# Halp with teh wimmenz



## Jongpil Yun (Feb 8, 2008)

So, yeah, I've made no secret of the fact that I'm a major nerd lamer whatever, and that I'm a virgin (not that I'm very concerned). You can see a pic of me in my profile. But now, I've got my 2nd date coming up. Feb. 16th at the Seattle Art Museum. So like, zomg, halp meh plz.

Pic related. By the way, we met on the internet. OKCupid =  We went to Zeitgeist here in Seattle during the Superbowl for our first date. Man, she's hot. Pics don't do her justice.


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## Popsyche (Feb 8, 2008)

Remember yo jimmy cap! You don't wanna splatter the batter!


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## Jongpil Yun (Feb 8, 2008)

Popsyche said:


> Remember yo jimmy cap! You don't wanna splatter the batter!



I don't think you have to worry about that, much. My own estimate is that I'll still be a virgin at least 3/4 of the way through graduate school. By my own volition of course. I've had plenty of drunk girls throwing themselves at me at parties and the like.


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## Popsyche (Feb 8, 2008)

Jongpil Yun said:


> I don't think you have to worry about that, much. My own estimate is that I'll still be a virgin at least 3/4 of the way through graduate school. By my own volition of course. I've had plenty of drunk girls throwing themselves at me at parties and the like.



And ya didn't catch any of them? SHit! Where's Boober? This boy needs some 'ministratin' !  

That's cool! She is adorable!


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## ohio_eric (Feb 8, 2008)

Help with what? If she's going on a second date with you just be yourself. If she digs you it will all work out. So just relax and be cool. Though a small gift of some kind preferably something she would dig wouldn't hurt though.


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## Popsyche (Feb 8, 2008)

ohio_eric said:


> Help with what? If she's going on a second date with you just be yourself. If she digs you it will all work out. So just relax and be cool. Though a small gift of some kind preferably something she would dig wouldn't hurt though.



And make sure that it doesn't run on 3 D sized batteries. Not for a second date!


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## Nerina (Feb 8, 2008)

Hey if she's seeing you again, then you must not be so much of a


> nerd lamer whatever


 huh?  
And about the virginity thing, remember this for the rest of your life, virgin or not: if you cant be intimate with someone unless you have sex,the relationship is pointless anyway.But you know that already


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## ohio_eric (Feb 8, 2008)

Popsyche said:


> And make sure that it doesn't run on 3 D sized batteries. Not for a second date!




[sign] ^ Horny Old Man![/sign]


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## Popsyche (Feb 8, 2008)

ohio_eric said:


> [sign] ^ Horny Old Man![/sign]



It takes one to know one! ;p


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## Zepp88 (Feb 8, 2008)

She's a cutie dude, she doesn't seem to be worried about you being a virgin or a nerd so don't worry about it man. 

Sex can be bought  
























































Buttsecks


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## The Dark Wolf (Feb 8, 2008)

*Boober pops in*

Just be yourself. Heh. Well, about that...

Basically, just don't fuck up the bassline, Chuck.  *Mitch Hedburg Mode*



Some basic do's-and-don't, should be easy for someone so "brilliant."
*
Boober's Simple, Little List of Romance Awesomeness*
1. Don't be needy and/or clingy.
2. Do be assertive and confident. But don't go on about your "brilliance."
3. Don't be "Mr. Nice Guy." You goal isn't to be her friend, it's to be a romantic prospect. Be nice and shit, but not too nice. Notice how chicks always seem to dig assholes, for awhile at least? There's a reason for that. Ya don't gotta be a dick, but you also don't have to be Captain Creampuff.

Think about it. What do women like? The romantic, dashing man. Be that guy. It's like acting. You don't have to be over-the-top, but a little confidence and charisma go a long way.

4. Don't try to reveal all your cards overnight, share all your 'Feelings', and all that bullshit.
5. Do let her talk. Make an atmosphere for her to be comfortable, but...
6. Keep her guessing. Don't be predictable.
7. Finally, have fun. If you're acting like a stiff, you're fucking up.


Good luck, dude.


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## budda (Feb 8, 2008)

dude why you worried? just go, hang out, have fun.

i dont know why you mentioned your virginity - are you expecting to sleep with her soon or what...?

just be yourself, and go with it. you have a 2nd date, so obviously you're doing something right.

and hell yeah she's cute lol


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## The Dark Wolf (Feb 8, 2008)

"Just be yourself!"

Worst.Advice.Ever. 

Being himself is what has *kept* him from tasting the sweet delights of poonany-pie, boyos. This dude doesn't want to fuck a good thing up, and y'know what? That's a good attitude. Chicks are SELECTIVE. You don't cut the mustard, *slice* You outta there.


Follow my advice, you'll be aight.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Feb 8, 2008)

PIHB.


[/thread]


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## Zepp88 (Feb 8, 2008)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> PIHB.
> 
> 
> [/thread]



I think I know what that acronym is for


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## The Dark Wolf (Feb 8, 2008)

PIHB.

JJ, Dating Councilor Extraordinaire. At least, for guys who date chicks with anal and urinary fetishes.


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## Scott (Feb 8, 2008)

Also, don't mention that you asked for advice from a bunch of drunkin metal heads on teh internets.


And I agree with Boober's 7 Steps for Dating Success. The man seems to know ladies pretty well


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## Zepp88 (Feb 8, 2008)

I second the PIHB option


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## JJ Rodriguez (Feb 8, 2008)

The Dark Wolf said:


> PIHB.
> 
> JJ, Dating Councilor Extraordinaire. At least, for guys who date chicks with anal and urinary fetishes.



The chicks don't have to have the fetish. Rohypnol, 9 out of 10 women can't taste the difference!


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## Codyyy (Feb 8, 2008)

Somehow I KNEW what PIHB stood for the instant I read it. Probably because it was JJ saying it.


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## The Dark Wolf (Feb 8, 2008)

Shanks, Scotty. I also agree with your agreeing, and agree with your advice, which is sensible.

I also agree JJ needs help. JJ, you come to Toledo, Whore-Spa time!


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## budda (Feb 8, 2008)

i dont know what it means.


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## The Dark Wolf (Feb 8, 2008)

budda said:


> i dont know what it means.



You are destined for a life of boredom and lack of womens.


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## Zepp88 (Feb 8, 2008)

budda said:


> i dont know what it means.



You fail.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Feb 8, 2008)

The Dark Wolf said:


> Shanks, Scotty. I also agree with your agreeing, and agree with your advice, which is sensible.
> 
> I also agree JJ needs help. JJ, you come to Toledo, Whore-Spa time!



You know if I go there, I'm going to spend every waking minute hitting on your woman. I've never been with a black woman, but it is one of my goals


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## The Dark Wolf (Feb 8, 2008)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> You know if I go there, I'm going to spend every waking minute hitting on your woman. I've never been with a black woman, but it is one of my goals



Good luck with that.  Stand in line, everyone hits on her as it is.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Feb 8, 2008)

There's a line? Sweet. Does she have a hot and (much) younger sister?


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## The Dark Wolf (Feb 8, 2008)

Wouldn't you like to know?


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## JJ Rodriguez (Feb 8, 2008)

Fuck I'm good at derailing threads. I swear I don't do it on purpose


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## Zepp88 (Feb 8, 2008)

I've also never been with a black chick. Sounds tantalizing...


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## JJ Rodriguez (Feb 8, 2008)

I want to bone at least 1 chick of every ethnicity before I die. Preferably, I'd like to scratch a few different ones off the list at the same time.


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## m3ta1head (Feb 8, 2008)

JJ, it's PIITB you fuckup


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## budda (Feb 8, 2008)

I fail? YOU know what JJ is talking about! 

i kinda gots a wimman, its all good


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## JJ Rodriguez (Feb 8, 2008)

No, it's definitely PIHB. You must be thinking of something else.


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## Codyyy (Feb 8, 2008)

ITB FTW!


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## m3ta1head (Feb 8, 2008)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> No, it's definitely PIHB. You must be thinking of something else.



Oh god, you're sicker than I previously thought


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## budda (Feb 8, 2008)

lmao

PIHB - JJ said so!


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## JJ Rodriguez (Feb 8, 2008)

m3ta1head said:


> Oh god, you're sicker than I previously thought



You know what's bad? I'm generally holding back when I post here


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## Scott (Feb 8, 2008)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> No, it's definitely PIHB. You must be thinking of something else.



Truth. When you're gonna put your PIHB, you can't waste time on a longer acronym.


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## Abhorred (Feb 8, 2008)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> You know what's bad? I'm generally holding back when I post here



The stain on my rug says you have issues with holding back.


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## budda (Feb 8, 2008)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> You know what's bad? I'm generally holding back when I post here


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## Abhorred (Feb 9, 2008)

You don't need halp with teh wimminz, JP, you need halp with _us_.


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## budda (Feb 9, 2008)

Abhorred said:


> You don't need halp with teh wimminz, JP, you need halp with _us_.



WHAT? what exactly do you mean by that..


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## Abhorred (Feb 9, 2008)

budda said:


> WHAT? what exactly do you mean by that..



I believe that this summarizes the average SS.org "Girl Thread" pretty neatly:


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## budda (Feb 9, 2008)

C&H


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## Jongpil Yun (Feb 9, 2008)

The Dark Wolf said:


> Some basic do's-and-don't, should be easy for someone so "brilliant."



Damn, he's never gonna let that go. There's nothing wrong with speaking the truth, is there?


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## Zepp88 (Feb 9, 2008)

bewbs!


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## Jongpil Yun (Feb 9, 2008)

The Dark Wolf said:


> Yen, I start your official fan club.
> 
> I can't believe you're the same guy who made the "cream pie" allusion.



Bam. Not only do I have my own fan club, it's founder is a mod!

But he spells my name wrong.


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## Zepp88 (Feb 9, 2008)

Cream pie allusion?


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## Jongpil Yun (Feb 9, 2008)

Zepp88 said:


> Cream pie allusion?



It was deleted, unfortunately.


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## Zepp88 (Feb 9, 2008)

Jongpil Yun said:


> It was deleted, unfortunately.



Fuckin' mods 


I wanna see JJ let loose on here one day...


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## Splees (Feb 9, 2008)

I like 8008135 toooo.


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## Zepp88 (Feb 9, 2008)

Where!


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## El Caco (Feb 9, 2008)

Basically what has already been said, play it cool, don't try to impress her or act differently than how you would with your mates, what I mean is don't put on a an act to try to impress her, that will only come back to bite you if it works but it usually doesn't as women seem to be able to tell when your trying to impress them and wonder why you need to put on an act to impress them.

Just enjoy yourself and be yourself, remember the purpose of going out on a date is to have fun and find out if you both like and enjoy spending time with each other. Try not to think beyond the moment or expect anything, just have fun and enjoy the ride.


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## Codyyy (Feb 9, 2008)

Creampie


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## Nerina (Feb 9, 2008)

The Dark Wolf said:


> Captain Creampuff.


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## Stitch (Feb 9, 2008)

Interesting thread.


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## yevetz (Feb 9, 2008)

Dude. 

I have an advice. Realax. And\/



Someone falls to pieces
sleepin all alone
someone kills the pain
spinning in the silence
to finally drift away
someone gets excited
in a chapel yard
catches a bouquet
another lays a dozen white roses on a grave

to be yourself is all that you can do
to be yourself is all that you can do

someone finds salvation in everyone
and another only fame
someone tries to hide themself
down inside their selfish brain
someone swears his true love
until the end of time
another runs away
separate or united?
healthy or insane?

to be yourself is all that you can do
to be yourself is all that you can do
to be yourself is all that you can do
to be yourself is all that you can do

*you can be fading out 
and pulled apart
or been in love
every single memory of
could have been faces of love
don't lose any sleep tonight
i'm sure everything will end up alright
you may win love*

but to be yourself is all that you can do
to be yourself is all that you can do



The Dark Wolf said:


> "Just be yourself!"
> 
> Worst.Advice.Ever.


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## InTheRavensName (Feb 9, 2008)

"women don't like your hand under their bottoms Mark, that's been established"

fine advice from the world of Peep Show


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## Chris (Feb 9, 2008)

Guys....


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## Zepp88 (Feb 9, 2008)

Yes Chris? 



[action=Zepp88] notices this thread fell by the way side quickly  [/action]


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## Chris (Feb 9, 2008)

How about you guys tone down the whole "let's fuck up every OT thread with dick jokes" thing you have going on lately?


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## jaxadam (Feb 9, 2008)

The Dark Wolf said:


> Boober's Simple, Little List of Romance Awesomeness[/B]
> 1. Don't be needy and/or clingy.
> 2. Do be assertive and confident. But don't go on about your "brilliance."
> 3. Don't be "Mr. Nice Guy." You goal isn't to be her friend, it's to be a romantic prospect. Be nice and shit, but not too nice. Notice how chicks always seem to dig assholes, for awhile at least? There's a reason for that. Ya don't gotta be a dick, but you also don't have to be Captain Creampuff.
> ...




Excellent advice. It's not so easy to follow for someone without a lot of experience, because with experience, it's a little easier to put some feeling in check.


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## The Dark Wolf (Feb 9, 2008)

Summarized version then.

Relax - be calm, confident, and fun. Enjoy yourself!

And remember you're a catch.


Simple.


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## Kotex (Feb 11, 2008)

Wolfy is right with number 3 for sure. I've even had girls tell me that they liked that I "put them in they're place" and that I "didn't let them (her) walk all over me". You wanna' be nice, but not _too_ nice.


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## Jongpil Yun (Feb 14, 2008)

Kotex said:


> Wolfy is right with number 3 for sure. I've even had girls tell me that they liked that I "put them in they're place" and that I "didn't let them (her) walk all over me". You wanna' be nice, but not _too_ nice.



Considering I'm such an asshole, that's no problem.


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## Zepp88 (Feb 14, 2008)

I usually fall under the "too nice" category.


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## The Dark Wolf (Feb 14, 2008)

Jongpil Yun said:


> Considering I'm such an asshole, that's no problem.



So what's the update?


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## Jongpil Yun (Feb 14, 2008)

The Dark Wolf said:


> So what's the update?



Eh, she's in Pennsylvania, checking out Penn State and some of the other colleges there. Date was moved to next week in light of that.


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## sakeido (Feb 14, 2008)

One thing I do is give limited availability... instead of asking "when are you free?" say "Well, I'm not busy on Tuesday night so we can do something then." Goes back to you being the catch here, not her.


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## WarriorOfMetal (Feb 14, 2008)

"SIIHP" > "PIHB"


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## dream-thief (Feb 14, 2008)

I reckon I'm useless on this subject.

But none of my harem seem to think so, so...

I'm pretty egotistic and that in itself seems to be a catch for the first few times I see people, but then I've got to chill it down. I guess it gets me noticed more, but people get sick of it quickly. I'm not really the dating type though.

Just what personally works for me. But maybe attitude goes with physique. If I saw a really small guy with a massive ego I'd be inclined not to take him very seriously. - yeah thats a point actually - Make sure she can take you seriously, although by that I don't mean never crack a joke.

I wouldn't be too nervous either. Asking for help on a guitar-players forum kind of indicates you think you're clueless, But I'd be willing to put money on it that you'd do well left to your own devices, without asking any of us what you should do. Be yourself.


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## sakeido (Feb 14, 2008)

Conversely, a woman looking for a long term relationship (according to a scientific study) is also turned off by guys with exceptional physiques. Apparently, they think the time the guy spends building huge arms and a ripped torso is time he will not spend with her, relegating them to a one night stand/short term/casual friend deal. 
So basically, being ripped = manwhore with fluctuating achievement of ass, being normal = bf with real emotional attachment and higher average achievement of ass. 

Yes!


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## dream-thief (Feb 14, 2008)

Works for me.

I'm not 'buff'  by any stretch of the imagination.

I'm just not very small. I'm 6'2", but pretty thin.

I've never had a relationship shorter than about a year as well. (apart from that one last week... )


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## Jongpil Yun (Feb 15, 2008)

dream-thief said:


> I wouldn't be too nervous either. Asking for help on a guitar-players forum kind of indicates you think you're clueless, But I'd be willing to put money on it that you'd do well left to your own devices, without asking any of us what you should do. Be yourself.



Ha, you'd be amazed. Did I mention that I managed to make a girl think I was stalking her back in high school when I was trying to scrape up the balls to ask her out?

Let's just say that since then, I've been studying (if that's the word) the art of dating. Yeah, I'm a fucking nerd.

I'm normally pretty friendly, somewhat outgoing, I'm fine with touching other people and stuff, but holy shit, once I got my first crush (waited until I was 16, apparently) I had no idea what the fuck to do and turned into a total dumbass.

So far in 19 years I've had two girls I've thought of going out with -- one obviously ended up as a trainwreck. So I'm batting 0 for 1.


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## yevetz (Feb 15, 2008)

Jongpil Yun said:


> Ha, you'd be amazed. Did I mention that I managed to make a girl think I was stalking her back in high school when I was trying to scrape up the balls to ask her out?
> 
> Let's just say that since then, I've been studying (if that's the word) the art of dating. Yeah, I'm a fucking nerd.
> 
> ...



Dude...forget about "the art of dating"......just do what you want and how you want....

You not a nerd BTW


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## The Dark Wolf (Feb 15, 2008)

People give the worst advice. And JY's comments prove he needs real advice, good advice, not stupid jokes, homilies, or platitudes.

Jongpil is A) a virgin, B) a nerd, C) hopeless with chicks. Come the fuck on, you guys. "Be yourself?" What a load of horseshit. If you listen to that nonsense, you can possibly feel good about yourself. But your dating success will still be in the shitter, mark my words. Or, you can listen to the hard word (hell you're hard already! The kind of honesty you have with yourself is superior. You can totally win and become a Jedi master), you can have real change, and real success.


Jong, in all seriousness, if you have specific questions, and I know you're smart as fuck, PM me. 



Re - Sakeido - great advice, dude. You know what's up.  Supply and demand. Free usually equals shit. You know how hard it would be to get an audience with Bill Gates? But conversely, try asking financial advice from the bum down the street. I'm sure he's fucking available.


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## dream-thief (Feb 15, 2008)

-deleted post-


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## yevetz (Feb 15, 2008)

The Dark Wolf said:


> People give the worst advice. And JY's comments prove he needs real advice, good advice, not stupid jokes, homilies, or platitudes.
> 
> Jongpil is A) a virgin, B) a nerd, C) hopeless with chicks. Come the fuck on, you guys. "Be yourself?" What a load of horseshit. If you listen to that nonsense, you can possibly feel good about yourself. But your dating success will still be in the shitter, mark my words. Or, you can listen to the hard word (hell you're hard already! The kind of honesty you have with yourself is superior. You can totally win and become a Jedi master), you can have real change, and real success.
> 
> ...



Let's all bowing down to MISTA SMART AS FUCK!!!!






In my story.......I was chasing my wife 4 years....(but yes I was with other WIMENZ in that time .....only coz my Sasha always says no)...so if you want something you'll get it......just try hard 

Good luck


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## Thomas (Feb 15, 2008)

The Dark Wolf said:


> Come the fuck on, you guys. "Be yourself?" What a load of horseshit. If you listen to that nonsense, you can possibly feel good about yourself.


I just wanted to chime in and say I totally disagree with you. As far as I'm concerned, being yourself is the best possible thing you can do. Be honest. A relationship built on pretending to be someone else to appeal to the opposite person is bound to fall apart. I'm being myself and I feel great about it, thank you very much. 

I left you negative rep solely for the way you put it. I respect your opinion.


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## sakeido (Feb 15, 2008)

You can be yourself to a certain extent but you need to recognize when you are being too needy, or weird, or creepy, or overfriendly... I don't think anyone is suggesting that he be a totally different person, because that would be impossible and counterproductive, he just needs to recognize what isn't going to work and hold it in until he gets a sign to go ahead a bit more. 
For instance, expounding on your love for anime on your first date is probably not a good idea. But, if you wait awhile and she knows more about you, then she would probably see it in a better light because she already knows more about you and isn't going to depend on stereotypes to jump to conclusions.


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## Thomas (Feb 15, 2008)

sakeido said:


> You can be yourself to a certain extent but you need to recognize when you are being too needy, or weird, or creepy, or overfriendly... I don't think anyone is suggesting that he be a totally different person, because that would be impossible and counterproductive, he just needs to recognize what isn't going to work and hold it in until he gets a sign to go ahead a bit more.
> For instance, expounding on your love for anime on your first date is probably not a good idea. But, if you wait awhile and she knows more about you, then she would probably see it in a better light because she already knows more about you and isn't going to depend on stereotypes to jump to conclusions.


I call that _considerate_, and I completely agree with this post. Maybe I missed Boober's point.


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## Jongpil Yun (Feb 15, 2008)

to TDW and sakeido

Fortunately my first love isn't anime, it's science. Sweet, sweet, sciencey goodness. But yeah, what the hell is a boober?


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## budda (Feb 15, 2008)

sakeido said:


> One thing I do is give limited availability... instead of asking "when are you free?" say "Well, I'm not busy on Tuesday night so we can do something then." Goes back to you being the catch here, not her.




my mom said something to that effect last time she called  it's true though.

best of luck JY. i've been at this for a year with limited success.. hoping it'll work out or i'll hit it off with someone else.


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## The Dark Wolf (Feb 16, 2008)

I still call the pissy-ass "advice" of "just be yourself" horsehit.

Why is it horsehit? Because it DOES NOT FUCKING WORK. Unless you are a natural alpha, who has the natural confidence and experience of dealing with women, being yourself is SILLY. If being yourself means being scared, awkward, and, unsure of yourself, then if you "be yourself", meaning to behave the selfsame way you always do, you will continue to fail. Do what you always do, get what you always get. "Just be yourself" is failure masquerading as advice, all in the name of making someone feel "better" - read, to make yourself feel like less of a failure. "Well, we both fail together! At least we're being ourselves!"


Sakeido - once again, extremely well said. In JY's case, considering he's a self-admitted virgin, nerd, and hopeless with the ladies, OBVIOUSLY he has not been doing something right. So saying "be yourself" is akin to telling a beginner who's about to go on stage for the first time and attempt to play Dream Theater, "Hey, just be yourself!" Well, hello, practical fucking advice would be appreciated. How do I make an E chord? How do I deal with my anxiety? How do I keep time? How do I interact with my band? How do I deal with a hostile crowd?

"Just be yourself!" 

*Moderator Mode*
Thomas, giving negative rep for someone expressing their opinion, especially one backed up by experience and legitimacy, is an abuse of the system. I called no one a name, personally insulted no one, and only offered my opinion on silly, bad, unfounded advice. The rep system is not for you to validate posts with your personal approval. *You will not be warned again*. Thanks. 


And for future reference, spare me the preachy, condescending attitude in your posts. I don't need the likes of you to elucidate me on etiquette, posting, or dealing with women. For the record, you're also completely wrong. 

And only my friends call me Boober. Drive through.


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## Jason (Feb 16, 2008)

The Dark Wolf said:


> I still call the pissy-ass "advice" of "just be yourself" horsehit.
> 
> Why is it horsehit? Because it DOES NOT FUCKING WORK. Unless you are a natural alpha, who has the natural confidence and experience of dealing with women, being yourself is SILLY. If being yourself means being scared, awkward, and, unsure of yourself, then if you "be yourself", meaning to behave the selfsame way you always do, you will continue to fail. Do what you always do, get what you always get. "Just be yourself" is failure masquerading as advice, all in the name of making someone feel "better" - read, to make yourself feel like less of a failure. "Well, we both fail together! At least we're being ourselves!"
> 
> ...



I love boober


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## Zepp88 (Feb 16, 2008)

Damn. That was ownage  


Good job Boober, good job


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## Jongpil Yun (Feb 16, 2008)

The Dark Wolf said:


> Why is it horsehit? Because it DOES NOT FUCKING WORK. Unless you are a natural alpha, who has the natural confidence and experience of dealing with women, being yourself is SILLY. If being yourself means being scared, awkward, and, unsure of yourself, then if you "be yourself", meaning to behave the selfsame way you always do, you will continue to fail.



I'm an alpha around other dudes (I would guess), it's just (some) women around whom for some reason I change into a mess, because, I don't know what to do. But that's nothing new. I never know what to do. And I get by exceptionally well. It's just that I never _cared_ before, and once I did, it was like holy shit. Was that the right thing to say? Should I shake hands? Give her a comment? Everything that had always come natural to me was suddenly out the window. Before I had girls I was never interested in shyly asking me out while I did my best to politely turn them down, and now I'm the one freaking out. I mean, what the fuck. 

Anyways, like I said before, my first date didn't go badly. I actually think it went pretty well. I wasn't very nervous for some reason, except for right at the beginning, but once I bought her a latte and we sat down it went fine from there. The three hours went by like a breeze, and we were so deep in conversation the barista had to come tell us that it was closing time (we hadn't noticed that everyone else had already left). But I didn't touch her at all after shaking hands in the beginning and inspecting a ring of hers once, which is usually something I make a habit of doing (touching, that is) because it seems to make people loosen up. So I'm kind of mad about that. And once again, I was like what the hell, because it's usually something I just do. But whatever. Argh.


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## The Dark Wolf (Feb 16, 2008)

Touching playfully is a great tactic. It shows playfulness, interest, and makes people relax. 

Touching with great earnestness, or in a creepy way, off the bat, is a non no. It's almost like how you would joke around with a close friend or a kid sister. "Get outta here!" *light push*


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## Zepp88 (Feb 16, 2008)

Don't grab the tits within five minutes of meeting her, Gotcha, and noted.


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## Nerina (Feb 16, 2008)

As the world turns..............


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## budda (Feb 16, 2008)

so TDW, how do you recommend gaining oneself some confidence? it's something i gained in the summer, but moved to school, got told to stop by the wrong person and listened lol.

any tips there? i dont want to come off as king shit, but i do want to come off as confident and knows what he's doing. most of the time i do know what im doing haha


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## Codyyy (Feb 16, 2008)

Zepp88 said:


> Don't grab the tits within five minutes of meeting her, Gotcha, and noted.



Uhh, it usually works for me 


I mean, she doesn't _have_ to say yes...


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## Jason (Feb 16, 2008)

budda said:


> so TDW, how do you recommend gaining oneself some confidence? it's something i gained in the summer, but moved to school, got told to stop by the wrong person and listened lol.
> 
> any tips there? i dont want to come off as king shit, but i do want to come off as confident and knows what he's doing. most of the time i do know what im doing haha



Just belive in yourself. Don't feel intimadated by others and don't be afraid to look a lil foolish sometimes.


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## ZeroSignal (Feb 16, 2008)

Jason said:


> Just belive in yourself. Don't feel intimadated by others and don't be afraid to look a lil foolish sometimes.



Very true. Confidence but not arrogance. Looking foolish in a mistake sort of way is ok if it's an "everyman" kinda mistake where it could have happened to anyone. It helps to relate with them. Salespeople do it all the time to make a crowd like them, although this situation is slightly different.


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## Nerina (Feb 16, 2008)

shyness, silliness, gigglefits, goofy mistakes and randomness are huge turn ons, if its genuine, makes you more real and more human, and make people more comfortable around you.


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## The Dark Wolf (Feb 16, 2008)

It's a lot like a musical performance. The old adage 'fake it till you make it' is very appropriate.


What makes you feel confident playing guitar in front of someone? Inexperience? Lack of skill, or talent? Shitty gear?

Hardly.

Just the opposite. If you have lots of time invested in your instrument, you have experience performing, you have decent gear, these things all help to build confidence. Interacting with women is no different.



1. Talk to people, especially women. It's a skill like any other. The more you talk to them, the better you do. Think about it - improvement generally only comes when you move outside of your comfort zone. You don't have to make every conversation a pickup, but if you develop conversational skills, and then the confidence talking with people to back them up, women will find you more attractive.


2. Realize women are drawn to status. Make a habit of not *appearing* (magic word there) nervous or overly uncomfortable in public. Leaders and people with high status are above all confident. This shows in how you walk, talk, dress, you name it.

Don't hide behind a drink.
Don't stare at girls. Creeps them out. 3 second rule - you see her, go talk.
SMILE. 
Don't take yourself seriously. Rejection is fine. It's like fishing - you catch some, you lose some. Your world doesn't ride on getting turned down a few times.
Avoid one-itis - there's many, many, many fish in the sea.
Don't use "being nice" as a ploy to get a girl to like you. They see right through it. So many guys use subtle guilt to get a girl's attention/affection. "Can I buy you a drink?" 
Be playfully cocky. It's called flirting. Girls love, love, love challenging guys. And guess what? The better looking they are/more status they have, the more you have to be challenging.

3. Just like with good gear, good presentation rules here, too. Don't look like a slob. How many successful people do you really see running around looking like bums? Not many, and the possible few who do usually have something else really working for them as well to compensate (money, status, whatever).

Dress nice. Doesn't mean wear a suit, but look good. Look like you know what's going on.
Chicks adore good grooming. It proves you have the social capital necessary to dedicate resources to your appearance. Think about it - healthy animals always groom themselves.
Exercise. Great way to build confidence. If you look and feel strong, it can't help but translate to your personality. Watch 'Pumping iron' with Arnold Schwarzenegger to see a guy with tons of charisma and confidence in real life situations. He looked like a god.... and acted like one, too.
Be fucking clean. If you stink, chicks will not dig yo' funk, trust me.


And remember... a lot of girls say they want one thing, but really want something else.  Bad boys, anyone? I can be a fucking prick quite often, and in all seriousness, I have girls (and guys. WTF? I'm cool. ) come on to me all the time.


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## El Caco (Feb 16, 2008)

Hey Boober, I can't remember if I said it in here but when I say be yourself I don't mean it the way you might think I do. What I mean is be confident in who you are, don't pretend to be someone you are not. If you are happy and confident with who you are then you can confidently interact with women knowing that if it doesn't work its because you are not compatible and why would you want to be with someone if you are not compatible.

When I say be yourself I mean treat females like you would treat any other friend, I see a lot of people treat women in some unique or special way and constantly face rejection, I was once guilty of this. If you are doing this you are not being yourself. In my experience women appreciate being treated as equal and friends, they react differently to guys but when they say "I can't believe you just said that" and give you a playful shove that's a good thing. When I see guys constantly being rejected it is usually because they are not being themselves, it is usually because they are trying too hard to please the girl or be what they think the girl wants them to be.

By saying to someone be yourself, I don't mean not to change or continue what you are doing, I agree this would be bad advice. I mean stop trying to please women, stop trying to get that girl, be confident in who you are and treat them as friends and not some exalted race to be worshipped. Relax and have fun.

If you like yourself then why would you want to be with someone who does not like you as you are? If one has to act differently around women to gain their interest I don't hold much hope for a long term relationship as sooner or later the lady will work out that the man is not who he claimed to be and that the relationship is based on a lie.


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## skinhead (Feb 16, 2008)

And please, don't give her chocolates or flowers. Girls love originality. Not the classic gift.


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## El Caco (Feb 16, 2008)

The Dark Wolf said:


> 1. Talk to people, especially women. It's a skill like any other. The more you talk to them, the better you do. Think about it - improvement generally only comes when you move outside of your comfort zone. You don't have to make every conversation a pickup, but if you develop conversational skills, and then the confidence talking with people to back them up, women will find you more attractive.



If you just talk to women with no motive of picking up it is easy to understand what I mean by be yourself. If you confidently talk to women without the stress of trying to impress them and just focus on having an interesting conversation you are more likely to hold the girls attention and if she enjoys talking to you she will most likely size you up as a partner while she is talking to you. If all goes well with the conversation and there is body language or signals that she might be interested at the end you can ask for her number or a date. When asking for either I would continue with the being yourself and not make it a situation of doing something special. When asking for a number I might say something like "hey we should do this again sometime", "I've got a lot on at the moment but if you give me your number, I'll can call you and let you know when I am free". If a common interest pops up in the conversation you can say something like "I was thinking of going ............ on ............., would you like to come along?".

I have had more success with women by just talking to them then with any other method and I think that if they have already shown interest in me why should I do anything different on a date, just relax and have fun, work out if they are a freak or not and if not continue.


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## El Caco (Feb 16, 2008)

skinhead said:


> And please, don't give her chocolates or flowers. Girls love originality. Not the classic gift.



Why would you give them a gift, if it's not their birthday this just reeks of tryhard and could be interpreted as trying to buy their love or not having anything to offer yourself. I actually went to a girls birthday without a gift once and when she said "you did not bring me a present" I responded with "I thought I was your gift" or something to that effect, she responded with a playful slap and "someones got tickets on themselves" to which I responded "not me you bought them all" and she led me off arm in arm to introduce me to people, I ended up getting involved with someone else at her party but we remain friends to this day and she has since asked me why we never got together.

I have tried the gift thing in the past and never had success with it. I am definitely against the idea of giving a gift.


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## budda (Feb 17, 2008)

thanks TDW.

im slightly stuck on one-itis right now haha. need ter hit the gym asap too..


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## The Dark Wolf (Feb 18, 2008)

budda said:


> thanks TDW.
> 
> im slightly stuck on one-itis right now haha. need ter hit the gym asap too..



Honesty with yourself is the best starting place.  One-itis is a dead-end street, BTW. It leads to a lovely place called "sapsville." I have a friend right now who just bought this chick, real uh... hoochie, to put it mildly, her own house, moved in, pays all her bills, cares about her, became a dad to her bastard child (she had after a 2 week fling with a dude who's since went completely AWOL), and my friend SLEEPS ON THE COUCH.






And again, "be yourself" is useless bullshit. Who the fuck else are you supposed to be? Tronimus IX the Cyborg? C'mon. If you follow my analogy, on something we can all understand here, telling someone with little or no skill "be yourself" just before they have a musical performance is the most inane, ricockulous advice ever.

Practical advice, like my posts, are much better, and do a hell of a lot more good. I could tell a total guitar newb, "Have confidence!" and he would confidently suck.


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## zimbloth (Feb 18, 2008)

The Dark Wolf said:


> And again, "be yourself" is useless bullshit. Who the fuck else are you supposed to be? Tronimus IX the Cyborg? C'mon.



 Awesome insight as always Bob


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## Naren (Feb 18, 2008)

s7eve said:


> Why would you give them a gift, if it's not their birthday this just reeks of tryhard and could be interpreted as trying to buy their love or not having anything to offer yourself.



Definitely. To me, dressing up nice and going to a girl's house with flowers and chocolate just seems like you're trying WAY WAY too hard.

I've always just gone out with girls in what I always wear. A band shirt and jeans. If she doesn't like that, then I don't want to be with her. I've never bought a girl flowers or chocolate because I don't see the point. And it's not something I would do if we ended up going out. 

I don't treat girls like they're on this pedestal way above me. When people say "oh, she's out of your league," I think "there is no fucking league." The whole "she's out of your league" bullshit just means "she's an asshole." The "she's not my type" or "your not her type" stuff makes sense, but the "league" stuff does not.

Like TDW said, "Be youself" is the most bullshit advice. It really is the most cliched repeated advice out there that it really doesn't teach you anything.


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## The Dark Wolf (Feb 18, 2008)

Exactamundo. 

And Eric is uber sexy. He makes the clothes, the clothes do not make him. Us lesser mortals must make do, however. 

Plus, he always is clean as a whistle, and smells oh so nice. Cleanliness is next to sexiness, I always say.


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## Naren (Feb 18, 2008)

The Dark Wolf said:


> Plus, he always is clean as a whistle, and smells oh so nice. Cleanliness is next to sexiness, I always say.



 I, uh, didn't know you were always smelling me and stuff, but thanks, I guess...



Bob's got that cool, calm, and relaxed thing goin' on.  I'm sure it makes the ladies feel cool, calm, and relaxed as well.


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## The Dark Wolf (Feb 18, 2008)

I'm the Bubble Bath of Love.


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## ibznorange (Feb 18, 2008)

The Dark Wolf said:


> I'm the Bubble Bath of Love.



so you have furry bubbles?
i bet the chicks love that


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## Mattmc74 (Feb 18, 2008)

Jongpil Yun said:


> I don't think you have to worry about that, much. My own estimate is that I'll still be a virgin at least 3/4 of the way through graduate school. By my own volition of course. I've had plenty of drunk girls throwing themselves at me at parties and the like.



You have more willpower than I do. When I was your age I loved the girls who liked cocktails and one night stands!!!!!!!! Good luck with her!


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## JJ Rodriguez (Feb 18, 2008)

Just think, WWJJD? Then do the EXACT opposite.


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## ZeroSignal (Feb 18, 2008)

ibznorange said:


> so you have furry bubbles?



They have a cream for that you know.


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## Variant (Feb 18, 2008)

Jongpil Yun said:


> Asking for help on a guitar-players forum kind of indicates you think you're clueless...



 What? Why would you say that... you think he'd be better off on a soccer forum, a medical forum, cheese-connoisseur forum, or the worst possible: a dating forum full of douchey "pick-up artists" who are basically a bunch of prepubescent knobs who like to hassle women according to contrived pick-up novels.  Actually, this probably one of the _*better*_ places, I'd reckon. I've read a couple of studies that revealed overwhelmingly that musician/artist-type personalities have almost twice as many sexual partners as other personality types including athletic-types, business-types, etc.


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## El Caco (Feb 18, 2008)

Naren said:


> Like TDW said, "Be youself" is the most bullshit advice. It really is the most cliched repeated advice out there that it really doesn't teach you anything.



I think it is cliched repeated advice for a reason, because a lot of guys who struggle in the dating game do not be themselves, they think they have to act a certain way for women to like them or pretend to be something they are not because they think they are not good enough. Some guys have never tried being themselves in the dating situation but when they are not looking for anything find that opportunities present themselves, then they go stuff it up by thinking they have to be something they are not or have to do something special to please the girl.

Possibly you and TDW don't see the value in the advice because it has never been a problem of yours, perhaps you are both confident people who have never felt the need to act any differently to the way you would every day and do not understand why people would. Lots of guys I know do act differently around women, and would admit that they do not know what to do to attract women, I have heard some of them say they have nothing to offer a woman, these are guys that own their own home and car have a stable job etc.

I think guys not being themselves around women is one of the most common mistakes made so I think be yourself is one of the most important pieces of advice you can give.

I would follow that up with saying girls are just like guys in that they want to have fun, so when you are with them do something that is fun, have to be careful with this one but as what you might think is fun can be incredibly boring for others. A personal example, I like drag racing and if I go to an event I like to go start to end, often girls have said they like cars, like racing and would like to come with me but if I took them start to finish they would very likely get bored and not have fun, this would be a poor date. So if you are on a date you have to consider if it is fun for them as well.

I am not a super attractive guy (how many people have told me lately I look like JD from Korn ), I have a gut and a hairy chest, I do not work and I have three kids yet with all this going against me when I went down the pub for a drink on Thursday just to relax and have a good time I had girls flirting with me and was propositioned for sex. What did I do to get this attention? I got drunk, run amok and talked to people. I was not looking for anything and did nothing extraordinary, I paid no one special attention, I just acted like the dick I am and occasionally bitched about life. Still the lady that propositioned me said things like "if I was your wife I [insert fabulous claim here]" repeatedly and even tried to get me other women by telling them what a great guy I am, I had only met her once previously and that was when I helped a friend sell her a computer that recently died on her.

Incidents like these are common for me and all I am doing is being myself but it was not always like this as once I was a dating loser, back then I tried to act the way I thought would impress women, I still got plenty of attention but only from female friends and other girls that I had no interest in, the ones that I was myself around. It took me a while to put two and two together.

So I stand by my advice, I believe it is important advice and find it upsetting that anyone would claim it bullshit advice.


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## Trespass (Feb 24, 2008)

I've read this whole thread through, and all I can say is


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## The Dark Wolf (Feb 24, 2008)

Why ?

Steve, don't get upset. I still think it's total bullshit - cliched, simplistic, and patently lacking in any practical value. But if you mean by "be yourself" you relax and be confident, well... that's a start. It can get you there a little. But if you have very little SKILL with women (think of it like guitar), then sure, being stiff won't help at all, but being relaxed can't substitute skill and experience. My whole point.


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## Jongpil Yun (Feb 25, 2008)

Mattmc74 said:


> You have more willpower than I do. When I was your age I loved the girls who liked cocktails and one night stands!!!!!!!! Good luck with her!



It's not really too hard. They were mostly types I'm not interested in, anyways. For some reason I'm only really attracted to redheads and asians  Fucking Evangelion for programming me into liking loud brilliant headstrong and rational bitches 

I have no problems with waiting, anyways. A family friend just got married last year. He got out of med school at 30 a virgin, bought his first house the next year, paid for a Mercedes in cash, and just married a 21 year old virgin at 32  Shit sounds good to me.

Also, Variant, that wasn't me who said that 

I figured this was a better place to ask than any of the science forums I frequent.


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## The Dark Wolf (Feb 25, 2008)

Jongpil Yun said:


> I have no problems with waiting, anyways. A family friend just got married last year. He got out of med school at 30 a virgin, bought his first house the next year, paid for a Mercedes in cash, and just married a 21 year old virgin at 32  Shit sounds good to me.


Until she starts banging the uber-studly pool boy.

Status and economics resources are important, and chicks go for that in a mate, but they generally want more in a lover. If a guy is woefully lacking in the skill department, she'll go looking. Just like we would if we got saddled with a fugly. Shit... we look even if we've landed a hottie.


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## Jongpil Yun (Feb 25, 2008)

The Dark Wolf said:


> Until she starts banging the uber-studly pool boy.
> 
> Status and economics resources are important, and chicks go for that in a mate, but they generally want more in a lover. If a guy is woefully lacking in the skill department, she'll go looking. Just like we would if we got saddled with a fugly. Shit... we look even if we've landed a hottie.



 I'll keep in mind not to hire a poolboy.

I think I'm pretty good looking, if I do say so myself. And as for skills, well, I'm a quick learner.


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## budda (Feb 25, 2008)

Jongpil Yun said:


> I figured this was a better place to ask than any of the science forums I frequent.



 that is a good idea 

so what's the udpate? or did i miss it?


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## Jongpil Yun (Feb 25, 2008)

Update? Not much  Going on a date this Sunday.


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## Thomas (Feb 25, 2008)

Maybe I can chime in with something everyone can agree on this time: shave.

Girls prefer making out with guys when there is no facial hair scraping against their face.


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## Shotglass (Feb 25, 2008)

Depends on the girl.

Some girls will like you regardless of how you are.
Some girls are picky.

Basically just react to how she acts towards you because there's no point saying "be like this" or giving specific advice like that when it entirely depends on the girl, because every girl likes something entirely different.

Essentially, pay attention and you'll be fine.



Thomas said:


> Maybe I can chime in with something everyone can agree on this time: shave.
> 
> Girls prefer making out with guys when there is no facial hair scraping against their face.



Also, I like Aaron's facial hair. It tickles.


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## OzzyC (Feb 25, 2008)

Thomas said:


> Maybe I can chime in with something everyone can agree on this time: shave.
> 
> Girls prefer making out with guys when there is no facial hair scraping against their face.



Not necessarily. 

I know of several who prefer a little fuzz. 
(And for anyone who thinks of turning a joke on that, we're only talking about on your face. )


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## Naren (Feb 26, 2008)

Thomas said:


> Maybe I can chime in with something everyone can agree on this time: shave.
> 
> Girls prefer making out with guys when there is no facial hair scraping against their face.



 "Something *everyone* can agree on," eh? Then what about those of us with facial hair?

While I'm not going to say that you're 100% wrong, I will say that that's not necessarily true, dude.

I have a goatie and my girlfriend's sister met me back when I shaved every day and then met me when I had the goatie and the first thing she said was, "Wow. You look really cool with the facial hair. It looks a lot better than before." and I had a lot of girls commenting on how they like it. And I've been dating the same girl for 2 and a half years and she's never once complained about it. When I was dating my ex-girlfriend, I'd sometimes shave off all my facial hair and sometimes grow it out and she actually liked it when I had facial hair.

It totally depends on the girl. I could use Johnny Depp as an example of a guy with facial hair that's considered pretty good-looking by most girls.


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## Thomas (Feb 26, 2008)

Every single girl I have talked to about that subject has told me the exact same thing: "shave, it is really so much better". I even had one complaining on me, telling me that I should shave, even though my facial hair was so short you could barely feel it. 

To be fair, Naren, I think looks and feel are two entirely different things. While a female may appreciate the looks of a goatee, or a mustache, or whatever -- that does not mean she will appreciate it rubbed all over her face. Or did you actually make out with your girlfriend's sister?


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## The Dark Wolf (Feb 26, 2008)

Thomas, wrong again.

I don't agree at all. Facial hair might be a preference for some, but not for others. It's completely irrelevant, at least as long as it doesn't look like scrubby shit.


And there's no need to insult Naren with a shitty crack like that.


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## The Dark Wolf (Feb 26, 2008)

Jongpil Yun said:


> Update? Not much  Going on a date this Sunday.



Good success, Tiger.  You'll do fucking great.


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## Thomas (Feb 26, 2008)

My apologies to Naren. No offense intended.


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## Naren (Feb 26, 2008)

Thomas said:


> My apologies to Naren. No offense intended.



None taken. 

I'm not saying that all girls like facial hair. My mom hated it when my dad had facial hair, but I've also met girls who loved it. My one girlfriend was almost mad at me when I shaved my facial hair off. Most girls I know do not like it when guys have long hair, but the drummer for my band almost has a fetish for guys with really long hair, so she was actually pretty pissed when I cut it off a few weeks ago. Everyone's different, I guess.


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## budda (Feb 26, 2008)

Shotglass said:


> Also, I like Aaron's facial hair. It tickles.



see, this is what you guys need! a girl's opinion!

on a side note, aaron is a hairy mofo


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## Thomas (Feb 26, 2008)

The Dark Wolf said:


> Facial hair might be a preference for some, but not for others. It's completely irrelevant, at least as long as it doesn't look like scrubby shit.


I was thinking that age could be a significant factor here. I know that both you guys (TDW and Naren) are older than me (I am 20), and I assume that you also have significant others around your age, who could be big influences on your opinions expressed here. If facial growth comes with age, perhaps taste for it does as well. Just a random thought.


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## The Dark Wolf (Feb 26, 2008)

For the last almost 20 years, I've had facial hair, I've not had facial hair, I've had girlfriends when I had it, when I didn't, I've had beards, mustaches, goatees, chinstraps, soul patches, sideburns, you name it. Hasn't mattered shit.

I've had plenty of girlfriends in any and all cases. Like Naren says, everyone is different. It's irrelevant. Saying to shave to get girls is, here, I'll use the term you love, total *bullshit* advice, in my opinion.


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## budda (Feb 26, 2008)

you do love that term, TDW


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## Jongpil Yun (Feb 26, 2008)

Thomas said:


> Maybe I can chime in with something everyone can agree on this time: shave.
> 
> Girls prefer making out with guys when there is no facial hair scraping against their face.



Considering it takes me about three weeks to get a pathetic molester mustache, I don't think it's an issue. Fucked up too, because I have the hairiest legs I've ever seen.


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## Shotglass (Feb 28, 2008)

Thomas said:


> I was thinking that age could be a significant factor here. I know that both you guys (TDW and Naren) are older than me (I am 20), and I assume that you also have significant others around your age, who could be big influences on your opinions expressed here. If facial growth comes with age, perhaps taste for it does as well. Just a random thought.



I really don't think it's an age thing. I'm 20 and I like it. I've always liked facial hair. Well, beards. I'm not a huge fan of moustaches. I don't like to date 70's porn stars, but some people do. *shrug*


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## The Dark Wolf (Feb 28, 2008)

But... but... It's so attractive!


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## HighGain510 (Feb 28, 2008)

The Dark Wolf said:


> But... but... It's so attractive!



I think you've been out in the sun too long, Brother Dahhhhkness! You look like 50 cent!


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## The Dark Wolf (Feb 28, 2008)




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## budda (Feb 28, 2008)

The Dark Wolf said:


> But... but... It's so attractive!



 ROFL MY WAFFLE!!!

he looks 40! LOL


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## Jongpil Yun (Feb 28, 2008)

Why did I see that picture and immediately think "Pedro"?


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## The Dark Wolf (Feb 28, 2008)




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## Shotglass (Feb 28, 2008)

Haha there's this one guy that works in one of the corner stores down the street who looks almost IDENTICAL to that picture.

I can't stop laughing!


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## budda (Feb 28, 2008)

you must show me when im over!


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## Shotglass (Feb 28, 2008)

I've only seen him there like.. once or twice. I think he's just the friend of one of the people that owns the place. It's like, a little no name corner store past Adelaide towards the East End. If I ever see him again I'll snag a picture if I can.


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## Drew (Feb 28, 2008)

The Dark Wolf said:


> "Just be yourself!"
> 
> Worst.Advice.Ever.
> 
> ...



 You know, that's actually good advice. "Just Be Yourself" is great advice if you're already knee deep in available ass and chicks obviously dig something about you, in which case you're not in need of great advice.  

On the flip side, pretending to be someone you're not, having a chick fall for you, and then being left with the decicion between keeping pretending to be someone you're not, or acting like yourself and letting your guard down snd risking losing her is a pretty shitty position to be in, and is all the more so for the possibility that you can never be sure that if you're pretending to be someone you're not, and you lose the girl after that first date, that just maybe she would have been interested you if you'd been brave enough to let your guard down and acted like yourself, as just maybe that's what she was looking for, and rejected you because you weren't it, even though you really were and were just letting on that you weren't. 

So, I'll toss out a contrasting suggestion, now that I think about it for more than a few seconds: be yourself. Just, be yourself minus any second date jitters - be a more confident version of yourself, who knows that this chick is interested enough in you that clearly there must be something in you that she reacts positively to, so don't let her see any signs that you're afraid to let her see that. 

In other words, just be yourself, but be sure that you believe in yourself.


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## Drew (Feb 28, 2008)

The Dark Wolf said:


> I still call the pissy-ass "advice" of "just be yourself" horsehit.
> 
> Why is it horsehit? Because it DOES NOT FUCKING WORK. Unless you are a natural alpha, who has the natural confidence and experience of dealing with women, being yourself is SILLY. If being yourself means being scared, awkward, and, unsure of yourself, then if you "be yourself", meaning to behave the selfsame way you always do, you will continue to fail. Do what you always do, get what you always get. "Just be yourself" is failure masquerading as advice, all in the name of making someone feel "better" - read, to make yourself feel like less of a failure. "Well, we both fail together! At least we're being ourselves!"



I just read the rest of the thread. 

I'm going to call BS here. Technically, the way you couch the debate, Bob, you're right. 

But, that's a total straw man. When a bunch of guys tell a guy, "just be yourself, you'll be fine," they're not saying, "be scared, awkward, and unsure of yourself, because chicks eat that shit up!" You agree as well as I that this would be stupid. 

Rather, "Just be yourself" is probably more aptly expressed as "just _trus_t yourself." Or maybe "Just _believe_ in yourself." The part of you that is insecure around women isn't yourself. Rather, it's a second-order reaction to yourself - a fear that whatever it is that constitutes "yourself" is something that a woman would reject. 

When someone tells you "just be yourself," they're not saying "embrace this fear that you're lowly scum, no more than an insect that any desireable woman would be repulsed by or, even worse, laugh at." Rather, they're saying "tell that fear that you're not desireable to shove it's head up its ass and get packing, and go in there and just not let your insecurities influence you and prevent you from being the person that you are, because if she agreed to go out with you then obviously there's something in there she found interesting." 

This is why I think that ladder theory stuff is horseshit. It presupposes WAY too much, and is an elaborately constructed metaphor that doesn't really add much value over and above its own terminology to this debate. If just having words to use is in itself valuable enough for you, whatever, but I don't buy it.


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## The Dark Wolf (Feb 28, 2008)

Drew said:


> In other words, just be yourself, but be sure that you believe in yourself.



Hey Drew. Use that same advice when you're taking your exam. 

Study? Meh. Just be yourself.


Great. Confidence is essential. But you must, must, MUST have skills to back them up. And sending a guy out with less than minimal chick skills, but telling him to be confident in those skills, is a big


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## Drew (Feb 28, 2008)

The Dark Wolf said:


> So saying "be yourself" is akin to telling a beginner who's about to go on stage for the first time and attempt to play Dream Theater, "Hey, just be yourself!" Well, hello, practical fucking advice would be appreciated. How do I make an E chord? How do I deal with my anxiety? How do I keep time? How do I interact with my band? How do I deal with a hostile crowd?



See, this is sort of what I'm getting at. "Just be yourself is the WAY you deal with anxiety - by telling yourself that the anxiety is external to you, and that you need to futher externalize it and focus on what it is that makes you yourself. 

I mean, some DT fans also dig the White Stripes. Trying to be John Petrucci when you're Jack White won't get you anywhere, but Jack White can be Jack White much more convincingly than Petrucci ever could, and the sincerity counts for a lot more than you might think with a woman.


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## Drew (Feb 28, 2008)

The Dark Wolf said:


> Hey Drew. Use that same advice when you're taking your exam.
> 
> Study? Meh. Just be yourself.
> 
> ...



 I scored a 5 (out of 5) on the AP Euro History exam so loaded the room didn't stop spinning until the final essay. 

I still think it's a straw man, Bob, because the enemy here isn't yourself, it's fear. If it WAS yourself, then you're fucked, plain and simple. But it's not - it's fear of failure. There's no reason JY can't go into this date and, if he's confident enough in himself, absolutely sweep this girl off her feet. 

I don't buy your analogy, basically. A more apt one would be to go in to take that exam not believing in yourself and second guessing yourself every step of the way. Sure, it's _possible_ to pass this way, but it's unlikely. It's like the old SAT adage, that more often than not your first hunch is the right one. You just need to learn to trust yourself - in short, believe in yourself that you have the abilities to suceed. 

Again, you're not the fear. The fear of failure is a fear of yourself being judged negatively, and as such it logically follows that it isn't actually part of yourself. Being yourself isn't being the fear of rejection, being yourself is believing that you have no REASON to fear rejection.


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## The Dark Wolf (Feb 28, 2008)

Depends on the context.

Think of it as a grand competition. (And if you think mating and sex aren't about the conflicting goals of men and women, and the competition that ensues from the dating scene, whoa nelly. We need to talk.)


So, to use your Jack Black anology, Jack would attact a certain type of msuic fan, Petrucci another. But Petrucci's skill would carry over into MANY areas, whereas JB would be more limited.

However, to call Jack unskileld is silly. He has tremendous skill - mostly in live performance. Where it counts. And that doesn't mean he just gets up there and does whatever. Know, he knows the performance essentials inside and out, through constant repetition and experience.


Just liek a pimp does with the ladies.


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## Drew (Feb 28, 2008)

You know, this is kind of funny. You're all ladder theory, and I'm all Zen.


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## The Dark Wolf (Feb 28, 2008)

Drew, you miss the point. You didn't take those exams knowing jack shit about history.

How much skill and knowledge you think a virgin who has literally scared girls off because they think he's a stalker has?


Not much.

Your argument isn't wrong - confidence is essential. But you're missing the forest for the trees. You must have SKILLS to back up that confidence. The idea that dating is just a simple matter of meshing 2 personalities together is deeply, deeply flawed.


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## The Dark Wolf (Feb 28, 2008)

Drew said:


> You know, this is kind of funny. You're all ladder theory, and I'm all Zen.



See, you think I'm saying you're wrong. Problem is, you're not.

But you can't confuse skill with confidence. Confidence comes because of skill. Again, you go take that test you have coming up, and don't study. Just have confidence.

Will 1 out of a 100 make it? Probably. But that's NO WAY to encourage and educate everyone else. It's consigning them to the crapshoot of life's failures.


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## Drew (Feb 28, 2008)

Jack White, Bob. Of the White Stripes. 

But again, the context is everything. The sort of guy who believes he's a Jack White, to run with the metaphor, won't be on stage in front of an audience of people looking for a John Petrucci. He'd be on stage in front of an audience looking for a Jack White. Furthermore, if he _found_ himself on stage in front of an audience looking for a John Petrucci, he would probably not want to get into the habit of performing for that audience, even if he thought just maybe he could pull it off that one night. 

So, let's return to the subject at hand. JY has found himself "on stage" with a woman who seems to be intrigued by the sort of performance a man like JY can put on. We can deduce this based on the fact she was interested by his online profile (how he projects himself) and that she was interested enough for a second date. Assuming he projects himself more or less as he is in real life (which is fair, as this is date #2), then I think this is a very reasonable assumption. 

So, why then would it be in his best interest to start playing the part of a pimp? There's clearly been some preselection thus far, so as long as he hasn't presented himself as something other than he is (exception - confidence, or not being afraid of rejection), then he's in a context where he can suceed. 

As a correlary, I would argue that it's not true that the point of dating is for every date to end (after one date, after many, whatever) in sex/attainment. Rather, it's largely finding the correct context. I mean, if I found myself on a date with an attractive woman who preferred Republican Ivy League educated lawyers from old money, could I fake it? Possibly... But I wouldn't want to. I'd chat my way through dinner, pick up the tab, and then say, "I'm sorry, I had a pleasant evening but I don't see this going anywhere." 

Context cuts both ways, you know?


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## Drew (Feb 28, 2008)

We can agree to disagree, then. I think discounting "just be yourself" because you think the self is a whiny, shriveling little thing paralized by fear does a total injustice to the conception of the self. Rather, it's simply saying "be confident in yourself." 

If a woman doesn't like me for who I am, then frankly I'm not interested in her.


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## Jongpil Yun (Feb 28, 2008)

Drew said:


> So, let's return to the subject at hand. JY has found himself "on stage" with a woman who seems to be intrigued by the sort of performance a man like JY can put on. We can deduce this based on the fact she was interested by his online profile (how he projects himself) and that she was interested enough for a second date. Assuming he projects himself more or less as he is in real life (which is fair, as this is date #2), then I think this is a very reasonable assumption.



To quote the first paragraph of my self summary,



Me said:


> I believe that you can learn a lot about someone from their faults, so I am an aloof, arrogant, argumentative, lazy, creepy, elitist asshole.



I figure from there it can probably only get better.


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## lordofthesewers (Feb 29, 2008)

Dark Wolf, I'm sorry to say but your view of relationships is really shallow. Your suggestion would work for the Holister wearing type of girl. obviously, the girl JY is dating is NOT that type of girl, but a more intelectual, humoruos person. Take a look at the picture. SHe looks pretty, but her shirt has an integral symbol on it. Now, that doesn't make it less pretty, but makes her more secure in herself. She is a nerd, and she is proud of it. She is most likely not looking for a guy with a six pack who is a natural alpha and can beat up every gangster there is in downtown LA at night, but she looks for an understanding, smart, guy with a backbone with similar interests. 


i agree with drew 100%


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## JBroll (Feb 29, 2008)

It's quite simple, really.

If being yourself gets you what you want, be yourself. Otherwise, fix yourself.

Fucking hell, it works for me. That's saying something.

Jeff


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## budda (Feb 29, 2008)

drew, you're a wordy fucker 

this is a very interesing thread. where's laura?! haha


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## Shotglass (Feb 29, 2008)

budda said:


> drew, you're a wordy fucker
> 
> this is a very interesing thread. where's laura?! haha



I've had my input. I can't think of much else to add, because again, it depends on the girl. I can only say what I like in a guy.






And he's on this forum.



I guess that tells you about my tastes.


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## The Dark Wolf (Feb 29, 2008)

lordofthesewers said:


> Dark Wolf, I'm sorry to say but your view of relationships is really shallow. Your suggestion would work for the Holister wearing type of girl. obviously, the girl JY is dating is NOT that type of girl, but a more intelectual, humoruos person. Take a look at the picture. SHe looks pretty, but her shirt has an integral symbol on it. Now, that doesn't make it less pretty, but makes her more secure in herself. She is a nerd, and she is proud of it. She is most likely not looking for a guy with a six pack who is a natural alpha and can beat up every gangster there is in downtown LA at night, but she looks for an understanding, smart, guy with a backbone with similar interests.


That's why I've been in a happy relationship for over 10 YEARS. 


Save the condescending judgments. You completely miss the point. It's not about affecting something unnatural, or becoming someone you're not. Your so-called "analysis" of my interpretation about dating is equivalent to -

Someone who has no skill on guitar asks you for advice for a recital. You say, you need to work on these things...
1. Timing
2. Relaxation techniques
3. Sight reading

And practice playing in front of people. Go over your material. Hone your technique.

And he replies, "Dude! You're so shallow! I just want to feel the music!"



How is what I said "shallow?" Advising somebody to know what they're doing when they court a lady is shallow? I say again, emphatically, ridiculous.

Drew is right on what he says... I don't see the disagree part. He's just missing the big picture. Again, Drew, go ahead and take that CPA type test without any preparation, save confidence. Go ahead. See how it works.

Why does dating have to be different? Answer is - it isn't. Most of this wishy-washy advice to "be yourself" is not empirical. It's not proven. It's the consolation prize after you've failed.

Obviously, again! You aren't going to try to be someone you're not, Here's a quote from *gasp* an ACTUAL GIRL, from a book I'm reading right now

_Some guys just seem to know what they are doing. The know how to approach you and just make you feel good. Then you get these nerds... who can't get anything right. *They come on strong at first*, but can't keep it together... they just hang around until you dump them by going over to the rest room or going over to a friend to talk._

Amazon.com: The Evolution of Desire: Strategies of Human Mating: David M. Buss: Books

People make a huge mistake when they assume that male and female dating and mating strategies are identical. They are NOT. Not even close. Would Jongpil be pursuing anything with this girl if she looked like Quasimodo? I highly doubt it. Would she show interest in him if he didn't have intelligence and promise? Well, that's the 24,000 dollar question.

So, go ahead. Have nasty teeth, stank breath, dress like a bum, spout obscenities, but by all means, BE YOURSELF. And see how far that will get you.  Of course you need to be yourself (to an extent), of course you need confidence, but confidence does not come about in a vacuum... it comes about through the experience gained from the application of knowledge and skill. That is HARDLY "shallow."


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## Drew (Feb 29, 2008)

Bob, you're still misinterpreting the phrase "be yourself," and basing your rejection on an incorrect interpretation. You're a pretty bright guy and usually a lot of fun to argue with, but until you're at least willing to consider the fact that you're using an extreme, value-loaded interpretation of that phrase as the basis of your rejection, then any good advice you have to bring to the table is just going to get overlooked because your vehement rejection of a two word phrase is just turning off so many potential listeners. 



The Dark Wolf said:


> So, go ahead. Have nasty teeth, stank breath, dress like a bum, spout obscenities, but by all means, BE YOURSELF. And see how far that will get you.



Is that really how you see yourself?


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## Variant (Feb 29, 2008)

Well after following this interesting exchange for a bit, I gotta say I'm gonna side with Drew here. Mainly because his rhetoric seems a lot more experience based, a good bit more practical, and the kicker here: A lot more *simple*. I'm not saying that there's nothing to be said for foreknowledge and preparedness (in any situation that requires aptitude at pretty much anything), its just that the angle that Bob is coming from with regard to this particular hot topic, is in reality, a library&#8217;s worth of subtitle complexities, and an absolute clusterfuck of conflicting folk rules that no reasonable person needs to try to navigate.  I&#8217;m not criticizing you in particular, Bob (as you do have some good points), merely the general sources of a lot of the ideas you&#8217;re parroting. 

I just don't buy this "learn da game shit". It's just not practical (not to mention transparent as hell), and I think that the only people who that it applies to are those who are think it really exists as some sort of working constant, and I just don't believe the majority of humans are all that interested in overanalyzing something to the point that you're not even in the moment anymore, and not paying attention to the experience and the person you're sharing it with. Intellectuals are constantly criticized for their overanalyzation of a topic, and then get thrown a 300 page book about "How To Be Successful With Women". 

Guys: It's attraction, not the friggen' BAR exam. Any dating experience should be enjoyable, and if at any point in time you feel like you are going through any unnatural motions to elicit a positive response... *WALK&#8230; AWAY...* Seriously. 

This is probably going to be grossly anecdotal, but in my experience if a girl is initially attracted to you to a decent degree, there isn't much you can do to dissuade her from pursuing you... short of massacring her family and burning down her house. I say that with confidence as my success rate with interested women has been historically excellent. I can&#8217;t say 100% why, but a general rule, I just that I don&#8217;t "pursue" women. In my decade or so of social experimentation, I was far and away more successful with girls back when I was much less experienced, and not the least bit concerned with "what I was doing wrong in da game". If you can't let your quirks out there and be yourself then she ain't attracted to you... simple as that. Actually, that&#8217;s the one point that I will agree with Wolfie on: The &#8220;don&#8217;t try too hard&#8221; thing&#8230; not because you don&#8217;t want to look desperate (until I&#8217;m shagging three different hotties a day, I&#8217;m technically desperate&#8230; most men are.. ) but, rather, because women essentially do the choosing&#8230; end of story. There&#8217;s just no point in showering her with attention, gifts, etc. (or, for fuck&#8217;s sake, distorting your personality) if she&#8217;s not made your life heaven for at least a few passionate months. If she&#8217;s flaky it&#8217;s because she&#8217;s not sure she&#8217;s attracted to you: Do not let her waste your time and make her decide if she wants you. She&#8217;s got your number. 

In short: As the Drewster said, be yourself, and be proud and confident about it. Tell her you like classical music, tell her you play D&D, whatever. If she winces at something that inconsequential, she ain&#8217;t genuinely attracted to you. Stick her with the bill and leave her to take a cab for wasting your time. 


Variant has spoken.


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## budda (Feb 29, 2008)

drew macks mad bitches.

/thread


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## Drew (Feb 29, 2008)

I go through kicks. 

I'll admit there's a certain tactical side to it - basically, you need to figure out what sides of your personality the girl responds to and then present those while giving her occasional glances of other bits and peices, but on some fundamental level if there's nothing in your personality and who "you" are that this girl would be interested in, then you're wasting your time pursuing her, even if you think you can fake that you're someone else, because ultimately it'll go nowhere. 

Besides, it's "rhetoric."


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## Jongpil Yun (Mar 1, 2008)

OK, apparently we've broken up.

I can honestly say I'm pretty surprised and confused, though not very depressed. My best guess is she met someone else.


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## Popsyche (Mar 1, 2008)

Jongpil Yun said:


> OK, apparently we've broken up.
> 
> I can honestly say I'm pretty surprised and confused, though not very depressed. My best guess is she met someone else.



I'm sorry to hear that! 

Well, I'm anxious to know. Were you yourself or were you one of us. I sure hope you weren't me!


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## Jason (Mar 1, 2008)

Jongpil Yun said:


> OK, apparently we've broken up.
> 
> I can honestly say I'm pretty surprised and confused, though not very depressed. My best guess is she met someone else.



 Sorry dude


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## Jason (Mar 7, 2008)

So.. anything new?


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## Jongpil Yun (Mar 7, 2008)




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## Thomas (Mar 7, 2008)

Her loss. You seem like a great guy.


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