# Hand fatigue with classical guitar?



## Hybrid138 (May 9, 2013)

Any tips on preventing/dealing with it?


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## The Reverend (May 9, 2013)

Which hand are we talking about here?


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## Hybrid138 (May 10, 2013)

At the moment, it seems to be more cramping in the left and fatigue in the right. I might be squeezing too tight with the left, but the right hand is where I don't know what I need to do. Tips for both hands would be much appreciated.


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## InfinityCollision (May 10, 2013)

Any way to post pics of your playing positions? Sounds like your wrist angle on your right hand may be poor. The instinctive approach is usually to bend your wrist so that your fingers approach the strings at a near-perpendicular angle, but minimal wrist bend is more ergonomically correct. Overtension on the left hand is likely given the differences in neck size and string tension.


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## Hybrid138 (May 10, 2013)

I'll try to get some pics soon. Also, area #1 is the source of most of my fatigue.


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## Vinchester (May 10, 2013)

From my experience playing in classical position, it's possible that the guitar neck shape is not for you?

As for right hand I have no idea why woudl that happen.


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## Hybrid138 (May 10, 2013)

for the right hand it happens mostly after P I A fast runs.


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## rikomaru (May 14, 2013)

Vinchester said:


> From my experience playing in classical position, it's possible that the guitar neck shape is not for you?


 

as for the right hand......normally the only time i have that issue is if i'm being overly tense with my picking. I've also come across it with people playing at a strong right hand angle, like the knife edge of your hand is too close to the strings so you end up requiring more power for your thumb to even reach the strings. I've never had the balls to push it and try faster playing like that though. Is it possible that this may partly be the case for you?


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## Hybrid138 (May 14, 2013)

Kinda bummed to hear the neck shape thing about the left hand... I love my guitar


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## Given To Fly (May 17, 2013)

How are you supporting the guitar? Footstool? Suction cup - guitar support contraption?  (That what i use.)

You might want to try and adjust your sitting position so that the guitar is as high as possible while still being playable. The best way to try it is to sit on something really low like a kids chair. Your left hand will be able to do things so much easier with the neck at a higher position. You don't have to sit like this forever but its a good way to begin sorting out your left hand.


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## Hybrid138 (May 17, 2013)

I use a footstool at the highest setting and pretty low chair... I need to take a picture.


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## Evil Weasel (May 17, 2013)

Hybrid138 said:


> I'll try to get some pics soon. Also, area #1 is the source of most of my fatigue.


Area 1 are the muscles innervated by the median nerve, which is the nerve compressed during carpal tunnel syndrome. If you start to notice weakness/wasting of the muscles at the base of your thumb or tingling/sensory changes in your pinky it may be worth your while going to see a doctor.


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## Hybrid138 (May 21, 2013)

Scary stuff... Here is a pic of me in position


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## vansinn (May 26, 2013)

Looking at the pics, I see a fairly good playing position.

Mmnn.. it's possible your foot stool is a Bit too high; maybe try half to 1/3rd lower..
Your body isn't straight, but tilted a Bit towards your left side, likely because of the stool.
Also, your office chair looks decently too low, which, alongside with the stool height, easily may create back tensions.
Any back tensions can have widespread repercussions through the cadaver, so pay attention to you ergonomics.

Your right hand isn't relaxed at all. I assume you didn't take lessons, because the first three teachings is
* correct sitting position
* learning to strum strings with a relaxed hand, fingers close and parallel
* learning to play thumb-under with a relaxed hand

I see you're tensioning up your right hand, fingers spread.
You're trying to force strumming control, which will work against your future free hand technique.

I can't really tell what may be causing your left hand issues.
It's possible you should try lowering the action at both ends, i.e. at nut and saddle.

Classical guitars are most often set up with a fairly high action, in order to avoid the slightest not-wanted sounds.
While this is of desired for classical music/playing, it can be a testing time learning to cope with such setups.

I never got over it, and lowered the action at the nut a (decent) tad. Don't overdo this, as later you might need a new nut 
Lowering the saddle isn't problematic, as this is a loose component which can be replaced with ease.


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## Hybrid138 (May 26, 2013)

Thanks for the tips! I went to the doctor and he says I probably just strained my hands because I over practiced for finals. Unfortunately, I do take lessons and my posture has never really been priority. Don't get me wrong, we talked posture a lot my first year of lessons but now it isn't mentioned. Initially, I had absolutely no clue how to hold it and I would do the thumb over the neck thing, which I fixed.

We're always talking about trying to relax the hands but I don't know how. Both hands are tense while I'm playing. Left hand with bar chord shapes and notes that new to be sustained or vibratoed. Right is tense for fast and loud parts.


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## vansinn (May 26, 2013)

I of course cannot know anything about your lessons..

When I started, I had to spend some time just sitting relaxed with the guitar on my left leg, left hand not touching, only supported by right underarm, with right hand hanging loose down over the strings.

After this, I spend a lot of time learning to keep my right hand fingers parallel and close, place one finger on a string, learning to initially dampen the string with the skin, leting the string glide in under the edge of the nail, and glide off, for producing a perfect sound with no stress - as if this wasn't stressful in it's own right, haha 

I then learned to simply raise left arm in the elbow joint, angling it up to the guitar neck, and play scales and simple runs with no strain.

You say you're playing with right hand tension to keep it controlled, where I might say the tension will make your playing less controlled.

Try if you can find some old vids with André Segovia, and see how relaxed he keeps his fingers.
Also look for some flamingo playing, and note how they keep the fingers fully parallel and relaxed, even when playing fast.

Easy enough to write - if I were as good at playing as I babble, I'd be world renowned, hahaha


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## Hybrid138 (May 27, 2013)

Thanks for the tips again! I'm sure it's easier said then done but I definitely need to do something about my technique. I can't afford to get hurt...


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## Alberto7 (May 27, 2013)

vansinn knows what he's talking about. Those were the same things that my classical guitar teacher used to insist on, and what we hated him for . Technique, technique technique; posture, posture, posture. Those things are paramount.

The other thing, of course, is practice. I know how utterly painful bar chords are, ESPECIALLY on a classical. But finger strength also plays a role. I still think that the technique is more important, however, but having strong, practiced fingers does help a good bunch.

Perhaps you should begin playing with a relaxed hand, even if you feel you're not as accurate. You'll eventually develop accuracy while staying relaxed. You might feel like you've just gone back to square one, but it's effective in the long run. It's the same concept I've applied to my picking hand for electric guitar (only as far as staying relaxed goes, though, as both instruments are so different).


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## vansinn (May 27, 2013)

Hybrid138 said:


> I'll try to get some pics soon. Also, area #1 is the source of most of my fatigue.



Area #1, as shown above, is linked to the meridian connected to these areas/organs in our body.
Are you by chance having stomach/digestion problems?

If so, press on the large muscle roughly between thumb and the next finger. You'll likely this fairly painful. but that's ok..
You could also go see someone trained in reflexology, acupressure, or acupuncture.

Not saying this is related to your issues, just that it could be


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## thorekz (May 27, 2013)

It happens the same to me when i have some time not playing guitar...after a while playing (some days) it stops bothering! for me its just practise


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## Hybrid138 (May 27, 2013)

Fortunately, I don't have to stomach pain or degestion troubles


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## Hybrid138 (May 28, 2013)

Guys are there any "relaxing" exercises or videos I should try to do? Just trying to relax my hands isn't as simple I as it should be... My left thumb is starting to bug me a little.


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## Alberto7 (May 29, 2013)

As far as the left hand goes, the only "relaxing" exercise that I do is trying to do some massive and difficult chords and complicated finger positions during my warm up routine, then I rest my hand for a couple of minutes, without letting it get too cold, and whatever I play afterwards is much less painful. A good warm up helps a ton.

I always do this one stretching exercise that my first classical guitar teacher taught me. I put the back of the guitar's neck in between my left hand's fingers, trying to stretch my fingers apart as much as I can, while keeping my fingers perfectly parallel to one another (that is, keep the two fingers that you're stretching on the same plane, without pushing one forward or the other backward. It's just cheating otherwise ). I try to make the back of the neck touch the web of my fingers. Of course, you have to be careful with this and not force it... it's never happened to me, but I can see how it could go wrong, and that must hurt.

I got nothing as far as right-hand exercises go though ... it's not like I'm too experienced anyway. The only thing I focus on for my right hand is to maintain good technique, posture, and play as accurately as I can, even if that means I have to slow down. Then I just slowly build up speed as I practice more and more. I've never actually had problems with my right hand being tense. Or, at least, I don't feel it is tense. However, I haven't had a check done on my classical guitar technique by any 3rd party in a loooong time, so I only have my own view of myself.


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## Given To Fly (May 31, 2013)

Hybrid138 said:


> Guys are there any "relaxing" exercises or videos I should try to do? Just trying to relax my hands isn't as simple I as it should be... My left thumb is starting to bug me a little.



The problem with "trying to relax" is that you usually build up tension instead. Here's how to relax (trust me on the this):
1. Sit in your normal playing position.
2. Put the guitar down.
3. Now drop your arms to the sides. Blood will rush to the very tips of your fingers making your hands feel heavy, like lead is flowing through veins and the weight is pulling your arms to the ground. Relish that feeling because, physically, you are relaxed. There is no tension in any of the muscles that support your arms/hands/fingers.
4. Now pick up your guitar, keep that "heavy" relaxed feeling in mind and pluck the open B string with a solid rest stroke. Now alternate I - M slowly using all that "relaxed weight" you are imagining to move the string.

You can do all of these things. The reason they help is because your arms are physically relaxed when they are your sides. You don't have any say in that, only gravity does! By "relishing" that sensation you are teaching your brain what it feels like to be relaxed which in turn allows you to physically relax and keep tension out. You are using your brain to teach itself.

Its not a typical exercise but it works. I was taught it by a guitarist that was always very relaxed, maybe a little too much so , and visualization is a big part of being able to relax. 

Another one that erases tension while you are practicing is simply "shaking the tension out of your hand." It's pretty self explanatory.


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## Andromalia (Jun 7, 2013)

I had a few strain issues (nerve related but this might serve you too) on my left hand, and the thing that worked was to do lots of scales while paying much attention to release the string as soon as it touched a fret. this got me rid of the "strangle the neck" syndrome I got by starting on cheapo guitars with mile high action. A light touch will help a lot not to tighten your muscles unncecessarily.


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## Hybrid138 (Jun 10, 2013)

Any thoughts on practice with the left thumb not touching the neck at all? My left pinky muscle on the side of my hand has been getting pissed at me too. I think it's the songs I'm working on.

Pinky:
Rondo all Turka has a good deal of pinky work and legato for pinky

Asturias:
The barred stuff kill my left hand so bad


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## Hybrid138 (Jun 19, 2013)

I still have discomfort and pain when playing classical. I was prescribed this by my general practitioner 

Voltaren Gel Information from Drugs.com

I'm scared to use it. I want to find a specialist but I don't know what to look for.


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