# Dethklok guitar tabs are illegal?



## Metaguitarist (Aug 22, 2013)

What the fk is the deal with this guys? How can can any company possibly make fan-created tablature illegal to host and share? I just recently got back into Metalocalypse after about 3 years away from it, and thought I'd learn a few of the solos by using tabs. Come to find out I can't find any websites that can host their tabs. I don't understand.

Metallica tabs are everywhere, even though Metallica and other big names are still selling tablature books at music stores, so what is the difference? Is Adult Swim more powerful than these other record labels and artists? 

How is tablature different from posting song lyrics online? Don't see anyone having difficulty doing that...total bullshit.


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## Wings of Obsidian (Aug 22, 2013)

Scale the Summit tabs are too. Because of legal copyrights on the tablature since the tablature books are exclusively published with all rights to the artists. What they do is make "copying" the tabs illegal..but who is to say whether you copy them out of the book and post them online or not?....they don't check, so they just make "all tabs" banned.


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## Metaguitarist (Aug 22, 2013)

And yet Dethklok's entire discography is on youtube. The full album vids are at over 100k views. Talk about picking on the little man, keeping these tabs out of the hands of a few dozen young guitarists who'd like some help learning to play something they enjoy...


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## BucketheadRules (Aug 22, 2013)

Led Zeppelin tabs went a few years ago too. Sucks.


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## Captain Butterscotch (Aug 22, 2013)

Inb4 someone says "use ur ears maen"

But yeah, I was sad when they took StS tabs off of UG a few years back.


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 22, 2013)

Good. Perhaps folks will learn to get an ear. Back before the Internet, you needed to have an ear. I'm SO glad I was forced into it. It was a bummer, a lot, I totally get how much it sucks at first, but I'm such a better, more balanced player because of it. 

Looking on Amazon, it's $11 for a single book with sets of two or three between $20 and $30. That's not too brutal, especially if you REALLY want to learn the stuff without working your ears. 

Before someone says: "What if a poor kid really wants it?!", aluminum is up to $.42 a pound. 

As already stated it has more to do with the publishing companies and there are tons of ways around it if you REALLY don't like Dethklok enough to dish out half a $20.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Aug 22, 2013)

Captain Butterscotch said:


> Inb4 someone says "use ur ears maen"





MaxOfMetal said:


> Good. Perhaps folks will learn to get an ear.


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## Quiet Coil (Aug 22, 2013)

Unless it's official I wouldn't trust it anyway. I remember looking up tab for Fear Factory in the 90's only to find my ears were more accurate


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## MontaraMike (Aug 22, 2013)

Back in my day we just used our ears and figured them out, but... you would meet up with other musicians and find they all play the same song differently LOL!


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## M3CHK1LLA (Aug 22, 2013)

MontaraMike said:


> Back in my day we just used our ears and figured them out, but... you would meet up with other musicians and find they all play the same song differently LOL!



the "offical" tab book would be one way, a guitar mag version would be another, the dude at guitar center would play it another, then you'd go to a concert only to see them play it completely different


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## HubertCumberdale (Aug 22, 2013)

I'm not sure if this point has already been raised, But the reason that Dethklok tabs have been removed from the net (Not sure about the other bands) was because of the release of the official tab books. If they're online for free, the revenue created from the tab-books would be minimal. 

But beside that point, It's matter of opinion if you choose to Love or Hate their reasoning. But I honestly don't mind. If you really, really want to learn the songs, You have to go to the lengths.


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## mr_rainmaker (Aug 22, 2013)

M3CHK1LLA said:


> the "offical" tab book would be one way, a guitar mag version would be another, the dude at guitar center would play it another, then you'd go to a concert only to see them play it completely different



this is what we did backintheday,I remember breaking a tape player trying to figure out yngwie.

even "official" tabs can be wrong or off,I believe tabbing is a gift,I know guys who can just tab out the most complex stuff,getting the notes right but fingering off, as long as you can " find " the right notes use your own fingerings and positions.

after all these years I feel I still suck at transcribing...


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## wankerness (Aug 23, 2013)

I've been under the impression that tabs for most bands are illegal even if they don't have an official tab-book, it just rarely gets enforced unless someone has chosen to make it a priority to enforce it in regards to a specific band. This happened in a big way several years ago when the entire powertab archive was forced to be taken down because of lawsuit threats. I'm not sure how UG gets around it, probably sorta like youtube where they just take down things the second anyone files a complaint and thus appease whoever's complaining.

It's pretty annoying since sometimes tabbooks are a lot worse than the ones you find on the internet. I guess that gives them even more reason to want to ban the ones on the net, though. This is especially true of stuff from the early 90s. Ex, the Dream Theater - Images & Words tab book is absolutely wretched.


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## jwade (Aug 23, 2013)

I remember trying my damnedest to figure out Master of Puppets by ear. It took forever to nail the solos, but it was worth it. Still to this day, I have very little trouble figuring things pretty much straight-away, and only in rare cases do I need a tab. I think that learning by eat was a very valuable ability that the Internet has largely erased.


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## M3CHK1LLA (Aug 23, 2013)

this is for the op


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## DXL (Aug 23, 2013)

Dethklok Tabs | Songsterr Tabs with Rhythm
here you go


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## Señor Voorhees (Aug 23, 2013)

My friend ran into the same issue. As I recall, she ended up torrenting the tab books. Talk about shitty business tactics. 

"We published an official book for the tabs, let's ban the internet from posting their own tabs. What the .... do you mean people are pirating the books out of spite?"

I suppose I can understand why they'd block all tabs, but I still think in this day and age, people who want that shit free will get it and those who want the physical product will buy it. (Not that I entirely agree with that, I like to buy stuff I enjoy using.)


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## ittoa666 (Aug 23, 2013)

To be honest, if people were allowed to put up the tabs online, I wouldn't have figured out I Tamper With the Evidence. That helped my ear a lot. Same story with The Cyborg Slayers.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 23, 2013)

.... that. It'd be one thing if the tabs were accurate like AbyssLord's, but they aren't. Screw tab books. Metallica's especially. Anyone see how they tabbed out the main Blackened riff for the AJFA book? It's awful.

Btw, tabs online are made by fans of the band usually. Way to stiff your fans for being a fan.


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## M3CHK1LLA (Aug 23, 2013)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> ....Metallica's especially. Anyone see how they tabbed out the main Blackened riff for the AJFA book? It's awful...



i own all the metallica tab books worth owning...

about half of them are wrong...i think lars must have tabbed them out.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 23, 2013)

M3CHK1LLA said:


> i own all the metallica tab books worth owning...
> 
> about half of them are wrong...i think lars must have tabbed them out.



I kinda wanna get the Load/Reload books. Worthwhile?


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## Nile (Aug 23, 2013)

I'll use a tab and figure out the nuances or the slightly wrong parts by ear if its not a 100% good tab. If there is zero tabs worth looking at and I like the song enough I can figure out most of it by ear. Not having tabs can .... off though, I just want to learn the song.


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## ferret (Aug 23, 2013)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Btw, tabs online are made by fans of the band usually. Way to stiff your fans for being a fan.



Seems like some of you guys are assuming the band(s) do this. Generally the artist has nothing to do with any DMCA type takedowns. It's the publisher and label protecting their investment.

I'm not saying the artist is never involved, but I'd bet 9 times out of 10 they were never asked "You mind those tabs on UG?" ... the publisher, however, cares quite a bit.


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## Lorcan Ward (Aug 23, 2013)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Good. Perhaps folks will learn to get an ear. Back before the Internet, you needed to have an ear. I'm SO glad I was forced into it. It was a bummer, a lot, I totally get how much it sucks at first, but I'm such a better, more balanced player because of it.





I had no internet until about 4 and half years into my playing so like you if I wanted to learn something I had to tab it myself. Playing music by ear now is almost second nature to me and something I've very glad I took the time to learn.

StS tabs were removed because someone tabbed the book into Guitar Pro and uploaded it to UG so you can see why they were removed.


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## EcoliUVA (Aug 23, 2013)

Odd. I just picked up two versions of Crush my Battle Opponent's Balls last night. Neither were 100%, so maybe that's why? Can you really ban ALL tabs, even if they aren't accurate?

The "get an ear" statement is still sound advice. Tabs definitely expedite the process, but being able to hear when they suck is critical. I've always had the internet for my guitar years, but sometimes tabs just aren't available, or are horrendous. Early Skeletonwitch, a few years back, comes to mind - and that's not really obscure at all. Get some software to slow things down and pick out the notes, figure out the key, etc. Even with tabs, it helps in the long run.


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## BrailleDecibel (Aug 23, 2013)

Having not had internet for the first 3-4 years of my guitar playing really helped me develop my ear, since all I had back then was my guitar, my stereo, and my ears to pick things out (or my guitar-playing friend, if I was lucky, he taught me the chorus of "Death Blooms" from Mudvayne, which was hard as fu_c_k to pick out by ear). Looking back, I wouldn't change a thing, as I hardly ever use tabs now unless I'm really stuck on something, and being able to identify notes and guitar parts by ear has been an extremely valuable tool in both learning and writing songs that I wouldn't give up for anything. It does really suck there are bands out there that make online tabs illegal for those who want to use them, though, as if one really wanted the "official" tabs, they would still shell out to get the tab book, one would imagine.


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## M3CHK1LLA (Aug 23, 2013)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I kinda wanna get the Load/Reload books. Worthwhile?



i have...killem all

ride the lightening

master of puppets

garage days

and justice for all

the others i dont care for


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## wankerness (Aug 23, 2013)

jwade said:


> I remember trying my damnedest to figure out Master of Puppets by ear. It took forever to nail the solos, but it was worth it. Still to this day, I have very little trouble figuring things pretty much straight-away, and only in rare cases do I need a tab. I think that learning by eat was a very valuable ability that the Internet has largely erased.



I CAN tab things, but it's very time-consuming, especially with things with lots of solos. I used to tab tons of Opeth songs and I'd often get through the entire song as far as bass/rhythm guitars went and then just go "f... it" with the solos cause it took too long to figure out the precise rhythms in some sections and stuff, since the guitarists were just sorta playing whatever sounded good and surely couldn't have notated the rhythms themselves (ex, Mikael's solo on PT's 'Arriving Somewhere But Not Here'). 

I've run into similar issues with trying to do tabs for bands like Meshuggah (I tried to do "Swarm") and Means End that use incredibly syncopated rhythms. It's easy to figure out the notes and to play along with the recording, but trying to actually notate the precise rhythms is usually a lengthy trial and error process trying to figure out exactly how long each note is and whether it's a dotted eighth note or an eighth tied to a sixteenth note triplet or whether that hit happens at the start of a measure or if it's on the last sixteenth of the previous measure and ASKLD:FKL:JSF. I'd much rather just look at someone else's work if it's good! Those people who made all those amazing Animals as Leaders tabs on UG are saints.

In conclusion, yeah, despite being able to transcribe I'm definitely not of the opinion that everyone should have to do it or that I'll have more fun learning songs if I have to spend several hours transcribing it before I can even start trying to become able to play it.


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## MontaraMike (Aug 23, 2013)

CJLsky said:


> Having not had internet for the first 3-4 years of my guitar playing really helped me develop my ear,



I think figuring songs out by ear is a great skill to develop and once you do it a bunch you start having an easier time figuring things out. Helps with playing live with other musicians too IMO especially if you do a lot of improvisation.


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## Rev2010 (Aug 23, 2013)

Most tabs books are indeed not 100% correct because it's usually a musician tabbing it out and not the band sitting down to say, "This is what we're playing here".

Online tabs are often the worst. I looked up a couple in my time just out of curiosity for a riff, not to learn how to play a song, and was appalled how often the tab posters don't even get the god damn key correct.

All that said, copyrighting tabs shouldn't even be allowed. Knowing the notes someone plays in the song isn't copyright infringement anymore than knowing the lyrics. If someone posts a pdf of the tab book then yeah that's infringement. Of course there's no way to know for sure if someone is posting from the book on an online tab site but you can't just sweepingly ban something simply based on, "Well we don't know for sure if the poster figured out the song or posted from the book".

Totally lame.


Rev.


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## wankerness (Aug 23, 2013)

My favorite are when you see a tab for a song that's played in B tuning or something and the tab is just in drop D and the guy's like "its played in B i think but whatever this is how i play it lol" in the header.


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## Señor Voorhees (Aug 23, 2013)

No question that online tabs are insanely hit or miss. (usually miss) I personally dislike tabs, but every now and again I tend to look one up for a particular song to get an idea of where to start. I particularly hate the tabs where people don't use common sense with string changes, skipping strings where it's not needed, or relying heavily on open notes/single strings. Usually the single string method makes it more difficult, typically involving long stretches and fast note patterns. 

As far as the Dethklok books go, I'm pretty sure there was a video of Brendon Small saying how after giving one a look he said it was pretty damn near exact what they play live. Of course, that was a video of him plugging the book, so who's to say if he was being legit. It could be worth checking the books out if it's stuff you really want to play, and have a fairly accurate representation of what's going on.


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## Nats (Aug 23, 2013)

Back in my day we used to tab songs by ear in the snow walking uphill. We couldn't just look them up on our gameboy like all you spoiled rotten kids.


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## Vhyle (Aug 23, 2013)

Nats said:


> Back in my day we used to tab songs by ear in the snow walking uphill. We couldn't just look them up on our gameboy like all you spoiled rotten kids.


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## MontaraMike (Aug 23, 2013)

Vhyle said:


>



How did you get this photo of me?


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## mr_rainmaker (Aug 23, 2013)

MontaraMike said:


> How did you get this photo of me?




daddy?????????


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## Metaguitarist (Aug 23, 2013)

Wankerness and Rev, you guys always seem to agree with me and have great things to add. As a new father and full time student, it is really difficult to find time to play guitar at all, let alone try to figure things out by ear. When I was in high school, I too used a CD player and hit rewind a million times trying to figure out Iron Maiden songs and such, but now I'd like to expedite the process so I can have some progress despite my heavy schedule.


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## BaptizedBurning (Aug 24, 2013)

There's Dethklok tab books out there.

*Dethklok -- Dethalbums I & II Guitar TAB Bundle: Authentic Guitar TAB (2 Books & DVD) (Authentic Guitar Tab Editions): Alfred Publishing Staff: 9780739077078: Amazon.com: Books*


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## Rev2010 (Aug 24, 2013)

BaptizedBurning said:


> There's Dethklok tab books out there.
> 
> *Dethklok -- Dethalbums I & II Guitar TAB Bundle: Authentic Guitar TAB (2 Books & DVD) (Authentic Guitar Tab Editions): Alfred Publishing Staff: 9780739077078: Amazon.com: Books*



Says the guy who didn't read the thread  We know there are tab books out there, and that's part of the discussion as to why they're not posted online any longer.


Rev.


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## ArrowHead (Aug 24, 2013)

Rev2010 said:


> Says the guy who didn't read the thread  We know there are tab books out there, and that's part of the discussion as to why they're not posted online any longer.
> 
> 
> Rev.



It's not much discussion, really. Someone who owns the publishing rights forced them to take it down. Because that's what a tab is, a PUBLISHED copy of a transcription available to the public. Legally, we've never had a right to it. But those early days of the internet seems to have left people feeling entitled to the property of others.

The trick is, these people's tabs are making money. Not for them, but for the host sites selling advertising on the pages where the tabs are hosted. So it's pretty understandable why those holding publication rights might take issue with someone else milking their cow when they're not looking.

For the record, when you compared it to lyrics earlier? Those are copywritten too, and most lyric sites have royalty/licensing arrangements in order to host them.

I think todays generation of musicians needs to spend less time trying to justify their entitlement to someone else's art, and spend more time taking back the power and control over their own.



TLDR: Use your ear. It's only hard because you DON'T DO IT. And once you do, you might find many of those "wrong" tabs were the result of your "wrong" ear.


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## mb_777 (Aug 24, 2013)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Good. Perhaps folks will learn to get an ear. Back before the Internet, you needed to have an ear. I'm SO glad I was forced into it. It was a bummer, a lot, I totally get how much it sucks at first, but I'm such a better, more balanced player because of it.
> 
> Looking on Amazon, it's $11 for a single book with sets of two or three between $20 and $30. That's not too brutal, especially if you REALLY want to learn the stuff without working your ears.
> 
> ...



To be honest, I wouldn't mind paying Scale The Summit or Dethklok for tabs because I love both bands, but I also support them by buying their albums - is it really that bad that someone wants to share how to play a few tunes?

That said, I envy the fact that you can tab with your ears. I can pick up basic patterns, but details and solos etc... I fail hard.


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## Dave_Magos (Aug 24, 2013)

HubertCumberdale said:


> I'm not sure if this point has already been raised, But the reason that Dethklok tabs have been removed from the net (Not sure about the other bands) was because of the release of the official tab books. If they're online for free, the revenue created from the tab-books would be minimal.
> 
> But beside that point, It's matter of opinion if you choose to Love or Hate their reasoning. But I honestly don't mind. If you really, really want to learn the songs, You have to go to the lengths.






Indeed. It doesn't take much thought to see that most musicians/bands revenue sourcing have become more challenging thanks to the collapse of the traditional industry models regarding these things.

That said, the tabs disappearing with no official word from the bands is quite dickish. Because after all, this stuff represents the fruits of their fans hard work and dedication to their music. A lot of people are proud of this stuff.

I don't think it would put many of these Bands/Artists out to tell their fans the deal, as opposed to having lawyer minders coldly delete their stuff.


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## ArrowHead (Aug 24, 2013)

mb_777 said:


> To be honest, I wouldn't mind paying Scale The Summit or Dethklok for tabs because I love both bands, but I also support them by buying their albums - is it really that bad that someone wants to share how to play a few tunes?



I think you missed the main point of what you quoted - you're most likely not paying scale the summit for anything. You're paying the owner of the publication rights. Most likely either management, a label, or in some instances (rare) the band itself.

So it's not the bands taking the tabs down, nor are they necessarily profiting from the publication of the tab book. 

Little known fact: Pete Townsend of the Who was a millionaire long before any other member of the band, because while they ALL collected performance royalties it was Townshend that retained all of the publication rights. In addition, he recently sold those very rights for some twenty million dollars.

So it's not always the entire band, or any band member at all, that owns the publication rights.


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## Metaguitarist (Aug 24, 2013)

ArrowHead said:


> I think you missed the main point of what you quoted - you're most likely not paying scale the summit for anything. You're paying the owner of the publication rights. Most likely either management, a label, or in some instances (rare) the band itself.
> 
> So it's not the bands taking the tabs down, nor are they necessarily profiting from the publication of the tab book.
> 
> ...



Very interesting and valuable input sir. Didn't know that, although it is something I've wondered about, such as how I'm sure Devin Townsend makes WAY more money than his band members do.


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## Rev2010 (Aug 24, 2013)

ArrowHead said:


> It's not much discussion, really. Someone who owns the publishing rights forced them to take it down. Because that's what a tab is, a PUBLISHED copy of a transcription available to the public. Legally, we've never had a right to it.



I'm the last person you need to try to educate about *_why_* the tabs are unavailable online. I know quite well why, I just don't agree with it. Is it also illegal then for someone to figure it out correctly by ear then tell someone else over the phone, in person, or on this forum? Doesn't that sound pretty f*u*cking stupid to say that it is? 



ArrowHead said:


> But those early days of the internet seems to have left people feeling entitled to the property of others.



What property are you talking about? Just because one company got the publishing rights to print and sell a tablature book why would you calling it stealing if some guitar player decided to sit at home and tab out a song himself by ear and share it with others? If he never looked at the tab book then how is it stealing? Of course, one of the big problems is one doesn't know how the tab was obtained, but to sweepingly ban all online tab if there's a published version still seems rather unfair.



ArrowHead said:


> The trick is, these people's tabs are making money. Not for them, but for the host sites selling advertising on the pages where the tabs are hosted.



Well then maybe the publishing companies should learn and follow suit in making their own tab sites. I honestly doubt selling tab books makes those companies a fortune.



ArrowHead said:


> So it's pretty understandable why those holding publication rights might take issue with someone else milking their cow when they're not looking.



It's understandable if it's clear the content came from their publication. A scan, a PDF copy, something else indicative that it definitely came from their book. Anyone can hear and figure out what notes are being played, so what's so criminal about saying, "He's playing 1 4 3 1 4 3 0 0" for the verse?



ArrowHead said:


> I think todays generation of musicians needs to spend less time trying to justify their entitlement to someone else's art, and spend more time taking back the power and control over their own.



I still fail to see how knowing the notes someone is playing is, in your words, "entitlement to someone else's art". It's open musical information. Some can figure it out by themselves when some others can't. What's the difference between the two people in regards to entitlement? Should the advanced player also buy a tab book instead of figuring out the song themselves? 


Rev.


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## ArrowHead (Aug 24, 2013)

Rev, 

The part where you PUBLISH it, in any form, for any reason, is where it's illegal. You're free to figure it by ear. Or write it down for a friend. Once you post a transcription, lead sheet, or tab online, you're producing a copy of that person's work without a legal right to.

You've got lots of interesting personal points. Unfortunately, none of them reflect the actual laws here. Please don't get angry at ME for that.


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## ArrowHead (Aug 24, 2013)

Rev2010 said:


> I still fail to see how knowing the notes someone is playing is, in your words, "entitlement to someone else's art".



It isn't. you can figure it out by ear all you'd like, or transcribe it. Whatever you like.

The part that's entitlement is where you feel it's okay to create a transcription of someone else's piece of music, and host it on the internet for consumption of the general public. There's no reason you should feel entitled to this, and the laws of publishing rights are pretty clear on these matters.


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## potatohead (Aug 24, 2013)

Señor Voorhees;3698645 said:


> No question that online tabs are insanely hit or miss. (usually miss) I personally dislike tabs, but every now and again I tend to look one up for a particular song to get an idea of where to start. I particularly hate the tabs where people don't use common sense with string changes, skipping strings where it's not needed, or relying heavily on open notes/single strings. Usually the single string method makes it more difficult, typically involving long stretches and fast note patterns.
> 
> .


 
I notice this all the time. Why would someone tab something on say, the b string at 8-12-15?? Why would you not use the g or e strings?? I don't get it. 

I use tabs to get my bearings but I almost always change positions (see above) and add or take things away depending on how it sounds to me.


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## Andromalia (Aug 25, 2013)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Good. Perhaps folks will learn to get an ear. Back before the Internet, you needed to have an ear.


Or a printer. Internet didn't exactly invent piracy you know. At the time, my father got his sheet music issued before the rehearsals and taken back after, so they didn't make copies. (Talking about a world famous classical orchestra here)
In the end it's all justification for the sheet music industry to protect its business and nothing else, pseudo-moral justifications included.

If I tab or write someone else's piece of music, that my work, not theirs. I do agree on the "no sale" thing because it would be profiting on the artist notoriety, but mere publishing for free shouldn't be a problem. After all, in the part of the world where most of the users of these forums come from, it's all about rampant capitalistic competition, not holding monopolies. My transcription is cheaper than yours ? Live with it.


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## Edika (Aug 25, 2013)

I could go on about whether is a justifiable or dickish move to pull out all tab books of Dethklok but they are not that expensive. I agree though that as long as you pay for them the least they could is be accurate.
While I agree with most of the guys saying about learning songs by ear and how back in the day there was no internet to spoil people, I would like to point out that back in the day most of the bands where playing in E or E flat tuning which made figuring out most of the songs an easier task. The technical content of a portion of bands has evolved a lot. So unless you have like numerous guitars to accommodate for whatever tuning the artist feels like tuning that day, a program like Guitar Pro or Power tab to change the tuning to what you have or a program like Transcribe or Riffworks that can also change the tuning of the actual song, slow down and isolate channels is quite helpful to learn a song.


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## mb_777 (Aug 25, 2013)

ArrowHead said:


> I think you missed the main point of what you quoted - you're most likely not paying scale the summit for anything. You're paying the owner of the publication rights. Most likely either management, a label, or in some instances (rare) the band itself.
> 
> So it's not the bands taking the tabs down, nor are they necessarily profiting from the publication of the tab book.
> 
> ...



I'm almost 100% sure that Letchford writes the tab books, and therefore it's him who benefits, since he's the author. I think in that case, it was actually the band who made the request for tabs to be removed.

In fact: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/1429205-post14.html

He does write them. But yeah, this is the exception, probably not the rule - I imagine with Dethklok, this isn't the case.


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## Antiproduct (Aug 25, 2013)

The other thing with this is that it is very hard to find those tab books outside the US! 
I either have to learn these songs by ear, live without them or pay the high prices of book+shipping+customs which would be about 45$ for the Scale The Summit book. 
And this really annoys me


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## Ben.Last (Aug 26, 2013)

This is just ....ing stupid.

Keep in mind you guys that are promoting going by ear, after you've learned a song by ear, you better make sure you don't then post that cover you learned by ear on Youtube, because they're trying to make that illegal too.


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## tacotiklah (Aug 26, 2013)

This reeks of a money grab by a dying industry at the expense of the consumer. I'm not sure if it's Brendan Small or a publishing company, but having the tabs of a song doesn't mean that he's going to be hemorrhaging money left and right over piracy. All this does is further promote piracy. If I've learned one thing about the internet is that the more you try to tell its inhabitants no, the more they will resist. Brendan Small (or the publishing company supposedly acting on his behalf) will hemorrhage more money trying to putting in infringement claims than the cases of infringement themselves.

Best bet is to just let the tabs go out there for free. Another possible thing is for Small himself to write a tab book and sell it for a reasonable price. By offering a 100% accurate tab book directly from the person that wrote the songs, he'd stave off a lot of false pretenders and give a greater incentive for people to not pirate tabs.

Frankly I personally would be honored if anyone thought highly enough of the music I wrote to want to learn it for themselves; and fortunately for me this has actually happened. I suppose it's a perspective issue and I always tend to side with wanting to share my music with others and not treat it like a cash cow.


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## Ben.Last (Aug 26, 2013)

Small (and the artists in general) has nothing to do with this; I guarantee it.


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## Metaguitarist (Aug 26, 2013)

Ben.Last said:


> Small (and the artists in general) has nothing to do with this; I guarantee it.



As my good friend Bender of Futurama once said, "I can guarantee you anything you want".


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## Interloper (Aug 26, 2013)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Good. Perhaps folks will learn to get an ear. Back before the Internet, you needed to have an ear. I'm SO glad I was forced into it. It was a bummer, a lot, I totally get how much it sucks at first, but I'm such a better, more balanced player because of it. .



I still remember sitting in front of my tape deck with Carcass's Necrotism in the deck. Playing like 20 second clips then rewinding over and over again for like 2 weeks teaching myself to play the whole CD sans solo's on an old Jackson professional Rhoads standard that still had 10's in it because I didn't know any better and even if I did I was like 13 so I had no money to buy a custom set of strings anyway. That must have been a wonderful time for my parents.

Definitely made me a better player. One of the things that drove me out of being in a band was having to constantly teach the other guitar player to play what I had written. Note by note, string by string, finger by finger. And the stuff I was writing was much closer to deftones, than to carcass as far as difficulty. Meanwhile, he would come up with a riff and I would just start playing along with it. He thought I was a wizard and I suck at guitar.


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## ArrowHead (Aug 27, 2013)

Hey neg repper - at least sign your OWN name to rep. Using mine is insulting. I don't give neg rep.


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## protest (Aug 27, 2013)

Interloper said:


> I still remember sitting in front of my tape deck with Carcass's Necrotism in the deck. Playing like 20 second clips then rewinding over and over again for like 2 weeks teaching myself to play the whole CD sans solo's on an old Jackson professional Rhoads standard that still had 10's in it because I didn't know any better and even if I did I was like 13 so I had no money to buy a custom set of strings anyway. That must have been a wonderful time for my parents.
> 
> Definitely made me a better player. One of the things that drove me out of being in a band was having to constantly teach the other guitar player to play what I had written. Note by note, string by string, finger by finger. And the stuff I was writing was much closer to deftones, than to carcass as far as difficulty. Meanwhile, he would come up with a riff and I would just start playing along with it. He thought I was a wizard and I suck at guitar.



Learning by ear is definitely great, but there's a big difference between being 16 and being 26. I'm not sure there are a lot of people out there with jobs and families that have the time to sit down and tab out a 13 minute long Dream Theater song. If they're going to make you pay, I'd much rather it be an "on demand" $10 for the book or $1 per song digital download, than the $20+ for the hard copy of the book.

Still, the idea that tabs can be illegal is baffling to me.


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## Konfyouzd (Aug 27, 2013)

Try learning songs on horns without sheet music...


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## Interloper (Aug 27, 2013)

protest said:


> Learning by ear is definitely great, but there's a big difference between being 16 and being 26. I'm not sure there are a lot of people out there with jobs and families that have the time to sit down and tab out a 13 minute long Dream Theater song. If they're going to make you pay, I'd much rather it be an "on demand" $10 for the book or $1 per song digital download, than the $20+ for the hard copy of the book.
> 
> Still, the idea that tabs can be illegal is baffling to me.



lol @ 26. I'm 34 and I barely have the time to learn to play other people's music anymore with or with out tabs. The point is not that tabs should be illegal or that no one should be using them anyway. Point is that learning to use your ears instead of tabs is something that a lot of new players never have had to do and when it comes time to play in a band environment, it shows.


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## Andromalia (Aug 27, 2013)

So, next is forbidding to show how a song is played to someone else ?


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## Ben.Last (Aug 27, 2013)

ArrowHead said:


> Hey neg repper - at least sign your OWN name to rep. Using mine is insulting. I don't give neg rep.



Counter repped both of you to make up for the sh*i*t stain.


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## ArrowHead (Aug 27, 2013)

Ben.Last said:


> Counter repped both of you to make up for the sh*i*t stain.



Thank you, that was really nice. I don't care about rep, per se. Instead, I was more upset that Rev was offended and thought it was me. I LIKE the rev!


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## ArrowHead (Aug 27, 2013)

protest said:


> Still, the idea that tabs can be illegal is baffling to me.



I gotta point out once more:

The way you say this is very dramatic. Not intentionally, I assume, but the idea that "tabs are ILLEGAL?!?" is going to get a wtf response from anyone, even myself. But then when you say "Publishing a copy of someone else's works without their permission when they're trying to make money off their own publications is illegal" it seems to suddenly make more sense.

So again, it's not the tabs that are an issue. You're still free to learn the song. To play it. To teach a friend. What you're not allowed to do is then post that lead sheet, recording, tab, or other form of transcription, and allow the general public to have access to it. 

And yes, there was a period of time where we got away with it. And it was awesome. But it lasted only a few short years, and nowadays even the remaining transcriptions sites often stay alive by simply paying proper royalties on what they host, and taking down anything right away they don't have permission to host. Which is WHY your tabs have disappeared. 

So instead of drama, and trying to skew things as "why are tabs being MADE ILLEGAL!??!!" Think about the fact that the removal of those tabs is what is keeping the rest of what you have access to here up and available. So it's really a blessing that you have what you have at all.

That being said, it still pays to work on your ear. I'm in two projects right now. Both of them this week expressed some sort of amazement of how I could pick up my guitar and play back what I'm shown, despite being tuned different, all by ear. Then these same guys expect me to tab out everything I show them in return. It shows quite clearly the relation of learning and training your ear, and how things get much easier to figure out the more you do it.

Yes, if your ear sucks and you're just starting, you won't be able to figure out Dream Theater. But then, the same guys who can't figure it out are likely the same guys who will stick to every mistake and wrong bit in the transcription you follow, because your ear isn't telling you differently.

Start slow. Figure out simple stuff by ear. Hear it, Hum it, then play it. The more you do it, the less you'll be searching around for each note and the more you'll hear each interval, and hear the overall tonality of the piece. Which then means you're playing familiar shapes and patterns, and no longer worrying about each note one at a time.


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## Ben.Last (Aug 27, 2013)

ArrowHead, it's a bit different, in many cases, than publishing a copy of someone else's work without permission, because, a lot of the time, it's not as though these fan submitted tabs were just copied from the published tab books. 

So, if anything, it's more akin to going to a speaking engagement, transcribing what you heard (which may vary slightly from what was actually said), posting it, then the "official" transcriber coming after you for infringement. Now, you may say that that's still justified on their part; I just happen to find the whole thing silly.

What it really comes down to is the fact that copyright law is currently a f*u*cking mess.


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## ArrowHead (Aug 27, 2013)

Ben.Last said:


> ArrowHead, it's a bit different, in many cases, than publishing a copy of someone else's work without permission, because, a lot of the time, it's not as though these fan submitted tabs were just copied from the published tab books.



What were the tab books copied from?

As guitarists, we tend to get preoccupied with positions. It's the same note, no matter where you play it. You play it one way, I play it another. A tab book, more often than not, is simply some guy like you or me who's paid to write out THEIR interpretation of the song. The key difference is simple: they first obtain permission from the owner of the publication rights. THEN they release the book. Typically to get those rights, it costs money. So they also need to recoup the cost of that. 

So when you put up a copy, transcription, performance, etc..., whether it's for profit or not, you're infringing not only on the rights of the person who owns them, but also you're infringing on the ability of the publisher to recoup their investment and make profit. Because if you haven't noticed, print tab books aren't exactly selling like hotcakes. 

EDIT - (Again, owner and publisher are often not the same people! Ex: You own a song's rights. Cherry Lane pays you a sum to publish a tab book with that song in it. Then they pay Wolf Marshall to transcribe it, and publish the book. You are OWNER. Cherry Lane holds the RIGHT to publish that specific work. Wolf Marshall is the transcriber. Me? I'm nobody, and have zero right to publish any type of transcription, of mine, Wolf's, or anyone's. Not without paying YOU, or getting YOUR permission to do so. I'm not only infringing on your rights, but also those of Cherry Lane who actually paid to create what I'd be releasing for free without permission. Who transcribed it, how accurate it is, how different it is, none of that actually matters. It's about the initial rights. For instance, an author selling rights to a book can't suddenly take them back because the movie they made sucks [Stephen King]. Likewise if the movie sucks, you can't just make your own alternate version and put it in theaters - you don't have the right. The author doesn't even have it anymore)



Yes, in a perfect world everything would be free, marsmallows would be healthy, and guns would only kill bad, bad people.

But in THIS world, for the entire first half of my life, this is how the publishing world works. And for the latter half, hopefully, as well. In the middle, there was a good 5-10 years of bliss where one could pilfer and share these things to an unlimited degree on the internet without consequence or action. Because of this, now we've got a whole generation with the IMPRESSION "gee, this was ok, and now suddenly it's ILLEGAL?". No, kids. It's always been illegal, the internet just managed to get ahead of the laws and entire industry for a while. 

And much as your youtube videos now get advertisements slapped on them instead of just being taken down altogether, soon the publishing industry will be pursuing such online solutions as well. Because one thing you're all right about - legal, fair, or not, people don't like it this way anymore and it's too damned hard for the law to control the internet from doing whatever they want.


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## mr_rainmaker (Aug 27, 2013)

its such a mess now,I don`t transcribe anymore,much less post any of the tabs I make,and if I do I don`t sign them anymore....


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## redstone (Aug 28, 2013)

Name the song "inspired by xxxx" instead of "xxxx", don't show the score, only tabs, and don't tell the tuning. Now you can sign... (and sell)


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## Dayn (Aug 28, 2013)

EEEEEEEEE THIS IS THE POLICE

WE HAVE YOU SURROUNDED MR TABBER


In all serious, it's an interesting topic. I might do some research and publish a paper on it.

In this circumstance, we have two fundamental principles of copyright law: 1, copyright only protects expression, not ideas, and 2, you infringe copyright by reproducing protected material in a material form.

The reason some websites are outright blocking tabs from some artists is because some wankers buy the books, copy them, then upload them. That is copyright infringement, end discussion. What the websites then do, is because they can't figure out what is ripped and what isn't, they would rather just completely disable all tabs for that. Much easier that way.

In general, my preliminary thoughts are that it is not infringement to produce a tablature after hearing something. It's just not 'official'. What raises an interesting question is to what extent does that affect officially licensed tablature published in books, derived from the same source: one's ear?

It's a really interesting area, so if I have time in the next few months I might publish something on it. In relation to Australia, of course... but the US should be largely the same.


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## redstone (Aug 28, 2013)

Tabs alone can be sold as visual art, games, work out methods .. As long as it doesn't look like another published tab.


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