# Rick Toone asking $1.5 Million for Tosin Abasi's guitar, "Sketch"



## Sermo Lupi (Dec 10, 2021)

I nearly laughed when I saw this on Rick's website. His prices rising to $10k+ over the last decade has been neither here nor there...he's targeting a certain crowd, I get it. 

I've been more leery of Rick's involvement with Steve Sjuggerud, an investment advisor who's worked closely with Rick to demo and promote his instruments since 2014/15. I assumed Sjuggerud was an endorsee for years before I discovered he runs an "investment advisory specializing in safe, alternative investments overlooked by Wall Street." His website bio speaks for itself; I won't offer any disparaging words here. However, I noticed on wikipedia that the owner of the investment firm with which Sjuggerud is partnered was charged and convicted of fraud by the US Securities and Exchange Commission for his role in editing investment newsletters in the past. Take that as you will.

I mention this history because Rick Toone's sale description for the guitar specifically notes it's an "investment grade instrument", which somewhat eclipses the usual verbiage of a custom luthier offering direct sales to his customers. I don't know that Steve Sjuggerud is involved in any way with the pricing of this guitar, although it's worth mentioning that he demo'd this exact instrument before it was given to Tosin Abasi when he became one of Rick's endorsees. See the video linked below. 

The price is clearly outrageous. Tosin Abasi is not Eric Clapton or Jimmy Page, and even if he were, "Sketch" is not the guitar for which he's known. I'd be surprised if his ownership adds any value at all, let alone $1,490,000. 

I've never seen anything like this, even in the art guitar world. Prices can be extreme--stretching into the tens of thousands, far beyond an instrument's material worth--but I've never seen a luthier advertise their instrument as an investment, especially not to the tune (or Toone) of $1.5M...

Thoughts?


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## ArtDecade (Dec 10, 2021)

Ugly guitar.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 10, 2021)

Make it an NFT and some weirdo will buy it.


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## cardinal (Dec 10, 2021)

He's clearly doing this wrong. The guitar itself is worth maybe a few thousand. 

But an NFT of a video of Tosin throwing it into a wood chipper is worth $1.5M.


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## TheInvisibleHand (Dec 10, 2021)

I personally really love that it comes in a sleeping bag.


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## StevenC (Dec 10, 2021)

Bear in mind Tosin's LACSs didn't go for anything like this price. This is just regular Rick Toone overestimating himself.


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## Adieu (Dec 10, 2021)

Say what?

How much does Tosin even make, prolly a couple hundred grand per year?

You could probably "rent" him as a live in roommate/platonic life partner for 5-7 years, including having him grope ALL your guitars and listen to all your BS too for that $1.5 mil.

And, additionally, you could then put "Tosin Abasi's toilet seat" and "Tosin Abasi's used toothbrushes, in lots of 12" on ebay to attempt to cash in your investment


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## Supernaut (Dec 10, 2021)

This is the epitome of "don't ask don't get". Reckon you can throw in a free pair of strings and a cable Rick?


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## bostjan (Dec 10, 2021)

Wow, 100% fail.

Tosin is cool, but do any people outside of guitarists and prog musicians even know who the hell he is? That guitar is ugly as sin and also looks like it is not even a practical design.

If this sale goes through, I'll be offering up a Bostjan Zupancic signature guitar for $2.7M.


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## John (Dec 10, 2021)

Mmmm, no.

Delusional would be an understatement over Rick's asking price, there.


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## ArtDecade (Dec 10, 2021)

bostjan said:


> Tosin is cool, but do any people outside of guitarists and prog musicians even know who the hell he is? That guitar is ugly as sin and also looks like it is not even a practical design.



Even among guitarists, he is practically unknown. To be fair, I've only hear about him through this site and have spent more time typing this out than I have listening to him.


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## jco5055 (Dec 10, 2021)

I mean go to Rick Toone's blog (which now I can't find), I'm not going to go into detail my own political views but you can see he apparently is an extreme libertarian a la Ron Paul; he mentions that the reason the world/America specifically has massive inequality etc is apparently because we are too socialist/not enough free market/need to close the federal reserve etc etc, which I personally have the opposite view, so from my perspective it doesn't shock me he'd be doing some shady/crazy stuff financially.

In general, I do find it interesting that the boutique world in general (and I'm not talking about Toone specifically, just really any guitar that's more than like $3k usd, and ESPECIALLY the Private stock/guitars you find at Boutique Guitar Showcase) the primary customer isn't like actual professional touring artists, it's at most the "blues lawyers" or people who if they do make a living off of music are like cover/wedding/corporate bands. A lot of touring guitarists like the cheaper stuff because they don't want to damage them on tour, and not to mention playing original music especially in rock/metal is not high paying so these top guitars aren't even affordable. 

It makes sense when viewing supply/demand, it's just always a slight like disconnect/almost "uncanny valley" thing to me where it's like the truly most expensive/top stuff isn't actually made with a "real" original musician in mind...this is coming from someone who would say Huber guitars are probably my favorite I've played so it's not like I think these boutique models are bad or anything at all.


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## ArtDecade (Dec 10, 2021)

jco5055 said:


> I mean go to Rick Toone's blog (which now I can't find), I'm not going to go into detail my own political views but you can see he apparently is an extreme libertarian a la Ron Paul; he mentions that the reason the world/America specifically has massive inequality etc is apparently because we are too socialist/not enough free market/need to close the federal reserve etc etc, which I personally have the opposite view, so from my perspective it doesn't shock me he'd be doing some shady/crazy stuff financially.
> 
> In general, I do find it interesting that the boutique world in general (and I'm not talking about Toone specifically, just really any guitar that's more than like $3k usd, and ESPECIALLY the Private stock/guitars you find at Boutique Guitar Showcase) the primary customer isn't like actual professional touring artists, it's at most the "blues lawyers" or people who if they do make a living off of music are like cover/wedding/corporate bands. A lot of touring guitarists like the cheaper stuff because they don't want to damage them on tour, and not to mention playing original music especially in rock/metal is not high paying so these top guitars aren't even affordable.
> 
> It makes sense when viewing supply/demand, it's just always a slight like disconnect/almost "uncanny valley" thing to me where it's like the truly most expensive/top stuff isn't actually made with a "real" original musician in mind...this is coming from someone who would say Huber guitars are probably my favorite I've played so it's not like I think these boutique models are bad or anything at all.



Man, you put a lot more thought into that than I did. I figured he was just drunk when he came up with 1.5 million.


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## jco5055 (Dec 10, 2021)

ArtDecade said:


> Man, you put a lot more thought into that than I did. I figured he was just drunk when he came up with 1.5 million.


i spend way too much time reading about politics/economics to not overthink things lol


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## TheInvisibleHand (Dec 10, 2021)

Do you think I can use Affirm to pay for this?


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## Adieu (Dec 10, 2021)

bostjan said:


> Wow, 100% fail.
> 
> Tosin is cool, but do any people outside of guitarists and prog musicians even know who the hell he is? That guitar is ugly as sin and also looks like it is not even a practical design.
> 
> If this sale goes through, I'll be offering up a Bostjan Zupancic signature guitar for $2.7M.



Dayum

Anybody wanna buy my EART Chinacaster for $3m? It's a lot easier on the eyes, looks and functions like a normal strat, and even has stainless frets.

And as to no one knowing wtf I am...well that's apparently a non-issue, so why not?


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## Demiurge (Dec 10, 2021)

Not crazy about the pickup placement. I'll find some other way to launder mon- I mean invest. To _invest_.


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## budda (Dec 10, 2021)

Priced for media attention, not a sale.


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## Crungy (Dec 10, 2021)

Nothing against Tosin because he's a monster player, but ffs. I think old Ricky would take a reasonable cash offer of a few grand without blinking.


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## ArtDecade (Dec 10, 2021)

Crungy said:


> I think old Ricky would take a reasonable cash offer of a few grand without blinking.



Yeah, but then the buyer would have to take ownership of that thing.


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## bostjan (Dec 10, 2021)

Crungy said:


> Nothing against Tosin because he's a monster player, but ffs. I think old Ricky would take a reasonable cash offer of a few grand without blinking.


That's the thing, though- this "guitar" looks like it's not even worth the price of the hardware that's on it.


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## KnightBrolaire (Dec 10, 2021)

bostjan said:


> That's the thing, though- this "guitar" looks like it's not even worth the price of the hardware that's on it.


but the PrEcIsIoN EnGiNeEreD ProPrIeTaRy CaNtiLeVeReD bRidGe is made of "aircraft grade aluminum" and pure pretentiousness, surely that's worth 1.5 mil


also I think it's hilarious how at this pricepoint he doesn't even cover shipping. All of my customs from other builders have had shipping included


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## CanserDYI (Dec 10, 2021)

Yeah agreeing with Budda, he's not even planning on selling it i'm assuming. This is like the tree of life guitars on Reverb, its an ad.


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## Demiurge (Dec 10, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> Yeah agreeing with Budda, he's not even planning on selling it i'm assuming. This is like the tree of life guitars on Reverb, its an ad.



Attention-grab, possibly, but still kind of peculiar tactic. Most other builders want to get the word out with nice guitars at good prices. A hunk of driftwood for a king's ransom, it's unclear what legitimate market is being pursued.


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## CanserDYI (Dec 10, 2021)

Is the way to becoming a pro luthier paved with making the fugliest guitars you can? I swear I see so many high end luthiers that just make picasso ass guitars that look like a kid designed them.


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## Adieu (Dec 10, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> Is the way to becoming a pro luthier paved with making the fugliest guitars you can? I swear I see so many high end luthiers that just make picasso ass guitars that look like a kid designed them.



No

You just need to salvage crap from a demolished farm and preferably make the hardware by hand with only an axe and a nail file and from the melted down or cut up remnants of a cancelled statue of some old racist pervert or populist dictator or maybe just a POS bike

Oh and it can't look anything like a guitar cause wtf wants a luthier that makes things that look like guitars? We got Asia for that


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## Sermo Lupi (Dec 10, 2021)

budda said:


> Priced for media attention, not a sale.





Demiurge said:


> Attention-grab, possibly, but still kind of peculiar tactic. Most other builders want to get the word out with nice guitars at good prices. A hunk of driftwood for a king's ransom, it's unclear what legitimate market is being pursued.



It's definitely not for media attention. It's been on Rick's website for like a week yet no one on this forum knew about it before I posted here. The media certainly isn't going to care. 

If I had to guess, Rick's trying to place the guitar in one of those ultra-rich music collections that live in storage lockers down in Nashville or whatever. Thus the investment angle, and the mention of it being stored off-site in a climate controlled location.


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## budda (Dec 10, 2021)

Why else would it be priced unrealistically


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## spudmunkey (Dec 10, 2021)

Maybe he thought "m" was for 1,000 like how a meter is 1000 millimeters, and it's really 1,500.

Edit: no, wait, he said MM which is 2,000. So for 1.5 x 2000, that's $3,000, right?


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## Alberto7 (Dec 10, 2021)

This happens every now and then in the fountain pen world as well, which I'm a part of.

Pens that sit unsold for $100k+ for yeeeeaarrss until someone actually buys it for some unknown reason, and the news make a bit of a splash in the community.

The people selling these things have nothing to lose, so they just wait it out. It sucks, but it happens.

The only difference here is that Rick has very deliberately attached his name to that stupid sale. Fountain pen sales are usually very private.


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## _MonSTeR_ (Dec 10, 2021)

For sale - second hand guitar with one pickup and extra string. Made from log with a hole in it. Sorry, no hard case.

Price 1 billion dollars...


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## Sermo Lupi (Dec 10, 2021)

budda said:


> Why else would it be priced unrealistically



Either he thinks it can fetch that much or at least a fraction of it from an offer from a wealthy collector. 

Otherwise? Bad advice. See my OP and this specific guitar's connection to Steve Sjuggerud.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Dec 10, 2021)

1.5mil... Lmfao. He must be a Vinnie Vincent Economics of Ripping off Your Fans and Clientele graduate.


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## TheInvisibleHand (Dec 10, 2021)

Looking at it again, the guitar looks like it should be a coffee table for a couple that homeschools their children.


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## Black Mamba (Dec 10, 2021)

Waiting for Essex Recording Studios to buy it and list it on reverb for 8 million.


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## Crungy (Dec 10, 2021)

It's a piping hot turd sandwich for sure. But as we all know there's a market for that.


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## Adieu (Dec 10, 2021)

budda said:


> Why else would it be priced unrealistically



Money laundering / bribe escrow?


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## budda (Dec 10, 2021)

Adieu said:


> Money laundering / bribe escrow?



Ah yes.


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## Loomer (Dec 10, 2021)

Cocaine's a helluva drug


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## Rev2010 (Dec 10, 2021)

That guitar looks like it belongs in the Evil Dead franchise.


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## CanserDYI (Dec 10, 2021)

Alberto7 said:


> This happens every now and then in the fountain pen world as well, which I'm a part of.
> 
> Pens that sit unsold for $100k+ for yeeeeaarrss until someone actually buys it for some unknown reason, and the news make a bit of a splash in the community.
> 
> ...


I'm fucking dead. TIL there is a fountain pen "world" and there are $100k+ pens. The fuck world?


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## odibrom (Dec 10, 2021)

Is he in dept or something... to the mafia... is his head on a price tag?


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## Alberto7 (Dec 10, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> I'm fucking dead. TIL there is a fountain pen "world" and there are $100k+ pens. The fuck world?



 I love it when this comes up, because it is very much real, because I had the same reaction when I first got into it, and because it's actually tons of fun   and, if you wanted to, it can get as expensive as collecting high end guitar gear.

I prioritize guitar gear (because let's face it, there's more use for it), but I've paid less for guitars in the past.


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## Wucan (Dec 10, 2021)

jco5055 said:


> I mean go to Rick Toone's blog (which now I can't find), I'm not going to go into detail my own political views but you can see he apparently is an extreme libertarian a la Ron Paul; he mentions that the reason the world/America specifically has massive inequality etc is apparently because we are too socialist/not enough free market/need to close the federal reserve etc etc, which I personally have the opposite view, so from my perspective it doesn't shock me he'd be doing some shady/crazy stuff financially.
> 
> In general, I do find it interesting that the boutique world in general (and I'm not talking about Toone specifically, just really any guitar that's more than like $3k usd, and ESPECIALLY the Private stock/guitars you find at Boutique Guitar Showcase) the primary customer isn't like actual professional touring artists, it's at most the "blues lawyers" or people who if they do make a living off of music are like cover/wedding/corporate bands. A lot of touring guitarists like the cheaper stuff because they don't want to damage them on tour, and not to mention playing original music especially in rock/metal is not high paying so these top guitars aren't even affordable.
> 
> It makes sense when viewing supply/demand, it's just always a slight like disconnect/almost "uncanny valley" thing to me where it's like the truly most expensive/top stuff isn't actually made with a "real" original musician in mind...this is coming from someone who would say Huber guitars are probably my favorite I've played so it's not like I think these boutique models are bad or anything at all.



Wow, guy who marks up item by a factor of thousands believes he's the smart one and everyone else is just too lazy. Shocker. /s


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## ScottThunes1960 (Dec 10, 2021)

Crungy said:


> It's a piping hot turd sandwich for sure. But as we all know there's a market for that.



And that market has historically been sevenstring.org - provided you’re an unknown or unproven builder.


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## Hollowway (Dec 10, 2021)

I think you guys are missing the point here. He’s going for the “1,490,000 price drop” bump on reverb after a few days.

In all honesty though, this is the epitome of, “a fool and his money are soon parted.”


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## Hollowway (Dec 10, 2021)

What if - and I’m just spitballing here - the actual “art” is getting someone to pay a lot of money in a sketchy deal that is literally named “sketch”? I think Toone is a performance artist.


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## ScottThunes1960 (Dec 11, 2021)

It would have a better chance of selling on the guarantee that none of the funds are going toward funding Tosin’s next music video featuring the choreography of buff snowmen in a desert.


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## Giest (Dec 11, 2021)

bostjan said:


> Tosin is cool, but do any people outside of guitarists and prog musicians even know who the hell he is?



Nope. Even old prog heads have never heard of him. Younger guitarists in general maybe, but they are all broke again until Gamestop stock falls back in the trash where it belongs. I think the heyday of Tosin's style is waning, he has rested on his laurels stylistically for too long. He has become more mundane in the application of his advanced techniques in the last major releases, but perhaps he will further exploit his remarkable personal aptitude for uniquely combining disparate styles and tones in the future. I hope so, he's too talented to pigeon hole himself with AAL for much longer in my opinion.


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## Pietjepieter (Dec 11, 2021)

Well, the guitar is for sure not worth the money.
I think they try to sell it as a modern work of art or so. Value of art is lets say different and weird...


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## Seabeast2000 (Dec 11, 2021)

Whoever said money laundering, let's just stick with that.


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## StevenC (Dec 11, 2021)

You guys ever notice Rick turned off comments on his Instagram page? Makes a lot of sense now.

Anyway, one time I emailed Rick about stories I'd heard that his metal necks weren't holding tuning under stage lights and he wrote back, and then posted to his blog, a story about fighter jets demonstrating that he clearly knows nothing about metal expansion or aircraft design.


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## Loomer (Dec 11, 2021)

Seabeast2000 said:


> Whoever said money laundering, let's just stick with that.


I still stand by my Occam's Razor-sanctioned explanation of this whole hootenanny just being the result of chopping up too many rails and furiously jerking it to an audiobook of "Road To Serfdom" or whatever, but I guess two things can be true at the same time.


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## CanserDYI (Dec 11, 2021)

Learning Rick Toone is a libertarian makes so many things come into clarity here.


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## TheInvisibleHand (Dec 11, 2021)

Maybe this is Rick's extremely passive aggressive statement about his ol' buddy Ola strandberg selling Indo made guitars for 3k+. Kind of like a "hold my beer" sort of move.


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## IbanezDaemon (Dec 11, 2021)

Plank!!!


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## Randy (Dec 11, 2021)

Lotta posts. So besides the price of the guitar, what's everyone pissed about?


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## jephjacques (Dec 11, 2021)

embarrassing


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## Hollowway (Dec 11, 2021)

Randy said:


> Lotta posts. So besides the price of the guitar, what's everyone pissed about?


Like, in general? I have this japanese maple I put in the yard, and it's the third one, because I keep killing them. I have no idea if I'm overwatering it or underwatering it, and it's just reeeeeaaallly pissing me off.


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## Adieu (Dec 13, 2021)

Hollowway said:


> Like, in general? I have this japanese maple I put in the yard, and it's the third one, because I keep killing them. I have no idea if I'm overwatering it or underwatering it, and it's just reeeeeaaallly pissing me off.



California? Prolly because California

Unless in the mountains, you pretty much can't grow it.


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## Lorcan Ward (Dec 13, 2021)

Hollowway said:


> Like, in general? I have this japanese maple I put in the yard, and it's the third one, because I keep killing them. I have no idea if I'm overwatering it or underwatering it, and it's just reeeeeaaallly pissing me off.



Could be wrong PH in the soil. Are you using fertiliser? or using any pellets? Animal urine is quite damaging to younger trees as is squirrels and rabbits scratching. 



Randy said:


> Lotta posts. So besides the price of the guitar, what's everyone pissed about?



The horrid pickup placement.


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## CanserDYI (Dec 13, 2021)

We're in Ohio and my friends Japanese maple just got taken down by Emerald Ash borers I'm not sure why, but yeah. 

Was a beautiful tree.


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## narad (Dec 13, 2021)

<<sitting over here with my two Japanese maples doing just fine>>


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 13, 2021)

narad said:


> <<sitting over here with my two Japanese maples doing just fine>>



Jeez narad, leave _something_ for the rest of us.


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## narad (Dec 13, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Jeez narad, leave _something_ for the rest of us.



You guys have floorspace.

Though you should see the Eucalyptus...


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## Edika (Dec 13, 2021)

Wait, this isn't the funny guitars thread?


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## Adieu (Dec 13, 2021)

narad said:


> You guys have floorspace.
> 
> Though you should see the Eucalyptus...



Stinky explosive trees? Gee thanks


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## bostjan (Dec 13, 2021)

Giest said:


> Nope. Even old prog heads have never heard of him. Younger guitarists in general maybe, but they are all broke again until Gamestop stock falls back in the trash where it belongs. I think the heyday of Tosin's style is waning, he has rested on his laurels stylistically for too long. He has become more mundane in the application of his advanced techniques in the last major releases, but perhaps he will further exploit his remarkable personal aptitude for uniquely combining disparate styles and tones in the future. I hope so, he's too talented to pigeon hole himself with AAL for much longer in my opinion.


Huh?

If I say that no one knows about Tosin except some guitarists and prog musicians, that's not at all the same thing as saying that all guitarists and prog musicians know about him.

Like, if I said that no whales live in zoos, except a few orcas, I'm in no way implying that all orcas live in zoos.


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## Andromalia (Dec 13, 2021)

Adieu said:


> Stinky explosive trees? Gee thanks


That's the eucalyptus-scented suppositories. The tree is supposedly normal.


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## Xaios (Dec 13, 2021)

Andromalia said:


> That's the eucalyptus-scented suppositories. The tree is supposedly normal.


I'd say that this guitar looks like it's been used as a suppository with whatever brown "stain" he used on it. Alas, I doubt there's any room left in Rick's ass for it to fit, what with his head being so firmly entrenched.


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## Giest (Dec 13, 2021)

bostjan said:


> Huh?
> 
> If I say that no one knows about Tosin except some guitarists and prog musicians, that's not at all the same thing as saying that all guitarists and prog musicians know about him.
> 
> Like, if I said that no whales live in zoos, except a few orcas, I'm in no way implying that all orcas live in zoos.



Not sure how you thought I was putting words in your mouth.


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## bostjan (Dec 13, 2021)

Giest said:


> Not sure how you thought I was putting words in your mouth.


Maybe I misunderstood "nope" to be a general expression of disagreement.


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## Giest (Dec 13, 2021)

You did. "Nope" as in not in the affirmative that many people know about him. Sorry for the confusion, thought expounding my tacit agreement would make it clear.


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## ElRay (Dec 13, 2021)

jco5055 said:


> ... he apparently is an extreme libertarian a la Ron Paul; he mentions that the reason the world/America specifically has massive inequality etc is apparently because we are too socialist/not enough free market/need to close the federal reserve etc etc, ...


 More like Rand, than Ron. The father is a lot less "The Rules apply to you, but not me" and principals-don't-matter/hypocritical than Rand.

I'll likely get *another* "I'm disappointed in you" nasty-gram from Rick for pointing these things out:

The "Building The Ergonomic Guitar" started as a free forum, then after a semi-sizable amount of user contributed information was accumulated, it was locked behind a pay-site. Theft of IP is not very libertarian.
The whole concept of government-enforced patents should be against the principals of the extreme minimal government LINOs like Rick/Rand, yet Rick uses a design patent to protect his IPNP. He tried to get a utility patent (the kind used to protect functionality/methods) for his "trapezoid neck profile"/"intersecting planes neck profile" (IPNP), but couldn't because there was too much prior-art, but he did manage to get a design patent (the kind for protected shapes/styling); however, he sells the IPNP based on it's functionality, protection of functionality/methods requires a utility patent and you can't use a design-patent as an end-run around an unobtainable utility patent. If anybody had the time/funds, it would be straight forward to have his IPNP design patent invalidated. Again, laws/contracts/agreements can be freely ignored to their benefit.
I am curious to hear what caused the dissolution of his working-relationship with Ola Strandberg. They were initially "partners" (maybe not legally, but they were working together in the early days, pre-".Strandberg*"


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## chipchappy (Dec 13, 2021)

I'll put in an offer. The last thing I need is another guitar though. It better come with a nicer case than the pictures


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 13, 2021)

ElRay said:


> I am curious to hear what caused the dissolution of his working-relationship with Ola Strandberg. They were initially "partners" (maybe not legally, but they were working together in the early days, pre-".Strandberg*"



Ola learned the game from Rick and the rest is history. The archs are pretty much the same, they just went different directions to stay in business at the end.


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## Hollowway (Dec 13, 2021)

Not that I’m super into strandberg or toone, but I’m surprised I never knew they were working on stuff at the same time, in that same forum. I need to go down that rabbit hole sometime and catch up on what all was being worked on and discussed back in the early days.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 13, 2021)

Hollowway said:


> Not that I’m super into strandberg or toone, but I’m surprised I never knew they were working on stuff at the same time, in that same forum. I need to go down that rabbit hole sometime and catch up on what all was being worked on and discussed back in the early days.



It's not all that interesting really, and you'll probably get more bummed than anything else since nothing really went anywhere.


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## Hollowway (Dec 13, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's not all that interesting really, and you'll probably get more bummed than anything else since nothing really went anywhere.


Lol, well that sucks. I will say that ergonomic guitar ended up meaning lightweight and ability to play in classical condition. Which are definite pluses, but not anything to get too hyped up about. I can’t say I feel any better playing my strandy than I do any other lightweight guitar.


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## Alberto7 (Dec 13, 2021)

Hollowway said:


> Lol, well that sucks. I will say that ergonomic guitar ended up meaning lightweight and ability to play in classical condition. Which are definite pluses, but not anything to get too hyped up about. I can’t say I feel any better playing my strandy than I do any other lightweight guitar.



I got an Original 8 a couple of months ago. The guitar is fantastic, but the trapezoidal neck doesn't do much for me. I really don't mind it, and it is comfy, but it isn't really more comfy than my guitars with a round neck. I love the lightweight, compactness of it, and how the shape allows for seamless shifting of playing position, but the distance between where my wrist sits and where my forearm rests is a bit small while playing in normal position.

At the end of the day, with the little experience I have with ergonomic guitars and the tons of reading I've done here and elsewhere, it seems like lightweight and playing position are the only real developments so far, and those have actually been around since at least Steinbergers.


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## Loomer (Dec 14, 2021)

OK I just read some of his blog, more specifically his Thomas Jefferson/Martin Luther King fanfiction and the one about "Francisco" and BOY HOWDY I have some feelings.

Like, holy fuck. Just absolute what the fuck. I need to try whatever this guy is on because his brain is clearly a BUCK WILD place to be.


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## wheresthefbomb (Dec 14, 2021)

Seems no different from the "high art" world. A playground for rich people to launder money. Someone will buy this with the profits from their pot farm.


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## Estilo (Dec 14, 2021)

cardinal said:


> He's clearly doing this wrong. The guitar itself is worth maybe a few thousand.
> 
> But an NFT of a video of Tosin throwing it into a wood chipper is worth $1.5M.



This. In all seriousness I wonder why more producers are not getting in on the action. Everything can be turned into NFTs, it's easy money right there. Heck even new 2022 model launches can be tokenised.


----------



## Solinvictus0 (Dec 14, 2021)

I could see that guitar being worth 1.5m some years after tosins career is over.. ya can't cash in on the future before it happens though.


----------



## Sermo Lupi (Dec 15, 2021)

Small update. It turns out my hunch about Sjuggerud's connection to the guitar was partly correct. He was the most recent owner before he gave it back to Rick a couple years ago.

An excerpt from Rick Toone's blog: 



> Sketch™ is the one guitar that has always been in the center of it all.
> 
> Sketch™ has been on more adventures than possibly all of my other builds combined. Toured with Tosin Abasi in 2011, featured at NAMM 2012, sold into obscurity, found and purchased by investment legend Steve Sjuggerud, fully restored by me in 2019, played by a seminal roster of incredibly gifted professional musicians: Tosin Abasi, Javier Reyes, Evan Brewer, Chris Buono, Harvey Valdez, Mike Dawes, Killick Hinds, Gabriel Levi, Roopam Garg.
> 
> ...



So Rick does own the guitar again and isn't offering a proxy sale. However, I guess we still don't know where the valuation came from, nor why owning the guitar is being advertised as an "investment opportunity". The fact it's last owner is an investment guru seems an obvious answer as to the reasons why, but it's still speculation nonetheless.


----------



## Loomer (Dec 16, 2021)

But will Tosin get a cut from the profit of the sale? 

This is very much a rhetorical question...


----------



## Alberto7 (Dec 16, 2021)

I mean, I'd be pretty fucking pissed if I was one of the previous owners, knowing I could have sold the thing for such a sum...

... assuming it even sells.


----------



## mastapimp (Dec 16, 2021)

Solinvictus0 said:


> I could see that guitar being worth 1.5m some years after tosins career is over.. ya can't cash in on the future before it happens though.


Never in a million years. The guy is a great player, but he's not iconic in a sense that his instruments will be collector's items or "investment pieces". A year ago he dumped a bunch of his personal guitars on reverb and none of them went for crazy prices (The Official Tosin Abasi Reverb Shop | Reverb). His music doesn't have wide appeal and instrumental guitar music is very niche. In that field of music, none of Vai or Satch's guitars that go up for sale ever approach 1.5 million. Tosin is popular in this forum, but is largely unknown to the general public.


----------



## dmlinger (Dec 16, 2021)

mastapimp said:


> Never in a million years. The guy is a great player, but he's not iconic in a sense that his instruments will be collector's items or "investment pieces". A year ago he dumped a bunch of his personal guitars on reverb and none of them went for crazy prices (The Official Tosin Abasi Reverb Shop | Reverb). His music doesn't have wide appeal and instrumental guitar music is very niche. In that field of music, none of Vai or Satch's guitars that go up for sale ever approach 1.5 million. Tosin is popular in this forum, but is largely unknown to the general public.



100% agree. You only see guitars from iconic artists and their recordings/performances fetch that price. The Hendrix Woodstock white Strat sold for something like $2M. This niche guitar isn't even in the same realm as a Blackmachine, which is still ~$1.3M less than what Toone is asking. Toone's firewood guitar is worth $5K tops, IMO. 

This is a pure marketing strategy to get people like us talking about him. Nothing else to see here.


----------



## StevenC (Dec 16, 2021)

Loomer said:


> But will Tosin get a cut from the profit of the sale?
> 
> This is very much a rhetorical question...





Alberto7 said:


> I mean, I'd be pretty fucking pissed if I was one of the previous owners, knowing I could have sold the thing for such a sum...
> 
> ... assuming it even sells.



I think the way Tosin got Blur was that he either was given or bought Sketch and then it was swapped for an instrument more to his needs.


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## Wucan (Dec 16, 2021)

Did the investment bro tell him it could be worth that much to make it seem like the "gift" was a lot more generous than it really was? Aside from attention whoring thats the only other explanation I have.


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## Alberto7 (Dec 16, 2021)

StevenC said:


> I think the way Tosin got Blur was that he either was given or bought Sketch and then it was swapped for an instrument more to his needs.



LOL and here I was thinking Sketch was Tosin's fugly but allegedly very comfy guitar. TIL that Sketch is the even uglier sister of Tosin's already ugly guitar.

Thanks for enlightening me.


----------



## StevenC (Dec 16, 2021)

Alberto7 said:


> LOL and here I was thinking Sketch was Tosin's fugly but allegedly very comfy guitar. TIL that Sketch is the even uglier sister of Tosin's already ugly guitar.
> 
> Thanks for enlightening me.


Nah he still has Blur. Just doesn't tour with it much anymore because of tuning instability on stage. That's why Javier got a Strandberg for playing those songs, so Tosin could have his back.


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## ArtDecade (Dec 16, 2021)

StevenC said:


> Nah he still has Blur.


----------



## Alberto7 (Dec 16, 2021)

StevenC said:


> Nah he still has Blur. Just doesn't tour with it much anymore because of tuning instability on stage. That's why Javier got a Strandberg for playing those songs, so Tosin could have his back.



Aaah makes sense. I guess tuning stability because of the hot stage lights and the metal neck? ... Allegedly.

I saw him play Physical Education live with Blur in (I think) 2014 before TJoM came out. As ugly as the guitar is, I gotta say it's got stage presence. I brought over a musician, non-guitarist friend with me to that gig, and he couldn't stop laughing at the "botched tree with too many strings". It was great.


----------



## StevenC (Dec 16, 2021)

ArtDecade said:


>


But people don't seem to be into Song 2 from the new AAL album


----------



## asopala (Dec 16, 2021)

Alberto7 said:


> Aaah makes sense. I guess tuning stability because of the hot stage lights and the metal neck? ... Allegedly.
> 
> I saw him play Physical Education live with Blur in (I think) 2014 before TJoM came out. As ugly as the guitar is, I gotta say it's got stage presence. I brought over a musician, non-guitarist friend with me to that gig, and he couldn't stop laughing at the "botched tree with too many strings". It was great.



I will say, it stands out. It looks weird, and for entertainment purposes, it does its job. Would I ever buy one? Obviously no. But then again, you remember it. I remember in 2013--I think--the tour with Meshuggah in Chicago, he had it laid down on a speaker during Intronaut's set, and it was definitely the talk of the front row, cause we were trying to figure out what it was cause it was so weird. But then again, if that's the point, then there you go.


----------



## jco5055 (Dec 17, 2021)

Loomer said:


> OK I just read some of his blog, more specifically his Thomas Jefferson/Martin Luther King fanfiction and the one about "Francisco" and BOY HOWDY I have some feelings.
> 
> Like, holy fuck. Just absolute what the fuck. I need to try whatever this guy is on because his brain is clearly a BUCK WILD place to be.



So he seems to believe the Federal Reserve created Covid? Jesus


----------



## Musiscience (Dec 17, 2021)

Not even 59 LPs go for that price. No one is going to pay 1.5M for that thing.


----------



## Tree (Dec 17, 2021)

ArtDecade said:


>





StevenC said:


> But people don't seem to be into Song 2 from the new AAL album



Close the thread. We're done. Nothing else needs to be said.


----------



## Loomer (Dec 17, 2021)

jco5055 said:


> So he seems to believe the Federal Reserve created Covid? Jesus



And Martin Luther King came back from the dead to say that vaccines are literally the same thing as segregation. Dude sure is having a normal one over here!


----------



## nickgray (Dec 18, 2021)

Look at the neck of this abomination. What in holy fuck's name is this...




Is this supposed to be more ergonomic? Or he just could not have been bothered to shape the whole thing? Take a plank of wood, round the edges, and call it a day. And what is going on with those comically large side dots? Why're not in a straight line? Why _everything_?


----------



## Masoo2 (Dec 18, 2021)

Regardless of the (very justified) divisive thoughts Toone has generated with this price and his personal views, I *really* wish more builders (especially those in the semi-custom or production realm) would utilize a similar lower horn design:

















I know he's not the first to do this, Klein comes to mind as a potential originator, but I just love how it affords a classical-style fretboard position while keeping the bridge as far to the right as possible:











Strandbergs take a different approach by placing the right leg contour towards the read of the body rather than the side:













nickgray said:


> Look at the neck of this abomination. What in holy fuck's name is this...
> 
> Is this supposed to be more ergonomic? Or he just could not have been bothered to shape the whole thing? Take a plank of wood, round the edges, and call it a day. And what is going on with those comically large side dots? Why're not in a straight line? Why _everything_?



It's his IPNP profile. Kinda similar kinda not to the Endurneck, but I recall during the initial .strandberg* craze that many were opting to order their customs with the IPNP for comfort reasons over the Endurneck:


----------



## Hollowway (Dec 18, 2021)

Loomer said:


> OK I just read some of his blog, more specifically his Thomas Jefferson/Martin Luther King fanfiction and the one about "Francisco" and BOY HOWDY I have some feelings.
> 
> Like, holy fuck. Just absolute what the fuck. I need to try whatever this guy is on because his brain is clearly a BUCK WILD place to be.


Well, he’s selling a rudimentary guitar featuring a bunch of half-baked solutions to problems that don’t exist for $1.5 million. So it would be a shocker if he wasn’t a fringe lunatic. 

But where did you see his blog? I want to see wtf he’s on about.


----------



## Loomer (Dec 18, 2021)

Hollowway said:


> Well, he’s selling a rudimentary guitar featuring a bunch of half-baked solutions to problems that don’t exist for $1.5 million. So it would be a shocker if he wasn’t a fringe lunatic.
> 
> But where did you see his blog? I want to see wtf he’s on about.



Same as his regular site, just with a .org at the end. It's a real trip


----------



## nickgray (Dec 18, 2021)

Masoo2 said:


> It's his IPNP profile



Oh, so there is an angle... well, I just assumed it was flat, I guess it's the ridiculous price and looks of the guitar


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Dec 18, 2021)

Hollowway said:


> Well, he’s selling a rudimentary guitar featuring a bunch of half-baked solutions to problems that don’t exist for $1.5 million. So it would be a shocker if he wasn’t a fringe lunatic.
> 
> But where did you see his blog? I want to see wtf he’s on about.



Let's get a couple things straight: the instruments he makes are not rudimentary nor are they half baked. 

You can dislike the design (which, by the way, this place FUCKING LOVED not too long ago), and think he's nuts, because he is, but he's no slouch. 



Really, if there's one take away from the pile-on that is this thread, is you can be as ridiculous as you want _until you charge too much_.


----------



## Sermo Lupi (Dec 18, 2021)

StevenC said:


> I think the way Tosin got Blur was that he either was given or bought Sketch and then it was swapped for an instrument more to his needs.



That's where "Sketch" gets its name. Rick's instruments are built around proprietary hardware that he designs, and he'd only completed work for a 7-string guitar at that point. So he cobbled together a 7-string build to give to Tosin as a "sketch" for the tailor-made 8-string Rick would build him later. 



MaxOfMetal said:


> Let's get a couple things straight: the instruments he makes are not rudimentary nor are they half baked.
> 
> You can dislike the design (which, by the way, this place FUCKING LOVED not too long ago), and think he's nuts, because he is, but he's no slouch.
> 
> ...



Appraisals of the quality of Rick's work depend on who you ask. I have a lot of respect for what he does, so I don't want to be too negative here. 

From the handful of guitars that went to owners who I know personally, they were not perfect guitars. The sense I got from it was that Rick went the driftwood approach for practical as well as artistic reasons. 

There's no arguing with the quality of the hardware, of course. It's milled to exacting specifications and tolerances are astronomically small. Yet Rick's designs incorporated more and more millwork as time went on, and he stopped doing high-grade woodworking. 

It's the same old story. Many small luthiers can't start projects over if they make a mistake, and questionable fit and finish is something we hear about time and again on this forum regarding custom instruments. Rick was smart about it in the sense that he stopped doing exacting woodwork and put the focus on his CAD skills instead. 

Having said all that, I do think Rick enjoys the interplay between rough woodworking and space-age hardware. I don't doubt that he went that direction for artistic reasons, it's just that I've seen plenty of evidence for practical reasons as well. 

As for the piling on, I think people are just joking around for obvious reasons. The aesthetics are admittedly polarizing.


----------



## Hollowway (Dec 18, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Let's get a couple things straight: the instruments he makes are not rudimentary nor are they half baked.
> 
> You can dislike the design (which, by the way, this place FUCKING LOVED not too long ago), and think he's nuts, because he is, but he's no slouch.
> 
> ...



Well, maybe I'm misinformed. As I understand it, the ergonomic features that he (and Ola) came up with have no scientific studies or medical backing to justify the body shape or IPNP (or endurneck) designs. They're just what he thinks makes sense. If there is some sort of proof, or even studies underway, that these are actually solving some problem that current neck designs or body designs have, then I am unaware of it. That's what I mean by half baked, and solving problems that don't exist. Other wise, it's just a design choice based on his logic.

And by rudimentary, I mean that it's a slab of wood design. I don't see any remarkable skill or technique used in creating the body. There was no Aristides-like development of material and mould, artisan-level carving, or any other particular thing going on with the guitar to justify that price tag. It's just a slab of wood design, much like a strandberg is a slab of wood, ikea-esque body.

That's not to say I dislike the design, or the looks of it. The design IS cool, and I like it. I just disagree that the elements in here have any justification beyond design and that the body and neck have anything going on exceptional that justifies such a price tag.

Perhaps we're just disagreeing on semantics. I like his design, and I know he's carefully thought it out, but I also think his ideas about the ergonomics are half-baked, because he's never moved beyond the thought stage. Again, maybe I haven't done my homework, and these elements have been proven to solve problems in current guitar designs. Otherwise I think to "fully bake" it he would need to do some trials and see if these innovations actually helped people physically. Not to draw a direct comparison, but there are loads of ergonomic designs out there for necks - endurneck, IPNP, Etherial thumb tesselation, etc. But I've yet to see that these contribute to the well being of the player in an objective way.

Sorry to derail, though. I didn't mean for this to come across as a slight against his designs, or to imply he’s a slouch. And maybe I should have come up with words that have more neutral connotations than half-baked and rudimentary. (Based on what people are saying about his blog, I’ll withhold judgement on whether he’s a fringe lunatic, though. )


----------



## narad (Dec 19, 2021)

Masoo2 said:


> Regardless of the (very justified) divisive thoughts Toone has generated with this price and his personal views, I *really* wish more builders (especially those in the semi-custom or production realm) would utilize a similar lower horn design:



Yea, I'm usually the first guy to toot my own lower horn, but that design's really excellent. I have a custom Klein on order because of it.


----------



## StevenC (Dec 19, 2021)

Hollowway said:


> Well, maybe I'm misinformed. As I understand it, the ergonomic features that he (and Ola) came up with have no scientific studies or medical backing to justify the body shape or IPNP (or endurneck) designs. They're just what he thinks makes sense. If there is some sort of proof, or even studies underway, that these are actually solving some problem that current neck designs or body designs have, then I am unaware of it. That's what I mean by half baked, and solving problems that don't exist. Other wise, it's just a design choice based on his logic.
> 
> And by rudimentary, I mean that it's a slab of wood design. I don't see any remarkable skill or technique used in creating the body. There was no Aristides-like development of material and mould, artisan-level carving, or any other particular thing going on with the guitar to justify that price tag. It's just a slab of wood design, much like a strandberg is a slab of wood, ikea-esque body.
> 
> ...


Ergonomics is one of those fields where its hard to design studies to prove anything useful and impossible to prove anything universal. We know there are particular postures that are better for longevity than others so ergonomic features aim to promote those postures. There's medical backing that bent wrists and bad posture when playing guitar will cause damage, though. 

However being economics, there is by definition no one size fits all approach. For some people they will have the skeletal geometry that classical position has no benefit; some will find round necks to best promote a straight wrist and some will work best with various angular necks. The point of ergonomics isn't to find the perfect shape, but to find a variety of designs to help tailor the job to the individual.

So all these features are economic features, but it they were designed with Tosin in mind I might pick it up and be unable to use it and that doesn't mean it's unergonomic. You can see above the picture of Evan Brewer with his wrist very bent despite the claimed ergonomics, and the differences in the two Klein pictures.


----------



## Hollowway (Dec 20, 2021)

StevenC said:


> Ergonomics is one of those fields where its hard to design studies to prove anything useful and impossible to prove anything universal. We know there are particular postures that are better for longevity than others so ergonomic features aim to promote those postures. There's medical backing that bent wrists and bad posture when playing guitar will cause damage, though.
> 
> However being economics, there is by definition no one size fits all approach. For some people they will have the skeletal geometry that classical position has no benefit; some will find round necks to best promote a straight wrist and some will work best with various angular necks. The point of ergonomics isn't to find the perfect shape, but to find a variety of designs to help tailor the job to the individual.
> 
> So all these features are economic features, but it they were designed with Tosin in mind I might pick it up and be unable to use it and that doesn't mean it's unergonomic. You can see above the picture of Evan Brewer with his wrist very bent despite the claimed ergonomics, and the differences in the two Klein pictures.



Yeah, you're right about that. I guess I'm just not sure that the neck design actually helps in any way. I know I'm probably being a stick in the mud about this, but I feel like a lot of the stuff on these unusual neck profiles are the marketing of different ideas as science. I know it's not limited to guitars, as there are loads of products that claim to help your body in some way with no actual proof. And like you say, maybe it DID help Tosin.

I also know that some of the stuff Toone has done was designed carefully with the individual user in mind. I really dig that stuff. But I'm not aware that the IPNP (and a couple of other elements) is one of those things, which is why I'm super skeptical of that and Ola's endurneck. 

(I also find it funny that autocorrect keeps changing "ergonomic" to "economic" as that's kind of the point with a lot of ergonomic products, lol.) 

It's also interesting that he hates Floyd's so much. I'm not entirely sure why, and I'd be shocked if it was just a "I find them hard to set up" issue. I know he's developing his own trem, so I'm curious what the change is going to be there.


----------



## Hollowway (Dec 20, 2021)

narad said:


> Yea, I'm usually the first guy to toot my own lower horn, but that design's really excellent. I have a custom Klein on order because of it.



Same. Shoot, I'll take a lower horn that just let's me access the higher frets easily, at this point. No one should have to do a Cooley on their lower horn to get to higher frets.


----------



## StevenC (Dec 20, 2021)

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, you're right about that. I guess I'm just not sure that the neck design actually helps in any way. I know I'm probably being a stick in the mud about this, but I feel like a lot of the stuff on these unusual neck profiles are the marketing of different ideas as science. I know it's not limited to guitars, as there are loads of products that claim to help your body in some way with no actual proof. And like you say, maybe it DID help Tosin.
> 
> I also know that some of the stuff Toone has done was designed carefully with the individual user in mind. I really dig that stuff. But I'm not aware that the IPNP (and a couple of other elements) is one of those things, which is why I'm super skeptical of that and Ola's endurneck.
> 
> ...


Yeah, there's totally a difference between Rick or Ola saying their necks have ergonomic benefits and their necks _can _have ergonomic benefits. Like the production Bodens aren't ergonomic because it's one size fits all, but when they were made to measure and tweaks could be made there's ergonomic consideration. Same with Rick's more production line guitars like S2s compared to Blur with a carve so it doesn't dig into Tosin's hip.


----------



## Hollowway (Dec 20, 2021)

StevenC said:


> Yeah, there's totally a difference between Rick or Ola saying their necks have ergonomic benefits and their necks _can _have ergonomic benefits. Like the production Bodens aren't ergonomic because it's one size fits all, but when they were made to measure and tweaks could be made there's ergonomic consideration. Same with Rick's more production line guitars like S2s compared to Blur with a carve so it doesn't dig into Tosin's hip.


Yeah, I notice zero difference between playing my strandberg and playing a regular shaped neck. In fact, I notice more of a difference in neck thickness than anything else. Maybe the endurneck IS better on the body, or allows me to play better, but I'm not yet seeing it.


----------



## Alberto7 (Dec 20, 2021)

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, I notice zero difference between playing my strandberg and playing a regular shaped neck. In fact, I notice more of a difference in neck thickness than anything else. Maybe the endurneck IS better on the body, or allows me to play better, but I'm not yet seeing it.



Honestly, adjusting to the endurneck in the beginning was kinda a pain because some positions would feel *different* from a normal neck, but it was the distraction of feeling the different facets of the neck while I was playing that kinda irked me sometimes. It made me more self aware of my thumb position than I needed to be.

By now I frankly don't even think about it and just focus on what's happening above the fretboard instead of behind, just like I always did. But it did take an adjustment period where I never really felt a benefit, just a difference.


----------



## Alberto7 (Dec 30, 2021)

metallidude3 said:


> As far as I know, Rick is trying to get what he thinks the guitar could be worth to at least one person. If he gets it, power to him.



Well yeah, but that doesn't mean the man isn't a bit cuckoo for doing so 



metallidude3 said:


> If I had an extra *50k* or so I’d be putting in an order or two with him, because I can tell you first hand, they’re worth it.



Wait what.


----------



## Hollowway (Dec 30, 2021)

metallidude3 said:


> Ok, so I just scanned this whole thread, because my buddy and I were having a tremendous laugh over Sketch and it’s price, a couple of weeks ago.
> 
> So, I’ve gotten to play close to a dozen of Rick’s guitars. My buddy that I was laughing with is a friend of his and drops off some builds every once in a while, to let him play and try out before they get listed for sale. Let me just say that I’ve never touched a guitar of Rick’s that hasn’t been the most amazing piece I’ve ever played. They’re literally comfortable in any position imaginable. I’ve played a couple of aluminum necks that literally are the best playing guitars I’ve EVER had my hands on.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you’re his target audience, which is awesome. I’m definitely not, but it’s good to see there are people that place such high value on his work.


----------



## xwmucradiox (Dec 30, 2021)

The Tosin angle is the weirdest part of this listing to me. This guitar was played for one song a night on one tour years ago. It would be like taking the most famous players in history and then selling the instrument they played the least for more money than the instrument they are known for. A Jackson Soloist SRV played for 5 minutes in a guitar shop for $1M.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin (Dec 30, 2021)

xwmucradiox said:


> The Tosin angle is the weirdest part of this listing to me. This guitar was played for one song a night on one tour years ago. It would be like taking the most famous players in history and then selling the instrument they played the least for more money than the instrument they are known for. A Jackson Soloist SRV played for 5 minutes in a guitar shop for $1M.


Yeah but there are people who try to pull that crap too!


----------



## StevenC (Dec 30, 2021)

xwmucradiox said:


> The Tosin angle is the weirdest part of this listing to me. This guitar was played for one song a night on one tour years ago.


This isn't even that guitar. This was never used live as far as I can find.


----------



## mastapimp (Dec 31, 2021)

StevenC said:


> This isn't even that guitar. This was never used live as far as I can find.


I saw them on the Joy of Motion tour and he was playing the equally ugly Toone guitar with the extra lower frets on the top two strings. Played it for one song (physical education, maybe?).


----------



## StevenC (Dec 31, 2021)

mastapimp said:


> I saw them on the Joy of Motion tour and he was playing the equally ugly Toone guitar with the extra lower frets on the top two strings. Played it for one song (physical education, maybe?).


Tosin used to use Blur for Physical Education and New Eden. Maybe some other songs. Then Javier got his custom Strandberg and Tosin didn't need to lend his Strandberg to Javier for those songs so stopped using Blur.

From what I've heard the neck would expand and not stay in tune on stage.


----------



## narad (Dec 31, 2021)

StevenC said:


> Tosin used to use Blur for Physical Education and New Eden. Maybe some other songs. Then Javier got his custom Strandberg and Tosin didn't need to lend his Strandberg to Javier for those songs so stopped using Blur.
> 
> From what I've heard the neck would expand and not stay in tune on stage.



Wow a dynamically expanding and contracting neck (TM). What will Rick think of next


----------



## Dayn (Dec 31, 2021)

StevenC said:


> Tosin used to use Blur for Physical Education and New Eden. Maybe some other songs. Then Javier got his custom Strandberg and Tosin didn't need to lend his Strandberg to Javier for those songs so stopped using Blur.
> 
> From what I've heard the neck would expand and not stay in tune on stage.


Sounds about right. I watched Herman Li's livestream with Tosin and Tim Henson, I think it was a concert for some Razer thing? Blur was out of tune the moment they started playing Physical Education. The cringe was unfortunately palpable.


----------



## Alberto7 (Dec 31, 2021)

Dayn said:


> Sounds about right. I watched Herman Li's livestream with Tosin and Tim Henson, I think it was a concert for some Razer thing? Blur was out of tune the moment they started playing Physical Education. The cringe was unfortunately palpable.



Yeah I watched this recently too. He had to stop playing to tune the guitar back up. Tosin looked like he wanted the Earth to swallow him whole  but he played it off well.


----------



## Seabeast2000 (Dec 31, 2021)

narad said:


> Wow a dynamically expanding and contracting neck (TM). What will Rick think of next



Only known case to need an Evertune.


----------



## StevenC (Dec 31, 2021)

For what it's worth, Blur has a uniquely thin neck so that might factor into it and other Toones with metal necks don't have the same issue.

I can't find the blog post from Rick because a lot of the older posts seem to have been purged.


----------



## I play music (Jan 1, 2022)

Seabeast2000 said:


> Only known case to need an Evertune.


I know you are joking but actually I think Evertune wouldn't work in that case. It keeps the string tension constant but if the neck expands and tension stays constant, it means guitar goes out of tune. And more than without where the string expansion would at least a bit counteract to the effect of the neck extension. I think.


----------



## Hollowway (Jan 2, 2022)

Yeah, I asked on of the companies on FB that makes aluminum guitar necks how much they react to heat and cold, in terms of expansion and contraction. He said they don't react to heat. And I was like, oh cool, they're _magical _aluminum! 

I'm still not sure why there are so many companies that make aluminum guitar necks. Bodies seem more logical. If you really want to make a neck out of something other than wood, metal seems like a weird choice. It's not amazingly easy to work with, and it's hardly impervious to temperature extremes. I guess I'm just not sure what the attraction is.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jan 2, 2022)

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, I asked on of the companies on FB that makes aluminum guitar necks how much they react to heat and cold, in terms of expansion and contraction. He said they don't react to heat. And I was like, oh cool, they're _magical _aluminum!
> 
> I'm still not sure why there are so many companies that make aluminum guitar necks. Bodies seem more logical. If you really want to make a neck out of something other than wood, metal seems like a weird choice. It's not amazingly easy to work with, and it's hardly impervious to temperature extremes. I guess I'm just not sure what the attraction is.



I think there's a certain novelty to it that attracts a lot of folks. Hence the companies mainly making them today cater to the post rock, sludge, doom sort of crowd. 

There's also a cult following of the old Bean/Kramer aluminum stuff who are older and have a bunch of disposable income now. 

Toone is something of an outlier here though, as he's making a very different product vs. say EGC or Baguley etc. They just happen to be using a similar material.


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## I play music (Jan 2, 2022)

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, I asked on of the companies on FB that makes aluminum guitar necks how much they react to heat and cold, in terms of expansion and contraction. He said they don't react to heat. And I was like, oh cool, they're _magical _aluminum!
> 
> I'm still not sure why there are so many companies that make aluminum guitar necks. Bodies seem more logical. If you really want to make a neck out of something other than wood, metal seems like a weird choice. It's not amazingly easy to work with, and it's hardly impervious to temperature extremes. I guess I'm just not sure what the attraction is.





MaxOfMetal said:


> I think there's a certain novelty to it that attracts a lot of folks. Hence the companies mainly making them today cater to the post rock, sludge, doom sort of crowd.
> 
> There's also a cult following of the old Bean/Kramer aluminum stuff who are older and have a bunch of disposable income now.
> 
> Toone is something of an outlier here though, as he's making a very different product vs. say EGC or Baguley etc. They just happen to be using a similar material.


It depends on what you do with it I guess. Not good as a stage guitar but it should be basically indestructible which could be an advantage if you want to take it with you on an airplane flight just for hotel room jamming. Or if you want to play guitar in the shower ;-)
Surely it will not replace wood but for the guy looking for something interesting for instrument number x maybe it's what they look for


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## StevenC (Jan 2, 2022)

I play music said:


> but it should be basically indestructible which could be an advantage if you want to take it with you on an airplane flight just for hotel room jamming


At Toone prices you could just buy a new guitar everywhere you go and leave it in the hotel room Iverson style.


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## I play music (Jan 2, 2022)

StevenC said:


> At Toone prices you could just buy a new guitar everywhere you go and leave it in the hotel room Iverson style.


True, I was thinking Baguley, Aluminati, etc. which are not cheap but obtainable. I think like 700€ for a neck, 2000€ for a whole guitar.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 2, 2022)

There have been aluminum guitar necks for decades. If built properly, there isn't a problem. I've owned a couple of Kramer examples. 

This particular guitar didn't work because they tried an extra thin, flat neck shape.

You can almost treat every Toone (and this goes for a lot of completely bespoke stuff) like a prototype, and it shows in this case.


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## I play music (Jan 3, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> There have been aluminum guitar necks for decades. If built properly, there isn't a problem. I've owned a couple of Kramer examples.
> 
> This particular guitar didn't work because they tried an extra thin, flat neck shape.
> 
> You can almost treat every Toone (and this goes for a lot of completely bespoke stuff) like a prototype, and it shows in this case.


I would have thought there is no problem under home or studio use but if you take it from a cold room onto a stage with all the lights making it heat up then it will go out of tune, not only the Toon. Brent Hinds also says his EGC goes out of tune on stage. It might be manageable however if you let it warm up on stage for a while before using it.
 at 2 mins in

Have you played the Kramer ones live?


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 3, 2022)

I play music said:


> I would have thought there is no problem under home or studio use but if you take it from a cold room onto a stage with all the lights making it heat up then it will go out of tune, not only the Toon. Brent Hinds also says his EGC goes out of tune on stage. It might be manageable however if you let it warm up on stage for a while before using it.
> at 2 mins in
> 
> Have you played the Kramer ones live?




If by "live" you mean a dark bar or nightclub, yes. Nothing on the scale of what Mastodon is doing. 

But like you said, it can be negated to a degree, and the bigger necks, like the old Kramer and Bean stuff would take a lot longer to heat up. 

If there was one thing that always stuck with me with the aluminum neck'd stuff I owned it would be how cold it always felt. Even after 30+ minutes, they just felt cold to the touch. That's why they played around with adding wood strips to the necks at one point.


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## Sermo Lupi (Jan 3, 2022)

narad said:


> Wow a dynamically expanding and contracting neck (TM). What will Rick think of next



That next invention would be the Toone Tone Shifter (TM). It comes equipped on all guitars with the Expanding and Contracting Neck (TM), but it's a separate patent. 

Base prices start anywhere between $8,000 and $10,000--actually the same as the filing fee at the patent office--but don't worry, that's purely a coincidence!


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## Sermo Lupi (Jan 5, 2022)

StevenC said:


> For what it's worth, Blur has a uniquely thin neck so that might factor into it and other Toones with metal necks don't have the same issue.
> 
> I can't find the blog post from Rick because a lot of the older posts seem to have been purged.



Apparently he had to migrate his website from TypePad to SquareSpace/WordPress and nearly everything was erased in the transition. A recent post claimed he'd be revisiting some of the old guitar builds on the new site, because "provenance for these instruments will increase the financial value for their current and future owners."

Again with the investment angle. I wonder if caution is due here.

I know in other markets (antiques, for example), dealers have to be very careful about advertising exactly what they're selling. Commenting on value is fine, speculating on investment opportunity is not necessarily safe (unless you're an investment firm).

I'm not saying the SEC is going to step in here, but Toone selling an investment opportunity (with Sketch), or making overt attempts to "increase the financial value" of his instruments for their owners seems like a grey area at best. 

As for the neck stability, I don't think Rick ever acknowledged there was a problem. He released a video a few years ago demonstrating the durability of his necks and neck joints, seen below, which maybe was a reaction to the criticism.


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## StevenC (Jan 5, 2022)

Sermo Lupi said:


> Apparently he had to migrate his website from TypePad to SquareSpace/WordPress and nearly everything was erased in the transition. A recent post claimed he'd be revisiting some of the old guitar builds on the new site, because "provenance for these instruments will increase the financial value for their current and future owners."
> 
> Again with the investment angle. I wonder if caution is due here.
> 
> ...



No, I sent him an email about it years ago. Probably 2014. Then he responded to me email and posted both my email and his response to his blog. 

It was just waxing lyrical about fighter jets and not understanding that aerospace engineers do account for expansion and contraction of materials in flight.


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## budda (Jan 5, 2022)

You mean we're not on page 8 because it sold?


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## bostjan (Jan 5, 2022)

Everybody loves aluminum neck guitars, but I worked at a store in the 90's that carried some of the Armstrong and Kramers, and we honestly had to send a lot of them back (at least 3 out of maybe 8 or 10 total), because they were junk (unplayable). Not sure if it was because of or in spite of the aluminum neck, of course. (or maybe something to do with the weather in Michigan?) It seems to be a super controversial thing to bring up because so many people are so vehemently defensive of them. I personally don't have a dog in the fight either way


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## Sermo Lupi (Jan 5, 2022)

StevenC said:


> No, I sent him an email about it years ago. Probably 2014. Then he responded to me email and posted both my email and his response to his blog.
> 
> It was just waxing lyrical about fighter jets and not understanding that aerospace engineers do account for expansion and contraction of materials in flight.



Was the neck test video part of the same thing? It was published early 2015. Either way, that's grimly hilarious.


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## StevenC (Jan 5, 2022)

Sermo Lupi said:


> Was the neck test video part of the same thing? It was published early 2015. Either way, that's grimly hilarious.


Nah, the neck test stuff was all relating to S2 stuff, mine was particularly interested in Blur. Though, I don't know, maybe Rick was addressing me and I didn't pick up on it.


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## I play music (Jan 5, 2022)

budda said:


> You mean we're not on page 8 because it sold?


No, we found a more interesting topic, aluminium necks


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## Alberto7 (Jan 5, 2022)

Sermo Lupi said:


> Apparently he had to migrate his website from TypePad to SquareSpace/WordPress and nearly everything was erased in the transition. A recent post claimed he'd be revisiting some of the old guitar builds on the new site, because "provenance for these instruments will increase the financial value for their current and future owners."
> 
> Again with the investment angle. I wonder if caution is due here.
> 
> ...




Maybe he's trying really hard to become the Elon Musk of bespoke guitars.
Trying to inflate the 2nd hand market with hype, so he can justify raising his sale prices and thus his profit margin? I'm no economist, but looks like an attempt at that.


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## bostjan (Jan 5, 2022)

Alberto7 said:


> Maybe he's trying really hard to become the Elon Musk of bespoke guitars.
> Trying to inflate the 2nd hand market with hype, so he can justify raising his sale prices and thus his profit margin? I'm no economist, but looks like an attempt at that.


Well, you're probably 9x closer to being an economist than Rick is. I mean, you could look at a beehive and determine that bees must be brilliant civil engineers with the strength of their hexagonal wax structures, or that they must be brilliant gourmets, since their vomit tastes like honey, or that they are skilled chemists, because their venom is potent enough to discourage bears a million times their size... or maybe they just do what they do without putting thought into why.


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## budda (Jan 5, 2022)

I play music said:


> No, we found a more interesting topic, aluminium necks



Far more interesting. Insert my obligatory RGI comment here.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 5, 2022)

bostjan said:


> Everybody loves aluminum neck guitars, but I worked at a store in the 90's that carried some of the Armstrong and Kramers, and we honestly had to send a lot of them back (at least 3 out of maybe 8 or 10 total), because they were junk (unplayable). Not sure if it was because of or in spite of the aluminum neck, of course. (or maybe something to do with the weather in Michigan?) It seems to be a super controversial thing to bring up because so many people are so vehemently defensive of them. I personally don't have a dog in the fight either way



Kramer stopped making aluminum neck instruments in 85', but they were pretty rare after about 82' when production numbers dived. But the quality was pretty dubious for the last few years. Did you sell NOS or used? 

I don't remember Aluminum Dan Armstrong stuff, at least not the necks. Some used an aluminum plate/truss from the bridge to the neck joint though. Are you thinking Travis Bean? 

The only 90's Aluminum neck stuff I can recall are some boutique reissues of Kramer/Bean designs, but they were crazy limited, I think single digits.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 5, 2022)

How well do EGC and Trussart stuff fare? I don't remember if James uses metal necks as well or not.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 5, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> How well do EGC and Trussart stuff fare? I don't remember if James uses metal necks as well or not.



I've only ever seen an EGC, never even got to hold it. 

Trussart are wood necks, I think all of them. But all I've played have been stellar, if not a little "boring" all things considered.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 5, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I've only ever seen an EGC, never even got to hold it.
> 
> Trussart are wood necks, I think all of them. But all I've played have been stellar, if not a little "boring" all things considered.



I'm mostly curious about EGC because people seem to love theirs, but this thread is scaring me on aluminum necks.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 5, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I'm mostly curious about EGC because people seem to love theirs, but this thread is scaring me on aluminum necks.



Grab a replacement neck from RGI or Baguley or something before throwing down the $4k+ on an EGC. 

Or go used, you'll be able to flip it at cost 99%of the time.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 5, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Grab a replacement neck from RGI or Baguley or something before throwing down the $4k+ on an EGC.
> 
> Or go used, you'll be able to flip it at cost 99%of the time.



Oh I definitely don't have an EGC in my future. I'm just curious to see if aluminum necks all can suffer from temp warping or it's just certain brands that have issues.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 5, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Oh I definitely don't have an EGC in my future. I'm just curious to see if aluminum necks all can suffer from temp warping or it's just certain brands that have issues.



It's not really warping, the material can just expand and contract, and if done quickly it'll knock the guitar out of tune, but once it hits parity with the environment it'll be stable. 

The degree this happens is dependent on the mass of the neck, how big of a swing in temperature, and for how long it's exposed. 

If it was extreme, we probably wouldn't see as many in the hands of touring musicians. Guitars with wooden necks and certain hardware configurations can go out of tune as well, so if you have to tune every so often anyway it's pretty much moot.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 5, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's not really warping, the material can just expand and contract, and if done quickly it'll knock the guitar out of tune, but once it hits parity with the environment it'll be stable.
> 
> The degree this happens is dependent on the mass of the neck, how big of a swing in temperature, and for how long it's exposed.
> 
> If it was extreme, we probably wouldn't see as many in the hands of touring musicians. Guitars with wooden necks and certain hardware configurations can go out of tune as well, so if you have to tune every so often anyway it's pretty much moot.



Warping was the wrong word, I think flexing was more appropriate. I knew it wasn't permanent, but I'm assuming a thinner aluminum neck is more prone to it.


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## woland (Jan 6, 2022)

I own a Rick Toone guitar and I must say that I've never had issue with tuning stability... man, 1.5 Million for the Sketch??? Well, I think is the market that makes the price: it's for sure a unique guitar, but I don't think it will be easy to sell it at that price.


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## mastapimp (Jan 7, 2022)

Sermo Lupi said:


> Apparently he had to migrate his website from TypePad to SquareSpace/WordPress and nearly everything was erased in the transition. A recent post claimed he'd be revisiting some of the old guitar builds on the new site, because "provenance for these instruments will increase the financial value for their current and future owners."
> 
> Again with the investment angle. I wonder if caution is due here.


I read that post and nearly spit out my drink when he mentioned saving details from one of his builds for "Sotheby's".

The guy is treating his guitars like works of art that belong in a museum, like they're going to pass hands and sit in a display case in somebody's mansion. The provenance is great, but auction houses sell guitars played by notable figures or have significance and meaning in people's lives. Are we going to see the Killick Hinds collection up for sale? No Rick Toone guitar has ever been in the spotlight to even get recognition as an "investment grade" instrument. Guy is delusional.


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## Roger Dat (Jan 20, 2022)

Like a hotdog stappled to a canvas sold for $18,000, or a blank canvas evoking an invisible "work" by a famous modern artist sold for 80 thousand, art is subjective.

Anybody whose played, or owns a Rick Toone creation can attest to the guy being a concept artist luthier. He makes very transparent feeling instruments and his ergonomic concepts are seriously next level. I've never played a better feeling or sounding guitar in my life and I've been diseased with serious guitar GAS for 30 years.

Looks are subjective, but feel and sound (TONE) are much more specific to serious players. The vast majority of the electric guitar community hated Tyler headstocks and most still do, but if you are someone who owns a Tyler you understand that headstock is a beautiful thing because Tylers are also epic quality instruments! Don't believe me, just ask Mike Landau, Steve Lukather, or Neal Schon to name just a few.

Toone just had that kid out of England whose regarded as the top acoustic player on planet earth (Rick Beato's words, not mine) sample one of his guitars and the kid called it the best feeling electric he's ever played. I saw the kid play it and watched his reaction. He was BLOWN AWAY as I was, as are any other owners of Rick Toone creations, because guess what: Nobody that owns one is selling it.

As far as 1.5mil for Sketch goes, I say if he can get that much for it - GOOD ON HIM! Tosin does private gigs in weird places for guys who fart a million bucks, and wipe their arses with 10million dollar bills. Those of us who know, know.


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## Alberto7 (Jan 20, 2022)

Okay


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## Roger Dat (Jan 20, 2022)

woland said:


> I own a Rick Toone guitar and I must say that I've never had issue with tuning stability... man, 1.5 Million for the Sketch??? Well, I think is the market that makes the price: it's for sure a unique guitar, but I don't think it will be easy to sell it at that price.



Well said. I already consider my RT priceless and it'd be the last one I'd part with if the SHTF. That said, if he gets a million or more for Sketch, our owner's equity will vault!


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## Seabeast2000 (Jan 20, 2022)

Roger Dat said:


> Well said. I already consider my RT priceless and it'd be the last one I'd part with if the SHTF. That said, if he gets a million or more for Sketch, our owner's equity will vault!


Bullets, gas, silver, gold, Rick toone shtf bugout kit.


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## Masoo2 (Jan 20, 2022)

Roger Dat said:


> Like a hotdog stappled to a canvas sold for $18,000, or a blank canvas evoking an invisible "work" by a famous modern artist sold for 80 thousand, art is subjective.


_famous modern artist_ being the key phrase here.

no one cares who Rick is out of a small handful of niche guitarists without any mainstream recognition and forum posters on obscure guitar forums. the cult of personality surrounding these no-names on guitar forums is hilarious like dude he's just a guy that makes some guitars, he's not some sort of Warhol or Shakespearean figure who transformed international pop culture. yes, anyone can list a guitar online for $1.5 million, that does not mean they are free from criticism of their actions. 

that's coming from someone who actually _really_ appreciates Rick's designs and would genuinely love to one day own a guitar made by him.

I see the same all the time in the avant garde fashion industry. like yeah dude I think Sruli Recht and Carol Christian Poell are insanely talented designers who have pushed fashion far beyond realms once imaginable, but that doesn't mean they made any sort of significant dent on the actual mainstream culture of fashion (unlike Raf Simons, Rei Kawakubo, Rick Owens, etc) and of course I'm going to criticize the _outlandishly_ high prices they charge and condescending fanbase they've developed over the years. 

and of course I also long to one day own a pair of CCP Prosthetic U-sole Tornado boots


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## oracles (Jan 20, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> throwing down the $4k+ on an EGC.



That's _if_ you even get it. Kevin's line of dissatisfied clients is getting longer by the day.


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## jco5055 (Jan 20, 2022)

Roger Dat said:


> Like a hotdog stappled to a canvas sold for $18,000, or a blank canvas evoking an invisible "work" by a famous modern artist sold for 80 thousand, art is subjective.
> 
> Anybody whose played, or owns a Rick Toone creation can attest to the guy being a concept artist luthier. He makes very transparent feeling instruments and his ergonomic concepts are seriously next level. I've never played a better feeling or sounding guitar in my life and I've been diseased with serious guitar GAS for 30 years.
> 
> ...



I would not be surprised if his stuff was truly tops, but at his price it's just out of my radar. Like I'm sure if I got to drive a Bugatti or something I'd also think it's the nicest car ever, but it's so unrealistic/out of my price range I don't get the car equivalent of GAS for it.


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## AboutBlank (Jan 21, 2022)

Roger Dat said:


> Those of us who know, know.



As pleasant and condescending as your post is I wouldn't be surprised if you are the investment advisor....


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## narad (Jan 21, 2022)

If Toones are these superlative amazing instruments, could some artist actually use one to make good music? "Those who know, know", but can't play or make music, apparently?

I mean, I love that there's a guy out there doing what Rick's doing, and respect the originality of his designs. I was in the process of ordering one when I had some unexpected health issues, so I'm not trying to insult his guitars, there are some I like a lot. But these sorts of dumb NFT-esque cash grabs leave a bad taste in my mouth, right there with people who try to pump the stuff up. 

The same shit was said about blackmachine. "Those who know, know". Francisco even wrote like a 4 page document outlining (in completely subjective fluff terms) why a blackmachine is worth $20. Then all those guys sold their blackmachines for $20-35k and the market disappeared. We've been to that rodeo. The problem with trying that same pump with Toones is that no one that people want to emulate is playing them. There's no Misha/Nolly factor here.


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## woland (Jan 27, 2022)

Hi!
it seems I'm one of those "small handful of niche guitarists without any mainstream recognition and forum posters on obscure guitar forums", with the difference that I don't even post on forums that much either  ...

I think there are a lot of good points in this discussion.
I also wonder, as Narad does, if the people who spend a lot of money for that hide-glued-Reissue-Historical-Yamano-Murphy aged-Les Paul or for a Dumble amplifier can actually play music.

I'm a musician (with or without recognition) and for me it's quite natural to think this way... but if we think about it, why should somebody be a prolific musician to have one great guitar? Sometimes it is because of the love of a quality, love for a good sound, could be a prize for a well earned achievement. Am I too romantic?
Ok, we also all know that the best guitars out there are owned by lawyers, dentists, doctors, that maybe don't even touch that instrument.
It is sad? Maybe, but we can't really judge, I think, it depends on the case.

Regarding the Rick Toone: I was very lucky to get it before all this hype, but my guitar is so peculiar that I don't even think somebody would even like it. I designed it together with Rick for my music (and this is one of his merits: if he likes the idea, he can really be brave and radical) and I had very precise specifications in mind.

As for the music played with this instrument... Well, I can speak for myself only and post here a live streaming concert that I did a few weeks ago on Facebook.
Maybe you'll like it, maybe not.
The only thing I'm sure about is that I've put a lot of effort and I've so far strived for more that 25 for a certain type of quality, compositions and sound.


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## mechanyx (Feb 5, 2022)

Asking this price seems like a really bad idea to me. Even as a strategy to attract negative attention, it seems like a bad idea. I'm going to try my best to be objective and be civil. I had one interaction with Rick over a decade ago about building a guitar for me but I stopped replying to his emails because he seemed unwilling to listen to what it was I wanted. I was previously unaware of his blog or his use of the patent system, etc. All very...interesting.

Also, this video of this dude playing it, why do they zoom out so you can see the lights setup? I don't think I understand the directorial vision here.


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