# Wintersun's Groundhog's Day Thread



## jvms

Just posted it on Facebook today: https://www.facebook.com/jari.maenpaawintersun/posts/749357125123132



> Reality Update About Crowd Funding, TIME II And Future Albums
> I´m very happy to see that we have so much dedicated fans that would be willing to pledge and be a part of funding a studio for Wintersun, so I could make the next Wintersun album without it taking another 10 years again.
> I´ve been thinking about this Kickstarter/Pledge crowd funding thing for a while and I´m very confident now that there is enough of you guys that would help us raise the money for the Wintersun studio! This would give me the freedom to make music efficiently and nonstop. It would eliminate lot of the problems I´ve struggled with all my life and still continue to struggle everyday. For example right now I need a studio to reamp guitars for TIME II. And not just any studio, my own studio where I can craft my sounds exactly like I want them. 3rd party studios have never worked for me and I´ve never gotten satisfactory results for the insane prices they charge.
> I live in a small shitty apartment building and I have neighbors. It is very very hard to work like this. I can´t record vocals, I can´t practise my singing, I can´t record guitars, I can´t record guitars even with modelling amps, because the electricity is so bad in this shitty building so I get lots of interference, I even play and practise the electric guitar acoustically without an amp 99% of the time in my home, I can´t record drums or basically any acoustic instruments, I don´t have the room or cool space for a big computer farm which is a must for the orchestrations for the next album (the place is too small and hot even for the one computer I have), I can´t mix properly, ´cause the room is so bad and there´s always ambient noise in and outside the building. That´s why I usually turn my sleeping rhythm around and mix at nights, but that causes problems in my everyday life. I can´t do pretty much anything properly in this situation. Building a professional studio for Wintersun would erase all this and give us the freedom to make music nonstop. It would upgrade our album sound significantly and most importantly speed up the album making process significantly. This would even raise our live game. With proper preproduction, able to tweak our live sounds and setup properly we would sound pretty incredible live. We would also be able to rehearse more and that would allow us to be able to play live more often and come to places where we normally have not been able to come. The studio would allow us to have more time for everything.
> But the problem is this. I have a record deal with Nuclear Blast. If I would do a Kickstarter with a downloadable album for example, they would come with lawyers and take % share (more than half) away from the money that is your money meant for the Wintersun studio and the album production. Would you even want to pledge if Wintersun didn´t get 100% of the money you´ve pledged for the album production? Then our management would take their % share away. Then there´s taxes of course. The Finnish government would take something like 40% away. This would leave me nothing. I would be totally screwed. I´ve been trying to have a discussion with Nuclear Blast about crowd funding, but they are totally freaking out. They see the crowd funding as a threat to their business and they would rather see Wintersun dead, than me doing a crowd funding. I think this would not hurt them at all, only benefit them, but they cannot see the big picture of Wintersun doing well. They actually told me point blank that I should just stop making music and they will never release Wintersun from the contract. It´s really like this, because they can´t or won´t loan me enough money to build a studio and fund an album, they don´t want other people (the fans) to fund it either&#8230; unless they get a crazy big cut of the funding (for doing absolutely nothing).
> This is the way a record deal works: The label gives an advance to make an album. This is a loan and they will recoup every penny back from the record sales. The reason why TIME I&II has taken so long to make (and still is taking long to finish TIME II), is because I haven´t gotten enough advances (money) to make these complex albums. Not even close. So I´ve been struggling all these years and sacrificed everything to make these albums. I have never really made any money from Wintersun. All my money has gone to album production, but you can guess who have made tons of money from Wintersun. The point is that I need my own studio to make the future albums, but Nuclear Blast won´t be able to loan enough money to make that happen and then they won´t allow me to do a crow funding campaign either that would make it happen. And even if Nuclear Blast would be able to loan me the money for the studio, our management would take their share of that money and I would get only part of the money, but I would still have to pay back 100% to Nuclear Blast from the record sales. So I would actually lose big chunk of the album production money straight away, which makes no sense at all. And then there´s the taxes. So there´s no point of taking these &#8220;loans&#8221; either.
> This all is stressing me out very badly and it´s slowing my workflow. I´ve got enough technical problems to deal with making these albums. I just want the freedom to make music, but I guess it is what it is. Honestly, I feel like I´ve signed a deal with the devil and I´m just a slave in the system.
> I´ve got probably 5 long albums worth of new insanely good material! And there´s no filler material at all! The music is much more refined, much more advanced in arrangement/composition/productionwise. It´s diverse and beautiful, heavy, chaotic and exploring different styles&themes and some new dimensions I feel no band has explored before&#8230; The stuff is simply on another level, in a different universe than the debut album and the TIME albums combined. I wrote the TIME albums around 2006 and before, that was a lifetime ago. Think of the stuff I´ve written ever since to this day! And I just keep on writing, I feel like I´m on fire. The music is just flowing out of me. I´m so excited about all this new music and I can´t wait to start recording and sharing it with you&#8230; BUT I can´t without a studio, that´s the problem&#8230;
> Jari
> p.s. Should have stayed working in the post office!



That's ....ing horrible, Wintersun has gotta be one of the best bands in activity nowadays. But to be fair, I'd really like hear the label's version of this story, for justice's sake...
also, I don't know much about recording and producing, I'm a begginer at it, but what is keeping Jari from getting a good tone on rented studios. Good gear (his Mesas fit the bill), nice acoustics and mics aren't enough to get a good sound? What is missing? and also, what else could he need to record his music? I know it's really complex and has a lot of orchestrations, but isn't a good PC or Mac capable of running a lot of VSTs enough to get a decent production? I'm not trying to be an asshole, or being sarcastic, I'm totally on Jari's side here, as I ....ing love his work, but it would be really nice if you could school me on what he needs so much...


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## p0ke

jvms said:


> Just posted it on Facebook today
> 
> 
> 
> That's ....ing horrible, Wintersun has gotta be one of the best bands in activity nowadays. But to be fair, I'd really like hear the label's version of this story, for justice's sake...
> also, I don't know much about recording and producing, I'm a begginer at it, but what is keeping Jari from getting a good tone on rented studios. Good gear (his Mesas fit the bill), nice acoustics and mics aren't enough to get a good sound? What is missing? and also, what else could he need to record his music? I know it's really complex and has a lot of orchestrations, but isn't a good PC or Mac capable of running a lot of VSTs enough to get a decent production? I'm not trying to be an asshole, or being sarcastic, I'm totally on Jari's side here, as I ....ing love his work, but it would be really nice if you could school me on what he needs so much...



I've been thinking the same, and I've kind of come to the conclusion that he simply doesn't know what he's doing well enough, so it takes a really long time to do everything. He gets awesome results in the end, but it takes ten years each time  
What I would do if I were Jari, is that I would get a normal job that pays fairly well (I don't know what his education is though, so it might be kinda hard), and start saving to buy a house somewhere a bit away from the city. Then, once he has the house he can start building the studio slowly, doing as much as possible by himself or with the help of some friends. I'm sure he could get some fans to help out as well, I'm sure there are Wintersun fans working in construction etc. who would be willing to help out  Then, once everything is done, he can focus 100% on his music. I do of course realize that this would be a project for the next ten years or so, but I'd say it's completely worth it. Also, it doesn't mean he can't keep working on music at the same time, it will be even slower than it is now, but still.


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## dax21

He should man the f**k up and leave mixing to people who know how to do it properly.

Would you rather take 15 years per album via DIY method or do it like pretty much every functional band does (and there are some bands that also have shitton of layered, crammed-up instruments and orchestrations) and put out those 5 albums of "unheard material that sounds like nothing else" while you are still young and able to play live?

At some point you just have to stop blaming others for your own incompetence. No offense to Jari. I understand the strife for perfection, that belief that nobody can do your music justice like you want, but come on.

Not even gonna comment on the fact that he is bitching about having a record deal with NB.


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## Xaios

Time II - It's the new Time. 

I kid of course, and I feel bad for Jari. However, I think some of his problems are of his own making. Time I sounded fantastic, but he's not the only person to ever record a fantastic sounding album before. At times he sounds like "only I can do this, no one else could possibly achieve results that would satisfy me." But just look at how many albums have come out of Studio Fredman with absolutely stellar sounding guitars.

EDIT: 'd.


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## ilyti

What Jari really needs to solve his problem is to ask from among his fans if any one person wants to volunteer their TIME and ENERGY to help him come up with solutions to his studio space. Not ask for money. Nuclear Blast can't get involved or demand any money if there's no money involved.

Here: the Wintersun fanbase can 'elect' someone who can help him. They can discuss it on the band's official forum, or on Facebook, or somewhere else. The fans can pledge money towards the "fixer's" airplane ticket to Finland. It's all 3rd party.. Nuclear Blast is not involved and can't demand anything. I really think that would work.

EDIT: Yeah I am going to post this idea on FB.


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## Xaios

ilyti said:


> What Jari really needs to solve his problem is to ask from among his fans if any one person wants to volunteer their TIME and ENERGY to help him come up with solutions to his studio space. Not ask for money. Nuclear Blast can't get involved or demand any money if there's no money involved.
> 
> Here: the Wintersun fanbase can 'elect' someone who can help him. They can discuss it on the band's official forum, or on Facebook, or somewhere else. The fans can pledge money towards the "fixer's" airplane ticket to Finland. It's all 3rd party.. Nuclear Blast is not involved and can't demand anything. I really think that would work.
> 
> EDIT: Yeah I am going to post this idea on FB.



Another idea would be to contact a reputable studio who would be willing to partake in a "raise funds so that we can record Wintersun's album for free" type deal. The difference being that the money goes to the studio instead of Wintersun, so Nuclear Blast has no sway, same as above. All the expenses can be in the studio's name.


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## ilyti

Some people mentioned trying to get in touch with Devin Townsend. I think that's a good idea too. He is really high profile and has a lot of expertise, and I'm sure would help somehow if he was asked.


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## HurrDurr

Yeah, If a third party come up with the idea and raise the money to have Jari produce his music somehow, NB can't have anything to say about that aside from take their share of album sales from releasing his material under their label. Or, he could take NB's advice and stop making music... _*as Wintersun*_. They said they don't care if he makes more music or not, but that they were not going to relinquish their rights to the Wintersun brand and its catalogue, so 'disband' Wintersun and release those 5 albums of material under some other name as a different name and crowd fund that as your own project, free of the labels and as a DIY venture.


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## Adam Of Angels

I don't see how the label could touch it if Jari and co. start a fundraiser for a studio of their own, having nothing to do with the Wintersun name.


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## mgh

do we really believe that NB wouldn't fund a couple of weeks in a proper studio with a proper engineer/producer? we're not talking a bedroom label here. Jari really needs to get the band together, rehearse the songs, go and lay down the actual played instruments and vocals in a week and then worry about the orchestral stuff. 
it makes you wonder if he actually has the songs ready at all...it sounds more like he's one of us, dicking around and adding riffs as they come to us...


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## ilyti

I really don't think that's true. I do think he is whinging quite a lot but I don't think he's lying. 

Remember when Time I was still being written/recorded years ago (circa 2006-7)? Jari's computer broke and a bunch of fans gave him some money for a new computer. He didn't ask, he just explained his problem. And he avoided accepting the fans charity back then - what he decided in the end was to accept the money but to give those contributors something special, like autographed stuff and t shirts IIRC. It seems he's kinda in the same boat as last time. But I'm not sure exactly, he may not have been with NB in those days.

In the end I'm sure the fans will come to his rescue somehow, but it does feel a little stupid. He probably avoided posting this thing on FB for a whole year because he was afraid people would think badly of him. But he really thinks he has no other choice. The fans love him and want his music. 

He just needs to get out of that NB contract by whatever means necessary, and stay independent. Crowdfund your albums, and sell the music directly to the fans.


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## spawnofthesith

The easiest solution is to just release the rest of his music independently under a different name than Wintersun


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## Adam Of Angels

^ Yeah, if the new material is so much more evolved and sophisticated than Wintersun, call it something else. I would welcome such a thing, honestly - good music is good music.


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## ilyti

Of course his problem goes deeper than just troubles with being locked into a contract. Just getting out of that won't solve the problem of his crappy apartment and inability to record properly.


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## Zalbu

What I'm wondering right off the bat is how/if Nuclear Blast are going to respond to this post.



> I´ve been trying to have a discussion with Nuclear Blast about crowd funding, but they are totally freaking out. They see the crowd funding as a threat to their business and they would rather see Wintersun dead, than me doing a crowd funding. I think this would not hurt them at all, only benefit them, but they cannot see the big picture of Wintersun doing well. They actually told me point blank that I should just stop making music and they will never release Wintersun from the contract. It´s really like this, because they can´t or won´t loan me enough money to build a studio and fund an album, they don´t want other people (the fans) to fund it either&#8230; unless they get a crazy big cut of the funding (for doing absolutely nothing).


That's a really f'in shitty thing to do, assuming that Jari isn't lying. I wonder if NB would change their minds if this post manages to generate enough backlash against them or if it'll only screw over Jari even further?

And besides, can NB even demand to take money from a potential fundraiser? Can't Jari just collect money without mentioning Wintersun and put that money towards a studio?


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## TedEH

ilyti said:


> Some people mentioned trying to get in touch with Devin Townsend.



So far this seems like the smartest thing to me. Not only does the Dev have good production skills as far as I can tell, he's certainly no stranger to cranking out tons of material in a timely manner.


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## abandonist

Musician complains about not having money/time/whatever. 

Welcome to being alive.


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## Petef2007

Its a long read, but THIS 

http://www.thatsnotmetal.com/2013/01/taking-forever-to-produce-material-ha.html

sums up nearly everything I wanted to say about Jari's post.


Yes its shitty of NB (assuming this is true) to be doing the things they're supposedly doing, and its shitty that Jari is in the position hes in, but as others have said i'm not sure how NB could touch a kickstarter if Jari starts on in his own name with nothing whatsoever to do with the Wintersun name.

Also, i'm sure if he just cut down on stuff he'd get things done so much faster. Anyone watched the project demonstration video for "Sons Of Winter And Stars"? I'd say a good 80% of the background layers - especially in the vocal section - you can't actually hear on the damn cd anyway. 

I get perfectionism, but come on. Know your limits. Jari gets a pc now and I almost guarantee in 5 years it won't be enough for what he wants, somehow.


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## Icecold

Sounds like a job for Dan "The Man" Swano.


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## Chiba666

I'm sure I read that when his Laptop broke, a record Label paid for a new Alptop but Wintersun had to tour some of teh festival sos they could recoup theitr costs. I could be wrong but I'm sure I read that somewhere.

More than happy to donate if it measn Time 2 will see the light of day. Spent alot of time in hospital listening to Time 1 and watching the DVDs.

Saw Jari at Tuska this year in the VIP tent he was with is it MArcus from Ensiferum, (show I saw on the Fri adn the Sat) but as they were chating and with freinds I decided not to go all stalker on them adn left them to have some fun.


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## OmegaSlayer

I think more than some guys around here have signed a deal and made a record.
There's nothing strange nor evil in what Nuclear Blast did.
Nuclear Blast, like every other label, makes an investment out of which they want to get back the more money they can.
You might like it or not, but that's reality.

The lack of experience from your own self or your own band is what screws you deeply.
I obviously empathize with a musician that want to release his art in the best possible way, but I can't empathize with the monster ego that let Jari feel like he DESERVES something.


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## fantom

I'm a huge fan of Wintersun, but NB has about 15 legs to stand on here, just in case 13 of them break. They are getting shafted on the deal, not Jari. Jari has not demonstrated that he is capable of mixing an album in a timely fashion, why the hell should NB fund a studio for him? You guys remember what happens to builders like BRJ around here right? I wouldn't give the man a dime without a finished CD. Jari, while good, is too slow for the business world. He should give the raw tracks to a professional and stick to his actual talent, which is writing music. I'm pretty sure a lot of people would try to mix it for free just to bring in more business. And NB would probably pay to get the album mixed and out the door now.


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## Chiba666

Some good points there but the man wants to keep complete control of his artistic vision, there is nothing woring with that.


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## bioniczero

This is ridiculous. NB have likely given him an advance that he has spent, then he is complaining that he has no money to do the album. 

NB have every right to demand a cut of any money he makes. That's the purpose of a record label. If an alternative method of releasing/funding albums comes along and you have a record deal already, too bad, you signed a contract. 

To take to the internet and complain about the situation smacks of "everyone give me what I want because I can't be bothered to do it myself".


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## OmegaSlayer

My experience...which goes back to the late 90s

I was offered some contracts for my first album.

I played power metal and one of the contract was one of the biggest and most historic Deutsch power metal label of the 80s (now bankrupt).
Their contract stated that they would have funded the recordings for a month in a studio of our choice in Germany (we were from Italy), accomodation in place, mixing, promotion and distribution WORLDWIDE.
For us...nothing, except some little bonus like gears vouchers or tattoos vouchers.
(This tattoos voucher is some kind of common thing since I know for certain that the band payment for the record Covenant - Nexus Polaris was indeed tattoos vouchers)

Another contract for an Italian label on which our record would have been the first record said that we had to pay the recording/studio and mixing and they would have published and distributed it in Europe and Japan with help from local labels.
BUT we would have had our share of money for each copy sold.

My band mates decided to go for the money.
I wasn't sure about that deal and didn't want to pay money to record, and my bandmates covered my part since I was the only songwriter.
Aaaaaaaaaaaanyway...with the money we gathered we could only book a small local studios for one week.
The recording had to be done very quickly (mistakes included), an average of 1 day per instrument (sound research included) and 1 day for the final mix.

Our record sounds like utter shit, no matter how good the songs might have been, they sound like a total mess, with some sections that are even hard to figure out.
A record that for me is still a personal shame almost 20 years later.

As small metal artists, we must always be mentally prepared that unless we have a luckshot, there's no way we'll make loads of money with our music, and searching desperately for money with metal is a path that very often leads to self destruction.
Our genre is usually built on sincere feelings.
So...we must make some compromise.
We don't generate an amount of money that justifies every single one of our request.
We must understand it and act with the necessary humbleness.

I don't write music anymore, but if I would be sure to have some killer stuff and my budget or the budget from my record label wouldn't be enough, I would maybe put it on a side and release it later instead of dealing with money constraints that would water down my artistic vision.

Good music age perfectly, so you can release it in another moment.

Maybe Jari should have understood that the times weren't ripe for what he had in mind.
Times not being ripe doesn't mean you're a lesser musician, but just that your environment doesn't allow you to make things right.
And...you can't vent on internet for your lack of foresight.


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## Asrial

Time II being expensive is one thing, but...


> But the problem is this. I have a record deal with Nuclear Blast. If I would do a Kickstarter with a downloadable album for example,* they would come with lawyers and take % share (more than half) away from the money that is your money meant for the Wintersun studio and the album production.* Would you even want to pledge if Wintersun didn´t get 100% of the money you´ve pledged for the album production? Then our management would take their % share away. Then there´s taxes of course. The Finnish government would take something like 40% away. This would leave me nothing. I would be totally screwed. I´ve been trying to have a discussion with Nuclear Blast about crowd funding, but they are totally freaking out. They see the crowd funding as a threat to their business and they would rather see Wintersun dead, than me doing a crowd funding. I think this would not hurt them at all, only benefit them, but they cannot see the big picture of Wintersun doing well. *They actually told me point blank that I should just stop making music and they will never release Wintersun from the contract.* It´s really like this, because they can´t or won´t loan me enough money to build a studio and fund an album, they don´t want other people (the fans) to fund it either&#8230; unless they get a crazy big cut of the funding (for doing absolutely nothing).


THAT is scummy beyond measure.

He should be able to fund the missing money from a kickstarter, since NB already has poured money on him. They are only gaining stuff if they allow him to kickstart, release his album, then release the contract. They're using so much time (lol) and money (lolx2) on this entire ordeal, and eventually it's a court settlement which just hurts all over.
Not a single record company wants to touch Wintersun with a 100 foot pole after this, but at least he can do what he wants.


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## Fred the Shred

It's just him venting pertaining the difficulties that he faces even with massive hordes of fans ready and willing to crowd fund the studio.

Honestly, in his place I'd just find ways to circumvent said issues, and the suggestion of the designated studio doing the crowd funding project instead of Wintersun looks like a very good one in that respect. As long as his or the band's name are tied to whatever endeavour, both management and publisher will have a say and, more often than not, act in either a conservative manner or simply extract profit from it.


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## OmegaSlayer

Fred the Shred said:


> It's just him venting pertaining the difficulties that he faces even with massive hordes of fans ready and willing to crowd fund the studio.
> *
> Honestly, in his place I'd just find ways to circumvent said issues, and the suggestion of the designated studio doing the crowd funding project instead of Wintersun looks like a very good one in that respect. *As long as his or the band's name are tied to whatever endeavour, both management and publisher will have a say and, more often than not, act in either a conservative manner or simply extract profit from it.



Such a good idea after you vented with the whole World. 
Trust me, Nuclear Blast won't let this thing slip and he won't find many big labels offering him a contract.
I seriously can't imagine what a hassle might be for the record label to deal with Jari missing his milestones and losing money.
The labels make yearly plans for their releases, to spread them over, and not pitting band x and band y of the same label roster.
A band missing a milestone (demo, production, mixing, packaging) messes the plans for other bands too.
There are stories that you don't read in magazines, neither online nor the paper ones, but that people that has contacts knows.
(One story...Nuclear Blast had basically signed Dark Tranquillity after the deal with Osmose.
Projector was already written, but NB wanted DT to scrap the record and make a new one from scratch, in the end DT signed with Century Media)
Jari is doing seppuku with this vent.


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## Fred the Shred

In terms of labels, half his post chosen at random would be utter suicide no matter what!


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## Lorcan Ward

Damn that was very disheartening to read. Wintersun are one of my favourite bands and its such a shame to see him struggling like this. 



Adam Of Angels said:


> I don't see how the label could touch it if Jari and co. start a fundraiser for a studio of their own, having nothing to do with the Wintersun name.



I doubt 99% of Wintersun fans would fund a studio kickstarter where they wouldn't get anything from the band in return for their investment. Everyone would still have to go out and buy the album/merch when the album is out because of the contract with Nuclear Blast. They wouldn't be able to include any Wintersun related perks. 

I would gladly throw money at Jari to get his own studio with the perk being a future full of Wintersun albums but people will want something in return for their cash.



mgh said:


> do we really believe that NB wouldn't fund a couple of weeks in a proper studio with a proper engineer/producer? we're not talking a bedroom label here. Jari really needs to get the band together, rehearse the songs, go and lay down the actual played instruments and vocals in a week and then worry about the orchestral stuff. .



They have, several times from the looks of it. Nuclear Blast have sunk thousands into studio time so Wintersun can get the album(s) out. Jari is a guy who needs months/years to get all the instruments together before mixing/mastering. Then before going on tour he needs to go back into the studio for rehearsing and making live backing tracks. From Nuclear Blast's perspective that is not a good investment. 

In the end they are a business and need to invest their money smartly to make a profit. The album/tour and future band expenses are on them and they need to recoup their investment through record sales. Right now they are at a loss and giving Jari a huge advance to build a studio would seem like a bad idea with his previous track record.


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## Zalbu

> Hey everyone,
> 
> We are aware of Jaris recent statement on his current situation and business experiences with Nuclear Blast regarding the most anticipated TIME II album. We highly appreciate the strong reactions this statement has caused in the metal community as it once more shows how much people care about their fellow metal heads and especially the musicians that go through many hardships to give us what we all enjoy the most: A good blast of METAL
> 
> We also have always been metal fans at heart and we still strive for the same goal we have since the formation of Nuclear Blast 27 years ago: To support our artists in the best way possible and to get the music everybody deserves out to our fans worldwide.
> 
> This being said the business side of music can often be rough and especially with a project as extensive as the TIME series compromises have to be found to make an album both beautiful and feasible to all parties involved  the musicians, the fans and the label. This process includes many things that should not be discussed in public as debates sometimes get heated and misunderstandings occur, but we take great pride in the relationship with our artists until this day.
> 
> So be assured that we all love Wintersun as much as you do  nobody at Nuclear Blast wants to see them gone and we are working together with Jari and his management to find the optimal solution for his concerns.
> 
> Stay true,
> 
> Nuclear Blast


https://www.facebook.com/nuclearblasteurope/posts/10152687484028694

That's about the response you could expect, to be honest. I'm almost surprised that it's not more harshly worded. God knows what the "optimal solution" will be, though.


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## TedEH

Given the available information, I have come to the following conclusions so far:

a) Jari is the one being unreasonable, not NB. Not only does he appear to have unreasonable expectations, but has thrown a public tantrum when not getting what he thinks he deserves. If I ran a business and someone I worked with failed to meet a deadline, and then demanded I give more money and *build them a whole private studio because the ones already paid for were not good enough*, I can't imagine any scenario where I would agree to those terms.

b) I feel that the general public (I'm talking facebook comments and the like, not so much from communities like SSO) don't realise that business and the world in general don't operate around the "ideals" and "values" that people seem to think should govern everything. Companies, even ones whose product is an art, exist for the purpose of making money, and providing jobs for people- and that doesn't make them evil.


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## Fred the Shred

Of course it doesn't. Thing is that most models are slow to adapt and work with a given context. Personally, I find it a bit megalomaniac to think a dedicated private studio is the one way to get things going to say the least, but I can easily see where the frustration comes from when you have people willing to hand you the dough and you can do .... all about it. One thing is for certain, however - giving away the album as a reward for crowd funding is nice and dandy, but if the label paid for it, then yes, they are entitled to a percentage of that.

Honestly, a bit of flexibility on the negotiation front of both parties involved (soz, Jari - they DID pay an advance for the album) would help matters no end, but public venting is just what it is, and considering the delicate subject on the table, I would probably not be firing in all directions that way.


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## ilyti

All that being said - I'd still give Jari a bit of cash just to build his studio. I don't want anything back from it except a thank you. There are still people like that in the world, believe it or not.

And regarding the idea that he's basically "committed suicide" by this "public tantrum" and no record companies would touch him with a 10 foot pole after NB is done with them (whenever that is)? GOOD. He's better off that way, any band is better off not being a slave to the corporate business side of the music industry. He's not being entitled or egotistical - he's just frustrated. He has every reason to be considering what he's been through CONSTANTLY over the last several years. Saying what's going on over FB was probably not the best way to handle it, but I'm glad to know he feels he can express himself to the fans and not be too embarrassed. 

I'm so saddened by people's lack of empathy, and jealousy when we see others asking for something or getting something they "don't deserve." Coming to the defense of a record label? What universe did I just step into? Obviously mistakes were made on both sides. But we are not directly involved. We can't judge and say "well he should have just fulfilled his end of the bargain he made with NB in the first place... even if it means sacrificing his artistic vision." Yep that's what thousands of bands have done over the years. But nobody was ever happy with it. 

If it were up to me, I'd fly over there and talk some sense into the guy about LIFE MANAGEMENT. What he needs is to find *where *he's capable of doing what he wants to fulfill his artistic vision. Change your life circumstances, a little bit at a time. Don't complain about living in a crap apartment - MOVE!! Or soundproof the room with egg boxes! Or call up all your friends and acquaintances to see if they are willing to help you (eg. Dan Swano, Devin Townsend, his old Ensiferum bandmates? Are they still friends?) Let go just a little bit of the need to be 100% in control of the mix. Find someone you trust who you can work with. Heck, go back to the post office to work a few days a week! Seriously. There are solutions.

I have a ton of empathy for the guy but he really does need to just think outside the box and not think total control and a chunk of cash is the answer. Work in small steps towards building your dream studio/home, we can wait. Jari has a ridiculous amount of determination to get what he wants accomplished, he's just focusing his efforts in the wrong place. He's like "I'm going to brood and be frustrated and all my energy will go toward putting up with my circumstances while I try to get this album finished..." until he snaps and has to complain publicly. This is the fatal flaw in many people's personality. But it doesn't stop me from feeling sorry for him, wanting to help, and wanting more music. That's what it comes down to for me.


----------



## abandonist

Dude lives on social security. He has nothing but time to get this finished. His real bone is with his life choices, not Nuclear Blast. Sounds like he has a social disorder of some kind. That's unfortunate, but you can't just insist on having things your way. 

Build him a private studio?

That's madness regardless of who funds it.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Lots of people with shitty ass computers and crappy guitars put out AMAZING sound records recorded in noisy apartments or rented rehearsal studios. If it takes that long to write a record an album, your label is ....ing stupid for continuing to pay for anything. They should drop him, offer a distribution deal IF he ever gets anything done, and wash their hands of it. Seriously, to me this sounds like a pretentious perfectionist who thinks his "art" is more deserving than anyone else's......and who needs a "computer bank" for orchestration?


----------



## jerm

They should strongly consider renting or buying a house as a band. That way they could rehearse and record all in the comfort of their own home.


----------



## Zalbu

abandonist said:


> Dude lives on social security. He has nothing but time to get this finished. His real bone is with his life choices, not Nuclear Blast. Sounds like he has a social disorder of some kind. That's unfortunate, but you can't just insist on having things your way.
> 
> Build him a private studio?
> 
> That's madness regardless of who funds it.


He is finished, he said in the post that he has like 5 albums worth of material. Problem is that he can't record it to the standard he seeks.


----------



## OmegaSlayer

TedEH said:


> Given the available information, I have come to the following conclusions so far:
> 
> a) Jari is the one being unreasonable, not NB. Not only does he appear to have unreasonable expectations, but has thrown a public tantrum when not getting what he thinks he deserves. If I ran a business and someone I worked with failed to meet a deadline, and then demanded I give more money and *build them a whole private studio because the ones already paid for were not good enough*, I can't imagine any scenario where I would agree to those terms.
> 
> b) I feel that the general public (I'm talking facebook comments and the like, not so much from communities like SSO) don't realise that business and the world in general don't operate around the "ideals" and "values" that people seem to think should govern everything. Companies, even ones whose product is an art, exist for the purpose of making money, and providing jobs for people- and that doesn't make them evil.



Not to mention that without labels like Nuclear Blast, in the best case scenario most of the "artist" would get drunk with the money they should use to record instead of being mature.
Labels give an organization, put loads of people on the right track to deliver.

Without NB (or any other label) for example, Jari would be much less than a bedroom warrior.

To reply to ilyti...people do empathize.
They empathize until the problem turns into selfish whinery, like in this case.

From this whole story what I learnt is that Jari is a great musician and a little man.


----------



## spawnofthesith

I just hope time ii, whenever it comes out, isn't so saturated with filler like time


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## Zalbu

What I still don't understand is how NB can demand to take money from a fundraiser if he doesn't use the Wintersun name. Sounds pretty shady to me if (emphasis on if) they can demand to take money from a fundraiser, no matter what the cause.


----------



## abandonist

Zalbu said:


> Problem is that he can't record it to the standard he seeks.



Bullshit.


----------



## TedEH

Zalbu said:


> What I still don't understand is how NB can demand to take money from a fundraiser if he doesn't use the Wintersun name.



I don't think we know for a fact that they did or would claim this- but arguably, I don't think it would be a stretch to come up with reasons why they could.

NB has already paid out money for this music to happen, they've made the investment and want something in return. We also don't know the details of any contracts involved. Maybe the contract is not attached to the name of the band so much as the members of the band, or to just Jari. Even if he was to make the music he wants to as an aside to Wintersun and his contracts, would he not still be obligated to record *something* for NB to sell?


----------



## Hemorrhage

Wintersun is my all time favorite band. Period. Jari is the biggest influence to me as musician.

I think that Jari lives in his own world. I can relate to him, the music I make ain't no ...ing Wintersun but the reach for perfection within the limits of my skills is driving me crazy. And it is stupid.

He is at the moment doing the music for himself and the price inflicted on other people is getting ridiculous. We would never know if the guitar sound or a sitar or w/e is different in version 1 than that it is in version 2 and we would be just as happy. Soundwise, , Time I was all that is needed. You don't need to fix something that isn't broken.

What I've heard is that he had tens, closing to hundreds versions of the riffs for Time 1. I have no reason to not believe the source I heard it from. I think the problem with the studio's provided by NBR are not good enough because of the time limit. He feels that he is all the time on the clock (which is true) and can't focus properly because of that. I feel that some of his reasoning are excuses for his inability the work under the stress and he is now barking at the wrong tree. I'd still donate to him but this propaganda war needs to stop. 

I unfortunately have to be with NBR with this one. People should stop treating him as a misunderstood genius that the evil label is now kicking to the head. Its not that simple. I'd also like to add that Jari would be nothing without the labels, nor would about 99% of the touring bands so show them some respect. DYI is great but try stay real.


----------



## Zalbu

abandonist said:


> Bullshit.


Alright, I'll take your word over his.


----------



## Icecold

ilyti said:


> All that being said - I'd still give Jari a bit of cash just to build his studio. I don't want anything back from it except a thank you. There are still people like that in the world, believe it or not.....



I said it on Facebook and I'll say it here: Do you realize how much money it costs to build and maintain a fully fledged private studio? We're not talking a couple thousand dollars here, we're talking about something that would have to take private clients to justify its existence beyond Jari's "Artistic Vision". 

Jari is not better off without label support. Crowd funding an album of his does not guarantee he would deliver. We all got mad when the guy from Rings of Saturn asked for 20 grand, imagine how much Wintersun is going to want once Jari takes a trip to a site like Sweetwater? The guy who mains a Vai signature and take 10 years to release a complete album is not looking to make a modest recording studio. 

Nuclear Blast is not standing in his way, his irrational perfectionism and his ego are what's standing in his way. Every creative person has to fight their ego every time their sit down to write something. Time in his mind is a failure because it is not the "GREATEST ALBUM EVER!" and it never will be. It was foolish of him to believe his own hype. There are books dedicated to the notion of Ego, Artist and Fear: Free Play and Effortless Mastery. As someone who has read both books and returns to them almost regularly, Jari Mäenpää has done every single thing those books tell you not to do. 

Where both parties failed was not getting a Producer to ensure these albums would get done in a timely manner. Dan Swano and Devin Townsend have created albums in their own time and by the means available to them. Are all of them great albums? Hell no, but they still finished them. Dan made Crimson II with a POD 1, a god damn POD 1, Devin made Ziltoid with DFH. Yes, both of those guys are incredible musicians and engineers, but getting things done within your means is what stands between you and getting your work done. 

Jari has proven before that he is completely in over his head, and I HIGHLY doubt that if he was given the money to build his own studio all of his problems will be fixed. The guy is going to find any issue no matter what because he cannot face the fact that THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SOLUTION TO ALL OF YOUR PROBLEMS.

Patton Oswalt wrote an article about Louis C.K's success with his TV series ,Louis. In that article Patton points out that we have more capable recording technology on our phones than Orson Wells ever had making Citizen Kane. Think about that and take that thought into Music and Recording. We have better technology than Miles Davis, The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, The Cure, Red Hot Chilli Peppers, so on and so forth ever had in their heyday, and Wintersun can't make an album? 

I want to make this clear, I like Wintersun, Jari is one of my favorite guitar players, but giving him money is only going to enable him.


----------



## yingmin

Icecold said:


> I said it on Facebook and I'll say it here: Do you realize how much money it costs to build and maintain a fully fledged private studio? We're not talking a couple thousand dollars here, we're talking about something that would have to take private clients to justify its existence beyond Jari's "Artistic Vision".
> 
> Jari is not better off without label support. Crowd funding an album of his does not guarantee he would deliver. We all got mad when the guy from Rings of Saturn asked for 20 grand, imagine how much Wintersun is going to want once Jari takes a trip to a site like Sweetwater? The guy who mains a Vai signature and take 10 years to release a complete album is not looking to make a modest recording studio.
> 
> Nuclear Blast is not standing in his way, his irrational perfectionism and his ego are what's standing in his way. Every creative person has to fight their ego every time their sit down to write something. Time in his mind is a failure because it is not the "GREATEST ALBUM EVER!" and it never will be. It was foolish of him to believe his own hype. There are books dedicated to the notion of Ego, Artist and Fear: Free Play and Effortless Mastery. As someone who has read both books and returns to them almost regularly, Jari Mäenpää has done every single thing those books tell you not to do.
> 
> Where both parties failed was not getting a Producer to ensure these albums would get done in a timely manner. Dan Swano and Devin Townsend have created albums in their own time and by the means available to them. Are all of them great albums? Hell no, but they still finished them. Dan made Crimson II with a POD 1, a god damn POD 1, Devin made Ziltoid with DFH. Yes, both of those guys are incredible musicians and engineers, but getting things done within your means is what stands between you and getting your work done.
> 
> Jari has proven before that he is completely in over his head, and I HIGHLY doubt that if he was given the money to build his own studio all of his problems will be fixed. The guy is going to find any issue no matter what because he cannot face the fact that THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SOLUTION TO ALL OF YOUR PROBLEMS.
> 
> Patton Oswalt wrote an article about Louis C.K's success with his TV series ,Louis. In that article Patton points out that we have more capable recording technology on our phones than Orson Wells ever had making Citizen Kane. Think about that and take that thought into Music and Recording. We have better technology than Miles Davis, The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, The Cure, Red Hot Chilli Peppers, so on and so forth ever had in their heyday, and Wintersun can't make an album?
> 
> I want to make this clear, I like Wintersun, Jari is one of my favorite guitar players, but giving him money is only going to enable him.


This post is such a welcome contrast to all the posts I see on this forum and elsewhere about people wanting to maintain the purity of their artistic vision. People who are insulted that a producer would presume to have any input on their music - when in fact that is exactly the producer's job. People who make all of their music on their own, not because of a lack of available talent, but because they can't bear the thought of any aspect of their music not being exactly the way they want it. In reality, a lot of great art has been made specifically BECAUSE of limitations, because artists did NOT have absolute creative freedom. Sure, some artists thrive when left to their own devices, but those people tend to be the game-changing geniuses, there are not a whole lot of them, and they would create great art regardless of any obstacles people put in front of them. The problem is that too many people THINK they are those once-in-a-generation perfect artists.


----------



## ilyti

Icecold said:


> Where both parties failed was not getting a Producer to ensure these albums would get done in a timely manner. Dan Swano and Devin Townsend have created albums in their own time and by the means available to them. Are all of them great albums? Hell no, but they still finished them. Dan made Crimson II with a POD 1, a god damn POD 1, Devin made Ziltoid with DFH. Yes, both of those guys are incredible musicians and engineers, but getting things done within your means is what stands between you and getting your work done.
> 
> Patton Oswalt wrote an article about Louis C.K's success with his TV series ,Louis. In that article Patton points out that we have more capable recording technology on our phones than Orson Wells ever had making Citizen Kane. Think about that and take that thought into Music and Recording. We have better technology than Miles Davis, The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, The Cure, Red Hot Chilli Peppers, so on and so forth ever had in their heyday, and Wintersun can't make an album?


There's some good points here, but the latter is not all that applicable. What Jari wants is not only better technology, its a physical place to do his thing comfortably. If you took away rehearsal space from any those bands and told them to turn it down to bedroom level every time they wanted to create they wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes as a band.

What I don't get it is why does Time I sound so darn good if these are the circumstances it was made under? It was good enough man! Or did he move to a different place after recording and mixing it, thinking the next place would be just as good?

I don't think the guy is full of himself, rather I think he is so down on himself that he honestly thinks his fans wont _like_ the album if its not perfect. He's a perfectionist because he believes he _needs_ to be in order to satisfy his fans who been waiting this long. What he needs to understand is that, in all likelyhood, the best he can do IS good enough.

I'll add to my previous post, that I'd give him a few dollars if he wakes up and smells the coffee a little. I just want to hear the album, whether it perfectly reflects his vision or not.


----------



## Icecold

ilyti said:


> There's some good points here, but the latter is not all that applicable. What Jari wants is not only better technology, its a physical place to do his thing comfortably. If you took away rehearsal space from any those bands and told them to turn it down to bedroom level every time they wanted to create they wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes as a band.
> 
> What I don't get it is why does Time I sound so darn good if these are the circumstances it was made under? It was good enough man! Or did he move to a different place after recording and mixing it, thinking the next place would be just as good?
> 
> I don't think the guy is full of himself, rather I think he is so down on himself that he honestly thinks his fans wont _like_ the album if its not perfect. He's a perfectionist because he believes he _needs_ to be in order to satisfy his fans who been waiting this long. What he needs to understand is that, in all likelyhood, the best he can do IS good enough.
> 
> I'll add to my previous post, that I'd give him a few dollars if he wakes up and smells the coffee a little. I just want to hear the album, whether it perfectly reflects his vision or not.




I do my music work in a corner of a dining room with 5 people walking through it all the time. I have about 3 feet of space of any side of me besides an opening to leave the area. Is it ideal? Nope. 

I've been in bands where we lost our practice space and had to settle for ideal conditions, did the bands tend to fall apart? Yes, but I kept going. The thing is, if you are a Musician, and you KNOW IT in your bones that this was something that was suppose to be apart of your life then you will find a way to make it work. 

Is my music anywhere Wintersun's quality? Absolutely not, but I have to make due with what I have or sit there crying about not doing the thing that matters to me, making music. In Jari's case, there are places where bands can rent a room to rehearse in. He may not have money at the moment, but the guy has to get his priorities in order if he wants to under take something like this. 

Believe me, I have been in the place he is in mentally. I didn't have nearly the pressure from fans or a label, but I've been there. Reading his statement reminded me of where I was a couple of years ago. I've deleted literally hundreds of riff tracks off my hard drives because they "Weren't good enough". Over time I had to come to the realization that in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter. You make music with what you have and who you are. People are going to like it or hate it no matter what and that is something you just have to deal with when you decide to put yourself out there. Jari is a Great Musician, but he has to realize that. 

I absolutely agree with you that Jari needs some sort of help for his mental condition. But being hard on yourself and ego go hand in hand. He promised Perfection in the first place and that is no one's fault but his own. There is no such thing as perfection. The first Wintersun album is probably held on a higher standard than it deserves. Now with all the time put into the albums there is no way Time II is going to live up to the expectation built up from all these years. He knows that and now he is trying to make something BIGGER AND MORE GRAND! It's just not realistic.

I listened to Time I again when this whole thing popped up, and it is much better than I remember it being. I love the self titled album. Jari has the talent to make this happen, but better technology? It takes a very long time to get a handle on a recording studio. There is a reason why there are Audio Engineers. Jari is looking to take on a whole new skill set because he has this vision of some amazing album that is going to make St. Anger good? 

I do not take an issue if you want to help the guy out, I really don't, but we have to be honest about the situation and really analyze what he is asking for. He is not a tortured artist who has to deal with the "Mean Old Label" he has been given 10 years to deliver and he is not doing it.


----------



## abandonist

Black Flag slept on the floor of their warehouse and ate dog food. 

Fvck this guy.


----------



## OmegaSlayer

Zalbu said:


> What I still don't understand is how NB can demand to take money from a fundraiser if he doesn't use the Wintersun name. Sounds pretty shady to me if (emphasis on if) they can demand to take money from a fundraiser, no matter what the cause.



Look, it's so simple.
When a label signs a band, they tie the most important figure(s) of the band in the contract.
If you open a booklet where there's a big guest appearance, and read the credits, you'll see "mr x appears courtesy of y record".
And that's to avoid stuff like you mention.

Remember it's a contract and no one force people with a gun to sign it.


----------



## Dan

abandonist said:


> Black Flag slept on the floor of their warehouse and ate dog food.
> 
> Fvck this guy.



Do yourself a favour dude, pipe the hell down with the obscenities before you get banned. Black flag's music is nothing compared to what this guy is trying to achieve, and if you're trying to make those comparisons you're absolutely musically deluded.

I feel for Jari but I can't help thinking he's going about this all wrong. Quick question; have any of you watched this video:



I spend a lot of my time recording and mixing big orchestral arrangements, my setup isn't ideal but i've spent A LOT of money on gear and it still takes an age. What he's managed to achieve from a composers perspective is completely mind boggling. I seem to recall there are over 1200 separate orchestral tracks in Sons of Winter and Stars. I think the most I've ever used in one score was about 250.

The problem Jari has is that the electronic fire-power he needs isn't affordable yet and he doesn't have the means to spend long periods of time recording and mixing both by himself or in a professional studio. He doesn't necessarily need a full studio, he needs a soundproof space to mix without being disturbed, where he can do the bulk of his work without worrying about his computer failing and annoying his neighbours. The whole rant was basically an exhausted musician who's sick of not being able to share his music with the world, all the while fans and his label are constantly on his back to release something. 

For anyone who's cussing him: The bottom line is that mixing orchestra at the level he is creating is not only mentally crippling, but it takes a hell of a lot of time. What he did on Time I can take a team of 15-30 mixers up to 6 months of constant work, so in the grand scheme of things what he's done is relatively remarkable. But I digress 

I don't condone his actions but I do understand his frustrations, and judging by the response from other members of the community here other musicians who work in a professional environment can also appreciate this.


----------



## Hemorrhage

Dan said:


> Do yourself a favour dude, pipe the hell down with the obscenities before you get banned. Black flag's music is nothing compared to what this guy is trying to achieve, and if you're trying to make those comparisons you're absolutely musically deluded.
> 
> I feel for Jari but I can't help thinking he's going about this all wrong. Quick question; have any of you watched this video:
> 
> 
> 
> I spend a lot of my time recording and mixing big orchestral arrangements, my setup isn't ideal but i've spent A LOT of money on gear and it still takes an age. What he's managed to achieve from a composers perspective is completely mind boggling.* I seem to recall there are over 1200 separate orchestral tracks in Sons of Winter and Stars.* I think the most I've ever used in one score was about 250.
> 
> The problem Jari has is that the electronic fire-power he needs isn't affordable yet and he doesn't have the means to spend long periods of time recording and mixing both by himself or in a professional studio. He doesn't necessarily need a full studio, he needs a soundproof space to mix without being disturbed, where he can do the bulk of his work without worrying about his computer failing and annoying his neighbours. The whole rant was basically an exhausted musician who's sick of not being able to share his music with the world, all the while fans and his label are constantly on his back to release something.
> 
> For anyone who's cussing him: The bottom line is that mixing orchestra at the level he is creating is not only mentally crippling, but it takes a hell of a lot of time. What he did on Time I can take a team of 15-30 mixers up to 6 months of constant work, so in the grand scheme of things what he's done is relatively remarkable. But I digress
> 
> I don't condone his actions but I do understand his frustrations, and judging by the response from other members of the community here other musicians who work in a professional environment can also appreciate this.




I remember seeing the same kind of figures about the amount of tracks but I really gotta ask, could he achieve the same with less? I am not a professional by any means but when you take that mp3 of Sons of Winter and Stars, there's a big part of that 1200 tracks which no one does never hear. Feels like a complete overkill to me. Could all those tracks be there just because he knows that they are there and is happy about it but its no use for the listeners? Anyone with greater knowledge, please educate.


----------



## Dan

Hemorrhage said:


> I remember seeing the same kind of figures about the amount of tracks but I really gotta ask, could he achieve the same with less? I am not a professional by any means but when you take that mp3 of Sons of Winter and Stars, there's a big part of that 1200 tracks which no one does never hear. Feels like a complete overkill to me. Could all those tracks be there just because he knows that they are there and is happy about it but its no use for the listeners? Anyone with greater knowledge, please educate.



Time I was very much an album that was for musicians and composers as well as listeners. If you have standard headphones in the music sounds great, but put it on a pair of studio grade monitors and it truly blows you away. There are just hundreds and hundreds of layers that all work in harmony. The dude certainly has an ear for details. 

The truth is yes, he could probably create an album that sounded exemplary using a fraction of the musical mass he uses now, but in all honesty I wouldn't want him to, simply because every time I put that record on its a musical journey and I always catch something new. There are very very few records that i can do that with, especially in the metal genre.


----------



## Icecold

I hear you, Dan. What Jari is trying to do is pretty nuts and no one can take that away from him. But he really should have had some over sight in all of this. 

I'm reminded of the movie Pi, if you have not seen it do yourself a favor and check it out. Basically the main character has an unhealthy obsession and it drives him insane despite his mentor telling him slow down and take a break. I know that is summing up a movie with more to it, but for the sake of this thread, let's just leave it at that. With Jari's current mental state, he needs to slow down and take a break.


----------



## Hemorrhage

Dan said:


> Time I was very much an album that was for musicians and composers as well as listeners. If you have standard headphones in the music sounds great, but put it on a pair of studio grade monitors and it truly blows you away. There are just hundreds and hundreds of layers that all work in harmony. The dude certainly has an ear for details.
> 
> The truth is yes, he could probably create an album that sounded exemplary using a fraction of the musical mass he uses now, but in all honesty I wouldn't want him to, simply because every time I put that record on its a musical journey and I always catch something new. There are very very few records that i can do that with, especially in the metal genre.



Seems completely reasonable. Nevertheless, if the situation is so bad for him, he really should see the reality that he is living in, loosen a bit with his perfection and release Time II with the same quality as Time I so he could concentrate to the new songs which he thinks are superior to the Time II songs. He has already created one album that people adore, there is no reason for him to go through all of this (except if its all for himself) if the songs he is now trying to put out are not as good as the songs that he will put out later. I can understand that with that way he would not like the album himself, at least not that much, but it would give him time and space to concentrate on the future efforts which seem more worthy to him.


----------



## fps

OmegaSlayer said:


> My experience...which goes back to the late 90s
> 
> I was offered some contracts for my first album.
> 
> I played power metal and one of the contract was one of the biggest and most historic Deutsch power metal label of the 80s (now bankrupt).
> Their contract stated that they would have funded the recordings for a month in a studio of our choice in Germany (we were from Italy), accomodation in place, mixing, promotion and distribution WORLDWIDE.
> For us...nothing, except some little bonus like gears vouchers or tattoos vouchers.
> (This tattoos voucher is some kind of common thing since I know for certain that the band payment for the record Covenant - Nexus Polaris was indeed tattoos vouchers)
> 
> Another contract for an Italian label on which our record would have been the first record said that we had to pay the recording/studio and mixing and they would have published and distributed it in Europe and Japan with help from local labels.
> BUT we would have had our share of money for each copy sold.
> 
> My band mates decided to go for the money.
> I wasn't sure about that deal and didn't want to pay money to record, and my bandmates covered my part since I was the only songwriter.
> Aaaaaaaaaaaanyway...with the money we gathered we could only book a small local studios for one week.
> The recording had to be done very quickly (mistakes included), an average of 1 day per instrument (sound research included) and 1 day for the final mix.
> 
> Our record sounds like utter shit, no matter how good the songs might have been, they sound like a total mess, with some sections that are even hard to figure out.
> A record that for me is still a personal shame almost 20 years later.
> 
> As small metal artists, we must always be mentally prepared that unless we have a luckshot, there's no way we'll make loads of money with our music, and searching desperately for money with metal is a path that very often leads to self destruction.
> Our genre is usually built on sincere feelings.
> So...we must make some compromise.
> We don't generate an amount of money that justifies every single one of our request.
> We must understand it and act with the necessary humbleness.
> 
> I don't write music anymore, but if I would be sure to have some killer stuff and my budget or the budget from my record label wouldn't be enough, I would maybe put it on a side and release it later instead of dealing with money constraints that would water down my artistic vision.
> 
> Good music age perfectly, so you can release it in another moment.
> 
> Maybe Jari should have understood that the times weren't ripe for what he had in mind.
> Times not being ripe doesn't mean you're a lesser musician, but just that your environment doesn't allow you to make things right.
> And...you can't vent on internet for your lack of foresight.



Omega great post. I'm sorry to hear you have regrets with your recording, but your insight and the points you make are spot on, I couldn't agree more. 

Rest of this I'll edit out. There we are.


----------



## fps

ilyti said:


> All that being said - I'd still give Jari a bit of cash just to build his studio. I don't want anything back from it except a thank you. There are still people like that in the world, believe it or not.
> 
> And regarding the idea that he's basically "committed suicide" by this "public tantrum" and no record companies would touch him with a 10 foot pole after NB is done with them (whenever that is)? GOOD. He's better off that way, any band is better off not being a slave to the corporate business side of the music industry. He's not being entitled or egotistical - he's just frustrated. He has every reason to be considering what he's been through CONSTANTLY over the last several years. Saying what's going on over FB was probably not the best way to handle it, but I'm glad to know he feels he can express himself to the fans and not be too embarrassed.
> 
> I'm so saddened by people's lack of empathy, and jealousy when we see others asking for something or getting something they "don't deserve." Coming to the defense of a record label? What universe did I just step into? Obviously mistakes were made on both sides. But we are not directly involved. We can't judge and say "well he should have just fulfilled his end of the bargain he made with NB in the first place... even if it means sacrificing his artistic vision." Yep that's what thousands of bands have done over the years. But nobody was ever happy with it.
> 
> If it were up to me, I'd fly over there and talk some sense into the guy about LIFE MANAGEMENT. What he needs is to find *where *he's capable of doing what he wants to fulfill his artistic vision. Change your life circumstances, a little bit at a time. Don't complain about living in a crap apartment - MOVE!! Or soundproof the room with egg boxes! Or call up all your friends and acquaintances to see if they are willing to help you (eg. Dan Swano, Devin Townsend, his old Ensiferum bandmates? Are they still friends?) Let go just a little bit of the need to be 100% in control of the mix. Find someone you trust who you can work with. Heck, go back to the post office to work a few days a week! Seriously. There are solutions.
> 
> I have a ton of empathy for the guy but he really does need to just think outside the box and not think total control and a chunk of cash is the answer. Work in small steps towards building your dream studio/home, we can wait. Jari has a ridiculous amount of determination to get what he wants accomplished, he's just focusing his efforts in the wrong place. He's like "I'm going to brood and be frustrated and all my energy will go toward putting up with my circumstances while I try to get this album finished..." until he snaps and has to complain publicly. This is the fatal flaw in many people's personality. But it doesn't stop me from feeling sorry for him, wanting to help, and wanting more music. That's what it comes down to for me.



Sorry, but who do you think made it possible for him to be an artist for a living in the first place? You need money to do these things. He has shown he can't be trusted with Nuclear Blast's. 

Imagine this, imagine Nuclear Blast were the PledgeMusic or Kickstarter, and he hit his target, and then turned around and said nope, sorry, I need more money cos I haven't done this, and now I need a studio. How would you feel about it then?


----------



## Dyingsea

I'm kind of tired of all the Wintersun drama and I'm a big fan. How long did it take to record the first album? Don't ever remember hearing any gripes about production and I believe it was mostly done in a true studio. What's the issue? 

Jari isn't a multi-plantinum selling artist who can spend 6 straight months sitting in a studio with tons of money behind him. I think he needs a little real world retrospective on where he stands and then for him to decide how to best get his music out, or not get it out at all.


----------



## OmegaSlayer

fps said:


> Omega great post. I'm sorry to hear you have regrets with your recording, but your insight and the points you make are spot on, I couldn't agree more.
> 
> Rest of this I'll edit out. There we are.



I had a luckshot and I blasted it.
If my experience can help others to not make mistakes, then it's good to share.


----------



## mgh

Over a thousand tracks is absolutely mad though. Massive symphonies have about a hundred players but lots playing in sections so maybe only about twenty to thirty actual different staves/musical lines. And they have a dozen times more complexity and dynamics. 
The closest equivalent I can think is also on NB and that's Equilibrium and they manage an album every eighteen months. He needs to work with someone who either knows the technical or the orchestral side better than him, and also remember that a simple but catchy guitar riff is worth a dozen samples!


----------



## Xiphos68

Look...

Wintersun is the first metal band in quite a few years to have much success as they have had. 

1. Time: Part 1 is one of the greatest albums to ever be released from a production and musical stand point. This is one of the few albums that actually brought tears to my eyes because it was everything I was expecting and more. I showed bits and pieces of this album to many of my friends who do not even listen to Metal and enjoyed it for the musicality produced. 

2. Wintersun begins to tour and sets off to America and sells out several shows for their first tour and they were even able to come back later the next year.
This hardly happens anymore with popular American Metal bands. 

3. Wintersun offers all kinds of merchandise and listens to what their fans want concerning it. I mean for goodness sakes, Jari was going to do a limited run of Leather Jackets for Wintersun if the fans were down with it. 

Aside from the crowdfunding, Wintersun does need some more support. They were at a climax level and now are starting to come down from that level due to anticipation of Time: Part 2. I do not see this band going anywhere but concerning the production standpoint of Producing Time: Part 2. The only people I could see getting what Jari wants out of an album is: Arjen J. Lucassen (Ayreon, Star One), Devin Townsend and Andy Sneap. I am sure I missed some others as well..

But Jari has accomplished quite a bit with just two albums and I hope he is able to finish it out. 

Yeah. I did not understand how he was going to get out of this rant concerning Nuclear Blast. But hey, maybe they will finally do something...

Wintersun is actually one of the few bands in the world that does not take their fans for granted and it is nice to see.

EDIT: Also I think some of you are "wigging out" concerning a "private studio." It is not going to be some massive stand alone building. 
I am sure that Jari is quite aware that he can accomplish much with just some up to date software, computer and speakers. 
Really he just needs find a better apartment.


----------



## fps

Xiphos68 said:


> Look...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah. I did not understand how he was going to get out of this rant concerning Nuclear Blast. But hey, maybe they will finally do something...



I think the issue is that Jari is the one not doing something.


----------



## chopeth

I wish Jari wrote here and gave his opinion about our posts. Anyway, I prefer he doesn't lose his time here. Love wintersun, can't wait for Time II.


----------



## spawnofthesith

I'd like him to get time II out of the way so he could do Wintersun II. I'd be shitting my pants over that if that happened


----------



## Necris

ilyti said:


> And regarding the idea that he's basically "committed suicide" by this "public tantrum" and no record companies would touch him with a 10 foot pole after NB is done with them (whenever that is)? GOOD. *He's better off that way, any band is better off not being a slave to the corporate business side of the music industry.*




If he can't get the job done in a somewhat reasonable time frame with a cash advance being given to him by a major label while in a band that is still very popular then how, assuming the kickstarter thing doesn't happen, do you believe he will continue to produce music when the label falls away and he has to pay for everything? Unless he decides to get a job, which would almost certainly delay future albums, how would he afford all of these things he has deemed vital to properly creating his music? What excuses would he give his fans then, "_______ is going to be severely delayed because my job won't give me _____ months off to track and mix the album, as such I will only be able to work on it in my free time"? 

I have some problems with his claims too for example if (paraprhrasing) "the electricity is so bad that (he) can't even record with modeled guitar amps" how is he tracking raw guitar tracks without that interference showing up? Does he have to trash the tracks, re-track the guitars for the entire album elsewhere and then reamp those tracks?

Also 1200 tracks of orchestral instruments for a single song? No wonder he's having problems in regards to computer processing power (I remember that being the first problem with "Time"). Running all of that, presumably with EQ and effects and everything else, to monitor in real time is likely to give all but the most powerful computers a challenge.

Even cutting the amount of tracks in half would likely be unnoticeable by the vast majority of listeners when hidden behind the other parts. I can't help but feel he knows what he wants but doesn't actually know how to get there without also going overkill.
To put things in perspective:
The New York Philharmonic has 104 musicians* , even assuming you needed to triple everything to get things sounding "real" with software, and I don't believe for a moment that you would, that's still 312, a little over a quarter of what he's using, adding choral parts and whatever else he's using is unlikely to need an additional 788 tracks.

*(I counted, although it's possible some of those might have been people who played multiple instruments in the orchestra, I noticed one was and that brought the count down.)

The fact is that it's been one thing after another with Wintersun since Time was first announced. 

I'm sympathetic to his problems to a degree, I've experienced a good deal of them myself, but while I understand he's frustrated he can't blame other people for every problem he encounters, which is exactly what he's doing.


----------



## Zalbu

https://www.facebook.com/wintersun/posts/10152623595422402

Jari did one hell of a good job if the guitars were recorded with old modeling technology and did all the vocals on a laptop and did everything on his own aside from drums, bass and rhythm guitars. I bet he could bring in big bucks as a producer if he only had a place to record since he mentions that he's starting to get some decent gear. 

He's touching upon some interesting points, like how Time I apparently is "demo quality". One hell of a demo in that case.


----------



## Jarmake

Xiphos68 said:


> 1. Time: Part 1 is one of the greatest albums to ever be released from a production and musical stand point. This is one of the few albums that actually brought tears to my eyes because it was everything I was expecting and more. I showed bits and pieces of this album to many of my friends who do not even listen to Metal and enjoyed it for the musicality produced.



Really? One of the greatest albums EVER from production and musical stand point? 

Yeah, there's some great moments in there, but it's actually quite mediocre album for most parts. Yeah, there's some japanese stuff and windchimes and whatnot, but the album isn't really that great. Those thousands of orchestral bits drown out the real band instruments and singing. So the mixing isn't that great. I enjoyed the hell out of that "live-dvd" that came with the album, mixed by Nino Laurenne. It was much better than the official record.

The songs are good and I do enjoy the album every now and then, but it's not the album to end all albums. While I think Jari is a great composer, singer and guitar player, I think he should just give those mixing duties to some other folk and give in to playing the albums in a real studio.

These long whiny ramblings in the facebook just act as a sort of a downer. "waah, I don't have my own studio, the world sucks, everything is going to hell..." get over yourself. Jeez...


----------



## Zalbu

Jarmake said:


> Those thousands of orchestral bits drown out the real band instruments and singing. So the mixing isn't that great.


Which was on purpose because the guitars didn't turn out the way he wanted them to, because he doesn't have access to his own studio. So the "whining" the studio is kinda justified since that's the only way he can produce the albums to the standard he seeks.


----------



## Jarmake

Zalbu said:


> Which was on purpose because the guitars didn't turn out the way he wanted them to, because he doesn't have access to his own studio. So the "whining" the studio is kinda justified since that's the only way he can produce the albums to the standard he seeks.



...Yeah... How about lowering some of those standards? I'd like to make an example from Tuomas Holopainen. The first albums were good sounding and band oriented. They got more and more famous and when the budget was big enough, Tuomas did all these orchestral stuff and the band went to the background. He didn't try to run before he could walk and didn't try to buy a studio before he had the money. And he certainly didn't write a wall of text to social media, just to whine about roadworks and bad electricity (which by the way is fixable by certified electrician) and how he isn't getting billions of dollars from the record label.

On the other hand Jari did a great metal album with some background synths and then did a freaking 1000-piece orchestral album, which _surprisinly _didn't work out so well, seeing that he doesn't have literally any experience doing all those tracks and he still did them by hand. And when the record label shut down the stream of money, he just says that he doesn't owe anything to the label or fans and doesn't have to release time2 if he doesn't want to. So, the label just forked out money for nothing? I wonder how the label has been so ....ing patient with Jari so far. I would have cut out the money way way sooner than this. Waiting for an album for nearly about 8 years is ridiculous, especially when there was several promises to release the album "next year" or so and all of them were broken. Then releasing the album in two parts and failing to deliver the second part (once again!) in time.

Oh well... This is just my opinion of everything and I hope that the fans will get time2 someday.


----------



## ilyti

A few important points I want to bring out from his wall of text:



> Nuclear Blast gave us just enough budget for only to record the drums, bass and rhythm guitars in 3rd party studio, that´s it. Which all turn out unsatisfying due to lack of time to tweak the sounds right for massive projects like the TIME albums are. That´s why I´ve been struggling with the mixing. All the rest of the instuments, vocals, orchestrations, melody guitars etc... was left up to me to record on my own however possible and getting quality recordings in a "DIY bedroom studio scenario" is not easy._* Sure they gave us few additional advances, ´cause we begged them for faster computers and better gear (and all that money has been paid back already)*_, but still not nearly enough for a task like this. The rest have been basically financed by yours truly with touring, merchandise and just simply sacrificing my own time doing lot of workarounds and recording in rehearsal places or where ever I could due to the lack of funding,



He's not as much of a deadbeat as people are making him out to be.



> _*Sorry, but I´m just not that skilled of a human being! *_I would need to rent a 3rd party studio for a year or two or even three years depending on the project and live there 24/7.... You have to also remember,_* I do these albums basically alone. Produce, record, engineer, sing, play, mix, master, write all the music & lyrics... *_Who else does that? Anyone in Finland? Anyone in the world? Well maybe Devin Townsend, but he´s ....ing Devin Townsend! I´m just nobody from Konala, Helsinki.


He admits that he's not as good at all the technical computery aspects of recording. That's nice to know. But it's his own fault that he can't find someone to work with to take some of the burden off. You have bandmates, dude. And remember, Devin Townsend was "nobody" once.



> During these years I´ve been already acquiring studio gear and started doing most of the stuff myself and I love it! I´ve gotta pretty good DAW and monitor setup, so basically I got most of the studio gear already. But there´s still one major thing that is missing and that is the studio space.


He has the gear he needs. Dude just wants to buy a SPACE. How about a soundproof warehouse? That could be affordable.



> I don´t owe Nuclear Blast or anyone anything. I don´t have to make or release albums. I don´t have to release TIME II, if I´m not happy with it. I can make music (demos) just for myself for fun and just show them to my closest friends. Or I can do something else, for example teaching like Kai and Teemu... doing anything else I would actually earn some money. I will continue to always make music like I did before any record deals, but whether I will release the music depends totally whether I can record and mix it properly... Nuclear Blast and everyone around me has made profits of Wintersun and all my debts are paid.


OK, that sounds reasonable on the surface, but it almost sounds like an ultimatum to me. Doesn't sit well.



> And I´m pretty sure _*I would not be able to gather enough finances on my own with just &#8220;Jari Mäenpää´s studio crowd funding&#8221; without any meaningful perk l*_ike TIME II high quality album download for example. It would have to be a big Wintersun campaign with a team of people helping me to realise this dream. But I will try to figure something out, I´m not giving up!


Why not offer a different perk? One that's not directly related to the album you're making?



> I´ve seen some comments saying that &#8220;You don´t deserve your own studio, because other bands don´t get to have their own studio either and you should just do your music like everyone else does it!&#8221;. Would it be somehow bad for the other bands if I would build my own studio? Would it somehow hurt the other bands, if I could make more Wintersun albums in my own way? Or are these comments just based on jealousy or something? &#8220;What makes you so special to get your own studio?&#8221; Nothing and maybe I don´t deserve it, but that is for the fans & financiers to decide and I know there´s lots of dedicated fans that want to support us! It really isn´t about who deserves what. I´m just saying what I can and can´t do. I have my own way of doing things.


That says it pretty clearly for me. He acknowledges a lot of the criticism and doesn't have any response than just "Hey I get where you're coming from, and that's how you see it, but this is just my situation. It's not about who deserves what." I get that, and people need to be a bit less judgemental about other people's wants and needs. If you don't want to support it, that's fine too.



> Currently I´m negotiating with Nuclear Blast and our manager how we could make this work for all parties&#8230; We´ll see if we can work this out.


We'll see what happens. Clearly NB realize how public this has become and they are willing to play ball a bit. I expect that ultimately NB will make an executive decision, realizing it could be good for their image if they lend him some more money, and agree to let some money can come from the fans. Everybody wins in the end. It will just take some time.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Everything he says is "my way", "how I want", "what I can do"....... Life is full of compromise buddy, deal with it.

I'm not huge into these guys, went back and listened.....he could've done what he did with 100 tracks and nobody but him would have known the difference. But, I'm also super, duper bored of classical melodic compositions.....


----------



## Icecold

> But to continue to make more albums, I need my own studio. I´ve had enough making albums in rehearsal places and in a bedroom studios, it just doesn´t work. Enough is enough. I´ve reached the breaking point. I don´t owe Nuclear Blast or anyone anything. I don´t have to make or release albums. I don´t have to release TIME II, if I´m not happy with it. I can make music (demos) just for myself for fun and just show them to my closest friends. Or I can do something else, for example teaching like Kai and Teemu... doing anything else I would actually earn some money. I will continue to always make music like I did before any record deals, but whether I will release the music depends totally whether I can record and mix it properly. I´ve made piece with myself that if I won´t be able to ever release another album again and I have to take my songs to the grave, that is ok with me, but I do not wish it. Nuclear Blast and everyone around me has made profits of Wintersun and all my debts are paid. So no harm done. Where to go from here? The future is unknow.



This to me was the most important part of the entire post. 

What begins with him "Explaining himself" turns into "I'm holding my music hostage unless I get exactly what I want." 

I don't even know how to argue for or against this guy anymore, but if I was a hardcore Wintersun fan I would not be happy right now.


----------



## technomancer

Sorry, but what a freaking prima donna 

Seriously Time I sold 3870 copies its first week. Those kind of numbers are not going to get a label to build you your own studio. I understand the whole sales doesn't indicate quality etc etc however when you're asking for a shitload of money and throwing a fit when you don't get it you might want to think about the math.


----------



## Watty

There are plenty of people releasing great music with budgets that would make Jari scoff, gear that would make Jari cringe, and computers that make Jari's look like Watson reincarnate...he needs to calm his shit and realize that his target market for music "as he sees fit to deliver" is smaller than he might think. I'm listening to Time I as I type this, and I can say that probably 60% of his VST's are superfluous and that at least another 10% could have been covered by the guitar instead of some weird stringed instrument that eats RAM for breakfast.

I like Wintersun, but there was literally no excuse for Time I to take that long to create and release. Can't handle all 548.90^8 software instruments at once? Sequence parts and export to a separate file that can be played as a new track in the composition. Can't avoid interference from electronics at your current place? Last I checked, leases aren't signed for several years at a time. The list goes on.

It's one thing for Jari to make this music in a vacuum and release it himself when it's done to his satisfaction, but to complain (albeit in a roundabout way in part of this context) about the fact that he signed to a label when it's clearly not conducive to the way he prefers to work is asinine.


----------



## Icecold

Watty said:


> It's one thing for Jari to make this music in a vacuum and release it himself when it's done to his satisfaction, but to complain (albeit in a roundabout way in part of this context) about the fact that he signed to a label when it's clearly not conducive to the way he prefers to work is asinine.



Not to mention a label that has not dropped him for taking forever to release 1 album and going off on them TWICE on his band's Facebook. 

What it looks like Jari is doing at this point is betting the house on getting out of his contract and making enough through crowd funding to build and run a studio. What I find amazing is that he has spent literally zero time researching how much time and money it would take to actually build that kind of studio, because if he did he would have stopped these shenanigans almost immediately. I've said it before, but he would have to take private clients just to pay for regular utilities and maintenance and that is NOT what he is looking to do. He is not Steve Harris or Dave Mustaine where he has earned enough over the years to own a studio that he can use for his band, not even close.


----------



## Thorerges

Reminds me of muhamme suicmez. Complete genius - whined about the label and necrophagist is a distant memory now.


----------



## Icecold

Thorerges said:


> Reminds me of muhamme suicmez. Complete genius - whined about the label and necrophagist is a distant memory now.



Muhammed blew it by not releasing anything period. Necrophagist could be leading the charge of the tech death scene and instead they are that really amazing band who have been silent for almost a decade. I purchased Onset of Putrefaction a few months ago when I found it used here in SF just thinking "I really liked this when I was high school" and when I put it on I was absolutely blown away how good everything was. Riffs, Solos, even the songwriting. 

The thing is, in the case of Wintersun and pretty much anyone who takes this long to make something. You have to be willing to put out something that is not good. Don't put out something bad intentionally (St.Anger) but just embrace that you cannot be 100% all the time. 
Not every Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Megadeth, Metallica, Slayer, or Black Sabbath album is amazing, but they were at least consistent with making albums. Nowadays everyone's attention span is so short and we are constantly looking for the next great band or album to come along.


----------



## fps

Icecold said:


> The thing is, in the case of Wintersun and pretty much anyone who takes this long to make something. You have to be willing to put out something that is not good. Don't put out something bad intentionally (St.Anger) but just embrace that you cannot be 100% all the time.
> Not every Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Megadeth, Metallica, Slayer, or Black Sabbath album is amazing, but they were at least consistent with making albums. Nowadays everyone's attention span is so short and we are constantly looking for the next great band or album to come along.



I agree. I'd add that this guy can't be validly compared with these legendary names, and part of the problem may be that he thinks he really is that special, before having proved it time and again, which you HAVE to do before people will indulge you.


----------



## Petef2007

Sick of this guys excuses. 

"the way I want"..."the way I have to"..."it needs to be done my way" etc etc...its like arguing with your friend who is totally and completely unwilling to accept that theres any viewpoint other than their own thats worth listening to.

The guy who plays Ibanez Jems onstage is whining about not having any money - how much do you think he could get if he sold one? Surely that would give him a huge chunk of cash to throw into a studio setup?

I don't think ANY metal band in the history of music has been able to exist without compromise. Does Jari really think even the big important players like Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden got away with doing everything on their own terms? Sabbath got on with it and did what they could at the time with what was available, and Jari thinks he needs more more more all the time? Give me a break.

If the technology Jari has isn't good enough, whats the point in writing songs with so much orchestration that its almost impossible to do them? Thats like taking a ferarri for a spin the day after you pass your driving test and being suprised that its way too much for you to handle. There was, in my opinion, ZERO need for a 1000 piece orchestra on Time I - i'm pretty sure even the big name Symphonic Metal players like Nightwish and Epica don't have a 1000 piece orchestra. But special snowflake Jari needs one to sprinkle over his diet Children of Bodom riffs? Ok. 

EVEN IF hypothetically he DID need every bit of that orchestra, whats wrong with, say, STAYING IN YOUR JOB AND SAVING FOR IT. He already said he quit his job to work on Wintersun full time, then got very suprised when he didn't have the money for it and had to beg his label for advances for new computers. If he worked, and saved, he could have bagged himself a computer that would have done everything he needed - sure it would take a while, but TIME I took 8 years to release, and i'm fairly sure he could have afforded a pc in 8 years of working. 

Bottom line is, I just don't think Jari knows what hes doing, and hes convinced himself that having more of everything and the best studio gear he can afford will somehow make him some kind of mixing god. Guy has aspirations of being Iron Maiden, and hes just....well...Wintersun. 

But from looking at the copious amount of brown nosing going on in the facebook comments, its easy to see how he could start to believe his own BS.

If the dude released albums as consistently as he releases updates bitching about why he can't release albums, none of this would have happened.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Thorerges said:


> Reminds me of muhamme suicmez. Complete genius - whined about the label and necrophagist is a distant memory now.



Wintersun almost went down that route. It took Jari 8 years to release half of time. Every year he would post an update that it would be out the following year just like Necrophagist but Nuclear Blast were able to step in and give him the funds to get it released. 

The label certainly aren't going to drop him after seeing the huge support he is getting on Facebook and the amount of people ready to throw their wallets at the screen for a kickstarter. 

How much money would a full studio cost?


----------



## Dayn

Given what I thought of Time I, I'm willing to wait 8 years for Time II to be done his way.


----------



## Dan

Petef2007 said:


> Sick of this guys excuses.
> 
> "the way I want"..."the way I have to"..."it needs to be done my way" etc etc...its like arguing with your friend who is totally and completely unwilling to accept that theres any viewpoint other than their own thats worth listening to.



Would you tell a writer how to write their novel? Or an artist how to paint their painting? Jari's an extremely competent studio producer, but then again if it was other producers who work from their homes (naming no names) people would be 100% on his side. 



Petef2007 said:


> The guy who plays Ibanez Jems onstage is whining about not having any money - how much do you think he could get if he sold one? Surely that would give him a huge chunk of cash to throw into a studio setup?



He also has an endorsement with Ibanez and i'd imagine he will have received those guitars either free or at a highly reduced rate to promote the business. For the Wintersun album he used a Tokai Telecaster which is worth about £350. 




Petef2007 said:


> I don't think ANY metal band in the history of music has been able to exist without compromise. Does Jari really think even the big important players like Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden got away with doing everything on their own terms? Sabbath got on with it and did what they could at the time with what was available, and Jari thinks he needs more more more all the time? Give me a break.



If you'd taken a moment to read his clarification post he had to make a lot of compromise to get Time I out. I know if i wasn't happy with a mix then i would sit on it and wait till i could do a better job. I've got a full albums worth of material from about 2 years ago still waiting to be released because i can't afford the right person to mix it. If people were willing to give me money to finish my album and my label wouldn't offer me the cash i know i'd be frustrated. 



Petef2007 said:


> If the technology Jari has isn't good enough, whats the point in writing songs with so much orchestration that its almost impossible to do them? Thats like taking a ferarri for a spin the day after you pass your driving test and being suprised that its way too much for you to handle. There was, in my opinion, ZERO need for a 1000 piece orchestra on Time I - i'm pretty sure even the big name Symphonic Metal players like Nightwish and Epica don't have a 1000 piece orchestra. But special snowflake Jari needs one to sprinkle over his diet Children of Bodom riffs? Ok.



If everyone took your narrow minded approach we wouldn't have advancements in any field and we would be living in the dark ages. People push boundaries to do what other people have never done before. In regards to your 1000 piece orchestra comment; no you don't NEED to have that amount of orchestra, but then again you don't NEED two eyeballs to see do you? But i'm sure you would compromise given the choice right?



Petef2007 said:


> EVEN IF hypothetically he DID need every bit of that orchestra, whats wrong with, say, STAYING IN YOUR JOB AND SAVING FOR IT. He already said he quit his job to work on Wintersun full time, then got very suprised when he didn't have the money for it and had to beg his label for advances for new computers. If he worked, and saved, he could have bagged himself a computer that would have done everything he needed - sure it would take a while, but TIME I took 8 years to release, and i'm fairly sure he could have afforded a pc in 8 years of working.



Urm... Maybe because in a full time job he wouldn't have the time to write, record and produce his music and he still wouldn't have finished the first album?. Bit of a redundant comment there. 




Petef2007 said:


> Bottom line is, I just don't think Jari knows what hes doing, and hes convinced himself that having more of everything and the best studio gear he can afford will somehow make him some kind of mixing god. Guy has aspirations of being Iron Maiden, and hes just....well...Wintersun.
> 
> But from looking at the copious amount of brown nosing going on in the facebook comments, its easy to see how he could start to believe his own BS.
> 
> If the dude released albums as consistently as he releases updates bitching about why he can't release albums, none of this would have happened.



He's released 2 updates "bitching" about why he cant release albums.... and funnily enough he's released 2 albums! Go figure! 

Personally i think Jari knows exactly what he's doing but he simply doesn't have the space to craft his work at the speed people expect him to. If people were constantly complaining that you weren't releasing music fast enough and wanted to offer you money to finish, but your music label wouldn't let you accept it because they want a big cut wouldn't you be a little pissed off? 

People can be bitch about his attitude all they want, and can take the "Metalsucks" approach to the topic but all the guy wants is a space to finish his music, craft his art and stop people bugging him for music he currently can't create. If the end result is more music like Time I then i'd be more than happy to give the guy money.


----------



## hairychris

I don't have any particular dog in this fight - I don't really know Wintersun, and Nuclear Blast might not be the best label but it's certainly nowhere near the worst.

My opinion:

Jari is over-reaching hideously.

My reasoning:

Without knowing the details of his deal, if he promised to deliver product and has failed to he's in a a bit of trouble, especially as it seems that what he planned was not actually possible for him to produce.

He's already had an advance for studio work.

I know people who've sold more units than Wintersun, they do this while holding down day jobs. Unless you're selling *a lot* more than he is, and with tour receipts to back it up, you're on your own. Sorry mate, you need a frigging job or alternative income if your "artistic vision" is impossible to put together in reasonable time.

Other people produce/engineer/etc other artists to help fund their own endeavours. Devin's been doing this for years. I also know people locally who run studios, etc. They have to pay the rent first, but the facilities are there for their own use once the paying customers have gone home. 

Kickstarter: I'm not surprised that NB nixed it. They have first call on the material that they've already put money towards, and there may be legal implications. If Jari was releasing without a label then I suppose that it would work, but he's not. he'll still have to pay taxes, mind.

Bitching does not help.

Dan above makes some points, most of which I disagree fundamentally with (  ) , but I'll respond to the points...



Dan said:


> Would you tell a writer how to write their novel? Or an artist how to paint their painting? Jari's an extremely competent studio producer, but then again if it was other producers who work from their homes (naming no names) people would be 100% on his side.



Yes, or rather, if I'd contracted them to provide something by a deadline and had paid an advance to do so then I'd expect something. If the artist is painting a masterpiece on their own time then they can fill their boots if it's not on my contract.



Dan said:


> If you'd taken a moment to read his clarification post he had to make a lot of compromise to get Time I out. I know if i wasn't happy with a mix then i would sit on it and wait till i could do a better job. I've got a full albums worth of material from about 2 years ago still waiting to be released because i can't afford the right person to mix it. If people were willing to give me money to finish my album and my label wouldn't offer me the cash i know i'd be frustrated.



If he had to compromise to that extent then he was being completely unrealistic in the first place. Again, if it was on his own dime (not contracted) then he can do what he likes. It sounds like he oversold what he would be able to produce, and if I was the record label I'd have the feeling that I was being dicked around. The "people giving cash" issue is a thorny one because he's already legally obliged to NB.



Dan said:


> If everyone took your narrow minded approach we wouldn't have advancements in any field and we would be living in the dark ages. People push boundaries to do what other people have never done before. In regards to your 1000 piece orchestra comment; no you don't NEED to have that amount of orchestra, but then again you don't NEED two eyeballs to see do you? But i'm sure you would compromise given the choice right?



Irrelevant. He's not inventing anything, per se. At some point he's promised to provide his label with something that they can commercially release, and he seems to have screwed up in this regard.

If he wants to be a professional/full-time musician then that's a job. With responsibilities.



Dan said:


> Urm... Maybe because in a full time job he wouldn't have the time to write, record and produce his music and he still wouldn't have finished the first album?. Bit of a redundant comment there.



This just makes him sound like an entitled prat. I wish that I could quit my day job to concentrate on my art with someone else paying me for it. Guess what? Ain't going to happen. He's either got a huge ego or has no idea how the world works.



Dan said:


> Personally i think Jari knows exactly what he's doing but he simply doesn't have the space to craft his work at the speed people expect him to. If people were constantly complaining that you weren't releasing music fast enough and wanted to offer you money to finish, but your music label wouldn't let you accept it because they want a big cut wouldn't you be a little pissed off?



Alternative funding is probably a legal minefield, again, plus the fact that NB has already given him money for the rights to distribute. And if, as you say, he knows what he's doing then I'd be really pissed off if I was his label rep!



Dan said:


> People can be bitch about his attitude all they want, and can take the "Metalsucks" approach to the topic but all the guy wants is a space to finish his music, craft his art and stop people bugging him for music he currently can't create. If the end result is more music like Time I then i'd be more than happy to give the guy money.



His attitude does suck. In a perfect world I'd agree with him but it isn't. He seems to have made promises that he has been unable to keep for reasons that are entirely his own (artistic).

He might well be a genius musically. He also seems to be pretty egotistical and has made some crappy decisions on multiple levels.


----------



## hairychris

A couple of notes:

1) Leonardo da Vinci, the genius's genius, did most of his work commercially. He was paid to produce. Unfortunately he got in to trouble with some commissions that he started without finishing...

2) I'm friends with some guys who used to be in a London band who were fairly well known a few years ago. The tale of their recording an album that almost destroyed a record label is too long (and sensitive) to go in to here. I'm not sure whether anyone actually got declared legally bankrupt over that but if not it was a close thing!  And, FWIW, they all held down jobs while doing this as well.


----------



## Dan

hairychris said:


> The whole quote, don't want to clog up the news feed



I understand what you are saying perfectly in regards to loans etc being paid up front for work, and technically all debts have been paid off for said work (Time was supposed to only be 1 album, but I don't know the ins and outs of his contract with NB so I can't comment per se). The issue at hand here isn't in regards to him writing anything for his contract, it's all about being able to craft what's been written in an environment that will offer the best possible outcome. I think a lot of people fail to realise exactly how difficult it is to mix and produce an album with prominent orchestra. I've done it, I do it and I can tell you for a fact its an total aural nightmare.

As I've stated in my original post a few pages back I don't agree with the way Jari has brought this issue to light, but there isn't a chance in hell I would release an album if I thought the mix and the production didn't do the material justice.

You have to understand this man gets scores of people every day asking him when the record will be finished. A project like Time actually takes time, and a hell of a lot of it if you can only do your job at certain times under less than acceptable conditions. I wouldn't expect to be able to record well in a bedroom studio at awkward times, and neither would i (personally) want to head into a recording studio for a week when I know I won't get the music right in that space of time. I can totally understand that this constant bombardment coupled with not being able to finish work properly has left him frustrated and exhausted. 

It's like being nagged at work to finish a really big project when you've only got the tools to work at a snails pace and they will only let you do it between 1-2 every day . I think I feel for the dude a lot more than some of you because I do a lot of what he is doing right now, and I'm experiencing many of the same problems. I still  all you guys though! Hahah


----------



## Petef2007

Dan said:


> Would you tell a writer how to write their novel? Or an artist how to paint their painting? Jari's an extremely competent studio producer, but then again if it was other producers who work from their homes (naming no names) people would be 100% on his side.



No, I wouldn't tell a writer how to write their novel. But no ones telling Jari how to write his music. Using your example of a novelist, I would not tell them how to write the book, but I sure as shit would have something to say if they then decided not to release said book because no printer could print it to their satisfaction unless it was a printer owned by the writer themselves. The songwriting isn't what i'm getting at, its the excuses he gives for holding it back. 



Dan said:


> He also has an endorsement with Ibanez and i'd imagine he will have received those guitars either free or at a highly reduced rate to promote the business. For the Wintersun album he used a Tokai Telecaster which is worth about £350.



Then why isn't said Tokai Telecaster good enough for Time. This is the essence of what i'm saying. Jari is making out that nothing but the absolute best will be good enough for his vision, when the reality is, he accomplished some awesome metal on the first album with a £350 guitar. Even if he got them at a reduced rate due to an endorsement (assuming he didn't get them for free), he still had to pay for them....using what finances?



Dan said:


> If you'd taken a moment to read his clarification post he had to make a lot of compromise to get Time I out. I know if i wasn't happy with a mix then i would sit on it and wait till i could do a better job. I've got a full albums worth of material from about 2 years ago still waiting to be released because i can't afford the right person to mix it. If people were willing to give me money to finish my album and my label wouldn't offer me the cash i know i'd be frustrated.



Then why not build UP to Time? Release albums like the first one to keep interest in the band going, but constantly work towards the masterpiece? I get not releasing something that you're not happy with, but I don't think Jari released the S/T, then sat back and went "this needs about 1000 more tracks to it". I'm sure he could have done some more S/T sounding stuff with Wintersun while waiting for the technology to catch up to what he wanted to do. Its what James Cameron did with Avatar. 




Dan said:


> If everyone took your narrow minded approach we wouldn't have advancements in any field and we would be living in the dark ages. People push boundaries to do what other people have never done before. In regards to your 1000 piece orchestra comment; no you don't NEED to have that amount of orchestra, but then again you don't NEED two eyeballs to see do you? But i'm sure you would compromise given the choice right?



The 1000 piece orchestra, I think its just complete overkill. Regarding the eyeballs comparison, people get along fine with just one, or none. Are you saying that without the orchestras Wintersun will cease to be a thing? If the compromise was losing one eye, or losing both, which would you choose?




Dan said:


> Urm... Maybe because in a full time job he wouldn't have the time to write, record and produce his music and he still wouldn't have finished the first album?. Bit of a redundant comment there.



I completely, utterly and entirely fail to see whats redundant about it. Jari needs money for a studio, NB isn't going to cough up that amount, and without employment Jari is broke. Hes already said before he lives off the Finnish Social Security, which if its anything like the UK benefits, probably just about covers the rent for his apartment. 

I get wanting to do your thing full time with music, but surely there should be some form of viable financial backup? Point me to another band on Wintersuns level who live entirely off music and don't have day jobs. I think even the big names like Symphony X had day jobs until midway through their careers. I'm fairly sure the Scar Symmetry guys, for example, have day jobs - and they're far more established than Wintersun. 

So Jari wants a studio filled with all the shiney toys he wants? Well, why not do what the rest of us poor saps do and WORK FOR IT. Get a job, put savings away, buy a little here and a little there. Maybe even take a year off from Wintersun to work his ass off and save for what he wants like all the rest of us have to do, instead of begging for more money because hes broke. 

Also, if the dudes not been working for however many years, theres NO EXCUSE for taking so long to do anything other than the financial situation he places himself in. Are you telling me that for 8 years Jari has been working constantly on Time I? And with no outside obligations, and all the compromises he made to get it out, it STILL took nearly a decade? I get that Time I had its share of problems but I really doubt they took so long to sort out. 

That, in my opinion, is what I find 



Dan said:


> He's released 2 updates "bitching" about why he cant release albums.... and funnily enough he's released 2 albums! Go figure!



And we know more about the problems behind the albums than we do about the progress! Go figure! 

Believe me, I want Jari and Wintersun to succeed just as much as you do, and I'll buy Time II when its released. I've just grown tired of hearing more about the problems behind the albums than I have any actual news on them. I can't help thinking that most of the problems that Jari is having are of his own doing. 

I'm not having a go at you, I just have my own opinions on this whole thing, as you do. I _don't_ appreciate being called narrow minded just because we don't see eye to eye on this, though.


----------



## Icecold

Lorcan Ward said:


> How much money would a full studio cost?



That really depends, anywhere from a few thousand to hundreds of thousands of dollars. 
Jari has given no details on what he actually needs other than a "Studio". I'm waiting to see what he actually wants, but we gotta take what he said into account, he is looking to be in the studio "24/7 365" and that has to be paid for by someone.


----------



## Zalbu

> Well I´ve gotten some better equipments to do my job which is nice, but I´m still struggling and I´m missing the main pieze of the puzzle, the actual "work place&#8221;, which is a huge roadblock to continue forwards.





> I don´t owe Nuclear Blast or anyone anything.





> and all my debts are paid.





> I´m actually ok with the new deal. Except for the fact that I can´t make albums, because they won´t fund them enough for me to actually be able to make them and at the same time they are denying me doing a Wintersun crowd funding which probably would finance the studio.


And what he mentioned in the previous update: 


> They see the crowd funding as a threat to their business and they would rather see Wintersun dead, than me doing a crowd funding. I think this would not hurt them at all, only benefit them, but they cannot see the big picture of Wintersun doing well. They actually told me point blank that I should just stop making music and they will never release Wintersun from the contract.


This is what it boils down to, IMO. He's got most of the gear and only needs a place to record which I don't doubt he'd accomplish with a fundraiser.

The last quote may very well be hyperbole but it sounds like he's getting shafted by the contract. He doesn't owe Nuclear Blast any money, but they still want to take money from a fundraiser? And it sounds like Nuclear Blast are owning the Wintersun name so he can't break the contract and release music under the Wintersun name independently (unless I'm misinterpreting it)?


----------



## Icecold

If I learned anything from being a hardcore Megadeth fan, it's that you should take everything an artist says with a grain of salt, especially on their own turf. Not trying to swat down your post, Zaibu, but until we see the numbers I have to be really skeptical.


----------



## abandonist

I don't know this guy from Adam. I've never heard his music. 

I have a degree in audio engineering from back when we spliced actual tape to get things done. I've recorded dozens of records on a 4 track tape deck that sounded acceptable. You simply don't need what he's asking for. I don't care what his music sounds like. If the goddamn Beach Boys can record Pet Sounds (in the 60s!) I can't feel sympathy for dude. It's crazy town and egocentric to crash a computer mixing an album. For .... sake, mix your orchestral parts and bounce to a smaller number of tracks! He wants to DIY this thing and has shown zero DIY spirit. 

I'm not saying he HAS to do these things. I'm just saying there are hundreds of other ways to get things done to a professional degree without sacrificing his "vision" (don't even get me started on the load of bullshit that comes down to). 

You know that friend that went to art school and insists he's an actor? Refuses to get another job even though he's only booked one commercial in 8 years? That guys sucks. No one cares when he whines about his situation. Grow up. At least a little. Or get down from the cross and show some results. 

What exactly does his "studio" contain? Are you building him a house? A room with electricity? A spaceship with all the latest gear? What the hell IS the thing?


----------



## Noxon

abandonist said:


> I don't know this guy from Adam. I've never heard his music.
> 
> I have a degree in audio engineering from back when we spliced actual tape to get things done. I've recorded dozens of records on a 4 track tape deck that sounded acceptable. You simply don't need what he's asking for. I don't care what his music sounds like. If the goddamn Beach Boys can record Pet Sounds (in the 60s!) I can't feel sympathy for dude. It's crazy town and egocentric to crash a computer mixing an album. For .... sake, mix your orchestral parts and bounce to a smaller number of tracks! He wants to DIY this thing and has shown zero DIY spirit.
> 
> I'm not saying he HAS to do these things. I'm just saying there are hundreds of other ways to get things done to a professional degree without sacrificing his "vision" (don't even get me started on the load of bullshit that comes down to).
> 
> You know that friend that went to art school and insists he's an actor? Refuses to get another job even though he's only booked one commercial in 8 years? That guys sucks. No one cares when he whines about his situation. Grow up. At least a little. Or get down from the cross and show some results.
> 
> What exactly does his "studio" contain? Are you building him a house? A room with electricity? A spaceship with all the latest gear? What the hell IS the thing?



Dude, yes! Very well put, sir.


----------



## Thorerges

Wait why doesn't this guy get a real job?


----------



## Jarmake

Talk about a first world problem


----------



## hairychris

Zalbu said:


> The last quote may very well be hyperbole but it sounds like he's getting shafted by the contract. He doesn't owe Nuclear Blast any money, but they still want to take money from a fundraiser? And it sounds like Nuclear Blast are owning the Wintersun name so he can't break the contract and release music under the Wintersun name independently (unless I'm misinterpreting it)?



If he's signed a multiple-release deal he will have promised Nuclear Blast x number of albums under the Wintersun name. There may be other issues, like merchandising, although often that's handles separately. In exchange NB will pay a certain amount of royalties, handle promotion, give an advance, etc, again dependent on exact details.

Jari owns the name (unless he signed it across, doubtful) and the copyright to the music (unless that was also signed across, a real problem for artists in the past - ie The Beatles - but less so now) but he cannot release his music through anyone else until he has fulfilled his contract with NB.

He could get his contract released, usually through payment (Nirvana was bought out of their contract after Bleach, and Sub Pop got a chunk of cash and royalties from Nevermind in compensation)... or if the band folds, but that may leave him liable for money that he's already received and also leave unreleased material as probably belonging to the record company. If he's a one-man outfit there could also be problems if he carried on under simply a different name.

Without knowing the details it's tough to say if he's being "shafted". From what he writes it sounds like he's quit his day job, blown his advance, and the label are cautious about crowdsourcing because it may conflict with their legitimate claim on forthcoming material which has been promised to them.


----------



## Watty

Dan said:


> If everyone took your narrow minded approach we wouldn't have advancements in any field and we would be living in the dark ages. People push boundaries to do what other people have never done before. In regards to your 1000 piece orchestra comment; no you don't NEED to have that amount of orchestra, but then again you don't NEED two eyeballs to see do you? But i'm sure you would compromise given the choice right?



I just have to say that I am the king of using hyperbolic arguments (i.e. if you believe X, then you must also believe Y because it technically follows, but makes your position look absolutely crazy) in practice and even I have to go with....WTF?

It's plain to see that you like the guy, which is fine, but defending him to the point of using arguments like that seems a bit much.


----------



## Zalbu

https://www.facebook.com/wintersun/posts/10152746303537402

Interesting, looks like they've might've come to an agreement with Nuclear Blast after all.


----------



## MassNecrophagia

What the hell is he going to offer his fans in order to "crowd fund" his dream studio? He can't offer his album (or possibly even merch) because NB gets either a cut of that or has sole distribution rights.

I don't know what this guy's contract looks like, but it seems like more of the "I don't know what the .... kickstarter is" deal

EDIT: It actually appears that Wintersun fans are willing to straight-up donate to getting Jari a studio. Good for them/him. I can see why NB would take issue with it, though.


----------



## Jarmake

MassNecrophagia said:


> What the hell is he going to offer his fans in order to "crowd fund" his dream studio? He can't offer his album (or possibly even merch) because NB gets either a cut of that or has sole distribution rights.
> 
> I don't know what this guy's contract looks like, but it seems like more of the "I don't know what the .... kickstarter is" deal
> 
> EDIT: It actually appears that Wintersun fans are willing to straight-up donate to getting Jari a studio. Good for them/him. I can see why NB would take issue with it, though.



Maybe something from all those songs he has written by now... Wasn't he supposed to have incredible material for five albums or so?


----------



## Lorcan Ward

I would gladly donate for a Skype lesson/future solo album but 95% of people are going to want something Wintersun related.

This survey is only to get an idea of what they could achieve before they bring a plan to Nuclear Blast.


----------



## fps

Jarmake said:


> Maybe something from all those songs he has written by now... Wasn't he supposed to have incredible material for five albums or so?



As an alternative view, haven't we all had killer ideas/ "material" that it would take over a year to really bash into shape? I have riffs hanging about that I really like, but incorporating them into something would take a long time. 

That's about my only concession in this, mind. I am firmly on the "you signed a contract, deliver something" side of this debate.


----------



## Chiba666

Who knows what he has planned but I for one am interested and will hear him out and if I like the proposal then I may be inclined to donate.
Could be something as simple as 1 feree show ticket to a venue of your choosing, back stage meet and great sort of deal through to as metioned before skype lessons, who knows but Wintersun is a band of 4 people so there is a lot of possabilities but we can wait and see. It could be something as epic as an invite tot he opening of ths studio with a performance, travel at your won expense sort of deal. That Iw ould go for no drama, I live Helsinki so any chance for another visit would be good.

Had the chance to go and say hi at Tuska this year but as he was with a few of the guys from Ensiferum I left them to chat and relax, what a missed oppertunity that was.


----------



## tacotiklah

Time was good, but holy hell does this guy need to tone it down several pegs. 

People in music are under the gun all the time. It comes with the goddamn territory of being a gigging/recording musician. If you don't like it, make music a hobby and figure out another career path.
Some of the greatest albums ever made were done so on low budget, crap productions. I'm all for doing a great production, but when you care more about adding 1000+ instruments in the background that 1 or 2 audiophiles might pick up on with exceptional quality headphones, you're being beyond unrealistic. 
Straight up, if I were running a label and an artist wanted me to fund them a private studio after their last album didn't even reach gold levels, I'd drop them like a bad habit. I don't tolerate prima donna attitudes and I don't expect NB to tolerate it either. They gave him money to do a job and he blew all the cash and didn't deliver. It's not up to the label to coddle him to make sure he's sticking to a budget. How he manages his cash is his problem. Harsh, but that's how business works.

Here's Jari's options at this point:
1.) Stfu and record the album and deliver on the promise he made to the label
2.) Stfu and record the album and deliver on the promise he made to the label
3.) Stfu and record the album and deliver on the promise he made to the label
4.) Stfu and record the album and deliver on the promise he made to the label

Take your pick Jari.


----------



## Fred the Shred

I'm a massive Wintersun fan, but some of the points in this thread are a bit on the surreal side of things. Bigger bands than them actually do get jobs to complement income during the times of writing a new album to keep them afloat and make sure they can cover the recording / production costs that may not be fully covered by the label's advance and they still manage to put out albums consistently, some of which with remarkable arrangements and production.

Also, as for the whole gear thing, if you want to do everything yourself, you are to understand you build up to the optimal setup or as close to it as possible, not sit on your ass waiting for the very best studio money can buy. Sorry, I've done way too many sessions over the last 20 years to defend a point of view where you believe such means to be required to be able to produce a quality album, especially considering the diminishing returns on your investment after a certain point in the "high end" studio gear.

Again, I love the guy and he's a fabulous musician and composer, but he needs to wake up to reality - this is about work, function, and finding a solid compromise that doesn't hose the quality of the final product AND doesn't require him to be at the level of Metallica to afford.


----------



## coreysMonster

I don't know Jari, I don't know Wintersun, I don't know the details of his contract or his situation, but the problems he lists all have solutions. They might not be perfect, but they ARE solutions that would make his situation better than it is right now. People in this thread have given a myriad of suggestions and ways he could make his life easier. 
Again, I don't know the specifics or the guy in question, but this to me reeks of someone who would rather sit around and wait for some magical perfect thing to fall into his lap, rather than concede that he can't have everything and make do with what he has - which is still tons more than a lot of other people have.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Shit, Nuclear Blast can pay me not to make records...

Actually, I would probably have made five records by now....


----------



## Defi

This man is so talented and has potential to write such great music, but holy balls does he get over obsessed. Wintersun's self titled was an amazing album and I guess he felt he needed to top the shit out of it and went way way way overboard with this "orchestral" nightmare Time. I mean, playing a live show that requires 4 axe fxs and a cubase project switching everything and running samples... just... too much. 

He doesn't need all this flare to make good music, it's holding him back.

Ensiferum's Iron and wintersun's s/t are damn good Jari jams. I love them both. Time is just... a cluster fu_c_k, and I'm guessing Time II is going to be more clustier fu_c_kier.

Aaaand now I just read Jari's post... good god. I'm sure my opinion is nothing new but... Jesus. Take a step down from the pedestal. Good music does not need a professional studio, and I am sad to see a musician hung up on these details. I can't think of any worse reason to cease making music than feeling "my production quality isn't high enough." What the fup_c_k does the word art mean in artist anymore. There are many, many people making music in far worse scenarios that don't feel such a sense of entitlement.


----------



## Watty

Lorcan Ward said:


> I would gladly donate for a Skype lesson/future solo album but 95% of people are going to want something Wintersun related.



And how is he going to offer a lesson if he's busy recording said material? 

I kid. I kid.

But still, I guess it's cool that enough people are into it, though I'm definitely still of the mind that there's plenty of people out there with almost nothing making music on a level (production wise) close to him, so it's still a bit whiny to me....


----------



## Bodes

Best reply yet on FB:







I laughed!


----------



## abandonist

This is my favorite thread.


----------



## Zalbu

All this talk about how he has to "deliver on his promise made to the label" is ultimately pointless now when he reached an agreement with Nuclear Blast about the kickstarter. Like it or not but Jari said that he won't compromise anymore and Nuclear Blast has got his back, at least for now.


----------



## BrailleDecibel

Reading through this thread, I can't help but be reminded of this:


----------



## Icecold

They agreed to do a survey to see if they can even come close to achieving what he wants for it. If Nuclear Blast sees that they do not have to pour anymore money into this, it would be the right move for them to do so. 

The fact that it even came down to this is silly.


----------



## abandonist

With all this hubbub, he better Come Correct with this damn thing.


----------



## Petef2007

Not even touching this after what I got here last time. Just gonna sit back and see what unfolds.


----------



## GunpointMetal

The longer it takes for him to man up and start making some music, the more he looks like a dick.


----------



## Icecold

GunpointMetal said:


> The longer it takes for him to man up and start making some music, the more he looks like a dick.




We have no information on how long it will take for the studio to be built if the goal is even met. We have no info at all if costs of contracting and construction is even being taken into account, what the long term plan on this studio even is, and if it is going to involve people who have actual experience building recording studios. 

The most important thing is that we don't even have a ball park number for what he is even looking for. If it's anything like I think it will be, I'm talking 6 figures American, then the guy is already a complete dick in my eyes for even asking his audience to foot that bill. 

So, Jari has said pretty much outright that the album is banking on whatever that goal is to be met, or it doesn't happen.


----------



## guitarfan85

Shit, can I have six figures up front to make an album? Please? Were all short handed here jari!


----------



## Dan

Watty said:


> I just have to say that I am the king of using hyperbolic arguments (i.e. if you believe X, then you must also believe Y because it technically follows, but makes your position look absolutely crazy) in practice and even I have to go with....WTF?
> 
> It's plain to see that you like the guy, which is fine, but defending him to the point of using arguments like that seems a bit much.



What I was getting at is why should someone have to compromise his art simply because some individuals believe as it hasn't been done before it shouldn't be attempted? It's not that I like the guy, he's an extremely talented musician and either poor initial business choices or lack of resources have left him unable to complete his work to the standard he expects. I can relate to that and it's a frustrating process. 

As i've mentioned on several posts here if it were simply a guitar based album i'd be pissed too, but there's so much orchestra that needs to be fine tuned if you don't have acceptable surroundings to mix that in it will never happen. Subtle nuances make or break records like Time, and I wouldn't really want to wait another 8 years for the next record. 

Even I think this has gone a little too far now. I simply expected him to crowdfund for a studio space to move his existing gear into in order to complete the new record. I suppose we will have to see what the crowd funding campaign actually states now.


----------



## Zalbu

> Even I think this has gone a little too far now. I simply expected him to crowdfund for a studio space to move his existing gear into in order to complete the new record. I suppose we will have to see what the crowd funding campaign actually states now.



It sounds to me that this is what they'll do, or at least something similar since Jari did say in one of the gigantic posts that he has most of the gear he needs. And the picture he posted on Facebook even includes a blueprint of the "Wintersun headquarters" https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net...=2293e808f1930c3096f9efefa60cfbab&oe=54C38341



> During these years I´ve been already acquiring studio gear and started doing most of the stuff myself and I love it! I´ve gotta pretty good DAW and monitor setup, so basically I got most of the studio gear already. But there´s still one major thing that is missing and that is the studio space. A place to work without interruptions, where I can crank up guitar amps 24/7, 365 days a year without the neighbors calling the cops, to record and practise my singing everyday, to record drums and so on&#8230; Having everything always set up ready to record and to mix night or day in a good mixing room would speed up the whole process immensely. It would be also great for the whole band, ´cause we´d have our own rehearsal room for the first time, sort of &#8220;Wintersun headquarters&#8221;. This would really free us to make albums much faster with better quality and able us to tour more often, which then would open the possibilities financially to other things like upgrading our live shows, doing ten minute music videos for our long songs, a live DVD maybe even with a real orchestra...


----------



## vibrantgermancities

Are those mock-blueprints actually from Jari, or is that a joke? Has this actually turned into fans buying the guy a house (and presumably the land to build it on - not sure how Finnish real estate works)? All because he quit his job years ago and has made zero effort to earn a living like everyone else in the meantime?

And in return he's going to email me some .WAV files? In maybe 5 years?

I'm not sure how anyone could have any sympathy for the man anymore.


----------



## Zalbu

vibrantgermancities said:


> Are those mock-blueprints actually from Jari, or is that a joke? Has this actually turned into fans buying the guy a house (and presumably the land to build it on - not sure how Finnish real estate works)? All because he quit his job years ago and has made zero effort to earn a living like everyone else in the meantime?
> 
> And in return he's going to email me some .WAV files? In maybe 5 years?
> 
> I'm not sure how anyone could have any sympathy for the man anymore.


What does this have to do with sympathy? This is like any other band fundraiser except that the money goes to a place for the to practice and record albums on their own instead of just funding an album to let other people produce them. Don't help him out if you don't want to, but the people who wants to hear new Wintersun music that isn't being compromised on the quality will help them out.


----------



## tacotiklah

New life lesson:

Whenever I want more money, I just have to bitch and whine on facebook and labels will give me more of it.


----------



## Petef2007

I was going to stay away from this but I can't. Guess i'm just as big a sucker for drama as the next human being.

The problem here I think is that Jari, for what he wants, is going to need a CRAPTON of money. And I just can't see him making it in a crowdfund. Assuming the picture he put on facebook is accurate in what he wants (and i'm assuming it is), he doesn't just want a studio. If its a joke, well, the egg is firmly all over my face in that case.

He essentially wants to build a house with a studio tacked onto it. Look at the sauna, tvs, showers, bedroom etc and tell me Jari won't want to live there when its done. 

Which I think is gonna cost way more money than he could crowdfund. Which won't resolve any of the issues hes having now. Which means no Time II. In a way its like hes holding the album hostage till fans give in to his demands. If he makes it off the crowdfund, fair play to him. I've never known a band ask so much of the fans though. Its one thing to crowdfund to go INTO a studio like Protest The Hero did. Its another thing entirely to crowdfund FOR a studio. 

I'm so done supporting this guy, but everything about this whole thing is just unbelievable comedy gold at this point.


----------



## Necris

tacotiklah said:


> New life lesson:
> 
> Whenever I want more money, I just have to bitch and whine on facebook and labels will give me more of it.



As long as you can convince teenagers and 20-something metal fans that you're the greatest lol composer of all time and back it up with enough whining they'll foot the bill for you to build your own house with money _they_ make at _their_ jobs. 
Get going, there's no downside!

"Thanks for the house, here are those .wav and .pdf files I promised you."


----------



## isispelican

I really want to hear the new stuff, that pic has to be a joke though right?


----------



## Defi

Yes, his facebook post is a joke too, but it's all in the eye of the beholder.


----------



## Icecold

Petef2007 said:


> I was going to stay away from this but I can't. Guess i'm just as big a sucker for drama as the next human being.
> 
> The problem here I think is that Jari, for what he wants, is going to need a CRAPTON of money. And I just can't see him making it in a crowdfund. Assuming the picture he put on facebook is accurate in what he wants (and i'm assuming it is), he doesn't just want a studio. If its a joke, well, the egg is firmly all over my face in that case.
> 
> He essentially wants to build a house with a studio tacked onto it. Look at the sauna, tvs, showers, bedroom etc and tell me Jari won't want to live there when its done.
> 
> Which I think is gonna cost way more money than he could crowdfund. Which won't resolve any of the issues hes having now. Which means no Time II. In a way its like hes holding the album hostage till fans give in to his demands. If he makes it off the crowdfund, fair play to him. I've never known a band ask so much of the fans though. Its one thing to crowdfund to go INTO a studio like Protest The Hero did. Its another thing entirely to crowdfund FOR a studio.
> 
> I'm so done supporting this guy, but everything about this whole thing is just unbelievable comedy gold at this point.




No one should give you crap about your view point, honestly. This thread is great in the way that everyone on both sides of the ball have presented their case and no one is actually wrong. This is a really broad issue, not just because of what is being asked, but who is in fact asking for it. 

I don't take the picture he presented as serious just because he has "sauna" on there. But I don't think the blue print is that far off from what he is going to be shooting for. The thing is, it doesn't matter what kind of gear the guy puts in there, the cost of sound proofing, air and heating(which is a factor in tracking rooms), labor, contracting, and what ever the hell else needs to be done isn't even being considered by the fans, because the fact is, the fans have no clue what it actually takes to make this whole thing happen, and the more and more I hear Jari talk about this, I don't think he does either.


----------



## Petef2007

^ thats exactly it, you've hit the nail on the head there - whatever Jari needs for a full studio, lets assume the picture isn't accurate and was just a joke, he still needs all the stuff you mentioned ie. soundproofing, labor, contracting etc..so its still gonna be pretty pricey. And the way its been worded, both in this update and in previous ones, makes it sound like Time II isn't happening unless his studio does.


----------



## abandonist

Remember the time I tried to talk about crowdfunding being out of control and everyone bit my head off?


----------



## Zalbu

abandonist said:


> Remember the time I tried to talk about crowdfunding being out of control and everyone bit my head off?


Like the time a guy got $55k because he wanted to make some potato salad?

This discussion have been had countless times before. The entire point of fundraisers is that you can do whatever the hell you want and nobody is forced to pay. Besides, nobody except for Jari and Nuclear Blast actually knows what the deal between them consists of and what the money is going to be used for at this point.


----------



## Gothic Headhunter

Bullshit. I'm pretty sure that money is going to be used for bullshit.


----------



## ghost_of_karelia

I don't like getting involved in stuff like this, but Wintersun being my favourite band I feel the call of nature and am compelled by the sons of winter and stars to chime in.

I love this band. Like, genuinely love them. I listen to both of their albums regularly (and have done for a year and a half) and Jari/Teemu are my greatest influences, both for guitar and for composing. I soil my pants in ecstasy every time I hear Way of the Fire and I can't wait for Time II to drop, and I 100% support them in the decision to try and create their own studio space in order to make their job easier on them and cut all of Jari's technological headaches.

However, the one thing I don't agree with is the path they're taking to do so.

Asking your audience to pay for something 100%, from foundations to coffee machines, is downright rude. It's equal to saying "hey there, we KNOW you like this meth so if you want some more you better buy me a camper van, college dropout assistant and beard to go with this moustache". If Jari is being honest when he claims that he's unable to do Time II without this studio and he's currently unemployed, well that equals a whole shit ton of free time. Get a job. I'm not talking about going to med school and raking in a six-figure salary by performing open heart surgery. Walk some dogs, jerk off some lonely neckbeards. Hell, wash the neighbour's frigging car. I do. (the car, that is, not the neckbeards)

If you're serious about this and it's the only way forward, then demonstrate such by putting work into it. You're asking us for the money we've worked for. You're asking us to deal with pissy McDonalds customers, set our backs out lifting heavy shit in a warehouse, watch members of the public die in the back of our ambulances (okay, that's a little extreme). 

Point is, don't ask us for money you're not willing to work equally as hard for.


----------



## GunpointMetal

jarvncaredoc said:


> However, the one thing I don't agree with is the path they're taking to do so.
> 
> Asking your audience to pay for something 100%, from foundations to coffee machines, is downright rude. It's equal to saying "hey there, we KNOW you like this meth so if you want some more you better buy me a camper van, college dropout assistant and beard to go with this moustache". If Jari is being honest when he claims that he's unable to do Time II without this studio and he's currently unemployed, well that equals a whole shit ton of free time. Get a job. I'm not talking about going to med school and raking in a six-figure salary by performing open heart surgery. Walk some dogs, jerk off some lonely neckbeards. Hell, wash the neighbour's frigging car. I do. (the car, that is, not the neckbeards)
> 
> If you're serious about this and it's the only way forward, then demonstrate such by putting work into it. You're asking us for the money we've worked for. You're asking us to deal with pissy McDonalds customers, set our backs out lifting heavy shit in a warehouse, watch members of the public die in the back of our ambulances (okay, that's a little extreme).
> 
> Point is, don't ask us for money you're not willing to work equally as hard for.



fVcking exactly! Hey, I really like the music I make, too. And I would love to do it all day. But, that's not realistic. It's not even realistic for a lot bands in metal (and its various sub/side-genres) that are "successful" in terms of touring and an audience. He's already making music in a niche of a niche, and I'm sure most of the other artists/bands in a similar vein understand that if they're got going to live on the road, they will work some shitty-ass jobs when they get home. Or they will teach hundreds of hours of instrument lessons, etc.. As far as I know, that's called being a fvcking adult.


----------



## abandonist

Zalbu said:


> Like the time a guy got $55k because he wanted to make some potato salad?
> 
> This discussion have been had countless times before. The entire point of fundraisers is that you can do whatever the hell you want and nobody is forced to pay. Besides, nobody except for Jari and Nuclear Blast actually knows what the deal between them consists of and what the money is going to be used for at this point.



Potato Salad exposed the kickstarter game for being completely bankrupt. People memetically decided to give a dude a pile of cash for nothing because it was in the news and "ironic". I can only hope the people that donated to that are raped by wolves.

I mean, you can do whatever you like with your money, but building someone a commercial grade studio/house without any investment return is... not a sound financial decision. I can't wait until this generation comes of age and realizes life is different from what they think.


----------



## Zalbu

abandonist said:


> Potato Salad exposed the kickstarter game for being completely bankrupt. People memetically decided to give a dude a pile of cash for nothing because it was in the news and "ironic". I can only hope the people that donated to that are raped by wolves.
> 
> I mean, you can do whatever you like with your money, but building someone a commercial grade studio/house without any investment return is... not a sound financial decision. I can't wait until this generation comes of age and realizes life is different from what they think.


Not a sound financial decision for who? The fans or Nuclear Blast? Because both will be benefiting from Wintersun being able to put out higher-quality albums more regularly and being able to tour more frequently.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Zalbu said:


> Not a sound financial decision for who? The fans or Nuclear Blast? Because both will be benefiting from Wintersun being able to put out higher-quality albums more regularly and being able to tour more frequently.


Yeah....once his studio is finished a year or two from now....and he takes the time to micro-produce every inch of it.....

It seems to me this guys thinks he's Beethoven or something, but guess what, that guy had a job too..


----------



## Gothic Headhunter

Just replace Washington Redskins with Wintersun.


----------



## abandonist

Zalbu said:


> Not a sound financial decision for who? The fans or Nuclear Blast? Because both will be benefiting from Wintersun being able to put out higher-quality albums more regularly and being able to tour more frequently.


Both. I can't believe you don't grasp this.


----------



## mgh

jarvncaredoc said:


> I don't like getting involved in stuff like this, but Wintersun being my favourite band I feel the call of nature and am compelled by the sons of winter and stars to chime in.
> 
> I love this band. Like, genuinely love them. I listen to both of their albums regularly (and have done for a year and a half) and Jari/Teemu are my greatest influences, both for guitar and for composing. I soil my pants in ecstasy every time I hear Way of the Fire and I can't wait for Time II to drop, and I 100% support them in the decision to try and create their own studio space in order to make their job easier on them and cut all of Jari's technological headaches.
> 
> However, the one thing I don't agree with is the path they're taking to do so.
> 
> Asking your audience to pay for something 100%, from foundations to coffee machines, is downright rude. It's equal to saying "hey there, we KNOW you like this meth so if you want some more you better buy me a camper van, college dropout assistant and beard to go with this moustache". If Jari is being honest when he claims that he's unable to do Time II without this studio and he's currently unemployed, well that equals a whole shit ton of free time. Get a job. I'm not talking about going to med school and raking in a six-figure salary by performing open heart surgery. Walk some dogs, jerk off some lonely neckbeards. Hell, wash the neighbour's frigging car. I do. (the car, that is, not the neckbeards)
> 
> If you're serious about this and it's the only way forward, then demonstrate such by putting work into it. You're asking us for the money we've worked for. You're asking us to deal with pissy McDonalds customers, set our backs out lifting heavy shit in a warehouse, watch members of the public die in the back of our ambulances (okay, that's a little extreme).
> 
> Point is, don't ask us for money you're not willing to work equally as hard for.



DOn't know if you've heard of them, and this is a bit OT, but if you want to hear the album that Time I could have been give a listen to 'Ubuntu' by Kalter - their first album is pure Wintersun worship but the second is a prog-DM masterpiece!


----------



## bhakan

One other potential issue with this whole thing is the expenses after the initial build. If he is living off of welfare now and can only afford a tiny apartment, even if he does get all the money he needs to build this studio, he will still have to pay property taxes, electric, etc. Would he even be able to afford owning and operating this studio?

Overall the annoying thing with Jari is that he clearly thinks he is too good of a musician to work. I 100% respect him not wanting to release a sub-par record, but if he doesn't have the resources, get a job. He claims he has 5 albums of material written. He doesn't need any more time to write. So many bands nowadays hold some form of normal job to fund their music, why does he think he is too good for that?


----------



## Icecold

I don't know how many of you guys remember the period between Wintersun's first album and a few years before Time I actually dropped, but the self-titled album was very highly regarded in the Metal community. Much more then than it is now. Jari straight up believes his own hype.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Icecold said:


> Jari straight up believes his own hype.



That's exactly what I was thinking. Ego's getting the better of him and the praise behind Time probably sent him over the edge.


----------



## Defi

I was going to come in here to post south park kickstarter reference... beat to the punch.

I think south park sums up my feelings for kickstarter quite well.


----------



## Chiba666

New update dropped with more info.

https://www.facebook.com/wintersun


----------



## isispelican

"cause I know I can make some pretty good albums, if I get the chance... Who am I kidding, some of the best albums there ever has been!"


----------



## GunpointMetal

This guy is so full of himself he probably thinks he shouldn't even have to ask.


----------



## Fat-Elf

I don't really like Wintersun but the sauna party perk for the Kickstarter thingy sounds pretty cool. Maybe Jari would let play some of his guitars.


----------



## Zalbu

abandonist said:


> Both. I can't believe you don't grasp this.


...how would the fans not benefit from throwing a few bucks to a Kickstarter and get the perks they paid for along with multiple new Wintersun records recorded to the standard Jari seeks and more frequent tours? Sounds like a steal to me.


----------



## Ikiharmaa

This reminds me of waiting for Time (I), and all the delays related it. Back then crowdfunding wasn't a thing though so this sort of scenario we have now wasn't possible.

I look forward 2020


----------



## xfilth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkxLEc3tgX0

Posted on his facebook. Is he actually serious?  Those black borders on the edges are clearly signs of the shaking being added in video editing software. Wouldn't be surprised if the sound was as well.  This guy


----------



## fps

Zalbu said:


> ...how would the fans not benefit from throwing a few bucks to a Kickstarter and get the perks they paid for along with multiple new Wintersun records recorded to the standard Jari seeks and more frequent tours? Sounds like a steal to me.



Because they're not going to get multiple new Wintersun records. The next album won't be out until 2018 at the earliest, that's my prediction. And the fans will feel the same then as Nuclear Blast do now, a feeling which formulates the question "We paid the money, where is the album?"


----------



## Zalbu

fps said:


> Because they're not going to get multiple new Wintersun records. The next album won't be out until 2018 at the earliest, that's my prediction. And the fans will feel the same then as Nuclear Blast do now, a feeling which formulates the question "We paid the money, where is the album?"


Why would it take that long? He's already working on Time II and the bulk of the material will be finished by the time the studio is done. Their debut album which many hail as a masterpiece was recorded in less than 6 months and now he's got 10 more years of knowledge and technological advancements under his belt.

And yes, we are in this position because how complex every song is to mix and record but that's exactly why he wants his own studio. I'd imagine that most of the orchestral stuff is already arranged because Jari said that one of the reasons he needs a studio is so he can reamp guitars.


----------



## Dan

Some of you guys really need to cool the butthurt off a little. It's getting to Avenged sevenfold levels of people mad at a band because others like them and want to buy their music. And we all know how much people hate Synyster Gates 

Jari kind of has a point with his "_The fact of the matter is that no one would be buying us anything. The fans would buy (pre-order) a product for themselves_" comment. If you don't like it, don't pre order it. Simple as that. The money that I spend buying a record I expect to go TO the artist. At least this way you know it's going toward an albums progress and more music. 

*If* he doesn't live up to his promises after people have paid money for the record then I'll be pissed off. Till then however:


----------



## GunpointMetal

I just don't see this guy making ANYTHING happen quickly. So in a year or two he has his studio, then he's going to hyper-stress about every last second of audio, on all 4.6 million tracks (for each song).....meaning the people who shell out for his studio will see Time II sometime before I retire....which will be never.


----------



## fps

Dan said:


> Some of you guys really need to cool the butthurt off a little. It's getting to Avenged sevenfold levels of people mad at a band because others like them and want to buy their music. And we all know how much people hate Synyster Gates
> 
> Jari kind of has a point with his "_The fact of the matter is that no one would be buying us anything. The fans would buy (pre-order) a product for themselves_" comment. If you don't like it, don't pre order it. Simple as that. The money that I spend buying a record I expect to go TO the artist. At least this way you know it's going toward an albums progress and more music.
> 
> *If* he doesn't live up to his promises after people have paid money for the record then I'll be pissed off. Till then however:



I think a big part of the choice crowd funders face is whether to trust the people they're paying to deliver on the product they're selling. So, for instance AltFest went bust, and the money is gone. And in this instance, he strikes me as someone who will take the money and then not produce. This is precisely what he has done with Nuclear Blast. So I'm not angry at all, and if people want to shell out for him, again no problem. But I am deeply concerned because I think they'll be paying money to the kind of person who will not then make it all happen. Not least because he'll have the reality of building a studio to contend with, and if there's one thing that's more likely to overrun than the album-making process, it's building something. What happens when the studio ends up 20% over budget, as is inevitable when building anything?


----------



## stevexc

Dan said:


> Jari kind of has a point with his "_The fact of the matter is that no one would be buying us anything. The fans would buy (pre-order) a product for themselves_" comment. If you don't like it, don't pre order it. Simple as that. The money that I spend buying a record I expect to go TO the artist. At least this way you know it's going toward an albums progress and more music.



+1

The way I want the music industry in general to work is I give money to an artist and I get music in return, along with the potential for future music. That's exactly what this is. I don't give a damn what Jari does with money he makes from music so long as he delivers on the music, just like I don't give a damn what the guy at McDonald's spends his money on when I buy a cheeseburger. 

Yes, I'm fully aware that it'll be a while for the album to come out. However I'm fully confident that it's an album Jari INTENDS to put out and quite frankly, that's good enough for me. It's a risk I'm willing to take.


However... giving Jari the ability to spend every waking moment working on his album with no limits? The lack of pressure is not going to do him any favors. It's going to be a long, long while for Time II to come out, he'll be picking at every little tiny detail. I think that much freedom will hurt a perfectionist like him.


----------



## Dan

fps said:


> I think a big part of the choice crowd funders face is whether to trust the people they're paying to deliver on the product they're selling. So, for instance AltFest went bust, and the money is gone. And in this instance, he strikes me as someone who will take the money and then not produce. This is precisely what he has done with Nuclear Blast. So I'm not angry at all, and if people want to shell out for him, again no problem. But I am deeply concerned because I think they'll be paying money to the kind of person who will not then make it all happen. Not least because he'll have the reality of building a studio to contend with, and if there's one thing that's more likely to overrun than the album-making process, it's building something. What happens when the studio ends up 20% over budget, as is inevitable when building anything?



Agreed on several points, but I think Time II is pretty much mixed anyway and this endeavour is for music going forward. Last time I heard Jari has nearly 5 albums worth of material ready to go. The reason Devvy knocks out records left right and centre is because he has the ability to do so at his leisure and I personally believe that this project could come to fruition should Wintersun as a band get the funding they require.

If you take a look back at the reasons Time I took so long it's kind of understandable. He'd recorded 80% of the first record when his computer fried on him, a rookie mistake not backing up onto an external hard drive but it cost another 2 and a half years (If memory serves me correctly) remixing and re-recording. I guess we will just have to wait and see what the outcome is.


----------



## TedEH

Zalbu said:


> Why would it take that long?



The simple answer is that he has a history of making promises and not delivering. Lets not forget that Time 2 was supposed to be part of Time 1. It was one album, that was supposed to come out in 2006. What's to stop him from releasing a whole two songs, calling it Time 1.5, and demanding we pay for another new house before he does any more work?

Even if you ignore the money and the delays- the guy has made a fool of himself publicly. He's too good for CDs, he's too good for MP3, he's too good for other people's studios, he's too good to get mixing help, etc. When they build his studio, they'd better make the doors big enough for his head to get through.

If this works out and the music is actually released, I'll certainly enjoy it for what it's worth, and give him props for making good on his promises- but until then I'm certainly not going to contribute to his studio or his ego trip.


----------



## Defi

xfilth said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkxLEc3tgX0
> 
> Posted on his facebook. Is he actually serious?  Those black borders on the edges are clearly signs of the shaking being added in video editing software. Wouldn't be surprised if the sound was as well.  This guy



$50 says those guys are digging in a new line to give his building the cleaner power he needs/wants


----------



## Zalbu

TedEH said:


> The simple answer is that he has a history of making promises and not delivering. Lets not forget that Time 2 was supposed to be part of Time 1. It was one album, that was supposed to come out in 2006. What's to stop him from releasing a whole two songs, calling it Time 1.5, and demanding we pay for another new house before he does any more work?


It's not like the delays happened because he's lazy and don't feel like putting out new music, he's had a bunch of hardware failure and not been able to mix the album in his apartment and stuff like that. Again, he recorded the self-titled debut in less than 6 months so he can haul ass if he wants to. He's said he has like 5 full albums worth of material sitting around that can be released if he actually have a place where he can record and mix.

Dude may be a perfectionist but he knows what sound he's after and he's a good enough musician and producer to actually make that happen, given the right gear/studio.


----------



## Necris

There were clear avenues through which he could have eased his technical issues and location issue and gotten Time I out a lot more quickly than he did. Is he releasing albums slowly because he's lazy? Maybe not directly, but he's certainly experiencing issues because he refuses to make concessions when reality doesn't work how he wants it to; his unwillingness to get a job is certainly directly related to the delay in Time I's release. That album didn't take 8 years to be released because he worked his ass off while trying to utilize every possible avenue to alleviate his problems and his efforts just weren't enough. 

What will happen if he has technical issues (such as a hard drive crash, or worse) this time around? I imagine he's all but eliminated any good will between himself and Nuclear Blast.


----------



## GunpointMetal

I guess what it comes down to with me, is, people who do nothing, deserve nothing. Making music isn't a right for anyone, even if you think you're awesome. It's like the guys who get out of college and don't have a job for 5 years because anything but what they have a degree in is below them.... Sometimes you gotta flip burgers to pay the bills, sometimes you have teach some lessons/flip burgers/scrape animals off the highway to make a record....


----------



## fps

Dan said:


> Agreed on several points, but I think Time II is pretty much mixed anyway and this endeavour is for music going forward. Last time I heard Jari has nearly 5 albums worth of material ready to go. The reason Devvy knocks out records left right and centre is because he has the ability to do so at his leisure and I personally believe that this project could come to fruition should Wintersun as a band get the funding they require.
> 
> If you take a look back at the reasons Time I took so long it's kind of understandable. He'd recorded 80% of the first record when his computer fried on him, a rookie mistake not backing up onto an external hard drive but it cost another 2 and a half years (If memory serves me correctly) remixing and re-recording. I guess we will just have to wait and see what the outcome is.



Hey it's possible. I guess time... will tell... 

*YEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH*


----------



## abandonist

You guys aren't pre-paying for a record. You're buying him a house/studio and he's offering some music as a perk. 

Kickstarter is bad economics. You get no ownership stake in the project you're investing in.


----------



## Icecold

TedEH said:


> The simple answer is that he has a history of making promises and not delivering. Lets not forget that Time 2 was supposed to be part of Time 1. It was one album, that was supposed to come out in 2006. What's to stop him from releasing a whole two songs, calling it Time 1.5, and demanding we pay for another new house before he does any more work?
> 
> Even if you ignore the money and the delays- the guy has made a fool of himself publicly. He's too good for CDs, he's too good for MP3, he's too good for other people's studios, he's too good to get mixing help, etc. When they build his studio, they'd better make the doors big enough for his head to get through.
> 
> If this works out and the music is actually released, I'll certainly enjoy it for what it's worth, and give him props for making good on his promises- but until then I'm certainly not going to contribute to his studio or his ego trip.




This.

I want numbers, a lay out, and a time table. 

Also, I agree with abandonist about Kickstarter. Jari can refuse to deliver the album for whatever reason and he has no obligation to make good on the investment of his fan base.


----------



## Dayn

Before this thread I had no idea a financial adviser was required before throwing away $40.


----------



## Icecold

Dayn said:


> Before this thread I had no idea a financial adviser was required before throwing away $40.



Dude, times are tough, you gotta be about that hustle.


----------



## Hemorrhage

Zalbu said:


> Why would it take that long?





TedEH said:


> The simple answer is that he has a history of making promises and not delivering. Lets not forget that Time 2 was supposed to be part of Time 1. It was one album, that was supposed to come out in 2006. What's to stop him from releasing a whole two songs, calling it Time 1.5, and demanding we pay for another new house before he does any more work?
> 
> Even if you ignore the money and the delays- the guy has made a fool of himself publicly. He's too good for CDs, he's too good for MP3, he's too good for other people's studios, he's too good to get mixing help, etc. When they build his studio, they'd better make the doors big enough for his head to get through.
> 
> If this works out and the music is actually released, I'll certainly enjoy it for what it's worth, and give him props for making good on his promises- but until then I'm certainly not going to contribute to his studio or his ego trip.



In addition to this you need to understand that many of his delays are an user error, despite that he blames something else. Being an awesome guitarist, singer and a composer does not make you a skilled audio technician. When you give a guy a studio, in which he can use as much time as he ever wants, he will never deliver. Or if he will it won't be in decent amount of time. If Jari knew what he was looking for the studio time would be enough for him to re-amp guitars. The problem is that he needs to first find and then solve every problem he has created in his mind, which most are a matter of taste. Some of the so called problems might not even be possible to solve as they only exist for him. Giving a perfectionist all the tools he "needs" might be worse for the overall product when he loses all the pressure to deliver. Jari has a habit of not delivering and messing up a crowdfunding is a great way to .... up the band and his personal reputation and make them a new great chapter in the book of unnecessary tragedies.


----------



## Petef2007

Thing is, I DO actually agree with him about the whole "cds aren't what they used to be" thing. I think hes got a good point with the fact that as technology shifts, physical format music is limiting - I know for sure that I buy way more band merchandise than I do cds. 

At this point i'm just curious to see what happens.


----------



## stevexc

Icecold said:


> Also, I agree with abandonist about Kickstarter. Jari can refuse to deliver the album for whatever reason and he has no obligation to make good on the investment of his fan base.





Kickstarter Terms of Use - emphasis mine said:


> *If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards*, they&#8217;ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:
> 
> * they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
> they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that&#8217;s communicated to backers;
> * they&#8217;re *able to demonstrate that they&#8217;ve used funds appropriately* and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
> * they&#8217;ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; *and*
> * *they offer to return any remaining funds to backers* who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.
> The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they&#8217;re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, *they may be subject to legal action by backers*.



99% of the time if you have a thought and it starts with "I agree with abandonist" there's a flaw in your logic.

There is protection for project creators backing out on Kickstarter, and there are precedents for projects that were funded but failed (Death, Inc. is one I was involved in that wound up providing refunds even though they made their goal).

abandonist's other point is also incorrect, if the goal of the Kickstarter is "create album x" then you ARE pre-paying for the album. If the target amount includes funds earmarked from the beginning for building a studio and paying themselves a living wage, as these are, then that's part of it.

Of course, I'm assuming he'll be using the Kickstarter platform itself and not some other form of crowdfunding.


----------



## Zalbu

stevexc said:


> 99% of the time if you have a thought and it starts with "I agree with abandonist" there's a flaw in your logic.
> 
> There is protection for project creators backing out on Kickstarter, and there are precedents for projects that were funded but failed (Death, Inc. is one I was involved in that wound up providing refunds even though they made their goal).
> 
> abandonist's other point is also incorrect, if the goal of the Kickstarter is "create album x" then you ARE pre-paying for the album. If the target amount includes funds earmarked from the beginning for building a studio and paying themselves a living wage, as these are, then that's part of it.
> 
> Of course, I'm assuming he'll be using the Kickstarter platform itself and not some other form of crowdfunding.


We're dealing with people who are convinced that this is all some conspiracy for Jari to take the money and run off to Bahamas or something, they don't care about this


----------



## Icecold

stevexc said:


> 99% of the time if you have a thought and it starts with "I agree with abandonist" there's a flaw in your logic.
> 
> There is protection for project creators backing out on Kickstarter, and there are precedents for projects that were funded but failed (Death, Inc. is one I was involved in that wound up providing refunds even though they made their goal).
> 
> abandonist's other point is also incorrect, if the goal of the Kickstarter is "create album x" then you ARE pre-paying for the album. If the target amount includes funds earmarked from the beginning for building a studio and paying themselves a living wage, as these are, then that's part of it.
> 
> Of course, I'm assuming he'll be using the Kickstarter platform itself and not some other form of crowdfunding.




Ok, I was unaware that Kickstarter actually had built in protection at this point. Thanks for the info.


----------



## Icecold

Zalbu said:


> We're dealing with people who are convinced that this is all some conspiracy for Jari to take the money and run off to Bahamas or something, they don't care about this




Go back and read Hemorrage's above post. That is exactly why, even as a fan of Wintersun, I'm extremely skeptical.


----------



## abandonist

Kickstarter's protection clause is laughable.


----------



## mgh

Whilst I would get into this to get these 'cd quality stems' does anyone think Jari had the slightest clue what the technical needs and cost of hosting a server which will have terabytes of data downloaded from it at a half decent speed will cost? !!


----------



## Dayn

abandonist said:


> Kickstarter's protection clause is laughable.


It's good enough. A rather straight-forward contract provided by Kickstarter used by creators and backers.

But no-one will bother incurring legal fees to recover $40. All clauses are 'laughable' if you don't enforce it. To give the protection clause any more teeth would require Kickstarter to be involved as guarantor to backers with a right of indemnity from the creators.

And that would sink Kickstarter and crush the benefits of it as a crowdfunding platform. It would effectively become a bank and most projects would be rejected due to the risk.


----------



## Zalbu

Icecold said:


> Go back and read Hemorrage's above post. That is exactly why, even as a fan of Wintersun, I'm extremely skeptical.


His post is all speculation (just like everything else in this thread), especially the "Giving a perfectionist all the tools he "needs" might be worse for the overall product when he loses all the pressure to deliver." part. Jari knows exactly why he wasn't satisfied with the production on Time I and the only way to solve it for him is to get his own studio where he can work with his own gear and his own workflow since it didn't work out for him when he did it at home or in other studios.

And when did he blame other people for his errors? He's only blamed Nuclear Blast for not giving him more funding, which again is why he's building his own studio. He's already talked about why other studios are not good enough for him multiple times over in his Facebook updates, like how he were forced to use modeling amps for the guitars since they didn't have enough of a budget to properly record amps in a third party studio. https://www.facebook.com/jari.maenpaawintersun/posts/753028768089301



fvxcvzxc said:


> Some people mentioned trying to get in touch with Devin Townsend.


People asked Devin in his Reddit AMA and he said that he don't know Jari. Besides, Devin is probably even busier than Jari is right now so I don't see how he could help.

http://www.reddit.com/r/progmetal/comments/2ghf55/hi_this_is_devin_welcome_to_my_ama/ckj4oef


----------



## hairychris

Zalbu said:


> We're dealing with people who are convinced that this is all some conspiracy for Jari to take the money and run off to Bahamas or something, they don't care about this



I don't think that most people who are skeptical are necessarily thinking that Jari will cut & run. The problems as far as I can see it are, basically, about over-reaching, both technically (if you're breaking your computer because of # of tracks you are doing something wrong) and financially.

He seems to think that music owes him a living. It doesn't. Wintersun is a relatively minor/niche act.

As I may have posted, I know people who've sold more albums than him who still hold down day jobs (which is why I find Jari's complaints really annoying). I also have a feeling that if they came out with some of the stuff about their record companies that he did about NB they'd find themselves slapped.


----------



## TedEH

Zalbu said:


> He's only blamed Nuclear Blast for not giving him more funding



He blames NB, he blames the tech, he blames the space- he blames everything and everyone but himself.



> he's building his own studio.



But he's not, is he? He's asking other people to do that for him. If he got a job and paid for the space himself, then sure. But he's demonstrated that he's clearly not willing to work for what he wants.


----------



## efx1138

What about the invetibable upkeep of the studio? Anything of the size he "needs" isn't going to be cheap to maintain.


----------



## GunpointMetal

hairychris said:


> He seems to think that music owes him a living. It doesn't. Wintersun is a relatively minor/niche act.



The whole problem in a nutshell. I get the same feeling when I see 18-19 year old kids with their first band trying to get kickstarters for $1000 to record a demo....how 'bout you get a fvkcing job?!


----------



## Icecold

Zalbu said:


> His post is all speculation (just like everything else in this thread), especially the "Giving a perfectionist all the tools he "needs" might be worse for the overall product when he loses all the pressure to deliver." part. Jari knows exactly why he wasn't satisfied with the production on Time I and the only way to solve it for him is to get his own studio where he can work with his own gear and his own workflow since it didn't work out for him when he did it at home or in other studios.
> 
> And when did he blame other people for his errors? He's only blamed Nuclear Blast for not giving him more funding, which again is why he's building his own studio. He's already talked about why other studios are not good enough for him multiple times over in his Facebook updates, like how he were forced to use modeling amps for the guitars since they didn't have enough of a budget to properly record amps in a third party studio. https://www.facebook.com/jari.maenpaawintersun/posts/753028768089301



He points out that Jari's issues with Time I were mostly due to user error. Like it's been said before, the guy want's a Ferrari but can't stand the fact that he only has the means to buy a Civic. 

But anyways,

Jari isn't satisfied with the production of Time I because someone who wasn't a Professional Engineer, Mixing, Mastering, Tracking, and or Producer had nothing to do with it. He won't say it outright, because "NO ONE UNDERSTANDZ HIS VISIONZ!" But I'll say it straight up that the reason why it sounds "Demo Quality" to him is because an amateur did it in first place. Wanna answer with "He had no budget." Really? A band signed to Nuclear Blast had no budget? I highly, highly doubt that. I'm wiling to bet all of his gear(Which he says is good enough for a studio) that he was given a budget. Let me direct you to this Podcast by Pro Engineers who have been working for decades PodOmatic | Best Free Podcasts You know what they say on that? $20 Grand is considered huge for an album these days. That is suppose to go towards paying for studio time, paying for an engineer, etc. Not "buying a crap ton of gear to try and build your own studio with barely any prior experience." That would be considered "irresponsible." 

A few questions,

When he went into a Studio, how come they didn't just use his Axe-Fx? What "3rd Party Studio" did he go to? 
Was the plan to go to a 3rd party studio from the beginning, or did he just take the money and go "I'm gunna make all my albums like this. har har har."? 
Once again, like I've said at least two other times in this thread, why was there no over-sight in this project?



> TIME II is now in a good place mixwise. I´m pretty happy with the drums, bass & the orchestrations. The whole thing is sounding so much more powerful and clear than TIME I. Really proud of what I´ve been able to achieve with these not so perfect" recordings and with the intense orchestra layers. It´s so difficult to mix stuff like this, especially with my mixing conditions. But I won´t ruin the hard work I´ve done so far by throwing a crappy guitar sound on top ruining the whole mix.



If the album isn't done why the hell is he even mixing? 

If you have tracking left to do, you shouldn't be mixing. 

Also, why didn't he just hire someone like Swano or Tangren to mix it? Does he really think that his music is "That complex" that the guy who was involved in Pan.Thy.Monium and the other Producing Septic Flesh wouldn't know how to handle it? Swano has been doing the "Home studio" thing for over 20 years. Also, you wanna know whats crazy? He made Crimson II with the POD 1, I know I've said it already but I just want to say it again because AMP MODELING IS BAD! 

Let's also back track, WHEN IS IT EVER OK TO THROW YOUR LABEL UNDER THE BUS?! Especially since Nuclear Blast has given him freedom no one would have gotten away with unless they were Axel Rose or Dr. Dre who pulled in millions for theirs. If it wasn't for NB, Wintersun would have been forgotten a long time ago and Jari would just simply be a magical hobo.

I'm amazed that You, Jari, and hardcore Wintersun fans seem to think that this is the only option, when it's obvious he is trying to take on a task by himself which he shouldn't, but won't because he can't just let the hell go of his own ego. News Flash: Giving him a Studio space is not going to magically make his music sound better. I can't wait till the day he gets a patch bay and has to figure that out. He will throw crowd funding money at it. 

So, He wants to make music "His own way"? He's been doing it now for a decade and every or so often Jari comes out of the woodwork and tells about his trials and tribulations of being an oppressed Finnish rockstar who made one great album but now he can't deliver because he has to deal with limitations and deadlines just like everyone else. 

If you wanna give him money go for it. I'm not saying you're wrong for doing so, I'm not saying you're wrong for wanting Time II or to help the guy out, I'm saying that his process sucks, and that even though you have the technology does not mean you know how to use it, and that being signed to a label does not make you a "Professional". 

Jari got himself into this situation, period. He left Ensiferum to do this, he signed to a label to do this, he refused to get outside help when it matter and still refuses to this day and is butt hurt because Nuclear Blast won't give him anymore money, to do this. You wanna contribute to his studio? Go for it, it won't fix his process. 


Finally, Time III will come out on my great grandchild's ninth birthday. It will be a glorious day, there will be roasted goose for all!


----------



## Defi

Icecold said:


> If the album isn't done why the hell is he even mixing?
> 
> If you have tracking left to do, you shouldn't be mixing.



This is really a miniscule part of your post (most of which I'm sure I agree with), but I just wanted to say I definitely disagree with this. Mixing while writing can provide invaluable insight as to how to write parts that fit, or reworking something. However not everyone has this luxury. (but surprise, Jari does!)

But again, just a small point I felt compelled to make.


----------



## abandonist

Hobos makin' Metal!


----------



## Icecold

Defi said:


> This is really a miniscule part of your post (most of which I'm sure I agree with), but I just wanted to say I definitely disagree with this. Mixing while writing can provide invaluable insight as to how to write parts that fit, or reworking something.
> 
> But again, just a small point I felt compelled to make.



It's all good, man. There is no wrong way to eat a Reeses when it comes to making music, so I understand if you do things differently. 

The reason why I say that you shouldn't be mixing is something that I took from Eyal Levi from Audio Hammer during a class where he talked about how Mixing can screw up your process if you still have tracking and/or writing left to do. The reason why he said that was because it breaks the flow because Mixing takes a different mind set than Tracking or Writing. 
There is also a concern about putting plug ins on top of tracks which takes up processing power of your CPU, but you can side step that by making stems of those tracks. 

The main thing from my ramblefest is that the most important thing is just having an actual process.


----------



## Hemorrhage

Zalbu said:


> His post is all speculation (just like everything else in this thread), especially the "Giving a perfectionist all the tools he "needs" might be worse for the overall product when he loses all the pressure to deliver." part. Jari knows exactly why he wasn't satisfied with the production on Time I and the only way to solve it for him is to get his own studio where he can work with his own gear and his own workflow since it didn't work out for him when he did it at home or in other studios.
> 
> And when did he blame other people for his errors? He's only blamed Nuclear Blast for not giving him more funding, which again is why he's building his own studio. He's already talked about why other studios are not good enough for him multiple times over in his Facebook updates, like how he were forced to use modeling amps for the guitars since they didn't have enough of a budget to properly record amps in a third party studio. https://www.facebook.com/jari.maenpaawintersun/posts/753028768089301



Well why, of course it is. This actually concerns none of us and all we know are biased "facts". All the talk here is an opinion based analysis of what he has said compared to what has actually happened this far. 

I've seen some of the spaces they (could) have at their disposal, for example the studio where they recorded the live shots of Time I. If that is not enough for them it's either user error or the sound will be out of this world and the hospitals are filled from patients with exploded balls from the power of the erection they get from the perfection of the product. In my opinion this is what they are doing: 






(Sorry if you don't get the reference.)

He has all the right to pursue his dream, like every artist, but in my personal opinion the line must be drawn at the point where a 3rd party financed studio needs to be created just for his nitpicking. His reasoning is bad. For ....s sake, no one would recognize if that guitar sound is made with Kemper / Axe or a real amp in that mix of gazillion and one orchestral tracks. He even talks only about re-amping, not recording them at the studio. +200k is too much just to make him happy. I most likely still contribute since its an easy way to get the album in a legit way but his reasons are not force majeures as he states them.

What comes to blaming others...
- Computer breaking up = his own fault for not getting backups. 
- Bad place to live, can't do any work there = What can you expect if you don't work and you live off social support? According to their official website since 2005 they have played 152 gigs. In 9 years, or approximately 3258 days they have done 152 gigs and released two albums. Count how many days he could have worked in that time if he wanted to? 
- As far as I know, Jari is not a trained sound engineer and all he knows of the process is self-learned. Paid engineer may not understand his vision like he sees it in his mind but him walking like a blind man in fog is still an user error. 

There are countless examples more which I don't right now have time to search for but I'm sure you get my point. 

I love Wintersun. I go home and I listen to it and I curl up in fetus position in my bed, I swing from side to side and cry until I look like a junkie because I can't make music like that. But I am also a man of reason and I don't tolerate stupidity, not even from my idol. 



Icecold said:


> He points out that...
> 
> ...Finally, Time III will come out on my great grandchild's ninth birthday. It will be a glorious day, there will be roasted goose for all!



Your post is too long for a whole quote but well said.


----------



## Hemorrhage

Zalbu said:


> People asked Devin in his Reddit AMA and he said that he don't know Jari. Besides, Devin is probably even busier than Jari is right now so I don't see how he could help.
> 
> Juular-of-the-blog comments on Hi, this is Devin. Welcome to my AMA.





vxcvzx said:


> Some people mentioned trying to get in touch with Devin Townsend.



Doesn't seem likely.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Anybody else see this post:
https://www.facebook.com/wintersun/posts/10154685944692402



> JARI DROPS LIVE GUITAR, BECOMES SOLELY A LIVE VOCALIST
> Hi everyone!
> It is time to start opening the curtains what is happening in the Wintersun camp regarding the future. Negotiations are going well with Nuclear Blast and we hope we can tell you soon more about "IT" and everything else in detail, but first of all we would like to start from a necessary decision concerning Jari's role for our future shows.
> 
> Here's Jari's statement:
> "After thinking about it for a long time I have made the decision to drop the live guitar, which means that I will solely become 100% live vocalist. This must be a shock to many, but this is something that I need to do. I want everyone to know that I will not stop playing guitar (ever!) or recording guitar on the Wintersun albums. On the contrary this decision will give me more time to play the guitar and learn new stuff in the "studio side of things". I can focus the playing on writing and recording new Wintersun material. Here's my reasons in a nutshell and I'm sure if you read them you will understand why this decision is actually a good thing:
> 
> - The main reason is that I've always loved to play the guitar and I've always loved to sing, but I've never truly enjoyed doing them both at the same time. It was just something that I started doing when I was young and kinda was "branded" by it early on, but actually I enjoy singing and playing the guitar much more separately.
> 
> - Some of the future Wintersun material is too complicated for me to sing and play the guitar at the same time. During the past writing processes I've always had the thought in the back of my mind that "how am I gonna do this live?" or "I can't make a verse part from this riff, because it's too difficult to play and sing live at the same time".
> 
> I don't like that, I want more freedom when I'm writing and performing. Don't get me wrong, there is probably nothing I couldn't play and sing at the same time, if I would put a lot of time to practise the parts. But I have come to the realisation that time is very limited and I already have so much unreleased Wintersun material, that I won't be even able to release it all before I die. So I need to spend the time now wisely to write, record and perform the future Wintersun albums live! Hopefully this decision will at least help to release most of the Wintersun material for you guys! Of course depending also on whether we'll get funding for the albums.
> 
> - I'm constantly writing new music, so I need to focus my brains on the new material. If I have to always keep the old material fresh and remember all of it, it "locks" and limits my creativity. There's a limit on my brains' "hard drive", I need to create some free space in there.
> 
> - I'm already "wearing too many hats" in Wintersun. I do all the music and lyric writing. I produce, record, mix and master the albums. I've been already playing and singing live for over twenty years, not just doing the rhythm guitar, but doing all the pretty difficult solos too, not to mention the variety and difficulty of the Wintersun vocals. It is essentially a two man job and that has caught up on me! Lately I've been also doing lots of photography and video work for the band too. Although we hope that in the future we can afford to hire other people to do that work, so I can focus on the music. The point is, something has got to give. There's a limit for everyone and I have reached mine.
> 
> - As some of you may know, I had a lung operation when I was in my early twenties and I lost 1/4 of my lungs. So touring has been hard for me. Dropping the guitar will make performing easier for me, which means we can do more touring and that's what we want to do.
> 
> - I've always hated that my guitar playing and singing both have been a compromise live, because they "eat each other". So this will enable me to focus 100% on my singing live.
> 
> - The Wintersun vocal parts are pretty challenging already without the guitar... mixing growling, clean, raspy and high screaming vocals, not to mention there's quite a lot of remembering to do with the lyrics as well.
> 
> - Normally I like to sing with hand held mics, because I like to move my body quite a lot when I sing. Having the guitar hanging on my body and singing to a mic with a mic stand is quite hard for me, because I can't move and I have to stand stiff in one position. This gives me back&neck problems. For me it's a bad work position. I need to be able to move freely when I sing.
> 
> So these are the main reasons for this decision, but the biggest reason is using the time more efficiently and getting the Wintersun albums out there for you guys!
> This means Teemu will take the solo guitarist role. Will he be able to to survive the 'Winter Madness' solo? We shall see! If not, Jukka will play it with the bass!
> 
> Thanks for listening! I hope you understand my decision, because it is absolutely necessary in order to get the Wintersun albums out there and to play more live shows! I'm sure you agree! "
> 
> Tomorrow we'll announce our search for the 2nd guitar player for Wintersun. A new member will help the band also with the overall work load and bring new energy to the band. The more the merrier!  So stay tuned! Especially if you want the job!
> 
> - Wintersun



I can't say I'm happy about this since Jari is an incredible live player and its crazy to see him play his solos in person. On the other hand Teemu will have zero problems playing any of his parts and its great that he will finally have a chance to show his full potential live. There are a lot of finnish guys who could fill in on second guitar now.


----------



## TedEH

I really appreciate the currently-available Wintersun material out there, but I can't take this guy seriously until he gets his act together and releases something. I'm bored of this band, cause all you ever hear are excuses for why you don't hear anything else. "I can't afford the best gear", "my computer isn't good enough", "my back hurts when playing guitar live". Most people understand their constraints and just work within them- he's got no real excuse not to do the same.

I'm not holding my breath.


----------



## hairychris

TedEH said:


> I really appreciate the currently-available Wintersun material out there, but I can't take this guy seriously until he gets his act together and releases something. I'm bored of this band, cause all you ever hear are excuses for why you don't hear anything else. "I can't afford the best gear", "my computer isn't good enough", "my back hurts when playing guitar live". Most people understand their constraints and just work within them- he's got no real excuse not to do the same.
> 
> I'm not holding my breath.



TBH If he has medical issues - and it seems so - then I'd give him a partial pass, although would be possibly disappointing for some fans.

If he'd have _simply_ stuck to that...



> I'm constantly writing new music, so I need to focus my brains on the new material. If I have to always keep the old material fresh and remember all of it, it "locks" and limits my creativity. There's a limit on my brains' "hard drive", I need to create some free space in there.



This statement is outright bollocks.


----------



## oracles

TedEH said:


> I really appreciate the currently-available Wintersun material out there, but I can't take this guy seriously until he gets his act together and releases something. I'm bored of this band, cause all you ever hear are excuses for why you don't hear anything else. "I can't afford the best gear", "my computer isn't good enough", "my back hurts when playing guitar live". Most people understand their constraints and just work within them- he's got no real excuse not to do the same.
> 
> I'm not holding my breath.



This is my biggest gripe with him. It's always the "_Poor me, no one understands how hard I have it!_ act, with an excuse for anything and everything under the sun. Nothing is ever his fault, it's someone or something that's always to blame and never his (in)action.


----------



## hairychris

Oh, and he could always, y'know, just play rhythm guitar if he wanted....


----------



## Zalbu

hairychris said:


> Oh, and he could always, y'know, just play rhythm guitar if he wanted....


But he doesn't?  He's clearly talking about all aspects of guitar playing and not just the solos.


----------



## Dyingsea

More of the same from the Wintersun camp, some random news, no new material to be seen.


----------



## Leviathus

Who wants to see Wintersun with Jari not playing guitar? The whole band is built off his shred....


----------



## hairychris

Zalbu said:


> But he doesn't?  He's clearly talking about all aspects of guitar playing and not just the solos.



I was being a bit sarcastic.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Here's an opportunity for someone. Kevin would be perfect for this and I'm sure there are hundreds of suitable Finnish guys who could do it.

It would be awesome if they got Jani Liimatainen. Even better if they released the other half of Time instead of planning future tours that might not happen. 



> LOOKING FOR A SECOND GUITARIST FOR WINTERSUN
> 
> We are looking for a 2nd guitarist for the band. From now on Jari will concentrate solely on the vocals live (please see our previous update with all the details) and Teemu will be handling most of the guitar parts previously played by Jari (solos etc.). We are looking for a tight guitarist who can also handle challenging lead guitar parts.
> 
> We're mainly looking for a Finnish player over the age of 21 and the closer you are located to Helsinki the better, but we are not ruling out the nearby countries. Besides having professional-level playing and performance skills, we&#8217;re looking for a cool and relaxed guy to add to the Wintersun family.
> 
> HOW TO APPLY:
> 
> Send us a video of your best, tightest and most in-tune playing of these parts:
> 
> - Sons Of Winter And Stars &#8220;Behold The Rain Of Stars" riff (1:19-1:39)
> - Sons Of Winter And Stars "Killer Riff" (4:30-4:58)
> - Battle Against Time intro riff (0:00-0:19)
> - Battle Against Time verse riff (2:06-2:32)
> - Starchild &#8220;Meshuggah&#8221; riff (1:08-1:18)
> - Death And The Healing sweep section (your interpretation with just one guitar) (5:10-5:31)
> - Additional sample of your best rhythm/solo playing (anything you want), maximum length 1 min
> 
> Record ONE GUITAR TRACK ONLY with NO BACKING TRACKS. Metronome is recommended (and can be heard in the video).
> 
> If you can, record the guitar with DIRECT IN or MIKED sound with no effects (bit of effects is ok for solos). Direct In or miked sound is a big plus as guitar sound recorded with a camera mic is very forgiving and we won&#8217;t be a able evaluate your playing properly.
> 
> Also, tell us a little about yourself: where you live, what&#8217;s your musical background, what you usually do daily etc. Do you have any other skills that could benefit the band?
> 
> Upload the video to youtube/vimeo/dropbox (or other similar service) and send us a private (or public) LINK to the video. Please no video files attached to the email!
> 
> Send your application to:
> [email protected]
> 
> The deadline for applications is the 1st of December 2016.
> 
> We&#8217;re looking forward to seeing your amazing guitar videos! Have fun!
> 
> - Jari, Jukka, Kai, Teemu


----------



## TedEH

Lorcan Ward said:


> It would be awesome if they got Jani Liimatainen.



100x that. If there was any way to re-spark my interest in Wintersun, it would be that.

Edit: As long as they actually release something.


----------



## Yodel

Perhaps he had to sell his guitars and gear to keep the project going or dodge eviction... another guy to split the rehearsal room rent is always nice to have when you're broke


----------



## Necropitated

Lorcan Ward said:


> Here's an opportunity for someone. Kevin would be perfect for this and I'm sure there are hundreds of suitable Finnish guys who could do it.
> 
> It would be awesome if they got Jani Liimatainen. Even better if they released the other half of Time instead of planning future tours that might not happen.



Do you mean me? I was a huge Wintersun fan in my teenage years but I'm not into that style that much anymore I guess, but I haven't checked out the new stuff. And I just sort of quit playing in (semi)-professional bands because, well, it's really hard to make a living just from bands and it's hard too get and keep a job when you're playing for those bands. 

Why don't you try out for them? You are great guitar player too, so why not give it a shot? I'll check out the required sections tonight and then I'll decide if I'll try.


----------



## Zalbu

Whelp, I'm 21 and live in Sweden, too bad I'm absolutely .... at guitar 

Seems a bit weird that they've listed 21 as the youngest age since Jari is almost 40 now, wouldn't they want somebody who's a bit closer to them in age? Teemu is 29 so I'd assume they'd get somebody around that age.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

TedEH said:


> 100x that. If there was any way to re-spark my interest in Wintersun, it would be that.
> 
> Edit: As long as they actually release something.



Unlikely there will be new material anytime soon and even more unlikely that it would involve new members but a Jari, Teemu and Jani collab would be insane. Especially with how much Jari's songwriting has matured with Cain's Offering. 



Necropitated said:


> Do you mean me? I was a huge Wintersun fan in my teenage years but I'm not into that style that much anymore I guess, but I haven't checked out the new stuff. And I just sort of quit playing in (semi)-professional bands because, well, it's really hard to make a living just from bands and it's hard too get and keep a job when you're playing for those bands.
> 
> Why don't you try out for them? You are great guitar player too, so why not give it a shot? I'll check out the required sections tonight and then I'll decide if I'll try.



They've only released 3 more actual tracks since their first album so you don't have much to catch up on. Thats a shame but I understand completely. 

I've a good full time job so I don't play in bands. I've had some very good offers but touring isn't possible with my work otherwise I'd be all over an opportunity like this.


----------



## Necropitated

Lorcan Ward said:


> Unlikely there will be new material anytime soon and even more unlikely that it would involve new members but a Jari, Teemu and Jani collab would be insane. Especially with how much Jari's songwriting has matured with Cain's Offering.
> 
> 
> 
> They've only released 3 more actual tracks since their first album so you don't have much to catch up on. Thats a shame but I understand completely.
> 
> I've a good full time job so I don't play in bands. I've had some very good offers but touring isn't possible with my work otherwise I'd be all over an opportunity like this.



Yeah I'm in the same boat as you right now. I'd rather have a real job/career right now than still trying to do music full-time. Just too much of a hassle. I'm still working that part-time job that allows me to tour, so I can still play in a serious touring band, but I haven't really gotten any offers this year and that job actually sucks.

Can I ask you what kind of offers you got, since you are a fellow youtube guitar player.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Necropitated said:


> Yeah I'm in the same boat as you right now. I'd rather have a real job/career right now than still trying to do music full-time. Just too much of a hassle. I'm still working that part-time job that allows me to tour, so I can still play in a serious touring band, but I haven't really gotten any offers this year and that job actually sucks.
> 
> Can I ask you what kind of offers you got, since you are a fellow youtube guitar player.



Mostly studio session jobs and touring. I can't say what bands but one offer was a from a well known guy who was starting to get burnt out with heavy touring and wanted someone to take over so he could have a break. This is something thats going to become a lot more common now because bands have such intense tours.


----------



## p0ke

I'm almost considering applying for this... It's a shame I don't have time to even learn those parts, even though I should be able to play those with ease... The only part out of those I'd have a hard time playing is that sweeping part. I don't really think I'm enough of a shredder though. But who knows, maybe I'll give it a go anyway, just for laughs


----------



## Jamey36

WOW I wasted an hour of my life on this thread(read the whole damned thing).I like Wintersun.Thats it.
I would bet this thread could be divided between older metalheads and younger,or should I say those of us who understand economics and those of us who do not.
You make an obligation............you honor it with the means you have available.Once you have honored said obligation and it sells well,you ask for more in advance of next obligation before making that obligation!


----------



## Zalbu

http://www.metalsucks.net/2017/01/04/wintersun-to-release-new-album-that-is-still-not-time-ii/

More Wintersun is never a bad thing, but I'm really wondering what Jari is up to if he can't record Time II but record other projects.


----------



## oracles

Zalbu said:


> More Wintersun is never a bad thing, but I'm really wondering what Jari is up to if he can't record Time II but record other projects.



Blaming everyone else but himself for why something can't get done, while refusing to take steps to do anything about it must take up a lot of his time.


----------



## Zalbu

oracles said:


> Blaming everyone else but himself for why something can't get done, while refusing to take steps to do anything about it must take up a lot of his time.


He did try to do something about it with the fundraiser but Nuclear Blast shot it down. Doing a subscription based model like Protest The Hero did would probably be the way to go for him since Jari is saying he's sitting on a ton of unreleased material but that would probably also run into problems with NB.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Thats interesting. So they are going to release a new album but its not Time Pt2 but still under the Wintersun name which is presumably still the property of Nuclear Blast.

That metalsucks article is pretty bad but it does bring up a good point:



> "it&#8217;s weird that Mäenpää had time/resources to complete other Wintersun work but for some reason did not have time/resources to complete Time II. So something is amiss."



I'm really confused on this one but more Wintersun is always good!


----------



## TedEH

Wintersun said:


> This album will be THE 3rd FULL LENGHT Wintersun album.



Is it fair to call Time I a full length album when it's only half of the originally planned full length album? 

Every time this thread gets bumped, my respect for, and faith in, this band dies a little more.


----------



## Nag

You know, this kinda reminds me of the entire Half-Life drama.

They released a direct sequel to Half-Life 2, and then a direct sequel to that sequel, but since none of these two games were called "Half-Life 3", the fans are still bitching about it 

More seriously now, I can understand it about the album. "Time II" is linked to Time I because they were meant to be one album, so same lyrical themes, musical style, tone and production... I'm also not surprised Jari has accumulated ideas that don't fit into "Time", I can also understand he has enough material for more albums (I still remember his thing with the writer's blocks from a while ago, lol) but none of that explains why suddenly recording albums isn't a problem anymore, with the whole not having a home studio and catfights with Nuclear Blast stuff.

Now if there WILL be albums released for real though, then I'll be legit impressed. For now it's just hot air to me. Time I was 3 actual songs. Time II was supposedly already in the recording/mixing stage. I'll rate this a Necrophagist/10 if there's no actual album out by the end of 2017. He announced it, he'd better deliver.


----------



## TedEH

But could you imagine the outrage that would happen if HL3 not only existed, but they claimed it was done already except for some bug fixing or console submission requirements or something like that- then claimed they couldn't release it for lack of resources, then suddenly announced HL4 was ALSO now done instead of finishing 3, and then they never release any of it and forget anything ever happened. Then in 2024, a sudden new IP comes out as if HL never existed.


----------



## Repner

Zalbu said:


> http://www.metalsucks.net/2017/01/04/wintersun-to-release-new-album-that-is-still-not-time-ii/
> 
> More Wintersun is never a bad thing, but I'm really wondering what Jari is up to if he can't record Time II but record other projects.



It was clear the Time project was way too ambitious for what he was capable of putting together. I imagine this new album will be far less layer-based. I'm guessing he'll release Time II eventually, but this is a good plan. It's like if Blind Guardian focused solely on their orchestral project without doing albums along the way. We'd be complaining about them as well.


----------



## OmegaSlayer

Wouldn't play in this band not even with the body, hands and brain of someone else.
I think this guy is quite toxic to work with.
He makes good music, but I think he has serious mental issues.


----------



## Zalbu

OmegaSlayer said:


> He makes good music, but I think he has serious mental issues.


Just because he doesn't want to release music he's not 100% satisfied with? Sure, being a metal musician and a perfectionist isn't exactly the best combination, but chill 

And also, could it just be Nuclear Blast lighting a fire under Jaris ass? I bet they're more fed up than any of us over him not releasing any new material.


----------



## TedEH

Zalbu said:


> Just because he doesn't want to release music he's not 100% satisfied with?



I don't know the guy on a person level, but I'd believe it. Lots of online/public defensive outbursts, prone to excuses, etc. -they're things that get in the way of being productive, which, even if you don't want to call it a "mental issue", he still sounds difficult to work with, to me.

You call it perfectionism, I call it insecurity. Doesn't matter what you call it, I still don't expect to hear any Wintersun material soon.


----------



## Zalbu

TedEH said:


> I don't know the guy on a person level, but I'd believe it. Lots of online/public defensive outbursts, prone to excuses, etc. -they're things that get in the way of being productive, which, even if you don't want to call it a "mental issue", he still sounds difficult to work with, to me.
> 
> You call it perfectionism, I call it insecurity. Doesn't matter what you call it, I still don't expect to hear any Wintersun material soon.


He is productive, he's sitting on a ton of written material, he just hasn't recorded it because he can't record it to the standard he wants to. Even Time I was one big compromise according to his standards.


----------



## TedEH

Zalbu said:


> Even Time I was one big compromise according to his standards.



Either that or we've put him on a pedestal because of one or two decent releases. Ability to compromise when it's appropriate is a legit skill. If he was unable to achieve the production quality he wants, then it falls on him to ask for help or hire someone to do it right. If he was a bedroom warrior kind of guy with a day job and just doing this for fun, then yeah, they're all legit excuses, but that's not the case here. He's a professional, with the contractual obligations, expectations from fans and partners, etc., that go along with that.

When you're under a contract to produce an album that someone else has funded, writing all the music in the world is not productive if you never release any of it.


----------



## Zalbu

TedEH said:


> Either that or we've put him on a pedestal because of one or two decent releases. Ability to compromise when it's appropriate is a legit skill. If he was unable to achieve the production quality he wants, then it falls on him to ask for help or hire someone to do it right. If he was a bedroom warrior kind of guy with a day job and just doing this for fun, then yeah, they're all legit excuses, but that's not the case here. He's a professional, with the contractual obligations, expectations from fans and partners, etc., that go along with that.


Every time Wintersun releases an update the arguments repeat again. How was he supposed to hire somebody to help him when Nuclear Blast didn't give him the budget he needed and didn't let him do a fundraiser? And he did compromise, did he not? And being a bedroom warrior is how he's worked for a large part of the time it has taken to record Time II since he doesn't have access to the kind of studio he needs to record it.



> When you're under a contract to produce an album that someone else has funded, writing all the music in the world is not productive if you never release any of it.



If only Nuclear Blast felt the same way.

https://www.facebook.com/jariwintersun/posts/1038306306283437


----------



## ArtDecade

This dude makes Axl look like a peach to get along with. 
New Wintersun? Don't care. Old Wintersun? It was alright, I guess.


----------



## TedEH

Zalbu said:


> Every time Wintersun releases an update the arguments repeat again.



Of course they repeat, because the situation hasn't changed.

Lets not kid ourselves, the barrier to releasing an album is incredibly low at this point. Any joe blow with a computer, a $60 copy of reaper, and some headphones can put out an album. Jari has access to resources that lots of people here would love to have- expensive guitars, funding from labels sometimes, a bunch of playing talent pooled together in the band to draw from, he's had access to good studios and gear etc. Lots of people do it with next to nothing. People on this forum do it. I've done it.

Does that mean that you can achieve the exact same product regardless of budget or time, or lack thereof? Of course not. But that's no excuse to just not release anything at all. That's exactly what I mean about compromising- "it's not perfect" is an excuse, and IMO not a good one. After the 12 years or whatever it's been, I don't care if it's perfect, I care if it gets released.


----------



## oracles

Zalbu said:


> Every time Wintersun releases an update the arguments repeat again.



Because doing it, contrary to what some might believe is NOT that difficult. There are bedroom guys releasing fantastic sounding records with less gear and funding than Wintersun, and they do it regularly without the BS and drama. 

Plini went from a guy making music in an apartment and doing self releases, and he's not long wrapped up an entire North American tour. The guy has released what, 3-5 EP's/records in the time span it's taken for Jari to invent a new excuse or blame someone else about why he can't do something?

One of my best mates has released two full lengths records, an EP and is about to release a new single, and he's done it all on a budget of zero dollars. 

If these guys can do it, if people here on this forum can do it with half the access to the same resources Wintersun has, why is it that Wintersun seems to be the lone champion of everything being too hard?

At some point, he's just got to be grateful people still care about Wintersun at all.


----------



## Zalbu

TedEH said:


> Of course they repeat, because the situation hasn't changed.
> 
> Lets not kid ourselves, the barrier to releasing an album is incredibly low at this point. Any joe blow with a computer, a $60 copy of reaper, and some headphones can put out an album. Jari has access to resources that lots of people here would love to have- expensive guitars, funding from labels sometimes, a bunch of playing talent pooled together in the band to draw from, he's had access to good studios and gear etc. Lots of people do it with next to nothing. People on this forum do it. I've done it.
> 
> Does that mean that you can achieve the exact same product regardless of budget or time, or lack thereof? Of course not. But that's no excuse to just not release anything at all. That's exactly what I mean about compromising- "it's not perfect" is an excuse, and IMO not a good one. After the 12 years or whatever it's been, I don't care if it's perfect, I care if it gets released.


And Jari agrees with you, considering the fact that the only reason for why we're having this argument, again, is because he's releasing an album. 



> "it's not perfect" is an excuse, and IMO not a good one.


Why not? He makes music for himself, not other people, so saying that it's not perfect is not an excuse. 



oracles said:


> Because doing it, contrary to what some might believe is NOT that difficult. There are bedroom guys releasing fantastic sounding records with less gear and funding than Wintersun, and they do it regularly without the BS and drama.
> 
> Plini went from a guy making music in an apartment and doing self releases, and he's not long wrapped up an entire North American tour. The guy has released what, 3-5 EP's/records in the time span it's taken for Jari to invent a new excuse or blame someone else about why he can't do something?
> 
> One of my best mates has released two full lengths records, an EP and is about to release a new single, and he's done it all on a budget of zero dollars.
> 
> If these guys can do it, if people here on this forum can do it with half the access to the same resources Wintersun has, why is it that Wintersun seems to be the lone champion of everything being too hard?
> 
> At some point, he's just got to be grateful people still care about Wintersun at all.



Because what Jari is doing is a hundred times more complex, intricate and time consuming than what somebody like Plini is doing? This is literally the reason for why this thread was created, with the post where Jari is explaining why he can't do it at home, which again leads us into a circle of arguing things that have been argued to death. If Jaris own explanation isn't good enough for you then I'd suggest you contact him in person to tell him why he's wrong.

I'm puzzled as for why this even matters. Wintersun is just a band, I have plenty of things to do while waiting for an album. If Time II won't live up to the hype that it's been building for like 10 years then tough luck, we'll all have to move on with our lives like normal.


----------



## TedEH

Zalbu said:


> Why not? He makes music for himself, not other people, so saying that it's not perfect is not an excuse.



When a label funds your followup album, the "doing it for yourself" line only goes so far. It's very likely that there was a contract of some kind that set out deliverable dates and things like that. I'm making assumptions, sure. If this was a personal project, funded with personal money, and being made on personal time, then he can do what he wants. But it's not. He took label funding, wasted the time of studios and engineers, and the other band members, etc., complained about his apartment, claimed he could only make his music if people built his ideal studio for him (guess who's gonna pay for that?).... nope. I don't buy it.



Zalbu said:


> Because what Jari is doing is a hundred times more complex, intricate and time consuming than what somebody like Plini is doing?



There's that pedestal I was talking about. We'll have to agree to disagree on the whole deal, cause I don't think of Jari in those terms.

He SAYS he's got another album. Great. When I hear it, I'll judge it on it's own right, but until then, he's released nothing but facebook rants.


----------



## Zalbu

TedEH said:


> When a label funds your followup album, the "doing it for yourself" line only goes so far. It's very likely that there was a contract of some kind that set out deliverable dates and things like that. I'm making assumptions, sure. If this was a personal project, funded with personal money, and being made on personal time, then he can do what he wants. But it's not. He took label funding, wasted the time of studios and engineers, and the other band members, etc., complained about his apartment, claimed he could only make his music if people built his ideal studio for him (guess who's gonna pay for that?).... nope. I don't buy it.


Wintersun have been signed to Nuclear Blast since 2003, I'm pretty sure they would've been sacked already if they had a problem with them only releasing one and a half hours of material in 14 years along with Jari publicly talking down on them on social media, but they haven't. 



> There's that pedestal I was talking about. We'll have to agree to disagree on the whole deal, cause I don't think of Jari in those terms


What do you mean with pedestal and thinking of him in those terms? I'm talking purely about the production side of things. Plini is intentionally going for an organic and stripped back sound while Jari is running hundreds of tracks in orchestration alone to the point where his computer can't handle all the VST plugins that are running. You can argue that he's making it unnecessarily complicated but it's objectively more time consuming and complex than what someone like Plini is doing.

And Wintersun have been posting pictures from the studio during all of last year, I have a hard time thinking that Jari doesn't have an album this time.


----------



## TedEH

Zalbu said:


> What do you mean with pedestal and thinking of him in those terms? I'm talking purely about the production side of things.



IMO he's not good at production at all. I don't think his music is that much more intricate or detailed than anything else produced in the last decade, and certainly not so much so that it should take a decade to mix. Besides that, complicated doesn't mean better. Making your projects overly complicated, to the point of not being able to finish mixing because of it, is a bad thing. Ambition is great, but that goes back to the compromise thing- if the projects are so ambitious that progress is hindered, then you need to scale back that vision. Nobody is going to be able to hear all the details of hundreds of backing orchestra tracks anyway- it's overkill. It's an unachievable ideal. Look at someone like Townsend - his stuff is very production heavy and orchestrated, but he pumps out albums like they're going out of style. I'm not willing to excuse his failure to deliver on the basis that "he's a great guitar player! He has such vision! Such ambition! So many tracks!" As someone who likes Wintersun music, and would gladly consume some new material, it's of zero value to me until something is actually delivered. You're more than welcome to disagree, or see it from another angle- but I can't personally get past all the nonsense. If the two albums come out and turn out to be mind-blowing masterpieces then maybe I'll re-evaluate my position on the matter, but until then.... 



> You can argue that he's making it unnecessarily complicated


I'm absolutely making that argument.


----------



## coreysMonster

Zalbu said:


> Plini is intentionally going for an organic and stripped back sound while Jari is running hundreds of tracks in orchestration alone to the point where his computer can't handle all the VST plugins that are running. You can argue that he's making it unnecessarily complicated but it's objectively more time consuming and complex than what someone like Plini is doing.


There comes a point when ambition moves into arrogance and self-indulgence. Running hundreds of tracks of orchestration and claiming it _has _to be that way is beyond the point of ambition.

Not to mention, Devin Townsend posted recently that his recording computer has been the same for the past 10 years and that he's finally upgraded. He uses oodles of tracks, too, and mixes them down to make them more manageable, because his old 2006 computer couldn't handle it otherwise - so that's not an excuse, either. Wanting to have everything be absolutely perfect is a fool's errand and does nothing but waste everybody's time and money.

That is to say, if you want to spend a decade writing an album, like Being did, that's absolutely fine. Take however long you want until you're satisfied, personal projects of passion are absolutely worth getting right, not matter how self-indulgent they are. If you're living on somebody else's dime, and they are counting on you to make that album to be able to pay them back, that's a different story altogether.


----------



## Lasik124

I don't know why I feel compelled to jump in this thread and bash Jari.

But here I go.

The first Wintersun album ruled. He and his band became successful and ever since then its been downhill.

Time sucked, atleast for me. It was way over produced, over thought and just meh.

On top of that, I hate how he has so many excuses. Get your sh!t together.

Your on one of the biggest labels around and have a fan base. Get focused, stop blaming your gear. Stop bashing your label. Stop overthinking your songs.

Stop giving updates and false promises.

Personally, I'm sick of it. To me, hes made a fool of himself. Especially in social media presence.
I don't keep up with him or the band anymore. It's ridiculous. Get it together.

End Rant.


----------



## MrBouleDeBowling

At this speed, a new Necrophagist album almost sounds closer.


----------



## Leviathus

Lasik124 said:


> I don't know why I feel compelled to jump in this thread and bash Jari.
> 
> But here I go.
> 
> The first Wintersun album ruled. He and his band became successful and ever since then its been downhill.
> 
> Time sucked, atleast for me. It was way over produced, over thought and just meh.
> 
> On top of that, I hate how he has so many excuses. Get your sh!t together.
> 
> Your on one of the biggest labels around and have a fan base. Get focused, stop blaming your gear. Stop bashing your label. Stop overthinking your songs.
> 
> Stop giving updates and false promises.
> 
> Personally, I'm sick of it. To me, hes made a fool of himself. Especially in social media presence.
> I don't keep up with him or the band anymore. It's ridiculous. Get it together.
> 
> End Rant.



PREACH!!


----------



## primitiverebelworld

Leviathus said:


> PREACH!!



Yeah I agree but this first album was SO GOOD!!!


----------



## oracles

Wintersun said:


> "_ABOUT TIME II
> 
> Little addendum to clear some confusion about TIME II...
> 
> TIME II was already recorded the same time as TIME I, but the mixing of TIME II came to a halt in 2014 when I realised that I could not finish the album with my resources. The album is just too big and I will not compromise and release it prematurely like I had to do with TIME I. TIME I and TIME II are huge and just insane projects. They are big budget albums that I should have not probably even started working on at that point in my career. But at that time, I had a vision for those albums and that was the only music I wanted to make. So despite the lack of funding, I wanted to challenge myself and I started working on those albums with what I had...
> 
> There were lots of technical problems and other obstacles along the way and those problems could have been solved or avoided with proper resources. Somehow I still managed to pull off at least something close to my vision for TIME I. I had to "use time" to compensate for the lack of funding and overcome the technical issues. You can literally buy money with time and buy time with money. Money = time = money. I wasn´t 100% happy with the result, but the pressure was just too high to release TIME I and get the ball rolling. That won´t happen again. TIME II will not be finished until I have the proper resources for it, but hopefully soon that's about to change!
> 
> HERE`S THE GOOD NEWS
> 
> Instead I´ve been working on... wait for it.... you know it already... a new album!!! That´s right, not a single or an EP... a full blown album with over 53 minutes of killer material and no separate intro tracks! It will be the Wintersun's 3rd full length album. And like we stated last week it´s 100% done and ready to be released! This album was something a bit "easier to make" than the TIME albums and something that was possible to do with my current resources, but as you might have guessed it turned out to be much bigger production, like it always happens with my work! Apparently I just can´t do anything "easy".  I guess it´s against my nature! My motto has actually always been "if you can´t do something properly, don´t do it at all" although I´ve had to break that motto and compromise a lot, but no more I say!
> 
> I did one song first and was really happy how the song and the production came together perfectly! Then I came up with some other killer ideas for other songs and before I knew it, I had a concept of a full album and I wanted to create it fully and here we are finally! IT IS DONE!
> 
> This stuff turned out to be just as good, if not even better in some ways! I'm 100% proud and happy about this album and the production! It's actually the first album in my lifetime that I'm 100% happy with! It is something new and different, but still totally Wintersun!
> 
> Stay tuned for more big updates soon!
> 
> Jari_



Guess he ran out of stall tactics or excuses, or someone at Nuclear Blast got him to pull his head in a little bit.


----------



## Zalbu

At this point he'd probably be better off to just not release Time II at all, or at least formally announce that he's putting it on ice until he gets his studio with a sauna or whatever he's planning now. If he's 100% satisfied with this album and says it's better than Time in some ways, what the hell does he have planned for Time II? Is he going to hire the London Symphony Orchestra and have them perform the album on Mars?


----------



## Kwert

oracles said:


> Guess he ran out of stall tactics or excuses, or someone at Nuclear Blast got him to pull his head in a little bit.




So... he basically claimed he needed an entirely new studio with a sauna etc. to MIX an album?


----------



## Vres

Sauna is part of the creative process, don't underestimate its power.


----------



## Kwert

Crescendo said:


> Sauna is part of the creative process, don't underestimate its power.





In all seriousness though, if he's saying the album was recorded at the same time as Time, and it just needed to be mixed, why in the .... did he claim to need an entirely new studio to do that?


----------



## Mathemagician

Now I'm just thinking he's going to mix his album onto pure water. The most brutal audio source.


----------



## feraledge

Mathemagician said:


> Now I'm just thinking he's going to mix his album onto pure water. The most brutal audio source.



_Purified_ water. That's what the sauna is for. He's writing the album in there, but you only fully submerge in the experience by drinking his literal sweat and tears while he is in the battleground that is Time II: Buying Time.

I loved the first album when it came out. Lost interest by the time Time I came out and probably only listened to it once. 
I can tell you this much, I got to see Kai on tour with Rotten Sound back then and he's one of the best drummers and nicest dudes ever. He would spot us dorking out to his insane talent and give this little wink and nod to us right before doing some berserker fill to blast. In hindsight, he's probably the real reason I love that first album so much.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Kwert said:


> So... he basically claimed he needed an entirely new studio with a sauna etc. to MIX an album?



Looking back at it he wanted a house paid for my his fans. He wasn't even offering much besides the "possibility" of more music in the future since he was already on a label so couldn't offer Wintersun music as a reward. The kickstarter would have been a disaster. He wanted about 7 figures so Nuclear Blast and Kickstarter could get their cut with enough left over for a house + studio.


----------



## chopeth

Last fb feed:



> WINTERSUN'S 3RD FULL LENGTH ALBUM NAME IS...
> THE FOREST SEASONS
> That's right folks, we'll leave you pondering a bit what this name means. Next week we'll release the album tracklist and everything will become very clear to you! Promise!
> So click the notifications ON in our Wintersun Page, if you don't want to miss out on the new Wintersun album! (Because of Facebook algorithm reach limit).


----------



## Mraz

The band played at MetalDays 2013 and they barely played 3.5 songs, since they had trouble with electricity due to their equipment being faulty... They were THE HEADLINER... Instead of playing 1h20min they played less than 20minutes.. I never liked them and probably never will.. Jari he is just whining all the time about a sauna and other ...... There are other finnish bands that don't need such 'rockstar' .... and just make a ....ing record like it is supposed to.. 
And to cry about missing VST and other stuff is just plain stupid


----------



## Lasik124

^ Haha yay another person who dislikes Jaris BS as much as I do.

Regardless...I'll listen to this new album. I mean hey, hope its good. Dug the first one.


----------



## Andromalia

There's something fishy in all this. The cost of building "a studio" has gone down considerably. I don't have the technical expertise to handle the making of an album all by myself (well, if you want pro results, that is) but I certainly do have the technical expertise to tell you what you need in terms of gear to do so. Assuming he has the instruments already and what he needs really is a mixing/mastering station, you can have that for 10K tops, VSTs not included (some orchestral stuff cost a lot). The price of the PC is almsot negligible compared to the rest. 

What you realistically need is: 

-A desk
-A chair
-A 2K5 tops computer screens included
-two pairs of different monitoring speakers
- a DAW with a physical interface. Doesn't have to be protools and overpriced AVID stuff. Reaper with MAckie control or a Qcon can do the work perfectly well.
-Some foam treatment for your room

-If you want to record things, add an exefx/Kemper to the cost, will be lss expensive than amps+cab+mikes+effects
That' something *I* can afford, if Jari had taken a day job he could have afforded that in 6 months.

The only real costly thing is to actually record drums. I I was in his position, I'd have bought this stuff a long time ago. It's not like it requires a brand new million dollars console... Those days are over.


----------



## hairychris

Zalbu said:


> He did try to do something about it with the fundraiser but Nuclear Blast shot it down. Doing a subscription based model like Protest The Hero did would probably be the way to go for him since Jari is saying he's sitting on a ton of unreleased material but that would probably also run into problems with NB.



NB stomped that idea because Jari owes them the Wintersun music per his contract - it's not his to distribute via a Kickstarter or any other personal route.



Zalbu said:


> Wintersun have been signed to Nuclear Blast since 2003, I'm pretty sure they would've been sacked already if they had a problem with them only releasing one and a half hours of material in 14 years along with Jari publicly talking down on them on social media, but they haven't.



Not necessarily. NB are into Wintersun for a chunk of money, and it's pretty certain that if they drop the band and sue for non-delivery they will not get any of that money back from Jari. They won't just tear up the contract and let Jari go on his way - even if they may have been willing to at some point then Jari's behaviour would have quickly killed any good will.

So... they keep Wintersun/Jari to the contract and hope that at some point an album will come out and they'll make their money back. While this is the case Wintersun (and maybe Jari, depending on the contract) won't be able to commercially release music elsewhere. The ball is firmly in Jari's court.

Keeping bands to unworkable contracts until they split is an old industry trick, but I don't think that this is happening here!


----------



## TedEH

Andromalia said:


> What you realistically need is:



I think even that much has extras/conveniences. Treated room? Yes. Physical controllers? Nope, that's just gravy. At a bare minimum, a $1k pc, some monitors and headphones, and a room to mix in should be enough. Wouldn't it be so much cheaper/easier to just rent a control room or hire someone who knows what they're doing though? Every step seems to be making it harder than it needs to be.

If there's legit an album about to come out, then hopefully it's good enough to redeem all the nonsense it took to get there.


----------



## mdeeRocks

I wasn't aware that cheese metal was such a thing.


----------



## Andromalia

TedEH said:


> I think even that much has extras/conveniences. Treated room? Yes. Physical controllers? Nope, that's just gravy. At a bare minimum, a $1k pc, some monitors and headphones, and a room to mix in should be enough. Wouldn't it be so much cheaper/easier to just rent a control room or hire someone who knows what they're doing though? Every step seems to be making it harder than it needs to be.
> 
> If there's legit an album about to come out, then hopefully it's good enough to redeem all the nonsense it took to get there.



Physical controllers aren't just gravy, they do speed up the work considerably. One of the main issues you have with doing everything with a mouse is that you can only click on one thing at a time meaning a lot of back and forth clicking whwile you want to adjust two parameters, say compression and level on a track. With a controller you just set it where you want by adjusting in real time. I have done mixes with physical consoles since the 90es and although a computer allows you to get much more for cheaper, you pay for it in workflow hassle. One channel strip per track may seem like a luxury but that's how some very successful records were done in a few days. Time being money, this is a very useful investment if you do anyting other than just dally at home for a hobby.


----------



## TedEH

Andromalia said:


> Time being money



Given their track record so far, they've got nothing *but* time. I'm sure there's a better joke in there somewhere, but I can't think of it this early.


----------



## primitiverebelworld

I want to speed up. What do physical controllers look like? MIDI keyboard with assigned keys or this .... my mates use in AutoCad at work?


----------



## feraledge

Following Andy from Mors Principium Est is just good for perspective. All this studio nonsense! You need less gear to capture your guitars and you can spend forever writing and keeping DI tracks. Write whatever symphonic stuff, create drum tracks, then do what everyone else in the industry seems to do: get the drums recorded legit and then just have all the DI tracks reamped and mixed in a legit full time studio. 
To think you need to record in the studio anymore is quickly becoming a vestige of the past. That's coming from someone who genuinely enjoys recording in the studio. But writing in the studio? Get over it. Make your own studio space, no one is doing this full scale studio thing to write everything all the time. 
Getting funds for it? Fine. Whatever. But all these other projects get tons of funding because they ask and people give. They aren't groveling and seeking pity. The crowd funding thing works, you just have to have something to show for it other than excuses. Maybe the new album is it, but that story posted above about gear errors ending a headlining set? Bush league.


----------



## Andromalia

primitiverebelworld said:


> I want to speed up. What do physical controllers look like? MIDI keyboard with assigned keys or this .... my mates use in AutoCad at work?



No, they're basically emulating console controls, here's an exemple, you have many brands and price ranges: 

https://www.thomann.de/fr/presonus_faderport_8.htm

@Feraledge: I'm pretty sure getting a dude to do your axe fx/kemper patches would even be cheaper than using studio reamping services, because the patches stay and I don't think you can make a difference after production. Or you buy a torpedo and just do it yourself, the most difficult thing about the torpedo is finding the cab impulse that suits your tastes.
"Real" drum recording is still done but I think it's more because programming drums _properly _is time consuming (ie, doing all the velocities by hand). Drums in modern metal records sound anything but natural even with real drums anyway.
That said I sure wish I had access to Metallica's "home studio"


----------



## couverdure

I remember seeing a thread from last year about Jari getting his Ibanez LACS RGD, and I have some questions regarding it:

1) Do LACS guitars get shipped outside of Los Angeles? I don't think the band has gone into the US for years.

2) Aren't they made for artists' touring purposes? It doesn't make sense if Wintersun hasn't played a show in almost forever and the guitar barely gets shown off to everyone.

3) What's the point of getting one if Jari isn't going to play the guitar live anymore? I wonder how that will affect his Ibanez endorsement considering that he has used guitars from them a lot and already had a custom before it.


----------



## ArtHam

couverdure said:


> I remember seeing a thread from last year about Jari getting his Ibanez LACS RGD, and I have some questions regarding it:
> 
> 1) Do LACS guitars get shipped outside of Los Angeles? I don't think the band has gone into the US for years.
> 
> 2) Aren't they made for artists' touring purposes? It doesn't make sense if Wintersun hasn't played a show in almost forever and the guitar barely gets shown off to everyone.
> 
> 3) What's the point of getting one if Jari isn't going to play the guitar live anymore? I wonder how that will affect his Ibanez endorsement considering that he has used guitars from them a lot and already had a custom before it.



Wintersun have played the US 2015.
LACS is from what I understand strictly for bigger artists on their roster. I'm sure they ship guitars, but I think artists mostly just pick up the guitar when they're close.
There are tons of examples for bands that hardly ever tour but still get guitars, like Necrophagist. Wintersun has a large online presence and rabid almost to the point of insane fanboys that will buy anything Jari plays on. Even if they never tour the fact that he is in a picture with a certain guitar means fans want it.


----------



## Zalbu

couverdure said:


> I remember seeing a thread from last year about Jari getting his Ibanez LACS RGD, and I have some questions regarding it:
> 
> 1) Do LACS guitars get shipped outside of Los Angeles? I don't think the band has gone into the US for years.
> 
> 2) Aren't they made for artists' touring purposes? It doesn't make sense if Wintersun hasn't played a show in almost forever and the guitar barely gets shown off to everyone.
> 
> 3) What's the point of getting one if Jari isn't going to play the guitar live anymore? I wonder how that will affect his Ibanez endorsement considering that he has used guitars from them a lot and already had a custom before it.


He still plays guitar and writes music, I guess they could just tell him to do some guitar clinics if they really need him to market the guitars.


----------



## Leviathus

http://www.metalunderground.com/news/details.cfm?newsid=130919

^here goes the tracklist.


----------



## Asrial

> Yes, you guessed it! This album is our version of Vivaldi's The Four Seasons, but it hasn't got anything to do with Vivaldi musically or with classical music. It is 100% original and solid Wintersun material!



So it's Vivaldi's four seasons, except it's not...


----------



## drmosh

Asrial said:


> So it's Vivaldi's four seasons, except it's not...



sounds like a reboot in the film world


----------



## Mathemagician

Maybe he means that he's structured the album as 4 movements each with its own theme/ideas?


----------



## p0ke

Mathemagician said:


> Maybe he means that he's structured the album as 4 movements each with its own theme/ideas?



Well, that's kinda what the track list says  I hope it'll be more like the first album, but I'm sure it'll be awesome either way.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

> THERE WILL BE A WINTERSUN CROWDFUNDING, STARTING March 1st
> During last autumn we had long and productive negotiations with our record label Nuclear Blast and we finalized it in November 2016. We came to a good solution, a win-win deal that will benefit everyone - Wintersun, Nuclear Blast and especially the fans! This means that we will do the crowdfunding and it will include our NEW album THE FOREST SEASONS!
> 
> The purpose of this crowdfunding is to build the WINTERSUN HEADQUARTERS studio. As some of you may know this has been in the plans for a long time. It is our long time goal and dream. Building the studio is absolutely essential in order to finish TIME II and produce our future albums as fast as possible and with the best production. All the money we raise will go directly to Wintersun 100%, which we will use for building the Wintersun Headquarters.
> 
> This will be the biggest crowdfunding you've ever seen in the metal scene! It will be a different kind of crowdfunding than usually. We are not going to offer dozens of different items from guitar picks to used socks for a thousand bucks. We're gonna cut all the crap and only going to offer one very valuable perk! That's right! It will be a massive Wintersun Crowdfunding Package called the FOREST PACKAGE and it will have lots of great Wintersun content including our new album THE FOREST SEASONS. You will be blown away!
> 
> The FOREST PACKAGE is huge and otherwise it would be very expensive, but we are going to offer it with a very affordable price in our crowdfunding. So you guys will get great value for your money and enjoy the new album like it should be experienced, with the absolutely BEST quality! The best thing is that all of the content is 100% done, so you don't have to wait for many months. It will be basically a pre-order for our new album.
> 
> This way you get the NEW Wintersun album the easiest way, with the best quality and with the best price and you'll help us get to the next level, so we can produce albums for YOU guys faster and with the best production! So this is a WIN-WIN for everyone!
> 
> The crowdfunding will take place on INDIEGOGO between March 1st - 31st. It will last only ONE MONTH, so you guys need to be prepared! Get those credit cards and PayPal accounts ready!
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> - Jari, Jukka, Kai, Teemu



I really don't know what to make of this. The album is 100% done and under their contract with Nuclear Blast but they are using it as a pre-order incentive to fund an indiegogo campaign to build their studio. Announcing a crowd funding over a month before it starts(and constantly teasing it over the last year) is one of the biggest mistakes you can make with one since its loses momentum the second you announce it.


----------



## Simic

If I understand this correctly you will either pay for the forest package (for the price they name, which is probably upwards of 50&#8364 or nothing at all?

If this is the case, this seems weird to me as there are probably a lot of guys (like myself) who would gladly contribute like 20&#8364; (for the sake of the first album which was really good  ) but wouldn't really pay anything more (50, 100, 200e...)...


----------



## MicrobeSS

We can't finish Time II... however we made a third album! preorder it for a higher price and help us build a studio so we can finish Time II, Until we need more instruments or Jari can no longer sing, some other issue comes up.


----------



## OmegaSlayer

This guy is scum of the worse kind.
People has made great music even in poor condiotions, this guy is a disgrace and aspoiled whiner.
Building a studio won't help him in the least, he'll keep whining wanting more.
He doesn't need a studio but a mental asylum


----------



## TedEH

> The purpose of this crowdfunding is to build the WINTERSUN HEADQUARTERS studio.



Sweet jebus, no. 

Why would I pay into a crowdfunding campaign just to get an album that's already done? The whole point of crowdfunding is to try to help something get made, not just to sell crap already-made stuff so you can buy whatever frivolous nonsense you want.

At the very least, this could/should have been a campaign just to fund Time II, and having Time II be the reward - and you can add the new already-done album to some rewards to make it a better deal. But there's no mention of Time II being a reward.... so... still no guarantee that it'll ever be done, even if they build their dream studio.

This band hurts my brain.


----------



## TheShreddinHand

Heck no, won't get a dime of mine.


----------



## ncfiala

This guy is ridiculous. He's in an obscure metal band but wants to live like he's in Metallica.


----------



## iamaom

> The purpose of this crowdfunding is to build the WINTERSUN HEADQUARTERS studio


I'm not familiar with finnish realty but why can't they just rent out a pre-existing building and use it for recording purposes? Get some place in a little far off strip mall or some unused barn, sound proof it, add a bed and a minifridge, move your computers and gear there, get a nice big security lock and call it a day. I don't think Jaari quite understands how much time, money, and maintenance owning an entire building is going to be. I loved the first wintersun album but there's no way I'm going to fund his bizarre fantasies for a decent metal album once a decade.


----------



## Asrial

I want the guy to succeed, ofc, since I like the first two records and I want to hear more.

But this is dumb. Jesus, release some good music, THEN we can ....ing talk funding for a studio.


----------



## Leviathus

Is this for real?

F$#*ing ridiculous..... 

I really hope no one gives any money to this band who has had 1 good album 12 years ago, and hundreds of excuses since. This really seems like trolling at this point...


----------



## DLG

this guy is delusional


----------



## BearOnGuitar

I heard some of Jaris new material and the intensity of it had me shivering in excitement. I'm hoping whatever I heard will be part of the new release, it was a whole different level of Wintersun. I'd probably build his studio using nothing but my bare hands if I had to, just to hear these songs again.


----------



## OmegaSlayer

Parasite

1 - an organism that lives on or in an organism of another species, known as the host, from the body of which it obtains nutriment.

2 - a person who receives support, advantage, or the like, from another or others without giving any useful or proper return, as one who lives on the hospitality of others.

3 - (in ancient Greece) a person who received free meals in return for amusing or impudent conversation, flattering remarks, etc.

4 - Jari Maenpaa


----------



## prlgmnr

BearOnGuitar said:


> I heard some of Jaris new material and the intensity of it had me shivering in excitement. I'm hoping whatever I heard will be part of the new release, it was a whole different level of Wintersun. I'd probably build his studio using nothing but my bare hands if I had to, just to hear these songs again.



Don't say that he'll have you on the next plane over.


----------



## MicrobeSS

prlgmnr said:


> Don't say that he'll have you on the next plane over.



They'd have to crowdfund the plane ticket


----------



## hairychris

Well that's a development. 



Lorcan Ward said:


> I really don't know what to make of this. The album is 100% done and under their contract with Nuclear Blast but they are using it as a pre-order incentive to fund an indiegogo campaign to build their studio. Announcing a crowd funding over a month before it starts(and constantly teasing it over the last year) is one of the biggest mistakes you can make with one since its loses momentum the second you announce it.



I imagine that NB are taking a cut of each pre-order in lieu of sales, but wow.

TBH I would think that NB have got tired of his bitching and have worked out a way to at least make some money back.

I really hope that this falls badly on it's arse.


----------



## Andromalia

Well, if it fails, it fails, I don't really get the hate. It's not like he's forcing you to donate. guy maye be delusional or whatever, but the angry reactions to this are pretty strange.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

So Nuclear Blast are getting a cut since its a band on their label with a contract then they will also have to factor in indie-go-go's fee which is 5%(plus paypal fees) and Finnish taxes aswell. So add all that together with the cost for the studio/house and you will need a LOT of money for this to be a successful campaign. Most likely it will be flexible funding which only creates more problems if the goal isn't reached. 

I'll buy the new album the second its up on iTunes but not when its locked behind a crowdfunding paywall to fund Jari's dream of a studio/house.


----------



## chopeth

Andromalia said:


> Well, if it fails, it fails, I don't really get the hate. It's not like he's forcing you to donate. guy maye be delusional or whatever, but the angry reactions to this are pretty strange.



Though I don't share it, I understand the hate, and you'd probably do too if you checked their fb, he is the biggest troll ever in metal music.


----------



## feraledge

Does Finland not have reality TV? Because Wintersun is Coming... is like made for TV level drama. 
I'm not invested to think negatively of Jari, I just don't think positively of him and have enough distance to think this whole thing is hilarious. I don't even think it's a scam, he's just manipulative in asking for what he wants: to be a millionaire off of Wintersun and have some lush studio where he can live out his rock star fantasies. I'm sure worse "artists" have gotten there and zero impact on me either way. 
But I'll certainly watch! 

The folks behind the Anvil or Some Kind of Monster documentaries need to get in on the ground floor here. The in person implosions have to be just awesome entertainment.


----------



## feraledge

So, to clarify, is this entire new album supposed to be a teaser for the potential of an unfinished "masterpiece"? The more you think about this the funnier it gets. Or is he just saying this new album is whatever, so give us money for the real deal? Because if this album is good, then there's no reason for funding their fantasy studio. And if it's not good, why would anyone think the sole reason for it was the lack of a proper studio.
If it's not great, don't release it. If it is great, keep doing what you're doing.


----------



## GunpointMetal

I get the impression he honestly believes he's a gift to us mere mortals for his musical prowess and we all just owe him a cushy existence or we'll never be graced with his most majestic output.....

But, seriously, Time was good, well-orchestrated, but definitely not wholly-original or in any way forward thinking...he's taking so ....ing long with everything I don't even care anymore though, and probably won't be bothered to check out any future releases because of his off-putting approach to this whole thing.


----------



## feraledge

It's starting to add up. He's obsessed with Time and he seems to know that this album _will save the world_, but he needs us to believe in him. It's almost as if he was waiting for someone to come along and give him that last thing he needs. 
Unfortunately, in the wait, George Carlin died. 
So after noticing the parallels in possible story lines, I propose we start a crowd sourcing campaign to purchase and mail this to Jari, hoping it alone gives him the inspiration he needs to write his Wyld Stallions, I mean, Wintersun album that will cure all that ails the world right now and averts the impending World War III...


----------



## feilong29

Just to play devil's advocate but, didn't Keith Merrow and Jeff Loomis do a crowdfunding dealio for their Conquering Dystopia album? Surely the massive amount of money the collected didn't just go to producing the album. I'm sure they got a couple pieces of gear and whatever else with the money left over. I don't know how much production costs, but, at least Jari is being up front about his intentions. We were ALL over the Merrow/Loomis gig. Not trying to argue, but maybe someone could shed some like on how it is different...


----------



## ncfiala

feilong29 said:


> Just to play devil's advocate but, didn't Keith Merrow and Jeff Loomis do a crowdfunding dealio for their Conquering Dystopia album? Surely the massive amount of money the collected didn't just go to producing the album. I'm sure they got a couple pieces of gear and whatever else with the money left over. I don't know how much production costs, but, at least Jari is being up front about his intentions. We were ALL over the Merrow/Loomis gig. Not trying to argue, but maybe someone could shed some like on how it is different...



I think there is a big difference. Loomis has demonstrated forever that he can and will put out good music in a timely fashion. He also doesn't go on the internet and make an ass out of himself and put off his fans. The same can't be said of this guy.


----------



## feraledge

feilong29 said:


> Just to play devil's advocate but, didn't Keith Merrow and Jeff Loomis do a crowdfunding dealio for their Conquering Dystopia album? Surely the massive amount of money the collected didn't just go to producing the album. I'm sure they got a couple pieces of gear and whatever else with the money left over. I don't know how much production costs, but, at least Jari is being up front about his intentions. We were ALL over the Merrow/Loomis gig. Not trying to argue, but maybe someone could shed some like on how it is different...



Merrow is a youtube guitarist who turned into a metal ambassador to the guitar industry and yielded amazing results. I've watched his videos numerous times and my favorite stock pickups are Nazgul and Black Winters which he seems to have had a hand in both.
Given that, Merrow makes a living off of what he's done there, as have others. They get money from Patreon, ads, and then do crowd funding around specific projects. No one is contesting that. 
What they don't do is not deliver on their projects in a timely and satisfying manner. They aren't coming up with excuses and they're putting their requests as, "this is what we could do _more_ of" rather than make it seem like something is keeping them from doing awesome things. 
Realistically, it comes down to two things: 
1) Deliver great content, you will get support
2) If you're asking for money and support, ask for money and support, don't justify it by coming up with complex renditions of reality that may or may not be true

Nothing Jari is asking for is unusual, particularly in this era, but it's just the lack of dignity with which he's presenting it that makes it so laughable. As I've said, I don't care either way, but it's funny to me. However, neither the joke nor the punchline is that he's asking fans for money. It's the way he is.


----------



## feilong29

Ahhhh ok ok, thanks for y'alls input!


----------



## Lorcan Ward

^thats a completely different kind of indiegogo though, they had no label and only needed a small amount to get the album recorded and all the perks made and shipped. The idea of a album indiegogo is you are preordering the album and merch. We play the part of the label giving the band the capital needed to do record and everything else. Same as protest the Heros, they were dropped from their label and had no means to record the album they wanted. Each the video on their campaign page, it explains everything.

This however is a signed band who have an album ready to go but are locking it behind a crowdfunding campaign so they can build a studio to produce more albums which will be owned by their label(who will also be in charge of the production and distribution of merch). It's ridiculous.


----------



## feilong29

Lorcan Ward said:


> ^thats a completely different kind of indiegogo though, they had no label and only needed a small amount to get the album recorded and all the perks made and shipped. The idea of a album indiegogo is you are preordering the album and merch. We play the part of the label giving the band the capital needed to do record and everything else. Same as protest the Heros, they were dropped from their label and had no means to record the album they wanted. Each the video on their campaign page, it explains everything.
> 
> This however is a signed band who have an album ready to go but are locking it behind a crowdfunding campaign so they can build a studio to produce more albums which will be owned by their label(who will also be in charge of the production and distribution of merch). It's ridiculous.



Gotcha! I didn't digest all the details of what he was planning to do, just the gist of it. The man has dreams, haha


----------



## works0fheart

Also the fact that Wintersun already has a label that they're signed under. Normally in that scenario your label will help you get your album recorded. With a label there shouldn't be a need for crowdfunding, which is the original issue at hand. This guy feels like he should have his own studio built for him to record there instead of wherever the label offers to send them to. 

Keith Merrow and a majority of other people who have done the crowdfunding thing I would assume go that route because they don't have a label or don't want to go through one. Jari is just being a piece of .... at this point.

He's now trying to say that the crowd-funding is just people ordering the album and that there shouldn't be anything wrong with that as people shouldn't feel entitled to listen to music for free. The thing is though, if that's the case, and you already have a label, you're still selling your album regardless, so what he's trying to do with this whole crowdfunding thing is beyond douchey. I don't think he realizes that in the year 2017 that if people want to listen to your album for free, it's going to happen no matter what.

This isn't even the first time I've heard of them pulling some ....ed up stuff like this. Years ago when they toured the states with Arsis and Fleshgod Apocalypse they wanted the support bands (the two that were aformentioned) to pay some ridiculous sum of money for touring costs, which caused Arsis to launch a crowdfunding campaign to even be able to tower with them. If I remember right James was giving haircuts and guitar lessons to people before gigs and all sorts of other .... to even try to afford to be on the tour, which they couldn't back out of because it was already booked. I spoke to Brandon about it after it happened and he said that this was all Wintersun's idea and their point of view was basically like "we're taking you out on the road, you're paying us"

This was my first time seeing both Arsis and Wintersun live and I'd been a huge fan of both of them since they're initial releases, but at this point I'll never give Jari a dime of my money again.


----------



## hairychris

Andromalia said:


> Well, if it fails, it fails, I don't really get the hate. It's not like he's forcing you to donate. guy maye be delusional or whatever, but the angry reactions to this are pretty strange.



No hate here, just conscious that music (in and of itself) doesn't owe anyone anything... plus Jari is being an entitled cock and disrespecting fans.


----------



## hairychris

works0fheart said:


> This isn't even the first time I've heard of them pulling some ....ed up stuff like this. Years ago when they toured the states with Arsis and Fleshgod Apocalypse they wanted the support bands (the two that were aformentioned) to pay some ridiculous sum of money for touring costs, which caused Arsis to launch a crowdfunding campaign to even be able to tower with them. If I remember right James was giving haircuts and guitar lessons to people before gigs and all sorts of other .... to even try to afford to be on the tour, which they couldn't back out of because it was already booked. I spoke to Brandon about it after it happened and he said that this was all Wintersun's idea and their point of view was basically like "we're taking you out on the road, you're paying us"
> 
> This was my first time seeing both Arsis and Wintersun live and I'd been a huge fan of both of them since they're initial releases, but at this point I'll never give Jari a dime of my money again.



Didn't know that. Pay to play (as I'm assuming that Arsis were already covering their own transport & living costs) is the worst. Usually this is a scumbag record label move, not a scumbag headliner move though.

Not cool in the slightest.


----------



## Asrial

Jari should, instead of wanting to build himself a studio from the get go, just work together with an already established studio and put out some goddamn music.

You don't need a studio to write or record nessecarily. You need a studio for proper audio engineering.
And wow, yeah, that's kind of scummy if Jari pulled that stunt.


----------



## TedEH

Asrial said:


> You need a studio for proper audio engineering.



And even that is becoming less and less the case, since home recording is such a big thing now. I said it before- the barrier to entry for music production is incredibly low now. Great stuff gets produced all the time with next-to-nothing budgets.

I'm simultaneously working on two albums and an indie game - with zero budget for either of them, and while working a full time job at the same time - there's absolutely no reason that someone with no job (and label support!) can't produce something with what's available to them. All this "build me a studio" nonsense has smashed any amount of respect I had for the band. I can't think of them as professionals anymore. Even if the two albums come out and turn out to be masterpieces, they've done too much damage to their reputation for a couple of good albums to excuse it.

I really WANT to like this band, and I probably will enjoy the albums when they eventually arrive, but there's no way I'm participating in this crowdfunding nonsense.


----------



## jerm

Asrial said:


> Jari should, instead of wanting to build himself a studio from the get go, just work together with an already established studio and put out some goddamn music.
> 
> You don't need a studio to write or record nessecarily. You need a studio for proper audio engineering.
> And wow, yeah, that's kind of scummy if Jari pulled that stunt.



Teemu works in Sonic Pump Studios. http://www.sonicpumpstudios.com/

He must be able to get some kind of discount for recording there?


----------



## TedEH

jerm said:


> Teemu works in Sonic Pump Studios.



That just boggles the mind. Isn't that where they did those live-off-the-floor videos a while back from Time I? I thought those videos were really good.


----------



## jerm

TedEH said:


> That just boggles the mind. Isn't that where they did those live-off-the-floor videos a while back from Time I? I thought those videos were really good.


As did I


----------



## Lorcan Ward

First album was mixed in Sonic Pump and the drums, bass and rhythm guitars for Time 1 were recorded there too.

For anyone wondering where there is so much negativity its because this has been going on for over 10 years now. I can remember still being in school and talking to my friends about these update posts. 
https://www.wintermadness.net


----------



## MrTorture

Have they said how much money they need?


----------



## Zalbu

They recorded the new album at Sonic Pump too, and Time II, but some some reason Jari can't mix it properly unless he has access to a NASA-tier supercomputer. I'm still a bit baffled about the fundraising too, are they only going to have one perk? If they do then they're going to lose out on a lot of cash from people who would pay for the lower tier perks.

But hey, if it means they'll put out albums at Bucketheads rate then I'm all for it


----------



## chopeth

I don't understand the one perk think either. I wouldn't go for that but I'd help with a perk consisting in a reasonable price three albums one.


----------



## works0fheart

Zalbu said:


> But hey, if it means they'll put out albums at Bucketheads rate then I'm all for it



I'd like this to be the case but I can't be that naive (no offense). More excuses will come flowing forward later as to why their new material is taking so long. It's pretty telling of someone's work ethic when they can only manage to release an album and a half in 13 years.


----------



## Axayacatl

*BREAKING NEWS ALERT*

If you buy Jaari's album, it comes bundled with the new Necrophagist. 

You heard it first here. Now go crowdfund! 

Kidding aside, this thread makes me cringe. Partly because I love Wintersun's music, but also because I'm exactly like Jaari just without the talent. 

So I'm taking all this pointed criticism kind of personally. 

Most of it seems fair though....


----------



## Mraz

For ....'s sake.. Septicflesh have symphonic arrangements in their music and they still are able to make records every 2-3 years and consistenly tour.. 
Wintersun and Jari are just narcissitic, self important idiotic assholes.. .... those guys for milking their fans...
From the comments:
'Should I give guitar lessons like Teemu or drum lessons like.. Then there will no new wintersun records, you want that?' 
Srsly!?!?!? Dude should get a job and work and write on the weekenda, maybe he will appreviate the fans then!!!


----------



## hairychris

Mraz said:


> For ....'s sake.. Septicflesh have symphonic arrangements in their music and they still are able to make records every 2-3 years and consistenly tour..
> Wintersun and Jari are just narcissitic, self important idiotic assholes.. .... those guys for milking their fans...
> From the comments:
> *'Should I give guitar lessons like Teemu or drum lessons like.. Then there will no new wintersun records, you want that?' *
> Srsly!?!?!? Dude should get a job and work and write on the weekenda, maybe he will appreviate the fans then!!!



*Headdesk*

Um, how about yes - I'm sure he isn't working on his album 24/7, and pretty much every musician that I know has to work to support themselves as well, even those in quite well-known touring acts.


----------



## TedEH

Axayacatl said:


> I'm exactly like Jaari just without the talent.
> 
> So I'm taking all this pointed criticism kind of personally.



I doubt that you're similar to Jari in the ways he's being criticized here. Lots of people take huge amounts of time to get their creative works off the ground, and blame it on anything from lack of time, to the gear involved, etc.- we've all been there. I've got an album/project that I've been sitting on for a year and only just finally got around to drum tracking. And I have other projects that have taken much longer than they realistically needed to take. And that's fine. It's not my job to do those things. I'm not making promises, or using anyone's money. It fine for people to do this most of the time.

BUT

It's basically Jari's job- it's what he does for his living, since he won't do anything else to support himself. He has label support, which means money, equipment, etc., but also means the time constraint and expected deliverables that go along with it. And he's demanding that people BUY HIM A BUILDING despite his terrible reputation for not delivering anything.

It's perfectly reasonable to take as long as you want on personal projects. It's not reasonable to take label money and just string everyone along for a decade, then make more demands.


----------



## mdeeRocks

Mraz said:


> For ....'s sake.. Septicflesh have symphonic arrangements in their music and they still are able to make records every 2-3 years and consistenly tour..
> Wintersun and Jari are just narcissitic, self important idiotic assholes.. .... those guys for milking their fans...
> From the comments:
> 'Should I give guitar lessons like Teemu or drum lessons like.. Then there will no new wintersun records, you want that?'
> Srsly!?!?!? Dude should get a job and work and write on the weekenda, maybe he will appreviate the fans then!!!



Paul Gilbert gives guitar lessons, even while on tour, still does Mr. Big and solo albums pretty much every year. But, well, he isn't symphonic.


----------



## Mraz

Jari himself said he doesn't work - giving lessons etc sinc ehe cannot make music then.. 

You can say what you want, he is a pretencious asshole milking fans for money.. 13 years and 1.5 records... That is sad... Look other bands that also use symphonics, Cradle Of Filth, Septicflesh etc..


----------



## downburst82

MrTorture said:


> Have they said how much money they need?


----------



## feraledge

downburst82 said:


>



I wonder what that will be when adjusted for inflation when this same discussion is going on five years from now. 
Just for "time capsule" sake of the longevity of this issue with Wintersun, there might be folks who weren't following it in 2009 when this gem popped up:


----------



## Lorcan Ward

MrTorture said:


> Have they said how much money they need?



This is largely a guess but once you factors in Indiegogo's cut(5%), paypal/bank fees(2-5%), Nuclear Blast's cut and Finnish taxes and how much you would need to buy property and build a studio/house, they would need to make a similar amount to what Avenged Sevenfold sold in the first week of their latest album.


----------



## Mraz

feraledge said:


> I wonder what that will be when adjusted for inflation when this same discussion is going on five years from now.
> Just for "time capsule" sake of the longevity of this issue with Wintersun, there might be folks who weren't following it in 2009 when this gem popped up:




Video not working


----------



## hairychris

TedEH said:


> It's basically Jari's job- *it's what he does for his living*, since he won't do anything else to support himself.



Um, it's not a job at this point, more like an expensive hobby while unemployed. 

If he wants to be a professional musician in these times then he needs to do all of that other stuff unless he's selling millions of records or touring constantly. The one _relatively_ successful full-time musician that I know has, in the last 10 years, released 5 studio, 3 compilations and averaged over 200 shows per year. He's the single hardest-working person that I've ever met and still isn't wealthy, so I have very little time (arf) for Jari's complaining!


----------



## feraledge

Mraz said:


> Video not working



Yeah, I can't figure this one out apparently. Here's the link:
https://youtu.be/GikgicSeEA4


----------



## Razerjack

Mraz said:


> For ....'s sake.. Septicflesh have symphonic arrangements in their music and they still are able to make records every 2-3 years and consistenly tour..
> Wintersun and Jari are just narcissitic, self important idiotic assholes.. .... those guys for milking their fans...
> From the comments:
> 'Should I give guitar lessons like Teemu or drum lessons like.. Then there will no new wintersun records, you want that?'
> Srsly!?!?!? Dude should get a job and work and write on the weekenda, maybe he will appreviate the fans then!!!



God... I assumed giving  lessons was his main vocation for the past decade or so since it's not like his band was releasing much material or touring frequently... No idea how he makes a living


----------



## Gio18

Man I really fell off with wintersun.


----------



## TedEH

I keep seeing all this Wintersun "hype" stuff pop up on facebook, weird photoshoped images, a video that says something vague about "time 1.5", and announcements that they won't put albums on Spotify. Still no music though.

I think the Spotify comment just solidifies in my mind that they're doing all of this to squeeze money out of their fans rather than for the sake of the music.

I don't think they understand that playing with "hype" can be very dangerous - if there's anything to learn from the whole No Mans Sky deal, it's that the more you try to hype something up, the bigger the backlash will be if you don't actually deliver what was promised.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

I'm guessing Time 1.5 is a remixed and remastered version of Time pt 1. 

The campaign starts this day next week so we will find out then. I think they've grossly overestimated what they will achieve this way and the FB stuff is not helping.


----------



## Gio18

TedEH said:


> I keep seeing all this Wintersun "hype" stuff pop up on facebook, weird photoshoped images, a video that says something vague about "time 1.5", and announcements that they won't put albums on Spotify. Still no music though.
> 
> I think the Spotify comment just solidifies in my mind that they're doing all of this to squeeze money out of their fans rather than for the sake of the music.
> 
> I don't think they understand that playing with "hype" can be very dangerous - if there's anything to learn from the whole No Mans Sky deal, it's that the more you try to hype something up, the bigger the backlash will be if you don't actually deliver what was promised.




Did you see that stupid "time 1.5" video on youtube where it was nothing but static? it probably took jari 2 years to make that


----------



## TedEH

^ Aaaaaaaamazing


----------



## mcsalty

Gio18 said:


> Did you see that stupid "time 1.5" video on youtube where it was nothing but static? it probably took jari 2 years to make that



Well obviously, he had to animate each individual pixel himself to ensure that the end product was 100% in line with his exact vision for the project


----------



## downburst82

Ya I think this is really going to fall flat for them. They are averaging 1000ish likes for their recent posts on the album/funding campaign (a few with more, highest was around 3000) out or 370 000 followers. Usually going on "likes" can be misleading but when your launching a crowd funding campaign your facebook presence and post participation is important. A couple thousand people seem invested enough to bother liking their posts, how many of those will be invested enough to actually pay $50 or whatever they are asking for their 1 tier reward system?

I know not all posts reach the full fanbase due to how facebook does things now but I believe some of their posts were paid/sponsored posts so they would have reached a significant % of that 370 000. Even with the obvious big promotion push when the campaign launches I still think they are vastly overestimating how interested people still are (at least more than $10 interested)


----------



## prlgmnr

Gio18 said:


> Did you see that stupid "time 1.5" video on youtube where it was nothing but static?



It was just static because we haven't built him his studio to make any music in, in fairness he has been trying to tell us.


----------



## Fathand

mdeeRocks said:


> Paul Gilbert gives guitar lessons, even while on tour, still does Mr. Big and solo albums pretty much every year. But, well, he isn't symphonic.



He's also lost some (a lot?) of his hearing, but still doesn't make any excuses. Puts out music like it's not an issue. I guess that's the difference between putting the music first, not the technical details (out of necessity, but anyways)?

IMHO: If Jari is as prolific writer as he says, he should have put out 3-5 "acceptable" (technically) albums first and then fulfill his grandiose plans about "Time". Then he'd get more leeway and positive hype from the paying public. Most likely a bigger budget from NB, too. 

And this as a complete outsider (besides that I'm also a Finn), I have no interest in Wintersun musically. I do enjoy the occational internet drama, though.


----------



## Gio18

prlgmnr said:


> It was just static because we haven't built him his studio to make any music in, in fairness he has been trying to tell us.



He could have put a riff or two in there. We all know that the static thing was a super troll move...come on dude


----------



## dax21

Likes on facebook don't mean diddly squat. 
Protest the Hero average far fewer likes than Wintersun and we all know how their crowdfundings went in the past.

Hardcore Wintersun fans are delusional as all hell, they will get a snippet of a riff or something in a teaser form and will denounce all the doubts they ever possibly had.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Protest the Hero's indiegogo worked for many reasons, mainly because it came out of nowhere. The best way to get a crowd funding campaign to blow up in the first week is for it to be a surprise, every single news site and social media page will want to be the first to talk about it, essentially they do all the initial work for promoting it. Hyping it up for 3-4 years? Terrible idea! The more you tease a crowd funding the less momentum it has. Its a recipe for failure. 

Not to mention PTH had no label, no recorded album ready, a fixed goal with a detailed breakdown of expenses and made a heartfelt video appealing to fans:


----------



## TedEH

I think facebook engagement numbers are probably important leading up to a crowdfunding campaign, the success of which hinges on driving that traffic to the right place.

The problem in this case is that a lot of the current engagement is very negative right now soooo... who knows how this will go.


----------



## feraledge

More like Beautiful Dearth, amiright?


----------



## TheShreddinHand

I refuse to believe Jari has actually written any new music until I actually hear clips (or full songs) of the songs on this supposed album.


----------



## Jarmake

"A NEW ALBUM, TO BE OR NOT TO BE

Our crowdfunding which will start this Wednesday will be an ALL OR NOTHING campaign. This means that the campaign has a FIXED GOAL meaning we have to get a certain amount of people to support us by ordering our FOREST PACKAGE including the NEW ALBUM. Otherwise Indiegogo will refund everyone's money back. The reason for this is that we can not accept less money because then we wouldn't be able to go forward with our plans. This way it is transparent and fair for everyone.

BUT our fixed goal is very realistic and easily reachable. We can do this already on the first day if we compare our past album sales. ABOUT 1% OF OUR FANS NEED TO PRE-ORDER AND THE ALBUM RELEASE WILL BE SECURED!

So we are asking for you guys to help us during the campaign also by sharing all our Facebook updates, this way we can reach more people!

Thanks!

- Jari, Jukka, Teemu, Kai"

So either they get the money for their own studio and people get to hear this new forest seasons-album, or the crowdfunding isn't successful and nobody is going to hear it.

Not going to fund this farce with my hard earned money.


----------



## Leviathus

Lmao, this just gets funnier every time i visit this thread.

"If you guys don't send us enough money, then no album"

I kinda hope they don't raise enough to see how this pans out, what kind of album release is this?

Also, they say the album's finished, so you recorded it and you had the means to record it right? Can't ya just go back to that studio next time, and maybe just release the album and tour to make money?


----------



## Fathand

Jarmake said:


> "A NEW ALBUM, TO BE OR NOT TO BE
> 
> Our crowdfunding which will start this Wednesday will be an ALL OR NOTHING campaign. This means that the campaign has a FIXED GOAL meaning we have to get a certain amount of people to support us by ordering our FOREST PACKAGE including the NEW ALBUM. Otherwise Indiegogo will refund everyone's money back. The reason for this is that we can not accept less money because then we wouldn't be able to go forward with our plans. This way it is transparent and fair for everyone.
> 
> BUT our fixed goal is very realistic and easily reachable. We can do this already on the first day if we compare our past album sales. ABOUT 1% OF OUR FANS NEED TO PRE-ORDER AND THE ALBUM RELEASE WILL BE SECURED!
> 
> So we are asking for you guys to help us during the campaign also by sharing all our Facebook updates, this way we can reach more people!
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> - Jari, Jukka, Teemu, Kai"
> 
> So either they get the money for their own studio and people get to hear this new forest seasons-album, or the crowdfunding isn't successful and nobody is going to hear it.
> 
> Not going to fund this farce with my hard earned money.



"If you extort them, they will come".


----------



## Metropolis

For some people this thing has to be twisted from a rail or something... No one is blackmailing or treathening anybody to send them money. It's just how things are right now, and it's sad to see some jealous individuals want this crowdfunding to fail.

If one percent of Facebook fans buy the Forest Package, it will be around 3700 people funding. Price of package being, let's say 50 euros and then total funding goal being 185 000e. It can be more or less, but around these numbers everything seems more than realistic.


----------



## TedEH

Metropolis said:


> some jealous individuals want this crowdfunding to fail.



I don't think it's a jealousy thing at all. Wintersun's business model right now is very questionable, and while I'm not on the "I hope they fail" side of things, I also don't want to see a precedent set that you can get away with stringing people along with excuses and unreasonable demands like this.

I mean, if they succeed and build their own studio from this - there's still the risk that they'll find a new excuse and still not release anything - but also, how long before another band decides that they won't produce anything without their own personal studio too?


----------



## WishIwasfinnish

I don't see why people are so skeptical of them...

Everyone has different preferences, they want their own studio to make music in and they think that their fans can provide the resources to do so. Any real fan of theirs wants them to succeed in their own way.

There's always a risk with these things, but I see no reason to think they're trying to deceive us. Sure they might fail in the future, there's always that risk, but what is anyone putting on the line by supporting them? Maybe 50-75 bucks at most?


----------



## TedEH

WishIwasfinnish said:


> Sure they might fail in the future, there's always that risk, but what is anyone putting on the line by supporting them? Maybe 50-75 bucks at most?



How reasonable is it to give $75 away and potentially get nothing back? 

The trick, in my mind, is that the band is putting that risk on their audience instead of bearing that risk themselves like most any other business does when they sell a product. In a normal situation, if I buy an album, there's no risk of me not actually receiving that album. They're asking for people to be investors instead of just plain customers- and yes, investment means risk, but this band has demonstrated that they don't reliably deliver, which means it's a relatively high risk.

I think it's unreasonable to have to consider every little album or game or whatever small consumable thing I want to buy as an investment. It was novel at first, and it's fine as a method of supporting someone you have faith in, but as time goes on, I am getting tired of buying into incomplete products and kickstarters that never happen and "early access" things that don't progress into a polished product and preorders, and subpar products that are reduced to crowdfunding cause they're not good enough to make it the traditional way and all this other nonsense. It feels like everyone thinks they're entitled to their consumers money regardless of whether they plan on giving them anything back, and regardless of whether their product is any good.

I don't want them to fail, but I have zero faith in them as a potential investor, since that what they're asking us to be.


----------



## Gio18

I like wintersun I really do but after reading some facebook posts I have learned that the album will not be physical...and that hurts my soul


----------



## Mathemagician

They aren't going to fans asking for money for studio time as a broke band would without a label. They are demanding that fans pay for and provide them with their own studio. Just because "they wrote a good album one time". And they are threatening those very fans with the prospect of the getting any new music if this falls through. 

Dude is a giant dick. He has let his ego get him to a place where he feels he's above working to make a living and should just be allowed to play in a studio all day. Nooooope.

Edit: If I'm funding your studio I want an equity stake in 100% of anything recorded there however fractional that may be.


----------



## Unleash The Fury

Mathemagician said:


> They aren't going to fans asking for money for studio time as a broke band would without a label. They are demanding that fans pay for and provide them with their own studio. Just because "they wrote a good album one time". And they are threatening those very fans with the prospect of the getting any new music if this falls through.
> 
> Dude is a giant dick. He has let his ego get him to a place where he feels he's above working to make a living and should just be allowed to play in a studio all day. Nooooope.
> 
> Edit: If I'm funding your studio I want an equity stake in 100% of anything recorded there however fractional that may be.



Agreed. Just make the damn album and release it already! At the very LEAST, release one song (right now!) and let us hear it. Quite frankly i dont care about stupid packages just sell me the cd!


----------



## feraledge

The first album came out in 2004. It's been hype since and Time I finally coming out in 2012. Considering that this whining has gone on pretty much that whole time and little to show for it (aside from an album that is coming out but apparently won't indicate their actual potential), why would anyone suddenly believe Jari is going to deliver. 
Also, it's taking money for an album that may or may not be written, but can't be trusted in the hands of another studio, to be recorded in a studio that has not yet been built, handled by a person who ostensibly doesn't have access to studio gear to learn or use... I mean, even if this gets funded, what's the best case scenario, another couple of years before the greatest album never written may or may not come out? 
I don't think anyone has been opposed to the ideas here, just this ridiculously belabored approach. Also, Gojira built their own studio and then recorded a pretty good album on it, definitely not their best in my opinion.


----------



## WishIwasfinnish

TedEH said:


> How reasonable is it to give $75 away and potentially get nothing back?
> 
> The trick, in my mind, is that the band is putting that risk on their audience instead of bearing that risk themselves like most any other business does when they sell a product. In a normal situation, if I buy an album, there's no risk of me not actually receiving that album. They're asking for people to be investors instead of just plain customers- and yes, investment means risk, but this band has demonstrated that they don't reliably deliver, which means it's a relatively high risk.
> 
> I think it's unreasonable to have to consider every little album or game or whatever small consumable thing I want to buy as an investment. It was novel at first, and it's fine as a method of supporting someone you have faith in, but as time goes on, I am getting tired of buying into incomplete products and kickstarters that never happen and "early access" things that don't progress into a polished product and preorders, and subpar products that are reduced to crowdfunding cause they're not good enough to make it the traditional way and all this other nonsense. It feels like everyone thinks they're entitled to their consumers money regardless of whether they plan on giving them anything back, and regardless of whether their product is any good.
> 
> I don't want them to fail, but I have zero faith in them as a potential investor, since that what they're asking us to be.



They've announced a release date and have the album complete, and the way they've set up the crowdfunding is that if their goal isn't reached you get your money back. So I see it as very little risk for the moment. Whether or not they actually deliver on their promise to record more albums in better timeframes in the future is much more uncertain, but IMO people have been way too hard on them for doing something out of the norm.


----------



## musicaldeath

So are you saying if they don't reach their goal and you get your money back, then they won't release the album... that is already done?

I have not read their crowdfunding platform at all, it just seems like an entirely ridiculous situation to me. They were able to create an album (because it's done, right?) conventionally, but they want to use it to try and yank more money out of their fan base so that they can build a studio or whatever. Then they want to write/finish/whatever another album that they (have started/may or may not already be done?)are then going to charge you for (or crowdfund again so Jari can write albums on the moon or something cause his vision does not allow him to write in Earth's gravity). I really enjoyed the first Wintersun album, and Time I was pretty good, but this is ridiculous. To each their own, but he isn't getting a dime of my money.


----------



## feraledge

WishIwasfinnish said:


> They've announced a release date and have the album complete, and the way they've set up the crowdfunding is that if their goal isn't reached you get your money back. So I see it as very little risk for the moment. Whether or not they actually deliver on their promise to record more albums in better timeframes in the future is much more uncertain, but IMO people have been way too hard on them for doing something out of the norm.



This is where it's odd. They're using an album that is apparently going to be released to leverage an album that doesn't exist yet. It's very strange, especially with "all or nothing", though they said that if this doesn't work they'll have to go back to the drawing board. 
I guess I'm not sure if anyone has gone too far beyond the drawing board yet. 
This is also the worst way to hype the album that actually is supposed to be coming out.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/wintersun-crowdfunding--3#/

Crowdfunding is up early for some reason. The Wintersun fanboy side of me wants to throw my money at it but on the other hand its wrong on so many levels that a major metal label signed band with backed tours and an album ready to go is using crowd funding.

Edit: Just read the whole campaign page. They plan to do 3 crowdfunding campaigns?


----------



## TedEH

So this confirms that the only way to get the already-completed album is to participate in their crowdfunding? No spotify or itunes or something? No way to buy the albums the traditional way?

Reads to me like they're holding their finished product hostage to squeeze as much money out of their fanbase as possible. I'm not normally the kind of person who goes along with those kinds of conspiracy-theory-esque accusations, but I don't see any more favorable way to read the situation.


----------



## wannabguitarist

I would totally throw some money at the campaign if there was an option to just buy a CD at a reasonable f*cking price. Jesus


----------



## Mathemagician

I loved that first '04 album. Middle of my COB/Norther fanboy phase. I'm not being coerced into paying ..... I'll give him $15 for the album if he ever deems mere mortals worthy of being allowed to purchase it. I don't reward manipulative business practices with my money.


----------



## feraledge

Holy hell. 
Reading the campaign stuff, I'm so much more confused. 
So Nuclear Blast is releasing this album in "July 2017" but no confirmed release date? BUT they're holding the album hostage by saying they won't release it if they don't make 150K euros in "pre-sales" on a digital only version? Is that even a decision that they can make? 
And the ultimate goal is 750K euros. 
So if you want the album, pay more for the electronic version? Or spend more and get exclusive super hot JPGs from Jari. 
How long before Nuclear Blast just shuts this down? I'm pretty damn positive that digital bootlegs that cost MORE aren't kosher for any recording contract.


----------



## WishIwasfinnish

musicaldeath said:


> So are you saying if they don't reach their goal and you get your money back, then they won't release the album... that is already done?
> 
> I have not read their crowdfunding platform at all, it just seems like an entirely ridiculous situation to me. They were able to create an album (because it's done, right?) conventionally, but they want to use it to try and yank more money out of their fan base so that they can build a studio or whatever. Then they want to write/finish/whatever another album that they (have started/may or may not already be done?)are then going to charge you for (or crowdfund again so Jari can write albums on the moon or something cause his vision does not allow him to write in Earth's gravity). I really enjoyed the first Wintersun album, and Time I was pretty good, but this is ridiculous. To each their own, but he isn't getting a dime of my money.



It's really odd but it's how they want to do things and I hope it works out. I already donated 50 euro for the forest package because to me it's ....ing sick. They are releasing a ton of extra stuff in the hopes that they can achieve something beyond the norm. 

They recorded this album already yes, but by doing this crowdfunding Jari is hoping he can raise enough money to build a studio and make future album how he wants to make them. I think that's honorable. If it doesn't work it doesn't work. I'm sure the album will come out either way - they'll probably release it through nuclear blast no matter what, they'll just make much less money and have less freedom in the future.

It's a ....ing tough business, guys. If you put your blood and sweat into a music career, you should do whatever you have to do to accomplish your dreams. If the modern industry was like it was in the 80s, Wintersun might have made enough money from the first album to live comfortably and do whatever they wanted. Who knows. But I certainly am not going to judge a man whose music I love for trying to do something above and beyond the norm. But I also won't criticize those who don't believe in what he's doing, because it's highly unusual and has a lot of potential downfalls.


----------



## WishIwasfinnish

Oh and as of like 10 minutes ago they uploaded the video to go along with the crowdfunding with samples from the new album. Check dis ....!!!!


----------



## Fathand

I'm not hoping they fail, I'm just curiously watching how this will end. And if they succeed, how many years before the promised material appears. 

They're aiming high anyways, why not go for the full monty!


----------



## Lasik124

My IQ drops every time this band gives any kind of update.


----------



## Unleash The Fury

Holy fu&k though those songs do sound awesome


----------



## Metropolis

Ultimate goal of 750,000 is freaking insane. I couldn't even imagine that... but rant about this will only rise and get bigger whatever the reason of it is individually...

But the first round of crowdfunding is really tempting.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Jari's ambitious anyway! Does planning two more subsequent campaigns with different &#8364;50 packages mean there will be another two albums?

New material sounds awesome.


----------



## dax21

Two hours later and they already got 30% funded.
Insane.


----------



## Samark

Music sounds brilliant, looking forward to hearing this if all works out.


----------



## Metropolis

Just listening to that crowdfunding video like a radio... and the samples from The Forest Seasons


----------



## Asrial

Okay, regardless of past struggles, those snippets does sound cool. And glad to see they aren't totally going bat.... crazy with the campaigns; they've kind of broken down what they aim for, how to get it, and what is a sensible middle road. 

Too bad tho, as I don't preorder.


----------



## Winspear

I've never listened to Wintersun before but I think I'm going to buy this package, sounds good


----------



## Jarmake

So much ....ery has been done by Mäenpää that I'm not going to spend my hard earned money in this. They'll reach the goal for sure, as they're around 50% by now and it's only been up for a day... Good for the fans that haven't lost interest im the last 13 years or so...


----------



## Dayn

Saw the update at work, pledged instantly. Sounds great to me.


----------



## Jonathan20022

I'll buy this when it's available as a CD if it ever is. These guys come off so strangely to me and it's cringe inducing everytime I read/hear about their antics.

The music is fantastic, but they should fund their own studio with their own money by working a job and saving for it. That over ambitious goal centered around a studio for ONE band to record their content, or the promise of future content 

Their facebook is clamoring with fanboys who shut down even the most polite skeptics, so they'll more than likely fund this no problem. How they plan on spinning an additional 600k Euro is beyond me.

EDIT:
Wow that video is so ....ing dumb, they truly feel like they're entitled to being given this studio space to do what they're supposed to be doing by contract for Nuclear Blast. I have no idea how NB is even remotely okay with this.


----------



## Winspear

To be fair the price seems reasonable even forgetting that you are donating to their future cause. 50$ seems about right for deluxe version of a new record + rereleas of older materials, though I agree physical copies woul dbe nice


----------



## Gio18

Winspear said:


> To be fair the price seems reasonable even forgetting that you are donating to their future cause. 50$ seems about right for deluxe version of a new record + rereleas of older materials, though I agree physical copies woul dbe nice



Yeah my tablet cannot play mp3s or wav files or whatever....this whole digital thing sucks for someone like me. I really want a cd and stuff with all those bells and whistles.


----------



## Samark

&#8364;105Keuros so far! Well done Wintersun!


----------



## DLG

they announced that they're playing brutal assault this year


----------



## Petef2007

So on the first day of the crowdfunding, with an ENTIRE MONTH left to go, the damn thing has hit about 80% of it's goal. 

Just absolutely absurd. 

I can see Jari's head inflating from here in England.


----------



## couverdure

I always feel worried about the band every time I visit this thread because I've started listening to Wintersun recently and I love their self-titled album and Time I, their only albums so far. Their discography is barely an hour and a half long despite being around for 13 years, so longtime fans had to deal with the excruciatingly long wait and Jari's nonsense.

That said, I just want their goals to meet already so we can have new material out sooner than later and maybe they could tour around the world again.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

I'd love to see the email where Jari wanted a 3/4 of a million advance from Nuclear Blast 



Winspear said:


> To be fair the price seems reasonable even forgetting that you are donating to their future cause. 50$ seems about right for deluxe version of a new record + rereleas of older materials, though I agree physical copies woul dbe nice



What you get is really good, especially if you don't own any Wintersun albums, even then there is still a lot for long time fans. As much as I don't agree with the campaign I'm still a Wintersun fanboy so I'm going to order since the release is nearly secured. Finally some new Wintersun after 5 years. I wonder if its an older album he wrote or new material he wrote especially for the limitations of his setup.


----------



## TedEH

WishIwasfinnish said:


> It's a ....ing tough business, guys. If you put your blood and sweat into a music career, you should do whatever you have to do to accomplish your dreams. If the modern industry was like it was in the 80s, Wintersun might have made enough money from the first album to live comfortably and do whatever they wanted.



I disagree entirely. The 'biz doesn't have the money it used to have, but it also has extremely low barriers to entry now. Bedroom shredders with $0 budgets are putting out great albums now. Jari had label backing, an existing fanbase, and who knows what kind of budget he's been given over the decade or so, and yet he delivered so little, when people with much less to leverage continue to put out good stuff. It's not a good excuse, IMO. The whole "it has to be the thing I make my living off of" thing is nonsense. Having to get a job like a normal person is just part of the deal now.


----------



## TedEH

The thing that makes this whole situation so brutal is that the music ultimately is good. Good enough to justify all the d*cking around? I can't decide. But I do want to listen to it eventually.

I almost laughed out loud when, in the video, they threatened to take a long time to release anything if they don't reach their crowdfunding goal.


----------



## Petef2007

Thing that gets me is that the rough mix of Fields of Snow sounded fine to me.

I'll give them this....they're making waves. Who knows what could happen if they actually achieve the 750k goal. 

I bet it would give a lot of other bands a reason to watch things very, very closely if it does work.


----------



## Dyingsea

Man that is like a used car salesman pitch. Jari is all over it and the other guys seem like they were poked and prodded to get in front of the camera. I don't know the music sounds great but I almost feel bad for the rest of the band having to go along with this.


----------



## WishIwasfinnish

TedEH said:


> I disagree entirely. The 'biz doesn't have the money it used to have, but it also has extremely low barriers to entry now. Bedroom shredders with $0 budgets are putting out great albums now. Jari had label backing, an existing fanbase, and who knows what kind of budget he's been given over the decade or so, and yet he delivered so little, when people with much less to leverage continue to put out good stuff. It's not a good excuse, IMO. The whole "it has to be the thing I make my living off of" thing is nonsense. Having to get a job like a normal person is just part of the deal now.



Maybe that's the norm, like I said, but it's not like Jari is breaking laws by doing what he is doing, which is how people are treating this situation. The modern industry requires creative thinking to move ahead of the status quo, which at this point is what you said - getting a second job even if you're relatively successful in music. I don't wish that on anyone and encourage stuff like this. If it works it will set all kinds of new precedents.

Also, no one knows what kind of budget he was given by nuclear blast. Maybe it was terrible. Maybe it was enough. The point is we don't know. Let's not judge people for what we don't know.


----------



## TedEH

WishIwasfinnish said:


> If it works it will set all kinds of new precedents.



That's honestly the part I don't like about this whole deal. Some of what Wintersun is doing right now is great, to a point (crowdfunding isn't bad in itself), but a lot of it is counter to what I feel is the point of music. They're treating it like a business more than an art, and if they succeed, I would worry that more people will do this- things like holding completed works hostage in order to demand money, or refusing to work unless you get your own personal studio, or refusing to put stuff on Spotify because you'll never get rich that way. Their success will legitimize their excuses.

I know that everyone will value things differently, and everyone needs to make a living somehow, but I hate the whole music-as-just-a-product-to-be-sold thing. Maybe it's sort of growing pains as the biz breaks down and we transition to different models for this sort of thing, but I hope these kinds of things don't catch on. Music has made a lot of progress in availability, lowered barriers to entry, etc.- and I'd hate to see that go away, or take several steps back because people choose to value the money over the expression.


----------



## WishIwasfinnish

TedEH said:


> That's honestly the part I don't like about this whole deal. Some of what Wintersun is doing right now is great, to a point (crowdfunding isn't bad in itself), but a lot of it is counter to what I feel is the point of music. They're treating it like a business more than an art, and if they succeed, I would worry that more people will do this- things like holding completed works hostage in order to demand money, or refusing to work unless you get your own personal studio, or refusing to put stuff on Spotify because you'll never get rich that way. Their success will legitimize their excuses.
> 
> I know that everyone will value things differently, and everyone needs to make a living somehow, but I hate the whole music-as-just-a-product-to-be-sold thing. Maybe it's sort of growing pains as the biz breaks down and we transition to different models for this sort of thing, but I hope these kinds of things don't catch on. Music has made a lot of progress in availability, lowered barriers to entry, etc.- and I'd hate to see that go away, or take several steps back because people choose to value the money over the expression.



I agree with the sentiment of all that - that it should still be about the music, and that people shouldn't feel entitled to make a living off crowdfunding, and holding music hostage.

However I don't think that's what they're doing. There's nothing they've said that explicitly says they won't release the album if they don't meet their goals. Most likely it would just be delayed. At some point they'd be forced to do so otherwise they'd be missing out on whatever potential money could be made through a traditional release process.

I think there's a lot of fear out there because of all this change. However, I also don't think this model can work for most people. First of all you need amazing music and a passionate fanbase for this to work, which Wintersun clearly has. It's only one in a thousand bands that could even begin to plan something like this. And if it does work, it will definitely encourage people to try and create value that has disappeared from the music industry by coming up with creative packages to sell like Wintersun has. I don't want people to simply sit back and accept the damage that the music industry has suffered.

So while I understand your concerns, I don't think they're very reasonable in this circumstance.


----------



## oc616

You'll have to call me ignorant here, but I'm genuinely curious as to what value fans are putting on this group. The only thing I heard from Wintersun was "Beyond the Dark Sun" on a Metal Hammer compilation years ago, and I'm surprised to see that band be...revered(?) enough to warrant this type of attention/privilege. They've done 2 other albums before this, right?

I could understand a band like Periphery trying this and succeeding due to current trends, or a truly classic act like Slayer due to nostalgia. I've got to ask in this instance, what's the appeal? Over the slew of other melodeath bands like At The Gates, what's the appeal of crowdfunding this particular act? I'm not trying to throw shade, if anything I'm wondering if this is some glorious meme that got out of control, "the band that didn't release their album".

Of course, a certain Necrophagist exists for that title so...


----------



## WishIwasfinnish

oc616 said:


> You'll have to call me ignorant here, but I'm genuinely curious as to what value fans are putting on this group. The only thing I heard from Wintersun was "Beyond the Dark Sun" on a Metal Hammer compilation years ago, and I'm surprised to see that band be...revered(?) enough to warrant this type of attention/privilege. They've done 2 other albums before this, right?
> 
> I could understand a band like Periphery trying this and succeeding due to current trends, or a truly classic act like Slayer due to nostalgia. I've got to ask in this instance, what's the appeal? Over the slew of other melodeath bands like At The Gates, what's the appeal of crowdfunding this particular act? I'm not trying to throw shade, if anything I'm wondering if this is some glorious meme that got out of control, "the band that didn't release their album".
> 
> Of course, a certain Necrophagist exists for that title so...



I bet Necrophagist would have a similar response actually....

For me it's just their first album and Jari Maenpaa. I love that man's playing and singing, and he has a special place in my heart. And I guess it's that way for a lot of people. It's hard to explain, but I can't not love Wintersun. Their music connected with me when I was in my early days of metal and it sounds like nothing else I've ever heard.


----------



## TedEH

I guess another way to put it is that a large part of the reason the biz is in it's current state is that the consumer side of things has basically said "this isn't worth the cost you're asking anymore". We want to listen to music, and we want it to be available and easy and cheap and convenient. We want to have the option to support the artists we really like, but not be cut off from music that we aren't throwing money at. We've decided on a valuation system for these things, in which small subscription fees for access to lots of stuff is reasonable, and paying $50 to every band we like for their premium packages as an only option isn't reasonable. Of course when I say "we" I just mean "me" and people who think the way I do.

But the biz, and some bands are responding by pushing back - pushing back against availability, against choice, against the casual listener who doesn't want the premium package and just wants to listen to the album once and never think about it again. The fact that their crowdfunding is working shows that they have an audience that shares their values, but they've cut out anyone who doesn't share that view. I'm not going to buy the album. I would listen if it was on Spotify, because that's what it's worth to me, but not more than that.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think what they're doing with the crowdfunding is "bad" or "evil", but it's counter to my views, and discourages me from supporting them the way they want to be supported. They're well within their right to control access to their product as they see fit, and to make a profit from it- but I'm also well within my right to say "screw that" and go listen to stuff people put on Spotify instead because they're more concerned with their passion projects being heard than making money.


----------



## WishIwasfinnish

TedEH said:


> I guess another way to put it is that a large part of the reason the biz is in it's current state is that the consumer side of things has basically said "this isn't worth the cost you're asking anymore". We want to listen to music, and we want it to be available and easy and cheap and convenient. We want to have the option to support the artists we really like, but not be cut off from music that we aren't throwing money at. We've decided on a valuation system for these things, in which small subscription fees for access to lots of stuff is reasonable, and paying $50 to every band we like for their premium packages as an only option isn't reasonable. Of course when I say "we" I just mean "me" and people who think the way I do.
> 
> But the biz, and some bands are responding by pushing back - pushing back against availability, against choice, against the casual listener who doesn't want the premium package and just wants to listen to the album once and never think about it again. The fact that their crowdfunding is working shows that they have an audience that shares their values, but they've cut out anyone who doesn't share that view. I'm not going to buy the album. I would listen if it was on Spotify, because that's what it's worth to me, but not more than that.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I don't think what they're doing with the crowdfunding is "bad" or "evil", but it's counter to my views, and discourages me from supporting them the way they want to be supported. They're well within their right to control access to their product as they see fit, and to make a profit from it- but I'm also well within my right to say "screw that" and go listen to stuff people put on Spotify instead because they're more concerned with their passion projects being heard than making money.



You definitely are and I don't blame you at all for doing so. I wouldn't buy this package for most bands, but I happen to be a huge Wintersun fan so I am. Lucky for you the album will be released on schedule due to this successful campaign and will undoubtedly be on spotify when the album comes out, which is also where I'm mostly going to listen to it. And lucky for them there's apparently a lot of people like me out there who will support this thing. At the end of the day, like you said, it's about what people are willing to pay for given all the options available. This is just another option. No need to support it if you don't agree with it. In the end, action by passionate supporters dictates the future. Which is how the NRA prevents federal gun control laws from being passed despite only having 5 million members in a country of 350 million. Luckily for us all, music doesn't kill people


----------



## hairychris

feraledge said:


> Holy hell.
> Reading the campaign stuff, I'm so much more confused.
> So Nuclear Blast is releasing this album in "July 2017" but no confirmed release date? BUT they're holding the album hostage by saying they won't release it if they don't make 150K euros in "pre-sales" on a digital only version? Is that even a decision that they can make?
> And the ultimate goal is 750K euros.
> So if you want the album, pay more for the electronic version? Or spend more and get exclusive super hot JPGs from Jari.
> How long before Nuclear Blast just shuts this down? I'm pretty damn positive that digital bootlegs that cost MORE aren't kosher for any recording contract.



Aye, I read through the page.



Totally rinsing their fanbase. Right now I hope that the whole edifice fails completely and collapses on it's arse. 

I despair for humanity sometimes.


----------



## TheHandOfStone

I like Wintersun a lot; I've been a fan since high school and finally saw them live in 2013. Yet the only thing I'd actually want out of the expensive Kickstarter bundle is the master files, and I'm pretty sure those aren't worth 50 euros to me. I can wait to hear the new album (which should be good) and I thought their first two sounded fine. So it's looking like a pass for me.


----------



## Gio18

hairychris said:


> Aye, I read through the page.
> 
> 
> 
> Totally rinsing their fanbase. Right now I hope that the whole edifice fails completely and collapses on it's arse.
> 
> I despair for humanity sometimes.



The way it looks right now in 1 day. I don't think thats going to happen


----------



## TedEH

WishIwasfinnish said:


> will undoubtedly be on spotify when the album comes out



I don't remember where I saw it, but one of their official communications (facebook probably?) said they were not going to be putting anything on Spotify.


----------



## WishIwasfinnish

TedEH said:


> I don't remember where I saw it, but one of their official communications (facebook probably?) said they were not going to be putting anything on Spotify.



You're right. This was a post from February 21st:

"WINTERSUN'S NEW ALBUM WON'T BE ON SPOTIFY
The Forest Seasons album won't be on Spotify or any other streaming services. At least not for a year of its release date"

Which does suck. They have said though that Nuclear blast is releasing the album in July if the crowdfunding works out (they're currently at 145k out of 150k after 24 hours so it definitely will) so I guess you'll be able to just buy the album by itself at that point for a normal price. Hopefully they change their mind and put it on spotify on the release date as well.


----------



## ArtDecade

.... at 99% now.


----------



## Unleash The Fury

The new clips sound really good to me.......why cant they just make Time II in the same fashion!?!?!?!?!

Come to think of it im turned off by all this that i dont even care about Time II. They shoyld just scrap it out recycle some parts and call it something else


----------



## feraledge

102% in one day. Jesus. 
I hope they achieve insane success, get all their funds, and then never complain about it again. No reason to blame anyone else anymore.


----------



## eaeolian

103%


----------



## Metropolis

oc616 said:


> You'll have to call me ignorant here, but I'm genuinely curious as to what value fans are putting on this group. The only thing I heard from Wintersun was "Beyond the Dark Sun" on a Metal Hammer compilation years ago, and I'm surprised to see that band be...revered(?) enough to warrant this type of attention/privilege. They've done 2 other albums before this, right?
> 
> I could understand a band like Periphery trying this and succeeding due to current trends, or a truly classic act like Slayer due to nostalgia. I've got to ask in this instance, what's the appeal? Over the slew of other melodeath bands like At The Gates, what's the appeal of crowdfunding this particular act? I'm not trying to throw shade, if anything I'm wondering if this is some glorious meme that got out of control, "the band that didn't release their album".
> 
> Of course, a certain Necrophagist exists for that title so...



Speaking of myself, I've been listening them since year 2005, and Ensiferum before that. The mastermind himself was one of the reasons I ever grabbed up electric guitar. 

Band itself isn't one of a kind but it really is, so you have to discover it yourself.

Seen them live two times, 2006 and 2012. And four of the band members even live in the same town. I have nothing but respect towards them. And I've got more patience than most people do, when it comes to things like these.


----------



## TedEH

Metropolis said:


> Ensiferum before that.



I'll definitely give Jari credit for his contributions to Ensiferum. Those first couple of albums have some of their best stuff IMO.


----------



## ArtDecade

Metropolis said:


> The *mastermind himself* was one of the reasons I ever grabbed up electric guitar.



Slow down there, mate. He ain't Jeff Beck.


----------



## bigfau91

All the more power to Jari & co. if they reach their goal, but as has been stated, with the production people like Bulb, Plini, etc are doing in a small home studio I don't see the point.


----------



## narad

I'm fine giving them a bunch of cash for turning out some great music -- and the preview sounds awesome -- but the whole "make this thing happen together" thing is too cringey for me. You have how many followers and you got how many likes in how many minutes?? Dooooon't caaaaareee.


----------



## MrBouleDeBowling

Oh my...

I unliked their facebook page a while ago, I was sick of reading all that whining. The dude makes everything he says like a huge announcement. I was always surprised they still have such a big fanbase despite releasing nothing for a decade. 

I'm absolutely baffled that this crowdfunding is working. Now, this dude has no more excuses. EVER.


----------



## oracles

114%

If he gets this, I never want to hear anything come out of his mouth again that even resembles even the slightest hint of an excuse or complaint as to why something can't or isn't getting done.

His ego is going to be even more f*cking insane...


----------



## coreysMonster

TedEH said:


> but I hate the whole music-as-just-a-product-to-be-sold thing.


I'd argue all music is a product to be sold, unless it's being given away for free. 

I think if their sales pitch had a more natural, casual style rather than this 1980's used car salesman tone, people wouldn't have as much of an issue with it. People don't mind being sold to, they just don't like _feeling_ that they're being sold to.


----------



## Leviathus

Yeah, the video's are SUPER cringy!


----------



## feraledge

coreysMonster said:


> I think if their sales pitch had a more natural, casual style rather than this 1980's used car salesman tone, people wouldn't have as much of an issue with it. People don't mind being sold to, they just don't like _feeling_ that they're being sold to.



Used car salesman tone is definitely a part of the issue, but it's even more specific than that. It's like you bought pretty decent used car before, got some solid mileage out of it, then the salesman tells you to come back to the lot to see what he has in store, gets you to sit down, shows you the single car on the lot and that you should pay more than sticker price on it with the hope that when he gets a new sales lot that he'll have some amazing cars on it eventually that you'll want to buy. So if you want a new car that was as good as the last one, you should over invest in the okay one, because you owe him the faith, respect and allegiance to help pay for that new lot which hasn't been built. 
What's amazing is that as I put this post up, 3,452 people were totally fine with that so far. 
I think the skeptics among us greatly underestimate how much people apparently do like the feeling of being sold to. 
Again, this will get really interesting when Nuclear Blast inevitably steps in. Will Jari crowdfund to pay out breach of contract settlements? Stay tuned.


----------



## feraledge

Also: 


> The building 250.000 &#8364;
> Construction of the studio 150.000 &#8364;


If you're building from scratch, doesn't an additional 150000 to build "the studio" seem absolutely crazy? I mean, whatever, they'll seemingly get the money plus some, but if he seems to think his art is worth this much, then he should just say how much money he needs to pay himself instead of just buffering everything into additional costs. Unless the next two fundraisers are to pay for that part?


----------



## TheHandOfStone

The video was cringeworthy, but it's Wintersun. You know, the band that sang about a bird whose wings "broked and died."


----------



## Unleash The Fury

So when will the physical CD be for sale?


----------



## WhiskeyPickleJake

I despise being sold to, but I was sold on this regardless of price and content way before the announcement; Wintersun albums are one of my favorite little safe happy places one can go. 

Just can't wait for this and everything else.


----------



## downburst82

downburst82 said:


> Ya I think this is really going to fall flat for them. They are averaging 1000ish likes for their recent posts on the album/funding campaign (a few with more, highest was around 3000) out or 370 000 followers. Usually going on "likes" can be misleading but when your launching a crowd funding campaign your facebook presence and post participation is important. A couple thousand people seem invested enough to bother liking their posts, how many of those will be invested enough to actually pay $50 or whatever they are asking for their 1 tier reward system?
> 
> I know not all posts reach the full fanbase due to how facebook does things now but I believe some of their posts were paid/sponsored posts so they would have reached a significant % of that 370 000. Even with the obvious big promotion push when the campaign launches I still think they are vastly overestimating how interested people still are (at least more than $10 interested)









Although I did think the goal was going to be alot higher...but I mean..24 hours... GOOD FOR THEM!


----------



## Gio18

Unleash The Fury said:


> So when will the physical CD be for sale?



I believe in July, but thats dumb because its already finished soooooo


----------



## Fathand

feraledge said:


> Also:
> 
> If you're building from scratch, doesn't an additional 150000 to build "the studio" seem absolutely crazy? I mean, whatever, they'll seemingly get the money plus some, but if he seems to think his art is worth this much, then he should just say how much money he needs to pay himself instead of just buffering everything into additional costs. Unless the next two fundraisers are to pay for that part?



It's a standard business case calculation, massively rounded up and on the highest level possible with enough cracks in the math to support 1-2 people for a couple of years. 

Even though all the public bitching and the drama has put me off, we've all participated in this and have created enough publicity for this to happen. Which, even though I'm still a bit sceptical on this particular case, might not be a bad thing in the long run.

It's a situation where the consumers/fans will directly pay for Wintersun's "HQ". In the old days, they would build it from the money that would trickle down from the record companies throughout the years, or get a big loan. Like someone said, other bands with similar fan bases are watching and we might be seeing a lot more these kinds of crowdfunding schemes in the future..


----------



## fantom

I supported these guys by going to their shows and buying merch. Tried to help them and felt it didn't make a difference. I can't believe they just conned so many fans into practically buying them a house and private studio. Even if they put out an album a year for 5 years, this is gross overpayment. And their track record had them on a timeline of about 30-40 years to do that many albums.

As far as disallowing streaming services... What are we in 1995 again? The industry finally has a legal way to pay for digital music, which I gladly do, and I have to resort to bootleg? This will actually take money from them in the long run.

It just seems like they don't want streaming services or nuclear blast to get a percentage, which is purely greed given the technology developed and the advance.support they have received for practically no reason.

This must be the Finnish version of Brexit and Trump.


----------



## TedEH

coreysMonster said:


> I'd argue all music is a product to be sold, unless it's being given away for free.



Of course all music is a product, and clearly we're selling it most of the time. The keyword in my statement was "just". And I know plenty of artists who give away their music for free.

There's any number of reasons why music most of the time isn't entirely free, but I don't think that's (usually) driven by the artists wanting to make money. Most musicians I know just want people to hear their stuff. They're more concerned about putting on good stage shows, and people headbanging with them, and the traveling to new cities where people already know the lyrics to your songs, etc. etc.

A great example would be the people who put their albums out in full on Youtube themselves, and also put it on Spotify, and iTunes, and bandcamp, and physical CDs etc etc. It's there for free so that anyone can listen if they want to, but you can also buy it if you want to support the artist. David Maxim Micic is a good example of this- just put out his most recent release on several platforms that you can just listen to for free.

I'm sure I'm projecting a bit. To me, music isn't about money.


----------



## hairychris

fantom said:


> I supported these guys by going to their shows and buying merch. Tried to help them and felt it didn't make a difference. I can't believe they just conned so many fans into practically buying them a house and private studio. Even if they put out an album a year for 5 years, this is gross overpayment. And their track record had them on a timeline of about 30-40 years to do that many albums.
> 
> As far as disallowing streaming services... What are we in 1995 again? The industry finally has a legal way to pay for digital music, which I gladly do, and I have to resort to bootleg? This will actually take money from them in the long run.
> 
> It just seems like they don't want streaming services or nuclear blast to get a percentage, which is purely greed given the technology developed and the advance.support they have received for practically no reason.
> 
> *This must be the Finnish version of Brexit and Trump.*



Star Citizen: The Band


----------



## TheShreddinHand

What happens when we all make it to "THE STARS!!!!!!!!!!!"?


----------



## myrtorp

hairychris said:


> Star Citizen: The Band



Haha thats a good one!


I love the music but damn this sounds like a mess. Just make music dammit! You love music you make music. I dont think its harder than that. I made music with the suckies equipment, and i was bad and it sounded awfull but I had so much fun with it. 

Some bands just keep the stuff coming and you can sense that they are motivated and have fun with their music. This seems like they lost focus.


----------



## fantom

Also, completely surprised that Wintersun has taken drama one level beyond anything Nightwish was doing. That was just an interpersonal disputes and immaturity coupled with arrogance. What Wintersun is doing injects obscene levels of entitlement and inability to perform a job (face it, Jari should not be mixing his own albums). Makes sure they are the kings of Finnish metal drama.

Also blows my mind. They can't mix a few songs to finish Time, but they can go back and remix their entire back catalog? I know it is only a few more songs than the rest of Time, but clearly shows lack of prioritization. I get being a perfectionist, but if I did this at work, I would be subject to performance review, not given money by customers to build my own department.


----------



## Metropolis

TheShreddinHand said:


> What happens when we all make it to "THE STARS!!!!!!!!!!!"?



Infinite amount of Wintersun fans cocks will erect and galaxies gonna explode to billion little pieces.


----------



## iamaom

I think Wintersun might have been a one trick pony. First album was a perfect mix of symphonic elements with metal, it's what made it so famous. Time I felt like a complete symphonic synth ............ fest. Too few actual metal elements and too many orchestra swells, the guitars have been reduced to playing simple 16th note chord-tone riffed background noise. Forest Seasons doesn't look any better, just cliche violins and Jaari shouting about "darkness and shadows" for 15 minutes. Can't say this is unique though, a lot of bands go the symphonic route only to get really popular and then start thinking they're the next Beethoven, only to leave the metal part of symphonic metal as an after thought: Behemoth, Dimmu Borgir, Fleshgod Apocalypse, Nightwish, Sonta Antarctica, etc. I just like a little more metal in my metal if ya know what I mean?


----------



## feraledge

fantom said:


> Also blows my mind. They can't mix a few songs to finish Time, but they can go back and remix their entire back catalog? I know it is only a few more songs than the rest of Time, but clearly shows lack of prioritization. I get being a perfectionist, but if I did this at work, I would be subject to performance review, not given money by customers to build my own department.



 This is a very legitimate observation.


----------



## Unleash The Fury

Does anyone know when the physical CD will be released?


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Unleash The Fury said:


> Does anyone know when the physical CD will be released?



"The release date is estimated for July 2017 due to Nuclear Blast's release schedule and Nuclear Blast will confirm the exact date later."

So about 4 months.


----------



## Unleash The Fury

Lorcan Ward said:


> "The release date is estimated for July 2017 due to Nuclear Blast's release schedule and Nuclear Blast will confirm the exact date later."
> 
> So about 4 months.



Oh thats way too long. Well hopefully a digital download of the album by itself will be released before then, then. Unless nothing at all is being released by then. Even the people that pre-ordered the package, they wont get that package until July?


----------



## iron blast

All the comments in this thread are making me sick. Especially the ones complaining about artist not giving away their music free and trying to make profit. This generation of spoiled bratts that want to pirate and download everything free or youtube and spotify are what has killed the music industry it is near impossible to play music live as a ocupation anymore much less extreme forms like metal. The time, effort, and resources that go into making any album are almost enough to bankrupt even the wealthy.


----------



## iamaom

iron blast said:


> The time, effort, and resources that go into making any album are almost enough to bankrupt even the wealthy.



Oh please, there are plenty of both studio and bedroom musicians who've made great music on a budget and short amount of time. The first Foo Fighters album was written and recorded in a week.


----------



## oracles

iron blast said:


> The time, effort, and resources that go into making any album are almost enough to bankrupt even the wealthy.



5+ years ago, I might've agreed with you. In this day and age, that couldn't be further from the truth. There's a myriad of people currently writing, recording, mixing and distributing releases from their own bedrooms, and they're f*cking killing it. 

Plini has more than 3 releases to his name, has toured all over Australia, Europe and the US and produced all of it from his bedroom. Sithu Aye has done it. It's going to continue to happen, and it's only going to get more prevalent. You don't need a massive studio with 100k+ worth of equipment anymore, anyone with a laptop and a $60 copy of reaper can put together a great sounding record without leaving their houses.


----------



## iron blast

The sound you call great still can use considerable improvement imho. I have a studio and I still am not happy with my results and I have spent a considerable amount on equipment costing almost 3x's as much as they are asking for. Outboard gear isn't cheap. Sure you can pirate programs and use reaper with a 57 mic but is it going to compete with 10k mics and pre's with room treatment ect?


----------



## Jonathan20022

You can get plenty of mileage out of your gear, most people just give up and would rather go the expensive route than try it. Knowledge goes quite a bit farther than money when it comes to mixing too, so keep that in mind.


----------



## fantom

iron blast said:


> The sound you call great still can use considerable improvement imho. I have a studio and I still am not happy with my results and I have spent a considerable amount on equipment costing almost 3x's as much as they are asking for. Outboard gear isn't cheap. Sure you can pirate programs and use reaper with a 57 mic but is it going to compete with 10k mics and pre's with room treatment ect?



There is a huge difference between needing a studio and renting a studio. Wintersun has 1.5 albums. They don't need to buy gear. They need to pay someone to use studio space. This argument makes absolutely no sense for a single artist.


----------



## fantom

iron blast said:


> All the comments in this thread are making me sick. Especially the ones complaining about artist not giving away their music free and trying to make profit. This generation of spoiled bratts that want to pirate and download everything free or youtube and spotify are what has killed the music industry it is near impossible to play music live as a ocupation anymore much less extreme forms like metal. The time, effort, and resources that go into making any album are almost enough to bankrupt even the wealthy.



Assuming this was directed at my 1995 and bootleg comment...

I have legally purchased or leased with streaming services all music I listen to for 20+ years. I'm pointing out that removing the way fans want to listen to music leads to lost revenue and piracy. The record industry took the better part of 10-15 years to finally understand this. The fact that a band with a record contract has gotten into such a financial disagreement with their record label that they ignore the trend of how fans listen to music is regressive and only going to hurt them. If they want to get out of their contract and act like a garage band, they should just run a campaign to buyout their contract. I would at least respect them for that.


----------



## DredFul

fantom said:


> I'm pointing out that removing the way fans want to listen to music leads to lost revenue and piracy



I have to agree. I assume everyone has noticed that record labels have started to upload albums to their youtube pages. That is probably because someone will eventually upload it anyway so they might as well try to cut their losses to minimum and get at least some of that sweet youtube ad revenue.

On Spotify: I imagine, since any album WILL get pirated, it's the same thing, cutting your losses. If someone doesn't find album X on their favourite streaming service they will just find another way, probably one that doesn't give the artist any money. At least through Spotify people can discover the album X, enjoy it and possibly start spreading the word which could lead to more new fans who are willing to buy the album.

Am I being too optimistic here?  Not a fan of streaming services but it is what it is and artists have to adapt to survive.


----------



## Black_Sheep

Jonathan20022 said:


> You can get plenty of mileage out of your gear, most people just give up and would rather go the expensive route than try it. Knowledge goes quite a bit farther than money when it comes to mixing too, so keep that in mind.



This. 

I remember when i saw Jari's add in a Finnish used gear marketplace a couple years back. He sold guitars and effects, i don't remember everything but one was an Ibanez Jem that he supposedly used to record solos for "Time" (and yes, that affected the price tag) ...I remember thinking "oh, he probably does this to raise more money for the next studio sessions for Time II" ...Nope. Soon they upgraded their gear, Ibanez LACS guitars and just newer amps and stuff. And now they have massive problem with money 


Another thing Jari keeps complaining is his apartment and all the .... that's going on with that. He's been complaining about it even before "Time" was released or recorded.... Well, I had a crappy apartment once, landlord was a douche, the neighbors were total douches, there was some mold under the bathroom floor that caused my skin to itch, so guess what? I f**king moved! And never looked back. 


I've met Jari a few times, once I flat out asked him if he's ever gonna release Time II, he said "of course! it's right around the corner man!" and seemed really enthusiastic about it. Dunno. What i do know about the guy, is that he's the worst kinda control freak who has to have total control over everything and still isn't happy. 

I like Wintersun but all this drama is just ridiculous. And we've seen it before. Let's hope something good happens eventually. Unless they have a super cool vinyl press of the album, im not pre-ordering anything.


----------



## TedEH

iron blast said:


> All the comments in this thread are making me sick. [...] it is near impossible to play music live as a ocupation anymore



The only part of your statement that I see as being even remotely true is the word "occupation" thrown in. If you take the "biz" out of the whole equation, music is doing just fine.


----------



## Gio18

iron blast said:


> All the comments in this thread are making me sick. Especially the ones complaining about artist not giving away their music free and trying to make profit. This generation of spoiled bratts that want to pirate and download everything free or youtube and spotify are what has killed the music industry it is near impossible to play music live as a ocupation anymore much less extreme forms like metal.



You make music I like I buy a physical copy. Plain and simple.


----------



## TheShreddinHand

The more I think about this whole thing the more it boggles my mind. Where the heck is Jari getting his figures from for how much this is all going to cost? I don't know about Finland, but in the states (pittsburgh specifically) you can build a 3,000 sq. ft. home on 1/2 an acre for half the amount of money he's saying the total of all campaigns will be (750,000). It's probably much less in more rural areas and more expensive in bigger cities, but you get the idea. And you don't pay for it all at once, it's called a mortgage.

If I was investing (which I'm not, I will buy the CD when it releases) I would want proof of these figures he came up with. Where are the 3 bids (minimum of what he should get) he received for what this would all cost? Where are the blueprints and details on the space being built and equipment being bought? Where are details on the land chosen?

While some in this thread have compared him to a used car salesman, I think he's a modern day Jim Bakker (to a lesser degree) only in the music/metal world and using the internet to sucker folks out of money (for those too young, Jim Bakker was a corrupt televangelist that swindled a lot of folks out of millions, including my grandparents). I could be wrong and he may deliver on everything he's promising but his track record is pretty bleak.

I don't have a horse in this race, but this will certainly be entertaining to watch.


----------



## Metropolis

TheShreddinHand said:


> The more I think about this whole thing the more it boggles my mind. Where the heck is Jari getting his figures from for how much this is all going to cost? I don't know about Finland, but in the states (pittsburgh specifically) you can build a 3,000 sq. ft. home on 1/2 an acre for half the amount of money he's saying the total of all campaigns will be (750,000). It's probably much less in more rural areas and more expensive in bigger cities, but you get the idea. And you don't pay for it all at once, it's called a mortgage.



Finland is expensive country, sales tax from that amount of money in here is 24%, that and other costs from crowdfunding included is 250,000. They have already consulted local building companies about their plans. And that studio will be very high-end.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Metropolis said:


> Finland is expensive country, sales tax from that amount of money in here is 24%, that and other costs from crowdfunding included is 250,000. They have already consulted local building companies about their plans. And that studio will be very high-end.



Sounds like he should got a real job a while ago, then.


----------



## Mathemagician

GunpointMetal said:


> Sounds like he should got a real job a while ago, then.



Yeah but why? He's just proven he doesn't have to work. Putting out one album 11 years ago is enough to ask people to buy him a studio. That he now owns free and clear. Wow. Lol.


----------



## Fathand

Actually, one of the comments above made me think - and anyone from Finland who has experience about corporate taxation feel free to chime in, I've never been an entrepreneur. 

Are they really funding this for themselves personally, or for "Wintersun Inc" (whatever it may be). 1/3 of the sum for (corporate) taxes sounds about right - but can't they make nice tax deductions for underwriting the buildings value for a few years after completion because it's new (and loses value according to tax calculations etc.) This might be the reason why they want to build and not repair - naturally, IIRC. 

EDIT: just to clarify, that's not bad IMO - it's actually the smart thing to do if so.


----------



## Metropolis

GunpointMetal said:


> Sounds like he should got a real job a while ago, then.



Real life job to get that amount of money would waste half of his life in this country. This is not United States.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Then if a hardworking person who saves money their entire lives then cannot achieve that in your country then what makes Jari and co so deserving?


----------



## WhiskeyPickleJake

Jonathan20022 said:


> Then if a hardworking person who saves money their entire lives then cannot achieve that in your country then what makes Jari and co so deserving?



Simple, he's a good artist and he's the one taking the risks. When I risked all of my time, money, and passion to start a business ten years ago I also expected to reap benefits to my pleasing.


----------



## Jonathan20022

WhiskeyPickleJake said:


> Simple, he's a good artist and he's the one taking the risks. When I risked all of my time, money, and passion to start a business ten years ago I also expected to reap benefits to my pleasing.



If you really want to compare this to a business like in your case, his practices are terrible and he would run any business straight into the ground. You can't promise people things, not deliver and sell people things in the way they are in any other industry.

Life is hard, and everything is a risk. If you chose the path of most resistance and dedicate to it, good on you but no one owes you a thing in life. You work for what you have and he comes across as a very entitled person.


----------



## WhiskeyPickleJake

This is a world record forum disagreement- longest thread with honest differing opinions that didn't turn into a caps lock shouting match. I'm actually very proud to be here. 

Back to disagreeing- I haven't gotten a feeling of spoiled entitlement from Jari's career, but I'm the first to admit I've been a huge fan of the music for 12 years. Most of that time spent wondering where the next album was, but not closely following the drama. 

My solid disagreement, however, is with the people who seem to find crowdfunding unethical and classless. We're fans of a small niche that has never enjoyed the market share of pop or hip hop. I've never collected a paycheck from writing or performing, but I'm glad to pay directly to the artists who make me happy to ensure that they keep playing instead of growing up and getting a "real job". 

Also I'm 34 so only half millennial.


----------



## dax21

It's not about deserving. Whether someone deserves something or not, it makes no difference and is absolutely irrelevant. He is asking for something, and people are enabling him by agreeing. People who support him are more to blame than him.

I'm sure Nuclear Blast and Wintersun had a mutual fallback plan in case of the funding failing which was far more low-cost.

If everyone stopped giving this band attention and money they would be forced to do things the same traditional way as everyone else. But fans pamper them and then they get to dictate the rules.

The fans are to blame, the word blame used due to lack of a better term.


----------



## Jonathan20022

WhiskeyPickleJake said:


> This is a world record forum disagreement- longest thread with honest differing opinions that didn't turn into a caps lock shouting match. I'm actually very proud to be here.
> 
> Back to disagreeing- I haven't gotten a feeling of spoiled entitlement from Jari's career, but I'm the first to admit I've been a huge fan of the music for 12 years. Most of that time spent wondering where the next album was, but not closely following the drama.
> 
> My solid disagreement, however, is with the people who seem to find crowdfunding unethical and classless. We're fans of a small niche that has never enjoyed the market share of pop or hip hop. I've never collected a paycheck from writing or performing, but I'm glad to pay directly to the artists who make me happy to ensure that they keep playing instead of growing up and getting a "real job".
> 
> Also I'm 34 so only half millennial.



It definitely is a dilemma, as the package itself isn't a bad value especially to someone who doesn't have those records and is discovering most of it for the first time. 50 Euro for all that isn't bad, but their goal and what they want to use their funds for is insane to me. I'm definitely not against artists getting paid, and I really enjoy the bandcamp pay what you want service as you can really even put more into something that you particularly enjoy. But there are parts of this wintersun debacle that I completely disagree with.


----------



## WhiskeyPickleJake

Jonathan20022 said:


> It definitely is a dilemma, as the package itself isn't a bad value especially to someone who doesn't have those records and is discovering most of it for the first time. 50 Euro for all that isn't bad, but their goal and what they want to use their funds for is insane to me. I'm definitely not against artists getting paid, and I really enjoy the bandcamp pay what you want service as you can really even put more into something that you particularly enjoy. But there are parts of this wintersun debacle that I completely disagree with.



I'm hesitant, but willing to read the rest of the drama now. I only hope it doesn't spoil it for me, Teemu is the only guitar teacher I've ever had!


----------



## hairychris

WhiskeyPickleJake said:


> Simple, he's a good artist and he's the one taking the risks. When I risked all of my time, money, and passion to start a business ten years ago I also expected to reap benefits to my pleasing.



To be honest that doesn't sound like he's the one taking the risk, though!


----------



## TedEH

hairychris said:


> To be honest that doesn't sound like he's the one taking the risk, though!



I tried saying something like that a while back - Jari isn't taking much of a risk here, outside of whatever damage to their reputation they're having to endure. Investing your own time and money in a product in the hopes that you can sell it and repeat the process would be taking a risk- that's not what's happening here. Wintersun is asking their fans to do the investing, and therefor bear the risk.

If all these big plans never happen, who's out their money? The fans who bought into it.


----------



## WhiskeyPickleJake

I was thinking more like spending almost ten years writing music without guarantee of compensation when your primary career and source of income comes from music. 

Was he guaranteed compensation from Nuclear Blast?


----------



## TedEH

I don't know about 'guaranteed' per-se, but he definitely received money from NB at least once. I don't subscribe to the notion that having a job means you are no longer a musician for some reason though.



WhiskeyPickleJake said:


> to ensure that they keep playing instead of growing up and getting a "real job".



You may be onto something when you say this whole deal is keeping them from 'growing up' though. 

I've spent the last three or four years or so with a real job, and it hasn't hindered my ability to be a musician. I've a release from 2013 that I played on, one from 2016 that I played on, mixed and mastered, one that is about to release that I played, mixed, mastered, and another that should be out this summer that I wrote, played every instrument, mixed, mastered, and I'm doing the art/marketing etc. on my own. I also went on a short tour as a session guitarist for a doom band last summer. And I've done a handful of shows with two bands, plus a couple of acoustic shindigs. And I'm doing this while I have a full time job. If I can do this, then "the master himself" should be more than able to pull off ONE album in 10 years while not having any other responsibilities.


----------



## hairychris

WhiskeyPickleJake said:


> I was thinking more like spending almost ten years writing music without guarantee of compensation when your primary career and source of income comes from music.
> 
> Was he guaranteed compensation from Nuclear Blast?



He had a contract to supply NB with music in return for funding/etc. This won't be enough to live on without huge sales, I'd imagine.

I know people personally who have sold more units than Jari and still have to hold down day jobs. You'll be surprised to know how many well known musicians are in this situation.

It sucks, but as the one person that I do know well who has sold enough units to go full-time says: music doesn't owe the musician anything, in and of itself. You have to work at it. Jari... does not strike me as having done this. Spending 10 years failing to record an album is not a good look. 

EDIT: Note, none of my opinions are anything to do with his talent or ability, *except* where this (or lack of control!) has caused him problems.

EDIT 2: Thought about this some more:



WhiskeyPickleJake said:


> I was thinking more like spending almost ten years writing music without guarantee of compensation when your primary career and source of income comes from music.



This situation is stupid. If it is as you say then it's absolutely the most self-indulgent bag of arse that I've ever heard of!

Not knocking you, for sure, but consider it: why should *anyone* be entitled to spend 10 years doing this and expect to be supported by other people?


----------



## j3ps3

Don't know if you guys are able to find this funny with the subtitles, but as a Finn I had a good laugh at this


----------



## Semi-pro

hairychris said:


> Not knocking you, for sure, but consider it: why should *anyone* be entitled to spend 10 years doing this and expect to be supported by other people?



While I understand where that point is coming from - still, the success of the campaign this far is yet another example that it's not about how much one asks but what others are willing to pay for. They just estimated quite accurately their surprisingly big number of supporters at this point of what most call a farce, and that's a ballsy move. Not arrogant, but bold.


----------



## heathenhotel

I can completely understand crowd funding the recording of a new album but to crowd fund the building of a band headquarters with professional studio and so on is insanity. That studio is going to be used to record other bands eventually which will make money etc. If the fans wanna pay into all this, more power to them but I just feel like this whole thing is a bit much.


----------



## WhiskeyPickleJake

I'm seeing it from your perspective much better now, and the idea of funding the whole studio seems unprecedented. I'm still bitter about the way the whole world has gone. 

And yes, that video was funny even by the subtitles.


----------



## Leviathus

I gotta give it up to Jari and the boys though.

They executed that "ask and ye shall recieve" s#$% amazingly.


----------



## Gio18

Leviathus said:


> I gotta give it up to Jari and the boys though.
> 
> They executed that "ask and ye shall recieve" s#$% amazingly.



More like "ask for a couple of years, fund our studio and ye shall recieve"


----------



## Veldar

I wouldn't trust these guys with a stick of gum let alone cash, they haven't released music in so long it genuinely surprises me people are giving them money


----------



## Xaios

I'm surprised that so many people here are surprised that this worked. Despite the fact that I enjoy their music very much, I was never going to jump on the crowdfunding wagon. It's not how I roll. I don't pay for unfinished products...


...now. I was one of the original backers of Star Citizen. I'm not out a terribly huge amount of money, only $30. But I definitely learned two things from that: a) never take a crowdfunder's word for it when it comes to when something's going to get released, and b) playing off nostalgia is a one of the easiest ways there is to make money. Knowing the latter, the success of their crowdfunding campaign doesn't surprise me in the slightest.


----------



## ArtHam

I wouldn't say it worked just yet, since the donations have stalled significantly and they intend to raise 750k. If they don't get that they can't build the actual studio. 
The only thing that worked is that the proposed new album release is safe. They said they want to do 3 crowdfundings in total but thought they could get they whole amount with one campaign.


----------



## Gio18

But the album is already done. This whole crowdfunding thing is basically for the "wintersun studio".


----------



## ArtHam

Gio18 said:


> But the album is already done. This whole crowdfunding thing is basically for the "wintersun studio".



I know, that's why I said "release". Time II hase been done for years too, but Jari can't mix it in another studio.
It would be so ironic if they actually get the studio but then find the studio "has no magic in it" or a room with bad acoustics that doesn't sound good for drums which can happen in the best studios and is a harsh reality for some major studios that do drums at another place.
I do hope things work out for Wintersun but will be the first to admit that Jari's incessant complaining the past few years and now they way he presents himself as a victim in the new videos does make me cringe.


----------



## hairychris

Semi-pro said:


> While I understand where that point is coming from - still, the success of the campaign this far is yet another example that* it's not about how much one asks but what others are willing to pay for*. They just estimated quite accurately their surprisingly big number of supporters at this point of what most call a farce, and that's a ballsy move. Not arrogant, but bold.



Yeah.

Still totally entitled, though...! 



Xaios said:


> I'm surprised that so many people here are surprised that this worked. Despite the fact that I enjoy their music very much, I was never going to jump on the crowdfunding wagon. It's not how I roll. I don't pay for unfinished products...
> 
> 
> ...now. I was one of the original backers of Star Citizen. I'm not out a terribly huge amount of money, only $30. But I definitely learned two things from that: a) never take a crowdfunder's word for it when it comes to when something's going to get released, and b) playing off nostalgia is a one of the easiest ways there is to make money. Knowing the latter, the success of their crowdfunding campaign doesn't surprise me in the slightest.



I'm not a backer of either but I did make the comparison a couple of pages back.


----------



## TedEH

ArtHam said:


> but Jari can't mix it in another studio.


If I can successfully mix on budget monitors in my un-acoustically-treated living room, but he can't mix in any proper studio, then he's a bad engineer and should hire someone to do the job right. This "can't do it in any ol' studio" is the biggest crock of this whole deal.



ArtHam said:


> It would be so ironic if they actually get the studio but then find the studio "has no magic in it" or a room with bad acoustics that doesn't sound good for drums which can happen in the best studios and is a harsh reality for some major studios that do drums at another place.



It wouldn't be ironic at all. Irony requires a reversal of expectations - and I fully expect that Jari is capable of that level of bull. As a side note, it doesn't matter if they have a good drum room- the drums have already been recorded. You don't need a "good drum room" to MIX drums.


----------



## ArtDecade

The band isn't even that good... Crazy. I may have spent a couple hours in 10+ years listening to their music.


----------



## oracles

Gio18 said:


> More like "ask for a couple of years, fund our studio and ye shall recieve"



More like "ask for a couple of years, fund our studio, and _maybe_ ye shall receive, if I don't find more excuses to stall/delay"


----------



## Leviathus

I'm sayin it's amazing they just basically asked people for money and it worked.


----------



## Razerjack

Given that they actually have new recorded material to sell from the beginning, I wouldn't call it 'asking for money', more like selling the product in Indiegogo. I wouldn't be surprised if this is just a clever way to keep Nuclear Blast out of the deal, as they're basically selling 'The Forest Seasons' directly

Personally I find this package of decent value and actually prefer this to the 'traditional' crowdfunding where the recording normally hasn't started yet and the reward is much more delayed. Although I can definitely see why one would object this, still, buying the 'package' alone is good enough for me.


----------



## Metropolis

It sounds amazing, I can't wait to hear the whole album and see them live at Tuska 2017.


----------



## Repner

It sounds amazing. I'll definitely get the physical album when it comes out.

Funny how this sounds far superior to the over ambitious stuff he needs a massive studio for. I was a big fan of Time I, but this sounds better production wise.


----------



## Grand Rabbit

I totally understand the desire to have a headquarters. What recording musician wouldn't want fully private access to a wonderland of musical equipment to capture every whim of your imagination every day and night?

However, with 200k Euros, they could already fund three or four, or being more reasonable, basically countless albums. In this day and age, it's ridiculous to be spending so much on making an album of four musicians... I record in my bedroom, direct line in to a laptop with ableton live... my stuff comes out sounding amateur, of course, but damn man I can play it for people and they like it, and my ideas are getting saved. 

I want them to succeed, I really do hope they get this studio because I want to see more musicians doing things like this. Hendrix did it withe Electric Lady Land Studio, and if he had survived, I believe he would have been so productive that he really would have changed the world and made some amazing music. Let's just hope that if they do get this studio, they will have no reason to complain about anything, ever, period, and just make some epic music like they've promised.


edit: by "doing things like this" I mean setting up a personal studio and making the music themselves with dedication to the craft. However, the way that Wintersun is going about it is just plain odd. I feel like all you can do, if you're gonna ask for money, is simply ask rather than holding the album back if you don't get your new toys.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

The Wintersun fan in me caved and bought the Forest package. Suppose I can mute all further updates/posts from Jari and just looking forward to new Wintersun this summer 

I was looking at similar bands last night who have huge studio costs. Nightwish had a budget of 250,000 for Once and 500,000 for Dark Passion Play but that alone has sold 20 times more copies than Wintersun have. Its ridiculous of Jari to think he could get budgets that big for albums or even his own studio.


----------



## GunpointMetal

in this day 250K to make ONE album is absolutely insane....


----------



## hairychris

Grand Rabbit said:


> I totally understand the desire to have a headquarters. What recording musician wouldn't want fully private access to a wonderland of musical equipment to capture every whim of your imagination every day and night?
> 
> However, with 200k Euros, they could already fund three or four, or being more reasonable, basically countless albums. In this day and age, it's ridiculous to be spending so much on making an album of four musicians... I record in my bedroom, direct line in to a laptop with ableton live... my stuff comes out sounding amateur, of course, but damn man I can play it for people and they like it, and my ideas are getting saved.
> 
> I want them to succeed, I really do hope they get this studio because I want to see more musicians doing things like this. Hendrix did it withe Electric Lady Land Studio, and if he had survived, I believe he would have been so productive that he really would have changed the world and made some amazing music. Let's just hope that if they do get this studio, they will have no reason to complain about anything, ever, period, and just make some epic music like they've promised.
> 
> 
> edit: by "doing things like this" I mean setting up a personal studio and making the music themselves with dedication to the craft. However, the way that Wintersun is going about it is just plain odd. I feel like all you can do, if you're gonna ask for money, is simply ask rather than holding the album back if you don't get your new toys.



Yeah, comparing with Hendrix probably isn't the way to go, to be honest. JH output a lot of material in a relatively short space of time and generally worked pretty hard.

Funding models were also different as there was a lot more money in the industry, but on the other hand Hendrix also sold a considerable amount of records while he was still alive to back it up (and also managed to influence pretty much every electric guitarist going forwards).

Wintersun aren't bad, but, yeah, not this level. Seriously, I also think that Jari may benefit from taking some composition lessons but that's a whole other story (note: number of tracks on your DAW does not directly equate to how "epic" your score might be).  

That they got the money that they did... well, humanity hasn't lost it's capacity to surprise!


----------



## WhiskeyPickleJake

Last video wasn't as bad, but holy crap he used a ToneLab modeling pedal instead of AxeFX or Mesa!?!?!


----------



## WishIwasfinnish

WhiskeyPickleJake said:


> Last video wasn't as bad, but holy crap he used a ToneLab modeling pedal instead of AxeFX or Mesa!?!?!



Hahah yes, this made me realize a lot about modern metal production.

IMO, this last video really laid out the purpose of this whole thing. Jari basically said that he's gonna keep making albums (which he will have to do if he wants to do future crowdfunding campaigns) in a certain style of music similar to this. I love this sound, which is very similar to the first album, and I always wanted more of it. 

I was hoping Time I would be that sound, but I didn't know (and no one else did either, I think) what Jari was really trying to do. I wish they'd released 2 or 3 more albums in between the first album and Time I with this sound and recorded on a budget, which Jari clearly has the capabilities to do. It always baffled me why Jari could make such an amazing first album and struggled with the second one, when the first one was my favorite and was recorded fairly quickly and without lots of resources. It's good to know that he still has it in him to make as good or better music similar to the first album, which I honestly never expected to actually happen. 

That said, as a massive Wintersun fan, I am dying to hear a full budget, properly recorded (maybe even with a real orchestra) Wintersun album that Time II would probably be, which is why I'm probably going to support this band for all future crowdfunding campaigns, especially if they continue to deliver excellent packages like this one.


----------



## WhiskeyPickleJake

WishIwasfinnish said:


> Hahah yes, this made me realize a lot about modern metal production.
> 
> IMO, this last video really laid out the purpose of this whole thing. Jari basically said that he's gonna keep making albums (which he will have to do if he wants to do future crowdfunding campaigns) in a certain style of music similar to this. I love this sound, which is very similar to the first album, and I always wanted more of it.
> 
> I was hoping Time I would be that sound, but I didn't know (and no one else did either, I think) what Jari was really trying to do. I wish they'd released 2 or 3 more albums in between the first album and Time I with this sound and recorded on a budget, which Jari clearly has the capabilities to do. It always baffled me why Jari could make such an amazing first album and struggled with the second one, when the first one was my favorite and was recorded fairly quickly and without lots of resources. It's good to know that he still has it in him to make as good or better music similar to the first album, which I honestly never expected to actually happen.
> 
> That said, as a massive Wintersun fan, I am dying to hear a full budget, properly recorded (maybe even with a real orchestra) Wintersun album that Time II would probably be, which is why I'm probably going to support this band for all future crowdfunding campaigns, especially if they continue to deliver excellent packages like this one.



Agreed. Almost typed a whole thing about generational correlation but meh, who cares. I'd love more "normal" albums like the first with maybe a big production 4 song thing like Time and a Forest Seasons here and there. Ghost has been doing album, EP, album, EP, album, etc for years now and it really works nicely.


----------



## WishIwasfinnish

WhiskeyPickleJake said:


> Agreed. Almost typed a whole thing about generational correlation but meh, who cares. I'd love more "normal" albums like the first with maybe a big production 4 song thing like Time and a Forest Seasons here and there. Ghost has been doing album, EP, album, EP, album, etc for years now and it really works nicely.



That would be ideal.


----------



## Unleash The Fury

Jari wants a new studio to produce albums that sound larger than life. But realistically, what kind of listening devices/mediums, can actually represent everything he hears in his studio? The most expensive audio gear that you can buy at Best Buy can probably not come close to how good it will sound actually being in the studio recording it. 

What if we cannot hear any differences? Most of my music listening is done in my car that I plug in my sony mp3 player............so is it going to make a bigger difference to ME that he has an even better studio than what he has now? Is his hopeful new studio going to translate to a better audio experience for me? For the majority of Wintersun fans? 

Isnt it that the quality of sound is limited to the gear one owns? How many people can afford expensive stereos? How many people will be listening with earbuds? Is it all worth a brand new studio? Why not jist make Time2 with what youve got since the Forest Seasons sounds better than Time 1 so far, production wise?

Just saw the 4th studio diary and kinda clarifies what i jist asked


----------



## Zalbu

Lorcan Ward said:


> The Wintersun fan in me caved and bought the Forest package. Suppose I can mute all further updates/posts from Jari and just looking forward to new Wintersun this summer
> 
> I was looking at similar bands last night who have huge studio costs. Nightwish had a budget of 250,000 for Once and 500,000 for Dark Passion Play but that alone has sold 20 times more copies than Wintersun have. Its ridiculous of Jari to think he could get budgets that big for albums or even his own studio.


Nightwish brought in the London Philharmonic Orchestra for Once, Jari could bring in an actual orchestra with the kind of money he's asking for instead of needing a computer with a terabyte of RAM to be able to mix his VST instruments properly


----------



## Dayn

Unleash The Fury said:


> What if we cannot hear any differences? Most of my music listening is done in my car that I plug in my sony mp3 player............so is it going to make a bigger difference to ME that he has an even better studio than what he has now? Is his hopeful new studio going to translate to a better audio experience for me? For the majority of Wintersun fans?


For what it's worth, whenever I listen to any song from Time I, I always hear something new that I never knew was there. It's an album that keeps on giving.


----------



## Infernal_Death

One thing seems a bit strange to me. In all those update videos, Jari and the other guys talk like "best performance to date, best vocal lines, best atmosphere, best everything". So why do they need a own studio when apperently they are able to deliver stuff they themselves feel it's their best ?

And the other thing is: i think Jari is a perfectionist and especially the kind that sometimes needs some pressure to actually get things done. I somehow have the feeling that having a own studio where he doesn't have to pay for the time just enables him to hit the delete button as often as he likes. 
I get the feeling there won't be any faster releases, he just can keep on start all over as much as he likes to. I really will be surprised if the pace of wintersun releases actually will pick up after they getting their "headquarters".

Flo


----------



## Metropolis

Infernal_Death said:


> One thing seems a bit strange to me. In all those update videos, Jari and the other guys talk like "best performance to date, best vocal lines, best atmosphere, best everything". So why do they need a own studio when apperently they are able to deliver stuff they themselves feel it's their best ?



Best is subjective, but it's about best everything for this particular album. Raw, still modern and well produced, everything what Wintersun has to be.


----------



## Unleash The Fury

Infernal_Death said:


> One thing seems a bit strange to me. In all those update videos, Jari and the other guys talk like "best performance to date, best vocal lines, best atmosphere, best everything". So why do they need a own studio when apperently they are able to deliver stuff they themselves feel it's their best ?
> 
> And the other thing is: i think Jari is a perfectionist and especially the kind that sometimes needs some pressure to actually get things done. I somehow have the feeling that having a own studio where he doesn't have to pay for the time just enables him to hit the delete button as often as he likes.
> I get the feeling there won't be any faster releases, he just can keep on start all over as much as he likes to. I really will be surprised if the pace of wintersun releases actually will pick up after they getting their "headquarters".
> 
> Flo



He said in video 4 that for they were able to get the perfect sound for THIS album but it wouldnt work for time 2. But i dont know how he knows that a new studio would be perfect for time 2 when it hasnt been built yet; it could turn out to be a dud of a studio and then what?


----------



## Chi

Coming in here without being a Wintersun fan nor knowing anything about this Jari person and his endeavors in the music business.

Fvck this dude, haha. What the hell.

You can create a ton of great music with very little. I'm sitting here using a POD, some budget monitors (you get the idea) and I'm able to manage just fine, making music some people think sounds good, production wise too. This makes me incredibly happy.

And this spoiled dude is asking for what? A personal studio? Building a goddamn house to record music in? Who does this guy think he is? If you're so passionate about music, make do with what you have. I always had to make the most of what little resources I had, it makes you perceive your work in a totally different way.

I'm seeing way too many spoiled kids in their home-studios and Mayones guitars and racks upon racks of expensive audio equipment. And guess what: they sound like crap. Then I see people with crappy equipment making great sounding music, while having to work full time. They manage.

Whoever this Jari dude is: try to fvcking manage. Jesus Christ.


----------



## Metropolis

Chi said:


> Coming in here without being a Wintersun fan nor knowing anything about this Jari person and his endeavors in the music business.
> 
> Fvck this dude, haha. What the hell.
> 
> You can create a ton of great music with very little. I'm sitting here using a POD, some budget monitors (you get the idea) and I'm able to manage just fine, making music some people think sounds good, production wise too. This makes me incredibly happy.
> 
> And this spoiled dude is asking for what? A personal studio? Building a goddamn house to record music in? Who does this guy think he is? If you're so passionate about music, make do with what you have. I always had to make the most of what little resources I had, it makes you perceive your work in a totally different way.
> 
> I'm seeing way too many spoiled kids in their home-studios and Mayones guitars and racks upon racks of expensive audio equipment. And guess what: they sound like crap. Then I see people with crappy equipment making great sounding music, while having to work full time. They manage.
> 
> Whoever this Jari dude is: try to fvcking manage. Jesus Christ.



Of course you can make good quality recordings nowadays in your livingroom. But for Jari at this time it's making or breaking it. It is his dream to have professional studio, and he's been making music since early 90's. It's about making things by yourself from start to finish. He wants to control whole process of making an album the best possible way.


----------



## Chi

Metropolis said:


> Of course you can make good quality recordings nowadays in your livingroom. But for Jari at this time it's making or breaking it. It is his dream to have professional studio, and he's been making music since early 90's. It's about making things by yourself from start to finish. He wants to control whole process of making an album the best possible way.



I get that. But there's nothing stopping him from doing just that without having to build a fancy house with a built in studio.


----------



## TedEH

Metropolis said:


> It is his dream to have professional studio



Hey, me too! Also, I'd like motorcycle. I'll start the crowdfunding page right away.


----------



## inaudio

I had to check and quite a few people have actually made "make me a millionaire" -type crowdfunding projects. 

https://www.gofundme.com/by-make-me-a-millionaire



> I'm trying to become a millionaire so I can flip that into a billion!


----------



## Metropolis

TedEH said:


> Hey, me too! Also, I'd like motorcycle. I'll start the crowdfunding page right away.



Only difference here is you don't have a big fanbase, who agrees that you deserve that kind of studio for delivering amazing music you can make in the future


----------



## WhiskeyPickleJake

Metropolis said:


> Only difference here is you don't have a big fanbase, who agrees that you deserve that kind of studio for delivering amazing music you can make in the future



The most forgotten concept in this thread


----------



## TedEH

You can make the argument that any talented musician or artist deserves all kinds of things, up to, including, and beyond their own personal studio spaces, but that doesn't make it realistic to hand it to them just for asking. "Deserving" something is meaningless. Everyone here "deserves" to have things that they don't have on some level.  To me, they haven't earned it. To each their own, as they say.


----------



## jvms

Zalbu said:


> Nightwish brought in the London Philharmonic Orchestra for Once, Jari could bring in an actual orchestra with the kind of money he's asking for instead of needing a computer with a terabyte of RAM to be able to mix his VST instruments properly



This guy has a pretty ....ing good point. .... VSTs when you have Nuclear Blast backing you. VSTs are for mere mortals who don't have tons of cash to spend on real orchestras. With the money NB gave him, he could have hired a pretty amazing one and also musicians to play every exotic instrument he wanted. No more NASA computers required.


----------



## GunpointMetal

But dude, you gotta have like 50 tracks of different instruments playing the same note three octaves apart, because that makes a HUUUUGE difference on how the final mix sounds when most of them are pushed so far back you can't even hear them anyways. And I mean, c'mon, who doesn't deserve their own studio to bite melodies from composers from 200 years ago.....


----------



## Fathand




----------



## Zalbu

jvms said:


> This guy has a pretty ....ing good point. .... VSTs when you have Nuclear Blast backing you. VSTs are for mere mortals who don't have tons of cash to spend on real orchestras. With the money NB gave him, he could have hired a pretty amazing one and also musicians to play every exotic instrument he wanted. No more NASA computers required.


Exactly, and Nightwish are on Nuclear Blast too and Wintersun and Nightwish are buddies, Kai even recorded the drums on the new Nightwish albums and toured with them. Jari should really sit down with Tuomas and pick his brain or ask him to produce Time II or something, because Tuomas is pretty much exactly what Jari is aspiring to be.


----------



## oracles




----------



## Unleash The Fury

Hes been releasing these webisodes in too close of proximity that people will get bored of them or will have heard the entire album before its released


----------



## Metropolis

Latest sample from new album Loneliness (Winter) acoustic version is one of the most beatiful pieces of music I've heard in a long time.


----------



## will_shred

I find it hard to believe that Jari doesn't have the resources and networks available to him to do the album independently without asking his fans to buy him a ....ing studio.


----------



## Metropolis

will_shred said:


> I find it hard to believe that Jari doesn't have the resources and networks available to him to do the album independently without asking his fans to buy him a ....ing studio.



They have done The Forest Seasons and previous albums at Jari's homestudio and Sonic Pump studios. He has resources, but they are not perfect for future releases. He has formed a company (wich name I don't yell here) to receive all the money legally here in Finland. So, fans are buying a product and money goes to other imaginable costs too, not just the studio.


----------



## chopeth

So... any chance to get The Forest Season as a physical copy? what about the first album and time reissues?


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Physical copy will be released by Nuclear Blast. Its very doubtful they will released the other stuff outside of the campaign but Nuclear Blast probably have a say in that.


----------



## TheBloodstained

I have a hard time understanding why people are so offended/bewildered by their crowfunding campaign? 

Now, before I go any further I just want to point out that I'm not a Wintersun fanboy, nor am I a big fan. I enjoyed the Time album, but it's not counted amongst my favorite albums.

I have been following this thread silently, and yes, I too shook my head at some of Jaris posts and videos, but ultimately I realized that I actually admire Jari and the boys for dreaming big, and for having the guts to pursue those dreams.

They are not forcing you to put money into their campaign, and if you contribute you will get a new album (and ultimately the band will get their studio).

That's pretty win-win if you ask me 

I was tempted to back the project because of the album I'd get out of it, but I'm a bit low on cash currently. Still following the project from the side, though


----------



## rocky0

As awkward Jari and the co-bandmates are. You gotta give it to him that it's not wrong to ASK for money. Fans are the ones who are paying here.

He is a great musician in my eyes although i'm not the biggest fan of their music. Curious to hear what he can come up with in the near-future.


----------



## hairychris

Seems that Jari's got a new Daemoness....


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Edit: Oops thought the headstock angle was blue from the lighting 



> Jari rocking his new Daemoness Forest Guitar to the song 'The Forest That Weeps (Summer) from our new album 'The Forest Seasons'. Statement from Jari about his new Daemoness guitar and the relationships with Ibanez and Daemoness:
> 
> "I will be starting working together with Dylan from Daemoness Guitars. I've developed a great relationship with him over the past couple of years and he's a massive Wintersun fan and wants to make the best guitars for our future Wintersun projects. This means I am not officially endorsed by Ibanez anymore, but I will continue to play the Ibanez guitars as well, since I love them too! Ibanez was cool with my decision and they still want to help Wintersun any way they can, and I'm truly grateful for all the support they have given Wintersun for over 10 years already and I thank them from the bottom of my heart!
> 
> This decision was not made lightly. The main reasons are that I'm dropping the live guitar and we have a new guitarist joining the band (announced soon)! I will be focusing 100% on live singing and working with guitars more in the studio side of things. And in studio I want to explore more different guitars and shoot video documentaries of my studio work. Also the innovation of EverTune influenced my decision. It is a 100% must for me! Dylan will build me EverTune guitars from the ground up with the smallest fine details and specs that I desire. My "deal" with Daemoness Guitars is a non-exclusive endorsement, Dylan does not mind me playing other guitars publicly. And like I said, I will still keep playing the Ibanez guitar as well, but Dylan and I will be working on some specialty guitars for the future Wintersun projects.
> 
> The Forest Guitar was our first project and we are already planning the next "future" guitar."  - Jari







> Jari Maenpaa of Wintersun's Daemoness signature series "FOREST" Cimmerian has arrived.


----------



## TedEH

> Also the innovation of EverTune influenced my decision. It is a 100% must for me!



Of course it's a 'must'. Anything less than the best guitar he can find, with his name inscribed personally on it by the builder, would be able to fully express his genius vision. 

Sorry, couldn't help it.


----------



## squids

ok i have been kinda silently following this (im pretty meh on wintersun) but after reading that quote from Jari, im pretty confused. He's dropping ibanez for a small boutique luthier, BUT hes not even playing guitar live? what's the point of getting some new endorsement, even if it is non exclusive, if he's not even playing publicly? this guy has a weird way of making sense of things for sure.


----------



## Jarmake

Am I the only one that finds forest season clips dull and repetitive? And the sounds aren't that good to be honest. Also, if you have Kai Hahto on your band why not use him to play the drums on the record? These sound awful lot like computer programmed to me...


----------



## Asrial

^Personally thought the "ambient" guitar/harp going on in the clip is way too ....ing loud. Otherwise, eh, sounded allright. Guitar is dope tho, although why is the G string saddle/nut not fully milled?


----------



## Lemons

Asrial said:


> Guitar is dope tho, although why is the G string saddle/nut not fully milled?



What you see on the nut is the equivalent of adjusting intonation at the bridge, if I remember correctly its called a compensated nut. The reason the G string is not milled out is that the intonation at the nut did not need adjustment.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Its a compensated nut for intonation. The point of the G string is actually forward while the rest are closer to their usual position on a regular nut.


----------



## myrtorp

Alestorm made a parody of their crowdfunding video hahaha!


----------



## Mathemagician

So did you guys get your new album that was being held hostage yet? How are you liking it?


----------



## Metropolis

Mathemagician said:


> So did you guys get your new album that was being held hostage yet? How are you liking it?



I don't know are you joking or not  but that was pre-order for new album at the same time, it will be released in July.


----------



## mdeeRocks

myrtorp said:


> Alestorm made a parody of their crowdfunding video hahaha!



I'd fund it. At least they don't pretend that it's not cheese 

BTW, the "real" campaign just proves that people will buy all kind of cheese .... these days. Nothing personal, if you are a fan.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

I need that dog version of Mexico


----------



## Fred the Shred

^That Alestorm video...


----------



## TedEH

I really enjoy how well produced the Alestorm video is.  If they had released that same video without the dogs, I bet people would have thrown money at them.


----------



## Tisca

> ok i have been kinda silently following this (im pretty meh on wintersun) but after reading that quote from Jari, im pretty confused. He's dropping ibanez for a small boutique luthier, BUT hes not even playing guitar live? what's the point of getting some new endorsement, even if it is non exclusive, if he's not even playing publicly? this guy has a weird way of making sense of things for sure.



Neither party cares as long as the guitar is paid with crowd funding


----------



## Lorcan Ward

squids said:


> ok i have been kinda silently following this (im pretty meh on wintersun) but after reading that quote from Jari, im pretty confused. He's dropping ibanez for a small boutique luthier, BUT hes not even playing guitar live? what's the point of getting some new endorsement, even if it is non exclusive, if he's not even playing publicly? this guy has a weird way of making sense of things for sure.



Daemoness isn't anything like Ibanez when it comes to endorsing an artist so none of the rules or general guidelines would apply here. Dylan is building guitars for Jari because Dylan is a huge Wintersun fan who believes in his vision. Most builders just want to see/hear their guitars played and getting to hear an album that was recorded with a guitar you made is always one of the top things every builder has said to me. 

I also wouldn't hold out on Jari never playing guitar live again. That's not going to last.


----------



## Zalbu

Who cares if he's being endorsed by Daemoness? He still needs to play guitar and record albums, and what better time to try out new gear than when you don't have to have a bunch of gear prepped for live use?


----------



## Metropolis

The Forest Seasons will be released at 21st of June, and it's now available for pre-order. Can't really wait 

http://www.nuclearblast.de/en/shop/...ustom_keywords=wintersun&custom_artists=71013


----------



## sezna

Anyone else gonna get the digibook? Why is it called a "digibook"? It seems to just include bonus tracks.

Also, digging those shirt designs...not sure how I feel about pre-ordering a shirt, though.


----------



## Repner

Ordered the Digipak + Live album + Vinyl package. Funny how the €40 package seems to have more value than the €50 crowdfunded digital only release.


----------



## Gio18

Repner said:


> Ordered the Digipak + Live album + Vinyl package. Funny how the €40 package seems to have more value than the €50 crowdfunded digital only release.



tell me about it, I've been waiting for the physical stuff since they announced the forest seasons album.


----------



## squids

Lorcan Ward said:


> Daemoness isn't anything like Ibanez when it comes to endorsing an artist so none of the rules or general guidelines would apply here. Dylan is building guitars for Jari because Dylan is a huge Wintersun fan who believes in his vision. Most builders just want to see/hear their guitars played and getting to hear an album that was recorded with a guitar you made is always one of the top things every builder has said to me.
> 
> I also wouldn't hold out on Jari never playing guitar live again. That's not going to last.



that's cool i guess. again, not really into wintersun, but i saw dylan is also building for 1349, so it is cool to see a builder supporting artists that they want to...? not sure how to word that. 

also i can't help but see all the comments about jari being controlling and overly obsessive with the sound and taking forever to release music.....finnish michael keene?


----------



## p0ke

sezna said:


> Anyone else gonna get the digibook? Why is it called a "digibook"? It seems to just include bonus tracks.
> 
> Also, digging those shirt designs...not sure how I feel about pre-ordering a shirt, though.



I pre-ordered the digibook. It's called a digibook instead of digipack because the booklet is sort of integrated into the cover, like a book with CD slots. Also, it looks like it's gonna be similar to the Time I digibook, ie not the normal square CD cover size but like a DVD cover sideways. It looks really cool, but it's annoying because it doesn't fit into a normal CD shelf. At least I'm gonna have two of those big ones when this one comes


----------



## Metropolis

First released live video with new line-up. Seems to be working very well Timo Häkkinen in the drums, instead of Kai Hahto.


----------



## Blytheryn

Metropolis said:


> First released live video with new line-up. Seems to be working very well Timo Häkkinen in the drums, instead of Kai Hahto.




Jari has no idea what to do with himself... Hahaha


----------



## Lorcan Ward

That is so wrong. I can't see Jari sticking with vocals. 

In places he sounds better but sounds much worse in others.


----------



## feraledge

Blytheryn said:


> Jari has no idea what to do with himself... Hahaha



Holy hell, so much this!! He's got his Youtube hype-video demeanor and just full on awkwardness. I think everyone there is probably thinking the same thing, just hand him a guitar so he stops making his strange arm movements and being too excited. I think it's awesome to be into your own music, but it's not awesome to be your own band's biggest fan. Clearly.


----------



## Repner

I thought he might be like that on stage. Doesn't seem comfortable when he hasn't got something in his hands. I suppose I wouldn't feel comfortable either, but in that situation I would just keep the mic on the stand and hold it till I felt it was right.


----------



## sezna

can he at least air guitar or hold one of these?


----------



## prlgmnr

Repner said:


> I thought he might be like that on stage. Doesn't seem comfortable when he hasn't got something in his hands.



Can't he just grab his crotch like every other singer ever?


----------



## Repner

Or that XD


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

This is like watching James Hetfield with no guitar.


----------



## Unleash The Fury

Im not even excited about forest seasons anymore as i was. Ill tell you why. Jari fucked up by releasing too much teasing material too far away from release. He should be releasing it like right now leading up to the actual release. I understand he did that to raise money in time but the money is not even for this album. Ill eventually get it, but the hype has died down for me alot. He wanted people hyped up to preorder it where as i just wanted to be hypes up to by it at release.


----------



## iamaom

Hmm Jari is really strugging without a guitar in his hands, couldn't they give him one unplugged or with a dead switch so he could still do solos but focus on vocals only when he needed to?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

iamaom said:


> Hmm Jari is really strugging without a guitar in his hands, couldn't they give him one unplugged or with a dead switch so he could still do solos but focus on vocals only when he needed to?



I agree with the latter. Still play the guitar occasionally to add beef or for solos. 

Don't let the fucking Daemoness sig model waste away in the studio.


----------



## Metropolis

That was just how I was expecting him to perform  Of course it will be a little bit strange at first, but I don't see any over excitement or too much awkwardness in this performance. It's their first gig in two years and last song of it, wich might explain it. But let's see them in action at Tuska Open Air in couple of weeks.


----------



## p0ke

I've seen worse, his performance wasn't bad at all imo. And I thought he sounded just as good as on any other live clip I've seen.


----------



## Repner

Unleash The Fury said:


> Im not even excited about forest seasons anymore as i was. Ill tell you why. Jari fucked up by releasing too much teasing material too far away from release. He should be releasing it like right now leading up to the actual release. I understand he did that to raise money in time but the money is not even for this album. Ill eventually get it, but the hype has died down for me alot. He wanted people hyped up to preorder it where as i just wanted to be hypes up to by it at release.


I'm still looking forward to it, but I agree. I feel like I've already listened to most of the album.


----------



## p0ke

Repner said:


> I'm still looking forward to it, but I agree. I feel like I've already listened to most of the album.



Yeah, I agree too. I don't mind hearing all that material in advance, but they should've kept the hype going until it's out...


----------



## Unleash The Fury

They have not yet released even a single, correct? The album is almost out and they never released one song even? Or did i miss something?


----------



## Repner

Unleash The Fury said:


> They have not yet released even a single, correct? The album is almost out and they never released one song even? Or did i miss something?


They played one of the songs a few years ago live as a mystery song. As this album is made up of four long songs, any more than that and we'd have heard half the album. Probably not the best idea.


----------



## Blytheryn

Jari should buy a burger and a large fries with all that Gofundme cash, looks like he needs it :O


----------



## Unleash The Fury

Repner said:


> They played one of the songs a few years ago live as a mystery song. As this album is made up of four long songs, any more than that and we'd have heard half the album. Probably not the best idea.




Gotcha


----------



## Metropolis

Blytheryn said:


> Jari should buy a burger and a large fries with all that Gofundme cash, looks like he needs it :O



And he would lose that majestic lanky elf-like paleness? Hell no


----------



## Metropolis

Full show @Nummirock 2017 in 4k.


----------



## Element0s

Yeah he looks a little goofy without the guitar. Just go ham on a mic stand, dude. Come on.


----------



## Metropolis

Element0s said:


> Yeah he looks a little goofy without the guitar. Just go ham on a mic stand, dude. Come on.



He's using a mic stand when they play Sleeping Stars, performance matches the song better. I see that he wants to move more when performing more energetic songs.


----------



## p0ke

I don't know about you guys but I thought that was a pretty damned awesome performance  I had goosebumps pretty much throughout, and I was only watching it on youtube  

Also I wouldn't worry too much about Jari being a bit awkward without his guitar - I'm sure he'll get past that after a few shows.


----------



## Jarmake

So, little birds told me that the forest seasons has been leaked now... I'm not actually interested enough to be a dirty pirate, but seems that a lot of people are. I have read some very mixed reviews, some 10/10, 9/10 and some 4/10 and 5/10, so the album really seems to divide people.

Oh well, I'll find out when my pre ordering friend gets his copy... I chose not to support this weird charade that is wintersun, at least not before I hear the album and find out if it's worth buying.


----------



## Razerjack

Guilty of checking out the leaked version, have to say I'm mildly disappointed. The songs are all 12+ minute epics similar to the ones on Time I, but somewhat less catchy and with even less riffs. 
It's also safe to say that Jari has steered away from the shred (or even lead guitars for that matter, we get subtle string arrangements instead) now, as there is only one solo on the entire album. And I don't think the vocals and choirs added much to the songs, generally bland is how I would describe the album.

Don't mean to spoil it for anyone, just voicing my opinion...


----------



## p0ke

Razerjack said:


> ... generally bland is how I would describe the album ...



That's how I felt first too. But then I gave it another few spins and now I'm starting to like it. It's different but still good IMO. Nowhere near album of the year though, so still a bit of a disapointment.


----------



## Leviathus

One guitar solo?!?!?!?


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Time part 1 only had one guitar solo too. Maybe its Jari's strict limit now. 

Thats actually really disappointing since the guy writes solos that bring a song to a whole new level.


----------



## Jarmake

Why on earth there should be any more guitar solos? The band only has 3 incredibly talented guitarists after all! 

I guess there's no returning to the galore of effervescent guitar solos that was on the first album?


----------



## Element0s

Metropolis said:


> He's using a mic stand when they play Sleeping Stars, performance matches the song better. I see that he wants to move more when performing more energetic songs.


You can move around with a mic stand. It's fun.

I'll eventually check out the album when it makes it's way onto YouTube, but I'm expecting it to be pretty pompous and bloated as per usual.


----------



## Lorcan Ward




----------



## Metropolis

Going in the end of Awaken The Dark Slumber... so excited right now.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Still digesting it but my opinion so far is some amazing parts, some really boring parts. The main problem is the songs are too long, usually cause its a minute or two of the same melody or rambly synths, the melody at 6:00 - 9:00 in Summer is just overkill. The songs could easily be shortened to 7-8 minutes. The last few minutes of Spring and Summer are really good but it just takes so long to get to the payoff. Some of the best group vocals Jari has done yet, those parts are going to kill live. I'm getting a real Dimmu vibe from Autumn, its a good song but the length and mixing are letting it down a bit. Only one guitar solo again like Time 1, I'd hope he would have ripped a few more solos like the first album but they seem to be moving away from technical guitar sections in favour of more straightforward rhythms and leads to compliment the synths and vocals. Jari's vocals are incredible and I can understand why he wanted to focus on them live after listening to this album. 

Winter is perfection. The vocals, lyrics, synths, guitars. Perfect example of atmospheric metal.


----------



## twizza

I'm digging it, but something seems off with the drums. Are they programed/sampled? I'm really digging the isolated tracks for Time as well. Going to make a tone match IR, see how that goes.


----------



## Jarmake

Yup, Hahto didn't play those drums, they're programmed. Jukka didn't play those basses and Teemu didn't play any guitars either. It's all Jari, except for the choirs and low growls.

I'd say that the synths are bad on this album. Just... No. Time1 was 100x better than these. Songs are too long. Guitars sound thin, fuzzy and bad most of the time. The only actually pretty good thing seems to be on the last song and it's the moment when Jari sings something about washing away by the morning sun or something like that.

Jari desperately needs someone to mix his albums and the other band members' input on the writing process. He just seems to blindly put in every shitty idea while following his own "true vision"

Overall this album is just a lukewarm "meh" for me. Other bands have done it better before. Shame.


----------



## Metropolis

Lorcan Ward said:


> Winter is perfection. The vocals, lyrics, synths, guitars. Perfect example of atmospheric metal.


Vocals in Winter are just amazing, best clean vocals Jari has ever putted out. Otherwise for me album is not a let down. It turned just out how I imagined it to be... some people had really too high hopes for this. Weakest parts of the album are definetly sampled drum sounds and overplayed repetition in song structures.


----------



## KailM

Lol -- everyone is a top mixing/mastering engineer these days; everyone can do a better job and is a critic.

I had absolutely no expectations going into this album other than I was really happy to hear another Wintersun album. I didn't spend hardly any time listening to the teasers and whatnot that were available months ago.

Today, I listened to the full album whilst climbing my mountain bike 2000 vertical feet through an isolated old growth forest into some high, craggy peaks. Let's just say it was the perfect setting for this sort of album.

First up, the mix is fucking awesome. Maybe I'd mix it differently if I was the producer but hell, it sounds good. Don't know what people are hearing that makes them say "this mix sucks." Is it the best I've ever heard? No. But it doesn't matter.

I love the songwriting on "Awaken the Dark Slumber"--very cool stuff going on in there. "Autumn" is probably my favorite so far -- nice black metal feel there. Nice solo too. Actually, that brings up another point I wanted to make -- I don't care that there aren't more solos. There's plenty of lead work that is woven into each song -- perhaps a lot of people just haven't noticed it. There's definitely a brief solo on "Winter" though-- unlike some claims that "there is only one solo."

Last comment I'll make is that Jari delivered some amazing vocals here. Some of the lyrics and vocals on "Winter" are obviously quite personal and the delivery is masterful and emotional-- it really hit me in the chest a few times, as someone who has also experienced real loss at one point in my life.

Anyhow-- it's a great album and I don't see any reason to complain about it. Best ever? No, but I'll take it, and I'll buy the next Wintersun album too.


----------



## MikeH

You can be critical of something without being an expert in it. I really suck at mixing, and recording in general, but I can tell when someone else's mix sounds like shit, too. (Not to say this sounds like shit, but you get my point)


----------



## ArtHam

After his claim that this mix can easily sit with Metallica's Black Album and Periphery albums and Andy Sneap mixes (he said so in the forest documentary part 4) I'm throwing my hat in the 'no, it definitely can not' camp.

Album is ok though I firmly believe it should have been a killer EP. All of the songs could easily lose 50% of their playing time and be a lot better for it. The ending of Eternal darkness just comes off as a gross error. Like it was exported wrong. If it was intentional I think it was a dumb idea.For better or worse it's another Jari solo album. The music rambles just like his Facebook posts.

Some killer, lots of filler.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

^Yep its meant to end that way since the song is about death so its a sudden end. Its caused quite a lot of confusion. 



Jarmake said:


> Jari desperately needs someone to mix his albums and the other band members' input on the writing process. He just seems to blindly put in every shitty idea while following his own "true vision"



I really don't like when bands or a single artist produce, mix and sometimes master their own records. They aren't critical enough of their songs and mixing so you can end up with a lot of filler and a mix that doesn't do the songs justice. 



KailM said:


> Lol -- everyone is a top mixing/mastering engineer these days; everyone can do a better job and is a critic.



You don't need to be a chef to say your food doesn't taste nice. Autumn takes huge influence from Dimmu Borgir's Abrahadabra but the mixing is nowhere near as clear and cutting. Thats why Dimmu got Andy Sneap and Russ Russell to help out. When you are working with 100+ tracks you need to put your hands up and call in the big guns. Now bands like Dimmu and Nightwish are working with several €100K budgets which isn't a remotely fair comparison to put The Forest Seasons against but as a listener even with next to no mixing knowledge you can still judge it that way.


----------



## Jarmake

Maybe Jari should postpone his mad visions for several hundred vst instruments (or actual orchestrations) per track to the time (no pun intended), when he actually has the money and the people to pull it off?

That's what Holopainen from nightwish did. There's a big difference between the few early records with low budget and these new big ass orchestrated mastodont recordings.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Since when do you need to be a professional engineer to consider a mix bad or not?


----------



## works0fheart

KailM said:


> Lol -- everyone is a top mixing/mastering engineer these days; everyone can do a better job and is a critic.



Couldn't even continue reading your post after that ignorant statement. People need to learn that you don't need to be a guitarist, bassist, drummer, mixing engineer, or anything along those lines for something to sound bad. Everyone has a right to be a critic regardless of what their background is. If something sounds bad to them, let them call it out. Last I checked it doesn't take a fucking degree in something to determine that a piece of music sounds bad to your ears. Honestly, that statement is so damned pretentious it hurts my brain to even wrap my head around the thought process behind it.

If you enjoy the album, good on you. I'm not going to knock your opinion over it, but don't criticize other people either.


----------



## KailM

works0fheart said:


> Couldn't even continue reading your post after that ignorant statement. People need to learn that you don't need to be a guitarist, bassist, drummer, mixing engineer, or anything along those lines for something to sound bad. Everyone has a right to be a critic regardless of what their background is. If something sounds bad to them, let them call it out. Last I checked it doesn't take a fucking degree in something to determine that a piece of music sounds bad to your ears. Honestly, that statement is so damned pretentious it hurts my brain to even wrap my head around the thought process behind it.
> 
> If you enjoy the album, good on you. I'm not going to knock your opinion over it, but don't criticize other people either.



I did not personally criticize anyone in my earlier post. You should also look up the word "pretentious." I don't think it means what you think it means.

Of course people don't need to be "experts" to know if something is artistically suitable for them or not. It's totally subjective. I've just read a lot of posts lately trashing this album (not just here), and I couldn't let it go. What is so bad about the mix? Really, I want to know. Because I heard everything quite clearly. I've heard some shitty production in my day -- Forest Seasons ain't it. Furthermore, I've heard some albums that had really shitty production that were still amazing albums (which is a whole different discussion.)

I think what it boils down to is Jari set himself up for this by hyping the album so much. It almost didn't matter how the album turned out -- people were bound to bash it regardless. He should probably just do a little less talking and just release his music -- but I'm not him.

The point I was trying to make is -- why can't people just say "meh, the album wasn't for me" and go on with their lives? No, instead, they've got to dissect it and tear it apart -- the internet is famous for that. I don't even care that much; Wintersun isn't even in my top 10 favorite bands. I just don't like to see any artists get raked over the coals for putting out an honest effort.


----------



## Jarmake

Why can't people just say "yup, I like this album" and go on with their lives? No, instead, they've got to dissect it and praise it to high heavens -- the internet is famous for that.

Because people want to talk about their feelings for the album, don't you think? Why should negative feedback be left out? I really don't get why it's so bad to voice one's opinion, even if it's a negative one...

Also, why did all those videos contain other band members telling about the album and hyping it up, when in reality the only guy who plays on it is Jari? Sure, there's a choir and low growls from Jukka, but everything else is Jari.


----------



## oracles

KailM said:


> The point I was trying to make is -- why can't people just say "meh, the album wasn't for me" and go on with their lives? No, instead, they've got to dissect it and tear it apart -- the internet is famous for that. I don't even care that much; Wintersun isn't even in my top 10 favorite bands. I just don't like to see any artists get raked over the coals for putting out an honest effort.



Because these people are paying consumers of a product they purchased, in a thread dedicated to exactly that, discussion. Not all feedback on anything is going to be 100% positive, negative feedback is equally as important when something doesn't meet expectations. After all the Wintersun drama, of course people were going to discuss it, and the record, and it's their right to do so as people who paid for the end product.


----------



## Malkav

Now that this album is out where the hell does one find the full version of this version of winter?


----------



## ArtHam

It came with the package. It's the acoustic song Jari kept talking about.


----------



## works0fheart

KailM said:


> I did not personally criticize anyone in my earlier post. You should also look up the word "pretentious." I don't think it means what you think it means.



Actually, I think it does, but thanks for playing.
Maybe you should do a quick google search of the word or learn some sentence comprehension. I'll paraphrase the impression you gave me: "You people aren't mixing engineers therefore how can you determine it's a bad mix? It sounds good to my ears, you guys just aren't as educated in what a good mix is"

Seems about right to me. Feel free to correct me in whatever works to your advantage though.

And you didn't personally criticize anyone because there were upwards of 10+ people who disagree with you so there's that.



KailM said:


> Of course people don't need to be "experts" to know if something is artistically suitable for them or not. It's totally subjective. I've just read a lot of posts lately trashing this album (not just here), _*and I couldn't let it go.*_ What is so bad about the mix? Really, I want to know. Because I heard everything quite clearly. I've heard some shitty production in my day -- Forest Seasons ain't it. Furthermore, I've heard some albums that had really shitty production that were still amazing albums (which is a whole different discussion.)



As I said before, good for you for liking the album. In all honesty, I'm not siding with anyone here about it sounding shitty because I could really care less about listening to it at this point. The clips and so on just weren't interesting to me, but that's another topic. That part I left in bold there though is my point. Who cares if they don't like it? Hell, they probably are wrong about the mix, but don't assume that anyone who thinks it's bad isn't in a position to judge it because they aren't mixing/mastering engineers.

In all honesty, production isn't even all that important to me. I agree with you, there are a lot of amazing albums out there with awful production and some awful albums with great production, but were someone to criticize something based on those things I couldn't really hold either against them.



KailM said:


> I think what it boils down to is Jari set himself up for this by hyping the album so much. It almost didn't matter how the album turned out -- people were bound to bash it regardless. He should probably just do a little less talking and just release his music -- but I'm not him.



Amen to that. His videos of himself talking about how "epic" the album is are up there with some of the most cringe-inducing things I've ever seen.



KailM said:


> The point I was trying to make is -- why can't people just say "meh, the album wasn't for me" and go on with their lives? No, instead, they've got to dissect it and tear it apart -- the internet is famous for that. I don't even care that much; Wintersun isn't even in my top 10 favorite bands. I just don't like to see any artists get raked over the coals for putting out an honest effort.



This is how it is though. While I don't care for seeing artists get shit on either, it's just the industry now days. People on the internet are way more honest with their opinions. That's just how it is now. It's in everyone's best interest to not think too much into it.


----------



## MattThePenguin

The vocals are obnoxiously loud and the drums sound like they were written by someone in junior high. People need to start letting their drummers BE DRUMMERS. It's the most annoying thing when an established band like this looks over something so critical to the sound of their music. 

There's a fan mix that turned the vocals down and brought the guitars/bass up a tad bit and I enjoyed that waaaay more. 

I hate that my posts lately have been these nerdy mix critiques but like COME ON lol it's so distracting when something is this messed up. I jam old school death metal and black metal albums all of the time, some of those sounded kinda gross, but it none of them had a glaring issue that detracted from the sound or the mood. 

Idk man, I just like to be immersed in the music. It's hard when something in particular is sooo much louder than everything else.


----------



## KailM

works0fheart said:


> Actually, I think it does, but thanks for playing.
> Maybe you should do a quick google search of the word or learn some sentence comprehension. *I'll paraphrase the impression you gave me: "You people aren't mixing engineers therefore how can you determine it's a bad mix? It sounds good to my ears, you guys just aren't as educated in what a good mix is"*
> 
> Seems about right to me. Feel free to correct me in whatever works to your advantage though.
> 
> And you didn't personally criticize anyone because there were upwards of 10+ people who disagree with you so there's that.



Well, it was never my intention to sound pretentious at all. The impression I gave you was completely unintended, and obviously stirred up a lot of emotion I wasn't prepared to deal with.

When I made that statement, it was more or less a commentary on just how nit-picky metalheads have become. It seems nothing is ever good enough. And on the other hand, I've read reviews of some music belittling it for having TOO polished production. 

Believe me, I am the LAST person that considers himself a mixing/mastering expert. I mean, I know what _terrible_ production sounds like, and I was honestly baffled to read comments that Forest Seasons doesn't have a good mix. I guess when I listen to music, as long as the sound quality is passable, it's really the strength of the songwriting that determines whether I like it or not. I think this album has far beyond 'passable' production, but that's just my opinion. It's certainly better than anything I could pull off myself.

Anyway, I'm not interested in battling with anyone over this, and it seems we agree on some points. As it stands, I've listened to the album 4 or 5 times now and still find it very good. I'm sorry others can't enjoy it the same, but that's why, you know, we have _opinions_. Cheers.


----------



## works0fheart

Likewise, sorry for lashing out at you. For whatever reason your statement struck a nerve when it shouldn't have.


----------



## TedEH

I listened to the two tracks they've put up on youtube, and.... they're kinda boring IMO. Definitely didn't live up to the ridiculous hype. Not worth all the nonsense that led up to it. Pretty much have lost any interest in listening to the rest of the album or continuing to follow the band outside of maybe observing the drama from a distance.


----------



## Dayn

I did the Indiegogo thing and got the downloads, but I've only listened to Wintersun 2.0 and Time 1.5.

I liked Wintersun 2.0. Very good.

Time 1.5? I liked the first half. I liked the combining of Darkness & Frost with Time, but didn't like the end being cut off of Time. I thought the original, soft, lengthier ending suited the album a lot more.


----------



## Unleash The Fury

Heard it yesterday. The only song i found to be a tad boring was Winter Lonliness. Everything else was awesome, as a concept album. I would appreciate Jari going back to the 5-8 minute songs though. 

Hopefully he put 100% into the forest seasons, and is not holding back for Time ll. Also i think the production overall sounds better than Time


----------



## Xiphos68

Thank goodness I didn't pre-order this album...

Thoroughly disappointed from what I've heard... 
Not to mention TIME: Part 2 is what we want. There was nothing wrong with Time: Part 1 in terms of production. 
So I don't get what the problem is from everything he has mentioned.


----------



## Unleash The Fury

Am i the only one who thinks that eternal darkness and loniness should change places? 

Eternal Darkaness (autumn) is the darkest piece ive ever heard from Wintersun, and i think that should have been called Winter and should have closed the album.


----------



## Metropolis

Unleash The Fury said:


> Am i the only one who thinks that eternal darkness and loniness should change places?
> 
> Eternal Darkaness (autumn) is the darkest piece ive ever heard from Wintersun, and i think that should have been called Winter and should have closed the album.



It's called Eternal Darkness, because autumn is so damn dark here in southern Finland  Suddenly death comes at the end of the song, and Loneliness is obviously about someone traveling to afterlife / death of nature wich refers to Winter. And that's the ending of this cycle we call four seasons, or in this case Forest Seasons.


----------



## Unleash The Fury

Metropolis said:


> It's called Eternal Darkness, because autumn is so damn dark here in southern Finland  Suddenly death comes at the end of the song, and Loneliness is obviously about someone traveling to afterlife / death of nature wich refers to Winter. And that's the ending of this cycle we call four seasons, or in this case Forest Seasons.



Ok let me rephrase what i meant. From a musical stand point, i think the song called eternal darkness should have been the last on the album. Lol


----------



## p0ke

Unleash The Fury said:


> Ok let me rephrase what i meant. From a musical stand point, i think the song called eternal darkness should have been the last on the album. Lol



Like Metropolis said, it is as it is because here in Finland the autumn is usually really dark. Winter is quite dark too and days are really short, but if there's snow it makes everything a fair bit lighter. And yeah, I kinda get what you mean there, but then the seasons would've been mixed up  To put Eternal Darkness last, he would've had to start with Loneliness, which wouldn't have worked at all.

Besides, autumn is the time when nature prepares for the winter (dies) and in the winter it's just sleeping, so I think the order of the songs feels right as it is. I guess it can be a bit hard to relate if you live in a place where winter is similar to rainy summer days here though


----------



## TheShreddinHand

Unleash The Fury said:


> Heard it yesterday. The only song i found to be a tad boring was Winter Lonliness. Everything else was awesome, as a concept album. I would appreciate Jari going back to the 5-8 minute songs though.



Pretty much this for me too. I dig the album and really enjoy the first 3 songs (although the guitar solo really doesn't seem to fit in autumn). Winter is a tad too long but otherwise, solid album for me.


----------



## Element0s

I listened to the songs a couple times and I'm not really impressed. A couple parts here and there that I liked (the acoustic intro to Summer was probably my favorite bit and lots of the clean singing) but overall I find it pretty bland and boring. Honestly it seems like a con-artist move to me. It's basically a Jari solo album that he rushed out with practically zero input or playing from his exceptionally talented bandmates in order to run his crowdfunding. 

Jari was a large influence on my when his material was limited to the first two Ensiferum albums and the Wintersun debut, but the bloated stuff he's pushing out now doesn't do too much for me.


----------



## p0ke

I just want to add: I was quite unimpressed with the album myself at first. But then I gave it a few spins and it started to open up more, and now I really like it. So if anyone here feels the same I suggest giving another chance, it's an album with a lot of details you likely won't be able to process at the first listen  That said, I wouldn't mind if Jari made a some more self titled album -style songs, because that album is pretty much impossible to beat.


----------



## Unleash The Fury

I agree. Its more of an easy listening, melodic theme-type album. Its not very riff and lead heavy, but its definitly rides out specific moods and atmospheres the endure the length of the movements. To me they are more like movements rather than songs.

All that being said, i still enjoy the first album the most. I think its great that this concept album came out this way in Jaris vision, but now lets get back to making songs between 3-7 minutes or so; Beyond the dark sun is so awesome and its under 3 minutes.


----------



## Jarmake

The more I listen to the forest seasons the less I like it. Meh. Not going to give my money to wintersun anymore. It's sad actually, I really liked the first one and time 1 was decent too.


----------



## Dyingsea

I think on the first album Jari had something to prove. He just left Ensiferum for this solo project and just let it rip. It seemed to flow naturally. After that it became more and more self absorbed in terms of production, length, complaining etc. and just wasnt quite the same IMO. Thats being said I do like Time 1 for the most part.


----------



## works0fheart

I think you nailed it actually. That first album definitely feels a lot more ambitious than anything else I've heard from him since.


----------



## StrmRidr

Regardless of all the drama surrounding Wintersun, I actually like Forest Seasons. Also, for those of you who haven't heard it yet, the acoustic version of Loneliness (Winter) is awesome.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

I'm 100% behind Jari ditching guitar to concentrate on singing after watching this performance. Its awesome to finally see Teemu playing to his full potential too, he is nailing those solos like he wrote them.


----------



## twizza

Teemu solid AF. Well all of them actually. But Teemu.

26:38 for a good Awkward Jari gif moment.

Would have liked to see Kai too. He has a certain style I like.


----------



## primitiverebelworld

I agree with Lorcan - that performance at Summer Breeze was quite special to watch! It must have been great to be there. I think Wintersun is back for good because The Forest Season kicks butt musically and shows what this band has been all about from the beginning. It is certainly not an easy listen and needs proper mood and athmosphere to enjoy it. My opinion is this also: the first impression stays no matter what comes later. If I had given it the first listen at work during lunchbreak shewing my tortilla I would not had liked it probably. Too long and too nonshreddy. Fortunately Summer Breeze pro footage was the first time I experienced new songs when I had time and mood for it and Teemed it awsome! ... The opening "spring" is an epic anthem!


----------



## Metropolis

Hi guys, Metropolis here!

Wintersun is starting their North American tour tomorrow in Philadelphia, PA, Theatre of Living Arts. Are any of you sevenstringers going to see them? Also this time they are teasing us with a new song, which will be played in that tour.


----------



## KailM

Metropolis said:


> Hi guys, Metropolis here!
> 
> Wintersun is starting their North American tour tomorrow in Philadelphia, PA, Theatre of Living Arts. Are any of you sevenstringers going to see them? Also this time they are teasing us with a new song, which will be played in that tour.




I wish I could go, but it's an 8 1/2 hour drive to the nearest venue. I should probably find a way to make it happen...


----------



## Metropolis

KailM said:


> I wish I could go, but it's an 8 1/2 hour drive to the nearest venue. I should probably find a way to make it happen...



Damn those distances in your side of the earth... can you take a plane to fly there?


----------



## Lorcan Ward

I got so excited seeing the new song part in the title. Hopefully they release it after the tour.


----------



## ArtDecade

If they want to wait ten years before releasing albums, they can wait ten more years before I'll go to a show.


----------



## Metropolis

ArtDecade said:


> If they want to wait ten years before releasing albums, they can wait ten more years before I'll go to a show.



Ten years? Three albums were released in 2004, 2012 and 2017 

I hope to see decent quality live recording from the new song. Even if it's recorded with phone or just digital camera without a mic.


----------



## fantom

Metropolis said:


> Ten years? Three albums were released in 2004, 2012 and 2017



To be fair, they released one album in 2004, half an album in 2012 (still missing the other half 6 years later), and an EP as a workaround to crowdfund a studio. So 1 full length in 14 years...

I am personally split on going. I went back in 2013 and I doubt they have much more new material to play despite being excellent live.


----------



## Metropolis

fantom said:


> To be fair, they released one album in 2004, half an album in 2012 (still missing the other half 6 years later), and an EP as a workaround to crowdfund a studio. So 1 full length in 14 years...
> 
> I am personally split on going. I went back in 2013 and I doubt they have much more new material to play despite being excellent live.



I admit that Time I is barely a full album with it's 38 minute length, but The Forest Seasons is because it's 54 minutes. Could be damn long EP... btw band themselves call it intermediate work or something like that, because it's released between building the studio and past era of Wintersun, and it's not polished to the max production wise. Also actually the debut clocks about same as The Forest Seasons, structure of an album is just way different.

From this new era of band I've seen Wintersun live three times in the past one and a half years, and they've been excellent every time. Best of those times was "by request" gig at local club in Helsinki, everything was just right. Highly recommend to go and see them, it's interesting to see Jari without guitar.


----------



## fantom

Time 1 had 3 songs and 2 filler tracks for ambience. Forest seasons is long, yes, but the songs need self-edit. They are extremely repetitive and drag out. If a producer worked with them, the album would barely touch 30 minutes. Either way, I think claiming 10 years to release material is very accurate


----------



## chopeth

I'm quiting going to orchestal type of bands, I saw Wintersun in their last gig and I could barely recognize the songs. There is a big ball of sound which makes me not enjoy the concert as I should. Same happen with Devin Townsend.


----------



## Sogradde

Metropolis said:


>



How does Sarah Longfield fit into this and why do the WIntersun guys always make these cringy half-assed gestures?


----------



## Metropolis

Sogradde said:


> How does Sarah Longfield fit into this and why do the WIntersun guys always make these cringy half-assed gestures?



I dunno... not at all. Even NeObliviscaris is a little bit weird match for touring with them. Metal community is full of cringy and self ironic things, sometimes those kind of gestures belong into it


----------



## p0ke

Metropolis said:


> Metal community is full of cringy and self ironic things, sometimes those kind of gestures belong into it



Yes but come on  Jari especially is just plain annoying to watch. 

Regarding their live stuff, I really think they should get a keyboard player. Since a lot of their later material is more or less based on the orchestrations rather than the riffs, it feels like cheating to me to play all of those from backing tracks. I mean, I get that it's impossible to play it all without a full orchestra or something, but they could have a keyboard player playing the main things and then when some extra layers are needed, use backing tracks for just those instead of EVERYTHING  My preference would of course be that they'd get rid of all the backing tracks and just play the songs in a more minimal format - it'd sound close enough anyway, IMO.


----------



## Metropolis

p0ke said:


> Yes but come on  Jari especially is just plain annoying to watch.
> 
> Regarding their live stuff, I really think they should get a keyboard player. Since a lot of their later material is more or less based on the orchestrations rather than the riffs, it feels like cheating to me to play all of those from backing tracks. I mean, I get that it's impossible to play it all without a full orchestra or something, but they could have a keyboard player playing the main things and then when some extra layers are needed, use backing tracks for just those instead of EVERYTHING  My preference would of course be that they'd get rid of all the backing tracks and just play the songs in a more minimal format - it'd sound close enough anyway, IMO.



Jari was actually searching for a keyboard player for Wintersun before the first album came out. It could have been relevant at that time, but nowadays not so. There is so much going on in those backing tracks, that they make having a keyboard player really pointless. Songs wouldn't sound nowhere the same without all the little things happening in there, even if it would be a live situation where everything is more or less same big wall of sound. Keyboard players are good for music when there is actual emphasis for playing them, Wintersun doesn't really have that in my opinion. You can't even play those with keyboards, because they're made with vst-samples including tons of automation, and not having them would really neuter everything.

Just for example.


----------



## brector

Metropolis said:


> Jari was actually searching for a keyboard player for Wintersun before the first album came out. It could have been relevant at that time, but nowadays not so. There is so much going on in those backing tracks, that they make having a keyboard player really pointless. Songs wouldn't sound nowhere the same without all the little things happening in there, even if it would be a live situation where everything is more or less same big wall of sound. Keyboard players are good for music when there is actual emphasis for playing them, Wintersun doesn't really have that in my opinion. You can't even play those with keyboards, because they're made with vst-samples including tons of automation, and not having them would really neuter everything.
> 
> Just for example.



I didn't listen to that whole track, but I don't think it would be hard for a good keyboardist to pull most of that off


----------



## GunpointMetal

Sogradde said:


> How does Sarah Longfield fit into this and why do the WIntersun guys always make these cringy half-assed gestures?


I'm guessing they all have overlapping management on some level. And yeah, Jari especially is the most obnoxious person to watch talk about ANYTHING. That video about the artwork for the last album was so bad, I watched the whole thing because I thought it was joke. *clenches fist awkwardly with arm fully extended* "and we got the money shot"


----------



## Metropolis

brector said:


> I didn't listen to that whole track, but I don't think it would be hard for a good keyboardist to pull most of that off



In all seriousness songs in Time I have huge amount of synth & orchestration tracks, it wouldn't sound even near the same. Bands that have keyboard player have often backingtracks because of it. For the first album most of synths were played by Jari himself.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Sarah does seem out of place on that bill but congrats to her for getting a gig like that. I've found a different style opening act can work a lot better at building up the audience instead of having every band the same genre. 4 djent bands all similar style supported Loomis one time I saw him and it was a snoozefest. If any of you guys haven't seen Ne Obliviscaris before you are in for a treat! 



chopeth said:


> I'm quiting going to orchestal type of bands, I saw Wintersun in their last gig and I could barely recognize the songs. There is a big ball of sound which makes me not enjoy the concert as I should. Same happen with Devin Townsend.



At festivals Wintersun sound amazing but when I saw them years later in a small club it was just a wall of noise. Having such layered backing tracks running through the PA with guitars, bass, vocals and drums just ends up in mud. Nightwish mix live keyboards with backing tracks quite well but I don't feel it would benefit Wintersun at all live.


----------



## Chiba666

Wintersun were pretty good at Wacken. Nighwish were bloody good, not a bad show in the 4 times Ive seen them.


----------



## Metropolis

Lorcan Ward said:


> At festivals Wintersun sound amazing but when I saw them years later in a small club it was just a wall of noise. Having such layered backing tracks running through the PA with guitars, bass, vocals and drums just ends up in mud. Nightwish mix live keyboards with backing tracks quite well but I don't feel it would benefit Wintersun at all live.



It really depends, at last festival gig I saw it was quite windy and we were positioned at right side of the first 4-6 rows in the audience. Sound was very unbalanced and muddy, just a one big ball of sound. I could hear synths and all that stuff with drums, vocals and bass but guitars were too much buried under all the others. The thing is, they don't have very much stage volume and you have to be positioned in somewhere you can hear both sides of the pa. They sound much better in mid-sized clubs, where pa-system is decent sized and room acoustics aren't worse possible. Also agree the fact that Nightwish has more emphasis to keyboard playing and it fits to their sound and arrangements obviously much better.


----------



## Metropolis

One of the first phone quality clips from the new song. I love the chaotic neoclassical feel it has.


----------



## Zalbu

Tuomas in Nightwish created the band and is a keyboard player and he does pretty much all the songwriting, the creative vision and lately even the production of the albums by himself, so it's not really a surprise that they can implement keyboards in their live shows as well as they do.

Jari doesn't really seem like the type of guy who would be content with having to water down the music by letting a keyboard player handle it live with how intricate the orchestral arrangements on Wintersun songs are.


----------



## KailM

Metropolis said:


> One of the first phone quality clips from the new song. I love the chaotic neoclassical feel it has.


----------



## Vyn

Metropolis said:


> One of the first phone quality clips from the new song. I love the chaotic neoclassical feel it has.




So it was Storm. Mind you, having a backing track with rain in it throughout the whole YouTube teaser was kind of a giveaway xD


----------



## Metropolis

Some incredibly mad Wintersun fans are again outraged all over the internet because of their Patreon site launch.
https://www.patreon.com/wintersun

You don't have to buy anything and they are again clearly saying what band is offering in exhange of 10€/month membership on their site.

At the same time claiming all sorts of things (again) where all the money from previous crowdfunding went, at least 25-30% from 464 330€ went to taxes and Indiegogo. Part of it went probably in touring for two years and salaries of their team and band. Maybe somwhere else, who cares because they are not responsible to state it, but hopefully for some expenses which include in running bands like this.

Suddenly these assholes have forgotten about the situation in world right now along with Wintersun's creative break from touring. Musicians have to eat too. Again stupidity of some folks keeps amazing me and at the same time not really. Why are people so hesitated about everything nowadays and can't see the bigger picture? If someone wants to be a member of their patreon, that's more than okay for me, just don't ruin it from everyone. All that negativity is just unneccessary. It's like these people are being force fed this whole thing and they are crying about it.

_"Nobody is forced to join our Patreon. It is extra content and a community. In the crowdfunding we sold a product and that money is going back to producing Wintersun albums. Building the Wintersun Headquarters is not yet possible, because there was also lot of expenses and taxes, but I am building a temporary "semi-studio" right now, so I can work more efficiently. The 3-part crowdfunding still remains the same."

-Jari_

-I didn't buy anything / rant.


----------



## GunpointMetal

lol "Wintersun Headquarters"..... is he still waiting to buy five Mac Pros to run all of his orchestral VSTs?


----------



## Metropolis

GunpointMetal said:


> lol "Wintersun Headquarters"..... is he still waiting to buy five Mac Pros to run all of his orchestral VSTs?



Of course... and at least five rooms for building saunas for each band member


----------



## KailM

It's hard to take this band seriously anymore. I mean, I have a lot of respect for the music they've _actually put out_, but shit, it doesn't take that much to do a proper album these days. Didn't Jari do Forest Seasons all by himself, basically? If he/the band has more material, couldn't they just, you know, like, record it and send it off to an engineer?


----------



## StrmRidr

KailM said:


> It's hard to take this band seriously anymore. I mean, I have a lot of respect for the music they've _actually put out_, but shit, it doesn't take that much to do a proper album these days. Didn't Jari do Forest Seasons all by himself, basically? If he/the band has more material, couldn't they just, you know, like, record it and send it off to an engineer?


Seriously, lots of bands out there putting quality stuff out with very limited resources. Jari make it sounds like he needs NASA equipment to produce his music.


----------



## Metropolis

KailM said:


> It's hard to take this band seriously anymore. I mean, I have a lot of respect for the music they've _actually put out_, but shit, it doesn't take that much to do a proper album these days. Didn't Jari do Forest Seasons all by himself, basically? If he/the band has more material, couldn't they just, you know, like, record it and send it off to an engineer?



Nah... Jari is the nerdy mad scientist future planning type who wants to have much as possible control in the process of making music. That's how I would describe recent years of Wintersun. He is the engineer, which makes it sort of interesting but frustrating. Maybe he's aiming into some sort of otherworldly epicness or something... hah. Jari said in the comments of his own facebook page that Time II has been recorded for a long time now, obviously just recorded.

I'm pretty sure he has quite hi-end equipment right now, but semi-studio is still in his flat apartment (dude lives 10 kilometers/6.25 miles away from me) which is not a hi-end space for this process. And wanting to own something to do this all by yourself... we know where it leads, big dreams with crowdfundings, lots of money, own world class studio and hopefully couple albums of epicness... at least. Who knows what happens after that.


----------



## TedEH

Metropolis said:


> who wants to have much as possible control in the process of making music.


I think most musicians want that on some level, but...



Metropolis said:


> we know where it leads


Exactly. To not very much. Ambition has zero value if you don't do anything with it. You don't need a world class studio to realize an ambitious music project.



Metropolis said:


> He is the engineer


From what I understand, that's the problem: He's NOT an engineer. He's just a guy with some ambitious ideas. But ideas aren't worth anything without the execution.


----------



## ArtDecade

Average band with above average expectations.


----------



## Metropolis

TedEH said:


> I think most musicians want that on some level, but...
> 
> 
> Exactly. To not very much. Ambition has zero value if you don't do anything with it. You don't need a world class studio to realize an ambitious music project.
> 
> 
> From what I understand, that's the problem: He's NOT an engineer. He's just a guy with some ambitious ideas. But ideas aren't worth anything without the execution.



This is on the level that others don't understand, only the man himself. I don't remember if it was some sort of interview or some of Jari's own videos, but he has said that really making ideas to reality in best possible way with others is difficult. Which is total perfectionism towards the process, and feels like somekind of genious at work type of thing. He definetly likes to work alone.

Most of us would not need own studio, but I think this is again on the another level. At least not at this point when biggest plans are just plans without execution.


----------



## Dayn

As a massive Wintersun fan, the worst thing about Wintersun are the fans. They owe us nothing. I do my best to avoid discussion online for this very reason.

I am also aware of the irony in a fan posting online to deride fans posting online, so don't bother pointing that out.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

The problem with patreon is it starts to dry up when you aren’t sharing worthwhile content. I can’t see people paying 10/e every month for the occasional live video lasting.

You need to treat modern subscription services as a way of getting a planned product to your fans like protest the hero’s Pacific myth and not as musician welfare because you want money but don’t have a product to sell.


----------



## TedEH

Metropolis said:


> This is on the level that others don't understand


If I told you that I had THE BEST ideas but I can't share them with you because they're _on another level_ and _you wouldn't understand them_, would you believe me too? Or would you feel like I was trying get credit for the idea of work, without actually doing the work?

Again - ideas, ambition, etc. - mean absolutely zero until they produce something. If your ideas are that brilliant, you should be able to produce them anywhere.

I've heard all the material Wintersun has put out so far. Some of it is very good, sure. But he's not a musical genius, beyond the understanding of us mere mortals. Not by a long shot. IMO the best work he's done was with Ensiferum. If he really does have a bunch of already-recorded material that just needs to be properly mixed and polished up, then there are a ton of _actually_ very good engineers out there that could get the job done if he was willing to accept the help.


----------



## Metropolis

Lorcan Ward said:


> The problem with patreon is it starts to dry up when you aren’t sharing worthwhile content. I can’t see people paying 10/e every month for the occasional live video lasting.
> 
> You need to treat modern subscription services as a way of getting a planned product to your fans like protest the hero’s Pacific myth and not as musician welfare because you want money but don’t have a product to sell.



There is tons of youtubers who use Patreon for "exclusive content". I don't see any difference here, and their live videos are said to be happen at least two times a month. All the other content which include pictures and videos seem to be planned carefully and gathered for this kind of use. Picture or video is still a product made for entertainment. They already have over two hundred patrons, which is a nice little source of income.


----------



## eaeolian

Zalbu said:


> And besides, can NB even demand to take money from a potential fundraiser? Can't Jari just collect money without mentioning Wintersun and put that money towards a studio?



I'm sure he owes NB for previous advances, so the answer is yes.

In other news, the music business sucks, but he signed the contract. While I am somewhat sympathetic to his plight, listen to your lawyers when they explain contracts.


----------



## Necris

Jari is a 100% just a grifter with a guitar.
He seems to genuinely believe that his ambitions alone both necessitate and entitle him to things that the vast majority of bands function without regardless of whether or not he actually produces anything. The whole "modern technology/my living arrangement/my label/etc. aren't adequate for the creation of the next Wintersun album" shtick is 100% just marketing to convince people he's some sort of once-in-a-lifetime musical genius and being able to throw money his way is a privilege.

Devin Townsend has put out at least 17 albums with his various projects since 2004, many of those albums are arguably as ambitious as anything Jari has done; Jari has produced 2 and seems to be finding new reasons he can't release a third.


----------



## GunpointMetal

But dude, its not art if it doesn't take a WHOLE FUCKING YEAR TO GET PROMO PICS BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO BE TAKEN IN PARTICULAR SEASONS.


----------



## Metropolis

GunpointMetal said:


> But dude, its not art if it doesn't take a WHOLE FUCKING YEAR TO GET PROMO PICS BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO BE TAKEN IN PARTICULAR SEASONS.



Actually it took 9 months to write, record, mix & master The Forest Seasons. They took pictures probably meanwhile, which was between 2015-2016.

Jari should just stop explaining himself to people he owes nothing. No one knows what he really thinks about himself and criticizing how music or creative content should be delivered just seems so stupid, and it's never ending circle by these naysayers. Some musicians put out lots of stuff, for some bands it takes almost 15 years to make a new album, some are never going to get there and meet results or expectacions.

Still it's better than being quiet I guess... in some level I kind of enjoy this kind of drama right now.


----------



## Esp Griffyn

I've got no dog in this fight (campy power metal isn't my thing) but I have been following this saga with much amusement. I can't believe they've started a Patreon. Ten dollars a month to be part of a "community", what a deal.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Metropolis said:


> There is tons of youtubers who use Patreon for "exclusive content". I don't see any difference here, and their live videos are said to be happen at least two times a month.



Many of which find their patreon drops off once they aren’t pushing constant worthwhile content. It’s easy to get initial patreons, hard work to keep them and near impossible to get them back. There’s a big difference between say protest the hero giving out new songs, instrumentals, tabs, studio videos etc to a live video once or twice a month. One of those will keep people hooked but the other will start to lose people. I’ve seen it countless times 

Don’t get me wrong I love Wintersun. Even if we’ve only gotten 1 full album and 2 half albums in the 20+ years Jari has been working on Wintersun I really look forward to any future music.


----------



## Metropolis

Esp Griffyn said:


> I've got no dog in this fight (campy power metal isn't my thing) but I have been following this saga with much amusement. I can't believe they've started a Patreon. Ten dollars a month to be part of a "community", what a deal.



Carnifex started a patreon too, different membership tiers cost 10, 20, and 30 dollars. For song play throughs, podcasts, movie nights and album commentaries. What a deal... so everyone is doing it in different ways.


----------



## JoeTech

Jari is so pathetic lol.



Metropolis said:


> Carnifex started a patreon too, different membership tiers cost 10, 20, and 30 dollars. For song play throughs, podcasts, movie nights and album commentaries. What a deal... so everyone is doing it in different ways.



Damn I completely forgot about Carnifex lol. I saw them live when they were starting out years ago - I'll always remember how humble and genuinely happy their drummer was after their first headlining set.


----------



## gunch

Im not much for power metal but apparently Wintersun is pretty good? From more like "I like Watchtower and Spiral Architect" angle?


----------



## Wildebeest

gunch said:


> Im not much for power metal but apparently Wintersun is pretty good? From more like "I like Watchtower and Spiral Architect" angle?


Their first album is killer. Every solo is perfect and I don't find the songs as "cheesy" and overdone as I do with the newer releases. That release felt more Melodic Death Metal to me.


----------



## Petef2007

I can't really believe people still actually give a shit about Time II.


----------



## Dwellingers

Im just here for popcorn!


----------



## TedEH

I have few words for that screenshot. Feels like I'm reading a response from the Trump of the music world. It's all redirection and excuses. How is telling people that the money they gave is going towards paying his taxes going to make anyone feel better.  He should use some of his CrowdSELLING money to hire a PR person.


----------



## Boris_VTR

Metropolis said:


> Actually it took 9 months to write, record, mix & master The Forest Seasons. They took pictures probably meanwhile, which was between 2015-2016.
> 
> *Jari should just stop explaining himself to people he owes nothing*. No one knows what he really thinks about himself and criticizing how music or creative content should be delivered just seems so stupid, and it's never ending circle by these naysayers. Some musicians put out lots of stuff, for some bands it takes almost 15 years to make a new album, some are never going to get there and meet results or expectacions.
> 
> Still it's better than being quiet I guess... in some level I kind of enjoy this kind of drama right now.



Isn't that actually opposite? When you do crowdfound and patreon you actually ow people some content/product?


----------



## Esp Griffyn

Metropolis said:


> Jari should just stop explaining himself to people he owes nothing.



Not even the simps who gave him money to cover his taxes?


----------



## GunpointMetal

Metropolis said:


>


Is this supposed to make anybody feel better about the situation? Lol, this doesn't make him look any better, or the person he responded to look worse. Artists create whether their "fans" are giving them money or not. I've heard Wintersun. If that shit takes that long to write, there's more issues than finances.


----------



## Metropolis

Esp Griffyn said:


> Not even the simps who gave him money to cover his taxes?



That's not how it works. Taxes have been already included in product price and paid afterwards to finnish tax government. Which is 24% plus profit to Indiegogo, which was 5% if I remember it correctly. You sell a product under a company, you pay taxes. Also information about Starchild Creation's revenue is public in this country.



Boris_VTR said:


> Isn't that actually opposite? When you do crowdfound and patreon you actually ow people some content/product?



They sold a product, which people put money on. After that they are not responsible to nothing, like any other company is not. Expectacions are it's used mostly to what Jari has said, and other expenses of running a band.

I think most people are little bit out of touch how it really works.


----------



## Boris_VTR

Metropolis said:


> That's not how it works. Taxes have been already included in product price and paid afterwards to finnish tax government. Which is 24% plus profit to Indiegogo, which was 5% if I remember it correctly. You sell a product under a company, you pay taxes. Also information about Starchild Creation's revenue is public in this country.
> 
> 
> 
> They sold a product, which people put money on. After that they are not responsible to nothing, like any other company is not. Expectacions are it's used mostly to what Jari has said, and other expenses of running a band.
> 
> I think most people are little bit out of touch how it really works.


Wasnt their big (and major) promise for crowdfund to use this money to build the HQ? And now he is offended that people asked what he did with money because HQ is not yet built? Hi didnt ask money for taxes, he said it was for HQ. Or I'm missing something?


----------



## Metropolis

Boris_VTR said:


> Wasnt their big (and major) promise for crowdfund to use this money to build the HQ? And now he is offended that people asked what he did with money because HQ is not yet built? Hi didnt ask money for taxes, he said it was for HQ. Or I'm missing something?



It was and still is, plan to build a studio hasn't gone anywhere and it's not started yet because it costs at least 500 000€ to get it started. Of course they used professional help to evaluate building costs. Coming to an agreement with Nuclear Blast was probably difficult.

They will start building it after the second coming crowdfunding, at least that's their plan since year 2017. There will be three crowdfundings total with new albums and possible other extra content. Intention to do three of them is more than they actually need, and no one knew if crowdfunding would succeed or not.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/wintersun-crowdfunding--3#/

Long term plans like this aren't that usual in band level and I'm just interested how it will turn out. Second crowdfunding could be here next year. That might be all I know and remember from these three years...


----------



## Dayn

I'm not terribly interested in the Patreon but if another crowdfunding opportunity came by like The Forest Seasons, hell yeah I'd jump on it. I thought the first was a success - I got a hell of a lot more stuff than I thought I'd get.

But as far as I'm concerned, as someone who thinks Time I is one of the best albums I've ever heard, Time II doesn't exist and people just need to get over it.


----------



## metalstrike

I feel Time II is just as real as a new Necrophagist album.


----------



## fps

GunpointMetal said:


> Is this supposed to make anybody feel better about the situation? Lol, this doesn't make him look any better, or the person he responded to look worse. Artists create whether their "fans" are giving them money or not. I've heard Wintersun. If that shit takes that long to write, there's more issues than finances.



I think many of us on this forum know what it's like to agonise over writing music and not necessarily to know when something is right, but definitely to know when it is wrong. This can lead to huge delays even for those of us who are amateurs in putting out work. This chap meanwhile is working at that professional level with a huge level of exposure and this is his life's work.

The business model of Patreon etc seems fundamentally flawed for this kind of artist.


----------



## TedEH

fps said:


> many of us on this forum know what it's like


We also know that flashy new stuff and buildings aren't going to solve any of that. "We all know what it's like" to think "I just need one more guitar" - leading to owning a lot of guitars and writing no more songs than you would have otherwise.

Besides, I thought all the music was written already?



Metropolis said:


> Long term plans like this aren't that usual in band level


I can't think of any other band that behaves the way Wintersun does. It's incredibly unusual to ask for your own personal studio with a sauna as a prerequisite to producing any music.


----------



## fps

TedEH said:


> We also know that flashy new stuff and buildings aren't going to solve any of that. "We all know what it's like" to think "I just need one more guitar" - leading to owning a lot of guitars and writing no more songs than you would have otherwise.
> 
> Besides, I thought all the music was written already?
> 
> 
> I can't think of any other band that behaves the way Wintersun does. It's incredibly unusual to ask for your own personal studio with a sauna as a prerequisite to producing any music.



Maybe that's where all the other bands have been going wrong as they slog it out inhaling each other in the back of a van.


----------



## GunpointMetal

fps said:


> Maybe that's where all the other bands have been going wrong as they slog it out inhaling each other in the back of a van.


 I don't know, most of those bands can put out an album every year or two. The band/some fans are acting like this is gonna be the next evolution of music or some shit, when its probably gonna be just like the other Wintersun stuff that DIDN'T require a huge personal space with luxurious amenities to produce. This whole crowdfunding situation, to me, comes off as pure ego. Someone making fucking METAL MUSIC for shit's sake acting like they're Bach or Beethoven or something.


----------



## Sogradde

Metropolis said:


> because it costs at least 500 000€ to get it started.


What the fuck does he need that amount of cash for? I know a fair share of audio engineers and none of them have a studio worth half a million euros yet produce amazing albums.
What level of delusion is this even?


----------



## Metropolis

Sogradde said:


> What the fuck does he need that amount of cash for? I know a fair share of audio engineers and none of them have a studio worth half a million euros yet produce amazing albums.
> What level of delusion is this even?



It's quite a lot... keep in mind that Finland is almost as expensive as Norway, and product selling vat. is still set at 24%. Who knows if they have other purposes than just being Wintersun headquarters for the property, if it gets built.


----------



## fps

GunpointMetal said:


> I don't know, most of those bands can put out an album every year or two. The band/some fans are acting like this is gonna be the next evolution of music or some shit, when its probably gonna be just like the other Wintersun stuff that DIDN'T require a huge personal space with luxurious amenities to produce. This whole crowdfunding situation, to me, comes off as pure ego. Someone making fucking METAL MUSIC for shit's sake acting like they're Bach or Beethoven or something.



They're acting like they want to make a living out of music, certainly.


----------



## GunpointMetal

fps said:


> They're acting like they want to make a living out of music, certainly.


That's why you MAKE RECORDS. If you don't actually make music, how are you gonna make a living making music? lol
At the moment, it would seem they feel entitled to money for just having the idea to make music. Let's just pay them for starting a band....


----------



## TedEH

Metropolis said:


> Who knows if they have other purposes


If I was giving them money, I would certainly want to know.


----------



## fps

GunpointMetal said:


> That's why you MAKE RECORDS. If you don't actually make music, how are you gonna make a living making music? lol
> At the moment, it would seem they feel entitled to money for just having the idea to make music. Let's just pay them for starting a band....



I'm not defending the band, but we can all see that making music is not the way bands are making their living making music these days. Music as a product which is sold has collapsed. This is part of why bands take so long to release records now compared with before.


----------



## GunpointMetal

fps said:


> I'm not defending the band, but we can all see that making music is not the way bands are making their living making music these days. Music as a product which is sold has collapsed. This is part of why bands take so long to release records now compared with before.


 From what I've seen its mostly bands that were around 10+ years ago that are spending a lot of time between records. Younger bands are releasing EPs every 8-12 months to keep up interest so they can sell their merch/lessons/preset packages, etc.


----------



## Winspear

I totally understand his feelings of not wanting to do things without anything but the ideal dream setup. Been there. Somewhat still there (having to sell most of my gear largely snapped me out of it thankfully). But it's deluded to think it's a justifiable excuse to other people


----------



## j3ps3

fps said:


> I think many of us on this forum know what it's like to agonise over writing music and not necessarily to know when something is right, but definitely to know when it is wrong. This can lead to huge delays even for those of us who are amateurs in putting out work. This chap meanwhile is working at that professional level with a huge level of exposure and this is his life's work.



I don't think it's a good excuse, though. I doubt any musician actually achieves what he hears in his head. It's always somewhat a compromise. You should just learn to live with that, and I think that is something Jari doesn't know how to do, yet at his level he definitely should. Just my opinion, which doesn't really matter, of course 

Edit: This is exactly the reason why I never really learned how to write songs. I can do maybe one or two in a year, but that's it and it's entirely because I keep coming up with excuses to myself instead of just doing it. "This isn't good enough" and as a result I wouldn't do anything. Instead of that I could do something and learn something out of it.


----------



## TedEH

fps said:


> we can all see that making music is not the way bands are making their living making music these days


When the market you work in collapses under you, the response probably shouldn't be to ask people to build you a sauna. Musicians who make a living are contributing in other valuable ways: giving lessons, putting out other kinds of projects, pivoting to youtube/influencer kinds of things, working non-music jobs to fund what they want to do, etc etc.


----------



## Metropolis

TedEH said:


> When the market you work in collapses under you, the response probably shouldn't be to ask people to build you a sauna. Musicians who make a living are contributing in other valuable ways: giving lessons, putting out other kinds of projects, pivoting to youtube/influencer kinds of things, working non-music jobs to fund what they want to do, etc etc.



You know that the whole sauna thing is just a meme :^) Or maybe it isn't because every house and flat in this country has one...

Teemu, Asim and Kai are giving lessons, and working full-time as a musician in other bands. Their live session drummers have other bands too, such as Stratovarius and Finntroll. I don't know about Jukka, maybe he's having another non-music related job, but he's also employee to Jari and his company. Jari is only doing Wintersun and everything involved with it. Actually Jari has done photography at some level for a while from what I remember. So I don't think that whole economy of Wintersun is only dependent of crowdfundings, album & merch sales, their tours or Patreon.

Here's Jari's youtube channel if anyone is interested.
https://www.youtube.com/user/JariWintersun


----------



## TedEH

Are you secretly Jari? 

Remove sauna from that sentence and replace it with house, and it's the same sentiment.

My criticism is not pointed at Teemu, Kai, etc - it's squarely pointed at Jari and Wintersun as a whole, and basically all of his public facing actions/communications lately.


----------



## Metropolis

TedEH said:


> Are you secretly Jari?
> 
> Remove sauna from that sentence and replace it with house, and it's the same sentiment.
> 
> My criticism is not pointed at Teemu, Kai, etc - it's squarely pointed at Jari and Wintersun as a whole, and basically all of his public facing actions/communications lately.



No, just a fan since 2004... 2005'ish or so when I was a teenager. He lives quite close though.

It also could be an office built to be a studio, and act as a retail space and office. Not an individual house for living in the first place. And I get that, just wanted to mention those things too.


----------



## TedEH

I think you missed my point entirely.


----------



## fps

TedEH said:


> When the market you work in collapses under you, the response probably shouldn't be to ask people to build you a sauna. Musicians who make a living are contributing in other valuable ways: giving lessons, putting out other kinds of projects, pivoting to youtube/influencer kinds of things, working non-music jobs to fund what they want to do, etc etc.



It shouldn't be, but his response is, and it's working, that's all I'm saying.


----------



## TedEH

Is it working though? He still doesn't have his grand studio or sauna, and we haven't gotten much music out of the deal.


----------



## p0ke

TedEH said:


> When the market you work in collapses under you, the response probably shouldn't be to ask people to build you a sauna. Musicians who make a living are contributing in other valuable ways: giving lessons, putting out other kinds of projects, pivoting to youtube/influencer kinds of things, working non-music jobs to fund what they want to do, etc etc.



Well, here in Finland we have a saying: "The one who sells in not the stupid one - the buyer is". I mean, if you can make a living (or get a free house with sauna) out of crowdfunding, why wouldn't you? 
But really, half a million is a shitload of money for a house over here. I have a friend who's built two huge houses without cutting corners, and he hasn't spent half a million in total. Yes, the capital city area is way more expensive than where I live, but why does the studio have to be there? It'd make more sense in every way to have it in the countryside somewhere...


----------



## TedEH

p0ke said:


> why wouldn't you?


Arguably, if you convince your fans to buy into something stupid, and publicly, you've potentially damaged your reputation pretty badly. I would imagine a lot of Wintersun fans were lost by this whole process.


----------



## Esp Griffyn

p0ke said:


> if you can make a living (or get a free house with sauna) out of crowdfunding, why wouldn't you?



Because taking advantage of their simp fans is unethical and dishonest? Jari will probably start an OnlyFans next.


----------



## Metropolis

p0ke said:


> Well, here in Finland we have a saying: "The one who sells in not the stupid one - the buyer is". I mean, if you can make a living (or get a free house with sauna) out of crowdfunding, why wouldn't you?
> But really, half a million is a shitload of money for a house over here. I have a friend who's built two huge houses without cutting corners, and he hasn't spent half a million in total. Yes, the capital city area is way more expensive than where I live, but why does the studio have to be there? It'd make more sense in every way to have it in the countryside somewhere...



About 300k will get you decent house here, but in the outskirts of area and it can look much like so called countryside... they got just that much money in the first crowdfunding, gross was 460k. But free? Nothing is free, even The Forest Seasons was a lot of work. They toured over two years (saw them live three times during that time), and are planning next bigger moves and just having one little source of income more. What are they even gonna get from it... about 2.5k per month right now, divided to four band members minus taxes, not too much.

Cost of a professional studio is at least in tens of thousands and that doesn't include property or building. You can go up from there a lot, to even millions like most famous and praised studios in the world, but this is not gonna be one of them. I expect a space at least with control room, drum room, vocal room, and amp room. Plus some sort of modest living/sleeping facilities.



Esp Griffyn said:


> Because taking advantage of their simp fans is unethical and dishonest? Jari will probably start an OnlyFans next.



They sold a digital product which included their three albums, and over 9000 people bought it for 50 euros. There is nothing dishonest in that. I have enjoyed those products (albums, isolated instrument tracks, photos taken by Jari) about three years now, and that's what I call value.

There is lot of bands doing crowdfundings, patreons, selling all sorts of digital products right now and it's nothing to write about.

What even is a simp, some kind of new meme word? Urban dictionary says...
_"A man that puts himself in a subservient/submissive position under women in hopes of winning them over, without the female bringing anything to the table." 
_
Next time you buy a product of any kind remember that someone selling that is taking advantage of you.

My blunt theory from the most vocally aggressive Wintersun fans is that they are just being plain jealous and really lack in constructive thinking. They just have to yell over the internet and have some sort of output to their negative thoughts or things happening in their lives. Which is fairly common in these days of the internet, it's so damn easy to just throw so called "solutions" off the keyboard in social media. Of course you can have your own opinion about everything, but that's not the solution or the truth at this point if we are keeping the subject in a band called Wintersun.


----------



## Dayn

Metropolis said:


> They sold a digital product which included their three albums, and over 9000 people bought it for 50 euros. There is nothing dishonest in that. I have enjoyed those products (albums, isolated instrument tracks, photos taken by Jari) about three years now, and that's what I call value.
> 
> There is lot of bands doing crowdfundings, patreons, selling all sorts of digital products right now and it's nothing to write about.


Seriously. We didn't sign up to be investors in a bloody joint venture with an entitlement to frequent dividends. We got exactly what we bargained for.


----------



## TedEH

Metropolis said:


> You can go up from there a lot, to even millions like most famous and praised studios in the world, but this is not gonna be one of them. I expect a space at least with control room, drum room, vocal room, and amp room. Plus some sort of modest living/sleeping facilities.


If the studio is going to be a compromise anyway, then why not just pay to use an existing (and likely better) facility? Would that not be more cost-effective? That's a large part of what doesn't make sense here.



Metropolis said:


> Next time you buy a product of any kind remember that someone selling that is taking advantage of you.


On some level I agree with this. Nothing would be sold to you if the vendor didn't gain from the transaction.



Metropolis said:


> My blunt theory from the most vocally aggressive Wintersun fans is that they are just being plain jealous and really lack in constructive thinking.


Trust me, my comments don't come from a place of jealousy.

I don't generally have much of a problem with something being sold online, I just find there always to be a layer of sketchiness (or maybe just silliness) to everything Wintersun does or says. Crowdfunding as a means to just sell an existing product? Why not just sell the product like you normally would? Purchasing something and funding something are supposed to be two very different transactions.

If it works out for them, then fine, all the power to them I guess, but it doesn't change how the whole wintersun hq thing is just kinda absurd. They can do as they please, and I'll be happy for them if they succeed, but I can't take them seriously anymore.


----------



## j3ps3

Metropolis said:


> About 300k will get you decent house here, but in the outskirts of area and it can look much like so called countryside... they got just that much money in the first crowdfunding, gross was 460k. But free? Nothing is free, even The Forest Seasons was a lot of work. They toured over two years (saw them live three times during that time), and are planning next bigger moves and just having one little source of income more. What are they even gonna get from it... about 2.5k per month right now, divided to four band members minus taxes, not too much.
> 
> Cost of a professional studio is at least in tens of thousands and that doesn't include property or building. You can go up from there a lot, to even millions like most famous and praised studios in the world, but this is not gonna be one of them. I expect a space at least with control room, drum room, vocal room, and amp room. Plus some sort of modest living/sleeping facilities.



It's a business. You work to get money. You put the money back on the band to get bigger things. Nothing Jari has done is something special - rather really lazy. Everything you listed as a pro instead of a con is something musicians do all the time. Jari actually does less work than average dude on that front. Why should he get more? There's nothing that special about those mixes or those songs they should take this long to make. I've never heard, for example, Tuomas Holopainen to complain about any of this stuff and you can't say he didn't have a big vision. Jari is just a snake oil salesman.

I have friends who have build professional studios for themselves at Helsinki area and they didn't need free 500k to do that. Jari already has that, yet he has done nothing.


----------



## død

Metropolis said:


> It's quite a lot... keep in mind that Finland is almost as expensive as Norway, and product selling vat. is still set at 24%. Who knows if they have other purposes than just being Wintersun headquarters for the property, if it gets built.


Norwegian here. You could build a studio for 1/5th of what he's asking for, downtown Oslo, no expense spared. The dude's an entitled brat, that's it.


----------



## GunpointMetal

The only thing I'm jealous of is the amount of simps throwing money at this clown. I'm sorry, the music is not that special that you need a special facility and special amenities to make it happen. Maybe another $500k and they can get THE MONEY SHOT!....


----------



## p0ke

Metropolis said:


> About 300k will get you decent house here, but in the outskirts of area and it can look much like so called countryside... they got just that much money in the first crowdfunding, gross was 460k. But free? Nothing is free, even The Forest Seasons was a lot of work. They toured over two years (saw them live three times during that time), and are planning next bigger moves and just having one little source of income more. What are they even gonna get from it... about 2.5k per month right now, divided to four band members minus taxes, not too much.



I never said anything about being free, but if the plan was to fund a studio, that 460k minus tax should've been enough easily. Also the point wasn't that it should _look_ like countryside, the point was that it's cheaper when you go a bit further... For example here in Salo you could buy (well, pretty much even build...) a really nice house and still have 100k left to convert part of it into a studio. And still you can get on a train and get to Helsinki in an hour. Just as an example. 

And if they didn't spend that money on the studio, then they were lying. Plain and simple. I don't care if that's the case, but I can see why someone might be upset about it.

I agree with you that people complaining about "having a sauna" is a joke though, because here every house has one (or more) and also because of that building one isn't particularly expensive. If it's electric, you don't even need a chimney, so it's not like it's a major part of the expenses anyway.


----------



## Metropolis

død said:


> Norwegian here. You could build a studio for 1/5th of what he's asking for, downtown Oslo, no expense spared. The dude's an entitled brat, that's it.



Like 150k? Their original estimation for a single crowdfunding was only 150k, but they tripled it, which was unexpected. It was something you couldn't predict, such as you can't what happens in future crowdfundings, it is what it's going to be. Apartments in downtown Helsinki are something between 6-8k to a square meter, some are even 10k. I don't know how those apply to business properties, and they're usually rented, but it should be similar. And that is way over even Jari's price range. This is why I would go to outside capital area, or Vantaa which is cheapest from these four cities, and have more space with all that money.



j3ps3 said:


> It's a business. You work to get money. You put the money back on the band to get bigger things. Nothing Jari has done is something special - rather really lazy. Everything you listed as a pro instead of a con is something musicians do all the time. Jari actually does less work than average dude on that front. Why should he get more? There's nothing that special about those mixes or those songs they should take this long to make. I've never heard, for example, Tuomas Holopainen to complain about any of this stuff and you can't say he didn't have a big vision. Jari is just a snake oil salesman.
> 
> I have friends who have build professional studios for themselves at Helsinki area and they didn't need free 500k to do that. Jari already has that, yet he has done nothing.



I think Jari has done pretty good if you look at level of his music, three almost "bedroom albums". Of course mixing and mastering along with some other parts than guitars or bass have been done in real studios, such as Sonic Pump and Finnvox. But I have no further idea how much he or Tuomas really works. I would imagine that their working methods are different. Nightwish having enormous record budgets and being on whole another level in popularity and different sub genre.



GunpointMetal said:


> The only thing I'm jealous of is the amount of simps throwing money at this clown. I'm sorry, the music is not that special that you need a special facility and special amenities to make it happen. Maybe another $500k and they can get THE MONEY SHOT!....



But for some people it is. I can say lot of bands that are not special to me, but are for someone. His needs are bit special and obscure for a lot of people to understand. I think he just wants to get out of the bedroom level and step it up a lot that way. Jari is probably one of those persons who are perfectionists, they need good as possible conditions for doing things and are always willing to improve. Having it would relieve a lot of stress from creative process and generally just from living. But I have been a fanboy since his parting from Ensiferum and first couple of years of Wintersun... so some of my opinions can be biased.


----------



## GunpointMetal

His needs are narcissistic and unnecessary, lol. That's not perfectionism, that is narcissism.


----------



## j3ps3

Metropolis said:


> I think Jari has done pretty good if you look at level of his music, three almost "bedroom albums". Of course mixing and mastering along with some other parts than guitars or bass have been done in real studios, such as Sonic Pump and Finnvox. But I have no further idea how much he or Tuomas really works. I would imagine that their working methods are different. Nightwish having enormous record budgets and being on whole another level in popularity and different sub genre.



You missed my entire point. I'm not a Nightwish fan, nor do I know anything about the band, to be honest, but I've never ever seen Tuomas bitch and moan on media how he doesn't have enough money to make an album he wants. He makes the best out of what he has right from the beginning whereas Jari cries how he needs a NASA computer to make an album and how without it it will not sound right, yet there are loads of people who can achieve that same thing in their bedrooms. In the time Jari has released three studio albums, Devin Townsend has released 13 (plus The New Black), and I doubt those albums would've not been made if the "budget isn't big enough for me to make an album boohoo ". If you want to make music, you will make it happen with what you have. It's not like Jari is able to hear those 1000000 tracks in his head, which he so desperately needs.


----------



## GunpointMetal

j3ps3 said:


> It's not like Jari is able to hear those 1000000 tracks in his head, which he so desperately needs.


*1000000 tracks where 500,000 are octaves and won't be heard in the mix anyways.....


----------



## Metropolis

GunpointMetal said:


> *1000000 tracks where 500,000 are octaves and won't be heard in the mix anyways.....



For example in the lower register of Sons Of Winter And Stars there is orchestrated percussion sections which really add to the arrangement and overall sound. There is also some sort of arpeggiated synth parts going on which sound like an individual harmony layer, which is a cool little touch. Creating those sort of wall of sound you have to try a lot of different things and what works in a mix. There can be few hundred tracks per one song.


----------



## j3ps3

Metropolis said:


> For example in the lower register of Sons Of Winter And Stars there is orchestrated percussion sections which really add to the arrangement and overall sound. There is also some sort of arpeggiated synth parts going on which sound like an individual harmony layer, which is a cool little touch. Creating those sort of wall of sound you have to try a lot of different things and what works in a mix. There can be few hundred tracks per one song.


Everyone and their mother are already doing this and releasing music, except Jari


----------



## GunpointMetal

j3ps3 said:


> Everyone and their mother are already doing this and releasing music, except Jari


That's what I'm saying. He could write out all the arrangements in general MIDI and send it off to someone to render the audio if "creating" was the goal and he's as much of a genius as he thinks he is.


----------



## TedEH

Metropolis said:


> Their original estimation for a single crowdfunding was only 150k, but they tripled it, which was unexpected.


So if they tripled the budget for Wintersun HQ..... where is Wintersun HQ?


----------



## Metropolis

TedEH said:


> So if they tripled the budget for Wintersun HQ..... where is Wintersun HQ?



Actually no because other crowdfundings have not happened yet, I think they got budget higher because first one went that well. And if I remember it correctly they had 150k target set when first crowdfunding was already going on. Original plan was to make three of them, and they still sticked to that. Actual building starts after second one.



j3ps3 said:


> Everyone and their mother are already doing this and releasing music, except Jari



Because they have not planned things years ahead for making money and don't have label, or such high standards like these guys have. Remember again that there is five world class players and musicians.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Metropolis said:


> Remember again that there is five world class players and musicians.


That should make this process easier and quicker, not longer and more complicated...


----------



## Metropolis

GunpointMetal said:


> That should make this process easier and quicker, not longer and more complicated...



Not entirely true when you're commited to a plan which takes several years. Of course they could ditch all that and make an album in six months, but that's not what Wintersun is all about. It's Jari's project, and as you know... it takes time to do everything. At least that's how I see it, and there is many who refuses to do so.


----------



## GunpointMetal

At this point as many people are as aware of Wintersun: The Meme as they are Wintersun: The Band. The longer it takes to get out this album, the more it costs, the more people are gonna know the meme than the band.


----------



## j3ps3

Metropolis said:


> Because they have not planned things years ahead for making money and don't have label, or such high standards like these guys have. Remember again that there is five world class players and musicians.



Poor or wealthy, label or no label - it is 100% doable. And to be honest, I wouldn't count Wintersun mixes as "high standards". They're not bad, but nothing special either. More stuff will not make the songs any better. And like I said, it is not like Jari can hear those 1000000 tracks in his head. It's just a bullshit excuse for not doing anything.


----------



## CTID

i just want to say that i read through this entire thread because i'm a masochist and honestly whoever said that our savior devy should be subjected to this dickhead should feel ashamed of themselves


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

CTID said:


> i just want to say that i read through this entire thread because i'm a masochist and honestly whoever said that our savior devy should be subjected to this dickhead should feel ashamed of themselves


Someone who needs a maaassssive studio and a supercomputer to make his album.

Vs someone who made one of his pinnacle albums in his bedroom with a POD XT and duct tape.


----------



## oracles

DT's quarantine concerts are the perfect example of someone who's a known perfectionist, writing music with just as many layers as Wintersun, and hes using a fucking iPhone mounted to a fan, and a rigged xbox controller to switch camera angles.

Jari has no excuse, dude just needs to come clean as a lazy narcissist.


----------



## Randy

Chinese Timeocracy


----------



## Merrekof

Okay, I read the first pages and the last 5 pages of this thread and damn..I don't like Jari's attitude!

I've been in several bands and recording albums, and there will always be too little money to do the shit you really want. Not that we were on Jari's level, but we did stuff like clearing the singers livingroom, stuffing blankets and pillows in certain places for two weeks. We did this and got a decent album for not that much money. If you have/had? Nuclear Blast behind you, don't complain!

I remember when the first Wintersun album came out. I liked that album but it was not that special. If he wants that kind of budget, he would have to sell out arenas. Like U2, Muse, Red Hot Chili Peppers,..

Even low budget music can be great, if the musicians are getting their sht together.


----------



## Boris_VTR

oracles said:


> DT's quarantine concerts are the perfect example of someone who's a known perfectionist, writing music with just as many layers as Wintersun, and hes using a fucking iPhone mounted to a fan, and a rigged xbox controller to switch camera angles.
> 
> Jari has no excuse, dude just needs to come clean as a lazy narcissist.


DT as..? Any link to this would be appreciated


----------



## Merrekof

Boris_VTR said:


> DT as..? Any link to this would be appreciated?


Devin Townsend


----------



## Winspear

Boris_VTR said:


> DT as..? Any link to this would be appreciated?


sounds like Devin Townsend


----------



## Boris_VTR

Thank you both for info


----------



## Esp Griffyn

The more I read into this bizarre situation, the more I think Jari is a master conman. He did well to get so much money, I didn't think power metal fans would have all that much money left after buying their peaked caps, aviator sunglasses and studded leather codpieces.


----------



## gnoll

Why do people even care so much?

If you want to support the band then do so, if you don't, then don't?


----------



## j3ps3

gnoll said:


> Why do people even care so much?



gnoll doesn't care about anything. He's a nihilist.







But seriously, why wouldn't people care about this? I'm interested in music and the scene, so of course I care about it. Jari's the one who decided to go the crowdfunding route and made this whole thing public. Just because I don't care about the band, doesn't mean I can't criticize his actions. If he'd just own up and said it's all on him, I wouldn't care. But this "I need money, studio, BMW and a golden watch with diamonds to make an album for you guys" is just wrong. How many albums would there exist if this was the case with every musician?


----------



## GunpointMetal

He just needs to find a geriatric rich lady that will fund him for sexual favors.


----------



## Metropolis

- No one needs a golden watch... or a super computer
- That behaviour is far from narcissism
- Criticizing those actions when just coming to a thread on internet or not caring about the band at all is plain stupid, and you're not probably knowing what you're talking about
- Saying that those mixes or music in general don't have high standards is a really big underestimation
- Comparing how other bands or musicians do things don't apply into this situation anyway

- And it's not power metal  mostly melodic death metal mixed with other genres, power of course, folk metal here and there, and so on.
- You don't have to buy anything, listen to the bands music, or care anything about it if it's that hard



Merrekof said:


> Okay, I read the first pages and the last 5 pages of this thread and damn..I don't like Jari's attitude!
> 
> I've been in several bands and recording albums, and there will always be too little money to do the shit you really want. Not that we were on Jari's level, but we did stuff like clearing the singers livingroom, stuffing blankets and pillows in certain places for two weeks. We did this and got a decent album for not that much money. If you have/had? Nuclear Blast behind you, don't complain!
> 
> I remember when the first Wintersun album came out. I liked that album but it was not that special. If he wants that kind of budget, he would have to sell out arenas. Like U2, Muse, Red Hot Chili Peppers,..
> 
> Even low budget music can be great, if the musicians are getting their sht together.



He doesn't want to make albums anymore with those shoelace budgets in a home studio. Not that he ever had really small budget, because his somewhat professional recording career started in Ensiferum year 1999.

Let's get straight that I do some this level critizizing as well, but still I don't want throw shit on Jari's face. They have been doing well last few years, and probably will in the future. Somehow I don't care much about money making ethics, if it's legal and people want to support that way, and if it works then it's all fine.

Time II has been written and recorded, the meme might be alive some day...


----------



## GunpointMetal

Metropolis said:


> mostly melodic death metal mixed with other genres, power of course, folk metal here and there, and so on.


 Isn't that almost exactly the definition of power metal?




Metropolis said:


> Time II has been written and recorded, the meme might be alive some day...


Wait, the album is already finished except for mix and master? Then why all the nonsense about needing a studio?


----------



## j3ps3

Metropolis said:


> - No one needs a golden watch... or a super computer
> - That behaviour is far from narcissism
> - Criticizing those actions when just coming to a thread on internet or not caring about the band at all is plain stupid, and you're not probably knowing what you're talking about
> - Saying that those mixes or music in general don't have high standards is a really big underestimation
> - Comparing how other bands or musicians do things don't apply into this situation anyway



You still can't seem to get the point I'm making. And isn't that "super computer" literally what started this whole thing? Jari wasn't able to "complete the album because the kind of computer he needs doesn't exist or costs too much for him"? That literally is what I read and heard when this whole debacle started around 10 years ago and even back then it was a laughable excuse, and I heard about this through fans who actually were interested in the music of Wintersun.

And yes. Comparing to other bands totally applies. There's nothing uniquely special about Jari or Wintersun. It's just a band and there are million others like it that can make this stuff faster and better without the budget Jari has in use. Why wouldn't I make comparison to his colleagues? If those mixes and albums would be that great, Jari wouldn't need to do this crowdfunding shit. People would find it interesting enough to buy just because it's "THE BEST THING EVER, MAN" but it isn't. It doesn't achieve that and nothing you say will make it like that. It isn't world changing at any level. Just a musician who has his head stuck up too far up his own ass. And ALL my criticism is towards Jari anyway, not the band as a whole.




Metropolis said:


> He doesn't want to make albums anymore with those shoelace budgets in a home studio. Not that he ever had really small budget, because his somewhat professional recording career started in Ensiferum year 1999.



Me neither. Give me money. I'll promise you I will release an album that exceeds everything Wintersun has ever done. Mix, music, production - Everything will be better! Just trust me, man. I just need some money to make it happen! This will change the world, dude!

But seriously, you can't just go "WE'RE A BIG BAND NOW" and demand bigger budget just because you feel like it. It's a business. You make the albums and tour and put the money made back into the band to make it grow. If you can't afford something, then you can't afford something. That's life. There's no free passes.



Metropolis said:


> Let's get straight that I do some this level critizizing as well, but still I don't want throw shit on Jari's face. They have been doing well last few years, and probably will in the future. Somehow I don't care much about money making ethics, if it's legal and people want to support that way, and if it works then it's all fine.
> 
> Time II has been written and recorded, the meme might be alive some day...



Have you heard Time II? Jari claiming it exists doesn't mean shit until it's released.

The album that I talked about making is, like, totally done too! You just gotta trust me, man. And send me some money. I promise I will release it after I have my own studio!


----------



## KailM

My $.02:

I've really enjoyed every Wintersun release. The first one is an outstanding album. People saying it's not are either being unrealistic, petty, -- or both. Jari is an incredible guitar player, and so is Teemu. I've always said that Jari's greatest skill isn't that he can shred with the best of them, but that he knows how to show restraint and not turn his music into a full shred/wank fest. His lead work in all of his songs comes in at just the right time and is tastefully done.

One one level, I think he's probably got a lot more in common with us in this forum than y'all think. He's very passionate about his music and wants to control it at every level. I can't fault him on that. Calling him a 'narcissist' is pretty inaccurate as well. In all I've seen of him, he comes across as very approachable and down to the earth, as well as not showing a real strong ego. He very much believes in his music and wants it to be the best it can be. I think a lot of the time, he should probably not comment so much and/or talk up his music so much. It is clearly not well-received. I personally wouldn't have gone the route of crowdfunding, but it is what it is.

In my opinion, better/more layered production isn't what's going to make his next album great. It's great riffs, song structures, and tasteful shredding that'll do it. If there is a new Wintersun album, I'll very likely buy it. But I'm going to buy it AFTER it's released, and no sooner.


----------



## Metropolis

j3ps3 said:


> You still can't seem to get the point I'm making. And isn't that "super computer" literally what started this whole thing? Jari wasn't able to "complete the album because the kind of computer he needs doesn't exist or costs too much for him"? That literally is what I read and heard when this whole debacle started around 10 years ago and even back then it was a laughable excuse, and I heard about this through fans who actually were interested in the music of Wintersun.
> 
> And yes. Comparing to other bands totally applies. There's nothing uniquely special about Jari or Wintersun. It's just a band and there are million others like it that can make this stuff faster and better without the budget Jari has in use. Why wouldn't I make comparison to his colleagues? If those mixes and albums would be that great, Jari wouldn't need to do this crowdfunding shit. People would find it interesting enough to buy just because it's "THE BEST THING EVER, MAN" but it isn't. It doesn't achieve that and nothing you say will make it like that. It isn't world changing at any level. Just a musician who has his head stuck up too far up his own ass. And ALL my criticism is towards Jari anyway, not the band as a whole.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Me neither. Give me money. I'll promise you I will release an album that exceeds everything Wintersun has ever done. Mix, music, production - Everything will be better! Just trust me, man. I just need some money to make it happen! This will change the world, dude!
> 
> But seriously, you can't just go "WE'RE A BIG BAND NOW" and demand bigger budget just because you feel like it. It's a business. You make the albums and tour and put the money made back into the band to make it grow. If you can't afford something, then you can't afford something. That's life. There's no free passes.
> 
> 
> 
> Have you heard Time II? Jari claiming it exists doesn't mean shit until it's released.
> 
> The album that I talked about making is, like, totally done too! You just gotta trust me, man. And send me some money. I promise I will release it after I have my own studio!



Kind of, and people are still circulating same accuse, and it's long gone now. At least should be, because those problems started back in 2006 when he was writing and recording Time I.

It's not about money, it's more about resources you can get with money for someone who has skills to use them. For example Jari has talked about using real symphonic orchestra in some of the future music. They won't be still doing mega budgets of 500 000€ for a single album like Nightwish or Epica.

Comparing art or peoples lives as a whole is entirely subjectical. For some it might be best thing ever. And putting it up at this time is pointless because anything is not supposed to be ready either according to their plan which was revealed in 2017. And I hate when people are putting everything either black or white in any kind of scale, it's just music. We are in a messy grey area at this. I don't know why everything about this is a problem, I just see things which have a solution.

You can believe what ever you want from Time II or other material Jari has written in the last eight years. Probably people are putting this same shit up after 5-10 years from this when all three crowdfundings and albums plus building the studio are done.


----------



## TedEH

Metropolis said:


> It's not about money, it's more about resources you can get with money


It's been said 100 times - those resources have already available to him. There's no reason he has to own every piece of hardware involved in the production of his music. Hire some help. Rent some studio time. It's not rocket surgery.

For the record, I actually quite like the first Wintersun album. But the production quality of it is just "ok", and the qualities of that album don't negate any of the criticism leveled at Wintersun.


----------



## TedEH

I do like this thread though. I'm glad it's making a comeback.


----------



## Metropolis

TedEH said:


> It's been said 100 times - those resources have already available to him. There's no reason he has to own every piece of hardware involved in the production of his music. Hire some help. Rent some studio time. It's not rocket surgery.
> 
> For the record, I actually quite like the first Wintersun album. But the production quality of it is just "ok", and the qualities of that album don't negate any of the criticism leveled at Wintersun.



He's probably working how resources are allowing to do things. I see The Forest Seasons as a low resource album. Renting studio time for mixing and mastering doesn't belong to his plan anymore.


----------



## Andromalia

This again ? XD


----------



## Lorcan Ward

GunpointMetal said:


> Isn't that almost exactly the definition of power metal?



Power metal is a very vague genre. One band can be full on thrash speed metal while another can be a neo-classical operatic metal but they are still lumped under power metal. Change the vocals to growls but leave everything the exact same and then they are now both categorised as some kind of death metal.


----------



## gnoll

j3ps3 said:


> Just because I don't care about the band, doesn't mean I can't criticize his actions.



Lol, yeah, I just don't get why you would bother then.

I mean, 37 pages of people whining about this and being indignant about him needing a sauna?

You guys don't have to pay for his sauna if you don't want to. So are you being noble and complaining for the sake of all the poor people who are paying for his sauna? Or why? I just don't really get it I guess.


----------



## GunpointMetal

gnoll said:


> Lol, yeah, I just don't get why you would bother then.
> 
> I mean, 37 pages of people whining about this and being indignant about him needing a sauna?
> 
> You guys don't have to pay for his sauna if you don't want to. So are you being noble and complaining for the sake of all the poor people who are paying for his sauna? Or why? I just don't really get it I guess.


Well what is it when you claim you don't care but you still complain about people who don't care about the thing they're complaining about doing some complaining?


----------



## gnoll

GunpointMetal said:


> Well what is it when you claim you don't care but you still complain about people who don't care about the thing they're complaining about doing some complaining?



How did I just knooow that reply was coming?

You guys started it.


----------



## GunpointMetal

gnoll said:


> How did I just knooow that reply was coming?


Probably because you're smart enough to know what saying things that don't make sense on the internet is going to be noted.


----------



## gnoll

GunpointMetal said:


> Probably because you're smart enough to know what saying things that don't make sense on the internet is going to be noted.



Plus, I resisted not making sense for 37 pages!

Doing pretty good here...


----------



## Randy

gnoll said:


> I mean, 37 pages of people whining about this



It's 37 pages because there's incremental updates from Jari's camp and more appeals for money, which keep renewing the complaints about "this" because each new appeal without a release is another offense. Stop making it sound like one thing happened once and it's just people bitching about that one thing into infinity.

Also, "noble" white knighting is rushing into a thread to tell people they're wrong for complaining about things on the internet.


----------



## TedEH

The only two things the internet are for are complaining, and telling people they're wrong for complaining. Ok, so three things.


----------



## gnoll

Randy said:


> It's 37 pages because there's incremental updates from Jari's camp and more appeals for money, which keep renewing the complaints about "this" because each new appeal without a release is another offense. Stop making it sound like one thing happened once and it's just people bitching about that one thing into infinity.
> 
> Also, "noble" white knighting is rushing into a thread to tell people they're wrong for complaining about things on the internet.



Fiiine, I admit I should never have bothered. Keep complaining.


----------



## Metropolis

I bumped up this thread after 1.5 years of silence and complained about complainments, which led to more complaintments and complaintments of those arguments. That counts as three things internet is for


----------



## Ataraxia2320

Metropolis said:


> I bumped up this thread after 1.5 years of silence and complained about complainments, which led to more complaintments and complaintments of those arguments. That counts as three things internet is for



So you said earlier that the original idea was to build Wintersun hq after 3 rounds of crowd funing right? 

And you also said that they unexpectedly got 3 times the funding that their goal was right? 

And they still havent built their HQ right? 

Do you not see that as a bit weird?


----------



## GunpointMetal

Ataraxia2320 said:


> So you said earlier that the original idea was to build Wintersun hq after 3 rounds of crowd funing right?
> 
> And you also said that they unexpectedly got 3 times the funding that their goal was right?
> 
> And they still havent built their HQ right?
> 
> Do you not see that as a bit weird?


It's hard to see stuff when you're attempting to fit Jari's entire boot in your mouth.


----------



## Masoo2

gnoll said:


> Lol, yeah, I just don't get why you would bother then.
> 
> I mean, 37 pages of people whining about this and being indignant about him needing a sauna?
> 
> You guys don't have to pay for his sauna if you don't want to. So are you being noble and complaining for the sake of all the poor people who are paying for his sauna? Or why? I just don't really get it I guess.


I mean, the point of a forum like this is _literally_ to discuss things, what's the problem with discussing how outrageous Jari has been about all of this?

For as much as I like Wintersun (they're the one band in power metal/folk metal/whatever genre that I actually listen to) they're never getting a cent of mine after all the shenanigans Jari has pulled. Artists have produced better mixed albums with more complicated instrumentals and infinitely more layers/tracks than his on laptops for pete's sake, his demands are outrageous and it's a shame his fans keep giving up all their money for nothing.

To that point, I really don't support Patreon and similar concepts at all. No creator of any kind that I follow has a Patreon yet they get by just fine. That's the nature of being in the content/entertainment business, if you attempt to commercialize it too rapidly/forcefully people take notice and stop supporting you, leading to less money overall.


----------



## TedEH

I had a big Patreon and Youtube and Spotify and etc rant, but it was tangential and not very pointed. But I've got nothing against Patreon for those who are willing to buy into it. It's not for me though.


----------



## gnoll

Masoo2 said:


> I mean, the point of a forum like this is _literally_ to discuss things, what's the problem with discussing how outrageous Jari has been about all of this?
> 
> For as much as I like Wintersun (they're the one band in power metal/folk metal/whatever genre that I actually listen to) they're never getting a cent of mine after all the shenanigans Jari has pulled. Artists have produced better mixed albums with more complicated instrumentals and infinitely more layers/tracks than his on laptops for pete's sake, his demands are outrageous and it's a shame his fans keep giving up all their money for nothing.
> 
> To that point, I really don't support Patreon and similar concepts at all. No creator of any kind that I follow has a Patreon yet they get by just fine. That's the nature of being in the content/entertainment business, if you attempt to commercialize it too rapidly/forcefully people take notice and stop supporting you, leading to less money overall.



Sigh... Yeah, I obviously already regret sticking my big nose into this thread.

What made me initially post here was not people discussing things on a forum. If I wanted to complain about that I'd be terribly busy here and have a much larger post count than I do. It was people being so incessantly negative about things that don't even affect them unless they willfully hand over their money to Jari, something which they seemed highly unlikely to do anyway.

So, that seemed pretty lame to me and I started complaining. Boom, mistake made! Obviously my posts in this thread are just as useless as all the posts complaining about Jari, and I should not have bothered.


----------



## Captain Shoggoth

KailM said:


> My $.02:
> 
> I've really enjoyed every Wintersun release. The first one is an outstanding album. People saying it's not are either being unrealistic, petty, -- or both. Jari is an incredible guitar player, and so is Teemu. I've always said that Jari's greatest skill isn't that he can shred with the best of them, but that he knows how to show restraint and not turn his music into a full shred/wank fest. His lead work in all of his songs comes in at just the right time and is tastefully done.
> 
> One one level, I think he's probably got a lot more in common with us in this forum than y'all think. He's very passionate about his music and wants to control it at every level. I can't fault him on that. Calling him a 'narcissist' is pretty inaccurate as well. In all I've seen of him, he comes across as very approachable and down to the earth, as well as not showing a real strong ego. He very much believes in his music and wants it to be the best it can be. I think a lot of the time, he should probably not comment so much and/or talk up his music so much. It is clearly not well-received. I personally wouldn't have gone the route of crowdfunding, but it is what it is.
> 
> In my opinion, better/more layered production isn't what's going to make his next album great. It's great riffs, song structures, and tasteful shredding that'll do it. If there is a new Wintersun album, I'll very likely buy it. But I'm going to buy it AFTER it's released, and no sooner.



honestly, the S/T is one of my favourite metal albums of all time and Time I was pretty damn good too; but I crowdfunded The Forest Seasons and I thought it was a complete filler album with pretty crap production. One of my absolute teenage musical heroes, but one of my worst experiences as a consumer ever, and was absolutely blown over when he reappeared on my facebook feed this year having STILL not built his Wintersun mansion. Insulting.

Jari may well be a really nice guy but I question how smart and/or legitimately sane he is if half a million fucking euros can't deliver an album from a band that's signed to Nuclear Blast and tours with Arch Enemy. Dude is addicted to making excuses and seriously needs a manager

People making excuses for him have no idea how music is made. He could have made Time II with 1/10th of the crowdfunding money and it still would have been way more money than was necessary. Even if he is a saint, I can't see him ever getting another penny from me


----------



## j3ps3

Metropolis said:


> it's not about money, it's more about resources you can get with money for someone who has skills to use them. For example Jari has talked about using real symphonic orchestra in some of the future music. They won't be still doing mega budgets of 500 000€ for a single album like Nightwish or Epica.


It's a business. At that point you can't really say that it's not about money. Jari is selling a product which, to me at least, in a business sense is the same as those "Imma Nigerian prince give money" emails. He is always asking for more without giving you the actual product you paid for. It's always something around that what he gives you, just to keep you interested and throwing more money at him. That's considered a scam.


----------



## Zalbu

Another funny thing when people bring up the comparisons to Nightwish is how Time I barely sounds any better, production or ambition wise, than Nightwishs early albums that were recorded by a new band with hardly any recording budget back in the late 90's/early 2000's, because Tuomas is actually competent and knows what to do with what he's being given.

Jari should just hire Tuomas as his producer, but Jaris ego would never be able to handle that


----------



## technomancer

TedEH said:


> The only two things the internet are for are complaining, and telling people they're wrong for complaining. Ok, so three things.



You left out getting suckers to donate money


----------



## Metropolis

Zalbu said:


> Another funny thing when people bring up the comparisons to Nightwish is how Time I barely sounds any better, production or ambition wise, than Nightwishs early albums that were recorded by a new band with hardly any recording budget back in the late 90's/early 2000's, because Tuomas is actually competent and knows what to do with what he's being given.
> 
> Jari should just hire Tuomas as his producer, but Jaris ego would never be able to handle that



Nightwish went to massive amount of tracks in mid 2000's and before that their approach was really different and much closer to Wintersun's first album. Some of the sounds were bit cheap in today's standards, but it didn't make music itself worse back in the day. Century Child released in 2002 was the first Nightwish album with real symphonic orchestra, which was a big improvement in that regard.

Time I is really orchestrated to the max and has so much little things going on that you don't even know that some of them exist, unless you would make them disappear. "You don't hear all those tracks in your head" is one really bad argument what I've seen here. Of course you don't, and it's about trying out them in a mix what matters.

Only if you would want Wintersun to sound like a Disney movie soundtrack  Which is not a bad thing, but not just their thing... overall the approach and genre is still really different, and I find these kind of comparisons to be apples vs. oranges. What I read about Nightwish albums since Once is that Tuomas doesn't arrange everything in orchestrated parts by himself, he works with the hired symphonic orchestra for it.


----------



## j3ps3

Metropolis said:


> "You don't hear all those tracks in your head" is one really bad argument what I've seen here. Of course you don't, and it's about trying out them in a mix what matters.



How come it's an bad argument? I think it shows lack of professional skill on Jari's part. In my opinion, whatever art you're making, at some point you need to leave it be and accept it for whatever it is. Bad or good, you hopefully learned something new from it and can apply it in the future for whatever you're making.


----------



## gnoll

Metropolis said:


> Some of the sounds were bit cheap in today's standards, but it didn't make music itself worse back in the day.



Tbh I really think "cheap" sounds work better in metal. If you have strings that sound a bit synthetic, usually that equates to better cut and attack, which is perfect for metal. I don't like full, real orchestras in metal, or vst instruments with a million tracks for that matter. Better show some restraint, pick your sounds wisely and work on a good, simple arrangement.

I remember hearing Fredrik Nordström talk about working with a real orchestra or at least string section for a Dimmu Borgir album, and apparently it was kind of a nightmare, and he had to do all kinds of stuff to the recording in order for it to actually work in the mix.

People are going overboard with "realistic" sounds these days imo. The synth/rompler sounds of the 90s were perfect.


----------



## GunpointMetal

j3ps3 said:


> How come it's an bad argument? I think it shows lack of professional skill on Jari's part. In my opinion, whatever art you're making, at some point you need to leave it be and accept it for whatever it is. Bad or good, you hopefully learned something new from it and can apply it in the future for whatever you're making.


Exactly. And if that's much work to fit all those tracks in the mix, it's probably a pretty poor arrangement. If you have to work that hard to jam stuff in there, it's most likely completely unnecessary to the music.


----------



## Metropolis

GunpointMetal said:


> Exactly. And if that's much work to fit all those tracks in the mix, it's probably a pretty poor arrangement. If you have to work that hard to jam stuff in there, it's most likely completely unnecessary to the music.



Totally a matter of taste, for some bands I prefer more synthetic sounding strings with simple arrangements, and some benefit from real instruments or realistic sounding samples more. For example Jari's approach is a mix of both worlds, which makes it pretty complicated.

Sounds awesome in a mix or by itself in my opinion.


----------



## TedEH

Don't get me wrong, those don't sound terrible, but it's not genius, nor does it require bajillions of tracks. I'd argue it's too busy in a lot of places for something that's going to be covered up with instruments that were all designed to be very in your face, plus a dude screaming at you. I like metal as much as the last guy, don't get me wrong, but but lets be realistic about what we're listening to.

I'd almost argue that this is an example of a poor process - so much of that orchestration is lost as soon as the band comes in. People are not listening for the subtle orchestral hits that mirror what the drummer is doing. Has anyone considered that the struggles mixing this are that there are too many elements fighting for your attention at once? And fighting for the same sonic space?


----------



## Metropolis

TedEH said:


> Don't get me wrong, those don't sound terrible, but it's not genius, nor does it require bajillions of tracks. I'd argue it's too busy in a lot of places for something that's going to be covered up with instruments that were all designed to be very in your face, plus a dude screaming at you. I like metal as much as the last guy, don't get me wrong, but but lets be realistic about what we're listening to.
> 
> I'd almost argue that this is an example of a poor process - so much of that orchestration is lost as soon as the band comes in. People are not listening for the subtle orchestral hits that mirror what the drummer is doing. Has anyone considered that the struggles mixing this are that there are too many elements fighting for your attention at once? And fighting for the same sonic space?



Time I as a whole wouldn't sound nearly the same without them, and not many musicians are even willing to do such things in that way. Of course some of it disappears there and it's a struggle to mix, but everything has still it's place. Remastered version I've got in digital form sounds more breathing than the original cd-version which sounded bit too much packed and compressed.


----------



## TedEH

Metropolis said:


> not many musicians are even willing to do such things in that way


Tons of musicians would love to have a bunch of orchestrated junk behind their songs. But there's something to be said about restraint.

Again, look at Devin Townsend as the comparison. IMO the best thing he's done in a while was Transcendence - which is an album that was musically able to breath and be concise and get its point across for two reasons -> he was willing to accept help and input from others, and the songs held back on the "throw everything at it at once" approach that he tends to fall into, which meant the musical ideas had enough space to develop and be properly felt.

Brilliant doesn't mean "a lot of ideas". Everyone has a lot of ideas. Some of those ideas are good. Ideas are meaningless without proper execution.


----------



## GunpointMetal

TedEH said:


> Has anyone considered that the struggles mixing this are that there are too many elements fighting for your attention at once? And fighting for the same sonic space?


 That's what I was trying to say above. Too many things happening in the same octave space/rhythmic space/melody space isn't "genius" and a real good producer would be pulling 3/4 of that stuff out of the mix and all of the music would probably be better for it.


----------



## Metropolis

TedEH said:


> Tons of musicians would love to have a bunch of orchestrated junk behind their songs. But there's something to be said about restraint.
> 
> Again, look at Devin Townsend as the comparison. IMO the best thing he's done in a while was Transcendence - which is an album that was musically able to breath and be concise and get its point across for two reasons -> he was willing to accept help and input from others, and the songs held back on the "throw everything at it at once" approach that he tends to fall into, which meant the musical ideas had enough space to develop and be properly felt.
> 
> Brilliant doesn't mean "a lot of ideas". Everyone has a lot of ideas. Some of those ideas are good. Ideas are meaningless without proper execution.



For me Devin's latest album was just plain unmemorable, and being just about everything didn't bring anything to table, it's just messy. He's done same album all over again since Ziltoid - Addicted/Ki era anyway, if we look at his metal albums.

Lot of ideas doesn't equal brilliant...

I will stick with my opinion about production quality and style of Time I.


----------



## j3ps3

Metropolis said:


> For me Devin's latest album was just plain unmemorable, and being just about everything didn't bring anything to table, it's just messy. He's done same album all over again since Ziltoid - Addicted/Ki era anyway, if we look at his metal albums.



At least he releases music instead of holding it as a hostage for money.


----------



## Zalbu

And besides, Devin has released albums that are straight up grating to listen to because the production is so lousy, like Physicist, but he releases them anyways despite being a perfectionist because the music is the first priority.

The only thing preventing Jari from releasing his music is ego, because he refuses to work with an external producer who can get better results with a tenth of the resources that he has. Look at Misha who recorded great sounding stuff in his bedroom with a POD and VST drums.


----------



## Metropolis

Zalbu said:


> And besides, Devin has released albums that are straight up grating to listen to because the production is so lousy, like Physicist, but he releases them anyways despite being a perfectionist because the music is the first priority.
> 
> The only thing preventing Jari from releasing his music is ego, because he refuses to work with an external producer who can get better results with a tenth of the resources that he has. Look at Misha who recorded great sounding stuff in his bedroom with a POD and VST drums.



Jari used Vox Tonelab SE and Line 6 Pod HD Pro in his apartment for The Forest Seasons. Guitar tones are pretty fizzy, cold, and digital in that album, but that's what he was going for I guess. VST drums and bass also...


----------



## TedEH

^ Proving that you don't need your own state-of-the-art facility to express yourself, right?


----------



## TedEH

Metropolis said:


> For me Devin's latest album was just plain unmemorable, and being just about everything didn't bring anything to table, it's just messy. He's done same album all over again since Ziltoid - Addicted/Ki era anyway, if we look at his metal albums.
> 
> Lot of ideas doesn't equal brilliant...
> 
> I will stick with my opinion about production quality and style of Time I.



I agree with you here. But Transcendence was not the most recent album he's done. I wasn't a big fan of Empath, because it falls for the same problems that Jari has -> Too many ideas at once, a lack of focus, to much of a wall of noise, too much focus on production over the musical statements, etc.

Note that I never said Devin was infallible. He's put out some stuff that's poorly produced, he did a fair amount of damage to the Lamb of God album he produced, he's put out some weird noisy stuff, he's put out music that verges on country - some of which I find almost unlistenable - but the one thing he has never done is fail to produce something or make a promise that he hasn't followed through with. He's honest and up front with what he's doing, and that's where the respect is earned from.

I mean look at Ziltoid, since you brought that up. It's produced with objectively "bad" tools, but so many people love that album. If you can produce a beloved album using drumkit from hell samples on your own, then Jari can also make an album within reasonable constraints.


----------



## gnoll

I think it's pretty obvious that Jari "could" make an album with the means he has, but I guess he doesn't want to, or at least not for Time II. Fine, I guess? I think Time I is a mess and I'm not looking forward to Time II, but whatever, he can do what he wants. I can just listen to the first album instead. But I think it must be okay to try different things with music, and to have your own visions, goals and ambitions.


----------



## SamSam

I wish Time I sounded like Dimmu Borgir or Once do... I enjoy Wintersuns music. But i am not a fan of the mix on Time I. The title track itself has a few spots which really annoy the hell out of me when I think what it could have sounded like with better production.


----------



## Alexa run my life

SamSam said:


> I wish Time I sounded like Dimmu Borgir or Once do... I enjoy Wintersuns music. But i am not a fan of the mix on Time I. The title track itself has a few spots which really annoy the hell out of me when I think what it could have sounded like with better production.


Agree it sounds kinda thin to me. The Forest Seasons sounds a little better.


----------



## CTID

gnoll said:


> I think it's pretty obvious that Jari "could" make an album with the means he has, but I guess he doesn't want to, or at least not for Time II. Fine, I guess? I think Time I is a mess and I'm not looking forward to Time II, but whatever, he can do what he wants. I can just listen to the first album instead. But I think it must be okay to try different things with music, and to have your own visions, goals and ambitions.



and that's fine. i just personally think it sets a kind of dangerous precedent that musicians who fancy themselves as musical geniuses feel it's okay to extort tens or hundreds of thousands from their fans with the promise of great music in the future when it's been shown that you can make an amazing sound album for next to nothing.

an _extremely _high end computer will cost you MAYBE $5000 if you overdo the fuck out of it, and that's really for a very high end gaming setup. You don't need 1000s of dollars worth of GPUs to produce music. throw in a couple sets of monitors and your choice of a couple amps/mics or a digital processor (helix/kemper/axe fx) or even vsts that sound great and you can put out music that 20 years ago would have cost tens or hundreds of thousands to record, for less than $10,000.

if you can't make something sound good without tens of thousands of dollars of studio equipment and outboard gear, then the problem is _you_ and not the gear


----------



## gnoll

CTID said:


> and that's fine. i just personally think it sets a kind of dangerous precedent that musicians who fancy themselves as musical geniuses feel it's okay to extort tens or hundreds of thousands from their fans with the promise of great music in the future when it's been shown that you can make an amazing sound album for next to nothing.
> 
> an _extremely _high end computer will cost you MAYBE $5000 if you overdo the fuck out of it, and that's really for a very high end gaming setup. You don't need 1000s of dollars worth of GPUs to produce music. throw in a couple sets of monitors and your choice of a couple amps/mics or a digital processor (helix/kemper/axe fx) or even vsts that sound great and you can put out music that 20 years ago would have cost tens or hundreds of thousands to record, for less than $10,000.
> 
> if you can't make something sound good without tens of thousands of dollars of studio equipment and outboard gear, then the problem is _you_ and not the gear



I think people are being a bit harsh about it. Extortion? If people want to be a part of the crowdfunding stuff then surely that's down to them and how they want to spend their money. I doubt people would pay for something like that if they felt they were getting extorted.

And where does the idea come from that Jari fancies himself a musical genius? Has he referred to himself as such or what?

I agree that a lot of money and high-end gear seems unnecessary in order to make good music, but if Jari feels he needs more money to make his vision reality and people are happy to pay, then I don't really see the problem.


----------



## Zalbu

CTID said:


> an _extremely _high end computer will cost you MAYBE $5000 if you overdo the fuck out of it, and that's really for a very high end gaming setup. You don't need 1000s of dollars worth of GPUs to produce music. throw in a couple sets of monitors and your choice of a couple amps/mics or a digital processor (helix/kemper/axe fx) or even vsts that sound great and you can put out music that 20 years ago would have cost tens or hundreds of thousands to record, for less than $10,000.


Hell, you can get a PC for like $3000-3500 with a Ryzen 9 3950X, 128 gigs of RAM and Nvidia 2080 Super, and that's about as much as they're making on their Patreon every month. If Jari is doing work that he for some reason can't run on that but 99% of every other content creator in the world can make work then he needs to outsource the rendering.


----------



## GunpointMetal

CTID said:


> if you can't make something sound good without tens of thousands of dollars of studio equipment and outboard gear, then the problem is _you_ and not the gear


 This is really the main takeaway here. Gear doesn't make better music, and if you don't know how to use it, all the greatest equipment in the world will still sound like ass.


----------



## CTID

gnoll said:


> I think people are being a bit harsh about it. Extortion? If people want to be a part of the crowdfunding stuff then surely that's down to them and how they want to spend their money. I doubt people would pay for something like that if they felt they were getting extorted.
> 
> And where does the idea come from that Jari fancies himself a musical genius? Has he referred to himself as such or what?
> 
> I agree that a lot of money and high-end gear seems unnecessary in order to make good music, but if Jari feels he needs more money to make his vision reality and people are happy to pay, then I don't really see the problem.



I'll give you that extort was probably the wrong word. On the other hand, he did a crowdfunding campaign that raised $500,000 3 years ago for an album that was already recorded and hasn't delivered on any promises that he made. No studio has been constructed, no extra material has been released. Just more promises that haven't been followed through on, and now there's a patreon that people are (of course, willingly) giving their money to in return for...what, exactly? The guy has a track record of not hitting milestones and not meeting deadlines for his label and people still line up for whatever reason with shovels full of money to throw on the pyre. More power to them but it blows me away that people are willing to give so much money to someone who the only way they could be described as "reliable" is as being unreliable.


----------



## Esp Griffyn

Can someone, perhaps a Wintersun fan, explain for me? I listened to Time 1 earlier and it absolutely didn't sound like anything special from a production perspective. Was the fund raising for a private studio intended to produce a better result the second time around?

Also, not a question that needs answering, but the singing, oh god, the singing. It's so camp.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Esp Griffyn said:


> Can someone, perhaps a Wintersun fan, explain for me? I listened to Time 1 earlier and it absolutely didn't sound like anything special from a production perspective. Was the fund raising for a private studio intended to produce a better result the second time around?
> 
> Also, not a question that needs answering, but the singing, oh god, the singing. It's so camp.


What I've gathered is that Harry Menopause thinks he'll be better at mixing if he has better equipment, but first he needs to have all of his bills paid, buy a massive property, convert it to a world-class studio/resort, and acquire some NASA-level computers to render audio before he can start mixing.


----------



## Alexa run my life

He is refusing to release music he already has recorded until he gets half a million dollars. Got it!


----------



## Esp Griffyn

Maybe he could complete the project cheaper if he sourced his equipment at ma-and-pa stores?


----------



## Edika

Maybe he needed the money to go musical production school. That shit costs money!

I kid, I kid he doesn't need any of that obviously!


----------



## j3ps3

Edika said:


> Maybe he needed the money to go musical production school. That shit costs money!
> 
> I kid, I kid he doesn't need any of that obviously!



Actually, studying's free here in Finland


----------



## Alexa run my life

Maybe he can just rent some studio time at an already existing studio.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Alexa run my life said:


> Maybe he can just rent some studio time at an already existing studio.


He could, many, many times over with the money he's already received. Unfortunately for his vision to be complete he has to do it all himself in his own facility because his creative genius cannot be properly interpreted by anyone else or in any location that his spirit does not feel at home in (or some stupid bullshit, but said in an exuberant Finnish accent.)


----------



## Edika

j3ps3 said:


> Actually, studying's free here in Finland



I know Universities are free in Finland but I'm not sure they cover music production. Even so I'm guessing there aren't places in Uni for everyone and there must be a selection process either by exams or grades. I'm sure though that there would be private music schools that teach music production that wouldn't require any of the above but might be relatively expensive. Not 500000 expensive but still...


----------



## Alexa run my life

GunpointMetal said:


> He could, many, many times over with the money he's already received. Unfortunately for his vision to be complete he has to do it all himself in his own facility because his creative genius cannot be properly interpreted by anyone else or in any location that his spirit does not feel at home in (or some stupid bullshit, but said in an exuberant Finnish accent.)


So The Forest Seasons is his "lesser" work then, in which he still wanted donations for, but yet it's not a good enough project for it to warrant his own studio with all the bells and whistles?


----------



## Leviathus

If only some oligarch would come along and buy them their HQ, give them a hefty advance, then we could wait around for music that won't be as good as the first album to not be released due to new circumstances.


----------



## works0fheart

Captain Shoggoth said:


> honestly, the S/T is one of my favourite metal albums of all time and Time I was pretty damn good too; but I crowdfunded The Forest Seasons and I thought it was a complete filler album with pretty crap production. One of my absolute teenage musical heroes, but one of my worst experiences as a consumer ever, and was absolutely blown over when he reappeared on my facebook feed this year having STILL not built his Wintersun mansion. Insulting.
> 
> Jari may well be a really nice guy but I question how smart and/or legitimately sane he is if half a million fucking euros can't deliver an album from a band that's signed to Nuclear Blast and tours with Arch Enemy. Dude is addicted to making excuses and seriously needs a manager
> 
> People making excuses for him have no idea how music is made. He could have made Time II with 1/10th of the crowdfunding money and it still would have been way more money than was necessary. Even if he is a saint, I can't see him ever getting another penny from me



Not sure how many people remember this NA tour from a few years ago, but it was Wintersun, Fleshgod Apocalypse, Arsis, and I forget who else. Anyways, some of you may also remember that Arsis had to start a crowdfund campaign to be able to stay on the tour with James Malone offering haircuts and guitar lessons to fans before shows. I went to the Tampa date of the show and every band put on a pretty good performance. I met the guys from each band that night and all of them were really cool. The Wintersun guys all seemed like good dudes, and I really enjoyed getting to talk with them and shoot the shit about music and other non-sense.

A few months later I went to see Arsis again at the same venue and got to talking with one of the guys from the band and brought up the situation that had happened when I'd last seen them about the crowdfunding to stay on tour and whatnot. So come to find out Wintersun was actually charging every band on the bill a shit ton of money to tour with them as well as covering a huge majority of the tour related expenses. This wasn't relayed to any of the bands up front and was later thrown on them by the dudes from Wintersun after the dates had been booked and the lineup was solidified. Essentially, each of these bands had to spend thousands of dollars (If I remember right Arsis had to raise like 15k or something) to be able to go on this tour with the almighty Wintersun.

From that point on (I think this was in maybe 2012 or 2013, I'm not sure) I began to become pretty skeptical of what I'd always heard about Jari for years, and that's rumors of him being a procrastinator and greedy. I can remember reading the old Wintersun forum posts by Jari himself back in like 2006 or 2007 where he was claiming that Time was already completely wrote and that he needed an insanely powerful computer to be able to record it. At some point it escalated from that to "We need a label to fund us", and then to "The label isn't taking care of us like we need them to, we need our own studio now ***complete with a sauna mind you***" This is actually after having received each of these things of course, minus the studio because for some reason that "Forest Seasons" money went somewhere else. Odd huh?

I loved the self titled album when it first came out. It's a benchmark that few bands have ever come close to touching in melodic death metal. Still though, I can't in good conscious buy into this man's bullshit anymore. Honestly, the rest of the band I consider to be just as bad as him for tagging along with him to take advantage of not own only their labels, peers in the music industry, but most importantly, their fans. They've all been dangling TIME in front of everyone like a carrot on a string just to milk more money out of people.

17 year old me loved Wintersun, but adult me isn't naive enough to think that any band out there makes good enough music to excuse this kind of behavior. Watching their Patreon video on youtube was one of the most cringe-inducing things I've seen in a long time and watching Jari's mannerisms, ie. constantly throwing his hands up in "I'm-14-and-this-looks-metal" poses every 2 seconds while he tries to push his shitty product on us like a crooked-car salesman really is the last nail in the coffin for me. The man has no respect for anyone around him and his ego and sense of entitlement is so large there's no way any record they could release would be enjoyable to me knowing that I'm giving this pretentious asshole more fuel for his toxic behavior.

I know this is quite a rant, but it's been a long time coming. I firmly believe that Jari and Wintersun are to music what EA are to video games. I'm fine with leaving the memories of listening to Battle Against Time and Winter Madness back where they were. I'd like to say Wintersun had a good run, but honestly the only people running has been the fans to catch whatever non-sense these guys throw their way with very little in return in terms of decent music. There are better bands out there in every sense of the word, and there are vastly better musicians that not only appreciate their fans more, but are also humble and good human beings.

*TL;DR* - No, Jari is not a really nice guy. Not even a little.


----------



## RoRo56

To be fair now, tour buy-ons are very very commonplace in the industry. I don't know how they could only relate this to the bands while they went on tour. Surely their management would have signed off on the touring contract before hand?


----------



## Metropolis

They probably had a contract for the tour, and it's not only for the main act to decide how financial side is handled. For that there is Nuclear Blast.

The Forest Seasons money hasn't gone anywhere. I can actually see Jari's company's sales/renovation amount from 3rd fourth of the years 2018 & 2019. It's public information in Finland and I can get more information for paying little amount of money. But I'm not that interested.

Everything else is old and you can now stop spreading fake news about their crowdfunding, and start to enjoy their music like every Wintersun fan who is not incredibly salty and butthurt about the past.

How to dangle with an album no one has never heard of... I don't even know where slandering with Jari's so called "ego" comes, these people must have problems with such things themselves. In the end Jari hasn't even scammed anything, no matter how hard some individuals try to claim that he has.

"Better bands" or human beings, that's all subjective. I will never get why people like to talk shit about things.


----------



## works0fheart

You drank the kool-aid a bit there, didn't ya bud?


----------



## Acme

Metropolis is defnitely Jari himself.


----------



## Metropolis

Acme said:


> Metropolis is defnitely Jari himself.



Hah, no. I'm like 13 years younger than he is. Just a fan since the first album.


----------



## j3ps3

Somebody needs to slap Jari's cock out of your mouth


----------



## Metropolis

j3ps3 said:


> Somebody needs to slap Jari's cock out of your mouth



That's not very nice from you...

You just must like...


----------



## JoeTech

people like jari make me wish there actually is a vengeful god


----------



## Metropolis

JoeTech said:


> people like jari make me wish there actually is a vengeful god



 That's really harsh statement without knowing him personally. What kind of person is he really, I don't know. He's just a musician.


----------



## JoeTech

yes, because you need to know a grifter personally to know _for sure_ they're a grifter.


----------



## fantom

Metropolis said:


> That's really harsh statement without knowing him personally. What kind of person is he really, I don't know. He's just a musician.



You mean a "*hobby* musician".

I don't have a problem with a band taking 10-20 years to release material if they do music as a hobby. But why make public drama and excuses all the time? Because he is trying to make music production his profession, and he sucks at it as a professional. Just think of paying a civil engineer for plans, and they take 15 years and $500k just to tell you they need to build a new studio and system to render the plans. It makes no sense.

For comparison, Brymir formed as a tribute band and wanted to fill the gap left by Wintersun before Time I was released. They now have 3 excellent full length albums with over 30 songs in less than 10 years. They didn't ask me for a dime. Wintersun has released about 7 songs in 15 years and has the balls to ask me to "donate"?

I don't think it matters what artistic process Jari has, if he is going to ask fans to give them money so he can be a professional producer focusing on a single band that barely made any music in 15 years, I'll say what I want, because I didn't start that dialog. Fans have every right to respond with criticism. He wants us to believe we are in some alternate reality where Wintersun is a high tier quality band. News flash, they aren't. Ensiferum has released like 5 or 6 albums since kicking him out. That is nearly releasing a full album for each song Wintersun released since 2004.

TL;DR Jari treats Wintersun like a hobby at best when similar musicians are more productive and not asking for anything. If he wants to solicit people to pay him, then he should be judged for his behavior and lack of product. In any other industry, he would have been fired or bankrupt long ago.



Zalbu said:


> Hell, you can get a PC for like $3000-3500 with a Ryzen 9 3950X, 128 gigs of RAM and Nvidia 2080 Super, and that's about as much as they're making on their Patreon every month. If Jari is doing work that he for some reason can't run on that but 99% of every other content creator in the world can make work then he needs to outsource the rendering.



It depends. Outboard gear isn't cheap. Plugins aren't cheap. If he is going all out on getting sound, he could spend 10k plus on ad converters. Another 5-10k on orchestra VSTs. 10k on mics. A decent amount on clean power and sound proofing. If just prepping an empty room with gear, it could easily be 50k to get studio tier gear, including all digital. And don't forget a handful of themed Daemoness guitars were essentials. 



works0fheart said:


> So come to find out Wintersun was actually charging every band on the bill a shit ton of money to tour with them as well as covering a huge majority of the tour related expenses. This wasn't relayed to any of the bands up front and was later thrown on them by the dudes from Wintersun after the dates had been booked and the lineup was solidified. Essentially, each of these bands had to spend thousands of dollars (If I remember right Arsis had to raise like 15k or something) to be able to go on this tour with the almighty Wintersun



I remember this tour and thought it was going well, definitely didn't understand why Arsis was struggling. This explains a lot. What the hell.

And I think the other band was Starkill.


----------



## Metropolis

fantom said:


> You mean a "*hobby* musician".
> 
> I don't have a problem with a band taking 10-20 years to release material if they do music as a hobby. But why make public drama and excuses all the time? Because he is trying to make music production his profession, and he sucks at it as a professional. Just think of paying a civil engineer for plans, and they take 15 years and $500k just to tell you they need to build a new studio and system to render the plans. It makes no sense.
> 
> For comparison, Brymir formed as a tribute band and wanted to fill the gap left by Wintersun before Time I was released. They now have 3 excellent full length albums with over 30 songs in less than 10 years. They didn't ask me for a dime. Wintersun has released about 7 songs in 15 years and has the balls to ask me to "donate"?
> 
> I don't think it matters what artistic process Jari has, if he is going to ask fans to give them money so he can be a professional producer focusing on a single band that barely made any music in 15 years, I'll say what I want, because I didn't start that dialog. Fans have every right to respond with criticism. He wants us to believe we are in some alternate reality where Wintersun is a high tier quality band. News flash, they aren't. Ensiferum has released like 5 or 6 albums since kicking him out. That is nearly releasing a full album for each song Wintersun released since 2004.
> 
> TL;DR Jari treats Wintersun like a hobby at best when similar musicians are more productive and not asking for anything. If he wants to solicit people to pay him, then he should be judged for his behavior and lack of product. In any other industry, he would have been fired or bankrupt long ago.



Their last North-American tour was in 2018, it's not a hobby thing to do that with biggest metal record label in world. And I don't like to measure bands with how much material they have released. Making creative art is now same thing as making plans for a house?

Brymir isn't even a tribute band, and they sounded like old Ensiferum in their first demo songs. They are not filling any gaps here. Actually Brymir is the real hobby band here, if we look at things. Don't want to bash them in anyway, because I like them very much too. Again no one has asked to "donate", they sold a product, simple as that. Why can't you stretch that to 15 and a half or so years, and say that Wintersun released three great albums with 17 songs? I can do that for you...

Claiming that Wintesun isn't a high tier band is a wast underestimation, and they didn't kick Jari out from Ensiferum. Jari wanted to focus on Wintersun at the time when Ensiferum was booking their first European tour and he decided to leave because of that.

But because these criticizing fans know better how his creative process works, and they know everything about how other bands work by making pointless comparisons based on them. These people even seem to know where all the crowdfunding money went and how financial matters are handled in Wintersun, so why Jari can't already release those goddamn five albums he has written already?

How should anyone know, I'm just patiently waiting that some day it (Time II) happens.


----------



## fantom

Metropolis said:


> so why Jari can't already release those goddamn five albums he has written already



This is the problem. If Wintersun doesn't release them, everything you say doesn't change that they released 7 songs in 15 years. We've been hearing the "songs are written" preaching since 2006 and he still hasn't released the whole album. If Brymir is the real hobby band, how are they outpacing the professional band by 5x?


----------



## fantom

Metropolis said:


> and they didn't kick Jari out from Ensiferum



The official statement that Jari wrote:

_
"... The guys thought they wouldn't wait for me and they had to go on this tour, even without me. So they decided to try to find a replacement and kick me out of the band..."
_
He picked Wintersun. The band said keeping him in the band with Wintersun as a priority "_would lead to the boredom and eventual break-up in the band.*_


----------



## Metropolis

fantom said:


> The official statement that Jari wrote:
> 
> _
> "... The guys thought they wouldn't wait for me and they had to go on this tour, even without me. So they decided to try to find a replacement and kick me out of the band..."
> _
> He picked Wintersun. The band said keeping him in the band with Wintersun as a priority "_would lead to the boredom and eventual break-up in the band.*_



Where is that from? Oh, found it. This is the whole section. https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/ensiferum-part-ways-with-frontman-seek-replacement/

*"So the rest of the guys and me had to make some difficult choices. The guys thought they wouldn't wait for me and they had to go on this tour, even without me. So they decided to try to find a replacement and kick me out of the band. I can understand their decision and I hold no grudge. I'm just sad that things had to go this way. I would have chosen both ENSIFERUM and my music, but since that wasn't possible, my choice was clear.*_*"*_

I didn't remember this whole thing from word to word, but I found couple of old interviews with similar phrasing. Jari is still in good relations with Ensiferum guys though, no matter what happened back then. Was it like "kicked" literally or did he just chose Wintersun, or maybe both is bit unclear to me. Seems it was both.


----------



## Dayn

I just still don't understand the hate. Very little has been released. But for those who crowdfunded The Forest Seasons, we got exactly what we were promised. I'd certainly want a bit more for Patreon, but I haven't supported anyone for Patreon yet. It's pretty clear what you get for your money.

It's like people think they already own and are entitled to Time II. It doesn't exist and you haven't paid for it. There's nothing to get upset about. If you want to support a band with the rewards on Patreon, do - if not, don't. I'm a massive Wintersun fan, but I find it difficult to give a shit unless I can get a concrete product like The Forest Seasons, so I just check in now and again. Yeah, Jari rubs people the wrong way and their productivity is minimal compared to other bands. But I don't see where people have been scammed. I've gotten exactly what I bargained for.

If anyone has given money and not gotten what they were promised, I'd... well, I wouldn't love to hear it, as that would be very sad. But you'd think something against them would exist if it wasn't just a personality and productivity issue. All it seems to be is toxic Facebook drama.


----------



## works0fheart

Metropolis said:


> It's like people think they already own and are entitled to Time II.



I don't feel like anyone here feels that the album is owed to them so much as any sort of output at all after the money they've raked in. There are certainly people like that, but for the most part people are mad that the guy continuously pulls this "Well factor _____ is preventing Time 2 from being released" and then when said factor is fulfilled nothing comes of it. That's the big issue everyone has and why people call him for what he appears to be; greedy, and unprofessional.



> But I don't see where people have been scammed.


Then it's not that you're not looking hard enough, it's that you're not looking at all. Read the part where he's scammed other bands via tours, his label by not releasing material (not just Time 2, literally anything), and his fans by somehow receiving half a million dollars from a crowdfunding campaign back in 2017 and still having no studio or album progress to show for it. In good news though, Jari got some nice new Daemoness guitars though right?



> If anyone has given money and not gotten what they were promised, I'd... well, I wouldn't love to hear it


Welp, prepare to not love to read this reply.

But just to be safe, let's go and back this with the bands own words.

From their own Indiegogo page.


> All the raised funds will be *used to build the Wintersun Headquarters*. This will *enable us to finish TIME II without compromises* with our true vision!



And yet, here we are in 2020, making compromises for a band that just received the buyout they were requesting.

But wait, let's go deeper, just so we're clear so you can "see where people have been scammed". We all know that they raised $500k, but how much exactly is this studio going to cost?



> *Budget for Wintersun Headquarters*
> We've consulted professional construction companies and studio builders and gotten the estimated budget:
> 
> 
> The property 100.000 €
> The building 250.000 €
> Construction of the studio 150.000 €
> Additional costs: Finnish taxes (& Indiegogo platform fee 5% + credit card fee 3%) 250.000 €
> Total: 750.000 €
> To raise all this funding we are planning to do three massive crowdfunding campaigns like this first one. Each one with a different massive 50 € package. We hope to reach 5000 loyal Wintersun fans per each campaign, which is the ideal goal. (The future campaigns will be planned and scheduled according to the result of this first campaign).
> 
> 5000 funders x 50 € = 250.000 € IDEAL GOAL!!! (Reached in 9 days!)
> 
> But we are setting a safe goal to 3000 funders to secure the album release and get started even if we don't reach the ideal goal:
> 
> *3000 funders x 50 € = 150.000 €*
> *SAFE GOAL FOR ALBUM RELEASE! *



So, let's look at their initial goal of 3000 funders. Whoa, look, it's a safe goal for the album release! And it was met! Yay!

Next we have the 5000 funders goal. Oh goodness, it was met within 9 days! They actually raised the 250.000€ super quickly! This sounds like our good old buddies in Wintersun are going to get their HQ! 

So with this amount of money ($524,328 or €464,438) the property should be purchased and construction of the studio should have begun. Nice! Considering how much Jari loves to show off everything that he ever does, including changing pickups, going to singing only, and getting new guitars, I'm sure I can find a youtube video or blog post about the construction of the building starting or at least the property being purchased and how good of news that is for Wintersun fans, am I right?

Oh wow, google search results found nothing on the matter other than returning me to their Indiegogo page. Well that's unfortunate.

Well, maybe the place is just a lot of money and I don't fully understand what goes into building a studio? What exactly are we looking at here?

According to Google, a tried and true source, single family homes go for around €250,000 to €500,000 (or $280,000 to $560,000). Not too shabby. However, larger, more luxurious homes are around €750,000 or upwards of €1,000,000 ($840,000 - $1,000,000+). So it seems housing in Finland is generally about the same as our housing is in the USA, in most high population areas. Just so we're clear though, housing prices are generally calculated by total square footage. 

Now, if we're still going to try to make the argument of a studio and a home being drastically different things, we can go that route as well. Seems fair enough. So what does it cost to build a studio then? Now, according to my tried and true, ever reliable source, Google, *a professional studio* typically starts at around $40,000 and can ramp up into the millions for extremely luxurious studios. In case this needs to be noted, these high end studios are those owned by multi-million dollar producers and things of that sort. Think Kanye West. Now think Jari. These two things are not the same. Jari is not Kanye and Kanye is not Jari.

Now, if I had $530,000 I could realistically get myself a pretty large house in Finland or certainly the most badass studio I could ever want. To be fair though, perhaps I'm missing what exactly is going into this place. Let's have a look at the floor plan.






Now, before I even look into what's going into this studio, let's just take note that this building is about the size of a standard house. Nothing too crazy in terms of costs per square foot at the end of the day, and according to Jari, the size of this property is really only worth about 100.000 €. Not bad. Alright, so what exactly is going into this place that the band is definitely building completely with the mindset of releasing material and delivering on their words?

Okay, so we've got a machine room, a cab mic'ing room, a control room, a rehearsal room, and... a living room? Okay, I guess we all need breaks sometimes. What else? Oh, a bedroom. Well I guess sometimes in the studio you can end up working pretty long hours and it's hard to drive to your own home even though the studio is being purchased in the area you live, effectively providing to you this convenience already. In any case, circumstances may arise where you need this. Whoa man, we've also got a kitchen? Hell yeah! Now I don't have to go out into the nearby town to where I live to cook food, I can just do it at work so I can more efficiently get this album out! Well, I guess it could be essential if we're going to be there this often. We've also got a toilet and showers because hygiene is pretty important, especially when you're working your ass off in the studio all day. You know what else is essential when you're working hard all day? Relaxation. For that reason, a sauna definitely was not a luxury, it's clearly a necessity /s. 

Now, to leave all of that alone, this place has a pretty realistic size and should be well into being built. Prices of equipment for recording can get expensive, except for as mentioned above, it should really only range from $40,000 to $100,000. At this point you can record just about anything you damn well please right down to detecting an insect fart and mixing it into a masterpiece or making Time 2. 

So at this point we've accounted for around $140,000 to $250,000 of this crowdfunding campaign. 

*Oh yes, we're only halfway done boys.*


----------



## works0fheart

Now, we've still got a whole other $280,000 to work with. Hell yeah, this is great news! What else do we have to cover? 

Whoa! The building is going to take about 250.000 €! That's crazy! Wait... What exactly... Does that mean? So, we've got the construction, we've bought the property... Isn't building the same as construction? No joke, maybe I'm misinterpreting this part. So maybe what it means is the building itself is going to cost 250.000€. Well shit, I guess that means Jari is planning on buying over $150,000 on recording equipment alone? Well, I guess that's not unheard of, but still pretty damned steep. At this rate the insect farts thing may well come to fruition after all.

Well if that's the case, we've pretty much accounted for the full amount of the money raised at this point. The only thing not covered are the taxes that are listed. Well, I guess that really just throws a wrench in ever-

WHOA! Hey look! Wintersun met their initial goal of 150,000€!!!! That's the "Safe goal for album release!" We'll definitely get Time 2 now by supporting our favorite ba-

OH MY GOD! Look! Wintersun met their second goal of 250,000€!!!! Remember guys, that's the "IDEAL GOAL"!!! We've not only secured the album release but built our favorite band a studio! What could they possibly do if they had nearly double this amou-

*OH MY LAWRD*

They've actually done it! The mad lads have raised half a million dollars! My favorite band will definitely release Time 2 now like they said and the other 4 albums worth of material that Jari has claimed he has wrote! There's no way at all that they'd earn all of this money and have nothing to show for it other than high end Daemoness guitars... Right? ... Guys?

And here we are.

3 years later.

Oh, look, a Patreon page? Wow dude, I can't wait to pay for the privilege of talking to my favorite band via the internet! Exclusive pictures! Wow dude! No way! Now I can pay to see Jari's nuclear luminescent face whenever I want?! Whoa! Don't forget, I also get access to their live videos that I certainly could not find anywhere else on the internet, namely a site that starts with a Y and ends in a -outube that I also just watched this very patreon announcement!!! But wait, there's more! Look, I get to see the band frolick around hotel hallways and cruise ships! Hell yeah! Now not only can I pay to watch my favorite bands shenanigans, I can sizzle my retinas to ash when I witness the sun reflect off of Jari's body on a cruise ship! What more could I want?! Dude, don't forget! This is helping us support our favorite band! I'm sure if we throw our money at them this time we'll surely get new material! It's not like it's been 17 years since their inception and they've only released 24 songs in that time!

Oh... Damn... Turns out, that is the case... Well, 24 songs is a lot right! Not many bands put that much work into their albums, and if they do, they don't release much music either!

Devin Townsend has released 19+ albums by his own band in as much time with less budget out of a pure labor of love and hard work ethic.


Whoa, who said that?! Devin Townsend doesn't make music nearly as complex or heavy!! Haha, haters, try again!

Equilibrium have released 6 albums in as much time with somewhere over 55 songs.


Well, Equilibrium only really had like 2 good albums! It's not like they shred as hard either!

Children of Bodom released 7 albums in just as mu-

Stop it!

Kalmah released 6 amazing albums in just as much time.


Time? What's that about Time? You'll get it when it's done, stop asking! You people are so entitled! Our true fans would throw money at us no questions asked!

This is a long post, so I'm going to close it out with this. Stop defending people who very blatantly take advantage of others. You're only re-enforcing shitty behavior. It's happening in nearly every industry imaginable now days because people are so quick to shell out their money before actually receiving a product, and unless people stop, it's not going to change. It's only going to get worse, if anything. So yes, you can sit here and try to convince yourself that you're not throwing fuel on the fire, but Time will tell, as it already has. Sorry, not sorry for the hot take, but it's 2020 and Jari is a scum bag and there are better bands by now. The self-titled was awesome in 2004. It is not 2004. Stop throwing your money at these people and expecting a different outcome.

Or maybe go ahead. Some people have to learn the hard way. I leave you with this now.


----------



## Dayn

But we crowdfunded an album. We got the album and other perks as advertised. We were never investors in a recording studio. That's what they wanted to do, but shit often doesn't pan out, especially when artists (particularly artists without much business acumen) start making lofty goals.

You weren't given a business proposal. You weren't an investor in a recording studio. You weren't entitled to any dividends. You weren't given a business plan. You weren't given designs and quotations for a recording studio. You weren't paying for a different album. You got a specific album with perks, exactly as advertised. You need a reality check. Your sense of entitlement is as ill-formed as Jari's aspirations.


----------



## works0fheart

Learn some reading comprehension please, because right now you're clearly not understanding. Wrong. We did not crowdfund an album. We crowdfunded the building of a studio by purchasing an album. This is exactly how kickstarter and indiegogo work. And by "We" I didn't purchase anything, nor would I ever for a band like this.

You're right, we weren't given a business proposal or business plan, but the backers were essentially paying for this stuff with the intent in mind of helping to pay for a studio. If you think otherwise you're blatantly wrong. And in case you hadn't noticed by the picture up top, there was a design given for this studio. Hard to spot next to the burning light of the Sun, I know.

As for my entitlement, I could care less about a release from this band at this point. As I've said several times (Again, reading is hard, I know) this band was cool to me for like a year in 2004. The hype ended so long ago that I don't remember what it feels like.
As for my reality check, it hasn't been wrote out to Jari so I guess that doesn't work for you.

It seems Jari's glowing face blinded you from reading anything that I posted. Please put on some tanning goggles, re-read my post with fact checks from the band itself, and try bouncing some neurons around until the jumble of words up there go from "JaRi Is BaD, WinTeRSuN bAd" to actual information, because it's very much people like you and Metropolis here that need a reality check.


----------



## Dwellingers

This is Pure GOLD!


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Dayn said:


> It's like people think they already own and are entitled to Time II. It doesn't exist and you haven't paid for it.



One of the biggest complaints fans had was they paid for an album and only got half of one. Then the same thing happened for the forest seasons, fans basically got half an album again.


----------



## Captain Shoggoth

alerts for this thread are reminding me what a snooooooooooooooze forest seasons was, me and my friend who went halfsies on crowdfunding havent discussed that album since the day we downloaded it

weird that jari has decided that he is too cool for shredding when the strength of wintersun s/t was the riffs and mega solos, even if time ii is released before the heat death of the universe i have a suspicion itll be even more of an overblown disjointed film score than time i and the forest seasons already were

@works0fheart long time no see! ty for the insight re: that tour, that financial breakdown was great as well. hope you are keeping well <3


----------



## Kovah

Captain Shoggoth said:


> alerts for this thread are reminding me what a snooooooooooooooze forest seasons was, me and my friend who went halfsies on crowdfunding havent discussed that album since the day we downloaded it
> 
> weird that jari has decided that he is too cool for shredding when the strength of wintersun s/t was the riffs and mega solos, even if time ii is released before the heat death of the universe i have a suspicion itll be even more of an overblown disjointed film score than time i and the forest seasons already were
> 
> @works0fheart long time no see! ty for the insight re: that tour, that financial breakdown was great as well. hope you are keeping well <3



Same here, I listened to the whole album only once. The only song I come back to is Loneliness. The rest is just meh and there's something that I really hate. I'm not sure if it's the guitar tone/mixing or even the mastering but for some reason it's very muddy.


----------



## InHiding

I've never really listened to this band so I gave it a chance. Time is an average/good song, very typical songwriting, nothing special. Some good solo work. The vocals are on the weak side tbh. Why exactly are people throwing away money to this guy? Just because he layers a lot of stuff on his songs? In his position I would never build a studio, I would just pocket all the money... or maybe he is actually building a home that will be in temporary "headquarters" for a few months until the dust settles off. That's probably smarter. Pretty sure this is a scam or will transform into one.


----------



## Antiproduct

works0fheart said:


> Now, we've still got a whole other $280,000 to work with. Hell yeah, this is great news! What else do we have to cover?
> 
> Whoa! The building is going to take about 250.000 €! That's crazy! Wait... What exactly... Does that mean? So, we've got the construction, we've bought the property... Isn't building the same as construction? No joke, maybe I'm misinterpreting this part. So maybe what it means is the building itself is going to cost 250.000€. Well shit, I guess that means Jari is planning on buying over $150,000 on recording equipment alone? Well, I guess that's not unheard of, but still pretty damned steep. At this rate the insect farts thing may well come to fruition after all.
> 
> Well if that's the case, we've pretty much accounted for the full amount of the money raised at this point. The only thing not covered are the taxes that are listed. Well, I guess that really just throws a wrench in ever-
> 
> WHOA! Hey look! Wintersun met their initial goal of 150,000€!!!! That's the "Safe goal for album release!" We'll definitely get Time 2 now by supporting our favorite ba-
> 
> OH MY GOD! Look! Wintersun met their second goal of 250,000€!!!! Remember guys, that's the "IDEAL GOAL"!!! We've not only secured the album release but built our favorite band a studio! What could they possibly do if they had nearly double this amou-
> 
> *OH MY LAWRD*
> 
> They've actually done it! The mad lads have raised half a million dollars! My favorite band will definitely release Time 2 now like they said and the other 4 albums worth of material that Jari has claimed he has wrote! There's no way at all that they'd earn all of this money and have nothing to show for it other than high end Daemoness guitars... Right? ... Guys?
> 
> And here we are.
> 
> 3 years later.
> 
> Oh, look, a Patreon page? Wow dude, I can't wait to pay for the privilege of talking to my favorite band via the internet! Exclusive pictures! Wow dude! No way! Now I can pay to see Jari's nuclear luminescent face whenever I want?! Whoa! Don't forget, I also get access to their live videos that I certainly could not find anywhere else on the internet, namely a site that starts with a Y and ends in a -outube that I also just watched this very patreon announcement!!! But wait, there's more! Look, I get to see the band frolick around hotel hallways and cruise ships! Hell yeah! Now not only can I pay to watch my favorite bands shenanigans, I can sizzle my retinas to ash when I witness the sun reflect off of Jari's body on a cruise ship! What more could I want?! Dude, don't forget! This is helping us support our favorite band! I'm sure if we throw our money at them this time we'll surely get new material! It's not like it's been 17 years since their inception and they've only released 24 songs in that time!
> 
> Oh... Damn... Turns out, that is the case... Well, 24 songs is a lot right! Not many bands put that much work into their albums, and if they do, they don't release much music either!
> 
> Devin Townsend has released 19+ albums by his own band in as much time with less budget out of a pure labor of love and hard work ethic.
> 
> 
> Whoa, who said that?! Devin Townsend doesn't make music nearly as complex or heavy!! Haha, haters, try again!
> 
> Equilibrium have released 6 albums in as much time with somewhere over 55 songs.
> 
> 
> Well, Equilibrium only really had like 2 good albums! It's not like they shred as hard either!
> 
> Children of Bodom released 7 albums in just as mu-
> 
> Stop it!
> 
> Kalmah released 6 amazing albums in just as much time.
> 
> 
> Time? What's that about Time? You'll get it when it's done, stop asking! You people are so entitled! Our true fans would throw money at us no questions asked!
> 
> This is a long post, so I'm going to close it out with this. Stop defending people who very blatantly take advantage of others. You're only re-enforcing shitty behavior. It's happening in nearly every industry imaginable now days because people are so quick to shell out their money before actually receiving a product, and unless people stop, it's not going to change. It's only going to get worse, if anything. So yes, you can sit here and try to convince yourself that you're not throwing fuel on the fire, but Time will tell, as it already has. Sorry, not sorry for the hot take, but it's 2020 and Jari is a scum bag and there are better bands by now. The self-titled was awesome in 2004. It is not 2004. Stop throwing your money at these people and expecting a different outcome.
> 
> Or maybe go ahead. Some people have to learn the hard way. I leave you with this now.




This...is your magnum opus

On topic: I don't think that Jari is planning on ripping people off. I think he just massively sucks with time and money management.


----------



## Jonathan20022

This is a horrifying blunder from an audience's perspective. People should really value their money more instead of enabling "artists" to do whatever they please.

Reading the last 10 or so pages gives me as much insight as I need to know, Jari has somehow convinced a number of his audience members that his process is *justified*. So while generous Wintersun fans slave at a job and throw money their way whenever they ask, Jari sits in his hot tub and building paid for entirely by his fans 

He should convert his building into a free museum to show their fans what they put their hard earned money into.


----------



## works0fheart

Captain Shoggoth said:


> alerts for this thread are reminding me what a snooooooooooooooze forest seasons was, me and my friend who went halfsies on crowdfunding havent discussed that album since the day we downloaded it
> 
> weird that jari has decided that he is too cool for shredding when the strength of wintersun s/t was the riffs and mega solos, even if time ii is released before the heat death of the universe i have a suspicion itll be even more of an overblown disjointed film score than time i and the forest seasons already were
> 
> @works0fheart long time no see! ty for the insight re: that tour, that financial breakdown was great as well. hope you are keeping well <3



Hey man, glad to see you're still around as well! I hope all is well and you're still shredding as hard as I remember lol. Shoot me a message sometime, it'd be nice to catch up!



Frostod said:


> This...is your magnum opus
> 
> On topic: I don't think that Jari is planning on ripping people off. I think he just massively sucks with *time* and money management.



You don't say 
Sorry, it's such low hanging fruit at this point that it's ridiculous.


----------



## Zalbu

fantom said:


> It depends. Outboard gear isn't cheap. Plugins aren't cheap. If he is going all out on getting sound, he could spend 10k plus on ad converters. Another 5-10k on orchestra VSTs. 10k on mics. A decent amount on clean power and sound proofing. If just prepping an empty room with gear, it could easily be 50k to get studio tier gear, including all digital. And don't forget a handful of themed Daemoness guitars were essentials.


Jaris complaints about his computer haven't been about the audio quality itself, for that he complains about how his Axe-Fx isn't good enough because of electrical interference or whatever the complaint was. His complaint was that he doesn't have enough computer horsepower to handle a trillion orchestral tracks.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Zalbu said:


> Jaris complaints about his computer haven't been about the audio quality itself, for that he complains about how his Axe-Fx isn't good enough because of electrical interference or whatever the complaint was. His complaint was that he doesn't have enough computer horsepower to handle a trillion orchestral tracks.


 And most of these issues are mitigated by learning your hardware and considering arrangement instead of throwing money at it.


----------



## CrushingAnvil

InHiding said:


> I've never really listened to this band so I gave it a chance. Time is an average/good song, very typical songwriting, nothing special. Some good solo work. The vocals are on the weak side tbh. Why exactly are people throwing away money to this guy? Just because he layers a lot of stuff on his songs? In his position I would never build a studio, I would just pocket all the money... or maybe he is actually building a home that will be in temporary "headquarters" for a few months until the dust settles off. That's probably smarter. Pretty sure this is a scam or will transform into one.



Uhhhh okay. Jari is a really good dude and a talented musician. Funny how you haven't been following the band, listening to their music, and don't know anything about the members, but are ready to write this off as a scam. If you don't know why there's so much hype, then listen to their self-titled album. Wouldn't suggest listening to Time as the intro to the band. Would recommend Winter Madness, Battle Against Time, and of course Beyond the Dark Sun.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Lol, it's symphonic metal not the second coming of the Lord.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Gonna be some striking parallels to ol' Kenny when it's 2030 and Time II is still *coming*.



"It takes a lot of money to do what we do"


----------



## Leviathus

Captain Shoggoth said:


> the strength of wintersun s/t was the riffs and mega solos


Yahtzee!!!


----------



## fantom

InHiding said:


> I've never really listened to this band so I gave it a chance. Time is an average/good song, very typical songwriting, nothing special. Some good solo work. The vocals are on the weak side tbh. Why exactly are people throwing away money to this guy? Just because he layers a lot of stuff on his songs? In his position I would never build a studio, I would just pocket all the money... or maybe he is actually building a home that will be in temporary "headquarters" for a few months until the dust settles off. That's probably smarter. Pretty sure this is a scam or will transform into one.





CrushingAnvil said:


> Uhhhh okay. Jari is a really good dude and a talented musician. Funny how you haven't been following the band, listening to their music, and don't know anything about the members, but are ready to write this off as a scam. If you don't know why there's so much hype, then listen to their self-titled album. Wouldn't suggest listening to Time as the intro to the band. Would recommend Winter Madness, Battle Against Time, and of course Beyond the Dark Sun.



No idea how you know "Jari is a really good dude". I won't even try to debate it since I don't know him personally. The s/t album came out in 2004! You can't use that album to justify any hype in 2020. Ya, it had good tracks for what it was, but it wasn't game-changing or amazing. I wouldn't even say it was top album of the decade. It was a mediocre release with maybe 3 solid tracks. I actually think Time is a much better album (even with only 3 actual songs). So maybe you are hyped about Jari taking hundreds of thousands of dollars from fans to build his dream house because he released 8 songs in 2004 that blew your mind, but the band hasn't even released 8 more songs in 15 years.

For my "creds", I have followed Wintersun since Ensiferum. I agree with everything @InHiding said with a single exception: I think the vocals (especially when all of them do different vocal parts) are top-notch. In fact, seeing them do vocals live is the only thing that sets Wintersun apart to me. Does that give the opinion more validity?

Do I think Jari is trying to scam people? No. But that's about the same as saying I don't think Bernie Rico Jr. was trying to scam people. I also don't think Daikatana or Duke Nukem Forever devs were trying to ruin their projects. After a few years... or decades even, that is what it turns into. People get in over their heads with no way out besides *delivering on promises*. Do I hate the guy? No. Do I think what he is doing is unethical and selfish? Yes. He is taking advantage of people to improve his quality of life whether that is his intent or not. This is pretty much the same thing as a fancy church to me. Asking people to donate so they can preach how awesome they are.

If your goal is just to throw money at an artist for something they did 16 years ago, I won't say you are wrong. If anything, that is really generous, and they are lucky you are a fan. But if you are saying that money is providing them the life-conditions they need to produce more in the future, well, that is dumb. At least with true "investors" (like Nuclear Blast), the people who support the artist are rewarded with profits if things pan out well (unlike Nuclear Blast). This kickstarter/patreon style is ridiculous though. *Fans take all of the risk with none of the rewards*. And that risk was taken *after* their investor publicly stated that they had stopped giving additional money and had the original project pulled down from Kickstarter.

As mentioned in this thread, the only way to stop this kind of crappy behavior is for fans to stop buying into it or be more selective and critical about who they are buying into.


----------



## Nag

I'm sorry if I won't really react to the latest posts in this thread, or even the latest news on the whole Wintersun debacle, but... yeah, just emptying my thoughts here.

I really want to like Jari Mäenpää. His first Wintersun album was great, the other Wintersun stuff isn't bad either, the two records he did with Ensiferum (especially the first one, for me, I know most people prefer Iron to the self-titled but eh). But what the serious fucking fuck. He's given countless updates on "Time" since 2006. Many of them being excuses (writer's block, computer stopped working...). But he said stuff in there that I do remember. Apparently, all the songs for "Time" ARE written. He said that at some point, I don't even want to look it back up because I friggin remember it. He even said they were recorded at some point as well. Or that some parts were recorded at least. I don't care how much of a perfectionist he is, and how many keyboard layered tracks his songs need. Either he lied, or he tossed away most of the material that should originally have been on "Time" (if not all of it) and started re-thinking the album entirely. Maybe he's a bit megalomaniac, too (that "maybe" mostly is me being polite). If you tell me he can't record his album with the average gear every musician can get, seriously, he needs to get some things straight.

When he left Ensiferum, Petri Lindroos from Norther stepped in and Norther kinda started to suck (and Ensiferum became a bit weird) until they disbanded. Then Wintersun barely delivered anything. Maybe Jari should just keep on joining bands and recording self-titled albums, because IMO that's what he's done best in his career.


----------



## couverdure

Time II is to Jari as Star Citizen is to Chris Roberts.


----------



## Antiproduct

couverdure said:


> Time II is to Jari as Star Citizen is to Chris Roberts.



Well Star Citizen is playable in some form right now, Time II is not more than a promise.


----------



## Merrekof

A little off topic but I suddenly remember that project, God of Atheist. An all star Norwegian band with Asgeir, Ihsahn, Trym, Vortex.. I got hyped back in 2013 but all I ever heard from them was some studio and recording footage on youtube. They didn't, as far as I know, ask for any money. My best guess is they were writing and recording an album with only their own money, gear, time and passion.

Wintersun has the biggest label and fans who literally throw money at them, yet they still can't release a new album. Why fans still support them is beyond me..


----------



## mehegama

has anyone seen the latest update??? comedy gold


----------



## Metropolis

mehegama said:


> has anyone seen the latest update??? comedy gold



Only comedy gold is the butthurt "fans" who are whining about the "facts" in facebook comment section  But he should probably get a new computer for running those hundreds of tracks he has, few years old computer with 16-core processor doesn't cut it anymore and plugins are getting more and more demanding in that regard.

Jari's reaction to those ;


----------



## mehegama

Metropolis said:


> Only comedy gold is the butthurt "fans" who are whining about the "facts" in facebook comment section  But he should probably get a new computer for running those hundreds of tracks he has, few years old computer with 16-core processor doesn't cut it anymore and plugins are getting more and more demanding in that regard.
> 
> Jari's reaction to those ;



butthurt? I could not care less if he builds a villa in the carribean and fly away with the cf money. I enjoy wintersun but their operating model is a bit greedy


----------



## Lorcan Ward

I’d never imagine back in 2007/2008 that Time still wasn’t out properly. I thought they’d be at Dimmu Borgir level now with multiple albums and huge live shows back then. I’m pretty sure I read the exact same post back in 2008 on the Wintersun website.

I don’t like to compare bands but I find Aether Realm has itched my Wintersun needs.


----------



## Boris_VTR

mehegama said:


> has anyone seen the latest update??? comedy gold


Care to share more details?


----------



## Metropolis

Boris_VTR said:


> Care to share more details?



*Tldr; Just an update what happened during release of The Forest Seasons. There is four new album concepts going on and some of those are being recorded and released in coming years. Jari is happy about making music and current progress... He has some computer problems which are inevitable when things evolve, get more demanding in terms of cpu heavyness, and you have to upgrade to keep up.* *He's been iMac user for a long time and doesn't want to build a PC from what I get from Wintersun forum and his comments in Facebook... or who knows, maybe he'll think about it. Because performance/price ratio and customizability beats pre-built Apple systems miles beyond.*

_"There's been many requests for updates on what's been happening. We have been updating and answering questions, but apparently people are not seeing these updates because of the Facebook algorithms. We hope that this update would reach as many people as possible, so there would be less confusion about what's going on with Wintersun. In order to reach many people, please do share this post, comment and like! This will kick the algorithms ass!

Since the release of The Forest Seasons we have been dealing with the aftermath of our crowdfunding and we've been on touring mode for almost 3 years. The touring period was also quite the challenge with lot of big changes going on in the band: Introducing a new guitar player to the band (Asim), Jari dropping the live guitar, finding a new live crew, new live gear setups, rehearsing with new members, creating and dealing with new merch, all the tour arrangements and logistics etc.

Also we had to find session players to cover for Kai, since he has been very busy with Nightwish. We were very lucky to have such great drummers like Timo, Rolf and Heikki to help us out! Also we were lucky to find amazing people for our live crew. So with a lot of "moving parts" the three years were a big challenge and the busiest we've ever been, but luckily in the end everything went quite smoothly, so we are very thankful!

I've been dealing with a lot of big life changes too. One of them has been moving to a new place where I am currently building a temporary "semi studio" and also building a whole new DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) setup from scratch in order to make albums more efficiently. The "semi studio" and the new DAW are almost finished and hopefully won't take too much time anymore. There will be more updates on this when everything is finished.

ABOUT NEW MUSIC AND TIME II
You want the good news or the bad news first? Ok, let's go with the bad first...
So right now the music making is just starting after the long and intensive touring period. I have still worked on music every chance I've gotten (which hasn't been a lot unfortunately). Right now I'm working on four new albums. Yes, one of the four albums is TIME II. I've tried to work on it with the new Mac Pro and I was really hoping that the new Mac Pro would solve the issue of lack of CPU power, but even the new 16-core Mac Pro can't really handle these huge projects very well. Which was a huge disappointment. The projects open with 90% CPU usage without even plugins in the projects yet. So the projects already are very slow and once I start to add plugins in order to mix the CPU starts to spike, so I don't know what to tell you. I don't want to compromise to mix it only with couple of light plugins, like I had to mix TIME I. Also I haven't found a proper kick, snare and rhythm guitar sound for this album yet and I've been looking like crazy! So I'm not really excited at all to start mixing TIME II until I find these essential sounds and have more CPU to mix. And without a proper studio (a proper mixing room with proper acoustic treatment) it is incredible difficult to mix this kinda heavily layered stuff anyways.

Here's the good news...
There are also three other new albums that I'm working on and I'm very excited about these projects. One is the "space metal" project that I've already talked about a little bit. One is a more "traditional Wintersun" style album, kinda mix between the debut and TIME albums, but also with lots of new dimensions and some of the best melodies I've ever written! The third album style I want to keep a secret for now, gotta have some mystery! But it's probably the one that I'm the most excited about currently and the one that has been progressing the fastest. I've got a whole concept for it (a whole new "Wintersun world") and I've already written a lot of lyrics for it as well, but I don't know yet if it will be the next one. I'm working on all these albums in turns, because I get bored and "foggy" if I work on the same project / same songs for too long. But right now this project already has a killer mix going, it has the RIGHT sounds. Which is great, because that's always the hardest part for me making an album (especially finding a good kick, snare and the rhythm guitar sound).

Now, I don't know when any of these albums will be finished or released, THERE IS NO PROMISES! I'm just starting out after a long chaotic period. A new Wintersun album might come sooner or later or it might not ever come! You'll never know the future! I want to make these albums without too much pressure and enjoy the process, so there won't be compromises like there always have been in the past, which have left me in huge disappointments and taken away some of the enthusiasm to make music.

I can say this though... Thanks to our crowdfunding and the amazing support from you guys, things have been progressing much more nicely than ever before. I'm really having goosebumps again and chills working on new music and having fun with it! Being able to build this "semi studio" is helping me and the process a lot! It's not a full on studio yet, but parts of this "semi studio" is already a dream come true for me! So thank you! You guys are the best!

Once any of these albums is finished, we will start updating more about the release and the new crowdfunding. So please stay patient for now. There will be more updates here and there about the progress. So stay EverTuned!
Thanks!"
-Jari_


----------



## GunpointMetal

This dude is so excited about his excuses for not actually being productive. I guarantee if he's opening projects at 90% CPU he either has no freaking clue what he's doing inside the DAW, he's lying, or 150 of the 300 tracks do not even need to exist. 

This shit is absolutely hilarious to me, so I'm happy for the update.


----------



## Kovah

His reason for not getting a PC is even more hilarious.

"I won't touch PCs unless I can afford to hire a full time employ who's a professional PC expert to help me with it at all times, to build it and maintain it and do all the installations and be in 24/7 readiness for problems and emergencies. So Macs are cheaper for me."


----------



## TedEH

Metropolis said:


> He has some computer problems which are inevitable when


Computer problems are inevitable when you refuse to admit you don't have a clue what you're doing.

Yup, my vote's in the "this post is gold" camp.


----------



## Metropolis

TedEH said:


> Computer problems are inevitable when you refuse to admit you don't have a clue what you're doing.
> 
> Yup, my vote's in the "this post is gold" camp.



So what he should do, other than freezing or bouncing the tracks, or have them mixed in separate projects? Jari doesn't want to do that, because it's so tedious. We already suggested him computer specs which blow out his Mac Pro, so he can have those 300+ tracks running in real time 

Not believing his struggles and making up alternative "facts" about his skills is just a same old song.


----------



## TedEH

Metropolis said:


> So what he should do


What he should do is admit that he needs some assistance, and get some assistance.


----------



## TedEH

Metropolis said:


> Not believing his struggles and making up alternative "facts" about his skills is just a same old song.


Excuses and not delivering much is, likewise, the same old song. 

He's already said the worst possible thing he could have said:


Metropolis said:


> A new Wintersun album might come sooner or later or it might not ever come!


----------



## TedEH

It's not so much that I don't believe he's struggling. I absolutely believe he's struggling. This _supports_ my view that he's in over his head and should ask for help.

Edit instead of yet another post:
Also, wow, even just this thread has been going for 6 years.


----------



## Metropolis

TedEH said:


> Excuses and not delivering much is, likewise, the same old song.
> 
> He's already said the worst possible thing he could have said:



Yes of course, I agree it's too. Probably just joking if it will never come, might just as well quit the whole band. Who knows what level of struggling it really is, but more powerful system would be only solution if he wants to run those tracks. If he wants to stay in Apple realm cost is just ridiculous. I wouldn't put that money on a computer even from a crowdfunding money of hundreds of thousands.


----------



## TedEH

Metropolis said:


> Probably just joking if it will never come


----------



## Dayn

If he can't get Time II the way he wants it, well, whatever. Time I is still one of my favourite records, and you can't miss what you don't have. I'd rather nothing instead of a hyped-up half-assed squib of an album.

But I want to see the other projects. I enjoyed The Forest Seasons immensely, so it'd be nice to see these other projects actually come to fruition...


----------



## Boris_VTR

Metropolis said:


> So what he should do, other than freezing or bouncing the tracks, or have them mixed in separate projects? Jari doesn't want to do that, because it's so tedious. We already suggested him computer specs which blow out his Mac Pro, so he can have those 300+ tracks running in real time
> 
> Not believing his struggles and making up alternative "facts" about his skills is just a same old song.


16 core mac pro should handle way way more. Cheapest thing for him would be to check his project by some professional engineers for logic pro/pro tools/whatever software he's using. He could very well be doing some basic mistake that is overloading the system.


----------



## JoeTech

I sincerely wonder what event(s) in life made Jari want to grift this bad. Everyone goes through hardships...relationships, family and friends passing, financial problems, mental and physical problems..did one or more of these impact his mindset or was he just born to grift?


----------



## GunpointMetal

Metropolis said:


> So what he should do,


He should stop pretending he knows what he's doing


Metropolis said:


> other than freezing or bouncing the tracks, or have them mixed in separate projects? Jari doesn't want to do that, because it's so tedious.


 Because that's what a real, professional engineer would do in that situation


Metropolis said:


> We already suggested him computer specs which blow out his Mac Pro, so he can have those 300+ tracks running in real time


 You should suggest him a producer with just a little bit of arrangement knowledge to point out that having 26 tracks of the same note is basically pointless and he's wasting a lot of time creating more excuses for being unproductive



Metropolis said:


> Not believing his struggles and making up alternative "facts" about his skills is just a same old song.


 His only struggle is getting out of his own way.


----------



## mehegama

Boris_VTR said:


> 16 core mac pro should handle way way more. Cheapest thing for him would be to check his project by some professional engineers for logic pro/pro tools/whatever software he's using. He could very well be doing some basic mistake that is overloading the system.


Exactly, he can ask a pro and pay him like 100 euros for an hour to have look.
One of the 2 is happening here:
1. He did something and overloaded the project
2. He has 5000 tracks per song (like in sons of winter and stars) where he plays the same melody/harmony or slight variation of it, with 3000 different samples, thinking that it makes the song epic, while not realizing at the same time that the frequency spectrum can fit only so much and the vast majority of these tracks will not even be heard. On the contrary it will add a buzz and artifacts.


----------



## GunpointMetal

mehegama said:


> 2. He has 5000 tracks per song (like in sons of winter and stars) where he plays the same melody/harmony or slight variation of it, with 3000 different samples, thinking that it makes the song epic, while not realizing at the same time that the frequency spectrum can fit only so much and the vast majority of these tracks will not even be heard. On the contrary it will add a buzz and artifacts.


 I'd guess if he's having that many issues this is probably what's happening. Or he's loading a new VSTi every time he wants to add a new melody so he has like 150 violin tracks when he could probably use 2-3. But most likely, he's just stuffing shit into the arrangement to give the appearance of being busy.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Boris_VTR said:


> 16 core mac pro should handle way way more. Cheapest thing for him would be to check his project by some professional engineers for logic pro/pro tools/whatever software he's using. He could very well be doing some basic mistake that is overloading the system.


 No shit, those computers get used for full-on movie scores where they're playing back massive HD video files while recording and playing back audio.


----------



## ArtDecade

Stop supporting this dope. And let's be honest, his band was never that good.


----------



## Metropolis

The alternative "facts", skill bashing and suspecting mental health continued, not surprised. 
_
"Apparently few LOUD people want me to work on an album X and they are very ANGRY that I'm not doing what they want. I have ZERO interest in working on album X.
Currently I have 100% interest working on album Y and that's what I'm doing.
That's how making music works. It is a personal thing, what you want to do and what you find inspiring. No one can tell you what to do. (Well they can, but it's a waste of their life).
Have a great weekend and take a deep breath of fresh forest air! Cheers!"_

Four hours back from his artist page._..

_


----------



## GunpointMetal

I mean, if you take his toes out of your mouth long enough to look around...


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I wish someone loved me as much as some love Jari/Wintersun


----------



## gnoll

If you mix a lot of colors you end up with some sorta ugly dark brown mess, and you can't see the individual colors you used, however pretty they were. Additional elements can be great and enriching but at a certain point it's too much and takes away from the end result.

It does sound like he could benefit greatly from some studio time with a good producer that could help him with arranging and mixing, plus he would have an actual deadline to work with, so maybe something could get finished.

Not expecting to hear a lot more good music from this band, but that's okay.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

mehegama said:


> has anyone seen the latest update??? comedy gold



Link?


----------



## mehegama

Ataraxia2320 said:


> Link?


A guy in the previous page has copied it from their fb page


----------



## Ataraxia2320

mehegama said:


> A guy in the previous page has copied it from their fb page



Just seen that and the FB post now. 

Jari says that the new mac pro and cubase 10.5 opens at 90% CPU with just the tracks no plugs. 

He also claims that none of his tracks are VST instruments and are just audio. 

I'm gonna call absolute horseshit on that one. Dude's straight up grifting.


----------



## Metropolis

Ataraxia2320 said:


> Just seen that and the FB post now.
> 
> Jari says that the new mac pro and cubase 10.5 opens at 90% CPU with just the tracks no plugs.
> 
> He also claims that none of his tracks are VST instruments and are just audio.
> 
> I'm gonna call absolute horseshit on that one. Dude's straight up grifting.



That's what you get buying overpriced Mac. You would get a powerful PC with AMD Ryzen Threadripper with that money... would probably run those projects like a charm.


----------



## Boris_VTR

Metropolis said:


> That's what you get buying overpriced Mac. You would get a powerful PC with AMD Ryzen Threadripper with that money... would probably run those projects like a charm.


No and no.


----------



## InHiding

He seems like a fairly typical Finnish nerdy engineer type. Saw a few during my studies. I’m not talking about sound engineers.


----------



## TedEH

Looking like a nerd and being enthusiastic does not make one an engineer.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

Metropolis said:


> That's what you get buying overpriced Mac. You would get a powerful PC with AMD Ryzen Threadripper with that money... would probably run those projects like a charm.



The point is that he would need to have several projects open, each with thousands of audio tracks to hit 90% of his cpu but his ram would bottleneck first.

It's not a Mac or PC issue, it's a "Jari is full of shit" issue.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Metropolis said:


> That's what you get buying overpriced Mac. You would get a powerful PC with AMD Ryzen Threadripper with that money... would probably run those projects like a charm.



Nah. The whole thing just screams of arrogance and ego: "I am such a creative mastermind that 16 cores can't handle what my amazing brain is trying to achieve"

First of all, it sounds like bullshit. If he's talking about audio files with no plugins, why would it be using 90% CPU?

Secondly, that type of problem wouldn't be solved by more powerful hardware. Even if you get a 2-4x performance boost, a project at 25% CPU utilisation is still going to stutter and be unusable on playback. And you know he's just going to jam it up by adding 100 more tracks anyway.

Thirdly, if the technology in 2020 is limiting your work, it's your fault. He must be doing something wrong in project management. Those same Mac Pros are churning out Hollywood movies and projects way more complicated than a melodic metal band. If this is truly a problem, he would benefit from a few days of having an expert go over his setup.


----------



## Leviathus

Flappydoodle said:


> And you know he's just going to jam it up by adding 100 more tracks anyway.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Leviathus said:


>



Best analogy is like when someone goes from earning 30K to 70K to 100K to 120K and they are *still* always broke and struggling. If your fundamental principles are wrong, no amount of money will be enough. Shit, Elton John and Michael Jackson ran out of money, rofl


----------



## Metropolis

Flappydoodle said:


> Nah. The whole thing just screams of arrogance and ego: "I am such a creative mastermind that 16 cores can't handle what my amazing brain is trying to achieve"
> 
> First of all, it sounds like bullshit. If he's talking about audio files with no plugins, why would it be using 90% CPU?
> 
> Secondly, that type of problem wouldn't be solved by more powerful hardware. Even if you get a 2-4x performance boost, a project at 25% CPU utilisation is still going to stutter and be unusable on playback. And you know he's just going to jam it up by adding 100 more tracks anyway.
> 
> Thirdly, if the technology in 2020 is limiting your work, it's your fault. He must be doing something wrong in project management. Those same Mac Pros are churning out Hollywood movies and projects way more complicated than a melodic metal band. If this is truly a problem, he would benefit from a few days of having an expert go over his setup.



Depends how it's optimized between applications and how they work in regard what you're doing. It can still get heavy with Cubase... that could be an issue.

Or are you all behind his seat looking at what he's doing?


----------



## TedEH

Metropolis said:


> Depends how it's optimized


As someone who writes software for a living, I can tell you that "optimization" is the word people use when they don't understand what their computer is doing and why it's not doing what they want or expect.

But again - someone who knows what they are doing, _would optimize their workflow_ to prevent the computer itself being the bottleneck. This is basically how any work anywhere gets done. Computers have limitations, we all know that. Every tool has limits. But we haven't put all media production on hold until computers become infinitely capable. We work within and/or around those limits.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Metropolis said:


> Or are you all behind his seat looking at what he's doing?


That's the whole point, lol. He keeps saying stuff that either proves he's lying or he has zero clue about what he's doing.


----------



## Metropolis

TedEH said:


> As someone who writes software for a living, I can tell you that "optimization" is the word people use when they don't understand what their computer is doing and why it's not doing what they want or expect.
> 
> But again - someone who knows what they are doing, _would optimize their workflow_ to prevent the computer itself being the bottleneck. This is basically how any work anywhere gets done. Computers have limitations, we all know that. Every tool has limits. But we haven't put all media production on hold until computers become infinitely capable. We work within and/or around those limits.



For example in video editing/rendering you can have certain functions and workarounds for reducing cpu/gpu load, especially with Macs and it works well with their own applications. Something like Cubase would be different. Jari has 64GB of ram which is plenty for average user, but I don't know if it's for him.


----------



## Flappydoodle

TedEH said:


> As someone who writes software for a living, I can tell you that "optimization" is the word people use when they don't understand what their computer is doing and why it's not doing what they want or expect.
> 
> But again - someone who knows what they are doing, _would optimize their workflow_ to prevent the computer itself being the bottleneck. This is basically how any work anywhere gets done. Computers have limitations, we all know that. Every tool has limits. But we haven't put all media production on hold until computers become infinitely capable. We work within and/or around those limits.



Yes, this is exactly my point. If you can't load X number of tracks at once, then don't do that.


----------



## GunpointMetal

This website need a "haha" react like FB just for this thread. 
64GB of RAM is plenty for a PRO user in 99.9% of all audio-only situations. It should be enough in most heavy synth instrument situations. If he's blowing out his computer doing audio-only stuff, he's doing it wrong, or his hardware is actually broken, or he's just saying stuff so people quit asking when he's gonna actually show them something.


----------



## j3ps3

Metropolis said:


> Or are you all behind his seat looking at what he's doing?



Are you?

Every time somebody explains to you in a great detail (to my understanding some of these people here are professionals?) why it doesn't go the way Jari tells you, and you run out of valid arguments, you just idle for two pages and then start with your bs all over again.


----------



## Winspear

Yeah it can get heavy but it's doable and has been for a long time if you do it smart. Even if you consider running everything live a necessity which I understand and also do , there's ways to do it well and the bad ways will literally require more than 10x as much power. There's no way his needs are any more than Hollywood composers have been doing for the last however long. If new hardware is absolutely necessary it can easily be done for 2k. RAM is not nearly as necessary for heavy sample work nowadays either with SDDs now being affordable - but if you have 64GB you shouldn't be having trouble anyway unless your patch organisation isn't smart.
Hell I've had a capable setup myself for over a decade and have nothing to show for it either - the problem is me not the machine


----------



## TedEH

Metropolis said:


> Jari has 64GB of ram which is plenty for average user, but I don't know if it's for him.


It's more than enough. He doesn't need 64gb. I've seen all of _one_ situation in my life where 64 could barely cut it - and it was a very extreme case (had to do with big budget media creation). Memory is NOT the bottleneck here. Work ethic and ego are the bottleneck here.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

GunpointMetal said:


> or he's just saying stuff so people quit asking when he's gonna actually show them something.



This is the correct answer.

I just did a test on my old XPS 9550 laptop from 2016 (16bgb ram, i7 skylake) and I had more than 200 tracks of audio of various sample rates playing back without any stutters in my DAW (Reaper, sold Cubase so I cant test that).

Performance meter showing 813mb of ram use by the project. CPU was hovering between 3%-6% load.

This was on asio4all with a low buffer size.

If a new 16 core mac pro were to go at 90% load I'd imagine there would need to be literally thousands (or tens of thousands) of tracks per project and several projects open simultaneously.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Ataraxia2320 said:


> This is the correct answer.
> 
> I just did a test on my old XPS 9550 laptop from 2016 (16bgb ram, i7 skylake) and I had more than 200 tracks of audio of various sample rates playing back without any stutters in my DAW (Reaper, sold Cubase so I cant test that).
> 
> Performance meter showing 813mb of ram use by the project. CPU was hovering between 3%-6% load.
> 
> This was on asio4all with a low buffer size.
> 
> If a new 16 core mac pro were to go at 90% load I'd imagine there would need to be literally thousands of tracks per project and several projects open simultaneously.


It's probably the 86 open Pornhub tabs in Chrome running in the background, lol.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

GunpointMetal said:


> It's probably the 86 open Pornhub tabs in Chrome running in the background, lol.



I should mention during the test I was also running a second display via hdmi with 8 chrome tabs open. And I was doing it on battery, not plugged in lol.


----------



## nickgray

GunpointMetal said:


> It's probably the 86 open Pornhub tabs in Chrome running in the background, lol.



So that's why the next album is taking so long...


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Gives a whole new meaning to the term "blast beat".


----------



## p0ke

Ataraxia2320 said:


> This is the correct answer.
> 
> I just did a test on my old XPS 9550 laptop from 2016 (16bgb ram, i7 skylake) and I had more than 200 tracks of audio of various sample rates playing back without any stutters in my DAW (Reaper, sold Cubase so I cant test that).
> 
> Performance meter showing 813mb of ram use by the project. CPU was hovering between 3%-6% load.
> 
> This was on asio4all with a low buffer size.
> 
> If a new 16 core mac pro were to go at 90% load I'd imagine there would need to be literally thousands (or tens of thousands) of tracks per project and several projects open simultaneously.



The difference is most likely that Jari's running everything as midi into VST synths, so if he's running 200 instances of some heavy plugins you can imagine his CPU peaking. But that's a user error anyway, all he'd need to do would be to bounce all the midi stuff into audio and the project would run just fine...


----------



## Merrekof

p0ke said:


> most likely that Jari's running everything as midi into VST synths


Only audio files, appareantly.


----------



## p0ke

Merrekof said:


> Only audio files, appareantly.



Well, in that case something must be severely wrong with his setup...


----------



## SamSam

p0ke said:


> Well, in that case something must be severely wrong with his setup...



...or severely wrong with him


----------



## MaxOfMetal

p0ke said:


> Well, in that case something must be severely wrong with his setup...



PEBCAK


----------



## coreysMonster

Merrekof said:


> Only audio files, appareantly.


WTF LOL
I thought he was running like 300 instances of instrument plugins at the same time, wtf is he doing that his MAC PRO is struggling with audio files?!


----------



## Ataraxia2320

p0ke said:


> The difference is most likely that Jari's running everything as midi into VST synths, so if he's running 200 instances of some heavy plugins you can imagine his CPU peaking. But that's a user error anyway, all he'd need to do would be to bounce all the midi stuff into audio and the project would run just fine...



Nope, he claims that it's just audio, no vst plugins, no VSTI instruments. Dude's just a grifter.


----------



## Winspear

Christ - that's exponentially more hilarious


----------



## Nicki

To be fair, Cubase 10.5 is known to run like dogshit whether you run Windows or Mac. Cubase 10 in general was just a pretty weird release for anyone running Windows 10 or anything higher than OSX 10.14 (Mojave). It has known compatibility issues with Windows 10 and Mac users who upgraded to Catalina in 2019 started running into problems too. Not everyone ran into problems. I was running Artist 10 just fine when Windows 10 came out. The users who experienced issues were a small percentage, but Steinberg did acknowledge the compatibility issues... They just never bothered to fix them.


----------



## Metropolis

Nicki said:


> To be fair, Cubase 10.5 is known to run like dogshit whether you run Windows or Mac. Cubase 10 in general was just a pretty weird release for anyone running Windows 10 or anything higher than OSX 10.14 (Mojave). It has known compatibility issues with Windows 10 and Mac users who upgraded to Catalina in 2019 started running into problems too. Not everyone ran into problems. I was running Artist 10 just fine when Windows 10 came out. The users who experienced issues were a small percentage, but Steinberg did acknowledge the compatibility issues... They just never bothered to fix them.



Seems Steinberg did some sort of fixing update in the end of last year, but still people keep having issues with performance. And Steinberg's support siten can't really suggest anything than usual optimization settings for audio production.



j3ps3 said:


> Are you?
> 
> Every time somebody explains to you in a great detail (to my understanding some of these people here are professionals?) why it doesn't go the way Jari tells you, and you run out of valid arguments, you just idle for two pages and then start with your bs all over again.



It's not a Jari issue, it's a software issue. Being a professional isn't an argument either, because you really don't know what is going on. I haven't seen great detail about it here.


----------



## p0ke

Metropolis said:


> It's not a Jari issue, it's a software issue.



Well, you know... to be fair, there's one or two other DAW's he could use instead if Cubase is actually the problem. Learning to use a different DAW isn't that much of a deal and totally worth a bit of a learning curve if it actually solves the problem. But I guess Jari would need a computer support person for that as well?

Not that I'd care, I'm just eating popcorn and enjoying the show here  And if/when they release new music, I'll probably like it and buy it regardless of Jari's excuses.


----------



## Metropolis

p0ke said:


> Well, you know... to be fair, there's one or two other DAW's he could use instead if Cubase is actually the problem. Learning to use a different DAW isn't that much of a deal and totally worth a bit of a learning curve if it actually solves the problem. But I guess Jari would need a computer support person for that as well?
> 
> Not that I'd care, I'm just eating popcorn and enjoying the show here  And if/when they release new music, I'll probably like it and buy it regardless of Jari's excuses.



Logic Pro X shouldn't have those issues...


----------



## TedEH

Metropolis said:


> it's a software issue


I thought this was a hardware issue? I think it's mostly an "anything but Jari" issue. Regardless of what the core of the issue is, there's a common denominator here.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Metropolis said:


> It's not a Jari issue, it's a software issue. Being a professional isn't an argument either, because you really don't know what is going on. I haven't seen great detail about it here.


So continually banging his head against a wall when there's a problem isn't an issue? lol, this is just nonsense.

"Oh no, my software is working correctly!!"

So then you use different software. 

"No"



TedEH said:


> I think it's mostly an "anything but Jari" issue. Regardless of what the core of the issue is, there's a common denominator here.


----------



## Nicki

p0ke said:


> Well, you know... to be fair, there's one or two other DAW's he could use instead if Cubase is actually the problem. Learning to use a different DAW isn't that much of a deal and totally worth a bit of a learning curve if it actually solves the problem. But I guess Jari would need a computer support person for that as well?
> 
> Not that I'd care, I'm just eating popcorn and enjoying the show here  And if/when they release new music, I'll probably like it and buy it regardless of Jari's excuses.


If the DAW is a problem (which I could believe is potentially an issue), you're right, he could switch. Studio One is basically Cubase, only a heck of a lot better and a heck of a lot smoother. It has just about all the same keyboard shortcuts as Cubase, it was built by the original Cubase team and as a result, feels a lot like Cubase... Not to mention it's way cheaper and way more intuitive than Cubase.

It's basically just a better Cubase. The switch was not jarring in the slightest for me.


----------



## Metropolis

GunpointMetal said:


> So continually banging his head against a wall when there's a problem isn't an issue? lol, this is just nonsense.
> 
> "Oh no, my software is working correctly!!"
> 
> So then you use different software.
> 
> "No"



So... maybe he will in the future if it's not going to have other fix?


----------



## j3ps3

Metropolis said:


> It's not a Jari issue, it's a software issue. Being a professional isn't an argument either, because you really don't know what is going on. I haven't seen great detail about it here.



Right back at you, what do you know about what's going on? On your own terms you don't have an argument over this matter anymore.

Edit: How come it's not an Jari issue? He seems to be pretty much the only person on the face of the earth to have problems like these on this scale. And how come it's not an argument? They clearly know their way around those things way better than Jari, but somehow Jari is still untouchable master of his craft and because of that it's an invalid argument? Get real, dude.

And yeah, you're somewhat right, as my criticism on that was pointed more towards you than Jari. Again, what do you know more about this than the others here? What's making you more right on the subject than anybody else? You use that "you don't know that" as an argument, but what do you know any better? What makes your argument more valid than anybody else's? Stop using arguments that can be bounced right back at you. Also, you seem to cherry pick what question you answer. Somehow you always seem to disregard points that you can't answer to your own (or Jari's) benefit.


----------



## p0ke

Also, IMO the only reason to insist on using a Mac is to use Logic -> for all other DAW's you might as well build a more powerful PC for half the price (and keep updating it as you go, as opposed to having to buy a whole new Mac every once in a while).



Nicki said:


> If the DAW is a problem (which I could believe is potentially an issue), you're right, he could switch. Studio One is basically Cubase, only a heck of a lot better and a heck of a lot smoother. It has just about all the same keyboard shortcuts as Cubase, it was built by the original Cubase team and as a result, feels a lot like Cubase... Not to mention it's way cheaper and way more intuitive than Cubase.
> 
> It's basically just a better Cubase. The switch was not jarring in the slightest for me.



Yep! I've been using all kinds of DAW's (whatever I've gotten for free along with devices, cracked versions back in the day, now I'm just using Cakewalk by Bandlab which is free...) throughout the years and can't say I've had any issues with using any of them. I've used Cubase, Sonar, Studio One, Logic Pro, Reaper ... not much of a learning curve between any of them IMO.
Sure, some routing and other features work a bit differently and take a bit of getting used to, but essentially you do the same things in all of them anyway. Also, not much of a difference between Mac and Windows versions TBH.


----------



## nickgray

p0ke said:


> for half the price



Crowdfunding money goes a long way, apparently. In all honesty, that's by far the most hilarious bit - you'd think he'd be making interstellar spaceships in his studio or something by this point.


----------



## Metropolis

j3ps3 said:


> Right back at you, what do you know about what's going on? On your own terms you don't have an argument over this matter anymore.
> 
> Edit: How come it's not an Jari issue? He seems to be pretty much the only person on the face of the earth to have problems like these on this scale. And how come it's not an argument? They clearly know their way around those things way better than Jari, but somehow Jari is still untouchable master of his craft and because of that it's an invalid argument? Get real, dude.
> 
> And yeah, you're somewhat right, as my criticism on that was pointed more towards you than Jari. Again, what do you know more about this than the others here? What's making you more right on the subject than anybody else? You use that "you don't know that" as an argument, but what do you know any better? What makes your argument more valid than anybody else's? Stop using arguments that can be bounced right back at you. Also, you seem to cherry pick what question you answer. Somehow you always seem to disregard points that you can't answer to your own (or Jari's) benefit.



Of course he isn't the only one, and what are the actual problems, no one knows exactly. These are just assumptions. If it's about software compatibility, then it may be easier to tackle.

"You don't know that" is just a general figure of speech for this as a subject and a specific situation.


----------



## j3ps3

Metropolis said:


> Of course he isn't the only one, and what are the actual problems, no one knows exactly. These are just assumptions. If it's about software compatibility, then it may be easier to tackle.
> 
> "You don't know that" is just a general figure of speech for this as a subject and a specific situation.



Please, name somebody else on his level who has these kinds of problems and has made years of excuses on why stuff isn't happening as he has promised.
The excuses Jari gives over this are absolutely laughable. Everyone in this planet is busy with stuff. This is he's profession and he obviously can't handle it. In a normal work environment that'd get you fired or bankrupt eventually

And that lack of CPU power? Absolutely bs - there's no question about it. He's like a little kid who's trying to explain things to his best and acts like he knows about this stuff so much that he can bullshit he's way out of it, yet everybody and their mother can see that he's full of shit as recording at home has come pretty much available to everybody nowadays. That "CPU lacks power  can't do anything" doesn't really fly. That is 110% an user error, so yeah. Jari is the issue here.

And how do I know this? Well I read the text Jari wrote.


----------



## Metropolis

j3ps3 said:


> Please, name somebody else on his level who has these kinds of problems and has made years of excuses on why stuff isn't happening as he has promised.
> The excuses Jari gives over this are absolutely laughable. Everyone in this planet is busy with stuff. This is he's profession and he obviously can't handle it. In a normal work environment that'd get you fired or bankrupt eventually
> 
> And that lack of CPU power? Absolutely bs - there's no question about it. He's like a little kid who's trying to explain things to his best and acts like he knows about this stuff so much that he can bullshit he's way out of it, yet everybody and their mother can see that he's full of shit as recording at home has come pretty much available to everybody nowadays. That "CPU lacks power  can't do anything" doesn't really fly. That is 110% an user error, so yeah. Jari is the issue here.
> 
> And how do I know this? Well I read the text Jari wrote.



Promises are invaluable because things tend to change. Someone out there is having similar problems, but they render tracks into different projects to prevent this happening. Jari doesn't want to do that. It doesn't matter what everyone else does.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Metropolis said:


> Promises are invaluable because things tend to change. Someone out there is having similar problems, but they render tracks into different projects to prevent this happening. Jari doesn't want to SOLVE HIS PROBLEM BECAUSE THEN HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY EXCUSES. It doesn't matter what everyone else does.


FIFY


----------



## Metropolis

GunpointMetal said:


> FIFY



Why he would want to make things difficult on purpose, I don't get it. What if I just take this as slandering.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Metropolis said:


> Why he would want to make things difficult on purpose, I don't get it. What if I just take this as slandering.


I don't know, what if you do? You could always just stop replying in this thread as though you have any more clue as to what you're talking about as anyone else if its really bothering you.
I don't know if you've ever worked with people who like to talk big game with nothing to back it up, but all of this is exactly how they handle things. If you create a universe of excuses you can never be responsible for anything that happens or doesn't happen. In this case he has the "sensitive artist" card as to why he can't solve the problems he's having. 
"Well, I see that other people have found a way to continue working around similar issues, but if I can't do things exactly in my way, then I can't work."
That's the type of shit that gets people fired from real jobs.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

Metropolis said:


> It's not a Jari issue, it's a software issue.



No, it's a Jari issue. There are literally tens of thousands of other audio engineers out there using Cubase 10 with hundreds of tracks going. And they aren't running hardware half as powerful as the new mac pros. 

If you really believe it's a software issue I have a bridge to sell you.


----------



## ArtDecade

Metropolis said:


> What if I just take this as slandering.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

This is Cubase 10 on a 16 core mac pro. The same hardware and software Jari uses. 

See how this dude can open 850 tracks with Absynth virtual instruments on every single one of them in real time with no hiccups?

Jari claiming that audio only is too much for his CPU is absolute horseshit. It's not my opinion, if Jari is not lying it's a straight up fact.


----------



## Metropolis

Ataraxia2320 said:


> This is Cubase 10 on a 16 core mac pro. The same hardware and software Jari uses.
> 
> See how this dude can open 850 tracks with Absynth virtual instruments on every single one of them in real time with no hiccups?
> 
> Jari claiming that audio only is too much for his CPU is absolute horseshit. It's not my opinion, if Jari is not lying it's a straight up fact.




I already wrote that he would change to something else than Cubase because it has serious issues with latest version of macOS.


----------



## TedEH

Legitimate question: Why are you so invested in defending Jari?

I just keep coming back because I find the fact that we're 45 pages into this kinda fascinating, and apparently I just like arguing. But I don't get what you get out of it.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

Metropolis said:


> I already wrote that he would change to something else than Cubase because it has serious issues with latest version of macOS.



It's not so serious that you cant run audio tracks with no VST's or VST instruments.

You're delusional if you think this is the case.

Edit - Just been on youtube and there are videos of people with high track counts with multiple VST's and VST instruments on a hackintosh with the latest version of macos and cubase. All without stutter.

If they have stability on a hackintosh then Jari has no excuse.


----------



## Metropolis

Ataraxia2320 said:


> It's not so serious that you cant run audio tracks with no VST's or VST instruments.
> 
> You're delusional if you think this is the case.
> 
> Edit - Just been on youtube and there are videos of people with high track counts with multiple VST's and VST instruments on a hackintosh with the latest version of macos and cubase. All without stutter.
> 
> If they have stability on a hackintosh then Jari has no excuse.



You aren't still behind his seat, do you? No one knows what he's exactly doing to cause such problems.



TedEH said:


> Legitimate question: Why are you so invested in defending Jari?
> 
> I just keep coming back because I find the fact that we're 45 pages into this kinda fascinating, and apparently I just like arguing. But I don't get what you get out of it.



Why are some people so invested into an idea that he owes new music to them? It seems really weird because we are talking about music anyway, and making entertainment or art isn't that predictable as a whole.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

Metropolis said:


> You aren't still behind his seat, do you? No one knows what he's exactly doing to cause such problems.



I dont need to be behind his shoulder to look in on his session.

He claims that audio files only are too much for his 16 core mac pro.

This is not possible.

You are trying to insinuate that this is a Cubase/mac catalina 10.4 fault.

I'm just saying the probability of this is pretty much zero considering that people who are running hackintoshes with 300 plus vst instrument tracks on youtube wit zero hiccups.

If a hackintosh can do it, then a mac pro 16 core should do it without breaking a sweat.



Metropolis said:


> Why are some people so invested into an idea that he owes new music to them? It seems really weird because we are talking about music anyway, and making entertainment or art isn't that predictable as a whole.



Cant speak for anyone else in this thread, but I couldnt care about a Wintersun album. The band is not my cup of tea.

I'm more interested in the story of Jari the grifter, and his personality as a whole. Not to mention how fandom can blind people and cause them to do extreme mental gymnastics to protect their heros.


----------



## TedEH

Metropolis said:


> Why are some people so invested into an idea that he owes new music to them?


You didn't answer my question. I'm still legitimately curious why you're so invested.

But sure - I'll reiterate why there's so much opposition (discounting any "we just like to argue" element), cause I think lots of reasons have been given.
In no particular order:
- Jari is setting a precedent that being an artist means you don't have to do any actual work, and people will back you anyway
- There's a perpetuation of the idea that you should just be able to "follow your dreams" regardless of skill level, viability of that profession, effort, etc
- Jari's ego is a bit embarrassing to the community he belong to (which includes us)
- Some people have given money to Jari and don't feel like they got out of it what they should have
- Other fans are disappointed that it's taking so long for promised material to come out _because they are still fans and still want to hear the music_
- Easily refutable misinformation is being spread on the basis of defending one vaguely-famous person's ego
- It's an interesting conversation, like the last guy said.

I can think of more ways to phrase this, but I think my point is made.


----------



## j3ps3

Metropolis said:


> Promises are invaluable because things tend to change. Someone out there is having similar problems, but they render tracks into different projects to prevent this happening.



Then why are you defending Jari's actions? It's obvious he doesn't know what his doing.

Of effing course it matters what every one else does. That's exactly what's the benchmark. Multiple producers/artists/demo musicians have proved that by doing something far more epic than Jari has ever even imagined.

I'll get back to my point a few pages later. How did Tuomas Holopainen achieve all he's done if "one can't do epic music with the computers we have today"?

And if you're gonna say that Wintersun is more epic than Nightwish just delete your profile. I don't like either of the bands, but c'mon. All of the excuses you're giving are equally as bad as the excuses Jari has given the fans of the band for +10 years.

I'm gonna do this in its own paragraph as I'd like to have an answer to this one, but what exactly has Jari done, compared to any other composer/artist/whatever, that is so spectacular that all his excuses over this are valid? Fact is, his music isn't that special. General melodic death metal from Finland. He doesn't need NASA computers to achieve that. Period.


----------



## Metropolis

j3ps3 said:


> Then why are you defending Jari's actions? It's obvious he doesn't know what his doing.
> 
> Of effing course it matters what every one else does. That's exactly what's the benchmark. Multiple producers/artists/demo musicians have proved that by doing something far more epic than Jari has ever even imagined.
> 
> I'll get back to my point a few pages later. How did Tuomas Holopainen achieve all he's done if "one can't do epic music with the computers we have today"?
> 
> And if you're gonna say that Wintersun is more epic than Nightwish just delete your profile. I don't like either of the bands, but c'mon. All of the excuses you're giving are equally as bad as the excuses Jari has given the fans of the band for +10 years.
> 
> I'm gonna do this in its own paragraph as I'd like to have an answer to this one, but what exactly has Jari done, compared to any other composer/artist/whatever, that is so spectacular that all his excuses over this are valid? Fact is, his music isn't that special. General melodic death metal from Finland. He doesn't need NASA computers to achieve that. Period.



It doesn't matter what other bands do and music isn't a competition. Nightwish's genre alone is quite different which makes it really hard to compare them with each other. Tuomas had massive budgets, around half a million euros per album. As an end product he doesn't have to rely on computers that much, and style is also different.

Who are these infamous demo artists who top Jari's work in sheer quality of the music? In a similar frame of genre of course.

Jari being one of the pioneers of this modern folk epic melodeath stylel, that's another underestimation. Music again is a personal thing.

For me stuff like Wintersun, Turisas, Equilibrium, Ensiferum, Moonsorrow and so on are far more epic than Nightwish.

It's weird if you want to have a discussion about a band you don't even like.


----------



## j3ps3

Metropolis said:


> It doesn't matter what other bands do and music isn't a competition. Nightwish's genre alone is quite different which makes it really hard to compare them with each other. Tuomas had massive budgets, around half a million euros per album. As an end product he doesn't have to rely on computers that much, and style is also different.



Once the band is a business, this is the lamest excuse one could have. Of course it matters what you do. Why wouldn't it? Jari feels like a dude who just can't back up what he claims he's doing. I'm the same. I'm not a composer. I'd love the idea of being one, but the fact is, I'm not. And I'm not gonna claim anything else. Jari has claimed exactly that same stuff of being a superior composer and artist for +10 years now. Nightwish isn't the point on this - they did the same thing Jari has been giving excuses for +10 years over +20 years ago. They didn't start with massive budgets. They did what they did and grew. To me, it seems like Jari's looking to achieve that same level with not even half the effort. And everyone of you are welcome to say that I'm wrong, but "As an end product he doesn't have to rely on computers that much, and style is also different." is, again, a effing bs excuse. Yeah, maybe he didn't - because it might've been ever more hard to achieve that sound when Nightwish did it.



Metropolis said:


> Who are these infamous demo artists who top Jari's work in sheer quality of the music? In a similar frame of genre of course.



Well, I'm just talking out of my ass now, but I doubt Hans Zimmer has problems like these, even with a CPU with lower level specs. Might be wrong but - just for the sake of your own way of argumenting stuff - prove me wrong.



Metropolis said:


> Jari being one of the pioneers of this modern folk epic melodeath stylel, that's another underestimation. Music again is a personal thing.
> 
> For me stuff like Wintersun, Turisas, Equilibrium, Ensiferum, Moonsorrow and so on are far more epic than Nightwish.
> 
> It's weird if you want to have a discussion about a band you don't even like.



"I'm gonna state something as a fact and then claim it's a personal thing"
Wintersun is a 13 in a dozen melodic death metal band if you happen to live in Finland. If it's so mind blowing good, they would have achieved something waaaaaaaay bigger than what they are now. Wonder why Kai Hahto prefers Nightwish over Wintersun? If Wintersun is such a big phenomenon you claim it to be, he wouldn't need to do that. He would be happy to play with Wintersun and have the paycheck. Yet he skips even the recordings of a full length album. To me - that sounds more like a session musician. Not like somebody who is actually invested in the band and wants to take it forward.

Why wouldn't I want to have a discussion about this? Just because I don't like something doesn't take away the right from me to criticize it. I've given props to artists/bands whose music I don't like, yet I appreciate the way they handle business stuff and work like professionals without any hiccups.


----------



## TedEH

Metropolis said:


> Who are these infamous demo artists who top Jari's work in sheer quality of the music? In a similar frame of genre of course.


Lots of examples of people with less means who produce better and more frequent results have already been provided. Genre is irrelevant to the conversation.
What about Devin Townsend? He has the means, so he's a bad example.
I offered the example of David Maxim Micic a long time ago (maybe years ago now... lol)
Tons of people on this forum produce stuff all the time, while maintaining day jobs, that rival the quality of anything Wintersun has done.
I can think of lots of local bands who do great work in the same circumstances.


----------



## Metropolis

j3ps3 said:


> "I'm gonna state something as a fact and then claim it's a personal thing"
> Wintersun is a 13 in a dozen melodic death metal band if you happen to live in Finland. If it's so mind blowing good, they would have achieved something waaaaaaaay bigger than what they are now. Wonder why Kai Hahto prefers Nightwish over Wintersun? If Wintersun is such a big phenomenon you claim it to be, he wouldn't need to do that. He would be happy to play with Wintersun and have the paycheck. Yet he skips even the recordings of a full length album. To me - that sounds more like a session musician. Not like somebody who is actually invested in the band and wants to take it forward.
> 
> Why wouldn't I want to have a discussion about this? Just because I don't like something doesn't take away the right from me to criticize it. I've given props to artists/bands whose music I don't like, yet I appreciate the way they handle business stuff and work like professionals without any hiccups.



There are lots of those especially in nordic countries but Wintersun is one of the best in their style of melodeath. Why Hahto prefers other band... because he was asked to play on Endless Forms Most Beatiful and after that he became their actual drummer because of Jukka Nevalainen couldn't beat his health problems. He is kind of a hired gun in every band, and their schedules didn't meet when The Forest Seasons was under construction, Nightwish was on tour. In my opinion Jari should just end it with Kai, and choose either Rolf Pilve or Heikki Saari as a full member because both are amazing drummers.

Sometimes I just can't take all the arguments seriously because they don't have enough thought behind them because of that. Bluntly they're just outsider's worthless opinions. Again Wintersun has done this side differently and they've not been actively touring band like others who do an album every 2-3 years because their label says so. It's just not possible, but it can be in the future if they get things going.



TedEH said:


> Lots of examples of people with less means who produce better and more frequent results have already been provided. Genre is irrelevant to the conversation.
> What about Devin Townsend? He has the means, so he's a bad example.
> I offered the example of David Maxim Micic a long time ago (maybe years ago now... lol)
> Tons of people on this forum produce stuff all the time, while maintaining day jobs, that rival the quality of anything Wintersun has done.
> I can think of lots of local bands who do great work in the same circumstances.



I have yet to hear about those amazing demo level melodic death metal bands who are in the same level.

David makes amazing music, like simple and beatiful sounding modern progressive metal.


----------



## TedEH

I don't listen to enough stuff in the same vein as Wintersun to pick a name, but the idea that you need a band that sounds like Wintersun to out-Wintersun Wintersun to justify the behaviour of the band is kinda ridiculous. Genre has nothing to do with this conversation.


----------



## Metropolis

TedEH said:


> I don't listen to enough stuff in the same vein as Wintersun to pick a name, but the idea that you need a band that sounds like Wintersun to out-Wintersun Wintersun to justify the behaviour of the band is kinda ridiculous. Genre has nothing to do with this conversation.



It's very different to make a song with 24 tracks than 240 tracks, so genre and different pieces of said music matters. It wasn't about justifying anything, it was about "epic" metal similar or not too similar but none the less still epic, and it's about genre and making certain things in it. They're all in some label's list, no individual mystic demo producers or forum dudes here.


----------



## TedEH

No, the number of tracks don't matter at all. A metal song doesn't become more difficult to write because "it's epic". How does Dream Theater manage to put out so many complicated and orchestrated songs? How does Devin Townsend do it? Are you going to tell me they never use more than 20-30 tracks?


----------



## Lorcan Ward

IMO Aether Realm are on par with Wintersun. This 20 minute epic would fit right in on Wintersun’s previous two releases. It really peaks in the last 5 mins for anyone that just wants to skip forward.


----------



## nickgray

Metropolis said:


> It's very different to make a song with 24 tracks than 240 tracks



Symphonic metal bands don't deal in complex harmony or counterpoint, I've yet to hear a sympho metal band that takes inspiration from classical music rather than from soundtracks. Point being, 240 tracks is pretty absurd, the amount of tracks that contain the actual musical information is vastly lower than that. Similarly, you can't just infinitely "layer" tracks and expect the material to sound more and more epic, there's a very hard limit on what the harmony will allow you to do, and a hard limit on how busy the frequency spectrum of the song can get.


----------



## j3ps3

Metropolis said:


> Again Wintersun has done this side differently and they've not been actively touring band like others who do an album every 2-3 years because their label says so. It's just not possible, but it can be in the future if they get things going.



Why it's not possible? What's the excuse? Have you heard about Tool?



Metropolis said:


> I have yet to hear about those amazing demo level melodic death metal bands who are in the same level.
> 
> David makes amazing music, like simple and beatiful sounding modern progressive metal.



Before I even try to find anything, please elaborate your definition of music that is as-epic-as-wintersun.


----------



## Metropolis

j3ps3 said:


> Why it's not possible? What's the excuse? If Hans Zimmer can do a dozen (just throwing it out there, not claiming I know an actual amount of records he does over a year, but I know that it's greater than the amount of records Jari puts out) of soundtracks over a year what's the excuse Jari has?
> 
> 
> 
> Before I even try to find anything, please elaborate your definition of music that is as-epic-as-wintersun.



No releases equals no tours, and there is not so big market for epic melodeath anyway. Hanz Zimmer doesn't produce, play or do everything else by himself. He has a big chunk of producers and other musicians who work with him, entirely different business also. Only relative thing is that it's music what he's making.

I don't know, recent years in realm of metal what I have listened. Fleshgod Apocalypse and Septicflesh manage to have orchestrated sound mixed with death metal. Equilibrium is a german epic metal band, their three first albums were amazing. Couple of latest Blind Guardian albums... there is lot of that in the power metal side too. Epica is one of my favorite symphonic metal bands. 

If you start digging you may find lots of other bands which share similar elements in their music, which can be equally "epic" just in a different way.


----------



## TedEH

Metropolis said:


> Hanz Zimmer doesn't produce, play or do everything else by himself. He has a big chunk of producers and other musicians who work with him, entirely different business also.


Notice how much more productive that process is? It's almost like doing everything yourself _is bad for productivity_.

You managed to give a whole bunch of examples of bands that don't have the same problems that Wintersun, but still qualify as "epic" to you. Why don't _they_ take 16 years or whatever it's been to [not] deliver an album?


----------



## TedEH

Man, I went to Wikipedia to try to remember the timeline of all this, and even their wiki page is gold. Lets take a moment to remember that the original guitar, bass, and drum tracking for Time (before it was split into two albums, one of which was still never released) was supposedly done in May of _2006_.

That's 14 years ago for anyone who stopped counting. I'm pretty sure I've played on, or had a hand in the production of, well over a dozen releases in that time, with various bands or on my own - while being employed full time doing something else. None of what I've done is super pro quality, sure, and some of it was pretty bad even, but hey - I'm doing it, at least.

Jari has no excuse.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

TedEH said:


> Man, I went to Wikipedia to try to remember the timeline of all this, and even their wiki page is gold. Lets take a moment to remember that the original guitar, bass, and drum tracking for Time (before it was split into two albums, one of which was still never released) was supposedly done in May of _2006_.
> 
> That's 14 years ago for anyone who stopped counting. I'm pretty sure I've played on, or had a hand in the production of, well over a dozen releases in that time, with various bands or on my own - while being employed full time doing something else. None of what I've done is super pro quality, sure, and some of it was pretty bad even, but hey - I'm doing it, at least.
> 
> Jari has no excuse.



Damn, I havent been in a band since 2011 and I've put out more releases than that in my spare time for kicks.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Maybe if we get Dr. Pepper involved, we might be able to get something released.


----------



## Randy

Jari's greatest crime against humanity is whatever it is that plays in the background of The Forest that Weeps that sounds like phone notifications going off.


----------



## TedEH

Randy said:


> Jari's greatest crime against humanity is whatever it is that plays in the background of The Forest that Weeps that sounds like phone notifications going off.


I can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but every once in a while I could _swear_ I'm hearing random notification sounds and standard PC or mobile bleeps and bloops that accidentally make it into pro recordings. I might be imagining it. But I don't think I am. Maybe it's kind of like those "phantom messages" when you think your phone has vibrated in your pocket but it turns out there's nothing and you probably just have a circulation problem or a twitch or something.


----------



## Science_Penguin

TedEH said:


> Notice how much more productive that process is? It's almost like doing everything yourself _is bad for productivity_



Sad part is, I know of artists who do everything themselves and still don't seem to have these problems...


----------



## Jonathan20022

"I'm a very skilled painter with some great art that a very loyal following truly appreciates and resonates with, and one of my crown pieces is in fact a part of a much bigger painting and project that is yet to arrive! The ambition of the entire painting requires a canvas much larger than my current assets can handle, so I will have to manage for now unless I am able to harbor support from my loyal fans! I have a few requirements to be able to produce the rest of the image you all appreciate and follow me so much for to be addressed.

The overall painting is multiple times larger than my current working situation can even house. I require housing that can handle a canvas 10x the size of the original, and none of the homes/office spaces in my vicinity will cut it so I would prefer to fund and build housing to handle this ambitious project! If you'd like to support me please feel free to show me on my new crowdfunding page to build an environment to foster and handle the project that you all are very much looking forward to!

*some time later...
*
I have been receiving feedback that after some time now, and several years of touring my art around the world that there has not been an update on the ambitious project we worked towards with the crowdfunding project released before. I have run into several issues that make for some difficulty in managing any progress on this long awaited piece, after the construction of my new home and workspace I've encountered issues with my tools. I find that both keeping the entire canvas in the room along with all of my various pigments and brushes is nigh on impossible. It is also regrettable that the palette to house absolutely all colors that are required to work on this painting *at once *simply cannot fit in the same room as my other tools which understandably exacerbates the delays I have encountered.

Fear not! For in the last few years has produced the concept and inspiration for 4 main pieces of work that I plan on releasing in the near future. Yes, one of those pieces is indeed the much awaited project that requires a plethora of preparation and the correct environment to work on. The issues presented before truly hamper my inspiration to work on the ambitious piece, so regrettably even with all of the demand I must remind you all that the pace of an artist is not set by it's audience and this cannot be rushed. So please be patient as I work towards these future pieces, of which are thematically different and a return to form in more ways than one! These new pieces are currently inspiring me quite a bit, so please understand that they will more than likely release before the long awaited and expected piece that was promised with the crowdfunding project. Please understand that I am working at my own pace and at the current position I am in will probably produce more art to be appreciated or it may never actually come to fruition. So please handle your own expectations for my work as we move forward.

I will be updating you all soon on our next crowdfunding project to fund the next part of my artistic development!"

Can you imagine defending and funding delusions of this level? It's so laughably ridiculous that I find it hard to even rationalize his ramblings. Jari can suck my balls, modern computers have made do and produced some of the greatest music of our time and he's hiding behind not having the resources to load all tracks/plugins/samples and play/record them at the same time to bait his fans into buying him another 3 years.

I don't need to render 8k footage in Adobe Premiere natively while editing to make sure I release my project in time for a deadline, you downsample the video and work within your means. In literally any other industry if you leave a client hanging for 3 years you no longer have a client nor any credibility to harness any major support from your disappointed followers.

"But the music is epic!"


----------



## gnoll

nickgray said:


> Symphonic metal bands don't deal in complex harmony or counterpoint, I've yet to hear a sympho metal band that takes inspiration from classical music rather than from soundtracks. Point being, 240 tracks is pretty absurd, the amount of tracks that contain the actual musical information is vastly lower than that. Similarly, you can't just infinitely "layer" tracks and expect the material to sound more and more epic, there's a very hard limit on what the harmony will allow you to do, and a hard limit on how busy the frequency spectrum of the song can get.



This!

Why does he even need so many tracks?

The first album was good because it had good songs with good riffs and melodies.

Time 1 sucked because it had a bunch of crap just layered on top of itself. It doesn't sound epic, it just sounds lame and muddies everything up. If your music doesn't call for an insane amount of tracks, don't use them! A high-end computer can't handle the music? That's a sign the music sucks.

What kinds of chords does he use? 7ths? 9ths? 13ths? Does he use polytonality? What is going on in all these tracks? I would be surprised if it's much more than a bunch of roots and thirds layered endlessly with choirs and what-have-you, and maybe some stupid harp arpeggio that you obviously cannot hear because there's a wall of guitars covering everything. And he thinks the solution is a better computer? Please.

I think he doesn't know what he's doing and could use some help. But he won't have that, because he doesn't care enough about actually being productive. He seems to be happy just doing what he does and never finishing anything, and as long as people support him monetarily, hey, why not? It works, right?


----------



## Dayn

Mud? Number of tracks aside, every time I listen to Time I I'm discovering new things. Muddy is the last word I'd use to describe it.


----------



## gnoll

Dayn said:


> every time I listen to Time I I'm discovering new things.



Hey, that's fair, but it's kind of also my point. Maybe if the arrangement and mix were better it wouldn't take you so long to discover these things.

Every time I listen to it (almost never) I just hear a mess of unnecessary fluff. It's not stuff that adds to the music, it's stuff that's not interesting anyway, that the songs would be better off without. Imo...


----------



## SamSam

As long as people keep providing Jari with an income while he continues to do (or not do) what he is doing nothing will change. He has no real reason to.

On a side note if Jari put as much effort into his music as some people put into defending him we could have had Time III by now!

The rehearsal they post are excellent btw, highly recommended, I regularly watch Sons of Winter and Stars and prefer that version of Time to the album version.


----------



## p0ke

Metropolis said:


> I have yet to hear about those amazing demo level melodic death metal bands who are in the same level.



Not exactly demo-level, but you don't have to look far to find similar stuff -> take Brymir for example. AFAIK they made all their orchestrations themselves, including the vocalist and guitarist singing all the choir parts on the latest album. According to their post, it was 50-100 tracks of the two guys singing, depending on the song and part. And surprise surprise, no computer issues to be heard of.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

^Byrmir are incredible. Like Wintersun and Dimmu Borgir had a baby


----------



## TedEH

Jonathan20022 said:


> In literally any other industry if you leave a client hanging for 3 years you no longer have a client nor any credibility


Not 3 years. _Fourteeen years._


----------



## Metropolis

p0ke said:


> Not exactly demo-level, but you don't have to look far to find similar stuff -> take Brymir for example. AFAIK they made all their orchestrations themselves, including the vocalist and guitarist singing all the choir parts on the latest album. According to their post, it was 50-100 tracks of the two guys singing, depending on the song and part. And surprise surprise, no computer issues to be heard of.



Amazing band, as far as I know their vocalist Viktor is a sound engineer and does all sorts of stuff from tv-shows to metal.



TedEH said:


> Not 3 years. _Fourteeen years._



How's that so. After 2006 they released two albums, and toured every common continent except South-America. They aren't half albums, 40 & 53 minutes are full albums. 3 years without releasing an album is also totally normal. After The Forest Seasons released began their most extensive touring cycle which lasted from spring 2017 to july 2019. It included Europe, New-Zealand & Australia, Japan and North-America. They also played at 70,000 Tons Of Metal 2020. Don't know about clients hanging. I have seen them five times live beginning from 2006.


----------



## TedEH

Metropolis said:


> How's that so.


I've already explained how this is so. The album Time was promised in 2006, and only half of that content ever made it out.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Jonathan20022 said:


> "I'm a very skilled painter with some great art that a very loyal following truly appreciates and resonates with, and one of my crown pieces is in fact a part of a much bigger painting and project that is yet to arrive! The ambition of the entire painting requires a canvas much larger than my current assets can handle, so I will have to manage for now unless I am able to harbor support from my loyal fans! I have a few requirements to be able to produce the rest of the image you all appreciate and follow me so much for to be addressed.
> 
> The overall painting is multiple times larger than my current working situation can even house. I require housing that can handle a canvas 10x the size of the original, and none of the homes/office spaces in my vicinity will cut it so I would prefer to fund and build housing to handle this ambitious project! If you'd like to support me please feel free to show me on my new crowdfunding page to build an environment to foster and handle the project that you all are very much looking forward to!
> 
> *some time later...
> *
> I have been receiving feedback that after some time now, and several years of touring my art around the world that there has not been an update on the ambitious project we worked towards with the crowdfunding project released before. I have run into several issues that make for some difficulty in managing any progress on this long awaited piece, after the construction of my new home and workspace I've encountered issues with my tools. I find that both keeping the entire canvas in the room along with all of my various pigments and brushes is nigh on impossible. It is also regrettable that the palette to house absolutely all colors that are required to work on this painting *at once *simply cannot fit in the same room as my other tools which understandably exacerbates the delays I have encountered.
> 
> Fear not! For in the last few years has produced the concept and inspiration for 4 main pieces of work that I plan on releasing in the near future. Yes, one of those pieces is indeed the much awaited project that requires a plethora of preparation and the correct environment to work on. The issues presented before truly hamper my inspiration to work on the ambitious piece, so regrettably even with all of the demand I must remind you all that the pace of an artist is not set by it's audience and this cannot be rushed. So please be patient as I work towards these future pieces, of which are thematically different and a return to form in more ways than one! These new pieces are currently inspiring me quite a bit, so please understand that they will more than likely release before the long awaited and expected piece that was promised with the crowdfunding project. Please understand that I am working at my own pace and at the current position I am in will probably produce more art to be appreciated or it may never actually come to fruition. So please handle your own expectations for my work as we move forward.
> 
> I will be updating you all soon on our next crowdfunding project to fund the next part of my artistic development!"
> 
> Can you imagine defending and funding delusions of this level? It's so laughably ridiculous that I find it hard to even rationalize his ramblings. Jari can suck my balls, modern computers have made do and produced some of the greatest music of our time and he's hiding behind not having the resources to load all tracks/plugins/samples and play/record them at the same time to bait his fans into buying him another 3 years.
> 
> I don't need to render 8k footage in Adobe Premiere natively while editing to make sure I release my project in time for a deadline, you downsample the video and work within your means. In literally any other industry if you leave a client hanging for 3 years you no longer have a client nor any credibility to harness any major support from your disappointed followers.
> 
> "But the music is epic!"


Wait, did he actually write all that shit? Like to the public? I wonder how many times he nutted on himself while doing it?


Metropolis said:


> Amazing band, as far as I know their vocalist Viktor is a sound engineer and does all sorts of stuff from tv-shows to metal.


So what you're saying is, having a fucking clue what you're actually doing produces results? Instead of pretending you know what you're doing? Weird, almost like that's the entire argument since the issues of "computer problems" arose.


----------



## p0ke

GunpointMetal said:


> So what you're saying is, having a fucking clue what you're actually doing produces results? Instead of pretending you know what you're doing? Weird, almost like that's the entire argument since the issues of "computer problems" arose.



Long story short -> Jari should use the crowdfunding money to hire Viktor to produce their albums


----------



## Jonathan20022

GunpointMetal said:


> Wait, did he actually write all that shit? Like to the public? I wonder how many times he nutted on himself while doing it?
> 
> So what you're saying is, having a fucking clue what you're actually doing produces results? Instead of pretending you know what you're doing? Weird, almost like that's the entire argument since the issues of "computer problems" arose.



https://www.sevenstring.org/threads...-time-ii-problems.276399/page-42#post-5167548

That's his post on Facebook from the band's profile, and his response to people calling him out are equally as ridiculous. 

My post was just me trying to translate it to another medium to illustrate how out of touch Jari is


----------



## Metropolis

Jonathan20022 said:


> https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/wintersuns-jari-mäenpää-on-time-ii-problems.276399/page-42#post-5167548
> 
> That's his post on Facebook from the band's profile, and his response to people calling him out are equally as ridiculous.
> 
> My post was just me trying to translate it to another medium to illustrate how out of touch Jari is


----------



## brector

Metropolis said:


>


The irony of you posting a Trump meme is mind-blowing


----------



## Metropolis

brector said:


> The irony of you posting a Trump meme is mind-blowing



Just have fun with it.


----------



## SamSam

Metropolis said:


> Just have fun with it.



I doubt even Jari is having fun with this.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Jonathan20022 said:


> My post was just me trying to translate it to another medium to illustrate how out of touch Jari is


The entirety of his responses remind me of a kid that gets caught in a lie, but instead of admitting error, just digs in deeper.


----------



## Metropolis

GunpointMetal said:


> The entirety of his responses remind me of a kid that gets caught in a lie, but instead of admitting error, just digs in deeper.



Making claims about "more skilled people" to work someone else's music or art is a lie in itself. I'm shure a person who has made this way over 20 years can handle things. But you're just over exxagrating how it really is. There's a band around him, and those dudes do trust him as well. They would have been long gone if it wouldn't be the case.

If making a fake adapted updates with references to original thing is not deep in shit, then I don't know what is.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Metropolis said:


> Making claims about "more skilled people" to work someone else's music or art is a lie in itself. I'm shure a person who has made this way over 20 years can handle things. But you're just over exxagrating how it really is. There's a band around him, and those dudes do trust him as well. They would have been long gone if it wouldn't be the case.
> 
> If making a fake adapted updates with references to original thing is not deep in shit, then I don't know what is.


We get it, you're secretly him, or you're in love with him, or he's your dad or something. Your arguments are just as hair-brained and silly as anyone else's in here. If this conversation hurts you so much, there's an easy way to deal with it.


----------



## Jonathan20022

EDIT: Double post


----------



## Jonathan20022

Metropolis said:


> Making claims about "more skilled people" to work someone else's music or art is a lie in itself. I'm shure a person who has made this way over 20 years can handle things. But you're just over exxagrating how it really is. There's a band around him, and those dudes do trust him as well. They would have been long gone if it wouldn't be the case.
> If making a fake adapted updates with references to original thing is not deep in shit, then I don't know what is.


Unironically putting doubt in the band - producer relationship that has worked and promoted positive workflow for ages.

Jari has stumbled his way over the last 20 years at best.


----------



## Metropolis

Jonathan20022 said:


> Unironically putting doubt in the band - producer relationship that has worked and promoted positive workflow for ages.
> Jari has stumbled his way over the last 20 years at best.



Ensiferum's first album was mixed by Tuomo Valtonen, mastered by Mika Jussila. Their second was produced by Flemming Rasmunssen, who has for example Metallica's Master Of Puppets under his belt. Wintersun's debut were recorded with Tuomo Valtonen, mixed by Nino Laurenne and mastered again by Mika Jussila (who's a great engineer by the way, one of the best in this country). Mastering of Time I was made in co-operation with Mika. So there's 20 years of "stumbling". Probably enough experience from the past to do it by himself, like The Forest Seasons was done.


----------



## Kwert

I'm really confused as to why anyone at all continues to defend this clown. 

"Yes, other people and bands have done it one way but that's not the way Jari and Wintersun does it."

Well then they're doing it wrong and it's nonsense that he refuses to change his methodology in order to actually produce something.

"I don't know why anyone thinks Jari owes them new music."

He owes them new music because they gave him money to produce said music. Simple as that. Lets say I was a luthier that you paid a deposit to for an instrument, and I promised it within a certain timeframe. Then lets say I keep saying things like "oh, my CNC machine is too old, I need a new one. My fret files are from the wrong company, I need to get the newest ones from Stewmac. Seymour Duncan didn't ship me the pickups from the correct year of their custom shop, I need them to make me brand new ones", until it's many years past the expected timeframe, you don't have a guitar and you're out a few hundred bucks. I continue to make excuses, and you still don't have your instrument. How does this make you feel? Do I owe you a new guitar?


----------



## Metropolis

Kwert said:


> I'm really confused as to why anyone at all continues to defend this clown.
> 
> "Yes, other people and bands have done it one way but that's not the way Jari and Wintersun does it."
> 
> Well then they're doing it wrong and it's nonsense that he refuses to change his methodology in order to actually produce something.
> 
> "I don't know why anyone thinks Jari owes them new music."
> 
> He owes them new music because they gave him money to produce said music. Simple as that. Lets say I was a luthier that you paid a deposit to for an instrument, and I promised it within a certain timeframe. Then lets say I keep saying things like "oh, my CNC machine is too old, I need a new one. My fret files are from the wrong company, I need to get the newest ones from Stewmac. Seymour Duncan didn't ship me the pickups from the correct year of their custom shop, I need them to make me brand new ones", until it's many years past the expected timeframe, you don't have a guitar and you're out a few hundred bucks. I continue to make excuses, and you still don't have your instrument. How does this make you feel? Do I owe you a new guitar?



Crowdfunding is still not a contract between a band and it's fans. So it's not owing.

Plan hasn't changed, these angry "fans" just want to have everything delivered in front of them quickly as possible. And create unneccessary drama in the meantime.

_"Buying the FOREST PACKAGE directly from us you will get the true highest quality experience to enjoy our new album and you will also help us to build the Wintersun Headquarters studio & rehearsal place, enabling us to finish TIME II and start recording our future albums with our true vision and release them faster to YOU!"_
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/wintersun-crowdfunding--3#/_
_
At least recording new music is going on.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Metropolis said:


> Ensiferum's first album was mixed by Tuomo Valtonen, mastered by Mika Jussila. Their second was produced by Flemming Rasmunssen, who has for example Metallica's Master Of Puppets under his belt. Wintersun's debut were recorded with Tuomo Valtonen, mixed by Nino Laurenne and mastered again by Mika Jussila (who's a great engineer by the way, one of the best in this country). Mastering of Time I was made in co-operation with Mika. So there's 20 years of "stumbling". Probably enough experience from the past to do it by himself, like The Forest Seasons was done.



3 Releases over the course of 20 years isn't much work. The pace is horrendous and you're missing my point in stumbling. Time is money if you spend 10x the time that your peers spend it's waste.


----------



## Jarmake

Metropolis said:


> Probably enough experience from the past to do it by himself, like The Forest Seasons was done.



The forest seasons sounds like shit. The sound is horrible and fizzy. The only thing that's good in it is the chorus from loneliness. I like Jari's singing in that quite a lot.

Time1 is much better in the live studio version, because you can actually hear the real instruments instead of the overpowering wind chimes and other vst instruments.

The self titled album sounds very clear and focused.

I hope Jari would let someone else do the mixing, because he isn't really that good, imo. All these excuses and updates just sound like he is having a writers block or something like that and can't come up with anything good and he is just covering it up with lies and excuses.

Jari doesn't owe me anything (I didn't take part in the crowdfunding, nor will take part on any in the future) and quite frankly I don't even care if there is any new music in the future, but you seem to love him and wintersun, so you do you.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Jarmake said:


> The forest seasons sounds like shit. The sound is horrible and fizzy.



Thank you.  I'm not a Wintersun fan but I got curious and checked out Forest Seasons out of curiosity. I was expecting a LOT more production wise. The drums stick out like a sore fucking thumb.


----------



## Metropolis

Jarmake said:


> The forest seasons sounds like shit. The sound is horrible and fizzy. The only thing that's good in it is the chorus from loneliness. I like Jari's singing in that quite a lot.
> 
> Time1 is much better in the live studio version, because you can actually hear the real instruments instead of the overpowering wind chimes and other vst instruments.
> 
> The self titled album sounds very clear and focused.
> 
> I hope Jari would let someone else do the mixing, because he isn't really that good, imo. All these excuses and updates just sound like he is having a writers block or something like that and can't come up with anything good and he is just covering it up with lies and excuses.
> 
> Jari doesn't owe me anything (I didn't take part in the crowdfunding, nor will take part on any in the future) and quite frankly I don't even care if there is any new music in the future, but you seem to love him and wintersun, so you do you.



It's fizzy, but in this case intentional. Sometimes that and over the top snare drum bothers me a little bit. Jari wanted cold and more raw sound for the album, he was probably inspired by some black metal at the time. It has lots of fizzy sounding two note octave, fifth and seventh chords to make that sound. Loneliness has definetly one of the best clean vocals by him.

He mixed also Time I, original was sonically too filled but re-mastered version is better in that area. Forest Pack had also re-mastered version of debut, which is done by Jari. To my ears it sounds even clearer than original. So he's not so bad as an engineer.


----------



## TedEH

Should we start taking bets as to how long it will take the rest of Time to come out and for this thread to finally die? I'm voting 2032.

If me in ten years comes back to read this because we're still arguing about it:
Hi me. I hope life is good, and that this thread is still golden.


----------



## nickgray

TedEH said:


> Should we start taking bets as to how long it will take the rest of Time to come out and for this thread to finally die? I'm voting 2032.



I want to say after Tool releases an album, but they did actually release an album


----------



## Kovah

Lorcan Ward said:


> IMO Aether Realm are on par with Wintersun. This 20 minute epic would fit right in on Wintersun’s previous two releases. It really peaks in the last 5 mins for anyone that just wants to skip forward.




This is actually awesome!


----------



## Dyingsea

Metropolis said:


> Ensiferum's first album was mixed by Tuomo Valtonen, mastered by Mika Jussila. Their second was produced by Flemming Rasmunssen, who has for example Metallica's Master Of Puppets under his belt. .



Just piped in to say I thought the first Ensiferum album sounded so much better and organic. Iron was compressed to crap and lacks dynamics. The snare is almost unbearable it's compressed so much. That being said I love the first two albums. Iron deserved better because it was so epic. Too much Metallica like production IMO when they had their own sound they should have been striving for. Anyways back to to the Wintersun arguments...


----------



## Metropolis

This is like canadian Wintersun. Wait what, vocalist/guitar player even has finnish sounding name, "Mattias Sippola"


----------



## Masoo2

Metropolis said:


> This is like canadian Wintersun. Wait what, vocalist/guitar player even has finnish sounding name, "Mattias Sippola"



I skipped to like 29:20 and the following minute was genuinely indistinguishable from Wintersun lmao, sounds right out of Time I, added to my albums on Spotify cause this is pretty solid


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

TedEH said:


> Should we start taking bets as to how long it will take the rest of Time to come out and for this thread to finally die? I'm voting 2032.
> 
> If me in ten years comes back to read this because we're still arguing about it:
> Hi me. I hope life is good, and that this thread is still golden.



same year the next GoT and Kingkiller books come out


----------



## works0fheart

*LONG POST *_Again_

You know, I came back to this thread thinking there might be some sane thought after the last, monotonous rant where I laid out how much of a steaming pile Jari's excuses were. Conveniently most of what, if not all of what I said was conveniently (deliberately) ignored by people like Metropolis here because I guess the actual quotes from the band itself stung a little too much to even pay attention to. It seems though, in this time since I've previously read this mess of a thread it's only gotten worse somehow? lol

Anyways, let's see what we've got here I guess... One thing at a time because I'm stuck at a desk at work and this will kill some time. So yeah, let's queue up some replies to the non-sense and some convenient mental and visual gymnastics by Metropolis here since he'll either ignore the parts where he's been proven wrong as per usual, or just spew one of the same lines he already has been. Okay cool, so here we go.



Metropolis said:


> Of course he isn't the only one, and what are the actual problems, no one knows exactly.



Well, we do know actually because he's told us outright, hence people criticizing him. He's been playing the "Mah computer isn't powerful enough" thing for years now. Problem is that it's 2020 and people have been making close-to, just-as, and even more intricate music for well over 10 years on less powerful computers.

That argument doesn't fly. Please stop with this one.



Metropolis said:


> These are just assumptions. If it's about software compatibility, then it may be easier to tackle.



I really don't know what else it could be at this point outside of what he's already said? Not attacking you with this one, I'm being serious. I for the life of me can't bring to mind what the issue could be after half a million dollars, a studio, an Axe Fx, a Kemper, whatever-that-other-new-modeler-is, and tons of other gear that I've seen them posts that I don't feel like listing since this is going to be long already.



Metropolis said:


> "You don't know that" is just a general figure of speech for this as a subject and a specific situation.



It's not a general figure of speech. It's you trying to validate your continuously failing arguments and since you've run out of ways to do that, this is just the easiest road for you to take.



Metropolis said:


> Promises are invaluable because things tend to change.



You know what doesn't tend to change though? The excuses. It's been 14 years. I've been reading about Jari's various problems since I was a teenager and here I am all of these years later and he's still only released half of his "magnum opus"



Metropolis said:


> Someone out there is having similar problems, but they render tracks into different projects to prevent this happening.



Okay, I'm on board with this. This is you having a passing glance at a rational thought. I like this, let's try to see if we can get more of these while we're here.



Metropolis said:


> Jari doesn't want to do that. It doesn't matter what everyone else does.



Annnnd we lost him... We were so close too!

Okay. So to put this simple, "Yes-it-freaking-does".

But to elaborate, what do you when you have a problem with something? You usually look it up to see what other people do to approach that problem and try the same steps that worked for them. Or I guess you can just repeatedly try to do the same thing over and over, failing each time.

I think that's the definition of insanity isn't it? Doing the same thing over and over but expecting a different result?

*Some examples: *
- Kind of like putting your hand on a stove coil that's glowing red and wondering if this time it will burn you.
- Trying to run several hundred tracks in a program that you mostly thought you knew your way around to find out that you don't, but maybe it won't crash this time?
- Throwing money at a band that has been promising an album for a decade and a half but still has yet to release it. Surely if I buy this Jari Maenpaa body pillow for $200 and subscribe to Kai Hahto's new cooking channel for the low price of $20 a month they'll release the other 5 tracks of the album.



Ataraxia2320 said:


> No, it's a Jari issue. There are literally tens of thousands of other audio engineers out there using Cubase 10 with hundreds of tracks going. And they aren't running hardware half as powerful as the new mac pros.
> 
> If you really believe it's a software issue I have a bridge to sell you.





TedEH said:


> Legitimate question: Why are you so invested in defending Jari?
> 
> I just keep coming back because I find the fact that we're 45 pages into this kinda fascinating, and apparently I just like arguing. But I don't get what you get out of it.



I love how this one conveniently never got addressed, but I guess I'm just going to have to quote this question in every post I make in this thread to get an answer out of Metropolis. Hell, I might even just put it in my signature so maybe the words will eventually reach him.



Metropolis said:


> You aren't still behind his seat, do you? No one knows what he's exactly doing to cause such problems.



To be honest, I think at this point people would be more infuriated if they _were_ behind him watching him because he apparently doesn't have the ability to admit that he doesn't know what he's doing. I don't really care what he's doing at this point and I think a majority of people don't either.

This man's music doesn't measure up to his ego.

Man could be sampling his own farts into orchestral arrangements at this point for all I know or care, but to sit there and lie to your fan base and blatantly con them is wrong.



Metropolis said:


> Why are some people so invested into an idea that he owes new music to them?



It's like you missed the entire part where I pointed this out to you last time.

The answer is because, in a way* HE DOES
*
But, just in case you want to argue this point, again, I'll go ahead and quote the band from their very own indiegogo page, again.



> All the raised funds will be *used to build the Wintersun Headquarters*. This will *enable us to finish TIME II without compromises* with our true vision!



Now, their initial goal of ~$150k was well reached, which was their point that they should have been well enough off to make this album. Good thing they raised over 3x that right? There's also the fact that labels require you to release material. That's how labels work. They quite literally owe them releases lol. They're not there to just fund this band with nothing in return, which is essentially what's happened as Wintersun has been shying away from releases via their label and instead through their own content such as Patreon and crowdfunding.



Metropolis said:


> It seems really weird because we are talking about music anyway, and making entertainment or art isn't that predictable as a whole.



I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Yes, I'm sure no one predicted it being 14 years and this album being out.



TedEH said:


> You didn't answer my question. I'm still legitimately curious why you're so invested.



*AS ARE WE ALL SIR, AS ARE WE ALL.*



TedEH said:


> But sure - I'll reiterate why there's so much opposition (discounting any "we just like to argue" element), cause I think lots of reasons have been given.
> In no particular order:
> - Jari is setting a precedent that being an artist means you don't have to do any actual work, and people will back you anyway
> - There's a perpetuation of the idea that you should just be able to "follow your dreams" regardless of skill level, viability of that profession, effort, etc
> - Jari's ego is a bit embarrassing to the community he belong to (which includes us)
> - Some people have given money to Jari and don't feel like they got out of it what they should have
> - Other fans are disappointed that it's taking so long for promised material to come out _because they are still fans and still want to hear the music_
> - Easily refutable misinformation is being spread on the basis of defending one vaguely-famous person's ego
> - It's an interesting conversation, like the last guy said.
> 
> I can think of more ways to phrase this, but I think my point is made.



I don't know how many times each of these points need to be raised before people read them and then understand them. You hit the nail on the head. Nothing really to add on this.


----------



## works0fheart

Metropolis said:


> It doesn't matter what other bands do and music isn't a competition. Nightwish's genre alone is quite different which makes it really hard to compare them with each other.




Didn't Kai Hahto literally play in Nightwish?! 


Just because Wintersun has some growling vocals from time to time doesn't make them a unique snowflake in 2020. Covered this in my last post too. There are plenty of bands within the same genre, with sound that is about as similar as it gets, that accomplish more than Wintersun does, with less.




Metropolis said:


> Tuomas had massive budgets, around half a million euros per album.




Man, if only Wintersun could somehow raise that much money... Oh wait, they did! That's right! Yeah, that _did _happen! They've even got a Patreon now! Plus endorsements and money they've made off of merch and touring! Whoa, it's almost like the point you tried to make is completely invalid, much like everything else you've said in this thread! Crazy!




Metropolis said:


> As an end product he doesn't have to rely on computers that much, and style is also different.




So maybe hiring someone to help them and use said person's facilities instead was the way to go? It's lmost like this was a better idea than wasting a ton of money on purchasing equipment that Jari barely appears to know how to use.





Metropolis said:


> Who are these infamous demo artists who top Jari's work in sheer quality of the music? In a similar frame of genre of course.




Again, covered this in a previous post. Don't sit here and present questions that you're not willing to read the answers to.


Equilibrium. The album Sagas alone goes to show that a band that's not even a fraction as popular as Wintersun can release an album that's as good.

We've also got literally every release Kalmah has ever made.

There's also the first 3 Children of Bodom albums which weren't high budget albums and still sound great to this day.

There's also Phobos Monolith by Mare Cognitum. It's a 1-man band with next to no recognition and the music is just as melodic and well written.


Don't make arguments you're not prepared to accept the answers to.




Metropolis said:


> Jari being one of the pioneers of this modern folk epic melodeath stylel, that's another underestimation. Music again is a personal thing.




You can be the pioneer of something and still be a pretentious douche. Look at Yngwie Malmsteen. He's one of the biggest ego's in the business but at least he puts out albums, and most of it he writes himself, so at least his is somewhat justified.




Metropolis said:


> I don't know, recent years in realm of metal what I have listened. Fleshgod Apocalypse and Septicflesh manage to have orchestrated sound mixed with death metal. Equilibrium is a german epic metal band, their three first albums were amazing. Couple of latest Blind Guardian albums... there is lot of that in the power metal side too. Epica is one of my favorite symphonic metal bands.
> 
> 
> If you start digging you may find lots of other bands which share similar elements in their music, which can be equally "epic" just in a different way.




It's funny that literally just a few posts again you were asking for bands that make music that's as epic as Wintersun with less budget to prove your point, and then now you go ahead and mention several bands that do exactly that 




Metropolis said:


> How's that so. After 2006 they released two albums, and toured every common continent except South-America. *They aren't half albums, 40 & 53 minutes are full albums.*




Jfc, the album's are literally called TIME I and TIME II. *FFS IT'S LITERALLY AN ALBUM THAT'S BEEN CUT IN HALF!!! TIME I HAS 5 SONGS!!!*


Don't even get me started on The Forgettable Seasons or whatever it's called.




Metropolis said:


> 3 years without releasing an album is also totally normal.




*IT HAS BEEN 14 YEARS*




Metropolis said:


> After The Forest Seasons released began their most extensive touring cycle which lasted from spring 2017 to july 2019. It included Europe, New-Zealand & Australia, Japan and North-America. They also played at 70,000 Tons Of Metal 2020. Don't know about clients hanging. I have seen them five times live beginning from 2006.




Oh boy, can't wait to see the same band playing the same songs they've been playing since their inception almost 20 years ago because that's the only material they have that's worth a damn.




TedEH said:


> I've already explained how this is so. The album Time was promised in 2006, and only half of that content ever made it out.




*OH BUT I THOUGHT THEY WEREN'T HALF ALBUMS?!*


----------



## works0fheart

Metropolis said:


> Making claims about "more skilled people" to work someone else's music or art is a lie in itself. *I'm shure a person who has made this way over 20 years can handle things*.




Yes, because stumbling through and messing up every chance that Jari has been given is definitely "handling things" lmao



Metropolis said:


> But you're just over exxagrating how it really is. There's a band around him, and those dudes do trust him as well. They would have been long gone if it wouldn't be the case.




Yeah, it's crazy how some of the most famous con men in history have been good enough manipulators to cause people to stick around them or throw money at them. Weird. If not that I guess making a half a million dollars and showing nothing for it only to have a fanbase still defend my terrible decisions would probably be a good reason for me to stay in a band as well.




Metropolis said:


> Crowdfunding is still not a contract between a band and it's fans. So it's not owing.




This was already covered up top, but just in case you didn't read it, I'm going to give you some simple instructions.


Scroll up.


Use your eyes.


Now undo the alphabet soup.


There are words.


Read them.


Comprehend them.


Comprehend them.



Metropolis said:


> Plan hasn't changed, these angry "fans" just want to have everything delivered in front of them quickly as possible. And create unneccessary drama in the meantime.




LMAO


How dare they want an album completed that's been hyped up since 2004 and a 1/2 a million dollars later!! What entitled bastards they are! 





Metropolis said:


> At least recording new music is going on.




"YoU DoN't KnOw ThAt, YoU'Re NoT sTaNdInG OvEr HiS sHoULdeRs"


Sorry, just a figure of speech or something.




Metropolis said:


> Seems Steinberg did some sort of fixing update in the end of last year, but still people keep having issues with performance. And Steinberg's support siten can't really suggest anything than usual optimization settings for audio production.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a Jari issue, it's a software issue. Being a professional isn't an argument either, because you really don't know what is going on. I haven't seen great detail about it here.




Then, again, you're literally picking and choosing what to pay attention to. People in here have explained to you several times how it literally can be nothing other than it being "a Jari issue" and you just can't accept that for some reason...


Which brings us back to the circle and unanswered question of "Why are you defending him so heavily?" that's still yet to be answered even when you've had facts like these presented to you.




j3ps3 said:


> Are you?
> 
> 
> Every time somebody explains to you in a great detail (to my understanding some of these people here are professionals?) why it doesn't go the way Jari tells you, and you run out of valid arguments, you just idle for two pages and then start with your bs all over again.




Amen brother, amen.


Honestly, I have a hard time believing this guy is anything but trolling at this point. Problem is that it's 2020 and it hurts to think that there are still people out there who believe the non-sense that Wintersun blows their way.




Metropolis said:


> So... maybe he will in the future if it's not going to have other fix?




Yes, the indications so far over the last decade and a half certainly indicate a release very soon and I'm sure that by now the new Wintersun album will be at least half as interesting as the hype surrounding it has made it out to be. Hell, at this point it's like the 3rd coming of Jesus or something so I expect nothing less than my brain to explode from sonic nirvana as Jari escorts my soul to the great Sauna in Valhalla or something. I don't know. I've got nothing. My enthusiasm for this thread has turned into genuine sadness by the end of it upon realizing that people really will throw money at anything...


----------



## TedEH

I didn't make enough popcorn for this thread. I can feel the frustration from here


----------



## BlackSG91

I sure dig Wintersun's music but WTF is this thing with Jari? After reading most of the posts on here I think Jari is a BIG TIME procrastinator!


;>)/


----------



## Antiproduct

I want someone to write an album in the style of Wintersun using this rant on a linux computer from 2006


----------



## ArtDecade

Man, you'd think Wintersun were Swedish with how much Stockholm Syndrome is going on with the Finnish fans.


----------



## Metropolis

works0fheart said:


> Yes, because stumbling through and messing up every chance that Jari has been given is definitely "handling things" lmao
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, it's crazy how some of the most famous con men in history have been good enough manipulators to cause people to stick around them or throw money at them. Weird. If not that I guess making a half a million dollars and showing nothing for it only to have a fanbase still defend my terrible decisions would probably be a good reason for me to stay in a band as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This was already covered up top, but just in case you didn't read it, I'm going to give you some simple instructions.
> 
> 
> Scroll up.
> 
> 
> Use your eyes.
> 
> 
> Now undo the alphabet soup.
> 
> 
> There are words.
> 
> 
> Read them.
> 
> 
> Comprehend them.
> 
> 
> Comprehend them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LMAO
> 
> 
> How dare they want an album completed that's been hyped up since 2004 and a 1/2 a million dollars later!! What entitled bastards they are!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "YoU DoN't KnOw ThAt, YoU'Re NoT sTaNdInG OvEr HiS sHoULdeRs"
> 
> 
> Sorry, just a figure of speech or something.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then, again, you're literally picking and choosing what to pay attention to. People in here have explained to you several times how it literally can be nothing other than it being "a Jari issue" and you just can't accept that for some reason...
> 
> 
> Which brings us back to the circle and unanswered question of "Why are you defending him so heavily?" that's still yet to be answered even when you've had facts like these presented to you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amen brother, amen.
> 
> 
> Honestly, I have a hard time believing this guy is anything but trolling at this point. Problem is that it's 2020 and it hurts to think that there are still people out there who believe the non-sense that Wintersun blows their way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, the indications so far over the last decade and a half certainly indicate a release very soon and I'm sure that by now the new Wintersun album will be at least half as interesting as the hype surrounding it has made it out to be. Hell, at this point it's like the 3rd coming of Jesus or something so I expect nothing less than my brain to explode from sonic nirvana as Jari escorts my soul to the great Sauna in Valhalla or something. I don't know. I've got nothing. My enthusiasm for this thread has turned into genuine sadness by the end of it upon realizing that people really will throw money at anything...



The biggest prize of most looped counters goes to this post, man. There is nothing new in these, I know things can be put like this, or any other way, but I just don't do it because being reasonable, patient and not bitter is way to go in this moment of Wintersun.


----------



## j3ps3

Metropolis said:


> The biggest prize of most looped counters goes to this post, man. There is nothing new in these, I know things can be put like this, or any other way, but I just don't do it because being reasonable, patient and not bitter is way to go in this moment of Wintersun.



You know why they are being repeated? Because you fail to address the points - every time.


----------



## Metropolis

ArtDecade said:


> Man, you'd think Wintersun were Swedish with how much Stockholm Syndrome is going on with the Finnish fans.



Your level of input in this thread is stupidly low.


----------



## Jarmake

This thread is almost exactly the same as it is on a finnish messageboard too... With the same guy defending Jari too!


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Metropolis said:


> Your level of input in this thread is stupidly low.



Quality over quantity.


----------



## j3ps3

Metropolis said:


> Your level of input in this thread is stupidly low.



I actually laughed out loud to this comment. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.


----------



## SamSam

MaxOfMetal said:


> Quality over quantity.



Hey! Don't steal Jari's argument!


----------



## Metropolis

MaxOfMetal said:


> Quality over quantity.



Probably not. Maybe he just had difficulties grabbing on my thoughts, and put short snarky answers instead as a defensive mechanism or something. In top of that as a total outsider to the band. And please don't ask again why the opinion doesn't matter to me if you don't listen to the band.



Jarmake said:


> This thread is almost exactly the same as it is on a finnish messageboard too... With the same guy defending Jari too!



I see what you did there... I've been banned from there since last november. But I will return in a few months!


----------



## MaxOfMetal

SamSam said:


> Hey! Don't steal Jari's argument!



How meta!


----------



## Flappydoodle

After reading some of the praise in this thread, I went to listen to Time on Spotify.

I guess I just don't "get" it. 

It's Skyrim music. Kinda cheesy.

What's the genius that people are throwing money and demanding more?


----------



## Jarmake

Metropolis said:


> I see what you did there... I've been banned from there since last november. But I will return in a few months!



Oh, didn't know that. What the hell did you do to get a years worth of vacation on banana islands? Moderation on mnet seems to be all over the place these days anyway...


----------



## Metropolis

Jarmake said:


> Oh, didn't know that. What the hell did you do to get a years worth of vacation on banana islands? Moderation on mnet seems to be all over the place these days anyway...



Got my messages reported too many times and moderators probably got fed up to inspecting them. One year in banana islands... Moderation is really lazy, it doesn't work at all, or it doesn't exist there. And moderators don't even care to be a part of the forums there, like for example MaxOfMetal is here.



Flappydoodle said:


> After reading some of the praise in this thread, I went to listen to Time on Spotify.
> 
> I guess I just don't "get" it.
> 
> It's Skyrim music. Kinda cheesy.
> 
> What's the genius that people are throwing money and demanding more?



Name a metal band that isn't cheesy and doesn't have little bit of self irony in their doings.


----------



## Kwert

Metropolis said:


> Crowdfunding is still not a contract between a band and it's fans. So it's not owing.
> 
> Plan hasn't changed, these angry "fans" just want to have everything delivered in front of them quickly as possible. And create unneccessary drama in the meantime.
> 
> _"Buying the FOREST PACKAGE directly from us you will get the true highest quality experience to enjoy our new album and you will also help us to build the Wintersun Headquarters studio & rehearsal place, enabling us to finish TIME II and start recording our future albums with our true vision and release them faster to YOU!"_
> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/wintersun-crowdfunding--3#/
> 
> At least recording new music is going on.




You're really grasping at straws here. The reality is if it's taking Jari this long to put out this record, he's doing something wrong. He's not a New Complexity composer, and he's certainly not doing anything groundbreaking with his music.

If you’re talking about the number of tracks being an issue, I recall reading that Blind Guardian’s “And Then There Was Silence” had something like 126 guitar tracks. Then you have tons of vocal layering, synths, bass, drums etc. That was released in 2002 and still sounds better and more interesting than anything Wintersun has put out. 

Hell, as many people have pointed out, look at film scores. Not sure if you’re aware but it’s much more rare for anyone to use a real orchestra anymore since it costs so much fucking money to do so (I am a career cellist so I do know what I’m talking about here). Use of sound libraries/VSTs are common and you’re talking about rich, epic orchestral scores here. Nobody in this world is experiencing these “problems” that Jari claims to be. 

“There are many ways you can frame this!” 

Sure, but all the ways you’re framing it are the wrong ones.


----------



## TedEH

Metropolis said:


> In top of that as a total outsider to the band


I don't understand what you're saying here. Is this an admission that you're a part of the band or something? Or part of their team/crew/whatever they have? If so, that would explain a lot of things.


----------



## Metropolis

Kwert said:


> You're really grasping at straws here. The reality is if it's taking Jari this long to put out this record, he's doing something wrong. He's not a New Complexity composer, and he's certainly not doing anything groundbreaking with his music.
> 
> If you’re talking about the number of tracks being an issue, I recall reading that Blind Guardian’s “And Then There Was Silence” had something like 126 guitar tracks. Then you have tons of vocal layering, synths, bass, drums etc. That was released in 2002 and still sounds better and more interesting than anything Wintersun has put out.
> 
> Hell, as many people have pointed out, look at film scores. Not sure if you’re aware but it’s much more rare for anyone to use a real orchestra anymore since it costs so much fucking money to do so (I am a career cellist so I do know what I’m talking about here). Use of sound libraries/VSTs are common and you’re talking about rich, epic orchestral scores here. Nobody in this world is experiencing these “problems” that Jari claims to be.
> 
> “There are many ways you can frame this!”
> 
> Sure, but all the ways you’re framing it are the wrong ones.



He's been working other albums and he left working part two of Time for years, and has been working it forward lately. What's so hard to understand there? No one has said anything about it being super ground breaking and so on. Whatever exactly Jari's problems are, he will beat them like with Time I. Again all the updates or promises don't matter because things and situations change. If someone in this thread would tell me things that I don't know, it would be nice.

For the Blind Guardian song; ThOsE aRe jUsT sAmE NoTeS with an octave or harmony.


----------



## Metropolis

TedEH said:


> I don't understand what you're saying here. Is this an admission that you're a part of the band or something? Or part of their team/crew/whatever they have? If so, that would explain a lot of things.



I'm not associated with the band in any other way than as a listener of their music.


----------



## j3ps3

Metropolis said:


> He's been working other albums and he left working part two of Time for years, and has been working it forward lately




YoU dOn'T kNoW tHaT 'cAuSe YoU'rE nOt SiTtInG bEhInD hIm


----------



## Metropolis

j3ps3 said:


> YoU dOn'T kNoW tHaT 'cAuSe YoU'rE nOt SiTtInG bEhInD hIm



Other albums counts The Forest Seasons. Released in 2017, or are your memories that short. Update about three other album concepts being under work is really about as old as that too.


----------



## TedEH

Metropolis said:


> No one has said anything about it being super ground breaking and so on.


I could have sworn you yourself said something along those lines, but I'm too lazy to go back and ready 50 pages of this thread to verify it.



Metropolis said:


> ThOsE aRe jUsT sAmE NoTeS with an octave or harmony.


Given that Wintersun plays within the same 12-tone scale that most western music does, there's zero way that all 9000 tracks he uses are unique notes and melodies. That's not how music works.


----------



## SamSam

Metropolis said:


> For the Blind Guardian song; ThOsE aRe jUsT sAmE NoTeS with an octave or harmony.



Shit man, I never knew using different notes required more computing power.

And here we are with our 1s and 0s.

No wonder we cannot comprehend why Jari's Mac Pro can't handle his music!


----------



## Zalbu

Nightwishs second album, Oceanborn, was released in _1998 _and still sounds better than The Forest Seasons production wise, despite Tuomas admitting he had no idea about what he was doing and ended up with 20 violin tracks on one song. I wonder what Tuomas did differently compared to Jari? Took in outside help for things he knew he couldn't handle himself.


----------



## Metropolis

Zalbu said:


> Nightwishs second album, Oceanborn, was released in _1998 _and still sounds better than The Forest Seasons production wise, despite Tuomas admitting he had no idea about what he was doing and ended up with 20 violin tracks on one song. I wonder what Tuomas did differently compared to Jari? Took in outside help for things he knew he couldn't handle himself.



Great album, but objectively from todays standpoint lots of orchestrated sounds from it sound pretty cheap. But it doesn't make music any worse because times were different. You can hear there is not that much tracks and most of it is just individual synth tracks. Track count in The Forest seasons is around 100+ instead of over filled Time I's 200 tracks.


----------



## foreright

WHY does he need more than 200 tracks though? I must admit I’d never really heard of these guys but checked out this “epic” music earlier today and... I don’t really get the fuss. It’s all a bit emperors new clothes - Jari has obviously never heard the phrase “less is more” that’s for sure. All the stuff I heard earlier sounds like mush to me but what do I know.


----------



## GunpointMetal

foreright said:


> WHY does he need more than 200 tracks though? I must admit I’d never really heard of these guys but checked out this “epic” music earlier today and... I don’t really get the fuss. It’s all a bit emperors new clothes - Jari has obviously never heard the phrase “less is more” that’s for sure. All the stuff I heard earlier sounds like mush to me but what do I know.


He doesn't. So many unnecessary layers that are just there to be there.


----------



## j3ps3

Metropolis said:


> Other albums counts The Forest Seasons. Released in 2017, or are your memories that short. Update about three other album concepts being under work is really about as old as that too.



Wow, such a surprise that you completely disregarded the point, which was



Metropolis said:


> He's been working other albums and he left working part two of Time for years, and has been _________working it forward lately._________



My question was, how do you exactly know that? Me saying "I just read what Jari wrote" is not an argument for you, so I'm not gonna give you a pass on this one either.

Also, been working so had no time to respond, but not gonna act like you and just ignore the questions given to me, so:




Metropolis said:


> No releases equals no tours, and there is not so big market for epic melodeath anyway. Hanz Zimmer doesn't produce, play or do everything else by himself. He has a big chunk of producers and other musicians who work with him, entirely different business also. Only relative thing is that it's music what he's making.



Just the first sentence already is bs. Granted, you need to be a stable name to do tours without new music and gather an audience. But still: your point was? If you need money and touring to make a record, we wouldn't have any music in this world we live in. Making music costs you absolutely _nothing_. Also saying that "making somebody more skilled than you work over your music is a lie" is a fucking laughable statement. The fuck, dude? Recording at home hasn't been around for that long.

And how come music is the only thing relating them? You asked for epic music that is hard on the computer. Are you saying that the music Hans Zimmer does doesn't count as such?



Metropolis said:


> I don't know, recent years in realm of metal what I have listened. Fleshgod Apocalypse and Septicflesh manage to have orchestrated sound mixed with death metal. Equilibrium is a german epic metal band, their three first albums were amazing. Couple of latest Blind Guardian albums... there is lot of that in the power metal side too. Epica is one of my favorite symphonic metal bands.
> 
> If you start digging you may find lots of other bands which share similar elements in their music, which can be equally "epic" just in a different way.



Others, who already know the genre better than I do (before you have a take on this, yes, I can comment about this. I've never said anything about the music - I've only criticized how Jari handles stuff outside music. And if he'd actually be honest about it, I'd have no problem. So far it hasn't been the case.) , have already listed bands so not gonna comment on this. But don't you yourself find it hilarious that you're asking for as-epic-as-wintersun-bands from us in the way like there couldn't be one, and when asked, you can come up with multiple bands that you yourself approve as such?



Metropolis said:


> Great album, but objectively from todays standpoint lots of orchestrated sounds from it sound pretty cheap.



Since you seem to be such an expert on epic production, what exactly makes them sound objectively cheap? I don't really like the mix Wintersun has so... I mean, it's not bad, but it's not ground breaking on any level.. So how come my opinion is a subjective matter and yours is objective?


----------



## ArtDecade

200 tracks and not a note worth recording.


----------



## Velokki

I feel I could waste 3 hours writing a long ass post about this whole Wintersun farce, but summed up:
-Jari seeks absolute perfection
-Absolute perfection doesn't exist
-The band has a lot of enthusiastic fans, on the borderline of a religion
-Jari gets a lot of praise daily from the fans
-Jari has many times lost almost all objectivity when it comes to production. Time 1 was one of the most horrible mixes I've ever heard. Forest Seasons was great though.
-He's a total control freak - which isn't a bad thing. Many great creators share this trait.
-He's high up on himself. Might be a slight personality disorder, too. He wants adoration and supremacy. Just read the Wintersun posts - it's always about me me me, and blaming the external circumistances (blaming Nuclear Blast, lack of CPU power or any other lack of means to achieve something). He really does play the victim game. It's easy to just be a victim when you can't face the reality and make compromises, and admit that you need help with something.

If Jari were to take his head out from his ass, and have a reality check, he'd realize that one won't make great music with 2000 tracks. And basically no one's rig can handle even 200 tracks all with 10 different plugins on all of them. Just load up 30 instances of Omnisphere and you're already tickling the limits. If you drown your computer in CPU intensive hell, it's 100% on you. If you think you're that one special snowflake, that genius that just gets production and music on a level that is incomprehensible to the rest of us mortals, then BOUNCE THE FUCKING TRACKS TO AUDIO. Render those 100 intensive effects tracks to 1 uncompressed audio file. BOOM - 100 tracks gone. If you still feel like making excuses, just go listen to Nolly's latest work. There went your excuses. There are definitely many very normal people topping you on the production side, and they don't store their farts in a jar, film videos in their underwear and believe their own excuses. They know that art is about making compromises and capturing a moment in Time (pun intended) and the more you try to polish everything to absolute perfection, the less you get done and ultimately, the vision gets lost.

Jari did a perfect album once with Wintersun 1. I just hope someone would force him in a room for a month with the likes of Nolly and some other proper dudes, and he'd probably churn out a couple more.


----------



## SamSam

He can add 1000 tracks if he wants. He's a decent singer, but nowhere near what could be described as epic. Thus no matter what he does, he will always be held back by the physical limitations he has. 

He should stick to guitar, because he's a awesome player. But his vocals are nowhere near the level of the top tier vocalists.


----------



## Metropolis

j3ps3 said:


> Wow, such a surprise that you completely disregarded the point, which was
> 
> 
> 
> My question was, how do you exactly know that? Me saying "I just read what Jari wrote" is not an argument for you, so I'm not gonna give you a pass on this one either.
> 
> Also, been working so had no time to respond, but not gonna act like you and just ignore the questions given to me, so:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just the first sentence already is bs. Granted, you need to be a stable name to do tours without new music and gather an audience. But still: your point was? If you need money and touring to make a record, we wouldn't have any music in this world we live in. Making music costs you absolutely _nothing_. Also saying that "making somebody more skilled than you work over your music is a lie" is a fucking laughable statement. The fuck, dude? Recording at home hasn't been around for that long.
> 
> And how come music is the only thing relating them? You asked for epic music that is hard on the computer. Are you saying that the music Hans Zimmer does doesn't count as such?
> 
> 
> 
> Others, who already know the genre better than I do, have already listed bands so not gonna comment on this. But don't you yourself find it hilarious that you're asking for as-epic-as-wintersun-bands from us in the way like there couldn't be one, and when asked, you can come up with multiple bands that you yourself approve as such?



So here you are moving a burden of proof for me, which is not my responsibility. It's just something that I've read during recent years. If you want to search it further, then do it by yourself and make your hopefully better conclusions in your own mind.

Making music costs equipment and time used in it. It varies how much, simple as that.

I listed some bands before which are equally "epic" in my opinion. But in the beginning this demand came from totally somewhere else with comparisons, band references and all that stuff for some reason.



Velokki said:


> I feel I could waste 3 hours writing a long ass post about this whole Wintersun farce, but summed up:
> -Jari seeks absolute perfection
> -Absolute perfection doesn't exist
> -The band has a lot of enthusiastic fans, on the borderline of a religion
> -Jari gets a lot of praise daily from the fans
> -Jari has many times lost almost all objectivity when it comes to production. Time 1 was one of the most horrible mixes I've ever heard. Forest Seasons was great though.
> -He's a total control freak - which isn't a bad thing. Many great creators share this trait.
> -He's high up on himself. Might be a slight personality disorder, too. He wants adoration and supremacy. Just read the Wintersun posts - it's always about me me me, and blaming the external circumistances (blaming Nuclear Blast, lack of CPU power or any other lack of means to achieve something). He really does play the victim game. It's easy to just be a victim when you can't face the reality and make compromises, and admit that you need help with something.
> 
> If Jari were to take his head out from his ass, and have a reality check, he'd realize that one won't make great music with 2000 tracks. And basically no one's rig can handle even 200 tracks all with 10 different plugins on all of them. Just load up 30 instances of Omnisphere and you're already tickling the limits. If you drown your computer in CPU intensive hell, it's 100% on you. If you think you're that one special snowflake, that genius that just gets production and music on a level that is incomprehensible to the rest of us mortals, then BOUNCE THE FUCKING TRACKS TO AUDIO. Render those 100 intensive effects tracks to 1 uncompressed audio file. BOOM - 100 tracks gone. If you still feel like making excuses, just go listen to Nolly's latest work. There went your excuses. There are definitely many very normal people topping you on the production side, and they don't store their farts in a jar, film videos in their underwear and believe their own excuses. They know that art is about making compromises and capturing a moment in Time (pun intended) and the more you try to polish everything to absolute perfection, the less you get done and ultimately, the vision gets lost.
> 
> Jari did a perfect album once with Wintersun 1. I just hope someone would force him in a room for a month with the likes of Nolly and some other proper dudes, and he'd probably churn out a couple more.



Time I's mix is fine, little bit too packed to the max, nothing worse than that. He's not searching for perfection and knows that it doesn't exist.

Personality disorder? It's a one man project with a live band around. Of course it's about him writing music. Time I was more about everyone contributing with playing their parts at least.


----------



## j3ps3

Metropolis said:


> So here you are moving a burden of proof for me, which is not my responsibility.



Why you can do that but I can't?



Metropolis said:


> Making music costs equipment and time used in it. It varies how much, simple as that.



Yeah, because a regular person with little to no money wouldn't be able to make music... Oh wait, there's this thing called the blues, just to name one.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Metropolis said:


> Time I's mix is fine, little bit too packed to the max, nothing worse than that. He's not searching for perfection and knows that it doesn't exist.


How do you know? You're not sitting there looking over his shoulder.


----------



## Metropolis

GunpointMetal said:


> How do you know? You're not sitting there looking over his shoulder.



I'm here listening to best possible quality .wav files and reading his finnish interviews.


----------



## j3ps3

Metropolis said:


> I'm here listening to best possible quality .wav files and reading his finnish interviews.



And what makes you such an expert on a "good mix"? "I like it so it's objectively the best!"


----------



## Metropolis

j3ps3 said:


> And what makes you such an expert on a "good mix"? "I like it so it's objectively the best!"



It can be about so many things and depends on a context. I'm not a professional sound engineer but still have ears for tone and working on my own music for example. But maybe it doesn't really belong here as a subject. Make comparisons, use your ears, it's not that hard to know what's happening there. Arranging all that on the other hand is difficult. I've been listening heavier music around 17-18 years, which isn't that much but it gives some standpoint. It's all subjective, even pro's make shitty mixes in terms of metal music these days.


----------



## j3ps3

j3ps3 said:


> Why you can do that but I can't?



Gonna repeat this one.

Also, people listen to music from the 60s for years and years and claim that the way production is done nowadays is shit. What makes them more wrong than you? They have even more that experience you claim to have, yet I can guarantee you that most of them would say that Wintersun sounds just the same as every other band today. You were also talking about objectively good, and hard on computer mix. I gave you Hans Zimmer as an example but you disregarded him by saying "So here you are moving a burden of proof for me, which is not my responsibility."

I'm also starting to think you're just trolling.


----------



## Vyn

That was a wild few pages to catch up on...

If Wintersun releases new material: I'll probably buy it because I like their stuff.

If Wintersun doesn't release new material: I've saved money and I still have the old material to listen to.

As for what Jari does in the meantime, I couldn't give a fuck. I'd rather spend time trying to learn how to play his songs than comment on his inability to regularly release material.


----------



## BlackSG91

Vyn said:


> That was a wild few pages to catch up on...
> 
> If Wintersun releases new material: I'll probably buy it because I like their stuff.
> 
> If Wintersun doesn't release new material: I've saved money and I still have the old material to listen to.
> 
> As for what Jari does in the meantime, I couldn't give a fuck. I'd rather spend time trying to learn how to play his songs than comment on his inability to regularly release material.



Now that's what I want to hear. You are right...Jari is amazing on guitar and songwriting but I don't care if it take him another 20 years to release another album. Just enjoy what he has released so far. I'm not holding my breath on his next release...but if he does I'm all for it.


;>)/


----------



## TedEH

I don't have any words for the places this thread has gone.


----------



## Metropolis

TedEH said:


> I don't have any words for the places this thread has gone.



People asking same things over and over again like they don't have any own thoughts. Comparing apples and oranges in never ending cycle. Lost my interest already.


----------



## TedEH

Metropolis said:


> People asking same things over and over again like they don't have any own thoughts.


The post I was referring to has been since deleted. Some less than friendly remarks were contributed to the conversation.


----------



## Kovah

Metropolis said:


> People asking same things over and over again like they don't have any own thoughts. Comparing apples and oranges in never ending cycle. Lost my interest already.



Yet you're still replying to this thread several times a day.


----------



## Dayn

Metropolis said:


> This is like canadian Wintersun. Wait what, vocalist/guitar player even has finnish sounding name, "Mattias Sippola"



I just wanted to say that this is truly fan-fucking-tastic. It's very similar to Wintersun, but definitely isn't. It's heavily inspired, but it's not a rip-off and it's really well done. Goddamn is this good. Even the vocals are similar.


----------



## works0fheart

Metropolis said:


> People asking same things over and over again like they don't have any own thoughts. Comparing apples and oranges in never ending cycle. Lost my interest already.



Already?! But this thread is onlyyyyyy 51 pages long. 

Being that you're on almost every page of it, I'd say it held your interest and then some lol. 

And just in case you forgot, I'm still going to ask you the same question that I told you I would: Why are you so invested in defending this band?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Didn't know if I should make a new thread or necrobump this one since it seemed to be a catch-all Wintersun thread









WINTERSUN Parts Ways With Guitarist Of Five Years


Asim Searah is out.




metalinjection.net


----------



## TedEH

When I saw the news, this thread was the first thing I thought of, so I think you did the right thing.


----------



## GunpointMetal

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Didn't know if I should make a new thread or necrobump this one since it seemed to be a catch-all Wintersun thread
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WINTERSUN Parts Ways With Guitarist Of Five Years
> 
> 
> Asim Searah is out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> metalinjection.net


Guitarist: Hey man, maybe we should just make the album.
Jari: Get out.


----------



## Mathemagician

Bro at this point you have to know that working with Jari means you do not get a vote.


----------



## ThomasUV777

Mathemagician said:


> Bro at this point you have to know that working with Jari means you do not get a vote.


Or a new album


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Second time he’s gotten the boot from a band but worded a bit nicer than Kiuas did.

Have Wintersun played live this year? I haven’t kept up with them in a few years.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Deciding the placement of the 2nd hot tub must have been a *heated *conversation.


----------



## brector

Jonathan20022 said:


> Deciding the placement of the 2nd hot tub must have been a *heated *conversation.


I think they prefer the saunas over there lol


----------



## neurosis

I guess we still have Teemu waiting to hear from the boss, then? Cool band with insane musicianship. Thanks for the bump... I have a sudden craving to listen to battle Against now


----------



## Wildebeest

We all saw this coming sauna or later. I lost faith in this band when the best guitar player in it decided to stop playing guitar, so he can focus on vocals that are not complex at all. The first album and first two Ensiferum albums will always be killer.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Wildebeest said:


> I lost faith in this band when the best guitar player in it decided to stop playing guitar,


I will never get why he did that at all.
...actually I think I know why, but still.


----------



## DiezelMonster

I love this thread as well, you guys are all so entertaining.


----------



## Kolaniak

Wildebeest said:


> We all saw this coming sauna or later. I lost faith in this band when the best guitar player in it decided to stop playing guitar, so he can focus on vocals that are not complex at all. The first album and first two Ensiferum albums will always be killer.



The best guitar player in Wintersun is Teemu.


----------



## Mathemagician

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I will never get why he did that at all.
> ...actually I think I know why, but still.



I don’t and would LOVE to hear why even if it’s just conspiracy theories. I just cannot figure out why and assumed it was just more fun to be “the singer” than have to play an instrument as well? 



Kolaniak said:


> The best guitar player in Wintersun is Teemu.


Shhhh, you’re gonna get him fired.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Mathemagician said:


> I don’t and would LOVE to hear why even if it’s just conspiracy theories. I just cannot figure out why and assumed it was just more fun to be “the singer” than have to play an instrument as well?


No it's no crazy conspiracy theory, jesus.  I was thinking it was a case of frontman syndrome. But Jari's a bit... uh... unorthodox with stuff so I'm sure he had some actual reasons he wanted to switch.


----------



## works0fheart

GunpointMetal said:


> Guitarist: Hey man, maybe we should just make the album.
> Jari: Get out.



It's funny because it's probably pretty accurate. Such a waste of talent. These guys went from a great band to little more than a couple guys splitting patreon profits.


----------



## Mathemagician

I just want to reiterate that Time still slaps. And that is why to me this is all so funny. I just cannot fathom what could be keeping musicians of that caliber from producing. Other than “I don’t wanna” which - fair enough. Makes for great popcorn content.


----------



## Jarmake

Kolaniak said:


> The best guitar player in Wintersun is Teemu.



Yes, by far the best one. He's a freaking beast, I just hope Jari would give him more solos to play.


----------



## Metropolis

Teemu is an insane player, his picking hand is something everyone should take some notes. Jari is a beast too, but Teemu is just a notch on another level with sheer technique and efficiency in my opinion.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

When Teemu joined Wintersun Jari said he found a player even better than he was. Think he was 19 when he joined? He was 16 when he joined Imperanon. Insane player. Jari beats him on composition though(or at least he used to). Some of those solos on Wintersun’s debut are the best crafted solos in guitar music imo. Seeing the live videos I agree with Jari’s choice, he can 100% concentrate on vocals and Temmu can shred those solos even better then Jari could.

Temmu has a side project called Smackbound, female fronted rock/metal but I don’t think he’s doing anything else bar that and Wintersun. He used to have a project called Speed Piano force or something that was insane.


----------



## Dr. Caligari

Lorcan Ward said:


> Some of those solos on Wintersun’s debut are the best crafted solos in guitar music imo.



Which are your favorites?

People often talk about the Winter Madness solo and I can agree that one is good.


----------



## works0fheart

Always thought these solos were pretty nuts. Easily the first thing that comes to mind when I think of crazy Wintersun leads.


----------



## pahulkster

Love how he rips the entire song and flubs the last note


----------



## NoodleFace

Color me surprised

As to why it takes musicians of this caliber this long to release something, look back into Time 2. Jari ran out of nuclear blast money and blamed them all for it. He then crowdfunded a studio with sauna room (lol)

I remember a big part of it was him saying he needed a computer farm (???) To handle all the synth/score work he was trying to do. 

Simply put it's Jaris ego holding the band back.


----------



## Leviathus

I always guessed the pressure of having to live up to the reputation of the first album is what's kept Wintersun kinda dormant over the years. Can't wait to see what they come up with for the 20th anniversary of the s/t in 2024, maybe an exclusive listening party in the sauna with Jari and the guys for the highest tier collectors package?


----------



## NoodleFace

Btw I knew jari was a maniac when I complained on some Facebook post years ago about the sauna and he private messaged me telling me how important the sauna was. I truly wish I kept those messages.


----------



## Xaios

Time II is the new Time.


----------



## fantom

GunpointMetal said:


> Guitarist: Hey man, maybe we should just make the album.
> Jari: Get out.


Probably more like Jari wanted to make another cringe-worthy crowd-sourcing video for Patreon backers to fund a cloud DAW so he could mix 20 minutes worth of music... and the dude couldn't do it with a clear conscious.


----------



## p0ke

NoodleFace said:


> Btw I knew jari was a maniac when I complained on some Facebook post years ago about the sauna and he private messaged me telling me how important the sauna was. I truly wish I kept those messages.


You know, that's not actually a Jari-thing (apart from the way he responded of course) - over here literally every building has a sauna and having one included in a building isn't a major expense in any way. I guess he just noticed the backlash it caused abroad and decided to feed the flames for free publicity.


----------



## NoodleFace

p0ke said:


> You know, that's not actually a Jari-thing (apart from the way he responded of course) - over here literally every building has a sauna and having one included in a building isn't a major expense in any way. I guess he just noticed the backlash it caused abroad and decided to feed the flames for free publicity.


Yeah I found that out later. I didn't realize it wasnt a luxury thing like it is in the US


----------



## Neon_Knight_

NoodleFace said:


> Yeah I found that out later. I didn't realize it wasnt a luxury thing like it is in the US


Apparently making physical copies of an album available to paying customers is a luxury though.


----------



## Wildebeest

Kolaniak said:


> The best guitar player in Wintersun is Teemu.


Now he is, for sure. But he wasn't always. Either way I'd rather see Jari play his own solos.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Dr. Caligari said:


> Which are your favorites?
> 
> People often talk about the Winter Madness solo and I can agree that one is good.



Winter Madness is incredible. There are so many flavours, so much decoration, the speed bursts Jari does within a bar catch your ear so much more than a straight shred section. The way it constantly peaks and drops. Breaking it down its one solo initial that reaches it peaks, then he shouts "hey" and it keeps going into a sweep section, then tapping, then sweeping, then builds up to the neo-classical Yngwie section then drops into the single guitar neo-classical part with the synths, then peaks with all the shredding for the last part before going right back into the song. 

Death and the Healing is another masterfully done solo. So much unique phrasing and the way it peaks and drops before the intense final section that has equal shred and vocal guitar parts.

I haven't listened to these tracks in a long time. Mad they were released in 2004 but wrote in 1996 and 2002. We still only have half the follow up album and an EP.


----------



## gunch

Ok:

1. I really really hate melodeath (except for Arsis and AtG) and power metal
2. But somehow Wintersun's s/t fucking whips ass
3. Are there albums like it?


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Aether Realm are heavily influenced by Wintersun


----------



## Xaios

gunch said:


> 1. I really really hate melodeath (except for Arsis and AtG) and power metal


If thrashier melodeath does it for you, you might like "Layers of Lies" by Darkane, maybe?

EDIT: Also Soilwork's "The Chainheart Machine".


----------



## Leviathus

Those old Ensiferum albums with Jari are kinda in the same vein, little more folky tho.


----------



## nickgray

On a related note, the 2001 build of Duke Nukem Forever got leaked.


----------



## Dayn

gunch said:


> Ok:
> 
> 1. I really really hate melodeath (except for Arsis and AtG) and power metal
> 2. But somehow Wintersun's s/t fucking whips ass
> 3. Are there albums like it?


If you're looking for more in the vein of Time and The Forest Seasons, then Atavistia's 'The Winter Way' is basically another Wintersun album. It's not like the self-titled, though.


----------



## rokket2005

gunch said:


> Ok:
> 
> 1. I really really hate melodeath (except for Arsis and AtG) and power metal
> 2. But somehow Wintersun's s/t fucking whips ass
> 3. Are there albums like it?





Equilibrium's Sagas is a great album. I like it more than anything Wintersun has done.



Maybe other Folk metal stuff like Finntroll. Jaktens Tid and Nattfodd are great albums.


----------



## works0fheart

rokket2005 said:


> Equilibrium's Sagas is a great album. I like it more than anything Wintersun has done.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe other Folk metal stuff like Finntroll. Jaktens Tid and Nattfodd are great albums.




This was the first band I thought of as well. That song, "Mana" off of that album is pretty incredible.


----------



## fantom

gunch said:


> Ok:
> 
> 1. I really really hate melodeath (except for Arsis and AtG) and power metal
> 2. But somehow Wintersun's s/t fucking whips ass
> 3. Are there albums like it?



Brymir's "Slayer of Gods" is a must listen for a Wintersun fix. IIRC they started off as a Wintersun cover band. I also really like "Wings of Fire", but sounds less like Wintersun.



If you want to reimagine Wintersun as a Samurai band, listen to Whispered's "Metsutan". This thread makes me wish they jokingly called it "Whispered Met Sauna".



As others said, Ensiferum. My opinion of them, even with Jari, is meh. I'd rather listen to Mithotyn or any of the other 4000 folk metal bands.


----------



## gunch

I guess I should elaborate, I usually dislike melodeath and powermetal for the cheese but in Wntersun's s/t case the speed and technicality of the riffing and solos outweighs the cheese so it's more palatable to me. I tried Time I and The Forest Seasons and they didn't grab me as much...


----------



## Xaios

gunch said:


> I guess I should elaborate, I usually dislike melodeath and powermetal for the cheese but in Wntersun's s/t case the speed and technicality of the riffing and solos outweighs the cheese so it's more palatable to me. I tried Time I and The Forest Seasons and they didn't grab me as much...


Try these on for size.


----------



## Acme

Did eveyone see the following update on Facebook? Jari is out of his mind, that's for sure.
"ALBUMS UPDATE
Album 1 60% done (currently working on)
Album 2 60% done
Album 3 60% done
Album 4 20% done
TIME II 90 % done"


----------



## Neon_Knight_

Acme said:


> Did eveyone see the following update on Facebook? Jari is out of his mind, that's for sure.
> "ALBUMS UPDATE
> Album 1 60% done (currently working on)
> Album 2 60% done
> Album 3 60% done
> Album 4 20% done
> TIME II 90 % done"


I thought Time II was almost done several years ago, but he wanted to continue playing around with drum track sounds to perfect it. He must have found something else he's unhappy with (or started from scratch in true Axl Rose style) if it's now only 90% complete. 

What new equipment does he need crowd funded now (other than a time machine)?


----------



## Xaios

Maybe Wintersun should try recording in a nuclear submarine?


----------



## TedEH

I'm excited for the 10 year anniversary of Time II being almost done.


----------



## Dr. Caligari

Seems like it would make more sense to focus on one thing, get that done and then move on to the next.


----------



## works0fheart

Listen guys, you just don't understand how hard it is to record an album like Time II. No one has ever recorded anything so complicated, even full orchestras. A half a million dollar fund raiser wasn't enough. A full studio with sauna wasn't enough. Wintersun needs support from Microsoft to develop an OS powerful enough to handle the production. I heard they're already making plans for a second fundraiser to buy a skyscraper with each floor being dedicated to a different instrument of the mix.


----------



## Drew

TedEH said:


> I'm excited for the 10 year anniversary of Time II being almost done.


Makes me feel better about how my own followup is coming along.


----------



## fantom

Xaios said:


> Maybe Wintersun should try recording in a nuclear submarine?


I'm sure the computer they need to mix Time II needs more power than a nuclear reactor can produce.



TedEH said:


> I'm excited for the 10 year anniversary of Time II being almost done.



When they finally release it, I bet they will crowdfound a documentary about the whole debacle called "About Time".


----------



## Xaios

works0fheart said:


> I heard they're already making plans for a second fundraiser to buy a skyscraper with each floor being dedicated to a different instrument of the mix.


The only way for Jari to get the mixing isolation he's looking for is to literally record...


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Xaios said:


> The only way for Jari to get the mixing isolation he's looking for is to literally record...
> 
> View attachment 107849


It IS the one place that hasn't been corrupted by capitalism.


----------



## wheresthefbomb

Xaios said:


> The only way for Jari to get the mixing isolation he's looking for is to literally record...
> 
> View attachment 107849


----------



## Xaios

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> It IS the one place that hasn't been corrupted by capitalism.


Dude, have you seen how much satellite debris that the western capitalist pigs have left in orbit? Premier Cherdenko is _not_ amused!


----------



## nightflameauto

Every time I feel slightly bad about how long it takes me to finish something, I visit this thread for a reminder that it could be worse.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Acme said:


> Did eveyone see the following update on Facebook? Jari is out of his mind, that's for sure.
> "ALBUMS UPDATE
> Album 1 60% done (currently working on)
> Album 2 60% done
> Album 3 60% done
> Album 4 20% done
> TIME II 90 % done"



Album booklets wrote by George RR Martin


----------



## ElRay

Drew said:


> Makes me feel better about how my own followup is coming along.


Wait, your album finally came out? Does that mean Chris is also dating your sister?


----------



## ElRay

fantom said:


> I'm sure the computer they need to mix Time II needs more power than a nuclear reactor can produce.


There is not a computer yet built that can mix the album, but there is one who can. A computer that is to come after the Apple Studio M1 Ultra, one that I will design. A computer to calculate the Ultimate Mix, one of such infinite complexity that life itself will form part of its operational matrix. And you yourselves shall take on new more primitive forms and go down into the computer to navigate its ten million year program. I shall design this computer for you. And it shall be called...


----------



## Xaios

ElRay said:


> There is not a computer yet built that can mix the album, but there is one who can. A computer that is to come after the Apple Studio M1 Ultra, one that I will design. A computer to calculate the Ultimate Mix, one of such infinite complexity that life itself will form part of its operational matrix. And you yourselves shall take on new more primitive forms and go down into the computer to navigate its ten million year program. I shall design this computer for you. And it shall be called...


----------



## ElRay

Xaios said:


> View attachment 107912


Mada-Who-Ha?


----------



## Drew

ElRay said:


> Wait, your album finally came out? Does that mean Chris is also dating your sister?


 No, he's married. To someone who isn't my sister.  

But yeah, back in like 2015 or some time ago long enouigh that it's getting a little embarrassing that I haven't released another.


----------



## Andromalia

Xaios said:


> Time II is the new Time.


It's time II get out.


----------



## Xaios

Andromalia said:


> It's time II get out.


Timelander II: The Not-So-Quickening.


----------



## coreysMonster

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> It IS the one place that hasn't been corrupted by capitalism.


SHPAAAYCE-H!


----------



## Gio18

Hey guys asim left.


----------



## ArtDecade

Gio18 said:


> Hey guys asim left.



I'll never forget his valuable contributions to the Wintersun discography.


----------



## Gio18

Wow good one


----------



## Jarmake

ArtDecade said:


> I'll never forget his valuable contributions to the Wintersun discography.



Remember that one album where Jari played some fuzzy sounding guitars and sang on it, then made everything else with midi-instruments? It's Asim's legacy now. Time well spent. (pun not intended)


----------



## works0fheart

This has been a good thread. I no longer open it for actual Wintersun news, there's just some funny shit in here each time I open it.


----------



## MFB

I know nothing about that mean, but I hope he takes this time off to work on that thing he calls a mustache.


----------



## Metropolis

Remember how Jari wrote and recorded the debut album with Kai, and no one of the current members were still not participating anything to the band, phew. It sure wasn't a "real" band...


----------



## Gio18

works0fheart said:


> This has been a good thread. I no longer open it for actual Wintersun news, there's just some funny shit in here each time I open it.


I dont know about that but, i guess asim got tired of The bullshit as well


----------



## ArtDecade

Gio18 said:


> Wow good one



I know.


----------



## Jarmake

Metropolis said:


> Remember how Jari wrote and recorded the debut album with Kai, and no one of the current members were still not participating anything to the band, phew. It sure wasn't a "real" band...


Remember how he didn't dance around the questions about the rest of the band participating since there was only Jari and Kai at the time, remember? And when nobody questioned that at all, since it didn't matter because the album was great and there was no other members in the band? And he actually put out an album with real instruments? How bass & drums were real instruments too?

I surely do remember that. That was a great time.

Now there seems to be two members again, but this time it's Jari & Teemu. And I wonder why that is? Why did the other members leave the band? Hmm, gee... I dunno!

You surely seem to enjoy your own little bubble with Jari, that's for sure. So go on, defend Jari all you want in here or in mnet, but it doesn't change the fact that the "mastermind" can't seem to get anything done. Sure, he has 6 records on the table right now. But hey, so do I! I've got 12 records coming up.

1: A space opera, 1% done
2: A super epic space pirate drinking songs album, 2% done
3: A record about a mighty chicken, that wanted to rule the world, 5% done
4: A record that I started doing when I was 4 and still haven't gotten around completing it, 59% done
5-12: records that paint a vivid picture of my bowel movements through the ages and spaces and toilets, with excruciating details about the concistency and the smells. 99% done, but this is going to be my magnum opus, which I will release last. Between every record there is going to be 2 - 32 years, depends on my mood and if there's birds singing outside too loudly.



Oh hey guys, would you like to donate some money? I'll surely put out some records, IF I get 1 million euros. If not, maybe you're not real fans.


Guys?


----------



## Metropolis

Jarmake said:


> Remember how he didn't dance around the questions about the rest of the band participating since there was only Jari and Kai at the time, remember? And when nobody questioned that at all, since it didn't matter because the album was great and there was no other members in the band? And he actually put out an album with real instruments? How bass & drums were real instruments too?
> 
> I surely do remember that. That was a great time.
> 
> Now there seems to be two members again, but this time it's Jari & Teemu. And I wonder why that is? Why did the other members leave the band? Hmm, gee... I dunno!
> 
> You surely seem to enjoy your own little bubble with Jari, that's for sure. So go on, defend Jari all you want in here or in mnet, but it doesn't change the fact that the "mastermind" can't seem to get anything done. Sure, he has 6 records on the table right now. But hey, so do I! I've got 12 records coming up.
> 
> 1: A space opera, 1% done
> 2: A super epic space pirate drinking songs album, 2% done
> 3: A record about a mighty chicken, that wanted to rule the world, 5% done
> 4: A record that I started doing when I was 4 and still haven't gotten around completing it, 59% done
> 5-12: records that paint a vivid picture of my bowel movements through the ages and spaces and toilets, with excruciating details about the concistency and the smells. 99% done, but this is going to be my magnum opus, which I will release last. Between every record there is going to be 2 - 32 years, depends on my mood and if there's birds singing outside too loudly.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh hey guys, would you like to donate some money? I'll surely put out some records, IF I get 1 million euros. If not, maybe you're not real fans.
> 
> 
> Guys?



Jukka and Kai are still official members, and none of those statements about album progress aren't true, so... it's same old entitled crap as always from the negative ones. I really stopped caring about schedules after Time I was released, it takes what it takes.


----------



## works0fheart

Metropolis said:


> Jukka and Kai are still official members, and none of those statements about album progress aren't true, so... it's same old entitled crap as always from the negative ones. I really stopped caring about schedules after Time I was released, it takes what it takes.



I seem to recall these same arguments from you years ago and literally nothing has been released or even teased in that time. And again I'll point out to you it's not quite entitled when people have donated half a million dollars to this man so he can finish this album (5 years ago by the way). No shit they expect some results after 18 years of being teased with it. 

I also seem to recall years ago when these same arguments were brought up you were presented with these same facts and you conveniently ignored them then too. I don't know if you're just out of touch with reality, a little acoustic, or extremely naive but there's definitely something going on there if 99% of people can grasp that the situation is clearly bullshit but you can't seem to accept that.


----------



## Metropolis

works0fheart said:


> I seem to recall these same arguments from you years ago and literally nothing has been released or even teased in that time. And again I'll point out to you it's not quite entitled when people have donated half a million dollars to this man so he can finish this album (5 years ago by the way). No shit they expect some results after 18 years of being teased with it.
> 
> I also seem to recall years ago when these same arguments were brought up you were presented with these same facts and you conveniently ignored them then too. I don't know if you're just out of touch with reality, a little acoustic, or extremely naive but there's definitely something going on there if 99% of people can grasp that the situation is clearly bullshit but you can't seem to accept that.



Jari has already informed about multiple albums being in the making, but lot of people act like it's nothing or they're not in the making. I rather believe the man who's making the music than random people yelling in the social media about their knowledge of the situation here. Wintersun's album release cycle is slow, but releasing an album every 5-7 years is nothing unheard of. Now in the different times is the same bullshit claiming relevant? To me it's just not the case if you take all these multiple standpoints about progress in count. There's nothing else to be accepted than there is no new Wintersun album in this year, or maybe not in the next either. I'm just way too patient. If Wintersun would quit, of course I would be pissed off as hell and bury my hopes then. Is there really something to grasp or just bunch of assumptions?

And the crowdfunding part... after taxes and salaries you have to raise and pay to other band members after touring couple of years, how much has left of it. Though 464k€ is quite a lot. There will be another crowdfunding for shure.

Btw. changed my avatar to Wintersun logo because of this thread, because just have fun with it.


----------



## TedEH

I'm so excited to see old arguments come back and nobody learn anything.


----------



## works0fheart

TedEH said:


> I'm so excited to see old arguments come back and nobody learn anything.



And even better, no releases by Wintersun in that time either. Weird.


----------



## Gio18

TedEH said:


> I'm so excited to see old arguments come back and nobody learn anything.


Like?


----------



## MFB

Gio18 said:


> Like?



Like whether or not Jari will ever actually put out an album or just keep duping people out of their money.

Dude is the _Star Citizen_ of musicians


----------



## p0ke

Yeah well, at least there's no point in expecting an album at any particular time... I have high expectations regarding the music itself, but there's no point in even trying to guess when anything will come out. I'm pretty sure he will actually release the stuff at some point though.

Regarding the members-situation, my guess is that Asim wanted to be a full member and Jari only wanted him as a live session dude but not in the studio (and in the album credits).


----------



## TedEH

Gio18 said:


> Like?


This is page 55 of a thread started 8 years ago. There's PLENTY of material to answer that question for yourself. Good luck.


----------



## MrWulf

The fact that this page had someone changed their pfp into Wintersun's W and still defending Jari being a clown is lol.


----------



## brector

Gio18 said:


> Like?


Good morning Jari!


----------



## nightflameauto

works0fheart said:


> I don't know if you're just out of touch with reality, *a little acoustic*, or extremely naive but there's definitely something going on there if 99% of people can grasp that the situation is clearly bullshit but you can't seem to accept that.


Definitely a little acoustic. A little acoustic in a metal setting. Standing all alone in one of those stage-stands the rhythm guitarist uses for the one, tiny little pre-chorus before throwing the little acoustic at his tech and rocking out like God intended.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

nightflameauto said:


> Definitely a little acoustic. A little acoustic in a metal setting. Standing all alone in one of those stage-stands the rhythm guitarist uses for the one, tiny little pre-chorus before throwing the little acoustic at his tech and rocking out like God intended.



If "a little acoustic" isn't the next SSO meme I'm going to be legitimately disappointed in y'all.


----------



## Gio18

brector said:


> Good morning Jari!


Oh you're one of the slow ones i see


----------



## Gio18

TedEH said:


> This is page 55 of a thread started 8 years ago. There's PLENTY of material to answer that question for yourself. Good luck.



Good luck? I just wanted a condensed answer bruh


----------



## TedEH

Gio18 said:


> Good luck? I just wanted a condensed answer bruh


You're in luck! Since nothing in the Wintersun situation ever changes, there's a condensed version of the whole thread on just about every page.


----------



## Gio18

TedEH said:


> You're in luck! Since nothing in the Wintersun situation ever changes, there's a condensed version of the whole thread on just about every page.


I know whats going on but i wanted to hear what YOU had to say.


----------



## TedEH

Since you asked so adamantly for my take in particular:
- Wintersun put out some pretty good material a long time ago.
- Maybe it was their popularity that went to his head or something, but Jari went full-on diva mode.
- There was supposed to be a follow-up album that was never properly delivered.
- Label money was squandered, poor decisions were made, bad excuses were given
- A crowdfunding campaign that insisted that no genius can work without his own home studio
- A bunch of arguing about saunas
- It was, several times, "totally almost done", then we got a half-album for some reason
- The second half never came
- But a bunch of mediocre not-the-promised-material arrived instead
- A bunch of people argued that we just don't understand Jari's genius
- A bunch of arguing about whether music is better because of the number of tracks used
- A bunch of arguing about whether a true genius would ever accept outside help
- Every couple of years, Wintersun makes some post somewhere, this thread gets revived, we have the same arguments, nobody changes their minds.
- The local theory is that several members in the thread are secretly Jari. (This is VERY serious. NO JOKES. The internet does not joke about these things.)

As a result, I can't take Wintersun or anything Jari does seriously anymore.


----------



## Metropolis

TedEH said:


> Since you asked so adamantly for my take in particular:
> - Wintersun put out some pretty good material a long time ago.
> - Maybe it was their popularity that went to his head or something, but Jari went full-on diva mode.
> - There was supposed to be a follow-up album that was never properly delivered.
> - Label money was squandered, poor decisions were made, bad excuses were given
> - A crowdfunding campaign that insisted that no genius can work without his own home studio
> - A bunch of arguing about saunas
> - It was, several times, "totally almost done", then we got a half-album for some reason
> - The second half never came
> - But a bunch of mediocre not-the-promised-material arrived instead
> - A bunch of people argued that we just don't understand Jari's genius
> - A bunch of arguing about whether music is better because of the number of tracks used
> - A bunch of arguing about whether a true genius would ever accept outside help
> - Every couple of years, Wintersun makes some post somewhere, this thread gets revived, we have the same arguments, nobody changes their minds.
> - The local theory is that several members in the thread are secretly Jari. (This is VERY serious. NO JOKES. The internet does not joke about these things.)
> 
> As a result, I can't take Wintersun or anything Jari does seriously anymore.


Plan to build an own studio was one of his future investments, and Jari is having his "semi studio" now built in his apartment. The final stage of it would be own property for the purpose. I don't know about diva either, he's actually quite private person. A total perfectionist too, which still doesn't make him seem like a diva.

And overall it doesn't mean that if the followup didn't came shortly after Time I, it will never come. No one were talking about label money either. Money earned from the crowdfunding is mostly his companys money.

This was Jari's latest update about album progress. Which probably includes mixing and mastering too.

ALBUMS UPDATE
Album 1 60% done (currently working on)
Album 2 60% done
Album 3 60% done
Album 4 20% done
TIME II 90 % done

The magical right recepe for making music is just subjective, and there is no right or wrong. I would wanted to hear real drums and bass, but whatever. 

Accepting totally opposite things of what is going on might be easier to someone. Living in the past is not my thing, but for many others it shure is.

For now;

- Following album for Time I is almost done
- Four other albums in the making
- Money earned from the crowdfunding hopefully went where it was meant to
- You can always learn from the poor decisions and do differently in future
- No one here plays in the Wintersun, except Teemu has an account here (uses it once in a blue moon)


----------



## mmr007

8 year old thread about a band Ive never heard of and I’m hooked. Bravo SSO. Bravo.


----------



## TedEH

Metropolis said:


> TIME II 90 % done


You're preaching to the wrong guy. I stopped caring literally years ago.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Bold choice to record your discography in parallel.


----------



## p0ke

Metropolis said:


> Plan to build an own studio was one of his future investments, and Jari is having his "semi studio" now built in his apartment. The final stage of it would be own property for the purpose.



Did I miss something or didn't he already buy a house to build the studio in? And if not, what happened to the crowdfunding money? It would've been enough to buy pretty much the whole neighborhood I live in... 

I'm fine with stuff taking time, but his endless excuses are just destroying whatever little credibility he has left...


----------



## mehegama

I was really wondering what happened to that half a million dollars? I don't think any studio, equipment or even land (!?!?!?!?!) was bought. Does anyone know?


----------



## Dr. Caligari

If that last 10% of Time II is so hard to get done, can it really be called 10%? 

60+60+60+20=200%

He can do that 200% but not the 10% that would actually make sense to do?

It's a bit weird in terms of numbers. I also think he put himself in a tricky situation because at this point Time II would have to be pretty crazy good in order to not disappoint everybody.


----------



## mehegama

Dr. Caligari said:


> If that last 10% of Time II is so hard to get done, can it really be called 10%?
> 
> 60+60+60+20=200%
> 
> He can do that 200% but not the 10% that would actually make sense to do?
> 
> It's a bit weird in terms of numbers. I also think he put himself in a tricky situation because at this point Time II would have to be pretty crazy good in order to not disappoint everybody.


Do not overthink it, it is obvious Jari is making these numbers up as he goes. Time II was written like 10-12 year ago but he never finished because of "RAM issues" (Jari still thinks writing the same melody/or variation of it with 200 different instruments and using 200 different tracks, is a brilliant idea). I would really be interested to know what is this 10% consisted of.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Those are all percentages of how much of the material has composed in his head. There's no "genius" in working on 5 releases in parallel unless you actually release the material at the same time. He'll just keep popping up with random updates as long the neckbeards keep asking.


----------



## Xaios

TedEH said:


> - The local theory is that several members in the thread are secretly Jari. (This is VERY serious. NO JOKES. The internet does not joke about these things.)


Funny story. In the mid-2000s, I was a moderator on the forum for PureVolume.com (@wheresthefbomb was also around during those days). It was a general music forum and there was a metal section, but it certainly wasn't the most popular subforum (and for some bizarre reason it was also grouped together with Hardcore). Times being what they were, the emo forum was far and away the biggest, but that's neither here nor there. Long story short, there was one guy that a fair number of people actually thought was Jari Maenpaa. I'm not even joking. His username was "milktank" and his avatar was the Pokemon "Miltank". He was one of the few other self-proclaimed metalheads on that forum, and his professed listening definitely gave him cred in that regard. Bear in mind, this was also back in like... 2005-06, so their self-titled was still fairly recent. I honestly have no idea where the notion came from, but it was just one of those things that a lot of people who frequented the metal subforum seemed to be in on, that this milktank dude _maybe_ was actually Jari Maenpaa.


----------



## Metropolis

GunpointMetal said:


> Those are all percentages of how much of the material has composed in his head. There's no "genius" in working on 5 releases in parallel unless you actually release the material at the same time. He'll just keep popping up with random updates as long the neckbeards keep asking.



Perfectionist who Jari is has most likely full song ideas structured in a daw sessions which are stored in multiple places. Basically no one does it otherwise and says; "I have four full albums done by half and almost one done". It would be very illogical to understand it otherwise. Actually we talked about this with Jari in their Patreon forum like six months ago, the dude is recording and mixing new music all the time.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Metropolis said:


> Perfectionist who Jari is has most likely full song ideas structured in a daw sessions which are stored in multiple places. Basically no one does it otherwise and says; "I have four full albums done by half and almost one done". It would be very illogical to understand it otherwise. Actually we talked about this with Jari in their Patreon forum like six months ago, the dude is recording and mixing new music all the time.


Guess nobody will ever know for sure until (if) more music is released.


----------



## j3ps3

I don't think I've ever seen an adult simp as hard over something as I've seen in this thread.


----------



## Metropolis

j3ps3 said:


> I don't think I've ever seen an adult simp as hard over something as I've seen in this thread.


Watchout, we have a badass over here, who's definetly not going to simp anyone in any circumstances.

Seriously, these kind of responses are the most laughable.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

j3ps3 said:


> I don't think I've ever seen an adult simp as hard over something as I've seen in this thread.


Kpop and wrestling stans are worse.
But that's a fucking high bar to reach.


----------



## TedEH




----------



## j3ps3

Metropolis said:


> Watchout, we have a badass over here, who's definetly not going to simp anyone in any circumstances.
> 
> Seriously, these kind of responses are the most laughable.



Well, seriously talking, not in my adult life, no. The way you go up and about this just seems to be on an unhealthy level if you ask me. 
I also didn't respond to you nor did I name any names so you could've just ignored my comment.


----------



## ArtDecade

I've been waiting on a new Ratt record since 2010, so you newbies can just sit down and relax.


----------



## MFB

ArtDecade said:


> I've been waiting on a new Ratt record since 2010, so you newbies can just sit down and relax.



If it's any consolation, I'm not far behind hoping for a Vol. 2 of _Decompositions_ from Circle Takes the Square - Vol. 1 dropped way back in 2012 and then radio silence


----------



## wheresthefbomb

Xaios said:


> Funny story. In the mid-2000s, I was a moderator on the forum for PureVolume.com (@wheresthefbomb was also around during those days). It was a general music forum and there was a metal section, but it certainly wasn't the most popular subforum (and for some bizarre reason it was also grouped together with Hardcore). Times being what they were, the emo forum was far and away the biggest, but that's neither here nor there. Long story short, there was one guy that a fair number of people actually thought was Jari Maenpaa. I'm not even joking. His username was "milktank" and his avatar was the Pokemon "Miltank". He was one of the few other self-proclaimed metalheads on that forum, and his professed listening definitely gave him cred in that regard. Bear in mind, this was also back in like... 2005-06, so their self-titled was still fairly recent. I honestly have no idea where the notion came from, but it was just one of those things that a lot of people who frequented the metal subforum seemed to be in on, that this milktank dude _maybe_ was actually Jari Maenpaa.



I remember that user, but was not keen to this piece of lore, that is really funny.

I was introduced to a ton of rad bands through the doom/stoner/drone upload thread in that sub, and via curating the alternative sub's upload thread. It really was the wild west, there's no way you could have curated threads of pirated album uploads on a public forum now hahahaha.


----------



## Metropolis

j3ps3 said:


> Well, seriously talking, not in my adult life, no. The way you go up and about this just seems to be on an unhealthy level if you ask me.
> I also didn't respond to you nor did I name any names so you could've just ignored my comment.


That would have been way too uninteresting.


----------



## mmr007

I now….finally understand the attraction of reality shows and I want one. Based just on this thread and this topic. _

Anyway totally unrelated topic Richie Faulkner of Priest, whose heart exploded mid solo on stage stated that the most recent Priest album is 100% written and they are starting recording. Not giving this its own thread because it wont last 8 years but anyway…..please continue. Want something to read on my lunch break. 

In all seriousness for those who are a fan of Wintersun what are 2 or 3 songs you consider must hear material?


----------



## Captain Shoggoth

I blame everyone who prefers Time I to the self-titled. The endorsement of such a mediocre album by so many people with awful taste has catapulted Jari's ego beyond any point of return to this universe  


mmr007 said:


> I now….finally understand the attraction of reality shows and I want one. Based just on this thread and this topic. _
> 
> Anyway totally unrelated topic Richie Faulkner of Priest, whose heart exploded mid solo on stage stated that the most recent Priest album is 100% written and they are starting recording. Not giving this its own thread because it wont last 8 years but anyway…..please continue. Want something to read on my lunch break.
> 
> In all seriousness for those who are a fan of Wintersun what are 2 or 3 songs you consider must hear material?


 
The whole first album. Winter Madness & Beautiful Death if I had to pick two at gunpoint. Skip the rest


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands




----------



## nickgray

Captain Shoggoth said:


> I blame everyone who prefers Time I to the self-titled. The endorsement of such a mediocre album by so many people with awful taste



I don't even understand the hype about Wintersun in general


----------



## Metropolis

mmr007 said:


> I now….finally understand the attraction of reality shows and I want one. Based just on this thread and this topic. _
> 
> Anyway totally unrelated topic Richie Faulkner of Priest, whose heart exploded mid solo on stage stated that the most recent Priest album is 100% written and they are starting recording. Not giving this its own thread because it wont last 8 years but anyway…..please continue. Want something to read on my lunch break.
> 
> In all seriousness for those who are a fan of Wintersun what are 2 or 3 songs you consider must hear material?


From the first album Winter Madness, Battle Against Time and Death And The Healing might be my favorites. But if you take a single song from every album, then Winter Madness, Sons Of Winter And Stars... maybe Eternal Darkness. Just to have somekind of section as a whole.


----------



## Leviathus

Always fun when this thread flares up. I'd give a new Wintersun album a listen but they're never gonna get (and haven't gotten) close to the magic of the s/t.


----------



## MrWulf

Theres something to be said about everyone taking the piss of the situation and theres a sole one guy who is basically "nuh uh Wintersun is still doing well and making materials"

Could be just a giant troll job tho so in that case i'll praise your dedication to a worthless cause.


----------



## Metropolis

MrWulf said:


> Theres something to be said about everyone taking the piss of the situation and theres a sole one guy who is basically "nuh uh Wintersun is still doing well and making materials"
> 
> Could be just a giant troll job tho so in that case i'll praise your dedication to a worthless cause.


Must be a troll because my opinions are different than the loudest crowd of negative ones. Well, that's one way to look it. Doing well... they're obviously in the writing mode, especially when Asim left. That's been about two years, and I think Jari took advantage of the world situation just to write and record music.

Evidence about new music in the making level of writing, recording and production wise is very well stated here, and evidence about it not being true doesn't exist. Believing some rumors it being complete opposite is just plain stupidity.


----------



## /wrists

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> View attachment 108538


im dead


----------



## Metropolis

Okay, I will admit it. None of the albums aren't in the making, and crowdfunfing was just a scam. Jari probably drank the money, bought some gear, booze and hookers. Asim left because they can't tour for a long time and he wanted to make music like real bands do and record it. My theory is... Jari is just scamming everyone and not delivering the product he promised, which makes him total diva and an egoistic grifter. He's definetly not a genius who those money throwing simps are claiming him to be.

Are you happy now?


----------



## TedEH

Significantly, yes. That was great. Love to see some real character growth.


----------



## Dayn

Bloody hell, The Forest Seasons really was released in 2017. The gig in November I went to, despite feeling ill as hell, was still one of the best shows I've been to.

At least I got an album and a bunch of extras when I crowdsourced stuff.


----------



## drmosh

Metropolis said:


> and I think Jari took advantage of the world situation


youre right about that part


----------



## mmr007

Didnt too much care for the recommendations. Musical taste is subjective but yeah. Not my thing.


----------



## NoodleFace

If you guys think the one dude in this thread is weird, people paid $500k to a band that put one 1.25 albums worth of material. 

People. Are. Fucking. Insane.


----------



## mastapimp

mmr007 said:


> Didnt too much care for the recommendations. Musical taste is subjective but yeah. Not my thing.


Yes, the nerd bar is pretty high to get into this band. Not for your casual or traditional metal listener. Only people I know that are into Wintersun also routinely talk about fantasy/D&D and anime.


----------



## Metropolis

NoodleFace said:


> If you guys think the one dude in this thread is weird, people paid $500k to a band that put one 1.25 albums worth of material.
> 
> People. Are. Fucking. Insane.


Insane people, they all bought a product with an agreement and there is an intention to invest that money somewhere which is running Wintersun. Is it a part of somekind of a contract, no. And there was three albums, each about 40, 53 and 54 minutes in length.


----------



## NoodleFace

Metropolis said:


> Insane people, they all bought a product with an agreement and there is an intention to invest that money somewhere which is running Wintersun. Is it a part of somekind of a contract, no. And there was three albums, each about 40, 53 and 54 minutes in length.


Oh we are calling time 1 a full album now


----------



## Gio18

NoodleFace said:


> If you guys think the one dude in this thread is weird, people paid $500k to a band that put one 1.25 albums worth of material.
> 
> People. Are. Fucking. Insane.


And in all that time he has "built" a "semi studio" in his apartment (which doesnt makes sense since jari said the noise in said apartment caused him a lot a trouble some years ago)


----------



## KailM

I don’t understand why people insist Time is a half an album. Its runtime is a hair over 40 minutes. The trend for full albums in the last few years is in that ballpark.


----------



## NoodleFace

Mostly because jari told us it was the first half of the album


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I'm starting to think this Jari guy might not be entirely honest.


----------



## nickgray

Metropolis said:


> And there was three albums, each about 40, 53 and 54 minutes in length.



The rate is less than 8.67 minutes of music per year (8.23 MpY if you don't count one bonus track).

Tool made 50% more music than Wintersun during 18 years. Let that sink in


----------



## Lorcan Ward

KailM said:


> I don’t understand why people insist Time is a half an album. Its runtime is a hair over 40 minutes. The trend for full albums in the last few years is in that ballpark.



Jari at the time of release said it was only half an album since that was the only way they could release something, it only has 3 songs from Time with 3 instrumental tracks adding another 16 mins. If you don’t like the filler tracks which a lot of people don’t then it’s just 3 songs. It’s only after The Forest Seasons that he started changing his view and calling it a full album.

The Forest Seasons comes in at 54 mins but some people still called it an EP/half album because of the excessive repetition, in one song they play the same melody for 3 minutes which only bloats the song and pushes the run time. 

Wintersun have always had long songs, three 7 minute, one 8 min and one 10 min track on the first album but on the last two releases only one song isn’t 12 mins long. I feel every one of them could have 3-4 mins cut out to improve them which is where a producer or band input would step in. 

Winter shows Jari can still write incredible music. IMO if he took the best songs off all those future albums and put them into one concise album I’m sure it would be an amazing album.


----------



## mehegama

There have been rumours that he lost most of the crowdfunding money to cryptos. Does anyone know where did this come from and if there is any substance to it?


----------



## coreysMonster

I instantly believe that, no proof needed.


----------



## gunshow86de

There's something almost poetic about Jari becoming a crypto-bro and losing all the money.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

mehegama said:


> There have been rumours that he lost most of the crowdfunding money to cryptos. Does anyone know where did this come from and if there is any substance to it?


I can't think of a more perfect way to end this saga, if true.

EDIT: I decided to google it, and someone's source is the most reliable place on the internet... Youtube comments section.


----------



## works0fheart

Ironically I'm pretty sure there is a crypto called "Time".

Maybe Jari has been behind it the whole time and this is all just a rouse for him to get rich off of an alt coin. 

Time will tell.


----------



## Dayn

works0fheart said:


> Ironically I'm pretty sure there is a crypto called "Time".
> 
> Maybe Jari has been behind it the whole time and this is all just a rouse for him to get rich off of an alt coin.
> 
> Time will tell.


We'll only get half the story in a decade, though.


----------



## jruivo26

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I can't think of a more perfect way to end this saga, if true.
> 
> EDIT: I decided to google it, and someone's source is the most reliable place on the internet... Youtube comments section.


There's also a pretty "explanatory" comment somewhere on Jari's/Wintersun Facebook page about someone from a scandinavian studio (don't remember the country) that is well aware of Jari's latest shenanigans and he states that he invested hard on cryptos. Apparently he did indeed lose the rest of the crowdfunding money and is living of Patreon charity. 
As always, coming from "FaCeBoOk SoUrCeS", grains of salt are needed.


----------



## The Mirror

I mean half his band left to play with Nightwish.

Compared to Wintersun, Tuomas ~4 years for a record seems probably workaholic. 

At this point I wouldn't even be surprised if they announced Jari himself as their new male vocalist.


----------



## TheBloodstained

The Mirror said:


> At this point I wouldn't even be surprised if they announced Jari himself as their new male vocalist.


Jari is a great singer, so that could be a pretty epic combination  Just imagine Jari's scream/growls over the epic scores Tuomas writes. Then we just need Emppu to wake up and bring the riffage again 

In all seriousness though... it's sad to see what happened to Jari. Started listening to Wintersun around the release of Time I. I liked The Forrest Seasons and was really looking forward to more material. It kind of ruins my love for the music when the mastermind behind it turns out to be a bit of a tool...
Maybe he should just start over and commit himself to djent! He already proved that he is plenty capable to write that kind of stuff, and as much as I myself think that the whole djent movement is done, I would actually love to hear his take on a full lenght djent album! 

Naaah... I guess he should just get his shit together, get money, finish Time II... (and probably fuck some bitches?)


----------



## Nag

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'm starting to think this Jari guy might not be entirely honest.



Over the years, and I'm referring to stuff that was posted on their official website back in like 2008 or so, Jari has gone from "the album is basically done, only needs mixing" to "I have writer's blocks" to "we'll split the album in half" to "I need my own studio with a sauna" to "I can't do guitars live anymore", all the while saying "I have the whole album safely inside my laptop" and "I'm bored so I've been writing 3-4 albums worth of stuff".

Nahhhh, he's entirely honest. I can't _imagine_ what would make you think otherwise. 

Food for thought: why were they able to record, mix and release The Forest Seasons but not Time II?


----------



## mehegama

Nag said:


> Food for thought: why were they able to record, mix and release The Forest Seasons but not Time II?


It is self explanatory: Jari is just full of shit. Of course he can mix it, even though wanting to put together 2000 tracks playing variations of the same thing at the same time puts a question on his understanding of mixing and physics basically, he is just super lazy and dishonest.


----------



## jruivo26

I was just wondering... this is something that came to my mind while reading the Necrophagist thread: how hard would it be for someone to hack into Jari's personal laptop and leak the album?


----------



## j3ps3

jruivo26 said:


> I was just wondering... this is something that came to my mind while reading the Necrophagist thread: how hard would it be for someone to hack into Jari's personal laptop and leak the album?


Bold of you to assume that there actually is an album.

Also, inb4 Metropolis comes to tell us how Jari actually is a stellar fellow and not dishonest at all and we just need to have some patience and faith with him.


----------



## mehegama

j3ps3 said:


> Bold of you to assume that there actually is an album.
> 
> Also, inb4 Metropolis comes to tell us how Jari actually is a stellar fellow and not dishonest at all and we just need to have some patience and faith with him.


was always wondering, but i think metropolis being Jari himself is pretty highly probable.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Jari gambling all the crowdfunding money on crypto is both ridiculous and believable. It's over 5 years now since the crowdfund ended but no new music. Is the band even able to tour anymore?




jruivo26 said:


> I was just wondering... this is something that came to my mind while reading the Necrophagist thread: how hard would it be for someone to hack into Jari's personal laptop and leak the album?



Enjoy trying to export 1000 synth tracks.


----------



## mehegama

Lorcan Ward said:


> Jari gambling all the crowdfunding money on crypto is both ridiculous and believable. It's over 5 years now since the crowdfund ended but no new music. Is the band even able to tour anymore?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enjoy trying to export 1000 synth tracks.


not even that,.. Also where is the damn studio? he got half a mil and he was supposed to buy land and build. Has anyone seen a single brick? he still posts from his bedroom


----------



## jruivo26

Lorcan Ward said:


> Enjoy trying to export 1000 synth tracks.



With the power of friendship, the SSO community will slave all their pcs together creating a mega "hacking farm" that will surely handle the job

Or we could always start a crowdfunding for it


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

jruivo26 said:


> I was just wondering... this is something that came to my mind while reading the Necrophagist thread: how hard would it be for someone to hack into Jari's personal laptop and leak the album?


Does the Rockstar hacker take requests?


----------



## TedEH

Lorcan Ward said:


> 1000 synth tracks


If only there were several software solutions for this problem, some of which are even cheap or free.

In some ways, this is one of my favorite threads. My day is brightened whenever I see it's been bumped.


----------



## Metropolis

I've seen all these childish comments before, but definetly nothing about crowdfunding money invested into crypto currency


----------



## jruivo26

TedEH said:


> If only there were several software solutions for this problem, some of which are even cheap or free.
> 
> In some ways, this is one of my favorite threads. My day is brightened whenever I see it's been bumped.



Oh the tales of committing to sounds and rendering midi to audio...


----------



## Nag

TBH it would probably be faster (and cheaper  ) if we banded together and wrote, recorded and mixed Time II ourselves at this point.


----------



## TedEH

Even that level of commitment is a thing of the past: I assume most audio packages have some kind of sub-project capabilities at this point. Reaper can do it. Don't like how your 1000-synth thing sounds? Just crack open the sub-project and re-render it.

The idea of bouncing/rendering to one track has existed since, oh I dunno, around when people did their home recording on 4-track cassette machines maybe. There have always been ways to manage large projects, and you lose the benefit of "these techniques are new to me" when you've had since 2008 or whatever it was to figure it out.


----------



## cwhitey2

Metropolis said:


> I've seen all these childish comments before, but definetly nothing about crowdfunding money invested into crypto currency


He has spoken.


----------



## jruivo26

TedEH said:


> In some ways, this is one of my favorite threads. My day is brightened whenever I see it's been bumped.



Even better when the man himself comes here and posts


----------



## Metropolis

Very funny guys. Jari being in here as a user is very unlikely, I haven't seen him on any of the gear or music related forums ever. Except their own Patreon forum. Dude simply doesn't have... "time" for this shit.


----------



## TedEH

Metropolis said:


> Dude simply doesn't have... "time" for this shit.


Now you're getting it.
Embrace the headcanon.
Really embody the role.


----------



## works0fheart

TheBloodstained said:


> Jari is a great singer, so that could be a pretty epic combination  Just imagine Jari's scream/growls over the epic scores Tuomas writes.



Problem is he sounds insufferable to work with. He'd probably be battling it out with their current songwriter over ideas.



mehegama said:


> It is self explanatory: Jari is just full of shit. Of course he can mix it, even though wanting to put together 2000 tracks playing variations of the same thing at the same time puts a question on his understanding of mixing and physics basically, he is just super lazy and dishonest.



No dude, he's just a misunderstood genius obviously. I mean, for what other reason would he be sitting on the same music without releasing it since 2004?



Metropolis said:


> Very funny guys. Jari being in here as a user is very unlikely, I haven't seen him on any of the gear or music related forums ever. Except their own Patreon forum. Dude simply doesn't have... "time" for this shit.



I was around for when they first came out and he frequented their own old forum quite a bit. That was where I initially heard about the issues he was having with computing power actually. Mind you this was like 2005.


----------



## Werecow

Metropolis said:


> Very funny guys. Jari being in here as a user is very unlikely, I haven't seen him on any of the gear or music related forums ever. Except their own Patreon forum. Dude simply doesn't have... "time" for this shit.


I think i saw him on a sauna forum once, asking for help. If i remember right, he finally went with a delux model that even had a built in crypto terminal.


----------



## mmr007

Maybe he's just waiting on this guy Dylan to finish his guitars first, then he'll get busy writing again.

I've never been into "reality" tv, but I have come to realize I am addicted to threads about chronic procrastinators and the love/hate they leave in their wake.


----------



## jruivo26

mmr007 said:


> Maybe he's just waiting on this guy Dylan to finish his guitars first, then he'll get busy writing again.



I love this timeline. It's all tied in together


----------



## works0fheart

jruivo26 said:


> I love this timeline. It's all tied in together



Well it's about damned time. I think it's high time that Jari stops investing his time and money into cryptos such as time, and works on time management better to finish time.





Time.


----------



## Ralyks

Man, I have no dog in this fight and have barely listened to Wintersun, and this may be my favorite SSO thread.


----------



## Randy

Apropos of nothing, I actually really liked The Forest Seasons.

Anyway, I get how diva musicians get stuck in their own head and the project gets bigger and bigger etc but tbh Wintersun is pretty good but not exactly splitting the atom. There are other bands farting out hour+ of comparably complex/layered music without much issue. 18 years for three like 45 minute long albums is absurd.

If he got out of his own way, he could drop Time II or some other thing to buy more time (lawl) in a few weeks worth of work, and everyone will forget and throw money at him again.


----------



## fantom

Nag said:


> Food for thought: why were they able to record, mix and release The Forest Seasons but not Time II?


Because Nuclear Blast probably owns the copyright for Time II, and he got into a douchebag argument with them over wasting their money.


----------



## Pietjepieter

Hum I never listen to WIntersum before, but since this treat keeps popping up I checked them out...

In the words of the great Frank Zappa: "It's a little bit cheesy but nicely displayed"

Not my cup of tea but I hope for everyone that likes them that the will put out new music somewhere!


----------



## jruivo26

fantom said:


> Because Nuclear Blast probably owns the copyright for Time II, and he got into a douchebag argument with them over wasting their money.



I kinda feel that's the situation: Time II is finished but is being held captive by the label because Jari is full of shit since 2006


----------



## Metropolis

mmr007 said:


> Maybe he's just waiting on this guy Dylan to finish his guitars first, then he'll get busy writing again.
> 
> I've never been into "reality" tv, but I have come to realize I am addicted to threads about chronic procrastinators and the love/hate they leave in their wake.



Jari stopped working with Dylan on couple of guitars, because he couldn't finish them. He made a post about it on their patreon forum.


----------



## jruivo26

Metropolis said:


> Jari stopped working with Dylan on couple of guitars, because he couldn't finish them. He made a post about it on their patreon forum.



That's exactly what he needs to finish the albums: MOAR EXPENSIVE GUITARS!!1!!

Besides the Jems, the PGM, the Daemoness, the Ibanez RGD, the Jackson, the Tokai Telecaster, the 2 or 3 Solars he has....... I feel the real issue here is he can't release more music because he doesn't have enough guitars. 

Oh and maybe because he spends all the money he gets on useless redundant bullshit.


----------



## KentBrockman

Thanks to this thread, I have been encouraged to listen to Wintersun. I listened to the song Time and thoroughly enjoyed it!


----------



## mehegama

fantom said:


> Because Nuclear Blast probably owns the copyright for Time II, and he got into a douchebag argument with them over wasting their money.


I think this is a very good explanation that to be honest never thought about. At this point is pretty evident that:
1. Jari is full of shit about everything
2. The money is gone. If anyone has seen a single inch of land or one brick for the studio let me know.
3. There will not be new music until Jari is totally skint and Pateron money is gone.


----------



## jruivo26

KentBrockman said:


> Thanks to this thread, I have been encouraged to listen to Wintersun. I listened to the song Time and thoroughly enjoyed it!


I think that might be their best song. Still, the self titled has unparalleled magic and GUESS WHAT, it was recorded and mixed like a normal album and it f*cking smashes everything else


----------



## Metropolis

jruivo26 said:


> That's exactly what he needs to finish the albums: MOAR EXPENSIVE GUITARS!!1!!
> 
> Besides the Jems, the PGM, the Daemoness, the Ibanez RGD, the Jackson, the Tokai Telecaster, the 2 or 3 Solars he has....... I feel the real issue here is he can't release more music because he doesn't have enough guitars.
> 
> Oh and maybe because he spends all the money he gets on useless redundant bullshit.



What I've heard, Jari has been quite creative with the ten or so guitars he's got... and supposedly those aren't only tools to make music when you have tons of plugins and a midi keyboard.

Money isn't gone, if you know the company name Jari is running, and look at the outcome information which is public knowledge in some degree. You simply cannot wash the money and just spend it by yourself into something useless. 

The studio situation is at the "semi studio" level right now, where some of the money have been invested into better gear, such as studio monitors and a new computer. Monitor pair Jari is using costs something like 8-10 grand, and more powerful iMacs aren't cheap either.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

I was listening to a podcast with Jason Richardson. He said he uses two slave computers so he can run projects with 100 sample library tracks and guys like Tom Holkenburg have templates that load up hundreds of tracks ready for their ideas. Maybe 10 years ago it wasn't possible but there's no excuse nowadays if someone like Jason is doing the same thing as Jari in his home. 

But then again not being able to load the tracks was only one of the problems with released Time 2


----------



## Winspear

Yup it's really not that hard. Computer farms have been a thing for sample library use for about 20 years now, and never did they have to be expensive computers. These days SSDs are fast enough to stream entire orchestra libraries live so you don't even need the RAM anymore, nor is 64-128GB RAM particularly expensive in the grand scheme either


----------



## nickgray

Metropolis said:


> Monitor pair Jari is using costs something like 8-10 grand, and more powerful iMacs aren't cheap either.


The studio version of a PRS Private Stock.


----------



## Antiproduct

Well in this regard I can understand Jari actually.
If MacOs is his known environment it only makes sense to stay in it. But, if he is in the market *right now *he sure isn't buying an iMac as these have 16GB of ram max. A maxed out mac studio (128gb ram, best processor, 8tb of extremely fast ssd) + 2 monitor screens are somewhat around 11k €. It seems expensive (and it 100% is more expensive than a windows machine) but it is actually not that much for a professional environment that generates most of the money primarily with that machine. 
New monitors are kind of silly tho as he is buying them for his semi-studio. Room acoustics are much more important than the monitors themself and I doubt that he will spend a couple grand on an optimized room that he will, supposedly, abandon in a few years. The most expensive monitors will sound like entry gear in an unoptimized room. Also learning to work with new monitors is a pain in the ass and takes forever.

He got a lot of money and the tech to support his demands are here now. Time for him to actually start deliver ANYTHING because the list of complains to not put out music is getting smaller and smaller


----------



## Seabeast2000

This album better have a November Rain song on it.


----------



## nightflameauto

Ralyks said:


> Man, I have no dog in this fight and have barely listened to Wintersun, and this may be my favorite SSO thread.


Same.

I have more fun reading this thread than I do spouting my nonsense in any other thread.


----------



## jruivo26

Winspear said:


> Yup it's really not that hard. Computer farms have been a thing for sample library use for about 20 years now, and never did they have to be expensive computers. These days SSDs are fast enough to stream entire orchestra libraries live so you don't even need the RAM anymore, nor is 64-128GB RAM particularly expensive in the grand scheme either



Not to mention DSP hardware like the Universal Audio stuff that can take a huge load (heh) off the processing in the box.


----------



## TedEH

jruivo26 said:


> Time II is finished but is being held captive


I'm not sure that would make much sense - if the end goal that everyone wants is to release the product so that everyone can profit and move on, then what does holding it captive accomplish?


----------



## mastapimp

Seabeast2000 said:


> This album better have a November Rain song on it.


_Do you need some *time* on your own?
Do you need some *time* all alone?
Ooh, everybody needs some *time* on their own
Ooh, don't you know you need some* time* all alone_


----------



## mmr007

Never mind....I've already soured on this thread. I feel like I'm getting jerked off and I'm not even waiting for the damn music. All I hear is fantastical excuses that plague not a single other band or musician on the planet right now from this guy


----------



## Ralyks

So I put Time on at the gym today just to remember what we're talking about. Honestly, it's ok. Nothing really that special.


----------



## fantom

jruivo26 said:


> I kinda feel that's the situation: Time II is finished but is being held captive by the label because Jari is full of shit since 2006



Highly more likely that Jari's ego or incompetence is holding the music captive, not Nuclear Blast. Jari is a talented musician, but he has shown to be inefficient at mixing and producing. Nuclear Blast stopped giving him advances because it didn't make financial sense. I am sure if there was a plan to actually finish the album that was realistic (aka, Jari had stems to send to a real studio for mixing), Nuclear Blast would make a smart business decision to capitalize on it.



Metropolis said:


> You simply cannot wash the money and just spend it by yourself into something useless.


Such innocence. Given things like Rico Jr and Vik, I think it is obvious that people do. Ideally they would't just get away with it. At some point it is pursuing people in court or cutting losses. People keep dumping money on Wintersun just like they do with rogue luthiers.


----------



## Captain Shoggoth

Wintersun S/O in the Daemoness thread reminds me of this thread, from which joy and laughter springs eternal. It is the silver lining to the abject disappointment I get from the band itself



Randy said:


> Apropos of nothing, I actually really liked The Forest Seasons.
> 
> Anyway, I get how diva musicians get stuck in their own head and the project gets bigger and bigger etc but tbh Wintersun is pretty good but not exactly splitting the atom. There are other bands farting out hour+ of comparably complex/layered music without much issue. 18 years for three like 45 minute long albums is absurd.
> 
> If he got out of his own way, he could drop Time II or some other thing to buy more time (lawl) in a few weeks worth of work, and everyone will forget and throw money at him again.



Damn, I _hated _that album. I think I only listened to it the once, I felt like a chump for crowdfunding it. But I'm a shred wanker. S/T or death for me


----------



## Nag

This thread seems to go back and forth between thinking the problem is money/the label, and others thinking it's Jari's ego.

I'm 100% in camp "ego". The music for Time has been inside Jari's computer since 2006-2008 (according to official statements from the Wintersun website that LONG predate the idea of splitting the album in two) so it IS written. We've mentioned many times in here that all the reasons Jari puts up are bullshit because there are solutions to his "ermahgerd layered tercks" (and yes I'm using old memes on purpose) that are free to use and run on standard computers etc. A major label like Nuclear Blast will never tell a signed band "plz don't enter studio, we don't want to have a record to sell" so there just is no money reason why Time II isn't out yet.

Jari disguises it as a money issue cause he's run out of other excuses (writer's blocks and whatnot) and HAS to blame something or someone else on his own shortcomings. That's an ego problem. It might be a full-on personality disorder at this point.


----------



## Metropolis

I don't get the obsession over second part of Time, whatever it is or is it even completely written. According to Jari's update from may 2022 about future albums Time II is 90% done. So it must be really good when it comes out, right? Most anticipated album of melodic death metal ever? Jari's true vision in it's purest form? 

Another thing is "fans" who victimize themselves and make accusations about someones personality or ways to work. And after years still using same after thought arguments over and over. Like pointless and illogical whining would give some control on that. It doesn't just apply to present time, in reality situations and goals change all the time. How to blame someone else if you're the only one making the music. Money was definetly an issue before crowdfunding, but if there's two crowdfundings I don't see it like that anymore. Technical side of making music isn't an issue anymore. Neither creative side, if there's five albums in the making, which is pretty crazy.


----------



## nickgray

Metropolis said:


> So it must be really good when it comes out, right?


----------



## NoodleFace

Metropolis said:


> I don't get the obsession over second part of Time, whatever it is or is it even completely written. According to Jari's update from may 2022 about future albums Time II is 90% done. So it must be really good when it comes out, right? Most anticipated album of melodic death metal ever? Jari's true vision in it's purest form?
> 
> Another thing is "fans" who victimize themselves and make accusations about someones personality or ways to work. And after years still using same after thought arguments over and over. Like pointless and illogical whining would give some control on that. It doesn't just apply to present time, in reality situations and goals change all the time. How to blame someone else if you're the only one making the music. Money was definetly an issue before crowdfunding, but if there's two crowdfundings I don't see it like that anymore. Technical side of making music isn't an issue anymore. Neither creative side, if there's five albums in the making, which is pretty crazy.


Money was only an issue because Jari couldn't work like hundreds of thousands of other musicians since the dawn of time. No one has ever complained about Nuclear Blast not providing the means to record albums. This is 100% Jaris doing and the fans paying him insane amounts of money so he can be an almost millionaire because he put out 3 albums is absolutely insane to me. Fools and their money are soon parted is such an apt representation of this entire situation.


----------



## jruivo26

...Insane amounts of money that have completely disappeared, unless he proves otherwise.
5 years have passed and no studio, no construction, no new music, no real update besides "i am doing 4 albums at the same time in my bedroom", no new live dates, no band members apparently...


----------



## Sermo Lupi

NoodleFace said:


> No one has ever complained about Nuclear Blast not providing the means to record albums. This is 100% Jaris doing and the fans paying him insane amounts of money so he can be an almost millionaire because he put out 3 albums is absolutely insane to me.



Not aiming this at Jari because his struggles are pretty clearly not label-related, but I wonder if that part about Nuclear Blast is actually true. Nuclear Blast has a lot of ex-artists and I do recall some bands complaining about support from them over the years. Nuclear Blast rose to prominence in the 90s and 2000s when music sales started to tank; one has to wonder if their move to sign various big-name acts in the 2000s and 2010s like Slayer, Exodus, Testament, etc. was a move to safeguard their position from declining album sales and whether any of the smaller acts on their roster suffered from that. 

I doubt they'd duck their contractual obligations for recording. In all likelihood, neglected bands just didn't get as long to record and as good a studio as they wanted, plus less marketing and touring support than they wished for.


----------



## Nag

Metropolis said:


> I don't get the obsession over second part of Time, whatever it is or is it even completely written. According to Jari's update from may 2022 about future albums Time II is 90% done. So it must be really good when it comes out, right? Most anticipated album of melodic death metal ever? Jari's true vision in it's purest form?
> 
> Another thing is "fans" who victimize themselves and make accusations about someones personality or ways to work. And after years still using same after thought arguments over and over. Like pointless and illogical whining would give some control on that. It doesn't just apply to present time, in reality situations and goals change all the time. How to blame someone else if you're the only one making the music. Money was definetly an issue before crowdfunding, but if there's two crowdfundings I don't see it like that anymore. Technical side of making music isn't an issue anymore. Neither creative side, if there's five albums in the making, which is pretty crazy.



I feel misrepresented in this reply.

My stance is: I think it's dishonest to the point of almost being criminal to have the music *ready to be recorded and mixed *and just deciding to not provide it, but to milk fans for money instead without delivering any meaningful product. Any other bands doing that? No. It's just him. If he doesn't release the music, then okay, but, don't ask for money then. He's essentially spent the best part of 20 years on fuckin' paid leave at this point, I'd say the people who sent him money definitely have a right to be pissed. Also, 90% done? Some of us have functioning long-term memory and he's been saying that for over a decade.

Your second paragraph definitely makes you sound like you've lost the plot. Noone is victimizing themselves, noone is trying to have control over anything, like, seriously, what are you even talking about? You don't seem to realize that the dude is a professional musician who doesn't produce any music. He pretends to all day, all year, all decade, but he never delivers. If you're gullible enough to think there's 5 albums in the making just because he said so, that's good for you, but the rest of us live in the real world. Where as much as you can consider him to be a great songwriter, he _just doesn't write any songs_.

I for myself don't care anymore if/when he releases it. When he does, I'll listen to it, maybe I'll even like it. Wouldn't be the first time I like music by someone who's full of shit (I like black metal), but, I have the right to call him out on being a dick to his fans. Which he 100% is. He's lucky to have fans this willing to lose their money, I don't know how he does it.


----------



## Netherhound

lol Wintersauna is still a band?

Waiting on Jari to launch his NFT collection any day now.


----------



## fantom

Sermo Lupi said:


> Not aiming this at Jari because his struggles are pretty clearly not label-related, but I wonder if that part about Nuclear Blast is actually true. Nuclear Blast has a lot of ex-artists and I do recall some bands complaining about support from them over the years.



Nuclear blast made a public statement about it. Paraphrased, they said something like "compromises need to be made to make an album feasible".

The point here... How is it that hundreds of other bands are able to release material with similar level of complexity on the same label?


----------



## Sermo Lupi

fantom said:


> Nuclear blast made a public statement about it. Paraphrased, they said something like "compromises need to be made to make an album feasible".
> 
> The point here... How is it that hundreds of other bands are able to release material with similar level of complexity on the same label?



You seem to have taken that out of context. Judging from the statement itself, it seems that Jari threw Nuclear Blast under the bus by blaming them for not supporting his vision for the album and Wintersun fans started harassing Nuclear Blast about it. 

Nuclear Blast's response was rather mild, opening with two paragraphs of praise for the fans, before commenting that "the business side of music can often be rough, and especially with a project as extensive as the TIME series, compromises have to be found to make an album both beautiful and feasible to all parties involved", declining further details. 

Nuclear Blast's claim that they'd be "working together with Jari and his management to find the optimal solution for his concerns" is as good a confirmation you're ever going to get that they found his recording requests asinine and would not support them--probably for good reason. 

That isn't proof Nuclear Blast hasn't rowed with other artists over album production. In fact, I'd bet it happens quite a lot. It's just that there never would've been a public statement if Jari hadn't moaned about it and beckoned his flying monkeys. 

For the record, high-budget requests like recording live orchestras are regularly denied by labels. That isn't unique to Jari. He just seems to be one of the few to air his grievances with his label on social media.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Anybody who has ever been a "boss" in charge of other people knows somebody like this IMO. Some people just cannot deliver something or complete a task, no matter what you do.

They might be clever and theoretically capable people. You can support them, incentivise them, pressure them, punish them - basically the full gamut of "carrot" or "stick" - and they will still fail to deliver. Some people are their own worst enemies. In my observation, it comes from any of the following:

1. Lacking confidence and being insecure, full of self doubt. Basically you're scared to complete a project. Either you think it's not good enough, or it's been such a part of your life that you don't know what you'll do when it's gone.
2. Way too much ego. I'm a genius. Other people can't possibly understand what I'm going through. Other people don't deserve me. etc
3. Zero organisation skills. Things are lost, missing and constantly going wrong. (This is the most common group IME)
4. Perfectionists who can't stop and say "enough is enough", then deliver the project
5. Bullshit artists. Promise the world for a paycheck but have no ability or intention of actually delivering.

I'm going to guess that Jari is a mix of 3 and 5, but he likes to use excuse number 4. At this point he knows it's a joke about him never releasing the albums, but he continues to ask dedicated fans for support. That's behaviour exactly in line with scam artists - especially when you keep people waiting with "I have four albums 90% done" and that sort of thing.

The facts seem to speak to him being totally disorganised. Having 1,000 fucking instrumental tracks or whatever isn't *that* hard with some basic project management. As others said, plenty of bands have made complex music. And Jari evidently has had plenty of money for a beefed up computer, storage space, or to just pay somebody who does know what they're doing. The fact he hasn't simply paid somebody to mix the material also means he has condition number 2 - where his ego is so massive that only HE is able to solve this problem.


----------



## primitiverebelworld

Forget Time 123 etc - Forest Seasons kicks a** and the people involved have serious musical capabilities to produce good music beyond time.


----------



## Dyingsea

Can’t believe anyone is even still talking about this guy at this point or the band anymore.


----------



## TedEH

Netherhound said:


> Wintersauna


Dead, as the kids would say. Amazing.



Metropolis said:


> So it must be really good when it comes out, right? Most anticipated album of melodic death metal ever? Jari's true vision in it's purest form?


I dunno how else to tell you this, but delays usually mean a drop in quality, not the other way around. In almost any industry, when a product takes significantly more than a reasonable amount of time to produce, that's typically a sign the project has been mismanaged or just failed entirely in it's goals.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Dyingsea said:


> Can’t believe anyone is even still talking about this guy at this point or the band anymore.


It's more of a spectacle thing at this point.


----------



## Dayn

If Nuclear Blast are involved, then it wouldn't be a simple matter of just releasing the music. Nuclear Blast would have rights in relation to the music and they would want to ensure their rights aren't prejudiced, and I doubt Jari would want to leave himself open to a big claim against him.

So it'll probably be stuck in development hell forever until one side gives up. If he wanted to release it, he would, but he can't because his ego won't let him compromise with Nuclear Blast and Nuclear Blast aren't just going to give up on their investment.

That's my speculation, at least.


----------



## Werecow

Dyingsea said:


> Can’t believe anyone is even still talking about this guy at this point or the band anymore.


I've been reading this thread for years, and only listened to their music for the first time a couple weeks ago  I like the thread more than the music.


----------



## jruivo26

TedEH said:


> I dunno how else to tell you this, but delays usually mean a drop in quality, not the other way around. In almost any industry, when a product takes significantly more than a reasonable amount of time to produce, that's typically a sign the project has been mismanaged or just failed entirely in it's goals.



I still remember the yearning and insane antecipation for Tool's new album only for them to *finally* present an amalgam of old ideas and boring jams that were kept in a hard drive for years and turned into songs with lyrics (let's not forget the useless interludes). Of course the AOTY accolades rained down on it, and I guess the same thing would happen with Jari's stash of recluse material.

That being said, The Way of the Fire has been played live since 2011 and I really like it. I don't know why they picked that one for live playing so long ago, but if it's finished, everyone knows it and the backing tracks of synths, orchestra and vocals are already there, why didn't they release it as a single? And then repeat the process for the other songs


----------



## mehegama

jruivo26 said:


> That being said, The Way of the Fire has been played live since 2011 and I really like it. I don't know why they picked that one for live playing so long ago, but if it's finished, everyone knows it and the backing tracks of synths, orchestra and vocals are already there, why didn't they release it as a single?


I personally find the song pretty meh but in any case I think we all know at this point that the music has been written and recorded ages ago. The RAM/CPU excuses do not hold these times, you can rent farms that can run simulations of the universe NASA style these days. Even Jari's insult to sound engineering endeavours, can easily be handled.
I think @Flappydoodle summarized it pretty well. The guy is a mess and we ll only see new music if he runs out of money from patreon.


----------



## jruivo26

mehegama said:


> The guy is a mess and we ll only see new music if he runs out of money from patreon.



The thing is, he has around 172 patreon subscribers (something around that number) * paying 10 eur/month = 1720 euros a month. 

You still have to deduct any kind of tax enforced by the platform (if any, I never had a patreon). 

Then, divide by each member of the band (does this happen though? I find it hard to believe that Jari forces the other guys to create content like podcasts and cooking lessons and then keeps all of the patreon money).

My question now is: is this enough to live in Finland? I seriously doubt it


----------



## j3ps3

jruivo26 said:


> The thing is, he has around 172 patreon subscribers (something around that number) * paying 10 eur/month = 1720 euros a month.
> 
> You still have to deduct any kind of tax enforced by the platform (if any, I never had a patreon).
> 
> Then, divide by each member of the band (does this happen though? I find it hard to believe that Jari forces the other guys to create content like podcasts and cooking lessons and then keeps all of the patreon money).
> 
> My question now is: is this enough to live in Finland? I seriously doubt it


It is.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

jruivo26 said:


> Then, divide by each member of the band (does this happen though? I find it hard to believe that Jari forces the other guys to create content like podcasts and cooking lessons and then keeps all of the patreon money).



Since Wintersun is Jari Maenpaa's project all the other members would be session players paid for shows, videos, photo shoots etc. I don't know whats on the Patreon but judging from Youtube it is content that is filmed in big batches and then slowly released.

Jukka + Kai play in Nightwish, Asim left the band and Teemu is a guitar teacher who has his own project Smackbound. According to setlist,fm Wintersun last played 2 gigs in 2020 and 10 in 2019. It's safe to say the 3 remaining members don't rely on Wintersun and have probably made very little from it the last 3+ years.

It wouldn't surprise me if Wintersun doesn't tour again, if they do probably under a different lineup and another album is about as likely as the next King Killer Chronicles book. Funny enough both Jari and Rothfuss convinced fans to give them hundreds of thousands and never went through with their plan for the money.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

Lorcan Ward said:


> Since Wintersun is Jari Maenpaa's project all the other members would be session players paid for shows, videos, photo shoots etc. I don't know whats on the Patreon but judging from Youtube it is content that is filmed in big batches and then slowly released.
> 
> Jukka + Kai play in Nightwish, Asim left the band and Teemu is a guitar teacher who has his own project Smackbound. According to setlist,fm Wintersun last played 2 gigs in 2020 and 10 in 2019. It's safe to say the 3 remaining members don't rely on Wintersun and have probably made very little from it the last 3+ years.
> 
> It wouldn't surprise me if Wintersun doesn't tour again, if they do probably under a different lineup and another album is about as likely as the next King Killer Chronicles book. Funny enough both Jari and Rothfuss convinced fans to give them hundreds of thousands and never went through with their plan for the money.



Hate to say it, but up until a couple years ago it would've served most of those guys to continue being in Wintersun for the exposure. 

Kai became Nightwish's permanent drummer in 2019. Jukka and Heikki (Wintersun's touring drummer) had been involved in Norther but that ended in 2012; Jukka wasn't a full member of Nightwish until 2022 and Heikki was hired by Finntroll in 2014 but didn't appear on an album until 2020. Teemu still is not in any notable projects aside from Wintersun, incredible as he is. Asim is similar.

In that sense, the Wintersun affiliation might've helped them with credibility/visibility, be that for teaching, session work, or trying to get placements in other bands. Now that Kai, Jukka and Heikki have moved onto more notable and permanent projects, you have to wonder if they'd return even for session work unless it was rigorously scheduled. Wikipedia's list of 'current Wintersun members' is probably wishful thinking for now. 

Your last paragraph nails it, I think. If the material is mostly written, there's still a slim chance Time II comes out. However, even an assumption as generous as that relies on meticulous management of the rest of the project with so many band members having moved on. Given that studio projects are rarely worth the investment anymore without the prospect of touring, the odds are stacked against Wintersun hopefuls.


----------



## MFB

Sermo Lupi said:


> Hate to say it, but up until a couple years ago it would've served most of those guys to continue *being in Wintersun for the exposure*.
> 
> Kai became Nightwish's permanent drummer in 2019. Jukka and Heikki (Wintersun's touring drummer) had been involved in Norther but that ended in 2012; Jukka wasn't a full member of Nightwish until 2022 and Heikki was hired by Finntroll in 2014 but didn't appear on an album until 2020. Teemu still is not in any notable projects aside from Wintersun, incredible as he is. Asim is similar.
> 
> In that sense,* the Wintersun affiliation might've helped them with credibility/visibility*, be that for teaching, session work, or trying to get placements in other bands. Now that Kai, Jukka and Heikki have moved onto more notable and permanent projects, you have to wonder if they'd return even for session work unless it was rigorously scheduled. Wikipedia's list of 'current Wintersun members' is probably wishful thinking for now.
> 
> Your last paragraph nails it, I think. If the material is mostly written, there's still a slim chance Time II comes out. However, even an assumption as generous as that relies on meticulous management of the rest of the project with so many band members having moved on. Given that studio projects are rarely worth the investment anymore without the prospect of touring, the odds are stacked against Wintersun hopefuls.



Uh, aside from this forum, I haven't seen anyone repping any Wintersun gear or mentioning them in social media posts; if anything them being in Nightwish/Finntroll, etc will probably have the inverse effect and bring exposure back TO Wintersun.


----------



## Drew

This thread makes me feel better about my own pace in the studio.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

MFB said:


> Uh, aside from this forum, I haven't seen anyone repping any Wintersun gear or mentioning them in social media posts; if anything them being in Nightwish/Finntroll, etc will probably have the inverse effect and bring exposure back TO Wintersun.



I've known plenty of Wintersun fans outside of these forums over the years and I wouldn't count myself as a fan for the record. They're one of the more notable bands in the power metal scene, which, yes, is admittedly rather small. 

The point is, before those Wintersun members joined larger bands, being in a semi-defunct Wintersun provided some visibility at least. Them getting that exposure elsewhere now is irrelevant to the point I was making.


----------



## nightflameauto

Drew said:


> This thread makes me feel better about my own pace in the studio.


Yeah, every time I think, "I should really finish that song I've been working on for the last six months," I check the Wintersun thread and go, "Nope. Still good."


----------



## Seabeast2000

j3ps3 said:


> It is.



Hey @thebeesknees22 , I have found your new home.


----------



## thebeesknees22

Seabeast2000 said:


> Hey @thebeesknees22 , I have found your new home.


haha, Finland?

hmmmm.....



"wet all year"

.....wet....all...year...
-_-
-___-
-______-

I think I'm gonna have to pass on that one. I had enough of that when I lived in Vancouver, BC haha

Let the search for my new home continue! haha


----------



## Seabeast2000

thebeesknees22 said:


> haha, Finland?
> 
> hmmmm.....
> View attachment 115006
> 
> 
> "wet all year"
> 
> .....wet....all...year...
> -_-
> -___-
> -______-
> 
> I think I'm gonna have to pass on that one. I had enough of that when I lived in Vancouver, BC haha
> 
> Let the search for my new home continue! haha



I'm going to take this to DM's and life coach you son.


----------



## thebeesknees22

Seabeast2000 said:


> I'm going to take this to DM's and life coach you son.


thanks @Seabeast2000!





You really care. Teach me the ways master sifu sir!


----------



## Xiphos68

While I can't say that I'm thrilled with the ways things have gone on Wintersun. 

It's bewildering to me that Teemu, Kai or Jukka have never ever said anything. 
None of them have. 

It just makes me wonder if there is more to it and Jari just isn't sharing it? 

Maybe those guys just avoid conflict... But I also can't see them involved on any level of a band that they didn't believe in unless they are just really good friends.


----------



## MFB

thebeesknees22 said:


> haha, Finland?
> 
> hmmmm.....
> View attachment 115006
> 
> 
> "wet all year"
> 
> .....wet....all...year...
> -_-
> -___-
> -______-
> 
> I think I'm gonna have to pass on that one. I had enough of that when I lived in Vancouver, BC haha
> 
> Let the search for my new home continue! haha



Wet all year huh? Heard that before.


----------



## Velokki

Xiphos68 said:


> While I can't say that I'm thrilled with the ways things have gone on Wintersun.
> 
> It's bewildering to me that Teemu, Kai or Jukka have never ever said anything.
> None of them have.
> 
> It just makes me wonder if there is more to it and Jari just isn't sharing it?
> 
> Maybe those guys just avoid conflict... But I also can't see them involved on any level of a band that they didn't believe in unless they are just really good friends.



Kai is a really good guy. Like a really solid, friendly dude. His way of letting Jari know he's full of shit, is doing work at other bands and getting a proper job @ Nightwish. Also, did you know Forest Seasons drums were not Kai's, they were just micromanaged by Jari in a VST? I think that's also a sign for the drummer that the band leader really doesn't think you matter. If I was a drummer of Kai's stature, and my drum parts were done NOT BY ME... on a VST... I would just leave, waving the middle finger.

Teemu is a great, great guy. Vehemently against any kind of conflict - or at least for me, he's been very friendly and peaceful every time I've taken a lesson from him. Once when we met live, I asked him how Jari was as a person, and he just smiled and basically told in the friendliest way possible that he's intense and stubborn.

So yeah, there you have it. I don't know about Jukka, but Teemu and Kai are super nice guys who would never cause a conflict. And against Jari, you cannot win or get anything through. Asim always struck me as someone who demands respect and to be heard, as if the band was a democracy. And well... you saw how that turned out


----------



## fantom

MFB said:


> Uh, aside from this forum, I haven't seen anyone repping any Wintersun gear or mentioning them in social media posts; if anything them being in Nightwish/Finntroll, etc will probably have the inverse effect and bring exposure back TO Wintersun.


Nightwish, sure. But Wintersun has been getting a lot more attention than Finntroll... Both inside and outside of the metalhead communities. Just look at YouTube reaction video view counts.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

thebeesknees22 said:


> haha, Finland?
> 
> hmmmm.....
> View attachment 115006
> 
> 
> "wet all year"
> 
> .....wet....all...year...
> -_-
> -___-
> -______-
> 
> I think I'm gonna have to pass on that one. I had enough of that when I lived in Vancouver, BC haha
> 
> Let the search for my new home continue! haha



British Columbia is one of the wettest places on earth. Vancouver gets 1200mm-2500mm of annual precipitation depending on area. Finland gets 450mm-750mm, only half of which falls as snow. In other words, if you lived in a particularly wet region of Vancouver (e.g. Grouse Mountain) and then a particularly dry part of Finland and didn't count snowfall as 'wetness', the difference in precipitation between the two places is literally an order of magnitude (a factor of 10x). 

Virtually anywhere in Europe will have a nicer climate than most of Canada. The gulf stream is a wonderful thing. When you hear stereotypes about European weather like London being overcast or Scandinavia being cold, it's usually relative to other European places like Spain or Italy. As someone who's lived a long time in Canada and in Europe, I can assure you that we are not considered in these stereotypes and that the reputation of our climate is mainly that of an unlivable hellscape. The Scandinavians commiserate with us but that's about it. 

I can't tell you how many Canadian relatives I have who talk shit about the UK's climate when they live in a place that gets 2-3x as much rainfall. My working theory is that people watch too much TV and movies.


----------



## thebeesknees22

Sermo Lupi said:


> British Columbia is one of the wettest places on earth. Vancouver gets 1200mm-2500mm of annual precipitation depending on area. Finland gets 450mm-750mm, only half of which falls as snow. In other words, if you lived in a particularly wet region of Vancouver (e.g. Grouse Mountain) and then a particularly dry part of Finland and didn't count snowfall as 'wetness', the difference in precipitation between the two places is literally an order of magnitude (a factor of 10x).
> 
> Virtually anywhere in Europe will have a nicer climate than most of Canada. The gulf stream is a wonderful thing. When you hear stereotypes about European weather like London being overcast or Scandinavia being cold, it's usually relative to other European places like Spain or Italy. As someone who's lived a long time in Canada and in Europe, I can assure you that we are not considered in these stereotypes and that the reputation of our climate is mainly that of an unlivable hellscape. The Scandinavians commiserate with us but that's about it.
> 
> I can't tell you how many Canadian relatives I have who talk shit about the UK's climate when they live in a place that gets 2-3x as much rainfall. My working theory is that people watch too much TV and movies.


oh cool! good to know.
I was just going by what google was telling me.

Make way then. Time for the North American invasion of Europe! haha


----------



## p0ke

thebeesknees22 said:


> "wet all year"



Well that's a bit of an exaggeration  I mean, the humidity is nowhere near what I've experienced in Australia for example. It rains a fair bit, sure, and particularly autumn is muddy af, but the rest of the year generally isn't bad at all. And when there's a proper winter (doesn't happen every year these days), the air can actually be dry af, sometimes to the point that it causes nosebleeds. 

The worst part of living here really is the darkness. Now it's early autumn, and it already gets pitch black outside at around 8pm and before it starts to get lighter, the sun only comes up for 2-3 hours every day. And if it's overcast, you won't even notice it's been up at all. Also further up north the sun literally doesn't come up at all for a long time in the winter. And then of course the opposite happens in the summer, but that's not a huge problem since you can just cover the windows while you sleep.

Snow kinda saves the situation, as the whiteness makes everything much lighter, but because of climate change, we don't necessarily get snow every year. So in such cases, it's basically half a year of autumn with complete darkness for a month or two. It's really depressing, and hard to imagine for someone who hasn't experienced it first hand. I'm not a sun worshipper by any means and often like to keep the blinds shut and all that, but still, the prolonged lack of sunlight really messes with your head.


----------



## thebeesknees22

p0ke said:


> .....And when there's a proper winter (doesn't happen every year these days), the air can actually be dry af, sometimes to the point that it causes nosebleeds...


Oh yeah I actually used to get that here in MTL. 

I got tired of always having super dry sinuses and getting sick from it so I read up a bunch of stuff. A tip I found was to put a little bit of vaseline inside of your nostrils. People laugh at me for doing it, but I swear it works. I haven't had an issue since with dried up sinuses, and I haven't had a cold or flu or anything since I started doing that which was like...... 4 years ago? give or take. 

Allergies in the spring and whatnot are a lot less of an issue for me doing that too



p0ke said:


> The worst part of living here really is the darkness. Now it's early autumn, and it already gets pitch black outside at around 8pm and before it starts to get lighter, the sun only comes up for 2-3 hours every day. And if it's overcast, you won't even notice it's been up at all. Also further up north the sun literally doesn't come up at all for a long time in the winter. And then of course the opposite happens in the summer, but that's not a huge problem since you can just cover the windows while you sleep.
> 
> Snow kinda saves the situation, as the whiteness makes everything much lighter, but because of climate change, we don't necessarily get snow every year. So in such cases, it's basically half a year of autumn with complete darkness for a month or two. It's really depressing, and hard to imagine for someone who hasn't experienced it first hand. I'm not a sun worshipper by any means and often like to keep the blinds shut and all that, but still, the prolonged lack of sunlight really messes with your head.



The lack of sun, I'd say I'm used to. Just because I've had to work in dark studio's most of my adult life, but it does get to me pretty often if I can't catch a break to go outside for lunch or something.


----------



## p0ke

thebeesknees22 said:


> The lack of sun, I'd say I'm used to. Just because I've had to work in dark studio's most of my adult life, but it does get to me pretty often if I can't catch a break to go outside for lunch or something.



Yeah, but it's a whole different thing when the sun just isn't there. You go outside hoping to energize a little, but it feels the same as being inside, just cold and moist  
I don't recall living in Sweden ever being as dark and gloomy as here, even though I only live about 500km further up north now. I guess it gets exponentially darker the further up north you go or something...


----------



## Kovah

This is so entertaining


----------



## TedEH

The tracks-per-rif breakdown is key information, I'm so relieved it was included. Next time I need to know that an unreleased song used 18 tracks in the 11th riff, I can refer back to this.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

In 2022 you have to imagine Wintersun's music from a written description. I love part 8-12 but it gets very bloated from 13 onwards but comes back with that epic Wintersun chorus at 17+18. This is Spinal Tap levels of comedy except it's a serious post from an actual band : / 

This is the kind of post people make about their bedroom projects when they are miles away from releasing anything but want to share their excitement. It really doesn't help that I'm listening to Aether Realm right now either.


----------



## nightflameauto

That parts per riff breakdown is one of the most hysterically comical things I've ever seen. Who takes the time to even contemplate that shit? Wow.


----------



## Tenaba

Lorcan Ward said:


> This is the kind of post people make about their bedroom projects when they are miles away from releasing anything but want to share their excitement. It really doesn't help that I'm listening to Aether Realm right now either.


Yeah, well the first minute of my upcoming song is going to be 60 seconds long.


----------



## sleewell

insert local band says big things coming meme!!!!


----------



## JK-PA

I hope he's going to release that song track by track.


----------



## The Mirror

Saying the song has 470 tracks when at most 57 of them play at the same time is exactly the same line of thought as saying that a traffic light doesn't neet 3 lights when on average only one is ever glowing at any point.

Also big chance that the drums alone take at least 15 of those tracks..


----------



## j3ps3

Jari, being the musical pioneer he is, will soon release an album that you can listen to by just imagining it based on the information he gives you.


----------



## Metropolis

More like insert Jari trolling "fans" with unreleased songs and albums.


----------



## Andromalia

j3ps3 said:


> Jari, being the musical pioneer he is, will soon release an album that you can listen to by just imagining it based on the information he gives you.


Technically, that's what sheet music is, unburdened by trifle things such as a performer.


----------



## Kovah

Metropolis said:


> More like insert Jari trolling "fans" with unreleased songs and albums.


I'm pretty sure most "fans" are just following the Wintersun facebook for comedy relief at that point and no longer care about upcoming releases, so I'm not sure who he's trolling.


----------



## brector

Metropolis said:


> More like insert Jari trolling "fans" with unreleased songs and albums.


Good morning Jari, how was your sauna this am?


----------



## Sermo Lupi

Can we just go back to discussing the weather? I feel like that was more entertaining.

Come to think of it, how do we know that list of numbers isn't Jari's weather forecast for next month? Band's already called Wintersun and the forecast cuts off at day 19 because the rest is unforeseeable. Guy's already been saying to expect sun and we get rain. Jari was a meteorologist all along.


----------



## Metropolis

Kovah said:


> I'm pretty sure most "fans" are just following the Wintersun facebook for comedy relief at that point and no longer care about upcoming releases, so I'm not sure who he's trolling.



Could be whatever, people have weird intentions and reasons why they keep doing things.



brector said:


> Good morning Jari, how was your sauna this am?



First of all, my first or even second name is not Jari  we finns usually enjoy sauna at least after 6pm, and morning sauna is considered a bit weird habit.


----------



## GunpointMetal

I wrote two EPs in the amount of time it took him to count his riffs.


----------



## Neon_Knight_

Andromalia said:


> Technically, that's what sheet music is, unburdened by trifle things such as a performer.


I really wouldn't put it past him to release sheet music for an album, accompanied by an announcement that the album won't be released quite yet, because he isn't happy with the drum sounds yet and needs more crowdfunding to upgrade his computer to handle processing all of the tracks simultaneously.

EDIT:
Obviously only extra generous patreons will get a copy of the sheet music.


----------



## buriedoutback

... I wonder if he'll be using his Solar guitar for the new song ...


----------



## Neon_Knight_

buriedoutback said:


> ... I wonder if he'll be using his Solar guitar for the new song ...


For which tracks?


----------



## prlgmnr

He just needs us to buy him one computer to render each track because of how complex they are and then he'll let us know the first letter of each word in the name of the song.


----------



## nightflameauto

Out of curiosity, I took my new laptop, which was a cheapo I got on clearance, loaded up a DAW (Mixbus 32C, notoriously grumpy with resources on high track counts), popped in some string and brass and woodwind plugins, and built up a score of about thirty takes of midi, plus Addictive drums separated out to individual tracks for processing and three guitar tracks.

This is an 11th gen i5, 16 GB ram.

Guess what? Worked fine. Even with a bunch of mixing plugins.

What the fuck kind of shit is he pulling that he needs some monster system to mix it?


----------



## Sermo Lupi

nightflameauto said:


> Out of curiosity, I took my new laptop, which was a cheapo I got on clearance, loaded up a DAW (Mixbus 32C, notoriously grumpy with resources on high track counts), popped in some string and brass and woodwind plugins, and built up a score of about thirty takes of midi, plus Addictive drums separated out to individual tracks for processing and three guitar tracks.
> 
> This is an 11th gen i5, 16 GB ram.
> 
> Guess what? Worked fine. Even with a bunch of mixing plugins.
> 
> What the fuck kind of shit is he pulling that he needs some monster system to mix it?



There's Jari's needs and then there's the sliding scale of what composers use in the music industry. 

Here's an article on Hans Zimmer's setup from 10 years ago (2012). He had 2 computers for mixing, plus 14 separate servers with 24-64 gigs of RAM and 8-12 core processors for running the samples. Considering those specs are still impressive a decade later, I can only imagine what he's using in 2022. 

Top studios aren't going to use clearance-grade laptops, let's not flatter ourselves here. Justified or not, Jari felt he needed a "professional" setup before he could get any work done and professional systems can be extraordinarily elaborate.


----------



## TedEH

That's also a cherry-picked example of top-of-the-line stuff for movie scoring, which has different requirements than metal music production, and being done by people who have the resources and experience to push real boundaries. It's by no means an example of what is "needed" to produce what would otherwise be a straightforward metal album.


----------



## GunpointMetal

nightflameauto said:


> Out of curiosity, I took my new laptop, which was a cheapo I got on clearance, loaded up a DAW (Mixbus 32C, notoriously grumpy with resources on high track counts), popped in some string and brass and woodwind plugins, and built up a score of about thirty takes of midi, plus Addictive drums separated out to individual tracks for processing and three guitar tracks.
> 
> This is an 11th gen i5, 16 GB ram.
> 
> Guess what? Worked fine. Even with a bunch of mixing plugins.
> 
> What the fuck kind of shit is he pulling that he needs some monster system to mix it?


It's called a "grift" and it's when you convince people you or your product are way more valuable than they actually are, then you waste the money on dumb shit and post moronic stuff like your TOTAL TRACK COUNT. I can't imagine writing a song bad enough that I thought I needed 450+ layers of what is surely mostly octaves/unisons of the same 4-5 lines.


----------



## nightflameauto

Sermo Lupi said:


> There's Jari's needs and then there's the sliding scale of what composers use in the music industry.
> 
> Here's an article on Hans Zimmer's setup from 10 years ago (2012). He had 2 computers for mixing, plus 14 separate servers with 24-64 gigs of RAM and 8-12 core processors for running the samples. Considering those specs are still impressive a decade later, I can only imagine what he's using in 2022.
> 
> Top studios aren't going to use clearance-grade laptops, let's not flatter ourselves here. Justified or not, Jari felt he needed a "professional" setup before he could get any work done and professional systems can be extraordinarily elaborate.


Sure, sure, if you feel you need "professional" equipment, by all means. But pretending you are incapable of doing anything while justifying that lack of movement by saying you simply can not work without the best of the best of the bet? Bleh. Nonsense.

My point being, if you want to get the work done? You get it done. Regardless of whether you can afford the multi-million-dollar setup of someone like Hans Zimmer. And mentioning someone a prolific as Hans as a justification for whatever's going on here is pretty funny too.


----------



## olejason

I had no idea how much of a child that dude is. Good lord.


----------



## TedEH

I'd be willing to bet that if Zimmer, or someone similarly professional was short on resources and took on something too ambitious, he would still find a way to deliver the best that was possible with what was available, or reach out to appropriate help to get it done, or re-negotiate the scope of the project, etc etc etc.

There's a million and one ways to get around constraints - if anything, so much creativity stems from working within and around constraints - _that's half the job_. By definition, if you cannot think of a way through your constraints, then you are lacking creativity.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I don't know what's more pointless, the endless relitigation of the "technical difficulties" or folks defending it. Every 10 pages it's the same thread.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

TedEH said:


> That's also a cherry-picked example of top-of-the-line stuff for movie scoring, which has different requirements than metal music production, and being done by people who have the resources and experience to push real boundaries. It's by no means an example of what is "needed" to produce what would otherwise be a straightforward metal album.



You're just regurgitating what I already said about Jari not needing a setup like that but couching it as a rebuttal as if I disagree. I don't. 

However, if you think Hans Zimmer is the only composer with a setup more elaborate than a laptop bought on clearance, or that professional composers outside the film industry don't also have studio-grade computers, I don't know what to tell you. Bothering to cite a source of what a professional setup looks like (as outlined in an interview by a "Director of Musical Technology") is not cherry-picking.



nightflameauto said:


> Sure, sure, if you feel you need "professional" equipment, by all means. But pretending you are incapable of doing anything while justifying that lack of movement by saying you simply can not work without the best of the best of the bet? Bleh. Nonsense.
> 
> My point being, if you want to get the work done? You get it done. Regardless of whether you can afford the multi-million-dollar setup of someone like Hans Zimmer. And mentioning someone a prolific as Hans as a justification for whatever's going on here is pretty funny too.



As I already mentioned, Jari's justification for needing a studio-grade setup is worthy of criticism. 

Studio-grade setups are pretty common in the music industry, however. Jari's idea to acquire one didn't come out of no where.


----------



## nightflameauto

Sermo Lupi said:


> You're just regurgitating what I already said about Jari not needing a setup like that but couching it as a rebuttal as if I disagree. I don't.
> 
> However, if you think Hans Zimmer is the only composer with a setup more elaborate than a laptop bought on clearance, or that professional composers outside the film industry don't also have studio-grade computers, I don't know what to tell you. Bothering to cite a source of what a professional setup looks like (as outlined in an interview by a "Director of Musical Technology") is not cherry-picking.
> 
> 
> 
> As I already mentioned, Jari's justification for needing a studio-grade setup is worthy of criticism.
> 
> Studio-grade setups are pretty common in the music industry, however. Jari's idea to acquire one didn't come out of no where.


Sure, the idea didn't come from nowhere. But, again, there are a LOT of bands out there making albums on a lot less horsepower than a Zimmer level room full of equipment. Some of them are even the crazy symphonic metal bands.

I mean, in a perfect world I'd have a loaded workstation for my audio, and another loaded workstation for my graphics and writing. But, not having the money or the space for all that? I get by with a couple old beater laptops and a newer one. *SHRUG* The better equipment may help, but asking other people to fund it seems a bit out there to me. Even more out there is getting that money from others, then proceeding to do nothing with it.


----------



## TedEH

Sermo Lupi said:


> You're just regurgitating what I already said about Jari not needing a setup like that but couching it as a rebuttal as if I disagree. I don't.


Relax, I was agreeing with you, and just adding that film scores have different requirements than metal recordings.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

lol


----------



## Sermo Lupi

nightflameauto said:


> Sure, the idea didn't come from nowhere. But, again, there are a LOT of bands out there making albums on a lot less horsepower than a Zimmer level room full of equipment. Some of them are even the crazy symphonic metal bands.
> 
> I mean, in a perfect world I'd have a loaded workstation for my audio, and another loaded workstation for my graphics and writing. But, not having the money or the space for all that? I get by with a couple old beater laptops and a newer one. *SHRUG* The better equipment may help, but asking other people to fund it seems a bit out there to me. Even more out there is getting that money from others, then proceeding to do nothing with it.



I don't disagree with any of that, you can make do with less and it's a sliding scale like I said before.

Without in any way putting Jari's music on the same level, it's notable that Michael Romeo's setup for Symphony X is Cubase running on his mixing machine with "Vienna Ensemble Pro networked across multiple computers for the big orchestral stuff and sound design" (from a 2018 interview here; he's talked about it in greater depth elsewhere). Romeo is a great example of the type of musician you're talking about, who made do with less earlier on in his career, but with a goal to improve the production values of his music over time. Eventually, he did reach a point where he needed multiple computers to run his sample libraries, just like professional composers and orchestrators (of which I'd consider Romeo to be one). 

In Jari's case, it's his general slipperiness that's the issue. He strikes me as someone who thinks he has to have the best to be the best, as opposed to someone like Romeo, who found himself in a place where he's fortunate enough to chase the diminishing returns of orchestral music production because he's been at the top of his game for a long time.

My point is just that you do see these elaborate computer setups in many professional contexts. I don't doubt its necessary in many cases and that a modest laptop or home computer wouldn't do. However, I agree Jari put the cart before the horse in his case. 



TedEH said:


> Relax, I was agreeing with you, and just adding that film scores have different requirements than metal recordings.



Fair enough, I guess I read your post as being more hostile than it was.


----------



## Randy

TedEH said:


> Relax, I was agreeing with you, and just adding that film scores have different requirements than metal recordings.



And still get done in less than 10 years


----------



## GunpointMetal

Sermo Lupi said:


> There's Jari's needs and then there's the sliding scale of what composers use in the music industry.
> 
> Here's an article on Hans Zimmer's setup from 10 years ago (2012). He had 2 computers for mixing, plus 14 separate servers with 24-64 gigs of RAM and 8-12 core processors for running the samples. Considering those specs are still impressive a decade later, I can only imagine what he's using in 2022.
> 
> Top studios aren't going to use clearance-grade laptops, let's not flatter ourselves here. Justified or not, Jari felt he needed a "professional" setup before he could get any work done and professional systems can be extraordinarily elaborate.


Hans Zimmer also didn't crowdfund his studio, and he has a long history of work to back up his need for the stuff. Wintersun is a niche of a niche of a niche and have what? Three albums in 20 years?


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Why do I get Vinnie Vincent vibes with all of this? Hmm...


----------



## SamSam

I like Wintersun. But to compare Jari to Zimmer in any creative metric is preposterous.

Bar excuses and grift. Jari takes that one.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Sermo Lupi said:


> Jari's justification for needing a studio-grade setup is worthy of criticism


His justification is why piss around other people's money I'd be on the hook for paying back when I can just leech off of fans. I've watched far too many Kickstarter Crap episodes to believe this is anything other than a badly thought out e-beggar trying to score some shit for free and provide little value to the people funding this.


----------



## TedEH

Just spotted the thread title change.  Very nice.


----------



## Neon_Knight_

Sermo Lupi said:


> There's Jari's needs and then there's the sliding scale of what composers use in the music industry.
> 
> Here's an article on Hans Zimmer's setup from 10 years ago (2012). He had 2 computers for mixing, plus 14 separate servers with 24-64 gigs of RAM and 8-12 core processors for running the samples. Considering those specs are still impressive a decade later, I can only imagine what he's using in 2022.
> 
> Top studios aren't going to use clearance-grade laptops, let's not flatter ourselves here. Justified or not, Jari felt he needed a "professional" setup before he could get any work done and professional systems can be extraordinarily elaborate.


How many "essential" saunas did Hans Zimmer buy with other people's money before he decided he was ready to finish an album?


----------



## Dr. Caligari

I just don't understand the need for so many tracks of orchestration. That's not what makes a good song.


----------



## Dayn

I got a fancy new computer over a month ago that can rip through VSTs and sample libraries like nothing. I've currently not recorded any proper music with it, yet my 7-year-old computer did the job despite the difficulties.

Maybe I should start a Patreon? That's probably what's missing, not my lack of motivation. Or I could fill it with a new amp sim.


----------



## John

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I've watched far too many Kickstarter Crap episodes to believe this is anything other than a badly thought out e-beggar trying to score some shit for free and provide little value to the people funding this.



At this point, is it worth trolling them into making more new stuff? It worked in regards to Corelia back in 2020, granted they left it half-baked mixes.


----------



## p0ke

TedEH said:


> Just spotted the thread title change.  Very nice.


Agreed. It's perfect.


----------



## Edika

TedEH said:


> Just spotted the thread title change.  Very nice.


I saw that too! I've always loved the sense of humor this forum has, from members to mods!


----------



## works0fheart

The best part about bumps to this thread is the one dude who will inevitably come back here to defend him when he reads his delusions being questioned.

I feel bad for Kai and Teemo. Those dudes are some of the most prolific musicians in the world and their reputation is going to end up ruined alongside Jari.


----------



## Kovah

works0fheart said:


> I feel bad for Kai and Teemo. Those dudes are some of the most prolific musicians in the world and their reputation is going to end up ruined alongside Jari.


Kai and Jukka are in Nightwish and I'm not even sure they're still members of Wintersun (according to wikipedia and metal archives they are) so they are probably fine. Can't remember if Asim got kicked or left. In both cases he won't be associated to Jari anymore.

Not sure what Teemu's up to though.


----------



## Metropolis

works0fheart said:


> The best part about bumps to this thread is the one dude who will inevitably come back here to defend him when he reads his delusions being questioned.
> 
> I feel bad for Kai and Teemo. Those dudes are some of the most prolific musicians in the world and their reputation is going to end up ruined alongside Jari.



I didn't see any delusions at this time. I just commented how stupid people's reactions are again. Which is why this thread has such a headline. I don't know if it's great or cringy.


----------



## TedEH

Metropolis said:


> I don't know if it's great or cringy.


I like to think it's one because of the other.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Kovah said:


> Kai and Jukka are in Nightwish and I'm not even sure they're still members of Wintersun (according to wikipedia and metal archives they are) so they are probably fine. Can't remember if Asim got kicked or left. In both cases he won't be associated to Jari anymore.
> 
> Not sure what Teemu's up to though.



They have a dream metal gig playing with Nightwish and the band has a lot of touring to make up for after the pandemic. If Jari wants to tour again he has to work around Nightwish’s schedule which won’t be easy. I honestly don’t see them playing again with Wintersun and I can’t see then touring for a long time unless a new album gets the momentum going.


----------



## TheBolivianSniper

I just saw that post about the riffs per track and want to say my dumbass punk band's upcoming EP has 7 TRACKS PER SONG and at most 5 of them play at once. 

Obviously my music is lacking depth and nuance. 

(but guess what? I paid for it all myself, did most of it drunk, the rest of the band was drunk too, and it's actually coming out)

don't tell me I'm being a bastard, I know that already


----------



## KailM

Nobody would even be talking about this band/Jari if they/he weren’t capable of writing and playing objectively amazing music. That’s the real shame here.


----------



## j3ps3

KailM said:


> Nobody would even be talking about this band/Jari if they/he weren’t capable of writing and playing objectively amazing music. That’s the real shame here.


Objectively?


----------



## Lorcan Ward

KailM said:


> Nobody would even be talking about this band/Jari if they/he weren’t capable of writing and playing objectively amazing music. That’s the real shame here.



Yep. It’s the same as Al and The Haarp Machine or Keene and The Faceless. All three of these musicians write amazing music(or have the potential to write incredible music) and in the end us fans hold out hope that they will someday deliver.


----------



## KailM

j3ps3 said:


> Objectively?


Well, objectively might be a stretch. But looking at the first Wintersun album especially, it would be hard for a first time listener to walk away unimpressed by at least the technical proficiency, variety of song structure, and overall quality. Not everyone’s cup of tea, sure.


----------



## TedEH

People talk about it because the first Wintersun release was well received. It was good. It was novel for it's time. But it was almost 20 years ago - and nothing Wintersun or Jari have done since has come even close to breaking ground in the same way.

People talk about it because it's fun to talk about because of how ridiculous the drama is. It's absolutely not because Wintersun is some kind of musical genius. There are tons and tons of great musicians out there who are just as - or more - worthy of the attention for just being capable musicians.


----------



## MFB

TheBolivianSniper said:


> (but guess what? I paid for it all myself, did most of it drunk, the rest of the band was drunk too, and it's actually coming out)



Not sure that's the slam dunk insult to Wintersun you think it is?


----------



## CanserDYI

TheBolivianSniper said:


> I just saw that post about the riffs per track and want to say my dumbass punk band's upcoming EP has 7 TRACKS PER SONG and at most 5 of them play at once.
> 
> Obviously my music is lacking depth and nuance.
> 
> (but guess what? I paid for it all myself, did most of it drunk, the rest of the band was drunk too, and it's actually coming out)
> 
> don't tell me I'm being a bastard, I know that already


My 2007 powerviolence band's 13 minute 10 song LP with 3 tracks, vocals, drums, guitar/bass together, recorded on Audacity(hahaha): "Hold my beer"


----------



## MaxOfMetal

This is now the "How many tracks in your album/project thread." Proper name change if it takes off. For real.


----------



## TheBolivianSniper

MFB said:


> Not sure that's the slam dunk insult to Wintersun you think it is?



nah I know it's not, I'm just being stupid 

on a serious note, I've done some legitimate composing and even in a complete orchestral context with extra instruments like harp and auxiliary percussion I didn't exceed more than 60ish tracks, I really have no idea how even a symphonic metal band could have that many, or why an album would be worth all the delays and fundraising and just borderline weird updates and comments 

I watched his pickup shootout a few times and I really didn't enjoy the tones and the riffs weren't my vibe, plus I don't like symphonic stuff at all (keep the orchestra out of my personal life) so I was pretty in the dark about the band before this thread showed up

like at this point it's a joke, and just like every other thread I appear in that's a joke, I'm gonna make stupid comments, so that's all it is


----------



## TheBolivianSniper

CanserDYI said:


> My 2007 powerviolence band's 13 minute 10 song LP with 3 tracks, vocals, drums, guitar/bass together, recorded on Audacity(hahaha): "Hold my beer"



no that's a flex, say more


----------



## TedEH

I want to say I normally have about 15 tracks going per song at a time, but I've never really counted it that way.


----------



## GunpointMetal

TheBolivianSniper said:


> nah I know it's not, I'm just being stupid
> 
> on a serious note, I've done some legitimate composing and even in a complete orchestral context with extra instruments like harp and auxiliary percussion I didn't exceed more than 60ish tracks, I really have no idea how even a symphonic metal band could have that many, or why an album would be worth all the delays and fundraising and just borderline weird updates and comments
> 
> I watched his pickup shootout a few times and I really didn't enjoy the tones and the riffs weren't my vibe, plus I don't like symphonic stuff at all (keep the orchestra out of my personal life) so I was pretty in the dark about the band before this thread showed up
> 
> like at this point it's a joke, and just like every other thread I appear in that's a joke, I'm gonna make stupid comments, so that's all it is


He has that many tracks because he has incredibly poor project management skills. That's literally the only way that happens. It's not like Wintersun is doing Jacob Collier-level density in the harmonic structure of the music, either. Sure there's counterpoint and harmony, but most of it squarely falls in "stick to the key until the change" and general classical compositional rules. at 400+ tracks you'll be lucky to hear 30 of them as actual separate elements.


----------



## Metropolis

There's around 20-30 tracks playing at once mostly with the synths and orchestrations. 56 in the most track intensive part. It's not that much if you think how a symphonic orchestra has around 70-100 musicians.


----------



## Nag

I just read the tracks-per-part breakdown message a couple pages back, and all I can say is: what the fuck.

I'm sure Jari's Patreon cash cows got a _serious_ boner from that message.


----------



## Velokki

Metropolis said:


> There's around 20-30 tracks playing at once mostly with the synths and orchestrations. 56 in the most track intensive part. It's not that much if you think how a symphonic orchestra has around 70-100 musicians.



You're trying to understand and make sense of Wintersun...



...that's not the point of this thread


----------



## GunpointMetal

Metropolis said:


> There's around 20-30 tracks playing at once mostly with the synths and orchestrations. 56 in the most track intensive part. It's not that much if you think how a symphonic orchestra has around 70-100 musicians.


How does 70-100 virtual musicians turn into 400+ tracks? He's got to be literally making a new track each time an instrument comes in or he doesn't know how automation works or something.


----------



## brector

GunpointMetal said:


> How does 70-100 virtual musicians turn into 400+ tracks? He's got to be literally making a new track each time an instrument comes in or he doesn't know how automation works or something.


I am not a recording expert, but in an orchestral recording, they don't mic up each instrument do they?


----------



## GunpointMetal

brector said:


> I am not a recording expert, but in an orchestral recording, they don't mic up each instrument do they?


Absolutely not, lol, that's why it's even more insane of a track count. He sounds like the audio version of a kid putting all his LEGOs in one tower just to see how many LEGOs he has. Orchestras aren't even meant to be heard at the individual instrument level outside of soloists.


----------



## Edika

MaxOfMetal said:


> This is now the "How many tracks in your album/project thread." Proper name change if it takes off. For real.


I'll take the challenge!

In my bands album it would be about 17 to 22 tracks per song. 
- 4 tracks for rhythm guitars
- 2 tracks for solo guitars
- 1 track for bass
- 7 tracks for drums (if I remember correctly)
- 4 to 6 tracks for vocals 
- 1 to 2 tracks for clean guitars when on songs


----------



## nightflameauto

brector said:


> I am not a recording expert, but in an orchestral recording, they don't mic up each instrument do they?


No. In a real orchestra setting, professionally recorded, you may get two mics per section if the recording engineer is a fussy little bitch, or you may get two to four mics total for the whole orchestra, plus a couple reflection mics on walls for reverb in the mix.

MIDI programing instruments gets a bit weirder count wise because each "part" has to have its own "mic" or pianoroll or whatever you want to call a MIDI track. So I can see the count escalating a bit, but not to that point.

From my years of experience in a real orchestra, and my many more years being a home recording fuckwad with way more DAW power than I need.


----------



## Dr. Caligari

As has been said, an orchestra doesn't have that many parts and the harmonic structure of the music means the tracks are mostly just notes being doubled over and over again by different instruments. Then there's the problem that in a modern metal setting the mix is so dense that all these different orchestral elements can't be heard anyway.

I think if this is what he's trying to do maybe that's why it's taking so long. I don't think it's realistic to get an idea like this to work well. It's probably better to work on great melodies, riffs and song structures and let those get carried more by guitars and a few orchestral/synth elements when it fits.

I think after Time 1 the lesson should have been "maybe the approach on the first album was better" rather than "I just need to spend way way more time and computing power on this".


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## Velokki

Seriously, you guys are rationalizing and analyzing Jari's posts like he could have a point, or that his explanations would be interesting etc.

Can we make it clear for ONCE;
1. He's a total control freak, who has lost all sense of relativity. I know this from very close friends, I have many professional friends in the industry. He thinks he's got this genius that nobody else has, and only he can realize this magnificent vision. That leads to you even taking your own band photos and making shitty wallpapers alone. This leads to having Kai Hahto in your band, and you still deciding to _program drums_. If you have any proclivity to believe your own shit and smell your own farts, having 360K fans on Facebook and some diehard fans constantly touting "omg jari ur a god", he just might believe some of it. Actually, I think he believes most of it, but mostly disregards the haters.

2. He's always been a victim by choice. Just read the Wintersun website through web.archive.org. He used to whine about his Mac's RAM capabilities, software not being able to do what he wants to do so he'd need to wait for a new DAW update... Then it was noise from neighbors etc - he couldn't use the software and RAM because of noise from those damn neighbors! Wait... I wonder how he ever made the 2004 self-titled album? Perhaps software was better then, and his neighbors were quieter! Or wait, maybe he shoved his head really far up his ass during the following years after the self-titled. Yeah, that's the one.
It's no different than anyone who perceives mechanical things to be an obstacle in everything. It's victimism. What everyone of us can relate to, is guitars. Surely if you can't play something well, the guitar is to blame! Then you could get a Daemoness, Carillion, PRS, ESP, Aristides. Aand.... I have it on good authority that Jari has currently ordered several custom shop guitars from a certain trendy brand    Wait till you see it. It really makes this so much more funny.

3. He used to have 1200 tracks for Time 1. It might've also been 800, but I remember 1200. And Time 1 sounded like complete dogshit. The intro song was great, but other than that, the mix didn't work at all. You could hear when someone had completely lost all objectivity, and locked himself for prolonged periods of time in his own listening environment at an optimal volume, and thought that maximalism is the answer. And the result is a mediocre mess. The whole "I have a thousand tracks, look how delicate and impressive my work is, no one else can understand this"-saga is old in the camp of Wintersun.

Jari should have limits and deadlines by someone he looks up to. Having Devin Townsend say to Jari "You can't deliver an album in 30 days" and put him in a cabin in the woods to solely work on the music with a clear deadline. Then have Nolly make the mix when everything is finally recorded. I think we could have a great album.

But yeah, that ain't happening.

Aaand now we don't need to try to rationalize anything. We can return to the memes and hating.
P.S. I once considered really doing Wintersun sauna bath brooms (saunavihta in Finnish). Sauna brooms with a Wintersun logo. Perhaps I'll do them one day


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## MaxOfMetal

I don't know why folks keep talking about Wintersun in the Track Count Thread.


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## Mprinsje

MaxOfMetal said:


> This is now the "How many tracks in your album/project thread." Proper name change if it takes off. For real.


I had about 30 or 40 for a project I mixed and recorded a while ago. For most of my own demo projects it's about 8.


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## p0ke

Mprinsje said:


> I had about 30 or 40 for a project I mixed and recorded a while ago. For most of my own demo projects it's about 8.



Around 8 is pretty typical for me as well. The drums would be more tracks if they were actually recorded, but since I use a plugin and they're mixed inside they're just 1 stereo track.

For my band stuff I've sometimes had around 30-35 tracks because of different synth sounds being layered and backing vocals and harmonies etc.


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## mehegama

Sermo Lupi said:


> There's Jari's needs and then there's the sliding scale of what composers use in the music industry.
> 
> Here's an article on Hans Zimmer's setup from 10 years ago (2012). He had 2 computers for mixing, plus 14 separate servers with 24-64 gigs of RAM and 8-12 core processors for running the samples. Considering those specs are still impressive a decade later, I can only imagine what he's using in 2022.
> 
> Top studios aren't going to use clearance-grade laptops, let's not flatter ourselves here. Justified or not, Jari felt he needed a "professional" setup before he could get any work done and professional systems can be extraordinarily elaborate.


I totally agree with your points but I think we should never put Zimmer's name anywhere near Jari Maenpaa's. I cringe just seeing them side by side..


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## Veldar

I tend to have 20 - 30 depending, if you exploded any buses out it would be closer to 50, most of that tends to be drums though


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## Lorcan Ward

I thought this was a joke post in "Prog Snob" or "Djent shitposting"


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## GunpointMetal

Lorcan Ward said:


> View attachment 118612
> 
> 
> I thought this was a joke post in "Prog Snob" or "Djent shitposting"


All the time in the world to create content, but no time to finish the fucking record.


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## KailM

Got a kick out of this:


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## Leviathus

Nice EVO.


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## works0fheart

GunpointMetal said:


> All the time in the world to create content, but no time to finish the fucking record.



No dude, we just don't understand the genius that is Wintersun. The music is so complex that Jari needs constant breaks from even writing it to allow his mega-brain to recover from the stress put on it by writing such intricate music. There's totally no way that he's just riding on the hype of an album that should have been out well over 10+ years ago just to make consistent money.


Idk if there is anyone in the metal community that I respect less than Jari at this point. Straight up con artist.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands

*gets an official Solar artist endorsment*
*doesn't use their guitars*

 

(i'm not subscribed to his patreon so I haven't seen there lol)


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## Randy

KailM said:


> Got a kick out of this:



The comments


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## NoodleFace

He plays so good but something about his technique is very jarring, I can't put it into words exactly.


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## Neon_Knight_

NoodleFace said:


> He plays so good but something about his technique is very jarring, I can't put it into words exactly.


Perhaps it's the combination of bright tone, lots of staccato and a relatively heavy picking hand.


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## Neon_Knight_

works0fheart said:


> No dude, we just don't understand the genius that is Wintersun. The music is so complex that Jari needs constant breaks from even writing it to allow his mega-brain to recover from the stress put on it by writing such intricate music. There's totally no way that he's just riding on the hype of an album that should have been out well over 10+ years ago just to make consistent money.


This "I Can't Yngwie" video could be his way of telling us he needs a decade of guitar practice before he's ready to record the new Wintersun solos, because only a prime Yngwie could have played them well enough to do justice to their beauty and complexity. Crowdfunding must be needed to fly in Yngwie for private lessons, plus to build Yngwie a new personal sauna room.


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## NoodleFace

Neon_Knight_ said:


> Perhaps it's the combination of bright tone, lots of staccato and a relatively heavy picking hand.


Yeah that's probably it. I didn't mean it in a bad way because he's obviously very good. But his guitar videos are tough for me to watch.


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## Lorcan Ward

I always find it crazy when a player of that level has trouble with something. Winter Madness and Beautiful Death have similar passages to the Fire & Ice intro but are much harder to play. Maybe he’s just having an off day cause the dude is a monstrous player. Also nice to see someone play it correctly. 

Jari plays with the lowest action I’ve ever seen. The strings are practically on the frets. He uses light gauge strings and has a lightish but very controlled picking hand. I tried his guitar and every note fretted out. 

No matter what rig and guitar he always has his staccato pick attack. I agree it isn’t nice to listen to but on CD or in a live setting it pops out of the mix.


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## Neon_Knight_

NoodleFace said:


> Yeah that's probably it. I didn't mean it in a bad way because he's obviously very good. But his guitar videos are tough for me to watch.





Lorcan Ward said:


> I always find it crazy when a player of that level has trouble with something. Winter Madness and Beautiful Death have similar passages to the Fire & Ice intro but are much harder to play. Maybe he’s just having an off day cause the dude is a monstrous player. Also nice to see someone play it correctly.
> 
> Jari plays with the lowest action I’ve ever seen. The strings are practically on the frets. He uses light gauge strings and has a lightish but very controlled picking hand. I tried his guitar and every note fretted out.
> 
> No matter what rig and guitar he always has his staccato pick attack. I agree it isn’t nice to listen to but on CD or in a live setting it pops out of the mix.


A lot of metal guitar sounds great as part of a song, but harsh in isolation.


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## Metropolis

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> *gets an official Solar artist endorsment*
> *doesn't use their guitars*
> 
> 
> 
> (i'm not subscribed to his patreon so I haven't seen there lol)



He's been playing them like 4 years. And Solar endorsement is not too strict about what brand you can play, or show yourself with a guitar of another brand on stage or social media. Ibanez are from his old endorsement, Daemoness too. Dylan couldn't make the other guitars for him, so he backed off from that one.


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## KailM

To be fair to Jari, I don’t think he was going for epic *tone* in that Yngwie clip. Good to see a little humility out of him. Kinda shows how much of a perfectionist he is. If I could play like him on one of his bad days I’d be pretty content.


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## j3ps3

NoodleFace said:


> He plays so good but something about his technique is very jarring, I can't put it into words exactly.


His picking hand reminds me of this


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## NoodleFace

coul


j3ps3 said:


> His picking hand reminds me of this
> View attachment 118656


oh god, that's it


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