# Modes Question?



## Quikblade (Jan 30, 2012)

Hey guys, was wondering a few things about modes. I think I understand them but I need someone to confirm if what I know is right.

My understanding of the modes is that if you were playing in C major to use a mode you would start playing on a certain tonic that would allow the intervals to remain as they must for that certain mode. 

For example to play the aeolian (TSTTSTT) you would start on A and simply play through the notes in the key from there. A little confusing possibly because then it would seem that you were infact playing in the minor but if im correct you dont necessarily have to change key to Am just by playing the aolian (do you?).

So if that is correct and I decide to play in F say (with Bb), then to play the Aeolian mode I would start on D this time as this would give me the correct interval spacing (TSTTSTT).

If you could confirm this that would be awesome. If im wrong though any recomendations on where i can learn more on this would be appreciated.

As Im just starting to get into the modes Ive been wondering about the different ways that they can be used aswell. I presume there main uses are in composing solos but if there's any other cool things you could suggest i try with them that'd be kl aswell.


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## Quikblade (Jan 30, 2012)

To maybe make my question clearer modes arnt scales in themselves. They are just patterns that can be used within each key using the notes of the diatonic scales?


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## SirMyghin (Jan 30, 2012)

It all depends on context, if all you are going to do is play the scale up and down then yes, the modes are pretty useless. I don't tend to think in modes anymore though, I find it more useful to think in chords and extensions/embellishments as the context is a bit clearer, and less rigid.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jan 30, 2012)

The easier way to think of it is that all of the modes (major, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, pure minor, locrian) are members of the "diatonic collection" and certain patterns lend themselves to pitch centrality. Those patterns are what we refer to as cadences. In this way, we perceive pure minor, harmonic minor, and melodic minor to be in the same family, even though the intervallic content of those three scales is highly varied. SirMyghin nailed it: chords are where it's at.


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## Solodini (Jan 30, 2012)

Basically, they're the scale starting on different notes of the scale. These posters have different harmonic qualities. As you noticed, the 6th mode is the natural minor scale. The other modes of the major scale are either major or minor, with some other variations. Lydian is major but with a sharpened 4th. Phrygian is minor with a flattened 2nd. As SirMyg and SW said, these create different avenues to your root note: different cadences, melodic and harmonic points of tension. 

Have a look at the free sample chapters of my book, linked in my sig below. That should clarify things for you. Just let me know if it raises any questions which it doesn't answer, or if I can help in any other way.


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## Solodini (Jan 30, 2012)

Basically, they're the scale starting on different notes of the scale. These posters have different harmonic qualities. As you noticed, the 6th mode is the natural minor scale. The other modes of the major scale are either major or minor, with some other variations. Lydian is major but with a sharpened 4th. Phrygian is minor with a flattened 2nd. As SirMyg and SW said, these create different avenues to your root note: different cadences, melodic and harmonic points of tension. 

Have a look at the free sample chapters of my book, linked in my sig below. That should clarify things for you. Just let me know if it raises any questions which it doesn't answer, or if I can help in any other way.


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## Quikblade (Jan 31, 2012)

Thanks for the help guys. So in a basic sense they can be used in scale runs to create certain sounds? Ill also check out the book solodini


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## Solodini (Jan 31, 2012)

Yeah, variations to your usual tonalities.

Let me know how you find the book.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jan 31, 2012)

Quikblade said:


> So in a basic sense they can be used in scale runs to create certain sounds?


In the same way that you can bang pots and pans together to create certain sounds, yes. You already came into this thread with a basic understanding of the intervallic construction of the diatonic modes, so let's move beyond that. In tonal music, there are four basic colors: the major triad (1 3 5), the minor triad (1 b3 5), the diminished triad (1 b3 b5), and the augmented triad (1 3 #5). If you array the diatonic modes according to their scale degrees, you get this:







(And this diagram demonstrates the chord qualities that you can extract from the modes.)

Really quickly, you can see that there are three modes that contain 1 3 5 (lydian, ionian, mixolydian), three that contain 1 b3 5 (dorian, aeolian, phrygian), and one that contains 1 b3 b5 (locrian). What you want to think is that you either have a major triad, a minor triad, or a diminished triad, and what you put around it is color. Here are some basic cadential patterns for each triad group. Let's assume that F is the tonic in all of these examples.

Major:
Lydian - G F (II I)
Ionian - C F (V I)
Mixolydian - Cm F (v I)

Minor:
Dorian - Bb Fm (IV i)
Aeolian - Eb Fm (bVII i)
Phrygian - Gb Fm (bII i)

Diminished:
Locrian - Ebm F° (vii i°)

Do you hear how we're inflecting each F chord with a different color as we add different chords before them? It's still going to be the same old Fwhatever triad, but the approach gives it the modal color.


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## 80H (Jan 31, 2012)

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 

1 & 8 function as major root/octave when played from 1 to 8 in that order from a long, unorganized view of the chromatic scale filtered to be the major scale. 

a mode occurs when you rearrange these notes without changing the order of the notes. 

WHY: 
Basically, you're modifying the major scale of a note that exists within whatever scale you're working with. So, for example, lets use C major. 

C D E F G A B C root to octave. 

if you were to simply rearrange the letters of C major to start with the 2 (D), you would have: 

D E F G A B C D root to octave. 

Now compare this to D major: 

D E F# G A B C# D. 

What you have here is a modified version of D major (D Dorian) that exists within C major. You don't need to add or remove any notes, all that you need to do is get the listener's ear familiar with the "D" as the root. 

This can be a little tricky without chords in the inner voicing, but you should be able to do it without any chords if you understand the concept. 

This is extremely useful once you've become familiar with the sound characteristics of all of the modes, because you end up with 6 free sound qualities that have their own feeling outside of the standard major/happy sound. 

Most people are familiar with relative minor (Aeolian, or rearranging the major scale starting from the 6) without realizing that it is derived from the modes. I think that has to do with the fact that major/minor are very easy sound qualities to understand (Happy/Sad), while things like Dorian have very esoteric sounds that can be difficult to explain (how do you tell someone that music feels optimistic or introspective? it's harder to explain that to someone than it is to explain happy or sad) 


I have an article series lined up for the modes that should help people in your position understand them a little better. It can be very helpful to have a chord change at the exact same time that you are trying to establish a new root (IE, going from C Major to D Dorian, using a D chord and playing a melody that "points" to D as the new root). My website isn't ready for the mass public yet, but it should be eventually  


hope i didn't write too much, let me know if anything here doesn't make sense/sounds wrong, did it in one take 
-Adam


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## fantom (Feb 1, 2012)

@OP: Yes D Aeolian is the 6th mode of F Major. I didn't read everyone's responses, but the ones I read, I agree with the theme... *do NOT try to memorize things this way*. D Aeolian is usually used in the context of a minor sound (or key). It should be treated as Dm unless context dictates otherwise.

The worst thing you can do is train yourself to play the scales without understanding why that scale is used (mentally). For example, if you are asked to play E Phrygian and you start thinking... Oh that's C Major... then start playing C Major scales... what are you doing!?!? They are the same notes, but have totally different sounds in context. As SchecterWhore listed already, you should be thinking about this in terms of harmony. E Phrygian is most likely going to sound good as a derivative of Em with heavy emphasis on the flat 2nd (F instead of F#). If you don't use that note, you probably shouldn't be using E Phrygian.

The main thing to take out of this... scales are just notes. The way you play it (resolution, pedal tones, etc.) determines the tonic note, not the name of the scale. If you think what you are playing keeps wanting to pull to a resolution, that is the tonic. The notes can affect it, but the overall feel is not dictated by how you name things. It is dictated by the sound.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Feb 1, 2012)

We are in accord. However...



fantom said:


> E Phrygian is most likely going to sound good as a derivative of Em with heavy *emphasis* on the flat 2nd (F instead of F#).



I hate that word.  There is a hierarchy, for sure, but it's not like you need to hammer down on a note to get a color across. In fact, withholding that scale degree that gives something its character makes it more powerful when it finally does arrive. I found an interesting model here:






In the phrase from 6-14 (Più mosso), violin 1's pitch content is a D minor tetrachord (D E F G) and violin 2 is using a G# minor tetrachord (G# A# B C#). (The piece is bitonal.) Both parts reserve their second scale degree (E and A# respectively) for the end of the phrase. It's the same story in the phrase from 20-27 (Tempo II). Bartók's eliminated 25% of his already limited pitch material for the majority of those phrases. What's the reasoning behind that? The way I see it, using a tetrachord means you can't get up the note a perfect fifth from your tonic, and the fifth degree's role is most commonly to cadence. There are a couple of other degrees that do cadential stuff: 7 and 2. We don't have 7, so 2 it is. Bartók's making sure that you hear 2 as a cadential function, since we're already operating in two keys and we need something to tell our ear where to go.

On another note, I whipped up something to demonstrate an actual context for modal harmony. 

Rush - Broon's Bane


I've attached a score for this. The tonic is G dorian, then it modulates to D aeolian for the B section (starting at measure 18). The A section's progression is thus:

Gm6 Gm6/Bb D(add9)/F# D(add9)/A
Gm6 Gm6/Bb A
Gm6 Gm6/Bb D(add9)/F# D(add9)/A
Gm6 Gm6/Bb A Bb7

Remember how I said that this is in G dorian? Good job, Alex Lifeson, only one chord in the entire thing is in the key. This is the opposite case of what I was talking about earlier: E is spammed in every measure. However, it's used here to combat the chromaticism and make sure you hear it as G dorian. He's not just doing that continuously, though: he pulls the E when the Bb7 chord comes around. That was probably for mechanical reasons, but it also avoids having a #11 on the chord. It's also nice because we're ending the phrase and moving into a new tonal area, so that pedal tone E is no longer needed. (By the way, that Bb7 is functioning as an augmented sixth chord.)

There are a few secondary functions in the B section, but it's pretty straightforward D aeolian. The only weird stuff is measure 22-25, which is just planed minor relationships. Also, it's not suddenly in D minor at the end of the piece; that Dm is a half cadence. Not everything ends on tonic!
(To be fair, it's supposed to continue into another song, so it's really not the end.)



80H said:


> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
> 
> 1 & 8 function as major root/octave when played from 1 to 8 in that order from a long, unorganized view of the chromatic scale filtered to be the major scale.



Just call them both 1. Eliminate redundancy, make things easier to understand when you go to the next step.


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## Quikblade (Feb 2, 2012)

Thanks very much everybody for taking time to explain. I think ive got the jist of the modes from what your saying. Gonna try messing around with them at the weekend and if ive got any further questions ill be back lol.


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## ElRay (Feb 2, 2012)

The in-depth theory is great; however, I've seen too many folks focus on the intervals and forget that the "mode" is meaningless without the context (tonic). C-Major and A-Minor are the exact same set of notes, but without tonic (either real or implied), the concept of a mode is meaningless.

Ray


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Feb 2, 2012)

Good thing there's not much of that in this thread, then.


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