# Ibanez's marketting group think we're idiots?



## trickae (Sep 14, 2011)

> Ibanez plugged in updates
> 
> *ARZ400T: Short Story of a Long Neck *  As one member of the Ibanez team puts it: "We designed the ARZ from the ground-up to be the perfect metal machine." One look at the ARZ400T's *25" scale* and its *EMG H4s*, and that statement may seem obvious to seasoned players. But to those unfamiliar with the effects of alternate scale lengths, here's why that spec might rock your world: Where standard scale guitars turn into sonic mush when tuned down to, say, to 'D' or 'C' the longer scaled ARZ400T retains higher tension when tuned down&#8212;resulting in tone that is still lively and full of sustain&#8230;
> 
> The 24 frets, 25 inch scale ARZ takes it beyond the boundaries of traditional single cutaway guitars. The smooth neck heel provides unrivaled playability, while the rigid Tight-Tune bridge and EMG® Pickups make the ARZ ideal for today's metal players, who demand both heavy power chords and shredding solos.


let me get this strraight - 25" is an extended scale? 
Seasoned players know short scale lengths turn to mush when tuned down a couple of steps? So why market a 25"scale as an extended scale when every single RG comes stock standard at 25.5" and all the baritone guitars have scales up to 27"

wtf, of all companies thinking the average guitarist is an idiot I didn't expect this from Ibanez.


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## celticelk (Sep 14, 2011)

I wondered about this too. If one is VERY generous, one could argue that for a Les Paul-style instrument, 25" is an "extended scale," since the PL is traditionally a 24.75"-scale instrument. I think that's a bullshit argument, personally, but it's the only thing I could think of.

[EDIT: 200th post! I'd hoped to have it on my OAF build thread; guess I just can't keep my mouth shut.]


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## Valennic (Sep 14, 2011)

They're trying to trick the retards who adore Ibanez's. Sad thing is, I love the shit out of them, and so does most of this board, but that's designed to trick the 14 year olds into thinking it'll hit the brutalz.


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## Bloody_Inferno (Sep 14, 2011)

Yes because the people stuck in the SS.ORG bubble still think that 27 scale 7 strings are the kvlt and tr00. 

There's been plenty of players who have no problem with tuning down even on your average 25.5 scale. Hell, even Mastodon and Amon Amarth have no problems with tuning down to as low as A with a 24.75 scale. 

Even with the rise of djent, or any super low tuned metal for that matter, the seven string guitar is still an instrument that appeals to only a niche market.


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## Setnakt (Sep 14, 2011)

If 7 strings and baritones are so obscure that something smaller than a Stratocaster is considered a low-tuned metal machine, there is no hope.


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## troyguitar (Sep 14, 2011)

It's extended for an LP/Artist.


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## Perplexed-Perception (Sep 15, 2011)

in my opinion ibanez are pretty overpriced for what they are and for that reason i don't think i could ever take them seriously


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## Lankles (Sep 15, 2011)

I suppose it makes sense if you assume where they say "standard scale" they actually are referring to standard 24.75" scale.


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## Setnakt (Sep 15, 2011)

troyguitar said:


> It's extended for an LP/Artist.



So is 28".  And that would actually be extended scale.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Sep 15, 2011)

troyguitar said:


> It's extended for an LP/Artist.



This.


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## pink freud (Sep 15, 2011)

They might be on to something. 

Have to experiment with B standard on a Fender Jaguar maybe...


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## TelosHedge (Sep 15, 2011)

it is what it is. 

i don't think they think less of us, i just think they need a new marketing editor.


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## Setnakt (Sep 15, 2011)

The problem is where they say


> We designed the ARZ from the ground-up to be the perfect metal machine.


The argument you guys are making is that they slightly altered some specs on an LP. Their literature says otherwise. If they actually designed this from the ground up for low tunings then they're retarded. If they slightly altered an LP then they should say that instead.


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## anne (Sep 15, 2011)

The problem is they're telling you .25" is going to rock your world. The quarter pound of extra tension is nothing, so it's basically false advertising.

Also lol at Ibanez being overpriced?


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## TelosHedge (Sep 15, 2011)

anne said:


> The quarter pound of extra tension is nothing, so it's basically false advertising.



is that how it works? 1/2" = ~1/4lb of pressure? that's a cool little thing to know!


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## nojyeloot (Sep 15, 2011)

OP: I'm not saying "it for sure is", but, it could be a couple of type-Os. 

Anyone have one of these ARZ400Ts that they've measured to prove that they're really 25"?


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 15, 2011)

Roughly three years on this site and _I_ think the average guitarist is an idiot.


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## Church2224 (Sep 15, 2011)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Roughly three years on this site and _I_ think the average guitarist is an idiot.



I have been active for about 7 months here and I think the same thing.


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## TelosHedge (Sep 15, 2011)

lol who can argue with that??


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## The Norsemen (Sep 15, 2011)

Aside from the fine folk on SS.Org,

Most Ibanez players are ignorant kids who think Ibanez is the most brutal guitar company on the planet and is the end all of guitars. 
I group them with the people who think their Bronze series warlocks are the best guitars ever.

The whole downtuning thing is absolute nonsense.
Like that quarter inch with Drop D is such a huge difference.
Maybe in the eyes of a LP player it is.

I played in B standard on a 24.75 scale with a .60 and it was tighter than my B on my 26.5 scale 8 string with a .66.


I personally don't like Ibanez. (Unrelated to this)
They dont make shit for lefties anyhow.


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## XEN (Sep 15, 2011)

I can see it as a metal machine if you consider BLS metal. To my ears it's hard rock, but to a mainstream ear it's as metal as it gets.

That being said I loved the feel of the AX7521 at 24.75" so I would definitely not rule this one out if I were in the market for a 7. The 25" scale, while not "extended" per se, is still great for low B.
Still, the Schecter ATX Solo 7 would probably be my pick.


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## in-pursuit (Sep 15, 2011)

Lankles said:


> I suppose it makes sense if you assume where they say "standard scale" they actually are referring to standard 24.75" scale.



LANKYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!


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## JPMike (Sep 15, 2011)

Maybe the translation was wrong from Japanese to English?


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## Cheesebuiscut (Sep 15, 2011)

troyguitar said:


> It's extended for an LP/Artist.



Well shit, if only PRS realized they'd been making guitars for low tuned metal mayhem they could have been marketing it on their 25" single cuts this whole time!!!

Poor them. 
(The rest of this isn't directed at troy specifically)


This isn't an extended scale, its a short scale instrument they're marketing as extended scale. 

To all the people saying 24.75 or 25" is fine for their low tuned stuff, that's great for you! No one said hey were un-usable in that situation! You're still missing the _entire point_ the OP is trying to make.

Here since people for some reason can't read the initial quote properly.

ARZ400T: Short Story of a Long Neck...

One look at the ARZ400T's *25" scale*

Where *standard scale guitars* turn into sonic mush when tuned down to, say, to 'D' or 'C' the *longer scaled* ARZ400T retains *higher tension* when tuned downresulting in tone that is still lively and full of sustain

Oh hey there gai's, a standard scale guitar is 25.5"! This guitar is 25"! Its a *shorter* scale length then a _standard scale guitar_... which means it retains *lower* tension when tuned down with the same strings.

Kthxbai


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## XEN (Sep 15, 2011)

Cheesebuiscut said:


> You're still missing the _entire point_ the OP is trying to make.


Didn't miss the point at all. It was well made and didn't need to be repeated.
I just happen to like the guitar no matter how poor the marketing for it happens to be.
Also, since it's not an ERG and only has 7 strings, it's in the wrong section.


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## Cheesebuiscut (Sep 15, 2011)

Judging by the posts and the likes a lot of people did miss the point. No one was arguing that you couldn't use a short scale for low tuned stuff or asking if people do like using it etc etc

and a 7 string is an erg technically, but uh... its a 6 string.


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## XEN (Sep 15, 2011)

Cheesebuiscut said:


> Judging by the posts and the likes a lot of people did miss the point. No one was arguing that you couldn't use a short scale for low tuned stuff or asking if people do like using it etc etc
> 
> and a 7 string is an erg technically, but uh... its a 6 string.


True! urklvt literacy fail! 
I'm quite socially inept and it's been a busy week at work so I've exceeded my quota. It's makes me even more awkward than I already am!


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## guitarister7321 (Sep 15, 2011)

Yeah, I noticed they were 25 inch scale earlier today and was all like "What the fuck."


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## The_Mop (Sep 16, 2011)

Tbh, guitar advertising should never really be listened to. Its just a sea of subjective buzzwords like 'tone' and 'feel' and shite like that. Complete bollocks.


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## Ishan (Sep 16, 2011)

You guys are over thinking this, it's just bad marketing. They make a big fuss about it being longer scale than most similar Les Paul shaped guitar, but it's by a ridiculously funny .25"  It doesn't go beyond that, bad marketing.


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## pink freud (Sep 16, 2011)

Has anybody thought that maybe they simply mistakenly hired Rondo's description writer?


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## TelosHedge (Sep 16, 2011)

pink freud said:


> Has anybody thought that maybe they simply mistakenly hired Rondo's description writer?



ahahahahahahahaha!!! we have a winner!!!


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## Lankles (Sep 16, 2011)

Cheesebuiscut said:


> Oh hey there gai's, a standard scale guitar is 25.5"! This guitar is 25"! Its a *shorter* scale length then a _standard scale guitar_... which means it retains *lower* tension when tuned down with the same strings.
> Kthxbai



I don't know if it's like that any more, but for a long time 25.5" was known as Long Scale, to differentiate it from 24.75" Standard Scale. 

No flames.


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## Cheesebuiscut (Sep 16, 2011)

Fair enough, it might have been that way at one time. As far as my generation I've always known it as standard / fender scale (25.5) and short / gibson scale (24.75)

Then a lot of people would refer to 25" as prs scale, 27" as baritone. Everything else is usually just referred to by scale.


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## EJA (Sep 16, 2011)

It's very simple.

A teenager can't play his favorite songs by a band that tunes to drop D or C (which is what's mentioned in the ad).

Instead of working hard and practicing at the craft, they turn to the internet for a reason as to why it's not "working".

Here is Ibanez's answer: "You don't have our guitar! That's why you can't play Lamb of God!"

I have a student who's into metal and for awhile he was only playing on a Fender squire.

He was CONVINCED that the reason why he couldn't get the sound he heard in his head was due to the guitar.

So convinced that if I'd borrow his guitar to show the pinched harmonic in Laid to Rest is certainly possible, as well as the metal 'sound', but he still didn't get it.

Instead of being patient, practicing, etc. He went out and bought a new guitar. He still can't do the things he wants to and consistently asks me why it doesn't work for him. 

From other students I've heard similar things:
"I don't do alternate picking cause I can't get it to sound good"
"The neck pickup helps me shred better"

This is very typical amongst young guitar players. They think there's a secret, or a button to push, or something. This ad plays into that--it's not fair. But telling them to practice and learn won't make them money...so there ya go!


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## Demiurge (Sep 16, 2011)

EJA said:


> This is very typical amongst young guitar players. They think there's a secret, or a button to push, or something. This ad plays into that--it's not fair. But telling them to practice and learn won't make them money...so there ya go!



So true. Hell, I've been playing for 16 years and still catch myself in that kind of "magical thinking" every so often.


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## EJA (Sep 16, 2011)

Oh absolutely! I think we all do. But for young kids starting out, its hard to realize that's what's going on.


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## BigPhi84 (Sep 16, 2011)

Cheesebuiscut said:


> Well shit, if only PRS realized they'd been making guitars for low tuned metal mayhem they could have been marketing it on their 25" single cuts this whole time!!!



They're actually 24.5" inches!!!!  (The doublecuts are 25" inches.)


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## Cheesebuiscut (Sep 16, 2011)

It depends on the model, all of the se's are 25" but stuff like the starla and the more vintage looking ones are 24.5


NOW FIND ME A CHEAP PACKET SOY SAUCE IN A BOTTLE.


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## troyguitar (Sep 16, 2011)

EJA said:


> This is very typical amongst young guitar players. They think there's a secret, or a button to push, or something. This ad plays into that--it's not fair. But telling them to practice and learn won't make them money...so there ya go!



We have plenty of those sentiments around here too...

"You need a 30" scale, BKP's, 4 compressors, 3 noisegates, a tubescreamer, and a $2000+ tube amp for teh djentz!"


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## Setnakt (Sep 17, 2011)

I don't think wanting a good amp, a compressor and a baritone guitar for low-tuned, technically demanding music counts as "magical" thinking.


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## Cheesebuiscut (Sep 17, 2011)




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## RockerAlex (Sep 17, 2011)

Name dropping your favourite big metal bands doesn't make 1 scale length better or more logical than another ...

For 7 and 8 string guitars, you should certainly be FAR over 25.5"


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## SenorDingDong (Sep 17, 2011)

I don't like Ibanez, but that being said, most guitarists don't do nearly enough research to know any better, so they're taking full advantage of that.


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## orakle (Sep 17, 2011)

"The end justifies the means" - Niccolò Machiavelli


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## celticelk (Sep 17, 2011)

RockerAlex said:


> Name dropping your favourite big metal bands doesn't make 1 scale length better or more logical than another ...
> 
> For 7 and 8 string guitars, you should certainly be FAR over 25.5"



Insert Explorer's standard rebuttal here....


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## troyguitar (Sep 17, 2011)

RockerAlex said:


> For 7 and 8 string guitars, you should certainly be FAR over 25.5"



Another fine example of a silly myth perpetuated by young guitarists.


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## RockerAlex (Sep 17, 2011)

troyguitar said:


> Another fine example of a silly myth perpetuated by young guitarists.



There's no myth, if you don't want to be playing with rope thickness strings then lengthen your scale. Personally, I've found 0.80 gauge strings on a 26.5" to be FAR FAR too floppy and there's no way I'd ever step into 0.90 territory, to me, that's ridiculous.

The myth is that kiddies think longer scales will be "harder" to play on.


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## Greatoliver (Sep 17, 2011)

RockerAlex said:


> There's no myth, if you don't want to be playing with rope thickness strings then lengthen your scale. Personally, I've found 0.80 gauge strings on a 26.5" to be FAR FAR too floppy and there's no way I'd ever step into 0.90 territory, to me, that's ridiculous.
> 
> The myth is that kiddies think longer scales will be "harder" to play on.



Well, that's true, but you assumed a lot with your previous statement... You assume people tune down on sevens, and that people don't like the feel of thick strings. There is no "should" - you are stating your opinion as fact, which is why people are rebutting 

And longer scales can mean longer stretches at the bottom frets, so are harder in that respect.


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## BigPhi84 (Sep 17, 2011)

Greatoliver said:


> Well, that's true, but you assumed a lot with your previous statement... You assume people tune down on sevens, and that people don't like the feel of thick strings. There is no "should" - you are stating your opinion as fact, which is why people are rebutting
> 
> And longer scales can mean longer stretches at the bottom frets, so are harder in that respect.



Plus, bending is harder on longer scale lengths. That's why I don't play my RG1077XL anymore, unless it's just run-of-the-mill rhythm guitar work.


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## eurolove (Sep 17, 2011)

its really insulting i find. they really do have no interest in appealing to guitarist who research even a tiny bit into how guitars work. they actually also have very little interest in target audience research, they would sell soo many more guitars to the sevenstring crowd if.... i don't know maybe they went on this forum? ive only spent around 7 months on here and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that a 7 string, 26.5", mahogany body, crunch lab liq/d -sonic/any half decent dimarzio with a non shit trem would sell looooads. instead of putting effort into sly rhetoric which markets a standard feature as something new, i would have so much more respect for ibanez if they did more research into more clued up players. look a rondomusic, its a well researched site where the research kurt does means he sells more guitars, a prime example is the increase in passive pickup models which is in touch with the rise in people wanting passive pickups. it seems that ibanez is a bit out of touch with its target audience.

/rant


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## RockerAlex (Sep 17, 2011)

Greatoliver said:


> Well, that's true, but you assumed a lot with your previous statement... You assume people tune down on sevens, and that people don't like the feel of thick strings. There is no "should" - you are stating your opinion as fact, which is why people are rebutting
> 
> And longer scales can mean longer stretches at the bottom frets, so are harder in that respect.



Just to clarify, I was talking about 8 strings more than 7. 26.5" is fine for 7.


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## Hemi-Powered Drone (Sep 17, 2011)

eurolove said:


> its really insulting i find. they really do have no interest in appealing to guitarist who research even a tiny bit into how guitars work. they actually also have very little interest in target audience research, they would sell soo many more guitars to the sevenstring crowd if.... i don't know maybe they went on this forum? ive only spent around 7 months on here and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that a 7 string, 26.5", mahogany body, crunch lab liq/d -sonic/any half decent dimarzio with a non shit trem would sell looooads. instead of putting effort into sly rhetoric which markets a standard feature as something new, i would have so much more respect for ibanez if they did more research into more clued up players. look a rondomusic, its a well researched site where the research kurt does means he sells more guitars, a prime example is the increase in passive pickup models which is in touch with the rise in people wanting passive pickups. it seems that ibanez is a bit out of touch with its target audience.
> 
> /rant



This, my friends, is a fine example of the Sevenstring.org Bubble Effect.


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## eurolove (Sep 17, 2011)

dragonblade629 said:


> This, my friends, is a fine example of the Sevenstring.org Bubble Effect.



bubble as in i am stuck in my own little ss.org bubble oblivious to the bigger picture? if so you, got me  i still think that when it comes to more niche items like guitars with more strings that ibanez could put a little more effort into research.


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## SirMyghin (Sep 17, 2011)

Cheesebuiscut said:


> Oh hey there gai's, a standard scale guitar is 25.5"! This guitar is 25"! Its a *shorter* scale length then a _standard scale guitar_... which means it retains *lower* tension when tuned down with the same strings.
> 
> Kthxbai



25.5 is typically referred to as long scale, not standard.


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## gunshow86de (Sep 17, 2011)

At their price point, I think the "metal machine" the ARZ's are competing with is the LTD EC-series, which are 24.75" scale. Therefore, 25">24.75", hence the "extended scale." Not a huge deal, but if you are trying to reach your market, you make a big deal about anything you feel is "better" than the competition.


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## Cheesebuiscut (Sep 17, 2011)

BigPhi84 said:


> Plus, bending is harder on longer scale lengths. That's why I don't play my RG1077XL anymore, unless it's just run-of-the-mill rhythm guitar work.



I found the opposite since perceived tension seems to go down on longer scales. Someone else on this forum explained it better than I could, basically said something along the lines of

"if you try to push a small rubber band pulled taught down at the center it will be more difficult than trying to push a larger / longer rubber band down at the center. That's because there's less rubber band to stretch out so it immediately creates more resistance vs the extra stretching the longer band allows."

Its the same reason why on a 6+ in line headstock the machinehead farthest away from the nut has the loosest feeling string where the machinehead closest to the nut has the tightest.

I'm pushing like 16-21lbs on my pendulum, I never went above 15 on a 25.5".


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## Setnakt (Sep 17, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> 25.5 is typically referred to as long scale, not standard.



Then this is still wrong. If 25.5" is long, why is 25" "extended"?


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## Cheesebuiscut (Sep 17, 2011)

I've never once heard 25.5" referred to as "long scale" before this thread, its always been standard.


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## Lankles (Sep 17, 2011)

Setnakt said:


> Then this is still wrong. If 25.5" is long, why is 25" "extended"?



It isn't. It's "alternate". 



dragonblade629 said:


> This, my friends, is a fine example of the Sevenstring.org Bubble Effect.



I don't know dude, he was explicitly referring to "the sevenstring crowd".


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 17, 2011)

Cheesebuiscut said:


> I've never once heard 25.5" referred to as "long scale" before this thread, its always been standard.



Because to many 24.75" is "Standard" scale.

Before 25.5" scale guitars became so ubiquitous in the early 60's 90% of guitars had shorter scales.


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## Hemi-Powered Drone (Sep 17, 2011)

Lankles said:


> It isn't. It's "alternate".
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know dude, he was explicitly referring to "the sevenstring crowd".



But he mentioned they would sell a lot. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't because, for the most part, we have weird, extremely specific tastes.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 17, 2011)

dragonblade629 said:


> we have weird, extremely specific tastes.



So much this. Look at all the spec poll threads (Agile, PRS SE, Sig., etc. etc.), you get a whole lot of folks with VERY different needs, and most are not willing to compromise, not even a little.


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## Cheesebuiscut (Sep 17, 2011)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Because to many 24.75" is "Standard" scale.
> 
> Before 25.5" scale guitars became so ubiquitous in the early 60's 90% of guitars had shorter scales.



I understand that and its cool, but standards change.

25.5" has been the "standard" for a while now.


edit: Whats worse is people are busy trying to pick what people are saying apart in this thread and justifying ibanez's shitty ad that is clearly giving misinformation.


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## EJA (Sep 17, 2011)

I guess it depends on who you talk to.

The luthier at my shop always refers to 24.75 as a short scale, and he's been doing it for 40+ years. I've met some die hard Paul players who think of a strat as an 'extended-scale'.

If you're of the impression that a certain type of pickup, amp, scale length, string thickness, etc. _inherently_ contains the characteristics you're looking for, you're in a "bubble".

Yes, a 30" scale length can make a 'difference'--but you need to be able to play the damn thing first. 

Having good gear and certain specs is always a 'plus' and will vary from player to player in terms of what that 'plus' is.


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## BIG ND SWEATY (Sep 18, 2011)

Bloody_Inferno said:


> Yes because the people stuck in the SS.ORG bubble still think that 27 scale 7 strings are the kvlt and tr00.
> 
> There's been plenty of players who have no problem with tuning down even on your average 25.5 scale. Hell, even Mastodon and Amon Amarth have no problems with tuning down to as low as A with a 24.75 scale.
> 
> Even with the rise of djent, or any super low tuned metal for that matter, the seven string guitar is still an instrument that appeals to only a niche market.


i tune down to drop G on a 24.75


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## Adari (Sep 18, 2011)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Because to many 24.75" is "Standard" scale.
> 
> Before 25.5" scale guitars became so ubiquitous in the early 60's 90% of guitars had shorter scales.



Classical guitars were around since long before the 60s. If you attribute the basic design of the guitar to Torres, his consistent 25.6" scale length (still used by most classical guitar manufacturers today) could be considered standard. 

My point is that there is no way we can say that either 24.75" or 25.5" is standard. To me, it makes much more sense to say that *a scale length of between 24.75" and 25.5" is standard*, in which case this new Ibanez has neither a long nor extended scale


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## Setnakt (Sep 18, 2011)

The issue is not whether you can tune wherever you want with whatever string you want on whatever guitar you want. Obviously you can.

The issue is how well certain things work on certain guitars with certain strings. There is a certain character of tone that you can get with some tunings on a 30" scale guitar that is physically impossible to achieve on a 24" scale guitar.

You do not have to live in a "bubble" to understand the concept of a string thickness ratio, or the idea of optimal specifications for a guitar meant to be tuned lower than standard.


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## eurolove (Sep 18, 2011)

MaxOfMetal said:


> So much this. Look at all the spec poll threads (Agile, PRS SE, Sig., etc. etc.), you get a whole lot of folks with VERY different needs, and most are not willing to compromise, not even a little.



do you really think that dimarzios on top range models instead of uvv/cap/countless ibanez pickups not many seem to be happy with, would not sell more models? image the new rgd2127z with a mahogany and crunch lab liquifire. would be a pretty tough choice between this and jp7 right?


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## Winspear (Sep 18, 2011)

eurolove said:


> do you really think that dimarzios on top range models instead of uvv/cap/countless ibanez pickups not many seem to be happy with, would not sell more models? image the new rgd2127z with a mahogany and crunch lab liquifire. would be a pretty tough choice between this and jp7 right?



I'll quote myself from another thread;


> I think pickups that come with a guitar are just like the strings - Perfectly usable for the mass market who don't really care, (hopefully) not adding significantly to the price, and to be changed out to the owners preference.
> 
> I don't see a point in cranking up the price of a guitar and putting in better pickups, when the minority who really care will have a whole assortment of other pickups they would rather have.


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## eurolove (Sep 18, 2011)

EtherealEntity said:


> I'll quote myself from another thread;



i think you have a valid point, i seem to have neglected thinking about the people who will just buy a guitar without researching into it too much. but i think that guitars like that one for example are going to be bought by people who actually give a shit. i dont see some "average guitar dude" going out and buying a prestige 7 string. and do many people who own jp7s swap out the pickups?


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## Winspear (Sep 18, 2011)

^ I mean it from both points of view. I don't know about the jp7, just speaking on pickups in general.

Casual players do not care about the pickups nor do they want to pay an extra £100 for a good pair.

People who do have preferences for pickups aren't going to want to spend an extra £100 on a guitar because it has some nice pickups, when chances are they have a specific pickup they want to install, costing them even more money. Out of all the high end pickups there are to choose from, it's unlikely that their guitar of choice is going to come with the ones they are looking for.


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## eurolove (Sep 18, 2011)

EtherealEntity said:


> ^ I mean it from both points of view. I don't know about the jp7, just speaking on pickups in general.
> 
> Casual players do not care about the pickups nor do they want to pay an extra £100 for a good pair.
> 
> People who do have preferences for pickups aren't going to want to spend an extra £100 on a guitar because it has some nice pickups, when chances are they have a specific pickup they want to install, costing them even more money. Out of all the high end pickups there are to choose from, it's unlikely that their guitar of choice is going to come with the ones they are looking for.


 with that logic, all guitar companies should sell their higher range guitars with no pickups and bring the price down even more- which come to think of it, would be a interesting idea. i wouldn't mind saving $70 off a rga8 if it didnt come with the lz3 pickups, hell it would probably cost less for a tech to install ones of your choice too because it saves the bother of ripping stuff out.


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## Cheesebuiscut (Sep 18, 2011)

eurolove said:


> with that logic, all guitar companies should sell their higher range guitars with no pickups and bring the price down even more-



I wish.


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## SirMyghin (Sep 18, 2011)

Setnakt said:


> Then this is still wrong. If 25.5" is long, why is 25" "extended"?



because it is longer than standard, any increase in length can be defined as an extension, and is therefore extended.  A pretty simple concept overall.


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## TheBotquax (Sep 18, 2011)

EJA said:


> From other students I've heard similar things:
> "I don't do alternate picking cause I can't get it to sound good"
> "The neck pickup helps me shred better"



B-b-but...
The neck pickup DOES help me shred better!

But in all reality, I know exactly what you mean, whenever I go into guitar center and show off my shredding meedley-meddley skills, people always treat me as though I'm just some kid who magically learned the guitar in a day. They act like because I'm young, I must have "natural talent" (they always say that) or something dumb crap like that. It's those kind of people who can't commit to their instruments, and blame factors beyond their control for their shitty playing that end up falling for blatantly idiotic guitar ads


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## xtrustisyoursx (Sep 18, 2011)

TheBotquax said:


> ...I go into guitar center and show off my shredding meedley-meddley skills



No, this is why people don't like you.


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## Jakke (Sep 18, 2011)

xtrustisyoursx said:


> No, this is why people don't like you.



But it's still better than the -core kids who assemble en masse around the first available SS amp to crank out some br000ttzz. I'm extremely bitter against these so-called metalheads who sabotage my first three minutes in a guitarshop when I always has to tune up every guitar that looks the least bit metal from drop-tuning







^This is the enemy...


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## pink freud (Sep 18, 2011)

RockerAlex said:


> Name dropping your favourite big metal bands doesn't make 1 scale length better or more logical than another ...
> 
> For 7 and 8 string guitars, you should certainly be FAR over 25.5"



My Agile T-7 is drop-A


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## troyguitar (Sep 18, 2011)

Just brought home an extended scale ARZ307 an hour ago


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## Winspear (Sep 18, 2011)

But does it djent?


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## RockerAlex (Sep 18, 2011)

pink freud said:


> My Agile T-7 is drop-A



Drop A is 1 tone below a regular 7 string tuning ... what's your point here?


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## TheBotquax (Sep 18, 2011)

lolwut wrong thread


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## eurolove (Sep 18, 2011)

wow, just wow. this thread is so off topic it not even funny.


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## Diggy (Sep 18, 2011)

Assuming the paragraph in the OP is not being taken out of context (LP or LTD EC being mentioned in reference to the Ibanez somewhere else in story), I don't care how you try and justify it, Ibanez is lame for calling a 25" scale guitar extended.

so to the OP..  

Among almost all guitars that any of us would consider being a part of the discussion of scale length, I think its safe to say that 24.75" LP scale is a short scale.. I mean, consider what 24.75" scale length is relative to in the market of guitars... 25", 25.5", 26", 26.5" 27".. etc.. 24.75" is not extended, long, standard.. its short and so is the 25" Ibanez. 

Now, the the evolution of the guitar has changed the game over the years and I understand that.. but so should any marketing manager when making statements judging scale length.


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## in-pursuit (Sep 18, 2011)

I don't know if anyone pointed this out already, but the thread title is pretty ironic. I don't think there's much to get your knickers in a knot about here. By putting something like that in the description of the product, they're promoting the idea of extended scale. Most people who read that will think "what the fuck, extended scale?" and will promptly be confronted with an aspect of guitar construction that they never knew about before. The flow on effect from this is really only going to mean that a lot more people will know about extended scales, some of those people will then investigate further into even longer scale length guitars and their benefits, and maybe one day down the track we'll all get more options from Ibanez's catalogue when it comes to ERG's and baritone instruments. 

that's how I'm gonna choose to look at this anyways.


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## trickae (Sep 19, 2011)

Lmao

I was expecting a two post reply going



> " omgwtfbbq them marketting ppl - do they even play teh Geetarz!?1"


or 



> " C'mon Ibanez have had better marketting campaigns throughout the 80's with shred, 90's with nu metal, 2000's with uber brootoolz metalcore!"


Lol this thread blew up into a 4 page off topic war agains tunning to b in 24.75 or 30" ?!?!

Honestly the artcore series isn;t a bad guitar - but even at 25" i wouldn't consider it an extended or long range scale. Its pretty standard in my eyes. I posted this in the entended range forum because hey this is marketted as extended when it's clearly not. 

As for the trends guitarists fall for - well shoot me - all guitarists jump on some sort of trend. 

I grew up with big kids who still rock tight jeans and mullets and blast alice in chains down the road, Nu metal was the beez neez in my day, i teach metal core to kids when I'd compare lamb of God to britney spears in my list of awesome artists. 

I too fell for the sevenstring.org hype, where I must have CL/LF combo, BKP's and must own a Jcustom. Hell I used to post in the JEM/UV thread at Jemsite since I was 21. 

It all changed when my guitar teacher blew me away with his chops - with 3-4mil action, stock V1, V2, S pickups and a standard amp and a 1980's RG550. He plays along to full vai and satch albums - wtf!. 

So guys relax - 24.75 is fine for some, 30" is fine for others. There's a market for both worlds. Its just that a company may know where there market exisits, but may not market their products in the best possible way. 

now make peace damnit.


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## RockerAlex (Sep 19, 2011)

trickae said:


> Lmao
> 
> I was expecting a two post reply going
> 
> ...



What I find funny too is you get pedantic arseholes that go into great depth to explain why 25.5" is "fine" for an 8 string just so they can stroke their e penises.

Just no.


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## Mindcrime1204 (Sep 19, 2011)

trickae said:


> I too fell for the sevenstring.org hype, where I must have CL/LF combo, BKP's and must own a Jcustom. Hell I used to post in the JEM/UV thread at Jemsite since I was 21.


 

That would be a great combo.... J.Custom with CL/LF... it's prolly hyped/popular because they're great pieces of gear and this is mostly a metal forum.

Im sure the Blues/Country forums hype up some sort of noisless pups/twangy pups combined with a USA Custom Strat or Suhr.


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## trickae (Sep 19, 2011)

RockerAlex said:


> What I find funny too is you get pedantic arseholes that go into great depth to explain why 25.5" is "fine" for an 8 string just so they can stroke their e penises.
> 
> Just no.


tell me about it - I don't get how anyone would consider getting a custom 8 string at 25.5" wtf.



Mindcrime1204 said:


> That would be a great combo.... J.Custom with CL/LF... it's prolly hyped/popular because they're great pieces of gear and this is mostly a metal forum.
> 
> Im sure the Blues/Country forums hype up some sort of noisless pups/twangy pups combined with a USA Custom Strat or Suhr.



Lol i have BKP's in my jcustom. Honestly the aftermaths lack the added crunch compared to CL/LF. Misha was right - that BKP's do market the aftermaths as high output when they are slighltly less output than Dimarzio's. However what they lack in output they make up with clarity and quietness. 

The CL/LF combo is solid - but i do miss my PAF Pro clean tone . 

But thats another whinge story for the jemsite forums.


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## Guitarman700 (Sep 19, 2011)

RockerAlex said:


> What I find funny too is you get pedantic arseholes that go into great depth to explain why 25.5" is "fine" for an 8 string just so they can stroke their e penises.
> 
> Just no.



Maybe it's because people like you who post in EVERY thread like this throwing around misinformation about scale length. I know people on this board do fine with 25.5. Just because you had a bad experience with one guitar does not mean that everyone will. That's a logical fallacy.


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 19, 2011)

Ever hear the saying "Everything is relative"? 25" IS an extended scale relative to the guitar in question like many others have already said. It's not that serious. This is one of those situations where my dad would tell me, "As long as YOU know better, leave it at that."


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 19, 2011)

trickae said:


> tell me about it - I don't get how anyone would consider getting a custom 8 string at 25.5" wtf.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Perhaps when they say high output they mean high output RELATIVE to the rest of their line of pickups... 

Yea... I might use that word one more time.


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## pink freud (Sep 19, 2011)

RockerAlex said:


> Drop A is 1 tone below a regular 7 string tuning ... what's your point here?



It's below the regular tuning and is a 25.5" scale. And it works just fine.


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## Setnakt (Sep 19, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> Ever hear the saying "Everything is relative"? 25" IS an extended scale relative to the guitar in question like many others have already said. It's not that serious. This is one of those situations where my dad would tell me, "As long as YOU know better, leave it at that."





"Relative" to this, a 24" scale Fender Jaguar is "extended". And since "everything is relative," I believe it to be pertinent to the argument.

Just because you could probably tune a .175 gauge bass string on a short scale guitar to drop E000 does not mean it is a good idea.


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 19, 2011)

Relative to what? I think you just made a stupid attempt at a smart ass comment. My comment very specifically mentioned that the scale is extended relative to the guitar in question. In other words, that guitar typically does not come in that scale length, thus anything longer is extended FOR THAT GUITAR. Don't be a pain in the ass.


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## Setnakt (Sep 19, 2011)

Relative to a 1/16 size violin, if you can't see the video.

You can say that any particular kind of guitar's "standard" scale is anything you want, but the point is that there is a scale length range that should generally be considered "extended."

Call me stupid all you want, but a guitar with a shorter scale length than a Stratocaster does not say to me that it is meant to be tuned lower than a factory spec Stratocaster.


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## Cheesebuiscut (Sep 19, 2011)

Konfy you lose this one, all of the arz guitars are 25" so that points moot as well. 

The only thing they tried to do with this to make it perfect for metulz is put emg's in it and paint it black. Now you can drop tune all you want.


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## troyguitar (Sep 19, 2011)

Cheesebuiscut said:


> Konfy you lose this one, all of the arz guitars are 25" so that points moot as well.
> 
> The only thing they tried to do with this to make it perfect for metulz is put emg's in it and paint it black. Now you can drop tune all you want.



You do know that the ARZ guitars are all new, right? The ARZ is the new Artist series which has a scale length of 25" instead of 24.75" like every other Artist before it. The scale length of the AR*Z* has been _extended_ beyond that of the regular ART for tuning down to Drop Z for maximum chuggas.


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## Cheesebuiscut (Sep 19, 2011)

O MA GAW NO WAI! I DIDN'T KNOW THAT

HERP

Stop trying so desperately to justify ibanez's horrible marketing, if you read the ad it says the arz400t's 25" scale length... etc as they are promoting that specific model for all of this jazz. 

That specific model is the newest one... which is the one they are promoting as the drop tuning metal machine!

and I don't need to tell you that .25" isn't going to make a damned difference for tuning lower unless you include semitones...

<insert pictures, feel superior>


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## Slunk Dragon (Sep 20, 2011)

*facepalm*

I am not absolutely in love with Ibanez as a company, but they really dropped a crappy one when they made that announcement. >_<


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## trickae (Sep 20, 2011)

facepalm.jpg 

Relative ...
damnit then we should include the 6,7,8 string guitars into this subforum sice they're extended range compared to a banjo. Also for extra long scale lengths we should inlcude everything from 24.75 to 30" since they're longer than a ukele. Then why have a subforum to begin with? 

Lmao. 

Point is - ibanez have lost their touch marketting to us hardcore fan boys. There was a time when if It read ibanez in an add - i would cut it out and stick it on my wall. Now i'm like - damn i ruined that pic by cutting it out . 

Here are my issues:
25" with subpar EMG's is being called a metal machine. 
25" being called LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG
seasoned players saying - dayum thats a metal monster!

Whoever wrote that add must be a 55 year old mother of 4 who never used the internet and thought the beegees were rad, rewatches xanadu and collects stamps. 

No offense to ladies like that - but seriously I wouldn't want her to be writting metal guitar adds for ibanez.

Sorry that must of sounded douchey.


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## electricred (Sep 20, 2011)

Just don't buy the guitar you herbs.


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## ProgShredder73 (Oct 15, 2011)

Valennic said:


> They're trying to trick the retards who adore Ibanez's. Sad thing is, I love the shit out of them, and so does most of this board, but that's designed to trick the 14 year olds into thinking it'll hit the brutalz.


 
hey man dont hate, im 14 and im not that stupid. i have a guitar with a 26.5" scale. xD


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## KAMI (Oct 16, 2011)

I sense the presence of:


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## rythmic_pulses (Oct 16, 2011)

I for one don't really care about scale's too much, I just play what I feel is comfortable and sounds good to me even if it's 25.5" or 28", If it sounds good, I'll buy it but not this guitar, I don't like LP shapes.


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