# Removing crosses on a Loomis?



## ncfiala (May 13, 2014)

Anyone ever get rid of the ugly crosses on a Loomis? They look painted on and not inlayed so could I just carefully sand the clear and crosses off (without removing the frets)?


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## Nile (May 13, 2014)

The only real problem is getting it sanded smooth/removing the marks afterwards with the frets still on. I believe there are methods like I've heard of using a razor blade gets rid of the scratches. You'll have to research it but sanding with frets still on is the easy part.


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## Surveyor 777 (May 13, 2014)

Are you sure they're painted on? I don't have a Loomis (yet) so I can't actually look at one, but I remember a thread a while back where people were having issues with dimples in the fretboard right next to the inlay. One person that responded said it may have been caused by the router (for the inlays) being misplaced. Also, in one of the pictures it looked like there was filler around parts of the inlays.

But like I said, I've never actually seen one in person so I can't say. Just seems weird that any guitar of that caliber would not use an actual inlay.


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## ElysianGuitars (May 13, 2014)

ncfiala said:


> Anyone ever get rid of the ugly crosses on a Loomis? They look painted on and not inlayed so could I just carefully sand the clear and crosses off (without removing the frets)?



Looking at closeups of them, they look like water slide decal to me. The question is, how much finish is over them in order to bury them smoothly? It's going to be a lot, and then you also have to sand through the water slide decal, and you have to reapply finish. You wouldn't be doing this job without removing the frets. This is the image I'm using for reference:







If you zoom in you can see the outline of the water slide decal.


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## JustMac (May 13, 2014)

I was wondering this too, such a shame Jeff need the arbitrary tackiness for "teh m3talz" factor. Its his sig though, and that's cool and all, just a bit of a bummer.


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## Pikka Bird (May 13, 2014)

^I think those outlines are the rout, and the yellow stuff within the outline is colour-matched filler. Hard to tell for sure, but usually waterslide decals don't cover up grain lines in the way it looks here.


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## ElysianGuitars (May 13, 2014)

Pikka Bird said:


> ^I think those outlines are the rout, and the yellow stuff within the outline is colour-matched filler. Hard to tell for sure, but usually waterslide decals don't cover up grain lines in the way it looks here.



There are grain lines showing through in other places. The only spot I see that looks off is inside one of the curved parts on the upper left side of the decal, and that looks like a finish lift (or perhaps decal lift). If there's a filler that matches maple so well, I've not heard of it or been able to find it. That's most certainly a decal.


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## Pikka Bird (May 13, 2014)

^I do hope you're right, and that someone has the gall to put a tool to his fretboard to test it out. If it is indeed a decal then these Loomis sigs are suddenly not so unappealing to me. (Like I need any more GAS).


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## cardinal (May 13, 2014)

It'd be great if those were decals, but I agree with Pikka Bird that it's probably an inlay with filler. But wouldn't that be great if it was a thin decal. Still not super easy to remove, but definitely feasible.


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## ncfiala (May 13, 2014)

Come on dudes, somebody do it. I don't want to be the first and screw up this guitar. But I guess without definitive info about whether it's paint, decal, or inlay, it's probably too risky.


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## broj15 (May 13, 2014)

ncfiala said:


> Come on dudes, somebody do it. I don't want to be the first and screw up this guitar. But I guess without definitive info about whether it's paint, decal, or inlay, it's probably too risky.



honestly, if you really wanna try it i would just poke around the corners on somewhere inconspicuous like the 24th fret and see what happens. If it seems like it will work all across the neck then go for it. If not, no big deal. Who's going to scrutinize the 24th fret anyways.


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## ElysianGuitars (May 14, 2014)

This is what inlay in maple looks like, which looks very different from the Loomis "inlays." It's much more cost effective for Schecter to do water slide decal instead of inlay anyways, means no botched inlays, much simpler quality control, and much less manual labor. I'm about 99.9% sure the Loomis "inlays" are just decals under the finish. Unless I've missed out on major innovation, there's not a filler around that properly emulates maple... Tight routes are the best way to do inlay on maple.


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## M3CHK1LLA (May 14, 2014)

is it bolt-on?

if so, just buy another (better) neck.


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## Hollowway (May 14, 2014)

Yeah, I'd say you're better off removing the whole Loomis. I just envision you making a train wreck out of the neck. No offense meant by that, but there are people who will buy it as is, and then you can get what you want, and not risk it.


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## esp_eraser (May 14, 2014)

M3CHK1LLA said:


> is it bolt-on?
> 
> if so, just buy another (better) neck.



Good idea
But without checking I suspect its neck through or set neck.
Just a suggestion if you want to spend some dough and make it custom like, have the fretboard removed and replace with flame maple or ebony etc and leave the inlaysout completely.


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## Deadnightshade (May 14, 2014)

M3CHK1LLA said:


> is it bolt-on?
> 
> if so, just buy another (better) neck.





esp_eraser said:


> Good idea
> But without checking I suspect its neck through or set neck.
> Just a suggestion if you want to spend some dough and make it custom like, have the fretboard removed and replace with flame maple or ebony etc and leave the inlaysout completely.





Hollowway said:


> Yeah, I'd say you're better off removing the whole Loomis. I just envision you making a train wreck out of the neck. No offense meant by that, but there are people who will buy it as is, and then you can get what you want, and not risk it.



Removing fretboards, set necks or neck throughs etc is rather costly, and I'd steer you away from it.

Yes, if they are decals you may get away with just sanding. Better ask Schecter to be sure.

The only other cheap solution I have for you is get block inlays from this guy Inlay Stickers Decals For Guitar and Bass, Ukulele... Removable Type , and ask him to custom tailor them for your scale length and fretwire, so that they cover the full width of the crosses.

If you can't live with the aesthetics, then listen to Hollowway and get something else.


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## HaloHat (May 14, 2014)

They are inlays, not decals. This is per Schecter who I emailed about a year ago as I was making my Loomis into a Frankin Loomis. I was going to remove the inlays if decals and stain the maple board. 

Per Schecter, they are inlays. Not decals.


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## hairychris (May 14, 2014)

^ Not surprised. Schecter inlay their other guitars so a plastic w/filler inlay on the Loomis sounds right.


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## 77zark77 (May 14, 2014)

Just scallop the fretboard


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## Surveyor 777 (May 14, 2014)

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

I know everybody has an opinion - my opinion is they aren't ugly. They are different, that's for sure. They're an acquired taste. But for me they aren't ugly.

Loomis is a set-neck. I don't know how expensive replacing just the fretboard is, but that seems like a possible option.


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## ElysianGuitars (May 14, 2014)

HaloHat said:


> They are inlays, not decals. This is per Schecter who I emailed about a year ago as I was making my Loomis into a Frankin Loomis. I was going to remove the inlays if decals and stain the maple board.
> 
> Per Schecter, they are inlays. Not decals.



Schecter customer service knows everything about the build process? And frankly, would admit to them being decals if they were?


Eh, it's not important. One day someone will find out for sure, just hasn't happened yet.


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## Trainwreck1446 (May 14, 2014)

Always hated those cheesy inlays.


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## Der JD (May 14, 2014)

I just got a new Loomis and must be in the minority when I say that I really like the cross inlays! Oh well, to each their own. I think it would be a boring looking guitar without them.


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## HaloHat (May 14, 2014)

ElysianGuitars said:


> Schecter customer service knows everything about the build process? And frankly, would admit to them being decals if they were?
> 
> 
> Eh, it's not important. One day someone will find out for sure, just hasn't happened yet.



The OP didn't ask about everything, they asked about inlays. And yes Schecter would say they were decals if they were. 

Schecther gave me some of the best customer service I have ever asked for [and I only asked them once, on my first Loomis which had the weird radius fret boards on some of the very first Loomis sigs where the low B and high E would slip off the side of the board if you barely gave the string any wiggle at all.] Schecter customer service had a new Loomis set up by their custom shop at my house the next day. I didn't even have the RMA# email from them to return the first guitar yet. Schecter has outstanding customer service in my experience. I'm sure they are not perfect, like anyone, however they did me right far beyond what I expected. FWIW Guitarland DrumCity also followed up to make sure all was well. Also great customer service [despite having nothing to do with the inlay subject.]

But just to make you happy, I just tried to "peel" an inlay off my Loomis with a razor blade [i am eventually going to replace the maple board with Bloodwood or Ebony] at the 24th fret of a first year Loomis.

IT IS AN INLAY - HELLO

You must be thinking of how you answers your companies emails or how you build guitars [you asked for it, what do you have against Schecter to say something like that?, geez!]

I like the inlays too. I am so tired of dots and blocks ha. Honestly I like no inlays best [side markers only] but the Loomis inlays I would take over dots or blocks any day.


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## AwDeOh (May 14, 2014)

ncfiala said:


> Come on dudes, somebody do it. I don't want to be the first and screw up this guitar. But I guess without definitive info about whether it's paint, decal, or inlay, it's probably too risky.



Send it to me, dude. I'll be the first one to screw up your guitar


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## Surveyor 777 (May 14, 2014)

HaloHat said:


> The OP didn't ask about everything, they asked about inlays. And yes Schecter would say they were decals if they were.
> 
> But just to make you happy, I just tried to "peel" an inlay off my Loomis with a razor blade [i am eventually going to replace the maple board with Bloodwood or Ebony] at the 24th fret of a first year Loomis.
> 
> ...



Not to get too far off-topic, but are you replacing the board yourself or getting someone to do it? I know you're pretty handy w/guitars (I still love how you stripped yours and re-stained it) so just wondering.


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## SpaceDock (May 14, 2014)

I would bet they are decals, they sure look like it to me. The clear run around them is the obvious tell tale sign. Looks like around a Fender headstock decal. I would be super surprised if they have a cnc with tiny ass bits carving the routes for that "inlay" and another machine cutting all of the little pieces and then a team to put them in, fill it, and sand flat for a 999 dollar guitar. It doesn't add up.


Tldr decal bro


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## Surveyor 777 (May 14, 2014)

SpaceDock said:


> I would bet they are decals, they sure look like it to me. The clear run around them is the obvious tell tale sign. Looks like around a Fender headstock decal. I would be super surprised if they have a cnc with tiny ass bits carving the routes for that "inlay" and another machine cutting all of the little pieces and then a team to put them in, fill it, and sand flat for a 999 dollar guitar. It doesn't add up.
> 
> 
> Tldr decal bro



But aren't Hellraisers at that same price point? Don't they have abalone inlays? I would assume they have a CNC router cutting in the "holes", then having pre-cut pieces of abalone that they put in with filler to fill up the slop.

As far as I know HaloHat already answered this question - he said it's an inlay.

I can see the argument about the sticker. From the picture Elysian posted you could make that argument. But to me it still looks like the grain disappears in spots around the cross. Also when people complained about dimples right next to their Loomis crosses & somebody said it could have been from sloppy router placement & the dimple didn't get filled.

As I said before I still don't have an actual Loomis so I have no definite proof - just my gut feeling. If a Hellraiser at the same price point has inlays, why not the Loomis?


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## ElysianGuitars (May 15, 2014)

HaloHat said:


> The OP didn't ask about everything, they asked about inlays. And yes Schecter would say they were decals if they were.
> 
> Schecther gave me some of the best customer service I have ever asked for [and I only asked them once, on my first Loomis which had the weird radius fret boards on some of the very first Loomis sigs where the low B and high E would slip off the side of the board if you barely gave the string any wiggle at all.] Schecter customer service had a new Loomis set up by their custom shop at my house the next day. I didn't even have the RMA# email from them to return the first guitar yet. Schecter has outstanding customer service in my experience. I'm sure they are not perfect, like anyone, however they did me right far beyond what I expected. FWIW Guitarland DrumCity also followed up to make sure all was well. Also great customer service [despite having nothing to do with the inlay subject.]
> 
> ...


Until someone proves otherwise, it shows all the signs of being a decal. You can insult my company all you want, I know what a decal looks like, and I know how maple looks with inlay. I'm sure next you're going to try and question my experience, go for it. I've not said anything offensive in this thread, and laid out my argument quite well, so your heightened tone is not appreciated.


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## ElysianGuitars (May 15, 2014)

Surveyor 777 said:


> But aren't Hellraisers at that same price point? Don't they have abalone inlays? I would assume they have a CNC router cutting in the "holes", then having pre-cut pieces of abalone that they put in with filler to fill up the slop.
> 
> As far as I know HaloHat already answered this question - he said it's an inlay.
> 
> ...


Because decals are cheaper, easier to apply, and easier for mass production. They reduce the amount of routing, reduce the material used, and reduce the amount of labor to install, which is always a good thing in a mass production environment. They even make QC easier. There's nothing wrong with that either, decals or inlay make no difference to the way the guitar looks or sounds.


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## ElysianGuitars (May 15, 2014)

SpaceDock said:


> I would bet they are decals, they sure look like it to me. The clear run around them is the obvious tell tale sign. Looks like around a Fender headstock decal. I would be super surprised if they have a cnc with tiny ass bits carving the routes for that "inlay" and another machine cutting all of the little pieces and then a team to put them in, fill it, and sand flat for a 999 dollar guitar. It doesn't add up.
> 
> 
> Tldr decal bro



Even if they had "tiny ass bits," there would still be telltale signs it was routed, like that PRS inlay I posted above. On every sharp point of that PRS inlay there's actually a small round route because routers can't route sharp points.


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## Surveyor 777 (May 15, 2014)

ElysianGuitars said:


> Because decals are cheaper, easier to apply, and easier for mass production. They reduce the amount of routing, reduce the material used, and reduce the amount of labor to install, which is always a good thing in a mass production environment. They even make QC easier. There's nothing wrong with that either, decals or inlay make no difference to the way the guitar looks or sounds.



Yep, I get the thing with them being cheaper & easier to apply. I would think it's kinda hard to screw up a sticker, whereas you could oversize the recess for the inlay & have to use a pile of filler to make up the excess space (& that wouldn't look too good).

I'm just hoping in this case that you aren't correct. Why? Because I'm buying a Loomis this year & having a sticker on it rather than the actual inlay just makes it feel "cheap" to me & is really depressing.


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## downburst82 (May 15, 2014)

> Even if they had "tiny ass bits," there would still be telltale signs it was routed, like that PRS inlay I posted above. On every sharp point of that PRS inlay there's actually a small round route because routers can't route sharp points.



Another picture, it kinda looks to me like all the "sharp" points are rounded on the loomis as well?

I'm learning towards inlays myself


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## SpaceDock (May 15, 2014)

We need to settle it..... I'll paypal someone $5 to attack one of their Loomis inlays with a razor.  DO IT!


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## cardinal (May 15, 2014)

Here's a close up of the "inlay" on an Ibanez RG770DX. It has similar filler-looking outlines as the Schecter. Discuss.


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## downburst82 (May 15, 2014)

SpaceDock said:


> We need to settle it..... I'll paypal someone $5 to attack one of their Loomis inlays with a razor.  DO IT!



I will add $5!!! come on people, the pot is up to $10 to mutilate your loomis in the name of science!!

ps: and take pictures obviously!


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## sehnomatic (May 15, 2014)

cardinal said:


> Here's a close up of the "inlay" on an Ibanez RG770DX. It has similar filler-looking outlines as the Schecter. Discuss.



90's 770 or 2008 reissue? Either way: oh god, 1/16" bit free handing.

Back on topic: I say decal. 

The the only way to get inlays as clean and sharp as that is to go the Daemoness-esque carve and filler technique. That technique is time consuming as all hell and schecter sure as hell won't spend the time and money on that.

Simple economics: It's pretty damn worth it to decal.

Also the world music factory, the company which manufacturers ltd deluxe, ltd artist, PRS se and of course korean schecters is crazy about decals.


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## Nile (May 16, 2014)

cardinal said:


> Here's a close up of the "inlay" on an Ibanez RG770DX. It has similar filler-looking outlines as the Schecter. Discuss.



That is a shitty route.


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## ElysianGuitars (May 16, 2014)

cardinal said:


> Here's a close up of the "inlay" on an Ibanez RG770DX. It has similar filler-looking outlines as the Schecter. Discuss.



Doesn't look anything like the 'filler' effect you guys think the Schecter has. Just proves even more that there is no filler that matches maple so well. The most recent Loomis pic even looks to catch some light off the decal where people are thinking it's filler.


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## Konfyouzd (May 16, 2014)

So wait... Have we gotten to the point of discussing how to remove a decal yet or are we still arguing over whether or not it is one? If there's a method for removing a decal besides a razor that won't do any significant damage to the board, try it. If it's still there, it's either an amazing decal or not a decal...?


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## ncfiala (May 16, 2014)

Well I guess my post sparked quite a debate. Until I know for sure that they are decals, I'm not gonna risk it. It's not like I dislike the guitar. I've had it for a couple years and I'm not getting rid of it. It would just look so much better without the crosses. I hate those damn crosses. It wouldn't be so bad if they didn't have those fleur-de-lis things at the ends. I've gotten so I can't stand that symbol. I see them everywhere. From bedazzled designer jeans to bedazzled trucker hats to bedazzled affliction shirts. I have no idea what it means and I'm sure the people wearing them have no idea either.


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## Surveyor 777 (May 16, 2014)

I'm still not convinced it's a decal (or maybe I'm living in denial).

ANYWAY, I do have a question (or questions). Is the Loomis fretboard finished? Meaning does it have some sort of satin or gloss finish on it - I assume it isn't untreated wood. 

Now if it was a decal it would have "some" thickness, wouldn't it? Granted it might be very thin but it would stick out on top of the fretboard, right?

But if it would be an inlay, wouldn't it be installed & then the entire fretboard sanded so everything was smooth & at the same elevation or profile before the satin/gloss finish applied?

So if it was a decal - it would be applied to the fretboard, then the finish sprayed over the top, right?

So would it be possible to carefully run your fingernail along the fretboard, moving toward the inlay/decal, and if you feel a "bump", then it's a good chance it's a decal?

Or am I just a dope?


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## Konfyouzd (May 16, 2014)

Watermark decals I don't think would be visibly that thick. Not w a human eye.


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## Konfyouzd (May 16, 2014)

I don't think you'd feel it either.


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## ncfiala (May 16, 2014)

I decided to look at mine closely and mine are obviously inlayed. You can see the different colored filler at some of the sharp points.


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## ElysianGuitars (May 16, 2014)

ncfiala said:


> I decided to look at mine closely and mine are obviously inlayed. You can see the different colored filler at some of the sharp points.



Routers can't route points that sharp. There's one particular one that stands out. If looking at it like a compass it's the bottom most curly point on the East arm. It's too sharp to be routed there, and you can actually see a line there, where if it were a route that line wouldn't remain, it's tiny. I'm now up to 99.9999999999999% certain it's a decal. The grain disappearing could easily be explained by a 2 tone decal.


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## ElysianGuitars (May 16, 2014)

Konfyouzd said:


> I don't think you'd feel it either.



Nope. A properly done decal cannot be felt.


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## MetalDaze (May 16, 2014)

I think it's an inlay


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## rick_fears (May 16, 2014)

Thought I remembered reading somewhere the older ones were decals. Don't quote me on that though. Call schecter customer service.


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## ECGuitars (May 17, 2014)

ElysianGuitars said:


> Routers can't route points that sharp. There's one particular one that stands out. If looking at it like a compass it's the bottom most curly point on the East arm. It's too sharp to be routed there, and you can actually see a line there, where if it were a route that line wouldn't remain, it's tiny. I'm now up to 99.9999999999999% certain it's a decal. The grain disappearing could easily be explained by a 2 tone decal.



Gonna have to back Elysian up, myself as a red sealed woodworker with real experience with these things a router CANNOT route recessing that sharp or tight as the ones that are on those inlays. I'm certain its a decal, there is clearly a finish on that fretboard which would build up so you cannot feel the edges of the decal. Further more, getting a filler to color match maple that closely is god damned impossible.


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## M3CHK1LLA (May 17, 2014)

the op needs to add a poll to this thread...

1. inlay

2. decal

3. combo

then when we find out what it really is, we'll know who was right or wrong


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## Insinfier (May 17, 2014)

Someone should compensate me with a neat chorus pedal in the mail and I'll scrape at the smallest inlay on my Loomis with a razor blade.


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## Eliguy666 (May 17, 2014)

Somebody should just scrape at the inlay. If it does work, neat. If it doesn't, replace the board and make a fretless version. Win/win.


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## downburst82 (May 17, 2014)

HaloHat said:


> The OP didn't ask about everything, they asked about inlays. And yes Schecter would say they were decals if they were.
> 
> Schecther gave me some of the best customer service I have ever asked for [and I only asked them once, on my first Loomis which had the weird radius fret boards on some of the very first Loomis sigs where the low B and high E would slip off the side of the board if you barely gave the string any wiggle at all.] Schecter customer service had a new Loomis set up by their custom shop at my house the next day. I didn't even have the RMA# email from them to return the first guitar yet. Schecter has outstanding customer service in my experience. I'm sure they are not perfect, like anyone, however they did me right far beyond what I expected. FWIW Guitarland DrumCity also followed up to make sure all was well. Also great customer service [despite having nothing to do with the inlay subject.]
> 
> ...




Forgot about this, Pictures?


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## MJS (May 17, 2014)

I prepared this generic form letter for anyone that requires Schecter's assistance in the near future. 

Dear Schecter Warranty Department, 

I was gently playing my Loomis the other day and noticed that it looks like someone took a belt sander to the fretboard and tried to scrape off the decal with a hammer pry out an inlay with a dull crowbar. That must have happened at the factory, so please send a new guitar to the address below, no questions asked.

Thanks, 

[your name here]
[your address here]


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## mnemonic (May 17, 2014)

I think the best way to test (though quite invasive) would be if someone was due for a re-fret. Defret it, sand off the fretboard finish with a radius block, and see i the inlays come off with the finish. Then refinish/refret. 

I think that would provide the cleanest result, trying to get the inlays out with the frets still on is going to result in scratched frets, and partial inlays/decals right around the edge of the frets. 



Eliguy666 said:


> Somebody should just scrape at the inlay. If it does work, neat. If it doesn't, replace the board and make a fretless version. Win/win.



Remember its gonna have a poly finish over it which may be quite thick.


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## immortalx (May 17, 2014)

Whatever they are, it seems they are doing a hell of a good job, having all of us wondering 
Even if they are just decals, it's no easy job to line them up properly. No one can maybe notice a misplaced headstock decal, but in-between frets it would be too obvious.


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## ElysianGuitars (May 17, 2014)

If the finish is sufficiently thick you're not just going to get at one with a razor. It would take sanding down to it before you could hit it with a razor. Finished on import guitars are usually 15mil+ thick, where the decal may be 2-3mil.


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## Khaerruhl (May 17, 2014)

Im hoping you don't mean mm by mil. 15 mm finish on a guitar neck is preposterous!

The older Loomis Schecters had a tinted finish on them, even on the fretboard, hence why they're yellow instead of a more natural wood color. What's stopping Schecter from routing up a bigger hole than what's necessary, insert inlay, and then fill the cavity up with filler tinted the very same way as the rest of the neck?


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## sehnomatic (May 17, 2014)

Khaerruhl said:


> Im hoping you don't mean mm by mil. 15 mm finish on a guitar neck is preposterous!
> 
> The older Loomis Schecters had a tinted finish on them, even on the fretboard, hence why they're yellow instead of a more natural wood color. What's stopping Schecter from routing up a bigger hole than what's necessary, insert inlay, and then fill the cavity up with filler tinted the very same way as the rest of the neck?



1 mil = 1/1000 inch.


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## ElysianGuitars (May 17, 2014)

Khaerruhl said:


> Im hoping you don't mean mm by mil. 15 mm finish on a guitar neck is preposterous!
> 
> The older Loomis Schecters had a tinted finish on them, even on the fretboard, hence why they're yellow instead of a more natural wood color. What's stopping Schecter from routing up a bigger hole than what's necessary, insert inlay, and then fill the cavity up with filler tinted the very same way as the rest of the neck?



1mil = .001"

What's stopping them? The fact there's no filler around that matches maple. It really is one of the hardest woods to match with filler, making it one of the hardest woods to inlay. If it were that easy then that Ibanez posted previously would look great, not junky.


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## Pikka Bird (May 17, 2014)

There's one thing that makes me doubt it's a waterslide- usually with waterslide decals buried in a thick clearcoat you can't actually see the decal outline at all unless you _really_ try to.

And for the record, you can get router bits fine enough to do fret slots, so the sharpest points of this whatever-that-outline-is are within the realm of possibility.


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## ElysianGuitars (May 17, 2014)

Pikka Bird said:


> There's one thing that makes me doubt it's a waterslide- usually with waterslide decals buried in a thick clearcoat you can't actually see the decal outline at all unless you _really_ try to.
> 
> And for the record, you can get router bits fine enough to do fret slots, so the sharpest points of this whatever-that-outline-is are within the realm of possibility.



If it's a decal with a colored backing (like the white decal you can buy at the hobby store) then you'll certainly see the outline, since it doesn't exactly match the maple.

If we're worried about the record, then those bits would be breaking all the time inlaying in maple, making the inlay on this non-expensive guitar extremely costly. The sharpest point on that decal is not within the realm of possibility. Hell, I posted a high end PRS inlay that didn't even have that sharp of points, why would Schecter do that on a much cheaper guitar?


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## Pikka Bird (May 17, 2014)

ElysianGuitars said:


> If it's a decal with a colored backing (like the white decal you can buy at the hobby store) then you'll certainly see the outline, since it doesn't exactly match the maple.


But why would they use that? I've never seen anybody else in the guitar world do it.



ElysianGuitars said:


> If we're worried about the record, then those bits would be breaking all the time inlaying in maple, making the inlay on this non-expensive guitar extremely costly. The sharpest point on that decal is not within the realm of possibility. Hell, I posted a high end PRS inlay that didn't even have that sharp of points, why would Schecter do that on a much cheaper guitar?


It's not the points on the decal/inlay I'm talking about, it's just that visible outline. That's not really very sharp at all. Another thing- if it was a decal then why is it not printed perfectly? Many of the gaps in the fleur de lis ends are a little bit wonky, like they've been cut with a thin-kerfed saw, but a print could have been made totally crisp and straight.

I'm not 100% on any side here, I just don't see a bombproof argument for either option.


----------



## ElysianGuitars (May 17, 2014)

Pikka Bird said:


> But why would they use that? I've never seen anybody else in the guitar world do it.
> 
> 
> It's not the points on the decal/inlay I'm talking about, it's just that visible outline. That's not really very sharp at all. Another thing- if it was a decal then why is it not printed perfectly? Many of the gaps in the fleur de lis ends are a little bit wonky, like they've been cut with a thin-kerfed saw, but a print could have been made totally crisp and straight.
> ...


If you have to build a guitar at a certain price point, why wouldn't you do it? Companies use decals on maple all the time, it's not uncommon. It makes sense from a financial stand point... Also, you're trying to tell me that Schecter has figured out how to do intricate inlay better than top end PRS guitars, on a budget model?


----------



## rick_fears (May 17, 2014)

The "filler" around the inlays look like the clear edges of the decal to me


----------



## ECGuitars (May 18, 2014)

rick_fears said:


> The "filler" around the inlays look like the clear edges of the decal to me



Exactly


----------



## MJS (May 18, 2014)

No idea which it is and I don't have a Loomis to look at, but this post is from an old thread here where someone was asking about how to route sharp corners... and someone used this Loomis pic to explain the routes are big and you can see the filler where the round bit did the cutting: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/2743352-post11.html 

Here's the picture from the post: 







I don't see any grain around the edges of the cross, even though you can clearly see it on the rest of the fretboard. I would think it would be easy enough to tell in person... if it's a clear decal edge, you'd see the grain through it.

I can't imagine that Schecter would call decals inlays, though.


----------



## ECGuitars (May 18, 2014)

MJS said:


> No idea which it is and I don't have a Loomis to look at, but this post is from an old thread here where someone was asking about how to route sharp corners... and someone used this Loomis pic to explain the routes are big and you can see the filler where the round bit did the cutting: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/2743352-post11.html
> 
> Here's the picture from the post:
> 
> ...



See that pic actually looks like its routed out the far right point looks like the outside diameter of the bit! The other pics everything looked far to sharp to be a router bit.


----------



## MJS (May 18, 2014)

ECGuitars said:


> See that pic actually looks like its routed out the far right point looks like the outside diameter of the bit! The other pics everything looked far to sharp to be a router bit.



It might just be my mind/eyes playing tricks on me, but I'd swear that now that I clearly see it in that pic, that I can also see it in this pic from page 2... just not as well because of the angle/lighting: 






If it's an inlay, I'd say they did a pretty good job matching the filler if it has people thinking it's a decal.


----------



## ElysianGuitars (May 18, 2014)

MJS said:


> No idea which it is and I don't have a Loomis to look at, but this post is from an old thread here where someone was asking about how to route sharp corners... and someone used this Loomis pic to explain the routes are big and you can see the filler where the round bit did the cutting: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/2743352-post11.html
> 
> Here's the picture from the post:
> 
> ...



It doesn't have to be a clear decal. It can be a colored decal, and this looks more like a decal than anything in this thread. The light clearly illuminates the edges that are facing towards the light source, while the edges away from the light source have shadow. If they've got a filler that matched maple that well I want to know what it is, because I have yet to find it!

Anyways, I've said my piece. If I ever work on a Loomis I'll be sure to update this thread.


----------



## sehnomatic (May 18, 2014)

@MJS, thanks, i needed a picture like this to prove that it's a decal.





If it were inlaid, there would be not filler at these kinds of places, even a 1/16" cnc bit easily cuts these areas perfectly, no need for filler. 

To the argument of "how come the hellraiser has inlays" 
It's because you can get away with decals on a maple fretboard because you'd need to lay down clear coat anyways.


----------



## InfinityCollision (May 18, 2014)

The thing that has me thinking it could be an inlay is that there's a noticeable region with no wood grain in the area immediately surrounding the black portion of the fretboard marker. This is true in every single Loomis picture I've seen posted in this thread. The color is completely uniform within that region.

Why they'd do it like that I don't know (cheaper bits? speed?), but that's what it looks like to me.


----------



## SpaceDock (May 18, 2014)

InfinityCollision said:


> there's a noticeable region with no wood grain in the area immediately surrounding the black portion of the fretboard marker.The color is completely uniform within that region.



That's because the decal is "maple" colored not clear, then it has black print on it. That seems like the most likely circumstance.


----------



## InfinityCollision (May 18, 2014)

That's certainly a reasonable possibility, not sure why I didn't think of that. Why they'd color it like that I don't know, but that seems to be a common trend in this thread


----------



## Prophetable (May 19, 2014)

Am I missing something obvious here? Why does the inlay/waterslide have it's own grain that is different (tighter) than the maple? Wouldn't that indicate that it's an inlay?


----------



## Jzbass25 (May 19, 2014)

If schecter said they were inlays I imagine they'd be inlays.


----------



## Pikka Bird (May 19, 2014)

ElysianGuitars said:


> If you have to build a guitar at a certain price point, why wouldn't you do it? Companies use decals on maple all the time, it's not uncommon.



What I was getting at was- why use a non-clear decal instead of one that becomes all but invisible under a clearcoat?


----------



## M3CHK1LLA (May 19, 2014)

at the 46 sec mark it has the specs...inlays.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEKb4O-G2f0


----------



## Pikka Bird (May 19, 2014)

M3CHK1LLA said:


> at the 46 sec mark it has the specs...inlays.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEKb4O-G2f0



To be completely fair, that doesn't really mean too much, kinda like when the cheapest low end guitars are advertised as having "tops". Sometimes those words mean what we expect them to, other times it's just balonium.


----------



## M3CHK1LLA (May 19, 2014)

with abalone inlay...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6ZVou9eYnU


----------



## MJS (May 19, 2014)

Some pictures make it hard to tell, but when I look at this picture, I kinda think they might be inlays...


----------



## SpaceDock (May 19, 2014)

I still think someone should sacrifice their Loomis to the cause


----------



## cardinal (May 19, 2014)

We should start a fund and just chip into it over time. Eventually, it'll get large enough such that someone will want to claim it bad enough to hack at their Loomis to find out.


----------



## cip 123 (May 19, 2014)

So do we need to find a huge malmesteen and loomis fan?


----------



## Surveyor 777 (May 19, 2014)

What am I missing here? Way back in this thread HaloHat said he took a razor blade to his Loomis & tried to scrape off the supposed decal. After doing this & it not coming off, it was apparent to him it was not a decal but in fact an inlay.

Since he actually had a Loomis in his possession & performed the act that so many of you want done, why are people not believing him?

What am I missing here?


----------



## Pikka Bird (May 19, 2014)

Surveyor 777 said:


> What am I missing here? Way back in this thread HaloHat said he took a razor blade to his Loomis & tried to scrape off the supposed decal. After doing this & it not coming off, it was apparent to him it was not a decal but in fact an inlay.
> 
> Since he actually had a Loomis in his possession & performed the act that so many of you want done, why are people not believing him?
> 
> What am I missing here?



Maybe it's the "pics (video) or it didn't happen" factor.


----------



## Surveyor 777 (May 19, 2014)

Pikka Bird said:


> Maybe it's the "pics (video) or it didn't happen" factor.



Yes, I can understand that. I still have to believe that they are inlays until somebody gives me 100% proof that they aren't. Sort of the "innocent until proven guilty" sort of thing.

To all the people saying they're decals - I understand your point. I could imagine a black "metal cross" image on the decal material, with a small border all the way around it. I can see how some pictures look just like that.

I don't know how small of a bit can be used for this type of detail/inlay work - I have 0% experience with this. But the few close-up pics that I've seen - at the absolute points of the cross, the decal/inlay cut-out/whatever is rounded. So to me that means it is possible that a cutting bit is used, because it would be a round bit cutting into the wood. I know nothing about these "waterslide decals" - are they basically a fancy sticker? So what would be the benefit of having rounded ends at the "points" of the crosses as opposed to the decal being pointed, just like the cross itself? It's a serious question - I'm not trying to start an argument.

So for me , Schecter calling it an inlay is good enough. They are "innocent until proven guilty" to me.


----------



## Explorer (May 20, 2014)

I like that even the OP came down on the side of inlay, along with HaloHat and Schecter, and that people are still arguing. 

This is the best and most unexpected conspiracy theory I've heard in a long time. *laugh*

Carry on, and don't forget to put on your tinfoil hats to avoid Schecter's mind control propaganda!


----------



## MJS (May 20, 2014)

Next up: Daemoness. Clearly all decals!


----------



## MJS (May 20, 2014)

Imagine being dumb enough to take my last sarcastic reply about an amazing artist/inlay god as a neg-rep-worthy serious insult.


----------



## Eliguy666 (May 20, 2014)

MJS said:


> Imagine being dumb enough to take my last sarcastic reply about an amazing artist/inlay god as a neg-rep-worthy serious insult.



Actually, I negative repped you because you were actively making the forum a worse place by being condescending and dismissive 

My opinion isn't improved by that, either, really.

Back on topic: If they are inlays, they're low quality enough that they look like decals.


----------



## Jzbass25 (May 20, 2014)

Eliguy666 said:


> Actually, I negative repped you because you were actively making the forum a worse place by being condescending and dismissive
> 
> My opinion isn't improved by that, either, really.
> 
> Back on topic: If they are inlays, they're low quality enough that they look like decals.



It was a joke dude... I'd say bad attitudes make forums worse places, more-so than sarcastic comments


----------



## MJS (May 20, 2014)

Eliguy666 said:


> Actually, I negative repped you because you were actively making the forum a worse place by being condescending and dismissive
> 
> My opinion isn't improved by that, either, really.
> 
> Back on topic: If they are inlays, they're low quality enough that they look like decals.



No, you did it because your sarcasm detector is broken. Have you not seen a Daemoness? 

There's nothing condescending and dismissive about an obvious joke... * in a thread dedicated to accusing a company of using decals and calling them inlays. * Too funny! 



Edit: Neg rep means nothing to most people, including me.  The point was just that it was funny that anyone could have mistaken a negative comment about Dylan's inlay skills as serious.


----------



## SpaceDock (May 20, 2014)

Pikka Bird said:


> Maybe it's the "pics (video) or it didn't happen" factor.



or maybe we just want someone to destroy their guitar for our amusement


----------



## Eliguy666 (May 20, 2014)

MJS said:


> No, you did it because your sarcasm detector is broken. Have you not seen a Daemoness?
> 
> There's nothing condescending and dismissive about an obvious joke... * in a thread dedicated to accusing a company of using decals and calling them inlays. * Too funny!
> 
> ...



I am totally familiar with Dylan's inlay work, it's impossible not to me. I just object to you guy being condescending to other people in the thread.

But can we please stop posting in this guy's thread when we're not helping him? Just send me a pm or something if you want to continue this.

OT: I'm still thinking that, if they are inlays, they're not a conventional design. Or maybe the logo was just made without the idea of it being an inlay in mind, because it needs way too much filler(?).


----------



## Explorer (May 20, 2014)

I like how dismissive people have been of Schecter's honesty, and yet commenting on that assertion of Schecter's dishonesty, even in a humorous way, is considered negative.

I find that absurd. Can you explain that so it makes sense?


----------



## Eliguy666 (May 20, 2014)

Explorer said:


> I like how dismissive people have been of Schecter's honesty, and yet commenting on that assertion of Schecter's dishonesty, even in a humorous way, is considered negative.
> 
> I find that absurd. Can you explain that so it makes sense?



That wasn't really a "comment" as much as a straw man argument.

Anyways, I've got pizza to eat and Gamegrumps to watch, so peace 

Edit: Realized I didn't really answer the question, I just think it's wrong to be condescending to other people when they've been civil.


----------



## MJS (May 20, 2014)

Eliguy666 said:


> I just object to you guy being condescending to other people in the thread.
> 
> But can we please stop posting in this guy's thread when we're not helping him?



By condescending and not helping, are you referring to the joke that was painfully obvious to everyone but you, or the part where I took the time to go get the information straight from the horse's mouth and post it here? Condescending must not mean what you think it does.  



Eliguy666 said:


> OT: I'm still thinking that,* if* they are inlays, they're not a conventional design. Or maybe the logo was just made without the idea of it being an inlay in mind, because it needs way too much filler(?).



*If* they're inlays?  

Yeah, too bad no one has cleared up whether or not they're inlays yet.  

Too much filler? I don't see how that's an issue when it looks so good that people think it must be a decal. 

My guess would be they figured it out to where they never have to worry about trim-to-fit issues and have enough space to always have an even border... a great way to put a fancy inlay on a guitar that isn't $4,000.


----------



## Eliguy666 (May 20, 2014)

I've said to keep it to the PMs twice, and you reply in the same condescending manner in the thread. Don't know how you expect me to react, but I hope that some day you'll be better than you look to me.


----------



## MJS (May 20, 2014)

Eliguy666 said:


> I've said to keep it to the PMs twice, and you reply in the same condescending manner in the thread. Don't know how you expect me to react, but I hope that some day you'll be better than you look to me.



Was that a PM?  

See that, even you don't listen to you.


----------



## eaeolian (May 20, 2014)

MJS said:


> Imagine being dumb enough to take my last sarcastic reply about an amazing artist/inlay god as a neg-rep-worthy serious insult.



Imagine having a month off. You know we don't tolerate complaining about rep.


----------



## Explorer (May 20, 2014)

I hadn't really thought about this regarding this topic, but a friend who owns an instrument-building company uses a laser to cut for some tiny, intricate items. 

He uses CAD software for the the positive and negative stuff (holes and what goes into those holes). 

I don't have a picture of a guitar neck, but seeing that it's possible to do for an interlocking piece on a curved pen, I'm pretty positive that working with flatter wood and a larger area might be possible as well with the right tools.






Now, back to discussion of how Schecter can't possibly be telling the truth, because it's impossible!

You all were saying?


----------



## mcsalty (May 21, 2014)

This thread's spiked my curiosity like crazy, so I just messaged Schecter asking them to break down the process of how they do the crosses on the guitar. HOPEFULLY their answer (if I get one) will put this thread to rest


----------



## immortalx (May 21, 2014)

Wow, haven't seen anything THAT impressive 

EDIT: Damn you mcsalty, i meant the pen  j/k


----------



## mcsalty (May 21, 2014)

immortalx said:


> Wow, haven't seen anything THAT impressive



loool 
Seriously though, I'm not really for either side but there hasn't been much more than arguing going on aside from the company itself saying they're inlaid and a few people on here both "proving" AND "debunking" the decal theory (albeit without showing any real evidence). If Schecter actually responds we might have a final answer haha

EDIT: sorry for the accidental  on that one, but it's pretty funny how a genuine comment can come out looking so sarcastic


----------



## Hollowway (May 21, 2014)

Explorer said:


> I hadn't really thought about this regarding this topic, but a friend who owns an instrument-building company uses a laser to cut for some tiny, intricate items.
> 
> He uses CAD software for the the positive and negative stuff (holes and what goes into those holes).
> 
> I don't have a picture of a guitar neck, but seeing that it's possible to do for an interlocking piece on a curved pen, I'm pretty positive that working with flatter wood and a larger area might be possible as well with the right tools.



Holy crap, Dylan also builds pens with cute dog inlays???!!!


----------



## M3CHK1LLA (May 21, 2014)

this thread has become like an episode of 'mythbusters'

* patiently waits for the final verdict...


----------



## Explorer (May 21, 2014)

I like how many inlay specialists there are, able to distinguish inlay from decal at a glance.

I used to be a dog inlay specialist...










Then I took an arrow in the knee.


----------



## stevexc (May 21, 2014)

M3CHK1LLA said:


> this thread has become like an episode of 'mythbusters'
> 
> * patiently waits for the final verdict...



Well, Schecter's come out and said they're inlays twice now... we just need someone to cut up their Loomis neck to actually get some evidence that they're not.


----------



## darren (May 21, 2014)

I think applying and aligning a series of water-slide decals on a fretboard would be at least as time consuming as in laying pre-cut pieces of plastic or pearl into a board. 

If the factory is already set up for inlaying pearloid crosses on other guitars, why would they go to a different process?


----------



## Surveyor 777 (May 21, 2014)

darren said:


> I think applying and aligning a series of water-slide decals on a fretboard would be at least as time consuming as in laying pre-cut pieces of plastic or pearl into a board.
> 
> If the factory is already set up for inlaying pearloid crosses on other guitars, why would they go to a different process?



This is what I kind-of said before. If Schecter puts the abalone cross inlays on the Hellraiser, why can't they put this kind of cross on the Loomis?

Again - I believe Schecter. Inlays.

This is a question for you, Darren, since you're a builder. Would the routes for the inlays be cut out first, then the inlays installed, then fret slots cut?

Reason I'm asking - on the Loomis, the 12th fret inlay extends beyond both the 12th fret and 11th fret fretwire. I would think that would be an absolute pain in the rear to try to line up some decal "just right" on both sides of the fretwire instead of having a piece of plastic snugly/tightly fit in the hole routed out for it.


----------



## Surveyor 777 (May 21, 2014)

stevexc said:


> Well, Schecter's come out and said they're inlays twice now... we just need someone to cut up their Loomis neck to actually get some evidence that they're not.



Again - HaloHat took a razor to his already.

And secondly - I'm going to be spending $1100+ on my Loomis this year. There's NO WAY I will be hacking up something that costs that much.


----------



## M3CHK1LLA (May 21, 2014)

stevexc said:


> Well, Schecter's come out and said they're inlays twice now... we just need someone to cut up their Loomis neck to actually get some evidence that they're not.



oh i believe they are inlays...just have a bit of fun with the drama this thread has caused


----------



## stevexc (May 21, 2014)

M3CHK1LLA said:


> oh i believe they are inlays...just have a bit of fun with the drama this thread has caused



Shhh, I want to see someone break something expensive! Specifically, a Loomis!


----------



## SpaceDock (May 21, 2014)

Surveyor 777 said:


> Again - HaloHat took a razor to his already.



Pics or it didn't happen, plus I bet he was just scratching at clear coat.

We need someone to take a core sample, lets get geologic on this


----------



## darren (May 21, 2014)

Surveyor 777 said:


> This is a question for you, Darren, since you're a builder. Would the routes for the inlays be cut out first, then the inlays installed, then fret slots cut?



The order doesn't really matter all that much. Frets obviously go in last.  But if you've got inlays that span fret slots, you want to make sure everything is in registration, so they're probably all cut at the same time. Strips of Teflon or Delrin can be used as "dams" to keep the glue for the inlays out of the fret slots.


----------



## TylerRay (May 21, 2014)

darren said:


> The order doesn't really matter all that much. Frets obviously go in last.  But if you've got inlays that span fret slots, you want to make sure everything is in registration, so they're probably all cut at the same time. Strips of Teflon or Delrin can be used as "dams" to keep the glue for the inlays out of the fret slots.



In my experience with large inlays, it's easiest to inlay and then cut the fret slots. A design that already has a million pieces becomes even more of a pain when you pre cut the pieces to avoid the fret slot.


----------



## mcsalty (May 21, 2014)

Too lazy to screenshot and upload, but here's the response I got from Schecter:



> Jason,
> This is done the same as any inlay job. The shape of the cross is routed into the fingerboard. The crosses, which are cut in a single piece, are inserted into the route and glued in place. The whole thing is sanded flush.



Take that as you will, I know a few people here will still be unconvinced lol


----------



## flint757 (May 22, 2014)

Surveyor 777 said:


> Yes, I can understand that. I still have to believe that they are inlays until somebody gives me 100% proof that they aren't. Sort of the "innocent until proven guilty" sort of thing.
> 
> To all the people saying they're decals - I understand your point. I could imagine a black "metal cross" image on the decal material, with a small border all the way around it. I can see how some pictures look just like that.
> 
> ...



Looking at mine every single point is rounded then filled with filler. All of them. The edge would be uniform wouldn't it if it were a decal with likely no bulbous points. That wouldn't be there with a decal unless the intention was to deceive us which I highly doubt. It'd be a PR nightmare if someone bothered tearing up their guitar to only find out it was actually a decal. Schecter has a lot of overkill inlay work so I'm not surprised that they would have the technique down. CNC can do wonderful things.


----------



## Explorer (May 22, 2014)

Well, at this point I can't imagine someone continuing with the conspiracy theories without actual proof.

Anyone rational, I mean.

*laugh*


----------



## sehnomatic (May 22, 2014)

Got my hands on one and I no longer believe that they're decals; just inlays with a tad bit bigger gaps than i'm used to seeing.

Edit: this one definitely has routed cross tips, most pictures dont show this that well


----------



## cardinal (May 22, 2014)

It seems like the only real argument for the stickers is that no filler looks like what's in those pics. Is that actually true? Seems like you'd be able something suitable in this world, but I'm no luthier.


----------



## flint757 (May 22, 2014)

Considering it has people questioning its authenticity I'm going to say they found a filler that matched pretty damn good. They do inlay work equally as complex on other guitars, it'd make no sense for them to just not do it on a Loomis. To then lie about it would be even dumber.


----------



## ElysianGuitars (May 23, 2014)

Explorer said:


> I hadn't really thought about this regarding this topic, but a friend who owns an instrument-building company uses a laser to cut for some tiny, intricate items.
> 
> He uses CAD software for the the positive and negative stuff (holes and what goes into those holes).
> 
> ...



Every black line on that is a gap.



Surveyor 777 said:


> This is what I kind-of said before. If Schecter puts the abalone cross inlays on the Hellraiser, why can't they put this kind of cross on the Loomis?
> 
> Again - I believe Schecter. Inlays.
> 
> ...



The inlays on the Hellraiser are MUCH simpler. They also are routed MUCH tighter than what we see on the Loomis, why is that?

Here's a for instance, it's actually harder to find high res images of the Hellraiser inlays:






There's no filler there, it's a tight fitting channel. Why would the Loomis be done differently if it is an inlay? Why would the channel not be as tight as possible to avoid having to fill as much, a la the PRS inlay? It doesn't cost more money to route tighter lines, it costs more money to have to manually fill each and every inlay on each and every guitar. You know what's cheaper? A decal. Inlay routes don't catch light like a decal does, like I pointed out earlier in the thread.

As for the razor blade scratch test... I've already covered this, import guitar finishes are 15+ mil while a decal is 2-3mil thick. Scratching a properly buried decal with a razor on a 15+ mil finish will do nothing, you're have to seriously gouge away at the finish. 

I'm sure not everyone here is intimately familiar with my experience, and I'm sure it's easy enough to believe a manufacturer, why wouldn't you right? As I've said before, I've laid out my argument, it's pretty sound. Sadly, all that's come from it is condescension and mockery.


----------



## Prophetable (May 23, 2014)

All you're doing is working off of baseless assumption. So far in this thread we've had:
-Examples of finer inlay work proving it is possible.
-Word from the manufacturer saying that it is, in fact, an inlay.
-Word from people that own the guitar and are actually looking at it. In person. Saying it's an inlay.
-And a person that actually scraped his to prove it.


You're choosing to ignore the evidence just because you are too up your own ass to admit your initial impression wasn't correct. Move along, man.


----------



## ElysianGuitars (May 23, 2014)

Prophetable said:


> All you're doing is working off of baseless assumption. So far in this thread we've had:
> -Examples of finer inlay work proving it is possible.
> -Word from the manufacturer saying that it is, in fact, an inlay.
> -Word from people that own the guitar and are actually looking at it. In person. Saying it's an inlay.
> ...



I'm experienced enough to know a decal when I see it. That's not baseless. I've gone to great lengths to lay out my argument, it's absurd to say it's "baseless." I'll believe it's an inlay when I see a video of it being inlayed or I see a stripped down fretboard. Keep marching on with the condescension though


----------



## JamesM (May 23, 2014)

I seriously can not believe this thread is still going.


----------



## MetalDaze (May 23, 2014)

Carvin wouldn't do anything other than dots on maple fretboards for a long time, stating the maple was less forgiving when routing bigger inlays. That explains the difference on the rosewood version to me.


----------



## ElysianGuitars (May 23, 2014)

MetalDaze said:


> Carvin wouldn't do anything other than dots on maple fretboards for a long time, stating the maple was less forgiving when routing bigger inlays. That explains the difference on the rosewood version to me.



That just means it's harder to fill if there are gaps, which is exactly true. As I showed in the PRS picture, maple can be routed without appreciable gaps, and lots of manufacturers do, but apparently Schecter only does on their rosewood boards. There's no logical reason to program a CNC to route a gappy inlay in maple but not in rosewood. It makes absolutely NO sense to route an extra 1/32-1/16" extra around dead straight lines in maple then fill it. I have plenty of experience working in a large scale guitar factory, I know very well how these things work.


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## flint757 (May 23, 2014)

Loomis Inlay Close Up by flint757, on Flickr

Here is as close as I could get. My lens wouldn't focus that close so I digitally zoomed it in lightroom.

Here are some additional shots, I'll let you be the judge. Looking at the close up I'm actually starting to lean towards decal. Then again there are certain aspects of the edges on those inlays that would seem to only be needed if it were in fact routed out. If it is in inlay they definitely carved out the entirety of the fretboard where the inlay is and just used fill. There is an obvious color difference where the smaller points are located. That could be because it is a decal or because they just carved out a chunk and used fill rather than cutting it exactly. I'm certainly no expert and I definitely don't care enough to tear up my guitar to find out for sure. 



IMG_5035 by flint757, on Flickr



IMG_5038 by flint757, on Flickr



IMG_5039 by flint757, on Flickr



IMG_5042 by flint757, on Flickr



IMG_5044 by flint757, on Flickr



IMG_5045 by flint757, on Flickr



IMG_5046 by flint757, on Flickr


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## BIG ND SWEATY (May 23, 2014)

To me it looks like an inlay mainly because you can see rounded out discoloration at the points of the curved sections. My guess it that they route the whole section a bit oversized and use their own kind of filler that closely resemble the tint that their maple boards have. If it were a decal I don't think that you would see as much discoloration around the edges since you'd be able to make the edges clear and crisp.


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## Deadnightshade (May 23, 2014)

BIG ND SWEATY said:


> To me it looks like an inlay mainly because you can see rounded out discoloration at the points of the curved sections. My guess it that they route the whole section a bit oversized and use their own kind of filler that closely resemble the tint that their maple boards have. If it were a decal I don't think that you would see as much discoloration around the edges since you'd be able to make the edges clear and crisp.



+1000 about the edges. I was going to say that if jokomo can do it perfectly clean in his tree of life sticker inlays, I refuse that Schecter ignores that you could do it perfectly or that the company would purposefully make the decals with margins that look like filler just to deceive.

Having the fretboard a bit thicker and then sanding it flush as Schecter stated sounds like the only way to make it look that way. As for the hellraisers, since the inlays are simple (and also made out of abalone instead of plastic) that procedure mustn't be obligatory.


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## mcsalty (May 23, 2014)

flint757 said:


> pictures



Ironically enough, your pictures have me leaning even more on the inlay side of the debate than I already had been. Kind of discredits all the talk about filler being "unable to match a maple fretboard so perfectly" seeing as the discolouration of the (apparent) filler/glue around the crosses is so obvious/noticeably different than the colour tone of the maple itself. It doesn't look like a decal so much as a less-than-exact route where the inlay is surrounded by glue and/or filler, which is exactly how Schecter described it anyway.


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## flint757 (May 23, 2014)

That was my initial thought as well.


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## Explorer (May 23, 2014)

ElysianGuitars said:


> Every black line on that is a gap.



Actually, every black line is laser scorching. You can see it on the individual pieces in the illustration.

Sorry to correct you. I've seen this kind of thing in person too, with my friend who has a laser cutter as part of his instrument workshop. The pieces fit exactly, no filler. 

Is it possible that you might be mistaken about anything else in this topic, from your viewpoint?

Anyway, at this point, especially with the new photos, I can't imagine someone treading further into tinfoil hat territory....


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## ElysianGuitars (May 23, 2014)

Regardling the Loomis decal, why would light catch an inlay route edge at certain angles but not others? If the fill is flush there should be no place that can cast a shadow or catch light.

I've pointed this out earlier in the thread, I'll point it out again...






Your light source is clearly on the right in this shot, and you can see shadows cast at the edge of the decal on the left hand side of the piece only. If this were an inlay, with a route, there would be no shadows. There are no shadows on the right hand side of the decal edges, towards the source, because they're illuminated by the light source.



Explorer said:


> Actually, every black line is laser scorching. You can see it on the individual pieces in the illustration.
> 
> Sorry to correct you. I've seen this kind of thing in person too, with my friend who has a laser cutter as part of his instrument workshop. The pieces fit exactly, no filler.
> 
> ...



No, I know inlay quite well thanks. That "laser scorch" sure opens up wide at places.

I am interested in seeing if my observations from pictures hold up in the real world though, so I'll head to Guitar Center on my way back from Woodcraft and see if they still have a Loomis on the wall and check it out if they do.


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## UnderTheSign (May 23, 2014)

ElysianGuitars said:


> No, I know inlay quite well thanks. That "laser scorch" sure opens up wide at places.


And you're still surprised why people mock and condescend you?

You're not the only one who knows his stuff and assuming Explorer has seen the lasered work in real life, I'd say he knows what it is, not you, based on a low resolution photo on the internet.

As for the Loomis, judging by those pictures it might very well be an inlay.


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## foreright (May 23, 2014)

^^^ This - amazed this thread is still going!


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## Chokey Chicken (May 23, 2014)

I find it funny that people keep claiming that they're super experienced and know 100% from seeing shitty pictures if it's inlays or not. We can say anything we want on the internet and no one can prove otherwise. I'm inclined to believe schecter, as my experience with them has been nothing short of great. Between fixing that one guys KM-7 that tipped over and lost a tuning knob, admitting the routes and paint went out on some of the early KM-7's being less than perfect (and I think even offering to replace those if people weren't happy.) 

The important thin to note here is that Schecter, who has given us no reason to suspect they're lying, says they're inlays. We also know that a guy who claims to have super-mega experience with less than 130 posts is saying they're decals. I personally don't care one way or the other, but I think it is in OP's best interest to er on the side of caution and assume they're inlays that can't be scraped. 

Bonus points though to whoever decides to scallop or remove the clear coat and then scrape at it. If I wanted one of these, I'd buy one and scallop it just for the sake of scalloping.


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## ElysianGuitars (May 23, 2014)

UnderTheSign said:


> And you're still surprised why people mock and condescend you?
> 
> You're not the only one who knows his stuff and assuming Explorer has seen the lasered work in real life, I'd say he knows what it is, not you, based on a low resolution photo on the internet.
> 
> As for the Loomis, judging by those pictures it might very well be an inlay.



Believe it or not, I know a bit about laser cutting as well, as I worked as the production supervisor at a glass and crystal engraving company before I became a full-time builder, and we had an Epilog 18 laser cutter. Collings also had laser cutters, but not for inlay.


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## cardinal (May 23, 2014)

Is it just me, or does the wood grain on the board continue perfectly through the "grain" on the cross?


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## ElysianGuitars (May 23, 2014)

Chokey Chicken said:


> I find it funny that people keep claiming that they're super experienced and know 100% from seeing shitty pictures if it's inlays or not. We can say anything we want on the internet and no one can prove otherwise. I'm inclined to believe schecter, as my experience with them has been nothing short of great. Between fixing that one guys KM-7 that tipped over and lost a tuning knob, admitting the routes and paint went out on some of the early KM-7's being less than perfect (and I think even offering to replace those if people weren't happy.)
> 
> The important thin to note here is that Schecter, who has given us no reason to suspect they're lying, says they're inlays. We also know that a guy who claims to have super-mega experience with less than 130 posts is saying they're decals. I personally don't care one way or the other, but I think it is in OP's best interest to er on the side of caution and assume they're inlays that can't be scraped.
> 
> Bonus points though to whoever decides to scallop or remove the clear coat and then scrape at it. If I wanted one of these, I'd buy one and scallop it just for the sake of scalloping.



My claims of being experienced aren't unfounded. I've worked on more guitars than most people on this forum, Ormsby being one of the few who has done more than I have. I've had Elysian Guitars since 2007, I've worked at Collings Guitars for a year and a half (and had over 1000 acoustics and 500+ electrics pass through my hands), I also ran the finish department for Allison Guitars and sent him to NAMM with 12 acoustics finished to the same quality standards as Collings Guitars, while only having 2 months to actually get finish on all of the guitars (and I took them from bare wood all the way to final polished). For part of my time at Collings I was doing all acoustic guitar sprays (for guitars with lacquer finish). I've been doing guitar finish since my first respray in 1998. I'm not "claiming" experience, I've got it in spades.


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## ElysianGuitars (May 23, 2014)

cardinal said:


> Is it just me, or does the wood grain on the board continue perfectly through the "grain" on the cross?



That's just fine grit sanding scratches before the satin coat was sprayed. Probably 320-400 grit range.


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## flint757 (May 23, 2014)

That was also something I noticed. It was why I said it very well could be a decal as I imagine they might take the shape of the grain once applied and painted over. I imagine that could also just be from sanding though. I don't know, I'm certainly no expert on the subject. Maybe that's pretty normal. 

[EDIT]


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## Necris (May 23, 2014)

I think the most important thing the OP needs to know is that regardless of whether the crosses are inlaid or decals the removal process isn't easy for either.

Decal, scrape it off. Awesome, now you potentially have to remove the frets*, sand the entire board to remove the scrape marks*, refinish the board*, and then refret. 

* Unless you don't care how it looks with scrape marks, then you can just leave it as is. But if the crosses are bothering you I doubt aesthetics aren't something you care about.

Inlays: Removing and filling the inlays will look awful. Option 2 is remove the fingerboard. Then you get to deal with cutting a new board to size, radiusing it, slotting it, gluing it to the neck, refretting it etc.

Neither seem all that worth it to me.


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## stevexc (May 23, 2014)

K seriously someone just go scallop a Loomis. It'll be cool and we'll have a definite answer.

Or send me $700 there's a guy selling a used Loomis V here and I know where I can borrow a hacksaw. FOR SCIENCE.

But seriously, anyone going to the store and looking at it isn't going to do anything for anyone in the argument. The "inlay" side is gonna say "yup looks like inlays" and the "sticker" side is gonna say "yup looks like stickers in my experience". Someone's either gonna have to actually do something to demonstrate one way or another otherwise this is a bunch of pseudo-scientific dick-waving.


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## HurrDurr (May 23, 2014)

stevexc said:


> K seriously someone just go scallop a Loomis. It'll be cool and we'll have a definite answer.
> 
> Or send me $700 there's a guy selling a used Loomis V here and I know where I can borrow a hacksaw. FOR SCIENCE.
> 
> But seriously, anyone going to the store and looking at it isn't going to do anything for anyone in the argument. The "inlay" side is gonna say "yup looks like inlays" and the "sticker" side is gonna say "yup looks like stickers in my experience". Someone's either gonna have to actually do something to demonstrate one way or another otherwise this is a bunch of pseudo-scientific dick-waving.



Dick-waving... FOR SCIENCE!


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## Chokey Chicken (May 23, 2014)

ElysianGuitars said:


> My claims of being experienced aren't unfounded. I've worked on more guitars than most people on this forum, Ormsby being one of the few who has done more than I have. I've had Elysian Guitars since 2007, I've worked at Collings Guitars for a year and a half (and had over 1000 acoustics and 500+ electrics pass through my hands), I also ran the finish department for Allison Guitars and sent him to NAMM with 12 acoustics finished to the same quality standards as Collings Guitars, while only having 2 months to actually get finish on all of the guitars (and I took them from bare wood all the way to final polished). For part of my time at Collings I was doing all acoustic guitar sprays (for guitars with lacquer finish). I've been doing guitar finish since my first respray in 1998. I'm not "claiming" experience, I've got it in spades.



Yeah, and I worked for NASA and landed on the moon. My point is that you're some guy on the internet who can say whatever they like, and without proof it means nothing. 

I believe you, for what it's worth. Like I said though, it doesn't matter if they're inlays or stickers. It's still way more difficult to remove them than it's worth either way. OP will just have to leave them on. I still think someone should scallop one though. Scallops are great, and it'd answer definitively.


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## HurrDurr (May 23, 2014)

I just don't understand why this thread derailment is happening. Who cares if Elysian is experienced or not? Who cares if they're inlays or stickers? If OP wishes to have them removed, he can go find a way to get it done by a skilled luthier, because as Chokey and others have previously stated, *IT WILL* be difficult and not worth the time or effort to potentially botch the whole thing. I just don't see the point in all this "scientific dick-waving" when the issue is can OP have them removed and is it a good idea?

To which my answer is Yes, but no.


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## Surveyor 777 (May 23, 2014)

I hope people will lay off bashing Elysian in this thread. As far as I know he was a member here WAY before I joined (I joined back in 2008) but I think he used a different name (I could be wrong). I "know" him from MG.org & he seems to be a very stand-up kind of guy. He has tons of guitar building experience & I believe he knows his stuff when it comes to guitars.

But of course I still disagree with you on decals/inlays - I still believe they're inlays 

A question for you Elysian - in the picture that cardinal posted, where he thought those were grain lines seen through the "inlay/decal" and you said they were probably scratches from sanding - would you sand a decal? Do decals stick that well that sandpaper wouldn't rip or tear at them? I have no idea but it seems weird to me.

And to the OP - I believe they're inlays so I would think your only options are to live with the crosses as-is OR find someone who can steam off the fretboard & replace it with a new one.


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## ElysianGuitars (May 23, 2014)

Surveyor 777 said:


> I hope people will lay off bashing Elysian in this thread. As far as I know he was a member here WAY before I joined (I joined back in 2008) but I think he used a different name (I could be wrong). I "know" him from MG.org & he seems to be a very stand-up kind of guy. He has tons of guitar building experience & I believe he knows his stuff when it comes to guitars.
> 
> But of course I still disagree with you on decals/inlays - I still believe they're inlays
> 
> ...



Decals are buried under finish, so you never actually sand the decal, you build finish up over it then sand that finish to get a level surface. Decals have to be done very early in the finish process so you have enough finish built up to be level.


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## Pikka Bird (May 23, 2014)

Scalloped Loomis (old version)... This one has inlays for sure (as far as I can tell, the video quality is a bit iffy), you can see he's gone through them in the middle of some of his scallops, but not all of them. I tried sending him a message asking for some clarification, but he has his inbox limited to contacts only.


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## ElysianGuitars (May 23, 2014)

Chokey Chicken said:


> Yeah, and I worked for NASA and landed on the moon. My point is that you're some guy on the internet who can say whatever they like, and without proof it means nothing.
> 
> I believe you, for what it's worth. Like I said though, it doesn't matter if they're inlays or stickers. It's still way more difficult to remove them than it's worth either way. OP will just have to leave them on. I still think someone should scallop one though. Scallops are great, and it'd answer definitively.



I agree with you that it doesn't matter, I've held that belief the entire thread. From a players perspective it makes no difference if it's inlay or decal. 

This is my final post on this subject (for real this time). I went to Guitar Center hoping to find a Loomis (I've seen one at this particular store before) but was disappointed to not find one. I did, however, find much cheaper guitars made by Schecter, all with very tight inlay routes (even sharp points). Not much filler to be found on their cheaper guitars, seems odd that it's acceptable on a Loomis. I took pictures:














Nothing resembles the Loomis inlay when it comes to the "filler." Schecter clearly isn't afraid of doing sharp points, but the amount of clearance on the Loomis isn't in line with the rest of their production line. Take that for what it's worth.

One final thought on this... I've tried to be nothing but civil here, and there's no reason I shouldn't expect that in return. We're all adults here, we can handle ourselves accordingly. I didn't try to make this an "I'm right and you're wrong" discussion either, I merely laid out my argument, in a civilized manner. Everyone should take a step back and consider their tone and their treatment of others, as some of the posts in this thread are pretty unbecoming. As a wise philosopher once said, "Be excellent to each other."


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## Noxon (May 23, 2014)

I'm not sure if I like this thread or the Vik one better for unnecessary drama...


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## HurrDurr (May 23, 2014)

Noxon said:


> I'm not sure if I like this thread or the Vik one better for unnecessary drama...



Yeah right dude, the ViK thread is _*class GOLD*_.


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## ihunda (May 23, 2014)

Damn, this is amazing inlay work! Got to be CNC right?


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## stevexc (May 23, 2014)

So what all have we established?

1. Schecter is capable of doing very tight routes in rosewood and ebony, to say the least.
2. Schecter says the Loomis has inlays (however there is the possibility that they're referring to the new ones, as we're looking at the old ones afaik).
3. The "inlays" (referred to as such because I'm lazy) have an uneven discolored border around them.
4. At least one Loomis has been shown to have inlays and not stickers.
5. It's possible to laser cut things so there's no gaps.
6. Complaining about rep is bad.
7. ElysianGuitars has not found a filler that matches that maple.
8. A mil is not a millimeter.
9. People for some reason REALLY care about this.
10. I like lists.


So what can we draw from that? There's reasons why they might not be inlays, and there's reasons that suggest they are. There's no reasons why they CAN'T be or HAVE to be (aside from the one guy who does, in fact, have inlays).


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## Metal-Box (May 23, 2014)

cardinal said:


> Is it just me, or does the wood grain on the board continue perfectly through the "grain" on the cross?




I believe the "inlay" is dyed (or thermally transferred) into the wood as well. You can clearly see the grain of the wood flowing into the inlay. Perhaps it's dye sublimated as they do on T-shirts.


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## sehnomatic (May 23, 2014)

Metal-Box said:


> I believe the "inlay" is dyed (or thermally transferred) into the wood as well. You can clearly see the grain of the wood flowing into the inlay. Perhaps it's dye sublimated as they do on T-shirts.



Satin clear


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## Metal-Box (May 23, 2014)

sehnomatic said:


> Satin clear



Please elaborate. I don't know what you mean by that.


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## flint757 (May 24, 2014)

The lines you see are from the paint coat and I believe are caused by the sanding. I thought the same thing at first though.


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## Metal-Box (May 24, 2014)

flint757 said:


> The lines you see are from the paint coat and I believe are caused by the sanding. I thought the same thing at first though.



But even the darker lines run through it. If you look at the grain lines that never pass through the inlay, then find similar ones that do pass through the inlay, they have the same textures and flow. You can also see slight sanding marks, but they appear as hairline grooves, rather than dark lines.


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## flint757 (May 24, 2014)

Yeah, I don't know anymore.  It's my only guitar with a painted fretboard so I have nothing to compare it to. I keep going back and forth in my head about it though.


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## Metal-Box (May 24, 2014)

However, after looking around. I found this page where the guys put the headstock logo on as a decal. It looks like is dyed on the headstock though. It's very similar in appearance to the Schecter inlays in terms of color, opaqueness, and blend.

Custom Bailey for Skerryvore- Inlays and water decal logo

But, if you look at the Schecter inlays, you can see the slightly different colored outline of the inlay, indicating it was filled with glue before the inlay is set into the fretboard. A lot of intricate inlay work will have this.

Wow, I can't believe this is intriguing me so much!


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## flint757 (May 24, 2014)

It'll be especially intriguing if it is indeed a decal because it means Schecter flat out lied about it. As for my guitar, I'm not all that concerned which ever way it ends up going. Functionally there is obviously going to be no difference and it doesn't look bad. I doubt it'd actually look different at all if it was one or the other.

I've put decals on my guitars before though and they don't quite look like the inlays do. Elysian pointed out that there'd be no reason for the extra trim if it was routed out since they are capable of doing fairly tight routes, but at the same time why would you need such a large edge on the decal either. On the close up the discolored portion extends past all the points and forms a circle. It's the kind of shapes you'd expect if a router was used as I understand it. Why would the decals be done that way if it wasn't needed either? The edge around it isn't even the same width all the way around. To me it 'kind of' looks like they made the cut bigger than needed, filled it up and then sanded it back down. Like I said though, I'm no expert.



Loomis Inlay Close Up 2 by flint757, on Flickr


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## MetalDaze (May 24, 2014)

Check out this nifty product. It can be used on wood and you can tint it practically any color:

Durham's Water Putty (R) | Donald Durham's Rock Hard Water Putty


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## Jacobine (May 24, 2014)

cardinal said:


> Is it just me, or does the wood grain on the board continue perfectly through the "grain" on the cross?



That maple grain's a decal too. They decalled it over the decal crosses since they dont have a filler to match maple. Hence why the whole neck is that vintage yellow.




flint757 said:


> To me it 'kind of' looks like they made the cut bigger than needed, filled it up and then sanded it back down. Like I said though, I'm no expert.
> 
> 
> 
> Loomis Inlay Close Up 2 by flint757, on Flickr



Guys.. What if.. Guys. 

What if they're decals made... to look like theyre inlays..


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## mcsalty (May 24, 2014)

The entire guitar is actually just a decal


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## Jacobine (May 24, 2014)

mcsalty said:


> The entire guitar is actually just a decal



Youre a decal


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## immortalx (May 24, 2014)

Jacobine said:


> Youre a decal



What de-you-cal him?


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## Pikka Bird (May 24, 2014)

So nobody is going to acknowledge that we actually have footage of a scalloped Loomis now?


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## bugmenot1 (May 24, 2014)

If I'm understanding this correctly, Schecter is skilled enough to do perfect inlay jobs on every single guitar except the Loomis, but when it came time to do the Loomis, they went with decals for no reason.............. _and not a single person in the entire company was smart enough to know that decals don't need borders that look like filler_? 

Makes perfect sense. Why do perfect inlays on all models, when you can randomly pick one model to do imperfect decals on? It's only Jeff Loomis... not like that noob brings in enough sales to deserve special treatment.  

And shame on Schecter for lying!!! How do they ever expect to be a big successful company with a huge following and tons of experience like Elysian Guitars with this type of behavior???


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## Explorer (May 24, 2014)

It's so obvious!

How can anyone not see that those are decals, from top to bottom!






*laugh*


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## TheRileyOBrien (Aug 22, 2014)

I can assure you on the 2014 ones it is definitely an inlay(I am sure the old ones were too). Mine has a small pinhole where the filler was not completely filled in...and the filler doesn't match very well at all. Probably matched better on the old ones due to the tinted finish. It is clearly cut with a cnc router because you can see that they use too big of a bit for the tight spots(probably to save money).


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## Forrest_H (Aug 22, 2014)

Hey guys? Um...


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## TheRileyOBrien (Aug 22, 2014)

Forrest_H said:


> Hey guys? Um...




Just thought I would add some input since I got one of the new ones. You didn't have to click on this.


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