# Fortin SIGIL



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 1, 2020)

Welp


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## narad (Jan 1, 2020)

It's larger than I imagined.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 1, 2020)

narad said:


> It's larger than I imagined.



Yeah, I don't think it's gonna fit on my stompbox. 

@technomancer New amp, new thread?


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## technomancer (Jan 1, 2020)

Yeah curious to see what that amp is... and if the evil pumpkin actually comes out.

Also, ask and you will get a new thread


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 1, 2020)

technomancer said:


> Yeah curious to see what that amp is... and if the evil pumpkin actually comes out.
> 
> Also, ask and you will get a new thread



Yeah just didn't know if you wanted another thread clogging shit up. 

Also someone pointed out it might be a mini lunchbox head. I can MAYBE see it, looking at the reflection of the handle.


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## sirbuh (Jan 1, 2020)

Possibly using "Sigil" as a representation of something larger..so heard it here first lunchbox it is.


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## lewis (Jan 1, 2020)

I get the buzz i do but realistically, dont all his amps end up sounding the same?

I.e that Satan/meshuggah ultra tight/twangy tone?

Its just other features that get added that separate his amps right? (Like a built in gate or something similar)


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## cwhitey2 (Jan 1, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Yeah just didn't know if you wanted another thread clogging shit up.
> 
> Also someone pointed out it might be a mini lunchbox head. I can MAYBE see it, looking at the reflection of the handle.


I agree with your statement about the handle. 

It will probably cost 2.5k minimum


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## oniduder (Jan 1, 2020)

yeah i don't know how much i care


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## Spinedriver (Jan 1, 2020)

Judging by the size of the name plate and the power light, I'd say it's 'mini head' sized like the 6505 MH or Mesa MkV mini.
But yeah, it will NOT be cheap that's for sure.


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## narad (Jan 1, 2020)

It's either a mini-head or a very large tc electronic integrated preamp.

Seriously though, if it's like a single-channel kali mod or something of that sort, coming in close to $2k, I could maybe justify it. I don't need a Fortin clean channel, just give me the goods.


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## Werecow (Jan 1, 2020)

lewis said:


> I get the buzz i do but realistically, dont all his amps end up sounding the same?
> 
> I.e that Satan/meshuggah ultra tight/twangy tone?
> 
> Its just other features that get added that separate his amps right? (Like a built in gate or something similar)



I have two Fortin designed amps and they're very different animals. I don't own the Meshuggah though. I actually hated every youtube video i heard of that apart from one i think, and yeh the twangyness was sorta what i hated about it, but mainly the harsh top end.

So i think they do have different characteristics.


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## Wizard of Ozz (Jan 1, 2020)

Whose amp design did he rip-off and repackage this time?


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## Wizard of Ozz (Jan 1, 2020)

narad said:


> It's larger than I imagined.




That’s what she said.


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## sakeido (Jan 2, 2020)

Good idea. Little amp with big tone is a winning formula. 

the SLO 30 tho


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## MASS DEFECT (Jan 2, 2020)

I hope it is the 50w poweramp.


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## mongey (Jan 2, 2020)

Maybe I’m old an cynical , well I am , but the whole new amp shrouded in mystery thing is ridiculous 

so this mysterious amp is gonna do something the tens of thousands of amps designed before it have never done ?


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## USMarine75 (Jan 2, 2020)

Don't get me wrong... if I had the cash I'd own a Fortin or two. But IMO there's nothing his $4k amps do that sounds much better than any other similarly modded Marshall... and back in the day I could get a 2203 modded by FJAMODs for $2k.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Jan 2, 2020)

Meh..I'm tired of every company coming up with a mini amp just because everyone thinks they need a mini version of shit that already exists. I'll just buy the full sized head and call it a day


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## Alex79 (Jan 2, 2020)

mongey said:


> Maybe I’m old an cynical , well I am , but the whole new amp shrouded in mystery thing is ridiculous
> 
> so this mysterious amp is gonna do something the tens of thousands of amps designed before it have never done ?



That's how Fortin rolls. That and a very exclusive/limited range of buyers, to create an aura of mythical excellence.


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## technomancer (Jan 2, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Meh..I'm tired of every company coming up with a mini amp just because everyone thinks they need a mini version of shit that already exists. I'll just buy the full sized head and call it a day



While I agree companies put out what sells and everybody and their brother wants a mini-amp... actually the number of guys buying the Marshall mini-plexi and bitching because it is loud are hilarious and shows just how ignorant most buyers are. A 20w amp cranked will still shake your walls and piss off the neighbors 

As for the advertising, that's how pretty much everybody rolls currently. Post teaser, unveil at NAMM. I'm also in the just post the info and get it over with camp, but again apparently some people eat shit like teasers and private groups up.

As for Sigil, I'm betting 2204 mini with diode clipping.. so 20w EL34, 3 gain stages, diodes aka a 20w Meshuggah circuit


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## sleewell (Jan 2, 2020)

i don't have enough disposable income to sufficiently comment on this brand.


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## efiltsohg (Jan 2, 2020)

technomancer said:


> While I agree companies put out what sells and everybody and their brother wants a mini-amp... actually the number of guys buying the Marshall mini-plexi and bitching because it is loud are hilarious and shows just how ignorant most buyers are. A 20w amp cranked will still shake your walls and piss off the neighbors
> 
> As for the advertising, that's how pretty much everybody rolls currently. Post teaser, unveil at NAMM. I'm also in the just post the info and get it over with camp, but again apparently some people eat shit like teasers and private groups up.
> 
> As for Sigil, I'm betting 2204 mini with diode clipping.. so 20w EL34, 3 gain stages, diodes aka a 20w Meshuggah circuit



Yeah, of all my amps, the lunchbox (Egnater) is the least usable at low volume


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## Werecow (Jan 2, 2020)

efiltsohg said:


> Yeah, of all my amps, the lunchbox (Egnater) is the least usable at low volume



That's what i don't understand about the lunchboxes i've tried (EVH mini thing, and the PRS). The EVH actually needed volume way past typical bedroom volume to sound good, where as my 50w EVH sounds amazing at whisper quiet volume. The PRS blew my face off after trying to move the volume from zero up by the width of a human hair  Even my 100w amps are more manageable.

I'm sure there's a lunchbox out there somewhere that actually does what it should be superior at... bedroom and home playing?


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 2, 2020)

Werecow said:


> I'm sure there's a lunchbox out there somewhere that actually does what it should be superior at... bedroom and home playing?



Not really.

Lunchbox amps are predicted on the false notion that wattage and volume are linear in relation. 

That's just not how it works. 

Let's not forget that the first small "lunchbox" amps were built more for cost and space saving than "loud tone, but not loud".


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## SamSam (Jan 2, 2020)

If it is a "Meshuggah" lunch box I'll be extremely tempted. Dibs on main argument against it being the low wattage vs headroom for low tuning debate


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## technomancer (Jan 2, 2020)

SamSam said:


> If it is a "Meshuggah" lunch box I'll be extremely tempted. Dibs on main argument against it being the low wattage vs headroom for low tuning debate



I'm sure it won't be billed that way but as some super-new circuit... but given easy to produce in a small form factor it wouldn't surprise me if they go that route.


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## Thaeon (Jan 2, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Not really.
> 
> Lunchbox amps are predicted on the false notion that wattage and volume are linear in relation.
> 
> ...



Jeff Bober started the low wattage thing in the 90's. And he wasn't making an 18 watt 10" combo that was quiet. That thing was UNGODLY loud. His new company makes a 1 or 2 watt that will do gig volume.


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## sakeido (Jan 2, 2020)

If you ever sit around with a measurement microphone and do a little math, it's surprising how little wattage it takes to make volume.

My basement stereo at my "ideal" volume (85dB) is using about 0.5 watts to make that power. Even the most gigantic transient peaks probably take less than 5 watts to reproduce.

My Dual Rec through a 4x12 with V30s takes a whopping 0.1 watt to make the same amount of volume. With the -20dB attenuation from the Torpedo it'd be about 40 watts total.

Assuming 40% power is the "sweet spot", with a 20 watt lunchbox will sweet spot at 8 watts which is 105dB through a Vintage 30 4x12 cab. Insanely fucking loud. Earplug territory, with a "safe" non-hearing-protected exposure time of about 3 minutes.

imo amps (lunchbox or full size) should have all attenuation built into them. Nobody needs the volume levels these things are capable of, but tube amps do require some push to sound right, so it's kinda unavoidable. Reducing the amount of wattage available by stepping down to a lunchbox absolutely doesn't solve the problem and comes with its own tonal compromises from using little tubes.


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## Shask (Jan 2, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Not really.
> 
> Lunchbox amps are predicted on the false notion that wattage and volume are linear in relation.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I have always hated lunchbox amps for this reason. They just sound small, and loud. Small sound, loud volume, lol. I have always found 100W to 150W amps sound better, even when they are turned down. They have the depth in the low end that translates well to lower volumes.

I think the PRS MT15 is the first lunchbox I have heard that sounds decent. It is still loud though, and uses big tubes. That is one major key of why it sounds better.


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## LeftOurEyes (Jan 2, 2020)

After playing a few lunchbox amps I no longer have any interest in them. Just gonna get 50w or larger amps from now on and use an attenuator or volume pedal in the loop. My lunchbox amps don't sound any better than my 100w amps at low volumes, but sound horrible at band volumes. El84 amps sound harsh and mushy at loud volumes. I cant use any of them when jamming with a loud drummer not because they aren't loud enough but because they sound bad at that volume.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 2, 2020)

Lunchbox amps would be better if they took the MT15 route of having a full-sized power amp with the voltage dropped.. That amp sounds ungodly good for a 15 watter.

But yeah, with the advent of reactive loads and IR loaders (especially all in one units), lunchbox amps are kinda... meh? unless you REALLY wanted a semi-lightweight head.


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## narad (Jan 2, 2020)

Should separate discussion of <size of chassis> from <wattage> from <tube type>. A lunchbox is a size.


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## StevenC (Jan 2, 2020)

narad said:


> Should separate discussion of <size of chassis> from <wattage> from <tube type>. A lunchbox is a size.


That isn't big enough for real tubes and transformers.


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## narad (Jan 2, 2020)

StevenC said:


> That isn't big enough for real tubes and transformers.



How much of a size difference is there going to be between the Sigil and the Diezel Schmidt? And the Schmidt transformers may even be larger than the VH4's.


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## StevenC (Jan 2, 2020)

narad said:


> How much of a size difference is there going to be between the Sigil and the Diezel Schmidt? And the Schmidt transformers may even be larger than the VH4's.


I meant lunchboxes, not however big this is.


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## efiltsohg (Jan 2, 2020)

Shask said:


> I think the PRS MT15 is the first lunchbox I have heard that sounds decent. It is still loud though, and uses big tubes. That is one major key of why it sounds better.



big tubes & big transformer


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## wakjob (Jan 2, 2020)

Wizard of Ozz said:


> Whose amp design did he rip-off and repackage this time?



Didn't realize this was a thing...

His amps don't sound Jose', Cameron, Friedman, ect...


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 2, 2020)

wakjob said:


> Didn't realize this was a thing...
> 
> His amps don't sound Jose', Cameron, Friedman, ect...




@Wizard of Ozz


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## Thaeon (Jan 2, 2020)

wakjob said:


> Didn't realize this was a thing...
> 
> His amps don't sound Jose', Cameron, Friedman, ect...



They're all a modified radio design. There's not a lot that can change. The biggest difference I can really think of other than resistor values is in whether or not you have a cascading gain circuit. Which is similar to having a tube driven boost with EQ on the front end of a regular design.


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## Shask (Jan 2, 2020)

Thaeon said:


> They're all a modified radio design. There's not a lot that can change. The biggest difference I can really think of other than resistor values is in whether or not you have a cascading gain circuit. Which is similar to having a tube driven boost with EQ on the front end of a regular design.


His pedals were repackages. The 33 and Grind are both variations of the old TC Electronic Integrated Preamp. I think the Blade might be also. The Zuul was the noise gate from the Marshall 2203KK head.


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## technomancer (Jan 2, 2020)

I swear every Fortin and Cameron thread always follows the exact same circle


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## wakjob (Jan 2, 2020)

technomancer said:


> I swear every Fortin and Cameron thread always follows the exact same circle



Right? Honestly, who cares? 
Nikola Tesla won't see a dime either way.


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## technomancer (Jan 2, 2020)

wakjob said:


> Right? Honestly, who cares?
> Nikola Tesla won't see a dime either way.



I mean it's good for people to be informed to help curb mindless hype, but it does get comical


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 2, 2020)

Shask said:


> His pedals were repackages. The 33 and Grind are both variations of the old TC Electronic Integrated Preamp. I think the Blade might be also. The Zuul was the noise gate from the Marshall 2203KK head.



I heard the Blade sounded nothing like the TC Preamp from someone that owned both. 

Also didn't know about the 2203KK thing?


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## narad (Jan 2, 2020)

technomancer said:


> I mean it's good for people to be informed to help curb mindless hype, but it does get comical



I don't mind the amp stuff since everyone's recycling those mods, but when the pedals are crippled versions of existing things and guys are coordinating to hype them up to $500+ on Reverb, well, that's pretty lame, and deserves frequent exposing.

Kinda surprised some more mass-market pedal company, like MXR, hasn't released some version of the integrated pre.


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## technomancer (Jan 2, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I heard the Blade sounded nothing like the TC Preamp from someone that owned both.
> 
> Also didn't know about the 2203KK thing?



Yep, exact same THAT4301 gate circuit as in the KK

Larry from Larry Amplification also called him out for lifting the Girth and Grind / HF / LF gain controls directly from his amp designs etc etc etc


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 2, 2020)

technomancer said:


> Yep, exact same THAT4301 gate circuit as in the KK
> 
> Larry from Larry Amplification also called him out for lifting the Girth and Grind / HF / LF gain controls directly from his amp designs.



Jeez. 

The Larry one is the one I'm familiar with. IIRC Mike actually owns a Dino and ALLEGEDLY copied it from that.


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## StevenC (Jan 2, 2020)

narad said:


> I don't mind the amp stuff since everyone's recycling those mods, but when the pedals are crippled versions of existing things and guys are coordinating to hype them up to $500+ on Reverb, well, that's pretty lame, and deserves frequent exposing.
> 
> Kinda surprised some more mass-market pedal company, like MXR, hasn't released some version of the integrated pre.


Are you telling me I shouldn't have spent my record lottery win on a 33?


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 2, 2020)

narad said:


> Kinda surprised some more mass-market pedal company, like MXR, hasn't released some version of the integrated pre.



Seriously, why? Companies are sloooowly trickling out Preamp clones, finally, but it's still slow.

I got a Preamp clone and it's probably the best boost I've ever used.


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## narad (Jan 2, 2020)

StevenC said:


> Are you telling me I shouldn't have spent my record lottery win on a 33?



Shoulda waited 'til NAMM.


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## wakjob (Jan 2, 2020)

Lets face it. 
The gear market is as saturated as I've ever seen it.
Competition and innovation is a players paradise these days. We are SO spoiled.

So for someone to take a shortcut, it has to be expected in a monkey see monkey do niche world.

"What's hot?"..."Lets do that too!". Copy/Paste.


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## Meeotch (Jan 2, 2020)

I also hadn't heard the Zuul = 2203KK gate, but at the end of the day, I spent the same amount on it that I did on the Decimator G String. Sold the Decimator, love the Zuul.

Can't comment on any of his OD pedals but I can understand the frustrations there.

I also bought a Cali from the first run, and sold it. Wishing now that I had kept it but gas is a bitch. I can't compare it to all the best modded Marshall tones, but it sounded incredible. Super fast response, and the greasiest, grindiest, well-balanced mids I've ever heard. I'm far from a fanboy but am excited for this next release. Hoping for something more in the 5150 camp!


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## Hollowway (Jan 2, 2020)

Let me ask you guys know know how amps work (from an electrical standpoint) a question. We generally accept that the “bigness” of the amp comes from full sized tubes and transformers. As we’ve seen from a couple of designs, you can reduce the number of full sized tubes to make a lunch box amp (like the MT15). But that doesn’t address the transformers. Is there a way to use larger transformers in something like an MT15? Or is that not possible, electrically?


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## Shask (Jan 2, 2020)

Hollowway said:


> Let me ask you guys know know how amps work (from an electrical standpoint) a question. We generally accept that the “bigness” of the amp comes from full sized tubes and transformers. As we’ve seen from a couple of designs, you can reduce the number of full sized tubes to make a lunch box amp (like the MT15). But that doesn’t address the transformers. Is there a way to use larger transformers in something like an MT15? Or is that not possible, electrically?


Yeah, you should be able to use larger transformers in smaller amps. However, they are heavy, and more expensive, which kind of goes against the fact that people expect lunchbox amps to be cheap and light.

Think about the old rack tube poweramps. A lot of iron, power, and weight in relatively small space of 2-3 rack spaces. Heck, even a Racto or short Mark series amp kind of falls in that category.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 2, 2020)

Apparently if you use a bigger transformer in the MT15, that's what makes it into a 50-watt amp.


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## Hollowway (Jan 3, 2020)

Shask said:


> Yeah, you should be able to use larger transformers in smaller amps. However, they are heavy, and more expensive, which kind of goes against the fact that people expect lunchbox amps to be cheap and light.
> 
> Think about the old rack tube poweramps. A lot of iron, power, and weight in relatively small space of 2-3 rack spaces. Heck, even a Racto or short Mark series amp kind of falls in that category.


The reason I’m asking is that we, as modern metal players, want nothing but clean power amp volume. So we don’t need power tube distortion or sag, or any of that. We don’t always need a lot of headroom, in the sense that practicing at home doesn’t require it, recording doesn’t require it, and live it can be mic’ed. So if you could, for instance, give me an amp with the normal preamp, but only one EL34, and yet the same transformer setup as in a 4xEL34 amp, then I could basically have a 25 watt amp with everything else the same. 
I see what you’re saying, though. It’s not going to be much smaller, and won’t be much lighter, and won’t be much cheaper. (And I should just go with a SS power amp!)


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## Thaeon (Jan 3, 2020)

Hollowway said:


> The reason I’m asking is that we, as modern metal players, want nothing but clean power amp volume. So we don’t need power tube distortion or sag, or any of that. We don’t always need a lot of headroom, in the sense that practicing at home doesn’t require it, recording doesn’t require it, and live it can be mic’ed. So if you could, for instance, give me an amp with the normal preamp, but only one EL34, and yet the same transformer setup as in a 4xEL34 amp, then I could basically have a 25 watt amp with everything else the same.
> I see what you’re saying, though. It’s not going to be much smaller, and won’t be much lighter, and won’t be much cheaper. (And I should just go with a SS power amp!)



It’ll be heavy as all hell. Big iron is big weight. The problem is that there is no substitute for headroom. Requires more power to reproduce low end. Even at lower volumes. If you’re using a six string in standard, you won’t notice it as much. But a 7, tuned to G# and you’re going to miss the wattage because the power amp doesn’t have the juice to push the speakers the same way. An oversized transformer can only be under utilized in lower wattage amps. Lower wattage amps have a great sound. Raw. Nasty. Like they’re about to explode when cranked. But tight beefy low end isn’t part of that sound since it can’t generate the energy required for it.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 3, 2020)

Hollowway said:


> The reason I’m asking is that we, as modern metal players, want nothing but clean power amp volume. So we don’t need power tube distortion or sag, or any of that. We don’t always need a lot of headroom, in the sense that practicing at home doesn’t require it, recording doesn’t require it, and live it can be mic’ed. So if you could, for instance, give me an amp with the normal preamp, but only one EL34, and yet the same transformer setup as in a 4xEL34 amp, then I could basically have a 25 watt amp with everything else the same.
> I see what you’re saying, though. It’s not going to be much smaller, and won’t be much lighter, and won’t be much cheaper. (And I should just go with a SS power amp!)



I can't say I fully agree with this. 

A big, cold power section works for the 5150, but I like the sound of big Marshall and Mesa power amps too.


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## Wizard of Ozz (Jan 3, 2020)

wakjob said:


> Didn't realize this was a thing...
> 
> His amps don't sound Jose', Cameron, Friedman, ect...





HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Jeez.
> 
> The Larry one is the one I'm familiar with. IIRC Mike actually owns a Dino and ALLEGEDLY copied it from that.




More like Larry Grohm and Steve Fryette. Larry Grohm called Mike Fortin out (more than once and on more than one online forum) about straight plagiarizing his work. Larry went so far as posting detailed pics on his Facebook, of his amps, component by component, telling Mike he’d make it easy form him to copy and basically in the end Mike’s amps will still sound like @$$. I agree with Larry.

Fortin is a hack and hype-maker. His amps are almost as bad as his sad half-arsed old Afflicition clothing looking graphics he uses. Sad. I won’t even comment on “his” pedal designs. Rich kids without a clue = Fortin’s best customers.

For the record, I’ve owned more than one Fortin and they were bad enough for me to not buy anymore.


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## Hollowway (Jan 3, 2020)

Wizard of Ozz said:


> More like Larry Grohm and Steve Fryette. Larry Grohm called Mike Fortin out (more than once and on more than one online forum) about straight plagiarizing his work. Larry went so far as posting detailed pics on his Facebook, of his amps, component by component, telling Mike he’d make it easy form him to copy and basically in the end Mike’s amps will still sound like @$$. I agree with Larry.
> 
> Fortin is a hack and hype-maker. His amps are almost as bad as his sad half-arsed old Afflicition clothing looking graphics he uses. Sad. I won’t even comment on “his” pedal designs. Rich kids without a clue = Fortin’s best customers.
> 
> For the record, I’ve owned more than one Fortin and they were bad enough for me to not buy anymore.



I saw you guys posting about this on the heavy metal amps FB page. I don’t really know anything about what goes on under the hood of an amp, but if Fortin did copy the Larry amps, wouldn’t they sound the same? Why would they sound worse, if it’s a copy? I haven’t heard anyone having problems with them, so I’m genuinely curious about it. I am not ok with people stealing other people’s IP, but I guess I don’t know enough about amps to know how you could copy a circuit and not have it come out the same.


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## Shask (Jan 3, 2020)

Hollowway said:


> The reason I’m asking is that we, as modern metal players, want nothing but clean power amp volume. So we don’t need power tube distortion or sag, or any of that. We don’t always need a lot of headroom, in the sense that practicing at home doesn’t require it, recording doesn’t require it, and live it can be mic’ed. So if you could, for instance, give me an amp with the normal preamp, but only one EL34, and yet the same transformer setup as in a 4xEL34 amp, then I could basically have a 25 watt amp with everything else the same.
> I see what you’re saying, though. It’s not going to be much smaller, and won’t be much lighter, and won’t be much cheaper. (And I should just go with a SS power amp!)



Now, that wont work. A Push-Pull amplifier needs 2 power tubes. You can run 1 power tube in Class A, but then you cannot have a presence/resonance feedback circuit. That is why none of the small mid-gain amps with 1 power tube have presence/resonance controls. The power tubes must come in pairs if you expect these types of controls. The Class A power amps usually are more stiff feeling, without much frequency change. A typical Class AB power amp is usually more mid scooped because of the presence / Resonance feedback circuits. More tubes also pulls more power, which is what generates the power pull associated with "bloom" to create the chugs.

I actually built a little amp like... 20 ( ? ....damn...) years ago. It was 4 gain stages, high gain Marshall JCM800 type thing into a single EL34 tube. It was 10-15 W. It is still laying in my basement somewhere, lol. It always sounded pretty good, but never had the depth of a big amp. Actually, maybe I should get it out and update with my new knowledge... hmmm...

I think what would be interesting to see is to use a 12AX7 as a power tube. Make like a 0.5W power amp, but then use both triodes with a full feedback circuit for presence/resonance. I am not sure if it would be distorted ass, or be a cool micro poweramp. What they need to do is create a new type of power tube that is structured like a 12AX7 with 2 sides, but smaller than a EL34/6L6. Like take 2 6L6s, shrink them to half size, and stick them in a single tube. Something like that could change the game. EDIT: A single 6L6 can produce 30W in Mono. They should make a "stereo" 6L6 that can produce 15W per side. That would be awesome.


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## technomancer (Jan 3, 2020)

Oh look, Fortin Marketing created a new account 

Standard MO: anything that isn't glowingly positive is hate with no basis in reality and whoever is saying it is a hater.

You can have issues with things about a brand and have valid points and not be a mindless hater. 

Hell I am likely buying the Evil Pumpkin if it releases and have owned the Grind, 33, Zuul, and a Cali Marshall mod I had Mike do for me several years ago. The only reason I haven't bought the current Cali is the hinting that the Evil Pumpkin is finally going to be produced.


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## narad (Jan 3, 2020)

I don't understand the love for the Evil Pumpkin. Maybe the clips were old, but I never thought that sounded particularly good. Great attack and response, but just fizz afterwards. What circuit is that?


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## efiltsohg (Jan 3, 2020)

Hollowway said:


> I saw you guys posting about this on the heavy metal amps FB page. I don’t really know anything about what goes on under the hood of an amp, but if Fortin did copy the Larry amps, wouldn’t they sound the same? Why would they sound worse, if it’s a copy? I haven’t heard anyone having problems with them, so I’m genuinely curious about it. I am not ok with people stealing other people’s IP, but I guess I don’t know enough about amps to know how you could copy a circuit and not have it come out the same.


agreed, it's either he copied these good amps or Fortins are bad amps, can't really be both


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## sakeido (Jan 3, 2020)

Thaeon said:


> It’ll be heavy as all hell. Big iron is big weight. The problem is that there is no substitute for headroom. Requires more power to reproduce low end. Even at lower volumes. If you’re using a six string in standard, you won’t notice it as much. But a 7, tuned to G# and you’re going to miss the wattage because the power amp doesn’t have the juice to push the speakers the same way. An oversized transformer can only be under utilized in lower wattage amps. Lower wattage amps have a great sound. Raw. Nasty. Like they’re about to explode when cranked. But tight beefy low end isn’t part of that sound since it can’t generate the energy required for it.



that is literally not how amps work but whatever


----------



## technomancer (Jan 3, 2020)

narad said:


> I don't understand the love for the Evil Pumpkin. Maybe the clips were old, but I never thought that sounded particularly good. Great attack and response, but just fizz afterwards. What circuit is that?



It's a one-off based on Fortin's Hulk mod and pretty much nobody knows what that is at this point because there were so few Hulks done.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 3, 2020)

Amp folks are weird. 

Carry on. I shit canned the troll.


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## cardinal (Jan 3, 2020)

Fortin gives us what we deserve, in some ways. Most of us should simply be playing used Prestige guitars and either a DSL 50, 5150, or whatever Recto was available on Craigslist if we weren't driven to find something exclusive or unobtainable, whether it's something vintage, a rare circuit version, etc. Fortin and others have figured out marketing to be able to sell new items that still capitalize on what we all really want (exclusive, unobtainable stuff). And in some ways, it's a gift to the buyers (that can afford it) because it props up the prices on the used market (buy a readily available Friedman and its value plummets as soon as you walk out the door with it), but it also it a bit of a circle jerk and somewhat sadistically encourages selling the previous release to buy the new release...

But to the musicians who aren't headcases and actually just buy gear because it sounds good and not because it's stuff-other-people-can't-have, this type of marketing does suck. But the good news for those people is that apparently Fortin stuff isn't original, so there's other stuff to buy instead?


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## Thaeon (Jan 3, 2020)

sakeido said:


> that is literally not how amps work but whatever



So more detailed response? Ok. A smaller core on the OT is going to compress sooner and have a narrower frequency range more focused on the mids. Larger cores will be more efficient at transforming power at the low end of the amp. There are different kinds of headroom at work. The power required to drive a speaker that is inefficient in that frequency range and fighting the amp's frequency response as affected by the OT. A small amp with a larger transformer will sound much flatter in response, but that is partly negated by the fact that the inefficient speakers don't have enough power to drive them up to an SPL level in that specific frequency range for an ear that is more sensitive at 3k hz.


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## SlamLiguez (Jan 3, 2020)

cardinal said:


> Fortin gives us what we deserve, in some ways. Most of us should simply be playing used Prestige guitars and either a DSL 50, 5150, or whatever Recto was available on Craigslist if we weren't driven to find something exclusive or unobtainable, whether it's something vintage, a rare circuit version, etc. Fortin and others have figured out marketing to be able to sell new items that still capitalize on what we all really want (exclusive, unobtainable stuff). And in some ways, it's a gift to the buyers (that can afford it) because it props up the prices on the used market (buy a readily available Friedman and its value plummets as soon as you walk out the door with it), but it also it a bit of a circle jerk and somewhat sadistically encourages selling the previous release to buy the new release...
> 
> But to the musicians who aren't headcases and actually just buy gear because it sounds good and not because it's stuff-other-people-can't-have, this type of marketing does suck. But the good news for those people is that apparently Fortin stuff isn't original, so there's other stuff to buy instead?



Should? Deserve? Gift?? What?


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## Elric (Jan 3, 2020)

Hollowway said:


> The reason I’m asking is that we, as modern metal players, want nothing but clean power amp volume. So we don’t need power tube distortion or sag, or any of that. We don’t always need a lot of headroom, in the sense that practicing at home doesn’t require it, recording doesn’t require it, and live it can be mic’ed. So if you could, for instance, give me an amp with the normal preamp, but only one EL34, and yet the same transformer setup as in a 4xEL34 amp, then I could basically have a 25 watt amp with everything else the same.
> I see what you’re saying, though. It’s not going to be much smaller, and won’t be much lighter, and won’t be much cheaper. (And I should just go with a SS power amp!)


If you want pure clean power, there is no point in even f*cking with tubes. If you just want preamp distortion plus clean power get an SS amp. A lot of what you said is the reason metal players were early adopters of amp modeling and also the reason a few greats of metal have played SS amps at various points in their career in spite of having people throwing expensive stuff at them...

Many metal players do not even want the tube amp’s power section to behave like a classic tube amp, they want something tight/stiff.

Preamp distortion is *easy* you can get tube, SS, and modeled preamps that all sound sick. It is good times for metal players, IMHO. People love to chase gear/tones so I think the boutique amp market will always be around but it is hardly necessary if you just want crushing tones and to get on with making music.

IMHO.


----------



## sakeido (Jan 3, 2020)

Thaeon said:


> So more detailed response? Ok. A smaller core on the OT is going to compress sooner and have a narrower frequency range more focused on the mids. Larger cores will be more efficient at transforming power at the low end of the amp. There are different kinds of headroom at work. The power required to drive a speaker that is inefficient in that frequency range and fighting the amp's frequency response as affected by the OT. A small amp with a larger transformer will sound much flatter in response, but that is partly negated by the fact that the inefficient speakers don't have enough power to drive them up to an SPL level in that specific frequency range for an ear that is more sensitive at 3k hz.



...so by this explanation you'd actually want a smaller transformer for lower tunings, because it will filter out all the low end bass and flub that turn your tone into indistinct mud? Clarity comes in the high treble/presence region (~3-5khz) and a lack of junk in the low-mids, both of which are easily reproduced by any amplifier, no matter how small its components are. 

Small amps sound bad in low tunings because they don't tweak the preamp to account for the changes in the power amp. The vast majority of lunchbox designs out there are the same preamp as a full size big boi strapped to a power section that doesn't suit it, and you can tell. Clean sheet amps designed from the ground up to be low wattage tend to sound fantastic (Blackstar 10th Anniversary series, Vox AC30). People also tend to run their lunchbox amps into the same cab they use with their fullsize amp, when a different speaker altogether is a better bet.

It's bizarre how you've zero'd in on one aspect of the amp when you need to consider the whole rig holistically. Maybe people don't do that because the road inevitably leads towards solid state because as @Elric said above, if big clean power is what you want, solid state is where you go. Hell even more than that, you need to get away from thinking of the guitarist in a vacuum, because all the huge, tight low end in those sick guitar tones you've heard is actually the bass guitar... what sounds good in the room by yourself does not sound good in a mix.


----------



## MASS DEFECT (Jan 3, 2020)

Elric said:


> If you want pure clean power, there is no point in even f*cking with tubes. If you just want preamp distortion plus clean power get an SS amp. A lot of what you said is the reason metal players were early adopters of amp modeling and also the reason a few greats of metal have played SS amps at various points in their career in spite of having people throwing expensive stuff at them...
> 
> Many metal players do not even want the tube amp’s power section to behave like a classic tube amp, they want something tight/stiff.
> 
> ...



1000 watt clean SS power sections are teh tits!


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## Hollowway (Jan 3, 2020)

Not much to add in this post, but I just needed to say that some of you guys have a ridiculously deep level of knowledge about how amps work. I really need to learn more about this.


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## wakjob (Jan 3, 2020)

Wizard of Ozz said:


> More like Larry Grohm and Steve Fryette. Larry Grohm called Mike Fortin out (more than once and on more than one online forum) about straight plagiarizing his work. Larry went so far as posting detailed pics on his Facebook, of his amps, component by component, telling Mike he’d make it easy form him to copy and basically in the end Mike’s amps will still sound like @$$. I agree with Larry.
> 
> Fortin is a hack and hype-maker. His amps are almost as bad as his sad half-arsed old Afflicition clothing looking graphics he uses. Sad. I won’t even comment on “his” pedal designs. Rich kids without a clue = Fortin’s best customers.
> 
> For the record, I’ve owned more than one Fortin and they were bad enough for me to not buy anymore.



This kinda saddens me, I like the sound of his production amps like the Diavlo series. Would NEVER buy one solely because they look like they just walked out of a Hot Topic.


----------



## Thaeon (Jan 3, 2020)

sakeido said:


> ...so by this explanation you'd actually want a smaller transformer for lower tunings, because it will filter out all the low end bass and flub that turn your tone into indistinct mud? Clarity comes in the high treble/presence region (~3-5khz) and a lack of junk in the low-mids, both of which are easily reproduced by any amplifier, no matter how small its components are.
> 
> Small amps sound bad in low tunings because they don't tweak the preamp to account for the changes in the power amp. The vast majority of lunchbox designs out there are the same preamp as a full size big boi strapped to a power section that doesn't suit it, and you can tell. Clean sheet amps designed from the ground up to be low wattage tend to sound fantastic (Blackstar 10th Anniversary series, Vox AC30). People also tend to run their lunchbox amps into the same cab they use with their fullsize amp, when a different speaker altogether is a better bet.
> 
> It's bizarre how you've zero'd in on one aspect of the amp when you need to consider the whole rig holistically. Maybe people don't do that because the road inevitably leads towards solid state because as @Elric said above, if big clean power is what you want, solid state is where you go. Hell even more than that, you need to get away from thinking of the guitarist in a vacuum, because all the huge, tight low end in those sick guitar tones you've heard is actually the bass guitar... what sounds good in the room by yourself does not sound good in a mix.



You don't have to tell me about what sounds good in the room by myself is different from what will sound good in a band. I run sound, have a degree in guitar performance, and have played live for over 20 years. You want LESS bass to make room for the actual bass. And to keep it tight, you want less low end BEFORE the preamp generally. Most people add a little back via amp EQ or Graphic in the loop. Its the low end smacking the tone stack that's the problem. If a builder isn't changing the design to suit a different power amp, that's the builder's fault for not considering the whole design. Also not what I was discussing in the least. I was strictly talking about how low end is effected by power, OT, and speaker interplay. I have no problems with solid state amps. Didn't mention tubes in my post once. I'm also not one of those dudes looking for Djent tones. You'd probably be more accurate putting me in the arena of bands like Sleep, High on Fire, Baroness, or Russian Circles. Good job making assumptions though.


----------



## Thaeon (Jan 3, 2020)

wakjob said:


> This kinda saddens me, I like the sound of his production amps like the Diavlo series. Would NEVER buy one solely because they look like they just walked out of a Hot Topic.



All of Mike's stuff is marketed like this. Because sadly, its what sells. There are plenty of guitars that are built for this same aesthetic in my opinion.


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## Thaeon (Jan 3, 2020)

Also, in relation to the current argument:

Why do we look to wattage to be the limiting factor in volume in most cases? Why not design a less efficient speaker across the frequency range? Make the amp work harder to make a quieter level. I've never understood this... The pro audio market is LITTERED with speakers way less efficient than guitar speakers.

Also related... There are those of us like myself who like to control volume and grind with our hands as much as anything else. This is much harder to do on a lower wattage amp that compresses more at practice/gig volume. More watts means more dynamic range. I use a high powered head into a single speaker to control the craziness of the volume. 180 Watt head in its sweet spot during practice with drums and we're under 90db in a concrete room.


----------



## Shask (Jan 3, 2020)

Hollowway said:


> Not much to add in this post, but I just needed to say that some of you guys have a ridiculously deep level of knowledge about how amps work. I really need to learn more about this.


Build something relatively simple, like a JCM800 50W amp, and start changing parts to see what they do. There are only so many things you can do with a classic tube design, so it is not too hard to figure out the main areas to change to get the results you want. Most common mods are only changing the same 5-7 points in a tube circuit.


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## wedge_destroyer (Jan 3, 2020)

Thaeon said:


> Also, in relation to the current argument:
> 
> Why do we look to wattage to be the limiting factor in volume in most cases? Why not design a less efficient speaker across the frequency range? Make the amp work harder to make a quieter level. I've never understood this... The pro audio market is LITTERED with speakers way less efficient than guitar speakers.



As to why we look at wattage perhaps because its an easier point on a spec sheet to look at and "understand" for most people.

In a way, part of the sensitivity is a function of the purpose. PA drivers are designed to minimize distortion, that often means is a heavier cone. So unless you over wind the VC or use an exotic magnet setup or really tight gap in the motor; its going to be difficult to get 101-103 db 1w/1m with that heavy, possibly dampened or kevlar impregnated, PA cone. Unlike guitar drivers with super light paper cones.
Thats not the whole story as voice coil, surround and spider come into play as well, but throwing a heavier cone is a part of it.


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## Thaeon (Jan 3, 2020)

wedge_destroyer said:


> As to why we look at wattage perhaps because its an easier point on a spec sheet to look at and "understand" for most people.
> 
> In a way, part of the sensitivity is a function of the purpose. PA drivers are designed to minimize distortion, that often means is a heavier cone. So unless you over wind the VC or use an exotic magnet setup or really tight gap in the motor; its going to be difficult to get 101-103 db 1w/1m with that heavy, possibly dampened or kevlar impregnated, PA cone. Unlike guitar drivers with super light paper cones.
> Thats not the whole story as voice coil, surround and spider come into play as well, but throwing a heavier cone is a part of it.



I know the differences. I’m just unsure why no one has ever taken the inverse path, rather than putting an attenuator between to absorb some of the energy. Makes more sense to me to work on a speaker that makes 100 or 200 watts quieter.


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## wedge_destroyer (Jan 3, 2020)

Yea, i figured you did but others reading may not.

Its possible to do, but given were talking about guitar, high wattage and low spl, some things come into mind. A light cone, for break up modes that arent sludge. The Vc would have to be a very light wrap, on a very high temp handling former. With a lighter magnet probably with heat sinking.

Its not a difficult driver in theory, but difficulty in testing or percieved lack of market may be why we dont see lower sensitivity guitar drivers.

Oh and on the topic of fortin, meh.


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## Wizard of Ozz (Jan 3, 2020)

Fartin Amps...
We’ll give you GAS...
Great tone... not so much.


Fartin Amps...
What overpriced repackaged, ripped-off design will we pull out of our @$$ next???


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## narad (Jan 3, 2020)

Wizard of Ozz said:


> Fartin Amps...
> We’ll give you GAS...
> Great tone... not so much.
> 
> ...



Now you're just asking for more new forum members to pop up.


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## Hollowway (Jan 3, 2020)

Wizard of Ozz said:


> Fartin Amps...
> We’ll give you GAS...
> Great tone... not so much.
> 
> ...


I always heard these sounded good, but never heard one in person. What do they sound like, tone-wise?


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## wedge_destroyer (Jan 3, 2020)

Hollowway said:


> I always heard these sounded good, but never heard one in person. What do they sound like, tone-wise?



Lots of low end, the highs can be a little squeaky.


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## Wizard of Ozz (Jan 3, 2020)

Hollowway said:


> I always heard these sounded good, but never heard one in person. What do they sound like, tone-wise?




Artificial clanky metallic high-end. The Fartin signature squeal. Choked and synthetic also come to mind. Imagine a butt-kazoo plug in... a bad one.


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## Hollowway (Jan 3, 2020)

Wizard of Ozz said:


> Artificial clanky metallic high-end. The Fartin signature squeal. Choked and synthetic also come to mind. Imagine a butt-kazoo plug in... a bad one.



Well, I know we all have our own tastes, but you REALLY don’t like Fortin!  I’m guessing you have an affiliation with a competitor?


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## Wizard of Ozz (Jan 3, 2020)

Hollowway said:


> Well, I know we all have our own tastes, but you REALLY don’t like Fortin!  I’m guessing you have an affiliation with a competitor?




Why is that? Because I don’t like the sound of an amp... or when a builder straight up lies to customers as to where his amps are built... or who is building it?

Like Fartin did when he had Metro Amps ghost build amps for him? He kinda forgot to mention that detail. 

No I am not affiliated with any music gear company. And I own all sorts of different amp brands. Sorry to disappoint.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 3, 2020)

Wizard of Ozz said:


> Why is that? Because I don’t like the sound of an amp... or when a builder straight up lies to customers as to where his amps are built... or who is building it?
> 
> Like Fartin did when he had Metro Amps ghost build amps for him? He kinda forgot to mention that detail.
> 
> No I am not affiliated with any music gear company. And I own all sorts of different amp brands. Sorry to disappoint.



You need to be affiliated with Mesa so they can re-release a Rev C Rectifier.


----------



## Hollowway (Jan 3, 2020)

Wizard of Ozz said:


> Why is that? Because I don’t like the sound of an amp... or when a builder straight up lies to customers as to where his amps are built... or who is building it?
> 
> Like Fartin did when he had Metro Amps ghost build amps for him? He kinda forgot to mention that detail.
> 
> No I am not affiliated with any music gear company. And I own all sorts of different amp brands. Sorry to disappoint.



Look man, I don’t know what your beef is with Fortin, but you don’t have be to an asshole to me with this “sorry to disappoint.” If you’re looking for mudslinging fight, I’m not really interested. I don’t know jack all about Fortin amps, so I’m asking questions about why you hate them. You could start by giving me a history of what all this stuff is instead of assuming everyone knows whatever the backstory is on it.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 3, 2020)

Hollowway said:


> Look man, I don’t know what your beef is with Fortin, but you don’t have be to an asshole to me with this “sorry to disappoint.” If you’re looking for mudslinging fight, I’m not really interested. I don’t know jack all about Fortin amps, so I’m asking questions about why you hate them. You could start by giving me a history of what all this stuff is instead of assuming everyone knows whatever the backstory is on it.



I mean, you did call him a shill.

Hey, @Wizard of Ozz, you're welcome to share your Fortin [Fartin ] experience, but let's try to give the thread some breathing room. I banned the real shill. 

Chill guys.


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## Hollowway (Jan 3, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I mean, you did call him a shill.
> 
> Hey, @Wizard of Ozz, you're welcome to share your Fortin [Fartin ] experience, but let's try to give the thread some breathing room. I banned the real shill.
> 
> Chill guys.



Yeah, I’m not trying to call him a shill. My bad if I’m the one out of line. Normally all I see is glowing reviews of Fortin stuff, and @Wizard of Ozz you seem on the polar opposite side from that. So, yeah, I want to know your experiences there, as I don’t know the backstory on stolen designs or ghost builders, the actual tone of these things, etc.


----------



## wakjob (Jan 4, 2020)

^
Same.

Trying to figure out what amp designs he ripped off?
Fortin amps don't sound like anything else to my ears.

And I get around with amps like a cheap slut on a Saturday night. I've bedded down with quite a few.

That KillertoneTexas dude is what really got me interested in them for the metal stuff...and Ian Thornley from Big Wreck was using them for a while. An artist/band I really admire.


----------



## Soya (Jan 4, 2020)

Does Fortin sound like Fartin in an Irish accent?


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## sirbuh (Jan 4, 2020)

Looks like I missed the fun..darn it.


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## StevenC (Jan 4, 2020)

Soya said:


> Does Fortin sound like Fartin in an Irish accent?


No


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## Hollowway (Jan 4, 2020)

sirbuh said:


> Looks like I missed the fun..darn it.


You can find fun on TGP and other places if you look, though!  I did a little googling last night to figure out what Wizard was talking about, and I found a thread on The Gear Page that some guys were saying that Fortin ordered some amps from Larry, and then a few years later started his company. There's some people that say his amps are exact copies of Larry's amps. But then some people say that while they're copies, they don't sound anything like Larry's amps. Whatever the case is, there are so many of these Jose modded Marshal clones out there these days it's really hard to know what they all sound like. I personally became aware of these when Fortin did the Meshuggah amp. And then a Ceriatone Gargoyle came about, which may be a clone of the Meshuggah, or may be a completely new design he came up with in talking with a customer, or may be a copy of a design a guy who builds amps (FourT6and2) came up with. TBH I'm totally lost on these, and will probably go back to just wanting a Kraken.


----------



## Soya (Jan 4, 2020)

StevenC said:


> No


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## Vyn (Jan 5, 2020)

Following this with interest - although I still think the best way to get a real amp 'Fortin/Meshuggah' tone on a budget/small-ish package is to buy a used Randall Thrasher/Satan 50 (particularly the Thrasher as it's lesser known than the Satan) and a Two Notes Captor/equivalent as an attenuator.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jan 6, 2020)

I bet it'll be the world's FIRST $2k lunchbox amp! Preorder NOW!


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## Hollowway (Jan 6, 2020)

Vyn said:


> Following this with interest - although I still think the best way to get a real amp 'Fortin/Meshuggah' tone on a budget/small-ish package is to buy a used Randall Thrasher/Satan 50 (particularly the Thrasher as it's lesser known than the Satan) and a Two Notes Captor/equivalent as an attenuator.


I may have to try a Satan. I really wanted one when they came out, but then kind of forgot about them. I think you’re probably right though. It’s basically Fortin designed, but way easier to get. The Thrasher is essentially the same as the Satan?


----------



## Vyn (Jan 6, 2020)

Hollowway said:


> I may have to try a Satan. I really wanted one when they came out, but then kind of forgot about them. I think you’re probably right though. It’s basically Fortin designed, but way easier to get. The Thrasher is essentially the same as the Satan?



Kind of the same control wise, little different. The big difference between the two is that the Thrasher is all 6L6 where as the Satan is a mix of 6L6 and KT88 in the power section. If you swap the tubes and dial it you can get it sounding indistinguishable from the Satan for a fraction of the price.

The Satan sort of spiked in value a little when Ola released his video about no longer being with Randall and the amp is no longer being produced.


----------



## Hollowway (Jan 6, 2020)

Vyn said:


> Kind of the same control wise, little different. The big difference between the two is that the Thrasher is all 6L6 where as the Satan is a mix of 6L6 and KT88 in the power section. If you swap the tubes and dial it you can get it sounding indistinguishable from the Satan for a fraction of the price.
> 
> The Satan sort of spiked in value a little when Ola released his video about no longer being with Randall and the amp is no longer being produced.



Yeah, that’s kind of interesting, as they’re not using EL34s. I guess it just shows that there’s wiggle room to getting that modded Marshall tone. Same with EVH switching to 6L6s when he got his sig amp. It reminds me of a time I was in a music shop when I was like 20 years old or so. I had always been a huge fan of the JCM 800 EL34 sound, but that day I heard a guy plug into a Mark IV combo, and I thought the tone was godly. They sound different, but both of them satisfy the same elements of tone that sounds good to my ears. But compare it to a Rectifier? Then I feel like I’m hearing all that missing mids from the 6L6s, and I really don’t care for it.


----------



## 4Eyes (Jan 6, 2020)

Shask said:


> I think what would be interesting to see is to use a 12AX7 as a power tube. Make like a 0.5W power amp, but then use both triodes with a full feedback circuit for presence/resonance. I am not sure if it would be distorted ass, or be a cool micro poweramp. What they need to do is create a new type of power tube that is structured like a 12AX7 with 2 sides, but smaller than a EL34/6L6. Like take 2 6L6s, shrink them to half size, and stick them in a single tube. Something like that could change the game. EDIT: A single 6L6 can produce 30W in Mono. They should make a "stereo" 6L6 that can produce 15W per side. That would be awesome.



Friend of mine built me an amp like that - full sized features into a small 12ax7 based power amp in push/pull configuration..sounds great, I would say even better than it's bigger sibling for recording - not so much unnecessary sub low end - but still plenty of healthy, guitar bottom - more mix ready if we want to call it that way. It doesn't push that much air, but it's still loud (it was designed as home, recording amp)


----------



## technomancer (Jan 6, 2020)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I bet it'll be the world's FIRST $2k lunchbox amp! Preorder NOW!



Nope, not even close. Suhr PT15 and the Bogner Ecstasy 3534 are already out 

Also if it's 50w does it matter what the form factor is


----------



## protest (Jan 6, 2020)

technomancer said:


> Nope, not even close. Suhr PT15 and the Bogner Ecstasy 3534 are already out



How much was the Ecstacy 25? Wasn't that like $2k, or did they scrap it to release the 3534?

I want a 3534...but I paid $1800 for an actual XTC


----------



## technomancer (Jan 6, 2020)

protest said:


> How much was the Ecstacy 25? Wasn't that like $2k, or did they scrap it to release the 3534?
> 
> I want a 3534...but I paid $1800 for an actual XTC



IIRC the 25 was $1800 or so but it was an import and there were problems with production so Bogner decided to just do the EL34 based 3534 and build it at the normal US production facility. Apparently to confuse matter the 3534 is actually 45 watts (though that may have just been a prototype)


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jan 6, 2020)

technomancer said:


> Apparently to confuse matter the 3534 is actually 45 watts (though that may have just been a prototype)



I wouldn't be surprised if Reinhold got a kick out of that.


----------



## oniduder (Jan 6, 2020)

on the larry vs fortin thread in the sigil thread herre

i remember when i bought the fortin natas and speaking with mike the conversation lead organically to larry's bite and brute or whatever is the similar girth/grind controls, he waffled a bit and said that the controls were different girth and grind being lf and hf specific gain controls, like some sort of multiband distortion in the pre control section of the preamp

idk or care, i can't afford the natas ever again, at first it was 3800 or so, sold it for 5k plus a thrasher of all things,

and for sure can't afford a larry although i've tried, 

as to whether fortin straight ripped larry's idea, most likely, i find the issue being that fortin isn't just honest about it, if he did who cares, personally i don't

some many guitars amps etc are straight rips of other designs or whatever else, ummm yeah that's a fact jack

but saying that he organically came up with it ok no i don't buy it

as for the sigil beyond not really caring, ummm it being a straight forward single channel amp in a format of a smaller head, cool?

i think it's all hype and bullshit for the most part in any sector of the gear market

all of it, 

and people who came up with a circuit or idea and some schmo in canada rips it, they should be flattered

is blackmachine dude going ape over all the ormsby/skervesen/and almost every other guitar maker on the planet making a machine with a reverse headstock that i don't like aesthetically being it's waaay too large for the small thin body of the rest of the guitar

luthiers start straight ripping off others, lepsky ripped an oni, i spoke with dan and he wasn't surprised or anything but "cool" 

sigil will be 3500 dollars plus shipping and have 1 channel and some "new" bs and bkalbalbalalablba


----------



## sakeido (Jan 6, 2020)

Wizard of Ozz said:


> Artificial clanky metallic high-end. The Fartin signature squeal. Choked and synthetic also come to mind. Imagine a butt-kazoo plug in... a bad one.



They used a Fortin on Meshuggah's last album and that was one of the sickest guitar tones in history. Thorendal has probably the greatest metal amp collection ever assembled and he likes his Fortin.

You know a lot of amp trivia but don't seem to look at the big picture. The Fortin Sound, as far as I can tell, is specifically designed for ultra low tuned players trying to make their shit work in a band context. He found a niche and does a decent job servicing it.

An Axe FX does the same job for cheaper but if you can do little to no actual grunt work but sell your amps for $5k anyway... aren't you going to sell amps for $5k? How can a tube amp not made by Engl sound artificial, anyway


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## Thaeon (Jan 6, 2020)

oniduder said:


> on the larry vs fortin thread in the sigil thread herre
> 
> i remember when i bought the fortin natas and speaking with mike the conversation lead organically to larry's bite and brute or whatever is the similar girth/grind controls, he waffled a bit and said that the controls were different girth and grind being lf and hf specific gain controls, like some sort of multiband distortion in the pre control section of the preamp
> 
> ...



Its like I was saying earlier. ALL guitar amps are just a modified radio circuit. That's not a lot you can do all that different other than add shit to it that in reality isn't all that necessary. It would have been a lot cooler of him to say, "I was inspired by what Larry did on his amps, and I changed the design to suit my goals." I can't say that I'm all that excited to own a Fortin. The tone really isn't for me. I like my Herbert a ton. I think my next amp or two won't have as much gain. Like a Hedgehog or maybe an East Duality. Or maybe I'll get a Titan. Who knows. There's so much cool shit out there. We all borrow each other's chops, and try to get each other's tones as guitar players, and hardly anyone bats an eye. I try to differentiate myself as a player by trying to use sounds that are not common to the style of music I play.


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## LeftOurEyes (Jan 6, 2020)

sakeido said:


> Thorendal has probably the greatest metal amp collection ever assembled and he likes his Fortin.



Good guitar tone is subjective, just because he likes it doesn't mean anything really lol. One man's treasure is anothers trash. I hate all the hype bs Fortin does, but if you like his amps then get one, and if you dont then get something else. Who cares really?


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## narad (Jan 6, 2020)

Not sure if this is the best place, but I'm happy to announce that I too have been working on my own line of amps for some time now. Come check us out at NAMM!






#namm2020 #hypeisreal #morethanyoucanaffordpal


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## oniduder (Jan 6, 2020)

Is that a car?


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## sakeido (Jan 6, 2020)

LeftOurEyes said:


> Good guitar tone is subjective, just because he likes it doesn't mean anything really lol. One man's treasure is anothers trash. I hate all the hype bs Fortin does, but if you like his amps then get one, and if you dont then get something else. Who cares really?



Subjective to an extent

You assemble a dream team of players (Meshuggah), studio (Puk), a guy who belongs in the all time metal mixing hall of fame (Tue Madsen), give them a budget that is gigantic by extreme metal standards and all the time in the world to work on it. "It" being the followup to one of the greatest metal albums of the 2010s which was itself the followup to one of the greatest metal albums of the 2000s.

Any of the gear that made it onto that album clearly has some substantial redeeming qualities. Guys who resort to extreme hyperbole, who can't be bothered to use the "amp sound" vernacular people have been building up for decades, aren't adding anything productive to the conversation and just tend to sound a little butthurt. Like, on one hand we have the Violent Sleep of Reason. On the other we have some dude on a forum. ehhhhh


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## Wizard of Ozz (Jan 6, 2020)

sakeido said:


> They used a Fortin on Meshuggah's last album and that was one of the sickest guitar tones in history. Thorendal has probably the greatest metal amp collection ever assembled and he likes his Fortin.
> 
> You know a lot of amp trivia but don't seem to look at the big picture. The Fortin Sound, as far as I can tell, is specifically designed for ultra low tuned players trying to make their shit work in a band context. He found a niche and does a decent job servicing it.
> 
> An Axe FX does the same job for cheaper but if you can do little to no actual grunt work but sell your amps for $5k anyway... aren't you going to sell amps for $5k? How can a tube amp not made by Engl sound artificial, anyway




I think it's you who are not seeing the "big picture". There are a lot more guitar players who are not in to "ultra low tuned" dropped to B-and-beyond modern mid-boosted djenty tones. A whole lot more compared to those who are. 

I'm not a Meshuggah fan and Frederick Thorendhal is not my spiritual tone totem animal. A lot of peeps have impressive amp collections. Some on this very forum. 

Fortin sells (not that they are his original designs, nor even builds nor quality checks them himself) other amps not targeted at the above mentioned group. His Meathead, Bones, and KillerKali amp models. So apparently Fartin is aware that other musical genres exists. And my response was in answer to these sort of styles and amps as well. 

Go play some Fartins in person and get back to us. Gas mask optional.


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## LeftOurEyes (Jan 6, 2020)

sakeido said:


> Subjective to an extent



No like I said subjective. There are lots of other professional guitar players and wonderful producers and engineers that use what they enjoy. You just seem a bit obsessed with Meshuggah calling them a "dream team". That is your personal tone taste and that's fine. I personally do like their tone too, but I also like lots of bands tones as well and I don't obsess over celebrities on the level you do. Defending Fortin simply cause you're a Meshuggah fanboy is just sad, its like Taylor Swifts fans who get mad at anyone who insults her lol.


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## DudeManBrother (Jan 6, 2020)

oniduder said:


> Is that a car?


You poor unsophisticated bastard. That’s the silhouette of a lifestyle my friend. I don’t know about you, but I complied with Narads unique pre-order requirements. I sent my official request to get on the list via carrier pigeon; have accumulated $13k in equal 3rds of steel wheat pennies, $2 bills, and the current equivalent in Wampum. 

I’m awaiting a friend request from Narad Amps on MySpace as that’s where all group excitement/fanboyism is taking place. The man once had a Zune, so you know he’s bringing out some vintage tech to the amp game that’s never been done before. The hype is real!


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## narad (Jan 6, 2020)

DudeManBrother said:


> You poor unsophisticated bastard. That’s the silhouette of a lifestyle my friend. I don’t know about you, but I complied with Narads unique pre-order requirements. I sent my official request to get on the list via carrier pigeon; have accumulated $13k in equal 3rds of steel wheat pennies, $2 bills, and the current equivalent in Wampum.
> 
> I’m awaiting a friend request from Narad Amps on MySpace as that’s where all group excitement/fanboyism is taking place. The man once had a Zune, so you know he’s bringing out some vintage tech to the amp game that’s never been done before. The hype is real!



Thanks, man! We appreciate your support! The response so far has been overwhelming, even beyond our expectations. We still do have some pre-order spots available (payment via money order or bank transfer only).

An extra bonus for those that pre-order: we are including our "tone guide", a 5pg insert showing what are probably award-winning guitarist Plini's favorite settings on our amps!


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## Wizard of Ozz (Jan 6, 2020)

narad said:


> Thanks, man! We appreciate your support! The response so far has been overwhelming, even beyond our expectations. We still do have some pre-order spots available (payment via money order or bank transfer only).
> 
> An extra bonus for those that pre-order: we are including our "tone guide", a 5pg insert showing what are probably award-winning guitarist Plini's favorite settings on our amps!




You are going to need a tag line... for example:

Feel the Grind. Fartin Amplication.

(all Fartin amps are allegedly hand-built in Canada by magical elves... until our customers can prove otherwise and then we go silent)

And a shill... err I mean a hype-man. There was this disreputable bloke that used to post here that may be the right pigeon to carry your message to the masses.


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## DudeManBrother (Jan 6, 2020)

narad said:


> Thanks, man! We appreciate your support! The response so far has been overwhelming, even beyond our expectations. We still do have some pre-order spots available (payment via money order or bank transfer only).
> 
> An extra bonus for those that pre-order: we are including our "tone guide", a 5pg insert showing what are probably award-winning guitarist Plini's favorite settings on our amps!


I’m just truly stoked to get a low serial number! Plus the exclusive sticker: “Designed by the mind of an American physically in Japan, from schematics originally from UK (based on schematics from US) and assembled in China”!


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## narad (Jan 6, 2020)

DudeManBrother said:


> I’m just truly stoked to get a low serial number! Plus the exclusive sticker: “Designed by the mind of an American physically in Japan, from schematics originally from UK (based on schematics from US) and assembled in China”!



We're actually giving negative serial numbers to anyone that pre-orders before NAMM!

(okay, okay, I will now let the thread meander back to the amp. I just think these teasers are dumb AF)


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## Thaeon (Jan 6, 2020)

sakeido said:


> Subjective to an extent
> 
> You assemble a dream team of players (Meshuggah), studio (Puk), a guy who belongs in the all time metal mixing hall of fame (Tue Madsen), give them a budget that is gigantic by extreme metal standards and all the time in the world to work on it. "It" being the followup to one of the greatest metal albums of the 2010s which was itself the followup to one of the greatest metal albums of the 2000s.
> 
> Any of the gear that made it onto that album clearly has some substantial redeeming qualities. Guys who resort to extreme hyperbole, who can't be bothered to use the "amp sound" vernacular people have been building up for decades, aren't adding anything productive to the conversation and just tend to sound a little butthurt. Like, on one hand we have the Violent Sleep of Reason. On the other we have some dude on a forum. ehhhhh



I mean, I like Meshuggah a lot. Great band. I sort of hate their scratchy, super squished guitar tone though. The last Meshuggah album I liked the tone on at all was Nothing. I like Intronaut's guitar tone on Milk Leg a lot better. Fat. Still has some low end to it. I can still hear the bass. And the guitars are tuned to F# on a 25.5" scale. I've seen Sasha play it on a Les Paul live. I'd love to see Meshuggah do what they do with a much fatter sound. Dick's bass tones and Haake's drumming would keep it tight enough.


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## Wizard of Ozz (Jan 6, 2020)

sakeido said:


> between this joke of a post and the "Fartin" shit you keep repeating as it's funny, I'm just getting more and more confused why anybody ever thought you knew what you're talking about. It's always been the typical rigtalk-approved party lines with absolutely nothing in the way of new knowledge anyway.. a quick google search will tell you more than a Wizard post ever will.
> 
> It is inadvertently hilarious that you reference a big picture when all your amp demos are single tracked dad rock, poorly played, with jank close mic positions. You are the quintessential small picture guy. Smallest picture guy, even. Don't worry though, your next obscure or high dollar boutique amp purchase will be the one that finally makes you sound not shit.. keep at it




Cool. Personal attacks. Neato.

Since you can not debate the facts (stacked against you) let's attack the messenger. Sorry Fartin is not the man, hero, idol, innovator, the One you thought he was. I have a day job and music is a hobby for me... and I could care less what you think of the 2 minute amp demos I post. Truly. But whatever gets you thru. Keep waving the Fartin flag. BTW Are those brown stains on it dirt?

I actually have owned and played the amps in question. How about you? Or just more made-up truths and lies?


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## sakeido (Jan 6, 2020)

Thaeon said:


> I mean, I like Meshuggah a lot. Great band. I sort of hate their scratchy, super squished guitar tone though. The last Meshuggah album I liked the tone on at all was Nothing. I like Intronaut's guitar tone on Milk Leg a lot better. Fat. Still has some low end to it. I can still hear the bass. And the guitars are tuned to F# on a 25.5" scale. I've seen Sasha play it on a Les Paul live. I'd love to see Meshuggah do what they do with a much fatter sound. Dick's bass tones and Haake's drumming would keep it tight enough.



Intronaut is cheating because they have one of the best bass players in all of metal helping them out. They sound unreal live. You can barely tell where the guitars end and the bass picks up. The whole thing locks together and becomes so hypnotic. Their tone works for them. They understood how their amps play into the aesthetic of the band. Every member in the band, their guitars (which they make themselves iirc), and all the rest of the gear comes together to create something more than the sum of its parts. Seen those guys four times and would see em again even though I have my doubts about the new drummer. 

Meshuggah with that same sound would work too but they went in a different direction. At times Meshuggah has had some of the worst tones I've ever heard and lately I think they got way better, coincidentally around the time they had their Fortins made. I'm not saying Fortins are the right amp for everybody. They have a context and some of them are so narrowly focused they sound squacky and bad isolated, but that doesn't stop them from being successful at what they were built for.


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## sakeido (Jan 6, 2020)

Wizard of Ozz said:


> Cool. Personal attacks. Neato.
> 
> Since you can not debate the facts (stacked against you) let's attack the messenger. Sorry Fartin is not the man, hero, idol, innovator, the One you thought he was. I have a day job and music is a hobby for me... and I could care less what you think of the 2 minute amp demos I post. Truly. But whatever gets you thru. Keep waving the Fartin flag. BTW Are those brown stains on it dirt?



lmao yeah man I'm really waving the Fortin flag, I'm such a serious fanboy when he released the Catch 33 I bought six... oh, wait, actually, no, I bought a TC Pre replica from Airis. Why would I buy Fortin anything? Whole lotta money to spend on stuff that isn't for me. Doesn't make em bad. 

The SLO-30 though


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## R34CH (Jan 6, 2020)

DudeManBrother said:


> The man once had a Zune, so you know he’s bringing out some vintage tech to the amp game that’s never been done before. The hype is real!



Don't forget the multiplicity of design options offered by @narad Amps. Indubitably, they allow for deeper, more existential realities to be uncovered.


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## Thaeon (Jan 6, 2020)

sakeido said:


> Intronaut is cheating because they have one of the best bass players in all of metal helping them out. They sound unreal live. You can barely tell where the guitars end and the bass picks up. The whole thing locks together and becomes so hypnotic. Their tone works for them. They understood how their amps play into the aesthetic of the band. Every member in the band, their guitars (which they make themselves iirc), and all the rest of the gear comes together to create something more than the sum of its parts. Seen those guys four times and would see em again even though I have my doubts about the new drummer.
> 
> Meshuggah with that same sound would work too but they went in a different direction. At times Meshuggah has had some of the worst tones I've ever heard and lately I think they got way better, coincidentally around the time they had their Fortins made. I'm not saying Fortins are the right amp for everybody. They have a context and some of them are so narrowly focused they sound squacky and bad isolated, but that doesn't stop them from being successful at what they were built for.



I mean, Mike is a capitalist if nothing else. I don't have a problem with him borrowing design ideas from other people and reworking them into what he does. I DO have a problem with him skirting the truth and flat out refusing to comment when called out. Step up and be a man about it. I know Intronaut sounds good. My old band opened for them a couple times. Great guys too. Sasha started Dunable Guitars. He's been building the guitars for years, but the company seems to be picking up a lot of steam lately. I've played on one of Sasha's early guitars. They're well made.


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## Wolfhorsky (Jan 6, 2020)




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## narad (Jan 6, 2020)

R34CH said:


> Don't forget the multiplicity of design options offered by @narad Amps. Indubitably, they allow for deeper, more existential realities to be uncovered.



That falls under the "Narad Concepts" umbrella ;-)


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## Vyn (Jan 6, 2020)

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, that’s kind of interesting, as they’re not using EL34s. I guess it just shows that there’s wiggle room to getting that modded Marshall tone. Same with EVH switching to 6L6s when he got his sig amp. It reminds me of a time I was in a music shop when I was like 20 years old or so. I had always been a huge fan of the JCM 800 EL34 sound, but that day I heard a guy plug into a Mark IV combo, and I thought the tone was godly. They sound different, but both of them satisfy the same elements of tone that sounds good to my ears. But compare it to a Rectifier? Then I feel like I’m hearing all that missing mids from the 6L6s, and I really don’t care for it.



I definitely think some guitarists instead of purchasing a new amp should just purchase a 10-band EQ and experiment with different tubes. Can get some really cool different sounds for not that much more coin as opposed to shelling out $3k+ for a boutique modded marshall/mesa/what-have-you.


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## MASS DEFECT (Jan 6, 2020)

This is just for me. The last great Meshuggah guitar tone was on Nothing. Hell, my fave guitar tone from them was on Contradictions Collapse and that "War" Meshuggah on blast beats song. Apex 'Shuggah tones are Rectos and Line 6.


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## Vyn (Jan 6, 2020)

Actually, while I'm on my soap box - if someone is dead keen on having multiple amps for different sounds get the following:

- 5150/6505/5153 variant
- JCM800 (fuck the vintage versions, just grab a modern one)
- Dual Rec (any, cheaper the better)

All can be found for peanuts unless you are chasing something desirable (block letters, certain rec revs or early JCM's), heck the whole lot could be found in a reasonable used condition for under $2k USD. If you can't get close to your favourite metal record with the combo of the above three and an EQ pedal you're doing something very wrong.


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## efiltsohg (Jan 6, 2020)

just get the JCM and forget about the others


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