# Live double tracking effect



## Jamin (Oct 26, 2010)

Just did a quick search, but I didn't manage to find any discussions about this yet...

Basically, I'm looking to achieve the sound you get when you double track a guitar, but live. I've asked around at a couple guitar shops, but they never really quite get what I'm talking about. I am not looking for a harmony effect. The sound I am interested in is when the same guitar part is played twice, hard panned left and right...but achieved live with only one guitar player.

I know there are a few things the effect would have to do:

*1* - Most importantly, stereo output; which would likely mean a two-amp set up.
*2* - Second, I think the way most people fake a doubled track in the studio is to delay it or offset it by a few milliseconds. I've read mostly from about 5-50 milliseconds. Depending on your ear I guess. But a short delay alone isn't enough, as it just kind of sounds like you're playing in a big tin room.
*3* - When you double track, you never _really_ play each note identically, so there are very slight variations in the timbre, timing (covered by the slight delay), volume and pitch, which is what makes double tracking sound so damn cool.

I know an obvious solution would be a looper, but that involves having to play a bar or two first to create the loop, then play the same thing along with it after. I could see this getting quite annoying. A similar option would be to have the entire track in a loop, but where's the fun in that. Might as well have two going at the same time, drop the guitar and walk away 

Something that's caught my eye is the Boss PS-5 Super Shifter, as it has stereo output, a 'detune' feature, which might be useful for the slight variation in the doubled part, and a delay function as well to offset the timing. Although I haven't tried one, so...it might be a piece of shit? Or maybe it's awesome? Or an awesome piece of shit?

Are there any stomp boxes similar or a better option than this one, that might be able to do this? Has anyone here ever achieved decent results when trying to replicate the double-tracked sound live (in real-time, no loops)? I'm not sure if this is what a chorus is supposed to do, but chorus pedals still don't sound like double-tracking. I know Dimebag had an MXR flanger/doubler...would one of those do it?

Thanks in advance for any help with this! What would we do without sevenstring.org?


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## silentrage (Oct 26, 2010)

I'm thinking the easiest way would be to have 2 amps, 1 with a multifx unit in the loop which adds delay, detune, or any other effects you may need, perhaps some slight chorus, reverb, anything to make the sound different, then you output the 2 signals to a stereo 412 or a pair of cabs.


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## Jamin (Oct 26, 2010)

Yeah, I would for sure need two amps and two separate cabs I think, just to have decent stereo separation (maybe at least 10' apart?), the same as two guitar players would. I'm not sure if just a stereo cab would cut it.

I remember reading somewhere that Marten Hagstrom from Meshuggah uses a very short delay during Fredrik's solos, just to thicken up the rhythm part a bit, then switches it off when Fredrik jumps back in. Of course, I can't find the article again.

I've also found this line 6 amp that has a double tracker effect in it:
Vettaville - Line 6 Vetta: "Double Tracker Explained" by Nathan Shane

Although, I'm not sure how well it works...and I can't say I've liked the few line6 amps I've tried/heard, but I'm sure they have their good and bad like any other manufacturer. YouTube never really does any amp or effect any justice, so I'd have to try it out for real.


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## darren (Oct 26, 2010)

The easiest way to get a bigger, more three-dimensional sound is to just split your signal with a stereo chorus pedal and run the two outputs of that into the inputs of two different amps. Chorusing is essentially a slight delay and detune, and when you run it in stereo, you'll get a subtle spread. Just keep the effect to a minimum so you don't get too swirly.


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## Rook (Oct 26, 2010)

You don't need two amps!

Get a delay pedal, set the mix and feedback moderately high and the delay time to about 7ms, this will make it sound like there are two guitars playing. Job done.

If JP says so, it must be true, lol.



PS John mentions specifically what I'm referring to around 6:30, but most of the video is about how he makes his guitar sound layered.


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## JPhoenix19 (Oct 26, 2010)

I've seen some people on the fractal forum talking about an effect on the Axe-Fx where you can set a variable delay, like the delay will be anywhere between X and Y milliseconds. If I understood this correctly, then that variable delay and light chorus would be your ticket.


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## 4Eyes (Oct 27, 2010)

what about eventide pitchfactor? there is micropitch effect which does exactly what you need - adds few cents of detuning and few ms of delay the the notes you play, it's stereo..


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## Jamin (Oct 27, 2010)

darren said:


> The easiest way to get a bigger, more three-dimensional sound is to just split your signal with a stereo chorus pedal and run the two outputs of that into the inputs of two different amps. Chorusing is essentially a slight delay and detune, and when you run it in stereo, you'll get a subtle spread. Just keep the effect to a minimum so you don't get too swirly.



Yeah, the 'swirly' part of the chorus is what I thought would be a problem with it. Although, maybe you can set a chorus not to have so much of a sweeping wave/flange sound? That's why I figured it might be easier to use an effect that doesn't even have that characteristic at all (the pitch shift would be detune/delay minus the swirly).

I'll have to try out the Eventide Pitchfactor too, although it is a little heavy on the price tag, especially for what I'd use it for.

If I understand it correctly, variable delay sounds interesting...it would add a little more 'randomness' to the delay and might sound more natural if the delay was anywhere between something like 5-10 ms and never at a static time. Any other stompboxes around that have this feature?

Also, thanks *Fun111* for the YouTube vid. Very interesting. JP does look a little bit like JC, so he must be telling the truth  That's pretty much the same idea behind what Marten does with Meshuggah. You say I don't need two amps...but I would have figured someone like JP would use like 12 amps live?


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## Rook (Oct 27, 2010)

Jamin said:


> Also, thanks *Fun111* for the YouTube vid. Very interesting. JP does look a little bit like JC, so he must be telling the truth  That's pretty much the same idea behind what Marten does with Meshuggah. You say I don't need two amps...but I would have figured someone like JP would use like 12 amps live?



He uses three heads, yes, lol, but I've done this exact thing with my UV and Roadster h/s, it went from sounding big to sounding MASSIVE. I use a DL4, the Eventide stuff's a bit over-engineered for me. I will attempt to do a video of it but my digital camera sound quality is rather sh!te. Either way I really wouldn't recommend going with the PitchFactor unless you're gunna get some serious use out of it. A friend of mine has one and though a lot of the modes are very amusing and hours of noodling fun, I've never found a patch I'd actually want to put to some live use...


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## Soubi7string (Oct 27, 2010)

Digitech Harmony Man can do that and then add a delay pedal to it and that should layer it quite a bit
I use the Harmony man for when our lead guitarist goes into solos and I need to thicken my tone and give off the effect that theres two guitarists playing under the solo


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## Jamin (Oct 27, 2010)

Soubi7string said:


> Digitech Harmony Man can do that and then add a delay pedal to it and that should layer it quite a bit
> I use the Harmony man for when our lead guitarist goes into solos and I need to thicken my tone and give off the effect that theres two guitarists playing under the solo



Thanks for the suggestion! The more pedals I can try, the better. Although, one drawback is, like you said, I would have to add a delay pedal. And, the Harmony Man goes for ~$300, while the Boss PS-5 is ~$150 AND already has a short delay function (I think all the way to about 93 ms or something, which is more than enough). But...maybe the Harmony Man does a better job overall when processing the sound? Guess I'll just have to try them both.


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## Soubi7string (Oct 27, 2010)

where are you gettin your pedals dude?!
i got my harmony man for 140$ new at GC


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## SargeantVomit (Oct 27, 2010)

You should still stack the cabs on top of each other or else you might run into comb filtering problems especially if you're tuned down. Then instead of filling the sound out you'll only be muddying it up. Always vertical alignment.


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## Jamin (Oct 28, 2010)

Soubi7string said:


> where are you gettin your pedals dude?!
> i got my harmony man for 140$ new at GC



Well...I am in Canada, so...I figure everything will be more expensive here, for some reason. Even on eBay the harmony man is $250-$300. Are you talking GC as in Guitars, Musical Instruments, and Musical Equipment from Guitar Center ? It says they are shipping to Canada now, but I did a search for harmony man and nothing came up. Nothing even for 'digitech'.



SargeantVomit said:


> You should still stack the cabs on top of each other or else you might run into comb filtering problems especially if you're tuned down. Then instead of filling the sound out you'll only be muddying it up. Always vertical alignment.



This is interesting...is it the same sort of problem as phasing? I would have figured it would be the same as two guitar players having two amps going on stage, but then again there would be many more subtle differences between their playing as opposed to the simulation. Do you think comb filtering would be less of a problem with the slight detune in the delayed copy? At least that way the signals wouldn't be identical. JP doesn't mention anything about it in the YouTube vid a few posts up  I guess he doesn't give a shit, his guitar tech can deal with it.


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## Variant (Oct 28, 2010)

4Eyes said:


> what about eventide pitchfactor? there is micropitch effect which does exactly what you need - adds few cents of detuning and few ms of delay the the notes you play, it's stereo..



 Argreed. The best way to do it is to have something to a slight (~10 - 15 ms, any more sounds sloppy to my ears) time shift on one side, and pitch it up a few cents... that is not as an echo effect, 100% mix, 0% regeneration. If you've got a dual amp rig (or X3/HD/Axe-FX with dual tone paths), you can vary the tone settings a bit, not too drastically mind you, on each side to build sufficient width, maybe some slightly different reverbs too. The time shift itself will crate the biggest effect, though.


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## Soubi7string (Oct 28, 2010)

Jamin said:


> Well...I am in Canada, so...I figure everything will be more expensive here, for some reason. Even on eBay the harmony man is $250-$300. Are you talking GC as in Guitars, Musical Instruments, and Musical Equipment from Guitar Center ? It says they are shipping to Canada now, but I did a search for harmony man and nothing came up. Nothing even for 'digitech'.
> 
> 
> 
> This is interesting...is it the same sort of problem as phasing? I would have figured it would be the same as two guitar players having two amps going on stage, but then again there would be many more subtle differences between their playing as opposed to the simulation. Do you think comb filtering would be less of a problem with the slight detune in the delayed copy? At least that way the signals wouldn't be identical. JP doesn't mention anything about it in the YouTube vid a few posts up  I guess he doesn't give a shit, his guitar tech can deal with it.



Yeah dude, Guitar Center.
Good shit for Cheap


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## myampslouder (Oct 30, 2010)

I used to use and old boss harmonist for a similar effect worked pretty well from what I can remember.


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## Inazone (Nov 1, 2010)

I've used a few different things to achieve a dual-guitar effect - Boss DD-3, ART Xtreme and Digitech Whammy/Wah to name a few - but that wasn't in a true stereo setup. There have already been some good suggestions, but I'll throw out another one:

A stereo power amp that can accept two inputs and route them to separate cabs should do what you want. You can keep your rig relatively simple, either by using two preamps or a stereo preamp, and something to put a chorus or detune effect on one channel. You can set the effect to 100% "wet" on that channel, so that none of the original "dry" signal comes through; that would be strictly on the other channel.

If you were to use two amps, an A/B/Y box would let you route your clean guitar signal to two different amps, each with its own tone. Depending on which you want to me more prominent in the mix (your "favorite" if you will) you could get a relatively cheap/small/lightweight amp for the "accompanying" sound.

Whatever you decide on, post back here to let us know how it works out.


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## Jamin (Nov 2, 2010)

Yeah, that's what I was planning on doing, keeping my old 150W solid state Marshall combo I have now, and using it as the accompanying delay amp. I'm thinking of picking up an Engl Fireball 100. I hear good things about them, but there's only one Engl dealer in Ontario, so I've gotta wait until their shipment arrives to try one out. Not sure how well it will blend with my current amp though  The Engl will likely murder my poor little Marshall.

Another problem I've thought of is when switching between clean and distorted channels on both amps at the same time. Might have to practice tap dancing, or place foot switches in such a way that I can easily hit both simultaneously.

I went into a local shop recently and tried out the Boss PS-5 Super Shifter I mentioned in previous posts, and it really seems like it will do the job. It does everything I need; slight detune, slight delay, and stereo out with balance control. I'm wondering though, will I need some sort of clean boost to make sure both amps are getting full signal?

Thanks again for everyone's input!


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## petereanima (Nov 2, 2010)

I played a few gigs earlier that year with a stereo setup when we reduced our band to 1 guitarrist (me), i used my usual Diezel Herbert - Krank 412 setup on one side, and i splitted the signal right after the Diezels preamp, went from effect send to my multi-fx, used a slight delay (8 ms iirc) and just a BIT of detune and went from there to the Mesa DualRectifiers poweramp and Framus Dragon 412.

Long story short - while it was fun and esp. at the rehearsals the tone was indeed crushing...99,5% of the audience wont even notice it, and i decided for myself that it wasnt worth the immense extra cash and ESPECCIALLY the howling all this stuff around, getting quick setup on stage etc.etc....let alone the stepdance i had to do for some parts (we had some stereo parts in the past where for a short time 1 guit plays a riff, second one is silent, and then vice versa...you know that thing).

I now use my "single" setup only again...and whenever there is a second cab backline, i use that too (because i bought a long-ass of an speaker cable  ), and with it beeing mic'd different, its almost the same effect as the whole stereo-rig thing...but muchmuch easier to handle.


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## Jamin (Nov 2, 2010)

Haha, yeah, it's crossed my mind that it could just be a waste of time and a huge pain to set up and that no one will really notice the effect. But another part of me feels that listeners are still hearing it, just not consciously, and if you were to take the effect away, then it would finally be noticed. I guess it's sort of like tweaking your EQ, or a drummer playing subtle accents...no one but the trained listener will really be aware of it, but it can make a huge difference.

I currently edit videos for a living, and I read/heard somewhere that if an editor is doing a good job, no one will notice it (since you want seamless cuts and good flow, etc.). If you were to make bad cuts, people would definitely notice and it would make the video less appealing, even if they can't pinpoint the reason why.


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## petereanima (Nov 2, 2010)

Yeah man, i totally thought the same - 

it was just such a HUGE pita, you know - 99% of our concerts are that we are like in between of all bands, so we dont have much time to get the setup done...and for that its just not worth it, also as we reduced to 1 guitarist only its more worth it that i can simply "rock out" on stage. 2 cabs, miced differently, gets already a good "second" sound, like a reamped, phase-corrected track instead of a "real" double-tracked guitar - and i can again focus on my stage presence instead on the tapdance haha...

But again - i didnt want to argue all agianst your plan, i just want to state that its really worth thinking twice!


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## Jamin (Nov 2, 2010)

Hey, no worries! That's why this thread is here, right? Learn from each other's experience. I think it's definitely something that's not for everyone, and I'll just have to try it out. If I can simplify the routine of setup then I can use it all the time, but if it the pros of the sound do not outweigh the cons of setup, then it will only be used time-permitting.


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## James Blood (Nov 2, 2010)

Hi Peter,
after having witnessed your sound on saturday I say it is not worth the hassle!

Your tone really crushes man!


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## Soubi7string (Nov 3, 2010)

our crowd notices when the effect is on and off.I guess its all on the levels of the pedals on it.If you use the DD-3 and keep it on all the time it will strengthen the tone and will sooner than later sound more full.The use of the digitech harmony man is good for Octave chords and solos and single note riffing.Its all about setting up the pedals and knowing when and when not to use them.This is all achieved by tinkering with the settings.Overall it comes down to the choice of using it.


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## petereanima (Nov 3, 2010)

James Blood said:


> Hi Peter,
> after having witnessed your sound on saturday I say it is not worth the hassle!
> 
> Your tone really crushes man!



Thank you!!  

And i can honestly return that compliment.


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## Jamin (Nov 3, 2010)

Careful now...the mods might jump in and ban you guys for flirting


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## Soubi7string (Nov 3, 2010)

Jamin said:


> Careful now...the mods might jump in and ban you guys for flirting



lolz


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