# Depression and Guitar Playing



## Discoqueen (Jan 25, 2018)

hey y’all 

We’re all musicians, so I imagine a lot of us have one diagnosis or another. I have Major Depresion with Psychotic Features and this illness has been kicking my butt. I feel tired a lot (like heavy with fatigue) and experience anhedonia, like, every day usually (loss of pleasure/enjoyment). So just my arms feel heavy so when I sit down to play after a couple minutes I’m already just not wanting to play anymore, or I won’t really feel any gratification at all, which really sucks. I know generally with any art or creative endeavor, but I’m living the dibilitating levels right now so I am pretty sure it’s not just a funk, and it’s been most of the last couple years, too (which lol hardly feel like a minute when I think back.) 

So, you know, I feel bad about not practicing so much because I really like thinking of myself as a guitar player (not meaning having the title, but just having this craft I’ve devoted so much to.) 

I’m wondering if y’all had some experience with this? Maybe some advice because I really want to play more but eh at the same time I feel shitty and playing takes energy I don’t even feel is there.


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## odibrom (Jan 25, 2018)

I think it helps to have something objective to do, so when it is done, one feels fulfillment, which brings up some joy. This is the key, being objective.

I also think It helps to take walks in the nature, so if you can, do so, hug a tree, take some time off, pick a friend or two and go for a walk/ride. Go out camping, you'll feel re-energized and re-connected with yourself. Go see some different horizon, go to the beach and just be there hearing the waves hit the sand. It soothes one's inner self...


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## DudeManBrother (Jan 25, 2018)

Maybe try some deep delay pedal and get the sounds to just drone out into the deepest aether and find a peaceful place in your mind that doctors haven't convinced you is fucked up yet. 
Meditation doesn't have to be upright lotus position chanting ohm. Use your guitar to lift you to heights you presently don't believe your capable of achieving on your own. Find a pulse, build it up, and escape for a while. Eat more fruit. Drink more water. Remember to smile even when you don't feel like it. Fake it til you make it.


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## Discoqueen (Jan 26, 2018)

odibrom said:


> I think it helps to have something objective to do, so when it is done, one feels fulfillment, which brings up some joy. This is the key, being objective.
> 
> I also think It helps to take walks in the nature, so if you can, do so, hug a tree, take some time off, pick a friend or two and go for a walk/ride. Go out camping, you'll feel re-energized and re-connected with yourself. Go see some different horizon, go to the beach and just be there hearing the waves hit the sand. It soothes one's inner self...



Thanks, I’ve been avoiding setting goals because I didn’t wanna ha resent having to do something when I was exhausted but now I think I will come up with a few to try to get finished. And I think I will go for more hikes, that’s a great idea  



DudeManBrother said:


> Maybe try some deep delay pedal and get the sounds to just drone out into the deepest aether and find a peaceful place in your mind that doctors haven't convinced you is fucked up yet.
> Meditation doesn't have to be upright lotus position chanting ohm. Use your guitar to lift you to heights you presently don't believe your capable of achieving on your own. Find a pulse, build it up, and escape for a while. Eat more fruit. Drink more water. Remember to smile even when you don't feel like it. Fake it til you make it.



Yeah, that actually sounds very inticing, I would have never thought of that, thank you!


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## Drew (Jan 26, 2018)

I don't have any diagnosed mental illnesses or anything, and for the most part I'm a reasonably balanced adult - some anxiety, some days where I just don't feel up to anything, but that's not the norm for me and I don't think any of that is happening at a concerning or unhealthy level. So I don't know if I'm the most helpful person to weigh in here.

But, I certainly feel _better_ when I've been playing music. I work a very non-creative job involving numbers and spreadsheets and analysis, and I think having a creative outlet helps me remain balanced - I come home after work, pick up a guitar, and feel like a human again after a couple minutes.

I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with setting goals provided they don't become a source of pressure or stress, but if you're worried they could be, then definitely don't let that become a barrier. Maybe just try to play _something_ daily, even if it's just flicking your low E string as you walk past your guitar in a music stand or something - some days, that's the most I do, too (I've never consciously told myself to play something every day, but actually maybe that isn't a bad goal for me to set for myself, even if it's just something like that where I ring out one note on a guitar as I walk out the door). I think just the sound and the feel of a guitar can be empowering and exciting, and provide a valuable counterbalance to a different part of my life.

I'll second the go on walks or go hiking and get more exercise, if nothing else because I definitely sleep better when I've been active, and I'm definitely less anxious/stressed/down when I'm not a fucking zombie.  And, finally, I guess I'll also say that I'm NOT a medical professional, and while I can offer you some general observations that I've found generally work for me, everyone's struggle is different, and I have plenty of friends who have successfully dealt with crippling levels of anxiety, stress, and depression through some combination of exercise (an ex of mine found yoga really helpful), therapy, and medication. This is one of those things where whatever you do doesn't matter, as long as it works.

Idunno. Anything I can do to help, let me know.


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## budda (Jan 26, 2018)

I suggest getting treated for your diagnosis.


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## Edika (Jan 26, 2018)

budda said:


> I suggest getting treated for your diagnosis.



QFT if you haven't already that is. 

For me learning to play the guitar in my early 20's actually took me out of a really bad mental state. At that point of my life everything seemed meaningless and I was neglecting my uni studies. I got motivated and got things back on track. I've been through similar situations when I know I should be practicing through the years and just felt like a chore. Up until I actually picked up the guitar and then I would play for 2 hours without noticing the time pass by. So not sure what to advise you rather than get professional help if you're not already getting some and try to find things to help you get out of that mindset. Especially don't fuss about how you're not playing enough guitar as it has the opposite effect.


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## BlackMastodon (Jan 26, 2018)

I've barely touched my guitars in the past couple years and for sure haven't taken them out of their cases since I bought my house back in July. It's a combination of not making the time for it and being unmotivated when I do try to pick them up. It's very easy to get frustrated and self-conscious of my abilities deteriorating, so I try to not set any standards for myself.

I just play for myself, almost always unplugged, and noodle around with some covers I like to play. Or do something similar to what DudeManBrother is saying, messing around with effects and making cool soundscapes to get lost in. I never even thought of it as a form of therapy until I read his post.

Depression blows ass, and I absolutely don't want to repeat those lame-ass memes where people suggest you don't need pills because all you need it fresh air or some such horse shit. If it's keeping you from doing the things you want to do then definitely look for some help if you haven't, even if it's just to get an idea of how to handle it. That being said, regular exercise, Vitamin D (sunlight), and healthy eating habits can help a lot with how you feel mentally and physically. Maybe some days when you know it's worse you can ease up on guitar playing so you don't get discouraged, but at the same time you don't have to think that you have to make up for it in some way down the road.

I think you just need to let it come organically and try not to live up to any standards until you make for yourself until you get into a good positive grove.


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## Obsidian Soul (Jan 27, 2018)

I'm in the same boat although I haven't been diagnosed. I find it hard to pick up the guitar most days,which I know is frustrating for my friend because he wants to release some music soon. However,when I get over the hurdle and record,I go on a little spree and then it starts all over again.


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## Winspear (Jan 27, 2018)

BlackMastodon said:


> I've barely touched my guitars in the past couple years and for sure haven't taken them out of their cases since I bought my house back in July. It's a combination of not making the time for it and being unmotivated when I do try to pick them up. It's very easy to get frustrated and self-conscious of my abilities deteriorating, so I try to not set any standards for myself.
> ....
> I think you just need to let it come organically and try not to live up to any standards until you make for yourself until you get into a good positive grove.



This was very much me. 
I spent my early years being able to do exactly what I wanted all the time pretty much. In my early 20s I found myself with drastically less time. It took me years to get used to the idea of not being able to sit and work on music for hours on end every day. I'd long ago convinced myself it was pointless to bother at all if I couldn't really dedicate myself to it. 
Every couple of months I'd manage to play for a few hours for a couple of days and just feel bad about how much I'd deteriorated, and how I wouldn't have a couple of days free to practice again for another few weeks etc. 
It's taken me a while but I just had to get to a point where I could force myself to pick up the guitar for 15-30 minutes each day and just play, without a goal. It VERY quickly became clear that that's all I needed. That that can sustain me and keep me happy and keep my technique growing. I've just been coming up with a little exercise or practising a specific lick each day. Something totally fresh. After 30 minutes I can see significant progress and it's satisfying. It makes me want to do the same again the next day. I still miss being able to play lots but this will keep me going and ensure that when I do have a day off or something to play and record, I wont spend it feeling down about how bad my playing is because I haven't touched a guitar in months.


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## odibrom (Jan 27, 2018)

... all about finding something objective to do, it doesn't have to be anything huge. A big walk starts with small footsteps.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jan 27, 2018)

DudeManBrother said:


> Maybe try some deep delay pedal and get the sounds to just drone out into the deepest aether and find a peaceful place in your mind that doctors haven't convinced you is fucked up yet.
> Meditation doesn't have to be upright lotus position chanting ohm. Use your guitar to lift you to heights you presently don't believe your capable of achieving on your own. Find a pulse, build it up, and escape for a while. Eat more fruit. Drink more water. Remember to smile even when you don't feel like it. Fake it til you make it.


The "haven't convinced you is fucked up" part is true. The power of thought and perspective within the mind is powerful, and a doctor generally tries to convince you of shit to put you on shitty meds. I generally like to go outside for a walk and play guitar more, which has given me less to be angry or upset about. Might work for the OP; dunno though.

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot the part about water and fruit. Eating/drinking less junk and replacing it with, you know, actual food, is pretty beneficial as well.


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## wankerness (Jan 27, 2018)

Depression can be a really serious condition, especially if you have other mental conditions attached, and don't let anyone try to convince you that you should avoid the doctor and can fix it just by thinking more positively or getting more exercise or whatever. If you have a really serious condition that's about the worst advice you can get. Those are things you should also do, yes, but it's really irresponsible and dangerous to write it off like that and say that it's nothing. Doctors aren't evil and neither is medication if that's what they think is necessary. Try seeing a counselor or psychiatrist at the least. Ask around and see if any people you know have one that they trust.


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## lurè (Jan 27, 2018)

^This.
If you have been diagnosed with severe depression your doctor has probably given to you some kind of therapy (medicines, psychotherapy or both).
Eating healty, doing sports or going out with friends are surely helpful but can't solve the problem at the root.
Building a trust with a specialist (psychiatrist, psychotherapist) is a very important aspect for a succesful recovery.


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## BlackMastodon (Jan 27, 2018)

^^These.

ALSO, before I forget, try picking up a cheap bass if you have some spare cash!

I did this a few years ago when I first started getting into these funks and it was very refreshing. At first, it was just to noodle around and try something new before picking up a guitar, but then I decided to get down to the basics and start learning how to actually play a bass (alternate plucking, walking up and down strings, etc.). It was cool to get down to the basics again and pick things up from the ground level and start to learn a new instrument that still felt familiar. There was also the added benefit of picking up a guitar after playing a bass for about 30 minutes and feeling properly warmed up and ready to tackle more challenging songs/licks. Playing the much wider frets on a bass seemed to stretch my fingers out incredibly well in a way that I couldn't figure out how to do with a guitar.


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## lurè (Jan 27, 2018)

Also don't feel guilty if your are not able to play as before.
Depression can make very hard even the things you enjoy most and you take it for granted like playing, eating and sleeping.
Once you start a therapy things will get better, you'll see some improvements over time and the will to play will come back.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jan 27, 2018)

wankerness said:


> Depression can be a really serious condition, especially if you have other mental conditions attached, and don't let anyone try to convince you that you should avoid the doctor and can fix it just by thinking more positively or getting more exercise or whatever. If you have a really serious condition that's about the worst advice you can get. Those are things you should also do, yes, but it's really irresponsible and dangerous to write it off like that and say that it's nothing. Doctors aren't evil and neither is medication if that's what they think is necessary. Try seeing a counselor or psychiatrist at the least. Ask around and see if any people you know have one that they trust.


So is taking pills from some quack doctor who doesn't have much of a clue of what they are talking about, and are paid more to pedal drugs than solutions. Some of those pills increase thoughts of suicide "in teens or young adults," which isn't entirely true, because it does so to anyone that already is thinking about suicide. One pill I highly suggest you and everyone else stay away from is Cymbalta. That shit should be taken off the market, and the people pedalling that shit sued into the welfare line.

So, no I don't think they should just "do nothing but stay positive." I think that pills should also be researched thoroughly, and they should also look at things in their diet that may also be contributing to their mental state.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jan 27, 2018)

Anyways, I'd strongly suggest getting rid of people in your life that affect your mental wellbeing in a manner that makes things worse.


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## CapinCripes (Jan 27, 2018)

Speaking as somebody who has been hospitalized twice in the past due to my major depression it is very important to keep up on your doctors about how you feel any medications you are on are working as well as they could be. many medications have diminishing returns over time and will either have to be increased in dosage or changed entirely to a different medication to do the most good. I would not ignore medication either as that may be the worst thing you can do, doing so in the past lead to me ceasing to function and put me away in a hospital for 2 weeks. Would not recommend. The reality about Major depression is that it is caused by a chemical imbalance in your brain that needs to be offset in some way.


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## Discoqueen (Jan 27, 2018)

Hey y’all thank you for the tips, insight and encouragement  

For context, I do have a Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner who handles my meds and a therapist that I see every week. I’ve tried all sorts of meds in the past and am now on two that help keep me from the dangerous levels of depression by evening my mood and helping it stay that way when things get stressful. I avoided meds for a few years, because the first time I was on them one made me hallucinate, and one kinda sucked the soul outta me, but now I understand meds are going to be trial and error and you really have to talk to your prescriber frequently. 
Since this is my fourth major depressive episode, I’ve been cautioned that since this is a recurrent thing it’s all about managing symptoms and I just ha that’s where most of the energy goes. I do try to do the whole exercise and proper nutrition and hydration thing. Haha but I should probably focus a little more on that ^.~
Kinda sadly, right now is the best I’ve felt in the past year, and I still have days where I don’t do anything because I just feel nothing. 

I do really like and appreciate the suggestions of trying something new with the music and trying to set a musical goal (but not attach too much pressure to it).


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## Discoqueen (Jan 27, 2018)

Drew said:


> Maybe just try to play _something_ daily, even if it's just flicking your low E string as you walk past your guitar in a music stand or something - some days, that's the most I do, too (I've never consciously told myself to play something every day, but actually maybe that isn't a bad goal for me to set for myself, even if it's just something like that where I ring out one note on a guitar as I walk out the door). I think just the sound and the feel of a guitar can be empowering and exciting, and provide a valuable counterbalance to a different part of my life


That’s really thoughtful advice , thank you  



Obsidian Soul said:


> I'm in the same boat although I haven't been diagnosed. I find it hard to pick up the guitar most days,which I know is frustrating for my friend because he wants to release some music soon. However,when I get over the hurdle and record,I go on a little spree and then it starts all over again.


If you meant you also feel depressed, unmotivated, and all those other things to a point that it is effecting your life, I really hope you can get to a doctor or a therapist soon! Don’t rely on a GP for meds. 



CapinCripes said:


> Speaking as somebody who has been hospitalized twice in the past due to my major depression it is very important to keep up on your doctors about how you feel any medications you are on are working as well as they could be. many medications have diminishing returns over time and will either have to be increased in dosage or changed entirely to a different medication to do the most good. I would not ignore medication either as that may be the worst thing you can do, doing so in the past lead to me ceasing to function and put me away in a hospital for 2 weeks. Would not recommend. The reality about Major depression is that it is caused by a chemical imbalance in your brain that needs to be offset in some way.


I was lucky and when I was taken to the hospital, they decided I wasn’t a threat to myself or others. Which, that whole trip was absolutely fucked for a few reasons, so I’m glad they didn’t make me say. And thank you for your advice about really keeping up with the meds. I don’t have many people around who have struggled with depression this severely so it’s so good to hear from someone who seems to know a lot about it.


And everyone else who I haven’t quoted, thank you again!


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## Discoqueen (Jan 27, 2018)

Drew said:


> Maybe just try to play _something_ daily, even if it's just flicking your low E string as you walk past your guitar in a music stand or something - some days, that's the most I do, too (I've never consciously told myself to play something every day, but actually maybe that isn't a bad goal for me to set for myself, even if it's just something like that where I ring out one note on a guitar as I walk out the door). I think just the sound and the feel of a guitar can be empowering and exciting, and provide a valuable counterbalance to a different part of my life


That’s really thoughtful advice , thank you  



Obsidian Soul said:


> I'm in the same boat although I haven't been diagnosed. I find it hard to pick up the guitar most days,which I know is frustrating for my friend because he wants to release some music soon. However,when I get over the hurdle and record,I go on a little spree and then it starts all over again.


If you meant you also feel depressed, unmotivated, and all those other things to a point that it is effecting your life, I really hope you can get to a doctor or a therapist soon! Don’t rely on a GP for meds. 



CapinCripes said:


> Speaking as somebody who has been hospitalized twice in the past due to my major depression it is very important to keep up on your doctors about how you feel any medications you are on are working as well as they could be. many medications have diminishing returns over time and will either have to be increased in dosage or changed entirely to a different medication to do the most good. I would not ignore medication either as that may be the worst thing you can do, doing so in the past lead to me ceasing to function and put me away in a hospital for 2 weeks. Would not recommend. The reality about Major depression is that it is caused by a chemical imbalance in your brain that needs to be offset in some way.


I was lucky and when I was taken to the hospital, they decided I wasn’t a threat to myself or others. Which, that whole trip was absolutely fucked for a few reasons, so I’m glad they didn’t make me say. And thank you for your advice about really keeping up with the meds. I don’t have many people around who have struggled with depression this severely so it’s so good to hear from someone who seems to know a lot about it.


And everyone else who I haven’t quoted, thank you again!


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## myrtorp (Jan 27, 2018)

Something I like to do is get some drums going in my software (maybe there is drum tracks on youtube aswell) and just chugg along, see what i come up with. Dont forget to record any riffs you like!! It can be super hard to remember something the next day 

I dont think you should force practise if you dont feel like it. I sometimes feel bad about not working on my chops as much as I want but then I realize I have enough skill to write music I enjoy and that is all that really matters. 

I hope you will feel better!


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## odibrom (Jan 27, 2018)

I don't have any direct experience with depression as you apear to have. The furthest I've know is someone once close to the family who got completely psyco with meds. Brain meds are... difficult to deal with, they'll do you good in one way but very harm in another, so pay much attention to that.

As I think of the subject (I'm no doctor nor anything related to mental wellness besides martial arts), depression is a condition that grows from within, and as so it must be fought from within. Pills do not work from within the soul/mind. Pills/meds are an external help that will work on your chemical balance and create a sense of well being... for as long as the pill works, then another pill must be taken and so on. I'm not saying these aren't important or that they should be banned, not at all, only that they aren't a long term solution in my point of view, only a patch (an important one for many).

Trust your doctors and your meds, but *also work your inner self*. Finding something objective to do is forcing the mind to be focused in something else that is not depression, specially if the something is small, unimportant like washing the dishes. The thing in doing objective things is that one doesn't have to question them, it's just doing and as so, the mind is refocused into those things. Eventually, you may find some joy in doing those things. Though this may seam like "doing nothing" because of how small they are, it actually is the opposite, you are doing something that keeps the mind busy. A busy mind has less time for depressive thoughts. So, find something objective to do, as small as making your bed, but with all the details. Then go for a walk in the park with a different path every day, so there will be some novelty to *challenge your mind*. *Contemplate small things* like a bird dipping in the water pond or a stray cat liking his parts in an alley. Find your joy in small things, small details, take pics with your phone or buy a camera and learn photography. These are only silly examples, I'm sure you can find your path. Again, trust your meds and doctors, but also work your inner self.

"God is in the details"... (replace the word god with whatever you feel more comfortable with, but I think you now what I mean)...


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## Discoqueen (Jan 29, 2018)

Yeah, it comes from within my brain  ^.~

People don’t consider too often how much a strain illness will put on the ill’s psyche. I’m not spiritual but what has shocked me is how profound depression can be in its darkest times. I almost discover the depths of my *soul* because the turmoil seems to keep digging deeper whencit is bad. It takes all of my cleverness just to decide if I should stay still or try to move forward, and even then, I can’t always know what’s best, just like anyone else.

I think your advice should be aimed more towards the passing kind of depression. Anhedonia is the loss of gratification in most of all things: forcing a mind that’s prone to anxious and obsessive thoughts and psychotic symptoms is really hard, and *soldiering through* can lead to very detrimental results. I really appreciate the way you’re coming at this, though. I don’t know that a lot of people realize the implications of depression in a metaphysical sense. Suicidal ideation is a crappy symptom where your brain just shows you having killed your self (intrusive thoughts are onces that just pop into your head, kinda like little vignettes. These are not the same as suicidal thoughts or behaviors because ideations just happen on their own— I’m just stressing this because for me this is a normal thing but a lot of people find it disturbing, but it is a symptom and one I can manage well). I wonder how detached or jaded a person can be after having all that kind of craziness play out in their head for years and years. You are most certainly right to say that it’s the little things though, and I’m gonna remember that  thanks


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## lurè (Jan 29, 2018)

Forcing your mind into something (expecially new things) is probably the worst thing you can do right now.
A synergistic medical and psychic therapy should help you regain the will to do the things you once enjoyed.
Working on your inner self it's hard when the problem lies right there and getting too close to the source can be detrimental when mind is vulnerable.
I don't know if anhedonia is fueling the depression leading you towards suicidal ideation or it's depression that is causing anhedonia (I've no medical preparation at all).
In any case if your a getting a treatment you're putting yourself on track for a succesful recovery.


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## budda (Jan 29, 2018)

OP, have you started looking into treatments at all?


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## TedEH (Jan 29, 2018)

Discoqueen said:


> We’re all musicians, so I imagine a lot of us have one diagnosis or another.


I'm a bit late to this thread I think, but the very first thing I see when starting at post #1 is this. I think this is a terrible point to start at- the sort of romanticism of depression that suggests it's coupled with artistry and expression- suggesting that "healthy" people aren't expressive, or that musicians and artists are driven by psychological issues.

In the case that you (not you specifically, but the generic "you") have a legitimate issue to work through, one of the more productive things I think one could do is to decouple the reality of the situation from the romanticism surrounding it- being clinically depressed doesn't make one "deep" or artistic or able to be more meaningfully expressive or anything like that.

I don't mean that to say that a creative outlet can't be therapeutic, but there there isn't any direct connection between playing an instrument and mental health. Some people play guitar more when they're depressed or in poor spirits or whatever else have you, and others do the opposite and play less.


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## Drew (Jan 29, 2018)

Discoqueen said:


> That’s really thoughtful advice , thank you


Hell, it's something that I realized as I was writing it that *I* need to do.  

Music's important. I need to remind myself _how_ important more often, so I don't lose sight of that.


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## Vyn (Jan 29, 2018)

I blew up mentally in a big way when I lost my partner nearly 4 years ago (4 years will be in July this year). Quit work, quit studying, quit sport, everything. Could not function. Went through a stack of different counselors and psychologists. I never ended up on medication because I refused to, mainly because I was scared of how it would change me. In hindsight, I probably should have at least considered it or tried it out because I was rather unhinged and suicidal.

I'm lucky enough to have two amazing friends who would put up with me ringing them at 2AM in the morning, sobbing down the line and they'd just listen to whatever I had to vent or if I was being particularly stupid, they'd talk me out of doing something I regret or worse. They kept me together for long enough for me to be able to develop the strength to keep myself together. Still have the occasional day where everything is complete hell and too much, but I'm able to grit my own teeth and tell myself I can pull through.

I remember when my partner died I refused to play guitar for 6 months. The only guitar I owned at that point was the one she had given me for my birthday 3 years earlier so I'd just burst into tears even when I'd just so much as look at the case. Eventually I was in a guitar store and purchased another guitar to play. Took a long while before I could even open the case of the guitar she gave me, let alone play it. I think I played it 5-6 times in the last 2-3 years. It's only in the last month I've taking it into the local guitar tech to be properly set up as I'm ready to start playing it full time again.

These days I make sure I do 45-60 minutes of scales every morning and evening, just as a ritualistic way to wake up of a morning and wind down after work in the evening. It doesn't feel like I'm forcing it because I've done it for the last 2 years now, it's pretty much like having a shower or a cup of coffee, it's that routine I don't think about it. Sometimes there will be weeks on end where that's all I'll do without actually playing a song or writing something. But it keeps everything sharp for when I'm really feeling it and stops that depressed feeling that occurs when you haven't played in ages and miss the standard of playing you once were at.

I can't say things get 'better' because it doesn't feel like the right word, however one's ability to deal with shit certainly improves over time.


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## odibrom (Jan 29, 2018)

@Discoqueen Great accomplishments come by mainly by our focus on the things that are really important. A great accomplishment isn't the same for everyone, to some, opening the eyes every day could be thought as so, to others is only conquering the world is enough. It is all about scaling things and get them in perspective. History is full of stories of insignificant people doing amazing things at the edge of survival. Their thought was generally like "it's just around the corner", or in other words "I'm too stubborn to quit/die here" (_The __Revenant _movie is an example). The point I'm thinking is, you're still here, not talking about suicide thoughts, but HERE as talking in SS.ORG about yourself. This means you're already fighting back, you WANT to overcome your difficulties. GRAB THIS POSTURE, don't let it go. Your WILL is everything in the process. As soon as you decide you WILL or you WON'T, the game is already laid down to you.

As far as psiche goes, I'm in the martial arts line of thought, which is... Difficulties are just that, obstacles that we have to learn to overcome, either coming from within or from somewhere else. Since depression is a "self grown one", it means one has to dive deep into the soul and deal with it. The problem is what to deal with when one finds nothing apparently "wrong" when searching. Again, I'm no health professional, so take these words with lots of seasoning, however allow me to lay down some ideas. Warning, long rumbling text ahead.

In order to "permanently" solve your quest, you must understand and face what triggers those depressive feelings. Questions like _what_, _when _and _why _are to be answered but may apear impossible at the start. So, I'm going on the opposite direction now, don't fight the feeling, accept that it exists and lives within you, that it defines you in a certain way but it ain't you. Acceptance is probably the first step of not fighting it and the path to a healthy cure. Acceptance opens the door to contemplation, because you became a spectator of yourself, and as so, you are shown the surroundings of the previously clouded triggers. You identify the triggers there, contemplating yourself in the dark of the depression, accepting that it is part of you. The next step is to find a pattern on those triggers, and believe me, they aren't random, though may seam like so. This may take as much as seconds or years to find, it is dependent on how committed you are on your inner contemplation and on your sharpness into finding connections between things (solving puzzles is a nice exercise for this). When a pattern is found, and I'm sure you'll find it/them, don't rush, don't fight, keep contemplating the moment for the questions shall be answered. Don't try to find outside causes nor to blame this or that, for that is dealing in the past and you already know what it is like. The purpose on knowing the answers is to be brave enough to step out of the circle that keeps feeding back, and restart your life/soul/body-mind thing. Once you have identified triggers, causes and timings, you can avoid them and let them pass besides you without much harm at first, but latter on, without even a scratch. This is what happens in martial arts training since one learns the process of a fight. The purpose is not being able to knock down the opponent, but to not having to do so because it all vanishes at the sight/thought of you. Sure, in the meantime, one will have to learn how to KO the opponent, but also the responsibility on doing so. Life is not a cage fight and if you knock someone out on the streets, you'll get hit by the justice department. Same thing with your mind/soul/depression, if you fight it, it will fight back harder, so don't, contemplate. When in a real fight, one is contemplating the other, he will win the fight. That can have lots of different overcomes and different interpretations, but because he was not with the intention to harm, he will win over the other. I'm not the first to say this, Bruce Lee expressed this on the _Enter the Dragon_ movie in an inicial scene at the boat that takes him to the island. The scene goes like he is challenged to a fight in a provocative way and he deals with that without even laying a punch or a kick (go see the movie, it is worth your time). So, to sum all this rumbling up, take your approach with depression like the "the art of not fighting as THE fight".

Martial arts can be rewarding in many ways. But they aren't the path until you find them to be so, and not all teachers are on this _frequency_. Competitions is not helpful in your situation (imo). If you're in this mood, I'd suggest something like TaiChi, Yin Kung Fu styles or Aikido.

On a side note, have you passed by the meditation thread already?

I think, contrary to what others may say, that the human mind needs a daily challenge, something new every day. I think that it is a human basic need, as much as air, food and sleep. Pay attention to it.

I hope these words find some echo within your needs, even a small one will suffice for me. If not, there is no problem whatsoever, this isn't for everyone, not because difficulty BS, but only because some do not feel things like this, which is OK as long as we respect each others. My purpose here was to share one point of view, not the only one. You'll make your own synthesis out of all this.

Last words, do not contain, express yourself, let it go and contemplate.

Sorry, last minute edit: just found this meme that I think illustrates my point of view:


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## Discoqueen (Jan 29, 2018)

lurè said:


> Forcing your mind into something (expecially new things) is probably the worst thing you can do right now.
> A synergistic medical and psychic therapy should help you regain the will to do the things you once enjoyed.
> Working on your inner self it's hard when the problem lies right there and getting too close to the source can be detrimental when mind is vulnerable.
> I don't know if anhedonia is fueling the depression leading you towards suicidal ideation or it's depression that is causing anhedonia (I've no medical preparation at all).
> In any case if your a getting a treatment you're putting yourself on track for a succesful recovery.



Thank you for the insight, you are very right about what you’re saying, I think. For awhile therapy and meds didn’t do much but at least now there is a shape to everything. 



budda said:


> OP, have you started looking into treatments at all?


Yes, I’ve been in therapy the last two years consistently (my reporte w this therapist goes back 8 years) and I have a psychiatric nurse practitioner handeling meds. I kinda posted because it’s been a very slow motion towards being functional again.



Drew said:


> Hell, it's something that I realized as I was writing it that *I* need to do.
> 
> Music's important. I need to remind myself _how_ important more often, so I don't lose sight of that.



For a long time, I couldn’t even listen to music because it was too over stimulating, so it’d make me anxious or I’d just not like it because I knew I loved the album but I felt no response to it so listening was a reminder I couldn’t feel. Now I can listen to music again and it is amazing  Melodic Death Metal \m/


TedEH said:


> I'm a bit late to this thread I think, but the very first thing I see when starting at post #1 is this. I think this is a terrible point to start at- the sort of romanticism of depression that suggests it's coupled with artistry and expression- suggesting that "healthy" people aren't expressive, or that musicians and artists are driven by psychological issues.
> 
> In the case that you (not you specifically, but the generic "you") have a legitimate issue to work through, one of the more productive things I think one could do is to decouple the reality of the situation from the romanticism surrounding it- being clinically depressed doesn't make one "deep" or artistic or able to be more meaningfully expressive or anything like that.
> 
> I don't mean that to say that a creative outlet can't be therapeutic, but there there isn't any direct connection between playing an instrument and mental health. Some people play guitar more when they're depressed or in poor spirits or whatever else have you, and others do the opposite and play less.


I’m sorry, you’re right. I really didn’t intend for the statement to mean much. The musicians I know are sick with mental health issues or physical ailments, so I was really just thinking about that. 
Actually, Major Depressive Disorder is linked to a diminished ability to be creative. Bipolar depression is actually linked to an increase in creativity (both compared to two control groups of people who were mentally healthy.) But that’s neither here nor there, I just mean to say that I do understand what you’re saying , and believe me, I’m not that basic as to believe healthy people can’t be creative and sick people are the most creative. The anxiety and depression started when I was 9 and I am 27, so I take for granted how much of a normal thing it is for me. Some people actually don’t think depression is that serious of a condition sometimes, so it’s interesting how all of these stigmas float around in different communities of people. So, I feel silly for having perpetuated one.


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## Discoqueen (Jan 29, 2018)

Vyn said:


> I blew up mentally in a big way when I lost my partner nearly 4 years ago (4 years will be in July this year). Quit work, quit studying, quit sport, everything. Could not function. Went through a stack of different counselors and psychologists. I never ended up on medication because I refused to, mainly because I was scared of how it would change me. In hindsight, I probably should have at least considered it or tried it out because I was rather unhinged and suicidal.
> 
> I'm lucky enough to have two amazing friends who would put up with me ringing them at 2AM in the morning, sobbing down the line and they'd just listen to whatever I had to vent or if I was being particularly stupid, they'd talk me out of doing something I regret or worse. They kept me together for long enough for me to be able to develop the strength to keep myself together. Still have the occasional day where everything is complete hell and too much, but I'm able to grit my own teeth and tell myself I can pull through.
> 
> ...



I’m really sorry to hear about your loss and subsequent struggle :/ I’m happy you made it through to the other side. Unfortunately people like to rail on meds a lot, so I avoided meds for too long. And I know what you mean about having friends who sustain you long enough till you can build the strength. 

One of the hardest truths about depression is exactly what you’re saying, I think. Its not about things getting easier, it’s about you getting better at coping. Thank you for sharing, that was really helpful to read and I think maybe I will try to start running scales a few times a day


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## Vyn (Jan 30, 2018)

Discoqueen said:


> I’m really sorry to hear about your loss and subsequent struggle :/ I’m happy you made it through to the other side. Unfortunately people like to rail on meds a lot, so I avoided meds for too long. And I know what you mean about having friends who sustain you long enough till you can build the strength.
> 
> One of the hardest truths about depression is exactly what you’re saying, I think. Its not about things getting easier, it’s about you getting better at coping. Thank you for sharing, that was really helpful to read and I think maybe I will try to start running scales a few times a day



Your welcome  I think that's one of the things as well, the more you talk about it, the more comfortable you end up being with depression because it's out there, you don't feel like you have to hide anything. Acceptance is a huge part of it I think.


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## Discoqueen (Jan 30, 2018)

Vyn said:


> Your welcome  I think that's one of the things as well, the more you talk about it, the more comfortable you end up being with depression because it's out there, you don't feel like you have to hide anything. Acceptance is a huge part of it I think.



It’s a tough pill to swallow, that’s for sure. I thought I was done with depression a couple years ago, but it crept back in so at least this time around I know a lot about it and how to go about handeling it. So haha, I’m done hiding things and I don’t feel embarrassed or ashamed about it any more and stuff. I think you’re right, acceptance is really important in many ways.


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## Discoqueen (Jan 30, 2018)

odibrom said:


> @Discoqueen Great accomplishments come by mainly by our focus on the things that are really important. A great accomplishment isn't the same for everyone, to some, opening the eyes every day could be thought as so, to others is only conquering the world is enough. It is all about scaling things and get them in perspective. History is full of stories of insignificant people doing amazing things at the edge of survival. Their thought was generally like "it's just around the corner", or in other words "I'm too stubborn to quit/die here" (_The __Revenant _movie is an example). The point I'm thinking is, you're still here, not talking about suicide thoughts, but HERE as talking in SS.ORG about yourself. This means you're already fighting back, you WANT to overcome your difficulties. GRAB THIS POSTURE, don't let it go. Your WILL is everything in the process. As soon as you decide you WILL or you WON'T, the game is already laid down to you.
> 
> As far as psiche goes, I'm in the martial arts line of thought, which is... Difficulties are just that, obstacles that we have to learn to overcome, either coming from within or from somewhere else. Since depression is a "self grown one", it means one has to dive deep into the soul and deal with it. The problem is what to deal with when one finds nothing apparently "wrong" when searching. Again, I'm no health professional, so take these words with lots of seasoning, however allow me to lay down some ideas. Warning, long rumbling text ahead.
> 
> ...


 I was talking to a friend awhile back and we were talking about why we hadn’t just given up completely even though at times there was no light at the end of the tunnel (rather it was to far away to see) and it really comes down to saying “fuck you” to the illness sometimes, and that’s all you have left— so that resonates *Im too stubborn to quit/die* That was really motivational  thank you.

I don’t think I can respond to all of that, but I have read it through five times ha, so I am thinking about everything you said, and I really appreciate you taking the time to offer your thoughts. 

I do want to say that when it comes to illness, you only have so much grit at the end of the day, and what you do when your resilience is broken is kind of what determines which way you’ll go with the illness. The idea of standing still, or contemplating I have called batoning down the hatches lol... stopping and not fighting but this stillness is a defense. It’s the only way to survive the grind I think. When you say “as soon as you decide you will or you won’t” that is very encouraging because I’ve definitely kinda endured the worst of it. 
Even though I can’t find something new every day— I do appreciate the sentiment and the advice to be open to expression and be thoughtful. Thank you


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## odibrom (Jan 30, 2018)

You don't have to respond to any of my rumblings, I feel honored for you taking the time to read those... 5 times! Thank you. As @Vyn said and somehow I tried to, acceptance is the first step, but/and contemplation is key, for every thing. Contemplation is not "having to do" things but to "be" with them.

Take that _Enter the Dragon_ movie scene as an example, depression is something provocative to your will, that you don't "have to fight". Fight the need to fight depression and let go. Express yourself and let go. "One must learn to let go of things he/she fears to loose"... (I think this is a quote from Yoda or Obiwan...). Let yourself go...?...

Best wishes and god speed!


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## budda (Jan 30, 2018)

Best of luck to you, OP.


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## TedEH (Jan 30, 2018)

Discoqueen said:


> Some people actually don’t think depression is that serious of a condition sometimes


Realistically, I tend to fall of the side of skepticism. Not in the sense that I don't think clinical depression is a real thing, but more that I think people like to incorrectly self-diagnose (treating their bad days like it's an illness), or to take their diagnosis as a crutch (it's not My Fault, doctor says I have the Depression(tm) and Anxiety(tm), so that means I don't have to deal with anything, and everyone has to accommodate me). I'm well aware that there are people with legitimate disorders out there, and I feel for those people. But legitimate or not, I don't accept that identifying a struggle negates personal responsibility.

My very unprofessional opinion (and one that I'm sure lots of people will strongly disagree with) is that depression and anxiety are not a "you have it or not" situation, so much as everyone experiences it, but not everyone is equally well equipped to handle it- for reasons that are as varied as anything could be. It leaves the line very blurry between "real issues" and people just having frequent bad days (which I'd argue are just as real a problem) - when you consider that you can call something a disorder as soon as it has any significant impact on your otherwise healthy/normal life.

So when someone says something like "just deal with it" or "just put yourself in a better headspace and move on" or whatever else have you, or "just go for a walk" - I get why it sounds offensive, but for some people that IS actually the solution, given that the average person is not far enough over that line as to need medical attention for it. For the person who sits in that blurry area of just having consistently poor mood and outlook, or a person who has just a very "meh" life that occasionally dips into depressing territory- the kind of depression that people who have it worse would get offended by calling it depression in the first place - the kind of thing you could say "yeah, we've all been there" - I can understand why someone wouldn't want to admit it, but the solution CAN be something very simple in some of those cases. And I have zero doubts that some diagnoses are exaggerated or wrong. And again, I'm not saying that some very serious and legitimate cases of depression don't exist - but I think we do a poor job of identifying these cases. And that makes sense- it's incredibly challenging to gauge something as subjective as the experience of depression.

I go through long (two to three months or more) periods of what I think a lot of people would call depression - just long drags of time where my mood stays consistently negative, nothing is fun, the slightest thing pisses me off, nothing gets done, my work suffers for it, my hygiene suffers for it, I don't want to be social, people start asking what's wrong, etc. I refuse to call it depression in that sense though. Not in the "I have a problem so deal with me" kind of way. Because I am still responsible for my actions and choices during those times. And part of breaking out of those slumps very often involves actively deciding "I need to be in a better mood" and taking steps to correct whatever is holding me back. And I fully embrace the therapeutic value of music, and long walks, and carefully balanced amounts of socializing, etc. Those are times where you learn the value of taking care of yourself, because I think for some (or for at least myself), the problem comes down to not taking care of yourself.

Didn't mean to ramble on - just kind of went into train of thought mode. Because I get so annoyed with people who refuse to take personal responsibility. It's not that I don't understand, or don't think people's issues are serious. But (and I hate saying this) I've been there. I was once the anti-social, super overweight, smelly kid who was always "depressed" and convinced it was the world against me. It was not the worlds fault I over-ate. It wasn't the worlds fault that I neglected my hygiene. It was not the worlds fault that I shut myself inside to play video games instead of socializing. Those were all my own fault, and I had to own that, just as everyone else has to own their own issues.

None of this is a criticism of anyone here- I'm more thinking of people I know "in the real world". But I wanted on some level to address the "you seem like you don't think depression is real" bit.


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## odibrom (Jan 30, 2018)

TedEH said:


> (...) "I need to be in a better mood" and taking steps to correct whatever is holding me back.(...)
> (...) It was not the worlds fault (...)



All of this can be read as having a deeper consciousness on the _world-to-self-to-world_ relation, which is in a way what I'm talking about in my 2 previous posts. Martial arts are super on teaching this kind of posture, because not only they teach us how to have a better posture and strength, but specially how to deal with "the other", to understand what fights are worthy to fight for and that, in the end, there is no fight at all.

Depression, as a problem, can not be resolved as a generic problem, because then another problem will rise as the _Hydra_ (that multiheaded dragon to whom two more are born if you cut one of). Depression must be dissolved with something much stronger: the WILL. When one thinks that he/she is depressed, depression is right around the corner if not on one's lap already, ready to be nurtured into deeper and heavier feelings. However, when the WILL takes command, everything around it gets sorted out. It's like when we have a flu, first we are down and feel ill, then when we don't feel strong enough, we go to the doctor or something, however, we only get better when we say "I've had enough of this" (that's when the meds get to kick in)...

If one is stubborn enough to still be here talking, you're just a "mind click" away from getting out of the hole. One's WILL is everything...


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## TedEH (Jan 30, 2018)

odibrom said:


> Depression, as a problem, can not be resolved as a generic problem


Agreed, but not really for the reasons you suggested. I don't think what people call depression is universal in any sense of the word. You can't solve it as a generic problem because it just isn't one.


odibrom said:


> you're just a "mind click" away from getting out of the hole


I think this is what people were hoping to avoid - the statement of "curing depression is just a matter of realizing you don't have to be depressed, then just *click* you're not depressed anymore".

I maybe should have been careful about using the word "deciding"- as if I just decided not to have any problems anymore. There is a big difference between deciding to address a problem, and deciding that it's not a problem in the first place. I also didn't mean to insinuate that the way I address my issues is applicable to anyone else - just that the reality of people's issues are varied. Some people can solve their own issues easily, others can't.


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## odibrom (Jan 30, 2018)

All cool. My latest intervention was more on the finalizing the line of thought of my previous posts, do not know if you read them. I found your intervention/experience to be linked to what I was talking about and tried to bridge them.

If you read my previous posts, you'll find that we are tuned to the same frequency here.

The "just a mind-click away" is, in fact, what happens, it's that simple. The problem resides on the surroundings of the click/switch, which may need some work: to clean up the trash and other residues that limit the recognition of the switch's existence and its use is mandatory. Almost like the de-soldering of a circuit to reuse its components and some cleaning of the pots and switches before reassembling everything back into place inside a previously non functioning electric guitar...?


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## TedEH (Jan 30, 2018)

I just can't agree with the switch thing unless you're willing to back up and abstract it so far that the "switch" is just some metaphor for the inciting action you need to take to begin resolving any arbitrary issue. Depression is not solved via epiphany.

Maybe for some people it's a matter of frame of mind, and if they can 'switch' the way they think, they can get over it.
But maybe for others it's a chemical (im)balance (either occurring naturally, or because of diet or something) that predisposes a person to thinking or feeling a certain way. Certainly can't just 'switch' that.
For others it could be external forces, or being part of a social situation that puts a particularly high pressure on a person. Can't just switch that.
Even if you boil the source of your problems to poor habits - you can't just 'switch' that either. I don't feel like searching for the sources right now, but I'm sure I've come across articles describing how habits take a significant amount of time to form and break - something like 4 months or more? I forget now. But it's not a 'switch' decision. You have to fight your tendencies, urges, patterns, for a considerable amount of time to break out of it.

And I say that as someone who just "switched" and decided to change a lot of things - but it's not really a switch. It's gradual and it's difficult. I say that as someone who had a very unhealthy relationship with food and weight and overall lifestyle and managed to turn it all around - but it was a several-year-long process. To call it a "switch" is to trivialize the process of actually addressing your issues once you've identified them and decided to take action.


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## Dame Ningen (Jan 30, 2018)

I've struggled with OCD and Depression all my life, at some point I stopped playing and listening to music completely even tho those were the most important things in my life because i couldn't get any joy from them anymore. I used to feel like there was something inherently wrong with me and felt disconnected from people and alone in the world. Now I'm slowly recovering and getting back to the things I used to love thanks mostly to medication, even tho those feelings of loneliness still partially remain.


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## odibrom (Jan 31, 2018)

TedEH said:


> I just can't agree with the switch thing unless you're willing to back up and abstract it so far that the "switch" is just some metaphor for the inciting action you need to take to begin resolving any arbitrary issue. Depression is not solved via epiphany.



You got it! See, ain't that hard...

To me, an Epiphany is just a flashed idea. It's a path that is laid on for you to see. Following it is the real hard work and isn't necessarily easy or fast.

As I said before, finding the switch inside is hard work, having the discipline to follow its responsibilities is even harder. Switching on or off is quite easy, really... IMO, obviously.

At the end we look back and say "there is no spoon...".


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## TedEH (Jan 31, 2018)

odibrom said:


> "there is no spoon..."


Except that there is a spoon. I think...? The majority of people's problems are not an illusion you just have to decide to ignore. Not gonna lie, you've got a bit off the deep end with the metaphors, and I don't quite get what you're trying to get across.


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## odibrom (Jan 31, 2018)

... life is as one thinks it is...

... the spoon quote was from the "The Matrix" first movie.. you got that right?


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## Discoqueen (Jan 31, 2018)

To Ted and odibrom

Hey y'all I've not replied yet cuz the conversation got a little dense (as in hard to take it all in! not like stupid) so I've just been kinda thinking on and off about this. 

I think the conversation has sort of moved off from clinical depression and how to maintain or improve at guitar while sick lol, and that's fine but I do want to make it clear that no matter how hard you try or what epiphanie you have, sometimes it will mean nothing in terms of your actual mental illness. If I wasn't on the right meds right now, for instance, I have no idea where I would be, the meds have made a huge difference (neither of you said otherwise, I know, I just want to ground a bit. 

You are both talking about the will to change and improve, and when you are sick or in a place in your life that makes you unhappy, that drive is vital. But depression can take that away from you and I have lost that kind of concentration. When I have had paranoid delusions, I acted in ways that make me feel ashamed when I think back but I was not in touch with reality. The same applies to when the first round of medication I was on caused what diagnosed as a Substance Induced Mood Disorder with manic features, which means I was functionally in a manic episode. Mania is like psychosis in that you do not realize how extreme your behavior is because that is what the illness has done. I did a ton of crap while effectively manic that caused me to lose friend, compromised my safety, and again, things that I am literally embarrassed for because the are so out of my character. Depression takes away your awareness as well, but in much more insidious way. Because depression moves slowly and can look like many other things, awareness to it or an exact gauge on it is hard to have. Depression takes away the will to live as well as the ability to empty your life of pleasure, comfort, and meaning. The loss of the will to live sounds like a spiritual crisis, which I dob't know, this is the *spiritual* aspect of depression represented as a symptom. When something takes your will away, it is very, very hard to know what's going on. And it takes a group of medical professionals and friends to keep you alive until you can have the strength enough to pull yourself up, or the symptoms are relieved enough to where you can move. I am just saying all of this, one for the catharsis of writing it out as the topic really caused me to think, and two, just to make it kinda clear what I was talking about when I said Major Depressive Disorder with Psychotic Features. 

@TedEH I actually just thought you might find this article interesting, I don't know why, I just think after seeing your kinda logic play out a bit gave me the impression you'd find this article interesting. 



TedEH said:


> Except that there is a spoon. I think...? The majority of people's problems are not an illusion you just have to decide to ignore. Not gonna lie, you've got a bit off the deep end with the metaphors, and I don't quite get what you're trying to get across.



At first I wasn't sure we were talking about the same thing, but as you kept posting I think I understood more of where you were coming from. I didn't really think a lot of what you were saying in the post about how you refused to call what you had depression, and made a great deal of change over a long period of time, was too relatable to me. I think maybe you should consider how harsh your standard is because it seems to reflect on how you think about yourself. It isn't at all a bad thing to have such a high standard, but I was just getting a negative vibe about what you thought that other people generally, are simply being weak, burdensome, and not actually having depression. I am not meaning to come off as condescending so I hope you don't mind my saying.
I don't think most people are just exaggerating; I do see why you might see it that way. I have felt the same way in the past. This is really how I think you might see yourself when you are feeling down, maybe, so if I'm kinda in the ballpark of things, I hope you can be a little kinder to yourself. In your later posts I think I saw more of the acknowledgement that people actually have issues haha besides a flaw in their character, and that was good to see because I felt a little more on the same page. I wanted to say congratulations for achieving your goals and improving your life  that is really impressive (not that I think my opinion is weighty enough to pass judgement either way on people). 

In the past year, I have set and accomplished many goals: find a place to live, make sure school got the papers it needed so my GPA wasn't sunk forever with five F's, find a therapist, find a psychiatrist, gain that ten pounds back that would put me back in a healthy weight range (I stopped excising because I can't seem to eat enough food) survive until the meds take effect and can level me out (Process took jeez liketen months before the started working and then one more month until they were in full effect), avoid people when I am in such a bad place I can't be civil ect. So I really do understand what you mean by taking responsibility and doing what I must. I am a 'veteran' depressed person, so I have a lot of coping skills and mechanisms already. I understand all about the grind and the discipline it takes to improve yourself, it's just unfortunately for me that means usually trying to maintain, or get to, a place where I can function and participate in life. I know you didn't say anything to infer i wasn't being responsible, I just wanted to tell you I can relate and appreciate what you mean about taking responsibility, and having an idea of what kind of power of the mind it takes to accomplish what you did is why I am happy for you and impressed


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## Discoqueen (Jan 31, 2018)

odibrom said:


> You got it! See, ain't that hard...
> 
> To me, an Epiphany is just a flashed idea. It's a path that is laid on for you to see. Following it is the real hard work and isn't necessarily easy or fast.
> 
> ...



Hehe, reality isn't real but you need to treat it as such. Abstraction can be helpful when I am manifesting my depression and anxiety in my mind so it feels less like nothing and more like it's something I can tangibly engage. It's a coping mechanism as a way of just expressing myself and affirming myself. I think I said already, I see it as me walking through a burning forest or sinking into the ocean or thrown around by the wind. I also like to invision my soul, and the deepest part of it which I used to say could never be broken, and like a seed or the matter of the universe compressed waiting to explode with growth through the cracks of the concrete to swallow all the pain, turning the emptiness into fertile ground with a core of fire. 

Unfortunately, I've felt this part of me break, when my actual perception of what I am doing is lost. It scares the shit out of me, that implication that 1 you are safe nowhere and 2 your whole grasp on reality can slip away from you and you as a person stop existing while this perversion of you lives and acts, and when I come back from that kind of extreme it feels like... waking up from a dream, but a weird dream where you where not you, and you were just experiencing it, not acting in it. It is a profound loss like nothing else I know and something I can't really describe because it is like a twistedness. Like losing yourself in the worst fever, you're delirious in your illness. There is nothing left there to will to start moving towards health, and so this is when I stop moving entirely. Waiting for your chance to exist again. This is the *spiritual* aspect of depression. As an atheist, I don't believe in an eternal soul, but I do believe we all have an essence as a person underneath everything. And no doctor or therapist or person who hasn't lived it will not know to tell you that like a black ocean the depression, will start lapping at your essence, (who you are as a person, the piece of yourself that perceives) and then rise above you until your gone. They don't tell you this because philosophically, it is difficult. The doctor's don't know how this happens, they call human experiences like hopelessness and inner turmoil mere symptoms of a disorder. This structure is good and has done a lot of good but there is a lot to reckon with you are trying to have hope when their is none. This is poetic to me, that hope lives even when there is nothing but the tiniest ember. Despite feeling hopeless, there is a trust in yourself that you'll come back. So this hopelessness is paradoxical anyways. This is something I have observed by staying still, realizing the patterns over the years and knowing you have to wait until your time to strike your hand into the mud and start to drag yourself to safety. So this is how I found your posts relatable.

I can't though agree that depression is a thing of perception. If you live with the philosophy that absolutely no reality is real, then you can fit depression into this maybe, but there is just no way perspective is the ultimate factor in coming back. 

Leonard Cohen is someone I'll listen to a little bit when I am deep in it. His song 'The Partisan' feels real then. and "Love is not a victory march. It's not somebody that's seen the light, it's a cold and a broken halleluah." I would never claim depression has made me a deeper person, but living with a severe illness... you can't deny that life experience boradens you when you come back to health. You know more about yourself because all of it has been questioned. 

But I am saying all this because I want to agree, but take exception to the conclusion you draw maybe. I know that epiphany is not the word I'd use, and realizing how bad my sickness was before it happened was like standing on top of a cliff knowing I was gonna fall. It was too late, the illness had already gotten to a level that was out of control and in that moment I had decided I was going to survive. The subsequent episode was survived even with no desire for that to happen; I just trusted my decision and clung to anything I could. 

All of this may sound like a romanticizatation of depression, but I think depression feels so dramatic in my head, as the hypersensitivity blows everything way out of proportion and the mood swings left me breathless. I genuinely feel the metaphors that are a bit extravagant feel apt. For instance, I literally felt the sensation in my stomach, and my feet tingled, as if I was standing at the edge of a cliff about to fall when I realized how fucked I was, right before the depression got too severe to be managed. 

I will say, though, that I was lucky to have the supports I did. If someone loses to depression, I don't think they made the choice to kill themselves (not 100% of the time anyways, when the contemplation of suicide is sober it feels like you're making choices). I might not have been able to stick to my decision to survive if I didn't have health insurance, a family that would let me stay with them, and friends who'd spend the nights with me.


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## Discoqueen (Jan 31, 2018)

Dame Ningen said:


> I've struggled with OCD and Depression all my life, at some point I stopped playing and listening to music completely even tho those were the most important things in my life because i couldn't get any joy from them anymore. I used to feel like there was something inherently wrong with me and felt disconnected from people and alone in the world. Now I'm slowly recovering and getting back to the things I used to love thanks mostly to medication, even tho those feelings of loneliness still partially remain.



I'm glad you're moving towards a place of health. I can agree with you about how important meds are. I have no clue where I'd be without them  

For awhile I couldn't listen to music, too. That was so disheartening because I too think music is one of the most important things to me in the world. And the loneliness sounds very unpleasant. I don't like assuming anything, but I can say I feel terribly lonely and cold sometimes. Like everyone says "Hey, just say something if you need anything," and even if they are available at 3 a.m., I don't feel like I could get anything from talking to them. In those times I really only feel like human touch would make me feel better or something, just some sort of physical confirmation that people are there, with me. But then again, I've felt that isolation when I've been laying in bed with a significant other, and it was almost worse because I realized that loneliness was just going to be there sometimes. I feel it a lot less now, again, that's probably thanks to the meds, but when it happens I really feel lost. 

Goodluck in your process  and thanks for sharing.


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## odibrom (Jan 31, 2018)

Sorry, some more terrible rambling here...

Everyone of us has a different feel on how to handle difficulties, may they be simple or really damaging. I haven't been honest to the point of sharing my fears and sadness or what I call my un-clinical depression (I won't, sorry). My point is, we all have our struggles and as well as we shouldn't judge others, we should also not judge ourselves for being (or not) what we are supposed to be... or in other words we should not judge ourselves for not being what we were taught to think we should become. The very beginning of this illness is betrayal and expectation, is the promise of a future and what it means to the present. We are taught to think on the future, to live because of the future, but not to appreciate and contemplate the *present*. I like a quote from Kung Fu Panda (the first movie*), not word by word, but something in this line:
_The past is behind
The future is a mystery
The now is a gift,
and that' why it is called..._ (see the word in bold back there?)​
This is the betrayal, the betrayal of the soul with expectations about a future that never comes. The future is like the Horizon Line, the more one chases it, the further it is. Today's society is a trap for the sensible soul with lots of "you must do this" in order "to get that in a few [insert time limit]". There is never an immediate exchange of what one does with what one gets. Marketing is all over this, it's disgusting. Politics? worst... family? damn, some are... really difficult to live with. My betrayal has been my family in many ways, but they also supported me in many others and still do. Damn these paradoxes...

I'm sorry again, I lied, there are immediate exchanges in today's society, most of them are related to excess and abuse of our earth vehicle (our body) and as an immediate result, our conductor, the mind/soul thing (because we are one only thing: body/mind/soul, not 3 separate entities as we are taught through out life by our family, teachers priests). Good things never come fast and we have to work for them, so all vices and dependencies arise from our insecurities and the possibility of fast re-connection, because society lives and thrives in the fast lane. There is religion as one possible solution for the soul. Religion is to re-connect, it involves a number of practices in order to clean one's mind/soul thing, but it also takes you some freedom. It allows one to think that he/she has a place in society, but only as long as one coops with the protocols. So many souls are lost in these procedures... I come from a catholic family... and it has been poisonous to me (I never felt un-connected...). Religions can, however, teach us many things about human behavior and, therefore, about us and them. There are no different religions, they all speak the same (more or less), they all have their ways to evangelize people and to marginalize them. They use FEAR. Everyone uses FEAR when one wants to control your movements and thoughts. Free thinking people are fearless, challenging, dangerous, look at Martin Luther King, Mahatma Gandhi and so many others. Free thinking people are dangerous for the hegemony because they tear it apart if they get the chance to (those two did). You are dangerous, not to you but to the established line of thought. You have the power to rip them apart and because of it they want to control you (my family sure did it to me). Do not let your thoughts be controlled. Do not believe me, do not follow these words as they do not speak the truth. There is no thing as "the Truth", or, if there is, it is like the future or the horizon line, we are not to get there, but only to chase it, that's out curse, destiny, fate, love, god, our voyage, our purpose. These words are but a perspective, a point of view with the purpose to... unlock whatever it is that is locked...

Sharing perspectives is like taking one to the other side of the horizon line, it will still ilude you, but if you're on the other side, you now know where the horizon is (where you once were). In order to have a 3D image of the world we (and every single animal) need at least 2 different points of view, 2 different perspectives that can be caught with any of the senses and/or a mix of them. So are thoughts, feelings, their perception and their understanding. I feel sorry for those who can only have one teacher, one god, one master, one eye.

So, short cutting this long rambling talk, life is as one thinks it is, or life becomes what one thinks it shall become. This means that "life" should be thought/taught to be enjoyed, to contemplate/feel the journey and not the destiny, though having a destiny is also important. If one doesn't enjoy the journey, one will feel EMPTY at the destiny, and will not enjoy it, not for long at least (competition has this problem, the journey is neglected most of the times). This why I previously said to contemplate the "bird dipping in the pond" or the "cat liking his parts in the alley". This is enjoying the journey, becoming one with the present, which also means becoming The Present... to others... the darker the surroundings, the brighter the light. The lotus flower is thought to be one of the prettiest flowers, yet it flourishes in the mud. Be the lotus, be the light. Fight the power!... (oops, where did that came from?).

Things I'll have to deepen is why you are dangerous to the "hegemony" or to the "establishment".

Hope this hasn't been too confusing...

* - I like movies...


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## TedEH (Feb 1, 2018)

Lots of new text in this thread to go through, and I haven't read all of it yet, but I figured I'd address the part directed at me before continuing. 



Discoqueen said:


> I didn't really think a lot of what you were saying in the post about how you refused to call what you had depression, and made a great deal of change over a long period of time, was too relatable to me. I think maybe you should consider how harsh your standard is because it seems to reflect on how you think about yourself.



I don't think my standard is harsh at all. I'm coming from a place of not treating EVERYTHING as if it's equivalent to mental illness. People have character flaws, not every character flaw is a mental illness. My point is not to be "harsh" on anyone, but to make the distinction that what I dealt with was effectively not that bad - not compared to someone with legit mental illness to deal with. I have some friends with proper OCD, schizoaffective dissorder, bipolar, etc. I've known some people who have attempted (and in some cases succeeded) suicide. Me being sad sometimes doesn't compare to that. I actually think fairly highly of myself most of the time- I take personal responsibility, I have a lot of willpower, I think I have a pretty firm grasp on reality, I don't think of myself as stupid, I know my strengths and weaknesses, I have good employable skills, musical talents, etc. Life sucks sometimes, and I go through phases of less-than-ideal mental health or mood, but that doesn't mean I have a diagnosable illness. Edit: Relating to the rest of what I've typed after this, I very much pride myself on my independence. I deal with my own sh*t, so to speak. My problems never become someone else's pro



Discoqueen said:


> I was just getting a negative vibe about what you thought that other people generally, are simply being weak, burdensome, and not actually having depression. I am not meaning to come off as condescending so I hope you don't mind my saying.


I know it sounds harsh, but sometimes, yes. "Negative vibes" or not, I don't base my opinions on what feels good, I aim to get as close to the truth/reality as possible. Consider that 99% of people you ask will tell you that they deal with anxiety and depression. How many of them REALLY have something we'd clinically describe as a disorder? Nobody wants to admit that bouts of poor mental health, or poor mood, or heightened anxiety seem to be a common part of the experience of being a person.

To be clear, none of my criticism is directed at "most people". I have zero doubts that lots of people deal with some very serious issues. I wouldn't doubt that there seems to be a trend of generally poor mental health. But I absolutely do run into cases where a person becomes a burden on those around them because of a refusal to take personal responsibility, and it drives me up the walls. And in lots of those cases, the diagnosis or label of having a mental illness is leaned on as a means to excuse the behavior. It's not about whether or not the problem is real, it's about whether or not you use it as a crutch or an excuse. It doesn't mean they don't have what they say they have, but rather they use it as an excuse to be a sh*tty person.

When I talk about this stuff I'm not directing it at anyone here- rather, I have a few of people in mind that I have to deal with pretty regularly-
I have a friend of a friend in particular who just has ZERO sense of personal responsibility. Whenever they do something sh*tty, everything is blamed on their anxiety (see, they aren't bad people, it's not their fault!), and they take zero steps to improve themselves, while pretty commonly being very critical of the lifestyles of everyone around them. The problem is not about having anxiety, or whether or not it's real - I'm sure it's real - but it's this person's responsibility to handle it instead of making it my issue. I won't go into details, but they very commonly make their issues become everyone else's issues. It may not be comfortable to admit it, but it's absolutely a burden.

Another example is all of the people who came to talk to me after I lost a bunch of weight to tell me that they wanted to do the same thing. Granted, this isn't mental illness related, but it's still a personal responsibility vs. willpower kind of thing. I've heard lots of people say they would look at me as an example and start losing some weight too, but then get upset when it doesn't work out. I ask them what they're doing, and they're doing..... nothing. Maybe a handful of symbolic things, but nothing meaningful. "I eat a salad sometimes" is not a lifestyle change. Some have even gone as far as getting mad at me, saying that I'm "actually the unhealthy one", lots of passive-aggressive comments about needing to "put some meat on my bones". But nobody seems to have the willpower to make any real change in their lives.

Sorry, kinda rambling again. And again - it's not so much directed at anyone here - but the subject puts me into train-of-thought mode just because of how often I have to deal with the two above cases.

Hopefully some of that made sense.


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## Ebony (Feb 1, 2018)

Discoqueen said:


> You are both talking about the will to change and improve, and when you are sick or in a place in your life that makes you unhappy, that drive is vital. But depression can take that away from you and I have lost that kind of concentration.



I don't think depression is curable, at least not the kind many of us have, but I think a big part of getting it down to bearable levels is realizing _and accepting_ how one change as a person because of it. Many of us want to feel "normal" (normal as in our "good old self" not societal bullshit), and many of us don't feel that way because we quite literally change during our crisis. People want to feel comfort, feeling like a ghost inside you're own body is the opposite of comfort.

Regarding playing the guitar, don't beat yourself up over feeling this way, it's not the end of the world and the guilt/shame/anger/whatever you feel is only going to strengthen your depression, not your resolve. Only play when you feel like it.

Other suggestions include: eat right, get sun on your skin, go for long walks and sleep as much as possible. Also, have you had any bloodwork done recently? Map out your deficiencies and eat/supplement accordingly.


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## Discoqueen (Feb 2, 2018)

Ebony said:


> I don't think depression is curable, at least not the kind many of us have, but I think a big part of getting it down to bearable levels is realizing _and accepting_ how one change as a person because of it. Many of us want to feel "normal" (normal as in our "good old self" not societal bullshit), and many of us don't feel that way because we quite literally change during our crisis. People want to feel comfort, feeling like a ghost inside you're own body is the opposite of comfort.
> 
> Regarding playing the guitar, don't beat yourself up over feeling this way, it's not the end of the world and the guilt/shame/anger/whatever you feel is only going to strengthen your depression, not your resolve. Only play when you feel like it.
> 
> Other suggestions include: eat right, get sun on your skin, go for long walks and sleep as much as possible. Also, have you had any bloodwork done recently? Map out your deficiencies and eat/supplement accordingly.



Yeah, early 2017 was rough cuz I had to reconcile the changes and accept kind of a new life, in a way. And I walk and do my best to eat, and I am trying to get a new GP and they'll order blood work for the first appointment I bet, and if not, I'll request it. And the "normal" thing lol: I'd tell me therapist and they'd be like, "Normal, what's normal, you shouldn't care so much about normal, no one is normal." Just a blind spot maybe cuz I bet everyone who's depressed that says they want to be normal are just talking about the self they knew that was a little more energetic and ambitious and all that.


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## Ernesto (Feb 8, 2018)

Discoqueen said:


> hey y’all
> 
> We’re all musicians, so I imagine a lot of us have one diagnosis or another. I have Major Depresion with Psychotic Features and this illness has been kicking my butt. I feel tired a lot (like heavy with fatigue) and experience anhedonia, like, every day usually (loss of pleasure/enjoyment). So just my arms feel heavy so when I sit down to play after a couple minutes I’m already just not wanting to play anymore, or I won’t really feel any gratification at all, which really sucks. I know generally with any art or creative endeavor, but I’m living the dibilitating levels right now so I am pretty sure it’s not just a funk, and it’s been most of the last couple years, too (which lol hardly feel like a minute when I think back.)
> 
> ...



Most mental illness is our bodies trying to force us to change our environment, lifestyle, or diet. Usually eating healthier, paying attention to circadian rhythms, and spending more time in Nature is more effective than western medications. I've been diagnosed with all kinds of horrible crap over the years but since having a stroke due to a neck injury that makes it impossible to have a normal job, going minimalist, spending more time outside, and greatly reducing my dependance on capitalism, all symptoms, that I supposedely needed to be medicated for life for, pretty much went away.

The balance of dopamine and serotonin is extremely important to mental/emotional stability, and civilization in general makes that balance really difficult to achieve. All of the stimulants and depressants that are common recreationally, the unnatural foods we survive on, the drugs that the "doctors" push, porn, the constant mind numbing stress of existing in a financial system that's fixed against the little guy, spenging the majority of our time indoors, and sitting, and even the little dopamine bursts from social media make it extremely difficult for our bodies to maintain a balance. After a while, reliance upon, or addiction to, these external stimuli make it impossible for our natural regulatory system to work. This is where depression and anxiety surface.

I've been stuck back in civ for the last year, trying to finish some projects that will allow me to leave the rat race and cities for good and I started having mental stress again. I've found two things that have really helped when I can't get out to Nature and reset. One is Pilates, and the other is the Wim Hof method.

I hope some of this helps!


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## Ernesto (Feb 8, 2018)

Also, unless you have an MRI showing serious brain abnormalities, the longer you're messing with western psyche meds, the longer you'll be sick and dependent. In all but the most serious cases, usually involving injuries or genetics, psyche drugs are like putting poisonous bandaids over bullet wounds. The best they can do, and what they're intended for, is providing enough of a break from the pain and drudgery that you gain enough insight to figure out how to change your lifestyle/environment/diet in ways that allow your natural neurotransmitter regulatory system to function normally. I've never seen a long term positive result from anyone taking psyche drugs long term. Usually, the side effects greatly outweigh the actual benefits too. I won't even hang out with people that are on head meds anymore because I'm sick of talking suicidal people out of closets and getting them to put down the steak knives. Twice was enough. If your doctor hasn't asked you about your diet, sleep habits, or exposure to Nature, you don't have a doctor, you have a very expensive drug dealer. 

If the meds are helping, great, use the relief time to attempt healing yourself naturally, before you build a tolerance and have to up the dose, switch meds, or start taking multiple meds. As long as you're on them, there's no way you'll ever heal.

Sorry if I'm a little passionate about this. I've just watched too many loved ones trust western doctors with their mental health and I've seen too many of them die young. Civilization IS the disease and our mental health issues, in most cases, are just a symptom trying to point that out.


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## Ernesto (Feb 8, 2018)

I should also add that I know that this is a touchy topic and due to the truth being something other than the widely accepted views on western medicine and mental health treatments, there will likely be people that are offended by my posts. Offending people is very rarely my intention and not what I'm attempting here.

I just want to make it very clear that my posts on the topic are the conclusions that I've reached after years of desperate and therefore open minded and driven independent research, experimentation, and direct experience, both with dealing with my own issues and attempting to help other friends and family members with theirs, and I have no intention other than to help others when I share them. The people that have accepted my help and implemented my recommendations are all depression and drug free now so I'm confident in posting these ideas publicly. I really hope they help anyone reading this!...Even doctors!


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## Discoqueen (Feb 9, 2018)

Ernesto said:


> I should also add that I know that this is a touchy topic and due to the truth being something other than the widely accepted views on western medicine and mental health treatments, there will likely be people that are offended by my posts. Offending people is very rarely my intention and not what I'm attempting here.
> 
> I just want to make it very clear that my posts on the topic are the conclusions that I've reached after years of desperate and therefore open minded and driven independent research, experimentation, and direct experience, both with dealing with my own issues and attempting to help other friends and family members with theirs, and I have no intention other than to help others when I share them. The people that have accepted my help and implemented my recommendations are all depression and drug free now so I'm confident in posting these ideas publicly. I really hope they help anyone reading this!...Even doctors!



The reason I am so jarred is because after every depressive episode I have had I have done a few things. Firstly, the temperature usually has been sitting around 15°F where I live and I still go for a 30 minute walk every day. In he summer, Spring and Fall I spend hours outside around trees, flowers, feeling the grass and Mother Earth under me. Sitting in the sun and absorbing dusk every night and I just love the moonlight and looking at the stars.
I have stopped drinking, smoking week and smoking cigarettes (the only drugs I have done) all because they made me depression worse. 
My diet right now is shit but that’s because I’ve just been feeling hardly any appatite, but before the big sinking it was a salad most every day, fruit, no beef or pork, just chicken and fish and eggs. I cut out unnecessary sugar, and caffeine completely, for over a year at one point. Like I have had vitamin deficiencies in the past and they have felt different than the depression. 
Sleep has never been good for me and I have tried so much to regulate it. I do not take sleep meds, that’s sonewhere I do not compromise because the ambien would make me hullicinate shadow people and shut kijectgat. To maintain a sleep schedual takes a level of discipline that is really just ratting now so much energy itself. So I mean, what keeps me awake is intrusive thoughts that are just incessant, and a feeling that if I sleep something bad will happen because I won’t be able to stop it. Sometimes I need to wait for there to be light before I can feel safe to sleep. So my sleep is just a mess and I can keep a pattern for a few months but eventually the insomnia starts grinding away at the schedual and I stop being able to function. So I generally sleep when I can. 



Even when I am at the peaks of taking care of myself there is a hole, like a hungry insecurity, I’ve been trying to grape leaves with my whole life. Just a shadow that I used to think was demonic possession, and now believe is an imprint of an attacker when I was a child, which is a whole conversation in isltself. I still feel sad and I still Have trouble sleeping at night when I am not super depressed and also working hard to take care of myself. Like I don’t know why people keep telling me diet and nature will help my psychotic paranoia where I think random people are going to attack me so I get freaked out. I hear people laughing and I assume they are laughing at me. I cannot be in a relationship without assuming I am being cheated on. Like... delusions are not the worst psychotic symptom to have and I am really good at identifying that they are delusions so I don’t act on them anymore, but I still feel like they are real inside my heart and that so distressing. The first time my mind was quiet in years was when the meds started kicking in. That was literally like as if I had broken the surface of the water and I was breathing for the first time in a long time, or kinda even like putting on glasses and realizing the world is actually not a fuzzy blob. I know that typically antidepressants are meant only to be used temporarily, but... I took myself off meds twice now, with the support of my therapist, who at this now point now, after 8 years suggested I work with medication again and if it hadn’t been the therapist who I have such a close report with because we just know each other so well after talking for god only knows how many hours, I wouldn’t have gone back on meds at all. 

I understand that my sleep schedual and diet are things I need to work on. And I have literally almost completely changed as a person. I don’t act on the impulses, I don’t act on the delusions, I have cultivated a genuine empathy that just wasn’t there ten years ago, I have made peace with my mortality and have answered so many questions in regards to purpose and connectivity tic the world... and still there is something wrong and I feel it. 

As far as a doctor goes, no, I read through the DSM myself and with the therapist mentioned above and ruled out diagnosis after diagnosis until I was absolutely sure that to the letter I fit the criteria of Major Depressive Disorder w psychotic feature. I was almost diagnosed with Bipolar a few times but pointed to where I did not fit the criteria for bipolar. I am extremely assertive in my treatments because I have learned by now that you are your own advocate. 

I appreciate where you are coming from. I’ve seen doctors kill people on accident in the hospital, I have friends taking way too much of whatever and they are zombies, and I’ve never had to talk peopl down like you have so I wouldn’t presume to know what that’s like, but I just idk I am getting very frustrated because I have tried everything you talked about except the circadian rhythm thingy but eh... why do people assume I haven’t tried eating better, excersizing more, spending time outside, and correcting my sleep schedual? It feels bad to hear people talk about how those things can fix everythin, but the four times I’ve tried I try over the last decade Ive wound up in a major depressive episode anyway and even at my healthiest, I am fairly paranoid of other people and I cry almost every night because I feel an emptiness and ... sensation of having lost something. And I know what this means but I don’t know how to fix it and I have tried meditation, deep breathing, techniques of talking to splintered parts of the personality... so I am at wits ends and just want advice from people on how to try and keep up with guitar while living with a dibilitating illness. 

/rant 

I do trust you know what you are talking about. You come off to me as someone who speaks with authority, from experience. So i appreaciate you having taken the time to put all of that info and insight up there, but I haven been dealing with this shit for nearly 20 years and I’ve heard it all. It is good to hear it, though, I’m not meaning to complain. It reminds me of how much worse it will be if I neglect all of the things you mentioned. And thank you for mentioning circadian rhythms, I will start researching those. And sorry to rant. That’s been building up, I think


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## TedEH (Feb 9, 2018)

Ernesto said:


> I've never seen





Ernesto said:


> I've just watched





Ernesto said:


> my posts on the topic are the conclusions that I've reached after years of desperate and therefore open minded and driven independent research, experimentation, and direct experience


I'm sure your intentions are well meant, but yours is a singular experience among literally billions of people. You can't just say "these things work for me, and therefor this must be how it works for everyone" while dismissing every other experience brought to you. That's not what "open minded" means. Don't get me wrong, I'm guilty of it as well - but it's just not realistic to expect that every person's experience will always mirror your own.

I know a lot of people who very well could solve a lot of their problems by taking better care of themselves, better diet, better choices, etc. But I also know a fair number of people who whom that's not even close to a realistic 'cure' for what they deal with. Cutting some processed foods out of your diet is not going to cure someone of severe hallucinations. Going for a walk is not going to negate people's obsessive rituals. Sleeping a bit more won't address the root cause of anyone's issues unless the root cause is that they don't sleep enough.


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## Ernesto (Feb 9, 2018)

Discoqueen said:


> The reason I am so jarred is because after every depressive episode I have had I have done a few things. Firstly, the temperature usually has been sitting around 15°F where I live and I still go for a 30 minute walk every day. In he summer, Spring and Fall I spend hours outside around trees, flowers, feeling the grass and Mother Earth under me. Sitting in the sun and absorbing dusk every night and I just love the moonlight and looking at the stars.
> I have stopped drinking, smoking week and smoking cigarettes (the only drugs I have done) all because they made me depression worse.
> My diet right now is shit but that’s because I’ve just been feeling hardly any appatite, but before the big sinking it was a salad most every day, fruit, no beef or pork, just chicken and fish and eggs. I cut out unnecessary sugar, and caffeine completely, for over a year at one point. Like I have had vitamin deficiencies in the past and they have felt different than the depression.
> Sleep has never been good for me and I have tried so much to regulate it. I do not take sleep meds, that’s sonewhere I do not compromise because the ambien would make me hullicinate shadow people and shut kijectgat. To maintain a sleep schedual takes a level of discipline that is really just ratting now so much energy itself. So I mean, what keeps me awake is intrusive thoughts that are just incessant, and a feeling that if I sleep something bad will happen because I won’t be able to stop it. Sometimes I need to wait for there to be light before I can feel safe to sleep. So my sleep is just a mess and I can keep a pattern for a few months but eventually the insomnia starts grinding away at the schedual and I stop being able to function. So I generally sleep when I can.
> ...




The fact that you're able to recognize the delusions means that you're definitely healing so the path you're taking is probably the right one for you. I just threw everything I know out there and didn't mean to suggest that you weren't going outside or eating right.

As far as the empty hole feeling goes, I know the feeling. I really think that it's the subconscious stress of knowing deep down that our culture will end up driving our species to extinction if we don't turn things around. I also think that people's desperation leaks out into the atmosphere and certain people that are really sensitive actually feel it. I can't even go to big cities because it feels like there's a lead weight hanging from my heart the entire time. I've just accepted it as part of existence and learned to laugh at my delusions and inexplicable feelings.

Another thing that I forgot to mention is probiotics. There are lots of studies coming out that correlate gut health with mental health.

Anyway, I really think you're on a good path. Sometimes these things never totally go away. Sometimes healing can take years. I probably played guitar four times per year or less when I was struggling with trying to find a place in an economic system that had no place for me. I played Mastodon songs so I could keep my fingers fast, but didn't even think about writing or recording anything. The only thing I found that really motivated me to play was friends wanting to play with me, especially drummers. I'm pretty sure that if a good drummer set a guitar on my grave and started busting out beats, I'd dig right out and jam.

I wish I knew a way to just turn it off instantly but cognitive behavioral therapy and rebalancing neurotransmitters and rebuilding neural networks just takes time.


----------



## Ernesto (Feb 9, 2018)

TedEH said:


> You can't just say "these things work for me, and therefor this must be how it works for everyone" while dismissing every other experience brought to you.



You actually cut the quote at a pretty relevant part. 


Ernesto said:


> both with dealing with my own issues and attempting to help other friends and family members with theirs



I'm not just referencing myself but other people that I've helped, and I learned how to help them by doing enough research that psychiatrists have asked me where I got my doctorate. 




TedEH said:


> Cutting some processed foods out of your diet is not going to cure someone of severe hallucinations. Going for a walk is not going to negate people's obsessive rituals. Sleeping a bit more won't address the root cause of anyone's issues unless the root cause is that they don't sleep enough.



It's a holistic thing, and when the body is given the correct nutrients, sleep, and environment, it's much more likely to heal itself. Most modern diseases are symptoms of civilization. Our species evolved as hunter gatherers and we are just not adapted to living sedentary lives in cities, exposed to chemicals, emi, and millions of other desperate, confused people. I've personally seen the advice I've given cure severe hallucinations, ocd, sleep disorders, ulcerative colitis, panic attacks, paranoia, anxiety, depression, suicidal tendencies, baldness, cancer, and even type 2 diabetes.

Here's a good article that explains how to boost neurogenesis with aerobic exercise, which, when done in Nature, is basically simulating an important part of our past hunter/gatherer lives. 
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...plasticity-and-neurogenesis-rewire-your-brain

Robert Sapolsky's research is super interesting and definitely worth looking into on a deeper level if you have interest in these things.

Here's one article that I found interesting:
https://sites.google.com/site/cogit...antidepressants-and-the-shrinking-hippocampus

I just want to make it very clear that I'm not dismissing anyone's experience. If the pills are helping, great. I just wanted to make it very clear that the pills are a crutch that 99% of patients shouldn't need for more than a few months at a time, worst case scenario. I'm not saying that everyone will heal completely by adopting some daily practices that simulate natural life. I know there are some very sick people out there that need drugs to survive but even they would benefit greatly from following the advice that I posted above.


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## Ernesto (Feb 9, 2018)

oops. posted twice on accident. Is there not a delete post option here?


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## Drew (Feb 9, 2018)

Discoqueen said:


> That’s really thoughtful advice , thank you


By the way, this thread has made me make a much more conscious effort to do this _myself_ lately, and honestly I think it's been good my my happiness and peace of mind during a very stressful couple months. It just keeps me a little more grounded. So, thanks for starting this thread, and prompting me to think about this a bit.


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## TedEH (Feb 12, 2018)

Ernesto said:


> You actually cut the quote at a pretty relevant part.


None of what you added after that negates what I said. If anything, it reinforces it. The experiences of yourself and your family don't represent everyone.



Ernesto said:


> when the body is given the correct nutrients, sleep, and environment, it's much more likely to heal itself.


Sure, but again, that's not helpful if those are not the root cause of your issues. Nobody is going to argue that you'll be in a better state overall if you take care of yourself, but that continues to be why I'm pretty hesitant to call every minor issue a "mental illness". If it's solved by a couple hours of extra sleep, it wasn't really a serious mental illness in the first place, was it? For someone with more serious issues, it's not good advice to just say "sleep more and eat better, you'll be fiiiiiiiine".



Ernesto said:


> psychiatrists have asked me where I got my doctorate


If you say so. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Drew (Feb 12, 2018)

TedEH said:


> Sure, but again, that's not helpful if those are not the root cause of your issues. Nobody is going to argue that you'll be in a better state overall if you take care of yourself, but that continues to be why I'm pretty hesitant to call every minor issue a "mental illness". If it's solved by a couple hours of extra sleep, it wasn't really a serious mental illness in the first place, was it? For someone with more serious issues, it's not good advice to just say "sleep more and eat better, you'll be fiiiiiiiine".


I mean, it's a fairly popular meme, but no one tells cancer patients they just need to not have cancer, or someone bleeding severely from blunt trauma to go for a run, have a kale smoothie, and take a nap. Telling someone with clinical depression to do the same is sort of ridiculous. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm a cyclist, I do most of my own cooking from scratch, and I eat a pretty good diet, and I definitely feel _better_ when I'm sleeping and working out than when I'm not (say, right now, when I'm recovering from shoulder surgery, where again not one specialist told me to eat better and take more naps). But, I'm also not suffering from mental illness. Let's not trivialize what are some very real, material, crushing disorders for many people by pretending it's somehow just in their heads.


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## TedEH (Feb 12, 2018)

^ I think a lot of it comes down to lacking a proper way to distinguish between the kind of everyday lows that can be improved with lifestyle changes, and the kind of disorder that one doesn't really have control over. I understand why people might experience one side and expect everyone's experience to be the same. I don't think we have either a way to identify, or communicate, those differences very clearly.


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## odibrom (Feb 12, 2018)

Some more rambling...

There is nothing in this world that begins big, every thing grows from a small size to a larger one if given the opportunity and so do illnesses, either bio or psyche. The big question is the timing, or, the time taken between the installment of the illness and its recognition by the host. There is no correct time besides the one that voids the illness installment. Some are pretty fast, others are almost unnoticeable. Looking back to the first symptoms and trying to trace them even further back may deliver answers to many of the questions all illnesses pose on us: are we fighting the good fight?

We are psychosomatic beings, which means that the bio has a direct interference with the mind and vice versa. In my opinion, it is not correct to segregate these two manifestations of our selves. If one is ill, so is the other. Some times the real illness is in the other and not in the one that experiences symptoms. When in illness we should care for both manifestation of the self, at the same time. _*Mens sana in corpore sano*_...


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## Ernesto (Feb 13, 2018)

TedEH said:


> None of what you added after that negates what I said. If anything, it reinforces it. The experiences of yourself and your family don't represent everyone



It's pretty clear that your reading comprehension skills are falling victim to your bias here. We all do it sometimes but it's far from constructive.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Feb 13, 2018)

Drew said:


> I mean, it's a fairly popular meme, but no one tells cancer patients they just need to not have cancer, or someone bleeding severely from blunt trauma to go for a run, have a kale smoothie, and take a nap. Telling someone with clinical depression to do the same is sort of ridiculous.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm a cyclist, I do most of my own cooking from scratch, and I eat a pretty good diet, and I definitely feel _better_ when I'm sleeping and working out than when I'm not (say, right now, when I'm recovering from shoulder surgery, where again not one specialist told me to eat better and take more naps). But, I'm also not suffering from mental illness. Let's not trivialize what are some very real, material, crushing disorders for many people by pretending it's somehow just in their heads.


Hope your surgery was a success and it heals properly as well as quickly.


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## Ernesto (Feb 13, 2018)

Drew said:


> Let's not trivialize what are some very real, material, crushing disorders for many people by pretending it's somehow just in their heads.



The fact that cognitive behavioral therapy is so successful and the phenomenon we call the placebo effect makes it pretty clear that most of our suffering, to a large degree, at least starts out in our heads.

Knowing that our thoughts and mindset can have such a strong effect on our physical reality can definitely empower people to literally use their minds to heal the "unhealable". Thinking, "I'm flawed, it's not my fault, and I'll never heal." is extremely detrimental to our health.


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## Drew (Feb 13, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Hope your surgery was a success and it heals properly as well as quickly.


Thanks man, much appreciated. I may have fallen on the damned thing a couple weeks back, but my surgeon is pretty confident the repair held, so I'm hoping for the best. Aggressive rhythm playing is still pretty much out of the question, lead playing has been doable for a while now since you really need to keep your picking arm relaxed, anywya. 


Ernesto said:


> The fact that cognitive behavioral therapy is so successful and the phenomenon we call the placebo effect makes it pretty clear that most of our suffering, to a large degree, at least starts out in our heads.
> 
> Knowing that our thoughts and mindset can have such a strong effect on our physical reality can definitely empower people to literally use their minds to heal the "unhealable". Thinking, "I'm flawed, it's not my fault, and I'll never heal." is extremely detrimental to our health.


Be that as it may, that's no replacement for modern medicine.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Feb 13, 2018)

Drew said:


> Thanks man, much appreciated. I may have fallen on the damned thing a couple weeks back, but my surgeon is pretty confident the repair held, so I'm hoping for the best. Aggressive rhythm playing is still pretty much out of the question, lead playing has been doable for a while now since you really need to keep your picking arm relaxed, anyway.


Oh, for fucks sake. Nothing like getting surgery to repair something, and then testing it by falling on the damn thing just to test how well it held. 

Glad everything is okay post fall -- if you're like me, loss of an arm, or rather the use of one can make you pretty unstable. I think that would make my equilibrium pretty screwed up, so I can see how that could happen. As for rhythm playing, I think you need to change your technique, but that's only an uneducated guess. Couldn't hurt to reassess your rhythm picking technique and see if there is anything you are doing that is bad for your arm/shoulder.

Anyways, try to keep your arm out of harm's way.


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## odibrom (Feb 13, 2018)

No one is talking replacements, nor talking down on any kind of knowledge... just suggesting alternative points of view. There are lots of traditions involved on all cultures and a tradition is a betrayal of reason. YES, there are traditions in modern medicine, specially with medication for the mind. It all started out in mid of the previous century when the pharmaceutics gained some big ground in improving the "modern way of life" with lots of new vaccines and the stuff (all important btw, not talking down here, just pointing out some things). With that improvements also came those unnecessary pills for every single ache one could eventually have. "Hey doc, I can't sleep", "Sure, take these pills" or "Hey doc, I feel my memory fade", "sure thing, take these pills". At the beginning of the '80s I had my grandparents feeding themselves with pills for this and that that I though was completely insane. That tradition on prescribing pill for this and that still prevails. This approach is done by focusing only on what the patience complains about, so to say, treating the symptoms in most cases. Again, if the illness is on the other half of our psychosomatic existence, those pills will do nothing but camouflage the problem, and then it will grow. Unfortunately, this is not related to "the kind of medicine per se" but to the "practitioner of said medicine", as with everything. Generally, I'm suspicious on doctors who prescribe pills for common flu... which are the majority... unfortunately... (hence tradition exists).


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## Drew (Feb 13, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Oh, for fucks sake. Nothing like getting surgery to repair something, and then testing it by falling on the damn thing just to test how well it held.
> 
> Glad everything is okay post fall -- if you're like me, loss of an arm, or rather the use of one can make you pretty unstable. I think that would make my equilibrium pretty screwed up, so I can see how that could happen. As for rhythm playing, I think you need to change your technique, but that's only an uneducated guess. Couldn't hurt to reassess your rhythm picking technique and see if there is anything you are doing that is bad for your arm/shoulder.
> 
> Anyways, try to keep your arm out of harm's way.


There was, ahem, a certain amount of alcohol involved.  Not one of my finer moments, but... A close friend had a childhood buddy commit suicide a few days before, my buddy thought he should have been able to do more to stop him somehow, and decided he was just going to drink his sorrows away on Super Bowl Sunday, and after trying to talk him down for a while, eventually I just decided if you can't beat them, join them, and we ended up doing rather a lot of whiskey shots in the guy's name. I didnt even remember falling when I woke up, at first, and couldn't figure out why the fuck my chest was so sore.  

Really, I think the issue is I'm a blues guy at heart and I hit the strings pretty hard. Single note stuff is fine, but once you start to get a little more arm movement behind the pick, you begin to bring your bicep in, and the surgery was to repair a slap tear at the point where my bicep connects to my labrum, so anything bicep related is off limits.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Feb 13, 2018)

Drew said:


> There was, ahem, a certain amount of alcohol involved.  Not one of my finer moments, but... A close friend had a childhood buddy commit suicide a few days before, my buddy thought he should have been able to do more to stop him somehow, and decided he was just going to drink his sorrows away on Super Bowl Sunday, and after trying to talk him down for a while, eventually I just decided if you can't beat them, join them, and we ended up doing rather a lot of whiskey shots in the guy's name. I didnt even remember falling when I woke up, at first, and couldn't figure out why the fuck my chest was so sore.
> 
> Really, I think the issue is I'm a blues guy at heart and I hit the strings pretty hard. Single note stuff is fine, but once you start to get a little more arm movement behind the pick, you begin to bring your bicep in, and the surgery was to repair a slap tear at the point where my bicep connects to my labrum, so anything bicep related is off limits.




Well that sucks. I do most of my picking movements from the wrist.


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## Drew (Feb 13, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Well that sucks. I do most of my picking movements from the wrist.


Same - for me it's more of a slight forearm rotation, I guess, but it comes to the same place. Anyway, we're veering a little off topic her.e


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## Ernesto (Feb 13, 2018)

Drew said:


> Be that as it may, that's no replacement for modern medicine.



People I've seen heal, not mask, their mental issue with modern medicine = 0
People I've personally known that were slightly in the dumps, got on meds, and attempted or committed suicide= 6
People I've seen heal using natural methods= 20+

If I tear a hole in myself or break a bone, modern medicine is awesome. That's about all it's good for though.


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## odibrom (Feb 13, 2018)

Ernesto said:


> (...)
> If I tear a hole in myself or break a bone, modern medicine is awesome. That's about all it's good for though.



I wouldn't go that far... but yes, the big argument on modern medicine is surgery on all it's levels, neuro, bone, mio, transplants... Some chemistry is also top notch, like those that inhibit the body to reject organ transplants. I believe that psychic medicine has a lot to grow yet, in order to become on par with surgery.

The thing I think the modern medicine fails drastically (again, this is more practitioner dependent than knowledge type, nevertheless, tradition related) is recognizing that each patience is unique and as so should be treated. Most of the times they just try to box the patience whenever possible within the charts they have... it's sad, really.


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## Ernesto (Feb 13, 2018)

Joe Rogan has turned into more and more of a tool over the last few years but he sometimes has some interesting guests. The most recent podcast is one of those occasions, and pretty pertinent to this thread.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Feb 13, 2018)

Ernesto said:


> Joe Rogan has turned into more and more of a tool over the last few years but he sometimes has some interesting guests. The most recent podcast is one of those occasions, and pretty pertinent to this thread.



Eh... Joe has always been a tool. What are you talking about?


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## Ernesto (Feb 13, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Eh... Joe has always been a tool. What are you talking about?



Haha! Isn't that implied in the "more and more of a tool" part of my statement? 

That turdbag banned me from his forum three times! Once for standing up to an ignorant, violent, pharmaceutical pusher, once for wanting to help a suicidal forum member, and the last time for defending one of his supposed friends, Jan Irvin, from his mouthbreathing mods and followers. I think I might have to choke him until he says uncle if we ever meet. He's little though so that would be a little unfair and probably be considered bullying if I did it.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Feb 13, 2018)

Ernesto said:


> Haha! Isn't that implied in the "more and more of a tool" part of my statement?
> 
> That turdbag banned me from his forum three times! Once for standing up to an ignorant, violent, pharmaceutical pusher, once for wanting to help a suicidal forum member, and the last time for defending one of his supposed friends, Jan Irvin, from his mouthbreathing mods and followers. I think I might have to choke him until he says uncle if we ever meet. He's little though so that would be a little unfair and probably be considered bullying if I did it.


Why would you post on Joe Rogan's forum anyways? Who the hell even knew bullshit like that existed?


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## Ernesto (Feb 13, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Why would you post on Joe Rogan's forum anyways? Who the hell even knew bullshit like that existed?



This was years ago. A small percentage of the people that follow, or used to follow him, are/were really cool people and it was actually a fun little forum for a while.


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## Ernesto (Feb 13, 2018)

Regardless of his brotastic awesomeness and more recent CIA shilling, this is still my favorite comedy skit.


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## Drew (Feb 14, 2018)

Ernesto said:


> People I've seen heal, not mask, their mental issue with modern medicine = 0
> People I've personally known that were slightly in the dumps, got on meds, and attempted or committed suicide= 6
> People I've seen heal using natural methods= 20+
> 
> If I tear a hole in myself or break a bone, modern medicine is awesome. That's about all it's good for though.


So, sample size of, what, 30? And you're going to discount scientifically tested treatments based over tiny sample size anecdotal evidence?

If we're going to play that game, I've probably had about two dozen friends treat depression with a combination of therapy and medication, and while some of them have struggled with particular medications and have had to get off them and on to something else due to side effects, zero of them have committed suicide and all of them have had positive results.

Meanwhile, telling people "you don't need medicine, you need more organic food" just increases the stigma on people who ARE struggling with mental illness, for turning to medication, and can be dangerous and counterproductive by keeping people with mental illness off treatments that could potentially help them. I've got no personal horse in this race, I don't suffer from mental illness, exercise and eat fairly healthy myself, but attitudes like yours can potentially kill people, by closing off viable treatment options.

EDIT - also, doctors prescribing people "slightly in the dumps" antideprtessants? I'm going to call BS on that. They either were displaying more signs of clinical depression than you're letting on, or - given the risk of side effects - the doctors in question should be sued for malpractice, because being "slightly in the dumps" isn't clinical depression.


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## gnoll (Feb 14, 2018)

Potentially very serious problems shouldn't be trivialized by people with no real knowledge in the matter. Professionals are professionals for a reason, and people who could potentially be helped by said professionals should NOT be encouraged to stay away from them.


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## gnoll (Feb 14, 2018)

Also, giving advice when it comes to medical/psychological issues can have VERY serious consequences. Everyone should remember that, always.

Treating people is for professionals to do.


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## MFB (Feb 14, 2018)

gnoll said:


> Potentially very serious problems shouldn't be trivialized by people with no real knowledge in the matter. Professionals are professionals for a reason, and people who could potentially be helped by said professionals should NOT be encouraged to stay away from them.





gnoll said:


> Also, giving advice when it comes to medical/psychological issues can have VERY serious consequences. Everyone should remember that, always.
> 
> Treating people is for professionals to do.



Yea, but didn't you read:



> psychiatrists have asked me where I got my doctorate



I mean, that _basically_ makes him a professional now, so...


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## Drew (Feb 14, 2018)

MFB said:


> I mean, that _basically_ makes him a professional now, so...


People have offered me startup capital if I ever want a restaurant. That _basically_ makes me a Michelin-starred chef, and as good as my seared scallops are, while they've certainly picked up a few people "slightly in the dumps," they've never yet cured someone of clinical depression.


----------



## gnoll (Feb 14, 2018)

MFB said:


> Yea, but didn't you read:
> 
> 
> 
> I mean, that _basically_ makes him a professional now, so...



I don't care what's posted in this thread. I don't care what anyone in this thread claims to be or doesn't. It's an online forum accessible to anyone with an internet connection. No I didn't read the whole thread, I just got a bad enough vibe from it that I needed to write something. I was speaking in general terms. I didn't even write to anyone in particular or I would have quoted them.


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## Drew (Feb 14, 2018)

gnoll said:


> I don't care what's posted in this thread. I don't care what anyone in this thread claims to be or doesn't. It's an online forum accessible to anyone with an internet connection. No I didn't read the whole thread, I just got a bad enough vibe from it that I needed to write something. I was speaking in general terms. I didn't even write to anyone in particular or I would have quoted them.


MFB was being sarcastic, and pointing out that this guy's "qualifications" are hardly those of an expert.


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## gnoll (Feb 14, 2018)

Drew said:


> MFB was being sarcastic, and pointing out that this guy's "qualifications" are hardly those of an expert.



Mmh, right after I posted that something felt a bit off. Anyway I hadn't read the whole thread like I said, didn't even know who he quoted.


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## MFB (Feb 14, 2018)

gnoll said:


> I don't care what's posted in this thread. I don't care what anyone in this thread claims to be or doesn't. It's an online forum accessible to anyone with an internet connection. No I didn't read the whole thread, I just got a bad enough vibe from it that I needed to write something. I was speaking in general terms. I didn't even write to anyone in particular or I would have quoted them.





Drew said:


> MFB was being sarcastic, and pointing out that this guy's "qualifications" are hardly those of an expert.



Yeah, 100% sarcasm. I abso-fucking-lutely don't trust any rando spouting about 'holistic healing' for something like clinical depression, nor do I have any reason to believe that despite their own years of study and in-field research, in-field professionals asked a guy "where he got his _doctorate_" 

You should definitely read the whole thread, it's pretty great to see the - pretty sure it's still at one - outlying belief about this when everyone else seems to be of the "hey, professionals are going to be your best bet," while the OP has also talked with professionals.


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## Ernesto (Feb 14, 2018)

Drew said:


> So, sample size of, what, 30? And you're going to discount scientifically tested treatments based over tiny sample size anecdotal evidence?
> 
> If we're going to play that game, I've probably had about two dozen friends treat depression with a combination of therapy and medication, and while some of them have struggled with particular medications and have had to get off them and on to something else due to side effects, zero of them have committed suicide and all of them have had positive results.
> 
> ...



So, you've spent ten years intensively and independently researching this? I have. If you had any idea what you're talking about, I'd take the time to address your points.


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## Ernesto (Feb 14, 2018)

"Professional" only means that a person makes money applying the knowledge that they gained from government funded indoctrination centers using big pharma funded, blatantly biased, studies as curriculum. Actually curing people isn't nearly as profitable as covering up symptoms and causing more side effects.  I forgive the "doctors" though because most of them are acting in good faith but have no idea that they've been brainwashed and are blind to the fact that that their skill specialization actually prevents them from seeing the bigger picture.

Depression in hunter gatherers that live outside civilization is nearly nonexistent. 
https://www.filmsforaction.org/arti...erers-hold-the-key-to-the-cure-return-to-now/

If I thought I was dealing with an open minded audience, I could post hundreds of links to accredited studies that prove the points I made here.

I've said everything I need to say in this thread. If anyone that's actually taken the time to do their own research wants read my posts and provide actual evidence to refute them, I might take the time to reply.


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## Drew (Feb 14, 2018)

Ernesto said:


> So, you've spent ten years intensively and independently researching this? I have. If you had any idea what you're talking about, I'd take the time to address your points.


As Michael Bloomberg was fond of quipping, "In God we Trust. All others, bring data." I don't have to be an expert to point out that you're _not_ an expert, and that you're drawing conclusions from an awfully small, self-selected sample group.

Let me guess, you're an anti-vaxxer, too?


----------



## flexkill (Feb 14, 2018)

Drew said:


> As Michael Bloomberg was fond of quipping, "In God we Trust. All others, bring data." I don't have to be an expert to point out that you're _not_ an expert, and that you're drawing conclusions from an awfully small, self-selected sample group.
> 
> Let me guess, you're an anti-vaxxer, too?


You sound like a Suhr/Boogie playing twat?


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## Drew (Feb 14, 2018)

flexkill said:


> You sound like a Suhr/Boogie playing twat?


You're goddamn right I am!


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## Ernesto (Feb 14, 2018)

Drew said:


> As Michael Bloomberg was fond of quipping, "In God we Trust. All others, bring data." I don't have to be an expert to point out that you're _not_ an expert, and that you're drawing conclusions from an awfully small, self-selected sample group.
> 
> Let me guess, you're an anti-vaxxer, too?



I'm a primitive anarchist at heart and believe that Nature has a better plan than humans will ever be able to devise so I firmly believe that vaccinations devolve us and that vaccinating will likely be what creates the supervirus that kills us all.

As far as me drawing conclusions from a small sample group, your reading comprehension skills are definitely lacking. It doesn't matter whether someone does research at home or pays thousands of dollars to do it at a desk in school. Research is research and I've done enough of it to post the conclusions I've derived from it with 100% confidence in their accuracy.

Some of you guys need to open your minds a bit and actually READ for once in your lives.


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## Ernesto (Feb 14, 2018)

flexkill said:


> You sound like a Suhr/Boogie playing twat?


 
Does that mean that he buys what's trendy and what he's sold, even though the same sound and playability can be accomplished for a tenth of the price?

Makes sense to me!


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## flexkill (Feb 14, 2018)

Ernesto said:


> Does that mean that he buys what's trendy and what he's sold, even though the same sound and playability can be accomplished for a tenth of the price?
> 
> Makes sense to me!


No it doesn't. Drew is a great dude and I'm pretty sure he just does whatever the fuck he wants.


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## Ernesto (Feb 14, 2018)

Ernesto said:


> The fact that you're able to recognize the delusions means that you're definitely healing so the path you're taking is probably the right one for you.





Ernesto said:


> I just want to make it very clear that I'm not dismissing anyone's experience. If the pills are helping, great. I just wanted to make it very clear that the pills are a crutch that 99% of patients shouldn't need for more than a few months at a time, worst case scenario. I'm not saying that everyone will heal completely by adopting some daily practices that simulate natural life. I know there are some very sick people out there that need drugs to survive but even they would benefit greatly from following the advice that I posted above.



I guess I need to point out that I never recommended that OP or anyone should stop taking their meds based solely upon my advice.


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## Drew (Feb 14, 2018)

Ernesto said:


> I'm a primitive anarchist at heart and believe that Nature has a better plan than humans will ever be able to devise so I firmly believe that vaccinations devolve us and that vaccinating will likely be what creates the supervirus that kills us all.


Bingo. Anti-vaxxer. You guys are so predictable. "Do your research," of course, means ignore all the research done by all the people who actually ARE experts in this stuff and have dedicated their lives to studying it, and instead trust your gut, and a few websites with official-_sounding_ names that get most of their revenue by selling dietary supplements, right? 



Ernesto said:


> Does that mean that he buys what's trendy and what he's sold, even though the same sound and playability can be accomplished for a tenth of the price?
> 
> Makes sense to me!


Nah, it means Flex has known me for a long, long, time, and we enjoy busting each other's balls. Barring a brief Marshall period in college I've played Mesas for maybe fifteen or sixteen years because nothing else sounds the same, and while my Suhr Modern is comparatively "new" at only four years, it was chosen mostly because at the time that was one of the few ways I could get a superstrat seven string with an ash or alder body and a maple neck, and I'd have done that a good ten years before if I could have afforded to. But that's neither here nor there.


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## Drew (Feb 14, 2018)

Ernesto said:


> I guess I need to point out that I never recommended that OP or anyone should stop taking their meds based solely upon my advice.


THANK YOU. That's really all that needs to be said here. If you want to try alternative approaches to combating depression _on top of_ antidepression meds and/or therapy, by all means. However, these are treatment plans that have been scientifically proven to work, with depression treatment failure usually ends in self-harm, and encouraging people to go off the reservation without consulting with your doctor, or even creating the impression that you're encouraging people to do so, is EXTREMELY dangerous. 

Seriously, I'm all for encouraging people to eat better and get more exercise _anyway_. But, that's not a clinically proven treatment for depression.


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## odibrom (Feb 14, 2018)

Some people jump into conclusions by reading what is not written. They only need a different point of view to box a subject into their own charts. What's the need for that? That kind of behavior is responsible for creating depression on other people.

Please treat each other as unique and without prejudice/bias/preconception/prejudgement... also, PLEASE do not judge other's choices or beliefs. That's the path to rage... and depression and all that shit. Give each other the benefit of doubt, try not to assume what is not said... that's the path to the dark side, it ain't stronger, only faster on getting shit done, literally... huuummm, that one came out weird...


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## Ernesto (Feb 14, 2018)

Drew said:


> If you want to try alternative approaches to combating depression _on top of_ antidepression meds and/or therapy, by all means.



It's apparent that you didn't actually read my posts before commenting on them. That's a shame.

Regarding the quoted statement above, while someone is on the pills, their body is incapable of retraining itself to regulate the neurochemicals naturally so it's necessary to try getting off of the pills and see how they do once they've been practicing the holistic practices for a while.

Taking psyche meds is very similar to MDMA abuse in that the body becomes dependent upon it. If you artificially dump dopamine into your system constantly by taking MDMA regularly, the body stops producing the dopamine because it's getting it externally. When MDMA addicts go clean, they are usually very depressed for a long time afterwards.

The way I've helped others get off the meds is by having them practice the holistic treatments while they are able to due to the artificial relief that the meds provide. Once they've adapted the anti-depression lifestyle and it becomes habit, I have them ask their doctors to slowly wean them off of the pills and monitor how they feel as the dosages are reduced. Once they're off of the meds, if the depression comes back at an unmanageable level, I definitely recommend that they go to the doc and get back on the regimen. It can take a few months, or even years of repeating this process, but I have a 100% success rate.


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## TedEH (Feb 14, 2018)

Ernesto said:


> I could post hundreds of links to accredited studies that prove the points I made here


Then do so. Your points don't mean anything if you don't back them up with something. If you're in the position of challenging established/accepted ideas, then you gatta back it up with something or nobody will believe you.



Ernesto said:


> If you had any idea what you're talking about, I'd take the time to address your points.


Again, if you're going to make the argument, then might as well go all in. "I could prove you wrong... but I won't" clearly isn't helpful in any conversation.



Ernesto said:


> government funded indoctrination centers


Also, saying stuff like this doesn't do you any favors.


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## Ernesto (Feb 14, 2018)

TedEH said:


> Then do so. Your points don't mean anything if you don't back them up with something. If you're in the position of challenging established/accepted ideas, then you gatta back it up with something or nobody will believe you.
> 
> 
> Again, if you're going to make the argument, then might as well go all in. "I could prove you wrong... but I won't" clearly isn't helpful in any conversation.
> ...



Have you looked at the links I posted already? (rhetorical question) You obviously haven't even read my posts!

Five minutes of internet searching will confirm everything I've said here. I know that your internet works because you're using it to blather here. I know your type. You will find a way to discredit any link I post because your cognitive dissonance is preventing you from being unbiased. Maybe you'll see the light if you do your own research and vet the sources yourself?

I'm sorry that the truth offends you but most colleges are funded by the government and corporations and neither of those institutions could function if people were healthy and able to function independently.

Due to your reactions here and after seeing a lot of your other posts on this forum, it's pretty clear to me that you're either determined to remain ignorant, or you just like trolling. I have no respect for people with either of those qualities so won't be interacting with you in the future.

Have a nice afternoon.


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## MFB (Feb 14, 2018)

> Five minutes of internet searching will confirm everything I've said here. I know that your internet works because you're using it to blather here. I know your type. You will find a way to discredit any link I post because your cognitive dissonance is preventing you from being unbiased. Maybe you'll see the light if you do your own research and vet the sources yourself?



I'm getting deja vu...

Paging VC4Ever, paging VC4Ever?


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## TedEH (Feb 14, 2018)

Wait what? Collages don't work because people aren't independent? As someone who went to college, and then used those skills and experiences to find gainful employment that I couldn't have gotten otherwise, I have no idea what point you're trying to make. 



Ernesto said:


> I have no respect for people with either of those qualities so won't be interacting with you in the future.


I even made a point in another thread that there were no hard feelings involved with disagreeing with someone. There's no need for this kind of comment. 



Ernesto said:


> Five minutes of internet searching will confirm everything I've said here.


You can "confirm" almost anything, true or not, with some googling. Any and every opinion is out there if you search for it. Nothing you've presented so far has convinced me that your solution for dealing with depression is superior to anyone else's.


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## odibrom (Feb 14, 2018)

@TedEH I think the problem is exactly there, where you seem to think (I'm guessing since I can't know what you are thinking, obviously; I'm sorry if I'm exceeding myself here) that what he is saying is superior to anything else. I only read that this is HIS experience, he's sharing his life experience and I think we should be grateful for him to take the time.

I never felt @Ernesto was trying to do the "I'm better than everyone else" move.

This to say that no one is correct (as the only one) in this subject and that this internet forum (SSO) is music/guitar oriented so I doubt anyone will use it as a reliable source of information on anything besides guitar/bass/music related subjects. This also means that we (all users here) shouldn't take these publications so personal, nor take it to the personal side of life. It will only lead to disappointments and... yes, depression of some sort.

None of your arguing is/was helpful to @Discoqueen, in my opinion, obviously.

Having this said, please, chill out, go play some guitar, no one needs to trow in their academic achievements in order to make point on something against someone who may or may not have any of those certificates.

2 final quotes,
Show must go on... - Freddy Mercury and Queen
The mind is a terrible thing to taste... 1989 Album from Ministry


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## Drew (Feb 15, 2018)

Ernesto said:


> It's apparent that you didn't actually read my posts before commenting on them. That's a shame.
> 
> Regarding the quoted statement above, while someone is on the pills, their body is incapable of retraining itself to regulate the neurochemicals naturally so it's necessary to try getting off of the pills and see how they do once they've been practicing the holistic practices for a while.
> 
> ...


Yes, it's because you're not an authority on this, not citing credible sources, and really shouldn't be advising patients to make any treatment changes. 

If you think all you need to know about psychotherapy is what you've learned from five minutes on the internet, then I'm going to politely suggest you step back and leave this to the professionals who have spent years of their lives studying these subjects.


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## wannabguitarist (Feb 15, 2018)

Discoqueen said:


> Thanks, I’ve been avoiding setting goals because I didn’t wanna ha resent having to do something when I was exhausted



@Discoqueen I went through a bad depressive episode towards the end of 2016 that lead to me quitting or stopping a lot of the things I loved. During my recovery/rediscovery of myself I actually found that setting and accomplishing small goals did wonders for my mental health and well being. Of course I didn't actually accomplish everyday so I had to learn how to handle setbacks without giving up (still an on going process), but take every small victory you can. 

If I got home from work 11pm I would make it a goal to play for 10-15 minutes. Some nights I would just noodle around or hold the guitar while trying to find a tab before falling asleep. Still counted that as a win. Doesn't even have to be guitar really; you just want to pick something that can lead to some small feeling of progress. Books, a challenging video game, exercise.

Hope that helps. As always consult a professional and good luck 



MFB said:


> I'm getting deja vu...
> 
> Paging VC4Ever, paging VC4Ever?



This is the far left wing version of that guy. I'd love to watch that conversation from the sidelines with a pint of whiskey


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## gujukal (Feb 17, 2018)

Try stay committed and learn a song, start in a slower tempo and build it up. It will keep you more motivated i think than just playing something random.


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