# Phil Anselmo shows his true colours (again...)



## Esp Griffyn (Jan 30, 2016)

Mr Anselmo has caused controversy again, this time giving a nazi salute and shouting "white power" at a D-bag tribute gig. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhmLtkWd5AA

Phil has said "Ok folks, Ill own this one, but dammit, I was joking, and the 'inside joke of the night' was because we were drinking f------ white wine," but given his previous form for this behaviour (including a rather dodgy "white pride"* speech video which I'm sure we've all seen), I'm inclined to believe he is now furiously back-pedaling to try to and clear his name. Imo, that didn't look like a joke and no one in this day and age, surely, is dumb enough to think that joking about white wine by doing a nazi salute and shouting "white power" would be a good idea?

What do you guys think?


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## coffeeflush (Jan 30, 2016)

Honestly, 
I don't think most people with half a decent mind care. His music post pantera sucks imo. So other then the trash that agrees with his racist point of view, no one really cares.


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## asher (Jan 30, 2016)




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## BucketheadRules (Jan 30, 2016)

Robb Flynn's take on this incident is worth watching.

I f*cking hate Anselmo, he's a really terrible human being.


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## Hogie34 (Jan 30, 2016)

This really is nothing new for him though. He's been spewing that crud since the beginning. He's always said one thing in interviews then on stage vomits hate... Anselmo is and always has been a douche no matter how "awesome" he was as a frontman for Pantera.


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## jwade (Jan 30, 2016)

Phil has a very long history of spouting his various racist ideologies onstage and then saying 'oh I was joking' 'freedom of speech' 'black people say bla bla bla'. Is it really any surprise that he got drunk and his go-to action was to flash a nazi sign?

I think the more surprising thing in all of this is that he's pounding back white wine, and clearly cannot handle the .... at all. I thought he and dime were both pretty into whisky.


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## Esp Griffyn (Jan 30, 2016)

coffeeflush said:


> Honestly,
> I don't think most people with half a decent mind care. His music post pantera sucks imo. So other then the trash that agrees with his racist point of view, no one really cares.



If your response to a prominent figure in the metal scene using clearly racist signs and statements is apathy, I'm not sure what to say.

Phil Anselmo is a big name in metal, a brand ambassador if you will. I certainly don't want in any way to be associated with anything he says.

I will say as well, I am against racism from all parties. I don't believe that any race, regardless of their historyshould get a free pass to behave in any way they feel - although some minorities do think they have that right. Likewise, I don't believe that white people should be to spout racist bile just because there is so much anti-white sentiment in society.


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## Aymara (Jan 30, 2016)

Esp Griffyn said:


> What do you guys think?



I think there's not much brain left in his head


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## jwade (Jan 30, 2016)




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## Duosphere (Jan 30, 2016)

Esp Griffyn said:


> What do you guys think?



TO ME prejudice is probably the dumbest thing our species created.If we were blind creatures, no one would care about colors and we'd judge people only by their CHARACTERS(see how this is dumb).
When I was about 12, at school a blind 12 years old boy in my classroom taught me an amazing lesson.I had this crush on that beautiful girl who probably would never talk to me(duh) and I was telling him how I wanted her.One day he asked me why I liked her.I replied because she was beautiful, hot, her hair was awesome, her boobies etc.Then he told me he had a crush for another girl who were fat and not beautiful.I told him she wasn't beautiful(duh, he was blind).Then that amazing lesson came.He told me he was able to see more than me because being blind, he judged people by their characters and not by their looking, the only thing he cared was the way that girl used to treat him.He also asked how could I have a crush on a girl I didn't know and I though she would never wants to talk to me?
That was a nuclear explosion in my head.
Probably because of that lesson I ALWAYS loved to get to know different people, different cultures, they added so much to my personality.
What about a world with only 1 ice cream flavor, that would be really boring. 

About Anselmo, some people are able to evolve, some not.


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## feraledge (Jan 30, 2016)

Phil distancing himself from the confederate flag was surprising, getting drunk Sieg Heiling and yelling "white power", sadly not so much. 
I never understood the allure of Pantera on any level, but on a "dirty south white boy" level the racism could never have been more than just under the surface. 
F_u_ck him and them.


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## BucketheadRules (Jan 30, 2016)

jwade said:


> I think the more surprising thing in all of this is that he's pounding back white wine, and clearly cannot handle the .... at all.



According to Robb Flynn, who was there, this is untrue - there wasn't any white wine backstage. In any case, it's an "inside joke" that the audience, to whom he was directing his speech, wouldn't have been in on anyway. So really it's just a f*cking terrible hasty excuse.


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## JohnIce (Jan 30, 2016)

I'm shocked that so many people don't think this is a big deal, even encouraging others to not make a big deal out of it. Actually I'm more pissed about it, honestly. Yes he's only doing a sieg heil and saying white power (btw: ), not physically harming anyone, so? How much damage through racism or homophobia or whatever can a single person actually do if they really wanted to? Not that much, that's the point! It's when a large group of people shrug it off or join in that real damage is done, or in this case just perpetuated. Phil doing this is disgusting but the people who shrug it off or even start talking about "well hold on now there are black racists too..." they're just an equally big part of the damn problem.


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## High Plains Drifter (Jan 30, 2016)

Hollow apology. 

If you are consistently, aggressively, drunkenly, openly "joking" about discriminatory subject matter then you seriously need to candidly consider who that image is, staring back at you in the mirror. Hateful/ racist emotions don't magically surface due to circumstances. Those feelings are already present and should be genuinely evaluated by that individual. 

I'm all for free-speech... but take your lumps accordingly and stop trying to "mend" your reputation after you decide that you can't take the heat.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 30, 2016)

"A drunk mouth speaks a sober mind."





Robb Flynn also said all that needs to be said.


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## fps (Jan 30, 2016)

I've been talking in a lot of other places about this, just so awful that someone can be so lucid, thoughtful and awesome but facts are facts and he's also a horrible racist. I'll not be buying any more music from any of this bands or attending any of his shows. Huge Pantera and Down fan here, enough is enough, he's 47 years old, poisonous things he says and does. 

The number of people defending him and saying it doesn't matter is also hugely depressing. Really takes the legs out from under what the metal scene should be standing for.


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## asher (Jan 30, 2016)

asher said:


>



Quoting myself for reference:

I was really going more for "dog bites man"/"dog barks at moon"/etc total lack of real surprise.

For having shown that he's at least a tiny bit thoughtful and can ditch the Confederate flag, he's still apparently awful.


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## big_aug (Jan 30, 2016)

If we disowned every artist or prominent figure who did something ....ty like this then I could get on board with bashing Phil. 

I like his music. I don't care what he says in his personal time. Bottom line is he can say whatever he wants. I don't agree, but that's how it is. He's allowed to do it. I'll still listen to Pantera, Down, and SJR. That is great music and I won't deprive myself of that pleasure because the singer is a racist. Life's to short for me to worry about this .....


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## Aymara (Jan 30, 2016)

All this reminds me of what happened in the Punk community back in the early 80ies. I will never forget the Peter & The Test Tube Babies concert, when a bunch of skinheads formed a circle in front of the stage and fighted a single punk guy. The band immediately stopped playing, dropped their guitars, jumped from the stage and kicked this bunch of idiots out of the club. Then they got back up on stage and said, that the concert will be over, if this happens again.

And thats the point ... no pardon ... no fascism or racism tolerance!


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## Zalbu (Jan 30, 2016)

Esp Griffyn said:


> What do you guys think?


Phil is a dickhead and Pantera died with Dimebag, what else is new?


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 30, 2016)

big_aug said:


> If we disowned every artist or prominent figure who did something ....ty like this then I could get on board with bashing Phil.
> 
> I like his music. I don't care what he says in his personal time. Bottom line is he can say whatever he wants. I don't agree, but that's how it is. He's allowed to do it. I'll still listen to Pantera, Down, and SJR. That is great music and I won't deprive myself of that pleasure because the singer is a racist. Life's to short for me to worry about this .....



He can say whatever he wants.

Which means we also have a right to call him out for stupid bull.... like this.

Also, he didn't say this .... during his "personal time." He did the nazi salute and white power .... _in front of a ....ing crowd at Dimebash. _

Once again, Robb said it best. "If this doesn't offend you, then f*ck you."


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## Rawkmann (Jan 30, 2016)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> He can say whatever he wants.
> 
> Which means we also have a right to call him out for stupid bull.... like this.
> 
> Also, he didn't say this .... during his "personal time." He did the nazi salute and white power .... _in front of a ....ing crowd at Dimebash. _



Exactly. There's a difference between not liking someone because they have a difference of opinion and giving up on someone because they are a hate monger.


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## Spinedriver (Jan 30, 2016)

Hopefully the number of people that actually _listen_ to anything Anselmo has to say is dwindling. I mean, if it wasn't for Dime, would he be where he is today ? Sometimes people can't help but let their ego get the better of them, regardless of how much it may be damaging their lives/careers.

I was never really a big Pantera fan but for every interview I've seen or story I've heard from other musicians, he's always been a bit of a goon to me. For years Lars Ulrich has always come across as a HUGE d-bag but I've found in recent years he's tamed his ego a bit and has done some really cool things for people, so it is possible to change. Sadly for others like Phil, he thinks people really dig the uber-macho shtick and refuses to give it up no matter how bad it makes him look.


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## max3000 (Jan 30, 2016)

Honestly I kinda feel bad for Phil.

At this point he's a stumbling drunkard clinging on to his past. I bet he thinks a lot about what his life would be like right now if he hadn't broken Pantera up. And I bet that kills him little by little, every day of his life.


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## Duosphere (Jan 30, 2016)

I just payed attention to this thread title and suddenly a pun came to my mind...

"Phil Anselmo shows his true *colours* (again...)"

But...

He has only one color 

Sorry, I had to laugh about that stupidity(not the title but racism).


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## Demiurge (Jan 30, 2016)

If white wine made people racist, every "girls' movie night" would turn into a Nazi rally.


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## aus-rotten (Jan 30, 2016)

I was outside Lucky Strike when this happened, someone kicked me in the head when I was in the pit during A New Level. Unaware I was bleeding everywhere and had to wait outside for paramedics 

Show ended, everyone moved outside, Phil saw me and gave me a hand shake and a hug. Everyone was wasted that night. 

My buddy was there too, and at the end of the set Phil started taking about Dimebag. Thats when some dude in the crowd started heckling him, he got all pissed off and started talking .... - host grabs the mic insert nazi salute.

I think Robb got heckled by the same guy during his little Dime speech as well, he didn't take it well - not as bad a phil though. 

Look I'm not sure if Phil is a Racist or not, I honestly do not care. Same goes for Dimebag who had a album with David Allen Coe. I mean listen to all the live stuff from Pantera, Phil is always yelling about white pride and such hell he had on a Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging shirt on MTV

Talking is Talking, once you start harming someone physically is when i have a problem. Think some of you boys need to spend a new nights in LA Twin Towers to see what real racism looks like.


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## Aymara (Jan 30, 2016)

aus-rotten said:


> Talking is Talking, ...



Not when racism comes out of the mouth of a VIP ... that's pretty much inacceptable


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 30, 2016)

Exacly. Phil is one of THE most well-known frontmen in metal. I'm glad people are finally not giving him a break and criticizing him when he deserves it. 

I don't care if he does the nazi salute and supports white supremecy, or beats the .... out of a minority. Racism is racism. *Stop fvcking defending it. * Grow the hell up and call out your idols when they deserve it, especially when it's been going on for decades, as is Phil's case.


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## Zalbu (Jan 30, 2016)

Heiling and yelling white power is quite a bit more than talk, why are you people trying to justify literal nazism?


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## Mangle (Jan 30, 2016)

I've been done with Anselmo ever since the end of Pantera. The way he turned on the guys in his own band said more about him than anything I ever wanted to hear from the dude in the first place.
After hearing what he had to say about Dime just before he was shot, I just wasn't interested in hearing anything more from or about him.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 30, 2016)

Zalbu said:


> Heiling and yelling white power is quite a bit more than talk, why are you people trying to justify literal nazism?



People are too scared to call out people they idolize. Everyone I've seen tried to use the "not our business" or the "he's done this for years", or the "he's just talking" excuse as seen above, all of which are terrible cop-outs.


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## curlyvice (Jan 30, 2016)

aus-rotten said:


> Talking is Talking, once you start harming someone physically is when i have a problem. Think some of you boys need to spend a new nights in LA Twin Towers to see what real racism looks like.



So you're saying what Anselmo did can't be defined as "real" racism? 
I think that's ridiculous. Simply because nobody got hurt doesn't mean it's not real racism. Phil's actions were entirely stupid and definitely racist. Real racist.

Like Flynn said, if this doesn't offend you......


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## Duosphere (Jan 30, 2016)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> People are too scared to call out people they idolize. Everyone I've seen tried to use the "not our business" or the "he's done this for years", or the "he's just talking" one as seen above, all of white are terrible excuses.



That's the problem of having idols.Usually people become as dumb as their idols and once they realize it, they give terrible excuses(like you said) about their behavior.I never had idols, I love DT, or Vai, or Myrath, or Kamelot *music*, not them as humans cause I don't know them.


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## Zalbu (Jan 30, 2016)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> all of *white *are terrible cop-outs.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 30, 2016)

Jesus Christ, terrible Freudian slip on my part.


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## Alex Kenivel (Jan 30, 2016)

Phil Anselmo needs to keep doing sh!t like this so the people can have a constant reminder of what a horrible person he is.


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## BucketheadRules (Jan 30, 2016)

Alex Kenivel said:


> Phil Anselmo needs to keep doing sh!t like this so the people can have a constant reminder of what a horrible person he is.





But yeah.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 30, 2016)

Dimebag&#39;s Girlfriend Accuses Robb Flynn Of &#39;Masking His Real Problem&#39; In Wake Of &#39;White Power&#39; Uproar - Blabbermouth.net


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## Jaxcharvel (Jan 30, 2016)

Pantera was the first truly heavy band I got in to. When Vulgar came out it was the most amazing thing i'd ever heard. To me Phil was the epitome of what a metal front man should be. And that continued throughout Pantera's lifespan. Well, Reinventing The Steel kinda sucked, but that album aside they were amazing. And I feel like without Phil it would have never reached the level that it did. Can anyone honestly imagine any Pantera album from CFH on without Phil? 

But all that aside, Phil has always been a giant douche. Watch the Pantera home videos if you don't believe me. And honestly, other than the first Down album (which was still during the Pantera years) everything since Pantera, in my opinion, has been abysmal. I mean, has anyone but me tried to actually listen to Phil Anselmo and the Illegals? 

Long story short, I don't really think Phil is a prominent figure in the metal community anymore. From an artistic standpoint, his early work was unbelievable, but his material the last 15 years or so has been subpar at best. And as a person he is about as appealing as an itchy butthole.


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## slapnutz (Jan 30, 2016)

I dunno... I love Pantera but I have to agree with Robb Flynn. Would Phil really have apologized if he wasn't called out on it?

Ironically everything Robb predicted about the comments section came true. Seems there is a divide within a divide of the fans.

You got guys saying its racist, you got guys claiming "white power/nazi salutes" = white pride and its all good, then you got guys saying you can't equate White Power with Pride and there's a more complex history. All I know is I've seen first hand how some of my non-white friends in the metal community have experienced these white pride moments and contrary to internet keyboard warriors , the solution is not as simple as "harderning up" or not getting butt hurt.

EDIT: Also Dimes ex-girlfriend accusing Rob of having another agenda, well in his video he clearly mentioned Phils exchange with him that night. He didn't hide .... in giving his message on youtube. End of the day, it wasn't Robb on stage being a tard.

<Looks at his Pantera guitar tab book bought back in highschool and reads section about how one of Phils "heroes" is Muhammad Ali..... confusion ensues.>


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## Zalbu (Jan 30, 2016)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Dimebag's Girlfriend Accuses Robb Flynn Of 'Masking His Real Problem' In Wake Of 'White Power' Uproar - Blabbermouth.net





> "You said to me, 'What would *Darrell* do?' He would have done exactly what was right&#8230; Speak to *Philip* man to man (like you described you witnessed at one time)&#8230; Not jump up in the press and hurt their music, our whole family and organization.



Her post is barely coherent but I somewhat agree with this. All this talk about what Dime would do is pretty pointless and self-serving. We don't know what Dime would do, because he's dead. Let the man rest in peace, for God's sake.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 30, 2016)

I can agree there. People need to stop bringing him into this. 

Although I still agree more with Robb. His rant didn't sound half-assed nor was he trying to hop on some bandwagon. He sounded like he meant every word of it, and it sounds like he got pretty emotional in some spots. Sounded more meaningful than Phil's "I'm sorry you're offended" apology.


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## Vrollin (Jan 30, 2016)

I hope everyone offended enough to make comment about it refrains from watching old English comedies, the amount of Nazi references and sketches would have some admitted to a mental asylum for untreatable high levels of offence....


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## asher (Jan 30, 2016)

Vrollin said:


> I hope everyone offended enough to make comment about it refrains from watching old English comedies, the amount of Nazi references and sketches would have some admitted to a mental asylum for untreatable high levels of offence....



Context, how does it work?


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 30, 2016)

Vrollin said:


> I hope everyone offended enough to make comment about it refrains from watching old English comedies, the amount of Nazi references and sketches would have some admitted to a mental asylum for untreatable high levels of offence....



Yeah, because someone doing a nazi salute and screaming white power is the equivalent of satirical comedy.


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## Mprinsje (Jan 30, 2016)

Vrollin said:


> I hope everyone offended enough to make comment about it refrains from watching old English comedies, the amount of Nazi references and sketches would have some admitted to a mental asylum for untreatable high levels of offence....



This wasn't exactly Monthy Python now, was it.


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## Duosphere (Jan 30, 2016)

Vrollin said:


> I hope everyone offended enough to make comment about it refrains from watching old English comedies, the amount of Nazi references and sketches would have some admitted to a mental asylum for untreatable high levels of offence....



 ..................  ..........................


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## big_aug (Jan 30, 2016)

Its racism. We get it. Racism is bad. Call him out. That doesn't change the fact he was one of the best metal front men ever. Without him there is no Pantera. His vocals ....ing kill.

We don't have to like him to enjoy the work that he put out. If you're really this worried about racism, go do something that actually matters instead of "calling out" a washed up, alcoholic, former heroin addict on a guitar forum.


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## asher (Jan 30, 2016)

big_aug said:


> That doesn't change the fact he was one of the best metal front men ever. Without him there is no Pantera. His vocals ....ing kill."



Nobody is actually saying otherwise


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 30, 2016)

So, the next time someone spouts out racist, white supremicist bull...., you want us to just brush it under a rug because you like Pantera?

No, hell no. If he has free speech to say whatever he wants, we have free speech to call him a dumbass for saying that crap.

And all this backlash obviously DID something, since he made an apology video.


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## Draceius (Jan 30, 2016)

I'm finding all of this is a mix of funny and scary, just because metal drama is hilarious considering this is underground music and this .... tears the community apart, though this leads to the scary part because the way it tore sort of outed a lot of racists in the community which I thought died off. I mean I'm black and I'm fortunate enough to have never experience racism at a gig and I pegged that down as our community itself becoming a more progressive one, but this incident brought so many people (at least of fans to light), go read the comments on any article, Facebook post or even twitter (it's annoying I have to cite social media but this is pretty much where all of this exists right now) and count how many people defending Phil and then further defending actual racism. It's ....ing terrifying.


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## Duosphere (Jan 30, 2016)

Draceius said:


> It's ....ing terrifying.



Yep, dumbness is terrifying and is the reason why the majority of humans live in misery and it's what's destroying nature freakin' fast..


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## asher (Jan 30, 2016)

Draceius said:


> go read the comments on any article, Facebook post or even twitter .



Dude, no.

Never get off the boat.







(obviously there are exceptions - like here or particularly good blogs - but this applies to most Facebook posts with an audience above 15 and every news site of any kind in existence)


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## vick1000 (Jan 30, 2016)

So what? Ever heard of the 1st amendment? Even without it, f*ck anyone that can't take hearing a few words. If you don't like them, stop b*tching and do something about it.

That's the problem with modern society, everyone's a pansy affraid to get their feelings hurt.

I bet half the jack asses that are b*thing about him saying "white power" would have ZERO f*cking issue with him yelling "HAIL SATAN!!!"

F*ck all you pansies....

WHITE POWER!!!!!

.....just to piss you off.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 30, 2016)

Can we rename the title of this thread to "Phil Anselmo and vick1000 show their true colors"? 

Given the xenophobic .... I've seen you said about the Chinese, I'm not surprised you'd stoop this low.

EDIT: Bye, Felicia.


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## Rawkmann (Jan 30, 2016)




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## Alex Kenivel (Jan 30, 2016)

Wow, dude..


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## exo (Jan 30, 2016)

Well, all I've got to say is that no, I'm not terribly offended by this. Then again, Pantera never meant much to me, and Phil Anselmo hasn't ever been a relevant figure in my life. I have better things to do than waste my time on taking offense at the words or a drunken idiot. Far better that I tech my children not to be said shrunken idiot than wate effort on outrage..........but that's just my $.02.


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## Jaxcharvel (Jan 30, 2016)

I wish people wouldn't be gigantic douche bag's and say things with the sole intent of pissing someone else off. The flip side is I wish people would stop being such pussies and not be so personally offended by every damn thing. I don't like or condone what Phil said, but I also don't give a ..... If someone says something directly related to me as an individual, I don't give a ..... If someone physically attacks me or someone I care about, then I give a ..... Racism exists, and it sucks, but it's never going away. Everybody making a gigantic deal about every racially fueled statement doesn't make the problem go away. If anything it makes it worse.


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## Rawkmann (Jan 31, 2016)

I'll say this, Anselmo fans are very loyal. I mean Halford is my favorite vocalist/front man but if he was out there spouting this type of BS I'd be done with the guy.


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## Vrollin (Jan 31, 2016)

asher said:


> Context, how does it work?



He said it was meant to be an inside joke, because of the nature of it and that no one is going to believe him its easier to simply fold and start apologizing and back peddling.... It was a dumbass move and no doubt the audience of the joke would have better been those only who were in on the joke. But ...., the way I've read some people carry on around social media you would have thought he was on stage noose in hand preaching to the masses to go commit acts of racial violence...


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## big_aug (Jan 31, 2016)

Have any of you ever used the word ......? Have any of you said something like hail Hitler or used that salute? Jokingly among your friends? Are you therefore racist?


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## Vrollin (Jan 31, 2016)

big_aug said:


> Have any of you ever used the word ......? Have any of you said something like hail Hitler or used that salute? Jokingly among your friends? Are you therefore racist?



Everyone these days is holier than thou, of course they "haven't..."


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## Hollowway (Jan 31, 2016)

I'm surprised how many people think it's odd to be offended by someone saying racist things. If you are not offended by this, and not motivated to call him out on it, and say what he did was wrong, it means you aren't not particularly offended by racism. Or, you are truly just not worried about what others feel. If he said something like, "women are inferior, and I support those who rape them!" Or "I love child pornography!" would you be equally I offended and give him a pass? We all have to drawn our personal line somewhere. I'm just surprised that him doing a Nazi salute and yelling a racist remark don't cross the line for everyone. For me, it doesn't matter if he's famous or not. If my mailman said it is be ....ing pissed and bummed out that people are still this bigoted.


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## AxeHappy (Jan 31, 2016)

Because words and symbols have clearly never lead to anything. What a ....ing stupid defense. 

Making a joke about white wine? Are you ....ing kidding me? Have you ever been drinking white wine and thought about randomly saying, "White Power." No? I didn't think so. 

Probably because you aren't a racist piece of ..... 

.... this guy.


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## exo (Jan 31, 2016)

Hollowway said:


> I'm surprised how many people think it's odd to be offended by someone saying racist things. If you are not offended by this, and not motivated to call him out on it, and say what he did was wrong, it means you aren't not particularly offended by racism. Or, you are truly just not worried about what others feel. If he said something like, "women are inferior, and I support those who rape them!" Or "I love child pornography!" would you be equally I offended and give him a pass? We all have to drawn our personal line somewhere. I'm just surprised that him doing a Nazi salute and yelling a racist remark don't cross the line for everyone. For me, it doesn't matter if he's famous or not. If my mailman said it is be ....ing pissed and bummed out that people are still this bigoted.



Allow me to clarify what _I_ was saying a bit.....I don't "get offended" at much of anything, I don't find the concept of "taking offense" to be a good usage of my personal energies. 

That does NOT mean I am "OK" with someone doing things like this, I just personally find there are better ways to react, if that makes sense. The ONLY care I have about Phil Anselmo is to teach my kids "don't be that guy"......my reaction is a shrug, and "asshole is as asshole does.......kids, don't be an asshole...."

Sorry if I'm still not communicating my feelings on things well.......but I am NOT ok with rings like this if I'm coming off that way....


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## Jaxcharvel (Jan 31, 2016)

Hollowway said:


> I'm surprised how many people think it's odd to be offended by someone saying racist things. If you are not offended by this, and not motivated to call him out on it, and say what he did was wrong, it means you aren't not particularly offended by racism. Or, you are truly just not worried about what others feel. If he said something like, "women are inferior, and I support those who rape them!" Or "I love child pornography!" would you be equally I offended and give him a pass? We all have to drawn our personal line somewhere. I'm just surprised that him doing a Nazi salute and yelling a racist remark don't cross the line for everyone. For me, it doesn't matter if he's famous or not. If my mailman said it is be ....ing pissed and bummed out that people are still this bigoted.



Well, those are pretty extreme examples but I get what you're saying. It totally bums me out that people are racist. The problem is that no matter how up in arms everyone gets about this kinda stuff, it's never gonna end. Ever. Period. 
Okay, a washed up metal singer from Louisiana spouts off a racial remark. He didn't partake in mass genocide. He didn't physically harm one single individual. He said some words that have no tangible effect on anyone. Everyone freaks the .... out so said washed up metal singer backpedals trying to save his "reputation" and makes an apology. Is anyone really thick enough to think that his beliefs are now different?
Everyone has their feelings hurt over something or another nowdays, and this is no different. I wish no one would ever be a dick again, but that won't happen. So in lieu of no one being a dick I wish that everyone would stop being pussies.


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## Aymara (Jan 31, 2016)

AxeHappy said:


> .... this guy.



... was able to become a dictator, because there were similar discussions in Germany like we have here now:

"No, he can't be that bad" ... "he will give us jobs" ... etc.

And this still goes on amongst Neo-Nazis argueing, that Hitler also did many positive things ... he gave people jobs, he built highways, etc. ... bullsh1t ... he gave people jobs to build weapons and he built highways for tanks, not for cars!

There is no excuse ... facism and racism needs to be fought at it's roots! If Germany would have done that, Hitler would have had no chance!

So again, it's inacceptable that a VIP like Anselmo behaves like this, no matter if drunken or not. And it's a shame, that we need to discuss this!


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## Jaxcharvel (Jan 31, 2016)

Aymara said:


> ... was able to become a dictator, because there were similar discussions in Germany like we have here now:
> 
> "No, he can't be that bad" ... "he will give us jobs" ... etc.
> 
> ...


No, it doesn't need to be fought at it's roots. He's not a political or military leader, he's a has-been musician. You can't fight people's beliefs. They aren't gonna change for you, me, or anyone else. If that were the case then you wouldn't have religion fueled wars every single day. People are gonna believe what they want to believe. It's actions that should be fought against, not words.


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## Aymara (Jan 31, 2016)

Jaxcharvel said:


> He's not a political or military leader, ...



He somehow is a leader of Metal fans and still has a huge influence ... there are enough idiots out there, that follow his behaviour.



> It's actions that should be fought against, not words.



Actions follow words, don't forget that. It were mainly words, that made Hitler a dictator!


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## Jaxcharvel (Jan 31, 2016)

Okay, I'm not trying to be a dildo here, but what do you suggest we do? I mean, we could gather all the racist people up and put them somewhere else, or kill them or something, but that seems a bit hypocritical. We could try to educate them, but I guarantee that isn't gonna work. We could bitch about it on social media, because 2015 has proved that it works like a champ. Or we could just stfu about it and move on.


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## Aymara (Jan 31, 2016)

Jaxcharvel said:


> but what do you suggest we do?



I expect the community to clearly say NO instead of searching excuses for this misbehaviour.


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## Jaxcharvel (Jan 31, 2016)

Fair enough. Personally, I haven't given a .... about anything he's done since Trendkill.


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## The Mirror (Jan 31, 2016)

I take pretty much everything Anselmo says and does nowadays with the great words of a friend of mine:

"Blalalalala, don't care."


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## Esp Griffyn (Jan 31, 2016)

big_aug said:


> Have any of you ever used the word ......? Have any of you said something like hail Hitler or used that salute? Jokingly among your friends? Are you therefore racist?




Can you tell the difference between joking among friends and standing on a stage with a camera pointed at you?


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## Aymara (Jan 31, 2016)

The Mirror said:


> "Blalalalala, don't care."



And that my German neighbour is exactly the wrong approach ... remember? ... it was one of the reasons Hitler was able to become a dictator, because many people just didn't care.

And it is one of the many reasons, that this world nowadays has so huge problems ... many people just don't care.

But who cares, we will eliminate the human race anyways ourselves ... don't care, you can't prevent it


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## The Mirror (Jan 31, 2016)

Aymara said:


> remember? ... it was one of the reasons Hitler was able to become a dictator, because many people just didn't care.



Did you just - even tough indirectly - compare Anselmo with Hitler? That's awesome. 

Nah. There is a difference between people who are a real threat and those who just talk ..... 

I just can't take people like Anselmo or Megadave or whomever serious, so I just don't care.


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## Jaxcharvel (Jan 31, 2016)

The Mirror said:


> Did you just - even tough indirectly - compare Anselmo with Hitler? That's awesome.
> 
> Nah. There is a difference between people who are a real threat and those who just talk .....
> 
> I just can't take people like Anselmo or Megadave or whomever serious, so I just don't care.



/\ What he said. If this was something that Obama (or any other political/military leader) said, then yeah, it's a pretty big problem. But with a has-been metal singer who's pretty well known for saying stupid .... says it, then no, it's not really a big deal. I'm pretty sure people just want an excuse to be offended these days.


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## JohnIce (Jan 31, 2016)

The Mirror said:


> Did you just - even tough indirectly - compare Anselmo with Hitler? That's awesome.
> 
> Nah. There is a difference between people who are a real threat and those who just talk .....
> 
> I just can't take people like Anselmo or Megadave or whomever serious, so I just don't care.



You don't need to compare Anselmo with Hitler, literally. It's the ideas that matter. If enough people hear racist arguments and not enough counter-racist arguments, someone, anyone, can then face that huge group of people and tell them what they want to hear and suddenly be a world leader. Donald Trump, Front National, Golden Dawn, these don't appear in a vaccuum. People sieg heiling at a metal show is obviously a direct part of the problem, it has squat to do with whether Phil wants to run for office or not.


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## Aymara (Jan 31, 2016)

JohnIce said:


> It's the ideas that matter.



Exactly ... and the fact, that Anselmo still is a VIP. And a musician can have a much greater influence on people, especially younger people, than any politician. Anselmo might be pretty much brainless nowadays and his golden age might be over, but he still has a pretty large fanbase.

So again ... I expect the community to care and to clearly say NO. Unbelievable, that this needs to be discussed.


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## Jaxcharvel (Jan 31, 2016)

To say "no, I don't agree with this" is fine but to "fight it" makes no sense. You can either fight it in the literal sense, in which case you're worse than the original offending party, or you can verbally fight it, which will result in nothing except someone eventually getting pissed off enough to take action. And that's never a good thing.


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## JohnIce (Jan 31, 2016)

Jaxcharvel said:


> ...or you can verbally fight it, which will result in nothing except someone eventually getting pissed off enough to take action. And that's never a good thing.



That's where I think a lot of people (you and me) fundamentally disagree. We're all products of our environment. We're all capable of taking a new argument to heart when they're reasonable enough, or repeated enough. That's why talking matters. And why persistent talking, year in and year out, ultimately pays off. I guarantee you that no-one in this thread who's arguing against Phil and his actions, were born with those opinions. No, we all arrived there by talking to people, over a long period of time, about it.

I think Germany's history is very telling of how an entire people can totally turn around after WWII and say "what the hell were we thinking, let's make sure that never happens again!" and now be the european country that takes in the most refugees. Ideas are not set in stone, people can change and do so very often. Sometimes from one election to the other, even.


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## Jaxcharvel (Jan 31, 2016)

I'm not in any way arguing FOR Phil. I think he's a complete douchebag. But I don't think that electronic picketing is going to do anything to raise awareness in bigots. If anything, I think it perpetuates the problem. People who are deep seeded in their beliefs aren't going to change their core values because x amount of people are offended by them, and often times they will try harder and in more radical ways to offend said group. I'm not trying to be negative, but I've been around for a bit and I'm pragmatic as a result. Even a little cynical, but I've seen, first hand, some of the atrocities the human race can accomplish, and talking isn't gonna fix that.


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## JohnIce (Jan 31, 2016)

Jaxcharvel said:


> I'm not in any way arguing FOR Phil. I think he's a complete douchebag. But I don't think that electronic picketing is going to do anything to raise awareness in bigots. If anything, I think it perpetuates the problem. People who are deep seeded in their beliefs aren't going to change their core values because x amount of people are offended by them, and often times they will try harder and in more radical ways to offend said group. I'm not trying to be negative, but I've been around for a bit and I'm pragmatic as a result. Even a little cynical, but I've seen, first hand, some of the atrocities the human race can accomplish, and talking isn't gonna fix that.



You're reading mostly stuff into it that I didn't say though. I wasn't saying you were defending Phil, nor am I talking about people with deep seeded beliefs. I think it's quite common sense that not every german was a deep seeded racist, that's my point. They were kind of indifferent and cool with Nazism for a while, Hitler was democratically elected, but over time they realized it was the worst thing they could've done and now their public opinion is more anti-nazi and anti-fascist than most other countries. Does that mean there are no longer any Nazis in Germany? Of course there are. But is Germany still a Nazi country? No. Do you see the difference I'm getting at?

Just looking at the leaders of the various american states clearly shows how much public opinion can vary from area to area. That's because people talk amongst each other. People share ideas and the most common arguments tend to win in that region. That's why talking matters.

As far as fixing things, I think fixing humanity is like fixing a car. It's always gonna break, it's never gonna be "fixed" for all time, but you can do a lot to minimize the damage and the frequency of the damage.


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## Jaxcharvel (Jan 31, 2016)

And the ones with a more fragile belief system will probably sway. They aren't the problem. The problem is with the ones who are too stubborn and full of hate to change. Those are the ones who will cause problems. Most of Germany weren't Nazis. But they were forced by the Nazis to adhere to their beliefs. Just like the argument of the vast majority of Muslims vs radical muslims. Trying to "talk sense" into them isn't going to change them and could very likely cause a bigger problem. Live and let live man. Unless someone is doing something to harm you and yours let them spew their stupid bull..... Phil Anselmo isn't gonna kick off a race war no matter how hard he tries. I don't think he is trying, I just think he's dumb.


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## JohnIce (Jan 31, 2016)

Jaxcharvel said:


> And the ones with a more fragile belief system will probably sway. They aren't the problem.



I totally disagree. In a democratic society, swaying is the key to any large-scale atrocity, because of voting. Get enough people to casually sway and vote for the wrong person and the next 4 years can change everything for the worse.


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## CaptainD00M (Jan 31, 2016)

I hate to point this out, as its not a defence for Phil's views (which he seems to regularly flip flop on) but lets be real her. Phil Anselmo is a human being, yes he's a fairly famous one depending on which circles you travel in, but he's still a human being.

Human beings unfortunately have the rather mystical ability to say and do stupid ...., even the ones with bucket loads of letters behind their names (Dawkins is an AMAZING example of this). Phil being a human being has exercised this ability (again) and made an ass of himself.

Its life unfortunately, we only get super up in arms about it because with someone with some notoriety, the news travels a .... ton faster than if it was some asshole who lives down the road who happens to hate a particular flavour of people.

Phil ideally should stick to what he's good at which is to make music with Down (who I personally think are better than Pantera but thats me XD ) and be asked or go on record about stuff that is outside of his field of expertise. Its like when one guitarist was asked in an interview who his pick for the last election was and he replied:

'What the hell do you wanna know about that for, I'm a guitarist, ask me some .... about guitars. I'm not a political science major.'

But hey its done now, am I going to cringe when I think about Phil's views: Yes
Am I going to stop listening to Down: NO

Why: well 1) he's only 25% of the band and 2) there is to my ears nothing that offends my sensibilities in the music 3) Burzum taught me I don't have to love the guy to enjoy the music (even though I still feel a little dirty listening to his music XD) the bonus with him is you can't understand what he's saying.

Anyway thats my 

Its sad, but its life.


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## Jaxcharvel (Jan 31, 2016)

JohnIce said:


> I totally disagree. In a democratic society, swaying is the key to any large-scale atrocity, because of voting. Get enough people to casually sway and vote for the wrong person and the next 4 years can change everything for the worse.



Swaying someone on their political views and swaying them on their personal beliefs is quite a bit different, but that isn't at all the point here. You and I both went way down the rabbit hole on this topic. My point is that some dude who in the grand scheme of things is nobody makes a stupid statement. It's not that big a deal. I can't even believe anyone is surprised. It's not going to systematically start WW3. All we're accomplishing here is making him more (in)famous. Even bad publicity is good publicity.


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## Nag (Jan 31, 2016)

If you're a fan, you have to make a choice.

I listen to music made by convicted murderers and arsonists. A racist singer is a joke in comparison. I still listen to what I like, because that music makes me feel good. I don't support these artists though... I listen to their music on youtube instead of buying the CDs, I don't go to their concerts, I don't buy their merch.

It's a choice to make. Plenty of artists have dirty hands, metal or not. From rappers who sold drugs to school kids so they could afford their next meal, to cocaine addict rockstars who beat up their wives... I don't know. If you're a Pantera or Down or I don't know how many projects Phil Anselmo is/has been in, tough choice. Support him although he's awful because you like his music, or give up on music that makes you feel good because morals ?


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## JohnIce (Jan 31, 2016)

Jaxcharvel said:


> Swaying someone on their political views and swaying them on their personal beliefs is quite a bit different, but that isn't at all the point here. You and I both went way down the rabbit hole on this topic. My point is that some dude who in the grand scheme of things is nobody makes a stupid statement. It's not that big a deal. I can't even believe anyone is surprised. It's not going to systematically start WW3. All we're accomplishing here is making him more (in)famous. Even bad publicity is good publicity.



Rabbit hole, yes. But as far as political views vs. personal beliefs, I think they're absolutely connected. Someone who sways from left to right is just as likely to sway from "who cares, racism/sexism/homophobia isn't as bad as it used to, it's not an issue anymore" to "oh ...., I didn't realize it was still this bad, I'll be more respectful from now on". It's about basic human quest for knowledge, more than it is about morals or values.


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## CaptainD00M (Jan 31, 2016)

Nagash said:


> I listen to music made by convicted murderers and arsonists. A racist singer is a joke in comparison.



Um if you're referring to the convicted arsonists and murderers that that I think you are, they were racist too. You know just to balance things


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## themightyjaymoe (Jan 31, 2016)

CaptainDoom, is it me or is it fitting that your avatar happens to be a Nazi? I'm glad that my grandfather went to Europe to kill those assholes so you would have the freedom to do whatever it is you do with Nazi imagery. Keep it classy.


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## asher (Jan 31, 2016)

themightyjaymoe said:


> CaptainDoom, is it me or is it fitting that your avatar happens to be a Nazi? I'm glad that my grandfather went to Europe to kill those assholes so you would have the freedom to do whatever it is you do with Nazi imagery. Keep it classy.



A five second reverse image search gets me this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Ruprecht_Kroenen

He's a fictional character from Hellboy.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 31, 2016)

The idea that those offended by what Phil said are "pussies" balled up in the corner sucking thier thumbs and crying because "the bad man said mean things" is freaking hilarious. 

You keep being those tough, edgy and apathetic stalwarts, guys. That's totally not a defense mechanism.


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## themightyjaymoe (Jan 31, 2016)

Apologies to captain doom. Him being fake makes me feel much better. However, the Nazis were real and the .... they did was even more real. Fake or not the character is wearing the Nazi version of the swastika. Also if someone had a drawing of an isis fighter or a stereotypical middle eastern terrorist as an avatar, gets called on it and responds 'it's fake' is a pretty weak argument. I'm all for freedom of expression but as Rob Flynn and many others have pointed out you have to take the criticism of that expression. I get what your saying but swastikas, burning crosses, celtic runes and the like carry a weight that most people will never understand. Fake characters or not is kind of irrelevant.


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## asher (Jan 31, 2016)

themightyjaymoe said:


> Apologies to captain doom. Him being fake makes me feel much better. However, the Nazis were real and the .... they did was even more real. Fake or not the character is wearing the Nazi version of the swastika. Also if someone had a drawing of an isis fighter or a stereotypical middle eastern terrorist as an avatar, gets called on it and responds 'it's fake' is a pretty weak argument. I'm all for freedom of expression but as Rob Flynn and many others have pointed out you have to take the criticism of that expression. I get what your saying but swastikas, burning crosses, celtic runes and the like carry a weight that most people will never understand. Fake characters or not is kind of irrelevant.



I'm not honestly sure it *should* disprove your statement, but I felt it was important to clarify all the same


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## Simic (Jan 31, 2016)

I feel like I have to get this off my mind - to all the people saying we should man up and not get offended so easily;

I also feel people get offended way to quickly if you make an offensive joke nowadays. But the thing is Phil wasn't joking - if you watch the video you see (at least imo) that he ment what he said and he said it with passion. Thats why I also find this very offensive and unacceptable. There is a difference between a joking (which I agree should not be taken seriously) and what Phil did there... 
I love Pantera and I honestly didn't know what an idiot Phil was until today, too bad.


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## Rawkmann (Jan 31, 2016)

Guys this is one of those things it's OK to be appalled by, it doesn't make You a '.....'.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 31, 2016)

MaxOfMetal said:


> The idea that those offended by what Phil said are "pussies" balled up in the corner sucking thier thumbs and crying because "the bad man said mean things" is freaking hilarious.
> 
> You keep being those tough, edgy and apathetic stalwarts, guys. That's totally not a defense mechanism.





Rawkmann said:


> Guys this is one of those things it's OK to be appalled by, it doesn't make You a '.....'.



Seriously. Christ alive. 

It's not being an SJW or being easily offended. It's called being a decent human being. And Phil is still a huge douche no matter how good his music was in the past.


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## CaptainD00M (Jan 31, 2016)

themightyjaymoe said:


> Also if someone had a drawing of an isis fighter or a stereotypical middle eastern terrorist as an avatar, gets called on it and responds 'it's fake' is a pretty weak argument. .



I would appreciate it if you don't misattribute Asher's point of clarification (thanks man) as my argument or justification for the avatar. I understand that you have an issue with my avatar, you could have just sent me a message and I would have politely discussed the matter with you in private.

Its ironic that after 2 years of having that as my avatar it NOW becomes an issue because I commented negatively about Phil Anselmos behaviour. I believe that my statement was '&#8230;made an ass out of himself.' 

I believe the point Asher was possible hinting (I hope I'm not misattributing here) at is the fact that I chose the avatar for aesthetic value, not ideological. He would be correct, as I felt it matched my screen name and I grew up reading Hellboy comics. 

Finally I appreciate the sacrifice of your family to fight the nazi's, I too lost two great uncles to a concentration camp for assisting Jewish families and a Great Aunt for helping an Allied soldier escape the Netherlands, and thats just my mothers family  But what exactly does this have to do with Phil Anselmo being an ass?


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## Aymara (Jan 31, 2016)

CaptainD00M said:


> If you happen to have an alternative you are welcome to make a suggestion and I will consider it.



Removing the SS symbol from the hat and the Nazi flag in the background should be sufficient, I think.


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## Duosphere (Jan 31, 2016)

I don't get offended by somebody using Hitler as a "joke" or being racist.
I feel really sad, ashamed and disgusted that some people have no idea that Hitler was one of the worst things our species had.If you use it as a joke you clearly have no idea what people suffered and even if you do, you have no respect for other people feelings.I'm a joker among my friends so I think some people have to understand that a joke is just a joke, it's just somebody trying to be funny to make people happy but sometimes even a joker makes bad jokes HOWEVER there are some stuff nobody should try to make fun of it, The Holocaust for sure is one of them, there's absolutely nothing funny about it, millions got tortured and killed in some of the most terrible ways ever, my family has absolutely nothing to do with it still in my heart that was unacceptable.If you wanna make fun of Hitler showing what a disgrace he was...........perfect.Any other way of joking is wrong, what about if your family and friends got tortured and killed, I guess it won't sound like a joke?
And somebody saying we should fight actions not words is dumb beyond belief cause all actions started with words, words are as powerful as any gun, a simple insult can make somebody put a gun in your head so words can kill and The Holocaust for sure started with words.
Damn, the bottom line.....we should be a blind and mute species, this way we won't do those terrible things we do


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## Chokey Chicken (Jan 31, 2016)

Having Kroenen as an avatar hardly shows support for the Nazis.


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## CaptainD00M (Jan 31, 2016)

Chokey Chicken said:


> Having Kroenen as an avatar hardly shows support for the Nazis.



Thanks man. I figured that also, doubly so if people actually read my statement that oscillated between cynicism and realism where I clearly don't support any kind of racism. But hey whatever.

I've modified my avatar anyway, because Aymara asked nicely for me to edit the original and I can't be bothered trying to find the file. Hope no one takes offence at me supporting Cobra Command


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 31, 2016)

Chokey Chicken said:


> Having Kroenen as an avatar hardly shows support for the Nazis.



Agreed. My brother's a huge fan of the Red Skull, but the dude isn't a goddamn skinhead. 

Now, if D00M had an avatar of Hermann Goring or Josef Mengele, then yeah, I'd be all for a .


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## Aymara (Jan 31, 2016)

CaptainD00M said:


> I've modified my avatar anyway, ...



... which I think has the advantage, that the new one can't be misinterpreted


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## Fathand (Jan 31, 2016)

I'd have more respect for Phil if he just came out and admitted that 'white power' is his thing - all this backtracking and 'it was a joke, ha ha' crap just makes me think that at best he's a drunk idiot with no real sense of humor and situational awareness + a coward (scared from the backlash) or a closet racist and a liar at worst.

Own up to your ...t so we know where you stand, and can forget about your existence if this KKK stuff is your thing. Freedom of speech guarantees the right to opinions and their verbal expression, but (to the listener) also the right to ignore them if they're ......it.


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## Nag (Jan 31, 2016)

MaxOfMetal said:


> The idea that those offended by what Phil said are "pussies" balled up in the corner sucking thier thumbs and crying because "the bad man said mean things" is freaking hilarious.
> 
> You keep being those tough, edgy and apathetic stalwarts, guys. That's totally not a defense mechanism.




Being easily offended is SO metal though


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## JohnIce (Jan 31, 2016)

Nagash said:


> Being easily offended is SO metal though



I think the point swooshed right over your head then. Being offended is not the same as being easily offended. I'm offended when people don't have the mental capacity to think for one second about how their actions have a directly bad impact on other damn people, for no good reason other than that they're too lazy to form a damn thought or listen to a damn argument from someone else for a change.

Which is the foundation of 80% of metal lyrics, so again: swoosh.


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## Smoked Porter (Jan 31, 2016)

I remember back in the Limewire and Bearshare days, there was some MP3 floating around of one of his racist rants and I just deliberately avoided it, hoping that whatever he said, he eventually changed/grew out of it. I'm not gonna stop listening to Down and Pantera, but it does really bum me out that apparently this is still the kind of guy Anselmo is.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 31, 2016)

If there's something that scares me, it's that people are alright with Phil acting like a racist and white supremacist _on this very forum_, and are actively trying to defend the dude and calling us out for being easily offended. How ....ty of a person do you have to be to be fine with that?


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## Aymara (Jan 31, 2016)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> How ....ty of a person do you have to be to be fine with that?



Right ... I was tempted to say, that some people seem to be too young, but whoever is able to play guitar, should be old enough to understand, that racism and facism is pretty much inacceptable and false ideology.

So I fear the brutal truth is, that Anselmo is not the only one lacking the brain to understand that.

I'm pretty sure, that black people, jews and whatever other "non-arian" folks are members here in this international forum and I hope this doesn't change because of a few people, who are not able to understand that they might offend others.

This is not funny, guys ... use your brain, if you have a bit of it left.


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## Duosphere (Jan 31, 2016)

Aymara said:


> Right ... I was tempted to say, that some people seem to be too young, but whoever is able to play guitar, should be old enough to understand, that racism and facism is pretty much inacceptable and false ideology.
> 
> So I fear the brutal truth is, that Anselmo is not the only one lacking the brain to understand that.
> 
> ...



I agree to everything you said but dumbness has nothing to do with age,young/old people can be dumb the same way, being dumb is a choice, a choice of not studying, not thinking, not understanding and the worst of all choices, not caring about what others feel at all.We don't choose our skin color so be careful, next life(if there's next life) you could born with a color some people are trying to exterminate


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## big_aug (Jan 31, 2016)

Calling people ....ty and ....ed up because they look at it different is the problem.

I think everyone forgets that Phil is just a person. He's a former heroin addict. He's probably an alcoholic. He's an asshole. He's a terribly flawed human being. Is he really a racist? Maybe he is or maybe he is not. I doubt he is truly a racist because he isn't out there promoting racism. Saying racist .... is not the same as actively promoting racism and owning it. I doubt he wants to truly do harm to anyone. He's a person. If you put the microscope on anyone's life they'd appear different than they really are. 

But maybe he really is a racist. Either way I have more important .... to worry about. I don't give a damn what Phil Anselmo says or does just like I don't care what anyone on these boards says or does.


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## Duosphere (Jan 31, 2016)

big_aug said:


> just like I don't care what anyone on these boards says or does.



So why are you here?
You just stated you're crazy.
Why posting on a place you don't give a damn about people there.
If you're spending your time replying, you care.
I would never go to a place which I don't care whatever people say or do there.
That's craziness


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 31, 2016)

big_aug said:


> Saying racist .... is not the same as actively promoting racism and owning it.



So hate is only bad if you're really hardcore about it? 



> But maybe he really is a racist. Either way I have more important .... to worry about. I don't give a damn what Phil Anselmo says or does just like I don't care what anyone on these boards says or does.



Being proud of being apathetic is just as bad as being proud of ignorance. 

But whatever, you look so cool for not caring.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 31, 2016)

big_aug said:


> Calling people ....ty and ....ed up because they look at it different is the problem.



I'd say letting this .... slide and promoting white supremecy, while criticizing others who do give a damn, is a worse problem. But sure, do whatever. I can't stop you.


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## jwade (Jan 31, 2016)

Relevant:



Skip to 1:55 to get right to it.


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## big_aug (Jan 31, 2016)

MaxOfMetal said:


> So hate is only bad if you're really hardcore about it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have more important things to worry about. Like surviving. Like trying to renter society and the workforce with a disability. Like facing the prospect of being alone my entire life. I guess after really facing death I have a different outlook. I care about myself and the people who were there for me. Beyond that I don't care at all. I suppose people who experience a life changing event probably go one of two ways. They either become exceptionally motivated to do great things or they focus on themselves. Im the latter. Perhaps I'd have cared more in my previous life, but that person died.


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## JohnIce (Jan 31, 2016)

MaxOfMetal said:


> But whatever, you look so cool for not caring.



Then again, dropping in to state your own opinion and then running away before the counter-arguments come, means you have skin like a rhino.


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## Aymara (Jan 31, 2016)

Duosphere said:


> ... dumbness has nothing to do with age ...



Yes, sure, but teenagers sometimes tend to behave immature ... to use friendly words


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 31, 2016)

big_aug said:


> I have more important things to worry about. Like surviving. Like trying to renter society and the workforce with a disability. Like facing the prospect of being alone my entire life. I guess after really facing death I have a different outlook. I care about myself and the people who were there for me. Beyond that I don't care at all. I suppose people who experience a life changing event probably go one of two ways. They either become exceptionally motivated to do great things or they focus on themselves. Im the latter. Perhaps I'd have cared more in my previous life, but that person died.



What part about excusing racism serves yourself then? 

You're just making excuses. If you legitimately didn't care you wouldn't even be here half defending the position of apathy. You obviously care enough to discuss this.

No one is saying you, or anyone really, needs to helm some massive crusade against racism, we're just saying that this stuff shouldn't be tolerated. That's it. You don't have to do anything other than acknowledge that racism sucks and people who are racist are wrong. Is that so hard? 

On an unrelated note, I was involved in a pretty severe accident at work that'll probably be with me for a long time, in more ways than one, and would be more than happy to talk if that's something you need. While I won't pretend to know your situation, understand that I'm willing to try if you need someone to talk to. I've done a lot of thinking about what happened and have been actively talking to others and it really does help.


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## Five Ten (Jan 31, 2016)

big_aug said:


> Saying racist .... is not the same as actively promoting racism and owning it.



I'm Asian, and I can't begin to tell you how wrong this is. So many people say very racist things, light heartedly, and wonder why I distance myself from the outside world. 



> I doubt he wants to truly do harm to anyone.



It does not matter. A man with influence spitting hate breeds hate. People look up to him and in turn emulate him. People who emulate him will possibly emulate the racism. Racism is a learned thing, so it's good to point out whenever somebody, especially of influence, crosses a line. 



> I have more important things to worry about. Like surviving. Like trying to renter society and the workforce with a disability. Like facing the prospect of being alone my entire life. I guess after really facing death I have a different outlook. I care about myself and the people who were there for me. Beyond that I don't care at all. I suppose people who experience a life changing event probably go one of two ways. They either become exceptionally motivated to do great things or they focus on themselves. Im the latter. Perhaps I'd have cared more in my previous life, but that person died.



It just makes you a cold person to ignore any problems that don't effect you personally. It is one thing to not give it much thought because you have a lot on your own plate, and it's another to personally condone it because "who cares." You can acknowledge something is wrong without exerting yourself. Everyone does. We all know of homelessness, cancer, racism, gender equality, etc, etc. Just because you focus on one over the other doesn't make someone cruel towards people with other issues. Turning a blind eye to it and saying "whatever" is completely different. It is not a morally good stance to have.


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## big_aug (Jan 31, 2016)

MaxOfMetal said:


> What part about excusing racism serves yourself then?
> 
> You're just making excuses. If you legitimately didn't care you wouldn't even be here half defending the position of apathy. You obviously care enough to discuss this.
> 
> ...



Racism is bad. Said and acknowledged that in my first post. Phil has said and done racist things. I won't forever condemn him for it. That doesn't make me a ....ty or ....ed up person as others have stated.


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## big_aug (Jan 31, 2016)

Five Ten said:


> I'm Asian, and I can't begin to tell you how wrong this is. So many people say very racist things, light heartedly, and wonder why I distance myself from the outside world.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I never condoned anything.


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## MikeH (Jan 31, 2016)

Are people really shocked at this? Phil has been doing his white pride gig since the 80s. He's a backwoods country boy racist and always has been. He's a badass musician (yes, I enjoy all of his projects), but he's also an idiot. It's a shame, because I really like a lot of other aspects of his personality, and his music, but this is just not something anyone can agree with.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 31, 2016)

It's no surprise, but it's a good thing finally are taking a stand against it.

I will admit I thought he was passed this ...., though. Especially since he condemned the confederate flag last year.


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## JohnIce (Jan 31, 2016)

Five Ten said:


> I'm Asian, and I can't begin to tell you how wrong this is. So many people say very racist things, light heartedly, and wonder why I distance myself from the outside world.
> 
> It does not matter. A man with influence spitting hate breeds hate. People look up to him and in turn emulate him. People who emulate him will possibly emulate the racism. Racism is a learned thing, so it's good to point out whenever somebody, especially of influence, crosses a line.
> 
> It just makes you a cold person to ignore any problems that don't effect you personally. It is one thing to not give it much thought because you have a lot on your own plate, and it's another to personally condone it because "who cares." You can acknowledge something is wrong without exerting yourself. Everyone does. We all know of homelessness, cancer, racism, gender equality, etc, etc. Just because you focus on one over the other doesn't make someone cruel towards people with other issues. Turning a blind eye to it and saying "whatever" is completely different. It is not a morally good stance to have.





big_aug said:


> I never condoned anything.



Holy gloss over Batman. So you don't condone racism but a direct reply about it from an asian is TL;DR.


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## Rawkmann (Jan 31, 2016)

MikeH said:


> Are people really shocked at this?



Racism and intolerance always shocks me because my mind can't conceive how people still think like that. Its kind of like when an older person says something racist and people go "Oh its just because they are from a different time". If enough people show outrage, maybe it might serve as a wake up call to ol Phil that the time for intolerance is long gone. I think we'd be doing a disservice NOT to criticize him.


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## Zalbu (Jan 31, 2016)

I have to say that I was unaware of Phil having a history of racism since I'm not huge into Pantera, all I've known about them is the Dimebag confederate flag guitars and at least that one can be sorta justified with the "heritage" excuse. I can't seem to find any concrete proof that shows if Dimebag was or wasn't a racist.


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## coreysMonster (Jan 31, 2016)

I'm not a fan or supporter of "call out culture" because I think it does more harm than good when people get swept up in the whole "we have to call out this person for X on social media and call their employer and ruin their life!" nonsense.

That being said, Phil Anselmo being a bigoted idiot isn't news to anybody and it's fairly safe to say that this was either him begging for attention in the stupidest, most harmful way, or he needs to sit down and have a long, hard reflection on his life, his opinions, and the fact that he apparently hasn't read a book since ever.
He also needs to realise that when he pulls crap like this, he's not only dirtying _his_ name, but the names of _*all *the people that associate with him_, and _*all *the musical projects he's been involved in_.

Also, since when does getting mad at someone for shouting "WHITE POWER" have to do with people being overly sensitive? You don't have to be a fan of political correctness to know _not to shout ....ing hate group slogans from a ....ing stage_.


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## heathenhotel (Jan 31, 2016)

Scum bag bands jumping all over the bandwagon opportunities to chime in and snag some free media time. Robb Flynn included. Not saying they are wrong for standing against racism but it's not legitimate from the heart when it's to get your band some spotlight. I hope Phil gets some help with his alcoholism though, maybe this situation will push him into trying some rehab again.


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## Duosphere (Jan 31, 2016)

heathenhotel said:


> Scum bag bands jumping all over the bandwagon opportunities to chime in and snag some free media time. Robb Flynn included. Not saying they are wrong for standing against racism but it's not legitimate from the heart when it's to get your band some spotlight. I hope Phil gets some help with his alcoholism though, maybe this situation will push him into trying some rehab again.





So because he has a band, he can never express himself because every word he says is about putting his band in the spotlight?
Sorry but that's nonsense.
So if you're a doctor and complain about other doctors, you just want the spotlight?
You're putting everybody in the same bag, those who complain because they want the spotlight and those who complain because they are against whatever happened.
I've been playing in cover bands for 20 years so if I say some cover bands are pro racism, I'd just want my band in the spotlight?
No.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 31, 2016)

heathenhotel said:


> Scum bag bands jumping all over the bandwagon opportunities to chime in and snag some free media time. Robb Flynn included. Not saying they are wrong for standing against racism but it's not legitimate from the heart when it's to get your band some spotlight.



You're right. Rob Flynn should have cut back on all the Machine Head plugs in his video, and telling people to buy his albums...

Oh wait, he didn't do any of that? And he didn't mention Machine Head ONCE (besides the 1997 tour story.)

Are you kidding me dude? Just because a well known metal act is condemning someone that DESERVES to be called out is him trying to get free publicity?

Grow the hell up.


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## AxeHappy (Jan 31, 2016)

heathenhotel said:


> Scum bag bands




Yeah...it's the people saying that racism is not okay that are the scum bags. 




This is easily the saddest thread that has ever happened on Sevenstring.


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## Zalbu (Jan 31, 2016)

heathenhotel said:


> Scum bag bands jumping all over the bandwagon opportunities to chime in and snag some free media time. Robb Flynn included. Not saying they are wrong for standing against racism but it's not legitimate from the heart when it's to get your band some spotlight.









And also, when is he supposed to speak out against racism? Before Phil says racist ....? Pretty sure Robb isn't a mindreader.


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## Mangle (Jan 31, 2016)

Check it, check it.... that line in the live version of Domination from the big Moscow show, where Phil ad-libs, "I got a big ol' dick".... well now he can just change it to, "I am a big, old dick!"


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## Jaxcharvel (Jan 31, 2016)

I think a lot of people have misconstrued what I said. I'm not saying that racism is okay. I think it sucks. I think judging people period on anything other than the content of their character sucks. But I think it's a waste of energy to put any real thought into this. A man with a history of being a known racist spouts out a racial remark and everyone freaks the .... out like they're surprised. Yeah, it sucks and he's a total douchebag for it, but that's it. It really doesn't deserve any more attention than that.


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## Hollowway (Jan 31, 2016)

I see some people are saying that he may be a racist, but it doesn't do us any good to say he shouldn't say that. And some people are saying that it doesn't bother them what someone else does if it doesn't directly involve them. So for me, I always remember that Edmund Burke quote, "The only thing needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." I did away with wondering if it was "any of my business" and instead now focus on whether it is good or bad. If it's bad, then I make it my business to do something. Even if it's just to say, "Hey man, that's not cool." 
And the reason is empathy. We all have different levels of empathy, and the more empathetic ones are going to put themselves in the shoes of those who would be offended by a racist statement, and are therefore offended themselves. There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, it's on the opposite end of the spectrum from psychopathy. If that makes me a wimp, then I guess I'm a wimp. I don't have the stomach to listen to racist remarks, and I find myself routinely scanning R movies to avoid those with rape scenes, cuz I just can't deal. It's just empathy.
Lastly, you cannot say something racist and not be a racist. That doesn't make any sense. To big_aug, who wondered if anyone jokes with their friends about white power and Nazi stuff, I'm thinking, "umm, no." That's like saying, "hey, just because I talk a lot about liking little boys doesn't make me a pedophile." And, "Come one, how many of you have not joked with your friends about wanting to look at naked pictures of kids." Or, if that seems to straw-man harsh, "Hey, just because I always talk about how awesome the Lakers are doesn't make me a fan. How many of you don't get together with your friends to watch Lakers games?" Obviously this isn't anything we're going to correct by posting on an obscure internet forum. But the fact that we're discussing it is what I like. For this particular incident, it's all we can do. But it beats doing nothing, because it means that we aren't willing to let this go unnoticed and unchecked.


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## coreysMonster (Jan 31, 2016)

I just watched the clip of the whole incident, and holy crap it's worse than I thought. He's standing at the edge of the stage, no music is being played, he does the Nazi salute and BELLOWS "White Power". That does not look like somebody joking around to me, and it gives me a terrible feeling in my stomach because of how serious it looks. 
Bla bla shock value etc., no. Just, no. This is not something you joke around with, this is not mocking a religion or a belief system or done in self-mockery of what he's doing, this is making light of, at best, and at worst being downright supportive of a very real, very evil hate group.

Goddammit, Phil. Get your .... together you asshole.


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## Five Ten (Jan 31, 2016)

MikeH said:


> Are people really shocked at this? Phil has been doing his white pride gig since the 80s. He's a backwoods country boy racist and always has been. He's a badass musician (yes, I enjoy all of his projects), but he's also an idiot. It's a shame, because I really like a lot of other aspects of his personality, and his music, but this is just not something anyone can agree with.



Shocked, no, but it's still worth sharing discontent. It's never okay to just let somebody do something truly foolish without some sort of reprimand. 

I don't think it's wrong to appreciate art created by bad people. Hitler, for example, painted a lot. Some of his paintings are quite good, and there is no shame in admitting something like that. Provided there is no hate within the art of course.

The line of acceptable blurs a bit when it comes to giving the artist compensation though. I would never want to give a bad person my hard earned money. Whether it's a racist like Phil, or a pedophile like Ian Watkins.


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## Sermo Lupi (Jan 31, 2016)

Five Ten said:


> Shocked, no, but it's still worth sharing discontent.
> The line of acceptable blurs a bit when it comes to giving the artist compensation though. I would never want to give a bad person my hard earned money. Whether it's a racist like Phil, or a pedophile like Ian Watkins.



Someone else mentioned a few pages back that they'd just listen to the racist's music for free on Youtube or whatever so as to not 'support' their views, but I don't think that's right either. What, their art is still worth your attention, but not your compensation? Just sounds too much like having your cake and eating it too. If you're going to continue enjoying their music, continue to pay them for it. By all means cut all ties if that's what you want to do, but these half measures of 'I'll continue to enjoy their music, but I'll steal it to spite them' is utter BS. Not directing that statement at you, by the way, to avoid any confusion. 

Anyway, what Phil did here was absolutely a disgusting thing to do. And in all honesty, given where he's from and for how long he's flirted with racist views in the public eye, I'd wager he holds some less-than-progressive opinions. In particular, he's expressed in the past that he believes whites are persecuted to some extent through so-called 'reverse racism' (a term which Dimebag's girlfriend also invoked in her statement on this whole fracas), and through these feelings, seems to draw some strength for antics like this. Even if he's not an avowed racist, I do think he feels actions like this aren't exactly wrong. I'd imagine his thinking would be along the lines of the defense Robb Flynn caricatured in his video: 'what, a black dude can raise his fist and shout black power, but I can't do the same and shout white power? How is that not racist against me and my kind?' 

As with so many others, I stopped paying attention to Phil after Pantera broke up. I saw him and Down live a decade ago (opening for Megadeth) and they were pretty awful, which only helped to further turn me off his music. But the fact remains that Pantera is probably in just about every metalhead's 'top-10 all time' list, and we have no control over what our idols do later on in their careers long after we developed a love for them. It puts us in an awkward position, yes, but I don't think you have to immediately renounce an artist's life work because of statements they made toward the end of their career. There's some parallels here with Dave Mustaine's conspiracy-fueled music that I grew up loving as a teen, but found myself shaking my head when he gave that 'Obama staged the Aurora shootings' rant a couple years back. F_u_ck that nonsense, even if that same conspiratorial mindset gave us some fantastic albums. 

The point I'm getting at is that I'll continue to listen to Pantera with a guilt-free conscience regardless of what Phil says or does from here on out. But in case it hasn't been made clear enough by all these other posts already, that doesn't mean we shouldn't be speaking out against what Phil has done here. You can still like his past work and hate his current actions; it's not like he gets a pass for life to say whatever he wants just because he was in a band that's one of the all-time greats.


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## Veldar (Feb 1, 2016)

Ugh...

Glad to see the metal community, especially the younger side of it calling Phil out. I'm strongly in the camp that metal is stuck in the past and everyone's afraid of change so seeing a lot of bands & people not being scared to call out a metal "idol" makes me happy.

But I still hate "true" metal scenes.


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## Thorerges (Feb 1, 2016)

Anselmo has a history of doing this, for more than a decade now. 

Keep in mind, this is in ....ing Korea. He is standing infront of Asians and yelling that ...., insane. I always gave Phil a free pass under the excuse that he was so high on heroin he was just out of his mind. Not anymore, this is borderline ridiculous. 

Props to Flynn for the video, amazing that Phil used the word ni**er so casually to describe Machine Head. Insane.


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## Señor Voorhees (Feb 1, 2016)

Sermo Lupi said:


> Someone else mentioned a few pages back that they'd just listen to the racist's music for free on Youtube or whatever so as to not 'support' their views, but I don't think that's right either. What, their art is still worth your attention, but not your compensation? Just sounds too much like having your cake and eating it too. If you're going to continue enjoying their music, continue to pay them for it. By all means cut all ties if that's what you want to do, but these half measures of 'I'll continue to enjoy their music, but I'll steal it to spite them' is utter BS. Not directing that statement at you, by the way, to avoid any confusion.




I'd personally have no qualms with stealing someone like that's music. If they're gonna treat any race as sub human, then there are far worse things I'd wish upon them than a few lost bucks. 

I actually have a hard time appreciating art by biggots though, but I think Five Ten meant that if you already own some art, don't just toss it out because certain things came to light.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 1, 2016)

Señor Voorhees;4523984 said:


> I'd personally have no qualms with stealing someone like that's music. If they're gonna treat any race as sub human, then there are far worse things I'd wish upon them than a few lost bucks.



But how often is that person the only one involved with that music? Should thier bandmates, label, production team get stiffed because they came out as a turd?


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## Andromalia (Feb 1, 2016)

White wine. It's the stupidest excuse he could come with, apart from "I'm playing weeniee white in Magic the Gathering".


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## Pav (Feb 1, 2016)

MaxOfMetal said:


> But how often is that person the only one involved with that music? Should thier bandmates, label, production team get stiffed because they came out as a turd?



That actually sounds like an interesting snowball effect. Perhaps if that scenario were to come to fruition, his bandmates, label and production team would (eventually) take notice that his douchery is affecting all of them collectively. Over time, those people would naturally want to distance themselves from him and eventually, Phil would find himself on a metaphorical island where no one in the industry wants anything to do with him. The people that work with/around him don't necessarily deserve to be shafted simply because of his antics, but should the thought of the people working behind the scenes prevent a man from reaping what he has sown?

Just a hypothesis.


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## Señor Voorhees (Feb 1, 2016)

MaxOfMetal said:


> But how often is that person the only one involved with that music? Should thier bandmates, label, production team get stiffed because they came out as a turd?




After someone comes out as a racist pile of ...., everyone should do what they can to not associate with them, unless they're okay with that behavior. In which case, they deserve to have money taken away too. Regardless, they'd be out of the money if my only two options were to outright boycott and not listen/buy at all, or if I just didn't buy it and stole it instead. 

As it is, I have a hard time appreciating art after somebody comes out and does something like this, so I actually tend to avoid music by said artist, whether I bought it already or not so this isn't something I really do anyway.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 1, 2016)

Pav said:


> That actually sounds like an interesting snowball effect. Perhaps if that scenario were to come to fruition, his bandmates, label and production team would (eventually) take notice that his douchery is affecting all of them collectively.





Señor Voorhees;4524113 said:


> After someone comes out as a racist pile of ...., everyone should do what they can to not associate with them, unless they're okay with that behavior. In which case, they deserve to have money taken away too.



If we were talking about some small time Internet shredder that would make sense, but Phil (and other larger artists) is in a position where a lot of the people who help make his music happen probably haven't even met him in person. Not to mention the contract side of things that makes it almost impossible to just dump him without taking a hit. 

As someone else said, it's having your cake and eating it too. Which is pretty hard to justify if trying to take the moral high ground.


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## fps (Feb 1, 2016)

heathenhotel said:


> Scum bag bands jumping all over the bandwagon opportunities to chime in and snag some free media time. Robb Flynn included. Not saying they are wrong for standing against racism but it's not legitimate from the heart when it's to get your band some spotlight. I hope Phil gets some help with his alcoholism though, maybe this situation will push him into trying some rehab again.



What a load of nonsense. If not Robb Flynn, who has toured with him, who is a hugely well-known and respected musician in the metal scene, then who? The silence after this happened was DEAFENING. It was SICKENING. I'm glad someone stepped up.

As for "calling out this behaviour does more harm than good", WRONG, 100% WRONG, this is how humans progress and always have progressed, by taking a stand against what is UNACCEPTABLE. And if you don't know what censorship or restriction of freedom of speech truly are, don't be stupid enough to call me out for saying it.


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## VBCheeseGrater (Feb 1, 2016)

jwade said:


>




seems like a sincere apology - good enough for me, he denounced what he said. Not much more he can do now accept maybe join the NAACP.

He effed up, he apologized, life goes on.


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## Duosphere (Feb 1, 2016)

VBCheeseGrater said:


> seems like a sincere apology - good enough for me, he denounced what he said. Not much more he can do now accept maybe join the NAACP.
> 
> He effed up, he apologized, life goes on.



To me that's nonsense and I don't buy a word he said.
Whoever understands what the Holocaust was, NEVER uses it to make fun or as an internal joke.You could cover me with heroine still my brain would never think about Hitler, that would be insanity.
I can forgive whatever he did because I don't grow anger in my heart but still I don't buy any word he said and I hope his fanboys won't spread more racism cause there's only one race......human race.


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## Vres (Feb 1, 2016)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> If there's something that scares me, it's that people are alright with Phil acting like a racist and white supremacist _on this very forum_, and are actively trying to defend the dude and calling us out for being easily offended. How ....ty of a person do you have to be to be fine with that?


Every forum has contrarians and other kinds of losers. Just keep on scrolling past them.


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## asher (Feb 1, 2016)

VBCheeseGrater said:


> seems like a sincere apology - good enough for me, he denounced what he said. Not much more he can do now accept maybe join the NAACP.
> 
> He effed up, he apologized, life goes on.



He can stop pulling this kittening act over and over. His apology means little if he doesn't change his actions.


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## Aymara (Feb 1, 2016)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Not to mention the contract side of things ...



... which I bet forced him to publish this apology video. It's all about money.


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## USMarine75 (Feb 1, 2016)

"Walk" was on satellite radio and my son mentioned Phil's neo-nazi behavior to me the other day. I just laughed and shrugged it off, because I thought he was just referencing Phil's dumbass comments and actions from the 90's. I didn't realize he was still at it...


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## nikt (Feb 1, 2016)

Duosphere said:


> To me that's nonsense and I don't buy a word he said.
> Whoever understands what the Holocaust was, NEVER uses it to make fun or as an internal joke.You could cover me with heroine still my brain would never think about Hitler, that would be insanity.



Nonsense is putting Holocaust argument in this discussion.


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## asher (Feb 1, 2016)

nikt said:


> Nonsense is putting Holocaust argument in this discussion.



When the guy is doing Nazi salutes and yelling "white power"? Notsomuch.


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## Duosphere (Feb 1, 2016)

nikt said:


> Nonsense is putting Holocaust argument in this discussion.


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## nikt (Feb 1, 2016)

asher said:


> When the guy is doing Nazi salutes and yelling "white power"? Notsomuch.



And you put that on the same level as mass extermination of almost 6 million jews?


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## USMarine75 (Feb 1, 2016)

nikt said:


> Nonsense is putting Holocaust argument in this discussion.


----------



## Kobalt (Feb 1, 2016)

Esp Griffyn said:


> What do you guys think?


I think that...no matter what his beliefs and/or intentions are/were, I don't support them in any way shape or form.

I remember Phil for what he's done in music, aka Pantera. The rest is unimportant to my eyes; whether he acts like a great guy or a racist piece of .....

My favorite guitarist is Dave Mustaine, that speaks volumes. He's more often than not a pretentious, egotistical piece of ...., but no one, nothing, is going to take my Megadeth away.

If anything, it's just hilariously pathetic that someone would still act this way in 2016.


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## ArtDecade (Feb 1, 2016)

Phil is a drunk, racist asshammer. 
I thought we knew that already.


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## Aymara (Feb 1, 2016)

ArtDecade said:


> Phil is a drunk, racist asshammer.
> I thought we knew that already.



Well this discussion clearly shows, that many didn't knew it, me included, because I never was a Pantera fan. I only liked the first two Down albums, so I knew his name, that he was a junkie and that's it.


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## Aymara (Feb 1, 2016)

nikt said:


> Nonsense is putting Holocaust argument in this discussion.



Well, when someone uses the Hitler salutation, it's quite obvious, that he sympathizes with Nazis, right? Further comments not needed, I guess.


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## monkeysuncle (Feb 1, 2016)

Well in his defense maybe he forgot the lyrics?

Joking aside there is no acceptable excuse for what Phil did. As has been stated numerous times, he's been doing this crud for years now and always seems to have an excuse ready to go (drunk, high, not having an IQ over 70, etc.). 

On a lighter note, Rob Flynn did a pretty spot on impression of Phil in his video.


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## Randy (Feb 1, 2016)

From this day forward, I hereby establish "Randy's Law"



> "In any conversation, if someone is to mention Nazis (even in the course of discussing actual Nazis, Adolph Hitler, White Supremacists,etc.) someone will cite Godwin's Law and attempt to invalidate said argument. Because you're never allowed to mention Nazis?"


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## monkeysuncle (Feb 1, 2016)

Also get way the fugg outta here for using your middle initial every time you address yourself. You ain't a president dummy.


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## Der JD (Feb 1, 2016)

Not condoning Phil's actions in any way but if this were turned around and it had been a black rapper or hip hop artist that had said something racist about white people or "black power" at a show how many f**ks would be given?

Zero.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 1, 2016)

Der JD said:


> Not condoning Phil's actions in any way but if this were turned around and it had been a black rapper or hip hop artist that had said something racist about white people or "black power" at a show how many f**s would be given?
> 
> Zero.



It's funny, because Robb Flynn actually covered people like you in his video.


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## Chokey Chicken (Feb 1, 2016)

Der JD said:


> Not condoning Phil's actions in any way but if this were turned around and it had been a black rapper or hip hop artist that had said something racist about white people or "black power" at a show how many f**ks would be given?
> 
> Zero.



Who invited the straw man to the party?


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## big_aug (Feb 1, 2016)

When we start ruining the lives of people we know who do those things, then I'll get on board. When people start uploading videos of people in their circles that they actually know and care about, that's progress. Id like someone to start a smear campaign against their grandparent for a racist remark.

Until then, he apologized. It's over.


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## Chokey Chicken (Feb 1, 2016)

If you're done discussing it, you're free to leave. Others don't need to follow your lead if they don't want to.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 1, 2016)

Also, you said you don't care about the situation. Why do you keep coming back if that's so?


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## JohnIce (Feb 1, 2016)

Der JD said:


> Not condoning Phil's actions in any way but if this were turned around and it had been a black rapper or hip hop artist that had said something racist about white people or "black power" at a show how many f**ks would be given?
> 
> Zero.



Because they're not comparable. I have an idea, watch American History X for example and ask yourself "would this movie be realistic or believable at all if all the main characters were black instead of white?". The answer is no, it would not. That's why "white power" and "black power" are not just the same thing.


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## Duosphere (Feb 1, 2016)

big_aug said:


> When we start ruining the lives of people we know who do those things, then I'll get on board. When people start uploading videos of people in their circles that they actually know and care about, that's progress. Id like someone to start a smear campaign against their grandparent for a racist remark.
> 
> Until then, he apologized. It's over.



So, everybody has a racist grandparent?
Everybody has racist friends?
Not my case.
If I see any relatives or friends with any racist behavior, for sure that person won't be part of my life anymore, I want good smart people around me, not dumbasses.I remember one night at a bar, there was that gay guy feeling bad because he ate something bad, he was alone in a corner, I went there and asked if he wanted me to take him to a hospital, we kept talking about it then he asked me why I was trying to help him because my friends would make fun of me helping a gay guy, they would call me gay, I replied I didn't have stupid friends.He laughed and accepted my help.It was like 15 years ago and still today I remember his eyes so happy because somebody wanted to help him, that has no price.
So.....again........I don't have stupid relatives/friends around me.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 1, 2016)

Der JD said:


> Not condoning Phil's actions in any way but if this were turned around and it had been a black rapper or hip hop artist that had said something racist about white people or "black power" at a show how many f**ks would be given?
> 
> Zero.



For real! 

I guess everyone likes to forget the time the Black Panthers overthrew the US government, put whites in camps and........Oh yeah, none of that happened. 

Osmium got nothing on you.


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## Rawkmann (Feb 1, 2016)

big_aug said:


> When we start ruining the lives of people we know who do those things, then I'll get on board. When people start uploading videos of people in their circles that they actually know and care about, that's progress. Id like someone to start a smear campaign against their grandparent for a racist remark.
> 
> Until then, he apologized. It's over.



Lol, nobody wants to see someone's life ruined. Phil is doing a good enough job of that for himself. Also, most people's grandparents aren't public figures.


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## coreysMonster (Feb 1, 2016)

To be fair, if a black guy went on stage, did the Nazi salute and shouted HEIL HITLER he'd probably not get an exactly warm response, either.


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## Der JD (Feb 1, 2016)

JohnIce said:


> Because they're not comparable. I have an idea, watch American History X for example and ask yourself "would this movie be realistic or believable at all if all the main characters were black instead of white?". The answer is no, it would not. That's why "white power" and "black power" are not just the same thing.



Racism is racism. Preaching hate is wrong regardless of who is doing the preaching. I'm simply making the point that it seems that it's only wrong (taboo, brings attention) if the preacher is white (at least in the US right now). Racism isn't just a one-way street. Anyone can be a victim.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 1, 2016)

"White power" =/= "Black pride"

And if a black person did the .... Phil did, but aimed at white people, you're damn right they would get lambasted.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 1, 2016)

Der JD said:


> Racism is racism. Preaching hate is wrong regardless of who is doing the preaching. I'm simply making the point that it seems that it's only wrong (taboo, brings attention) if the preacher is white (at least in the US right now). Racism isn't just a one-way street. Anyone can be a victim.



You're welcome to start a thread about all the time black rappers brought up black superiority on stage and referenced white genocide. 

No need to bring a pointless, straw man position in here. Especially a hypothetical one.

Also, fun fact, the salute that Phil did isn't exclusively "pro white" or "anti black" it's actually pro-certain-type-of-white, so he was actually offending a large chunk of the white population as well. The more you know.


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## Duosphere (Feb 1, 2016)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> "White power" =/= "Black pride"
> 
> And if a black person did the .... Phil did, but aimed at white people, you're damn right they would get lambasted.



Sadly we(the white guys) are the bigger problem, luckly our friends with other colors know not all white people think the same , the same as people of their colors don't think the same too, there are good and bad people no matter their colors.I love the blue color because it reminds of the sea and the sky, sadly I'm white not blue, I wasn't allowed to choose my color but I chose the person I am.


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## ArtDecade (Feb 1, 2016)

Der JD said:


> Not condoning Phil's actions in any way but if this were turned around and it had been a black rapper or hip hop artist that had said something racist about white people or "black power" at a show how many f**ks would be given?
> 
> Zero.



... wow. "That guy" just showed up.


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## Chokey Chicken (Feb 1, 2016)

Der JD said:


> Racism is racism. Preaching hate is wrong regardless of who is doing the preaching. I'm simply making the point that it seems that it's only wrong (taboo, brings attention) if the preacher is white (at least in the US right now). Racism isn't just a one-way street. Anyone can be a victim.



It's true, racism is racism and should be talked about whenever the need arises. That's why threads like this are good. It's good to correct a person of color when they step over the line, just like it's good to call attention to whites who cross that line.

The problem is that .... is slanted WAY against minorities. Case and point, we can't even talk about a white man's blatant racism without "that guy" (in this case it's you) bringing up "well people say racist things against whites, it's not just minorities that deal with racism."

We're not talking about racism towards whites. Hell, you didn't even bring up a real example, but a hypothetical situation. I could go even further with it and say that if a black guy went up on stage and started shouting hate speech towards whites, not only would somebody say something about it, but there's a good chance he would be beaten within inches of his life, maybe even killed.


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## Edika (Feb 1, 2016)

As everywhere else this discussion has blown up in this forum too. Honestly, while I listened to Pantera, I wasn't a big fan or paid attention to their lyrics. I never saw live performances with Phil doing this kind of crap. I always kind of had him in my mind as that lovable a-hole "tough" guy. After the initial shock of what he did, what really pissed me off was the effort from a lot of people to either shrug it off as one of his antics, of him being an alcoholic washed up ex druggie, of words being just words and people being too sensitive and to toughen up.
To those people I'll say have a good look at what's happening in Europe now. The current migrant crisis has actually surfaced all the racist scum that slowly has been festering because no one has been speaking out considering them just graphic remnants of a bygone age. Is it in the 1940's that 100 people with masks attacked foreign people in Stockholm? Is it in the 1940's that in the Netherlands they are trying to pass a law of taking the money and personal possessions of refugees to "welcome" them into their folds? Is it in the 1940's that most EU countries would rather see people freeze to death than collaborating and finding solutions that don't involve concentration camps? Is it in the 1940's that several parties posted images of assaulted women claiming they were sexual victims of the refugees only to be proven they were from completely different events, some from several years ago and from different countries? In my country alone the neonazi party has accumulated almost 7% of votes in the last elections. They suddenly emerged among the crisis as the saviors that clean up the corrupt system (with violence of course) and bring justice to the masses. Does this line remind you something?

So Phil maybe an insignificant musician that his opinion doesn't matter, but it seems it matters to a lot of people. One good thing is that this is finally exposed so there can be discussions about it, whether online or in person. The people with these kind of beliefs may not be swayed but the people that were uninformed or hanging somewhere in the middle can be swayed. People's opinions also influence politics and the extreme opinions are more vocal. If the moderate right was more vocal in the US, for example, you wouldn't have this freakshow for Republican candidates or at least they would be singing a different tune.


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## JohnIce (Feb 1, 2016)

Der JD said:


> Racism is racism. Preaching hate is wrong regardless of who is doing the preaching. I'm simply making the point that it seems that it's only wrong (taboo, brings attention) if the preacher is white (at least in the US right now). Racism isn't just a one-way street. Anyone can be a victim.



"Black power" and "black pride" isn't preaching hate though, they're slogans for black solidarity and equality. They're tied to civil rights movements, just like gay pride. Some might interpret black pride as anti-white, but it's anti-_oppression_ from whites and people, both black and white, tend to get the difference. Some radicals will always have a hard time with where the line is drawn, as in any other civil rights movement. However, at the end of the day the historical use of these slogans are polar opposites to "white power" which is a 100% racist, white supremacist and oppressive ideology.


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## lemeker (Feb 2, 2016)

fps said:


> Huge Pantera and Down fan here



Same here. 



> ....enough is enough...... poisonous things he says and does.
> The number of people defending him and saying it doesn't matter is also hugely depressing. Really takes the legs out from under what the metal scene should be standing for.



This is the way I feel about the whole situation. 

What Phil did was abhorrent. There's no excuse for it at all. I think he really needs to take a step back and examine his choices in life and the decisions he makes. 

However, I'm not going to let the actions/views of one ruin the great music (in Pantera's case) that the other guys in the band made. I think that would be unfair to Vinnie, Dime and Rex.


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## jwade (Feb 2, 2016)

When I saw the apology video, it felt like watching a younger sibling being forced to apologize to the neighbor kid they punched/stole from/etc.


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## Aymara (Feb 2, 2016)

Edika said:


> To those people I'll say have a good look at what's happening in Europe now.



Thanks for pointing to that problem, which I guess isn't known well enough outside Europe.

It is not funny, what's happening here right now. And it goes far beyond typical racism.

Millions of refugees are an organisational and political problem, e.g. how protect them against the winter, how to give them shelter ... and now also how to protect them against fascists, that attack refugee camps with mollotov cocktails 

A further problem is fear of potential terrorism and criminals ... this is a pretty new kind of racism, which arises here.

And if we see Anselmo's behaviour in this context, it might be understandable, that a German anti-facist like me says, that all this gives me the creeps.


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## Pav (Feb 2, 2016)

jwade said:


> When I saw the apology video, it felt like watching a younger sibling being forced to apologize to the neighbor kid they punched/stole from/etc.



Yep. Someone (or some people) undoubtedly helped push him to do it to diffuse the PR disaster he had unleashed. 

To me, he didn't sound genuinely apologetic at all. He sounded like he was trying to backtrack when he realized how many feathers he ruffled. But...


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## Double A (Feb 2, 2016)

Der JD said:


> Racism is racism. Preaching hate is wrong regardless of who is doing the preaching. I'm simply making the point that it seems that it's only wrong (taboo, brings attention) if the preacher is white (at least in the US right now). Racism isn't just a one-way street. Anyone can be a victim.


This is... Let's just say racism=\=racism and I don't want to take the time out to explain to someone that willfully ignores the history of his own country. 1965 was not a long time ago. If you feel white people are oppressed then you just lack perspective.

As for this whole thing in general, I haven't listened to Pantera since I first listened to Cynic - Focus, which was probably like 10 years ago. Me feeling is that Phil is a huge idiot and has always said .... like this while drunk and while not drunk but in the current climate of social media and cameras everywhere this was inevitable and he is getting what he deserves.


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## canuck brian (Feb 2, 2016)

It sounds like Phil going thru the motions apologizing again for doing something incredibly stupid while drunk and/or high and/or just being Phil. 

I wish he'd just stop being in the public eye...he's just tarnishing whatever name he had left at this point.


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## ArtDecade (Feb 2, 2016)

canuck brian said:


> I wish he'd just stop being in the public eye...he's just tarnishing whatever name he had left at this point.



Racism aside (if that is possible), isn't tarnishing what's left of your reputation standard operating procedure for addicts that refuse to get help? Even without the stupid crap he says on stage and in interviews, his performances are downright terrible. Listen to the live Down album (if you can, because its horrible). To say that he delivers some of the worst vocal performances ever put to tape is still giving him too much credit. He might not even know how far down the rabbit hole he has already fallen. 

Phil is well past his sell-by date.


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## canuck brian (Feb 2, 2016)

ArtDecade said:


> Racism aside (if that is possible), isn't tarnishing what's left of your reputation standard operating procedure for addicts that refuse to get help? Even without the stupid crap he says on stage and in interviews, his performances are downright terrible. Listen to the live Down album (if you can, because its horrible). To say that he delivers some of the worst vocal performances ever put to tape is still giving him too much credit. He might not even know how far down the rabbit hole he has already fallen.
> 
> Phil is well past his sell-by date.



Preachin to the choir here.  I can't even watch those videos of Phil playing Pantera covers at the Metal Masters shows...its just goddamn awful.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 2, 2016)

Hearing him do Ace of Spades at Dimebash was ....ing embarrassing.


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## asher (Feb 2, 2016)

jwade said:


> When I saw the apology video, it felt like watching a younger sibling being forced to apologize to the neighbor kid they punched/stole from/etc.



When the yard duty teacher makes the bully in elementary school apologize as if somehow that does anything at all to fix it.


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## Detested (Feb 2, 2016)

After a couple of days of soaking this stuff in,itseems like giving this guy alcohol or drugs is like giving explosives to the taliban.I would be embarrassed and pissed if I were a fellow musician,doing that at a charity event,its time to stop drinking Id say.Makes me wonder whether all his bandmates had also some racist views or scared of the guy.
Probably the money.


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## TedEH (Feb 2, 2016)

I didn't read the entirety of the thread, 'cause I'm not super interested in reading peoples arguments about racism, so I don't know if this has been mentioned or not but-

The part of this whole deal that bothers me*, is how quick people are to jump on the "racism in metal" tagline. I don't think this has anything to do with metal, and I'm sure the conversation in this thread shows that 99.9% of the community would much rather distance themselves from the whole deal. Lots of people have put a considerable amount of effort into trying to establish the community of metal-and-heavy-music enthusiasts as being welcoming to everyone, but all it takes is a few clickbait articles to throw us under the bus labeled as a bunch of racist/sexist/devil-worshiping/church-burning weirdos. Every group has less-than-ideal representatives, there's no need to drag the group down by associating the actions of a few people with the whole group. That being said, I have nothing against criticism pointed squarely at the person who was being racist in the first place.





(*I don't mean this to say that the racism doesn't both me- the racism also bothers me, but I suppose in a more indirect way. The fact that racism is out there is well established and admittedly doesn't affect me in a direct way most of the time, so it has a different sort of impact.)


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## xzacx (Feb 2, 2016)

lemeker said:


> However, I'm not going to let the actions/views of one ruin the great music (in Pantera's case) that the other guys in the band made. I think that would be unfair to Vinnie, Dime and Rex.



I'll admit that I never have been a Pantera fan. But I know I could never be in a band with someone who felt/acted that way. I'm not necessarily suggesting that the rest of the band agreed with him, but I do think it's fair to say that, at very minimum, they tolerated it. Which is also not OK - especially considering the fact that there's documented instances of Phil speaking like this during the Pantera days.


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## lucasreis (Feb 2, 2016)

I still didn't weigh in on this situation but my position is:

I think what he did was stupid, it was ....ty, uncalled for. But I won't stop listening to his songs and Pantera and Down's legacies weren't tarnished a bit to me. The music speaks for itself. I have great memories of these bands songs and I would never stop listening to them because of it. 

I separate the musician from the person. There are all kinds of asshole artists and if we tried to only listen to good people music we would end up having almost nothing to listen because EVERYONE has skeletons on their closets (some less, some more). Nobody is perfect, and Phil certainly isn't, but what I think it's awful is the fact that a lot of people are going on the internet to rant about how they're saints or something like that. These "moral police" kind of individuals bother me as much as Phil doing what he did. No one is perfect, and it's impossible to be kind all the time and not have bad thoughts. Not justifying racism, at all, but I hate people who jump on the bandwagon to bash Phil to show how they are morally superior or some ..... Get a grip. We're all human, we're all going to die, we're all going to vanish. 

One of my best friends is black, he is a Pantera fan and he is pissed with what Phil did. I also think what Phil did is dumb as hell and I wish he would never do it again (I think, this time, with all of the backlash, he won't). And it's ....ty that people in 2015 have this mentality, it's a stupid mentality, but still... it's easy to throw the guy on fire and pretend we're all saints with no bad thoughts whatsoever, and that's absolutely bull..... I'm not racist, but I'm not perfect either, we all have thought or done bad things in life, in varying levels, and I think his behavior has to be condemned, but this whole "we're so perfect - .... this guy" behavior is what gets me. 

My 2 cents. Still love Pantera and Down and whatnot, but I wish Phil would regenerate from being like this.


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## coreysMonster (Feb 2, 2016)

xzacx said:


> but I do think it's fair to say that, at very minimum, they tolerated it.


Well they DID eventually break the band up, so it's not like they just ignored it like it was no big deal. 

Also, when it's your friend and they do ....ty things when they're wasted, it's kinda hard to just drop them like a hot potato. It takes time for it to get to the point where you realise there's no helping them.

I don't think it's fair to put the blame on the other three when they fought against Phil's bull.... for years.



> but I hate people who jump on the bandwagon to bash Phil to show how they are morally superior


It's not about being morally superior, this is not getting mad at a white person for wearing a sombrero kinda thing, this is about a dangerous line that should not be crossed.
White supremacy slogans and Nazi salutes are a pretty universal fricking no-go and it's absolutely vital for people to not tolerate them.


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## Edika (Feb 2, 2016)

Saying that this specific behavior is not tolerable is not being morally superior, it's being a decent human being. My 2 cents.


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## Duosphere (Feb 2, 2016)

Edika said:


> Saying that this specific behavior is not tolerable is not being morally superior, it's being a decent human being. My 2 cents.



That's it. 

I'm not perfect, I committed a lot of mistakes but those mistakes NEVER messed up another person's life......NEVER, those mistakes messed up my own life only.And like somebody said above " we all have thought or done bad things in life".........NO...............I never affected somebody's life in a negative way, we don't choose how we look but we choose how we are.I don't judge people by looking or social class, I judge people based on their characters, does that mean I'm perfect or superior?Not at all, it's just the way I CHOSE to be, it was a choice, something you learn day by day fighting your animal instincts.If I did, anybody can do it too so that excuse of having bad family or bad friends building your character never worked with me cause in the end, you choose your character.


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## lucasreis (Feb 2, 2016)

Edika said:


> Saying that this specific behavior is not tolerable is not being morally superior, it's being a decent human being. My 2 cents.



I agree wholeheartedly.

I wasn't talking about you guys. I was talking about several people online who aren't really examples of tolerance trying to be morally superior. 

I condem his behavior as well, I think it's ....ty, it's ignorant, it's total bull crap. But I've seen some people who aren't tolerant with other kinds of people they don't like preaching against prejudice when they are racist-intolerant themselves with other people. This is what I was talking about. I know some people who say they are tolerant but they have their own box of individuals they hate (because they don't agree with their agenda). I know some people who cry that everyone is intolerant but they are even more intolerant than the people they call intolerant. 

But regarding Phil... he deserves ALL THE CRAP he is getting for this. And I agree with both of you (and several people on this board) on it.


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## lucasreis (Feb 2, 2016)

Duosphere said:


> That's it.
> 
> I'm not perfect, I committed a lot of mistakes but those mistakes NEVER messed up another person's life......NEVER, those mistakes messed up my own life only.And like somebody said above " we all have thought or done bad things in life".........NO...............I never affected somebody's life in a negative way, we don't choose how we look but we choose how we are.I don't judge people by looking or social class, I judge people upon their characters, does that mean I'm perfect or superior?Not at all, it's just the way I CHOSE to be, it was a choice, something you learn day by day fighting your animal instincts.If I did, anybody can do it too so that excuse of having bad family or bad friends building your character never worked with me cause in the end, you choose your character.



I also agree with you.

But I was saying that some people are hypocrites and some people aren't. Get it?

Sevenstring.org is actually one of the best places I've seen regarding this subject. There are a lot of intelligent individuals here. Not the same on Facebook, for example.


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## Duosphere (Feb 2, 2016)

lucasreis said:


> I also agree with you.
> 
> But I was saying that some people are hypocrites and some people aren't. Get it?
> 
> Sevenstring.org is actually one of the best places I've seen regarding this subject. There are a lot of intelligent individuals here. Not the same on Facebook, for example.


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## electriceye (Feb 2, 2016)

This isn't a "racism in metal" thing for me either. Frankly, I'm willing to bet the farm that country music fans are more of that nature.

Anyway, I recall Phil going on some disgusting rant about women many years ago during a show in the Midwest somewhere. It was pretty appalling. I hadn't thought about it much until I saw this video. I'm glad he was exposed. He's a White Supremacist (or a wannabe - does it matter?). And it doesn't belong ANYWHERE, metal or not. What he did was not some joke. No one I know jokes like that. Add to that the stuff he allegedly said to Rob Flynn backstage. I'm taking Rob's word for it and I believe what Phil allegedly said to him as well.

So, Phil can disappear for all I care. I say that as a compassionate human being, not a metal fan.


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## TedEH (Feb 2, 2016)

electriceye said:


> This isn't a "racism in metal" thing for me either. Frankly, I'm willing to bet the farm that country music fans are more of that nature.



I've just been seeing a trend lately of undesirable -"isms" being attached to very broad and generalized groups of people, which has done a lot to alienate or vilify people who feel like they're being blamed for behavior they never took part in.

The first wave of articles that I saw about this whole deal were all clickbaity nonsense that heavily implied that metal in itself was racist. Seems like newer articles, updates, and any serious discussion has been more appropriately titled so far, based on a google search I did just now.

Also:
Racism is Phil Anselmo's problem, not metal's | Music | The Guardian


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## Zalbu (Feb 2, 2016)

Didn't Pantera break up because Phil was a junkie? You'd think he'd seek help for his addiction problems at some point if alcohol turns him into Hitler junior.


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## coreysMonster (Feb 2, 2016)

TedEH said:


> Also:
> Racism is Phil Anselmo's problem, not metal's | Music | The Guardian


The article makes a good point about bands flirting with fascist imagry without actually promoting it. Rammstein's the perfect example, who, fed up with being accused of being Nazis in the press, wrote "Links-2-3-4", a martial industrial march about one's heart beating to the Left.


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## JohnIce (Feb 2, 2016)

lucasreis said:


> Nobody is perfect, and Phil certainly isn't, but what I think it's awful is the fact that a lot of people are going on the internet to rant about how they're saints or something like that. These "moral police" kind of individuals bother me as much as Phil doing what he did. No one is perfect, and it's impossible to be kind all the time and not have bad thoughts. Not justifying racism, at all, but I hate people who jump on the bandwagon to bash Phil to show how they are morally superior or some ..... Get a grip. We're all human, we're all going to die, we're all going to vanish.
> 
> One of my best friends is black, he is a Pantera fan and he is pissed with what Phil did. I also think what Phil did is dumb as hell and I wish he would never do it again (I think, this time, with all of the backlash, he won't). And it's ....ty that people in 2015 have this mentality, it's a stupid mentality, but still... it's easy to throw the guy on fire and pretend we're all saints with no bad thoughts whatsoever, and that's absolutely bull..... I'm not racist, but I'm not perfect either, we all have thought or done bad things in life, in varying levels, and I think his behavior has to be condemned, but this whole "we're so perfect - .... this guy" behavior is what gets me.
> 
> My 2 cents. Still love Pantera and Down and whatnot, but I wish Phil would regenerate from being like this.



I get your point especially from your clarifications, but I think that if you're presented with facts and logic that get explained poorly or are just very complex or foreign, it's easy to assume the arguments have to do with morals or opinion when they really don't. Because that's an easy way out of a heated discussion, as morals are subjective and can be brushed off as such for a quick exit. Especially for someone who is used to arguing from "gut feeling" or "core values" themselves and assumes other people do that as well. As John Cleese said: "Someone who's absolutely no good at something (arguing, in this case) lacks exactly the skill needed to _know_ that they are no good at it." The Dunning-Kruger effect, which is very scary to read about, for sure 

But for example the "straw man argument" brought up earlier in this thread. It's a logical fallacy, period. Nothing moral about it. But someone who doesn't know that, or can't be bothered to google it for 5 minutes to learn what a straw man argument is, will all too often brush that critique off as someone trying to be all high and mighty, which just isn't the case.

So yeah, my long-winded way of saying the "moral highground" is easily misinterpreted  As for skeletons in the closet, I can only speak for myself but yeah, my interest in social issues is completely rooted in self improvement and understanding my own flaws and ignorance. So yeah, skeletons all up in that bitch.


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## HoneyNut (Feb 2, 2016)

Phil is a terrorist. Metalheads aren't.


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## Thorerges (Feb 2, 2016)

TedEH said:


> Also:
> Racism is Phil Anselmo's problem, not metal's | Music | The Guardian



Ok, Phil Anselmo is undeniably racist and a complete tool for pulling off that ...., no doubt about it. I defended him when he was high on heroin, I am certainly not defending him now. 

Also, I'll openly state that I am a social liberal and in support of affirmative action.

However, this article was almost cringeworthy to read. The author makes it seem like metal is a social justice movement of some kind.


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## jwade (Feb 2, 2016)

Jeesan said:


> Phil is a terrorist.



wat.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 2, 2016)

jwade said:


> wat.



Yeeeah I'm stumped as well. Phil is a scummy person, but he isn't a terrorist.


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## Church2224 (Feb 2, 2016)

My 2 cents...

I have had little respect for Phil as a human being. Great frontman for a band but not some one I would like to meet. So when I heard about him doing this I just rolled my eyes and thought "Really? Not surprised, not one bit."

Does that make it excusable? Hell no. Phil was an idiot for acting like this. He gives much of the metal community a bad name. 

I am still going to listen to Pantera religiously though? Yes, Out of my love of Dime and Pantera.

Am I shocked, offended, or even surprised by this? Not really. I have seen and met a lot of racist idiots in my day to be mostly desensitized by what people say any more. So when something like this slips out I just go "Well, there is another idiot out there, best move on..."


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## HoneyNut (Feb 3, 2016)

jwade said:


> wat.





HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Yeeeah I'm stumped as well. Phil is a scummy person, but he isn't a terrorist.



Sorry, I meant to type:

ISIS are terrorists. But that does not mean every metalhead is a terrorist. Just because this ISIS lunatic group advocate such sheet, does not mean the metal community approve of it in any manner. 

Still, news like Phil's gestures don't make it any easy for a brown guy like myself to be defending my love for this 'white people's music.' It's pathetic specially when you have been performing their music at shows, defending the music socially, grew up with the lyrics. And now this? 

Like most cover bands starting out, we even performed Walk. No wonder I stopped subscribing to gods. 

I'll leave it at that as I don't want to open a can of worms in case you didn't get what I was implying wit my first post. Regardless I have the same opinion as the thread has been following up with:

Phil seems like he's a racist. He's a big name in the metal world, but that does not mean that he speaks for the whole genre. Same goes for ISIS or all those lunatic groups like the Boko Haram who kidnapped 200 school girls about 1-2 years ago. Remember that story? Yesterday it was confirmed that 86 of them have been burned alive. The witness wasn't too far away, and he heard the screams that went on for 4 hours. 

These people don't represent us.


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## jwade (Feb 3, 2016)

Comparing a drunken racist to terrorist groups is irresponsible, and a huge reach at that. He isn't a terrorist, and it's ridiculous to say so. Comparing this situation to those doesn't work, at all.


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## HoneyNut (Feb 3, 2016)

You are right. I absolutely agree. 

I am simply stating that the acts of a few do not define the whole group.  

There is a fundamentalist guy in the UK, don't know his name, who's been advocating hatred of others besides people who follow islam. Someone like that should be deported. 

Similarly, someone who is indirectly hinting at supremecy of sorts, is welcoming similar criticism. 

Shoudln't both of these guys be deported? For these xenophobic beliefs at a public gathering, I think yes.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Feb 3, 2016)

I don't think a citizen can be deported from his or her own country. Imprisoned, sure. Exiled, perhaps. Not deported, though. That's for non-citizens living or visiting a country.

...Not that I think being an idiot racist is reason enough for any of those punishments.


----------



## HoneyNut (Feb 3, 2016)

I know, Phil isn't exactly the definition of a hateful guy. For the most part he seems like he's just a mindless guy. But again, as I think to myself, so are some of these religious fanatics.


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## jwade (Feb 3, 2016)

You seem to be trying to turn the conversation in a very different direction. There are plenty of threads in Politics & Current Events that'll satisfy that urge for you.


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## HoneyNut (Feb 3, 2016)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> ...Not that I think being an idiot racist is reason enough for any of those punishments.



Firstly, thanks for clearing up the definitions.

And again, being an idiot fundamentalist is apparently not reason enough for that guy in the UK to get deported. Perhaps he was born there. 

It's sad. People like that have caused a lot of muslims a lot of headache. And the media did not help when that was happening, unfortunately. 

Phil's actions do not cause too much drama as that, since it's just within the context of a musical genre rather than a religious one I suppose. His views do not represent the genre. 

Imagine a scenario where the media blew it up as a defining view of the metal genre. In that case, others who aren't into metal, would think of metalheads as racists, which some people already do. 

I'm glad it's not blown out of proportions. 

(personally, i dont want any deportation, any exlie, any punishment, any torture, any killing ,murder, burning, pain upon anyone in the world - i am not political)


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## HoneyNut (Feb 3, 2016)

jwade said:


> You seem to be trying to turn the conversation in a very different direction. There are plenty of threads in Politics & Current Events that'll satisfy that urge for you.



thank you. Those guys there are very strong in their opinions. Fantastic discussions there. 

like my last post, i'll reiterate - i am not political.


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## Duosphere (Feb 3, 2016)

Jeesan said:


> i am not political)



There's no society without politics.
Everything is about politics especially a...................family.
Even not being political, you're being political with your choice.
You seriously should start being really political because bad people take "good people places who decided to not be political" in politics


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## HoneyNut (Feb 3, 2016)

plus, i would have appreciated not been told to go to a different forum publicly here. i wasn't trying to bother you, jwade. just pm me next time if something bothers you.


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## HoneyNut (Feb 3, 2016)

Duosphere said:


> There's no society without politics.
> Even not being political, you're being political with your choice.
> You seriously should start being really political because bad people take "good people places who decided to not be political" in politics



As Jwade mentioned, there is a different thread for that where we can share our political views. I am mostly an observer, and have generic choices, but let's not derail the thread further.


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## Duosphere (Feb 3, 2016)

I would have appreciated not been told to go to a different forum publicly here. I wasn't trying to bother you, Jeesan. just pm me next time if something bothers you.


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## BouhZik (Feb 3, 2016)

coreysMonster said:


> Also, when it's your friend and they do ....ty things when they're wasted, it's kinda hard to just drop them like a hot potato. It takes time for it to get to the point where you realise there's no helping them.
> 
> I don't think it's fair to put the blame on the other three when they fought against Phil's bull.... for years.
> .



Metallica did it with Mustaine. Like a hot potato. 

About Pantera, from what I know, They broke up because Phil was/is a junky, and because he leaved for other projects with Rex on his back. not because he's a racist. They didn't drop him after his "white pride speech" in the 90's. They never said anything about him mouthing "white power" when they were playing "a new level". 

He is tarnishing the Pantera name and hurt a lot of Pantera fan. In 2016, those things dont fly anymore. There is a huge reaction against him everywhere. 

Hell, four members of Emmure leaved because they suddenly realized that the vocalist Francky Palmeri is a massive asshole. Anselmo is on another lvl of crap. Who wants to be associated with him now ? What about the other Dawn members? IMO he is finished and will vanish fast from the music world. Like previously stated, his performance were terrible for some time now. So not a great loss


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 3, 2016)

Down cancelled for FortaRock 2016



> After the recent outbursts by singer Phil Anselmo during the Dimebash event in the US, his band Down is no longer welcome at FortaRock. Anselmo ended the show in the US with a Nazi salute and shouted "White power". There has been close consultation between all parties recent days, since we wanted to make a well informed decision. On that basis, the decision is made to cancel the act. We want to make clear that there is no room for racism or fascism on FortaRock.


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## Hogie34 (Feb 3, 2016)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Down cancelled for FortaRock 2016



Aaaaaaaand so it starts, the beginning of the end of Down. The part I don't agree with ( besides Phil, in every way possible) is how quick people are to dismiss educating and go straight to pitch forks and burning down barns. 

Right now, while the heat is on Phil, someone close needs to start the process of educating him on why it's wrong, why we are all equal etc. People can and do change. Sometimes not as fast as we'd like. 

But what will happen here is, Pepper , Jimmy, Pat and Bobby will be forced to pay for something that douche nozzle did. 

Now, Phil will continue on with his behavior and probably with an even bigger chip on his shoulder. 

This stuff is learned and can be un-learned. instead of destroying people's lives so quickly, we as a community ( not the metal community but as humans) need to educate and aid them in their change. Instead of condemning the behavior, we condemn the man and everyone around him. With our intolerance for the behavior , we should show patience for the person and try to help them on the right path. 

It's kind of like that family with the catering business who based on religious beliefs, didn't want to cater a gay wedding. Rather than the community trying to sit down and have dialogue with these people, who have probably lived with that belief system and were taught from birth to think that way, there was a public cry for destroying their business. It was successful and what did we accomplish other than putting a family out of business. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. We didn't teach tolerance. All we taught was keep your opinions to yourself , which changes nothing as far as equality. This stuff doesn't go away with silence and fear. Actually just the opposite.

Similar situation here. We don't like what Phil says and shows get cancelled, everyone involved with Down et al , suffers financially til finally , no more Down, guys are out of work and no one has learned a da** thing. 

Most of us were raised to believe everyone is equal, that prejudice based on race (read ethnicity), sexual orientation etc. is wrong , period. Believe it or not, some people weren't and based on what I've heard from him over the years about his childhood, I'm willing to bet money he heard the same stuff growing up (racially charged rhetoric) . This stuff was probably burned into his brain growing up. That doesn't go away over night.

Maybe I'm one of few or maybe I am the only one who feels this way. I just don't like seeing anyone's life destroyed when it didn't have to be. Yes, he is responsible for what comes out of that hole in his face, but with time, patience and dialogue, he can change. 

....and if he doesn't...then we burn his barn down!!!!


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## TedEH (Feb 3, 2016)

Thorerges said:


> this article was almost cringeworthy to read. The author makes it seem like metal is a social justice movement of some kind.



I have no idea how you got that from the article.  Lots of people are into metal because they feel like it's a very accepting, non-judgmental space, and those people would prefer to keep it that way. That's it. That's the whole deal. It's a music scene, not a social movement.


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## JohnIce (Feb 3, 2016)

Hogie34 said:


> ...
> It's kind of like that family with the catering business who based on religious beliefs, didn't want to cater a gay wedding. Rather than the community trying to sit down and have dialogue with these people, who have probably lived with that belief system and were taught from birth to think that way, there was a public cry for destroying their business. It was successful and what did we accomplish other than putting a family out of business. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. We didn't teach tolerance. All we taught was keep your opinions to yourself , which changes nothing as far as equality. This stuff doesn't go away with silence and fear. Actually just the opposite.



I don't know, quietly disliking someone without making their life more difficult for it sounds exactly like tolerance to me. If people did that then I'd say it's a win for everybody. I don't like 17-year olds who act rich, but I let it go.


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## coreysMonster (Feb 3, 2016)

JohnIce said:


> quietly disliking someone without making their life more difficult for it sounds exactly like tolerance to me


If people did that on their own, sure. Destroying people's lives for their opinions or beliefs is a terrible thing to do and doesn't create tolerance, it only amplifies hatred.


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## Andromalia (Feb 3, 2016)

Hogie34 said:


> Aaaaaaaand so it starts, the beginning of the end of Down. The part I don't agree with ( besides Phil, in every way possible) is how quick people are to dismiss educating and go straight to pitch forks and burning down barns.



You can't educate racist people. Them being racist _is _their education, it's too late when it's taken hold, since you can't really argue with reason against an irrational feeling.


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## Axayacatl (Feb 3, 2016)

In the states
There's a problem with race
Because of ignorant past burned fires
From evolution
We've been killing each other
I figure man should have it down to a science

No chance
Not for a minute
Not for a second
I won't be defensive
I'm straight out in my opinion
You'd better listen to a man who knows what he is saying
I've seen your side
You run and hide for the mere fact that you feel inferior
Be superior
And know your interior

[Pre]
Race, pride, prejudice
Black man, white man
No stand
Live in the past
We make it last
A hated mass
No solution
Mind pollution
For revolution

[Chorus]
So low behold my eyes
This land of fools will rise
No good
For no one

You blame oppression and play the role of criminals
To rape and burn show progress is minimal
White hoods and militants you know it's such a pity
Living, breathing
Violence in your city

If one man
Had one home
In one world
Held live alone without variety
Full of anxiety
No one to point at, question
Or even talk to -- in his private grave
No matter what color
He wouldn't be saved from hell
He dwells
A closed mind playing the part of prison cells

[Pre]

[Chorus]

- Phil Anselmo, No Good (Attack the Radical), early 1992. 

But who cares. I tried to rebrand Hitler's 'Mein Kampf' into a 'My Struggle with Weight Loss' memoir but once a racist always a racist....so.... same goes for Phil. 

And being openly racist at a time when our fellow black country men are having their constitutional rights constantly and grossly violated left and right (I think we'd treat aliens better)... well it is almost extra gross to be so vocally racist...

Racism is definitely a long term problem for people like Phil but (meagerly) in his defense, don't look over the devastating effects that a lifetime of excess drugs plus excess alcohol can have on a scared and not-very-educated white male mind from the south of the US. 

Axayacatl 2020 Union Presidency!


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## Axayacatl (Feb 3, 2016)

Andromalia said:


> You can't educate racist people. Them being racist _is _their education, it's too late when it's taken hold, since you can't really argue with reason against an irrational feeling.



Exactly! Neuro scientists understand that emotion is processed before reason.


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## Draceius (Feb 3, 2016)

Andromalia said:


> You can't educate racist people. Them being racist _is _their education, it's too late when it's taken hold, since you can't really argue with reason against an irrational feeling.



This is fundamentally false. You're basically saying that people cannot be changed, that their opinions cannot sway, that doubt doesn't exist etc. Yes it is very difficult to change these things in a person, especially if it's a deep seated prejudice or feeling, but to say they're beyond education or beyond changing is ridiculous. If that were the case there would be no point in protesting, in any movement or trying to change the world, because if you can't change people how can you change society at all, there would be no progress.


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## TedEH (Feb 3, 2016)

Hogie34 said:


> It's kind of like that family with the catering business who based on religious beliefs, didn't want to cater a gay wedding.



I've made a comment about things like this in the "unpopular opinions" thread once or twice, and I'm certain my opinion remains unpopular, but I can't get behind the idea of punishing someone for their beliefs, as wrong as they may be, for reasons similar to what you've mentioned. People are allowed to have whatever opinion they want, IMO- including "wrong" opinions, as long as nobody is being harmed by it. I don't think we should be trying to change peoples views, as opposed to making it clear when it is or isn't appropriate to express those views.

I know lots of people will disagree with me, but I think it was fully in the right of the caterer to be selective of their clientele based on their beliefs, even if those beliefs were wrong. Some feeling were hurt maybe, and some kind of backlash is inevitable, but destroying their business was wrong, as far as I care. 

That being said, what Phil did/said crosses an entirely different line. He knows he's on camera, he knows he's representative of certain groups or mindsets, he knows he's in a position to influence his audience, and choose to use/abuse that influence to spout hateful nonsense. Jokes or not, apology or none, being in a position of influence comes with responsibility, and he failed in that regard. The problem is not that he's racist, lots of people are racist (I'm not justifying or condoning it), the problem is that he didn't keep it to himself.

I think a few show cancellations and things like that are part of the inevitable backlash, but I think it would be wrong of us to bring out the pitchforks and try to actively destroy his career, along with the livelihoods of the other band members and whatever support people work with them. The scene has done it's job in making it clear that what happened was inappropriate, and I'm sure some shows will be cancelled for a while, but that should be it. If we insist on trying to teach tolerance, peace, etc., then lets do so by being an example.


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## asher (Feb 3, 2016)

Draceius said:


> This is fundamentally false. You're basically saying that people cannot be changed, that their opinions cannot sway, that doubt doesn't exist etc. Yes it is very difficult to change these things in a person, especially if it's a deep seated prejudice or feeling, but to say they're beyond education or beyond changing is ridiculous. If that were the case there would be no point in protesting, in any movement or trying to change the world, because if you can't change people how can you change society at all, there would be no progress.



Though. a lot of times, you don't protest to make that person change, you do it to show people who might be waffling or still thinking about it.

Aside from that, shaming is surprisingly or sadly effective in getting unacceptable behavior adjusted. Yes, "unacceptable" is relative to the group here, and can and has been used to "other" good things and good people by "bad" groups, but. C'mon.

I think having pretty reasonable doubt that Phil will rethink his positions is well founded, _by this point_. I'd love to be proved wrong (hey, he did reject the flag, right?) but I'm not expecting anything.


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## JohnIce (Feb 3, 2016)

coreysMonster said:


> If people did that on their own, sure. Destroying people's lives for their opinions or beliefs is a terrible thing to do and doesn't create tolerance, it only amplifies hatred.



I think it'll do both, most of the time. A lynch mob will create a deterrent for some and a martyr for others. But it'll make a lot of people think twice about whether their beef against gays is worth ruining their business over. And Merriam-Webster's definition of tolerance is just that: "willingness to accept feelings, habits, or beliefs that are different from your own". In other words, baking the damn cake for the gay couple and moving on. And I do believe that people being allowed to openly discriminate various groups of people is the main reason the sh*t continues in the first place.


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## tedtan (Feb 3, 2016)

asher said:


> Though. a lot of times, you don't protest to make that person change, you do it to show people who might be waffling or still thinking about it.



This hits the nail on the head. A lot of times when people are protesting or calling out an individual, it is not so much to get that individual to change as it is to set an example for everyone else as to what is and what is not acceptable.


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## Andromalia (Feb 4, 2016)

Draceius said:


> This is fundamentally false. You're basically saying that people cannot be changed, that their opinions cannot sway, that doubt doesn't exist etc. Yes it is very difficult to change these things in a person, especially if it's a deep seated prejudice or feeling, but to say they're beyond education or beyond changing is ridiculous. If that were the case there would be no point in protesting, in any movement or trying to change the world, because if you can't change people how can you change society at all, there would be no progress.



People obviously can change, but remember racism is not an opinion, it's a belief. You therefore just cannot argue a racist into admitting he's wrong. Just doesn't work.
There are, of course, ways to make even those beliefs change, but they usually include one of the following: 

-A huge emotional hit from an event in your life
-Sleep deprivation, torture and proper medication.

The first cannot really be engineered and I won't advocate the second because that is why _we _are not nazis.

Racism usually starts with "Dad, what's a Nword, I heard johnny saying that at school".


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## Aymara (Feb 4, 2016)

Andromalia said:


> There are, of course, ways to make even those beliefs change, ...



In the final period of high school times I had a lot of trouble with young Neo-Nazis ... one of their leaders was on my school.

I met him about 10 years later again and I thought "oh, no, not that a**hole again", but he said "hey, man, I want to apologize ... I was so wrong back in the high school days".

I thought I was dreaming, but he really regretted, so yes, even beliefs can change.


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## BouhZik (Feb 4, 2016)

The guy made the same apologies 20 years ago. He didn't change obviously. he's in his 50's I dont believe he's ever gonna change.


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## Aymara (Feb 4, 2016)

BouhZik said:


> The guy made the same apologies 20 years ago. He didn't change obviously. he's in his 50's I dont believe he's ever gonna change.



That's definitely an argument. So I guess, he maybe just keeps his mouth shut now to avoid further bans of his band Down, but even that is not very likely, right?


----------



## ArtDecade (Feb 4, 2016)

Down could be done. Pepper might use this as an excuse to head back to COC full time.


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## BouhZik (Feb 4, 2016)

Aymara said:


> That's definitely an argument. So I guess, he maybe just keeps his mouth shut now to avoid further bans of his band Down, but even that is not very likely, right?



I don't know. I did not hear any of the other Down members saying anything about it. What I'm sure about, is if they stay in the band and act like nothing happened, people could believe they share anselmo's thoughts.

Edit.
Maybe they just can do or say anything for now because of some contract or else. ... but atm they are the racist's bandmates and they didnt react. What do you think?


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## ArtDecade (Feb 4, 2016)

BouhZik said:


> I don't know. I did not hear any of the other Down members saying anything about it. What I'm sure about, is if they stay in the band and act like nothing happened, people could believe they share anselmo's thoughts.
> 
> Edit.
> Maybe they just can do or say anything for now because of some contract or else. ...



*Anselmo on the future of Down... * Philip Anselmo Suggests Down Bandmates Move On Without Him

To all this will concern,

Every citizen in this entire world has the unalienable right to live with dignity and respect without hate or oppression. And I mean this, with all of my crushed, yet, guilty heart. Its common knowledge that we can choose to either learn from our mistakes, or continue on a path of insensitivity and destruction. I am utterly responsible for the mistakes I have made, and can only give you my word to no longer do them in the present, through ACTION, not just mere words.

*My band mates are now experiencing the consequences of my behavior, and I now publicly apologize to them as well. Never in my entire lifetime would I drag them down with me, and Ive privately suggested to them that they move on without me.*

My biggest obstacle(s) are the over-indulging in the booze and blurting out spiteful, ignorant reductions of the human spirit itself. I will address these issues, head-on. Im repulsed by my own actions, and the self-loathing Im going through right now is justified by the hurt Ive caused. I realize we live in a society where apologies are NOT accepted easily, yet long for a day when they can be, but I also understand if Im shunned till I hit the dirt. From the bottom of my heart, and with all sincerity, I once again am truly sorry for the pain I have caused.

With truth, love, hope & respect-
Philip H. Anselmo​


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## downburst82 (Feb 4, 2016)

If nothing else it certainly seems like a sincerely worded apology, I can always forgive and give a person the chance to change and learn from there mistakes. At this point he has pretty much done what he needs to do to have a chance at turning himself and the situation around. Only time will tell really


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## synrgy (Feb 4, 2016)

Late to this party, as per usual.

Not that I have much to offer:

I'm disappointed, but completely un-surprised.


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## High Plains Drifter (Feb 4, 2016)

downburst82 said:


> If nothing else it certainly seems like a sincerely worded apology, I can always forgive and give a person the chance to change and learn from there mistakes. At this point he has pretty much done what he needs to do to have a chance at turning himself and the situation around. Only time will tell really



Whether or not he is sincere and to what degree his feelings/ views regarding hate, racism, tolerance, etc... is truly a part of who he is, is I guess the main part of all this BUT I also feel as if ( just from his words and demeanor) there are equally concerning issues playing into all of this. Namely... his problem with alcohol/ dependency issues. 

He really appears to be a lost soul of sorts and he quite obviously exhibits some of the same attributes of an addict that has just about hit rock-bottom. I really think that he needs some help, rehab, intervention, or something. Addressing those [seemingly apparent] issues doesn't simply cause someone to immediately change their viewpoints, but with certain aspects of rehabilitation/ recovery, it may be possible to bring about change on a much deeper level. I see a man that probably doesn't like himself and is [publicly] showing those signs. 

Long story short... The dude needs desperately to get some kind of help for some other issues. I think that if some other issues are addressed by him in a sincere and productive way, that he may also look at other things in this world differently.


----------



## piggins411 (Feb 4, 2016)

I will say that sounds like a much better apology. Still ....ty what he did, but at least he _seems_ more sincere now


----------



## ArtDecade (Feb 4, 2016)

I think it dawned on him that his actions and words impact others - in this case, his band-mates and friends. He is still a tool and half, but hopefully he will seek to be a better person in the future. Honestly, I don't have much faith in him, but stranger things have happened.


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## Aymara (Feb 4, 2016)

BouhZik said:


> What do you think?



I always saw Down as a side project of musicians from other bands, so maybe the best would be, that Down takes a break, Phil gets help with his alcohol and drug problems and hopefully finds a black wife 

Joking aside ... time might heal all wounds ... I hope. Therapy and love might heal Phil's hateful soul.


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## goldsteinat0r (Feb 4, 2016)

I am completely BLOWN AWAY by the number of people going to back for Anselmo. I too LOVE Pantera, Down, and to some degree, SJR, but I see NO WAY you can defend, explain, or ignore his actions and the underlying sentiments that drive them. This .... is not ok, especially in someplace like the metal community. Metal is the great equalizer, we have no room for racism, sexism, or bigotry of any kind. Face-smashing riffs have no color or ethnicity. 

Bottom line, if you are defending his behavior or wondering "what the big deal is".....you scare the .... out of me. 

His latest apology has the slightest hint of sincerity, but Jesus come on....dude is *47*. If you're doing that NOW when you're at your "most woke" imagine what he must have been like as a kid. He isn't changing and its going to be very hard for me to ever listen to any of his work the same way, if at all, ever again. I'm super bummed too because I was relatively unaware of this untilnow. I always wanted to think Phil was the kind of guy who would kick the crap out of someone stupid enough to be a Neo Nazi.

All of you go back and listen to "5 Minutes Alone" and "Walk" now and tell me how many times you go "Oh .... that is MESSED UP"


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## goldsteinat0r (Feb 4, 2016)

Kirk Windstein is Jewish though.....wonder how that works....


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 4, 2016)

Down&#39;s Hometown Concert Canceled After Philip Anselmo&#39;s Nazi Salute, &#39;White Power&#39; Comment - Blabbermouth.net


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## Aymara (Feb 4, 2016)

goldsteinat0r said:


> ... its going to be very hard for me to ever listen to any of his work the same way, if at all, ever again. I'm super bummed too because I was relatively unaware of this untilnow.



I have the same "problem", yes, though I only loved the first two Down albums and was never a Pantera fan.

All this might be the end of Down.


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## Chrisjd (Feb 4, 2016)

Bunch of friggin white guilt ridden hipsters in this thread.

Dude just wrote a sincere apology. Give it a chance to stick before you threaten to do something stupid like "never listen to his music again". I don't like what he said either, but lets not be so dramatic.

I am not even a huge Pantera fan, much less an Anselmo fan. But I have to wonder how many of you would be crying racism if it were a black guy yelling "black power" or something of that equivalent. My guess is not as many.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 4, 2016)

Chrisjd said:


> I am not even a huge Pantera fan, much less an Anselmo fan. But I have to wonder how many of you would be crying racism if it were a black guy yelling "black power" or something of that equivalent. My guess is not as many.









Someone already said that before here, and I'm not going over again why this is such an abysmally terrible strawman.

But to simplify it... You're ignoring decades of history as to why this argument is bull.....


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## Chrisjd (Feb 4, 2016)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Someone already said that before here, and I'm not going over again why this is such an abysmally terrible strawman.



strawman???

I am at work and didn't have time to read through 11+ pages of comments.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 4, 2016)

You're implying that we'd be all fine if a black person acted racist. 

Bull..... 

Plus, "black pride" =/= "white power"

Black pride comes from years of oppression.

White power comes from years of white supremacy. 

Context. Is. Key. Don't ignore decades of history just so you can defend him.


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## Chrisjd (Feb 4, 2016)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> But to simplify it... You're ignoring decades of history as to why this argument is bull.....



Meh, I know a lot of people who think like that. In other words, even in 2016, certain people apparently have a reason and right to spout their feelings/pride/power, but other's can't or shouldn't(and if they do we're all going to cry racism about it.)


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## Hogie34 (Feb 4, 2016)

Andromalia said:


> You can't educate racist people. Them being racist _is _their education, it's too late when it's taken hold, since you can't really argue with reason against an irrational feeling.



Hmmm, so by your logic, Flynn is full of .... he did say he was jumped by 15 black guys ( which seems to be the generic excuse for someone trying to justify their racist behavior) and was prejudiced towards black people. It took hold since he was calling them " N*'s" . Someone that's not racist doesn't go around calling people that.

Nah, I don't buy it. Anybody can change. 

But hey , mission accomplished right?!


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 4, 2016)

^Well, Phil had multiple chances to change... But he's done this .... for decades. Much longer than Robb.

If he can change, then that would make me happy as .... that he can see the error of his ways. If not, then well... he's a lost cause on the wrong side of history. 



Chrisjd said:


> Meh, I know a lot of people who think like that. In other words, even in 2016, certain people apparently have a reason and right to spout their feelings/pride/power, but other's can't or shouldn't(and if they do we're all going to cry racism about it.)



Are you ....ing kidding me? Are you trying to downplay the significance of someone yelling "white power?" 

Seriously, dude?


----------



## Chrisjd (Feb 4, 2016)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Are you ....ing kidding me? Are you trying to downplay the significance of someone yelling "white power?"
> 
> Seriously, dude?



I am not. I never said that. I said that people who don't look like me(or probably you) get a free pass to say what they want with far less repercussion or backlash. Regardless of the past, I don't think that's right.


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## Duosphere (Feb 4, 2016)

So a guy(or a bunch) with other color caused pain to somebody so that guy now thinks all people with that color are the same???!!!
That's dumbness.
Like I said people make their choices, they choose to be dumb so they make dumb choices.
Yes people can change but not because others want them to change but because they want to change.How do you know they really changed(or at least fake it well)?
If they never repeat that behavior and even speaks/fights against it.
That's it.
It doesn't matter if an excuse is honesty (or not) if people keep doing the same stuff over and over.
I don't buy anything people SAY, I buy..................ACTS(behavior).


----------



## stevexc (Feb 4, 2016)

Chrisjd said:


> I am not. I never said that. I said that people who don't look like me(or probably you) get a free pass to say what they want with far less repercussion or backlash. Regardless of the past, I don't think that's right.



You're still making the assumption that "black power" and "white power" mean the same thing and therefore SHOULD get the same amount of backlash. That is incorrect. The "white power" slogan is used to represent the idea that everyone who is not white is lesser - that is, that being "non-white" is a bad thing. The "black power" slogan is used to support black people (specifically in a time where black peoples rights were suppressed) - that is, being black is a good thing.

If the "black power" slogan was ever used primarily to promote "black supremacy" the way "white power" was you'd have a valid argument, but it wasn't.

You can't equate the two. They have entirely different meanings despite sounding similar.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 4, 2016)

The fact some folks don't understand the difference between the phrase "white power" and "black pride/power" is absolutely revolting. It's either pure stupidity or willful ignorance. 

As I painfully had to explain before, the term "white power", especially when accompanied by the Hitlergruß [three guesses where the first part of that word comes from ] doesn&#8217;t mean "power and pride for all people with pale skin". It means "superiority of the ideal white race" which excludes pretty much everyone but a small cross-section of white protestants. 

It doesn't matter how pale your skin is, if someone says that, and you aren't a militant white protestant, they hate you.


----------



## Chrisjd (Feb 4, 2016)

stevexc said:


> You're still making the assumption that "black power" and "white power" mean the same thing and therefore SHOULD get the same amount of backlash. That is incorrect. The "white power" slogan is used to represent the idea that everyone who is not white is lesser - that is, that being "non-white" is a bad thing. The "black power" slogan is used to support black people (specifically in a time where black peoples rights were suppressed) - that is, being black is a good thing.
> 
> If the "black power" slogan was ever used primarily to promote "black supremacy" the way "white power" was you'd have a valid argument, but it wasn't.
> 
> You can't equate the two. They have entirely different meanings despite sounding similar.



Is that how it always is though? In an age where whiteness is often criticized by non white people(and even by white liberals), perhaps Phil was simply trying to convey that he's proud of being white and that there's nothing wrong with it. 

How do you know that the angry rioters in Ferguson and Baltimore screaming "black power" and "fry the pigs like bacon"(when referring to white cops) didn't have a hateful and violent will towards white people?

You can't always assign motives to people's words, even if in this case "white power" was a hateful and racist slogan from times of past.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 4, 2016)

Chrisjd said:


> perhaps Phil was simply trying to convey that he's proud of being white and that there's nothing wrong with it.



While doing the Hitler salute?

Yeah, I'm going to assume that wasn't his intention.


----------



## coreysMonster (Feb 4, 2016)

ArtDecade said:


> *Anselmo on the future of Down... * Philip Anselmo Suggests Down Bandmates Move On Without Him


This seems like a real apology, and him saying his band move on without him suggests that he's not just saying it to get people off his back. If he realises and knows that what he said was wrong and WHY it was wrong, then he's not a lost cause. I don't know if a real Neo-Nazi that truly believed in White Power would be so quick to apologize. He needs to take some time off, away from the drugs and booze and have a long, hard soul-searching about what he did, why he did it, and where his heart is, and where he wants it to be.

"People must learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love, for love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite."

And if he doesn't change, well, then I guess everybody loses and Pantera's legacy will be tainted forever.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 4, 2016)

Dude, "from times of the past"? 

People shout that crap holding giant swastikas on banners........today. Like in 2016. In America. 

The meaning didn't change magically. It's still a term used by both Neo-Nazi groups and the KKK.


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## Chrisjd (Feb 4, 2016)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> While doing the Hitler salute?
> 
> Yeah, I'm going to assume that wasn't his intention.



Yeah, you might be right. Who knows for sure though. Phil is a bit of an idiot so I wouldn't be surprised if that was his drunken intention.


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## Rawkmann (Feb 4, 2016)

Just when I thought this thread was nearly over...


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## Chrisjd (Feb 4, 2016)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Dude, "from times of the past"?
> 
> People shout that crap holding giant swastikas on banners........today. Like in 2016. In America.
> 
> The meaning didn't change magically. It's still a term used by both Neo-Nazi groups and the KKK.



I don't know what you're really talking about. I live in a city with well over a million people and stay very current with news from many sources, and I never see or hear of these things.

If this was happening regularly, the media would be eating it up and shoving it down our throats.


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## tedtan (Feb 4, 2016)

Chrisjd said:


> I don't know what you're really talking about. I live in a city with well over a million people and stay very current with news from many sources, and I never see or hear of these things.
> 
> If this was happening regularly, the media would be eating it up and shoving it down our throats.


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## Rawkmann (Feb 4, 2016)

Chrisjd said:


> You can't always assign motives to people's words, even if in this case "white power" was a hateful and racist slogan from times of past.



I've never, past or present, ever heard the phrase "White Power" used in a positive context, just sayin.


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## Chrisjd (Feb 4, 2016)

tedtan said:


>



Why the facepalm? I am not denying these things HAVE happened, but there's not some regular, rampant, racially charged hate march making its way across the nation as the one poster apparently has you convinced of.

You guys are so sensational. It's kind of funny.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 4, 2016)

I don't know, I finding the denial of "white power" being a racist slogan to be the funniest thing here, although a lot more depressing.


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## Chrisjd (Feb 4, 2016)

Rawkmann said:


> I've never, past or present, ever heard the phrase "White Power" used in a positive context, just sayin.



That's good! Frankly, I've never heard it said in person. 

I have heard a lot of nasty racial hate spewed by the local minneapolis black lives matter group, though. I am sure you guys would give them a pass....


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## Duosphere (Feb 4, 2016)

Chrisjd said:


> Why the facepalm? I am not denying these things HAVE happened, but there's not some regular, rampant, racially charged hate march making its way across the nation as the one poster apparently has you convinced of.
> 
> You guys are so sensational. It's kind of funny.



Maybe not in your street but it's been happening for a long time all over the world and it's getting bigger.You need to read more


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 4, 2016)

Chrisjd said:


> I don't know what you're really talking about. I live in a city with well over a million people and stay very current with news from many sources, and I never see or hear of these things.
> 
> If this was happening regularly, the media would be eating it up and shoving it down our throats.



There's burying your head in the sand and then there's that. 

If you take a couple seconds to look on Google you'll see news coverage by CNN, Fox, NYT, USA Today, and various other news media.


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## Chrisjd (Feb 4, 2016)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I don't know, I finding the denial of "white power" being a racist slogan to be the funniest thing here, although a lot more depressing.



You're a ....ing moron if that's what you think, then. Because I never said it couldn't be a racist slogan. In fact, I said earlier that its origin is racist hate.

I am going to assume that you just didn't read my earlier post.


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## tedtan (Feb 4, 2016)

It happens all the time, though. You may not see it, but I've seen news reports of a black man dragged to death behind a truck because he was black (google Vidor Texas) gays being killed in high school because they're gay, etc. 

We even had a SSO member upload a pic of themselves at a KKK rally a year or two back, right here on these forums.

This .... doesn't just stop because we want it to or because we bury our heads in the sand like ostriches.


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## Chrisjd (Feb 4, 2016)

MaxOfMetal said:


> There's burying your head in the sand and then there's that.
> 
> If you take a couple seconds to look on Google you'll see news coverage by CNN, Fox, NYT, USA Today, and various other news media.



I read them all every day. Haven't seen any recently.


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## jwade (Feb 4, 2016)

Even up here in Canada, we have .... like the Aryan Nation assholes and other various neo-nazi/hate groups, and they regularly show up and protest everything. Gays, blacks, it doesn't matter, there are pieces of garbage everywhere that hate people for no good reason, and the fact that you don't see it on the nightly news doesn't mean it isn't out there. It's more likely that your mainstream media outlets are more concerned with reporting non-white criminals/terrorists or celebrity-related bs.


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## coreysMonster (Feb 4, 2016)

I moved here from Europe a year ago and even across the pond we hear about White Power nonsense happening in the US from time to time (not that it doesn't happen over there, because it does). Saying it doesn't happen anymore is just ridiculous.


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## ArtDecade (Feb 4, 2016)

Now do you see why I was asking about how to *Ignore* members, MaxOfMetal?


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 4, 2016)

Don't worry, he's going to be easy to ignore now.


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## Triple-J (Feb 4, 2016)

goldsteinat0r said:


> I am completely BLOWN AWAY by the number of people going to back for Anselmo. I too LOVE Pantera, Down, and to some degree, SJR, but I see NO WAY you can defend, explain, or ignore his actions and the underlying sentiments that drive them. This .... is not ok, especially in someplace like the metal community. Metal is the great equalizer, we have no room for racism, sexism, or bigotry of any kind. Face-smashing riffs have no color or ethnicity.
> 
> Bottom line, if you are defending his behavior or wondering "what the big deal is".....you scare the .... out of me.
> 
> ...



I hate to admit it but I'm not surprised by the people backing Phil because he's one of those people who's built up a following of hero worshippers who're hooked on his chest beating machismo they view him like he's a super hero or some kind of cross between Travis Bickle and Stone Cold Steve Austin and it's this cult of personality that keeps them from seeing sense.
The other aspect at play here is that a lot of times when events concerning race/gender/etc happen the deaf earred cynics chime in and clog up the conversation by droning on about it all being politically correct nonsense and how we should all grow up and quit being offended 24/7 because the liberal media is shoving their agenda down our throats etc etc.

Having said that though I've read through the thread here and a few other discussions about it online and it seems like people are actually thinking about Phil's actions and what this all means for the metal community instead of it devolving into the usual tribalistic internet rage and that's something which gives me a bit of hope.


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## TedEH (Feb 4, 2016)

While I agree with those who are saying that nobody should be apologetic about Phil's behavior, I kind of understand the side that isn't taking it seriously.... almost.

I've got at least two friends (maybe "friends of friends" is a better way to put it), whose sense of humor is less a sense of humor and more just a lack of sensitivity. At first I thought they had just slipped up and said some things they didn't mean, but even after explaining why the things they said were completely inappropriate in any setting, they continued on like nothing happened, and even defended their "right" to be offensive. It took me a while to understand that they honestly completely believed that if you're joking then it doesn't count- that you can't get offended if "it was just a joke". Anything done or said that "isn't serious" is justified in the name of "just kidding". One of them even argued with me until he was blue in the face that racism didn't count if you're insulting your own race..... 

What I'm getting at is not that it's justified in any way- but the people who have this kind of sense of humor *honestly don't understand* what they're doing. Edit: and sometimes no amount of "education" (I hate that word in this context) is going to do anything.


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## Duosphere (Feb 4, 2016)

TedEH said:


> What I'm getting at is not that it's justified in any way- but the people who have this kind of sense of humor *honestly don't understand* what they're doing.



Oh, they do.
But as long as it doesn't happen to them, they pretend they don't.


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## Five Ten (Feb 4, 2016)

I had some whole big thing typed up explaining the difference between white pride/power and black pride/power, but I think most of you already know the difference, and it'd just rub the others the wrong way and further bludgeon an already beaten to death horse.

I wasn't going to post anything at all, but I really just wanted to say kudos to the moderator/moderators for allowing a delicate discussion such as this to go on, and knowing when a line has been crossed and taking action.


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## Smoked Porter (Feb 4, 2016)

TedEH said:


> I've got at least two friends (maybe "friends of friends" is a better way to put it), whose sense of humor is less a sense of humor and more just a lack of sensitivity.
> ....
> What I'm getting at is not that it's justified in any way- but the people who have this kind of sense of humor *honestly don't understand* what they're doing. Edit: and sometimes no amount of "education" (I hate that word in this context) is going to do anything.





Duosphere said:


> Oh, they do.
> But as long as it doesn't happen to them, they pretend they don't.



 I really think some of them don't. I've also had a couple of the sort of friends/acquaintances that TedEH mentioned. As he said, not justified, but it happens.


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## Hogie34 (Feb 5, 2016)

Chris Kontos pretty much sums up my thoughts on the incident and both Anselmo and Flynn at this point . 

Ex Machine Head Drummer Says Robb Flynn And Philip Anselmo Are Both &#39;Dumbass Self Centered Blowhards&#39; - Blabbermouth.net

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Ex-MACHINE HEAD Drummer Says ROBB FLYNN And PHILIP ANSELMO Are Both 'Dumbass Self-Centered Blowhards'
Machine Head, "Take My Scars"
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Former MACHINE HEAD drummer Chris Kontos has slammed Robb Flynn and Philip Anselmo in the aftermath of last week's incident when the ex-PANTERA singer made a "white power" gesture onstage at a concert.

Anselmo performed the PANTERA classic "Walk" at the January 22 "Dimebash" event at the Lucky Strike Live in Hollywood, California in honor of his former bandmate, late PANTERA guitarist "Dimebag" Darrell Abbott. As he left the stage, he made a Nazi-style salute. He appeared to say "white power" as he made the gesture, but he later claimed he was referring to drinking white wine as part of an "inside joke." Anselmo has since released a video message, saying that he "deserves completely" the "heat" that he has been getting over his actions and claiming to be "a thousand percent apologetic to anyone that took offense to what [he] said."


Several notable musicians have come out and criticized Anselmo for his actions, including Flynn, who uploaded an eleven-minute video response to the incident in which he called Anselmo a "big bully" and described Philip's behavior as "....ing wrong."

Now Kontos has stepped forward to offer his opinion on the matter, saying that both Flynn and Anselmo are "....ing dumbass self-centered blowhards" who "seem to be full of crap."

In a public post on his Facebook page, Kontos writes (slightly edited for clarity): "Sorry, Phil, but this is the end. I knew I saw this photo of you backstage with the white wine in your hands before you went on stage at Dimebash and processed to shout 'White Power' at the top of your shattered voice and gave the Nazi salute TWICE!. Your stupidity and racism once again has collided in your mouth and then into the world via your microphone. I knew I saw this picture with the wine...when I read your flippant and weak statement about how it was a joke about drinking white wine backstage I was ....ing disgusted and dismayed at your stupidity on levels I have no words for. I bet you DID mean it as a joke...because you are flat-out dumb-as-a-stump racist, I bet this would be funny to you.

"There is the 'White Power Wine' right there in your hands. People are saying (Robb Flynn) that NO white wine was backstage at Dimebash...well, there it is. Not Beck's beer... I saw this photo the day of the show...and thought to myself how nice to see you and Rita [Haney, Dimebag's longtime girlfriend and one of the Dimebash organizers] toasting Dime ('the Pink beard in the sky,' as it said in the caption below it) before the show. Well, after seeing the vid clip of your dumb ass and then reading your statement, I remembered the photo. Still, you have to be crazy or just so out of touch with the world and are completely racist to think that a joke would be fun OR a way to honor Dime... or is there more to the story we just don't know about PANTERA and how the band really feels about racism?

"Then I watched Robb Flynn's response to the whole thing...and I must say he was well spoken and shared true feelings. He said that he had spoken with Phil that night and that Phil said to him 'I hated the 'n*gger era' of MACHINE HEAD...every minute of it...with that look' and Robb said that he laughed In Phil's face... really?

"Now, if Phil had said that .... to me before I was to go back him musically... no ....ing way would I get on stage and perform with the guy. I'll tell you that much. Phil may be big and badass with his mits and all...but I would have had a ....ing straightener with Phil right then and there, trust every bit of 6' 227 lbs of jiu-jitsu drum-crushing BMX smashing me on that... Bullies don't faze me...

"That brings me to this point... It also made me think about my post about the MACHINE HEAD stage dressing these days... and how Nuremberg Nazi Rally it really is.

"Words and imagery are very strong forces. The messages you send or speak make a huge impact on the world. I was not going to say anything, but then I felt a strong feeling of duty to make a statement as I have stood AGAINST racists and nationalist hate movements my whole adult life. These two guys leave me baffled as they both seem to be full of crap.

"I respect Robb for admitting using the word n*gger... but he is not thinking or maybe just too stupid himself to think about the truly anti-Semitic and Nazi messages his stage show sends to world and Jews as well as Holocaust survivors and their families. I find the whole thing very disturbing and I have to question why, if Robb knew about how Phil is and his views on race and the comments made before going on stage, then why he would still play up there.... Was playing with Dave [Grohl] and Robert [Trujillo] that big a deal that you would turn a blind eye to the fact you know this info and insight on Phil so you could get in on some kind of 'I'm big like these guys too' kind of thing?

"I think you are an opportunist and are full of .....

"I'm of mud race and proud of it.

"I think that we ALL do better when we all do BETTER in this life.

"So sorry but you both are ....ing dumbass self-centered blowhards.... both of you have your foot in your mouth right now in my book."

Kontos played on MACHINE HEAD's debut album, 1994's "Burn My Eyes", before being replaced by Dave McClain.



Read more at Ex Machine Head Drummer Says Robb Flynn And Philip Anselmo Are Both &#39;Dumbass Self Centered Blowhards&#39; - Blabbermouth.net


----------



## lemeker (Feb 5, 2016)

TedEH said:


> While I agree with those who are saying that nobody should be apologetic about Phil's behavior, I kind of understand the side that isn't taking it seriously.... almost.
> 
> I've got at least two friends (maybe "friends of friends" is a better way to put it), whose sense of humor is less a sense of humor and more just a lack of sensitivity. At first I thought they had just slipped up and said some things they didn't mean, but even after explaining why the things they said were completely inappropriate in any setting, they continued on like nothing happened, and even defended their "right" to be offensive. It took me a while to understand that they honestly completely believed that if you're joking then it doesn't count- that you can't get offended if "it was just a joke". Anything done or said that "isn't serious" is justified in the name of "just kidding". One of them even argued with me until he was blue in the face that racism didn't count if you're insulting your own race.....
> 
> What I'm getting at is not that it's justified in any way- but the people who have this kind of sense of humor *honestly don't understand* what they're doing. Edit: and sometimes no amount of "education" (I hate that word in this context) is going to do anything.




I can kind of relate to this. I have a really strange and almost sick sense of humor, and it takes a lot to really offend me. I've joked about things that have turned some heads and made people say "wtf is wrong with you?". I also believe "true comedy" is supposed to blur some lines.

That being said, white power and neo nazi garbage, and any other hate speech in my opinion isn't anything to joke about, and still think what happened with Phil is abhorrent, uncalled for and most certainly not funny at all.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 5, 2016)

TedEH said:


> What I'm getting at is not that it's justified in any way- but the people who have this kind of sense of humor *honestly don't understand* what they're doing. Edit: and sometimes no amount of "education" (I hate that word in this context) is going to do anything.



It's young men with poor social skills who feel special because they're "edgy". 

It's like they enjoyed the comedy of Lenny Bruce, George Carlin, Louis CK, etc. and can't seem to grasp any of the wit, satire, sarcasm, and social commentary, but only the vulgarities. 

Good humor can be vulgar and offensive but that's now what makes it funny. 

While I can understand that folks like that are typically not bright enough to understand what they're going on about it doesn't mean that they get a pass. The fact that they've more than likely been called out for what they've said in the past and still keep being "edgy" shows that they obviously just don't get it and it's up to society, those around them, to illustrate why they're awful, stupid people.


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## Aymara (Feb 5, 2016)

coreysMonster said:


> I don't know if a real Neo-Nazi that truly believed in White Power would be so quick to apologize.



You can count on it, he surely would apologize as soon as he notices, that he will loose his job, if he won't apologize.

And that's what makes me feel sceptic about Phil. If he really was a racist for over 20 years, it's very unlikely, that he changes his opinion and beliefs in just a few days only because of the Metal community's reactions.

No, so far it's all about money ... folks, don't forget, that he has it's own record label and he risks, that no VIP will collaborate with him any longer!

As I said before ... that man urgently needs therapy.


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## TedEH (Feb 5, 2016)

MaxOfMetal said:


> doesn't mean that they get a pass.



Agreed.



> people who have this kind of sense of humor honestly don't understand what they're doing.





> Oh, they do.
> But as long as it doesn't happen to them, they pretend they don't.





> I really think some of them don't.



That's kind of the point I meant to make. There's lots of reason to want to believe that everyone "gets it" and is being malicious or just being a d**k for it's own sake, but after a while you start realizing that some of them really don't get it. It's not just a "oh sorry, didn't realize I made a mistake" kind of misunderstanding- I mean flat out unable to comprehend the context they're living and speaking within. Sometimes when people look like they're playing dumb, they aren't playing. Edit: Which can be scary in it's own right.


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## Chokey Chicken (Feb 5, 2016)

Aymara said:


> You can count on it, he surely would apologize as soon as he notices, that he will loose his job, if he won't apologize.
> 
> And that's what makes me feel sceptic about Phil. If he really was a racist for over 20 years, it's very unlikely, that he changes his opinion and beliefs in just a few days only because of the Metal community's reactions.



You are correct. People would absolutely be willing to lie and wear a mask if it means keeping their cozy job/income. I know I, working in retail, have had to swallow my pride and smile/nod/agree with people who were in the midst of a racial rant. (I'm non-white.) I've also personally known white supremecists who held back or appologized for something they weren't really sorry for. (I'm talking members of outwardly racist organizations, full sized Nazi flags in their rooms, Hitler youth knives and copies of mein kompf kind of white supremecists. They don't just spit hate, they live and act upon it.)

They're dumb, but they're not stupid, if that makes sense. They know how to say what others want to get ahead.


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## Aymara (Feb 5, 2016)

Chokey Chicken said:


> They're dumb, but they're not stupid, if that makes sense.



Sure, it makes sense, because there are two kinds of intelligence, a social one and a natural science one, the later being the one usually measured in IQ tests.

Some of the German Nazi elite had a pretty high "classical" IQ, but they were still in the stone age regarding their social intelligence.


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## feraledge (Feb 5, 2016)

Aymara said:


> Some of the German Nazi elite had a pretty high "classical" IQ, but they were still in the stone age regarding their social intelligence.



I get your point here, but they were certainly in the Modern age regarding their thinking. Hunter gatherers lived in egalitarian societies. /Digression.


I trust that Phil is absolutely regretting that he did this.... on camera.


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## jwade (Feb 5, 2016)

All anger at what he did aside, it's also a really sad way to see a career die.


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## neurosis (Feb 5, 2016)

Late to the thread as always. Good points have been raised. I think the blowout is definitely justified.

I was talking to a friend the other day and we agreed that justified or not justified the rumors of the nineties had been now confirmed. Last year is definitely a good way to measure the public temperature on racial issues. With the whole confederate flag discussion and the massacre a new status quo was defined. It wasn't ok to express racism before but there wasn't an evident climate of condemnation. After 2015 there definitely is. 

Add to that the ubiquitous presence of audiovisuals and the huge networks of immediate communication and even if this was a slip you have a huge explosion, especially with a person that was rumored to be racist in the first place and also doesn't seem to be the most likable dude. 

I don't really thing this dude is a racist. I do subscribe to the theory that he is just not there yet with his mind. I often wondered if it was just the booze and the drugs that made him like this but I believe those are just symptoms. I think he is a self-loathing train wreck and that he overcompensates physically and when the substances kick in verbally for all his insecurities and self hatred. I told my friend that being a racist and knowing what he said or lacking the insight (or not being mature enough) to understand the gravity of such symbolism in the current context are equally tragic. I mean, either way he loses because you can argue he didn't mean it but then he's just plain stupid. And you know... unfortunately I think the better scenario is that he really didn't mean it, like he didn't mean so many other things in his life. 

The way I see it Phil gave up on anything other than music a long time ago and that's how he's been crawling from point A to B for a long time. I totally agree that he needs to get checked. Just when it looked like he was coming off the ....storm he got himself into he starts another one. 

Anyway, back on topic. What he said was intolerable. Just trying to understand what's up with the dude.


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## Aymara (Feb 5, 2016)

feraledge said:


> but they were certainly in the Modern age regarding their thinking.



They tried but failed ... due to low social intelligence they misinterpreted Darwin's theories. But nevertheless they had some pretty good scientists in the weapon development field ... not that astonishing, because here we are back to "natural" science.


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## TedEH (Feb 5, 2016)

neurosis said:


> I don't really thing this dude is a racist.



I kinda get what you're trying to say with your post... but not realizing you're racist doesn't make you not-racist. It just makes you ignorant of your racism. (Not you as in YOU, but whoever.)
Edit: Not 100% that's what you meant to say, but whatever


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## Petar Bogdanov (Feb 5, 2016)

I can't believe how butthurt people are about someone important being a racist. Being a racist, in itself is not even a crime. It's just an unpopular belief. Speeding is more of a crime than being a racist is. 

Now, inciting violence is a crime. Inciting discrimination is a crime. But Phil didn't do that. He's a wreck, why don't we just move on?


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## neurosis (Feb 5, 2016)

TedEH said:


> I kinda get what you're trying to say with your post... but not realizing you're racist doesn't make you not-racist. It just makes you ignorant of your racism. (Not you as in YOU, but whoever.)
> Edit: Not 100% that's what you meant to say, but whatever



 Yes that's what I was getting at. I still have trouble being succinct in English.


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## asmegin_slayer (Feb 5, 2016)

I remember a time when metalheads were called "satanists" because of the style of music they play or listen.

Whatever happened to those times? 

Before this story broke out I never associated metal music to have a racists stigma attached to it.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 5, 2016)

Petar Bogdanov said:


> I can't believe how butthurt people are about someone important being a racist. Being a racist, in itself is not even a crime. It's just an unpopular belief. Speeding is more of a crime than being a racist is.
> 
> Now, inciting violence is a crime. Inciting discrimination is a crime. But Phil didn't do that. He's a wreck, why don't we just move on?



Oh look, this post again.


----------



## TedEH (Feb 5, 2016)

You said it in your own question:



Petar Bogdanov said:


> someone important



It's not a matter of being upset that he's racist, lots of people are racist. But he's _influential_- a role model- and putting his views out there at times when he knows (or should know) that malleable minds are paying attention. Even if it's not intentional or malicious, it's irresponsible. Anyone who defends him or agrees that it was "just a joke" is seeing him as an example and could use that example to justify their own actions. "Someone famous can say racist things and get away with it, so I can too, right?"

To someone know knows the difference, it sounds ridiculous on the face of it- but not everyone knows the difference. Someone somewhere is going to see Phil Anselmo, the Role Model, and think that all of the sudden Nazism is appropriate to mimic, because it'll make them feel more like their hero.


----------



## Hogie34 (Feb 5, 2016)

TedEH said:


> You said it in your own question:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Totally on the same page, but I just had to laugh at the role model part. Anyone who finds Anselmo their idol, has much bigger problems than racism lmfao. " when I grow up, I wanna be a washed up, smack addict with no front teeth , a beer gut and a sh** live voice ( ok, the voice part is only the last ten years or so).


----------



## TedEH (Feb 5, 2016)

Hogie34 said:


> Totally on the same page, but I just had to laugh at the role model part.



I've seen people pick worse role models.  

Edit:
This thread is such a downer . I'd much rather focus less on how idiots are a thing, and more on how we should be kinda proud that "the scene" did the right thing by meaningfully distancing themselves from the whole deal... for the most part.


----------



## Andromalia (Feb 5, 2016)

Petar Bogdanov said:


> I can't believe how butthurt people are about someone important being a racist. Being a racist, in itself is not even a crime.?



Try pulling that white power stuff in public in France and you endup in jail.


----------



## Duosphere (Feb 5, 2016)

Just watch at 0.11 seconds


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 5, 2016)

Andromalia said:


> Try pulling that white power stuff in public in France and you endup in jail.



On top of that....


----------



## JohnIce (Feb 5, 2016)

Petar Bogdanov said:


> I can't believe how butthurt people are about someone important being a racist. Being a racist, in itself is not even a crime. It's just an unpopular belief. Speeding is more of a crime than being a racist is.
> 
> Now, inciting violence is a crime. Inciting discrimination is a crime. But Phil didn't do that. He's a wreck, why don't we just move on?



Gee, good question. I wonder if there's a thread on this site with oh let's say 13 pages where someone might've hidden an answer to that for you. Go hunt! Let us know if you find such a thread, would be a shame if all those pages were just accidentally skipped, you know.


----------



## Duosphere (Feb 5, 2016)

Petar Bogdanov said:


> Being a racist, in itself is not even a crime.




You obviously don't know but different countries follow different laws, surprised?
In my country racism is a crime and no lawyer/money could take you out of prison if you are guilty.


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## goldsteinat0r (Feb 5, 2016)

Petar Bogdanov said:


> I can't believe how butthurt people are about someone important being a racist. Being a racist, in itself is not even a crime. It's just an unpopular belief. Speeding is more of a crime than being a racist is.
> 
> Now, inciting violence is a crime. Inciting discrimination is a crime. But Phil didn't do that. He's a wreck, why don't we just move on?



Man, I will TELL you why.

This man is a public figure who, in many ways, represents the metal community, of which most if not all of us are a part. We are a diverse bunch, and that is what makes us so great. 

Giving this man a pass for non-ironically invoking one of the single most recognizable and incendiary symbols of hatred in the developed world, one which was been associated with GENOCIDE to the tune of 11-12 million people is NOT AN F-WORDING OPTION. This totally ignores his extensive history of such behavior. Doing it ONCE is not ok, he's been doing this .... since the 1990s. 

Why do we keep having to explain this? 

There is no science to support "racial" discrimination. "Race" is a made up thing by humans to describe slight superficial differences between humans who have lived different regions of the world for long periods of time. People from places like Africa and India are darker pigmented due to the climate and the prevalence of sunshine in those regions. Nordic peoples are pale as death for the opposite reason. Oh and "white" people actually are more susceptible to skin cancer. Whats "superior" about that? 

There is a human race, we are all different ethnicities....if you want to split hairs. But even then, there is virtually NO real difference between me and my chubby Eastern-European-descended ass and a member of an un-contacted tribe in South America. We are all. The. Same.

So the idea of "White Supremacy" is basically rooted in nothing. Not only that, but its a hateful, murderous ideology that people use as justification for ending other people's lives. White Supremacists are not nice people, broseph. This idiocy has to be KILLED WITH FIRE through education and being better humans to each other, even if it takes 200 years. Letting is slide only allows it to fester, and soon you'll see a lot more of these scumbags coming out of the woodwork....which might not actually be bad. Easier to spot, then.

Do people change? I honestly don't think Phil is a full bore Neo Nazi. He desperately seeks approval, and something tells me he thought the crowd would approve. Also he was probably obliterated.

On the other hand, I've heard a lot of superficial "I can't believe he did that, what an idiot" comments. Basically "sure, be a neo-nazi but keep it under wraps, person-who-I-love." My reaction was more "How the hell can this guy actually bring himself to HAVE those beliefs in this day and age, and believe them enough to invoke them ON STAGE and ON CAMERA." 

.......and believe me I LOVE this dude as an artist. 

Man, sorry that got kinda heated.

TLDR: If you're not horrified by this I am a little scared of you. -Jewish Guy


----------



## Duosphere (Feb 5, 2016)

goldsteinat0r said:


> There is a human race, we are all different ethnicities....if you want to split hairs. But even then, there is virtually NO real difference between me and my chubby Eastern-European-descended ass and a member of an un-contacted tribe in South America. We are all. The. Same.



I always said that and I noticed some pretended they couln't understand it because of their own needs, need of hating something, need of feeling strong, need of God knows what.The world is in white man hands but look, over half population has no food, medicines, houses.................life, so I guess whoever claims white is better really can't see a damn thing in front of his eyes.Character is what matters not colors.


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## Hogie34 (Feb 5, 2016)

I think we should end this thread with this 

http://youtu.be/F2AitTPI5U0


----------



## Thorerges (Feb 5, 2016)

Down&#39;s Hometown Concert Canceled After Philip Anselmo&#39;s Nazi Salute, &#39;White Power&#39; Comment - Blabbermouth.net

Well, another show cancelled. I honestly thought this would pass eventually, good that people called this guy out for it - he's gotten too many free passes for all the dumb .... that he's done. 

I wonder whats next for Mr. Anselmo.


----------



## Aymara (Feb 6, 2016)

goldsteinat0r said:


> This idiocy has to be KILLED WITH FIRE through education and being better humans to each other, even if it takes 200 years.



You're absolutely right, except the fact, that we don't have 200 years time, but maybe only 20 left.

Why? Well, because the whole mankind needs to unite to solve the real problems of planet earth like e.g. the ozone hole problem. If we aren't able to, mankind will vanish in less than 200 years and not only mankind, but several other species too.

But don't worry, the world will heal itself and we will make room for the evolution of insects 

Mankind, wake up!


----------



## shredfreak (Feb 7, 2016)

goldsteinat0r said:


> Do people change? I honestly don't think Phil is a full bore Neo Nazi. He desperately seeks approval, and something tells me he thought the crowd would approve. Also he was probably obliterated.



And this is why the entire incident doesn't bother me that much. You simply can't take a person like that seriously.

The actual problem is the mass herd of mindless sheep that would follow such a person in the first place, although that's more of a parenting & educational problem.

The second problem would be the cowardly way where Flynn tries to get into the spotlight. Just big talk for a little bitch that runs home to post on twitter, and too much of a coward to face Anselmo face to face asking him WTF he thinks he was doing.

Now it's just getting painfully hilarious to be honest: Dimebag's Girlfriend Acuses MACHINE HEAD's Robb Flynn of "Masking His Real Problem" With Phil Anselmo - Metal Injection

What would dime do?... I reckon he would smack the .... out of Anselmo backstage. 

Seriously, Anselmo is like a lost little puppy without pantera, and has been acting like that ever since. This won't be the last dumb .... he does.


----------



## flint757 (Feb 8, 2016)

Social Media is just how the world communicates nowadays. It's neither macho or bitch-like behavior. Does it matter what he thinks? Perhaps not, but we wouldn't know either way had he not posted it. It could have been purely for attention, but you're basically saying that anyone famous only has one option, stay silent, or they're merely looking for attention. A bit unrealistic in the grand scheme of things.

I honestly doubt that anyone in Pantera wasn't marginally racist given their lyrical decisions (I imagine they all had to approve) and what they put up with from Phil over the years while turning a blind eye. They didn't dump him for his racism, but because he's a junkie and only because he was an unreliable junkie at that.


----------



## ArtDecade (Feb 8, 2016)

flint757 said:


> They didn't dump him for his racism, but because he's a junkie and only because he was an unreliable junkie at that.



Easy to accept Phil as a prick as long as the money keeps rolling in... Everyone has their price.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 8, 2016)

Hellfest Refuses to Drop Down and Phil Anselmo from Their Line-Up; French Government Yanks Funding - MetalSucks


----------



## flint757 (Feb 8, 2016)

I'm amused by the comment section that seems to think that a week of being shamed is somehow enough/the only point that things should immediately go back to business as usual now. Usually that is how it works nowadays because people have extremely short attention spans so causes never last very long, but I've personally always considered that a bad thing, not the way it should be.


----------



## feraledge (Feb 8, 2016)

flint757 said:


> I'm amused by the comment section that seems to think that a week of being shamed is somehow enough/the only point that things should immediately go back to business as usual now. Usually that is how it works nowadays because people have extremely short attention spans so causes never last very long, but I've personally always considered that a bad thing, not the way it should be.



Metalsucks comments < Youtube comments, which is a bad place to be. 
Not surprisingly, Phil gets a free card with trolls.


----------



## asher (Feb 8, 2016)

flint757 said:


> I'm amused by the comment section that seems to think that a week of being shamed is somehow enough/the only point that things should immediately go back to business as usual now. Usually that is how it works nowadays because people have extremely short attention spans so causes never last very long, but I've personally always considered that a bad thing, not the way it should be.



Never get off the boat.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 8, 2016)

feraledge said:


> Metalsucks comments < Youtube comments, which is a bad place to be.
> Not surprisingly, Phil gets a free card with trolls.



It's pretty much like this for any comment section.

But yeah, as bad as the writers for Metalsucks can be... When it comes to political-related stuff, MS's comment section can be tons more toxic. Anything that has a slightly liberal stint gets the troll crowd worked up.


----------



## Aymara (Feb 8, 2016)

Conclusion: The mob is stupid!


----------



## ArtDecade (Feb 8, 2016)

Aymara said:


> Conclusion: The mob is stupid!



False. The Mob Rules.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 8, 2016)

ArtDecade said:


> False. The Mob Rules.



If you listen to fools.


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## Aymara (Feb 8, 2016)

ArtDecade said:


> False. The Mob Rules.



The lynch mob?


----------



## ArtDecade (Feb 8, 2016)

Aymara said:


> The lynch mob?



That's Dio (w/ Sabbath), mate!


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## Aymara (Feb 9, 2016)

ArtDecade said:


> That's Dio (w/ Sabbath), mate!



Sorry, I didn't remember that song. I was never a Dio fan (more the opposite), except the first Rainbow album.


----------



## BouhZik (Feb 9, 2016)

feraledge said:


> Metalsucks comments < Youtube comments, which is a bad place to be.



I fully agree. But this MS article had a lot of mistakes and a comment corrected some bullsh.t about the french governement. So, thanks to the commentator.


----------



## ghostred7 (Feb 9, 2016)

I don't like what he said, nor support that belief....BUT....all of this "omg, he said something we don't like, so lets pull the band" overly sensitive bull.... really need to fvcking stop. I'm getting sick & tired of everyone being sensitive over every little thing people said. It's Metal, we're not supposed to care what anyone does or thinks...yet here we are letting every little thing bother us, getting easily offended at every little view point someone else has that's different than ours. OMFG...people (public, not sso folk)...grow up. Not everyone will say .... we agree with. I'm not going to stop liking music (or film, tv, novels, restaurants, etc) just because one part of their public face says something that doesn't line up with my thoughts. People never flipped .... like this over sexist behavior/comments/etc. 

It's more like - "yup, he's a dumbass that says dumb things....but dude can 'sing' and i enjoy hearing it.... his behavior != his music." NOTE: This is coming from a dude with Jewish family (raised Jewish, follow no faith now)...so you would think the zig heil would send me through the roof....but nah. Drunk redneck behavior doesn't influence my mood or ears.

Why are people OK with the Black Panthers going around and saying "Black Power" everywhere!? Double standards much?


----------



## Duosphere (Feb 9, 2016)

ghostred7 said:


> I don't like what he said, nor support that belief....BUT....all of this "omg, he said something we don't like, so lets pull the band" overly sensitive bull.... really need to fvcking stop. I'm getting sick & tired of everyone being sensitive over every little thing people said. It's Metal, we're not supposed to care what anyone does or thinks...yet here we are letting every little thing bother us, getting easily offended at every little view point someone else has that's different than ours. OMFG...people (public, not sso folk)...grow up. Not everyone will say .... we agree with. I'm not going to stop liking music (or film, tv, novels, restaurants, etc) just because one part of their public face says something that doesn't line up with my thoughts. People never flipped .... like this over sexist behavior/comments/etc.
> 
> It's more like - "yup, he's a dumbass that says dumb things....but dude can 'sing' and i enjoy hearing it.... his behavior != his music." NOTE: This is coming from a dude with Jewish family (raised Jewish, follow no faith now)...so you would think the zig heil would send me through the roof....but nah. Drunk redneck behavior doesn't influence my mood or ears.
> 
> Why are people OK with the Black Panthers going around and saying "Black Power" everywhere!? Double standards much?


----------



## ArtDecade (Feb 9, 2016)

ghostred7 said:


> Why are people OK with the Black Panthers going around and saying "Black Power" everywhere!? Double standards much?



Black Power and White Power are not the same thing. One stems from a racist infrastructure that has disenfranchised a people for generations. The rationale behind _black power_ is the determination to stand up for equality. The other stems from a supremacist attitude that wants to keep people from having that equality. Therein lies an enormous difference. One reflects the powerless and the other reflects the powerful.

Understood?


----------



## Double A (Feb 9, 2016)

Hasn't this thread run it's course like 5 times now?


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## Duosphere (Feb 9, 2016)

ArtDecade said:


> Understood?



Of course not, not even a 2.000 pages PDF manual would help


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Feb 9, 2016)

ghostred7 said:


> the dumbest crap to fall out of someone's stupid mouth



Boy is thread great for sifting out potted plants.


----------



## ArtDecade (Feb 9, 2016)

ghostred7 said:


> NOTE: This is coming from a dude with Jewish family (raised Jewish, follow no faith now)...so you would think the zig heil would send me through the roof....but nah. Drunk redneck behavior doesn't influence my mood or ears.



Phil is exulting people that would have gassed and burned you and your parents. Think about it. Maybe it _should_ elicit more of a response than "... but nah."


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## ghostred7 (Feb 9, 2016)

ArtDecade said:


> Phil is exulting people that would have gassed and burned you and your parents. Think about it. Maybe it _should_ elicit more of a response than "... but nah."



So did 99% of the hometown I grew up in. I grew up with anti-semetic bullies...ones that actually were physical instead of "verbal-when-drunk" like Phil.

He also still bro-hugged me this weekend when I met him while I was very intentionally wearing a shirt with a star of david on it. He certainly didn't mind taking $$$ from anyone of any origin, chatting and talking to people. I didn't observe any different behavior or body language between me, random white girl, random black dude...nada. Just him talking with everyone equally. So, maybe he ranted off some dumb drunk bull.... some other place and it offended people.... cool, don't be a fan. The core of my post is that venues letting the PC police who they dictate play is dumb...period. 

Hate speech is hate speech. There are tons of other artists that have spewed out as much bile against women, lgbt, etc: "That fag over there," "this ..../bitch here." ....no one blinks an eye. As soon as race enters everyone loses their mind. I really do not give any ....s about what he believes...his choice and whatever consequences....i just think people and venues need to stop pandering to everyone sensitivities. 

Dire Straits, while banned on very few radio stations was never asked to not perform that i've heard of, certainly not the outcry we have now. It's not like the song isn't on rotation any more...i heard it on the air yesterday...still says "faggot" in the lyrics.... no emotion, no outcry. Guess saying every dude that wears an earring is homosexual and ok to call a "faggot." 

Rapper Plies drops a song calling white people cracker > 20 times... no one blinks an eye.

Multiple rappers dropping n-word ....no one blinks an eye.

Known racist asshole gets drunk, puts his hand up, says 2 words of "White Power" and everyone loses their minds.

I just don't get the balance of emotion/lack of emotion between the different extremes. Seems like more often than not, people jump on what's popular with the media.



ArtDecade said:


> Black Power and White Power are not the same thing. One stems from a racist infrastructure that has disenfranchised a people for generations. The rationale behind _black power_ is the determination to stand up for equality. The other stems from a supremacist attitude that wants to keep people from having that equality. Therein lies an enormous difference. One reflects the powerless and the other reflects the powerful.
> 
> Understood?



I absolutely understand the difference in origin....but the origins and present day don't line up. 

Ignoring the fact that the founder was in jail for 30yrs for killing an officer.... Within the passed year we've had Black Panther party leaders call for massacres against white people and white police officers, so regardless of origins....i cannot simply stand with them now. Screw them and the KKK.

As for Max & potted plant thing. .... you, you know nothing about me and thankfully never will.


----------



## ArtDecade (Feb 9, 2016)

ghostred7 said:


> Hate speech is hate speech. There are tons of other artists that have spewed out as much bile against women, lgbt, etc: "That fag over there," "this ..../bitch here." ....no one blinks an eye. As soon as race enters everyone loses their mind. I really do not give any ....s about what he believes...his choice and whatever consequences....i just think people and venues need to stop pandering to everyone sensitivities.



I have a massive problem with all hate speech - whether geared towards gender, sexual orientation, or race. It has no place in modern society and just furthers divisions between us. This isn't me being sensitive; it _is_ me being human. I don't have time for people that spew venom like Phil in my life. I prefer to use my time being positive and enacting the change that brings us all closer together.


----------



## TedEH (Feb 9, 2016)

ghostred7 said:


> but the origins and present day don't line up.



That's not even close to true. There is no other context/meaning for it. Nobody has "taken the expression back" or any of that nonsense. It's entire meaning and usage is derived from it's historical significance. Wanting it to be otherwise doesn't change anything.

Don't get me wrong, I'm usually on the side of keeping politics out of music and letting people do whatever they're going to do, but there's a line.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Feb 9, 2016)

ghostred7 said:


> As for Max & potted plant thing. .... you, you know nothing about me and thankfully never will.



Cool story bro.


----------



## BIG ND SWEATY (Feb 9, 2016)

ghostred7 said:


> Rapper Plies drops a song calling white people cracker > 20 times... no one blinks an eye.
> 
> Multiple rappers dropping n-word ....no one blinks an eye.
> 
> Known racist asshole gets drunk, puts his hand up, says 2 words of "White Power" and everyone loses their minds.


Because what kind of .... head white person is going to be genuinely offended by being called a cracker? Oh thats right no one would because its not an offensive racial slur that stems from generations of abuse.

I don't even know why you or anyone else would have a problem with black people using the n-word. 

It's almost like you and a few other members here don't quite understand the kind of weight a phrase like "white power" carries and that honestly boggles my ....ing mind. How can anyone see someone say white power with ANY hint of seriousness and not immediately be disgusted not to mention doing a ....ing Nazi salute along with it. There is absolutely no excuse for anyone to be saying it let alone doing it in front of a crowd of people. 

If your honest first reaction to people being upset over some saying and doing something racist is "stop being so sensitive" you're a ....ing moron and don't deserve to share this forum with the rest of us.


----------



## Fraz666 (Feb 9, 2016)

ghostred7 said:


> It's Metal, we're not supposed to care what anyone does or thinks...


I grew up with a different kind of metal.
bands like Nuclear Assault, Anthrax, Metallica, Atrophy (etc.) in their lyrics were more focused on environment and human rights than sex & drugs.
not everyone sing about women, killing, religion and lord of the rings.

now we're in 2016, humanity is supposed to go forward, not backward


----------



## neurosis (Feb 9, 2016)

ghostred7 said:


> ...certainly not the outcry we have now.
> ...
> Seems like more often than not, people jump on what's popular with the media.



I don´t know if it´s such an outcry, though. I mean, this would have passed without notice like all his other videos had the fan who uploaded it not expressed his discomfort and feeling of civil responsibility to post it. Then what really added fuel to the fire was Flynn´s video monologue. But overall this is still a thing contained in a smaller circle. I mean despite it going around the world it´s not big news. For the most part people see a bully and a racist and move on. They are considered a minority. It´s int he metal community that this has made a headline, mainly because of the media machine. 

I still think it´s ....ty what he did, however you put it but I am with you that there is this twitter, post, youtube machine that dilutes the cause behind anything and everything just the way it functions. (if that´s what you mean) But amongst all the people riding the wave of any event I still think there is a lot who actually are sensitive to this stuff and really care. 

I think the sentiment here is that a dude that´s part of metal history turns out to be not as nice as new fans think he was. It gets advertised and he apologizes. Meanwhile people who don´t want to be associated with the dude speak out and so it goes. It´s like a communication leper kind of thing... distance yourself. make sure you have a position. 

Before Twitter we bought the record, went to the show and read the gossip but that was it. Nobody gave a damn. So I get where you are coming from having had experiences with real racists and bullies, but Phil screwed up. I mean come on, the past episodes relating to racism are plenty. They were constantly asked about this in a ton of interviews during the nineties. 

For better or worse this will be over soon 


EDIT: Scratch that, Ignore this post... I am tired and started mixing topics. I went for the media bait line, then lost my point. 
Regardless of how it is being framed what he did was stupid and inappropriate. It´s deserving of all the talk and disapproval for sure. Comparing this episode to any other stuff does´t change the fact that it´s wrong. 

Now about the media thing... Yes, there are people who follow but there are also a lot of people who have a backbone and don´t tolerate this bull..... In any case if the followers can be swayed to see something like this is not ok then I don´t see what´s wrong wight hat either. It´s also easy to say that Twitter, Youtube etc are frugal spots where people interact superficially and you see a lot of random stuff but for a serious matter like this the credibility of the medium really has little influence I think. Before Twitter this stuff made it into Kerrang or MTV as well. And the debate was the same because obviously this stuff is controversial (rightfully so). What I mean by that is that people aren´t riding a bandwagon. It´s easy to see this is a racist and discriminatory thing to say. I am surprised, for the even stronger historical background of it not more backlash has happened because above all in Europe this is considered antisemitism. Now, the way of treating it is different... because maybe wrongfully in Europe we brush these things off as marginal: ¨Look at that idiot, he thinks his abhorrent views have a place... poor man.¨


----------



## ArtDecade (Feb 9, 2016)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Cool story bro.



This thread is keeping your ban button busy.


----------



## GuitarBizarre (Feb 9, 2016)

neurosis said:


> I don´t know if it´s such an outcry, though. I mean, this would have passed without notice like all his other videos had the fan who uploaded it not expressed his discomfort and feeling of civil responsibility to post it. Then what really added fuel to the fire was Flynn´s video monologue. But overall this is still a thing contained in a smaller circle. I mean despite it going around the world it´s not big news. For the most part people see a bully and a racist and move on. They are considered a minority. It´s int he metal community that this has made a headline, mainly because of the media machine.
> 
> I still think it´s ....ty what he did, however you put it but I am with you that there is this twitter, post, youtube machine that dilutes the cause behind anything and everything just the way it functions. (if that´s what you mean) But amongst all the people riding the wave of any event I still think there is a lot who actually are sensitive to this stuff and really care.
> 
> ...



He's banned dude.


That said - To everyone posting as if nobody should care - I agree with the premise that if you don't see a reason to slap this .... down when it comes up, you don't deserve to share space with the rest of us who are willing to vocalise that this .... is unacceptable.

It's a trite and oft misused saying, but the old quote applies - "The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that _Good Men Do Nothing_."


----------



## ArtDecade (Feb 9, 2016)

GuitarBizarre said:


> It's a trite and oft misused saying, but the old quote applies - "The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that _Good Men Do Nothing_."



Metal is a small community. We police our own.


----------



## asher (Feb 9, 2016)

Why am I not surprised about the latest self-inflicted ban


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 9, 2016)

If I see someone use the "black pride is racist" argument, I'd just assume they're a lost cause. What's that... The 4th time it's used here?

Love this thread though. Weeding out all the teenage edgelords.


----------



## VBCheeseGrater (Feb 9, 2016)

asher said:


> He can stop pulling this kittening act over and over. His apology means little if he doesn't change his actions.



Yeah that's true - if you keep doing it, then apologies don't mean much. I'm just not quick to judge as i've said stupid things before in my lifetime. If my life was broadcast on youtube, there would be some tense moments. 

Although at Phil's age, it's about time those moments stopped happening. I pity the guy more than anything. 

yes, apology accepted - now stop doing it.....


----------



## Aymara (Feb 9, 2016)

VBCheeseGrater said:


> yes, apology accepted - now stop doing it.....



I fear just stopping this behaviour isn't enough to proof, that the apology was honest.

For me personally I want to see a change in ideologies ... in other words, he will need to show, he changed his mind.

Currently I don't expect that to see in the near future or at all.


----------



## asher (Feb 9, 2016)

Aymara said:


> I fear just stopping this behaviour isn't enough to proof, that the apology was honest.
> 
> For me personally I want to see a change in ideologies ... in other words, he will need to show, he changed his mind.
> 
> Currently I don't expect that to see in the near future or at all.



How is he supposed to show he's changed his mind, aside from changing his behavior?


----------



## Aymara (Feb 9, 2016)

asher said:


> How is he supposed to show he's changed his mind, aside from changing his behavior?



Changing your behaviour can mean _stopping bad behaviour_ or _showing good behaviour_ 

I meant the later.


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## flint757 (Feb 9, 2016)

I think he just meant there is no way to know that he's being sincere. As long as he pretends like he has changed, and stops doing racist crap at least publicly, I'm fine with that, sincere or not. It'd be nice if he changed for real, but we can't read minds so indeed all we have to go on is his behavior. Not sure how you can prove a change in ideology though.


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## VBCheeseGrater (Feb 9, 2016)

asher said:


> How is he supposed to show he's changed his mind, aside from changing his behavior?



Again, join the NAACP. Seriously though, activism etc - similar to how Vick handled the dog fighting. Certainly if he really wanted to show the world "hey i'm not racist!!" that would be a good (and actually useful) way of doing it.

Even then, some would still cry foul though, we all know this.



flint757 said:


> I think he just meant there is no way to know that he's being sincere. As long as he pretends like he has changed, and stops doing racist crap at least publicly, I'm fine with that, sincere or not. It'd be nice if he changed for real, but we can't read minds so indeed all we have to go on is his behavior. Not sure how you can prove a change in ideology though.



I agree, we can never know if he's sincere, but for the sake of discussion, lets say he started doing anti-racism activist work in the community. Actually spending his time fighting racism. At that point, I don't need to question one's intent, as they are providing a service to help the cause. It's like folks who cry "Jesus Freak!!" to christians who just got back from building a well for some drought stricken village in africa. "So what if he's a jesus freak?" ...what good have you done (not you flint ) for the world today in the name of "Jesus is not god"?. 

Disclaimer: not a practicing christian.


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## neurosis (Feb 9, 2016)

GuitarBizarre said:


> He's banned dude.



yeah... I realized after I realized I was writing around and edited the post for clarity. Not sure you read that. 

Note to self: Don´t post here while working and with no sleep.


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## Aymara (Feb 9, 2016)

flint757 said:


> Not sure how you can prove a change in ideology though.



I would find a black band member pretty convincing  Just an example.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 9, 2016)

Aymara said:


> I would find a black band member pretty convincing  Just an example.



I think that would actually be more racist and in poorer taste. 

Phil: "See how not racist I am? I found a black guy! See, I'm totally not a terrible person, just look at my black guy do stuff! Isn't he great and black?! Only a not-total-racist would dare be seen with a black guy!" 

It's the "black friend" excuse all over again. 

I'm not sure what the best outcome of all this would be, but band member affirmative action isn't it. Sure didn't work out in any other field.


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## Aymara (Feb 9, 2016)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's the "black friend" excuse all over again.



Ok, yes, it could be just a marketing trick.

Well, then it needs to be an ugly colored wife, Asian maybe?  ... just black humour 

Time will tell.


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## ArtDecade (Feb 9, 2016)

Aymara said:


> Well, then it needs to be an ugly colored wife, Asian maybe?  ... just black humour


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## Triple-J (Feb 9, 2016)

Aymara said:


> I would find a black band member pretty convincing  Just an example.



Kevin Bond of Superjoint Ritual is mixed race and I'm pretty sure Marzi Montazeri (guitarist for Anselmo's solo band) is Iranian-American.


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## Jaxcharvel (Feb 9, 2016)

Obviously not my call, but maybe we should just kill this thread. I'm not trying to argue over it anymore as I've said my peace, but there is some pretty drastic difference in opinion here and we've lost at least three members due to it. It's kinda just a circle-jerk at this point anyway. The same stuff from the first few pages is just being rehashed over and over.


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## Aymara (Feb 10, 2016)

Triple-J said:


> I'm pretty sure Marzi Montazeri (guitarist for Anselmo's solo band) is Iranian-American.



That's pretty interesting and leads to the thesis, that Phil might not be a real racist, but is just plain stupid due to too much drugs and alcohol.

I remember an interview, where he said, that he likes to be an extremist in any way.



Jaxcharvel said:


> It's kinda just a circle-jerk at this point anyway. The same stuff from the first few pages is just being rehashed over and over.



Not astonishing in such a long thread, where people like to tell their opinions without having read every post.

And that people get banned because of this thread is no reason to close it.

It's quite simple ... I myself made a bad joke above, which obviously someone found offending or just plain stupid, so I say SORRY now and that's it. If others misbehave constantly though they got warned, then they deserve to get banned, right? Sorry, that's no loss for this community in my opinion.

This is obviously a thread, where the majority of the community wants to tell their personal opinion, so why not let them, even when they are late and didn't read anything.

I think, there's no reason to close this thread.


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## Jaxcharvel (Feb 10, 2016)

Aymara said:


> That's pretty interesting and leads to the thesis, that Phil might not be a real racist, but is just plain stupid due to too much drugs and alcohol.
> 
> I remember an interview, where he said, that he likes to be an extremist in any way.
> 
> ...



Sharing of opinions is a good thing, and nothing to get bent out of shape about. The problem is that this isn't about opinions, it's about personal beliefs. And that's just asking for conflict. That's why discussions about religion or politics never end well. People take the .... too personally and tempers flare. Not really a justifiable reason to ban someone in my opinion.


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## marcwormjim (Feb 10, 2016)

I need this thread so as to know the heroes of the community.


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## ArtDecade (Feb 10, 2016)

marcwormjim said:


> I need this thread so as to know the heroes of the community.



"You try to say pithy things, but your wit is a hindrance."


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 10, 2016)

Jaxcharvel said:


> Not really a justifiable reason to ban someone in my opinion.



I don't know, I think defending racism to the point of fanaticism is worthy of a ban.


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## asher (Feb 10, 2016)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I don't know, I think defending racism to the point of fanaticism is worthy of a ban.



So is telling a mod to .... off.


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## fps (Feb 10, 2016)

Aymara said:


> That's pretty interesting and leads to the thesis, that Phil might not be a real racist, but is just plain stupid due to too much drugs and alcohol.
> 
> I remember an interview, where he said, that he likes to be an extremist in any way.
> .



I think there's a lot of truth in this, but still believe it utterly necessary there is an enormous fallout from this level of stupidity/arrogance/ignorance/offensiveness/historical illiteracy, since it is linked to an evil and disgusting way of looking at the world.


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## Aymara (Feb 10, 2016)

Jaxcharvel said:


> Not really a justifiable reason to ban someone in my opinion.



A ban should be conform to the forum rules, not to an opinion, yes.


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## Thorerges (Feb 10, 2016)

Aymara said:


> That's pretty interesting and leads to the thesis, that Phil might not be a real racist, but is just plain stupid due to too much drugs and alcohol.



I agree with this assessment, should still face the long overdue consequences of his actions. I don't believe Anselmo is racist and is in fact, a good guy - but it doesn't mean anything.


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## Aymara (Feb 10, 2016)

fps said:


> ... it is linked to an evil and disgusting way of looking at the world.



I think, Phil is a very "angry" person and this includes self-distructiveness.

I was just trying to understand, if there's a chance to really change his mind or not, but I fear, you need to be his psychiatrist to have answer to that question.


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## feraledge (Feb 10, 2016)

Aymara said:


> That's pretty interesting and leads to the thesis, that Phil might not be a real racist, but is just plain stupid due to too much drugs and alcohol.



Drugs and alcohol don't make you racist, they remove inhibitions. Phil seems stupid enough to be racist, but maybe just on the fence about being savvy enough to know when to keep his mouth shut. Something that drugs and alcohol can further give a shove on. 
If he wants to be the "extreme" dude and say racist stuff, then why apologize? 
Also, I see people pointing out inconsistencies in terms of him saying racist things and then having relationships with people who aren't or aren't fully white. That's going to happen. Racism is a product of ignorance and blindness, it doesn't make sense, so it's proponents will simply follow suit. 
There are plenty of racists who will befriend someone who isn't white, but then have some kind of distancing with that person as an individual. That alone is enough to undo the ridiculous basis for racist thought, but again, they mad dumb.


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## animal101 (Feb 10, 2016)

I mean honestly....is anyone surprised? Really?

Personally..and I really mean this ...anyone with any shred of intelligence after reading the lyrics to Far Beyond Driven would have put down that cd and walked faaaaaaaaar faaaaaar away from that band.


When I was growing up EVERY person that listened to that band in my school ended up an alcoholic or a drug addict .....and not WOO HOO! party types, just total trailer park material.

I mean just listen to this guys rant on the middle east FFS
https://web.archive.org/web/2004082...useaction=bandprofile.downloadSong&bsid=77882
At the time of this interview I doubt he could even tie his shoelace let alone go hunting extremists.


At the same time...he has been saying the same .... on stage for YEARS.
Why does everyone have a problem with it now? The band didn't seem to mind when the whole "STRONGER THAN ALL" bravardo took over the hair spray and the spandex.

As long as it was lining the pockets with $$$....


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## coreysMonster (Feb 10, 2016)

> 'The band didn't seem to mind when the whole "STRONGER THAN ALL" bravardo took over the hair spray and the spandex.'



I don't think this is true. I read that Dime and Vinny weren't happy at all with the lyrical direction Anselmo was taking after FBD. They wanted to have fun and party and thought the lyrics were going way too dark (this is something I read in a magazine article about Dime a couple of years ago so don't quote me on this).

Speaking of which, I just read the lyrics to Far Beyond Driven, and the jarring shift in tone from Throes of Rejection to Planet Caravan (their Sabbath cover) is hilarious.


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## TedEH (Feb 10, 2016)

animal101 said:


> EVERY person that listened to that band in my school ended up an alcoholic



That's not how music works. 



> Why does everyone have a problem with it now?



You're asking the wrong question- being able to get away with something previously doesn't excuse it now. We should instead be asking the question "why did we not have a problem with it before?" I'd venture that his views/behavior were less visible to casual listeners up to this point- Either because he wasn't literally doing the salute at shows or because he's kept his outbursts to less visible occasions. Maybe to someone who followed their behavior, went to all his shows, etc., it's obvious that he's racist, but this is a case of not just having the view, but expressing it blatantly and publicly, which by chance was broadcast to a huge audience. Maybe nothing would have happened if the video hadn't been posted- but it's inappropriate whether it's been called out or not. If he really has been shouting the same things, doing Nazi salutes at shows, etc., then it's only by luck that he hasn't been more publicly called out on it before this point.


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## ArtDecade (Feb 10, 2016)

TedEH said:


> That's not how music works.


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## animal101 (Feb 10, 2016)

TedEH said:


> That's not how music works.



Certainly did in my town 
Maybe you can counter the argument with some examples of Pantera fans really killing it in life?




TedEH said:


> Either because he wasn't literally doing the salute at shows or because he's kept his outbursts to less visible occasions. Maybe to someone who followed their behavior, went to all his shows, etc., it's obvious that he's racist, but this is a case of not just having the view, but expressing it blatantly and publicly, which by chance was broadcast to a huge audience. .


 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q67QHvrozw


Its been going on for YEARS



coreysMonster said:


> I don't think this is true. I read that Dime and Vinny weren't happy at all with the lyrical direction Anselmo was taking after FBD. They wanted to have fun and party and thought the lyrics were going way too dark (this is something I read in a magazine article about Dime a couple of years ago so don't quote me on this).
> 
> Speaking of which, I just read the lyrics to Far Beyond Driven, and the jarring shift in tone from Throes of Rejection to Planet Caravan (their Sabbath cover) is hilarious.


 
Oh they couldn't get enough of it, Vinnie especially to go along with the whole "bad boy" image....but when the snake (Phil) turned around and bit them only then was it a problem.

At the end of the day Phil is honestly just a harmless loud mouth...there are thousands of things going on in the world far worse. Its only in this day of SJW's and social media lynching that its an issue.

Most people with any brains passed on this band or his views a LONG time ago.....


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 10, 2016)

animal101 said:


> Certainly did in my town
> Maybe you can counter the argument with some examples of Pantera fans really killing it in life?


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## ArtDecade (Feb 10, 2016)

animal101 said:


> Maybe you can counter the argument with some examples of Pantera fans really killing it in life?



I last saw Pantera back in the late 90s with a group of friends that I am still close with. Where are they now?

Academic Librarian (Me)
RN
Accountant
Engineer
Insurance Agent
Navy Pilot

Completely anecdotal, but we made out ok.
Maybe your town just sucks?


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## Michael_Ten (Feb 10, 2016)

animal101 said:


> Certainly did in my town
> Maybe you can counter the argument with some examples of Pantera fans really killing it in life?



Well, your hometown location is "hell," so that makes sense that the kind of people from your neck of the woods who like Pantera would end up as miserable, do-nothing f*cks. But I assume the same out of any small town a musician would call hell. Probably lots of ICP fans in your area, too, no?


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## Zalbu (Feb 10, 2016)

animal101 said:


> Certainly did in my town
> Maybe you can counter the argument with some examples of Pantera fans really killing it in life?


Probably a whole lot of your favorite metal guitarists today?


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## animal101 (Feb 10, 2016)

Michael_Ten said:


> Well, your hometown location is "hell," so that makes sense that the kind of people from your neck of the woods who like Pantera would end up as miserable, do-nothing f*cks. But I assume the same out of any small town a musician would call hell. Probably lots of ICP fans in your area, too, no?


 
Actually no, lots of white kids wearing COMPTON hats selling weed thinking they were Pablo Escobar



Zalbu said:


> Probably a whole lot of your favorite metal guitarists today?



That's good they are doing what they love but not what I think of in terms of "killing it" in life.
That's pretty apple from the tree anyhow.


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## TedEH (Feb 10, 2016)

animal101 said:


> Certainly did in my town
> Maybe you can counter the argument with some examples of Pantera fans really killing it in life?



I'm a Pantera fan, and I've got a great job. I make video games for a living.

My point wasn't that he wasn't racist, or wasn't showing it- but rather that it hadn't been spotlighted. Casual listeners, or fans who don't pay close attention (myself included) didn't see it happening until now.


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## Aymara (Feb 10, 2016)

ArtDecade said:


> Maybe your town just sucks?



I think it's just matter of social background and personal socialisation. It's similar to computer games ... not every shooter player becomes a homicidal maniac , a few do though


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## n4t (Feb 10, 2016)

Aymara said:


> not every shooter player becomes a homicidal maniac , a few do though



Please keep your made-up crap to yourself. The internet is bad enough already.


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## Michael_Ten (Feb 10, 2016)

animal101 said:


> Actually no, lots of white kids wearing COMPTON hats selling weed thinking they were Pablo Escobar



That fits the description of a Juggalo, yes?


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## Aymara (Feb 10, 2016)

n4t said:


> Please keep your made-up crap to yourself. The internet is bad enough already.



That's not MY crap, that's the crap German politicians were discussing and planned to ban such games completely. This nonsense is pretty well known in Europe ... obviously not in the US.


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## asher (Feb 10, 2016)

People made a big deal of that stupidity in the late 90s/early aughts here, too... I don't know what he was referring to. Maybe he thought you were somehow supporting it?


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## EvA (Feb 10, 2016)

TedEH said:


> My point wasn't that he wasn't racist, or wasn't showing it- but rather that it hadn't been spotlighted. Casual listeners, or fans who don't pay close attention (myself included) didn't see it happening until now.


This was exactly the same for me, I had no idea until this all came out that it had been happening for years. 
I was surprised at the mixed opinions of fans and how a lot seemed to shrug it off because of this, acting as if the negativity directed at Phil is irrelevant due to him having said these things prior and getting away with it.


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## snissors (Feb 12, 2016)

If I listen to Pantera I still enjoy it as much as ever. I don't know the people that play the music I like, and its easy for me to separate the music from the reality of who these people are and how they behave.


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## Duosphere (Feb 12, 2016)

snissors said:


> If I listen to Pantera I still enjoy it as much as ever. I don't know the people that play the music I like, and its easy for me to separate the music from the reality of who these people are and how they behave.



Ok but let's assume a band you like are rapists and they use all money they make with music to travel to different countries to rape women, will you still buy their music therefore help them with their "adventure" ?
Not clear enough?
Ok let's assume a band you like are terrorists and they use all money they make with music to buy guns, will you still buy their music therefore help them with their "adventure" ?
According to your reply above, yes you'll help them cause you separate their behavior from their music.
Separate music from a dumbass musician = perfect(I do that all the time).
Separate music from people who mess up other people lives = you're helping them messing with other people lives(buying their stuff).
There's a huge difference between a dumb musician and an evil person.


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## TedEH (Feb 12, 2016)

Duosphere said:


> Ok but let's assume a band you like are rapists and they use all money they make with music to travel to different countries to rape women, will you still buy their music therefore help them with their "adventure" ?
> Not clear enough?
> Ok let's assume a band you like are terrorists and they use all money they make with music to buy guns, will you still buy their music therefore help them with their "adventure" ?
> According to your reply above, yes you'll help them cause you separate their behavior from their music.
> ...



Phil Anselmo didn't mess up anyone's lives (edit: before someone digs up some previous event where I he did something that hasn't been brought up yet, I'm talking about this particular event with the salute etc). Yeh he made a mistake, but he didn't rape or murder anyone. Even Hitlers paintings still get some appreciation.  You can absolutely separate the music from the musician.


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## Duosphere (Feb 12, 2016)

TedEH said:


> Phil Anselmo didn't mess up anyone's lives (edit: before someone digs up some previous event where I he did something that hasn't been brought up yet, I'm talking about this particular event with the salute etc). Yeh he made a mistake, but he didn't rape or murder anyone. Even Hitlers paintings still get some appreciation.  You can absolutely separate the music from the musician.



I didn't mention Anselmo at all.
No you can't unless you want to support what they do.
If you want to support dumb musicians, that's ok.
If you want to support bad people, you're bad too cause you know they use their money to do bad things.


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## TedEH (Feb 12, 2016)

Duosphere said:


> If you want to support dumb musicians, that's ok.
> If you want to support bad people, you're bad too cause you know they use their money to do bad things.



I disagree with you on the basis that what you're saying is a huge generalization. But to each their own opinion I guess. Edit: Also, it's worth making a distinction between "supporting" and "appreciating". You can appreciate someone's artistic output without giving them any money or supporting their unrelated behavior.


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## Duosphere (Feb 12, 2016)

TedEH said:


> I disagree with you on the basis that what you're saying is a huge generalization. But to each their own opinion I guess. Edit: Also, it's worth making a distinction between "supporting" and "appreciating". You can appreciate someone's artistic output without giving them any money or supporting their unrelated behavior.



Generalization?
Nope, bad people are bad, no generalization at all.
Without giving them any money you mean stealing their things on the net?
The only free way would be listening their music on the radio or if a friend gives you their stuff still your friend's money will help them with their "adventures".
I'd never buy anything from someone I know it's a bad person, someone who mess up other people lives no matter how I enjoy their music.
There are a lot of dumb musicians who only mess up their own lives( with drugs etc), those I can separate their music from their behavior.


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## flint757 (Feb 12, 2016)

By that logic we are all bad people then because money we spend in big brand stores, and even the taxes we pay, have money tied to some pretty horrible things.

Buying something because you like it and then they happen to spend it on bad things is different than intending to fund their activity. If I bought a guitar from a dude who I knew was a crackhead you're saying I'm a bad person because I have well substantiated suspicions that he'll use those profits to by drugs; and by that extension he's helping fund the cartel by buying the drugs to begin with.

It's a bit of a slippery slope and at best grey area. If you have strong ethics it'd probably be wise to simply avoid bad people, but not everyone is so strongly sewn to their values/ethics.

I personally try to avoid people, companies, and groups that don't align with mine (and usually fail because I'm not wealthy enough to do so always), but just because someone else doesn't do so doesn't make them 'bad'. It simply means they have different priorities.


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## Aymara (Feb 12, 2016)

TedEH said:


> You can appreciate someone's artistic output without giving them any money or supporting their unrelated behavior.



Yes, you can, but some people just don't want to appreciate anything from a person he/she don't like or even hate.


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## CapnForsaggio (Feb 12, 2016)

Is there any stock in the idea that:

'no one is ENTIRELY good, and no one is ENTIRELY bad.'

I mean Ted bundy's old girlfriend was a character witness for his defense. She obviously didn't experience his evil side. 

I guess what I'm trying to propose is that this HUGE MISTAKE of Phil's shouldn't discount every possible decent thing he has done in his life. 

At some point in his career, he probably really made some person's day. 
During this particular day in his career, he offended many people.

No one has ever accused him of being remarkably eloquent in the first place.... has anyone listened to Vulgar Display? He has been getting paid for decades to be as intense as possible....

Not the last time, I assure you.


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## Duosphere (Feb 12, 2016)

flint757 said:


> By that logic we are all bad people then because money we spend in big brand stores, and even the taxes we pay, have money tied to some pretty horrible things.
> 
> Buying something because you like it and then they happen to spend it on bad things is different than intending to fund their activity. If I bought a guitar from a dude who I knew was a crack head you're saying I'm a bad person because I have well substantiated suspicions that he'll use those profits to by drugs; and by that extension he's helping fund the cartel by buying the drugs to begin with.
> 
> ...



Agreed, butt there's a big difference between buying a guitar from someone you don't know what he did/will do and from a racist/rapist/killer etc.If any artist makes a video showing his real face and it's a bad face, will you support him?I won't.


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## coreysMonster (Feb 12, 2016)

Duosphere said:


> Ok but let's assume a band you like are rapists and they use all money they make with music to travel to different countries to rape women, will you still buy their music therefore help them with their "adventure" ?
> Not clear enough?
> Ok let's assume a band you like are terrorists and they use all money they make with music to buy guns, will you still buy their music therefore help them with their "adventure" ?
> According to your reply above, yes you'll help them cause you separate their behavior from their music.
> ...


This is such a gigantic strawman and ridiculous argument. Why not go all the way and say "What if a band were nothing but Hitler and Stalin? Would you buy Hitler and Stalin's music? That is EXACTLY THE SAME as buying a Pantera album!".

Yes, there is a _big _difference between a dumb or ignorant person and an evil person, but you're getting it wrong. Don't be so fast to lump ignorance or lack of education together with sadism, violence and hatred, that helps absolutely nobody.


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## jwade (Feb 12, 2016)

Duosphere said:


> Ok but let's assume a band you like are rapists and they use all money they make with music to travel to different countries to rape women, will you still buy their music therefore help them with their "adventure" ?
> Not clear enough?
> Ok let's assume a band you like are terrorists and they use all money they make with music to buy guns, will you still buy their music therefore help them with their "adventure" ?
> According to your reply above, yes you'll help them cause you separate their behavior from their music.
> ...



This is one of the most illogical things I've ever read on this board. You're grasping so hard at straws here, and it's completely nonsensical. This is the same absurd logic used all over the place online, and it always leads to idiotic fights that degenerate into petty namecalling and ridiculous _'..if you don't agree with me, you support _____ (insert random thing people are railing against)!'_


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## Hogie34 (Feb 12, 2016)

jwade said:


> This is one of the most illogical things I've ever read on this board. You're grasping so hard at straws here, and it's completely nonsensical. This is the same absurd logic used all over the place online, and it always leads to idiotic fights that degenerate into petty namecalling and ridiculous _'..if you don't agree with me, you support _____ (insert random thing people are railing against)!'_



I held back writing this same thing all day in fear it may be taken as a personal attack etc. glad I waited and you did cause you were much more diplomatic than I was in the post I was writing lol.


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## jwade (Feb 12, 2016)

Definitely not a personal attack, just an observation on an overly prevalent mindset on the internet these days.


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## Aymara (Feb 13, 2016)

jwade said:


> just an observation on an overly prevalent mindset on the internet these days.



In such discussions we shouldn't forget, that this is an international forum, where many people like our South American friend and myself e.g. have a different mother tongue.

Some topics aren't easy to explain for people who's mother tongue isn't English, which can lead to misinterpretations.

I sympathize more or less with Duosphere's argumentation with the answer: Noone is innocent


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## HoneyNut (Feb 13, 2016)

What if the racist is a good cook? Do we eat his food? ...I really don't know the answer to that. 

Honestly, even if it was Hitler who made me Thai seafood, I'd probably eat it. 

But if Hitler's actions had some direct affect on my family/friends, I probably wouldn't, no matter what the food is.

The music of Pantera is good, no doubt. Love Dimebag's solos and riffs. But knowing that the singer was such an ignorant guy, I probably wouldn't have supported him. 

It's the same way I wouldn't support an ignorant who jokes about Jews, or blacks, or whatever 'category of mankind'. I wouldn't listen to this jokers music, no matter how good it is if he finds these things funny. It might be funny to some, but that's very immature. 

IMO of course.


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## Aymara (Feb 13, 2016)

Jeesan said:


> Do we eat his food?



As long as I myself would have an alternative, I wouldn't.


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## flint757 (Feb 13, 2016)

If you have ever eaten out at a restaurant it is highly likely you have eaten food prepped by a racist. 

Line cooks are notoriously foulmouthed.


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## canuck brian (Feb 13, 2016)

Dimebag was one of my biggest influences and a total guitar hero for me. 

The idea that I'm supporting Phil's racist crap by listening to Pantera is ridiculous. I listen to my guitar hero tear it up and a killer band play some awesome tunes. How far does this "if this guy does something wrong, you can't listen to the art he helped produce" thing actually go? I can't listen to it because I found out Phil is an idiot racist 23 years after i started listening? I've never once correlated anything Pantera wrote to racism and honestly never got that out of any of the lyrics. 

The songs haven't lost whatever meaning i have for them and I really haven't forgotten the awesome memories of seeing Pantera live, driving around town after class with my buddies with Strength Beyond Strength blasting out of my parent's car.... I'm not going to support Phil in his future endeavors, but I'm also not going to pull some childish, knee-jerk "Well Phil is a racist so listening to Pantera is racist." Listening to and enjoying Rahowa is racist. Listneing to and enjoying Pantera is not. 

Pretty sure if you showed up to a concert and called a guy racist for wearing a Pantera shirt and supporting Phil's views you'd probably lose some teeth.


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## HoneyNut (Feb 13, 2016)

flint757 said:


> If you have ever eaten out at a restaurant it is highly likely you have eaten food prepped by a racist.
> 
> Line cooks are notoriously foulmouthed.



Good one. I've had those experiences.

Canuck Brian, yeah, that'll be pretty stupid if someone does that. I am definitely not saying that. Like yourself, I grew up with Pantera's music. In fact, I was one of the people at the Periphery thread and defending 'angry' metal vs. modern singing, and the band I was implying was Pantera. 

Now trust me, Pantera has a huge following all over the world. Even in South Asia (my background), there is a strong metal crowd, and everyone listens to Pantera. Would Phil's gesture stop them from listening to Pantera, I doubt it. Would I stop listening to Pantera because of these recent developments? It'll be hard cause I'm too used to saying the lyrics out in my head when I'm cooking or working or, you know, doing things. 

But like a socially aware person, I wouldn't be able to appreciate Pantera, hold them up high in conversations, when the frontman is known to be saying such silly things. 

I am not sensitive to these matters. Like I've said, I've worked in a kitchen before, but that stuff belongs in the kitchen. This is how the world is. But as an individual who prefers an enlightened society (like us here for the most part), I wouldn't support anyone from any group to be making such jokes. 

There are racist people in all ethnicities, and in a conversation, if someone tells me that 'oh they are like this or like that' , i DO take the initiative to enlighten them as much as limitations allow. People say racist things behind doors, and whenver I see that, I try to raise their awareness. It's very late, and surprisingly there are people who still think Jews are the cause of all evil. These views are just not right. That's the point I am trying to make. 

If a guy wears a Pantera shirt, would I call him out on it? No. I mean come on, you know I am not suggesting that. And in my experience, I've met more people, girls/guys who wear/listen to Pantera in South Asia, than in North America.


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## Andromalia (Feb 13, 2016)

Jeesan said:


> What if the racist is a good cook? Do we eat his food? ...I really don't know the answer to that.



I do, but not if there's a svastika shaped cake for dessert.


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## Fraz666 (Feb 15, 2016)

Pantera is one of my favourite bands and I've never been a fascist pig.
If I had to stop listening to any band with an asshole in the lineup I think I would stay with a max of 10 cd


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## GuitarBizarre (Feb 15, 2016)

Fraz666 said:


> Pantera is one of my favourite bands and I've never been a fascist pig.
> If I had to stop listening to any band with an asshole in the lineup I think I would stay with a max of 10 cd



Why do people keep equating this with having to stop listening to the music?

Nobody, at any point in this thread, has said you're no longer allowed to enjoy Pantera. Literally nobody. 

No really. NOBODY. IT HAS NOT BEEN SAID.

I took the plunge a little while ago and listened to some Burzum.

Varg Vikernes is, obviously, the man behind that, and also an unrepentant murderer, attempted prison escapee, racist, neo-nazi, historical revisionist and general asshole. 

That doesn't mean I can't listen to his music and enjoy it. What it means is, if I'm going to buy a CD of his music, I will make the effort to do so in a way that doesn't benefit Varg - I will buy it secondhand, or I will simply pirate it, so that he doesn't get my money. Because he doesn't deserve my money.

But I am still quite able to listen to whatever I damn well please, and condemn the people who made it as horrible people. The two are not exclusive.


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## Vres (Feb 15, 2016)

GuitarBizarre said:


> What it means is, if I'm going to buy a CD of his music, I will make the effort to do so in a way that doesn't benefit Varg - I will buy it secondhand, or I will simply pirate it, so that he doesn't get my money. Because he doesn't deserve my money.


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## GuitarBizarre (Feb 15, 2016)

Crescendo said:


>


I mean, he's released a tabletop RPG recently too - not buying that either. Partially because it's rubbish, partially because it's racist as all hell, and partially because even though I'm sort of perversely interested, I know the option (probably) exists for me to obtain it via some other means that will give Varg none of my hard earned.

Stark contrast to say, Steven Wilson's music, that I willingly pay for every time he releases something.


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