# A Bit of a Disappointing Kiesel NGD



## vignmachine (Nov 9, 2018)

So I had the opportunity to check out my recently delivered Kiesel custom and I was... a bit disappointed. 
Let me start out by saying that I am a long-time Kiesel customer; this was my fourth build from them. 
The guitar itself is honestly very nice looking, it's built well, and it plays well...but it fell a bit flat aesthetically, particularly from what I feel I ordered.

Specs:

Kiesel Zeus 6
Black Limba Neck w/ maple stripes 
Black Limba body
ebony fretboard
Kiesel Beryllium pickups
Satin finish
24.75' scale length

So backstory re: paint job:

I contacted Kiesel sales asking if they could do a paint job on a Zeus like the picture I've attached (See pics below). I was then contacted by Noble saying they could absolutely do that finish. 
I then spoke to Noble on the phone, wherein we discussed the logistics of the paint job. I specifically mentioned wanting the "lightness" of the colours in the reference pic, to which Noble agreed. He consulted with the paint department and ultimately said it could be done, and I was initially quoted $2400 for the build. A little while later, Noble e-mailed me stating that the paint department came up with a descriptor for the spec sheet, describing the paint job as being "aquaburst center", "transluscent purple", "california burst", and "think black line". I assumed (I think fairly) that the paint department felt they could get close to the aformentioned reference paint job with the above descriptors. I strongly believe Noble and I were on the same page as it relates to the paint job, and he was helpful in getting the order through with the reference image in mind. He also shaved off a few hundred from the initial quote after consulting with the paint department.

Fast forward a couple months, and my Zeus build was posted as a pic of the day on the Kiesel page. I honestly didn't even recognize it as my build when I saw it, and only realized it was mine when I got the shipping e-mail a day later. I was immediately pretty disappointed. To me, the guitar looked nothing like the reference picture.

I e-mailed Joe at customer service to explain the situation. He responded by stating that:

"There is not a specific type of “uniformity” with burst style finishes, as the final outcome of the finish will depend on the type of wood that is used underneath the paint. Darker and denser woods have a tendency to make the paint finishes come out darker whereas lighter woods can make certain colors pop and appear more vibrant. The burst style finishes are applied exactly the same way on every order that requests a burst finish, but the final look will vary depending on the wood top or the wood on the body. Submitting a picture for reference only gives us a general idea of what you’re looking for, but it does not mean that we will match the photo exactly, as we charge a $200.00 fee for photo matching a paint finish. As it stands now, this build is a no 10-day trial, no exchange, no refund so all sales are final in these cases."

I responded by reiterating what I've said in this post - that I specifically requested a paint job like the reference image; that it was discussed at length with Noble - particularly the "lightness" of the reference paint job; and that I was told that the paint department was consulted with the reference image. Joe responded by saying that "upper management" (aka Jeff) is holding firm that it was built according to the spec sheet. 
I guess the most egregious thing to me is that - even going by the spec sheet verbatim - the "Black line" at the edge of the guitar that was specifically marked on the sheet as to be "thin"...is quite thick, to where the purple of the guitar is virtually non-existent. The purple, to me, is a big part of what was good looking about the reference guitar. Realistically, it would have been better to just omit the black line entirely. 

I recognize that I may be over-reacting a bit to the paint job. The guitar itself is really nice, plays beautifully, and looks good. It is also, arguably, a purple/blue/black guitar like the reference image. I just can't help but feel a little bummed about the experience given everything that went on. 

While I personally will not be ordering from Kiesel anymore, moreso just given my experience with customer service, I still think their guitars are built well and, if you order a paint job that has already been done by Kiesel and get a good idea of how the paint job will look ahead of time, you'll get a nice guitar. Generally it seems it's just wise to stay away from asking Kiesel to do reference images or photo matches. I will also add that in my previous 3 experiences, everything went smoothly and I was a happy customer. 

I will happily send anyone the e-mail exchanges (from the time of the inquiry of the paint job onward) as well as the spec sheet if you're curious - just PM me. 


Thanks for reading!


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## goobaba (Nov 9, 2018)

I would say that you received a black burst edge, not a "thin black line." So in that case, the guitar was not "built to spec." For what it's worth, it's still a pretty good looking guitar.


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## devastone (Nov 9, 2018)

It is a nice looking guitar, but you really wanted the purple to be the outside burst color, and I agree, looking at the reference picture, that is a very different look.


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## KnightBrolaire (Nov 9, 2018)

i know it's not what you wanted OP, but that guitar is gorgeous. shame that kiesel still can't photomatch worth a damn.


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## narad (Nov 9, 2018)

I've been in your shoes (not with Kiesel) and recognize that it's really how you feel that's important, but that's gotta be one of my favorite Kiesels ever. Think I'm more used to Kiesel making things too vibrant / bursted, not subdued as this one is.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 9, 2018)

Going the photo-match route has _always_ been a heck of a gamble. They only ever matched them like 1/5th of the time from what I saw over many years, but most of the time the outcome was bearable. 

Not to mention they used to still do returns, at least for some of the more loyal customers or those who made a stink on something they really botched. 

Those days are long gone though.

Sorry this didn't work out dude.


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## FitRocker33 (Nov 9, 2018)

Dude honestly I think I like your guitar better than the reference pic. I agree it’s not a thin black line but it’s pretty damn nice. Not my guitar tho, and just my opinion.


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## Drew (Nov 9, 2018)

I'm no Kiesel fan, and their customer service alone is reason enough for me never to order one, but I will say your top looks a heck of a lot better than the Les Paul's burst you attached, for whatever it's worth.


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## spudmunkey (Nov 9, 2018)

A beautiful guitar for sure. A bummer for sure that it didn't meat expectations.

A couple notes. And I know this is going to come across that i'm somehow defending Kiesel specifically, but with these specific notes, I feel like any other guitar company would run into the same issues with trying to match how the finish looks in that photo onto a IRL Zeus-type model...and this doesn't have anything to do with their customer service, your initial interactions or their response...this is specifcally technicall aspects of the construction and finishing. I'm hoping this comes across as merely my own internal monologue when looking at the original photo and the Zeus, and not some sort of lecture. With anything custom (or, hell...even "off the rack" stuff), your opinion has merit if it didn't come out like you envisioned, even though you feel you were clear in your wishes. If in the end they don't agree to loosen their response, I genuinely hope that it is less of a "every time I look at it i feel disappointed" and is more like one of those, "It wasn't exactly how I pictured it, but I have been playing it for the last week, and even if they offered to re-build it, I've fallen in love with how it plays/sounds/feels/looks, and couldn't send it back."

That CS6 in real life doesn't even look like it does in that photo. That other guitar is being blasted by a close-up camera flash, which brightens up the lighter colors in the center, including where the black is overlapping the purple. The camera flash is letting the purple shine through the burst's softer edge, so that the only part that looks black is where the paint finally gets totally opaque at the very very edge. As far as how bright and vibrant the colors are in the middle, There's no finish they could apply to another guitar that would make it that vibrant, and still have visible wood grain under it. The only way to get a color as bright as in that camera-flash photo would be with a brightly colored paint added to the transparent paint, making the finish less clear, and the grain underneath less visible. A transparent finish automatically darkens the color of the wood...so the only way it can be as bright or brighter in a photo, is to introduce light, or to add a white paint to the trans color to get it to reflect more light, which would obscure the wood figuring underneath.

I'd be curious to see what your guitar looks like photographed at the same distance from the camera, at the same angle, in a similarly dimly lit evening in the living room, with a camera flash pointed right at it, to see if it's any closer.

The zeus body itself is also partially to "blame".

The body is much smaller than the CS6. So if their "thin burst" is 1" wide, it'll naturally look proportionally narrower on the CS than on the much smaller Zeus. For example, a size 8 shoe on a 7ft tall man would look very small, but put that same size 8 shoe on a baby, and it you could put 1/2 the baby inside it.

Next is the beveled top, which means that the available area for the burst is shrunk even more even compared to the already smaller body since the top no longer covers the whole body, making the standard "thin burst" an even larger percentage of the overall finished area. So how you've cut the legs off that baby, making the shoes seem even larger in comparison. OK, I think I'll stop with the baby/shoe metaphor...

The final aspect that's zeus-specific is the visible beveled edge of the top, which is adding width to the burst. The way they do the finishes on the bevels is that the bevel itself isn't really considered part of the "top". However the finish does end on the edge of the flat top, they extend that over the bevel. you can see this most clearly on beveled models that have the body also painted to match the top. On an aries, it seems like 1/2 of the body is covered by the wide burst edge on the bass side. So let's say the 1" "thin burst" is measured from the edge of the flat top area, and then there's an additional 5/8'-3/4" added width due to the beveled thickness on the bass side. If you look at the treble side, or cover up the beveled edge of the top on the bass side, to my eye that's a fairly thin burst, IMO. Then when you add in the extra thickness of the bevel to the bass side, it makes it seem wider. Very very early on in the Aries's life, they showed a body they did where the perimeter burst actually followed the perimeter of the body, and not the top. If i remember right, it was a tobacco burst (trans yellow, to opaque black). I can't seem to find the photo, but remember it looked odd. I'm not saying how they actually do it is necessarily a perfect solution for bursts on an asymmetrically-beveled body, but it's better than how i remember that looking.



For what it's worth, here's the photoshop mock-up that customer sent in for his CS6:





From the forum:


> So, I finally got my CS6 and, man, I sure am glad they took their time. It came out wonderful, they really used the photoshop pic I sent them.





> This one shows the true colors better. The other pics make the guitar look much brighter than it really is. Its really a deep, saturated finish.


 (and note that it's still a bright camera flash)





Here's his NGD thread:
http://www.kieselguitarsbbs.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=15073


I could be wrong, but here's what I think MAY have happened. They listenned to your request about the lightness in the middle. They took that to mean that you wanted to make sure that there was plenty of the light aqua in the middle, with the purple and black being pushed out from the center. on many of their smaller-bodied guitars with multiple-colored bursts, the middle can get pretty small, so I bet they think they really did listen to you by giving you lots of the aqua. Then, the thin burst is still thick compared to the very small top area since it's wider in proportion making the black seem wide, leaving very little room for purple.

Was i in the factory? Absolutely not. Am i being rational to a fault (meaning trying to find a rational explanation even when there's no real proof)? Perhaps.

*Do i still think your guitar looks killer? Abso-fucking-lutely, and one of my favorite Zeus builds. The quilt has great figuring, and that's a awesome piece of black limba, what with those defined stripes in it (sometimes it can look a little muddy/uniformly brown). Nice with the silver pickups, too. Too cool.*


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## Millul (Nov 9, 2018)

Gotta agree with the comments above - your guitar looks amazing, and, to me, way better than what the sample you sent them.
Even the natural bevel fits the build, and for my tastes, it's pretty much a first.

Sorry it's not what you wanted, being disappointed about a new build sucks big time (been there).


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## narad (Nov 9, 2018)

Feel like the Kiesel defense is misguided:

a.) If you can't recreate the finish, don't accept the order.

b.) I have seen Kiesels that are approximately that bright, and where the brightness isn't a consequence of camera flash, etc.


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## Mathemagician (Nov 9, 2018)

Your’s is the one with the speed scoop correct? I personally think that looks “better” but my opinion doesn’t mean much. They did not match the purple as the burst the way you asked and showed them. Sucks that they keep over-estimating their abilities.


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## Cynicanal (Nov 9, 2018)

That looks like a standard Nightburst + blackburst edge to my eye. If so, it's kind of ridiculous that they'd apply a standard finish but charge you for the photomatch and give you an OP 50 No Return on top of it.


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## A-Branger (Nov 9, 2018)

first of all, beautiful finish and guitar bro

second sorry for your almost perfect guitar

To be fair, they did match the colors. The hue of the purple if different to your reference pic, but honestly I like better the one they used in yours. Plus it seems to be the correct hue once you see the other pics from the other build..?.. maybe they pulll up the old files and findout the colors they used on that old build

but they did missed the amrk on the black burst. It should ahve been a thin small black burst, similar to waht PRS does all the time, instead they did the full blast burst.... also by having the edges (binding) part of the top in full black it makes the burst seems even bigger. So that might also be the main reason why this looks "wrong".... Try to visualize the guitar without the bevel edges, jsut the flat top and see the burst is not that big.... it could still be smaller tho, but its not that big...... also a small body guitar makes it seem the burst is bigger too

still awesome colors.


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## Lord Voldemort (Nov 9, 2018)

Whew, that Zeus is stunning. Good Lord. 

Bummer that they couldn't match exactly what you wanted though, those two guitars sincerely look almost nothing alike, and that's coming from someone that wrote a small novel defending Kiesel a week or so ago.


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## spudmunkey (Nov 9, 2018)

A-Branger said:


> but they did missed the amrk on the black burst.



I would still be definitely interested to see vignmachine guitar with a brighter flash. I mean...these two photos of are of the exact same guitar, and the one in the sunshine has its purple lit up so much it's completely overpowering the blackburst, which is clearly visible in the lower light photo:


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## Randy (Nov 9, 2018)

2018's photomatch is 2016's option 50.


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## Cynicanal (Nov 9, 2018)

Why am I in your quote when I didn't say that?


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## makecamera (Nov 9, 2018)

That sucks that you didn't get what you asked for. I think they could have at least acknowledged that they didn't get it close enough and refund you the photo match cost. That said, it's the best looking Zeus I've seen to date.

You mentioned that you were quoted $2400 for the build and they later shaved off "a few hundred". Do you mind me asking what the final price was?


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## spudmunkey (Nov 9, 2018)

Cynicanal said:


> Why am I in your quote when I didn't say that?



Sorry, I mistakenly double-quoted, and edited out the wrong name. Corrected.


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## vignmachine (Nov 10, 2018)

makecamera said:


> That sucks that you didn't get what you asked for. I think they could have at least acknowledged that they didn't get it close enough and refund you the photo match cost. That said, it's the best looking Zeus I've seen to date.
> 
> You mentioned that you were quoted $2400 for the build and they later shaved off "a few hundred". Do you mind me asking what the final price was?



Sorry I was mistaken - I was quoted at just over 2200, it came to $2024 in the end.


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## vignmachine (Nov 10, 2018)

Thanks everyone for all of your comments. Honestly I really appreciate the feedback and varying opinions.
For those who have opined that the hue and colouring is the same - which I don't necessarily agree with - even if we accepted that argument, the blackburst overpowering the purple to where it is only marginally visible is enough of a difference to alter the aesthetic of the paint completely. When I was speaking to the Kiesel sales rep, I didn't even mention the black - I actually asked for the blue and purple combo, and the sales rep pointed out the thin black line makes for a good accentuating feature.
I have attached a photo with the flash on my phone on taken in a fairly well-lit room, at a similar angle as the reference photo. While I respect @spudmunkey 's opinion, I honestly would have been far more satisfied had this Zeus turned out like the CS6 NGD thread he referenced. To me, the purple is really a focal point of that paint job and I love how it plays with the blue. That's what I was after.

I also agree that it is an absolutely beautiful guitar. It is very nice looking. But to me, it's like when you're craving a Big Mac, so you got to McD's and order one, only for it to end up being a Double Quarter Pounder. You got an arguably a superior burger, but man, you had your mind set on that Big Mac.

And, honestly, as @makecamera noted - some acknowledgement that the blackburst was a clear mistake would have gone a long way. I didn't ask for a refinish or to send it back. Just admit you messed up and give me some friggin Arby's coupons or something. Instead, I got (what seems to be) typical Kiesel boilerplate that they throw up when their finish does not meet customer expectation. I just felt very unheard as a loyal and long-time customer and it sucked. Hell, even a "hey man we're really sorry you're not happy with your finish. Unfortunately, blah blah blah"... would have been preferable. It was just evident to me that it was a defensive tone at the outset.

Though again, I'm always open to accepting that I'm over-reacting. I am keeping the guitar and am enjoying playing it. It is just not what I had envisioned.




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## Ziricote (Nov 10, 2018)

Too much black but put your guitar outside in sun and take pics please. Its will look closer top what you want. I want see this pics brighter


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## fps (Nov 10, 2018)

Oh my god, your guitar is absolutely stunning. I'm so sorry it's not exactly what you wanted, but it is an incredibly beautiful thing.


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## noise in my mind (Nov 10, 2018)

Looks better than what you wanted.


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## Joel (Nov 10, 2018)

Yeah, I’m sorry you didn’t get what you wanted. But I actually this this looks way better than the picture you sent them. In my opinion of course.


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## A-Branger (Nov 10, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> I would still be definitely interested to see vignmachine guitar with a brighter flash. I mean...these two photos of are of the exact same guitar, and the one in the sunshine has its purple lit up so much it's completely overpowering the blackburst, which is clearly visible in the lower light photo:



the problem is the size of the black burst not the solid/translucid part of it

avoid seeing the binding part of the zeus, so focus on the top flat part of the guitar. See how far the black goes, compared with how thin the black goes in that single cut. Similar to what PRS does, that not many people actually realize. They do a very tinny small burst on the edges of the guitar (not necessary black, usually a darker version of the top) which makes the top to look better more focused, which is what they should ahve had in here, instead they did a burst burst, which killed the purple in the process.


also for the OP, I do actualyl like your hue of purple better tho, (a more blu-ish hue), but if you see the refference pics of that single cut, you see the purple "purple", then on the edge burst of it (when it blends with the aqua) thats when it goes into a more "dark-blue/purple" before go into full aqua (maybe its the blends of the two colors)... and I fully bet taht your guitar is the same case, problem is the black "thin" line end up being sprayed as a burst, so basically they sprayed over the purple you wanted, only leaving the blue-ish one visible

....... or I could be wrong and they did indeed used a different hue of purple


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## prlgmnr (Nov 10, 2018)

I guess they just had one of those stopped clock moments at Kiesel Towers.

Accidentally making something that looks good: Option 50


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## jephjacques (Nov 10, 2018)

It looks like the black burst is indeed thicker but IMO it's partly an optical effect caused by the solid black bevels. Which isn't to say they did a good job matching the finish you wanted- they didn't and they're being shitty about it- but also I don't think there's a great way to pull off that same effect on a flat topped guitar with huge bevels. (of course, if they gave a damn, they might have talked to you about this instead of just taking your money)


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## yellowv (Nov 10, 2018)

Yet another case of Kiesel saying they can do a photo match and not even coming close. That said in this case it actually looks better.


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## Jonathan20022 (Nov 10, 2018)

This is what I mean when people mention all of their good experiences. It doesn't matter if you've thrown 5 figures at Jeff and his company. The second you butt heads and disagree on something, you're SOL. That's the problem, people who have run into problems have had fairly minor compromises they can live with. It's not about that, it's the worst case scenario that matters where you're truly fucked, and Jeff will leave you with a few options that you might not want to or be willing to take. Then you have to make the choice to walk away with your tail between your legs and the ability to give him more of your money. Or get your money back and also turn your back on the company. Thankfully this isn't damage or something that is functionally wrong with your guitar.


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## lewis (Nov 10, 2018)

Whether it wasnt what you intially wanted or not, that Zeus is fucking stunning OP.

Congrats on that. Its the nicest kiesel ive seen in some time and in its own right its a stunner.

Its not helped my GAS for some Headless Kiesels in not going to lie.


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## AdenM (Nov 10, 2018)

Just wanted to chime in and also commend you on the beautiful guitar. Honestly though, for a long time customer, this should be a no brainer for Keisel. It really isn't that hard for them to refinish this, esp. to keep you coming back. They obviously gave you a black burst when that wasn't what you asked for, and I understand your disappointment. Jeff has no business sense, it seems like, especially for a 4x customer. Are you going to keep coming back to them after this?


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## Zado (Nov 10, 2018)

yellowv said:


> Yet another case of Kiesel saying they can do a photo match and not even coming close. That said in this case it actually looks better.


Nut they CAN do a photomatch, you just need to throw money at them


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## bracky (Nov 10, 2018)

It looks awesome to me and close given the underlying woods are different.


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## lewis (Nov 10, 2018)

AdenM said:


> Just wanted to chime in and also commend you on the beautiful guitar. Honestly though, for a long time customer, this should be a no brainer for Keisel. It really isn't that hard for them to refinish this, esp. to keep you coming back. They obviously gave you a black burst when that wasn't what you asked for, and I understand your disappointment. Jeff has no business sense, it seems like, especially for a 4x customer. Are you going to keep coming back to them after this?


Jeff is a complete twat lets not make no bones about it.
Its obvious too just watching how he is on the Kiesel streams let alone all the customers he regularly screws even IF they have spent thousands of dollars on his business.


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## lewis (Nov 10, 2018)

@vignmachine 

so something like this instead? -


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## Dumple Stilzkin (Nov 10, 2018)

It does look very nice, I think it will grow on you. Try taking it outside for some well lit pictures. It should help you see more of the awesomeness.


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## pondman (Nov 10, 2018)

That finish looks nothing like the original sample photo you sent, I'd be totally pissed off with that end result.
I still don't get the bevel thing.


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## Slaeyer (Nov 10, 2018)

pondman said:


> That finish looks nothing like the original sample photo you sent, I'd be totally pissed off with that end result.



Was thinking the same... The result is nothing close to what you asked for.


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## technomancer (Nov 10, 2018)

Black != Purple and that edge is clearly a wide black burst over a thin purple before the transition to blue.

Queue Jeff making passive aggressive comments about people whining online about their amazing work in his next live stream since you dared to post about this...


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## crankyrayhanky (Nov 10, 2018)

pondman said:


> That finish looks nothing like the original sample photo you sent, I'd be totally pissed off with that end result.
> I still don't get the bevel thing.


That mistake in the OP actually looks cool, but I generally agree- the bevel makes the guitar look tiny. That being said, 2 years ago I saw someone get the reverse color on a bevel; I loved it and got one. I think this reverse should be the norm, not the exception 






I want to get another Kiesel, but stories like this are endless and really a Gas killer. Dopey customer service


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## technomancer (Nov 10, 2018)

I should also say I do think the guitar looks awesome, it's just not what was ordered.


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## vignmachine (Nov 10, 2018)

After a few days with the guitar, I'm generally pretty happy with the build. No sharp frets, no paint imperfections that I can see, neck is great.

The only thing is that the pickups were installed slightly crooked? I don't think I've ever seen that in my life (done unintentionally) but whatever. Not a huge deal in the grand scheme just kind of a detail thing you wouldn't expect...


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## Seabeast2000 (Nov 10, 2018)

Congrats


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## spudmunkey (Nov 11, 2018)

vignmachine said:


> After a few days with the guitar, I'm generally pretty happy with the build. No sharp frets, no paint imperfections that I can see, neck is great.
> 
> The only thing is that the pickups were installed slightly crooked? I don't think I've ever seen that in my life (done unintentionally) but whatever. Not a huge deal in the grand scheme just kind of a detail thing you wouldn't expect...



I have had that happen to several guitars that had Direct mounted humbuckers. The screw that holds them to the body isn't embedded very deeply into body wood, and then it sticks out quite a bit. With the guitar in a case, if the case is bumped hard in one direction, or maybe even ddropped from just a few inches, I've found that direct-mount pickups are more easily knocked a bit out of whack, because the leverage on the screw is enough to knock it out of alignment. Usually just pushing it back his enough to fix it.


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## diagrammatiks (Nov 11, 2018)

Working on some software development and design for a while...I realized that the color pallettes for monitors and phones can be all over the place. You don’t need a verbal comfirmation. You need a mock-up of what they think you are talking about. I’ve got 3 iPhone generations here and none of them have the same brightness and yellow temperature. 

Also I think that guitar came out so much better then your reference photo. I know it’s all personal preference but I puked when I saw that reference photo. 

But still not what you ordered.


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## vignmachine (Nov 11, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> I have had that happen to several guitars that had Direct mounted humbuckers. The screw that holds them to the body isn't embedded very deeply into body wood, and then it sticks out quite a bit. With the guitar in a case, if the case is bumped hard in one direction, or maybe even ddropped from just a few inches, I've found that direct-mount pickups are more easily knocked a bit out of whack, because the leverage on the screw is enough to knock it out of alignment. Usually just pushing it back his enough to fix it.



The more you know! I had just never seen it personally. I haven't been able to get them straight yet but I'll keep trying. thanks for the info!


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## MetalHead40 (Nov 12, 2018)

I'd have taken a guitar that was not exactly what I envisioned aesthetically as opposed to the unplayable P.O.S. they sent me. My customer service experience with them was abysmal, shameful, and the most unprofessional I've ever encountered.


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## vignmachine (Nov 12, 2018)

MetalHead40 said:


> I'd have taken a guitar that was not exactly what I envisioned aesthetically as opposed to the unplayable P.O.S. they sent me. My customer service experience with them was abysmal, shameful, and the most unprofessional I've ever encountered.



Ah man I'm sorry to hear that. 
Have you made a post about it? Curious about your experience (particularly dealing with customer service)


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## Hollowway (Nov 12, 2018)

I also think they missed the boat on that completely. Not as bad as that cloud burst from a few years ago, but still a miss. I think at this point it’s clear that they cannot realistically photo match, and they will not state that, and instead make up stuff to explain away the shortcoming. I’ve asked for photo matches from other luthiers before, which fell short, but they were generally honest and up front about it, and in the end I accepted it as their legitimate beat try. I’ve said before, and I’ll again say here, Jeff’s attitude is what is ruining these experiences. His belief that he can do no wrong is an issue, and it drives people away. Had he said, “ah, sorry man. We tried, but it’s just hard to do, and I don’t know that I could get it closer,” I’d bet that you’d feel a lot better about yourself.

Have you seen that cloud burst build from a few years ago? That was a disaster of customer service. At least yours looks cool, even if different.

Edit: Here’s the cloudburst one: 
http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/...omatch-gone-wrong-final-update-5-3-16.309923/


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## Soya (Nov 12, 2018)

vignmachine said:


> Ah man I'm sorry to hear that.
> Have you made a post about it? Curious about your experience (particularly dealing with customer service)


Why yes, I believe the largest Kiesel complaint thread on the internet.


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## laxu (Nov 12, 2018)

pondman said:


> That finish looks nothing like the original sample photo you sent, I'd be totally pissed off with that end result.
> I still don't get the bevel thing.



The bevel makes the guitar very comfortable, better than something with a forearm contour. Usually not seen but there is similar beveling at the back too so it makes that edge of the guitar slim. I am not fond of the Zeus and Osiris designs. Out of all the beveled guitars that started popping up from various manufacturers, I still think the Kiesel Aries looks the best.

I agree the finish is not as requested. The black burst seems like it's the thick one that they usually do so I would not be surprised if they missed the "thin" part. That said, purple can be difficult to photograph so OP could post how the guitar looks in better lighting (either in direct sunlight or with stronger lightsources). In any case the finish is not a disaster so if OP is not happy with it, it should be easy to sell.

With Kiesel custom finishes always seem to be a gamble. I provided them with a mockup of what I wanted and they matched it quite exactly but this was using their standard colors, only asked them to choose a darker red piece of mahogany.


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## Albake21 (Nov 12, 2018)

They definitely dropped the ball on the black part of the burst, no doubt about it. I think I have said this 10+ on the forum already, but I guess I have to repeat myself weekly. DO NOT GET CUSTOM FINISHES OR OPTIONS FROM KIESEL. You would think people would figure this out by know, especially of this if your fourth build with them. I love Kiesel guitars, but even I know they are shit at custom non standard option work.

Now with that out of the way, your Zues is absolutely stunning..... I'm not even being dramatic, that thing is fucking gorgeous! So while i does suck they didn't get the finish correct, and you have every right to be pissed at them, at the very least that finish is still incredible and I'd be very happy with it even with it being incorrect.


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## MetalHead40 (Nov 12, 2018)

vignmachine said:


> Ah man I'm sorry to hear that.
> Have you made a post about it? Curious about your experience (particularly dealing with customer service)



As Soya here stated; Yes. I haven't looked at it in quite some time, but last I looked at that thread it was just way off in left field. The first few pages were relative to the issue though and I believe there were a few people that came out and said they had similar horrible experiences.


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## Jeff (Nov 12, 2018)

lewis said:


> Jeff is a complete twat lets not make no bones about it.
> Its obvious too just watching how he is on the Kiesel streams let alone all the customers he regularly screws even IF they have spent thousands of dollars on his business.



I agree. They make some killer looking guitars at a reasonable price, but like Dave Friedman, the way he comes across makes me not want to buy anything from him.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Nov 12, 2018)

vignmachine said:


> And, honestly, as @makecamera noted - some acknowledgement that the blackburst was a clear mistake would have gone a long way. I didn't ask for a refinish or to send it back. Just admit you messed up and give me some friggin Arby's coupons or something. Instead, I got (what seems to be) typical Kiesel boilerplate that they throw up when their finish does not meet customer expectation. I just felt very unheard as a loyal and long-time customer and it sucked. Hell, even a "hey man we're really sorry you're not happy with your finish. Unfortunately, blah blah blah"... would have been preferable. It was just evident to me that it was a defensive tone at the outset.
> 
> Though again, I'm always open to accepting that I'm over-reacting. I am keeping the guitar and am enjoying playing it. It is just not what I had envisioned.
> 
> ...



I think this just seems like a classic case of different people interpreting the same words to mean different things. With multiple people involved in something like this, it's easy for different interpretations to overlap each other. So while Noble probably thought 100% he was getting you what you wanted, whoever did the finish 100% thought he was getting you wanted, and you thought they knew exactly what you wanted, we got...this. Granted, like many others, I still think it's a bitchin' finish (I can't stand the Zeus shape personally, but that finish looks really good), but if it's not what you wanted, well....that's already been covered.

At the very least you got a well-playing guitar with nothing _functionally_ wrong with it; which is really good, because it could have been much, much worse. At the bare minimum if you decide one day you just don't gel with it, you shouldn't have a hard time selling it.

The lack of customer *support* is a big issue for them. CS isn't always just about getting the customer what they want when they call about something, you're supposed to _*support*_ them. If they aren't happy, you sympathize, even if there's nothing you can do. Provided you weren't rude or a dick (which sounds extremely unlikely given your tone in this thread), I just don't understand why they can't empathize with a dissatisfied client.

Which kind of makes me think Kiesel should just not accept photomatches. It's a bad business call imo- they leave themselves open to too much criticism. If you name the service _*photo match*_ then people are going to expect an exact 1:1 replica, and that's got to be extremely difficult to do consistently, no matter how good their paint guys are; they're going to run into tons of situations like this. It's bad for everyone involved and they should really stop offering it; they have enough really good in-house finishes that they know how to do consistently that I don't think they *really* need to offer this.


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## Drew (Nov 12, 2018)

vignmachine said:


> Sorry I was mistaken - I was quoted at just over 2200, it came to $2024 in the end.


...so, almost exactly the $200 "photo match" option cost?

Do you have a spec sheet, for the original quote AND for the final order? If so, that's a pretty easy way to confirm this.

To ME, my best guess on what happened here was it was a matter of signals getting crossed, and the finishing guys looked at the picture you sent, and said "ok, so this is a burst we've done before, and we can save this guy a couple hundred bucks if we drop the "photo match" option and just describe the colors used as a normal custom burst request," and when that was communicated back to you by your rep, he just didn't clearly explain that they thought they could get you the results you wanted WITHOUT a "photo match" option, thus saving you money. Whereas, for you, what attracted you to that picture wasn't the colors, but rather specific ways they were applied and how they looked in that _particular_picture.

Does that sound about right? At least, at a minimum, that "photo match" was NOT an option you were charged for?


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## vignmachine (Nov 12, 2018)

Drew said:


> ...so, almost exactly the $200 "photo match" option cost?
> 
> Do you have a spec sheet, for the original quote AND for the final order? If so, that's a pretty easy way to confirm this.
> 
> ...




Yes, that's correct (I think), and in part why I have a lot of time for Noble. I don't have a spec sheet for the initial quote, it was provided over the phone with the caveat that the final amount would be cemented later. I believe it was recognized that the reference pic was a Kiesel build, and so he clarified with the paint department that it could be done similarly without charging me the extra fee. However, you're correct in that none of this was explained or relayed to me, so I can't say with certainty.

Really- he got it right on the spec sheet. Had it been followed, the guitar would have been a lot closer to the reference.


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## Drew (Nov 12, 2018)

vignmachine said:


> Really- he got it right on the spec sheet. Had it been followed, the guitar would have been a lot closer to the reference.


Idunno - to me, the guitar in your picture pretty much looks exactly like this: 



vignmachine said:


> A little while later, Noble e-mailed me stating that the paint department came up with a descriptor for the spec sheet, describing the paint job as being "aquaburst center", "transluscent purple", "california burst", and "think black line".



At least, if someone gave you that description with no other information, and they then produced your guitar, it would be awfully tough to tell them they'd made a mistake. 

At the end of the day, an unsatisfied customer is an unsatisfied customer... but this seems like a communication issue coupled with poor follow-up customer service (and again, I refuse to touch anything with Kiesel on the headstock because these stories about abysmal post-sale customer service are so common), rather than anything wrong with the top of the guitar, relative to the description that went in with the order. To me, anyway.


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## vignmachine (Nov 12, 2018)

Drew said:


> Idunno - to me, the guitar in your picture pretty much looks exactly like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I respectfully disagree. Again, a key component of the original paint job is the prominence of the purple. The black line in the reference is negligible, whereas it completely overtakes the purple in the Zeus. "Thin black line". 
Furthermore, if I'm telling you I want the paint to look like X, and you make the call that you can do it by doing Y, it's not really on me that the way you did it didn't work out. If it was a matter of being charged the extra $200 but to get the specific paint job I wanted, I obviously would have paid the extra charge - particularly since I OK'd the initial quote, anyway.

I think I was rational in placing trust that the descriptor was sufficient. I'm not a builder or a painter, so I submitted the photo and relied on their expertise. I think that's fair.


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## vignmachine (Nov 12, 2018)

Drew said:


> Idunno - to me, the guitar in your picture pretty much looks exactly like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And...as I've mentioned, had customer service been even marginally sympathetic, this thread would likely not exist. Everyone makes mistakes, every company has disagreements with their customer base, there are always miscommunications that exist. It's how you deal with it that, to me, is important.


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## Drew (Nov 13, 2018)

vignmachine said:


> I respectfully disagree. Again, a key component of the original paint job is the prominence of the purple. The black line in the reference is negligible, whereas it completely overtakes the purple in the Zeus. "Thin black line".
> Furthermore, if I'm telling you I want the paint to look like X, and you make the call that you can do it by doing Y, it's not really on me that the way you did it didn't work out. If it was a matter of being charged the extra $200 but to get the specific paint job I wanted, I obviously would have paid the extra charge - particularly since I OK'd the initial quote, anyway.
> 
> I think I was rational in placing trust that the descriptor was sufficient. I'm not a builder or a painter, so I submitted the photo and relied on their expertise. I think that's fair.


...but, my point here, is while this wasn't as clearly disclosed as it should have been, the painters never GOT the reference picture, because they agreed on the written description for the burst rather than the picture, and reduced the price by the $200 reference photo cost. 

Again, this should have been communicated a lot more clearly, but if you read the description that was provided for the bust, and ONLY the description, it's tough to say they got it wrong. 

And I've long held that Kiesel's customer service post-sale is so bad that I'd never chance an order. No argument there.


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## vignmachine (Nov 14, 2018)

Drew said:


> ...but, my point here, is while this wasn't as clearly disclosed as it should have been, the painters never GOT the reference picture, because they agreed on the written description for the burst rather than the picture, and reduced the price by the $200 reference photo cost.
> 
> Again, this should have been communicated a lot more clearly, but if you read the description that was provided for the bust, and ONLY the description, it's tough to say they got it wrong.
> 
> And I've long held that Kiesel's customer service post-sale is so bad that I'd never chance an order. No argument there.



That may be the case. Even then, I find it difficult to accept that they did that black burst as an interpretation of "Thin black line". I'm of the opinion, and it appears many others are as well, that the black burst they did was a pretty standard burst that ignored that descriptor. 

Either way, it's moot now. As you've stated, it's the post-sale service that is in large part the issue.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Nov 15, 2018)

My question is , why the hell is that guitar 2400 bucks??? 5 years ago it would have been like 1500. They jacked the prices


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## xwmucradiox (Nov 15, 2018)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> My question is , why the hell is that guitar 2400 bucks??? 5 years ago it would have been like 1500. They jacked the prices



Back then it would have been a Carvin and people would have scoffed at paying $1500 for it.


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## spudmunkey (Nov 15, 2018)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> My question is , why the hell is that guitar 2400 bucks??? 5 years ago it would have been like 1500. They jacked the prices



Have they, though?

The Holdsworth was their first headless, and launched at $1200 6 years ago. Even simply adjusted for inflation that's $1350. the Zeus starts at $1200 in today's dollars, so technically it "costs" less even though it's the same number of dollars.

Quilted maple tops even 15 years ago were $300 ($430 in today dollars, but they are actually only $400 so we're getting a BETTER price now than in 2012).

So right there, not including the upgrade body wood, the upgraded neck woods and multi-piece neck, you're already at $1780 for the launch-6-years-ago-Holdsworth-headless-with-today's-dollars. Pushing $1900 with case and shipping, so only $300 different than the price OP paid for this Zeus of $2200 (no idea if that was 'total' with case and shipping, though) for his with a multi-piece neck, upgraded body wood, covered pickups and now comes with stainless frets and the Luminlay side dots (which, whether you want it or not, they used to be upcharges and are now included)...none of which were free, even in the rose-colored-glasses "pre-kiesel" time.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Nov 15, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> Have they, though?
> 
> The Holdsworth was their first headless, and launched at $1200 6 years ago. Even simply adjusted for inflation that's $1350. the Zeus starts at $1200 in today's dollars, so technically it "costs" less even though it's the same number of dollars.
> 
> ...



Yeah I'll pile on Kiesel for more than a couple things but their pricing is not one of them. I think they've managed to stay pretty reasonable on the price front, for the most part. 
$2200 for a semi-custom made in America guitar sounds pretty good to me.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 15, 2018)

Not to mention, the OP corrected the price in a different post, it was $2024, not $2400.


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## spudmunkey (Nov 15, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> Quilted maple tops even 15 years ago were $300 ($430 in today dollars, but they are actually only $400 so we're getting a BETTER price now than in 2012).



One correction: I meant to type "2002" instead of "2012".


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## crowbar1115 (Dec 1, 2018)

You'd think that in situations like this they'd do a quick test burst on scrap wood, take a pic and get customer approval before moving forward. 

It would cost next to nothing and prevent this kind of negative publicity from ever appearing


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## Mathemagician (Dec 1, 2018)

crowbar1115 said:


> You'd think that in situations like this they'd do a quick test burst on scrap wood, take a pic and get customer approval before moving forward.
> 
> It would cost next to nothing and prevent this kind of negative publicity from ever appearing



That’s  not  what  we  do  here  at  Kiesel  guitars!

I’ve got Jeff himself here and he said that the guitar is perfect and the client just doesn’t know what they wanted.


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## crowbar1115 (Dec 1, 2018)

Kiesel does have that Fallout 76 vibe at times, don't they? Haha


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## goobaba (Dec 10, 2018)

I feel like this Kiesel better achived the vibe you were going for


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## cwhitey2 (Dec 10, 2018)

crowbar1115 said:


> You'd think that in situations like this they'd do a quick test burst on scrap wood, take a pic and get customer approval before moving forward.
> 
> It would cost next to nothing and prevent this kind of negative publicity from ever appearing


...well that would make sense.

Plus you cant trust their pics...at all.


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## BillCosby (Dec 10, 2018)

Mathemagician said:


> That’s  not  what  we  do  here  at  Kiesel  guitars!
> 
> I’ve got Jeff himself here and he said that the guitar is perfect and the client just doesn’t know what they wanted.


Based on this thread, I'd definitely disagree with that 100%. He got an awesome looking guitar that, by his own admission, is flawless otherwise. But he is disappointed in it.

Why in the hell would he be disappointed if he didn't know exactly what he wanted? Take that justification crap somewhere else.


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## Mathemagician (Dec 10, 2018)

BillCosby said:


> Based on this thread, I'd definitely disagree with that 100%. He got an awesome looking guitar that, by his own admission, is flawless otherwise. But he is disappointed in it.
> 
> Why in the hell would he be disappointed if he didn't know exactly what he wanted? Take that justification crap somewhere else.




I think you completely misread what I wrote. We are both saying the client is deservedly upset.

My comment was sarcasm that Kiesel wouldn’t even bother testing that they could do a color before saying the could do it.


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## Jeff (Dec 11, 2018)

BillCosby said:


> Based on this thread, I'd definitely disagree with that 100%. He got an awesome looking guitar that, by his own admission, is flawless otherwise. But he is disappointed in it.
> 
> Why in the hell would he be disappointed if he didn't know exactly what he wanted? Take that justification crap somewhere else.



Hey Bill. Apparently prison has impaired your ability to understand satire.


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## GXPO (Dec 11, 2018)

I looked at these 2 pictures and thought, 'you're right, that god-awful paint job on top looks nothing like the classy understated one below.' Imagine my shock when I read the thread properly.

Sorry to hear about your experience, but I'm glad you at least like how the guitar plays. On the bright side, if you keep until you're 40 you may prefer it. 

EDIT: Fat fingers


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