# Theory behind Katatonia etc.



## Francis978 (Jul 8, 2012)

Hey guys,

I've been trying to write in the style of Katatonia, novembre, paradise lost etc. Just dark dark metal with a soft side to it, you know?

I'm having trouble analyzing their music, like what intervals sound best, what chords to play besides the plain powerchords and how they create their leads

Would I be wrong in saying that I should think in minor keys a lot? The minor 3rdkeys interval seems common as well.

Sorry for my ignorance, anyone able to help me out? 
Thanks!


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jul 8, 2012)

Please post some songs. It's a lot easier for me to know what you want when I can hear what it is you're going for. Also, I don't want to go through the effort of seeking out some song, only to write a bigass post about it and have you go, "Oh, I didn't mean their new stuff.


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## Francis978 (Jul 8, 2012)

Katatonia songs: Forsaker, Criminals, My twin, to name a few, the general Idea of what I like about them, but I love all their songs






with the other bands of the like, here are a few more






Sorry about that man XD hope this helps, I appreciate it


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## skeletor88 (Jul 8, 2012)

Katatonia uses a lot of Aeolian(Natural Minor) 

The "darkness" comes from the use of stuff like long analog delays and reverbs used for atmospheric purposes. Check out Devin Townsend's "Ki" to really hear these techniques a lot too. 

Theoretically work a lot with the clash/relationship of certain intervals within Aeolian. The 2nd to 3rd or 5th to 6th in that scale are a single semitone apart giving an eerie tension when played together, but in relation to the root note, it works a lot more musically and can really make some interesting sonic ideas.

Also don't be afraid to get your layers on. That stuff can sometimes have 5-6 guitar parts going at once! Make some simple, and some complex. Experiment with it all. Hope this helps!


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## Francis978 (Jul 8, 2012)

Thank you so much, yeah Aeolian seemed pretty prominant, I just wasn't so sure.

to be sure, the natual minor scale is 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 right? I don't wanna be way off and I am known for confusing modes

being a semi tone apart, would I be wrong in relating that witht the eerieness of "Jaws"? Thats what I relate it with

Yeah from what I listen, it seems that they definitely go out of the basic rhythm layer/lead layer, sometimes I hear like...3 leads at once, some quieter than others

Thanks man!


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## ChronicConsumer (Jul 8, 2012)

Francis978 said:


> Thank you so much, yeah Aeolian seemed pretty prominant, I just wasn't so sure.
> 
> to be sure, the natual minor scale is 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 right? I don't wanna be way off and I am known for confusing modes
> 
> ...




1) Yep, that's the natural minor scale!
2) Actually, it's a good thing you noticed. That 'Jaws' interval is actually a 'minor second'. Memorizing the sound of each interval is GREAT for your ear (and thus for you as a musician in general).
3) Usually, in your 'standard' metal song, you have one rhythm guitar, one lead (though sometimes they use two rhythms and two leads in studio) and often one more in the background to make the song more harmonic; Iron Maiden is pretty well-known for having a second guitar play the same lead as the first guitar, only a third higher (staying in the same key).


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## butterschnapps (Jul 8, 2012)

Fantastic band, been listening to them since 2002. 
They are coming out with a new album on August 27th called Dead End Kings. Reserved just now haha.
Katatonia Reveals Full Details On New Album "Dead End Kings" | MusicBox360
KATATONIA - Dead End Kings


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## Francis978 (Jul 8, 2012)

At least I wasn't mistaken XD thank you!

Yeah Jaws is creepy as hell, hence the minor second interval, there are a few intervals that I just know, minor 2nd, major 2nd, minor 3rd, perfect 4th, augmented 4th, perfect 5th, and the octave, the others are hazy, still working!

So for layering, thats to make it also sound more full right? when you go with something like 2 rhythms? 

Yeah that makes sense, Gotta love maiden <3 thanks man!


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## Francis978 (Jul 8, 2012)

butterschnapps said:


> Fantastic band, been listening to them since 2002.
> They are coming out with a new album on August 27th called Dead End Kings. Reserved just now haha.
> Katatonia Reveals Full Details On New Album "Dead End Kings" | MusicBox360
> KATATONIA - Dead End Kings


 
Dude, you made my day by telling me this! I can't wait, there isn't a song I don't like by them, I grew up with this band XD


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## butterschnapps (Jul 8, 2012)

Francis978 said:


> Dude, you made my day by telling me this! I can't wait, there isn't a song I don't like by them, I grew up with this band XD


 As did I. I found them while looking up songs called Omerta, when listening to Lamb of God, I guess that was actually back in 2004, so I was wrong on that one. I was still 13 though, haha. That's all a bit of a blur, but yeah, still quite a long time. Almost 9 years now. Weird thing is that I was listening to Omerta when I first read a friend's suicide note, he was also a guitarist and singer in a punk band. The lyrics kinda blend in with the situation.


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## trickae (Aug 29, 2012)

katatonia, dark tranquility and opeth use alot of nordic folk influences and layered guitar work. The interesting concept is their fantastic use of cleans that complement the metal. 

The heavy riffage reminds me alot of edge of sanity, dan swano etc and their acoustic work reminds me of Mikael akerfeldt's mid career work. 

Also consider that these bands hang out and share ideas. Dan swano helped produce earlier Opeth work, mikael akerfeldt has worked with Anders norstorm a tonne as well. 

In terms of theory - i wouldn't look at it playing within modes. There are many mode changes in their work. Saying they use just the minor scale is silly - its how they use it. 

Build a repetoire of their materials. Focus on learning songs you like and see what mode changes give it that feel. I can gurantee that these bands use more than just 1 mode. 

Learn songs you like off katatonia's last 3 albums - ashen, forsaker, dead letters, july, soil song etc etc. See how they work their transitions in. Also learn a couple of songs by opeth, especially from still life, damnation, deliverance, black water park and ghost reveries. 

With those songs - analyse what modes they're using and mode shifts change the feel of the song. One interesting technique is using relative minors. That's going from a minor feel mode such as dorian, phyrigian, locrian and shifting that to a relative minor. For example all the bands you've mentioned would go 

A aeolian (minor) and go into A phrygian or A dorian. Learn what notes come in to change the feel. You'll soon notice that you are no longer locked into a scale. I'll post a lesson on pitch axis theory and modal playing soon, taking some of my favorite songs and analysing that stuff in depth. We don't see enough of it in metal guitar lessons.

They also use alot of cleans that make use of non standard chord patterns, so they don't always start at the I chord. Some mode changes come with a chord shift in scale. They use alot of suspended chords as well. Don't think of chords as names and patterns but attach a feel to it. 

Here are some random chords. I'm not going to tell you what chords are. First figure out what feel you can attach to these chords. Then arpegiate them to see what open strings sound good with these. Then break up each chord note for note. try to see which notes are flats or sharps and see which scale it fits with

-------0-------5--------5
-0-----0-------5--------6
-5-----12------5--------5
-7-----10------5--------8
-------12------8--------5
---------------5---------

Protip - inversions (Chords with the bass notes changed, e.g. C chord: C-E-G, inversions E-G-C, G-C-E)
sound better when you try suspended, add 6 chords, and 7th and 9th chords


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## djyngwie (Aug 30, 2012)

One thing Jonas does a lot, is having the vocal melodies rest on the major 2nd of the chords. It gives this suspended, bittersweet quality to the lines.

Awesome band, btw.


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## Francis978 (Sep 19, 2012)

trickae said:


> katatonia, dark tranquility and opeth use alot of nordic folk influences and layered guitar work. The interesting concept is their fantastic use of cleans that complement the metal.
> 
> The heavy riffage reminds me alot of edge of sanity, dan swano etc and their acoustic work reminds me of Mikael akerfeldt's mid career work.
> 
> ...




I like the chords you showed, especially the last two, they sound really full when I played them clean. 

So mainly combine different modes? Their metal side is do able in my mind, their cleans are what gets me, and I think you nudged me in the right direction 



Thank you for pointing out Jonas' vocal style, that actually helps me a lot...


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## tscoolberth (Sep 20, 2012)

I'm not a vocalist and my theory knowledge is minimal but it is interesting that Jonas was a drummer. He seems to pulse his words rythmically. Might be a good technique to try.

Also, there's some good interviews with them where they reveal what they listen to. They mentioned the name David Sylvian .. and all sorts of other non-metal stuff. Might be worth it to just take the mentality they take ... consider your self a metalist but listen to non-metal for inspiration.


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## Francis978 (Sep 23, 2012)

^That is a very good point, that is ESPECIALLY evident in songs such as The Promise of Deceit off of Night is the New Day

I am currently listening to Dead End Kings and am in love, I wonder what tuning they use...sounds kind of like C standard and Drop Bb, but I have been wrong before XD


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## ThePhilosopher (Sep 24, 2012)

I believe almost all of their tunes are in Dropped Bb.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Sep 24, 2012)

I think your ass just needs to be real real sad and cry'ee and shit. Then you'll hit the gothic metal status.


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## Francis978 (Sep 24, 2012)

So what your saying is I should buy a puppy, then ask someone to kick it?


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## trickae (Sep 25, 2012)

haha, 

Dead End Kings is an amazing album. If you want, ... and if I can find the time  i'll take a song like Dead letter or buildings or the racig heart and we'll break it up into the theory, the chords used etc.

an interesting note on the pulsing vocal style, for some parts of the songs the guitar is playing a standard chord progression but Jonas would choose the scale with his voice. 

Thisis very reminiscent of what Maynard James keenan did from Tool especially throughout Aenima and Lateralus. 

Learn their songs in the meantime, ask yourself what scale is it in, what key what mode, why are certain notes chosen etc.

Hopefully by then i can spare 30 mins in a week and write up that lesson


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## Francis978 (Sep 26, 2012)

Yeah we can go back and forth with the theory. I'll start learning great cold distance stuff and dead end kings as well


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## wankerness (Oct 5, 2012)

ThePhilosopher said:


> I believe almost all of their tunes are in Dropped Bb.



They sorta moved down the tuning scale through their discography, the earlier stuff is in Standard or Eb with the occasional drop Db (and some weird open Db tunings on Last Fair Deal Gone Down) and then Viva Emptiness they went down to C standard and on the subsequent albums they started doing a lot of drop Bb.

I would not be surprised if no one in either Katatonia or Opeth knows much of anything about theory, I really do think they pretty much just screw around and find some chord sounds they like and just sorta radiate what "sounds good" from there. The post by Trickae is really good.

That Novembre song is great, I tabbed it once a while back. They use a lot of odd chord arpeggios that are incredibly uncomfortable to play but I very rarely hear any other band try (probably for that reason). They have some other stuff that's really interesting in terms of tons of layers - I'd especially recommend "Come Pierrot" and "Everasia" off of Novembrine Waltz and "Iridescence" off The Blue.


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## Francis978 (Oct 20, 2012)

Yeah I've noticed they move down. In tuning, considering Dance of December souls was in E standard and now it seems like much of dead end kings, like dead letters, buildings, leech, and the parting all seem to be in Drop Bb
I could be wrong though. 
It also seems like they enjoy playing with interval choices like the minor second, minor 3rd,and other intervals that play with dissonance 

I really wanna learn the Lethean solo, it kicks ass but I can't learn well by ear in solos.


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