# Is Gibson/Fender Overrated?



## Goomba9 (Jan 13, 2006)

I think gibson is way too overrated, overpriced, and for the quality u get, its rediculous...

Fender is just the same, unless you get a signature Malmsteen, Mayer, or Johnson, it isn't worth it, (or if u get american custom shop), although they do have better entry level guitars....


Both are still overpriced and overrated.... what do u feell?


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## telecaster90 (Jan 13, 2006)

I disagree.


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## Scott (Jan 13, 2006)

I have a strat comming to me in the mail so I can't comment on quality until I get it.

Although I will say that while they may be overpriced for what you get, you are paying for the name. With a reputable name like fender and gibson, you pretty much get the right to overcharge. I mean, it's a business above all else.


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## dpm (Jan 13, 2006)

The answer is - YES/yep.
In relation to the custom shops, they are even more overrated. I've some complete shit come from both parties supposed master luthiers. The sigs are nothing special either.

OK, with that out of the way - bring on the flames


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## DecrepitMortality (Jan 13, 2006)

i HATE both fender and gibson with a passion. fender is basically unplayable because you have to have the action ten feet from the fretboard in order to bend without fretting out. basically they are made for playing blues type music. for single coil guitar though i do like their tone. there are exceptions as mentioned above. as for gibson, (epiphone you can just forget it they are crap), they make some OK at best guitars. they play alright, i dont personally like the fretboard. they sound real thick though. the only one i ever remotely liked was the custom model.


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## Jason (Jan 14, 2006)

yep they are ill stick to my cheap chinese knock-offs thanks you very much


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## D-EJ915 (Jan 14, 2006)

Mexican and Korean Fenders are really top notch though, I haven't really played an American/Custom shop one so I can't talk about those though. But as for the fenders fretting out, besides a Jackson DXMG, an American Tele had the second lowest action I've ever played besides on teh high strings on my 207 which is the lowest it goes, period.

As for Gibson, my friend's SG faded had a broken truss rod straight from the factory, at least the frets were good though.


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## Metal Ken (Jan 14, 2006)

Yes.
There's no reason for anything other than a Mexican strat from fender. i dont even want a gibon. I'd take a decent epiphone if they came out with something i want, but chances are slim to none.


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## Scott (Jan 14, 2006)

Damnit people I just bought a fucking strat! Say something nice!

(God damn Drew and his drinking with Chris)


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## dpm (Jan 14, 2006)

OK. At least you didn't buy a Gibson. Fender aren't bad at all. Consistent but nothing amazing. No real flaws as such. Which model?


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## Scott (Jan 14, 2006)

50th anniversary Deluxe lefty.
Now, I know that there isn't anything about the 50th that warrants the price compared to an american strat, other then the fancy additions such as the case, and the S1 pickups, which there are mixed feelings about, but lefties don't often get the chance to get a limited edition model of anything


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## Metal Ken (Jan 14, 2006)

Scott said:


> Damnit people I just bought a fucking strat! Say something nice!
> 
> (God damn Drew and his drinking with Chris)



At least you didnt buy a 50th anniversry lefty ;p


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## dpm (Jan 14, 2006)

I was just working on a righty version of one of those last week. Put a Tone Zone S in it and the usual setup & fret dress. It was a Strat.


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## Scott (Jan 14, 2006)

Metal Ken said:


> At least you didnt buy a 50th anniversry lefty ;p



indeed. instead I should look into a LP 

the only LP I ever played was an epi I found in a guitar store a few towns over. I horribly hated it. I like the look and the design and the likes, but the neck was absolutely horrid. Felt very cheap. I didn't look to see what model it was however.

If i did get a LP type guitar, i'd get an Ibanez lawsuit one. Im an ibanez whore


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## Scott (Jan 14, 2006)

dpm said:


> I was just working on a righty version of one of those last week. Put a Tone Zone S in it and the usual setup & fret dress. It was a Strat.



How was the TZS in it?


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## Leon (Jan 14, 2006)

overrated? sure.

all their guitars are crap? eh, i've played some good ones. i guess it's just personal preference.


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## Metal Ken (Jan 14, 2006)

Scott said:


> If i did get a LP type guitar, i'd get an Ibanez lawsuit one. Im an ibanez whore




+1


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## dpm (Jan 14, 2006)

Scott said:


> How was the TZS in it?



Big and ballsy, as you'd expect. Good jump in level up from the stock, not stupidly louder.


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## David (Jan 14, 2006)

Goomba9 said:


> I think gibson is way too overrated, overpriced, and for the quality u get, its rediculous...
> 
> Fender is just the same, unless you get a signature Malmsteen, Mayer, or Johnson, it isn't worth it, (or if u get american custom shop), although they do have better entry level guitars....
> 
> ...


I feel you are in need of enlightenment:
splurge and buy this guitar... learn Gibson's wicked-awesomeness:
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5081


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## bostjan (Jan 14, 2006)

well, hmm. i've played gibson les pauls that kicked butt (60's classic) and others that sucked balls (jimmy page sig). i feel that their workmanship is nothing compared to what it used to be, and they have fallen *way* behind the times. fender is almost as bad, but since their prices are lower, i don't have as much of a problem with them.

crap- no, but overrated- i'm afraid so. overpriced? -undeniably! for historical reasons, most people's first guitars are squires or epiphones due to the names fender and gibson, which i find very ironic.

but then i'm way more into having features and playability than owning a piece of history or whatever.

just my opinion


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## Lankles (Jan 14, 2006)

Gibson is horrendously overpriced, unpleasant to play with decent pickups. Here it will cost you $2000 for a bottom end Gibson with all the workmanship a fossilized turd could muster. They also call a flying v a "V-Factor" which is a mark of incalculable stupidity.

I like my Fender. It was cheapish and cool. Very playable and sounded great too when I Seymour Duncan-ed it.


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## Jerich (Jan 14, 2006)

they did build some of the standards for Guitars such as Gibson scale Fender scale but, alas they have only built the template for things Much more greater....they both make Inferior 7 's...... i rest my case....


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## b3n (Jan 14, 2006)

I really like my strat (mexican) and have no plans to "upgrade" to an american one. It looks, sounds and feels great.

As for gibson...I wanted an LP studio for ages then when I finally got the cash I went out and played a heap of them... and ended up going home with an Jem. Best desicion I could have made


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## Toshiro (Jan 14, 2006)

If I wanted a strat I would get an early 80's MIJ Fernandes, since they almost put Fender out of business. I don't care for the 'vintage' tiny-ass frets on the Mexicasters, they're well made though.

I can't count the number of American made strat/tele/LesPaul/SG I've seen with horrible fret crowning. Fender and Gibson are about name recognition, nothing else.

_(I'd like to see this american tele with super low action though, since with the neck radius Fender uses, really low action would fret out on every bend.)_


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## Vegetta (Jan 14, 2006)

I do not like Gibsons/epiphones at all. I hate Neck binding and really dislike the short scale. They are stupidly overpriced i would never pay what they wanted for a off the shelf Les Paul.....

Fenders suffer from inconsistancy- you could have a room with 50 US made strats several would be dogs, most would be mediocre, but a few would be awesome I can't explain it but to me IMO they have allways been like that.

Strats are one of my all time fav guitars I played them for years (well the ESP version at any rate) sooner or later I will get a 7 string strat . The real problem with strats is now ther eare so many different kinds Fender kind of watered them down


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## Digital Black (Jan 14, 2006)

I think you can still find a good fender for a decent price. Highway 1 comes to mind.

Gibson has always been overated and overpriced. Never owned one, proably never will. Though I can appreciate some of their guitars.


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## that guy (Jan 14, 2006)

on both guitars your just paying for the names 
fender =hendrix
gibson=anyone withtoo much money and not enough stuff


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## Metal Ken (Jan 14, 2006)

Sephiroth000 said:


> I think you can still find a good fender for a decent price. Highway 1 comes to mind.
> 
> Gibson has always been overated and overpriced. Never owned one, proably never will. Though I can appreciate some of their guitars.



Actually, i prefer the Lite Ash strat to the highway one. Its the same price and has better hardware, but its made in Korea.


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## grimmchaos (Jan 14, 2006)

DecrepitMortality said:


> i HATE both fender and gibson with a passion. fender is basically unplayable because you have to have the action ten feet from the fretboard in order to bend without fretting out. basically they are made for playing blues type music.



So Iron Maiden was a blues band? 

On this whole subject, as far as I'm concerned, neither are overpriced nor overrated. Some people would prefer to play a Gibson or a Fender as opposed to a Ibanez or some other import shredder guitar. People like Buddy Guy and Eric Clapton must not know what they were doing when they choose to play a Fender Strat. BB King must have had a brain fart when playing his Gibsons. John Sykes too. But then again, what do I know, I own 3 Gibsons currently, so you could lump me in with them too. 

If a certain guitar speaks to you and becomes a part of you, then in my mind it is worth it, no matter what the price tag may be. Just because someone is willing to play $2500 for a Gibson Les Paul Custom doesn't mean they are stupid. Yes you are paying for the name to an extent since both of these manufacturers have been around for a long time, and many greats have played them, but I've still yet to play a guitar that sounds or feels like my LPC. Sure, maybe you guys don't care for them, but that doesn't make them overrated or overpriced, especially when someone is willing to pay the price to own one. I personally don't like Ibanez necks, so I choose not to play or own them. But you won't hear me calling them a piece of shit.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Metal Ken (Jan 14, 2006)

2500$, No. But when you see ones going for 3500-5000$, then yes. 
People like Buddy Guy and Eric Clapton played those guitars cause in the 60s & 70s, cause there pretty much wasnt anythign else that was quality. Same with BB , John Sykes, etc. 

And just cause a guitar is import doesnt make it anything less. And Ibanez has a lot more than just shred guitars. Ever try a Pat Metheny model or a George Benson Model?


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## Shannon (Jan 14, 2006)

Overated? 
Nah, not really. Every guitar serves a purpose. But, considering that 90% of the guitars in the world are based on the Strat and LP, they really can't be considered overated.

Overpriced?
YOU BET THEY ARE. How the hell can they charge $10000+ for a Strat/LP & then charge under $500 for _slightly_ toned-down model. The pricing makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.


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## grimmchaos (Jan 14, 2006)

I didn't mean that import = crap. I've played some awesome imports in my time. The Ibanez SZ520 for one - sort of a marriage between a PRS and an Ibanez. Some of the Jackson imports I've played over the years were great too. I also used to own an Ibanez RG550, 470, a 7620 and a 7621. But I gradually went away from them because I wasn't comfortable with them. 

And Ibanez/ESP/other manufacturers have their fair share of expensive guitars, so it is not like they are exempt from being included in the "overpriced" category. 

The US labor market is also more expensive as well. So generally US made guitars carry a higher premium, even if they play worse than their import counterparts. And Gibson these days does have some crappy quality control - fretwork and finishing vary hugely between different guitars from all price ranges. They also need to take a serious look at some of their business practices before they end up down the tubes.


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## Vince (Jan 14, 2006)

Shannon said:


> Overated?
> Nah, not really. Every guitar serves a purpose. But, considering that 90% of the guitars in the world are based on the Strat and LP, they really can't be considered overated.



Yeah, I'm with Shannon.

You might think the guitars are overpriced, but they're at market equilibrium. There's a market for $1500 Gibsons, quite a large one, actually. They wouldn't charge such a high price for their guitars unless people were willing to pay that much.

Gibson LPs sound huge, but IMO they're awkward to play and feel unbalanced when played standing up. I love their explorer designs, and I think ESP really perfected that years later (Hetfield's guitars).

Fenders are cool studio guitars and you can get some great sounds out of the strats and tele's. They're distinct sounds that alot of other companies have tried to copy. Most of our guitars (Ibanez, Schecter, ESP, Jackson, etc.) are super-strat shapes, based off the fender stratocaster design and made more sleek.

Strats, IMO, are similiar to Rickenbackers. Not in their sound, but in their use. I would never have a strat or rick as my main guitar, but they'd be awesome sounds to have in my arsenal in the studio. I'm big on having a ton of different sounds when recording.

Let's not forget that Ibanez started out copying these companies in the 70s.


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## grimmchaos (Jan 14, 2006)

The guys I mentioned also have been playing up until this day too, with a good 20 years or so of different manufacturers coming into the market with quality guitars, so its not like they haven't had ample opportunity to choose to play something else if they wanted to. But they choose to play what they want (well, either they themselves choose or the $ makes them choose).


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## Shannon (Jan 14, 2006)

aldog1330 said:


> And Ibanez/ESP/other manufacturers have their fair share of expensive guitars, so it is not like they are exempt from being included in the "overpriced" category.



Sure, they have overpriced stuff as well...but here's where I think Gibson & Fender differ. Examples...

1) How many times have you seen Fender take a basic Strat, give it a new edition name (without any real defining characteristics deviating from a basic strat) & then slap an extra $1-2K onto the price tag? TONS OF TIMES! The 50th Anniversary edition rings a bell. It's just a gold colored strat! That's it! 
These are the same people who kick the shit out of a strat, call it a "Relic" & then charge $3K+ for it! That's insanity! To me, it's nothing more than a $200 pawnshop prize with a monster price tag.

2) How can Gibson justify adding $3-7K onto a flamed-top LP Custom's price tag when an LP Studio sits just over $1K. Does a flamed-top & fancy binding really warrant such a HUGE price hike? Or better yet, take a 59 Reissue, slap a Jimmy Page autograph sticker on its headstock & charge $10K. It's just ridiculous.


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## Drew (Jan 14, 2006)

I love it how threads like these are always started by new members.  

Eh, I don't personally like gibsons - I don't care for mahogany, I don't like the shorter scale, and I don't like the body design. Are they good guitars? Damn straight, and I've played some beautiful ones. They're just not for me (and they're fuckin' expensive)

Strats, on the other hand... I'm a strat guy at heart. I love how they sound, love how they look, love how they feel... My main guitar for years was a '97 American Standard. I never had any trouble with fretting out or anything, the neck was fairly slim and comfortable, and it sounded great stock and even better with silent Gold Lace Sensors. It wont hold tune under trem abuse to save it's life, lol, but I play it like it's a fixed bridge these days anyway, trem flush for dive-only. 

Are they overpriced? Slightly, perhaps, but there's good affordable options. They;re great guitars, though, and I absolutely love mine.

That said, if I was in the market for a new strat today, it'd be a G&L, Suhr, or Anderson.


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## Metal Ken (Jan 14, 2006)

I think the best strat i EVER played was a black Mexican fat strat, w/ maple board. It owned every single other strat in the store i worked at. Then i sold it to some dude. That guitar right there made every other fender obsolete to me. And it was 350$. And thats why i think the rest of them are overpriced lol.


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## Drew (Jan 14, 2006)

I'll also add that while Fenders and Gibsons are hugely popular, bashing them blindly is even more popular - they're the "in" guitar to hate, which I think is pretty stupid.


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## grimmchaos (Jan 14, 2006)

I can understand where you are coming from on the "reliced" guitars - I never understood why someone would pay more for a guitar that was beat to crap. It must be one of those cool things that people do. Put the damn wear and tear on your guitar yourself instead of paying someone an ungodly amount of money to do it. However, there is a market for it and people are buying into it so you can fault them for making more money for their business. 

I agree with you on Gibson's signature guitars too, they do charge a ridiculous amount for them so you can play something your idol plays. Some of the options are ridiculous as well - I saw a Gibson LP Standard that was a Custom Shop with a black quilt top used for $5000. Someone is willing to pay that much for it though, regardless of how crazy we think the prices are. 

I own a Les Paul Studio and a Les Paul Custom, and do I think the Custom was worth $1800 more than the Studio? Yes. The fit and finish of my custom is 10 times that of my Studio, and the Custom plays quite a bit better. The 3 ply binding around the body looks classy. The guitar just feels better, much like going from a Jackson SL4 to a US made SL2. I don't know how to put words to it but it just feels better.


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## grimmchaos (Jan 14, 2006)

Drew said:


> I'll also add that while Fenders and Gibsons are hugely popular, bashing them blindly is even more popular - they're the "in" guitar to hate, which I think is pretty stupid.


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## Richardscuro (Jan 14, 2006)

I can understand why people feel the way they do about Gibson and Fender. But my opinion is that Fender produces some of the best values out there. My buddy got a Mexican Tele that is just awesome. Their customshop guitars are amazing. Their american series guitars are solid as well. What it comes down to is proper setup. If a guitar is not properly set up then it isn't going to sound good no matter how expensive it is. 

Gibson has some of the worst quality control in the industry rightnow unfortunately. I know because I went through a ton of production line Les Paul Standards trying to find a great sounding one. They all sounded okay but the best way to go is customshop for a Les Paul. It is more expensive but worth it in my opinion. People should not knock a company just because their guitars are expensive and they tried one that sucked. Most production line guitars out there suck. That's why to have to go and TRY THEM OUT BEFORE YOU BUY.


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## Chris (Jan 14, 2006)

I've never been a big Gibson fan, but my buddy Pete has an older model LP that absolutely sings. Not my cup of tea overall, but I wouldn't hate to own one.

As far as Fender, strats will always decimate.


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## Chris (Jan 14, 2006)

Richardscuro said:


> I can understand why people feel the way they do about Gibson and Fender. But my opinion is that Fender produces some of the best values out there. My buddy got a Mexican Tele that is just awesome. Their customshop guitars are amazing. Their american series guitars are solid as well. What it comes down to is proper setup. If a guitar is not properly set up then it isn't going to sound good no matter how expensive it is.
> 
> Gibson has some of the worst quality control in the industry rightnow unfortunately. I know because I went through a ton of production line Les Paul Standards trying to find a great sounding one. They all sounded okay but the best way to go is customshop for a Les Paul. It is more expensive but worth it in my opinion. People should not knock a company just because their guitars are expensive and they tried one that sucked. Most production line guitars out there suck. That's why to have to go and TRY THEM OUT BEFORE YOU BUY.



[hijack]
What's up with your band dude?  You guys have an album out yet? I fucking love the Jukebox tune.
[/hijack]


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## The Dark Wolf (Jan 14, 2006)

Everyone else has thrown their hat into this ring, so why not me?

Basically, what Shannon said. Both tend to be pretty decent guitars, but can be overpriced (strictly based on what you get compared to what you pay for it compared to other companies). I think Gibson is more guilty of this, especially recently, maybe to compete with PRS, perhaps.

See, I haven't played too many new Gibson or Strats in the last 10 years or so, so I'm not totally sure. Back 10 years ago or so, the Gibsons weren't nearly so insanely priced, with the exception of the re-issues. Ditto on Strats... in fact, they tended to be a bit higher priced at times. But anymore, I don't really look/play electric guitars at stores (I play acoustics all the time if I go, though), since I've never, ever seen anything at a store to really come close to my RG2027 (in terms of playability, tone, versatility, etc.) except maybe a Parker, but I'm only interested in 7's.

But, I like most all of the Gibsons I've played, especially the Les Pauls, and I really, really like Strats. I've seen some stinkers, but also some surprisingly nice ones. Like Drew, I love the way they feel, play, and sound. 

So, overrated? Probably not. Overpriced? Probably, even if the market will fetch it. Name brand mark-up. You can typically get a comparable or better guitar for less.


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## Shannon (Jan 14, 2006)

Metal Ken said:


> I think the best strat i EVER played was a black Mexican fat strat, w/ maple board. It owned every single other strat in the store i worked at. Then i sold it to some dude. That guitar right there made every other fender obsolete to me. And it was 350$. And thats why i think the rest of them are overpriced lol.



See? I'm with you. I've played some fantastic Mexi Strats. In essence, they aren't much different from a $2K strat. 



Drew said:


> I'll also add that while Fenders and Gibsons are hugely popular, bashing them blindly is even more popular - they're the "in" guitar to hate, which I think is pretty stupid.


Well sure it's popular, but no more popular than the traditional Strat/LP players bashing on other guitar makers. It's all relative. In my case, I'm not bashing on the instruments themselves. Rather, I'm blown away by how wildly the price gauge swings on guitars models with little-to-no differences in accountrements that justify the huge price hikes. $10K LP vs. $1K LP. Is there really $9K difference in craftsmenship, hardware, aestetics, etc.? Nope. I've played some well setup Epi LPs that killed custom shop Gibson LPs. No bullshit. 



aldog1330 said:


> I never understood why someone would pay more for a guitar that was beat to crap. However, there is a market for it...
> 
> I agree with you on Gibson's signature guitars too, they do charge a ridiculous amount for them so you can play something your idol plays. Someone is willing to pay that much for it...


I KNOW "there's a market for it." They are a business & it's their jobs to pimp their product to make it look irresistable to the customer....even if it's just a re-hashed model with a new higher price tag. 



aldog1330 said:


> I own a Les Paul Studio and a Les Paul Custom, and do I think the Custom was worth $1800 more than the Studio? Yes. I don't know how to put words to it but it just feels better.


With a few extra shiny features & a higher price tag, most of us get duped into thinking we have a better, higher-quality axe. 
When I look at a price tag, I think of "playability & functionality" as the most important feature. If I find the same guitar with an added flamed-top, I'm not gonna pays an extra $2K for it. $2K added on for aestetics? Fuck that! Case in point...
In 97, I bought my first UV7BK (the all black one) for $1450. 6 months later, out comes the new RG7620s for about $900. The only difference between these 2 guitars was the UV had a middle pickup & a pickguard. Does that justify an extra $550? Nope. I sold the UV for $1400 & bought a new RG7. With the money leftover, I customized the RG7 to the point where it would slay any UV in it's path.


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## grimmchaos (Jan 14, 2006)

Shannon said:


> Well sure it's popular, but no more popular than the traditional Strat/LP players bashing on other guitar makers. It's all relative. In my case, I'm not bashing on the instruments themselves. Rather, I'm blown away by how wildly the price gauge swings on guitars models with little-to-no differences in accountrements that justify the huge price hikes. $10K LP vs. $1K LP. Is there really $9K difference in craftsmenship, hardware, aestetics, etc.? Nope. I've played some well setup Epi LPs that killed custom shop Gibson LPs. No bullshit.
> 
> With a few extra shiny features & a higher price tag, most of us get duped into thinking we have a better, higher-quality axe.
> When I look at a price tag, I think of "playability & functionality" as the most important feature. If I find the same guitar with an added flamed-top, I'm not gonna pays an extra $2K for it. $2K added on for aestetics? Fuck that! Case in point...
> In 97, I bought my first UV7BK (the all black one) for $1450. 6 months later, out comes the new RG7620s for about $900. The only difference between these 2 guitars was the UV had a middle pickup & a pickguard. Does that justify an extra $550? Nope. I sold the UV for $1400 & bought a new RG7. With the money leftover, I customized the RG7 to the point where it would slay any UV in it's path.



I never bashed imports, but rather came into this trying to explain my opinion that you need to find the guitar that speaks to you and play it, regardless of price or location manufactured. 

You also seem to think that I don't know the difference quality and playability wise between my two Les Pauls and that because I paid more for one than the other than it must be better. I've played a ton of Les Pauls, ranging from low end Epiphones up to Gibson ZW LPC's, and mine is the best I've ever played bar none. So why can't I say that it was worth the $2000 more to me? Your opinion is no more correct nor incorrect than mine is - it is just that, an OPINION! All I'm saying is keep an open mind and what is good for you isn't necessarily what is good for others. I'm gonna play my LPC and Soloist knowing they were worth every penny to me.


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## Chris (Jan 14, 2006)

Hating LP's is so last season anyhow. Schecter hate is the way of the future.


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## Richardscuro (Jan 14, 2006)

Chris said:


> [hijack]
> What's up with your band dude?  You guys have an album out yet? I fucking love the Jukebox tune.
> [/hijack]



Thanks Chris. Unfortunately, Chiaroscuro is pretty much out of commission. I still record occasionally with a couple of the members but, only the drummer and I were interested in keeping up a consistent rehearsal schedule. It killed me that I could not keep that group together anymore since we have been a band for probably close to 8 years.

I have started a new group tentatively called Dread Affect that is a little more straight forward. The new group has a lot of similarities to Chiaroscuro and hopefully we will have a couple of rough cuts online soon. I will let you know.


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## Chris (Jan 14, 2006)

Richardscuro said:


> Thanks Chris. Unfortunately, Chiaroscuro is pretty much out of commission. I still record occasionally with a couple of the members but, only the drummer and I were interested in keeping up a consistent rehearsal schedule. It killed me that I could not keep that group together anymore since we have been a band for probably close to 8 years.
> 
> I have started a new group tentatively called Dread Affect that is a little more straight forward. The new group has a lot of similarities to Chiaroscuro and hopefully we will have a couple of rough cuts online soon. I will let you know.



Ah man, that's unfortunate. Glad to hear you have something already in the works though.  Do you have any Chiaroscuro tracks other than Singularity available at all?


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## Mastodon (Jan 14, 2006)

Chris said:


> Hating LP's is so last season anyhow. Schecter hate is the way of the future.



Yeah Scheters are totally for fags...


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## distressed_romeo (Jan 14, 2006)

My, aren't we having fun...


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## Shannon (Jan 14, 2006)

aldog1330 said:


> I never bashed imports, but rather came into this trying to explain my opinion that you need to find the guitar that speaks to you and play it, regardless of price or location manufactured.
> 
> You also seem to think that I don't know the difference quality and playability wise between my two Les Pauls and that because I paid more for one than the other than it must be better. I've played a ton of Les Pauls, ranging from low end Epiphones up to Gibson ZW LPC's, and mine is the best I've ever played bar none. So why can't I say that it was worth the $2000 more to me? Your opinion is no more correct nor incorrect than mine is - it is just that, an OPINION! All I'm saying is keep an open mind and what is good for you isn't necessarily what is good for others. I'm gonna play my LPC and Soloist knowing they were worth every penny to me.



No. I wasn't bashing on you on your choices. It's just the way I see it, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I'm sorry if it came off a little strange. I was on 1 hour of sleep and stuck at work when I wrote that. I guess I was a bit cranky. It's all good, man.


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## LordOVchaoS (Jan 14, 2006)

Considering you can get a custom whateverthefuckyouwant for less than most gibson and fender production models that won't be quite as good...

the answer is yes.


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## LordOVchaoS (Jan 14, 2006)

...and let's not even start talking about Agiles...

Ok, one comment. Most people I've heard of that bought a $300 or so Agile and replaced the pups liked it better than any Gibson they've laid hands on.


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## The Dark Wolf (Jan 15, 2006)

Chris said:


> Hating LP's is so last season anyhow. Schecter hate is the way of the future.


I've yet to play a shitty Schecter.  If they made a piezo 7, my Ibanez would probablky have competition. And I've never even seen or played a C-7 Blackjack or Hellraiser in person. Damn my Toledo Guitar Center. They never even have _any_ 7's. 

(I bet Mars woulda carried 'em, eh Eric?  Mars had _tons_ of sweet Schecters, some really nice Les Pauls, and some real good Mexi and USA Custom Strats.)

BTW, Shannon, you rock. What a positive demeanor you have and what a gentlemanly way to respond to make sure our forum friends have a positive experience. Kudos. Just goes to show you... this board is _different_.


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## Karl Hungus (Jan 15, 2006)

Overrated? No. Overpriced? Yes.

I'm not one to rag on a Strat or a Les Paul, because those two guitars, not only being the most iconic guitars there are, but there are just certain sounds you can only get from those guitars. A Strat has a very unique kind of sound, and so has an LP.

I want one of each. But of course, what with them being insanely overpriced, what's a fellow to do? Buy Japanese! That's what! Seriously, Fender Japan quality would beat that of Fender USA, and it's not overpriced. And I'm looking to get myself a Tokai Les Paul, quite simply because they're actually meant to be better than the original Gibson Les Pauls. Japanese quality is great, and you pay a reasonable price for it. No "Relic" price hike or anything, you just get a great instrument.

That said, I played the Korean Lite Ash Strat, and I'd just as soon buy that. Korean made guitars are really seeming to go up in quality these days.


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## halfdeadhippo (Jan 15, 2006)

I agree with the Big Lebowski fan above me. Les Pauls and Strats aren't exactly my thing, but I've got an SG, and it's one of the most comfortable guitars I've ever played.


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## Shannon (Jan 15, 2006)

LordOVchaoS said:


> Ok, one comment. Most people I've heard of that bought a $300 or so Agile and replaced the pups liked it better than any Gibson they've laid hands on.



^ ...and that's pretty much what I was getting at with my previous comments. It is ironic that you bring this up though. Donnie & I went to GC last Thursday & they had a used Agile LP mixed in with the Gibson/Epi LPs. Just to satisfy my curiousity, I did an A/B comparison between the guitars. I would defy you to feel any difference in playability. Hell, even the Agile finish was killer. 

I guess the days of me spending enormous amounts of cash on gear are over. No harm, no foul. With the rise in quality control on low-to-mid priced instruments, there are many alternative manufacters making affordable instruments that easily match, and sometimes exceed, the more expensive brands. But hey, if you've got the $$$, more power to ya.


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## Shannon (Jan 15, 2006)

The Dark Wolf said:


> BTW, Shannon, you rock. What a positive demeanor you have and what a gentlemanly way to respond to make sure our forum friends have a positive experience. Kudos. Just goes to show you... this board is _different_.



Well shickledeefuzzletits...thanks. 
I understand that sometimes my bluntness comes off as sounding rude on the net, even if it's not intended to be. I love a good debate as much as the next guy, but there's no need to get nasty & I didn't want my comments to be miscontrued that way.

I'm a nice guy. Honest.


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## jufob (Jan 16, 2006)

My Gibson Explorer and Fender Strat could only take me so far for which I am grateful...and they helped get me here; being able to play my Washburn, Dean, and DeArmond 7's.


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## Drew (Jan 16, 2006)

Shannon said:


> Well sure it's popular, but no more popular than the traditional Strat/LP players bashing on other guitar makers. It's all relative.



Yeah, I suppose their fans don't do them any favors... :/

To add another update to this thread... I played a korean "natural ash" strat from '04 in a used music shop just up the street from me. I didn't plug it in or anything, but just messed around playing it acoustically for a while. Satin quilted neck, abalone dot inlays, nice grain on the tinted natural finish body, decent-enough 2-point bridge, and while the frets were JUST too small for my tastes, the fretwork actually seemed pretty good. Someone had swapped the neck and middle stock pickups for Seymour Duncans, too. They wanted $450 for it, and I think I'll be paying them a visit later this week to try the thing amped up. Korean or not, that guitar played and felt (and looked) VERY nice. It weighed a ton, too - I guess that's not ideal in an ash body, but it still seemed pretty resonant, so I'm curious how it sounds plugged in. The only guitar in the shop that could keep up with that one was an older but well maintained G&L Tele, and thay was about twice the price.


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## Chris (Jan 16, 2006)

This is what my buddy pete has, though his is probably at least a dozen years old:

Les Paul Studio Light.

It's not a burst, it's solid red and not quit the exact body style in that link if I recall correctly. It's a fantastic, great feeling guitar with all sorts of tone and one of the most comfortable necks I've ever played on.


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## Sandro67 (Jan 17, 2006)

I think Gibson and Fender are definitely over played. Its not that I don't think Fender/Gibson players don't have talent, its just that I usually find them boring. Instead of finding their own unique sound, everyone just wants to play a Gibson Les Paul with a Marshall amp.


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## bostjan (Jan 17, 2006)

you guys make several good points.

i've tried many gibson les pauls and i love the pre 1970's les pauls. i have never played a new one i would consider buying. the telecaster was a huge breakthrough in guitar technology and the strat was probably the best follow-up so far (making electric guitar light and ergonomic was an awesome idea), but i haven't seen a cool new guitar design from fender in a couple decades. the stratacoustic? come on, what was that? and the real reason people hate gibson so much is that absolutely stupid jimmy page les paul.

i tried two of them, both were nothing short of junk. both guitars needed severe fretwork straight from the factory. the jackplate is a piece of sheetmetal rivetted into the guitar. $10k, come on, what is that? i could go to the lumberyard and buy a plank of cheap mahogany, veneer a beautiful micron-thick piece of maple on top, and write 'jimmy page' on it with a magic marker for about $40.

name twenty cool new guitars to come out in the last twenty years. any of them gibson or fender? not on my list. expand the list back to prehistory and it would, though. in fact, name one decent seven string that either company makes right now and i'll take back everything bad i ever said about the current line of products from that company.

actually, if fender did a japanese seven-string version of the yngwie strat with noiseless pickups for a reasonable price, that'd be a great strat er umm start.


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## Drew (Jan 17, 2006)

Actually, the Showmaster's pretty cool, but it's basically just a strat with a carved top. 

That said, yeah. Fender expects us to get excited when they do a reissue of a color they already did twenty years ago. Yawn.


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## bostjan (Jan 17, 2006)

Drew said:


> Actually, the Showmaster's pretty cool, but it's basically just a strat with a carved top.
> That said, yeah. Fender expects us to get excited when they do a reissue of a color they already did twenty years ago. Yawn.



ever tried the fender talon?! it was way better than the showmaster, but still short of other guitars from around the same time. i'm really quite bored with fender, and even if you like fenders, there are g & l guitars that are much better, although even more pricey. just as prs is to gibson, imo.


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## Toshiro (Jan 18, 2006)

You mean the Fender/Heartfield Talon guitars? If so, those were made by Fujigengakki, same as MIJ Ibanezs. Damn good guitars, but they came out a bit late to become popular(IIRC they were started in like 93-94, just as the hair thing was dying).

The Heartfield Elan guitars were cool too, an archtop set-neck strat with "American Standard Series" hardware.


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## Metal Ken (Jan 18, 2006)

Drew said:


> Someone had swapped the neck and middle stock pickups for Seymour Duncans, too.


Thats how they come, factory.

Also, showmasters are neckthrough & have 24 frets as well.
Aside from that, good point. 
Forgive me if this has been mentioned already, but:

Fender and gibson havent really released anything truely 'new' thats not a modification or a singature guitar in a LONG ASS time. you look at fender's catalog, its mostly filled with strats and tele's and custom strats and teles, and signature strats and teles. then, there's showmasters, Mustangs, Jaguars, Jagstangs, and about 20 pages of different Jazz & P-Basses. What new models have gibson come out with recently? Some signature models?

As much as you guys rag on Ibanez not coming out with anything new.. They came out with the RGAs last year, and the SZ's in '04, and have been changing up the RG line a lot. Schecter completely re-designed their whole diamond 7 string line in the past few years.. ESP has done some very innovative designs (Even if, only in japan). Fender and Gibson are still re-releasing guitars that they originally released in the 60s and 70s. Wheres the innovation? where the improvements? Granted, Fender has the S1 switching and whatnot, and now locking tuners.. but what else?


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## bostjan (Jan 18, 2006)

Metal Ken said:


> Fender and gibson havent really released anything truely 'new' thats not a modification or a singature guitar in a LONG ASS time. you look at fender's catalog, its mostly filled with strats and tele's and custom strats and teles, and signature strats and teles. then, there's showmasters, Mustangs, Jaguars, Jagstangs, and about 20 pages of different Jazz & P-Basses. What new models have gibson come out with recently? Some signature models?
> 
> ...
> Granted, Fender has the S1 switching and whatnot, and now locking tuners.. but what else?




my point exactly.

fender came out with new pickups that cancel hum and have a beefed-up sound, *and* fit in their guitars! now i'm sure neither dimarzio nor duncan nor emg ever thought of anything like that lol.


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## The Dark Wolf (Jan 18, 2006)

No shit, lol.


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## Drew (Jan 18, 2006)

Metal Ken said:


> Thats how they come, factory.



Seymor Duncan singles neck and middle with a generic single in the bridge on a Korean-made guitar that can't have retailed for more than $600 new? Seriously? On a strat, not a showmaster? I mean, you work at a guitar shop, I'll take your word, but are you sure we're talking about the same guitar? 

Good points re: Ibanez, Ken. Let's also not forget their semihollows they've introduced - they're making playable, respectable semis you can pick up for $400 these days. That's absurd. And the SZ's and (especially) the RGA's are hot, and I love the trans finish neckthroughs they've done recently for the RG line. And the ZR trem is by all accounts pretty damned cool. So really, it's just the guys looking for a pointy "metal" guitar with a double-locking trem who are getting left out to dry, and realistically even though there was a time when we were Ibanez's core audience, we're hardly a majority these days...

I think I'd forgive 'em for everything if they introduced a RGA7 with a trem, though - not so much because I'd buy one (probably not, mahogany isn't my thing) but because that'd finally be an Ibanez 7 on par with the coolness of the guitars Schecter has been doing of late.


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## Metal Ken (Jan 18, 2006)

Drew said:


> Seymor Duncan singles neck and middle with a generic single in the bridge on a Korean-made guitar that can't have retailed for more than $600 new? Seriously? On a strat, not a showmaster? I mean, you work at a guitar shop, I'll take your word, but are you sure we're talking about the same guitar?



Yeah, dude. They also have a telecaster like that.
Wait, i was slightly wrong:
http://www.fender.com/products/prod_images/guitars/0265002521_xl.jpg
It comes w/ 3 duncans stock. i thought one of them was generic. 

There's also the telecaster:
http://www.fender.com/products/prod_images/guitars/0265102541_xl.jpg


As far as ibanez, Their pointy shred guitars havent changed much, they just arent neon now, and have an extra "1" in the number.. The only thing in america we've regrettably lost from them is the RG1550. I'm sure they'll come out with some cool 7 before too long. they're one of the few companies, also, that makes an entry level 7 string (GRX70).


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## bostjan (Jan 18, 2006)

when i was in russia, every music store seemed to have at least one seven string. usually two, a cheap one and a midrange one. back here in detroit, very few stores have any seven strings. when ibanez started making the af207 (was that the model number?) and then the rg2027, i thought we were getting somewhere, but alas, both have been discontinued with no replacement to be found.

what has gibson offered as a seven string? i've seen pictures of weird one-off's, but i've never seen one for sale.


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## Drew (Jan 18, 2006)

Metal Ken said:


> Yeah, dude. They also have a telecaster like that.
> Wait, i was slightly wrong:
> http://www.fender.com/products/prod_images/guitars/0265002521_xl.jpg
> It comes w/ 3 duncans stock. i thought one of them was generic.



Yeah, that's the guitar. What do those things list for? It actually felt pretty solid...


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## noodles (Jan 18, 2006)

Drew said:


> Seymor Duncan singles neck and middle with a generic single in the bridge on a Korean-made guitar that can't have retailed for more than $600 new? Seriously? On a strat, not a showmaster? I mean, you work at a guitar shop, I'll take your word, but are you sure we're talking about the same guitar?



That is such a Fender thing to do that it isn't even funny. It is common on signature models (half of which seem to rotate in and out), where they will put Duncans on the top two, and some special wound to specs Fender p/u in the bridge. John5 has a setup like this, I believe.


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## Metal Ken (Jan 18, 2006)

Drew said:


> Yeah, that's the guitar. What do those things list for? It actually felt pretty solid...



I dunno the list, but i know the street price new was 579$.


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## Ancestor (Jan 18, 2006)

I like Gibson LPs. I would like to try a raw power. They're too expensive for me, though. 

I bought a strat used for 100 and put a couple of rails in it, then scalloped the neck. It's a nice guitar and plays well.

Still, I prefer SCHECTER!


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## Drew (Jan 19, 2006)

So $450's probably a little high, but if they'll go below 4...

Nah, I need a new 6 like I need a new hole in my head. It was nice, though.


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## Naren (Jan 19, 2006)

I'm not gonna get into the whole argument. But I love Gibson Les Pauls (which is why I own one). I also really like Fender Strats (not as much as Drew though). Are they worth $2000? Well, depends on the guitar, but in general, no. But you never have to pay that much for one. I bought my Les Paul new for $800 and it sounds awesome. Would I buy another one? Well, if I sold my current LP, I'd buy another one. Otherwise, no. I do need to have a Gibson Les Paul, though. Damn good guitar. I don't care what anyone else says.


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## eaeolian (Jan 19, 2006)

noodles said:


> That is such a Fender thing to do that it isn't even funny. It is common on signature models (half of which seem to rotate in and out), where they will put Duncans on the top two, and some special wound to specs Fender p/u in the bridge. John5 has a setup like this, I believe.



That would be "some special crappy sounding Fender PU in the bridge". Ove rhalf the Strat player I know seldom/never use the bridge PU, so they don't care.

If I were going after a "Strat", these days, I'd buy a G&L. Superior in every aspect, except resale value.


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## eaeolian (Jan 19, 2006)

Metal Ken said:


> As far as ibanez, Their pointy shred guitars havent changed much, they just arent neon now, and have an extra "1" in the number.. The only thing in america we've regrettably lost from them is the RG1550. I'm sure they'll come out with some cool 7 before too long. they're one of the few companies, also, that makes an entry level 7 string (GRX70).



If Ibby were to do a RGA7 or a S7, I'd probably be interested. Otherwise...


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## Drew (Jan 19, 2006)

Ditto, with a possible nod to Anderson or Suhr (a bit pricier, though). Every once in a while you find that one Strat that just owns, but barring that those three luthiers churn out some impressively good work. 

Now, if only Tom Anderson still built 7's... :-/


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## Scott (Jan 19, 2006)

My strat came today! it was detuned and I broke a string trying to retune it! WOO!!

What actually happened was the current pair of strings weren't wrapped around the pegs properly. Now im off to get a new set of strings.


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## noodles (Jan 19, 2006)

eaeolian said:


> If I were going after a "Strat", these days, I'd buy a G&L. Superior in every aspect, except resale value.



The shop that I go to for my lessons carries G&L. They are pretty nice, but every single one of them in the store gets smoked by my instructor's USA Schecter Strat.


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## jufob (Jan 19, 2006)

I am returning to my 6 string Fender Strat, the brand was good enough for Jimi, Jeff, Eric, etc. and it's lighter........NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Scott (Jan 19, 2006)

gooooood one.....


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## eaeolian (Jan 19, 2006)

noodles said:


> The shop that I go to for my lessons carries G&L. They are pretty nice, but every single one of them in the store gets smoked by my instructor's USA Schecter Strat.



He's got a couple of those, doesn't he? I've been really impressed by the one's I've played, but they're like shredder Strats, whereas the G&Ls are more traditionalist. Both good guitars, just different - and both much better than any new Fender I've picked up since they stopped importing the Japanese Fotoflame ones...


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## Metal Ken (Jan 20, 2006)

Ive played a few G&L's, they rule fenders sideways


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## noodles (Jan 20, 2006)

eaeolian said:


> He's got a couple of those, doesn't he? I've been really impressed by the one's I've played, but they're like shredder Strats, whereas the G&Ls are more traditionalist. Both good guitars, just different - and both much better than any new Fender I've picked up since they stopped importing the Japanese Fotoflame ones...



He just has the one. He plays it way more than his Yngwie Strat, or any of his other Fenders. He keeps bugging me to find him another, and when I do, he complains he doesn't have the money for it.


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## Drew (Jan 20, 2006)

noodles said:


> He just has the one. He plays it way more than his Yngwie Strat, or any of his other Fenders. He keeps bugging me to find him another, and when I do, he complains he doesn't have the money for it.



Hahaha, DrumCityGuitarland has a seven string verion right now... butt-ugly, or it'd already be mine.


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## eaeolian (Jan 20, 2006)

noodles said:


> He just has the one. He plays it way more than his Yngwie Strat, or any of his other Fenders. He keeps bugging me to find him another, and when I do, he complains he doesn't have the money for it.



Hmm. He had two the last time we played with them. Maybe he borrowed one?


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## noodles (Jan 20, 2006)

Drew said:


> Hahaha, DrumCityGuitarland has a seven string verion right now... butt-ugly, or it'd already be mine.



Do you mean that charcoal colored one? Yeah, that hurts the eyes.


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## Drew (Jan 20, 2006)

None other. 

Now, clean up the contours/headstock a little, add a maple board, and do a nice trans teal or something, and like I said it wouldn't be on that page anymore.


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