# I'm the chef/owner of an avant garde restaurant - AMA



## abandonist (Oct 19, 2012)

Ask Me Anything!

I'm the owner/executive chef of an avant garde restaurant in an abandoned Pizza Hut in Greenville, SC called The Owl. We use a lot of fancy pants ingredients that sound like science experiments (agar-agar, versawhip600k, sodium alginate, ultratex 3 and 8, soy lecithin, rotor-stator homogenizers, centrifuge, chamber vacuums, immersion circulators, etc...)

You can check out our facebook page (where we do most of our communicating with the world)here: http://www.facebook.com/OwlRestaurant

We're currently #1 in Greenville on Tripadvisor, have a 4 star rating on yelp, and a 75% on urbanspoon (urbanspoon tends to be the less educated diner, so a lot of that is from folks "not getting it". No one knows more about 'Modern Cooking' in the South than me.

I'm at your disposal for the next few days since I've been told to stay home with "a SCORCHING case of bronchitis" by the doctor.

Ask me anything you like! I'm bored!

I can demystify this stuff for you, provide technique help, give advice to anyone in the field, etc.


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## troyguitar (Oct 19, 2012)

I wouldn't even know where to begin, I'm so un-refined that I'd probably prefer the Pizza Hut


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## Overtone (Oct 19, 2012)

I liked pork belly before it was cool.


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## synrgy (Oct 19, 2012)

Perhaps you can help me understand something that's always bothered me a little bit.. It's tough to explain the thought, so please bear with me, here.. 

The older I get, the more appalled I become at typically over-sized American portions. That said, I feel like fine-dining very often goes entirely too far in the other direction, and seems to try to compensate for the lack of food with over-the-top artsy presentation, like these plates pulled from your Facebook:






That's supposed to be a salad? I looks like 2 bites. 





Please tell me that all 4 of those tiny plates are for 1 person?? 

The difference wouldn't bother me - necessarily - except that, running in tandem with the drop in portion size, seems to be an increase in price. I have a somewhat extensive background in the industry, but the entirety of my experience was in prototypical chain type places. Point being, I don't have any insight into the high-level kind of food you do.

I guess my question here is: How do those on the inside justify a price increase for a smaller portion? Is it the presentation we're paying for, or the staff wages, or is there just some simple notion that I'm missing altogether?

The thing is, that style of presentation has always struck me as pretentious, and I have a tendency to miss out on a veritable fuck-ton of presumably amazing food because of this hang-up of mine..


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## abandonist (Oct 19, 2012)

Both of the dishes in the pictures were from tasting menus. The first from a 6 course (there actually about 45 ingredients on there), and the second from a 7. I want you to have our tasting meal and leave feeling pleasantly full, not disgusting. The entirety of the meal would have been $40 and $60 respectively.

The presentation aspect is really my favorite part of cooking. That's where food blurs the line of art. It's essentially design work as well. 

Regarding prices, we source very high quality ingredients usually from within S carolina, N Carolna, and Georgie. Our meat is from independent ranchers, our produce isn't flown in from peru. There's some technique tax since that equipment isn't cheap. A chamber vac alone costs in excess of $3000. But using it I can collapse the cellular structure of watermelon, making it denser and sweeter to provide a taste experience you've never had before.

We operate on tapas-style menu. Everything is small plates meant to share around. We suggest everyone start by ordering 2. They're smaller portions, but definitely not 2 bites. Unless we do a luxury special like foie gras, in which case you don't really need more than 2-3 bites to be satisfied. "Always leave them wanting just a little more until the end of the meal."

We operate on a living wage system for all our employees. That means not paying minimum wage.

Essentially, you can dine at The Owl and get the best (and most forward thinking) food in town for under $30 with 3 plates. I think that's pretty reasonable for the quality we provide.


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## abandonist (Oct 19, 2012)

Overtone said:


> I liked pork belly before it was cool.



I mean, it's the south. We've got some belly on the menu.


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## jon66 (Oct 20, 2012)

While I may not be too educated in terms of what constitutes avant garde, I will say that I'm definitely one of those people who appreciates the sort of thing you're doing. 

There's this nicer restaurant in my city, though I'm not sure if it's avant garde or not. Every time my wife and I eat there and we mention it to my father-in-law, he says something like "Damn, 100 dollars for dinner? You guys got ripped off." Well in terms of just eating to survive, then yeah, I guess we could eat a packet of ramen noodles and called 'er a day. 

Compare it to going out to the movies. Two tickets, a popcorn/soda combo, etc and two hours later you're still out 50 bucks. Nobody says "Hey that was a waste, you could have stayed home and watched tv for free!" Yet for some reason, as soon as a meal enters into the mix, people get all butt-hurt.

It's dining. An experience. Quality ingredients. A night out. Savor it.

That said, if you're the type who'd rather just go to a buffet and eat till you burst, then that's fine too - your choice. But don't rain down on my (or the restaurant owner's) parade for offering something a little different. (btw, that's not directed at anybody in this thread, just a general little rant)

/endrant  Long and the short of it, best of luck to your restaurant OP! Hope you're feeling better soon.


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## synrgy (Oct 22, 2012)

I hate it when this happens. Sometimes I forget that my tone of voice doesn't come out in my writing, and don't proof-read enough before hitting that 'submit' button. I wasn't trying to offend, but do believe I've been misunderstood.

I'm the last guy to shy from spending good money on a good meal. I don't flinch or bat an eyelash at dropping $100 on a dinner for my lady and I if the food is worth it. It happens to be one of our favorite things to do together.

She's spent many years in restaurant kitchens, and she cooks like a champion. That said, this style of presentation was never part of her line of work, either, so I can't ask her about it, because she just doesn't know. We both frequent tapas style places (Jaleo is a local favorite) but again, the presentation style is always super-simple. I guess we're both just more into the 'keep it simple' style when we go looking for new places.

I was using photos from your place as an example (it was checking those photos out out which sparked the train of thought), not knowing they represented a tasting menu. I used them only to help illustrate the idea, and I thought that was going to be clear enough when I was putting them into the context of being single course entrees. I'm terribly sorry that wasn't more clear.

Anyway, understanding now that I was asking in a _general_ sense; not as it related to _your_ specific place of work: Surely, you _must_ know the kind of thing my post was alluding to? There must be a pariah or two in that corner of the industry..


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## abandonist (Oct 26, 2012)

Oh, no offense taken at all!

I have the same problem with tone and proofreading. I get off on tangents.

I totally understand what you're talking about. A little 2 bite fancy pants thing for $20, stacked up and everything _just so_. 

I think that's cool depending on the context. Often it comes across as souless and clinical to me in an expensive place. I've seen chefs reach into their cooks mise and break out a ruler to check the brunoise. That's unnecessary and hateful. As if your plate would be less delicious if the cube was a 1/16th of an inch bigger than the other. 

We try to roll a bit more abstract. There are one or two dishes I've been super picky about with my guys, but it's rare.


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## tbb529 (Oct 27, 2012)

Wow, all the food looks great! Also, I live in Columbia, next time I'm in Greenville I'll definitely have to stop by and check you guys out.


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## abandonist (Oct 27, 2012)

Please do, I'd love to meet someone from here!


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## median (Nov 7, 2012)

I watch a lot of Food Network stuff. "Diners, Drive-Ins, N Dives" is my fav. That said, I love good high quality food but I do agree with synrgy's sentiments regarding portion. I am 6'7 with a pretty big appetite. So I'm usually looking for big _and _good - which is why I usually stay away from said "gourmet" places. 

How are the overall portion sizes at your place (non-sampler)? Could you post some pics?


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## Danukenator (Nov 13, 2012)

I worked at a restaurant where we introduced a dish (we being the chefs not me lol) that had a really nice presentation. We had the usual salads but this one super fancy but priced the same. Damn, we sold so many we added it to the menu.

I think people appreciate "food art" more than they are willing to let on. Sure, there may be a premium but it's beautiful. I'd also be willing to be the presentation helps people enjoy the taste even more. Kind of a placebo effect going on.

Anyway, I approve.


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## abandonist (Nov 15, 2012)

median said:


> I watch a lot of Food Network stuff. "Diners, Drive-Ins, N Dives" is my fav. That said, I love good high quality food but I do agree with synrgy's sentiments regarding portion. I am 6'7 with a pretty big appetite. So I'm usually looking for big _and _good - which is why I usually stay away from said "gourmet" places.
> 
> How are the overall portion sizes at your place (non-sampler)? Could you post some pics?



Sorry I missed this!

I'd say our portion sizes are right in between appetizer and entree - depending on the dish in question. Some things are meant to be just a few bites (like foie gras), but others are pretty good sized (risotto). I'll never make my food so fussy that the average person can't afford it. Unless you're talking special events - those can be pricey sometimes. An example would be last night. We did an 8 course dinner for $115 that was strictly for 8 seats (only bar seats). I presented and explained each dish and chatted with the guests about the food, answering questions and cracking jokes while they ate. Those portions were smaller, but no one left feeling hungry, or that their money wasn't well spent. I was actually really nervous charging that much, but it's 1-on-1 with the chef, and the preparations were of exceptional quality. Here's a pic of of one dish attached. Beef w/ chanterelle vinegar, parmesan, and chlorophyll. Yes, chlorophyll - extracted from kale juice. It's a unique flavor and tastes, quite literally, of 'green'. It arrived as simply 4 slices of strip steak and was dressed in front of the guests. Picture a sketchy-looking bearded dude squirting green liquid out of a little beaker with a lab pipette onto your plate. 

In other news, Tom Colicchio's lawyer was in tonight and said his meal was one of the best he's ever had. Wants to get Tom in and share it with him. Bought out the entire next Tuesday at The Owl (the 8 seat thing) and was talking about flying people in for it! I didn't really know what to say. We've never had that kind of attention before. Sure, an article here and there, but Plane Flights?? I'm gonna have to make this next one even better - and I haven't started any planning yet. We'll see...


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## synrgy (Nov 15, 2012)

Congrats! I hope his colleagues enjoy it as much as he did! Sounds like you've got some great press on the way.


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## theoctopus (Nov 18, 2012)

This is the kind of food that got me into the industry. I have to be honest, though: the more that I worked with creating novel food forms, the less I appreciated it. After a handful of years in the industry, I ended up going right back to where I started: treating beautiful ingredients as simply as possible, to let their true nature shine. With that said, your food looks great, and I know how much fun it is to play with ingredients. I think that the last big "modern food" event that I worked had a menu that included items like weaner pig sous vide (done in a bathtub with an industrial immersion circulator unit), brussel sprout paper, hot ice cream (that melted as it cooled), so forth and so on.

My love for the science of food pushed me into getting a food chemistry degree, doing considerable work with a number of the ingredients and equipment you listed in your first post (a thermal immersion circulator was my best friend in the psychophysical sensory science lab, for example), along with many others, at an academic and industrial level. Sure was fun, and I do miss it. I even started teaching Food Chem to undergrads for the local food science program a couple years ago. Too bad med school sucked up all my free time and took me away from all of that.

Sounds like you nailed it with Tom's lawyer. I hope your restaurant blows up and you get all the good things that sound like they are coming to you. Hard work pays off.


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## iRaiseTheDead (Nov 18, 2012)

Dude, nice!


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## Hollowway (Nov 19, 2012)

Man, those dishes look awesome! I'm way the heck away from SC, but I would get that 8 person thing in a heart beat. That would be so cool to talk with you about what is in each dish. I wish more places did that.


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## abandonist (Nov 19, 2012)

theoctopus said:


> This is the kind of food that got me into the industry. I have to be honest, though: the more that I worked with creating novel food forms, the less I appreciated it. After a handful of years in the industry, I ended up going right back to where I started: treating beautiful ingredients as simply as possible, to let their true nature shine. With that said, your food looks great, and I know how much fun it is to play with ingredients. I think that the last big "modern food" event that I worked had a menu that included items like weaner pig sous vide (done in a bathtub with an industrial immersion circulator unit), brussel sprout paper, hot ice cream (that melted as it cooled), so forth and so on.
> 
> My love for the science of food pushed me into getting a food chemistry degree, doing considerable work with a number of the ingredients and equipment you listed in your first post (a thermal immersion circulator was my best friend in the psychophysical sensory science lab, for example), along with many others, at an academic and industrial level. Sure was fun, and I do miss it. I even started teaching Food Chem to undergrads for the local food science program a couple years ago. Too bad med school sucked up all my free time and took me away from all of that.
> 
> Sounds like you nailed it with Tom's lawyer. I hope your restaurant blows up and you get all the good things that sound like they are coming to you. Hard work pays off.



I'm actually quite similar. When we opened we went bananas with all the organic-chem stuff, and now I'm just using the knowledge to do things like the chlorophyll extraction and altered-viscosity preparations on sauces/juices. On that 8 person thing most of the plates had 5-6 ingredients max. 

I would like to approach the local tech college about doing a creativity in food class for their curriculum since all they learn is French French French. Then there's the hospice/hospital thing I want to try: working with nutritionists to create really nice food for people with swallowing/chewing disorders. Then the charity stuff, appearances at events... I'm fucking BUSY lately.


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## Origin (Nov 20, 2012)

I'm kinda pissed off that I'm not close enough to swing by.  This looks great.

In terms of eating I'm probably the most coldly utilitarian/price-based person I know other than buying seafood to fry up, but this stuff gives me an itch.

Looks like you're running a great restaurant (and replacing a shitty one ). Great AMA, seriously.  Reading it has been a pleasure. Keep it up haha


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## abandonist (Nov 27, 2012)

So this happened today. That's us on the cover.


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## ilyti (Dec 4, 2012)

I dunno about you guys but I'm jonesin' for some chlorophyll now...


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## abandonist (Jan 6, 2013)

Dallas from Nile and girlfriend were in for brunch earlier.

Growing up's kinda weird. I used to listen to their first few records all "wow," and now dude's at my place eating and chatting.


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## Nile (Jan 13, 2013)

Nile approves of Nile coming in.


You make some quality food from the looks of it and you are really going somewhere with it. I bet it tastes like amazing if that were an actual thing you could taste.


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## angus (Jan 13, 2013)

If you call yourself avant garde, what is your perspective and what are you bringing new into the conversation? 

I'm asking in all seriousness, as the most frequent thing I see with modernist restaurants is they get lost in the "scientistic" fascination with acting like chemists, get really excited about screwing with chemicals and textures and trying to be clever, and forget what they are really setting out to do and what their perspective is. It's not everyone, of course...but it definitely is becoming the majority, particularly in younger cooks.

It is exciting when done really, really well, though!

I'd love to hear about your perspective and approach. 



abandonist said:


> I'm actually quite similar. When we opened we went bananas with all the organic-chem stuff, and now I'm just using the knowledge to do things like the chlorophyll extraction and altered-viscosity preparations on sauces/juices.



Well, it isn't really organic chemistry, and chlorophyll extraction via the standard technique goes back to the 19th century!



abandonist said:


> No one knows more about 'Modern Cooking' in the South than me.



A hell of a claim with Atlanta in the south!


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## abandonist (Jan 16, 2013)

We definitely had to reign ourselves in with the 'space food' over the months. The public isn't ready for some things. 

There's more to it than just the food. It's philosophy behind how we treat our staff (no yelling), how we pay them (more than average), everyone has creative input. That said, our real advancements are by baby steps (we have to move slowly in our area. People are scared of us). Some it is in straight flavor combinations. Cauliflower puree, grapefruit juice, olive oil, fried cauliflower, shaved tops, and blue cheese. Not on your normal menu. We went to the VOC database (I don't have it, but a friend does) on that one after we made it and found some flavor association in sulphurs. One thing we're bringing to the conversation is people other than the well-heeled foodie having a crack at some of this stuff. Our most expensive option right now is a steak that costs $24. Our cheapest thing is $8. Fine dining for the working class. We look like a bunch of drugged out miscreants and that can get some hostile activity here in Greenville. So soe of it has to do with attitude, some with technique, some with combinations and memory association, psi ops on the customers to get a specific reaction. Plates of fire (not just a flambe), unusual/forgotten ingredients. There's something going on. We're not Moto, but we're trying our best for an abandoned pizza hut outside of a major food scene. Speaking of Moto, we did do tree bark and miracle fruit. Sensory dep dinners with a variety of criteria. Black out. Traded masks. Night vision goggles. Some in plating. I put stuff all over dishes, not just inside the lines - that's not new, but it's beyond the boundaries of Greenville. I was just voted one of the "Best Chefs in America" by some people putting out a book about chefs. You get put in if enough other chefs mention your name, then they call you for the interview. Article in Southern Living, Boston Globe, cover of 4 local rags. Number 1 on tripadvisor, 4.5 on yelp. We're doing _something _interesting.

I know it's not really organic chem, just fun with words.

I stand by my statement. Hugh Acheson is in my phone, Nate Allen is a buddy, Kevin Gilespie is a friend of a friend, etc. Sat Bains just sent me a signed copy of his new book. I'm in touch with Michael Carlson. We run an 18% food cost. That's almost avant garde in itself. Katie Button in Asheville would be the only one who I think might have more knowledge. Might.

Here's a copy of the "comfort" menu we're about to implement:

roasted vegetables - 8
many garnishes and flavors

fruit n cheese - 9
pear, parsnip, thyme, ricotta, cranberry

brefix - 8
pork belly, yolk ravioli, grape preserve

"chicken soup" - 10
smoked pasta, farm egg, pickled celery, toasted hay

bone marrow - 10
parsley salad, pickled shallot, toast

charcuterie plate - 12
boudain noir, apple, grilled radicchio, hazelnut vin

foie gras - 16
green apple, maple brûlée, speck

--

burger - 12
smoked mayo, cheddar, tomato jam, greens, potato wedge

duck breast - 16
kale, preserved lemon, raisin puree, yam

pomodoro - 14
linguini, tomato, parmesan foam, basil chip, hazelnut powder

fish selection - 18
lemongrass consomme, sambal

steak - 24
aged butter, brussels sprouts, foie, spiced mustard

Nothing that seems too interesting, but remember our place and time. And that the concept is comfort on this one. Again, most of out tech is behind the scenes.

We also have hand-down The Best Bartender in the City doing some real cool stuff with barrel ageing, fermentations and the such.


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## abandonist (Jan 16, 2013)

This one's pretty all around Out There.

The Owl's Photos | Facebook


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jan 16, 2013)

Thats really well priced. I think its actually more for a burger from dennys here lol


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