# Examples of Counter Point in heavy metal?



## Rogueleader (Oct 1, 2009)

I'm a music student in college and in my theory classes we are starting to do an analysis of contrapunctal music. Which leads me to the question... What are some (Strict or less strict) uses of counterpoint in heavy metal?

Sorry if there's been a thread like this already but I couldn't find it with search.


----------



## Stealthdjentstic (Oct 1, 2009)

Anata is really well known for this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anata


----------



## Rogueleader (Oct 1, 2009)

Stealthtastic said:


> Anata is really well known for this
> 
> Anata - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




The beginning of that was really clear. One of my main questions is: Is soloing over a riff/progression whatever commonly considered contrpunctal if it abides by the rules?


----------



## Stealthdjentstic (Oct 1, 2009)

I have no idea, I don't even know what counterpoint is really


----------



## Rogueleader (Oct 1, 2009)

Stealthtastic said:


> I have no idea, I don't even know what counterpoint is really



I don't really either. I was hoping (an I'm sure they do) that someone here has a rock solid understanding of the concept. For example is the start of Could This Be Magic? by van halen counterpoint? I've thought of a couple other example but it would be nice if someone could verify if I am OK in my conceptual understanding or completely off base.


----------



## Mr. S (Oct 1, 2009)

Emperor use it alot in their later albums, IX Equilibrium and Promethieus in particular. though 'curse you all men' is a good example:


----------



## All_¥our_Bass (Oct 1, 2009)

Basically you have two or more different melodies going at the same and usually when one is moving upward the other will move downward.

Soloing over stuff technically fulfills this (different instruments doing different things at the same time) but a better example would be two different guitar riffs that are distinct but harmonize well, being played at the same time.


----------



## TruthDose (Oct 1, 2009)

Also, just about anything from Spawn of Possession

Just Listen to the melodies.




this one is much easier to focus on..


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (Oct 1, 2009)

Counterpoint, in its loosest definition, is two or more independent musical lines playing against each other. Melody and accompaniment could be considered counterpoint, though this is not what we typically think of as contrapuntal. Of course, one doesn't hear so much imitation and fugal devices in music anymore, particularly in the offshoots of blues rock, but counterpoint is still there. There is only one song that I can think of that overtly uses a contrapuntal technique. Check this out:



Forgetting the orchestral introduction (which has a few problems), there is some interesting counterpoint when the main part of the song comes in. At 0:44, listen to the guitar. Two separate melodies are created in the guitar part by way of contrary motion between the guitar melody and the "pedal" beneath it.



There is a bit of loose counterpoint here:




Edit: Thought of another one.



From the beginning of the song to about 0:30, the orchestral parts are moving against the guitar part. After that, the voice, keyboard, and guitars are all separate voices (also counterpoint). Note the descending sequence in the guitar part from 0:41-0:42. By making one melody more active in one part than another, you can emphasize its independence.

Naturally, in the orchestral arrangement, there is also counterpoint. Come to think of it, a lot of Dimmu's stuff is pretty contrapuntal.

Not metal, but Gentle Giant uses counterpoint to a great extent in their compositions. Note the imitation between the keyboard and guitar at 0:58:


----------



## Trev (Oct 1, 2009)

Ulcerate for sure 


3:06-4:05, 4:37-5:03 are two really good examples...


Portal


1:35-2:15, 3:16-3:49


----------



## troyguitar (Oct 1, 2009)

The very first thing that comes to mind are parts of Speed Metal Symphony, AKA the best shred instrumental ever:



Savatage/TSO also use it frequently on their post-1990 stuff, especially on vocals. Listen to the last couple minutes of Chance:


----------



## HammerAndSickle (Oct 1, 2009)

This is what came to mind when I heard the thread: the intro to March of the Mutes by Unearth.


----------



## hufschmid (Oct 1, 2009)

Stealthtastic said:


> I have no idea, I don't even know what counterpoint is really



Its when in a forum you click on the neg rep, then somebody clicks on the green rep to counterpoint you...


----------



## fretninjadave (Oct 1, 2009)

You could check out my band we do alot of stuff like that.
"Licence" would be the best song I guess

www.myspace.com/hankofthedestructionmoose


----------



## Keytarist (Oct 1, 2009)

Not too sure how to explain this in english, but...Don't forget the rhythm relationships. This is essential to make them independent from each other; if you have two melody lines, the rhythm subdivision in one melody will vary in relation to the other melody. For instance: If one melody is going in 16ths, the other part should be in 8ths, or in any other lesser subdivision. Is not all contrary motion; if you have two melodies going in the same rhythm subdivision, this would be more like an homophonic texture rather than counterpoint texture, despite of the melodic motion. You can find some exceptions though. The climax of the 13th Invention by J.S. Bach is an arpeggio going down the keyboard, 16ths notes in both hands.
Also, an interesting melody line is important in all the parts. There should be no 'accompanying' parts, they all should have the same importance to your ears. Unless it is a 'mixed' texture.
Those are not exactly rules, but they apply to basic work on counterpoint.
There is a song by Deep Purple (I' dont remember which one, sorry) that contains a fuguetta...maybe this helps if it is not too far from heavy metal. Would you like to tell the name of the song to the OP?.


----------



## kung_fu (Oct 1, 2009)

The first two names that come to my mind are Emperor and Arsis.


----------



## DaveCarter (Oct 2, 2009)

Im pretty sure Immerse by Fellsilent uses counterpoint, in the section between about 2 and 3 minutes. There's a rhythm part, a contrasting lead part, a vocal melody, and then another rhythmically contrasting vocal part. That's gotta be counterpoint!!


----------



## BlackMetalVenom (Oct 17, 2009)

hufschmid said:


> Its when in a forum you click on the neg rep, then somebody clicks on the green rep to counterpoint you...



*I actually laughed hysterically at this for a good minute. So I added to your rep. I hope you don't counterpoint me man. *


----------



## lefty robb (Oct 17, 2009)

troyguitar said:


> The very first thing that comes to mind are parts of Speed Metal Symphony, AKA the best shred instrumental ever:





No doubt!! This entire song is nothing but counterpoint.

Jason was all about it, here you can cleanly and easily hear it:


----------



## Harry (Oct 17, 2009)

Between The Buried and Me has some counterpoint happening in a few of their songs too.


----------



## Fred (Oct 17, 2009)

The harmony that first kicks in at around 0m15s here is the first thing that came to mind for me:


----------



## hufschmid (Oct 17, 2009)

BlackMetalVenom said:


> *I actually laughed hysterically at this for a good minute. So I added to your rep. I hope you don't counterpoint me man. *



The idea was to make you laugh


----------



## matty2fatty (Oct 17, 2009)

Try Ihsahns (the guy from Emperor) solo stuff, he seems to do quite a bit of that with layering different guitar tracks. I think the song Elevator off of angL starts off somewhere along those lines.


----------

