# So, how do you play "off-key" solos like Holdsworth and Thordendal?



## Roland777 (Jul 1, 2006)

Thread title pretty much says it all. Could anyone give me some tips on how to make my soloing more dissonant? (Apart from the importance of the backing track) And also point me towards some odd-sounding scales?


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## Makelele (Jul 1, 2006)

LIKE THIS http://koti.mbnet.fi/nikinmaa/Dissonance.mp3
 

































Edit: I guess Jazz theory would be a good thing, and also learn legato well, I think both use it a lot. And buy a guitar synth.


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## 777 (Jul 1, 2006)

dude no offence but that tone is way to muddy and unclear at the low end it almost sounds like vinyl quality or something... mayb it was jsut recorded off something crap like a webcam i dont know


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## Makelele (Jul 1, 2006)

777 said:


> dude no offence but that tone is way to muddy and unclear at the low end it almost sounds like vinyl quality or something... mayb it was jsut recorded off something crap like a webcam i dont know



Uuh, dude, do you really think I was serious with that clip? I spent a whole 30s making it, and no time at all dialing in any tone, so the tone sucks. Did you expect that a stupid completely sloppy, shitty, totally random "solo" would sound good?


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## nyck (Jul 1, 2006)

Roland777 said:


> Thread title pretty much says it all. Could anyone give me some tips on how to make my soloing more dissonant? (Apart from the importance of the backing track) And also point me towards some odd-sounding scales?


I would like to know this also.


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## D-EJ915 (Jul 1, 2006)

777 said:


> dude no offence but that tone is way to muddy and unclear at the low end it almost sounds like vinyl quality or something... mayb it was jsut recorded off something crap like a webcam i dont know


Hahahaha Vinyl quality, now you officially have no say on what sounds good, fool.

edit: lol it seems somebody hates anime and disagrees with me on vinyl's sound quality. Go listen to a half-decent setup that isn't in a car. To whoever gave me neg rep. I've listened to setups that cost more than your house fools.


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## Makelele (Jul 1, 2006)

D-EJ915 said:


> Hahahaha Vinyl quality, now you officially have no say on what sounds good, fool.



Yeah, I also noticed that. 

777: Vinyl often sounds a lot better than digital audio.

Edit: If you want to hear some better tone from me, then listen to this:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/nikinmaa/Makelele-extended.mp3
http://koti.mbnet.fi/nikinmaa/Makelele - Revenge.mp3


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## Roland777 (Jul 1, 2006)

Makelele said:


> LIKE THIS http://koti.mbnet.fi/nikinmaa/Dissonance.mp3



Hey. That was cool. 

In any case, I've got my legato down good - feel very confident in my hammers, pulls and slides. What I need help with is inspiration and scales, mainly - but anything that gives me tips on how to get closer to a Holdsworthish feel in solos is good.


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## Makelele (Jul 1, 2006)

Roland777 said:


> Hey. That was cool.
> 
> In any case, I've got my legato down good - feel very confident in my hammers, pulls and slides. What I need help with is inspiration and scales, mainly - but anything that gives me tips on how to get closer to a Holdsworthish feel in solos is good.



Here's something I found on google: http://www.petethomas.co.uk/jazz-scales.html

Don't really know how good it is. but there at least seems to be some scales there.


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## MetalMike (Jul 2, 2006)

Sounding like Holdsworth is more or less chord substitution, odd chord shapes, some odd scales, emulating the woodwindesc methods of soloing, and a lifetime of practice. But to get you moving in the right direction, you could start with harmonic major. I posted this somewhere else.. but if you map it out the chords are:

A min/A dim
B Maj
C aug/ C dim
D# Dim
E maj (can add minor 6th)/ E Aug
F# dim
G# min/ G# Aug

*/'s meaning either/or

A Harmonic Major

E||-------------------------------------------11-12-14-||
B||--------------------------------9-10-12-13----------||
G||-------------------------8-9-11---------------------||
D||----------------6-7-9-10----------------------------||
A||----------6-7-9-------------------------------------||
E||--4-5-7-8-------------------------------------------||

Sure you could throw in anything at anytime but this scale seems to work best during a chord change including any of the above chords and I personally restrict it to that.

It also depends on the "degree of dissonance"  you're looking to achieve.
I consider the melodic minor scale in some context dissonant while super-jazz-heads prob wouldn't. I would suggest to you to buy a book on chord substitution. I'm not sure if Guthrie Govan's book covers it but regardless thats one of the best instructional books out there IMO. Hope this helps. Good luck.


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## God Hand Apostle (Jul 2, 2006)

Seven Note Scales: 

Scale #1) C Major/D Minor/G7 
Scale #2) D Minor (maj7) - (D Melodic Minor) 
Scale #3) A Minor (maj7, b6) - (A Harmonic Minor) 
Scale #4) A Minor (maj7, #4) - (E Harmonic Major) 
Scale #14) C Dominant (#9) 

Added Tone "Jazz" Scales (Eight notes): 

Scale #6) Bb Jazz Major (add #5) 
Scale #7) C Jazz Dominant (add §7) 
Scale #8 ) B Jazz Minor (add b7) 
Scale #9) A Jazz Minor (add b6) 
Scale #11) Db Jazz Minor (add #11) 

Added Tone "Jazz" Scales (Nine notes): 

Scale #12) C Jazz Dominant (add b3 and §7) 
Scale #13) C Jazz Major (add b3 and b6) 

Symmetrical Scales: 

Scale #5) G# Diminished - 1/2, 1, 1/2, 1, 1/2, 1, etc. 
Scale #10) Symmetrical - 1/2, 1/2, 1, 1/2, 1/2, 1, etc. 
Scale #15) Whole Tone - 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, etc. 

The scales are named in relation to the chord forms and chord tones they imply. 


* C Dominant (#9) is a mixolydian scale with a #9 (D#) replacing the 9th (D). 

Bb Jazz Major (add #5) is a major scale with an added #5 (the major Bebop scale). 

C Jazz Dominant (add §7) is a mixolydian scale with an added §7th or a major scale with an added b7. 

B Jazz Minor (add b7) is a a melodic minor scale with an added b7 or a dorian scale with an added §7th. 

A Jazz Minor (add b6) is a melodic minor scale with an added b6. 

Db Jazz Minor (add #11) is a melodic minor scale with an added #11th. 

C Jazz Dominant (add b3 and §7) is a major scale with an added b3 and b7. 

C Jazz Major (add b3 and b6) is a major scale with an added b3 and b6. 


Allan says that he doesn't use the jazz scales a lot, but he thinks it's very good to know them. 


Some of the more common chords derived from 

Scale #1 are: Cmaj7(6,9), Dm7(6,9,11), and G7(9,11,13). (Available extensions are shown in parenthesis.) 

Scale #2 are: Dm(6,#7), A7(9,11,#5), G7(9,#11), and C#7(#9,b9,#5,b5). 

Scale #3 are: Am9(#7) and E7(b9,#5) 

Scale #4 are: Am9(#7), Emaj9(#11,6,9) and B7(b9,13) 

Scale #5 are: G7(b9) or G#dim7. 

Scale #6 are: Bbmaj7(#5) - also known as D/Bb, and F7(b9). 


Scale #1, #2, #3, #4, #5 are Allan's most usuable and important scales, as well as Scale #10, because Allan often uses it as a transitional scale while modulating.

Also, try to pick up some of his solos by ear so you can see when, and how he puts in chromatics, or scale #10 (basically, a scale with successive steps) as transitions to other scales...This is when he sounds like he's playing "outside." Otherwise he really does play "inside" most of the time.

Like, if you have seen his REH video. He takes the C Major scale, uses a lot of permutations, and only plays certain notes from it on the way up, and puts the ones he skipped on the way back down.

Not to mention though that the dude has got some massively strong man hands for those friggin chords that no one else plays, or those dim.3rd stretches when he is "outside."

I just found this over at www.therealallanholdsworth.com

I cannot tell you that anything I think or do is right , wrong or has any real value at all . I do not think of myself as a teacher by any stretch of the imagination . However , the way I taught myself has somehow worked for me . The main reason for this is , that when you find something out for yourself , it is understood on a deeper level than handed - down information ; at least it was for me . In my own system , scales do not have names or modes ; they have symbols , as I do not think of any scales as having beginnings or endings . The names that i give are the closest that could be derived from the symbols that i use . There are of course mind - boggling numbers of scales ( and chords that come from them ) . I have tried to outline what I would consider the basic and most practical forms with regard to improvising over chord sequences . This is simply a keyhole glimpse at the way I have come to view harmony - a purely personal way - and likely of no use to others . 

Allan Holdsworth - 


Allan's 10 Most Useful Scales - 

I think of scales as ''sound families'' ( chords are just parts of them ) . I see a scale family from the lowest available note to the highest available note on the instrument . A name is only a means of identification and communication , but in my case , identification only . I do not think of a scale as having a beginning or an end , a bottom or a top - just a sound . The name I give is for identification only and not for signifying any particular root . I do not give a seven note scale seven different names . However , it is very important to hear and remember how each scale ''sounds'' starting from each and every one of these individual notes . I feel harmony should be mobile , so as chord sequences go by , try to hear these as whole ''sound families'' moving , instead of the four or five notes of a particular chord . 

SCALE CHARTS - 
Remember , I name scales from the closest minor ( as I explained before ) that does not mean that you have to do the same . 

1. C Major / D minor / G7 
2. D minor + 7 ( D melodic ) 
3. A minor + 7 - 6 ( A harmonic ) 
4. A minor + 7 + 4 
5. A flat diminished 
6. B flat Major add - 6 
7. C dominant 7 add + 7 
8. B minor add + 7 
9. A minor + 7 add - 6 
10. Symmetrical - 2 half steps and 1 whole step 
The whole tone scale is useful as well , there are only two . Start from F and make your own chart . 

CHORD SCALES - 
When I first started to play, I would see scales written in a book showing, for example, how to play over an altered dominant chord, and on the next page another scale to use on an altered minor chord. Because at that time I was thinking more in positions, I would practice them without realizing I was really just playing the same scale starting on a different note. I would also see a chord shape, and then on the next page, the same shape with another name. I realized then that guitar chords generally only contain four different notes. This makes the naming and clarifying of chords on guitar a little more ambiguous. So it seemed to me, because of the very nature of the guitar, I could view this very differently, more from an overall picture. 

I try to pay attention to detail but detail is something that unfortunately cannot be accomplished for me in this medium. It is not possible to compress a life's love, learnings, musical desires and dreams into a few moments for all to see, hear, and understand. 



THE LAUNDRY ROOM EXCERPTS ( Taken from the old allanholdsworth.com website ) 

FAN: When you sat down and decided to practice....I'd like to know, if you'd like to tell me....? Did you just learn a scale up and down and then start improvising with it, or did you and do you also like practice patterns and things like that? 


ALLAN: I practice scales in all positions, and then try to find creative ways to use them in improvisation. There are so many of them though that there is probably no living person who can remember them all! At least I know I can't. I try to learn as much as I can and try to keep growing, but I realize that even if I live to be 2000 I still won't know too much about music. It's kind of a cool feeling! *I avoid patterns as they tend to force you into a situation where your fingers are doing the walking instead of your head .* 

"I put that last part in bold because I really think that it is key to his playing over chords. GHA"

FAN: I have a harmonic question for you.... Just curious as to your approach on soloing in terms of scales. (I have studied your instructional video, and understand your basic philosophy). But I was wondering how you might approach playing over a G minor chord vamp. (i.e. Devil take the hindmost). It appears that you might choose to play any of the "top ten" scales as mentioned in your video. Would you choose any scale that had the G minor chord as part of the scale? (i.e. play an F major scale over G minor....because the G minor chord is found inside of that particular scale) or do you ever approach it like John Coltrane....Meaning, superimposing chord progressions that aren't there. For instance, in the G minor Vamp, playing or implying D7#( scale: D7 altered, the same as E flat Melodic Minor) over the G minor chord. Or playing the Giant Step changes over a chord, regardless of what the rhythm section is playing? Or is it a combination of both, plus....??? Any clues that you could share?? 



ALLAN: You could play the scale you suggested: the E flat minor major 7 scale, also a B flat harmonic major scale, a C minor raised 4 scale, E flat minor major 7 raised 4 scale, or a G minor flat 6 scale. But when you get into superimposition and scales that don't complete themselves in one octave or drop note scales (scales that have 8 or 9 notes, but the notes that give the scale its obvious tonality are dropped), you will end up with a ridiculous array of possibilities. However, playing over one chord is pretty boring. Each musician has their own harmonic sensibility. I would definitely not play anything disregarding the rhythm section. In fact, they're probably going to be pointing the way.


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## 777 (Jul 2, 2006)

Makelele said:


> Yeah, I also noticed that.
> 
> 777: Vinyl often sounds a lot better than digital audio.
> 
> ...



dude i wasnt trying to have a go at you or your playing in any sense , but it seems ive ben put in my place now, and i seem to have a bad rep, i should probly ask for a membership cancelation because people seem to hate me now

btw those tracks are pretty fucking awesome


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## Makelele (Jul 2, 2006)

I didn't give you bad rep, and I'm not one to get pissed at someone over a internet argument. So, no hard feelings.


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## 777 (Jul 2, 2006)

Makelele said:


> I didn't give you bad rep, and I'm not one to get pissed at someone over a internet argument. So, no hard feelings.



thnks ^


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## Roland777 (Jul 3, 2006)

Thanks for the info, GHA and all the others - I´m however in Germany at the moment, a thousand kilometers away from my guitar, so I´ll have to wait until I get back within a month. Certainly a theory overload, but that´s an aspect that I have to practice on, so it´s all good.


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## Desecrated (Jul 3, 2006)

Nice info.


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