisielk

I decided to jump on it and get one. I've been aching for an 8 string with a tremolo for a long time and this seems to be a good way to get one that's not a Kahler, and I'm not too keen of the aesthetics of the Schecter Hellraiser C-8. Ordered a Z8X with the colour fade splatter.. it's going to be my first Kiesel so it will be interesting to try one out. I played them at NAMM a few years back and was pretty impressed with the feel and construction.


----------



## spudmunkey

That's the finish I'm most excited to see finished up on a guitar.


----------



## Tuned

sorry if I'm misplacing this, but if I get it right there's no such thread in the 7str. division

I have heard or read that Kiesel don't offer Floyd Rose on 7-srings. Today I watched a factory tour (with Jeff and TTK) and then browsed through the site - of all the 7-strings with trems none had a FR. What's that, a statement? Like, really really no FR7 whatsoever? like, just when I started thinking a Kiesel?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Tuned said:


> sorry if I'm misplacing this, but if I get it right there's no such thread in the 7str. division
> 
> I have heard or read that Kiesel don't offer Floyd Rose on 7-srings. Today I watched a factory tour (with Jeff and TTK) and then browsed through the site - of all the 7-strings with trems none had a FR. What's that, a statement? Like, really really no FR7 whatsoever? like, just when I started thinking a Kiesel?


Only one they still put FRs on is the JB200 7 string afaik. There are floyd loaded kiesels floating around on reverb and ebay relatively regularly


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## Albake21

They stopped selling 7 strings with Floyd Roses last year. Jeff said they weren't selling enough of them and all of their artists preferred the Hipshot trem over the Floyd


----------



## kisielk

spudmunkey said:


> That's the finish I'm most excited to see finished up on a guitar.


I think it will really match my fusion aesthetic. It's a pretty unique looking finish in the photos so I hope it looks just as good in person!


----------



## spudmunkey

Tuned said:


> sorry if I'm misplacing this, but if I get it right there's no such thread in the 7str. division
> 
> I have heard or read that Kiesel don't offer Floyd Rose on 7-srings. Today I watched a factory tour (with Jeff and TTK) and then browsed through the site - of all the 7-strings with trems none had a FR. What's that, a statement? Like, really really no FR7 whatsoever? like, just when I started thinking a Kiesel?



While they use the OFR on 6-strings, when they offered 7-string "floyds", they never used the OFR due to the string spacing. They started with licensed trems (no word, AFAIK, on who made them). Then, they switched to the Original 1000 series, again, due to the string spacing.

The reasons that Kiesel have given publicly (which is all we can really go by outside of conjecture):

They were an imported-from-korea unit, and there were occasional quality issues.
They were an imported-from-korea unit, and Kiesel says they make an effort when possible to source US-made components for major components like bridges.
Their signature artists that would have maybe used a Floyd moved over to the Hipshot bridge.
They have made a concerted effort to streamline their operations. One of those ways is to reduce the number of individual CNC programs. By removing a bridge option, that dramatically cuts the number or programs. Having more programs reduced efficiency but also increases the possibility of errors.
Kiesel didn't see a very good ROI to re-design their guitars to work as well with the different string spacing of the OFR, the only Floyd they'd want to use...and they didn't want to make their guitars with this different string spacing, anyway.
Some other possibilities that they likely wouldn't share, but could also help explain, if true (but for which there's no evidence of):


Kiesel needed to commit to certain volume with Hipshot to retain their exclusive design modification or pricing, and the only real way to do that was to jettison the Floyd to reduce the number of trem options, so that anyone who wanted a trem would have to pick the Hipshot.
OK, so sure...there are lots of guitars with Floyds out there...but unless someone has access to their books, there really isn't a way to know if Kiesel's customers are buying that many 7-string Floyds. Perhaps they really didn't sell enough to their own customers to invest in minimum orders from suppliers, or to just survive the CNC program culling. While 7-string Floyds may account for 35% of all worldwide 7-string guitar sales, they might have only been 10% of Kiesel's, for example.

They also removed the Floyd as an option from the 6-string Carved-top models (the CT6/CS3/CS6) and the Solo...but then it _IS_ an option on their brand-spankinest-new Theos 6-string model...so at least it does appear that they aren't "anti-Floyd" except where it makes sense for them to be.



KnightBrolaire said:


> Only one they still put FRs on is the JB200 7 string afaik.



The 7-string JB207 has been discontinued since January, 2018. it was only around for a year, i think. That same month was hard for 7-string fans...also discontinued: X227, Ultra V7, DC727, HH7, and then the CT7 and SH7 in July of that year.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

The old licensed units from the Carvin days were Ping built, as per markings on the underside.


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## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> The old licensed units from the Carvin days were Ping built, as per markings on the underside.



Ahh, good to know. I know that was a rumor, but didn't know they were marked. I believe that's who made their old non-locking tuners, back when their locking option was Sperzel, too.

By most accounts, they seemed to be "better than average" for a licensed Floyd, and there was at least one person I remember from the forum who changed his DC727 or DC747 to an OFR and said it wasn't worth the effort as it wasn't _that_ much better to make up for the work needed and the cost.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> Ahh, good to know. I know that was a rumor, but didn't know they were marked. I believe that's who made their old non-locking tuners, back when their locking option was Sperzel, too.
> 
> By most accounts, they seemed to be "maybe a little better than average" for a licensed Floyd, and there was at least one person I remember from the forum who changed his DC727 or DC747 to an OFR and said it wasn't worth the effort as it wasn't _that_ much better to make up for the work needed and the cost.



They didn't say "Ping" on them, but the saddles had the same markings, and the underside of the baseplate had numbers in line with known Ping units. 

We'll probably never know 100%. 

You're right though, they really weren't bad.


----------



## Tuned

Whoa, that's a lot of information! Thanks a lot!


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

My 7 string floyd on a Carvin dc700 worked really well. I never really had any “if it it were a better quality floyd” freakouts. Worked as it needed to. That said, stupid move to nix 7 floyds. Many players prefer them.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Hipshot needs to make a locking trem is what needs to happen. 

It would be cool to have a quality competitor to FR.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> Hipshot needs to make a locking trem is what needs to happen.



"'Am I a joke to you?'
- Hipshot headless trem"
- spudmunkey, using Hipshot's headless trem as a joke


----------



## Albake21

MaxOfMetal said:


> Hipshot needs to make a locking trem is what needs to happen.
> 
> It would be cool to have a quality competitor to FR.


I'd be all on board for this. I'd love to see a more modern approach to the Floyd and feel like Hipshot would be the ones to nail it.


----------



## kisielk

Yeah I am kind of surprised there’s no 3rd party trem simile to a Lo Pro Edge. I love that low profile design, much better than the clunky design of a regular floyd with the screws all sticking up.


----------



## Albake21

kisielk said:


> Yeah I am kind of surprised there’s no 3rd party trem simile to a Lo Pro Edge. I love that low profile design, much better than the clunky design of a regular floyd with the screws all sticking up.


There kinda is. Floyd rose makes the Pro which I have on my MM JP16. It's pretty slim, much nicer than the normal Floyd.


----------



## c7spheres

Albake21 said:


> There kinda is. Floyd rose makes the Pro which I have on my MM JP16. It's pretty slim, much nicer than the normal Floyd.


 It also has narrower string spacing. I've been curious how they compare to a LoPro. They're a 1000 series in 7 string.


----------



## Albake21

c7spheres said:


> It also has narrower string spacing. I've been curious how they compare to a LoPro. They're a 1000 series in 7 string.


Sadly I can't comment on that since I've never owned a LoPro before, I've only briefly played a couple. But as someone who has owned many Edge and Edge Zeros, I have no complaints at all. Setting up the edge is a bit easier but as far as playing wise, it's equally as great.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

kisielk said:


> Yeah I am kind of surprised there’s no 3rd party trem simile to a Lo Pro Edge. I love that low profile design, much better than the clunky design of a regular floyd with the screws all sticking up.



There's Hantug, which makes super high end Lo-Pro units.



spudmunkey said:


> "'Am I a joke to you?'
> - Hipshot headless trem"
> - spudmunkey, using Hipshot's headless trem as a joke



Eh, those are really good for what they are, but they lack the feel of an FR. 

Plus, I don't see them throwing these on headed models anytime soon.


----------



## Hollowway

Yeah, I still prefer a Floyd to either the Hipshot or Kahler. At the moment, the only game in town for 8 string trems is the Kiesel headless. I have one I picked up second hand, and like it, but I have an Agile 827 with a Floyd and I just much prefer the feel on that. And Kahler’s are just a completely different animal, so it’s not even a fair comparison.


----------



## kisielk

There's also the Schecter C-8, or if you have money to burn, the Caparison Apple Horn 8 EF.


----------



## cardinal

To me each of the readily-available Floyd 8s has some spec(s) that I just can't deal with. The Agile 827FR inexplicably uses a Kahler-sized nut that puts the strings extremely close to the edges of the board. The Schecter scale is too long for me. And the Apple Horn has those true tempered frets or whatever they're called.

This 26.5" scaled Shredzilla seems to get the basic specs right for my preferences, but I'm sure different folks like different things.


----------



## trem licking

cardinal said:


> To me each of the readily-available Floyd 8s has some spec(s) that I just can't deal with. The Agile 827FR inexplicably uses a Kahler-sized nut that puts the strings extremely close to the edges of the board. The Schecter scale is too long for me. And the Apple Horn has those true tempered frets or whatever they're called.
> 
> This 26.5" scaled Shredzilla seems to get the basic specs right for my preferences, but I'm sure different folks like different things.



I totally agree on the agiles. I ordered and returned a couple of custom 8s with floyds due to issues with them and especially that cepheus nut. one of the nuts i received had a bent string retainer/V that limited string size installation ha. there are definitely some weird specs with the few that are out there. i love my schecter c8... it's actually the most tuning stable guitar i have out of all my floyded guitars, but i would have liked it to be 27" just because. excited for deez 'zillas


----------



## Hollowway

cardinal said:


> To me each of the readily-available Floyd 8s has some spec(s) that I just can't deal with. The Agile 827FR inexplicably uses a Kahler-sized nut that puts the strings extremely close to the edges of the board. The Schecter scale is too long for me. And the Apple Horn has those true tempered frets or whatever they're called.
> 
> This 26.5" scaled Shredzilla seems to get the basic specs right for my preferences, but I'm sure different folks like different things.


Huh, I didn't realize that about the Agiles. I'll have to check that out on mine. Mine is kind of a weird one, because the neck joint is different than the others, so I wonder if I have the same nut as you guys. Then again, I have some Kahler 8s, and TBH I haven't noticed the string spacing being tighter, so maybe I'm just an idiot. But I want to check the Agile when I get home, and see if the strings are close to the edge of the FB, because I HATE when that's the case. And I haven't noticed it yet.


----------



## cardinal

Hollowway said:


> Huh, I didn't realize that about the Agiles. I'll have to check that out on mine. Mine is kind of a weird one, because the neck joint is different than the others, so I wonder if I have the same nut as you guys. Then again, I have some Kahler 8s, and TBH I haven't noticed the string spacing being tighter, so maybe I'm just an idiot. But I want to check the Agile when I get home, and see if the strings are close to the edge of the FB, because I HATE when that's the case. And I haven't noticed it yet.



Oh no shouldn't have said anything; don't check! Just play and enjoy!


----------



## dasuchin

Anyone know what the option is that makes the bevel on the aries just a plain wood finish along with having a painted top? I ordered an aries about 7 weeks ago, came in this week, and the entire thing was painted. I thought that I had mentioned on the phone that I wanted the bevel to be just the antique ash wood finish, but I don't see anything denoting it on the order sheet. Probably my fault, but it'd be nice to know what that option is actually called.


----------



## spudmunkey

dasuchin said:


> Anyone know what the option is that makes the bevel on the aries just a plain wood finish along with having a painted top? I ordered an aries about 7 weeks ago, came in this week, and the entire thing was painted. I thought that I had mentioned on the phone that I wanted the bevel to be just the antique ash wood finish, but I don't see anything denoting it on the order sheet. Probably my fault, but it'd be nice to know what that option is actually called.



First question: does your guitar have a separate top wood? That will determine the answer of which exact options you'd need.

Also, any photos of what you received would also help. And feel free to post your spec sheet, to make sure they did build what was reflected on the sheet.


----------



## dasuchin

spudmunkey said:


> First question: does your guitar have a separate top wood? That will determine the answer of which exact options you'd need.
> 
> Also, any photos of what you received would also help. And feel free to post your spec sheet, to make sure they did build what was reflected on the sheet.


Yeah it has a separate top wood. This is my first order through them so I can definitely see if I ordered it wrong. I just thought I had mentioned the bevel being the natural finish, but not sure what that option is.


----------



## Albake21

dasuchin said:


> Yeah it has a separate top wood. This is my first order through them so I can definitely see if I ordered it wrong. I just thought I had mentioned the bevel being the natural finish, but not sure what that option is.


A bit off topic from your question, but that looks 10x better than if it showed the antique ash. Just my


----------



## dasuchin

Albake21 said:


> A bit off topic from your question, but that looks 10x better than if it showed the antique ash. Just my


Kinda what I'm struggling with. It still looks great, it plays great. But after expecting it one way and opening the case to see it another way is leaving me feeling like I didn't get what I want. I don't know if it really plays any better than what else I've got, so I'm torn on sending it back or not.


----------



## Albake21

dasuchin said:


> Kinda what I'm struggling with. It still looks great, it plays great. But after expecting it one way and opening the case to see it another way is leaving me feeling like I didn't get what I want. I don't know if it really plays any better than what else I've got, so I'm torn on sending it back or not.


I mean it truly looks amazing the way it is. I definitely understand where you are coming from though. The choice that was needed to show the antique ash was "RNC - Rear of Body Natural Clear (Must Have Top Wood)". Whether that was on you for not choosing that or for Kiesel not putting it down is up to how ever the transaction went. When I've ordered my Kiesels, I always got confirmation through email with my spec sheet before calling to actually place the order.


----------



## dasuchin

Albake21 said:


> I mean it truly looks amazing the way it is. I definitely understand where you are coming from though. The choice that was needed to show the antique ash was "RNC - Rear of Body Natural Clear (Must Have Top Wood)". Whether that was on you for not choosing that or for Kiesel not putting it down is up to how ever the transaction went. When I've ordered my Kiesels, I always got confirmation through email with my spec sheet before calling to actually place the order.


Yeah I got confirmation as well and just went ahead with it, assuming that sense I asked about the option, it was there. Like I said, first time ordering so I wasn't sure what the option name is. Definitely on me. Now for the hard decision.


----------



## spudmunkey

dasuchin said:


> Yeah it has a separate top wood. This is my first order through them so I can definitely see if I ordered it wrong. I just thought I had mentioned the bevel being the natural finish, but not sure what that option is.



Got it. OK, so at least they built it to the specs on the sheet. 

If you wanted just ash to be clear with AAT, you would have also had the "RNC" finish, for "Rear Natural Clear", in addition to the AAT and the ash wood upgrades.






If you also wanted the edge of the flamed maple top to be the same darkened clear, you'd add "DBBEB" (for "Deep-finished Body binding Effect Bevel")





FWIW, I also prefer yours in all-purple, but both are cool.


----------



## dasuchin

spudmunkey said:


> Got it. OK, so at least they built it to the specs on the sheet.
> 
> If you wanted just ash to be clear with AAT, you would have also had the "RNC" finish, for "Rear Natural Clear", in addition to the AAT and the ash wood upgrades.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you also wanted the edge of the flamed maple top to be the same darkened clear, you'd add "DBBEB" (for "Deep-finished Body binding Effect Bevel")
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FWIW, I also prefer yours in all-purple, but both are cool.


Yeah I mean seeing that, I think it looks better all purple. I like the burl and AAT better, but didn't want to shell out the money and have it be non-refundable on the first go around.


----------



## spudmunkey

A "virtual builder" could/would have eliminated any confusion. I get why they don't (expensive to make, expensive to up-keep, and the ROI is probably too low, since they are almost at peak capacity of where they want to be), but it sure would make life a lot easier, and answer so many simple questions.

I'm, like, 6 months away from just throwing up my hands and looking into making an updated "carvin museum" page myself, for Kiesel era info, and make my own reference guides for things. 

...but I know that either a) that's just what they are hoping for...someone else to do it, or b) would shut it down with a cease-and-desist if i used any of their photos or company name/logo.


----------



## spudmunkey

A handfull of free options for "black friday". Not quite as rockin' as that Delos run from a few months ago, but if you were going with all of these options anyways, you'd be saving, like, $400+.

Free 3-piece maple neck upgrade, or free roasted maple neck upgrade
Free body chambering (with purchase of a top)
Free royal ebony upgrade
Free fretboard radius and neck thickness options
Free "antique ash" finish if you're already getting an ash body or top
Free tung oiled neck finish (it's already standard on bolt-ons, so this is primarily for set necks and neck-throughs)

poplar burl and buckeye burl tops, and sparkle/metal flake finishes are also $200 off (normally $400/$600/$600, respectively)

None of that is what I had in mind for my next one, though, so this sale doesn't benefit me at all. 

Also, the price increase they've been hinting at for 6 moths is looking like 1/1/20.

Most in-stocks are also on sale.


----------



## kisielk

Really tempted to put together an HH2 now. I've been eyeing one for years but never got to ordering. The free roasted neck, chambering, royal ebony, and tung oiled neck would save me a fair bit though.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> A handfull of free options for "black friday". Not quite as rockin' as that Delos run from a few months ago, but if you were going with all of these options anyways, you'd be saving, like, $400+.
> 
> Free 3-piece maple neck upgrade, or free roasted maple neck upgrade
> Free body chambering (with purchase of a top)
> Free royal ebony upgrade
> Free fretboard radius and neck thickness options
> Free "antique ash" finish if you're already getting an ash body or top
> Free tung oiled neck finish (it's already standard on bolt-ons, so this is primarily for set necks and neck-throughs)
> 
> poplar burl and buckeye burl tops, and sparkle/metal flake finishes are also $200 off (normally $400/$600/$600, respectively)
> 
> None of that is what I had in mind for my next one, though, so this sale doesn't benefit me at all.
> 
> Also, the price increase they've been hinting at for 6 moths is looking like 1/1/20.
> 
> Most in-stocks are also on sale.



i'm sorry but Jeff needs to get a clue and gtfo of california. Taxes keep going up and because of that Kiesels are getting out of control in their pricing as well. Are they still cheaper than a lot of other custom shops (i.e. Sully Guitars)? Sure, but the prices keep inflating due to the California situation. Had he decided to leave the state, he could have saved MILLIONS on the building and kept prices the way they were. He's pricing too many people out of the market. Hell, I wont buy a Kiesel because of the prices now. I'd rather just buy a beater Ibanez RG and repaint it or something.


----------



## ramses

MatiasTolkki said:


> i'm sorry but Jeff needs to get a clue and gtfo of california. Taxes keep going up ...



Fender and Suhr are still here. So, I have to assume that the cost of moving and losing whatever benefit CA offers are still higher than the tax increase nonsense.


----------



## technomancer

MatiasTolkki said:


> i'm sorry but Jeff needs to get a clue and gtfo of california. Taxes keep going up and because of that Kiesels are getting out of control in their pricing as well. Are they still cheaper than a lot of other custom shops (i.e. Sully Guitars)? Sure, but the prices keep inflating due to the California situation. Had he decided to leave the state, he could have saved MILLIONS on the building and kept prices the way they were. He's pricing too many people out of the market. Hell, I wont buy a Kiesel because of the prices now. I'd rather just buy a beater Ibanez RG and repaint it or something.



Given they've pretty much increased prices every year since he took over did it occur to you that the CA thing is a convenient excuse to continue to raise prices as they climb out of the budget guitar category?


----------



## c7spheres

technomancer said:


> Given they've pretty much increased prices every year since he took over did it occur to you that the CA thing is a convenient excuse to continue to raise prices as they climb out of the budget guitar category?



I was thinking the same thing. That would be cool if they came out with a 7 string with the 6 sring Becker version headstock, like on the old Carvins. I like it more than the new headstocks.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

technomancer said:


> Given they've pretty much increased prices every year since he took over did it occur to you that the CA thing is a convenient excuse to continue to raise prices as they climb out of the budget guitar category?



Its a fact of the california economy. It's why so many people are moving away and so many businesses are moving away. Jeff COULD be using it as an excuse to increase prices more than he would have, but the fact that it has gone on every single year, and it's pricing a LOT of people out of the brand compared to 5 years ago is a bad sign. Carvin was revered for affordable semi-custom guitars, thats something they arent anymore.


----------



## lurè

Damn I might pull the trigger for a VM7 build but the hardest part is always the color choice.


----------



## technomancer

MatiasTolkki said:


> Its a fact of the california economy. It's why so many people are moving away and so many businesses are moving away. Jeff COULD be using it as an excuse to increase prices more than he would have, but the fact that it has gone on every single year, and it's pricing a LOT of people out of the brand compared to 5 years ago is a bad sign. Carvin was revered for affordable semi-custom guitars, thats something they arent anymore.



So that's a no then


----------



## Albake21

I spec'd out a DC600 yesterday with these "Black Friday" deals and damn was it actually a nice price. All of the free options are pretty much what I'd upgrade to so the price is pretty close to stock price for me. Oh choices...


----------



## Jeff

MatiasTolkki said:


> i'm sorry but Jeff needs to get a clue and gtfo of california. Taxes keep going up and because of that Kiesels are getting out of control in their pricing as well. Are they still cheaper than a lot of other custom shops (i.e. Sully Guitars)? Sure, but the prices keep inflating due to the California situation. Had he decided to leave the state, he could have saved MILLIONS on the building and kept prices the way they were. He's pricing too many people out of the market. Hell, I wont buy a Kiesel because of the prices now. I'd rather just buy a beater Ibanez RG and repaint it or something.



It’s going to be the same answer as what John Suhr gave on ToneTalk; I bet Jeff doesn’t want to uproot his staff on their families, risk losing people, etc. plus, I’m guessing that living in one of the most perfect environments in the world may have something to do with it too.


----------



## MSS

Ordered a Vader 7. Could not resist the Black Friday deals! $1786 out the door. I didn’t realize u get charged for supplying your own pups. Live and learn on that one...


AMOUNT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
V7 7 STR VADER HEADLESS 1 _____ _____ 1,299.00 1,299.00
MAH CLEAR MAPLE NECK/MAHOGANY 1 _____ _____ 50.00 50.00
PBT POPLAR BURL TOP 1 _____ _____ 250.00 250.00
TOB TRANS ORANGE BURST 1 _____ _____ 40.00 40.00
BST BLACKBURST EDGES 1 _____ _____ 40.00 40.00
thin black burst edges,
RNC REAR BODY/NECK NATURAL CLE 1 _____ _____ 50.00 50.00
RMN ROASTED MAPLE NECK 1 _____ _____ .00 .00
TN TUNG OIL FINISH BACK OF NE 1 _____ _____ .00 .00
REF ROYAL EBONY FRETBOARD 1 _____ _____ .00 .00
NIN NO TOP INLAYS-SIDE DOTS ON 1 _____ _____ .00 .00
STF STAINLESS STEEL FRETS 1 _____ _____ .00 .00
UCP USE CUSTOMER'S PICKUPS 1 _____ _____ 50.00 50.00
UCS USE CUSTOMER'S STRINGS 1 _____ _____ .00 .00
BL BLACK LOGO 1 _____ _____ .00 .00
SL STRAPLOCKS BY DUNLOP INSTA 1 _____ _____ 20.00 20.00
SC9 ULTIMATE SOFT HEADLESS GUI 1 _____ _____ 60.00 60.00


----------



## bassplayer8

Gas'ing hard for a zeus for a graduation present for myself. I was wanting one with a black limbabody/maple neck/maple fretboard but thinking if I should opt for the free upgrades (roasted maple neck + royal ebony board). I'm looking to keep it a simple build and worried the black limba body and royal ebony board may look to busy :S


----------



## spudmunkey

Black limba + royal ebony


----------



## c7spheres

bassplayer8 said:


> Gas'ing hard for a zeus for a graduation present for myself. I was wanting one with a black limbabody/maple neck/maple fretboard but thinking if I should opt for the free upgrades (roasted maple neck + royal ebony board). I'm looking to keep it a simple build and worried the black limba body and royal ebony board may look to busy :S


 Sounds like a good combo to me. I'd go for that over roasted personally.


----------



## bassplayer8

spudmunkey said:


> Black limba + royal ebony
> 
> View attachment 74671



Thank you for linking this! Solidified my decision on not going for the royal ebony board for sure cause having both is def gonna be loking too busy for me. Gonna go for the normal maple/black limba combo.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Thinking about a Delos 7. With the free options its almost impossible to find somethign comparable in the 7 string maket. The closet thing is the Charvel NOVA but the guitar I have specced out is only 1179 and that is with a metallic finish


----------



## spudmunkey

Last call on the Jason Becker-themed Osiris. When it was launched, they said they'd only make 100. They said they just took the last order today, so the only ones left are in the in-stock store:


https://www.kieselguitars.com/guitars-in-stock/142709
https://www.kieselguitars.com/guitars-in-stock/142737
https://www.kieselguitars.com/guitars-in-stock/142738
https://www.kieselguitars.com/guitars-in-stock/142746
https://www.kieselguitars.com/guitars-in-stock/142891


----------



## BigViolin

Think it's odd they did these with 14" radius, if they were 20" with the normal neck I'd be tempted.


----------



## spudmunkey

I imagine because 14" is normal on their "normal" JB Numbers guitar.


----------



## NoodleFace

NGD for me. There's no 7 string thread and I don't want to make a NGD thread. Absolutely hands down best guitar I've ever played


----------



## Seabeast2000

So what is the type/design of the Kiesel 7 string singles? I'm assuming they are a 7 version of one of their 6es?


----------



## spudmunkey

The906 said:


> So what is the type/design of the Kiesel 7 string singles? I'm assuming they are a 7 version of one of their 6es?



The ones in the photo are EMG's. They have 7-string singles of their Lithiums, for sure, and i think Berylliums. They *might* have their old A13.


----------



## NoodleFace

He did ship.the lithium set with the guitar but I can't imagine I'll use them


----------



## lurè

Do you guys have any experience with the Holdsworth pickup set and how would you compare It to the lithiums?

I've ordered a VM7 with the KH set and was looking for reviews.
For what I've seen on demos they seems more well rounded and less treble-focused then the lithiums.


----------



## Seabeast2000

spudmunkey said:


> The ones in the photo are EMG's. They have 7-string singles of their Lithiums, for sure, and i think Berylliums. They *might* have their old A13.


Asking for a friend who juuussst bought an sss 7.

So going through the builder they only show Lithium 7 singles for the SSS option at least. But maybe there are others on the secret menu/phone call.


----------



## NoodleFace

The906 said:


> Asking for a friend who juuussst bought an sss 7.
> 
> So going through the builder they only show Lithium 7 singles for the SSS option at least. But maybe there are others on the secret menu/phone call.


Yeah I would assume so. When I get home I'll take them out and show you what I got


----------



## spudmunkey

"New model" coming tomorrow morning, but based on the low-key, short-term teaser, and how were not near NAMM, I'm expecting it to just be something like an options package for the Delos for Frank Gambale (a similar sort of thing they did for their Cam Liddell model), or maaaaaaybe a multiscale headless version of the Vader or Osiris basses.


----------



## NoodleFace

Stupid question but these Floyd roses like on mine, are they OFR 7s or something different?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

NoodleFace said:


> Stupid question but these Floyd roses like on mine, are they OFR 7s or something different?



They are the Korean made 1000 series. 

Same materials as a German Schaller made unit, just cheaper (and with different string spacing).


----------



## cardinal

1000 also has a flatter nut radius. I think the OFR7 is 10", so unless it's a compound radius, a lot of these guitars are better off with the 1000 nut, which I think is 15"? Makes a big difference. I've struggled to get some guitars set up before I realized what was going on.


----------



## kisielk

I'm like this >>><<< close to ordering an HH2, even though they're still building my Zeus... if I wasn't so indecisive about colour I probably would have done it already.


----------



## NoodleFace

MaxOfMetal said:


> They are the Korean made 1000 series.
> 
> Same materials as a German Schaller made unit, just cheaper (and with different string spacing).





cardinal said:


> 1000 also has a flatter nut radius. I think the OFR7 is 10", so unless it's a compound radius, a lot of these guitars are better off with the 1000 nut, which I think is 15"? Makes a big difference. I've struggled to get some guitars set up before I realized what was going on.



Ah cool,.thanks! Can definitely tell.the flatter nut radius 
Ah cool thanks. You


----------



## Seabeast2000

Another rando question, anyone know what type of nut does Kiesel use with the Hipshot trem installs?


----------



## lurè




----------



## lurè

Good job me placing an order one week ago


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Seriously. They are really trying to tempt me to break my 1 year of no guitar buying


----------



## cardinal

Sure, why not. https://www.kieselguitars.com/type-x/

I don't hate it, but couldn't imagine buying it over the Vader.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I *hate* X/Star shapes with the longest horn pointing to the floor. Nope nope nope. 

This is truly the year for those designs though. Between Balaguer, BCR, and now this, we went from 0 to 60 in like a month and a half.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

I'd like it more if it was just a traditional star shape but headless.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

I think it’s cool. But I would still go vader or zeus over it.


----------



## Frostbite

That thing is awful looking lmao. It's like no thought went into the bigger horn placement at all.


----------



## I play music

That thing looks funny!
But my first thought actually was that I think you can neither put this in a rack guitar stand nor in a guitar hanger (because headless)


----------



## Albake21

I play music said:


> That thing looks funny!
> But my first thought actually was that I think you can neither put this in a rack guitar stand nor in a guitar hanger (because headless)


Weirdly they have them hanging on the wall by the bridge, but how the hell does that work if the bridge is a trem lol.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Albake21 said:


> Weirdly they have them hanging on the wall by the bridge, but how the hell does that work if the bridge is a trem lol.



It's probably a wall mounted stand like this:


----------



## StevenC

I don't know how to feel about this. 

On the one hand, it's a keisel. 
On the other hand the straight version looks alright. 
On the other hand the fanned version is the Kieseliest thing I've ever seen and hurts my eyes.


----------



## lurè

the 8 string version looks a bit goofy but I dig the 6 and 7 string


----------



## Albake21

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's probably a wall mounted stand like this:


Right, but in the picture above, one of those legs is holding up the guitar by the bridge.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Just to note. This is neck through so you can remove neck pickup. Single pickup star shaped headless


----------



## gunshow86de




----------



## xzacx

KnightBrolaire said:


> I'd like it more if it was just a traditional star shape but headless.



I agree that would be better, but the flat end where the headstock is chopped off is just never going to look all the way right with the four other pointy ends.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

xzacx said:


> I agree that would be better, but the flat end where the headstock is chopped off is just never going to look all the way right with the four other pointy ends.


yeah, it needs a pointy end of the neck.


----------



## olejason

David Koresh approves


----------



## trem licking

am not gonna buy, but i kinda dig this new shape. mistake making the 8 multiscale only though.


----------



## Politics of Ecstasy

OOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHH

CARVIN = KIESEL ???

I cant beleive i didnt know they changed their name...why? Carvin is way cooler than Kiesel...


----------



## Albake21

Politics of Ecstasy said:


> OOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHH
> 
> CARVIN = KIESEL ???
> 
> I cant beleive i didnt know they changed their name...why? Carvin is way cooler than Kiesel...


The two companies split and Jeff wanted to honor his Grandfather and family name. The business actually started out as Kiesel, but his Grandfather had to change the name I believe due to legal reasons. Now it's back to it's original name.


----------



## Politics of Ecstasy

Thank you Albake


----------



## spudmunkey

trem licking said:


> am not gonna buy, but i kinda dig this new shape. mistake making the 8 multiscale only though.



When they 1st started releasing 8 strings and multi scales, they used to do both… but over time, for whatever reason, their customers just don't buy many of the straight scale 8 strings, so ever since about the SCB8, they have stopped to coming out with straight scale 8 strings for new models.


----------



## Politics of Ecstasy

spudmunkey said:


> When they 1st started releasing 8 strings and multi scales, they used to do both… but over time, for whatever reason, their customers just don't buy many of the straight scale 8 strings, so ever since about the SCB8, they have stopped to coming out with straight scale 8 strings for new models.


And the only one i want is the pink SCB8 with Floyd/Fishman


----------



## spudmunkey

Politics of Ecstasy said:


> Carvin is way cooler than Kiesel...



Carvin is CARson and gaVIN Kiesel. They no longer have anything to do with the guitars, so they split off and changed to a name that relates to the people actually running the company.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

Not a huge fan of the new shape. I really don't like offset V type things. Mostly because they go in stands/lean against walls at a weird angle. No headstock means you need one of those wall hangers that holds the neck and body, which takes up stupid space and ruins the convenience of having your guitar in a stand. Oddly enough, it has me gassing pretty hard for a Vader 7, though. No bigger regret as far as selling gear goes than selling my Vader.


----------



## Politics of Ecstasy

spudmunkey said:


> Carvin is CARson and gaVIN Kiesel. They no longer have anything to do with the guitars, so they split off and changed to a name that relates to the people actually running the company.


Thx spud


----------



## Jeff

cardinal said:


> Sure, why not. https://www.kieselguitars.com/type-x/
> 
> I don't hate it, but couldn't imagine buying it over the Vader.



well that’s hideous.


----------



## TheFashel12

There's something strange going on with a specific guitar in Kiesel's IN STOCK section. Specifically, this guitar: https://www.kieselguitars.com/guitars-in-stock/140852
This EXACT same guitar can be seen in this video from over a month ago: 

Is Kiesel reselling a used endorser guitar as a new instrument??


----------



## kisielk

TheFashel12 said:


> There's something strange going on with a specific guitar in Kiesel's IN STOCK section. Specifically, this guitar: https://www.kieselguitars.com/guitars-in-stock/140852
> This EXACT same guitar can be seen in this video from over a month ago:
> 
> Is Kiesel reselling a used endorser guitar as a new instrument??



I always assumed most of the in stock instruments were demos or customer returns. They are usually discounted compared to building the same specs yourself. Right now the discount is even bigger than normal because of the Black Friday sale.


----------



## Bdtunn

Dammit I usually don’t drool over kiesel but that x is, what to the keisel followers say....rad!!


----------



## gunshow86de

I don't hate it, but having the lower leg longer with the lower horn shorter makes it seem uncomfortable to play seated (I'm a righty that puts the guitar on my left leg).


----------



## NickS

Nope.

The shape sucks, and I hate (almost all) headless guitars.


----------



## technomancer

As with all of the Kiesel X and V guitars they need to flip the lower two horns... lower horn should never be longer than the upper on the bottom of the guitar, it just doesn't look right  

Flip those and I would love this.


----------



## Hollowway

MaxOfMetal said:


> I *hate* X/Star shapes with the longest horn pointing to the floor. Nope nope nope.



Well, technically the upper horn was the longest, but Jeff beveled it off.


----------



## gunshow86de

Hollowway said:


> Well, technically the upper horn was the longest, but Jeff beveled it off.


----------



## spudmunkey

‍ to me, the longer lower horns always made the most sense, in terms of balance. In my head it acts like the keel of a ship or something. To me, when played standing, Kiesel's UltraV is my favorite-lookong V shape. I dont play in classical position, so that aspect wouldn't effect me. I have never cared for the V220 or X220, though.

Also not hot in the new model, but I think this should appease 80+% of the people asking for a "headless V220"...which, suprisingly, exist. The only ones it wont would be those degenerates who would expect the body to be the same full size.


----------



## spudmunkey




----------



## vortex_infinium

Kiesel is so frustrating. IMO they have so much potential to make gorgeous guitars, then it's like Jeff rolls in like a kiddo with his first wood working kit and goes to town on them...

There's something about this design that's so goofy I can _almost_ see myself wearing it as high up as possible while playing hair metal. But on the bright side as someone who never really liked X shapes specifically because of how most headstock designs pair with the body, my interest in headless Xs is now peaked.

I saw that pink one like:


----------



## pfizer

I was really hoping we'd get a headless Vanquish instead.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

pfizer said:


> I was really hoping we'd get a headless Vanquish instead.




Now that I would buy. I loved the Vanquish body


----------



## KnightBrolaire

pfizer said:


> I was really hoping we'd get a headless Vanquish instead.


Yeah because they really need another misshapen headless strat type shape in their lineup besides the osiris and letchford


----------



## LeviathanKiller

I feel like the Vanquish was weird from the start and should have started as a headless model to begin with.


----------



## Hollowway

I will agree that the designs leave much to be desired. The craftsmanship, paint, fretwork, etc. are amazing. But, the designs are nowhere near the level of Skervesen, Padalka, etc. If they had someone doing stuff like that I'd be buying Kiesels left and right.


----------



## SlamLiguez

I'd enjoy it a lot more if it were pointer. It looks like a safety version of the real thing.


----------



## Hollowway

SlamLiguez said:


> I'd enjoy it a lot more if it were pointer. It looks like a safety version of the real thing.



You're not wrong:


----------



## KnightBrolaire

man if the new xtype headless was shaped more like this, I would buy a pile of them.


----------



## Jeff

spudmunkey said:


> When they 1st started releasing 8 strings and multi scales, they used to do both… but over time, for whatever reason, their customers just don't buy many of the straight scale 8 strings, so ever since about the SCB8, they have stopped to coming out with straight scale 8 strings for new models.



I’ve never tried a straight scale 8 that A. intonated well or B. sounded right on both the high and low strings anyway.


----------



## Hollowway

Jeff said:


> I’ve never tried a straight scale 8 that A. intonated well or B. sounded right on both the high and low strings anyway.



I've personally got no problem with multiscale 8s, but that means no more trems (from Kiesel) on 8s. If they'd do a multiscale with the parallel fret at the trem, or develop a multiscale trem, straight scale 8s could be a thing of the past. But, for us 8 string players, straight scale is the only way to get a trem.


----------



## Empryrean

LeviathanKiller said:


> I feel like the Vanquish was weird from the start and should have started as a headless model to begin with.


aint the Vanquish shape literally just a Washburn Sonic?


----------



## spudmunkey

Empryrean said:


> aint the Vanquish shape literally just a Washburn Sonic?


 ...no?


----------



## Seabeast2000

I like the vanquish and want one.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

The906 said:


> I like the vanquish and want one.



Yeah, I don't get the hate.

It's probably my favorite Kiesel shape, besides the Zeus.


----------



## Jonathan20022

My roommate showed me the Jared Dines X unboxing and it had the most sarcastic "stop sending me more of this crap, it's taking too much space" tone of voice 

Bold move either way, I've never liked their extreme shapes.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Hm I have an idea. What if you took a Warmoth Star body and made it headless somehow? Could carve down the wood so the bridge could be in line. Kind of like they do on their osiris but in theory obviously. No stupid bevels


----------



## cardinal

I like the Vanquish, Delos and Theos. The Solo looks good too. 

They have some clunkers, and I wish they did straight 8s on those shapes. But if I were going to get a workhorse 7, one of those Kiesels would be pretty sweet.


----------



## Empryrean

spudmunkey said:


> ...no?
> 
> View attachment 74901


huh, it definitely looked more similar in my head. not that it's a bad thing at all, thanks for finding a vanquish of the same color to compare.. i want one


----------



## KnightBrolaire

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Hm I have an idea. What if you took a Warmoth Star body and made it headless somehow? Could carve down the wood so the bridge could be in line. Kind of like they do on their osiris but in theory obviously. No stupid bevels


wouldn't be that hard to slap some headless tuners on a star body. I've been thinking about doing the same thing tbh, but the limiting factor is the neck. You'd either have to get a cheapo neck with floyd nuts that you're willing to chop the headstock off, or you'd have to find someone that can make you one.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

KnightBrolaire said:


> wouldn't be that hard to slap some headless tuners on a star body. I've been thinking about doing the same thing tbh, but the limiting factor is the neck. You'd either have to get a cheapo neck with floyd nuts that you're willing to chop the headstock off, or you'd have to find someone that can make you one.



Well when I was pricing hipshot headless hardware, you can get the headpiece. I think I have a local lutheir who would make me a neck just not sure his pricing.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Well when I was pricing hipshot headless hardware, you can get the headpiece. I think I have a local lutheir who would make me a neck just not sure his pricing.


yeah but if you didn't want to buy the headpiece, a floyd nut would work just fine and it'd be cheaper.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

KnightBrolaire said:


> yeah but if you didn't want to buy the headpiece, a floyd nut would work just fine and it'd be cheaper.



Thanks dude. No I need to find a cheaper neck for sale to butcher


----------



## MaxOfMetal

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Thanks dude. No I need to find a cheaper neck for sale to butcher



Keep an eye on Stratosphere. Just about everything bolt-on is Warmoth compatible and dirt cheap.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

MaxOfMetal said:


> Keep an eye on Stratosphere. Just about everything bolt-on is Warmoth compatible and dirt cheap.



Hell yeah. My goal is to build a headless star with a single pickup


----------



## MaxOfMetal

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Hell yeah. My goal is to build a headless star with a single pickup



I've grabbed Charvel and Fender necks from Stratosphere for <$100 shipped. When something goes on sale, grab it fast! 

I think they have some Black Friday/Cyber Monday stuff planned.


----------



## Jeff

MaxOfMetal said:


> Keep an eye on Stratosphere. Just about everything bolt-on is Warmoth compatible and dirt cheap.



+1. Great way to build a cheap strat is to buy a loaded body from there, and then get a snazzy neck from Warmoth's in-stock section.


----------



## kisielk

Welp, just ordered an HH2X... it's been my dream guitar for years and the available options on the black friday sale really match what I would love to have in a custom instrument. I had some old PDFs kicking around that had similar specs but almost $5-600 more than I can get them for now. With the planned price increases for 2020 I figure now's as good of time as any to snatch one up.


----------



## Pat

SlamLiguez said:


> I'd enjoy it a lot more if it were pointer. It looks like a safety version of the real thing.


I actually prefer that it has more rounded edges - think it translates well to other styles. It looks super comfortable to play in this video:


----------



## narad




----------



## Pat

narad said:


>


crikey you really changed my mind


----------



## Cynicanal

I loved this shape until Ditto. Fuck you, @narad!


----------



## NoodleFace

Shape actually grew on me but I can't do headless. I hate the headless craze.


----------



## Fred the Shred

I actually don't dislike the new X shape, and it actually has the bonus of not being humongous and fitting a normal guitar bag, which is of course impossible for the "normal" X shapes. I am only concerned, like with most of the more radical shapes, with the balance when strapped, which should be fine in theory, yet isn't out of the woods when it comes to neck dive.


----------



## Viginez

it is basically a mini v220, i don't get the hate.
the shape was always there, the concept being offset on purpose, not just another x...
that said, i don't care for the brand itself.
the v/x is the only shape i like.


----------



## cardinal

narad said:


>



If I had money to burn, I would totally rock that guitar in pink with a smiley face on that top rear wing.


----------



## spudmunkey

Fred the Shred said:


> I actually don't dislike the new X shape, and it actually has the bonus of not being humongous and fitting a normal guitar bag, which is of course impossible for the "normal" X shapes. I am only concerned, like with most of the more radical shapes, with the balance when strapped, which should be fine in theory, yet isn't out of the woods when it comes to neck dive.



One of the reasons for the "upside down" shape of the V220 and this model is so that there is a longer horn on the bass side of the neck, to act a little more of like a double cut than a single cut. That should help quite a Ut. Then, most of the weight of the body is on the bottom half, in my mind acting a little bit like the Keel of a ship. I don't recall ever hearing anyone complain about balance of that model, but I have not used one personally.


----------



## Hollowway

narad said:


>


Now I want the guitar more. That's the cutest amorphous blob I've ever seen!


----------



## Fred the Shred

spudmunkey said:


> One of the reasons for the "upside down" shape of the V220 and this model is so that there is a longer horn on the bass side of the neck, to act a little more of like a double cut than a single cut. That should help quite a Ut. Then, most of the weight of the body is on the bottom half, in my mind acting a little bit like the Keel of a ship. I don't recall ever hearing anyone complain about balance of that model, but I have not used one personally.



The OG V220 could be on the neck heavy side, but the ommission of a headstock can be enough to tip the scale there, even discounting the differences in weight distribution from wood choices and whatnot. I like it, actually.


----------



## StevenC

cardinal said:


> If I had money to burn, I would totally rock that guitar in pink with a smiley face on that top rear wing.





Hollowway said:


> Now I want the guitar more. That's the cutest amorphous blob I've ever seen!



You guys are old


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Hollowway said:


> Now I want the guitar more. That's the cutest amorphous blob I've ever seen!








it works in multiple ways lol


----------



## Hollowway

StevenC said:


> You guys are old


It’s true. I’m I’m my Cuddling Cute Guitars and Searching for Baby Yoda Memes phase.


----------



## Jeff

Hollowway said:


> It’s true. I’m I’m my Cuddling Cute Guitars and Searching for Baby Yoda Memes phase.



I love baby Yoda more than this new Kiesel guitar. I feel as though the Mandalorian would vaporize the Kiesel.


----------



## Hollowway

Jeff said:


> I love baby Yoda more than this new Kiesel guitar. I feel as though the Mandalorian would vaporize the Kiesel.



For sure. Jeff would no sooner get out a, “Bro...” before he’d be shot with a blaster.


----------



## spudmunkey

Finalizing the last couple things with sales, but basically, come Monday...I'll have ordered the SH6 I've been plotting for, like, 2 years. This will be Carvin/Kiesel #4, and 3rd custom build (one of them was bought on craigslist).


----------



## kisielk

Nice. I'd love to get an SH6 or SH550 (not quite sure which one yet!)


----------



## spudmunkey

The SH6 is the same overall thickness, so I feel like it'll retain most of the SH550's semi-hollowness, even though the edges of the body are thinner. I haven't played either, so my hunch may be 100% inaccurate. I already know that the SH550 isn't going to be anything like any bent-ply semi-hollow, and is even smaller and sounds less "hollow" than the already small-ish ES-339... I feel like I've got a realistic, low-energy expectation of the hollow-ness. 

Function-wise, I'm going with Beryllium pickups, piezo, satin clear neck (gloss body), stoptail bridge.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Hey @spudmunkey , do you know what Kiesel does with their 5way SSS switching? I don't think its standard strat style so that's why I'm asking (also couldn't find anything out by way of electronic information highway).


----------



## spudmunkey

The906 said:


> Hey @spudmunkey , do you know what Kiesel does with their 5way SSS switching? I don't think its standard strat style so that's why I'm asking (also couldn't find anything out by way of electronic information highway).



I believe it's still the same as what they have in their Kit of the Bolt, which is SSS standard. This is from the assembly instructions:


----------



## BigViolin

spudmunkey said:


> Finalizing the last couple things with sales, but basically, come Monday...I'll have ordered the SH6 I've been plotting for, like, 2 years. This will be Carvin/Kiesel #4, and 3rd custom build (one of them was bought on craigslist).



Did they ever mention how long the black friday specials will run? Hoping to order tomorrow as well.


----------



## spudmunkey

BigViolin said:


> Did they ever mention how long the black friday specials will run? Hoping to order tomorrow as well.



No, I dont know when that ends.


----------



## Mboogie7

Question for all of you Kiesel owners. When you placed your order, did you do it via phone or did you do it through the online builder? 

I’m planning on placing an order soon, and am looking for some feedback on the actual process. 

cheers!


----------



## Cynicanal

I strongly recommend doing it via phone. If nothing else, being able to set up a UCS option so it comes set up the way you want is incredibly valuable.


----------



## spudmunkey

Mboogie7 said:


> Question for all of you Kiesel owners. When you placed your order, did you do it via phone or did you do it through the online builder?
> 
> I’m planning on placing an order soon, and am looking for some feedback on the actual process.
> 
> cheers!



Unless you are INTIMATELY familiar with the online builder and the available options, call.

I ordered my first one online in 2008, and recommended that process for years after. I can no longer recommend it. With them expanding their options, the structure of the "old" builder has trouble keeping up. It's too easy to accidentally pick conflicting options*, add unessesary options so that you get charged twice**, or you might misunderstand just how an option might work on your specific build since some of them depend on all sorts of other options***. And finally, their "no pressure" (sometimes to a fault...some people take their laid-back attitude as a "doesn't care" vibe) sales people can also advise on your questions, or can tell you about things that aren't available on the builder.

* If you want an alder body with a koa and maple 5-piece neck, you first have to pick "alder body with maple neck". If you pick "alder body with koa neck" first, you'll be charged for both the 5-piece on the next page AND for the 1-piece maple upcharge, which you don't need.

** If you pick Jet Black for the body finish, but want a black headstock, you might think you need to select the "black painted headstock" option...but you don't, necessarily. The headstock is generally painted like the body on many models. Or, if you are getting a neck-through and select the satin body finish, you don't also have to select the "satin neck" finish, because that's what it will be by default with the satin body.

*** But with the last example above, if you pick a bolt-on, that's tung oil by default. So it's easy to pick options that don't mean what you think they mean, and a salesperson can walk you through every option and make sure you understand everything. 

Just make sure you do three things:
1) Get an email of the complete spec list via email before finalizing the order, and double check it. Feel free to post it over to the Kiesel Facebook group or the Kiesel website BBS (or here) and have people look it over if you have any questions. Sometimes folks can also spot some of those inconsistancies.

2) Make sure you are sure you're ordering exactly what you want BEFORE you order, because there are NO changes after ordering. None. Not even a few hours later.

3) Make sure that they notate any options that would void the 10-day trial period (note: it would still have it's full warranty, but you just don't get the 10 days to try it out). If the build still retains it, ask them to note that on it. Issues are rare, but they have come up, so it's a little thing you can do that doesn't hurt them, and can protect you. I'll note that in California, you have to tell people you're recording the call if you want to use a recording of the phone call for any legal issues. Otherwise it's likely inadmissable in court.

I ordered my first online, my second was used, my 3rd was via email and phone, and my 4th (getting finalized now) has been 100% email so far.


----------



## kisielk

Chatting with them over the phone was really helpful when choosing colour too. I spoke with Mike and he was able to send me some side-by-side photos of a couple of different red finishes I was interested in via email.


----------



## Mboogie7

Thanks for all the feedback guys. This community is just wonderful. 

I’m nearly ready to pull the trigger, but of course doing my due diligence before giving them a call.

I did ask in a separate thread, but might as well pose the question here too (in the event some overlooked the thread). What are the community’s thoughts on the Kiesel/Hipshot Trem?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

- Always call.
- Ask tons of questions.
- Triple check your invoice.
- Call immediately if anything is even maybe off.
- Send them example photos (via email) of what you want.


----------



## LeviathanKiller

Ordered my second Kiesel build. I had something stupid simple so all of the free upgrades for Black Friday made it even cheaper. Got a Kiesel Aries A7H for $1550-ish.

I tried to order a white logo on white white for completely stealth look, they said no. I wasn't shocked. lol


----------



## Seabeast2000

LeviathanKiller said:


> Ordered my second Kiesel build. I had something stupid simple so all of the free upgrades for Black Friday made it even cheaper. Got a Kiesel Aries A7H for $1550-ish.
> 
> I tried to order a white logo on white white for completely stealth look, they said no. I wasn't shocked. lol



Oh man, you should have told everyone you got that option, then never replied to any follow up questions.


----------



## kisielk

LeviathanKiller said:


> Ordered my second Kiesel build. I had something stupid simple so all of the free upgrades for Black Friday made it even cheaper. Got a Kiesel Aries A7H for $1550-ish.
> 
> I tried to order a white logo on white white for completely stealth look, they said no. I wasn't shocked. lol


Did you go with gold? That would look awesome on a white guitar.


----------



## LeviathanKiller

kisielk said:


> Did you go with gold? That would look awesome on a white guitar.


I was going to since this is replacing my Jericho Elite 7 (satin white) but I actually ended up going with chrome and abalone for a more icy kind of look. I didn't want to have to get gold-poled pickups and all that annoying stuff. Black on white is too stark so I definitely didn't go for that.


----------



## mbardu

Like a bunch of guys here it seems. Just ordered a V7 with all black friday options and their special on tops.
Saved about 1,000 $ total which was the difference for me between being still able to afford Kiesel or not.

Their prices definitely have increased a bit faster than inflation...

Very much looking forward though. Flamed green moss top, trem with piezo, and roasted maple neck.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Can anyone confirm what strings Kiesel ships on their guitars? I read Elixirs, but not sure which type. Asking for a friend.


----------



## spudmunkey

Nanoweb. They used to use Dulops for the 7th and 8th strings, but they all be elixirs now that they offer 7 and 8 string sets. Here's a post from a Kiesel employee.


----------



## Seabeast2000

spudmunkey said:


> Nanoweb. They used to use Dulops for the 7th and 8th strings, but they all be elixirs now that they offer 7 and 8 string sets. Here's a post from a Kiesel employee.



Thanks @spudmunkey


----------



## NoodleFace

Kind of bummed. Had a headstock tuner on and went to pull it off but my grip slipped. It ended up ripping a chip out of the headstock. Only like a 1x1cm square, but it pissed me off.


----------



## spudmunkey

Did you save the chip?


----------



## TheUnknownOne

Does anyone know how much it costs to get a kiesel shipped to EU ? I'm craving an Aries evertune right now


----------



## spudmunkey

Their international shipping itself is double the standard US shipping. So I believe a guitar would be $62.

Then, it's whatever your applicable taxes/fees would be from your local/eu governments. From what i understand, the value reported is the value of the base model (not with all of the upgrades like the Evertune)...but don't quote me on that.


----------



## mbardu

TheUnknownOne said:


> Does anyone know how much it costs to get a kiesel shipped to EU ? I'm craving an Aries evertune right now





spudmunkey said:


> Their international shipping itself is double the standard US shipping. So I believe a guitar would be $62.
> 
> Then, it's whatever your applicable taxes/fees would be from your local/eu governments. From what i understand, the value reported is the value of the base model (not with all of the upgrades like the Evertune)...but don't quote me on that.



Ce qui en France fait environ ... 24% de memoire et contrairement a ce que dit Spud, c'est bien la valeur complete de la guitare qui sert de base pour le calcul, donc c'est loin d'etre negligeable au final!


----------



## laxu

TheUnknownOne said:


> Does anyone know how much it costs to get a kiesel shipped to EU ? I'm craving an Aries evertune right now



Depends on the country. All the way to Finland it was I think $116 back in 2015. On top of that you will pay whatever customs taxes and VAT your country has.


----------



## NoodleFace

spudmunkey said:


> Did you save the chip?


I can't find it!


----------



## spudmunkey

They just announced a multiscale Vader bass. This is their headless neck through model.

5 and 6 string only, 33.5 to 35". Right handed only.

If you can catch them before the end of the day, and you can call in an order, I believe they said you could pick a 3 or 5 piece neck upgrade at no charge.


----------



## TheUnknownOne

mbardu said:


> Ce qui en France fait environ ... 24% de memoire et contrairement a ce que dit Spud, c'est bien la valeur complete de la guitare qui sert de base pour le calcul, donc c'est loin d'etre negligeable au final!



Ah en effet, cela monte donc très vite a plus ou moins 2600€ TTC avec des options donc !


----------



## Chanson

spudmunkey said:


> They just announced a multiscale Vader bass. This is their headless neck through model.
> 
> 5 and 6 string only, 33.5 to 35". Right handed only.
> 
> If you can catch them before the end of the day, and you can call in an order, I believe they said you could pick a 3 or 5 piece neck upgrade at no charge.



Guess they changed their minds


----------



## spudmunkey

That was 13 whole days ago.

They rarely say "yes" unless it's already something they've already had available in the past, and san say, "Call the guys" or, "We used to, but it was discontinued." They don't like to tease anything until it's ready to be teased.

honestly, I think it goes back to their first multiscale bass. They were teasing that they were starting to design a multiscale bass. They said it was going to be based on the Icon. They even teased a photo, of a not-yet shaped, but clearly neck-through, multiscale bass. I think this was even before they finalized the hardware.

Months passed, and radio silence.

Until the vanquish was released.

I have a feeling they got a lot of "feedback" about the missing Icon multiscale, because from that very time, they pretty much stopped telling anyone about things so early.

This was from way back before the vanquish multiscale, their first multiscale bass, ever existed:




It's also possible that their social media guy wasn't aware of it yet.


----------



## Chanson

spudmunkey said:


> That was 13 whole days ago.
> 
> They rarely say "yes" unless it's already something they've already had available in the past, and san say, "Call the guys" or, "We used to, but it was discontinued." They don't like to tease anything until it's ready to be teased.
> 
> honestly, I think it goes back to their first multiscale bass. They were teasing that they were starting to design a multiscale bass. They said it was going to be based on the Icon. They even teased a photo, of a not-yet shaped, but clearly neck-through, multiscale bass. I think this was even before they finalized the hardware.
> 
> Months passed, and radio silence.
> 
> Until the vanquish was released.
> 
> I have a feeling they got a lot of "feedback" about the missing Icon multiscale, because from that very time, they pretty much stopped telling anyone about things so early.
> 
> This was from way back before the vanquish multiscale, their first multiscale bass, ever existed:
> View attachment 75655
> 
> 
> 
> It's also possible that their social media guy wasn't aware of it yet.




I'm just joking and giving them a hard time. No big deal


----------



## spudmunkey

Ask again, and send them your screenshot with a winky-face. Who knows, they might message back with a coupon or something. ha!


----------



## mbardu

TheUnknownOne said:


> Ah en effet, cela monte donc très vite a plus ou moins 2600€ TTC avec des options donc !



Pas grand chose à faire contre la tva malheureusement. Après ça peut sembler injuste mais même ici en Californie, on paie presque 10% de "sales tax" donc ce n'est pas SI différent que ça.

Le mieux avec Kiesel c'est souvent d'attendre des promotions. Ils en ont régulièrement (~tous les 2/3 mois) et tu peux vraiment économiser si ça correspond à tes options. Par exemple avec leurs offres Black Friday, sur ma dernière commande je paie environ 1000$ de moins que le prix "catalogue".


----------



## Hollowway

I just bought a Delos 7 SSH trem in matte pink with a roasted neck and FB. I paid $1150 on the verb, which is not too different from what a new one costs, but I've wanted one of these >6 string strats for a while. (I'd love one of Tom Drinkwater's SSS 8 strings from a few years ago, but they absolutely never show up FS). I'm curious to try the trem on this! I'm worried I won't like it as much as I like a Floyd, but it IS floating, so....


----------



## spudmunkey

They finally FINALLY put out a pickup comparison video. Well..for the humbuckers, anyway.


----------



## ixlramp

Just dropping in to say i am in love with the X-type.
Headless. But not a boring superstrat, or a Strandberg-copy body shape that i am already tired of seeing on most headless guitars (its the headless version of Strat copying). Very cute, compact and original X/star shape.
But then, i have weird tastes i know =)


----------



## spudmunkey

spudmunkey said:


> They finally FINALLY put out a pickup comparison video. Well..for the humbuckers, anyway.




Hmm...they skipped the Greg Howe and Frank Gambale pickups...


----------



## mbardu

Hollowway said:


> I just bought a Delos 7 SSH trem in matte pink with a roasted neck and FB. I paid $1150 on the verb, which is not too different from what a new one costs, but I've wanted one of these >6 string strats for a while. (I'd love one of Tom Drinkwater's SSS 8 strings from a few years ago, but they absolutely never show up FS). I'm curious to try the trem on this! I'm worried I won't like it as much as I like a Floyd, but it IS floating, so....



Ah I'm always wondering...
I see all those Kiesel nowadays who cost pretty much new price, or sometimes price higher than new on Reverb and I don't understand why. But they do seem to get buyers then 

Let us know when you get it, I'm also intrigued by (and hopeful for) the trem.


----------



## Hollowway

mbardu said:


> Ah I'm always wondering...
> I see all those Kiesel nowadays who cost pretty much new price, or sometimes price higher than new on Reverb and I don't understand why. But they do seem to get buyers then
> 
> Let us know when you get it, I'm also intrigued by (and hopeful for) the trem.



Yeah, to be fair it WAS cheaper than new. It has a few upgrades that I probably wouldn’t have gotten (like the swamp ash body and the hard shell case). And the sales tax on Reverb makes it less of a deal. The guitar costs new something like $1563 to $1674 (depending on the options), and I paid $1240, so I got like $300 or more dollars off. But, it’s not the screaming deal you can sometimes get with used Kiesels. Of course, the super expensive ones are usually such a rococo mix of colors and woods that it reminds me of a teenage girl that just discovered makeup. IMO the sexiest Kiesels are the ones that show a lot of restraint. It’s there that Jeff and I will have to agree to disagree.


----------



## lurè

spudmunkey said:


> Hmm...they skipped the Greg Howe and Frank Gambale pickups...



Really impressed in how good the Holdsworth sounds under high gain. 
Can't wait to try out once my VM7 arrives.


----------



## lurè

ixlramp said:


> Just dropping in to say i am in love with the X-type.
> Headless. But not a boring superstrat, or a Strandberg-copy body shape that i am already tired of seeing on most headless guitars (its the headless version of Strat copying). Very cute, compact and original X/star shape.
> But then, i have weird tastes i know =)


I really like it but I prefer the 6 and 7 string version ; the 8 just doesn't look right to me.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

spudmunkey said:


> They finally FINALLY put out a pickup comparison video. Well..for the humbuckers, anyway.



damn the holdsworths really impressed me. They seem super versatile without being quite as thin/harsh as the lithiums.


----------



## Cynicanal

Illusionist was the winner there, IMO. Good clarity, and a more balanced midrange than the Lithium. Thorium did much better on crunch than it did on high-gain; I'd be kind of interested in hearing it with a high-gain sound with the gain set just a touch lower, since I think it may have just been oversaturating on the high-gain rhythm.


----------



## spudmunkey

Keep in mind the Holdsworths are unpotted.


----------



## MSS

I am a long time Carvin fan and owner. I have a Vader 7 on order. This is the second FaceTime live episode where I just didn’t jive with the owner.


----------



## spudmunkey

Does one need to?


----------



## Hollowway

Does anyone remember seeing a shot of the under-pickguard routing on the Delos model? I thought I saw someone post one, but I don’t remember where (or even if). @spudmunkey do you know of one? I’m curious if it’s more swimming pool or tight.


----------



## works0fheart

How is Kiesel now days? Are they still a customer service nightmare when it comes to getting quality instruments or has that storm finally passed?


----------



## mbardu

works0fheart said:


> How is Kiesel now days? Are they still a customer service nightmare when it comes to getting quality instruments or has that storm finally passed?



As far as I'm aware, not much should have changed "customer service"-wise except they're getting even more business this day.

If you were in the camp of "Kiesel is terrible because of those couple of 'horror' stories" (full disclosure I was not and thought those were blown way out of proportion) then the situation is probably unchanged.

That is to say:

things are usually fine 95% of the time with them (or I should say more than fine, their quality can really be stellar)
if there is anything AT ALL that might be tricky, it is always best to call and talk to them, even before you are ready to order. I know many people are too "shy" to do that, but for better or for worse, it's what works best
avoid anything super custom or non-returnable if you're not familiar with the process or if (as mentioned above) you don't want to talk to people on the phone. if particularly risk averse, just order a build covered by the no-risk return policy
be aware that their business is growing like crazy so if something slips through the cracks, don't hesitate to call (again) to check what's up
Besides service, regarding strictly the quality of the instruments, there's not much that hasn't been said already. You can have _some_ variability in their finished product, but that's on the low side (I have really only played 1 or 2 Carvin/Kiesel I'd call bad out of literally over 100 guitars). For comparison I've played way more shitty Ibanez Prestige (poor neck pocket, terrible finish, awful frets etc) out of owning less than 20. You may get a _bit_ more consistency from something like a Tom Anderson (if you think 1/2% is too high of a risk, even with a no-risk return policy), but most of what Kiesel produces is at least good to great.

They're not perfect. They should really streamline their 90's era website and ordering process. They should be better at support online for people who can't or don't like to deal over the phone. If you add a lot of cosmetic options, they lose a lot of their "value" appeal. Their style is not for everyone I know it's a subject of debate here  But as long as you are aware of what you're getting into they're great- and often there's little risk in giving them a shot.


----------



## spudmunkey

I do have to say, it seems like it's been a while since I've heard a "horror story".

As of today, the following items are retired. You still *might* be able to get one without the 10-day trial if you call. 
LB 6-string bass
SCBM8
JB100
Multiscale versions of the Solo line
8-string Solo
HF2 "Fatboy"*
M22 pickups (these were announced that they were "while supplies last" for over 2 years.)

*the one I'm most sad about. Although it's construction was unlike any other model they make, and I would have loved to get one some day...bottom line is I (and many others) never bought one, so I cant blame them for retiring ut.


----------



## toner

Kiesels I currently have:

AM6 - First multiscale and I love it for the tuning I use. Excellent build no issues.
ST300H - dissatisfied with the quality on this one (bought 2nd hand from original buyer 3 months after he purchased it, no warranty). Insane fret sprout up to 1mm protrusion and lifting the clear coat plus visible grain through the finish.
BOLT kit - awesome quality no fret issues, full finish myself and it's perfect.
BOLT kit floyd rose - awesome quality no fret issues painted Corvette ZR1 blue

Priors: Carvin TL60 that was decent and had some minor fret sprout lifting the neck finish.
GP700x guitarporn limited run. This one was perfect all around just never played it.


----------



## spudmunkey

Did anyone from Kiesel ever use the "GP7X" name, or was that something just that buyers in that run made up on their own to make their own DC7Xs seem somehow more unique.


----------



## BigViolin

spudmunkey said:


> HF2 "Fatboy"*
> 
> 
> *the one I'm most sad about. Although it's construction was unlike any other model they make, and I would have loved to get one some day...bottom line is I (and many others) never bought one, so I cant blame them for retiring ut.



Bummer, always loved the design of the body but couldn't gel with the overall look. This is the model that should have been headless. I guess that probably had to do with lifting the design from DeLap and not wanting to produce something close to a copy. I don't even know if DeLap is still building. Would be ironic if they finally produced the guitar that Allan really wanted at this point. I ordered a HH1 the day it was offered and would do the same for a headless fatboy.


----------



## narad

works0fheart said:


> How is Kiesel now days? Are they still a customer service nightmare when it comes to getting quality instruments or has that storm finally passed?



If you're not hearing about any recent nightmares, it's likely you're just in the eye of the storm.


----------



## toner

spudmunkey said:


> Did anyone from Kiesel ever use the "GP7X" name, or was that something just that buyers in that run made up on their own to make their own DC7Xs seem somehow more unique.



My order form of the guitars line 1 = DC7X 27" Scale, line 2- GP7X Guitar Porn DC7X

so it looks like both


----------



## toner

narad said:


> If you're not hearing about any recent nightmares, it's likely you're just in the eye of the storm.



Their facebook page has lots of posts from people with issues though every manufacturer isn't perfect.


----------



## HungryGuitarStudent

narad said:


> If you're not hearing about any recent nightmares, it's likely you're just in the eye of the storm.



I don’t know if my case is representative, but in the last 4 years I ordered two Kiesel custom guitars, both were in pristine condition (one required minor trem adjustment) and customer service was great. I had a minor website problem with both my orders and my case was handled rapidly. Great communication and good customer service in both cases (to confirm build choices). Build times were respected in both cases. Ymmv.


----------



## spudmunkey

The guitar and bass kits are no longer listed on the site. Not surprise, since the only models they offered as kits were models that were discontinued otherwise, like the bolt, TLB 60, bolt plus, and the B40 and B50 basses.


----------



## diagrammatiks

they did really get rid of solo multi scales?


----------



## spudmunkey

diagrammatiks said:


> they did really get rid of solo multi scales?



Yep. And the 8-string non-multi.

Jeff: "I don't discontinue models...you guys do. I'm not going to discontinue something that sells well. If something isn't worth our time and effort to keep it around, and you guys don't buy the model or option, it's liable to get cut."

It's not without precident. The BC130 back-in-the-day was discontinued after a year. i think the 7-string Holdsworth and JN200C models were, as well. It's not just the "carvin"-era models. He cut the Xcellerator bass pretty quickly, and that was his own design.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

It's so hard to keep a CNC program in your system and it's so hard to run a CNC operation on the same neck program you use for the Aries. It's almost like he wants people to whine on the internet to get them attention.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

I used to be a diehard Kieselboy but I don't like their pricing increases and the way they always say stuff like "Buy now before our prices go up." Then they double the price of options depending on what is selling highest. It is a good business move but as a consumer it irks me. Solution: Never buy from them again.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Eh, people are weird. They just like having the option to buy something, even if after so long they still have no intent to ever actually get one.

I'm sure someone out there just loves collecting fanned Solo models, and they have every right to be bummed, but most will complain to complain.


----------



## spudmunkey

The Holdsworth Fatboy was discontinued, and someone on the Facebook group posted an "RIP" thread about it. I don't remember any more than _maybe _ONE NGD post on FB, their forum, or here, for a holdsworth Fatboy all year, that wasn't bought used.

Their M22 pickups are gone, but they said they were on their way out almost two and a half years ago. Back then they said maybe 6 months or a year of stock left. It's now finally discontinued after 2+ years after the original heads up, and the H22 already died last year.


----------



## kisielk

Damn, always wanted to try a fatboy, guess I will have to pick one up used. I've got an HH2X on order right now and was waiting for that to come in and play it for a while before picking up the HF2... can only have so many guitars at once


----------



## spudmunkey

Upon further inspection, the C22 pickups are also gone. The single coils are the only "legacy" pickups left.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Is the fanned crescent still around? Seems weird they sell more of those then fanned solos. 

I’m just a single cut man livin in a double cut world.


----------



## spudmunkey

diagrammatiks said:


> Is the fanned crescent still around?



Yes it is.


----------



## spudmunkey

They just revealed the new "HD" model (Headless Delos).

6 and 7 string, 25.5" scale.

Unlike their other headless, it's 14" standard radius (10, 12 or 20 are also options)

Seems like all other Delos options are available, even 22 fret (only on the 6-string). Instead of a headstock logo, there's a "K" engraved into the pickguard where their normal headless logo would go.

https://www.kieselguitars.com/catalog/guitars/hd6
https://www.kieselguitars.com/catalog/guitars/hd7


----------



## Mboogie7

Does anyone know if they still offer a 26.5 scale length option on the Aries? Their builder still has it, but we all know how out of date that is.


----------



## spudmunkey

Mboogie7 said:


> Does anyone know if they still offer a 26.5 scale length option on the Aries? Their builder still has it, but we all know how out of date that is.



Yep, it's still available.


----------



## spudmunkey

spudmunkey said:


> They just revealed the new "HD" model (Headless Delos).
> 
> 6 and 7 string, 25.5" scale.
> 
> Unlike their other headless, it's 14" standard radius (10, 12 or 20 are also options)
> 
> Seems like all other Delos options are available, even 22 fret (only on the 6-string). Instead of a headstock logo, there's a "K" engraved into the pickguard where their normal headless logo would go.
> 
> https://www.kieselguitars.com/catalog/guitars/hd6
> https://www.kieselguitars.com/catalog/guitars/hd7



Starts at $1149. Cheaper than Osiris by $50, lowest priced headless from Kiesel


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Ew. It looks like a bad mod job.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

spudmunkey said:


> Starts at $1149. Cheaper than Osiris by $50, lowest priced headless from Kiesel



this is so much worse than the x shape headless


----------



## spudmunkey

Maybe it's just because I have no real connection/nostalgia for "strats", so variations don't look "wrong" to me. Just different. I don't mind it. Could potentially give it a shot over a Delos.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

spudmunkey said:


> Maybe it's just because I have no real connection/nostalgia for "strats", so variations don't look "wrong" to me. Just different. I don't mind it. Could potentially give it a shot over a Delos.


I'm not a traditionalist by any means, I just feel this is the least developed (in terms of design) headless model yet.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Pretty sure these passed few years has just been Jeff looking at random guitars in their lineup and being like


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Lol so much innovation


----------



## lurè

I want to hate it so much but I can't.

Honestly, with solid finish and without translucent or burled tops is not horrible.


----------



## mbardu

lurè said:


> I want to hate it so much



If you had stopped there you would have had a pretty good summary of sso's feelings towards Kiesel


----------



## spudmunkey

lurè said:


> I want to hate it so much but I can't.
> 
> Honestly, with solid finish and without translucent or burled tops is not horrible.



Same. I love the solid colors the best, that blue flame next. I'll never like "california burst", no matter the wood (burled or not).


----------



## DEUCE SLUICE

lurè said:


> Honestly, with solid finish and without translucent or burled tops is not horrible.



I dig it.

Keep it real simple, solid color, roasted maple neck / board... I could mess with that for sure.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Same. I love the solid colors the best, that blue flame next. I'll never like "california burst", no matter the wood (burled or not).



Glad to hear I'm not alone. 
I've only seen one caliburst I liked, it was an odd type of Teal but other than that....meeeeeh


----------



## Albake21

So is it just me or does it look like Kiesel is really trying to turn into a headless only shop. I mean shit most of their social media are headless guitars and most of their models are now headless. Nothing wrong with that, just something I'm noticing. Wish I liked headless guitars.


----------



## spudmunkey

The more headless guitars they sell, the more it makes sense to make. Keep in mind that 3 of their 8 headless models are artist signature models...and of the other 5, 2 of them are just "single cut/double cut" variations of each other, and one of those signature models is just the combination of those two. So really, they have 6 headless models (HD, Type X, Vader, CL7, Holdsworth, and then the Oziris/Zeus/Lee McKinney family) out of their 35 guitar models.

8 out of 35 is about 22.9% of their models. Is it crazy to think that the Zeus, Vader, etc make up 22% of their sales?


----------



## technomancer

It just looks... stunted  (and I actually do like the Vader, Zeus, and Osiris shapes)


----------



## MSS

Love the Vader shape. Not so much this one. Personal preference I guess.


----------



## mbardu

Albake21 said:


> So is it just me or does it look like Kiesel is really trying to turn into a headless only shop. I mean shit most of their social media are headless guitars and most of their models are now headless. Nothing wrong with that, just something I'm noticing. Wish I liked headless guitars.



Their other models are still very good, from the DCs to the carved tops, but the demand there is not as hot and there is soo much competition and options for traditional guitars! 

Now take made in USA, semi custom headless, including ERGs... that's a pretty sweet growing niche, still with the novelty effect. 

For better or for worse, Jeff is way more reactive than past generations (and other brands for that matter) and right now, headless is the trend. They are selling like hot cakes, way more volume than their traditional models, so why not bank on that trend!

Won't necessarily last forever though. I mean what's left to cut the head from? A couple of basses, a crescent and a V


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> Won't necessarily last forever though. I mean what's left to cut the head from? A couple of basses, a crescent and a V



Carved top. Oh, and gotta give tuner access..


----------



## DEUCE SLUICE

spudmunkey said:


> The more headless guitars they sell, the more it makes sense to make. Keep in mind that 3 of their 8 headless models are artist signature models...and of the other 5, 2 of them are just "single cut/double cut" variations of each other, and one of those signature models is just the combination of those two. So really, they have 6 headless models (HD, Type X, Vader, CL7, Holdsworth, and then the Oziris/Zeus/Lee McKinney family) out of their 35 guitar models.



Plus, it doesn't cost them anything more than their CNC guys' time to come up with these variations. They've already figured out the hardware and they don't have to maintain substantial levels of stock.


----------



## mbardu

DEUCE SLUICE said:


> Plus, it doesn't cost them anything more than their CNC guys' time to come up with these variations. They've already figured out the hardware and they don't have to maintain substantial levels of stock.



Well in theory yeah, but in practice, even if it's just one more program in the cnc, it doesn't stop them from trying to keep the lineup "somehow" under control with things like the recent wave of discontinued models for instance.


----------



## Samark

Looks great I think


----------



## Seabeast2000

They look as good or bad as any other headless. I wouldn't kick it out of bed for eating McDonald's


----------



## vortex_infinium

technomancer said:


> It just looks... stunted  (and I actually do like the Vader, Zeus, and Osiris shapes)



That's what I was thinking! It looks like a really slick early 2000s travel guitar.


----------



## diagrammatiks

I hate it.


----------



## Albake21

I don't hate it and it does look good in some angles, but is it just me or does it look like the guitar melted and is now drooping when looking at it from the front?


----------



## diagrammatiks

Albake21 said:


> I don't hate it and it does look good in some angles, but is it just me or does it look like the guitar melted and is now drooping when looking at it from the front?



its mostly because all the junk in the trunk throws off the visual balance.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

diagrammatiks said:


> I hate it.


----------



## Hollowway

I don’t like it at all. I do like the Delos, though, so I guess it just shows that (for me) simply cutting the headstock off can take a guitar from good to bad.

BUT, this is a great entry point for someone wanting a headless for not too much cash.


----------



## spudmunkey

It's only $50 more than the standard Delos, and all of the specs are the same. Not bad.


----------



## diagrammatiks

MaxOfMetal said:


>



gah what's wrong with me. the more i look at it the less disgusting it seems...

like maybe if it was multiscale seven.....


----------



## diagrammatiks

Gah I knew it...

I recently bought a headless with junk in the trunk and now i'm on a one way train to no taste ville


----------



## josh1

I love it


----------



## spudmunkey

Overlay gif with Delos and Headless Delos:
https://i.imgur.com/tsKGOAA.gifv


----------



## Seabeast2000

spudmunkey said:


> Overlay gif with Delos and Headless Delos:
> https://i.imgur.com/tsKGOAA.gifv


Well.. I call that a different guitar.


----------



## CapinCripes

spudmunkey said:


> Overlay gif with Delos and Headless Delos:
> https://i.imgur.com/tsKGOAA.gifv


So it's a fun size delos then. A delos de los poquitos if you will.


----------



## Burtallica

Sounds like I'm in the SSO minority here, but... I kinda like it.


----------



## spudmunkey

It certainly looks better than this one, to me anyway.


----------



## sylcfh

I could go for a Delos-style single cut (TL/Solo). The Zeus lacks symmetry and has a disproportionate upper to lower half of the body.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> It certainly looks better than this one, to me anyway.



Can't argue with that


----------



## CapinCripes

Honestly though my first thought was that strat guys would love it as a nice (9 times out of 10 and god help you if your number 10) travel guitar. Its 3 inches shorter than traveler guitars equivalent the travelcaster and far less stupid looking and guaranteed to be better made. That said I then realized that a lot of strat guys are a bit militant about the whole 6 screw bridge thing so.. headless may not be for the more militant ones.


----------



## spudmunkey

Mark Okubo from Veil of Maya has a signature model now. Similar to the Cam Liddell sig model, it's basically na options package for a (mostly) existing model. It's a DC700 with just a bridge pickup, the Kiesel/hipshot trem, black hardware, black pickups with black pole pieces, and a new 7-string "Pointy re-issue" headstock...the one the JB207C should have come with when they model came out...


----------



## KnightBrolaire

post image link

ninja'd on the pics by spud


----------



## Albake21

Hell yeah! This world needs more pink guitars and Marc is the guy to do it. A pretty solid price too!


----------



## spudmunkey

I have to assume it comes with the 20" fretboard radius and thin neck option. Assuming all of those, I'm getting around $1750 for a "normal" DC700 with all of those visible specs (tung oil neck, polatiry pickups with black pole pieces, an upgraded headstock, a $100 finish (just a guess there), black hardware, etc).


----------



## Albake21

I'd love to know if I could add a neck pickup. I doubt it since it's his signature, but I'd love to know.

EDIT: Looks like it comes standard with a Polarity set in the bridge and neck, but you can delete the neck pickup and 5 way blade if you want.


----------



## spudmunkey

The headstock has a Solar vibe to it, i think. It somehow seems a bit "swoopier" than their 6-string inline angled "reissue" pointy.


----------



## HungryGuitarStudent

Different strokes for different folks, but if I was going for that look, I’d prefer having something like a strat or a Schecter Nick Johnston than this.

Personally, I play headless guitars mostly for ergonomics, but I still find these models not very sexy when compared to Vaders or Strandbergs. If there’s a market of people who like them, then who am I to judge.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> It certainly looks better than this one, to me anyway.



You mean the Letchford sig? Yes, I agree.


----------



## Jeff

diagrammatiks said:


> Gah I knew it...
> 
> I recently bought a headless with junk in the trunk and now i'm on a one way train to no taste ville



with the normal Strat body, it just looks like a travel guitar.


----------



## spudmunkey

Not that anyone was expecting anything different, but it appears that Carvin has no NAMM presence this year. I remember one of the last years, they had their products in the Vola and Acacia Guitars booths, but there's no mention of anything like that this year that i've come across.


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> Not that anyone was expecting anything different, but it appears that Carvin has no NAMM presence this year. I remember one of the last years, they had their products in the Vola and Acacia Guitars booths, but there's no mention of anything like that this year that i've come across.


It looks like they are still around though as their site has been updated for 2020. Honestly I'm amazed they still exist as I never see anyone with any newer Carvin equipment.


----------



## spudmunkey

Albake21 said:


> It looks like they are still around though as their site has been updated for 2020. Honestly I'm amazed they still exist as I never see anyone with any newer Carvin equipment.



Yeah, they even just came our with a new pedalboard power amp (seems to be just a re-badge of the same one Harley Benton which sells for 30% less than the Carvin.


----------



## Hollowway

Anyone know if the flake Kiesel does is strictly silver (MFS) or is it available in other colors? I’m specifically wondering if it’s available in gold, as I love the Ohmura twinkle pink finish. But I can’t find any info online.


----------



## spudmunkey

They have done gold metal flake before, but I'm not sure if they still offer it. Code is MFG (Metal Flake Gold).






Gold on black:



Gold on pink


----------



## Hollowway

Ah, so there was a MFG! I thought I remembered that. Although, the gold on pink doesn’t look like the ESP Twinkle Pink, so I might have to rethink that....


----------



## spudmunkey

If I had to describe what I see when I google "esp twinkle pink", I would describe it to Kiesel like, "Your old Pearl Purple color with rainbow sparkle."

A new build of their old pearl purple:




Their rainbow sparkle on lavender, with aqua and black bursts:


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> If I had to describe what I see when I google "esp twinkle pink", I would describe it to Kiesel like, "Your old Pearl Purple color with rainbow sparkle."
> 
> A new build of their old pearl purple:
> View attachment 76491
> 
> 
> 
> Their rainbow sparkle on lavender, with aqua and black bursts:
> View attachment 76492



Geez that would be awfully close.
'yer a Wizard Spud!


----------



## spudmunkey

Damn...might be my favorite K series to date!


----------



## LeviathanKiller

spudmunkey said:


> Damn...might be my favorite K series to date!
> View attachment 76509


Matching bevels ftw


----------



## spudmunkey

LeviathanKiller said:


> Matching bevels ftw



I'm normally a sucker for the "natural binding effect", but for my next one, I'm likely doing a matching edge kinda like that with the trans black burst, but in an aqua sort of color.


----------



## mbardu

View attachment 76516
Hmmm...bindings


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

I am a sucker for their RNC wih a solid color top. I had a VM8 with ash body and top and the top was seafoam rawtone. I miss that guitar


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> Damn...might be my favorite K series to date!
> View attachment 76509


That is a killer quilt, and a very cool way to use the slight burst to offset the bevels.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

That’s a perfect example of what Kiesel can do well. It’s much cleaner and aesthetically pleasing with the matching bevels and coloured sides plus a black ebony board to match.


----------



## 777timesgod

Just goes to show that Kiesel can build a pretty guitar when they do not overcomplicate things with the finish.
Also, no one is going to comment on the Kiesel tattoo on the hand holding it? Who want one? I am sure they will offer a discount for your next buy if you do.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

777timesgod said:


> Just goes to show that Kiesel can build a pretty guitar when they do not overcomplicate things with the finish.
> Also, no one is going to comment on the Kiesel tattoo on the hand holding it? Who want one? I am sure they will offer a discount for your next buy if you do.


Can pretty much guarantee that's Jeff Kiesel's hand. He's exactly the kind of person that would get their own last name tattooed on themselves.


----------



## 777timesgod

KnightBrolaire said:


> Can pretty much guarantee that's Jeff Kiesel's hand. He's exactly the kind of person that would get their own last name tattooed on themselves.



Conor McGregor dislikes your post and just unfollowed you on FB.


----------



## spudmunkey

777timesgod said:


> Also, no one is going to comment on the Kiesel tattoo on the hand holding it? Who want one?



That's Jeff kiesel, VP of the company and grandson of the founder.



777timesgod said:


> I am sure they will offer a discount for your next buy if you do.



There is a guy on the FB who got a Kiesel logo tattoo. I'm 100% sure he gets some sort of discount.



KnightBrolaire said:


> Can pretty much guarantee that's Jeff Kiesel's hand. He's exactly the kind of person that would get their own last name tattooed on themselves.



In addition to the Kiesel logo, he also has had a tattoo of their CS6 model on his forearm for years (the Kiesel logo tattoo came after they went back to that name, so it's newer). The "46" represents the 1946 founding of the company by his grandpa, and each of the stars represents a national championship in his car racing. So at least the tattos have meaning, and it's not just...like...a dancing Elmo, a rastafarian Bart simpson with a joint, or my brother's Celtic triad symbol thing, even though our family is mostly german/hungarian/austrian and he's never even been to ireland. 


Someone else actually created a "Jeff Kiesel Arm" instagram account at one point shortly after jeff started posting impromptu pics more regularly to the social media platforms.
https://www.instagram.com/jeffkieselsarm/?hl=en


----------



## Frostbite

KnightBrolaire said:


> Can pretty much guarantee that's Jeff Kiesel's hand. He's exactly the kind of person that would get their own last name tattooed on themselves.


probably forgets it every once and a while. Gotta remind himself some how


----------



## spudmunkey




----------



## Mathemagician

Man I really like that shape. Very nice take on a PRS like shape.


----------



## gunch

Would buy a Okubo 6 

going to jam [iD] and CMC today


----------



## spudmunkey

Mathemagician said:


> Man I really like that shape. Very nice take on a PRS like shape.



Side-by-side, the Kiesel is a little more "svelte" and less "stocky" to my eye, but to some, it might seem 'stretched out' if you're more used to seeing PRS (which nearly everyone else is). I was never a huge fan of the PRS-style upper fret access cutaway on guiars with layered finishes (I have it on my Kiesel Aries, but that's a 1-piece body). 

The upper horn reaches out a liiiittle further on the Kiesel, too.

This is the SH6. It's based on the outline of the CT6, but the body depth at it's thickest is as thick as their semi-hollow single cut, the SH550. This model's top is more carved down on the sides, to the body edge thickness is somewhere between the CT6 and SH550.

This is a 1-piece burled maple top, and will have their "acoustic" piezo system with a stoptail bridge.


----------



## spudmunkey

A new bass, but just a headless update of an old design, the Sekou Bunch signature SB4000/5000/4001/5001.

Their lowest-price headless bass. I *think* he said $1249.

34", and at least the 5 is also avaiable in multiscale 33.5"-35"
14" radius
Standard single coil pickups

Called the...*sigh*...Thanos.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Excuse the low-quality screenshot


----------



## cardinal

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Excuse the low-quality screenshot
> 
> View attachment 76565



I love that thing. All of it.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Excuse the low-quality screenshot
> 
> View attachment 76565



Now that's pretty fucking cool.


----------



## spudmunkey

I reeeeally dig it, too.

This is their old model that it's toootally "inspired by". I always LOVED that shape. There's a red quilted one that shows up on my local craigslist on the reg. It's always for, like, $900. If it's ever posted for $500, it's mine.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> View attachment 76552
> View attachment 76553



Wait....what do you mean "it's happening"? 
Is that going to be your guitar?


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> I reeeeally dig it, too.
> 
> This is their old model that it's toootally "inspired by". I always LOVED that shape. There's a red quilted one that shows up on my local craigslist on the reg. It's always for, like, $900. If it's ever posted for $500, it's mine.



Naaaah..... a red quilted SB locally, really? How come I never spotted it? I looove SBs.
I'll jump on it waaaayyy faster than you, even if I have to offer $501!


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> Wait....what do you mean "it's happening"?
> Is that going to be your guitar?



Yes. 

1-piece burled maple top. It will be blue. That's all I can say at this point, but no it's not a "blob of vomit floating in toilet water" "California burst".


----------



## KnightBrolaire

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Excuse the low-quality screenshot
> 
> View attachment 76565


It looks like a jawbreaker. I love it.
The shape is pretty neat too.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Yes.
> 
> 1-piece burled maple top. It will be blue. That's all I can say at this point, but no it's not a "blob of vomit floating in toilet water" "California burst".



Aqua blue fade?


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> Naaaah..... a red quilted SB locally, really? How come I never spotted it? I looove SBs.
> I'll jump on it waaaayyy faster than you, even if I have to offer $501!


 You probably have. I actually think it's fretless, if I remember right. Ebony board and no pick guard. Actually haven't seen it in a little while. It usually seems to pop up every 6 months to a year.


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> I reeeeally dig it, too.
> 
> This is their old model that it's toootally "inspired by". I always LOVED that shape. There's a red quilted one that shows up on my local craigslist on the reg. It's always for, like, $900. If it's ever posted for $500, it's mine.


Maybe I'm in the minority here, but make this body available for guitars and I'd place an order immediately. This is one of the first times I can say that a Kiesel model doesn't look like a complete toy.


----------



## spudmunkey

When the SB was out, someone over on the Carivn forum did a photoshop of an "SB" guitar. I tihnk it was an 8-string, sans pickguard. Maybe black quilt, if memory serves. I didn't care for it, but I know some folks did.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Guys at kiesel: " Hey NAMM is coming up. Any new ideas for models? Something new and creative. We are in a good place to start exploring with more stuff like the Type X"

Jeff: " TOTALLY RAD BRO I HAVE A RAD IDEA THAT WILL LOOK JUST DEVASTATING. SO GET THIS, IT IS THE OLD SB BASS. BUT HEADLESS. AND FOR GUITARS THE MOST INNOVATIVE IDEA EVER. DELOS, BUT HEADLESS"

I respect the new models but damn can we have some creativity besides just "(Insert model), but headless"

Kiesel 5 years from now. All models are just headless versions of original models. Everything comes in unicorn puke. 

They did however add hot pink as a 0 cost option now soooo


----------



## spudmunkey

"We are in a good place to start exploring with more stuff like the Type X"

...you mean like an X/V220, but headless?


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

spudmunkey said:


> "We are in a good place to start exploring with more stuff like the Type X"
> 
> ...you mean like an X/V220, but headless?



Thank you for the cliffnotes for people who may not understand the obvious point of that comment.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Guys at kiesel: " Hey NAMM is coming up. Any new ideas for models? Something new and creative. We are in a good place to start exploring with more stuff like the Type X"
> 
> Jeff: " TOTALLY RAD BRO I HAVE A RAD IDEA THAT WILL LOOK JUST DEVASTATING. SO GET THIS, IT IS THE OLD SB BASS. BUT HEADLESS. AND FOR GUITARS THE MOST INNOVATIVE IDEA EVER. DELOS, BUT HEADLESS"
> 
> I respect the new models but damn can we have some creativity besides just "(Insert model), but headless"
> 
> Kiesel 5 years from now. All models are just headless versions of original models. Everything comes in unicorn puke.
> 
> They did however add hot pink as a 0 cost option now soooo



Let me design your next guitar. 

Hot pink with light pink burst. I call it Peptoburst. The perfect companion to go with toilet burst


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Guys at kiesel: " Hey NAMM is coming up. Any new ideas for models? Something new and creative. We are in a good place to start exploring with more stuff like the Type X"
> 
> Jeff: " TOTALLY RAD BRO I HAVE A RAD IDEA THAT WILL LOOK JUST DEVASTATING. SO GET THIS, IT IS THE OLD SB BASS. BUT HEADLESS. AND FOR GUITARS THE MOST INNOVATIVE IDEA EVER. DELOS, BUT HEADLESS"
> 
> I respect the new models but damn can we have some creativity besides just "(Insert model), but headless"
> 
> Kiesel 5 years from now. All models are just headless versions of original models. Everything comes in unicorn puke.
> 
> They did however add hot pink as a 0 cost option now soooo



Let me design your next guitar. 

Hot pink with light pink burst. I call it Peptoburst. The perfect companion to go with toilet burst


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

https://www.kieselguitars.com/images/guitars-in-stock/large/130318b.jpg

PEPTOBURST LIVES


----------



## spudmunkey

...so compound radius is a thing, apparently.

12"-16", $80, apparently available on several models (no multiscale...standard scale only)

The Frank Gambale FG2 Delos variant is also an official thing now, as well as artist packages for Will Swan on the CS6, Neil Zaza for an Aries, and multiscale Amos Williams bass.


----------



## kisielk

I definitely don't need another 7 string, and don't really play multiscale, but this one from the in-stock section looks killer.


----------



## Jeff

kisielk said:


> I definitely don't need another 7 string, and don't really play multiscale, but this one from the in-stock section looks killer.


That looks great, actually.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Jeff said:


> That looks great, actually.



There's no rule that Kiesels have to look garish it just seems like there is. 

But they've actually been spec'ing in stock stuff pretty cool lately. Though some might be returns/exchanges.


----------



## mbardu

kisielk said:


> I definitely don't need another 7 string, and don't really play multiscale, but this one from the in-stock section looks killer.



Didn't prs literally just copied that exact color shift for they bolt neck model?
I was skeptical anyone at prs would be looking at kiesel, even when they started doing treated maple fretboard on private stocks a year after Jeff, even after doing a couple of "spalt" series following a surge in spalted maple at kiesel couple of years back...but this too.

I mean... Not like Carvin made the CT shape out of thin air either so I guess it's ok


----------



## Jeff

mbardu said:


> Didn't prs literally just copied that exact color shift for they bolt neck model?
> I was skeptical anyone at prs would be looking at kiesel, even when they started doing treated maple fretboard on private stocks a year after Jeff, even after doing a couple of "spalt" series following a surge in spalted maple at kiesel couple of years back...but this too.
> 
> I mean... Not like Carvin made the CT shape out of thin air either so I guess it's ok



you can’t really copy colorshift paint jobs. They’ve been around for ages, bare minimum 25 years. EBMM had it on the early JPM’s with Mystic Dream. Ford had it on the Mustang in the early 90’s. So I guess PRS copied Kiesel copied EBMM copied Ford?


----------



## MSS

I am blown away! Nicest guitar I own - and I have a collection of Mayones and other higher mid end guitars. 

The fit and finish is flawless as is the fretwork. Super low action. The pickup cavity surprised me and looks a lot like my Mayones - well shielded with anchored screws.

I got this during the Black Friday sale. It was $1786 out the door. What? Kiesel also installed my pups and set it up with my strings. Speechless...already saving up for this year’s sale.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> Didn't prs literally just copied that exact color shift for they bolt neck model?
> I was skeptical anyone at prs would be looking at kiesel, even when they started doing treated maple fretboard on private stocks a year after Jeff, even after doing a couple of "spalt" series following a surge in spalted maple at kiesel couple of years back...but this too.
> 
> I mean... Not like Carvin made the CT shape out of thin air either so I guess it's ok



I'll never understand the weird hate-boner Kiesel/Carvin folks have for PRS.


----------



## xzacx

I almost forgot about how Kiesel invented color-shifting finishes, popularized headless multi-scale ERGs, or discovered that a thin flat top could be bent over a forearm contour. I can’t believe how many brands are following their lead on this stuff.


----------



## Jeff

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'll never understand the weird hate-boner Kiesel/Carvin folks have for PRS.



I have no idea. Then again, I don’t really understand {INSERTBRANDHERE} folks. Somewhere in my years of playing, brands became sports teams/political parties.


----------



## technomancer

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'll never understand the weird hate-boner Kiesel/Carvin folks have for PRS.



Some of it came from Jeff saying stupid crap like PRS was buying their guitars and copying things a while ago... I recall some of it in the video after Holdsworth passed away and a couple others.

The idea that flip flop paint is a Kiesel thing is freaking hilarious given the majority of the guitars from ALL the manufacturers doing them just use off the shelf House of Kolor paints.


----------



## narad

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'll never understand the weird hate-boner Kiesel/Carvin folks have for PRS.



It's basically this in the guitar gear world:

https://www.netflix.com/jp-en/title/80190009

_The drivers of exotic supercars put their street cred on the line against deceptively fast sleeper cars built and modified by true gearheads._


----------



## MaxOfMetal

technomancer said:


> Some of it came from Jeff saying stupid crap like PRS was buying their guitars and copying things a while ago... I recall some of it in the video after Holdsworth passed away and a couple others.
> 
> The idea that flip flop paint is a Kiesel thing is freaking hilarious given the majority of the guitars from ALL the manufacturers doing them just use off the shelf House of Kolor paints.



Copying what? Learning how to make an uglier CT? 

Tom Anderson made a color shifting guitar in fucking 1989. Was Jeff even fucking alive then?


----------



## technomancer

MaxOfMetal said:


> Copying what? Learning how to make an uglier CT?
> 
> Tom Anderson made a color shifting guitar in fucking 1989. Was Jeff even fucking alive then?



Like I said, stupid crap  Part of that whole cult of personality us-against-them bullshit marketing for stupid people


----------



## mbardu

Hey but wait now...it's also possible to actually like *both* brands and still enjoy a laugh!
Who said anything wrong about PRS here?

SSO sure does love its drama though...no matter the kind


----------



## mbardu

MSS said:


> I am blown away! Nicest guitar I own - and I have a collection of Mayones and other higher mid end guitars.
> 
> The fit and finish is flawless as is the fretwork. Super low action. The pickup cavity surprised me and looks a lot like my Mayones - well shielded with anchored screws.
> 
> I got this during the Black Friday sale. It was $1786 out the door. What? Kiesel also installed my pups and set it up with my strings. Speechless...already saving up for this year’s sale.
> 
> View attachment 76817
> View attachment 76818
> 
> 
> View attachment 76822
> 
> View attachment 76823



That's pretty fast for a Black Friday build! Nice options too.
I thought I'd still have a couple months more to wait for mine. But shouldn't be too long then hopefully!


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> Didn't prs literally just copied that exact color shift for they bolt neck model?
> I was skeptical anyone at prs would be looking at kiesel, even when they started doing treated maple fretboard on private stocks a year after Jeff, even after doing a couple of "spalt" series following a surge in spalted maple at kiesel couple of years back...but this too.
> 
> I mean... Not like Carvin made the CT shape out of thin air either so I guess it's ok





mbardu said:


> Hey but wait now...it's also possible to actually like *both* brands and still enjoy a laugh!
> *Who* said anything wrong about PRS here?
> 
> SSO sure does love its drama though...no matter the kind



Folks do love that drama.


----------



## spudmunkey

The funny thing is, it's not the long time fans of the brand, it's mostly the "new-blood" fans. In their facebook group, almost any time you see a post from someone saying Ibanez, PRS are copying them, it's from someone who has only been around for a little while.


----------



## spudmunkey

Anyway, some NAMM recap:
-the new "semi chrome" finishes are beautiful. The dark red on the Thanos bass was probably my favorite finish in the booth. A transparent paint over some sort of metallic satin silver, maybe. It reminds me if some alumin(i)um drink cans with non-opaque paint. I would love to see one in their moss green with their emerald green burst.

I've determined that their Raw Tone finish isnt for me. It reminds me too much of...you know how the satin necks on a Taylor 1 and 2 series feel different than the 3 series and above? The Raw Tone feels like the slightly waxier 1 and 2 series.

The Osiris with the koa top and fingerboard was super light, and really resonant. 

There was a headless Delos with a new "washed denim" finish. I think it's my favorite of their blues.

The new Frank Gambale FG2 doesnt seem like very good value for what you get, and the "pearl" yellow isnt very "pearly". Nothing wrong with the guitar, but the upgrade over the standard Delos doesnt seem worth it to me.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Lol it is because the newbies are drinking that Koolaid. I was one of them for like a year and a half. @Hollowway has like 80 percent of all my kiesel 8's.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

spudmunkey said:


> The funny thing is, it's not the long time fans of the brand, it's mostly the "new-blood" fans. In their facebook group, almost any time you see a post from someone saying Ibanez, PRS are copying them, it's from someone who has only been around for a little while.


Same shit happened in the Ormsby group. I remember some new people accusing Agape guitars of copying the futura design (he came up with his salome design literally like 3 years before the futura came out) and then also accusing Padalka of ripping off the goliath, when he had been building it for a few years by that point


----------



## technomancer

KnightBrolaire said:


> Same shit happened in the Ormsby group. I remember some new people accusing Agape guitars of copying the futura design (he came up with his salome design literally like 3 years before the futura came out) and then also accusing Padalka of ripping off the goliath, when he had been building it for a few years by that point



Yeah but is Ormsby actually posting videos of himself saying this crap? Jeff has. Honest question as I haven't followed Ormsby that closely.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

technomancer said:


> Yeah but is Ormsby actually posting videos of himself saying this crap? Jeff has. Honest question as I haven't followed Ormsby that closely.


nope, ormsby never said it himself. In fact he helped shut down the idea that the other luthiers ripped off his designs.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Jeff said:


> I have no idea. Then again, I don’t really understand {INSERTBRANDHERE} folks. Somewhere in my years of playing, brands became sports teams/political parties.



It extends everywhere, people define themselves by the products they use their money on. Which is such a stupid concept considering you get no compensation for raising a brand specific flag. I recently bought a new car, and joined a few Facebook groups to just read owner experiences and it's just as bad as any guitar group


----------



## cip 123

$18000?!?!?!?

I have a JB200 with Koa wings (pretty flamey) Flame top, flame fretboard and full flame neck thru. £900.

I asked for a quote on a JB207 when it was around to get 7 string version, it was about 2.5K. These prices are just crazy nowadays.


----------



## spudmunkey

It's the specific pieces of wood, and it's sort of...kind of arbitrary.

OK, so Kiesel self-grades their own wood. They start with 4A as their lowest, standard grade for figured woods. Then there's 5A, (there used to be a 6A, not sure if there still is), and then 7A or "Master grade". Then, above or along side "master grade", they have what's called "K-tops" which are one-of-a-kind pieces that Jeff sets aside for unique, special builds. This is usually "crotch" pieces, etc.

So the koa used for the top is the most expensive grade of their most expensive wood.

Now go even higher than that for a 1 piece top and back. Wood boards large enough for that are pricier than the narrower boards they would need to book match.

So if their normal tops are $500, maybe triple it for master grade, and then double it for 1-piece. That's then $3k. Now double that for the top AND the back.

OK, so moving on from the top and back, then you have "master grade" flamed maple layers. These aren't one-piece, but are the highest grade they offer. If flamed maple top is $250, maybe triple that for this guitar's two thin layers.

Then the flamed koa body wings. Again, master grade. But even if not master grade, they charge $500 for a flamed koa top. Each of those body wings is likely thick enough to get 2 tops out of, so that means just in the body wings, you have $2K of their standard grade flamed maple...but this is their highest grade, so I don't know...maybe triple that. Another $6K for the body wings.

So just in the body wood upgrades, we're likely looking at a retail of something like $12-13k.

The neck is also master grade flamed maple and flamed koa. The fretboard is the master grade royal ebony. The headstock is also master-grade everything, 5 layers. Then there's their hand-made wood pickup bobbins which I believe they charge $300 for, or something like that.

It has basically every upgrade possible. Gold frets, multi-piece neck, tung oil neck finish, gold hardware, gold pickup pole pieces, etc, all on their most expensive neck-through model.


*Note: I'm not defending anything...just explaining how they got to that number.

*
I see that guy making the video didn't go downstairs. I saw at least one $44K acoustic...

...with a "Sold" tag.



Kiesel did have a cheaper similar build that echewed the one-piece and some of less-blingy aspects, and if I remember right it was still around $8k, but again still higher-than-normal grades for the woods.

Here's the "cheaper" one:


----------



## ryanougrad

spudmunkey said:


> ...so compound radius is a thing, apparently.
> 
> 12"-16", $80, apparently available on several models (no multiscale...standard scale only)
> 
> The Frank Gambale FG2 Delos variant is also an official thing now, as well as artist packages for Will Swan on the CS6, Neil Zaza for an Aries, and multiscale Amos Williams bass.



So the compound radius isn't in the builder, of course. Is this going to be a call in thing? Also, where did you see/hear they're doing it? So far I've not seen this news anywhere else.


----------



## spudmunkey

ryanougrad said:


> So the compound radius isn't in the builder, of course. Is this going to be a call in thing? Also, where did you see/hear they're doing it? So far I've not seen this news anywhere else.



It was mentioned in a live video on their Facebook page, either from the first day of NAMM, or just before. It's 12-16", and will be available on "a bunch" of models. I imagine you can get it if you call, but the details haven't been released yet other than the radius, and price ($80).


----------



## LeviathanKiller

MSS said:


> I am blown away! Nicest guitar I own - and I have a collection of Mayones and other higher mid end guitars.
> 
> The fit and finish is flawless as is the fretwork. Super low action. The pickup cavity surprised me and looks a lot like my Mayones - well shielded with anchored screws.
> 
> I got this during the Black Friday sale. It was $1786 out the door. What? Kiesel also installed my pups and set it up with my strings. Speechless...already saving up for this year’s sale.
> 
> View attachment 76817
> View attachment 76818
> 
> 
> View attachment 76822
> 
> View attachment 76823



Woah dude, is this with Guitarmory Pickups installed?! I swear someone messaged our page with a guitar just like this that they installed a set of ours into. If so, the pictures are much more uncompressed here. I definitely want to throw this up on social media once I get them forwarded to the guy who handles that stuff. I'll send these pics over instead of the one Facebook compressed into nothingness.

Also, what was your order date for this build? I placed mine towards the end of the sale so I'm wondering about how much longer my build will take to be done. It was a fairly simple build with a Raw Tone finish that I spec'd out to ~$1500 so hoping mine will be just as quick if not quicker than yours.


----------



## LeviathanKiller

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Guys at kiesel: " Hey NAMM is coming up. Any new ideas for models? Something new and creative. We are in a good place to start exploring with more stuff like the Type X"
> 
> Jeff: " TOTALLY RAD BRO I HAVE A RAD IDEA THAT WILL LOOK JUST DEVASTATING. SO GET THIS, IT IS THE OLD SB BASS. BUT HEADLESS. AND FOR GUITARS THE MOST INNOVATIVE IDEA EVER. DELOS, BUT HEADLESS"
> 
> I respect the new models but damn can we have some creativity besides just "(Insert model), but headless"
> 
> Kiesel 5 years from now. All models are just headless versions of original models. Everything comes in unicorn puke.
> 
> They did however add hot pink as a 0 cost option now soooo



Not to give in to the fairly uncreative new models, but what is the headless one called?

EDIT: Found it. It's literally HD7 Delos Headless lol


----------



## MSS

LeviathanKiller said:


> Woah dude, is this with Guitarmory Pickups installed?! I swear someone messaged our page with a guitar just like this that they installed a set of ours into. If so, the pictures are much more uncompressed here. I definitely want to throw this up on social media once I get them forwarded to the guy who handles that stuff. I'll send these pics over instead of the one Facebook compressed into nothingness.
> 
> Also, what was your order date for this build? I placed mine towards the end of the sale so I'm wondering about how much longer my build will take to be done. It was a fairly simple build with a Raw Tone finish that I spec'd out to ~$1500 so hoping mine will be just as quick if not quicker than yours.


Yes, it has Guitarmory Patriots installed and they sound awesome! The split neck is delicious and the bridge has a mid snarl to it with a smooth top end that works great with Recto’s and 5150’s IMO. Feel free to post it dude and if you want, I can e-mail the originals. I can’t stop looking at it or playing it. I’m pretty stoked overall with this guitar. I am already saving for another one.

My order was placed On November 15th and I got the e-mail it was ready on January 9th. So just about 2 months to the door. Pretty fast IMO.


----------



## LeviathanKiller

MSS said:


> Yes, it has Guitarmory Patriots installed and they sound awesome! The split neck is delicious and the bridge has a mid snarl to it with a smooth top end that works great with Recto’s and 5150’s IMO. Feel free to post it dude and if you want, I can e-mail the originals. I can’t stop looking at it or playing it. I’m pretty stoked overall with this guitar. I am already saving for another one.
> 
> My order was placed On November 15th and I got the e-mail it was ready on January 9th. So just about 2 months to the door. Pretty fast IMO.



That works, just send them in an email over to [email protected]

And holy cow, that is fast! I placed mine about two weeks later (right on the edge of Nov/Dec) so I'm guessing it should be ready at any moment then.


----------



## spudmunkey

Does this have any redeeming values? Does Carvin's entry need to exist?
https://carvinaudio.com/collections.../products/v112e-1x12-guitar-extension-cabinet

I really freakin hate their pricing game. Just...say it's $299, and maybe get some accolades for making a 'natural wood' cab for $299 I suppose, right? Otherwise it's $399, and the $299 is only some sale price...but if that sale price is from the moment it launces and continues forever? ugh...


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Does this have any redeeming values? Does Carvin's entry need to exist?
> https://carvinaudio.com/collections.../products/v112e-1x12-guitar-extension-cabinet
> 
> I really freakin hate their pricing game. Just...say it's $299, and maybe get some accolades for making a 'natural wood' cab for $299 I suppose, right? Otherwise it's $399, and the $299 is only some sale price...but if that sale price is from the moment it launces and continues forever? ugh...



I have no idea what Carvin has become...so weird...
I was really on the fence about the split with Kiesel guitars a couple of years back but in the end we clearly see which business is striving.


----------



## LeviathanKiller

Funny enough, whenever you purchase a Kiesel it shows up as Carvin Guitars on the charge. haha


----------



## spudmunkey

I *think* this is my neck. Almost missed it because they had it mis-noted as royal ebony on Facebook, so I only gave it a passing glance. It's ziricote.


----------



## c7spheres

spudmunkey said:


> Here's the "cheaper" one:
> View attachment 76902
> View attachment 76903
> View attachment 76904
> View attachment 76905
> View attachment 76906
> View attachment 76907
> View attachment 76908
> View attachment 76909
> View attachment 76910
> View attachment 76911



This proves there is a god, because without divine intervention you know this would have ended up with an ugly ass multi-dye color-blind Crayola burst and a obnoxiously gigantic McBevel. Praise the lord!


----------



## diagrammatiks

spudmunkey said:


> Does this have any redeeming values? Does Carvin's entry need to exist?
> https://carvinaudio.com/collections.../products/v112e-1x12-guitar-extension-cabinet
> 
> I really freakin hate their pricing game. Just...say it's $299, and maybe get some accolades for making a 'natural wood' cab for $299 I suppose, right? Otherwise it's $399, and the $299 is only some sale price...but if that sale price is from the moment it launces and continues forever? ugh...



isn't that what kiesel does too though.

no joke though this looks like a rebranded vht cab.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

diagrammatiks said:


> isn't that what kiesel does too though.
> 
> no joke though this looks like a rebranded vht cab.


You mean the non-Fryette VHT, correct? Yes it does, which makes me wonder where those $500 preamp pedals really are coming from.


----------



## spudmunkey

Spaced Out Ace said:


> You mean the non-Fryette VHT, correct? Yes it does, which makes me wonder where those $500 preamp pedals really are coming from.



We know their poweramp pedal is from the same OEM as Harley Benton, so it could be anyone, honestly. Do they sayd those preamp pedals are made in the US? Well...is it just one now that Vai's moved to Synergy?


----------



## spudmunkey

diagrammatiks said:


> i
> no joke though this looks like a rebranded vht cab.



You know what, I actually like the VHT design a little better. The top handle has a recessed area, so that things can stack flat on the top of the cabinet. The Carvin, anythin gyou put on top would need feet to bridge over the handle, otherwise it'll teeter-totter on the handle. The VHT is also birch plywood. While the Carvin says "natural wood", I'm not sure if they mean solid wood or plywood...but plywood is good enough for me (just as long as it's not MDF). The VHT comes with their own speaker, but is the Eminence speaker worth another $120 on top?

I don't like how they (Carvin, not VHT) eliminated the removeable panel from the back of their previous 1x12 cab they had paired with the V3M, so you could convert it to an open-back if you wanted/needed. I thought that was a clever feature.


----------



## Bdtunn

When ordering the thin neck option on a seven string, what is the actually measurement?


----------



## spudmunkey

.03" thinner than their standard. The "thick" option has the same .03" in the other direction.


----------



## Bdtunn

spudmunkey said:


> .03" thinner than their standard. The "thick" option has the same .03" in the other direction.



appreciate it!!


----------



## spudmunkey




----------



## gunch

I have those monitors


----------



## narad

Fred Armisen's using an Ultra Lead? This is just so bizarre. Definitely pictured him as more of a Supro / Vox kind of guy.


----------



## Fred the Shred

narad said:


> Fred Armisen's using an Ultra Lead? This is just so bizarre. Definitely pictured him as more of a Supro / Vox kind of guy.



Wouldn't be surprised if that was one of Chrys's rigs as opposed to Armisen's.


----------



## spudmunkey

His post was "Fred dropped by today", so I think you've got it. 

That row of guitar cases up on the shelf all look like Kiesel's "ultimate soft case", and that makes sense for a Kiesel employee, and not for someone with only two kiesels.


----------



## spudmunkey

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/new...uitar_reveals_how_many_explorers_he_owns.html

Interesting, for a number of reasons.

1: Other 5FDP's member's involvement with BC Rich...why not them?
2: jeff kiesel's resistance to making an explorer-style except for a high-profile artist.
3: Artist only wants it as a 7-string, it sounds like...and with Kiesel seemingly making many signature models only available in the configs they play...wouldn't it just be a kick in the nuts if Kiesel's first "Explorer" were only 7-string.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

spudmunkey said:


> https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/new...uitar_reveals_how_many_explorers_he_owns.html
> 
> Interesting, for a number of reasons.
> 
> 1: Other 5FDP's member's involvement with BC Rich...why not them?
> 2: jeff kiesel's resistance to making an explorer-style except for a high-profile artist.
> 3: Artist only wants it as a 7-string, it sounds like...and with Kiesel seemingly making many signature models only available in the configs they play...wouldn't it just be a kick in the nuts if Kiesel's first "Explorer" were only 7-string.


Oooh sick now I can get a 7 string headless explorer with toilet burl top


----------



## Seabeast2000

KnightBrolaire said:


> Oooh sick now I can get a 7 string headless explorer with toilet burl top


I am hoping for Senior Chief Gunny First Class Commander insignia personally.


----------



## Mathemagician

I mean he honestly sounds super into his gear and making playability improvements for himself. He added pedals to the signal chain, he added body cuts for fret access and “just has fun with it”. I don’t like his sig at all looks wise. But he comes off as pretty respectful of his business relationships, all told.


----------



## mbardu

that random dude in the interview said:


> So I came up with a design that should work for both, and Kiesel is going to make it



I'm sorry but what now? Is this real life? Like it_s_happening.gif

A kiesel explorer shape will *not* be kind to my wallet.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

spudmunkey said:


> We know their poweramp pedal is from the same OEM as Harley Benton, so it could be anyone, honestly. Do they sayd those preamp pedals are made in the US? Well...is it just one now that Vai's moved to Synergy?


Dunno, I think it's still listed on their site. $500 (just slightly less than the amp itself) is ridiculous if it's not even made in America. Wouldn't be surprised at all if it is SMD.


----------



## spudmunkey

Jeff's live online right now. He mentioned getting a cease and decist letter from Gibson about their Ultra V model. To celebrate, they are offering $150 off the ultra V, and now he's taking an unfinished build of their new "Type X" model to a band saw to make it a "Type V" headless.


----------



## cip 123

spudmunkey said:


> Jeff's live online right now. He mentioned getting a cease and decist letter from Gibson about their Ultra V model. To celebrate, they are offering $150 off the ultra V, and now he's taking an unfinished build of their new "Type X" model to a band saw to make it a "Type V" headless.


That's odd considering Gibson just lost their flying V trade mark...Dunno why they'd be sending anything to anyone let alone Kiesel.


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> Jeff's live online right now. He mentioned getting a cease and decist letter from Gibson about their Ultra V model. To celebrate, they are offering $150 off the ultra V, and now he's taking an unfinished build of their new "Type X" model to a band saw to make it a "Type V" headless.


Gotta hand it to Jeff, that's absolutely hilarious.


----------



## mbardu

cip 123 said:


> That's odd considering Gibson just lost their flying V trade mark...Dunno why they'd be sending anything to anyone let alone Kiesel.



Plus the Gibson v doesn't really look like the kiesel one. I could see fender (aka Jackson) going after them for the "reverse rr" or Gibson for the CS....
But that's just weird.


----------



## cip 123

mbardu said:


> Plus the Gibson v doesn't really look like the kiesel one. I could see fender (aka Jackson) going after them for the "reverse rr" or Gibson for the CS....
> But that's just weird.


Unless Jeff showed it, I'm gonna call bullshit. Just so he could announce a surprise sale.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Matt heafy just got a 8 string vader. It's literally the most stereotypical kiesel build I've ever seen. Antique ash back, burl top, gross burst


----------



## spudmunkey

Looks like a KTB board, too.


----------



## spudmunkey

cip 123 said:


> Unless Jeff showed it, I'm gonna call bullshit. Just so he could announce a surprise sale.



I dont know, man...one can disagree with his opinions about some things, and he's naive about others, and he's definitely a "salesman"...but he seems legit fired up about it. I feel like he's smart enough to know that claiming something like that would open them up to risk, if not true.


----------



## cip 123

spudmunkey said:


> I dont know, man...one can disagree with his opinions about some things, and he's naive about others, and he's definitely a "salesman"...but he seems legit fired up about it. I feel like he's smart enough to know that claiming something like that would open them up to risk, if not true.


He's fired up about everything, "We got new screws in guys, $150 off any guitars with screws in them for the next week"

The Ultra V if anything is just an upside down Jackson RR. Did Jackson get an order too? Did Schecter for their V which is actually looks like a flying V? Do we wait for the Fender Cease and Desist on the RR shape so we can get the sale on super strats?

It's a live video, unless someone is recording it, it's gonna be hard to pin down, and unless an editor of UltimateGuitar was watching, it wouldn't make a headline. 

Somethings always on sale at Kiesel, for whatever reason.

I didn't come to hate on the guy but that's total bull


----------



## spudmunkey

cip 123 said:


> He's fired up about everything, "We got new screws in guys, $150 off any guitars with screws in them for the next week"
> 
> The Ultra V if anything is just an upside down Jackson RR. Did Jackson get an order too? Did Schecter for their V which is actually looks like a flying V?



We don't know, but they went after Dean. Cease and decist letters cost pennies, and hey...if the threat is enough to get someone to stop making their model because they don't want to pay to fight it if it went to court? Then that's a cheap benefit for Gibson. Niusance C&D letters are a thing, and don't really cost Gibson anything to do. There's a high cost vs reward value there.



cip 123 said:


> It's a live video, unless someone is recording it, it's gonna be hard to pin down, and unless an editor of UltimateGuitar was watching, it wouldn't make a headline.



It's archived on their own Facebook page. At the peak, it looked like they had 500 people watching the video, and it has over 12,000 views on facebook.



cip 123 said:


> Somethings always on sale at Kiesel, for whatever reason.



I mean...their last sale was their black friday/cyber monday sale. Is 2+ months between promos not enough time? I'm not including "here's a new model, and for the first 3 days we're going to include free roasted maple upgrade".


----------



## mbardu

Yeah the kiesel hate is real around here. 
Can we stop with the paranoïa? You are free to not like the guy or brand but what do random accusions add to the discussion? 

Plus do you really want to complain about a sale? They've done president's day sales (and black Friday, and 4th of July etc etc like clockwork) every year for a while now. It's seasonal, like sales from pretty much the majority of companies nowadays... no need to put on the tinfoil hat.


----------



## AltecGreen

cip 123 said:


> That's odd considering Gibson just lost their flying V trade mark...Dunno why they'd be sending anything to anyone let alone Kiesel.


Gibson lost the in the EU not the US.


----------



## diagrammatiks

This is interesting because kiesel might be doing financially well enough and jeff might be stubborn enough to fight this. 

A few years ago Anderson got a cd about the bulldog I think and Tom just said the entire line was cancelled. He didn't want to deal with it at all.


----------



## lurè

KnightBrolaire said:


> Matt heafy just got a 8 string vader. It's literally the most stereotypical kiesel build I've ever seen. Antique ash back, burl top, gross burst



Kieselest kiesel ever.


----------



## Exit Existence

Man that shit infuriates me. I used to work for a once monster tech company who basically ruled the world in their field until they crumbled because they refused to adapt to change, and they did the same thing when they couldn't keep up. Going after the small guys on "Protecting our IP and our heritage" with VERYY Stretched infringement claims. It was a real business strategy for them to generate cash flow and try and hurt competitors. Seems like Gibson is doing the same thing instead of trying to repair the brand.

They just put out their "Gibson TV" youtube videos of Mark Agnesi checking out guitar collections that included Fender guitars to try and be like "Hey guys look we aren't bullies, we just love guitars even if they aren't ours" but it's all a facade. They even mentioned that they aren't trying to go after the small independent builders, and while Kiesel isn't a small builder by any means, they don't sell to retailers and they aren't even in the same marketplace. Gibson never has to worry about a consumer walking into a guitar store, or shopping on a major retailer's website and seeing a Kiesel for sale next to a Gibson.


----------



## mbardu

Exit Existence said:


> Gibson never has to worry about a consumer walking into a guitar store, or shopping on a major retailer's website and seeing a Kiesel for sale next to a Gibson.



Well no, but they definitely have to worry about someone like me buying 2 Kiesels before even considering *one *Les Paul HP for the same price.
Physical store presence means little in this day and age.


----------



## Exit Existence

You know that's not a bad idea! I think im going to sell my Les Paul and buy 2 Kiesel SC's


----------



## mbardu

Exit Existence said:


> You know that's not a bad idea! I think im going to sell my Les Paul and buy 2 Kiesel SC's



I mean... You don't _have _to.
But if you like guitars with good playability and a finish that will actually hold over time... That wouldn't be half a bad idea


----------



## JSanta

mbardu said:


> I mean... You don't _have _to.
> But if you like guitars with good playability and a finish that will actually hold over time... That wouldn't be half a bad idea



I'll put my 2019 Les Paul up against anything Kiesel builds.


----------



## mbardu

JSanta said:


> I'll put my 2019 Les Paul up against anything Kiesel builds.



Sure, I'll take you up on that!
I need a multi-scale 8-string headless with buckeye burl top and multicolor burst...is your LePaul of another era going to deliver that? Is it? No?
I see you're not boasting too much now, are you?

Dude...it's a joke!
Gibsons have actually been decent in the last few years.
I still don't think they offer the best value out there (I mean....3/4k for a Les Paul HP ?!?), but they certainly offer things that Kiesel does not- and vice versa.

For me? As long as they don't offer stainless steel frets, they're going to remain a no-go. And what I mean by that is I'mma keep buying a Les Paul every 6 months because I love them, only to get rid of it 3 weeks later because I hate the frets.


----------



## JSanta

mbardu said:


> Sure, I'll take you up on that!
> I need a multi-scale 8-string headless with buckeye burl top and multicolor burst...is your LePaul of another era going to deliver that? Is it? No?
> I see you're not boasting too much now, are you?
> 
> Dude...it's a joke!
> Gibsons have actually been decent in the last few years.
> I still don't think they offer the best value out there (I mean....3/4k for a Les Paul HP ?!?), but they certainly offer things that Kiesel does not- and vice versa.



Value, like anything else, is subjective. I got mine brand new for $2200, which is around what I paid for a Kiesel DC700 a few years ago. Nitro finish on the Gibson over the thick poly on the Kiesel (for the record, I do have a 2003 Carvin I've had since new), really good electronics, excellent fretwork (I'll give Kiesel an A+ there too), the Gibson is well worth every cent I've paid for it. Especially when you consider how far prices are creeping up on many imports. 

I'm also in the camp that I'll never need a multi-scale, buckeye burled monstrosity, so it doesn't matter that if a company does or doesn't offer those kinds of options.


----------



## mbardu

JSanta said:


> Value, like anything else, is subjective. I got mine brand new for $2200, which is around what I paid for a Kiesel DC700 a few years ago. Nitro finish on the Gibson over the thick poly on the Kiesel (for the record, I do have a 2003 Carvin I've had since new), really good electronics, excellent fretwork (I'll give Kiesel an A+ there too), the Gibson is well worth every cent I've paid for it. Especially when you consider how far prices are creeping up on many imports.
> 
> I'm also in the camp that I'll never need a multi-scale, buckeye burled monstrosity, so it doesn't matter that if a company does or doesn't offer those kinds of options.



2200 is decent. But your dc700 at 2200 must have been the most decked out guitar ever  . Before the last 2/3 years of price increases that would have been pretty much all options, hand-picked woods and custom hand made finish. Even with the recent price increases those still start 1k less than the best price you can get any new LP.

Value is subjective yeah, and as much as I like the LP HP (i mean... a Les Paul you can actually play above fret 17!?!?!), not being able to find a good one below 3k means I find much more value in both a Kiesel CS and a Kiesel aries for the same price.

Cheers!


----------



## bracky

Gibson could disappear tomorrow and I wouldn’t even notice. I doubt I’m alone.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

This is the kind of discourse that Jeff Kiesel fosters which puts off so many people from an otherwise great brand that makes really good guitars.

Not to mention, given past actions, I don't believe him when he says he got a C&D from Gibson. Did he? Didn't he? I don't know, and frankly don't really care. I just can't take it at face value, which is disappointing.


----------



## SDMFVan

mbardu said:


> I need a multi-scale 8-string headless with buckeye burl top and multicolor burst



Do you really though? 

j/k


----------



## mbardu

SDMFVan said:


> Do you really though?
> 
> j/k



If the choice of the most garish build possible did not make it obvious, then I'll clarify that this was a joke...I definitely don't 
Plus I'm an abysmal 7 player as it is already so I can't even imagine an 8. Although I guess i could just chug on the low string and call it a day..


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> This is the kind of discourse that Jeff Kiesel fosters which puts off so many people from an otherwise great brand that makes really good guitars.
> 
> Not to mention, given past actions, I don't believe him when he says he got a C&D from Gibson. Did he? Didn't he? I don't know, and frankly don't really care. I just can't take it at face value, which is disappointing.



And _this _is the kind of discourse I don't get. What would he gain by lying about that? It's proven time after time that Gibson will send baseless C&D letters (PRS, Dean, Tom Anderson etc). Why would they specifically not send to Kiesel? Why would Jeff lie about that? For a sale that they do every year like clockwork anyway? Hwat?

I get the Kiesel hate. I honestly do. Or at least what I understand is the _dislike_. 
Jeff is certainly a character. Their prices have increased pretty fast and they're taking advantage of their position there. 
They have fucked up a few support cases in a truly mind boggling way. They have some...let's say _colorful _guitars in the wild.

But from the reactions here to everything Kiesel, you'd think they'd have personally insulted SSO's collective mom and kicked your metaphorical dog.

"Jeff says the sky is blue so he cannot possibly be trusted"?
I'm sorry what?


----------



## kisielk

Also his father was on the livestream as well when they were talking about the C&D. Does that mean he is in on it too? Seems like a weird thing to do that would open them up to actual legal issues if they were faking it. 

As for the colors.. people order those, so I guess it sells guitars!


----------



## KnightBrolaire

mbardu said:


> And _this _is the kind of discourse I don't get. What would he gain by lying about that? It's proven time after time that Gibson will send baseless C&D letters (PRS, Dean, Tom Anderson etc). Why would they specifically not send to Kiesel? Why would Jeff lie about that? For a sale that they do every year like clockwork anyway? Hwat?
> 
> I get the Kiesel hate. I honestly do. Or at least what I understand is the _dislike_.
> Jeff is certainly a character. Their prices have increased pretty fast and they're taking advantage of their position there.
> They have fucked up a few support cases in a truly mind boggling way. They have some...let's say _colorful _guitars in the wild.
> 
> But from the reactions here to everything Kiesel, you'd think they'd have personally insulted SSO's collective mom and kicked your metaphorical dog.
> 
> "Jeff says the sky is blue so he cannot possibly be trusted"?
> I'm sorry what?


I mean Jeff lied about the showroom getting robbed years ago...


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> Their prices have increased pretty fast and they're taking advantage of their position there.



At the same time, on this same forum, people shit on Daemoness for having such crazy long leadtimes, saying it's a sign that they don't understand how to run their business. To that point, if Kiesel priced the Delos the same way the Bolt would have been from 2000 pricing simply adjusted for inflation (~$750), their leadtimes would be way way longer. And that doesn't take into account any other possible reasons to increase pricing (upping standard feature set, cost of doing business where they operate, labor and insurance costs, etc).



kisielk said:


> As for the colors.. people order those, so I guess it sells guitars!



That's the thing...I feel like Kiesel keys a "pass" there. They can make anything they want for photos, NAMM, and artist builds, and OK: shit on those...but the vast majority of what we see is specifically what customers are paying their own money to buy.


----------



## mbardu

I swear... Kiesel could go and offer SSO a full range of ergonomic multiscale 7-string guitars with nearly infinite option combinations, with a real return policy for base otpions- all that for the price of what some Indo-made guitars cost nowadays, and SSO would still find a way to hate.

Oh wait...


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> And _this _is the kind of discourse I don't get. What would he gain by lying about that? It's proven time after time that Gibson will send baseless C&D letters (PRS, Dean, Tom Anderson etc). Why would they specifically not send to Kiesel? Why would Jeff lie about that? For a sale that they do every year like clockwork anyway? Hwat?
> 
> I get the Kiesel hate. I honestly do. Or at least what I understand is the _dislike_.
> Jeff is certainly a character. Their prices have increased pretty fast and they're taking advantage of their position there.
> They have fucked up a few support cases in a truly mind boggling way. They have some...let's say _colorful _guitars in the wild.
> 
> But from the reactions here to everything Kiesel, you'd think they'd have personally insulted SSO's collective mom and kicked your metaphorical dog.
> 
> "Jeff says the sky is blue so he cannot possibly be trusted"?
> I'm sorry what?



That's the thing. It's certainly believable, but his track record speaks for itself. Why lie about _any_ of the inane minutiae he has in the past? Or, you know, that how "robbery" thing from some years back.

Again, he fosters this, on purpose, because for every person who is off put, you got a couple guys like above who buy a guitar, or want to buy a guitar, because of it. 

I never said anything bad about Jeff, as a person, nor the guitars. Yet you got all worked up. He wants that.



mbardu said:


> I swear... Kiesel could go and offer SSO a full range of ergonomic multiscale 7-string guitars with nearly infinite option combinations, with a real return policy for base otpions- all that for the price of what some Indo-made guitars cost nowadays, and SSO would still find a way to hate.
> 
> Oh wait...



What is this even? 

How do you get this defensive about a guitar brand? 

Jeff makes meme-tars. He knows he makes meme-tars. He knows he stirs the pot. He's in on the joke. 

Why does people pointing this out ruffle your feathers so much?


----------



## spudmunkey

KnightBrolaire said:


> I mean Jeff lied about the showroom getting robbed years ago...



The outrage over this is baffling to me, but maybe I'm missing a piece of the puzzle. Absolutely a poor choice of words, but they *did* get scammed, and the "truth" came out right away in the very video where they mentioned it. "We got robbed, man..."...and then proceeded to describe what happened with the fraudulent international transactions.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> What is this even?
> 
> How do you get this defensive about a guitar brand?



You know the irony of that statement right?

No-one got worked up in the first place. They have this same very sale every year and it's pretty "normal"
Yet the moment Jeff opens his mouth, SSO gets in a frenzy and people are looking for conspiracy theories everywhere.
Like for some reason, Kiesel has to be the only guitar company that Gibson specifically will not send C&D letters to...and this is true somehow because a few years ago Jeff said they got robbed when technically they "had guitars stolen from them" and not physically robbed at gunpoint?

it's like the time someone got worked up because he got regular strap buttons on a build instead of the ordered straploks. And he had to install the straploks that Kiesel overnighted him himself (oh the horror). After denying their offer to even cover shipping to do it for him if he wanted. SSO lost its collective mind 

There is no middle ground here. And I con't care, I don't own Kiesel stock. But the knee-jerk reaction of "Kiesel badddddd" with foam at the mouth at every turn is pretty interesting to point out when you compare to other brands around.

Case in point...your 'meme-tar' comment... Why the hate? Are you OK? Do you need a snickers? Did Kiesel hurt you specically?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> You know the irony of that statement right?
> 
> No-one got worked up in the first place. They have this same very sale every year and it's pretty "normal"
> Yet the moment Jeff opens his mouth, SSO gets in a frenzy and people are looking for conspiracy theories everywhere.
> Like for some reason, Kiesel has to be the only guitar company that Gibson specifically will not send C&D letters to...and this is true somehow because a few years ago Jeff said they got robbed when technically they "had guitars stolen from them" and not physically robbed at gunpoint?
> 
> it's like the time someone got worked up because he got regular strap buttons and had to install the straploks that Kiesel overnighted him himself (oh the horror) after denying their offer to even cover shipping to do it for him if he wanted. SSO lost its collective mind
> 
> There is no middle ground here. And I con't care, I don't own Kiesel stock. But the knee-jerk reaction of "Kiesel badddddd" at every turn is pretty interesting to point out when you compare to other brands around.



I think you're reading a different thread. 

The only one fired up seems to be you. I get that they're your chosen brand, but it's just guitars dude. 

Also, this whole "Kiesel as forever victim" thing is...weird. There are tons of positive NGDs and recommendations on Kiesel the guitars. The only thing that's pretty polarizing is Kiesel the person, which again, just sort of rubs folks the wrong way. 

You want crazy? Go look at the guy who was planning on seriously hunting down Dylan of Daemoness for not refunding a non-refundable deposit. That was bananas.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

spudmunkey said:


> The outrage over this is baffling to me, but maybe I'm missing a piece of the puzzle. Absolutely a poor choice of words, but they *did* get scammed, and the "truth" came out right away in the very video where they mentioned it. "We got robbed, man..."...and then proceeded to describe what happened with the fraudulent international transactions.


The way I remember it, they didn't acknowledge getting scammed immediately, and then tried to use the event as a way to sell more guitars. Yayyyy nothing like trying to manipulate your customers via guilt. Other things Jeff has been flaky about that I can immediately think of : "inventing" the same kind of fades that PRS does, saying he won't build 7/8 string headless (then does it), saying he won't do multiscale (then does it), saying that KTB board won't have the dye fade/rub off, acting like good maple is hard to source (stupidly easy to source).


I think Kiesel makes great guitars, especially for their price range but god do I detest Jeff. He's like if someone mixed Cali dudebro surfer/cholo and fratboy DNA to form the ULTRA RAD CHAD


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> Case in point...your 'meme-tar' comment... Why the hate? Are you OK? Do you need a snickers? Did Kiesel hurt you specically?



What's wrong with that? Folks love memes. The dude has a whole Instagram devoted to shots of his arm holding things. It's funny. 

Why is everything other than the exact phrase: "Jeff is a great man, who makes great guitars, and is beyond any and all commentary that might be taken as not overly reverent. Amen." some horrible put down? 

Again, he makes some guitars to illicit reactions. Some could call them "art". They tend to be polarizing a esthetically, and that's lead to it being something of a meme. See: "the most Kiesel of Kiesels" from before. Believe it or not, that's not a for sure negative. 

Perhaps in your blind rage you missed where I said the brand is great and the guitars are really good.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> I think you're reading a different thread.
> 
> The only one fired up seems to be you. I get that they're your chosen brand, but it's just guitars dude.
> 
> Also, this whole "Kiesel as forever victim" thing is...weird. There are tons of positive NGDs and recommendations on Kiesel the guitars. The only thing that's pretty polarizing is Kiesel the person, which again, just sort of rubs folks the wrong way.
> 
> You want crazy? Go look at the guy who was planning on seriously hunting down Dylan of Daemoness for not refunding a non-refundable deposit. That was bananas.



I'll take that as a "no I don't see the irony" and leave the audience be the judge then.
What is weirder:

people on a Kiesel thread talking about a kiesel promo
people not interested in the brand jumping in to call the "colorful"  owner a liar at the first occasion
Your calls about "blind rage" or "too fired up" etc...I have no idea where you're coming from 'cause I've seen none of that, but since you absolutely _*absolutely *_want to make it personal with your "Kiesel is your brand you're raging hurr durr", check out the 3 guitars I'm playing this month (for E, Eb and D) to see my supposed blind brand loyalty.




Cheers!


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> I'll take that as a "no I don't see the irony" and leave the audience be the judge then.
> What is weirder:
> 
> people on a Kiesel thread talking about a kiesel promo
> people not interested in the brand jumping in to call the "colorful"  owner a liar at the first occasion
> Your calls about "blind rage" or "too fired up" etc...I have no idea where you're coming from 'cause I've seen none of that, but since you absolutely _*absolutely *_want to make it personal with your "Kiesel is your brand you're raging hurr durr", check out the 3 guitars I'm playing this month (for E, Eb and D) to see my supposed blind brand loyalty.
> 
> View attachment 77508
> 
> 
> Cheers!



Projection is a heck of a drug.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> Projection is a heck of a drug.



Exactly my point, thanks!


----------



## Jonathan20022

Dudes this is getting kind of weird, Max isn't even remotely being inflammatory at all. He's pointing out that Jeff has historically lied (From little white lies to major ones) quite a bit wether it be to surprise the clientele with a feature that is _absolutely_ not in the pipeline. Or be it lying about being robbed, which means to have something stolen with *force*.

People had contentions with that specific situation because they got scammed not robbed. Willingly shipping them out like that with those circumstances is poor judgement and I feel for them because no one's perfect. But pretending Jeff didn't spin the wheels on the sympathy train is willful ignorance at best.

You're not even the biggest raging fanboy @mbardu so don't take this as a slight or as if it's focused primarily at you or anything. Just my two cents, they do get quite a bit of flack and this site definitely does not forget when a brand has a smear of any sort. If we had to actually quantify the rate of failure Kiesel has (bullshit statistic so take at face value), they probably knock 9 of 10 out of the park. With that 1 that's not a hit varying from minor to major issues.

No reason to go at each other's throats, I'd like to think Jeff Kiesel is frugal enough not to pay random people to be internet shills.


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> Dudes this is getting kind of weird, Max isn't even remotely being inflammatory at all. He's pointing out that Jeff has historically lied (From little white lies to major ones) quite a bit wether it be to surprise the clientele with a feature that is _absolutely_ not in the pipeline. Or be it lying about being robbed, which means to have something stolen with *force*.
> 
> People had contentions with that specific situation because they got scammed not robbed. Willingly shipping them out like that with those circumstances is poor judgement and I feel for them because no one's perfect. But pretending Jeff didn't spin the wheels on the sympathy train is willful ignorance at best.
> 
> You're not even the biggest raging fanboy @mbardu so don't take this as a slight or as if it's focused primarily at you or anything. Just my two cents, they do get quite a bit of flack and this site definitely does not forget when a brand has a smear of any sort. If we had to actually quantify the rate of failure Kiesel has (bullshit statistic so take at face value), they probably knock 9 of 10 out of the park. With that 1 that's not a hit varying from minor to major issues.
> 
> No reason to go at each other's throats, I'd like to think Jeff Kiesel is frugal enough not to pay random people to be internet shills.



Don't worry sir, I'm not worked up at all.
Unless jokes like


> I swear... Kiesel could go and offer SSO a full range of ergonomic multiscale 7-string guitars with nearly infinite option combinations, with a real return policy for base otpions- all that for the price of what some Indo-made guitars cost nowadays, and SSO would still find a way to hate.
> Oh wait...


Are considered being worked up now? I'll be 100% honest, I thought that was a semi-decent joke. I mean, I've done much worse. Well at least as far as I'm concerned it's all in good fun and there are way more important things in life 

Am I seriously the only one seeing the irony here?
People who discuss the Kiesel brand and sale here in a Carvin Kiesel thread are called fanboys (although no one pretended the brand or owner are perfect), but no one bats an eye when people with no stake just jump in to call everyone Kiesel related a lying liar for no reason ? Nobody acknowledges that maybe some people have a pretty clear anti-Kiesel fixation to go out of their way to do that? Hence the ironic "projection" part.

Anyway, I certainly don't hold a grudge and have nothing against @MaxOfMetal of all people...he certainly was not the worst measured of the haters (some people straight up detesting someone they have never met because of internet discourse...I mean). I'm done on my end, I'll still maintain that the irony is there and let people be the judges!


----------



## Mathemagician

Hey can you option 50 22 frets on a 24 fret model?


----------



## mbardu

Mathemagician said:


> Hey can you option 50 22 frets on a 24 fret model?



There are some models such as their recent strat-like bolt-ons where you do have a standard "22 frets" option. However if you're talking about something like the typical DCs for example, as of today I don't believe it's possible.

At least I recall people asking a few years ago and getting "no" as an answer..but these days maybe it doesn't hurt to ask them directly. Maybe you'll find them in _just _the right mood and they'll start doing it. I happened to me in the past when I asked for a new piezo on the CT model. It was no until it wasn't and they built it for real.


----------



## Mathemagician

Ok that’s cool. Just didn’t want to get a sales guy pumped for a sale for a “kick the tires” question.


----------



## spudmunkey

They are open to doing a lot of cospetic things, but when it comes to things like nut width, string spacing, scale length, fret counts, etc...they are less open to anything that changes the geometry of the instrument.

A notable exception would be if it was something they were thinking of doing anyway. I remember the only reason the SCB7 exists is because someone put down for a large upcharge to have it designed. They wouldn't have done that if they didn't think they could sell more of them, and I'm sure it wasn't a small charge...

But if you ask for a 22-fret DC700, the best you'll get is a guitar that's idemtical to the 24 fret version, they just would skip installing the highest two frets. 

They do have some models, though, that come in 22-fret, at least as an option. All are 6-string, though, and no multiscale.
Delos
Headless Delos
Theos
Solo (andthe Johnny Hiland signature model)
Aries
CT6
CS3/CS6
FG1 Frank Gambale sig model
SH550/575
AC375
NS1 921 frets)


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> But if you ask for a 22-fret DC700, the best you'll get is a guitar that's idemtical to the 24 fret version,* they just would skip installing the highest two frets*.



*Amos Williams has entered the chat*


----------



## KnightBrolaire

mbardu said:


> *Amos William has entered the chat*


nobody cares about bass players here lol


----------



## mbardu

KnightBrolaire said:


> nobody cares about bass players here lol



I'm not sure about that...
As far I'm concerned those detuned 8-string players are pretty much bass players at this stage


----------



## Jonathan20022

mbardu said:


> *Amos Williams has entered the chat*



23 Frets


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> 23 Frets



_Jackson custom shop like this_


----------



## ramses

hmmm .... now they are posting on social media specifically referencing gibson's assholness and their V model. Highly unlikely this is not true.

I've seen similar things in "my industry." Things are definitely far from OK for gibson.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> The outrage over this is baffling to me, but maybe I'm missing a piece of the puzzle. Absolutely a poor choice of words, but they *did* get scammed, and the "truth" came out right away in the very video where they mentioned it. "We got robbed, man..."...and then proceeded to describe what happened with the fraudulent international transactions.


I was put off by this event, as well. I think for me it's just that Jeff comes across as very greedy, and I feel that it's not a good business strategy for the company to make it so obvious. It's just kind of unusual to get used to the Carvin brand, where they were known for being super trustworthy guys who would always work with you to find a solution, and who (in my experience) didn't ever have build issues. And then Jeff is very much about sell, sell, sell, and has handled a lot of stuff differently than I would like to see. I'm not saying it's wrong - people like mbardu obviously like him - but it's just not the way I would do stuff, so it just feels inauthentic. I don't get the feeling that Jeff actually cares whether these guitars go out and make good music, or that the customer is happy, just so long as the money rolls in. I don't know if that's the case, but it's the feeling I get. I may be misreading it, I'm aware. Contrast that with the experiences I've had with other luthiers (mostly of small size) like Drinkwater/OAF, Fast, Doberman, Bowes, etc., who DID seem to care if I was happy, and that the guitar would suit me and my music well, and the difference feels stark. Again, not saying these guitars aren't good (I own a few), or that every other luthier is a philanthropist, but my impression is that Jeff is inauthentic, and is not looking for a win for the customer and himself, but mostly just himself. (The sales dudes are rockstars, though - I feel they genuinely get pumped about customers' experiences.)


----------



## mbardu

Hollowway said:


> I'm not saying it's wrong - people like mbardu obviously like him



Argh please, stahp.
I'm not necessarily a big fan or a fanboy either guys!
Instead, I'm more a fan of objectivity, nuance, and balance - On top of _loving _to play devil's advocate,

Like- you're making totally valid points, and Jeff is definitely pushy in terms of sales.
And I can only agree with you about the salesman vibes that he gives overall, but there's no denying he's brought tons of visibility and success to the brand objectively so...I guess it must be working? For better or for worse? One thing that especially irks me is all his talk of "get a new guitar, you worked hard so you deserve it - you only have to pay the deposit so you can always pay the reminder later blablabla - maybe you'll get a tax return...". For me that talk is dangerous to people with...let's say lesser financial responsibility or impulse control and I don't really think that's a good message.

On the topic of caring for the product, I have a different opinion. I have directly seen or indirectly heard about him personally redo things multiple times on some builds in order to make sure they were right or even perfect, even when that meant going above and beyond. My 2 cents is- I just get the feeling he likes to be pushing the envelope and trying new things, he can get super excited and involved and passionate...but he's less interested (maybe bored?) in the routine and in the after-the-fact support, repairs etc- and that's where the company has sometimes shown its 'bad' face on occasion in the recent past. And that's infuriating considering a lot of things could have been easy fixes and PR wins if he agreed to delegate some of that. Again- just my 2 cents.

Now about nuance, and this goes a bit beyond the last two pages, but my point is...the company has its ups and downs, like most.
Jumping to "they're the worst thing ever", harassing people doing their NGDs, or yeah, recently-arguing that Kiesel would for some reason be the one company that Gibson does not send C&D letters to (and would risk being sued for slander for like...a sale they do every year?!?)... Assuming they will always lie? Or always give problems when that's a small minority of cases? Yeah that's a bit much and it has become corrosive discourse. Again- not necessarily you, or Max or everyone...but it's hard to deny.


----------



## Edika

On a whole different note from this whole discussion and the current Kiesels, I still own my 2006 Carvin DC400T. I was curious to try and tighten the sound of the C22B pickup and maybe give the sound more girth. There was a bass response but it was a bit loose and there were too much high frequencies.

I took the pickup out but instead of the traditional screws the baseplate was glued in. It didn't stop me from experimenting though but I also did check out of curiosity if other pickups would fit, as I've always read that the routes are too tight. To my surprise other pickups would fit in. As I wasn't too happy with the magnet swap I did, I went ahead and ordered pickup rings that were the same size as the Carvin ones and put in a different pair of pickups. I'd say the most annoying part was connecting the cables on the mini switches board the have for the coil splits and phase but it went quite well.

My guitar was at the limit of when they changed their routes so if you have an older Carvin, are itching to try different pickups and are not sure they will fit, on your next string change take one off with the pickup rings and see if an aftermarket one fits.


----------



## Edika

What I meant at my last paragraph is I'm not sure if I have the old or new routes. The old ones might not have been that tight as not to fit other pickups.


----------



## technomancer

Hollowway said:


> I was put off by this event, as well. I think for me it's just that Jeff comes across as very greedy, and I feel that it's not a good business strategy for the company to make it so obvious. It's just kind of unusual to get used to the Carvin brand, where they were known for being super trustworthy guys who would always work with you to find a solution, and who (in my experience) didn't ever have build issues. And then Jeff is very much about sell, sell, sell, and has handled a lot of stuff differently than I would like to see. I'm not saying it's wrong - people like mbardu obviously like him - but it's just not the way I would do stuff, so it just feels inauthentic. I don't get the feeling that Jeff actually cares whether these guitars go out and make good music, or that the customer is happy, just so long as the money rolls in. I don't know if that's the case, but it's the feeling I get. I may be misreading it, I'm aware. Contrast that with the experiences I've had with other luthiers (mostly of small size) like Drinkwater/OAF, Fast, Doberman, Bowes, etc., who DID seem to care if I was happy, and that the guitar would suit me and my music well, and the difference feels stark. Again, not saying these guitars aren't good (I own a few), or that every other luthier is a philanthropist, but my impression is that Jeff is inauthentic, and is not looking for a win for the customer and himself, but mostly just himself. (The sales dudes are rockstars, though - I feel they genuinely get pumped about customers' experiences.)



It's pretty much the lying and cult marketing that I find distasteful, especially when added to the track record of attacking customers who have issues when they've talked about it publicly. The guitars overall are solid, and I like some of the designs and wouldn't mind owning some of them, but I just can not bring myself to support them. I've picked up 5 guitars over the past 12 months and considered Kiesels twice and just couldn't make myself send them money.

I'm sure Jeff is having a field day with this as it will play into the whole cult us against them marketing he thrives on, followed up with the plea to help them out against the huge evil corporation by buying more guitars. "ZOMG guys this could really hurt us, we could really really use your help so CALL MY GUYS AND GIVE ME YOUR MONIES!!!!!!"


----------



## Bdtunn

If you just pretend that Chris Hong Owns the company you’ll sleep better at night, that’s what I do


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Bdtunn said:


> If you just pretend that Chris Hong Owns the company you’ll sleep better at night, that’s what I do



It was cool when he posted here. He was the real deal. 

It's a shame that Vader with the messed up neck joint situation went down how it did. I'm sure it wasn't fun being the middle man between an angry customer who feels jerked around and the owner of the company who seems overly antagonistic towards said customer. 

It seemed like Chris did everything he could, but I can see why he doesn't come on here. It wasn't a great look for anyone, and I'm sure Jeff taking his ball and going home on this place is a reason for that as well.


----------



## PuriPuriPrisoner

KnightBrolaire said:


> I mean Jeff lied about the showroom getting robbed years ago...


Unrelated to the general discussion, but I actually own one of those guitars that was involved in that whole fiasco. It’s probably my favorite 7.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

PuriPuriPrisoner said:


> Unrelated to the general discussion, but I actually own one of those guitars that was involved in that whole fiasco. It’s probably my favorite 7.



They might have been crooks, but they were crooks with _taste_. That's hot.


----------



## mbardu

Geez.... Caliburst doesn't always work.... But when it works, it works...


----------



## technomancer

MaxOfMetal said:


> It was cool when he posted here. He was the real deal.
> 
> It's a shame that Vader with the messed up neck joint situation went down how it did. I'm sure it wasn't fun being the middle man between an angry customer who feels jerked around and the owner of the company who seems overly antagonistic towards said customer.
> 
> It seemed like Chris did everything he could, but I can see why he doesn't come on here. It wasn't a great look for anyone, and I'm sure Jeff taking his ball and going home on this place is a reason for that as well.



Chris is a quality dude, I've had lots of interactions with him. Unfortunately when anything requires a decision he is stuck being just the middle man


----------



## soliloquy

just like the sentiment posted above, I cant seem to go with keisel anymore due to their business antics. Solid guitars, and they are the only ones offering all the specs i like in a guitar. Despite that, i rather buy ANYTHING but keisel for that very reason.

its a shame too, as i know, in my mind, that the guitars are solid. yet due to their marketing, whcih i dont agree with, they dont seem to inspire a single note from me.


----------



## spudmunkey

Fuuuuck...


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I'm usually not one for stuff like that, but that's actually pretty cool looking.

Really good color choice.


----------



## Albake21

Actually really well done, although I'm really not a fan of the diamond inlays. I still have yet to see a Kiesel where those diamond inlays actually look good to me.


----------



## gunch

early 00s-10s Carvin quiet dignity with (some) of their current models and finishes/options = probably sso's favorite company


----------



## spudmunkey

spudmunkey said:


> Fuuuuck...
> View attachment 77864



This is the black-out ash finish on a swamp ash body, and the splatter is both their "blood red" and "ferrari" (both are plain, not-metallic colors).


----------



## spudmunkey

spudmunkey said:


> This is the black-out ash finish on a swamp ash body, and the splatter is both their "blood red" and "ferrari" (both are plain, not-metallic colors).



They just uploaded a new pic in warmer light, where it looks less purple. My guess is that the shop's lighting's color temp is closer to 4500K, while the showroom is likely 3200k max, making factory shots look closer to sunlight, and showroom photos looking closer to indoor lighting.


----------



## spudmunkey

spudmunkey said:


> I reeeeally dig it, too.
> 
> This is their old model that it's toootally "inspired by". I always LOVED that shape. There's a red quilted one that shows up on my local craigslist on the reg. It's always for, like, $900. If it's ever posted for $500, it's mine.





mbardu said:


> Naaaah..... a red quilted SB locally, really? How come I never spotted it? I looove SBs.
> I'll jump on it waaaayyy faster than you, even if I have to offer $501!





spudmunkey said:


> You probably have. I actually think it's fretless, if I remember right. Ebony board and no pick guard. Actually haven't seen it in a little while. It usually seems to pop up every 6 months to a year.



Aaaand here it is for sale again. Just not on craigslist.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/3348709765200659/

I was mistaken, it's not fretless.


----------



## USMarine75

mbardu said:


> Geez.... Caliburst doesn't always work.... But when it works, it works...



Agreed... I think Kiesel gets it right more often than not. It's usually horribly spec'd guitars by the buyer that look gross IMO.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Aaaand here it is for sale again. Just not on craigslist.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/3348709765200659/
> 
> I was mistaken, it's not fretless.



It not being fretless is a + in my book.
If I buy it, do you want to give it a try  ? Looks like you're not sooooo far. I'd just need to try the upcoming SH6 in exchange of course 

More seriously, now that the TBM5 is a thing I'm having a really hard time not just ordering one of that.
I even sold the only 5-string bass I had for that purpose.


----------



## Indigenous

Herman Li posted this on his Instagram. Comments seem to think it's a Kiesel?

https://www.instagram.com/p/B9NKC5QHS_G/?igshid=1ac0xgcx3u6lg


----------



## spudmunkey

Indigenous said:


> Herman Li posted this on his Instagram. Comments seem to think it's a Kiesel?
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/B9NKC5QHS_G/?igshid=1ac0xgcx3u6lg


I cant figure out why...even the spacing of the 5-piece neck stripes dont match Kiesel, and I dont think they would change that up.

He seems to have really been liking his PRS...

The colored finish spill-over into the recessed trem route is unlike Kiesel, from what I've seen.

The upper fret access scoop is very "Kiesel", but it's also on many other company's models, too.


----------



## Indigenous

Yeah I didn't think it matched a Kiesel mutch either, but Angel Vivaldi was calling it one on the post. He had a custom PRS and Jackson on his last tour, and he did say PRS would be making a 2nd one after getting his input - maybe it's that? The switch routing is very different, though.


----------



## spudmunkey

Even the angle of the photo with the blue-sky light coming in the side windows is very un-kiesel.

I'm gonna say...Schecter. Based on a Banshee. Maybe?


----------



## DudeManBrother

Looks like an Ibanez S series variant to me. Probably an LACS.


----------



## spudmunkey

DudeManBrother said:


> Looks like an Ibanez S series variant to me. Probably an LACS.



There have been rumors that he's broken ties with Ibanez. I don't know if he ever confirmed it.

If it is Ibanez it's at least different from a standard S or his signature model.

I'm going Schecter or Jackson, if it isn't Ibanez.

Or PRS, considering how much custom work they put in to this guitar:


----------



## Indigenous

spudmunkey said:


> Even the angle of the photo with the blue-sky light coming in the side windows is very un-kiesel.
> 
> I'm gonna say...Schecter. Based on a Banshee. Maybe?



Schecter might make sense - he's been getting customs from all the big builders but I don't think he has a Schecter yet. He's no longer with Ibanez, so I don't think it would make sense for them to send him another custom. It's also tough to tell if the upper frets are scalloped or not.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

nvm


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Well, there aren't too many larger USA shops going full customs and neck-thrus. Jackson and Schecter (since Ibanez LACS is disqualified) are the definitely the first to come to mind. Though he's already got a Masterbuilt EGEN copy.

ESP USA might be willing to do something full custom for an artist, but from what I understand ESP Japan is vehemently against that.

Neither PRS or Knaggs (Severn-ish to my eye) do neck-thru, though I suppose there's a first for just about anything. Plus he's already done PRS.

I almost thought LSL, but that doesn't jive for a lot of reasons.

Suhr and Anderson wouldn't jump for this project I don't think. They're definitely not going to do a custom body for just anyone. Same with the neck join.

So if not Schecter, I'm thinking a smaller builder.


----------



## kisielk

I'm gonna guess Schecter, it actually looks fairly similar to the Banshee GT, with a different control knob / jack layout: https://www.schecterguitars.com/guitars/banshee-gt/banshee-gt-fr-satin-trans-purple-detail#


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> Neither PRS or Knaggs (Severn-ish to my eye) do neck-thru, though I suppose there's a first for just about anything.



Well, PRS has done a neck-through bass (Kingfisher) so I suppose it wouldn't be entirely out of left field.


----------



## C_Henderson

It's a PRS, he's shown it in full in recent videos. I don't know if he's officially a 100% PRS artist now but he asked them to make something similar to his EGEN models and this is what he got. It's basically a hot-rodded Cu24 with a thinner body and neck, different routing and an Ibanez Edge bridge. They're already working on another model so it looks like he might end up going full PRS now.


----------



## TheGreatSchmidt

double post my B


----------



## TheGreatSchmidt

One of the vids likely being referred to


----------



## diagrammatiks

it's so thin
I love it so much


----------



## mbardu

Still confused about the neck through visible in the initial picture...


----------



## Seabeast2000

Wait that is the PRS right?


----------



## spudmunkey

That one in the vid is a PRS he's had for a long long time. He just recently shared a photo of a new neck-through, and hinted that it's a new guitar, made in the US, and said soemthing like, "Can you guess?" about the maker.


----------



## gunshow86de

Wait, did he cover up the Ibanez logos and put tape over the headstock tip so you can't recognize the silhouette/shape? That's a level of petty I can honestly respect.


----------



## diagrammatiks

I like that he had to point out that it's a real top and not the thin top that the S's use.

Paul's sitting off to the side with a gun...TELL THEM IT CHANGES THE TONE.


----------



## spudmunkey

That lump for the switch...I'm not sure it's any better or worse that the plastic bezel, but that rear cavity cuver...yuck.


----------



## Bdtunn

I posted this on the bc rich forum 
didn’t expect this


----------



## diagrammatiks

Bdtunn said:


> I posted this on the bc rich forum
> didn’t expect this



noooooooooooooooo,


----------



## Indigenous

Definitely did not see that coming. I wonder if there will be abalone?


----------



## Mathemagician

Honestly. I’m down.


----------



## Jonathan20022

That's way more fitting than any other brand mentioned 

I fuck with it, BC Rich's high end stuff is amazing. Hopefully they go with something slightly different than the gunslinger headstock to match the body.


----------



## mbardu

Back on topic. Did you know you could get a piezo-trem Vader nowadays?


----------



## spudmunkey

An Osiris for Herman Li, with a color shift burst on, what I think, is their Black Magic Metallic.

A few (I think) firsts: partial scalloped fretboard, fishman battery pack trem cavity.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

spudmunkey said:


> An Osiris for Herman Li, with a color shift burst on, what I think, is their Black Magic Metallic.
> 
> A few (I think) firsts: partial scalloped fretboard, fishman battery pack trem cavity.
> 
> View attachment 78209
> View attachment 78210
> View attachment 78211
> View attachment 78212


Good eye Spud. I think its also black magic metallic, looks cool! So Herman has this, the prs, AND BC Rich throwing guitars at him?!?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> An Osiris for Herman Li, with a color shift burst on, what I think, is their Black Magic Metallic.
> 
> A few (I think) firsts: partial scalloped fretboard, fishman battery pack trem cavity.
> 
> View attachment 78209
> View attachment 78210
> View attachment 78211
> View attachment 78212



I expected something much more ostentatious, but this is nice.



Dumple Stilzkin said:


> Good eye Spud. I think its also black magic metallic, looks cool! So Herman has this, the prs, AND BC Rich throwing guitars at him?!?



He could be purchasing some of them as well. 

I'm surprised that so many brands are duking it out over him, but he's definitely payed his dues and has a decent following, so good for him.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> Good eye Spud. I think its also black magic metallic, looks cool! So Herman has this, the prs, AND BC Rich throwing guitars at him?!?


Herman already has a couple of kiesels in his rack iirc. He ordered them last year or so and seems to like their guitars quite a bit. I saw a clip of him talking/playing them on twitch


----------



## Seabeast2000

Those are totally for Fred Armisen.


----------



## Seabeast2000

mbardu said:


> Back on topic. Did you know you could get a piezo-trem Vader nowadays?
> 
> View attachment 78194



I kind of want that vader.


----------



## mbardu

So now Herman has prs, kiesel, bcr, _and_ Harley benton customs? Wow


----------



## kisielk

mbardu said:


> So now Herman has prs, kiesel, bcr, _and_ Harley benton customs? Wow


He just has major GAS right now.


----------



## Indigenous

He also has a custom Jackson. He showed it on Instagram during their euro tour. 

https://www.instagram.com/p/B8hgoJvHW2R/?igshid=47kh1ey16yk


----------



## spudmunkey




----------



## Snarpaasi

Those scallops look fugly at the edge of the fretboard.


----------



## bracky

I agree the scallops don’t look well done but it could be the angle of the picture. Herman seems pleased.


----------



## technomancer

Ok the Osiris is cool.


----------



## lurè

For me that single coil in the middle kinda ruins everything.


----------



## gunch

Herman Li arms race is quite entertaining


----------



## Exit Existence

gunshow86de said:


> Wait, did he cover up the Ibanez logos and put tape over the headstock tip so you can't recognize the silhouette/shape? That's a level of petty I can honestly respect.


AND BY THE WAY, TAPING OVER THE HEADSTOCK ISN'T ENOUGH TO GET OUT OF A TRADEMARK INFRINGEMENT


That's what Mark Agnesi would say anyways


----------



## avinu

Hey quick question on the Osiris. Has the arm bevel been a deal breaker for anyone after getting it? My old RGD was pushing it for me ergonomically so I'm worried I'll hate the bevel on the Osiris. Is it super pronounced or more subtle?


----------



## mbardu

avinu said:


> Hey quick question on the Osiris. Has the arm bevel been a deal breaker for anyone after getting it? My old RGD was pushing it for me ergonomically so I'm worried I'll hate the bevel on the Osiris. Is it super pronounced or more subtle?



I'd say it's pretty pronounced...
I have a love-hate relationship with that bezel (as well as the Aries) as far as I'm concerned so your best bet might be to order one in stock with a 10-day trial to see how you like it.


----------



## avinu

mbardu said:


> I'd say it's pretty pronounced...
> I have a love-hate relationship with that bezel (as well as the Aries) as far as I'm concerned so your best bet might be to order one in stock with a 10-day trial to see how you like it.



Damnit, I don't think they'll have the exact spec I'm wanting in stock (O8X). Although, I'm assuming the 10 day return policy applies to anything that's not optioned out like crazy? I'm wanting to go pretty basic on everything besides the Fishmans. Either way I'm having second thoughts now. Thanks for the feedback.


----------



## spudmunkey

avinu said:


> Hey quick question on the Osiris. Has the arm bevel been a deal breaker for anyone after getting it? My old RGD was pushing it for me ergonomically so I'm worried I'll hate the bevel on the Osiris. Is it super pronounced or more subtle?



What is it about the RGD's bevel that you find uncomfortable?


----------



## avinu

spudmunkey said:


> What is it about the RGD's bevel that you find uncomfortable?



It's been a while since I've played it but I remember being conscious of it digging into my forearm while playing, to the point where it was distracting. So just the sharp corner really. Honestly I dont see how anyone plays on arch tops or anything with super beveled edges. Eh probably just my playing style?


----------



## spudmunkey

Oh, ok. See, to me, the RGD model's bevel isnt wide enough, and too deep for it's width. The Aries's and Osiris goes just as deep, but it wider. To my own forearm, my Aries is way more comfortable than the RGD.


----------



## avinu

spudmunkey said:


> Oh, ok. See, to me, the RGD model's bevel isnt wide enough, and too deep for it's width. The Aries's and Osiris goes just as deep, but it wider. To my own forearm, my Aries is way more comfortable than the RGD.



Yeah that's what it _seemed _like in pictures to me. I could handle the rgd but just not preferable. If the Osiris is even slightly more ergonomical I could probably deal with it.


----------



## Leuka

mbardu said:


> So now Herman has prs, kiesel, bcr, _and_ *Harley benton* customs? Wow


what is this


----------



## spudmunkey

Very close to what i've got in-coming, except mine'll be a blue-ish finish theme, different logo.

*shivers*


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Very close to what i've got in-coming, except mine'll be a blue-ish finish theme, different logo.
> 
> *shivers*



Oh you're getting the piezo? 
I'd be interested in hearing your opinion.


----------



## mbardu

Leuka said:


> what is this



Its a joke because Jeff Kiesel is pretty annoyed at the moment because of a Harley Benton guitar that just came out and looks _a lot_ like the Kiesel Osiris.


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> Its a joke because Jeff Kiesel is pretty annoyed at the moment because of a Harley Benton guitar that just came out and looks _a lot_ like the Kiesel Osiris.



Oh, ha! I actually missed the joke. I thought he really did get a HB. 




mbardu said:


> Oh you're getting the piezo?
> I'd be interested in hearing your opinion.



I am. I've got high-hopes, and reasonable standards, i think. I play eveyrthing through a made-for-acoustics Carvin AG100D, and i've got a Helix between my guitar and said amp...so I think I'm able to give the system it's best chance of sounding as good as it possibly could. So even if I only used the "blended" output, i'm still a footswitch away from going straight into my acoustic amp. When i recently sold my Carvin AC375, the guy played it through my amp, and he was dancing on the line of being beligerent to try to get me to sell him the amp, too, because he liked it so much.

That said, I'm comforted that it has the two outputs. I know that was an out-standing question for a while, since they switched to the single blended output on the headless guitars.


----------



## Bdtunn

Anyone else see what looks like a headless v from Jeff’s Instagram?


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> I am. I've got high-hopes, and reasonable standards, i think. I play eveyrthing through a made-for-acoustics Carvin AG100D, and i've got a Helix between my guitar and said amp...so I think I'm able to give the system it's best chance of sounding as good as it possibly could. So even if I only used the "blended" output, i'm still a footswitch away from going straight into my acoustic amp. When i recently sold my Carvin AC375, the guy played it through my amp, and he was dancing on the line of being beligerent to try to get me to sell him the amp, too, because he liked it so much.
> 
> That said, I'm comforted that it has the two outputs. I know that was an out-standing question for a while, since they switched to the single blended output on the headless guitars.



The ac375 was the old carvin system rather than the new graphtech though, wasn't it? The new system has basically no controls compared to the old one (so it is less flexible), but the base sound is sooo good it more than makes up for it imo, but again id be curious what you think. 

Now... I miss the sound of the AC option from my 'ole CT424 (which i believe was actually the very first graphtech they built), which is why I'm getting it on the v7...but what's that about single output on headless? Did they change the piezo system again for the headless?


----------



## mbardu

Bdtunn said:


> Anyone else see what looks like a headless v from Jeff’s Instagram?



Yes, it's a pretty new (as in ~2 weeks old without even the first deliveries out in the wild yet) model called type-V. 

Jeff actually cut the rough shape out of a type-X live on stream it was pretty funny.


----------



## spudmunkey

New 8-string 8-in-a-row pointy headstock imminent.


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> The ac375 was the old carvin system rather than the new graphtech though, wasn't it? The new system has basically no controls compared to the old one (so it is less flexible), but the base sound is sooo good it more than makes up for it imo, but again id be curious what you think.



No, the 375 used a Fishmen preamp on the edge of the body, like most electric acoustics.

"The AC375 has a Fishman® Acoustic Matrix pickup...Electronics consist of an active Fishman® Prefix™ Pro Matrix preamp with master volume, notch filter, phase switch & battery status LED."

I actually have an acoustic with a B-Band preamp with an internal microphone that I like better (the microphone feedsback like a bitch at any volume, but really calms down the piezo "zing" when the volume is lower, or when recirding direct with headphones, etc), and I liked both better than the Expression 2 in my Taylor. That said, the Taylor is for sure more flexible than the SH6 ever could be, with the kiesel simply a volume knob...but that's what EQ and acoustic IRs are for. 



mbardu said:


> ...but what's that about single output on headless? Did they change the piezo system again for the headless?



Yes. I *believe* all of the internals are the same, but the control cavities of all of the headless are smaller than most of the beheadstocked models, so they only have a single, blended output. Normally, it's a one blended output, and then when you plug in the 2nd, it splits off the acoustic to the 2nd cable. The headless system is just the blended output, so any splitting would need to be done outside the guitar. with an A/B pedal, or soemthing (the output is mono, though, so no splitting that way). There were rumors that their "non-headless" models were going to this system, too. Kiesel didn't confirm one way or the other, and honestly: even with mine, I did specifically ask if they were still able to do it with the 2, so maybe that's why this one is that way....I just can't say.


----------



## DEUCE SLUICE

I guess it's fortunate that I can't build the *exact* guitar I'd want from Kiesel, yet. Closest thing would be an Aries, but I don't like the arm bevel and it yet looks dorky without the other carvings around the horns. I haven't seen one in person, yet, so perhaps it's better in real life.

If they ever do an RGA-style carved top bolt-on, though, I don't think I could hold out.


----------



## gunch

DEUCE SLUICE said:


> I guess it's fortunate that I can't build the *exact* guitar I'd want from Kiesel, yet. Closest thing would be an Aries, but I don't like the arm bevel and it yet looks dorky without the other carvings around the horns. I haven't seen one in person, yet, so perhaps it's better in real life.
> 
> If they ever do an RGA-style carved top bolt-on, though, I don't think I could hold out.



I'm surprised they haven't yet  

A carved or radiused top Osiris would be cool to see too


----------



## spudmunkey

spudmunkey said:


> Aaaand here it is for sale again. Just not on craigslist.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/3348709765200659/
> 
> I was mistaken, it's not fretless.



It's for sale again, this time in Hollister.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Yes. I *believe* all of the internals are the same, but the control cavities of all of the headless are smaller than most of the beheadstocked models, so they only have a single, blended output. Normally, it's a one blended output, and then when you plug in the 2nd, it splits off the acoustic to the 2nd cable. The headless system is just the blended output, so any splitting would need to be done outside the guitar. with an A/B pedal, or soemthing (the output is mono, though, so no splitting that way). There were rumors that their "non-headless" models were going to this system, too. Kiesel didn't confirm one way or the other, and honestly: even with mine, I did specifically ask if they were still able to do it with the 2, so maybe that's why this one is that way....I just can't say.



I mean I don't mind, on the guitars I've had with AS, I really only ever used the blended output (more convenient), but it's a surprise for sure!

As for the bass...I'm watching it, but I'm still contemplating the new headless one. Ash in "raspberry" color with white pickguard I'm thinking. 
Plus, this way I get to not have to drive 2 hours to Hollister


----------



## spudmunkey

That things certainly gets around, though. See, I'm not crazy when I said it pops up for sale aaaallll the time!


----------



## spudmunkey

Samark said:


> Awesome, thanks. Did it sound/feel like a typical strat?



I didnt plug in, so I can only really speak to the feel. I will say that people really really seem to like "Mark's Singles" their newest single coils, which have individual magnet pole pieces, unlike all of their others with bar magnets.


As far as feel, I can pretty surely say no. If you want a trem, the fully-floating headless trem with the beefy arm at a prominent angle is an entirely different feel from a strat. Besides that, the body feels very different. Because there's simply less body acreage, your arm has less of a platform to rest/stabilize on. I noticed my forearm near my elbow had less real estate to rest on. Now, to many this may not be a big deal. I'll be the first to admit that my own playing posture, positioning, technique etc is probably objectively *bad*. It did seem to sit/hang on me in roughly a similar position as a strat.

With all that said, I thought it was the most comfortable headless model they offer. Get the 10" fretboard option, and get the 3 knob control option for the most strat-like config. Or if you dont need the 3 knobs, you can also get their control layout from the GH3 model which moves the volume knob a little further away from the bridge/pickup.


----------



## mbardu

So what's the deal with second-hand Kiesel on Reverb asking for new price or higher?
Like...A Zeus with no options for 1400? An Aries trem with no options for 1700? What gives?

Those are common cases too...are people really buying at a price higher than new, with no choice of options, just to save a bit of wait?

I mean I get it, some of those are "starting prices" and you can often offer to negotiate. But most times I've tried, the seller just wouldn't budge.
And yet those guitars disappear over time so I would imagine they do eventually get sold...
I really don't get it.


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> So what's the deal with second-hand Kiesel on Reverb asking for new price or higher?
> Like...A Zeus with no options for 1400? An Aries trem with no options for 1700? What gives?
> 
> Those are common cases too...are people really buying at a price higher than new, with no choice of options, just to save a bit of wait?
> 
> I mean I get it, some of those are "starting prices" and you can often offer to negotiate. But most times I've tried, the seller just wouldn't budge.
> And yet those guitars disappear over time so I would imagine they do eventually get sold...
> I really don't get it.



Are they from Japan? I know it's a thing there for people to post listings of used guitars in their local stores, and re-listing them online with a little profit, which is why you see multiple expensive listings for the same guitar, at all varrying prices. Although...I'm thinking that's not the case here because those prices aren't high enough...

edit: I just saw the Zeus one. No idea. "Manufacturer certified technician"...but...is there such a thing a "kiesel certified" or are they jus saying that their tech is certified by _someone._


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Are they from Japan? I know it's a thing there for people to post listings of used guitars in their local stores, and re-listing them online with a little profit, which is why you see multiple expensive listings for the same guitar, at all varrying prices. Although...I'm thinking that's not the case here because those prices aren't high enough...
> 
> edit: I just saw the Zeus one. No idea. "*Manufacturer certified technician*"...but...is there such a thing a "*kiesel certified*" or are they jus saying that their tech is certified by _someone._



_BovinePoop_


----------



## mbardu

Anyway, I received my Vader7, and although I'm not doing an NGD here, I just _have _to mention the fretwork.
I do like Kiesel more than the average guy on here, but if you had asked me a while back to pick one guitar with the *absolute *smoothest neck, desert-island style, I would still have had to go with my TA or Suhr by a hair.
Maybe it's anecdotal? Not sure if that's a general change, but now on this guitar and the prior one I've adopted from Kiesel, I can literally no longer distinguish the quality of the neck from my current Modern. The frets' overall fit and finish on those guitars is 100% (not 99% with qualifications...really 100% to my hands and eyes) up there with Suhr/TA (golden standard IMHO), and the specific shape and edges are indistinguishable from the Suhr. I couldn't tell them apart in a blind test.






I almost didn't get that guitar because of the multiple price increases, but with how it plays and the black friday savings....no regrets


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

mbardu said:


> Anyway, I received my Vader7, and although I'm not doing an NGD here, I just _have _to mention the fretwork.
> I do like Kiesel more than the average guy on here, but if you had asked me a while back to pick one guitar with the *absolute *smoothest neck, desert-island style, I would still have had to go with my TA or Suhr by a hair.
> Maybe it's anecdotal? Not sure if that's a general change, but on this guitar and the prior one I've adopted from Kiesel, I can literally no longer distinguish the quality of the neck from my current Modern. The frets' overall fit and finish on those guitars is 100% (not 99% with qualifications...really 100% to my hands and eyes) up there with Suhr/TA (golden standard IMHO), and the shape and edges are indistinguishable from the Suhr. I couldn't tell them apart in a blind test.
> 
> View attachment 78683
> View attachment 78684
> View attachment 78682
> 
> 
> I almost didn't get that guitar because of the multiple price increases, but with how it plays and the black friday savings....no regrets


I’ve been noticing on some of closeups they’ve been posting—the fretwork seems different. The fret ends are more dressed up than they once were compared to my Carvins built just before the switch.


----------



## mbardu

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> I’ve been noticing on some of closeups they’ve been posting—the fretwork seems different. The fret ends are more dressed up than they once were compared to my Carvins built just before the switch.



I mean, even though I've seen some older Carvins were the frets could have been pressed a bit more neatly, or the edges that could have been more even (slight variation in some frets), they were still among the brands at the top of the heap. The one Contour 66 I still have is absolutely top notch, and overall I had never seen glaring issues like you sometimes get with some Prestige or Jacksons.

But I guess what's shocking to me with those last two guitars (small sample size so it might be a fluke) is how even the frets are (all finished precisely the same) and pretty much identical to the ones on my Modern. It is almost eerie. Not going to complain though, that's hardly a bad standard to replicate


----------



## kisielk

Agreed, I got a Z8X and and HH2X in the last half year and the fretwork is impeccable.


----------



## olejason

Agreed on the fretwork, my Osiris is as good as any guitar I've picked up. Definitely on par with Suhr and all the rest in that range.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

Despite Jeff’s broantics, I’m saving money to get a Kiesel this year. Just have to decide on a DC700 w/beveals or a Zeus7. Ooh or maybe a vader 7. Tremolo all the way.


----------



## spudmunkey

Are you going 25.5" or 27" scale? If 27, the Zeus doesn't come in that scale length. The other two do.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Are you going 25.5" or 27" scale? If 27, the Zeus doesn't come in that scale length. The other two do.



As do the Solo7 and SCB7 I believe, if you're looking for _some _of that single cut look from the Zeus.


----------



## spudmunkey

Color-shift burst, on a black headless, double-neck, the lower neck with a trem. Both *appear* to be the same string count, as the pickup widths look similar, and the pickups on the top neck aren't angled, so it's not multi-scale. Must just be for an alt tuning, then.


----------



## Cynicanal

Different bridge routes, one of them is probably a trem and the other is probably fixed.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Color-shift burst, on a black headless, double-neck, the lower neck with a trem. Both *appear* to be the same string count, as the pickup widths look similar, and the pickups on the top neck aren't angled, so it's not multi-scale. Must just be for an alt tuning, then.
> 
> View attachment 79122



Maybe...I don't know? Fretless?


----------



## spudmunkey

Ahh, it could indeed be that, too. I hope that's the neck with the trem.


----------



## kisielk

Would be a similar layout to the Bumblefoot signature that Vigier makes if that was the case.


----------



## mbardu

kisielk said:


> Would be a similar layout to the Bumblefoot signature that Vigier makes if that was the case.



Woohoo, Ron Thal confirmed as Kiesel Artist lmao


----------



## kisielk

mbardu said:


> Woohoo, Ron Thal confirmed as Kiesel Artist lmao


I mean, as much as I like Kiesel, I think he'd be better off sticking with Vigier


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

I’m in the camp where I just blissfully ignore Jeff’s turdyness and enjoy the fruits. But it certainly isn’t getting easier as time passes. Dude needs a monster energy drink pacifier and not untethered access to social media.


----------



## mbardu

kisielk said:


> I mean, as much as I like Kiesel, I think he'd be better off sticking with Vigier



Yeah I only meant that in jest


----------



## sylcfh

https://www.kieselguitars.com/catalog/guitars/tv6


----------



## bassplayer8

sylcfh said:


> https://www.kieselguitars.com/catalog/guitars/tv6


I hate the fact that I actually really like this design. Looks better than a straight up rr style headless imo


----------



## KnightBrolaire

>April 1st
> new model 
hmmmmmmm


----------



## lurè

bassplayer8 said:


> I hate the fact that I actually really like this design. Looks better than a straight up rr style headless imo


it looks sharper and I love it.


----------



## kisielk

McRocklin getting one in 3.. 2..


----------



## sylcfh

bassplayer8 said:


> I hate the fact that I actually really like this design. Looks better than a straight up rr style headless imo




I think it looks better than the Type X, but I still can't decide because the Type X looks more comfortable and balanced to play.


----------



## spudmunkey

KnightBrolaire said:


> >April 1st
> > new model
> hmmmmmmm



It was put up on the web a few days ago.


----------



## spudmunkey

sylcfh said:


> I think it looks better than the Type X, but I still can't decide because the Type X looks more comfortable and balanced to play.



I play with my guitar on my right leg, so I need some sort of lower horn to keep it from sliding off me thigh, without needing grip tape or some sort of attached hardware.


----------



## Crundles

That's a pretty sick headless V, but yeah, I think the X will have better ergonomics too.

Is it just 6-string though?


----------



## spudmunkey

Crundles said:


> That's a pretty sick headless V, but yeah, I think the X will have better ergonomics too.
> 
> Is it just 6-string though?



For now, yes. 6 only, not multiscale, with or without trem.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> I play with my guitar on my right leg, so I need some sort of lower horn to keep it from sliding off me thigh, without needing grip tape or some sort of attached hardware.



No doubt this will be unplayable sitting down.


----------



## kisielk

Looks totally fine if you play in classical position. Or with a strap. I'd rather have this than a Vader if I were looking for a compact metal headless.


----------



## mbardu

kisielk said:


> Looks totally fine if you play in classical position. Or with a strap. I'd rather have this than a Vader if I were looking for a compact metal headless.



With a symmetric V, or Rhoads type, I'd almost agree...but based on my experience with the regular ultra V and its inverted style, I wouldn't be too optimistic.
Maybe that's just me though.


----------



## spudmunkey

kisielk said:


> Looks totally fine if you play in classical position.



I think that will greatly depend on how deep you're sitting. If you're perched forward, sure...but slimped back in a sofa, i can see how maybe the lower point would stick down further and not sit on your leg properly. Haven't had one in my hands to know, though.



mbardu said:


> With a symmetric V,[...] I'd almost agree...but based on my experience with the regular ultra V and its inverted style, I wouldn't be too optimistic.
> Maybe that's just me though.



Isn't a symmetrical V, though, typically two long horns? I feel like that would be worse than having the long horn on just the bottom.

But, standing up, to my eye, Carivn/Kiesel's "backwards" V was the only one that looks "balanced". I have no emotional connection to Rhodes or jackson or gibson style V or the players who played them, but when they are "top heavy", that always seemed off-balance to me.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

kisielk said:


> Looks totally fine if you play in classical position. Or with a strap. I'd rather have this than a Vader if I were looking for a compact metal headless.


Vaders are basically the perfect guitar to play in the classical position ime. Without a contour that wraps around the elevated leg or some way to create friction like grip tape it'll prob slide around. That's always been my main issue with the majority of Vs.


----------



## spudmunkey

KnightBrolaire said:


> Vaders are basically the perfect guitar to play in the classical position ime. Without a contour that wraps around the elevated leg or some way to create friction like grip tape it'll prob slide around. That's always been my main issue with the majority of Vs.



Do you play with your left (if right handed) leg elevated? I could see an issue if you're nestling the guitar between two same-height legs as those tuners on the 27" could extend out further and more likely to hit your leg, but if the guitar is perchec on a raised left thigh, I could see that working. Also, the 25.5" scale version has the bridge pulled in a bit so you're just less likely to bump them anyway.


----------



## Cryovillain

sylcfh said:


> https://www.kieselguitars.com/catalog/guitars/tv6



Looks like a lefty guitar, I can't unsee it.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Cryovillain said:


> Looks like a lefty guitar, I can't unsee it.



Yeah, this is my one complaint about the Carvin/Kiesel “pointy” guitars.

I tried ordering a "reverse" V220 almost 20 years ago (whew, where does the time go?) but was told they didn't have a mill big enough. They didn’t have a lefty available at the time either. 

I'm sure it's to stay out of FMIC's way, and of course the old school Carvin fanes who still dig it that way.


----------



## narad

If Joe Exotic played electric guitar, he'd play a Kiesel.


----------



## Cynicanal

MaxOfMetal said:


> Yeah, this is my one complaint about the Carvin/Kiesel “pointy” guitars.
> 
> I tried ordering a "reverse" V220 almost 20 years ago (whew, where does the time go?) but was told they didn't have a mill big enough. They didn’t have a lefty available at the time either.
> 
> I'm sure it's to stay out of FMIC's way, and of course the old school Carvin fanes who still dig it that way.


When the Ultra V was re-introduced, I remember reading people mention that back in the '80s, they used to offer a "controls on the top wing and install a right-handed Floyd" on the left-handed Ultra V's, and would even string it up backwards for you, but Jackson made them cut that out.

From an ergonomic perspective, I've learned to like the "long wing on bottom" on mine; I play in classical, "pinch the lower wing between the thighs" style, and being able to control the angle a bit more by resting the bottom of the lower wing on my calf is a neat trick.


----------



## Lada The Great

I like it. It looks like perfect guitar for a weird technical death metal band that uses vocoder and sings about the wonders of pigeons that can discriminate the abstract concepts of space and time.


----------



## Seabeast2000

That model looks sheer 80s to me. Like where is the MIDI DIN connector and the rack gear in the photo?


----------



## kisielk

The906 said:


> That model looks sheer 80s to me. Like where is the MIDI DIN connector and the rack gear in the photo?


Honestly I would order it right now if it had a MIDI option.


----------



## mbardu

kisielk said:


> Honestly I would order it right now if it had a MIDI option.



Soooo obviously not this particular guitar (the control and electronics cavity is tiny), but I believe they are willing to offer Midi on a larger number of models nowadays. Just gotta call.


----------



## kisielk

mbardu said:


> Soooo obviously not this particular guitar (the control and electronics cavity is tiny), but I believe they are willing to offer Midi on a larger number of models nowadays. Just gotta call.


I asked recently Mike from Kiesel told me the only ones they do with MIDI now are the SH550/575, the FG1, and the NS1.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

kisielk said:


> I asked recently Mike from Kiesel told me the only ones they do with MIDI now are the SH550/575, the FG1, and the NS1.


I just saw an Aires model that had it.


----------



## Bdtunn

I’m a huge fan of the rr style and I find it very easy to sit and play. I love this design but wish it was flipped, looks weird with the long horn at the bottom....


----------



## spudmunkey

kisielk said:


> I asked recently Mike from Kiesel told me the only ones they do with MIDI now are the SH550/575, the FG1, and the NS1.



Then that changed in the past few weeks, because they just showed off a CT a few days ago in one if the live vids.


----------



## mbardu

kisielk said:


> I asked recently Mike from Kiesel told me the only ones they do with MIDI now are the SH550/575, the FG1, and the NS1.



Then I guess my midi-floyd DC600 is a collector's item now


----------



## spudmunkey




----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

spudmunkey said:


> View attachment 79267
> 
> 
> View attachment 79266


Nice! Built in ramp.


----------



## spudmunkey

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> Nice! Built in ramp.



Ha, good point.


----------



## Hollowway

That V is downright cute. It looks like a baby that just hatched.

let me ask you guys about playing these headless models in classical position: aren’t you worried about all that pressure and sheer force on the tuners? They’re going to be pressed onto your leg the whole time. Or am I being paranoid?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Hollowway said:


> That V is downright cute. It looks like a baby that just hatched.
> 
> let me ask you guys about playing these headless models in classical position: aren’t you worried about all that pressure and sheer force on the tuners? They’re going to be pressed onto your leg the whole time. Or am I being paranoid?


you're being overly paranoid. hipshots are very stable/well built. I've never had an issue and I've owned 4 vaders and a zeus.


----------



## lurè

Hollowway said:


> That V is downright cute. It looks like a baby that just hatched.
> 
> let me ask you guys about playing these headless models in classical position: aren’t you worried about all that pressure and sheer force on the tuners? They’re going to be pressed onto your leg the whole time. Or am I being paranoid?



If you mean going out of tune, it doesn't happen. The pegs require a reasonably amount of force to rotate plus their structure makes them only movable using your fingers; they just won't move by sliding your thigh on them.


----------



## bracky

You don’t even know the tuners are there when in classical position.


----------



## Mathemagician

narad said:


> If Joe Exotic played electric guitar, he'd play a Kiesel.





spudmunkey said:


> View attachment 79267
> 
> 
> View attachment 79266



My monkey brain just sees this and goes “chunky-tone-mega-bucker”.


----------



## soliloquy

someone correct me if i'm wrong, but has the prices of carvin/kiesel custom (new guitar build) gone up over the last 6 years or so? Or have i just gotten poor-er?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

soliloquy said:


> someone correct me if i'm wrong, but has the prices of carvin/kiesel custom (new guitar build) gone up over the last 6 years or so? Or have i just gotten poor-er?


they've definitely gone up over the last few years. still a great deal if you pick relatively conservative specs though.


----------



## kisielk

Hollowway said:


> That V is downright cute. It looks like a baby that just hatched.
> 
> let me ask you guys about playing these headless models in classical position: aren’t you worried about all that pressure and sheer force on the tuners? They’re going to be pressed onto your leg the whole time. Or am I being paranoid?


It's a minor problem if you have the trem. I've bumped mine into my thigh or a chair armrest and it tilts it forward ever so slightly. Then I wonder why I'm suddenly out of tune only to go back into to tune when I move a bit.


----------



## spudmunkey

soliloquy said:


> someone correct me if i'm wrong, but has the prices of carvin/kiesel custom (new guitar build) gone up over the last 6 years or so? Or have i just gotten poor-er?



It depends. Yes and no. Some options have surely outpaced inflation, but for example, a base model CT6 was $1449 in 2007. Adjusted for inflation, that would be $1851.75, but it's $1749 now. And in that time, they've added the carbon fiber rods, standard stainless frets, added the luminlay side dot inlays as standard, plus they have since added the "$100 in free options" with every build.

There are a few things that have out-paced inflation, though, like the pointy models.


----------



## spudmunkey

kisielk said:


> It's a minor problem if you have the trem. I've bumped mine into my thigh or a chair armrest and it tilts it forward ever so slightly. Then I wonder why I'm suddenly out of tune only to go back into to tune when I move a bit.



I imagine it will also differ if you get the versions where the bridge it pulled in due to the shorter scale. Like the Vader 25.5" vs the 27".


----------



## soliloquy

spudmunkey said:


> It depends. Yes and no. Some options have surely outpaced inflation, but for example, a base model CT6 was $1449 in 2007. Adjusted for inflation, that would be $1851.75, but it's $1749 now. And in that time, they've added the carbon fiber rods, standard stainless frets, added the luminlay side dot inlays as standard, plus they have since added the "$100 in free options" with every build.
> 
> There are a few things that have out-paced inflation, though, like the pointy models.



that is very true. however, i think i'm feeling it more north of the border, as the Canadian dollar used to be significantly stronger than what it is today (or maybe the US dollar was weaker than what it is today?)

sigh...guess i'll wait much longer before i dip into another guitar


----------



## mbardu

Well I'll be!
I'm usually one of the guys complaining about price increases, but I just checked my quilted DC400 order from 2010, and that came out to almost 1600$ at the time.
Building an equivalent DC127 decked out with same options would give you about 1880$ give or take nowadays.
Adjusted for inflation, there's actually almost no difference and I would get the carbon rods in the neck and the luminlays "for free".

Color me surprised to say the least.
I guess everything just got more expensive faster than I realized.
When I think about it, some other brands have probably increased at a faster pace than Kiesel/Carvin. Indo Ibanez all the way to 1500$ come to mind.

The trick with Kiesel though is to find a good deal in a promo or run that matches your needs/wants. And those I feel are better than the promos that Carvin used to have. Probably saved me 6/700$ on my Vader on Cyber Monday.


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## olejason

If you don't do goofball options they're one of the best values out there IMO


----------



## soliloquy

maybe i'm not seeing it anymore, or selecting the wrong thing, but it seems they have completely gotten rid of plain maple tops that were seen on the CT4 and CS4 guitas.
a few years ago, i got a CT4-24 guitar with plain maple top with classic white finish (or aged white? or olympic white? whatever it was called). cant seem to find that wood and color combo.

regardless, i remember paying about $1800 for it, and now the same thing comes in a CT6-24 option, and is obviously about $2200 or so.

and i remember getting a CS6m way back when for about $1900. now the same thing for same specs is about $2400. 

guess my options for the CT4 are now considered option 50


----------



## Snarpaasi

Easy, drop out the basic options and charge more for eye candy. In line with the brand strategy. Yngwie said it, more is more.


----------



## mbardu

soliloquy said:


> maybe i'm not seeing it anymore, or selecting the wrong thing, but it seems they have completely gotten rid of plain maple tops that were seen on the CT4 and CS4 guitas.
> a few years ago, i got a CT4-24 guitar with plain maple top with classic white finish (or aged white? or olympic white? whatever it was called). cant seem to find that wood and color combo.
> 
> regardless, i remember paying about $1800 for it, and now the same thing comes in a CT6-24 option, and is obviously about $2200 or so.
> 
> and i remember getting a CS6m way back when for about $1900. now the same thing for same specs is about $2400.
> 
> guess my options for the CT4 are now considered option 50



You can still start from a CS3, but indeed the option is gone for the CT.


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## kisielk

Yeah I definitely think the sales are the way to go. I got my HH2X from the Black Friday sale last fall and basically got the roasted maple neck, royal ebony fretboard, and flame maple top for no cost. I only paid slightly more than the base model for a few minor options I had. Amazing value in my opinion.


----------



## spudmunkey

kisielk said:


> Yeah I definitely think the sales are the way to go. I got my HH2X from the Black Friday sale last fall and basically got the roasted maple neck, royal ebony fretboard, and flame maple top for no cost. I only paid slightly more than the base model for a few minor options I had. Amazing value in my opinion.



The past couple days, they've been doing a "deal of the day" on an in-stock. Today's was an HH2 for $1400, which is basically the base model price, but it included case, US shipping, the tremolo bridge, black limba body, blackburst edge, royal ebony fretboard. Not sure if it's still avaiable. Yesterday's was a GH3 for $1200 shipping, for what I estimated to be a $1650+shipping build.


----------



## bracky

I received this Type X about a week ago. Perhaps not everyone’s cup of tea but K can do some badass paint jobs. It took 7 weeks from order to delivery.


----------



## BigViolin

I dig it. Looks like a fun little guitar. I want one.


----------



## bracky

It’s tiny but packs a big punch.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

bracky said:


> I received this Type X about a week ago. Perhaps not everyone’s cup of tea but K can do some badass paint jobs. It took 7 weeks from order to delivery.


Nice!!! How’s it play?


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## mbardu

I'm usually not a fan of this type of finishes, but i cannot not like this one. Awesome!


----------



## bracky

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> Nice!!! How’s it play?



It’s pretty awesome. Super premium quality 26.5-25.5” scale but it feels like your playing a guitar hero guitar. So small and light weight. It’s the most comfy angular guitar that I’ve played. I got jumbo not super jumbo frets and they were able to get the action crazy low. The best fretwork of my three Kiesels. Just really nice.

Plus it’s dripping in Jeff’s blood. \m/


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

So why did Jeff discontinue 7 string floyds? I’m leary of the tremolo system that they are pushing instead. I mean how well does it stay in tune? Bonus points for any replies that aren’t from Kiesel fanboys looking for more people to join the cult.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> So why did Jeff discontinue 7 string floyds? I’m leary of the tremolo system that they are pushing instead. I mean how well does it stay in tune? Bonus points for any replies that aren’t from Kiesel fanboys looking for more people to join the cult.


my guess is largely due to lack of sales and wanting to streamline options/inventory. Cuts down on having to carry extra parts and saves money.
the hipshot trem is good, but it ain't a floyd. It's more of a competitor with say a wilkinson or other more fender esque type trem.
It doesn't have the range of a floyd and isn't double locking, so don't expect to dimebag or vai style wankery on it for long (if at all).


----------



## spudmunkey

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> So why did Jeff discontinue 7 string floyds? I’m leary of the tremolo system that they are pushing instead. I mean how well does it stay in tune? Bonus points for any replies that aren’t from Kiesel fanboys looking for more people to join the cult.



The new trem is just the Hipshot Contour. A pretty well-regarded trem, with a couple of their own tweaks like a thicker, more angled arm, and supposedly a beefier block. No non-locking trem will perform as well as a double-locking. Dive range is about even with the floyd, pull up range is a little less, but supposedly it flutters very very well.

As for why they discontinued the 7-string floyd almost 2 years ago, they've given a number of reasons. Feel free to agree or disagree, but note that I'm just the messenger:
1: The 7-string they used was first a licensed unit, and then the 1000 series, since they use a different string spacing than the 7-string OFR. They have said in the past that they have had a couple of quality issues with the 1000 over the years.
2: Combined with slowing sales of their guitars with 7-string floyds and trying to streamline their offerings a bit...
3:...and combined with trying to cut out parts imported from asia where possible...
4:...and most of their signature artists preferred the Hipshot-made trem.

Combine all those reasons they've given together, and you've got their "why".

I hope that didn't come across as "fanboy cult recruiter".


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

spudmunkey said:


> The new trem is just the Hipshot Contour. A pretty well-regarded trem, with a couple of their own tweaks like a thicker, more angled arm, and supposedly a beefier block. No non-locking trem will perform as well as a double-locking. Dive range is about even with the floyd, pull up range is a little less, but supposedly it flutters very very well.
> 
> As for why they discontinued the 7-string floyd almost 2 years ago, they've given a number of reasons. Feel free to agree or disagree, but note that I'm just the messenger:
> 1: The 7-string they used was first a licensed unit, and then the 1000 series, since they use a different string spacing than the 7-string OFR. They have said in the past that they have had a couple of quality issues with the 1000 over the years.
> 2: Combined with slowing sales of their guitars with 7-string floyds and trying to streamline their offerings a bit...
> 3:...and combined with trying to cut out parts imported from asia where possible...
> 4:...and most of their signature artists preferred the Hipshot-made trem.
> 
> Combine all those reasons they've given together, and you've got their "why".
> 
> I hope that didn't come across as "fanboy cult recruiter".


It’s all good and I appreciate your reply. I am undecided between a vader or a dc700. But if tremolo doesn’t hold up I’m just going to return it. No option 50’s.


----------



## mbardu

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> It’s all good and I appreciate your reply. I am undecided between a vader or a dc700. But if tremolo doesn’t hold up I’m just going to return it. No option 50’s.



Depends 100% on what you mean by "hold up".

It is solid, it will be reliable and it will likely deteriorate less than a Floyd over time (it doesn't have fragile knife edges).
In regular use (ie not crazy dives), it stays in tune as well as most Floyds I've tried. In my experience so far, on the level of an Edge or Gotoh.
The Graphtech floyd I have on my DC600 is slightly above all of those...but this might be an outlier- I had never heard of Graphtech having the best trem out there.

In terms of range, it will *not *match a Floyd. It physically cannot go as high when pulling into higher notes, and the system being non-locking will pull on the tuners and may have them off by a tad on really big dive bombs. So if that's what you're looking for then that would disqualify it IMO.

Oh and I forgot one thing...I hate the trem arm . t's too big, too heavy, and is just held in place by a metal-on-metal small screw that's basically impossible to set right. Would really benefit from an upgrade.


----------



## trem licking

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> So why did Jeff discontinue 7 string floyds? I’m leary of the tremolo system that they are pushing instead. I mean how well does it stay in tune? Bonus points for any replies that aren’t from Kiesel fanboys looking for more people to join the cult.


Yeah that was a bonehead move I'd say. I don't trust any trem that doesn't lock on both ends. also, you have options to change/upgrade the trem arm holder on floyds... one of the achilles heels of a trem


----------



## spudmunkey

Currently only 25.5" scale, 6-string instruments.


----------



## diagrammatiks

this is hilarious


----------



## mbardu

Is this about the not-matched neck/fretboard?
I'm out of the loop on this one..


----------



## diagrammatiks

mbardu said:


> Is this about the not-matched neck/fretboard?
> I'm out of the loop on this one..



customer this is not what I ordered

Jeff on live stream twice - stop being a pussy.


----------



## spudmunkey

So, here's my perspective of HOW it happened: the neck blanks and fretboard woods are picked separately from two different areas and two different places in the build timeline, likely worked on by two different workers at different times, and they aren't joined until the two pieces are ready to be put together. Their roasted maple varies in darkness quite a bit, and in this case, they don't match at all.

Kiesel (nor Carvin back in the day) matches woods unless it's like a Kiesel Edition where Jeff picks every piece of wood. For example, years ago, they didn't match mahogany body and neck woods on the carved top models, and if they ended up looking different, would actually stain them to get them closer, even if the person didn't ask for any stain. My understanding is that they stopped doing that a few years back.

a) It would be less of an issue if their website was better as explaining options, and potential down-sides. Roasted neck wood doesn't void the 10-day trial, but does have a re-stocking fee.
b) I don't doubt that they are both roasted, like so many seem to think. I've seen roasted maple that light, and that dark.
c) Kiesel offered 3 options: keep it, return it for a re-build but forefeit the restocking fee, or return it for the full refund, but then not be able to purchase another.

note: Don't read any opinion or intent in the post above.


----------



## Jonathan20022

diagrammatiks said:


> this is hilarious



Can't wait for the apologists to rationalize this one 






Provided by the customer*



diagrammatiks said:


> customer this is not what I ordered
> 
> Jeff on live stream twice - stop being a pussy.



His exact wording was,

"We gave the guy 3 options
1) Keep the guitar and quit *whining*
2) Send it back pay the restock fee, and get rebuild a done (*Reinforcing luck of the draw wood selection)*
3) We're gonna refund you, part ways, and never sell you another instrument"

Kiesel doesn't build better instruments than anyone, there are more options than ever. Hard to believe people gladly put their hard earned money on this russian roulette style custom guitar order. This is the person you're supporting, the guy is a massive dick and isn't ashamed of acting like one.


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## gunshow86de

Took me a minute to figure out what was wrong.


----------



## Seabeast2000

spudmunkey said:


> So, here's my perspective of HOW it happened: the neck blanks and fretboard woods are picked separately from two different areas and two different places in the build timeline, likely worked on by two different workers at different times, and they aren't joined until the two pieces are ready to be put together. Their roasted maple varies in darkness quite a bit, and in this case, they don't match at all.
> 
> Kiesel (nor Carvin back in the day) matches woods unless it's like a Kiesel Edition where Jeff picks every piece of wood. For example, years ago, they didn't match mahogany body and neck woods on the carved top models, and if they ended up looking different, would actually stain them to get them closer, even if the person didn't ask for any stain. My understanding is that they stopped doing that a few years back.
> 
> a) It would be less of an issue if their website was better as explaining options, and potential down-sides. Roasted neck wood doesn't void the 10-day trial, but does have a re-stocking fee.
> b) I don't doubt that they are both roasted, like so many seem to think. I've seen roasted maple that light, and that dark.
> c) Kiesel offered 3 options: keep it, return it for a re-build but forefeit the restocking fee, or return it for the full refund, but then not be able to purchase another.
> 
> note: Don't read any opinion or intent in the post above.



hey man, quit trying to get me into your cult man.


----------



## mastapimp

gunshow86de said:


> Took me a minute to figure out what was wrong.


LOL...I'd have never guessed those were both roasted maple if anyone told me based on that picture. Without the context, it looks like plain maple board on a mahogany neck. The sad thing is, if this was a personal build for Jeff, Kiesel artist, or an employee's order, it would never leave the shop like that.


----------



## mbardu

OK so business as usual then 

Customer knowingly orders something either non-refundable, or with a restock fee, doesn't get what he had pictured in his mind, and as a result wants to walk back on the "non refundable" or "restock fee" part of his order. The best customer service move would 100% have been to make an exception, but Jeff doesn't want to set a precedent, and then he adds his usual ego and "color" to the interactions with the customer and here we are. Nothing new under the sun.

Same as always with Kiesel: if you want the full return policy with 0 risk, then don't order something non returnable or with a restock fee. It's like right there in the words. That's still thousands of combinations, and Kiesel is still pretty much the only manufacturer to even offer the 10-day trial under those circumstances. Now if you know what you are doing and want to roll the dice on something that they present as risky, then you have to assume some part of the unknown that comes with it. They mention it on the website, or on the phone, and in the invoice that every customer gets. And nobody forces your hand.
If you want 0 variability on your custom, just order an Aristides- everyone else will have some variability 

What's very shitty IMO is to have an argument with the customer and berate him in public for all to see. That's purely ego driven, and I cannot understand the logic. Is there even a logic? Is there a part of the customer base that appreciates that type of behavior? Beyond me...

Why the immediate leap to "Kiesel doesn't build better instruments than anyone" though?
I kinda get the "that's what you support if you're guying from them" - fair enough. I mean, I don't know if the execs at Ibanez or FMIC, or people like Chapman, or the literal droves of custom builders who literally ran away with customers' money etc are better people to support but whatever. Now even so, how does this have anything to do with the quality of the guitars? I still can't think of a better buy for the money than a 1300$ Kiesel, yet around here it's always "_Look! Jeff treated that guy really bad, it was the worst. Therefore their guitars must really be poop_". I relate 100% to the first part of the statement but I cannot reconcile the second part.


----------



## mbardu

The906 said:


> hey man, quit trying to get me into your cult man.



No that's my job.
Spud is the more objective one


----------



## Jonathan20022

mbardu said:


> Customer knowingly orders something either non-refundable, or with a restock fee, doesn't get what he had pictured in his mind, and as a result wants to walk back on the "non refundable" or "restock fee" part of his order. The best customer service move would 100% have been to make an exception, but Jeff doesn't want to set a precedent, and then he adds his usual ego and "color" to the interactions with the customer and here we are. Nothing new under the sun.



To your first point, until anyone can prove that fretboard is roasted it's not. You might be able to find a select few examples of fretboards looking that way on a finished guitar, but to my eye that looks as pale as my RG550's fretboard. There's no reason to circle this point really until the owner measures it's moisture content and proves it's within roasted maple's expectations.

But he in fact paid for Roasted Maple, and that board is light enough to put whether he got what he ordered or not into question. I think that's all there is to it at this point, but you're right the correct move is to apologize and offer a fair resolution. Something as simple as some merch in the case of the replacement, and a few seconds of Jeff's precious time to make sure that the right board is picked and the color is at least close. The guy's owned like 30 Carvins/Kiesels, I feel obliged to help customers in my industry for far less money invested, but Jeff seems to lack the basic level of empathy and understanding of how to handle customers.



mbardu said:


> Why the immediate leap to "Kiesel doesn't build better instruments than anyone" though?
> I kinda get the "that's what you support if you're guying from them" - fair enough. I mean, I don't know if the execs at Ibanez or FMIC, or people like Chapman, or the literal droves of custom builders who literally ran away with customers' money etc are better people to support but whatever. Now even so, how does this have anything to do with the quality of the guitars? I still can't think of a better buy for the money than a 1300 Kiesel, yet around here it's always "_Look! Jeff treated that guy really bad, it was the worst. Therefore their guitars must really be poop_". I relate 100% to the first part of the statement but I cannot reconcile the second part.



The leap is because as mentioned, the guitar market is as varied as it's ever been and provides amazing instruments from countless brands in that same price bracket. There is zero merit in my eyes to support Kiesel when you can be left in the dust at a whim, especially when you've ordered close to 30 instruments over decades with them. If I hold no value as a customer, then there is competition that will satisfy my guitar needs just as well (and exceed them). It's just weird that you're using some kind of value weight to justify still ordering from them, yeah you can get a basic semi custom for just over 1k in your favorite color, custom is a luxury. But ordering from Kiesel presents an inherent risk that many have run into, I guess you can't see that until you're on the receiving end of Jeff's firm replies that you can deal or get bent.
*
"Look! Jeff treated that guy really bad, it was the worst. Therefore their guitars must really be poop"*

That's an interesting quote, I certainly didn't say it. I had 6 Kiesels, 3 of which were K Series and they were fantastic guitars. My exact wording is just a few comments above, it illustrates Jeff as the problem in their business model. His reluctance to go the extra mile when they fuck up just points to some childish Trump-like hard stance for brownie points with a certain crowd, or that maybe they are not actually doing that well financially where eating the cost of a single guitar to make it right isn't feasible.


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> The leap is because as mentioned, the guitar market is as varied as it's ever been and provides amazing instruments from countless brands in that same price bracket. There is zero merit in my eyes to support Kiesel when you can be left in the dust at a whim, especially when you've ordered close to 30 instruments over decades with them. If I hold no value as a customer, then there is competition that will satisfy my guitar needs just as well (and exceed them). It's just weird that you're using some kind of value weight to justify still ordering from them, yeah you can get a basic semi custom for just over 1k in your favorite color, custom is a luxury. But ordering from Kiesel presents an inherent risk that many have run into, I guess you can't see that until you're on the receiving end of Jeff's firm replies that you can deal or get bent.
> *
> "Look! Jeff treated that guy really bad, it was the worst. Therefore their guitars must really be poop"*
> 
> That's an interesting quote, I certainly didn't say it. I had 6 Kiesels, 3 of which were K Series and they were fantastic guitars. My exact wording is just a few comments above, it illustrates Jeff as the problem in their business model. His reluctance to go the extra mile when they fuck just points to some childish Trump-like hard stance for brownie points with a certain crowd, or that maybe they are not actually doing that well financially where eating the cost of a single guitar to make it right isn't feasible.



We're 100% in agreement re: Customer Service. And the saddest part is that as far as i recall, Carvin used to be better on that front, at a time when I suspect financially their margins may actually have been lower too.

As per the "quote", it was not specifically and only aimed at your message- more so the general sentiment towards Kiesel that has a hard time separating both aspects.

To me "ordering from Kiesel presents an inherent risk that many have run into" is not true. Or maybe incomplete. It's more "ordering _something non returnable or with a restock fee_ from Kiesel presents an inherent risk that many have run into", but then that shouldn't be a surprise because that's what buyers are told upfront. And let's be clear...the _risk _is *not *to:

get an unplayable guitar
get a guitar with a missing fret
get a guitar with neck pocket gaps the width of the Nile river
get your money stolen with no instrument in return by a builder who disappears
have to wait 3 years for a build
get a guitar with a finish that falls off
etc
The risk is to get a guitar that doesn't quite look as you had pictured it in your mind, or maybe is heavier than you hoped (that's me with my latest Vader) etc. You'll still get a great instrument that works as it should, or else it will be fixed under warranty. And that's pretty much a feature of the way they are setup. They are not a true custom shop, and cannot do all the crazy options under the sun, but they have a consistent and proven process to churn out hundreds and hundreds of guitar with very consistent quality with pretty much all key steps (CNC, finish, fretwork etc) nailed down to almost a science.

With that said then, order a regular returnable build, and this is where you and I will disagree on the "provides amazing instruments from countless brands in that same price bracket". Like you said, for a bit over 1k$, you get a brand new basic Kiesel customized to your tastes. The cheapest Ibanez indo Premium I could find brand new today would probably be 1300$, and the Kiesel will blow it away. And if you don't like the Kiesel, you can return it no questions asked (again,_ assuming you didn't specifically pick something non-returnable despite the warnings_).
I don't understand how you'd be left in the dust at a whim in that scenario. And Jeff's shenanigans have no bearing on that, yet we usually conflate those things.

I am picking the Premiums as an example because I genuinely liked the range and the value they offered a couple of years ago (still very much like the premiums I have). Same thing for the Schecter elites. If you do have examples of clear consistent better value you can find nowadays, I'm genuinely interested. I doesn't have to offer customizability, because I'm not aware of anyone offering what Kiesel does, but that doesn't hurt either.


----------



## bostjan

I've said it for years, but the problem here isn't so much with QC or whatever, it's with the way Kiesel handles these issues. Jeff is like the guy who goes with you and your friends to the bar and just wants to get in a fight, whilst everyone else just wants to relax.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

So for those not following the drama on this one, is the TL;DR issue that the customer says it’s not got the roasted maple board that he ordered an Kiesel say it has? 

And then the subsequent fall out of what Kiesel are prepared to follow up with?


----------



## Jonathan20022

mbardu said:


> We're 100% in agreement re: Customer Service. And the saddest part is that as far as i recall, Carvin used to be better on that front, at a time when I suspect financially their margins may actually have been lower too.
> 
> As per the "quote", it was not specifically and only aimed at your message- more so the general sentiment towards Kiesel that has a hard time separating both aspects.
> 
> To me "ordering from Kiesel presents an inherent risk that many have run into" is not true. Or maybe incomplete. It's more "ordering _something non returnable or with a restock fee_ from Kiesel presents an inherent risk that many have run into", but then that shouldn't be a surprise because that's what buyers are told upfront. And let's be clear...the _risk _is *not *to:
> 
> get an unplayable guitar
> get a guitar with a missing fret
> get a guitar with neck pocket gaps the width of the Nile river
> get your money stolen with no instrument in return by a builder who disappears
> have to wait 3 years for a build
> get a guitar with a finish that falls off
> etc
> The risk is to get a guitar that doesn't quite look as you had pictured it in your mind, or maybe is heavier than you hoped (that's me with my latest Vader) etc. You'll still get a great instrument that works as it should, or else it will be fixed under warranty. And that's pretty much a feature of the way they are setup. They are not a true custom shop, and cannot do all the crazy options under the sun, but they have a consistent and proven process to churn out hundreds and hundreds of guitar with very consistent quality with pretty much all key steps (CNC, finish, fretwork etc) nailed down to almost a science.
> 
> With that said then, order a regular returnable build, and this is where you and I will disagree on the "provides amazing instruments from countless brands in that same price bracket". Like you said, for a bit over 1k$, you get a brand new basic Kiesel customized to your tastes. The cheapest Ibanez indo Premium I could find brand new today would probably be 1300$, and the Kiesel will blow it away. And if you don't like the Kiesel, you can return it no questions asked (again,_ assuming you didn't specifically pick something non-returnable despite the warnings_).
> I don't understand how you'd be left in the dust at a whim in that scenario. And Jeff's shenanigans have no bearing on that, yet we usually conflate those things.
> 
> I am picking the Premiums as an example because I genuinely liked the range and the value they offered a couple of years ago (still very much like the premiums I have). Same thing for the Schecter elites. If you do have examples of clear consistent better value you can find nowadays, I'm genuinely interested. I doesn't have to offer customizability, because I'm not aware of anyone offering what Kiesel does, but that doesn't hurt either.



It's kind of disingenuous to list impossibilities and ignore actual instances of issues that have 100% happened.

The negatives that did happen aren't just aesthetic or forgettable in nature, pretending it's exclusive to op50/non-returnables doesn't bode well either for your case. Wether or not the Kiesel "blows away" the competition is subjective in the first place, and I also disagree on many levels. Glad they make you happy at that price range, but as I mentioned they're not the only ones building amazing guitars in the price range of 1k+.


----------



## xzacx

mbardu said:


> Customer knowingly orders something either non-refundable, or with a restock fee, doesn't get what he had pictured in his mind, and as a result wants to walk back on the "non refundable" or "restock fee" part of his order. The best customer service move would 100% have been to make an exception, but Jeff doesn't want to set a precedent, and then he adds his usual ego and "color" to the interactions with the customer and here we are. Nothing new under the sun.



The thing is though, ordering something non-returnable or that has a fee doesn't give Kiesel license to give you whatever the hell they want that isn't what you ordered. Whether that board is actually roasted or not, the reasonable thing to do would be to not stick someone with something that doesn’t look like what they paid extra for.


mbardu said:


> We're 100% in agreement re: Customer Service. And the saddest part is that as far as i recall, Carvin used to be better on that front, at a time when I suspect financially their margins may actually have been lower too.
> 
> As per the "quote", it was not specifically and only aimed at your message- more so the general sentiment towards Kiesel that has a hard time separating both aspects.
> 
> To me "ordering from Kiesel presents an inherent risk that many have run into" is not true. Or maybe incomplete. It's more "ordering _something non returnable or with a restock fee_ from Kiesel presents an inherent risk that many have run into", but then that shouldn't be a surprise because that's what buyers are told upfront. And let's be clear...the _risk _is *not *to:
> 
> get an unplayable guitar
> get a guitar with a missing fret
> get a guitar with neck pocket gaps the width of the Nile river
> get your money stolen with no instrument in return by a builder who disappears
> have to wait 3 years for a build
> get a guitar with a finish that falls off
> etc
> The risk is to get a guitar that doesn't quite look as you had pictured it in your mind, or maybe is heavier than you hoped (that's me with my latest Vader) etc. You'll still get a great instrument that works as it should, or else it will be fixed under warranty. And that's pretty much a feature of the way they are setup. They are not a true custom shop, and cannot do all the crazy options under the sun, but they have a consistent and proven process to churn out hundreds and hundreds of guitar with very consistent quality with pretty much all key steps (CNC, finish, fretwork etc) nailed down to almost a science.
> 
> With that said then, order a regular returnable build, and this is where you and I will disagree on the "provides amazing instruments from countless brands in that same price bracket". Like you said, for a bit over 1k$, you get a brand new basic Kiesel customized to your tastes. The cheapest Ibanez indo Premium I could find brand new today would probably be 1300$, and the Kiesel will blow it away. And if you don't like the Kiesel, you can return it no questions asked (again,_ assuming you didn't specifically pick something non-returnable despite the warnings_).
> I don't understand how you'd be left in the dust at a whim in that scenario. And Jeff's shenanigans have no bearing on that, yet we usually conflate those things.
> 
> I am picking the Premiums as an example because I genuinely liked the range and the value they offered a couple of years ago (still very much like the premiums I have). Same thing for the Schecter elites. If you do have examples of clear consistent better value you can find nowadays, I'm genuinely interested. I doesn't have to offer customizability, because I'm not aware of anyone offering what Kiesel does, but that doesn't hurt either.



People love to bring up the 23-fret Kelly, but the equivalent here would be if Jackson said “sorry, you’re stuck” rather than offering a rebuild, which they also do on colors or tops people aren’t happy with. So yeah, I’d rather take a risk with a brand I trust will make things right eventually than one that will tell me “too bad, don’t buy from us anymore.”


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## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> It's kind of disingenuous to list impossibilities and ignore actual instances of issues that have 100% happened.
> 
> The negatives that did happen aren't just aesthetic or forgettable in nature, pretending it's exclusive to op50/non-returnables doesn't bode well either for your case. Wether or not the Kiesel "blows away" the competition is subjective in the first place, and I also disagree on many levels. Glad they make you happy at that price range, but as I mentioned they're not the only ones building amazing guitars in the price range of 1k+.



I mean, that was meant 50% as a joke yes, but definitely not trying to be hostile or disingenuous.

I'm sincerely interested if you have real examples of structural or generally non cosmetic issues that were not addressed under warranty by Kiesel. I do remember a couple of episodes of drama here... I believe at least one for a neck and maybe one for the hipshot bridge? But if I recall properly, those were fixed, including them paying international return shipping to fix the issues in some cases. And this is not an opt50/non-returnable issue at all- why do you bring that up? If there is something wrong with the guitar (that is not cosmetic), it will be addressed under warranty, returnable or not. That also is more than what you would get from most brands. An issue with electronics or stuck truss rod with a guitar you bought on Sweetwater 2 years ago? Who's going to help you out?

And same for your second point, you don't have to if this was just a figure of speech on your end, but if you have actual examples in the 1k/1.5k range (1k+ doesn't mean much...I mean, 5k is 1k+ but that's not what we're talking about...) that gives a similar quality and better value, I'm genuinely interested. I'm always looking to try new things, so if you know of something for example that could be better than a base Delos since I'm looking for a modern strat-like, you would actually be helping me out. You must at least have some ideas if you say that there are so many options? From what I've checked, the Ibanez AZ i've tried were not particularly good (and they are more expensive, even the premium, not even talking about the prestige), and a Suhr standard pro (I kinda miss mine) will be basically the same playability as a Delos, obviously with the Suhr cachet, but twice to 3 times the price so...


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## mbardu

xzacx said:


> The thing is though, ordering something non-returnable or that has a fee doesn't give Kiesel license to give you whatever the hell they want that isn't what you ordered. Whether that board is actually roasted or not, the reasonable thing to do would be to not stick someone with something that doesn’t look like what they paid extra for.



Agreed- it doesn't. If this is indeed not roasted maple then they should do something about it.
If it is but just a particularly "blonde" one? Then yeah, their customer service should have made a better call and it's mind boggling that they don't see the good PR of fixing it as outweighing the effort or $$ to make it right. But apparently they don't, and since they were upfront that there was a restock fee that any buyer should be aware of, they decide to take the PR hit rather than the fee. I would not do it that way if I were in their shoes, but that's their logic.
Oh, and regardless of the above, making a particular client dispute public the way Jeff is doing is really a bad look.
PS: the option itself was probably not "for a fee", they have been having frequent free roasted necks and boards for months now.



> People love to bring up the 23-fret Kelly, but the equivalent here would be if Jackson said “sorry, you’re stuck” rather than offering a rebuild, which they also do on colors or tops people aren’t happy with. So yeah, I’d rather take a risk with a brand I trust will make things right eventually than one that will tell me “too bad, don’t buy from us anymore.”



I mean we can definitely talk about Jackson. There are definitely cases where they will absolutely refuse to redo a guitar or a finish. For a rebuild or refinish to happen, you kinda have to 1-be lucky, 2-go through a great dealer, and 3-be VERY VERY patient.
As for risk and QC, well since we're talking about the famous Jackson cases, then let's agree to disagree. I would definitely any day of the week a thousand times over and over go with a brand where a QC mishap is limited to "oh this roasted maple looks much lighter than this other piece" or "this quilted maple top is not very 3D" than one where it's miscounting the frets on a guitar or where the finish is so bad it could have been done by a 3 year old. I would bet with you that for a missing fret or the terrible finishes we've seen on botched Jackson CS, Kiesel would 100% rebuild with no question asked, nobody would be stuck with anything, and it would take 5 weeks, not 2 years. And no particular hate for Jackson in general here- that's coming from someone who still thinks the Kelly is one of the prettiest designs ever. But for custom? To each their own I guess.
If I was to put that type of money down and wait that long I'd just go ESP custom and be done with it as far as I'm concerned. But that's a whole other ballpark.


----------



## Hollowway

For me the take away was that the customer reached out to Kiesel 3 times to ask about it, and never got a response. Then Jeff went on IG live and told him to “man up.” The issue here for me is not the mismatch. It’s, once again, Jeff’s ego getting in the way of his business. He has no business being the face of customer service, and it’s shocking that he can’t see that. He’s leaving so much money on the table because this is just another poor business decision on Jeff’s part. You don’t put the egotistical asshole in charge of cS. Jeff is a great hype man. Let him do that, and get someone else in charge of CS. He will lose more money from incidents like this than he will gain.


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## xzacx

mbardu said:


> I mean we can definitely talk about Jackson. There are definitely cases where they will absolutely refuse to redo a guitar or a finish. For a rebuild or refinish to happen, you kinda have to 1-be lucky, 2-go through a great dealer, and 3-be VERY VERY patient.
> As for risk and QC, well since we're talking about the famous Jackson cases, then let's agree to disagree. I would definitely any day of the week a thousand times over and over go with a brand where a QC mishap is limited to "oh this roasted maple looks much lighter than this other piece" or "this quilted maple top is not very 3D" than one where it's miscounting the frets on a guitar or where the finish is so bad it could have been done by a 3 year old. I would bet with you that for a missing fret or the terrible finishes we've seen on botched Jackson CS, Kiesel would 100% rebuild with no question asked, nobody would be stuck with anything, and it would take 5 weeks, not 2 years. And no particular hate for Jackson in general here- that's coming from someone who still thinks the Kelly is one of the prettiest designs ever. But for custom? To each their own I guess.
> If I was to put that type of money down and wait that long I'd just go ESP custom and be done with it as far as I'm concerned. But that's a whole other ballpark.



I've never seen a case of Jackson refusing rebuilds (not saying it hasn't happened, just haven't seen that I can recall off hand), and I know people who've had multiple rebuilds based on color alone on the same guitar. (I've also never seen them publicly shame customers or claim they were robbed as a marketing tactic.) This absolutely brings up the point that they should get it right in the first place, but we've all seen examples of Kiesel refusing this very thing. There's even a very recent example right here on this board of Jackson offering a rebuild based on top/color.


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## Hollowway

The original idea of option 50 was for crazy stuff that, were it returned, would have made the guitar difficult to sell as an in stock build. But Jeff is making most new features non/returnable. I cannot figure out why, as most of us fall in love with a guitar as soon as we see it in person. It’s a MUCH better business decision to give customers peace of mind for big purchase decisions than tell them they’re buying something non-returnable, and if they post any criticism they’ll be called a pussy on social media. Jeff has far too fragile of an ego to be running the business. They could be one of the largest guitar manufacturers if he was in charge of hype, but someone else in charge of the rest. But he’ll never concede that.


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## Seabeast2000

Sales 101: Hunting and farming. Some guys are good at one and not at the other. Tough though when that guy is the owner.


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## Albake21

Oh man I've been following this one in the Kiesel Facebook group. Hell even the Kiesel sheep are pretty pissed off right now with many no longer ordering a guitar that was planned. What an absolute joke with the way this is being handled, and what an absolute joke with the way that guitar looks. Just goes to show that Kiesel Guitars are nothing more than an assembly line with many options. This is something I've come to realize throughout the years. Kiesel is literally just a guitar assembly, no different than those in Asian countries. The only difference being you get to choose your options. This is exactly why these guitars have no detail to them, why they all look like damn toys to me, and more importantly why there is so much QC/poor customer support problems. It's basically a get in/get out mentality.


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## mbardu

xzacx said:


> I've never seen a case of Jackson refusing rebuilds (not saying it hasn't happened, just haven't seen that I can recall off hand), and I know people who've had multiple rebuilds based on color alone on the same guitar. (I've also never seen them publicly shame customers or claim they were robbed as a marketing tactic.) This absolutely brings up the point that they should get it right in the first place, but we've all seen examples of Kiesel refusing this very thing. There's even a very recent example right here on this board of Jackson offering a rebuild based on top/color.



I have absolutely seen cases of Kiesel refusing to rebuild/refinish things, just like I have seen them accepting to do so.
So sounds about the same as Jackson CS, except you get the answer right away and said rebuild within weeks -vs weeks of discussion through a dealer and years to rebuild  .
But seriously you know what...maybe Jackson does it more frequently and would be more willing, but considering the price they charge...I would say maybe they'd better do so? And the fact they'd have to refinish the same guitar multiple times is a bit concerning TBH, or at least it shows it's not easy to get what a customer has in mind.

At the end of the day, I would not recommend Kiesel if you want something super custom or an absolutely very specific finish though. It's just not their forte. They'll do it, but they'll warn you a few times along the way that the guitar is yours and not returnable under the regular 10-day trial policy. 
I consider myself super lucky the way my Contour 66 turned out, but I don't think I'd roll the dice again if I had to redo it. 
Go with them for basic builds.

As for how Jeff handles the situation? Nobody is going to debate that this is a bad way to go about it, and it's not the first time sadly.


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## mbardu

Albake21 said:


> Oh man I've been following this one in the Kiesel Facebook group. Hell even the Kiesel sheep are pretty pissed off right now with many no longer ordering a guitar that was planned. What an absolute joke with the way this is being handled, and what an absolute joke with the way that guitar looks. Just goes to show that Kiesel Guitars are nothing more than an assembly line with many options. This is something I've come to realize throughout the years. Kiesel is literally just a guitar assembly, no different than those in Asian countries. The only difference being you get to choose your options. This is exactly why these guitars have no detail to them, why they all look like damn toys to me, and more importantly why there is so much QC/poor customer support problems. It's basically a get in/get out mentality.



It's not the first time you argue that, but I'd be very interested in hearing what it means for you for guitars to "have no detail to them" and for guitars to "have detail to them"?
I have next to me a random Kiesel and a random Suhr, and they both have perfect neck pockets, perfect frets, straight neck, similar top, pristine finish, same resonance, same finish on the neck... Both are better finished and resonate a tad more than a PRS Artist that's nearby. Is one supposed to have...more detail than the other?

Hate to break that to you...but just like all guitars are wood + frets + hardware + electronics, all guitar shops are...guitar assembly lines? By definition? I mean (Aristides aside) you have the CNC work, then all guitar shops share the same steps and components of woodworking, fretwork, finish, hardware, electronics. Some builders go a step further by doing their own electronics and wood prep in-house as well. But I mean, Suhr is also a guitar assembly line, not a magical wizard conjuring guitar out of thin air.

And what is that about "Asian countries"? Are their guitar assemblies supposed to be bad by definition? Does that mean an Ibanez Premium at 1500$ is a total ripoff then? Or a Prestige at 2500? A custom ESP at 9k? If we're arguing that Kiesel is bad value I fail to see how this is serving the argument.

This post is exactly my beef...one more very poor customer service decision on Kiesel part (no one can argue against that), a bit of online drama, and here we go, we cannot resist the urge to bring down the brand with absolutely unsubstantiated and unrelated empty statements. Just waiting for the "Kiesel pickups are garbage" meme or "Kiesel don't have soul like my RG" since we already covered the "they feel like toys" trope.


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## Jonathan20022

Kiesel for some reason never bothered to refine their guitars past the bare minimum work required. I personally requested rolled fretboard edges from my guitars, because my first guitar from them the DC7X Wired Guitarist Run had a 90 degree fretboard edge that was insanely sharp. Their early dyes for their fretboards were insanely poor too, and while mine never faded because I take good care of my stuff and play as a hobby, others saw their plain jane maple fretboard bleed through from a few dozen hours of play. My Vaders were perfect, but one of them had improper seating of the bridge and was rebuilt (hence no NGD back when I bothered to post them). No one really heard about that because like every fuck-up I rang and they offered to fix it/rebuild it for me, well except for these two last guitars I ordered.

My pair of K Series multiscale 6's had several issues, I ordered TWIN guitars one with a flamed redwood top and the other with a burl redwood top. Ordered through Chris Hong, picked the top with Jeff directly and finalized the spec sheet with Chris. (For reference I have told this story before, but having it written off as measly drama made me want to retell it and reassure people that it was not petty drama).











Jeff *somehow:*
1) Forgot to blackburst the burl guitar
2) Forgot to Triple Deep stain the burl guitar
3) Used the wrong laminates on a TWIN pair of guitar orders
- To expand on this, I ordered Black Limba/Koa/Flame Maple in a 7pc Laminate Neck configuration. He built it as a 5pc Black Limba/Koa Neck
4) Forgot the matching Redwood Backplates for my guitars

And the only reason I caught this, was because I was tagged in a live stream by a buddy asking if that was my redwood pre-stain. So if I had lived my normal working life, and assumed Jeff would have delivered what was written in facebook messages and ordered on an invoice, I would have gotten something completely different missing several upcharge items I paid for.

Jeff decides to lie to me and mention I gave him "creative freedom" on the burl redwood guitar, which would cost me the price of a refinish (Normally 600, offered it to me for 200) to add in the DTS/Black Burst I requested. I refuted this, and it worked in my favor since any interaction I had with Jeff was via text over Facebook Messenger, took some screenshots and pretty politely just asked him to comply with what I paid for since these creative freedoms were never granted and our conversations never led down that path. He went back, read and confirmed and COMPROMISED with me about the parts he could fix (The guitar was glossed over, so I was SOL on the DTS + Laminated Neck).

I was not offered any compensation for the things I did not receive as laid in my invoice. But for some reason I agreed to the compromise, and proceeded with the guitar because at that point I was anxious and wanted my guitar pretty badly after the long wait. Looking back on this conversation I was apologizing for any misunderstanding and trying to be polite since I was a big fan and wanted both guitars to turn out well. I shouldn't have done this and I should have been far more firm since you are supposed to expect what you pay for, especially when it's in writing.

I'll cut the ending short to a few points:
1) The flame redwood arrived first since it had little to no issues with the specs during the build, but the bridge saddles were all cranked to the max and it felt insanely awkward to play like their previous bridge issue they fixed. Got that fixed, and it never really played as perfect as I wanted it to so I resold it and moved on.
2) The burl redwood arrived before christmas, and the guitar had none of the unifying aspect of the flamed redwood build to deem them twins. It was not DTS, the burst was a thin/transparent black burst (Requested Solid blackburst), and it arrived with impressions in the gloss finish/indents in the frets. I brought this up to Chris and requested a buff/finish fix since it played amazingly and actually looked cool. Sent the guitar back, and got it from them in worse condition with literal dings on the neck/and the body impressions on the gloss untouched.

Requested a refund on the Redwood Burl K Series, it was altogether too much to just keep the guitar and ignore all the issues with it. Was met with the same friction you see other people get, but since I was speaking directly to Jeff it felt all a bit more personal when he stood firm and said verbatim:"*If I did not know you so well I would not have even offered an exchange for a new build*". So good luck to any folks who weren't directly communicating with him. He offered me a credit on my account to order a rebuild to my spec, which I took as "this time it'll cost you more", since he didn't just offer to build the damn thing like my spec sheet originally requested. I responded back that I am not interested in a rebuild at this point, and that I would simply like my money back. He refused and I chose to mention that I can and will chargeback the purchase since I had enough evidence that I didn't receive upcharges I paid for, and that the guitar was received in poor condition. The next reply was a request to return the guitar on my dime, and that he would refund me but not before leaving in a jab that my finances must be tight for me to be pushing for a refund. 

@mbardu, if you earnestly believe that this and the miriad of people who have negative experiences with Kiesel are simply "drama" then I'm not sure what to tell you. If you think at any point the response to the issues I ran into were fair or reasonable then I feel like this is a lost cause, you clearly find value in Kiesel for some reason that you're not finding in other brands. But as stated before, I am not comfortable tossing someone a couple thousand dollars and expecting a coin toss about wether or not I'll receive a badass guitar or a subpar one riddled with mistakes. I'm not the kind of customer that is going to compromise when the product I order isn't what I receive, and I don't think anyone else should be because the implied "family" relationship is a farce.

As far as guitars go value wise, objectively I guess I won't change your mind since you're clearly experienced in guitars and don't see how hearing stories like mine play on the scale. I purchased an AZ Prestige for 1300 last year, played it for quite some time and was pretty satisfied with it. Only bringing that up because you mentioned the AZ twice as a disappointing guitar, which doesn't feature some BS rule to keep you from returning it if there's anything wrong with it.


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> @mbardu, if you earnestly believe that this and the miriad of people who have negative experiences with Kiesel are simply "drama" then I'm not sure what to tell you. If you think at any point the response to the issues I ran into were fair or reasonable then I feel like this is a lost cause, you clearly find value in Kiesel for some reason that you're not finding in other brands. But as stated before, I am not comfortable tossing someone a couple thousand dollars and expecting a coin toss about wether or not I'll receive a badass guitar or a subpar one riddled with mistakes. I'm not the kind of customer that is going to compromise when the product I order isn't what I receive, and I don't think anyone else should be because the implied "family" relationship is a farce.
> 
> As far as guitars go value wise, objectively I guess I won't change your mind since you're clearly experienced in guitars and don't see how hearing stories like mine play on the scale. I purchased an AZ Prestige for 1300 last year, played it for quite some time and was pretty satisfied with it. Only bringing that up because you mentioned the AZ twice as a disappointing guitar, which doesn't feature some BS rule to keep you from returning it if there's anything wrong with it.



Thanks for taking the time to reply and for detailing your experience. I 100% appreciate the effort. And although you might be thinking otherwise, I think we're pretty much in agreement on most things.

First of all, based on what you said, I totally understand your frustration and disillusion with the brand. That's a hell of a ride, and not in a good way. Where it aligns with what I was saying in particular is that the story of your last 2 guitars is actually the perfect example of "they are not setup for really custom things so better to stick to basic builds" and "the customer service can really get bad at times". Examples of getting specs wrong, putting you on the spot as a client, or Jeff being Jeff- I gotta say sadly I'm not surprised, and those are the things I'll never deny. I do agree like you said that you were actually probably too "nice" to them actually. Get a measurable spec wrong such as wrong neck (twice?!?) and that's it. Either get a refund or a compensation. And those mishaps do happen more often than not with them, since they're not really setup like a"custom" custom shop.

Which really drives the point home to me: if you don't like gambling, then order something on-menu and 100% returnable. Anything wrong at all, return it, just like any other off-the-rack brand, except you got to try it in your specs and with your preferred finish. Better than any custom out there. Always my advice for people looking to try the brand, and why I consider the brand very low risk.

Anything beyond standard and returnable though, exercise caution.

The drama I keep referring to is not people describing their legitimate experience and warning against things to be aware of. It's not pointing out lapses in customer service and wrong specs. It's people with no interest one way or the other piling on the hate fest just to attack the Kiesel "sheep" and pretend all their guitars are the worst because of reasons XYZ. When I ask about real issues that would fall under the "warranty" category, that's sincere- and I had never heard about rough frets on the wired guitarist run or poor fretboard dyes for example. If your read again, that's not something I'd call drama at all if justified. And to answer your question, for your last two builds the responses you got were absolutely not reasonable at all. I would probably have been way less patient than you were. That's not drama.

Without minimizing your experience though (and I sympathize, myself having had to deal with BS like being responsible for return shipping even though _they _made an error in specs...), does it mean I'm going to stop recommending and seeing the value in the brand? Not at all. If you order something basic and returnable you get something which is specced to you, and truly top grade 90% of the time for way less than the competition. And if not, return it and try again. Or not, that's up to you. There is very *very *little to lose. Compare that to any true custom builder, the quality is often not as high because they lack the equipment and scale, and you're out a couple of thousands if you don't like the finished product and want to resell with no option of return. Order a stock Ibanez some days and you'll pay more, get an insanely poor neck pocket fit and fretwork, questionable finish, and be out return shipping to send it back anyway. Or be out a couple of hours of work or a couple of hundred bucks to get things right (I mean, why is Rich so popular?). Does it mean I would never recommend an Ibanez? Well no- if you want the thinnest neck around and an Edge, you don't have tons of choices, and some shitty experiences do not change that.

Which brings me back to my example that you don't seem to like, to talk about value. If you can find me an equivalent to the Delos for comparable specs and quality (you said you tried the AZ...did you really find it on par with your better Carvin or Kiesel guitars? Better even, since it's more expensive? I just didn't see it at all), I'm all ears and this is a genuine question. Short of that, Kiesel, even with numerous numerous issues (which are undeniable- but that's every company) remains top value unless proven otherwise.


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## Hollowway

@Jonathan20022 you were positioned to be a long time repeat customer buying high dollar guitars from him. And Jeff decided to cut off that revenue stream by being a jerk. And he said that YOUR finances were tight? A smart businessman would have made you happy and brought you back for more. It would even have been a loss leader, because he would have either fixed the guitar or rebuilt yours and sold it to someone else. He’s just an idiot about this stuff. It take a a LOT of work to make me hate cool guitars, but Jeff makes me do it with his so consistently.


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## mbardu

Hollowway said:


> @Jonathan20022 you were positioned to be a long time repeat customer buying high dollar guitars from him. And Jeff decided to cut off that revenue stream by being a jerk. And he said that YOUR finances were tight? A smart businessman would have made you happy and brought you back for more. It would even have been a loss leader, because he would have either fixed the guitar or rebuilt yours and sold it to someone else. He’s just an idiot about this stuff. It take a a LOT of work to make me hate cool guitars, but Jeff makes me do it with his so consistently.



I mean it's worse than that...he _was _already a significant repeat customer, plus a positive voice, and he's now alienated to the brand.
Makes no sense.


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## StevenC

Nobody tell this guy about the Carvin with the side dots on the other side of the fretboard.


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## xzacx

mbardu said:


> Which really drives the point home to me: if you don't like gambling, then order something on-menu and 100% returnable. Anything wrong at all, return it, just like any other off-the-rack brand, except you got to try it in your specs and with your preferred finish. Better than any custom out there. Always my advice for people looking to try the brand, and why I consider the brand very low risk.
> 
> Anything beyond standard and returnable though, exercise caution.



So your best defense for the brand you're riding so hard for constantly is "well, don't expect too much, and you might be pleasantly surprised or able to return it"? You're really ready to die on a hill for a brand you can't give any more credit to than that? You might as well throw in "yeah, they've never actually brought anything new to the guitar world, but they'll knock off what’s popular and do it cheaper. It might be ugly compared to what you actually wanted, but you can pick your own color and wood combos and make it as ugly as possible. It'll probably sound like crap, but will be made as well as a pretty nice import!"


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## Albake21

mbardu said:


> It's not the first time you argue that, but I'd be very interested in hearing what it means for you for guitars to "have no detail to them" and for guitars to "have detail to them"?
> I have next to me a random Kiesel and a random Suhr, and they both have perfect neck pockets, perfect frets, straight neck, similar top, pristine finish, same resonance, same finish on the neck... Both are better finished and resonate a tad more than a PRS Artist that's nearby. Is one supposed to have...more detail than the other?
> 
> Hate to break that to you...but just like all guitars are wood + frets + hardware + electronics, all guitar shops are...guitar assembly lines? By definition? I mean (Aristides aside) you have the CNC work, then all guitar shops share the same steps and components of woodworking, fretwork, finish, hardware, electronics. Some builders go a step further by doing their own electronics and wood prep in-house as well. But I mean, Suhr is also a guitar assembly line, not a magical wizard conjuring guitar out of thin air.
> 
> And what is that about "Asian countries"? Are their guitar assemblies supposed to be bad by definition? Does that mean an Ibanez Premium at 1500$ is a total ripoff then? Or a Prestige at 2500? A custom ESP at 9k? If we're arguing that Kiesel is bad value I fail to see how this is serving the argument.
> 
> This post is exactly my beef...one more very poor customer service decision on Kiesel part (no one can argue against that), a bit of online drama, and here we go, we cannot resist the urge to bring down the brand with absolutely unsubstantiated and unrelated empty statements. Just waiting for the "Kiesel pickups are garbage" meme or "Kiesel don't have soul like my RG" since we already covered the "they feel like toys" trope.



Details as in, the little things that make up a guitar. Their neck heel is incredibly ugly (I will admit though it plays and feels fine), their fret ends are not filled in resulting in sharp frets easily, their electronics could be a bit nicer feeling, most models do not have any recessed controls, their jack plates scream low end guitar, etc.... I could go on but my point is, these are things that are not present on most guitars, especially custom ones. And yes.. there is a big difference between an actual custom shop and a guitar factory in Asia.

When I think custom guitar, I think of a company that has actual soul in what they craft. They go for those extra details because all of these details add up quick. They may seem minor on the surface, but try and compare two guitars with some of these features. No doubt about it, one with the details look less toy like and more premium. My point in all this, is not that Kiesel's are a bad value, I'm not even talking about money here. My point is, Kiesel does the absolute bare minimum to get a guitar out of their factory and into the player's hands.

Maybe 10 years ago this would be a different conversation, but now even cheaper imported guitars feel the same, if not better than some Kiesel's I've owned. Not to mention, that some of these cheaper guitars do have these extra details. Tiny details on a guitar can add up and make a guitar look and feel a lot more premium.

Just because you're happy with your cheap looking Kiesel's does not mean the rest of the world is. They have major QC problems and I feel as if most comes down to the fact that they have no heart in the way these guitars are built. Just take one quick look at a Kiesel Ares and you'll see they have cut so many corners on it just to speed up productivity. This is what I meant by the get in/get out mentality that Kiesel has. I want to be clear here, out of the 5 Kiesel's I've custom ordered, only one did not have QC issues.

EDIT: Also @Jonathan20022 said it pretty damn well


----------



## Bdtunn

I was looking to buy a Zeus and have always put Jeff out of my mind when it comes to kiesel, or I try my best. But this one rubs me the wrong way and just shows what an ass he can be. I said a while back that I thinks he’s playing a WWE style villain or a trump type personality (not getting at all political here it’s just about the way they handle themselves, I could care less about politics at this point in my life). I can just see him call him a pussy and the minions all cheer. It’s too bad, I’ve had two beautiful builds from them, but I’m glad I recently gave my money to aristides, now that’s how you handle customers!!!!!


----------



## mbardu

Albake21 said:


> Details as in, the little things that make up a guitar. Their neck heel is incredibly ugly (I will admit though it plays and feels fine), their fret ends are not filled in resulting in sharp frets easily, their electronics could be a bit nicer feeling, most models do not have any recessed controls, their jack plates scream low end guitar, etc.... I could go on but my point is, these are things that are not present on most guitars, especially custom ones. And yes.. there is a big difference between an actual custom shop and a guitar factory in Asia.



I mean if you have more of those details, ideally note made up or imaginary then yes please.
If your complaints are that:

you don't like the _look _of their neck heel
their electronics could be a bit _nicer feeling_ (what does that even mean? take a look inside the electronics cavity of a Carvin/Kiesel and tell me what's wrong about it...)
their controls are not recessed (it's a design choice and my Suhr modern doesn't have recessed controls yet my Carvin CT6 does actually have them so I fail to see your point)
their jack plates are somehow bad (can you find anyone with an issue on one? never had an issue there, whereas I've had to replace the input plate on a 5k PRS P24 _twice _because it is made of fragile plastic)
their fret ends can be particularly sharp vs another build (I will seriously and specifically challenge that because their current process is among the best in the business, and they are way more consistent 90% of the other choices)
There's very little that holds water.

If your point however is that Kiesel is not a one-man custom operation with a "soul" (again the cliche, on top of "toys" etc), then there's little to argue against that. They just are not that kind of custom shop, and nobody is pretending that they are. But are you only worthy of guitars made by one-man custom shops who handcarve every build as a unique piece? Maybe it's just you then, because most people around here play mass produced Ibanez RGs, and if you think for a second that those are imbued with a heart or a soul or that Ibanez does anything more than building guitars to spec with productivity in mind, then I have a bridge to sell you.



Albake21 said:


> Maybe 10 years ago this would be a different conversation, but now even cheaper imported guitars feel the same, if not better than some Kiesel's I've owned. Not to mention, that some of these cheaper guitars do have these extra details. Tiny details on a guitar can add up and make a guitar look and feel a lot more premium..



You and others keep talking about those hypothetical imports that would be better/nicer than a 1/1.3k Kiesel, yet so far I have seen 0 actual example. Believe me, Kiesel is far from my only guitars, and among the imports I currently own (PRS SE, Ibanez Premium, Schecter Elite), they are still just a tad below (especially on things that matter like the actual fretwork or neck stability, not whether or not someone decide to press the "carve control" on the CNC or pick a different 1mm veneer today...). Plus the latter ones are now more expensive guitars. Do you have some actual examples in mind? For example in lieu of getting a Delos as a nice modern strat-like? In my experience Jackson imports have fallen a lot in quality compared to the 90s, Sterling imports are not there yet and LTDs are nothing special. But I must be missing some things if it's so easy to find those great imports I'm not aware of.



xzacx said:


> So your best defense for the brand you're riding so hard for constantly is "well, don't expect too much, and you might be pleasantly surprised or able to return it"? You're really ready to die on a hill for a brand you can't give any more credit to than that? You might as well throw in "yeah, they've never actually brought anything new to the guitar world, but they'll knock off what’s popular and do it cheaper. It might be ugly compared to what you actually wanted, but you can pick your own color and wood combos and make it as ugly as possible. It'll probably sound like crap, but will be made as well as a pretty nice import!"



I mean this post is as disingenuous and bad faith as it gets and I can tell I stroke a nerve talking about Jackson earlier because you're clearly a fan, but I'll take it.
I never said "don't expect much" because i don't think that. I only said "don't go to them for something extra custom because it's not what they do best" just like I would say "don't go to the steak restaurant for a pasta dish because it's not what they do best". I will continue to defend that they are among the best, or the best value around, and that you can get something that plays like a Suhr 3 times the price most of the time. If not on your particular build (lemons happen), just return it _if you didn't specifically pick something non-returnable_. On top of that, it will be configured exactly how you like it - and you seem to imply that it's a bad thing but I'm not sure why. Re: your comment about imports, just like I said above, if you have some better value imports you'd like to recommend, I'm genuinely all ears!

Contrary to popular belief I'm not married to a particular brand or builder. If you want the thinnest neck and an edge go Ibanez, if you want a Les Paul just get a Les Paul because nothing else is going to get you there, if you want the best superstrat and don't mind trading a good chunk of $$$ for not having to worry about _anything_, get a Suhr or an Anderson. I'm not recommending Kiesel for cases like that. But on the value proposition in many scenarios, I'm yet to see an argument against Kiesel that's not just knee jerk reaction to Jeff, or stories of "non returnable yet I'd like to return".

If we're talking about bringing something new to the guitar world, I'm sad for you, but Jackson is not bringing much new to the guitar world, but that's OK, very few people are nowadays. In guitars, everything is pretty much a copy of a copy, so you might as well get the best playing most solid instrument you can get for the price- and Kiesel is absolutely top of the heap there.


----------



## GoldDragon

Albake21 said:


> Oh man I've been following this one in the Kiesel Facebook group. Hell even the Kiesel sheep are pretty pissed off right now with many no longer ordering a guitar that was planned. What an absolute joke with the way this is being handled, and what an absolute joke with the way that guitar looks. Just goes to show that Kiesel Guitars are nothing more than an assembly line with many options. This is something I've come to realize throughout the years. Kiesel is literally just a guitar assembly, no different than those in Asian countries. The only difference being you get to choose your options. This is exactly why these guitars have no detail to them, why they all look like damn toys to me, and more importantly why there is so much QC/poor customer support problems. It's basically a get in/get out mentality.



I think you're right, its just an assembly line where you pay USA prices for the priviledge of saying your guitar is "custom".

There are/were so many versions of Agile(chinese) guitars, and most of the other major brands also did a great job in diversifying their offerings, it almost doesn't make sense to order "custom" unless you know its the absolute best quality.

I think alot of people would be surprised to learn that many of the low end chinese intruments have reached the quality level that Kiesel is operating in. All you need to do is run it through a plek machine and you will think "this is the best guitar I've every played". 

Kiesel inherited the buisiness, he obviously doesn't have the temperament or talent to run it.


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## xzacx

mbardu said:


> If we're talking about bringing something new to the guitar world, I'm sad for you, but Jackson is not bringing much new to the guitar world, but that's OK, very few people are nowadays. In guitars, everything is pretty much a copy of a copy, so you might as well get the best playing most solid instrument you can get for the price- and Kiesel is absolutely top of the heap there.



Yeah man you're right, Carvin came up with that crappy upsidedown Rhoads shape with the knockoff Jackson headstock all on its own. And Kiesels are much better values than the piles of $500-$800 MIJ Ibby out there that don't look like they were created by someone with no sense of design either.


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## spudmunkey

[QUOTE="xzacx, post: 5125831, member: 1419" the piles of [...] MIJ Ibby out there that don't look like they were created by someone with no sense of design either.[/QUOTE]

FWiW, It's rare that I like the looks of most ibanez. Their primary design, the RG, always looked odd to me with the two very different horn points and try-hard pointy pickguard. I had an S, and it was OK but never fell in love with it, and in the end it wasn't for me. I also like the neck heel on my Aries more than I did on my S. It's almost like things like aesthetic design are subjective. *shrugs*


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## mbardu

xzacx said:


> Yeah man you're right, Carvin came up with that crappy upsidedown Rhoads shape with the knockoff Jackson headstock all on its own. And Kiesels are much better values than the piles of $500-$800 MIJ Ibby out there that don't look like they were created by someone with no sense of design either.



You are _really _taking that stuff way personally against Jackson and I apologize if I struck a nerve. You seem to like strawman arguments, but I never said Carvin created the reverse V or anything of the sort. Majority of their designs have in fact been derivative (although ironically, a bit less since Jeff). But I just don't think it would be fair to say Jackson invented the superstrat or the V or the explorer either. Doesn't mean i don't believe the Kelly or Soloist are great models, but the industry itself is copies all the way down, and that's not specific to one brand vs another.

As for value, this but unironically.
Get a new ~1K Kiesel to your specs with a neck like a Suhr, or a random 500$ 15 year old Ibanez with the finish past its prime, the neck pocket cracked, the frets worn out, the crappy electronics, and the "you can get it in any color as long as it's black" look? Yeah, easy choice, even for twice the money. I mean that in all seriousness- a 500$ MIJ Ibanez today is going to be reaaaaally bottom of the barrel. Get one of the rare good condition 800$ recent Prestige or Kiesel in great/like-new condition? That's up to your needs and preferences, but for me lack of stainless steel frets would be a deal breaker (but it's not for some people).
Now if you meant a _new _Ibanez Prestige, then sure great guitars- and hopefully they'll soon have stainless steel frets on more guitars throughout the range too. But now you're also talking way higher price.

Again, happy to be proven wrong in terms of value, but that's just not it.


----------



## bostjan

I mean, from the sound of it, if you opt for a $1200 Kiesel, get the wrong guitar because Jeff messed up, and get excommunicated from the Kiesel group over asking for a rebuilt of what you asked for in the first place, then end up trading your $1200 guitar for $300 in store credit toward a $2000 guitar that still isn't what you wanted, but at least is a guitar that you can play without having flashbacks, you could still say that you would have been $900 ahead if you had just opted to not get a Kiesel in the first place.

I haven't dealt directly with Kiesel since they were Carvin, but I've had custom guitar orders run the gamut from no guitar to dream guitar and from scam to super enjoyable business transaction, and all that really matters is whether the whole deal was worth the trouble or not. Even if Kiesel has a tiny fraction of a percent of guitars leave the shop that are not what the customer paid for, or if they do it a majority of the time, overall, it's not the biggest issue - it's how they deal with the problem. If so much as one customer in a million gets totally screwed over in the transaction by no fault of their own, it's unacceptable. And if Kiesel screwed up every first guitar, but then sent you what you wanted the second time at no cost to you, I'd imagine that'd be entirely forgivable.

So where is the reality of it? Well, I don't care how many people get exactly what they wanted, because I know that there have been several cases where the customer asked for something and got something different, and, in those cases, the customer was consistently either ignored by Kiesel CS or told that it was all the customer's own fault.  If Jeff was shipping these guitars from China, I fully believe that the attitude toward his business here would be 100% negative, based on his tactics in public.


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## GoldDragon

Another thought I just had about kiesel...

When you order a guitar through a major reseller, whether it be Fender, Gibson, or Ibanez, there is a level of quality they need to guarantee that the guitars don't be sent back for a replacement. I'm sure some of the cheaper guitars slip through the cracks, but I'd be surprised if any of the 1K guitars are as bad as these Kiesels. Fender is large enough that if a dud rolls off the assembly line, they deconstruct it, use what they can from its parts, or just throw it in the trash.

Also, a normal assembly line produces a smaller variation in models, so they can focus on production. The mismatched "roasted" fretboard wouldn't have even slipped through production of a $300 guitar. (You can get a Harley Benton roasted neck guitar for that, with a matching fretboard) What they are doing is like Lego guitars; there are more chances for mishaps.

The problem is that because you are buying direct from Kiesel, you end up assuming the risk, where a bad guitar bought from MF, you just send it back. A custom builder needs to have a 110% satisfaction guaranteed return policy.

Kiesel:
- Lego guitars with higher than normal chance of defects
- Small company that cant afford to trash defective guitars, instead tries to foist them onto customers.
- Chinese level of quality (Agile) that are plekked to play well, but paying 3x as much as an Agile.
- Buyer assumes the risk that a normal reseller normally protects the buyer from.
- Difficult (predatory?) return policies.
- Horrible customer service.

Maybe CV will wipe them out.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Say, I don't know if I've ever seen a build-in-progress update from Kiesel. Do they not do that?


----------



## mbardu

bostjan said:


> I mean, from the sound of it, if you opt for a $1200 Kiesel, get the wrong guitar because Jeff messed up, and get excommunicated from the Kiesel group over asking for a rebuilt of what you asked for in the first place, then end up trading your $1200 guitar for $300 in store credit toward a $2000 guitar that still isn't what you wanted, but at least is a guitar that you can play without having flashbacks, you could still say that you would have been $900 ahead if you had just opted to not get a Kiesel in the first place.



I won't even get into the rest of the argument that derives from this, because this just doesn't happen. Unless you specifically decide to order a guitar that's not returnable, despite all the warnings, then you can return it no questions asked after 10 days, and Carvin/Kiesel has *never *given anyone any issue with that policy. Still beats any custom or bespoke builder anywhere. 

The only issues that get brought up are with people who bought something specifically on the "no guarantee/no return" basis and are not happy with the implications.


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## spudmunkey

The906 said:


> Say, I don't know if I've ever seen a build-in-progress update from Kiesel. Do they not do that?



No, they don't. They do frequent walk-through videos where they pull and show random guitars, and they usually post a few "pics of the day" on Facebook from the shop which is usually 4-8 pics (less recently, of course).

The only way to get in-progress pics is if you get a Kiesel Edition, which is an upgrade package that can be applied to any model which has a number of included upgrades, jeff pics all of the woods, there's usually some sort of upgraded hand-applied finish, and you get at least a couple in-progress pics.


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## mbardu

GoldDragon said:


> Another thought I just had about kiesel...
> 
> When you order a guitar through a major reseller, whether it be Fender, Gibson, or Ibanez, there is a level of quality they need to guarantee that the guitars don't be sent back for a replacement. I'm sure some of the cheaper guitars slip through the cracks, but I'd be surprised if any of the 1K guitars are as bad as these Kiesels. Fender is large enough that if a dud rolls off the assembly line, they deconstruct it, use what they can from its parts, or just throw it in the trash.
> 
> The problem is that because you are buying direct from Kiesel, you end up assuming the risk, where a bad guitar bought from MF, you just send it back. A custom builder needs to have a 110% satisfaction guaranteed return policy.
> 
> Kiesel:
> - Lego guitars with higher than normal chance of defects
> - Small company that cant afford to trash defective guitars, instead tries to foist them onto customers.
> - Chinese level of quality (Agile) that are plekked to play well, but paying 3x as much as an Agile.
> - Buyer assumes the risk that a normal reseller normally protects the buyer from.
> - Difficult (predatory?) return policies.
> - Horrible customer service.



I won't comment on the most heinous or ignorant part of your posts (let's just pretend we didn't read that), but:

You take no risk if you order a Kiesel and don't specifically go out of your way to order a no-return option. Zero. They will honor all returns no questions asked within 10 days, and have been doing so for decades. I literally challenge you to find a single case where they did not honor that. The only issues that get brought up are with people who bought something specifically on the "no guarantee/no return" basis and are not happy with the implications later down the road.
If you don't think a large number of Gibson/Fender/Ibanez duds make their way into customer hands, you must not have looked very far. The examples are way too many to even list, and probably outweigh the Kiesel stories by orders of magnitude.
If you think a 300$ agile is the same as a Kiesel, you must not have played a lot of guitars...and if you think a PLEK is magic, then go talk to Tom Anderson or Paul Reed Smith


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## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> The only issues that get brought up are with people who bought something specifically on the "no guarantee/no return" basis and are not happy with the implications.



This is demonstrably false and given the degree in which you follow Kiesel, it's hard to believe this statement is anything but a bald face lie.

https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/kiesel-never-again.320132/

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...u-buy-kiesel-carvin-guitar-read-this.1745092/

https://www.metalguitarist.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-70731.html

Funny little tidbit: the guitar in the last link, which was originally posted here (Joe goes by "yellowv" on here) was the what lead to Jeff demanding we remove all negative press about Kiesel from this forum, regardless of substance. Needless to say, we didn't, because that's not our job, and why no official Kiesel account posts here anymore and they were removed as a site sponsor.


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## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> This is demonstrably false and given the degree in which you follow Kiesel, it's hard to believe this statement is anything but a bold face lie.
> 
> https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/kiesel-never-again.320132/
> 
> https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...u-buy-kiesel-carvin-guitar-read-this.1745092/
> 
> https://www.metalguitarist.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-70731.html



I mean I checked your links again, but I know those stories. They are typically the worst "horror" stories that bubble to the surface in terms of customer service. Those few cases over years where they were absolutely treated wrong by the company, resulting in frustration for the buyer.
But except one where apparently there was a communication mishap with a guitar first going to the "repair" side of things instead of a direct return, none of those stories goes against the "try the guitar and just send it back for a refund if you don't like it" angle.

The first link actually starts with "I returned it for a refund" so.....exactly my point?
And the last one is a story of "they said they don't accept returns on guitars with non-returnable options", which is exactly how Kiesel operates and also something I recommend against for people who are risk averse.

If the point was again to say that sometimes customer service can be shitty on bad days and that it can be frustrating for the customer...I guess OK? But nobody denied that.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> I mean I checked your links again, but I know those stories. They are typically the worst "horror" stories that bubble to the surface in terms of customer service. Those few cases over years where they were absolutely treated wrong by the company, resulting in frustration for the buyer.
> But except one where apparently there was a communication mishap with a guitar first going to the "repair" side of things instead of a direct return, none of those stories goes against the "try the guitar and just send it back for a refund if you don't like it" angle.
> 
> The first link actually starts with "I returned it for a refund" so.....exactly my point?
> And the last one is a story of "they said they don't accept returns on guitars with non-returnable options", which is also something I recommend against for people who are risk averse.



But they do exist.

You make decent points throughout the last couple pages in here, I don't see how at most generous, using hyperbole, and at least dishonesty is winning any arguments.

Those were just the first three I chose off of Google. There are more, you know there are more, anyone can see there are more. We'd know about even more if social media wasn't well scrubbed.

Ah well. Now back to your regularly scheduled argument.


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## Seabeast2000

StevenC said:


> Nobody tell this guy about the Carvin with the side dots on the other side of the fretboard.



Option 50, bottom mount, even-fret dots-BMEFD


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## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> But they do exist.
> 
> You make decent points throughout the last couple pages in here, I don't see how at most generous, using hyperbole, and at least dishonesty is winning any arguments.
> 
> Those were just the first three I chose off of Google. There are more, you know there are more, anyone can see there are more. We'd know about even more if social media wasn't well scrubbed.
> 
> Ah well. Now back to your regularly scheduled argument.



Really depends what you mean by "they do exist" and "there are more". Shitty customer service? Yes for sure, I've had a few myself similar to your links (having to send a guitar back a couple of times, and still not quite fixed). Jeff being Jeff? For sure, and I think even he realizes that.

Are there stories and stories of "I ordered a basic build and could not get a refund" though? That I very much doubt so. And that's the only point I'm making when I say that contrary to the idea around here, there is zero risk in trying out a basic returnable build, vs the very frequent reward of a great guitar at a great price. "Risk" comes in when you order something non-returnable, but how is that a surprise? And even that "risk" is pretty low compared to many options out there. Take a small custom builder, it's a gamble you'll get any guitar at all, and if you don't like it, forget about any return policy or resale value. Don't even dream about the long Kiesel warranty if something structural is very wrong with your guitar. Take a _large _custom shop and be ready to risk twice to 5 times the $$ and wait years. Are those less "risk"?

Never said Kiesel is perfect for everyone or that they don't have client horror stories. If you can point me to places where I'm dishonest- I'd be happy to correct. Somehow you don't seem to notice or care, but I'd say the dishonest hyperbole is way more in the anti-Kiesel camp (cheap toys no better than a base Agile lmao ) TBH.


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## bostjan

mbardu said:


> I won't even get into the rest of the argument that derives from this, because this just doesn't happen. Unless you specifically decide to order a guitar that's not returnable, despite all the warnings, then you can return it no questions asked after 10 days, and Carvin/Kiesel has *never *given anyone any issue with that policy. Still beats any custom or bespoke builder anywhere.
> 
> The only issues that get brought up are with people who bought something specifically on the "no guarantee/no return" basis and are not happy with the implications.



Reread what I said and then what the first link Max posted said. Also reread your statements about Kiesel never once shipping someone a guitar that was unplayable.



mbardu said:


> Really depends what you mean by "they do exist"



Beg pardon?


----------



## soliloquy

GoldDragon said:


> *- Chinese level of quality (Agile) that are plekked to play well, but paying 3x as much as an Agile.*



not to nitpick, as i do agree with you 100%, and what i'm going to highlight changes nothing what so ever, but wanted to point out that most, if not, then ALL Agiles are built in Korea. 


and for what its worth, I've had several guitars in my 15ish-20ish years of playing, including 2 carvins. I sold them immediately when Jeff was up to his antics as the branch was no longer inspiring me. I do miss my several agiles i used to have at one point, but have no fond memories of Carvin, regardless of how decently built they were. 

anyways, back to the argument. all other brands for the win. Kiesel for the options.


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## Jonathan20022

The problem is most people aren't just ordering a maple/alder DC600 in white with no custom options. Yeah I guess I could just order everything within the realm of "returnable", but at that point axe *Custom *from the name because it puts them even moreso into the realm of lego guitars 

Their marketing and adverts pushes features and upgrades that are fully custom, when's the last time Jeff went live and held up a gloss black guitar with no upgrades and went "How great is this?"

I don't have statistics to back it up, and I don't think anyone does either. But I will wager quite a bit that these basic build probably don't eat up a majority of Kiesel's sales. Given everything you see on social media posted from their recent builds. Your assessment of all these problems lying in the op50 camp is a pretty useless point to make, Option 50 doesn't hold up in a court of law when they mess up or do not deliver what was agreed with on paper via Invoice. Defects and build issues included.

So yeah @mbardu, I guess I agree if you want to stay in the safe realm and buy these guitars that seem to showcase an immense value be my guest. They do not market to folks like that who come in to get the cheapest possible American CS. And what I have observed since being interested and following their Brand is that typically, they hook people with these base guitars and the client returns with more money for their next guitars now that they've established trust.

Jeff has no respect for that trust, and in the situations outlined and many more you can find. He will *attempt *to cage you in his little mind games, and then strong arm you once you persist.

Know your laws, Option 50 falls right apart and if you receive a guitar that is not what was agreed on, or damaged, do your research on the ability to Chargeback with your bank or payment service. If there's any benefit to Kiesel that I can commend them on at this point is their short wait times, and thankfully that works in the favor of customers moreso since Chargebacks are limited pretty hard from time of purchase.


----------



## mbardu

bostjan said:


> Reread what I said and then what the first link Max posted said. Also reread your statements about Kiesel never once shipping someone a guitar that was unplayable.



If you can point me to where I was talking about "Kiesel never once shipping someone a guitar that was unplayable" ever, I'd happily correct.
I don't quite get how I would say "if and when you get a lemon, just return it" and also say "Kiesel has never shipped a lemon in the history of the world ever" as the two don't go well together, but if you say so..



bostjan said:


> Beg pardon?



It's OK man, if you don't understand at first, you can try re-reading- the explanation is right there above. But I'll help you out. If "they" in "they do exist" refers to numerous customer services issues, then yes. If "they" in "they do exist" refers to numerous customer not getting a refund on a basic build, then no. So it depends.


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## StevenC

This dude's for real arguing that Kiesel should be extended a license to not deliver the guitar one orders if it includes an option 50?


----------



## bostjan

mbardu said:


> If you can point me to where I was talking about "Kiesel never once shipping someone a guitar that was unplayable" ever, I'd happily correct.
> I don't quite get how I would say "if and when you get a lemon, just return it" and also say "Kiesel has never shipped a lemon in the history of the world ever" as the two don't go well together, but if you say so..
> 
> 
> 
> It's OK man, if you don't understand at first, you can try re-reading- the explanation is right there above. But I'll help you out. If "they" in "they do exist" refers to numerous customer services issues, then yes. If "they" in "they do exist" refers to numerous customer not getting a refund on a basic build, then no. So it depends.



Sorry, I must have misunderstood one of your early posts from a few pages ago; I thought that your stance was that Kiesel was shipping functional guitars with cosmetic issues.


----------



## GoldDragon

I have a feeling Coronavirus will take care of all these problems.

Economy will be bad for the next two years. Import guitars prices will be further slashed and there is a glut of used guitars available for pennies on the dollar. People will be thinning the herd to make rent and buy food.

If he is so small that he can't absorb the loss of a mismanufactured guitar, it doesn't bode well for him. When he attacked the customer who wanted the refund, he said something like "you must be in financial trouble" or some such insult. Ironic how people project their problems onto other people.

Only way out is if government keeps writing blank checks for small businesses, but my understanding is the the loans have already dried up.


----------



## mbardu

StevenC said:


> This dude's for real arguing that Kiesel should be extended a license to not deliver the guitar one orders if it includes an option 50?



Who said that where?


----------



## xzacx

Jonathan20022 said:


> The problem is most people aren't just ordering a maple/alder DC600 in white with no custom options. Yeah I guess I could just order everything within the realm of "returnable", but at that point axe *Custom *from the name because it puts them even moreso into the realm of lego guitars
> 
> Their marketing and adverts pushes features and upgrades that are fully custom, when's the last time Jeff went live and held up a gloss black guitar with no upgrades and went "How great is this?"
> 
> I don't have statistics to back it up, and I don't think anyone does either. But I will wager quite a bit that these basic build probably don't eat up a majority of Kiesel's sales. Given everything you see on social media posted from their recent builds. Your assessment of all these problems lying in the op50 camp is a pretty useless point to make, Option 50 doesn't hold up in a court of law when they mess up or do not deliver what was agreed with on paper via Invoice. Defects and build issues included.
> 
> So yeah @mbardu, I guess I agree if you want to stay in the safe realm and buy these guitars that seem to showcase an immense value be my guest. They do not market to folks like that who come in to get the cheapest possible American CS. And what I have observed since being interested and following their Brand is that typically, they hook people with these base guitars and the client returns with more money for their next guitars now that they've established trust.
> 
> Jeff has no respect for that trust, and in the situations outlined and many more you can find. He will *attempt *to cage you in his little mind games, and then strong arm you once you persist.
> 
> Know your laws, Option 50 falls right apart and if you receive a guitar that is not what was agreed on, or damaged, do your research on the ability to Chargeback with your bank or payment service. If there's any benefit to Kiesel that I can commend them on at this point is their short wait times, and thankfully that works in the favor of customers moreso since Chargebacks are limited pretty hard from time of purchase.



This is it exactly. Bringing up the return policy like that is a bit disingenuous here, because they’ve made so many things non-returnable. Many of the features, even simple stuff like finishes, that they push the hardest, make things non-returnable—they want it both ways. The direct-to-customer model basically necessitates them offering some kind of return option, which they (as well as fanbois) actively promote, yet it’s available on a smaller percentage of builds than ever. It goes back to having so many caveats—is something really that great and worth defending when you have 35 disclaimers to go along with it?


----------



## StevenC

mbardu said:


> Who said that where?


People: order guitars with non returnable options
Jeff: delivers completely different spec guitar
You: why are people ordering non returnable options?


----------



## SavM

This sounds like victim blaming, that on top of them getting screwed is enough to ruffle anyone's feathers


----------



## mbardu

StevenC said:


> People: order guitars with non returnable options
> Jeff: delivers completely different spec guitar
> You: why are people ordering non returnable options?



Oh so the previous strawman didn't work out so you have to jump onto another?
Where has the above happened?

If you are thinking of Jonathan's story, as I told him, I am 100% thinking he was too nice to Jeff & co the moment he agreed to proceed with the guitars even with the wrong neck. Really a shame it turned that way. If you are thinking of the guitar with mismatched wood colors, do you even know that's not a very blonde piece of roasted maple? If it's not roasted maple as promised, then there should be refund or rebuild- but that's just speculation.
No matter what, if they build you the wrong specs, returnable or not, they have to and will fix it, unless you the buyer tells them you're OK with it only to end up regretting it later. I had 0 issues returning a build where they got the finish wrong (Aquaburst instead of Aqua).


----------



## mbardu

xzacx said:


> This is it exactly. Bringing up the return policy like that is a bit disingenuous here, because they’ve made so many things non-returnable. Many of the features, even simple stuff like finishes, they push the hardest make things non-returnable—they want it both ways. The direct-to-customer model basically necessitates them offering some kind of return option, which they (as well as fanbois) actively promote, yet it’s available on a smaller percentage of builds than ever. It goes back to having so many caveats—is something really that great and worth defending when you have 35 disclaimers to go along with it?



That's debatable, and if the options are not enough for you, you always have the option...I don't know...to not buy, maybe?
As it stands there are literally thousands of combinations and you could get so many variations between a no-bevel classic Aries with a sunburst finish on flame, and a fixed bridge matte black one with a large bevel and an evertune. It's not like there are only 2 options. Does an off-the rack Ibanez offer more choice?

Where are the 35 disclaimers you're talking about? It's really not that complex.
If you want the option to return the guitar, then don't pick non-returnable options  .
I think that's it.

I've ordered non-returnable stuff multiple times from them. They always make it clear that they offer no guarantee for looks, wood grain, the instrument may not appear exactly like what you have in mind or the sample pictures you can send them, it might be heavier than you thought, not sound the way you imagined...but that regardless, if you agree to that, the instrument is yours to keep. In those cases, they will still absolutely support the guitar for any issue under warranty. That did in fact happen to me (I've had to send them my Contour 66 back to have the electronics rewired because of a misunderstanding). Sometimes the support will come with hilariously bad customer service interactions, that's granted, but at least the warranty is for I believe at least 5 years, which is way more than you get buying a guitar at GC or Sweetwater. So gain some, lose some.

I've also ordered way more returnable stuff over the years and have in fact returned plenty with absolutely no resistance on their end and no harsh feelings. The worst was probably 3 guitars i returned in a row (2 C66 that I changed specs on and a CT7 when I was less into sevens) and I had no trouble with them or harsh interactions ordering another one afterwards that ended up being the right one.


----------



## StevenC

mbardu said:


> Oh so the previous strawman didn't work out so you have to jump onto another?
> Where has the above happened?
> 
> If you are thinking of Jonathan's story, as I told him, I am 100% thinking he was too nice to Jeff & co the moment he agreed to proceed with the guitars even with the wrong neck. Really a shame it turned that way. If you are thinking of the guitar with mismatched wood colors, do you even know that's not a very blonde piece of roasted maple? If it's not roasted maple as promised, then there should be refund or rebuild- but that's just speculation.
> No matter what, if they build you the wrong specs, returnable or not, they have to and will fix it, unless you the buyer tells them you're OK with it only to end up regretting it later. I had 0 issues returning a build where they got the finish wrong (Aquaburst instead of Aqua).


I don't know if you heard about the guy who ordered a roasted maple neck+fretboard and only got a roasted maple neck, but Jeff didn't seem so keen on solving that problem.


----------



## mbardu

StevenC said:


> I don't know if you heard about the guy who ordered a roasted maple neck+fretboard and only got a roasted maple neck, but Jeff didn't seem so keen on solving that problem.



Well that's actually precisely one example I mentioned in the reply you quoted. It's also the basis of this whole discussion. I guess if the urge is really to jump to bashing without reading the replies (as tends to be tradition when speaking about Kiesel) it's going to be hard to have a meaningful discussion. I'm not aware that anyone has confirmed the fretboard on that particular guitar is indeed not roasted maple. We've seen roasted maple that light before, just check the PRS SE roasted fretboard for a good example.
If it is however plain regular non roasted maple, then it warrants a refund or rebuild- nobody even questioned that.

How that turned (as usual) into "haha all Kiesel are chinese made poop just buy a used prestige or an agile" is what I'm still trying to explain, but I guess not trying to read and understand instead to jump onto the hate train/bandwagon is part of the reason.


----------



## StevenC

mbardu said:


> Well that's actually precisely one example I mentioned in the reply you quoted. It's also the basis of this whole discussion. I guess if the urge is really to jump to bashing without reading the replies (as tends to be tradition when speaking about Kiesel) it's going to be hard to have a meaningful discussion. I'm not aware that anyone has confirmed the fretboard on that particular guitar is indeed not roasted maple. We've seen roasted maple that light before, just check the PRS SE roasted fretboard for a good example.
> If it is however plain regular non roasted maple, then it warrants a refund or rebuild- nobody even questioned that.
> 
> How that turned (as usual) into "haha all Kiesel are chinese made poop just buy a used prestige or an agile" is what I'm still trying to explain, but I guess not trying to read and understand instead to jump onto the hate train/bandwagon is part of the reason.


Basically what you're saying is that you're the sort of person that would order a stained black guitar and be ok if one side was dyed with a blue based black and the other dyed with a brown based black?


----------



## xzacx

mbardu said:


> That's debatable, and if the options are not enough for you, you always have the option...I don't know...to not buy, maybe?
> As it stands there are literally thousands of combinations and you could get so many variations between a no-bevel classic Aries with a sunburst finish on flame, and a fixed bridge matte black one with a large bevel and an evertune. It's not like there are only 2 options. Does an off-the rack Ibanez offer more choice?


Please believe I will continue to use the option to, you know, not buy. I've seen them, heard them, and played them, therefore have never even considered it. Add to that the brand image, and yes, I'll continue to pass. An off the rack Ibanez offers something that Kiesel doesn't, and that's something I believe is a great guitar. (Well, some of them.)




mbardu said:


> Where are the 35 disclaimers you're talking about? It's really not that complex.
> If you want the option to return the guitar, then don't pick non-returnable options  .
> I think that's it.



I'm talking about YOUR disclaimers of it being such a great brand, as long as you stick to X, Y, and Z, and oh yeah the customer service might suck, and you might not get what you want, or maybe even get shamed publicly by the owner—but those things aside, GO KIESEL! Keep fighting the good fight, I hope Jeff appreciates it.


----------



## mbardu

StevenC said:


> Basically what you're saying is that you're the sort of person that would order a stained black guitar and be ok if one side was dyed with a blue based black and the other dyed with a brown based black?



Now that's 100% a bad faith argument. Are you just trying to troll? Wood is variable and not a guaranteed material. That's why short of picking your own pieces in the PRS vault, no manufacturer would guarantee a particular look. And even that would not predict the effect of the build, the sanding and the finish. Does that mean you then have to imagine hilarious impossible scenarios of people building guitars wrong just for lulz to try and disprove a point that nobody made?

Since you do want to make it personal, had my custom finishes turned out differently than I imagined, I would definitely not have gone back to Kiesel asking them to actually make them returnable after the fact. I had agreed that they could not promise to match exactly what I had in mind and that's fine. I understood and agreed on what non-returnable mean - that worst case scenario, the guitar may not look 100% like I hoped, but functionally it would still most likely be great, and any issue would be addressed under warranty.


----------



## mbardu

xzacx said:


> Please believe I will continue to use the option to, you know, not buy. I've seen them, heard them, and played them, therefore have never even considered it. Add to that the brand image, and yes, I'll continue to pass. An off the rack Ibanez offers something that Kiesel doesn't, and that's something I believe is a great guitar. (Well, some of them.)


Allow me to doubt your loooong experience with Kiesel guitars based on your reactions here (plus the cliche comment of "at least Ibanez is a great guitar"  ), but then I just wonder why you are still so vehemently posting here? Is it because I dared criticize the Jackson custom shop?



xzacx said:


> I'm talking about YOUR disclaimers of it being such a great brand, as long as you stick to X, Y, and Z, and oh yeah the customer service might suck, and you might not get what you want, or maybe even get shamed publicly by the owner—but those things aside, GO KIESEL! Keep fighting the good fight, I hope Jeff appreciates it.



My disclaimer remains the one and only. If you are risk averse, do not order something non-returnable. That's it. Nothing else in what you quote is relevant if you follow the one and only disclaimer, because you can just return the effing guitar no question asked if you don't like it. I guarantee you that Jeff will not haunt you if you order a basic guitar and return it within their 10-day window.

As long as you follow that advice, I'm still waiting for even one person to give me even one example of better value, and still nothing. No answer of those magical imports that would put a Kiesel Delos to shame. I'm not married to a particular brand and that's still a sincere genuine question for something I'm looking into. But bashing without a real argument is more fun it seems.


----------



## StevenC

mbardu said:


> Now that's 100% a bad faith argument. Are you just trying to troll? Wood is variable and not a guaranteed material. That's why short of picking your own pieces in the PRS vault, no manufacturer would guarantee a particular look. And even that would not predict the effect of the build, the sanding and the finish. Does that mean you then have to imagine hilarious impossible scenarios of people building guitars wrong just for lulz to try and disprove a point that nobody made?
> 
> Since you do want to make it personal, had my custom finishes turned out differently than I imagined, I would definitely not have gone back to Kiesel asking them to actually make them returnable after the fact. I had agreed that they could not promise to match exactly what I had in mind and that's fine. I understood and agreed on what non-returnable mean - that worst case scenario, the guitar may not look 100% like I hoped, but functionally it would still most likely be great, and any issue would be addressed under warranty.


You might have a point if Kiesel weren't the first people to ever get a mismatch like this on roasted maple.

Unsurprisingly, there are actually ways to ensure that a neck and fretboard of an identical material look very similar, but Kiesel choose not to take those measures and instead spew nonesense like this.


----------



## MSS

This thread bums me out. The last few years I have been a Polish made guitar snob. I ordered a vader 7 during the last black friday sale and I sweated it out for 2 months because it was “non returnable”. 

I received an absolutely stunning guitar with exceptional fit and finish that was, and still is, right up there with my Mayones for a lot less money. I want another one. However, the reason I have not ordered one is the “not returnable” thing. I’m not willing to pay the non black friday price just in case there actually is something wrong with it for a guitar that is “non returnable”. I don’t get why a poplar top makes it “non returnable”...


----------



## xzacx

mbardu said:


> Allow me to doubt your loooong experience with Kiesel guitars based on your reactions here (plus the cliche comment of "at least Ibanez is a great guitar"  ), but then I just wonder why you are still so vehemently posting here? Is it because I dared criticize the Jackson custom shop?



Please reference where I say I had "loooong" experience with Carvin or Kiesel. All I said I didn't think the ones I've played were any good, hence not having any interest in one.



mbardu said:


> As long as you follow that advice, I'm still waiting for even one person to give me one example of better value, and still nothing. No answer of those magical imports that would put a Kiesel Delos to shame. I'm not married to a particular brand and that's still a since genuine question for something I'm looking into. But bashing without a real argument is more fun it seems.



You can get a PRS S2 brand new for under $1k, have a better instrument, better brand value, and better customer service. Is that a good enough example? Not to mention 1,000s of used Ibanez, Jackson USA, ESP, PRS CE, USA Washburns, USA Peavey, Schecter—if "value" is the goal, something used it a much better idea anyway. That’s all without even getting into the nicer LTDs and SE which basically are what Kiesels feel like to me—nice WMIs.

Like what you like, but you’re presenting this as fact and it’s glossing over so many issues that are a reality even if you do think they’re that good.


----------



## High Plains Drifter

In my experience with Kiesel it's not about options, returnable, nonreturnable, etc. It's when what's on paper gets disregarded after there's an issue. If I felt that I could trust that what was originally stated or that what was documented would actually be honored and that I wouldn't be pressured to accept current "terms" rather than what was originally written or discussed... then I'd have no problem giving Jeff my money again. But I feel that I can't count on what they say prior to the sale. Just seems that it's a case by case basis rather than a firm policy and that's just too risky for me. Love my Carvin DC700 fwiw... I'm not cheering on one side or the other... just my experience.


----------



## mbardu

xzacx said:


> Please reference where I say I had "loooong" experience with Carvin or Kiesel. All I said I didn't think the ones I've played were any good, hence not having any interest in one.


I just assumed that's what you meant based on you listing your experience with them. If you admit instead that you actually don't have that much experience though, I just find it even more odd that you're here in a Kiesel thread where you're universally bashing them.



xzacx said:


> You can get a PRS S2 brand new for under $1k, have a better instrument, better brand value, and better customer service. Is that a good enough example? Not to mention 1,000s of used Ibanez, Jackson USA, ESP, PRS CE, USA Washburns, USA Peavey, Schecter—if "value" is the goal, something used it a much better idea anyway. That’s all without even getting into the nicer LTDs and SE which basically are what Kiesels feel like to me—nice WMIs.
> 
> Like what you like, but you’re presenting this as fact and it’s glossing over so many issues that are a reality even if you do think they’re that good.



Value is a goal in the sense that if you have x dollars, for something you'd rather make the best use possible of it. What I've been asking for is for example a better modern strat than a Delos for 1/1.3k and a must have feature in 2020 as far as I'm concerned is stainless steel frets. Obviously the S2 series doesn't quite fit the bill specs wise, but even if it did, the "better instrument" is largely questionable. It's not the most loved series in the range because of things like fretwork, electronics and the very very basic finish. But at least thank you for trying a suggestion.
Your comparison between WMI is pretty telling though, and it does show me you must really have seen a small pool of Carvin/Kiesel. I like my SEs, and will probably keep a particular signature one forever. But out of all the guitars I have the WMI ones are probably the ones that feel most different from Kiesel . Exact neck profile aside, the closest one to a Kiesel with gloss neck would probably be ESP standard, the closest one to Kiesel with oiled neck (and that's VERY close) is Suhr.


----------



## Crash Dandicoot

mbardu said:


> a must have feature in 2020 as far as I'm concerned is stainless steel frets.



I like SS frets too, but I can't imagine it being a make-or-break deciding factor if you like an instrument. Why is it a mandatory feature "in 2020" specifically?

I'm genuinely curious, I've encountered this outlook regarding SS frets in multiple guitar communities and I just can't wrap my head around it. Does everybody else put acid on their fingers when they play guitars with nickel silver frets or something? Like, less servicing time over the life of a guitar for fret wear. Got it. How often do you need a fret level or a refret? Is this more of a used guitar purchase thing, more peace of mind knowing the frets are already level and shouldn't have worn as much? 

I really want to understand this one.


----------



## mbardu

Crash Dandicoot said:


> I like SS frets too, but I can't imagine it being a make-or-break deciding factor if you like an instrument. Why is it a mandatory feature "in 2020" specifically?
> 
> I'm genuinely curious, I've encountered this outlook regarding SS frets in multiple guitar communities and I just can't wrap my head around it. Does everybody else put acid on their fingers when they play guitars with nickel silver frets or something? Like, less servicing time over the life of a guitar for fret wear. Got it. How often do you need a fret level or a refret? Is this more of a used guitar purchase thing, more peace of mind knowing the frets are already level and shouldn't have worn as much?
> 
> I really want to understand this one.



For me it's a number of things. Durability and peace of mind is one, but I'm lucky to have a few guitars and to have only ever had to do a refret once so it's not really the main one. Your point on buying used is good too. I definitely have less concerns buying a guitar with stainless steel frets.

The main thing though is really the glassy smooth feel which never gets in the way of expression on bends and vibratos. I love PRS, but they're among the guitars I play kinda less, and it's a small detail but a good part of that is due to the fret feel. And that's with PRS actually being among the best in non-stainless. Now this is subjective and I'm sure there are people who actually prefer a bit of friction, but for me that's the reason if I had to pick one.

As far as objective things go, I do find I have less string wear and breakage with stainless (I attribute that to no rust buildup at all and no small invisible wear on the frets that wear down the strings).

Re: the note on 2020, it's a matter of people's perceptions changing and more availability. A few years ago people were still using SS frets as an argument _against _some brands ("stop talking about how your stainless steel frets are great, my Ibanez with REAL frets is a much better guitar"), there were still a lot of cliches ("luthiers say it's bad", "stainless steel frets don't even sound good" etc), and it was hard to get a hold of them.
Now that it's common practice to see them on the high end stuff all around (TA/Suhr, Aristides, EBMM, even Ibanez starting to put them on the very high end...) people are starting to see there's no downside for the player, and we're seeing more availability too as a result. So it _can_ become a make or break because the choice is there. Today if I have to chose between a Schecter Elite with stainless steel frets and a Jackson import without, this will weigh heavily in the balance if I'm going to feel the difference every time on every bend. Couple of years back it wouldn't have been a make or break in some cases, but just a break or break  because there was no option (I mean...except Carvin, but people are going to say again that I'm too big of a fanboi so..).


----------



## RiksRiks

mbardu said:


> For me it's a number of things. Durability and peace of mind is one, but I'm lucky to have a few guitars and to have only ever had to do a refret once so it's not really the main one. Your point on buying used is good too. I definitely have less concerns buying a guitar with stainless steel frets.
> 
> The main thing though is really the glassy smooth feel which never gets in the way of expression on bends and vibratos. I love PRS, but they're among the guitars I play kinda less, and it's a small detail but a good part of that is due to the fret feel. And that's with PRS actually being among the best in non-stainless. Now this is subjective and I'm sure there are people who actually prefer a bit of friction, but for me that's the reason if I had to pick one.
> 
> As far as objective things go, I do find I have less string wear and breakage with stainless (I attribute that to no rust buildup at all and no small invisible wear on the frets that wear down the strings).
> 
> Re: the note on 2020, it's a matter of people's perceptions changing and more availability. A few years ago people were still using SS frets as an argument _against _some brands ("stop talking about how your stainless steel frets are great, my Ibanez with REAL frets is a much better guitar"), there were still a lot of cliches ("luthiers say it's bad", "stainless steel frets don't even sound good" etc), and it was hard to get a hold of them.
> Now that it's common practice to see them on the high end stuff all around (TA/Suhr, Aristides, EBMM, even Ibanez starting to put them on the very high end...) people are starting to see there's no downside for the player, and we're seeing more availability too as a result. So it _can_ become a make or break because the choice is there. Today if I have to chose between a Schecter Elite with stainless steel frets and a Jackson import without, this will weigh heavily in the balance if I'm going to feel the difference every time on every bend. Couple of years back it wouldn't have been a make or break in some cases, but just a break or break  because there was no option (I mean...except Carvin, but people are going to say again that I'm too big of a fanboi so..).



I was just reading over the whole argument in the last few pages. I don't come to argue, since I personally don't have a lot of experience ordering directly from Kiesel (I've played a number of them but even then maybe not so many), but to be honest, I also agree with another poster that you may find WMI instruments that feel on par with what you describe as "Kiesels with no non-returnable options" now, I think you mentioned the fact that you have a wider pool of options even with the non-returnable put aside, I think you're right but honestly it comes to a matter of preference. As I said, I've only played a few (mainly 6's but I own an 8) and again PERSONALLY I'd prefer a Charvel 24dk 2pt over any similar spec'd Kiesel. Even in that case, I can be pretty sure that my Roasted Maple and Fingerboard will match, at less than the price of a Kiesel, is that asking too much? 

But then again, objectively speaking none of us can say that a guitar is better than another just because some specs (I'm looking at you, SS) if you already are fixed on your idea that Kiesels are the best bang for the buck ever, us showing you endless options from anywhere else is just a meaningless endeavor.


----------



## sharedEQ

Stainless frets, from a wear perspective are overkill, and can actually be a detriment.

My experience having guitars leveled, refretted, plekked, and now doing my own crown and levels, is that the neck wood and fret profile changes over time faster than the fret material wears away.

When you level the neck or get it plekked, the guitar will never play better than at that moment. Over the next 3 5 7 years, the wood swells, contracts, and over time changes. Despite truss adjustments it will never be as perfect as when it was leveled.

I haven't had a single guitar over 25 years that the neck didn't change.

What this means is that regardless of fret wear, even if you have stainless frets that weren't played, it will still need another level down the road. New guitars are the most volatile, you can almost expect new guitars to need a level in a couple years.

And here's the thing, stainless frets take a ton more work to crown. So a level and crown job is now a many hour job.

They really aren't all they're cracked up to be.


----------



## mbardu

sharedEQ said:


> Stainless frets, from a wear perspective are overkill, and can actually be a detriment.
> 
> They really aren't all they're cracked up to be.



That's fine if wear was the main argument. And again the age old argument that they are harder to work with for hobbyists or luthier.

The real argument for most proponents of stainless is play feel though. And that has nothing to do with the above. Short of polishing your frets every other session you're just not going to get the same feel with nickel. Again, maybe it's not your thing subjectively, but it's undeniable and important for many people.

Ps: i have with me a couple of 20+ year old guitars that have never required significant neck adjustment. So not all instruments are going to see their neck move so much that they need a level or PLEK. That's also what makes a good guitar. That's why I recommend always splurging for the 300$ Chinese Agiles which will truly stand the test of time!


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Crash Dandicoot said:


> 'm genuinely curious, I've encountered this outlook regarding SS frets in multiple guitar communities and I just can't wrap my head around it. Does everybody else put acid on their fingers when they play guitars with nickel silver frets or something? Like, less servicing time over the life of a guitar for fret wear. Got it. How often do you need a fret level or a refret? Is this more of a used guitar purchase thing, more peace of mind knowing the frets are already level and shouldn't have worn as much?



There are lots of benefits of SS vs nickel:

They don't oxidise so you never have to polish them. Within a week after polishing nickel frets I notice they've changed colour or if you haven't taken it out of its case in a while. With SS they are the same on day one as day 1000.
They stay super smooth. Nickel frets slowly lose their smoothness once you start playing or let the frets oxidise and you start to feel drag when you bend.
Strings last longer(only when polished super smooth). With nickel the way they wear and oxidise it causes the strings to wear faster.
They don't wear. At least after a thousand hours of playtime I've no wear on my Carillions. 30 seconds of playtime causes wear on nickel. You will eventually need a fret dress and even a refret once you start encountering problems. I've worn down a few guitars, it depends on the quality of the fret material but even the hardest nickel still wears away.

I often have to go weeks or even months without playing cause of work so SS frets are the biggest godsend for me. I can take out my guitar knowing the frets are still as level and smooth as when I put it away. It's just one less thing to worry about. SS frets on a guitar is like a car where the tyres never wear.

I should point out thats only when they are done correctly. If they aren't crowned and levelled properly then its going to cost you a lot to get them corrected by your average guitar tech because they don't like working with SS. Also if they aren't polished correctly then they will wear strings down a lot faster than nickel because the strings will never smoothen out SS frets the way nickel can be. Its why I don't like SS being used on mass production guitars where the extra bit of attention isn't being given to the fretwork.


----------



## spudmunkey

Approx 20% of people have at least some sort of allergy (even if "symptoms" are imperceptible) to nickel. So that's twice as many people as left-handed people. It a significant t quantity, but important for some folks.

For me, good stainless frets feel like a fresh nickel fret job, but...like...always.


----------



## soliloquy

Crash Dandicoot said:


> I like SS frets too, but I can't imagine it being a make-or-break deciding factor if you like an instrument. Why is it a mandatory feature "in 2020" specifically?
> 
> I'm genuinely curious, I've encountered this outlook regarding SS frets in multiple guitar communities and I just can't wrap my head around it. Does everybody else put acid on their fingers when they play guitars with nickel silver frets or something? Like, less servicing time over the life of a guitar for fret wear. Got it. How often do you need a fret level or a refret? Is this more of a used guitar purchase thing, more peace of mind knowing the frets are already level and shouldn't have worn as much?
> 
> I really want to understand this one.



For me, it's acidic sweat. However, the issue isn't visible in US and Japanese guitars so far.

Previously, my Agiles, peavey, deans, Ibanez, PRS SE, and bunch of others, I'd start noticing slight dips in frets within a month or two of playing (mostly Korean and Indonesian frets)

Once I switched to Carvin ss frets, the issue disappeared. I sold my carvins, got an Edwards, Taylor and Gibson, and the issue seems to have all but gone.

I do eat through strings rather quickly though. So something about frets certain nickle alloy and my sweat don't go together.


----------



## sharedEQ

soliloquy said:


> For me, it's acidic sweat. However, the issue isn't visible in US and Japanese guitars so far.
> 
> Previously, my Agiles, peavey, deans, Ibanez, PRS SE, and bunch of others, I'd start noticing slight dips in frets within a month or two of playing (mostly Korean and Indonesian frets)
> 
> Once I switched to Carvin ss frets, the issue disappeared. I sold my carvins, got an Edwards, Taylor and Gibson, and the issue seems to have all but gone.
> 
> I do eat through strings rather quickly though. So something about frets certain nickle alloy and my sweat don't go together.


My hands are dry and neutral.

I usually only replace strings when they break. I can get hundreds of hours from a set. When I buy a set, I also buy two extra 9s because that string is the one that eventually breaks.

After a year of playing the strings are still shiny.

I never let anyone play my guitars because I've made that mistake before. Even after just a few minutes, the guitar gets this oily schmunda that I can feel and will cause strings to dirty and blacken.

So yeah I guess some ppl need ss. Although I think the real culprit is probably smoking or dirty hands. Always surprised at reports of fecal matter on ppls phones. Ppl are dirty and grubby. I imagine kiesels hands are like that. A guy who treats ppl that way is not someone who washes his hands after taking a dump.

However, I don't buy the oxidation argument. Within a few minutes of playing a guitar, any resistance is wiped clean. Steel wool at string changes takes 30 seconds.

Ss strings are largely a marketing gimick. But that's human nature. Ppl need to believe they are getting something better.

They create more problems than they solve but they do help sell guitars.


----------



## Jeff

sharedEQ said:


> Stainless frets, from a wear perspective are overkill, and can actually be a detriment.
> 
> My experience having guitars leveled, refretted, plekked, and now doing my own crown and levels, is that the neck wood and fret profile changes over time faster than the fret material wears away.
> 
> When you level the neck or get it plekked, the guitar will never play better than at that moment. Over the next 3 5 7 years, the wood swells, contracts, and over time changes. Despite truss adjustments it will never be as perfect as when it was leveled.
> 
> I haven't had a single guitar over 25 years that the neck didn't change.
> 
> What this means is that regardless of fret wear, even if you have stainless frets that weren't played, it will still need another level down the road. New guitars are the most volatile, you can almost expect new guitars to need a level in a couple years.
> 
> And here's the thing, stainless frets take a ton more work to crown. So a level and crown job is now a many hour job.
> 
> They really aren't all they're cracked up to be.



Yes, they are. If you’re tech is any good, and has the right tools, none of that other stuff matters. My tech has never complained, and never charged me more money, in the ten years I’ve had necks with stainless.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Jeff said:


> Yes, they are. If you’re tech is any good, and has the right tools, none of that other stuff matters. My tech has never complained, and never charged me more money, in the ten years I’ve had necks with stainless.



Yeah, this was more of a big deal a decade or so ago when no one was really stocking them, used to working on them, or had the tools available. 

Since then, the market has corrected significantly and the tools and supplies are far more commonplace, and cheaper. 

That's not to say some shops still charge a little more, but it's nowhere like it was in like 2003.


----------



## diagrammatiks

ya no one good charges more for ss now. a full refret isn't even that expensive.


----------



## Jeff

MaxOfMetal said:


> Yeah, this was more of a big deal a decade or so ago when no one was really stocking them, used to working on them, or had the tools available.
> 
> Since then, the market has corrected significantly and the tools and supplies are far more commonplace, and cheaper.
> 
> That's not to say some shops still charge a little more, but it's nowhere like it was in like 2003.



Agreed. 

This guy went to Roberto Venn, worked for Washburn’s custom shop, and now has a couple decades on his own:

https://tullysshop.com/$

great guy, great work.


----------



## cardinal

I had hoped for a Kiesel 9-string by now. Has he said anything about that possibility? 

I'd hoped that Babymetal's Metal Galaxy could help 9-strings push a bit more mainstream.


----------



## trem licking

cardinal said:


> I had hoped for a Kiesel 9-string by now. Has he said anything about that possibility?
> 
> I'd hoped that Babymetal's Metal Galaxy could help 9-strings push a bit more mainstream.


You get your 9 string after i get my 8 with floyd. Deal? Deal. Heh


----------



## Jeff

I want a guitar with a quartersawn, roasted maple neck with graphite rods, a nitro satin finish, richlite fretboard, and SS frets. It’ll never require maintenance! LOL


----------



## mbardu

Jeff said:


> I want a guitar with a quartersawn, roasted maple neck with graphite rods, a nitro satin finish, richlite fretboard, and SS frets. It’ll never require maintenance! LOL



I mean, if you really want to go 100% the no maintenance way, just get an Aristides.


----------



## laxu

Regarding fretwire, there is a marked difference in the cheap stuff you find in cheaper Asian built guitars vs something like Jescar. I ordered my Kiesel with Jescar nickel fretwire and unless Kiesel fucked up and installed stainless, that stuff is far more durable than cheaper fretwire. Dunlop nickel fretwire has lasted quite nicely in my experience as well.

So not even the nickel stuff is the same across makers.


----------



## Jeff

mbardu said:


> I mean, if you really want to go 100% the no maintenance way, just get an Aristides.



I plan to, some day. Waiting to see what the headless looks like, but the regular 060R is cool too.


----------



## spudmunkey

cardinal said:


> I had hoped for a Kiesel 9-string by now. Has he said anything about that possibility?



No plans, and not like a "maybe some day", but he's seeing a decline overall in 8 string as it is, and doesnt think it's because people are awaiting a 9...just a slow shift away from more than 7 strings.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> No plans, and not like a "maybe some day", but he's seeing a decline overall in 8 string as it is, and doesnt think it's because people are awaiting a 9...just a slow shift away from more than 7 strings.



I could see them dropping a 9 out of nowhere like they did the 7-string Zeus Bass. 

But yeah, seems that 8s have been on a sharp decline the last couple years. All the major manufacturers have been rolling back their offerings.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> I could see them dropping a 9 out of nowhere like they did the 7-string Zeus Bass.



I think it would take a big-enough endorsed artist who plays 9, or a friend of Jeff's. That's how we got the 7-string Zeus, Solo bass, etc.


----------



## cardinal

Yeah I don't know the story of it, but seeing the crazy Zeus 7-string bass made me think a 9-string guitar might be possible. 

bummer that 8s are becoming more obscure. Having 7s, 8s, and a 9, I really feel most comfortable on an 8 with about a 27" scale. The 9 at 28" is a bit uncomfortable. And the 7s feel so small.


----------



## sharedEQ

Jeff said:


> Yes, they are. If you’re tech is any good, and has the right tools, none of that other stuff matters. My tech has never complained, and never charged me more money, in the ten years I’ve had necks with stainless.


Have you ever wondered why they plane the fretboard when they refret?

It's because the wood changes shape. The longer wearing nature of stainless doesn't overcome the changing wood.

They could have moved to stainless 40 years ago if they wanted. Ss solves a problem that doesn't exist. It's marketing.

Ppl have also suggested it will wear through strings faster. That's not cool either.

They aren't for everyone. They aren't superior. They help sell guitars to ppl who don't have a long term perspective.

Run steel wool over the frets at string changes if you need that just polished feel.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

sharedEQ said:


> Have you ever wondered why they plane the fretboard when they refret?
> 
> It's because the wood changes shape.



The fretboard is radius sanded prior to new fret install, after the old frets have been pulled, to give you a clean, even surface to work. The removal of frets causes all kinds of issues. It's a nice fresh start. It's not exactly a 100% necessity, as you'll radius, level, and crown the new frets anyways. 

Fretboards can develop humps and dips, but that's something else and can be spot corrected if need be. The fix for that, if not extreme, is the same for nickel silver and stainless steel frets.

For the record, I'm fret material agnostic.


----------



## Hollowway

I’m a few pages behind, but @mbardu there was that one case where the customer returned a guitar within the 10 day window but they said you actually only have about 7-8 days because of shipping. Despite the website saying otherwise. And in other instances people have said that they lost a few days just waiting for Kiesel to get back to them about a return. So while technically you can return a guitar, it isn’t the way they promote it. Is a shorter time frame, and they don’t make it an easy process. Jeff likes having that on the website, but is loathe to use it. It’s like buying something on late night TV where they say “if you’re not satisfied, return it for a full refund.” No one who’s ever been down that road actually believes you’ll get your money back without a huge amount of time and headache involved. The bottom line is that they have decent guitars, but manage to suck the joy out of them by their customer service and less than honest transactions. (As an aside, there was a time a few years ago when I called to buy a Jason Becker Numbers, and I asked them why the in stock guitars showed $200 off, but were still the same price as a new one. Mike Jones told me they just plus it up, and then subtract it for the website so it looks like a good deal. I asked him why anyone would buy one in stock then, if it wasn’t any cheaper than a fresh build. He said it would be faster to receive it. I asked him if that wasn’t sort of misleading to make it seem like they were discounted, when in fact they were not cheaper at all, and he got all pissy with me. After that whenever I see an in stock I assume it’s no cheaper than anything in the regular builder. Or sometimes I’ll even build one out in the builder with the same specs, just to see what the price is. To me, that lack of integrity worries me. It’s also illegal in the state of California, but I doubt anyone’s going to bust them.)


----------



## Lorcan Ward

sharedEQ said:


> Ss solves a problem that doesn't exist. It's marketing.



Fret wear, oxidisation, string drag don’t exist anymore? When did that happen?



sharedEQ said:


> Ppl have also suggested it will wear through strings faster. That's not cool either.



Only if the frets haven’t been polished properly. If they are rough they will wear down regular nickel strings quicker. Nickel frets do the exact same but try will smoothen out will play time. With SS frets they won’t smoothen our because the strings will wear first.



sharedEQ said:


> They help sell guitars to ppl who don't have a long term perspective..



What? Are you aware what you are even arguing about? Frets that won’t ever wear or oxidise so they will never need any maintenance would be the definition of long term planning while nickel wouldn’t be since you will need routine polishing and eventual fret dresses and a refret at some stage. Again think of it as car tyres that don’t wear. 



sharedEQ said:


> Run steel wool over the frets at string changes if you need that just polished feel.



Or how about never having to do that again.......


----------



## _MonSTeR_

The trouble with stainless steel frets is that I also have an account at TGP, and so I'm not allowed to compromise that 1.3% increase in the brightness of the tone from a modern invention without public ridicule!!!


----------



## xzacx

_MonSTeR_ said:


> The trouble with stainless steel frets is that I also have an account at TGP, and so I'm not allowed to compromise that 1.3% increase in the brightness of the tone from a modern invention without public ridicule!!!


*Alleged increase, mostly argued by people who haven’t heard both types of frets on the same guitar and have no frame of reference for where said brightness is derived and admit it is only noticeable unplugged on the couch. That said, I think it’s just as silly to buy on specs alone, with not having stainless being a dealbreaker. I prefer stainless if given the choice, and would only ever get something refretted with them, but I don’t really even inquire about feet material if I like a guitar otherwise.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

xzacx said:


> *Alleged increase, mostly argued by people who haven’t heard both types of frets on the same guitar and have no frame of reference for where said brightness is derived and admit it is only noticeable unplugged on the couch. That said, I think it’s just as silly to buy on specs alone, with not having stainless being a dealbreaker. I prefer stainless if given the choice, and would only ever get something refretted with them, but I don’t really even inquire about feet material if I like a guitar otherwise.



It’s not whether *I* can tell the difference, or whether *you* can tell the difference it’s the FACT that TGP can tell the difference, blindfolded, on guitars they’ve not even played, from 3000 miles away.


----------



## Seabeast2000

_MonSTeR_ said:


> It’s not whether *I* can tell the difference, or whether *you* can tell the difference it’s the FACT that TGP can tell the difference, blindfolded, on guitars they’ve not even played, from 3000 miles away.


Now that sounds authentic.


----------



## Frostbite

xzacx said:


> *Alleged increase, mostly argued by people who haven’t heard both types of frets on the same guitar and have no frame of reference for where said brightness is derived and admit it is only noticeable unplugged on the couch. That said, I think it’s just as silly to buy on specs alone, with not having stainless being a dealbreaker. I prefer stainless if given the choice, and would only ever get something refretted with them, but I don’t really even inquire about feet material if I like a guitar otherwise.


I mean that's definitely anecdotal. I've spoke with Nick from Axe Palce on this exact topic and he's convinced there's a difference. Dude's handled more high end guitars then any of us so I'm inclined to think there's something there


----------



## spudmunkey

Not all that many years ago, stainless frets were sort of a reverse canary in the coal mine. It wasnt something commonly found on lower tier instruments. If you saw a guitar ad or spec list that mentioned them, it wouldn't be silly to assume it was a higher quality instrument. Nowadays you can find them all over the place at many price/ quality levels.


----------



## Frostbite

I just watched the live stream clip. The fact that Jeff literally FLEXED and said "We're just working , we're making it happen" is cartoon levels of holy shit I can't believe this is happening.


----------



## diagrammatiks

spudmunkey said:


> Not all that many years ago, stainless frets were sort of a reverse canary in the coal mine. It wasnt something commonly found on lower tier instruments. If you saw a guitar ad or spec list that mentioned them, it wouldn't be silly to assume it was a higher quality instrument. Nowadays you can find them all over the place at many price/ quality levels.



I don't think they are really an indicator of anything anymore. once the factory is set up to assembly line them it isn't a big issue. it's not like they are diamond hard compared to nickel.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Back when I used to play and practice the most, it took me 3 and a half years of playing probably 12 - 15 hours a week to even notice enough fretwear to go out and have a fret level performed. Your frets lose their luster because your strings corrode from your sweat and folks typically don't wipe down the bottom of their strings, so of course when you're bending and pushing your corroded strings into your frets, that is the true cause of your fretwear.

Jack Gardiner's pretty much only played his main blue Suhr for almost a decade prior to his switch over to Strandberg and he developed some decent wear into his frets and he's playing his guitar just fine. Stainless steel is a lovely material to make frets out of, and if given the choice I will opt into it but lets stop pretending Nickel makes a guitar unplayable. Especially if you own enough instruments to cycle through them when you play, it'll take you 20+ years to see this level of wear on your guitars.




Video for reference:


----------



## BigViolin

Jeff said:


> Agreed.
> 
> This guy went to Roberto Venn, worked for Washburn’s custom shop, and now has a couple decades on his own:
> 
> https://tullysshop.com/$
> 
> great guy, great work.



That guy's a fucking baller for only charging $20 extra for f-hole electronic work.


----------



## Jeff

sharedEQ said:


> Have you ever wondered why they plane the fretboard when they refret?
> 
> It's because the wood changes shape. The longer wearing nature of stainless doesn't overcome the changing wood.
> 
> They could have moved to stainless 40 years ago if they wanted. Ss solves a problem that doesn't exist. It's marketing.
> 
> Ppl have also suggested it will wear through strings faster. That's not cool either.
> 
> They aren't for everyone. They aren't superior. They help sell guitars to ppl who don't have a long term perspective.
> 
> Run steel wool over the frets at string changes if you need that just polished feel.



Christ dude, you really have no idea what you’re talking about. You might want to spend some time talking to a real tech that deals with SS frets on a regular basis, before posting stuff like this. No, it’s not the be all/end all. I have guitars with SS frets, and some with nickel. The nickel equipped guitars are going on 18-23 years of regular play, and the stainless for over a decade. There’s a definite benefit to SS in some regard. 
If you have a buffoon for a guitar tech, then by all means; get just nickel.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

What about for the guys who like to do the fret stuff themselves - there isn't (that I know of) a good guitar tech in my area... Can Joe Public do his own SS fretwork?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

_MonSTeR_ said:


> What about for the guys who like to do the fret stuff themselves - there isn't (that I know of) a good guitar tech in my area... Can Joe Public do his own SS fretwork?



It's no more complex than regular fretwork. It's just a harder material so it'll take some more effort. Go slow and don't slip. 

Fretwork isn't difficult, it's just time consuming and you can easily "oops" if you don't take it slow relative to your skill level.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Are folks just using the same tools? or..?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Are folks just using the same tools? or..?



Pretty much. If you're just doing the occasional work it doesn't matter too much. You won't completely destroy the files and such on a single stainless steel fret job.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Thanks, Max. I'm running out of excuses then! Now, if only I can convince the peer pressure crowd at TGP!!!


----------



## diagrammatiks

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Thanks, Max. I'm running out of excuses then! Now, if only I can convince the peer pressure crowd at TGP!!!



the only thing you need to understand about tgp is that they are a group of people that have run 20 solid state pedals into their tubes amps for that authentic tube sound and haven't changed their amp or pedal settings in 20 years. 

if you can change other parts of your setup a little brightness (if it actually exists) doesn't matter at all.


----------



## Jonathan20022

There is no perceived "brightness" in the change from Nickel to Stainless Steel. I remember running this experiment when I got my RG550 refretted to stainless and recorded it in a session. 

It sounded exactly the same, that misinformation created some serious placebo and phobia of SS in those crowds. Nickel is still a metal, it doesn't ping brighter or duller than any other material when you pluck a string and it slaps back on a fret


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Same. I had two guitars I owned for a long time re-fretted and there was zero difference in tone from changing the fret material. I was a little bit worried there might be since one was already quite bright anyway but there was no noticeable change.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Jonathan20022 said:


> There is no perceived "brightness" in the change from Nickel to Stainless Steel. I remember running this experiment when I got my RG550 refretted to stainless and recorded it in a session.
> 
> It sounded exactly the same, that misinformation created some serious placebo and phobia of SS in those crowds. Nickel is still a metal, it doesn't ping brighter or duller than any other material when you pluck a string and it slaps back on a fret



But the internet trve klt tone purity zeitgeist going back decades is settled science!


----------



## spudmunkey

Amusingly, Andy James' signature Kiesel guitar comes with nickel frets...when the entire rest of the company's range has stainless frets...so at least 1 person feels pretty strongly about it them. I *believe* his reasoning is tone, too, and not feel (I've heard from a couple of primarily-blues players who prefer a little friction/grit to their bends on a not-fret fret polish, acting as a sort of like a violin bow for increased sustain on their vibrato).


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Jonathan20022 said:


> There is no perceived "brightness" in the change from Nickel to Stainless Steel. I remember running this experiment when I got my RG550 refretted to stainless and recorded it in a session.
> 
> It sounded exactly the same, that misinformation created some serious placebo and phobia of SS in those crowds. Nickel is still a metal, it doesn't ping brighter or duller than any other material when you pluck a string and it slaps back on a fret



Just because your layman's ears can't tell the difference doesn't mean that the bat-like hearing of the TGP collective can't hear the difference! 

As The906 said, you can't mess with the zeitgeist!!!


----------



## xzacx

Jonathan20022 said:


> There is no perceived "brightness" in the change from Nickel to Stainless Steel. I remember running this experiment when I got my RG550 refretted to stainless and recorded it in a session.
> 
> It sounded exactly the same, that misinformation created some serious placebo and phobia of SS in those crowds. Nickel is still a metal, it doesn't ping brighter or duller than any other material when you pluck a string and it slaps back on a fret





Lorcan Ward said:


> Same. I had two guitars I owned for a long time re-fretted and there was zero difference in tone from changing the fret material. I was a little bit worried there might be since one was already quite bright anyway but there was no noticeable change.



Same here, I had a “fretless wonder” LPC that I just always wanted bigger frets on, so I went with stainless, and the only difference was it played a lot better. There was absolutely no sonic difference—that was audible to my ears anyway, and it was something I’d played every day. No disrespect to anyone's opinion, but "handling more high end guitars than any of us" wouldn't really give anyone much perspective on this unless they were having them refretted, and who the hell is putting nickel frets on new guitars that already have stainless? How could you possibly attribute any brightness (or anything else for that matter) on a sample that's only being compared to itself?


----------



## bostjan

Maybe I ought to fire up a kickstarter for tungsten frets. Throw in plenty of unverifiable tone claims and a good helping of possibility that there will never be an actual product.

Anyway, I think SS frets are cool. Some people are allergic to nickel. Maybe the nickel in SS is less likely to trigger a reaction than the nickel in cupronickel. I've had a couple Parker Flys since the late 1990's and played them a lot in that time, and never had any issues with the frets. I've had my Oni 8 for well over a decade now, playing it a lot at home and out and about, including a couple of tours, and I've never done anything to the frets. Meanwhile, other guitars I've taken on tour have had to be recrowned several times or even had to have the frets completely replaced. I know it's anecdotal, but personally, I believe SS frets generally require less maintenance. To be fair, though I have had to work on other people's guitars with SS frets,including at least one Carvin. It didn't ruin my tools, but I sure had to put in some extra effort in terms of elbow grease.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

spudmunkey said:


> Amusingly, Andy James' signature Kiesel guitar comes with nickel frets...when the entire rest of the company's range has stainless frets...so at least 1 person feels pretty strongly about it them. I *believe* his reasoning is tone, too, and not feel (I've heard from a couple of primarily-blues players who prefer a little friction/grit to their bends on a not-fret fret polish, acting as a sort of like a violin bow for increased sustain on their vibrato).



Andy dislikes the always new super smooth feel of SS, preferring the broken-in rough feel of nickel. Chap could pick up a 2 X 4 and still play well though regardless of gear.


----------



## StevenC

Guys! stainlesssteel.org is available!


----------



## spudmunkey

Fiiiiinally some detailed info about the new "Mark's Singles" single coil pickups.

Summary from video below:

Alnico 2

Neck pickup: Heavy Build formvar wire
Middle pickup: Heavy Build formvar wire
Bridge pickup: Brown plain enamel wire

Scatter-wound, by CNC for repeatability in terms of pattern and tension.

Lightly wax-potted

Still using a machine built by founder Lowell Kiesel built in the 50s to "magnetize" the pickups.


----------



## lurè

stainless frets affects tone as much as a fart affects world pollution


----------



## Jeff

lurè said:


> stainless frets affects tone as much as a fart affects world pollution



Actually, not a good comparison; cow farts collectively are enough to damage the environment.


----------



## Splenetic

lurè said:


> stainless frets affects tone as much as a fart affects world pollution



I see my farts haven't reached Italy....... yet.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Jeff said:


> Actually, not a good comparison; cow farts collectively are enough to damage the environment.



But most of that is undone from the grass they eat. (At least in countries that aren't demolishing rainforests for pasture or housing all year round on a mass scale).


----------



## devastone

lurè said:


> stainless frets affects tone as much as a fart affects world pollution



Excessive flatulance can decrease your opportunities to procreate.


----------



## spudmunkey

Roasted plain maple necks and fretboards are now free. If you call in (not on the web, only by calling at least for now) you can select light, medium, or darker coloring.

Flamed, birdseye, quilted will continue to be an upcharge for roasted options.

As for "if roasted is free, why would anyone get unroasted?", a couple reasons could be:
1) Aesthetics (unroasted is generally still lighter in color, and maybe preferable on some builds..including my own in-the-oven (pun intended) SH6, with a plain maple and purpleheart 5-piece neck).
2) They don't currently roast wood long enough for any neck through except the standard scale headless
3) They currently don't offer any of their multi-piece necks in roasted maple. No 3, 5 or 7 piece necks are available with any roasted maple


----------



## oneblackened

I hate to be that guy... but that "dark roast" looks more like "burnt" than "roasted"...


----------



## sezna

what about a dark roast to unroasted fade fretboard?

oh no, now that I've said it, is Jeff contractually obligated to create it?


----------



## spudmunkey

sezna said:


> what about a dark roast to unroasted fade fretboard?
> 
> oh no, now that I've said it, is Jeff contractually obligated to create it?



Especially if he says, "no plans"


----------



## AdenM

Curious as to what a luthier's take is on the "dark roast". I'm not sure if Kiesel's roast is actually a stain or really a roast, but is heating the wood to that color bad for the structural integrity? I feel like we'd see more maple roasted to that color otherwise - maybe I'm just not looking in the right places.


----------



## spudmunkey

AdenM said:


> Curious as to what a luthier's take is on the "dark roast". I'm not sure if Kiesel's roast is actually a stain or really a roast, but is heating the wood to that color bad for the structural integrity? I feel like we'd see more maple roasted to that color otherwise - maybe I'm just not looking in the right places.



As of The beginning of last year, Kiesel has been offering actual oven-roasted maple for necks and fretboards, and roasted ash bodies.


----------



## mbardu

AdenM said:


> Curious as to what a luthier's take is on the "dark roast". I'm not sure if Kiesel's roast is actually a stain or really a roast, but is heating the wood to that color bad for the structural integrity? I feel like we'd see more maple roasted to that color otherwise - maybe I'm just not looking in the right places.



My take on it was not necessarily that they were going to change anything to their actual process for roasting the necks (to the point of extra roasting and make the wood brittle). Rather, considering the variations in the source pieces of wood as well as how different each piece can react during the process, there are going to be variations. Just put the pieces in different groups and sell them based on that.

Just assumptions though.


----------



## Electric Wizard

AdenM said:


> Curious as to what a luthier's take is on the "dark roast". I'm not sure if Kiesel's roast is actually a stain or really a roast, but is heating the wood to that color bad for the structural integrity? I feel like we'd see more maple roasted to that color otherwise - maybe I'm just not looking in the right places.


According to John Suhr:


> The more the roast the more the benefit, I have been offered a very light roast which just looked like aged wood but I didn't like it because it didn't really have the same benefits. Like more dimensionally stable. The Vulcanized is the darkest chocolate brown but is also very brittle to work with, hard to refret. There is a happy medium most people use in the light chocolate range. Still OK to work with, very stable. But remember this is a patented process, torrefaction, with patented ovens yet there are people I'm sure selling the stuff that made up their own process.


https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/30371337/


----------



## AdenM

Electric Wizard said:


> According to John Suhr:
> 
> https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/30371337/



Thanks for the info. Seems like each manufacturer may have their own process.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Anderson has been using a thick dark chocolate maple for years. don't really have to worry about how hard it is to work with if they never need a refret.


----------



## cardinal

spudmunkey said:


> Roasted plain maple necks and fretboards are now free. If you call in (not on the web, only by calling at least for now) you can select light, medium, or darker coloring.
> 
> Flamed, birdseye, quilted will continue to be an upcharge for roasted options.
> 
> As for "if roasted is free, why would anyone get unroasted?", a couple reasons could be:
> 1) Aesthetics (unroasted is generally still lighter in color, and maybe preferable on some builds..including my own in-the-oven (pun intended) SH6, with a plain maple and purpleheart 5-piece neck).
> 2) They don't currently roast wood long enough for any neck through except the standard scale headless
> 3) They currently don't offer any of their multi-piece necks in roasted maple. No 3, 5 or 7 piece necks are available with any roasted maple
> 
> View attachment 79859
> 
> 
> View attachment 79860



regarding why choose non-roasted: I've had only one guitar with a roasted neck, and it was expensive. It showed up and was riddled with deadspots. I think it was the G note wouldn't sustain anywhere on the neck. I immediately called the builder who replaced the neck with normal maple and fixed the problem. 

Was it because the neck was roasted? I dunno, but that was just awful and I sure won't buy another guitar with a roasted neck without playing it first.


----------



## Jeff

cardinal said:


> regarding why choose non-roasted: I've had only one guitar with a roasted neck, and it was expensive. It showed up and was riddled with deadspots. I think it was the G note wouldn't sustain anywhere on the neck. I immediately called the builder who replaced the neck with normal maple and fixed the problem.
> *
> Was it because the neck was roasted?* I dunno, but that was just awful and I sure won't buy another guitar with a roasted neck without playing it first.



No.


----------



## ScottThunes1960

cardinal said:


> Was it because the neck was roasted? I dunno



The implications here are mind-boggling.


----------



## spudmunkey

OK, so I had a feeling this was the case...that previous image showing the 3 roast color options, to my eye, looked like they were coming across WAY darker than they actually are. I think the very directional showroom halogen-style mini spotlights combined with the oiled finish, made the darkest sample almost look like ebony.

This photo in their just-uploaded video is more how I pictured it in my head:


----------



## Nlelith

I suddenly remembered this comic, and it's quite fitting.


----------



## narad

Nlelith said:


> I suddenly remembered this comic, and it's quite fitting.



"I'll have the Kiesel roast"

"Fuck you"

"That wasn't very good"

"Well +roast is an option 50 so if you want to return it it's gonna cost you a $250 restocking fee"


----------



## olejason

Anyone have thoughts on the Delos versus Charvel DK22? Similar price points when you spec the Kiesel like the Charvel. Compound radius on the Charvel though is tempting.


----------



## JSanta

olejason said:


> Anyone have thoughts on the Delos versus Charvel DK22? Similar price points when you spec the Kiesel like the Charvel. Compound radius on the Charvel though is tempting.



I like the neck shape on the Charvel way more than anything I've played from Kiesel/Carvin, so that get's my vote. I did own a DC700 right at the time of the switch, and have had my DC400 since 2003. That guitar holds sentimental value for me, which is the only reason I haven't sold it.


----------



## spudmunkey

olejason said:


> Anyone have thoughts on the Delos versus Charvel DK22? Similar price points when you spec the Kiesel like the Charvel. Compound radius on the Charvel though is tempting.



Compound radius is avaliable from Kiesel. 12-16", $80.


----------



## mbardu

olejason said:


> Anyone have thoughts on the Delos versus Charvel DK22? Similar price points when you spec the Kiesel like the Charvel. Compound radius on the Charvel though is tempting.



Both are great guitars.
For me the Kiesel would take the cake because I'm able to pick my own options, and the fretwork is going to be slightly better. Made in USA doesn't hurt and you can tell the finish will also be a bit better. But you can't go wrong with the DK22 either if you like those specific options.


----------



## spudmunkey

Man, this thing is almost a dead-ringer for one of the first guitars I ever lusted for when I was, like, 11. I've got another guitar on it's way, but holy shit...this thing is tickling me in all the right places.

Looks like it's got the Gotoh 510 trem, and with the 22-fretboard spec, that means it's set up as a dive-only bridge.


----------



## spudmunkey

Looks like only a few more weeks until this beauty is in my arms. It's exactly as I pictured it in my head (note: the low-res screenshot from a live video almost blends away the blue tape inside the body, in the f-hole (it's their semi-hollow SH6, not their solid-body CT6).


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

spudmunkey said:


> Looks like only a few more weeks until this beauty is in my arms. It's exactly as I pictured it in my head (note: the low-res screenshot from a live video almost blends away the blue tape inside the body, in the f-hole (it's their semi-hollow SH6, not their solid-body CT6).
> View attachment 80576


Looks great. Semi-hollow is on my list of must haves. But I’m going to spec out a v7x once Black Friday hits. I sold two of my Carvins made right before the switch. Really regret that. My DC700 was super cool and fun to play. I like my rg7620. But the neck carve on the DC700 is just much more comfortable.


----------



## spudmunkey




----------



## spudmunkey

spudmunkey said:


> Looks like only a few more weeks until this beauty is in my arms. It's exactly as I pictured it in my head (note: the low-res screenshot from a live video almost blends away the blue tape inside the body, in the f-hole (it's their semi-hollow SH6, not their solid-body CT6).
> View attachment 80576



This is my 4th Carvin/Kiesel, but the first time seeing it before completion (it was pulled out and shown in the live video yesterday). It's a weird combination of calmness and excitement. Up until Monday, I was going batty. Now, I'm even more excited, but it's an "easier" excitement. Ha!


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> View attachment 80589



I wish I was good enough to enter


----------



## spudmunkey

Ha, same. I'll jam along with it, but yeah...

When people like this are entering the contests, I stand zero chance.  This isn't even the winner (despite his optimistic upload title).


----------



## mbardu

Eeeh might as well post here as well.
An old picture from when I had waaaaay more Carvins compared to today.
Most of those were really great...


----------



## spudmunkey

New model release 4PM today. Has headstock, isn't multiscale. My guess is a signature artist variant on a standard model...

My own SH6 should be shipping sometime in the next week or two. So excited...

Two other interesting builds posted in the last couple of days:








Fretless (with inlayed fret lines) Delos 7-string:


----------



## mbardu

Finally an Explorer? Please??? Like...pleeeeeeaaaaaaase?
I was _this _close to getting a GhostFret but honestly I'd rather not...


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> Finally an Explorer? Please??? Like...pleeeeeeaaaaaaase?
> I was _this _close to getting a GhostFret but honestly I'd rather not...



What we know: it's available in a 6-string, has a headstock, and at least has a non-multiscale version, and the first build to showcase it has a reversed pointy inline headstock.

The apacing of the frets doesn't *look* like it's an extended scale...


----------



## mbardu

Well if it were to be an Explorer, at least this would not be the worst headstock to pair it with so....maybe?


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> What we know: it's available in a 6-string, _*has a headstock*_....



That part just means that whatever it is, Jeff will just chop the head off a few months later for a "type-E" new equivalent headless model


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

I hope it is a jazzmaster type. It would totally come out of left field


----------



## Albake21

I really want it to be a new body shape, especially since it has a headstock. Sadly, I bet it'll just be an artist package with a current model/body shape.


----------



## spudmunkey

It's that 9-string reverse-fan semi-hollow explorer.

In other news, "AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!"


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Boooooooo. Neck through Aries


----------



## mbardu

Whomp Whomp the new model is just a neck-through Aries.
Really not interested...


----------



## spudmunkey

New Model is a neck-through Aries.

I've always wanted a neck-through, but love my aries. I would LOVE love a neck-through Aries.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> New Model is a neck-through Aries.
> 
> I've always wanted a neck-through, but love my aries. I would LOVE love a neck-through Aries.



You gotta admit *another *regular scale length neckthrough doublecut / superstrat was not really the highest priority though


----------



## Albake21

Huh... honestly, I'm actually pretty interested. To be fair, one of the biggest gripes I had with the Aries was the neck heel so it's nice to see the neck through. It definitely helps with the "toy-like look" that I always commented on.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Albake21 said:


> Huh... honestly, I'm actually pretty interested. To be fair, one of the biggest gripes I had with the Aries was the neck heel so it's nice to see the neck through. It definitely helps with the "toy-like look" that I always commented on.



To be fair..


----------



## mbardu

At least that goes to show that Jeff does listen to what people ask in his streams.
"Can I get an Aries in neck-through?" is probably one of the most common questions he gets.


----------



## MSS

I was going to pull the trigger on a new Vader 7 during the $100 promo then I figured I would wait for the Memorial day sale. Looks like that was a mistake. Holding out for the 4th...


----------



## diagrammatiks

what the heck is the difference between the dc and the neck through Aries

I thought the aries was just a bolt on dc.


----------



## GoldDragon

spudmunkey said:


> Ha, same. I'll jam along with it, but yeah...
> 
> When people like this are entering the contests, I stand zero chance.  This isn't even the winner (despite his optimistic upload title).




Great player, but the video looks out of sync with the playing in some parts, like he overdubbed.


----------



## couchguitarplayer

diagrammatiks said:


> what the heck is the difference between the dc and the neck through Aries
> 
> I thought the aries was just a bolt on dc.


 
I always thought the same. The other difference is the included beveled body on the aries. The DC has beveled options but it's different.


----------



## spudmunkey

diagrammatiks said:


> what the heck is the difference between the dc and the neck through Aries
> 
> I thought the aries was just a bolt on dc.



I mean...the Aries was pretty similar, but it didn't start out that way. When the Aries came out, it was 25.5", and the DC600 was 25", and it's horn didn't reach out as far.

The Aries also had that defining feature of that wide bevel...and then they added the "bevel delete" option when they discontinued the C66.

Then, they re-designed the DC series to push the horn out, and flatened the bottom, as well as gave the 6-string the 25.5" scale length. This made the outline much more similar to the Aries. The standard DC and the Bevel Delete Aries, you could basically say that it was just a neck-construction difference between the two, and you wouldn't be far off.

The Aries neck-through still has that wide bevel instead of the more familiar bent-over forearm contour. The DC's optionsl bevels are not meant for comfort. It's basically an aesthetic feature along the top edge, and then a PRS-like fret-access scoop on the treble side of the neck. And while the shape is still *slightly* different, kiesel isn't offering the bevel-delete option on it because it's just too close to the standard DC, so there's no crossover there.

Here's an Aries (with its standard bevel) and the DC (with its optional bevels)






I haven't done an experiment yet to see if it really is a "neck-through Aries" or if they gave the DC the "Aries Bevel."


----------



## spudmunkey

MSS said:


> I was going to pull the trigger on a new Vader 7 during the $100 promo then I figured I would wait for the Memorial day sale. Looks like that was a mistake. Holding out for the 4th...



Well, depending on what your Vader was going to be spec'd there's potential to save more than $100:
Free Antique Ash Treatment (must order ASH), free chambered Body (must order top wood), free inlay shapes upgrade - you pay only for the material, free Thorium or Illusionist bridge pickup upgrade.

And then also free soft case for the new neck-throuhgh Aries.


----------



## Samark

spudmunkey said:


> What we know: it's available in a 6-string, has a headstock, and at least has a non-multiscale version, and the first build to showcase it has a reversed pointy inline headstock.
> 
> The apacing of the frets doesn't *look* like it's an extended scale...



That is one of the most gorgeous things I have ever seen


----------



## spudmunkey

Samark said:


> That is one of the most gorgeous things I have ever seen



I believe it's their royal ebony fretboard and "head plate", on a maple neck.


----------



## Avedas

Wow I was just speccing out a potential Aries build yesterday. Neckthrough sounds great.

Are there any live pictures of the new dark roast plain maple neck/fretboard? I'm pretty interested in that but I couldn't find any real pictures.


----------



## MSS

spudmunkey said:


> Well, depending on what your Vader was going to be spec'd there's potential to save more than $100:
> Free Antique Ash Treatment (must order ASH), free chambered Body (must order top wood), free inlay shapes upgrade - you pay only for the material, free Thorium or Illusionist bridge pickup upgrade.
> 
> And then also free soft case for the new neck-throuhgh Aries.



Unfortunately, none of which I am interested in. Will hold out for the 4th.


----------



## spudmunkey

Avedas said:


> Wow I was just speccing out a potential Aries build yesterday. Neckthrough sounds great.
> 
> Are there any live pictures of the new dark roast plain maple neck/fretboard? I'm pretty interested in that but I couldn't find any real pictures.



I don't think so, but I'll note that they don't offer roasted maple necks on neck-throughs with headstocks. Their ovens are only large enough to fit headless neck-through blanks. Even kiesel's longest 8-string neck-through blanks are still 6-8" shorter than the shortest 6-string neck-through blanks with headstocks. Fretboards: yes. Necks: no.


----------



## mbardu

Just reposting this guy since it's pretty bonkers and might go unnoticed because of recent activity + imgur hosting that hides pictures


----------



## spudmunkey

IT'S IN TRANSIT!!!!

OK, so...because I didn't *quite* know how the finish would turn out, I just got it with the standard black pickups. Once I get it, there's a chance I might swap 'em out for chrome/brushed pickups (even if it's the same pickup model), or possssibly zebra bobbins. I'm one of those weirdos who like the zebra pickups. Ha! I'll need to do a few photoshops once I get it and can get a straight-on photo to work with.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> IT'S IN TRANSIT!!!!
> 
> OK, so...because I didn't *quite* know how the finish would turn out, I just got it with the standard black pickups. Once I get it, there's a chance I might swap 'em out for chrome/brushed pickups (even if it's the same pickup model), or possssibly zebra bobbins. I'm one of those weirdos who like the zebra pickups. Ha! I'll need to do a few photoshops once I get it and can get a straight-on photo to work with.



Do they even offer zebra still? I love them but they're no longer in the builder.
In your case I'd go with chrome anyday though. That's what would match the guitar the best IMHO.


----------



## spudmunkey

Yeah, at least black/white.



Fuckin' A, man...


----------



## Samark

@spudmunkey that looks outstading. Enjoy


----------



## mbardu

Stoked to see that the fretboard appears (at least from those first pictures) just as nice as the other one!


----------



## THEBOTTOMLINE

Have a V8X being built right now. Pretty excited to get my first headless 8 string, im on week 8 right now . It's a pretty simple build, i didnt want to go too crazy with the options on my first one .


----------



## mbardu

THEBOTTOMLINE said:


> Have a V8X being built right now. Pretty excited to get my first headless 8 string, im on week 8 right now . It's a pretty simple build, i didnt want to go too crazy with the options on my first one .



That's the way to go about it 
Order something simple, see what those guitars are about on your own...and worst case scenario send it back if it's not your thing.
You might get hooked though


----------



## GoldDragon

spudmunkey said:


> Yeah, at least black/white.
> View attachment 80880
> 
> 
> Fuckin' A, man...


Looks great. I think it begs for silver pickups and pickup rings.

Or.. you could just replace the knobs with black ones.


----------



## Hatchback Of Notre Dame

diagrammatiks said:


> what the heck is the difference between the dc and the neck through Aries
> 
> I thought the aries was just a bolt on dc.



Aside from the carve, some of the options are different. 22-fret is an Aries option, not a DC option. 20" radius is an Aries option, not a DC option.


----------



## Avedas

spudmunkey said:


> I don't think so, but I'll note that they don't offer roasted maple necks on neck-throughs with headstocks. Their ovens are only large enough to fit headless neck-through blanks. Even kiesel's longest 8-string neck-through blanks are still 6-8" shorter than the shortest 6-string neck-through blanks with headstocks. Fretboards: yes. Necks: no.


That's disappointing, but I guess there's probably a reason every guitar I own is a bolt on. I'm sure I'd be perfectly happy with a bolt on Aries.

Now to just wait until dark roast pics start popping up.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hatchback Of Notre Dame said:


> Aside from the carve, some of the options are different. 22-fret is an Aries option, not a DC option. 20" radius is an Aries option, not a DC option.


20" is a DC option, just maybe not on the builder. Similar to the compound radius option, which also isn't on the builder.


----------



## mbardu

Hatchback Of Notre Dame said:


> Aside from the carve, some of the options are different. 22-fret is an Aries option, not a DC option. 20" radius is an Aries option, not a DC option.



My take on that is that 22 frets is not an option because the guitar is more of a DC than an Aries, and they don't have '22 frets' programmed for DCs.


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> My take on that is that 22 frets is not an option because the guitar is more of a DC than an Aries, and they don't have '22 frets' programmed for DCs.



22 frets on the Neck Through Aries is only "not an option" because he didn't think it would be a priority, but all it would take is for someone to actually order it:


----------



## xzacx

But didn’t they “up and design” the neck-thru Aries without someone ordering it?

That said, I can’t blame them for not being anxious to put that out—I doubt they’re going to get a ton of orders for a 22 fret version. There’s probably not a lot of crossover among people that are so concerned about the placement of the neck pickup that they just have to have 22 frets and those that want it on a 25.5” super Strat.


----------



## Hatchback Of Notre Dame

xzacx said:


> But didn’t they “up and design” the neck-thru Aries without someone ordering it?
> 
> That said, I can’t blame them for not being anxious to put that out—I doubt they’re going to get a ton of orders for a 22 fret version. There’s probably not a lot of crossover among people that are so concerned about the placement of the neck pickup that they just have to have 22 frets and those that want it on a 25.5” super Strat.



Granted, 22-fret, fixed bridge, neck through instruments with stainless steel frets and multi-ply necks practically don't exist.


----------



## spudmunkey

xzacx said:


> But didn’t they “up and design” the neck-thru Aries without someone ordering it?



The "neck through Aries" and "Aries bevel in a DC" questions are some of the most common requests they get, 3rd only to "multiscale trem?" and, "Hey, have you ever thought of having a virtual builder on your website?" I don't see it any differently as not designing a left-handed unless someone orders one, like what they did with the JB24 "Numbers" guitar.


----------



## laxu

I question the need for a neckthru Aries in the first place. The bolt-on heel on it is one of the better ones I've tried and really does not get in the way at all. I feel like they are adding new models just because rather than thinking if it truly adds anything to their lineup.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

laxu said:


> I question the need for a neckthru Aries in the first place. The bolt-on heel on it is one of the better ones I've tried and really does not get in the way at all. I feel like they are adding new models just because rather than thinking if it truly adds anything to their lineup.



I don't see them needing to stock any special parts, so it seems like a smart move. Offering a popular option on an already high seller is never really a bad thing. 

Overall seems like a no-brainer.


----------



## Avedas

It's probably available but there's no bevel delete option in the neckthrough Aries builder.

I actually found a beveled Aries in a shop today, which was really surprising. The bevel is super comfortable but I think I can live without it for the sake of actually getting all of the top I'd like to pay for.


----------



## mbardu

Avedas said:


> It's probably available but there's no bevel delete option in the neckthrough Aries builder.
> 
> I actually found a beveled Aries in a shop today, which was really surprising. The bevel is super comfortable but I think I can live without it for the sake of actually getting all of the top I'd like to pay for.



A bevel delete "aries neckthrough" is just a dc600 because the aries neckthrough is just a dc600 with the bevel 

That's why it's not available.


----------



## spudmunkey

Crossing my fingers.

My SH6 shipped on 5/19. It arrived at the local FedEx hub on 5/21. It was first scheduled to deliver by the end of that day. Then 'pending". Then it got pushed to the next day. Then "pending." After a couple of days, I called FedEx, and they said it would deliver "tomorrow", but online status never changed. Kiesel called them on Thursday and was told they'd hear back on Friday...but they never heard back from them.

Just a bit ago, I got a tracking update that it's scheduled for tomorrow, by end of the day. So 14 days, to go from California to California. 12 of those days, it's been 1.2 miles away from my house. 

Crossing fingers, but expectations are tempered.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

spudmunkey said:


> Crossing my fingers.
> 
> My SH6 shipped on 5/19. It arrived at the local FedEx hub on 5/21. It was first scheduled to deliver by the end of that day. Then 'pending". Then it got pushed to the next day. Then "pending." After a couple of days, I called FedEx, and they said it would deliver "tomorrow", but online status never changed. Kiesel called them on Thursday and was told they'd hear back on Friday...but they never heard back from them.
> 
> Just a bit ago, I got a tracking update that it's scheduled for tomorrow, by end of the day. So 14 days, to go from California to California. 12 of those days, it's been 1.2 miles away from my house.
> 
> Crossing fingers, but expectations are tempered.


What the funk? That’s stupid. I hope you get it soon.


----------



## spudmunkey

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> What the funk? That’s stupid. I hope you get it soon.



Thanks. FedEx told me that it was in a full trailer from a regional hub that still hadn't been unloaded, by the last time I talked to them. I'm not sure how they can just not unload a trailer for over a week... Amusingly, i get (almost) daily (sometimes more than 1 per day) fedex deliveries...just not my guitar. Plus, my WFH "desk" is the dining table in the room closest to the street/driveway, so...that's always annoying.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

spudmunkey said:


> Thanks. FedEx told me that it was in a full trailer from a regional hub that still hadn't been unloaded, by the last time I talked to them. I'm not sure how they can just not unload a trailer for over a week... Amusingly, i get (almost) daily (sometimes more than 1 per day) fedex deliveries...just not my guitar. Plus, my WFH "desk" is the dining table in the room closest to the street/driveway, so...that's always annoying.


It’s just one of those things, the package you’re most anticipating is the one that takes the longest. Coupled with the fact that “freight is moving slow due to covid 19”. Some deliveries we get at work take 4 days. Others 8.


----------



## spudmunkey

After being held at the 1.2 miles-away FedEx hub for 12 days, my new SH6 was delivered. When? I don't know. I went out to my porch when UPS knocked, and saw the guitar standing, leaning against the house...only about 1/2 way down the sidewalk to my "front" door (it's on the side of my home), and was standing up-side-down (headstock down) despite the "this end up" arrows on the box.

The kicker? It is still showing "out for delivery" when I run the tracking number. Here's a photo of the guitar, along with my phone showing that it's still "out for delivery". 

More pics and a more thurough run-down NGD thread/post later this week.


----------



## Seabeast2000

@spudmunkey , beautiful bro.


----------



## xzacx

spudmunkey said:


> After being held at the 1.2 miles-away FedEx hub for 12 days, my new SH6 was delivered. When? I don't know. I went out to my porch when UPS knocked, and saw the guitar standing, leaning against the house...only about 1/2 way down the sidewalk to my "front" door (it's on the side of my home), and was standing up-side-down (headstock down) despite the "this end up" arrows on the box.
> 
> The kicker? It is still showing "out for delivery" when I run the tracking number. Here's a photo of the guitar, along with my phone showing that it's still "out for delivery".
> 
> More pics and a more thurough run-down NGD thread/post later this week.



One-piece top?


----------



## spudmunkey

xzacx said:


> One-piece top?



Yes it is, good eye.

One-piece Burlied maple top in Aqua Candy with a trans blackburst edge, swamp ash body in trans black, ziricote fretboard with offset (not staggered) abalone dots, standard chrome hardware, abalone-topped knobs, their standard (for this model) Berrylium pickups in the standard black with standard silver pole pieces, piezo system electronics upgrade, thicker neck, standard fretboard radius and standard medium jumbo frets, 5-piece maple/purpleheart neck in clear satin, their standard "CT" headstock (in burled maple, and painted to match the body), abalone Kiesel logo.


----------



## xzacx

spudmunkey said:


> Yes it is, good eye.
> 
> One-piece Burlied maple top in Aqua Candy with a trans blackburst edge, swamp ash body in trans black, ziricote fretboard with offset (not staggered) abalone dots, standard chrome hardware, abalone-topped knobs, their standard (for this model) Berrylium pickups in the standard black with standard silver pole pieces, piezo system electronics upgrade, thicker neck, standard fretboard radius and standard medium jumbo frets, 5-piece maple/purpleheart neck in clear satin, their standard "CT" headstock (in burled maple, and painted to match the body), abalone Kiesel logo.



Nice, I'm not a huge figured top fan, but I almost always favor a one-piece top to something super bookmatched and symmetric. I don't know if you saw the top prior to speccing everything out, but it all compliments each other really well.


----------



## spudmunkey

xzacx said:


> Nice, I'm not a huge figured top fan, but I almost always favor a one-piece top to something super bookmatched and symmetric. I don't know if you saw the top prior to speccing everything out, but it all compliments each other really well.



No, I didn't see it first. I do encourage folks to watch their "pick your top" live video sessions for deals (they usually have higher-grade woods at or lower than "standard" grade prices), and to see the specific tops before you buy...however they rarely have anything thick enough for carved-top models, so i went in blind. Thick was a thicc boi billet of burled maple.


----------



## mbardu

Can we have more pictures please  ?


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> Can we have more pictures please  ?


Ugh...

Files are to big to upload here, and imgur hot linking doesnt work here.

So...here is the full gallery:
http://imgur.com/gallery/Rktx8bn

Here are a couple of screenshots:


----------



## Mathemagician

Well someone’s a fan of starry night.


----------



## Avedas

That top is nuts.

A one piece A5 flame maple would be cool to do a build with.


----------



## spudmunkey

Just some fun with an animation app:


----------



## mbardu

Avedas said:


> That top is nuts.
> 
> A one piece A5 flame maple would be cool to do a build with.



They have done some pretty neat builds with one-piece flamed tops.







Still.....Spud's build is better


----------



## Avedas

I really like the look of the CT6, but I'm kinda on the fence on how well I get along with carved tops.

I'm thinking of doing a DC600 for my next build with a blue fade finish on flame maple top with bevels and natural binding, ebony fretboard, and RNC black limba body and neck.

I wonder how much they charge for a fade finish. Probably a lot.


----------



## mbardu

Avedas said:


> I really like the look of the CT6, but I'm kinda on the fence on how well I get along with carved tops.
> 
> I'm thinking of doing a DC600 for my next build with a blue fade finish on flame maple top with bevels and natural binding, ebony fretboard, and RNC black limba body and neck.
> 
> I wonder how much they charge for a fade finish. Probably a lot.



If you go DC600, I don't know if you are aware, but they are now 25.5 scale. The DC127 remains 25, like the CT and CS.
In any case, the carved top is indeed not for everyone. It's not specific to Kiesel, PRS is the same- the ergonomics are certainly different.

Fade used to be 200 _when I asked_- but that was years ago so that most likely increased since.


----------



## spudmunkey

It will also depend on what kind of fade you are looking for, and how many colors. If it's just a fade between their standard sprayed-on transparent paints, it'll be the cheapest, but it'll also be the harshest transition. Making sure the colors you want are more of a subtle shift can help that a bit, like blue to aqua and not blue to green, but it'll still be a pretty abrubt change. This method is basically just like how they do their standard burst finishes, just changing the shape.

Then there's a fade with hand applied dyes/stains. Those are pretty much all done by Jeff, and with this type of finish, there's way more control over blending the colors for a smoother transition. Again, the closer the colors are the better, but the transition will be much much smoother. This type of fade, though, is going to be much more expensive than a sprayed-on fade (likely 2x3 times as much), and also take longer.


----------



## spudmunkey

Mathemagician said:


> Well someone’s a fan of starry night.



sure, but not specifically on purpose for this guitar. I was hoping it would look as close as possible to some colored stabilized burled wood, like you can find for pen/handle turning. In that regard, I don't think it could have turned out better without actually getting a billet of solid wood made like this stuff:







With maybe a little coral reef in there, a bit:


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> sure, but not specifically on purpose for this guitar. I was hoping it would look as close as possible to some colored stabilized burled wood, like you can find for pen/handle turning. In that regard, I don't think it could have turned out better without actually getting a billet of solid wood made like this stuff:



Geeeez, yeah for sure it could not have been any closer. 
So I take it you're happy with the looks then


----------



## Avedas

spudmunkey said:


> It will also depend on what kind of fade you are looking for, and how many colors. If it's just a fade between their standard sprayed-on transparent paints, it'll be the cheapest, but it'll also be the harshest transition. Making sure the colors you want are more of a subtle shift can help that a bit, like blue to aqua and not blue to green, but it'll still be a pretty abrubt change. This method is basically just like how they do their standard burst finishes, just changing the shape.
> 
> Then there's a fade with hand applied dyes/stains. Those are pretty much all done by Jeff, and with this type of finish, there's way more control over blending the colors for a smoother transition. Again, the closer the colors are the better, but the transition will be much much smoother. This type of fade, though, is going to be much more expensive than a sprayed-on fade (likely 2x3 times as much), and also take longer.



I had in mind a 2-3 tone fade to look something like this:














Something like deep blue -> denim (or light blue, or trans white). It looks like Jeff is the one who does these though so I guess I'd have to expect to pay a bit more.
That one with the burl top looks pretty damn good too though.


----------



## spudmunkey

Yeah, to me, at least the top and bottom look like hand-done fades. I'd need to see the middle one to take a guess. I suspect it's also a "by hand" finish, though.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Yeah, to me, at least the top and bottom look like hand-done fades. I'd need to see the middle one to take a guess. I suspect it's also a "by hand" finish, though.



To my eye, the first one looks like it was sanded back in a "denim" way, but only progressively bottom-up to give it the denim _fade _look.

That burled Vader is perfect is though.
Just the right amount of figuring, it looks like an overhead drone shot of the edge of a tropical lagoon.


----------



## Avedas

mbardu said:


> That burled Vader is perfect is though.
> Just the right amount of figuring, it looks like an overhead drone shot of the edge of a tropical lagoon.



That one is really special. Sad that it's probably not reproduceable though.


----------



## spudmunkey

Similar:



I think this is another view of the same Vader.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> I think this is another view of the same Vader.
> View attachment 81503



Jeebus...if it didn't have a trem I would be hunting the owner to buy it...


----------



## Avedas

That thing is juicy. Burl tops are already quite expensive on their own though.


----------



## spudmunkey

Yeah, if it's buckeye, it's $600, aaaaand maybe more because colors work best on tops with more cream colors, so there might be an upcharge for hand-selecting a specific top coloration.


----------



## AxRookie

I'm so happy with my choice of a Kiesel JB200C, It's everything I always wanted in a guitar that nobody else had AND it's gorgeous to boot!











I just installed the Floyd Rose Hollow Point Intonation System which makes intonation sooo easy now! who needs a key now?


----------



## spudmunkey

Looks like a cool upgrade to the Floyd. Hadn't seen those before.

Even when people own multiple Carvins/Kiesel's, it seems like the models that people are most likely to say its their favorite, is the Bolt+, SCB, Vader, JB24, and this one.


----------



## spudmunkey

I hope they show more of the double necks. These things are just nuts.

From what I can tell, this one would be just about at $4k with case. blue/Purple Color shift burst over their black magic metallic paint.








Ths thing is just unreal, too.


----------



## mbardu

Hey I was right during the build...they did turn out fretless!


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> Hey I was right during the build...they did turn out fretless!



Intereatingly the color shift one, the buyer didnt go with the HAN (Hard As Nails) fretboard coating.


----------



## AxRookie

spudmunkey said:


> Looks like a cool upgrade to the Floyd. Hadn't seen those before.
> 
> Even when people own multiple Carvins/Kiesel's, it seems like the models that people are most likely to say its their favorite, is the Bolt+, SCB, Vader, JB24, and this one.


I've made some changes or "upgrades" because there were a few things I wanted it to have because I've had them on other guitars and I know they worked great, These are the changes I've made...

Electronics Upgrades

N-Tune On Board Chromatic Tuner
Bourns Pro Push/Pull Audio Taper 500k Neck/500k Bridge Volume Pots, DPDT
Gavitt Braided Shielded Guitar Wire
Orange Drop .022µF 200V Polypropylene 715P Tone Capacitors
HDCustom Guitar Supply Premium Treble Bypass Filter/Treble Bleeds
Switchcraft 151 1/4" Mono 2 Conductor Thick Panel Mount Jack

Switch Mods

N-Tune On Board Chromatic Tuner-Push/Pull Switch on Neck Volume Pot
The Blower Switch-Push/Pull Bridge Pickup Bypass Switch on Bridge Volume Pot 
The Kill Switch-Signal Cut Off Mini Toggle Switch 

Standard Switches Retained

Pickups-Coil Split Mini Toggle Switches
3-Way Pickup Selector Switch 

Floyd Rose Tremolo Upgrades

Hollow Point Intonation System
Graph Tech String Saver Saddles
Tungsten Sustain Block
SuperVee Maglok Trem Stabilizer 














And I made a wiring custom schematic to make sure it would all work together...








And it all worked just as planned...


----------



## spudmunkey

Another double neck posted today. The 8-string fretless neck looks to be an interesting string arrangement.


----------



## AxRookie

spudmunkey said:


> Another double neck posted today. The 8-string fretless neck looks to be an interesting string arrangement.
> 
> View attachment 81720


I've never understood how fretless necks work?

Man, you wouldn't see a guitar like that coming from any other builders???

Kiesel/Carvin has come a long way in what they can do and offer...


----------



## spudmunkey

AxRookie said:


> I've never understood how fretless necks work?



Like a violin, cello, upright bass, etc. You have to have great muscle memory, and/or are very adept at vibrato for when you hit a note that's slightly "off". It doesn't sound as "crisp" as a metal fret. Kiesel also offers an option where they can inlay meterial into fret slots to act as fret markers, but they are perfectly smooth, so they aren't actually frets.

Here's a couple pics of the inlay lines:


----------



## AxRookie

spudmunkey said:


> Like a violin, cello, upright bass, etc. You have to have great muscle memory, and/or are very adept at vibrato for when you hit a note that's slightly "off". It doesn't sound as "crisp" as a metal fret. Kiesel also offers an option where they can inlay meterial into fret slots to act as fret markers, but they are perfectly smooth, so they aren't actually frets.


I would think the notes would sound rather dead/muted/lifeless sounding without breakaway for that end of the string to vibrate somewhat "freely"???

I guess the advantage offered by fretless would be notes that can't be found on a fretted guitar without string bending?


----------



## spudmunkey

AxRookie said:


> I would think the notes would sound rather dead/muted/lifeless sounding without breakaway for that end of the string to vibrate somewhat "freely"???



I wouldn't quite say that. less crisp, yes...but not lifeless. Imagine maybe...using a wood slide. There's a bit of the "mwah" sound that fretless bass players get. Vigier is one of the more frequent makers of fretless guitars, and they offer metal (don't know if it's solid or wrapped) fretboards. I think it gives a guitar a bit of a sitar sound.

One of the big things you can do it make any note or any chord you can finger sound like you're playing them with a slide.




AxRookie said:


> I guess the advantage offered by fretless would be notes that can't be found on a fretted guitar without string bending?



That's one use, but seemingly not as common as a main reason.


----------



## Avedas

The best fretless player:


And a cool demo by Guthrie showing some techniques:


----------



## AxRookie

Avedas said:


> The best fretless player:
> 
> 
> And a cool demo by Guthrie showing some techniques:



Wow, that is wild!

*Bumblefoot's the shiz!*


----------



## SnowfaLL

If you wanna hear fretless thats not shred, Issei Noro from Casiopea has been playing fretless since the 80s? Only on certain songs, but its so great.


----------



## AxRookie

SnowfaLL said:


> If you wanna hear fretless thats not shred, Issei Noro from Casiopea has been playing fretless since the 80s? Only on certain songs, but its so great.



Not really my thing but thank you for sharing that, you never know...


----------



## I play music

A budget fretless guitar would be cool just to try it out and see if it is cool before spending a lot on a fretless.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I play music said:


> A budget fretless guitar would be cool just to try it out and see if it is cool before spending a lot on a fretless.



Rondo used to get them in for as little as $300, but they went fast.


----------



## spudmunkey

A pliers and wood putty is even cheaper.


----------



## THEBOTTOMLINE

I paid off my vader yesterday and my ECD was last Monday. I Hope I get the shipping email soon


----------



## spudmunkey

THEBOTTOMLINE said:


> I paid off my vader yesterday and my ECD was last Monday. I Hope I get the shipping email soon



When you paid it off, was it in response to an email/call, or were you proactive and just paid it off because you were close to the estimated completion date?

Based on what I've noticed over on the FB group, most shipments are about 2-4 weeks behind.

A while back, there were a string of people who didn't provide their final payments, and it got to a point where they said they wouldn't install hardware or electronics until the guitar was paid for in full. So if your guitar was at that point, there's still electronics, hardware, final buffing, QC...I could see that being another 2 weeks-ish. Maybe more, maybe less.

In previous Q&A's, Jeff's mentioned that he doesn't like having more than 700-ish builds in progress at any one time. Last week or the week before, they said they had 1000-1100, if i remember right...that's 50% more than what they'd like. So that might mean that they are slowing some things down a little more so that they can batch some things out. Rather than doing 1-2 of a finish, they might wait until they can do 4-5 so there's less paint booth down-time with cleaning the tools, etc. No idea...that's aaaaall just conjecture. But the reality is that they are, a bit unexpetedly, busier than they have ever been in their history, it seems. Who knew that a pandemic closing down much of the country, national social unrest, and 30+% unemployment would mean record sales for custom guitars. With in-progress builds being 30-50% higher, something as simple as coming up short on specific guitar cases if there's longer leadtime on those, could hold up hundreds of shipment in just a couple of weeks. I feel like I remember him saying shipments of hardware form Hipshot slowed down, but I might be misremebering.


----------



## Karg

Right, it's hard to call it a recession when custom guitar orders are flooding Kiesel, and people are flocking to casinos. In stark contrast to how people were living in the '30s.


spudmunkey said:


> Who knew that a pandemic closing down much of the country, national social unrest, and 30+% unemployment would mean record sales for custom guitars.


----------



## THEBOTTOMLINE

spudmunkey said:


> When you paid it off, was it in response to an email/call, or were you proactive and just paid it off because you were close to the estimated completion date?
> 
> Based on what I've noticed over on the FB group, most shipments are about 2-4 weeks behind.
> 
> A while back, there were a string of people who didn't provide their final payments, and it got to a point where they said they wouldn't install hardware or electronics until the guitar was paid for in full. So if your guitar was at that point, there's still electronics, hardware, final buffing, QC...I could see that being another 2 weeks-ish. Maybe more, maybe less.
> 
> In previous Q&A's, Jeff's mentioned that he doesn't like having more than 700-ish builds in progress at any one time. Last week or the week before, they said they had 1000-1100, if i remember right...that's 50% more than what they'd like. So that might mean that they are slowing some things down a little more so that they can batch some things out. Rather than doing 1-2 of a finish, they might wait until they can do 4-5 so there's less paint booth down-time with cleaning the tools, etc. No idea...that's aaaaall just conjecture. But the reality is that they are, a bit unexpetedly, busier than they have ever been in their history, it seems. Who knew that a pandemic closing down much of the country, national social unrest, and 30+% unemployment would mean record sales for custom guitars. With in-progress builds being 30-50% higher, something as simple as coming up short on specific guitar cases if there's longer leadtime on those, could hold up hundreds of shipment in just a couple of weeks. I feel like I remember him saying shipments of hardware form Hipshot slowed down, but I might be misremebering.


I reached out to them and paid it off. I wasnt expecting it to be done when on my estimated completion date because I ordered when the pandemic first started shutting stuff down at the end of March. I figured that between their limited hours and the high number of builds , it would add at least a couple of weeks to the build time.


----------



## Samark

Killing it with these delicious Koa beasts


----------



## Drew

Karg said:


> Right, it's hard to call it a recession when custom guitar orders are flooding Kiesel, and people are flocking to casinos. In stark contrast to how people were living in the '30s.


This is a weird recession in a number of respects, but one of the biggest is since it wasn't one caused ny a demand collapse, the Federal stimulus effort has been focused on propping up consumers, from one-off stimulus checks to a $600 ad-on to weekly unemployment benefits, and since it's come at a time when consumer services spending has HAD to stop, we've seen an increase in a lot of discretionary spending on items that can be used at home or with your immediate families. A surge in guitar orders fits this trend pretty neatly. 

That said, you're comparing what's now been three months, to an entire decade. Let's not be so sure until 2023 or so that this isn't going to require some real belt tightening once some of those federal programs start ending.


----------



## Matt08642

mbardu said:


> They have done some pretty neat builds with one-piece flamed tops.
> 
> View attachment 81433
> View attachment 81434
> View attachment 81432
> 
> 
> 
> Still.....Spud's build is better



The flamed maple HSS strat here is speaking to me, god DAMN that's a nice looking instrument


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> They have done some pretty neat builds with one-piece flamed tops.
> 
> View attachment 81433
> View attachment 81434
> View attachment 81432
> 
> 
> 
> Still.....Spud's build is better



They do one-piece tops most often (when the customer doesnt necessarily specify it) I think on the two models that use the smallest tops: Zeus and HH (headless Holdsworth).


----------



## Spicypickles

Man I love those holdsworths.


----------



## Karg

Drew said:


> This is a weird recession in a number of respects, but one of the biggest is since it wasn't one caused ny a demand collapse, the Federal stimulus effort has been focused on propping up consumers, from one-off stimulus checks to a $600 ad-on to weekly unemployment benefits, and since it's come at a time when consumer services spending has HAD to stop, we've seen an increase in a lot of discretionary spending on items that can be used at home or with your immediate families. A surge in guitar orders fits this trend pretty neatly.
> 
> That said, you're comparing what's now been three months, to an entire decade. Let's not be so sure until 2023 or so that this isn't going to require some real belt tightening once some of those federal programs start ending.



That basically implies that our economy is mostly dependent on people with low-paying jobs spending a bunch of money. Most people who are receiving the unemployment checks now should have been 'tightening their belts' even before Coronavirus. Guitar buying does make sense when everyone is stuck inside, but CUSTOM Kiesel orders are through the roof. I feel like everyone would have went for $350 Epiphones instead because of the 'recession', but apparently loads of people can afford custom guitars right now.


----------



## mbardu

Karg said:


> That basically implies that our economy is mostly dependent on people with low-paying jobs spending a bunch of money. Most people who are receiving the unemployment checks now should have been 'tightening their belts' even before Coronavirus. Guitar buying does make sense when everyone is stuck inside, but CUSTOM Kiesel orders are through the roof. I feel like everyone would have went for $350 Epiphones instead because of the 'recession', but apparently loads of people can afford custom guitars right now.



Hey, everyone got a check for 1,200 bucks, that's way too much for a base Epi! So people get the 1,200$ Kiesel instead.
Makes so much sense 

TBH, it's not limited to Kiesel, even on this forum recently you see a bunch of 1k$+ Covid-NGD that I bet would not necessarily happen otherwise.


----------



## Karg

mbardu said:


> Hey, everyone got a check for 1,200 bucks, that's way too much for a base Epi! So people get the 1,200$ Kiesel instead.
> Makes so much sense
> 
> TBH, it's not limited to Kiesel, even on this forum recently you see a bunch of 1k$+ recent Covid-NGD.



Right, and until all of these custom orders stop, we are not in a 'recession' - at least not in the 1930s/starvation sense. We are actually far from that. And if people think that the recession 'wont really hit' until 2023 or something, then we are about to get our worlds rocked compared to the way people are living / buying stuff right now.


----------



## mbardu

Karg said:


> Right, and until all of these custom orders stop, we are not in a 'recession' - _*at least not in the 1930s/starvation sense*_. We are actually far from that. And if people think that the recession 'wont really hit' until 2023 or something, then we are about to get our worlds rocked compared to the way people are living / buying stuff right now.



You can make that difference, but we are already technically in a recession.
It might last or might not (after all, it looks like the Admin would have no moral opposition in running the money-presses forever Zimbabwe-style); it might bring economic harm to many or not....
Regardless though, there are always going to be people who spend on non-essentials before putting together an emergency fund; so I wouldn't take those consumption signals as indicators that things are going well or not.


----------



## bzhang9

Anyone have experience with polarity, beryllium, illusionist for 8 strings? Their demo is only for 6 strings, not much other info out there on these. I've tried the lithiums, too trebly for my taste.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Okay so I just got my first Kiesel in like 2-3 years. I will do a NGD eventually


----------



## Drew

Karg said:


> That basically implies that our economy is mostly dependent on people with low-paying jobs spending a bunch of money. Most people who are receiving the unemployment checks now should have been 'tightening their belts' even before Coronavirus. Guitar buying does make sense when everyone is stuck inside, but CUSTOM Kiesel orders are through the roof. I feel like everyone would have went for $350 Epiphones instead because of the 'recession', but apparently loads of people can afford custom guitars right now.


Rather, it's mostly dependent on people with low AND high paying jobs spending a bunch of money on _services_, which has absolutely ground to a halt in the last two months. People had been tightening their belts for a while - the savings rate had been increasing nicely the last several years - but when COVID hit and people suddenly had to cancel summer vacations (the old millennial "experiences over things" thing) and stopped getting haircuts, going out to eat or for drinks, or buying new clothes, that suddenly freed up a LOT of money to pay down debt or buy big-ticket items that could be enjoyed away from others. The shift from dining out to dining in put nearly $50 billion in aggregate back into consumers' pockets, according to some estimates I've seen. 

I don't know a single economist who disagrees with us being in a recession right now.


----------



## Albake21

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Okay so I just got my first Kiesel in like 2-3 years. I will do a NGD eventually


I'm interested to hear what you say about it. Kiesel is still a very 50/50 feeling for me. Was it a new or used one?


----------



## Avedas

I emailed about the fade finish I was looking at and they quoted me $300 for the custom 3 color fade on top of $250 for the deep clear flame for the flame maple top. Seems super reasonable to me.

I was disappointed to find out they discontinued the 5 piece white limba/walnut neck. I think I'll probably go with 5 piece maple/walnut to keep the same general look, and I'm going with tung oil for the neck so that should feel great. Still not 100% decided on that yet though.


----------



## diagrammatiks

I LOVE THIS


----------



## mbardu

Mini-SCB!
He says it's the smallest of the new generation of headless guitars they do.

I had been contemplating the single cut Zeus, in particular because of the 24 3/4 scale, but prefer the neck through and ergonomics of the Vader....so I guess that solves it 
This is guaranteed to be next if I can justify another build.

Would probably do a flamed maple top in orange candy and a solid walnut neck in tung oil.


----------



## spudmunkey




----------



## KnightBrolaire

ewwww it's a less ergonomic zeus


----------



## spudmunkey

i do really dig the upper bout pickup selector toggle switch. I assume that means it's a push-pull coil split pot (which I do prefer, as it gives another option or two over the 5-way).


----------



## mbardu

KnightBrolaire said:


> ewwww it's a less ergonomic zeus



That's debatable, especially if you don't like big bevels and prefer neck-throughs...


----------



## spudmunkey

KnightBrolaire said:


> ewwww it's a less ergonomic zeus



Eh, I never came around to the Zeus. Osiris, yes....but not the Zeus.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> i do really dig the upper bout pickup selector toggle switch. I assume that means it's a push-pull coil split pot (which I do prefer, as it gives another option or two over the 5-way).



It is, Jeff confirmed it.


----------



## Avedas

Someday Kiesel will release a headless model I like.

Today is not that day.


----------



## mbardu

Avedas said:


> Someday Kiesel will release a headless model I like.
> 
> Today is not that day.



I'd take a Vader _anyday _over a Strandy, but I can totally see why someone else would feel the other way around though!


----------



## MaxOfMetal

They really should just go for it and make a Kiesel-berg. Enough folks cross shopping headless come down to the two brands, might as well make the decision easier.

Kiesel doesn't seem to have a problem with basing models on existing designs, and at this point any bad press would be miniscule compared to those who would buy them. I think. 

In a better world Strandberg would just license the design to Kiesel.


----------



## Avedas

I, for one, would drop Strandberg in an instant if Kiesel made a clone. Lack of Endurneck isn't a deal breaker at all, and the Kiesel customizability makes up for that easily. Quality is probably better overall too.


----------



## diagrammatiks

weird that there no multi scales in this round of release models.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

diagrammatiks said:


> weird that there no multi scales in this round of release models.



Everything has a trem from the looks of it.


----------



## diagrammatiks

MaxOfMetal said:


> Everything has a trem from the looks of it.



yup. I still hate the junk in the trunk. But this is the first model that has artfully covered it. Unlike the plumber's butt of the Osiris and zeus. now if they would just respond to my emails.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

diagrammatiks said:


> yup. I still hate the junk in the trunk. But this is the first model that has artfully covered it. Unlike the plumber's butt of the Osiris and zeus. now if they would just respond to my emails.



Try talking about assess less.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> Try talking about assess less.



Yeah, instead talk about how the Vader looks both like hanging balls, and boobs (complete with nipple strap buttons).


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> Yeah, instead talk about how the Vader looks both like hanging balls, and boobs (complete with nipple strap buttons).
> View attachment 82173



Alright, tits I can see, but I think you need to see a urologist immediately.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> Alright, tits I can see, but I think you need to see a urologist immediately.



Ha, not me, I'm OK with the vader...but I see lots of people who comment saying it looks like balls to them. Probably the same people who say the (now retired) signature inlays looked like sperm, the horn on the Xcellerator was too phallic, etc. The heart sees what the heart wants, I guess.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> Everything has a trem from the looks of it.



No there were a few fixed bridges during the reveal.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Albake21 said:


> I'm interested to hear what you say about it. Kiesel is still a very 50/50 feeling for me. Was it a new or used one?


 
I got it new. I bought a friends build who needed to sell. It is really cool. I have gone over it with a fine tooth comb. It is a gold sparkle VM7 with roasted maple neck and ebony board. I definitely dig it. 

I have gone back and forth on my opinions of these instruments. Sometimes they are remarkable and other times they are "Oh okay". I guess it also makes it easier other people decicing the specs. Maybe if I order this new model, I will just have this thread do my specs. (Within reason)


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Hey guys. I would wait to order it until like August-September. Kiesel generally does a yearly run. Maybe they will do one of her


----------



## Avedas

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> I will just have this thread do my specs.



You're gonna get a purple to yellow burst with a bright green kiesel treated fretboard.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Avedas said:


> You're gonna get a purple to yellow burst with a bright green kiesel treated fretboard.



That is why I said within reason. Base options only because I am a thrifty boi


----------



## Albake21

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Hey guys. I would wait to order it until like August-September. Kiesel generally does a yearly run. Maybe they will do one of her


Jeff said on the live stream that they have so many orders that they might not be able to do a run. Even if they did one, he said it probably wouldn't be the new model. Maybe the neck through aries? He also said that prices for every model will go up starting July 1st.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Albake21 said:


> Jeff said on the live stream that they have so many orders that they might not be able to do a run. Even if they did one, he said it probably wouldn't be the new model. Maybe the neck through aries? He also said that prices for every model will go up starting July 1st.



But money. I would not be surprised if they did a Leia run.


----------



## mbardu

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> But money. I would not be surprised if they did a Leia run.



Runs have been more of a boon to buyers than to them in the past.
Right now they are rolling in orders, and increasing prices soon. Don't think money will be a problem.


----------



## Avedas

Albake21 said:


> He also said that prices for every model will go up starting July 1st.



Damn, really? I'm putting in my DC600 order tomorrow, but maybe I should finish speccing out the NAM7 I want to do and put that through as well.


----------



## spudmunkey




----------



## mbardu

Only thing I dislike is the strap button placement.


----------



## spudmunkey

I'm suprised it doesn't have two, like the Holdsworth and Vader. if it were in the middle, the width of the strap would make reaching the tuners awkward, i think.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> I'm suprised it doesn't have two, like the Holdsworth and Vader. if it were in the middle, the width of the strap would make reaching the tuners awkward, i think.



I don't _love _the double setup of the Vaders (prefer the guitars to be able to stay at an angled/upright position if that makes sense), but still better than that setup IMO.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> Only thing I dislike is the strap button placement.



Could you request them not to install the strap buttons? Like the least invasion OP50 ever?


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> Could you request them not to install the strap buttons? Like the least invasion OP50 ever?



I remember seeing one example of that. If deleting a control knob is a non-returnable option, I imagine "no strap buttons" could be, too. 

i wonder if it could go on the back face of the body?


----------



## mbardu

I wonder if the guitar being singlecut is just too top-heavy to put the strap button lower (on the other side of the bridge) lest it would want to "rotate" towards the ground?


----------



## diagrammatiks

mbardu said:


> I wonder if the guitar being singlecut is just too top-heavy to put the strap button lower (on the other side of the bridge) lest it would want to "rotate" towards the ground?


it's there so it's out of the way in classical position. if it was on the other you'd be in the strap. although why you're strapped in while playing sitting down classical..


----------



## mbardu

diagrammatiks said:


> it's there so it's out of the way in classical position. if it was on the other you'd be in the strap. although why you're strapped in while playing sitting down classical..



I can play in classical position on the Vader, 0 problem. 
Never even imagined it could be seen as an issue.


----------



## SnowfaLL

It was 2014, but I did have a different strap button location on a Vader as Opt 50 before.. might still be available.


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> I can play in classical position on the Vader, 0 problem.
> Never even imagined it could be seen as an issue.



"Classical position" means differnt things to different people. If you play with an elevated leg, it's less of an issue than if your feet are flat. It seems easy to bump the tuners. On the shorter-scale model, the tuners are pulled into the body a little more than the 27" scale models, so the tuners stick out further on the 27" scale. I could see a 25.5" scale version being less likely to come across this issue that some folks have. Also, if you've got the trem, any slight bump to the bridge with your leg would more the bridge.

I've heard a lot of people say, though, that they do touch the tuners with their thigh, but don't have discomfort of tuning issues. That's fine, but i don't like the idea of putting any sideways stress on the tuners. As solid as they may feel, it's still just a long screw, sticking way out like a torque-amplifying lever, attached to moving parts.








The Thanos bass and models like the Type X have exaggerated versions of these conditions. You can imagine that if this just slid down onto his right thigh, that the load-bearing element would be the bridge tuners. now, i say this as someone who's only played Vaders for a couple of minutes, and I play on my right thigh anyway, so I am just going off what i remember reading, and just perception based on photos.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> "Classical position" means differnt things to different people. If you play with an elevated leg, it's less of an issue than if your feet are flat. It seems easy to bump the tuners. On the shorter-scale model, the tuners are pulled into the body a little more than the 27" scale models, so the tuners stick out further on the 27" scale. I could see a 25.5" scale version being less likely to come across this issue that some folks have. Also, if you've got the trem, any slight bump to the bridge with your leg would more the bridge.
> 
> I've heard a lot of people say, though, that they do touch the tuners with their thigh, but don't have discomfort of tuning issues. That's fine, but i don't like the idea of putting any sideways stress on the tuners. As solid as they may feel, it's still just a long screw, sticking way out like a torque-amplifying lever, attached to moving parts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Thanos bass and models like the Type X have exaggerated versions of these conditions. You can imagine that if this just slid down onto his right thigh, that the load-bearing element would be the bridge tuners. now, i saw this as someone who's only played Vaders for a couple of minutes, and I play on my right thigh anyway, so I am just going off what i remember reading, and just perception based on photos.




The Thanos bass is absolutely the worst.
I would only really play it standing.

The Vaders with trem can be troublesome with one particular angle where you can push the trem a bit with your leg if you're not paying attention. The Vader with a fixed bridge though? Not really a problem. Even with the "worst" classical position, the large majority (if not 100%) of the weight of the guitar is still on the wood, not on the tuners.

Now that I think about it, even the type X is probably OK too.
Unless you really play with the neck _way _further away from you than the guitar body, it looks like the guitar should rest on the body wood behind the bridge, not on the tuners. I have not tried one in person though.


----------



## gunshow86de

So I was literally playing around in the Zeus builder yesterday thinking I would order one if only it was neck-through. I guess that's a sign I have to get it now?


----------



## mbardu

gunshow86de said:


> So I was literally playing around in the Zeus builder yesterday thinking I would order one if only it was neck-through. I guess that's a sign I have to get it now?



Dew it.
Preferably now if you want to save a few $$ before the price increase.


----------



## Avedas

Just put in my DC600 order. Here's hoping it arrives within 4 months


----------



## Jeff

Avedas said:


> I, for one, would drop Strandberg in an instant if Kiesel made a clone. Lack of Endurneck isn't a deal breaker at all, and the Kiesel customizability makes up for that easily. Quality is probably better overall too.



The quality should be better, since the Strandberg is just an expensive Cort.


----------



## Avedas

Jeff said:


> The quality should be better, since the Strandberg is just an expensive Cort.


I don't even consider any Strandbergs not made in Japan now. I got mine during the Korea days and while I'm certainly biased, it's definitely ahead of all the Indonesian Strandbergs I've played in the last couple years. I think Japanese Strandbergs are up there with the best, but the custom shop price tags are not worth it.


----------



## Hollowway

MaxOfMetal said:


> They really should just go for it and make a Kiesel-berg. Enough folks cross shopping headless come down to the two brands, might as well make the decision easier.
> 
> Kiesel doesn't seem to have a problem with basing models on existing designs, and at this point any bad press would be miniscule compared to those who would buy them. I think.
> 
> In a better world Strandberg would just license the design to Kiesel.



And, Ola hasn't done much to entice us to order a second strandy over the last couple of years. No new colors, features, etc. Meanwhile, everyone and their sister has a compact headless in a variety of colors and features.


----------



## mbardu

Jeff said:


> The quality should be better, since the Strandberg is just an expensive Cort.



I mean, Cort are pretty good for what they are...but yeah


----------



## Jeff

Avedas said:


> I don't even consider any Strandbergs not made in Japan now. I got mine during the Korea days and while I'm certainly biased, it's definitely ahead of all the Indonesian Strandbergs I've played in the last couple years. I think Japanese Strandbergs are up there with the best, but the custom shop price tags are not worth it.



I’ve only seen a handful of them, but each one was definitely not impressive. They should be ashamed of themselves for charging that much for a Cort guitar.


----------



## Hollowway

Jeff said:


> I’ve only seen a handful of them, but each one was definitely not impressive. They should be ashamed of themselves for charging that much for a Cort guitar.


Well, in their defense they're not "Cort guitars." There are very few factories that make production instruments, and they have different lines and QC for each brand/model.


----------



## Jeff

Hollowway said:


> Well, in their defense they're not "Cort guitars." There are very few factories that make production instruments, and they have different lines and QC for each brand/model.



They’re made by Cortek, yes? And regardless of their origin in Indonesia, they do not, IMO, exceed Cortek quality. They’re grossly overpriced.


----------



## spudmunkey

Leia va Zeus overlay gif, in case anyone was curious. The new Leia is indeed both narrower and shorter in length than the Zeus.

https://i.imgur.com/5vQREgX.gif


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Leia va Zeus overlay gif, in case anyone was curious. The new Leia is indeed both narrower and shorter in length than the Zeus.
> 
> https://i.imgur.com/5vQREgX.gif



Thanks for that. _Really _linking that design.
Not groundbreaking or anything, but just very nice.


----------



## kisielk

According to the Facebook page the Leia will also be available in 24.75" scale. That just greatly increased the chance of me ordering one.

Unfortunately for some people apparently 6 or 7 string only and no multiscale option.


----------



## kisielk

spudmunkey said:


> Leia va Zeus overlay gif, in case anyone was curious. The new Leia is indeed both narrower and shorter in length than the Zeus.
> 
> https://i.imgur.com/5vQREgX.gif


That looks way better proportioned than the Zeus as a 6 string. I like my Zeus 8 but was always hesitant of getting a 6 because I thought the neck looked pretty skinny compared to the oversized body.


----------



## lurè

Same, I would only order an 8 string Zeus; the 6 and 7 feels too big. The Laia looks a polished version of the Zeus for 6 string.


----------



## spudmunkey

It's definitely more like a single-cut Vader, than a neck-through Zeus.

https://i.imgur.com/xdyVgTV.gif


----------



## diagrammatiks

why no multiscale tho


----------



## spudmunkey

diagrammatiks said:


> why no multiscale tho



Well, with the tuners ending right at the edge of the body, it would mean one of two things. 1) they could extend the body, 2) the tuners would stick out behind the body. We know they are willing to due that based on the Thanos, but it would be the first time for their guitars. And finally, the body is pretty darn small. Multiscle means longer scale, and with the tiny body, that may not balance well, even as a headless.


----------



## iamaom

Jeff said:


> They should be ashamed of themselves for charging that much for a Cort guitar.


Have you seen Cort's prices lately (6 string basses nearly $1K USD)? Cort should be ashamed for charging that much for a Cort.


----------



## MSS

When’s the 4th sale begin? C’mon guys!


----------



## spudmunkey

MSS said:


> When’s the 4th sale begin? C’mon guys!



3 days after the July 1st price increase? usually, though, whatever sale they may have, will run at least a few days into next week.


----------



## spudmunkey

MSS said:


> When’s the 4th sale begin? C’mon guys!


----------



## Avedas

Oh man, I was actually planning to do a one piece walnut neck with a chambered body on an Aries 7...

Is this destiny?


----------



## mbardu

And if I'm not mistaken the price increase looks about 50$ across the board on most models.


----------



## SymmetricScars

mbardu said:


> And if I'm not mistaken the price increase looks about 50$ across the board on most models.


That's pretty reasonable, I was expecting more tbh.


----------



## mbardu

SymmetricScars said:


> That's pretty reasonable, I was expecting more tbh.



That's still more than nothing, but even added to the last ~100$ or so increase, it's still way below the price inflation on a lot of imports from other brands in the last ~2 years.


----------



## spudmunkey

I think there's a Q&A video today. I wonder if there's some new standard feature/process that they've added that can mentally off-set some of that. ha! Wishful thinking, perhaps...but that is what happened when they added stainless frets, luminlay side dots, and the upgrade to quartersawn for the 1-piece maple necks. They were all along for the ride with $50 increases. ALthough, as time goes on, a $50 becomes a slightly smaller and smaller percentage of the overall cost anyway, so there's less room to burry additional cost into that same $50.


----------



## Albake21

SymmetricScars said:


> That's pretty reasonable, I was expecting more tbh.


Considering an Aries was only $950 just three years ago, it's quite a bit.


----------



## mbardu

Albake21 said:


> Considering an Aries was only $950 just three years ago, it's quite a bit.



I didn't claim there had been no increase, but in proportion, it's still less than those increases you can see on things like Ibanez (Prestiges went from 1k$ to 2k$ _real _fast) or Schecter (Signatures > 1.5k$), or Jackson (USA models are now 4k$ guitars...) etc etc.

I used to be the first to complain about their price increases, and to prove my point a couple of months back, I tried to re-price a DC400 I ordered literally 10 years ago from Carvin based on today's options. Well, adjusted for inflation, the price (~1800 in today's dollars) had actually barely changed at all (while the standard options and quality has improved slightly). So at the end of the day I ended up disproving my own point


----------



## spudmunkey

Comparing to historical data is a bit of a crap shoot. For every example like April 2015 (their last catalog)where a DC600 was $899 with the hipshot bridge and with inflation, that'd be $975 as of May 2020 but it's $1299 today, there are also examples like yours. Claro walnut tops were $400 in 2015, and still are today. Stainless frets were $40, now it's free. The standard pickups are more expensive than they used to be., etc etc etc.


----------



## Avedas

I'm curious what raw tone satin is like on a plain maple top. I like the plain wood feel from tung oil but I also want to do a solid color (seafoam green), and I would want a cleaner look without the grain patterns from swamp ash, ideally as little figuring as possible. It was really hard to find pictures of this online.










I think these have maple tops? But obviously there's basically no figuring at all except where the swamp ash bodies come through, so maybe it's just better to go with a satin finish. I don't know if there would be much of a difference to the touch.

I'm thinking a neckthrough Aries 7 multiscale, RNC swamp ash body, 3 piece body to get the black outline between the seafoam top and natural body. Chambered and tung oil 1 piece walnut neck, maybe roasted flame maple fretboard. 3+4 headstock matching body.


----------



## spudmunkey

The raw tone finish is a less durable, ever-so-slightly "waxier" feeling finish. I would think of it like the satin finish on Taylor's higher-end acoustic necks vs the satin they use on like the 300, 200 or 1oo series. At least, that's how it was a few yers ago, I'm not sure if Taylor's changed that up.

I prefer the standard satin, if you're not going for the wood grain texture. Though, the raw tone is a thinner finish, so it has that going for it, if that's what you're shopping for in terms of "tone", hense, "raw _tone_".


----------



## Avedas

Yeah my Delos is a straight up satin finish. It's fine and all but it does sort of feel like a big hunk of plastic in a way. The solid satin matte finish on my Dingwall feels nicer to me - a bit more coarse which maybe gives the illusion of the finish being thinner.

Tough decision.


----------



## Samark

Kiesel experts, any idea what the name of this colour this is? Inb4 red


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

Looks like Raspberry Jam. But im not 100%. Someone else can give you a better idea.


----------



## spudmunkey

Seems to red to be raspberry jam..but almost too pink to be crimson, wine, or black cherry?


----------



## mbardu

I've had crimson red be just as bright and almost that pink under very bright blueish lights.

Edit: actually I was thinking Ruby red, not crimson red- my bad.
Here's a pic I still have- though the light was quite yellow so it looks less "pink" than it actually was.


----------



## spudmunkey

Samark said:


> View attachment 82843
> Kiesel experts, any idea what the name of this colour this is? Inb4 red



Got it. It's Select Fuscia Pink.

It belongs to this guy on IG:
https://instagram.com/chriskellyguitar?igshid=1hzn9z3ldnewt

Lots of in-progress pics, and a few once he received it. The color name was posted as a reply to one of the posts.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Got it. It's Select Fuscia Pink.
> 
> It belongs to this guy on IG:
> https://instagram.com/chriskellyguitar?igshid=1hzn9z3ldnewt
> 
> Lots of in-progress pics, and a few once he received it. The color name was posted as a reply to one of the posts.



Niiiiiiice. 
I kinda want it.


----------



## Jeff

spudmunkey said:


> Leia va Zeus overlay gif, in case anyone was curious. The new Leia is indeed both narrower and shorter in length than the Zeus.
> 
> https://i.imgur.com/5vQREgX.gif



It looks good. Not so damn “bulbous”


----------



## spudmunkey

Someone posted pics of this one on the FB group. I'm not super huge on the crackle finishes, but the white over transparent aqua (with I think the antique ash finish) on ash looks super cool, I think.


----------



## technomancer

I love crackles, but I can say I have never wanted a blue cheese guitar 

That pink looks fantastic though


----------



## mbardu

technomancer said:


> I love crackles, but I can say I have never wanted a blue cheese guitar



So _that's_ what it is. Thank you. Can't unsee now.


----------



## spudmunkey

I friggin hate blue cheese, so I prefer to think of it as dried up toothpaste.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Nah, it's our melting polar ice caps.


----------



## THEBOTTOMLINE

Have any of you had fedex not scan your shipment since it left the origin facility in California? My guitar shipped last friday but it hasnt been scanned since Friday night.


----------



## spudmunkey

THEBOTTOMLINE said:


> Have any of you had fedex not scan your shipment since it left the origin facility in California? My guitar shipped last friday but it hasnt been scanned since Friday night.



Yes. not from Kiesel specifically, but i've had the delivery be the first scan for a package. I've also had my new Kiesel guitar since the first week of June, and ithis is the still the current tracking status as of about 40 seconds ago:


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> Nah, it's our melting polar ice caps.



I'd have a perfectly nice white guitar, if it wasn't for that damned prehistoric squirrel/rat and his damned acorn!


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> Nah, it's our melting polar ice caps.



Now I'm sad..


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Yes. not from Kiesel specifically, but i've had the delivery be the first scan for a package. I've also had my new Kiesel guitar since the first week of June, and ithis is the still the current tracking status as of about 40 seconds ago:
> 
> View attachment 82966



Don't tell him you had to wait two weeks while the guitar was 5 miles from your house at the depot, you'll give him nightmares.


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> Don't tell him you had to wait two weeks while the guitar was 5 miles from your house at the depot, you'll give him nightmares.



Ooh, you mean this cluster fuck?



OK, I won't. That secret's safe with me. Shhh.... *mimes locking mouth and swallowing key*

edit:
*mimes coughing up key, unlocks lips*
And correction: it was 1.2 miles.
*mimes re-locking up lips, and re-swallows key*


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Someone posted pics of this one on the FB group. I'm not super huge on the crackle finishes, but the white over transparent aqua (with I think the antique ash finish) on ash looks super cool, I think.
> View attachment 82901



And it's already on Reverb.
Whoops I guess!


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> And it's already on Reverb.
> Whoops I guess!


----------



## Mathemagician

spudmunkey said:


> Someone posted pics of this one on the FB group. I'm not super huge on the crackle finishes, but the white over transparent aqua (with I think the antique ash finish) on ash looks super cool, I think.
> View attachment 82901



Love crackle finishes and this one is actually inspired. They got to check off a ton of color options like many buyers do but it came together really nicely. I do not however like dyed fretboards are ALL. But it’s not mine and the body finish is very cool. Congrats to reverb.

Edit: “It’s ok I guess, I just neither want to look at nor play it.” Lol.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> View attachment 83009


Man, I’d love the backstory on that. Someone buys the dude a $2000 guitar - a nice one built really well - and he decides it just doesn’t “feel good under (his) fingers” so he immediately lists it for sale. Idk who got him that gift, but that would be the last fucking thing I ever gave the ingrate, lol. He sounds like a pompous entitled ass, if this is the actual story.

(And who doesn’t “need a new guitar right now”? I ALWAYS need a new guitar. Especially if it’s a free one.)


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> Man, I’d love the backstory on that. Someone buys the dude a $2000 guitar - a nice one built really well - and he decides it just doesn’t “feel good under (his) fingers” so he immediately lists it for sale. Idk who got him that gift, but that would be the last fucking thing I ever gave the ingrate, lol. He sounds like a pompous entitled ass, if this is the actual story.
> 
> (And who doesn’t “need a new guitar right now”? I ALWAYS need a new guitar. Especially if it’s a free one.)



I'm always shocked whenever I hear stories about people who suprized them with a new guitar, or gifted them like their "old" Mayones or something. Or there's often posts on Reddit of people who want to buy someone else a custom guitar and are posting to ask for advice (thankfully, most of the advice is to NOT suprise them with a finished guitar, and instead suprise him with the money or something, and let the recipient get involved in the planning/design).


----------



## mbardu

Same for pretty much any hobby. Do not buy someone something in their hobby or field of expertise...you're very likely to get something that doesn't actually please them.

Anyway, the story sounds BS to me. But it's like online food recipes these days...everyone needs a make up a background story for everything.


----------



## Dayn

Man, I'd feel so awkward if someone bought me some guitar picks. I'm so particular about my wants that I don't even want someone to waste a few bucks on something I won't use, let alone a $2k+ guitar.

If it was something I specified, on the other hand...


----------



## Seabeast2000

Hollowway said:


> Man, I’d love the backstory on that. Someone buys the dude a $2000 guitar - a nice one built really well - and he decides it just doesn’t “feel good under (his) fingers” so he immediately lists it for sale. Idk who got him that gift, but that would be the last fucking thing I ever gave the ingrate, lol. He sounds like a pompous entitled ass, if this is the actual story.
> 
> (And who doesn’t “need a new guitar right now”? I ALWAYS need a new guitar. Especially if it’s a free one.)



This is like a Trust Fund novella.


----------



## Vyn

Hollowway said:


> Man, I’d love the backstory on that. Someone buys the dude a $2000 guitar - a nice one built really well - and he decides it just doesn’t “feel good under (his) fingers” so he immediately lists it for sale. Idk who got him that gift, but that would be the last fucking thing I ever gave the ingrate, lol. He sounds like a pompous entitled ass, if this is the actual story.
> 
> (And who doesn’t “need a new guitar right now”? I ALWAYS need a new guitar. Especially if it’s a free one.)



I still have my beat-up 3/4 sized Valencia nylon classical that was given to me on my 10th birthday. It's beat up, it's too small and doesn't hold tune well however it was a gift and I'm parting with that thing over my dead body.


----------



## bracky

It is an ugly guitar. I can see why he’s selling. May he just doesn’t want to admit he ordered those specs?


----------



## Avedas

Not a fan of the aesthetics on that, but WOW what an entitled dick. If someone gifted me a guitar I didn't really want I'd at least turn it into a meme guitar with some ridiculous tuning or pickups.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Sometimes you're in a spot where you need the money more than a guitar.


----------



## narad

MaxOfMetal said:


> Sometimes you're in a spot where you need the money more than a guitar.



Especially that one.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

narad said:


> Especially that one.





Do folks really hate that one that much? It's pretty tame compared to the usual meme worthy Kiesel.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> Do folks really hate that one that much? It's pretty tame compared to the usual meme worthy Kiesel.



I have to say, their recent Facebook feed has been pretty tolerable actually. Very few over-the-top-Kiesely builds all things considered.
This one...yeah the finish itself is polarizing. Don't like but at it least could understand someone getting it. The fretboard though really makes it too much IMHO.


----------



## mastapimp

MaxOfMetal said:


> Do folks really hate that one that much? It's pretty tame compared to the usual meme worthy Kiesel.



Yup. This will show up in the "too funny not to post" guitar thread along with the watermelon burst and single neck pickup kiesels. The fact that it's headless and has a pale blue fretboard treatment adds to the unintentionally hilarious value of it.


----------



## Mathemagician

Am I the only one whose first thought was “Kiesel sent him that unprompted to try to get free advertising/praise if he he begins playing it”?

To me that’s the most likely scenario. And for whatever reason maybe he wants nothing to do with the Kiesel/doesn’t want to feel obligated to anyone? Idk, just spitballing here.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

mbardu said:


> Same for pretty much any hobby. Do not buy someone something in their hobby or field of expertise...you're very likely to get something that doesn't actually please them.



My fiancé was going to surprise me with a custom guitar for my 30th and we both are so glad she didn’t. She came here looking for what a “dream spec” is and couldn’t believe(compared to her knowledge of custom violins, cellos etc) how indecisive we were and how we can’t agree on the simplest parts of an instrument’s construction or look 

If your partner, family, friend etc want to surprise you with a custom guitar have the luthier or company rep message you saying they want to build some in-stocks and what would be your dream specs. That way you can only really blame yourself if you didn’t get something you wanted.


----------



## xzacx

I wouldn't order it, but I actually like that crackle finish. The dyed board, on the other hand, is the much bigger offender to me.


----------



## Spicypickles

I dislike nearly all died boards. Keisel, PRS, whoever. They just seem so ostentatious


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Spicypickles said:


> I dislike nearly all died boards. Keisel, PRS, whoever. They just seem so ostentatious



Back when Brubaker and Conklin were doing it in the 90's it was pretty cool, so that's always what I think of.


----------



## Spicypickles

Bit before my time. I don’t recall those.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Spicypickles said:


> But before my time. I don’t recall those.



I get it. I don't entirely disagree with you, I think most are over the top and gaudy, especially PRS which is disappointing, I just can't help but be nostalgic.


----------



## Spicypickles

I agree with that. PRS absolutely have the capacity to make it nice, it just comes across as a bit much. I’m a plain maple fan though, so I’m pretty bland in my taste anyways


----------



## lurè

is the piezo system available for all the headless models? I'm quite sure is for the Vader and Zeus, but I haven't seen it on a type-X model.


----------



## mbardu

lurè said:


> is the piezo system available for all the headless models? I'm quite sure is for the Vader and Zeus, but I haven't seen it on a type-X model.



It is not available for all models no, and it's a bit fluid from what I can tell. Best I could say (besides calling them) is that the larger the guitar, the more likely you can get it. I doubt it would fit in a Leia or type X, whereas it is available on a Vader or Zeus.

Edit: to extend on that => if you look at the back of the guitars, it may not fit in the control cavities that has a small oblong rectangle cover whereas it does not on the larger more triangular one.


----------



## Mathemagician

Spicypickles said:


> I dislike nearly all died boards. Keisel, PRS, whoever. They just seem so ostentatious



I wouldn’t even use that word. To me ostentatious = it’s gaudy and unnecessary BUT I STILL WANT IT OMG.

I just think dyed boards are ugly. Idk, maybe there’s some that might look ok? But I’ve never seen them. 

Like maybe an ebony died to even out the black or something? I think that’s common.


----------



## mbardu

Mathemagician said:


> I wouldn’t even use that word. To me ostentatious = it’s gaudy and unnecessary BUT I STILL WANT IT OMG.
> 
> I just think dyed boards are ugly. Idk, maybe there’s some that might look ok? But I’ve never seen them.
> 
> Like maybe an ebony died to even out the black or something? I think that’s common.



I like the double black stain, especially if it matches with a trans black burst on the body of the guitar. That's different from dyed ebony, which they don't do and is not my cup of tea.

Had a colorful treated blue one on an aquaburst guitar to give it a try....and wouldn't do it again. It can look good on its own, but it's difficult to either match the body's finish, or the guitar just ends up too tacky.
Maybe on simple builds with a matte black or white finish and a colorful board?


----------



## Mathemagician

See yeah I can’t see any of those looking good to me. (To me being key). The not-matching the body OR even complimenting it is a big one. But just “let the aesthetics breathe”. 

Not every builder is Daemoness in terms of art/color, and that’s ok. (All that other on-goings aside).


----------



## Avedas

I've seen a few Kiesel treated boards that looked decent from a glance, but I don't think I'd ever do it myself. Would be very hard to get the colors to coordinate properly. Maybe trans white or black over flame maple is as close as it could get for me.

Also Jeff mentioned in a Q&A that the dyed finish isn't super durable. If the dye starts to wear away that's going to look hyper ugly in a hurry.


----------



## diagrammatiks

the one I had looked pretty nice.
just rootbeer brown. all over. so brown. 

matchy matchy


----------



## spudmunkey

lurè said:


> is the piezo system available for all the headless models? I'm quite sure is for the Vader and Zeus, but I haven't seen it on a type-X model.



Also, in addition to what mbardu said about how it won't fit in all models' control cavities, also note that the piezo output situation is different than on models with headstocks (and the typically large bodies that go with them).

On a non-headless guitar, you have two outputs. One output is a blended magnetic/piezo output. Then, if you plug a cable into the 2nd one, you can split off the piezo signal to a different signal chain or go direct, while your magnetic signal goes to your amp or pedalboard. Both jacks are mono. The "piezo" output is only active if you have something plugged into both outputs. Then you have the 3-way mini switch for switching between: mag / mag+piezo / piezo.

On a headless with a piezo, you just have a single output, mono and blended, and then the 3-way mini switch: mag / mag+piezo / piezo.


As for the colored fretboards, I'm not a fan. I've liked a few of them in photos, and seen 2 in person, but what I don't like is that the edges of the fretboard aren't colored.* I get why they don't: because the color can only penetrate so far, so as the corners wear down over time, you'll see a stripe of "natural" wood appear between the frets on the edges. This could be solved by using completely saturated woods like the tops from Californiawoods.com, or they would have to start offering binding, which is a whole different production process than they've been doing for decades, so that's a big hurdle for a niche need (just talking about the need to cover the un-dyed fretboard edges as a niche, not saying neck binding itself is niche).

*I've seen one or two examples where the edges were dyed, but those were at least a few years ago, and I've heard Jeff say they don't do that anymore. not sure how flexible they would be on something like a "kiesel special edition" build, etc.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> *I've seen one or two examples where the edges were dyed, but those were at least a few years ago, and I've heard Jeff say they don't do that anymore. not sure how flexible they would be on something like a "kiesel special edition" build, etc.



I have red dyed edges done on my midi DC600:








I avoided a mismatch in color by not even _trying _to match the top. The top is sanded back denim-style, while the edge of the guitar and fretboard are very white maple, so they do match with each other with the red stain. In retrospect, the only thing I would have done differently would have been to have the guitar body finished with a _translucent _black burst, not an opaque one. Would have been a better match for the top of the fretboard, since even their "double black" is still not quite opaque. At least they're both monochrome though, so it isn't bad.

PS: I've asked Jeff 2 or 3 times now if he'd do it ever again, and so far he's said a pretty firm and definitive no. So this guitar and a CS6 completed at about the same time are the only guitars in existence with that technique that I know of. Both with the binding done in the same red btw.


----------



## mbardu

On a separate note, I thought the below was a fake, being so tacky:







But apparently it's real, and public on multiple social media accounts of the brand.

As a result, a quick PSA- I'd highly encourage anyone who's looking to buy a Kiesel to do it now. 
Unlike Gibson's, the Mouse's lawyers _do not kid around with their IP_, so better get that Vader or Leia built before Kiesel is sued into the ground now.


----------



## diagrammatiks

oh ya they are super fucked.


----------



## Hollowway

In b4: “Hey guys, Jeff Kiesel, Kiesel Guitars. We made a new model as a funny homage to Star Wars, and their lawyers sent us a cease and desist. So if you want one of these super rad Leia models, get your order in now! These will be only available for a short time, so call my guys, and get your order in before this model is discontinued!”


----------



## mbardu

Hollowway said:


> In b4: “Hey guys, Jeff Kiesel, Kiesel Guitars. We made a new model as a funny homage to Star Wars, and their lawyers sent us a cease and desist. So if you want one of these super rad Leia models, get your order in now! These will be only available for a short time, so call my guys, and get your order in before this model is discontinued!”



lol at that "short time"
I was not planning to order anything (read...a Leia) before, at least black Friday but they're going to force my hand 
The Leia will kind of become a rare instrument once 1-(optimistic option) the model is discontinued before even making it to the website or 2-(other option) Kiesel has to close down due to legal troubles with a company 5,000 times their size. Or I guess the model _could _double in price to account for punitive damages and future licensing fees.

No matter, the person who designed this did a great job killing any pretense of plausible deniability in their naming choices though. Really great job.


----------



## Avedas

I saw that on Insta or wherever yesterday. What a mess. I definitely didn't make the Solo -> Star Wars connection though lol


----------



## bracky

Flirting with Disney intellectual property does seem like a poorly thought out plan.


----------



## iamaom

mbardu said:


> The Leia will kind of become a rare instrument once 1-(optimistic option) the model is discontinued before even making it to the website


Can someone explain how this model is any different than the Zeus?


----------



## Albake21

iamaom said:


> Can someone explain how this model is any different than the Zeus?


It's pretty different to be honest. It's neck through, no bevel, basically a singlecut version of the Vader. Just like the Zeus is the single cut version of the Osiris.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Hollowway said:


> In b4: “Hey guys, Jeff Kiesel, Kiesel Guitars. We made a new model as a funny homage to Star Wars, and their lawyers sent us a cease and desist. So if you want one of these super rad Leia models, get your order in now! These will be only available for a short time, so call my guys, and get your order in before this model is discontinued!”


Hey guys, Jeff Disney, Disney Guitars here. As the sub assistant manager of third shift DreamGuitar department, come on down to the break room at 3am for a team building company appreciation session.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

The Leisa still is not on their online builder


----------



## diagrammatiks

mbardu said:


> lol at that "short time"
> I was not planning to order anything (read...a Leia) before, at least black Friday but they're going to force my hand
> The Leia will kind of become a rare instrument once 1-(optimistic option) the model is discontinued before even making it to the website or 2-(other option) Kiesel has to close down due to legal troubles with a company 5,000 times their size. Or I guess the model _could _double in price to account for punitive damages and future licensing fees.
> 
> No matter, the person who designed this did a great job killing any pretense of plausible deniability in their naming choices though. Really great job.



lol you think Disney is only 5000 times the size of kiesel.


----------



## mbardu

diagrammatiks said:


> lol you think Disney is only 5000 times the size of kiesel.



We know Kiesel makes about 4000 guitars, now maybe 5000 a years, probably close to 2k average price, with a decent margin.
Profit over 3 Million $ per year wouldn't surprise me- not even being aggressive there.
The company is growing, but also pretty stable (at least before they posted the above picture ) so you could probably give them some pretty decent multiples too.
Now multiply _that _by 5000- if it were a public company 5000 times its size, it could be one between 30 and 100B without being too aggressive (if you look at how busy they are, they seem to be overperforming for a consumer discretionary company). Disney is about 200B so it's not that far off, and you _know _the public valuations are pretty divorced for reality (to the upside) at the moment.

Or think in terms of employees. Disney has about 200k employees. Divide that by 5000 and you have 40, and I doubt Kiesel has_ way_ fewer than 40 employees- certainly not 1/10th of that. So again, not that far off.

Now, you know this is half an approximation (not an "_exactly 13,420.69 times_" bigger whatever that would even mean), half for comedic effect, but actually 5000 is not even that far. Unless of course you have some metrics that I don't and want to share. And 5000 is already a pretty big number, certainly big enough to afford them the legal powers we all know about.


----------



## diagrammatiks

mbardu said:


> We know Kiesel makes about 4000 guitars, now maybe 5000 a years, probably close to 2k average price, with a decent margin.
> Profit over 3 Million $ per year wouldn't surprise me- not even being aggressive there.
> The company is growing, but also pretty stable (at least before they posted the above picture ) so you could probably give them some pretty decent multiples too.
> Now multiply _that _by 5000- if it were a public company 5000 times its size, it could be one between 30 and 100B without being too aggressive. Disney is about 200B so it's not that far off, and you _know _the public valuations are pretty divorced for reality (to the upside) at the moment.
> 
> Or think in terms of employees. Disney has about 200k employees. Divide that by 5000 and you have 40, and I doubt Kiesel has_ way_ fewer than 40 employees- certainly not 1/10th of that. So again, not that far off.
> 
> Come on, you know this half an approximation (not an "_exactly 13,420.69 times_" bigger whatever that would even mean), half for comedic effect, but actually 5000 is not even that far. Unless of course you have some metrics that I don't and want to share. And 5000 is already a pretty big number, certainly big enough to afford them the legal powers we all know about.



gawd you always take posting so seriously.


----------



## mbardu

diagrammatiks said:


> gawd you always take posting so seriously.



lmao, pretty much the answer I expected 
After the "haha dude U so dumb you think Disney is smol" now slowly backtracking with a "but no Mr gentleman, 'tis was but a joke". Okie then!

As for me, if you can't see that half the things I'm posting _are indeed_ jokes, you must really be fixating on looking for those small "gotchas".


----------



## diagrammatiks

mbardu said:


> lmao, pretty much the answer I expected
> After the "haha dude U so dumb you think Disney is smol" now slowly backtracking with a "but no Mr gentleman, 'tis was but a joke". Okie then!
> 
> As for me, if you can't see that half the things I'm posting _are indeed_ jokes, you must really be fixating on looking for those small "gotchas".



no I mean you post like a lot of words. you are really serious about posting a lot of words.


----------



## mbardu

diagrammatiks said:


> no I mean you post like a lot of words. you are really serious about posting a lot of words.



k.


----------



## spudmunkey

I'm the same way. If I was at all curious about something, I'll look it up, learn, and do some math for fun.


----------



## lurè

May the bevel be with you


----------



## lurè

Kiesel Wars I: The burled menace
Kiesel Wars II: Attack of the bevels
Kiesel Wars III: Revenge of the bevels
Kiesel Wars IV: A new bevel
Kiesel Wars V: The bevel strikes back
Kiesel Wars VI: Return of the bevel
Kiesel Wars VII: The bevel awakens
Kiesel Wars VIII: The last bevel
Kiesel Wars IX: The rise of the Skyburled


----------



## Seabeast2000

In b4 Rebevel Forces


----------



## Seabeast2000

Fanned Solo: a Kiesel Wars Story


----------



## spudmunkey

From 2017, i *think*, a "saber" KTB finish promo:


----------



## Mathemagician

spudmunkey said:


> From 2017, i *think*, a "saber" KTB finish promo:
> View attachment 83510



All. Of. Those. Are. So. Ugly. 

Bravo to them for making more money selling something so ugly that likely doesn’t add too much effort to their process. 

It also means more direct new purchases as no one would want to buy one of those dyed monstrosities on the secondary market.


----------



## spudmunkey

iamaom said:


> Can someone explain how this model is any different than the Zeus?



Leia is quite a bit narrower and shorter in overal length.

Zeus:
Bolt on
Forearm bevel
6, 7 and 8 string, with some multiscale options
Kiesel Polarity, Fishman Fluence and Piezo electronics are all available.
Chambered body option available.
24.75" available on the 6-string, HH fixed bridge only.

Leia:
Neck-through
"bent wood/drop top" style forearm contour
6 and 7 only, no multiscale.
Also no active pickup or piezo.
Chambering not available.
24.75" is also avialable, but I don't know if it comes with the same restrictions as the Zeus.

Overlay comparison: (Leia is quote a bit narrower and shorter in overal length)








Here it is compared to a Vader, which is also neck-through, and has a similar forearm contour:


----------



## spudmunkey

They announced a sort of decent sale today, in case anyone was waiting for one. It's a "labor day" sale, so I'd expect it to run through next week, but there's no official announced end date.

The theme is "for Labor day, we're offering some free upgrades that normally require much more labor".

Three free "fade" paint job options: Teal to blue, Pink to purple, and Yellow to red. Note that these are done by their spray painter, and aren't going to be quite the same as the hand-applied dye finishes that Jeff does...but they still seem pretty good for the most part.

Free "Antique Ash Treatment" for swamp ash bodies.

Free deep or natural "binding effect"

Free "Select" finishes for ash bodies (Basically the finishes that are standard on the Johnny Hiland model, and a "Select Orange")

Free chambered body (if you've already selected a top).

Free 3-piece neck upgrade optionss: 2-piece maple, maple/walnut or walnut/maple

Free "drop shadow" logo upgrade.

And on their K series which comes standard with a "Master grade" flamed maple, spalted maple, burled walnut, ebony, royal ebony, flamed redwood, or Buckeye burl, you can also select some other Master Grade top woods that are normally $400-500 upgrades: Poplar burl, burled maple, quilted maple, flamed koa. I'm not sure if it includes the non-master grade, but still additional cost tops: cocobolo, or burled redwood.


----------



## Hollowway

@spudmunkey those paint fades - are they spray lacquers over figured wood, or opaque paint? That pink to purple sounds cool, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen it.

Edit: Nvm! I just saw Jeff’s post. The base price of the instruments I’m interested in are probably too high to pull the trigger on this sale, but the pink to purple fade is awesome!


----------



## mbardu

I have not seen the Red > Yellow in person so I'm hesitant...

That sale would have been perfect too for a short-scale Leia...but I just got my Capa...


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> I have not seen the Red > Yellow in person so I'm hesitant...
> 
> That sale would have been perfect too for a short-scale Leia...but I just got my Capa...



A better photo of it:


----------



## Avedas

This sale is pretty good. I really like the pink/purple fade. I already have my own custom fade on order though


----------



## Millul

lurè said:


> Kiesel Wars I: The burled menace
> Kiesel Wars II: Attack of the bevels
> Kiesel Wars III: Revenge of the bevels
> Kiesel Wars IV: A new bevel
> Kiesel Wars V: The bevel strikes back
> Kiesel Wars VI: Return of the bevel
> Kiesel Wars VII: The bevel awakens
> Kiesel Wars VIII: The last bevel
> Kiesel Wars IX: The rise of the Skyburled




I know I'm late to the party, but, given the history of the brand, I think "Option 50 strikes back" would be a pretty fitting title...!


----------



## rabidwolverine214

I know kiesel has some hate and rightfully so. I took a chance and custom ordered an HD6. I could not be happier, easy ordering experience and was finished fast at 8 weeks. 1 piece swamp ash with black raw tone finish, 3 piece walnut/blood wood neck, with a royal ebony fretboard, and lithium pickups. Sounds incredible and I can not find a flaw.


----------



## spudmunkey

rabidwolverine214 said:


> I can not find a flaw.



in b4 "dur hur, they forgot to attach a headstock"

Looks awesome!


----------



## Jeff

rabidwolverine214 said:


> I know kiesel has some hate and rightfully so. I took a chance and custom ordered an HD6. I could not be happier, easy ordering experience and was finished fast at 8 weeks. 1 piece swamp ash with black raw tone finish, 3 piece walnut/blood wood neck, with a royal ebony fretboard, and lithium pickups. Sounds incredible and I can not find a flaw.
> View attachment 84900
> View attachment 84901



That looks great


----------



## Avedas

That's my DC600 they posted today. Honestly I expected a bit more denim in the fade but can't complain too much, it looks pretty damn great.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

Avedas said:


> That's my DC600 they posted today. Honestly I expected a bit more denim in the fade but can't complain too much, it looks pretty damn great.


That’s looking good. Is it from the last sale they did with the fades being a reduced cost? Post a NGD. The paint job might match your expectations better once you see it in person.


----------



## Albake21

Avedas said:


> That's my DC600 they posted today. Honestly I expected a bit more denim in the fade but can't complain too much, it looks pretty damn great.


Wow! Now that's one of the nicest looking Kiesels I've seen.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

Albake21 said:


> Wow! Now that's one of the nicest looking Kiesels I've seen.


That’s because it doesn’t look like a Kiesel.


----------



## Avedas

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> That’s looking good. Is it from the last sale they did with the fades being a reduced cost? Post a NGD. The paint job might match your expectations better once you see it in person.


Nah it was a custom one I requested a while back. And yeah, fades really react to lighting so I'm stoked to see more.


----------



## mbardu

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> That’s because it doesn’t look like a Kiesel.



I could see that argument for something like a CT- but this type of DC shape is something they have done for _literally _decades and decades and decades.


----------



## dmlinger

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> That’s because it doesn’t look like a Kiesel.


 
*crowd boos*

Let's not shit on people's pending NGDs because you dislike the looks of Kiesels. There's a complete million page thread dedicated to shitting on Kiesel.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

dmlinger said:


> *crowd boos*
> 
> Let's not shit on people's pending NGDs because you dislike the looks of Kiesels. There's a complete million page thread dedicated to shitting on Kiesel.


You’re misunderstanding me. I was saying it doesn’t look like a Kiesel in terms of it not being over the top and gaudy. Remember?


----------



## mbardu

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> You’re misunderstanding me. I was saying it doesn’t look like a Kiesel in terms of it not being over the top and gaudy. Remember?



Aaaah OK.

So I guess all ESPs are like this:



And all PRS are like this?



But it's OK, they're not gaudy?

Got it. Or is it that other brands can do whatever, but we like to we cherry pick _just _when it's about randomly saying something against Kiesel while the poster above is pretty happy with his nice guitar?


----------



## dmlinger

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> You’re misunderstanding me. I was saying it doesn’t look like a Kiesel in terms of it not being over the top and gaudy. Remember?



Touche' and my apologies! I understand the context now


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

mbardu said:


> Aaaah OK.
> 
> So I guess all ESPs are like this:
> View attachment 85042
> 
> 
> And all PRS are like this?
> View attachment 85043
> 
> 
> But it's OK, they're not gaudy?
> 
> Got it. Or is it that other brands can do whatever, but we like to we cherry pick _just _when it's about randomly saying something against Kiesel while the poster above is pretty happy with his nice guitar?


Wow dude. Let it go. You’d think you gave birth to that particular guitar. I got better things to do than debate this with you.


----------



## lurè

mbardu said:


> Aaaah OK.
> 
> So I guess all ESPs are like this:
> View attachment 85042
> 
> 
> And all PRS are like this?
> View attachment 85043
> 
> 
> But it's OK, they're not gaudy?
> 
> Got it. Or is it that other brands can do whatever, but we like to we cherry pick _just _when it's about randomly saying something against Kiesel while the poster above is pretty happy with his nice guitar?



I wish they were


----------



## xzacx

Avedas said:


> That's my DC600 they posted today. Honestly I expected a bit more denim in the fade but can't complain too much, it looks pretty damn great.



I don't know what you had in mind exactly, but I think the finish looks really cool. The fade pattern—how the tips of the horns have the most contrast—reminds me of how Tyler does Jimi Bursts.


----------



## mbardu

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> Wow dude. Let it go. You’d think you gave birth to that particular guitar. I got better things to do than debate this with you.



lmao, says the guy who specifically went out of his way to jump in, criticize with no reason while the dude was just sharing his new upcoming guitar, then refused to back down, spent time to search for a particularly funky Kiesel to post, and then doesn't have time anymore when his points make no sense. K then bye


----------



## mbardu

xzacx said:


> I don't know what you had in mind exactly, but I think the finish looks really cool. The fade pattern—how the tips of the horns have the most —reminds me of how Tyler does Jimi Bursts.



Agreed 100%- at least that's where everyone agrees actually 
It's just one angle but that looks like a top notch pretty subtle fade.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Come on guys. That's a very good looking Ibanez. let's not fight.


----------



## mbardu

diagrammatiks said:


> Come on guys. That's a very good looking Ibanez. let's not fight.



An Ibanez with actual woods, nice non plain finish that will actually last, a neck through plus great stainless steel fretwork; now that's definitely my favorite type of Ibanez


----------



## spudmunkey

Avedas said:


> That's my DC600 they posted today. Honestly I expected a bit more denim in the fade but can't complain too much, it looks pretty damn great.



That one's yours? That's super cool. Love the contrast with the blue and the black limba. Of the "pics of the day", yours was the one i downloaded to post, and almost posted it here anyway.


----------



## Avedas

xzacx said:


> I don't know what you had in mind exactly, but I think the finish looks really cool. The fade pattern—how the tips of the horns have the most contrast—reminds me of how Tyler does Jimi Bursts.


All I asked for was a deep blue to denim, and I think they definitely nailed it! No jarring color transition and just the right amount of figuring on the top for me.

Just got a shipping notification this morning, so I should have it by next week.


----------



## mbardu

Avedas said:


> All I asked for was a deep blue to denim, and I think they definitely nailed it! No jarring color transition and just the right amount of figuring on the top for me.
> 
> Just got a shipping notification this morning, so I should have it by next week.



If you asked for "Deep blue to denim" I kinda see what you meant by "not very denim".
It's not a full "blue denim" like on a full on flat finish.




But you know what, in your case, I think it looks way better for it.
Denim looks great on its own, but the fade you're getting is looks very delicate.
Like you said, the opposite of jarring- which is often what makes or breaks a fade.

Good luck for the NGD wait now 
Edit: What pickups did you go with btw?


----------



## Avedas

mbardu said:


> If you asked for "Deep blue to denim" I kinda see what you meant by "not very denim".
> It's not a full "blue denim" like on a full on flat finish.
> 
> View attachment 85101
> 
> 
> But you know what, in your case, I think it looks way better for it.
> Denim looks great on its own, but the fade you're getting is looks very delicate.
> Like you said, the opposite of jarring- which is often what makes or breaks a fade.
> 
> Good luck for the NGD wait now
> Edit: What pickups did you go with btw?


I got Lithium bridge and Beryllium neck. I've never had Kiesel humbuckers before so I'll see how they are, but I had a Silo set earmarked for this guitar.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

I'm sorry, but that Skull N Bones Random Star is awesome.


----------



## Hollowway

Avedas said:


> That's my DC600 they posted today. Honestly I expected a bit more denim in the fade but can't complain too much, it looks pretty damn great.


Wow, nice specs, dude! I will agree that this is definitely not a Kiesel designed guitar. The tasteful and understated choices here make it look really unique. I’d like to see more people do builds like this. And I see what you mean about the denim as well, but I much prefer this to the typical denim look, so I think you lucked out.


----------



## Avedas

The guitar arrived today and it is truly perfect! Can't find a single flaw with it. The finish is insane in various lighting, the top flame is vibrant and deep, and the black limba figuring is pretty nuts. I love the thinner neck profile with a tung oil finish. I like the Beryllium pickup all around. The Lithium is great on leads but a bit thin on rhythm and cleans.

Anyway it's going straight back in the box since I'm moving in a few days, but I'll take some proper pics afterward.


----------



## mbardu

Geeebus Kristjz that's nice


----------



## Strtsmthng

Wow that is one gorgeous fiddle, congrats!!


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

Avedas said:


> The guitar arrived today and it is truly perfect! Can't find a single flaw with it. The finish is insane in various lighting, the top flame is vibrant and deep, and the black limba figuring is pretty nuts. I love the thinner neck profile with a tung oil finish. I like the Beryllium pickup all around. The Lithium is great on leads but a bit thin on rhythm and cleans.
> 
> Anyway it's going straight back in the box since I'm moving in a few days, but I'll take some proper pics afterward.


Looks really nice. Good choices on the specs!


----------



## Hollowway

Dayum! That’s literally the best finish I’ve seen on a kiesel!


----------



## kisielk

The headstock looks incredible. Like looking from a beach into the ocean coming in.


----------



## mbardu

kisielk said:


> The headstock looks incredible. Like looking from a beach into the ocean coming in.



Spot on!


----------



## Strtsmthng

More pics or a NGD please


----------



## Avedas

Still getting set up at my new place. Hopefully I'll have some time to take pics this weekend.

In the meantime, they posted my Aries on the FB page:





I got a shipping notification this morning so it should be here next week!


----------



## spudmunkey

Nice! If the neck-through Aries were available when I ordered mine, I would have gotten that instead.


----------



## fractalsauce

Hey what's up guys I just got my Kiesel Vader VM7 the other day and thought maybe ya'll would like to see it 

Black Limba Neck and Body with 2 Maple Stripes.
Deep Dragonburst Quilted Maple Top
Roasted Flamed Maple Fretboard
Black Hardware with Abalone Inlays
Abalone Dot Inlays with K Logo on 12th Fret
Thorium Bridge and Lithium Neck Pickups































This thing is hands down the best guitar I've ever played in my life! It's my first 7-string and first multiscale and I am absolutely in love with it. That's my old Carvin DC200 that my dad got me used for my 16th birthday. It's the only other electric guitar I have and I've been playing it for 16 years and have been wanting/needing a new guitar for a while now. So glad to finally have my dream guitar and have been playing a lot more ever since I got it. I'm just now realizing that this thread is under the standard guitars sub-forum and not a seven string thread but maybe having that shot of the 6-string Carvin at the end there makes it ok


----------



## Jeff

fractalsauce said:


> Hey what's up guys I just got my Kiesel Vader VM7 the other day and thought maybe ya'll would like to see it
> 
> Black Limba Neck and Body with 2 Maple Stripes.
> Deep Dragonburst Quilted Maple Top
> Roasted Flamed Maple Fretboard
> Black Hardware with Abalone Inlays
> Abalone Dot Inlays with K Logo on 12th Fret
> Thorium Bridge and Lithium Neck Pickups
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This thing is hands down the best guitar I've ever played in my life! It's my first 7-string and first multiscale and I am absolutely in love with it. That's my old Carvin DC200 that my dad got me used for my 16th birthday. It's the only other electric guitar I have and I've been playing it for 16 years and have been wanting/needing a new guitar for a while now. So glad to finally have my dream guitar and have been playing a lot more ever since I got it. I'm just now realizing that this thread is under the standard guitars sub-forum and not a seven string thread but maybe having that shot of the 6-string Carvin at the end there makes it ok



Good lookin fiddle


----------



## btbg

Jeff said:


> Good lookin fiddle



With a name like fractalsauce I almost thought it was Chris.


----------



## fractalsauce

btbg said:


> With a name like fractalsauce I almost thought it was Chris.


----------



## Jeff

btbg said:


> With a name like fractalsauce I almost thought it was Chris.



Chris who?


----------



## maliciousteve

Just bought myself a DC747. Great guitar and so happy to have a Carvin again. It's incredibly comfortable


----------



## Albake21

maliciousteve said:


> Just bought myself a DC747. Great guitar and so happy to have a Carvin again. It's incredibly comfortable


Beautiful top and color! I see so many really nice Carvin DC7s put up for sale for such good prices.


----------



## spudmunkey

Oof...they aren't wrong. I wonder if this is hinting at a new (fuckin' finally) website...


----------



## Seabeast2000

Cryptic. I don't get the reference.


----------



## spudmunkey

Seabeast2000 said:


> Cryptic. I don't get the reference.



Their website is terribly-out dated, incomplete, and it's actually possible to pay too much unless you're a spec-expert. They are saying that it's a weakness.


----------



## lurè

Hopefully a new online builder too.

The one they have now covers like 30% of what they're offering.


----------



## spudmunkey

Even without a virtual builder, and even without tinkering with the actual order-placement builder, there's still stupid little things they could do to make it so much more user-friendly as a resource, with very little investment.

On the "Guitars" and "Bass" pages, just have categories. Put a simple menu at the top, with different categories, and their options:

6 Strings
7 Strings
8 Strings
12 Strings

Models with headstocks
Headless models

Bolt-On neck construction
Neck-Through neck construction
Set Neck neck construction
Set-Through neck construction

24.75" scale length
25" scale length
25.5" scale length
26.5" scale length
27" scale length
Multiscale


etc etc.

Right now, you've just got one monolithic page with every model listed, with no clear organization.

Then, maybe once per month, they could roll-out a single page that just showcases and explains a specific option category. Like start with one page with all of their headstock shape options, and their names/codes. Then a month later, roll out a singe page with all of their headstock logo colors/materials. Then a page talking about the fretboard radius options, etc etc. Every so often, you'll have one that requires a little bit more of a deeper dive, like neck finishes. Then one that goes over the standard "back and sides" finish options, etc etc.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

maliciousteve said:


> Just bought myself a DC747. Great guitar and so happy to have a Carvin again. It's incredibly comfortable



Nice!

Those old DCs are probably my favorite 7s from them. They definitely bring back some good memories.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> Even without a virtual builder, and even without tinkering with the actual order-placement builder, there's still stupid little things they could do to make it so much more user-friendly as a resource, with very little investment.
> 
> On the "Guitars" and "Bass" pages, just have categories. Put a simple menu at the top, with different categories, and their options:
> 
> 6 Strings
> 7 Strings
> 8 Strings
> 12 Strings
> 
> Models with headstocks
> Headless models
> 
> Bolt-On neck construction
> Neck-Through neck construction
> Set Neck neck construction
> Set-Through neck construction
> 
> 24.75" scale length
> 25" scale length
> 25.5" scale length
> 26.5" scale length
> 27" scale length
> Multiscale
> 
> 
> etc etc.
> 
> Right now, you've just got one monolithic page with every model listed, with no clear organization.
> 
> Then, maybe once per month, they could roll-out a single page that just showcases and explains a specific option category. Like start with one page with all of their headstock shape options, and their names/codes. Then a month later, roll out a singe page with all of their headstock logo colors/materials. Then a page talking about the fretboard radius options, etc etc. Every so often, you'll have one that requires a little bit more of a deeper dive, like neck finishes. Then one that goes over the standard "back and sides" finish options, etc etc.



And some stuff is just wrong and contradictory. Like how on the main page it lists "Jason Becker Tribute 6 & 7 string guitars." But there is no such thing as a 7 string Becker guitar, so you can't actually build one.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> Nice!
> 
> Those old DCs are probably my favorite 7s from them. They definitely bring back some good memories.



Aaaahhhhh DC7x7 memories...
Lost most of my pictures but among the few that remain:


----------



## Hollowway

I’m distracted-boyfriending the 7x7s with Floyds these days. I traded away my 727 like 10 years ago, but given that Kiesel doesn’t do Floyds anymore, now I kind of want another one.


----------



## Strtsmthng

mbardu said:


> Aaaahhhhh DC7x7 memories...
> Lost most of my pictures but among the few that remain:
> 
> View attachment 85954
> View attachment 85955
> View attachment 85956
> View attachment 85957
> View attachment 85958
> View attachment 85959



Wow, some awesome stuff there!!! Bridge is a Gotoh GTC on all of these?


----------



## mbardu

Strtsmthng said:


> Wow, some awesome stuff there!!! Bridge is a Gotoh GTC on all of these?



Bridge was typical Carvin FT7 of those times. 
Pretty solid and no-nonsense.


----------



## maliciousteve

Thanks guys. It's taking a little getting used to 7 string again. The pickups are letting the guitar down unfortunately, theyre a bit too 'fat' or 'rounded off' for me. I was considering getting an EVO 7 or Duncan Distortion 7 for the bridge but are the existing pickup routes going to be an issue?


----------



## spudmunkey

maliciousteve said:


> Thanks guys. It's taking a little getting used to 7 string again. The pickups are letting the guitar down unfortunately, theyre a bit too 'fat' or 'rounded off' for me. I was considering getting an EVO 7 or Duncan Distortion 7 for the bridge but are the existing pickup routes going to be an issue?



It depends, but likely yes. When the model was first released with the c26 pickups, the pickup routes were pretty under-sized. Later in it's life when they switched to the D26, they got a little bigger, but not a whole lot. Then they were enlarged again in the last few years of the model's life after they made their more-"standard" Lithium pickups the standard for that model. I dont remember off the top of my head, but if the model lasted long enough to be around when Kiesel released their 7-string pickup covers, the routes would have been enlarged again with more "squared off" corners to accommodate the covers...but I dont remember if the DC727/747 lasted that long.


----------



## gunch

The heyday of getting used DC747s For peanuts is over, isn’t it


----------



## maliciousteve

gunch said:


> The heyday of getting used DC747s For peanuts is over, isn’t it



this one was just under £1000 so yeah, prices are creeping up. I bought the DC135 around 2008 for £400, shows how things have changed.

These are the C26 pickups so looks like I may run into some trouble.


----------



## mbardu

gunch said:


> The heyday of getting used DC747s For peanuts is over, isn’t it



I bought the all-koa flamed maple neck above for 600$ at the time iiirc


----------



## KnightBrolaire

gunch said:


> The heyday of getting used DC747s For peanuts is over, isn’t it


all the used carvins and kiesels are going up in price.


----------



## spudmunkey

A good


maliciousteve said:


> These are the C26 pickups so looks like I may run into some trouble.


The guitar has a flat top, so a good tech, with a sharp router bit and good prep can, it's not impossible. If you're open to pickup rings, that can actually even "hide" a less-then-perfect routing job.

Alternatively, you might be able to get the stock pickup re-wound. If I remember right, re-winds are something Wolftone and Guitarmory does, or at least did at one point...but I don't know if they still do, or if they've ever done it with the older Carvin pickups.

Carvin reminds me a lot of Tandy. For a while, parts, softrware and even peripherals had to be "Tandy Compatible" or "For Tandy"...but eventually, evolved into being more in parity with the rest of the PC industry, and eventually re-named their company (to Radio Shack, in the case of Tandy).


----------



## BigViolin

I have a Carvin DC7x and I fit some BKPs by carefully filing about .5 mm from each (long) side of the metal baseplate on the pickups. No wood removal needed.


----------



## mbardu

New model announcement in 20 minutes.
I bet it's an explorer now that I finally no longer need one


----------



## spudmunkey

Hyperdrive:
6 & 7
Regular and multiscale
Hipshot fixed, Floyd, or Hipshot/Kiesel
Comes standard with black limba body wings
Has a 1.37lb stainless counterweight to improve balance, can be built without it. Under 8lbs average for the 6 without it.
Can be had with a "bevel delete"

25.5" scale standard, 6 is optionally available in 24.75.
Multiscale 6: 25.5-26.5", 7 string is 25.5-27"

"Yes" to lefty

8-string could come in the future, but it'd depend on success of the 6 and 7, and would need to test it since it would need to be tested with the extended scale.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

that is quite possibly the worst explorer take they could have done. It's lumpy looking, like he beveled off too much of a regular explorer body in the name of Kieseling it.


I would throw money at them left and right if they'd just make their headless type V shapes flipped.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Lol it looks like a 5 year old's drawing of an explorer. 

I kind like it. Idk why. If it came in 8 maybe I would jump on.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

spudmunkey said:


> Hyperdrive:
> 6 & 7
> Regular and multiscale
> Hipshot fixed, Floyd, or Hipshot/Kiesel
> Comes standard with black limba body wings
> Has a 1.37lb stainless counterweight to improve balance, can be built without it. Under 8lbs average for the 6 without it.
> Can be had with a "bevel delete"
> 
> 25.5" scale standard, 6 is optionally available in 24.75.
> Multiscale 6: 25.5-26.5", 7 string is 25.5-27"
> 
> "Yes" to lefty
> 
> 8-string could come in the future, but it'd depend on success of the 6 and 7, and would need to test it since it would need to be tested with the extended scale.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 86170
> 
> 
> View attachment 86171
> 
> 
> View attachment 86172
> 
> 
> View attachment 86173
> 
> 
> View attachment 86174
> 
> 
> View attachment 86175
> 
> 
> View attachment 86177
> 
> 
> View attachment 86178
> 
> 
> View attachment 86179
> 
> 
> View attachment 86180


My eyes!!!


----------



## Mathemagician

KnightBrolaire said:


> that is quite possibly the worst explorer take they could have done. It's lumpy looking, like he beveled off too much of a regular explorer body in the name of Kieseling it.
> 
> 
> I would throw money at them left and right if they'd just make their headless type V shapes flipped.



Gonna go against the grain here and say I think it looks cool.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Mathemagician said:


> Gonna go against the grain here and say I think it looks cool.


*sharpens pitchfork menacingly*


----------



## xzacx

Wow that's...not my favorite design. As much as I don't like the lower bout or the not-quite-straight-not-quite-curved bottom end, it's the top bout I find to be the biggest offender. There's just too much of it and the angle/curve doesn't seem to compliment any other lines on the guitar. The headstock angles don't really work either because it looks a lot more aggressive than the rest. I do think the counterweight is a really cool idea though—especially if it's removable (which it appears to be).


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> Hyperdrive:
> 6 & 7
> Regular and multiscale
> Hipshot fixed, Floyd, or Hipshot/Kiesel
> Comes standard with black limba body wings
> Has a 1.37lb stainless counterweight to improve balance, can be built without it. Under 8lbs average for the 6 without it.
> Can be had with a "bevel delete"
> 
> 25.5" scale standard, 6 is optionally available in 24.75.
> Multiscale 6: 25.5-26.5", 7 string is 25.5-27"
> 
> "Yes" to lefty
> 
> 8-string could come in the future, but it'd depend on success of the 6 and 7, and would need to test it since it would need to be tested with the extended scale.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 86170
> 
> 
> View attachment 86171
> 
> 
> View attachment 86172
> 
> 
> View attachment 86173
> 
> 
> View attachment 86174
> 
> 
> View attachment 86175
> 
> 
> View attachment 86177
> 
> 
> View attachment 86178
> 
> 
> View attachment 86179
> 
> 
> View attachment 86180



7-string Floyd?


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> 7-string Floyd?



He didn't say yes or no, but I have to assume not since it's not on any other model.


----------



## spudmunkey

xzacx said:


> The headstock angles don't really work either because it looks a lot more aggressive than the rest.



Here's another, and they also have others available.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

It is growing on my but no 8 is a downer. It'd be cool if they would do an 8 with evertune


----------



## xzacx

spudmunkey said:


> Here's another, and they also have others available.
> 
> View attachment 86181



I actually think this looks a lot better with it.


----------



## spudmunkey

Better view of the belly-cut.


----------



## spudmunkey

xzacx said:


> I actually think this looks a lot better with it.



That's the standard headstock, also, just to note.



More examples to be shown tomorrow, and then there will be a Thursday live video with Dan Jacobs who used a version of it in their latest video.


----------



## mbardu

mbardu said:


> New model announcement in 20 minutes.
> I bet it's an explorer now that I finally no longer need one



Well first of all ... called it.
But then mostly big yikes.

How did they manage to come up with both the worst Kiesel design and the worst Explorer design. At the same time. How?

No ragrets for looking elsewhere, and my next Kiesel remains a Leia, then.

Edit: it gets worse the more you look at it. Whyyy? Plus why add a counterweight instead of making it balanced if you know it's going to be an issue? And why not add it close to the bridge to at least _pretend _it has other benefits like sustain or whatever?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> He didn't say yes or no, but I have to assume not since it's not on any other model.



Booooooooooo


----------



## Mathemagician

KnightBrolaire said:


> *sharpens pitchfork menacingly*



Well guess I’ll just swing this near-morningstar of a guitar then.


----------



## TheUnvanquished

Yeah. So for some reason, I don't hate this. I can't quite articulate it, really. Having owned, loved, and sold a Gibson Explorer I wouldn't put this down as a definite 'no' as far as getting one. The original is hands down my favorite body shape, so metal and so comfortable to play. I think maybe what intrigues me is the 25.5" scale with a explorer-esque body shape. That was really the only thing I didn't really jive with on the Gibson...


----------



## mbardu

That natural quilt top is a pretty dope piece of wood though. Quite a waste.


----------



## mbardu

TheUnvanquished said:


> Yeah. So for some reason, I don't hate this. I can't quite articulate it, really. Having owned, loved, and sold a Gibson Explorer I wouldn't put this down as a definite 'no' as far as getting one. The original is hands down my favorite body shape, so metal and so comfortable to play. I think maybe what intrigues me is the 25.5" scale with a explorer-esque body shape. That was really the only thing I didn't really jive with on the Gibson...



You can still try a Kelly or a Schecter E if you want something 25.5 scale and don't want to deal with such an abomination


----------



## TheUnvanquished

^^^LOL. I know. I have a cheap Dean Dave Mustaine "explorer" with the longer scale. I might just upgrade the hardware and electronics on that. That was the plan when I bought the Dean, just never got around to it yet. Ha.


----------



## spudmunkey




----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> Plus why add a counterweight instead of making it balanced if you know it's going to be an issue?



Balance is a pretty wide-spread issue with explorers, sometimes even with larger, heavier bodies. They could have made the body larger, but that's not the guitar they wanted to build.



mbardu said:


> And why not add it close to the bridge to at least _pretend _it has other benefits like sustain or whatever?



Part of the reason would be that they would have to make it even heavier to have the same effect on balance since it'd be closer to the guitar's center of mass/rotation. Larger weight = more cost for the metal + more overall weight, and it's already heavier other neck-throughs.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Balance is a pretty wide-spread issue with explorers, sometimes even with larger, heavier bodies. They could have made the body larger, but that's not the guitar they wanted to build.
> 
> 
> 
> Part of the reason would be that they would have to make it even heavier to have the same effect on balance since it'd be closer to the guitar's center of mass/rotation. Larger weight = more cost for the metal + more overall weight, and it's already heavier other neck-throughs.



I know all that. I'm just disapoint 
Although I had only looked at the pictures in this thread so far.
Now that I'm looking at the video, I gotta say it's quite a bit better in movement than in those static shots.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> 7-string Floyd?



He mentions the Floyd is for the 6 at about 10 minutes in the video.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

if they had just made this more of a star shape (and less of a halfassed middle ground between a star and an explorer ) I would have been down to buy one.
But nope, this is basically an Epiphone beast/ Gibson Shark with a kiesel headstock.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> He mentions the Floyd is for the 6 at about 10 minutes in the video.



I figured. As a general rule I try not to watch the videos.


----------



## mbardu

Jeff Kiesel said:


> We've done enough headless models and we're good for a while





Jeff Kiesel said:


> We have no plans for a headless version



So pretty much guaranteed he'll take it to the bandsaw and chop off the head within the month.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

KnightBrolaire said:


> if they had just made this more of a star shape (and less of a halfassed middle ground between a star and an explorer ) I would have been down to buy one.
> But nope, this is basically an Epiphone beast/ Gibson Shark with a kiesel headstock.



Reminds me more of a Washburn A5.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> I figured. As a general rule I try not to watch the videos.



Yeah you don't miss a lot  . Although this time around I gotta say the guitar does look quite a bit better in the live video than in the pictures. I'm saying "better", not sure I'll say "good" anytime soon. But not as bad at least.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> Yeah you don't miss a lot  . Although this time around I gotta say the guitar does look quite a bit better in the live video than in the pictures. I'm saying "better", not sure I'll say "good" anytime soon. But not as bad at least.



I think it looks just fine.


----------



## Seabeast2000

MaxOfMetal said:


> Reminds me more of a Washburn A5.


A5 >


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> I think it looks just fine.


----------



## spudmunkey




----------



## Albake21

Yikes... that thing is pretty ugly, but hey, I'm always happy to see new models even if it's not my thing.


----------



## spudmunkey

dblpost...


----------



## spudmunkey

In the facebook post comments:
"It doesn't look anything like an Explorer"
"How dare kiesel copy an Explorer!"


----------



## Metal Mortician

Wasn't the reason for the shorter shapes like this and the Ultra V simply that the shapes wouldn't be able to completely able to fit on their CNC tables if they were to standard/original size explorers and Vs.


----------



## spudmunkey

Metal Mortician said:


> Wasn't the reason for the shorter shapes like this and the Ultra V simply that the shapes wouldn't be able to completely able to fit on their CNC tables if they were to standard/original size explorers and Vs.



I have a vaugue recollection about something like that, but they also have different CNC machines than they did years ago.


----------



## spudmunkey

Did a tiny rough mock-up to see what it would look like if the two sides of the body's "waist" were aligned, and it soddenly looks more like a Charvel Star...but would look less like it if it had the "bevel delete" option to get rid of that scoop in the back.


----------



## Hollowway

I want to like this, because that quilted maple is GLORIOUS. But the back end is just caught between horns and no horns. It makes them look vestigial, and is doing some uncanny valley thing to the design. 

Anyone know if that's the bevel we can delete? I might get one if we can delete that back bevel.

EDIT: Ah, nards. I was hoping for a 7 string Floyd.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> Anyone know if that's the bevel we can delete? I might get one if we can delete that back bevel.



Yes, there is a "bevel delete" option that gets rid of that scoop on the back edge, and the upper fret access scoop, so you don't see any "sides" of the top or body straight on from the front.


----------



## spudmunkey

Clearer view of the Purple lavender one:




My shitty photoshop of it with the optional "bevel delete" option:


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> Clearer view of the Purple lavender one:
> View attachment 86200
> 
> 
> 
> My shitty photoshop of it with the optional "bevel delete" option:
> View attachment 86199



thats probably the way I’d go. It’s not as sexy as a Kelly, but I think I’d dig it more than the beveled option. These have decently high starting prices, so it’ll be interesting to see if a nice one can be put together on the lower end of the spectrum.


----------



## Indigenous




----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Clearer view of the Purple lavender one:
> View attachment 86200
> 
> 
> 
> My shitty photoshop of it with the optional "bevel delete" option:
> View attachment 86199



Hey I get it now, it's basically a reverse-Kelly.
The rounded bits are pointy, the pointy bits are rounded, and the curve in the body is inward instead of outward.

It makes sense now. Explains why I reverse-love the shape as much as I love the Kelly shape


----------



## mbardu

Hollowway said:


> thats probably the way I’d go. It’s not as sexy as a Kelly, but I think I’d dig it more than the beveled option. These have decently high starting prices, so it’ll be interesting to see if a nice one can be put together on the lower end of the spectrum.



If you can live with the shape, it will still be a pretty great value (especially If you grab one during a sale). With the recent Jackson price increases it's going to become very hard to get a Jackson Kelly under 3/3.5k ... even before adding little things like "not black pleeeeease" or stainless steel frets.


----------



## wannabguitarist

spudmunkey said:


>



I don't usually like but pointy guitars, but this is hot. Y'all are nuts


----------



## Shask

Reminds me of something the Flintstones would play, lol.


----------



## technomancer

This was almost a really cool star design... almost.

But hey, it includes its own butt plug


----------



## Mathemagician

spudmunkey said:


> In the facebook post comments:
> "It doesn't look anything like an Explorer"
> "How dare kiesel copy an Explorer!"



That headstock looks way better. If only they had something just slightly different/banana-ier.


----------



## spudmunkey

Mathemagician said:


> That headstock looks way better. If only they had something just slightly different/banana-ier.



There's their "GT headstock which is similar to this one but the points are softer...but that's as close as you'll get.


----------



## Hollowway

I've said this before (probably in this thread) but I don't think Jeff has anyone who can really design well. You can't just grab anyone and expect them to have the talent to come up with a super pleasing design. I'd love to see what they could do if they hired someone with Simon Padalka's level of talent to design for them. A really good designer can create a timeless design that they won't have to retire when the novelty wears off.


----------



## Bdtunn

spudmunkey said:


> Did a tiny rough mock-up to see what it would look like if the two sides of the body's "waist" were aligned, and it soddenly looks more like a Charvel Star...but would look less like it if it had the "bevel delete" option to get rid of that scoop in the back.
> 
> View attachment 86196




See that works. I said early to someone that it looks off, this clears it up.


----------



## Avedas

Yeah, that's a hard no from me dawg.



Hollowway said:


> I've said this before (probably in this thread) but I don't think Jeff has anyone who can really design well. You can't just grab anyone and expect them to have the talent to come up with a super pleasing design. I'd love to see what they could do if they hired someone with Simon Padalka's level of talent to design for them. A really good designer can create a timeless design that they won't have to retire when the novelty wears off.


Jeff said he does all the designs himself, so I guess that about sums that up. Although to be fair I don't think I've seen anyone else in the game except Simon who's doing forward thinking, fresh designs that actually look good (to me).


----------



## spudmunkey

https://imgur.com/rS5mths


----------



## Hollowway

Avedas said:


> Yeah, that's a hard no from me dawg.
> 
> 
> Jeff said he does all the designs himself, so I guess that about sums that up. Although to be fair I don't think I've seen anyone else in the game except Simon who's doing forward thinking, fresh designs that actually look good (to me).



Not many out there, but the strandberg is a good design, Skervesen has some cool ones, and oodles of bass designers. But, for something that people arguably buy mostly with their eyes, you’d think a company with the resources would hire a proper designer. And that’s not limited to Kiesel.


----------



## mbardu

Hollowway said:


> Not many out there, but the strandberg is a good design, Skervesen has some cool ones, and oodles of bass designers. But, for something that people arguably buy mostly with their eyes, you’d think a company with the resources would hire a proper designer. And that’s not limited to Kiesel.



As with a lot of things Kiesel, I guess for them it boils down to "sure maybe, but on the other hand why would we bother?". Same category as the antiquated website for example. In the sense that they already have way too many orders as it is. More than they can manage. Enough that regular price increases don't even begin to slow the flow. Even if they were to have a lull in sales, just do a run or promo, and they pick up hundreds of orders without breaking a sweat.
So they don't do it cause it has worked just fine thus far without doing it.

Plus I suspect Jeff would prefer to keep the designs his rather than bring in other creative forces.


----------



## Avedas

Hollowway said:


> Not many out there, but the strandberg is a good design, Skervesen has some cool ones, and oodles of bass designers. But, for something that people arguably buy mostly with their eyes, you’d think a company with the resources would hire a proper designer. And that’s not limited to Kiesel.


Oh yeah, Strandberg for sure. Probably the best and certainly most influential new design of the past decade or so. But they've also done not much new since the Boden took off, and personally I don't like the Salen at all. I think Ola found their winning formula and now it's just about expanding operations on it.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

spudmunkey said:


> https://imgur.com/rS5mths





spudmunkey said:


> https://imgur.com/rS5mths




I have made this more accurate.


----------



## RevelGTR

Hollowway said:


> I've said this before (probably in this thread) but I don't think Jeff has anyone who can really design well. You can't just grab anyone and expect them to have the talent to come up with a super pleasing design. I'd love to see what they could do if they hired someone with Simon Padalka's level of talent to design for them. A really good designer can create a timeless design that they won't have to retire when the novelty wears off.



It’s interesting that you say that, when the Zeus came out I thought it was ugly as f and now I’m pretty sure it’s my favorite headless design out there He definitely has a unique design sense but they do seem to grow on people.


----------



## gunshow86de

I like it. I'm not watching the whole video, did he say if it's possible to order without the counterweight (and hole)?


----------



## mbardu

gunshow86de said:


> I like it. I'm not watching the whole video, did he say if it's possible to order without the counterweight (and hole)?



Although they don't have the program in to do that easily as a common option, it sounds like they can manually do it. 
However, it doesn't cost less (might cost _more _for manual labor), they don't encourage it, and it makes the guitar non-returnable.
So I would really not recommend it.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Webbed Star, its ok but not my bag.

Isn't the magic of an Explorer the skinny waist?


----------



## Hollowway

gunshow86de said:


> I like it. I'm not watching the whole video, did he say if it's possible to order without the counterweight (and hole)?


Yes to without the counterweight. I'm assuming the hole won't be there. But where are you going to store your M & Ms then?


----------



## Hollowway

Seabeast2000 said:


> Webbed Star, its ok but not my bag.
> 
> Isn't the magic of an Explorer the skinny waist?



Webbed star is 100% the best description of that design.


----------



## mbardu

RevelGTR said:


> It’s interesting that you say that, when the Zeus came out I thought it was ugly as f and now I’m pretty sure it’s my favorite headless design out there He definitely has a unique design sense but they do seem to grow on people.



I like the parallel with the Zeus.
Also felt it was fugly at first, only to now think it's _just _ugly enough to be endearingly cute.


----------



## mbardu

Seabeast2000 said:


> Isn't the magic of an Explorer the skinny waist?



Some like it *T H I C C*
Not saying me, but some.


----------



## gunshow86de

According to the Atreyu guy this is his new signature model. Check out the "rad" text. This is a nearly 40 year old man, by the way.


----------



## BigViolin

Edgy, so edgy.


----------



## mbardu

gunshow86de said:


> According to the Atreyu guy this is his new signature model. Check out the "rad" text. This is a nearly 40 year old man, by the way.



I am really not into that esthetic, and know nothing of Atreyu, but this is obviously an act. 
Not any worse than the white makeup and spikes of some tru black metal  ...


----------



## _MonSTeR_

mbardu said:


> Not any worse than the white makeup and spikes of some tru black metal  ...



Can I just check? Is ‘tru’ the same thing as ‘trve’. And presumably nothing to do with ‘true’?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

gunshow86de said:


> According to the Atreyu guy this is his new signature model. Check out the "rad" text. This is a nearly 40 year old man, by the way.


man his old LTD sig was perfection. These are fucking abominations


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

gunshow86de said:


> According to the Atreyu guy this is his new signature model. Check out the "rad" text. This is a nearly 40 year old man, by the way.


Wahhhh! My eyes!


----------



## mbardu

Not saying I agree with that look in particular, but I gotta say the graphics on flat colors actually work quite well with that shape.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Everytime I check into the Kiesel camp it just makes me glad that I checked out in the era of the Vader/K Series and didn't stick around for the last 6 - 7 new instruments they released


----------



## Hollowway

Everytime I pick up one of my Kiesels and play it, I think, "Man, this is nice! Why don't I own more of these?" Then I lot in to maybe buy one, and say, "Oh. Yeah."


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Hollowway said:


> Everytime I pick up one of my Kiesels and play it, I think, "Man, this is nice! Why don't I own more of these?" Then I lot in to maybe buy one, and say, "Oh. Yeah."



LOL it is because you bought all my old ones


----------



## gunshow86de

mbardu said:


> I am really not into that esthetic, and know nothing of Atreyu, but this is obviously an act.
> Not any worse than the white makeup and spikes of some tru black metal  ...


----------



## spudmunkey




----------



## RevelGTR

I think I might be stupid because it’s growing on me a little bit.

The green crackle still looks like a mess but I like the lavender one and the white one above.


----------



## mbardu

RevelGTR said:


> I think I might be stupid because it’s growing on me a little bit.
> 
> The green crackle still looks like a mess but I like the lavender one and the white one above.



Yeah I don't even hate that white one I mean wtf


----------



## mbardu

Multiscale:


----------



## RevelGTR

mbardu said:


> Multiscale:



Stupidity confirmed, I definitely like this.


----------



## Mathemagician

mbardu said:


> I am really not into that esthetic, and know nothing of Atreyu, but this is obviously an act.
> Not any worse than the white makeup and spikes of some tru black metal  ...



Metal is NOT allowed to be fun. It has to be super serious and stuff. #devil #scowlface


----------



## mbardu

Mathemagician said:


> Metal is NOT allowed to be fun. It has to be super serious and stuff. #devil #scowlface



Norwegian metal curriculum is 25% instrument practice, 25% satanic rituals, 15% band practice, 20% makeup classes, 15% church burning.

Optional modules : animal slaughtering and hieroglyphic calligraphy


----------



## Avedas

Is it really metal if you don't use Latin titles, incorporate Norse themes, or wear eyeliner?


----------



## Metal Mortician

Eyeliner is subjective. The aforementioned Mr. Jacobs did come about during the Screamo phase of the mid 2000s where nearly every dude sported guyliner (slowly raises hand).


----------



## spudmunkey

Metal Mortician said:


> Eyeliner is subjective. The aforementioned Mr. Jacobs did come about during the Screamo phase of the mid 2000s where nearly every dude sported guyliner (slowly raises hand).



Now I'm imagining an "emo phase" Crow T Robot.


----------



## Hollowway

I like how we’re all to the point that when kiesel releases a new body shape we say, “You know, I’m getting used to it, and it’s actually not that bad.”  Hardly a raving endorsement of their art.


----------



## mbardu

Hollowway said:


> I like how we’re all to the point that when kiesel releases a new body shape we say, “You know, I’m getting used to it, and it’s actually not that bad.”  Hardly a raving endorsement of their art.



I loooooved the Leia from day 1. The Zeus had the same effect on me in a matter of months- ugly at first, really like the design now.
This one still looks weird, but it's only day 2 and I already kinda like the multiscale with flat color so...progress I guess  ?


----------



## Hollowway

I don’t really like any of the newer designs. I don’t like the Zeus, Vader, Vanquish, Aries bevel, etc. I love the playability, but the designs seem like something someone with little artistic ability sketched out. I’m aware that this is exactly how it happened  and I harp on this constantly, but I’d still love a really well designed body. These feel like fast fashion to me. Design something that appeals to people who want something new and right now, rush it out, then retire it when the next thing comes along. But wtf do I know about running a company. Maybe that’s the way to go these days. It’s kind of the Orange County choppers approach, as opposed to Matt Hotch stuff.


----------



## Hollowway

Damn, I just saw that red-black color shift on FB. I guess I better find a body style I like, because that’s hands down the coolest color shift I’ve seen!


----------



## fps

Would we still define the Kiesel sound, if there were such a thing, as that slightly brighter one that cuts and is especially good for fusion-y stuff? As ever I love my Carvin DC727, monster for my hard rock thing.


----------



## Avedas

Of the newer designs, I only like the Aries. I found one used in a local shop and after trying it out, I had to own one. Plays like magic. But I think the thing that I liked most about it is that it's a classic design with a twist, but one that is ultimately functional. It's not _too _goofy and outlandish, but unique enough in its own way.


----------



## jephjacques

I like that shape but that dude's whole aesthetic is EXTREMELY yikes


----------



## technomancer

mbardu said:


> I loooooved the Leia from day 1. The Zeus had the same effect on me in a matter of months- ugly at first, really like the design now.
> This one still looks weird, but it's only day 2 and I already kinda like the multiscale with flat color so...progress I guess  ?



I am following so closely that I missed the Leia even came out. That said I like most of the non-sig Kiesel headless shapes except for the star and V stuff, I just find Jeff distasteful


----------



## gunshow86de

obamanotbad.jpg


----------



## spudmunkey




----------



## DiezelMonster

Hollowway said:


> Damn, I just saw that red-black color shift on FB. I guess I better find a body style I like, because that’s hands down the coolest color shift I’ve seen!



I'm not on facebook anymore, can you post a picture or whatever you saw here?

Thanks dude


----------



## spudmunkey

DiezelMonster said:


> I'm not on facebook anymore, can you post a picture or whatever you saw here?
> 
> Thanks dude


----------



## DiezelMonster

Good fucking god that is amazing! the colour anyway

Thanks for posting!




spudmunkey said:


>


----------



## spudmunkey

DiezelMonster said:


> Good fucking god that is amazing! the colour anyway
> 
> Thanks for posting!



It's from House of Kolor. Kiesel gets at least some of their paint finishes from them, and when people ask about custom finishes, often suggest people check them out. This is one of their finishes....although I'm not sure where to find this or the other color shifts. Their site is a little unweildy unless you know what all of their product names represent, and I couldn't find an example that looks like this.


----------



## Hollowway

“Look it’s black, but if I tip it a little bit...ok right there. Now it’s RED!” 

just practicing my explanation to my wife why I needed a new guitar because “this one is different.”


----------



## gunshow86de

Hollowway said:


> “Look it’s black, but if I tip it a little bit...ok right there. Now it’s RED!”
> 
> just practicing my explanation to my wife why I needed a new guitar because “this one is different.”


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Hollowway said:


> “Look it’s black, but if I tip it a little bit...ok right there. Now it’s RED!”
> 
> just practicing my explanation to my wife why I needed a new guitar because “this one is different.”



I've learned to just tell my fiance before I order it. Then no surprises. I have a UV777BK on the way


----------



## spudmunkey




----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


>


WOW that is cool as hell. I think I would love that but go from black to a green or blue. Is this a new color or was it an option 50?


----------



## soul_lip_mike

spudmunkey said:


> View attachment 86252



God that shape is fugly imho.


----------



## spudmunkey

Albake21 said:


> WOW that is cool as hell. I think I would love that but go from black to a green or blue. Is this a new color or was it an option 50?



It's not currently a standard option.

A copy and paste from a couple posts shortly after the pics: 


spudmunkey said:


> It's from House of Kolor. Kiesel gets at least some of their paint finishes from them, and when people ask about custom finishes, often suggest people check them out. This is one of their finishes....although I'm not sure where to find this or the other color shifts. Their site is a little unweildy unless you know what all of their product names represent, and I couldn't find an example that looks like this.


----------



## spudmunkey




----------



## gunshow86de

I don't know, I'm kinda liking these.


----------



## spudmunkey




----------



## Avedas

That looks so much better as multiscale.


----------



## laxu

I don't love it. I think the body looks too small especially with that reverse hockey stick headstock.


----------



## shadowlife

laxu said:


> I don't love it. I think the body looks too small especially with that reverse hockey stick headstock.



I think if they did this as a headless, it would look a lot less awkward.


----------



## Metal Mortician

I will confess the natural white with the 3x3 headstock is growing on me.


----------



## kisielk

definitely looks way better with the 3x3, but then again I've never been a fan of those hockey stick headstocks


----------



## Hollowway

I think inline is good, but it shouldn’t be reversed, and should be redesigned to look more like it complements the lower horn.


----------



## Spicypickles

The body is just too small. That’s my gripe - it needs to be extended somewhere.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Spicypickles said:


> The body is just too small. That’s my gripe - it needs to be extended somewhere.


Yes, spot on!

This reminds me of those “shrunk in the wash” Iceman and Destroyer guitars that Ibanez did a few years ago. That didn’t sell very well...


----------



## KnightBrolaire

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Yes, spot on!
> 
> This reminds me of those “shrunk in the wash” Iceman and Destroyer guitars that Ibanez did a few years ago. That didn’t sell very well...


nah the mini destroyers were awesome. Even as a bigger guy they were more comfortable than the standard versions. They balanced better and played wayyy better in classical position.


----------



## Edika

The multiscale seems to work better too. Still it is a far cry from an Explorer shape and I will not accept it as such.


----------



## mlp187

spudmunkey said:


>


Is there a color code for this, or is it one-off? I’m in love with the finish.


----------



## spudmunkey

mlp187 said:


> Is there a color code for this, or is it one-off? I’m in love with the finish.



Costom color, from House of Kolor.


----------



## Mathemagician

soul_lip_mike said:


> God that shape is fugly imho.



To me it’s more like “almost there” like it’s a prototype for what WILL be a cool new explorer type shape. Only for me I wish it was a star, not explorer. 



Spicypickles said:


> The body is just too small. That’s my gripe - it needs to be extended somewhere.



To me, I’d like that lower back end to be a bit more “pointed” like a proper star shape. B/c with the bevels that feels like what it’s trying to be. 

Also wish the “waist” lined up evenly, I think someone photoshopped that already.


----------



## spudmunkey

I've always hated star-shaped guitars even more than I dislike explorers, so I'm not their target audience for anything like this. 



Mathemagician said:


> Also wish the “waist” lined up evenly, I think someone photoshopped that already.



https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/the-carvin-kiesel-thread.158783/page-216#post-5195009


----------



## Viginez

Spicypickles said:


> The body is just too small. That’s my gripe - it needs to be extended somewhere.


something like this? looks much better (i don't remember the brand)


----------



## spudmunkey

IMO, that looks worse.


----------



## Viginez

give it some days...it will grow on you


----------



## bracky

It looks amazing to me in multi 7. I need to sell a few guitars.


----------



## Mathemagician

Speak of the devil. Came across this on Instagram today. This is essentially what I keep thinking I see when I glance at the Kiesel shape. I would 100% be into a more proportional star instead of the clearly ‘80’s inspired “let’s just do whatever bro!” 


Idk, it’s not for me, but it’s pretty close IMO.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Mathemagician said:


> View attachment 86395
> 
> 
> Speak of the devil. Came across this on Instagram today. This is essentially what I keep thinking I see when I glance at the Kiesel shape. I would 100% be into a more proportional star instead of the clearly ‘80’s inspired “let’s just do whatever bro!”
> 
> 
> Idk, it’s not for me, but it’s pretty close IMO.


how dare you compare the kiesel abomination to a kelly star


----------



## Mathemagician

KnightBrolaire said:


> how dare you compare the kiesel abomination to a kelly star



The Kiesel is CLEARLY a good 2-3 years in the gym, good sleep schedule, and a healthy high protein diet away from becoming the Kelly Star it looks up to. 

Stop making it feel bad for not being shredded yet (god I’m proud of that pun), we all gotta start somewhere.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Mathemagician said:


> The Kiesel is CLEARLY a good 2-3 years in the gym, good sleep schedule, and a healthy high protein diet away from becoming the Kelly Star it looks up to.
> 
> Stop making it feel bad for not being shredded yet (god I’m proud of that pun), we all gotta start somewhere.



Going to need a few tucks, maybe some butt injections.


----------



## narad

GF's got good instincts:


----------



## MaxOfMetal

narad said:


> GF's got good instincts:



Put a ring on it dude, she's a keeper.


----------



## kisielk

I picked up one of the last HF2s that they made a couple of months ago. Love the look, sound, and playability of it but... it’s got the worst neck dive of any guitar I’ve ever played. The neck goes straight towards the floor as soon as you let it go. I guess it’s a combination of light wood and small hollow body and pretty solid neck and chunky tuners. Looking for ways to resolve this now since I really love the guitar otherwise. Thinking of actually using a counterweight type thing like on that hyperdrive, maybe attached to the end of the strap.


----------



## mbardu

kisielk said:


> I picked up one of the last HF2s that they made a couple of months ago. Love the look, sound, and playability of it but... it’s got the worst neck dive of any guitar I’ve ever played. The neck goes straight towards the floor as soon as you let it go. I guess it’s a combination of light wood and small hollow body and pretty solid neck and chunky tuners. Looking for ways to resolve this now since I really love the guitar otherwise. Thinking of actually using a counterweight type thing like on that hyperdrive, maybe attached to the end of the strap.



Yeah the body is very hollow, and the neck is usually very chunky too.
I didn't have soo much trouble with the ones I owned (way less than a bad Kelly for example), but I tend to use very wide grippy straps when playing standing up so...maybe try that first? If not enough, then yeah, attach a weight there near the butt of the guitar, it wouldn't hurt.
I've seen people try to slightly move the strap button, but that rarely works as you'd like and has ergonomic issues of its own.


----------



## kisielk

Yeah I already have a pretty wide leather strap and it helps a bit, but still doesn’t alleviate it enough. The guitar is light enough that a bit more weight would not make it uncomfortable. And besides, one of my other guitars is an SG2000 so nothing is ever going to approach that.


----------



## mbardu

kisielk said:


> Yeah I already have a pretty wide leather strap and it helps a bit, but still doesn’t alleviate it enough. The guitar is light enough that a bit more weight would not make it uncomfortable. And besides, one of my other guitars is an SG2000 so nothing is ever going to approach that.



That guy: _hold my beer_
Those Yamahas were something though. I think I played one that was almost 6 kgs


----------



## kisielk

Yeah, I use a 3-inch wide super padded strap for that one, it's actually not bad.


----------



## spudmunkey

kisielk said:


> I picked up one of the last HF2s that they made a couple of months ago. Love the look, sound, and playability of it but... it’s got the worst neck dive of any guitar I’ve ever played. The neck goes straight towards the floor as soon as you let it go. I guess it’s a combination of light wood and small hollow body and pretty solid neck and chunky tuners. Looking for ways to resolve this now since I really love the guitar otherwise. Thinking of actually using a counterweight type thing like on that hyperdrive, maybe attached to the end of the strap.



Have you tried the lower strap button? I've read posts from a couple of people say they preferred it, but it tool a bit to get used to the guitar hanging differently, but that it also worked better for someone with a bit of a "belly".

A strap-attached wireless battery pack, filled with an adjustable amount of ball bearings, weighs, fishing sinkers, etc?

There were two products that don't seem to be availble any more, but maybe you could find them: Axe Balancer counterweight and Heads Up strap, which had a pocket for lead plates.

Also, DIY method using a belt loop style wireless pack.
http://www.whoisjaylamm.com/2013/05...-for-neck-heavy-instruments-a-special-how-to/


----------



## kisielk

Yeah I've tried the lower button, it doesn't really help in my case. I definitely don't have a belly  I'm probably going to go with the pouch on strap filled with something approach.


----------



## spudmunkey

FYI, for anyone who wanted a Vader, but couldn't get Fishman Fluences...

In today's live, someone asked about Fluence pickups, and if they were only available on the models where it's shown on the builder.

Jeff said that he's gotten a fair number of requests for the Fluence pickups on the Vader.

For the next week, he'll accept orders for Vaders with fluence pickups, and they will build them, I assume at the normal upgrade pricing. If it's a popular-enough item, he'll make it an official option on the model. But if not, likely not.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> FYI, for anyone who wanted a Vader, but couldn't get Fishman Fluences...
> 
> In today's live, someone asked about Fluence pickups, and if they were only available on the models where it's shown on the builder.
> 
> Jeff said that he's gotten a fair number of requests for the Fluence pickups on the Vader.
> 
> For the next week, he'll accept orders for Vaders with fluence pickups, and they will build them, I assume at the normal upgrade pricing. If it's a popular-enough item, he'll make it an official option on the model. But if not, likely not.



Is there something about the Vader that makes installing Fishman pickups difficult? Like weird routes or something?


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> Is there something about the Vader that makes installing Fishman pickups difficult? Like weird routes or something?



I dont really have a clear understanding, but it's not so much that it's difficult...just diffrrent. The Vader was designed before they started offering them, and apparently there may be some conflict with the chambering design...that's all I could put together.


----------



## jco5055

random question I have: how "good" are the Kiesel special editions when you compare them to similarly priced guitars? I'm curious since I know most seem to agree that Kiesel is great if you consider the "bang for the buck"/limit your options to keep it below $2k or so, but seeing how the SE legit adds $2k on top of your model....what are the options it provides?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

jco5055 said:


> random question I have: how "good" are the Kiesel special editions when you compare them to similarly priced guitars? I'm curious since I know most seem to agree that Kiesel is great if you consider the "bang for the buck"/limit your options to keep it below $2k or so, but seeing how the SE legit adds $2k on top of your model....what are the options it provides?


not good enough to warrant that extra 2k. just ask @Jonathan20022


----------



## spudmunkey

It's still not a quality bump. The same people do the fretwork. The same people do the sanding, spray the finishes, and install the electronics.

It gets you a "top" for the back of the body and headstock, some upgrade woods are discounted, some one-on-one time with planning finishes etc with Jeff, and you get progress photos.

But to get it, you first get on a waiting list at least a year long, and you pretty much need to be an existing customer of a new guitar or two.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> one-on-one time with...Jeff,


----------



## Seabeast2000

This is the hold music before your 1:1 session.


----------



## kisielk

I think up charges for wood must be where Kiesel gets most of the profit, because they are pretty steep when you compare to other brands. I was spending some stuff out recently and a Birdseye Maple neck is a $400 up charge at Kiesel. At Warmoth it’s like $250. 
At Balaguer you can get a 5-piece Roasted Maple neck for $120 whereas at Kiesel 5-piece Maple necks are $200 and not roasted.


----------



## jarledge

kisielk said:


> I think up charges for wood must be where Kiesel gets most of the profit, because they are pretty steep when you compare to other brands. I was spending some stuff out recently and a Birdseye Maple neck is a $400 up charge at Kiesel. At Warmoth it’s like $250.
> At Balaguer you can get a 5-piece Roasted Maple neck for $120 whereas at Kiesel 5-piece Maple necks are $200 and not roasted.



Jeff himself has said multiple times that they don't make much money on basic guitars. They make their money on people getting pricier "upgrades" to include body and neck woods . That is why he only wants to make around 4k guitars a year and try to get people to spend around 2k on their builds because that is where they are most profitable. He said they are on average making around 10-15% on most builds and I am positive that is coming from options like body and neck wood "upgrades" which is why he will never say "tone woods" aren't a thing or don't matter. 

Isn't Balagure all korean made ? Warmoth is fantastic but they aren't doing many 7 strings and zero 8 strings and everything they do is bolt on. When you take that many variables out you can optimize production and building. If i want a bolt on 6, warmoth is going to win out value wise almost every time. Most of the time I don't want a bolt on 6 though. I have been eyeballin a jazzcaster build pretty hard though.


----------



## mbardu

kisielk said:


> I think up charges for wood must be where Kiesel gets most of the profit, because they are pretty steep when you compare to other brands. I was spending some stuff out recently and a Birdseye Maple neck is a $400 up charge at Kiesel. At Warmoth it’s like $250.
> At Balaguer you can get a 5-piece Roasted Maple neck for $120 whereas at Kiesel 5-piece Maple necks are $200 and not roasted.



You are correct regarding wood upgrades. In fact many are not much cheaper than getting similar upgrades with builders like Suhr- it's just that the base prices on most instruments are _significantly _lower. The prices they charge on some finishes is also a big turn off. That discussion aside, I feel Balaguer is not a great example of "value" though. All Korean made, with no guarantee of quality, very few real word reviews (especially long term ones), no return possible, and some customs easily get to 2k territory... I think there are better options out there.


----------



## Jonathan20022

KnightBrolaire said:


> not good enough to warrant that extra 2k. just ask @Jonathan20022



Just for the sake of putting it out there, I never paid any upcharge to work with Jeff on the last 3 instruments. I doubt you could even call it a benefit other than receiving a picture of my top and gushing over how cool it looked. Then arguing with him about the following guitars because he took the liberty of changing my specs without permission and tried charging me to follow the original spec sheet 

I worked 100% through Chris Hong, and the interactions with Jeff were "free" and limited to the above, although it's a huge tl;dr if you want the full context click the link to the OG post.

https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/the-carvin-kiesel-thread.158783/page-191#post-5125648

I would never personally get on a waitlist and pay a major upcharge like that for some DMs, and more figured tops on my guitar. It's like paying John Suhr for *HIS *time to build you a guitar personally, it'll never make sense since he will charge what his time is worth. There's really no benefit to paying the owner of a company to build you the same guitar his crew would.

The only benefit I can see is you can tout on the Reverb listing when you get it. But then you realize you just paid 4k+ for a Kiesel and are about to lose a hefty amount of that in resale.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Ngl i still gas for a vanquish.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Seabeast2000 said:


> Ngl i still gas for a vanquish.



Such an underrated model.


----------



## spudmunkey




----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> Such an underrated model.



I've been wanting one since they introduced the Vanquish bass, and I hassled them from day 1 to make it into a guitar 
Haven't bought one yet though. The neck pocket and neck heel are the only things giving me pause, really.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> I've been wanting one since they introduced the Vanquish bass, and I hassled them from day 1 to make it into a guitar
> Haven't bought one yet though. The neck pocket and neck heel are the only things giving me pause, really.



I've played one and it really sold me on it, nice and comfy. It's just a no-go for me without FR on the 7.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> I've played one and it really sold me on it, nice and comfy. It's just a no-go for me without FR on the 7.



Oh for sure- The body is nice, the balance and neck position are great...and I've played a bunch of Kiesels with that joint that were perfectly fine.
I'm just secretly hoping they'll have an update to make it rounder and smoother a-la Modern or AANJ + maybe a piece of wood to complement the pin they have now.
And in the meantime the next one I'm getting is a Leia so I'm in no rush.


----------



## technomancer

Interesting, the Leia doesn't have a chambered option in the builder.

Kind of tempted by the current sale to do a lambo orange headless...


----------



## spudmunkey

Yeah, the Vanquish is super nice. The shape strikes a lot of people as "retro", but when you hold it, it feels like an even more stream-lined Aries: a beveled, modern bolt-on double-cut. The forearm bevel feels almost as good as the Aries, and it's slim on both sides. Not as slim as, say, an Ibanez S, but slim enough they can't use their normal output jack plate on the edge. They have to use one of their plateless barrel-style jacks. Those jacks have a less-than-stellar reputation though, so a different one might be something you'd want to factor in to the overall cost...



technomancer said:


> Interesting, the Leia doesn't have a chambered option in the builder.



The Leia isn't available with chambering. The body is so small, that it wouldn't hardly be benefit, so they didn't bother designing a chambering design.

It might seem like it shouldn't be a problem since the Holdsworth is available with it, but unlike the Holdsworth headless, which is roughly the same size, the Leia also has an upper bout switch cavity already, a carved/sloped forearm contour (and you need surface area under that for the glue-down of a bent top), and it has a belly cut where you'd only be able to chamber partial-depth anyway. Combined with also not being able to chamber under the bridge for obvious reasons, where the pickups are, or where there's already a control cavity...there's not a whole lot of space left besides between the pickups maybe.


----------



## technomancer

spudmunkey said:


> The Leia isn't available with chambering. The body is so small, that it wouldn't hardly be benefit, so they didn't bother designing a chambering design.
> 
> It might seem like it shouldn't be a problem since the Holdsworth is available with it, but unlike the Holdsworth headless, which is roughly the same size, the Leia also has an upper bout switch cavity already, a carved/sloped forearm contour (and you need surface area under that for the glue-down of a bent top), and it has a belly cut where you'd only be able to chamber partial-depth anyway. Combined with also not being able to chamber under the bridge for obvious reasons, where the pickups are, or where there's already a control cavity...there's not a whole lot of space left besides between the pickups maybe.



The Leia is virtually the exact same size as the Zeus except for the forearm carve and switch cavity, and the whole side of the Zeus is beveled and they chamber that model


----------



## spudmunkey

technomancer said:


> The Leia is virtually the exact same size as the Zeus except for the forearm carve and switch cavity, and the whole side of the Zeus is beveled and they chamber that model



The Leia is even smaller than a Zeus, and with it's flat top you can chamber closer to the edges, and the whole upper bout area is empty.






Again, I'm not saying it's impossible, just that they didn't think it was worth anyone's time or extra attention to bother for such minimal benefit. It ties up the CNC machines for longer, if nothing else.

A quick sketch showing where they *couldn't* chamber, clouded in white:


----------



## Hollowway

Damn, that free candy pink finish calling my name!


----------



## mbardu

Hollowway said:


> Damn, that free candy pink finish calling my name!



Sounds like you have to upgrade the top to 5A.
Anybody knows how much that is?


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> Sounds like you have to upgrade the top to 5A.
> Anybody knows how much that is?



It's different depending on the wood. A regular flamed maple top is $250, I *think* the 5A is $150 more.


----------



## Hollowway

Not really sure where to put this, but I remember Sims Cashion being an endorser of Kiesel. Heads up if anyone sees him online and wants to buy from him. He set up an alias of “Kelsey Butler” and would post pictures of other people’s gear and then keep the money. Apparently they tracked it down, found out it was him, and now he’s (temporarily?) gone dark.


----------



## MiPwnYew

Hollowway said:


> Not really sure where to put this, but I remember Sims Cashion being an endorser of Kiesel. Heads up if anyone sees him online and wants to buy from him. He set up an alias of “Kelsey Butler” and would post pictures of other people’s gear and then keep the money. Apparently they tracked it down, found out it was him, and now he’s (temporarily?) gone dark.



Damn, where did this all unfold? I remember him posting awhile back that his laptop was stolen and he was basically selling everything he could, doing lessons, and whatever else he could to get money (gofundme?). That's pretty shitty though about scamming people if true. Seems like everyone has been waiting forever for him to release an album too.


----------



## Hollowway

MiPwnYew said:


> Damn, where did this all unfold? I remember him posting awhile back that his laptop was stolen and he was basically selling everything he could, doing lessons, and whatever else he could to get money (gofundme?). That's pretty shitty though about scamming people if true. Seems like everyone has been waiting forever for him to release an album too.


On the modern guitarist FB group. It took some digging and a few people got scammed, but they found him. Surprising, and a bummer, because he had a good future, it seemed.


----------



## Jonathan20022

What a shame, I wondered what happened to him.

Hopefully this doesn't turn into a Johnny Craig situation where people just forget about these actions with some new music being released


----------



## narad

Hollowway said:


> Not really sure where to put this, but I remember Sims Cashion being an endorser of Kiesel. Heads up if anyone sees him online and wants to buy from him. He set up an alias of “Kelsey Butler” and would post pictures of other people’s gear and then keep the money. Apparently they tracked it down, found out it was him, and now he’s (temporarily?) gone dark.



It's okay, looks like they got him:


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Hollowway said:


> Not really sure where to put this, but I remember Sims Cashion being an endorser of Kiesel. Heads up if anyone sees him online and wants to buy from him. He set up an alias of “Kelsey Butler” and would post pictures of other people’s gear and then keep the money. Apparently they tracked it down, found out it was him, and now he’s (temporarily?) gone dark.



One of the most promising and talented players who has killed his career now. What would push a guy like that to openly scam people in such a small community. I don’t get why he’d turn to crime and throw it all away. Someone pointed out that his content has dropped off a lot recently, he was hyping up an album a few years ago but there's been so little output from him. Such bizarre behaviour when he was about to drop his debut album. 

This isn't the first time either. He's been scamming people out of money the last year for guest spots and lessons which he hasn't fulfilled. Awful for anyone on the receiving end. At least a guy got his money back a few weeks ago who Sims tried to scam with a Kemper ad.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

I was talking to Chris. I didn't know they still offered the Solo 8. You have to pay it 100 percent up front with no refunds at all.


----------



## jco5055

Lorcan Ward said:


> One of the most promising and talented players who has killed his career now. What would push a guy like that to openly scam people in such a small community. I don’t get why he’d turn to crime and throw it all away. Someone pointed out that his content has dropped off a lot recently, he was hyping up an album a few years ago but there's been so little output from him. Such bizarre behaviour when he was about to drop his debut album.
> 
> This isn't the first time either. He's been scamming people out of money the last year for guest spots and lessons which he hasn't fulfilled. Awful for anyone on the receiving end. At least a guy got his money back a few weeks ago who Sims tried to scam with a Kemper ad.



Not that it excuses his actions, but I'd guess there's some mental health and/or substance abuse issues.


----------



## Seabeast2000

jco5055 said:


> Not that it excuses his actions, but I'd guess there's some mental health and/or substance abuse issues.



yep, dope FX was my first thought.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

jco5055 said:


> Not that it excuses his actions, but I'd guess there's some mental health and/or substance abuse issues.



something seriously wrong that would push him to do that. It’s starting to blow up on Facebook now.


----------



## MiPwnYew

Lorcan Ward said:


> something seriously wrong that would push him to do that. It’s starting to blow up on Facebook now.



I haven’t had FB in awhile, but it seemed like his IG went from posting guitar stuff regularly and talking about releasing his album soon to basically dropping off, posting random stories, selling a bunch of gear (or apparently scamming people) and only talking about “making beats” before all this happened. Seemed a little odd for sure.


----------



## spudmunkey




----------



## Hollowway

Ok, THAT is nice! Great woods and color.


----------



## mbardu

I gotta say that's not totally disgusting.


----------



## spudmunkey

Looks like black limba body and neck (get it while you can!), Ziricote board. On yesterday's live he showed off some beautiful ziricote un-milled planks. I've never seen them show ziricote in any quantity before, so i wonder if it's easier to get than pale moon and they are just looking to have another option available? I got Ziricote on my recent SH6, but I had to ask if they even had any, and they weren't sure.


----------



## xzacx

I’ve done a lot of hating on Kiesel but in the interest of fairness, I have to say that I was really impressed with the one I played today. Local GC had a used HSH DCM7 in stock and it played great and sounded really really good. I think that’s one of the best looking models they make too—it would have probably been tempting if it wasn’t basically the same price as a new one. I’d imagine it had some upgrades that made it more than the base price but nothing I’d care much about. It was easily the best Kiesel (or Carvin) I’ve tried though.


----------



## Mathemagician

I kinda want a simple 7string 27” neckthrough Aries. Just not sure if I’d love 27”, and also not sure how wide Kiesel necks are. I like ESP/EBMM string spacing but HATE ibanez spacing.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

Mathemagician said:


> I kinda want a simple 7string 27” neckthrough Aries. Just not sure if I’d love 27”, and also not sure how wide Kiesel necks are. I like ESP/EBMM string spacing but HATE ibanez spacing.


Want a DC700 with 27" scale? I can make you a good offer on one.


----------



## RevelGTR

spudmunkey said:


> View attachment 86849


Saber green looks amazing, does anyone know how much those finishes cost?


----------



## spudmunkey

RevelGTR said:


> Saber green looks amazing, does anyone know how much those finishes cost?



A couple weeks ago, it was free if you did a higher grade of wood top like their 5A or 7A....but now, I feel like they are...either $300 or $400, I think.


----------



## epsylon

Apologies if this subject has been beaten to death, but what is the deal with Kiesel custom orders? I have read some bad things about their customer service, and about how it's risky to order one if you are outside the US because somehow their return policy wouldn't apply or something like that.

For context, I'm in the market for a multiscale headless 8 (who isn't?) and I'm tempted to order a ZM8 with very simple options. Are there any risks of getting something that has playability issues? (Note: i don't care about unquantifiable stuff like "this guitar has no soul", but I care very much if "this 1800 USD guitar comes with poor setup / the nut needs to be replaced / the neck is warped / etc")
FWIW I'm in Canada.


----------



## spudmunkey

The main issues for international are that shipping is expensive. Whether it's to return it (you still get the 10-day trial) because shipping is expensive and you may have to fight to get your import duties/taxes etc. Back from your local governments. For warranty repair, I'm not sure if they cover international shipping both ways, so that could also be quite expensive.

So even if there are no customer service issues, anything that comes up can still be expensive.

That said, quality issues are rare, considering their direct model. There's no store/dealer to act as an additional filter. Compare Kiesel with what's been going on in the Abasi thread, and you see how many issues they have by also selling direct, and Kiesel issues are relatively rare in comparison.

Yeah, there have been a few shit shows over the years. The last 6 months or so have been really quiet in the "issues" front.


----------



## jarledge

epsylon said:


> Apologies if this subject has been beaten to death, but what is the deal with Kiesel custom orders? I have read some bad things about their customer service, and about how it's risky to order one if you are outside the US because somehow their return policy wouldn't apply or something like that.
> 
> For context, I'm in the market for a multiscale headless 8 (who isn't?) and I'm tempted to order a ZM8 with very simple options. Are there any risks of getting something that has playability issues? (Note: i don't care about unquantifiable stuff like "this guitar has no soul", but I care very much if "this 1800 USD guitar comes with poor setup / the nut needs to be replaced / the neck is warped / etc")
> FWIW I'm in Canada.



i have bought 5 new Kiesels, a delos 7 , an scbm8, 2x Zeus 8s and a vanquish 7x. I have never had a major issue with any of them. The delos 7 needed a bit of a truss rod adjustment but it spent the weekend in Phoenix before getting to me in El Paso and it was late July so it probably got really hot in transit. It wasn't unplayable out of the box either. When i say an adjustment, I mean like half a turn. 

international shipping is 75 US, I am not sure what sort of import fees you have for Canada. Spicy move would be to have it sent to a Fedex location on the US side of the boarder, have them hold it and you pick it up and not pay any import fees and the regular US shipping price. Not sure how close the border is for you though. 

As for a return if you didn't like it, I am not sure how that goes. 4 of my 5 were non-returnable either way so I never looked in to it if I needed to send one back because I didn't like it. Warranty work to my knowledge is covered by Kiesel. They issue you a pre paid label. 

I love mine, they are the best thing going in the price range.


----------



## epsylon

Thanks y'all, that's good to hear.


----------



## kisielk

spudmunkey said:


> Have you tried the lower strap button? I've read posts from a couple of people say they preferred it, but it tool a bit to get used to the guitar hanging differently, but that it also worked better for someone with a bit of a "belly".
> 
> A strap-attached wireless battery pack, filled with an adjustable amount of ball bearings, weighs, fishing sinkers, etc?
> 
> There were two products that don't seem to be availble any more, but maybe you could find them: Axe Balancer counterweight and Heads Up strap, which had a pocket for lead plates.
> 
> Also, DIY method using a belt loop style wireless pack.
> http://www.whoisjaylamm.com/2013/05...-for-neck-heavy-instruments-a-special-how-to/



I found the fix for the problem today!

First of all, I switched to a different kind of strap, which I actually bought for my new Vigier guitar but decided to try it on my HF2 first. It immediately made a difference. It's a tweed strap from Levy's: https://www.levysleathers.com/product/guitar-strap-mt8-wht/ and the fabric is a lot grippier than even the high friction neoprene padded strap I tried before, and definitely more than leather.

Secondly, I just made the strap super short, shorter than most of my other guitars. I don't know why but this made a huge difference in the balance as well, it's almost like the guitar is designed for it. It really changes the way the guitar is approached because the "default" midpoint becomes like the 16th or 17th fret this way, instead of the 12th like most guitars. It really encourages playing in the higher registers of the instrument and makes anything below the 5th fret seem like going kind of low. I guess this is the way it was designed to work, and it's definitely going to lend itself to different kinds of musical ideas than my other instruments.


----------



## kamello

Mathemagician said:


> I kinda want a simple 7string 27” neckthrough Aries. Just not sure if I’d love 27”, and also not sure how wide Kiesel necks are. I like ESP/EBMM string spacing but HATE ibanez spacing.



out of curiosity, isn't that a 1mm difference? (42mm to 43mm) I agree that Ibanez necks feel a tiny bit wider, but I wouldn't say it's a world apart


----------



## Mathemagician

kamello said:


> out of curiosity, isn't that a 1mm difference? (42mm to 43mm) I agree that Ibanez necks feel a tiny bit wider, but I wouldn't say it's a world apart



the width at the neck is 1mm but it gets worse towards the bridge and the wide string spacing does not help. Honestly a 6 from them feels bigger than from anyone else to me. It’s their thing but after owning a prestige RG I know it isn’t for me.


----------



## Avedas

epsylon said:


> Apologies if this subject has been beaten to death, but what is the deal with Kiesel custom orders? I have read some bad things about their customer service, and about how it's risky to order one if you are outside the US because somehow their return policy wouldn't apply or something like that.
> 
> For context, I'm in the market for a multiscale headless 8 (who isn't?) and I'm tempted to order a ZM8 with very simple options. Are there any risks of getting something that has playability issues? (Note: i don't care about unquantifiable stuff like "this guitar has no soul", but I care very much if "this 1800 USD guitar comes with poor setup / the nut needs to be replaced / the neck is warped / etc")
> FWIW I'm in Canada.


I've ordered 3 Kiesels to Japan. Quality is all great, no doubts there from me, especially as I really think they've stepped up their game this year.

I've never had to deal with returns so I'm not sure about that, and 2 of my guitars were non-returnable anyway. Shipping was $70 when I ordered, and I had to pay local import tax. However, Kiesel declares the base model price on the invoice rather than the final price with all your options, so it's not too unreasonable.

I remember Canadian duty and taxes being somewhat random, so YMMV.


----------



## Exit Existence

How's the Kiesel/Hipshot trems they are putting out recently? Every once in a while I see one that has goofed "pin" edges that don't make full contact with the posts, but I think that's hipshot's error. I assume since other high end brands are using them they have to be pretty decent.

I'm thinking about putting in a CT624, I own a PRS core Custom 24 and I was checking out Their CE/S2 Line for something more in the $1600-2000 ballpark but all their flame tops on those non-core models are very lackluster compared to the stuff Kiesel consistently puts out. I feel like for that price range I should give the CT624 a shot.


----------



## kisielk

I have two guitars with the headless tree, no problems at all.


----------



## Avedas

I have the Kiesel Hipshot Contour on my DC600. I like it slightly more than the Gotoh 510. Good stuff so far.


----------



## Albake21

Yeah the Kiesel/Hipshot trems are great. I actually much prefer the Kiesel version over the standard Hipshot. Very small changes, but big improvement.


----------



## spudmunkey

Albake21 said:


> Yeah the Kiesel/Hipshot trems are great. I actually much prefer the Kiesel version over the standard Hipshot. Very small changes, but big improvement.



One thing I am curious about:
Hipshot offers two trem arm thickness options. A 3/16 which comes on most, and a 1/4" which comes on the headless and "some" others. Do we know if Kiesel's arm is the same as this thicker Hipshot arm, in both girth and angle?


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> One thing I am curious about:
> Hipshot offers two trem arm thickness options. A 3/16 which comes on most, and a 1/4" which comes on the headless and "some" others. Do we know if Kiesel's arm is the same as this thicker Hipshot arm, in both girth and angle?


I don't have a Kiesel in my collection right now, but 1/4" definitely sounds pretty accurate. Not sure on the angle though. The one on my Aviator is the standard hipshot one and it's like playing with a tooth pick. I'm afraid it's going to bend or break just playing it.


----------



## spudmunkey

Albake21 said:


> I don't have a Kiesel in my collection right now, but 1/4" definitely sounds pretty accurate. Not sure on the angle though. The one on my Aviator is the standard hipshot one and it's like playing with a tooth pick. I'm afraid it's going to bend or break just playing it.



Hipshot's documentation is awful, too. Nowhere on their site to have have any indication about the trem arm set screw, or which arms come with the plastic tip.


----------



## lurè

Kinda liking the new model but i'm just waiting Jeff to chop off the headstock.


----------



## MrWulf

Carl Kolchak said:


> Want a DC700 with 27" scale? I can make you a good offer on one.



Go on....


----------



## RevelGTR

Has anyone picked up a neck through Aries? I’m typically a bolt on guy, but something different is appealing.


----------



## spudmunkey




----------



## Albake21

I think I might finally order a Vanquish. That's a pretty solid black friday deal.


----------



## mbardu

You think so?
I dont' know, those look pretty "meh" to me.
The "discounted" stuff is not even that discounted.

Should really have ordered that Leia during Labor Day instead (free finish upgrades, the 3-piece necks were free instead of 50$ off).

I guess they're still not short on new orders


----------



## MrWulf

What is Kiesel treated fingerboard?


----------



## kisielk

Stained / dyed fingerboard.. so you can have it blue, pink, watermelon, whatever awful looking combination you want.


----------



## MrWulf

I'll stick to natural then


----------



## Albake21

mbardu said:


> You think so?
> I dont' know, those look pretty "meh" to me.
> The "discounted" stuff is not even that discounted.
> 
> Should really have ordered that Leia during Labor Day instead (free finish upgrades, the 3-piece necks were free instead of 50$ off).
> 
> I guess they're still not short on new orders


Well it's only decent if you wanted those options. For me I've been wanting to get a Vanquish with a royal ebony board and a 3 piece neck so it works out for me. As for the discounts to the in stocks, those have always been terrible.


----------



## mbardu

Albake21 said:


> Well it's only decent if you wanted those options. For me I've been wanting to get a Vanquish with a royal ebony board and a 3 piece neck so it works out for me. As for the discounts to the in stocks, those have always been terrible.



Sounds like even for you the Labor Day sale would have been better.
Most of those were already offered, sometimes with steeper discounts (3-piece necks free instead of 50$ off).
But still better than nothing!


----------



## spudmunkey

The thing is, they are hitting record-breaking numbers every month, and have even expressed the possibility of a cut-off before year's end. They still have longer leadtimes than they would like, and aren't yet caught up, and this is while there's basically no racing season so Jeff's been around way more than he would normally be.

What I mean is, they don't even _have_ to have a sale _at all_. 

I do agree that there've been a few mega-sales in a row recently (president's day i think was a big one, the Delos run was a great one, etc)...and there is a build that I could come up with that could utilize a lot of these savings...but it's not what I want right now.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> The thing is, they are hitting record-breaking numbers every month, and have even expressed the possibility of a cut-off before year's end. They still have longer leadtimes than they would like, and aren't yet caught up, and this is while there's basically no racing season so Jeff's been around way more than he would normally be.
> 
> What I mean is, they don't even _have_ to have a sale _at all_.
> 
> I do agree that there've been a few mega-sales in a row recently (president's day i think was a big one, the Delos run was a great one, etc)...and there is a build that I could come up with that could utilize a lot of these savings...but it's not what I want right now.



Yeah that's why I mentioned this sales makes it clear they don't _need _new orders.
Last year in comparison was something else for sure! I probably saved more than 700$ on that one.


----------



## Mathemagician

Thought I’d check and maybe BF would be a better deal that Halloween looks like not this year. And honestly it’s probably not likely going forward given their sustained order book. They’re able to hawk upgrades as they know the base # of orders is > capacity.


----------



## Avedas

Decent Black Friday sale, although I definitely don't need another guitar now lol



RevelGTR said:


> Has anyone picked up a neck through Aries? I’m typically a bolt on guy, but something different is appealing.


Yeah, I have a multiscale 7. It's pretty spicy.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

As time goes on the Kiesel deals will probably be on a decline. It seems like they get enough regular orders. If you want a good deal on one, don’t sleep on it. That said this BF offer doesn’t really tick too many boxes off what I would like to order. So I’ll just bide my time.


----------



## RevelGTR

This actually hits a couple options I’ve been wanting in a headless bolt on build, planning to order this with Chris on Monday. 
View media item 3552


----------



## Jeff

What’s a saber finish?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Jeff said:


> What’s a saber finish?



I think that's referring to the new "Saber Green" color or something.

I honestly don't see much of a difference. Considering its Kiesel it's probably some term they invented. 

EDIT: So keeping with the Star Wars theme these are supposed to be based on "Light Sabers".


----------



## bigcupholder

Jeff said:


> What’s a saber finish?


I think I read that it's a stain instead of a translucent paint. Their regular "deep" colors involve first a dark stain that's sanded back to highlight the figuring, then a translucent paint. Saber and candy finishes are a stain with one color, sanded back and then another stain, if I understood correctly.

Basically they're brighter.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

bigcupholder said:


> I think I read that it's a stain instead of a translucent paint. Their regular "deep" colors involve first a dark stain that's sanded back to highlight the figuring, then a translucent paint. Saber and candy finishes are a stain with one color, sanded back and then another stain, if I understood correctly.
> 
> Basically they're brighter.


candy finishes are translucent paints. They just spray them over bare wood most of the time.


----------



## mbardu

And I understood a mix of both. As in a stain, or a couple of rounds of stain, but not of the single 'dark gray' they typically use for DTS finishes, but with darker translucent shades of the target final color instead, then sanded back, then trans painted.

Looks like there are many interpretations 

At the end of the day they look pretty neat though. And certainly seem to have less of the drawbacks of their other "deep" translucent finishes.
Not sure if 300$ neat, but better IMO.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

Kiesel offers so many options it’s very easy to get confused by them. You basically have to search the specific paint option and determine which you like.


----------



## spudmunkey

KnightBrolaire said:


> candy finishes are translucent paints. They just spray them over bare wood most of the time.



Are you using "candy" like an industry standard term, or specifically Kiesel's "Candy" finishes? I have a Kiesel with their Candy Aqua, and it's definitely NOT a transparent paint.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> Are you using "candy" like an industry standard term, or specifically Kiesel's "Candy" finishes? I have a Kiesel with their Candy Aqua, and it's definitely NOT a transparent paint.



Ugh, can Kiesel not just use industry standard terms? 

That said, "candy" paint itself is transparent, it's typically sprayed over an opaque base to give a depth of color unique to the process.

For instance a silver base with candy blue over it will have a different appearance than say blue over gold or white.

It's an old hot rod term that likened the look and process to candied apples (hence Candy Apple Red).


----------



## spudmunkey

I think Kiesel used "Semi-chrome" for something like that: a transparent paint, sprayed over a metallic silver.


----------



## spudmunkey

By "industry standard", I meant like "car finish industry standards, not necessarily guitar finishes. It's Pelham Blue (or some Fender blue) like a candy finish, but candy isn't in it's name...


I THINK the Saber is two colors of stains/dyes/pigments whatever you want to call them, with some sanding between the colors so that there are dark and light "stripes", making it look like a lights amber, which is light in the middle, with color around the outside.

I think their Candy is like their normal DTS process, but the final color is also a dye/pigment and not a paint. I know it's not a paint because I have the finish on burled maple, and there are places in the eyes/burls where the color didn't soak in.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> I think Kiesel used "Semi-chrome" for something like that: a transparent paint, sprayed over a metallic silver.



That's pretty much the "candy" process which is what the term more or less refers to, the specific layering of the finishes to reproduce a certain look. 



spudmunkey said:


> By "industry standard", I meant like "car finish industry standards, not necessarily guitar finishes. It's Pelham Blue (or some Fender blue) like a candy finish, but candy isn't in it's name...
> 
> 
> I THINK the Saber is two colors of stains/dyes/pigments whatever you want to call them, with some sanding between the colors so that there are dark and light "stripes", making it look like a lights amber, which is light in the middle, with color around the outside.
> 
> I think their Candy is like their normal DTS process, but the final color is also a dye/pigment and not a paint. I know it's not a paint because I have the finish on burled maple, and there are places in the eyes/burls where the color didn't soak in.



The word "candy" in the context of finish work refers more to process and outcome more than a specific shade or hue. 

So that's where the confusion is I guess: are they doing a candy finish, or is it a specific name like "Candy Blue?"


----------



## strangers

New kiesel arrived last night. Very happy with it so far, will probably do a bigger ngd post once I've played it a little more. 

A few thoughts: 

The Beryllium bridge sounds much better than the Lithium in my K-Series. I don't really mind how bright the Lithium's are, but I'm really liking these.
Kiesel/Hipshot bridge is very good, not sure if I prefer it to OFR, but certainly like it more than PRS and EBMM's bridges.
The body is huge. I have a lot of smaller body guitars, and it's a little weird at first playing this.
No issues with the guitar, great experience buying, but a much longer than anticipated wait, although they warned me this might happen with Jeff being involved in the build.













Signal-2020-11-15-115950



__ strangers
__ Nov 15, 2020


















Signal-2020-11-15-115958



__ strangers
__ Nov 15, 2020


















Signal-2020-11-15-115829 (1)



__ strangers
__ Nov 15, 2020


















Signal-2020-11-15-120051



__ strangers
__ Nov 15, 2020


----------



## Seabeast2000

Noice


----------



## kuma

I believe the 'Candy' finishes were so named because they were meant to look like a translucent piece of candy, like a Jolly Rancher or something. I agree it was a poor choice seeing as there is already a common finish process that's nothing like it as y'all have pointed out. I'm pretty sure Jeff has refused to elaborate on exactly how they do those finishes, though if I had to guess it looks like their DTS process but done with a couple different colors rather than black.


----------



## Exit Existence

Correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that Kiesel's "candy" finishes are all done via dyes applied by hand, with the only the clear coat being sprayed.
This is how PRS does most of their really nice finishes, all the colors are applied via wood dyes and stains. This process really makes the grain pop the most as it gets deep into the wood. I don't believe Jeff does any sprayed finishes himself, so when he's talking about candy finishes applied by him they are all dyed tops.

Regular "deep" translucent finishes are done by them dying the figured top with a dark stain, then they sand the majority of it away with the top still retaining some of that dye to give it extra depth, and finally the color is applied via spray.


Unrelated, I was about to put in a build for a CT6 this week but a really great deal on a killer mint condition Carvin one with almost the exact same specs popped up.....so I have that coming instead! Sunset burst quilt top with black back and sides, should be a beauty!


----------



## mbardu

strangers said:


> New kiesel arrived last night. Very happy with it so far, will probably do a bigger ngd post once I've played it a little more.
> 
> A few thoughts:
> 
> The Beryllium bridge sounds much better than the Lithium in my K-Series. I don't really mind how bright the Lithium's are, but I'm really liking these.
> Kiesel/Hipshot bridge is very good, not sure if I prefer it to OFR, but certainly like it more than PRS and EBMM's bridges.
> The body is huge. I have a lot of smaller body guitars, and it's a little weird at first playing this.
> No issues with the guitar, great experience buying, but a much longer than anticipated wait, although they warned me this might happen with Jeff being involved in the build.



One more positive for the Beryllium. Very very nice pickup from Kiesel, better than many branded third parties. One that I'd consider as a great option to put in other guitars (alongside only a few other ones such as the Carvin M22SD or their holdsworth neck pickups). And yeah, their bolt-ons (Vanquish aside) are not small guitars. They can easily get in chonky boi territory

Happy NGD


----------



## bigcupholder

mbardu said:


> One more positive for the Beryllium. Very very nice pickup from Kiesel, better than many branded third parties. One that I'd consider as a great option to put in other guitars (alongside only a few other ones such as the Carvin M22SD or their holdsworth neck pickups). And yeah, their bolt-ons (Vanquish aside) are not small guitars. They can easily get in chonky boi territory
> 
> Happy NGD


You mention the Holdsworth neck pickup, but have you tried the Holdsworth bridge? If so, how does it compare to the beryllium? 

I swapped the lithiums out of my one Kiesel pretty quickly, so I'm thinking of going with the Holdsworth pickups for an upcoming order.


----------



## mbardu

bigcupholder said:


> You mention the Holdsworth neck pickup, but have you tried the Holdsworth bridge? If so, how does it compare to the beryllium?
> 
> I swapped the lithiums out of my one Kiesel pretty quickly, so I'm thinking of going with the Holdsworth pickups for an upcoming order.



Only had the Carvin version in a couple of Holdsworth signature gutiars, but that was long ago, and the guitars themselves were particular in terms of construction, so I don't have a great point of comparison there, sorry.
The combo that worked best for me with Carvin was M22 bridge / Holdsworth neck- and I think moving forward with Kiesel it's going to be Berylium+Holdsworth.


----------



## sylcfh

Why doesn't somebody just take a Dean Baby ML and make it headless and be done with it?


----------



## jarledge

as others said, they call them candy finishes because they are suppose to look like literal hard candy.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

jarledge said:


> as others said, they call them candy finishes because they are suppose to look like literal hard candy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 87220



The irony being that's the same origin story for traditional "candy" finishes: they got the name because they looked like candy.


----------



## Hoss632

bigcupholder said:


> You mention the Holdsworth neck pickup, but have you tried the Holdsworth bridge? If so, how does it compare to the beryllium?
> 
> I swapped the lithiums out of my one Kiesel pretty quickly, so I'm thinking of going with the Holdsworth pickups for an upcoming order.


Holdsworth bridge pick up is REALLY nice. I've heard it do anything from jazz like ambient cleans to heavy modern metal on a 7 string. Very versatile pick up. If you go on youtube Kiesel has a video of all of their 6 string pick ups and they demo them from clean to high gain and lead tones.


----------



## Supernaut

I've got a Holdsworth set in my Vader K6. It's a nice bridge for sure, it's not crazy hot but still has quite a bit of power. 

I don't have any other Kiesel pickups to compare first hand - but from my experience it's a lot less "voiced" than the others. I'd say it's fairly balanced EQ wise but has a little bit of spank to it as well.


----------



## lurè

I have a VM8 with lithiums and a VM7 with Holdsworths. 

The holdsworths are less thight than the lithiums and more balanced overall; they're more similar to the classic paf sound but are very versatile and can cover a lot of genres.
The bridge pickup might not be the tightest pickup ever but with some eq is 100% suitable for modern metal.

Lithiums are way too high passed for my liking, I prefer the rounder and more balanced holdsworths.


----------



## Exit Existence

Scored an awesome deal on a Carvin Ct6, deep sunset burst quilt with Duncan Pearly Gates pickups. It's in like flawless condition and sounds and plays amazing. Incredible instrument.


----------



## Amenthea

You could swim in that top. Congrats OP, lovely score.


----------



## Exit Existence

Thanks man! Before I found the guy selling this I was going to spec out the exact same guitar with just the only change being the headstock shape and it was would have been over $1,100 more expensive than I paid for this this (with stock kiesel pickups) lol Lucked out!


----------



## spudmunkey

I miss the old gold logo. The newer one is more of like a metallic gold decal material, and less of a "badge" like this.


----------



## spudmunkey

New Cyber Monday deals:

Free:
- Birdseye maple fretboard upgrade
- Chambered body upgrade (with the purchase of at top)
- 10, 12, 14 or 20" radius fretboard options (on applicable models)
- Black hardware
- Tung oil neck finish

Discounted (most are available online):
- Walnut neck: $50 (normally $100, i think)
- Acoustic saddles/piezo: $75 (normally $200)
- Antique Ash Treatment: $50 (normally $100)
- Flamed Maple top: $125 (normally $250)
- Burled Maple Top: $300 (normally at least $400)

Call-in discounts:
- On a K-series, free upgrade to quilted maple or flamed koa
- Splatter finishes: $200 (normally at least $300, I think).
- Color treated fingerboards: $200 (normally $200-500, including fades, bursts)
- With purchase of master grade flamed or quilted maple, free Candy or Saber finishes.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> New Cyber Monday deals:
> 
> Free:
> - Birdseye maple fretboard upgrade
> - Chambered body upgrade (with the purchase of at top)
> - 10, 12, 14 or 20" radius fretboard options (on applicable models)
> - Black hardware
> - Tung oil neck finish
> 
> Discounted (most are available online):
> - Walnut neck: $50 (normally $100, i think)
> - Acoustic saddles/piezo: $75 (normally $200)
> - Antique Ash Treatment: $50 (normally $100)
> - Flamed Maple top: $125 (normally $250)
> - Burled Maple Top: $300 (normally at least $400)
> 
> Call-in discounts:
> - On a K-series, free upgrade to quilted maple or flamed koa
> - Splatter finishes: $200 (normally at least $300, I think).
> - Color treated fingerboards: $200 (normally $200-500, including fades, bursts)
> - With purchase of master grade flamed or quilted maple, free Candy or Saber finishes.



_Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in..._


----------



## RevelGTR

mbardu said:


> _Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in..._


Yeah this has me considering a chambered JB4 fretless with black hardware.


----------



## spudmunkey

RevelGTR said:


> Yeah this has me considering a chambered JB4 fretless with black hardware.



You know, it wasn't until I saw them side-by-side that I realized how much I prefer Kiesel's more modern outline on the JB4/5, compared to the "real deal" Jazz bass. The Fender just has a more..."retro" vibe to it that I don't care for. It also why I'm often more drawn to strat alternatives, vs the real thing.


----------



## RevelGTR

spudmunkey said:


> You know, it wasn't until I saw them side-by-side that I realized how much I prefer Kiesel's more modern outline on the JB4/5, compared to the "real deal" Jazz bass. The Fender just has a more..."retro" vibe to it that I don't care for. It also why I'm often more drawn to strat alternatives, vs the real thing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 87551


Well I have to say I think a vintage Jazz Bass is the most beautiful bass design of all time  But the JB is a beautiful modern take, and also the only place I can get a mahogany body, claro walnut top, chambered body, walnut neck etc etc. fretless Jazz.


----------



## mbardu

Thanos bass is best bass, you can @ me


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> Thanos bass is best bass, you can @ me


I got to molest one at NAMM, and it did indeed feel great. The ONLY thing that bugs me are the tuners overhanging the end of the body. I know it means unfettered access, and I know I'd never put it down in a way that would effect that, but...yeah.


----------



## spudmunkey

David Davidson, bassist from August Burns Red, now has a signature model, based on the Kiesel Thanos headless JB-style bass, the DD4.

DD4 KIESEL DUSTIN DAVIDSON SIGNATURE HEADLESS ELECTRIC BASS | KieselGuitars.com

$1899

Walnut body (only), walnut neck (with other neck options), poplar burled top the thin "raw tone satin" clear body finish, matte black pickguard, a couple of fretboard options, and RNC (rear natural clear) included.


----------



## RevelGTR

spudmunkey said:


> David Davidson, bassist from August Burns Red, now has a signature model, based on the Kiesel Thanos headless JB-style bass, the DD4.
> 
> DD4 KIESEL DUSTIN DAVIDSON SIGNATURE HEADLESS ELECTRIC BASS | KieselGuitars.com
> 
> $1899
> 
> Walnut body (only), walnut neck (with other neck options), poplar burled top the thin "raw tone satin" clear body finish, matte black pickguard, a couple of fretboard options, and RNC (rear natural clear) included.
> 
> View attachment 87771


The dude seems super excited and I’m definitely happy for him! I do wonder about these signature models that are more or less just a limited option version of an existing model with maybe one unique option and a hideous optional inlay. I can’t imagine they’re big sellers. I definitely want a Thanos though!


----------



## spudmunkey

Ack, it's Dustin Davidson...not David. *facepalm*


----------



## spudmunkey

RevelGTR said:


> The dude seems super excited and I’m definitely happy for him! I do wonder about these signature models that are more or less just a limited option version of an existing model with maybe one unique option and a hideous optional inlay. I can’t imagine they’re big sellers. I definitely want a Thanos though!



Yeah, they are all pretty niche. The Andy James is about the only one I think we see pretty regularly. It's just a Crescent model with a tiiiiiny bit more of the front/edge of the body shaved off in the lower horn cutout area. The Johnny Hiland pops up now and again, but I wonder how much of those would just be Solo model sales if people knew that Kiesel acquired the "recipe" and rights to make Johnny's pickups, and can be had on their other models?

Actually the Will Swan models pops up pretty regularly, too.

The thing is, a lot of these models are cheaper than their standard models with similar specs. So there's actually some incentive to get the signature models.

For example: The Will Swan model is $2129 with a case. A similar spec'd CS6 is $230 more (once you add the black gloss back and sides, mahogany/maple 5-piece neck, the "traditional" paddle-style headstock, the darker ebony fretboard, acrylic inlays, the non-standard fretboard radius, brushed metal pickup covers, 2v/2t control config, 2-color silver logo, and assuming a $100 finish {but I honestly have no idea how much the Will Swan finish options cost compared to the normal transparent finishes}). And it's worth repeating, those large artist inlays are optional. They are included in the price, but every one of them, you can opt out (except for I think the FG2, which always comes with Frank's logo on the 1st fret).


----------



## RevelGTR

spudmunkey said:


> Yeah, they are all pretty niche. The Andy James is about the only one I think we see pretty regularly. It's just a Crescent model with a tiiiiiny bit more of the front/edge of the body shaved off in the lower horn cutout area. The Johnny Hiland pops up now and again, but I wonder how much of those would just be Solo model sales if people knew that Kiesel acquired the "recipe" and rights to make Johnny's pickups, and can be had on their other models?
> 
> Actually the Will Swan models pops up pretty regularly, too.
> 
> The thing is, a lot of these models are cheaper than their standard models with similar specs. So there's actually some incentive to get the signature models.
> 
> For example: The Will Swan model is $2129 with a case. A similar spec'd CS6 is $230 more (once you add the black gloss back and sides, mahogany/maple 5-piece neck, the "traditional" paddle-style headstock, the darker ebony fretboard, acrylic inlays, the non-standard fretboard radius, brushed metal pickup covers, 2v/2t control config, 2-color silver logo, and assuming a $100 finish {but I honestly have no idea how much the Will Swan finish options cost compared to the normal transparent finishes}). And it's worth repeating, those large artist inlays are optional. They are included in the price, but every one of them, you can opt out (except for I think the FG2, which always comes with Frank's logo on the 1st fret).


For sure, and I can’t imagine they’d do it if it didn’t make financial sense. It probably costs them almost nothing develop one. 

Random side note, I was on the Carvin forum in 2009 when I was ~14 and I’m 99% sure you gave me some advice on an Ultra V build.


----------



## spudmunkey

RevelGTR said:


> Random side note, I was on the Carvin forum in 2009 when I was ~14 and I’m 99% sure you gave me some advice on an Ultra V build.


Could be! I ordered and got my black flamed CS6 in 2008.


----------



## spudmunkey

As of the start of the year:
Most models went up by about $50
They removed the up-charge to add the Vader-style bevels on the DC line, and the SCB-style bevels on the Solo).
No more Bigsby tremolo option
DC127 retired (and with it, their last 25" scale double-cut neck-through, but the scale is still available on several models...just no double-cuts)
The remaining LB bass models retired (the 6-string was retired last year, and they hinted that it was basically one customer who's made it worth their while to still keep offering the LB...but it didn't make the cut this year).

For a visual reference of the optional bevels on the DC line:
Standard DC600 squared-off body edge:








Optional DC600 with optional bevels:










Solo model:

S6 with Standard Body edges:














S6 with the optional bevel:


----------



## Avedas

Dammit I paid for those bevels


----------



## bracky

Unbevelable...


----------



## Hollowway

The only one I don’t want them to discontinue yet is the 7 string bass (ZM7, I think). I want one at some point. It’s a cool niche instrument.


----------



## kisielk

Hollowway said:


> The only one I don’t want them to discontinue yet is the 7 string bass (ZM7, I think). I want one at some point. It’s a cool niche instrument.


ZBM7, it's a beast! ZM7 is the multiscale guitar


----------



## Hollowway

kisielk said:


> ZBM7, it's a beast! ZM7 is the multiscale guitar


Yes, that’s the one! One of the cooler kiesel instruments, just because it has 7 strings. I wish it had a longer scale, but I still want one.


----------



## T00DEEPBLUE




----------



## kisielk

Yikes, where's that photo from?


----------



## ResistentialAssultSquadron

What year is that Kiesel?


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Ouch! This seems to be happening more and more.


----------



## ResistentialAssultSquadron

T00DEEPBLUE said:


>



Those type of fractures are usually caused by inserting screws/bolts without drilling a route beforehand. Pressure cracks. I ask what year the build is because Kiesel has greatly improved their QC in general over the past year. That's not me buying into hype, but totally based on my Kiesel guitars from 2015 to current. I think Kiesel make great guitars, extremely playability and great quality...I'm sure Kiesel will assist you with any issues with your guitar if you reach out to them with your concerns...especially when it concerns the fitness of the materials used.


----------



## spudmunkey

According to the original post, it's a 2018, and Mike from Kiesel said it looks like a warranty issue, and the owner should contact them.


----------



## ResistentialAssultSquadron

spudmunkey said:


> According to the original post, it's a 2018, and Mike from Kiesel said it looks like a warranty issue, and the owner should contact them.



Agreed.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Any hopes for new models? Wouldn't mind a Hyperdrive 8 or maybe a Delos 8


----------



## ResistentialAssultSquadron

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Any hopes for new models? Wouldn't mind a Hyperdrive 8 or maybe a Delos 8



New model(s) would be cool...but, I'd rather see cost reduction on some options instead, which they've done this year!


----------



## jarledge

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Any hopes for new models? Wouldn't mind a Hyperdrive 8 or maybe a Delos 8



Maybe an 8 string delos, but Jeff said they made an 8 string hyperdrive and it was too neck heavy so they aren't going to offer one. My answer to that is make the 8 string headless. 

as for the headless neck cracks, Kiesel has already addressed that by drilling inserts then gluing those inserts in and using bolts to hold the end piece. That change took place at least a year ago.


----------



## spudmunkey

jarledge said:


> Maybe an 8 string delos, but Jeff said they made an 8 string hyperdrive and it was too neck heavy so they aren't going to offer one. My answer to that is make the 8 string headless.
> 
> as for the headless neck cracks, Kiesel has already addressed that by drilling inserts then gluing those inserts in and using bolts to hold the end piece. That change took place at least a year ago.



Unfortunately, there was also at least 2 (I believe it was at least 2...might have been one) cases of cracking _with _those inserts.


----------



## kisielk

it seems like a bit of a design flaw with the headpiece. The screw holes are not positioned in a way to maximize the distance to the edges


----------



## jarledge

spudmunkey said:


> Unfortunately, there was also at least 2 (I believe it was at least 2...might have been one) cases of cracking _with _those inserts.



You may be referring to the thin roasted necks that had cracks. You can't order thin roasted maple necks anymore and that is a recent change.


----------



## spudmunkey

jarledge said:


> You may be referring to the thin roasted necks that had cracks. You can't order thin roasted maple necks anymore and that is a recent change.



No, I'm not:


----------



## rabidwolverine214

spudmunkey said:


> No, I'm not:
> View attachment 88976



These pics are terrifying, one for the headless kiesel with thinner neck profile I already own, and two for the new build, that until now I was moments away from placing.


----------



## jarledge

spudmunkey said:


> No, I'm not:
> View attachment 88976



that one took damage by falling or being hit because the fretboard after the nut is also chipped on the f# side.


----------



## spudmunkey

jarledge said:


> that one took damage by falling or being hit because the fretboard after the nut is also chipped on the f# side.


While that's certainly a highly likely possibility, that little piece of end grain could easily have been cracked off if the head piece was tilted forward when the neck wood cracked.


----------



## ResistentialAssultSquadron

spudmunkey said:


> No, I'm not:
> View attachment 88976



That's a bummer...on the other hand, that fb looks badass.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

A Delos 8 would be so cool


----------



## Hollowway

Huh. I have a Vader, so now I’m wondering if I should pop off the end so and see what it looks like. Or is that just being paranoid?


----------



## kisielk

Hollowway said:


> Huh. I have a Vader, so now I’m wondering if I should pop off the end so and see what it looks like. Or is that just being paranoid?


I've got an HH2 and a Z8X ... just gonna leave those end caps on there, what I don't know can't hurt


----------



## ResistentialAssultSquadron

kisielk said:


> I've got an HH2 and a Z8X ... just gonna leave those end caps on there, what I don't know can't hurt



Same...thank you Schrodinger!


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> Huh. I have a Vader, so now I’m wondering if I should pop off the end so and see what it looks like. Or is that just being paranoid?



Well, it's one of their top-selling models, and it's been availble for 6+ years. Still seems like it's a relatively rare occurrence. I always worry about unscrewing and re-screwing into wood for something load-bearing...but I tend to over-worry about things like that...


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Those things are probably subjected to at least 70-80 lbs with a six string and 25.5" scale length using 9-42 strings. Gotta be even more for 7 strings and higher gauges. Not a lot of wood there to really keep the screws and truss rod from cracking the neck.


----------



## rabidwolverine214

I wonder if they sealed the end-grain with something more durable than tung oil, if it would help reduce these issues. Seems like having that exposed end-grain which doesn’t seem to be much more than rough sanded after the cut and lightly finished, and then drilling into it for the head piece and only having that little bit of wood underneath the truss rod really combine to cause this problem.


----------



## trem licking

I need to quit looking in hidden parts of guitars too... (I won't haha) Many have returned that otherwise looked fine. Potential for lots of hidden damage that may or may not be a problem


----------



## bigcupholder

spudmunkey said:


> Well, it's one of their top-selling models, and it's been availble for 6+ years. Still seems like it's a relatively rare occurrence. I always worry about unscrewing and re-screwing into wood for something load-bearing...but I tend to over-worry about things like that...


I'd also worry about over tightening the screws putting it back on and creating a problem that wasn't there before. I'm going to leave mine alone and hope for the best. 

Not to sound like a Kiesel apologist either, but if it's otherwise stable, I'm not sure it's worth worrying about too much. It'd almost definitely affect my decision to place an order if I didn't already have one, but a few cases on the internet won't make me lose sleep over a guitar I already have


----------



## MaxOfMetal

The neck crack thing has been litigated to death in the "bad Kiesel" thread, but I see no negative outcome to checking your guitar while the possible problem isn't an actual problem yet. 

A few minutes and a dab of wood glue can save you from heartache down the road, or better yet, let Kiesel know so they can both fix your guitar and hopefully prevent this from happening to new builds.


----------



## T00DEEPBLUE

Does a cracked screw thread do this?


----------



## Seabeast2000




----------



## spudmunkey

Seabeast2000 said:


>


Ha, just watched that movie this morning.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

spudmunkey said:


> Ha, just watched that movie this morning.


 Such a bad movie. Top ten for sure.


----------



## spudmunkey

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> Such a bad movie. Top ten for sure.



Only do-able thanks to RiffTrax.


----------



## ResistentialAssultSquadron

T00DEEPBLUE said:


> Does a cracked screw thread do this?



No, that's delamination...humidity, dramatic change in temperature, bad glue/lack of sufficient coverage, impact trauma, etc. are all valid considerations. Even something as weird and unusual as trauma cause by resonance on a sympathetic frequency can cause integrity issues and structural failure on a bond. I have to say, seeing the pic and considering things logically, it looks like laminates split due to excessive pressure from the truss rod. Whether it was an issue from the factory, a previous user, a bad tech job, or user error, I dunno. I'll also point out that the inch or two down from the headpiece in the separation looks to be a forced angle up/out on the maple center stripe, which is more likely caused by force (torque, pressure) or impact, which is also likely caused by user error or impact.


----------



## T00DEEPBLUE

William DeWolfe said:


> No, that's delamination..


I'm well aware. It was a rhetorical question.


----------



## gunch

Keep kicking around a cm6 build in my head can you get a crescent with the new pointed angled headstock yet


----------



## ResistentialAssultSquadron

gunch said:


> Keep kicking around a cm6 build in my head can you get a crescent with the new pointed angled headstock yet



Call the guys


----------



## Hollowway

So a hyperdrive 8, huh? Curious to see the proportions


----------



## spudmunkey

Double the counterweights, though...that existing weight is 1.3lbs. I'm not sure how much weight it's displacing, but means that the 8-string will automatically be probably 1lb heavier than the 7-string, not even including the wider/heavier neck and fretboard wood and extra tuner, in the name of balance. You can take them out, and you can even order the guitar without the added weights and no cavity...but sheesh...not sure about that one. The weight is also not as far-out on the point, so it'll have much less of an impact.

Granted, this is a "prototype" and maybe their supplier can provide a low-volume production of a single, larger weight for a final production design...but, still.

Always happy to see their 8-string pointy headstock, though. It's not seen very often.


----------



## ResistentialAssultSquadron

spudmunkey said:


> Double the counterweights, though...that existing weight is 1.3lbs. I'm not sure how much weight it's displacing, but means that the 8-string will automatically be probably 1lb heavier than the 7-string, not even including the wider/heavier neck and fretboard wood and extra tuner, in the name of balance. You can take them out, and you can even order the guitar without the added weights and no cavity...but sheesh...not sure about that one. The weight is also not as far-out on the point, so it'll have much less of an impact.
> 
> Always happy to see their 8-string pointy headstock, though. It's not seen very often.
> 
> View attachment 89461
> 
> View attachment 89462



Holy beans!! That's a hit record!


----------



## Hollowway

Yeah, agreed. I wasn’t thrilled with the counter weight in the first place, much less two of them. But I’d LOVE an inline 8 HS! But I’d prefer the hyperdrive be headless, and let me put that badass HS on an Aries or something.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, agreed. I wasn’t thrilled with the counter weight in the first place, much less two of them. But I’d LOVE an inline 8 HS! But I’d prefer the hyperdrive be headless, and let me put that badass HS on an Aries or something.



You just missed an in-stock less than a week ago.


----------



## Esp Griffyn

"Only seen one 3 other models!"

Wow, what a selling point...


----------



## olejason

Seeing them hype up the "k logo" never fails to amuse me. Do they really think that's a big selling point for people?


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

olejason said:


> Seeing them hype up the "k logo" never fails to amuse me. Do they really think that's a big selling point for people?


But, it’s a k. That’s capitalized.


----------



## bigcupholder

I did enjoy reading the comments on that Facebook post. Most of their posts get disturbingly overly positive responses, so this really stood out. 90% are "wtf is that" or "can you reverse it?"


----------



## BigViolin

When you can't tell if it's a meme or actual advertising copy.


----------



## mitou

It looks like somebody made a mini guitar out of a Washburn Dime neck. I can't unsee it now.


----------



## olejason

You might be on to something here


----------



## spudmunkey

olejason said:


> Seeing them hype up the "k logo" never fails to amuse me. Do they really think that's a big selling point for people?



It would be for people who don't want to pay the $500 charge to not have the "Kiesel" name on it.


----------



## Snarpaasi

olejason said:


> You might be on to something here
> 
> View attachment 89559



This is gold.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> You just missed an in-stock less than a week ago.



Damn. This made me just walked into my room and look at my DC800 (with the 4x4 HS) and shake my head at it like a disappointed father.


----------



## Supernaut

Is it like that to stop neck dive?


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

I WOULD ORDER HYPERDRIVE 8. NEED FOR MY TRIP TO THE MOON.


caps sorry guys. Been on the GME game too much


----------



## mbardu

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> I WOULD ORDER HYPERDRIVE 8. NEED FOR MY TRIP TO THE MOON.
> 
> 
> caps sorry guys. Been on the GME game too much



https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/the-gme-gamestonk-thread.345958/

And if you've been long for a while, I'm sure you can afford to make _quite a few_ Hyperdrive 8s.


----------



## Seabeast2000

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> I WOULD ORDER HYPERDRIVE 8. NEED FOR MY TRIP TO THE MOON.
> 
> 
> caps sorry guys. Been on the GME game too much


Bkabbermouth.net:

RETROSPECTIVE WORLDWIDE ACQUIRES ENTIRE MUSIC MANUFACTURING INDUSTRY IN CASH OFFER. SUPER LUTHIER TEAM ASSEMBLED AT SECRETIVE MOUNTAINTOP FACILITY. DEVELOPING.......


----------



## Frostbite

Esp Griffyn said:


> "Only seen one 3 other models!"
> 
> Wow, what a selling point...
> 
> View attachment 89544


Jeff rips the fattest ass into a chair and then rams his face into said chair and breaths DEEP


----------



## jco5055

maybe dumb question, but I know it's been said that Kiesel is fine/at least understandable to get a build from them if you keep the standard options to stay at like $2k or below. But is there someone out there that's doing Kiesel better than Kiesel (meaning at that price point)? Balaguer I assume?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

jco5055 said:


> maybe dumb question, but I know it's been said that Kiesel is fine/at least understandable to get a build from them if you keep the standard options to stay at like $2k or below. But is there someone out there that's doing Kiesel better than Kiesel (meaning at that price point)? Balaguer I assume?



Not that I'm aware of. 

Balaguer is promising, but you only have a fraction of the options and you're paying almost the same price for MIK vs. USA...if that matters to someone. 

Depending on what you're looking for there are tons of small builders out there with similar pricing and availability, but it's usually for more standard offerings, like Strat/Tele clones. Not to mention the added risk.


----------



## kisielk

As someone whose initials are "KK" I'd be totally into a guitar that just has the K logo, then get the K fretboard inlay  Unfortunately I hate that body shape! 

My last name is also Kisiel which is pretty close to Kiesel so people already ask me about whether the guitars are custom made for me


----------



## spudmunkey

New Jason Becker model, designed by Jason.


----------



## SymmetricScars




----------



## spudmunkey

Wow...a lot of cool specs. Yin yang inlays, 24.75" scale, and a new "M__SD" bridge pickup. (an M12 vesion of the M22SD, I imagine?)

Mahogany body, flamed roasted maple fretboard, Floyd, Jumbo stainless frets, the same neck as the JN24.

Design was by Jason, as a tribute to Clapton's Blackie.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Wow...a lot of cool specs. Yin yang inlays, 24.75" scale, and a new "M__SD" bridge pickup. (an M12 vesion of the M22SD, I imagine?)
> 
> Mahogany body, flamed roasted maple fretboard, Floyd, Jumbo stainless frets, the same neck as the JN24.
> 
> Design was by Jason, as a tribute to Clapton's Blackie.



*24.75" scale* 

Hopefully we can get that on other bolt-ons now that the feature is there.

Interestingly, there are 0 options you can do differently on this guitar, yet they still have you walk through all the pages of the builder if you try to order one


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> *24.75" scale*
> 
> Hopefully we can get that on other bolt-ons now that the feature is there.
> 
> Interestingly, there are 0 options you can do differently on this guitar, yet they still have you walk through all the pages of the builder if you try to order one



Yeah, their website isn't very dynamic (by any definition of the term).


----------



## technomancer

Would have preferred black hardware, but that is pretty damn cool 

EDIT: what would have been even cooler would have been having a bunch of them in stock for the launch... I can understand not doing that for new models where there are a bunch of order options, but for sigs you would thing they'd have some ready to go...


----------



## spudmunkey

technomancer said:


> Would have preferred black hardware, but that is pretty damn cool
> 
> EDIT: what would have been even cooler would have been having a bunch of them in stock for the launch... I can understand not doing that for new models where there are a bunch of order options, but for sigs you would thing they'd have some ready to go...



Agreed. They added 5 JB200C and JB24 builds about 2 weeks ago, and they are all gone. There should never be no JB24 or JB200C builds in the GIS. I wish they would have done the same thing with their Kits when they offered them. Would have loved to have seen 1 or 2 kits ready-to-ship.

Their launches are getting better organized with other aspects: well-produced reveal video, social media blasts on all channels, and a Q&A (or at least a more in-depth live video 2 hours later)....but there are still clearly bugs in their process...


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Agreed. They added 5 JB200C and JB24 builds about 2 weeks ago, and they are all gone. There should never be no JB24 or JB200C builds in the GIS. I wish they would have done the same thing with their Kits when they offered them. Would have loved to have seen 1 or 2 kits ready-to-ship.
> 
> Their launches are getting better organized with other aspects: well-produced reveal video, social media blasts on all channels, and a Q&A (or at least a more in-depth live video 2 hours later)....but there are still clearly bugs in their process...
> View attachment 90006



Wow the fan is quite subtle, I didn't even notice it was multiscale 

Agreed on the "in-stock" comments too. They're likely missing a few impulse purchases as we speak.


----------



## spudmunkey

FWIW, the builder let's you select right or left-handed, and soft or hard case. 

And for some reason, it let's you UN-check 24.75" scale length, and the thinner neck option... ha! No idea what you'll get if you un-check, though. 9.375" scale and Wheat Thins neck?


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> FWIW, the builder let's you select right or left-handed, and soft or hard case.
> 
> And for some reason, it let's you UN-check 24.75" scale length, and the thinner neck option... ha! No idea what you'll get if you un-check, though. 9.375" scale and Wheat Thins neck?



No idea? It sound fairly clear and logical to me.

If you unselect "thinner neck" (the neck that is included by default, and the only neck offered on the guitar), then obviously you don't want a neck. They just send you a loaded guitar body. So it makes sense that they let you unselect the scale length too, since at this point it's basically "N/A". Makes sense, no?


----------



## NoodleFace

I usually love everything Kiesel puts out but I am not in love with this guitar. I much prefer bluey and numbers. But Jason Becker is a treasure, so I support anything he does.


----------



## mbardu

Just to confirm, they're not planning to do other bolt-on 24.75 as of now.

It's a shame, that would be a great option. The Vanquish is already so cute and compact, the smaller scale would be perfect.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, agreed. I wasn’t thrilled with the counter weight in the first place, much less two of them. But I’d LOVE an inline 8 HS! But I’d prefer the hyperdrive be headless, and let me put that badass HS on an Aries or something.



Added to the in-stock today:
https://www.kieselguitars.com/guitars-in-stock/152204


----------



## olejason

Anyone ever asked if they'd do the pointy headstock on a bass? Seems like the kind of thing they'd give a hard no towards but it would look pretty sweet.


----------



## kisielk

spudmunkey said:


> Added to the in-stock today:
> https://www.kieselguitars.com/guitars-in-stock/152204
> View attachment 90104


Damn, I'm full up on 8-strings and I don't even really play metal, but that is a sick guitar


----------



## odibrom

... once one gets used to straight string pull, all other designs look goofy on the head stock...


----------



## spudmunkey

olejason said:


> Anyone ever asked if they'd do the pointy headstock on a bass? Seems like the kind of thing they'd give a hard no towards but it would look pretty sweet.



I'm sure it'd just take the right artist to want one. It's how we got the 7 (Mark Okubo) and 8 (Dean Lamb) string versions of this headstock.


----------



## spudmunkey

The bummer about purpleheart being such a prominent feature, is that it'll fade over time to a sort of...brownie batter brown, without very interesting grain...


----------



## technomancer

Seriously I give up on this company... finally pull the trigger on an in stock and this happens 

"I’m sorry to tell you the in-stock guitar you ordered was sold prior to you placing the order. I hadn’t been pulled from the website quickly enough. If there is another in-stock guitar you are interested in, or if you would like for us to custom build a Z6 with the same options we can do that. If you would like a refund we can do that as well. Please let me know what you would like for us to do. I’m very sorry for the inconvenience."

(although if they pop up a bunch of those new Becker models in stock I might try again)


----------



## MaxOfMetal

technomancer said:


> (although if they pop up a bunch of those new Becker models in stock I might try again)



They just need to add a Becker option across the model range. Guitars and basses. 

But sadly, Jeff Kiesel is just too goddamn afraid to. That's right Jeff, you're a fucking coward for not allowing for multicolor pickups and numbers on everything. You're just too afraid of being that cool. Pansy.


----------



## gunshow86de

Yeah, if he had any integrity he'd let me order a 7 string Leia with the "Numbers" options. He's probably too chicken for that though.


----------



## mbardu

Richlite fretboards


----------



## gunshow86de

So they intentionally made the Richlite look like that?


----------



## mbardu

gunshow86de said:


> So they intentionally made the Richlite look like that?



Yes it looks like Richlite does a bunch of variations now.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

gunshow86de said:


> So they intentionally made the Richlite look like that?


They prob bought the multilam versions of richlite where they use 2 different colors of paper.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> The bummer about purpleheart being such a prominent feature, is that it'll fade over time to a sort of...brownie batter brown, without very interesting grain...



The only reason that guitar still sits in stock is because of that. I know that I'll wind up with a poo brown board in 5-6 years, and I'm not doing that. But I'm super tempted to spec one out. 

The string pull is bumming me out, like @odibrom mentioned, but I made it through most of my life loving Jackson inlines, so I can look the other way one more time. But there are so many options for cool stuff I'd like now. The headless Aristides multi 8 with trem, Joe Balaguer's new SS shape with 8 strings and Floyd, and now this. I'm gonna need to get some more scratchers to raise funds.


----------



## Mathemagician

gunshow86de said:


> So they intentionally made the Richlite look like that?



Let’s take a FB material that can be jet black evenly, except make it look ass.


----------



## lurè

Is that an option 50 or a future standard spec?


----------



## spudmunkey

Not sure. This is their 2nd build, but the first one was done specifically for a skateboarder with a Richlite sponsorship.

One small challenge is that the fretboard needs to be epoxied on, not wood glued...but that's about the only difference, AFAIK.


----------



## technomancer

Ok this is hilarious... on a current in-stock Osiris

*RMN* - Roasted Maple Neck
*THNN* - Thinner Neck Profile (*not available with Roasted Neck options*)

Oh and trying to buy an in-stock one more time. There's a decent bare-bones all black Leia. My only concern is the walnut neck, but we'll see how it sounds.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

technomancer said:


> Ok this is hilarious... on a current in-stock Osiris
> 
> *RMN* - Roasted Maple Neck
> *THNN* - Thinner Neck Profile (*not available with Roasted Neck options*)



Oh shit, somebody divided by zero.


----------



## technomancer

MaxOfMetal said:


> Oh shit, somebody divided by zero.


----------



## groverj3

technomancer said:


> Ok this is hilarious... on a current in-stock Osiris
> 
> *RMN* - Roasted Maple Neck
> *THNN* - Thinner Neck Profile (*not available with Roasted Neck options*)
> 
> Oh and trying to buy an in-stock one more time. There's a decent bare-bones all black Leia. My only concern is the walnut neck, but we'll see how it sounds.


Just wait for Jeff to deny your warranty when it twists or some such nonsense and then call *you* an asshole in a live stream.


----------



## technomancer

groverj3 said:


> Just wait for Jeff to deny your warranty when it twists or some such nonsense and then call *you* an asshole in a live stream.



Not me, I would not buy one of those guitars with those specs. I got a nice simple Leia


----------



## spudmunkey

technomancer said:


> Ok this is hilarious... on a current in-stock Osiris
> 
> *RMN* - Roasted Maple Neck
> *THNN* - Thinner Neck Profile (*not available with Roasted Neck options*)
> 
> Oh and trying to buy an in-stock one more time. There's a decent bare-bones all black Leia. My only concern is the walnut neck, but we'll see how it sounds.



Was probably built before they pulled back that option. It's hilarious how the "raw tone" finish still says it can only be done on ash, but you can get it on anything if you want. It'll say "RNC is available only with a top wood", but that's not true on quite a few models. Hell, their "anniversary" flamed maple headstock, as it still shows up in certain places, was I think for the 50th anniversary...they are 75 now!


----------



## bigcupholder

I got the email today that my build is done. 11 weeks so it's ahead of schedule!


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Hollowway said:


> The only reason that guitar still sits in stock is because of that. I know that I'll wind up with a poo brown board in 5-6 years, and I'm not doing that. But I'm super tempted to spec one out.
> 
> The string pull is bumming me out, like @odibrom mentioned, but I made it through most of my life loving Jackson inlines, so I can look the other way one more time. But there are so many options for cool stuff I'd like now. The headless Aristides multi 8 with trem, Joe Balaguer's new SS shape with 8 strings and Floyd, and now this. I'm gonna need to get some more scratchers to raise funds.


Or sell me that one hum aristides you got


----------



## Avedas

My 7 has the raw tone on a maple top with ash body. Also has a one piece tung oiled walnut neck which is super nice. They gave me a killer piece that has some flame in it too.


----------



## technomancer

So apparently I actually got this one... assuming it works out short-term headless GAS satisfied 

It will also let me hear the new Holdsworth pickups, which is something I've wanted to do for a while.

View media item 3689


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

technomancer said:


> So apparently I actually got this one... assuming it works out short-term headless GAS satisfied
> 
> It will also let me hear the new Holdsworth pickups, which is something I've wanted to do for a while.
> 
> View media item 3689


If the pickups are the same as what they used in the models with a headstock, you’ll enjoy them. What was the price on this one? The Leia and the Vader are my favorite headless models.


----------



## technomancer

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> If the pickups are the same as what they used in the models with a headstock, you’ll enjoy them. What was the price on this one? The Leia and the Vader are my favorite headless models.



My understanding is like everything else Jeff redesigned them. I had one of the older H2s and loved how it sounded with the old pickups so hoping they didn't screw them up... they were literally the only Kiesel / Carvin pickups I actually like vs just being "ok" at best


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

technomancer said:


> My understanding is like everything else Jeff redesigned them. I had one of the older H2s and loved how it sounded with the old pickups so hoping they didn't screw them up... they were literally the only Kiesel / Carvin pickups I actually like vs just being "ok" at best


Jeff’s gonna Jeff. Yeah I really liked the old Holdsy pickups. Some of the first low output pickups that I enjoyed. Give us a report once you get it!


----------



## technomancer

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> Jeff’s gonna Jeff. Yeah I really liked the old Holdsy pickups. Some of the first low output pickups that I enjoyed. Give us a report once you get it!



Will do... I'm curious to see how the guitar is and how it balances with that walnut neck. I wanted to get a compact headless and it was either Kiesel or Strandberg since I don't want to spend $3k+ for something I won't play all the time. This was more appealing than a $2k+ Indonesian guitar with basically a $1k markup because it says "Strandberg" and was actually available.


----------



## bigcupholder

technomancer said:


> Will do... I'm curious to see how the guitar is and how it balances with that walnut neck. I wanted to get a compact headless and it was either Kiesel or Strandberg since I don't want to spend $3k+ for something I won't play all the time. This was more appealing than a $2k+ Indonesian guitar with basically a $1k markup because it says "Strandberg" and was actually available.


I have a Vader and haven't played a Leia, but I'm sure it'll balance fine. Walnut is basically the same weight as maple. Removing the headstock makes such a huge difference I'd guess that you'd have to make a neck out of something crazy to get it neck heavy. The locking headpiece is also much lighter and closer to the body than tuners would be. If you're used to heavier guitars, it'll feel like it's floating on a strap.

I find my Vader unbalanced in a different way: because it's so light and the tummy cut on the back is so large, any pressure from my forearm on the top of the guitar will easily rotate it so it's facing up instead of forwards, which puts my left wrist in an awkward spot. This happens even after switching to the bottom strap button, so I've had to learn to not rest my arm on the guitar so much. Maybe all those years playing an SG left me clamping the guitar with my forearm.

Congrats on the new guitar. Please post your thoughts when you get it! That was one of the more tempting in-stocks I've seen in awhile. I wish they did more basic builds like that.

I also have the Holdsworth pickups incoming on my new guitar. They sounded pretty great in their pickup shootout on YouTube.


----------



## kisielk

technomancer said:


> So apparently I actually got this one... assuming it works out short-term headless GAS satisfied
> 
> It will also let me hear the new Holdsworth pickups, which is something I've wanted to do for a while.
> 
> View media item 3689


That looks awesome. I wish the Leia was around when I ordered my HH2X, I would have gone with that instead. Seems like it's pretty similar just more ergonomic.


----------



## spudmunkey

kisielk said:


> That looks awesome. I wish the Leia was around when I ordered my HH2X, I would have gone with that instead. Seems like it's pretty similar just more ergonomic.



The body itself is about the same size overall, but comparing the strap button locations, the Leia would be shifted slightly to a right-handed player's right. With the belly cut and the forearm contour, though, it seems like it'd feel thinner.

Here's an overlay gif (sorry, I messed it up and it doesn't loop...)
https://imgur.com/uHYSfz9


----------



## kisielk

Yeah, I guess my thought is that size-wise they are pretty similar and I'm sure despite the construction differences the sound wouldn't be too dissimilar either. Also the HH2X has the tuners exposed in the cutout which sucks if you've got the trem set up for total free floating and you bump it into something


----------



## Hollowway

technomancer said:


> So apparently I actually got this one... assuming it works out short-term headless GAS satisfied
> 
> It will also let me hear the new Holdsworth pickups, which is something I've wanted to do for a while.
> 
> View media item 3689



Is it chambered? One thing I like about the chambered Kiesel headless models is they weigh practically nothing. They're disturbingly light weight (in a good way) and they can get away with it because of the lack of headstock weight. (Don't get me started on the Hyperdrive weight cylinder. )


----------



## technomancer

Hollowway said:


> Is it chambered? One thing I like about the chambered Kiesel headless models is they weigh practically nothing. They're disturbingly light weight (in a good way) and they can get away with it because of the lack of headstock weight. (Don't get me started on the Hyperdrive weight cylinder. )



Kiesel won't chamber the Leia, so nope


----------



## spudmunkey

technomancer said:


> Kiesel won't chamber the Leia, so nope



This. Unlike the Holdsworth, with this model's forearm contour, the belly cut, the upper bout switch location, needing "meat" under the bridge, and then the pickup and control cavities, there's not a whole bunch left. Not enough that they thought it would be worth to offering it as an option. Since it takes more CNC time/effort, it would cost money, and they didn't think the difference was worth charging for.


----------



## Hollowway

Well, sounds like the Leia is pretty lightweight as it is, then. Which is good!


----------



## danbox

Man I am GASing hard for an AM7 kind of like this guy 

Need to look around to see if anyone has added some transparent color to this kind of finish. Thinking about pink or turquoise, but also just the antique ash by itself is nice.


----------



## bigcupholder

danbox said:


> Man I am GASing hard for an AM7 kind of like this guy
> 
> Need to look around to see if anyone has added some transparent color to this kind of finish. Thinking about pink or turquoise, but also just the antique ash by itself is nice.



There's tons of pictures of translucent colours over the antique ash. Google "kiesel translucent antique ash" or look through the photos on their website or Facebook. Aqua seems really popular over antique ash, but you'll find pics of pink and teal too.


----------



## spudmunkey

I've got red over AAT, with a one-piece ash body. Pics at the end of this video:


----------



## bigcupholder

Kiesel just nonchalantly posted these. I guess it's not a huge surprise that they could put p90s in a CS, but it's cool to see. It's odd they didn't have a big reveal for the headless hyperdrive though.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

I kind of like the headless hyperdrive. Works better as a headless shape imo


----------



## kisielk

Makes way more sense than the regular one IMO


----------



## mbardu

bigcupholder said:


> Kiesel just nonchalantly posted these. I guess it's not a huge surprise that they could put p90s in a CS, but it's cool to see. It's odd they didn't have a big reveal for the headless hyperdrive though.



Nice.


----------



## bigcupholder

They deleted the Facebook post with the hyperdrive. So I guess they realized they jumped the gun there. Probably will be revealed tonight.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

bigcupholder said:


> Kiesel just nonchalantly posted these. I guess it's not a huge surprise that they could put p90s in a CS, but it's cool to see. It's odd they didn't have a big reveal for the headless hyperdrive though.


That is a tasty looking LP!! Hyperdrive looks much more tolerable and less like Gumby as a headless.


----------



## spudmunkey

bigcupholder said:


> Kiesel just nonchalantly posted these. I guess it's not a huge surprise that they could put p90s in a CS, but it's cool to see.



It took so long is that their neck tenon extends to the far end of their neck pickup route. A P90 is narrower, so that means they'd have to change the programming of the neck tenon and pocket by just that little bit to accommodate. P90s seem to be getting a bit of a renaissance, so it must have just finally been enough requests for it. It's only on some models, though, and you still have to send in your own pickups, as they don't make their own P90s yet...

...unless, like the headless Hyperdrive, this photo was meant to showcase some new in-house P90 pickups.


----------



## technomancer

I actually kind of like the Hyperdrive as a headless...


----------



## MaxOfMetal

technomancer said:


> I actually kind of like the Hyperdrive as a headless...


----------



## spudmunkey

The CS3/CS6 (their Les Paul style model, posted in light blue abvove) is now available as 24.75" (the standard is 25").


----------



## spudmunkey

Comparison of the two Hyperdrives (assuming the headless will be the Headless Hyperdrive, using the same naming convention as the Delos/Headless Delos).


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Comparison of the two Hyperdrives (assuming the headless will be the Headless Hyperdrive, using the same naming convention as the Delos/Headless Delos).
> 
> View attachment 90312



Much better. Thanks for the nice gifs as usual.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> The CS3/CS6 (their Les Paul style model, posted in light blue abvove) is now available as 24.75" (the standard is 25").



Just need to allow that on bolt ons for that sweet sweet vanquish.


----------



## Avedas

I'm not much of an LP fan but it's nice to see they got someone with a sense of aesthetics to put that one together.


----------



## lurè

I love the type X but the headless hyperdrive is just perfect.


----------



## MrWulf

The Hyperdrive looked like a deformed Explorer so obviously it looked better as a headless.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Hm I wonder if an 8 string version will be done in the headless. I’d love to get a crackle green single hum bucket model


----------



## RevelGTR

technomancer said:


> So apparently I actually got this one... assuming it works out short-term headless GAS satisfied
> 
> It will also let me hear the new Holdsworth pickups, which is something I've wanted to do for a while.
> 
> View media item 3689


Did you get this yet? If so, any thoughts?


----------



## technomancer

RevelGTR said:


> Did you get this yet? If so, any thoughts?



Got it yesterday. Haven't had a lot of time to play but quick thoughts:
1) the idea that these can't be chambered and the long list of reasons is complete garbage. A more likely answer is "the CNC programming would be slightly more complicated so we skipped it for now". I would expect this to be something that becomes available if the model sells well.
2) overall the design is comfortable, guitar itself plays pretty well but is on the heavy side for something this small at 6lbs
3) the Holdsworth pickups are decent, from what I remember I liked the old ones better. Again from what I remember I would say these are like the Lithiums with slightly less output and top end. Again my comparisons here are to stuff I had years ago so take it with a grain of salt. I don't feel the need to immediately swap them out 
4) ebony board isn't the greatest from a coloration standpoint but this doesn't have the "less color variation" option so I can't really complain

Overall a solid guitar for what I paid for it, no complaints in the brief time I had to mess with it. I'll hopefully get some more play time with it tonight. I also want to do some cleaning to it as while the guitar was spotless there looks like there is some polishing compound in the edge of the neck finish so I want to see if that cleans up.


----------



## diagrammatiks

technomancer said:


> Got it yesterday. Haven't had a lot of time to play but quick thoughts:
> 1) the idea that these can't be chambered and the long list of reasons is complete garbage. A more likely answer is "the CNC programming would be slightly more complicated so we skipped it for now". I would expect this to be something that becomes available if the model sells well.
> 2) overall the design is comfortable, guitar itself plays pretty well but is on the heavy side for something this small at 6lbs
> 3) the Holdsworth pickups are decent, from what I remember I liked the old ones better. Again from what I remember I would say these are like the Lithiums with slightly less output and top end. Again my comparisons here are to stuff I had years ago so take it with a grain of salt. I don't feel the need to immediately swap them out
> 4) ebony board isn't the greatest from a coloration standpoint but this doesn't have the "less color variation" option so I can't really complain
> 
> Overall a solid guitar for what I paid for it, no complaints in the brief time I had to mess with it. I'll hopefully get some more play time with it tonight. I also want to do some cleaning to it as while the guitar was spotless there looks like there is some polishing compound in the edge of the neck finish so I want to see if that cleans up.



whenever kiesel says something can't be done it really means we can't be bothered.

of course that guitar can be chambered. there's so much wood there.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

technomancer said:


> Got it yesterday. Haven't had a lot of time to play but quick thoughts:
> 1) the idea that these can't be chambered and the long list of reasons is complete garbage. A more likely answer is "the CNC programming would be slightly more complicated so we skipped it for now". I would expect this to be something that becomes available if the model sells well.
> 2) overall the design is comfortable, guitar itself plays pretty well but is on the heavy side for something this small at 6lbs
> 3) the Holdsworth pickups are decent, from what I remember I liked the old ones better. Again from what I remember I would say these are like the Lithiums with slightly less output and top end. Again my comparisons here are to stuff I had years ago so take it with a grain of salt. I don't feel the need to immediately swap them out
> 4) ebony board isn't the greatest from a coloration standpoint but this doesn't have the "less color variation" option so I can't really complain
> 
> Overall a solid guitar for what I paid for it, no complaints in the brief time I had to mess with it. I'll hopefully get some more play time with it tonight. I also want to do some cleaning to it as while the guitar was spotless there looks like there is some polishing compound in the edge of the neck finish so I want to see if that cleans up.


I’ve been interested in this model can you post some pictures?


----------



## soliloquy

diagrammatiks said:


> whenever kiesel says something can't be done it really means we can't be bothered.
> 
> of course that guitar can be chambered. there's so much wood there.



from a sales point, id side with technomancer. BACK in the Carvin days, i really wanted a single cut with 24 frets. At that time, the CS series only came with 22 frets. I asked, called, begged to inquire about getting a 24 fret version, and they said that 'we have absolutely no plans to make a 24 fret version of that guitar'. So i placed the order. got the guitar 6 weeks later. 7 weeks after i placed the order, they announced the CS#24 guitars. 

I dont agree with the way they handle their public inquiries. However, if, as a company, they tell their audience that 'wait, dont buy anything just yet, we are going to make better shit' why would anyone buy their current stuff, unless their current stuff is what they REALLY want. 

I would prefer them saying 'we dont have definitive plans yet, however, it is something we have discussed in the past.' that would keep the doors open and one hoping, rather than order and regretting moments later.


----------



## technomancer

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> I’ve been interested in this model can you post some pictures?



Yep I will, might take me a couple days though. I've barely had time to play it much less photograph it


----------



## spudmunkey

technomancer said:


> Got it yesterday. Haven't had a lot of time to play but quick thoughts:
> 1) the idea that these can't be chambered and the long list of reasons is complete garbage. A more likely answer is "the CNC programming would be slightly more complicated so we skipped it for now". I would expect this to be something that becomes available if the model sells well.



For what it's worth, they didn't say the Leia *can't* be chambered, just that the small amount they COULD chamber wouldn't make a large enough difference to charge money for it, and chose not to offer it. 

Here's that Leia, and I've highlighted all of the areas that either can't be chambered, or where there already are.

There are already two control cavities
There are already two pickup routes
you need some solid wood under the bridge
The body is quite thin where the belly cut and the forearm contour meet
Chambering is only available when you have a top (for obvious reasons). That tops needs at least a perimeter around the instrument, and around any cutouts like pickups and near the neck (I think).In my image below, I also actually think I've under-scaled the perimeter they want to retain for gluing down the top in my 'shop below.
The forearm contour needs enough surface area for the glue to hold down the bent wood forearm contour. On previous models with a forearm contour, they didn't chamber here. I don't know if the reason is their their production build process, or experience with long term/warranty issues)

Their chambering adds cost, if for no other reason it takes up more time on their CNC machines. Knowing that there's not a WHOLE lot of area left to chamber, that the chamber would only be a partial-depth because you'd lose the full thickness of the top wood and also however much they need/want to retain on the back for strength...

Even on a full-size model, they say their chambering only reduces weight by either .4 lb or 4 oz (I don't remember which, but it was "4" something...). This headless model doesn't have that whole open solid area behind the bridge like a non-headless model does, so you're left with saving...what...2 oz? (or .2lbs)? What they've said is that their chambering cost would have to be about the same as other models, but they didn't think anyone would (or should) pay for such small-amount of a difference.


----------



## technomancer

You can type as much as you want, your argument that the majority of the left side area you have highlighted can't be chambered is not correct unless Kiesel's CNC guys are incompetent. 

The belly cut and arm contour are both small and could definitely be chambered, so basically the only thing on the left side that couldn't be is where the top carve is around the top edge and the switch.


----------



## mbardu

technomancer said:


> You can type as much as you want, your argument that the majority of the left side area you have highlighted can't be chambered is not correct unless Kiesel's CNC guys are incompetent. Glad you enjoy typing though.



Maybe it can't, maybe it can.
But is it worth it just to shave off a couple hundred grams at best and potentially have disappointed customers who would expect a drastic reduction in weight?


----------



## technomancer

Have they posted how they are chambering stuff? I'm curious as decent chambering should drop more weight than that. Sort of makes me wonder if their "chambering" is 2 or 3 forsner bit plunges under the top.


----------



## spudmunkey

technomancer said:


> You can type as much as you want, your argument that the majority of the left side area you have highlighted can't be chambered is not correct unless Kiesel's CNC guys are incompetent.



They have decades of specific experiene servicing warranty issues due to delamination at forearm contours. They redesigned the Contour c66 model years ago to have a less pronounced forearm contour, because over time they would sometimes lyft. Chambering under these areas, reduces that surface area, so I can imagine they are probably a bit gun shy about removing material from that area.

They haven't shown photos of their chambering since the Sb4001/5001, SH275 and HH2 launch days, but even back then, they weren't super invasive.

Here is the HH2 (a flat top. It's been revised since, but not by a huge amount)




Here is their old SH275:




Here was their old SB4001, which did uave a forearm contour:



Their philosophy seems to definitely to keep the instrument quite solid, still, and leaving lots of surface area wherever there needs to be glue or screws. And again, these chambers, once a top is put on. Is probably only about 1" deep, at most.


How much does a bare guitar body this size weigh? Probably...maybe 3lbs at most? Knowing that approx the top and bottom 1/2 thicknesses would remain unchanged, at least 1/2 perimeter would remain unchanged, and any cavity already there and the solid area under the bridge would remain...that's not a huge difference left to remove, and still be able to make it worthwhile _enough_ (the reason they've said they don't offer it).

Not that they can't, or even wouldn't for a price...just that it didn't seem worth it.


----------



## RevelGTR

technomancer said:


> Got it yesterday. Haven't had a lot of time to play but quick thoughts:
> 1) the idea that these can't be chambered and the long list of reasons is complete garbage. A more likely answer is "the CNC programming would be slightly more complicated so we skipped it for now". I would expect this to be something that becomes available if the model sells well.
> 2) overall the design is comfortable, guitar itself plays pretty well but is on the heavy side for something this small at 6lbs
> 3) the Holdsworth pickups are decent, from what I remember I liked the old ones better. Again from what I remember I would say these are like the Lithiums with slightly less output and top end. Again my comparisons here are to stuff I had years ago so take it with a grain of salt. I don't feel the need to immediately swap them out
> 4) ebony board isn't the greatest from a coloration standpoint but this doesn't have the "less color variation" option so I can't really complain
> 
> Overall a solid guitar for what I paid for it, no complaints in the brief time I had to mess with it. I'll hopefully get some more play time with it tonight. I also want to do some cleaning to it as while the guitar was spotless there looks like there is some polishing compound in the edge of the neck finish so I want to see if that cleans up.


So if I’m not misinterpreting you it sounds like so far good, but not great?


----------



## technomancer

RevelGTR said:


> So if I’m not misinterpreting you it sounds like so far good, but not great?



Nah digging it so far. Given indonesian Jacksons are apparently $1800 I can't complain  Wish I had more time to play, work is kicking my ass.


----------



## spudmunkey

New "jawbreaker" finishes.

$800, includes 3 solid finishes, and "tons of hand labor"

Finish can't continue up the neck.

Concept by Casey (their paint guy) and Albert, their long-time head tech.


----------



## RevelGTR

It’s... interesting. I’m not the target audience though, my favorite colors are their pearls and metallics.


----------



## technomancer

So 3 color layers then rub randomly with belt sander and clear?


----------



## spudmunkey

technomancer said:


> So 3 color layers then rub randomly with belt sander and clear?


Probably an RO sander, but knowing how glass-smooth their splatter and crackle finishes are, there's also extra work building up the clear finish thickness to keep it level. But if it takes 8x as long as a metallic finish, it'll cost 8x as much.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

oh shit, me want headless hyperdrive 7 in jawbreaker


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> New "jawbreaker" finishes.
> 
> $800, includes 3 solid finishes, and "tons of hand labor"
> 
> Finish can't continue up the neck.
> 
> Concept by Casey (their paint guy) and Albert, their long-time head tech.
> View attachment 90654
> 
> View attachment 90660
> 
> View attachment 90659
> 
> View attachment 90658


We really are just heading back to the 90s in all things aesthetic, and I'm not even just talking guitars. Getting older is weird...


----------



## RevelGTR

KnightBrolaire said:


> oh shit, me want headless hyperdrive 7 in jawbreaker


This would be so ugly it would be awesome


----------



## Avedas

I see they've prepared their nominee for the 2021 Ugliest Guitar Award.


----------



## diagrammatiks

spudmunkey said:


> They have decades of specific experiene servicing warranty issues due to delamination at forearm contours. They redesigned the Contour c66 model years ago to have a less pronounced forearm contour, because over time they would sometimes lyft. Chambering under these areas, reduces that surface area, so I can imagine they are probably a bit gun shy about removing material from that area.
> 
> They haven't shown photos of their chambering since the Sb4001/5001, SH275 and HH2 launch days, but even back then, they weren't super invasive.
> 
> Here is the HH2 (a flat top. It's been revised since, but not by a huge amount)
> View attachment 90638
> 
> 
> 
> Here is their old SH275:
> View attachment 90639
> 
> 
> 
> Here was their old SB4001, which did uave a forearm contour:
> View attachment 90640
> 
> 
> Their philosophy seems to definitely to keep the instrument quite solid, still, and leaving lots of surface area wherever there needs to be glue or screws. And again, these chambers, once a top is put on. Is probably only about 1" deep, at most.
> 
> 
> How much does a bare guitar body this size weigh? Probably...maybe 3lbs at most? Knowing that approx the top and bottom 1/2 thicknesses would remain unchanged, at least 1/2 perimeter would remain unchanged, and any cavity already there and the solid area under the bridge would remain...that's not a huge difference left to remove, and still be able to make it worthwhile _enough_ (the reason they've said they don't offer it).
> 
> Not that they can't, or even wouldn't for a price...just that it didn't seem worth it.



It's not just about weight. It's more of a why not thing.

fwiw anderson has no problem fully chambering their drop top models with the super sloped forearm contour.

more importantly why won't they make me a multiscale leia.


----------



## Hollowway

So it’s basically the Vernon Reid guitar. Definitely ‘80s vibe. I have a love hate relationship with Carvin/Kiesel (in that I love Carvin and hate Jeff Kiesel ) and paying $800 for this finish falls well under the “hate” heading.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> So it’s basically the Vernon Reid guitar. Definitely ‘80s vibe. I have a love hate relationship with Carvin/Kiesel (in that I love Carvin and hate Jeff Kiesel ) and paying $800 for this finish falls well under the “hate” heading.



Yeah, I'd never pay that much for it. A one-color metallic finish is $100. This is ~3x as much paint, with dry time between each coat, plus the hand sanding the layering (no matter how much time it takes, it takes time), then layering-up the clear coat for a flat finish. So I "get" it. But...it still wouldn't buy it. 

If it were 1/2 price on a run? Maaaaybe. It would have to be something less "playfull". Something like black, primer grey and an orange, or something.


----------



## spudmunkey

diagrammatiks said:


> fwiw anderson has no problem fully chambering their drop top models with the super sloped forearm contour.



Yeah, I've seen photos of how they do it. They route kerf cuts on the under-side of he top to get it to bend easier. That also increases cost because it's a whole full machining step they currently don't do except for their semi-hollow carved-top models (carving on the "back" of the top, i mean). I feel like that would cost even more than chambering would, since the chambering just leaves the guitar in the machine longer when the body is already being carved from that direction, while this is a whole additional machining step.


----------



## narad

spudmunkey said:


> New "jawbreaker" finishes.
> 
> $800, includes 3 solid finishes, and "tons of hand labor"
> 
> Finish can't continue up the neck.
> 
> Concept by Casey (their paint guy) and Albert, their long-time head tech.



Concept: like James Tyler, but worse.


----------



## diagrammatiks

spudmunkey said:


> Yeah, I've seen photos of how they do it. They route kerf cuts on the under-side of he top to get it to bend easier. That also increases cost because it's a whole full machining step they currently don't do except for their semi-hollow carved-top models (carving on the "back" of the top, i mean). I feel like that would cost even more than chambering would, since the chambering just leaves the guitar in the machine longer when the body is already being carved from that direction, while this is a whole additional machining step.



when you buy a kiesel that's the same price as an anderson is it because they spent more time doing hardwork making it better

nah.

just jawbreaker finishes.


----------



## spudmunkey

diagrammatiks said:


> when you buy a kiesel that's the same price as an anderson is it because they spent more time doing hardwork making it better
> 
> nah.
> 
> just jawbreaker finishes.



Genuine question...don't Andersons's START at 2x the starting price of a Kiesel? They'd *better* be better.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> Genuine question...don't Andersons's START at 2x the starting price of a Kiesel? They'd *better* be better.



Depends on model, but closer to 50% than 100% more, speaking of the Strats. It's fairly easy to keep Andersons around $2500, with options. Just as it's fairly easy to get a Kiesel in that ballpark without going absolutely crazy. 

But, no one is really cross shopping Anderson and Kiesel, except maybe rhetorically in a "vs." thread on forums.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

I know it's more professionally done than my botched rattle can finishes, but it looks so cheap. (emphasis on "looks.")

I get it takes time to do it properly, and that determines cost, but it really does just look like a crappy failed finish. I suppose it's a matter of taste, much like relic jobs, but I personally think the rainbow splatter looks cooler and more like a jawbreaker than this finish.

I don't mind it costing so much since I wouldn't take that finish at a discount. To each their own, of course, but it's a hard pass for me.


----------



## Millul

spudmunkey said:


> Yeah, I've seen photos of how they do it. They route kerf cuts on the under-side of he top to get it to bend easier. That also increases cost because it's a whole full machining step they currently don't do except for their semi-hollow carved-top models (carving on the "back" of the top, i mean). I feel like that would cost even more than chambering would, since the chambering just leaves the guitar in the machine longer when the body is already being carved from that direction, while this is a whole additional machining step.



Cool that you found those pics from Accordo.it! i remember spending HOURS on that site/forum in 2004-2005...!


----------



## spudmunkey

Chokey Chicken said:


> I personally think the rainbow splatter looks [...] more like a jawbreaker than this finish.



splatter looks like the outside.. this new finish looks like one being eaten


----------



## KnightBrolaire

technomancer said:


> So 3 color layers then rub randomly with belt sander and clear?


probably a decent amount of scraping and hand sanding. Machine sanders would chew through the layers too quickly.
jawbreaker finishes are surprisingly delicate ime unless you slather the guitar in thick layers of paint.
You have to be super careful on curves/edges since it's so easy to cut through to bare wood ime. 

Which reminds me, I need to finish my jawbreaker jazzmaster build.


----------



## technomancer

KnightBrolaire said:


> probably a decent amount of scraping and hand sanding. Machine sanders would chew through the layers too quickly.
> jawbreaker finishes are surprisingly delicate ime unless you slather the guitar in thick layers of paint.
> You have to be super careful on curves/edges since it's so easy to cut through to bare wood ime.
> 
> Which reminds me, I need to finish my jawbreaker jazzmaster build.



Yep I get the concept. Everyone seems to be assuming I was being negative, I wasn't, that finish would be a shitload of work.

It's just not something I would invest the money into personally  I like the splatters much more...


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> But, *no one* is really cross shopping Anderson and Kiesel, except maybe rhetorically in a "vs." thread on forums.



Me trying to pick what to order between a Leia, a Magistra, a Cobra and Diablo


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> If it were 1/2 price on a run? Maaaaybe. It would have to be something less "playfull". Something like black, primer grey and an orange, or something.



Yeah, I saw your post on the Kiesel forum. I think those muted colors - black, primer grey, and an orange or red - would be cool, because everyone always does bright colors with these. 

I’m generally not a fan of “forcing” a look, which is what this and relic guitars are for me. What I DO like is when character comes through organically. Like in Prisma guitars, where skateboard deck wood is layered and then sanded down to a guitar body. No particular effort is made to get the look. It just comes through uniquely in the building process.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, I saw your post on the Kiesel forum. I think those muted colors - black, primer grey, and an orange or red - would be cool, because everyone always does bright colors with these.
> 
> I’m generally not a fan of “forcing” a look, which is what this and relic guitars are for me. What I DO like is when character comes through organically. Like in Prisma guitars, where skateboard deck wood is layered and then sanded down to a guitar body. No particular effort is made to get the look. It just comes through uniquely in the building process.
> 
> View attachment 90711



It's not really a relic or anything, it's a copy of an old ESP Custom Shop finish called "Multi-Swirl".


----------



## Chokey Chicken

spudmunkey said:


> splatter looks like the outside.. this new finish looks like one being eaten



I suppose that is accurate. Still, the splatter looks like a nice professional job while the new one looks like somebody painted their guitar 3 times and let it get worn. Might just be me being an old woman shouting at clouds, though, who knows. I just hate how the image provided literally just looks like someone half-assedly sanding through layers of paint.

One thing's for sure... I REALLY want a jawbreaker now. Where the hell do you even buy those these days?


----------



## mbardu

Chokey Chicken said:


> I suppose that is accurate. Still, the splatter looks like a nice professional job while the new one looks like somebody painted their guitar 3 times and let it get worn. Might just be me being an old woman shouting at clouds, though, who knows. I just hate how the image provided literally just looks like someone half-assedly sanding through layers of paint.
> 
> One thing's for sure... I REALLY want a jawbreaker now. Where the hell do you even buy those these days?



Just order a few packs of strings from Sweetwater and see if you get some as a bonus!


----------



## Stuck_in_a_dream

bigcupholder said:


> Kiesel just nonchalantly posted these. I guess it's not a huge surprise that they could put p90s in a CS, but it's cool to see. It's odd they didn't have a big reveal for the headless hyperdrive though.



I like it! I think it's the 1st Kiesel design ever that I have no ifs or buts about it. It's always been the case that I like the overall design but then there would be something out of proportion that ruins it for me, this time I cannot find anything!

A multiscale 8-string would look dope imho. Wow, I can't even believe I'm saying this about a Kiesel design, but I can't stop thinking about it .


----------



## laxu

spudmunkey said:


> New "jawbreaker" finishes.
> 
> $800, includes 3 solid finishes, and "tons of hand labor"
> 
> Finish can't continue up the neck.
> 
> Concept by Casey (their paint guy) and Albert, their long-time head tech.
> View attachment 90654
> 
> View attachment 90660
> 
> View attachment 90659
> 
> View attachment 90658



This is a huge missed chance to call it "MS Paintjob".


----------



## Hollowway

@spudmunkey - what’s the word on the new LS release? Any consensus on what people think it will be? Seems like a headless hyperdrive named Light Speed is what most people think.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> @spudmunkey - what’s the word on the new LS release? Any consensus on what people think it will be? Seems like a headless hyperdrive named Light Speed is what most people think.



I couldn't think of a guitarist with the initials L. S., so Light Speed seems the most-likely to me. Either that, or finally the Larry Sanders model everyone's been begging for.


----------



## Avedas

I'm sure I'm gonna hate the new model but I sure am stoked to see what it is


----------



## bigcupholder

Hollowway said:


> @spudmunkey - what’s the word on the new LS release? Any consensus on what people think it will be? Seems like a headless hyperdrive named Light Speed is what most people think.


Given that we already have a picture of that on the previous page, I think it's definitely that. The Facebook group seems oblivious to the existence of that picture somehow, but I don't have the heart to post it there and ruin the surprise for the extreme fans.

I can't imagine what else it could be. They have a lot of models right now and a lot of near redundancy in the lineup. They're pretty well covered on both strat shapes and carved top set neck guitars, and they've got more headless models than any other guitar company their size.

I'd love to see them do a proper V finally.


----------



## kisielk

bigcupholder said:


> Given that we already have a picture of that on the previous page, I think it's definitely that. The Facebook group seems oblivious to the existence of that picture somehow, but I don't have the heart to post it there and ruin the surprise for the extreme fans.
> 
> I can't imagine what else it could be. They have a lot of models right now and a lot of near redundancy in the lineup. They're pretty well covered on both strat shapes and carved top set neck guitars, and they've got more headless models than any other guitar company their size.
> 
> I'd love to see them do a proper V finally.


I still want them to do a semi hollow headless, with F holes and everything. They are too focused on the metal market though


----------



## bigcupholder

kisielk said:


> I still want them to do a semi hollow headless, with F holes and everything. They are too focused on the metal market though


They aren't capable of doing a proper semi hollow though because everything is done by CNC. Even the Frank Gambale model that looks similar to a ES-335 is not a proper semi hollow with a bent top and sides. It's more like a solid body with large chambers. I don't disagree that it would be cool, but it's not happening at least in the traditional sense of semi hollow construction.

Maybe someday they'll do a headless Crescent, which can be ordered with a C-hole, and then you'll kinda-sorta-maybe get your wish.


----------



## kisielk

What about the SH550? I thought those were true semihollow with carved top.


----------



## mbardu

kisielk said:


> What about the SH550? I thought those were true semihollow with carved top.



Still solid base.
They're just not equipped for real semi-hollows.


----------



## bigcupholder

kisielk said:


> What about the SH550? I thought those were true semihollow with carved top.


The SH550 is not bent plywood like a traditional semi hollow. It's the same construction as the Frank Gambale model. It starts as a solid block and then is CNC'ed to be mostly hollow. It's not a bad thing, just different. It'll be less resonant but also less prone to feedback.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Anything that requires significant wood working isn't really on the menu at Kiesel. 

Stuff like binding, extensive inlay, deep carving, bracing, etc. 

That precludes certain styles of guitars. 

Not that it's a bad thing, they have thier system and create some cool stuff within those confines.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

kisielk said:


> I still want them to do a semi hollow headless, with F holes and everything. They are too focused on the metal market though


Yes! I would buy one of these. I love my hollowbody electric.


----------



## kisielk

bigcupholder said:


> The SH550 is not bent plywood like a traditional semi hollow. It's the same construction as the Frank Gambale model. It starts as a solid block and then is CNC'ed to be mostly hollow. It's not a bad thing, just different. It'll be less resonant but also less prone to feedback.


well in any case, I’d be happy with a headless equivalent of the SH550,


----------



## Albake21

Just confirmed, it's a headless hyperdrive. Honestly, it actually looks a lot better as a headless than normal.


----------



## mbardu

Albake21 said:


> Just confirmed, it's a headless hyperdrive. Honestly, it actually looks a lot better as a headless than normal.



Aaaahhh ... I recall how in the long long time ago of a couple of weeks ago the answer was a definitive "no we're not doing a headless version of the hyperdrive".
Add it to the pile of not doing: bolt-on headless, multiscale, roasted maple, a veritable smorgasbord of assorted finishes, 24.75 scale CS etc etc

Considering I asked a couple of times if we'd be able to get a 24.75 scale option on bolt-ons such as the Vanquish, and always got "no" for an answer...I guess I can conclude that it's pretty much happening for sure any day now


----------



## mbardu

Also I hope for their sake nobody from Di$ney is aware of Kiesel and watching their social media because someone is basically _begging _to get sued at this point.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

mbardu said:


> Aaaahhh ... I recall how in the long long time ago of a couple of weeks ago the answer was a definitive "no we're not doing a headless version of the hyperdrive".
> Add it to the pile of not doing: bolt-on headless, multiscale, roasted maple, a veritable smorgasbord of assorted finishes, 24.75 scale CS etc etc
> 
> Considering I asked a couple of times if we'd be able to get a 24.75 scale option on bolt-ons such as the Vanquish, and always got "no" for an answer...I guess I can conclude that it's pretty much happening for sure any day now


It's basically a meme at this point of them saying "no we're not doing X option" and then 6 months later (or less) they do it


----------



## Avedas

Avedas said:


> Someday Kiesel will release a headless model I like.
> 
> Today is not that day.


Think I'll just revive this quote.


----------



## Hollowway

Huh. I figured an 8 string version would be an option, given the balance improvement without the HS. I figured wrong.


----------



## mbardu

Hollowway said:


> Huh. I figured an 8 string version would be an option, given the balance improvement without the HS. I figured wrong.



They said it's not going to be available in 8 string, so you can probably get one in a week or two.


----------



## Hollowway

mbardu said:


> They said it's not going to be available in 8 string, so you can probably get one in a week or two.


----------



## technomancer

I actually like it...


----------



## diagrammatiks

i love these weird headless shapes.

is it neckthrough? even better

can it be multiscale?


----------



## mbardu

diagrammatiks said:


> i love these weird headless shapes.
> 
> is it neckthrough? even better
> 
> can it be multiscale?



Yes


----------



## mbardu

technomancer said:


> I actually like it...



That's sparkly blue burst looks like an extremely nice finish under lights and with movement.


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> That's sparkly blue burst looks like an extremely nice finish under lights and with movement.



Their metal flake finishes are genuinely dope. Are they worth the expensive price? Not to me. But half-price in a run, or sale? Maybe. I've seen cheaper guitars with metal flake finishes where you could see pits in the surface if you angled it just tight to the light, bare spots where no metal flakes stuck, places where they buffed through them on edges, etc. Nothing like that on Kiesel's, for sure.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Their metal flake finishes are genuinely dope. Are they worth the expensive price? Not to me. But half-price in a run, or sale? Maybe. I've seen cheaper guitars with metal flake finishes where you could see pits in the surface if you angled it just tight to the light, bare spots where no metal flakes stuck, places where they buffed through them on edges, etc. Nothing like that on Kiesel's, for sure.



The regular sparkles, the color shifts, and I'd say even more so the rainbow sparkles... photos make 0 justice to how nice those are in person.


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> The regular sparkles, the color shifts, and I'd say even more so the rainbow sparkles... photos make 0 justice to how nice those are in person.


Yeah, I never would have considered Radiation Green before, but saw a Type X in that finish at NAMM at the Lizard Spit booth, and it was an AWESOME paintjob.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

I’m not a big Kiesel fan, being in the U.K. means we never really even see them, but despite Jeff acting like an 13 year old with his own guitar company some of the time (naming guitars after Star Wars stuff is definitely something 13 year old me would have done) I have to say I love their finish options. Whether it’s the colour change, the metallics, or even the crazy ass Jeff-bursts. On the Internet, they always look like they’re done well and they always look 13 year old cool.


----------



## lurè

that surpasses the X type


----------



## SymmetricScars

Ordered my first Kiesel earlier this week, a multiscale vader 7 in that blue-purple colorshift. Now the waiting begins...


----------



## mbardu

Pretty anecdotal but a lot of variety - playing around with a bunch of tremolo setups:


So that matches my impressions from before...the Kiesel Hipshot setup is indeed extremely stable to use. Top tier.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> Pretty anecdotal but a lot of variety - playing around with a bunch of tremolo setups:
> 
> 
> So that matches my impressions from before...the Kiesel Hipshot setup is indeed extremely stable to use. Top tier.




In 2021 you have to try and make bridges themselves not stable. That's the easy part. 

It's more of making trem that's fun to use, and after borrowing an Osiris with a trem for two weeks, personally, I find the Hipshot/Kiesel headless unit to keep great tune, but it's just so....."meh". It behaves a lot like Kahlers in overall feel, and that's just not my bag. 

So great unit so long as you're not expecting a Floyd. For some that might be a deal breaker, most probably don't care.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> In 2021 you have to try and make bridges themselves not stable. That's the easy part.
> 
> It's more of making trem that's fun to use, and after borrowing an Osiris with a trem for two weeks, personally, I find the Hipshot/Kiesel headless unit to keep great tune, but it's just so....."meh". It behaves a lot like Kahlers in overall feel, and that's just not my bag.
> 
> So great unit so long as you're not expecting a Floyd. For some that might be a deal breaker, most probably don't care.



A lot of bridges can be made stable, that's for sure...but there are still some differences - which is the point of the video. And there, the Hipshot does work better than most in that regard- for example better than something like a MusicMan bridge. And that's saying a lot considering that one is already pretty good. Maybe those few cents of difference don't sound like much, but at least the anecdotal video matches my (anecdotal as well) experience.

As for feel, for sure it doesn't feel like a Floyd, but that was really to be expected.
And I also imagine some people _prefer the_ more traditional feel of the hipshot compared to a Floyd, so that's more subjective.
That said, one thing for sure is not subjective - the trem arm on the Hipshot really sucks . It's a small thing but a real PITA.


----------



## spudmunkey

New "Dan Jacobs Signature" version of the Hyperdrive.

First "few" who get the special bloody finish (Custom Shop Blood Finish, $600 option), it'll be done by Dan. I assume it has to be finished by a certain date and then he'll do up a batch.

Doing some quick math, it seems like if you go through and add up the standard options, (Floyd w/locking nut, black limba body, 3-piece maple neck, thorium bridge), it's something like $40-70 cheaper than a similarly-equipped Hyperdrive.

https://www.kieselguitars.com/catalog/guitars/dj6c


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> New "Dan Jacobs Signature" version of the Hyperdrive.
> 
> First "few" who get the special bloody finish (Custom Shop Blood Finish, $600 option), it'll be done by Dan. I assume it has to be finished by a certain date and then he'll do up a batch.
> 
> Doing some quick math, it seems like if you go through and add up the standard options, (Floyd w/locking nut, black limba body, 3-piece maple neck, thorium bridge), it's something like $40-70 cheaper than a similarly-equipped Hyperdrive.
> 
> https://www.kieselguitars.com/catalog/guitars/dj6c



I saw that. That’s pretty cool. I love the idea of him doing the finishes. 

And, because this is a 6 string only model, it further solidifies my desire to quit my job, become a famous guitarist, get a sig, and make it an 8 string with Floyd. For those that want my sig in a 6 or 7 or hard tail? They can suck on it.


----------



## bigcupholder

I'm not crazy about the concept of signature guitars that are just slightly-discounted options packages. It makes sense from manufacturers that don't let you customize things, but from Kiesel it really adds nothing but clutter to the lineup (as someone who's never heard of most of their artists).

I find the Letchford model ugly, but at least it's something different: their thinnest body and their only headless with a larger body (which I guess reduces hunching over the guitar when seated). 

I wish more artists forced them to make something different, like cutting up the rear end of the hyperdrive to make it more of a star shape, or making a proper V shape for example.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

bigcupholder said:


> I'm not crazy about the concept of signature guitars that are just slightly-discounted options packages. It makes sense from manufacturers that don't let you customize things, but from Kiesel it really adds nothing but clutter to the lineup (as someone who's never heard of most of their artists).
> 
> I find the Letchford model ugly, but at least it's something different: their thinnest body and their only headless with a larger body (which I guess reduces hunching over the guitar when seated).
> 
> I wish more artists forced them to make something different, like cutting up the rear end of the hyperdrive to make it more of a star shape, or making a proper V shape for example.



Yeah, that's been my gripe for awhile too. 

At least the FG1 let you get a trem on their semi-hollow platform, but not anymore.


----------



## Hollowway

Yeah, I’m guessing that if an artist truly designed a signature guitar, it’s not going to just happen to look exactly like a currently available model. Vai’s JEM is a great example, because it has features that he specifically wanted that easily distinguish it. I know the average sig model these days is just a production guitar with specific specs, but I’m all for unique designs based on that player’s vision.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

It's just interesting. 

In some cases they're willing to modify and create new models, like the Becker, Holdsworth, McKinney, but then there's super derivitive ones like the James, Hiland, and Liddell. 

I'm guessing what the artist actually wants is a big factor. Not everyone wants to reinvent the wheel.


----------



## technomancer

When you know the specs you want but can't decide on model...


----------



## Jeff

Played a CT624 yesterday, very recent model because it was with the Hipshot trem. Guitar was flawless stem to stern. Not a flaw on it, cosmetic or otherwise. This is literally the fourth one to come through the shop in the last couple months that have been perfect (albeit not all of them my cup o' tea). 

If Jeff fired himself, and they hired a better CS team, Kiesel would take over the world.


----------



## spudmunkey

Aries Neck-Through Run

More details to come during their 4PM (pacific) live video.

Limited Run for both standard and multiscale Aries Neckthru guitars.
Choose from 3 option packages (called "Stages")

Starting at $1400
Right and Left handed
World-Wide Sales

"A guitar run gives you the ability to get a Kiesel at a huge savings. The reason for the savings is, because the options are limited it helps us in production - so we are passing those saving on to you as well as further discounts to help you get into your first Kiesel or anther Kiesel."

"All sales are final for a guitar run, no refunds will be given and we don't allow cancellations, order changes and or exchanges. Yes, this means from the moment you place your order, you will not be allowed to call back and make any changes whatsoever - no exceptions."

Limited to 2 instruments per customer

Stage 1 sales open at 12 Noon 4/4/21 online
(all Stage 1 orders must be placed through online app)

Stage 2 and 3 builds run open Monday 4/5/21 at 9am - to place your order Stage 2 or Stage 3 orders only call 858-GUITARS, press 3 to get Kaitlin - leave your full name and cell phone number with her and one of my custom shop experts will call you back - DO NOT CALL MORE THAN ONCE to leave your info - calls are returned in the order they come in - this will only push you down the waiting list....

All guitars will be numbered and signed
Soft Cases are $80
Shipping to US is $35 and International $70

https://kieselguitarsrun.com/?fbclid=IwAR3FNEOUQSHnVSX6_1Y4DyhGG6UJ-4gj1N3HQjaGFG19ehGMPprzPWZMLtY


----------



## spudmunkey




----------



## mbardu

edit: I mean, I get the day it is today...but they actually built a guitar that plays?


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> edit: I mean, I get the day it is today...but they actually built a guitar that plays?


go to 10:32 in that video linked above to hear Dan play it.

I do gotta say, it was kind of hilarious that they posted a "Which is the April Fool's prank? Sushi guitar or an Aries run?" and both were real. Ha!


----------



## Hollowway

I love that sushi guitar!


----------



## kisielk

Pretty awesome that they got actual model sushi from Japan for that build.


----------



## Stuck_in_a_dream

I don't think this has been posted, apologies if it has:


So.....? What do u guys think, Ares NT special run at $1,400, worth it? Any issues with prior runs?


----------



## kisielk

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> I don't think this has been posted, apologies if it has:
> 
> 
> So.....? What do u guys think, Ares NT special run at $1,400, worth it? Any issues with prior runs?



I did the Zeus run in 2019, turned out awesome...

Aries NT for $1400 or even $1600 is an amazing deal I think. Cheaper than an Ibanez Prestige...


----------



## spudmunkey

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> I don't think this has been posted, apologies if it has:
> 
> 
> So.....? What do u guys think, Ares NT special run at $1,400, worth it? Any issues with prior runs?




The only over-arching "run issues" I've seen since their first run were delays when it took an unexpectedly-long time for Hipshot to provide the Gold and Chrome hardware for the "gold and chrome headless hardware run". But other than that, it seems to be pretty smooth sailing, as long as you understand the order process, know there's no changes, etc etc. When cranking out ~200 guitars to people who are all very active on social media, there's a higher likelihood that someone will post about a guitar they were unhappy with for whatever reason, but honestly...no run-specific issues stick out. And even outside of the run, it's been a pretty damn quiet (almost a) year, even when poking around Reddit, here, TGP, HC, TB etc.

The Starting price is $50 over the base price of the Aries neck-through. Since there's nothing wrong with Alder as a body wood, it already comes with a quartersawn maple neck and stainless frets standard, that $1350 starting price is already not bad.

The run only continues to be a good value if the included or discounted options are ones you'd want anyway, and you're not just buying because they are discounted.

For example: If you knew you wanted an ash body, well then that's included in the base price in the run...but with a new "normal" build, you get $100 in free options, so with a $150 ash body only adding $50, we're at exact parity: $1400

So, Kiesel already has a menu of free solid colors "free". If you just wanted one of those, you're not saving anything with the run. However, this run includes free Antique Ash finish option, which is normally $100.

Or, if you stick with the alder body, then you can also get one of their metal flake/sparkle finishes for $400, which is $200 off their normal price. Since you've given up the $150 ash body and $100 antique ash to save $200 on sparkle, it's not quite as much of a discount, but still...$200 off if you were planning on a sparkle finish anyway.

Their thinner neck option is free, you get a few free non-standard headstocks, free matching ash headstock (if you picked ash).

Then you get into the neck wood upgrades, and your options are limited to maple (which is standard so you're not saving anything) or some walnut 1 and 3-piece options which are 50% off. So again, the amount of money you could save is $100 if you were planning to get a walnut/bloodwood 3-piece neck...but if you are OK with maple, then you're spending an extra $100 you wouldn't otherwise spend.

The ONLY really unique spec in the lowest-priced tier (or "stage" as they call it), is that normally they save their pale moon ebony fretboards for guitars that are already $2000 without the option. They usually don't have a lot, so they save it for more expensive builds, and it's not even available to Kiesel's artist roster unless Jeff's providing something special for them. So this is a way to get a pale moon ebony board for a lower price than you could normally get by $600, and then it is discounted $100 to boot.

So: It seems like you could save something like $400-600 pretty easily but you're then spending much more than the $1400 starting price, which is already $50 more than the bass model which, again, is already a nicely-spec'd guitar....and no matter what you add to it, the build _quality_ would be the same.


----------



## Avedas

I can't speak for runs but I do own a neckthrough Aries. At $1400 it would be by far best in class with zero competition from any builder IMO.

I finally got around to taking pictures of mine: https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/ngd-seafoam-flame-maple.346898/


----------



## technomancer

Specs I would probably want aren't available, otherwise cool for guys that want a NT Aries


----------



## BigViolin

I want that crazy ass Dean Lamb headstock.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

Anybody going for this run. I’m on the fence, I’ll probably procrastinate until it sells out. 1.7k is a good price, but still a lot for me.


----------



## Hollowway

The specs I'd want aren't available, either. I'm sitting this one out. I've actually never done a run, because what I want never seems to come up in a run. As a company that offers a menu of options, I'm actually surprised how many people do these runs. I have relatively specific things I'd want to spend money on, and those things aren't available, or are only available on the higher tier versions.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

Hollowway said:


> The specs I'd want aren't available, either. I'm sitting this one out. I've actually never done a run, because what I want never seems to come up in a run. As a company that offers a menu of options, I'm actually surprised how many people do these runs. I have relatively specific things I'd want to spend money on, and those things aren't available, or are only available on the higher tier versions.


Yeah, I hear ya. It’s a relatively small savings for me, and what’s offered isn’t exactly what I’d want. I think I’m gonna sit this one out.


----------



## Avedas

Hollowway said:


> The specs I'd want aren't available, either. I'm sitting this one out. I've actually never done a run, because what I want never seems to come up in a run. As a company that offers a menu of options, I'm actually surprised how many people do these runs. I have relatively specific things I'd want to spend money on, and those things aren't available, or are only available on the higher tier versions.


After the things I've seen on the FB group, I'm not surprised at all. People will mix and match anything.


----------



## Hollowway

Avedas said:


> After the things I've seen on the FB group, I'm not surprised at all. People will mix and match anything.


Yeah, you get the feeling that some people think that ordering every option is going to make it look better. And that's not at all the way it works.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, you get the feeling that some people think that ordering every option is going to make it look better. And that's not at all the way it works.


Nobody ever accused Kiesel or the fanboys of having good taste. The amount of cringey guitars on reverb is astounding.


----------



## Hollowway

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> Nobody ever accused Kiesel or the fanboys of having good taste. The amount of cringey guitars on reverb is astounding.


Yeah, you get the feeling that they wear a plaid shirt with striped pants, a polka dot tie and Christmas sweater all at the same time. That’s what some of the guitars look like. There are some exceptionally nice Kiesel builds, but they all show restraint. A lot of these guitars we see pop up show zero restraint.


----------



## Stuck_in_a_dream

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, you get the feeling that some people think that ordering every option is going to make it look better. And that's not at all the way it works.



^ can we frame that? Couldn't agree more.

Re the run, I'm on the fence as well. I'm in a headless multi-scale 8-string phase, already got an Agile Chiral (NGD thread coming after I upgrade the bridge), and I'm expecting a yellow Aristides soon, so an Ares NT is a bit too much.


----------



## Hollowway

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> ^ can we frame that? Couldn't agree more.
> 
> Re the run, I'm on the fence as well. I'm in a headless multi-scale 8-string phase, already got an Agile Chiral (NGD thread coming after I upgrade the bridge), and I'm expecting a yellow Aristides soon, so an Ares NT is a bit too much.



I’m in an 8 string with trem phase (well, it’s not a phase as it’s been 12 years, but my mom keeps telling me I’m just going through a phase. It’s not a phase, mom! This is ME! All I wanted was a Pepsi! (Wayyyy too many things going on in these parentheses.)) and since there’s no trem option on this, I don’t really feel the pull to do anything with it. I will say that a website guitar builder would be cool with all of these options. If Halo and Balaguer can do it, Kiesel could. I know they don’t have to, but it would make visualizing the options so much easier.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, you get the feeling that they wear a plaid shirt with striped pants, a polka dot tie and Christmas sweater all at the same time. That’s what some of the guitars look like. There are some exceptionally nice Kiesel builds, but they all show restraint. A lot of these guitars we see pop up show zero restraint.


Lol. Well said.


----------



## Mathemagician

Hollowway said:


> I’m in an 8 string with trem phase (well, it’s not a phase as it’s been 12 years, but my mom keeps telling me I’m just going through a phase. It’s not a phase, mom! This is ME! All I wanted was a Pepsi! (Wayyyy too many things going on in these parentheses.)) and since there’s no trem option on this, I don’t really feel the pull to do anything with it. I will say that a website guitar builder would be cool with all of these options. If Halo and Balaguer can do it, Kiesel could. I know they don’t have to, but it would make visualizing the options so much easier.



If people could visualize every option they’re checking, they’d check a lot less options.


----------



## Avedas

Mathemagician said:


> If people could visualize every option they’re checking, they’d check a lot less options.


Exactly what I thought lol

If people had to look in the mirror before buying their insane outfit, they'd probably think twice.


----------



## danbox

I do really like that black guitar with the pale moon fretboard, third picture on stage 1 https://kieselguitarsrun.com/stage1

Aries is one of the models I’m looking at for a good 7 string multiscale but am not planning on getting anything for like a year... I bet if I end up getting one it’ll be like $500 more than getting one of these runs -_-


----------



## mbardu

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> Nobody ever accused Kiesel or the fanboys of having good taste. The amount of cringey guitars on reverb is astounding.



Is it though?
Checking the actual recent listings on reverb, it's actually pretty tame.
There's one guitar in KRG which you might not like (I don't love KRG myself), and there's one Vader-8 with a ton of ridiculous colors but those are exceptions that ironically I bet most people here would love  . Same on GuitarCenter actually. Not really much in the way of gaudy or insane. Most people can't even afford to tick all the boxes today anyway considering how much the price of options has increased  .

IMO this is one other cliché that's hard to shake off because we all remember the watermelon guitar, or the most obnoxious Aries examples, or of course they will highlight the crazier stuff on their social media... I mean, of course its there and some are forever burnt on our collective retina, but at the end of the day in terms of what is actually built in large numbers, it's not that bad. Just like the cliché that they have no resale value, it's just stuck now.

Other builders frequently push out stuff that's _at least_ as gaudy...plus they charge a lot more and they don't have the excuse of "it's not my fault, it's the customer"


----------



## Hollowway

mbardu said:


> Is it though?
> Checking the actual recent listings on reverb, it's actually pretty tame.
> There's one guitar in KRG which you might not like (I don't love KRG myself), and there's one Vader-8 with a ton of ridiculous colors but those are exceptions that ironically I bet most people here would love  . Same on GuitarCenter actually. Not really much in the way of gaudy or insane. Most people can't even afford to tick all the boxes today anyway considering how much the price of options has increased  .
> 
> IMO this is one other cliché that's hard to shake off because we all remember the watermelon guitar, or the most obnoxious Aries examples, or of course they will highlight the crazier stuff on their social media... I mean, of course its there and some are forever burnt on our collective retina, but at the end of the day in terms of what is actually built in large numbers, it's not that bad. Just like the cliché that they have no resale value, it's just stuck now.
> 
> Other builders frequently push out stuff that's _at least_ as gaudy...plus they charge a lot more and they don't have the excuse of "it's not my fault, it's the customer"



I know you’re a Kiesel fan, so it’s probably going to come off differently. But there have and are a lot of questionable (to me) guitars on Reverb over the past year, say. Maybe not right now, though. There are two on the kiesel in stock page that I think could have been absolutely killer guitars if they hadn’t kept going with options. You’re right - the majority of builds aren’t over the top. But there are definitely a handful of people out there that have questionable taste for artists, lol. And of course there are worse offenders out there in the world of luthierie. No one is saying kiesel’s the worst. (I think we can agree that goes to Lionheart.)


----------



## mbardu

Hollowway said:


> I know you’re a Kiesel fan, so it’s probably going to come off differently. But there have and are a lot of questionable (to me) guitars on Reverb over the past year, say. Maybe not right now, though. There are two on the kiesel in stock page that I think could have been absolutely killer guitars if they hadn’t kept going with options. You’re right - the majority of builds aren’t over the top. But there are definitely a handful of people out there that have questionable taste for artists, lol. And of course there are worse offenders out there in the world of luthierie. No one is saying kiesel’s the worst. (I think we can agree that goes to Lionheart.)



I'm not more of a Kiesel fan (especially lately) than an Anderson fan or a Vandermeij fan or a Korean Schecter fan. And i agree with you wholeheartedly that there are tons (tens or even a hundred i bet we could find) of kiesels that basically hurt to look at . And sometimes a couple do pop up on reverb and in the "guitars too funny not to post" thread. But out of probably 50/100k Carvin or Kiesels out there, they are outliers.
And Kiesel just tends to really be the name where we take the exception for the rule when it's time to criticize.


----------



## Hollowway

mbardu said:


> And Kiesel just tends to really be the name where we take the exception for the rule when it's time to criticize.



In this thread. I assure you the focus is 100% on extraneous abalone in the BC Rich thread, lol.


----------



## RevelGTR

After months of deliberation I finally put in an order for a Kiesel last week. Some highlights:
- DC600 with the small, Vader style bevels 
- 80’s Pearl Pink 
- Hipshot trem and black/cream M12SD/Beryllium set 
- Black hardware
- Birdseye maple board 
- Satin ebony headstock overlay with gold metallic logo 

Going for a vibe somewhere between an 80’s soloist and an insta-approved Suhr/AZ/Charvel superstrat.


----------



## Yelir

mbardu said:


> Is it though?
> Checking the actual recent listings on reverb, it's actually pretty tame.
> There's one guitar in KRG which you might not like (I don't love KRG myself), and there's one Vader-8 with a ton of ridiculous colors but those are exceptions that ironically I bet most people here would love  . Same on GuitarCenter actually. Not really much in the way of gaudy or insane. Most people can't even afford to tick all the boxes today anyway considering how much the price of options has increased  .


Woah I really like the V8, too bad it only has the single pickup...


----------



## laxu

Mathemagician said:


> If people could visualize every option they’re checking, they’d check a lot less options.



That's why I made a Photoshop mockup of the Kiesel AM7 figuring out the look I wanted and then sent that to Kiesel and they delivered very very well.

Real vs mockup

Whether people agree with my choices is a whole other thing but I like how it looks. I've always been a fan of flashy guitars so I'm happy to shred on my swimming pool of a guitar! If I were to order the same guitar now I would probably pick a different finish because they have more that I like available now than they did at the end of 2015.

I understand why Kiesel has been in no hurry to update their builder software because it gets expensive real quick when you don't have in-house developers. It's also a pretty complicated system with a lot of assets required for different woods and finishes and getting all that produced is a lot of work too.

The real issue for most is that they start thinking their dream guitar before they know what things they like and dislike. So they pick every option available just so they'll have it.


----------



## Avedas

Honestly from a technical perspective a builder is a weekend project. Maybe a bit more if you need to gather photos of all your different options, but it's not too complicated.

I think the business reason of not having a builder is that they would be held responsible for the guitar turning out exactly like the builder shows it. You'll definitely get people complaining about wood variation etc.

And of course the more nefarious reason is because people suck at visualizing guitars and that leads them to choose more options thinking they'll look better, meaning more money for Jeff.


----------



## spudmunkey

Avedas said:


> Honestly from a technical perspective a builder is a weekend project. Maybe a bit more if you need to gather photos of all your different options, but it's not too complicated.
> 
> I think the business reason of not having a builder is that they would be held responsible for the guitar turning out exactly like the builder shows it. You'll definitely get people complaining about wood variation etc.
> 
> And of course the more nefarious reason is because people suck at visualizing guitars and that leads them to choose more options thinking they'll look better, meaning more money for Jeff.



A conversation thatxs been had hundreds of times, but...

They are basically running at capacity without it. It would purely be a marketing expense. If it boosted sales, they would increase prices to act as a throttle. If it didn't boost sales, they would also raise prices to pay for it.

For that investment, they likely wouldn't bother with it UNLESS it created some efficiencies back-of-house. Unless it spat out something that integrated with a order entry/billing/production ticket system.

Outside of that, I could see them doing something INCREDIBLY rudimentary (like a paint-by-numbers children's coloring book) for maybe 1 or 2 models.

Where things start to get tricky is with things like the Rear Natural Clear option. This option looks different from model to model, and if there's a top wood or not. To make a virtual builder to accurately represent the different end-results, they would have to add multiple codes for the different versions, or have a specialized builder for each model, which simply isn't a sustainable setup for adding models and options in the future.

Last summer, I came across a newly-uploaded YouTube video that only had about a dozen views, and was only a few hours old. It was posted with a clickbait title, something like "fired by kiesel!" In the approximately 20 minute video, he detailed a timeline where he actually worked with kiesel on a builder in his spare time. He visited the factory, they bought him lunch, they talked about the plan. Initially he didn't think it was going to be as involved as it turned out the desired end result was going to be. He worked on it a bit, took a break due to other things in his life and work, and then wasn't able to complete it for whatever reason, I don't actually remember specifically. But it's not that he was fired, per se, just that he was taking a long time, didn't actually finish much, and they parted ways. I could be wrong, but I think it was that person who made the Vader builder that was shared in their Facebook group, which got taken down, partially because he had a donation link on his page.

I watched the video once, and was planning to rewatch it again the next day to try to record some of the details from it, but it was since deleted. I have to assume someone from kiesel reached out and said, "Hey man...come on...you gotta take that down."

In the video, multiple times, he went out of his way to say how kind and generous Kiesel and Jeff specifically were, with their time, attention, and cooperation… it just ended up being a much larger, and much deeper project than he was initially expecting and wasn't able to finish a whole lot.

So it's not like it's something they haven't actually looked into with some depth that.. no doubt it's something they want, but is really only worth it if they can get something out of it beyond just a colouring book… it would have to prove its worth in improving things on their end, as well.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

spudmunkey said:


> A conversation thatxs been had hundreds of times, but...
> 
> They are basically running at capacity without it. It would purely be a marketing expense. If it boosted sales, they would increase prices to act as a throttle. If it didn't boost sales, they would also raise prices to pay for it.
> 
> For that investment, they likely wouldn't bother with it UNLESS it created some efficiencies back-of-house. Unless it spat out something that integrated with a order entry/billing/production ticket system.
> 
> Outside of that, I could see them doing something INCREDIBLY rudimentary (like a paint-by-numbers children's coloring book) for maybe 1 or 2 models.
> 
> Where things start to get tricky is with things like the Rear Natural Clear option. This option looks different from model to model, and if there's a top wood or not. To make a virtual builder to accurately represent the different end-results, they would have to add multiple codes for the different versions, or have a specialized builder for each model, which simply isn't a sustainable setup for adding models and options in the future.
> 
> Last summer, I came across a newly-uploaded YouTube video that only had about a dozen views, and was only a few hours old. It was posted with a clickbait title, something like "fired by kiesel!" In the approximately 20 minute video, he detailed a timeline where he actually worked with kiesel on a builder in his spare time. He visited the factory, they bought him lunch, they talked about the plan. Initially he didn't think it was going to be as involved as it turned out the desired end result was going to be. He worked on it a bit, took a break due to other things in his life and work, and then wasn't able to complete it for whatever reason, I don't actually remember specifically. But it's not that he was fired, per se, just that he was taking a long time, didn't actually finish much, and they parted ways. I could be wrong, but I think it was that person who made the Vader builder that was shared in their Facebook group, which got taken down, partially because he had a donation link on his page.
> 
> I watched the video once, and was planning to rewatch it again the next day to try to record some of the details from it, but it was since deleted. I have to assume someone from kiesel reached out and said, "Hey man...come on...you gotta take that down."
> 
> In the video, multiple times, he went out of his way to say how kind and generous Kiesel and Jeff specifically were, with their time, attention, and cooperation… it just ended up being a much larger, and much deeper project than he was initially expecting and wasn't able to finish a whole lot.
> 
> So it's not like it's something they haven't actually looked into with some depth that.. no doubt it's something they want, but is really only worth it if they can get something out of it beyond just a colouring book… it would have to prove its worth in improving things on their end, as well.


This is some serious mental gymnastics and utter bullshit tbh. If companies like Balaguer, Halo, Aviator, and even ESP can get visual builders up and running, then so could kiesel. Halo and Balaguer's builders are filled with options too, so acting as though kiesel somehow wouldn't be able to do the same is asinine. I've been saying it basically since Halo came out with their builder (like over 6 years ago) that more companies need one. 
As far as mockups not matching reality, all they'd have to do is put the same kind of disclaimer Balaguer uses "this is a visual representation and is not a guarantee of what your build will look like due to variation in wood grain etc".


----------



## Avedas

Yeah again I really don't buy any technical challenge. I think it would just be too expensive to maintain at the quality Kiesel would want and the business doesn't particularly benefit from it anyway.


----------



## xzacx

KnightBrolaire said:


> This is some serious mental gymnastics and utter bullshit tbh. If companies like Balaguer, Halo, Aviator, and even ESP can get visual builders up and running, then so could kiesel.



Companies don't run regular sales/promos/runs because they don't want to sell more guitars. I cringe whenever I see this inference about Kiesel. That's not a knock on them either—I'm not suggesting they aren't selling lots of guitars and doing great, but I don't believe for a single second they wouldn't happily sell as many more as they could. Even if wait times increased 25-50%, they'd still be faster than the vast majority of custom builds. I won't bother speculating why they won't do a visualizer, because speculation is all that it would be, but there's no way I'm buying that as the reason.


----------



## RevelGTR

I almost think a new website should take priority over a builder, although both at once would make the most sense. I do have a weird sort of affection for their horrible website because I can remember being a thrash elitist 13 year old in 2008 and drooling over Ultra V’s and V220’s on the exact same website as they have now


----------



## Seabeast2000

I thought "Kiesel" or Jeff had alluded to a new site coming several months back.....


----------



## lurè

Their builder is also very simple with no pics or preview of specs; just a list of options to select.
I'm not asking a completely overhaul with 3d rendering of guitars, just add the "call my guys" specs as selectable.


----------



## mbardu

xzacx said:


> Companies don't run regular sales/promos/runs because they don't want to sell more guitars. I cringe whenever I see this inference about Kiesel. That's not a knock on them either—I'm not suggesting they aren't selling lots of guitars and doing great, but I don't believe for a single second they wouldn't happily sell as many more as they could. Even if wait times increased 25-50%, they'd still be faster than the vast majority of custom builds. I won't bother speculating why they won't do a visualizer, because speculation is all that it would be, but there's no way I'm buying that as the reason.



Counterpoint: their promos have been pretty useless over the last 18 months (as is the latest run)- and yet they're still running at capacity.

The "Even if wait times increased 25-50%" also misses the point and is kinda bad maths and simplification...
Having a bigger steady stream of orders would not increase wait times 50% (say from 2 months to 3 months) as a "one-off" compared to today.

Instead, imagine they have a max throughput of let's say 5,000 guitars a year, and suddenly had 7,500 orders a year.
This would not increase wait times by 50%. Instead, after two years for example, they now have 15,000 orders to fulfill. This would take 3 years of builds at their total throughput. So if you order end of year 2, you have to wait at least a year for your order, which is 4/6 times longer than the current 2/3 months. And obviously this compounds with time. After 4 years, you have 30,000 orders, yet only had throughput to produce 20,000 so you're now 10,000 guitars (or 2 years) behind.

And those are not just made up hypothetical numbers either. I don't believe their throughput _could _be much higher than 5000.
I've seen the shop, and they're pretty full already, with only finite space and machines. All of last year they were also working over time with the staff that they have in order to keep up with demand. To change scale beyond that, they'd need the desire to move location (again), which is a pretty big deal and at least a multi-year project; as well as to train and staff more people (which is hardly free) ... And just hope quality or consistency doesn't suffer. But more importantly, they don't need to. As it stands they're still playing with their pricing power with their small regular increases, and it has not decreased demand yet, while increasing their margins (at least I suspect). So as long as their order book is full, that's 100% the right business move. It might sound counterintuitive, but not all businesses have to or want to produce more either. Not everyone is FMIC. Sometimes having fixed or at least controlled volumes and improving margins is just as good a model.
That's also a much better business model in my book than the way too common small builders taking on exponential numbers of orders, with wait times going to multi-year real quick, and then frustration on all parts, rushed attempt to scale that often fail, and often drop in quality.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I think folks are greatly overestimating how a virtual builder will affect order volume.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

Kiesel isn’t exactly hurtin’ for orders.


----------



## Hollowway

It’s not about increasing sales. A virtual builder is done for the benefit of the customer. A good business, that lasts a long time, puts its customers and their experience first. My consistent criticism of Jeff is that he appears to only care about himself and the income from the business. It’s a stark contrast to those before him, who has this vision of a company that would make custom guitars of high quality, and do so at a reasonable price. If he did things with the customer first attitude, he’d create way more fans, and have a much better chance at fending off any future competition or a market downturn. He operates as though he thinks the guitar world is never going to change, and there’s just no way to know that. It’s true that Kiesel doesn’t NEED a virtual builder. But, it’s not clear that they shouldn’t have one.


----------



## bracky

The virtual builder will result in more returned guitars. They can’t possibly look exactly like what the builder shows. Some folks can’t accept that.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

bracky said:


> The virtual builder will result in more returned guitars. They can’t possibly look exactly like what the builder shows. Some folks can’t accept that.



Is that something that happens IRL? 

Do companies that provide virtual builders deal with higher return rates?


----------



## bigcupholder

bracky said:


> The virtual builder will result in more returned guitars. They can’t possibly look exactly like what the builder shows. Some folks can’t accept that.


I would guess the opposite. The scenario you mentioned should be eclipsed by the builder helping people spec out a nice cohesive design. The builder should be better than people imagining option combinations, especially considering the lack of consistent or easily accessible pictures they have for their options/finishes now.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> Is that something that happens IRL?
> 
> Do companies that provide virtual builders deal with higher return rates?



The question is a bit moot.
Kiesel does offers a policy of no-questions-asked return on most custom builds.
Others brands do not, virtual builder or not. Their return rate is by definition 0 .


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> Others brands do not, virtual builder or not. Their return rate is by definition 0 .



I've seen you say this a lot, and as someone who has worked at and with dealers for custom instruments from a large range of builders, it's not entirely accurate to say "0", not by a long shot.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> I've seen you say this a lot, and as someone who has worked at and with dealers for custom instruments from a large range of builders, it's not entirely accurate to say "0", not by a long shot.



It's not me saying it. All the other examples quoted above (Balaguer, Halo, or the Dealers for Custom ESPs/TAs/Suhrs etc), it's the builder or dealer explicitly saying that they have a 0-return policy on anything custom. It's right there on their websites and order forms.

Not saying exceptions _never _happen - that's being facetious of course. I'll take that back if you want. I'm sure there have been _exception _cases of a dealer taking back something. But if there are such returns, then as matter of policy (unlike Kiesel) they certainly are _exceptions_, not the rule. And I know you have way more experience than I'll ever have, know the industry well, and could easily get on the good side of a dealer....but that's far from everyone, and at least as far as I'm concerned, I have never seen anything close to "no questions asked".


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> It's not me saying it. All the other examples quoted above (Balaguer, Halo, or the Dealers for Custom ESPs/TAs/Suhrs etc), it's the builder or dealer explicitly saying that they have a 0-return policy on anything custom. It's right there on their websites and order forms.
> 
> Not saying exceptions _never _happen - that's being facetious of course. I'll take that back if you want. I'm sure there have been _exception _cases of a dealer taking back something. But if there are such returns, then as matter of policy (unlike Kiesel) they certainly are _exceptions_, not the rule. And I know you have way more experience than I'll ever have, know the industry well, and could easily get on the good side of a dealer....but that's far from everyone, and at least as far as I'm concerned, I have never seen anything close to "no questions asked".



The only return I've never seen on that list is Balaguer, and that's probably because of how new/small they are.

Is it "no question" of course not. But I've see some pretty expensive, and _objectively_ perfect, guitars returned over "color isn't just right" or "the flame isn't really AAAAA" or "I thought ebony was supposed to be black" stuff like that.

The thing is, with most of these custom builders, they live and die by reputation and in the age of the internet, it's often better to let the return/exchange happen. Not to mention the return rates are very very small, there just aren't a lot of folks who invest a year plus and upwards of three or four grand to just walk away. Will folks do that? I'm sure there's some rich asshole who does that for fun. 

Kiesel though, where you're talking a matter of weeks, builds much lower in price, and plainly the fact that it's many folks' first custom or even first "nice" guitar, and you likely have a better shot of someone changing thier minds.

What is the return rate on Kiesels?


----------



## _MonSTeR_

In the UK, we have statutory rights and "The Consumer Rights Act 2015" which basically means if I order something and it turns out wrong, custom or not, the seller has to take a return, so if I order a blue guitar and they ship a green guitar, "0-returns" or not, i'm getting my money back. 

Does this sort of thing have a parallel in the US?


----------



## spudmunkey

_MonSTeR_ said:


> In the UK, we have statutory rights and "The Consumer Rights Act 2015" which basically means if I order something and it turns out wrong, custom or not, the seller has to take a return, so if I order a blue guitar and they ship a green guitar, "0-returns" or not, i'm getting my money back.
> 
> Does this sort of thing have a parallel in the US?



The issue isn't "blue vs green" that's generally the issue. It's more commonly things like, "the shade of blue in my home's lighting is darker than the shade of blue under your lighting in your photos". Or "my opinion is that I got a lower-grade upgraded wood than the higher-grade I specified". That's where it gets tricky, and can be subjective. Sometimes it's more clear than that, and a big reason it's recommended to use a credit card...the issuing bank tends to have more customer protections in place, but our consumer protecting laws in the US are nowhere near as robust as they are in UK/EU.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Right so a ‘I ordered a seven string and you sent me an eight string’ would still be a returnable guitar even where it’s a ‘no return’ option50 or what have you, but, ‘I ordered a turquoise 4a flame top and you sent me an aquamarine 4a flame top’ is where things go on the Internet forums


----------



## lurè

A proper builder should make everything so much easier and less prone to fuck things up.

You can check and double check as many times as you want before sending the order; with emails or phone calls the chances of forgetting things or general misunderstandings are quite high.

Clearer spec choiches should results in less returned guitars.


----------



## spudmunkey

Honestly, even if they just had a "spec guide", that would ease a lot of people's minds and help make many things clearer, even if they can't provide a virtual "mockup".

Interestingly, on carvinworld.com, their old international site, there was a PDF that was a combination of a catalog, and a series of pages that explained/showed many options. There was a page that had diagrams of the availble fretboard radii, there was a page that showed all of the headstocks, another that showed all of the logo options, one that showed the hardware colors, one that showed larger swatches of woods, etc.

Then, just add a page that shows how the various finish options work on the edges/bevels, and that could help SO male people.


----------



## laxu

Avedas said:


> Honestly from a technical perspective a builder is a weekend project. Maybe a bit more if you need to gather photos of all your different options, but it's not too complicated.



It really isn't. Looking at how Balaguer does it is pretty close to how I would do it. They have several layers and then map various textures and masks on top of each other. Not too difficult.

But you need to create a pretty big amount of assets to cover all the options and models. Creating that, mapping it and above all testing it takes more time thank a weekend. Then you have all the "this excludes this" type stuff that is model specific. While you could probably make something like that in say a month or two, it's still a big expense for the company when they have to hire consultants to do the development.


----------



## Seabeast2000

laxu said:


> It really isn't. Looking at how Balaguer does it is pretty close to how I would do it. They have several layers and then map various textures and masks on top of each other. Not too difficult.
> 
> But you need to create a pretty big amount of assets to cover all the options and models. Creating that, mapping it and above all testing it takes more time thank a weekend. Then you have all the "this excludes this" type stuff that is model specific. While you could probably make something like that in say a month or two, it's still a big expense for the company when they have to hire consultants to do the development.



Curious what a full revamp bid would look like. $100K? $20K?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Hey @spudmunkey and/or @mbardu, what does Kiesel's IT department look like?

Are we talking "someone's nephew that's good at the computers" or is there an actual staff? Figure they have to have someone on payroll who works on computers, being a primarily internet based business that uses computerized equipment.

I guess the real question is, do they do thier own web design and site maintenance or do they farm that out? I know my company does it somewhat 15/85 in split, with most functions farmed out to contractors. 

Outside of this whole virtual builder thing, I'm just curious.


----------



## bigcupholder

Seabeast2000 said:


> Curious what a full revamp bid would look like. $100K? $20K?


It depends on whether they can buy an off-the-shelf system and then only need to customize it to their models/options, or if they need to build the whole thing from scratch. The former should cost somewhere between the two numbers you mentioned. Programmers are expensive but good software is infinitely reusable.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> Hey @spudmunkey and/or @mbardu, what does Kiesel's IT department look like?
> 
> Are we talking "someone's nephew that's good at the computers" or is there an actual staff? Figure they have to have someone on payroll who works on computers, being a primarily internet based business that uses computerized equipment.
> 
> I guess the real question is, do they do thier own web design and site maintenance or do they farm that out? I know my company does it somewhat 15/85 in split, with most functions farmed out to contractors.
> 
> Outside of this whole virtual builder thing, I'm just curious.



The guy who runs the Carvinmuseum website is also their "webmaster" for their official site. He lives in the east coast (or st least used to). He's mentioned being willing to do more, but being held back by the site's existing overall framework, and the time he's able to spend (i assume limited by his mandate/contract). The site basically looks identical to what it looked like in 2008, with par-for-the-era minor-to-major aesthetic changes from 2005-2008, with things like adding preview thumbnails and descriptions to the In-Stock page (it used to just be a string of option codes and a price), andre- arranging the links on the home page from a "side bar" design, to what they have now. 

Somewhere around 2010, I remember there being a somewhat significant "back- of- house" update to the builder, but UI changes were minimal on purpose. One of the UI updates, though. Included those little pop-up preview thumbnails within the builder when you mouse over the radio buttons for some options. 

The site still seems like it's built as if it were optimized for 800x600 and 1024x768 monitors, though. 

Then there's the person who does their CNC programming, who i believe is a different person, and also a contractor.

That's all I _think_ I know.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> The guy who runs the Carvinmuseum website is also their "webmaster" for their official site. He lives in the east coast (or st least used to). He's mentioned being willing to do more, but being held back by the site's existing overall framework, and the time he's able to spend (i assume limited by his mandate/contract). The site basically looks identical to what it looked like in 2008, with par-for-the-era minor-to-major aesthetic changes from 2005-2008, with things like adding preview thumbnails and descriptions to the In-Stock page (it used to just be a string of option codes and a price), andre- arranging the links on the home page from a "side bar" design, to what they have now.
> 
> Somewhere around 2010, I remember there being a somewhat significant "back- of- house" update to the builder, but UI changes were minimal on purpose. One of the UI updates, though. Included those little pop-up preview thumbnails within the builder when you mouse over the radio buttons for some options.
> 
> The site still seems like it's built as if it were optimized for 800x600 and 1024x768 monitors, though.
> 
> Then there's the person who does their CNC programming, who i believe is a different person, and also a contractor.
> 
> That's all I _think_ I know.



tldr; 

Jeff Kiesel: "wHaT's An It DePaRtMeNt?"


----------



## iamaom

spudmunkey said:


> The site still seems like it's built as if it were optimized for 800x600 and 1024x768 monitors, though.


Whenever I want to hover over a color in the paint section it's off screen.


----------



## Seabeast2000

iamaom said:


> Whenever I want to hover over a color in the paint section it's off screen.


It's a Thinner neck profile. Trust us.


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> tldr;
> 
> Jeff Kiesel: "wHaT's An It DePaRtMeNt?"



To be clear, that's been the case since before he had major decision-making involvement.  they haven't had a "relevant" website for, what...20 years?



iamaom said:


> Whenever I want to hover over a color in the paint section it's off screen.



Yeah, you need to scroll down further so the option is higher up on the page so that when it pops up, it does in-screen. It seems to load about 10 lines down. But don't worry, it's probably because you're using Chrome....it's optimized for IE 6.0, and Netscape Navigator.


----------



## Miek

I'd wager an ibanez style neck heel would garner more buyers than an online visualizer at this point and that's just my  and definitely doesn't have anything to do with my opinion of their bolt on neck joints.


----------



## Selkoid

Miek said:


> I'd wager an ibanez style neck heel would garner more buyers than an online visualizer at this point and that's just my  and definitely doesn't have anything to do with my opinion of their bolt on neck joints.



Damn are they really that bad?


----------



## mbardu

Selkoid said:


> Damn are they really that bad?



Nah it's not bad.
It's solid and gives good access to high frets so it does what it's supposed to do.
It's not really the best design out there (could use some sort of internal "shelf" or other way to physically block it besides a pin), but still very good.

Most people (me included) just don't like how it looks, and it does look way less refined than AANJ/Suhr Modern types. Then again, the modern Tom Anderson neck joint (albeit with a superior design) also looks unnecessarily chonky so it needn't be a sign of quality.


----------



## Miek

It wouldn't stop me from buying one but i feel like it's very out of step with the rest of their hyper-modern designs. 

Maybe I'm crazy but I feel like it pushes me to look more at the neck-through models instead.


----------



## spudmunkey

I actually prefer the Kiesel heel to my old 90s S's AANJ, but the one corner at the lowest point could definitely use a rounding-off. They just need to keep enough "meat" around that screw hole, and I would think that'd be do-able....just round it over so there's the same amount as the other similar screw.





However, that would make the heel part on the end of the neck itself look chunky since it's symmetrical, so then they would need a separate program for right and left-handed necks. I suspect their design let's them use the same necks on both left and right handed guitars.


----------



## Hollowway

I agree with @spudmunkey about an options/spec list. There’s a build on reverb right now that had so many things I’ve never seen that it really made me wonder what all is NOT on the website as an option. I didn’t know you could get KRG colored bobbins, for instance. And I heard that hot pink was a color option for a long time that wasn’t on the builder. I know in theory they can do anything with an option 50, but if I’m going to order something I kind of what to know what the general options are before I’d decide if I really need to go completely off the reservation. As best as I can tell there are more color options, fade options, inlay options, etc than are listed.


----------



## Avedas

Hollowway said:


> I agree with @spudmunkey about an options/spec list. There’s a build on reverb right now that had so many things I’ve never seen that it really made me wonder what all is NOT on the website as an option. I didn’t know you could get KRG colored bobbins, for instance. And I heard that hot pink was a color option for a long time that wasn’t on the builder. I know in theory they can do anything with an option 50, but if I’m going to order something I kind of what to know what the general options are before I’d decide if I really need to go completely off the reservation. As best as I can tell there are more color options, fade options, inlay options, etc than are listed.


I think I remember Jeff saying they do this on purpose. Most people order from the basic set of options which is easy on their operations, but if you want something else you can always "call the guys". They're pretty open to entertaining ideas if you ask directly in my experience.


----------



## laxu

Avedas said:


> I think I remember Jeff saying they do this on purpose. Most people order from the basic set of options which is easy on their operations, but if you want something else you can always "call the guys". They're pretty open to entertaining ideas if you ask directly in my experience.



And depending on the case will also make those non-returnable for something like a different control layout. 

When I ordered my Aries AM7 I sent them my mockup and asked if they could find a darker red/brown piece of mahogany to use as I feel it would look better than the light color stuff they had on many builds. I don't know what they did if it's just a finish or if they used a darker piece but it looks great and cost me nothing extra.

When ordering from Kiesel it's best to always get your specs from the builder and then email them to a sales rep to ask any specifics you might have. I found that process worked really great with Chris Hong ([email protected]) and would recommend him if he still works there.

I'd try to avoid custom options as much as you can and consider what you can do yourself e.g. put in different pickups that Kiesel does not offer.


----------



## bracky

MaxOfMetal said:


> Is that something that happens IRL?
> 
> Do companies that provide virtual builders deal with higher return rates?



I’ve noticed many Kiesel customers get buyers remorse during the build time. They see something on Facebook or Instagram and start questioning their choices and already are specking the next build before the previous one is finished. With the nature of wood there is no way your super exotic build is going to look just like the builder representation. The grain lines will be different. There will be other subtle differences. This will concrete the idea in a customers head that they deserve a refund and can go ahead with what they actually wanted in the first place. Rinse and repeat.


----------



## Avedas

laxu said:


> And depending on the case will also make those non-returnable for something like a different control layout.
> 
> When I ordered my Aries AM7 I sent them my mockup and asked if they could find a darker red/brown piece of mahogany to use as I feel it would look better than the light color stuff they had on many builds. I don't know what they did if it's just a finish or if they used a darker piece but it looks great and cost me nothing extra.
> 
> When ordering from Kiesel it's best to always get your specs from the builder and then email them to a sales rep to ask any specifics you might have. I found that process worked really great with Chris Hong ([email protected]) and would recommend him if he still works there.
> 
> I'd try to avoid custom options as much as you can and consider what you can do yourself e.g. put in different pickups that Kiesel does not offer.


I definitely agree there. I worked with Keith for all of my builds. I had planned to change the pickups in both of my straight scale builds but I just went with the default options from Kiesel since it doesn't save you any money to send in your own pickups, and now I have an extra set of Lithiums or whatever.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

bracky said:


> I’ve noticed many Kiesel customers get buyers remorse during the build time. They see something on Facebook or Instagram and start questioning their choices and already are specking the next build before the previous one is finished. With the nature of wood there is no way your super exotic build is going to look just like the builder representation. The grain lines will be different. There will be other subtle differences. This will concrete the idea in a customers head that they deserve a refund and can go ahead with what they actually wanted in the first place. Rinse and repeat.



Yeah, but how many folks are actually returning guitars? 

There's less than 50 in-stocks right now, and that includes exhibition builds/protos and artist loaners (stuff that was never shipped to a customer to be returned), if they're making thousands of instruments a year, that doesn't seem like too many are returned at any given time. 

If the number is artificially low because they, the in-stocks, get snatched up quickly, then it doesn't seem like having some more would be a significant problem, more so if they're replaced with "second go" orders from the original purchaser.

Maybe they're sitting on tons of returns they haven't processed/posted, but I sort of doubt it. 

Other brands have virtual builders, I don't think if it contributed to significant returns they'd still have them up. 

Like most things like this, you're only going to see the edge cases being affected. The guy who is sooooooooooooooo close to pulling the trigger they just needed to see it come together, and the person who totally screwed up and needs to send it back ASAP. I don't see those being as much as 50% of Kiesel buyers like alluded to at times.


----------



## laxu

bracky said:


> I’ve noticed many Kiesel customers get buyers remorse during the build time. They see something on Facebook or Instagram and start questioning their choices and already are specking the next build before the previous one is finished.



I think that happens with many custom builds simply because of the time they take. I know for my Skervesen I thought I had figured out my specs very carefully but then I played with my mockup's finish a bit more and instead of a linear gradient I asked them to do a burst type gradient. The change was ok because the guitar had not gone into painting yet. The end result was much better than my original vision.


----------



## spudmunkey

Evertune is now (officially*) available on the Solo model (their Tele-shaped model). 6 and 7-string, 25.5 or 26.5" (for 6-string) or 27" (for 7-string).







*Officially because apparently their showroom sales guy mistakenly listed the first build on the in-stock and someone bought it, before it was actually meant to be unveiled. Ha!


----------



## kisielk

I keep seeing this on in-stock guitars, what's the deal? Did they just make them before they put this rule into place?

*RMN* - Roasted Maple Neck
*THNN* - Thinner Neck Profile (*not available with Roasted Neck options*)


----------



## spudmunkey

kisielk said:


> I keep seeing this on in-stock guitars, what's the deal? Did they just make them before they put this rule into place?
> 
> *RMN* - Roasted Maple Neck
> *THNN* - Thinner Neck Profile (*not available with Roasted Neck options*)



Yes. Same with headless neck-through with roasted necks, if there are any of those left

That HD6X in the Purple/Pink and Black crackle was one made for Namm 2020. https://www.facebook.com/kieselguitars/posts/2543537152596238

There were also recent-added examples of discontinued models, but, looking over the list, they seem to have all sold out. There were at least 4 DC127 models in there at one point within the last month.


----------



## kisielk

Yeah that makes sense. I bought my HF2 from the in stock section in June of last year which was after they had discontinued it...


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

spudmunkey said:


> Evertune is now (officially*) available on the Solo model (their Tele-shaped model). 6 and 7-string, 25.5 or 26.5" (for 6-string) or 27" (for 7-string).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Officially because apparently their showroom sales guy mistakenly listed the first build on the in-stock and someone bought it, before it was actually meant to be unveiled. Ha!


Well, someone likely got fired.


----------



## Jeff

Avedas said:


> I think I remember Jeff saying they do this on purpose. Most people order from the basic set of options which is easy on their operations, but if you want something else you can always "call the guys". They're pretty open to entertaining ideas if you ask directly in my experience.



I don’t think they should deviate at all from the options list. The option 50 shit is where there seems to be a lot of problems.


----------



## Avedas

Jeff said:


> I don’t think they should deviate at all from the options list. The option 50 shit is where there seems to be a lot of problems.


Maybe. Maybe not. All my builds were option 50 and I didn't have a single issue, but I also didn't order anything remotely "risky".


----------



## mbardu

Jeff said:


> I don’t think they should deviate at all from the options list. The option 50 shit is where there seems to be a lot of problems.



"A lot" is a big overstatement compared to the numbers of guitars they pump out.

They used to not deviate at all and offer way less options and flexibility- in order to avoid any issue and keep the "10-day trial" for everyone. But then people were complaining that they would not be flexible, or not have enough options. Now they allow a lot of extra options, a lot more possibilities, but with the much more frequent condition that "you waive your right to return if you pick that". And now naturally many people (not _all _people, and not the ones with legitimate issues, mind you) are unhappy because they want to pick all the options plus custom stuff, and yet take 0 risk and be able to return the same way regardless. You just can't win it all. 
But at the end of the day their business is way more successful now than it was then, so I suspect it will stay that way.

To your point though, it's still 100% possible _for the buyer_ to stay within the list of returnable options and not deviate from that; and that's still what I would recommend most of the times. Still way more possibilities than what most others offer anyway.


----------



## Hollowway

mbardu said:


> "A lot" is a big overstatement compared to the numbers of guitars they pump out.



So you think the majority of the problems are on the non-option 50 guitars? I would have assumed what Jeff said was true, as well.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Hollowway said:


> So you think the majority of the problems are on the non-option 50 guitars? I would have assumed what Jeff said was true, as well.



I think he just saw "lot" and "problems" in the same sentence and immediately flew off the handle.


----------



## spudmunkey

Pizza place: "Welcome to my new restaurant. We offer 12 different pizzas."

Customers: "That's OK, but it's not enough. Why don't you have mu shu pork pizzas or orange chicken pizzas?

Pizza place: "well...I guess I could make them if you really want them...but no refunds on those special pizzas."

Customers: "You didn't have 'no refunds' on these other 12 pizzas you offered yesterday. What's with all of the restrictions on everything all of a sudden!?"


----------



## MaxOfMetal

How often do folks take advantage of the return policy on flawless instruments? 

I keep asking, and I've done a bunch of searching, and I can't really find anything on this. 

How bad is the return rate? Are they getting back so many guitars that they need to be more stringent about what can be returned? 

The way you guys talk about it there should be a UPS truck full of returns every day.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> Pizza place: "Welcome to my new restaurant. We offer 12 different pizzas."
> 
> Customers: "That's OK, but it's not enough. Why don't you have mu shu pork pizzas or orange chicken pizzas?
> 
> Pizza place: "well...I guess I could make them if you really want them...but no refunds on those special pizzas."
> 
> Customers: "You didn't have 'no refunds' on these other 12 pizzas you offered yesterday. What's with all of the restrictions on everything all of a sudden!?"



I think that’s why the original option 50 was invented. And my sense is that no one has a problem with the option 50 policy. I think the points of contention is that the option 50 list is expanding to include a lot of normal things now. Including what appear to be standard builds. I might be wrong, but that seems to be what I hear as criticism from people. 
And I’m kind of like Max oh this. I just don’t see many returns happening. That “in stock” page gets precious few additions to it. If returns were a problem, then you’d think there would be more of a selection. So I’m not sure why the addition of more things under the option 50 header. But maybe I just don’t see the whole picture.


----------



## mbardu

Hollowway said:


> So you think the majority of the problems are on the non-option 50 guitars? I would have assumed what Jeff said was true, as well.





MaxOfMetal said:


> I think he just saw "lot" and "problems" in the same sentence and immediately flew off the handle.



Interestingly, every time I say anything there's a couple of people jumping on it and it's me who's supposedly immediately flying off the handle...

If you need it spelled out, I'm not a native speaker, but I believe that "a lot" and "a majority of" don't mean the same thing.
Does the majority of issues come from option 50 / custom / non returnable stuff? Sure.
Does that mean it's a lot? No it doesn't when you look at actual number of issues vs number of instruments produced, even those option-50 ones.
Does that mean they should stop with those options? Well that part is up for debate I guess.

If I take the original "_I don’t think they should deviate at all from the options list. The option 50 shit is where there seems to be a lot of problems_" I can turn that into other examples, like "_I don't think Porsche should deviate at all from gas cars. The electric shit is where there seems to be a lot of problems with 800V batteries_", it's the same argument.
Well first of all, or course the majority of problems would come from where there is potential for problem at all. Traditional Porsches aren't going to have too many issues with their 800V batteries for sure  . But even those Taycans that have issues are few and far between and certainly not a lot. And certainly not a lot to decide they shouldn't try to offer that stuff at all.


----------



## mbardu

Hollowway said:


> I think that’s why the original option 50 was invented. And my sense is that no one has a problem with the option 50 policy. I think the points of contention is that the option 50 list is expanding to include a lot of normal things now. Including what appear to be standard builds. I might be wrong, but that seems to be what I hear as criticism from people.



If you count things like poplar tops and raw tone finishes as "standard" then yeah, you could get the impression.
But I'd say those are still not a majority, no matter how they push them on social media.
If you go through their builder for a normal/standard guitar, it's not going to suddenly become non-returnable.

When you go through that, the only option-50 stuff I know of at the moment are that raw tone option, some limited-supply woods, and some "less predictable" finishes like crackle. Might sound like a lot, but that's maybe 10 out of hundreds of other possibilities, so they're pretty easy to "avoid". They have had more stuff non returnable in the past too, but then when it becomes more popular, sometimes they relax the rule. Roasted maple comes to mind, purpleheart or others too, as well as some of their burst finishes.

At the end of the day, there are many more possibilities that are non-returnable than 10 years ago and they're easier to get to. That I agree with.
But there are even more options of returnable stuff that did not even exist 10 years ago. And that you can still combine with the options that already existed then. So at least in that area of the business (I wouldn't say the same for others such as service...) it does sounds like a net positive IMHO.



Hollowway said:


> I just don’t see many returns happening. That “in stock” page gets precious few additions to it. If returns were a problem, then you’d think there would be more of a selection. So I’m not sure why the addition of more things under the option 50 header. But maybe I just don’t see the whole picture.



I don't think there are tons of returns either. But it does look like new management is still trying to get _even less_; trying to be strict just for the sake of being strict or trying to increase margins further and further. Same as some of the bad customer service decisions we've been seeing where a simple goodwill gesture costing them 50 bucks might have saved from a lot of drama. Smells of poorly though out and unnecessary nickel and diming sometimes.
I don't particularly like that direction of the business and at least as far as I'm concerned I only recommend new orders from them if you're going for something standard and returnable. Still recommend them mind you, as the quality and value is there for some of their stuff...but with caveats that didn't exist a few year back and also more competition depending on the case.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> How often do folks take advantage of the return policy on flawless instruments?
> 
> I keep asking, and I've done a bunch of searching, and I can't really find anything on this.
> 
> How bad is the return rate? Are they getting back so many guitars that they need to be more stringent about what can be returned?
> 
> The way you guys talk about it there should be a UPS truck full of returns every day.



Return doesn't have much to do with flawless or not flawless. 
I've returned a multiscale from them because I didn't like the multiscale (too long for me on lower strings). 
I returned a CT7 because even though the guitar was flawless, the Carved Top + 7-string concept didn't work for me in the end.
I returned a Contour 66 because I ended up regretting the finish choices, but ended up later ordering two others more to my taste that I did not return.

Plenty of reasons that have no real link with the objective quality of the instruments.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> Return doesn't have much to do with flawless or not flawless.
> I've returned a multiscale from them because I didn't like the multiscale (too long for me on lower strings).
> I returned a CT7 because even though the guitar was flawless, the Carved Top + 7-string concept didn't work for me in the end.
> I returned a Contour 66 because I ended up regretting the finish choices, but ended up later ordering two others more to my taste that I did not return.
> 
> Plenty of reasons that have no real link with the objective quality of the instruments.



That wasn't the specific question or framing intended.

The impression given by some folks is that use of the "10 day no questions asked" return policy is rampant in cases of buyer's remorse* vs. having a guitar with a defect.

I'm just trying to ascertain just how rampant this is...or isn't, and what that looks like big picture.

If abuse of the return policy is being used to justify it's limitations, I'm just curious what those numbers look like. I respect that it's Kiesel's prerogative as far as how they run their business. If they want zero returns, that's fine too. It's thier ball in thier game. 

*That includes just not liking the particular guitar or configuration regardless of how objectively well it's made.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> That wasn't the specific question or framing intended.
> 
> The impression given by some folks is that use of the "10 day no questions asked" return policy is rampant in cases of buyer's remorse* vs. having a guitar with a defect.
> 
> I'm just trying to ascertain just how rampant this is...or isn't, and what that looks like big picture.
> 
> If abuse of the return policy is being used to justify it's limitations, I'm just curious what those numbers look like. I respect that it's Kiesel's prerogative as far as how they run their business. If they want zero returns, that's fine too. It's thier ball in thier game.
> 
> *That includes just not liking the particular guitar or configuration regardless of how objectively well it's made.



And I don't think it's that many / or very rampant. I used to receive their email notification when new guitars came in stock, and it was something like maybe 20 guitars a month IIRC. In there often you also have artist guitars, show guitars (when NAMM was a thing), internal builds by Mike Jones, special series (numbers, sparkles, new model showcases...) that eats into those 20. Maybe it's more recently, I wouldn't know. Maybe not all returns make it to the in-stock...but I can tell you that all of mine plus a couple of others I know about did make it there, so it certainly doesn't sound too far off. All in all, I doubt we get even close to double digit percentage.

As a result, I wouldn't really think it's necessarily sheer numbers or abuse that is motivating them to limit returns on some things.
I don't think it's a matter of losing much $$$ either. Most of the non-returnable stuff - poplar burls or raw tones sell super quick in the in-stock section.

Maybe it's more of a general desire to streamline operations from a business standpoint (more done deals less back and forth situations with rebuilds and refunds), and they do produce way more guitars more quickly now. And they don't _need _to be so flexible anymore. What used to be a pretty good "you can't try our guitars in store so just get one and if don't like it, just return it" proposition wouldn't even be needed anymore. I'd wager a good chunk of sales volumes in guitars is driven by social media and hype more so than actually trying the instruments, and they have that part going for them. In fact, a couple of years back I wouldn't have said that, but I wouldn't be surprised if at some point they even remove the "10-day trial" altogether. After all, they even discontinued the DC127 so anything can happen


----------



## xeno99

I'm thinking about a Kiesel Leia L6. Would be my first headless.

It's very hard to pick a finish if they only have one in stock.

That Balaguer virtual builder is very nice in comparison.


----------



## mbardu

xeno99 said:


> I'm thinking about a Kiesel Leia L6. Would be my first headless.
> 
> It's very hard to pick a finish if they only have one in stock.
> 
> That Balaguer virtual builder is very nice in comparison.



The Leia sure is tempting.
Are you interested in seeing more examples of Leias in various finishes? There are 4 in various finishes in the in stock section right now with different finishes.
A bunch more with google too like here, here, here, here....

Sure not as convenient as Balaguer though, that's for sure.


----------



## xeno99

There's even a gallery page linked on the Leila product page. (Image on right under the twitter button)

I overlooked min. three times. Kiesel web design is really something special.


----------



## ScottThunes1960

Every year or so that I wonder what Kiesel/Carvin are up to, I make the mistake of clicking this thread and seeing the latest incarnation of Jeffbro flinging his shit...and it turns me off from the brand for another year.

At this point, I hope there’s some under the table deal and that we’re not really dealing with a crazy person who think Jeff Kiesel is his dad. But he’s achieving the opposite of what he thinks he’s doing by alienating anyone who clicks the thread wondering what the latest offerings are. And I don’t see how anyone manages to navigate that hideous website - Is Instagram/Facebook where they announce everything, or what? I just want to see/read about their new guitars.


----------



## Avedas

ScottThunes1960 said:


> Every year or so that I wonder what Kiesel/Carvin are up to, I make the mistake of clicking this thread and seeing the latest incarnation of Jeffbro flinging his shit...and it turns me off from the brand for another year.
> 
> At this point, I hope there’s some under the table deal and that we’re not really dealing with a crazy person who think Jeff Kiesel is his dad. But he’s achieving the opposite of what he thinks he’s doing by alienating anyone who clicks the thread wondering what the latest offerings are. And I don’t see how anyone manages to navigate that hideous website - Is Instagram/Facebook where they announce everything, or what? I just want to see/read about their new guitars.


wut


----------



## ScottThunes1960

Avedas said:


> wut



LOL well if it’s just me that occasionally clicks the thread and is like “Uh...what is this person even arguing for four pages over the course of *days*”, then I might just be unlucky about when I click it.


----------



## D-EJ915

It was funny I watched a Q&A on youtube with Jeff and somebody asked something about adding customer pictures to the website he was like nah our website is trash so that's not going to happen lol. Based on that I don't feel like they feel like updating the website at all.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

The website isn't _that_ bad. It's definitely not great, but folks are acting like it's a 90's GeoCities.


----------



## Hollowway

mbardu said:


> Return doesn't have much to do with flawless or not flawless.
> I've returned a multiscale from them because I didn't like the multiscale (too long for me on lower strings).
> I returned a CT7 because even though the guitar was flawless, the Carved Top + 7-string concept didn't work for me in the end.
> I returned a Contour 66 because I ended up regretting the finish choices, but ended up later ordering two others more to my taste that I did not return.
> 
> Plenty of reasons that have no real link with the objective quality of the instruments.



I think the take home message here is that YOU’RE the reason they’re tightening up their return policy.


----------



## Dayn

MaxOfMetal said:


> The website isn't _that_ bad. It's definitely not great, but folks are acting like it's a 90's GeoCities.


It's gotta be an early 00's Homestead, at least.


----------



## binz

Disclaimer: I'm more windowshopping here than at a point where I would pull the trigger.
As a long term goal, I really want a pink sparkle strat. Since these are not commonly found, I will probably have to go with a custom order somewhere. Kiesel seems to be the most affordable option and I am wondering how this goes down in practise.
* How long does an order usually take? I would want something like a D6X with pink sparkle finish. Nothing crazy elsewise
* Importing to the EU means customs and taxes. I know in Germany it should be like 4.5% and 19% on the total of product and shipping. What is the experience for other EU Kiesel owners? Is there even a way to bypass it?
* Where can I find prizes, or is the listing price (e.g. for the D6X 1299$) including all options?

Sorry in advance, I guess these questions have been posed and answered a million times, but either I am too stupid or there is no option to search inside a thread.


----------



## mbardu

binz said:


> Disclaimer: I'm more windowshopping here than at a point where I would pull the trigger.
> As a long term goal, I really want a pink sparkle strat. Since these are not commonly found, I will probably have to go with a custom order somewhere. Kiesel seems to be the most affordable option and I am wondering how this goes down in practise.
> * How long does an order usually take? I would want something like a D6X with pink sparkle finish. Nothing crazy elsewise
> * Importing to the EU means customs and taxes. I know in Germany it should be like 4.5% and 19% on the total of product and shipping. What is the experience for other EU Kiesel owners? Is there even a way to bypass it?
> * Where can I find prizes, or is the listing price (e.g. for the D6X 1299$) including all options?
> 
> Sorry in advance, I guess these questions have been posed and answered a million times, but either I am too stupid or there is no option to search inside a thread.




Building a guitar should take 2 to 3 months at the moment. One thing with sparkles is that it is a difficult and "rare" finish so it can be a little more time-consuming (they like to wait and do in batches). 
You're unlikely to find a way to bypass taxes into the EU. Some people have reported that taxes are only assessed on the base price of the guitar though, so you may at least save a little bit there because...and that's your last point
Not all options are included. 1299$ is only a base price and you can see some options from the archaic "guitar builder" link on the product page https://www.kieselguitars.com/catalog/guitars/d6 . I don't believe sparkle is listed, and IIRC, it's a 600$ option. Yep, very expensive. If you have patience, they do sometimes have runs or promos where the price of that is cut in half. Not guaranteed though, and you could be waiting forever.
Like you said there are not a ton of alternatives though. 
And considering the price of even import guitars, the Kiesel even at 1799 (1299+600-100 of "free options" they give you) is still pretty good. The quality will be there for sure.
I think Edwards has made, or is making a pink Snapper, but that's hard to come by, may not be much cheaper if at all, and will lack things like stainless steel frets. 

Wildcard option: find a _used _Kiesel Delos, or an older Carvin Bolt for under 1k$/*€*, and have _that _refinished in pink sparkle locally?


----------



## spudmunkey

binz said:


> * Where can I find prizes, or is the listing price (e.g. for the D6X 1299$) including all options?



On the right side of that page, there is a green button that says "GUITAR BUILDER - Build and order this guitar". This opens up a pop-up window that will list out some of the available options, along with the price for each option. (Note: there are cross-out numbers indicating a sale...but this "sale" has been running for years and years). After you've gone though page-by-page and selected your options, you are shown a final price when you add it to your cart.

A couple additional and important notes:
1) This builder is just a streamlined experience. Many of their flashiest options are not available online. There are many options only by calling, or emailing/messaging with one of the salespeople. 
2) You can still use this, though, to get a rough estimate on how much the build would cost aside from those final couple of options. You'll be able to pick from all of their body woods, neck woods, fret material and sizes, fretboard radius, inlays, headstock shape, bridge options, and several of their pickup options (not all, but enough to give you a rough budget/idea), etc.
3) If you have one guitar in your cart and want to try building out another to compare, you should take a screenshot of the one in your cart, then clear your cart. Their builder often has a hard time with multiple guitars where it'll duplicate options, drop some off, switch an option from one guitar to the other. Just clear your cart before starting another one.


----------



## bigcupholder

My experience a couple months ago was that you only pay import tax on the base price, because that's what they mark as the value. This was for Canada, but I see no reason why the EU would be different. So if you're adding expensive options like a sparkle finish, you save a lot on the tax.

Metallic finishes are $100. Sparkle is $600 IIRC because the sparkle goes everywhere and they have to completely clean out the paint room before they can do other finishes again. It's like a glitter bomb apparently. Maybe consider metallic?


----------



## binz

*Thanks a lot!*
Those comments helped a lot for a complete kiesel noob! I didnt see / find / look for the "builder" (wow what a horrible experience this website is ).
I would have been very surprised if the special finishes, especially sparkle, wasnt an extra fee. 600 is quite a lot indeed though.
I'm not in a rush, more checking what are the options if I ever feel worthy of fulfilling this dream.

Non-sparkle pink can also work. Ryan Siew has a really cool mayones regius in pink. But I'd love the look of that guitar in any finish probably. Most pink guitars I've seen so far are close on (or over) the edge to cringe and its hard to find something that is aesthetically pleasing.

Back in the day when I played drums I had a yamaha beech custom in hot pink sparkle (found it used online) and _loved_ that finish and wanted something similar on a guitar one day. Maybe in the end it will be easier to find a good base model (any brand) and find somebody that does good paintjobs around. Though I must say I quite like the aesthetics of those kiesel strats (similarly also to the ibanez AZs)


----------



## mbardu

binz said:


> *Thanks a lot!*
> Those comments helped a lot for a complete kiesel noob! I didnt see / find / look for the "builder" (wow what a horrible experience this website is ).
> I would have been very surprised if the special finishes, especially sparkle, wasnt an extra fee. 600 is quite a lot indeed though.
> I'm not in a rush, more checking what are the options if I ever feel worthy of fulfilling this dream.
> 
> Non-sparkle pink can also work. Ryan Siew has a really cool mayones regius in pink. But I'd love the look of that guitar in any finish probably. Most pink guitars I've seen so far are close on (or over) the edge to cringe and its hard to find something that is aesthetically pleasing.
> 
> Back in the day when I played drums I had a yamaha beech custom in hot pink sparkle (found it used online) and _loved_ that finish and wanted something similar on a guitar one day. Maybe in the end it will be easier to find a good base model (any brand) and find somebody that does good paintjobs around. Though I must say I quite like the aesthetics of those kiesel strats (similarly also to the ibanez AZs)



Those AZs are very nice too, even the premium ones. Sometimes _even more so_ the premiums. I personally hate their headstocks, but solid guitars - plus I believe their pricing is better in Europe. Refinishing on of those sounds like a good option too!


----------



## soliloquy

binz said:


> Disclaimer: I'm more windowshopping here than at a point where I would pull the trigger.
> As a long term goal, I really want a pink sparkle strat. Since these are not commonly found, I will probably have to go with a custom order somewhere. Kiesel seems to be the most affordable option and I am wondering how this goes down in practise.
> * How long does an order usually take? I would want something like a D6X with pink sparkle finish. Nothing crazy elsewise
> * Importing to the EU means customs and taxes. I know in Germany it should be like 4.5% and 19% on the total of product and shipping. What is the experience for other EU Kiesel owners? Is there even a way to bypass it?
> * Where can I find prizes, or is the listing price (e.g. for the D6X 1299$) including all options?
> 
> Sorry in advance, I guess these questions have been posed and answered a million times, but either I am too stupid or there is no option to search inside a thread.



its not the same pink that you've pictured above, but these are also sparkly and not the carvin/kiesel route. maybe a different option?





















the pinks here have a very subtle sparkle in them and they shimmer under certain lights. 
maybe worth a shot through Charvel, as they are readily available, and return policy might be more friendly?


----------



## binz

https://reverb.com/item/37669141-kiesel-delos-2020-trans-orange-sparkle






Thats pretty much what I am looking for minus orange plus pink. He included screenshots of the option prices (good guy steve) and apparently sparkle finishes are 400$ extra (I am so far from placing an order that I wouldnt want to waste their time writing an email asking about the exact sparkle price atm).


----------



## mbardu

binz said:


> https://reverb.com/item/37669141-kiesel-delos-2020-trans-orange-sparkle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thats pretty much what I am looking for minus orange plus pink. He included screenshots of the option prices (good guy steve) and apparently sparkle finishes are 400$ extra (I am so far from placing an order that I wouldnt want to waste their time writing an email asking about the exact sparkle price atm).



Hot guitar, but what a dumb price


----------



## spudmunkey

I think he got some sort of discount on his metal flake finish. In the 2020 Presidents' day sale, silver metal flake was availble for $300, and that was a $300 discount.

Oh, and to be clear, it's $600 for the metal flake, and then $40 for the trans finish (or higher if going for a custom non-standard color).


----------



## DiezelMonster

mbardu said:


> Hot guitar, but what a dumb price




Wow, I want to know where that dude get's his crack, because I need to smoke some of that! hahaha that price is insane!


----------



## Hollowway

Well, this is the era of used prices being higher than new. Did you see the Ibby prestige in Doom Burst for $2500? That's way more than it was new (and, despite what the ad says, it is not "rare). 

That is a hot guitar, though. I personally love those flake finishes.


----------



## John

mbardu said:


> Hot guitar, but what a dumb price



Yeah, the asking price for that particular guitar is straight up delusional. Even with the "discount" and the seemingly out of control prices of things in the used market these days.


----------



## spudmunkey

"Yeah, but you save on the wait time."


----------



## Metal Mortician

Happy to sell stuff while the used market is going strong. Getting divorced helps that.

Perhaps it’s time to embrace minimalism.


----------



## Hollowway

I know. I have a couple guitars I know I could sell for a tidy sum, but at the same time I don’t want to. So I don’t think I will. 

The good news is that Kiesels are looking like crazy good deals new, now. No more settling for specs that you wouldn’t have chosen, given that the people selling are asking for too dollar. I still want one of those 7 string basses, so I may have to suck it up and order one.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> . I still want one of those 7 string basses, so I may have to suck it up and order one.



If/when the time comes, make sure to talk to your salesperson (likely Kieth, since I think he's their "bass" guy) about your desired string gauges. I've seen some people mention the ferrules and saddles weren't what they were expecting. I *think* the point of contention was whether the highest string got a bass string or a low guitar stringtsaddle/ferrule. I think the issue is that someone just didn't know what they were going to receive, and it wasn't what they were expecting. I may have some of those details wrong, but just know that it's something that's come up for a couple of people.


----------



## lurè

Any news regarding the LSM7? I see on the website it's still a "call my guys" model. Are there any updates?


----------



## rabidwolverine214

New Kiesel day for me. They have absolutely killed it with my two custom orders. HD6 with a 5A Flame top and Pale Moon Board


----------



## spudmunkey

New multiscale 7-string UltraV model:


----------



## Ataraxia2320

One of the nicer kiesels I've seen tbh.


----------



## spudmunkey

rabidwolverine214 said:


> New Kiesel day for me. They have absolutely killed it with my two custom orders. HD6 with a 5A Flame top and Pale Moon Board
> View attachment 93287



Nice. I would love a Delos some day, but go between the D and HD in my head all the time.


----------



## rabidwolverine214

Having played strats for a long time, I thought about getting a delos, but the compact feel of the HD is amazing. In my opinion, it makes a strat feel massive and cumbersome by comparison.


----------



## xzacx

As much as I don't care for the upside-down Rhoades shape in general, the multi-scale works really well with the overall look and angles. I'm pretty impressed with this.


----------



## Mathemagician

spudmunkey said:


> New multiscale 7-string UltraV model:
> View attachment 93288
> View attachment 93289





xzacx said:


> As much as I don't care for the upside-down Rhoades shape in general, the multi-scale works really well with the overall look and angles. I'm pretty impressed with this.



Yeah this shape really works as a multiscale with that reverse headstock.


----------



## spudmunkey

This particular was built as a sort of proof-of-concept before building one with higher-end specs for a long-time customer who already owns 10 Carvins/Kiesels, with one if these and another of something else in the oven right now.

The body looks larger than the one from the standard Ultra V7 (which was discontinued a couple of years ago, yet is still amusingly the model shown in the thumbnail for the 6-string UltraV on their "guitars" page.)


----------



## Hollowway

rabidwolverine214 said:


> New Kiesel day for me. They have absolutely killed it with my two custom orders. HD6 with a 5A Flame top and Pale Moon Board
> View attachment 93287



Yeah, but they left off a couple of strings! 

Sweet PME, though. And I'm so glad you didn't get a competing wood for a top wood, like buckeye burl. This is tasteful. What's the other build you got?


----------



## thrsher

I would love a baritone 7 V. This might just open that door now. I ordered a crescent 8 with option 50 last month. Not the first time I've used option 50 on an order. Never had a problem with a carvin/kiesel so far


----------



## rabidwolverine214

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, but they left off a couple of strings!
> 
> Sweet PME, though. And I'm so glad you didn't get a competing wood for a top wood, like buckeye burl. This is tasteful. What's the other build you got?





My first build was an HD6 with single piece raw tone ash body and royal ebony board. They make a stunning simple guitar if that’s what you’re going for.


----------



## mlp187

Metal Mortician said:


> Happy to sell stuff while the used market is going strong. Getting divorced helps that.
> 
> Perhaps it’s time to embrace minimalism.


Ouch, that’s rough. I hope you have a good 3rd party to talk to, as a sounding board at a minimum, a counselor at best. I’m rooting for you.


----------



## Avedas

I need to get something with a PME board someday. That looks awesome.


----------



## Hollowway

The only thing I don’t like about the Delos headless 6s is the body looks tubby. But maybe I’m just used to looking at 8s.


----------



## Hollowway

@spudmunkey so are these multiscale ultra V7s going to be for sale? Or is it just a one off for this particular customer? If they’re going to be available, I’m wondering what the price will be.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> @spudmunkey so are these multiscale ultra V7s going to be for sale? Or is it just a one off for this particular customer? If they’re going to be available, I’m wondering what the price will be.



It's available now via call-in. Not sure what their plans on for the website. My guess is that the pricing will be $250 more than their current 6- string UltraV, so $1799 ($50 of that for the extra string, and $200 is their normal multiscale premium (for models available both waysl). It *could* be a little more than that because they have said to expect a 7/1 price increase. They might price this one higher initially to get ahead of that so they don't have to raise its price in a month and a half.


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> New multiscale 7-string UltraV model:
> View attachment 93288
> View attachment 93289


That actually looks super badass and that's coming from someone who only likes S type bodies. Something about that multiscale just works with that shape and headstock. Well done Kiesel, well done


----------



## spudmunkey

A new photo of it:


----------



## spudmunkey

I think one thing that helps it, IMO, is that it looks like they not only lengthened both points slightly, but they increased the difference between the two, by making the longer point even longer in comparison.


----------



## bigcupholder

spudmunkey said:


> I think one thing that helps it, IMO, is that it looks like they not only lengthened both points slightly, but they increased the difference between the two, by making the longer point even longer in comparison.
> View attachment 93385


I'm not sure it's actually different... If the one on the right is turned even slightly, it'd explain the different lengths.


----------



## spudmunkey

bigcupholder said:


> I'm not sure it's actually different... If the one on the right is turned even slightly, it'd explain the different lengths.


 An exceppent point. I did look to see if I could see any more of the one side vs the other on the body to see if it was twisted, but it didn't appear to be, and even looking at the headstock, if anything, the blue "old" one looks like it's twisted in a way that would make it's longer horn appear longer, so the opposite of how it measures out...but then is the black one tilted back more, so that by aligning the scales is the body out of proportion? It could be. I'm not sure the extra tilt that could be there would add this much to it, but maybe.


----------



## Hollowway

Honestly, this is one of the first Kiesel designs I like. I doubt it was intentional, but the angle of the bridge matching the edge of the short wing make it look much better than the straight fretted version. It’s these little things that I think make or break a design.


----------



## technomancer

Still in the flip the body and it would be really cool camp on these designs


----------



## spudmunkey

Forgive the shoddy photoshoppery: (I'm one of those weirdos who still prefers the longer lower point of Kiesel's/Carvin's long-running V design)



vs


----------



## Mathemagician

Well yeah. The Rhoads style wing layout is always top tier. Can’t beat that. And now I want it. So bad.


----------



## CanserDYI

Uh yeah, that body flipped with multiscale and that headstock is pure sex and I don't like V's.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

I would buy a Kiesel rhoads. The ultra V though it does look better with that headstock and the fanned frets is still really ugly.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

If they ever actually released a rhoads type V I would 100% order one.


----------



## danbox

Are all the satin wood grain finishes not returnable? That’s like the primary reason I want a kiesel


----------



## spudmunkey

danbox said:


> Are all the satin wood grain finishes not returnable? That’s like the primary reason I want a kiesel



With just about any of their paint finishes, you can get them in gloss, satin, or their raw tone satin (which is the one that has the grain texture). The raw tone satin skips primer, may also be fewer coats of the paint, and then a thinner/softer clear finish on top. That last one is the one that doesn't retain the 10-day trial. If you just wanted clear, you could go with all-tung oil, which also still retains the 10-day trial.

The exception is specific artist signature models because that's the only way it comes (Johnny Highland and Dustin Davidson models, for example)


----------



## spudmunkey

From the recent fund-raising campaign for Jason Becker:


----------



## bigcupholder

... Wow that's a lot of bottles


----------



## spudmunkey

bigcupholder said:


> ... Wow that's a lot of bottles


...for someone just out of rehab...


----------



## dr_game0ver

spudmunkey said:


> ...for someone just out of rehab...


That's the one he didn't drank.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Is that the Metalliclubhouse?


----------



## IbanezDaemon

spudmunkey said:


> From the recent fund-raising campaign for Jason Becker:
> 
> View attachment 93705
> View attachment 93707
> View attachment 93708
> View attachment 93709
> View attachment 93710



Both just sold on Reverb. I really hope they didn't go to that uber flipper in the UK 'cos they will be up for sale at X5 the Reverb price soon.


----------



## mastapimp

spudmunkey said:


> ...for someone just out of rehab...


They're probably signing all sorts of shit while they're all together. They launched that "Blackened" whiskey around the time James was dealing with his recent rehab stint. It was odd hearing Howard Stern wishing James well then going into a commercial break promoting Metallica-branded booze.


----------



## spudmunkey

IbanezDaemon said:


> Both just sold on Reverb. I really hope they didn't go to that uber flipper in the UK 'cos they will be up for sale at X5 the Reverb price soon.


I hadn't seen them listed yet. Were they going for 25k? I thought that's what it was, and surprised it was that low. Satriani's guitar was listed for $80k, and that seems to have sold, too.


----------



## IbanezDaemon

spudmunkey said:


> I hadn't seen them listed yet. Were they going for 25k? I thought that's what it was, and surprised it was that low. Satriani's guitar was listed for $80k, and that seems to have sold, too.



Yeah. I saw them up at £18,000 (British) equivalent to $25k with a 'Make offer' option. Satch one at the price you quoted above....it sold pretty quickly as well. There were 5 or 6 up and they all went apart from the Jeff Loomis signed Pro Series. Maybe that has now gone as well....must have a look.


----------



## spudmunkey

IbanezDaemon said:


> Yeah. I saw them up at £18,000 (British) equivalent to $25k with a 'Make offer' option. Satch one at the price you quoted above....it sold pretty quickly as well. There were 5 or 6 up and they all went apart from the Jeff Loomis signed Pro Series. Maybe that has now gone as well....must have a look.



Yep, that sold to. Store's empty.
https://reverb.com/shop/jason-becker-shop


----------



## Wc707

https://www.guitarworld.com/news/sc...om&utm_content=guitar-world&utm_medium=social


----------



## mbardu

Wc707 said:


> https://www.guitarworld.com/news/sc...om&utm_content=guitar-world&utm_medium=social


----------



## spudmunkey

Wc707 said:


> https://www.guitarworld.com/news/sc...om&utm_content=guitar-world&utm_medium=social



To reiterate (even though it IS in the article, i've seen a lot of comments miss it):



the article said:


> “Big shout to Will Lunden for designing and creating this board, and Dave at Equilibrium Guitars for installing it in my favorite guitar!



Side note, as a furniture guy, it pains me to see they went with the light brown felt "woolie" under the sofa leg on the right, rather than a dark brown or black one.


----------



## xzacx

Wow, I had to hit stop as soon as the vocals started, but glad I got to see a little prior to that. It's kinda ridiculous, but kinda super cool too. I imagine a more refined version would come eventually. It'll be interesting to see how it could be utilized between a performance effect vs a learning tool too.


----------



## bigcupholder

xzacx said:


> Wow, I had to hit stop as soon as the vocals started, but glad I got to see a little prior to that. It's kinda ridiculous, but kinda super cool too. I imagine a more refined version would come eventually. It'll be interesting to see how it could be utilized between a performance effect vs a learning tool too.


Yeah I watched with the sound off. It's djenty emo. The vocals are awful.


----------



## spudmunkey

xzacx said:


> Wow, I had to hit stop as soon as the vocals started, but glad I got to see a little prior to that. It's kinda ridiculous, but kinda super cool too. I imagine a more refined version would come eventually. It'll be interesting to see how it could be utilized between a performance effect vs a learning tool too.



By the time the patent is approved and someone figures out a way to mass-produce it, someone in China will have microLED LCD display panel fretboards, capable of playing high-res video, available on AliExpress.


----------



## pahulkster

Fretlight?


----------



## technomancer

Neat application of fret board LEDs (which people have been doing for years) and a cpu to run them. Actually surprised we haven't seen this before given the prevalence of Arduino lighting controls.


----------



## Albake21

As cool as an LED fretboard looks, I always thought it would be way too distracting to me when playing.


----------



## odibrom

Albake21 said:


> As cool as an LED fretboard looks, I always thought it would be way too distracting to me when playing.



I from what I saw, it can be painful and misleading to play with all that light show...


----------



## Hollowway

It could be cool to make a fretless instrument where the whole FB was like this. And it would light up different fret positions for different EDOs. I mean, you’d have to really be into microtonal stuff, but it would be one instrument to handle them all. I’m not sure I’d be into the random graphics like this, but there must be some cool, functional, uses.


----------



## Wc707

Hollowway said:


> It could be cool to make a fretless instrument where the whole FB was like this. And it would light up different fret positions for different EDOs. I mean, you’d have to really be into microtonal stuff, but it would be one instrument to handle them all. I’m not sure I’d be into the random graphics like this, but there must be some cool, functional, uses.


Just imagination working here, but what if the fretboard represented a musical staff and the LEDs would light up in accordance to the note you played, and they're location on the staff?


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

soliloquy said:


> its not the same pink that you've pictured above, but these are also sparkly and not the carvin/kiesel route. maybe a different option?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the pinks here have a very subtle sparkle in them and they shimmer under certain lights.
> maybe worth a shot through Charvel, as they are readily available, and return policy might be more friendly?


All of those are sexy as hell.


----------



## Hollowway

Wc707 said:


> Just imagination working here, but what if the fretboard represented a musical staff and the LEDs would light up in accordance to the note you played, and they're location on the staff?


Yeah, that would be pretty cool, too! I’m trying to think of a use case where it could move this from a neat trick to something that would actually help.


----------



## Wc707

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, that would be pretty cool, too! I’m trying to think of a use case where it could move this from a neat trick to something that would actually help.


Heres an idea: it lists all the companies the artist is sponsored by haha


----------



## Hollowway

Wc707 said:


> Heres an idea: it lists all the companies the artist is sponsored by haha


 make it like nascar!


----------



## Seabeast2000

Hollowway said:


> make it like nascar!



We need professional player's shirts for all media appearances.


----------



## Wc707

Hollowway said:


> make it like nascar!


----------



## odibrom

Hollowway said:


> It could be cool to make a fretless instrument where the whole FB was like this. And it would light up different fret positions for different EDOs. I mean, you’d have to really be into microtonal stuff, but it would be one instrument to handle them all. I’m not sure I’d be into the random graphics like this, but there must be some cool, functional, uses.



The idea of it being used to represent different EDOs is quite interesting, but fretless + light show on the fingerboard is the path to major fuck-ups...

It could eventually be used for education or MIDI control / link to a PC so one could know where to place the fingers...


----------



## spudmunkey

The Bay Bridge that connects San Francisco to Oakland is festooned with programmable LED lights. It cycles through a randomized "playlist" of low-res animations, like waves and clouds. Thankfully they've kept it "pure" for years, but from the moment they turned on. I was willing to bet we were 2 weeks away from a scrolling: "COCA-COLA WOULD LIKE TO CONGRATULATION THE WORLD SERIED CHAMPS: SF GIANTS!"


----------



## Crundles

Wc707 said:


> Heres an idea: it lists all the companies the artist is sponsored by haha



"Hey guys, welcome to my video on how to START SHREDDING IN 0.05 SECONDS but first, let's thank this video's sponsor!"

*Raid shadow legends logo starts spinning on fretboard in giant pixelated letters*


----------



## SymmetricScars

Today was the estimated completion date for my VM7 so I'm getting really antsy. I had a feeling it would be a bit late, I was surprised when they quoted me June 1 since I ordered on March 1 IIRC.


----------



## spudmunkey

SymmetricScars said:


> Today was the estimated completion date for my VM7 so I'm getting really antsy. I had a feeling it would be a bit late, I was surprised when they quoted me June 1 since I ordered on March 1 IIRC.



They seem to be running about 3-4 weeks behind. They reportedly have more orders than they've ever had, and April was their busiest month ever in their history, so I'm not suprised things are backed up. Their kilns can only handle so many neck blanks, and they probably save-up and batch-out some aspects to save time overall.


----------



## zappatton2

Wc707 said:


> Just imagination working here, but what if the fretboard represented a musical staff and the LEDs would light up in accordance to the note you played, and they're location on the staff?


Oh come now, in the end we all know fretboards will just end up being another screen!


----------



## CovertSovietBear

bigcupholder said:


> Yeah I watched with the sound off. It's djenty emo. The vocals are awful.


Djenty emo, I'll be using that one in the future. Reminds me of my friend when I showed him Polyphia: douche metal.


----------



## Jeff

CovertSovietBear said:


> Djenty emo, I'll be using that one in the future. Reminds me of my friend when I showed him Polyphia: douche metal.



Though I am guilty of listening to it upon occasion, I'd definitely classify Polyphia as douche-metal too.


----------



## spudmunkey




----------



## spudmunkey

Fiiiiinally. And unlike the Humbucker video, they didn't skip any.


----------



## Jeff

spudmunkey said:


> Fiiiiinally. And unlike the Humbucker video, they didn't skip any.




Will watch later for sure.


----------



## CanserDYI

Jeff said:


> Though I am guilty of listening to it upon occasion, I'd definitely classify Polyphia as douche-metal too.


...metal? I'm sorry but I don't put Polyphia into anything with the word metal in it. They're extremely talented, and definitely fall in the djentESQUE/prog category, thats not metal lol


----------



## diagrammatiks

Lol


----------



## Hollowway

diagrammatiks said:


> Lol
> 
> View attachment 94714
> 
> View attachment 94715


Did he quit the company or something?


----------



## spudmunkey

diagrammatiks said:


> Lol



In case anyone's questioning the "Shut up and do your job" quote, it's from a Futurama poster. Not sure of it's a quote from the show, though...
https://i.imgur.com/a09cA.png




Hollowway said:


> Did he quit the company or something?



Not sure when it kicks in, but he's leaving/left:


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> In case anyone's questioning the "Shut up and do your job" quote, it's from a Futurama poster. Not sure of it's a quote from the show, though...
> https://i.imgur.com/a09cA.png
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure when it kicks in, but he's leaving/left:
> View attachment 94716


I don’t get what he means about the quote, though. Is it just a joke between Chris and Jim, or are we to take it to mean he got into an argument with management?


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> I don’t get what he means about the quote, though. Is it just a joke between Chris and Jim, or are we to take it to mean he got into an argument with management?



In the comment thread, Mike posted a photo of that poster, framed on his wall. Then he added the post you see, writing out the text of the poster because it wasn't easy to read. His co-worker Chris gave it to him, and he framed it and hung it on his own wall.


----------



## diagrammatiks

spudmunkey said:


> In the comment thread, Mike posted a photo of that poster, framed on his wall. Then he added the post you see, writing out the text of the poster because it wasn't easy to read. His co-worker Chris gave it to him, and he framed it and hung it on his own wall.


 he posted later that there were two sides to every story
and he didn't do the it's all good. we're all good obligatory leaving thing. 
so maybe there's just some juicy drama beneath the service.


----------



## spudmunkey

The whole conversation:


----------



## BigViolin

Good for him.


----------



## odibrom

Ok, a little context here please, who is Mike Jones and what is his relation with Kiesel Guitars?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

odibrom said:


> Ok, a little context here please, who is Mike Jones and what is his relation with Kiesel Guitars?



I got ya: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Jones_(rapper)


----------



## spudmunkey

odibrom said:


> Ok, a little context here please, who is Mike Jones and what is his relation with Kiesel Guitars?



One of their 4 main sales people, worked for them for at least 9 years, and the most active employee on the facebook group.


----------



## odibrom

@MaxOfMetal - hahaha, lol...
@spudmunkey - thank you for the insight, now I can follow this soap opera...


----------



## CanserDYI

Gahhhh Jeff answered my question, all builds in process even, will be 16-20 weeks. I'm now 3 weeks behind and now preparing for 20 weeks (


----------



## Jonathan20022

If anything Mike taking his leave will probably aid them more than anything, he's been the consistent name thrown around that gets audibly "frustrated" and slowly more irate with customers. I certainly wouldn't burn a decade old bridge quitting my job, but that's just me.


----------



## Avedas

Total drama bait. I never talked to Mike so I have no idea what he's like, but I can't say I'd personally make similar comments on social media if it were me.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Jonathan20022 said:


> If anything Mike taking his leave will probably aid them more than anything, he's been the consistent name thrown around that gets audibly "frustrated" and slowly more irate with customers. I certainly wouldn't burn a decade old bridge quitting my job, but that's just me.



mike on his way out posted a pride month picture on the official page.
jeff removes it
people protest and say they are selling all their kiesels

goddamit i love guitars and social media. you can't make this up.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Oh boy oh boy. Here’s the sauce 






I’m like this close to piecing together the whole story.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

Now is the perfect time for the screen cap of Jeff flexing while commenting on being manly.


----------



## lurè

I remember being in the kiesel fb group before its trasformation into boomer city, and Mike has always been very helpful to everyone.


----------



## CanserDYI

Not going to lie, this really bums me out. I'm really really excited for my Kiesel, and while I know Jeff had literally nothing to do with my guitar as I didnt pick out anything he touches, it still does sour it a bit. 

...Still excited for my aquaburst quilt Vanquish 7......I'll just have to boycott Chic Fila twice as hard now to compensate.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Ok here's what happened near as I can tell. And there's no way to confirm this other then a few scattered screenshots because of course all record of it has been scrubbed...because of course it has.

last week sometime...I remember seeing it as well
Kiesel puts up a rainbow pride logo to celebrate pride month.
Kiesel fanboys complain...because of course they do.
King Jeff orders the logo scrubbed from the internet.
Secret words are said between mike and Jeff.
Mike quits almost immediately afterwards.
The post starts out pretty nice.....but ya that was not an amicable breakup

good shit.


----------



## Jeff

CanserDYI said:


> ...metal? I'm sorry but I don't put Polyphia into anything with the word metal in it. They're extremely talented, and definitely fall in the djentESQUE/prog category, thats not metal lol



Douche-insertgenrehere. 

Yeah, they’re talented. They also come across douchey as hell interviews.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

diagrammatiks said:


> Ok here's what happened near as I can tell. And there's no way to confirm this other then a few scattered screenshots because of course all record of it has been scrubbed...because of course it has.
> 
> last week sometime...I remember seeing it as well
> Kiesel puts up a rainbow pride logo to celebrate pride month.
> Kiesel fanboys complain...because of course they do.
> King Jeff orders the logo scrubbed from the internet.
> Secret words are said between mike and Jeff.
> Mike quits almost immediately afterwards.
> The post starts out pretty nice.....but ya that was not an amicable breakup
> 
> good shit.


Remember when everyone was posting solid black images for BLM and George Floyd? Kiesel did it too. Which makes this even more odd.


----------



## bigcupholder

Man, Kiesel just can't help but shoot themselves in the foot. There'd be less controversy if they left it up and waited for some small part of their fan base to forget about it. 

Also, they're struggling to keep up with orders, so if they're afraid to take a very small stand on a pretty well accepted issue at this point, I'd bet it's more likely a personal decision than a business decision - i.e. I'd worry Jeff is a raging homophobe.

Did anyone manage to save the rainbow Kiesel logo before they took it down? I'd love to troll the Facebook group with it.


----------



## Matt08642

If you have a numbers guitar you have all the colors of the pride flag lol


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Matt08642 said:


> If you have a numbers guitar you have all the colors of the pride flag lol
> 
> View attachment 94745


Slow news day music headline: "Jeff Becker Signature Kiesel Numbers guitar to have colorful pickups, inlays replaced with all black."


----------



## spudmunkey

diagrammatiks said:


> Kiesel Numbers guitar to have colorful pickups, inlays replaced with all black."



That's actually a product suggestion I've made a few times. Black numbers, black pickups, all black hardware, still the natural ash body and maple neck/fb.


----------



## CanserDYI

spudmunkey said:


> That's actually a product suggestion I've made a few times. Black numbers, black pickups, all black hardware, still the natural ash body and maple neck/fb.


That would actually be much better to me lol the original looks like a Sesame Street guitar.


----------



## Mathemagician

CanserDYI said:


> That would actually be much better to me lol the original looks like a Sesame Street guitar.



That was a design choice by Jason to make it look like those old wooden block children’s toys.


----------



## CanserDYI

Mathemagician said:


> That was a design choice by Jason to make it look like those old wooden block children’s toys.


Whatever it is, ehhhh no thanks lol


----------



## devastone

Wait, so there is now an opening to work for Jeff? Where do I send my resume?


----------



## spudmunkey

diagrammatiks said:


> Ok here's what happened near as I can tell. And there's no way to confirm this other then a few scattered screenshots because of course all record of it has been scrubbed...because of course it has.
> 
> last week sometime...I remember seeing it as well
> Kiesel puts up a rainbow pride logo to celebrate pride month.
> Kiesel fanboys complain...because of course they do.
> King Jeff orders the logo scrubbed from the internet.
> Secret words are said between mike and Jeff.
> Mike quits almost immediately afterwards.
> The post starts out pretty nice.....but ya that was not an amicable breakup
> 
> good shit.



I think the order of that is a bit off, at least from the trail of breadcrumbs I saw...
It seems like Mike was already planning on leaving, changed the logo without permission to do so on his way out, perhaps as a personal/moral protest, not sure (but it sure became one to the facebook followers...on both sides of the issue). And it seems like when it was discovered and taken down (which also looked "motivated" to people on both sides), he was "fired", or at least a situation something like those scenes from movies where someone quits the the boss says "You can't quit, you're fired!" but not in so many words...


----------



## CanserDYI

devastone said:


> Wait, so there is now an opening to work for Jeff? Where do I send my resume?


Westboro Baptist Church apparently.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

CanserDYI said:


> Westboro Baptist Church apparently.


----------



## Exit Existence

spudmunkey said:


> I think the order of that is a bit off, at least from the trail of breadcrumbs I saw...
> It seems like Mike was already planning on leaving, changed the logo without permission to do so on his way out, perhaps as a personal/moral protest, not sure (but it sure became one to the facebook followers...on both sides of the issue). And it seems like when it was discovered and taken down (which also looked "motivated" to people on both sides), he was "fired", or at least a situation something like those scenes from movies where someone quits the the boss says "You can't quit, you're fired!" but not in so many words...



Can confirm, Mike announced he was leaving before the pride logo went up and said so himself his reasons for leaving had nothing to do with that.
Those comments posted here on the previous page though, didn't see those wow! Just seems like he was finally done working for a tyrant lol


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> I think the order of that is a bit off, at least from the trail of breadcrumbs I saw...
> It seems like Mike was already planning on leaving, changed the logo without permission to do so on his way out, perhaps as a personal/moral protest, not sure (but it sure became one to the facebook followers...on both sides of the issue). And it seems like when it was discovered and taken down (which also looked "motivated" to people on both sides), he was "fired", or at least a situation something like those scenes from movies where someone quits the the boss says "You can't quit, you're fired!" but not in so many words...


That's basically what happened. Mike was already on his way out to become a stay at home Dad. On his way out though, he changed the logo in the evening and Jeff didn't notice until the next morning. Took it down, and rightfully pissed off fans. Regardless of all this crap, I'm just sad Mike is leaving to be honest. He's a really good dude and the only person in the company that I genuinely liked. He helped me with all of my builds and even gave me some discounts a couple times. Happy for his next adventure, just sad at Jeff's behavior at all of this (not shocking, I know). Funny enough I was just about to shoot an email to Mike about a Vanquish, but after those new lead times a page back and Jeff's typical shithole personality, I'll go elsewhere even if it costs more.


----------



## cip 123

My JB200 is already spec'd for the colours of the Bisexual flag. Gonna colour the Carvin Logo in as a Rainbow.

Sad that anyone should have to leave a job when working with guitars is a dream job for many, hope it works out.


----------



## ryanougrad

If the story of Jeff freaking out over a pride flag is true, it’s just one more reason for me to never buy a Kiesel.


----------



## diagrammatiks

spudmunkey said:


> I think the order of that is a bit off, at least from the trail of breadcrumbs I saw...
> It seems like Mike was already planning on leaving, changed the logo without permission to do so on his way out, perhaps as a personal/moral protest, not sure (but it sure became one to the facebook followers...on both sides of the issue). And it seems like when it was discovered and taken down (which also looked "motivated" to people on both sides), he was "fired", or at least a situation something like those scenes from movies where someone quits the the boss says "You can't quit, you're fired!" but not in so many words...



That's what I had originally thought...but then why post the picture.

At any rate what you posted seems more right.

there was a lot of discussion on this but it's definitely been scrubbed.

Never forget!



bigcupholder said:


> Man, Kiesel just can't help but shoot themselves in the foot. There'd be less controversy if they left it up and waited for some small part of their fan base to forget about it.
> 
> Also, they're struggling to keep up with orders, so if they're afraid to take a very small stand on a pretty well accepted issue at this point, I'd bet it's more likely a personal decision than a business decision - i.e. I'd worry Jeff is a raging homophobe.
> 
> Did anyone manage to save the rainbow Kiesel logo before they took it down? I'd love to troll the Facebook group with it.



I mean if the stated reason is that Kiesel doesn't get political...but it gets political for other reasons....

then.....


----------



## Hollowway

I’ve never interacted with Mike for more than a phone call, but I like him more now. That’s cool he’s going to be a stay at home dad. Also cool that he posted a pride flag on the page. I hope Jeff didn’t take it down due to homophobia, or in an effort to placate the homophobes, but we’ll probably never known unless he does another video explaining.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Hollowway said:


> I’ve never interacted with Mike for more than a phone call, but I like him more now. That’s cool he’s going to be a stay at home dad. Also cool that he posted a pride flag on the page. I hope Jeff didn’t take it down due to homophobia, or in an effort to placate the homophobes, but we’ll probably never known unless he does another video explaining.


It's more likely that a control freak doesn't like his underling doing something without it being Jeff's idea / decision.


----------



## RevelGTR

It seems far, far more likely that Jeff took it down because he’s a control freak. Jumping to the conclusion that Jeff is a homophobe because he didn’t like a seemingly somewhat disgruntled employee changing the social media profile pictures without running it by anyone on his way out seems really silly to me. Not to mention that in the majority of customer service nightmare stories Mike Jones is the salesman involved. If something else comes out I will happily change my mind, but if Jeff truly is a homophobe that would be extremely serious and I’d personally like to see how things develop before going there.


----------



## Jacksonluvr636

diagrammatiks said:


> Oh boy oh boy. Here’s the sauce
> 
> View attachment 94743
> 
> View attachment 94742
> 
> 
> I’m like this close to piecing together the whole story.


Guilty until proven innocent according to Steve Ridenhower ey?


----------



## Edika

I have seen a few threads here slamming Mike Jones about being rude and abrassive over orders and customers contacting Kiesel about issues with guitars. I don't know the guys and I'm sure most of his interactions where great, but the consensus that came out of those threads was that he is kind of a dick to deal with and that Chris was the man to talk to.

Anyway, I don't really care why he left the company, if it was amicable or not or whatever. I just found it weird that most threads about this guy were negative and now suddenly he's top dawg!


----------



## CanserDYI

Yeah I was gonna say i


Edika said:


> I have seen a few threads here slamming Mike Jones about being rude and abrassive over orders and customers contacting Kiesel about issues with guitars. I don't know the guys and I'm sure most of his interactions where great, but the consensus that came out of those threads was that he is kind of a dick to deal with and that Chris was the man to talk to.
> 
> Anyway, I don't really care why he left the company, if it was amicable or not or whatever. I just found it weird that most threads about this guy were negative and now suddenly he's top dawg!


Chris is my guy here and he's been about the most patient dude I can think of when it comes to salesmen. Answered every one of my questions, before and AFTER purchasing.


----------



## spudmunkey

It's certainly a polarizing look, but people keep ordering it...


----------



## RevelGTR

spudmunkey said:


> It's certainly a polarizing look, but people keep ordering it...
> View attachment 94866


If you can say anything positive about it I guess it’s slightly less ugly than the version where the pink is translucent with the horrible opaque green burst. Although the tacky knob might make it equally ugly


----------



## Wucan

CanserDYI said:


> Westboro Baptist Church apparently.


2011: The Westboro Baptist Church is the last cry of a thankfully dying breed
2021: fuck


----------



## Hollowway

RevelGTR said:


> If you can say anything positive about it I guess it’s slightly less ugly than the version where the pink is translucent with the horrible opaque green burst. Although the tacky knob might make it equally ugly


Yeah, the knob is a swing and a miss. But that Evertune looks terrible, too. It’s just so big and stark compared to the guitar that it fights for attention. That paint job should be the center of attention. But I’m not sure chrome would have worked. I think it’s just in need of a more svelte bridge.

And I like this paint combo. You just KNOW Steve Vai is hitting his forehead thinking, “how did I not think of that?”


----------



## RevelGTR

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, the knob is a swing and a miss. But that Evertune looks terrible, too. It’s just so big and stark compared to the guitar that it fights for attention. That paint job should be the center of attention. But I’m not sure chrome would have worked. I think it’s just in need of a more svelte bridge.
> 
> And I like this paint combo. You just KNOW Steve Vai is hitting his forehead thinking, “how did I not think of that?”


Yeah that’s a good call on the Evertune. Maybe a green powder coated Hipshot hard tail and a green Ibanez style strat knob would’ve been the move.


----------



## Hollowway

RevelGTR said:


> Maybe a green powder coated Hipshot hard tail.



Now THAT would be cool!


----------



## Supernaut

spudmunkey said:


> It's certainly a polarizing look, but people keep ordering it...
> View attachment 94866



The fact they'd take down a Pride logo but spray that onto a guitar tells you a lot about Kiesel.


----------



## soliloquy

I want to say that carvin/kiesel is a brand that i've given up on a while back, but its a slow train wreck that keeps getting worse. 
I dont really see the point of this thread having over 250 pages, and the other 'carvin - never again' also having a high number of pages. 
it is hilarious to try keeping up with BS, where I like they think they have learned a lesson and they will amend their ways, only for them to do something else equally appalling. It is also evident that the more we turn away from the brand, the more other people are drawn to the brand. 

sure, choices are good, and if a brand speaks to you, i'm glad you found a brand...but finding a sexist, homophobic, racist, douchy attitude to be something you identify yourself as...and take pride in that...i have a hard time with that mentality. whatever makes you happy.


----------



## jco5055

I was just happy that I finally tried a bunch at Chicago Music Exchange that confirmed I didn't want one...though I understand those (aka me before the age of 25 or so) who can't afford the $3k+stuff, as for the price Kiesel is great (just don't go fancy on the woods etc)


----------



## RevelGTR

soliloquy said:


> I want to say that carvin/kiesel is a brand that i've given up on a while back, but its a slow train wreck that keeps getting worse.
> I dont really see the point of this thread having over 250 pages, and the other 'carvin - never again' also having a high number of pages.
> it is hilarious to try keeping up with BS, where I like they think they have learned a lesson and they will amend their ways, only for them to do something else equally appalling. It is also evident that the more we turn away from the brand, the more other people are drawn to the brand.
> 
> sure, choices are good, and if a brand speaks to you, i'm glad you found a brand...but finding a sexist, homophobic, racist, douchy attitude to be something you identify yourself as...and take pride in that...i have a hard time with that mentality. whatever makes you happy.


Can you please post the examples you have of Jeff being racist? Again, if that’s true it’s extremely serious and would be a determining factor in me not ordering in the future.


----------



## soliloquy

Edit: I was wrong. Disregard this.
I made a mistake in stating that he was being racist (read above comment). Please disregard that.


----------



## RevelGTR

soliloquy said:


> i could very well be mistaken in my understanding of his actions/thought process, but i believe it was surrounding the BLM movement. He made some comment regarding blacking out in social media. It wasn't that he is against the notion, but that he isn't supporting it either.
> 
> I dont think its one of those 'if you're not with us, you're against us' but that he just didn't want to take a stand either way


A quick look at his Instagram shows that he did post a black square on June 2nd of 2020.


----------



## binz

The guy is certifiably many things but we should be careful in throwing around the word racist to anyone that we disagree with. It only serves the purpose of diluting the terminology and discussion, favoring only those that are, in fact, racists.


----------



## soliloquy

RevelGTR said:


> A quick look at his Instagram shows that he did post a black square on June 2nd of 2020.



Noted I was wrong.
I'll edit that out


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

soliloquy said:


> Edit: I was wrong. Disregard this.
> I made a mistake in stating that he was being racist (read above comment). Please disregard that.


What about the part about him being homophobic? I don't know any company where a boss really takes kindly to their underlings going behind their back and doing anything. Not sure that expressly makes them homophobic. Control freak (as most bosses are) is much more likely the case.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Spaced Out Ace said:


> What about the part about him being homophobic? I don't know any company where a boss really takes kindly to their underlings going behind their back and doing anything. Not sure that expressly makes them homophobic. Control freak (as most bosses are) is much more likely the case.


I admit that there are no winners here. 
But why not just leave it up.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

diagrammatiks said:


> I admit that there are no winners here.
> But why not just leave it up.


I don't know about you, but I've never known bosses to be very reasonable when it isn't their idea.


----------



## CovertSovietBear

CanserDYI said:


> ...metal? I'm sorry but I don't put Polyphia into anything with the word metal in it. They're extremely talented, and definitely fall in the djentESQUE/prog category, thats not metal lol



Douche-djent? Douche-prog? Douche-prog-jent?


----------



## spudmunkey

Pjop.


----------



## CovertSovietBear

spudmunkey said:


> Pjop.


Pronounced pyop


----------



## spudmunkey

Unless you're in Iceland, then it's Pjöp.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

spudmunkey said:


> It's certainly a polarizing look, but people keep ordering it...
> View attachment 94866


My eyes!!!!


----------



## cardinal

I keep checking this thread for the Kiesel 9-string. I keep leaving disappointed.


----------



## CanserDYI

cardinal said:


> I keep checking this thread for the Kiesel 9-string. I keep leaving disappointed.


Look up Felix martin's double necks he had Jeff do. 16 string


----------



## spudmunkey

CanserDYI said:


> Look up Felix martin's double necks he had Jeff do. 16 string


That's cheating. That's just an 8-string, ctrl+c, ctrl+v.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> That's cheating. That's just an 8-string, ctrl+c, ctrl+v.


----------



## Jeff

Spaced Out Ace said:


> What about the part about him being homophobic? I don't know any company where a boss really takes kindly to their underlings going behind their back and doing anything. Not sure that expressly makes them homophobic. Control freak (as most bosses are) is much more likely the case.



In the case that that happens, it's still not a good look to go ripping it down immediately. But he's free to create whatever image he wants, which he does a great job of. That of supreme douche-Bro.


----------



## CanserDYI

All i know is my Kiesel is now a month late and I'm experiencing some GAS depression! I know you can't rush these things, but just get to me dammit lol


----------



## ramses

CanserDYI said:


> All i know is my Kiesel is now a month late and I'm experiencing some GAS depression! I know you can't rush these things, but just get to me dammit lol



Did you order a custom finish, or one of the difficult finishes? Or is the guitar a "normal" returnable-within-10-days one?


----------



## CanserDYI

ramses said:


> Did you order a custom finish, or one of the difficult finishes? Or is the guitar a "normal" returnable-within-10-days one?


Aquaburst quilt top no upgrade, so nothing insane, but I suppose this could be on the more difficult side. I'm at 19 weeks this weekend.


----------



## spudmunkey

I had a feeling this was coming...

New model: 75th anniversary Headless K Series (HK). A little larger than the Vader or Osiris.

Original 70th anniversary K on the left, the middle and right are the HK


----------



## USMarine75

I want that blue one.


----------



## CanserDYI

I'm really disappointed in this like I've said before. Its a headless K with Vader tits, and on top of that, I was hoping for another poor man's model which this one is not.


----------



## bigcupholder

The Vader looks a lot better IMO. Somehow the cut at the back is enough to differentiate it from a generic super strat that the lack of headstock is not visually jarring to me. This fills in that gap for seemingly no reason: It offers worse access to the tuners than the Vader and lacks the comfortable bevel of the Osiris/Zeus.

It seems like he ran out of ideas but needed to make something different to justify the massive upcharge of the K series on another model.


----------



## technomancer

Meh. Would get a Vader before one of these... and the beveling on the K series tops still just makes them look poorly proportioned IMHO


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

Looks like the guitar has balls, but not at all in a good way. Jeff’s designs are so hit and miss, but he averages more on the side of missing.


----------



## spudmunkey

Definitely my favorite of theirs,, but I'd probably pick an HD first.


----------



## diagrammatiks

It’s literally a Vader with junk in the trunk


----------



## mbardu

diagrammatiks said:


> It’s literally a Vader with junk in the trunk



Like the K series is to the DC.
Not much to see there, despite all the superlatives that they try to slap on it.


----------



## mbardu

bigcupholder said:


> The Vader looks a lot better IMO. Somehow the cut at the back is enough to differentiate it from a generic super strat that the lack of headstock is not visually jarring to me. This fills in that gap for *seemingly no reason*: It offers worse access to the tuners than the Vader and lacks the comfortable bevel of the Osiris/Zeus.
> 
> It seems like he ran out of ideas but needed to make something different to justify the massive upcharge of the K series on another model.



No reason?
What about manufactured hype for a "new" model? 
What about inflated price and margin for something that's functionally identical to a Vader?
Those are reasons.


----------



## bigcupholder

mbardu said:


> No reason?
> What about manufactured hype for a "new" model?
> What about inflated price and margin for something that's functionally identical to a Vader?
> Those are reasons.


No *functional* reason. I mentioned the K series cost in my post.

It makes sense if they're running at capacity to try to increase the average order price (as they've done successfully over the past decade) not only by increasing prices but also introducing more expensive models.

But from a design perspective, I think it sucks. It's an ugly, less unique and less functional Vader. It's ironic that Jeff routinely brushes people off during the QA that ask for a larger deviation from an existing model than this (e.g. "You want a neck through Zeus? Yeah we make that, it's called a Leia").


----------



## mbardu

bigcupholder said:


> No *functional* reason. I mentioned the K series cost in my post.
> 
> It makes sense if they're running at capacity to try to increase the average order price (as they've done successfully over the past decade) not only by increasing prices but also introducing more expensive models.
> 
> But from a design perspective, I think it sucks. It's an ugly, less unique and less functional Vader. It's ironic that Jeff routinely brushes people off during the QA that ask for a larger deviation from an existing model than this (e.g. "You want a neck through Zeus? Yeah we make that, it's called a Leia").



If it was not clear, that was in jest, and I was agreeing with you


----------



## RevelGTR

I honestly love it, but the massive price difference for upgrades in aesthetic options and not quality/attention to detail is more than I can justify. I’d probably go for a Vader, although the larger body on this model definitely appeals to me.


----------



## Hollowway

Not a fan of the shape (and bevel), but the finish on that blue one is killer!


----------



## Avedas

Ew no.

I'm a total sucker for fades though.


----------



## technomancer

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> *Looks like the guitar has balls, but not at all in a good way.* Jeff’s designs are so hit and miss, but he averages more on the side of missing.


----------



## Stuck_in_a_dream

Not that I'd buy a Kiesel anytime soon. Maybe I'm biased, but I don't like the design at all, not even the finish! For some reason, it looks really cheap to me, ugh. Design has 0 appeal to top it off. Vader and Osiris, much better imho.


----------



## spudmunkey

To me, the Vader's horns looked stumpy. I like the Osiris, but I already have an Aries. This WOULD be the one from the lineup I'd pick, although an HD is high up on the list. The others aren't my jam. The Type X was OK in-hand, but I think I might like the Lightspeed more that I really dig it...but like with the K, I do wish there was the option for solid finishes cheaper necks, etc..."pleb spec".


----------



## Hollowway

The only Kiesel I’m currently jonesing for is the ZBM7 (or whatever the 7 string bass is). But NFW I’m paying over $3000 for one, and I doubt any are gonna come up used.


----------



## lurè

I'd take this over the Osiris anytime.


----------



## RevelGTR

Hollowway said:


> The only Kiesel I’m currently jonesing for is the ZBM7 (or whatever the 7 string bass is). But NFW I’m paying over $3000 for one, and I doubt any are gonna come up used.


I think they start a little under $2000, do the options you’d want push it up to over $3k?


----------



## Hollowway

RevelGTR said:


> I think they start a little under $2000, do the options you’d want push it up to over $3k?


Sort of. I really just want a nice quilted maple finish on it, so the actual price (including tax) is a few hundred under $3000. So A) I'm exaggerating the price, because I like to complain, and B) I have no business buying another instrument. 

What I REALLY want is to buy a used one that looks nice. Honestly, the best looking Kiesels I've seen have been specs I would never have chosen. It does seem like no one buys these, though.


----------



## SymmetricScars

My VM7 showed up a week ago and I've barely put it down since then. They really did an excellent job. Full NGD and review when I'm not so lazy.













VM7



__ SymmetricScars
__ Jul 4, 2021



2021 Kiesel Vader 7


----------



## Hollowway

Are those crescent inlays an upcharge? I've been seeing those a lot, but I wasn't sure.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> Are those crescent inlays an upcharge? I've been seeing those a lot, but I wasn't sure.


They are. I *believe* they are $70, but don't remember 100%. If i remember right, It's only availble in white, black, or KRG acrylic. No MOP, No amablone or nor luminlay.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

SymmetricScars said:


> My VM7 showed up a week ago and I've barely put it down since then. They really did an excellent job. Full NGD and review when I'm not so lazy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VM7
> 
> 
> 
> __ SymmetricScars
> __ Jul 4, 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 2021 Kiesel Vader 7


Satin color shift? Looks great.


----------



## SymmetricScars

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> Satin color shift? Looks great.


Yep, it's pretty incredible in person and very difficult to really capture in a photo. I'm sad it will eventually gloss up a bit from playing but oh well. For now I've been washing my hands every time I want to play it.



Hollowway said:


> Are those crescent inlays an upcharge? I've been seeing those a lot, but I wasn't sure.


Spud nailed it, $70 for the crescent and only in a few colors.


----------



## CanserDYI

SymmetricScars said:


> Yep, it's pretty incredible in person and very difficult to really capture in a photo. I'm sad it will eventually gloss up a bit from playing but oh well. For now I've been washing my hands every time I want to play it.
> 
> 
> Spud nailed it, $70 for the crescent and only in a few colors.


When did you order? I'm almost 5 weeks behind now and getting ancy!!


----------



## SymmetricScars

CanserDYI said:


> When did you order? I'm almost 5 weeks behind now and getting ancy!!


Haha I feel you, mine was a little over 3 weeks late from the estimated completion date they gave me. I ordered March 1st IIRC.


----------



## spudmunkey

A few models have been discontinued. If you had your heart set on any of them, there is likely a short time where you can still order one, just without the 10-day trial:
Osiris non-multiscale 8 (which means no more Osiris 8-string with a trem)
Zeus non-multiscale 8 (which means no more Zeus 8-string with a trem)
AC375
NZ624 (although that was basically just a CT624 without a tone knob, and an engraved truss rod), since Mr. Zaza mostly plays the Aries now


----------



## CanserDYI

SymmetricScars said:


> Haha I feel you, mine was a little over 3 weeks late from the estimated completion date they gave me. I ordered March 1st IIRC.


Damn man Feb 22 here.


----------



## Themistocles

SymmetricScars said:


> My VM7 showed up a week ago and I've barely put it down since then. They really did an excellent job. Full NGD and review when I'm not so lazy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VM7
> 
> 
> 
> __ SymmetricScars
> __ Jul 4, 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 2021 Kiesel Vader 7


Im considering a vader or osiris... I need a guitar I can drag along on planes. My carvin has its quirks but it really is like no other guitar Ive played... I mean who else does quartersawn alder neck through with koa sides and a 1/2 inch thick maple top for what I got it for back in the aughts? Id go black limba and or swamp ash bolt on combo headless these days... and orange. very orange. I dont need fancy quilt tops... too symmetrical for my tastes and my carvin has a top that is a bit chaotic (I asked for that). These days they have better options... like Holdsworth pickups for the 7.


----------



## CanserDYI

Themistocles said:


> Im considering a vader or osiris... I need a guitar I can drag along on planes. My carvin has its quirks but it really is like no other guitar Ive played... I mean who else does quartersawn alder neck through with koa sides and a 1/2 inch thick maple top for what I got it for back in the aughts? Id go black limba and or swamp ash bolt on combo headless these days... and orange. very orange. I dont need fancy quilt tops... too symmetrical for my tastes and my carvin has a top that is a bit chaotic (I asked for that). These days they have better options... like Holdsworth pickups for the 7.


I have a Holdsworth in the neck of my incoming vanquish 7....will report back soon. Whenever the hell Kiesel decides to finish


----------



## lurè

I have a pair of Holdsworth 7 on my vader and I highly prefer them over the lithiums. 
Rounder and less aggressive overall but they don't have lithiums upper mids and treble spike that make the pickup sound thin.


----------



## bigcupholder

The Holdsworth pickups are still on the thin/clear side, but definitely not as extreme as Lithiums. The mids are a bit broader, not as spiky and upper mid focused, but they still have that glassy presence and are lacking lower mids and bass.


----------



## cardinal

I liked the new HK design, then I read the various anatomical comments, and now I can't unsee it


----------



## CanserDYI

TRUCK YAH BORTHER, GOT WORD THAT SUM LIBRUL HAS MY GITAR BAYSICLY REDDY

SHULD HAV A NGD CUMBING SOON HAWSSSS.


----------



## spudmunkey




----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> A few models have been discontinued. If you had your heart set on any of them, there is likely a short time where you can still order one, just without the 10-day trial:
> Osiris non-multiscale 8 (which means no more Osiris 8-string with a trem)
> Zeus non-multiscale 8 (which means no more Zeus 8-string with a trem)
> AC375
> NZ624 (although that was basically just a CT624 without a tone knob, and an engraved truss rod), since Mr. Zaza mostly plays the Aries now



I feel personally attacked. The 8 with trem were the only ones I wanted, lol. I have one, so I'm set, but I'll have to give up the chance of another poor life decision where I order yet another guitar.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> I feel personally attacked. The 8 with trem were the only ones I wanted, lol. I have one, so I'm set, but I'll have to give up the chance of another poor life decision where I order yet another guitar.



There's still the Vader, or a very slim chance they'd still build a LM8x (Lee McKinney model). It was technically just a limited time thing, but...well...strange things have happened.


----------



## odibrom

spudmunkey said:


> There's still the Vader, or a very slim chance they'd still build a LM8x (Lee McKinney model). It was technically just a limited time thing, but...well...strange things have happened.
> View attachment 95614



This one doesn't look that bad, it's actually pleasant...


----------



## Themistocles

CanserDYI said:


> I have a Holdsworth in the neck of my incoming vanquish 7....will report back soon. Whenever the hell Kiesel decides to finish


What Ive heard is they are more P90-like, which is exciting. I currently have a 7string P90 on order for one of my axes. Im still sorting out my build. Any idea what the upcharge is on a mastergrade fretboard? Im not really into super figured guitars (because furniture and Im not Liberace so it doesnt go with what I wear, but if its your thing by all means) but Im glad we are beyond the days when everyone just dyed all ebony black.


----------



## spudmunkey

Themistocles said:


> Any idea what the upcharge is on a mastergrade fretboard?



It would depend on the board. For example, Pale moon Ebony is going to be more expensive than flamed maple.


----------



## Themistocles

spudmunkey said:


> It would depend on the board. For example, Pale moon Ebony is going to be more expensive than flamed maple.


zircote or royal ebony. Its gonna be an orange antique ash guitar body and I like how zircote often carries some orange through in a chaotic way. The right Royal Ebony can also have some of it although generally less chaotic a pattern and I already have a 7 with ebony. That said it isnt super important so if its a fortune, skip it. Just would like to know before calling and they havent answered my inquiry via email.


----------



## CanserDYI

Themistocles said:


> What Ive heard is they are more P90-like, which is exciting. I currently have a 7string P90 on order for one of my axes. Im still sorting out my build. Any idea what the upcharge is on a mastergrade fretboard? Im not really into super figured guitars (because furniture and Im not Liberace so it doesnt go with what I wear, but if its your thing by all means) but Im glad we are beyond the days when everyone just dyed all ebony black.


Depends on woods. Most I think are 250 but might want to ask Spudmunkey


----------



## Themistocles

CanserDYI said:


> Depends on woods. Most I think are 250 but might want to ask Spudmunkey


That's about what Im seeing as I rummage around the janky Kiesel messageboard... man the search on that thing and the kind of basic info Im looking for.


----------



## spudmunkey

I don't know fretboard pricing, but here's July-of-last-year pricing (which may have gone up a little as there's been a price increase since then) on some of their maple tops, taken from a post from an employee:

For Quilt:
5A adds $300.
7A master grade adds $600.
K Top adds $800. (essentially a more unique master grade.)

For Flame:
5A adds $200
7A master grade adds $400
K Top adds $600.
(Carved top guitars are double)

So for fretboards...maybe assume the standard upgrade +150% is probably a safe bet, at least to get you in the neighborhood budget-wise. Meaning if it's $100, then it's $250.

I don't know how much Ziricote is.

This info isn't published anywhere "official", because the pricing on these sorts of unique upgrades are much more flexible...I assume if they only have a couple pieces left, they need to be free to adjust the cost accordingly to throttle the demand a bit.


----------



## Themistocles

spudmunkey said:


> I don't know fretboard pricing, but here's July-of-last-year pricing (which may have gone up a little as there's been a price increase since then) on some of their maple tops, taken from a post from an employee:
> 
> For Quilt:
> 5A adds $300.
> 7A master grade adds $600.
> K Top adds $800. (essentially a more unique master grade.)
> 
> For Flame:
> 5A adds $200
> 7A master grade adds $400
> K Top adds $600.
> (Carved top guitars are double)
> 
> So for fretboards...maybe assume the standard upgrade +150% is probably a safe bet, at least to get you in the neighborhood budget-wise. Meaning if it's $100, then it's $250.
> 
> I don't know how much Ziricote is.
> 
> This info isn't published anywhere "official", because the pricing on these sorts of unique upgrades are much more flexible...I assume if they only have a couple pieces left, they need to be free to adjust the cost accordingly to throttle the demand a bit.


They probably just dont stock a lot of it but since builds take a while they can sort it out and fit it into the queue.

When I asked for my DC747 build with a chaotic, not too flamey maple top and an alder neck with some funky grain if possible they definitely delivered and took extra time to do so. The top has crotch, flame and almost quilt like qualities but no super organized patterns all over as are favored... it gets cloudy.shimmery almost in spots. Most would hate that top but I love it because its subtle and I can appreciate and be inspired by it (its my avatar image). Can people past the 3rd row see it? no. This new build will be a traveling/touring guitar. I plan to take it to Iceland and Sweden when the world reopens more.


----------



## bigcupholder

Themistocles said:


> zircote or royal ebony. Its gonna be an orange antique ash guitar body and I like how zircote often carries some orange through in a chaotic way. The right Royal Ebony can also have some of it although generally less chaotic a pattern and I already have a 7 with ebony. That said it isnt super important so if its a fortune, skip it. Just would like to know before calling and they havent answered my inquiry via email.


Zebrawood can look chaotic and look good with orange.


----------



## spudmunkey

Themistocles said:


> Its gonna be an orange antique ash guitar body



Here's antique ash in orange orange (with yellow bevel and red body/sides) with a (fairly light...one of the lightest I think I've seen) piece of royal ebony:


----------



## Hoss632

Themistocles said:


> What Ive heard is they are more P90-like, which is exciting. I currently have a 7string P90 on order for one of my axes. Im still sorting out my build. Any idea what the upcharge is on a mastergrade fretboard? Im not really into super figured guitars (because furniture and Im not Liberace so it doesnt go with what I wear, but if its your thing by all means) but Im glad we are beyond the days when everyone just dyed all ebony black.


Holdsworth set isn't p90 like at all. But they are one of the best and most versatile sets that kiesel has. If not the most versatile.


----------



## spudmunkey

I'vew heard people say the Holdsworth is possibly the most PAF-y pickup they have. I lack the vocabulary and ear to confirm or deny that... I've also heard people describe the Twinblade (TBH60) single-coil-sized humbucker as P90-ish.


----------



## ScottThunes1960

The Holdsworth pickup is Kiesel’s “improvement” on the custom shop Duncan double screw ‘59 PAF neck that Allan settled on as the go-to pup he’d put in the bridge position of all his guitars. I haven’t owned the Duncan to compare, but supposedly the Kiesel is a bit hotter.


----------



## Themistocles

spudmunkey said:


> Here's antique ash in orange orange (with yellow bevel and red body/sides) with a (fairly light...one of the lightest I think I've seen) piece of royal ebony:
> View attachment 95738


Yeah that's one that helped me decide it would be transparent orange antique ash. It doesnt really look antique it just looks like the pores are more prevalent due to a dark tinted filler. They also do a summer ash thing with yellow filler which might be cool but since Im a platinum blond vinkingish fella a yellow guitar is a no no (big bird). That said orange is my favorite color and wear it a lot. When I had that dc747 built I had a hell of a time deciding green or orange. When the pandemic hit that green guitar become my main axe and I hardly play 6 string anymore. Now Kiesel has much better options and I can build the orange 7 I want. Still debating on having it chambered or not. weight doesnt bother me but I love how resonant the DC747 is with an alder neck. I mean its really lively, like no other guitar Ive ever played. But I do want something different and versatile and I couldnt get Holdsworth pickups on the green carvin.


----------



## CanserDYI

Man Spud why'd you have to post a vanquish, I was doing okay not refreshing my email every 20 minutes.


----------



## thrsher

spudmunkey said:


> A few models have been discontinued. If you had your heart set on any of them, there is likely a short time where you can still order one, just without the 10-day trial:



i just ordered a Crescent straight scale 8 that was discontinued. had to pay in full and waive trial. im cool with it. glad they let me order one


----------



## Themistocles

ScottThunes1960 said:


> The Holdsworth pickup is Kiesel’s “improvement” on the custom shop Duncan double screw ‘59 PAF neck that Allan settled on as the go-to pup he’d put in the bridge position of all his guitars. I haven’t owned the Duncan to compare, but supposedly the Kiesel is a bit hotter.


I seem to gravitate to slightly hotter pafs and when they do have more output I endup backing them farther away from the strings. Im also using more emulatons of power amp distortion instead of stacking distortion pedals in front of things so it makes sense. I like a more open sound for my distorions so the Holdsworth is a selling point for me. Im currently having a Duncan Custom dropped into decent playing scratch n dent Jackson JS22Q-7. That will have to tide me over till the Kiesel build gets done... heck I still gotta sort out the details but Im close.

Hey does anyone know the difference between the Lava finish and Transparent Orange? I assume Lava is deep stain for maple that the antique ash does the same job of? Also not seeing transparent orange on the website anymore but I assume they still do it as they keep releasing pics of axes with it. Since its gonna be a headless it will be "the great headless pumpkin king chaos axe."


----------



## spudmunkey

Themistocles said:


> Hey does anyone know the difference between the Lava finish and Transparent Orange? I assume Lava is deep stain for maple that the antique ash does the same job of? Also not seeing transparent orange on the website anymore but I assume they still do it as they keep releasing pics of axes with it. Since its gonna be a headless it will be "the great headless pumpkin king chaos axe."



Deep Lava is a stain (or maybe more accurately a dye) finish.

Transparent orange (and Deep orange, by extension, when applied to flamed or quilted maple with the "deep" figuring-enhancing stain) is a transparent paint.

Transparent/Deep Orange is likely still available, but if it's not online, so it likely wouldn't have the 10-day trial period.

I can't speak to how they differ in person, but in photos, the Lava looks a bit more like a brick red + orange, while "orange" is more of a ever-so-slightly reddish orange without as much of the "brown" that Lava seems to have.


----------



## Themistocles

spudmunkey said:


> One thing to think about with chambering is that you need a top wood.
> 
> 
> Deep Lava is a stain (or maybe more accurately a dye) finish.
> 
> Transparent orange (and Deep orange, by extension, when applied to flamed or quilted maple with the "deep" figuring-enhancing stain) is a transparent paint.
> 
> Transparent/Deep Orange is likely still available, but if it's not online, so it likely wouldn't have the 10-day trial period.
> 
> I can't speak to how they differ in person, but in photos, the Lava looks a bit more like a brick red + orange, while "orange" is more of a ever-so-slightly reddish orange without as much of the "brown" that Lava seems to have.


Planning on a swamp ash top and I just assumed the 10 day trial was gonna be invalidated by something I wanted like raw finish ... my previous Carvin didnt have a 10 day either. I kinda like to be surprised and dont like absurdly high figuring.


----------



## spudmunkey

Themistocles said:


> Planning on a swamp ash top and I just assumed the 10 day trial was gonna be invalidated by something I wanted like raw finish ... my previous Carvin didnt have a 10 day either. I kinda like to be surprised and dont like absurdly high figuring.


Ahh, gotcha. I'm not certain, but they may not do lava on ash. There are some stain/dye-based finishes that they only do on the figured maples. The best way to get a "yes" is to reach out with credit card in hand, but have a plan B anyway.


----------



## Themistocles

spudmunkey said:


> Ahh, gotcha. I'm not certain, but they may not do lava on ash. There are some stain/dye-based finishes that they only do on the figured maples. The best way to get a "yes" is to reach out with credit card in hand, but have a plan B anyway.


yes, you have been invaluable in that regard as just googling the bejezus out of certain specs often doesnt get simple answers. I just want to be prepared so I can pivot. Have you ever heard of them doing Pau Ferro as the middle laminate of a 3 piece neck? I dont want walnut and wish they did wenge but I respect their reasoning for not. 

I thought about Fire Finish on antique ash (living through last years and this years fires in Oregon are pretty triggering) but I dont see anything online and have kind decided on a non burst. Keeping the under wood clear and non tinted will create enough visual contour hugging detail.


----------



## spudmunkey

Themistocles said:


> yes, you have been invaluable in that regard as just googling the bejezus out of certain specs often doesnt get simple answers. I just want to be prepared so I can pivot. Have you ever heard of them doing Pau Ferro as the middle laminate of a 3 piece neck? I dont want walnut and wish they did wenge but I respect their reasoning for not.
> 
> I thought about Fire Finish on antique ash (living through last years and this years fires in Oregon are pretty triggering) but I dont see anything online and have kind decided on a non burst. Keeping the under wood clear and non tinted will create enough visual contour hugging detail.



No, their necks (for the most part) are made ahead of time and batched out. A part of that is because making a custom neck takes a lot more time, since they re-dry them after glue-ups, and by not doing non-standard neck configs, they don't have to keep track of individual neck blanks when they are packed into the drying oven; they just need to keep a shelving unit stocked of glued-up neck blanks. That said, every so often we do see a K series or seomthing come through with some unique things like flamed koa and flamed maple, or a quilted maple neck, so it's maybe possible, but likely for LARGE up-charge.

But even for something like Pao Ferro, I've never seen them use that wood in anything before so I don't think they have it...but that would mean that you *could* send in your own since they don't let folks send in wood they already carry. They'd have minimum size and maximum moisture level requirements. For tops, it's usually double the most-expensive top option. So I'd imagine it's at least a couple hundred more than their most expensive fretboard option on the menu. I'll note that this is just a guess to help you get SOME sort of budget figure, and not based on any actual numbers because I haven't seen any.

In the past, I've seen them make rosewood and cocobolo necks which were woods they had limited stock of at the time, but a couple months ago I remember them saying they didn't have any left, and they likely wouldn't cut up a whole neck blank to just use one stripe for a 3-piece neck.


----------



## Themistocles

spudmunkey said:


> No, their necks (for the most part) are made ahead of time and batched out. A part of that is because making a custom neck takes a lot more time, since they re-dry them after glue-ups, and by not doing non-standard neck configs, they don't have to keep track of individual neck blanks when they are packed into the drying oven; they just need to keep a shelving unit stocked of glued-up neck blanks. That said, every so often we do see a K series or seomthing come through with some unique things like flamed koa and flamed maple, or a quilted maple neck, so it's maybe possible, but likely for LARGE up-charge.
> 
> But even for something like Pao Ferro, I've never seen them use that wood in anything before so I don't think they have it...but that would mean that you *could* send in your own since they don't let folks send in wood they already carry. They'd have minimum size and maximum moisture level requirements. For tops, it's usually double the most-expensive top option. So I'd imagine it's at least a couple hundred more than their most expensive fretboard option on the menu. I'll note that this is just a guess to help you get SOME sort of budget figure, and not based on any actual numbers because I haven't seen any.
> 
> In the past, I've seen them make rosewood and cocobolo necks which were woods they had limited stock of at the time, but a couple months ago I remember them saying they didn't have any left, and they likely wouldn't cut up a whole neck blank to just use one stripe for a 3-piece neck.




That makes a lot of sense and Kiesel/Carvin's approach to necks is partly why Im going back there (Im surrounded by luthiers here).

#1 their assembly line means they are pretty consistent and I know I like my DC747 with a 14 inch radius.

#2 the neck/fretboard is the most important thing to get right


----------



## CanserDYI

99% sure the Hyperdrive that Ola Englund had on his channel a few weeks is up for sale on Kiesel site right now, if someone grabs it theyre pretty lucky because its a Killer looking guitar.


----------



## Bassnguitar

how's Kiesel QC and customer service lately in the pandemic era? Thinking of ordering something from them, but wanted to check in with people who ordered recently and hear about some good/bad experiences if any


----------



## CanserDYI

Bassnguitar said:


> how's Kiesel QC and customer service lately in the pandemic era? Thinking of ordering something from them, but wanted to check in with people who ordered recently and hear about some good/bad experiences if any


I've had nothing but good experiences with Chris Hong, awesome sales rep and will literally let you email him day in and day out and stays patient as all hell. I have yet to recieve guitar, should be shipping some time this week so can't attest for current QC, but they are as busy as they ever have been before, and it seems they've taken a course in how to treat customers as they all seem very friendly as of late.


----------



## Themistocles

CanserDYI said:


> I've had nothing but good experiences with Chris Hong, awesome sales rep and will literally let you email him day in and day out and stays patient as all hell. I have yet to recieve guitar, should be shipping some time this week so can't attest for current QC, but they are as busy as they ever have been before, and it seems they've taken a course in how to treat customers as they all seem very friendly as of late.


good to hear and it makes sense since theyve gotten so much feedback, youd be a fool not to take into account. I had mostly a good experience before and though there is an issue of some play in the trem arm It could be addressed fully on my end if it mattered enough.

All that said there is an old saying, "if you want something done, get someone who is busy."

just about have all my option sorted out.


----------



## cardinal

thrsher said:


> i just ordered a Crescent straight scale 8 that was discontinued. had to pay in full and waive trial. im cool with it. glad they let me order one



That's pretty cool. I've never been able to pull the trigger on a Kiesel but have been sadly watching all the straight-scale 8s disappear. 

I assume if the instrument is delivered with actual flaws, Kiesel would have to make it right; you just lose the ability to send it back for subjective reasons? I could easily live with that.


----------



## spudmunkey

cardinal said:


> I assume if the instrument is delivered with actual flaws, Kiesel would have to make it right; you just lose the ability to send it back for subjective reasons? I could easily live with that.



Correct. It would also have the same 5-year warranty...you just don't get to return it because you've discovered the scale/string count aren't for you, or you thought the color was darker than you had hoped it would be, or don't care for the volume knob position, etc etc etc.

Again, I've mentioned it before, while there were some infamous "drama" stories in the past in regards to returns, this past year-and-change has been really encouraging. Seemingly every "complaint" I've seen posted anywhere (and with 4,000 customized one-of-a-kind guitars in a year, things are bound to happen), every issue has been resolved with the customer with little to no pushback.


----------



## CanserDYI

Man, 22 weeks in now and no tracking. I bought this in February to make sure I have it for my birthday, and that's in 4 days, don't think I'll be getting my birthday geetar


----------



## CanserDYI

And my baby was posted today on the pics of the day....absolutely stunning and cannot wait.


----------



## Themistocles

CanserDYI said:


> And my baby was posted today on the pics of the day....absolutely stunning and cannot wait.


excellent build... there are so many options these days that its easy to overdo it but that's pure class.


----------



## Seabeast2000

CanserDYI said:


> And my baby was posted today on the pics of the day....absolutely stunning and cannot wait.


Good call on a Vanquish build


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

CanserDYI said:


> And my baby was posted today on the pics of the day....absolutely stunning and cannot wait.


Nice dude. They picked you a great top.


----------



## CanserDYI

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> Nice dude. They picked you a great top.


Agreed! Wasnt even an upgrade! I'm shocked at it frankly. It's quilted from top to bottom and does some weird chevroning by the pickups, just so cool. Geeking out right now, sorry guys.


----------



## spudmunkey

How far are you from California? If it ships today (it may not...sometimes they still need a final check/cleaning), might it still make it for your birthday?


----------



## mbardu

CanserDYI said:


> And my baby was posted today on the pics of the day....absolutely stunning and cannot wait.



Not helping my vanquish GAS...


----------



## CanserDYI

spudmunkey said:


> How far are you from California? If it ships today (it may not...sometimes they still need a final check/cleaning), might it still make it for your birthday?


Nope, Ohio here, it'll be here next Tuesday, birthday is on Saturday. Big 30 and wife told me to go ahead, and I'm glad I did lol


----------



## CanserDYI

mbardu said:


> Not helping my vanquish GAS...


Yeah when I saw it, I needed it. This was originally going to be a Delos 7, then I was like wait wait wait man, your first custom guitar you're going for a strat? Nah. Saw the vanquish and immediately changed my mind.


----------



## CanserDYI

It's here! One day After my bday.


----------



## CanserDYI

It plays absolutely amazing, the only feel I can compare the neck feel is actually a Taylor, and that's a compliment. The tung oiled neck feels amazing.


----------



## RevelGTR

.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

CanserDYI said:


> It's here! One day After my bday.


Nice. Happy Birthday, enjoy that new guitar.


----------



## Hollowway

OK, so now that I've bought that GIS ZBM7, I am thinking about leaning toward the "love" side of my love/hate relationship with Kiesel, and ordering a LS7. Here's a question for you guys (@spudmunkey @mbardu or any others with knowledge):

Do they have a pink stain I can get over quilted maple, or is that special order? I know they have trans pink over regular wood, and I've seen a "deep pink" type stain on quilted maple, but I'm not sure.

I know I can call in to find out, but I don't feel like talking on the phone this weekend, lol. I just wanna type.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Hollowway said:


> OK, so now that I've bought that GIS ZBM7, I am thinking about leaning toward the "love" side of my love/hate relationship with Kiesel, and ordering a LS7. Here's a question for you guys (@spudmunkey @mbardu or any others with knowledge):
> 
> Do they have a pink stain I can get over quilted maple, or is that special order? I know they have trans pink over regular wood, and I've seen a "deep pink" type stain on quilted maple, but I'm not sure.
> 
> I know I can call in to find out, but I don't feel like talking on the phone this weekend, lol. I just wanna type.


they have trans pink, and a candy pink finish, which they can do over basically any wood iirc. Candy pink is more expensive/opt 50 iirc.
This is the candy pink:


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> OK, so now that I've bought that GIS ZBM7, I am thinking about leaning toward the "love" side of my love/hate relationship with Kiesel, and ordering a LS7. Here's a question for you guys (@spudmunkey @mbardu or any others with knowledge):
> 
> Do they have a pink stain I can get over quilted maple, or is that special order? I know they have trans pink over regular wood, and I've seen a "deep pink" type stain on quilted maple, but I'm not sure.
> 
> I know I can call in to find out, but I don't feel like talking on the phone this weekend, lol. I just wanna type.



"Deep" finishes are just the same transparent paints, with a "deep" sanded-back stain under it. It used to be called "DTS" or "deep triple step" and used to be a $100 option, and about 10-ish years ago they made it standard on all flamed and quilted tops.

Here is Deep Pink with a purple burst, but lots of pink real estate to get a clear view of it on quilted maple:







You'll notice the pink candy (which @KnightBrolaire is correct, it's one of those "Jeff-only" finishes) is more of a multi-color look, with some purple highlights in it:


----------



## mbardu

Hollowway said:


> OK, so now that I've bought that GIS ZBM7, I am thinking about leaning toward the "love" side of my love/hate relationship with Kiesel, and ordering a LS7. Here's a question for you guys (@spudmunkey @mbardu or any others with knowledge):
> 
> Do they have a pink stain I can get over quilted maple, or is that special order? I know they have trans pink over regular wood, and I've seen a "deep pink" type stain on quilted maple, but I'm not sure.
> 
> I know I can call in to find out, but I don't feel like talking on the phone this weekend, lol. I just wanna type.





spudmunkey said:


> "Deep" finishes are just the same transparent paints, with a "deep" sanded-back stain under it. It used to be called "DTS" or "deep triple step" and used to be a $100 option, and about 10-ish years ago they made it standard on all flamed and quilted tops.
> 
> Here is Deep Pink with a purple burst, but lots of pink real estate to get a clear view of it on quilted maple:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You'll notice the pink candy (which @KnightBrolaire is correct, it's one of those "Jeff-only" finishes) is more of a multi-color look, with some purple highlights in it:



Hey while you're at it, you might as well post the original 





So as for this _particular _finish. They did a few translucent pink (no burst) guitars before the 2010s, but were pretty rare option 50s that were not very consistent.
The pink to purple, this one was a first for Carvin as far as I know. At the time, I asked them to use something with a bit more depth, contrast, warmth and purples than the pinks I had seen before - and ended up having to send them pictures of another guitar to color match. The pictures were from an Anderson, and they pretty much _nailed _it. It is bright AF, not a subtle pink at all  .

Now I know that you can get that finish if you ask for pink>purple burst. They've done quite a few since and they'll know what you mean even if it's not in the builder. The NS is an example of that.

But what I don't know is whether the central color is now what they offer in standard if you ask just for translucent pink. I've seen recent Kiesels described as "translucent pink" (no burst) and although that could as always be individual variations, my impression was that they were a _bit _more on the magenta side and a bit less in-your-face.


----------



## Hollowway

mbardu said:


> Hey while you're at it, you might as well post the original
> 
> View attachment 96471
> View attachment 96470
> 
> 
> So as for this _particular _finish. They did a few translucent pink (no burst) guitars before the 2010s, but were pretty rare option 50s that were not very consistent.
> The pink to purple, this one was a first for Carvin as far as I know. At the time, I asked them to use something with a bit more depth, contrast, warmth and purples than the pinks I had seen before - and ended up having to send them pictures of another guitar to color match. The pictures were from an Anderson, and they pretty much _nailed _it. It is bright AF, not a subtle pink at all  .
> 
> Now I know that you can get that finish if you ask for pink>purple burst. They've done quite a few since and they'll know what you mean even if it's not in the builder. The NS is an example of that.
> 
> But what I don't know is whether the central color is now what they offer in standard if you ask just for translucent pink. I've seen recent Kiesels described as "translucent pink" (no burst) and although that could as always be individual variations, my impression was that they were a _bit _more on the magenta side and a bit less in-your-face.


That pink to purple is killer, but I don’t even want to think of how much extra that is going to cost. Is that a Jeff only thing?


----------



## spudmunkey

To me, the more magenta-y ones are the Flamingo pink, I believe.


----------



## mbardu

Hollowway said:


> That pink to purple is killer, but I don’t even want to think of how much extra that is going to cost. Is that a Jeff only thing?



It's not a Jeff only, and it should cost less than the candy. I don't recall exactly, but I don't think I paid more than ~400$ on cosmetic options on this guitar, and that included both picking a chevron/Starburst type of top, as well the extra work and hassle for initial photo match. Granted, that was before a lot of price increases. 

It may make the guitar non returnable though. At least mine being the first one was non returnable.


----------



## Kyle Jordan

Damn... Those Trans Pink finishes are speaking to my soul. Looking great.


----------



## CanserDYI

Pink has been calling my name for a while now, I really want a shell pink S style, maybe Delos or Theos...god damnit Jeff you already got a few grand from me this year...


----------



## Hollowway

Yeah, I love pink finishes. I have been wanting a ZBM7 for a while now, and I had considered a quilt finish, but the bevel is so big on it that it really reduces the amount of top wood, so I figured a solid color looks better. At this point I don't want a particular guitar, but I DO want a pink top. So I just need to figure out what to put it on.  I wish they had more 8 string options, and I'd consider an Osiris with trem, if that were still an option, but maybe I should get something totally different, like the NS1 or a gambale or something. Gotta clear a couple things out before I do it, anyway.


----------



## BigViolin

I think you should just buy a pretty piece of wood and stain it pink and look at it.


----------



## CanserDYI

BigViolin said:


> I think you should just buy a pretty piece of wood and stain it pink and look at it.


Nope Warmoth just answered my itch...for about 1000 less than a kiesel. Doing a shell pink jazzcaster baritone esquire style, but still putting a neck route in case I want to add it later. 

Still want a sparkle or candy pink delos.


----------



## BigViolin

I should have quoted Hollowway's post above. 

The conversion necks are cool but I wish someone would redesign an aftermarket body with the proper bridge placement for baritone. That's my bitch though and your project sounds very cool.


----------



## BigViolin

CanserDYI said:


> Still want a sparkle or candy pink delos.



Oh yeah, a sparkle finish on a 7 string strat...oh my. I love the Ohmura's and had a real hard time not getting the Delos when it came out and all the pink sparkle pics were going around. Still got that gas.

Edit: $600 for sparkle. Is Marty Bell still in business? (kinda, $400 if he'll accept the job)


----------



## spudmunkey

I feel like I've already suggested it somewhere, but check out Kiesel's Pearl Pink. It seems like their light pink, but has a pearlescent top coat.

Note that this is different than the 80s Carvin "pearl pink", and different than their 2000's "translucent pearl pink".


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> I feel like I've already suggested it somewhere, but check out Kiesel's Pearl Pink. It seems like their light pink, but has a pearlescent top coat.
> 
> Note that this is different than the 80s Carvin "pearl pink", and different than their 2000's "translucent pearl pink".
> 
> View attachment 96504



Or don't be shy and go hot pink if you're not going for figured wood.


----------



## mbardu

CanserDYI said:


> Pink has been calling my name for a while now, I really want a shell pink S style, maybe Delos or Theos...god damnit Jeff you already got a few grand from me this year...





CanserDYI said:


> Nope Warmoth just answered my itch...for about 1000 less than a kiesel. Doing a shell pink jazzcaster baritone esquire style, but still putting a neck route in case I want to add it later.
> 
> Still want a sparkle or candy pink delos.



I was going to say used charvel Dk for a good doublecut in soft pink for a great price (~600$).


----------



## Hollowway

CanserDYI said:


> Nope Warmoth just answered my itch...for about 1000 less than a kiesel. Doing a shell pink jazzcaster baritone esquire style, but still putting a neck route in case I want to add it later.
> 
> Still want a sparkle or candy pink delos.


I've actually been talking with Warmoth this month about doing a Mooncaster. They don't have a pink stain, though, and won't do custom, so they recommended I contact GWM or another refinisher. Which I am absolutely not going to do, because my super power is the ability to turn a regular luthier into a scammer who drops off the face of the earth. And these refinishers seem like nice guys, so I don't want that to happen to them. 

But, I would LOVE a Mooncaster with a Floyd (yes, they'll do that!) in this finish:


----------



## BigViolin

Floyded Mooncaster. You may be an evil genius.

Do it.


----------



## CanserDYI

https://imgur.com/a/qJqXn4j 

Some aquaburst chatoyance for you guys....


----------



## hayfever

Is the bevel on the Aries comparable to a forearm contour on a typical superstrat? I'm interested in a bolt on neck with a forearm contour on the body but it seems like the contour is typical of the DC600 which is neckthrough, I might be having trouble wading through all the options though


----------



## MaxOfMetal

hayfever said:


> Is the bevel on the Aries comparable to a forearm contour on a typical superstrat? I'm interested in a bolt on neck with a forearm contour on the body but it seems like the contour is typical of the DC600 which is neckthrough, I might be having trouble wading through all the options though



Yeah, I'd say the Aries is comfortable if you're coming from something like an RG or M or Strat.


----------



## CanserDYI

hayfever said:


> Is the bevel on the Aries comparable to a forearm contour on a typical superstrat? I'm interested in a bolt on neck with a forearm contour on the body but it seems like the contour is typical of the DC600 which is neckthrough, I might be having trouble wading through all the options though


Its actually much much more beveled than a superstrat. Its very comfy, any angle your arm rests on it has a bevel, instead of just the one specific part of the bend on an RG.


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

Figure this would be a good spot to drop this since KieselguitarsBBS is dead:

Hey Guys,

Going to be specing out my first Kiesel Z6. I'm getting a little hung up on the neck wood. Seafoam green is the color choice. Couple of questions:

1. Is Walnut or Maple lighter weight wise? Going to request a lightweight alder body so want to maintain a good balance.
2. What fretboard material do you think would "match" the best with the walnut, should that be my choice?

If I'm going with maple, I plan on going with a birdseye maple board. For Walnut, I've toyed with ideas ranging from zebrawood to ebony but want something that compliments.

Thanks in advance for your opinions!


----------



## teamSKDM

Jeffrey Bain said:


> Figure this would be a good spot to drop this since KieselguitarsBBS is dead:
> 
> Hey Guys,
> 
> Going to be specing out my first Kiesel Z6. I'm getting a little hung up on the neck wood. Seafoam green is the color choice. Couple of questions:
> 
> 1. Is Walnut or Maple lighter weight wise? Going to request a lightweight alder body so want to maintain a good balance.
> 2. What fretboard material do you think would "match" the best with the walnut, should that be my choice?
> 
> If I'm going with maple, I plan on going with a birdseye maple board. For Walnut, I've toyed with ideas ranging from zebrawood to ebony but want something that compliments.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your opinions!


from what i understand walnut is the hardest , heaviest and strongest neck wood offered by kiesel. ebony is my favorite fretboard wood they offer and most consistent. i wouldnt go with the figured woods like zebrawood as a fretboard as its a gamble as to if youll get a piece youll like or not. seen enough horror stories of people being disgusted with the figuring of their fretboards from kiesel because the figuring wasnt the same or similar enough to what they expected based off examples they saw on the internet.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Jeffrey Bain said:


> Figure this would be a good spot to drop this since KieselguitarsBBS is dead:
> 
> Hey Guys,
> 
> Going to be specing out my first Kiesel Z6. I'm getting a little hung up on the neck wood. Seafoam green is the color choice. Couple of questions:
> 
> 1. Is Walnut or Maple lighter weight wise? Going to request a lightweight alder body so want to maintain a good balance.
> 2. What fretboard material do you think would "match" the best with the walnut, should that be my choice?
> 
> If I'm going with maple, I plan on going with a birdseye maple board. For Walnut, I've toyed with ideas ranging from zebrawood to ebony but want something that compliments.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your opinions!


walnut and maple both vary a lot in weight. Alder and maple is a pretty classic combo tbh. Personally I'd go with that. 

I'd just say go with something other than lithiums for that combo as they can be quite bright/thin in most guitars.


----------



## CanserDYI

Jeffrey Bain said:


> Figure this would be a good spot to drop this since KieselguitarsBBS is dead:
> 
> Hey Guys,
> 
> Going to be specing out my first Kiesel Z6. I'm getting a little hung up on the neck wood. Seafoam green is the color choice. Couple of questions:
> 
> 1. Is Walnut or Maple lighter weight wise? Going to request a lightweight alder body so want to maintain a good balance.
> 2. What fretboard material do you think would "match" the best with the walnut, should that be my choice?
> 
> If I'm going with maple, I plan on going with a birdseye maple board. For Walnut, I've toyed with ideas ranging from zebrawood to ebony but want something that compliments.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your opinions!


Just got myself a solid walnut neck with Royal Ebony board, and its sexy as all hell and nice and smooth and a bit lighter than my Maple and Mahogany guitars.


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

CanserDYI said:


> Just got myself a solid walnut neck with Royal Ebony board, and its sexy as all hell and nice and smooth and a bit lighter than my Maple and Mahogany guitars.


how closely do the colors of the walnut and Royal match up?


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

KnightBrolaire said:


> walnut and maple both vary a lot in weight. Alder and maple is a pretty classic combo tbh. Personally I'd go with that.
> 
> I'd just say go with something other than lithiums for that combo as they can be quite bright/thin in most guitars.



Definitely going to be going with the Beryllium pickups as opposed to the lithiums. Will likely swap if they aren't to my liking.


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

teamSKDM said:


> from what i understand walnut is the hardest , heaviest and strongest neck wood offered by kiesel. ebony is my favorite fretboard wood they offer and most consistent. i wouldnt go with the figured woods like zebrawood as a fretboard as its a gamble as to if youll get a piece youll like or not. seen enough horror stories of people being disgusted with the figuring of their fretboards from kiesel because the figuring wasnt the same or similar enough to what they expected based off examples they saw on the internet.


This is actually a good point... Thinking of maybe keeping it more simple on the fretboard would is a safer bet instead of going for something too wild. Zebrawood I saw as pretty consistent but man does that Royal Ebony scare me. Some of it is amazing and others...... ooof.


----------



## CanserDYI

Jeffrey Bain said:


> how closely do the colors of the walnut and Royal match up?


I'll get a pic for you one minute


----------



## mbardu

Jeffrey Bain said:


> how closely do the colors of the walnut and Royal match up?




Getting an exact match is going to be tricky as both woods can vary. In your shoes I'd go for maple fretboard with walnut neck, in order to get a nice contrast going.

The walnut neck will have a slight porous-but-not-too-much feel to it that i find lovely to play. Highly recommend! Don't overthink the balance. A z6 will balance well.


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

mbardu said:


> Getting an exact match is going to be tricky as both woods can vary. In your shoes I'd go for maple fretboard with walnut neck, in order to get a nice contrast going.
> 
> The walnut neck will have a slight porous-but-not-too-much feel to it that i find lovely to play. Highly recommend! Don't overthink the balance. A z6 will balance well.


Thanks man appreciate the insight. I did think it would be kinda cool to go with the dark color for the neck and lighter for the fretboard. Decisions decisions....


----------



## CanserDYI

USER_SCOPED_TEMP_DATA_MSGR_PHOTO_FOR_UPLOAD_1628612990312_6830897979720713398



__ CanserDYI
__ Aug 10, 2021






Some parts match up really well, some parts are nice and dark against the brown walnut, either way I love it. The flash makes the walnut look closer to Mahogany or roasted maple, but its quite chocolatey actually.


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

CanserDYI said:


> USER_SCOPED_TEMP_DATA_MSGR_PHOTO_FOR_UPLOAD_1628612990312_6830897979720713398
> 
> 
> 
> __ CanserDYI
> __ Aug 10, 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some parts match up really well, some parts are nice and dark against the brown walnut, either way I love it. The flash makes the walnut look closer to Mahogany or roasted maple, but its quite chocolatey actually.


I was gonna say that's a bit concerning how light the walnut is but glad to hear it's deeper in person. Hoping to err more on the side of a deep brown/almost PRS McCarty Rosewood neck color.


----------



## CanserDYI

I have a Mahogany body and walnut neck, and I absolutely LOVE the lithium bridge for what I do. It has a very single coil quack to it that I really enjoy, and a very crisp high end that can be on the shrill side, but I'd rather have that and EQ it out than to have a dark pickup and dark guitar.


----------



## CanserDYI

Here is a much better light from Kiesel showroom, really shows off the chocolate character of the Walnut.


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

CanserDYI said:


> View attachment 96575
> 
> Here is a much better light from Kiesel showroom, really shows off the chocolate character of the Walnut.


That's much better! Looks great


----------



## bigcupholder

Jeffrey Bain said:


> Figure this would be a good spot to drop this since KieselguitarsBBS is dead:
> 
> Hey Guys,
> 
> Going to be specing out my first Kiesel Z6. I'm getting a little hung up on the neck wood. Seafoam green is the color choice. Couple of questions:
> 
> 1. Is Walnut or Maple lighter weight wise? Going to request a lightweight alder body so want to maintain a good balance.
> 2. What fretboard material do you think would "match" the best with the walnut, should that be my choice?
> 
> If I'm going with maple, I plan on going with a birdseye maple board. For Walnut, I've toyed with ideas ranging from zebrawood to ebony but want something that compliments.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your opinions!


Walnut is lighter than maple but wood varies a lot. Walnut is softer but more stable. Walnut is in between mahogany and maple in weight, stiffness, hardness and stability (yes, mahogany is more stable than maple).

Consider mahogany for the neck as it's the lightest neck wood they offer and the carbon fibre rods fix the only problem with mahogany (stiffness). But if you want an oil finish on the neck, walnut is much smoother.

Ebony looks good with walnut. Rosewood would clash due to being different hues of brown.



teamSKDM said:


> from what i understand walnut is the hardest , heaviest and strongest neck wood offered by kiesel.


This is not true at all. Maple is heavier, harder and stiffer than walnut.

Kiesel also offers cocobolo necks occasionally but they're expensive. It's significantly harder, stiffer and heavier than maple.


----------



## teamSKDM

bigcupholder said:


> Walnut is lighter than maple but wood varies a lot. Walnut is softer but more stable. Walnut is in between mahogany and maple in weight, stiffness, hardness and stability (yes, mahogany is more stable than maple).
> 
> Consider mahogany for the neck as it's the lightest neck wood they offer and the carbon fibre rods fix the only problem with mahogany (stiffness). But if you want an oil finish on the neck, walnut is much smoother.
> 
> Ebony looks good with walnut. Rosewood would clash due to being different hues of brown.
> 
> 
> This is not true at all. Maple is heavier, harder and stiffer than walnut.
> 
> Kiesel also offers cocobolo necks occasionally but they're expensive. It's significantly harder, stiffer and heavier than maple.



ive heard jeff say his favorite neck wood is walnut but interperet that how you want , ive heard many owners say their walnut necks are less prone to climate change than their maple counterparts despite maple being harder


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

I think I'm going to go with Walnut for the neck and either Zebrawood or birdseye for the fingerboard. Really lean into the color difference. I think it would be kinda unique.


----------



## spudmunkey

Jeffrey Bain said:


> I think I'm going to go with Walnut for the neck and either Zebrawood or birdseye for the fingerboard. Really lean into the color difference. I think it would be kinda unique.


I'd agree with that. Better to contrast, than look like you tried to match and failed...like wearing clothes in two different blacks. 

And FWIW, you also did receive about 6 replies over on the BBS as well, in case you wanted to check those out.


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

spudmunkey said:


> I'd agree with that. Better to contrast, that look like you tried to match and failed...like wearing clothes in two different blacks.
> 
> And FWIW, you also did receive about 6 replies over on the BBS as well, in case you wanted to check those out.


Thanks Spud! Going to take a peak over there now, appreciate the heads up!


----------



## mbardu

Jeffrey Bain said:


> I think I'm going to go with Walnut for the neck and either Zebrawood or birdseye for the fingerboard. Really lean into the color difference. I think it would be kinda unique.



Walnut plus birdseye is always a win


----------



## spudmunkey

Here's some "scrap" zebrewood, on my walnut floors. Pardon the dust/cat hair...I normally sweep later in the day. 







This zebrawood isn't sanded or finished, though, so it'll be slightly more golden/warmer with darker stripes when it's finished up on as a fretboard.

This is what it looks like with shellac (I already sent it off to it's new owner, so I don't have a photo with it finished with the walnut). As a fretboard, the color would be between this and the previous photo.


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

spudmunkey said:


> Here's some "scrap" zebrewood, on my walnut floors. Pardon the dust/cat hair...I normally sweep later in the day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This zebrawood isn't sanded or finished, though, so it'll be slightly more golden/warmer with darker stripes when it's finished up on as a fretboard.
> 
> This is what it looks like with shellac (I already sent it off to it's new owner, so I don't have a photo with it finished with the walnut). As a fretboard, the color would be between this and the previous photo.


Had trouble loading the photos at first but remembered the ole reply to reveal trick.

2nd photo looks Awesome. Definitely digging the kinda golden tones coming through. Very unique and within the realm of returnable.

Thinking now Surf Green (thanks again Spud), solid walnut neck (requesting dark color, light weight, if that exists in their lot), zebrawood fingerboard with no dots

I think I would prefer a tighter grain on the zebrawood as opposed to wider chunks of color variation. Think they’d be able to work with me on that as well?


----------



## bigcupholder

teamSKDM said:


> ive heard jeff say his favorite neck wood is walnut but interperet that how you want , ive heard many owners say their walnut necks are less prone to climate change than their maple counterparts despite maple being harder


Yeah, in general the hardness and stability of wood are not related.

Hardest to softest: maple, walnut, mahogany

Most stable to least stable: mahogany, walnut, maple


----------



## spudmunkey

...and most stable doesn't mean "stiffest", either. Mahogany isn't as stiff as maple or walnut.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I wouldn't go by the physical properties. Individual selection and construction will make a far bigger difference in stability. 

Get what looks pretty and/or fits your budget.


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

MaxOfMetal said:


> I wouldn't go by the physical properties. Individual selection and construction will make a far bigger difference in stability.
> 
> Get what looks pretty and/or fits your budget.


I would say in general this is my theory. Stability is low on my totem pole. Balance and weight however is rather important to me for this build! Want to save my lower back as much as possible. Wondering if the $150 cambering is worth it.


----------



## CanserDYI

Jeffrey Bain said:


> I would say in general this is my theory. Stability is low on my totem pole. Balance and weight however is! Want to save my lower back as much as possible. Wondering if the $150 cambering is worth it.


I would say no. I picked all their heaviest woods and the guitar is maybe 8 pounds


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Jeffrey Bain said:


> I would say in general this is my theory. Stability is low on my totem pole. Balance and weight however is rather important to me for this build! Want to save my lower back as much as possible. Wondering if the $150 cambering is worth it.



Due to natural variances in density, it's just about impossible to base weight on the species. If it's a major concern, voice it to your sales person when you put in the order, in the past they used to be able to help select especially light or heavy pieces when available.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> Due to natural variances in density, it's just about impossible to base weight on the species. If it's a major concern, voice it to your sales person when you put in the order, in the past they used to be able to help select especially light or heavy pieces when available.



Never been worth it imo.
Asked for lightweight like 8 years ago on a contour 66 and got a 9 pounds guitar. Asked for it on my Vader 2 years ago and got a headless that's not _that_ far from 7 pounds. In the meantime I randomly got a CT that was a good chunk under 7 pounds without asking


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

mbardu said:


> Never been worth it imo.
> Asked for lightweight like 8 years ago on a contour 66 and got a 9 pounds guitar. Asked for it on my Vader 2 years ago and got a headless that's not _that_ far from 7 pounds. In the meantime I randomly got a CT that was a good chunk under 7 pounds without asking


Well that kinda sucks TBH... my goal is a build to come in sub 6 pounds. Maybe chambering is a must if that's my goal....


----------



## mbardu

Jeffrey Bain said:


> Well that kinda sucks TBH... my goal is a build to come in sub 6 pounds. Maybe chambering is a must if that's my goal....



Mahogany body/mahogany top with chambering and fixed bridge will give you the highest likelihood to be under 6 pounds. The trem guitars are heavier because they use a _massive _block. 

My Vader is a 7-string with a trem, so that's why it's on the chunkier side.


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

mbardu said:


> Mahogany body/mahogany top with chambering and fixed bridge will give you the highest likelihood to be under 6 pounds. The trem guitars are heavier because they use a _massive _block.
> 
> My Vader is a 7-string with a trem, so that's why it's on the chunkier side.


I’ll be going with a 6 string hardtail version so hoping that’ll shave some weight

anyone have a preferred sales person they like dealing with? An email address would be perfect. I’ve heard good things about Chris?


----------



## CanserDYI

Chris Hong is the absolute champ, great guy, answered every email I sent him, even helped me out with checking in on the instrument as I had to leave town and didn't want it to ship with me out of state. Really good dude and fantastic guitar player too.


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

CanserDYI said:


> Chris Hong is the absolute champ, great guy, answered every email I sent him, even helped me out with checking in on the instrument as I had to leave town and didn't want it to ship with me out of state. Really good dude and fantastic guitar player too.


Would you mind sharing his email or should I just call and ask him for it? lol


----------



## bigcupholder

Jeffrey Bain said:


> Well that kinda sucks TBH... my goal is a build to come in sub 6 pounds. Maybe chambering is a must if that's my goal....



Below 6 pounds with a headstock is very unlikely from Kiesel. Their chambering is not that extreme. I ordered mine chambered and it still came to roughly 8 lbs as a hardtail 6 string. You'd likely have to pay for chambering and an additional charge for selecting the lightest wood they have in stock, which I should have done.


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

bigcupholder said:


> Below 6 pounds with a headstock is very unlikely from Kiesel. Their chambering is not that extreme. I ordered mine chambered and it still came to roughly 8 lbs as a hardtail 6 string. You'd likely have to pay for chambering and an additional charge for selecting the lightest wood they have in stock, which I should have done.


May not have been clear but my build is a Zeus 6, so completely headless.


----------



## bigcupholder

Jeffrey Bain said:


> May not have been clear but my build is a Zeus 6, so completely headless.


My bad. That's an entirely realistic expectation then. I had a 7 string Vader that weighted 5.5 lbs - swamp ash, not chambered, no lighter wood upgrade (though it probably had lighter wood by luck). The Vader should be heavier than the Zeus due to the neck thru construction resulting in more of the heavier neck wood.


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

bigcupholder said:


> My bad. That's an entirely realistic expectation then. I had a 7 string Vader that weighted 5.5 lbs - swamp ash, not chambered, no lighter wood upgrade (though it probably had lighter wood by luck). The Vader should be heavier than the Zeus due to the neck thru construction resulting in more of the heavier neck wood.


Thiiiiiis is what I like to hear! Thanks for the insight. If I could get under 5 pounds I would be absolutely ecstatic. My lower back aches as I type this lol


----------



## CanserDYI

Jeffrey Bain said:


> Thiiiiiis is what I like to hear! Thanks for the insight. If I could get under 5 pounds I would be absolutely ecstatic. My lower back aches as I type this lol


Just weighed my Mahogany bodied, quilt maple topped, walnut necked, headstock apparent guitar and it weighs 7.4 pounds. Non chambered. Granted it is a vanquish, which Jeff designed to be a "headless guitar for people who dislike headless" so its much much smaller in body than something like an Aries, but I think under 6 pounds for your Zeus is definitely a realm of possibility.


----------



## bigcupholder

Jeffrey Bain said:


> Thiiiiiis is what I like to hear! Thanks for the insight. If I could get under 5 pounds I would be absolutely ecstatic. My lower back aches as I type this lol


If weight is that important to you, it's worth paying for at least one of the chambering or lighter wood selection, maybe both. At least ask your salesperson. 

Don't cheap out on options that matter to you - in a year you won't remember if the guitar cost $100 more, but you'll remember if you skipped an option that you should've gotten. That's the lesson I learned.

Or just try your luck and return it if it comes in too heavy.


----------



## spudmunkey

Sub 6 lbs should be pretty easy/common, but sub 5? I dont know if I've ever seen one of their guitars listed for that light. Not saying they can't do it, just that I haven't seen it.

I suspect Kiesel would say the lightest possible guitar would be a headless bolt-on or Holdsworth with a swamp ash body and top, chambered, mahogany neck, and roasted maple fretboard.

A few years back they had a couple pieces of Empresswood which was said to be even lighter than ash, but I have no idea if they still have any.


If it helps you at all, my Aries with an ash body, maple neck and royal abony FB is 6.6lbs. My SH6 with a semi-hollow ash body, burled maple top, maple/purpleheart neck and ziricote fretboard is 6.8lbs.


----------



## bostjan

Jeffrey Bain said:


> Thiiiiiis is what I like to hear! Thanks for the insight. If I could get under 5 pounds I would be absolutely ecstatic. My lower back aches as I type this lol


The Parker Fly was 4-4.5 lbs. Those guitars were razor thin and entirely reinforced with carbon fiber. I'm not sure sub 5 is a realistic goal with traditional construction methods.

There are a few full customs out there that closed in on 2 pounds, though. I own one of them. The other is the Emerald Alien guitar. So, if you work with a crazy enough luthier, anything could be possible. Not sure what the lightest Kiesel weighs, though.


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

S


bostjan said:


> The Parker Fly was 4-4.5 lbs. Those guitars were razor thin and entirely reinforced with carbon fiber. I'm not sure sub 5 is a realistic goal with traditional construction methods.
> 
> There are a few full customs out there that closed in on 2 pounds, though. I own one of them. The other is the Emerald Alien guitar. So, if you work with a crazy enough luthier, anything could be possible. Not sure what the lightest Kiesel weighs, though.



Sub 5 may be unrealistic but I've seen it on many of the strandberg's so was hoping it could be achieved because of that fact (edited for clarity and spelling). Definitely going to ask the salesperson about all the options I have to make it as light as possible, don't mind paying a bit extra


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Sub 6 lbs should be pretty easy/common, but sub 5? I dont know if I've ever seen one of their guitars listed for that light. Not saying they can't do it, just that I haven't seen it.
> 
> I suspect Kiesel would say the lightest possible guitar would be a headless bolt-on or Holdsworth with a swamp ash body and top, chambered, mahogany neck, and roasted maple fretboard.
> 
> A few years back they had a couple pieces of Empresswood which was said to be *even lighter than ash*, but I have no idea if they still have any.
> 
> 
> If it helps you at all, my Aries with an ash body, maple neck and royal abony FB is 6.6lbs. My SH6 with a semi-hollow ash body, burled maple top, maple/purpleheart neck and ziricote fretboard is 6.8lbs.



That's not saying much. My 9+ pounds chonker is my Contour 66, and it has an ash body....that I requested as light


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

mbardu said:


> That's not saying much. My 9+ pounds chonker is my Contour 66, and it has an ash body....that I requested as light



Curious did you pay for the lighter wood selection or did you just float the idea to the salesman?


----------



## mbardu

Jeffrey Bain said:


> Curious did you pay for the lighter wood selection or did you just float the idea to the salesman?



It was a while ago, so even less organized than today in terms of "custom" requests. I paid one "lump" sum for "wood selection" that was to include: highly figured flamed maple top with a starburst pattern (pretty rare thing for Carvin/Kiesel I was actually able to pick the top from a few), highly figured one-piece ash body, lightweight woods.

In fairness, they did tell me they may not be able to get me the _lightest _piece while getting the most figured ones. Which makes sense, of course.
But I didn't expect them to go out of their way to specifically find me the _heaviest _piece of ash known to man  .
In fairness #2, the Contour is also a big guitar, wider than most superstrats, and not even that thin.
At the end of the day I love the guitar - which looks killer, so no ragrets.


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> In fairness, they did tell me they may not be able to get me the _lightest _piece while getting the most figured ones. Which makes sense, of course.
> But I didn't expect them to go out of their way to specifically find me the _heaviest _piece of ash known to man  .



Shortly after the SB4000/SB5000 basses launched years back, they actually started hand-sorting their ash. Because the bodies were larger than most others, the basses were coming out like boat anchors...if i remember right, there were some that were, like, 14lbs. It was also the first model to offer chambering.

I *think* they either changed ash suppliers since then, or they are supposedly pickier and only buying lighter ash than they were accepting previously.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

spudmunkey said:


> Shortly after the SB4000/SB5000 basses launched years back, they actually started hand-sorting their ash. Because the bodies were larger than most others, the basses were coming out like boat anchors...if i remember right, there were some that were, like, 14lbs. It was also the first model to offer chambering.
> 
> I *think* they either changed ash suppliers since then, or they are supposedly pickier and only buying lighter ash than they were accepting previously.


Yikes! 14 lbs, the SB was a cool model. I was surprised it was such short lived.


----------



## mbardu

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> Yikes! 14 lbs, the SB was a cool model. I was surprised it was such short lived.



Its legacy lives on as a headless.
And by that, I mean the TBM5 is tempting AF.


----------



## spudmunkey

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> Yikes! 14 lbs, the SB was a cool model. I was surprised it was such short lived.



There was some drama there, between Carvin and Sekou when it came to ownership of the design, from what I've heard. I've heard rumors/gossip, but nothing I'd be comfortable sharing as I have no proof of any of it....but supposedly it was pretty messy.


----------



## bigcupholder

Jeffrey Bain said:


> S
> 
> 
> Sub 5 may be unrealistic but I've seen it on many of the strandberg's so was hoping it could be achieved because of that fact (edited for clarity and spelling). Definitely going to ask the salesperson about all the options I have to make it as light as possible, don't mind paying a bit extra


If you're going all out to reduce weight, you could also swap out the metal knobs with plastic ones. Ask if they could put the Delos-style knobs on it (if those are plastic). It'd probably shave off ~0.2 lbs if I had to guess. Or do the tone-knob-delete option, but beware that even if you always leave the tone knob at 10 it's still in the circuit so it'll be brighter without.


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

Thanks for the input everyone. $100 bucks to select lighter woods. Z6 comes in according to Chris Hong right around 6 pounds, even without asking for the lighter woods. I should be well within my wheel house as far as weight goes. Going to be placing my order pretty soon, just stewing a couple of days before settling on the Surf Green


----------



## CanserDYI

bigcupholder said:


> If you're going all out to reduce weight, you could also swap out the metal knobs with plastic ones. Ask if they could put the Delos-style knobs on it (if those are plastic). It'd probably shave off ~0.2 lbs if I had to guess. Or do the tone-knob-delete option, but beware that even if you always leave the tone knob at 10 it's still in the circuit so it'll be brighter without.


I mean none of what youre saying is wrong, but we're talking the equivalent of half a cell phone here.


----------



## mbardu

Jeffrey Bain said:


> Thanks for the input everyone. $100 bucks to select lighter woods. Z6 comes in according to Chris Hong right around 6 pounds, even without asking for the lighter woods. I should be well within my wheel house as far as weight goes. Going to be placing my order pretty soon, just stewing a couple of days before settling on the *Surf Green*



You spelled "blue mist metallic" wrong


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

mbardu said:


> You spelled "blue mist metallic" wrong


LMAO you're killin me

EDIT: Man that blue mist metallic is pretty awesome.... Guess I'm gonna be printing out some pictures of both and putting them on my mirror to see which one I like more over time


----------



## spudmunkey

In total/summary, here are ways they specifically can keep weight low:

Headless will be lighter than a guitar with a headstock
Certain Models/Body style are lighter than others, 6-strings are lighter than 8-strings, etc.
Fixed bridge instead of a trem
Selecting the optional bevels where possible, like on the DC600 and Solo lines
Wood selection: opting for typically lighter species
Wood selection: hand selection within the species for lighter pieces
Optional chambering
Bolt-on is typically lighter than neck-through
On a guitar with a headstock, selecting the optional pearloid knobs instead of the standard metal
Wood or plastic control knobs vs the standard (on most models) knurled metal dome knobs
Going with their non-locking tuners
Pickup delete (either neck pickup only or bridge pickup only)
Their "Holdsworth" or CT headstock are their smallest/most compact headstocks
Control knob delete
Thin neck option
Going with a clear finish vs a paint
Tung oil for the body and neck or their "Ultra Thin Raw Tone Satin Finish" for the body
22 fret guitars vs 24 fret guitars because they have 2 fewer metal frets (and on some models like the CT6 and CS6 it actually make the neck shorter because the whole scale (including the bridge) shifts over those 2 frets, shortening the neck.
single color logos, as opposed to the "drop shadow" logos which use two logo decals layered on top of each other (OK, this one was just for fun...but *technically* true.


----------



## CanserDYI

Shame on you for that last one, Spud lololol


----------



## CanserDYI

Didnt get an answer on the BBS, so hope someone here knows, does anyone know if the hipshot tuner buttons fit on Kiesel tuners? I want some of those industrial barrel knobs...


----------



## SymmetricScars

mbardu said:


> You spelled "blue mist metallic" wrong


Speaking of blue mist metallic, I may have just done something impulsive...but my VM7 was lonely!


----------



## mbardu

CanserDYI said:


> Didnt get an answer on the BBS, so hope someone here knows, does anyone know if the hipshot tuner buttons fit on Kiesel tuners? I want some of those industrial barrel knobs...



Looks to me like they do.
Taken a quick look and it looks like I don't actually have any that are _incompatible_.
From what I checked now, Gotoh/Hipshot/Carvin/Kiesel/Import Jackson or LTD branded buttons all seem interchangeable.


----------



## spudmunkey

Someone recently on Facebook:


----------



## CanserDYI

spudmunkey said:


> Someone recently on Facebook:
> View attachment 96680


Dude, seriously not even going to lie I was about 5 minutes away from going back and pressing purchase, you are a god send Spud, lol.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Someone recently on Facebook:
> View attachment 96680





CanserDYI said:


> Dude, seriously not even going to lie I was about 5 minutes away from going back and pressing purchase, you are a god send Spud, lol.



Don't know what to tell you @CanserDYI , I literally took a couple buttons of my Hipshot grip-loks and put them onto my Kiesel tuners to verify, and they worked as normal.
Last thing I'd want is to send anyone down a wrong path, sorry


----------



## CanserDYI

mbardu said:


> Don't know what to tell you @CanserDYI , I literally took a couple buttons of my Hipshot grip-loks and put them onto my Kiesel tuners to verify, and they worked as normal.
> Last thing I'd want is to send anyone down a wrong path, sorry


Wondering if its just those industrials, because literally just checked my grip lock modern buttoned one or whatever and it went on my kiesel just fine....


----------



## mbardu

CanserDYI said:


> Wondering if its just those industrials, because literally just checked my grip lock modern buttoned one or whatever and it went on my kiesel just fine....



I'll admit I don't know what industrial tuner buttons are. Just tested with whatever hipshot I had around.


----------



## CanserDYI

The ones on Keith Merrow Schecters, look kind of like headless tuner keys just up on the headstock. I think they look rad, personally.


----------



## spudmunkey

Weird that those Industrial knobs fit several different Hipshot tuners, but they don't fit the Kiesel which fits other Hipshot knobs.


----------



## mbardu

CanserDYI said:


> The ones on Keith Merrow Schecters, look kind of like headless tuner keys just up on the headstock. I think they look rad, personally.



Oh those have names? I would just usually refer to them as "those ridiculous useless tuners that are a large step back in tuning ease"


----------



## xzacx

Fake LSRs basically.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Heh, Yamaha did it with a budget guitar fifteen years ago.


----------



## odibrom

MaxOfMetal said:


> Heh, Yamaha did it with a budget guitar fifteen years ago.
> 
> View attachment 96693



I've always been curious on those, futuristic and cool in design, too bad those didn't stick for long...


----------



## CanserDYI

That thing is sick as fuck IMHO.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

odibrom said:


> I've always been curious on those, futuristic and cool in design, too bad those didn't stick for long...





CanserDYI said:


> That thing is sick as fuck IMHO.



They were cool as heck. Way ahead of their time. If they came out today folks would be all about them. 

They still pop up used for pretty cheap. Would recommend if you want something different and don't want to spend a bunch.


----------



## josh1

MaxOfMetal said:


> Heh, Yamaha did it with a budget guitar fifteen years ago.
> 
> View attachment 96693


Did not think I would leave this thread wanting a Yamaha guitar but now I do. Great...


----------



## Randy

I had one of those a couple years back, I think I posted a NGD here. 

Good playing guitar. The LEDs were awesome in person. Nothing bad to say about it really, only complaint was that I bought it to try out the "alternative" construction thing which advertised being lightweight and it was but the neck was HEAVY, so it had weird neck dive for a basic superstrat type shape. 

I really liked the Steiny style tuners. Less prone to going out of tune from bumping, especially propping it against the wall/desk like I often do.


----------



## Hollowway

I remember those Yamahas. I never had the desire to own one, but I remember seeing them, and thinking, "Someone at Yamaha really likes Apple." It looked a lot like Apple stuff of that era to me.


----------



## CanserDYI

https://imgur.com/a/qxNNwMM
Checked wiring and all looks sound, was working just fine yesterday, now neck pickup has no output. Any ideas?


----------



## fps

I actually love the Hyperdrive design, can't lie. In a 7 it's just so striking. Would love to own one some day.


----------



## bigcupholder

CanserDYI said:


> https://imgur.com/a/qxNNwMM
> Checked wiring and all looks sound, was working just fine yesterday, now neck pickup has no output. Any ideas?


Cold solder joint, maybe? Switches do go bad, or get burned up when soldering, but I'd try re-soldering first, then replacing the switch after that.


----------



## Themistocles

About ready to pull the trigger on another Kiesel (last one was my beloved Carvin 747 21 years ago!). Couple of questions:

Im thinking a Vader 7 in black limba body and neck... with a swamp ash top (anyone try those woods together? Also should I get a laminate neck with the limba for more stability? I mean I have a 2 piece quartersawn alder necked DC747 and it never goes out of tune and I have a minor phobia of multilaminate necks becoming like dead hippy sandwich bodies... as I like them very lively (like my alder neck) so would a walnut or bloodwood strips dampen that resonance?

That said who's hungry for a dead hippy sandwich? Made from either real dead hippies or the things that hippies liked to eat? (important question lol) 

Im trying to avoid maple with this build as every other guitar I have has maple on it somewhere and well... I like variety.

Color will be the very rare version of blue mist metallic technically called transparent orange.


----------



## mbardu

Themistocles said:


> About ready to pull the trigger on another Kiesel (last one was my beloved Carvin 747 21 years ago!). Couple of questions:
> 
> Im thinking a Vader 7 in black limba body and neck... with a swamp ash top (anyone try those woods together? Also should I get a laminate neck with the limba for more stability? I mean I have a 2 piece quartersawn alder necked DC747 and it never goes out of tune and I have a minor phobia of multilaminate necks becoming like dead hippy sandwich bodies... as I like them very lively (like my alder neck) so would a walnut or bloodwood strips dampen that resonance?
> 
> That said who's hungry for a dead hippy sandwich? Made from either real dead hippies or the things that hippies liked to eat? (important question lol)
> 
> Im trying to avoid maple with this build as every other guitar I have has maple on it somewhere and well... I like variety.
> 
> Color will be the very rare version of blue mist metallic technically called transparent orange.



You don't _need _a multipiece neck to have it be stable. It _can _improve things a bit (even then- that's variable and not guaranteed to what degree), but it's not going to be a dramatic difference either, especially now with the carbon rods in the neck.

I do have a guitar on order with _roasted _black limba body and swamp ash top, but it's still a few months away and will be a first for me (I think). Not a Kiesel, but I have high hopes and I am really _really_ looking forward to it.


----------



## narad

Anyone know if you can still get a Carvin logo on a Holdsworth model? Didn't see the option in the quote form.

Edit: ah, guy got back to me after a few days right after I posted this. Kiesel only. I don't think I want to pay new price for something that isn't exactly what I want here, even if it's just the vintage vibes of a Carvin logo.


----------



## Themistocles

mbardu said:


> You don't _need _a multipiece neck to have it be stable. It _can _improve things a bit (even then- that's variable and not guaranteed to what degree), but it's not going to be a dramatic difference either, especially now with the carbon rods in the neck.
> 
> I do have a guitar on order with _roasted _black limba body and swamp ash top, but it's still a few months away and will be a first for me (I think). Not a Kiesel, but I have high hopes and I am really _really_ looking forward to it.


Yeah I really like ash of all kinds, swamp, northern even sen (which isnnt ash at all but looks and acts like it) but I have been very into Korina guitars for a long time though never owned one. I need this as a fly gig guitar to travel the world with me. Perhaps black limba is very stable? My alder necked one certainly is. Maple is a funny wood... it can really twist and have all sorts of memory that turns its stiffness against you. The carbon fiber adds rigidity and they always do quartersawn necks so Im not really certain Id gain anything by it being a multilam. Probably just throw the $$$ at jeff picking a cool top and or fretboard.


----------



## spudmunkey

narad said:


> Anyone know if you can still get a Carvin logo on a Holdsworth model? Didn't see the option in the quote form.
> 
> Edit: ah, guy got back to me after a few days right after I posted this. Kiesel only. I don't think I want to pay new price for something that isn't exactly what I want here, even if it's just the vintage vibes of a Carvin logo.



As the transition was happening, they would let you get a Kiesel logo on anything badged as a Carvin, but not the other way. If a model was released as a Kiesel, or transitioned to Kiesel like they slowly did for a while, they wouldn't go back.

Currently the only models still availble with Carvin on the headstock as standard (with the Kiesel logo as an option) is the JB200C, and the PB4/PB5 basses. I imagine for no other reason than retaining the Carvin trademark so nobody else can pick it up and use it.


----------



## Hollowway

Themistocles said:


> About ready to pull the trigger on another Kiesel (last one was my beloved Carvin 747 21 years ago!). Couple of questions:
> 
> Im thinking a Vader 7 in black limba body and neck... with a swamp ash top (anyone try those woods together? Also should I get a laminate neck with the limba for more stability? I mean I have a 2 piece quartersawn alder necked DC747 and it never goes out of tune and I have a minor phobia of multilaminate necks becoming like dead hippy sandwich bodies... as I like them very lively (like my alder neck) so would a walnut or bloodwood strips dampen that resonance?
> 
> That said who's hungry for a dead hippy sandwich? Made from either real dead hippies or the things that hippies liked to eat? (important question lol)
> 
> Im trying to avoid maple with this build as every other guitar I have has maple on it somewhere and well... I like variety.
> 
> Color will be the very rare version of blue mist metallic technically called transparent orange.



That would be an interesting choice of woods, with the front being ash. I typically see ash as the body wood, not the top wood, so that would be a unique look. And the orange would go well with the korina. What are you doing for the FB? I hate to phone it in with a standard ebony, but that would probably look best here. Or maybe BEM?


----------



## Themistocles

royal ebony is the likely choice... I have to travel with it internationally so I need to clear with cites but if its documented and Kiesel does it shouldnt be an issue.


----------



## Hoss632

mbardu said:


> You don't _need _a multipiece neck to have it be stable. It _can _improve things a bit (even then- that's variable and not guaranteed to what degree), but it's not going to be a dramatic difference either, especially now with the carbon rods in the neck.
> 
> I do have a guitar on order with _roasted _black limba body and swamp ash top, but it's still a few months away and will be a first for me (I think). Not a Kiesel, but I have high hopes and I am really _really_ looking forward to it.


Who did you order from that does roasted black limba. I am extremely intrigued as to how that will look. So far I've only seen roasted bodies from ash, alder and mahogany.


----------



## bigcupholder

Themistocles said:


> About ready to pull the trigger on another Kiesel (last one was my beloved Carvin 747 21 years ago!). Couple of questions:
> 
> Im thinking a Vader 7 in black limba body and neck... with a swamp ash top (anyone try those woods together? Also should I get a laminate neck with the limba for more stability? I mean I have a 2 piece quartersawn alder necked DC747 and it never goes out of tune and I have a minor phobia of multilaminate necks becoming like dead hippy sandwich bodies... as I like them very lively (like my alder neck) so would a walnut or bloodwood strips dampen that resonance?
> 
> That said who's hungry for a dead hippy sandwich? Made from either real dead hippies or the things that hippies liked to eat? (important question lol)
> 
> Im trying to avoid maple with this build as every other guitar I have has maple on it somewhere and well... I like variety.
> 
> Color will be the very rare version of blue mist metallic technically called transparent orange.


They put carbon fibre rods in the neck. It's going to be stable with any neck wood they offer, regardless of the number of pieces.

I got a multi-piece neck because it was on sale for the same price as a walnut neck, which is what I was originally planning to go with. I actually kind of wish I went with my original plan. I don't consider it a functional upgrade, just a cosmetic one.


----------



## mbardu

Hoss632 said:


> Who did you order from that does roasted black limba. I am extremely intrigued as to how that will look. So far I've only seen roasted bodies from ash, alder and mahogany.



Vandermeij is doing roasted limba bodies.
Here's what it looks like (not my guitar) with roasted limba body and wenge neck:




My guitar, you can kinda see the limba behind the ash, and on request it looks like he was able to find nice matching linear pieces for both limba back and ash front:


----------



## Hoss632

mbardu said:


> Vandermeij is doing roasted limba bodies.
> Here's what it looks like (not my guitar) with roasted limba body and wenge neck:
> 
> View attachment 97310
> 
> 
> My guitar, you can kinda see the limba behind the ash, and on request it looks like he was able to find nice matching linear pieces for both limba back and ash front:
> 
> View attachment 97311


That is beautiful. Almost looks like a walnut body with ash grain texture to it.


----------



## Themistocles

bigcupholder said:


> They put carbon fibre rods in the neck. It's going to be stable with any neck wood they offer, regardless of the number of pieces.
> 
> I got a multi-piece neck because it was on sale for the same price as a walnut neck, which is what I was originally planning to go with. I actually kind of wish I went with my original plan. I don't consider it a functional upgrade, just a cosmetic one.


Correct, my 1 carvin has an alder through body alder neck and it never goes out of tune so Im not worried... the carbon fiber is pretty strong stuff. I do like the look but I also like very resonant necks and I think 2 pieces of quartersawn black limba should be fine.


----------



## mbardu

Themistocles said:


> Correct, my 1 carvin has an alder through body alder neck and it never goes out of tune so Im not worried... the carbon fiber is pretty strong stuff. I do like the look but I also like very resonant necks and I think 2 pieces of quartersawn black limba should be fine.



I don't think they do 2-piece necks anymore.


----------



## Themistocles

mbardu said:


> I don't think they do 2-piece necks anymore.


That would be good to know. I think Limba is pretty stable from what Ive seen on it.... like Mahogany but a bit harder and definitely harder than alder. Maple is much harder than any of those but it does develop weird twists but I think kiesel kiln dries it well. That's important.


----------



## mbardu

Hoss632 said:


> That is beautiful. Almost looks like a walnut body with ash grain texture to it.



Also supposed to be very light and (for what it matters) very resonant acoustically.


----------



## Themistocles

So my second Carvin/Kiesel is ordered... now the wait begins. It is an instrument for fly gig touring next spring so that's gonna be a wait anyways. Flock understood what I was going for and had a helpful understanding of options and what I was going for. 

An orange chaos pumpkin king vader 7....


----------



## spudmunkey

Themistocles said:


> Flock understood what I was going for and had a helpful understanding of options and what I was going for.



One of the reasons to call, and not order on the website. One of the many.


----------



## Themistocles

spudmunkey said:


> One of the reasons to call, and not order on the website. One of the many.


yeah I was once again so please with absolutely no attempt to upsell anything. In fact I had to bring up the mastergrade fretboard and so much help on little things only another guitarist would get in regards to what is an appropriate build for that kind of music. Im a pretty odd prog guitarist and I like things a metal guitarist, jazz or a country player might not appreciate... but I like things that appeal to them too. Flock had an understanding of this esoteric stuff and where I had questions could say where each fork in the road could lead... eventhough I had a pretty clear and researched order coming in. Finally getting the holdsworth 7 string pickups I wanted with my first Carvin build that were not available. If I like em, great... if not Ive got a Holdsworths to use elsewhere (I tend to pick every note unless Im tapping so couldnt be more different from one of my favorite guitarists... though I do like some really odd note choices and I hear some of his influence sometimes).


----------



## Avedas

I've been entertaining the idea of swapping the pickguard on my Delos, but I think there are no drop-in replacements for Kiesel pickguards and they don't sell them separately. Sigh.


----------



## CanserDYI

Avedas said:


> I've been entertaining the idea of swapping the pickguard on my Delos, but I think there are no drop-in replacements for Kiesel pickguards and they don't sell them separately. Sigh.


Ryan Maynes at Forbidden Engravings will make you one for a really decent price. He's making me a quilt aqua back plate right now, only cost me like 65 bucks or something. Chris Hong pointed me his way.


----------



## Avedas

CanserDYI said:


> Ryan Maynes at Forbidden Engravings will make you one for a really decent price. He's making me a quilt aqua back plate right now, only cost me like 65 bucks or something. Chris Hong pointed me his way.


I've heard that name come up before. I'll check them out.


----------



## CanserDYI

Themistocles said:


> yeah I was once again so please with absolutely no attempt to upsell anything. In fact I had to bring up the mastergrade fretboard and so much help on little things only another guitarist would get in regards to what is an appropriate build for that kind of music. Im a pretty odd prog guitarist and I like things a metal guitarist, jazz or a country player might not appreciate... but I like things that appeal to them too. Flock had an understanding of this esoteric stuff and where I had questions could say where each fork in the road could lead... eventhough I had a pretty clear and researched order coming in. Finally getting the holdsworth 7 string pickups I wanted with my first Carvin build that were not available. If I like em, great... if not Ive got a Holdsworths to use elsewhere (I tend to pick every note unless Im tapping so couldnt be more different from one of my favorite guitarists... though I do like some really odd note choices and I hear some of his influence sometimes).


I've said it before on here, probably replying to you now that I think of it, but I swear by Holdsworth pickups now. They are just sublime. At least my experience in the neck, I haven't tried the bridge. But i've never heard such a vocal neck pup, no mud, just liquid creaminess.


----------



## spudmunkey

They do sell pickguards, you just have to call or email them. Blank ones, I believe, start at $70.

Bob's Custom Plates is another one if you want wood plates. 

Forbidden Engravings does wood but also other plastic materials. I used him for a wood truss rod cover (a custom shape) and control cavity cover, and it went well.


----------



## CanserDYI

ThePickguardian will also do custom ones, you just send him a template or a tracing of yours, or, just send him your pickguard. Made a buddies of mine about 5 years ago or so and it held up and looks great.


----------



## spudmunkey

CanserDYI said:


> ThePickguardian will also do custom ones, you just send him a template or a tracing of yours, or, just send him your pickguard. Made a buddies of mine about 5 years ago or so and it held up and looks great.



I used them too. I believe it was $140 for a pickguard and control plate in 5 layer white pearloid, custom duplicated from my existing (not a strat) pickguard I sent in, with different pickup cutouts. The pickup routes were a bit tight and not perfectly straight (the ends were OK but got narrow/pinched) in the middle), but other than that it was good. That pricing was from about 8-ish years ago, and may have gone up since.


----------



## CanserDYI

spudmunkey said:


> I used them too. I believe it was $140 for a pickguard and control plate in 5 layer white pearloid, custom duplicated from my existing (not a strat) pickguard I sent in, with different pickup cutouts. The pickup routes were a bit tight and not perfectly straight (the ends were OK but got narrow/pinched) in the middle), but other than that it was good. That pricing was from about 8-ish years ago, and may have gone up since.


Ouch wow, $140 bucks seems a little steep to me! Maybe I'm out of the game and haven't had anything custom ordered in a while, but even Forbidden Engravings only charged me 65 for my quilted maple color treated backplate. Kiesel's 70 bucks seems pretty steep to me too? I don't think a pickguard should cost any more than 30-40 bucks.


----------



## spudmunkey

Again, for my $140, that included the back plate, they were in a 5-layer material (not the normal 3), pearloid, and all were bespoke custom things he had to replicate...no CNC programs existed, which either meant design time, or active manual labor the whole build time (no setting a CNC and walking away to work on something else).

Ryan has programs for the Delos pickguard, so that automates some of that. My custom-shaped truss rod cover was more expensive than a standard by almost double because if the extra design work.


----------



## Themistocles

CanserDYI said:


> I've said it before on here, probably replying to you now that I think of it, but I swear by Holdsworth pickups now. They are just sublime. At least my experience in the neck, I haven't tried the bridge. But i've never heard such a vocal neck pup, no mud, just liquid creaminess.


Yeah I love that kind of mid boost. Zappa had a whole mid boosting circuit added to some of his guitars and the other humbucking pickups I like best, the Dimarzio Tone Zone 7 and Titan 7 both have that quality to greater and lesser degrees. They werent available for my first Carvin build, a dc747 what 21 22 years ago. I feel so many pickups are covering such similar ground so Id be foolish to not at least try the Holdsworths. Frankly a lot of electric guitar stuff is just upselling fancy feel good stuff for fragile egos but I like artist designed pickups, especially when its so very idiomatic and the artist they are working with has such a voice. Holdsworth has my utmost respect and my build is designed to carry the mid's character through. The human ear's greatest sensitivity is in the mids, which make sense that mid heavy pickups have a vocal quality. In the studio and on stage it can be tricky with so much important stiff in the middle spectrum but there's clever ways to handle it at the mixing board. 

Oh yeah and if the pickups arent "picking up" certain frequencies you cant boost those or cut notches into those frequencies as effectively. Cant change what isnt there in the signal.

I love P90's too... dropping that Elysian into my swamp ash 7 sometime these next few days. I hate soldering.


----------



## Hoss632

Avedas said:


> I've been entertaining the idea of swapping the pickguard on my Delos, but I think there are no drop-in replacements for Kiesel pickguards and they don't sell them separately. Sigh.


Far as I know if you call Kiesel directly you can order a pickguard


----------



## Avedas

spudmunkey said:


> They do sell pickguards, you just have to call or email them. Blank ones, I believe, start at $70.
> 
> Bob's Custom Plates is another one if you want wood plates.
> 
> Forbidden Engravings does wood but also other plastic materials. I used him for a wood truss rod cover (a custom shape) and control cavity cover, and it went well.


I got my truss rod cover from Bob which turned out great, but I think I just want the default plain white pickguard. I thought Kiesel didn't sell them at all, but I'll shoot them an email.


----------



## MrWulf

NGL i was rather close to order a Kiesel but it is absolutely infuriating how some of the specs are not available on certain guitars. 

I want a neck thru Aries or DC700 with 26.5 inch scale length, floyd rose bridge, swamp ash body, maple neck, maple birdeyes fretboard, jumbo SS frets, solid or transparent white and tung oiled neck. 

But the problem is that floyd rose and 26.5 inch scale length is only available for bolt on Aries. 

Might have to settle for a used Prestige and gives it SS frets treatment instead haha


----------



## spudmunkey

The 7-string would be 27" anyway. 26.5" is only for 6-strings (other than the Vader and K series).


Honest question: did you reach out directly and ask, or just going off the website? If the latter, yeah it sucks it's often not accurate/complete, but never order online anyway. Even Kiesel discourages it. Not because they want to try to upset you, but because helping people directly let's them answer questions and suggest things, helping to limit disappointed customers who end up not liking what they got for whatever reason.

Edit: wait...I'm taking crazy pills. They don't offer a Floyd on _any_ 7 string, no matter the scale length.


----------



## MrWulf

They used to offer or at least, i've seen it with endorser guitars ala Fallujah's Scott


----------



## spudmunkey

MrWulf said:


> They used to offer or at least, i've seen it with endorser guitars ala Fallujah's Scott



Yep. That one was likely built pre-July 2018, when the option was retired (or possibly just after it, since when they retire something, that usually means more like "last call" for a couple of months...usually).

His subsequent builds have used the Kiesel/Hipshot trem.


----------



## CanserDYI

Figured y'all wanted a sun pic. Here you go since y'all kept begging me.


----------



## Kyle Jordan

Looking like ExKeiselbur in that pic.


----------



## spudmunkey

"By the power of GreyKiesel...I have the bevel!"


----------



## Themistocles

CanserDYI said:


> Figured y'all wanted a sun pic. Here you go since y'all kept begging me.


wonderful build selection and execution.... often quilts are kinda odd furniture looking but yours is cool... like fish scales or a dragon's tasteful with the hog back, white pickups and the royal ebony FB. The vanquish was such a nice addition... I get so sick of super strats. I considered ordering a hyperdrive but I do some jazz gigs and well... maybe the next build. My first really nice guitar was an Ibanez X series like this http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5338014327&icep_item=284333185351 1 of 500 made. Frankly it wasnt that great a guitar but it turned heads.


----------



## CanserDYI

Themistocles said:


> wonderful build selection and execution.... often quilts are kinda odd furniture looking but yours is cool... like fish scales or a dragon's tasteful with the hog back, white pickups and the royal ebony FB. The vanquish was such a nice addition... I get so sick of super strats. I considered ordering a hyperdrive but I do some jazz gigs and well... maybe the next build. My first really nice guitar was an Ibanez X series like this http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5338014327&icep_item=284333185351 1 of 500 made. Frankly it wasnt that great a guitar but it turned heads.


I see it as an Aussie coast with waves on top, dragon scales is pretty cool too!


----------



## Themistocles

CanserDYI said:


> I see it as an Aussie coast with waves on top, dragon scales is pretty cool too!


yeah it has variation of density and isnt totally symmetrical (something I usually dislike unless it chevron or crotch)... its really a great looking axe. Thats the thing with Kiesel... some build options though they seem cool on paper turn into clown guitars. Not everyone has an eye for that sort of thing so I think thats another reason to call your order in... if something doesnt work they will tell you. Obviously your build is class. The orange in the hog and the ebony fretboard look great with that blue (color wheel stuff).


----------



## spudmunkey

The Delos 7-string is now available in 27" scale.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> The Delos 7-string is now available in 27" scale.


My heart aches for a Floyd on that thing.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Hollowway said:


> My heart aches for a Floyd on that thing.



Yeah, no Floyd no care. Talk about taking yourself out of the market. Such a bummer.


----------



## Mathemagician

CanserDYI said:


> Figured y'all wanted a sun pic. Here you go since y'all kept begging me.



Lick it like a lollipop.


----------



## IwantTacos

Multi scale leia please


----------



## NoodleFace

MrWulf said:


> They used to offer or at least, i've seen it with endorser guitars ala Fallujah's Scott


Yeah my Aries 7 has a OFR, but as far as I know they retired them.

Kind of a weird thing to do... since it stops me from ordering another 7 from them.


----------



## MrWulf

NoodleFace said:


> Yeah my Aries 7 has a OFR, but as far as I know they retired them.
> 
> Kind of a weird thing to do... since it stops me from ordering another 7 from them.



Probably some Hipshot exclusive deal going on. I dont mind Hipshot but like, lol


----------



## CanserDYI

MrWulf said:


> Probably some Hipshot exclusive deal going on. I dont mind Hipshot but like, lol


No Jeff said the demand isn't high enough, he doesn't want to continue stocking them. Pretty sure you can still get an OFR 6 string. Could be wrong.


----------



## Tree

IwantTacos said:


> Multi scale leia please



This. Please please please. The Leia is basically my dream guitar, but I love multiscale headless-s-s-s way too much. I think I've been spoiled. I'll likely end up getting a standard scale Leia anyway if they never bring it to market, but we can dream.


----------



## spudmunkey

A couple more 27" Delos:


----------



## spudmunkey

Not sure if it's an option now or if it was just something special for Brody Utley (Rivers of Nihil), but the one on the right has a matte black 3-layer pickguard, like what they use for the DD4 Dustin Davidson bass model.


----------



## CovertSovietBear

spudmunkey said:


> A couple more 27" Delos:


One on the right looks like an ESP Wade Signature


----------



## Themistocles

Tree said:


> This. Please please please. The Leia is basically my dream guitar, but I love multiscale headless-s-s-s way too much. I think I've been spoiled. I'll likely end up getting a standard scale Leia anyway if they never bring it to market, but we can dream.


Sounds like they wont ever do a multi as the design idea is to be ultra compact. Kinda like whipped cream on a vegan cake.


----------



## Tree

Themistocles said:


> Sounds like they wont ever do a multi as the design idea is to be ultra compact. Kinda like whipped cream on a vegan cake.



Sad news, but that's what the Vaders, and CLs are for I suppose. On top of the countless other builders doing fanned headless models. 

I was just hoping to eventually have my cake and eat it too. As is the SSO policy.


----------



## thrsher

my recent build from Kiesel. discontinued crescent 8 straight scale. i called up and was still able to order one. pretty damn happy on the build and to have an 8 again.












C8



__ thrsher
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C82



__ thrsher
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## CanserDYI

thrsher said:


> my recent build from Kiesel. discounted crescent 8 straight scale. i called up and was still able to order one. pretty damn happy on the build and to have an 8 again.
> 
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Ahhh Natural Back, a man of class I see.


----------



## binz

spudmunkey said:


> A couple more 27" Delos:



That beige/yellow one looks mad! 7-string Strats look so tasty, especially the Kiesel Delos ones. Overall my favorite Strats on the market, just yumm.


----------



## spudmunkey

thrsher said:


> my recent build from Kiesel. discontinued crescent 8 straight scale. i called up and was still able to order one. pretty damn happy on the build and to have an 8 again.
> 
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> __ Sep 16, 2021
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Is that a 1-piece walnut body? Love the swooping grain on it. That's a beauty!


----------



## mbardu

thrsher said:


> my recent build from Kiesel. discontinued crescent 8 straight scale. i called up and was still able to order one. pretty damn happy on the build and to have an 8 again.
> 
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*T H I C C*


----------



## Themistocles

CanserDYI said:


> Ahhh Natural Back, a man of class I see.


agreed, so nice... when I ordered my first carvin I wanted a green flame maple top and natural Koa back and they couldnt do it so its all green... 22 years later and its such a popular option for a reason. The transparent green koa looks really cool but I dont think it improved it in any way. It is interesting how the company has evolved by caving into our pta demands. With Mark the engineering prowess really stepped up and with Jeff the focus on aesthetics and options improved significantly. I mean there are always gonna be haters but the question for any company is how connected are they to their clientel? Kiesel seems to learn with time... Gibson is the alternate example of not listening and just forging ahead with some sort of corporate market dominance agenda that didnt turn out so well.


----------



## thrsher

spudmunkey said:


> Is that a 1-piece walnut body? Love the swooping grain on it. That's a beauty!



I'm so stoked on the walnut used on the body and neck


----------



## c7spheres

thrsher said:


> I'm so stoked on the walnut used on the body and neck


 WOw that's awesome! I haven't checked them out in a long time. It looks like they've really upped their game with this one. I wonder if they still don't offer Floyds or not. Weird they stopped that.


----------



## spudmunkey

c7spheres said:


> WOw that's awesome! I haven't checked them out in a long time. It looks like they've really upped their game with this one. I wonder if they still don't offer Floyds or not. Weird they stopped that.



They still offer Floyds on quite a few models (not all, and only long as you want 6-strings). For 7 string, they have the Hipshot trem, but no Floyds.


----------



## Themistocles

thrsher said:


> I'm so stoked on the walnut used on the body and neck


yeah makes me so glad I went for a 1 piece neck on my vader 7 (black limba on mine) there's something about uninterrupted grain that I like and both wlnut and black limba are very stable woods that with the addition of carbon fiber rods should keep things very straight. Maple is actually the wood you gotta worry about for necks as it can have a lot of memory. That said cure/dry it and use carbon fiber like kiesel and its gonna be fi. My carvin has a 2 piece alder neck with some minor knots and wavy grain that I asked for and Ive never had to touch the truss rod in 21 years. 

simply a lovely walnut neck


----------



## spudmunkey

Al Joseph Artist Edition SCB7 "Stealth", a limited run, available starting October 1st, $2700 (with Kiesel's Ultimate Soft case)
https://kieselcustomguitars.myshopify.com/products/al-joseph-scb7x?variant=39563467161644

Based on the SCB7, with a more aggressive bevel in the forearm area (but not exactly like the Aries as it stops before the upper bout), and a re-designed rear belly contour that continues around the back of the body, unlike the SCB7

Comes standard with:
Mahogany chambered body
Pearl Blue paint, with clear satin finish
Roasted flamed maple fretboard
Flamed maple top, with a "baked" color-treatment on the bevel/edge to coordinate with the roasted fretboard
3-piece Maple Neck
Thin neck profile
Neck and headstock painted to match the body
4+3 pointed headstock
Hipshot Trem
Brushed Gold-covered Lithium pickups with gold pole pieces
Gold hardware
Gold EVO Jumbo frets
Abalone Block inlays
Dunlop strap locks
Graphtech Ivory color Tusq nut
Gold logo
Controls: Volume, Tone, 3-way pickup toggle, with a mini switch for coil splitting on the upper bout
Truss rod cover delete
(I think) Trem cavity cover delete

Al gets a couple of the details a little inaccurately in his video (the tuners aren't hipshot, on his Instagram he says it's a roasted mahogany body and neck but that could have been just a copy/paste error).



His newest video where he's using this guitar:


----------



## spudmunkey

The Delos 6-string now also has an "extended scale" option: 26.5".


----------



## Hollowway

That’s pretty cool, but I would NOT have the balls to paint over a flamed maple top. I’d live the rest of my life looking over my shoulder, waiting for my mom to smack me in the head for being an idiot.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> That’s pretty cool, but I would NOT have the balls to paint over a flamed maple top. I’d live the rest of my life looking over my shoulder, waiting for my mom to smack me in the head for being an idiot.



When their SH550/575 first launched, it was standard with a flamed top. A customer wanted the guitar painted all gloss black, and they wouldn't give any sort of discount for a plain wood top, so it's a flamed top completely (even the edges) hidden under black paint. Although I imagine as thr finish settles, you can probably see the flamed pattern telegraphic through it. Ha!

The first time I ever saw it done like this from Carvin was back in '08, when someone wanted the Goldtop metallic finish, and flamed maple "binding" effect, so it's a flamed maple top, but it's not beveled so you see even less of it! It's a cool look, but, man... I couldn't do it.


----------



## Hollowway

@spudmunkey yeah, it’s definitely a cool look. I’m not sure if I’d like it more than an actual flamed top. But it is different, and that’s cool. But I’m the same way - if I go for a figured top, I’m not covering it up!


----------



## mbardu

Simple solution: we need figured binding veneers!

On topic- that SCB is pretty dope.
Not the biggest fan of overbeveling stuff usually - but here it works IMHO.


----------



## xzacx

mbardu said:


> Simple solution: we need figured binding veneers!
> 
> On topic- that SCB is pretty dope.
> Not the biggest fan of overbeveling stuff usually - but here it works IMHO.



i think the contrast with the opaque finish really makes it work here. Everything kinda gets lost with the typical trans finishes and they can look too busy real quick, but this looks so much better.


----------



## CanserDYI

I reaaaaaaally love this Al Joseph model, that bevel is gnarkill.


----------



## Mourguitars

Im finally getting around to playing a Carvin Bolt a friend that passed left me....he had it Custom made from them in 2005 ish....

Mahogany body/Maple top...i do remember he had issues with the Rubber neck of a stock Carvin profile with being all Mahogany sent it back 2 times for being replaced ..... then he spec out my Jackson soloist neck and had some maple strips put in...it feels great...Ebony board / S.S frets...its a heavy Strat

Dont know much about the bridge pickup C22 i think...whats it spec out like in a Duncan, sounds like a SH-5 to me ?...Ummm is the up position in the split coil the single coil ? For some reason i cant tell or hear the difference ...lol

All in all its a very sweet guitar....he was a very fussy guy about things being right on it ...to his liking but the neck feels like my Soloist ...that feels like home to me

He was having a California carve top built when he started getting real sick , custom to his spec...they messed up on the color, and i will give Kiesel a lot of credit they refunded his payment in full....no questions asked , so props to them for that !

Mike


----------



## Themistocles

CanserDYI said:


> I reaaaaaaally love this Al Joseph model, that bevel is gnarkill.


It has this very yin/yang curve to it that really works in an elegant yet showy way... like the fenders of a duesenberg https://www.stlouiscarmuseum.com/vehicles/766/1935-duesenberg-ii-model-sj-torpedo-phaeton


----------



## spudmunkey

Mourguitars said:


> Im finally getting around to playing a Carvin Bolt a friend that passed left me....he had it Custom made from them in 2005 ish....
> 
> Mahogany body/Maple top...i do remember he had issues with the Rubber neck of a stock Carvin profile with being all Mahogany sent it back 2 times for being replaced ..... then he spec out my Jackson soloist neck and had some maple strips put in...it feels great...Ebony board / S.S frets...its a heavy Strat
> 
> Dont know much about the bridge pickup C22 i think...whats it spec out like in a Duncan, sounds like a SH-5 to me ?...Ummm is the up position in the split coil the single coil ? For some reason i cant tell or hear the difference ...lol
> 
> All in all its a very sweet guitar....he was a very fussy guy about things being right on it ...to his liking but the neck feels like my Soloist ...that feels like home to me
> 
> He was having a California carve top built when he started getting real sick , custom to his spec...they messed up on the color, and i will give Kiesel a lot of credit they refunded his payment in full....no questions asked , so props to them for that !
> 
> Mike
> 
> View attachment 98013
> 
> 
> View attachment 98014
> 
> 
> View attachment 98015
> 
> 
> View attachment 98016



It's hard to say about the mini switch, as it very well could have rotated over time, or may have been been re-tightened off-axis if it loosened. If you have a screwdriver handy, you can tap on the pole pieces and see which coils are active in each position.

The nice thing about that Bolt model (and not their current Delos model), is that the bodies, necks, and pickguard are all drop-in replacements for American Stratocasters, and vise-versa (meaning you could put this neck on a Strat, and you could use a pre-wired Strat pickguard on this Bolt). There's one pickguard hole that doesn't line up, but you could switch back and forth, and each pickguard would cover the other's unused hole.

The bridge pickup is a C22, but no way to tell if it's the C22B or C22T without looking at the back of the pickup. The single coils are their AP11.


----------



## Mourguitars

spudmunkey said:


> It's hard to say about the mini switch, as it very well could have rotated over time, or may have been been re-tightened off-axis if it loosened. If you have a screwdriver handy, you can tap on the pole pieces and see which coils are active in each position.
> 
> The nice thing about that Bolt model (and not their current Delos model), is that the bodies, necks, and pickguard are all drop-in replacements for American Stratocasters, and vise-versa (meaning you could put this neck on a Strat, and you could use a pre-wired Strat pickguard on this Bolt). There's one pickguard hole that doesn't line up, but you could switch back and forth, and each pickguard would cover the other's unused hole.
> 
> The bridge pickup is a C22, but no way to tell if it's the C22B or C22T without looking at the back of the pickup. The single coils are their AP11.





Oh thank you for the reply...gheez, i feel kinda stupid i should have know that about tapping the pickup...lol

Too much studying on building a modded 800 and learning to use my scope in my free time....again i should have know that ..Duh ! Lol

Good to know about body and neck and pick guard ....he made this below to send out if i wanted to change the Pickguard....

I have to say with what pickups are in there its very well balanced in all 5 positions , so im just going to leave it as is. It sounds good.... There has only been 2 guitars ive never wanted to change pickups in ...This Bolt and a PRS i had

Mike

https://imgur.com/vcB50i3


----------



## Mourguitars

Getting a lot of Errors on the forum this morning for some reason...


----------



## RadoncROCKs

Does Kiesel still do any replacement necks for their own guitars? I know Jeff has answered this in past live streams and IIRC they don't, but just checking.


----------



## spudmunkey

RadoncROCKs said:


> Does Kiesel still do any replacement necks for their own guitars? I know Jeff has answered this in past live streams and IIRC they don't, but just checking.



Only basically as warranty replacements, because they want to do the final fitting.


----------



## spudmunkey

NEW KIESEL VIRTUAL BUILDER COMING MONDAY!

THIS IS NOT A DRILL! (unless there's a hiccup with the launch, ha!)

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CUgUgUtljxC/?utm_medium=copy_link


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> NEW KIESEL VIRTUAL BUILDER COMING MONDAY!
> 
> THIS IS NOT A DRILL! (unless there's a hiccup with the launch, ha!)
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/tv/CUgUgUtljxC/?utm_medium=copy_link


I can’t get on the website, so maybe they’re updating it now?


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

Shit. This just means I’ll probably buy a Kiesel, touché Jeff Wiesel, touché.


----------



## Hollowway

Site’s back up. The builder won’t be up yet, during migration. But, I DO like the new site (at least on mobile). Maybe this will get some more cash out of my wallet, lol.

edit: I spoke too soon. There are some scaling issues. Unless they’re to be considered web-bevels?


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

Hollowway said:


> Site’s back up. The builder won’t be up yet, during migration. But, I DO like the new site (at least on mobile). Maybe this will get some more cash out of my wallet, lol.
> 
> edit: I spoke too soon. There are some scaling issues. Unless they’re to be considered web-bevels?


You know it’s bevels. With a watermelon burst.


----------



## SpaceDock

Builder is up now but looks like it has some problems


----------



## KnightBrolaire

builder is alright. I do like how it shows the back side.


----------



## CanserDYI

Is there a link to the builder? The site still looks and operates the exact same on my end.


----------



## Themistocles

CanserDYI said:


> Is there a link to the builder? The site still looks and operates the exact same on my end.


same here


----------



## spudmunkey

On my phone, it's still pulling up the old version. I can get the new one to load on my PC.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Yep same here, works on PC.


----------



## spudmunkey

Whelp, between my post 15 minutes ago and now, it started working. Still a bit buggy, but technically working.


----------



## CanserDYI

I'm on both mobile and PC and still getting website circa 1998


----------



## Themistocles

post a link to the builder url (just the builder not the main page) and we wont have to wait for the site to populate through the name servers


----------



## spudmunkey

https://www.kieselguitars.com/builder/guitar


----------



## CanserDYI

Getting this message from that link Spud


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

CanserDYI said:


> Getting this message from that link Spud


It’s working for me.


----------



## CanserDYI

If you get quilt maple, only allows RE or QM headstock overlay, automatically applies it, and doesnt allow you to remove it. Weird.


----------



## binz

Somebody how to choose headstock matching the neck/fretboard or am I just blind?
Also, what about sparkle finishes? Is it missing or I just cannot find it?


----------



## Seabeast2000

Also, GIS is empty, maybe they are going to populate that from scratch or something with all new inventory vs. porting over from existing.


----------



## Hollowway

Seabeast2000 said:


> Also, GIS is empty, maybe they are going to populate that from scratch or something with all new inventory vs. porting over from existing.


My guess is they just haven’t ported it over. They gotta sell those somehow. I’m curious how they’ll format that, though. Hopefully they get rid of the “regular price is $1799, GIS shows $1999 with a $200 savings” BS they claimed was due to the way the old website was constructed (in that it needed to show a discount, so they inflated the price to compensate).


----------



## spudmunkey

Yeah, it was sorta that every model was on "sale" $100 off...and has been for years, and then there was also the $100 in free options, so they had to raise the "was" price to reflect that. The only real way they could have done it, and IMO should have been the way to do it, was to simply not have a "was" price, unless they were having a specific "save x-amount of dollars off any in-stock this Flag Day weekend-" promo or were making down a used artist loaner by some amount...

I sent in a list of quirks and errors, and they said they already had a list of 60 issues they were hoping to have tied up by Monday, and most of mine were on their list already. 

One I noticed: if you select a natural fretboard-matching headstock overlay with a a crackle painted body, the visualizer will leave the headstock without the body color, but will still do the black or white crackle over it.

That and all of the 25" scale models were incorrectly listed as 25.5", it was putting block inlays and double diamonds on the 24th fret (neither of which appear on a "real" guitar), seemingly some copy/paste issues.


----------



## Themistocles

Couldnt get vader 7 string with trem options but fun... Glad I didnt go with a burst and ordered a transparent orange over antique ash top. Useful tool and Im glad it doesnt cover everything (also couldnt get pickup covers and some wood upgrades I had to call the guys to order).


----------



## aWoodenShip

I'm in trouble.


----------



## Avedas

The builder looks great. Worked well enough when I was playing around with it. I haven't tried everything yet, but it doesn't need to be comprehensive.

I have no idea why people were saying this was so impossible to accomplish.


----------



## spudmunkey

Themistocles said:


> Glad I didnt go with a burst and ordered a transparent orange over antique ash top.



Ooh, don't see many trans orange builds. With AAT, that's gonna look awesome.


----------



## Themistocles

spudmunkey said:


> Ooh, don't see many trans orange builds. With AAT, that's gonna look awesome.


yeah raw tone too... black limba body clear back as well. Its gonna be a long wait but at least this builder removes some second guessing... the orange bursts just dont quite do it for me with ash topped vaders and thats good to know.


----------



## IwantTacos

Avedas said:


> The builder looks great. Worked well enough when I was playing around with it. I haven't tried everything yet, but it doesn't need to be comprehensive.
> 
> I have no idea why people were saying this was so impossible to accomplish.



no one was saying it was impossible except Jeff.


----------



## CanserDYI

I don't think Jeff even wants a builder. He's probably stewing because it cost a ton of money, gonna cause a ton of stirs when things show up darker or lighter than the customer wanted, probably will lead to many more emails asking to change options, etc. This did nothing for Jeff but cost money, in my opinion. I'm thankful for it, but I get the reasons why it didn't exist.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

CanserDYI said:


> I don't think Jeff even wants a builder. He's probably stewing because it cost a ton of money, gonna cause a ton of stirs when things show up darker or lighter than the customer wanted, probably will lead to many more emails asking to change options, etc. This did nothing for Jeff but cost money, in my opinion. I'm thankful for it, but I get the reasons why it didn't exist.


oh yeah it cost "so much money" that's why halo and other visual builders have been around for the better part of a decade. Give me a break, jeff was just trying to be a cheap fuck and use a 90s geocities website


----------



## MaxOfMetal

IwantTacos said:


> no one was saying it was impossible except Jeff.



And true to form, what he meant by "impossible" is "it's coming soon".


----------



## CanserDYI

KnightBrolaire said:


> oh yeah it cost "so much money" that's why halo and other visual builders have been around for the better part of a decade. Give me a break, jeff was just trying to be a cheap fuck and use a 90s geocities website


Well then throw away the money portion, still understand why he wouldn't want one. He was getting thousands of orders and popularity skyrocketing despite not having a builder. I'm not standing up for Jeff at all, I think hes pretty douchey but I get why the builder took so long.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

CanserDYI said:


> Well then throw away the money portion, still understand why he wouldn't want one. He was getting thousands of orders and popularity skyrocketing despite not having a builder. I'm not standing up for Jeff at all, I think hes pretty douchey but I get why the builder took so long.


If anything the builder will have people less apprehensive about certain spec combos, wasting less time yakking to employees over the phone, and they prevent transcription errors. What you pick is what you get. Plus it's more likely to push newer buyers into making impulsive buys.


----------



## CanserDYI

KnightBrolaire said:


> If anything the builder will have people less apprehensive about certain spec combos, wasting less time yakking to employees over the phone, and they prevent transcription errors. What you pick is what you get. Plus it's more likely to push newer buyers into making impulsive buys.


True and valid points. I just see it falling both sides of that edge. I can see it super helping on some fronts and super hindering on a lot. Either way, I don't work at kiesel nor will I ever have a stake in their business so my "give a shit-ometer" isn't even budging.


----------



## IwantTacos

CanserDYI said:


> True and valid points. I just see it falling both sides of that edge. I can see it super helping on some fronts and super hindering on a lot. Either way, I don't work at kiesel nor will I ever have a stake in their business so my "give a shit-ometer" isn't even budging.



There's no edge. Kiesel's whole build philosophy right now is to get guitars out as efficiently and as repeatedly as possible. 

A builder helps this. You just put a disclaimer on the builder that sees you know what if you choose the options here, then what you see is 90 percent of what you are going to get barring wood variations. 

then just build it.


----------



## CanserDYI

IwantTacos said:


> There's no edge. Kiesel's whole build philosophy right now is to get guitars out as efficiently and as repeatedly as possible.
> 
> A builder helps this. You just put a disclaimer on the builder that sees you know what if you choose the options here, then what you see is 90 percent of what you are going to get barring wood variations.
> 
> then just build it.


All I'm saying is I understand Jeff's apprehension to making the builder, as he's already as busy as they can handle and have EVER handled, for decades and decades, all without a builder. All a builder will do for Jeff Kiesel at this moment is probably gum up the works, get influx of orders that they're already understaffed for, and get a ton of people bothering them about builder issues and pricings and blah blah blah, a bunch of people not realizing every piece of wood is different, lighting's change in different rooms and blah blah blah.

The builder is cool as hell for a consumer perspective, for an established builder who is already backed up and has a return policy for customs? Not so much.


----------



## Themistocles

The company has a couple of simple goals to meet as the industry leader in this sort of custom guitar company. Second guessing this stuff is pretty close to reading tea leaves but you can look at it from a business standpoint. Its true he's a craft guy not an internet mogul who is trying to build the killer internet app for guitar freaks.

1) it helps customers sort out the most common options and visualize them... that takes some workload off "the guys" by giving them more educated customers. Let's remember a big part of Kiesel/Carvin's long running model is to educate customers on the value of what the options they provide represent. So its an education tool that is a sales device.

2) It may bring in more orders, specifically more higher value orders (one of Jeff's stated goals) by providing visuals for builds for 1st time and repeat customers that are on the fence who are not professional designers... I'm a design professional (not guitars and I write a lot about it too) so I can see a bunch of builds and in my head visualize this stuff but for most people they need that visual feedback. Its been stated that the average custom build is around $2500 and their capacity is really around 4000... that's a ceiling. If the builder can bring that up to say 2700 that's well worth it.... maybe it can do that but I think what it will do is bring in first time customers who have been on the fence. Long term that's a way for them to hold and build their market position as a custom guitar company. I do like that you can do very basic builds that are amazing... A budget alder body and maple neck build 7 or 8 string with an ebony board is hard for any other company to match in terms of value and the company's commitment to value and extra fancy builds too is special in that its extremes in terms of price/value points. People can complain about Jeff but I see him as the new generation expanding some of the special family business traditions that got me to by my first Carvin 21 years ago.

3) the did the right thing emphasisng the maple tops and paint options... there is more ready and consistent supply of those things. Its not like Warmoth where you can pick out available tops and cuts of wood online... that would have been amazing but would have required more. This option can be scaled up as things happen... they could do custom laser etching and pickguard material treatments but that doesnt seem like Jeff's thing. If they weretrying to make more than 4000 guitars I could see that... I suspect Ibanez or some other large manufacturer will add that as an online custom website option.

4) The "impossible" quote I simply take as being realistic about offering every option they do in the builder... because they are always trying new things. He's a luthier...and likes to tinker about... he's the builder and doesnt just want to be hemmed in by an online tool. I cant fault that at all. So overall its a good general visualization tool in an era when people expect that sort of interface. For me it let me try to recreate the build I ordered a month + ago and stop second guessing certain options I didnt go for. Im thankful for that as the builder tried out those options and it looked like it did in my head... good thing I didnt order that burst. The AAT top in their builder sets a decent low expectation but Im hoping my top is way better than that... besides the mastergrade fretboard I ordered isnt on the builder at all. That's fine.


----------



## Hollowway

I get what you guys are saying about this making business sense for Kiesel to have a builder. But I agree with @CanserDYI - if it makes sense, and it's not expensive, what the hell took so long? It's not like there aren't a few of these out there (Halo, Balaguer, etc). I agree with CanserDYI in that Jeff probably didn't have it as a priority, and figured he was doing fine not spending whatever money it cost. There must be a reason he wasn't doing it.


----------



## Themistocles

Hollowway said:


> I get what you guys are saying about this making business sense for Kiesel to have a builder. But I agree with @CanserDYI - if it makes sense, and it's not expensive, what the hell took so long? It's not like there aren't a few of these out there (Halo, Balaguer, etc). I agree with CanserDYI in that Jeff probably didn't have it as a priority, and figured he was doing fine not spending whatever money it cost. There must be a reason he wasn't doing it.


As someone who has developed a lot of systems and interfaces... developing and maintaining it takes him away from the job he loves... building guitars. Its probably just that simple.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Short story: Super long-time semi-custom online builder, creates online visual builder in 2021. I don't know why there is any speculation or concern.


----------



## Themistocles

Seabeast2000 said:


> Short story: Super long-time semi-custom online builder, creates online visual builder in 2021. I don't know why there is any speculation or concern.


and I think its good that it isnt completely exhaustive... its better for them to spend that energy on the guitars. It just appeases some market expectations and does some extra education. They rely on educated customers. The fact that it has bugs is fine... they can get sorted out.

That said the fact that there is speculation and concern means that people care... there is a sense that their success will bring some deep pocketed competitors or offers to scale up/monetize in a way that could destroy what is good about them. Im glasd that they still exist.


----------



## Hollowway

Themistocles said:


> As someone who has developed a lot of systems and interfaces... developing and maintaining it takes him away from the job he loves... building guitars. Its probably just that simple.


I doubt he’s doing anything related to the site, other than signing a check, though.


----------



## IwantTacos

Ya I doubt Jeff is programming this thing.


----------



## Themistocles

Hollowway said:


> I doubt he’s doing anything related to the site, other than signing a check, though.


small family run company... he's had to take some time to set parameters and approve directions etc. I deal with artists/craftspersons all the time... no way they just sign a check. Im certain though it was done to minimize the amount of time lost to his core functions... like procuring good wood etc. This really isnt about Jeff though... its something the customers kind of expected and someone took the initiative to make it as painless as possible. Good is better than perfect in this sort of thing because perfect would take too much time and resources.


----------



## Hollowway

Themistocles said:


> small family run company... he's had to take some time to set parameters and approve directions etc. I deal with artists/craftspersons all the time... no way they just sign a check. Im certain though it was done to minimize the amount of time lost to his core functions... like procuring good wood etc. This really isnt about Jeff though... its something the customers kind of expected and someone took the initiative to make it as painless as possible. Good is better than perfect in this sort of thing because perfect would take too much time and resources.


 in your first post you said it was as simple as it taking Jeff away from building guitars, and then in your second post you said it wasn’t really about Jeff.


----------



## spudmunkey

The builder is definitely a case of "Don't Let the Perfect Be the Enemy of the Good". It's not perfect, but could it ever be?  It's definitely a net "good" even with its current quirks, and I've seen some things definitely corrected/updated since even yesterday, so they're clearly actively working on fixing some things over the weekend. And likely will for at least a couple of weeks, playing whack-a-mole.


----------



## laxu

Nice to see they finally have a good builder. It will definitely get better over time but I think it's a very good start, easy enough to use and seems to be fairly good representation of what you will get.

When I ordered my Kiesel Aries AM7 in 2015 I used Photoshop and Kiesel's photo gallery content to come up with how I wanted mine to look. I tried replicating the specs on the new builder and then tried playing with the options. I think the only thing I would change is pick a roasted flamed maple fretboard, which of course wasn't an option at the time. Maybe might try a solid color plain maple top.

This is how my Photoshop looked vs what I got: https://imgur.com/fCxih5g

Also going through the different models with the same specs, I still don't like most of Kiesel's body shapes. The Aries and Vader are by far the best, with the more standard super-Strat shapes in tow.


----------



## Themistocles

Hollowway said:


> in your first post you said it was as simple as it taking Jeff away from building guitars, and then in your second post you said it wasn’t really about Jeff.


correct and with context of each post it makes sense. Its about building guitars, Jeff doesnt personally build them all but he does have core functions keeping the entire shop working. Its not his persona at all... but the functions he performs and hes reinvigorated and kept the company alive, doing guitar geek things rather than internet interfaces. Somebody probably took some initiative and if it worked it got a green light. I dont think it was him making it a top priority... it was ... if you can come up with something that doesnt keep me from my workload, then OK. Seems like they have been streamlining things. People tend to make that about persona and personalities but really its just when start align. Carvin/Kiesel has been doing this a long time, long before the internet. The other companies with builders baked it into their business plan. So no its not about Jeff and it is about building guitars. Weve seen this many times with the company... they do things a certain way because they have done things a certain way... then all of a sudden (or a decade of requests) something dramatic happens. In this case it isnt that dramatic, its just helpful and a kind of thank you to the customers. Hopefully it wont cause all sorts of delays to actual builds. Had they added more intense features like, picking your tops etc I could see it really driving higher dollar sales but clearly they arent prepared systematically for that. Basically they are trying to manage their success and its a good move. Making it some sort of pro/con Jeff thing is just people wanting to put a face to things but every shop has its culture.

Now for the Cult of Jeff... Ill be worried if they do a "JK" edition with little tuning knobs shaped like Jeff's head ...that and a special "impossible" finish. lolz


----------



## Hollowway

I apologize to anyone who disagreed with me that Jeff builds gaudy guitars, and said that it was the customers that have no taste. I come to you from facebook. Good lord, we cannot be saved. There are some unbelievably tasteless builds people are posting with, quite literally, an unironic "#tasteful" tag. Holy hell, you were right - there are some Kiesel customers that are like 8 year old girls that get into their mom's makeup kit.


----------



## Avedas

Hollowway said:


> I apologize to anyone who disagreed with me that Jeff builds gaudy guitars, and said that it was the customers that have no taste. I come to you from facebook. Good lord, we cannot be saved. There are some unbelievably tasteless builds people are posting with, quite literally, an unironic "#tasteful" tag. Holy hell, you were right - there are some Kiesel customers that are like 8 year old girls that get into their mom's makeup kit.


Most of the builds on the FB group are a real nightmare lmao


----------



## lurè

I was hoping for the addition of new "call my guys" specs on the new builder, but so far I'm liking it.

Did they remove the raw tone finish? I can't find it.


----------



## laxu

lurè said:


> Did they remove the raw tone finish? I can't find it.



Probably not in the builder yet or it's just shown as some finish option elsewhere and they don't make a visual distinction between it and say a matte finish.


----------



## spudmunkey

lurè said:


> I was hoping for the addition of new "call my guys" specs on the new builder, but so far I'm liking it.
> 
> Did they remove the raw tone finish? I can't find it.



In the Body section, it's in "top coat"


----------



## CanserDYI

Hollowway said:


> I apologize to anyone who disagreed with me that Jeff builds gaudy guitars, and said that it was the customers that have no taste. I come to you from facebook. Good lord, we cannot be saved. There are some unbelievably tasteless builds people are posting with, quite literally, an unironic "#tasteful" tag. Holy hell, you were right - there are some Kiesel customers that are like 8 year old girls that get into their mom's makeup kit.


I'd agree, while I have learned to enjoy the vibrant neon colors one, something about the 80s and 90s just snapped in me lately and I just love the vivid color clash combos. 

But gold blinged, candy painted abalone splashed ones can all disappear...I'll be okay with that...


----------



## laxu

I issue you a challenge: Use the new builder to make:

1. The most beautiful looking guitar.
2. The worst looking guitar you can think of. 

Post pics!


----------



## laxu

1. This is probably what I would order if I didn't already have my swimming pool AM7. I like the Aries in all its bevely goodness. I would go for a different headstock though because that one looks good but is terrible for ringing and needs a fretwrap on it.







2. This is the worst I could figure out. I picked the body shape and finish I liked the least and tried to make it look as gaudy (and I like my guitars to be gaudy!) as possible.


----------



## aWoodenShip

lurè said:


> I was hoping for the addition of new "call my guys" specs on the new builder, but so far I'm liking it.
> 
> Did they remove the raw tone finish? I can't find it.


It's in there, but it seems like it's only available in very limited circumstances. I've only got it to come up once or twice.


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

Hoping they allow the online builder to do a solid color top on the Zeus with a natural back/bevel WITHOUT springing for a full blown top. I'm thinking a walnut body with a flat black top sounds mighty fine. Thinking it would end up something along this aesthetic line, or not too far off at least:


----------



## spudmunkey

Jeffrey Bain said:


> Hoping they allow the online builder to do a solid color top on the Zeus with a natural back/bevel WITHOUT springing for a full blown top. I'm thinking a walnut body with a flat black top sounds mighty fine. Thinking it would end up something along this aesthetic line, or not too far off at least:


That does sound sexy. That Ibanez example, though, isn't how it would look from Kiesel. When they are able to do a top-only finish (with RNC/Rear Natural Clear) without a top, they have to use the body's actual edges as the transition lines.

Al Joseph has at least one SCB (similar shape to the Zeus) without a top and a solid-colored paint:


On a Zeus, it would look like this:






Not like this: 





Here's a couple example of how it would look on other models, even though a couple of them technically actually even have tops...they just also added the bevel binding option):


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

spudmunkey said:


> That does sound sexy. That Ibanez example, though, isn't how it would look from Kiesel. When they are able to do a top-only finish (with RNC/Rear Natural Clear) without a top, they have to use the body's actual edges as the transition lines.
> 
> Al Joseph has at least one SCB (similar shape to the Zeus) without a top and a solid-colored paint:
> 
> 
> On a Zeus, it would look like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not like this:
> View attachment 98438
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a couple example of how it would look on other models, even though a couple of them technically actually even have tops...they just also added the bevel binding option):




Figured you would know LOL! Thanks Spud!


----------



## spudmunkey

aWoodenShip said:


> It's in there, but it seems like it's only available in very limited circumstances. I've only got it to come up once or twice.



It looks like the builder doesn't allow for it on models that are standard with figured maple tops, for example, and won't let you select it with metallic finishes. I know they've built many examples with metallic finishes, but I suspect they aren't doing it on the builder because they might want to talk to a customer to explain how the satin finish knocks-down the visibility of the metallic-ness to a potential buyer.

[edit: I actually looked again, and the Raw Tone option is shown on the metallic finishes menu, but it won't allow you to select it...then I switched to a solid finish, but then the Raw Tone wasn't even shown as an option at all.]


----------



## Mathemagician

laxu said:


> 1. This is probably what I would order if I didn't already have my swimming pool AM7. I like the Aries in all its bevely goodness. I would go for a different headstock though because that one looks good but is terrible for ringing and needs a fretwrap on it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2. This is the worst I could figure out. I picked the body shape and finish I liked the least and tried to make it look as gaudy (and I like my guitars to be gaudy!) as possible.



Your top one has been in my head for essentially 2 years now from a few different builders.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> I apologize to anyone who disagreed with me that Jeff builds gaudy guitars, and said that it was the customers that have no taste. I come to you from facebook. Good lord, we cannot be saved. There are some unbelievably tasteless builds people are posting with, quite literally, an unironic "#tasteful" tag. Holy hell, you were right - there are some Kiesel customers that are like 8 year old girls that get into their mom's makeup kit.



In his defence, the one I saw was clearly trolling (that's a regular poster in that group), if it's the one I saw.  But...if it wasn't that specific one...yeah. I often agree, ha!


----------



## KnightBrolaire

laxu said:


> I issue you a challenge: Use the new builder to make:
> 
> 1. The most beautiful looking guitar.
> 2. The worst looking guitar you can think of.
> 
> Post pics!


1. If they had the option for ebony tops I'd recreate my old vm8, but this will do.


2. the piss yellow top really does it for me


----------



## Hollowway

KnightBrolaire said:


> 1. If they had the option for ebony tops I'd recreate my old vm8, but this will do.
> View attachment 98439
> 
> 2. the piss yellow top really does it for me
> View attachment 98440


What is that top color on the VM8?!


----------



## michael_bolton

lurè said:


> I was hoping for the addition of new "call my guys" specs on the new builder....



that would be rad


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> What is that top color on the VM8?!



If you mean on the C8 pictured, it looks like the Raspberry Jam on quilted maple to me.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Hollowway said:


> What is that top color on the VM8?!


the crescent is trans pink stain with trans black burst edges on quilted maple.


spudmunkey said:


> If you mean on the C8 pictured, it looks like the Raspberry Jam on quilted maple to me.


raspberry jam is darker and more purplish than the pink i used.


----------



## Themistocles

lurè said:


> I was hoping for the addition of new "call my guys" specs on the new builder, but so far I'm liking it.
> 
> Did they remove the raw tone finish? I can't find it.


Ive only been able to get raw tone to show up when I do an ash body... not ash top (this is for vaders)


----------



## KnightBrolaire

nvm


----------



## Hollowway

KnightBrolaire said:


> the crescent is trans pink stain with trans black burst edges on quilted maple.
> 
> raspberry jam is darker and more purplish than the pink i used.


Huh. I wonder how accurate that photo is. I’ve always been under the impression that you don’t get the depth unless they do the deep triple stain process. Are they doing that with trans pink now? Or is that just a trans pink stain without the triple step?


----------



## cip 123

Theres a little bug if you start with a JB24 then change the model -


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Hollowway said:


> Huh. I wonder how accurate that photo is. I’ve always been under the impression that you don’t get the depth unless they do the deep triple stain process. Are they doing that with trans pink now? Or is that just a trans pink stain without the triple step?


From my own experimentation the best results come from using a slightly darker complementary color first, sanding it back and then applying the pink. It gives way more contrast then.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> Huh. I wonder how accurate that photo is. I’ve always been under the impression that you don’t get the depth unless they do the deep triple stain process. Are they doing that with trans pink now? Or is that just a trans pink stain without the triple step?



If you get a flamed or quilted maple top, the "deep" is their standard process.


----------



## spudmunkey

cip 123 said:


> Theres a little bug if you start with a JB24 then change the model -



Oh, that's hilarious.


This did make me chuckle (from their FB):


----------



## CanserDYI

Backplate showed up today, love it!


----------



## spudmunkey

CanserDYI said:


> Backplate showed up today, love it!


Welcome to the "Kiesel with some sort of Maple control cover with some sort of aqua color and gloss finish from Forbidden Engravings" Club. It's very exclusive. Member dues are collected the 32nd of each Jovember.


----------



## mbardu

I like that part. Wonder if that will alleviate some of the drama over non returnable stuff.


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> I like that part. Wonder if that will alleviate some of the drama over non returnable stuff.
> 
> View attachment 98478



"I didn't get that pop up." The same person that would do that: https://imgur.com/gallery/kxuvibO


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> "I didn't get that pop up." The same person that would do that: https://imgur.com/gallery/kxuvibO


 omg


----------



## Hollowway

Can someone confirm that there are no more 8 string trem options for Kiesel? I think I remember hearing about it, but playing around with the builder I can’t get anything other than multiscale 8 strings, and no trem option whatsoever.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> Can someone confirm that there are no more 8 string trem options for Kiesel? I think I remember hearing about it, but playing around with the builder I can’t get anything other than multiscale 8 strings, and no trem option whatsoever.



TL;DR: Vader.

Hipshot doesn't make a non-headless 8 string trem, and as far as headless 8s from Kiesel that aren't multiscale, it's just the Vader after the non-multiacale 8 was delisted from the Osiris and Zeus.


----------



## lurè

Themistocles said:


> Ive only been able to get raw tone to show up when I do an ash body... not ash top (this is for vaders)



I had to choose swamp ash body and satin finish, then it showed up between gloss and satin.
Not sure if they chance anything but to my knowledge raw tone is only available for ash bodies.


----------



## spudmunkey

lurè said:


> Not sure if they chance anything but to my knowledge raw tone is only available for ash bodies.



When they first launched the finish a few years ago, they only offered it on the ash because that was the only wood that showed any texture. About 6mo later, and at least once more since then, they've either updated their process or changed the formulation so that it's a much thinner end result, able to show some texture of almost all of their regular woods, aside from the non-burled maples and alder which don't show much of anything. Since the raw tone finish itself is already a non-returnable option (unless you get the Johnny Hiland or Dustin Davidson signature models where it's the only option) there are no extra restrictions on the other woods, other than the old builder only giving you the option with ash (where it shows the best), and Kiesel never removing the old "only ash" verbiage from the old builder. Now, they still have the seemingly arbitrary restriction in place, but that's just because it's the wood that shows the best, by far, and I imagine they want to be able to communicate that to someone who wants anything else, by speaking with them over the phone or in an email.

Here's a facebook post from 5 years ago with the British racing green over a walnut top with the raw tone finish:
https://www.facebook.com/kieselguit...tSWZORFJWM1RTQkQ2RFpSM1AwdyZ0PUFBQUFBR0ZjQmJF


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> I like that part. Wonder if that will alleviate some of the drama over non returnable stuff.
> 
> View attachment 98478



They even take it a step further, if you add the guitar to your cart. You can't proceed until you click "I agree".


----------



## laxu

mbardu said:


> I like that part. Wonder if that will alleviate some of the drama over non returnable stuff.
> 
> View attachment 98478



This is super annoying when playing with the different options though. I wish they showed it in a less intrusive manner by maybe marking non-returnable options and not showing a popup every time. Then have that confirmation screen when ordering it.

The options that make it non-returnable seem weirdly arbitrary though. Why is a 12-16" fingerboard radius non-returnable? I mean that's just a standard compound radius most people would not even think about. I can understand that some higher end top woods make it non-returnable but a freakin' fingerboard radius?


----------



## spudmunkey

laxu said:


> This is super annoying when playing with the different options though. I wish they showed it in a less intrusive manner by maybe marking non-returnable options and not showing a popup every time. Then have that confirmation screen when ordering it.
> 
> The options that make it non-returnable seem weirdly arbitrary though. Why is a 12-16" fingerboard radius non-returnable? I mean that's just a standard compound radius most people would not even think about. I can understand that some higher end top woods make it non-returnable but a freakin' fingerboard radius?



It's just because it's a newer option, and it's sort of on probation. It's not available on all models, and there's apparently enough people that actively dislike it, so they see it as a "hard-to-sell-as-in-stock" liability.


----------



## bigcupholder

spudmunkey said:


> It's just because it's a newer option, and it's sort of on probation. It's not available on all models, and there's apparently enough people that actively dislike it, so they see it as a "hard-to-sell-as-in-stock" liability.


There's people that dislike it? It's to have even action up and down the neck (because the string spacing is wider at the bridge). It's objectively a good thing and so subtle that I don't see how it'd bother someone.

That said, I skipped it on my build because I didn't think it was worth the upcharge. I wasn't even aware it was non-returnable when I ordered.


----------



## Tree

I am absolutely loving the fact that they've finally implemented a builder. I've wanted this since I first discovered Carvin when I was like 15 and would waste time sitting on the page piecing together theoretical builds.

Would anyone like to contribute to my "I no longer have a gaudy Kiesel, but I would like to own a gaudy Kiesel again" fund?


----------



## bigcupholder

If the builder was available last year I might've gone for a vanquish instead of a DC600...

The headstock matching the fretboard is generally a good look but it really helps the small headstock look coherent with the rest of the guitar here.


----------



## Themistocles

lurè said:


> I had to choose swamp ash body and satin finish, then it showed up between gloss and satin.
> Not sure if they chance anything but to my knowledge raw tone is only available for ash bodies.


They do it on a few wood types now... something I learned when I called.


----------



## laxu

It's a shame they didn't implement a 3D model type approach like Fender has on their mod shop. I think a lot of Kiesel models look way better in 3D than they look from the front.


----------



## spudmunkey

yeah, the builder will likely always only show it for ash because it's just the wood that shows it the best, and other woods aren't as attractive as consistently. Walnut can be swoopy and loopy, or it can be...kind of evenly textured. Ash is more predictable...but they've offered it on other woods as a special request for years now.


----------



## CanserDYI

So. Sick. Need. This.


----------



## spudmunkey

To me, the crackle renderings are backwards. That looks like tropic OVER black. Meaning it should look like black areas, with tropic peeking through cracks. The renderings look like patches of tropic, with the black coming through cracks.


----------



## mbardu

I'll post mine here too.





Too bad there's not a bit of perspective to see the natural body binding...
I have zero need for this guitar, but tons of WANT.

Sadly, and even though that's one of my favorite shape of theirs, I cannot for the life of me build a Leia that looks nice. 
I much prefer the real life pictures for that model, whereas all the renderings in the builder look blehrg to my eyes.


----------



## spudmunkey

A better visual of the crackle thing I'm talking about:


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> A better visual of the crackle thing I'm talking about:
> View attachment 98591



Is this the reeeeaaaaal life?
Is this just _rendering_?


----------



## Themistocles

mbardu said:


> Is this the reeeeaaaaal life?
> Is this just _rendering_?


caught in a landslide
no escape from Kiesel builder-ing


----------



## xzacx

mbardu said:


> I'll post mine here too.
> 
> View attachment 98589
> View attachment 98590
> 
> 
> Too bad there's not a bit of perspective to see the natural body binding...
> I have zero need for this guitar, but tons of WANT.
> 
> Sadly, and even though that's one of my favorite shape of theirs, I cannot for the life of me build a Leia that looks nice.
> I much prefer the real life pictures for that model, whereas all the renderings in the builder look blehrg to my eyes.



What does Kiesel call this green? That’s a top-notch color. Kinda like one shade lighter than BRG.


----------



## spudmunkey

Themistocles said:


> caught in a landslide
> no escape from Kiesel builder-ing



You had a chance to say "beveling" and you missed it. I am disappoint.


----------



## spudmunkey

xzacx said:


> What does Kiesel call this green? That’s a top-notch color. Kinda like one shade lighter than BRG.


That's their trans teal, on a plain maple top and alder body.


----------



## Themistocles

spudmunkey said:


> You had a chance to say "beveling" and you missed it. I am disappoint.


Open your eyes
look to the bevel and seeeeeee!


----------



## mbardu

xzacx said:


> What does Kiesel call this green? That’s a top-notch color. Kinda like one shade lighter than BRG.



That's their translucent teal.
They actually have a lot of killer "sleeper" colors like that that stay under the radar because a lot of the build have the more in-your-face finishes.
Most look quite a bit better in real life too.


----------



## spudmunkey

A similar guitar (crescent, plain maple top) in aqua (same finish type, a transparent paint, but a little more blue/less great than teal):


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> A similar guitar (crescent, plain maple top) in aqua (same finish type, a transparent paint, but a little more blue/less great than teal):



Aqua is very nice too.
In fact most of their translucent paints are pretty great.
Their bursts can be so-so, but single color are usually top notch.
Even some that don't look great in the builder end up very nice in person - I'm thinking of the Orange/Yellow/Green shades that look pretty bad in the renders I've tried.

Red and purple are a bit too dark in real life IMO - but I guess part of that may be personal preference.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> To me, the crackle renderings are backwards. That looks like tropic OVER black. Meaning it should look like black areas, with tropic peeking through cracks. The renderings look like patches of tropic, with the black coming through cracks.


It’s all about who you know, and I know Crackle.


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> Red and purple are a bit too dark in real life IMO - but I guess part of that may be personal preference.



You're right about that. Especially if you've got a black burst, and double especially if there's a pickguard covering even more of the lighter area.

Someone on the forum just got a JB bass in purple flame, with blackburst edges. In all but direct sunlight, you could barely tell it wasn't just black.

For me, rule of thumb advice: for red, blue, or purple, either go with a trans black burst edge (not the standard opaque), request a thinner burst if you like that look, and black pickups, because if they are white, your eyes adjust to the white making the surrounding colors look darker in comparison. I know that sounds silly, but it's true.

The one in the middle with the white pickups is the Wine Red, with Antique ash under it, in a room with the "normal" amount of light this room gets from the boob light. I even have some photos where you couldn't tell it wasn't black.





This is that same guitar, though, when there's a light shining right on it, from a very bright 3800k can light shining right down onto it:


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> You're right about that. Especially if you've got a black burst, and double especially if there's a pickguard covering even more of the lighter area.
> 
> Someone on the forum just got a JB bass in purple flame, with blackburst edges. In all but direct sunlight, you could barely tell it wasn't just black.
> 
> For me, rule of thumb advice: for red, blue, or purple, either go with a trans black burst edge (not the standard opaque), request a thinner burst if you like that look, and black pickups, because if they are white, your eyes adjust to the white making the surrounding colors look darker in comparison. I know that sounds silly, but it's true.
> 
> The one in the middle with the white pickups is the Wine Red, with Antique ash under it, in a room with the "normal" amount of light this room gets from the boob light. I even have some photos where you couldn't tell it wasn't black.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is that same guitar, though, when there's a light shining right on it, from a very bright 3800k can light shining right down onto it:



This is a plain gloss black guitar right?




_syke_

It's actually a T H I C C piece of quilt top in purple


----------



## spudmunkey

On this one, the darkness is exacerbated by the pickguard blocking much of what's supposed to be the brightest/lightest part of the top.

New Bass Day photo:




This is Kiesel's own photo when they got the customer's return, to sell it in the in-stock:




But with the light on it:




In the end, the customer is going without the burst, with a lighter purple finish, and in gloss so the diffused glare doesn't wash it out, and the color can really punch.


----------



## SymmetricScars

I never really did a NGD for my used Osiris so I’m going to give a mini review for both of my Kiesels here.

Pics here 

I ordered a multiscale Vader 7 in March as a PhD graduation gift and received it in late June, just a few weeks late of my June 1st estimated completion date. Purple to blue color shift finish in satin matte, walnut neck, less color variation ebony fretboard, jumbo stainless steel frets. The color shift finish is fucking incredible in person, and can look very very close to pearl blue from head on, or quite purple when viewed at an angle. The satin finish is also insanely smooth; I’m taking great care not to gloss it up though. I actually really like the two different strap buttons to choose from.

Not long after I received the Vader, I picked up a used multiscale Osiris 6 off Reverb. Blue mist metallic matte finish, three piece walnut/maple/walnut neck, royal ebony fretboard, and the original pickups had been replaced with the SD Nazgul/Sentient. I tuned it to CGCFGC for some Monuments fun, and a half step lower for some original stuff.

To be honest, I prefer my Osiris to my Vader in terms of playability. That's not exactly a problem, it just stings a little because I spent half as much on it  Aesthetically, the Vader is my favorite headless Kiesel model, though I also quite like the Osiris and Zeus. For one thing, since both of my guitars have the very flat 20” radius, the main difference is the fretwire size, and it turns out I prefer the smaller fretsize of the Osiris. It’s not a dealbreaker, but it’s noticeable when I switch between them. The jumbo option is so popular that I decided to try it, and in retrospect I wish I would’ve kept the mediums, but oh well. I think overall I also just prefer bolt-on models to neck-throughs in terms of how they feel/respond.

I also have come to realize I prefer the feel of maple to walnut for the neck. The three piece neck is a great compromise, because it looks like walnut while I’m playing, but my thumb is predominantly on the maple center. Honestly, the satin finishes are so incredibly smooth that I might have even preferred a finished neck to the pure walnut on my Vader.

I’m still on the fence about the Lithiums in my VM7. I like them when I’m just jamming, but in a recording they sit a little differently than I’m used to. They do have good string clarity, even with a fair amount of gain. But to be frank, I ordered the Vader to be a djent machine, and I still haven’t yet restrung it, tuned it down, and given it a truss rod adjustment, so my opinion may improve once I put it to use for its intended purpose. It’s got a bit of fretbuzz on the open Bb that I need to resolve. I do really enjoy the split coil bridge for lead playing, which is weird because normally I’m a neck pickup guy.

I’m definitely digging the Nazgul/Sentient combo in the OM6. Because of the tuning I’m not doing much lead playing on this so I haven’t really exercised the Sentient much but the Nazgul has a pretty mean chug. I can see why some people don’t like it, the top end is a little harsh, but nothing the right eq/amp setting/IR won’t tame.

On a different note, I’m loving the virtual builder. I’ve been “photoshopping” builds for ages (more like 9000 hours in Paint) but this is way more convenient. I inherited my first car, a forest green Isuzu Rodeo, after my dad passed away in 2006. I grew to love that car, and drove it into the ground by 2018 when it had to be retired. For a while I’ve wanted to put together something commemorative, so I spec’d this Zeus I affectionately dub the Isuzeus. The British Racing Green in gloss does a pretty good job of capturing the color of the car. Specs not visible: 24.75” scale, Holdsworth pups. Pretty reasonable at $1739 imo. I’m not a trem guy but I’d like to learn, I really enjoy the way Scott Carstairs uses his. 

Overall my experience with Kiesel has been good. I'm quite happy with both guitars and I'll probably end up with 1, maybe 2 more before I save longer and try something new like Mayo/Aristides. Besides that Zeus, I'm interest in trying an Evertune so I've been eyeing an Aries build too. I'd echo the usual sentiments that, while you can build some beautiful (or horrifying) guitars with all the options available, the aesthetic options don't make it play any better and can ramp up the price very quickly. I splurged a bit on the Vader, but in the future I'll stick to primarily playability options.


----------



## gunch

The crescent would be insane


----------



## mbardu

gunch said:


> View attachment 98670
> View attachment 98671
> View attachment 98672
> 
> 
> The crescent would be insane



I really like the visual balance of multiscale Crescents.

I'd much prefer a 24.75 to 25.5 fan for general E use, but I _do kinda _need a longer scale. 
Just not willing to pay quite that $$$ for the limited mileage I'd get out of it.


----------



## bigcupholder

mbardu said:


> I really like the visual balance of multiscale Crescents.
> 
> I'd much prefer a 24.75 to 25.5 fan for general E use, but I _do kinda _need a longer scale.
> Just not willing to pay quite that $$$ for the limited mileage I'd get out of it.


I'm surprised how few companies make a 24.75-25.5" multiscale. Balaguer is the only one I'm aware of. Any chance that's one of those hidden options with Kiesel where you only know about it by calling in?


----------



## danbox

bigcupholder said:


> I'm surprised how few companies make a 24.75-25.5" multiscale. Balaguer is the only one I'm aware of. Any chance that's one of those hidden options with Kiesel where you only know about it by calling in?



Yeah I wish that was available for standard e, probably even down to standard d.

solar has a 24.75-26, seems cool https://www.solar-guitars.com/product/a1-6dbop-ff/


----------



## CanserDYI

Anyone else think multiscale 6s look weird?


----------



## CanserDYI

@spudmunkey I got NIN because it's a sin in my opinion to inlay figured fretboards, but now I need some upper inlays...remembering your post about your sticker inlay, how did it hold up? I just want a few on the upper frets and have RE board and want to make sure they won't eat away or anything crazy to fretboard.


----------



## spudmunkey

CanserDYI said:


> @spudmunkey I got NIN because it's a sin in my opinion to inlay figured fretboards, but now I need some upper inlays...remembering your post about your sticker inlay, how did it hold up? I just want a few on the upper frets and have RE board and want to make sure they won't eat away or anything crazy to fretboard.


They've held up fine, but I only have them on my nylon string classical guitar, and I've not taken them off. They've been on for so long, though I would expect the wood's faded some where it isn't covered, and bet there could still be a pattern left behind even if they came off perfectly cleanly.


----------



## spudmunkey

bigcupholder said:


> I'm surprised how few companies make a 24.75-25.5" multiscale. Balaguer is the only one I'm aware of. Any chance that's one of those hidden options with Kiesel where you only know about it by calling in?



Not that I've ever seen/heard. Strangers had(has?) some. With trems (not sure if they also came without them at that scale)


----------



## Hollowway

@spudmunkey I don't see any info on the BBS on elsewhere, but maybe you know - when might the in-stock page be ported over to the new site?


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> @spudmunkey I don't see any info on the BBS on elsewhere, but maybe you know - when might the in-stock page be ported over to the new site?



So there's not been an official word. Right now the priority is stamping out errors/quirks of the guitar builder. I'm not sure if the bass builder is the next priority or GIS. The bass builder, in a live Q&A, Jeff guestimated 2 months. My guess, though will be January, since I believe there's more "quirks" than they first thought and stamping them out may take longer that expected, and then there's like 2 weeks of holidays in there...

And just an FYI...there's also no link to the BBS on the webpage, so I wouldn't expect that to last much longer, unfortunately. It's possible things may be re-added like a parts/pickups page, or other resources like a spec guide...but I'm not optimistic about the BBS's future. As far as a Kiesel employee presence, Brandon Ewing was on about 2 weeks ago, but he hasn't posted since 2018. Chris Hong hasn't logged on since February. Flock (Jason, showroom manager/sales) hasn't logged in since 2018. Jesse Michel (Social media) hasn't been logged in since November 2017. Albert, the head guitar tech, hasn't logged in since 2016. The person who managed the BBS is also behind carvinmuseum and there used to be a link to that on the top of the Kiesel BBS, but that link's gone.

I wouldn't be surprised if it sticks around just until they get a hosting bill, and someone goes, "Oh yeah...that's a thing. Guess we should probably cancel that..."


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> So there's not been an official word. Right now the priority is stamping out errors/quirks of the guitar builder. I'm not sure if the bass builder is the next priority or GIS. The bass builder, in a live Q&A, Jeff guestimated 2 months. My guess, though will be January, since I believe there's more "quirks" than they first thought and stamping them out may take longer that expected, and then there's like 2 weeks of holidays in there...
> 
> And just an FYI...there's also no link to the BBS on the webpage, so I wouldn't expect that to last much longer, unfortunately. It's possible things may be re-added like a parts/pickups page, or other resources like a spec guide...but I'm not optimistic about the BBS's future. As far as a Kiesel employee presence, Brandon Ewing was on about 2 weeks ago, but he hasn't posted since 2018. Chris Hong hasn't logged on since February. Flock (Jason, showroom manager/sales) hasn't logged in since 2018. Jesse Michel (Social media) hasn't been logged in since November 2017. Albert, the head guitar tech, hasn't logged in since 2016. The person who managed the BBS is also behind carvinmuseum and there used to be a link to that on the top of the Kiesel BBS, but that link's gone.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if it sticks around just until they get a hosting bill, and someone goes, "Oh yeah...that's a thing. Guess we should probably cancel that..."


That’s a drag. The BBS was/is cool. I know forums in general are dwindling, but FB is a piss poor replacement for them, due to the inherent lack or organization.


----------



## Stuck_in_a_dream

...and there lies the problem with builders, too many options. I cannot choose anything from these ones, I feel like I got to have'em all, which my wallet strongly opposes .


----------



## Hollowway

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> ...and there lies the problem with builders, too many options. I cannot choose anything from these ones, I feel like I got to have'em all, which my wallet strongly opposes .
> 
> View attachment 98688


That orange is the winner, IMO. Do eeet!


----------



## spudmunkey

What's hilarious is the one that appeals to me most is one that has 3 errors from the builder.
1) Can't get direct mount pickups on the CS (unless you get their P90 routes and send in your own P90s)
2) Can't get the hipshot fixed bridge on the CS since that area of the top is contoured

The direct-mount pickups happen when you switch models from something like the Crescent to the CS3, SH550 or CS3, and the bridge and pickups issue is when you switch from a headless model to the SH550, SH6 and CS3 (but not the CS6)

3) If you get block inlays on the 24-fret version, there's no inlay on the 24th fret


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> What's hilarious is the one that appeals to me most is one that has 3 errors from the builder.
> 1) Can't get direct mount pickups on the CS (unless you get their P90 routes and send in your own P90s)
> 2) Can't get the hipshot fixed bridge on the CS since that area of the top is contoured
> 
> The direct-mount pickups happen when you switch models from something like the Crescent to the, and the bridge and pickups issue is when you switch from a headless model to the SH550, SH6 and CS3 (but not the CS6)
> 
> 3) If you get block inlays on the 24-fret version, there's no inlay on the 24th fret
> 
> View attachment 98700


That IS hot with those direct mounts and hipshot. Too bad that's not a legit option!


----------



## MaxOfMetal

The best part of the builder is all the options they're too stuffy to offer but could totally do it if they wanted.


----------



## Stuck_in_a_dream

MaxOfMetal said:


> The best part of the builder is all the options they're too stuffy to offer but could totally do it if they wanted.



Totally, but for the life of me I couldn't figure out why solid white + black burst edges is frowned upon. This one baffles me quite a bit given that light blue, light pink, and several other light solid colors are just fine.


----------



## Stuck_in_a_dream

K, I'm officially losing my mind . Now for next yr i'm really torn between another Tidis H/07 w/ trem or a Kiesel OM8, man!


----------



## RevelGTR

Thinking of ordering a Zeus with a bit of an AZ/Suhr vibe. What do we think between these two colors? 












7E6A15F0-E909-480A-8922-F74556B03632



__ RevelGTR
__ Oct 11, 2021



Zeus Colors


----------



## MaxOfMetal

RevelGTR said:


> Thinking of ordering a Zeus with a bit of an AZ/Suhr vibe. What do we think between these two colors?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 7E6A15F0-E909-480A-8922-F74556B03632
> 
> 
> 
> __ RevelGTR
> __ Oct 11, 2021
> 
> 
> 
> Zeus Colors



Left by an inch. 

Good taste regardless.


----------



## RevelGTR

MaxOfMetal said:


> Left by an inch.
> 
> Good taste regardless.


Thanks man! I think I’m leaning towards the blue as well, it really goes nice with the gold logo and roasted board.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

RevelGTR said:


> Thanks man! I think I’m leaning towards the blue as well, it really goes nice with the gold logo and roasted board.



Someone on here got a Vanquish in a similar aesthetic (same blue with a figured board) and it looked absolutely killer. 

The gold logo definitely looks the best with the blue, IMHO.


----------



## spudmunkey

Definitely. If I were to go with the Tropic, I'd go with a silver logo.


----------



## mbardu

RevelGTR said:


> Thinking of ordering a Zeus with a bit of an AZ/Suhr vibe. What do we think between these two colors?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 7E6A15F0-E909-480A-8922-F74556B03632
> 
> 
> 
> __ RevelGTR
> __ Oct 11, 2021
> 
> 
> 
> Zeus Colors



Left is very nice. Do consider blue mist as well while you're at it.
Your build ideas remind me a bit of a Vader of mine, and I'll always recommend Blue Mist for that type of hues - it just looks killer in person.


----------



## RevelGTR

I went with the light blue! Extremely excited. A thumbnail of the specs that aren’t clearly visible:
- Swamp Ash Body
- 1 Piece Walnut Neck
- Berylliums
- 14” Radius
- Stainless Medium Jumbos
- Gloss Body Finish
- Drop Shadow Gold Metallic Logo












881B72D1-22C7-468F-B953-D1015CF3D298



__ RevelGTR
__ Oct 11, 2021


----------



## RevelGTR

mbardu said:


> Left is very nice. Do consider blue mist as well while you're at it.
> Your build ideas remind me a bit of a Vader of mine, and I'll always recommend Blue Mist for that type of hues - it just looks killer in person.
> 
> View attachment 98755


That’s an amazing color! Looks great on that Vader. The only thing that kept me with the light blue was really going for that Suhr/AZ aesthetic, kind of like an ultra ultra modern take on a 50’s Fender look.


----------



## mbardu

RevelGTR said:


> I went with the light blue! Extremely excited. A thumbnail of the specs that aren’t clearly visible:
> - Swamp Ash Body
> - 1 Piece Walnut Neck
> - Berylliums
> - 14” Radius
> - Stainless Medium Jumbos
> - Gloss Body Finish
> - Drop Shadow Gold Metallic Logo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 881B72D1-22C7-468F-B953-D1015CF3D298
> 
> 
> 
> __ RevelGTR
> __ Oct 11, 2021



Great choices. Particularly like the Walnut neck and Berryliums.
That's exactly the type of build one should get from Kiesel imho.

Only thing I would have done differently would be the gold, but that's personal preference.
If that's your take, why not gold pickup pole pieces and frets too  ?


----------



## spudmunkey

It's possible the Ultra V may now be available in 25.5" scale. I wonder if this is a part of a Ultra V refresh for the line with that multiscale 7 they teased, possibly a return of the 7-string straight scale, and an addition of the 25.5" scale option? Maybe with a multiscale 6? And supposedly they are building a reverse of the Multiscale 7 for someone...


----------



## RevelGTR

mbardu said:


> Great choices. Particularly like the Walnut neck and Berryliums.
> That's exactly the type of build one should get from Kiesel imho.
> 
> Only thing I would have done differently would be the gold, but that's personal preference.
> If that's your take, why not gold pickup pole pieces and frets too  ?


Totally fair! I went with the drop shadow gold because I love the gold decal logo look on my Suhr Tele. I thought it was a classy touch without going full gold bling, but those extra gold accents definitely could’ve worked too.


----------



## RevelGTR

Lol the new model descriptions on the website sound like they were written by a 15 year old or something: The ZEUS was the first bolt-on headless Kiesel guitar that displayed a distinctive top bevel. Thought to be one of the most comfortable contours, the compact size complements to create a modest body and excellent playability.


----------



## Electric Wizard

Do they charge sales tax for out of state orders? I assume they would but their phrasing on the faq page makes me think they might not.


----------



## CanserDYI

Electric Wizard said:


> Do they charge sales tax for out of state orders? I assume they would but their phrasing on the faq page makes me think they might not.


Nope, pretty cool lol.


----------



## spudmunkey

So what you are saying is that you prefer reporting the purchase in your income tax returns, instead?


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

Looks like I figured out a way to build the one I want, similar to the RGD I posted earlier aesthetic wise.... Any tips on how to share the pictures? Can't seem to get it to save to my computer


----------



## spudmunkey

Jeffrey Bain said:


> Looks like I figured out a way to build the one I want, similar to the RGD I posted earlier aesthetic wise.... Any tips on how to share the pictures? Can't seem to get it to save to my computer



If you're on windows, use the "Snip" tool and save it from there. Or you can screenshot it, paste it into Paint, where you can crop it and save it as a .jpg.


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

spudmunkey said:


> If you're on windows, use the "Snip" tool and save it from there. Or you can screenshot it, paste it into Paint, where you can crop it and save it as a .jpg.



Thanks Spud






I dig the looks. Also thought about going black limba instead of walnut; also like this look but think I like the walnut more:


----------



## spudmunkey

Those both look good with that finish combo. For that look, the only thing I'd change if it were for me, is maybe going with the offset dot inlays (or staggered offset dots), but that's just a personal preference. Everybody raves about the tung oiled walnut necks, but I haven't had a chance to try one.


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

spudmunkey said:


> Those both look good with that finish combo. For that look, the only thing I'd change if it were for me, is maybe going with the offset dot inlays, but that's just a personal preference. Everybody raves about the tung oiled walnut necks, but I haven't had a chance to try one.


Totally fucked off on completing the build haha... It will either have offset dots OR a blank board. Been trying to rely on side dots only and it's been going pretty well


----------



## spudmunkey

Jeffrey Bain said:


> Totally fucked off on completing the build haha... It will either have offset dots OR a blank board. Been trying to rely on side dots only and it's been going pretty well



Nice! I tried a "12th fret only" inlay on one I got from them in 2016, and it just wasn't enough for me. So for my 2020, I went with the offset, to still have all of the inlays, but them also gives me the largest contiguous area of uninterrupted (aside from the frets) wood.


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

spudmunkey said:


> Nice! I tried a "12th fret only" inlay on one I got from them in 2016, and it just wasn't enough for me. So for my 2020, I went with the offset, to still have all of the inlays, but them also gives me the largest contiguous area of uninterrupted (aside from the frets) wood.


I dig your theory here, if I HAVE to have the markers to ensure I don't play like rubbish, a good chunk of blank board would certainly help ease the pain


----------



## RickF

Sorry if this isn't the right thread to ask. But has anyone got a Kiesel Vader 8 string with the hipshot trem? Curious to know how well it performs. 

Eyeing an 8 string guitar and debating if to go with Kiesel, either Vader or Aries. 27" vs multiscale. Too many options


----------



## CanserDYI

Jeffrey Bain said:


> I dig your theory here, if I HAVE to have the markers to ensure I don't play like rubbish, a good chunk of blank board would certainly help ease the pain


I got NIN on my profile pic guitar, and its lovely, but yeah, after like 12th fret, I'm gonna probably put one or two custom inlays in, as it just turns into 40 frets lol


----------



## spudmunkey

Here's mine with offset (not staggered) dots:

The effect is exaggerated by the strip of sapwood though, camouflageing the abalone:


----------



## Hollowway

RickF said:


> Sorry if this isn't the right thread to ask. But has anyone got a Kiesel Vader 8 string with the hipshot trem? Curious to know how well it performs.
> 
> Eyeing an 8 string guitar and debating if to go with Kiesel, either Vader or Aries. 27" vs multiscale. Too many options


I have an Osiris with one. It’s nice, but it doesn’t have the range of a Floyd. Way the hell better than a Kahler, though.


----------



## mbardu

RickF said:


> Sorry if this isn't the right thread to ask. But has anyone got a Kiesel Vader 8 string with the hipshot trem? Curious to know how well it performs.
> 
> Eyeing an 8 string guitar and debating if to go with Kiesel, either Vader or Aries. 27" vs multiscale. Too many options



I can only comment on the 7 version, but couple of things to be aware of:

It is _extremely _high quality in terms of materials an machining. Seriously solid.
Stays in tune like some of the best systems around, and the knife-less design makes me think it's going to be very durable
Sustains well thanks to a T H I C C stock block
With some "downsides":

Aforementioned block makes the bridge HEAVY
The arm assembly is not the best, and can benefit from a simple swap
As @Hollowway said, not as much range as a Floyd


----------



## spudmunkey

Do either of you with them find that your body movements translate into trem movement, specifically leaning forward, any more than other terms? With the weight of the block, plus the weight of the tuners, it seems like it could be more susceptible to inertia-based tuning fluxuations.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> Do either of you with them find that your body movements translate into trem movement, specifically leaning forward, any more than other terms? With the weight of the block, plus the weight of the tuners, it seems like it could be more susceptible to inertia-based tuning fluxuations.


I’ll have to try that to see. I’ve never really thought about that, because I haven’t gigged in forever, and am usually sitting while I play.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> Do either of you with them find that your body movements translate into trem movement, specifically leaning forward, any more than other terms? With the weight of the block, plus the weight of the tuners, it seems like it could be more susceptible to inertia-based tuning fluxuations.



I never found a particularly noticeable difference. All floating bridges do it to some degree, and there's even somewhat significant variation from one setup to another even with the same model bridge. Which is why I don't setup guitars flat, but mounted in playing position. 

The Hipshot/Kiesel unit is pretty stiff, and that helps keep it in place, and while big, they're not particularly heavy, less than a pound and a half, vs. the heavier Floyd style units which can be up to two pounds.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Do either of you with them find that your body movements translate into trem movement, specifically leaning forward, any more than other terms? With the weight of the block, plus the weight of the tuners, it seems like it could be more susceptible to inertia-based tuning fluxuations.



It can fluctuate a bit, but not particularly notable / different from my other tremmed guitars.


----------



## RevelGTR

Now that my brain has ordered a medium low option Kiesel that will likely fit my needs perfectly, my heart is telling me to sell off some unused gear and order a djentastic blinged out monstrosity just like the ones I shake my head at when I see them on Instagram.












4DB591FB-C59A-4B04-ACAA-0973B56FD359



__ RevelGTR
__ Oct 15, 2021


----------



## spudmunkey

You know what I wish the builder had? A random spec generator.

I've been playing with it a LOT, and I find I've settled into a slump where I keep building out the same couple of spec combinations. I would like to start with random collections of specs that I could tweak for my preferred frets, string count. etc. It would likely come up with wood/finish combinations I hadn't thought of.

Sometimes I've taken a build-out for their semi-hollow carved top single cut SH550, and just randomly switched it to a Vanquish, and though. "Oooh...that's nice." Or tried building a Delos, then switching it to a Lightspeed, and thinking, "not a spec I would have come up with for a Lightspeed...but I like it!"


----------



## olejason

Why does adding the best headstock they offer (pointed angle) make so many options unavailable? Two weirdest ones I've found: 
1. You can't get a roasted maple neck with the pointed angle headstock
2. You can't get a matching koa overlay on the pointed angle headstock


----------



## spudmunkey

olejason said:


> Why does adding the best headstock they offer (pointed angle) make so many options unavailable? Two weirdest ones I've found:
> 1. You can't get a roasted maple neck with the pointed angle headstock
> 2. You can't get a matching koa overlay on the pointed angle headstock



I suspect it's a bug. I don't know about the koa overlay, but the pointed angle headstock is so much wider than their neck blanks, they have to actually add a small piece of wood to the tip (for all woods, but just the roasted maple). Perhaps...if it's not a bug...only thing I could think of is that they don't offer 3 , 5 or 7 piece necks with roasted maple, so...maybe...glueing the roasted maple to the side of the neck blank makes it two pieces...somehow...*sigh* Nevermind, I got nothin. It's probably a bug. I actually send in errors I find because I'm a dork like that (I also like to find/point out restaurant menu misspellings), so I'll add it to my next submission.

Some other fun bugs:
No logos on left-handed headless (or tung oil headless)



Deleting the Hyperdrive's body bevel actually also takes the burst color along with it:



The battery compartment location is in the wrong place for the Osiris and Zeus (but amusingly it's in the right place for the model that's a combination of both, the Lee McKinney LMX model):



3PB shouldn't be visible on an all-painted guitar:



You can't stain Koa, but it won't let you add a koa body to a maple top even if you have Rear Natural Clear option.

The routes for the side tabs on the 7-string pickups are wrong:



Black crackle on natural wood is technically possible (likely not meant to be offered on the builderthough), but there's a way to trick the builder into showing it, and when it does, the orientation doesn't make sense, because the wood pattern isn't what's meant to break apart to show black underneath. The white crackle is the correct way, though, strangely:



you can trick it into showing you a Delos without a pickguard...but the screws are still there.



headless, too:



The tops on the V220 are too thin in the rendering, if you can see the 5-piece neck on that chamfered edge behind the bridge. The top could only be veneer-thin if this were visible, and it's not.



This headstock is fun:



And that's not even a 1/4 of the list of bugs I've found. The post window just said I couldn't add any more images.


----------



## spudmunkey

olejason said:


> 2. You can't get a matching koa overlay on the pointed angle headstock



Actually...this one seems to work for me.

Plain koa body, plain koa top



Plain koa body, flamed koa top




Unless you're talking about a plain koa body with NO top. On the builder, they don't offer headstock overlays where there's just a body wood and not a top wood. The overlays come with the tops. You can get a headstock overlay to match a non-topped body, but it's a call-in option, though.


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

spudmunkey said:


> Actually...this one seems to work for me.
> 
> Plain koa body, plain koa top
> View attachment 98881
> 
> 
> Plain koa body, flamed koa top
> View attachment 98880
> 
> 
> 
> Unless you're talking about a plain koa body with NO top. On the builder, they don't offer headstock overlays where there's just a body wood and not a top wood. The overlays come with the tops. It's a call-in option, though.


En-kiesel-opedia over here lol. Endless knowledge from the man himself.


----------



## laxu

That's why builder software is not so straightforward to make when there are lots of constraints it needs to validate for different options. They start from simple "if 7 string then filter out this and that option" type stuff and snowballs into validating specific combinations of specs.


----------



## CanserDYI

Jeffrey Bain said:


> En-kiesel-opedia over here lol. Endless knowledge from the man himself.


He's a god damn 8th wonder of the world, Spud. I know he was doing some email work answering questions for them, but @spudmunkey if you joined the Kiesel sales team, I would personally buy all my guitars from you, cheers.


----------



## spudmunkey

laxu said:


> That's why builder software is not so straightforward to make when there are lots of constraints it needs to validate for different options. They start from simple "if 7 string then filter out this and that option" type stuff and snowballs into validating specific combinations of specs.



I haven't designed a web page since having to work out of a physical "Intranet Design" book, but I knew enough about Kiesel's offering to laugh whenever people were like, "I don't get why it's so hard, or why it would cost so much money. I could put together something in a week."

I'm genuinely curious if the virtual builder update came with any back-of-house system updates. I seems like not, as phoned/emailed in orders are still getting their order confirmations in the same old formats, based on screenshots people in the FB shared of their newly-placed order build sheets.

But besides the visual aspect, the best thing this builder does, from a customer's standpoint, is separates the body wood from the neck wood. That was the silliest aspect of the old builder. On one screen you had to pick a *combination* of neck and body woods, and each combination had a unique option code, and then on another screen, you could pick your multi-layered 3, 5 or 7-pieces necks. Or 1 piece flamed or roasted necks. . So you could have a build sheet that says "mahogany body/maple neck" on one line, and then "3-piece walnut and purpleheart neck" for a single-neck guitar.


----------



## wheresthefbomb

spudmunkey said:


> You know what I wish the builder had? A random spec generator.
> 
> I've been playing with it a LOT, and I find I've settled into a slump where I keep building out the same couple of spec combinations. I would like to start with random collections of specs that I could tweak for my preferred frets, string count. etc. It would likely come up with wood/finish combinations I hadn't thought of.
> 
> Sometimes I've taken a build-out for their semi-hollow carved top single cut SH550, and just randomly switched it to a Vanquish, and though. "Oooh...that's nice." Or tried building a Delos, then switching it to a Lightspeed, and thinking, "not a spec I would have come up with for a Lightspeed...but I like it!"



Great, now just imagine if it were like Oblivion and you could keep picking "random" to make it uglier every time.


----------



## BigViolin

The 8 string reverse needs to be fixed to "that Dean Lamb motherfucker" in the pulldown.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> I haven't designed a web page since having to work out of a physical "Intranet Design" book, but I knew enough about Kiesel's offering to laugh whenever people were like, "I don't get why it's so hard, or why it would cost so much money. I could put together something in a week."
> 
> I'm genuinely curious if the virtual builder update came with any back-of-house system updates. I seems like not, as phoned/emailed in orders are still getting their order confirmations in the same old formats, based on screenshots people in the FB shared of their newly-placed order build sheets.
> 
> But besides the visual aspect, the best thing this builder does, from a customer's standpoint, is separates the body wood from the neck wood. That was the silliest aspect of the old builder. On one screen you had to pick a *combination* of neck and body woods, and each combination had a unique option code, and then on another screen, you could pick your multi-layered 3, 5 or 7-pieces necks. Or 1 piece flamed or roasted necks. . So you could have a build sheet that says "mahogany body/maple neck" on one line, and then "3-piece walnut and purpleheart neck" for a single-neck guitar.


With all of the products available that are semi-customizable, you’d think someone would have designed an engine or SDK or something that would simplify these things. It SHOULD be easier to do than having a bunch of independent engineers build these things from scratch every time.


----------



## laxu

Hollowway said:


> With all of the products available that are semi-customizable, you’d think someone would have designed an engine or SDK or something that would simplify these things. It SHOULD be easier to do than having a bunch of independent engineers build these things from scratch every time.



There probably isn't money to be made from something like that. While there are several builders doing that semi-customizable thing, once you have sold your engine to them that's really as far as you can go with it and you would still need to provide feature and bug fixes to your clients. Maybe that's enough to feed a few developers but probably not enough to be a sustainable, growing business.

You also have to remember that a builder like that doesn't live in a vacuum and needs to integrate with the customer's website and sales systems which is a development cost.


----------



## BigViolin

So I assume the up-charge for black painted headstock only applies to a different colored body? Like if I order a black body will the headstock match without the up-charge? Or does that default to natural?

Also option prices seem buggy. On the summary-invoice page the headstock option that is $60 shows $26.08 in red crossed out with $33.92 as the charge. The guitar I priced out before the builder just got a few hundred bucks cheaper. I only ask as it seems people are actually buying guitars with the builder invoice. Apologies if this was already covered.


----------



## spudmunkey

BigViolin said:


> So I assume the up-charge for black painted headstock only applies to a different colored body? Like if I order a black body will the headstock match without the up-charge? Or does that default to natural?
> 
> Also option prices seem buggy. On the summary-invoice page the headstock option that is $60 shows $26.08 in red crossed out with $33.92 as the charge. The guitar I priced out before the builder just got a few hundred bucks cheaper. I only ask as it seems people are actually buying guitars with the builder invoice. Apologies if this was already covered.



So, with every build, you get $100 in fre options. I haven't tested this, but I *believe* the computer figures out how much of a discount on your option would equal $100, then applies that discount to each options line item. If you total up those red discounts, does it equal $100?

As for the black headstock, there was an issue with the old builder too, and I think it's going to be going away from this builder. Not many people order it, and it causes conflicts with the headstock overlays and logo colors (the paint color conflicts is why the logos are in the "body" section in the first place).


----------



## BigViolin

Yup, added up to $100.

Still don't understand the headstock default. It used to be color matches body, is this still true?

Thanks Spud! I, and many others owe you a cold one.


----------



## spudmunkey

BigViolin said:


> Yup, added up to $100.



OK, that's good to know. I assumed this was the case because of how a lot of stores handle "free" items: they prorate a discount on everything, so if you end up returning something you bought to get the "free" item, you still don't get back all of your money. Home depot does this with their "buy two $100 tools, get one $100 tool free" where if you return one of the $100 tools, you'll only get $66.

Still don't understand the headstock default. It used to be color matches body, is this still true?[/QUOTE]

Headstocks were always a little weird, because there were/are a lot of "Unless..." or "But if you..." caveats. Their old builder would let people add a $40 black painted headstock option even if the person selected a Jet Black painted guitar and it would have been that way standard, leading some confusion as to what it would be if you *didn't* select it.

As it stands right now, based on what I've been able to piece together:

Scenario 1: If you have an alder body and no top,
- Headstock is painted to match the body by default. If you have a neck wood different than the top wood, like say a walnut neck and an alder body, this could look fairly different with trans finishes. You also have an option for an overlay to match the fretboard. I'm not 100% sure what the clear finish on it is, but I believe it would be the same gloss/satin/raw tone as the body...but that's worth asking about.

Scenario II: If you have a body that is not alder (basically, any other wood that also is available as a top wood), but still without a top
- Headstock gets a body-matching overlay, and by default is painted to match the body. Same fretboard-matching overlay option is available. In this scenario, I *do* believe they will still put the headstock overlay on even if you are getting a solid paint finish, in case later on in the production the guitar gets the Raw Tone Satin finish and you'd want to see the matching grain texture.

Scenario C: If you have a body with a top:
- Headstock gets a body-matching overlay, and by default is painted to match the body. Same fretboard-matching overlay option is available. In this scenario, I *do* believe they will still put the headstock overlay on even if you are getting a solid paint finish, in case later on in the production the guitar gets the Raw Tone Satin finish and you'd want to see the matching grain texture. A scenario like this might be an ash body and top so you can get it chambered, then finished in Raw Tone Satin Jet Black.

There is a black-painted headstock option, but it's buggy, and I heard Jeff mention that it would probably go away from the builder just because of all of the conflicts, and not many people ordered it anyway, and many who did were ordering black guitars anyway and they just selected it thinking it would be something else if they didn't. It's available if you call, though.

There is also an option to have NO headstock finish or overlay, so you just see the bare neck blank wood. Apparently the vast majority of guitars that ended built with this option were mistakes. Headstock finish errors were some of their most common "spec error" reasons for people using their 10-day trial. Some models came that way as standard, but people didn't realize it, and/or their specific desired look wasn't understood clearly by the salesperson and they received some combination of wood/finish they weren't expecting. If you did want this, then you can still get it if you call.

Then there's the oddest scenario: someone wanting a headstock that doesn't match the body, nor the fretboard, nor just be the visible neck wood: someone who wants something like a mahogany body and neck, ebony board, but a flamed maple headstock. I remember one guy over on the forum years ago who just couldn't afford a quilted maple top, but it was his favorite wood, so he just got a quilted maple headstock overlay so he had SOME quilted maple. So, yeah...for weirdos like that lol, that would also be a call-in.


----------



## Themistocles

so this will be my raw tone v7-ish only with a mastergrade fretboard (ref = orange flecks), black pickup covers and an unpainted back raw tone black limba and neck (tung oil). for some reason the blacked out back wont go away on the builder... I suppose I could clear my cache but ehhh... Ash tops and mastergrade fretboard figure can vary soooo much who knows how surprised I will or wont be... Its the headless pumpkin guitar! Vader seems like their best design but I also like the hyperdrive


----------



## spudmunkey

When I got my Aries, that's the sort of ash grain pattern I was looking for. I didn't want to pay the "photo match" upcharge, but they were willing to add a text note to it. So I didn't quite get what I was looking for grain-wise because I didn't really communicate it well, but I did get a chuckle when I got the box:





In my head, I really want a "fun" Delos, in some sort of vibrant/bright color...but my brain just keeps making me spec out dark guitars all the time. My current 3 are already so dark.


----------



## Themistocles

spudmunkey said:


> When I got my Aries, that's the sort of ash grain pattern I was looking for. I didn't want to pay the "photo match" upcharge, but they were willing to add a text note to it. So I didn't quite get what I was looking for grain-wise because I didn't really communicate it well, but I did get a chuckle when I got the box:
> View attachment 98976
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In my head, I really want a "fun" Delos, in some sort of vibrant/bright color...but my brain just keeps making me spec out dark guitars all the time. My current 3 are already so dark.
> 
> View attachment 98978
> 
> View attachment 98979


lol nasty ash... I mean you can communicate some ideas but without picking the piece of wood yourself its a crapshoot. Me I like any ash that has grain... its all unusual so that will work. The more chaotic the better but I value things other donr. For example quilt maple bores me. Its pretty... but its not me.


----------



## mbardu

Themistocles said:


> lol nasty ash... I mean you can communicate some ideas but without picking the piece of wood yourself its a crapshoot. Me I like any ash that has grain... its all unusual so that will work. The more chaotic the better but I value things other donr. For example quilt maple bores me. Its pretty... but its not me.



Wrong! Your opinion is clearly invalid!
Regular linear ash is best ash.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> When I got my Aries, that's the sort of ash grain pattern I was looking for. I didn't want to pay the "photo match" upcharge, but they were willing to add a text note to it. So I didn't quite get what I was looking for grain-wise because I didn't really communicate it well, but I did get a chuckle when I got the box:
> View attachment 98976
> 
> 
> In my head, I really want a "fun" Delos, in some sort of vibrant/bright color...but my brain just keeps making me spec out dark guitars all the time. My current 3 are already so dark.
> 
> View attachment 98978
> 
> View attachment 98979



For fun/vibrant I was going to say Aqua...but you already have aqua and went for a darker finish with the burst.
So green is a good option - but moss is often quite subdued.
So why not bright limeburst?




They already know how to do it now.

Otherwise, bright pink. Although their basic orange or yellow can also be surprisingly vibrant too. As long as you don't insist (again) on a black burst of course 
Wildcard: green or raspberry flake if they end up re-doing promos on flakes one day.


----------



## Themistocles

mbardu said:


> Wrong! Your opinion is clearly invalid!
> Regular linear ash is best ash.
> 
> View attachment 98983


those arent perfectly straight... you will have to keep it in the ash straightener much longer if you want straight somehow "regular" grained ash...


----------



## mbardu

Themistocles said:


> those arent perfectly straight... you will have to keep it in the ash straightener much longer if you want straight somehow "regular" grained ash...



Yeah I know...I guess it'll just have to do


----------



## Themistocles

Ash can be hard on the ocd


----------



## spudmunkey

Dan Sugarman Artist Edition "Murder Axe" Model, limited (not sure if limited to qty or timing)



https://www.kieselguitars.com/dan-sugarman

There's technically nothing on the guitar itself that isn't available on a normal Crescent, but it does come with some Dan Sugarman stuff

A private one-on-one lesson with Dan over Skype or Zoom
A special edition signed photo
A copy of Dan's instrumental album [ Inside/Out | Part I ]
One free month as a student on Riffhard.com
A lifetime discount code at www.sugarmanshop.com for all current and future merch
Access to the second tier of Sugarman's Lesson Lounge
More surprise treats


----------



## CanserDYI

mbardu said:


> Wrong! Your opinion is clearly invalid!
> Regular linear ash is best ash.
> 
> View attachment 98983


Vander


spudmunkey said:


> Dan Sugarman Artist Edition "Murder Axe" Model, limited (not sure if limited to qty or timing)
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.kieselguitars.com/dan-sugarman
> 
> There's technically nothing on the guitar itself that isn't available on a normal Crescent, but it does come with some Dan Sugarman stuff
> 
> A private one-on-one lesson with Dan over Skype or Zoom
> A special edition signed photo
> A copy of Dan's instrumental album [ Inside/Out | Part I ]
> One free month as a student on Riffhard.com
> A lifetime discount code at www.sugarmanshop.com for all current and future merch
> Access to the second tier of Sugarman's Lesson Lounge
> More surprise treats



Uh while I don't care for Dan Sugarman in the least, nor that guitar, THAT is a cool package. I'd do that with an Allan Holdsworth, Jeff has to come up with a time machine first...


----------



## spudmunkey

Their in-stock page is back up-and-running.

https://www.kieselguitars.com/in-stocks

Oof... "custom swirl finish" $1749 I don't know if this is considered a "good" swirl or not, but I *really* dig it.


----------



## CanserDYI

spudmunkey said:


> Their in-stock page is back up-and-running.
> 
> https://www.kieselguitars.com/in-stocks
> 
> Oof... "custom swirl finish" $1749 I don't know if this is considered a "good" swirl or not, but I *really* dig it.
> 
> View attachment 99055


Yeah I super dig that one, almost looks like ash grain imo


----------



## Hollowway

@spudmunkey you beat me to it. I just saw those in-stocks are showing back up again. I suspect we’ll see more trickle in over the new few days, because no way they sold all those others during the down time. There aren’t any basses at all on this list now.


----------



## spudmunkey

I wonder if they have to wait for the bass builder to be complete before they can add GIS basses. They have a new method that's supposed to speed up the process of adding instruments, and I have to assume it's because they can just click through the builder...but that's just speculation on my part..

Two other things I'm really digging:
1) that natural neck-through Aries
2) Every instrument is less than what they say their "average" sale is, and 70% of them are under $2k.


----------



## danbox

That natural neck through Aries- I have an Ibanez that looks just like it, and $1k cheaper!

but I’d totally buy this one if it had a reversed headstock haha


----------



## mbardu

danbox said:


> That natural neck through Aries- I have an Ibanez that looks just like it, and $1k cheaper!



And I used to own a TA Angel that looked a _bit _like an Ibanez GIO from afar if you squinted your eyes a good bunch...yet you could literally have bought 20 GIOs with the price of one Anderson!

Can you imagine!? Why do people even buy Anderon or Kiesel when you could get 10 or 20 GIOs for the same price amirite


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> I wonder if they have to wait for the bass builder to be complete before they can add GIS basses. They have a new method that's supposed to speed up the process of adding instruments, and I have to assume it's because they can just click through the builder...but that's just speculation on my part..
> 
> Two other things I'm really digging:
> 1) that natural neck-through Aries
> 2) Every instrument is less than what they say their "average" sale is, and 70% of them are under $2k.



As for your 2)...there's some bias to the type of builds in there.
At the end of the day, a lot of that is basic builds on basic models...for 1700$.
Tough pill to swallow IMO.

Now, we're not in a vacuum so other brands are arguably worse... But still.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

spudmunkey said:


> Here's mine with offset (not staggered) dots:
> 
> The effect is exaggerated by the strip of sapwood though, camouflageing the abalone:


----------



## spudmunkey

The story behind the "swirl" Osiris in the in-stock: A buddy of Jeff's was doing some swirl paint jobs on skateboards, and offered to do a body. It's not a "dipped" swirl paint job, but he wasn't sure that the process actually was...he just knew it wasn't a dip. They got the body back, liked it, clear-finished it, and put it up for sale. No plans to offer swirl finishes, though.


----------



## pahulkster

https://reverb.com/item/44977818-kiesel-osiris-ox6-2019-one-off-custom-colorshift-paint

SO or kids?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

pahulkster said:


> https://reverb.com/item/44977818-kiesel-osiris-ox6-2019-one-off-custom-colorshift-paint
> 
> SO or kids?



That's like 10 minutes worth of buffing. 

Seller is clueless or really just wants it gone.


----------



## spudmunkey

Honestly, I'd rock it for a good price (still to rich for my blood), and yeah, it wouldn't take much to restore it...and depending on what caused it, I could imagine just wanting it out of my life and out of my mind.

"And please kindly stop asking how did the scratches happen I greatly appreciate it"

And...I can "get" nearly the whole aesthetic...I'd even let the green inlays on pale moon slide...but...the gold-on-green logo is just...


----------



## laxu

pahulkster said:


> https://reverb.com/item/44977818-kiesel-osiris-ox6-2019-one-off-custom-colorshift-paint
> 
> SO or kids?



Kids after seeing their dad's bad taste. I mean come on, that guitar would look great with black pickups and a darker wood fretboard. But nope, the person who ordered it went for freakin' green pickups.


----------



## CanserDYI

pahulkster said:


> https://reverb.com/item/44977818-kiesel-osiris-ox6-2019-one-off-custom-colorshift-paint
> 
> SO or kids?


It's definitely a SO, theres an angle where it says "dick" lol, and he says in the description "stop asking what happened" essentially. If it were kids, he would have put it in description.


----------



## Jeff

pahulkster said:


> https://reverb.com/item/44977818-kiesel-osiris-ox6-2019-one-off-custom-colorshift-paint
> 
> SO or kids?



That is one ugly mother fu&#er.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Took a look at the guitar on Reverb to see just how bad it was... yeah ok. I’m not going to be able to unsee that.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

that osiris is the ugliest kiesel I've seen since the atomic watermelon one


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> That's like 10 minutes worth of buffing.
> 
> Seller is *clueless* or really just wants it gone.



Clueless? I mean...have you _seen _the finish options he picked for his guitar?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> I mean...have you _seen _the finish options he picked for his guitar?



That shows that they were tasteless.


----------



## DoctorStoner

I like that color combo. For me its all flash or all natural, no point for any middle ground.
Also, it was down to $1600 or $1699 the other day and I'm sure he's ready to get rid of it.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

DoctorStoner said:


> I like that color combo. For me its all flash or all natural, no point for any middle ground.
> Also, it was down to $1600 or $1699 the other day and I'm sure he's ready to get rid of it.



Username checks out.


----------



## BigViolin

Wonder if they will add some of the simple off menu stuff like "tone knob delete" to the builder. I can't be arsed to make an actual phone call over something like that.


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

BigViolin said:


> Wonder if they will add some of the simple off menu stuff like "tone knob delete" to the builder. I can't be arsed to make an actual phone call over something like that.


I was thinking the same thing. I actually have been thinking about the Leia because of the lack of extreme bevels, while still being headless (Holdsworth a little too soft for me, if it's even still available). 

BUT I want it to have the control layout that this one has:





I imagine if they've done it once, they got it queued up in the CNC. Hoping they add something like this to the builder so I can really get a good feel for what it'll look like


----------



## RadoncROCKs

DoctorStoner said:


> I like that color combo. For me its all flash or all natural, no point for any middle ground.
> Also, it was down to $1600 or $1699 the other day and I'm sure he's ready to get rid of it.



I sent that guitar posting into Ridiculous Reverb Listings Youtube show when it was $2400. Didn't make it...


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Jeffrey Bain said:


> I imagine if they've done it once, they got it queued up in the CNC.



The excuse was always (going back at least to the 90's) that any modifications to pickup or control layout was done individually by hand, thus the reluctance and up-charge.


----------



## Hollowway

Am I just high on life or do the in-stocks seem surprisingly affordable compared to the old site?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Hollowway said:


> Am I just high on life or do the in-stocks seem surprisingly affordable compared to the old site?



Nah, I got that vibe too.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> Am I just high on life or do the in-stocks seem surprisingly affordable compared to the old site?



Yeah, I noticed that, too. Over half are less than $2k. Not sure what the story is on the Zeus with the signature inlays...those have been discontinued for almost 2 years...at least. 

But that Headless Delos is a good illustration about why you shouldn't pair an expensive top, with a smaller headless body, with a pickguard, AND opaque black burst edges. Considering that other non-headless has the same wood top, trans black edges (and a thinner burst), you can see, like, 800% more of the top wood.


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

MaxOfMetal said:


> The excuse was always (going back at least to the 90's) that any modifications to pickup or control layout was done individually by hand, thus the reluctance and up-charge.


Maaaaaaan fuck me. That 3 way switch position just irks me so bad. Might be worth an ask anyway just to see how much it is if they're willing to do it. Just vibe with the shape so much more than their other headless offerings.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Yeah, I noticed that, too. Over half are less than $2k. Not sure what the story is on the Zeus with the signature inlays...those have been discontinued for almost 2 years...at least.
> 
> But that Headless Delos is a good illustration about why you shouldn't pair an expensive top, with a smaller headless body, with a pickguard, AND opaque black burst edges. Considering that other non-headless has the same wood top, trans black edges (and a thinner burst), you can see, like, 800% more of the top wood.



A lot of it has to do with the majority of the models being very _very _barebones, not an actual decrease in price.
The few that add even a basic top are mostly over 2k$. And you don't even need a top or fancy options anymore...I know all the reasons (rebranding, inflation, new options, exceptions....) and the context of how much others have increased as well...but a one-pickup guitar with a flat finish from them for over 2,000$ is a bit jarring.


----------



## Jeff

Jeffrey Bain said:


> I was thinking the same thing. I actually have been thinking about the Leia because of the lack of extreme bevels, while still being headless (Holdsworth a little too soft for me, if it's even still available).
> 
> BUT I want it to have the control layout that this one has:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I imagine if they've done it once, they got it queued up in the CNC. Hoping they add something like this to the builder so I can really get a good feel for what it'll look like



Nice guitar, but that looks like the djent kid/YouTube Influencer Starter Pack™


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

Jeff said:


> Nice guitar, but that looks like the djent kid/YouTube Influencer Starter Pack™



Don't disagree with you. My only thing I want from that guitar is the control layout, quite literally nothing else.


----------



## CanserDYI

Jeff said:


> Nice guitar, but that looks like the djent kid/YouTube Influencer Starter Pack™


Ironically pretty sure that's Tre Xavier's simple rig, could be wrong but IIRC, it literally is a Djent Youtuber's travel rig.


----------



## Jeff

Jeffrey Bain said:


> Don't disagree with you. My only thing I want from that guitar is the control layout, quite literally nothing else.



Yeah makes sense. Weird that a control change is so out of the ordinary for them. I like that layout as well.


----------



## spudmunkey

Jeff said:


> Yeah makes sense. Weird that a control change is so out of the ordinary for them.



They do them all the time. it's just that once it's not their standard, they likely do them by hand, and it won't come with the 10-day trial.



CanserDYI said:


> Ironically pretty sure that's Tre Xavier's simple rig, could be wrong but IIRC, it literally is a Djent Youtuber's travel rig.



Yep:
"A Complete MOBILE Songwriting Rig"
https://geargods.net/lets-write-a-s...-songwriting-rig-luna-challenge-and-giveaway/


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

spudmunkey said:


> They do them all the time. it's just that once it's not their standard, they likely do them by hand, and it won't come with the 10-day trial.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep:
> "A Complete MOBILE Songwriting Rig"
> https://geargods.net/lets-write-a-s...-songwriting-rig-luna-challenge-and-giveaway/


Would the non-10 day = no return option?


----------



## Jeff

spudmunkey said:


> They do them all the time. it's just that once it's not their standard, they likely do them by hand, and it won't come with the 10-day trial.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep:
> "A Complete MOBILE Songwriting Rig"
> https://geargods.net/lets-write-a-s...-songwriting-rig-luna-challenge-and-giveaway/



 called it. I mean, I'm kind of a hypocrite, seeing as how I've got an Ibanez Q52 on order, and will be using it with an HX Stomp and an iPad. So, po' boy's ultimate mobile rig.  I don't remotely play djent though.


----------



## spudmunkey

Jeffrey Bain said:


> Would the non-10 day = no return option?



Yes. Most off-menu items (and some on-menu items like limited supply woods, and their fairly delicate ultra thin "raw tone satin" finish), void their 10-day trial period for returns.


----------



## BigViolin

IMO Tone knob delete should be the exception. I mean, who does Jeff think he's marketing to?


----------



## Jeff

BigViolin said:


> IMO Tone knob delete should be the exception. I mean, who does Jeff think he's marketing to?



It’s only really an issue if it’s delete tone, and move volume.


----------



## BigViolin

Not if you move it to the tone hole. As any self respecting humanoid would do.


----------



## spudmunkey

BigViolin said:


> move it to the tone hole



Calling that as an album name for my smoov neo-industrial dada funk quintet.


----------



## Jeff

BigViolin said:


> Not if you move it to the tone hole. As any self respecting humanoid would do.



Oh yeah totally. I just mean if it’s in some odd middle zone.


----------



## BigViolin

You can either move it to the tone hole or "call my guys".


----------



## spudmunkey

BigViolin said:


> You can either move it to the tone hole or "call my guys".


----------



## Seabeast2000

spudmunkey said:


> Calling that as an album name for my smoov neo-industrial dada funk quintet.



Your new lounge venue, "the Tone Hole"


----------



## Jeff

BigViolin said:


> You can either move it to the tone hole or "call my guys".



I’d rather not have to “call his guys”.


----------



## olejason

Wonder if "the guys" would do a pointed angled headstock on a bass? That was a no-go a few years ago when I asked about it.


----------



## spudmunkey

Halloween sale:


----------



## CanserDYI

spudmunkey said:


> Halloween sale:
> 
> View attachment 99429


I always like sales, especially Kiesel sales, but i dont want any of those options


----------



## RadoncROCKs

I was hoping for a Candy sale as in previous years, but I guess with the new builder they don't need that business.

I would have gone all in on a Crescent either Pink or Purple candy over master grade quilt


----------



## spudmunkey

RadoncROCKs said:


> I was hoping for a Candy sale as in previous years, but I guess with the new builder they don't need that business.
> 
> I would have gone all in on a Crescent either Pink or Purple candy over master grade quilt


Halloweennis rarely anything more than black and/or orange things. You want Black Friday. (If they do one this year)


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

spudmunkey said:


> Halloweennis rarely anything more than black and/or orange things. You want Black Friday. (If they do one this year)


I suspect Kiesel doing those types of sales is going to come to an end.


----------



## spudmunkey

There was one black Friday and one president's day where I think Jeff realized they went way over-board on the discounts. 

This one is basically their 2018 Halloween sale, plusthe addition of the free Thorium/Illusionist pickup upgrades.


----------



## spudmunkey

Looks like they are coming out with a version of their Solo that's more "tele"-like, with a pickguard, control plate, ashtray bridge, and "tele" pickups.

Spotted in a video one of their artists posted to their YouTube channel where they toured the factory. 

A few years ago they teased this Wilkinson bridge as a possible option for their Solo model, but it was never really "officially" available. It's got 3 saddles, but each one has a pivot point in the middle so you can adjust the angle.

In the video, Jeff mentioned that the pickups in one of the two they showed were SD Antiquity pickups. Kiesel doesn't make their own covered single coils, nor do they make a pickup with the 3 screws for an ashtray bridge.

The working name is the RS, or "Retro Solo", but it'll have the Solo's normal forearm contour, sloped plate-less neck joint, belly cut, and that pivoting-saddle bridge. Seeing how far out that pickguard extends on the bass side, I suspect it won't be available with the Solo's "SCB-like" optional body bevel, which is a bummer, IMO.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

spudmunkey said:


> Looks like they are coming out with a version of their Solo that's more "tele"-like, with a pickguard, control plate, ashtray bridge, and "tele" pickups.
> 
> Spotted in a video one of their artists posted to their YouTube channel where they toured the factory.
> 
> A few years ago they teased this Wilkinson bridge as a possible option for their Solo model, but it was never really "officially" available. It's got 3 saddles, but each one has a pivot point in the middle so you can adjust the angle.
> 
> In the video, Jeff mentioned that the pickups in one of the two they showed were SD Antiquity pickups. Kiesel doesn't make their own covered single coils, nor do they make a pickup with the 3 screws for an ashtray bridge.
> 
> The working name is the RS, or "Retro Solo", but it'll have the Solo's normal forearm contour, sloped plate-less neck joint, belly cut, and that pivoting-saddle bridge. Seeing how far out that pickguard extends on the bass side, I suspect it won't be available with the Solo's "SCB-like" optional body bevel, which is a bummer, IMO.
> 
> View attachment 99632


I don’t think I’d buy one, but this a great idea and looks good so far.


----------



## redragon

Are Teles like ‘the thing’ now?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

redragon said:


> Are Teles like ‘the thing’ now?



Were they ever not?


----------



## bigcupholder

There's already too many companies making Tele copies. 

I really don't understand this move from a business perspective - it doesn't fit their aesthetic, it introduces new parts to stock, and it likely means more low-cost builds when they're already running at capacity.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

bigcupholder said:


> There's already too many companies making Tele copies.
> 
> I really don't understand this move from a business perspective - it doesn't fit their aesthetic, it introduces new parts to stock, and it likely means more low-cost builds when they're already running at capacity.



Because Teles sell like crazy. Same reason Aristides did it. 

This is a genius move. They're going to literally print money with these things.


----------



## CanserDYI

Yeah, I'm kinda surprised they didn't take this route with the first Johnny Hiland sig, but these will sell like hotcakes.

Be prepared for a slew of hot pink dragon burst teles hitting reverb soon.


----------



## bigcupholder

MaxOfMetal said:


> Because Teles sell like crazy. Same reason Aristides did it.
> 
> This is a genius move. They're going to literally print money with these things.


But if they're already at production capacity (or over, if their build times keep increasing). They're already printing money. Selling cheaper models that require new parts to be stocked would only cost them money vs selling their existing models. For example, any $1300 Tele they make is taking the place of a $2000 Crescent/Aries/Vader at this point.

I'm curious if this means they're looking to expand into a bigger or second facility.


----------



## CanserDYI

The only thing they're going to have to stock is the bridges and the control plate and everything else they're already tooled up for.

I don't think this will replace a 2000 dollar Vader or Aries because it appeals to a different crowd that doesn't really look to Kiesel. Also, it's really really easy to make a delos 2k, I'm sure they'll get plenty of 2k+ tele builds. It does seem silly that they drop this at the busiest they've ever been, though.

I'm no economist or business minded person though.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

bigcupholder said:


> But if they're already at production capacity (or over, if their build times keep increasing). They're already printing money. Selling cheaper models that require new parts to be stocked would only cost them money vs selling their existing models. For example, any $1300 Tele they make is taking the place of a $2000 Crescent/Aries/Vader at this point.
> 
> I'm curious if this means they're looking to expand into a bigger or second facility.



Are they "at capacity"? What does that mean? They don't batch build, so it's more about stretching individual build times vs. not taking orders, which is usually what that means. 

Tele players aren't afraid of spending money, so I don't think the per unit price average will drop. 

This is just like brining the Delos to the lineup. The classic designs have an absolutely massive following and mean practically guaranteed sales to help prop up the more niche headless and pointy models.


----------



## IwantTacos

I wish they did standard tele routings when the multi scale solos were available. oh well.


----------



## CanserDYI

IwantTacos said:


> I wish they did standard tele routings when the multi scale solos were available. oh well.


You can still get a multiscale solo, even on the builder.


----------



## IwantTacos

CanserDYI said:


> You can still get a multiscale solo, even on the builder.



oh I thought they discontinued it.


----------



## binz

The Kiesel strats (delos) are to me the by far most appealing strats in the game, for the gt headstock alone (Ibanez or schecter can compete, can't stand anything that looks like the fender ones). So I'm probably one of the untypical potential Kiesel customers they can attract with these models. Makes perfect sense to expand to teles as well imo


----------



## bigcupholder

MaxOfMetal said:


> Are they "at capacity"? What does that mean? They don't batch build, so it's more about stretching individual build times vs. not taking orders, which is usually what that means.
> 
> Tele players aren't afraid of spending money, so I don't think the per unit price average will drop.
> 
> This is just like brining the Delos to the lineup. The classic designs have an absolutely massive following and mean practically guaranteed sales to help prop up the more niche headless and pointy models.


At capacity = they're getting orders faster than they can build them, so the wait time has been steadily increasing for the past year.

I assume the average price would drop because their bolt-on models are cheaper and I would guess people will be less likely to choose crazy aesthetic options (where the real markup is) for such a classic design. That's completely a guess though - I can't say I always understand Kiesel customers tastes.

In terms of stocking additional parts, it's not just the bridge and control plate. It's also the pickguards and the pickups. The latter is notable because they don't currently make Tele pickups.

There's nothing wrong with making a tele necessarily but the timing is weird.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

bigcupholder said:


> At capacity = they're getting orders faster than they can build them, so the wait time has been steadily increasing for the past year.
> 
> I assume the average price would drop because their bolt-on models are cheaper and I would guess people will be less likely to choose crazy aesthetic options (where the real markup is) for such a classic design. That's completely a guess though - I can't say I always understand Kiesel customers tastes.
> 
> In terms of stocking additional parts, it's not just the bridge and control plate. It's also the pickguards and the pickups. The latter is notable because they don't currently make Tele pickups.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with making a tele necessarily but the timing is weird.


Kiesel is in the business of selling guitars, Jeff’s wording of them being “at capacity” is not a bad thing like you seem to think it is. Jeff is going to always be thinking of ways to increase profits, he’s not Mother Theresa.


----------



## CanserDYI

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> Kiesel is in the business of selling guitars, Jeff’s wording of them being “at capacity” is not a bad thing like you seem to think it is. Jeff is going to always be thinking of ways to increase profits, he’s not Mother Theresa.


Read about Mother Theresa a bit, her and Jeff Kiesel have a lot more in common than you'd think....


----------



## MaxOfMetal

bigcupholder said:


> At capacity = they're getting orders faster than they can build them, so the wait time has been steadily increasing for the past year.
> 
> I assume the average price would drop because their bolt-on models are cheaper and I would guess people will be less likely to choose crazy aesthetic options (where the real markup is) for such a classic design. That's completely a guess though - I can't say I always understand Kiesel customers tastes.
> 
> In terms of stocking additional parts, it's not just the bridge and control plate. It's also the pickguards and the pickups. The latter is notable because they don't currently make Tele pickups.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with making a tele necessarily but the timing is weird.



This is basically just a minor tweak to the existing Solo model, they'll make the pickups and pickguard, and possibly the control plate, in-house like existing similar parts and the bridge can easily be ordered from regular wholesale suppliers they already use. They're not reinventing the wheel. 

As the Delos has shown, folks who want a more "classic" guitar can and will order them decked out with options, maybe not meme-bursts, but figured woods, especially fully flamed necks and boards, are extremely popular in the custom Tele space. 

Bolt-on models might be a little cheaper than the neck-thru stuff, but they're faster (thus cheaper) to make at large as you can work on both separately at the same time, which is why the Kiesel portfolio is largely bolt-on after decades of it being more sparse in that regard. 

Again, this is all familiar territory for Kiesel. Taking a Fender design and adapting it for themselves. If it wasn't a winning strategy we'd probably see less Delos, and not the continuing extensions.


----------



## ramses

binz said:


> ... So I'm probably one of the untypical potential Kiesel customers they can attract with these models ...



It worked on me. I finally own a 7-string strat.


----------



## CanserDYI

ramses said:


> It worked on me. I finally own a 7-string strat.


What I want is sacriledge to a lot of people, Trem'd Tele 7 string with a humbucker in the bridge


----------



## wheresthefbomb

It's going to be time, soon. Maybe not this year but early next year at the latest I'm going to put a payment down on a 24 fret LP style Carvin. I've firmly settled on this style of guitar but I'm not paying Gibson money and I'm ready to have a nice guitar that suits my needs.


----------



## CanserDYI

wheresthefbomb said:


> It's going to be time, soon. Maybe not this year but early next year at the latest I'm going to put a payment down on a 24 fret LP style Carvin. I've firmly settled on this style of guitar but I'm not paying Gibson money and I'm ready to have a nice guitar that suits my needs.


It'll be a bit hard to order a Carvin 

Unless youre buying used? Jeff wont put the carvin logo on anything but the JB.


----------



## wheresthefbomb

CanserDYI said:


> It'll be a bit hard to order a Carvin
> 
> Unless youre buying used? Jeff wont put the carvin logo on anything but the JB.



Hahaha, I wasn't aware, I don't suppose I much care what's on the headstock though.


----------



## RevelGTR

MaxOfMetal said:


> Are they "at capacity"? What does that mean? They don't batch build, so it's more about stretching individual build times vs. not taking orders, which is usually what that means.
> 
> Tele players aren't afraid of spending money, so I don't think the per unit price average will drop.
> 
> This is just like brining the Delos to the lineup. The classic designs have an absolutely massive following and mean practically guaranteed sales to help prop up the more niche headless and pointy models.


Yeah it blows me away that people fall for Jeff’s “I don’t knowww I MIGHT be cutting off orders we’re at capacity who knowsss” routine.


----------



## bigcupholder

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> Kiesel is in the business of selling guitars, Jeff’s wording of them being “at capacity” is not a bad thing like you seem to think it is. Jeff is going to always be thinking of ways to increase profits, he’s not Mother Theresa.


I think you missed my point. Obviously being at capacity is a good thing for them. I'm saying the only way to increase profits at that point are to increase capacity (usually a large investment is required, e.g. moving to a larger facility) or increasing profit per guitar (e.g. introducing a headless K series).

I'm basing the capacity assumption entirely on their build times increasing steadily over the past year, not anything he said in a video.


----------



## IwantTacos

that's assuming that tele players don't want some crackly watermelon burst tele.

I'm sure they do. they sell very few guitars at the base price.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

bigcupholder said:


> I think you missed my point. Obviously being at capacity is a good thing for them. I'm saying the only way to increase profits at that point are to increase capacity (usually a large investment is required, e.g. moving to a larger facility) or increasing profit per guitar (e.g. introducing a headless K series).
> 
> I'm basing the capacity assumption entirely on their build times increasing steadily over the past year, not anything he said in a video.



A new options package on an existing model that's quick to produce would also help. Little prototyping/R&D needed, and the bodies and necks can be made in tandem. 

If that happens to be one of the top five most popular models/options in the history of the instrument, well that doesn't hurt either.


----------



## spudmunkey

They will also be ending their long-running (I think probably 6 years now) "promo" of $100 in free options, likely by the end of the year, if not the end of the month, after Black Friday/Cyber Monday. This was brought up when someone asked if there will be a Black Friday special in the Q&A earlier in the week.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> A new options package on an existing model that's quick to produce would also help. Little prototyping/R&D needed, and the bodies and necks can be made in tandem.
> 
> If that happens to be one of the top five most popular models/options in the history of the instrument, well that doesn't hurt either.



And at least one of the differences from their existing standard model is designed to speed up production: control plate. In a Strat, that would also include the pickguard, but there's only one pickup in it on a Tele, so I'm not sure how much that actually helps. Same with the bridge.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

spudmunkey said:


> They will also be ending their long-running (I think probably 6 years now) "promo" of $100 in free options, likely by the end of the year, if not the end of the month, after Black Friday/Cyber Monday. This was brought up when someone asked if there will be a Black Friday special in the Q&A earlier in the week.


Thanks for the tip Spud, looks like I might order a Kiesel. This is looking like prices are going up up and away.


----------



## spudmunkey

For context, I just saw a breakdown of some Gibson price increases, where some models went up $300, $400, $500, and a double-neck SG went up $1,400!


----------



## CanserDYI

Yeah 2021 is price increase central.

I've said it on here before, but I work in the shipping/logistics industry, and just for your knowledge, box trucks, shipping containers, LTL freight etc, all costing about 3 times what it did this exact same time last year. This WILL and already has started to translate into a huge inflation in a lot of prices for a lot of things, every industry will be affected.


----------



## bigcupholder

CanserDYI said:


> Yeah 2021 is price increase central.
> 
> I've said it on here before, but I work in the shipping/logistics industry, and just for your knowledge, box trucks, shipping containers, LTL freight etc, all costing about 3 times what it did this exact same time last year. This WILL and already has started to translate into a huge inflation in a lot of prices for a lot of things, every industry will be affected.


So you're saying we should spend all our money before it's just worthless pieces of paper? 

Good thing I just bought an Axe FX 3.


----------



## Hollowway

Yeah, what sucks is we're not seeing that paycheck increase. I know NEW jobs are paying more, but companies aren't going to just randomly give us all raises. It's true though - I used to think that the recession of '08 was the best time to buy gear. Now I long for 2019.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> For context, I just saw a breakdown of some Gibson price increases, where some models went up $300, $400, $500, and a double-neck SG went up $1,400!



Gibson is doing what Jackson has been doing the last year or two, raising prices to lower orders so they can catch up. Production is so tight they're not even building certain shapes and models until late next year, if possible. So that's why we're seeing 20%+ increases, especially on the most popular legacy models like LPCs.

Ibanez is going to be doing ~15% across the line, and ESP is cutting production of much of the E-II line to focus on higher price home market and Original stuff.

That's what at capacity really looks like, having to choose what you need to cut so something leaves the shop.


----------



## spudmunkey

Well, I guess it would be fair to say that "at capacity" can have different meanings… is it the actual limitations that you simply can't produce any more without significant changes to what you produce? Or that you're already haveing to make those compromises that would have a significant effect on what you produce, and you really can't produce more. I feel like both are valid definitions. One's more if a physical limit, and one's more of a philosophical limit.

With wait times basically being double or triple what they were just a few years ago go, and Kiesel having to work so much overtime, not have as many promos, etc... it's clear that they are at some sort of idea of "capacity". For them to do much more volume, they would probably have to limit models, limit options, or have lead times be much longer by changing the way they produce their instruments (making them in batches).


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> Well, I guess it would be fair to say that "at capacity" can have different meanings… is it the actual limitations that you simply can't produce any more without significant changes to what you produce? Or that you're already haveing to make those compromises that would have a significant effect on what you produce, and you really can't produce more. I feel like both are valid definitions. One's more if a physical limit, and one's more of a philosophical limit.
> 
> With wait times basically being double or triple what they were just a few years ago go, and Kiesel having to work so much overtime, not have as many promos, etc... it's clear that they are at some sort of idea of "capacity". For them to do much more volume, they would probably have to limit models, limit options, or have lead times be much longer by changing the way they produce their instruments (making them in batches).



In manufacturing it has a real meaning, and it means you're "full", as in you have no room left for production so you either stop taking orders all together or you choose what takes priority. 

At least that's what it's always meant in the industries I've worked. 

A shop like Kiesel that produces one-offs directly has a lot of control of throughput, since it's not like they need to make 100 of a single unit to supply dealers and distributors, they just need to make 1, and can flex the build times as far as the consumer will bear. That's something of a luxury the big guys don't have since they need to service the distribution contracts they ink as far as order size and mix. 

So until they hit that barrier they haven't really hit their capacity limits, self set or not. 

But we're sort of splitting hairs over something Kiesel themselves haven't directly claimed.


----------



## nickgray

CanserDYI said:


> Yeah 2021 is price increase central.



Half a year ago I was thinking by the end of 2021 things will start getting back to normal, you know, with the vaccine and all 

Turns out the prices have increased, availability is bad, graphics cards still cost an absolute fuckton, and to top it off, our local used guitar market, which was already bad, became even more dried up.


----------



## BigViolin

Nice effort on adding the control option to the builder. Unfortunately it displays the two different options backwards on the guitar. I'm sure they will catch it soon, at least there is progress.


----------



## spudmunkey

BigViolin said:


> Nice effort on adding the control option to the builder. Unfortunately it displays the two different options backwards on the guitar. I'm sure they will catch it soon, at least there is progress.



Indeed.  I let them know on Friday...they've been pretty quick to turn-around other small issues like that, so I'd imagine that'll be fixed by mid-week.


----------



## spudmunkey

BigViolin said:


> Nice effort on adding the control option to the builder. Unfortunately it displays the two different options backwards on the guitar. I'm sure they will catch it soon, at least there is progress.





spudmunkey said:


> Indeed.  I let them know on Friday...they've been pretty quick to turn-around other small issues like that, so I'd imagine that'll be fixed by mid-week.



Looks like it's been fixed. At least on the one model I checked, the Aries:


----------



## Agalloch

Put in an order for my first Kiesel around Halloween! Pretty excited. Pics attached.

Also, a question, should I expect to hear anything from Kiesel at any point in the build process? All I got was the order confirmation, but nothing to confirm that it had passed "order review" or anything. Just curious!


----------



## spudmunkey

tofudoom said:


> Put in an order for my first Kiesel around Halloween! Pretty excited. Pics attached.
> 
> Also, a question, should I expect to hear anything from Kiesel at any point in the build process? All I got was the order confirmation, but nothing to confirm that it had passed "order review" or anything. Just curious!



Nope, they only contact they will make is if there's a spec that doesn't make sense. They usually start the guitar the next day, and the only communication you'll get is if final payment is still due, or an email from FedEx (not Kiesel) when it ships.


----------



## spudmunkey

https://www.kieselguitars.com/series/guitar/retro-solo

So, the new RS - Retro Solo: $1549 + case and shipping
22 frets, 6 strings, 25.5" scale only
Wilkinson by Gotoh ashtray bridge, with 3 solid brass pivoting saddles, also available in black for the first time
Seymour Duncan Antiquity bridge pickup, and STR-1 neck pickup
Gotoh control plate
10" standard radius
Dunlop 250k Super pots
If Gotoh makes a left-handed version of this bridge, they'll offer the model in left-handed.
Available with all standard pickguard materials
The woods that retain the 10-day trial period will be alder, ash, one-piece ash and mahogany. Others are available, but not with the 10-day trial.
There are two headstock options that retain the 10-day trial period: the GT and the reverse GT. Anything else would not come with the 10-day trial.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

spudmunkey said:


> https://www.kieselguitars.com/series/guitar/retro-solo
> 
> So, the new RS - Retro Solo: $1549 + case and shipping
> 22 frets, 6 strings, 25.5" scale only
> Wilkinson by Gotoh ashtray bridge, with 3 solid brass pivoting saddles, also available in black for the first time
> Seymour Duncan Antiquity bridge pickup, and STR-1 neck pickup
> Gotoh control plate
> 10" standard radius
> Dunlop 250k Super pots
> If Gotoh makes a left-handed version of this bridge, they'll offer the model in left-handed.
> Available with all standard pickguard materials
> The woods that retain the 10-day trial period will be alder, ash, one-piece ash and mahogany. Others are available, but not with the 10-day trial.
> There are two headstock options that retain the 10-day trial period: the GT and the reverse GT. Anything else would not come with the 10-day trial.
> 
> View attachment 99926


Did Jeff manage to make a shape this actually looks really good no matter how you turn your head? Well done J. Wiesel. (All jokes aside, most of the shapes to do grow on you the more you look at them, and some look better with more string on them).


----------



## spudmunkey

I didn't think I would, but I'm *really* digging the black bridge. Not sure I care for the pre-rusted SD Antiquity bridge pickup screws, but understand that's part if the Antiquity package.. Easy enough to swap out though. Even though the rest of the pickup is aged, I think I'd prefer polished screws.


----------



## Masoo2

am I stupid or are you literally not able to select a transwhite finish on the body in the editor? went to spec one out similar to the white proto and couldn't figure out how to get transwhite working


----------



## spudmunkey

Masoo2 said:


> am I stupid or are you literally not able to select a transwhite finish on the body in the editor? went to spec one out similar to the white proto and couldn't figure out how to get transwhite working


It may only pop up if you add a flamed maple, quilt maple or ash top, WITH an ash body


----------



## RevelGTR

As someone who primarily lives in the Tele & Strat as well as related boutiques world I think they knocked it out of the park as far as specs, especially the pickups and 10” radius. My only concern might be that the standard neck thickness and nut width are thinner and wider respectively than what most seem to like in this segment.


----------



## spudmunkey

Nothing one could do about the nut width, but they do offer a thick (+.03") and double thick (+.06") options.


----------



## RevelGTR

spudmunkey said:


> Nothing one could do about the nut width, but they do offer a thick (+.03") and double thick (+.06") options.


True, but what Kiesel considers double thick is what a huge portion of Tele players consider medium small  I’m sure they’ll sell like hotcakes though.


----------



## Avedas

spudmunkey said:


> https://www.kieselguitars.com/series/guitar/retro-solo
> 
> So, the new RS - Retro Solo: $1549 + case and shipping
> 22 frets, 6 strings, 25.5" scale only
> Wilkinson by Gotoh ashtray bridge, with 3 solid brass pivoting saddles, also available in black for the first time
> Seymour Duncan Antiquity bridge pickup, and STR-1 neck pickup
> Gotoh control plate
> 10" standard radius
> Dunlop 250k Super pots
> If Gotoh makes a left-handed version of this bridge, they'll offer the model in left-handed.
> Available with all standard pickguard materials
> The woods that retain the 10-day trial period will be alder, ash, one-piece ash and mahogany. Others are available, but not with the 10-day trial.
> There are two headstock options that retain the 10-day trial period: the GT and the reverse GT. Anything else would not come with the 10-day trial.
> 
> View attachment 99926


I've been waiting years for them to do this, and it looks really damn good. I might have to start considering a build.


----------



## CanserDYI

Avedas said:


> I've been waiting years for them to do this, and it looks really damn good. I might have to start considering a build.


I'd do it now, Jeff hasn't been keen on keeping prices low, and his idea of sales this year was "Well price hike in July, so get your order in now, thats your sale" and the Halloween sale which was free black inlays and free black hardware and stuff, which isnt much of a sale, really.


----------



## BigViolin

spudmunkey said:


> Looks like it's been fixed. At least on the one model I checked, the Aries:
> View attachment 99839
> 
> 
> View attachment 99840



They need to check it with different finishes and hardware color. With gold on black the knob just disappears.


----------



## NoodleFace

I noticed kiesel is always showcasing "hot chicks" that can't really play all that great. I mean I don't mind looking, but it'd be nice if they sponsored people that can actually play. Whos the creep doing that?


----------



## danbox

NoodleFace said:


> I noticed kiesel is always showcasing "hot chicks" that can't really play all that great. I mean I don't mind looking, but it'd be nice if they sponsored people that can actually play. Whos the creep doing that?


The only kiesel players I know are archspire. Hot dudes


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

NoodleFace said:


> I noticed kiesel is always showcasing "hot chicks" that can't really play all that great. I mean I don't mind looking, but it'd be nice if they sponsored people that can actually play. Whos the creep doing that?


I have noticed that too, it's not the worst thing to ever happen. But wouldn't you want to be recognized for your talent rather than your cleavage? Although I can't say that I wouldn't hang dong for some extra money while gaining exposure to a bigger crowd.


----------



## AltecGreen

NoodleFace said:


> I noticed kiesel is always showcasing "hot chicks" that can't really play all that great. I mean I don't mind looking, but it'd be nice if they sponsored people that can actually play. Whos the creep doing that?




How about Narumi (ex-Destrose, ex-Disqulia)?





Another Kiesel player I like, Kaz Horie from the Japanese prog metal band Vigilante.


----------



## NoodleFace

There's plenty of good players on the roster. But for every one of them it seems there's 4 Sophie lloyds


----------



## RobDobble6S7

They never really showcase those players. There's literally like 2 they cycle through on their instagram stories


----------



## bigcupholder

NoodleFace said:


> There's plenty of good players on the roster. But for every one of them it seems there's 4 Sophie lloyds


She's not great but she's not bad. Just like all these YouTube/Instagram stars who seemingly aren't actually in a band, it's about visibility more than musicianship. If someone has a million followers (totally made up number as an example), that's easy publicity. Whether she has the followers because of her playing or her looks (or both) is another matter, but I'd guess from Kiesel's side it's just about the followers.


----------



## CanserDYI

bigcupholder said:


> She's not great but she's not bad. Just like all these YouTube/Instagram stars who seemingly aren't actually in a band, it's about visibility more than musicianship. If someone has a million followers (totally made up number as an example), that's easy publicity. Whether she has the followers because of her playing or her looks (or both) is another matter, but I'd guess from Kiesel's side it's just about the followers.


Seeing as their poster child right now is Five Finger Death Punch...yeah...its followers, not music. Although Andy James himself is a fantastic musician, jesus that band sucks.


----------



## jco5055

I've always wondered if, besides the exclusivity/making people return their guitars if they leave, if Kiesel has a great artist deal compared to competitors. Seems like every up and coming metal band always is endorsed by Kiesel if anyone (and I'm not counting Solar where they will endorse literally anyone, even all of us haha).


----------



## spudmunkey

The thing is...have you seen how many Andy James signature models they are pumping out? Every walk through, there's half a rack of them. Honestly it wouldn't surprise me if you told me that it was their top selling signature model, even if you combined all of the jason Becker models together.

They also get pretty direct feedback about the artist's potential customer base with their recent trend of "artist editions". Cole Roland, Sophie Lloyd have both had limited run special edition option packages (with Taj Farrant coming probably early next year). Those first two were barely mentioned by Kiesel anywhere in their social media, so the success of those limited models depended entirely on the endorsee's ability to convert subscriber count, view counts and "likes" into guitar sales.

The Al Joseph and Dan Sugarman versions received much more by-kiesel promotion, though, so it'll be interesting to see where those go, but both of those sold-out in just a couple of days.


----------



## NoodleFace

Lets behonest, I knew WHY they do it.. its to move numbers. I just hate everytime I look at the Kiesel instagram feed it's just girls with titties who do shitty vibrato and smile a lot


----------



## binz

You don't like those influencers and what they represent, fair enough, but no need to go all misogynistic..


----------



## CanserDYI

binz said:


> You don't like those influencers and what they represent, fair enough, but no need to go all misogynistic..


Actually I think they were being the opposite, they're upset that it feels Kiesel is trying to sell guitars by showing cleavage. Wondering how many men would watch if they were in turtle necks? Pretty sad.


----------



## NoodleFace

Yeah that's pretty much how I felt. I don't hate them because they're women, I was just curious who the creep at kiesel was. Assuming it's Jeff


----------



## Themistocles

NoodleFace said:


> Yeah that's pretty much how I felt. I don't hate them because they're women, I was just curious who the creep at kiesel was. Assuming it's Jeff


 i dont give it any thought. the fact that they are women playing guitar and promoting that activity is good enough for me and i am happy for them. tons of players i hate played guitars loved (cc deville played some gretch guitars) but i try not to balkanize gear.... holdsworth played carvin/kiesel and seem to like them too so im not gonna over think it. iesel is just a hungry small family owned company... they are gonna do what they can to get visibility because they dont have a dealer network. thus their visiblity comes from artists who dont get mega deals. still feel kiesel offers working musicians a great deal and more options for the buck. can begrudge another for visual appeal. more power to em...


----------



## danbox

I’m looking the look of this crescent and want to try out some similar combinations: https://reverb.com/item/46210227-kiesel-crescent-7-string-2021-black-raw-tone






Can you get an unpainted headstock like this on a multiscale? Can’t find it in the builder but not sure if I’m just missing it


----------



## spudmunkey

The builder has a specific and purposeful limitation: If a guitar has a top, they will only let you do a top-and-finish-matching headstock, or a headstock overlay to match the fretboard (except in the cases where they don't offer a headstock overlay veneer in the matching fretboard wood, like roasted maple). Anything outside of that, you'd need to call in. This model (the Crescent) automatically includes a plain maple top as standard, since it's a set-through neck construction, so it won't have an option for a natural neck wood headstock on the builder. They will do it, but it's off-menu and you'll need to call it in.


----------



## danbox

spudmunkey said:


> The builder has a specific and purposeful limitation: If a guitar has a top, they will only let you do a painted-to-match headstock, or a headstock to match the fretboard (except in the cases where they don't offer a headstock overlay veneer in the matching fretboard wood, like roasted maple). Anything outside of that, you'd need to call in. This model (the Crescent) automatically includes a plain maple top as standard, since it's a set-through neck construction, so it won't have an option for a natural neck wood headstock. on the builder. They will do it, but it's off-menu and you'll need to call it in.


Got it, thanks.

Now to find an Aries and crescent in person to see how they feel haha


----------



## Avedas

danbox said:


> Can you get an unpainted headstock like this on a multiscale? Can’t find it in the builder but not sure if I’m just missing it


Yeah you just have to ask for it, might not be in the builder. (oops I was late to reply)

Anyway, I've been thinking about this Retro Solo for a while but inspiration hasn't struck yet for a build. I don't want to just do a solid color but working around a pickguard is surprisingly difficult.


----------



## spudmunkey

I've mentioned it before (and suggested it to them), but I think the builder needs a "randomizer" feature, where it shuffles the spec cards, and gives you a randomized combination of specs. Sure it'd bring up a lot of crap, which could be fun on it's own, but I feel like it could come up with cool combinations i'd have never thought of...especially since I'm in a slump where I'm "building" the same 3-4 guitars over and over again.

I think one trick that sometimes works for me: start with a completely different model, like something with a big bevel, or a semi-hollow, or maybe the Hyperdrive or V220. Spec that out to how you'd like that model to look...then when you've got everything dialed in, switch the builder to the model you're really wanting, like the RS. It'll retain as many of the compatible specs as possible from that previous build, and you may find that you end up with specs you'd never have thought of for that model that work really well. 

I never would have thought of this for an RS, but I started with a Crescent, spec'd it out how I'd want a Crescent, then switched the builder to the RS.


----------



## laxu

The problem with a randomizer is that you can only have the randomizer pick valid combinations. So if it randomly picks a combination that isn't possible, it either has to default those, randomly pick the invalid parts again (which could conflict with something else, resulting in an endless loop) or randomize again until validation passes. Or it has to randomize in steps ensuring validity at each point.

It sounds like a trivial feature to add but is not necessarily so easy in practice.


----------



## olejason

haha Yeah just thinking through the logic required, it would be an interesting feature to implement but could be pretty complex.


----------



## spudmunkey

laxu said:


> The problem with a randomizer is that you can only have the randomizer pick valid combinations. So if it randomly picks a combination that isn't possible, it either has to default those, randomly pick the invalid parts again (which could conflict with something else, resulting in an endless loop) or randomize again until validation passes. Or it has to randomize in steps ensuring validity at each point.
> 
> It sounds like a trivial feature to add but is not necessarily so easy in practice.



You're correct. Especially with so many options that have real (and sometimes arbitrary) limitations.

Still, though.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

This might belong in the First World Problems thread but...

Keisel have made custom shop teles with all sorts of options available to the masses  But... I don't like the headstock


----------



## ArtDecade

_MonSTeR_ said:


> This might belong in the First World Problems thread but...
> 
> Keisel have made custom shop teles with all sorts of options available to the masses  But... I don't like the headstock



Ever considered a Fender?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

_MonSTeR_ said:


> This might belong in the First World Problems thread but...
> 
> Keisel have made custom shop teles with all sorts of options available to the masses  But... I don't like the headstock



Yeah, everyone seems to gripe about the body shapes, but I think the headstocks all bother me much more, that said, I don't think they're that bad. No worse than most others who make Strats and Teles and can't use the classic Fender stocks.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

ArtDecade said:


> Ever considered a Fender?



Yes, frequently. several times today already in fact  but the "for the masses" part, especially when I'm in the UK, is the price difference that we'd see ordering direct from Keisel vs speccing a similarly gaudy thing from Fender through my local Fender Custom Shop dealer...


----------



## ArtDecade

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Yes, frequently. several times today already in fact  but the "for the masses" part, especially when I'm in the UK, is the price difference that we'd see ordering direct from Keisel vs speccing a similarly gaudy thing from Fender through my local Fender Custom Shop dealer...



It just seems that Fender has released so many different types of Telecasters over the last 6 decades that there has to be something out there that is already close to what you are looking for.... yeah?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

ArtDecade said:


> It just seems that Fender has released so many different types of Telecasters over the last 6 decades that there has to be something out there that is already close to what you are looking for.... yeah?



With the used market still goofy and Fender having problems keeping inventory up, this seems like a good opportunity to try a different brand. 

It took me almost four months to get a new P-Bass, and someone tried to snatch it from under me, and used ones were actually more expensive.


----------



## Themistocles

ArtDecade said:


> It just seems that Fender has released so many different types of Telecasters over the last 6 decades that there has to be something out there that is already close to what you are looking for.... yeah?


hundreds of companies build classic teles and they are all a little different... apparently there is a market for small differences that seems inexhaustible... crowded though it is. kiesel's advantage is their price point and pent up curiosity... good for them.


----------



## Alberto7

spudmunkey said:


> You're correct. Especially with so many options that have real (and sometimes arbitrary) limitations.
> 
> Still, though.



To someone who knows what they're doing, web-development and programming wise, I can't imagine that task being too difficult. You can code in the limitations for a randomizer and it just won't ever pick those... or any of probably 100 different ways of doing that.

... of course, hiring someone that knows what they're doing is usually $$$$


----------



## danbox

Anyone looking at this Black Friday sale? Isn’t chambering usually $250 or so


----------



## spudmunkey

danbox said:


> Anyone looking at this Black Friday sale? Isn’t chambering usually $250 or so



I *think* it was $150, but do get it, you'd need to add a top, which I guess, depending on how you look at it, makes the cost of chambering of over $250 if you weren't already planning on getting a top.

It's not enough of a sale I think to draw in impulse buyers like in previous years, but if someone were wanting an ash body, were getting a top, wanted chambering and the raw tone satin finish, and the thin neck option, it's something like $300 in savings compared to two weeks ago, and more than that compared to after they officially end their "$100 in free options" promo they've been running for years.


----------



## RickF

Did anyone see the story yesterday, some client just ordered their 100th Kiesel, at like $5800 too. Boggles my mind.


----------



## spudmunkey

RickF said:


> Did anyone see the story yesterday, some client just ordered their 100th Kiesel, at like $5800 too. Boggles my mind.


 I have a feeling it got that high specifically because it was free. I also suspect he's been given lots of discounts/free upgrades on a lot of those builds. In yesterday's live, someome bought the "top of the hour" and Jeff recognized him and threw in a free option. He does that a lot. But, still...yeah...a 100 is still a lot, no doubt. 

On the BBS, half of the "Club" posts (like "multiscale owners' club" and "SCB model owners' club" threads) are probably his.

There was another guy years back on the Carvin BBS who was seemingly over-nighting 1-3 in-stocks a week, plus custom builds, for like 2 years, until he got bored with guitars and started getting more into firearms, and he dropped off of the face of the earth on the BBS.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> I have a feeling it got that high specifically because it was free. I also suspect he's been given lots of discounts/free upgrades on a lot of those builds. In yesterday's live, someome bought the "top of the hour" and Jeff recognized him and threw in a free option. He does that a lot. But, still...yeah...a 100 is still a lot, no doubt.
> 
> On the BBS, half of the "Club" posts (like "multiscale owners' club" and "SCB model owners' club" threads) are probably his.
> 
> There was another guy years back on the Carvin BBS who was seemingly over-nighting 1-3 in-stocks a week, plus custom builds, for like 2 years, until he got bored with guitars and started getting more into firearms, and he dropped off of the face of the earth on the BBS.


I remember that guy. He worked at eBay when they were starting out, and made a bunch of money, right? If I remember, he had a history of cancer, so hopefully he’s ok. I think his name was Rob?


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> I remember that guy. He worked at eBay when they were starting out, and made a bunch of money, right? If I remember, he had a history of cancer, so hopefully he’s ok. I think his name was Rob?



Yeah, Rob Lavine, Lavigne, Levine...his username on the Carvin bbs was rob_l. I dont know if I ever saw him say where his funding came from.

One of his last posts from 2009:

"Most all of you know I'm near 100 Carvins in my collection. But this one speaks worlds about the company and the people that MAKE IT!! [Carvin sent him an unexpected NS1 as a thank you gift]

And a few of you know that I have stage 2 bone cancer"

He seemed to dissappear in 2009 but popped in briefly in 2012, but then disappeared again.

Saw a post of his when he was talking about owning about 30 Carvins that his overall guitar collection was already "triple digits", so who knows how mamy he peaked at...

Edit: found a Facebook group post by Chris Hong basically saying when it was determined his cancer was likely terminal, he wanted to spend his money on things that made him happy...then, if I understand right, he beat it, and started collecting other things, like firearms and I think his GF collected vintage cameras.


----------



## SnowfaLL

I assumed it was Rob_L too.. being a frequenter of the bbs before the company name change. Hope he's doing well.


----------



## maliciousteve

Rob_L Sadly passed away in January 2018. Confirmed by some one on the JCFonline facebook group who knew him


----------



## spudmunkey

maliciousteve said:


> Rob_L Sadly passed away in January 2018. Confirmed by some one on the JCFonline facebook group who knew him



Aw, shit. I feel like I heard that, but just couldn't remember and didn't want to cause any unnecessary bummer. Thanks for confirming.


----------



## Hollowway

maliciousteve said:


> Rob_L Sadly passed away in January 2018. Confirmed by some one on the JCFonline facebook group who knew him


Damn. RIP to a fellow guitar lover.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

Rob had a great collection and was a good asset to that forum. RIP.


----------



## ScottThunes1960

Hollowway said:


> Damn. RIP to a fellow guitar lover.



At least he received the guitars he paid for.


----------



## Hollowway

ScottThunes1960 said:


> At least he received the guitars he paid for.


Meaning you did not receive a Kiesel you ordered, or do you mean that Kiesel consistently delivers, compared to other luthiers?


----------



## ScottThunes1960

Hollowway said:


> Meaning you did not receive a Kiesel you ordered, or do you mean that Kiesel consistently delivers, compared to other luthiers?



The latter. I was contrasting your luck with his.


----------



## Hollowway

ScottThunes1960 said:


> The latter. I was contrasting your luck with his.


 Good point. But, overall I’m lowering my never-got-it percent pretty well buy buying used, lol.


----------



## ScottThunes1960

Hollowway said:


> Good point. But, overall I’m lowering my never-got-it percent pretty well buy buying used, lol.



To your health.


----------



## spudmunkey

At 3PM, they are doing another "pick your top" session. $200 buckeye tops (normally $600) and 5A quilted maple tops for $300 (their normal 4A is $400).

The free ash body (with raw tone clear finish), free chambering (with the purchase of a top) and thin neck options are still free.


----------



## spudmunkey

The tops they have left:
L to R:
$300 Buckeye burl, $300 5a "chocolate" quilted maple, $300 flamed redwood, $700 "master grade" flamed koa


----------



## thrsher

i want that redwood but im just too broke


----------



## Giest

If you don't get flamed redwood under gloss you're wrong.


----------



## Themistocles

spudmunkey said:


> The tops they have left:
> L to R:
> $300 Buckeye burl, $300 5a "chocolate" quilted maple, $300 flamed redwood, $700 "master grade" flamed koa
> View attachment 100614


that royal ebony top and the redwoods were just awesome


----------



## spudmunkey

The flamed buckeye was pretty awesome. for Koa, I prefer more color variation in the grain/stripes (like what they've called "bacon" before, but when he put those koa tops closer to the camera and moved 'em around, they did have a really cool chatoyant shimmer...I hadn't seen much like that before. Not my favorite, but unique/cool. 

Of what they showed, I think the "chocolate" quilted maple was my favorite.


----------



## RadoncROCKs

It was so cringey to see people asking to put color on those tops. Shameful - why buy such a nice wood top to cover it up?


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

RadoncROCKs said:


> It was so cringey to see people asking to put color on those tops. Shameful - why buy such a nice wood top to cover it up?


Spend any amount of time looking at the abominations that some Kiesel customers dream up and it will all make sense.


----------



## BigViolin

Possible Dean Lamb model on the horizon.

Did I just scoop Spud?  Kinda funny cuz I have been really close to ordering an Aries 8 that is really close to what Dean is playing lately. Wonder if it will be any different?


----------



## spudmunkey

BigViolin said:


> Possible Dean Lamb model on the horizon.
> 
> Did I just scoop Spud?



Ha, probably! I don't actually follow any artists on social media (kiesel or otherwise) except Jason Becker, but I see the post on Dean's IG now that you mention it.




I'm more leaning towards one of those "limited artist editions" like the Sophie Lloyd, Cole Roland, Dan Sugarman, etc where it's effectively an options package with some artist-supplied goodies, rather than an on-going bespoke model.

Dan Jacob's sig Kiesel was "leaked" first in the band's then-newest music video. Are there any new Archspire videos that show a unique guitar? It could very well just be an 8-string satin black neck-through Aries with that angled pointy headstock.


----------



## BigViolin

He’s been playing the black satin pointies pretty much exclusively. Your second scenario is likely it. Glad I waited as any discounts might inform my choices.


----------



## spudmunkey

BigViolin said:


> He’s been playing the black satin pointies pretty much exclusively. Your second scenario is likely it. Glad I waited as any discounts might inform my choices.



From what I can tell, the discounts would come from the value of anything the artist kicks in. Photos, lessons, tabs, etc. Otherwise, at least at the TINIEST little bit of pricing I roughed-out, it seems like these aren't about savings like a "run". Guestimating the cost of the custom finish on the Sophie Lloyd, I think it worked out to basically a free case, if I remember right.


----------



## BigViolin

Yeah, not expecting much but figured worth the wait...my spec is pretty close to his minus the 5 piece neck.


----------



## danbox

BigViolin said:


> Yeah, not expecting much but figured worth the wait...my spec is pretty close to his minus the 5 piece neck.


I think I heard Dean say on stream that he was testing a 3 piece neck for a cheaper signature version


----------



## danbox

Yep 3 piece neck instead of his usual 5. Not sure if there is anything else different than his personal aries. I think his also doesn’t have a tone knob?


----------



## THEBOTTOMLINE

danbox said:


> Yep 3 piece neck instead of his usual 5. Not sure if there is anything else different than his personal aries. I think his also doesn’t have a tone knob?



He has 2 of them. One of them has a tone knob, the other one doesnt. Theres a pic of both of them on his instagram.


----------



## spudmunkey

Building one out on the builder, it's $2164 with the case (assuming it doesn't have Dunlop strap locks...with those it'd be $2194) . This artist edition is $2100 with case, and comes with a 1/2 hour Zoom lesson, tab download of "Bleed the Future" album, signed photo, a pack of Dean's signature picks, and "a shout-out in an upcoming YouTube video".
https://www.kieselguitars.com/dean-lamb

Available 12/15.


----------



## BigViolin

Cool offer for a fan that wants Dean's specs. Turns out my specs differ enough to not make it a deal for me but stoked for Dean.


----------



## Tree

Yeah, I was really confused when they first starting teasing the "sig" a while back. I had pieced together the same guitar at the same price as Spud when they implemented the tone knob delete in the builder, so I really just wasn't able to make sense of it. So, the only real differences from what I did before are the reverse headstock and now the three piece neck. 

Definitely cool if you like the extra swag and want a quick lesson with Dean. Otherwise it's pretty run of the mill for a Kiesel. But still tasteful.


----------



## spudmunkey

Yeah, other than the Al Joseph which had a unique body shape, and I guess the special purple finish on the Sophie Lloyd, these Artist Special Editions seems to be for fans. No "fan-sploitation" in terms of an upcharge, and it includes goodies a fan would want, so I don't think there's anything _wrong_ with it...just not much to pull in someone who isn't already a fan of the artist. And as I've noted before, Kiesel seems to let the Artist take the lead on marketing these, barely mentioning them on the official Kiesel channels like you'd think they would for a "limited edition" anything...and as it is, every one has sold out in a matter of days.

Sounds like the next one will be a Taj Ferrant Delos next year. It was originally going to be a purple Leia (to the point where a Shopify page was setup), but he's been playing the Delos much more)...that'll definitely have a completely different fan market than Dean Lamb. I bet the % of Dean's fans that play guitar is a lot higher than Taj's fanbase...especially ones that would spend ~$1500-ish for a guitar.


----------



## Themistocles

RadoncROCKs said:


> It was so cringey to see people asking to put color on those tops. Shameful - why buy such a nice wood top to cover it up?


it can work but rarely... cant put cool tones over warm ones and I think just a thin trans black or brown burst is all that is needed for koa. On my DC 747 I have Koa on the back but there was no clear natural option those days... It actually looks cool with emerald green... just not as good as it would have with no color. Koa just isnt something that needs enhancement.


----------



## Stiman

BigViolin said:


> Possible Dean Lamb model on the horizon.
> 
> Did I just scoop Spud?  Kinda funny cuz I have been really close to ordering an Aries 8 that is really close to what Dean is playing lately. Wonder if it will be any different?



So this was announced today, but I haven't seen a spec sheet, and it's not showing up on the builder app. Maybe I just haven't found it yet.

Edit: nvm, I saw the link further down the thread.


----------



## spudmunkey

Stiman said:


> So this was announced today, but I haven't seen a spec sheet, and it's not showing up on the builder app. Maybe I just haven't found it yet.
> 
> Edit: nvm, I saw the link further down the thread.


Even before the site redesign, the Artist Special Editions have always been on a separate, pared-down Shopify page,


----------



## NoodleFace

I'd actually buy that dean 8 string, I love the way it looks. I'm just not sure if I'd like 8 strings.


----------



## CanserDYI

I personally LOVE the things theyre including in artist guitars. Now just make an artist guitar for an artist I actually want these things from and we're set...

How cool would it be to buy a Silverburst and get to call up Adam Jones and shoot the shit with him...? A man can dream okay??


----------



## ian540s

I really like Dean and that guitar, but I watching the Kiesel livestream (first mistake) and Jeff literally said he would not discuss anything artist series related because it's their job to market the product and he's "not allowed". Dean is also throwing in so much extra free shit with that guitar and Kiesel is selling them for slightly less that normal build cost. 
Now I'm not keen on how guitar endorsements go, but they couldn't even mention their artist has a guitar coming out? Or a hard post on their instagram?
I keep going back to wanting a kiesel, since some do look fun to play, but Jeff seems like he does the absolute minimum for anybody that's not in his best interest. 
Even if on paper he's not doing anything wrong, his attitude toward the questions he gets asked is like he's so annoyed to be there and he just wants to talk about his cars.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

ian540s said:


> I really like Dean and that guitar, but I watching the Kiesel livestream (first mistake) and Jeff literally said he would not discuss anything artist series related because it's their job to market the product and he's "not allowed". Dean is also throwing in so much extra free shit with that guitar and Kiesel is selling them for slightly less that normal build cost.
> Now I'm not keen on how guitar endorsements go, but they couldn't even mention their artist has a guitar coming out? Or a hard post on their instagram?
> I keep going back to wanting a kiesel, since some do look fun to play, but Jeff seems like he does the absolute minimum for anybody that's not in his best interest.
> Even if on paper he's not doing anything wrong, his attitude toward the questions he gets asked is like he's so annoyed to be there and he just wants to talk about his cars.


Jeff is a grade A douche, he comes off to me like some dumb spoiled rich kid. But all grown up. That said, if he wasn’t such a weasel I probably would’ve bought a Kiesel or two by now. I loved my Carvins so I have no doubts he makes a fine product, but he really shouldn’t be the one leading the companies social media.


----------



## Hollowway

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> Jeff is a grade A douche, he comes off to me like some dumb spoiled rich kid. But all grown up. That said, if he wasn’t such a weasel I probably would’ve bought a Kiesel or two by now. I loved my Carvins so I have no doubts he makes a fine product, but he really shouldn’t be the one leading the companies social media.


Yeah, my guess is that he grew up around the company, and then took over based on birthright, and kind of feels entitled. You see many CEOs who started a business being super focused on the customer, because they remember the lean days, and how hard it was to get those customers. Jeff didn’t have to do that - he took over a well respect, very successful business. One nice thing about his high confidence in the success of the business is that he’s more willing to rock the boat and take chances with crazy models and options. But the obvious downside is that he hasn’t got the respect for his customers that he would have if he’d had to build it up from scratch, and fight for every customer, and the worry that maybe things could come crashing down.


----------



## spudmunkey

ian540s said:


> I really like Dean and that guitar, but I watching the Kiesel livestream (first mistake) and Jeff literally said he would not discuss anything artist series related because it's their job to market the product and he's "not allowed". Dean is also throwing in so much extra free shit with that guitar and Kiesel is selling them for slightly less that normal build cost.
> Now I'm not keen on how guitar endorsements go, but they couldn't even mention their artist has a guitar coming out? Or a hard post on their instagram?
> I keep going back to wanting a kiesel, since some do look fun to play, but Jeff seems like he does the absolute minimum for anybody that's not in his best interest.
> Even if on paper he's not doing anything wrong, his attitude toward the questions he gets asked is like he's so annoyed to be there and he just wants to talk about his cars.



I always *thought* these artist editions were being handled in a unique way, where Kiesel takes a hands-off approach to their marketing, and leaves it all up to the artist...but that was just a hunch I had. Even the way the sale pages were set up on a completely different website, with no links to it from the Kiesel webpage. Of course was confirmed in the last Q&Awhen someone asked if Dean's artist edition could come as a neck-through, and Jeff answered that question (no, because Dean's model is a Bolt-on). Then someone asked another question, whether the Artist series guitar was different from a "signature" guitar, and jeff answered:
"So, we're not gonna do Artist Series questions in here, so you guys reading them (pointing to Jesse and Zak behind the camera), *part of the artist series is they're responsible for promoting themselves. So, I can't do any of the promoting for them*. So that's a good question for Dean, and _not_ for me."

I suspect it's one of a couple of things:
1) this is a trial run for the artist themselves to see if they alone have the influence over a large enough guitar-buying fan base, where it could translate into sales of an actual potential future signature model.
2) it's really a partnership with the artist and it's intended for the artists' fans first, and since it's limited time or quantity, they really want to try to make sure every actual fan who wants one gets one rather than just random impulse buyers or people who'll buy them to flip them.
3) the artist maybe gets a slightly larger portion of the sale, with the agreement that Kiesel spends zero resources on marketing it, since they see less of a return on each sale, so as not to get into a slippery slope of taking time away from things like answering other customers' questions in a Q&A, etc. and/or be seen as spending more resources marketing one artist's over another.

I'm sure there are other possibilities, but these were three that popped into my head, ranked in likelihood....but, "Whoa, Jeff won't promote an artists new model? It must be because he's a douche" is a weird take away from that part of the video, IMO.  Especially since this is the 5th one like this now, and they've all been treated basically the same: Cole Roland, Sophie Lloyd, Al Joseph, Dan Sugarman, and now Dean Lamb. Even with as closely as I follow Kiesel, I never even knew the Sophie Lloyd one was a thing until it was over, and someone posted their order details in the FB group. Taj Ferrant's getting one next year, and I expect his will likely be a similar scenario.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

@spudmunkey Always coming through with the details on Kiesel.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> I always *thought* these artist editions were being handled in a unique way, where Kiesel takes a hands-off approach to their marketing, and leaves it all up to the artist...but that was just a hunch I had. Even the way the sale pages were set up on a completely different website, with no links to it from the Kiesel webpage. Of course was confirmed in the last Q&Awhen someone asked if Dean's artist edition could come as a neck-through, and Jeff answered that question (no, because Dean's model is a Bolt-on). Then someone asked another question, whether the Artist series guitar was different from a "signature" guitar, and jeff answered:
> "So, we're not gonna do Artist Series questions in here, so you guys reading them (pointing to Jesse and Zak behind the camera), *part of the artist series is they're responsible for promoting themselves. So, I can't do any of the promoting for them*. So that's a good question for Dean, and _not_ for me."
> 
> I suspect it's one of a couple of things:
> 1) this is a trial run for the artist themselves to see if they alone have the influence over a large enough guitar-buying fan base, where it could translate into sales of an actual potential future signature model.
> 2) it's really a partnership with the artist and it's intended for the artists' fans first, and since it's limited time or quantity, they really want to try to make sure every actual fan who wants one gets one rather than just random impulse buyers or people who'll buy them to flip them.
> 3) the artist maybe gets a slightly larger portion of the sale, with the agreement that Kiesel spends zero resources on marketing it, since they see less of a return on each sale, so as not to get into a slippery slope of taking time away from things like answering other customers' questions in a Q&A, etc. and/or be seen as spending more resources marketing one artist's over another.
> 
> I'm sure there are other possibilities, but these were three that popped into my head, ranked in likelihood....but, "Whoa, Jeff won't promote an artists new model? It must be because he's a douche" is a weird take away from that part of the video, IMO.  Especially since this is the 5th one like this now, and they've all been treated basically the same: Cole Roland, Sophie Lloyd, Al Joseph, Dan Sugarman, and now Dean Lamb. Even with as closely as I follow Kiesel, I never even knew the Sophie Lloyd one was a thing until it was over, and someone posted their order details in the FB group. Taj Ferrant's getting one next year, and I expect his will likely be a similar scenario.


My take away from that Q and A is that the question was about what the difference was between an Artist Series and a Signature guitar, which would seem like it would be best answered by Kiesel, not Dean. Dean is only going to know about his particular guitar and or deal, and wouldn’t be able to really answer the question, no? It didn’t strike me as a question about promoting Dean, just a question about the guitars, or the arrangements between Kiesel and the various artists.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> My take away from that Q and A is that the question was about what the difference was between an Artist Series and a Signature guitar, which would seem like it would be best answered by Kiesel, not Dean. Dean is only going to know about his particular guitar and or deal, and wouldn’t be able to really answer the question, no? It didn’t strike me as a question about promoting Dean, just a question about the guitars, or the arrangements between Kiesel and the various artists.



Very true. You can tell as soon as he heard the first few words though, he started winding up to already answer before the question was fully out, and just stuck with the answer he already prepared. I'd chalk it up to him just hearing a second question related to the artist edition, getting his answer ready, but not wanting to cut-off Jesse or Zak (I forgot who asked the question) and missed the specifics of the actual question while thinking of the reply.

I think he gets in his own head sometimes, too, when it comes to some questions, and sometimes misses what a person might actually be asking if they didn't word something accurately according to Kiesel's verbiage. Like...this isn't a specific example, but illustrates what I'm talking about: someone might ask "I saw a guitar with a pale moon ebony neck, and loved it. How can I get that?" and he might reply with something like "We don't offer pale moon ebony necks, sorry" without considering that maybe the person meant _fretboard_ and not neck. Or said "body wood" when they meant "top wood" or something. Again, it's not a specific example, just a metaphor because I do think he's catch those...I just had to get up early today and can't think of the specific examples I do hear all the time when watching the livestreams.


----------



## bigcupholder

spudmunkey said:


> Very true. You can tell as soon as he heard the first few words though, he started winding up to already answer before the question was fully out, and just stuck with the answer he already prepared. I'd chalk it up to him just hearing a second question related to the artist edition, getting his answer ready, but not wanting to cut-off Jesse or Zak (I forgot who asked the question) and missed the specifics of the actual question while thinking of the reply.
> 
> I think he gets in his own head sometimes, too, when it comes to some questions, and sometimes misses what a person might actually be asking if they didn't word something accurately according to Kiesel's verbiage. Like...this isn't a specific example, but illustrates what I'm talking about: someone might ask "I saw a guitar with a pale moon ebony neck, and loved it. How can I get that?" and he might reply with something like "We don't offer pale moon ebony necks, sorry" without considering that maybe the person meant _fretboard_ and not neck. Or said "body wood" when they meant "top wood" or something. Again, it's not a specific example, just a metaphor because I do think he's catch those...I just had to get up early today and can't think of the specific examples I do hear all the time when watching the livestreams.


Yeah, it's understandable given the pace of the questions that the odd one gets missed. I sent in a question one time that was along the lines of "what is the charge for choosing the lightest piece of wood and how light could I reasonably get this model?" And he answered "yeah we can do that".

I'm not someone who gushes over every little thing they do, but I give them credit for doing a live Q&A with the head of the company on almost a weekly basis. Not many guitar companies do that.


----------



## spudmunkey

This sort of aesthetic isn't normally my thing, but...


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> This sort of aesthetic isn't normally my thing, but...
> 
> View attachment 100762


Dang, that is nice. Not my thing either, usually, in that I wouldn't have specced it out for myself, but that is very well put together.


----------



## NoodleFace

Whoever got that bright red Aries that was on Facebook I hate you


----------



## Samark

spudmunkey said:


> This sort of aesthetic isn't normally my thing, but...
> 
> View attachment 100762



Is that painted binding? I wonder if Kiesel will eventually jump on the bound fretboard wagon. They seem to do everything except for that


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Samark said:


> Is that painted binding? I wonder if Kiesel will eventually jump on the bound fretboard wagon. They seem to do everything except for that



Nah, too much work. They don't even bind the bodies.


----------



## Samark

MaxOfMetal said:


> Nah, too much work. They don't even bind the bodies.


 Ah ok, I thought they bound some of their semi-hollow/acoustic guitars. They were flat top though so probably much easier. Cheers Maximus


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Samark said:


> Ah ok, I thought they bound some of their semi-hollow/acoustic guitars. They were flat top though so probably much easier. Cheers Maximus



They've done it on a super limited basis for extra special builds for long time customers, but it's never been a regular option, and never on the necks.


----------



## manu80

Hi here! Any owners of the Carvin/kiesel Jason Becker's Numbers model could tell me more about it ? Neck profile, feelings etc? I saw one in Europe and am curious about it. Not as classy as the blue one but original , still. Thx in advance


----------



## spudmunkey

Samark said:


> Is that painted binding? I wonder if Kiesel will eventually jump on the bound fretboard wagon. They seem to do everything except for that



Yes, it's painting binding (unless it's just the bare edge of a plain maple top with the exposure cranked way up on the photo...but I do think this is their "white painted binding" optiopn.


----------



## spudmunkey

manu80 said:


> Hi here! Any owners of the Carvin/kiesel Jason Becker's Numbers model could tell me more about it ? Neck profile, feelings etc? I saw one in Europe and am curious about it. Not as classy as the blue one but original , still. Thx in advance



I know it doesn't tell you very much, but of all of the models Kiesel offers, the ones that pop up most often as a person's favorite when they own multiple, it's probably a tie between the Vader, the JB200C, and the JB Numbers.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

manu80 said:


> Hi here! Any owners of the Carvin/kiesel Jason Becker's Numbers model could tell me more about it ? Neck profile, feelings etc? I saw one in Europe and am curious about it. Not as classy as the blue one but original , still. Thx in advance



I've played a couple. If I had to compare the neck to anything, it's a dead ringer to 90's Charvels, not stupid thin, but it feels pretty thin. 

Really cool guitars, and the only reason I don't have one is I'm not really a 6-string shred guitar guy.


----------



## spudmunkey

If they came out with a limited run of the Numbers guitar but with black numbers, black & white pickups, and maybe the antique ash finish, I'd have a reeeeeeally hard time not ordering one...even though I currently have less than zero disposable income.


----------



## Hollowway

manu80 said:


> Hi here! Any owners of the Carvin/kiesel Jason Becker's Numbers model could tell me more about it ? Neck profile, feelings etc? I saw one in Europe and am curious about it. Not as classy as the blue one but original , still. Thx in advance


Yeah, I have one that I bought used. The owner swapped out the bridge pickup, so eventually I'll put a stock one back in. I love it. As with Max, I'm not really a 6 string shred guy, so it doesn't get as much play as it should. But I just remember seeing it for the first time and just loving it, and always wanting one. I think it's super cool that Carvin/Kiesel did one, and I just had to have one. 

@spudmunkey I'd buy a black Numbers guitar, as well! I also wish they'd do a 7 string variant of it. I know Jason didn't play 7s, but they do mess around with artist sigs from time to time (like the Vader Numbers, painted Numbers, the Holdsworth sig variations, etc.) so I think it would be cool if they did one like that. 

In fact, those that know my KxK 8 Scale might remember that I had the inlays done as Japanese kanji characters for the fret numbers, as an homage to Jason's guitar. (It's Japanese, because I'm a typical white guy.  But same idea.)


----------



## manu80

Thx for your feedback guys  @Hollowway, I'm sending you a pm for 1/2 questions if you don't mind. thx


----------



## CanserDYI

@spudmunkey I cant access the BBS now, did they take it down??


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

NoodleFace said:


> Whoever got that bright red Aries that was on Facebook I hate you
> 
> View attachment 100785


I tried to buy it. But the seller claimed he was waiting on a local deal and never got back to me.


----------



## spudmunkey

CanserDYI said:


> @spudmunkey I cant access the BBS now, did they take it down??



It's still working for me. Are you sure you're going to the https version of the site and not the http?

https://www.kieselguitarsbbs.com/

I'm positive it'll only last until someone gets a bill for it , and someone with some decision-making power is reminded that it still exists.  Only me and one other user are in the "10,000+ post club", but I suspect it'll be closed before I can crack 20,000 (830 posts to go...)


----------



## Masoo2

These builds got me feeling some kind of way...












Any thoughts on this as a first Kiesel? Zeus 7, black limba body, solid maple neck, ebony board, Holdsworth HSS (imagine the bridge pickup with a brushed chrome cover), trem with piezo saddles. I'll be overseas for the next few years and would like a single guitar to take with me. 99% of the time I'm in Drop A anyways so 7 strings would be a better option than the 6 and 8 I currently own, and having a piezo would give me "good enough" acoustic tones.






$2089 for that doesn't seem too bad at all, I was expected a lot worse. I'd mostly been looking into Leias before due to their smaller body and forearm contour, but the added cost + lack of HSS/piezo options (at least on the builder) has me considering a Zeus instead.

Though to be fair, a Leia similarly specced isn't much _that _more and if I'm able to get HSS and piezo saddles without option 50...


----------



## CanserDYI

Masoo2 said:


> These builds got me feeling some kind of way...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any thoughts on this as a first Kiesel? Zeus 7, black limba body, solid maple neck, ebony board, HSS (imagine the bridge pickup with a brushed chrome cover), trem with piezo saddles. I'll be overseas for the next few years and would like a single guitar to take with me. 99% of the time I'm in Drop A anyways so 7 strings would be a better option than the 6 and 8 I currently own, and having a piezo would give me "good enough" acoustic tones.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> $2089 for that doesn't seem too bad at all, I was expected a lot worse. I'd mostly been looking into Leias before due to their smaller body and forearm contour, but the added cost + lack of HSS/piezo options (at least on the builder) has me considering a Zeus instead.
> 
> Though to be fair, a Leia similarly specced isn't much _that _more and if I'm able to get HSS and piezo saddles without option 50...


Both sick, pretty sure HSS on the Leia will be option 50, though. I personally would go with the Zeus as its bolt on and I have an irrational fear of neck thrus lol.


----------



## Masoo2

CanserDYI said:


> Both sick, pretty sure HSS on the Leia will be option 50, though. I personally would go with the Zeus as its bolt on and I have an irrational fear of neck thrus lol.


Yeah I have nothing against bolt ons, I'm just normally a fan of more aggressive forearm contours but the Zeus doesn't seem *that* bad.

This is David Maxim Micic's:





Really making me consider a maple board...very clean look.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Masoo2 said:


> These builds got me feeling some kind of way...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any thoughts on this as a first Kiesel? Zeus 7, black limba body, solid maple neck, ebony board, Holdsworth HSS (imagine the bridge pickup with a brushed chrome cover), trem with piezo saddles. I'll be overseas for the next few years and would like a single guitar to take with me. 99% of the time I'm in Drop A anyways so 7 strings would be a better option than the 6 and 8 I currently own, and having a piezo would give me "good enough" acoustic tones.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> $2089 for that doesn't seem too bad at all, I was expected a lot worse. I'd mostly been looking into Leias before due to their smaller body and forearm contour, but the added cost + lack of HSS/piezo options (at least on the builder) has me considering a Zeus instead.
> 
> Though to be fair, a Leia similarly specced isn't much _that _more and if I'm able to get HSS and piezo saddles without option 50...



Black limba is best limba. For real. Great taste duder.


----------



## CanserDYI

I really dig orange streaks but if youre into them, I'd wait. Jeff said he's all out and all his Black Limba right now is streakless.

EDIT: I'll edit and say all his black limba has no ORANGE streaks, still brown and black...


----------



## KnightBrolaire

CanserDYI said:


> I really dig orange streaks but if youre into them, I'd wait. Jeff said he's all out and all his Black Limba right now is streakless.


streakless limba is just regular korina/limba lmao 
The streaks are what make it black limba


----------



## CanserDYI

KnightBrolaire said:


> streakless limba is just regular korina/limba lmao
> The streaks are what make it black limba


I mean the orange streaks you see in Black limba sometimes, i'll find a picture.


----------



## CanserDYI

This is the streaking I was talking about @KnightBrolaire


----------



## MaxOfMetal

CanserDYI said:


> I mean the orange streaks you see in Black limba sometimes, i'll find a picture.



That's what he's saying, all limba is the same, it's the mineral deposits that cause more pronounced streaking, be it orange/red or black, to be called "black limba". 

For a long time, the more "pure" and uniform stuff was more sought after as it basically looks like pale mahogany, but now things have sort of flipped.


----------



## CanserDYI

MaxOfMetal said:


> That's what he's saying, all limba is the same, it's the mineral deposits that cause more pronounced streaking, be it orange/red or black, to be called "black limba".
> 
> For a long time, the more "pure" and uniform stuff was more sought after as it basically looks like pale mahogany, but now things have sort of flipped.


All I'm saying is that Jeff specifically said in a recent livestream that none of his black limba has any orange streaks. It'll just be the regular look like you see in Masoo's post above. There will be black streaking, but none of the big orange splotches that he charges extra for.\

The photo below shows black limba with zero orange. This is what I mean.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

CanserDYI said:


> This is the streaking I was talking about @KnightBrolaire


Yeah I am very familiar with the different colors of streaks that limba can get. I have multiple guitars made of black limba and stacks of black limba boards that I'm using for personal builds. My knightro 8 string explorer has black and orange streaks in it, and it's flamed. 
My point about calling it streakless being laughable is that the mineral deposits are what make black limba, regardless of color of streak.


----------



## CanserDYI

Im just a little confused as why yall kinda jumped on the train to tell me I'm wrong...when I'm not? That is indeed black Limba in the picture I showed, without orange streaks, which is what Jeff is saying, its black limba and there are no orange streaks in his stock...

No harm done but I even said in my post " ORANGE streaks..."


CanserDYI said:


> I really dig orange streaks but if youre into them, I'd wait....


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I guess I just read it as "no streaks". My bad.

Sorry if it seemed like I was jumping on you. That was not my intention.


----------



## Stiman

CanserDYI said:


> Im just a little confused as why yall kinda jumped on the train to tell me I'm wrong...when I'm not? That is indeed black Limba in the picture I showed, without orange streaks, which is what Jeff is saying, its black limba and there are no orange streaks in his stock...
> 
> No harm done but I even said in my post " ORANGE streaks..."



No good deed goes unpunished!


----------



## KnightBrolaire

CanserDYI said:


> Im just a little confused as why yall kinda jumped on the train to tell me I'm wrong...when I'm not? That is indeed black Limba in the picture I showed, without orange streaks, which is what Jeff is saying, its black limba and there are no orange streaks in his stock...
> 
> No harm done but I even said in my post " ORANGE streaks..."


my bad. I was skimming and saw black limba and then streakless. I should have read more closely lol


----------



## CanserDYI

All good fellas. Still kinda salty I didnt go with a limba natback on my last build, I went mahogany as I wanted some non maple chatoyance and got some in spades, but really think I would have enjoyed a limba back more.


----------



## Masoo2

took to photoshop, I'm preferring the ebony board in the builder but obviously from pictures of real builds I'm preferring maple 99%











ok ok hear me out:

one of those above

*but with the crescent 12th fret inlay
*
thoughts?

edit: hear ya on the orange streaks, definitely not a fan so it's all good with me haha


----------



## CanserDYI

Not going to lie, really dug the maple board until I saw the second one, now the maple board looks odd. Whats the neck wood going to be? Personally I'd pair royal ebony with Walnut, it goes soooo well together.


----------



## Masoo2

CanserDYI said:


> Not going to lie, really dug the maple board until I saw the second one, now the maple board looks odd. Whats the neck wood going to be? Personally I'd pair royal ebony with Walnut, it goes soooo well together.


I think part of the problem is rooted in the single coils...the maple board looks fantastic with dual covered humbuckers but adding the singles and it changes everything.

Planning just one piece maple for the neck to keep things simple and semi-affordable, but if there's any reason to be convinced otherwise...


----------



## CanserDYI

Masoo2 said:


> I think part of the problem is rooted in the single coils...the maple board looks fantastic with dual covered humbuckers but adding the singles and it changes everything.
> 
> Planning just one piece maple for the neck to keep things simple and semi-affordable, but if there's any reason to be convinced otherwise...


Try white covers on the singles?


----------



## Masoo2

CanserDYI said:


> Try white covers on the singles?


hrmmm












edit: dang didn't even consider black logo vs white logo either


----------



## CanserDYI

Masoo2 said:


> hrmmm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edit: dang didn't even consider black logo vs white logo either


Yep, the white really made that look better. But if you look in my avatar, i like white pups


----------



## spudmunkey

I do not believe the Leia is available with the piezo, nor active pickups...nothing with a battery compartment. I wonder if there's just a tiny bit less room for it on the leia?




CanserDYI said:


> Yep, the white really made that look better. But if you look in my avatar, i like white pups



Yo, did somebody mention Kiesels with white pickups?


----------



## Hollowway

FWIW, those orange streaks are actually bug paths. That’s what luthier Shad Peters told me. He was doing a build for me and I wanted limba with those. (But his shop burned down, so the build was never completed.)


----------



## ScottThunes1960

Hollowway said:


> his shop burned down, so the build was never completed.



Did you, by chance, happen to decline purchasing magic powder from a gypsy that you were then supposed to place under your pillow?


----------



## Seabeast2000

ScottThunes1960 said:


> Did you, by chance, happen to decline purchasing magic powder from a gypsy that you were then supposed to place under your pillow?


----------



## Masoo2

Odd question for anyone with a Zeus/Osiris (preferably seven string straight scale):

Could you measure this distance for me? From the edge of the body to where the string breaks over the saddle.






As I've started to develop wrist issues over the last few months, I've realized that the guitars I've had with shorter distances between the saddle break and edge of body tend to give my right hand less pain. Conversely, I now have to play guitars with large distances (think Jazzmaster) and hard edges (think ESP Horizon) with a wrist/arm brace.

Curious to know how the Zeus measures out and if I'm just going to have to settle for a Leia (bridge touches edge of body) even if I can't get HSS and piezo saddles.


----------



## Mathemagician

Masoo2 said:


> These builds got me feeling some kind of way...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any thoughts on this as a first Kiesel? Zeus 7, black limba body, solid maple neck, ebony board, Holdsworth HSS (imagine the bridge pickup with a brushed chrome cover), trem with piezo saddles. I'll be overseas for the next few years and would like a single guitar to take with me. 99% of the time I'm in Drop A anyways so 7 strings would be a better option than the 6 and 8 I currently own, and having a piezo would give me "good enough" acoustic tones.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> $2089 for that doesn't seem too bad at all, I was expected a lot worse. I'd mostly been looking into Leias before due to their smaller body and forearm contour, but the added cost + lack of HSS/piezo options (at least on the builder) has me considering a Zeus instead.
> 
> Though to be fair, a Leia similarly specced isn't much _that _more and if I'm able to get HSS and piezo saddles without option 50...



Man I wish this model came in neckthrough. It’s probably one of my favorite headless shapes tbh.


----------



## spudmunkey

A first time for everything, I guess. I've never played a HHH guitar before, so I have no idea if HHS would be any more useful than HHS.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> A first time for everything, I guess. I've never played a HHH guitar before, so I have no idea if HHS would be any more useful than HHS.


_Stephen Carpenter has entered the chat._


----------



## Empryrean

Masoo2 said:


> Yeah I have nothing against bolt ons, I'm just normally a fan of more aggressive forearm contours but the Zeus doesn't seem *that* bad.
> 
> This is David Maxim Micic's:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really making me consider a maple board...very clean look.



god every time I see a Zeus with nice black limba I’m immediately on the fence about ordering one but then I remember some of the highly underwhelming black limba examples I’ve seen and really don’t want to be stuck with an ugly guitar


----------



## spudmunkey

Empryrean said:


> god every time I see a Zeus with nice black limba I’m immediately on the fence about ordering one but then I remember some of the highly underwhelming black limba examples I’ve seen and really don’t want to be stuck with an ugly guitar



If you're hoping for orange streaks, hold off as they don't have any on-hand right now. You can normally pay an upcharge for them to specifically pick a piece with orange, but I think it was last week when they said they didn't have any.

Edit: oh, no wonder why this felt familiar...we just had this discussion above.


----------



## Themistocles

Masoo2 said:


> These builds got me feeling some kind of way...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any thoughts on this as a first Kiesel? Zeus 7, black limba body, solid maple neck, ebony board, Holdsworth HSS (imagine the bridge pickup with a brushed chrome cover), trem with piezo saddles. I'll be overseas for the next few years and would like a single guitar to take with me. 99% of the time I'm in Drop A anyways so 7 strings would be a better option than the 6 and 8 I currently own, and having a piezo would give me "good enough" acoustic tones.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> $2089 for that doesn't seem too bad at all, I was expected a lot worse. I'd mostly been looking into Leias before due to their smaller body and forearm contour, but the added cost + lack of HSS/piezo options (at least on the builder) has me considering a Zeus instead.
> 
> Though to be fair, a Leia similarly specced isn't much _that _more and if I'm able to get HSS and piezo saddles without option 50...


agreed Kiesel does black limba really well... I probably wont get mine before christmas... february is likely but I cant wait to see all the black limba on mine. Do the limba!


----------



## Themistocles

Masoo2 said:


> I think part of the problem is rooted in the single coils...the maple board looks fantastic with dual covered humbuckers but adding the singles and it changes everything.
> 
> Planning just one piece maple for the neck to keep things simple and semi-affordable, but if there's any reason to be convinced otherwise...


lately I havent seen a single black limba example that didnt give me pause... I think their stock is good right now.. I dont really care about the orange so much but the inky mineral streaks... yes.

Also you can get it rawtone


----------



## spudmunkey

Well, that's interesting...


----------



## NoodleFace

That shit makes no sense or my brain is too smooth


----------



## Seabeast2000

How much would a luthier charge to finish the job?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Fuck yeah! What an awesome builder that would rather ship a non-functional bass than do some pickup routes. Hot diggity dog! 

I'm half kidding, the customer seems stoked, so that's all that really matters.

But really, what was the up charge for this? I remember back in the day it was ~$200 to omit a single pickup.


----------



## IwantTacos

i mean I get it....
I told the builder the for my last two guitars that I would just do all the pickup wiring myself because it would be a clusterfuck.
if the customer is willing to route it himself than no worries.

I actually wish more builders would just do this.


----------



## IwantTacos

spudmunkey said:


> A first time for everything, I guess. I've never played a HHH guitar before, so I have no idea if HHS would be any more useful than HHS.



I am half erect. If that guitar was ss ss h I would be fully erect.


----------



## Hollowway

Wait, unless I’m really misunderstanding the process, I thought routing through paint and a clear coat was a dangerous undertaking. Isn’t that almost guaranteeing a chipped finish around the routes?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Hollowway said:


> Wait, unless I’m really misunderstanding the process, I thought routing through paint and a clear coat was a dangerous undertaking. Isn’t that almost guaranteeing a chipped finish around the routes?



Not at all. You just have to do your due diligence and not get sloppy.

Tape everything off, score the outside, use a nice sharp bit, go just fast enough and don't stop unless you have to.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> Fuck yeah! What an awesome builder that would rather ship a non-functional bass than do some pickup routes. Hot diggity dog!
> 
> I'm half kidding, the customer seems stoked, so that's all that really matters.
> 
> But really, what was the up charge for this? I remember back in the day it was ~$200 to omit a single pickup.



Pickup delete's been $50 for a while, as were simple "custom controls" or "tone knob delete".

I suspect that he most likely didn't want to commit to a final layout and positioning until he had the bass in his hands, and could actually figure out where exactly he wanted everything. 

He's trying to emulate these controls from a G&L bass, but I'm not sure what pickups he's going with. Kiesel's absolutely done control layouts for people with different bass preamps. But if you've got a good luthier who's willing to drill holes for cheap (because it's not a hard thing to do, but so many charge a buttload), it might just be cheaper for him to take care of it rather than have Kiesel charge for their time to lay it all out. Also, it's possible that when he gets the bass and starts placing the controls, he may find that the control cavity is too tight in one spot and he might want to shift those two bottom controls over and give the top 4 some more room. NOT having Kiesel just place the controls where they think they should go might be the better way to do it. I'm just speculating here, though.


----------



## HungryGuitarStudent

Probably an old question answered somewhere else, but where did the Kiesel guitar gallery go? Can't find it since they switched to the new website. It was a pretty useful tool for inspiration for new builds.

EDIT: nevermind, found a way to roll back to the old website via OldWeb.


----------



## spudmunkey

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> Probably an old question answered somewhere else, but where did the Kiesel guitar gallery go? Can't find it since they switched to the new website. It was a pretty useful tool for inspiration for new builds.
> 
> EDIT: nevermind, found a way to roll back to the old website via OldWeb.



The idea is that the builder replaces the gallery for those who used it to see what certain options or option combinations may look like. But for those who want inspiration, they now direct people to Facebook and Instagram.

Alternatively, there's this, which is almost all of the gallery images, in much higher res, but it's not searchable/filterable and there's no specs listed. http://gisarchive.carvinguitars.com/


----------



## soliloquy

Hollowway said:


> Wait, unless I’m really misunderstanding the process, I thought routing through paint and a clear coat was a dangerous undertaking. Isn’t that almost guaranteeing a chipped finish around the routes?



Exactly as MaxOfMetal up above mentioned, due diligence! tape everything, and go SUPER slow with sharp bits. 
It does seem scary, not going to lie, but you get the hang of it really quickly. I learned the hard way by drilling pickup rings into one of my guitars. No such thing as too much prep.


----------



## lurè

spudmunkey said:


> Well, that's interesting...
> View attachment 101124



If 2021 was a bass


----------



## BigViolin

Has painted headstock to match body always been an up charge or is that just new with the builder and site changes?


----------



## spudmunkey

BigViolin said:


> Has painted headstock to match body always been an up charge or is that just new with the builder and site changes?



They've completely re-jiggered headstocks with the builder. Are you looking at a Bolt-on? I believe it's standard on non-bolt-ons, and optional add-on on bolt-ons.


----------



## BigViolin

I was looking at a bolt on...makes sense now. Unrelated, but kinda surprised not to see much uproar about the $100 in options going away.


----------



## CanserDYI

@spudmunkey did you notice they use the Bass Vanquish body in the builder selector screen? Wondering if this was a mistake on the builder "builder" or if Jeff just said screw it, use the bass image.


----------



## spudmunkey

CanserDYI said:


> @spudmunkey did you notice they use the Bass Vanquish body in the builder selector screen? Wondering if this was a mistake on the builder "builder" or if Jeff just said screw it, use the bass image.



Ha, no, I didn't. I know that wasnt' the case before they added the shading for the bevels. I was the one who suggesting showing the pickguard for the models that have them (they were already showing f holes and sound holes), and I dig that they also added the bevels. I bet they were doing them in batches with the bass icons, and the developer didn't realize they weren't straight duplicates. The Zeus one looks right for the guitar, though, so at least they caught that difference.


----------



## spudmunkey

CanserDYI said:


> @spudmunkey did you notice they use the Bass Vanquish body in the builder selector screen? Wondering if this was a mistake on the builder "builder" or if Jeff just said screw it, use the bass image.


I actually had a few more bugs I wanted to let them know about, so I added the Vanquish icon to the list. Most of the other ones weere about headstock oddities, and your Vanqiosh icon info made me notice the Zeus one is pretty big compared to the nearly identical Osiris icon right next to it...it's the right shape, but huge within its little circle button...




And for those who might have been wishing for this finish to come back, Rainbow sparkle is back, and this time it's not just a run of 20 pre-built in-stocks. It's on the online builder, and you can pick your own specs, and the finish is the same price as their normal sparkle finishes (they say they'd normally charge $800 for it, but I'm not sure they've ever actually offered the rainbow sparkle outside of some sort of discounted run...


----------



## troyguitar

spudmunkey said:


> And for those who might have been wishing for this finish to come back, Rainbow sparkle is back, and this time it's not just a run of 20 pre-built in-stocks. It's on the online builder, and you can pick your own specs, and the finish is the same price as their normal sparkle finishes (they say they'd normally charge $800 for it, but I'm not sure they've ever actually offered the rainbow sparkle outside of some sort of discounted run...



Hey dudes,

I haven't been posting here in awhile in part because I've switched back to 6-string guitars for the foreseeable future, but I did just order myself a rainbow sparkle Lightspeed today after seeing that the option was brought back. I'm hoping to have it become my primary guitar for the next several years. Now I just have to wait another ~24 weeks...

6-string Lightspeed w/ trem
Rainbow sparkle on lightweight alder body
Black limba neck, ebony board, jumbo ss frets
Beryllium bridge, Holdsworth neck pickups
White pickups/logo/knobs

It'll be somewhat weird to play for my current gigs (I moved to Florida this year and have been playing an odd combo of reggae, jazz, and rock in a guitar duo for the past 6 months), but I'm thinking that being "the guy with the weird guitar" will help to build some brand recognition rather than being a turn-off. Meanwhile I'm playing a blue MIM Charvel DK24.


----------



## MrWulf

NoodleFace said:


> That shit makes no sense or my brain is too smooth



There's a similar build where they use the piezo pickup instead of any regular humbuckers so the build looks extra smooth without any pickups routes. But apparently the customer for this build have a specific deal in mind for the route


----------



## NoodleFace

Oh I understood his intentions, just not why anyone would do that.

Like I said - my brain is probably completely baby's ass smooth


----------



## Masoo2

Oh real dumb question:

The tuners on my (fixed) headless guitar bridges regularly dig into the side of my right leg. I have no problem with it, honestly I find having the saddles being as near the edge of the body as possible comfortable.

This would pose a problem with the Hipshot headless trem, right? Does this mean I kinda _need_ to go Zeus over Leia just so the bridge stability isn't being affected by my leg?


----------



## CanserDYI

Masoo2 said:


> Oh real dumb question:
> 
> The tuners on my (fixed) headless guitar bridges regularly dig into the side of my right leg. I have no problem with it, honestly I find having the saddles being as near the edge of the body as possible comfortable.
> 
> This would pose a problem with the Hipshot headless trem, right? Does this mean I kinda _need_ to go Zeus over Leia just so the bridge stability isn't being affected by my leg?


Yeah, it will pose a problem with the Leia in my opinion. The huge bevel with the zeus really helps hide them.


----------



## Masoo2

CanserDYI said:


> Yeah, it will pose a problem with the Leia in my opinion. The huge bevel with the zeus really helps hide them.


I guess one thing to note is that my current headless guitars do *not* have any wood behind the tuners, they're just sticking out into the air, whereas it seems the Leia still has *some* wood but a supplementary amount like the Zeus.

edit: also, any recommendations on who to contact at Kiesel? There's been a bunch of names throughout the *checks* 287 pages of this thread to the point where I'm a bit lost haha


----------



## CanserDYI

Masoo2 said:


> I guess one thing to note is that my current headless guitars do *not* have any wood behind the tuners, they're just sticking out into the air, whereas it seems the Leia still has *some* wood but a supplementary amount like the Zeus.
> 
> edit: also, any recommendations on who to contact at Kiesel? There's been a bunch of names throughout the *checks* 287 pages of this thread to the point where I'm a bit lost haha


Chris mothafuckin Hong. Dude is about as patient as they come, big help in terms of whats "doable" in their custom shop, and absolute madman player. Flock is cool too.


----------



## RadoncROCKs

Ugh rainbow sparkle! 
I reached for a used HD on reverb and the finish is unreal in person. However the specs beside the finish are nothing that I really want. I bought bc of rarity. 

I’m definitely looking at getting a new build going but debating on model. Opinions? 

I was going to do a simple raw tone antique ash Osiris next year. I have an Aries, Zeus, Type X, and the rainbow HD. Will prob sell the HD and Zeus now. 

debating between Vanquish, Lightspeed and Osiris. Thoughts?


----------



## CanserDYI

Vanquish 100%, mines in my profile pic and I can't rave or rant enough about how cool of a shape it is. It's VERY compact, IIRC Jeff designed the guitar version for people who like ergonomics of headless, but..want a headstock lol

Its easily the most comfortable shaped guitar I've owned. Its got the comfy feel of a strat, and the weight/compactness/balance of a headless. 

Going to be building two more painted models to take out on the road in the next year or two, as I really don't want to take my aquaburst quilt topped one out.


----------



## spudmunkey

RadoncROCKs said:


> .
> 
> debating between Vanquish, Lightspeed and Osiris. Thoughts?



So, the Osiris will feel identical to the Zeus except a) when hanging on a strap, it will hang slightly to your left, and b) if you wrap your thumb over the top of the neck when you play way up in the upper frets.

I really dig the Lightspeed, but wish it had a sloped forearm area like the Type-X. I haven't played a lightspeed though, and wasn't much a fan of most "e" style body's before anyway.

The Vanquish to me, in hand, feels like a sleeker Aries. Some people get a rerto vibe from the shape,, but it doesnt feel that way. Sort of a cross between an Ibanez RG and an S. If you need a tone knob. I feel like the controls get a little tight together, but not really a deal-breaker, just not what I'd prefer.


----------



## spudmunkey

FYI, as of 32 mins ago, the limited quantity for rainbow sparkle is nearly sold out.


----------



## RadoncROCKs

Well I took the plunge on the Vanquish. Thanks for the help. 

if anybody wants a Zeus or a rainbow sparkle HD I’ll be putting those up in the next few months


----------



## CanserDYI

RadoncROCKs said:


> Well I took the plunge on the Vanquish. Thanks for the help.
> 
> if anybody wants a Zeus or a rainbow sparkle HD I’ll be putting those up in the next few months


You and me might be the only vanquish guys on this forum now  let me know how you enjoy it.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Masoo2 said:


> took to photoshop, I'm preferring the ebony board in the builder but obviously from pictures of real builds I'm preferring maple 99%
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ok ok hear me out:
> 
> one of those above
> 
> *but with the crescent 12th fret inlay
> *
> thoughts?
> 
> edit: hear ya on the orange streaks, definitely not a fan so it's all good with me haha


The humbucker looks five miles away from the bridge. Why? That is the issue to me, not the single coils.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Spaced Out Ace said:


> The humbucker looks five miles away from the bridge. Why? That is the issue to me, not the single coils.



Those aren't real guitars, just mock ups. 

There is a much smaller gap in real life.


----------



## troyguitar

spudmunkey said:


> So, the Osiris will feel identical to the Zeus except a) when hanging on a strap, it will hang slightly to your left, and b) if you wrap your thumb over the top of the neck when you play way up in the upper frets.
> 
> I really dig the Lightspeed, but wish it had a sloped forearm area like the Type-X. I haven't played a lightspeed though, and wasn't much a fan of most "e" style body's before anyway.
> 
> The Vanquish to me, in hand, feels like a sleeker Aries. Some people get a rerto vibe from the shape,, but it doesnt feel that way. Sort of a cross between an Ibanez RG and an S. If you need a tone knob. I feel like the controls get a little tight together, but not really a deal-breaker, just not what I'd prefer.



I went Lightspeed because it's the closest thing to what I actually want: a headless Jackson RR (damn Carvin/Kiesel making the Ultra V backward!). The main thing I'm worried about is the tiny electronics cavity. I'd really prefer a 5-way switch and a tone knob, my Zeus had a ton of great tones available from that combo.

I also would have preferred the rainbow sparkle to continue over the back of the neck, but I understand that I'm in the minority on that one. More sparkles == better.

Regardless, it's going to be pretty awesome and by far the most expensive guitar I'll have ever bought.


----------



## Themistocles

troyguitar said:


> I went Lightspeed because it's the closest thing to what I actually want: a headless Jackson RR (damn Carvin/Kiesel making the Ultra V backward!). The main thing I'm worried about is the tiny electronics cavity. I'd really prefer a 5-way switch and a tone knob, my Zeus had a ton of great tones available from that combo.
> 
> I also would have preferred the rainbow sparkle to continue over the back of the neck, but I understand that I'm in the minority on that one. More sparkles == better.
> 
> Regardless, it's going to be pretty awesome and by far the most expensive guitar I'll have ever bought.


Lightspeed is practically made for sparkles, good choice.


----------



## spudmunkey

The "normal" Sparkle finishes are now on the builder:


----------



## Tree

Finally! I looooove me some sparkle. I was wondering if they were trying to downsize on those options, or limit them to call-in orders, so I'm glad that's not the case.


----------



## spudmunkey

Tree said:


> Finally! I looooove me some sparkle. I was wondering if they were trying to downsize on those options, or limit them to call-in orders, so I'm glad that's not the case.



FWIW, they were *always* a call-in only option, even with the old website. Same with splatter finishes, fades, V-bursts, Monster burst and reverse monster burst, Arctic, Earth, Venom, Cotton Candy, Desert, Black Dream, Rad Ash, Faded Denim, Washed Denim, Candy finishes, Saber finishes, Semi-Chrome finishes...


----------



## Empryrean

BigViolin said:


> I was looking at a bolt on...makes sense now. Unrelated, but kinda surprised not to see much uproar about the *$100 in options going away*.


Now the prices have gone up across the board as well I was this close to finally ordering one I swear


----------



## spudmunkey

Empryrean said:


> Now the prices have gone up across the board as well I was this close to finally ordering one I swear



Depending on the options you were considering, you might save money. Yes, the prices went up, but some of that is the now-included cases. So if you were getting a standard guitar and the price went up $100, $80 of it (at least for a little while) is the case. Then, the ash body went from either $120 or $150 (don't remember which) to $100. And also, except for the compound radius, the other fretboard radius options are now "free".


----------



## CanserDYI

Paging @spudmunkey , I can't find the original spec sheets for Carvin DC800, do you know what the original Carvin scale length was for their uniform scaled 8 strings?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

CanserDYI said:


> Paging @spudmunkey , I can't find the original spec sheets for Carvin DC800, do you know what the original Carvin scale length was for their uniform scaled 8 strings?


I vaguely remember them being 27"


----------



## spudmunkey

Yep, 27".


----------



## binz

How much time does a Delos build with sparkle finish take these days? And is there any import tax to Canada?

I will most likely be in Canada between May and August for work and am looking to fulfill my dream of a custom Kiesel Delos. I'm curious on how much time I should plan for the build. I'd like to order as late as possible as it might be spontaneously canceled with new covid measures or stuff like that. Also, best case scenario would be that I pay most of it with my Canadian dollars to avoid currency exchange fees (implicit or explicit, either way it'd be a loss).


----------



## spudmunkey

We haven't had "don't go to work" closures since early/mid 2020 here in California, and they've not canceled any orders that I've ever heard of. If you mean YOU cancelling the order, they don't really do order cancelations, and if you do pull out, you're out at least 20%. I'm not 100% sure on how that works with non-returnable builds, though...it could be more than 20%.

As far as timeline, it will vary greatly. They do the sparkle finishes in batches of, I think, 10, because the cleanup of the spray booth takes so long after each session. Meaning if you are the first, you may be waiting an additional month or two while they get 9 more orders in. If you're the 10th, well then there's little delay.


----------



## Alberto7

binz said:


> How much time does a Delos build with sparkle finish take these days? And is there any import tax to Canada?
> 
> I will most likely be in Canada between May and August for work and am looking to fulfill my dream of a custom Kiesel Delos. I'm curious on how much time I should plan for the build. I'd like to order as late as possible as it might be spontaneously canceled with new covid measures or stuff like that. Also, best case scenario would be that I pay most of it with my Canadian dollars to avoid currency exchange fees (implicit or explicit, either way it'd be a loss).



I've had to pay over 100 CAD in duty when importing a $1400 guitar once. And if they ship via UPS or Fedex (dunno how they ship), you're looking at some hefty brokerage fees. On that same $1400 guitar (shipped via UPS), I got slammed with another $120 in brokerage fees to clear customs. You could always clear customs yourself, but it's a bit of a process.


----------



## olejason

Anyone have thoughts on a solid black limba neck as far as stability goes? Alternatively, have they ever done builds with a roasted maple neck and the pointed angle headstock? I'm guessing the width of that headstock is why it limits neck wood options.


----------



## spudmunkey

New Scott Carstairs signature model just announced earlier today.

Based on the neck-through Aries with a bevel delete (something they don't offer on the standard NA model), with a new signature "Empyrean" neck pickup.

Here's my best attempt to price out a DC model (on the right) compared to the new SC7X on the left..it's actually a bit cheaper than the "standard" model with the same specs, so no "endorsee tax", I guess.





It isn't sold or marketed like some of the recent "artist edition" models which were limited qty/time.

I don't like Falluja at all, but I've really enjoyed listening/watching so much of his other playing.

https://www.kieselguitars.com/series/guitar/scott-carstairs-signature-series


----------



## NoodleFace

Anyone know if kiesel will sell paint?

My Aries came from a person who originally bought it and he did something to the wood around the volume knob that broke the wood and it was "repaired" but putting some clear coat over it. It's not terrible, but one day was thinking of having someone professionally fix it. Not sure how easy it is for someone to match kiesel racing green though.


----------



## spudmunkey

NoodleFace said:


> Anyone know if kiesel will sell paint?



Not that I've ever heard of, but I've never heard of anyone asking.


----------



## John

NoodleFace said:


> Anyone know if kiesel will sell paint?
> 
> My Aries came from a person who originally bought it and he did something to the wood around the volume knob that broke the wood and it was "repaired" but putting some clear coat over it. It's not terrible, but one day was thinking of having someone professionally fix it. Not sure how easy it is for someone to match kiesel racing green though.



Exact color matching is kind of a drag, if that's what you're trying to shoot for. But there's other professional refinishers who can do a great job regardless, and at the very least get that aesthetic down.


----------



## Themistocles

olejason said:


> Anyone have thoughts on a solid black limba neck as far as stability goes? Alternatively, have they ever done builds with a roasted maple neck and the pointed angle headstock? I'm guessing the width of that headstock is why it limits neck wood options.


Black limba is a particuarly stable wood and I love love love my 1 piece Black limba neck on my Vader 7 (its a waxy wood with a medium open grain to it, feels great, silky). The feel of tung oiled black limba is amazing and you can get rawtone on it on a black limba body... it feels and looks cool. It is a very resonant wood btw.


----------



## spudmunkey

New Thomas McRocklin signature model









Kiesel Guitars: McRocklin Signature Series


I've been on a constant journey trying to find the perfect guitar with the perfect tone. Crucially I wanted a guitar that felt incredibly comfortable to play, as if it were a physical extension of me. I wanted no restrictions when playing incredibly technical licks, but equally it had to...



www.kieselguitars.com





Based on the Zeus, with his signature Fishman pickups, "custom switch", *and Richlite fingerboard.*

Price is $2199. Specing out a normal Zeus as close as I could,, I hit $2199 without yet adding the thin neck option, and the Richlite fretboard, or whatever additional cost might come from his signature pickups over their normal Fluence Moderns they offer.



Specs:
Rawtone-finished swamp ash body
Signature Fishman Fluence pickups in purple
Richlite Diamond Black fretboard
White acrylic offset staggered dot inlays, with optional MCR circle 12th fret logo
Thin 3-piece walnut/purpleheart neck, with jumbo stainless frets
Availble in antoqie ash, a handful of trans finishes with antique ash, or Lavender Metallic

$2199


----------



## spudmunkey

Oh, yeah. And Richlight fretboards in Diamond Black are now an option on the builder for all* models. $50 upgrade from their standard ebony.


*not including signature models that include specific fretboard woods offerings


----------



## Tree

I’m both surprised and not at the same time, that he got a full on sig vs the artist edition thing. He’s a phenomenal player, no doubt, but I wouldn’t think he’s popular enough to drive sales to warrant a signature model. But at the same time, what the hell do I know 

It’s cool to see either way. 

Also, I’m strangely drawn to the Scott sigs. I don’t need a new 7, and yet…


----------



## spudmunkey

I actually bet out of all of Kiesel's artists, he's likely got amongst the highest ratio of actual guitar players making up his following.

They also actually did a sort of unofficial run a couple of years ago of the Osiris model in Antoque ash to match one he had been playing. It wasn't a fully-fleshed-out artist editions, but they did dip their toes in so they had _some_ visibility his ability to turn sales...


----------



## CanserDYI

I'm very very suprised it took this long to give McRocklin a sig, dude has quite a large hobby guitarist following, and didn't dude play with Vai in the 80s/90's or something? Lots of people still remember him.


----------



## Tree

IIRC Vai saw him on TV or something and kinda took him under his wing for a short time? Something like that. Either way, dude was a child prodigy and had some play time with Vai, and has been gifted some of his personal Ibbies.


----------



## spudmunkey

He was the kid guitar player in Vai's The Audience is Listening video.



He also was in Bad 4 Good on Vai's label (if I remember right). Fun fact: the Bad 4 Good singer was in Terminator 2 (the redhead kid in the arcade that tried to distract the T-1000/cop away from John Connor).


I don't know the story, but he sort of disappeared for years, and then suddenly came back to guitar, like he never skipped a beat, and has embraced online content like few others.


----------



## ArtDecade

Really?! I haven't head McRocklin's tunes, but that is an awesome origin story.


----------



## CanserDYI

ArtDecade said:


> Really?! I haven't head McRocklin's tunes, but that is an awesome origin story.


I think you'd really like his stuff, frankly. The guy is an absolute shred monster, but melodic as all hell. Don't let his braces fool you, dude has to be bordering 50. Absolute MONSTER player.

He's like the Joe Bonamassa of 80's shred lol


----------



## ArtDecade

CanserDYI said:


> I think you'd really like his stuff, frankly. The guy is an absolute shred monster, but melodic as all hell. Don't let his braces fool you, dude has to be bordering 50. Absolute MONSTER player.
> 
> He's like the Joe Bonamassa of 80's shred lol



I just checked out his site and he has a demonstration of one of his more difficult solos and the phrasing is right out of the Vai handbook. Awesome to see that he has made a career out of music, because the last I remember about him was when he was in his teen band. I think I saw them open for Night Ranger... or maybe it was Damned Yankees. It was a million years ago now.


----------



## Decapitated

sorry for slight thread derail


----------



## spudmunkey

Here's a quick Cliff's Notes of McRocklin's history.





Fishman | Thomas ^McRocklin







www.fishman.com






Apparently he opened for Ozzy in his home town when he was 8, and played at a Jason Becker benefit show in '91 when he was 12, along with Zakk Wylde, George Lynch, Warren DiMartini, Vivian Campbell, Steve Lukather, etc.


I am still curious to know, though, what happened that he basically seemed to give up guitar for 20 years, and then come back to it.


----------



## maliciousteve

Going by his Wikipedia page. He became a mastering engineer and became more interested in other genres of music. Then I guess, marriage, kids etc took priority for a while till he came back on the scene


----------



## spudmunkey

spudmunkey said:


> New Thomas McRocklin signature model
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kiesel Guitars: McRocklin Signature Series
> 
> 
> I've been on a constant journey trying to find the perfect guitar with the perfect tone. Crucially I wanted a guitar that felt incredibly comfortable to play, as if it were a physical extension of me. I wanted no restrictions when playing incredibly technical licks, but equally it had to...
> 
> 
> 
> www.kieselguitars.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Based on the Zeus, with his signature Fishman pickups, "custom switch", *and Richlite fingerboard.*
> 
> Price is $2199. Specing out a normal Zeus as close as I could,, I hit $2199 without yet adding the thin neck option, and the Richlite fretboard, or whatever additional cost might come from his signature pickups over their normal Fluence Moderns they offer.
> 
> 
> 
> Specs:
> Rawtone-finished swamp ash body
> Signature Fishman Fluence pickups in purple
> Richlite Diamond Black fretboard
> White acrylic offset staggered dot inlays, with optional MCR circle 12th fret logo
> Thin 3-piece walnut/purpleheart neck, with jumbo stainless frets
> Availble in antoqie ash, a handful of trans finishes with antique ash, or Lavender Metallic
> 
> $2199




To clarify one point on the pricing: I was actually assuming the standard neck was the one on Thomas's guitar in his video, but the standard at the base price is the 1-piece maple, so the pricing comparison I mentioned with the standard zeus isn't accurate.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

spudmunkey said:


> Oh, yeah. And Richlight fretboards in Diamond Black are now an option on the builder for all* models. $50 upgrade from their standard ebony.
> 
> 
> *not including signature models that include specific fretboard woods offerings


wooooo
richlite boards are the shit
No reason to ever get their dyed black ebony boards now 

ima go spec out a type x


----------



## olejason

Glad to see them offering richlite, I love how it looks and I've found it to be incredibly stable.


----------



## Hollowway

Ugh, they've got so many cool things going now. Must. Resist.


----------



## NoodleFace

Definitely dig mcrocklins style, very unique to my ears. But headless has to be the ugliest trend I can think of


----------



## MaxOfMetal

The Kiesel sigs just seem so low effort. 

The only cool one is the Becker "Numbers".


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

Richlite, oh yeah BB!


----------



## budda

6k replies, damn.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> The Kiesel sigs just seem so low effort.
> 
> The only cool one is the Becker "Numbers".



If they ever release a JB Numbers in black-out ash, maple board and black numbers, or white with Richlite or black ebony fretboard with white numbers...any other "new guitar" plans would be shelved.

As far as their other sigs, the Holdsworth is what it is, the CC275 is cool, and I can appreciate the Letchford for what it is (their first set-through, the body width actually feels super comfortable) and I'm not one of those "headless must be compact in every dimension or it's a failure" purists, and I dig that it's thinner than any other model they offer. But, yeah. Everything else is just a variation on a standard model, basically. Which is actually how the vast majority of artist signature models are done by almost every company. ..specifically, because the cost to roll it out is so much lower than a bespoke body shape. The CC275 used to be just an options package, basically, until they discontinued the standard AC275 so that the CC was the only way to get that body style.


----------



## Tree

spudmunkey said:


> If they ever release a JB Numbers in black-out ash, maple board and black numbers, or white with Richlite or black ebony fretboard with white numbers...any other "new guitar" plans would be shelved.
> 
> As far as their other sigs, the Holdsworth is what it is, the CC275 is cool, and I can appreciate the Letchford for what it is (their first set-through, the body width actually feels super comfortable) and I'm not one of those "headless must be compact in every dimension or it's a failure" purists, and I dig that it's thinner than any other model they offer. But, yeah. Everything else is just a variation on a standard model, basically. Which is actually how the vast majority of artist signature models are done by almost every company. ..specifically, because the cost to roll it out is so much lower than a bespoke body shape. The CC275 used to be just an options package, basically, until they discontinued the standard AC275 so that the CC was the only way to get that body style.


The Letchford is definitely my favorite of their sig offerings. Everything about it just works really well. I miss mine bad  

Isn’t Lee McKinney’s a unique shape now?


----------



## spudmunkey

Tree said:


> Isn’t Lee McKinney’s a unique shape now?


It is, but I left that one out because it's only a minor tweak. It's the Osiris, with the lower shown of the Zeus. The FG1 is actually also a bespoke shape...because they retired the standard model it was based on. The GH3 is a Delos with a slightly different outline. The AJ2 is a Crescent, with an ever-so-slightly modified upper fret access contour. The AJ2 is more unique than the AJ. The Carstairs is technically a unique shape because it's a bevel delete neck-through Aries, which they don't otherwise offer, but it's a very slight difference from the standard DC.


----------



## RadoncROCKs

I'm very split on Kiesel design offerings because I love their bevels but I want the ability to put an amazing figured top on a guitar.

My neck through Aries is probably the best guitar I've played but I don't like the way the tops look with the bevel. The Carstairs solves the previous issues of doing an Aries bevel delete with neck through - but you still lose the bevels and are very limited with options.

The Letchford is very interesting to me but only comes in multiscale. 

So while they offer about everything I would like, there are still some combinations that I can't put together for my dream guitar. Maybe a Crescent.

The McRocklin signature is a pretty big meh to me, glad for him but only thing interesting is the Richlite board.
How does anyone in the know compare it to ebony?


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> If they ever release a JB Numbers in black-out ash, maple board and black numbers, or white with Richlite or black ebony fretboard with white numbers...any other "new guitar" plans would be shelved.
> 
> As far as their other sigs, the Holdsworth is what it is, the CC275 is cool, and I can appreciate the Letchford for what it is (their first set-through, the body width actually feels super comfortable) and I'm not one of those "headless must be compact in every dimension or it's a failure" purists, and I dig that it's thinner than any other model they offer. But, yeah. Everything else is just a variation on a standard model, basically. Which is actually how the vast majority of artist signature models are done by almost every company. ..specifically, because the cost to roll it out is so much lower than a bespoke body shape. The CC275 used to be just an options package, basically, until they discontinued the standard AC275 so that the CC was the only way to get that body style.


I'll take just about any variation of a Number guitar. Shoot, that KxK Japanese thing was inspired by the Numbers guit. And a couple of months ago a matte green one popped up fs on Reverb for $1600, and I bought it within 30 minutes of it being posted But shortly after the guy canceled the order. I think he decided he could get more, seeing as how it sold so fast. THAT pissed me off.  

But yeah, the Numbers one is really the only thing that I consider a true "sig." (And, as you point out, the Holdsworth.) The rest of them I have a hard time believing were actual ground up specs by the artist, and more of a collaboration of Kiesel and the artist about what could/should be done, within the confines of what they have. Like, if I had suggested on this forum a decade ago that they should do the Numbers guitar, we all would have said, "No way they're going to do all of that CNC programming for a niche sig." and yet they actually did it.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> The Kiesel sigs just seem so low effort.
> 
> The only cool one is the Becker "Numbers".



Not lower efforts than the large majority of signatures on the market from the large majority of builders. 
Which are, let's be honest, countless strats/LPs/Teles//RRs with no distinguishable or unique specs to speak of. And sometimes _maybe _bring a new piece of hardware or electronics here and there (which Kiesel also did with the evertune and Fluences). And I guess in the Kiesel case you still get to customize them a bit most of the time which is pretty neat?

The "meh" IMHO comes from some of the base shapes/models _themselves _sometimes being either quite forgettable/low-effort (the straty Delos or the now-basic-25.5-soloist DC) or just being wonky in the first place (zeus, hyperdrive...).


----------



## Hollowway

mbardu said:


> Not lower efforts than the large majority of signatures on the market from the large majority of builders.
> Which are, let's be honest, countless strats/LPs/Teles//RRs with no distinguishable or unique specs to speak of. And sometimes _maybe _bring a new piece of hardware or electronics here and there (which Kiesel also did with the evertune and Fluences). And I guess in the Kiesel case you still get to customize them a bit most of the time which is pretty neat?
> 
> The "meh" IMHO comes from some of the base shapes/models _themselves _sometimes being either quite forgettable/low-effort (the straty Delos or the now-basic-25.5-soloist DC) or just being wonky in the first place (zeus, hyperdrive...).


Yeah, and that's been one of my biggest gripes about sigs. I'm not sure if it's the company or the artist that ends up picking a pretty generic build, but it would be nice to see more stuff that's truly customized to the artist. I have to think that there is enough unique playing to each person that some sort of modification to a standard guitar would highlight that particular player's style, taste, or method. But too much it's just off the shelf options that aren't really anything special.


----------



## Adieu

spudmunkey said:


> Oh, yeah. And Richlight fretboards in Diamond Black are now an option on the builder for all* models. $50 upgrade from their standard ebony.
> 
> 
> *not including signature models that include specific fretboard woods offerings



Wait, what?

Resin-on-cardboard ("Richlite") is an UPGRADE option... from actual ebony?


----------



## mbardu

Adieu said:


> Wait, what?
> 
> Resin-on-cardboard ("Richlite") is an UPGRADE option... from actual ebony?



Believe it or not, Richlite is actually an _excellent _material for fretboards.
Might not have the cachet of Ebony, but it is excellent in both looks and functionality.

Now- the 50$ fee is not there to reflect a higher cost for the actual material. The material probably cost a buck or 2 either way.
It's mostly margin, and then a bit of having to put a non-standard option where ebony is the standard option.


----------



## spudmunkey

Ugh, why are computer CPUs so expensive? They are just rocks that think when we feed them lightning.


----------



## laxu

RadoncROCKs said:


> I'm very split on Kiesel design offerings because I love their bevels but I want the ability to put an amazing figured top on a guitar.
> 
> My neck through Aries is probably the best guitar I've played but I don't like the way the tops look with the bevel. The Carstairs solves the previous issues of doing an Aries bevel delete with neck through - but you still lose the bevels and are very limited with options.


I think the bevel is one of the best features of the Kiesel Aries and they should have never offered the "bevel delete" option. Kiesel's big mistake is not showing enough 3D pictures of their guitars because those shapes start to make a helluva lot more sense when seen in person. I find my bolt-on Aries AM7 super comfortable overall.

I second that the signature models are rather uninteresting. Most of them are just "hey, pick one of our models and have more customization options than the regular person". But to be fair a lot of signatures from other brands are just that as well.

They also keep churning out "new" models that seem to me like someone just went into CAD and did a few minor changes to an existing model like made a horn a bit different length or flipped the body horizontally. That takes about 5 minutes to do.


----------



## Themistocles

maliciousteve said:


> Going by his Wikipedia page. He became a mastering engineer and became more interested in other genres of music. Then I guess, marriage, kids etc took priority for a while till he came back on the scene


Kinda like how Jimmy Page declined the Yardbirds gig to learn production... then jumped back in as a player. Im really glad Kiesel gets involved in these players players. Since the music itself doesnt pay like it did in the CD era and the pandemic has been destroying what little touring income is out there this guiar industrial complex part of the music industry is one of the areas of continued growth. Frankly I like it best when the artists are pushing the gear ... rather than radio play and record labels. Kudos to liesel for tying richlite to an artists rather than just presenting it as a luthier's dalliance.


----------



## spudmunkey

9-string Aries, primarily built because of Josh Travis of Glass Cloud.

Can be spec'd on the builder as of right now.

29" scale

Standard lithium pickups, optional Thorium bridge, Scott Carstair's Empyrean may be coming soon.


----------



## Chris Bowsman

... and now I'm mocking up a 9 string Aries.


----------



## spudmunkey




----------



## Albake21

I was just waiting for the day Jeff would crack and make a 9 string 

Definitely not for me, but hey, it's more options for those who enjoy it.


----------



## cardinal

Finally the 9 string! I can't handle a straight 29" scale though


----------



## Avedas

I would never ever buy this but the Aries body shape does look really nice with it.


----------



## faceofsatan

NoodleFace said:


> Anyone know if kiesel will sell paint?
> 
> My Aries came from a person who originally bought it and he did something to the wood around the volume knob that broke the wood and it was "repaired" but putting some clear coat over it. It's not terrible, but one day was thinking of having someone professionally fix it. Not sure how easy it is for someone to match kiesel racing green though.


Just call them with the model and the color they're in San Diego California. I'm almost certain they will hook you up.


----------



## Masoo2

I kind of want it


----------



## cardinal

Pretty bummed the 9 string is a straight scale. I was expecting a Kiesel 9 eventually, but they've shifted nearly all the 8s to multiscale, and I was expecting the 9 to be multiscale as well. A straight 29" scale is not a useful 9 string to me, but I guess others feel different.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Damn it. I literally just said enough with 8s for a little bit. Been playing baritone 7s. Now I want a 9 FML


----------



## laxu

cardinal said:


> Pretty bummed the 9 string is a straight scale. I was expecting a Kiesel 9 eventually, but they've shifted nearly all the 8s to multiscale, and I was expecting the 9 to be multiscale as well. A straight 29" scale is not a useful 9 string to me, but I guess others feel different.


Yeah I just don't see the point of non-multiscales with so many strings. It's not like Kiesel has any difficulty making them either.

That said, I feel 9-strings get into that territory where they don't make all that much sense in the first place or at least work only for very specific playing styles (two handed tapping etc).


----------



## CanserDYI

laxu said:


> Yeah I just don't see the point of non-multiscales with so many strings. It's not like Kiesel has any difficulty making them either.
> 
> That said, I feel 9-strings get into that territory where they don't make all that much sense in the first place or at least work only for very specific playing styles (two handed tapping etc).


I can answer that, I don't like using multiscale for 8 strings at all, the way my hand goes around the neck at the low frets makes the nut kind of sit in the middle of my fretting hand, I have no experience with 9 strings but I definitely prefer straight scale for 8s and 7s.


----------



## cardinal

CanserDYI said:


> I can answer that, I don't like using multiscale for 8 strings at all, the way my hand goes around the neck at the low frets makes the nut kind of sit in the middle of my fretting hand, I have no experience with 9 strings but I definitely prefer straight scale for 8s and 7s.


I prefer straight scale as well, but 9 string is the tipping point for me. 8s do fine IMHO with around a 27" scale, and the high strings are still functional. 

I have 28" scale 9-string, and IMHO the high strings are starting to suffer (sort of a tinny sound and tension that is making bending difficult) but the 9th string just does not seem to have enough snap or tension on it. For me, it seems like you just have to go to a multiscale for this to work out. At 29" straight, you might as well just junk the higher strings and use a 8 or 7 string instead. IMHO.


----------



## thrsher

id love to see that 29 neck on a 6 for a true baritone 6. its out there now, someone will throw enough money at jeff for it


----------



## Avedas

I've only played the Ibanez RG9 which is also straight scale, but I find the high strings basically unplayable for any sort of lead work at that point. It must be even worse at 29". Any sort of meaningful fan would probably be too extreme to be comfortable. I'd rather just play a downtuned 6 to play that low or get a proper touch guitar to do tapping shenanigans.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Masoo2 said:


> I kind of want it



This thread needs more mock ups.


----------



## vortex_infinium

I've been eyeing my 9 string options recently, but also don't want to spent a lot of money. 29" actually sounds great on the bass side hopefully this does well to warrant more offerings. A base/semi-base model isn't _that_ much more than many of the more appealing import 9s.

They use Hipshots right? Speaking of wanting more offerings... Headless when.


----------



## cardinal

Avedas said:


> I've only played the Ibanez RG9 which is also straight scale, but I find the high strings basically unplayable for any sort of lead work at that point. It must be even worse at 29". Any sort of meaningful fan would probably be too extreme to be comfortable. I'd rather just play a downtuned 6 to play that low or get a proper touch guitar to do tapping shenanigans.


Yeah, I don't know the limit of what fan is possible. Something like 28 5/8" or 29" down to 26.5" or 27" would work for string tension and the distance between the frets, but I don't know what that fan actually feels like to play or if there are pickups wide enough to span the distance with the proper angle.


----------



## Xaeldaren

Where do people's opinions lie on the Meshuggah signature at 29.4" scale for an 8? It's interesting for me as someone who's never gone beyond 27" to see the discussion on when things get, from my perspective, pretty extreme.


----------



## spudmunkey

vortex_infinium said:


> I've been eyeing my 9 string options recently, but also don't want to spent a lot of money. 29" actually sounds great on the bass side hopefully this does well to warrant more offerings. A base/semi-base model isn't _that_ much more than many of the more appealing import 9s.
> 
> They use Hipshots right? Speaking of wanting more offerings... Headless when.


At least not until Hipshot makes a 9-string headless bridge and Kiesel's head piece. For the bridge, I suppose they could use the Solo bridges like they would for multiscale headless, but they still don't have a head piece.


----------



## trem licking

29" is completely doable straight scale. Just use lighter high strings. No problems on my 30" agile with .007 high E


----------



## cardinal

Xaeldaren said:


> Where do people's opinions lie on the Meshuggah signature at 29.4" scale for an 8? It's interesting for me as someone who's never gone beyond 27" to see the discussion on when things get, from my perspective, pretty extreme.


It's just too long for me, both for tension and fret spacing. My hands just physically hurt after a session of playing. Maybe with large hands and light/downtuned strings it would be ok. 

I guess ultimately I can use a 27" straight scale 8 as a general purpose guitar, but if I want anything lower, I personally kinda have to use a specialty guitar just for that. If I can't use the high strings, I'd probably should just find a long scale 6 or 7 string for that. My 28" scale 9 just sits in a closest unfortunately.


----------



## NoodleFace

MaxOfMetal said:


> This thread needs more mock ups.
> 
> View attachment 103736


----------



## MaxOfMetal

NoodleFace said:


> View attachment 103741



Nothing I'd spec out, but that's pretty cool.



Xaeldaren said:


> Where do people's opinions lie on the Meshuggah signature at 29.4" scale for an 8? It's interesting for me as someone who's never gone beyond 27" to see the discussion on when things get, from my perspective, pretty extreme.



You can't really go by the M80M/M8M, those are purpose built, bright, punchy, percussive machines. 

Folks have been using ~30" scales for a long time now, and it really depends on what sound you're going for.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

thrsher said:


> id love to see that 29 neck on a 6 for a true baritone 6. its out there now, someone will throw enough money at jeff for it



I hope so. I presume it would sell a lot better and also open Kiesel players who don’t play 7s or 8s to tuning down more 



Xaeldaren said:


> Where do people's opinions lie on the Meshuggah signature at 29.4" scale for an 8? It's interesting for me as someone who's never gone beyond 27" to see the discussion on when things get, from my perspective, pretty extreme.



The low strings sound great. Tight, clear and ring out nicely. Paired with the Lundgren pickup it’s instant meshuggah. I found the high strings unusable because of how thin and shrill they sounded. With no neck pickup you would need a lot of EQing. 

Comfort wise it’s fine for slower down tuned music but you wouldn’t play necrophagist on it. String gauges can be reduced to get suitable tension but you do run into the problem of using a 7 or 8 on the E string. 

I can’t imagine the Kiesel pickups will sound good on the high strings at 29”. They are very bright already in 25.5” guitars.


----------



## Lorcan Ward




----------



## cardinal

Ugh I want


----------



## olejason




----------



## RobDobble6S7

Purple


----------



## CanserDYI

Yeah not sure why there isn't an actual baritone offering but we get wicked long 9 strings? There's gotta be a much bigger crowd for bari 6s than 9s...right?


----------



## thrsher

If I did


----------



## spudmunkey




----------



## NoodleFace

MaxOfMetal said:


> Nothing I'd spec out, but that's pretty cool.
> 
> 
> 
> You can't really go by the M80M/M8M, those are purpose built, bright, punchy, percussive machines.
> 
> Folks have been using ~30" scales for a long time now, and it really depends on what sound you're going for.


Oh I wouldn't either, I just wanted to see how obnoxious I could make it


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

CanserDYI said:


> Yeah not sure why there isn't an actual baritone offering but we get wicked long 9 strings? There's gotta be a much bigger crowd for bari 6s than 9s...right?


just my guess here but they probably think 26.5" is enough of a baritone-ish option for the 6ers


----------



## MaxOfMetal

CanserDYI said:


> Yeah not sure why there isn't an actual baritone offering but we get wicked long 9 strings? There's gotta be a much bigger crowd for bari 6s than 9s...right?



Same reason we got a 7 string bass: there's an artist helping push it through.


----------



## Alberto7

I just want an M8M but I don't like the price tag. So I made a Kiesel M9M



Too bad I can't get the neck with the raw tone finish on the builder.

I've hated on Kiesel so much in the past, and the sentiment stands, but fuck I've found myself looking at them an awful lot recently.


----------



## GenghisCoyne

talk to me about a kiesel bass VI or dont talk to me.


----------



## spudmunkey

Alberto7 said:


> Too bad I can't get the neck with the raw tone finish on the builder.


FYI, they don't offer the Raw Tone finish on necks. Any raw-tone-finished guitar, since they've started offering it, has come with a tung oil neck.

Even if you just wanted a painted neck in satin, they are stepping back from offering painted necks on bolt-ons, just because the additional attention needed on neck pockets simply costs their efficiency too much without having to charge a shit-ton. So much of their offering lately has been driven by efficiency...both in options they will or won't offer, prices (both base prices and options), and even how they build guitars.


Supposedly there was also a "acoustic" finish, and my understanding was that it was meant as a raw-tone-like clear finish that was going to be used on the Zeus Acoustic model when that was launched, but it's not something I've heard mentioned at all since then, so I don't even know if they ever offered it "for real".


----------



## Hollowway

Well, I definitely will NOT be getting a PME board if I order one of these. There’s a pop up that says the build has to cost $2500 in other options, and then an additional $661 for the PME board. 

In reality, I probably won’t buy one, for the reasons others mentioned here. A cool looking one is super expensive, and a conservative looking one isn’t all that much different from existing 9s.


----------



## cardinal

Busted out my RG9. Man that's a lot of stupid fun. Left wrist hurts like crazy now. Dunno why that always happens with that guitar. Not sure if it's the scale or the neck shape or neck width or what.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> Well, I definitely will NOT be getting a PME board if I order one of these. There’s a pop up that says the build has to cost $2500 in other options, and then an additional $661 for the PME board.
> 
> In reality, I probably won’t buy one, for the reasons others mentioned here. A cool looking one is super expensive, and a conservative looking one isn’t all that much different from existing 9s.



To clarify, the restriction is only that the build has to be $2500. It should only say you need to add $701 in options to the base Aries 9-string to hit $2500, and then the PME board should only be $300.

Are you getting something other than this? This was a bug on the builder for the Retro Solo and SH550 for a while, but those should have been fixed.


----------



## spudmunkey

There are other bugs, too, like when I added a quilted maple top and the black 3PB, the black 3PB is obscuring the body wood, no matter how I have it painted. This is supposed to be RNC (Rear Natural Clear).

You'll also notice how the abalone knob-toppers don't align with the knobs.


The backgrounds are doing something funky, too, with trans colors, but only if you switch to/from "none"/clear first.



It's still very much in BETA.


----------



## Alberto7

Tried to do the most decked out and ridiculous build on that Aries 9, just to see how expensive I could get it. I thought I'd hate the result, but I thought it came out surprisingly pretty. I'd never get this though


----------



## Alberto7

spudmunkey said:


> There are other bugs, too, like when I added a quilted maple top and the black 3PB, the black 3PB is obscuring the body wood, no matter how I have it painted. This is supposed to be RNC (Rear Natural Clear).
> 
> You'll also notice how the abalone knob-toppers don't align with the knobs.
> View attachment 103786
> 
> The backgrounds are doing something funky, too, with trans colors, but only if you switch to/from "none"/clear first.
> View attachment 103788
> 
> 
> It's still very much in BETA.
> View attachment 103787


That and the pearloid tuner buttons don't show at all, though I think that's been like that since I started tinkering with the builder a couple weeks ago. See my above post. Offset knob tops, and the tuner buttons are still gold even though I had the pearloid tuners option selected.


----------



## spudmunkey

Alberto7 said:


> That and the pearloid tuner buttons don't show at all, though I think that's been like that since I started tinkering with the builder a couple weeks ago. See my above post. Offset knob tops, and the tuner buttons are still gold even though I had the pearloid tuners option selected.



The pearloid tuners in the 8s were fixed earlier this week. At least on the couple of headstocks I looked at.


----------



## maliciousteve

Wouldn't ever buy a 9 string but this would what I would look like if I did


----------



## olejason

Would there be a tactile difference between a raw tone neck and tung oiled neck? My Osiris has a tung oil roasted maple neck and it just feels like raw wood.


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

Safe to assume they will not entertain the idea of doing an antique ash neck right? Would they maybe stain maple to match?


----------



## spudmunkey

olejason said:


> Would there be a tactile difference between a raw tone neck and tung oiled neck? My Osiris has a tung oil roasted maple neck and it just feels like raw wood.



To me, yes. The tung oil neck feels "drier" and "faster". I've heard some people say they feel quite similar, but I do find that there was a difference. I'll qualify my opinion by clarifying that I have not owned a raw tone finished guitar, and my experiences was just with NAMM guitars in 2020. The Kiesel booth was where I spent the most time, but it was still just a few minutes over 2 days. To me, the raw tone definitely feels like there's a finish, but it's still a satin finish. Not quite as smooth as their normal smooth satin finish, though. To me, it feels a lot like the finish Taylor uses on the necks of their 100 and 200 series guitars. Taylor's 300 series use a finish that's more like Kiesel's other "satin" finish.



Jeffrey Bain said:


> Safe to assume they will not entertain the idea of doing an antique ash neck right? Would they maybe stain maple to match?


Specifically "Antique ash" on any other wood is a no-go. Even if you get a neck-through guitar with a maple neck and ash wings, if you order AAT, it won't be applied to the maple:



Same with the Rad Ash and Blacked Out Ash:




As far as I know, I've never seen them do a "antique ash-alike" finish on a maple neck. I could imagine they might try, but if you're expecting it to match pretty closely, I think you'd come away dissapointed. It'd coordinate, but won't match:





And like I mentiopned earlier, it sounds like they aren't painting/satining/glossing bolt-on necks at the moment. A set neck could have a similar look, but neck-throughs could look odd with the "we tried" stained stripe. Maple takes to stain way different than ash.


----------



## SymmetricScars

CanserDYI said:


> Yeah not sure why there isn't an actual baritone offering but we get wicked long 9 strings? There's gotta be a much bigger crowd for bari 6s than 9s...right?





GenghisCoyne said:


> talk to me about a kiesel bass VI or dont talk to me.



I'm in this camp. Lately I've been really want a long scale 6, I was originally thinking 28". I have two Kiesels and would gladly have ordered another from them if they'd offer something like a baritone 6. Instead I ordered a Balaguer Diablo, they offer various scale lengths, including 28.5" and 30" options so I decided to go full long boi and get the 30"


----------



## RevelGTR

My second Kiesel custom order, a Zeus 7 w trem, has arrived and been sold. I still think they’re a fantastic value and make cool stuff but I don’t think I’ll order another. 

Pros: 
- Great fretwork and setup 
- Fantastic tuning stability 
- Berylliums sounded amazing 
- Zeus body shape is extremely comfortable and looks great, especially in person 

Cons:
- Heavier than my Suhr Modern with similar woods, pretty disappointing for a headless guitar 
- Messy control cavity route and trem route, very amateur looking up close - the edges had a serrated look in a few spots 
- Very little sustain, a fraction of what I could get out of both my custom shop Strat (ultra low output singles) and Suhr Modern (medium hot humbuckers), not sure what the deal was there


----------



## RevelGTR

Also worth noting that when I listed the guitar in the Kiesel Buy/Sell/Trade group the Kiesel fanboys were mad at me for selling the guitar so soon after receiving it.  I really think Jeff being an asshole creates a Stockholm Syndrome like loyalty in his fanbase. Never stop Kieseling Kiesel boiz.

That Aries 9 is pretty sick though.


----------



## spudmunkey

RevelGTR said:


> Also worth noting that when I listed the guitar in the Kiesel Buy/Sell/Trade group the Kiesel fanboys were mad at me for selling the guitar so soon after receiving it.  I really think Jeff being an asshole creates a Stockholm Syndrome like loyalty in his fanbase.


Honestly, more often than not, it's the people who already have a bone to pick with Jeff who see something like the 9-string, and can't help but crack jokes like, "I can't wait to get mine on Reverb about a week after they start delivering to customers" and "I can't wait to see it on ebay in 6 months" when someone posted their "I just ordered this. The wait begins..." posts.  Lilke they don't understand that some people are just impulse shoppers, and like to try new things sometimes, even if it costs 'em a few bucks.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> Honestly, more often than not, it's the people who already have a bone to pick with Jeff who see something like the 9-string, and can't help but crack jokes like, "I can't wait to get mine on Reverb about a week after they start delivering to customers" and "I can't wait to see it on ebay in 6 months" when someone posted their "I just ordered this. The wait begins..." posts.  Lilke they don't understand that some people are just impulse shoppers, and like to try new things sometimes, even if it costs 'em a few bucks.



It's really because most of Kiesel's customers are fairly new to the custom ordered guitar game, mainly due to pricing and availability. 

The same thing has been going on with far more expensive, boutique brands forever, but the guys eyeing a Kiesel probably aren't following Alembic or Fodera stuff, five figure multi-year wait guitars that often hit the used market, or even some of the legacy boutiques like Anderson or Suhr.


----------



## John

RevelGTR said:


> Also worth noting that when I listed the guitar in the Kiesel Buy/Sell/Trade group the Kiesel fanboys were mad at me for selling the guitar so soon after receiving it.  I really think Jeff being an asshole creates a Stockholm Syndrome like loyalty in his fanbase. Never stop Kieseling Kiesel boiz.
> 
> That Aries 9 is pretty sick though.



Their overzealous fanboys have been a real dumpster fire of a cult for years now, so hearing such an experience is hardly surprising but dumb just the same. ie- recently had a couple of said fanboys hurling slurs when they asked for stuff like the pros and cons of Kiesel these days and they weren't hearing 100% glowing accolades during every step of the way.


----------



## ADADAD

How strict are Kiesel on the non-returnable options? any cases of returning guitars despite them?


----------



## CanserDYI

ADADAD said:


> How strict are Kiesel on the non-returnable options? any cases of returning guitars despite them?


Only time you can return the guitar is if they messed something up or if there is a QC issue, otherwise....it's non returnable lol


----------



## ADADAD

CanserDYI said:


> Only time you can return the guitar is if they messed something up or if there is a QC issue, otherwise....it's non returnable lol


Bummer. Guitar has no flaws, just don't like the neck :| people describe it as a C shape, and forget to mention the massive shoulders on it. Guess I'll try to get used to it, otherwise sell it. Thanks


----------



## CanserDYI

ADADAD said:


> Bummer. Guitar has no flaws, just don't like the neck :| people describe it as a C shape, and forget to mention the massive shoulders on it. Guess I'll try to get used to it, otherwise sell it. Thanks


I mean honestly...what did you think non returnable meant...?


----------



## ADADAD

CanserDYI said:


> I mean honestly...what did you think non returnable meant...?


I accepted the risk when I bought it, wanted to double check. I'm not surprised or anything


----------



## Hollowway

ADADAD said:


> Bummer. Guitar has no flaws, just don't like the neck :| people describe it as a C shape, and forget to mention the massive shoulders on it. Guess I'll try to get used to it, otherwise sell it. Thanks


What guitar is it?


----------



## ADADAD

Hollowway said:


> What guitar is it?


Zeus 6


----------



## spudmunkey

To play out a scenario, if you were able to return it within their 10-day trial period for a "normal" build where you just didn't bond with something, you'd still be on the hook for the original shipping, and the shipping back to Kiesel. So you'd have no guitar, and you'd be out the...what is it, $45 to ship to you, and the cost to ship it back.

However, your specific scenario is a good kind to have. There's too much material there, and it could be removed. Does your neck just have the tung oil finish? You may be able to just sand it a bit (or have a luthier sand it a bit) to slightly re-shape it. 

What I'm saying is, instead of losing the money on the return, you could instead "invest" the return shipping into the work on the neck, if the rest of the guitar is a good fit.

Just a thought...

Alternatively, it's worth reaching out with something short and sweet, something as simple as "I received my guitar, and it's killer, but I'm just not bonding with the neck shape. What do you think?".

It's a bolt-on, so there's a slight chance they'd be able to do something if they are in a good mood...but don't expect it.

Then there's always the "post it for sale for the price you paid because there's no wait" thing everyone else seems to do. Ha! Not saying they sell at that price, but.... 

Did you get the thin neck option, or just the standard?


----------



## ADADAD

spudmunkey said:


> To play out a scenario, if you were able to return it within their 10-day trial period for a "normal" build where you just didn't bond with something, you'd still be on the hook for the original shipping, and the shipping back to Kiesel. So you'd have no guitar, and you'd be out the...what is it, $45 to ship to you, and the cost to ship it back.
> 
> However, your specific scenario is a good kind to have. There's too much material there, and it could be removed. Does your neck just have the tung oil finish? You may be able to just sand it a bit (or have a luthier sand it a bit) to slightly re-shape it.
> 
> What I'm saying is, instead of losing the money on the return, you could instead "invest" the return shipping into the work on the neck, if the rest of the guitar is a good fit.
> 
> Just a thought...
> 
> Alternatively, it's worth reaching out with something short and sweet, something as simple as "I received my guitar, and it's killer, but I'm just not bonding with the neck shape. What do you think?".
> 
> It's a bolt-on, so there's a slight chance they'd be able to do something if they are in a good mood...but don't expect it.
> 
> Then there's always the "post it for sale for the price you paid because there's no wait" thing everyone else seems to do. Ha! Not saying they sell at that price, but....
> 
> Did you get the thin neck option, or just the standard?


Standard neck, 24.75 scale, 12-16 radius.
Sanding the neck down myself is way too risky, finding a luthier may not be a bad idea though.
I'll try to contact them anyways, no harm in it, but I don't expect anything (and not complaining, I knew full well I chose non-returnable options). If they happen to accept it, I have no problem paying the shipping, I'd take a bigger hit selling it online (price reduction + shipping + reverb fee)


----------



## sylcfh

I know Kiesel gets a lot of flack, but I think their pricing is hard to beat. I just spec'd out a Balaguer and it was over $1,800 and not US made. I went nuts with a quilted maple top on a Kiesel headless and it was about $2,300.


----------



## trem licking

sylcfh said:


> I know Kiesel gets a lot of flack, but I think their pricing is hard to beat. I just spec'd out a Balaguer and it was over $1,800 and not US made. I went nuts with a quilted maple top on a Kiesel headless and it was about $2,300.


Kiesel has good prices for semi custom good quality builds no doubt, but balaguer will do some options that kiesel won't... They are also quality builds


----------



## CanserDYI

I literally can't make myself pull the trigger on a Balaguer. They look cool and I'm sure they are great instruments, but never touched one, no way TO touch one, even my most simple build for them cost like 2000 bucks, wait time is 6 months to a year and zero return policy.

Just too many ifs to ever give it a try.


----------



## mbardu

CanserDYI said:


> I literally can't make myself pull the trigger on a Balaguer. They look cool and I'm sure they are great instruments, but never touched one, no way TO touch one, even my most simple build for them cost like 2000 bucks, wait time is 6 months to a year and zero return policy.
> 
> Just too many ifs to ever give it a try.



I could only really see myself getting a Balaguer if I absolutely _had _to have something like a Tartarus type of shape and money was no object. The value for money really is not there otherwise. Was looking at their Diablo for instance- since I love that shape, but for the price that Balaguer is asking, you can do _much _better_._


----------



## CanserDYI

Man not going to lie, I am considering putting my Vanquish up for sale and putting in a build for an 8 string, I'm getting really used to 8's and I hardly play it anymore. Someone talk me down from this, as I absolutely adore that guitar, but seeing how Kiesel's are skyrocketing in price, my 1900ish build is now around 2600 bucks to build now, so I'm pretty sure I can get close to what I paid for it, but its just such a kick ass guitar I feel awful putting it up for sale, but like I've said in other posts, I just think it feels incomplete now that I've started playing 8's. 

Then again I already have an 8 string and it is pleasing me in every way now that I got the nut cut correctly, but I just feel so weird having a 2k guitar just sitting there not being played. I am not a collector, I'm a user, and things not being used just bugs me.


----------



## spudmunkey

CanserDYI said:


> Man not going to lie, I am considering putting my Vanquish up for sale and putting in a build for an 8 string, I'm getting really used to 8's and I hardly play it anymore. Someone talk me down from this, as I absolutely adore that guitar, but seeing how Kiesel's are skyrocketing in price, my 1900ish build is now around 2600 bucks to build now, so I'm pretty sure I can get close to what I paid for it, but its just such a kick ass guitar I feel awful putting it up for sale, but like I've said in other posts, I just think it feels incomplete now that I've started playing 8's.
> 
> Then again I already have an 8 string and it is pleasing me in every way now that I got the nut cut correctly, but I just feel so weird having a 2k guitar just sitting there not being played. I am not a collector, I'm a user, and things not being used just bugs me.



My advice: stick to returnable options. When you get it, you can decide if it's a worth-while upgrade to your existing 8-strring, and if not, return it and sell the 6 if you still feel it's unused. Keep in mind that in another 4 months, the starting price will likely go up again.


----------



## CanserDYI

spudmunkey said:


> My advice: stick to returnable options. When you get it, you can decide if it's a worth-while upgrade to your existing 8-strring, and if not, return it and sell the 6 if you still feel it's unused. Keep in mind that in another 4 months, the starting price will likely go up again.


Well unfortunately with what I've spent on my rig the past year or so my wife has given me the dreaded one in-one out policy, so I'd have to sell the Vanquish to even entertain the thought of putting in a build. I think i'm just going to let gas be gas and enjoy my 6, 7, and 8 string guitars.


----------



## Tree

CanserDYI said:


> Well unfortunately with what I've spent on my rig the past year or so my wife has given me the dreaded one in-one out policy, so I'd have to sell the Vanquish to even entertain the thought of putting in a build. I think i'm just going to let gas be gas and enjoy my 6, 7, and 8 string guitars.



I’d say definitely wait it out. You just got the 8, so it’s the “new toy” right now. You may find yourself gravitating back to the Vanquish again in time. I was in the same boat as you after I got my 2228. I was like, “damn this is so comfortable. I should just stick to 8s since it has a built in 7”…and now I just sold it to go after some different 7s 

Not that you’ll find yourself in the exact same situation as me, but you may find one reason to prefer playing certain 7 string material on the Vanquish vs your 8 string.

I just don’t play 8 string music despite trying several times over the span of a decade (and I likely will try again some day, stubbornness and curiosity be damned!)


----------



## Tree

Also, if you’re not super set on certain specs there are quite a few Carvin DC800s on GC’s used section right now for <$1k. Might be food for thought if you ditch the RG8.


----------



## RadoncROCKs

CanserDYI said:


> Man not going to lie, I am considering putting my Vanquish up for sale and putting in a build for an 8 string, I'm getting really used to 8's and I hardly play it anymore. Someone talk me down from this, as I absolutely adore that guitar, but seeing how Kiesel's are skyrocketing in price, my 1900ish build is now around 2600 bucks to build now, so I'm pretty sure I can get close to what I paid for it, but its just such a kick ass guitar I feel awful putting it up for sale, but like I've said in other posts, I just think it feels incomplete now that I've started playing 8's.
> 
> Then again I already have an 8 string and it is pleasing me in every way now that I got the nut cut correctly, but I just feel so weird having a 2k guitar just sitting there not being played. I am not a collector, I'm a user, and things not being used just bugs me.



I'd wait it out for now. Kiesels are moving very slowly on Reverb the past month compared to the past six months so it may be hard to do one in one out. I'm trying to do the same but can't move my two I have listed.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

CanserDYI said:


> Man not going to lie, I am considering putting my Vanquish up for sale and putting in a build for an 8 string, I'm getting really used to 8's and I hardly play it anymore. Someone talk me down from this, as I absolutely adore that guitar, but seeing how Kiesel's are skyrocketing in price, my 1900ish build is now around 2600 bucks to build now, so I'm pretty sure I can get close to what I paid for it, but its just such a kick ass guitar I feel awful putting it up for sale, but like I've said in other posts, I just think it feels incomplete now that I've started playing 8's.
> 
> Then again I already have an 8 string and it is pleasing me in every way now that I got the nut cut correctly, but I just feel so weird having a 2k guitar just sitting there not being played. I am not a collector, I'm a user, and things not being used just bugs me.



Don't fall into the trap of looking at for sale stuff, you have to look at the sold archives. The most expensive Vanquish to sell in the last 6 to 12 months was ~$2100 and it was fairly decked out, probably closer to what would be a $3k build now. The average is still like $1k as far as actually selling.


----------



## Alberto7

MaxOfMetal said:


> Don't fall into the trap of looking at for sale stuff, you have to look at the sold archives. The most expensive Vanquish to sell in the last 6 to 12 months was ~$2100 and it was fairly decked out, probably closer to what would be a $3k build now. The average is still like $1k as far as actually selling.


A bit tangential, but Max, are you using any particular tool to obtain that info? I know Reverb has a pricing tool, but I don't know how much info it has. I can't get it to show anything for Carvin/Kiesel.


----------



## spudmunkey

On reverb, do a search, and then click the "All filters" button, then click "sold listings" down near the bottom of the little window that pops up. It's in the "Show only" section of filters

edit: Dang, someone got a blue sparkle Vanquish for $775? The paint job alone is a $650 upgrade ($600 for sparkle, $50 for the trans blue over it).

edit 2: This same bass is listed twice, within 2 months of each other. Boy, what a different lighting makes, eh? Amusingly the "better" photo sold for $1 less...


----------



## Alberto7

Awesome, thanks! Somehow I'd missed that option. Then sort by date and good to go. I always toy with the idea of selling my DC727 but I can never bring myself to do it, I like that guitar a lot. But if ever the price is right... maybe.


----------



## spudmunkey

new Cole Roland signature model. He's had a similar Artist Edition limited run before, and this is similar with the addition of gold frets, Richlite fretboard (and you can upgrade to the ebony if you want), and his logo on the 12th (which you can cut for no charge).

It's based on the DC600, and if you compare the like-for-like specs, the signature model is $30 less than the DC600, without even factoring in the installed EMG 81/85 pickups.

At NAMM 2020, I somehow ended up sitting next to him at Cheesecake Factory for dinner one night. Man, what a super nice, smart, and really hard-working and determined guy. His enthusiasm was infectious. His music isn't my favorite type, but he's got a clear vision of what he wants his music career to be, and he's working hard to make it happen and I couldn't help but come away with a lot of respect for his hustle.


----------



## Mboogie7

spudmunkey said:


> new Cole Roland signature model. He's had a similar Artist Edition limited run before, and this is similar with the addition of gold frets, Richlite fretboard (and you can upgrade to the ebony if you want), and his logo on the 12th (which you can cut for no charge).
> 
> It's based on the DC600, and if you compare the like-for-like specs, the signature model is $30 less than the DC600, without even factoring in the installed EMG 81/85 pickups.
> 
> At NAMM 2020, I somehow ended up sitting next to him at Cheesecake Factory for dinner one night. Man, what a super nice, smart, and really hard-working and determined guy. His enthusiasm was infectious. His music isn't my favorite type, but he's got a clear vision of what he wants his music career to be, and he's working hard to make it happen and I couldn't help but come away with a lot of respect for his hustle.


That’s cool to hear he’s a dope dude. I like some of his stuff and he’s always seemed genuine. Cool to hear he’s as nice as he comes of as!


----------



## NoodleFace

He can play really well but his band stuff is definitely not what I thought it'd sound like


----------



## mastapimp

spudmunkey said:


> Amusingly the "better" photo sold for $1 less...


Those are the asking prices. You'll never know the final sale price. I looked up an old listing for a charvel I picked up to see and it was shown with the same asking price of $899 in the archived listing. I offered $850 and it was sold to me at that price.


----------



## spudmunkey

Bass version of their virtual builder launching tomorow at 1pm PST, with a live "walkthrough" on FB and YouTube at 3pm.


----------



## spudmunkey

New model also coming (don't know if it's a guitar or a bass), and from this IG post, it looks like there's also a new inlay design: circles/rings.




[/pointlessspeculationsincethebuilderlaunchesin30minutesandwe'llknowthedetailsshortlyanyway]


----------



## spudmunkey

The new model is a bass, the MJ (Modern J-Bass).

Basically, their JB/JBM model, with the Hipshot bridge instead of their other bridge, no pickguard, rear-routed controls without the control plate, a bevel as opposed to a drop-top style forearm contour, and more pickup/control flexibility.













I definitely prefer it to their old (discontinued) Aries bass:


VS the new MJ:





Also new, is ring inlays for both guitars and basses, in white, black, red, pink, blue or green acrylic or abalone, in two different fretboard patterns.


----------



## cardinal

Bevel Basssssss


----------



## CanserDYI

I like it personally.


----------



## bigcupholder

Horns look a little stubby but the rear end (bevel included) and headstock look good. If it had the horns of the Aries, it'd look amazing IMO.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

The fat rings on the bass look dumb, but the ones on the guitar look good. That’s Kiesel for ya.


----------



## spudmunkey

I was already a big fan of their J-bass design, as a decades-more-modern outline than the normal "fender jazz bass" clones, without looking too "out-there" (like their old Sekou Bunch signature, which was still cool, but way different), while giving way better access higher-up on both sides of the neck (both in depth and width), and a mroe compact headstock.









Dumple Stilzkin said:


> The fat rings on the bass look dumb, but the ones on the guitar look good. That’s Kiesel for ya.



I can't imagine they'd stock two different sizes of rings. If they look different, I'd put it more on the blurry image compression of uploaded screenshots of compressed video than an actual difference of inlays.

Remember that they use the same block inlays on 6-string guitars and 6 string basses.


----------



## laxu

I find I just don't like most of their bass designs. I would go for an Aries bass but the rest...meh.


----------



## RobDobble6S7

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> The fat rings on the bass look dumb, but the ones on the guitar look good. That’s Kiesel for ya.


Anti-Bass propaganda!


----------



## bigcupholder

Lol I was playing with the builder and I noticed they charge $50 to not install a truss rod cover. Not only do they charge for it, it's the most expensive option!

Do they do anything extra to make it look nicer without the cover?


----------



## Albake21

bigcupholder said:


> Lol I was playing with the builder and I noticed they charge $50 to not install a truss rod cover. Not only do they charge for it, it's the most expensive option!
> 
> Do they do anything extra to make it look nicer without the cover?


They also charge $50 to remove the tone knob. It's called an option 50 (hence the $50) which also makes it nonrefundable. Just Kiesel being Kiesel.


----------



## Giest

bigcupholder said:


> Lol I was playing with the builder and I noticed they charge $50 to not install a truss rod cover. Not only do they charge for it, it's the most expensive option!
> 
> Do they do anything extra to make it look nicer without the cover?



Maybe tape it off so finish doesn't bleed into the cavity.


----------



## CanserDYI

Y'all realize anything that requires them to pull it from a standard production queue causes risk of ruin and more time to be added to your instrument over others, and yes, that applies to small stuff too, costs them money? $50 bucks might be steep, but that sounds like something they'd rather you didn't do, as it's easily forgotten, then they drill holes in your neck for the cover and boom, neck is now unusable for your build and they'll either have to scrap it or wait till someone orders that exact neck. Not defending Jeff but this is custom shop 101 stuff, not anything that Kiesel is doing that other brands in the realm don't.


----------



## bigcupholder

CanserDYI said:


> Y'all realize anything that requires them to pull it from a standard production queue causes risk of ruin and more time to be added to your instrument over others, and yes, that applies to small stuff too, costs them money? $50 bucks might be steep, but that sounds like something they'd rather you didn't do, as it's easily forgotten, then they drill holes in your neck for the cover and boom, neck is now unusable for your build and they'll either have to scrap it or wait till someone orders that exact neck. Not defending Jeff but this is custom shop 101 stuff, not anything that Kiesel is doing that other brands in the realm don't.


Yeah I get it. It just seems a lot simpler than the delete tone knob or delete neck pickup options, which supposedly require someone to manually interrupt the CNC program. Maybe not though.

Also my Kiesel doesn't look great under the truss rod cover but I still leave it off most of the time, hence the question of whether they do anything to make it look nicer without the cover.


----------



## NoodleFace




----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

Jeff personally jams an unwashed pinky into each uncovered truss rod hole.


----------



## NoodleFace

Dont even want to know what that looks like with bevel delete


----------



## spudmunkey

Albake21 said:


> They also charge $50 to remove the tone knob. It's called an option 50 (hence the $50) which also makes it nonrefundable. Just Kiesel being Kiesel.


The name "option 50" doesn't have anything do do with $50 other than purely coincidence. Some were/are free, some cost more. 50 was just the "empty" option code they used to be able to add notes to an order because with their old system, if you erase and replace the text of an option, it would stay that way. So they used an unused code, "50", as one everyone would use to add special notes instead.

It used to only be 50 and it was fine even with limited characters because they were eilling to do very few off-menu requests. They've since expanded it to also include 51 and I think 52, and they categorize what goes where. I know this is wrong, but just an example: special routing requests go in 50, special paint notes go in 51, and hardware goes in 52, for example. They've also added some like SWT for Special Wood Top for the pick-your-top live videos, master grade upgrades etc so that the 50s codes are still availble since they have limited characters.

The bummer with the Oops! All Bevels! Option is that they don't offer it with chambering. /s


----------



## Agalloch

I've realized that I sort of dislike the neck joint on Kiesels. It's not that it's bad in any practical sense, it just looks visually awkward to me. I wish it were a pleasing, rounded shape, rather than the clunky, folded square thing. I know it's silly and shallow but I just hate looking at it now. Give me that neck-thru goodness.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

tofudoom said:


> I've realized that I sort of dislike the neck joint on Kiesels. It's not that it's bad in any practical sense, it just looks kind of visually awkward. I wish it were a pleasing, rounded shape, rather than the clunky, folded square thing. I know it's silly and shallow but I just hate looking at it now. Give me that neck-thru goodness.



This is why no one takes guitarists' opinions seriously.


----------



## Agalloch

MaxOfMetal said:


> This is why no one takes guitarists' opinions seriously.



100% true. We can find something to complain about on anything.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

tofudoom said:


> 100% true. We can find something to complain about on anything.



For real.

We're all guilty of it.


----------



## CanserDYI

For what its worth, I have a traditional strat neck joint, an AANJ, a slightly recessed schecter neck joint, a Kiesel neck joint, and a neck thru LTD neck joint all right in front of me, and the Kiesel's is easily the most comfortable "hand shake" just barely behind the LTD's. How often are you really up in the weedly weedly's that that would matter that much?

EDIT: And just reread and realized you meant the visuals, personally I think they look pretty cool and don't feel very clunky at all.


----------



## Agalloch

CanserDYI said:


> For what its worth, I have a traditional strat neck joint, an AANJ, a slightly recessed schecter neck joint, a Kiesel neck joint, and a neck thru LTD neck joint all right in front of me, and the Kiesel's is easily the most comfortable "hand shake" just barely behind the LTD's. How often are you really up in the weedly weedly's that that would matter that much?
> 
> EDIT: And just reread and realized you meant the visuals, personally I think they look pretty cool and don't feel very clunky at all.




Oh yeah, it's a great neck joint. My opinion is totally surface-level and ridiculous. And it's not like I wouldn't buy one of their bolt-ons because of it (I have). I just kind of hate looking at it. Good thing it's on the back.


----------



## spudmunkey

Something I've always wondered: does someone have a design patent on a rounded corner heel with the "bevel style" heel slope? Or if maybe is it a side effect of only needing one program for left or right handed necks? Otherwise that heel part of the neck would need to be angled to not look goofy, and that would double the number of needed neck programs.


----------



## laxu

spudmunkey said:


> Something I've always wondered: does someone have a design patent on a rounded corner heel with the "bevel style" heel slope? Or if maybe is it a side effect of only needing one program for left or right handed necks? Otherwise that heel part of the neck would need to be angled to not look goofy, and that would double the number of needed neck programs.
> 
> View attachment 105895


I don't think there is any patent, it's used by a lot of brands.

You might be right that it could be a manufacturing process thing. Might be easier to make that with a CNC over more complex contoured curves.

Personally I like the heel on my Kiesel Aries AM7. It does not get in the way at all. I think it's better than the Fender Ultra style "plate plus contoured edge" on my Carvin C66.


----------



## olejason

Agreed, the Kiesel heel feels really good and doesn't get in the way at all when playing up high. Personally I find some rounded heels to feel a little weird even though they _look_ like they have better ergonomics.


----------



## Albake21

Can also add to this, the Kiesel neck heel is one of the most comfortable bolt ons I've played. With that said, I'm still in the camp with wanting to changing the look of it. Even though it may be the most comfortable production neck heel, it's also one of the most ugly looking ones.


----------



## RobDobble6S7

New model in the configurator: Ares Titanium.
There's a scalloped fretboard option now. Very interesting...


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

I dig the new model.


----------



## spudmunkey

Yeah, the scalloped fretboard addition was mentioned in the live vid a few mins ago. It's only on the builder on the Aries models, and no lefty multiscale. It's $400, and the full fretboard. He didn't mention if they would still do the top 4, or if they will still do it on other models for the additional programming fee, again like they have for the last year or two.

Has Ibanez ever made an RGD with a pickguard

The new bepickguarded Aries variant:

Bolt-on only
24 fret only
No bevel delete
HH or HSH only

6-string:
25.5" scale
Hipshot fixed, Kiesel Trem or Floyd

7-string:
25.5", 27" or Multiscale
Hipshot fixed, Kiesel Trem

8-string:
27" or Multiscale
Hipshot Fixed (No Fishmans, because the soapbar config would conflict with the deep and scooped fret access cutaway)


----------



## CanserDYI

Aw fuck yeah, that's TIGHT. I really enjoy it. I've always thought Kiesel needed more pickguarded models.


----------



## pahulkster

Option 50 on the scallops?


----------



## spudmunkey

pahulkster said:


> Option 50 on the scallops?


No, it's an official option, but if you mean does it come with a 10-day trial period, no it doesn't.


----------



## Albake21

The pickguard actually looks pretty nice on an Aries, but why make a whole new model if it's no different from a normal Aries other than the pickguard? Why not just make it an option for the Aries?


----------



## CanserDYI

Ngl I'm stoked for this, I think I'm gonna do one this year.

Its giving me Aries meets RG meets PRS Mira, I really never liked the Aries much, but wowza, with a pickguard, muah.


----------



## spudmunkey

Albake21 said:


> The pickguard actually looks pretty nice on an Aries, but why make a whole new model if it's no different from a normal Aries other than the pickguard? Why not just make it an option for the Aries?



They did the same thing a couple decades ago with the Bolt and Bolt Plus. The only real difference was the pickguard.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

CanserDYI said:


> Ngl I'm stoked for this, I think I'm gonna do one this year.
> 
> Its giving me Aries meets RG meets PRS Mira, I really never liked the Aries much, but wowza, with a pickguard, muah.


I agree with you 100% the pickguard smooths out the ugliness of the Aries.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Per usual: no Floyd, no care. 

I suppose Hipshot could make a decent locker if they wanted, which they don't.


----------



## bigcupholder

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> I agree with you 100% the pickguard smooths out the ugliness of the Aries.


I think it actually makes it worse. There's even more clashing body lines now. But I've always been curious to try one regardless just to see how comfy the bezel is on the forearm


----------



## Stuck_in_a_dream

MaxOfMetal said:


> Per usual: no Floyd, no care.
> 
> I suppose Hipshot could make a decent locker if they wanted, which they don't.


The yellow one in the pic has a Floyd, u mean on 7s?


----------



## RadoncROCKs

bigcupholder said:


> I think it actually makes it worse. There's even more clashing body lines now. But I've always been curious to try one regardless just to see how comfy the bezel is on the forearm



The bevel is incredibly comfy, I have a neck thru Aries and it's the most comfortable guitar I own by a lot


----------



## xzacx

MaxOfMetal said:


> Per usual: no Floyd, no care.
> 
> I suppose Hipshot could make a decent locker if they wanted, which they don't.


A scalloped 7 with a Floyd might be the one thing to get me to buy a Kiesel too.


----------



## MrWulf

Yeap, no Floyd no care. Would love to order a DC727 or Aries 7 string with Floyd but just Hipshot so lol.


----------



## Avedas

The pickguard looks silly on the multiscale 7 where the bridge pickup is slanted but the pickguard isn't. They did it right on the 8 string though, so I don't really understand why that happened with the 7.

Overall the pickguard fits a lot better than I would have imagined. I'm not really a pickguard guy though so not for me.


----------



## trem licking

Kiesel is a semi custom company. Bring back the goddamn floyd on 7s and for the love of christ make it an option on 8s


----------



## ian540s

trem licking said:


> Kiesel is a semi custom company. Bring back the goddamn floyd on 7s and for the love of christ make it an option on 8s


The hair stands up on my neck when I hear the word custom throw around so easily... if you watch a live stream it's basically an hour of him saying what they won't do. 
No 22 fret, no Fishmans, no this, no that.. then it's not custom, it's what parts you already have Lego'd together.


----------



## trem licking

ian540s said:


> The hair stands up on my neck when I hear the word custom throw around so easily... if you watch a live stream it's basically an hour of him saying what they won't do.
> No 22 fret, no Fishmans, no this, no that.. then it's not custom, it's what parts you already have Lego'd together.


yeah, that's what SEMI-custom means... but leaving out floyds for the most part is lame as hell. floyd rose is one of THEE bridges available on most guitars all over the world. I did not understand that move to delete floyds from 7 strings. Jeff claimed it was lack of sales but i find that hard to believe


----------



## mbardu

ian540s said:


> The hair stands up on my neck when I hear the word custom throw around so easily... if you watch a live stream it's basically an hour of him saying what they won't do.
> No 22 fret, no Fishmans, no this, no that.. then it's not custom, it's what parts you already have Lego'd together.



Funny thing is that they do offer 22 frets and Fishmans, so those are weird choices for your examples 




That said, doesn't change the point of what "semi-custom" means. They don't pretend to do _everything_.
Which is not unique to them...and they're not the "worst". Unlike such a 22-fret Aries with Fishman pickups, someone like Suhr is _not _going to build you a 22-fret Modern with Fishmans.


----------



## CanserDYI

mbardu said:


> Funny thing is that they do offer 22 frets and Fishmans, so those are weird choices for your examples
> 
> View attachment 106084
> 
> 
> That said, doesn't change the point of what "semi-custom" means. They don't pretend to do _everything_.
> Which is not unique to them...and they're not the "worst". Unlike such a 22-fret Aries with Fishman pickups, someone like Suhr is _not _going to build you a 22-fret Modern with Fishmans.


He's referencing the newest aries titanium which Jeff explicitly mentioned you cannot get 22 fret, nor Fishmans in the 8 string model.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

trem licking said:


> yeah, that's what SEMI-custom means... but leaving out floyds for the most part is lame as hell. floyd rose is one of THEE bridges available on most guitars all over the world. I did not understand that move to delete floyds from 7 strings. Jeff claimed it was lack of sales but i find that hard to believe


Him phasing out Floyd 7’s means I don’t consider them for anything other than 6 strings.


----------



## John

ian540s said:


> The hair stands up on my neck when I hear the word custom throw around so easily... if you watch a live stream it's basically an hour of him saying what they won't do.
> No 22 fret, no Fishmans, no this, no that.. then it's not custom, it's what parts you already have Lego'd together.



Indeed. What makes it even more awkward is they have some very vocal fanboys that will (and continue to) complain and stubbornly insist otherwise.


----------



## spudmunkey

Isn't the question of "custom shop or not?" just where you'll put your own personal (basically arbitrary) line in the sand?

Are there any "custom shops" that do 100% of all requests, including custom shapes, whatever one-off hardware someone wants, non-standard pickups and electronics, illogical backwards multiscales? If so, they could all probably be counted on one hand. So if a shop doesn't build customer's own body shapes...does that make them no longer custom? What about not re-designing their neck angle to support a different bridge? What about not working with piezo electronics? Or if they won't do crackle paint jobs? If yes those still would count, and Kiesel doesn't count, then it's just a matter of where you draw your own personal line, then.

If you go to a pizza place and they say they can custom make you a pizza, and show you a menu of the available crusts, sizes, cheese, toppings and sauces, if they don't have honey calabrese sausage or kimchi and won't make it in-house, do they no longer get to claim "custom pizzas"?

Edit: note: I want to make sure that the above doesn't come across as chest-pokey or antagonistic. I'm genuinely curious about the conversation.


----------



## CapinCripes

They cut themselves out if the 7 string game for me by not doing Floyd's. I don't understand the appeal of the non locking trem fad especially on 7s. Floyd's take having an improperly cut nut out of the equation and it's pretty set and forget minus some fine tuning till next string change. I don't buy the simplicity argument as evertunes are even more of a mess with that than Floyd's and they seem be everywhere. The Aires titanium feels like it could be "we can't make you a custom UV but we can get you close" of the kiesel lineup but they just refuse to position it that way because of their lack of 7 string Floyd's


----------



## CanserDYI

The amount of Floyd love in this community here is making me rethink my opinion of them after not using one for 15 years.


----------



## CapinCripes

CanserDYI said:


> The amount of Floyd love in this community here is making me rethink my opinion of them after not using one for 15 years.


Id compare it to coffee. Some people like their coffee black and that's fine but if your going to want creamer your going to be disappointed if your only offered sugar free non dairy creamer substitute.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

spudmunkey said:


> Isn't the question of "custom shop or not?" just where you'll put your own personal (basically arbitrary) line in the sand?
> 
> Are there any "custom shops" that do 100% of all requests, including custom shapes, whatever one-off hardware someone wants, non-standard pickups and electronics, illogical backwards multiscales? If so, they could all probably be counted on one hand. So if a shop doesn't build customer's own body shapes...does that make them no longer custom? What about not re-designing their neck angle to support a different bridge? What about not working with piezo electronics? Or if they won't do crackle paint jobs? If yes those still would count, and Kiesel doesn't count, then it's just a matter of where you draw your own personal line, then.
> 
> If you go to a pizza place and they say they can custom make you a pizza, and show you a menu of the available crusts, sizes, cheese, toppings and sauces, if they don't have honey calabrese sausage or kimchi and won't make it in-house, do they no longer get to claim "custom pizzas"?
> 
> Edit: note: I want to make sure that the above doesn't come across as chest-pokey or antagonistic. I'm genuinely curious about the conversation.


A true custom is bespoke. As in it's tailored in every detail towards the customer. Case in point, my Waghorn 8 string. I picked the scale lengths, the parallel fret, sent diagrams to Tom explaining how I wanted the spacing of the knobs/switches , how I wanted the neck profiled, had Elysian send him pickups, sent multiple mockups regarding finishes. Yeah I didn't get a totally custom shape, but I liked his sauria shape since it's a neat take on the typical superstrat (especially with the violin carve). 

Kiesels are nothing like that experience. It's pick from these options or fuck off.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> Isn't the question of "custom shop or not?" just where you'll put your own personal (basically arbitrary) line in the sand?
> 
> Are there any "custom shops" that do 100% of all requests, including custom shapes, whatever one-off hardware someone wants, non-standard pickups and electronics, illogical backwards multiscales? If so, they could all probably be counted on one hand. So if a shop doesn't build customer's own body shapes...does that make them no longer custom? What about not re-designing their neck angle to support a different bridge? What about not working with piezo electronics? Or if they won't do crackle paint jobs? If yes those still would count, and Kiesel doesn't count, then it's just a matter of where you draw your own personal line, then.
> 
> If you go to a pizza place and they say they can custom make you a pizza, and show you a menu of the available crusts, sizes, cheese, toppings and sauces, if they don't have honey calabrese sausage or kimchi and won't make it in-house, do they no longer get to claim "custom pizzas"?
> 
> Edit: note: I want to make sure that the above doesn't come across as chest-pokey or antagonistic. I'm genuinely curious about the conversation.



Nah, you're right. 

The whole "not really custom" thing is just arbitrary buffoonery. 

In literally every industry all "custom" means is "custom ordered to preference", which fits the definition of the actual word. 

Just because a specific spec isn't available on an otherwise fully customer spec'd whatever doesn't all of a sudden make it "stock". 

We only even say "semi-custom" because some weird nerds lose their shit if they can't get a volume knob moved two millimeters to the right.


----------



## xzacx

CanserDYI said:


> The amount of Floyd love in this community here is making me rethink my opinion of them after not using one for 15 years.


It's really simple to me. There are Floyds (I use that as a general term that includes Edges, etc.), and then there are trems that don't work as well. I think a lot of people just one the one that works best, and that's all there is to it.

For me, it's the best of both worlds, because if I want to use the trem, great. And if I don't, a blocked trem is better than a standard hardtail. I personally prefer top-mounted Floyds just because I like the feel of the TOM angle, but I'm not gonna get picky if I can get something with more than 6 strings and a double locking trem.


----------



## gunshow86de

The virtual builder is fun.


----------



## iamaom

CapinCripes said:


> Smart people like their coffee black and that's the only way to drink coffee.


I agree.


----------



## RadoncROCKs

KnightBrolaire said:


> Kiesels are nothing like that experience. It's pick from these options or fuck off.



You say that like there are only three options to choose from. I get that it's not your idea of "custom" but there aren't many operations that have as many options to choose from in every aspect.


----------



## ian540s

CanserDYI said:


> He's referencing the newest aries titanium which Jeff explicitly mentioned you cannot get 22 fret, nor Fishmans in the 8 string model.


This is correct, thanks. 
I've worked as an engineer in manufacturing and I can tell you if the only difference in the Aries Titanium is a pickguard, that means that Jeff doesn't want to have more than X number of pickguard programs in his CNC program bank. He probably thought of 10 different combinations and called it a day. Why release a model that works with only a small percent of your regular options, or better yet why create a new option that makes so many of those regular options unavailable. 

For some reason I watch the live streams sometimes, and his demeanor always says "buy my shit or leave". I wish smaller artists had a brand as big as Kiesel to represent without having to represent Jeff.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> Nah, you're right.
> 
> The whole "not really custom" thing is just arbitrary buffoonery.
> 
> In literally every industry all "custom" means is "custom ordered to preference", which fits the definition of the actual word.
> 
> Just because a specific spec isn't available on an otherwise fully customer spec'd whatever doesn't all of a sudden make it "stock".
> 
> We only even say "semi-custom" because some weird nerds lose their shit if they can't get a volume knob moved two millimeters to the right.



Pedantic buffoonery in the guitar world?
Noooooo way. This would _never _happen


----------



## Buffnuggler

I think Kiesel only offers like one neck shape right? You can make it skinnier or fatter but it's basically just a C. That is the opposite of custom to me. They have some beautiful stuff coming out of their factory in terms of top selection and finishing but the neck is really the soul of the guitar so if you can't control that it's really not custom, you are just choosing appointments.

That works great for some people, especially if you don't know what neck shape you like, so I'm not putting the brand down, but I think semi-custom is very appropriate. I wouldn't say every inch of the guitar has to be personally tailored, but choosing the neck shape is really the most important part of a custom build since that's how you bond with the guitar. All of Kiesel's customization is aesthetic.

Their guitars also seem to be quite heavy, I would only order one with chambering. They have like a 6 month wait time right now though so they are definitely doing something right.


----------



## CapinCripes

Buffnuggler said:


> really not custom, you are just choosing appointments.


You have discovered the carvin/kiesel business model. You get more options than most production instruments in a timely manner at an affordable price compared to a fully bespoke piece. But no you cannot customize literally everything. You get what you pay and wait for.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Buffnuggler said:


> I think Kiesel only offers like one neck shape right? You can make it skinnier or fatter but it's basically just a C. That is the opposite of custom to me. They have some beautiful stuff coming out of their factory in terms of top selection and finishing but the neck is really the soul of the guitar so if you can't control that it's really not custom, you are just choosing appointments.
> 
> That works great for some people, especially if you don't know what neck shape you like, so I'm not putting the brand down, but I think semi-custom is very appropriate. I wouldn't say every inch of the guitar has to be personally tailored, but choosing the neck shape is really the most important part of a custom build since that's how you bond with the guitar. All of Kiesel's customization is aesthetic.
> 
> Their guitars also seem to be quite heavy, I would only order one with chambering. They have like a 6 month wait time right now though so they are definitely doing something right.



They used to offer the ability to scan whatever neck you send in and make a copy of it, as well as having a few "extra" profiles available, but no one really took advantage so they stopped after a few years.


----------



## olejason

Yep, people tend to forget all the customization Kiesel has offered in the past that not enough customers utilized for it to make business sense to continue offering. The vast majority of guitar players don't obsess over every tiny detail on a guitar or even fairly noticeable stuff like neck shape or control layouts.


----------



## Buffnuggler

i like their model i definitely just think it is semi-custom at most, its basically the equivalent of fenders mod shop, you just prioritize different choices, a step below suhr but faster, two steps below schecter masterworks.

thats cool theyve streamlined their process so much and are like a 5 month wait right now but again “not enough people used it so we got rid of it” seems like the opposite of custom. its not like it was a niche option, neck shape is pretty big, but yeah to be fair a standard C is pleasing to most players and gets the job done. but if youre eliminating options and streamlining everything to pump out guitars youre moving in the opposite direction of custom.

i actually have a kiesel on order so its not like im against the brand. a lot of guitar makers use the term custom loosely, very few live up to a true custom shop experience, not a bad thing, obviously the model works for them vs runs but they do get killed on resale.


----------



## spudmunkey

Buffnuggler said:


> but if youre eliminating options and streamlining everything to pump out guitars youre moving in the opposite direction of custom.


The thing is, if they did that, to keep the shop lights on, they'd have to raise prices way higher to make up for the volume drops. And at that point, they are competing with more established names and their custom shops, as well as more boutique brands. 

Where they exist right now, using pricing as a brake pedal to keep themselves hovering at about 4,000-4,300 guitars per year, they are still keeping themselves in a pretty unique position in the market. Lots of "boutique" feature + made in the US + relatively short lead time + cheaper than, say, Jackson or PRS's custom shops.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

My biggest problem with the "it's not really custom" thing is how arbitrary it is. 

Like, how many neck shapes do they need to be custom enough? 

Who decides this? 

Back in the 80's and 90's, even the guys willing to make "anything", because it was all by hand, would still decline stuff if they didn't think they could pull it off or it would be too expensive or time consuming or they just thought it was stupid. 

Someone like Rick Toone, or Michael Spalt, or a handful of other guys, will do completely bespoke instruments, but they still build within their own sphere of familiarity. Are they not custom?


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> My biggest problem with the "it's not really custom" thing is how arbitrary it is.
> 
> Like, how many neck shapes do they need to be custom enough?
> 
> Who decides this?
> 
> Back in the 80's and 90's, even the guys willing to make "anything", because it was all by hand, would still decline stuff if they didn't think they could pull it off or it would be too expensive or time consuming or they just thought it was stupid.
> 
> Someone like Rick Toone, or Michael Spalt, or a handful of other guys, will do completely bespoke instruments, but they still build within their own sphere of familiarity. Are they not custom?



The rule is very simple, don't overthink it!

We like Schecter Masterworks/Suhr/ESP, so everything they do is "custom shop", even if it's a plain black/base specs PT/Modern/Horizon.

But we don't like Kiesel so they don't get to be called even "semi-custom", even if you pick your own combination for woods, finishes, fretboard radius, frets, scale length, electronics, bezels, headstock, hardware etc

Or at least that's my takeaway from the discussion


----------



## Buffnuggler

MaxOfMetal said:


> My biggest problem with the "it's not really custom" thing is how arbitrary it is.
> 
> Like, how many neck shapes do they need to be custom enough?
> 
> Who decides this?
> 
> Back in the 80's and 90's, even the guys willing to make "anything", because it was all by hand, would still decline stuff if they didn't think they could pull it off or it would be too expensive or time consuming or they just thought it was stupid.
> 
> Someone like Rick Toone, or Michael Spalt, or a handful of other guys, will do completely bespoke instruments, but they still build within their own sphere of familiarity. Are they not custom?



Yeah it doesn't matter at all, it's not like any of these builders are trying to be "the most custom" builder, they are just trying to run a business model that works for them. I just think Kiesel's niche is really interesting because it is less customized than most brands but they've made it work well. They've survived some bad press and seem to be at the top of their game in terms of orders so clearly its working, they've signed some great players and most people seem pretty happy with their guitars.

I'm definitely not trying to knock Kiesel but I do feel like only offering one neck shape is very "non custom." I'm surprised they've made it work so well because generally neck shape is a pretty big draw in brands, just look at Ibanez and Fender, lots of variety in neck shapes. Being "less custom" isn't a bad thing though and like others have said it's what allows them to streamline their process and its what works for them. Like you said, it's not really significant anyway, there can be variations of custom guitars and Kiesel has clearly found a sweet spot.

I don't think it's any better or worse than just ordering Musikraft necks as many builders have done. They have a cool operation and its all in house as far as I can tell.

For me personally, true custom shop is when you can build out every aspect of the guitar (not any shape you want, but every aspect of the available shapes) and preferably the neck is done by hand, which means the guitar is probably going to run you 5k+ from any of the "big boys." I understand that a lot of people favor CNC necks but I love the uniqueness of hand shaped necks and they are my preference.

One of my friends is convinced that Fender Masterbuilt necks are CNC and not hand shaped but I don't know if I believe that lol.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Buffnuggler said:


> Yeah it doesn't matter at all, it's not like any of these builders are trying to be "the most custom" builder, they are just trying to run a business model that works for them. I just think Kiesel's niche is really interesting because it is less customized than most brands but they've made it work well. They've survived some bad press and seem to be at the top of their game in terms of orders so clearly its working, they've signed some great players and most people seem pretty happy with their guitars.
> 
> I'm definitely not trying to knock Kiesel but I do feel like only offering one neck shape is very "non custom." I'm surprised they've made it work so well because generally neck shape is a pretty big draw in brands, just look at Ibanez and Fender, lots of variety in neck shapes. Being "less custom" isn't a bad thing though and like others have said it's what allows them to streamline their process and its what works for them. Like you said, it's not really significant anyway, there can be variations of custom guitars and Kiesel has clearly found a sweet spot.
> 
> I don't think it's any better or worse than just ordering Musikraft necks as many builders have done. They have a cool operation and its all in house as far as I can tell.
> 
> For me personally, true custom shop is when you can build out every aspect of the guitar (not any shape you want, but every aspect of the available shapes) and preferably the neck is done by hand, which means the guitar is probably going to run you 5k+ from any of the "big boys." I understand that a lot of people favor CNC necks but I love the uniqueness of hand shaped necks and they are my preference.
> 
> One of my friends is convinced that Fender Masterbuilt necks are CNC and not hand shaped but I don't know if I believe that lol.



Even for necks you're not getting a final carve on a CNC mill. You'll get the rough shape, but it'll still need hours of hand sanding and shaping to get the final product. 

I've been to most of the big OEMs and the larger shops. Every neck gets hand work. All of them. 

Some might get a bit more than others, but CNCs spitting out finished anything is a myth.


----------



## Buffnuggler

MaxOfMetal said:


> Even for necks you're not getting a final carve on a CNC mill. You'll get the rough shape, but it'll still need hours of hand sanding and shaping to get the final product.
> 
> I've been to most of the big OEMs and the larger shops. Every neck gets hand work. All of them.
> 
> Some might get a bit more than others, but CNCs spitting out finished anything is a myth.



For sure, the hand work is still time consuming and I don't mean to disparage builders who order necks and then hand finish them, I just really love the feel of older purely handmade necks and I think it's really cool when those same concepts are executed by high end custom shops who otherwise wouldn't use it. I posted about it in another thread but it was really amazing to see Ibanez do a Soft V AZ for their 50th anniversary, which I imagine was fully hand worked, and probably played amazing. IMO a V is the hardest shape to get right and is usually at its best when done entirely by hand.

To be fair though, as Kiesel has said, when you are ordering a guitar and want consistency, you don't really want a hand shaped neck, but for builders who have really good reputations for neck shaping and making great necks, it just seems to impart a certain character to the neck to me. Maybe it's just hype/seeing with my wallet, or maybe it's the "vintage" thing, but all my favorite necks I've played have been handmade, and of course some of the worst have been too.

I remember hearing that Charvel/Schecter, at least for their parts order stuff in the 80s, expected shops to shape the necks once they got them, not sure if there is any way to prove that, but people told me that the Dream Machine stuff was "finished," but that the expectation with the parts guitars was that the necks would come "wide fat" and then you would hand shape them to "wide skinny" by the shop. Like you said, the concept of a custom guitar is always changing! Most boutique builders I know order necks and then hand finish them.


----------



## mbardu

Buffnuggler said:


> For sure, the hand work is still time consuming and I don't mean to disparage builders who order necks and then hand finish them, I just really love the feel of older purely handmade necks and I think it's really cool when those same concepts are executed by high end custom shops who otherwise wouldn't use it. I posted about it in another thread but it was really amazing to see Ibanez do a Soft V AZ for their 50th anniversary, which I imagine was fully hand worked, and probably played amazing. IMO a V is the hardest shape to get right and is usually at its best when done entirely by hand.
> 
> To be fair though, as Kiesel has said, when you are ordering a guitar and want consistency, you don't really want a hand shaped neck, but for builders who have really good reputations for neck shaping and making great necks, it just seems to impart a certain character to the neck to me. Maybe it's just hype/seeing with my wallet, or maybe it's the "vintage" thing, but all my favorite necks I've played have been handmade, and of course some of the worst have been too.
> 
> I remember hearing that Charvel/Schecter, at least for their parts order stuff in the 80s, expected shops to shape the necks once they got them, not sure if there is any way to prove that, but people told me that the Dream Machine stuff was "finished," but that the expectation with the parts guitars was that the necks would come "wide fat" and then you would hand shape them to "wide skinny" by the shop. Like you said, the concept of a custom guitar is always changing!



To each their own.
If I'm going to buy a one-off guitar, that is most likely going to be non-returnable (except for Kiesel lmao), then I'd prefer a neck shaped by CNC 100% of the time.
This way I am sure of what the general profile will be and won't end up with something wonky because it was done by hand.

There's a point at which it's kinda better to have automation and the precision of machines to help out and not everything vintage is necessarily "better".

Would Ibanez of all brands skip CNC? I'd be very surprised if they did, but who knows..


----------



## cardinal

Suhr and Tom Anderson etc have basically the same business model. Maybe they offer more neck shapes but less body shapes and definitely less string counts etc.


----------



## Buffnuggler

mbardu said:


> To each their own.
> If I'm going to buy a one-off guitar, that is most likely going to be non-returnable (except for Kiesel lmao), then I'd prefer a neck shaped by CNC 100% of the time.
> This way I am sure of what the general profile will be and won't end up with something wonky because it was done by hand.
> 
> There's a point at which it's kinda better to have automation and the precision of machines to help out and not everything vintage is necessarily "better".
> 
> Would Ibanez of all brands skip CNC? I'd be very surprised if they did, but who knows..



No doubt, this attitude is totally legit and it has overall been a good change for guitars that has produced much more consistency and value for the player. I think hand worked necks are also more likely to warp although I can't say for sure, it probably has a lot to do with the environment they are made in, other posters would be more knowledgeable than me about that.

I do believe those Ibanez 50th guitars were all handworked, although there might have been some CNC, not totally sure though. I think all other Ibanez, except maybe Sugi, would be CNC based.

There are cool eccentricities though with handworked necks that, when they come together, produce very special characteristics that I don't know if you could find via a CNC neck, and those have been some of the best necks I've ever played. Not to go down the "vintage" rabbit hole but 63 Fenders in particular have a very unique slim C shape that fattens up but is very thin around the nut, it's not usually a shape that I like and I've never played a modern Fender that replicates it, but I've played a few 63 Jazzmasters that all had this neck shape and they were amazing. I've only seen it in that year on strats and jazzmasters, I've played AVRIs with slim C measurements but they never feel the same.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

There's a lot of misunderstanding of the build process and the role and process of CNC and hand work to unpack here. 

I really suggest reading some of Ron Thorn's old blogs about CNC. Ton of good information from someone who has pretty much mastered both.

The short of it is that the CNC is little more than a time saver for roughing in neck blanks. It doesn't have an outsized impact on the final product, because it doesn't make final products.


----------



## narad

mbardu said:


> The rule is very simple, don't overthink it!
> 
> We like Schecter Masterworks/Suhr/ESP, so everything they do is "custom shop", even if it's a plain black/base specs PT/Modern/Horizon.
> 
> But we don't like Kiesel so they don't get to be called even "semi-custom", even if you pick your own combination for woods, finishes, fretboard radius, frets, scale length, electronics, bezels, headstock, hardware etc
> 
> Or at least that's my takeaway from the discussion



Weird examples - has anyone argued for Suhr being full custom and Kiesel not? Whereas ESP lets you draw your own shape, so pretty hard to imagine anyone arguing that that's not full custom.

But yea, the distinctions are dumb, but this seemed like a strawman dig.


----------



## Buffnuggler

MaxOfMetal said:


> There's a lot of misunderstanding of the build process and the role and process of CNC and hand work to unpack here.
> 
> I really suggest reading some of Ron Thorn's old blogs about CNC. Ton of good information from someone who has pretty much mastered both.
> 
> The short of it is that the CNC is little more than a time saver for roughing in neck blanks. It doesn't have an outsized impact on the final product, because it doesn't make final products.



I'm just curious, but do you think Ron does the necks by hand for his Masterbuilt guitars for Fender? They are advertised as "built like the old ones," but I've been told they are teamworked then basically handfinished by the masterbuilder. No idea if that is credible, I found it very hard to believe. With a 3 year wait list I would assume they are really going through the process and doing it like a vintage Fender. They have a whole custom program at half the cost so I'm not sure why you would pay double just to have a masterbuilder basically select your woods and sign off on the guitar, but I am definitely curious either way.

Do you think these Ibanez 50th guitars they did for the LACS and JPCS runs were done on a CNC and hand finished or do you think they were all done by hand? I think Tak did all the woodworking for the LACS ones, seems like a pretty tall order to turn out that many hand built guitars while also running the LACS, so I assumed the bodies were CNC'd but the necks were mostly done by hand?

Again, nothing against CNC, just wondering what the process looks like for the highest tier of a company like Fender or Ibanez.


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> Weird examples - has anyone argued for Suhr being full custom and Kiesel not? Whereas ESP lets you draw your own shape, so pretty hard to imagine anyone arguing that that's not full custom.
> 
> But yea, the distinctions are dumb, but this seemed like a strawman dig.



All of those proudly have "Custom Shop" forms or "Custom Shop" builders or the like.
Schecter was quoted as an example too.
Yet the only shop that doesn't get to call what they do "Custom" is Kiesel apparently 

ESP would almost be there....but sadly they don't do logos apparently?
Too bad


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Buffnuggler said:


> I'm just curious, but do you think Ron does the necks by hand for his Masterbuilt guitars for Fender? They are advertised as "built like the old ones," but I've been told they are teamworked then basically handfinished by the masterbuilder. With a 3 year wait list I would assume they are really going through the process and doing it like a vintage Fender. They have a whole custom program at half the cost so I'm not sure why you would pay double just to have a masterbuilder basically select your woods and sign off on the guitar, but I am definitely curious either way.
> 
> Do you think these Ibanez 50th guitars they did for the LACS and JPCS runs were done on a CNC and hand finished or do you think they were all done by hand? I think Tak did all the woodworking for the LACS ones, seems like a pretty tall order to turn out that many hand built guitars while also running the LACS, so I assumed the bodies were CNC'd but the necks were mostly done by hand?
> 
> Again, nothing against CNC, just wondering what the process looks like for the highest tier of a company like Fender or Ibanez.



I know with Fender it depends very heavily on what you order. Most of the Masterbuilders have apprentices and associate builders and helpers to do a lot of the roughing. Not to mention access to the wood and paint shops. Masterbuilers will also work together on certain projects. 

But are they roughing in every neck or body? Not at all. 

If you follow the builders on social media you'll see how they work from time to time. Needless to say, there's plenty of CNC use. 

Again, all CNC does is rough cut bodies, necks, and fretboards. It doesn't actually make guitars. It just starts some parts. So there is no difference between a CNC or hand made neck, because the actual functional aspects like shape, frets, edges, etc. are still done by hand.


----------



## narad

mbardu said:


> All of those proudly have "Custom Shop" forms or "Custom Shop" builders or the like.
> Schecter was quoted as an example too.
> Yet the only shop that doesn't get to call what they do "Custom" is Kiesel apparently
> 
> ESP would almost be there....but sadly they don't do logos apparently?
> Too bad



Well it'd be weird for any of them to open a semi-custom shop since that's basically forum nerd speak and not marketing speak, but when it comes down to established definitions, I think if you can make up your own shape you're probably as custom as it gets. I don't know anything about Schecter so I won't comment there, but I think one of the top forum examples of semi-custom is Suhr, so it's weird to see it here flipped around like a double standard. 

When I read your comparison sentence, it reads like:

_It's so weird that everyone gets to call themselves marsupials, like kangaroos and turtles, but not snakes?_

Like hold up, pal. Some of those aren't checking out.


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> Well it'd be weird for any of them to open a semi-custom shop since that's basically forum nerd speak and not marketing speak, but when it comes down to established definitions, I think if you can make up your own shape you're probably as custom as it gets. I don't know anything about Schecter so I won't comment there, but I think one of the top forum examples of semi-custom is Suhr, so it's weird to see it here flipped around like a double standard.
> 
> When I read your comparison sentence, it reads like:
> 
> Like it's weird that everyone gets to call themselves marsupials, like kangaroos and turtles, but not snakes?



You're really reading waaay too far into it.
Just like the ESP part...it's just a joke.

Who cares how "semi" custom it's called


----------



## Buffnuggler

MaxOfMetal said:


> I know with Fender it depends very heavily on what you order. Most of the Masterbuilders have apprentices and associate builders and helpers to do a lot of the roughing. Not to mention access to the wood and paint shops. Masterbuilers will also work together on certain projects.
> 
> But are they roughing in every neck or body? Not at all.
> 
> If you follow the builders on social media you'll see how they work from time to time. Needless to say, there's plenty of CNC use.
> 
> Again, all CNC does is rough cut bodies, necks, and fretboards. It doesn't actually make guitars. It just starts some parts. So there is no difference between a CNC or hand made neck, because the actual functional aspects like shape, frets, edges, etc. are still done by hand.



Very interesting, thanks for explaining more. I saw on one of the videos of the Ibanez 50th collection that there was a body being cut on a CNC machine but it also seemed like there was a lot of intense woodworking for the neck shapes. I feel like with factory Ibanez guitars, the necks are very similar for the most part, I've played a bunch of AZs for instance which use mostly the same shape (vs a Wizard with so many variations) and all the AZs felt identical.

It also gets confusing because a lot of boutique builders do more of the "parts" thing where they are getting necks that have been shaped but then they are hand finishing them. So in that sense I guess it is going CNC--->Musikraft does the rough work--->Builder then hand finishes the neck and gets everything perfect. And that's pretty different from just having a CNC cough up a blank slate that is then shaped into the desired neck. It's not done like an old Fender or Gibson, but that's still basically a handmade neck. But ordering a neck already cut to a shape and then putting some finishing touches on it also seems pretty common, and is really more akin to doing partscasters.

Then you've got examples of what people were saying with Kiesel, where I've heard that the CNC for the necks, if you do the thicker or thinner option, doesn't actually change the "shape" of the C, if that makes sense. So in that sense, it does seem like the necks are pretty "shaped" out of the CNC right? Or that they don't have much ability to tailor the shapes due to the demands of the process. Seems to be a lot of variety, I'll have to check out Ron's posts.

That's crazy about the masterbuilder thing, that's pretty much what my friend told me and I honestly never believed him lol.


----------



## narad

mbardu said:


> You're really reading waaay too far into it.
> Just like the ESP part...it's just a joke.
> 
> Who cares how "semi" custom it's called



Yea, as I said, I don't think the semi-custom distinction is an important one. But I don't think Kiesel's getting any unfair treatment here / Kiesel's often called sumi-custom vs. full custom, but Suhr, Tom Anderson, Tyler, etc., even moreso.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Buffnuggler said:


> Very interesting, thanks for explaining more. I saw on one of the videos of the Ibanez 50th collection that there was a body being cut on a CNC machine but it also seemed like there was a lot of intense woodworking for the neck shapes. I feel like with factory Ibanez guitars, the necks are very similar for the most part, I've played a bunch of AZs for instance which use mostly the same shape (vs a Wizard with so many variations) and all the AZs felt identical.
> 
> It also gets confusing because a lot of boutique builders do more of the "parts" thing where they are getting necks that have been shaped but then they are hand finishing them. So in that sense I guess it is going CNC--->Musikraft does the rough work--->Builder then hand finishes the neck and gets everything perfect. And that's pretty different from just having a CNC cough up a blank slate that is then shaped into the desired neck. It's not done like an old Fender or Gibson, but that's still basically a handmade neck. But ordering a neck already cut to a shape and then putting some finishing touches on it also seems pretty common, and is really more akin to doing partscasters.
> 
> Then you've got examples of what people were saying with Kiesel, where I've heard that the CNC for the necks, if you do the thicker or thinner option, doesn't actually change the "shape" of the C, if that makes sense. So in that sense, it does seem like the necks are pretty "shaped" out of the CNC right? Or that they don't have much ability to tailor the shapes due to the demands of the process. Seems to be a lot of variety, I'll have to check out Ron's posts.
> 
> That's crazy about the masterbuilder thing, that's pretty much what my friend told me and I honestly never believed him lol.



Again, and I can't stress this enough, there is still a great deal of wood work needed on CNC cut parts. You still need to pick, cut, and glue the billet, and then work the shaped parts to final. 

A CNC is a mill, it cuts, it doesn't bring the surface to a finish level. The builder needs to sand it down multiple steps and in the process gets the final neck shape. 

Building guitars didn't go from 100% hand work directly to CNC. Various mills, copy carvers, jigs, etc. have been used over the decades, including at Gibson and Fender, who helped to pioneer their development.


----------



## Albake21

While Kiesel is _technically_ a custom shop, it's just difficult to call it a full one. A custom shop is about the experience from start to finish. It's about being able to choose whatever specs you want and to be able to work with the luthier hand in hand to make changes and wants for your needs.

Kiesel is not this. Kiesel is nothing more than a production line of legos that allows you to pick from options. You place your order from predefined options, hit send, and that's it. You cannot contact them, make changes, no updates, nothing. You wait for the production line to pop out a guitar.

Nothing wrong with that, but that's not the custom shop experience in my personal opinion. This is why so many of us call it a semi-custom shop due to not getting the full experience. Comparing my Aviator experience to my Kiesel experience is as night and day as it gets. I was in full contact with Aviator the whole time. If I wanted anything changed, I messaged them and it was done. Besides maybe shape, I could change or add anything single thing I wanted. Custom inlay? No problem. I got updates throughout the process, a personal certificate, and even now I can still reach out for anything and they are ready to help.

So in my opinion:

Semi-custom shops: Kiesel, Balaguer, Fender, Agile, etc

Full custom shops: ESP, Mayones, Aviator, Skervesen, Schecter, Blackat, etc.

Again, it's just a made up term though. Just an easier way to categorize custom shops is all.


----------



## spudmunkey

Let me throw a monkey wrench into the works:

Kiesel Special Edition:
You get more communication, sometimes get a couple of top and/or fingerboard options, a little more leeway to change a spec that hasn't already been completed, and progress photos.

But it's pretty much just reserved for people who have bought a few, and made it to the waiting list, current about 2 years if I understand correctly.

Kiesel Experience:
All of the above, plus you go to the factory and literally select specific pieces of wood, and maybe other perks that I'm unaware of (other non-build-related things like a factory tour, I think lunch, and depending if they have started a part of the build by the time you get there, maybe press a button on a machine for your build).


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> Let me throw a monkey wrench into the works:
> 
> Kiesel Special Edition:
> You get more communication, sometimes get a couple of top and/or fingerboard options, a little more leeway to change a spec that hasn't already been completed, and progress photos.
> 
> But it's pretty much just reserved for people who have bought a few, and made it to the waiting list, current about 2 years if I understand correctly.
> 
> Kiesel Experience:
> All of the above, plus you go to the factory and literally select specific pieces of wood, and maybe other perks that I'm unaware of (other non-build-related things like a factory tour, I think lunch, and depending if they have started a part of the build by the time you get there, maybe press a button on a machine for your build).


The special editions really are no different in my eyes, even with the little extras, but I get the sentiment. 

Forgot about the Kiesel experience, but it's still not truly the same. You're paying an insane upcharge and extras to get that experience. That experience is also only that day and then the rest of what I said still follows after that day. Still, it's definitely the closest to a full custom shop experience you'll get at Kiesel.


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## John

Albake21 said:


> While Kiesel is _technically_ a custom shop, it's just difficult to call it a full one. A custom shop is about the experience from start to finish. It's about being able to choose whatever specs you want and to be able to work with the luthier hand in hand to make changes and wants for your needs.
> 
> Kiesel is not this. Kiesel is nothing more than a production line of legos that allows you to pick from options. You place your order from predefined options, hit send, and that's it. You cannot contact them, make changes, no updates, nothing. You wait for the production line to pop out a guitar.
> 
> Nothing wrong with that, but that's not the custom shop experience in my personal opinion. This is why so many of us call it a semi-custom shop due to not getting the full experience. Comparing my Aviator experience to my Kiesel experience is as night and day as it gets. I was in full contact with Aviator the whole time. If I wanted anything changed, I messaged them and it was done. Besides maybe shape, I could change or add anything single thing I wanted. Custom inlay? No problem. I got updates throughout the process, a personal certificate, and even now I can still reach out for anything and they are ready to help.
> 
> So in my opinion:
> 
> Semi-custom shops: Kiesel, Balaguer, Fender, Agile, etc
> 
> Full custom shops: ESP, Mayones, Aviator, Skervesen, Schecter, Blackat, etc.
> 
> Again, it's just a made up term though. Just an easier way to categorize custom shops is all.



Right, and that's part of what's made it interesting (from this perspective anyway) to see others throwing a fit of sorts over that. My custom orders were, in some ways, like the Aviator build you spoke of. Not being tethered to name brands, there was even extra flexibility or potential if I wished over stuff like shapes. Builders like that are not quite as easy to find in comparison, but not impossible.

There's nothing inherently wrong about the semi-custom business model (ie- Kiesel, Balaguer). It's certainly not a crime to have such a niche between stock production models and fully customizable instruments. But alas as you said, they're not a custom shop experience. Certainly not for those in the market for the additional flexibility and better accommodations when that could and would be done after all.
By delving further into that category, being more specific will happen in one way or another, whether it's the obvious upfront stuff or any aspects under the hood, relatively speaking. For example, there was a lot more communication over options and progress compared to any Kiesel or past Carvin build wouldn't bother covering before or during the build, even making sure those had my approval. Evidently that's not the answer that some of the aforementioned folks wanted to hear, but that's their problem. Whether that's on account of being far too attached to a brand to listen, or realizing that there is indeed more flexibility regarding a custom build, those are speculative- can't say with full certainty.
On the flipside, at least those talking points have previously and somewhat curbed some rather ridiculous posts of the like with some good laughs along the way. ie- a couple scrubs in localized buy/sell/trade threads a few years back were getting dunked on, because they were trying to pass off their guitars as "custom made/custom order instruments" with a markup, except they were just regular old production model strats or lp's with some menial changes like swapped out tuners or a changed out pickup.


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## CanserDYI

Each instrument is made to order from a set list of options they are able to do. Textbook semi custom/custom shop.


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## Alberto7

CanserDYI said:


> Each instrument is made to order from a set list of options they are able to do. Textbook semi custom/custom shop.


This is it. Most shops operate within certain limits and there will always be things they don't do. They have their base options, but some will entertain customizations more openly with each customer.

The difference with Kiesel is that you just choose from a bulletpoint list, and, from what I gather, anything outside of that is next to impossible to get unless you have some kind of pull or rapport with them, or is openly discouraged by the company. ("Option 50s", non-returnable options, etc)


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## ian540s

I think it's interesting that other semi-custom's mentioned (Balaguer, Schecter, ect...) also sell standard line guitars, along with making customs or semi-customs. 
Kiesel sometimes does in-stock builds it seems but lack the requirement of having a standard line available at all times. 
Neither here nor there, really, just an observation.


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## CanserDYI

Man this is tempting, my wife is gonna kill me this year....thoughts on the abalone inlays? I usually don't like them, but with the tort/tropic body I think it pairs nicely.


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## NoodleFace

Not usually a fan of those inlays, but I agree they match nice with that guitar


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## Tree

CanserDYI said:


> View attachment 106282
> 
> 
> Man this is tempting, my wife is gonna kill me this year....thoughts on the abalone inlays? I usually don't like them, but with the tort/tropic body I think it pairs nicely.



This is dope as hell. It’s got a good blend of modern and vintage aesthetic. It kinda reminds me of the TAM100 sans flame top.


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## Dumple Stilzkin

CanserDYI said:


> View attachment 106282
> 
> 
> Man this is tempting, my wife is gonna kill me this year....thoughts on the abalone inlays? I usually don't like them, but with the tort/tropic body I think it pairs nicely.


I think that looks great. I had a Delos in mind very similar but in raw tone.


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## spudmunkey

In my head, I think I might prefer mother of pearl, but I do loves me some abalone...


----------



## narad

CanserDYI said:


> View attachment 106282
> 
> 
> Man this is tempting, my wife is gonna kill me this year....thoughts on the abalone inlays? I usually don't like them, but with the tort/tropic body I think it pairs nicely.



I'd be a little hesitant. I think some of the greatest clashes are the things that almost match, and it might be safer to go with like mop blocks or something that work more off the chrome and pickups. There is a bass that is essentially what you want if you want a more real life preview:







From here it's easier for me to just imagine the board being dark, and it just feels like there's a bit much going on. I love abalone on those old Carvin walnut top guitars though.


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## narad

Guess this is closer. I like it here, I think the guard suits it better though:


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## mbardu

ian540s said:


> I think it's interesting that other semi-custom's mentioned (Balaguer, Schecter, ect...) also sell standard line guitars, along with making customs or semi-customs.
> Kiesel sometimes does in-stock builds it seems but lack the requirement of having a standard line available at all times.
> Neither here nor there, really, just an observation.



There's not a lot in common between buying a semi-custom vs a stock Schecter/Balaguer.
It's almost like buying an instrument from a different brand altogether.


----------



## CanserDYI

Actually I think MOP does work real well here.... @narad yeah I think you're right, gives it the uncanny valley vibe, almost there but not quite.


----------



## Alberto7

CanserDYI said:


> View attachment 106284
> 
> 
> Actually I think MOP does work real well here.... @narad yeah I think you're right, gives it the uncanny valley vibe, almost there but not quite.



I don't dislike the abalone, but I'd say either MOP or flat white inlays to go with the pickups. That's pretty hot!

I hadn't noticed until now, but it's pretty cool that these have pickguard mounted electronics


----------



## spudmunkey

Alberto7 said:


> I hadn't noticed until now, but it's pretty cool that these have pickguard mounted electronics



Yep, front-routed, and no rear control-cavity. The route under the pickup is the same shape as the Delos, but the pickguards aren't swappable.

Someone recently had a custom pickguard made for their Theos model, which has rear-routed electronics, and while it looks well-done (made by Forbidden Engravings), you're still limited to the pickup config and control locations unless you're willing to do more permanent modifications (this pickguard is just stick on with adhesive tape, I think).


----------



## Hollowway

I’m kind of digging the abalone, actually. But, it is really hard to know exactly what it will look like at the end.


----------



## olejason

That pickguard without screw holes is pretty cool. You don't see that often, for obvious reasons.


----------



## narad

spudmunkey said:


> Yep, front-routed, and no rear control-cavity. The route under the pickup is the same shape as the Delos, but the pickguards aren't swappable.
> 
> Someone recently had a custom pickguard made for their Theos model, which has rear-routed electronics, and while it looks well-done (made by Forbidden Engravings), you're still limited to the pickup config and control locations unless you're willing to do more permanent modifications (this pickguard is just stick on with adhesive tape, I think).
> 
> View attachment 106294



That's cool. Do you know the material? Looks a bit smoother than typical pearloid.


----------



## spudmunkey

narad said:


> That's cool. Do you know the material? Looks a bit smoother than typical pearloid.


It looks more like "white pearl" acrylic, which is typically swirlier or a bit like birdseye maple, compared to the "pearloid" which is more faceted/geometric.

Something like this:








Canal Plastics Center


Canal Plastics Center offers plastics and fabrication services with a specialty in hard to find acrylic colors and small-scale projects for both industry and individuals.




www.canalplastic.com


----------



## kuma

Just to save anyone else the potential disappointment, Kiesel will no longer do HSH on the Vanquish guitar. (I pointed out the website example for that guitar is HSH, they said they'd correct the website lol.) Reason given was that there isn't enough room in the control cavity for the 5-way switch, so I'd guess the HSS and SSS configs they used to offer will be out too. Obviously the switch fits as they've done a bunch like this previously, and it was a surprise to both of the salespeople I talked to, but whatever the actual reason, they're not willing to do it anymore.


----------



## Agalloch

I have an extremely important question: when is Kiesel gonna give us wenge necks?! I love wenge necks. Need more wenge in my life. Wenge. Wenge now, please.


----------



## rabidwolverine214

tofudoom said:


> I have an extremely important question: when is Kiesel gonna give us wenge necks?! I love wenge necks. Need more wenge in my life. Wenge. Wenge now, please.


It’s been asked many times over the years and the answer seems to be Jeff doesn’t like working with it. Its a tough wood on machinery and the dust and splinters can actually cause health concerns. I think it’s about maximizing profit, you can probably cnc a lot more maple and walnut necks before servicing the equipment than wenge.

Oiled black limba has a similar overall feel in the hands but it’s still not the same. I’d order a new guitar or bass instantly if they offered wenge.


----------



## Agalloch

rabidwolverine214 said:


> It’s been asked many times over the years and the answer seems to be Jeff doesn’t like working with it. Its a tough wood on machinery and the dust and splinters can actually cause health concerns. I think it’s about maximizing profit, you can probably cnc a lot more maple and walnut necks before servicing the equipment than wenge.
> 
> Oiled black limba has a similar overall feel in the hands but it’s still not the same. I’d order a new guitar or bass instantly if they offered wenge.



Bummer! And same. I recently got a Schecter USA with a wenge neck and it feels AMAZING. Love that thing. And I've played a few multi-ply necks that include wenge (e.g. Mayones) and they feel phenomenal. I wish I could get a Kiesel with one.


----------



## RadoncROCKs

tofudoom said:


> I have an extremely important question: when is Kiesel gonna give us wenge necks?! I love wenge necks. Need more wenge in my life. Wenge. Wenge now, please.



As the other said above, Jeff has said multiple times he won't work with it and to go for walnut instead.

I'd love wenge - it's one of the few specs that Kiesel can't do for me although I do like walnut. Very curious about black limba as neck option though.


----------



## CanserDYI

If y'all haven't had the opportunity to use oiled walnut as a neck material, you are missing out. It's just fantastic. Super soft to the touch, but super hard, doesn't seem to ding very easily. Has some really cool designs in it and looks great when it wears down. Love walnut.


----------



## rabidwolverine214

RadoncROCKs said:


> As the other said above, Jeff has said multiple times he won't work with it and to go for walnut instead.
> 
> I'd love wenge - it's one of the few specs that Kiesel can't do for me although I do like walnut. Very curious about black limba as neck option though.


I have a one piece black limba on my headless Delos and It feels amazing. I highly recommend it as an option. I would say it’s the closest textural feel to wenge I’ve played. I’ve played Warwick basses for years and they’re the reason I fell in love with wenge. I have a thanos bass in the works and it will have a limba neck.


----------



## bigcupholder

Wenge is far more stable than Walnut though. For how much Kiesel likes to talk a big game on neck stability, their necks always require more frequent truss rod adjustments than any others in my collection.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

walnut and limba are absolutely nothing like Wenge in terms of feel 

They make great feeling necks but they're very different ime. The closest I've found is katalox but it's even harder than wenge to work with, so basically nobody uses it.


----------



## RadoncROCKs

While on the topic, who actually makes wenge necks? I've had a really hard time finding any with the other specs I want - which is why I'm anxiously waiting for the Aaron Marshall Schecter.

I know Mayones/Skervesen (out of my range for now) and Schecter; Ibanez has their panga panga substitutes.


----------



## Agalloch

RadoncROCKs said:


> While on the topic, who actually makes wenge necks? I've had a really hard time finding any with the other specs I want - which is why I'm anxiously waiting for the Aaron Marshall Schecter.
> 
> I know Mayones/Skervesen (out of my range for now) and Schecter; Ibanez has their panga panga substitutes.



I rarely see them outside of Schecter. Mayones, Skervesen, and higher-end Legator models have multi-ply wenge necks. I had a Legator for a while and the neck felt awesome.

I recently came across this MJ Charvel that has a full wenge neck: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...arvel-mj-dk24-hsh-2pt-electric-guitar-natural

Looks pretty hot, to be honest.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

Jeff is only interested in his pretty specific ways, it’s all about streamlining for them. Wenge would be cool, but so would 7 string Floyd Rose’s. Jeff is a dingus.


----------



## mbardu

RadoncROCKs said:


> While on the topic, who actually makes wenge necks? I've had a really hard time finding any with the other specs I want - which is why I'm anxiously waiting for the Aaron Marshall Schecter.
> 
> I know Mayones/Skervesen (out of my range for now) and Schecter; Ibanez has their panga panga substitutes.



Schecter already has a few import guitars with Wenge necks: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...dder-exotic-hardtail-electric-guitar-ziricote


----------



## spudmunkey

FWIW, Kiesel's reluctance to use wenge for necks at least does come from at least a _little_ experience with it. There's at least one Carvin-branded DC7X where the customer sent in the wenge to use. I don't know if it was required from the beginning or if it came up during construction, but it was finished in satin like the body.






They have had wenge on-hand, too, for tops...just not necks. I imagine they had to be given a clear top coat, too, not just tung oil.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> FWIW, Kiesel's reluctance to use wenge for necks at least does come from at least a _little_ experience with it. There's at least one Carvin-branded DC7X where the customer sent in the wenge to use. I don't know if it was required from the beginning or if it came up during construction, but it was finished in satin like the body.
> 
> View attachment 107452
> 
> View attachment 107453
> 
> 
> They have had wenge on-hand, too, for tops...just not necks. I imagine they had to be given a clear top coat, too, not just tung oil.
> 
> View attachment 107454
> 
> View attachment 107455



Are you thinking there's an issue just oiling wenge?
I've had oiled wenge necks in the past with no issue.


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> Are you thinking there's an issue just oiling wenge?
> I've had oiled wenge necks in the past with no issue.


No, only that something may have come up. Maybe there was chip-out that they had to fill or repair with CA glue because they only had the one piece the customer sent in, and tung oil wouldn't have been a satisfactory finish over the fill/repair. That's purely speculation though, based on zero first, second, or third-person knowledge.

But the other reason Jeff's specifically called out wenge necks, is because of oils/grime that gets into the deep pores of the wood, and can smell gross. I've seen lots of threads about people reporting the build-up of gunk, but can't say the smell part ist something I've seen brought up...


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> No, only that something may have come up. Maybe there was chip-out that they had to fill or repair with CA glue because they only had the one piece the customer sent in, and tung oil wouldn't have been a satisfactory finish over the fill/repair. That's purely speculation though, based on zero first, second, or third-person knowledge.
> 
> But the other reason Jeff's specifically called out wenge necks, is because of oils/grime that gets into the deep pores of the wood, and can smell gross. I've seen lots of threads about people reporting the build-up of gunk, but can't say the smell part ist something I've seen brought up...



Now I'm trying to smell my wenge neck to see if anything's up


----------



## dmlinger

spudmunkey said:


> Maybe there was chip-out that they had to fill or repair with CA glue b


The potential chip-out issue would be my guess as well.


----------



## SymmetricScars

RadoncROCKs said:


> While on the topic, who actually makes wenge necks? I've had a really hard time finding any with the other specs I want - which is why I'm anxiously waiting for the Aaron Marshall Schecter.
> 
> I know Mayones/Skervesen (out of my range for now) and Schecter; Ibanez has their panga panga substitutes.



Balaguer has wenge as an option. I actually chose it 100% for the aesthetic on my incoming build but now I'm stoked to see that so many people like it.


----------



## Matthew Shelton

NGD!!


----------



## spudmunkey

Dang, there are zero "stock" specs on that thing. You went all-out!


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Dang, there are zero "stock" specs on that thing. You went all-out!



Soo...what upgrades will this one get?

> YES


----------



## Matthew Shelton

Well to be honest I always swap out that crappy little Floyd Rose block for a brass FU big block, i’m going to get their naval brass inserts you got a put a black box in the back to stabilize the tremolo so you can drop tune and then obviously get silent Springs but then it’ll be pretty much done. Kiesel doesn’t offer those options so I have to do it after market


----------



## spudmunkey

Some of the most amusing guitars they've put out in a while...and it makes perfect sense why.  












For reference, Puscifer's last tour:


----------



## wannabguitarist

I would never buy it, but I do love it


----------



## Tree

Those would actually be pretty cool with "proper" pickups and maybe some binding? I dunno, I'm just trying to justify the fact that I kind of like them


----------



## CanserDYI

Those are sick.


----------



## RadoncROCKs

I've been seeing some new rainbow sparkle pics from Kiesel on Instagram - making me wonder if my Vanquish is going to be arriving shortly. Today makes exactly 22 weeks.


----------



## CanserDYI

RadoncROCKs said:


> I've been seeing some new rainbow sparkle pics from Kiesel on Instagram - making me wonder if my Vanquish is going to be arriving shortly. Today makes exactly 22 weeks.


Rainbow sparkle vanquish?! Oooooo I can't wait for that one.


----------



## rabidwolverine214

Just got in my Thanos and man they knocked it out of park.Thundering low b and killer wood choices.


----------



## mbardu

rabidwolverine214 said:


> Just got in my Thanos and man they knocked it out of park.Thundering low b and killer wood choices.
> View attachment 108031



My favorite bass of theirs.
If I had any $$$ and room I'd be ordering one during their Multiscale promo.

Yours looks AWESOME


----------



## RadoncROCKs

That fretboard holy crap

I also applaud you for minimal inlays on wood that gorgeous


----------



## RevelGTR

Every time I think I’m ready to admit that Kiesel’s just aren’t for me I spec one out that I’m completely in love with. I’ve been considering a 7 string AZ but for $300 more I could get this with the aqua sparkle, reverse headstock and longer scale length. Very tempted.


----------



## Agalloch

RevelGTR said:


> Every time I think I’m ready to admit that Kiesel’s just aren’t for me I spec one out that I’m completely in love with. I’ve been considering a 7 string AZ but for $300 more I could get this with the aqua sparkle, reverse headstock and longer scale length. Very tempted.
> View attachment 108154



I enjoy trying to spec out guitars that are similar to models I like from other makers. With Kiesel, they often end up cheaper or at least similar in price but more to your personal tastes. Sometimes they're _way_ cheaper, like the Suhr Asato T-Style guitar I spec'ed, which came to like $2000 less than what it costs from Suhr...Didn't order it, but I still might. Gonna see what the Memorial Day sale looks like.


----------



## RadoncROCKs

Rainbow Sparkle Vanquish came in Saturday - Happy NGD to me! Rainbow sparkle is so amazing - pictures don't do justice.
Sorry for the crappy pics, should have taken outside but sunlight wasn't great.
It's ebony fretboard, walnut neck, Kiesel Trem in black hardware
I love it so far, plays effortlessly. After a few days re the body shape - I think the Aries and my new Majesty are more comfortable but if I didn't have those I would say this is very comfortable. Certainly compact - extremely light and the 4+2 headstock is tiny. Very versatile.
Next up will be a Crescent and Osiris in some order next year. The Crescent will be the aspirational no fs given on specs - essentially trying to replicate a PRS Private Stock. I just need to decide on top and color.


----------



## park0496

First time Kiesel owner.. recently picked up a Dean Lamb Aries and I love it. 










Can’t believe I slept on this brand for so long..


----------



## Themistocles

I forgot if I had posted how my Vader 7x turned out here. Frankly ive been playing it so much... pretty stunning result. Ill be posting a very intensive review comparing it to my original Carvin DC747, which it dethroned as my main. Interesting story behind it as I nearly died about this time last year.


One of the most distinctive royal ebony fretboards Ive ever seen and both the freboard and antique ash top have some rare flaming figuration. Finally, I have the Holdsworth pickups Ive always wanted too. About 85% of the guitar tracks on my current album project are this beast. I really wanted to put it though its paces before a full review.


----------



## mbardu

Themistocles said:


> I forgot if I had posted how my Vader 7x turned out here. Frankly ive been playing it so much... pretty stunning result. Ill be posting a very intensive review comparing it to my original Carvin DC747, which it dethroned as my main. Interesting story behind it as I nearly died about this time last year.
> View attachment 108917
> 
> One of the most distinctive royal ebony fretboards Ive ever seen and both the freboard and antique ash top have some rare flaming figuration. Finally, I have the Holdsworth pickups Ive always wanted too. About 85% of the guitar tracks on my current album project are this beast. I really wanted to put it though its paces before a full review.



You won both the top and the fretboard lotteries.
Big time.


----------



## Themistocles

mbardu said:


> You won both the top and the fretboard lotteries.
> Big time.


Well, the fingerboard was spec'd to master grade and I think I communicated the build vibe to Flock pretty well (Im a pro at descrribing hard to describe things). They dont make very many transparent orange antique orange guitars and my sense is my peculiar tastes translated to a cool build most would never go for. The Ash top looks very different in different light and at different angles... its subtle. Thing plays like a dream... the full review will get into it but I dont think it was just slapped together... there were lots of little moves and sensitivities that I notice and appreciate. They also knew I was game for some wild surprises, that fretboard fits me perfectly but some players might really be thrown by it. They probably expected me to have those kind of standards because of who I am and what I do. I speccd it so Jeff picked out the fretboard and probably the neck blank???... it carries the motif through the black limba neck. But the thing that really gets me is the playablity. Carvins were always solid but this thing being as refined a headless design as it is is very responsive and willing partner in the musical crimes I am committing. 20+ years between 7 string builds and this is gonna be an exhaustive review by the tim I get it all video'd. 

I play it every day and of my 14-15 guitars its my #1... also thanks to those here on this forum who helped me make informed and idiomatic choices.


----------



## Joomis

park0496 said:


> First time Kiesel owner.. recently picked up a Dean Lamb Aries and I love it.
> 
> View attachment 108410
> 
> 
> View attachment 108411
> 
> 
> View attachment 108412
> 
> 
> Can’t believe I slept on this brand for so long..


Did you have your lesson with Dean and receive the free tab book yet? If so, how was it?


----------



## park0496

Joomis said:


> Did you have your lesson with Dean and receive the free tab book yet? If so, how was it?


Nah, this was just an extra/left over from that run.


----------



## Agalloch

I really need Kiesel offer a rose gold finish like Aristides, because I have neither the money nor patience for an Aristides' build...


----------



## ShredmasterD

plays like butta . a gift from wifey in 2014. still a favorite to play to this day.


----------



## spudmunkey

Just an FYI: 
The AE185 has been put on "last call" notice, and in that video, it was also mentioned that the V220 is one of their lowest-selling models. If anyone wants one/another V220, get it before it goes on the chopping block if you still hope to be able to use the 10-day trial. They might just even have a hard-line cut-off once they sell through their specially-designed cases for it.


----------



## CanserDYI

RadoncROCKs said:


> Rainbow Sparkle Vanquish came in Saturday - Happy NGD to me! Rainbow sparkle is so amazing - pictures don't do justice.
> Sorry for the crappy pics, should have taken outside but sunlight wasn't great.
> It's ebony fretboard, walnut neck, Kiesel Trem in black hardware
> I love it so far, plays effortlessly. After a few days re the body shape - I think the Aries and my new Majesty are more comfortable but if I didn't have those I would say this is very comfortable. Certainly compact - extremely light and the 4+2 headstock is tiny. Very versatile.
> Next up will be a Crescent and Osiris in some order next year. The Crescent will be the aspirational no fs given on specs - essentially trying to replicate a PRS Private Stock. I just need to decide on top and color.
> 
> View attachment 108402
> View attachment 108403
> 
> View attachment 108404
> View attachment 108405


Solid walnut neck, nice. Got one on my vanquish too and it's my favorite feeling neck I have.


----------



## Themistocles

CanserDYI said:


> Solid walnut neck, nice. Got one on my vanquish too and it's my favorite feeling neck I have.


probably what I try for my next build but I loved the 1 piece limba neck so I think I like the pores.... kinda done with maple... nothing against it but im never looking for it now.


----------



## CanserDYI

Themistocles said:


> probably what I try for my next build but I loved the 1 piece limba neck so I think I like the pores.... kinda done with maple... nothing against it but im never looking for it now.


I think you'll like it, it's actually surprisingly chatoyant too, the light catches it in cool ways. On top of looking cool, it's smooth as silk, and my hand just flies over it.


----------



## RadoncROCKs

I want to give the one piece limba neck a try as it seems closer to wenge from a feel perspective from everything I've read

But now I know that walnut is awesome it'll be hard to change. My Aries has a three piece walnut purpleheart and the Vanquish with one piece walnut they are both amazing. Only thing I've felt similar is my Ibanez RGA Axion panga-panga/walnut neck.

Kiesel may have its haters but they make some great stuff and I love their customization options.

I really want a Skervesen or Mayones but the sticker shock freezes me when I realize I can get 2-3 Kiesels for the price in half the time and they are a known quantity.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

RadoncROCKs said:


> I want to give the one piece limba neck a try as it seems closer to wenge from a feel perspective from everything I've read
> 
> But now I know that walnut is awesome it'll be hard to change. My Aries has a three piece walnut purpleheart and the Vanquish with one piece walnut they are both amazing. Only thing I've felt similar is my Ibanez RGA Axion panga-panga/walnut neck.
> 
> Kiesel may have its haters but they make some great stuff and I love their customization options.
> 
> I really want a Skervesen or Mayones but the sticker shock freezes me when I realize I can get 2-3 Kiesels for the price in half the time and they are a known quantity.


I have limba and wenge necks. They're not similar in feel at all. Wenge is much more porous and stiff. limba is very smooth and tight grained comparatively.


----------



## Hollowway

KnightBrolaire said:


> I have limba and wenge necks. They're not similar in feel at all. Wenge is much more porous and stiff. limba is very smooth and tight grained comparatively.


Yeah, I was going to hop on here and say the same thing. Limba feels more any other dense grained wood, like maple or ebony, than wenge.


----------



## RadoncROCKs

Well that's very helpful and I'll stick with walnut haha saves me a few Gs of experimentation


----------



## ExMachina

Got this back in April. First new guitar since I was a young lad, jumped straight from 6 to 8 strings. Can't complain about anything, major upgrade from my old epiphone. Now I just need to get a second one as a backup, maybe in orange or something.


----------



## mbardu

ExMachina said:


> Maybe in orange or something.


I like the way you think


----------



## yanlin

How's the QC lately? better/worse/the same?


----------



## CanserDYI

yanlin said:


> How's the QC lately? better/worse/the same?


I got mine last July and there was literally not a thing wrong with it and here we are almost a year later and it hasn't moved a at all and plays as good as the day I opened it.  apparently ymmv.


----------



## ExMachina

In case anyone was wondering. yep, that's the Dean Lamb artist series above.


----------



## NoodleFace

Aries vs dc727?

I have an Aries 7 with the thinner neck profile and I really love it. It's a mainstay in my collection. 

A guy on FB has a DC727 for sale for an attractive price that looks nice (carving). 

How do those things feel compared to Aries? Much thicker neck? Thinner?

Big difference is it's neckthru and has two humbuckers.


----------



## CanserDYI

NoodleFace said:


> Aries vs dc727?
> 
> I have an Aries 7 with the thinner neck profile and I really love it. It's a mainstay in my collection.
> 
> A guy on FB has a DC727 for sale for an attractive price that looks nice (carving).
> 
> How do those things feel compared to Aries? Much thicker neck? Thinner?
> 
> Big difference is it's neckthru and has two humbuckers.


Pretty sure they only have 3 neck profiles at Kiesel/Carvin. The regular then an option to go thinner or thicker. So unless noted with that feature, I'd say it's probably pretty dang close.


----------



## NoodleFace

That's what I figured. Only other concern is I think the carvins used licensed Floyd's


----------



## spudmunkey

They were a licensed trem (I believe made by Ping) for most of their life, but there was some overlap with Carvin-branded 7s and the Original 1000 they switched to for a while.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

NoodleFace said:


> Aries vs dc727?
> 
> I have an Aries 7 with the thinner neck profile and I really love it. It's a mainstay in my collection.
> 
> A guy on FB has a DC727 for sale for an attractive price that looks nice (carving).
> 
> How do those things feel compared to Aries? Much thicker neck? Thinner?
> 
> Big difference is it's neckthru and has two humbuckers.





CanserDYI said:


> Pretty sure they only have 3 neck profiles at Kiesel/Carvin. The regular then an option to go thinner or thicker. So unless noted with that feature, I'd say it's probably pretty dang close.



It really depends on how old it is. 

Old pre-Kiesel DC7x7 models had rounder, more "C" shaped, medium-thin necks. Not too thick, not too thin. They felt a little wider and heftier than more recent stuff. 

I think if you like the current, "regular", profile you'll find them adequate.



NoodleFace said:


> That's what I figured. Only other concern is I think the carvins used licensed Floyd's



They're not bad. On par with the 1000 series Korean OFR stuff on everything these days, just a bit uglier and finding replacement parts can be hit or miss.


----------



## NoodleFace

Thanks for the info. 

Just something to consider when I send this lemon of an RG back. Pretty nice one for sale on Facebook


----------



## spudmunkey

NoodleFace said:


> Thanks for the info.
> 
> Just something to consider when I send this lemon of an RG back. Pretty nice one for sale on Facebook
> 
> View attachment 109034


Here is the original purchaser's NGD post over on the carvin/kiesel forum:





Feel like a real member: 1st Carvin is here! Bump weekend - KieselGuitarsBBS.com







www.kieselguitarsbbs.com






This thread was when he ordered the guitar, with the option specs: https://www.kieselguitarsbbs.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=32002&p=371449#p371449

I've never owned a Carvin 7, so I can't speak from experience, but a common refrain about their guitars from this era is that the pickup cavities are tiny. 

He went with the active system which is just an active preamp: the pickups are still their normal passive pickups (I don't remember if they would be the C26 or D26 at this time...if I understand correctly, the later D26 were effectively the same pickups as the C26, just a tiny bit larger). This is important because when you start fiddling with the controls, if you just "dime" every knob, you'll actually be applying a full-throttle boost to two of them, which you may not want.


----------



## NoodleFace

spudmunkey said:


> Here is the original purchaser's NGD post over on the carvin/kiesel forum:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Feel like a real member: 1st Carvin is here! Bump weekend - KieselGuitarsBBS.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kieselguitarsbbs.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This thread was when he ordered the guitar, with the option specs: https://www.kieselguitarsbbs.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=32002&p=371449#p371449
> 
> I've never owned a Carvin 7, so I can't speak from experience, but a common refrain about their guitars from this era is that the pickup cavities are tiny.
> 
> He went with the active system which is just an active preamp: the pickups are still their normal passive pickups (I don't remember if they would be the C26 or D26 at this time...if I understand correctly, the later D26 were effectively the same pickups as the C26, just a tiny bit larger). This is important because when you start fiddling with the controls, if you just "dime" every knob, you'll actually be applying a full-throttle boost to two of them, which you may not want.
> View attachment 109041


This is one of the most informative posts Ive received on this forum. Thanks a lot man!


----------



## Bassnguitar

Does kiesel roll fretboard edges?


----------



## spudmunkey

Bassnguitar said:


> Does kiesel roll fretboard edges?


No, not really. Softer than some edges I've played, but wouldn't consider them "rolled". From 2020:


----------



## Alberto7

NoodleFace said:


> Aries vs dc727?
> 
> I have an Aries 7 with the thinner neck profile and I really love it. It's a mainstay in my collection.
> 
> A guy on FB has a DC727 for sale for an attractive price that looks nice (carving).
> 
> How do those things feel compared to Aries? Much thicker neck? Thinner?
> 
> Big difference is it's neckthru and has two humbuckers.


Can't really tell you exactly as the only Carvin/Kiesel I have ever played is my own DC727 I got in 2010.

Extremely stable and well built instrument. It (sadly) went over a year in its case, unplayed, at one point, and when I finally took it out, it was still decently in tune and the neck hadn't moved much at all. It survived a full Canadian winter like that.

The fretwork is pretty great, and the neck shape feels nice. Just as Max said, medium sized, full C shape that's nice to grip. Very inoffensive.

Mine came with C26 humbuckers, and I replaced the bridge pickup with a D-Sonic 7. Not much had to be done to it except drill a new hole for one of the mounting screws, but it's a tight fit. The C26s have two screws on one side to prevent the pickup from rocking back and forth within the cavity.


----------



## Hoss632

yanlin said:


> How's the QC lately? better/worse/the same?


They have their moments. Like with this guitar that's available in their in stock section. One of the admins in the group who also works at Kiesel said that the difference in the color is likely accurate and not due to the lighting. If that's the case, as a custom shop IMO something like this shouldn't even be acceptable. I'd like to see a pic of it at some point just in normal light without editing.


----------



## RadoncROCKs

I saw that one in stock and had a quick GAS moment before the headstock wtf realization


----------



## ExMachina

I'm okay with them selling it as long as theyre honest about the flaws.


----------



## Albake21

Hoss632 said:


> They have their moments. Like with this guitar that's available in their in stock section. One of the admins in the group who also works at Kiesel said that the difference in the color is likely accurate and not due to the lighting. If that's the case, as a custom shop IMO something like this shouldn't even be acceptable. I'd like to see a pic of it at some point just in normal light without editing.
> View attachment 109176


Is that aurora blue? I ordered an Aries 7 back in 2018 with that color and it came out pretty close to this. Maybe not as bad as that example, but pretty close. I actually ended up returning it for that very reason. Aurora blue looks completely different on camera with good lighting vs in person.

I'm cool with them selling these as a b-stock or as a defect, but that's the problem... they don't say anything about it. They took my Aries 7, threw it into the in stock and called it brand new, no issues. Same thing happened with my first Kiesel back in 2016 with an in stock. There was a huge paint mark on the back, but to me, it looked like it was light ring from the camera lighting... I was wrong. No mention of it anywhere.


----------



## NoodleFace

One last question for @MaxOfMetal or @spudmunkey - if it turns out I don't like that licensed floyds, are there drop in replacements? Not sure the post dimensions compared to an OFR/1000


----------



## spudmunkey

NoodleFace said:


> One last question for @MaxOfMetal or @spudmunkey - if it turns out I don't like that licensed floyds, are there drop in replacements? Not sure the post dimensions compared to an OFR/1000



There have been a couple of people on their BBS who have swapped out the bridges for 7-string OFR's, and they didn't require major surgery, but weren't "a toddler could do it" easy.



> It's almost a drop-in swap. The Floyd needed the treble-side hook and front of the baseplate to be ground back a bit for proper clearance though.





> I also got hardened posts, as the originals apparently don't hold up to the much harder steel knives of the OFR.





> The major differences are:
> 
> 1) String spacing. The LFR is a tiny bit narrower. I prefer this, as string skipping is faster.
> 2) The springs on the OFR are spongier and less stiff. I use these on my LFR now.
> 3) The gold plating is better on the OFR. The LFR's gold wears REALLY quickly.
> 4) The OFR is cast steel. The LFR is stamped steel. Both are hard and durable.
> 
> Right now, I'm using the LFR because I actually prefer it slightly.



I'm sure someone's done it, but I don't recall any info about anyone who's replaced the LFR with an Original 1000, the trem Kiesel used on their 7s for a number of years between the LFR and the discontinuation of the Floyd on 7s. Since it's what Kiesel switched to, and because it has slightly narrower string spacing, it seems like an Original 1000 would be a better fit than an OFR, but that's not based on any first hand experience.


----------



## NoodleFace

spudmunkey said:


> There have been a couple of people on their BBS who have swapped out the bridges for 7-string OFR's, and they didn't require major surgery, but weren't "a toddler could do it" easy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure someone's done it, but I don't recall any info about anyone who's replaced the LFR with an Original 1000, the trem Kiesel used on their 7s for a number of years between the LFR and the discontinuation of the Floyd on 7s. Since it's what Kiesel switched to, and because it has slightly narrower string spacing, it seems like an Original 1000 would be a better fit than an OFR, but that's not based on any first hand experience.


That's ok - my Kiesel actually has an original 1000 (I believe). So maybe if I get bored one day I'll try to pop it in and just visually see what I'm looking at.


----------



## Hoss632

ExMachina said:


> I'm okay with them selling it as long as theyre honest about the flaws.


Fair point and I agree.


----------



## cardinal

Hoss632 said:


> They have their moments. Like with this guitar that's available in their in stock section. One of the admins in the group who also works at Kiesel said that the difference in the color is likely accurate and not due to the lighting. If that's the case, as a custom shop IMO something like this shouldn't even be acceptable. I'd like to see a pic of it at some point just in normal light without editing.
> View attachment 109176


Nice looking guitar. I'd get over the mismatched headstock.


----------



## spudmunkey

What's weird about that one, is when you search "Aurora", there are two distinct looks. A punchy sort if aqua, and a duster light blue. This guitar seems to have both. Since it's a bolt-on, I wonder if the body and headstock were finished by two different people, and maybe they are each following a different recipe?


----------



## RadoncROCKs

spudmunkey said:


> What's weird about that one, is when you search "Aurora", there are two distinct looks. A punchy sort if aqua, and a duster light blue. This guitar seems to have both. Since it's a bolt-on, I wonder if the body and headstock were finished by two different people, and maybe they are each following a different recipe?



Their Aurora Blue finish seems to be quite variable but more often than not, stunning, especially on higher grade flame and quilt.

It's one I would consider strongly for a high spec Kiesel with figured top. I'd also probably get over the difference. The lighter Aurora here one the headstock is what I see more often in gallery and instagram and leans more blue denim-esque.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> What's weird about that one, is when you search "Aurora", there are two distinct looks. A punchy sort if aqua, and a duster light blue. This guitar seems to have both. Since it's a bolt-on, I wonder if the body and headstock were finished by two different people, and maybe they are each following a different recipe?



It's probably more to do with the wood itself, and how the different pieces took the stain and filler better/worse. They probably didn't even see the extent of mismatch until after everything was cured and buffed.


----------



## NoodleFace

All this talk on my end about Carvin/Kiesel made me realize I bought a new string set for my Aries 7 that is lighter (I was using 10-59 in B, and it was hard to bend the higher strings because I'm a baby). This isn't my band guitar or anything, it's basically my home shredding guitar, my #1 really. Anyways, threw on 9-54's and did a full setup on it. WOW!

I've had Ibanez with really low action, including a RG3120 under 1.0mm. With the exception of that, I've never gotten action as low as this - and this is the only 7 string I've been able to get this low. I clocked it at a hair under 1.25mm and I didn't even bother dropping the bridge anymore even though it wasn't buzzing. Maybe if I get bored one day I'll fiddle with it.

Also not sure if it's because the neck is walnut, but this is the only neck I never have issues with around the MA season changes.

Anyways, I ordered the DC727 so expect a NGD sometime next week.


----------



## CanserDYI

NoodleFace said:


> All this talk on my end about Carvin/Kiesel made me realize I bought a new string set for my Aries 7 that is lighter (I was using 10-59 in B, and it was hard to bend the higher strings because I'm a baby). This isn't my band guitar or anything, it's basically my home shredding guitar, my #1 really. Anyways, threw on 9-54's and did a full setup on it. WOW!
> 
> I've had Ibanez with really low action, including a RG3120 under 1.0mm. With the exception of that, I've never gotten action as low as this - and this is the only 7 string I've been able to get this low. I clocked it at a hair under 1.25mm and I didn't even bother dropping the bridge anymore even though it wasn't buzzing. Maybe if I get bored one day I'll fiddle with it.
> 
> Also not sure if it's because the neck is walnut, but this is the only neck I never have issues with around the MA season changes.
> 
> Anyways, I ordered the DC727 so expect a NGD sometime next week.


I too joined the light string gauge club recently. I dunno what I was thinking before when slapping .068s on my low B/A string. 

I also have a solid walnut neck and it doesn't move at ALL even in the wild back and forth weather we have here in Ohio. Like, it's rock solid.


----------



## NoodleFace

CanserDYI said:


> I too joined the light string gauge club recently. I dunno what I was thinking before when slapping .068s on my low B/A string.
> 
> I also have a solid walnut neck and it doesn't move at ALL even in the wild back and forth weather we have here in Ohio. Like, it's rock solid.


Awesome. I actually order custom strings for my schecter that I tune down to A standard for my band. 10-70's I think, might be 9-70s. 

I don't mind a heavy low string, but I need light gauge high strings for lead playing. Unfortunately couldn't find a stock set of strings that accomplished that for me.


----------



## CanserDYI

Jeff make us a headless Vanquish man.


----------



## danbox

So what is the sale going on? Don’t see numbers anywhere


----------



## spudmunkey

danbox said:


> So what is the sale going on? Don’t see numbers anywhere


Free swamp ash body (if you get it with raw tone satin), free chambering, free royal ebony upgrade, free upgrade to the Thorium Bridge and/or Empyrean neck pickups. $50 off all 3-piece neck options, free thin neck option, free "California Burst", and then an additional $50 off these models: Delos, Headless Delos, Solo, Retro Solo, CT, CS, SH6, SH550, and the JB and PB basses.

Oh, and free "denim" finishes if you are upgrading to a master grade flamed or quilted maple top.


----------



## NoodleFace

Anything special I need to know when dropping dimarzios in to replace the c26 in terms of wiring with the active preamp. I haven't traced the wires, but I'm hoping I can just translate the colors between the two brands and be good to go


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> Free swamp ash body (if you get it with raw tone satin), free chambering, free royal ebony upgrade, free upgrade to the Thorium Bridge and/or Empyrean neck pickups. $50 off all 3-piece neck options, free thin neck option, free "California Burst", and then an additional $50 off these models: Delos, Headless Delos, Solo, Retro Solo, CT, CS, SH6, SH550, and the JB and PB basses.
> 
> Oh, and free "denim" finishes if you are upgrading to a master grade flamed or quilted maple top.


What are the master grade tops priced at? I'm curious how much more they are than the standard flamed and quilted tops.


----------



## cardinal

Hmph. Tried to spec a 22 fret Delos or Theos with a Floyd and apparently that's a no go. Tried to spec an HH Retro Solo and that's a no go. Tried to spec a normal Solo with a pickguard and Floyd but neither is an option. Totally striking out here. 

I'm clearly not the Kiesel demographic.


----------



## Hollowway

cardinal said:


> Hmph. Tried to spec a 22 fret Delos or Theos with a Floyd and apparently that's a no go. Tried to spec an HH Retro Solo and that's a no go. Tried to spec a normal Solo with a pickguard and Floyd but neither is an option. Totally striking out here.
> 
> I'm clearly not the Kiesel demographic.


It's cuz you and I keep hitting the 8 string Floyd wall on the builder.


----------



## cardinal

Hollowway said:


> It's cuz you and I keep hitting the 8 string Floyd wall on the builder.


SRLY. Where's that option? The Aries with the pickguard and the new inline headstock is streaming for a Floyd Rose 8.


----------



## spudmunkey

NoodleFace said:


> Anything special I need to know when dropping dimarzios in to replace the c26 in terms of wiring with the active preamp. I haven't traced the wires, but I'm hoping I can just translate the colors between the two brands and be good to go


That should be it. They are just standard passive pickups, despite it having an add-on active preamp.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

cardinal said:


> Hmph. Tried to spec a 22 fret Delos or Theos with a Floyd and apparently that's a no go. Tried to spec an HH Retro Solo and that's a no go. Tried to spec a normal Solo with a pickguard and Floyd but neither is an option. Totally striking out here.
> 
> I'm clearly not the Kiesel demographic.



Yeah, Kiesel is a Floyd or two away from getting an order from me. But unfortunately they're very "Floyd-phobic". 

The Hipshot trem for the headless stuff is just such a bummer, and I need double locking so the regular Hipshot is out. 

It's like they finally, mostly, have their shit together and got rid of like the only "100% no-go" for me. 

I don't even care if they went back to the old Ping units, I'd take anything double locking at this point.


----------



## jco5055

MaxOfMetal said:


> Yeah, Kiesel is a Floyd or two away from getting an order from me. But unfortunately they're very "Floyd-phobic".
> 
> The Hipshot trem for the headless stuff is just such a bummer, and I need double locking so the regular Hipshot is out.
> 
> It's like they finally, mostly, have their shit together and got rid of like the only "100% no-go" for me.
> 
> I don't even care if they went back to the old Ping units, I'd take anything double locking at this point.


Im curious Max, what would you prefer they offer for headless trems instead of hipshot? I was under the impression that if we consider kiesel isn’t very niche with options, hipshot was about the only headless bridge you could expect.

I know hartung, Sophia, and rwb(trans and s trem) exist, but I’d never expect a company like kiesel who at least attempt to not be perceived as pretty bang for your buck to have those options.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> What are the master grade tops priced at? I'm curious how much more they are than the standard flamed and quilted tops.


I don't know what they are at now, but this is where they were about 2019, so it should give you a start.





cardinal said:


> Hmph. Tried to spec a 22 fret Delos or Theos with a Floyd and apparently that's a no go. Tried to spec an HH Retro Solo and that's a no go. Tried to spec a normal Solo with a pickguard and Floyd but neither is an option. Totally striking out here.
> 
> I'm clearly not the Kiesel demographic.



Indeed. 

Floyds have never been an option on the Delos. Someone's trying to get Jeff to do it if 50 people order. He's agreed to it, but I don't see it coming together for 50 orders.

Theos: If I remember right, the floyd was 24-fret only since launch.

The Retro Solo is indeed only the one standard pickup config. IF it proves popular enough, they may add a "H" neck pickup option.

The first Solo was never offered with a pickguard, though. 

You *might* be able to get a Solo with a Floyd if you call them, because they were offered when the model launched...but only 24 fret, and there was never a pickguard option for the Solo until the Retro Solo. Otherwise their SCB6 with the 25.5" scale option (it's 25" standard) might be your best bet for a "sort-of Tele-shaped single cut with a Floyd" from them.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

jco5055 said:


> Im curious Max, what would you prefer they offer for headless trems instead of hipshot? I was under the impression that if we consider kiesel isn’t very niche with options, hipshot was about the only headless bridge you could expect.
> 
> I know hartung, Sophia, and rwb(trans and s trem) exist, but I’d never expect a company like kiesel who at least attempt to not be perceived as pretty bang for your buck to have those options.



I'm just saying that the Hipshot trem doesn't interest me as it's no replacement for a double locking setup, so while I can order a 7 with a trem, it's not one I'm at all interested in. 

That's why the headless stuff doesn't really do it for me. 

I was finally able to track down a headless guitar with a Sophia (B3 super Strat thing), and I thought it was comparable to a regular Floyd, but I see why Kiesel won't use them, they're pretty pricey and they're really into their Hipshot partnership.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Do we think Hipshot has played with the idea of a double locking system? Maybe some prototypes sitting around the conference room?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Seabeast2000 said:


> Do we think Hipshot has played with the idea of a double locking system? Maybe some prototypes sitting around the conference room?



I doubt it. Non-locking is in. The Floyd patents have been gone for awhile, so it's not like they've haven't had the time. 

I just don't think it's an area they care to compete in. They already took a hit from the widespread use of the Gotoh 510.

Hipshot doesn't really do much innovation these days, so anything they make is going to be a carbon copy of whatever is out there.


----------



## NoodleFace

I'm on Max's side

I have an Aries 7 with a Floyd and it's so nice. I know they probably have some reason (sourcing, QC, who knows) for not using Floyds anymore. But I have to think there is a market they're completely missing out on. I can't order a Kiesel until they bring them back


----------



## spudmunkey

NoodleFace said:


> I'm on Max's side
> 
> I have an Aries 7 with a Floyd and it's so nice. I know they probably have some reason (sourcing, QC, who knows) for not using Floyds anymore. But I have to think there is a market they're completely missing out on. I can't order a Kiesel until they bring them back



The official line is that the 7-string OFR has wider string spacing which they didn't want to use, so they used the Original 1000 line. Apparently sales tanked for that option once they started offering the Hipshot, especially among their endorsed/endorsing artists. Also, combined with some hit-or-miss quality with the 1000 series.

They discontinued 7-string floyd roses almost exactly 4 years ago (July 2018), so they've had quite a long time to "correct" themselves for the market that just wasn't there for them. Make no mistake, if it was really converting to sales and profit, they'd have kept it. While there may be "a market", it doesn't seem like there's much of a 7- string Floyd _ Kiesel_ market.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> The official line is that the 7-string OFR has wider string spacing which they didn't want to use, so they used the Original 1000 line. Apparently sales tanked for that option once they started offering the Hipshot, especially among their endorsed/endorsing artists. Also, combined with some hit-or-miss quality with the 1000 series.
> 
> They discontinued 7-string floyd roses almost exactly 4 years ago (July 2018), so they've had quite a long time to "correct" themselves for the market that just wasn't there for them. Make no mistake, if it was really converting to dales and profit, they'd have kept it. While there may be "a market", it doesn't seem like there's much of a 7- string Floyd _ Kiesel_ market.


Yeah, as much as I love Floyd 8s, even Balaguer dropped them because Joe said no one orders them. So I think that Floyds in general aren’t super popular these days, and every additional string decreases the level of popularity. Lord knows I’m doing the work of Jesus by buying up as many guitars with Floyds as I can, because I want the children of the Floyd Rose employees to eat. I do it for the children, really.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> The official line is that the 7-string OFR has wider string spacing which they didn't want to use, so they used the Original 1000 line. Apparently sales tanked for that option once they started offering the Hipshot, especially among their endorsed/endorsing artists. Also, combined with some hit-or-miss quality with the 1000 series.
> 
> They discontinued 7-string floyd roses almost exactly 4 years ago (July 2018), so they've had quite a long time to "correct" themselves for the market that just wasn't there for them. Make no mistake, if it was really converting to sales and profit, they'd have kept it. While there may be "a market", it doesn't seem like there's much of a 7- string Floyd _ Kiesel_ market.



It's just not worth having a separate neck SKU for locking nuts, or a second SKU for trem bodies, which is more likely. 

By using the Hipshot trems they can use the same necks for all bridge styles, which means they can prepare more neck blanks ahead of time, which saves labor and lead time. 

I understand why they do it, it just means I have little interest in the brand.


----------



## NoodleFace

If they weren't selling much, I understand. Unfortunately when I go 7 string there's two requirements for me: 1) a headstock, 2) a floyd rose


----------



## jco5055

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'm just saying that the Hipshot trem doesn't interest me as it's no replacement for a double locking setup, so while I can order a 7 with a trem, it's not one I'm at all interested in.
> 
> That's why the headless stuff doesn't really do it for me.
> 
> I was finally able to track down a headless guitar with a Sophia (B3 super Strat thing), and I thought it was comparable to a regular Floyd, but I see why Kiesel won't use them, they're pretty pricey and they're really into their Hipshot partnership.



oh gotcha thanks! 

Might be a dumb question, but does using double-ball end strings (I know hipshot traditional headpiece allows that) improve the stability/act as quasi-double locking since the string is at a set length (hence why it was used for the Transtrem)? I read that somewhere along the lines of "headless bridges are single locking, but Steinberger's workaround was having double ball strings", and while I do have a Spirit, I don't have another headless guitar to compare.


----------



## Seabeast2000

NoodleFace said:


> If they weren't selling much, I understand. Unfortunately when I go 7 string there's two requirements for me: 1) Evertune, 2) Fishmans!!!


Ffy


----------



## CanserDYI

Man all you guys have me gassing for 7 and 8 string floyds. Stop.


----------



## NoodleFace

Seabeast2000 said:


> Ffy


I wouldn't mind a guitar with an evertune, but I hate the fishmans I have. Just a passive guy


----------



## MaxOfMetal

jco5055 said:


> oh gotcha thanks!
> 
> Might be a dumb question, but does using double-ball end strings (I know hipshot traditional headpiece allows that) improve the stability/act as quasi-double locking since the string is at a set length (hence why it was used for the Transtrem)? I read that somewhere along the lines of "headless bridges are single locking, but Steinberger's workaround was having double ball strings", and while I do have a Spirit, I don't have another headless guitar to compare.



It can help, but it really depends on how the strings set into the bridge and headpiece. 

But it's moot because being stuck with double-ball strings fucking sucks and just plain isn't worth it, for me at least.

Tuning stability isn't the problem with the Hipshot headless, it's the feel that I don't like. It just doesn't move like a Floyd.


----------



## mbardu

jco5055 said:


> oh gotcha thanks!
> 
> Might be a dumb question, but does using double-ball end strings (I know hipshot traditional headpiece allows that) improve the stability/act as quasi-double locking since the string is at a set length (hence why it was used for the Transtrem)? I read that somewhere along the lines of "headless bridges are single locking, but Steinberger's workaround was having double ball strings", and while I do have a Spirit, I don't have another headless guitar to compare.



Tuning stability is hardly the problem. The Hipshot headless system is already better than a lot of Floyds with regards to stability. Locked at the nut and very stiff bridge/tuner assembly. It just doesn't _feel _like a Floyd, and it does have less range so it cannot do all the tricks that a Floyd can.


----------



## trem licking

Hipshot design the strings still pass through a nut. Big disadvantage there, def not gonna be as stable as a floyd out the gate


----------



## MaxOfMetal

trem licking said:


> Hipshot design the strings still pass through a nut. Big disadvantage there, def not gonna be as stable as a floyd out the gate



I have had extensive play time on a Kiesel 6 and 8 with the Hipshot headless. 

Tuning stability is not an issue. 

It just feels shitty. If you're a Floyd guy.


----------



## CanserDYI

MaxOfMetal said:


> I have had extensive play time on a Kiesel 6 and 8 with the Hipshot headless.
> 
> Tuning stability is not an issue.
> 
> It just feels shitty. If you're a Floyd guy.


Ive heard the hipshot is too senstitive and even palm mutes on it can push sharp, confirm?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

CanserDYI said:


> Ive heard the hipshot is too senstitive and even palm mutes on it can push sharp, confirm?



You say that like it's a bad thing.


----------



## CanserDYI

MaxOfMetal said:


> You say that like it's a bad thing.


Well, for me palm muted chugging is like, half my playing lol so to me that would be a bad thing.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

CanserDYI said:


> Well, for me palm muted chugging is like, half my playing lol so to me that would be a bad thing.



It's a floating bridge. If you push on it or whack it or shake the guitar around its going to move a bit. 

I wouldn't want it any other way.


----------



## CanserDYI

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's a floating bridge. If you push on it or whack it or shake the guitar around its going to move a bit.
> 
> I wouldn't want it any other way.


I guess I realized this, ive just heard people say to go for a gotoh 510 over the hipshot trems as they are too sensitive.


----------



## NoodleFace

I will say the Carvin floyd rose I have on the DC727 does feel a lot like the 1000/1500 I have on the kiesel and schecter. As far as palm mutes causing it to go sharp, I'm sure floyds do that to people new to trems too.


----------



## mbardu

trem licking said:


> Hipshot design the strings still pass through a nut. Big disadvantage there, def not gonna be as stable as a floyd out the gate



You'd think, but yet I've had better luck with some stock headless Kiesels than with some stock Edged Ibanezes.


----------



## trem licking

Well must be the best cut nuts in the business, cuz EVERY guitar with a normal nut, no matter how well cut, has went out of tune after a good floydin. I guess im just wilder than y'all


----------



## RadoncROCKs

CanserDYI said:


> I guess I realized this, ive just heard people say to go for a gotoh 510 over the hipshot trems as they are too sensitive.



Now I've been able to compared Gotoh 510 v Hipshot, I prefer the Hipshot because it's more sensitive. Easier to flutter and get subtle use. Haven't noticed any trouble on chugs and palm mutes. I love the Gotoh also. So far I've found my Kiesel Hipshot stays in tune slightly better than my Gotoh but that could be due to many other factors. 

I have a headless Hipshot tremolo and while I think it's terribly ugly certainly gets the job done. I played a Strandberg once and found that headless tremolo extremely difficult to use in comparison - it was so stiff had to yank it for any subtle vibrato; was not a fan.


----------



## mbardu

trem licking said:


> Well must be the best cut nuts in the business, cuz EVERY guitar with a normal nut, no matter how well cut, has went out of tune after a good floydin. I guess im just wilder than y'all



Although a bad cut nut or mismatched string gauge will 100% cause stability issue, a good material one at the right size will do perfectly fine.
My experience matches that of that random dude:


----------



## spudmunkey

jco5055 said:


> oh gotcha thanks!
> 
> Might be a dumb question, but does using double-ball end strings (I know hipshot traditional headpiece allows that) improve the stability/act as quasi-double locking since the string is at a set length (hence why it was used for the Transtrem)? I read that somewhere along the lines of "headless bridges are single locking, but Steinberger's workaround was having double ball strings", and while I do have a Spirit, I don't have another headless guitar to compare.



Sort of...but not really. Unless a string is clamped down, when you dive and the string lowers it's tension, the ball ends could still move/shift which is precisely what locking trems are trying to eliminate. 

The Hipshot headless doesn't really "lock" on the trem side. It's got a hook that holds the ball end...but it just hooks on. it doesn't actually secure it like a locking trem does which clamps down.


----------



## NoodleFace

Never again will I change the pickups on this carvin. 

First the shaving of the pickups was quite harrowing. The pickups are still extremely tight in the slots. 

Second I hate soldering on pcb holes. I think I'm going to have to take the pcb completely out to be able to actually wire it. 

I should've just taken this to the Luthier. He wanted $70 per humbuckers to route the slot plus 70 to wire them. Starting to think it's worth it.


----------



## spudmunkey

The few times I've swapped parts, I left short bits of lead attached, so I was just wiring wire to wire.


----------



## NoodleFace

spudmunkey said:


> The few times I've swapped parts, I left short bits of lead attached, so I was just wiring wire to wire.


Yep that was a mistake in hindsight.


----------



## Themistocles

yanlin said:


> How's the QC lately? better/worse/the same?


mine was excellent


----------



## Themistocles

spudmunkey said:


> What's weird about that one, is when you search "Aurora", there are two distinct looks. A punchy sort if aqua, and a duster light blue. This guitar seems to have both. Since it's a bolt-on, I wonder if the body and headstock were finished by two different people, and maybe they are each following a different recipe?


likely depends on the color of the wood underneath the color... that said colorshift does happen in photos where the slanted headstock catches different light from the body.


----------



## Themistocles

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, as much as I love Floyd 8s, even Balaguer dropped them because Joe said no one orders them. So I think that Floyds in general aren’t super popular these days, and every additional string decreases the level of popularity. Lord knows I’m doing the work of Jesus by buying up as many guitars with Floyds as I can, because I want the children of the Floyd Rose employees to eat. I do it for the children, really.


I prefer Kiesel's hipshot headless 7 trem system to Floyd. I have both and the Vader 7's trem is infinitely better than the Carvin DC747 trem system


----------



## RevelGTR

Most quality trems stay in tune fine. I abuse the vintage style strat trem on my Fender CS 63’ Strat and it comes back perfectly in tune for all but more extreme dive bombs. I don’t find a Gotoh 510 to be any more stable honestly. 

If you want to go insane and have it come back perfectly without exception, you really need a good quality double locker. You could carry an Edge equipped guitar around by the bar all day and it would still be in tune when you were done.


----------



## odibrom

RevelGTR said:


> Most quality trems stay in tune fine. I abuse the vintage style strat trem on my Fender CS 63’ Strat and it comes back perfectly in tune for all but more extreme dive bombs. I don’t find a Gotoh 510 to be any more stable honestly.
> 
> If you want to go insane and have it come back perfectly without exception, you really need a good quality double locker. You could carry an Edge equipped guitar around by the bar all day and it would still be in tune when you were done.



On double locking trem bolt on guitars, you can even remove the neck and trem, re-assemble them and the guitar will stay in tune...


----------



## trem licking

Themistocles said:


> I prefer Kiesel's hipshot headless 7 trem system to Floyd. I have both and the Vader 7's trem is infinitely better than the Carvin DC747 trem system


Your preference is wrong. Hehe


----------



## Themistocles

trem licking said:


> Your preference is wrong. Hehe


Maybe if you dont pay attention, because the Vader is also headless and requires a headless trem system, which the floyd is not. The Old carvin Floyd 7 I have in the DC747 isnt even an OFR.... doesnt even stand up to the early floyds Ive had in 6 string ibanez RG's. The headless hipshot system overall is a vast improvement... just having the (fine etc) tuners out of the way makes for better picking and I do a lot of Gilbert style string skipping and its just better if the tuners arent sticking up.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

She's arriving tomorrow. I was on the fence putting the order in 4-5 months back, but Jeff's been far less grumpy lately and when I called Chris Hong picked up, dude's the best. Can't wait to play it!


----------



## Tree

Lord Voldemort said:


> View attachment 111635
> 
> 
> She's arriving tomorrow. I was on the fence putting the order in 4-5 months back, but Jeff's been far less grumpy lately and when I called Chris Hong picked up, dude's the best. Can't wait to play it!


That looks stellar! Congrats. 

As an aside, I must be the only person on this site to not have a man crush on Chris Hong.  Granted I only ever had the one interaction with him, so I probably gave myself too high of expectations after reading everyone rant and rave about him here. He also probably wasn’t having the best day, though he was still helpful with what I needed. Just didn’t seem to care too much one way or the other while we were on the phone.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Tree said:


> That looks stellar! Congrats.
> 
> As an aside, I must be the only person on this site to not have a man crush on Chris Hong.  Granted I only ever had the one interaction with him, so I probably gave myself too high of expectations after reading everyone rant and rave about him here. He also probably wasn’t having the best day, though he was still helpful with what I needed. Just didn’t seem to care too much one way or the other while we were on the phone.



Weird. By contrast he immediately added me on all of my socials, even myspace, and invited me to his kid's bar mitzvah.

Really though, he was great. He was stoked that I got the flamed Koa and suggested limba instead of alder for the body and just overall seemed like a chill, conversational dude. Honestly though, my last two Kiesels were both through the infamous Mike Jones and he was exactly the same.

I think you kinda get what you give in any conversation setting to an extent, whether the dude on the other side is getting paid to be there or not.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Well I've gotta say it, and I hate it because I know that when I do people are going to say that I haven't tried things like Vik or PRS private stock, etc, and it might be a whole thing. That said I feel I have an obligation to say:

This Kiesel is as close to perfect as you can get. It's virtually a perfect guitar, they nailed it. Harmonics leak out of it, the sustain is absurd, there's literally zero fret buzz at all and I mean zero. It's absolutely perfectly intonated, to a fraction of a note from fret one to 24 on all 6 strings. The frets are smooth and polished and you can't feel them at all when you move your hand atop your fingerboard, the trem just won't let it out of tune no matter how much I use it and the fit and finish is absurdly good. There's a slight glue leak on the side of the fretboard around the 17th fret and that's it, all I could find. 

Even if I didn't want to, it would be a disservice to not share how incredible this experience has been from top to bottom amongst all the hate. 

I have a solid Strandberg neck-thru metal that I adore but I just, I can't unsee the sloppy pickup routing, sharp upper frets and choke above the 15th fret anymore. 

As always YMMV.


----------



## ExMachina

Lord Voldemort said:


> Well I've gotta say it, and I hate it because I know that when I do people are going to say that I haven't tried things like Vik or PRS private stock, etc, and it might be a whole thing. That said I feel I have an obligation to say:
> 
> This Kiesel is as close to perfect as you can get. It's virtually a perfect guitar, they nailed it. Harmonics leak out of it, the sustain is absurd, there's literally zero fret buzz at all and I mean zero. It's absolutely perfectly intonated, to a fraction of a note from fret one to 24 on all 6 strings. The frets are smooth and polished and you can't feel them at all when you move your hand atop your fingerboard, the trem just won't let it out of tune no matter how much I use it and the fit and finish is absurdly good. There's a slight glue leak on the side of the fretboard around the 17th fret and that's it, all I could find.
> 
> Even if I didn't want to, it would be a disservice to not share how incredible this experience has been from top to bottom amongst all the hate.
> 
> I have a solid Strandberg neck-thru metal that I adore but I just, I can't unsee the sloppy pickup routing, sharp upper frets and choke above the 15th fret anymore.
> 
> As always YMMV.


I think that kiesel and Ibanez prestiges maybe Eii are possibly the best value guitars out there. I don't think I could personally justify dropping 4k on a mayones etc. Maybe I'm missing something though?


----------



## Lord Voldemort

ExMachina said:


> I think that kiesel and Ibanez prestiges maybe Eii are possibly the best value guitars out there. I don't think I could personally justify dropping 4k on a mayones etc. Maybe I'm missing something though?



Yeah I don't know man, maybe. I think it all comes down to perspective. My immediate thoughts are that the best value guitars are probably something out of South Korea or indonesia, like the newer Cort line or even some well made Schecters where you get premium parts with solid construction for under $1k. Or Jericho guitars, Agile, whatever. Or maybe even things like Harley Bentons, where you get things like EMGs or SDs and stainless steel frets, etc, for less than $600. That's some serious value, you don't really need anything more than that to tour or make records, whatever.

That guitar up there was north of $2,500 and to me that starts to bridge that gap from value to luxury, you know? I think a used Kiesel that's like, solid candy apple red for $1200 is absolutely an unbeatable value if that's where you're coming from. Kiesel is kind of that weird hybrid of, can be super affordable for what it is or can compete with the lawyer guitars if you get a K series or spec out something just insanely.

Kind of a ramble haha sorry, just woke up here.


----------



## Avedas

My DC600 was like $2800 or something like that. I also specced out basically the exact same build with Mayones at the same time and it was around $5000. Pretty sure Kiesel's turnaround time was a lot faster too. For me at least that was a no brainer. My Delos was $1400 and is a better crafted instrument than any Fender Ultra I've played. Kiesel value is incredible.


----------



## laxu

Lord Voldemort said:


> Yeah I don't know man, maybe. I think it all comes down to perspective. My immediate thoughts are that the best value guitars are probably something out of South Korea or indonesia, like the newer Cort line or even some well made Schecters where you get premium parts with solid construction for under $1k. Or Jericho guitars, Agile, whatever. Or maybe even things like Harley Bentons, where you get things like EMGs or SDs and stainless steel frets, etc, for less than $600. That's some serious value, you don't really need anything more than that to tour or make records, whatever.
> 
> That guitar up there was north of $2,500 and to me that starts to bridge that gap from value to luxury, you know? I think a used Kiesel that's like, solid candy apple red for $1200 is absolutely an unbeatable value if that's where you're coming from. Kiesel is kind of that weird hybrid of, can be super affordable for what it is or can compete with the lawyer guitars if you get a K series or spec out something just insanely.
> 
> Kind of a ramble haha sorry, just woke up here.


The made in Indonesia Schecter Coupe hollowbody I bought recently is really well made, with good parts and even the obscure Tesla brand Filtertrons sound great to me. It's certainly not anywhere near their cheapest models but I'm still very impressed with it especially since I got it even cheaper as a demo model (but a practically flawless one).

But getting back to Kiesel, I checked what my Aries AM7 I got in 2015 would cost nowadays. It's about $800 more expensive now for the same specs. I get it, inflation, popularity, cost of everything has probably made them increase prices but those were starting to happen every year slowly way before COVID. Now Kiesel's value is largely in the customizability. Even a fairly baseline model with a metallic finish is around that $2000 mark and that's not too bad for a US made guitar, but puts it into competition with a lot of other stuff. Start piling on the fancy features, woods and finishes and it's pretty easy to get to $3000-3500. Definitely puts it in a category where for us Europeans it's not worth importing one vs looking at EU made brands.


----------



## Tree

Is the market for personalized truss rod covers super big, or is there one guy in my area that has a shit ton Carvins and Kiesels all with kinda cringe-y engraved truss rods? 

Every time I go to look at Chicago Music Exchange’s stock, there’s at least a few sitting there, all seemingly traded in in batches.


----------



## spudmunkey

Tree said:


> Is the market for personalized truss rod covers super big, or is there one guy in my area that has a shit ton Carvins and Kiesels all with kinda cringe-y engraved truss rods?
> 
> Every time I go to look at Chicago Music Exchange’s stock, there’s at least a few sitting there, all seemingly traded in in batches.



I always have to giggle whenever I see a used Carvin/Kiesel for sale, and it's listed as a "Goober McStinkface Signature model" just because that's what the truss rod cover says.  


A couple of misc updates:
Lots of people thought the solo multiscale wasn't available as it was de-listed from the builder, but they've since added it back. It was always available with a call-on, but now you can spec it out online.

On the builder, you can now export a simple spec list, rather than having to screenshot multiple parts of the build in your cart. Not a huge thing, but handy, I suppose. Still no way to save a build, but at least the exported spec sheet would let you re-built the spec in the builder.

According to an IG post from Steve Oliver, he has a new NS1 (the synth access, nylon string guitar) with a soundhole (and a bit more chambered-out area around it. No word if it's (or will be) an official option. I've wanted one of their old fully-hollow CL450 nylon string for years, but they discontinued a couple years back, and the NS1 is a much more solid body so it wasn't quite the same thing. With it being more hollow and with a soundhole, I wonder how much that would help it project unplugged? I imagine probably not much more, but would be curious. Especially if it could be had with *just* piezo electronics, and not the extra control knobs/switches of the synth electronics.


----------



## spudmunkey

Man, I don't normally just post random builds here, but there was two supremely hot NGD's today:


----------



## NoodleFace

Not really a fan of that wood, but the first one is chefs kiss


----------



## spudmunkey

Oh, that second one, ziricote, may be my favorite wood ever.


----------



## Alberto7

Oh boy, I'm not usually a fan of whatever weird and over the top concoctions Kiesel fans come up with, but those are HOT, and that first one is something else. That "f hole" really ties the whole design together.


----------



## odibrom

Alberto7 said:


> Oh boy, I'm not usually a fan of whatever weird and over the top concoctions Kiesel fans come up with, but those are HOT, and that first one is something else. That "f hole" really ties the whole design together.



It's interesting how different our tastes can be, I find it to be the exact opposite of your feeling about it. The sound hole is horrendous and the top is over the top. The second guitar's top is the best of these two and a really beauty to look at without being too much.


----------



## CanserDYI




----------



## Alberto7

odibrom said:


> It's interesting how different our tastes can be, I find it to be the exact opposite of your feeling about it. The sound hole is horrendous and the top is over the top. The second guitar's top is the best of these two and a really beauty to look at without being too much.


Haha yeah, it's funny. I normally don't do purple vomit burl tops (or burl tops in general), but this one I can keep looking at. I think the fact that it seems to be a more normal and muted blue with natural colored wood is why I like it. Then again, it might just be the picture quality. Maybe if I see it in person I'll hate it, who knows.

EDIT: Agreed on ziricote in general. I've rarely seen ziricote that I don't like.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Every time I see burl now I immediately associate it with cheap wannabe burl tops, like those Eart guitars or GOC or something. My eyes have been poisoned.


----------



## Stiman

What scares me, is that I'll build the perfect guitar (for me) with the online builder tool, and then 6 months later when I try and build what I think is perfect, it's a totally different guitar. When do you pull the trigger? Will you be happy in 6 months (by delivery date lol)?


----------



## spudmunkey

Lord Voldemort said:


> Every time I see burl now I immediately associate it with cheap wannabe burl tops, like those Eart guitars or GOC or something. My eyes have been poisoned.



A helpful thing with a design like this, is that the edge of the top is visible, and you can see that the wood is the full thickness of the top, and not just a paper-thin veneer on, say, a plain maple top, and then with the edge being hidden by paint or binding.


----------



## bigcupholder

Stiman said:


> What scares me, is that I'll build the perfect guitar (for me) with the online builder tool, and then 6 months later when I try and build what I think is perfect, it's a totally different guitar. When do you pull the trigger? Will you be happy in 6 months (by delivery date lol)?


Just keep ordering guitars until you exhaust all your options. Eventually you'll be happy


----------



## spudmunkey

And if not, try having a baby with it. A sure-fire way to improve the bond between you and your instrument, and is sure to save the relationship.


----------



## Themistocles

Alberto7 said:


> Oh boy, I'm not usually a fan of whatever weird and over the top concoctions Kiesel fans come up with, but those are HOT, and that first one is something else. That "f hole" really ties the whole design together.


well really most of these "concoctions" are things that guitarists think they want and will pay for... so Kiesel is kind of an enabler... if your taste sucks they will indulge them... if they are great, they will do that too (for the record Jeff thought my build was exceptionally nice so I think he has good taste too... sometimes).


----------



## Themistocles

Stiman said:


> What scares me, is that I'll build the perfect guitar (for me) with the online builder tool, and then 6 months later when I try and build what I think is perfect, it's a totally different guitar. When do you pull the trigger? Will you be happy in 6 months (by delivery date lol)?


as someone who has 2 (neither used the builder amd ordered 20+ years apart)... its best to use the builder and see how the ideas hold up. I like my Vader 7x so much Im having trouble considering another... but I know what I really like/want and how to separate the two.


----------



## Stiman

Themistocles said:


> but I know what I really like/want and how to separate the two.



I like to hear your thoughts on that, if you care to share


----------



## Themistocles

Stiman said:


> I like to hear your thoughts on that, if you care to share


Well Im a pro... so part of that gets to practicality as a tool. I dont really care about the fanciest top though my Vader 7x does have a very nice antiqued ash with some flame chatoyance in rawtone. I know Im visually most interested in fretborads. My taste in this is something Ive learned. Visually I find most fancy quilt tops to be super bourgeoisie and Im a strange person... I never want to be confused for some upper middle class dentist with 50 guitars with high grade tops that somehow look more like fancy gemstones more than wood. Im a player not a collector.

So I get down to what I require...

1) I travel and need a super stable instrument that I can take to fly gigs. So, I thought it was time to try headless. Boy was I right. Ergonomically it wins, no contest. it also has to stay in tune... headless is better with that too. Not koa, too fancy for a gig and travel axe (but it looks great).

2)Stainless steel frets... Jumbo, because I like scalloped fretboards but they are a pain. Jumbo is a very similar. medium jumbo is fine too but Ill always go Jumbo and 20 inch radius after this vader 7. I like very flat radius guitars.

3)rawtone... just less finish and I like to feel the grain a tad yet still not have my sweat soak into the axe tung oil neck is fine... kiesel is super silky but my carvin dc747 is gloss

4)sick of maple necks, anything but, Took a chance on black limba... love it, gives a bit of haptic feedback because it is so resonant. Like that. Maple is fine but uninspiring... so no maple nexks on custom guitars.

5)25.5 scale. I adore it... even on 7's, actually especially on 7's... I prefer it for feel etc. too many 26.5 7 strings for me. I have a jackson but its just a beater guitar... I dont use it to record with ever. Never even considered it.


the want list... I wanted a zircote fretboard but I know I love ebony and a mastergrade ebony option was available... super distinctive... mine has some flame in it. It may be the nicest royal ebony fretboard Ive ever seen. Jeff picked it out... I gave them my trust and they hit it out of the park. I play it every day and record/write with it most every day too. So zircote was a want but the mastergrade royal ebon proved the better choice and something they dont always have (I care about the distinctive piece of wood not the species). Flock knew some very rad stuff had come in recently. Ithought I wanted chambering too but discussing it with flock we decided it was just more overtones and maybe not what I needed for minimal weight reduction, Guitar ended up being just over 7lbs... super light compared to my 9 lb Carvin dc747.

Overall I wanted a kind of dusky orange guittar that reminded me of embers after a huge forrest fire... which I had lived through. The air was Mordor-like. Jeff interpreted the smoke coming off the embers with the fretboard, which I requested orange color in. Aesthetically I wanted some restraint ember-like vibes... because visually nothing competes with my own physical appearance... Im just that memorable. I wanted a wingman for a tool... thats what this axe gave.


Oh yeah and 2 covered Holdsworth pickups are the chef's kiss. stunning... they can do anything and sound like nothing else. Love Holdsworth

what do I think I want next? maybe a Lightspeed or X but so far nothing design wise has become meaningful the way surviving a conflageration has. Wait till something grips hold of you... then you will get exactly what you want because you will be inspired... I was and am super happy. Recorded some solos today even.


----------



## Alberto7

Themistocles said:


> well really most of these "concoctions" are things that guitarists think they want and will pay for... so Kiesel is kind of an enabler... if your taste sucks they will indulge them... if they are great, they will do that too (for the record Jeff thought my build was exceptionally nice so I think he has good taste too... sometimes).


Totally. That's also evidenced by other brands that offer custom services, that tend to output a large amount of gaudy instruments. Skervesen, Mayones, Ormsby... and others whose names I can't quite get outta my head right now. If the owner is happy, then I'm happy. But I still hate those designs 

I do appreciate that the number of companies doing this is increasing. Even if I only end up liking 1 out of 10 guitars they pump out, that still means that I get to look at more eye candy.


----------



## Stiman

@Themistocles good stuff, I enjoyed reading that. Thank you.


----------



## Themistocles

Stiman said:


> @Themistocles good stuff, I enjoyed reading that. Thank you.


No problemmo... feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions... custom guitar means option paralysis and its best to look at it as a tool rather than a projection.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Themistocles said:


> Well Im a pro... so part of that gets to practicality as a tool. I dont really care about the fanciest top though my Vader 7x does have a very nice antiqued ash with some flame chatoyance in rawtone. I know Im visually most interested in fretborads. My taste in this is something Ive learned. Visually I find most fancy quilt tops to be super bourgeoisie and Im a strange person... I never want to be confused for some upper middle class dentist with 50 guitars with high grade tops that somehow look more like fancy gemstones more than wood. Im a player not a collector.
> 
> So I get down to what I require...
> 
> 1) I travel and need a super stable instrument that I can take to fly gigs. So, I thought it was time to try headless. Boy was I right. Ergonomically it wins, no contest. it also has to stay in tune... headless is better with that too. Not koa, too fancy for a gig and travel axe (but it looks great).
> 
> 2)Stainless steel frets... Jumbo, because I like scalloped fretboards but they are a pain. Jumbo is a very similar. medium jumbo is fine too but Ill always go Jumbo and 20 inch radius after this vader 7. I like very flat radius guitars.
> 
> 3)rawtone... just less finish and I like to feel the grain a tad yet still not have my sweat soak into the axe tung oil neck is fine... kiesel is super silky but my carvin dc747 is gloss
> 
> 4)sick of maple necks, anything but, Took a chance on black limba... love it, gives a bit of haptic feedback because it is so resonant. Like that. Maple is fine but uninspiring... so no maple nexks on custom guitars.
> 
> 5)25.5 scale. I adore it... even on 7's, actually especially on 7's... I prefer it for feel etc. too many 26.5 7 strings for me. I have a jackson but its just a beater guitar... I dont use it to record with ever. Never even considered it.
> 
> 
> the want list... I wanted a zircote fretboard but I know I love ebony and a mastergrade ebony option was available... super distinctive... mine has some flame in it. It may be the nicest royal ebony fretboard Ive ever seen. Jeff picked it out... I gave them my trust and they hit it out of the park. I play it every day and record/write with it most every day too. So zircote was a want but the mastergrade royal ebon proved the better choice and something they dont always have (I care about the distinctive piece of wood not the species). Flock knew some very rad stuff had come in recently. Ithought I wanted chambering too but discussing it with flock we decided it was just more overtones and maybe not what I needed for minimal weight reduction, Guitar ended up being just over 7lbs... super light compared to my 9 lb Carvin dc747.
> 
> Overall I wanted a kind of dusky orange guittar that reminded me of embers after a huge forrest fire... which I had lived through. The air was Mordor-like. Jeff interpreted the smoke coming off the embers with the fretboard, which I requested orange color in. Aesthetically I wanted some restraint ember-like vibes... because visually nothing competes with my own physical appearance... Im just that memorable. I wanted a wingman for a tool... thats what this axe gave.
> 
> 
> Oh yeah and 2 covered Holdsworth pickups are the chef's kiss. stunning... they can do anything and sound like nothing else. Love Holdsworth
> 
> what do I think I want next? maybe a Lightspeed or X but so far nothing design wise has become meaningful the way surviving a conflageration has. Wait till something grips hold of you... then you will get exactly what you want because you will be inspired... I was and am super happy. Recorded some solos today even.



I'll bet when this man's wife asks how he feels about her, he says 3-7 words at most.

Ask him to talk about his favorite guitar though? Can barely contain it to 6 paragraphs.


----------



## Themistocles

Lord Voldemort said:


> I'll bet when this man's wife asks how he feels about her, he says 3-7 words at most.
> 
> Ask him to talk about his favorite guitar though? Can barely contain it to 6 paragraphs.


Im a writer as well... I can make words on practicaly anything. I think people might get worried if I was at a loss for words. Writing lyrics can be a lot easier than singing them though. I just edit edit edit (not so when I comment online, I just write sloppy feely stuff like above). Good thing is when working with other musicians I can communicate things they might be a loss for words about.


----------



## Benzene

Jeff and Kiesel have been doing great work lately. I enjoy going to their website and seeing the new guitars and pic.'s of the day. The D7 I ordered from them was the finest example of fretwork I've ever had. I'd never buy a guitar over 2K from anyone else and I haven't since; but I'd buy a good Squire if one came across my path. Overall, it's been good to see less Jeff bashing and more positive talk about the company this year.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Benzene said:


> Jeff and Kiesel have been doing great work lately. I enjoy going to their website and seeing the new guitars and pic.'s of the day. The D7 I ordered from them was the finest example of fretwork I've ever had. I'd never buy a guitar over 2K from anyone else and I haven't since; but I'd buy a good Squire if one came across my path. Overall, it's been good to see less Jeff bashing and more positive talk about the company this year.



I have to agree. I don't connect to brands generally speaking, but I've always had some sort of connection to Carvin/Kiesel. When I was in my first band about 10 years back, my other guitarist got a super nice, Claro Walnut Carvin and at the time, it was the nicest/most expensive guitar I'd ever seen. I'd only had guitar center guitars at the time, and cheap ones at that, so it just seemed like a whole new world of craftsmanship; it was only like $1200 as well I believe, which was nuts. From that point the whole band was head over heels for Carvin; all of use now own Kiesels. We don't play anymore though and all have jobs now, funny how that works. 

It's been hard seeing Kiesel get all this hate the last couple of years, and I've definitely not been one to hate the brand even with the roasted maple debacle, which was so cringe. Everyone is entitled to a bad day, and everyone at some point says something incredibly stupid and has egg on their face. Doesn't matter if you're a CEO or a homeless man, it's a universal truth. The apology and correction of the behavior was good enough for me, call me a softy. I'll concede that the option 50s are a little excessive though, ha. 

Having now owned EBMM, Caparison, Parker, Fender/Gibson USA, Strandberg, ESP and a few other very, very nice guitars (nothing above the 3k range mind you) the only guitars that blow me away every single time have been Kiesel. They're just ridiculously well made, and they're reasonably priced for what they are in my opinion. Every one that I play is at least very solid, and at best drop dead incredible. 

I do miss that Parker though, goddamn was that a nice guitar.


----------



## Themistocles

Lord Voldemort said:


> I have to agree. I don't connect to brands generally speaking, but I've always had some sort of connection to Carvin/Kiesel. When I was in my first band about 10 years back, my other guitarist got a super nice, Claro Walnut Carvin and at the time, it was the nicest/most expensive guitar I'd ever seen. I'd only had guitar center guitars at the time, and cheap ones at that, so it just seemed like a whole new world of craftsmanship; it was only like $1200 as well I believe, which was nuts. From that point the whole band was head over heels for Carvin; all of use now own Kiesels. We don't play anymore though and all have jobs now, funny how that works.
> 
> It's been hard seeing Kiesel get all this hate the last couple of years, and I've definitely not been one to hate the brand even with the roasted maple debacle, which was so cringe. Everyone is entitled to a bad day, and everyone at some point says something incredibly stupid and has egg on their face. Doesn't matter if you're a CEO or a homeless man, it's a universal truth. The apology and correction of the behavior was good enough for me, call me a softy. I'll concede that the option 50s are a little excessive though, ha.
> 
> Having now owned EBMM, Caparison, Parker, Fender/Gibson USA, Strandberg, ESP and a few other very, very nice guitars (nothing above the 3k range mind you) the only guitars that blow me away every single time have been Kiesel. They're just ridiculously well made, and they're reasonably priced for what they are in my opinion. Every one that I play is at least very solid, and at best drop dead incredible.
> 
> I do miss that Parker though, goddamn was that a nice guitar.


I think the fact that they pioneered a different way, taking the best from modern construction as well as good old wood centric eye candy has made them a target. It means they have done something right. It gives me something to be proud of in this country... another way. Love my kiesel.. def better than my very solid and interesting Carvin DC 747 but the Kiesel gets the nod when tracking this new album over and over again. Ive owned many brands including MIA EBMM but its the Kiesel Vader 7x with Holdsworth pickups that excites me to pick up and write/record stuff. If only singing and recording my onw drum tracks was as easy because inspired stuff just flows when I grab the vader!


----------



## spudmunkey

Sounds like a new Greg Howe model coming tomorrow, the Lyra. IMO, the top suspects are:
- Something like maybe a Theos with a pickguard (sort of a combination of his previous and current sigs, or I suppose you could say a Delos with squared-off edghes)
- Something like their old Bolt plus, which would be a rear-routed, pickguardless Delos. Someone suggested a rounded Aries, which would carry through the constellation name theme...
- Possibly a beveled Delos, but that seems less likely


edit: OK, so maybe that last one is now the "most likely". Just boosted the image brightness in photoshop. I can't tell if there's a crisp break-over edge for the bevel, or if it's a smooth slope like any carved-top shape.


----------



## mikernaut

I think it may be a 7 string Howe. These people where just there  and hinted at it.


----------



## spudmunkey

mikernaut said:


> I think it may be a 7 string Howe. These people where just there  and hinted at it.


Interesting. I wonder if it's just a "package" for the Aries, and/or if there'd be a 6-string version, too.


----------



## Hollowway

A 7 string Howe would be cool! I’m interested to see what they’ve come up with.


----------



## wannabguitarist

mikernaut said:


> I think it may be a 7 string Howe. These people where just there  and hinted at it.


Did they do a clinic or was this just a social media post? Hoping it's the latter because I'll be really upset if I missed some of my favorite guitarists putting on a show just 30min away


----------



## CanserDYI

Can they please just make a new sig that's not just cutting the head off an existing model or just a skin pack for an existing model?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

CanserDYI said:


> Can they please just make a new sig that's not just cutting the head off an existing model or just a skin pack for an existing model?



It's kinda neat when you think of them as an options package for existing models, but they just don't seem to really offer anything I'd go out of my way for. 

What would be really cool is if you could mix and match artist signature packages with different base models. Which I mainly want because I need a 7-string JB Numbers. 

When you think about it, most signature models from most companies are "skin packs" for existing stuff. How many signature ESP M-II or Horizons are the same guitar with a different finish?


----------



## xzacx

MaxOfMetal said:


> What would be really cool is if you could mix and match artist signature packages with different base models. Which I mainly want because I need a 7-string JB Numbers.
> 
> When you think about it, most signature models from most companies are "skin packs" for existing stuff. How many signature ESP M-II or Horizons are the same guitar with a different finish?



A 7 string JB Numbers seems like a great idea and the thing that could get me to buy a Kiesel, but then I remember that it probably wouldn’t have a Floyd—and there goes my interest in that.


----------



## CanserDYI

I could have sworn I saw a 7 string JB am I crazy?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

CanserDYI said:


> I could have sworn I saw a 7 string JB am I crazy?



A Numbers? They make a Becker 7 but it's boring as fuck.


----------



## BigViolin

I just wanna hear GH get weird on a 7.


----------



## mikernaut

wannabguitarist said:


> Did they do a clinic or was this just a social media post? Hoping it's the latter because I'll be really upset if I missed some of my favorite guitarists putting on a show just 30min away







Claire and Dean were in the area , so They met up with Scott and Justin and they all visited the shop. Scott picked up a guitar for himself, which knowing he's a huge Howe fan makes sense. Hopefully he can show it off in the next day or 2 on his Twitch stream (These pics are from his Discord server)


----------



## Tree

mikernaut said:


> View attachment 113071
> View attachment 113072
> View attachment 113073
> 
> Claire and Dean were in the area , so They met up with Scott and Justin and they all visited the shop. Scott picked up a guitar for himself, which knowing he's a huge Howe fan makes sense. Hopefully he can show it off in the next day or 2 on his Twitch stream (These pics are from his Discord server)


Man, Scott’s sigs are just glorified DCs, but that blue one is calling my name!


----------



## spudmunkey

Tree said:


> Man, Scott’s sigs are just glorified DCs, but that blue one is calling my name!



Technically it's a bevel-delete Aries Neck-through. 

In regards to the Jason Becker 7, for one or two years they offered the "Bluey" inspired JB207C, but they discontinued that around they same time they stopped using 7-string floyds.


----------



## gunshow86de

Well, it looks like a Kiesel.


----------



## CanserDYI

Ok I like it.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

How cool would it be of Kiesel to offer the Jason Becker Numbers setup on other models and then donate a portion of the proceeds to Jason? Make it a $500 dollar option and give like 10% or 15% back. 

It's not like it's an extravagant suite of options, the most "difficult" part is the inlay, but they've moved it to another model before, specifically that JB Vader run.

Even if it cost something absurd, like $10k to program and stock the colorful appointments, they'd only need to sell a couple dozen in a single year to break even at $500 a pop. 

The JB Numbers stuff is the straight up coolest thing they do, it would be awesome to see it across the lineup.


----------



## gunch

gunshow86de said:


> Well, it looks like a Kiesel.


evh/wolfgang, delos and aries put in a blender. Reminds me of a EBMM cutlass/Jason Richards too


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> How cool would it be of Kiesel to offer the Jason Becker Numbers setup on other models and then donate a portion of the proceeds to Jason? Make it a $500 dollar option and give like 10% or 15% back.
> 
> It's not like it's an extravagant suite of options, the most "difficult" part is the inlay, but they've moved it to another model before, specifically that JB Vader run.
> 
> Even if it cost something absurd, like $10k to program and stock the colorful appointments, they'd only need to sell a couple dozen in a single year to break even at $500 a pop.
> 
> The JB Numbers stuff is the straight up coolest thing they do, it would be awesome to see it across the lineup.



I don't disagree. Hell, I couldn't even blame them if they did it as a Kickstarter (which major companies have used for years to launch new products), where it wouldn't proceed/get funded unless they hit a certain goal/minimum quantity.


----------



## spudmunkey

A couple of unique aspects:

The Lyra is just a standard model, but there's a toggle switch on the product's page to select the "Greg Howe Specs". It was a design collaboration between Jeff and Greg. At one point it was a rounded edge body without a bevel, then it had the square edges but no bevel, then he tried an Aries for the first time, and really wanted the bevel on his still-being-finalized-at-that-time model.

The Greg How spec comes with the Vega trem, Seymour Duncan Whole Lotta Humbucker bridge pickup, and I *thought* Greg mentioned something about the controls being different, but I didn't catch the details on the video and there's no mention of it on the website.

Design-wise, it reminds me of if their Delos mated with the Al Joseph Artist Edition model, with it's bevel, squared-off edges and shorter lower horn.


----------



## Hollowway

xzacx said:


> A 7 string JB Numbers seems like a great idea and the thing that could get me to buy a Kiesel, but then I remember that it probably wouldn’t have a Floyd—and there goes my interest in that.


Somebody make Max president! That would be an insta-buy for me. I’ve asked about it in the past, and people say it’s not possible because Jason didn’t play 7 string numbers, and it’s his sig. But, I’ve seen them stretch that concept for various other things, so I’d be all over it. They can even keep the 6 string sized numbers, for all I care.


----------



## bigcupholder

Why can't Kiesel figure out how to make the bevel flow into the body outline? 

It'd be so easy to have it smoothly transition into the waist of the guitar but instead it cuts in at a weird angle half an inch below. It's so close and yet so wrong.


----------



## spudmunkey

I still want a black-and-white themed Numbers guitar. Maple board, black inlays, or ebony board and white inlays, and then maybe options for either white or black (or antique ash and black-out ash) bodies.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

There are only a few Kiesel designs I like well enough to own one, but so many just have that close but try again when you’re sober look to them. It’s frustrating because I like the specs and price point. DC series, Vader, and the Leia I think are okay looking enough, but so many others are just yuck.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

It's interesting that so many people can have such similar taste in certain things can have have such different taste in others. I love Jason Becker but I feel like his guitar is the ugliest thing Kiesel does! I wonder how they sell. 

The Lyra is pretty cool though! I like seeing a different body design. I've never been a big pickguard guy myself but it suits Howe.


----------



## spudmunkey

I think this is my favorite-looking photo so far:





Delos vs Lyra:


----------



## Hollowway

bigcupholder said:


> Why can't Kiesel figure out how to make the bevel flow into the body outline?
> 
> It'd be so easy to have it smoothly transition into the waist of the guitar but instead it cuts in at a weird angle half an inch below. It's so close and yet so wrong.


100%. It’s been my main complaint since the debut of the bevel. I don’t see how anyone can look at it and not think, “why doesn’t that end at the strap button?”


----------



## jco5055

spudmunkey said:


> A couple of unique aspects:
> 
> The Lyra is just a standard model, but there's a toggle switch on the product's page to select the "Greg Howe Specs". It was a design collaboration between Jeff and Greg. At one point it was a rounded edge body without a bevel, then it had the square edges but no bevel, then he tried an Aries for the first time, and really wanted the bevel on his still-being-finalized-at-that-time model.
> 
> The Greg How spec comes with the Vega trem, Seymour Duncan Whole Lotta Humbucker bridge pickup, and I *thought* Greg mentioned something about the controls being different, but I didn't catch the details on the video and there's no mention of it on the website.
> 
> Design-wise, it reminds me of if their Delos mated with the Al Joseph Artist Edition model, with it's bevel, squared-off edges and shorter lower horn.
> 
> View attachment 113135


That’s pretty cool they are doing the Vega trem though! Makes me wish they’d do some other more unique bridges as options for their guitars, or at least have 7 string Floyd’s haha


----------



## gunch

Ok now that's cool 

I want one with a holdsworth headstock


----------



## mikernaut

Jesse Michel's personal Lyra


----------



## Masoo2

gunch said:


> Ok now that's cool
> 
> I want one with a holdsworth headstock


you got the right idea

kinda barely waghornish


----------



## mbardu

I was going to say it's the _least _terrible when it comes to having the bevel eat into a figured top...but then sadly you still have a large pickguard to do _just _that...


----------



## Albake21

That white Lyra actually looks good, even with the bevel. The other difference I love over the Delos is the side mounted jack plate. Absolutely can't stand top mounted jacks.

But that bevel with a figured top, much like the Aries, just looks so wrong to me. Always has, always will.


----------



## ArtDecade

I love Greg Howe and his music so much. But, man, I just can't get into these Kiesel guitars no matter how much I want to wear the merit badge. These guitars seem like they were designed by grade schoolers on a sugar high - more bevels, add burl - but not there, add a pickguard and make it busy, figure the board too, oh - and gold hardware, and more bevels. There are just so many things clashing... and this is coming from someone that likes 80s guitars. I am not really known for my taste and this Greg Howe model is too much for me.


----------



## RadoncROCKs

This is a pretty cool model but like any Kiesel can be easily overdone. The Howe spec is blergh no offense

I love the bevel on my Aries but hate any Kiesel with figured top/bevel/pickguard combo - too busy/choppy and takes away from what should be the focal part of the guitar

I would love a basic build Lyra with solid or metallic color - kind of a Aries/Delos hybrid


----------



## CanserDYI

God the Al Joseph one was pretty cool.


----------



## CanserDYI

That shape is cool even without a top.


----------



## spudmunkey

While I think this is the case for a lot of guitars, something Jeff mentioned in today's walk through I think is especially true for this model: that the sort of swept-forward offset-ness is much more apparent when it's held in a playing position, rather than standing straight up in a stand.


----------



## cardinal

Body looks like it was proportioned for 8 strings? I want to like it.


----------



## Hollowway

cardinal said:


> Body looks like it was proportioned for 8 strings? I want to like it.


Yeah, it does look a little large. Kind of like how the Larada looks good as an 8, but like an olive on a toothpick as a sixxer.


----------



## spudmunkey

Scott Carstairs's:


----------



## gunch

[Smoker cough] Oh yeah baby that's rockin


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Total "gumby" guitar shape. Like they just took a Strat and rounded it up here and there. Overall inoffensive, but immediately forgettable too. 

It's sort of funny the one shape they can't seem to get juuuuuust right is bland modern Strat. 

More designs like the Vanquish or even the pointy stuff would be cool.


----------



## Hollowway

Yeah, I know I’ve said this before, but I think it would be super beneficial if they hired someone to design guitars. I’m just imagining something like a padalka, Stradi, Skervesen, or something like that, but with the speed and low cost that Kiesel can deliver.


----------



## cardinal

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, I know I’ve said this before, but I think it would be super beneficial if they hired someone to design guitars. I’m just imagining something like a padalka, Stradi, Skervesen, or something like that, but with the speed and low cost that Kiesel can deliver.


Yes. 

I get that time is money, so it wouldn't be reasonable at this price point to have Kiesel try to CNC complex carved top shapes or whatever. But pretty much every shape they have could use some relatively minor adjustments to look better.


----------



## ShredmasterD

Vader I ordered in 2016 or 17


----------



## Empryrean

they've done it again.


----------



## ShredmasterD

Empryrean said:


> they've done it again.


i remember those peavey 7 strings


----------



## CanserDYI

I can never unsee the nipples on vader titties.


----------



## dspellman

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, I know I’ve said this before, but I think it would be super beneficial if they hired someone to design guitars. I’m just imagining something like a padalka, Stradi, Skervesen, or something like that, but with the speed and low cost that Kiesel can deliver.


Much as I love my Carvins (mine range from the mid-late '80's to about 2006), I have to agree that a good designer might be in their best interests. It's always been a family company, though, and family members have been pressed into service for most critical jobs, even if they really weren't particularly qualified.


----------



## dspellman

CanserDYI said:


> I can never unsee the nipples on vader titties.


On the other hand, they make a great guitar stand (leaning against the amp).


----------



## ShredmasterD

CanserDYI said:


> I can never unsee the nipples on vader titties.


The status bass and other headless use same config. its functional as a kickstand, but it can look odd


----------



## spudmunkey

CanserDYI said:


> I can never unsee the nipples on vader titties.


How about if you just picture it as a scrotum instead? Does that help?


----------



## ShredmasterD

ShredmasterD said:


> i remember those peavey 7 strings. its close


----------



## bigcupholder

ShredmasterD said:


> View attachment 113311


The Peavey looks better IMO. The offset waist gives the shape a better sense of visual flow. The Peavey top horn looks too skinny relative to the butt of the guitar, but the Kiesel top horn looks obese and unbalanced. Probably something in between would look better.


----------



## Empryrean

im going all in as soon as they make a Kiesel Turbulence 





idk what it is about the shape but I really like it


----------



## CanserDYI

Empryrean said:


> im going all in as soon as they make a Kiesel Turbulence
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idk what it is about the shape but I really like it


It's like the dick tip of a banana.


----------



## Alberto7

bigcupholder said:


> The Peavey looks better IMO. The offset waist gives the shape a better sense of visual flow. The Peavey top horn looks too skinny relative to the butt of the guitar, but the Kiesel top horn looks obese and unbalanced. Probably something in between would look better.


These are my exact thoughts, word for word.


----------



## spudmunkey

ShredmasterD said:


> View attachment 113311


The PRS Vela falls in between the two, too.


----------



## ShredmasterD

bigcupholder said:


> The Peavey looks better IMO. The offset waist gives the shape a better sense of visual flow. The Peavey top horn looks too skinny relative to the butt of the guitar, but the Kiesel top horn looks obese and unbalanced. Probably something in between would look better.


i like them both. i'd take one.


----------



## Themistocles

spudmunkey said:


> While I think this is the case for a lot of guitars, something Jeff mentioned in today's walk through I think is especially true for this model: that the sort of swept-forward offset-ness is much more apparent when it's held in a playing position, rather than standing straight up in a stand.
> 
> View attachment 113241
> 
> View attachment 113242


this is true... question is, do people play the guitars or just look at em? I prefer to play them and its why Ive had a tough time even coming up with another build. They really nailed my Vader 7x and the vader is still my favorite model. Maybe a lightspeed 7 or X7 someday once I get insprired again... but right now all I want to do is play this Vader 7x. Time to jump off this and record some rhythm and lead parts. Ill be posting my full and exhaustive review of the vader in september (wanted to use it on the new album but wanted to get basic rough mixes all down... you know, playing not just showing off a cool looking guitar).


----------



## spudmunkey

Themistocles said:


> this is true... question is, do people play the guitars or just look at em?


A third "or" is people wanting to look cool while playing them. But no matter what, a guitar I like the look of is going to inspire me to pick it up more.


----------



## Themistocles

spudmunkey said:


> A third "or" is people wanting to look cool while playing them. But no matter what, a guitar I like the look of is going to inspire me to pick it up more.


absolutely agree... inspiration is a complicated thing, An awesome guitar brings the awe...


----------



## NoodleFace

Lord Voldemort said:


> I have to agree. I don't connect to brands generally speaking, but I've always had some sort of connection to Carvin/Kiesel. When I was in my first band about 10 years back, my other guitarist got a super nice, Claro Walnut Carvin and at the time, it was the nicest/most expensive guitar I'd ever seen. I'd only had guitar center guitars at the time, and cheap ones at that, so it just seemed like a whole new world of craftsmanship; it was only like $1200 as well I believe, which was nuts. From that point the whole band was head over heels for Carvin; all of use now own Kiesels. We don't play anymore though and all have jobs now, funny how that works.
> 
> It's been hard seeing Kiesel get all this hate the last couple of years, and I've definitely not been one to hate the brand even with the roasted maple debacle, which was so cringe. Everyone is entitled to a bad day, and everyone at some point says something incredibly stupid and has egg on their face. Doesn't matter if you're a CEO or a homeless man, it's a universal truth. The apology and correction of the behavior was good enough for me, call me a softy. I'll concede that the option 50s are a little excessive though, ha.
> 
> Having now owned EBMM, Caparison, Parker, Fender/Gibson USA, Strandberg, ESP and a few other very, very nice guitars (nothing above the 3k range mind you) the only guitars that blow me away every single time have been Kiesel. They're just ridiculously well made, and they're reasonably priced for what they are in my opinion. Every one that I play is at least very solid, and at best drop dead incredible.
> 
> I do miss that Parker though, goddamn was that a nice guitar.


I own both a Carvin dc727 and a kiesel Aries 7 and both are the best guitars Ive ever played. Close 3rd is a Caparison Dellinger, but it did not feel the same at all. I only like my kiesel more just to play because it has the thinner neck option. The carvin sounds better in every way imaginable. I actually think my next guitar will be a custom order kiesel. 

I hate being a brand fanboy but they're such amazing instruments. 

All that said, I think Jeff and co got appropriate hate when they made shitty moves and were terrible to customers. Good to see the image has turned around a bit.


----------



## ShredmasterD

gunch said:


> View attachment 113248
> 
> [Smoker cough] Oh yeah baby that's rockin


dont care much for the headstock design. looks 'off' to me. kinda like a chick with a small head.


----------



## Hollowway

ShredmasterD said:


> dont care much for the headstock design. looks 'off' to me. kinda like a chick with a small head.


You've got a new fan:


----------



## ShredmasterD

i cant delete error posts...must learn how


----------



## ShredmasterD

HAHAHAHAHA !!!!!!!!!! win!


----------



## tedmich

mikernaut said:


> Jesse Michel's personal Lyra
> 
> View attachment 113147
> View attachment 113148


wow thats...busy. Was the Zebra wood fretboard unavailable?


----------



## gunch

spudmunkey said:


> The PRS Vela falls in between the two, too.


I’d wish they’d make a vela with normal ass prs specs


----------



## CanserDYI

I can't go a month without posting this.

Looked really nice today in the sunlight.


----------



## Alberto7

CanserDYI said:


> I can't go a month without posting this.
> 
> Looked really nice today in the sunlight.
> 
> View attachment 113372


That's a pretty blue, and it works really well with the Vanquish shape and with the mahogany body. Complimentary colors and whatnot.

... but why are you choking it like a chicken?


----------



## spudmunkey

Labor day sale:
Free ash body wood when paired with Raw Tone Satin
Free antique ash
Free thin neck profile
free chambered body
free Thorium, Illusionist and Empyrean pickup upgrades
$50 off 3 and 5-piece necks
California burst with some tops
free KTB on K series
free Candy with 7A (aka "Master Grade") top.


----------



## Alberto7

Anyone have a blurb with a quick description of each pickup? I couldn't find anything on their website, surprisingly enough. Am I just not looking correctly? I genuinely have no idea what the differences are between their pickups or even what models they offer.


----------



## ShredmasterD

Alberto7 said:


> Anyone have a blurb with a quick description of each pickup? I couldn't find anything on their website, surprisingly enough. Am I just not looking correctly? I genuinely have no idea what the differences are between their pickups or even what models they offer.


they have a bbs. did a quick search and it popped up a couple times. looks active with recent conversations about their PUs


----------



## spudmunkey

Alberto7 said:


> Anyone have a blurb with a quick description of each pickup? I couldn't find anything on their website, surprisingly enough. Am I just not looking correctly? I genuinely have no idea what the differences are between their pickups or even what models they offer.



The Thorium is their highest-output pickup, bridge only. The Empyrean is meant to be the best neck pickup to pair with it, and is Scott Carstairs pairing of choice.

The Illusionist is the Lee McKinney Bridge pickup model. Output is between the Lithium and Thorium. Some folks like to pair the Illusionist with the Holdsworth neck.

Lithium is their standard. Bright and articulate (some might say to a fault). Can get great tones, but will usually need different settings than many other pickups.

Beryllium is their slightly more vintage sounding standard pickup on models like their Les Paul-alike and PRS-esque models. Still very "modern, though, IMO, but is my favorite between the Lithium and Beryllium. It's also the standard pickup on the Chris Letchford model, so I think it's pretty flexible.

The Holdsworths, Frank Gamble and Greg Howe Parallax, I haven't thr vocabulary or experience with them to be of help. The Holdsworths are petty well-liked, though un-potted.


----------



## Alberto7

ShredmasterD said:


> they have a bbs. did a quick search and it popped up a couple times. looks active with recent conversations about their PUs





spudmunkey said:


> The Thorium is their highest-output pickup, bridge only. The Empyrean is meant to be the best neck pickup to pair with it, and is Scott Carstairs pairing of choice.
> 
> The Illusionist is the Lee McKinney Bridge pickup model. Output is between the Lithium and Thorium. Some folks like to pair the Illusionist with the Holdsworth neck.
> 
> Lithium is their standard. Bright and articulate (some might say to a fault). Can get great tones, but will usually need different settings than many other pickups.
> 
> Beryllium is their slightly more vintage sounding standard pickup on models like their Les Paul-alike and PRS-esque models. Still very "modern, though, IMO, but is my favorite between the Lithium and Beryllium. It's also the standard pickup on the Chris Letchford model, so I think it's pretty flexible.
> 
> The Holdsworths, Frank Gamble and Greg Howe Parallax, I haven't thr vocabulary or experience with them to be of help. The Holdsworths are petty well-liked, though un-potted.


Thanks guys, that's pretty much what I was looking for. Much appreciated.

Even back in the Carvin days their pickups were a bit of a mystery to me. I just own a DC727 with C26 humbuckers, and that's all I know. Never even met anyone else who owns a Carvin/Kiesel. (I also haven't had any guitarist friends in a looooong time, so it figures I haven't met anyone with a Kiesel. ) The C26s are what I picture to be the Kiesel equivalent of the Lithiums, from the way you describe them. The Holdsworths I do know have a good reputation, but I never looked into them much.

Thanks again.


----------



## Agalloch

Alberto7 said:


> Anyone have a blurb with a quick description of each pickup? I couldn't find anything on their website, surprisingly enough. Am I just not looking correctly? I genuinely have no idea what the differences are between their pickups or even what models they offer.



It's not just you. They used to have a page about their pickups on the old website. It's bewildering to me that they don't have a simple description of each model on the new site. You shouldn't have to go digging through forums to figure out how they're supposed to differ...


----------



## spudmunkey

Agalloch said:


> It's not just you. They used to have a page about their pickups on the old website. It's bewildering to me that they don't have a simple description of each model on the new site. You shouldn't have to go digging through forums to figure out how they're supposed to differ...


There is a "builder" coming for the pickups, hopefully within the next month, and I'm hoping some sort of specs or at least descriptions come with it.

They put out a humbucker comparison and single coil comparison video on YouTube within the last year that does a pretty good job, but I think it's missing the Empyrean.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

The illusionist humbucker is great, I will say. It's been my favorite Kiesel pup to date.


----------



## bigcupholder

Lithiums are painfully thin and bright. The upper treble/presence extends way past what a normal humbucker captures. The bass is cut way back, low mids are scooped. The most appealing description I could come up with is this: a modern-voiced single coil in a humbucker package. I swapped them out after a few weeks and never regretted it.

Holdsworths are very normal by comparison. Low to medium output with a broad mid hump (middle mids, not nasally upper mids) and an almost flute-like voice. They're versatile pickups that can do anything from jazz to metal. I haven't tested them at high volume so I can't say if feedback is an issue or not with them unpotted. I've had them for over a year and half and haven't swapped them out despite having replacements ready from when I first ordered the guitar. They're not my favorite pickups for anything but they work for everything.


----------



## Benzene

...


----------



## Benzene

bigcupholder said:


> ithiums are painfully thin and bright. The upper treble/presence extends way past what a normal humbucker captures. The bass is cut way back, low mids are scooped. The most appealing description I could come up with is this: a modern-voiced single coil in a humbucker package. I swapped them out after a few weeks and never regretted it.


I'll say that this is true on the 7 string set I got form them in my HSH Delos. I did swap them out for the Berylliums; although I did appreciate the overall lower seventh string volume of these pickups. I wish other manufacturers did this as most of the seven string pickups that I have tried have had too much bass in the seventh string that dominates chords that I like using all seven strings, or ones that use the seventh string instead of the sixth. I should add that I like to tune the seventh string to A.


----------



## CanserDYI

I really enjoy the lithium in mine.


----------



## ShredmasterD

miss the days when carvin sold parts like pickups. at one point early on, i think kiesel was as well.


----------



## CanserDYI

ShredmasterD said:


> miss the days when carvin sold parts like pickups. at one point early on, i think kiesel was as well.


Still do, they're working on a pickup builder right now.


----------



## ShredmasterD

where are you seeing them sold seprately on the site? what does working on a builder mean? they need a 3rd party to make them? thought they made them in house


----------



## SymmetricScars

Received this on Saturday and holy shit is it amazing. I was barely able to put it down to go to work this morning. I went with the Thorium bridge and Empyrean neck pickup and they both sound great. I've managed to get good tones out of the Lithiums in my VM7 but I like these better already, unfortunately the Empyrean wasn't out yet when I ordered the VM7 so it wasn't an option. It's my first time really using a trem but I'm getting the hang of it pretty quickly, the Hipshot feels nice to use. Other options include a 14" radius (no idea why I chose that since I really like the 20" on my VM7, but it feels great on this 6 string), roasted birdseye maple fretboard, and EVO gold frets (mainly to match the gold pole pieces). Sometimes I just stare at the top for a while...


----------



## spudmunkey

ShredmasterD said:


> where are you seeing them sold seprately on the site?


They aren't on the site (yet), but they will sell them if you call.


ShredmasterD said:


> what does working on a builder mean? they need a 3rd party to make them? thought they made them in house


They are going to be adding a "virtual builder" on the website, so you can configure the model, bobbin color, pole piece color, and I assume direct-mount or bezel-mount for the 6-string examples, and you'll be able to order the pickups from that page of their website, just like with the guitar builder. Probably also multiscale or not (and then right or left-handed...although maybe not on the online builder...they might make those call-in only).

All of their guitar pickups are made in-house, aside from the TBH60 (twin-blade single-coil-sized humbucker. I believe those are Artec.). I believe all of the bass pickups are made in-house, too, but I can't say for sure. The Polarity active pickup PCBs, I believe, are manufactured by a California company close to them that makes medical and testing equipment, according to Kiesel.

They re-designed their website when they launched the guitar virtual builder, and the "parts" section wasn't added. They just decided to get mostly out of the parts business, but after they released the guitar "builder", then they released the bass "builder", and since then they've been working on the pickup "builder" which a little birdie told me is just waiting on a couple of last pieces of info, and then about 1-2 weeks of testing after that. So I'd say anywhere from the next week to a month or two from now. So we're in a weird in-between where they will sell them if you call, but they might try and talk you into waiting until you can just configure and buy them online.


----------



## ShredmasterD

spudmunkey said:


> They aren't on the site (yet), but they will sell them if you call.
> 
> They are going to be adding a "virtual builder" on the website, so you can configure the model, bobbin color, pole piece color, and I assume direct-mount of bezel-mount for the 6-string examples, and you'll be able to order the pickups from that page of their website, just like with the guitar builder. All of their pickups are made in-house, aside from the TBH60 (twin-blade single-coil-sized humbucker).


awesome. thanks for the info


----------



## Hollowway

Man, it sounds like everyone loves the Holdsworths. What non-Kiesel pup would it be most like? JB?


----------



## bigcupholder

Hollowway said:


> Man, it sounds like everyone loves the Holdsworths. What non-Kiesel pup would it be most like? JB?


It's really not like a JB at all. The JB is significantly higher output and has a characteristic upper mid spike. The Holdsworth is closer to a PAF with more mids, but it's a broad mid bump. There's nothing spiky about it. If the JB mids are focused around 2KHz, the Holdsworth mids are more in that 700-1400Hz range. It's not dark though. The clarity is better than the JB but it doesn't cut through a mix as well.


----------



## Hollowway

bigcupholder said:


> It's really not like a JB at all. The JB is significantly higher output and has a characteristic upper mid spike. The Holdsworth is closer to a PAF with more mids, but it's a broad mid bump. There's nothing spiky about it. If the JB mids are focused around 2KHz, the Holdsworth mids are more in that 700-1400Hz range. It's not dark though. The clarity is better than the JB but it doesn't cut through a mix as well.


Awesome! I appreciate the detailed feedback - esp the mids info!


----------



## Hollowway

Hey guys (@spudmunkey @mbardu ) what is the actual difference between a 4a, 5a, and 7a top? I know supposedly the higher grade ones are “better,” but what makes them considered better? I used to think that the depth of the quilt appearance and consistency of quilt throughout the top (as opposed to blank spots) were the factors, but on a recent FB post where people were displaying their different grade tops, I could not do well the difference between any of them. That’s good for Kiesel, because the standard 4a tops look great. But am I missing something? I have yet to see a 4a top that would make me want to pay for a higher grade top.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> Hey guys (@spudmunkey @mbardu ) what is the actual difference between a 4a, 5a, and 7a top? I know supposedly the higher grade ones are “better,” but what makes them considered better? I used to think that the depth of the quilt appearance and consistency of quilt throughout the top (as opposed to blank spots) were the factors, but on a recent FB post where people were displaying their different grade tops, I could not do well the difference between any of them. That’s good for Kiesel, because the standard 4a tops look great. But am I missing something? I have yet to see a 4a top that would make me want to pay for a higher grade top.



Generally, yes: the higher the grade, the more consistent and the more defined the figuring will be.

There are a lot of challenges to get defined differences between the grades, though.

1) Their standard 4A encompasses everything from just barely better than 3A to a top could start out looking just as good as a 5A, but has maybe one flatter area, or one knot that holds it back from being rated 5A...but then that spot might end up under a bridge or pickup, or be cut off in a cutaway. Or once the top is carved and sanded, the figuring could come out a little more. Or maybe their last batch had a ton of 5A, and their shelves happen to be full of 5A, so they are letting more 5A slide as 4A just for the sake of efficiency. I have no proof of that, but it's a hunch based on what I've seen from many of their live shop walks and how Jeff talks about the selection process, and also how they mill all of their bodies and tops in-house.
2) Some woods don't have a whole lot of difference between the grades, like flamed maple. Burled poplar is a bit easier, because you go from small patches of burls (4A) to about half the top covered in burls (5a) to most of the top being burled (7A, aka Master Grade).
3) If you get a "Jeff" finish, since he picks all of the upgraded tops, he's likely going to pick one that'll more likely show off his finish even better.
4) When I ordered my SH6, I was getting a "Jeff" finish, and I gave him a budget and some leeway (within parameters). One of them was "min 5A top". Now, when mine was built, they made a mistake and built it with the standard mahogany body wood instead of the ash I asked for, so they finished up that one and started over on mine. When that first one was completed and sold as an in-stock, it was listed as a Master Grade, one-piece top...and the top that I got on mine looks like it was likely from the same billet. So, there's a lot of chances for getting "hooked up" when there's any aspect of hand-selection on a build.

I would advise looking at the grades the following way:

4A: Most are really good, but there's some meh every once in a while...a 3A that happened to test well that day.

5A: Don't look at 5A as specifically a step up, but *look at it more as a filter.* The average 5A might not be a whole lot better than the average 4A, but it'll filter out the "meh" tops that were barely better than what they would rate as a 3A. This is the real bang-for-the-buck upgrade, as I think it's worth the upgrade to reduce the chances of getting a top you'd be disappointed with.

7A/Master Grade: This one I have a hard time justifying with flamed maple and burled maple, because I just don't see a big enough jump. But with quilted maple you'll get wider, and deeper-looking tubes/pockets (but a lot of 5A is also excellent). With flamed koa and claro walnut, you'll get more defined flame and more contrasty-striping in the grain. In addition, with this grade, they're more open to taking specific requests and photo matches. Like, if you want buckeye burl with mostly grey? They will make that note. If you want more of the cream so your colored finish pops more? They'll make that note. Want a quilt with smaller (but still really defined) "bubbles" instead of "tubes"? they'll make that note. But, it's worth mentioning that they'll only filter some of what they have available and ready at the time. If you say you want creamy buckeye, they won't go digging through their whole shop to find "the one". They'll look through the tops they have prepped, and pick the one that's most creamy.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> Generally, yes: the higher the grade, the more consistent and the more defined the figuring will be.
> 
> There are a lot of challenges to get defined differences between the grades, though.
> 
> 1) Their standard 4A encompasses everything from just barely better than 3A to a top could start out looking just as good as a 5A, but has maybe one flatter area, or one knot that holds it back from being rated 5A...but then that spot might end up under a bridge or pickup, or be cut off in a cutaway. Or once the top is carved and sanded, the figuring could come out a little more. Or maybe their last batch had a ton of 5A, and their shelves happen to be full of 5A, so they are letting more 5A slide as 4A just for the sake of efficiency. I have no proof of that, but it's a hunch based on what I've seen from many of their live shop walks and how Jeff talks about the selection process, and also how they mill all of their bodies and tops in-house.
> 2) Some woods don't have a whole lot of difference between the grades, like flamed maple. Burled poplar is a bit easier, because you go from small patches of burls (4A) to about half the top covered in burls (5a) to most of the top being burled (7A, aka Master Grade).
> 3) If you get a "Jeff" finish, since he picks all of the upgraded tops, he's likely going to pick one that'll more likely show off his finish even better.
> 4) When I ordered my SH6, I was getting a "Jeff" finish, and I gave him a budget and some leeway (within parameters). One of them was "min 5A top". Now, when mine was built, they made a mistake and built it with the standard mahogany body wood instead of the ash I asked for, so they finished up that one and started over on mine. When that first one was completed and sold as an in-stock, it was listed as a Master Grade, one-piece top...and the top that I got on mine looks like it was likely from the same billet. So, there's a lot of chances for getting "hooked up" when there's any aspect of hand-selection on a build.
> 
> I would advise looking at the grades the following way:
> 
> 4A: Most are really good, but there's some meh every once in a while...a 3A that happened to test well that day.
> 
> 5A: Don't look at 5A as specifically a step up, but *look at it more as a filter.* The average 5A might not be a whole lot better than the average 4A, but it'll filter out the "meh" tops that were barely better than what they would rate as a 3A. This is the real bang-for-the-buck upgrade, as I think it's worth the upgrade to reduce the chances of getting a top you'd be disappointed with.
> 
> 7A/Master Grade: This one I have a hard time justifying with flamed maple and burled maple, because I just don't see a big enough jump. But with quilted maple you'll get wider, and deeper-looking tubes/pockets (but a lot of 5A is also excellent). With flamed koa and claro walnut, you'll get more defined flame and more contrasty-striping in the grain. In addition, with this grade, they're more open to taking specific requests and photo matches. Like, if you want buckeye burl with mostly grey? They will make that note. If you want more of the cream so your colored finish pops more? They'll make that note. Want a quilt with smaller (but still really defined) "bubbles" instead of "tubes"? they'll make that note. But, it's worth mentioning that they'll only filter some of what they have available and ready at the time. If you say you want creamy buckeye, they won't go digging through their whole shop to find "the one". They'll look through the tops they have prepped, and pick the one that's most creamy.


Ok, cool, great explanation. I wasn’t sure if the wide, tubular quilted pieces were considered more desirable, and that was what lead to the higher grade, or if it was the consistency of the pattern, or what. I agree about the flame, though. Doesn’t seem much different there. But all of the quilt tops I see look essentially the same. But maybe people are too embarrassed to show off their hum drum standard quilts, so we only see the nice standard ones.


----------



## Hollowway

I’m sure this is on here somewhere, but what Floyds did Carvin and Kiesel use for 7 strings? Were they always consistently one version? Or did it change with the year or model? I’ve got a DC727 I need to buy a new baseplate for (a knife edge is completely jacked up) but I’m not sure if I should buy the Original, Special, or Pro.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> I’m sure this is on here somewhere, but what Floyds did Carvin and Kiesel use for 7 strings? Were they always consistently one version? Or did it change with the year or model? I’ve got a DC727 I need to buy a new baseplate for (a knife edge is completely jacked up) but I’m not sure if I should buy the Original, Special, or Pro.


For most of the Carvin-branded era, it was a Ping-made licensed unit. At a glance, if the bridge is chrome or gold, you can tell it's this one because the fine tuners are matched, where they would be black on the later trem). Later, they used the Original 1000 which has a narrower string spacing than the german-made OFR 7-string, and more closely matched that Ping unit.

Someone over on the BBS about 10 years ago replaced his Ping unit with an OFR, and posted this:


> It's almost a drop-in swap. The Floyd needed the treble-side hook and front of the baseplate to be ground back a bit for proper clearance though.
> 
> I also followed heffergm's advice and got hardened posts, as the originals apparently don't hold up to the much harder steel knives of the OFR.




Edit: Looks like you've been chasing this for a while.  https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/carvin-floyd-rose.344173/#post-5196362


----------



## laxu

bigcupholder said:


> Lithiums are painfully thin and bright. The upper treble/presence extends way past what a normal humbucker captures. The bass is cut way back, low mids are scooped. The most appealing description I could come up with is this: a modern-voiced single coil in a humbucker package. I swapped them out after a few weeks and never regretted it.


I'll always defend the Lithiums. I had a love/hate relationship with them initially but now think they are very good pickups. They are extremely articulate which is where that low mid scoop helps. Similarly it helps for clarity under high gain, as does having a lot of top end. To me it's essential to have a tone knob with these pickups and actually use it. You will hate them if you don't have one or are the type who just puts vol and tone on 10.


----------



## CanserDYI

laxu said:


> I'll always defend the Lithiums. I had a love/hate relationship with them initially but now think they are very good pickups. They are extremely articulate which is where that low mid scoop helps. Similarly it helps for clarity under high gain, as does having a lot of top end. To me it's essential to have a tone knob with these pickups and actually use it. You will hate them if you don't have one or are the type who just puts vol and tone on 10.


Agreed, I love my lithium bridge pup in my Vanquish, but I don't use a tone knob. I just roll back some presence on my patches and I love the crisp bite of them, and their stiff low end.


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## ExMachina

Another lover of the lithium pups in my 8 string here. Tons of clarity and I just compensate using patches as well, still dime the vol/tone


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## MaxOfMetal

The pickups are fine. 

I think folks who buy Kiesels, especially first time buyers, fall into two big categories: those who are buying their first guitar over a certain price, and those who this is the first time spec'ing something out, obviously not all, but I think a significant amount given what I've seen, and those groups just don't have the experience to really know what to expect.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> For most of the Carvin-branded era, it was a Ping-made licensed unit. At a glance, if the bridge is chrome or gold, you can tell it's this one because the fine tuners are matched, where they would be black on the later trem). Later, they used the Original 1000 which has a narrower string spacing than the german-made OFR 7-string, and more closely matched that Ping unit.
> 
> Someone over on the BBS about 10 years ago replaced his Ping unit with an OFR, and posted this:
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Looks like you've been chasing this for a while.  https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/carvin-floyd-rose.344173/#post-5196362


 Yes! I never replaced it. But FR is having a sale this weekend, so that motivated me to fire it back up. It appears that the Original 1000 is now called the Special (the pdf of the Special dimensions says Original 1000 on it).

I did see the thread about the OFR maybe being slightly wide, and I would normally just get the OFR, but I'm hoping to just get the baseplate, and swap out the other parts. If the actual unit is a Special (original 1000) then I should be able to just get a new baseplate. Otherwise I'll cough up a couple hundred extra and get the OFR.


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## MaxOfMetal

Hollowway said:


> Yes! I never replaced it. But FR is having a sale this weekend, so that motivated me to fire it back up. It appears that the Original 1000 is now called the Special (the pdf of the Special dimensions says Original 1000 on it).
> 
> I did see the thread about the OFR maybe being slightly wide, and I would normally just get the OFR, but I'm hoping to just get the baseplate, and swap out the other parts. If the actual unit is a Special (original 1000) then I should be able to just get a new baseplate. Otherwise I'll cough up a couple hundred extra and get the OFR.



The Korean made 1000 series 7-string is not available at retail, only provided OEM. 

Which leaves the German/Schaller made Original 7 and Chinese made Special series 7. 

There is also the Korean/Sung-Il made Pro (low profile) 7.


----------



## Hollowway

MaxOfMetal said:


> The Korean made 1000 series 7-string is not available at retail, only provided OEM.
> 
> Which leaves the German/Schaller made Original 7 and Chinese made Special series 7.
> 
> There is also the Korean/Sung-Il made Pro (low profile) 7.


Hmm, so I’m probably better off with the OFR. I just get worried about this business of filing the knife edges to get it to fit the posts of the 1000, like I saw in the one guy’s thread. 
If the Chinese special and the Korean special have the same dimensions, I could get a baseplate for a quick fix, I guess.


----------



## lurè

If you can compensate for the over the top high treble of the lithiums, they're a fine. Actually the neck pickup is quite good.

Since is geared towards 7 and 8 string/ low tuned guitar, they just made a pickup with 0 low end and 100% high end; if you play on a helix/axefx is not a problem but i can see some people having trouble with the shrillness.

Holdsworth are really versatile and can cover everything. Not as tight as the lithiums but more mid focused and lower output. Imagine a classic PAF with way more mids.


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## spudmunkey

One thing that I'm hoping will be made clearer by their impending release of a virtual builder for their pickups, will be a better understanding of which pickups are availble in which configurations. Maybe the modularity of the builder may inspire them to be more flexible for things like multiscale versions of some if the pickups.

What I mean is there were often questions about which pickups were available in 7 or 8 string or not, the holdsworth being one of them. 7-string versions seemed to be an on-again, off-again situation over the years, in spite of there even having been a short run of HH7 models. I don't believe they've ever made an 8-string Holdsworth pickup.

I don't know much about pickup construction,, but it makes sense that there are still going to be some limitations. From what I understand, you can't just take a 6 string design, and lengthen it. In some cases, they may not have a source for that specific magnet in the length you'd need for a 7, or they just haven't done the engineering to design a longer pickup that's close-enough voiced to the 6-string version. Not only are you dealing with a different magnet, but I believe you sometimes have to play with the wire (the quantity of winds vs total wire length) to dial them in to be close enough to be considered the "same".


----------



## Lord Voldemort

I'd love to see some new pickup models with the builder as well. Off my head I can only thing of Lithiums, Bellyriums, Illusionist/Emeryeon, Holdsworth, Thorium, Polarity and I'm sure they have single varieties that I'm missing but I'm not sure. 

Maybe I'm not understanding the point of the pup builder, is it meant to be custom winds to your specs?


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## spudmunkey

Lord Voldemort said:


> Maybe I'm not understanding the point of the pup builder, is it meant to be custom winds to your specs?


More of just a way to visualize what different combinations of bobbin colors and pole piece options would look like. The pickup models and their specs (including the *type* of pole pieces) will likely be unchanged/unchangeable.


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## Avedas

Lithium neck is sweet, but I didn't like the bridge version at all. I don't think I play the kind of music that facilitates that kind of sound. I have the Illusionist in my 7 and it's so good.

And uh, maybe just my personal preference but the Lithium single coils in my Delos were near unusable for trying to sound anything like a strat. Too hot and too bright for clean and light breakup tones, although it fit better with higher gain. I was intending to put a different set in them anyway, but I don't think that Lithiums lasted a day before I swapped them out.


----------



## RadoncROCKs

I'm not a pickup guy and I can't discuss with y'al in the discrete language here.

But I play things from Intervals/Polyphia style to much heavier metal with my Kiesels and I've finally figured out what I like.

I have two Kiesels with two Lithiums. Can't really get the heaviest sounds I want on my Drop C one. Found some great mid gain sounds on the mid position on the other. 
Had a Kiesel that I sold with a Thorium bridge and could get most of what I wanted for heavier Drop C stuff.

My newest build has Illusionist in bridge and Holdsworth in neck and I can get all the heavy I want in bridge with all the rest elsewhere. What a great combo.


----------



## Themistocles

spudmunkey said:


> The Thorium is their highest-output pickup, bridge only. The Empyrean is meant to be the best neck pickup to pair with it, and is Scott Carstairs pairing of choice.
> 
> The Illusionist is the Lee McKinney Bridge pickup model. Output is between the Lithium and Thorium. Some folks like to pair the Illusionist with the Holdsworth neck.
> 
> Lithium is their standard. Bright and articulate (some might say to a fault). Can get great tones, but will usually need different settings than many other pickups.
> 
> Beryllium is their slightly more vintage sounding standard pickup on models like their Les Paul-alike and PRS-esque models. Still very "modern, though, IMO, but is my favorite between the Lithium and Beryllium. It's also the standard pickup on the Chris Letchford model, so I think it's pretty flexible.
> 
> The Holdsworths, Frank Gamble and Greg Howe Parallax, I haven't thr vocabulary or experience with them to be of help. The Holdsworths are petty well-liked, though un-potted.


Love the Holdsworsths for my Vader 7. a hot PAF that is super articulate and the leads really cut/sing. Better for heavy music than you would think... getting some of my best lead and rhythm tones with it. never harsh. Get 2 holdsworths and useing the middle position (2 split coils neck and bridge) is excellent for leads as it retains the cut but adds the sustain all whilebeing hyper articulate. Chords have nice string definition. Overall one of my favoite pickups and well balanced... can do anything. (other faves are the Titan 7 and tone zone 7) but with less output (that's good in my book). Im an out there fusion, jazz-prog who adds in some doom. One can really nail that John Sykes tone with these.


----------



## Themistocles

MaxOfMetal said:


> The pickups are fine.
> 
> I think folks who buy Kiesels, especially first time buyers, fall into two big categories: those who are buying their first guitar over a certain price, and those who this is the first time spec'ing something out, obviously not all, but I think a significant amount given what I've seen, and those groups just don't have the experience to really know what to expect.


yeah, custom anything is a steep learning curve and guitars require one to have your playing needs together... hard if you are still figuring things out.


----------



## Alberto7

Also, does Kiesel still do threaded metal inserts for the back cavity covers like Carvin used to?
I just did a setup of my DC727, and while checking the electronics I remembered how much I love threaded inserts like these. Such a small detail, but it's great attention to detail, and it saves me the headache of possibly stripping a screw. To me it's always been a sign of good quality.

Was just curious if Kiesel still did this.


----------



## spudmunkey

Alberto7 said:


> Also, does Kiesel still do threaded metal inserts for the back cavity covers like Carvin used to?
> I just did a setup of my DC727, and while checking the electronics I remembered how much I love threaded inserts like these. Such a small detail, but it's great attention to detail, and it saves me the headache of possibly stripping a screw. To me it's always been a sign of good quality.
> 
> Was just curious if Kiesel still did this.
> View attachment 113796


Yep. Still do it. At least I have it on my 2020, and haven't heard otherwise from anyone else's NGD posts since.


----------



## budda

Themistocles said:


> yeah, custom anything is a steep learning curve and guitars require one to have your playing needs together... hard if you are still figuring things out.


Ah, but having your playing needs isnt actually required. Just expected. That’s part of why we see so many customs listed for sale.


----------



## CanserDYI

Alberto7 said:


> Also, does Kiesel still do threaded metal inserts for the back cavity covers like Carvin used to?
> I just did a setup of my DC727, and while checking the electronics I remembered how much I love threaded inserts like these. Such a small detail, but it's great attention to detail, and it saves me the headache of possibly stripping a screw. To me it's always been a sign of good quality.
> 
> Was just curious if Kiesel still did this.
> View attachment 113796


My 2021 also has these inserts and I love them for it.


----------



## Alberto7

spudmunkey said:


> Yep. Still do it. At least I have it on my 2020, and haven't heard otherwise from anyone else's NGD posts since.





CanserDYI said:


> My 2021 also has these inserts and I love them for it.


Awesome!

I've hated on Kiesel quite a lot in the past, but just because I have a problem with how Jeff has behaved. I've dissociated that from the guitars quite a lot by now, and have been warming myself up to the idea that buying a used Kiesel at some point would be kinda cool. If the quality is at least as good as my Carvin, then it's a great guitar.


----------



## Themistocles

Alberto7 said:


> Awesome!
> 
> I've hated on Kiesel quite a lot in the past, but just because I have a problem with how Jeff has behaved. I've dissociated that from the guitars quite a lot by now, and have been warming myself up to the idea that buying a used Kiesel at some point would be kinda cool. If the quality is at least as good as my Carvin, then it's a great guitar.


yeah too much gets made of Jeff... building dream guitars as a business is inherently fraught... being in the music industry is inherently fraught... splitting a 75 year old family run company that has devotees is also fraught and my sense is he's grown. At the same time he clearly was the man fora difficult job. 

BTW my 2021-22 kiesel Vader 7 (one of the last 2021's built and shipped) is better than my 2000 Carvin Dc 747. It does my heart some good actually, Nice to see something getting better as time goes by. I prefer the 20 inch radius and the build quaitiy and refinements are just better. That said the 747 is special and even if it isnt my daily driver Im quite fond of it.

Yes Kiesel still does the inserts


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Just snagged that cute little lady on Facebook. I was thinking of putting a labor day order in but my Vader took 5-6 months to get to me and I wasn't feeling the antique ash this go around.

I'm excited to try out those fishman singles! Walnut neck as well. 4th Kiesel now but my first used one.


----------



## CanserDYI

Lord Voldemort said:


> View attachment 114065
> View attachment 114066
> 
> Just snagged that cute little lady on Facebook. I was thinking of putting a labor day order in but my Vader took 5-6 months to get to me and I wasn't feeling the antique ash this go around.
> 
> I'm excited to try out those fishman singles! Walnut neck as well. 4th Kiesel now but my first used one.


You'll love the Walnut neck, it's one of the softest smoothest necks I've ever felt. Mines solid walnut too.


----------



## ShredmasterD

can you mention if something is on the sweetwater exchange?


----------



## spudmunkey

This looks to be a deal and a half. Neck-through Bromberg bass for $700? If I was in the market for a bass in that price range, it'd be hard to turn that down.








Used Carvin Brian bromberg B24


Looking for a used Carvin Brian bromberg B24? Enjoy a great deal on Carvin Brian bromberg B24s and other used bass guitars at Sweetwater!




www.sweetwater.com





That 7-string black Vader guitar seems like it'd be a good get, too, for $925, despite the ding in the back.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

Thinking about putting in an order before the year ends. I really like the specs on the Marc Okubo model, that or a DC600 (longshot Vader) 
reversed pointy
metallic finish (lavender or one of the lambos, possibly color shift green/gold)
alder body
Floyd (or the hip shot trem) 
1 bridge hum only! 
walnut neck.


----------



## spudmunkey

CanserDYI said:


> @spudmunkey I cant access the BBS now, did they take it down??






spudmunkey said:


> It's still working for me. Are you sure you're going to the https version of the site and not the http?
> 
> https://www.kieselguitarsbbs.com/
> 
> I'm positive it'll only last until someone gets a bill for it , and someone with some decision-making power is reminded that it still exists.  Only me and one other user are in the "10,000+ post club", but I suspect it'll be closed before I can crack 20,000 (830 posts to go...)



Well, I was right...381 short if 20k.

Just an FYI:






It's official: KieselGuitarsBBS end of life: 9/30/2022 - KieselGuitarsBBS.com







www.kieselguitarsbbs.com





R.I.P. (soon)

One favor: I know some people have a plethora of reasons to dislike Kiesel, but for those of us long-timers over there (many for multiple decades) who are still around, we're trying to keep things positive, civil over there until the plug is pulled in 2 weeks. Let's keep it that way, please. And if you're offended/challenged by that request, you're specifically likely who I'm talking about.


----------



## Hollowway

Aw, man, that sucks. I lurk on there a LOT. There are some awesome threads of knowledge, and a lot of great photos to get the creativity going. I hope that they’ll at least archive it and keep it up as a searchable database.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> Aw, man, that sucks. I lurk on there a LOT. There are some awesome threads of knowledge, and a lot of great photos to get the creativity going. I hope that they’ll at least archive it and keep it up as a searchable database.


I've been asking around for ways to do this from the outside, but it's all over my head.


----------



## CanserDYI

spudmunkey said:


> I've been asking around for ways to do this from the outside, but it's all over my head.


Think the way back machine will grab it? Or can we request it to?


----------



## DropTheSun

I just got Kiesel Delos 6.

Specs:
-Alder Body
-Roasted maple neck
-Ebony fretboard
-Luminlay dots
-Stainless steel Medium Jumbo frets
-Hipshot Bridge
-Illusionist (Bridge), Holdsworth (neck) pickups

This guitar feels really good in hand and plays extremely well. My biggest surprise was the pickups. Illusionist in the bridge is modern and pretty bright sounding with good bottom end. Holdsworth on the neck is lower output and has some nice spank and in position 4 (split coil) it offers great singlecoil tones. 

The fretwork is perfect. I setup my neck relief so, that it has about 0,3mm between 12th fret and strings (when I press 1st and last fret). String height is 1.7-1.5mm.

I can’t find anything bad to say about this guitar. I’ve had few Vaders in the past and have one Vader 6 at the moment as well. All of them have been great and so is this Delos 6.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> I've been asking around for ways to do this from the outside, but it's all over my head.


There are softwares that will copy an entire website (like HTTrack) but I'm not sure how it works with forums, and how much storage would be required for the Carvin forum. 

I would think that Jeff, etc. would WANT to keep it. It would cost next to nothing to archive it, and leave it up, but dormant.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> There are softwares that will copy an entire website (like HTTrack) but I'm not sure how it works with forums, and how much storage would be required for the Carvin forum.
> 
> I would think that Jeff, etc. would WANT to keep it. It would cost next to nothing to archive it, and leave it up, but dormant.


The trick is that most of the "information" worth archiving is buried in pages-deep conversations. The odds of someone looking for it, and being willing to search through a dead forum without being able to post a question, would likely be zero after a year if it being gone. The only real other way would be for someone to go through all 30k topics and take notes. Another time, it may have been something I'd volunteer to do, but can't at the moment.


----------



## ArtDecade

Does Kiesel make any models available with a MIDI pickup? I saw that Holdsworth had one at some point, but that might have been the Carvin days on the Fat Boy models.


----------



## spudmunkey

ArtDecade said:


> Does Kiesel make any models available with a MIDI pickup? I saw that Holdsworth had one at some point, but that might have been the Carvin days on the Fat Boy models.


They do offer a synth access system on a bunch of models, just not on the builder for most. They all need their "standard" control cavity size, so no headless, for example. But I've seen them do it on a DC600. There's also the NS1 nylons string which has it standard. It is on the builder for the SH550 model (used to be called the SH575...may still be considered that internally). From the SH550 builder:


----------



## RevelGTR

I’m pretty sure I was like 12 or 13 when I joined the Carvin forum, around 2008ish. I was obsessed with the Ultra V and V220. It makes me sad seeing these forums die off one by one, though I’ll admit the only ones I still use are this and TGP. Sadly it looks like the Kiesel/Carvin forum has been extremely slow for a long time, I’ll miss the ability to go back and look at old threads though.


----------



## spudmunkey

Yeah, like most forums these days, it's been slow for a while.

I think the biggest loss for me will a sudden lack of Google image search results for certain things.


----------



## RevelGTR

I always say I’m done with Kiesel and then end up putting something I like together in the builder on a whim  This at least would qualify for the 10 day trial so I’m tempted to give it a shot, the Kiesel FB group was mad at me for selling my last one haha.


----------



## Hollowway

I’m sure I’ve been told before, but what are the builds that wind up in the in stock section? Are they all returned / bailed-on customer builds? Or are some just made for in-stock? I ask because there are some models that show up constantly (Andy James) and some that very rarely show up (7 string Zeus bass) and some that never show up (9 string Aries). If they’re built for in-stock, it must not be used for sales, because there are some that are essentially duplicates of other guitars still in stock, whereas others - like the 7 string bass - have only showed up a couple of times, and sold really quickly.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> I’m sure I’ve been told before, but what are the builds that wind up in the in stock section? Are they all returned / bailed-on customer builds? Or are some just made for in-stock? I ask because there are some models that show up constantly (Andy James) and some that very rarely show up (7 string Zeus bass) and some that never show up (9 string Aries). If they’re built for in-stock, it must not be used for sales, because there are some that are essentially duplicates of other guitars still in stock, whereas others - like the 7 string bass - have only showed up a couple of times, and sold really quickly.



Most are built as "extras" for the in-stock.

If they catch a mistake, they'll complete the guitar and sell it. When they were building my last guitar, they caught a wood selection error, so they re-built mine, and they completed the "error" in a lower-priced spec (with a standard finish instead of one of Jeff's hand-done finishes) and put it in GIS.

Sometimes it's cancelled orders, and sometimes they are 10-day trial returns.

Most, though, are "extras". When Jeff does his factory walk-throughs and looks at the order tags, he always comes across some that are extras. The AJs seem to sell super well, but I'm shocked they let a day go by without a JB24 and a JB200C in stock.


----------



## spudmunkey

Ooh...they've finally added "Blacked Out Ash Treatment" to the "Additional Options" menu. It's basically a very dark version of their "Antique Ash Treatment" . It's one of the two specs I wish I would have gone with on my last Kiesel, an SH6. I went with the "transparent black", which is a transparent paint, and you don't see as much of the wood grain color difference as I would have liked.


----------



## CanserDYI

Can someone who is good at Photoshop edit that multiscale Aries above to where the bridge pickup aligns with the angle of the bridge and the neck pup aligns with the angle of the neck, where the pickups fan with the scale?

Always wondered why they stick with the angle of the neck?


----------



## spudmunkey

CanserDYI said:


> Always wondered why they stick with the angle of the neck?



I'm sure it's as simple as not needing to make pickup base plates in two different shapes. 

IMO, guitars with two different angles look cross-eyed, or like it's melting.


----------



## Jads57

Long Shot! Does anyone have a Kiesel HH7 Alan Holdsworth seven string model with a standard profile neck they want to sell? The plainer the woods the better!
Thanks!


----------



## cardinal

spudmunkey said:


> Ooh...they've finally added "Blacked Out Ash Treatment" to the "Additional Options" menu. It's basically a very dark version of their "Antique Ash Treatment" . It's one of the two specs I wish I would have gone with on my last Kiesel, an SH6. I went with the "transparent black", which is a transparent paint, and you don't see as much of the wood grain color difference as I would have liked.
> View attachment 116680


Blacked Out Ash has been one of their better finish options IMHO. Glad it's now easier to order.


----------



## NoodleFace

Going to sell my carvin dc727, just can't bond with it like my Aries. Probably list it here in a day or so.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> , or like it's melting.


The Persistence of Pickups


----------



## laxu

RevelGTR said:


> I always say I’m done with Kiesel and then end up putting something I like together in the builder on a whim  This at least would qualify for the 10 day trial so I’m tempted to give it a shot, the Kiesel FB group was mad at me for selling my last one haha.
> View attachment 116113


Looks nice!

IMO the Aries multiscale is still the best model they make.


----------



## mikernaut

__





Kiesel Guitars Black Friday Sale


To celebrate Black Friday 2022, save on select options via our online virtual builder; as well as, call in only options.



www.kieselguitars.com


----------



## spudmunkey

mikernaut said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kiesel Guitars Black Friday Sale
> 
> 
> To celebrate Black Friday 2022, save on select options via our online virtual builder; as well as, call in only options.
> 
> 
> 
> www.kieselguitars.com


Fewer "free" options, but lots of discounts.

Also, a new option for the builder:


----------



## CanserDYI

Is it actually on sale or do they always go for $100?

Even $100 is steep on that, let alone 2.


----------



## mikernaut

CanserDYI said:


> Is it actually on sale or do they always go for $100?
> 
> Even $100 is steep on that, let alone 2.


It is normally $200 for 2 pickups. but Jeff stated on the live show today it's on sale for $100 for both pickups. I caved and did it even though it is rather $$, cuz I really wanted the look for my build.


----------



## spudmunkey

A CS6 in white, with grabber blue pickups would probably be my #1 build to if i were to pick something from the menu. Either that, or an all-white Delos with the Tropic pickups. Maybe a Black Magic Metallic Crescent with the Hot Pink pickups...


----------



## Themistocles

mikernaut said:


> It is normally $200 for 2 pickups. but Jeff stated on the live show today it's on sale for $100 for both pickups. I caved and did it even though it is rather $$, cuz I really wanted the look for my build.


looks great... wish they did metal flake fwiw


----------



## xzacx

Wow, I had no idea it was that much to change pickups colors. I think Dimarzio charges like...$7 or something for pickups in non-standard colors. You could get a full set, with the benefit of them being Dimarzios (and I don't even think Kiesel pickups are bad, just not as good and a lot more choice), for roughly the same price.


----------



## CanserDYI

I'm sure it's more of something they kind of "have" to offer at this point but is a pain in the ass to do and get right as I'm pretty sure they're painting them. So, they are pricing it to make sense to make money while not getting flooded with requests. 

Still think it's silly.


----------



## CapinCripes

Yeah as much as I love some fr00ty pickup colors, if I bought a kiesel the stock pickups are coming out.


----------



## BigViolin

Jeff coming up with fresh new ways to be fuck all tacky.


----------



## Themistocles

xzacx said:


> Wow, I had no idea it was that much to change pickups colors. I think Dimarzio charges like...$7 or something for pickups in non-standard colors. You could get a full set, with the benefit of them being Dimarzios (and I don't even think Kiesel pickups are bad, just not as good and a lot more choice), for roughly the same price.


There is a big difference between painting bobins to exactly match the finishes you offer on the guitar and simply ordering plastic bobbins in various colors that cannot match in the same way. Hence the upcharge. Is it tacky? Only if you have tacky design ideas. By virue of what they are these additional options are simply more rope to hang yourself with or be awesome... all depending on your design skills.


----------



## xzacx

Themistocles said:


> There is a big difference between painting bobins to exactly match the finishes you offer on the guitar and simply ordering plastic bobbins in various colors that cannot match in the same way. Hence the upcharge. Is it tacky? Only if you have tacky design ideas. By virue of what they are these additional options are simply more rope to hang yourself with or be awesome... all depending on your design skills.


That's a fair point, I wasn't thinking about it from the perspective of matching the exact finish of the guitar—more in the Jem/UV complimentary color kind of way. Regardless, I didn't mean it as a criticism of Kiesel, more like as a consumer I don't think I'd be interested.


----------



## Themistocles

xzacx said:


> That's a fair point, I wasn't thinking about it from the perspective of matching the exact finish of the guitar—more in the Jem/UV complimentary color kind of way. Regardless, I didn't mean it as a criticism of Kiesel, more like as a consumer I don't think I'd be interested.


yeah metallic silver flake could be nice for the glam/artrock look. But that can come in time... the british racing green is a very nice option to have as is seafoam... cool things afe possible with greens. Would like to have seen a burgundy and the silverflake. Gunmetal?


----------



## spudmunkey

Themistocles said:


> yeah metallic silver flake could be nice for the glam/artrock look. But that can come in time... the british racing green is a very nice option to have as is seafoam... cool things afe possible with greens. Would like to have seen a burgundy and the silverflake. Gunmetal?



It's not on the builder (only the solid colors), but in yesyerday's Live Q&A, Jeff mentioned that they could do the metallics, too. They have a Red Metallic, which is a great color, but lighter than burgundy, and they have a Gunmetal Metallic. They said they _couldn't _do the metal flake, though. If I had to guess, their metal flake and clear coats would probably be too thick without having to spend a shit ton of time doing fine touch-up work on each bobbin before and after finishing. He said they used to charge $200 _per pickup_, but now it'll just be a flat $200 per ordered guitar (HH, H_S, Hxx, SSS, etc), but on sale for $100 now. Currently, the pickups where they offer different molded plastic bobbins (white, black, cream, Kiesel Racing Green and a couple "zebra" combinations), anything other than straight black is $20 per guitar. On those, the color is the plastic itself.

They did say they had three exceptions on the pickups you can get it on:
1. Mark's Singles single coils. If I had to guess, it's because the magnetic pole pieces are a much tighter fit, and since the pickup parts are painted before assembly, the paint is more likely to fail around the holes.
2. Their "Music Man"-looking humbuckers. If I had to guess, it's the same issue.
3. The TBH60 "Twinblade" single coil-sized humbucker, because (as far as I know) it's their one pickup they don't make in-house.

He didn't mention them, but I assume they also won't paint the Johnny Hiland pickups, the McRocklin Fishmans (which are already purple), the EMGs on the Cole Roland, and the Seymour Duncans offered on the JB24 and the Greg Howe.




Red metallic:



Gunmetal Metallic:




In 2018, did had a little jab at the Silver Sky and did a custom silver metallic. I've seen them use it a couple times, but I believe it'd still be considered a "custom" color, and pretty pricey.


----------



## Themistocles

spudmunkey said:


> It's not on the builder (only the solid colors), but in yesyerday's Live Q&A, Jeff mentioned that they could do the metallics, too. They have a Red Metallic, which is a great color, but lighter than burgundy, and they have a Gunmetal Metallic. They said they _couldn't _do the metal flake, though. If I had to guess, their metal flake and clear coats would probably be too thick without having to spend a shit ton of time doing fine touch-up work on each bobbin before and after finishing. He said they used to charge $200 _per pickup_, but now it'll just be a flat $200 per ordered guitar (HH, H_S, Hxx, SSS, etc), but on sale for $100 now. Currently, the pickups where they offer different molded plastic bobbins (white, black, cream, Kiesel Racing Green and a couple "zebra" combinations), anything other than straight black is $20 per guitar. On those, the color is the plastic itself.
> 
> They did say they had three exceptions on the pickups you can get it on:
> 1. Mark's Singles single coils. If I had to guess, it's because the magnetic pole pieces are a much tighter fit, and since the pickup parts are painted before assembly, the paint is more likely to fail around the holes.
> 2. Their "Music Man"-looking humbuckers. If I had to guess, it's the same issue.
> 3. The TBH60 "Twinblade" single coil-sized humbucker, because (as far as I know) it's their one pickup they don't make in-house.
> 
> He didn't mention them, but I assume they also won't paint the Johnny Hiland pickups, the McRocklin Fishmans (which are already purple), the EMGs on the Cole Roland, and the Seymour Duncans offered on the JB24 and the Greg Howe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Red metallic:
> View attachment 116916
> 
> 
> Gunmetal Metallic:
> View attachment 116918
> 
> 
> 
> In 2018, did had a little jab at the Silver Sky and did a custom silver metallic. I've seen them use it a couple times, but I believe it'd still be considered a "custom" color, and pretty pricey.
> View attachment 116919


yeah the gunmetal is rad... makes sense that the serious flake would be tricky on a bobbin.


----------



## ExMachina

If my wife would let me I'd be all over this. Time it to A standard and go.


----------



## CanserDYI

ExMachina said:


> If my wife would let me I'd be all over this. Time it to A standard and go.
> View attachment 116945


Give that a blue paint job instead of the burl top, black burst still, everything else the same, and that'd be my choice!


----------



## ExMachina

CanserDYI said:


> Give that a blue paint job instead of the burl top, black burst still, everything else the same, and that'd be my choice!


Swap to luminlay inlays, for all those shows I don't play


----------



## RadoncROCKs

Can someone riddle me this...

For the set necks - Crescent, CT24, etc - why is there usually a line of gloss finish/paint extending past the neck joint onto the very bottom of the neck? Most Kiesels have this and it looks like they just lazily taped the lower neck off to spray

I wouldn't bet it impacts playability, but damn it sure does look ugly

I'd like to get a Crescent in the future and this is a hang up I have


----------



## MaxOfMetal

RadoncROCKs said:


> Can someone riddle me this...
> 
> For the set necks - Crescent, CT24, etc - why is there usually a line of gloss finish/paint extending past the neck joint onto the very bottom of the neck? Most Kiesels have this and it looks like they just lazily taped the lower neck off to spray
> 
> I wouldn't bet it impacts playability, but damn it sure does look ugly
> 
> I'd like to get a Crescent in the future and this is a hang up I have



Because that's how it works going from a color-under-clear poly to a rubbed oil. That tiny bead of clear is going to help seal the finish and prevent peeling down the line.

Go for a finish with a single top coat of it's a problem.


----------



## spudmunkey

RadoncROCKs said:


> Can someone riddle me this...
> 
> For the set necks - Crescent, CT24, etc - why is there usually a line of gloss finish/paint extending past the neck joint onto the very bottom of the neck? Most Kiesels have this and it looks like they just lazily taped the lower neck off to spray
> 
> I wouldn't bet it impacts playability, but damn it sure does look ugly
> 
> I'd like to get a Crescent in the future and this is a hang up I have


It was a compromise. Around the end of 2020/beginning of 2021, they decided that the amount of labor/time it took to clean up those inside transition corners between the tung oil and the clear finish was too much, and was costing them too much to where they were going to have to increase the costs of those models so much, sales of those models would likely tank.

It's definitely a really tricky thing to do cleanly. I remember when the first Abasi builds showed up in...was it Japan? This was a common place for issues with them, too.

Because volume is part of why Kiesels aren't more expensive, there are certain things they do in the name of efficiency, like standard tung oil necks, no painted necks at all on bolt-ons, batching out the sparkle finishes, etc. The set-neck finish line location is one of those.


----------



## cardinal

Seriously considering ordering a Kiesel Aries 6-string with a Floyd. Simple specs: 3-piece maple neck, 12" radius, richlite board, jumbo SS, mahogany body maybe with a plain maple top, solid white finish.

Tell me why this would be a bad idea. I love my USA M-II DX but I want something similar to keep in drop D and getting another ESP is proving to be challenging. The Kiesel on paper would seem similar and people seem to say that the Kiesel fretwork is pretty good.


----------



## CanserDYI

cardinal said:


> Seriously considering ordering a Kiesel Aries 6-string with a Floyd. Simple specs: 3-piece maple neck, 12" radius, richlite board, jumbo SS, mahogany body maybe with a plain maple top, solid white finish.
> 
> Tell me why this would be a bad idea. I love my USA M-II DX but I want something similar to keep in drop D and getting another ESP is proving to be challenging. The Kiesel on paper would seem similar and people seem to say that the Kiesel fretwork is pretty good.





Get ittttt. My Kiesel's fretwork is fantastic. Not ball end'ed or anything like that, but fantastic work.


----------



## cardinal

CanserDYI said:


> View attachment 117235
> 
> Get ittttt. My Kiesel's fretwork is fantastic. Not ball end'ed or anything like that, but fantastic work.


Awesome. IMHO fancy fret end finishing is way overrated. It's much more important that they actually be level and the neck is true/straight.


----------



## CanserDYI

FWIW, my vanquish has literally never needed a setup, truss rod adjustment, fret polish, bridge adjustment, intonation adjustment...shit its literally the exact same it was when I opened the box almost 2 years ago, its seriously rock solid. Its kinda crazy actually now that I think about it...my Gibsons, Fender's, Schecters, LTD's, Ibanez, etc all needed at least a few adjustments in the couple years or so I owned them...this Kiesel has survived my horribly insulated back room which goes back and forth in temp all year long without moving a muscle!


----------



## Selmer

Every now and again Guitar Center has some deals. I picked this up for $1199. A new one with these specs is about $2400 now and that's with the current Black Friday promos. So far, it's probably the best guitar I've owned.


----------



## Hollowway

Selmer said:


> View attachment 117570
> 
> Every now and again Guitar Center has some deals. I picked this up for $1199. A new one with these specs is about $2400 now and that's with the current Black Friday promos. So far, it's probably the best guitar I've owned.


I almost feel like they had a decimal error or something. That's a ridiculous deal, considering GC are basically selling everything for close to new prices these days. Great score!


----------



## NoodleFace

Considering trading my Carvin +cash for this Kiesel DC700. Not sure if it's worth it yet so kind of sleeping on it a bit. Ugh


----------



## CanserDYI

NoodleFace said:


> Considering trading my Carvin +cash for this Kiesel DC700. Not sure if it's worth it yet so kind of sleeping on it a bit. Ugh
> 
> View attachment 117587


That's a great top, I forget what Carvin you have, post a pic!


----------



## NoodleFace

CanserDYI said:


> That's a great top, I forget what Carvin you have, post a pic!


DC727, essentially kind of almost the same guitar but not quite.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

NoodleFace said:


> Considering trading my Carvin +cash for this Kiesel DC700. Not sure if it's worth it yet so kind of sleeping on it a bit. Ugh
> 
> View attachment 117587



How much cash? I'd probably entertain a straight trade if I really don't want the trem, but that's a pretty basic build to be throwing much cash in for. 

Not to mention Kiesel doesn't do Floyds on 7s, because they're assholes, so your piece can't be replaced, which has to count for something.


----------



## spudmunkey

To play Captain Obvious...If there's any way you could swing buying it and THEN deciding which to get rid of, that's obviously preferred.


----------



## spudmunkey

FYI, they are having another Pick Your Top session at 3pm pacific


----------



## CanserDYI

I get the fact that Kiesel has to make money, has to price out certain things certain ways to make things worth their time but also not so good of a deal they get swamped, etc, but there's no way in HELL that they have a hard time selling Floyd equipped 7 strings. There's just no way. Thats the one option I just don't understand them nixing.


----------



## Themistocles

NoodleFace said:


> DC727, essentially kind of almost the same guitar but not quite.
> 
> View attachment 117591


ah a 727... Id never sell my 747... might have it refinished someday to show off the koa back better... nota fan of the super thick finishes they used back then... much better now but finishes have progressed a lot.


----------



## Mboogie7

CanserDYI said:


> I get the fact that Kiesel has to make money, has to price out certain things certain ways to make things worth their time but also not so good of a deal they get swamped, etc, but there's no way in HELL that they have a hard time selling Floyd equipped 7 strings. There's just no way. Thats the one option I just don't understand them nixing.


Yeah, I’m scratching my head still at that decision. The only logical explanation I can come up with is maybe Kiesel and Hipshot worked out an agreement/contract that makes much more sense from a pricing standpoint? Then again, they offer Floyd’s with sixes, so who knows.


----------



## NoodleFace

MaxOfMetal said:


> How much cash? I'd probably entertain a straight trade if I really don't want the trem, but that's a pretty basic build to be throwing much cash in for.
> 
> Not to mention Kiesel doesn't do Floyds on 7s, because they're assholes, so your piece can't be replaced, which has to count for something.


$500. That's true. My green kiesel is a much nicer playing guitar but it has the thinnest neck option whereas the carvin has a bit of a thicker neck (regular neck option I guess).

I might just keep it and fix up the few small issues instead.

I kind of wanted a fixed bridge 7 since I have 3 Floyd equipped 7s but it's not so bad.

On the topic of them not selling 7 strings with Floyd's I don't understand either. I once commented they should bring them back and Jeff Kiesel liked my post haha.


----------



## Sir_Shreddington

Curious about what everyone thinks about the resale value of this brand when the kiesel pickups have been swapped out?

I recently had a Kiesel listed on Reverb that I ended up pulling because it wasn't getting the offers I was really looking for. I wondered if it had to do with the pickups? I got rid of the kiesel pickups because I wasn't a fan, so I replaced with bare knuckles. The guitar plays and resonates great but I wonder if I had it priced too high because of the BK I had in there. I bought a Duncan JB and 59 to replace the BK, hoping that I can price it a little lower and hopefully see more action on the listing.

I originally just wanted to try one out, so I bought it from the guitars in stock page on the website. The guitar is built well, and I'm not sure why I see so much hate for them, but it sounds like there might be consistency issues with them.

Anyway, just curious of everyone's thoughts.


----------



## John

Sir_Shreddington said:


> Curious about what everyone thinks about the resale value of this brand when the kiesel pickups have been swapped out?
> 
> I originally just wanted to try one out, so I bought it from the guitars in stock page on the website. The guitar is built well, and I'm not sure why I see so much hate for them, but it sounds like there might be consistency issues with them.
> 
> Anyway, just curious of everyone's thoughts.



Resale value for Kiesels and Carvins isn't really a thing anyway, whether you changed the pickups or not. It's just how it goes for semi-custom instruments in general (fwiw, even similar competitors like Balaguer have the same kind of thing when people tried getting rid of theirs).

And that's disregarding some of the DIY DI-why mods that some folks have done to _really_ trash whatever resale value may have been salvageable whilst flipping or trading for other things.








As for the 'hate' question you're throwing out there, there's been multiple cases from the company's side of things (ie- QC gaffes, customer service or cavernous lack thereof) to foster such sentiments, for starters.


----------



## Sir_Shreddington

John said:


> Resale value for Kiesels and Carvins aren't really a thing anyway, whether you changed the pickups or not. It's just how it goes for semi-custom instruments in general (fwiw, even similar competitors like Balaguer have the same kind of thing when people tried getting rid of theirs).
> 
> And that's disregarding some of the DIY DI-why mods that some folks have done to _really_ trash whatever resale value may have been salvageable whilst flipping or trading for other things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for the 'hate' question you're throwing out there, there's been multiple cases from the company's side of things (ie- QC gaffes, customer service or cavernous lack thereof) to foster such sentiments, for starters.


 Yikes! What did he do to that guitar?!  

Oh right, I did see those two threads before I bought from Kiesel. I also figured that buying an axe that was already made might be a quick solution to the issues. I also tried to get a spec that was pretty generalized and might appeal to more people upon resale. Ultimately I knew I was rolling the dice by 1) buying an axe before actually playing it and 2) resale may be a bit tougher because of brand recognition. Oh well, I'm sure I'll eventually get it moved.


----------



## John

Sir_Shreddington said:


> Yikes! What did he do to that guitar?!



The owner of that guitar hacked off the upper horn, the part near the logo. 
Then, if memory serves, proceeded to try selling it on Reverb near the cost of a new one. It didn't flip at the cost he was asking for, either way. In the event it finally did and it wasn't just a backpedaled ad, he would've gotten rid of it at a sizeable loss.


----------



## Benzene

Sir_Shreddington said:


> Curious about what everyone thinks about the resale value of this brand when the kiesel pickups have been swapped out?
> 
> I recently had a Kiesel listed on Reverb that I ended up pulling because it wasn't getting the offers I was really looking for. I wondered if it had to do with the pickups? I got rid of the kiesel pickups because I wasn't a fan, so I replaced with bare knuckles. The guitar plays and resonates great but I wonder if I had it priced too high because of the BK I had in there. I bought a Duncan JB and 59 to replace the BK, hoping that I can price it a little lower and hopefully see more action on the listing.
> 
> I originally just wanted to try one out, so I bought it from the guitars in stock page on the website. The guitar is built well, and I'm not sure why I see so much hate for them, but it sounds like there might be consistency issues with them.
> 
> Anyway, just curious of everyone's thoughts.


 My Kiesel D7 is the best guitar I've ever played. The re-sale value seems to be for people who can disassociate Jeff Kiesel from the Kiesel guitar in their hands. If they want to pay more for a guitar with worse fret-work and worse paint job, that's on them.


----------



## Sir_Shreddington

Benzene said:


> My Kiesel D7 is the best guitar I've ever played. The re-sale value seems to be for people who can disassociate Jeff Kiesel from the Kiesel guitar in their hands. If they want to pay more for a guitar with worse fret-work and worse paint job, that's on them.


Yeah dude. This guitar has one of the raw finishes and it looks and feels sick, I love it. Fretwork is solid too. I think I'm just finally ready to admit that I'm not that into stainless steel frets, especially on a maple board. Nine out of ten times I'll choose nickel. It also has the trem that they offer with a bar but isn't a Floyd. It stays in tune better than I thought it would. Not a bad axe by any means!


----------



## Sir_Shreddington

John said:


> The owner of that guitar hacked off the upper horn, the part near the logo.
> Then, if memory serves, proceeded to try selling it on Reverb near the cost of a new one. It didn't flip at the cost he was asking for, either way. In the event it finally did and it wasn't just a backpedaled ad, he would've gotten rid of it at a sizeable loss.


Dude should have just trashed it and turned it into a punk guitar. Carve stuff into it. Really give it a go.


----------



## Hollowway

Sir_Shreddington said:


> Curious about what everyone thinks about the resale value of this brand when the kiesel pickups have been swapped out?
> 
> I recently had a Kiesel listed on Reverb that I ended up pulling because it wasn't getting the offers I was really looking for. I wondered if it had to do with the pickups? I got rid of the kiesel pickups because I wasn't a fan, so I replaced with bare knuckles. The guitar plays and resonates great but I wonder if I had it priced too high because of the BK I had in there. I bought a Duncan JB and 59 to replace the BK, hoping that I can price it a little lower and hopefully see more action on the listing.
> 
> I originally just wanted to try one out, so I bought it from the guitars in stock page on the website. The guitar is built well, and I'm not sure why I see so much hate for them, but it sounds like there might be consistency issues with them.
> 
> Anyway, just curious of everyone's thoughts.


Were you factoring in the price of the BKPs? Generally speaking, people will not pay extra for upgrades, unless you happen to find someone who was literally going to do that exact upgrade anyway. If you still have the stock pups (I can't tell if by "got rid of" you mean sold, or just took them out), I'd put those back in, price it lower, and then sell the BKPs separately. I don't think most people are a particular fan of Kiesel pickups, but it's more that they don't want to pay added cost, no matter what the aftermarket upgrade is. The same goes with tuners, trem blocks, knobs, control plate covers, etc. 

Also, did you post it FS here?


----------



## Sir_Shreddington

Hollowway said:


> Were you factoring in the price of the BKPs? Generally speaking, people will not pay extra for upgrades, unless you happen to find someone who was literally going to do that exact upgrade anyway. If you still have the stock pups (I can't tell if by "got rid of" you mean sold, or just took them out), I'd put those back in, price it lower, and then sell the BKPs separately. I don't think most people are a particular fan of Kiesel pickups, but it's more that they don't want to pay added cost, no matter what the aftermarket upgrade is. The same goes with tuners, trem blocks, knobs, control plate covers, etc.
> 
> Also, did you post it FS here?


I was factoring that in the price and you're right. I finally realized that. Which is why I ended up getting the JB and 59 to replace the BK so I could sell those separately. I sold the original pickups that came with that guitar, and I figured the JB and 59 are universal enough and will sound pretty kick ass in that guitar.

I haven't listed it here because I don't really meet the requirements to post in there yet. It's okay though I think there is still a big enough market for when I actually do list it again, it will sell.


----------



## mastapimp

Sir_Shreddington said:


> Yikes! What did he do to that guitar?!
> 
> Oh right, I did see those two threads before I bought from Kiesel. I also figured that buying an axe that was already made might be a quick solution to the issues. I also tried to get a spec that was pretty generalized and might appeal to more people upon resale. Ultimately I knew I was rolling the dice by 1) buying an axe before actually playing it and 2) resale may be a bit tougher because of brand recognition. Oh well, I'm sure I'll eventually get it moved.


that guitar is explained here: https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/some-guitars-are-too-funny-not-to-post.298929/post-5390661


----------



## Sir_Shreddington

mastapimp said:


> that guitar is explained here: https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/some-guitars-are-too-funny-not-to-post.298929/post-5390661


Dude I've spent too much time this morning scouring this thread!  

Running the full gamut of the emotional spectrum: laughing, crying, anger, disappointment, confusion, etc..


----------



## Themistocles

The thing with custom guitars that arent inherently luxury brands as well (Kiesel is about performance not rarity) is that their value is in the options for the initial client. At a certain point someone can just spec their owne build that has what they want so resale is never with that added premium uless it is a special build and now unobtainable for some reason that others will paya premium for. All that said Im very happy with my 2. The recent Vader 7 is a dream and the best guitar Ive ever played... it performs in the studio like a boss and is always ready. The thing with custom guitars is most dont really know what they need or require and the companies have a hard time living up to expectations. It seems like Kiesel's shop is running at a high level these days.


----------



## cardinal

MaxOfMetal said:


> Not to mention Kiesel doesn't do Floyds on 7s, because they're assholes.


----------



## Hollowway

Well, I finally swapped out the OEM FR on the used 2014 DC700 I bought last year. Thanks @spudmunkey snd @MaxOfMetal for the tips on what to get. I ordered an OFR 7 baseplate during the Black Friday sale, and swapped all the saddles, etc onto the new plate. (Somehow the previous owner completely jacked the knife edges - looked like he took a serrated knife to it, so it was clunking all around when using the trem.)

Anyway, it worked like a charm EXCEPT the screw spacing for the trem block, the block plate, and the tensioner are all different between the OEM “series 1000 original” version and the OFR. I drilled out the tensioner for the correct hole spacing, and then grabbed a trem block and plate from an OFR sixxer I’ve got for a Warmoth build. The OEM block was 34mm, and the one I had laying around is 37mm, so I can’t get the back cover on. I just ordered a new 34mm OFR block for it, so hopefully this weekend I can put it on.

Anyway, the string spacing is exactly the same. According to FR, the only difference is the hole spacing for the block. 

Anyway, if anyone is wondering, it’s a direct swap.


----------



## Jeff

Jesus, their prices have skyrocketed. W(hy)TF is a satin finish neck a $300 upcharge? That's three times as much as another company would charge for the neck finish, period.


----------



## spudmunkey

Jeff said:


> Jesus, their prices have skyrocketed. W(hy)TF is a satin finish neck a $300 upcharge? That's three times as much as another company would charge for the neck finish, period.


It slows them down, so they don't want to do it. They don't even offer it anymore on bolt-ons at all for the same reason.

As is the case with many of their decisions, their model depends on volume.


----------



## ShredmasterD

i miss the days full sized carvin catalogs would come in the mail and i could obsess and price things out for days. i was a teen so i couldn't really afford anything though. still...


----------



## Themistocles

spudmunkey said:


> It slows them down, so they don't want to do it. They don't even offer it anymore on bolt-ons at all for the same reason.
> 
> As is the case with many of their decisions, their model depends on volume.


and the quality these days really is so much better than it was. My Vasder 7 simply outclasses my DC747 for playability , options and refinement. To me the volume means they have to standardize a lot of things and frankly I prefer tung oil necks, most do. Let me reiterate the fact that they do have so many more options now than in the past and the finishes are way better too. Ill have my DC747 refinished someday I suspect. That daid it gets only 5% of the playing time at most. The other 95% is the vader. Very happy with the approach they are taking now... and they seem to have things running well.


----------



## spudmunkey

ShredmasterD said:


> i miss the days full sized carvin catalogs would come in the mail and i could obsess and price things out for days. i was a teen so i couldn't really afford anything though. still...



If you scroll down to the bottom of their home page, they just added a downloadable PDF of a "catalog" of sorts.

It's very basic, and IMO is clearly a 'first pass" attempt. It reminds me of the "Spec Guide" they had on the old "CarvinWorld.com" international website. I think this new "catalog" needs pages that explains and shows examples of some of their options. A page of headstock shapes, a page for inlays and inlay material, etc. Those were all a part of the old "Spec Guide".







Themistocles said:


> To me the volume means they have to standardize a lot of things and frankly I prefer tung oil necks, most do.



An amusing note: they used to charge extra for a tung oiled neck. In 1990, they charged $40, and that would be almost $100 with inflation. I think when it was made standard a couple years back, they were charging $50 for it. But when it was made standard, it was at the same time as a January or July $50-across-the-board price increase...so for most of the customers at that time, because tung oil necks were so popular, that price increase was basically a wash.


----------



## TK51508

Sir_Shreddington said:


> Curious about what everyone thinks about the resale value of this brand when the kiesel pickups have been swapped out?
> 
> I recently had a Kiesel listed on Reverb that I ended up pulling because it wasn't getting the offers I was really looking for. I wondered if it had to do with the pickups? I got rid of the kiesel pickups because I wasn't a fan, so I replaced with bare knuckles. The guitar plays and resonates great but I wonder if I had it priced too high because of the BK I had in there. I bought a Duncan JB and 59 to replace the BK, hoping that I can price it a little lower and hopefully see more action on the listing.
> 
> I originally just wanted to try one out, so I bought it from the guitars in stock page on the website. The guitar is built well, and I'm not sure why I see so much hate for them, but it sounds like there might be consistency issues with them.
> 
> Anyway, just curious of everyone's thoughts.


 
I have owned 7 Carvin/Kiesel guitars. I have sold 3 of them, or should I say took a bath on 3 of them. They were gorgeous, flawless guitars but on 2 of them, I lost $1000 off of what I paid. I have not had any issue with any Carvin/Kiesel I have owned. Every one of them was a great gorgeous guitar, I don't believe changing the electronics would have added any money to the resale value. I did buy one last year during the black Friday sale... a V220 spec'ed how I always wanted one, but I have gone back and looked at prices and I am soooooo happy I bought one prior to the latest price increase. I would not have pulled the trigger at the current prices. You have to believe you will keep the guitar forever because you will not get anywhere near your investment back.


----------



## Sir_Shreddington

TK51508 said:


> I have owned 7 Carvin/Kiesel guitars. I have sold 3 of them, or should I say took a bath on 3 of them. They were gorgeous, flawless guitars but on 2 of them, I lost $1000 off of what I paid. I have not had any issue with any Carvin/Kiesel I have owned. Every one of them was a great gorgeous guitar, I don't believe changing the electronics would have added any money to the resale value. I did buy one last year during the black Friday sale... a V220 spec'ed how I always wanted one, but I have gone back and looked at prices and I am soooooo happy I bought one prior to the latest price increase. I would not have pulled the trigger at the current prices. You have to believe you will keep the guitar forever because you will not get anywhere near your investment back.


I originally thought since new prices were increasing that might drive up the used market, but it doesn't really look that way. Oh well!

Whoever ends up buying it is going to get a killer guitar...and at a hefty discount lol


----------



## DoctorStoner

Sir_Shreddington said:


> I originally thought since new prices were increasing that might drive up the used market, but it doesn't really look that way. Oh well!
> 
> Whoever ends up buying it is going to get a killer guitar...and at a hefty discount lol


What do you have? Sorry if I missed where you said. I honestly have never seen used Kiesels go for higher than maybe a couple months ago, especially for base/moderate builds. The BKP's won't hold value unless you sell them on their own (to the buyer who wants that particular set). I don't think most people hold Kiesel in house pickups with high regard, but I like them a lot. 

Just have to wait for the right buyer. If you have time, Christmas money is coming soon and tax money will follow a few months after.


----------



## Sir_Shreddington

DoctorStoner said:


> What do you have? Sorry if I missed where you said. I honestly have never seen used Kiesels go for higher than maybe a couple months ago, especially for base/moderate builds. The BKP's won't hold value unless you sell them on their own (to the buyer who wants that particular set). I don't think most people hold Kiesel in house pickups with high regard, but I like them a lot.
> 
> Just have to wait for the right buyer. If you have time, Christmas money is coming soon and tax money will follow a few months after.


It's a Kiesel Aries 6. You're probably right, maybe it was just a timing issue. About the BK, I got some Duncans that I'll install in the Kiesel. They are pretty universal so I think they'll appeal to people. Then I'll be able to list the BK pickups separately.

It's a great guitar, but I think most people just want to play something first before shelling out over 1k for something. I can't blame them, I'm the same way.


----------



## dspellman

TK51508 said:


> I have owned 7 Carvin/Kiesel guitars. I have sold 3 of them, or should I say took a bath on 3 of them. They were gorgeous, flawless guitars but on 2 of them, I lost $1000 off of what I paid. I have not had any issue with any Carvin/Kiesel I have owned. Every one of them was a great gorgeous guitar, I don't believe changing the electronics would have added any money to the resale value. I did buy one last year during the black Friday sale... a V220 spec'ed how I always wanted one, but I have gone back and looked at prices and I am soooooo happy I bought one prior to the latest price increase. I would not have pulled the trigger at the current prices. You have to believe you will keep the guitar forever because you will not get anywhere near your investment back.


 This is always the gripe that Carvin/Kiesel critics have voiced. It's surprising to me that they don't understand that a largely custom-ordered guitar will have an audience of one who really appreciates the specific combination of features ordered. I have seven Carvins (no Kiesels), purchased from about 1989 through 2006. Some were used, several new. All of them (*all * of them) would sell now for well over what I originally paid for them. 

Regarding electronics: I received one 1991 guitar used from a seller who claimed it was all original. What he *meant* was that he pulled the aftermarket pickups he'd put in, and replaced them with the originals he still had lying around. Unfortunately, he had no idea how to solder and two of the three pickups had been damaged in the process. I eventually shook everything out of the guitar and replaced them with original spec. Lesson learned. I've been offered guitars that are otherwise excellent in which the original active preamp had been misunderstood and was yanked and replaced with a basic aftermarket setup. The result was a downgrade and the seller didn't understand why I felt that way. These days, it's rare that I'll even consider a guitar that's been messed with in that department.


----------



## Hollowway

dspellman said:


> This is always the gripe that Carvin/Kiesel critics have voiced. It's surprising to me that they don't understand that a largely custom-ordered guitar will have an audience of one who really appreciates the specific combination of features ordered. I have seven Carvins (no Kiesels), purchased from about 1989 through 2006. Some were used, several new. All of them (*all * of them) would sell now for well over what I originally paid for them.
> 
> Regarding electronics: I received one 1991 guitar used from a seller who claimed it was all original. What he *meant* was that he pulled the aftermarket pickups he'd put in, and replaced them with the originals he still had lying around. Unfortunately, he had no idea how to solder and two of the three pickups had been damaged in the process. I eventually shook everything out of the guitar and replaced them with original spec. Lesson learned. I've been offered guitars that are otherwise excellent in which the original active preamp had been misunderstood and was yanked and replaced with a basic aftermarket setup. The result was a downgrade and the seller didn't understand why I felt that way. These days, it's rare that I'll even consider a guitar that's been messed with in that department.


100% agree. Unless it can be verified that the modification was done by someone qualified, it makes me nervous. And even if it was down by someone qualified, 99% of the time I’m expecting to pay less for it, just because of the inherent risk.


----------



## spudmunkey

Splatter finishes have been added to the builder. It's a bit limited, as it's only solid finishes (at least for now). Also, while you can pick up to three splatter colors, if you only pick one, in the factory they will actually do more splatter of that one color so it's the same "amount" of splatter, but the builder doesn't account for that...it just shows you 1/3 of the splatter.

Also, at least for now, you can "trick" it into a different base finish by selecting a solid color, then adding your splatters, then you can switch the finish to a trans color...but if you want to change a splatter color, you have to go back to a solid base paint color. This loophole may be closed-up soon.

With great power comes great responsibility. Because while you can do this...




You can also do...



Spoiler


----------



## ExMachina

Hell yea brother


----------



## Hollowway

Proving that beauty is in the eye of the beholder (even if said beholder has zero taste) I actually LIKE that hideous green splatter thing.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> Proving that beauty is in the eye of the beholder (even if said beholder has zero taste) I actually LIKE that hideous green splatter thing.



It's the perfect guitar for the paneled basement with this couch:


----------



## spudmunkey

Multiscale trem incoming...


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> Multiscale trem incoming...
> 
> View attachment 118657


And possibly swirl finishes? What's up with that arm?


----------



## Tree

spudmunkey said:


> Multiscale trem incoming...
> 
> View attachment 118657


Finally!


----------



## spudmunkey

I wonder if it'll be in just 7-string. 6-string multiscale doesn't seem super popular, and 8-strings are already so niche, that they might never recoup tooling costs on that bridge plate.

...and if I had to guess, right handed only.


----------



## NoodleFace

but still no floyds on 7s


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> I wonder if it'll be in just 7-string. 6-string multiscale doesn't seem super popular, and 8-strings are already so niche, that they might never recoup tooling costs on that bridge plate.
> 
> ...and if I had to guess, right handed only.


I both hope they do an 8, and simultaneously hope they do not. I’d love one, but reeeeallly don’t need to be buying a new guitar.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> I wonder if it'll be in just 7-string. 6-string multiscale doesn't seem super popular, and 8-strings are already so niche, that they might never recoup tooling costs on that bridge plate.
> 
> ...and if I had to guess, right handed only.



Does this make them un-returnable too?


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> Does this make them un-returnable too?


I could see it going both ways...by having it not returnable, that would discourage sales...and I'm sure Hipshot wants to recoup their design/tooling expenses as soon as possible. But, they also don't want a bunch of impulse buys coming back. 

I kinda wish they did the "restocking fee" type thing where a customer would retain the 10-day, and they could sell it at a steeper discount because they've already "made" that money. There would still be non-returnable things like goofy color combos and such, but...if someone knew they could roll the dice on, say, a buckeye top, if they didn't like it, they did only be out a chunk of change, and don't have to deal with Reverb, Ebay, etc, and potentially a steeper loss.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> But, they also don't want a bunch of impulse buys coming back.



What's the prevalence of this?


----------



## RadoncROCKs

I guess Kiesel couldn't be outdone by the EBMM Kaizen


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Don't get me wrong, the more trem options the better, but like, give us Floyds back godammit.


----------



## spudmunkey

RadoncROCKs said:


> I guess Kiesel couldn't be outdone by the EBMM Kaizen


There are interesting differences to how the trems are designed.

The Kaizen's pivot posts are "parallel", meaning parallel to the neutral fret, just like they would be on a non-multiscale. Kiesel's are angled.

Kaizen pro:
On the Kaizen, the strings will be pulled only up and down with diving and pulling back, respectively.

Kiesel con:
On the Kiesel, they will move sideways a little. It looks like Kiesel may have tried to mitigate this slightly by having the trem slightly less angled than it would be if the posts were roughly parallel with the saddles. Though that could have been driven by Hipshot, who likely wants their trem to eventually be used on as many instruments as possible and perhaps chose an angle that works with a broader range of popular multiscale geometries. I believe that side to side movement, though, is also proportionally smaller than the amount the string moves up and down.


Kiesel pro:
With the saddles of the lower strings being closer to the bass-side pivot than the Kaizen's are from theirs, the _ amount_ that the string will move up and down is reduced quite a bit. In theory, this would reduce the risk of fretting out when pulling back, and the feel of both the trem movement-to-pitch change, and the amount of "pull" felt by a fretting hand will be more similar to a traditional "parallel" trem.

Kaizen con:
Because the saddles are so far away from the bass side pivot point, a subtle movement will generate a wider pitch range on the lower strings than what one may be used to. Also, pulling back is more likely to cause the strings to lower, and choke out on higher frets...or possibly even the body of the trem (though owners will need to confirm if that happens if you pull way back...impossible to know without having one in my hand). And lastly, if you are playing at the highest frets, IN MY HEAD, it seems like if the strings are pulled up while you're holding a fretted note down, that could be more uncomfortable...but I admit that this point is PURELY speculation, and only a hypothesis that I would need to test for myself, and even of it can be felt, may not be much of an issue for other players.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> What's the prevalence of this?


Probably pretty low, because if their actions spawned by the fear of it.  I do remember at one point, though I dont remember what model it was, they made a pretty public announcement and marketing around the upcoming retirement of a model, and there were an abovezaverage number of people who ordered them, and then canceled returned...so months after the model was discontinued, they ended up with a handful of in-stocks.

Perhaps for new options, they could temper it by having just a short non-return window for a new option, like 90 days, or something. Perhaps after a cooling off period, the likelihood of impulse buys is reduced, and the people who would have taken the plunge with no returns _at all_ still would have. Though...perhaps some of those people might wait, and a delayed order is technically a potential lost sale ("a bird in the hand", and all that...").


----------



## spudmunkey

6, 7 and 8 string
Headless only
Right hand only
Currently $100, may go up after the end of the year.

Right now, it's just these models:
Vaser
Osiris
Zeus
HK
Type X
Lightspeed

Oh, and swirl paint jobs. A limited run, though. Online at 11am.

6 color combos availble

$600, and $100 for a matching headstock

Bolt-ons only


----------



## Agalloch

Give swirl now, please.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

I like the purple one with the blue, as well as the purple pink and black. But I don’t think I will go for it.


----------



## spudmunkey

The middle blue of the blue swirl will also be a new color option for 2023, Sky Blue.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

You know, $600 for a swirl ain't bad, but some of those are pretty "eh." 

Most look really good though.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

dammit now i want a swirled zeus.


----------



## NoodleFace

MaxOfMetal said:


> Don't get me wrong, the more trem options the better, but like, give us Floyds back godammit.


Me and you will die on this hill lol. At least I have two of them with Floyd's I guess.


----------



## jco5055

NoodleFace said:


> Me and you will die on this hill lol. At least I have two of them with Floyd's I guess.


Yeah I think for me, for whatever reason pretty much every bridge not named Sophia (and even that is debatable) that is a trem option for headless and multiscale just isn’t as good as a a Floyd/gotoh and the like


----------



## Alberto7

I wonder what the wear on the pivot points of these trems would be like. Angled trems have always struck me as being prone to a lot of wear on the pivot point closer to the trem bar, more than trems with 'parallel' pivot points. I feel like there's a lot of eccentric forces applied to the knife edges due to the relationship between the angle of the fan and the angle at which the player pushes up/down on the trem bar.

Just some gut feelings I've had about these trems, but I've never actually calculated anything or read up much on it.


----------



## Themistocles

NoodleFace said:


> but still no fl





NoodleFace said:


> Me and you will die on this hill lol. At least I have two of them with Floyd's I guess.


Im pretty anti floyd and prefer the kiesel headless trem... I see this focus on hipshot as a positive but I get it. We like what we like, it comes with the territory of musicians developing techniques a certain way. Love the hipshot and headless so this is an exciting option for me... now if only I knew I liked multiscale. Ive got a whole album to mix before I even try to see if I like them. I find 26.5 7 strings to be eh, ok... prefer 25.5


----------



## Albake21

Fucking called that swirl reveal with that arm tease! Kiesel seems to keep bringing back 80s stuff, and I'm all for it.


----------



## NoodleFace

Themistocles said:


> Im pretty anti floyd and prefer the kiesel headless trem... I see this focus on hipshot as a positive but I get it. We like what we like, it comes with the territory of musicians developing techniques a certain way. Love the hipshot and headless so this is an exciting option for me... now if only I knew I liked multiscale. Ive got a whole album to mix before I even try to see if I like them. I find 26.5 7 strings to be eh, ok... prefer 25.5


Yeah that's fine. I just want the option. I want to order another kiesel but I can't do it if there's no Floyd - and as an opposite I HATE headless guitars


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Themistocles said:


> Im pretty anti floyd and prefer the kiesel headless trem... I see this focus on hipshot as a positive but I get it. We like what we like, it comes with the territory of musicians developing techniques a certain way. Love the hipshot and headless so this is an exciting option for me... now if only I knew I liked multiscale. Ive got a whole album to mix before I even try to see if I like them. I find 26.5 7 strings to be eh, ok... prefer 25.5



If "no Floyds" was some sort of company ethos it'd be one thing, but they still offer them on 6-strings, so it's not like they don't already have a relationship with FR. They have the programs.


----------



## Blynd

I t


NoodleFace said:


> Yeah that's fine. I just want the option. I want to order another kiesel but I can't do it if there's no Floyd - and as an opposite I HATE headless guitars


I thought you could still get the Floyd on some models but as a call-in upcharge option. They just weren’t offering it as a selectable option. I may be incorrect but I feel like people have asked within the past year or two.


----------



## Hollowway

I wish someone would design a multiscale floating trem that had parallel pivot points but also saddles that rotated upon roughly similar axes. It’s completely doable, but would take more work than just tweaking traditional designs, and I suspect there’s not enough money in it.


----------



## NoodleFace

Blynd said:


> I t
> 
> I thought you could still get the Floyd on some models but as a call-in upcharge option. They just weren’t offering it as a selectable option. I may be incorrect but I feel like people have asked within the past year or two.


Nah they won't offer them at all on 7s


----------



## Hollowway

What do they do with the prototypes? I just looked at the in stock section of the website and was surprised to not see them there. Did they sell them all prior to launch?


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> What do they do with the prototypes? I just looked at the in stock section of the website and was surprised to not see them there. Did they sell them all prior to launch?


They ones they showed at launch, Jeff said they weren't for sale, as he has other plans for them. I assume gifts for artists and/or industry friends. He mentioned he did a lot of experimenting, like 100 bodies. I know the very first one was sold to a customer with over 100 other Kiesels. No idea what happened to those done between that one and these though...it sounds like there was quite a bit of failure before they got a repeatable process/colors right.

This was that very first one:


----------



## Hollowway

I think the experimentation and prototyping of stuff at Kiesel would be super fun. The actual making of them might get monotonous, but the creativity in new designs would be a blast!


----------



## RevelGTR

N


spudmunkey said:


> They ones they showed at launch, Jeff said they weren't for sale, as he has other plans for them. I assume gifts for artists and/or industry friends. He mentioned he did a lot of experimenting, like 100 bodies. I know the very first one was sold to a customer with over 100 other Kiesels. No idea what happened to those done between that one and these though...it sounds like there was quite a bit of failure before they got a repeatable process/colors right.
> 
> This was that very first one:
> View attachment 118721


Not gonna lie other than a few goofy spots this looks better than some of the final ones.


----------



## CanserDYI

Kiesel has some awesome headless shapes, my issue is with the lopped off headstock. There is no fancy hand carve or top piece or anything, it just literally looks like someone put a Floyd locking nut on the end and just hacked off the headstock. Am I the only one that really finds the look jarring? Not headless guitars, but _Kiesel _headless, how its just flat cut off at the end.


----------



## Church2224

So it's been a while since I looked into Kiesel but I am really tempted to put a deposit on an Aries 9 string as something to experiment with. Nothing too fancy just one with a maple board and in Kiesel racing green, alder body, scene piece neck for stability. 

Would it be worth it? My only question is they are non refundable and I want to make sure I am getting a good instrument.

Thanks Everyone


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Church2224 said:


> So it's been a while since I looked into Kiesel but I am really tempted to put a deposit on an Aries 9 string as something to experiment with. Nothing too fancy just one with a maple board and in Kiesel racing green, alder body, scene piece neck for stability.
> 
> Would it be worth it? My only question is they are non refundable and I want to make sure I am getting a good instrument.
> 
> Thanks Everyone



I'd never get something that wasn't eligible for a hassle free return from Kiesel, too many horror stories and dealing with the man himself is just...yuck. 

But, chances of something going wrong are very very very VERY minimal these days, and they generally make nice guitars. 

You could do much worse.


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## NoodleFace

I vote for kiesel racing green, such a great color


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## iamaom

NoodleFace said:


> I vote for kiesel racing green, such a great color


I'd buy a guitar today if they'd offer a medium green color instead of so green it's almost black and neon.


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## CanserDYI

Church2224 said:


> So it's been a while since I looked into Kiesel but I am really tempted to put a deposit on an Aries 9 string as something to experiment with. Nothing too fancy just one with a maple board and in Kiesel racing green, alder body, scene piece neck for stability.
> 
> Would it be worth it? My only question is they are non refundable and I want to make sure I am getting a good instrument.
> 
> Thanks Everyone


Wait Jeff doesn't refund any 9 string orders? Ouch, man.


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## Church2224

Yeah that's what it said on the site.

My go to custom shops are Schecter USA, ESP USA And and Suhr. But non offer a 9 string option and most 9 strings I see are on the "cheaper" side of things. I don't want a Decked out one from Kiesel to keep them from not messing too much.

Any other Input would be appreciated. @MaxOfMetal had what I was expecting.


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## spudmunkey

One thing to ask: are their 9-string specs what you are looking for? The straight 29" scale seems to be fairly divisive. I dont even own a 7 or 8, so I can't give an opinion on it, itxs just what I've read from comments.


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## Church2224

I can deal with the 29 inch scale. I want a 9 to experiment with but want something at least decently built


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## Alberto7

CanserDYI said:


> Kiesel has some awesome headless shapes, my issue is with the lopped off headstock. There is no fancy hand carve or top piece or anything, it just literally looks like someone put a Floyd locking nut on the end and just hacked off the headstock. Am I the only one that really finds the look jarring? Not headless guitars, but _Kiesel _headless, how its just flat cut off at the end.



Yeah, I agree. I think it's the main reason every time I start playing with headless guitars on the builder I quickly get turned off. It's not even designed, it's just sawed off and capped. Some people like that for its utilitarianism, but I like something a bit more aesthetically pleasing. I still have to find a nicer "non-headstock" design than Strandberg's funky wavy line. I also don't fully like Kiesel's headless shapes (save for the Holdsworth and maybe the Zeus), but that's a different topic...


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## lurè

Alberto7 said:


> Yeah, I agree. I think it's the main reason every time I start playing with headless guitars on the builder I quickly get turned off. It's not even designed, it's just sawed off and capped. Some people like that for its utilitarianism, but I like something a bit more aesthetically pleasing. I still have to find a nicer "non-headstock" design than Strandberg's funky wavy line. I also don't fully like Kiesel's headless shapes (save for the Holdsworth and maybe the Zeus), but that's a different topic...


The sawed off headstock is the reason I like kesel headless design. I'm not a fan of excess wood past the nut on an headless.


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## Alberto7

lurè said:


> The sawed off headstock is the reason I like kesel headless design. I'm not a fan of excess wood past the nut on an headless.



Yeah, I get that point. Headless should be headless. I just like my little bit of flair for nothing but aesthetic reasons. Some designs do take it a bit far though, where they might as well have a headstock. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but they're out there, mostly smaller boutique builders.


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## CanserDYI

I personally like them with a little bit of a chin on the end, I've never done it personally, but I have a friend hang their Legator Ghost's this way and thats pretty much impossible with Kiesel's design. I also play without looking quite often and use the extra chin of the neck end to find my way and "stop" my hand from coming off, which also looks pretty impossible with Kiesels design.

Just my personal taste, I can see why people do like the design as well.


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## Church2224

This is what I am looking to build -


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## Toejam

iamaom said:


> I'd buy a guitar today if they'd offer a medium green color instead of so green it's almost black and neon.


They'll paint a guitar pretty much any color you want, you just have to show them a picture or give them a paint color code. They've been doing that for well over 10 years now.


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## spudmunkey

Toejam said:


> They'll paint a guitar pretty much any color you want, you just have to show them a picture or give them a paint color code. They've been doing that for well over 10 years now.


True, but it's also an additional $300 for a solid color (might even be higher now) plus at least $100 more for metallic paints. I believe a custom colorshift is like $1200 (and it may even be above the standard color shift price).


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## spudmunkey

Floyds will be available on the 24-fret 6-string Delos starting Monday. Right and left-handed.

Satin black pickguard are also sticking around for at least a little while longer.

Price increase coming, maybe not all models but possibly. Floyd option is going up. 

They now use Bourns pots on all of their passive setups. Sounds like some custom-spec'd, specially-ordered pots.

Here was a prototype of the multiscale headless trem with straight pivot posts. In today's live, he actually demonstrated exactly why they didn't go with it in regards to the string height under use.


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## Toejam

spudmunkey said:


> True, but it's also an additional $300 for a solid color (might even be higher now) plus at least $100 more for metallic paints. I believe a custom colorshift is like $1200 (and it may even be above the standard color shift price).


Good point. A lot more expensive these days, but they'll still do pretty much any color.


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## Alberto7

spudmunkey said:


> Floyds will be available on the 24-fret 6-string Delos starting Monday. Right and left-handed.
> 
> Satin black pickguard are also sticking around for at least a little while longer.
> 
> Price increase coming, maybe not all models but possibly. Floyd option is going up.
> 
> They now use Bourns pots on all of their passive setups. Sounds like some custom-spec'd, specially-ordered pots.
> 
> Here was a prototype of the multiscale headless trem with straight pivot posts. In today's live, he actually demonstrated exactly why they didn't go with it in regards to the string height under use.
> 
> View attachment 118900



Oh interesting. I can't watch the video at the moment, but is it something along the lines of the pivot point being farther away from the saddle means that the "lifting" action on lower string saddles is higher than on the higher strings, (when pushing down on thr bar) thus decreasing pitch a lot more unevenly? And vicecersa for pulling the arm up to increase pitch, which means that lower strings could choke out before the high strings.

If so, that answers the question I've had for a while regarding the angle between the pivot points on multiscale trems.


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## spudmunkey

Alberto7 said:


> Oh interesting. I can't watch the video at the moment, but is it something along the lines of the pivot point being farther away from the saddle means that the "lifting" action on lower string saddles is higher than on the higher strings, (when pushing down on thr bar) thus decreasing pitch a lot more unevenly? And vicecersa for pulling the arm up to increase pitch, which means that lower strings could choke out before the high strings.
> 
> If so, that answers the question I've had for a while regarding the angle between the pivot points on multiscale trems.


The issue he showed was more about string hight, now pulling back causes the strings to basically fret-out (maybe even on the edge of the bridge itself) and diving cause the strings to rise way way up, and come out of the saddles (which I know isn't super uncommon on non-locking trems, but seems exaggerated on this prototype due to how far back the saddle is from the pivot. 

The prototype bridge segment starts at 6:03, and at about 6:33 you can hear the strings rattle.


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## Alberto7

spudmunkey said:


> The issue he showed was more about string hight, now pulling back causes the strings to basically fret-out (maybe even on the edge of the bridge itself) and diving cause the strings to rise way way up, and come out of the saddles (which I know isn't super uncommon on non-locking trems, but seems exaggerated on this prototype due to how far back the saddle is from the pivot.
> 
> The prototype bridge segment starts at 6:03, and at about 6:33 you can hear the strings rattle.




Ok yeah, that makes sense. It's along the lines of what I thought also. Thanks for the timestamps also! I'll check them later when I get a chance.


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