# Simple pattern, can't speed speed it up. Help!



## Paincakes (May 11, 2015)

This has been bugging me for YEARS, but I'd really like to break through this "ceiling" I've hit years ago, and take my playing to another level.

I'm trying to build speed and accuracy (what else is new around here?) with a fairly simple pattern I've seen from S2 E1 of Cracking the code here:

High E: --15--12--14--15--14--12--

https://youtu.be/7TnddE2k598?t=542

At 9:20 in the video he brings it up to speed, and THAT's what I've been reaching for for YEARS, without success.

I have been practicing SLOW, with a metronome, but I'm struggling to keep it clean and accurate when speeding things up.

To those who CAN play that fast, how did you really get there?

Just a lot of practice at slow tempos till you could gradually speed it up?
Did it "click" one day after a while of struggling?
Or was it easy from the start?

Cheers!


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## Maniacal (May 11, 2015)

Please can you put a video of you playing that sequence up on YouTube?


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## Lorcan Ward (May 11, 2015)

Are you having trouble in your picking or fretting hand? 

Can you play 12-12-12-12-12-12 repeatedly at speed?

Can you play -15p12h14h15p14p12-- repeatedly at speed?


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## Paincakes (May 11, 2015)

Lorcan Ward said:


> Are you having trouble in your picking or fretting hand?
> 
> Can you play 12-12-12-12-12-12 repeatedly at speed?
> 
> Can you play -15p12h14h15p14p12-- repeatedly at speed?



Good question. I'll work on isolating the problem.



Maniacal said:


> Please can you put a video of you playing that sequence up on YouTube?


Will do.


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## viesczy (May 11, 2015)

Paincakes said:


> This has been bugging me for YEARS, but I'd really like to break through this "ceiling" I've hit years ago, and take my playing to another level.
> 
> I'm trying to build speed and accuracy (what else is new around here?) with a fairly simple pattern I've seen from S2 E1 of Cracking the code here:
> 
> ...



I'm @ work, so I can't get anything from YT but I'll answer the speed question for what worked for me to develop speed.

Just picking speed is developed via any # of picking drills out there. I prefer the 96 fingering variations to really work the finger independence of the 3rd and 4th fingers. 

Now getting a piece of music fast is a matter of KNOWING how you play that (rather than someone else) as when you KNOW your mechanics, it is just a matter of applying that developed picking speed to the mechanics (fingering/location) of the piece you want to play. Typically I get a piece's location/fingering down and then once I'm comfortable with that I drive up the speed add the correct timing. 

I found playing along with pieces of music most helpful, but most of the challenging pieces of music were classical pieces. 

Derek


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## Solodini (May 12, 2015)

How small are your movements when playing it, OP? If you're making excessive movements, that'll be tough to speed up. 

What tempi are you going from and to when you speed up?


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## Paincakes (May 12, 2015)

Solodini said:


> How small are your movements when playing it, OP? If you're making excessive movements, that'll be tough to speed up.
> 
> What tempi are you going from and to when you speed up?



I'll get around to uploading a vid, but in the meantime:

- Movement comes from my wrist, and might be a bit "wide".
- My wrist motion is mostly from up/down.
- I've heard some imply that a slight "rotational" movement instead of "lateral" could be effective, but that does not feel natural to me.

Question:
- How do you practice using "small" movements when it initially feels "unnatural"? Does it eventually feel natural without having to put too much thought into it?
- Should I practice the "rotational" wrist movement until it feels natural?

As far as tempo (these are approximations, I could be off a bit), I can steadily play 3 notes per beat at 132 bpm.
3 notes per beat at 152 bpm becomes inconsistent. Anything above that can be pretty sloppy.


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## redstone (May 12, 2015)

In postural supination, pronosupination (the rotation) as the striking motion is the best way to change strings after the upstroke without effort, it's automatic. Downstroke is diving, upstroke is rising. But you can still do the same with the lateral deviation of the wrist as a striking motion. When the deviation is your striking motion, you're in postural pronation and it's easier to change strings after the downstroke. Downstroke is rising, upstroke is diving. If you still want to rise above the strings after the upstroke, you need to add a 2nd motion : the extension of the wrist. Then by synchronizing the wrist extension and radial deviation, then the wrist flexion and ulnar deviation, you'll be able to rise above the string plane and change/skip strings between each stroke. (like Shawn Lane, who doesn't use the pronosupination)

But you should post that vid because you might actually be wrong about the movements you use so we need to check that. And how's your left hand, can you play the left hand part as fast as you want ?


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## Paincakes (May 13, 2015)

Here's my playing, in full 1080p @ 60fps glory.

Have at it!


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## redstone (May 13, 2015)

So you can't pass the 10nps tremolo picking speed. See how your motion is jerky up and down ? That's either because you flex and extend the wrist every stroke, and your body is limited to 10 flexions per second so you're limited to half speed picking, or you try to control both down and up motions so you put opposed impetus on a certain motion and the result is the same, 10 impetus max per second. 

You're experiencing a combination of motions that only works below 10nps. If you persist that way you'll only get hurt. The only way to get rid of your bad habit is to force you to play at 12nps and faster. Focus on your lateral deviation and try to chain 6 strokes very fast, even if it's not perfect. Let the upstroke be a passive motion, don't try to control it. You should be able to do that at 14-16 nps right now. You can try on the back of your guitar first so that you bypass the apprehension to strike the strings, the most important is to become aware of your natural ability to deviate your wrist way more frequently. Everyone can do it without training. Once unlocked, go back to 10-11nps and work your stamina.


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## Maniacal (May 13, 2015)

Your picking technique has some flaws. Looks like you have quite a bit of pick sticking out as I think I can sometimes hear the pick hit the body?

You need to get rid of that huge dipping motion and if you want to hit very high speeds (14nps+) you should also make a conscious effort to improve pick stroke distance. 

Just did a test.. If I play like you just did, I too struggle to get past about 9-10 notes a second. I went back to my technique and hit 16nps without much warmup. 

It also helps to accent the first note of every 6 when you play sequences like that. The accent doesn't need to be big, just obvious enough for you to know where the first note is. This is extremely useful when you hit the "fast" tempos. 

Work on being able to switch between lots of accent groupings.... also good for general pick hand control
four note accent
> o o o > o o o 

six
> o o o o o > o o o o o

eight
> o o o o o o o > o o o o o o o 

ten
> o o o o o o o o o > o o o o o o o o o 

you get the idea


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## redstone (May 13, 2015)

It's not the distance but the frequency. His amplitudes are fine, he dips too frequently with the same motion (flexion). The fact that he can reach 10nps actually proves that he can reach the max flexion/extension frequency so the amplitude is not the problem. In his current situation, trying to add accents would only stimulate his bad habbit. He needs to isolate the deviation from the flexion first, then to add the flexion only on the downstroke. Here's what he does vs what he should do :



In case it's not clear, my deviation amplitude is the same in both examples, the motion seems more ample because of the added flexion/extension but neither the deviation or flexion/extension are too ample for the job, it's just the F/E that is two times too frequent. The second example has no F/E at all so it looks much focused but it's only a visual trick.


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## Solodini (May 13, 2015)

Paincakes said:


> I'll get around to uploading a vid, but in the meantime:
> 
> - Movement comes from my wrist, and might be a bit "wide".
> - My wrist motion is mostly from up/down.
> ...


 
Are you trying to jump from 132bpm straight to 152 (I've not watched your video: I'm at work)? You should be steadily increasing tempo by small incremembts as you become comfortable at each stage: from 132, get used to 137. From there, 142. If that's leading to mistakes, spend more time on the previous tempo.

For small movements, play as slowly as you need to to have full control over all motions, even if that's 0.5nps. Keep on it consistently so it becomes engrained in your muscle memory as the most efficient way to progress. Make steady increases in speed as you improve. Small increases, when you're consistently relaxed and perfect at the previous speed. Make sure you stay relaxed and aren't tensing up.

It's certainly worth giving rotational movement enough of a chance to grow on you, before discarding it altogether. Lateral picking would have felt a bit unnatural at first, I'm sure.


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## Paincakes (May 13, 2015)

Thank you all so much for taking the time to watch the vid and post advice on improving my technique!



redstone said:


> Focus on your lateral deviation and try to chain 6 strokes very fast, even if it's not perfect. Let the upstroke be a passive motion, don't try to control it.


Can you please clarify lateral deviation? Thanks!



Maniacal said:


> Your picking technique has some flaws. Looks like you have quite a bit of pick sticking out as I think I can sometimes hear the pick hit the body?


My pick might be sticking out some, but it isn't hitting the body (I'll have to check on that to be sure lol). Pretty sure it's the sound of the strings and/or metronome click (my amp is turned fairly low, and far away from the camera). I'll work on that.
As for the accents, I keep track of them (or try to) to stay locked-in with the metronome. I'll try some of your drills, thanks for your tips!



redstone said:


> He needs to isolate the deviation from the flexion first, then to add the flexion only on the downstroke. Here's what he does vs what he should do :
> 
> 
> In case it's not clear, my deviation amplitude is the same in both examples, the motion seems more ample because of the added flexion/extension but neither the deviation or flexion/extension are too ample for the job, it's just the F/E that is two times too frequent. The second example has no F/E at all so it looks much focused but it's only a visual trick.



Thank you so much for that! Can you please clarify "isolate the deviation from the flexion"? Thanks!
From what I can see, in the "wrong way" the wrist is moving up/down, and in the "right way" it seems to be "rotating". Is this correct?
Can you please look at my video cover of Metallica's Damage Inc, and tell me about the movements I am using here? I definitely feel like I use different techniques when playing fast rhythm guitar vs fast lead guitar.




Solodini said:


> Are you trying to jump from 132bpm straight to 152 (I've not watched your video: I'm at work)? You should be steadily increasing tempo by small incremembts as you become comfortable at each stage: from 132, get used to 137. From there, 142. If that's leading to mistakes, spend more time on the previous tempo.
> 
> For small movements, play as slowly as you need to to have full control over all motions, even if that's 0.5nps. Keep on it consistently so it becomes engrained in your muscle memory as the most efficient way to progress. Make steady increases in speed as you improve. Small increases, when you're consistently relaxed and perfect at the previous speed. Make sure you stay relaxed and aren't tensing up.
> 
> It's certainly worth giving rotational movement enough of a chance to grow on you, before discarding it altogether. Lateral picking would have felt a bit unnatural at first, I'm sure.


I bump up the tempo in small increments when practicing. I just bumped it up past my "comfort zone" in the video to demonstrate where my mechanics "break down".
Thanks for the advice, I'll work on building the "muscle memory".


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## SKoG (May 13, 2015)

The style change in lead vs rhythm is interesting. My first thoughts are about how you angle the edge of the pick. On your "lead" video it looks pretty flat, on the "rhythm" Damage Inc video, you go to a decent amount of back-edge picking, especially on the solo section (2:30) and you seem to move through the string a lot easier. 

Experiment with a greater angle of edge picking on your lead playing. Try front and back, it seems you naturally go to back edge in your rhythm playing when playing faster, but most people find more success using the front edge of the pick. 

Watching your lead mechanics video reminds me of Troy Grady's study on Eric Johnson's playing. When playing slow to mid tempo, Eric has a lot of "bounce" or extra movement to his picking. This is not necessarily the size of the movement being the problem (agreeing with redstone's post), but simply a natural extraneous motion that Eric cuts down when he goes into fast runs. 

Watch this video in a big screen to get a good look, it has some great shots of his picking hand and Troy points to it a lot in his videos. In the early intro, Eric's slower playing has a lot of "bounce" between picking the strings. As he goes into speed mode for the first time around 1:20, you can see his movements become much more direct. This isn't as much about picking distance as it is the directness and playing through the string instead of bouncing around.


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## redstone (May 13, 2015)

Paincakes said:


> Can you please clarify lateral deviation? Thanks!














Paincakes said:


> Thank you so much for that! Can you please clarify "isolate the deviation from the flexion"? Thanks!




1] Here's what you do in your first video (my first example) :

Downstroke------------> Upstroke-------------->
Ulnar deviation--------> Radial deviation ------> (main striking motion)
Flexion -> extension -> Flexion -> extension -> (additionnal skipping motion)

2] Here's what you do in your second video

Downstroke--------------> Upstroke--------------->
Extension----------------> Flexion-----------------> (main striking motion)
-non systematic deviation and pronosupination--- (additionnal skipping motions)

3] And here's what I do in my second example

Downstroke------------> Upstroke-------------->
Ulnar deviation--------> Radial deviation ------> (isolated motion)


Judging by your second video, you're used to play fast by striking the strings with your wrist flexion/extension. When you do that, your palm points towards the neck (postural supination). 

Now when you "solo", as in your first video, your palm points towards the body (postural pronation). With this new posture, the wrist deviation becomes your striking motion.
But you're so used to play the other way that your flexion/extension kicks in unconsciously, and you flex the wrist every time you strike the string (like a downpicking technique, with the same speed limitation). This is why you're slow in the first video and it happens because you let it happen.. by playing too slow. 

So you have two simple options

1- you keep playing in postural supination, using your riffing technique for leads as well.
2 - you learn to isolate the deviation in postural pronation to deviate faster. (start directly at 12+nps)




Paincakes said:


> From what I can see, in the "wrong way" the wrist is moving up/down, and in the "right way" it seems to be "rotating". Is this correct?



No. The perfect alt picking technique is a mix of two motions with different possibilities for a same result. Pronosupination (what you call rotation) is optional.


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## Paincakes (May 13, 2015)

redstone said:


> So you have two simple options
> 
> 1- you keep playing in postural supination, using your riffing technique for leads as well.
> 2 - you learn to isolate the deviation in postural pronation to deviate faster. (start directly at 12+nps)



Thank you so much for posting that picture! Your descriptions of the different scenarios are very helpful. 
I'll explore those options and report back.

Thanks again!

Edit:
Seems like I can totally pick pretty fast / on time if I pay attention to not over extend my wrist movements. 
Now my next challenge, is getting the LEFT hand to keep up!

Edit 2: ugh... feels like I'm stuck in the same ole rut...


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## Solodini (May 14, 2015)

Just take it steady and don't rush it. Give the fretting hand time to catch up, then time to become synchronised with the picking hand.


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## Paincakes (May 15, 2015)

So, a bit of a breakthrough: I'm drastically changing how I hold my pick.
My "old" way, for 20+ years (!), my thumb was bent back.
Right now, I'm trying to bend my thumb slightly forward.

Like so (skip to 60 seconds):


I immediately noticed that this brings the pick slightly closer to wrist, the pivot axis, meaning that movements can be a lot smaller.
This is taking a while to feel natural, but it seems that picking fast leads is a LOT easier, with much less effort. The downside, is my rhythm guitar chugga-chugga game feels completely awkward lol.

I'll keep at it, thanks again everyone for your tips / advice!


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## redstone (May 15, 2015)

It's the opposite, closer to the pivot = wider movements. Yet more strength. And less postural supination. The clockwise angle asks for less grip strength but it can hinder your technique depending on what motions you use, how, and your hand width/length ratio. Your riffing technique will surely benefit from it because your postural supination was excessive.. your flexions fight too much against gravity.


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## Solodini (May 15, 2015)

I think he means that having the pick closer to the pivot means that when pivoting the same angle, the pick moves a shorter distance, smaller circumference of movement.


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## Arkeion (May 23, 2015)

Paincakes said:


> So, a bit of a breakthrough: I'm drastically changing how I hold my pick.
> My "old" way, for 20+ years (!), my thumb was bent back.
> Right now, I'm trying to bend my thumb slightly forward.
> 
> ...




Edit: 
He answered my question in the video.

Nevermind!


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## MrPepperoniNipples (May 23, 2015)

Well here's my 2 cents

You're struggling to keep it up to speed in your video. Take the metronome down until the lick is easy as fvck and you can play it in your sleep. Increase it from there.

Do NOT increase the speed until you are 100% comfortable and relaxed at your current speed. This will prevent you from becoming as rigid as you are in the video you posted, and you'll stop lagging behind when you increase speed. 

This way, you will just have to push your self a tiny bit more than what you are already comfortable doing, and the lick really won't get harder and harder as you increase speed, because it's just the same incraese in speed every time, relative to what you are already comfortable with.

Also, not to say anyone else's advice isn't important, but there really is no need to over analyze this. It's a simple lick that can be very easy if you take it slowly. There is no need to measure the angle at which your pick attacks the string or the degree rotation of your wrist while doing so.

I would, however, recommend some picking exercises. The issue is with a lack of control over the right hand, so definitely look into the 1 note exercises someone already posted here.

Gorgeous guitar btw, was debating whether or not to get the same one, ended liking the 1550 neck better, though.


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## Paincakes (May 23, 2015)

Update:

I've been practicing this bit for 10-30 minutes a day (on and off).
I'm getting used to the holding the pick differently.
Edit: This part pf Cracking the Code &#8212; Season 1, Episode 8 describes exactly what I'm going through lol https://youtu.be/0rjC-ph9WYA?t=585

Pros: This makes picking faster so MUCH easier to me. 
Con: The picking "tone" sounds very different to me. It's a bit "squeaky". Paul Gilbert mentioned in a video that he intentionally plays for that sound, but I'm not sure if I'm into that. I'll experiment with different angles of attack and see where that goes.

Getting the left hand in sync was a big challenge, but something "clicked" today. I was finally able to blaze past the 160 bpm hurdle, and can now (sloppily) reach 200 bpm (3 notes per beat).

To do:
- Find a picking attack angle that doesn't squeak.
- Clean up the technique at faster speeds.
- Get used to using the pinky instead of the ring finger.

Any advice on the above would be appreciated! Thanks everyone for your contributions! All of the info was extremely helpful.


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## redstone (May 23, 2015)

Don't overangle the pick, just enough to lock it between your fingers and fit your hand position. Try applying more pressure on the strings, if you're too gentle it won't sound great. In the end, the energy you gain from that angle must still be spent if you want a rounder, fuller attack. And of course try different picks, might help.


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## HoneyNut (May 24, 2015)

MrPepperoniNipples said:


> Gorgeous guitar btw, was debating whether or not to get the same one....



Nice guitar! I am sure you are inspired to play better every time you pick up that guitar. 

Thanks for starting this thread. Lots of fantastic advises here! These will help me too... That lick is a difficult one to master. I've been trying that with linear diatonic runs on a singe string. Really works out my pinky!


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## Paincakes (May 25, 2015)

Thanks for the compliments on the guitar by the way!

OK, now that I seem to be holding the pick "right", I'm interested in adopting the hand motion described here:

Cracking the Code with Troy Grady: Yngwie Malmsteen's Rotational Picking Mechanic | Guitar World

"_Here's how to do it: From an anchor position, with the right side of the palm resting on the bridge, simply rotate the hand downward so that the pick assumes the classic downward slant. This hand position should feel completely natural, similar to what happens when you hook your thumb into your belt loop. There should be no tension anywhere in the hand or arm because no real effort is required to make this happen. *You're simply resting the hand against the body of the guitar and allowing gravity to do its work*._"

I feel that I'm not positioning my hand correctly (perhaps because I place my hand so that the pick lands between the middle and neck pickup, while it seems Yngwie's pick lands over the middle pickup).

When I try to force the "rotation", my hand is no longer resting on anything: I lose the anchor, and I can't get the motion to feel stable or fast.

Any tips?


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## redstone (May 25, 2015)

You probably need more postural supination.

Another "what you might do vs what you have to" 



Eventually flex the wrist a bit and abduct the thumb if you don't. Also, don't extend the wrist during the downstroke until you get the pronation right. You must picture in your head that your downstroke dives at 30-40° and align your thumb to that direction.


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## Paincakes (May 25, 2015)

redstone said:


> You probably need more postural supination.
> 
> Another "what you might do vs what you have to" http://youtu.be/_NeB4BA2SHE



Looks like the video is set to private.


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## redstone (May 26, 2015)

Fixed.


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## Paincakes (May 26, 2015)

redstone said:


> Fixed.



Thanks for that!

OK here is a video of what I'm doing.



First I play "comfortably" with whatever motion feels right (i can't tell what I'm actually doing hah!)
Then at 0:25 I start adjusting to perform what I think is the "rotational" forearm motion described by Troy Grady.
The later feels uncomfortable. Not sure if I need to adjust, or get used to it, or stick with what I'm doing.


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## redstone (May 26, 2015)

Ok, for now it's a big mess of wrist motions with only a little bit of pronosupination but it's normal considering you've been a wrist picker for a long time. At 28s your briefly came closer by flexing your wrist and adding more postural supination, but as soon as you added the left hand, you returned in wrist mode. Also, your downpicking is 100% wrist and 0% pronosupination.

The motion you're looking for, pronosupination, is the rotation of the forearm. You must relax, slow down and focus on rotating your forearm without moving anything else. Your wrist must not move, and you shouldn't flex or extend the forearm, only rotating it.


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## Konfyouzd (May 26, 2015)

Metronome


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## Paincakes (May 26, 2015)

redstone said:


> Ok, for now it's a big mess of wrist motions with only a little bit of pronosupination but it's normal considering you've been a wrist picker for a long time. At 28s your briefly came closer by flexing your wrist and adding more postural supination, but as soon as you added the left hand, you returned in wrist mode. Also, your downpicking is 100% wrist and 0% pronosupination.
> 
> The motion you're looking for, pronosupination, is the rotation of the forearm. You must relax, slow down and focus on rotating your forearm without moving anything else. Your wrist must not move, and you shouldn't flex or extend the forearm, only rotating it.



Thanks. I'll work on that. Is the movement supposed to feel a bit un-natural since I am not used to it, or should it click right away if I am doing it right? Also, I feel that my "comfortable" way, I might be using the elbow. My forearm isn't tense, but I "sense" that it feels locked somehow. Is that in my head?



Konfyouzd said:


> Metronome


Oh definitely. It isn't heard on camera since I'm using a pod as audio source. I know I'm not dead-on due to consciously trying to change the wrist motion.
I'll add, that I am purposely playing at a "faster than clean-playing" speed because I've noticed that some of the faster-picked movements simply don't "happen" when practiced slowly. Momentum comes into the picture, and some muscle groups kick-in that would not when practicing at a slower speed.


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## redstone (May 26, 2015)

Paincakes said:


> Is the movement supposed to feel a bit un-natural since I am not used to it, or should it click right away if I am doing it right? Also, I feel that my "comfortable" way, I might be using the elbow. My forearm isn't tense, but I "sense" that it feels locked somehow. Is that in my head?



The context and string contact will probably feel un-natural even if you do it right at first. But you already did that move countless times in your life. It's the slap motion, but holding a pick. A last one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNd75ozNe3g




Paincakes said:


> I'll add, that I am purposely playing at a "faster than clean-playing" speed because I've noticed that some of the faster-picked movements simply don't "happen" when practiced slowly.



That's mostly true, however you should try to get the slapping motion as slow as in the last vid before speeding up.


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