# Speed picking tips??



## HumanFuseBen (May 4, 2007)

hey kiddos
i feel like i'm pretty proficient with most guitar techniques, but my super fast speed picking is lacking. i have no problem doing really fast alternate picked scalar runs in solos, it's just death metal-y trem picked stuff that gets me. my speed is only decent, and i have low endurance. i usually always pick from the wrist when i'm doing anything else, but with speed picking, i usually lock my wrist and let the elbow do the work. should i be using my wrist for speed picking??? 
any tips would be great. i listen to bands like Nile who speed pick constantly, and i have to wonder how they can play entire sets like that without their hands falling off. thanks!


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## JBroll (May 4, 2007)

Practice and experience - assuming your technique is fine, it just takes a long time of playing stuff that kills you. Check out DNR by Testament and all of the Nile stuff for exercises, bring it up to speed as well as you can and work to get it consistent, and if you can pull it off try taking them 20bpm or so above the recorded tempo just to be safe. They've been doing it a long time, that's really all it comes down to, so pull out the metronome and keep at it.

EDIT: Misread the elbow part... wouldn't recommend elbow picking at all, as it requires a lot more strain than you need and limits your versatility. Don't change your picking technique as speed increases, it'll only lead to trouble. END EDIT.

Jeff


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## Gilbucci (May 4, 2007)

Speed picking with the elbow can lead to SERIOUS problems. The wrist is the only thing you should be using. You can play alot longer with your wrist, and alot more fluid. It'll take time before you're off and picking like a maniac, dont get discouraged, man, it'll come. Good luck!


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## Ancestor (May 4, 2007)

The tightening of everything like that is bad. I know, because I do it all the time. Just keep practicing and watching videos. You'll get it. Even when I used to do almost all my picking with the arm, eventually it loosened up (believe it or not). It's just a matter of doing it all the time. If you just spend five minutes every day, by the end of the year you'll see a big difference.


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## distressed_romeo (May 5, 2007)

Gilbucci said:


> Speed picking with the elbow can lead to SERIOUS problems. The wrist is the only thing you should be using. You can play alot longer with your wrist, and alot more fluid. It'll take time before you're off and picking like a maniac, dont get discouraged, man, it'll come. Good luck!



Not totally true. There are guys who use their elbow a lot in their picking motion, and sound great, with no physical damage. The problem is when the elbow comes in due to your arm tensing up. Provided you keep your arm relaxed, any combination of wrist and elbow can work just fine.


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## lordofthesewers (May 5, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> Not totally true. There are guys who use their elbow a lot in their picking motion, and sound great, with no physical damage. The problem is when the elbow comes in due to your arm tensing up. Provided you keep your arm relaxed, and combination of wrist and elbow can work just fine.



that is exactly what steve smyth told me last lesson. Also for speed picking do not anchor, that is another thing he told me about speed picking


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## distressed_romeo (May 5, 2007)

lordofthesewers said:


> that is exactly what steve smyth told me last lesson. Also for speed picking do not anchor, that is another thing he told me about speed picking



Again, only partially true. Yngwie, Michael Angelo, John Petrucci, and Steve Morse all anchor one or all of their spare fingers on the guitar body...

I've always anchored my pinky on the guitar and never had a problem with speed picking either. I literally can't pick any other way to be honest, although I don't think it's really held me back, so I'm not too bothered.

Having said that, Steve Smyth is way more accomplished than me (massive understatement), so you should probably take his advice before mine...


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## Cancer (May 5, 2007)

Possibly the best synopsis of picking techniques on the web.

It's funny that you mentioned Nile, as Karl and Dallas has totally different picking styles (Karl using circle picking, and Dallas using Standard style variation 2), yet achieve the same velocity, albeit with wildly different efficiencies (Dallas's picking hand is a blur, Karl's hand barely moves).

Picking, like tone, is a very personal thing, what works (or is taught) by one may not necessary work with another, so it really does pay to experiment, as your body will definitely give you clues as to what works and what doesn't.


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## distressed_romeo (May 5, 2007)

psyphre said:


> Possibly the best synopsis of picking techniques on the web.
> 
> It's funny that you mentioned Nile, as Karl and Dallas has totally different picking styles (Karl using circle picking, and Dallas using Standard style variation 2), yet achieve the same velocity, albeit with wildly different efficiencies (Dallas's picking hand is a blur, Karl's hand barely moves).



That article's amazing. It made me rethink a lot of aspects of my picking when I first saw it a couple of years ago. Tuck should really publish a book at some point...


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## Cancer (May 5, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> Again, only partially true. Yngwie, Michael Angelo, John Petrucci, and Steve Morse all anchor one or all of their spare fingers on the guitar body...
> 
> Having said that, Steve Smyth is way more accomplished than me (massive understatement), so you should probably take his advice before mine...



...or at least understand the context, as Yngwie and Batio have a completely different picking style (a circular, Gambale variant) from Petrucci or Morse (strict, from the wrist, alternate).

It's been mentioned already, but videos are your best friend here.

[action=Cancer] wishes Troy Grady would release his film on picking already, as he believes it will serve to be film equivalent of the Tuck Andress site. [/action]


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## distressed_romeo (May 5, 2007)

^What he said.


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## HotRodded7321 (May 5, 2007)

Asesino...it makes no fucking sense what he's playing, but it will give you popeye forearms like a bitch! lol


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## Gilbucci (May 5, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> Not totally true. There are guys who use their elbow a lot in their picking motion, and sound great, with no physical damage. The problem is when the elbow comes in due to your arm tensing up. Provided you keep your arm relaxed, any combination of wrist and elbow can work just fine.


I forgot to mention the tension part. Thanks tom.


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## Jongpil Yun (May 7, 2007)

If I had to choose people to pick like, it'd be Shawn Lane, Buckethead, PG, and Rusty Cooley.

I read that article but frankly I have no idea what the hell it is I just read. Also, I'd rather trust a kinesiologist than Tuck Andress, AKA Random McJazz player.

Speaking of which, I wonder if there have been any major studies on picking technique?


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## DDDorian (May 7, 2007)

You can get away with plenty of elbow, as long as you recognise which sensations are caused by stress on the tendons and which are simply muscle fatigue. I've found that the angle my arm is tilted and the distance my elbow is flexed are vitally important in avoiding tendon injury. Basically, the more outstretched my arm is (sich as when picking with a fairly low-hanging guitar while standing) the more elbow I can get away with. Either way, a combination of wrist and elbow is what I recommend. That and the first Annihilator record, heh.


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## Cancer (May 7, 2007)

I just thought of this, but emulating those who are where you want to be helps to. Like when I started I played death metal, so emulating what other death metal players really helped.


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## Aghorasilat (May 7, 2007)

SLOW work with Alternate & Economypicking & metronome pick 3 note sequences, 4 notes, 5 notes, 6 notes etc.

play 16 notes subdivisions at 60 bpm, then switch to 16 note triplet at 60 bpms, then switch to 32note subdivisions at 60 bpm...

then amp up the metronome up to 65 and work your way up to 100bpms with those subdivisions.

Practice with RELAXED muscles let the hands "Melt"

Use the wrist and 1st thumb joint to develop the picking.

Watch Gilbert, Gambale, Maclaughlin & Vai pick....I hold my pick like them I don't care for anchoring or using Elbow.



Peace

Santiago Dobles
Official Aghora Website


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## Gilbucci (May 7, 2007)

You would practice Economy picking and alternate picking? Why is that? I always thought it was one or the other.


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## Nomad (May 7, 2007)

HumanFuseBen said:


> hey kiddos
> i feel like i'm pretty proficient with most guitar techniques, but my super fast speed picking is lacking. i have no problem doing really fast alternate picked scalar runs in solos, it's just death metal-y trem picked stuff that gets me. my speed is only decent, and i have low endurance. i usually always pick from the wrist when i'm doing anything else, but with speed picking, i usually lock my wrist and let the elbow do the work. should i be using my wrist for speed picking???
> any tips would be great. i listen to bands like Nile who speed pick constantly, and i have to wonder how they can play entire sets like that without their hands falling off. thanks!



FWIW, I also find it easier to tremolo from the elbow as opposed to the wrist.

Answer to Nile question: They simply are inhuman. 

Edit: I must disagree with the "never any elbow" views expressed above. IMO, tremolo picking is best accomplished from a loose elbow, while keeping the wrist relatively straight. For strumming or regular alternate picking I use a wrist motion but to try and sweep or change strings the elbow has got to move.


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## Cancer (May 7, 2007)

Gilbucci said:


> You would practice Economy picking and alternate picking? Why is that? I always thought it was one or the other.




One helps reinforce the other.


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## distressed_romeo (May 7, 2007)

psyphre said:


> One helps reinforce the other.



What he said. In my experience it's better to think of economy picking as an extension of good alternate picking technique than a technique unto itself.


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## Jongpil Yun (May 7, 2007)

I'm a strict economy picker. I never saw the point of alternate picking, at all.


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## JBroll (May 7, 2007)

I used to think that way, but then I found that there was a serious volume limitation that kept you below a certain 'smack' threshold before you went from proper economy picking to separated downstrokes - which completely defeated the purpose. It's not nearly as easy to pull off good economy picking on an acoustic with heavy strings, alternate picking can be as fast as anyone needs for anything but one note per string arpeggios over five or six strings (listen to Steve Morse if you don't believe me), and often even that, and there's much more dynamic control.

Jeff


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## distressed_romeo (May 8, 2007)

JBroll said:


> I used to think that way, but then I found that there was a serious volume limitation that kept you below a certain 'smack' threshold before you went from proper economy picking to separated downstrokes - which completely defeated the purpose. It's not nearly as easy to pull off good economy picking on an acoustic with heavy strings, alternate picking can be as fast as anyone needs for anything but one note per string arpeggios over five or six strings (listen to Steve Morse if you don't believe me), and often even that, and there's much more dynamic control.
> 
> Jeff



Funny, I've found the complete reverse. Everyone's hand are built differently, so it's only natural that some people will favour one style over the other. Just because one works, doesn't mean the other doesn't as well.


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## Aghorasilat (May 8, 2007)

Gilbucci said:


> You would practice Economy picking and alternate picking? Why is that? I always thought it was one or the other.



Why limit yourself? Both have different applications on the guitar.


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## Aghorasilat (May 8, 2007)

psyphre said:


> One helps reinforce the other.



VERY TRUE!


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## JBroll (May 8, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> Funny, I've found the complete reverse. Everyone's hand are built differently, so it's only natural that some people will favour one style over the other. Just because one works, doesn't mean the other doesn't as well.



No, how can you physically avoid the limitation of your picking hand going *too* far after a loud snap and completely destroying the timing of your playing? I'm not saying economy picking doesn't work at all, I'm saying that you have more dynamic range because after every stroke you 'turn around' and come back the other way, rather than depending on continuous movement.

Jeff


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## distressed_romeo (May 8, 2007)

JBroll said:


> No, how can you physically avoid the limitation of your picking hand going *too* far after a loud snap and completely destroying the timing of your playing? I'm not saying economy picking doesn't work at all, I'm saying that you have more dynamic range because after every stroke you 'turn around' and come back the other way, rather than depending on continuous movement.
> 
> Jeff



Practice. It doesn't happen immediately, but it's perfectly do-able.


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## Drew (May 8, 2007)

psyphre said:


> Possibly the best synopsis of picking techniques on the web.
> 
> It's funny that you mentioned Nile, as Karl and Dallas has totally different picking styles (Karl using circle picking, and Dallas using Standard style variation 2), yet achieve the same velocity, albeit with wildly different efficiencies (Dallas's picking hand is a blur, Karl's hand barely moves).
> 
> Picking, like tone, is a very personal thing, what works (or is taught) by one may not necessary work with another, so it really does pay to experiment, as your body will definitely give you clues as to what works and what doesn't.



I remember reading that the last time you posted it here. 

It's an EXCELLENT article, but with one caveat - Tuck's a brilliant jazz player, and a very technically accomplished guitarist in his own right, but part of what needs to be understood here is that this article is accordingly not without context. The George Benson style of picking he advocates was developed by a jazz player, and is being championed by a jazz player. It may be a very efficient way of picking, and it's certainly something worth experimenting with, but tonally the tonal benefits he mentions may not be entirely appropriate for, say, an explosive blues solo or a wooly, high-gain shred tone. Still, it gets you thinking about the mechanics of your picking, which is really the ultimate gain here. 

And with that in mind, I can't believe I'm abotu to be the first person here to recomment "Speed Mechanics for Lead Guitar." It's a very comprehensive look at the physical act of playing guitar and focuses on building speed through eliminating restrictions to movement (efficiency, not muscle), and as such is a steal at it's $20 cover price. It may not be life-altering, but it's worth owning. 

Santi's dead on, aside from that - relaxing is the best thing you can do for your picking technique. 

Finally, speed's overrated - I love Rusty cooley and all, but more often than not the most interesting players I hear are rarely the fastest. Get your phrasing down, and no one will notice how fast your 16th note runs are. 


On economy vs. alternate, I'm an alternate picker, myself. I used to be an economy picker, but a guy I was taking lessons from in college, after much cajoling, finally convinced me to give it a shot again, as the picking mechanic sort of serves as its own built-in metronome that helps you lock into a groove for faster picked runs. turns out, he was right. 

There's definitely a gain be be had from practicing both, because they definitely steer you towards two different types of phrasing and have two subtly different sounds to them (alternate is very machine gun, economy is a little mroe fluid and legato), but if I had to choose one, and more importantly if I had to recommend one to a beginner to START with, I'd recommend alternate.


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## distressed_romeo (May 8, 2007)

Drew said:


> I remember reading that the last time you posted it here.
> 
> It's an EXCELLENT article, but with one caveat - Tuck's a brilliant jazz player, and a very technically accomplished guitarist in his own right, but part of what needs to be understood here is that this article is accordingly not without context. The George Benson style of picking he advocates was developed by a jazz player, and is being championed by a jazz player. It may be a very efficient way of picking, and it's certainly something worth experimenting with, but tonally the tonal benefits he mentions may not be entirely appropriate for, say, an explosive blues solo or a wooly, high-gain shred tone. Still, it gets you thinking about the mechanics of your picking, which is really the ultimate gain here.
> 
> ...



 Agree with everything here.

Incidentally, the Benson style is virtually identical to Shawn Lane's picking technique, so it's clearly pretty versatile. I've tried angling the pick that way, but for me it made sweeping virtually impossible, although cross-picking got a little easier, so I've stuck with my regular pick grip.

Drew, I'm suprised that you haven't noticed I end up recommending 'Speed Mechanics...' in every other thread on this section of the boards (that and 'Creative Guitar')... 

You're right about the tonal aspect, but even that can vary from player to player. For instance, Chris Poland is primarily an alternate picker, yet his playing still sounds extremely legato. Conversely, Tom Hess is all strict economy picking, yet he's still capable of peeling off some pretty aggressive sounding runs.


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## Aghorasilat (May 8, 2007)

Drew said:


> Santi's dead on, aside from that - relaxing is the best thing you can do for your picking technique.



Thanks! It is truely the best "Key" to understanding picking. I will be covering a lot of picking stuff in my next CFH DVD.

I think personaly the elbow is like using a BAZOOKA to do Surgery...

I would prefer the wrist and small twich muscles in forearem + small joint muscles in thumb.

Seems more economical & effecient. 

Small twich fibers are FAST AS HELL! you just have to get in "tune:" with them through relaxation..

Look at BRUCE LEE's Jik Chun Choy punches or "straight Blast"...

very Economical punching and you can punch in one second 5 to 10 hits! 

That is achieved through slow training of relaxed movement and "SLOWLY" relaxing into the higher speeds.


Alternate trains your wrist and small fibers in your forearm, 

Economy trains the "thumb" if you can put the two mechanisms together in your alternate you will "FLY".

For fast economy just work the "Thumb" circular movement.

LEARN BOTH....

    




Drew said:


> Finally, speed's overrated - I love Rusty cooley and all, but more often than not the most interesting players I hear are rarely the fastest. Get your phrasing down, and no one will notice how fast your 16th note runs are.



I agree also its how you use it... It should lead into or from a phrase....

if you can for example throw it in a slow tempo but at a 32 not division you will get a very " in the Pocket" sound. 
Listen to Garsed's legato and try to make your picking that....

Or listen to Nuno Bettencourt when he "Speed" picks...

Gilbert uses more phrases that are triplets or 16note triplests (6 notes per beat)...nothing wrong with that however if you use 8 note per beat like Nuno or Maclaughlin you will "sound" faster than what is really happening.

It will also fit better in the pocket, the snare hit becomes the "click" when you are traveling at 8 notes per beat in a 4/4.

Also listen to drummers who do sick fast double bass and emulate their skill with your picking ( Dere Roddy, Sean Reinert, Gene Hogland, Giann Rubio, John L. from Origin, Flow Mounier.)

YouTube - Drum Solo Pay attention to Derek's feet and emulate that with picking. Derek Is SOOOOOO EFFECIENT on drums and economical he does not uses his WHOLE leg to double bass its all in his feet, ankle and small twitch fibers.
And he can play like that for HOURS.....

That is what you need to achieve in the hand and wrist and thumb..elbow is too much in my opinion. Notice how his double bass is not produced from HUGE leg movements....

That would be the equivolent of using your ELBOw.

Peace

Bust a nut with the metronome daily and whoop some ass!

Santiago


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## Drew (May 8, 2007)

Hey, I kinda LIKE using a bazooka for surgery - my dad's got this half-tongue-in-cheek saying; "Amputate first, X-ray later."


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## JBroll (May 8, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> Practice. It doesn't happen immediately, but it's perfectly do-able.



Can you show a clip of the dynamic range you get? I practiced all of that constantly for about a year straight and always found that there was some point where it wasn't possible to hit the string hard enough and still have proper timing. I should note that I play with about 28 pounds of tension on each string on my main guitar and play it so that unplugged it's around speech volume.

Jeff


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## Drew (May 8, 2007)

JBroll said:


> I should note that I play with about 28 pounds of tension on each string on my main guitar and play it so that unplugged it's around speech volume.



Dynamic range =/= volume. If you're hitting hard enough to play unplugged at speaking level, you either talk _very_ quietly or hit _very_ hard, or both. And to be fair, I'm softspoken, heavy handed, and I even generally talk louder than I play. 

If sheer volume is your concern and you don't think economy picking gives you the same volume, that's fine, but calling it dynamic "range" isn't entirely accurate, as that speaks more to the differences between loudest and softest.


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## Aghorasilat (May 8, 2007)

Drew said:


> Hey, I kinda LIKE using a bazooka for surgery - my dad's got this half-tongue-in-cheek saying; "Amputate first, X-ray later."




Oh well...I believe in a more "Preventative Measure"...

But hey whatever works for you.


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## Drew (May 8, 2007)

I'm joking, dude.  My dad's a doctor, and a very cynical one at that. I've inherited a lot of that from him. Well, maybe not the doctor part.


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## JBroll (May 8, 2007)

Drew said:


> Dynamic range =/= volume. If you're hitting hard enough to play unplugged at speaking level, you either talk _very_ quietly or hit _very_ hard, or both. And to be fair, I'm softspoken, heavy handed, and I even generally talk louder than I play.
> 
> If sheer volume is your concern and you don't think economy picking gives you the same volume, that's fine, but calling it dynamic "range" isn't entirely accurate, as that speaks more to the differences between loudest and softest.



I don't talk quietly, but I hit hard enough apparently. I can call it dynamic range because I can easily play as quietly as anyone else; if one end of the range is fixed, the other one must vary in order for the range to vary, so considering I can go as quietly as anyone can (practically speaking, not talking about breathing at the strings obviously) the only way to go is up.

Jeff


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## Jongpil Yun (May 9, 2007)

As far as I can see, Shawn Lane's picking is more of just standard variation 2 with the pick angled slightly the reverse direction, as opposed to Benson's perpendicular pick. Actually I do it kind of the same way. Anyways, it has the added advantage of allowing easy access to the vibrato bar while picking.

Also, people say speed is overrated, but there's plenty of baroque music (not to mention Lane's stuff) that hits all-out shred pace.


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## distressed_romeo (May 9, 2007)

JBroll said:


> Can you show a clip of the dynamic range you get? I practiced all of that constantly for about a year straight and always found that there was some point where it wasn't possible to hit the string hard enough and still have proper timing. I should note that I play with about 28 pounds of tension on each string on my main guitar and play it so that unplugged it's around speech volume.
> 
> Jeff



Unfortunately, not at the moment, as my recording stuff's at my parents' house, and the only guitar I've got with me is my classical...


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## JBroll (May 9, 2007)

No rush, I'd just like to see how far it goes because if I can start getting the same 'pop' in economy that I get in alternate I might start using it more often.

Jeff


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## distressed_romeo (May 9, 2007)

JBroll said:


> No rush, I'd just like to see how far it goes because if I can start getting the same 'pop' in economy that I get in alternate I might start using it more often.
> 
> Jeff



Just a thought...have you tried experimenting with different styles of muting? You might find that a subtle palm mute near the bridge (not a full on mutola though) will give the notes a little more punch when you're economy picking. That can determine the stacatto/legato quality of your playing just as much as the combination of picked and slurred notes...


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## Cancer (May 9, 2007)

Drew said:


> I remember reading that the last time you posted it here.
> 
> It's an EXCELLENT article, but with one caveat - Tuck's a brilliant jazz player, and a very technically accomplished guitarist in his own right, but part of what needs to be understood here is that this article is accordingly not without context.




That, in a nutshell, is PRECISELY why I love that article. Of course there are different styles of picking for different styles of guitar music, but in this instance there is enough significant overlap to give that article more than enough merit. Perhaps if shred were not redefinied by the inclusion of classical and jazz players in the 80's, things would be different, but luckily a few brave soul crossed over into rock and metal during that time period, and bought their finely honed techniques with them, so now we can all benefit. Some of the techniques I don't even AGREE with on a personal level (like the Benson technique of bending your thumb backward... It works like charm, but it hurts me so, I abandoned it, apparently so did Gilbert so go figure...), but I love the Tuck summed it up on one page, I wish this acticle was around when I used to teach.


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## Drew (May 9, 2007)

You totally missed my point - it's not about applying technique from one genre to another, but rather that what might be a tonal benefit for one genre may not work for another, dude.


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## JBroll (May 9, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> Just a thought...have you tried experimenting with different styles of muting? You might find that a subtle palm mute near the bridge (not a full on mutola though) will give the notes a little more punch when you're economy picking. That can determine the stacatto/legato quality of your playing just as much as the combination of picked and slurred notes...



Oh yes - I'm a huge DiMeola freak, I use that a lot. The problem is that when I'm playing acoustics without amplification I often have to get fast runs done as loud as possible, and no amount of muting will help you cut through when the problem is that you're picking half as hard as you should be.


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## The Dark Wolf (May 9, 2007)

JBroll said:


> Oh yes - I'm a huge DiMeola freak, I use that a lot. The problem is that when I'm playing acoustics without amplification I often have to get fast runs done as loud as possible, and no amount of muting will help you cut through when the problem is that you're picking half as hard as you should be.



#1 *sigh* We know you're Jeff. There's a field where you can put your real name in the user profile.

#2. I get what Jeff's saying. When he said "pop", it made sense. Alternate picking allows you to get a degree of oomph and control with the initial pick attack that isn't as easy (or possible?) using the smoother, more legato-sounding economy picking. I agree.


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## JBroll (May 9, 2007)

The Dark Wolf said:


> #1 *sigh* We know you're Jeff. There's a field where you can put your real name in the user profile.
> 
> #2. I get what Jeff's saying. When he said "pop", it made sense. Alternate picking allows you to get a degree of oomph and control with the initial pick attack that isn't as easy (or possible?) using the smoother, more legato-sounding economy picking. I agree.



#1 It's a habit I just haven't gotten out of breaking. Other people get signatures, I just remind myself of my name as often as I need to in order to keep from forgetting it.

#2 I'm glad it made sense to someone else, too - if it's possible to get an attack to be as powerful with economy as it is with alternate, I'll be much more inclined to incorporate more economy picking. This brings me to another question, now that I think about it - does higher tension, and the resulting increase in resistance from the string(s), allow a harder attack with economy picking?


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## sakeido (May 9, 2007)

As far as speed picking goes, I've moved away from using my wrist entirely now. It is all fingers all the way, and I just use my wrist for sweeps and to "change tracks" from one string to another. I used to just do triplets with my fingers but lately have been working on tremolo picking like that and it sounds just as good. If I really really want to dig in on tremolos, I will use my elbow still though. 

To get around the problem of the pick getting caught on the strings, I use my middle finger to anchor as well as lift my hand the exact amount away from the guitar so that I can vary my impact and speed. Its a bit of a trade off at first, but with practice I am able to dig in more and more as my fingers get faster.


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## distressed_romeo (May 9, 2007)

JBroll said:


> #1 It's a habit I just haven't gotten out of breaking. Other people get signatures, I just remind myself of my name as often as I need to in order to keep from forgetting it.
> 
> #2 I'm glad it made sense to someone else, too - if it's possible to get an attack to be as powerful with economy as it is with alternate, I'll be much more inclined to incorporate more economy picking. This brings me to another question, now that I think about it - does higher tension, and the resulting increase in resistance from the string(s), allow a harder attack with economy picking?
> 
> Jeff



Wait, your tension level is higher when economy picking than when alternate picking? I'm the complete opposite (hence my preference for economy when soloing), which could explain why we seem to have arrived at totally opposing conclusions...


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## JBroll (May 9, 2007)

No, I'm asking if you can exert more force on the string when they're at higher tensions before you start losing control. My comfort and muscle tension is the same for both, I just prefer the attack variety of alternate picking; I'm asking if using bigger strings changes the volume you can get away with while economy picking.


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## The Dark Wolf (May 9, 2007)

JBroll said:


> No, I'm asking if you can exert more force on the string when they're at higher tensions before you start losing control. My comfort and muscle tension is the same for both, I just prefer the attack variety of alternate picking; I'm asking if using bigger strings changes the volume you can get away with while economy picking.



I'd say yes in any style of picking. See - SRV. Bigger strings/increased tension definitely have an impact on volume, "girth" of tone, and dynamics.




Bob, AKA, Moderator Who Can Delete, Who Is Also Not Jeff.


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## LordOVchaoS (May 9, 2007)

Not to toot my own horn but aside from a couple of guys on stage I've never met anybody that can pick as fast as me. I'm all elbow when it comes to death metal trem picking. Everything else comes from my wrist except for that because it just works better. It took several years to get super fast at it and I've actually slowed down since I've become a lazy family man  Just keep practicing (and masturbating) and you'll eventually get as fast as you desire. 

OR........

Practice with this guy for a few weeks  YouTube - WORLD RECORD GUITAR SPEED 4-6-07


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## Aghorasilat (May 10, 2007)

LordOVchaoS said:


> Not to toot my own horn but aside from a couple of guys on stage I've never met anybody that can pick as fast as me. url]




Lets be frank here give us Tempos Bpm #'s please...

I am not saying you can't pick faster than everyone.........but numbers do the real talking. 

Peace

Santiago


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## Naren (May 10, 2007)

LordOVchaoS said:


> Practice with this guy for a few weeks  YouTube - WORLD RECORD GUITAR SPEED 4-6-07



Sounded like a friggin' hive of bees.  "Now you don't want one of these to sting ya, cuz it really hurts, ya hear me?"


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## LordOVchaoS (May 10, 2007)

Aghorasilat said:


> Lets be frank here give us Tempos Bpm #'s please...
> 
> I am not saying you can't pick faster than everyone.........but numbers do the real talking.
> 
> ...



Dunno, never had the urge to time myself. I'm not saying I can pick faster than everyone, I've just never met anybody personally that can pick faster.


How bout a clip? This is actually kinda slow for me and I didn't spend much time on it so it's kinda sloppy: http://www.lordovchaos.com/gnx3000_demo.mp3

I used to be faster and this clip is not as fast as I can go now but it's all I've got to show at the moment. I'm just not arrogant enough or motivated enough to sit down with a metronome and brag numbers


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## distressed_romeo (May 10, 2007)

JBroll said:


> No, I'm asking if you can exert more force on the string when they're at higher tensions before you start losing control. My comfort and muscle tension is the same for both, I just prefer the attack variety of alternate picking; I'm asking if using bigger strings changes the volume you can get away with while economy picking.



It can make a difference, yes, although not a huge one in my experience. I've got a pretty light picking attack though.


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## distressed_romeo (May 10, 2007)

LordOVchaoS said:


> I used to be faster and this clip is not as fast as I can go now but it's all I've got to show at the moment. I'm just not arrogant enough or motivated enough to sit down with a metronome and brag numbers



 Let's not turn this into one of those ridiculous 'who's fastest' threads...


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## The Dark Wolf (May 10, 2007)

Aghorasilat said:


> Lets be frank here give us Tempos Bpm #'s please...
> 
> I am not saying you can't pick faster than everyone.........but numbers do the real talking.



He wasn't trying to start a competition. He was just saying the elbow technique, since he has developed it, works very well for him.

No need to post anything, but since he did, fair enough.  That clip sounded pretty cool, BTW, Joe.


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## Aghorasilat (May 10, 2007)

The Dark Wolf said:


> He wasn't trying to start a competition. He was just saying the elbow technique, since he has developed it, works very well for him.
> 
> No need to post anything, but since he did, fair enough.  That clip sounded pretty cool, BTW, Joe.



The clip is very cool however its standard good death metal picking. 

I didn't take it as a competition however I was curious what the actual number was cause he said he never heard anyone pick faster.....

I have seen the whole gamut of fast pickers from death metal to jazz to classical.

Bottom line we are all human with the same wiring and also muscles etc... we may express things differently but up to a certain point there is no I am the fastest in the world...you get me?

I have had this discussion with Derek Roddy once he gets guys that are like I am the fastest at doublebass and then he busts out the metronome and they all of a sudden realize

a) they are not as fast as they thought they were
b) there is always someone faster
c) what may appear to be fast is just a subdivision higher of a slower BPM.

I was not trying to start competition I know I can hold my own with picking I have 2 albums to prove that and Frankly I am still developing and learning from it. I still consider myself a beginner at picking. I have in no way mastered it. 

Lord of chaos yes your picking sounds good on that clip. I am not dogging you I like what you did. 

I just clocked myself my fastest tremolo picking still clean with out sloppy missed notes is 32 notes @ 145bpm. (8 notes per beat)

I honestly I don't see that going faster is all that important in a musical application. 


Peace

Santiago


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## distressed_romeo (May 10, 2007)

Agree 100%

Actually this thread has been nice, as it's brought up a lot of the more important aspects of picking technique rather than just endless talk about pushing the metronome higher.


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## LordOVchaoS (May 10, 2007)

Aghorasilat said:


> I didn't take it as a competition however I was curious what the actual number was cause he said he never heard anyone pick faster.....



No I didn't  



Aghorasilat said:


> Lord of chaos yes your picking sounds good on that clip. I am not dogging you I like what you did.



...and no I didn't (dog you). I was just saying that I've never had the urge to sit and time myself and I've always felt that guys that have "oh yea? well I can do this many bpm!" conversations to be arrogant. Obviously we see things different so we'll have to just agree to disagree.

Like  said I was just trying to tell the guy that I'm the fastest picker I know (not in the world, people I know personally) and I developed my speed and found it more comfortable to go that fast using the elbow technique rather than the wrist.


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## Aghorasilat (May 11, 2007)

LordOVchaoS said:


> Not to toot my own horn but aside from a couple of guys on stage I've never met anybody that can pick as fast as me.



Ok sorry I just took what you said at face value.

Maybe I read more into it than I should have?

Peace

Santiago


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## Jerich (May 11, 2007)

this is a great topic but i must say it is hard to say what you want without others getting offended here!
I spent my whole guitar career tring to play fast sweeps/appreggio's/trem picking and i realized throughout all the going fast stuff i learned normal people only here the slow stuff!
Hey if the jeff Waters style trem picking is your game go for it..but in reality they still cannot write songs to save thier lives.
That video was a great example of the Guy at Home wood shedding his ass off with nothing to prove for it but that video.
I found out that "technique done for techniques sake never is any good at all"


great topic.


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## Aghorasilat (May 11, 2007)

Jerich said:


> this is a great topic but i must say it is hard to say what you want without others getting offended here!
> I spent my whole guitar career tring to play fast sweeps/appreggio's/trem picking and i realized throughout all the going fast stuff i learned normal people only here the slow stuff!
> Hey if the jeff Waters style trem picking is your game go for it..but in reality they still cannot write songs to save thier lives.
> That video was a great example of the Guy at Home wood shedding his ass off with nothing to prove for it but that video.
> ...




ABSOLUTELY TRUE!

I have made it a point to make MUSIC and not worry about speed. Yea the speed is there but its not the music itself nor my playing's essence. That is one thing I always loved about Chuck Schuldiner & Paul Masvidal & Jason Gobel they could all PICK riffs fast as FUCK...but it was always about the music.

Peace

Santiago


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## distressed_romeo (May 11, 2007)

Aghorasilat said:


> ABSOLUTELY TRUE!
> 
> I have made it a point to make MUSIC and not worry about speed. Yea the speed is there but its not the music itself nor my playing's essence. That is one thing I always loved about Chuck Schuldiner & Paul Masvidal & Jason Gobel they could all PICK riffs fast as FUCK...but it was always about the music.
> 
> ...



Agree 100%.

I've long since dropped out of the metronome olympics. I think it was Drew who said recently that the fastest players are (with a few exceptions) the least interesting.

Like I said, this thread has brought up a lot of the more important aspects of picking, namely tone and dynamic control, rather than speed.

Jeff, I did a little A-B testing with economy and alternate picking on my classical guitar this evening (it's been a while since I focused on pure technique, as I don't have a lot of practice time at the moment due to exams). I'll stick by what I said that econony picking (for me) yields more dynamic control and flexibility when it comes to note-groupings, but alternate picking is definitely the way to go for the old-school machine gun sound. Isn't it great that we have both available?


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## JBroll (May 11, 2007)

I'd like to point out that the discussion has not spent much time in 'look at how kewl my pciking is, lol' and that a thread dedicated to technique is not necessarily promoting technique for technique's sake. Technique is what you use to make the music, and I don't believe I've caught much in the way of shameless self promoted wankery, so it would be nice if we dropped anything that could lead to 'playing fast without soul'/'fast playing sucks'-'no it rulz'-'ur mom'/'the reason metal guitarists play so many notes is that they can't find the right one'/whatever and didn't pick it back up. Oh, and if I see any further transgressions against Annihilator I will napalm your entire zip code.

DR, I understand but clips would still be nice - I set my amp gain very low and use my picking to get me from classic rock crunch to metal rhythm, so if all of a sudden there has been some breakthrough where economy picking became ten times as powerful as it was when I used it predominantly I'll be somewhat amused. If you feel like seeing what we can get away with I'll DI some stuff and we can see more about how this all works.


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## distressed_romeo (May 11, 2007)

JBroll said:


> I'd like to point out that the discussion has not spent much time in 'look at how kewl my pciking is, lol' and that a thread dedicated to technique is not necessarily promoting technique for technique's sake. Technique is what you use to make the music, and I don't believe I've caught much in the way of shameless self promoted wankery, so it would be nice if we dropped anything that could lead to 'playing fast without soul'/'fast playing sucks'-'no it rulz'-'ur mom'/'the reason metal guitarists play so many notes is that they can't find the right one'/whatever and didn't pick it back up. Oh, and if I see any further transgressions against Annihilator I will napalm your entire zip code.
> 
> DR, I understand but clips would still be nice - I set my amp gain very low and use my picking to get me from classic rock crunch to metal rhythm, so if all of a sudden there has been some breakthrough where economy picking became ten times as powerful as it was when I used it predominantly I'll be somewhat amused. If you feel like seeing what we can get away with I'll DI some stuff and we can see more about how this all works.



Yeah, I agree that I really ought to have something to back all this up. Once I get home and have all my recording stuff to hand I'll record something.


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## Aghorasilat (May 11, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> Yeah, I agree that I really ought to have something to back all this up. Once I get home and have all my recording stuff to hand I'll record something.




Although I do a lot of economy picking I have yest to use it on an aghora album yet. Actually no I used it a bit on acoustic on track "lotus".

But I will use it on solo record and post some clips when ready.

I love the sound of economy on Acoustic instruments.

peace

Santiago


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## distressed_romeo (May 11, 2007)

Aghorasilat said:


> I love the sound of economy on Acoustic instruments.



Agree 100%. Actually, Jeff, have you experimented with economy picking on acoustic guitar? It really helped me get the technique down initially.


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## distressed_romeo (May 11, 2007)

JBroll said:


> DR, I understand but clips would still be nice - I set my amp gain very low and use my picking to get me from classic rock crunch to metal rhythm, so if all of a sudden there has been some breakthrough where economy picking became ten times as powerful as it was when I used it predominantly I'll be somewhat amused. If you feel like seeing what we can get away with I'll DI some stuff and we can see more about how this all works.



Just a thought...for heavy rhythm guitar I very rarely economy pick...it's almost all down-picking or alternate picking.


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## distressed_romeo (May 11, 2007)

Sorry, I've just realised after rereading all my earlier posts that it must sound like I'm talking myself round in circles...the point I'm trying to make is that IMHO there isn't as big a divide tonally and technically between alternate picking and economy picking as a lot of people assume.


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## Aghorasilat (May 12, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> Agree 100%. Actually, Jeff, have you experimented with economy picking on acoustic guitar? It really helped me get the technique down initially.



Me too..I never did economy Pickig untill 2 years ago. I was before strict alternate.


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## JBroll (May 12, 2007)

I spent months on that (that was what I learned on, and I still warm up on an acoustic quite often) when I was learning it the first time around. It just wasn't loud and present enough, no matter how much I put into it. I could do it perfectly on an electric but with the acoustic I either didn't make enough sound or hit the strings so hard that each note had basically an individual downstroke instead of a sweep - granted, I like things really loud, but I couldn't get it to fit with everything else.


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## The Dark Wolf (May 12, 2007)

JBroll said:


> It just wasn't loud and present enough, no matter how much I put into it. I could do it perfectly on an electric but with the acoustic I either didn't make enough sound or hit the strings so hard that each note had basically an individual downstroke instead of a sweep - granted, I like things really loud, but I couldn't get it to fit with everything else.



This makes perfect sense. I'm having a hard time seeing how it could be otherwise, personally.


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## distressed_romeo (May 12, 2007)

Ah...that makes sense...I play with a comparatively delicate touch on electric and acoustic (I still get decent volume out of the acoustic, but I don't try and get it as loud as possible). That's something I've deliberately cultivated since I started playing, as I reasoned pretty early on that if your default dynamic range is somewhere in the middle-zone, you've got more range to go louder or quieter, meaning more dynamic range, than if you start off at one of the extremes.


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## distressed_romeo (May 12, 2007)

Aghorasilat said:


> Me too..I never did economy Pickig untill 2 years ago. I was before strict alternate.



I started it about 2 years ago as well, although it wasn't a conscious decision. There was a period where suddenly a lot of licks I was having trouble picking suddenly started coming out perfectly, and it wasn't until later that I realised my hands were naturally falling into economy picking patterns. I figured 'fuck it...go with what works' and developed it a bit, as it comes pretty naturally to me compared to alternate picking, although I still practice that too...


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## Jongpil Yun (May 18, 2007)

I started economy picking pretty much the moment I started playing and never looked back. It seemed what was natural -- minimizing how much space you have to travel.


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## Aghorasilat (Jul 3, 2007)

Jongpil Yun said:


> I started economy picking pretty much the moment I started playing and never looked back. It seemed what was natural -- minimizing how much space you have to travel.



to me its like one is yin one is yang you need them both to fully be expressive on the instrument.


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## distressed_romeo (Jul 3, 2007)

Aghorasilat said:


> to me its like one is yin one is yang you need them both to fully be expressive on the instrument.



Another thing to remember is that pick-style guitar is still less than a hundred years old (although it has precedents in other things, I know), and so the technique is still very much in its nascent stages. There've been huge technical advances made, but there's still no such thing as a formal, standardised approach to developing picking technique in there is for, say, bowing the violin. However, we're reaching the point where there's been so much pedagogy on both alterate and economy picking that you really could, and should, be able to become at proficient in both approaches.

This is one of the reasons I'm looking forward to Troy Grady's 'Cracking the Code' film.


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## Zepp88 (Jul 3, 2007)

"economy picking" like sweeping is better for me. To my ears alternate picked solos can easially(sp) sound noodling and annoying, sweeping different patterns sounds better, is more interesting, and has turned out to be more comfortable for me.


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## Aghorasilat (Jul 5, 2007)

The pick itself has been used in many instruments usually in the early days its been a commonpiece of human or animal bone.


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## distressed_romeo (Jul 6, 2007)

Aghorasilat said:


> The pick itself has been used in many instruments usually in the early days its been a commonpiece of human or animal bone.



Lute players used to use quills, believe it or not. IIRC Ancient Greek lyre players used to use little bits of ivory, or something similar.


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