# What are the terms to breaking the guitar speed record?



## chrismgtis (Mar 9, 2009)

Now, not that I am saying I CAN do this. Though I do trust in my ability to train and get there, depending on what it would take. At this point I'm just kind of curious what you have to do to break the world speed record on guitar. 

Do you just have to pick one note as fast as you can and get the highest recorded notes per second? Or is there more to it than that, like actually having to play a scale or something?


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 9, 2009)

chrismgtis said:


> Now, not that I am saying I CAN do this. Though I do trust in my ability to train and get there, depending on what it would take. At this point I'm just kind of curious what you have to do to break the world speed record on guitar.
> 
> Do you just have to pick one note as fast as you can and get the highest recorded notes per second? Or is there more to it than that, like actually having to play a scale or something?



I think the 'official' tune for the Guiness Book of Records is 'Flight of the Bumblebee', in the same way as banjo players have to play 'Duelling Banjos'.


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## ShadyDavey (Mar 9, 2009)

Tiago Della Vega at 320bpm (21.3 nps) as far as I know;

[metacafe]1529378/world_record_guitar_speed_2008_tiago_della_vega[/metacafe]

He can't actually pick that quickly if you watch the video but thats the amount of notes he's playing with a really, _really _low action and horrible tone. Bear in mind there are a couple of significant players at this level whilst playing musical ideas rather than chromatics and you'll see its pretty meaningless (or at least, in my opinion). 

Good Luck if you decide to give it a go


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## scottro202 (Mar 9, 2009)

Francesco Fareri can play 33nps (according to the speed thing on Ultimate Guitar), although he's sweeping, and this guy isn't I think. anyways, is 21.3 the OFFICIAL time?

and good luck if you do decide to do it


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## WhiteShadow (Mar 9, 2009)

Somebody get these guys some measuring tape, and fast!


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## ShadyDavey (Mar 9, 2009)

scottro202 said:


> Francesco Fareri can play 33nps (according to the speed thing on Ultimate Guitar), although he's sweeping, and this guy isn't I think. anyways, is 21.3 the OFFICIAL time?
> 
> and good luck if you do decide to do it



320bpm is the official speed - 320/60 = 5.3 x 4 (4 notes per beat) = 21.3

While it is "Official" it doesn't really mean anything to me aside from it being one of those silly facts I remember for no apparent reason  - its not as if it has any real musical worth when played that quickly. I always felt that Kee Marcello or Jennifer Batten both did far more interesting versions without resorting to out and out velocity.



WhiteShadow said:


> Somebody get these guys some measuring tape, and fast!



Its all cos I started playing in the '80's


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## chrismgtis (Mar 10, 2009)

Funny thing is I'm not a metal guy. I'm pretty much alternative. The heaviest I get is Alter Bridge. One reason I like the guy is because his style is somewhat metal these days (sort of) but the thing is he is employing more of a sort of legato technique rather than sweeping while soloing, which I think sounds significantly better. That combined with "non-metal" vocals makes it perfect I think.

I'm not sure I'd have a chance if I had to actually play something rather than just sweep picking as fast as I can.  

Yea, of course it has no musical base whatsoever. Most guys that you see that care about soloing "quickly" don't know that, which is 90% of guitarists in my area I think. That or they want to play country.


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## Yngtchie Blacksteen (Mar 10, 2009)

There are no official terms, but a friend of mine has come up with a way of measuring that is both easy to use and provides very accurate and dependable results.

He listens to recordings of people alternate picking(meaning up-down-up-down), and takes out one second of the fastest section, slows it down so that he can count the notes, and bases his figures on this. His results were published in Guitar World last year, and he's the guy who has put the most work into this, and publishes his results because he wants to put and end to these kinds of debates by offering very definite results. He's even posted clips of the one-second clips he's slowed down and 'clocked', so that people can hear for themselves, and not be in doubt that what he writes is true.

The reason he chose alternate picking is because it's very common, it takes a lot of skill to do it fast and cleanly, and it's easy to tell the notes apart when someone plays cleanly. He doesn't compare one guy who's tapping or sweeping to another who's alternate picking, but compares people who use the same picking approach.


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## ShadyDavey (Mar 10, 2009)

You're talking about Willjay - is he a good friend of yours? Seems a very nice chap when I've spoken to him although if you know him well I'm sure you'll be aware that theres been some debate over the years as to his method vs the other method as used by the chappies over on the UG Forum - suffice to say I can see the merits in both. 

WJ judges absolute Alt-picking speed and only counts picked notes, they count all notes in a second regardless of technique so of course there is some discrepancy in their results. Regarding Della Vega - WJ would listen and get a speed of around 14-15 nps at a guess because he can't pick any faster than that, the UG guys would measure the notes played and get 21.3 as I was talking about overall speed rather than picking.

If Guiness chooses to recognise TDV as official that is their business of course, but we could sit and debate the _actual_ value endlessly 

As I said before, give me music over sheer velocity.

If you're really interested, just get a piece of software called "The Amazing Slow Downer" and upload a clip into that. Either that or you could do it via Wavepad and one of the Windows audio players which is the way WJ does it as far as I know - its still very convoluted and 80's style


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## Yngtchie Blacksteen (Mar 10, 2009)

Willjay, yes, we've been pals for years. Gotta get my arse over to the UK and hang out with him, do some jamming. 

As for him vs. the UG 'method', I think theirs is ridiculous. The way they do it, it would mean that people are playing "one tenth of a note", or something equally ludicrous. They don't even listen to the clips, they just go: "Well, he's playing sixteenth over 163 BPM, so that means he's playing 23.38574 notes per second". That's just one of many examples, I've read even worse things there that just makes me question why they wanna go through all that in the first place.

Besides, Willjay separates clean playing from spastic slop. That's important, I think, because the guys he says are the fastest are the ones who are _playing_ guitar, not just moving their fingers really fast, hitting lots of random notes.

And yes, he sticks with one playing approach. To compare every approach to one another would be like comparing Paralympic athletes to Olympic athletes. One would have an advantage over the other, but it's still a race. I know, silly example, but I think you can see my point.

Besides, the ones who disagree with Willjay are usually someone who has an agenda.


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## ShadyDavey (Mar 10, 2009)

They don't count the "spasmodic" aproach to be fair - they just don't differentiate between sweeping/tapping/picking/legato (or even whole notes) because they're interested in overall speed rather than picking speed - the beauty of WJ's method is that its standardised (as much as possible) so its probably more of a "true" reading.

In all honesty, I hate that the thread in question reduces guitar to some sort of olympic event. I mean there are certainly some hugely fast players who also make music but there's also some absolute dribble (I really don't like the top two "fast" players in musical terms) 

Its like drag racing or something - I appreciate the "wow" factor but if they can't also play one note that reduces me to tears I ain't interested


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## jymellis (Mar 10, 2009)

ShadyDavey said:


> Its all cos I started playing in the '80's



 i know EXACTLY what you mean. i started in 1980. by 1985 it was ALL about how fast you could play. (typical 80s guitar talk) dude have you heard the new vai tape? "dude he fucking sucks malmsteens faster"!


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## ShadyDavey (Mar 10, 2009)

jymellis said:


> i know EXACTLY what you mean. i started in 1980. by 1985 it was ALL about how fast you could play. (typical 80s guitar talk) dude have you heard the new vai tape? "dude he fucking sucks malmsteens faster"!





Yeah, you got it. Thing is (as I said somewhere before) it all changed so quickly back then. Every week it seemed there was another hot-shot on the block and it wasn't about "Wow, awesome note choice, cool phrasing, nice chord voicing" it was simply "brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr" picking noise and widdle. 

Look at how many players from the 80's are left and its the ones who could do the speed soloing as well as being cool musicians that still work in music.


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## Scali (Mar 10, 2009)

jymellis said:


> i know EXACTLY what you mean. i started in 1980. by 1985 it was ALL about how fast you could play.


 
AND how big your hair was AND how tight your pants were 
To be fair though, the 80s also gave us really lush arrangements and catchy melodies/hooks.
There were some really tasteful shredders back in the 80s. That's what I try to take from that era anyway. These days you have guys like Petrucci and Loomis that just seem more technique-oriented, and their music doesn't sound as accessible. It's dry and mechanical. Guys like van Halen, Malmsteen, Satriani, Stevens, Lukather etc... they may be many things, but they were never dry and mechanical.


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## ShadyDavey (Mar 10, 2009)

Man, I miss mah big hair...>_<


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## Maniacal (Mar 10, 2009)

So this guy cant actually pick 21 notes a second?

Then how is that a record?

Surely you have to pick every note?


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## Yngtchie Blacksteen (Mar 10, 2009)

Maniacal said:


> So this guy cant actually pick 21 notes a second?
> 
> Then how is that a record?
> 
> Surely you have to pick every note?


Considering Della Vega overdubbed the audio after the event, and isn't regarded as a good guitarist by anyone who knows a thing or two about guitar playing, I wouldn't worry about him setting any records. You won't see his name in any book, that's for sure.

So yeah, he's a fraud. Sadly, a lot of people assume he's a great guitarist, and he gets accolade that should be reserved for actual guitar masters.


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## Maniacal (Mar 10, 2009)

But he has the speed record, so surely that means he must have been seen picking at 21 notes a second? Not saying that makes him a good guitarist, but it does make him a bloody fast one!

I would love to be able to pick at 320bpm just for the purposes of humour. 

If I could do that, I would go busking every day!


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## ShadyDavey (Mar 10, 2009)

Guiness clearly don't worry about differentiating between picked notes and notes played - we however know the difference and choose to ignore TDV anyway 

Fastest picker was without a shadow of a doubt Mr Shawn Lane.


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## Maniacal (Mar 10, 2009)

Are there any videos of Shawn Lane actually playing a single string sequence at 18 notes a second?

A lot of sequences are easier to play across strings, so I am not sure I agree with you there. 

If there is a video of Mr Lane playing 270bpm 16ths on a single string, I will be convinced otherwise.


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 10, 2009)

Although Willjay's method is easily the best approach to resolving this question so far, one thing it doesn't take into account how difficult the licks concerned are. For instance, most metal guys can play single-string picking sequences at a fair speed, but a lot of lot of Shawn Lane did doesn't fall under the fingers easily even at a fraction of the speed he played them.


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## Yngtchie Blacksteen (Mar 10, 2009)

Maniacal said:


> Are there any videos of Shawn Lane actually playing a single string sequence at 18 notes a second?


Of course, he frequently played at such velocities. Here's one such example:



Lots of tremendous picking runs, and this is playing that someone like Della Vega is physically incapable of nailing.



distressed_romeo said:


> Although Willjay's method is easily the best approach to resolving this question so far, one thing it doesn't take into account how difficult the licks concerned are. For instance, most metal guys can play single-string picking sequences at a fair speed, but a lot of lot of Shawn Lane did doesn't fall under the fingers easily even at a fraction of the speed he played them.


Yes, and that's also something that Willjay is quick to point out, even if he doesn't necessarily rank players after how difficult their licks are.

Lane is one guy who played difficult licks at great speed, another fine example would be John McLaughlin, who does most of his scariest playing on acoustic guitar.


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## Maniacal (Mar 10, 2009)

Like I asked, are there any videos of him sitting on a single string?

Maybe just playing an open string for 20 seconds or something?

Its a lot easier to pick 3NPS sequences than it is to play on an open string at the same tempo... for me anyway

Also, the really fast stuff Shawn Lane played isnt that hard. The sequences are generally very easy. Usually 3NPS sequences. 

Of course, some of the lines he played were insane but the 18 notes per second stuff was not. 

I am going to get forum raped now for "mocking a God"


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 10, 2009)

Maniacal said:


> Like I asked, are there any videos of him sitting on a single string?
> 
> Maybe just playing an open string for 20 seconds or something?
> 
> ...



No, not if you're thinking about the 'space ships' wide-stretch licks. I was actually thinking more in terms of his odd-grouped pentatonic sequences.


Regarding Willjay, does he count economy pickers?


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## Yngtchie Blacksteen (Mar 10, 2009)

Maniacal said:


> Like I asked, are there any videos of him sitting on a single string?
> 
> Maybe just playing an open string for 20 seconds or something?
> 
> ...


No, just for being wrong. Playing fast on a single string is _easy_, playing string-skipped diminished patterns is _hard_. The really fast stuff he played _really is that hard_, believe me. It's physically demanding.

I don't believe I have any examples of him playing at top speed on one string, and it really doesn't matter.



distressed_romeo said:


> Regarding Willjay, does he count economy pickers?


He does, if you ask him to. He prefers the sound of alternate picking, and has a pretty good technique himself, but he does clock economy picked lines as well.


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## Maniacal (Mar 10, 2009)

I dont agree. I can play 3nps diminished stuff ridiculously fast. 

However, I cant play an open string as fast purely because the string flaps all over the place.


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 10, 2009)

Maniacal said:


> I dont agree. I can play 3nps diminished stuff ridiculously fast.
> 
> However, I cant play an open string as fast purely because the string flaps all over the place.



That was kind of what I meant by bringing up that it's not really possible to take into account the nature of the lick when clocking players. If you want a similar example, I could crank a straight 3NPS scale (especially a symmetrical one with no tricky left hand issues) across all seven strings up to fairly high speeds with economy picking, but probably couldn't hit the same speed with strict alternate.

Until there's a consistent technical approach for electric guitarists, so everyone's working from a similar technical pallette, this is always going to be an issue...


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## Yngtchie Blacksteen (Mar 10, 2009)

Maniacal said:


> I dont agree. I can play 3nps diminished stuff ridiculously fast.
> 
> However, I cant play an open string as fast purely because the string flaps all over the place.


It's different with open strings, but I still don't see why playing on a single string would be so much harder than, say, string-skipping and similar.


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## Maniacal (Mar 10, 2009)

Yeah I see what you mean. I just question if Shawn Lane could actually sit on 1 string and play 16th notes to a click at 270 for long periods of time. 

Because that is seriously


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## ShadyDavey (Mar 10, 2009)

I wouldn't agree that Shawn's passages are 3 nps "easy" sequences. Its just that his very fastest have been those string-skipped 3npstring diminished arpeggios and I would love to hear a video of anyone hitting those at the same velocity simply so I could go shake their hand 

Even a cursory glance at his other solo excerpts reveal some very complex ideas happening at very high speed which is exactly what Guthrie and co have been saying for a long while.


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## Yngtchie Blacksteen (Mar 10, 2009)

Maniacal said:


> Yeah I see what you mean. I just question if Shawn Lane could actually sit on 1 string and play 16th notes to a click at 270 for long periods of time.


Shawn was a musician, and never had any interest in figuring out how fast he could play, unlike so many of his followers.

And Shawn played some insanely difficult licks at speeds that I haven't heard anyone else duplicate, isn't that enough?


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## Maniacal (Mar 10, 2009)

Yngtchie Blacksteen said:


> It's different with open strings, but I still don't see why playing on a single string would be so much harder than, say, string-skipping and similar.



Its just much harder for me. Its easy to get into the motion of 3nps sequences and just rip. But to actually sit on 1 string, play 16ths and accent every 8 at high tempos is so much harder. Especially with open strings just because its so much harder to control. 

Every body is different of course, maybe you find it a lot easier. But for me, once it gets back 220 open strings become the biggest challenge. Which is why I spend most of my limited guitar time working on them.



Yngtchie Blacksteen said:


> Shawn was a musician, and never had any interest in figuring out how fast he could play, unlike so many of his followers.
> 
> And Shawn played some insanely difficult licks at speeds that I haven't heard anyone else duplicate, isn't that enough?



Of course its enough. I just want to clarify HOW he played his 18 notes a second. I didnt insult him as a musician at any point, this was a discussion on picking speed and nothing else.


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## ShadyDavey (Mar 10, 2009)

I don't think that there are any clips of shawn sitting on one string simply because its not something he would ever do - I'd lay odds that given the same piece to play that he would be faster than 99&#37; of the rest of the guitar playing community but I can't prove that for the obvious reason 



Yngtchie Blacksteen said:


> Shawn was a musician, and never had any interest in figuring out how fast he could play, unlike so many of his followers.
> 
> And Shawn played some insanely difficult licks at speeds that I haven't heard anyone else duplicate, isn't that enough?



Its enough for me but thats probably irrelevant as I've been a Shawn fan for ages. Guthire has been clocked at over 20nps on simple sextuplet licks but he had no idea until a student told him......same story.

All the really awesome musicians seem to hear musical ideas at that speed.....personally, I'm not a good enough musician and I pretty much hear speed unless I really, really take the time to listen to it 



Maniacal said:


> Its just much harder for me. Its easy to get into the motion of 3nps sequences and just rip. But to actually sit on 1 string, play 16ths and accent every 8 at high tempos is so much harder. Especially with open strings just because its so much harder to control.
> 
> Every body is different of course, maybe you find it a lot easier. But for me, once it gets back 220 open strings become the biggest challenge. Which is why I spend most of my limited guitar time working on them.
> 
> ...



It was _definately _those string-skipping diminished arpeggios. 100% certain on that. There was one version where he allegedly hit 19.5ps but I think that the difference is attributable to WJ vs Other methods.


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## Yngtchie Blacksteen (Mar 10, 2009)

Maniacal said:


> Its just much harder for me. Its easy to get into the motion of 3nps sequences and just rip. But to actually sit on 1 string, play 16ths and accent every 8 at high tempos is so much harder. Especially with open strings just because its so much harder to control.
> 
> Every body is different of course, maybe you find it a lot easier. But for me, once it gets back 220 open strings become the biggest challenge. Which is why I spend most of my limited guitar time working on them.


And that's cool, everyone's different. I find it easier to pick fast on one string, which I tend to do in my videos, but it needn't be the same for everyone.



Maniacal said:


> Of course its enough. I just want to clarify HOW he played his 18 notes a second. I didnt insult him as a musician at any point, this was a discussion on picking speed and nothing else.


Not saying you insulted him, just that doing something like that is so far from what he was doing. He never even gave speed examples in his instructional videos, he just played an example slow, and then fast. As far as I know, he never actually sat and practised with a metronome, so it wouldn't have made sense for him to do things like Petrucci does, to name one example.


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## chrismgtis (Mar 11, 2009)

I personally hate guitarists that think speed means more than quality. Which is why I pretty much stay away from metal other than maybe some Metallica now and then. I'm "ok" with Megadeth. Though about as far as I go towards really liking anything "metal" is Alter Bridge, which isn't really metal persay. 

People like Mike Einziger (Incubus) I'm a big fan of. He doesn't do a whole lot requiring speed and hardly ever plays anything you would call a solo, except maybe back in the SCIENCE album days, but back then it wasn't so much of a solo as a really cool style of something or other.

Mark Tremonti just balances scale speed and excellent melodic riffs very well I think. The guy is amazing at creating those clean intro riffs. He has a pretty wide knowledge of music in general and not just that... songwriting too.


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 11, 2009)

chrismgtis said:


> I personally hate guitarists that think speed means more than quality. Which is why I pretty much stay away from metal other than maybe some Metallica now and then. I'm "ok" with Megadeth. Though about as far as I go towards really liking anything "metal" is Alter Bridge, which isn't really metal persay.
> 
> People like Mike Einziger (Incubus) I'm a big fan of. He doesn't do a whole lot requiring speed and hardly ever plays anything you would call a solo, except maybe back in the SCIENCE album days, but back then it wasn't so much of a solo as a really cool style of something or other.
> 
> Mark Tremonti just balances scale speed and excellent melodic riffs very well I think. The guy is amazing at creating those clean intro riffs. He has a pretty wide knowledge of music in general and not just that... songwriting too.



I don't think anyone's said that 'speed = quality' at any point in this thread...


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## Yngtchie Blacksteen (Mar 11, 2009)

Indeed, and that's not what it's about. It's purely about knowing who the fastest guitarist is, because a lot of people are genuinely curious about this.


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## ShadyDavey (Mar 11, 2009)

Its possibly easier to ask "Who's the fastest at "X" technique" simply because as noted, some people aren't as good at alternate picking, or sweeping etc....then probably include a category for "Fastest Overall" if the question is that pressing 

(I'll settle for liking some guitarists that also happen to be fast, getting into rankings might cause me to suddenly devolve into a teenager with ripped jeans and dodgy big hair...)


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## demolisher (Mar 11, 2009)

I agree that shawn lane or guthrie or someone else probably is the fastest but seeing as they never sat down and clocked it (why would they?) its irrelevant. I don't know about you guys but I skip strings as little as possible playing on one string mostly, its a bad habit and poor technique, but I write some very fast stuff on one string now.


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## Scar Symmetry (Mar 11, 2009)

when he was alive it probably was Lane. but now... Romeo?

it doesn't really matter.


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## ShadyDavey (Mar 11, 2009)

Picking, tapping or sweeping?

You're right, it doesn't matter


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## Metal Ken (Mar 11, 2009)

chrismgtis said:


> I personally hate guitarists that think speed means more than quality. Which is why I pretty much stay away from metal other than maybe some Metallica now and then.




Clearly, you havent heard a good chunk of doom/stoner style metal. the whole emphasis of that stuff is slow/midtempo groove. Shit like My Dying Bride, Pantheist, Skepticism, Whispering Gallery, Electric Wizard. Slow as hell. Heavy as hell. 

/derail.


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## chrismgtis (Mar 13, 2009)

distressed_romeo said:


> I don't think anyone's said that 'speed = quality' at any point in this thread...



I also never said they did.


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## Unknown Doodl3.2 (Mar 29, 2009)

^no, you blindly hinted at the fact that most metal guitarists are just concerned with speed. Which couldn't be more untrue. That goes without saying that it's totally irrelevant in this thread.

Anyway, I'm hoping someone can conform this for me. Someone once told me that John Mclaughlin (sp?) would warm up to a show by playing chromatics at 250-300bpm. Is this true? Sounds somewhat unrealistic to me.


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## ShadyDavey (Mar 30, 2009)

John McClaughlin was for a long time the King of Electric Speed Jazz and has been clocked at 16nps....._on an acoustic!! _16th notes at 250bpm is well within is ability to pick and I'd be very suprised if he couldn't go up to towards 300....his picking technique is just simply that although he does keep it in check a lot of the time (compare him to DiMeola or Lagrene to see what I mean - very restrained).


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## freepower (Apr 3, 2009)

> Anyway, I'm hoping someone can conform this for me. Someone once told me that John Mclaughlin (sp?) would warm up to a show by playing chromatics at 250-300bpm. Is this true? Sounds somewhat unrealistic to me.



Another unrealistic thing about him is he regularly broke "tri-nomes" - analogue metronomes that could keep track of three time sigs at once. Unfortunately, not the ones Johnny Mac wanted to try, and the gears and stuff inside them just gave up the ghost. 

True story.

No idea how fast he can play, but he's a bit... sloppy for me. It's always puzzled me that he can play PERFECTLY clean when he wants but often goes for a sloppier vibe. Confused the hell outa me.



ShadyDavey said:


> It was _definately _those string-skipping diminished arpeggios. 100&#37; certain on that. There was one version where he allegedly hit 19.5ps but I think that the difference is attributable to WJ vs Other methods.



WJ measured the 19.5, but doesn't point it out too often because it's 8 strokes alternate 1 stroke economy and therefor doesn't fit into his alternate picking list.

"Other methods" have him at 20.4.


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## ShadyDavey (Apr 3, 2009)

freepower said:


> Another unrealistic thing about him is he regularly broke "tri-nomes" - analogue metronomes that could keep track of three time sigs at once. Unfortunately, not the ones Johnny Mac wanted to try, and the gears and stuff inside them just gave up the ghost.
> 
> True story.
> 
> ...



 I think I'll stick with own personal measurement of "HOLY SHIT" fast and leave it at that. 

Interesting facts re: JM - I mean, I know he's blinding when he wants to be but I think in a musical way its actually more interesting when he gives a phrase some human character. That info about the metronomes was pretty awesome as well....they probably just heard him play and went into some mechanical fugue state


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## freepower (Apr 3, 2009)

The story's pretty awesome in context - "Secrets from the masters" book, JM interview...

IIRC, it goes something like, 


> I used to practice with Tri-nomes, which are like metronomes that can be set to three independent time signatures, but they kept breaking. One time I bought one and within an hour it was broken, and these are like $200 each, and that was just the last straw. Luckily I have a friend who's a clockmaker and he designed this metronome where there is a master tempo, a time signature polymetric to that, a second tempo which is as between 1% and 100% faster than the master tempo and then a polymeter relative to that. It hasn't broken since!



Eat your heart out Meshuggah.


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## ShadyDavey (Apr 4, 2009)

JM is the man, I can't believe he's so underated


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## Cheesebuiscut (May 6, 2009)

ShadyDavey said:


> I think I'll stick with own personal measurement of "HOLY SHIT"



 Holy shits pretty fast but I personally look for the 

"DAAAAAYYYUUUUUUUMMMMM"

players.


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