# Plausibility of tritium inlays?



## Wrecklyss (Sep 13, 2012)

I was thinking it would be cool to retrofit a guitar neck with tritium gas tube inlays (like the hands and numbers on my Luminox, glow constantly for 20-25 years and are very bright). How hard would this be to do?


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## jarnozz (Sep 13, 2012)

would be possible, kinda dangerous to. The stuff in those tubes is radioactive. That can never be good for you xD you can rout a cavity for it, put it in ans seal it of with a transparent sealer and sand it flat with the fretboard.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 13, 2012)

The radiation isn't strong enough to penetrate skin, so no worries there. Just don't go eating the stuff regularly. 

I'd more more concerned about the price at $30,000 a gram according to Los Alamos.


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## angus (Sep 13, 2012)

MaxOfMetal said:


> The radiation isn't strong enough to penetrate skin, so no worries there. Just don't go eating the stuff regularly.
> 
> I'd more more concerned about the price at $30,000 a gram according to Los Alamos.



It is dangerous via absorption through skin, though. But that's okay- you wouldn't be inlaying grams of material!

You actually could buy the tube pieces from watch makers/suppliers. No clue on the cost, but it would be decent given the amount you'd need. They use such a small quantity of tritium in them that the cost per gram isn't really a concern.


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## Wrecklyss (Sep 13, 2012)

I've got 15 tritium gas tubes in a $200 watch, so for my purposes, it shouldn't be too expensive. I was just wondering if anyone knows where to pick up tritium gas tubes (watch repair store is a good idea) and what might be the easiest way to inlay them on a fret board. I don't plan on eating any of it.


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## OfArtAndArsenal (Sep 13, 2012)

Wrecklyss said:


> I don't plan on eating any of it.



Good call.


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## Ghost40 (Sep 13, 2012)

It is also used in some exit signs. This would give you access to a larger quantity, but again, radioactive, amount, skin, yadda yadda yadda

Something else to think about, as a civilian there "may" be some regulations that would prevent you from buying certain or any quantities without proper documentation. I did a quick search, didn't really find any distributors per say. But I like this idea


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## bob123 (Sep 13, 2012)

Please please please please don't talk about radiation if you're not positive what you're talking about. 

Tritium is a beta emitter. It IS strong enough to penetrate skin. However, the amount of radiation it gives off is much much less then a day at the beach or a flight on an airplane. Unless you're dealing with MASSIVE amounts of this stuff, its very safe to handle on a personal level. 

This is not me "correcting" anyone, this is not me "showing my e-penis". I have to deal with a lot of ignorance on this every single day. I just spend time educating where and when I can.

I think since 9/11, its going to be VERY difficult for you to buy this without some sort of license. You can buy watches and tubes of it, but nothing I can think of that will be useful for a guitar inlay in any case.


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## Wrecklyss (Sep 13, 2012)

So about these exit signs, do you who makes them? Also, i'm not a civilian (and i still don't know any obvious suppliers of tritium gas tubes).


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## quoenusz (Sep 13, 2012)

well that's a pretty wicked idea, I like it!


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## Wrecklyss (Sep 13, 2012)

I found a company called "betalights" from the Netherlands that sells small glass filled tubes for rifle sights, watches, compasses, etc.. If they can make 6mm diameter by 1-3mm thick disks, it would be fairly easy to remove stock "dot" inlays and swap 'em out for these. Waiting to hear back from the company.


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## MetalDaze (Sep 13, 2012)

If this idea does pan out, it would be great to send the guitar to Mike Learn for a paint job like this


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## bob123 (Sep 13, 2012)

Military or not, that doesn't matter lol. You NEED a license for this stuff. Tritium is used in high yield nuclear explosives, its carefully monitored. 

That said, it might not even be legal to mail over here.... Make sure you ask them how much radiation they are expecting from it, and make sure its not going over legal limits if you do get some from over seas. 

If they can make you dots small enough for that, that would be very cool though, I'd be interested in the cost of said items.


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## Ghost40 (Sep 13, 2012)

bob123 said:


> Military or not, that doesn't matter lol. You NEED a license for this stuff. Tritium is used in high yield nuclear explosives, its carefully monitored.
> 
> That said, it might not even be legal to mail over here.... Make sure you ask them how much radiation they are expecting from it, and make sure its not going over legal limits if you do get some from over seas.
> 
> If they can make you dots small enough for that, that would be very cool though, I'd be interested in the cost of said items.



This.

On the exit signs, a quick google search is how I found it. And it was the only company I saw. Everything else was watch manufacturers.

I know its not the same, but have you thought about LEDs?


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## Wrecklyss (Sep 13, 2012)

I've been searching, and while you do have to have a license to handle tritium, you do not have to have one to poses or use hermetically sealed, gas filled luminescent tubes (other wise, lots of people would be in hot water over watches, rifle sights, fishing lures, exit signs, and field compasses). There are regulations on handling them and disposal of broken tubes, but it's more of a "call us and await our instructions" than a formal license. The gas filled tubes work by bouncing electrons from a naturally occurring isotope of hydrogen off phosphorescent dye lining the walls of the glass tube, similar to a television but at much lower levels. The amount of radiation from tritium is so low it can't penetrate one sheet of paper. 

I just think it would be a cool, no worries way to have an illuminated fretboard. Unlike LEDs, it wouldn't require a power source, could be added to an existing guitar without major disassembly, and would last about the same amount of time as an LED.


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## elq (Sep 13, 2012)

bob123 said:


> Please please please please don't talk about radiation if you're not positive what you're talking about.


 in fact, you should take this advice yourself...



bob123 said:


> Tritium is a beta emitter. It IS strong enough to penetrate skin.



http://www.ehso.emory.edu/content-forms/3anuclidedatasafetysheets.pdf

If you don't want to read the pdf, I'll extract the relevant quote -


> Beta Range:
> Air: 6 mm [0.6 cm; 0.25 inches]
> Water: 0.006 mm [0.0006 cm; 3/10,000 inches]
> Solids/Tissue: Insignificant [No 3H betas pass through the dead layer of skin]





Back to the question, you can buy tritium vials here - [email protected]'s Tritium thread part deux bis


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## bob123 (Sep 13, 2012)

I spent six years as a naval nuclear operator.

I got my degree in mechanical engineering. 

I now work at a nuclear power plant as a fuel systems engineer.

I promise I have MUCH more knowledge then you elq.



Also, you can own tritium objects. You are NOT ALLOWED free form tritium without a license in the united states. This includes limits on the amounts you can own and transport.


Feel free to look up 10CFR at your leasure.


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## bob123 (Sep 13, 2012)

ill say this. Its a cool idea, but feasibility isn't the greatest. Expense, potential legality issues and all that aside, there's other, better options then tritium.


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## Levi79 (Sep 13, 2012)

I have nothing to contribute other than the fact that I would love to see this!


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## elq (Sep 13, 2012)

bob123 said:


> I spent six years as a naval nuclear operator.
> 
> I got my degree in mechanical engineering.
> 
> ...



Congrats 

I'm only a physicist by education. I know nothing about beta decay or the energy of beta decay. 




bob123 said:


> blah blah, blah. blah blah CFR





I did not dispute the legality, only the risk. 

If it's sealed in a glass tube and not stuffed into you body, tritium is no risk.

Thanks for trying.


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## Watty (Sep 13, 2012)

bob123 said:


> I spent six years as a naval nuclear operator. I got my degree in mechanical engineering. I now work at a nuclear power plant as a fuel systems engineer. I promise I have MUCH more knowledge then you elq.



Sounds like your "e-Penis" decided to show up after all? *I kid, I kid*

Regardless, seems an awful lot of trouble to get an effect that could be achieved (to a somewhat satisfactory level) for the cost of some glow in the dark stickers, or, if you're really adventurous, a (prof. installed) lighting "system."

I can hear the Republicans chanting it now..."keep the government out of my guitar!"


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## bob123 (Sep 13, 2012)

elq said:


> Congrats
> 
> I'm only a physicist by education. I know nothing about beta decay or the energy of beta decay.
> 
> ...




If you bothered to read, I clearly stated you would get more radiation from a day at the beach. You should be very aware that beta emitters CAN go through the epidermis layer. Tritium is such a low half, the emissions are impossibly low to cause any real damage. [for those that care to learn, https://orise.orau.gov/reacts/guide/beta.htm The main reason Im so sensitive about it is the recent events of tritium in the drinking water. Plants across the nation got picketers about the damn effects of tritium. My main point is getting it here, in a feasible size, thats cost effective AND legal! Thats it, nothing to do with the emissions and radioactive "scare" this stuff seems to cause. 

Nothing about "trying" boss.... Just elucidating the legalities of the issue, nothing more.




Watty said:


> Sounds like your "e-Penis" decided to show up after all? *I kid, I kid*



Yeah yeah haha. I take this stuff a little on the serious side, as it's near and dear to my profession, and the amount of ignorance we deal with on a daily basis is somewhat tiring after a while.

For example...
http://www.greenpeace.org/canada/en...esources/Reports/tritium-hazard-report-pollu/



I apologize for off topic, wasn't my intention. As watty stated though, there are better, cheaper, and more feasible options for you to pursue. The ONLY reason to do it, is quite simply to say you have a radioactive guitar lol.


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## darren (Sep 13, 2012)

I've looked into this. I even got as far as starting the application process with the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission to import and use tritium gas lights as position markers.

Import and export of radioactive material is VERY strictly controlled. There are only a few manufacturers of these in the world, and the best ones come from Switzerland. 

Below a certain threshold, (like the size and number found in a Luminox watch) there isn't enough radiation for it to be a problem. But at that size, they're really not very bright. Good for a watch, which you might read from about a foot away in complete blackness. On a guitar with other ambient light around, they are VERY faint. In the size i'd want, i would definitely be in the "need a license" territory, which just isn't practical. 

If you want to experiment with them, there are companies on eBay that sell them for use in fishing lures and gun sights. 

But for price and effectiveness, i think Luminlay is a better way to go.


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## USMC_OriginalSin (Sep 13, 2012)

elq said:


> Congrats
> 
> I'm only a physicist by education. I know nothing about beta decay or the energy of beta decay.
> 
> ...



I'd agree with this.. I'm not some genius physicist, but I am a grunt. Any my compass, watch and rifle sight all have tritium in them. Considering i'm never more than a few inches from any of them and I may or may not have licked my compass (don't judge me  ) he'd be fine


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## bob123 (Sep 13, 2012)

The horse has spoken.


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## darren (Sep 13, 2012)

Another thing to consider is what to do with them after they're no longer bright enough to be useful. With Luminlays, you just drill them out and install a new set.

The half-life of tritium is 12.32 years, meaning they'd be half as bright after 12 years, and half as bright again after 25. Going by the fact that they're already not terribly bright to begin with, i would guess that they'd be only marginally useful after 10 years.

Tritium gas lights would probably need to be embedded in epoxy to be safe, and once they decay to the point where they're useless, there's still radioactive material in there that needs to be safely removed and disposed of. Personally, i would not want to be responsible for their safe removal and disposal.


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## larry (Sep 13, 2012)

it is a good idea, i dig it. but from what i could google, it seems
like their brightness is dependant on concentration? if color variety
isn't a concern, i'd go for luminlays. like darren ninja'd. they aren't 
expensive and can be easy to retrofit/replace. with tritium, once they're in, 
there is no 'drilling' them out.

i went with luminlays for my kxk order, but only because i was turned
down for fiber side dots. although labor intensive, i think fiber dots are
the way to go. i don't mind the need for a battery and if the led burns
out, it can be replaced if located in an accessible cavity. good luck man, 
i hope you're able to pull off tritium side dots. go for a unique color if
you can.


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## darren (Sep 13, 2012)

What sucks is the "interesting" colours like white, blue and purple are all quite a bit more dim than the yellow/green.


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## MetalDaze (Sep 13, 2012)

USMC_OriginalSin said:


> I'd agree with this.. I'm not some genius physicist, but I am a grunt. Any my compass, watch and rifle sight all have tritium in them. Considering i'm never more than a few inches from any of them and I may or may not have licked my compass (don't judge me  ) he'd be fine


 
Dude, you just admitted you are a compass licker  As long as you are only licking your own compass, I'm sure it's ok 

When the glowing inlays that require no power, never burn out, and are bright as all hell hit the market, I'm ready to buy.


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## bob123 (Sep 13, 2012)

MetalDaze said:


> Dude, you just admitted you are a compass licker  As long as you are only licking your own compass, I'm sure it's ok



Hey, there are worse things he can be licking.... haha


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## Wrecklyss (Sep 13, 2012)

Wow, this thread actually became pretty amusing. Thanks for the Bart's link (elq) and the 10CFR reference (bob123). I'm actually planning a custom in the next few months, and want to send some dot markers to be installed in the fretboard because i want my guitar to match my watch, (not really, just thought it would be cool). If there is a better option, i may take it, but i like the no maintainence aspect tritium would give for 10+ years.


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## USMC_OriginalSin (Sep 13, 2012)

MetalDaze said:


> Dude, you just admitted you are a compass licker  As long as you are only licking your own compass, I'm sure it's ok
> 
> When the glowing inlays that require no power, never burn out, and are bright as all hell hit the market, I'm ready to buy.



Protip: The regular windex cleans the lens really well ( and tastes great!) I kid I kid.... When you've been blown up as many times as I have, you tend to be a little... off. Theres a reason people are afraid of us 




bob123 said:


> Hey, there are worse things he can be licking.... haha



Coming from a Sailor.... You would know all about that... Wouldn't you


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## darren (Sep 13, 2012)

No maintenance for 10 years... but then you have to dig 'em out without breaking one.


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## bob123 (Sep 13, 2012)

USMC_OriginalSin said:


> Coming from a Sailor.... You would know all about that... Wouldn't you






Noted, mr. Im-part-of-the-department-of-the-navy.


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## USMC_OriginalSin (Sep 13, 2012)

bob123 said:


> Noted, mr. Im-part-of-the-department-of-the-navy.


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## elq (Sep 13, 2012)

darren said:


> What sucks is the "interesting" colours like white, blue and purple are all quite a bit more dim than the yellow/green.





I don't know if that's because the phosphor compounds for colors other than green are less emissive or if it's just an artifact of the physiology of color perception in the eyes.




darren said:


> No maintenance for 10 years... but then you have to dig 'em out without breaking one.





And the potential liability of any future owner who might be ignorant that there is tritium in their guitar


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## bob123 (Sep 14, 2012)

USMC_OriginalSin said:


>



I was waiting for this..... 



elq said:


> I don't know if that's because the phosphor compounds for colors other than green are less emissive or if it's just an artifact of the physiology of color perception in the eyes.




Its simply how they refine it. For color spectrum, blue light is by far the most "sensitive" to the human eye. Ironically, the blue tritium is the most pale haha. I know for noble gases, they change the amount of electricity and type of gas to change color, but Im quite unsure how they change tritium's color. Part of me doesn't believe its tritium at all... just simply some other phosphorescent compound.


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## elq (Sep 14, 2012)

bob123 said:


> Part of me doesn't believe its tritium at all... just simply some other phosphorescent compound.



 the beta decay is exciting phosphors lining the inside of the tube


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## bob123 (Sep 14, 2012)

elq said:


> the beta decay is exciting phosphors lining the inside of the tube



well there we go... haha


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## elq (Sep 14, 2012)

And dude. The best bright blue inlay would come from Cherenkov radiation 






Not this pussy tritium crap


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## bob123 (Sep 14, 2012)

elq said:


> And dude. The best bright blue inlay would come from Cherenkov radiation
> 
> 
> 
> ...




haha. Thats a wee-little baby reactor. Probably makes bananas look dangerous  

Cherenkov is very neat, and very lovely in person. If you could find a way to replicate that on a small level.... $$$$$$$$$$$


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## Deadnightshade (Sep 14, 2012)

As Low As Reasonably Achievable.


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## Wrecklyss (Sep 14, 2012)

Well, i was thinking about U-235 initially, but then i thought that would make the guitar a little neck heavy! (to be clear, a joke)

I heard back from the company in the Netherlands: they are not allowed to ship to the United States. I'll try to contact Bart today. I'm thinking it wouldn't be too hard to pull the old inlays out, fill the cavity half-way with clear polyurathane, carefully place in a few tritium gas tubes, fill the cavity the rest of the way with clear polyurathane, and sand smooth when dry.


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## bob123 (Sep 14, 2012)

Deadnightshade said:


> As Low As Reasonably Achievable.



Always a pleasure to meet another nuke


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## Al NiCotin (Sep 14, 2012)

@Wrecklyss

Did you explore the more common and safe solution of Glow In The Dark
GOTD acrylic sheets with strontium aluminate ?


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 14, 2012)

Don't they make gun sights out of that too? Or is that something different?


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## Wrecklyss (Sep 14, 2012)

Al NiCotin said:


> @Wrecklyss
> 
> Did you explore the more common and safe solution of Glow In The Dark
> GOTD acrylic sheets with strontium aluminate ?



Nah, got the idea from my watch. It's actually bright enough that i can read from the light it emits, but if i'm going to change my plans, do you need a license to buy enriched U-235?


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## elq (Sep 14, 2012)

^  you soo funny


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## bob123 (Sep 14, 2012)

Wrecklyss said:


> Nah, got the idea from my watch. It's actually bright enough that i can read from the light it emits, but if i'm going to change my plans, do you need a license to buy enriched U-235?






Ironically, uranium has a lovely piss yellow color, and looks like pencil lead in pellet form


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## Al NiCotin (Sep 14, 2012)

haha, my bad! I didn't get that you need to read musical scores on stage  I suggest a name for this future beauty: The StrangeLoveCaster 


In the meanwhile on the audience side...


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## Hemorrhage (Sep 15, 2012)

I like the original idea. I would personally love the idea of having radioactive material on the on fretboard, even if its harmless  

Tho, dots are awfully boring... Do you guys have any ideas how to make (or from where to order) luminary inlays of a custom shape and without any LED + plastic cover etc. MacGyvering that would actually be bright enough so that others can also see it, in example on stage?


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## bob123 (Sep 15, 2012)

Hemorrhage said:


> I like the original idea. I would personally love the idea of having radioactive material on the on fretboard, even if its harmless
> 
> Tho, dots are awfully boring... Do you guys have any ideas how to make (or from where to order) luminary inlays of a custom shape and without any LED + plastic cover etc. MacGyvering that would actually be bright enough so that others can also see it, in example on stage?




You always inlay a banana peel, drinking water, or granite among other things if you want something radioactive in your guitar....


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## Fiction (Sep 15, 2012)

bob123 said:


> You always inlay a banana peel



It will also make you slide faster


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## Wrecklyss (Sep 15, 2012)

Al NiCotin said:


> haha, my bad! I didn't get that you need to read musical scores on stage



Not musical scores at much as the set list and...





























the size tag on the panties that get thrown on my mic stand!


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 15, 2012)

You read the size tag? They're either big panties or sexy ones... 

You know the big panties when you see them... It's like a parachute coming at you...


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## Hemorrhage (Sep 15, 2012)

bob123 said:


> You always inlay a banana peel, drinking water, or granite among other things if you want something radioactive in your guitar....



Thanks for the swift, yet smarty answer.

I pretty sure you know what I ment.


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## Fiction (Sep 15, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> You know the big panties when you see them... It's like a parachute coming at you...



Yeah, that's when the Uranium comes in hand


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## bob123 (Sep 15, 2012)

Hemorrhage said:


> Thanks for the swift, yet smarty answer.
> 
> I pretty sure you know what I ment.



Im pretty sure you should see my obvious sarcasm.



Wrecklyss said:


> the size tag on the panties that get thrown on my mic stand!


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## darren (Sep 15, 2012)

You could always get some strontium aluminate glow powder and mix it with epoxy to fill inlays of any shape or size.


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## larry (Sep 15, 2012)

hey, now there's an idea. also, i think this stuff
is used by whomever(ethereal customs) 
is building the carbon fiber 9 string for NaYoN.


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## Hollowway (Sep 15, 2012)

darren said:


> You could always get some strontium aluminate glow powder and mix it with epoxy to fill inlays of any shape or size.



That site is awesome. I remember a few years ago I wanted to paint all the ceilings of my house white glow. Until I ran the numbers on it.  Still, glow paint is amazingly cool.


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## Hemorrhage (Sep 15, 2012)

bob123 said:


> Im pretty sure you should see my obvious sarcasm.



Nice english on my behalf.

Obvious sarcasm was noted, tho from time to time I could use the extra slide from the banana peel inlays.


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