# Need advice/help. Is my guitarist being unreasonable? Or is he right?



## bstigen97 (Feb 9, 2016)

So, recently my band has finished up a few songs and has recorded one single. But one thing is that we haven't done any shows yet, we focused on having something recorded and ready before we ever went out and did shows. Now that we're ready to finally get out there we have run into a problem. Our guitarist is refusing to play any show except one at a professional venue, which our area is kind of lacking many of those. He claims house shows and what not are for no name bands who make it anywhere and he isn't going to play at any ....ty bars. Now our issue is that how the heck are we going to get anywhere without taking anything we can get honestly? He expects us just to blow up overnight it seems. Are the rest of my band and I wrong? Or should we not take "small time" shows and just expect to get good shows at good venues off the bat? Any contributions or advice is appreciated


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 9, 2016)

Homeboy needs to understand that you _are_ a no-name band right now. 

Is he a generous millionaire guitar prodigy the likes of which the world has never seen? No. Okay, drop him and rock it with one guitarist or find a replacement.


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## bpprox22 (Feb 9, 2016)

Play everywhere you can.

House shows and ****ty bars are my favorite kinds of shows.


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## Ill-Gotten James (Feb 9, 2016)

If you don't play shows, you won't get fans. The coolest show I ever played was at some bar that somehow was operating without a liquor license and there was only 30 people there, none of which were there to see the band that I was in. Your guitarist may not understand that the most fun your band might have at a show might be a no-name-venue. Besides, if you're not having fun, what's the point of being in a band? Tell your other guitarist to quit being a prima donna and be happy to play any show your band can score.


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## mr coffee (Feb 9, 2016)

You want my $0.02?

Take gigs where you must, at least at first. To some extent, you don't even need your own fans. But you do need to show that you can perform and entertain. These days, you have a lot of tools at your disposal. Do you have a .com? If not, get one, it's not expensive. Use WordPress or Joomla to build a site, it doesn't have to be super awesome, just somewhere to get your info out there. Establish your presence in the social media communities - get on FB and network. Friend and talk to other local musicians, rub elbows with local promoters. Get audio, video and photos of a few gigs. Small venues are fine, maybe even better because a large venue with a small crowd just looks empty. Edit minimally and upload to YouTube, ReverbNation, etc. Put together an EPK. Even if you don't have a lot of your own following, you can use this all to share with those promoters you've been rubbing elbows with. I know bands who are frankly not that good, but have been able to land gigs opening for major label headliners at venues like the HOB because they know how to play the game. If you do it right, it won't take long. If your guitarist doesn't want to play the game, it's time for a come to jesus meeting. If he has a solid plan to promote the band, cool, but if he's just being stupid, it's hindering your success as a group and he needs to either get on board or get out of the way.

-m


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## NicePants (Feb 9, 2016)

Even if your plans weren't to become super famous and play big arenas, how the hell would you even carry yourselves live in a big show if you haven't tested how you play at smaller ones first? Playing in a studio or practice session and playing live in front of a crowd are very different experiences. A lot can go wrong live, especially if you're inexperienced. It's best to get all your mistakes out and work out all your kinks in front of smaller audiences instead of embarrassing yourself in front of a large crowd.


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## Dana (Feb 9, 2016)

i have no answer, but i do understand why he doesn't want small shows. playing some ....hole in front of 3 people sucks. its a lot of work for little payoff.


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## Spectre 1 (Feb 9, 2016)

No work ethic = no success. 



Unless you have boobs.


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## Mathemagician (Feb 10, 2016)

He's not wrong for a band that's been building a solid base and playing out. But like, what makes him think you guys "deserve" those better shows? It's like holding out for a decent management gig after working 6 months part time. You've done some ...., but without connections or luck it's just not gonna happen that way. 

Hope yo guys can work it out. But if the whole band is on your side of this, you'll need to have a Coke to Jesus moment. And yo already have some stuff rotten/recorded. Shouldn't be that hard to the a replacement.


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## Hollowway (Feb 10, 2016)

Well, I say either give him the boot or trick him into playing those shows. Tell him you guys feel like you need practice for when you play the bigger shows, and want to practice your set, and audience interaction, etc, in those small ....ty bar shows. And just to have fun with it. If he still doesn't come around, tell him that you don't want to have a job that isn't fun, and if he's not going to let you have fun, then he has to leave. Live shows are FUN. There's nothing like playing live in front of people. That would be like saying, "yeah, there's this girl next door type that is into me, and I could have sex with her, but I think I'm above that. Instead I'm going to wait for a hot model, and then I'll have sex with her." The problem is that having sex with the girl-next-door type is gonna be reeeeeally fun, and if you have sex for the first time with that hot model, you're gonna give a pretty poor performance. So go play live.


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## GraemeH (Feb 10, 2016)

Playing live is a whole different mug of piss to rehearsing. Rehearsing is petting a bear in a zoo, gigs are kicking it in the balls then trying to survive wrestling it for 45 minutes.

If nothing else, gigs in .... holes playing to 3 people are how you check your gear can handle it, you can handle it, you can adapt when something goes wrong, you know the logistics of how to set up and tear down efficiently and work with a sound man.

If you are at all capable of playing without him I'd book the small shows and tell him he can come play or not, up to him. He either plays them and you learn, or he doesn't and you learn and shed yourself of a problem.


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## larry (Feb 10, 2016)

You have to start somewhere. Doesn't sound like your band has any sort of rapport with promoters in your region. Take any gig, then build up from there. The important thing is to be as professional as possible: be on time, courteous and crush your set. If your guitarist is unable to shake his entitlement issues, cut him loose. Be wary of how his attitude / behavior could evolve negatively and impact progress.

Try to record all your shows. If a girlfriend or parent is operating the camera, then 90% of the footage will be of their significant other or relative respectively. You've been warned.


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## mr coffee (Feb 10, 2016)

LOL I would think that would be the case, but when I had my wife running around with the camera, she got more shots of the other guys than of me! I was like, hey, wtf woman??? Hahaha...

For recording shows, I've found that some venues will get you a recording from the board, that's cool although the audio I've gotten that way has sounded brittle, aggressively gated and sterile with no crowd noise. My GoPro gets excellent audio, to the extent that I no longer bother with dedicated recorders like Zoom or Tascam.

-m


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## Josh Delikan (Feb 10, 2016)

He doesn't seem to understand that you need to play the smaller shows in order to get invited to the "bigger" or "pro" venues. You need to build up a local fan base, and you can only do that effectively by playing live. Either kick him into touch or look for a new lead guitarist; he's living in a fantasy world.


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## Beefmuffin (Feb 10, 2016)

Every band has to start somewhere. Doesn't matter how good he thinks you guys are, NO BAND ever starts out with playing professional venues unless someone in that band is already established as an artist or has ridiculous connections. Especially for never playing a live set.... You can record songs all day and not be able to play it live as a group. He needs to realize that you need to have experience and you have to EARN your right to play at a professional venue. Also, playing crappy bars and garage shows can be some of the best memories you can have as a band. Ever cram 100 people into a garage and only have about a 2 foot square to move around in while playing? Trust me, it's an experience that I'll never forget.


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## Ibycan7 (Feb 10, 2016)

let me guess, your other guitar player is lead.....

unless you guys have been playing in other bands and got together, and have enough of a following...you are by definition a no-name band...I had a similar issue with my guitar player (i'm lead) when an opportunity to play a gig at a dive bar would come up, he would always be like...man this is gonna suck....and we had to remind him that we all gotta start somewhere, and that live band chemistry needs to be built...which you can't get by just practicing together in a space.

but to answer your question: yes, he is being unreasonable, selfish, and a dumbass.. in my opinion.


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## mr coffee (Feb 10, 2016)

Even if you've played in other bands, you are still a no-name band. I got booked to open for Terror Universal last year, I couldn't give the tickets away. I told the promoter, nobody's heard of them, nobody cares about them. He said what, they ain't heard of Machine Head, Ill Nino or Soulfly? I laughed at him and explained to him that we're not opening for Machine Head, or I might be asking for more tickets rather than explaining why I was at zero.

-m


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## leechmasterargentina (Feb 11, 2016)

For the kind of description you give, I understand you guys must be 17 years old, maybe less, or at least that guitar player in order to have that kind of thinking. I'm 34 years old, and yes, experience does count. Logic tells me and anyone, like you, that how the hell are you going play at professional venues if you don't start from below?

I know some people aim high, that they want to sound as best as possible in each show, and I endorse that, I'm like that as well. But I also know that some things just can't happen from scratch. It's good you have some recorded material to sell or give away in your shows, but big venues, professional sound are meant for bands that have experience, sound well, or just have a pocket full of money to pay their way into those venues.

I remember when I started with my band that I wanted to do something unique in my town, that we actually rehearse and polish our songs, instead of getting drunk and high like many bands do. We did our first show in a bar, but a decent one in my oppinion, with a capacity of 300 and stage sound. We organized the show and we got a full house that night. In those days (I'm talking about 2008) there were only 2 bars taking 'no name bands' only. The one we played in, and another one which is a basement where no more than 70 people fit in. I remember I told the guys I never wanted to play there because the place sound like ...., sucked and well, it seemed like a step down from our debut gig.

Some time later, another band invited us to play there. I went and played, but kind against my wishes, and maybe I didn't enjoyed it to be honest. We started recording our first record, but we lost our bass player, took months to get a new one and get decent with our rehearsals. Time passed by and we wanted to keep playing. The bigger place where we had our debut closed and that was the only way to play pretty much. So we went for it and played several times there. Here you can see how small the venue was:



I can tell you from that moment on I began enjoying to play, even in that place, although it didn't sound as a professional venue, we had stage sound and it helped. So, after 2 or 3 gigs there, and since our debut, word of mouth and our effort got the band's name out there, so we got invited to Metal Fest which is a great event in our town. The best local bands, bands from other places of my country and from nearby countries come to play. You can imagine the picture, professional stage, professional sound, professional lights, we had our own dressing room, ...., it was great:



But there I began to realize something. I think our music is great and we have our own thing in my town, or country. But we lacked the experience of playing in such a big place, with that sound, with all those people. Maybe some people didn't notice, but I was pretty much stuck in the place, singing and playing, relying on my long hair and metalhead look, instead of giving a better show. I realized that a band is more than music when they play live. You have to entertain, and know how to do it. You have to be a little bit of an actor. Someone told me you have to build a persona on stage, which was difficult for me being introverted. Besides, we had our quota of mistakes that bands with more experience didn't have.

I write all of this to give you an idea of what it means playing in a professional stage, and that you don't just record a single, make some songs and get up there. I've seen some bands get there trough money and seen a bass player be stuck and play all the show giving his side to the public, and, to make it worse, not playing near as good.

Even if I mention all of this, it took us years to improve, give entertaining shows, make good songs meant for live shows, in all sense. We still aren't perfect (Who is?) but we keep playing, not a lot as we'd like, but we do get invited often to Metal Fest and I'm glad for it.

What I mean is kind of this; this is how you have to entertain the public, and it ain't easy. You have to know how to heat up the public and make it explode in the right moment:



I think my band has earned the right to play at these shows, and spread our name there, our recordings, our videos. That took time, and we would have done it if we had thought of "professional stage" from scratch. In all that time I learned a lot and enjoyed a lot the gigs as well. Maybe the only thing I never wanted is to play without stage sound. But it also depends; for example, if you're 15 year olds, playing at your friend's birthday without stage sound won't hurt. Take it as a rehearsal with friends. That's the only thing my band hasn't accepted (gigs without stage sound I mean) and we won't accept.

As I said before, I guess we've earned our way into good gigs, and lately Metal Fests are recorded in multi-track sound and Full HD video from many cameras, so we recently got to release our first live EP record, as well as 3 Full HD videos using the mixed and mastered sound of that show. 



If you ask me, it isn't cheap to get that kind of material and besides, you do have to have a decent performance on stage or mistakes will easily be noticed with the kind of quality of this recordings.

After our last Metal Fest we were invited to another gig, but in a smaller place, a bar. Well, the place is not that small, but it's still a bar with a small stage. Let me tell you I enjoyed it the same as if I was in a big stage. Maybe if you have the time to watch it all, I repeat again how important is to connect to the audience and heat them up, bring them to the front, make their arms unfold; watch the difference of our first songs and then the end of the show:



I know this is a long statement, but I just wanted to share my own experience, which it could be helpful for you and your bandmates. Putting together band isn't easy, and there are ....ty people, people that thinkthemselves as stars without having made anything, just as in the regular world. Maybe your guitar player is, or isn't, maybe he just wants to deliver a good show, but stages, people massively going to your shows, buying your records or watching your videos just don't come like that. It's hard work like any other thing in the world. And my band, which has been playing for 9 years now, we're not stars, we're not the best band in my country. We're known in the metal scene locally, maybe some dudes know us outside our city but just because of internet. I did have the dreams of being a big band in the early days. Call this being realistic, or pesimistic, but I think the days for that are kinda over. I mean, never give away your dreams, but things are not like in the 90's, when if you were a good band, you could get the record contract, your videos on mtv, tours and all that. Enjoy the music you make, each rehearsal, each show like if it was your last one. That's what I can say. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm not, but I felt I could give you an input on this.

I hope you can solve things with your guitar player. If not, well, look for another one which is more down-to-earth and keep playing.


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## CelestialWishDTC (Feb 11, 2016)

Funnily enough, I've experienced this sort of thing. My band decided to get something recorded before we start gigging, and it was honestly the best decision we ever made, but even with a fairly successful EP that we recorded with the drummer of an established Power Metal band, we had to start from the bottom. I'd say that now we tend to avoid the pub shows, as the big problem is that you eventually get the same crowd going to each show and it slows your momentum down, but without those shows, we wouldn't be where we are now. We would've have head the area's most established unsigned band email us saying 'We've heard great things about you live', we would've had our 'Crap, the backing track isn't working!' moments on a much larger stage, and we'd generally have a bad reputation. Luckily now we've ironed out all backing track issues (Hurray for Macbooks!), our singer has worked out the best way to make herself sound good live, we've all together discovered how to make our live shows tight and enjoyable. Plus, we sold loads of CDs in those smaller gigs and made loads of fans. It wasn't particularly glamourous, other bands turned up late and often the sound wasn't brilliant, but we were there, professional as we could be, working hard to play a great show every time we played a small gig.

Being in a band is a process, yes, I've seen probably one band that released a video on Youtube, had it go viral and jumped higher than most, but everyone has to have that new live band stage. The difference between the bands that grow and the bands that stagnate and 'go nowhere', as your guitarist put, will be in the quality. If you're willing to work, take on criticism and make music that people enjoy, there's absolutely no reason that you can't play professional venues with huge crowds at some point.


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## Rachmaninoff (Feb 11, 2016)

bpprox22 said:


> Play everywhere you can.
> House shows and ****ty bars are my favorite kinds of shows.



This.


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## BenSolace (Feb 12, 2016)

Hollowway said:


> That would be like saying, "yeah, there's this girl next door type that is into me, and I could have sex with her, but I think I'm above that. Instead I'm going to wait for a hot model, and then I'll have sex with her." The problem is that having sex with the girl-next-door type is gonna be reeeeeally fun, and if you have sex for the first time with that hot model, you're gonna give a pretty poor performance. So go play live.



I have nothing to add that hasn't been said, but that is a fantastic analogy!


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## jsmalleus (Feb 12, 2016)

Definitely try to talk some sense into him. The venue is not the most important factor of a show and the dive bar shows are fun. We played the middle of the bill at the Decapitated show last Saturday at the best venue for shows in my town, playing the 26th at the hole in the wall half a block away, guess which one I've been looking forward to more? (Nothing at all against Decapitated, they were f***ing awesome & really cool dudes).

People come to have fun at those places, the stress level is way lower, and it's not a big production so you connect with more people one on one and those folks are usually your biggest advocates. Not to mention usually you walk out with a little change in your pocket and a few free drinks rather than selling tickets and playing for free to help pay the touring bands' guarantee & gain a little exposure. Don't deprive yourself of those shows man. Divas be Damned.


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## bigboy (Feb 12, 2016)

The local bar is where the talking will start. The fans an new fans will be there. Playing small shows under 150 people is just fine. U can finish up an shake hands an maybe sell some shirts/cds an word of mouth is q big thing. Post pics to ya Facebook band page if u have one . It's a good spot to give stickers/cd's away an a few shirts. He should understand it's fun an a good feeling playing for a smaller crowd. An maybe free drinks lol


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## bigboy (Feb 12, 2016)

jsmalleus said:


> Definitely try to talk some sense into him. The venue is not the most important factor of a show and the dive bar shows are fun. We played the middle of the bill at the Decapitated show last Saturday at the best venue for shows in my town, playing the 26th at the hole in the wall half a block away, guess which one I've been looking forward to more? (Nothing at all against Decapitated, they were f***ing awesome & really cool dudes).
> 
> People come to have fun at those places, the stress level is way lower, and it's not a big production so you connect with more people one on one and those folks are usually your biggest advocates. Not to mention usually you walk out with a little change in your pocket and a few free drinks rather than selling tickets and playing for free to help pay the touring bands' guarantee & gain a little exposure. Don't deprive yourself of those shows man. Divas be Damned.


 I agree,pretty much what I just said. Less stress,an good to connect with local fans of the music u play. 
Ohhhh an woman that go with there girl friends. Yea good times an if u like to smoke yea another cool thing to connect with friends an new friends. It's a true passion of mine to get put of my comfort zone. I haz lol anxiety so having people in my face helps . So does pbr's lol


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## xwmucradiox (Feb 15, 2016)

If you play niche music like metal then DIY shows are your best friend. You want to play the house shows and DIY collective shows where kids pay $5 at the door and have leftover money for merch instead of shelling out $15 at the door and having to pay $8 per drink at the bar. I'm guessing your dude has no experience playing outside of band practice or touring. Otherwise he would have learned this immediately. You will grow a bigger fanbase in a shorter period of time by playing house shows every month than only taking the one opening slot every 6 months for a medium national act and having to sell tickets to get the spot. THAT is what makes you look like rookies. Taking control of your own destiny and doing more DIY shows and tours is the best way to get people to know your name.


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## Kryss (Feb 17, 2016)

playing for 3 people is a waste. you are better off promoting on youtube anymore or recording a lot of music to sell like buckethead imho. do a lot of early marketing and get a solid demo done for people to buy / share. you need to maximize time. I kind of agree with your guitar player. if you aren't making any money and playing for fans it's not worth the torment of moving all that gear from your practice pad. if you can use that to your advantage from time to time to get some awesome live footage you can use as promotion online it isn't a total loss though, which might be a good idea starting out. but imo you are better off focusing on albums and marketing yourself online to get more exposure. all of that costs nothing more than a web page and enough time to set up a few social media pages to get people sharing your name online.


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## VBCheeseGrater (Feb 17, 2016)

Dana said:


> i have no answer, but i do understand why he doesn't want small shows. playing some ....hole in front of 3 people sucks. its a lot of work for little payoff.



This is true but you have to pay your dues, and word of mouth from performances will make a big impact over a couple years.


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## xwmucradiox (Feb 17, 2016)

Kryss said:


> playing for 3 people is a waste. you are better off promoting on youtube anymore or recording a lot of music to sell like buckethead imho. do a lot of early marketing and get a solid demo done for people to buy / share. you need to maximize time. I kind of agree with your guitar player. if you aren't making any money and playing for fans it's not worth the torment of moving all that gear from your practice pad. if you can use that to your advantage from time to time to get some awesome live footage you can use as promotion online it isn't a total loss though, which might be a good idea starting out. but imo you are better off focusing on albums and marketing yourself online to get more exposure. all of that costs nothing more than a web page and enough time to set up a few social media pages to get people sharing your name online.



I see a lot of bands do what you're talking about and while its great advice to have a great EPK and lots of material and such, 9/10 times when it comes to playing in front of people those bands are terrible because they never took care of the 5-10 shows it takes to get used to playing live in a different room every night and not hearing everything like you do in practice. 

The point of playing local shows is also to make friends with the touring bands and give them a place to crash for the night in hopes that they will help you book a show when you want to tour and then return the favor. It is much more difficult to network if you are almost exclusively an internet band and think you're above playing shows for only a few people. 

Finally, if a band considers it a hassle to load up and go to a show and load in, then bail on them now or get them in shape. Load-in, carrying gear, etc... is a huge part of being in a band. Its one of the main things you do every day if you get to the point of touring. A guy that has a bad attitude about it when your band is barely getting started is ....ing worthless and shouln't be in your band.


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## GunpointMetal (Feb 17, 2016)

Go play crappy shows on dirty floors at dive bars and dorm basements. You gotta get your live show tight! Plus, its fun. It's fun to see people get wasted and stupid and sweaty and nuts. Doesn't mean you shouldn't do all that online marketing stuff, too... But I've seen a few bands now that were "recording projects" until they got enough people interested to headline a show and both times it was TERRIBLE. They're great live bands now, but you get great live performances with experience playing live, not by collecting 3000 facebook likes before you ever hit a stage as a band.


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## Kryss (Feb 18, 2016)

xwmucradiox said:


> I see a lot of bands do what you're talking about and while its great advice to have a great EPK and lots of material and such, 9/10 times when it comes to playing in front of people those bands are terrible because they never took care of the 5-10 shows it takes to get used to playing live in a different room every night and not hearing everything like you do in practice.
> 
> The point of playing local shows is also to make friends with the touring bands and give them a place to crash for the night in hopes that they will help you book a show when you want to tour and then return the favor. It is much more difficult to network if you are almost exclusively an internet band and think you're above playing shows for only a few people.
> 
> Finally, if a band considers it a hassle to load up and go to a show and load in, then bail on them now or get them in shape. Load-in, carrying gear, etc... is a huge part of being in a band. Its one of the main things you do every day if you get to the point of touring. A guy that has a bad attitude about it when your band is barely getting started is ....ing worthless and shouln't be in your band.



ya I know what you mean, there are benefits to playing often too but I think it is a lot tougher to get people out to shows too these days and I know in my area there are very few spots it seems to perform compared to 10 years ago. now a days you have to contend with everyone just doing Netflix or xbox live, economy has pinched a lot more people and so you don't get as many able to afford going out, then you have to contend with the police state giving everyone you know a dui which further keeps people from chancing going out. there are quite a few things like that that have changed peoples tendencies to more than likely go out to a show. I'm not saying it's impossible but it is definitely more difficult these days. not to mention most of these ....hole bars want bands in cities to pay to play which is a f'ing scam to me. I won't get into that whole big bunch of bs cause that is a whole another topic but ya. if you can find a great place to play and build up a fan base and do consistent shows at a few venues by all means that is a great thing to do, but bands also need to change with the times too. right now is a big transition time for bands/musicians thanks to technology and the whole industry is still reeling from old outdated methods. best advice is try to band together with some local bands and build up a good following though in areas so you can play live and when you can't devote time to your product aka your music and then everyone needs to help in promoting. word of mouth is still the best marketing tool and always will be to get someone to listen to you.


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## mongey (Feb 24, 2016)

playing live and being entertaining on stage to a crowd is a skill to learn like playing guitar . if everyone is experienced then yeah be picky about what you do. but if not then the more stage time the better 

you can play every snog perfectly but if your not putting on a interesting show no one will care 

If your playing to 10 people just treat it like rehearsal and have fun an dget experience. even learning how gigs, sounds guys, sound checks , others bands work is a journey that only experience will teach


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## 888 (Feb 25, 2016)

Your guitarist seems to think playing lower profile shows somehow smears your brand; it doesn't.


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## P-Ride (Feb 25, 2016)

That's like Conor McGregor saying, 'I won't take any non-UFC fights, I just want the UFC'.

He got into the UFC, because he rose up the ranks of local fights, then Cage Warriors (where he was world champion in two weight classes) and demonstrated his ability; learning his craft along the way, before being hired by the UFC - with a BIG fanbase already.

He had two losses pre-UFC, which are barely mentioned now - because he is undefeated in the UFC.

If your guitarist played any kind of sport, he wouldn't dream of saying something so silly and indulgent. Any kind of gig is practise, which will all contribute to your level of ability as a band, when you get the big gig. Any screwups you get.. far better to experience and move beyond them in front of a house party, than a huge crowd.

For example, I work in corporate sales now. But I spent my first year after university delivering washing machines, pulling pints and doing DIY and gardening for 18 months.

I heard other graduates saying, 'I won't take on any low-paid work'. Surprise surprise, none of them have good jobs now. Any CEO, manager or music executive will DETEST the presumptuous attitude of someone who is not willing to graft.

Basically, your guitarist's attitude is not one I have seen demonstrated by anyone who has achieved success in any area of life across business, sport or art. Total muppet. Buy him a few autobiographies of successful athletes.


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## Mangle (Mar 6, 2016)

Unless your boy is putting up the cash, is some kind of shredding savant or looks like brad pitt crack him upside the head and tell him to get with the program. If dude doesn't like to jam what good is he? How do bands make their money? Playing shows! This guy sounds like trouble. Has he written any of the kill riffs/hooks/lyrics? You might be carrying around some dead weight already partner.


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## jeremyb (Mar 6, 2016)

Feels to me like you guys have gone about it backwards, gigging first, album later, build up a following so you have someone to sell / give it away to


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## modman (Mar 7, 2016)

Get out and play those ratty clubs and have some fun. That's the best part of being a musician. Hard to get a following without playing out a while unless you have a lot of $$ backing you.


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## robare99 (Mar 7, 2016)

I agree with the others. Get out there, play wherever you can. Get the word out that you are a fun band, make friends with other bands. Work your way up.


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## Alex Kenivel (Mar 8, 2016)

Shows = exposure. More = more.


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## Mo Nodehi (Mar 8, 2016)

I'd say it depends on what kind of places you're going to play, and most importantly why? Are you going to play in a dive bar where you can barely fit your gear, for 5 drunk geezers who mostly listen to any other genres but yours? Then your guitarist is kinda right. Are you playing ....ty bars to practice your stage presence regardless of who is going to watch you? Then you are kinda right. Define why exactly you want to play shows at ....ty places, or any other place in fact, then see if you have good reasons, and see if you can leverage all the time, energy, and money that you're going to put into playing those shows, and if it still seems reasonable to play those ....ty bars, talk to your guitarist using all those reasons and facts and convince him. But remember just because "all the other bands" play any shows that they can get, doesn't mean you have to do the same, learn from other people, both their achievements, and mistakes. I don't mean you don't have to play, I just mean don't be biased on "what everyone does" being right, because most of the time "what everyone does" is the wrong way of doing things.

Also don't think that you have to play ....ty bars first, my band never played ....ty bars, we started from proper venues, because ....ty bars would not benefit us in any way. Though we had plans and strategies, we made relationships, etc. etc. before playing any shows. If your guitarist has a plan to do that, talk and listen to him, go over his strategy to see if it's going to work etc. Maybe he is right, maybe he isn't. Hope you guys can work it out and get the best results.

Mo


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## vansinn (Mar 8, 2016)

He could of course be right about hitting the real deal from the start - only, this happens to so extremely few, that.. pretty much forget it.
And I'll bet, were this to happen overnight, he'd .... and pee his pants on that Pro show, simply due to lack of experience in actually being able to handle the pressure of.. tada! *being the show*..

Fun, isn't it, that many known bands says the small shows are the best - because this is where they can really get the intimate contact with the audience..ing


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## Edika (Mar 8, 2016)

With the current state of the music industry you have to have not only a stage presence but an online following too you've got to work both and maybe by having a good online exposure and following it will reduce the amount of ....ty bars and no pay gigs you'll have to do. However playing live is a different experience than rehearsal or studio and you need to acquire that too. I've seen so called "good" guitarists freeze up on stage and just leaving on the middle of the song pissed off because they messed up or the sound wasn't good. Guess what everyone thought and who never played in a band again. Imagine somebody doing this in a good venue and not a ....ty bar.

Holloway I get what you're saying, I like you and I agree with a lot of your posts and opinions but that specific example was of really bad taste.


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## noUser01 (Mar 13, 2016)

Straight up, kick him out. No one knows you, you won't get anywhere by not playing shows, and no one is going to offer you good shows if you can't pull in a decent crowd because no one knows who you are. Anyone who doesn't understand something so incredibly basic is only going to be an anchor to the band.


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## Rizzo (Mar 14, 2016)

My opinion: it's 2016, you can do whatever you want.

Either you work on the online side of things and focus your efforts on building your own "brand" (so a consistent image,a good and well recorded demo, then a lot of work on websites, socials, and a constant following well-refined albums, etc etc, and you'll eventually get shows and-or get signed by some small label if you'll get to manage yourselves well enough in the long term...

...Or you just take the road pretty much everyone has been taking up to about 10 years ago, so you play shows, play shows, play shows, record albums, play shows, play shows, and more shows. And you'll evetnually earn a growing fanbase in the process.

Just talking in an abstract way. Either way, "it's a long way to the top".


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## 4Eyes (Mar 17, 2016)

cool, you got a record - it's nothing special nowadays, anyone who takes some time to study production is able to record decent record, especialy when band is tight. now, are you able to play same performance, or even better, live? 

I may not be the right person, I've never been in a real band, was a kind of roadie for a local band (friends), I toured with them for a few shows - the best one was in a bar, we had to wait for about 3 hours for main act who were suposed to bring guitar cabs that were meant to be used by other bands, loads of people left the bar, show started almost at midnight, everybody was tired..best part of it? All bands were profesional, even they were pissed off after whole waiting for "stars", and they did their job and played show for few die hard fans who've waited more than 3 hours for start of the show. 

Big stages are cool, but it takes also lot of work, effort and money to earn them and get there. None of the big acts jumped right on the big stages, they had to earn it. But one of my favorite shows are small ones, doesn't matter if place is top notch and there is good sound at venue - what makes show unforgetable to fans is band and it's performance. and I think that in a small club or bar band is more connected to the crowd then it's at big venues.

it's cool to have a record so you can promote yourself, don't underestimate social media do your job there and promote your band there, everything is ok with that, promoting yourself is big part of being in a band, but be also professional - take shows, even small ones and make it the best perfomence that people seen there, ever!

you play for other bands and very few people (up to 10)? show some support to other bands and make those 10 people feeling special, call it private show for them, enjoy, have fun! it's nothing worse then looking at band on stage that is bored.

also don't underestimate your gear - it's your tools to make your job, so make sure they're in best possible condition, use backing tracks if needed with effects, synths or additional sound layers...whatever that can take your performance to the next level


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## Fraz666 (Mar 17, 2016)

bstigen97 said:


> Any contributions or advice is appreciated


quick advice:
give him this link
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/li...my-guitarist-being-unreasonable-he-right.html


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## bostjan (Mar 17, 2016)

Give him this instruction: He has 24 hours to book a big time show or at least get a solid lead on one. After that, since he's not willing to book the shows he wants to play, and he doesn't want to play the shows you book, kick him to the curb. Guitarists are seriously a dime a dozen. He does not seem to be grounded in reality, so give him one more chance as above and that's it.


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## extendedsolo (Mar 17, 2016)

Just speaking from an aspect of working with people in general, if someone is already dragging you down, consider dropping them. It's more beneficial for the rest of your band to get out and play without another member (I'm assuming 2 guitar band here) and you'll pick up another guitar player later. When things get hard, he'll find something else to complain about. Unless he is a generational talent like Freddie Mercury or something, but I'm betting he isn't.


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## 7 Dying Trees (Mar 17, 2016)

You need to play .... shows. Even if noone turns up. why? Well...

1) It's practice. Not just for playing the gig, but also for setting up your gear quickly, dealing with .... that goes wrong, getting there on time, you name it. Part of experience is learning to have a pro attitude to all this

2) It'll teach you how to setup with monitors and deal with shows that have crap or non existent monitors

3) Nerves, it'll give you some confidence

4) It'll let you work on your live act before playing the shows that matter. You can hone your crowd working skills, make mistakes, .... up, and it won't matter as much

5) How to deal with .... when it goes wrong. Everything will go wrong. Trust me on this one.

6) Quick setup, quick breakdown, best to have this in the bag before you piss off a venue that's running late for the headline act. If you're pro, get on and off quickly and without hassle, they'll ask you back. If you are slow, chaotic and don't start on time, chances are you won't get asked again as you ....ed up the night for other bands or the headliners.

7) Learning how to deal with .... monitors and just get on with it. Noone likes a whinger. Learn how to play stuff with just the drummer as the guide. No vocals, no bass, nothing else. This means a simple mix, which means even monitors which are ....ed should still give you joy. And it's quick for the sound guy to do. 


Now, the point is to not keep playing .... shows, but start out with them, use them as practice, then when you know you can blow the socks off a crowd, look like a pro to the venue, then go and fish for bigger gigs, you'll also develop word of mouth, have shows you've taped or filmed to show you are good. Also venues will like you because you help their show run smoothly. You'll develop how to speak to a crowd and work it and what stage moves work and what don't. You'll also learn how to work a difficult or small crowd and get them going, how your songs work live, which ones work, which ones just don't. Basically it's a lot more than just playing the songs, that's the fun part.

You also need to become a live unit, this is different from well rehearsed. I found that when touring it'd take 2-5 shows for the band to lock in and become a machine, the first few being a bit weird with new songs and getting back into the swing of things. By the end of a run it'd be well rehearsed. It's also why bands play warm up shows, sometimes in venues you'd never expect them to play in.

All these things count. 

Now, before you go saying "what does this guy know", ut it this way, I've played .... venues where just the other band members have been, maybe 2-3 paying punters, going through small clubs, up to the Ozzfest headlining the second stage and major European festivals, headlining world tours. A LOT of the experience that came in handy was from playing crap shows where stuff went wrong, learning how to find spots on stage where you can hear what's going on when the monitors .... up, learning to use the simplest monitor mix you can and to use front of house to pick up anything else you need, learning how to interact with a crowd, how to deal with a hostile crowd, and sometimes just how to get through a set in front of a crowd who don't give a .... (sometimes with .... being thrown at you) without feeling crap at the end etc etc etc.

The bit about playing live is that you have to learn ow to develop the connection between you and the audience, how to get the energy loop going, get them involved by putting the right energy in, the right stage presence.

Larger crowd means it's harder to get them going, and requires more little tricks.

So, when he refuses to play ....ty shows, well, I'd play them for a laugh and for fun, and some of them are enjoyable as hell.

Ego isn't going to get you anywhere at all.


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## 7 Dying Trees (Mar 17, 2016)

Oh, and if someone in a band isn't playing ball and being problematic, get rid of them, chances are they'll stay that way and become a bigger problem down the line.


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## Unleash The Fury (Mar 20, 2016)

7 Dying Trees said:


> You need to play .... shows. Even if noone turns up. why? Well...
> 
> 1) It's practice. Not just for playing the gig, but also for setting up your gear quickly, dealing with .... that goes wrong, getting there on time, you name it. Part of experience is learning to have a pro attitude to all this
> 
> ...



great advice, great read!


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## MistaSnowman (Mar 20, 2016)

Playing small shows lead to networking opportunities with promoters, other bands within the genre and fans. The more exposure you have, the better and all it takes is one well-connected person to like your music/band and better opportunities may be in front of you.


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