# Engl vs VHT/Fryette



## Shannon (Sep 10, 2011)

So I am thinking of venturing into midi rackmount tube territory. I put my engl invader up for sale to see what type of responses i got. A VHT/Fryette 2902 poweramp was one of the items i have been looking for and a guy offered that, plus the rare VHT GP3 tube preamp. I am intrigued because VHT is top quality, but i havent had much time with them. The GP3 is suppose to be the preamp of a Pittbull UL and CLX in one. How does these amps sound in comparison to my beloved Engls?


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## pathos45 (Sep 10, 2011)

from what i heard the gp3 needs some sort of gain mod or something like that to get it to the exact specs as the UL but i could be wrong. Other than that there is a big diffrence in engls tone and a vht tone, vht is gonna be very very dry and tight, some people dont like this but i found wiht my old pitbull cl if i ran the gain just below half and then boost it with a maxon or a zw od ( had both liked the mid hump on the zw) but after i boosted it it sounded like a beast! Not going to lie if i were you id pull the trigger just cuz you can probally get more money if you dont end up liking the vht for more money than you can get for the invader usually. Power amp could go for 1000 and the gp3 is very rare so you could get some guys in a bidding war lol.


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## VESmedic (Sep 10, 2011)

IMO (read, IN MY OPINION)


Fryette/VHT make the absolute best amps in the world for what the tone they are going for. The building construction is the best, their customer service is better than EVERYONE PERIOD, and the sounds.....   

Down at our studio we have my UL, My D120, my other guitarists 50st, and a boogie mark IV head...The boogie sounds like a complete toy compared to any of the VHT heads. The VHT's are the absolute biggest sounding, most aggressive, most uncompressed and girthiest sounding amps I have ever heard. I swear by them ,and I have owned EVERYTHING.

The Engls, while great, sound extremely "processed" and...I dunno...." pretty" sounding. Almost like you are listening to the album (IE: Diezel amps). The VHT's in contrast are extremely organic, raw, and very in your face. They will destroy anything live, absolute best amps I've ever used for playing live. My D120 with Deliverance cab sounds like the notes are 10 feet wide. 

The Engls, in my experience, do not cut through very well. The blackmore sounds GREAT on its own, but all of its bass disappears in the mix, and has this very harsh mid/high end in my experience. I used a 5150 with an ENGL savage 120 live for awhile, and I was completely destroyed by my other guitar players markIV. 

I thought maybe it was just me, until I saw Dimmu Borgir live. Again, there guitar tone sounded INSANE by itself during sound check. However, with the full mix, they were completely lost. This has been my experience with almost every Engl I've heard live. maybe with one guitar player it would be different. 

Again, this is just my REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE. Not things I have heard, or heard other people say, or read about blah blah blah. Real life experience. To me, VHT/Fryette is the top, and I will probably never use anything else ever again.


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## Dvaienat (Sep 10, 2011)

VHT, just like Engl is a high-end boutique amp company. They have a very rich and complex tone. Very dry, ultra-tight and balanced in tone. Their main difference to Engl is that they are organic and warm, yet still offer the surgically precise and defined metal tone that Engls offer. They don't 'quack' like Engls do either. Neither is better, just both companies offer different tone.

The previous poster also noted that Engls can't cut through... this is certainly not true of any Engls apart from the Powerball and Fireball.


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## VESmedic (Sep 10, 2011)

NatG said:


> VHT, just like Engl is a high-end boutique amp company. They have a very rich and complex tone. Very dry, ultra-tight and balanced in tone. Their main difference to Engl is that they are organic and warm, yet still offer the surgically precise and defined metal tone that Engls offer. They don't 'quack' like Engls do either. Neither is better, just both companies offer different tone.
> 
> The previous poster also noted that Engls can't cut through... this is certainly not true of any Engls apart from the Powerball and Fireball.


 

Again...I said MULTIPLE MULTIPLE MULTIPLE TIMES....IN MY EXPERIENCE...

And again, I have never heard an Engl live that sounded utterly over the top, and cut through wonderfully with a full band and another guitar player. I also stated that I have owned a savage 120, that to me, suffered from the same issue.....


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## JJ Rodriguez (Sep 10, 2011)

pathos45 said:


> from what i heard the gp3 needs some sort of gain mod or something like that to get it to the exact specs as the UL but i could be wrong.



Not really true. It might have SLIGHTLY less gain than a UL, but I've never had to turn a UL past half on the gain knob anyways for rhythm. Bump it up a little past half for the lead channel.

The gain mod adds a bit of saturation. A lot of people think VHTs are low gain amps because they don't have the typical saturation that a lot of high gain amps have.


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## Larrikin666 (Sep 10, 2011)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> Not really true. It might have SLIGHTLY less gain than a UL, but I've never had to turn a UL past half on the gain knob anyways for rhythm. Bump it up a little past half for the lead channel.
> 
> The gain mod adds a bit of saturation. A lot of people think VHTs are low gain amps because they don't have the typical saturation that a lot of high gain amps have.



Yup. It's an interested gain structure. Their amps are not designed to accommodate sloppy playing. They're insanely tight and clear, so if you make a mistake, everything is going to hear it. I wouldn't mind having a bit more saturation with one, but I eventually got used to the crystal clear gain in the two I owned.


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## Dvaienat (Sep 10, 2011)

VESmedic said:


> Again...I said MULTIPLE MULTIPLE MULTIPLE TIMES....IN MY EXPERIENCE...
> 
> And again, I have never heard an Engl live that sounded utterly over the top, and cut through wonderfully with a full band and another guitar player. I also stated that I have owned a savage 120, that to me, suffered from the same issue.....


 
 You found the Savage suffered from that? The Savage has huge roaring mids, so cutting through shouldn't be a problem.


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## wlfers (Sep 10, 2011)

I've A/B'd a Ultra-Lead against a Engl E570 preamp/VHT 2/90/2 combo. And to be honest, they were not worlds apart. Of course they were both using essentially the same power section and it may be just that I eq everything the same way =D.

I would put both of them as articulate and bite-y amps with the VHT sounding more dry and having a different pick/attack response. The Engl has alot more saturation on tap, but for my rhythm sound my gain never gets above 9 or 10 oclock anyway. 

I absolutely love the graphic eq on the VHTs though. It makes me wish the Engl had a graphic eq and the Edge switch (which boosts the gain on higher frequency notes).


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## wlfers (Sep 10, 2011)

NatG said:


> You found the Savage suffered from that? The Savage has huge roaring mids, so cutting through shouldn't be a problem.



My thoughts exactly. I would say the Engl has a much more diverse line up of amps than VHT, so lumping them all into a single sound is a bit of a generalization. My favorite Engls are easily the savage and se.


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## murakami (Sep 10, 2011)

NatG said:


> VHT, just like Engl is a high-end boutique amp company. They have a very rich and complex tone. Very dry, ultra-tight and balanced in tone. Their main difference to Engl is that they are organic and warm, yet still offer the surgically precise and defined metal tone that Engls offer. They don't 'quack' like Engls do either. Neither is better, just both companies offer different tone.
> 
> The previous poster also noted that Engls can't cut through... this is certainly not true of any Engls apart from the Powerball and Fireball.


 
i hope this doesn't come off as negative towards your input, but when people say "dry" doesn't that go with an amp that sounds more digital?
i've had people call the powerball II sound super dry and really compressed. always when they make those statements, they go on by saying the amp itself sounds solid state or digital. whats your take on it???

personally i think the powerball II sounds awesome.


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## wlfers (Sep 11, 2011)

I'm pretty sure by dry he means "not saturated (wet)", I'm trying to think of a better way to explain it.. someone help .

And not wet/dry as in effects. When I think of a dry tone, bodom's live tone comes to mind.


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## Wookieslayer (Sep 11, 2011)

I would call Veil of Maya's Id a dry tone and Necrophagist or Suffocation for example saturated; also last Dying Fetus album had a Savage... Granted these bands use different amounts of gain...

Edit: i would call the tone of my Randall Titan very raw and dry as well... plenty of gain, but not* super saturated, just roars at you with angry mids


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## Hellbound (Sep 11, 2011)

I play an Engl Fireball 100 with a Fryette 4x12 fat bottom cab and during the very few live gigs I have done...it has always been hard to get our sound so that I am not cutting through too much. Even just jamming I always have to turn down some of my gain and volume...this particular combo is a very much in your face distortion. I'm almost reminded of a Mesa Dual Rec just to me more ballsier and articulate. Also playing a Loomis with SD Blackouts oh yes this is an amp that is very much alive. 
I still want to get my hands on a Fryette Pitbull...for now it is not needed and my Engl Fireball 100 has me covered. 
Yes I am an Engl fanboy however I am only a fan of the Fireball head the others to me sound processed and fizzy. I can't remember the name of the Engl (it's the very expensive one the Invader or Savage perhaps?) but I would like to try that one out...not sure which Engl Dimmu Borgir uses I used to know and I'm sure a quick search will answer that but have heard them live and even though it was highly enjoyable...I hate to say the guitars sounded like noise just not really cutting through the mix...maybe they should try the Fireball 100,lol.


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## MetalDaze (Sep 11, 2011)

Shannon: The 2/90/2 is a keeper....no doubt. I own one and I've never heard anyone say a bad thing about them. The KT88's sound huge and the thing is a work horse.

Now the GP3 is more of a mystery. I've never played through one and as much as I want to believe they are awesome, there's a lot more evidence out there that it's not that great. Many people report that it does not sound like an Ultra Lead or CL out of the box.

I've also read about the gain issues, overheating issues, and the fact that they dropped the product all together doesn't bode well. It's also been referred to as a 'tweaker', which I personally don't like. I think that good amps should sound good regardless of the settings. 

I do know that ENGL preamps work well with the 2/90/2. If you don't care about MIDI, the e530 is a great option (I'm currently using that). I know others prefer the e570.

Hope that helps. Maybe you just need to buy one of those rack cases that can fit an Ultra Lead head


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## onefingersweep (Sep 11, 2011)

Fryette and ENGL aren't even in the same ballpark IMO. Sure they are expensive amps that offers high gain sounds but thats where the similarities end.


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## robotsatemygma (Sep 11, 2011)

NatG said:


> VHT, just like Engl is a high-end boutique amp company. They have a very rich and complex tone. Very dry, ultra-tight and balanced in tone. Their main difference to Engl is that they are organic and warm, yet still offer the surgically precise and defined metal tone that Engls offer. They don't 'quack' like Engls do either. Neither is better, just both companies offer different tone.
> 
> The previous poster also noted that Engls can't cut through... this is certainly not true of any Engls apart from the Powerball and Fireball.



Actually I personally have heard Powerballs not being able to cut through a mix. The dude using it was using a 7 string with an ISP sub with a Marshall 1960 (set up just like Stephen Carpenter) We talked for awhile as we were both playing Engl and he was jealous my lil 50w Thunder was cutting through.  He tried everything he could think of but no luck. 

I also read it multiple times a few years back. IIRC that was the problem with only the series 1 Powerball. The series 2 is a montster. 

As for the OP's Engl/Fryette VHT conundrum... I'd go try some Fryette's out ASAP and make sure you personally like the tone. Like everyone has said so far... both are good amps and both have a signature tone.


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## robotsatemygma (Sep 11, 2011)

Wookieslayer said:


> I would call Veil of Maya's Id a dry tone and Necrophagist or Suffocation for example saturated; also last Dying Fetus album had a Savage... Granted these bands use different amounts of gain...
> 
> Edit: i would call the tone of my Randall Titan very raw and dry as well... plenty of gain, but super saturated,* just roars at you with angry mids*



Kind of like an Angry Wookie about to be killed?


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## VESmedic (Sep 11, 2011)

onefingersweep said:


> Fryette and ENGL aren't even in the same ballpark IMO. Sure they are expensive amps that offers high gain sounds but thats where the similarities end.


 

I agree completely. I believe if you think they are similiar you aren't very good at hearing the differences in guitar amps, but thats just my opinion.. They sound absolutely nothing alike. They take up completely different frequencies in my opinion.

Like I said, I personally will never use another amp. I feel privledged to own the absolute best amp ever made FOR ME, and MY style, and what I like in guitar tone. What you will find about VHT/Fryette, is that if you love them, you REALLY love them ( As you've noticed about me ) and those that don't, don't.. If you are a good clean player, and love a tight feel and the clearest high gain possible, you will probably fall in Love with VHT. To me, the Engls are not natural sounding at all, sound processed, and slightly solid state. Sure they are over the top brutal, have alot of gain, tight etc, but thats about it. They just don't do it for me, thats all...The savage is one of those amps I just WANT to love and be able to use, but it's just not for me...


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## Dvaienat (Sep 11, 2011)

murakami said:


> i hope this doesn't come off as negative towards your input, but when people say "dry" doesn't that go with an amp that sounds more digital?
> i've had people call the powerball II sound super dry and really compressed. always when they make those statements, they go on by saying the amp itself sounds solid state or digital. whats your take on it???
> 
> personally i think the powerball II sounds awesome.


 
I don't think there's any correlation between dryness and compression. For example the Powerball is extremely compressed but very wet. Whereas an amp like a Marshall 2203 is dry, but organic. Same goes for VHT/Fryette.


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## Wookieslayer (Sep 11, 2011)

I would expand on that and say that an amp's dryness or wetness is the voice or frequencies being put out. When I was trying out the Titan before buying, I was a/bing it against the Peavey XXL. I was hesitant with the Titan because I was worried about a lack of gain compared to the XXL when in fact it was just the amps raw voice giving the perception of lower gain. It wasn't until I took the amp into the sound room and cranked the volume to 4 thru a Mesa 2x12 where the dryness was filled out and all the tonestacks frequencies could be heard. Not only did the pinch harmonics scream with gain but the amp sounded fricken raw and mean with clear pick attack. Something I never heard a SS amp do before. 

To relate I could see how a VHT amp's dryness would not work for some gain freaks. Theyre just not used to having that rawness without that saturated wetness across the eq spectrum. The gain is still there but the perceived distortion is less... which is why I really want to try out a Deliverance. 

Please take this with a grain of salt because this is all my own assumption on the technical explanation of distortion or gain dryness...  Also I have to kill some time somehow on the ride back from Vegas 

Shannon, knowing that you're an extremely clean player, you can get away with any amp you want. People could describe these amps all day, but like when you were comparing the invader to diezels, bogners, etc. you had to try them in person to make a decision. I would guess the Engl preamps with VHT or Engl power amps woud kill for simplicity and variety of tones, whereas the GP3 may be more for tweaking.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Sep 11, 2011)

The way I look at dry/wet for gain structure, is think about a Mark IV. Now take the exact opposite of that saturated, liquidy character you get on the lead channel, and that's pretty much the VHT/Fryette sound. It's super organic, and dynamic. Not compressed at all. You could go from balls out death metal rhythm tone to a slightly crunchy clean tone just by changing your pick attack. It's not forgiving at all like someone said.

As for the GP3 overheating, I will attest that you REQUIRE an empty rack space above it for cooling. I built a rack fan panel in the back to draw air across it, but I moved back to an 8u rack with an empty space above the GP3 and I don't really need the panel anymore. I keep it there though because I have red LED fans in the back and it looks fucking evil  Before in the 6u rack, it literally got hot enough that it was uncomfortable to turn the knobs, since the knobs are metal, and so are the pots. It didn't shit the bed though, but you will require either some form of cooling, or a space above it. The weird thing is is that the 2/90/2 doesn't get hot at all. You figure it would be the power amp cooking in the rack


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## wlfers (Sep 11, 2011)

robotsatemygma said:


> Actually I personally have heard Powerballs not being able to cut through a mix. The dude using it was using a 7 string with an ISP sub with a Marshall 1960 (set up just like Stephen Carpenter) We talked for awhile as we were both playing Engl and he was jealous my lil 50w Thunder was cutting through.  He tried everything he could think of but no luck.



He wasn't saying otherwise, what he said was:



NatG said:


> The previous poster also noted that Engls can't cut through... this is certainly not true of any Engls apart from the Powerball and Fireball.



I agree with him, Engls cut pretty well aside from what I've heard of the first xxballs.



VESmedic said:


> I agree completely. I believe if you think they are similiar you aren't very good at hearing the differences in guitar amps, but thats just my opinion.. They sound absolutely nothing alike. They take up completely different frequencies in my opinion.
> 
> Like I said, I personally will never use another amp. I feel privledged to own the absolute best amp ever made FOR ME, and MY style, and what I like in guitar tone. What you will find about VHT/Fryette, is that if you love them, you REALLY love them ( As you've noticed about me ) and those that don't, don't.. If you are a good clean player, and love a tight feel and the clearest high gain possible, you will probably fall in Love with VHT. To me, the Engls are not natural sounding at all, sound processed, and slightly solid state. Sure they are over the top brutal, have alot of gain, tight etc, but thats about it. They just don't do it for me, thats all...The savage is one of those amps I just WANT to love and be able to use, but it's just not for me...



Who said Engls and VHTs sound exactly the same? All I said was that the UL and my 570+2/90/2 setup were not worlds apart. My favorite power sections are KT88s, so throwing it behind a special edition preamp makes for possibly my favorite sound. The 88s/6550s is also a big reason why I like the Savage sound so much. Since you've tried so many amps I'd expect you to know that Engls are known to ship with stone cold power sections which could contribute to the bulk of your complaints. Did you try tweaking anything to benefit?

As I also said, Engl has a larger and more diverse line of amps than VHT does, so generalizing all of them saying they're a lifeless line of amps makes a pretty misinformed statement.


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## wlfers (Sep 11, 2011)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> The weird thing is is that the 2/90/2 doesn't get hot at all. You figure it would be the power amp cooking in the rack



I love turning on the 2/90/2 with the fans on hi. Sounds like a fuckin airplane taking off


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## JJ Rodriguez (Sep 11, 2011)

Mine is an older one, weighs 15 lbs more than the newer ones, and the fan isn't adjustable  Never touched a newer one, not sure if my fan is louder or quieter. I don't think it's as loud as my fan panel in the back though, which isn't that loud.


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## TMM (Sep 11, 2011)

onefingersweep said:


> Fryette and ENGL aren't even in the same ballpark IMO. Sure they are expensive amps that offers high gain sounds but thats where the similarities end.



That's sort of a blanket statement... there are ENGLs that don't sound like the VHT, but the SE is definitely very similar, tonally. Not at all in responsiveness or the way it saturates, but the tone is very similar. I say this having owned and tracked with 3 E570s (the SE pre) and my VHT GP3 (current). They 'feel' different to play, but the tracked tone is very similar.


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## VESmedic (Sep 11, 2011)

athawulf said:


> He wasn't saying otherwise, what he said was:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

I said ON ....MULTIPLE...OCCASIONS..

IN My REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE. No one is going to change my opinion on that. Who are you trying to convince? Yourself or me? Cold Power section or not, that is definitely not the problem. The 5150 is "stone cold" as you say as well, and would cut through like a knife over any Engl I have ever heard or owned. 


Tweaking anything to benefit? Why would I waste my time for days and weeks and multiple shows and practices to get something to work that just doesn't for me? I have never once plugged into something that I didn't like, and then come to find out months down the road that the piece of equipment was gods gift to me for amplification...It just isn't happening. I usually know what WORKS FOR ME ( ME ME ME) fairly quickly. It's like people that spend time trying to appreciate and like music that they obviously don't like...spend your time listening to the music you DO LIKE!

Also, where do you get the more diverse line of amps idea? Fryette has the UL, THe sig ,the deliverance heads, the classic series, the CL's, and then there combos like the 50st, the pitbull 45, the MEMPHIS ( which is nothing like fryette has EVER done)....I am really not sure where you are going with that statement.

Engl Thunder, powerball savage, or WHATEVER. TO me they all still sound very processed to me. I'll give you that the savage maybe cuts through (maybe, I didn't hear it, but for arguments sake) but it also came through as very harsh to me. Again I reiterate, these are my opinions, and experiences. The guy asked for some, and I am giving him mine.


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## wlfers (Sep 11, 2011)

Calm down, you seem a bit challenged and upset that someone is disagreeing with you.

Saying you have real world experience doesn't make your opinion any more valid, everyone who has participated in this thread has owned or tried the amps they are talking about. The two amp lines I know most about are VHT and Engl.

Amps breathe differently under different biases, power sections, pickups etc. If you're going to try and Engl and call it lifeless "in the real world" don't be so butthurt when someone asks if you actually tried to work with the amp. 

Yes, I believe the Engl line is more diverse- and that doesn't mean better so calm down. I'm completely aware of Fryette's current catalog: 4 lines of amp heads with different models varying with their power section/wattage/features. If you want to be constructive, tell the OP which Engl heads sounded lifeless instead of "Engls sound lifeless".


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## iff (Sep 12, 2011)

Would not buy any Engl (or Framus) due to reliability issues.


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## 7 Dying Trees (Sep 13, 2011)

My UL used to pretty much destroy an engl e670 with a mesa 2:90. I love the VHT stuff I really do. 

Basically, if you've never spent time with a VHT/Fryette before, it is a bit weird to start off with:
- Gain does NOT saturate, yeah, you read it right, basically you get more gain than you'll ever need but it remains tight. 
- Does not sound huge on it's own, however, put it in a band mix and you'll always hear it, it just cuts in the right place without trying to dominate everything.
- Mids are aggressive and raw, it is a savage amp.
- Tight as hell, punishes bad playing, rewards good playing.

Engls, well, i've never got on with them, just a bit too processed, good amps, but they are not boutique by any stretch. 

I will not ever sell my UL, it's going nowhere as I love it too much. Oh, and the edge switch (if on the GP3) is amazing for leads, literally awesome.


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## 7 Dying Trees (Sep 13, 2011)

Oh, and even though I hate to say this, the Fryette/VHT p50 cabs really do sound best, I tried to deny it for years, but they just work so well together. v30's are not great with it though, bit dull.


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## VESmedic (Sep 13, 2011)

athawulf said:


> Calm down, you seem a bit challenged and upset that someone is disagreeing with you.
> 
> Saying you have real world experience doesn't make your opinion any more valid, everyone who has participated in this thread has owned or tried the amps they are talking about. The two amp lines I know most about are VHT and Engl.
> 
> ...


 

First of all, I am quite calm, I just feel as if you didn't read what I was saying. And yes, I do feel that if someone has used an amp live, in multiple different settings, different stages, jam sessions, recording etc, i DO feel that makes it a tad more valid....Or do you think the bedroom wankers opinion is just as valid? Come on....

Sure, I tried to work with the amp, but sorry, like I said, I've never had a piece of equipment just turn into the most amazing thing I have ever heard by doing something as simple as biasing an amp. It just isn't going to happen. For my opinion to change on Engl's, they would have turn into a completely different amp. Seriously, try and be honest, have you EVER played an amp, that did not work for you in the least, then you plug in a different guitar, or change the tubes, or something rather MINUTE, and it became the sound you have been searching for all of your life?


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## Philmorris (Sep 13, 2011)

VESmedic said:


> Again...I said MULTIPLE MULTIPLE MULTIPLE TIMES....IN MY EXPERIENCE...
> 
> And again, I have never heard an Engl live that sounded utterly over the top, and cut through wonderfully with a full band and another guitar player. I also stated that I have owned a savage 120, that to me, suffered from the same issue.....



Listen to Dissection live DVD called _The Rebirth of Dissection. J_on played ENGL with les Paul and he was cutting very nice compared to other guitar player who used peavey 5150.
I had fireball and cut nicely in mix.
From my experience with engls, i can only say that people obviously dial them wrong.


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## Floppystrings (Sep 13, 2011)

I loved my Powerball.

But never liked the Ultralead, too dry, too tight. Palm mutes sound too sterile etc.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Sep 13, 2011)

7 Dying Trees said:


> Oh, and the edge switch (if on the GP3) is amazing for leads, literally awesome.



It does, it's just called something else. Performs the same function though.


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## Floppystrings (Sep 13, 2011)

VESmedic said:


> ....Or do you think the bedroom wankers opinion is just as valid? Come on....



Wow, people still call each other bedroom wankers these days?



I don't consider your opinion valid, I consider it hilarious.


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## VESmedic (Sep 13, 2011)

Floppystrings said:


> Wow, people still call each other bedroom wankers these days?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't consider your opinion valid, I consider it hilarious.


 

oh I'm sorry, what would be more appropriate these days? DJENTleman bedroom players? 

Hillarious or not, I obviously am not the only person that feels this way sooooo......


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## wlfers (Sep 13, 2011)

VESmedic said:


> First of all, I am quite calm, I just feel as if you didn't read what I was saying. And yes, I do feel that if someone has used an amp live, in multiple different settings, different stages, jam sessions, recording etc, i DO feel that makes it a tad more valid....Or do you think the bedroom wankers opinion is just as valid? Come on....
> 
> Sure, I tried to work with the amp, but sorry, like I said, I've never had a piece of equipment just turn into the most amazing thing I have ever heard by doing something as simple as biasing an amp. It just isn't going to happen. For my opinion to change on Engl's, they would have turn into a completely different amp. Seriously, try and be honest, have you EVER played an amp, that did not work for you in the least, then you plug in a different guitar, or change the tubes, or something rather MINUTE, and it became the sound you have been searching for all of your life?




Keep on at the straw man. Nobody in this entire thread ever said that experience didn't translate... And to be quite honest, how on earth do you know the experience level of everyone in this thread? If you're assuming everyone is a "bedroom wanker" besides you, then I think you're just spouting your opinion for some sort of self validation rather than to actually engage in any discussion because you're automatically correct in everything you say.

And to the last bit, I never said you make a shit amp great by tweaking it- but you definitely can alter some characteristics that you do not like. If you despise the Engls sound that much, nobody is forcing you to like it. Just be ready to back it up instead of saying "I have real world experience therefore I'm exempt from being constructive".


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## wlfers (Sep 13, 2011)

7 Dying Trees said:


> I will not ever sell my UL, it's going nowhere as I love it too much. Oh, and the edge switch (if on the GP3) is amazing for leads, literally awesome.



I only sold my UL because I'm in the market for a GP3


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## VESmedic (Sep 13, 2011)

athawulf said:


> Keep on at the straw man. Nobody in this entire thread ever said that experience didn't translate... And to be quite honest, how on earth do you know the experience level of everyone in this thread? If you're assuming everyone is a "bedroom wanker" besides you, then I think you're just spouting your opinion for some sort of self validation rather than to actually engage in any discussion because you're automatically correct in everything you say.
> 
> And to the last bit, I never said you make a shit amp great by tweaking it- but you definitely can alter some characteristics that you do not like. If you despise the Engls sound that much, nobody is forcing you to like it. Just be ready to back it up instead of saying "I have real world experience therefore I'm exempt from being constructive".


 


Back what up? I believe I did just that? I stated what I didn't like, and why I didn't like it, period? Look I don't "despise" engls, I (once again) never said that. Some of my favorite guitar tones ever recorded were with Engls. Some of my absolute favorite players swear by them. They are among those amps that I "want" to love...I just don't, for reasons I already stated. It seems you are the one thats offended by that....

And no, I don't believe that I am the only one who has ever played on stage before, I DO however think alot of people spout off advice that have never really used anything outside of their own bedroom: Unless, of course, the internet world of guitar has just miraculously changed since I started on the forums 14 years ago and now no one plays in their bedrooms anymore and are all mostly gigging musicians? and I believe it is nice to know where people are getting their opinions from/perspective from when they give one, wouldn't you agree?


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## Floppystrings (Sep 13, 2011)

VESmedic said:


> And no, I don't believe that I am the only one who has ever played on stage before, I DO however think alot of people spout off advice that have never really used anything outside of their own bedroom: Unless, of course, the internet world of guitar has just miraculously changed since I started on the forums 14 years ago and now no one plays in their bedrooms anymore and are all mostly gigging musicians? and I believe it is nice to know where people are getting their opinions from/perspective from when they give one, wouldn't you agree?



I bet you used to post on Harmony Central huh...

We aren't dicks here, just a heads up. If you look around, no one is posting like a dick. Just so you know.


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## wlfers (Sep 13, 2011)

I completely agree about knowing the history behind the opinion . I've had years of audio engineer experience starting at 13 for school then through college and work- granted not in a metal/hi gain application. But aside from that I've also been a recording and performing artist. This thread just doesn't need that kind of experience competition though.

And it's also just different to assume everyone's opinion is inferior off the bat.

Anyway as I said before I don't like some of Engl's line for some of the same reasons you dislike them. Fryettes have been consistently pleasing to me, yet as I mentioned with my diverse statement: an Engl will hit or miss the right spot but when it hits it, I enjoy it just as much. ​


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## VESmedic (Sep 13, 2011)

athawulf said:


> I completely agree about knowing the history behind the opinion . I've had years of audio engineer experience starting at 13 for school then through college and work- granted not in a metal/hi gain application. But aside from that I've also been a recording and performing artist. This thread just doesn't need that kind of experience competition though.​
> 
> And it's also just different to assume everyone's opinion is inferior off the bat.​
> Anyway as I said before I don't like some of Engl's line for some of the same reasons you dislike them. Fryettes have been consistently pleasing to me, yet as I mentioned with my diverse statement: an Engl will hit or miss the right spot but when it hits it, I enjoy it just as much.​


 

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to come off as that I feel everyone elses opinion is inferior, that was not at all my intention


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## VESmedic (Sep 13, 2011)

Floppystrings said:


> I bet you used to post on Harmony Central huh...
> 
> We aren't dicks here, just a heads up. If you look around, no one is posting like a dick. Just so you know.


 


Years ago yes...so? Who HASN'T????


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## JeffHenneman (Sep 13, 2011)

I had a gp3 preamp for a short time and regret getting rid of it. MY favorite thing about that preamp was that with the gain completely dimed it sounded awesome, lots of gain, very big and not compressed. I guess my point about it is that all the gain on tap is usable with that preamp.


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## onefingersweep (Sep 14, 2011)

TMM said:


> That's sort of a blanket statement... there are ENGLs that don't sound like the VHT, but the SE is definitely very similar, tonally. Not at all in responsiveness or the way it saturates, but the tone is very similar. I say this having owned and tracked with 3 E570s (the SE pre) and my VHT GP3 (current). They 'feel' different to play, but the tracked tone is very similar.



It may be so, there are probably a lot of amps that have similar voicing but there's too much difference in the ENGL sound and Fryette sound for them to be compared IMO.

Can you post sound samples of those two, so we can hear the tonal similarities you talk about?


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## wlfers (Sep 14, 2011)

onefingersweep said:


> It may be so





onefingersweep said:


> but



What???


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## TMM (Sep 14, 2011)

onefingersweep said:


> It may be so, there are probably a lot of amps that have similar voicing but there's too much difference in the ENGL sound and Fryette sound for them to be compared IMO.
> 
> Can you post sound samples of those two, so we can hear the tonal similarities you talk about?



http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/gear-equipment/168808-grand-ngd-pt1.html

Just read the titles for what amp / preamp was used for each clip:

TheMammonMachine's sounds on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free


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## onefingersweep (Sep 15, 2011)

TMM said:


> http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/gear-equipment/168808-grand-ngd-pt1.html
> 
> Just read the titles for what amp / preamp was used for each clip:
> 
> TheMammonMachine's sounds on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free



Ok you were just talking about the preamp, I see. I missed that sorry. Thats just 50% of the amp. That could explain a lot of the similarity.


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## onefingersweep (Sep 15, 2011)

athawulf said:


> What???



What do you want to know? Be more specific.


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## wlfers (Sep 16, 2011)

It was just funny you said "they may sound similar" "but you can't compare" in the same sentence.

And the only references in this thread to similar sound have been about the special edition preamp.


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## onefingersweep (Sep 16, 2011)

athawulf said:


> It was just funny you said "they may sound similar" "but you can't compare" in the same sentence.
> 
> And the only references in this thread to similar sound have been about the special edition preamp.



If you read my comment again you will see that I'm talking about similar voicing. A completely clean amp can have similar voicing as an amp with distortion, can you compared them? Sure but whats the point in comparing them, they are not in the same category.


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## Floppystrings (Sep 16, 2011)

riot said:


> Hold on...who the fuck are you again? May we have some links to your music as proof of this "real world" experience you have? Because I notice a lot of these self-proclaimed "real world" experts who have this internet elitist attitude over gear and equipment (and thus, boast a lot of this "real world" experience that they claim to have), turn out to be the "bedroom wankers" they seemingly put down.



Or they end up being cover band guys in their 40's.

lol

I play real gigs son! Lemme tell you about life!


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## Larrikin666 (Sep 16, 2011)

riot said:


> Eh...cover band guys in their 40's probably aren't interested in music that involves 7-strings, VHTs, or Engls.



Unless they are fans of Dave Weiner playing for Steve Vai


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## VESmedic (Sep 16, 2011)

riot said:


> Hold on...who the fuck are you again? May we have some links to your music as proof of this "real world" experience you have? Because I notice a lot of these self-proclaimed "real world" experts who have this internet elitist attitude over gear and equipment (and thus, boast a lot of this "real world" experience that they claim to have), turn out to be the "bedroom wankers" they seemingly put down.


 

WHO the FUCK are you clowndo? Where the hell did I say anything about being an elitist? Dont get your fucking pantys in a bunch just because YOU take offense to playing in your moms basement...jesus christ, alittle touchy are we?


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## Larrikin666 (Sep 16, 2011)

riot said:


> Hold on...who the fuck are you again? May we have some links to your music as proof of this "real world" experience you have? Because I notice a lot of these self-proclaimed "real world" experts who have this internet elitist attitude over gear and equipment (and thus, boast a lot of this "real world" experience that they claim to have), turn out to be the "bedroom wankers" they seemingly put down.





VESmedic said:


> WHO the FUCK are you clowndo? Where the hell did I say anything about being an elitist? Dont get your fucking pantys in a bunch just because YOU take offense to playing in your moms basement...jesus christ, alittle touchy are we?



Both of you need to calm down. Neither of you are adding anything to the topic at this point, so stopping filling the thread with your BS.


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## Taylor2 (Sep 16, 2011)

To be honest, I agree fully with onefingersweep on most of the ENGL amps he mentioned. Not quite the way I'd go about it, but whatever.


As someone who toured across Canada for two years solid, with one guitarist using an ENGL Fireball and Powerball, and me with a Peavey 6505, I can agree that those ENGL amps do not cut THAT well. They seem to be rather relaxed in the mix. The Savage and SE I cannot vouch for.
But in the situation I was using the amps, which was mostly un-mic'd-guitar shows, the Peavey always stomped over the ENGL.


I also toured at one point with a Fryette Sig:X and CLX, and they cut amazingly well.
Almost too much sometimes....



In the end kids it's still an opinion, and everyone has different musical choices and different situations.
What works for you may not work for someone else.


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## wlfers (Sep 16, 2011)

onefingersweep said:


> If you read my comment again you will see that I'm talking about similar voicing. A completely clean amp can have similar voicing as an amp with distortion, can you compared them? Sure but whats the point in comparing them, they are not in the same category.



Saying they sound similar in terms of tone is already a comparison in itself. The meaning of comparison already implies the two objects being compared are inherently different... You're actually suppose to compare different things. 

As TTM stated, the tracked tone of the 570 (special edition preamp) is oddly similar to the preamp section of the UL/CLX etc (gp3). Not at all though in terms of response or gain saturation though.


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## wlfers (Sep 16, 2011)

Taylor said:


> To be honest, I agree fully with onefingersweep on most of the ENGL amps he mentioned. Not quite the way I'd go about it, but whatever.
> 
> 
> As someone who toured across Canada for two years solid, with one guitarist using an ENGL Fireball and Powerball, and me with a Peavey 6505, I can agree that those ENGL amps do not cut THAT well. They seem to be rather relaxed in the mix. The Savage and SE I cannot vouch for.
> ...



From what I've heard most people have had that experience with the early xxballs- and has left me disliking their sound. It seems though that the Fireball 100 and Powerball II both are dramatic improvements yet I still haven't given them a chance, maybe unfairly so, because of what I heard of their predecessors. 



Taylor said:


> In the end kids it's still an opinion, and everyone has different musical choices and different situations.
> What works for you may not work for someone else.



Oh no you di'int!


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## Larrikin666 (Sep 16, 2011)

I've had nothing but good experiences with my ENGL SE over the last four years. I've used it against a Madison Divinity II, Peavey 5150, and Laboga Mr Hector Duo. Now, our other guitarist using my SE while I use my Axe-FX II. We've never had issues with one of us burying the other. I did have issues when I owned the Fireball 100 for a few weeks, and I also noticed a similar midrange voicing to the Powerball V2, so I understand how they could get lost when mixed with certain amps. There's a trend with channel four on all ENGL amps being VERY scooped. I've found that with the SE, Invader, and Powerball thus far. Channel 3 generally seems to be the sweet spot for me in terms of voicing. I'm a big fan of a prominent, crunchy midrange in my rhythms.


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## Deathbringer769 (Sep 16, 2011)

Channel 4 being scooped? Channel 4 on my Invader(the lead channel) seems to be dripping with mids and saturation while Channel 3 is a super scooped djenty brootz fest. I like to use Channel 2 for most rhythms because that's where I hear the crunchy midrange goodness (the gain feels tighter too)


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## Larrikin666 (Sep 16, 2011)

Deathbringer769 said:


> Channel 4 being scooped? Channel 4 on my Invader(the lead channel) seems to be dripping with mids and saturation while Channel 3 is a super scooped djenty brootz fest. I like to use Channel 2 for most rhythms because that's where I hear the crunchy midrange goodness (the gain feels tighter too)



Maybe they changed that on the Invader 100, which is the only Invader I've had any experience with.


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## Taylor2 (Sep 16, 2011)

athawulf said:


> From what I've heard most people have had that experience with the early xxballs- and has left me disliking their sound. It seems though that the Fireball 100 and Powerball II both are dramatic improvements yet I still haven't given them a chance, maybe unfairly so, because of what I heard of their predecessors.



Interestingly enough, there is a local band around these parts whose guitarists played through the new Powerball and the other an Invader.

The Invader just buried the Powerball. It was actually pretty funny.

However, since I didn't have control over the amps, I couldn't dial in better settings, but even still.






athawulf said:


> Oh no you di'int!


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## Larrikin666 (Sep 16, 2011)

Taylor said:


> However, since I didn't have control over the amps, I couldn't dial in better settings, but even still.



That's the worst. There have been so many times at the show where I wanted to jump on the stage and start tweaking during another band's set because their tone was so off.


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## grindgod (Mar 25, 2012)

Ive had an Engl Powerball, and while it had decent tone, in my opinion it was kind of lackluster sure it had good harmonics and gain, but it wasnt really exciting and didnt "leap out of the speakers" so to speak. I also had my friends Engl S.E. for a couple months, and while it sounded a little better, still lacked that same excitability. More Girth with the SE but both are not very articulate.

Now VHT/Fryette on the other hand are quite the opposite. Pitbull series (all of them) are fairly complex to dial in but once you get there it sounds awesome. It seems like they dont have much Gain but they really are Monsters. I currently Favor the UL above the CL or CLX, and also have a SIG:X which is actually pretty versitle and easy to dial in, and very saturated or dry depending on your tastes. Likely one of the most versitle amps Ive ever owned.

I also have owned a GP3(modded) and 2/90/2 rack setup, and That system absolutley crushed everything I currently own or have previously owned, the problem was the preamp gets too hot and has a thermal shutdown feature, which is absolutely annoying right in the middle of a set or practice.... The preamp has no ventilation. They could have simply added a small fan and opened up the chassy with vent holes to the unit it would be the perfect preamp. Over any other preamps currently offered on the market.

On a side note I will say, certain Mesas are pretty killer too,I have a MarkIII blue stripe head which offers articulation, girth and great Harmonic structure, I also have an early Mesa Dual Rectifier Rackmount, which sounds pretty killer, Tons of Low end and punch, but lacks articulation, but really cuts through regardless of the Midrange positioning.


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## Wizard of Ozz (Mar 25, 2012)

I had a new 2011 Fryette Ultra-Lead for a few weeks, and sold it to get my Engl SE EL34. I also had a 2004 VHT Ultra-Lead, some years ago. I actually posted the review of my UL in the Gear Review section today.

Fryette builds great amps, but they all have a very dry, tight, super-articulate, zero saturated, high-gain sound, feel, and response. It's very different and unique to say the least. I missed the more familiar saturated high-gain sound and feel... and went back to Engl.

No right or wrong here, just different flavors.


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## KAMI (Mar 25, 2012)

having tried both the engl savage 60 and the fryette deliverance 60 extensively

I walked away with the savage 60


I did not like the deliverance, but I did get to briefly try a pitbull and that was one hell of an awesome amp.



I love how my engl 'quacks', it cuts through like a chainsaw and has mids that rip through your soul. It's surgically tight and stays so as you turn it up. 

If your going to get an engl with el34's I would recommend changing them for 6ca7's. They have much cleaner and tighter head room, much like 6550's


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## mike0 (Mar 25, 2012)

necro bump ftw?


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