# Ran Guitars...your thoughts/experiences?



## CassDarkwing (Nov 1, 2011)

So I've just recently discovered Ran custom guitars...
The Crusher 7 string model...I guess you could call that my new dream guitar. It's absolutely insane. Beautiful. What are your thoughts on Ran? Comments or complaints? Anything at all? I have never heard of them until the other day, just wondering how they're faring for everyone who has one.


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## IB-studjent- (Nov 1, 2011)

they have a solid rep on this forum, you could consult multiple forum members who have ordered them.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 1, 2011)

They had some issues a few years back with getting some specs wrong and delivering some flawed instruments. Though, they seem to be improving. There was a recent Crusher that was delivered with poor fretwork. 

Honestly, I don't think I'd go for a RAN. Especially if it's going to be your first custom guitar. Their pricing can be solid and their willingness to copy other's designs is enticing. I'd much rather go with a domestic shop.


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## Jakke (Nov 1, 2011)

Love mine, you can see the NGD in my sig.

Solid guitars, for me it plays better than my Ibby prestige. Owner Dariusz is a great guy and very good to work with, he is very concerned about customer well being, very concerned about having a good reputation (which is very important in a builder).

And yeah, mine had fretwork issues, I have researched it and put it down to materials. Ebony is prone to shrinking, and that is what happened to mine. Note though that it has not ruined the guitar at all, it is just the edges of the frets that are a bit sharper than I was used to, thanks for the ever lasting concern Max

When I brought it in front of Dariusz he was most troubled, but he gave me some tips to smothen them a bit. But frankly I had gotten used to it, so I didn't do anything.

So In conclusion, they are an excellent custom shop, does all their own wood-work, has an involved owner, and most of all has pretty affordable prices. 

These words however does not mean a lot, actions do however, and I have started saving up for my next RAN


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## UnderTheSign (Nov 1, 2011)

Judging by what people are saying on here they seem to be pretty solid these days.

Personally - I don't like them blatantly copying some very unique builders' shapes, it's a matter of integrity and I wouldn't buy from them for that reason. That's just me though.


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## Sepultorture (Nov 1, 2011)

UnderTheSign said:


> Judging by what people are saying on here they seem to be pretty solid these days.
> 
> Personally - I don't like them blatantly copying some very unique builders' shapes, it's a matter of integrity and I wouldn't buy from them for that reason. That's just me though.



i can understand your stance on their methods, but i also see it asa way for others to get customs they otherwise could not get elsewhere. and until Ibanez opens it's LACS shop to the public i will be going with RAN


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## Pikka Bird (Nov 1, 2011)

UnderTheSign said:


> Judging by what people are saying on here they seem to be pretty solid these days.
> 
> Personally - I don't like them blatantly copying some very unique builders' shapes, it's a matter of integrity and I wouldn't buy from them for that reason. That's just me though.



I know they have a lot of copies in their gallery, but which small-time builders are they ripping off exactly? I could imagine there's some Rico designs in there, or what?


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## Jakke (Nov 1, 2011)

I don't see it as ripping off, he does not claim it is his own designs after all. It is no different if I were to build an Iceman myself, is that also ripping off?


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 1, 2011)

It's not ripping off until they pull an Ed Roman.


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## Jakke (Nov 1, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> It's not ripping off until they pull an Ed Roman.



And what is an Ed Roman?

*EDIT* No matter, I looked it up


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 1, 2011)




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## CassDarkwing (Nov 1, 2011)

Jakke said:


> Love mine, you can see the NGD in my sig.
> 
> Solid guitars, for me it plays better than my Ibby prestige. Owner Dariusz is a great guy and very good to work with, he is very concerned about customer well being, very concerned about having a good reputation (which is very important in a builder).
> 
> ...



THAT is amazing. How much did you pay in total?


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## Jakke (Nov 1, 2011)

CassDarkwing said:


> THAT is amazing. How much did you pay in total?



1340 Euro, that including flight case.


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## Jakke (Nov 1, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


>



I have to say that guy seems shameless


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## kmanick (Nov 1, 2011)

Sharp Fret ends?? that was it?
shit that can happen on any guitar (it has happened to plenty of mine)
that's just wood shrinking from climate change.
Who ever takes Rans photos is a highly skilled photographer.
Their pics always look incredible.
Jakke your Ran looks great!


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## Pikka Bird (Nov 1, 2011)

^I was gonna say that. In fact, I think I _did_ say that in the NGD thread in question. Hang your guitar in a room that's a little too dry and hot and your ends will start sticking out in a matter of weeks or even sooner.


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## Jakke (Nov 1, 2011)

Pikka Bird said:


> ^I was gonna say that. In fact, I think I _did_ say that in the NGD thread in question. Hang your guitar in a room that's a little too dry and hot and your ends will start sticking out in a matter of weeks or even sooner.



I know you said that, I really appreciate it, your tips was very good I must say


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## Pikka Bird (Nov 1, 2011)

^You tried it? I didn't realize, but I was hoping you would try. So with that comment I'm guessing it worked without a hitch...?


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## Jakke (Nov 1, 2011)

Pikka Bird said:


> ^You tried it? I didn't realize, but I was hoping you would try. So with that comment I'm guessing it worked without a hitch...?



I did it a small for a small amount, I did not dare to do it much since it could harm the guitar, but a little.


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## ExhumedShadow (Nov 1, 2011)

Ran guitars are top notch both in overall quality and looks.
They have fair prices and endless custom options.
When it comes 2 body and headstock design they are million miles away from other custom shops, even if they use similar shapes 2 those of d big brands.
The only reason I'm not having one built for myself is d 14months waiting time they quoted me last month.
Go ahead you won't regret!


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## 77zark77 (Nov 1, 2011)

I asked them for a work but : 12-15 month delay announced + no warranty on the woods + "no pic 'till it's done" is a Ran rule = I'll ask someone else


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## Dvaienat (Nov 1, 2011)

Pretty good! Most people are very impressed with them, both on this forum and others.


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## orakle (Nov 1, 2011)

77zark77 said:


> no warranty on the woods + "no pic 'till it's done" is a Ran rule


 

hmm, according to some ppl that got RAN guitars, that isn't true at all


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## UnderTheSign (Nov 1, 2011)

Pikka Bird said:


> I know they have a lot of copies in their gallery, but which small-time builders are they ripping off exactly? I could imagine there's some Rico designs in there, or what?


I spot a number of Ricos and a handful of Moser designs. I didn't specify "small-time" builders, so what about the BC Rich, Dean, Jackson, Minarik, Ken Lawrence and other shapes? 

I'm surprised, really. People get into discussions over Blackmachine-y headstocks etc all the time, yet this doesn't bother you?



Jakke said:


> I don't see it as ripping off, he does not claim it is his own designs after all. It is no different if I were to build an Iceman myself, is that also ripping off?


But you're not making money off that Iceman, are you?


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## Jakke (Nov 1, 2011)

UnderTheSign said:


> But you're not making money off that Iceman, are you?



But if were to do it for a friend, and he pays the materials?


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## Pikka Bird (Nov 1, 2011)

UnderTheSign: I totally understand why some would consider it a lousy business practice, but I don't see anyone complaining when ET does it, or a plethora of other smaller builders.


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## Sepultorture (Nov 1, 2011)

The only time i would say shameless is if they put the companies logo on that companies design, Ibanez logo on an RG copy would be shameless, and i see that as a no no


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 1, 2011)

I would personally be flattered if someone copied my design and it really only helps you in the end so long as people know you were the originator of the design and concepts.

A great example is Ola, he actually encourages people to copy his design and helps them do it.

This is great for his business because you'll almost definitely be buying some slick anodized hardware from him


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## Edika (Nov 1, 2011)

The crusher model seems awesome and very affordable! And wenge fretboard with no upcharge? Yum yum!!!

I've got to find a new job and soon!


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## Emperoff (Nov 2, 2011)

I've seen horror stories about RAN getting guitars with totally wrong specs and refusing to take responsability of it. Their fretwork doesn't seem to be the best either, as some people had to bring them to other luthiers to fix it. A friend of mine also had one and sold it for a Caparison. Much happier.

However, there is also plenty of owners swearing by them, although I don't know how many high end guitars they have had before to compare.


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## Chris Migdalski (Nov 2, 2011)

I sold a 90' Ibanez universe UV777GR and a reissue 96' black Ibanez Universe with green dots to pay for my upcoming RAN (Believe me it was very painful to sell them both since both were in my possession since late 95)...The RAN was the cost of the 2 Ibanez's brand new and yes I probably could have bought a car with the money... I know it sounds crazy, its a huge gamble and risk but I feel in the end I will be happy with my new 8 string invader V...Ive been waiting since April...The digital mockup is crazy....I cant wait to get my hands on it


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## Churchie777 (Nov 2, 2011)

Chris Migdalski said:


> I sold a 90' Ibanez universe UV777GR and a reissue 96' black Ibanez Universe with green dots to pay for my upcoming RAN (Believe me it was very painful to sell them both since both were in my possession since late 95)...The RAN was the cost of the 2 Ibanez's brand new and yes I probably could have bought a car with the money... I know it sounds crazy, its a huge gamble and risk but I feel in the end I will be happy with my new 8 string invader V...Ive been waiting since April...The digital mockup is crazy....I cant wait to get my hands on it



Im in the exact same boat im selling my UV97silver dot for my RAN 8 build im keeping my GR tho


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## UnderTheSign (Nov 2, 2011)

Stealthtastic said:


> I would personally be flattered if someone copied my design and it really only helps you in the end so long as people know you were the originator of the design and concepts.
> 
> A great example is Ola, he actually encourages people to copy his design and helps them do it.
> 
> This is great for his business because you'll almost definitely be buying some slick anodized hardware from him


Then again - if you design and copyright a unique shape, and someone gets it built by another builder, that's another builder profiting from your design. That's you missing on missing out on money you could've made from your design.

Like I said, why the fuss over a Blackmachine headstock, but not over something like body shapes?


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## RuffeDK (Nov 2, 2011)

RAN has good reputation. I know some artist in the underground-metal scene here in DK would love to get their hands on one ! 

I probably would have had one by now, if it wasn't for my love to Ibanez Prestige guitars XD


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## TemjinStrife (Nov 2, 2011)

Stealthtastic said:


> I would personally be flattered if someone copied my design and it really only helps you in the end so long as people know you were the originator of the design and concepts.
> 
> A great example is Ola, he actually encourages people to copy his design and helps them do it.
> 
> This is great for his business because you'll almost definitely be buying some slick anodized hardware from him



Ola is specifically authorizing the copying of his designs; he lists that they are "open source." He also has fairly little skin in the game, as you say, and he gets advertising and possibly hardware sales out of it.

However, companies like BRJ, Ibanez, Gibson, Jackson, Fender, and others have serious concerns about trademarks and trade dress. They don't want subpar "Ibanazes" or "Gibsuns" out there confusing customers, injuring their reputations, or stealing their sales.

Think about it. The Coca-Cola bottle is protected, as that's a very distinctive shape that is important to the business and marks a product as "Coke" even when you can't read the label. 

Similarly, the Fender headstock shape, PRS doublecut body outline, or Explorer body shape are important indicators of the brand and the reputation associated with it, and the brand owner has an interest in protecting it against competitors or counterfeiters cashing in on their reputation. 

Just changing the logo may not be enough to avoid infringing someone's trademark, since it's awfully hard to read logos onstage or at a distance.

Now, there's a bunch of case law on this that I haven't read yet (including one where Gibson sued PRS to stop the production of the Singlecuts in the early '00s) but there are pretty good reasons why direct copying of someone's body shapes (and especially headstock shapes, which have been held to be trademarkable) is just kind of a bad idea. 

Certainly, it leaves a bad taste in the mouth of any legitimate designer who might wish to profit from their designs. If Agile started producing Decibel Javelins at a fraction of the price Darren charges, he would understandably be angry since a huge portion of what he does is aesthetic design.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 2, 2011)

I really don't feel there's an issue once a builder becomes so busy with regular builds losing customers that can't afford their work anyways isn't an issue.

So long as they don't claim it to be their own original design it's not really that bad.

Also your example with Darren is pretty bad, people shopping for an Agile aren't also shopping for a high end custom


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## TemjinStrife (Nov 2, 2011)

Stealthtastic said:


> I really don't feel there's an issue once a builder becomes so busy with regular builds losing customers that can't afford their work anyways isn't an issue.



Supply and demand. If a builder has a specific, desirable design, and only wishes to build a limited number a year in order to keep the price high and ensure quality (and thus not have to work hundreds of hours) then someone copying them costs them money by increasing the supply and thus lowering the amount they can charge, as well as possibly compromising the reputation of any guitars that look like theirs since they might not be of the same level of quality.



> So long as they don't claim it to be their own original design it's not really that bad.



So, It's okay if I steal your music, copy it, and sell it as my own, as long as I attribute it to you in the first place, and you're not seeing a cent of profit or royalties?



> Also your example with Darren is pretty bad, people shopping for an Agile aren't also shopping for a high end custom



The example with Darren is quite a good one I think. If someone wants a guitar that looks like a Javelin, they have to go to him, and pay his prices. If someone's producing a guitar that looks like a Javelin, not only are they taking a section of the market of people who want a guitar that looks like that from Darren, but they're also profiting from all the time and effort he has spent developing the design and shapes.

And, if those Javelin copies happen to be poor quality, it can bring Darren's reputation down as a builder, since he's the only person who is generally known to build Javelins.

Look at what's happening with Blackmachine clones. Suddenly there's a relatively large number of people profiting off of Doug's reputation, design cachet, and hard work.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 2, 2011)

You could look at it the other way too though.

He's not that well known outside of a few forums, if a major manufacturer used his design and accredited him for it then people wanting the real deal would go to him. He'd get a lot of easy exposure that way just like Ola.

Someone here is getting a Strandberg copy done and it's helped bring more attention to Ola's work.


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## TemjinStrife (Nov 2, 2011)

Stealthtastic said:


> You could look at it the other way too though.
> 
> He's not that well known outside of a few forums, if a major manufacturer used his design and accredited him for it then people wanting the real deal would go to him. He'd get a lot of easy exposure that way just like Ola.



Or, since he is so unknown, they'd just run to that major manufacturer (since, damn, they're making an awesome looking guitar!) and not bother to do any research.



> Someone here is getting a Strandberg copy done and it's helped bring more attention to Ola's work.



This is very different because Strandberg explicitly wants his design work to be publicly available and open source, so he has expressly disclaimed his objection to others using it, so long as they attribute it to him.

Darren's situation as a designer is exactly the opposite. He's spent lots of time and effort on his designs and wants to keep control of them so that he can make money off of them, and others cannot profit off the back of his hard work. Similarly, Gibson, Jackson, Ibanez, et al spend lots of money producing and building guitars with certain design elements and earning a reputation in the industry and with the guitar-buying public, and don't want people profiting off of their reputations.

I don't necessarily agree with all aspects of intellectual property, but the direct infringement of someone's hard work for profit does bother me.


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## Sepultorture (Nov 2, 2011)

i get why big companies with original designs get pissed when someone copies their work, but i look at it strictly from a RAN point of view.

they do not offer those shapes themselves, they don specialize in making such and such's guitars and saying they are better or that they are their designs. they do what a customers asks of them, tht is strictly their business. if a customer shows up wanting an exact copy of anothers conmpany cus RAN can do it cheaper, or someone wants an ibby, like me, but made to his exact specs and can't get it from the original company because it would be too expensive (as you are paying for a name aswell as the fact that it is a full on custom) or their custom shop is not open to the public. RAN makes for people exactly what they want, no mroe or less, they don't preport to ever make someones design better, or that it is their design, or that they specialize in that design. they are luthiers that simply do whata a customer wants down to the letter, no more, no less.


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## MetalDaze (Nov 2, 2011)

Back on topic 

Since the OP is in the US, I suggest not ordering from Ran. There are so many things that 'could' go wrong with a custom guitar.....from communication issues to shipping mishaps. It's a long way from Poland to here and if you ever did run into trouble, the costs of trying to ship the guitar back are high. Plus, if something went really bad, you'd have to find a lawyer willing to deal with Polish laws 

There are many great builders here in the US and while you might still run into issues, it will be easier to work through with someone closer to where you call home


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## TemjinStrife (Nov 2, 2011)

Sepultorture said:


> i get why big companies with original designs get pissed when someone copies their work, but i look at it strictly from a RAN point of view.
> 
> they do not offer those shapes themselves, they don specialize in making such and such's guitars and saying they are better or that they are their designs. they do what a customers asks of them, tht is strictly their business. if a customer shows up wanting an exact copy of anothers conmpany cus RAN can do it cheaper, or someone wants an ibby, like me, but made to his exact specs and can't get it from the original company because it would be too expensive (as you are paying for a name aswell as the fact that it is a full on custom) or their custom shop is not open to the public. RAN makes for people exactly what they want, no mroe or less, they don't preport to ever make someones design better, or that it is their design, or that they specialize in that design. they are luthiers that simply do whata a customer wants down to the letter, no more, no less.



And they are making money using someone else's work. If I want you to give me a copy of an album for $5 (say, Symphony X, or some other band whose albums cost more than $5), and you download the audio from a torrent site, burn it to a disc, and give it to me, you're doing exactly what I ask. Yet you'd probably also agree that that was stealing, or at least profiting from someone else's work.

How is what Ran does any different?

The only reason they can get away with it is because they are in Poland, where, like Roter, they're a little hard to sue.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 2, 2011)

It's more like selling a chinese knockoff of the Iphone. Not with the case of Ran but most of the time copies aren't up to the real deal anyways.


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## Jakke (Nov 2, 2011)

TemjinStrife said:


> And they are making money using someone else's work. If I want you to give me a copy of an album for $5 (say, Symphony X, or some other band whose albums cost more than $5), and you download the audio from a torrent site, burn it to a disc, and give it to me, you're doing exactly what I ask. Yet you'd probably also agree that that was stealing, or at least profiting from someone else's work.
> 
> How is what Ran does any different?
> 
> The only reason they can get away with it is because they are in Poland, where, like Roter, they're a little hard to sue.



That is not quite the same, a more correct parallel would be if you want an album. You come to me, and I record all the songs on that album myself, my playing, my mixing, my artwork etc. 

And that is also completely legal, as I do not claim I came up with the songs myself


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## TemjinStrife (Nov 2, 2011)

Stealthtastic said:


> It's more like selling a chinese knockoff of the Iphone. Not with the case of Ran but most of the time copies aren't up to the real deal anyways.



And that's okay too?


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 2, 2011)

TemjinStrife said:


> And that's okay too?



I never really said it's ok. I just think from a marketing perspective it would help you more than hurt you.


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## TemjinStrife (Nov 2, 2011)

Stealthtastic said:


> I never really said it's ok. I just think from a marketing perspective it would help you more than hurt you.



But at the same time, if you allow it to continue, you lose control of it and it enters the public domain. So you can no longer make money from your design work.

That's why EVH is so stupidly litigious over his stripy-pattern things.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 2, 2011)

Yup you're right, but you can't really do much about it if like you said they're based out of a country like Poland.


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## davefoxtattoos (Nov 2, 2011)

ripping off designs is stealing, plain and simple. 

Moser, Rico, BC Rich, Jackson, and all the other companies RAN makes money off of their shapes see nothing from them. Apparently they're in Poland and copyright laws don't affect them.

Try putting your heart into creating something (guitar or otherwise) and then seeing someone has stolen it and is making money off of it. It's happened to me and my heart drops every time.

In the internet age, this kind of thing will happen all the time, and there's little to nothing anyone can do about it. I don't freak out about it anymore, but I can't condone or respect it.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but stealing is illegal. Time for people to use any morals and brains they might have and figure out the difference


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## Jakke (Nov 2, 2011)

davefoxtattoos said:


> ripping off designs is stealing, plain and simple.
> 
> Moser, Rico, BC Rich, Jackson, and all the other companies RAN makes money off of their shapes see nothing from them. Apparently they're in Poland and copyright laws don't affect them.
> 
> ...



Now now, stealing is a legal definition. This is not illegal, see my previous post about music. Ergo, this is not stealing.
I can see you have a personal stake in this, and it is always nasty when intellectual property is stolen, this is not the case here though. What you went through is theft, so I'm not contesting that.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 2, 2011)

davefoxtattoos said:


> ripping off designs is stealing, plain and simple.
> 
> Moser, Rico, BC Rich, Jackson, and all the other companies RAN makes money off of their shapes see nothing from them. Apparently they're in Poland and copyright laws don't affect them.
> 
> ...



That pretty much sums up why I think it's better to embrace it and use it as a marketing tool.

Major brand copies you? Post it on your FB page as, "X brand pays tribute to our work". Play it cool and coy and you're good to go


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## TemjinStrife (Nov 2, 2011)

Jakke said:


> Now now, stealing is a legal definition. This is not illegal, see my previous post about music. Ergo, this is not stealing.
> I can see you have a personal stake in this, and it is always nasty when intellectual property is stolen, this is not the case here though. What you went through is theft, so I'm not contesting that.



It is illegal. And "stealing" is not a legal term. "Robbery" or "misappropriation" are legal terms. "Stealing" is not a legal term of art; it means taking what isn't yours without permission.

Your previous post about music would be more apt to the example you were trying to quote if you approached me and said "I want an album is Deep Purple's 'Burn' album, with all of the same tracks, but a more modern sound and production."

That is infringement; Deep Purple has intellectual property in the compositions within "Burn" and if you took the composition and arrangement without paying any royalties, that would be infringing their right to make copies, their right to make derivative works, and possibly even their right to distribute their works.

Infringement of intellectual property (whether it be copyright, patent, or trademark) is in fact illegal; it is against the law.

It is not a criminal act, but you would be required to disgorge all profits (as well as possibly punitive damages) and receive an injunction against further use.


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## TemjinStrife (Nov 2, 2011)

Stealthtastic said:


> That pretty much sums up why I think it's better to embrace it and use it as a marketing tool.
> 
> Major brand copies you? Post it on your FB page as, "X brand pays tribute to our work". Play it cool and coy and you're good to go



And then lose control of it forever!


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 2, 2011)

Not if the person breaking it based out of Poland. I understand the need to go after people locally to maintain your rights.


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## Jakke (Nov 2, 2011)

TemjinStrife said:


> Your previous post about music would be more apt to the example you were trying to quote if you approached me and said "I want an album is Deep Purple's 'Burn' album, with all of the same tracks, but a more modern sound and production."
> 
> That is infringement; Deep Purple has intellectual property in the compositions within "Burn" and if you took the composition and arrangement without paying any royalties, that would be infringing their right to make copies, their right to make derivative works, and possibly even their right to distribute their works.
> 
> ...



It is not, doing covers, tributes etc is covered under something called "fair use". That is, if I do not claim I have written it myself, and if asked crediting the copyright owner/owners, it is not illegal.

What Ran is doing constitutes fair use, Dariusz does not claim in any way that he has come up with the designs himself, he does not make these by his own initiative, and most of all, he uses his own logo on them, so they are not forgeries either.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 2, 2011)

Josh is a law student, he knows his US law well dude...


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## Jakke (Nov 2, 2011)

Stealthtastic said:


> Josh is a law student, he knows his US law well dude...



Yeah, US law.

Poland is a member of the Europea Union, thus making some concessions towards the commonwealth. It is just as easy to sue someone in Poland as in sweden on for example copyright claims because of that. The reason no-one has done that is because they know they don't have a case. They would be forced to pay out of their nose.

Josh, I'm not taking a piss on your education, but it works a bit different over here.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 2, 2011)

He's not talking about that though, we were talking about what happens when a non American companies copies one. We should get back OT though.


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## Jakke (Nov 2, 2011)

Stealthtastic said:


> He's not talking about that though, we were talking about what happens when a non American companies copies one. We should get back OT though.



Yeah we should.

Last word: US law is not applicable here.


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## TemjinStrife (Nov 2, 2011)

It actually is, if you're in the US and the company whose shape you're infringing does business in the US. You might well be found liable for commissioning such a copy


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## Jakke (Nov 2, 2011)

OT, the company is awesome, quality guitars. It is a really good choice if someone were to decide on a RAN


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## TemjinStrife (Nov 2, 2011)

Jakke said:


> It is not, doing covers, tributes etc is covered under something called "fair use". That is, if I do not claim I have written it myself, and if asked crediting the copyright owner/owners, it is not illegal.
> 
> What Ran is doing constitutes fair use, Dariusz does not claim in any way that he has come up with the designs himself, he does not make these by his own initiative, and most of all, he uses his own logo on them, so they are not forgeries either.



Covers and tributes are not automatically "fair use." They are covered under §115 of the Copyright Act in the compulsory licenses section, and require a statutory fee to be paid. And that's solely applicable to musical compositions. For infringement of other copyrights, there is no such provision.

If you can show that it was a parody, you might get away with a "fair use" defense. But, winning is not guaranteed and it's very expensive to litigate.

If you're in the US (or any other similar IP-related country) you're probably better off ordering from someone else. Plus, that way you're not condoning the misappropriation of others' intellectual property.


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## TemjinStrife (Nov 2, 2011)

OT, the support problems with the US and Poland would be an issue for me personally; I'd like to have the builder of my multi-thousand dollar instrument accessible, or at least in a position where I can get at them if there are any issues


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## Jakke (Nov 2, 2011)

TemjinStrife said:


> Covers and tributes are not automatically "fair use." They are covered under §115 of the Copyright Act in the compulsory licenses section, and require a statutory fee to be paid. And that's solely applicable to musical compositions. For infringement of other copyrights, there is no such provision.
> 
> If you can show that it was a parody, you might get away with a "fair use" defense. But, winning is not guaranteed and it's very expensive to litigate.
> 
> If you're in the US (or any other similar IP-related country) you're probably better off ordering from someone else. Plus, that way you're not condoning the misappropriation of others' intellectual property.



Yeah, no-one has taken Weird Al to court yet

I don't see how that is applicable though, since that is US law.
But we should, as Stealth said, go OT


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 2, 2011)

Likewise, or someone really well knows for their stellar communication. If you're in Europe ask Vik! He doesnt do copies though.


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## TemjinStrife (Nov 2, 2011)

Jakke said:


> Yeah, no-one has taken Weird Al to court yet
> 
> I don't see how that is applicable though, since that is US law.
> But we should, as Stealth said, go OT



It's applicable because the OP asked about opinions on RAN guitars, and the OP is from Arkansas. Last time I checked Arkansas is unfortunately still part of the United States. I gave my opinion of RAN's business practices, and any risks associated with ordering them.

You guys just took issue with my opinion, so I backed it up.


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## Jakke (Nov 2, 2011)

TemjinStrife said:


> OT, the support problems with the US and Poland would be an issue for me personally; I'd like to have the builder of my multi-thousand dollar instrument accessible, or at least in a position where I can get at them if there are any issues



I agree on that, If OP is not looking for a special RAN design, he might as well go domestic. There could also be some unexpected tolls when importing to the US.


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## Jakke (Nov 2, 2011)

TemjinStrife said:


> It's applicable because the OP asked about opinions on RAN guitars, and the OP is from Arkansas. Last time I checked Arkansas is unfortunately still part of the United States. I gave my opinion of RAN's business practices, and any risks associated with ordering them.
> 
> You guys just took issue with my opinion, so I backed it up.



I'm not into morals with this, I just go strictly with what could happen, and you can't enforce US laws in Europe. But 'nuff of that.

But I see no moral problem with this either.


Isn't it interesting that the "RAN horror stories" usually comes from people who has never held a RAN, but have heard it from a friend's friend?


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## TimmaethBoy (Nov 2, 2011)

Saw the Crusher model a while ago and fell in love with it. Spec'd out everything I wanted, and it was a bit too rich for my blood. Although the pricing kind of put me off a bit (the exchange rate, shipping cost to the U.S., yadayada), the main reason I ended up backing out was because of the fact that they're overseas. 

It's a big risk imo to buy a guitar from a custom shop overseas, not knowing what exactly the final product will look like, how it will play, or if there are any issues that arise in the shipping/final quality. It'll be a major PITA trying to get an issue sorted out, if there ever was one.

Just my 2 cents. But if you want to go for it, hell why not if it's your dream guitar.


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## CassDarkwing (Nov 2, 2011)

TemjinStrife said:


> It's applicable because the OP asked about opinions on RAN guitars, and the OP is from Arkansas. Last time I checked Arkansas is unfortunately still part of the United States. I gave my opinion of RAN's business practices, and any risks associated with ordering them.
> 
> You guys just took issue with my opinion, so I backed it up.


 
Hahahahaha. "Unfortunately." 

I like you already. xD


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## CassDarkwing (Nov 2, 2011)

I'm really really liking this RAN, and I _totally_ understand and see where you guys are coming from with the communication/shipping things. But it's gonna be really hard to pull away from that thing now, I mean LOOK AT IT. hahaha. I'll look more into this before I actually purchase it, right now I'm a little ways away from the like $1800 USD it will be out of my pocket. :s So I'm just weighing my options here. Definitely going for higher end now, can't believe I almost settled for an Agile. I would absolutely love to have a Crusher, but, like I said, these things need looking into. And I will do so. I filled out a quote form for my custom Crusher yesterday. Waiting on the damage report to show up in an email. The anticipation is killing me.


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## MetalHeadMat (Nov 2, 2011)

I remember reading a story about how some buyers over in Finland and Germany etc buy them specifically from Ran, because they'd get a CS B.C. Rich or Jackson and one of the specs would be wrong, but for some reason since they shipped it over the pond they had no real responsibility to fix it.

Although I don't know how true this is, since it's pretty vague and doesn't make too much sense.

That being said, until Ibanez opens up their custom shop to the public, I'd gladly buy a Ran. Hell, same to B.C. Rich.


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## UnderTheSign (Nov 3, 2011)

Ehh, BC Rich can and will build you a custom. Either go through your local dealer or find one in the USA willing to get you one. Don't know if he still does it but I know Larry @ Beat Street Music used to ship 'em to Europe all the time.


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## isispelican (Nov 7, 2011)

this is from misha's formspring : 

what do you think about RAN GUITARS?

"I played Jan Hoeglund's custom, and it seriously fucking BLEW ME AWAY! That has to be one of the most amazing 7s i have ever played, and it is absolutely gorgeous too! I had read some mixed reviews so i didn't know what to expect, but godamn, that guitar could not have come out any better!


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 7, 2011)

isispelican said:


> this is from misha's formspring :
> 
> what do you think about RAN GUITARS?
> 
> "I played Jan Hoeglund's custom, and it seriously fucking BLEW ME AWAY! That has to be one of the most amazing 7s i have ever played, and it is absolutely gorgeous too! I had read some mixed reviews so i didn't know what to expect, but godamn, that guitar could not have come out any better!



No joke, look through some of Misha's past NGDs, you can pretty much replace "RAN" with any number of customs he's received over the years and it would be the same. 

The dude loves guitars, as do I. 

Thus I'd take this with a grain of salt, especially when someone's talking about a friend/business associate's guitar.


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 7, 2011)

MetalHeadMat said:


> I remember reading a story about how some buyers over in Finland and Germany etc buy them specifically from Ran, because they'd get a CS B.C. Rich or Jackson and one of the specs would be wrong, but for some reason since they shipped it over the pond they had no real responsibility to fix it.
> 
> Although I don't know how true this is, since it's pretty vague and doesn't make too much sense.
> 
> That being said, until Ibanez opens up their custom shop to the public, I'd gladly buy a Ran. Hell, same to B.C. Rich.



I'm with you.

If they're not advertising that they can build a better one (Roman) I don't really see the big deal. Also, even if someone does see it on stage like someone mentioned earlier and recognize it as an Ibanez or Jackson or whoever the fuck shape, I don't see how that could ever give those companies a bad name as someone you paid money to see is using said guitar on stage. This, in my eyes, only makes it more likely that someone would want a guitar from the company by which the guitar appears to have been made.

Moreover, plenty of ppl make copies of other ppl's stuff. Sims, ET, Chris Woods, Nate Perle, etc and many ppl on here suggest them (maybe not so much Sims these days) on here regularly.


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## Pikka Bird (Nov 7, 2011)

There's another thing that I can't help think of here- Ran doesn't advertise that they'll build copies. All of them will have been special ordered by a customer who wants something that's not on the menu. ET, for instance lists the body and neck shapes specifically as being Ibanez copies.

Morally I don't see a the difference between someone ordering a guitar or a replacement neck/body from an actual luthier or building one himself because he wants, for instance, a walnut bodied RG.

And in the case of Ran- I believe that out of the serious guitarists (who are generally notorious for being perpetually low on cash) who have saved up for a Ran custom, the vast majority will probably have been looking around long enough to know where at least 90% of the copies in their gallery come from, so it's not going to steal the glory in most cases.


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## CapenCyber (Nov 7, 2011)

I'm not going to chime in on the legal aspects whatever, that's another discussion and you'll have to make up your own mind.

I got a Ran a few years back: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/sevenstring-guitars/80343-ngd-nearly.html#post1409176

I'm still really happy with it, no complaints at all, and...just look at it!

For the record I have briefly had a go on KxKs and Blackmachines as well as very briefly Nolly's Viks and Daemonesses. I'd say from my overall experiences I'd rank them all in the very high category, beyond that it's all up to personal preference (Except for the Vik, that played the nicest of ANY guitar I've ever tried).

There is one guy on here that wasn't happy with his order and sent it to Amfisound who did some work and I believe he is now happy with it, other than that I have not heard another first-hand "horror story". It's funny that still every time Ran gets mentioned on here these "horror stories" are brought up, they are NOTHING like Rotor. I'd say a horror story is something like the Rotor debacle or DeVries.


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## 808 (Nov 18, 2011)

RAN is just amazing!


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