# Disappointed by my Axe-Fx



## zero_point_two (Apr 22, 2021)

Hi guys,

I record music in my home studio. Mostly Metal/Djenty stuff. I bought an Axe-FX 2 XL about a year ago.

On first launch, I remember I was disappointed by high gain tones. But that wasn't exactly a surprise, I read everywhere that you had to get your hands dirty, so that's what I did. For a year, I've tried a tons of settings, I've checked every possible knob the interface had to offer. I've checked all the relevant amps, tried a ton of cabs, including popular paid ones.

The result is always a little flat, a little flubby with annoying sizzle in the high-end of the spectrum. I thought something was wrong with my setup, or maybe my guitars/pickups. Or maybe it was just me being bad at making tones (which could be the case, don't get me wrong). I've wasted dozens of hours on this unit for a mediocre-at-best result, and I thought that was probably the best I could do.

Funny thing is, every time I see a demo of the Axe-Fx on youtube, it's either drowned in a mix and you don't really know what really goes out of the unit, or it's straight out of the unit and I notice the same issues.

Anyway, 2 days ago, I decided to give Neural DSP plugins a try (Gojira and Nolly) with the DI going straight out of the Axe Fx. I was SHOCKED. It instantly sounded great. In a few hours, I was able to have a sound that fit right into the mix without much added in the chain. The high gain tones are crisp, clear, powerful, miles ahead of what I could ever get with my Axe Fx.

Just to be clear, I'm not shitting on the Axe Fx. The Clean/Low-Gain tones sound really good and the effects sound amazing. It's just that I couldn't get a good Rythm high gain tone to save my life. It could absolutely be my own fault, but if that's the case, I really can't see what I'm doing wrong, and god knows I tried.

I'm not giving up on the Axe Fx yet, but I'm close to just selling it. So here's my question. Has anyone of you have a similar experience to mine, and if so, did you manage to overcome it, and how? Is it possible that my Axe Fx is "broken"? Does it just require a PHD in engineering? 

Thanks


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## laxu (Apr 22, 2021)

Can't agree with that at all. Used the Axe-Fx 2 for years and was happy with the tones I was getting regardless of genre.

Your output devices will matter a lot for the final result. Output volume will matter as we perceive louder as better.

The Axe-Fx offers a huge ton of tools to shape your sound. Try some low and high cuts in the cab block. Try some multi mic 3rd party IRs. Try running two cab blocks in parallel with different IRs that complement each other. Throw a parametric or graphic EQ after the amp block.

The thing about NeuralDSP plugins is that they don't have better anything than many others, but they do have very well made presets. So I expect that is mostly what you are reacting to. Look at how your favorite presets are set up and see if you can replicate them on your Axe-Fx. Don't take this to mean "I should set the mids to 6.2" but use the NeuralDSP tone as a reference and dial a similar amp model by ear on the Axe-Fx.


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## sleewell (Apr 22, 2021)

I have an ax8. I downloaded a preset from the fractal site called 5150 death and it sounded great with no tweaking at all. Seems pretty easy to get clean and ambient sounds too, the effects are amazing. 

Use whatever is the best for your situation, I actually prefer my helix with my band but would try to use the fractal for recording.


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## zero_point_two (Apr 22, 2021)

laxu said:


> Can't agree with that at all. Used the Axe-Fx 2 for years and was happy with the tones I was getting regardless of genre.
> 
> Your output devices will matter a lot for the final result. Output volume will matter as we perceive louder as better.
> 
> ...



I don't think my output device is the issue. The Neural DSP is taking the exact same route as the Axe Fx. it actually goes through it using an "empty" preset, a straight line if you know what I mean. I've also tried plugin my guitar straight into my interface and got the exact same result.

I'm pretty sure my volumes/gain are good. I'm used to recording at low volumes and my meters are never in the red. I also make sure to input trim a little when I use my LTD with EMG pickups (very hot signal).

As for the comparison, that's very good advice. Thanks for that. I kind of did the opposite. Meaning my first reflex after firing up the Neural DSP plugins and hearing how good those presets sounded was to check how they made it. Unfortunately I see nothing really surprising. And OD pedal before the amp with low dist (or none) and high level to boost the signal. The amp with not too much gain, 2 cabs with usually a dyn 57 as main + whatever complements it best and almost always no post EQ. This is pretty much the same template I use to create high gain rythm tones on my Axe Fx and still the difference is staggering. I'll keep trying and let you know if I have lightbulb moment (I hope I do).

Btw I'm already using 3rd party IRs (Zilla and ML USA).


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## budda (Apr 22, 2021)

Go post your preset on the fractal forum and see what other people can find. Without the preset, everything is guesswork.


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## FearComplex (Apr 22, 2021)

Try the Axe FX Engl Savage, FAS Brootalz and IIC++ models. I like Neural's models, particularly the Nameless but those 3 Axe FX models are in a league of their own imo.


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## makecamera (Apr 22, 2021)

I found that I had the best results with my 2 XL when I cranked the Output 1 level to max and had my studio monitors reasonably loud.

Does it sound the same, worse, or better via the headphone output (assuming you have a decent pair of headphones)? To me, my 2XL sounded much better via headphones.


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## Matt08642 (Apr 22, 2021)

Post a few sound samples of a basic patch you've made/customized that you think sounds bad maybe?


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## Shask (Apr 22, 2021)

I have found with the Axe-FX II, that it is really picky about pickups, and you have to EQ before anything else to get the best results. Without this, it can sound flubby and just weird on the low end. I like to use a graphic EQ first, and then just tweak the 250 and 500 bands by dropping them. That really helps on the guitars that have pickups this unit just dont like.


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## zero_point_two (Apr 22, 2021)

Thank you guys for the great pieces of advice. I'll dig in a little more when I have time, maybe I'll post a few samples too.


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## zero_point_two (Apr 22, 2021)

makecamera said:


> I found that I had the best results with my 2 XL when I cranked the Output 1 level to max and had my studio monitors reasonably loud.
> 
> Does it sound the same, worse, or better via the headphone output (assuming you have a decent pair of headphones)? To me, my 2XL sounded much better via headphones.



I have a decent pair of monitors and studio headphones. It all sound mediocre on both, Neural sounds great on both.
I'll give your output tip a try, although from experience, cranking the output knob usually results in numeric distortion, but maybe I've missed something.


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## makecamera (Apr 22, 2021)

zero_point_two said:


> I have a decent pair of monitors and studio headphones. It all sound mediocre on both, Neural sounds great on both.
> I'll give your output tip a try, although from experience, cranking the output knob usually results in numeric distortion, but maybe I've missed something.



That's what I thought as well, but that's not the case unless something further down your signal chain is distorting. It's in the manual somewhere. Output knob maxed is unity gain. Watch your ears though - Output 1 volume is the same as headphone volume, IIRC.

If you have the cash, I'd get an FM3 and compare side by side, to see if something is actually wrong with the unit. Fractal has a decent return policy (sans shipping costs). You might end up keeping the FM3 and selling the XL like I did.


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## budda (Apr 22, 2021)

You can also open a support ticket with fractal.


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## Thrashman (Apr 22, 2021)

I mean if you can’t make an axe fx sound good or find a preset that you like I’m 100% sure the problem isn’t the unit itself


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## Deadpool_25 (Apr 22, 2021)

The Axe FX stuff can sound amazing. To some people it sounds great right out of the box. To others it requires some tweaking. I believe you can say the same about the NDSP stuff. So it’s no surprise that there will be people who struggle to get a sound they like on one unit and the other unit is great out of the box. There is nothing wrong with that.

Sure, you can certainly get the Axe to sound great. If that’s what you want to do, knock yourself out. But if the NDSP stuff (or anything else for that matter) sounds great to you and completely fills your needs for your use case, maybe just roll with it.

Listen to a well-produced track made with the AxeFX, one made with the NDSP stuff, and one made with the Helix. In my opinion they can all sound great.

Some Examples:
AxeFX II: Plini - Handmade Cities
AxeFX III: Plini - Impulse Voices
NDSP: Intervals - Circadian
Helix: Jakub Zytecki - 2020 (live)


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## laxu (Apr 22, 2021)

Shask said:


> I have found with the Axe-FX II, that it is really picky about pickups, and you have to EQ before anything else to get the best results. Without this, it can sound flubby and just weird on the low end. I like to use a graphic EQ first, and then just tweak the 250 and 500 bands by dropping them. That really helps on the guitars that have pickups this unit just dont like.



I disagree. I used anything from low output singlecoil pickups to high output Mastertone active humbuckers and Axe-Fx 2 always handled them just fine. You do need to set up the input settings based on your highest output guitar or change them to accommodate each guitar. I was lazy so I just set them based on the guitar with the active pickups and it worked just fine for me.


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## laxu (Apr 22, 2021)

OP, check if you can use Fractool to dump your preset into text form and then you can paste it here. Fractool seems to be built into Axe-Edit but not sure if it's available for the older gen.


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## budda (Apr 22, 2021)

Fractool isnt in axe edit, thats fractal-bot. But yes you can export the preset and post it.


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## cardinal (Apr 22, 2021)

If the Neural stuff is working for you, just use that? No point beating your head against a rock if you don't like the Fractal. 

I hated the AFXII. No idea what firmware I had. Seemed to have an unpleasant top end and trying to warm it up just made it muddy. Could be totally user error, but again: if something else is working, just use that.


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## Shask (Apr 22, 2021)

laxu said:


> I disagree. I used anything from low output singlecoil pickups to high output Mastertone active humbuckers and Axe-Fx 2 always handled them just fine. You do need to set up the input settings based on your highest output guitar or change them to accommodate each guitar. I was lazy so I just set them based on the guitar with the active pickups and it worked just fine for me.


I am not saying it couldn't handle the input level. I am saying there is something funky going on in the 200hz - 600hz range, and cutting before or after the amp is usually necessary for a modern metal tone. Certain pickups really exaggerate this more than others.


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## mr coffee (Apr 22, 2021)

I've struggled a bit with flubbiness and fizziness also, it took some patience to resolve. I found that blending cabs and tweaking the hi- and low-cut on them made a huge difference, and with multiple cabs, yes that meant some hunting and trying different combinations, and really changing the way I listened. It became a matter of identifying aspects of a cab's response that I liked or didn't like, finding cabs that accentuated the aspects that I liked, then combining and blending them to get closer to what I wanted to hear. Another thing that really helped me was just going through all of the parameters and sweeping them through their settings, working on developing my understanding of how they impact the tone and responsiveness and how they interact. I know, though, that I'm still just learning and I have a long way to go, I know I've only scratched the surface. But at least I've gotten to where I have a core sound loosely based on my 6505+ rig and it sounds really good to my ear, I can plug in and play without the distraction of needing to tweak endlessly.

-m


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## RevDrucifer (Apr 22, 2021)

What specific amp models are you using? 

Certain ones, like Mesa’s, respond the way the real ones do and using familiar EQ settings/shapes is not the right way to dial in a Mesa because it’ll make them sound like pure flub. 

I never used a II, but I own a III, I’d imagine they’re fairly similar as far as tones and dialing them in though. 

For a while, I was really irritated with a lot of high end on the high gain amps. There was always something floating around the 3K-4K range that drove me nuts, a fizz that sat on top of the tone. The Cygnus update cured a lot of that, but before that, I was putting a PEQ after the cab block to dial it out. 

There’s also the multi-band compressor which helps a LOT with tightening up the low end. Leon Todd has made some GREAT videos on that and I highly recommend them, specifically for dialing in Mesa’s. 

And IR’s man, despite all the tone-shaping features in the AxeFX, I still rely on IR’s to get me 85%-90% of the way there, then fine tune it with everything else available. Don’t settle on a ballpark IR, find one that’s nearly perfect or else you’ll forever be trying to dial IN a frequency that’s not there or cutting frequencies that are there.


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## Deadpool_25 (Apr 22, 2021)

That’s probably why I love going through my real amps so much. I absolutely love my real 2x12 so that removes the IR as a variable. I suspect that drastically reduces the time and potential frustration in dialing in tones.


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## Matt08642 (Apr 22, 2021)

mr coffee said:


> I've struggled a bit with flubbiness and fizziness also, it took some patience to resolve. I found that blending cabs and tweaking the hi- and low-cut on them made a huge difference, and with multiple cabs, yes that meant some hunting and trying different combinations, and really changing the way I listened.



This!! As a rule of thumb I basically have all my favorite IRs in NadIR with different high and low-pass settings tailored to VSTs/amps I pair them with. In general I find you lose nothing by cutting below 80Hz and above 13KHz on any IR, and from there I adjust according to the amp and settings.



RevDrucifer said:


> For a while, I was really irritated with a lot of high end on the high gain amps. There was always something floating around the 3K-4K range that drove me nuts, a fizz that sat on top of the tone. The Cygnus update cured a lot of that, but before that, I was putting a PEQ after the cab block to dial it out.
> 
> ...
> 
> And IR’s man, despite all the tone-shaping features in the AxeFX, I still rely on IR’s to get me 85%-90% of the way there, then fine tune it with everything else available. Don’t settle on a ballpark IR, find one that’s nearly perfect or else you’ll forever be trying to dial IN a frequency that’s not there or cutting frequencies that are there.



I've never used an AFX, but I'm familiar with some of the disgusting high-end fizz - EQ after the cab is essential for me lol. It's also very true how IRs get you 90% there - I can spend 3 hours trying to dial in a tone and wonder what's wrong, then I see I've been on some random IR the whole time I didn't mean to be and switching it for another solves most of the issues instantly


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## mongey (Apr 22, 2021)

I don’t disagree with you. I wouldn’t say I was disappointed with mine when I had it but I def felt it was more effort for an underwhelming result. 

many people make it sound great , but it didn’t work for me.


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## nickgray (Apr 22, 2021)

As usual, no demos 



zero_point_two said:


> Neural sounds great on both



Set up a Neural plugin so that the chain is as simple as possible: boost (maybe) -> amp -> IR. Then, make the same chain in your Axe Fx, and use the exact same IR. Record both. Post the results. Post a picture of the Neural's and Axe Fx amp (and boost, if you've used it) settings.


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## The Thing Upstairs (Apr 23, 2021)

Try taking some of the presets and then modifying them for your setup at home. That's what I did and it has given me a base of really solid presets across many amps that I am delighted with. It's also introduced me to models I'd have never really thought of using.
I prefer the sound and feel of a real amp so play my AF3 through my waza into a beautiful villa 212. I have some good sounding IRs but there's just something about the AF3 into a real cab that I prefer

Cygnus is out - I was impressed by the changes since FW12 to FW15 but FW 16 is another level. It's like getting an axefx IV.


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## Spicypickles (Apr 23, 2021)

Lol, neural people coming in here to make you guys second guess your axefx’s. Brilliant tactics


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## budda (Apr 23, 2021)

Spicypickles said:


> Lol, neural people coming in here to make you guys second guess your axefx’s. Brilliant tactics



It only works if you arent happy with your axe fx or have a compulsion to jump to new gear .


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## AwakenTheSkies (Apr 23, 2021)

Spicypickles said:


> Lol, neural people coming in here to make you guys second guess your axefx’s. Brilliant tactics



Lol 100€ plugin from a new brand vs 3000€ modeller from a company that has been around for many years, used in many records and almost in every professional live show for the effects if not using the modelling amps. It's crazy to me that there's even a comparision. Without even considering the disadvantages of PC + Interface + Plugin vs a full hardware modeller.


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## budda (Apr 23, 2021)

Neural works for some people, power to 'em . That said, an axe fx 3 or fm3 offers more should a user want it.


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## Thrashman (Apr 23, 2021)

Shask said:


> I am not saying it couldn't handle the input level. I am saying there is something funky going on in the 200hz - 600hz range, and cutting before or after the amp is usually necessary for a modern metal tone. Certain pickups really exaggerate this more than others.



Maybe, just maybe, the frequencies were always there but us metal heads dial them out per standard to remove mud and woofyness.


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## laxu (Apr 23, 2021)

AwakenTheSkies said:


> Lol 100€ plugin from a new brand vs 3000€ modeller from a company that has been around for many years, used in many records and almost in every professional live show for the effects if not using the modelling amps. It's crazy to me that there's even a comparision. Without even considering the disadvantages of PC + Interface + Plugin vs a full hardware modeller.



NeuralDSP has been around for several years now. They are not by any means a newcomer in anything but the hardware modeler game.

Plugins from various vendors are really good nowadays, it's just another way to go and I see no problem if someone finds that to work better for them over an expensive modeler. These are all just tools.


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## darkinners (Apr 23, 2021)

Neural plugins strong suit is great default and artist preset, also the IR with mic positioning is quite versatile.
However, if tweaked, I still think Fractal sounded better than NeuralDSP plugin especially the latest firmware Cygnus. . The difference is very subtle though.


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## Spicypickles (Apr 23, 2021)

budda said:


> It only works if you arent happy with your axe fx or have a compulsion to jump to new gear .



Other than the select few in the “can you justify it” thread, we all have the problem jumping into new gear.



AwakenTheSkies said:


> Lol 100€ plugin from a new brand vs 3000€ modeller from a company that has been around for many years, used in many records and almost in every professional live show for the effects if not using the modelling amps. It's crazy to me that there's even a comparision. Without even considering the disadvantages of PC + Interface + Plugin vs a full hardware modeller.



I wasn’t being serious, but that first post did reek a little of product shilling. I don’t care one way or another, nor did I pay even remotely close to those prices. I am in the US though, but go ahead dude, have fun. I don’t have a home computer so I would have to do that before I ever got any of their downloads anyway so that would be an added cost that comes out more expensive than my FM3, personally.


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## Emperoff (Apr 23, 2021)

I would not recommend Neural DSP stuff to anyone not liking the Axe-Fx. However...


laxu said:


> NeuralDSP has been around for several years now. They are not by any means a newcomer in anything but the hardware modeler game.
> 
> Plugins from various vendors are really good nowadays, it's just another way to go and I see no problem if someone finds that to work better for them over an expensive modeler. These are all just tools.



I gotta agree here. Neural DSP killed my Axe FM3 GAS. I always said that modellers feel wasted on me, so if instead of spending 1300€ in 300 amps of which I will use 4, I get a 100€ plugin that gives me 4 amps I can use, then I'm happy (To be completely honest 90% of my playing is on the same preset ). 

My favourite thing about them is the cab section. Goodbye IRs!


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## Deadpool_25 (Apr 23, 2021)

I hadn’t played through anything in about a week. I fired up Archetype Plini for a bit through the HS7s and was totally digging it. Then I fired up Nolly and again was loving it. They’re great. I started wondering if maybe I didn’t need the FM3. So I fired up the FM3 through the same monitors and immediately laughed and wondered why I even bothered with the NDSP plugins.

Like I said, the plugins are great. If I hadn’t immediately switched to the FM3 I may not have noticed a difference, but for me the FM3 sounds and feels better.

That’s me though. Some people will prefer the NDSP, Helix, whatever. They’re all good. If you have something and like it, just play and enjoy. Don’t a/b stuff and preserve your money and happiness...and sanity.


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## laxu (Apr 24, 2021)

Emperoff said:


> I would not recommend Neural DSP stuff to anyone not liking the Axe-Fx. However...
> 
> 
> I gotta agree here. Neural DSP killed my Axe FM3 GAS. I always said that modellers feel wasted on me, so if instead of spending 1300€ in 300 amps of which I will use 4, I get a 100€ plugin that gives me 4 amps I can use, then I'm happy (To be completely honest 90% of my playing is on the same preset ).
> ...



Well the cabs are IRs...but the ability to mix them by moving virtual mics is awesome! By far my favorite feature of the plugins as well as the ML Sound Lab stuff which features a similar setup. The ML MIKKO plugin is like the super overkill version of that. Just wish they had a bit more variety in cabs as owning anything beyond the Essentials and VX30 packs is not going to add much.

I could probably get 90% of what I need with the NeuralDSP SLO or the ML Sound Lab ML5 (Mesa Mark V) alone so I get what you mean about modelers beeing wasted on you. While I enjoy exploring everything the FM3 can do, it does sometimes feel like a bit much.

It's never been a better time to be guitarist gearwise, just so much good stuff out there.


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## 4Eyes (Apr 24, 2021)

Deadpool_25 said:


> Don’t a/b stuff and preserve your money and happiness...and sanity.


I agree with basically all you said, I just want to add - there is nothing wrong with A/B-ing stuff, just be more scientific about comparing - compare same amp models through same IR etc, don't just fire it up and run through random presets. I don't see a point in trying couple of presets on different products and then making conclusions like A is better, than B.

But that's me though, if I A/B stuff I like to eliminate as many variables from the chain, as possible. I also don't like presets, everybody has different sound in their head, you use different guitar, with different pickups and setup and it'll sound different, then IRs and virtual cabs come into play, which make whole lot of a difference, not to mention different speakers/headphones, room, that have great impact on the sound we hear, too.


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## laxu (Apr 24, 2021)

4Eyes said:


> I agree with basically all you said, I just want to add - there is nothing wrong with A/B-ing stuff, just be more scientific about comparing - compare same amp models through same IR etc, don't just fire it up and run through random presets. I don't see a point in trying couple of presets on different products and then making conclusions like A is better, than B.
> 
> But that's me though, if I A/B stuff I like to eliminate as many variables from the chain, as possible. I also don't like presets, everybody has different sound in their head, you use different guitar, with different pickups and setup and it'll sound different, then IRs and virtual cabs come into play, which make whole lot of a difference, not to mention different speakers/headphones, room, that have great impact on the sound we hear, too.



Exactly. My approach is to pick a reference tone that I like on device A and see if I can match that with the controls device B offers. Try to eliminate as many variables so you are comparing like for like.

And above all match the volumes with a decibel meter or app. Us humans will always feel like something that is louder sounds better so even a small difference in volume can make a big difference in perceived sound.


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## Emperoff (Apr 24, 2021)

@zero_point_two I love how a thread showing dissatisfaction towards the Axe-Fx got two pages of replies in hours 

If you don't get along with a piece of gear, and another gets you there in seconds... Should you spend your time fighting to unleash the alleged "true power" of the Axe Fx2 or should you just go with what gives you what you want right away? I think the choice is yours.



laxu said:


> Well the cabs are IRs...but the ability to mix them by moving virtual mics is awesome! By far my favorite feature of the plugins as well as the ML Sound Lab stuff which features a similar setup. The ML MIKKO plugin is like the super overkill version of that. Just wish they had a bit more variety in cabs as owning anything beyond the Essentials and VX30 packs is not going to add much.
> 
> I could probably get 90% of what I need with the NeuralDSP SLO or the ML Sound Lab ML5 (Mesa Mark V) alone so I get what you mean about modelers beeing wasted on you. While I enjoy exploring everything the FM3 can do, it does sometimes feel like a bit much.
> 
> It's never been a better time to be guitarist gearwise, just so much good stuff out there.



Yeah, I know they're IRs. But the handling is a million times better (and much more human-like). So much that I don't care if it sounds better with my Ownhammer impulses. I haven't even tried them, nor I need to.


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## laxu (Apr 24, 2021)

Emperoff said:


> Yeah, I know they're IRs. But the handling is a million times better (and much more human-like). So much thaat I don't care if it sounds better with my Ownhammer impulses. I haven't even tried them, nor I need to.



Agreed. The file browser way of adjusting cab sims is just stupid and a lot of guesswork, trial and error.

I like ML Sound Lab MIKKO a lot because you can export your custom cab mixes as IRs so they can be used on other stuff. The defaults are also good, if maybe a bit dark sounding.

The movable mics feature is something I am looking forward to trying on the Quad Cortex too.


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## TheBloodstained (May 19, 2021)

Maybe slightly off topic, but still somewhat related; I've felt the same about my poor-mans-Axe-Fx, the Line6 Pod HD Pro!

It's a cool unit, but I feel like no matter how much I'm tweaking to tone often ends up being pretty lackluster in the context of a mix. After a lot of experimenting I finally realized that my somewhat scooped guitar sound, which sounded pretty good when jam'ing by myself, is worth nothing in a mix when recording.
I'm still trying to dial in a satisfying tone, but must admit that the "option paralysis" is getting the better of me, and I've been kind of tempted to go back to real amps instead of emulating everything. I did just that for bass and it instantly lifted my recordings.

I've thought about going the NeuralDSP way, but I'm kind of afraid that it would end up with the same "option paralysis" pitfall.


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## Emperoff (May 19, 2021)

TheBloodstained said:


> Maybe slightly off topic, but still somewhat related; I've felt the same about my poor-mans-Axe-Fx, the Line6 Pod HD Pro!
> 
> It's a cool unit, but I feel like no matter how much I'm tweaking to tone often ends up being pretty lackluster in the context of a mix. After a lot of experimenting I finally realized that my somewhat scooped guitar sound, which sounded pretty good when jam'ing by myself, is worth nothing in a mix when recording.
> I'm still trying to dial in a satisfying tone, but must admit that the "option paralysis" is getting the better of me, and I've been kind of tempted to go back to real amps instead of emulating everything. I did just that for bass and it instantly lifted my recordings.
> ...



NDSP also has several plugins, and will surely release more. You're never safe from option paralysis when going the digital route. You could just download their demos and see if they work for you. They definetely have much less parameters to tweak than Fractal stuff.

It's worth mentioning that you will probably have the same problem with real amps if you use scooped sounds for recording, but you can also try getting a new amp and returning it if it's not your thing.


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## laxu (May 19, 2021)

TheBloodstained said:


> Maybe slightly off topic, but still somewhat related; I've felt the same about my poor-mans-Axe-Fx, the Line6 Pod HD Pro!
> 
> It's a cool unit, but I feel like no matter how much I'm tweaking to tone often ends up being pretty lackluster in the context of a mix. After a lot of experimenting I finally realized that my somewhat scooped guitar sound, which sounded pretty good when jam'ing by myself, is worth nothing in a mix when recording.
> I'm still trying to dial in a satisfying tone, but must admit that the "option paralysis" is getting the better of me, and I've been kind of tempted to go back to real amps instead of emulating everything. I did just that for bass and it instantly lifted my recordings.
> ...



Most of the NeuralDSP plugins are pretty simple in what they have. You are not required to buy more than one if you don't want to. I'd probably just buy the Soldano SLO plugin if I wanted exactly one. It does enough in sound and fx to do a lot of stuff while still being reasonably simple to use.

With real amps you mainly move the complexity elsewhere, could be a bunch of pedals on the floor or whatever setup you use to record it. Then you have hooking all that together, my amp rig is a whole jumble of cables.


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## RevDrucifer (May 19, 2021)

darkinners said:


> Neural plugins strong suit is great default and artist preset, also the IR with mic positioning is quite versatile.
> However, if tweaked, I still think Fractal sounded better than NeuralDSP plugin especially the latest firmware Cygnus. . The difference is very subtle though.



For shits and giggles, I downloaded Gojira and Parallax the other day. I was blown away that I got a killer tone immediately, at the default setting. 

This was also my first experience with any kind of modeling outside of my AxeFX III since Peavey Revalver, so I’ve got no clue what’s been going on with other products and can only compare things to my AxeFX. 

I immediately saw how the appeal to have a ready-to-go tone just by opening the plugin. That’s something that wasn’t happening with the AxeFX until Cygnus, in most cases. For people who don’t like tweaking, I can 100%, absolutely see the appeal of stuff like this.

That said, and forgive me for those who have read me say this elsewhere, I do worry that it’s going to lead to another case of Drumkit From Hell, where everyone was using the same damn drum sounds for every recording and everything started sounding way too similar. If a ton of people are using the same plugins that aren’t exactly tweakable, going for the same kind of music with tiny variations....there’s gonna be a lot of fuckin’ clones out there.

While the plugins sounded great, they sounded great for plugins. I’d totally use them in a laptop for traveling, but I doubt I’d end up using them on a final recording for anything. There’s a depth to them that’s not there and it’s not something the Depth knob dials in, more in that 3D sense. Love the cab aspect of it, moving the mic around the speaker, that shit is killer. 

Parallax I would actually use on a recording, without a doubt. Those bass tones are fucking great! 

As someone who thoroughly enjoys tweaking, the lack of tweakability freaks me out a bit with the idea of the QC. It’d have to be a REALLY killer sounding model/capture and it’ll definitely have to sound better than what I heard in the Gojira plugin. It’s killer for on-the-go recording/jamming, but at least for the high gain tones, they’re missing something in the 3D factor, IMO.


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## Drew (May 19, 2021)

Spicypickles said:


> Lol, neural people coming in here to make you guys second guess your axefx’s. Brilliant tactics


My first thought, too. New member, four posts, all in this thread, while there's a TON of threads all over the internet complaining about the Quad Core, though to be fair mostly features/lack thereof and reliability.

No horse in this race, I use real amps, real mics, real mic pres, etc, walk to work up hill in the snow both ways, and have no interest in either unit, but I have yet to talk to anyone who can't get sounds they're happy with out of an AxeFX, and as a tube snob even I have been impressed by some of the patches I've played through running throigh a clean poweramp and guitar cab. Just seems weird to me that someone would start a thread here, a year after buying and using an AxeFX they were underwhelmed with, to talk up how much happier they were with a $100 plugin made by the manufacturer of a unit that's currently _extremely_ controversial.


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## laxu (May 19, 2021)

RevDrucifer said:


> As someone who thoroughly enjoys tweaking, the lack of tweakability freaks me out a bit with the idea of the QC. It’d have to be a REALLY killer sounding model/capture and it’ll definitely have to sound better than what I heard in the Gojira plugin. It’s killer for on-the-go recording/jamming, but at least for the high gain tones, they’re missing something in the 3D factor, IMO.



That has not bothered me at all on the QC. You can still throw EQ blocks before and after the amp model if you want more control over the sound but most of them work just fine by pairing an amp model you like with a cab model you like, exactly like Fractal. Compared to my FM3 I feel the QC amp models sound fuller overall but I will reserve that comparison fully when FM3 Cygnus update is released. FM3 to me produces more "mix ready" thinner, brighter tones out of the box while QC is more "sounds great when playing on your own" type things.


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## wheresthefbomb (May 19, 2021)

sorry I can't hear you over 120 all-tube watts of "can't relate"


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## RevDrucifer (May 19, 2021)

laxu said:


> That has not bothered me at all on the QC. You can still throw EQ blocks before and after the amp model if you want more control over the sound but most of them work just fine by pairing an amp model you like with a cab model you like, exactly like Fractal. Compared to my FM3 I feel the QC amp models sound fuller overall but I will reserve that comparison fully when FM3 Cygnus update is released. FM3 to me produces more "mix ready" thinner, brighter tones out of the box while QC is more "sounds great when playing on your own" type things.



We’ve been down this road a few times before; I’m a tweaker, I want all the shit like frequency response curves, variacs, sag, all the shit people hate about Fractal units are all the things that I love. I don’t like the idea of being ‘stuck’ with a tone that’s 98% there and I can’t get the last 2% due to a limitation. 

I know recordable tones are more than available with the QC and the plug-ins, they just wouldn’t be my go-to _at this point _where I have a workflow down with the AxeFX/Axe-Edit and can tweak my way out of something if a guitar sound isn’t working right. If I had a QC for a decent amount of time and got used to dialing it in, it probably wouldn’t be any different.


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## Thaeon (May 19, 2021)

I didn't get along with the AFXII either. I could get all sorts of tones my friends would drool over, but it always sounded like it was missing something to me. The NDSP stuff doesn't. I regularly use, Nolly, Abasi, and Granophyre. And it takes me a minute or two to get something I'm happy with. With the AFX I spent more time tweaking than playing. That's SUPER annoying to me. I don't have that kind of attention or time. I use the Neural stuff for recording and my Diezel live. Much happier now.


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## Emperoff (May 19, 2021)

The pattern I see is that when people prefer NDSP to Fractal, the Fractal cult enters in crusade mode. Same thing in other places where whenever some new digital stuff comes out, the army of tube snobs starts talking shit.

If OP prefers NDSP to Fractal it doesn't necessarily make him stupid or a paid NDSP rep. As some people mentioned above, getting great sounds quickly is a big selling point for them. Not everyone is a tweaker. It's a good thing to have choices.



RevDrucifer said:


> That said, and forgive me for those who have read me say this elsewhere, I do worry that it’s going to lead to another case of Drumkit From Hell, where everyone was using the same damn drum sounds for every recording and everything started sounding way too similar. If a ton of people are using the same plugins that aren’t exactly tweakable, going for the same kind of music with tiny variations....there’s gonna be a lot of fuckin’ clones out there



People will make their way to sound exactly like everyone else anyway (they already did before NDSP appreaded ). Flavour of choice of a 5150 sim + TS, like has been for more than a decade now.


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## laxu (May 19, 2021)

RevDrucifer said:


> We’ve been down this road a few times before; I’m a tweaker, I want all the shit like frequency response curves, variacs, sag, all the shit people hate about Fractal units are all the things that I love. I don’t like the idea of being ‘stuck’ with a tone that’s 98% there and I can’t get the last 2% due to a limitation.
> 
> I know recordable tones are more than available with the QC and the plug-ins, they just wouldn’t be my go-to _at this point _where I have a workflow down with the AxeFX/Axe-Edit and can tweak my way out of something if a guitar sound isn’t working right. If I had a QC for a decent amount of time and got used to dialing it in, it probably wouldn’t be any different.



Then you are without doubt a Fractal user for life. No ifs or buts about it.


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## MaxOfMetal (May 19, 2021)

There's no replacement for knowing what you're doing. 

These are all tools, if you can get great tone out of a real amp you should be able get great tone out of the Axe or NDSP or Helix or whatever...you just might have to spend some time learning your tools.


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## Thaeon (May 19, 2021)

Emperoff said:


> The pattern I see is that when people prefer NDSP to Fractal, the Fractal cult enters in crusade mode. Same thing in other places where whenever some new digital stuff comes out, the army of tube snobs starts talking shit.
> 
> If OP prefers NDSP to Fractal it doesn't necessarily make him stupid or a paid NDSP rep. As some people mentioned above, getting great sounds quickly is a big selling point for them. Not everyone is a tweaker. It's a good thing to have choices.
> 
> ...



Exactly. I prefer an amp. Its easy. Yes they're loud and heavy. But they are easy to get dialed in and I need something that I don't feel like I need to constantly be twisting knobs on. If I can't get it to sound good in a couple minutes I'm getting agitated. I have zero interest is spending hours on a guitar tone. That said I have zero problems with anyone who does like to tweak. I've heard some insanely good tones come from the Fractal stuff. If that's your chosen tool, great. I look forward to hearing the crazy shit you do with it. But please. Do so crazy unique shit with it. the LAST thing we need is ANOTHER band whose signal chain is Guitar>TS>5150/SLO/Recto>V30>SM57. Something new please!! Especially when we have access to SO MANY different new tools.


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## HungryGuitarStudent (May 19, 2021)

zero_point_two said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I record music in my home studio. Mostly Metal/Djenty stuff. I bought an Axe-FX 2 XL about a year ago.
> 
> ...



IMO, the axe fx requires you to know how to dial in tones on the actual amps that are modelled. For example, whether you use an actual Mesa Mk IV or its fractal model, you can get shit tones if you don't know what you're doing. Anyhow, this was my case until I actually got to know some amps better.

For cabs, you can load the same IRs with the axe fx or Neural (or any other plugin).

Concerning NeuralDSP, their philosophy on a lot of their amps is to make things sound "great" with everything at noon. On the other hand, Fractal models real amps, a lot of which don't sound great with everything at noon (or if you don't know what you're doing).


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## Emperoff (May 19, 2021)

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> IMO, the axe fx requires you to know how to dial in tones on the actual amps that are modelled. For example, whether you use an actual Mesa Mk IV or its fractal model, you can get shit tones if you don't know what you're doing. Anyhow, this was my case until I actually got to know some amps better.
> 
> For cabs, you can load the same IRs with the axe fx or Neural (or any other plugin).
> 
> Concerning NeuralDSP, their philosophy on a lot of their amps is to make things sound "great" with everything at noon. On the other hand, Fractal models real amps, a lot of which don't sound great with everything at noon (or if you don't know what you're doing).


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## budda (May 19, 2021)

There's a difference between "fractal cult" (which exists, like most brands) and "hey did you fully understand the unit you were using?". 

I dont know amps in terms of what to change in the guts to get X amp into Y territory (see: hot rodded marshalls). But I cant break anything by testing every available option, let alone zap myself dead.

It's also why I always ask if people read the manual.

And at the end of the day, if you've been playing for a long time - you're going to sound like you, sound source be damned.


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## drgamble (May 19, 2021)

Human hearing is so finicky it's a joke. What sounds great one day sounds like dog doo the next. Even with something like a Fractal that doesn't change sound, I have experienced this phenomenon. In the old days, tube amps were just finicky like that, and the room made a huge difference in how things sounded.

You should use whatever you like. It will probably change over time, but that it was makes one recording sound different from another recording, guitar player's taste change over time.

A lot of the pro that use Axe Fx really only use them for live stuff. I get it in that setting, it is way easier to roll up with a few Axe Fxs in a rack, plug them all in and you are ready to rock and roll. I remember the days lugging around a half stack at minimum and sometimes a full stack and that was a chore. Along with lugging equipment, switching, noise, bad tubes, the list goes on were always kind of a pain playing live. A lot of the pros are still using tube amps in the studio because they can and it is a tried and true method of getting great guitar tone. 

You have to use whatever works for you. If you don't like the Axe Fx, sell it and pocket some cash or buy another guitar or something. Maybe a few years from now you will want to revisit the Axe Fx and there will be some new shiny Axe Fx out there. Maybe computer plugins render the Axe Fx obsolete in a few years, who knows.


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## Veldar (May 19, 2021)

If it's a used axe fx maybe the last owner had the global eq set poorly for your use?


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## WarMachine (May 19, 2021)

Emperoff said:


> The pattern I see is that when people prefer NDSP to Fractal, the Fractal cult enters in crusade mode. Same thing in other places where whenever some new digital stuff comes out, the army of tube snobs starts talking shit.


*IT DOESN'T LIKE FRACTAL?!*
*




*
*WE KILLS IT!!!!*


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## Thaeon (May 20, 2021)

budda said:


> There's a difference between "fractal cult" (which exists, like most brands) and "hey did you fully understand the unit you were using?".
> 
> I dont know amps in terms of what to change in the guts to get X amp into Y territory (see: hot rodded marshalls). But I cant break anything by testing every available option, let alone zap myself dead.
> 
> ...



Manuals are incredibly helpful. And honestly, if it’s something as important to you as your voice on the instrument and as much as some of us are willing to spend on them, you’d think the manual would be necessary study material before or during first plug-in.

As far as sounding like yourself, that’s inevitable. You can only do so much about that without fundamentally changing parts of how you play. Which may or may not change other parts of your voice on the instrument. Either own your voice or be upset with it.


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## RevDrucifer (May 24, 2021)

laxu said:


> Then you are without doubt a Fractal user for life. No ifs or buts about it.



All that said, I’m hoping to get into school for electrical engineering this year so I can take that information and start tweaking physical amps. Tweaking stuff virtually is fun, doing it with physical stuff is more fun. 

It’d take quite a bit for me to have an analog rig at this point, but I still love amps and want a nice collection of them simply because I’m a gear nerd.


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## RevDrucifer (May 24, 2021)

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> IMO, the axe fx requires you to know how to dial in tones on the actual amps that are modelled. For example, whether you use an actual Mesa Mk IV or its fractal model, you can get shit tones if you don't know what you're doing. Anyhow, this was my case until I actually got to know some amps better.
> 
> For cabs, you can load the same IRs with the axe fx or Neural (or any other plugin).
> 
> Concerning NeuralDSP, their philosophy on a lot of their amps is to make things sound "great" with everything at noon. On the other hand, Fractal models real amps, a lot of which don't sound great with everything at noon (or if you don't know what you're doing).



That was definitely the case pre-Cygnus, however, most high gain amps, when paired with a proper IR, are ready to go right at noon. I’m working on a video going over this just because I think it’s the most glaring evidence of the changes that Cygnus brought on. 

However, you’re still spot on in regards to the Mesa’s. There’s no way in hell those are ever going to sound good at noon in a Fractal unit. 5150, CCV, BE/HBE, Engl’s and Splawns all sounded killer right at noon and I find one more every time I start trying out new amps.


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## Drew (May 24, 2021)

Emperoff said:


> The pattern I see is that when people prefer NDSP to Fractal, the Fractal cult enters in crusade mode. Same thing in other places where whenever some new digital stuff comes out, the army of tube snobs starts talking shit.


The reverse is also true, though, there's a Quad Core cult that's also in aggressive damage control/crusade mode right now too going out of their way to write off other modelers and argue why their Quad Core is the one true way to tonal bliss. 

And, the two things that seem odd about this post to me, are 1) this guy had no prior ties to this community, and signed up to say how unhappy he was with a Fractal and how happy he was with a Quad Core, and as of last I checked hadn't made a single other post on this forum outside of this thread, and 2) he claims to have used a device that sounded "a little flat, a little flubby, and drowned in the mix" for _more than a year_, while also being the sort of person who claims to have tried every single parameter within the AxeFX, so clearly is no stranger to incessant tweaking, and did this for over a year before he tried anything else out. If you're that unhappy with a piece of hardware, and have spent THAT much time getting under the skin with it, it's awfully hard to imagine at some point after only a month or two you wouldn't just catch one of those $50 sales on a Neural plugin just to try something else. 

tl;dr - this reads a lot like the post of someone with an axe to grind and trying to generate some positive buzz for Neural to offset some of the debacle of the rollout of their Quad Core, who is going out of their way to create the impression of knowing the unit intimately to front run "you just don't know how to dial it in" rebuttals. 

And, again, it's not like I personally give a shit - I'm pretty happy with my current recording chain, and the only time I really use any amp modeling is the old LePou plugins just for songwriting so I can do seamless punches as song ideas evolve. I'm a real amp guy through and through. This post just feels off to me.


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## budda (May 24, 2021)

OP pulled the ole quip n' dip.


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## cardinal (May 24, 2021)

Probably realized it wasn't worth arguing over the internet or sinking more time into one piece of gear when another piece of gear did what he wanted.


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## mongey (May 24, 2021)

cardinal said:


> Probably realized it wasn't worth arguing over the internet or sinking more time into one piece of gear when another piece of gear did what he wanted.


What is this madness ?


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## Drew (May 25, 2021)

budda said:


> OP pulled the ole quip n' dip.


...yet one more reason why I'm _really_ struggling to take this thread at face value.


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## Emperoff (May 25, 2021)

I always find funny when OP disappears but the thread remains alive


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## budda (May 25, 2021)

Emperoff said:


> I always find funny when OP disappears but the thread remains alive



Slow days


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## Elric (May 25, 2021)

In the modern guitar amp modeling world the AxeFx does not disappoint the guitarist, the guitarist disappoints the AxeFx!


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## cardinal (May 25, 2021)

Elric said:


> In the modern guitar amp modeling world the AxeFx does not disappoint the guitarist, the guitarist disappoints the AxeFx!



im pretty sure I see little tears stream down mine every time I butcher the Lay It Down riff.


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