# Headrush frfr 112 vs 5153 vs Drummer



## FifthCircleSquared (Oct 25, 2019)

I've recently started jamming out with friends. Currently my beater (Blackstar HT-20) 20w tube amp is having a hard time keeping up with the drummer - It can do it but it is 100% maxed out volume wise and the feedback is barely controllable. Fresh tubes, just biased, still getting pretty saucy on me. I've replaced the OE speaker with a V30 and have a PPC-112 extension cabinet on it.

At home I have an AX-8 that I enjoy immensely and was thinking about getting a Headrush FRFR-112 for it to bring to jam, and hopefullt keep up with this drummer. Will the Headrush keep up? It'd be a nice light and portable rig.

On the other hand I've been pining for a newer 5153 with the concentric knobs. I KNOW it will keep up in a band context, but I don't really need fifty tube watts at home and lugging that and my vertical 2x12 back and forth to the jam space would be kind of a PITA. 

Thoughts?


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## budda (Oct 25, 2019)

Well how much wattage does the headrush have? That's your answer.

Leave a 212 or 412 cab and bring whatever you want.

Also watts are watts, regardless of what's making them .


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## FifthCircleSquared (Oct 25, 2019)

The Headrush FRFR-112 is a 1000w RMS (Class D powered) speaker. It's like a PA cab but marketed for guitarists using modelers. I can't find much on google about people using them as their main source at rehearsals. I found one (comical) anecdotal post about a dude cranking his in his neighborhood and getting some attention four houses down, but that's about it.

I'm mostly looking for someone to say "Yes, I have one, I make my drummers ears bleed with it", lol, or "No, this is SSO, buy a 5153 or you need to go sign up on TGP".


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## rokket2005 (Oct 25, 2019)

I have a Headrush FRFR112, but I only use it in my apartment because it sounds better to run my torpedo or axe III though than my monitors. Mine says 2000w on it, but even if it was 1000w class D I'd think it should work just fine. People have been using FRFR monitors for a few years in band practice situations with stuff like the QSC K12s and the like, so I'd say go for it. You might have to make some different scenes using the headrush if you're used to using the ax8 with headphones or something.


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## littlebadboy (Oct 25, 2019)

I tried the Headrush FRFR 112. It was so friggin loud! I opted for the FRFR108, but I'm usually just home player.


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## WarMachine (Oct 25, 2019)

Yes, it will be plenty loud. I don't have one, but i do have an EV powered 1x12 PA monitor at 1,000 watts. EVZLX12-P if i remember right lol. It was keeping up just fine with a very loud drummer, and still had about 3/4 more volume that could've been added to it.


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## KailM (Oct 26, 2019)

You need a 5153 or you may as well take up knitting. 

Mine sounds amazing at low volumes, and crushes at higher volumes too. It's not that heavy of a head, and it's smaller than a full-size one as well (I hate carrying my 6505 head). Get a foldable dolly like I have, and you can roll the whole rig around quite easily.


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## Elric (Oct 26, 2019)

I’ve heard nothing but good things about the Headrush, FWIW. Although I have never played one. They seem like a bargain based on price.


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## Jeff (Oct 26, 2019)

Don’t know how different the 8” is, but the HR112 is loud as fuck.


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## littlebadboy (Oct 26, 2019)

Jeff said:


> Don’t know how different the 8” is, but the HR112 is loud as fuck.


Agree. It rattled my small home studio! It was also too huge for me. I have to complaint with the 8"ers on my current HR118. Still as loud as heck, but smaller.


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## FifthCircleSquared (Oct 26, 2019)

Thanks for the input everyone! Sounds like I could try out the Headrush for rehearsal and if it doesn't work out use it at home with my AX-8 and grab a 5153 down the line. I'll take a couple of days to think on it and if I go through with it I'll report back.


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## spudmunkey (Oct 26, 2019)

The Headrush units are effectively identical to a couple specific Alto units, which can sometimes he easier to find, and sometimes go on sale. Worth looking into. But you will want to make sure that you are looking at the exact right model numbers, because there are a few different ones.


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## littlebadboy (Oct 26, 2019)

spudmunkey said:


> The Headrush units are effectively identical to a couple specific Alto units, which can sometimes he easier to find, and sometimes go on sale. Worth looking into. But you will want to make sure that you are looking at the exact right model numbers, because there are a few different ones.


The Headrush FRFR and the Alto are made by the same company. Thus, they are very identical in looks. However, they're different as the Headrush is an FRFR system while the Alto has a preamp that may color your tone from your mfx/modeler.


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## FifthCircleSquared (Oct 26, 2019)

This isn't me, and it's the frfr 108 insteard of the 112, NOT in a metal context but it looks like it hang:


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## vick1000 (Oct 27, 2019)

The 108 or 112 will be just fine, unless your drummer uses a big PA and mics his kit, in which case you should run a line as well.


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## lewis (Oct 27, 2019)

My drummer hits hard as fuck and reguarly gets through cymbals.
My two HEADRUSH 112s together even at half volume are louder than the drummer.


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## LeviathanKiller (Oct 27, 2019)

I use a Headrush FRFR108 and it not only sounds better than my EV ZLX-12P but is much louder. I've still not had a situation where I need to crank it in a band rehearsal context or even small gig.


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 28, 2019)

I did a lot of A-B'ing with PA speakers earlier in the year for my modeler setup. IMO the Headrush is fine for medium-loud volumes, but getting it up to "heavy-handed-metal-drummer-practice" volumes it DID NOT like my 8 and 9 string guitars. Even HPFing my guitars at 100-150Hz it was still farting around in the low end and the tweeter was crackling a little bit. The new Mackie Thumps and the EV-ZLX powered speakers had a much better overall sound and moved more air at high volumes comparitively. I ended up with a pair of the EV-ZLX12Ps. I only got two because sometimes we play rooms with little PA support for instruments and I wanna spread the sound around the stage. One of them is more than enough for rehearsal.


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## Backsnack (Oct 28, 2019)

budda said:


> Well how much wattage does the headrush have? That's your answer.
> 
> Leave a 212 or 412 cab and bring whatever you want.
> 
> Also watts are watts, regardless of what's making them .


Yes, to a point.

I’m skeptical of the power ratings on the Headrush speakers and many other cheaper FRFR cabs. I’m pretty sure they like to advertise their short-term peak power ratings and bury the RMS ratings in the fine print in the manual.


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## budda (Oct 28, 2019)

Then check the manual.


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 28, 2019)

budda said:


> Also watts are watts, regardless of what's making them .


That's not really true for Class D amplifiers. 2K "available" watts means about 500 useable watts, plus whatever DSP overhead is needed for tuning the system to the cabinet, so probably closer to 350-400 watts of actual output. Which is plenty, but not exactly as advertised.


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## budda (Oct 28, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> That's not really true for Class D amplifiers. 2K "available" watts means about 500 useable watts, plus whatever DSP overhead is needed for tuning the system to the cabinet, so probably closer to 350-400 watts of actual output. Which is plenty, but not exactly as advertised.



How do you figure 75% of the wattage isnt available? First Im hearing about this.

Usually the max wattage involves running at 4 ohms.


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## Rev2010 (Oct 28, 2019)

budda said:


> How do you figure 75% of the wattage isnt available? First Im hearing about this.



Do you really believe the Headrush FRFR-112 is 13x louder than a Mesa Triple Rec because of the watts rating??


Rev.


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 28, 2019)

budda said:


> How do you figure 75% of the wattage isnt available? First Im hearing about this.
> 
> Usually the max wattage involves running at 4 ohms.


Because class D has a really low output before it starts getting into audible distortion. There will be lots of power available, but it will be awful sounding above a small threshold. That's why all these lightweight powered monitors have INSANE wattage listings (a 10" speaker with a 1" tweeter with 2K watts?) but are no louder than the same design with 100W of Class AB power. The reason class D is so popular is because you can get 2K watts out of a 3-4lb amp and if you only need 300-400 of it to be clean, it's still way lighter than a comparable class AB amplifier.
Edit - if you look at the actual speaker ratings for peak/RMS installed in these cabinets you'll see pretty average wattage ratings way below the "max" the amp can put out.


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## budda (Oct 28, 2019)

Rev2010 said:


> Do you really believe the Headrush FRFR-112 is 13x louder than a Mesa Triple Rec because of the watts rating??
> 
> 
> Rev.



Ever run a rec into a 112 for it to be an even comparison?


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## Rev2010 (Oct 28, 2019)

budda said:


> Ever run a rec into a 112 for it to be an even comparison?



You were talking about watts. My comparison was even. If you'd like me to reword it - do you really think the FRFR-112 is 13x louder than a Mesa Triple Rec into a 1x12 with a speaker that can handle the full watts?


Rev.


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## Cynicanal (Oct 29, 2019)

The relationship between watts and volume isn't linear even within tube amps (2x power = +3db), so your argument makes no sense.


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## budda (Oct 29, 2019)

Cynicanal said:


> The relationship between watts and volume isn't linear even within tube amps (2x power = +3db), so your argument makes no sense.


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## Rev2010 (Oct 29, 2019)

Cynicanal said:


> The relationship between watts and volume isn't linear even within tube amps (2x power = +3db), so your argument makes no sense.



That's exactly the point I was making. Budda was talking about the 2000 watts and Gunpointmetal was explaining how it's not really 2000 watts in the terms of power to actual output. I used the analogy of how a 2000 watt FRFR-112 is not 13x louder than a Mesa Triple Rec. The point being "don't fall into the numbers hype".

I'm done explaining this.


Rev.


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## sleewell (Oct 29, 2019)

a 50w 5153 is really easy to carry. I usually have my helix on my back and can also grab my amp and guitar.


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## FifthCircleSquared (Oct 29, 2019)

Someone mentioned issues with low tuned guitars; I don't usually go lower than drop C on a 6 string. Right now we are playing rock and thrash in standard E.

I went ahead and ordered the Headrush FRFR-112 to try for now. I figure if it doesn't work out I'll buy the 5153 too. Which I'll probably end up doing someday anyways.  It should be here tomorrow, I'll try to report back on Thursday for initial impressions and Saturday after rehearsal.


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## spudmunkey (Oct 29, 2019)

Make sure you've decoupled the FRFR from the floor. Even the 8" can be very very boomy when it's sitting on the floor, so you'll definitely want to elevate it.


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## Jeff (Oct 29, 2019)

Class D really isn't as "efficient" as Class AB, be it tube or SS. I forget the model (and it's disappointing they discontinued it) but the Mesa Boogie bass lunchbox head that was all tube, but "only" 250 watts smeared an 800 watt class D Subway D-800, in terms of volume. Though the Subway is a damn cool little bass head.


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## FifthCircleSquared (Oct 29, 2019)

spudmunkey said:


> Make sure you've decoupled the FRFR from the floor. Even the 8" can be very very boomy when it's sitting on the floor, so you'll definitely want to elevate it.



I forgot to mention I also got a cheap PA stand to decouple the unit from the floor based on other reviews I read that suggested this. Plus I can get it closer to the drummer and I's ears.

I'm excited, if it works out I'm already thinking of getting the 108 as a personal monitor.


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## TedEH (Oct 29, 2019)

There's lots of talk here about wattage, but my initial reaction when I read the OP was that there's not enough speakers moving some air around. I've used a 25w amp against a loud drummer in a noisy room and it can certainly be done, but the cab has to be efficient. Usually, that meant using something of quality, and of a decent size. A little 1x12 against a drummer is going to be a struggle. Through an OS 4x12 though, it's a non-issue.


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## FifthCircleSquared (Oct 30, 2019)

Currently in the jam space I have a Blackstar 20w combo and am running a PPC112 on top of it in Parallel, they both have V30's in them, so essentially I am running a 1x12 open back and a 1x12 closed back together (The PPC112 is on top of the Combo).

The Blackstar is an interesting design, it uses EL34's but it only produces 20 watts. Not sure if it's a starved plate design or what, but I digress.

Right now we can *almost* get by volume wise, especially if I stand next to the drummer with the cabs pointing at me, but the main issue I'm having is that the Blackstar is turned up beyond the point that it can produce volume and is clipping the power section pretty hard. Sounds pretty cool without a boost for classic rock, but feedback is barely controllable. Once I add any sort of boost to try to do some thrash or metal it's feedback city when I stop playing.

The clean channel with an overdrive actually holds up quite well at volume and breaks up in a nice way when pushed over the limit. If we were a blues or lighter rock band we'd be in good shape.


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## budda (Oct 30, 2019)

Get a 412.


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## FifthCircleSquared (Oct 30, 2019)

I have a poopy Marshall MX412 I picked up at a yard sale on the cheap and recently just took some leftover speakers I had and threw them in it (Two Greenbacks on top and on bottom there is an Eminence CV-75 and one of the crappy OEM Marshall G12-k85s or whatever it came with).

Next to my Vertical Mesa 2x12 that is loaded with a Creamback M-65 on top and an H-75 on bottom, it's pretty boomy (I suspect the quality and dimensions of the cab are the issue, had the GB's in the vertical Mesa before I got the Creambacks), but I haven't put a lot of volume to it. Do you really think it would make that much of a difference in my scenario?


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 31, 2019)

Backsnack said:


> Yes, to a point.
> 
> I’m skeptical of the power ratings on the Headrush speakers and many other cheaper FRFR cabs. I’m pretty sure they like to advertise their short-term peak power ratings and bury the RMS ratings in the fine print in the manual.


They like to list whatever the maximum output of the amplifier is even if it's limited with the circuitry. If these things were actually putting out the wattage advertised they'd be tearing through drivers daily.


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## budda (Oct 31, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> They like to list whatever the maximum output of the amplifier is even if it's limited with the circuitry. If these things were actually putting out the wattage advertised they'd be tearing through drivers daily.



They would? Even with the volume control?


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 31, 2019)

budda said:


> They would? Even with the volume control?


There would be absolutely no advantage to the manufacturer to give the user the ability to run 4X the power the speakers handle RMS.


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## budda (Oct 31, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> There would be absolutely no advantage to the manufacturer to give the user the ability to run 4X the power the speakers handle RMS.



So we've concluded the speaker wouldnt blow.


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 31, 2019)

budda said:


> So we've concluded the speaker wouldnt blow.


All but the cheapest are going to have some sort of overload protection. I think I just misunderstood what you were getting at.


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## Backsnack (Nov 1, 2019)

budda said:


> They would? Even with the volume control?


He's exaggerating a little bit, but I'm pretty sure there are very few 8" drivers that can handle 1000 actual watts RMS to my knowledge. As in continuous, sustained power for long periods of time before overloading.


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## FifthCircleSquared (Nov 1, 2019)

Got the Headrush in today after some mishaps with FedEx this week.

Unfortunately my bandmates house is without power due to windstorms, so I haven't been able to test against a drummer, but I can say this thing is loud as balls if you want it to be. I'm not convinced it's as loud as a dimed JCM800, but it can move some air. I need to get an SPL meter.

Excited to try it against a drummer, as I'm pretty sure it's at least as loud as my dimed Blackstar and it's virtually noiseless when I stop playing without a gate enabled on the AX-8.

Some specs from the manual:

-It's 2000w peak, but 1000w RMS.
-At RMS, it's delivering 650w to the LF 12" driver and 350w to the 1.4" HF driver.
-Max SPL is 131db (peak) and 128db RMS. (That's pretty effing loud!)

I can get the volume to about 7.5 or 8 before the overload LED starts to come on. On my AX8 I normalize my presets to about -1db and I have the output knob set to just under halfway. My neighbors were definitely irritated and my wife yelled at me (but I couldn't hear her  )

As far as sound quality, it seems to be doing a good job at replicating what you send to it. Up to now I had only used the AX-8 as a recording tool through studio monitors and I was worried about how my patches would translate to uber loud. So far in my living room they sound great (other than one patch that had more reverb then I thought). With the Headrush on a cheap PA stand I bought, the patches don't sound too boomy or shrill. It'll be nice to see how they sit in a rehearsal setting.

So far, so good. I'll report back once I get a chance to play against some acoustic drums. I'm happy enough right now to buy a second one if I need a little reinforcement, as it looks to be a versatile lightweight tool and combining it with the AX-8 is giving me some usable sounds and plenty of tonal options. Stay tuned for updates!

Edit: Some interesting reading about SPL in relation to tube amps: http://www.marshallforum.com/threads/5w-20w-50w-100w-spl-levels-for-amp-buyers.14034/


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## Ozzfest (Nov 1, 2019)

I'm glad you're happy with it so far. Def keep us posted.

That link is a good read.....a little bit above my head but still good.


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## spudmunkey (Nov 1, 2019)

I'm leaning towards picking one up, myself. Good to hear positive experience from someone who was/is at least partially skeptical.

This picture was posted this morning on the Facebook group, and it amused me because of how minimal it is, with the caption, "Sound was pretty awesome. Headrush [8"] filled the whole church."


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## FifthCircleSquared (Nov 14, 2019)

Alright, finally had a chance to jam with my drummer last weekend.

Result: For us, it worked well. I did have to run the unit on the treshold of clipping (Overload light would slowly fade on) to get to the volume I was looking for. This was at about 7.5 of 11 on the Headrush's volume dial. I'm thinking of buying a second one, so that I can point one at the drummer and use the other as a personal monitor, or just be hilariously loud and really fill the room up.

The Headrush is semi-beamy, most of the higher frequencies are centered in a 45-75 degree cone to my ears. I was still able to stand to the side of it and hear myself well.

It feels especially good to play through above volume 4 or so; Below that feels ok but my patches were designed in a studio environment with the fletcher munson curve in mind and I think that's why I feel this thing sounds better the louder you go.

For home / low volume playing you could either hit the contour button on the Headrush, which feels pretty good (extends lows and highs), or build patches specifically for low volume playing.

Overall I feel like it was a good investment and would/will buy one again. 

Edit: Grammar. I'm sure I'll find more mistakes, lol.


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## danpintos (Nov 15, 2019)

I think the 112 is really good. I actually have a vocal patch for my POD 500X and I play guitar and sing through it into the headrush and it keeps up with my drummer (who typically plays loud as fuck).


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