# Kahler Pro 2228K stability



## vansinn (Mar 28, 2009)

This is of course related to the new Agile Interseptors 

Please, I do not wish to open yet another general Kaher discussion.
This is specifically about pitch stability after string bending when using the Kahler Pro 2228K, I don't care what might be or not with older models.

Past discussions here'n'there have indicated strings do not return to pitch after bendings. I simply cannot live with having to dip the arm.

Last year (IIRC) I discussed the various claimed Kahler issues with Josh (not with Kahler anylonger), who said is was a matter of correct setup. I have absolutely no problems with even time consuming setups; one I've found my setup with the desired strings et al, it stays that way.

I'm close to going the Interceptor route, and will use the semi-blocking add-on screw for the Kahler, which might have an impact on possible stability issues.


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## SnowfaLL (Mar 28, 2009)

I thought those particular kahler models couldnt use the semi-blocking add-on screw?


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## Dusty201087 (Mar 28, 2009)

From what I've seen/read (note that I have NO experience with any Kahlers besides some 6 strings ones), the newer models and especially the 7 string + models with a decent setup have almost totally lost the pitch bend problem. 

A good guy to ask is Hauch (sp?) on this forum, he knows the dude that has the BRJ Jeykll 828 with a Kahler and IIRC he's played it, so he'd be the best dude to ask. That or I'm sure you could just hit up a luthier like BRJ or maybe Mike Sherman and ask them their opinion. There's actually even been some pictures of a recent guitar Sherman's building with a fanned fret 8 string Kahler trem system, and if Kahler can get that to be stable I'm pretty sure the normal 8 string trem would be A1.

Hope that helped man! I'd also like to hear some first hand experience because I've only played the sixxers and the pitch bend problem was REALLY apparent.


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## vansinn (Mar 30, 2009)

NickCormier said:


> I thought those particular kahler models couldnt use the semi-blocking add-on screw?



Well, that I'm unsure about.. according to http://www.wammiworld.com/Drop D details.html, it might seem all models can be outfitted with that D-screw, but then again, whammiworld doesn't carry the Pro 2228K model, so.. 
I've been looking at the insstall explanations and compared to what I can find on kahlerparts, but non-conclusive.. haven't written the two parties as yet..


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## motabaco (Dec 31, 2009)

vansinn said:


> This is of course related to the new Agile Interseptors
> 
> Please, I do not wish to open yet another general Kaher discussion.
> This is specifically about pitch stability after string bending when using the Kahler Pro 2228K, I don't care what might be or not with older models.
> ...



I'm also curious about this pitch bend problem.. I'm not too fond of kahlers.. but that new agile Interceptor Pro 8 string on the sight is badass.. I want a neckthru model 8 so bad..
and for 1000.. BADASS!!!! AGILE


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## Hollowway (Dec 31, 2009)

The 2228K DOES have the screw to lock it. I have one of the Interceptor 827s from the summer run. The next models from Rondo will have a different Kahler, but it's still got the little screw. Keep in mind, though, that the screw has no bearing on the return to pitch issue that Kahlers (may) have. In fact, you'd have more problems engaging the screw because then you couldn't dip the bar after the bend to return it to the correct pitch. FWIW I love trems, but I would switch to a Floyd in a heartbeat if they made an 8 string one. It took me forever to get the Kahler to the point I like it. It does still have pitch bending issues, but not as significant as those found in that youtube vid of the Kahler vs OFR. The biggest issue for me is that the Kahler doesn't drop the pitch as much as the OFR does on all of the string. e.g. the high E string only goes down 1.5 steps (so to C#) when the bar is all the way against the body. But the low F# goes completely slack long before the bar hits the body. So certain strings have limited use trem wise. i.e. you can't really hit a harmonic on the first string and dive it, since it only drops 1.5 steps! 
Let me know if you have any other questions and I'll try to answer them. I've got a OFR on every sixer I have, but this is my only Kahler (right now). 

All that being said, my future 8s will have Kahler's whenever possible, because if you want a trem on an 8, it's the only game in town.

And btw, the owner has said that there are a number of "issues" with the multiscale Kahler on that Sherman, so I wouldn't get too excited about that option ATM.


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## vansinn (Jan 1, 2010)

Hi Andy,
Do you get the same pitch difference when pulling the bar?

I'm thinking.. could the difference in pitch change be that the cam is pressing down or relieving equally on all strings, but the lower they get, the thicker?
Meaning that thicker strings gets actuated a Bit more than the thinner ones - it only takes very little string bending to produce a noticable pitch change.

Would've been interesting asking Josh if they ever tried with an asymmetric cam profile.
Pity he left Kahler (have no idea why)..


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## Zhuriel (Jan 1, 2010)

I don't know how it is with the 8strings, but this:
 
at 7:40 seems very clear proof that a proper setup doesn't have any problems.


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## Hollowway (Jan 1, 2010)

vansinn said:


> Hi Andy,
> Do you get the same pitch difference when pulling the bar?
> 
> I'm thinking.. could the difference in pitch change be that the cam is pressing down or relieving equally on all strings, but the lower they get, the thicker?
> ...



I'll have to check pulling up on the bar - I haven't checked that, but generally pulling up I don't need more than 1 or 2 steps, so that hasn't been an issue so far. But for the the reason behind it, I think you're exactly right. I actually posted a thing in the Pickups, Electronics & General Tech section about how to set up the Kahler for 8 strings so you get the closest pitch drop on all of the strings. It's basically that you take the low strings and put a 90 degree bend right at the ball end so when the string is in the saddle it presses down on the cam, which allows for less pitch drop. But, your idea of the asym. cam is awesome! That would totally solve all the problems with the thing!

As far as being able to set the Kahler up so there's no bending issues or string slippage, etc., I know that it's possible to make it much better, but fundamentally I have a hard time paying $400 for a trem, and then having to solder each string I put on the thing, and then spend all this time oiling, chapstick, or whatever the Hell the steps are. Seems like a lot of work for an expensive trem. /rant

So with your idea in mind, maybe I'll try to rig up something where something is glued to the top of the cam for the higher strings, and see if that helps drop the pitch more. On my particular guitar that might be a little tricky, because the trem is not recessed (as with all Interceptors) so raising the cam would mean raising the string off the roller, and that means crazy high action on the high strings. If I get super motivated maybe I'll shim the neck and then try your asym. cam idea, though. I think you have a winner there.


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## Edroz (Jan 1, 2010)

i don't have any experience with the 8 string Kahler Pros, but the Kahler Pro 2317 on my KxK is solid as a rock. 

proper setup is key. Kahlers can be a little tedious to setup since there's SO many things to adjust on them, but i think it's worth it in the long run. they are so smooth feeling and i think overall they sustain and sound better than OFRs.


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## XeoFLCL (Jan 1, 2010)

Zhuriel said:


> I don't know how it is with the 8strings, but this:
> 
> at 7:40 seems very clear proof that a proper setup doesn't have any problems.



He is slightly out of tune though..


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## vansinn (Jan 1, 2010)

vansinn said:


> I'm thinking.. could the difference in pitch change be that the cam is pressing down or relieving equally on all strings, but the lower they get, the thicker?
> Meaning that thicker strings gets actuated a Bit more than the thinner ones - it only takes very little string bending to produce a noticable pitch change.
> 
> Would've been interesting asking Josh if they ever tried with an asymmetric cam profile.





Hollowway said:


> ...for the the reason behind it, I think you're exactly right. I actually posted a thing in the Pickups, Electronics & General Tech section about how to set up the Kahler for 8 strings so you get the closest pitch drop on all of the strings. It's basically that you take the low strings and put a 90 degree bend right at the ball end so when the string is in the saddle it presses down on the cam, which allows for less pitch drop. But, your idea of the asym. cam is awesome! That would totally solve all the problems with the thing!
> ..snipped..
> So with your idea in mind, maybe I'll try to rig up something where something is glued to the top of the cam for the higher strings, and see if that helps drop the pitch more. On my particular guitar that might be a little tricky, because the trem is not recessed (as with all Interceptors) so raising the cam would mean raising the string off the roller, and that means crazy high action on the high strings. If I get super motivated maybe I'll shim the neck and then try your asym. cam idea, though. I think you have a winner there.



Nonono.. don't shim the cam, it'll likely never be good'n'smooth.
I'm talking about a cam correctly mashined for the right asymmetric profile.
Given how long Kahler's have been on the market, I'd assume they had tried something in that direction themselves, but you never know..

I'll guess a mashineshop specialising in camshaft realignments could mod the factory Kahler profile, though you'll likely loose a Bit of the total action.


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## myconfidenceinu (Jan 1, 2010)

XeoFLCL said:


> He is slightly out of tune though..



HAHA you have a good ear. any chance you have perfect pitch? things out of tune drive me bonkers because of it...


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## Hollowway (Jan 1, 2010)

vansinn said:


> Nonono.. don't shim the cam, it'll likely never be good'n'smooth.
> I'm talking about a cam correctly mashined for the right asymmetric profile.
> Given how long Kahler's have been on the market, I'd assume they had tried something in that direction themselves, but you never know..
> 
> I'll guess a mashineshop specialising in camshaft realignments could mod the factory Kahler profile, though you'll likely loose a Bit of the total action.



No, I know! But the odds of me getting a custom machined cam to retrofit my Kahler are slim to none. I just wanted to add a bit to the top to test the theory, and find out how much asymmetry would be necessary to even things out, pitch-wise. No doubt a ghettoed cam shim would fail, but it would be just a pilot study.


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## vansinn (Jan 10, 2010)

FWIW, on january 2nd I wrote Kahler about this discussion, but so far no reply..


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## extract7 (Jan 16, 2010)

The action on the Interceptor 8 with Kahler on Kurt's sight looks to have quite a high to med action. Anyone know if you can get a super low adjustment out of one of these Kahlers? I'd hate to have to re-rout for it. No experience with Kahlers, so don't know if they are as adjustable as a Floyd.


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## Hollowway (Jan 16, 2010)

Yeah, you can do it. I have one that came with high action, and I thought I was going to have to shim the neck. I sure as Hell was not going to route the body to sink it! But as it turned out all I had to do was take a Dremel and buzz off the tops of the screws on the saddles just behind the rollers so the rollers could be lowered enough. Now I have about 1.1mm action on the high E I can actually get it lower, but it starts to fret out on bends in certain areas. If I were to really carefully dress all the frets, I could probably shave another 0.1 to 0.2 mm off, but I'm not going to go through all that effort. The low strings are no problem due to the thickness. And, I don't know that anyone else has had to do this, but I don't know what they like their action at. I'm personally obsessive about low action.


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## damigu (Jan 16, 2010)

vansinn said:


> Past discussions here'n'there have indicated strings do not return to pitch after bendings. I simply cannot live with having to dip the arm.



i've been using kahlers for years and i've never run into this "problem" during normal play.

it only happens when you do ridiculously huge bends. bends that i've never seen anyone do in actual music/playing--just when tooling around.


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## vansinn (Jan 16, 2010)

damigu said:


> i've been using kahlers for years and i've never run into this "problem" during normal play.
> 
> it only happens when you do ridiculously huge bends. bends that i've never seen anyone do in actual music/playing--just when tooling around.



Since you have no issues, it would be interesting to hear on which axe, which scale, which string gaugesm and how high your strings are elevated over the body right before the bridge.
A pic showing the saddle adjustments, i.e. how high they're lifted, would be great.


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## damigu (Jan 16, 2010)

one is an original kahler pro on a 6 string with the action set pretty low. it's a basswood strat-like body, 25.5" scale bolt-on maple neck with a locking nut. not the behind-the-nut lock that some kahlers come with, but an actual locking nut (that fact makes a huge difference for tuning stability).

the other is a 7 string project guitar (currently in pieces, but i did have it together and playable for a few weeks), also a 25.5" scale basswood body w/ bolt on maple neck. also relatively low action and with an actual locking nut.

i've had a bunch of different string gauges on both. everything from 8's to 11's. and, believe it or not, i never even knew about the string bend "problem" until i heard about it thanks to that horrendously biased kahler/floyd comparison video (i could tell within the first few minutes he was going to somehow bias it for the floyd, and he did in many different ways--including bending the string almost to the top of the fretboard in order to exploit that "problem").
i did once have a kahler clone, however, that was very prone to that problem (the original bridge on the above mentioned 6 string). the real kahler has never given me any trouble at all.


there is no special saddle adjustment or string height necessary for a kahler to work perfectly. as long as you don't bend notes by ridiculous amounts, you'll be fine. the usual half and full step bends are no problem at all. somewhere around 1 1/2 or 2 step bends is where it becomes a problem--but even blues guitarists rarely bend that much. and it depends on where you bend it. bending around the 12th fret has less of an effect for that "problem" than a large bend further from the middle of the string.

ask anyone else who has used a kahler and they'll tell you the exact same thing--it's not a genuine problem and you likely will never run into it during normal playing. and that video is evil for making it sound like it's some constant issue.


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## Hollowway (Jan 16, 2010)

damigu said:


> there is no special saddle adjustment or string height necessary for a kahler to work perfectly.


 
So that's what you've found? When I was emailing Wammi J back and forth he (and that web site) is pretty adamant about there being a certain height the rollers need to be. Lower than that and you lose sustain, higher than that and you run into the bending problems. The problem for me is that adjusting roller height is the ONLY way to adjust the action at the bridge, and I think it's weird for people to be recommending I shim my neck or route the body more/less to alter the action. I personally agree with you, that roller height doesn't make that much difference (within reason) but I think we might be in the minority. i.e. People suggested to me I route my body 1mm to sink the Kahler. I just lowered the rollers instead!


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## damigu (Jan 16, 2010)

well, there is the minimum height that they need to be at just so that the string will sit firmly in the rollers. but even with that, i get decently low action.

and that brings up one of my favorite aspects of a kahler: if you have low action, pulling back a floyd will bottom out your strings onto your frets but that doesn't happen with a kahler at all!!


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## vansinn (Jan 17, 2010)

David and Andy, it's good to have these comments. When I suggested the higher saddle action, I was thinking the higher force from strings over higher rollers and under a lower cam would counteract some thought-of sloppyness.

Given the latest comments, I guess the opposite actually takes place: With higher action and thus more force under the cam, deep bends may place more pressure in the cam, and thus cause the cam to move a bit, which will then require the much-commented whammyarm dip.

It's becoming evident to me that a Kahler operating correctly simply depends on correct install and adjustments.
For these reasons, I still think the many comments on Kahlers not working well are simply due to improper install and adjustemts, according to specs.

I bend a lot, and mostly not more than 1½-2 stops, though sometimes I apply Jeff Beck style multiple bends on a single string, which may go 2½ stops.
I developed this technique because my whammy wouldn't stay on target, so I locked it and bend instead 

Remaining topics:
1. The async tension issue Andy mentions with chords not staying on pitch when dipping (and pulling?)
2. What's needed to make the multiscale Kahler work, as reported by.. Leo ? (now, where are my memory pills when I need them..)


FWIW, I opened this thread long time ago when I was about going 7/8, and wanted info on whether or not Kahlers actually do have those claimed issues.
11month of unmeployment kept off the projects; now that I have a job again, it's good to have this info under the belt for upcoming decitions.
Hopefully I didn't confuse anyone..


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## Hollowway (Jan 17, 2010)

Yeah, I love threads like this. I learn waaaay more when we have a back and forth discussion with multiple replies rather than several different people chiming in and not following up. 
Anyway, the pitch issue isn't so much a problem for me with chords going out of tune when you dive, it's more that I can't get the high E (for instance) to drop more than 1.5 steps. My Floyds can't keep a chord in tune either, but I get way more pitch drop with them. I'm not exactly sure how the Steinberger Trans Trem works, but I know that it's designed to keep chords in tune.

And yeah, I'm intrigued by the multiscale Kahler as well. It would also see to me that you could bastardize a regular Kahler by taking the saddles off the thing and moving them neckward and putting them on the body, or a little plate on the body, directly. All you really need is the cam from the trem and the roller for the intonation. Nothing says they have to by physically connected. Might be tad ugly, though.


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## damigu (Jan 17, 2010)

the steinberger trans-trem and the washburn wonderbar (or the "wonderboatanchor" as i call it due to its size and weight) can keep chords in tune because you can dial in the amount of tension change for each string individually, whereas the floyd and kahler dump them all simultaneously.

unfortunately, my kahlered guitars are currently in my parents' basement until i can find a bigger place than my current one (hopefully by fall they'll be in my hands again) so i can't really say how much the high string can go down.
when i dump the bar it's almost always on mid/low notes and they easily can go down to wet spaghetti floppiness with the kahler (same as with a floyd). i can't remember how the high strings fared in that, though, sorry.


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## Hollowway (Jan 17, 2010)

Yeah, when I dive bomb for the most part it's low strings, too, but if I want to hit a harmonic and do a Dime type thing, I always do that on G, B or E. And the E is where I run into trouble on the Kahler. That being said, overall I'm happy with the thing. As a lifetime Floyd user it took quite a bit to adjust and get used to, but now I'm pretty comfortable with Kahlers. The one thing I'd like is a tighter fit of the bar on there. That little adjustment screw that pushes the little teflon piece up against the bar to prevent it from spinning doesn't hold it in there nearly tight enough for me. I don't like any play in there at all, so when I touch it I'd prefer to have all the movement translated directly to the strings.


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## philkilla (Jan 18, 2010)

I hope I haven't opened pandora's box by ordering my first Kahler'd guitar as an 8 string..

uh oh.


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## Hollowway (Jan 18, 2010)

Haha, not a chance! Despite all my nitpicking, I love mine! But, don't be discouraged if you get it and initially think, "Bah, this thing SUCKS!" Check out my myriad posts on how to get the Kahler dialed in for an 8, and you'll be fine.


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## freepower (Jan 18, 2010)

philkilla said:


> I hope I haven't opened pandora's box by ordering my first Kahler'd guitar as an 8 string..
> 
> uh oh.



Don't worry about it, my Kahler'd 8 was my first guitar with a trem and I've had no bother. (although cheers to the guys in this thread for the tips - very handy!)

If it scares you just lock it with the little screw - very, very handy that.

The two cons to the Kahler for me are the lack of large pitch change on the high E and B and the fact that bass guitar ball ends won't fit in the bridge so you need to get heavy baritone guitar strings to do an 8 justice.


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## philkilla (Jan 18, 2010)

Cool. This isn't the first leap of faith I've taken. The first V I ever owned was a Ran and I haven't looked back.

I know I'm gonna spend a lot of time dealing with single strings...lol, but are regular strings really long enough for a 30" scale 8 string?


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## damigu (Jan 18, 2010)

Hollowway said:


> The one thing I'd like is a tighter fit of the bar on there. That little adjustment screw that pushes the little teflon piece up against the bar to prevent it from spinning doesn't hold it in there nearly tight enough for me. I don't like any play in there at all, so when I touch it I'd prefer to have all the movement translated directly to the strings.



it doesn't bother me so much because i like the bar being loose enough that it falls out of the way when not being used. i always keep my floyd a bit loose that way, too.


it took me a little getting used to the action of kahler versus floyd, too (kahler is a little "rubbery" and has smoother and more linear response), but i'm not looking back at all. i only have one floyded guitar left, and any guitars i buy in the future will be a kahler (even the non-trem guitars, because i love the feel of the kahler against the side of my hand).


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## KahlerPlayer (Jun 4, 2010)

Keeping a kahler 6 string in tune is dead easy. Buy the bass springs lubricate the rollers and cam once every 3 months.
Use REINFORCED STRINGS, those strings are on the marked for kahler tremolos.
And for everyone who thinks having know locking nut throws it out of tune your wrong.
Buy a graphite guitar nut insert it into the nut place, then buy locking tuners and install them. Works perfectly

Contact me if you have any problems with your kahler.


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## Danxile (Jun 6, 2010)

I have the interceptor pro 830 with the kahler trem and I have never had any pitch problems at all I do a lot of bending to get the djent sound and I was actually very surprised as to how well my guitar stays in tune. Hope this helps dude if you have any questions i'll be glad to answer them


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## ra1der2 (Jun 6, 2010)

Originally Posted by *Hollowway* 

 
_The one thing I'd like is a tighter fit of the bar on there. That little adjustment screw that pushes the little teflon piece up against the bar to prevent it from spinning doesn't hold it in there nearly tight enough for me. I don't like any play in there at all, so when I touch it I'd prefer to have all the movement translated directly to the strings.

_



damigu said:


> it doesn't bother me so much because i like the bar being loose enough that it falls out of the way when not being used. i always keep my floyd a bit loose that way, too.
> 
> 
> it took me a little getting used to the action of kahler versus floyd, too (kahler is a little "rubbery" and has smoother and more linear response), but i'm not looking back at all. i only have one floyded guitar left, and any guitars i buy in the future will be a kahler (even the non-trem guitars, because i love the feel of the kahler against the side of my hand).



The two things I couldn't live without for my kahler's are 3in1 oil for the rollers and the cam shaft, and loctite 271 to hold the bar in place. One tiny drop of that stuff on the threads and the bar will not move without some serious muscle


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