# Anyone know about the crown chakra??



## angelophile (Jun 29, 2012)

I'm not actually a neuroscientist (surprised?) but have heard about the pineal gland. Some relate it to the "crown chakra" (that fascinating decoration the hindus wear on their forehead). New age folks also talk about the 3rd eye.

I'd like to come at this from a subjective approach, but if people have scientific biological knowledge I'd also like to hear it.

Quite an inspiring idea that we can awaken aspects of consciousness we were not prevously aware of. I have had some states of mind where I was aware of a focal point on that location.

Does anyone here meditate? or visited buddhist retreats?

could they describe some of the experiences they gained?


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## Guitarman700 (Jun 29, 2012)

I can only quote Chopra on this:
"Interdependence is only possible in your own possibilities, Evolution is beyond descriptions of potentiality"


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## TheSilentWater (Jun 29, 2012)

all I can say is this:


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## Jakke (Jun 29, 2012)

There is thus far no evidence of chakras or energy-paths inside our bodies in any new-age sense, thus strictly speaking from an evidence-based point of view, they do not exist. New age people also talk about raw milk, the power of dolphins, homeopathy and not vaccinating children, but these are still terrible ideas.
If you want to come at this from a subjective point of view, what is there to talk about? If you are subjective in you way of thinking you've already made up your mind. 

The pineal gland regulates our sleeping rythm, there is hardly anything mystical or esotherical about that, it secretes melatonin when we sleep and that's it.
There is melatonin in milk and bananas as well, does that make a snack the way to cosmic wisdom?


There are also no real evidence of meditation being even benficial (or spiritually awakening in any way) for a person. We here in the west has an unfortunate love-affair with everything east asian going back since The Beatles got scammed by that guru. We need to revise our thinking here I believe and stop buying into everything that comes out of that region.

Sincerely

Sourpuss skeptic.


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## angelophile (Jun 29, 2012)

I really can't agree with sourpuss skeptic on this !!

The holistic awareness of a person transcends any scientific mechanistic view of the organism.

If a religious person finds an amazing view of the world, then OBVIOUSLY that view EXISTS !

Why would any scientist want to take that away from them ??

I have had many wonderful epiphanies and states of bliss.

Most of those who reach these states find words and descriptions inadequate.

Anyone who has the slightest imagination is usually aspirational about personal growth, intuition is indispensable in this regard.

I'm not talking about O.D.ing on steroids and protein shakes, whilst staring at their DNA through a microscope.

but broadening the mind and learning to see beauty in the cosmos and the interconnectedness of all life!

science may one day prove that there is no such thing as life !

and all scientists will suddenly die. 

the rest of us will probably be ok.

The chopra quote was great.


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## Necris (Jun 29, 2012)

Blind acceptance of subjective experiences as fact is no way to go about researching objective realities. Personal experiences are necessarily first person and as such are not valid in any way as evidence. If 500 people tell you their personal experiences in meditation and how they "felt something different" around the area of their "third eye" that doesn't make what they tell you any more plausible.



angelophile said:


> I really can't agree with sourpuss skeptic on this !!
> 
> The holistic awareness of a person transcends any scientific mechanistic view of the organism.
> 
> ...


Believing things that are completely unsupported by evidence is completely irrational and detrimental to a persons ability to discern fantasy from reality.


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## angelophile (Jun 29, 2012)




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## angelophile (Jun 29, 2012)

Greetings fellow braincells ?!?

I don't believe your retina !!

is that completely irrational enough for you??


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## Adam Of Angels (Jun 29, 2012)

Jakke said:


> There are also no real evidence of meditation being even benficial (or spiritually awakening in any way) for a person.



There is actually a lot of evidence that shows meditation to be beneficial to a person - I was just reading about it today, actually. I read far more interesting articles/research than this today, but: Brain waves and meditation


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## highlordmugfug (Jun 29, 2012)




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## Jakke (Jun 29, 2012)

angelophile said:


> If a religious person finds an amazing view of the world, then OBVIOUSLY that view EXISTS !



Really? So all gods that has ever been talked about exists? You know, people have talked about religious experiences ever since we had a language to use. 

The funny thing about spiritual claims that makes statements about the physical world is that they can be disproven. 
We know that Zeus does not live ontop of Mt Olympus, we know that the earth was not flooded or that the earth is flat, yet these are part of religious experiences that you claim OBVIOUSLY exists because people experienced them.



angelophile said:


> Why would any scientist want to take that away from them ??



Why would people want to believe in irrational and unsupported claims?



angelophile said:


> I have had many wonderful epiphanies and states of bliss.



So have I, but I on the other hand knows my brain-chemistry.




angelophile said:


> Anyone who has the slightest imagination is usually aspirational about personal growth, intuition is indispensable in this regard.



I am a musician, I have plenty of imagination. Intuition is bullshit when it comes to this, because intuition is not impartial, it's subjective from person to person. If someone holds up a card, my intuition says that it is red, while your says black, which intuition is correct?




angelophile said:


> but broadening the mind and learning to see beauty in the cosmos and the interconnectedness of all life!



Who says I don't? Every time I look out in the universe I see incredible beauty, I just don't have to add pixies to it.



angelophile said:


> science may one day prove that there is no such thing as life !
> 
> and all scientists will suddenly die.



No.


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## angelophile (Jun 29, 2012)

The vast array of religious myths can bring profound understanding of the psychology of humanity!

where do you think the name "psyche" came from?

or "epiphany"


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## angelophile (Jun 29, 2012)

Hiesenbergs uncertainty principle !

for real!


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## angelophile (Jun 29, 2012)

do you have no memes ??


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## highlordmugfug (Jun 29, 2012)

angelophile said:


> The vast array of religious myths can bring profound understanding of the psychology of humanity!
> 
> where do you think the name "psyche" came from?
> 
> or "epiphany"


What does the etymology of those terms have to do with an argument about the objective reality of religious/meditative experiences?


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## angelophile (Jun 29, 2012)

Psyche was a greek god, so was epiphany


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## highlordmugfug (Jun 29, 2012)

And they're both fictional characters. My question stands.

EDIT: And they were both actually goddesses.


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## Jakke (Jun 29, 2012)

angelophile said:


> Hiesenbergs uncertainty principle !
> 
> for real!



Yes, the speed and location of a particle cannot be known simultaneously for any given time. Relevance?


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## angelophile (Jun 29, 2012)

you may discover that pretty much all language has irrational origins, so why do you think you bothered to learn it in the first place ?


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## angelophile (Jun 29, 2012)

Why try to see what your brain is instead of using it?


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## highlordmugfug (Jun 29, 2012)

Because history is interesting and relevant, even if it's just the wacky and misguided religious beliefs of long gone societies?

Just because something is interesting doesn't mean that it's true. Just because someone has thought of something, doesn't mean that it's so.



I'm not sure that even you know exactly what point you're trying to make.


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## angelophile (Jun 29, 2012)

is someone going to try to prove whether beauty is real or not ??


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## Jakke (Jun 29, 2012)

And you still have not answered the relevance of the uncertainty principle. I have a sneaking suspicion you are just engaging in the Gish gallop at this point.


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## Guitarman700 (Jun 29, 2012)

angelophile said:


> is someone going to try to prove whether beauty is real or not ??


"The beauty of the cosmos is inside universal sexual energy"-Deepak Chopra


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## Jakke (Jun 29, 2012)

angelophile said:


> is someone going to try to prove whether beauty is real or not ??



Beauty is real to the extent that we know that there are neurological paths that govern what we see as beautiful, it's very subjective though.

Gish gallop again?


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## angelophile (Jun 29, 2012)

OK


there are different types of truth.

subjectivism is part of the human condition, so why not try to enjoy it?

If you think through many of these issues you will find that both the root of reality and the flowering of spirituality are part of the same reality.

this is not always apparent but it is hypocracy to deny either.

we can find purpose in the subjective and means in the real.


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## Jakke (Jun 29, 2012)

No, there is such a thing as absolute truth, don't try to post-modern me!


Either chakras exist, or they don't, the evidence points to the latter.


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## Guitarman700 (Jun 29, 2012)

angelophile said:


> OK
> 
> 
> there are different types of truth.
> ...



Exactly, as Chopra said, "Awareness embraces the potential photonic sensations of mythical spirituality."


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## angelophile (Jun 29, 2012)

if someone works with faith in chakras or the many forms of yoga and tantra, after a while they will be part of their organic makeup and they may be much healthier than a primitive scientist.


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## highlordmugfug (Jun 29, 2012)

OP:






Me:


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## Jakke (Jun 29, 2012)

angelophile said:


> if someone works with faith in chakras or the many forms of yoga and tantra, after a while they will be part of their organic makeup and they may be much healthier than a primitive scientist.



Ah, going for anecdotes are we? You know there are people who smoke and drink in excess, yet they live to be 103. Does that mean that smoking and heavy drinking is good for you?


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## angelophile (Jun 29, 2012)

fond of Taoism and Zen, wondering when I will feel no need to tell the truth!


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## Jakke (Jun 29, 2012)

Well, if you feel the need to lie sneak up on you, it's hardly my problem, is it?


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## angelophile (Jun 29, 2012)

if you have no problems from lies why are you arguing with me?

no this, no that...?


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## angelophile (Jun 29, 2012)

What is the purpose of honour?


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## angelophile (Jun 29, 2012)

I thought "hardly" was your problem ?


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## Jakke (Jun 29, 2012)

angelophile said:


> if you have no problems from lies why are you arguing with me?
> 
> no this, no that...?



No. 
It's not my problem if you would decide to start lying* 
Please don't misquote me.




angelophile said:


> What is the purpose of honour?



Honour is a measurment as to how likely an individual is to uphold his part of the social contracts we have in a society or uphold his obligations to other people.


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## angelophile (Jun 29, 2012)

I and I chopra says

Interdependence is only possible in your own possibilities, Evolution is beyond descriptions of potentiality"

so belief in GOD is honourable then?


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## Jakke (Jun 29, 2012)

I frankly don't give a shit as to what Chopra says, his word carries no weight with me, and if he said the sky was blue I'd expect a green one as soon as I step out of the door.


I am not sure a belief can be honourable, a person's honour can lead to beliefs, but beliefs in themselves... I don't think so, that would imply a conciousness within a belief, which is riddiculous.


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## angelophile (Jun 29, 2012)

Ok now you're being irrational and its not my problem 

have fun out there


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## Jakke (Jun 29, 2012)

How did I, if I may ask?


*EDIT*
Ah, so now you are also editing the post I have already responded to? May I take that as well as your evasiveness as that you actually have no case to present? You spew nonsense until someone calls you on it, and then you change the subject.


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## angelophile (Jun 29, 2012)

expecting green skies is irrational rhetoric, not to say I agree though, I got your point.

we have whole construct identities we care about enough to have these debates on. 

I suppose why we participate is open to question?

consciousness within belief is natural and supernatural

3am here !

I'll rejoin tomorrow

peace


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## angelophile (Jun 29, 2012)

sorry not good etiquette, though I was expanding my post


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## angelophile (Jun 29, 2012)

obviously late at night here.

I'll keep the threads clear for others

will continue tomorrow


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## Jakke (Jun 29, 2012)

Irrational how? It was ranting, but that does not make it:
1. Less valid
2. Irrational

It was not an argument per se, it was a way to retorically show my utter dislike for Deepak Chopra (and the fractal wrongness that he creates on a regular basis).

I participate because I actually care about what is true or not. Truth is not subjective in most of the cases, it is not hard to demonstrate.
See, I don't deal with the supernatural. the supernatural that has been objectively proven is called nature, and I do believe in nature due to the overwhelming evidence of nature existing.


*EDIT* You still have not explained what Heisenberg has to do with your position. You would not want me to think you dishonestly dodge uncomfortable questions, do you?


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## angelophile (Jun 30, 2012)

OK I'm in a good mood today, no wish to fight anyone!

A human being can be seen as a thing (particle) or a wave, (spirit)

difficult to see both simultaneously though.

I don't disagree with your sense of objective truth, I would hope to draw your attention to other valid dimensions of humanity.

I'm frustrated by your beligerence.

I am understandably concerned that you have no value for dreams or allow yourself and others to subjectively enjoy artistic or spiritual endevours?

Maybe if you are so confident in your sense of truth (lets face it science is hardly going to disappear) you could try safely exploring other aspects of life?


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## Jakke (Jun 30, 2012)

angelophile said:


> A human being can be seen as a thing (particle) or a wave, (spirit)
> 
> difficult to see both simultaneously though.



I would have to disagree, we have mechanical properties of a particle, not a wave. The spirit is an unproven assertion, so I cannot see where you have gotten its mechanical properties from. The recent experiments with people with brain damage suggests that a "spirit" is simply fiction.

The Heisenberg principle only applies to the quantum level, not the macro level we are a part of. With a GPS I can know both the speed and location of a car without any problems.




angelophile said:


> I am understandably concerned that you have no value for dreams or allow yourself and others to subjectively enjoy artistic or spiritual endevours?




And you infer that from my rejection of woo?
I have no ambition to prohibit people from believing what they want, but when we move into the area of objective proof there can be such things as fallacious beliefs. 
Again, I am a hobby-musician, I engage in artistic endeavours every day, I also reject your coupling of the artistic with the spiritual.



angelophile said:


> Maybe if you are so confident in your sense of truth (lets face it science is hardly going to disappear) you could try safely exploring other aspects of life?



Ah, but I don't believe in the supernatural. 
If I said to you that since you are so convinced that Harry Potter doesn't exist (I am assuming this), can't you just believe in him to spice things up? 
Your magical thinking is no different from the magic in Harry Potter to me, so it is as rational to believe in that since "I am so certain in my beliefs" as it would be to believe in Harry Potter.


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## angelophile (Jun 30, 2012)

Good day to you Jakke

You are being reasonable in what you say, however I say that the many types of interactions we have with each other use many Illogical, allegorical, and mythological language structures.

to understand such rhetoric we use a variety of irrational subjective leaps of imagination.


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## angelophile (Jun 30, 2012)

May I quote Frank Zappa?

"absurdity is the only reality"


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## angelophile (Jun 30, 2012)

OK,

your harry potter allegory is a fair one.

but we try to enable children to develop imagination, among other reasons to be able to come up with new (also scientific) theories.

and to gain existential freedoms to enrich their world.


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