# ABC's take on Atheism



## Nights_Blood (Jul 17, 2010)

I know the subject of religion is a touchy one, but this is yet another case of the dominance of mainstream christianity in the media, and it's being broadcast all over the country tonight.

So i just watched Nightline, and it so happened that one of the segments was on atheism in America (which was called "Faith Matters"... that should tell you where this is going). More specifically, a guy named Edwin Kagan, who in ABC's words, is a "ringleader" of these atheists.

Kagan has a kind of support group for adult atheists, where, among other more casual activities, he performs "de-baptisms", in which he takes a blowdryer to the recipient for a few seconds, while jokingly saying things like "free at last", and the audience laughs along (of course, he pokes fun at other aspects of Christianity as well). Some people do take it as a sort of "cleansing" of their blind faith, though it is not intended to be serious.

Next they said he had a summer camp for kids. I though that was weird and almost discredited the guy, until it turned out that the camp was actually for already-atheist kids who were harassed in school by "believers."

Of course, being part of the mainstream media, ABC wasn't going to sympathize with such a "radical" group. They constantly referred to these atheists as being "increasingly aggressive", simply because they were getting their group out there. As reporters always do when they portray something in a negative light, he made extremely sarcastic comments about Kagan and atheism.

Here's some of the dumb shit the reporter said to Kagan, and this is only like the first 20 seconds of the interview.


Reporter: "Religion is the source, for millions of people, of strength, serenity, and it is a fuel for doing good works." 

Kagan: "In some cases, it's also a fuel for doing some very bad works". (Which is correct)

Reporter: "Godlessness has been a force for evil as well. Stalin comes to mind, Pol Pat comes to mind...Given that we've had mass atrocities by both the faithful and the faithless, why use that as an excuse to mock?" 
(He's not even the one who tied religion in with character. You did that, dumbass)

Kagan: You can mock anything you want to, because you have the right to. Th-"

Reporter (cutting him off): "But that doesn't make it RIGHT".
(Because exposing holes in your so-called "faith" is never right)
----

It just makes me fucking sick to watch these people get berated, and knowing that millions of people sat on their couches poinitng and laughing tonight. Tomorrow, they'll go to school or work and talk shit behind the backs of the "devil worshipping fag in algebra class" or "Tom, the atheist in accounting. I'm not an atheist, so i'm not bitching about being oppressed or some shit like that, just pointing out yet another vendetta by mainstream culture to alienate anyone who doesn't think like they do. And all this was only 20 minutes of a story much more worth my time, which they spent about 4 minutes on: The money we were giving to Haiti's government to help those affected by the earthquake. Apparently their government (and some of our charities) were witholding large portions of money. But that's for another thread

Oh, and as soon as the segment wraps up, the female anchor at the desk just has to hammer the point home:

"Mm. The blurry line between free speech and poor taste".  

Real fucking classy.


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## coupe89 (Jul 17, 2010)

What I hate is when you are an atheists everyone ask you if you were sexually abused as a child, because why else would you not believe in god.


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## Demiurge (Jul 17, 2010)

It would harder to expect ABC/Disney to sign off of something that would offer a fair evaluation of both sides.

Anyway, if you think about it, most of what's on the news normally would serve as evidence to the contrary of claims of the benevolence or the existence of God. They can do all the "news magazine" faith-bolstering puff pieces they want for middle-America, but when the rest of their news outlet presents stories on natural disasters, war, tragedies, and other horrors, that's just another way of saying that there's a very good chance that we are _alone_.


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## Prydogga (Jul 17, 2010)

Oh the joy of biased interviews on a biased network. *WHO PRESUMES THEY ARE TALKING TO A BIASED VIEWERSHIP* 

I can't stand this sort of bullshit "reporting", it's funny when Colbert and Stuart do this kind of "interviewing" with prejudice as a lark, but from a multimillion dollar company like ABC (_American Broadcast Network_. _American_, Yo, show some damn form you idiots.) it's just disgusting, I've been disappointed by the reporting value of ABC many times. This is no different.


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## rhysmus (Jul 17, 2010)

i don't classify myself as an atheist because atheism is still a religion in one way. I do not believe in religion at all, hence why i have an Anti-Christ tattoo on my calf. 

To me religion is the cause of many many problems. Wars, debates, heck higher religious folk don't have to pay taxes. (that shit is wack!). 

And lets all think of the story behind religion, they do not think dinosaurs exist, it was all a test of god. (this was the best explanation they could think of because the bible was written before the bones were found). 

And one more thing, if we all came from Adam and Eve (the crazy folk who could talk to snakes! Must have been Ancestors of Harry Potter!) does that mean we are all ridiculously inbreed and Eve slept with her children.

If i offend, Meh, Damn i hate religion!


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## DevinShidaker (Jul 17, 2010)

This is how it is the majority of the time, and I hate it. I try as hard as possible to stay out of religious debates, but somehow, religious people can never leave me alone about my beliefs. It's quite annoying.


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## Taylor2 (Jul 17, 2010)

rhysmus said:


> i don't classify myself as an atheist because atheism is still a religion in one way. I do not believe in religion at all, hence why i have an Anti-Christ tattoo on my calf.
> 
> To me religion is the cause of many many problems. Wars, debates, heck higher religious folk don't have to pay taxes. (that shit is wack!).
> 
> ...


 
Thanks dude, but that isn't the point of this thread.





Is anyone here really, REALLY surprised about ABC doing this?


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## Nights_Blood (Jul 17, 2010)

Demiurge said:


> It would harder to expect ABC/Disney to sign off of something that would offer a fair evaluation of both sides.



I know, and that's the point - they would never do so, because they know what the "acceptable" religion here in America is, and everyone would skew it and say that they were advocating atheism, and their ratings would go down. Unfounded panic by the viewers, which happens with a lot more things than religious arguments (Y2K anyone?)



Demiurge said:


> Anyway, if you think about it, most of what's on the news normally would serve as evidence to the contrary of claims of the benevolence or the existence of God. They can do all the "news magazine" faith-bolstering puff pieces they want for middle-America, but when the rest of their news outlet presents stories on natural disasters, war, tragedies, and other horrors, that's just another way of saying that there's a very good chance that we are _alone_.



I agree, but most religious people will just tell you "God was punishing us for our sins", or "He works in mysterious ways". I don't think those starving children in Haiti have sinned any more than we have. A-rod had cheated on his wife, lied to millions of his fans about steroids... two of the seven "deadly" sins, and what happens to him? He makes 33 million a year and gets to screw Kate Hudson. Well, the mysterious part sure is right. 

The only reason A-rod popped into my head was because when the reporter was asking Kagan about his kid (who is an ordained minister), the questions he asked came off like he was asking "does your son know you have this terrible disease?", while Kagan joked about it like it was nothing more than a Red Sox-Yankees rivalry. It's funny though - they accuse him of being this brainwashing (ironic) atheist, and his kid's a high member of the Christian church.


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## ittoa666 (Jul 18, 2010)

Fuck the mainstream news channels. All they do is get someone who thinks differently and try to break them down and make their argument invalid. Why are you gonna have someone who thinks differently from you on a network news show, so you can laugh? It's a sad joke.


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## MF_Kitten (Jul 18, 2010)

the mainstream media isn´t going to side with atheists anytime soon. i know they are more objective here in norway and in england, but in the US, nothing is going to happen until atheism is more accepted and respected first.


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## DaddleCecapitation (Jul 18, 2010)

I'm sorry, but the USA is the ONLY western nation with such a disgusting mainstream view of atheists. The American media needs to grow up!


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## Demiurge (Jul 18, 2010)

HammettHateCrew said:


> I'm sorry, but the USA is the ONLY western nation with such a disgusting mainstream view of atheists. The American media needs to grow up!



I doubt that's true. The Vatican is a sovereign nation.


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## pink freud (Jul 18, 2010)

HammettHateCrew said:


> I'm sorry, but the USA is the ONLY western nation with such a disgusting mainstream view of atheists. The American media needs to grow up!



Americans in general need to grow up. Only 10-30% of Americans are atheists (or otherwise unaffiliated). That means that SEVENTY TO NINETY PERCENT OF AMERICANS STILL BELIEVE IN MAGIC. Let's face it, that's what religion is. The belief that beings can ignore the laws of physics (in the name of psychological security blankets).

The religious in this country determine our leaders, because without pandering to them there is no way a person will get elected. It's one of the reasons why I might, if I ever, move out of the country.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 18, 2010)

pink freud said:


> Americans in general need to grow up. Only 10-30% of Americans are atheists (or otherwise unaffiliated). That means that SEVENTY TO NINETY PERCENT OF AMERICANS STILL BELIEVE IN MAGIC. Let's face it, that's what religion is. The belief that beings can ignore the laws of physics (in the name of psychological security blankets).
> 
> The religious in this country determine our leaders, because without pandering to them there is no way a person will get elected. It's one of the reasons why I might, if I ever, move out of the country.



It's crazy to think isn't it.


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## Skyblue (Jul 18, 2010)

coupe89 said:


> What I hate is when you are an atheists everyone ask you if you were sexually abused as a child, because why else would you not believe in god.


what the eff, seriously? I've never heard that. 

It's actually interesting to think what would an article about atheism here be like... religion is quite strong here, and while I don't have problems with religious people in person, I sometimes see stuff the religious community does... it's stupid, and borders with insanity. 
Not hating on religion here- the thing I hate isn't religion, it's the lack of common sense and free will. for once, think for yourself, and don't blindly follow someone. I could throw some examples if I'm being unclear... 

Can't really comment about ABC, since I don't have it here lol.


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## Origin (Jul 18, 2010)

Stupid fucking people believe in stupid fucking things. Never going to change.


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## theperfectcell6 (Jul 18, 2010)

The whole de-baptistm thing is stupid in my opinion. As an atheist, you shouldn't really think in the first place a baptism means anything whatsoever. But I agree with the rest, atheists are probably the most hated minority around. It is a joke.

There are plenty of religious people that have done terrible things. That being said, probably way more religious people have done worst things than atheists. 

Almost the entire world has been trained into some religion, and it turns on all of the few who take the logical approach.

Being atheist is OKAY. The people who are are strong because they are going against the masses, who are in many cases, hateful towards them. Hateful? Kinda ironic for "spiritual beings" and "men of God"...


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## Moro (Jul 18, 2010)

I'm an atheist. I don't care if it's considered "poor taste". I'd rather have poor taste than poor judgement.

This shouldn't really annoy you too much, trust me. I've been doing this far too long. They can say whatever they want... It's reasonable, why they do it. Most religious people are scared, all the time.


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## Nights_Blood (Jul 18, 2010)

Atheists Conduct De-Baptisms - ABC News

The Rise of Atheism - ABC News

Atheist billboard worries local business owners - ABC News


All of these were talked about in the segment.




Skyblue said:


> what the eff, seriously? I've never heard that.
> 
> It's actually interesting to think what would an article about atheism here be like... religion is quite strong here, and while I don't have problems with religious people in person, I sometimes see stuff the religious community does... it's stupid, and borders with insanity.
> Not hating on religion here- *the thing I hate isn't religion, it's the lack of common sense and free will*. for once, think for yourself, and don't blindly follow someone. I could throw some examples if I'm being unclear...



What religion if not that? People are taught to follow rules written by someone they have never met, and are also taught to accept that everything is the doing of their god, and that there's some reason behind it all.

Earlier I mentioned the Haiti earthquake. Now, wouldn't you think it to be against common sense to say, "well I know my all-powerful omnipotent god had the power to create that earthquake and kill hundreds of people, so now i'm going to pray to him to keep me safe"?




theperfectcell6 said:


> The whole de-baptistm thing is stupid in my opinion. As an atheist, you shouldn't really think in the first place a baptism means anything whatsoever. But I agree with the rest, atheists are probably the most hated minority around. It is a joke.
> 
> There are plenty of religious people that have done terrible things. That being said, probably way more religious people have done worst things than atheists.



The de-baptism is a joke, merely meant to parody what they see as a poinless ritual. Now, some of them took it to mean a litle more personally, but were probably people who spent their whole lives giving money to and being active with the church, so you can kind of understand why. It's just a way for them to mentally put all that behind them.

And yeah, it only makes sense to say that. How many times have you heard of serial murders or mass killings that were commited in the name of god, compared to against it?


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## Brendan G (Jul 18, 2010)

Since the statement I'm about to address has been made early in this thread, and I see it frequently, I think I will address it now. 
Atheism is *NOT* a religion. It is the lack of a belief in god(s). If atheism is a religion then not-guitar is an instrument, or not reading being a hobby. It's not even a matter of "I believe fervently that no gods exist!" but rather "With the evidence (or lack thereof) presented, I see no reason to believe in god, though I am more than happy to be convinced otherwise".
Thank you.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 18, 2010)

People who prematurely judge you based on sex, race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. generally aren't worth your time anyway...

Not that either side was right, but the this Kagan character knew what he was getting into in taking that interview I'm sure. It's like Obama doing an interview on Fox News...


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## Skyblue (Jul 18, 2010)

Nights_Blood said:


> What religion if not that? People are taught to follow rules written by someone they have never met, and are also taught to accept that everything is the doing of their god, and that there's some reason behind it all.


Whoops, didn't pay attention to what I was writing. what I meant to say is, It's not belief in god that I dislike, but the blind following of rules and no self thinking. 

For example, about a year ago, on a friday night, a small child from a religious family here in israel fell from a balcony on the 3rd floor of the building. she was badly injured of course, probably close to death. paramedics wanted to rush her to the closest hospital, but her mother refused. the reason? she insisted she has to ask the Rabbi if it's ok that the baby will be in a car (In Judaism it is not allowed to "work" on saturdays- which means sunset on friday before to sunset on saturday. work includes driving, and also other stuff like turning the electricity on. I know, makes perfect sense). luckily, the rabbi was contacted and he said it's ok, and the girl survived. but this kind of thickness, and blindly obeying... I just hate that. 
I've met people who believe on god and had no problem with me not believing.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 18, 2010)

Skyblue said:


> Whoops, didn't pay attention to what I was writing. what I meant to say is, It's not belief in god that I dislike, but the blind following of rules and no self thinking.
> 
> For example, about a year ago, on a friday night, a small child from a religious family here in israel fell from a balcony on the 3rd floor of the building. she was badly injured of course, probably close to death. paramedics wanted to rush her to the closest hospital, but her mother refused. the reason? she insisted she has to ask the Rabbi if it's ok that the baby will be in a car (In Judaism it is not allowed to "work" on saturdays- which means sunset on friday before to sunset on saturday. work includes driving, and also other stuff like turning the electricity on. I know, makes perfect sense). luckily, the rabbi was contacted and he said it's ok, and the girl survived. but this kind of thickness, and blindly obeying... I just hate that.
> I've met people who believe on god and had no problem with me not believing.



If ppl want to blindly follow something then they're free to do so... It's when they try to change my mind about what it is that *I* do that I have a problem...


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## Razorgrin (Jul 18, 2010)

Brendan G said:


> Since the statement I'm about to address has been made early in this thread, and I see it frequently, I think I will address it now.
> Atheism is *NOT* a religion. It is the lack of a belief in god(s). If atheism is a religion then not-guitar is an instrument, or not reading being a hobby. It's not even a matter of "I believe fervently that no gods exist!" but rather "With the evidence (or lack thereof) presented, I see no reason to believe in god, though I am more than happy to be convinced otherwise".
> Thank you.


No, thank _you._


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 18, 2010)

Brendan G said:


> Since the statement I'm about to address has been made early in this thread, and I see it frequently, I think I will address it now.
> Atheism is *NOT* a religion. It is the lack of a belief in god(s). If atheism is a religion then not-guitar is an instrument, or not reading being a hobby. It's not even a matter of "I believe fervently that no gods exist!" but rather "With the evidence (or lack thereof) presented, I see no reason to believe in god, though I am more than happy to be convinced otherwise".
> Thank you.



With all due respect, what differentiates this from agnosticism?


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## theperfectcell6 (Jul 18, 2010)

Agnostics don't believe in no god, or a god. They are neither theists, or atheists. They are basically supported by the fact that it is impossible to prove either, or it is just irrelevant.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 18, 2010)

theperfectcell6 said:


> Agnostics don't believe in no god, or a god. They are neither theists, or atheists. They are basically supported by the fact that it is impossible to prove either, or it is just irrelevant.



Ahh I see. Brendan's explanation of an atheist is what I've always been told was agnosticism. But that definitely makes sense. Thanks


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## Brendan G (Jul 18, 2010)

Konfyouzd said:


> With all due respect, what differentiates this from agnosticism?


 I was anticipating this question and I'm glad it was asked by someone who presented as respectfully as yourself. 
Agnostic is most commonly used in it's correct sense as a qualifier to theism or atheism. For example an agnostic atheist doesn't believe in god(s) but does not claim to know this for a fact or it may be impossible to know for a fact. An Agnostic theist believes in god(s) but does not claim to know and it may be impossible to know for certain. The opposite of agnostic is gnostic a gnostic theist or gnostic atheist claims to know god(s) exist(s) or god(s) don't exist(s) respectively. 
To answer your question more clearly, gnosticism/agnosticism pertain to knowledge or the ability to know and they do not declare an opinion about god without the qualifiers of theist or atheist.
If I were to call myself an agnostic without those qualifiers it would essentially mean that I don't know if gods exist and it is impossible to know for certain.
I hope this answered your question in full and clearly.

EDIT: theperfectcell6's post is a more concise explanation.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 18, 2010)

yea that's actually far more in depth than i thought it would be. 

i'm asking questions basically to find out what i am based on the accepted definitions just to keep everyone else from freaking out in situations when i'm more or less "forced" to self identify (although knowing what you are doesn't necessarily keep others from freaking out  ).


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## Nights_Blood (Jul 18, 2010)

Konfyouzd said:


> Ahh I see. Brendan's explanation of an atheist is what I've always been told was agnosticism. But that definitely makes sense. Thanks



Well he did kind of mix it up. perfectcell did sort out the Konfyouzion though





Brendan G said:


> Atheism is *NOT* a religion. It is the lack of a belief in god(s). If atheism is a religion then not-guitar is an instrument, or not reading being a hobby. It's not even a matter of "I believe fervently that no gods exist!" but rather "*With the evidence (or lack thereof) presented, I see no reason to believe in god, though I am more than happy to be convinced otherwise".*
> Thank you.



No. That is agnosticism. Atheism is very specifically the rejection of the existence of gods, which means that they are NOT open to being convinced otherwise. So in a sense, atheism DOES resemble religion, even if it is by definition, an anti-religion.

Which is precisely why I am agnostic. Atheists will ridicule any form of deity worship, but I fail to see how one can just say that there is absolutely no form of higher power and leave it at that. Personally, I think there's way too much unexplainable shit that happens to be sure one way or the other. I mean...fucking quasars are INSANE man.




Skyblue said:


> Whoops, didn't pay attention to what I was writing. what I meant to say is, It's not belief in god that I dislike, but the blind following of rules and no self thinking.
> 
> For example, about a year ago, on a friday night, a small child from a religious family here in israel fell from a balcony on the 3rd floor of the building. she was badly injured of course, probably close to death. paramedics wanted to rush her to the closest hospital, but her mother refused. the reason? she insisted she has to ask the Rabbi if it's ok that the baby will be in a car (In Judaism it is not allowed to "work" on saturdays- which means sunset on friday before to sunset on saturday. work includes driving, and also other stuff like turning the electricity on. I know, makes perfect sense). luckily, the rabbi was contacted and he said it's ok, and the girl survived. but this kind of thickness, and blindly obeying... I just hate that.
> I've met people who believe on god and had no problem with me not believing.



It's all good man. Yeah, I can at least kind of agree with you there.

But that example that you just gave... that shit pisses me off man. The girl's life was in jeopardy, and they have to defer to a rabbi for permission to take her to a hospital? 

I think that's almost as dumb as Christian Science.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 18, 2010)

Nights_Blood said:


> Well he did kind of mix it up. perfectcell did sort out the Konfyouzion though
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Creation science sounds like the same thing as atheism to me if atheism is what you say. It exists simply to serve as an antithesis to something else.


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## Brendan G (Jul 18, 2010)

Nights_Blood said:


> No. That is agnosticism. Atheism is very specifically the rejection of the existence of gods, which means that they are NOT open to being convinced otherwise. So in a sense, atheism DOES resemble religion, even if it is by definition, an anti-religion.
> 
> Which is precisely why I am agnostic. Atheists will ridicule any form of deity worship, but I fail to see how one can just say that there is absolutely no form of higher power and leave it at that. Personally, I think there's way too much unexplainable shit that happens to be sure one way or the other. I mean...fucking quasars are INSANE man.


There are no tenets of atheism, it merely reflects a lack of a belief in god(s). There is no bible of atheism which states "Thou shalt ridicule theism and deity worship". Sure, some may think that it's silly and may ridicule deity worship, but that is no different than saying that it is a tenet of Christianity to hate homosexuals and call them "Fags" and think that solely because they are homosexual and have homosexual thoughts that they will burn in hell forever. There may be individuals who classify themselves as Christian who hold those positions but it is not a _well established_ (key words) part of Christian theology.
Many intellectually honest atheists are in fact open to be convinced otherwise. I'm sure this will seems condescending and I apologize but let's break down the etymology of the word atheist. "A" is a common prefix for not. "Theism" means belief in god(s). Together, not a theist, or no belief in god. There are no claims of certainty or rejection of at least one deity in there. Also, defining something by what it is not seems silly (at least to me). This seems to be mainly a game of semantics. It seems that what you call atheism is more accurately described as anti-theism. 
By the way you describe your belief system, you would be classified as an agnostic. I know a little about quasars (Though I do not claim to know much about them other than the conceptual that I will talk about later in this post, I'm not an astro-physicist by any stretch), and they are quite interesting. However, they can be explained by natural causes by super-massive black holes surrounded by gas which for lack of a better term "fuels" it.

tl;dr: What you call "Atheism" is more accurately classified as "Anti-theism" and giving things a potential supernatural explanation explains nothing.

Alternate tl;dr: NUH-UH!


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## Nights_Blood (Jul 18, 2010)

Brendan G said:


> There are no tenets of atheism, it merely reflects a lack of a belief in god(s). There is no bible of atheism which states "Thou shalt ridicule theism and deity worship". Sure, some may think that it's silly and may ridicule deity worship, but that is no different than saying that it is a tenet of Christianity to hate homosexuals and call them "Fags" and think that solely because they are homosexual and have homosexual thoughts that they will burn in hell forever. There may be individuals who classify themselves as Christian who hold those positions but it is not a _well established_ (key words) part of Christian theology.
> Many intellectually honest atheists are in fact open to be convinced otherwise. I'm sure this will seems condescending and I apologize but let's break down the etymology of the word atheist. "A" is a common prefix for not. "Theism" means belief in god(s). Together, not a theist, or no belief in god. There are no claims of certainty or rejection of at least one deity in there. This seems to be mainly a game of semantics. It seems that what you call atheism is more accurately described as anti-theism.
> By the way you describe your belief system, you would be classified as an agnostic. I know a little about quasars (Though I do not claim to know much about them other than the conceptual that I will talk about later in this post, I'm not an astro-physicist by any stretch), and they are quite interesting. However, they can be explained by natural causes by super-massive black holes surrounded by gas which for lack of a better term "fuels" it.
> 
> tl;dr: What you call "Atheism" is more accurately classified as "Anti-theism" and putting a potential supernatural explanation to certain things explain nothing.



I think you took some of my points too literally. Obviously, is there is no church of Atheism or Atheist bible. I think the line you drew between "god-refusing atheists" and "fag-hating christians" was a bit inappropriate, as the former is a lot more in line with (one of) the dictionary definitions of atheism than "hating fags" is to the definition of being a christian. Most who do are considered pretty extreme, not to mention that the bible never says that Christians should hate homosexuals. Only that they will be judged by God. 

Firstly, you seem to referencing practical Atheism, where regardless of whether or not a person thinks there are gods, they live as though there are none. According to them, even if there are gods, they have no real influence on us. I'll admit i was wrong in making a bit of a blanket statement about Atheism, but I have not witnessed many people of this school of thought.

In Theoretical Atheism (the more popular one, or at least the one that most religion-hating people try to paint themselves as), people DO actively deny the existence of a god. The theoretical atheists that rely heavily on philosophy always dispute Pascal's Wager unlike Practical Atheists. So, yes, "anti-theism" does indeed apply.

I really didn't think you would take the quasar thing seriously, as I didn't think it to be of much substance in the argument, but while I am on the subject, I don't see how you can just dismiss it as being there. Sure, you can tell me what it's composed of, but can you really comprehend how powerful or how amazing it is that they even exist? I mean, maybe i'm just bat-shit crazy or something, but from an observational point of view, most people don't really can't comprehend the things they read in their science textbooks, and just throw them away as some useless bullshit, when in my opinion, some of these these are way more awe-inspiring than anything that has "made someone believe".


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## Nights_Blood (Jul 18, 2010)

Konfyouzd said:


> Creation science sounds like the same thing as atheism to me if atheism is what you say. It exists simply to serve as an antithesis to something else.



Well, it could certainly be said about theoretical atheism.


Shit, we're way off topic at this point. Not sure if i should care though...


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## Brendan G (Jul 18, 2010)

Nights_Blood said:


> I think you took some of my points too literally. Obviously, is there is no church of Atheism or Atheist bible. I think the line you drew between "god-refusing atheists" and "fag-hating christians" was a bit inappropriate, as the former is a lot more in line with (one of) the dictionary definitions of atheism than "hating fags" is to the definition of being a christian. Most who do are considered pretty extreme, not to mention that the bible never says that Christians should hate homosexuals. Only that they will be judged by God.
> 
> Firstly, you seem to referencing practical Atheism, where regardless of whether or not a person thinks there are gods, they live as though there are none. According to them, even if there are gods, they have no real influence on us. I'll admit i was wrong in making a bit of a blanket statement about Atheism, but I have not witnessed many people of this school of thought.
> 
> ...


I'm just going to at least try to end the semantical bullshit here (I'm also quite guilty of it, I freely admit it), I'm sure we'll both agree that what we call something doesn't change what it is. But before I drop the topic completely, I'll say that I could have picked a better analogy than I did.
And now, to quasars and other curious scientific phenomena. Neil DeGrasse Tyson explains it much better than I ever could.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 18, 2010)

Brendan G said:


> what we call something doesn't change what it is.


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## Nights_Blood (Jul 18, 2010)

Brendan G said:


> I'm just going to at least try to end the semantical bullshit here (I'm also quite guilty of it, I freely admit it), I'm sure we'll both agree that what we call something doesn't change what it is. But before I drop the topic completely, I'll say that I could have picked a better analogy than I did.
> And now, to quasars and other curious scientific phenomena. Neil DeGrasse Tyson explains it much better than I ever could.




That's fine, i'd rather not but i do hope your not suggesting that the theoretical/practical Atheism issue is irrelevant.

Didn't watch the whole video, but I still think you missed my point on that.


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## Brendan G (Jul 18, 2010)

Nights_Blood said:


> That's fine, i'd rather not but i do hope your not suggesting that the theoretical/practical Atheism issue is irrelevant.
> 
> Didn't watch the whole video, but I still think you missed my point on that.


I just don't think what we call something matters enough to warrant any more discussion of it in this thread. I do understand my point. You're saying there is stuff that is awesome (in the non-slang meaning) and think "There may/could conceivably be something supernatural behind this." which, as that video illustrates, is a philosophy of ignorance. By that I'm not saying that agnosticism or even theism is a philosophy of ignorance, but rather invoking intelligent design or even positing intelligent design as a probable answer is. The questions wherein intelligent design is given as an answer, actual science gives an answer eventually. If your point wasn't "There is phenomenon that we cannot comprehend which lends credibility to the existence of god(s)" then, quite honestly, you didn't express your opinion clearly enough.


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## eclipsex1 (Jul 18, 2010)

Nights_Blood said:


> Personally, I think there's way too much unexplainable shit that happens to be sure one way or the other. I mean...fucking quasars are INSANE man.



Yeah man.. And those fucking magnets..


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## pink freud (Jul 19, 2010)

Konfyouzd said:


> With all due respect, what differentiates this from agnosticism?



Agnosticism exists purely because of the colloquial way we commonly use the term "knowledge." In truth, everybody is an agnostic. Also in truth, every religious person is an atheist except in regards to their chosen deity.


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## TreWatson (Jul 19, 2010)

pink freud said:


> Also in truth, every religious person is an atheist except in regards to their chosen deity.


not True.

I believe in God. but i also believe god exists as the catalyst that sparked the universe and all that exists. what's to say that God can be everything and nothing at the same time?

omnipotence.

i mostly believe that every Deity are pieces of one conscious god. 

all religions can coexist, they build around 2 simple principles that are universal, much like said God him/her/itself:

live your life and love one another.

of course, i'm insane because i also believe in the simulation theory.

feel free to PM me bou that, its a lot to explain.


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## pink freud (Jul 19, 2010)

TreKita said:


> not True.
> 
> I believe in God. but i also believe god exists as the catalyst that sparked the universe and all that exists. what's to say that God can be everything and nothing at the same time?
> 
> ...



So how do you take into account deities that require the existence of no other deities?

Not all gods can be the "one true god" as each deity has distinctly separate aspects of philosophy.


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## silentrage (Jul 19, 2010)

God + Simulation Theory = you believe we live in an universal quantum automata? 
I don't know whether that's religion or science, lol.


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## jeremyb (Jul 19, 2010)

The atheists who strongly push their message are just as annoying and doing as much of a disservice to their kind as the religious equivalents, why not just believe what you believe and get on with life without trying to make it a big song and dance?

I don't believe in god but I'm not going to label myself, I don't feel I need to belong to a group, that seems too much like religion anyway!!


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## TreWatson (Jul 19, 2010)

pink freud said:


> So how do you take into account deities that require the existence of no other deities?
> 
> Not all gods can be the "one true god" as each deity has distinctly separate aspects of philosophy.


I don't believe that.

if that were the case, then please explain christianity's Trinity.

"one god in three parts"

it's the same way i view all other deities.

and note Jesus didn;t agree with everything God said in his laying of laws so either two things now become plausible:

the former, God's personalities split up, much like the Greek/roman Gods / Hindu's forms of polytheism

OR

Jesus and God were not the same being

either is fine in my book, and doesnt mess with my theory much at all.

because separate parts can disagree ( even body parts/organs do, like when organs get rejected, theyre still part of tyhe body until theyre completely destroyed)

and if Jesus wasn;t God incarnate then that just means we're stuck with the one god who is part of the system of gods and is jealous, playing back into option 1.


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## TreWatson (Jul 19, 2010)

silentrage said:


> God + Simulation Theory = you believe we live in an universal quantum automata?
> I don't know whether that's religion or science, lol.



basically whatever started the simulation = god in the simplest of terms, which leave a lot of mess behind, but the explanation works in its basic form and looks pretty without big scientific terms.


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## silentrage (Jul 19, 2010)

I'm not well read on any simulation theory, maybe I should get into that, but a quick question that comes to mind is how would you go about finding empirical evidence of it?


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## TreWatson (Jul 19, 2010)

silentrage said:


> I'm not well read on any simulation theory, maybe I should get into that, but a quick question that comes to mind is how would you go about finding empirical evidence of it?



you can't.

we won;t know until one of two things happens:

we find out indesputable proof that it is infact NOT true or:

we hit the technological singularity and become our own technology.

when our technology becomes powerful enough to simulate an entire universe, we will be able to figure out whether or not we are truly an automaton.

i guess.

it's all a very tentative theory based around conjecture at the moment, so no one really knows much of anything


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## pink freud (Jul 19, 2010)

TreKita said:


> I don't believe that.
> 
> if that were the case, then please explain christianity's Trinity.
> 
> ...



But you seem to be missing the point that by having this belief you _lack belief_ in beliefs that run counter to yours. You are still "atheist" in regards to beliefs not your own. Every person has their own concept of God. Even those who are religious. That's why from the human perspective there is an infinite number of concepts of God, as every possible perception is a separate entity. Some of those perceptions require that _only_ the preferred deity exist.


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## silentrage (Jul 19, 2010)

TreKita said:


> you can't.
> 
> we won;t know until one of two things happens:
> 
> ...



Even if we have the technology to simulate an entire universe, and we simulate enough of them that eventually one evolves life JUST like us, it still doesn't help us prove whether we're in a simulation or not, but it proves that we COULD be, and that would be mind-boggling enough. 
I hope IBM hurries up with the brain sims, hehe.


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## TreWatson (Jul 19, 2010)

pink freud said:


> But you seem to be missing the point that by having this belief you _lack belief_ in beliefs that run counter to yours. You are still "atheist" in regards to beliefs not your own. Every person has their own concept of God. Even those who are religious. That's why from the human perspective there is an infinite number of concepts of God, as every possible perception is a separate entity. Some of those perceptions require that _only_ the preferred deity exist.


that doesnt make you atheist.

look at the latin.

A - "without" 

Theist - from Theo - "God'

if i believe their god, I am not atheist to their religion.

check. and. mate.

if that were the case then protestants would be atheists against catholics, which makes no sense, since they believe in the same god but only differe in what it takes to go to heaven


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## TreWatson (Jul 19, 2010)

silentrage said:


> Even if we have the technology to simulate an entire universe, and we simulate enough of them that eventually one evolves life JUST like us, it still doesn't help us prove whether we're in a simulation or not, but it proves that we COULD be, and that would be mind-boggling enough.
> I hope IBM hurries up with the brain sims, hehe.


thats true that it doesnt prove anything, but y'know, who knows?

but the proof of the possibility will spark the research into whether or not it is

and that is incredibly and infinitely mind boggling and fascinating.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 19, 2010)

Since when do you apply the term atheist to those who oppose one specific religion? I thought that was just called being an asshole... 


Moreover, how is it that we're ALL agnostic if some of us believe so firmly that whatever religion they choose to follow is the absolute truth?

This is the reason I don't even bother w/ religion... It seems most ppl don't even know what they themselves believe or what it's supposed to mean. Not very convincing...


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## TreWatson (Jul 19, 2010)

I'm omnitheist


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## Explorer (Jul 19, 2010)

TreKita said:


> that doesnt make you atheist.
> 
> look at the latin.
> 
> ...



Err...

So, if someone believes in a religion where there is only one god, and you believe in their god but not their beliefs, then you are not atheist in regards to their religion... but the members of that religion are towards other gods, right? 

They disbelieve in all gods except their own god. 

They are without all gods except their own god.

They are _atheist_ towards all but their own god. 

Which is exactly what was said. 

Whether or not you choose to believe in anyone's god (and believing in their god(s) while saying their god is full of sh** regarding claims of being the only god is a humorous philosophical point), one has to admit that, if one follows certain faiths, they are completely without, or atheistic towards, all other gods beyond their own.

(That checkmate thing was lame, incidentally. *laugh*)


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## Antimatter (Jul 19, 2010)

God is real, and he's fucking hilarious.


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## Demiurge (Jul 19, 2010)

Antimatter said:


> God is real, and he's fucking hilarious.



That will be the tagline on the poster for a buddy-cop movie starring Richard Dawkins and Jesus.


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## ToniS (Jul 23, 2010)

Demiurge said:


> That will be the tagline on the poster for a buddy-cop movie starring Richard Dawkins and Jesus.



SOMEBODY, PHOTOSHOP THIS, NAO!!!!!!


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## TreWatson (Jul 23, 2010)

Explorer said:


> Err...
> 
> So, if someone believes in a religion where there is only one god, and you believe in their god but not their beliefs, then you are not atheist in regards to their religion... but the members of that religion are towards other gods, right?
> 
> ...


 
you're missing the point. God =/= Religion. 

I believe in every deity, in a way, because i believe that they're part of one universal god, by that respect, much like the Christians, there lies a big loophole in the " have no other gods before me"

and if you read the scripture, it seemed to manifest in that he ws saying "I'm a deity. don't worship money, don't worship work, worship ME", which seems to be what a lot of theologians point it towards.

also, keep in mind that the term Atheist means "without God".

period.

end of story.

as in, there is no god, none at all, not even the one i claim.

no, it is not possible to be selectively atheist.

you either believe in a god ( nullyfying said atheism)

or you don't believe in a god ( making you UNIVERSALLY atheist)

take for example, say I eat meat, but i say that all the other people who eat meat are wrong.

does that mean I'm vegetarian against their belief that eating meat is right?

no, it does not, it simply means that I believe i'm the only one that should eat meat.

(much like religious folk believe their god is the only REAL one)

also , a hypocrite, but that's not the point.

you seem to be thinking that atheist means thatthey oppose the religion.

if they don't believe in someone else's god but still believe in theirs, they aren't atheist, it's pretty cut and dry.

this type of name has different names in lots of religions, however.

(Heathens, Infidels, Gentiles, etc etc)

again, that's not atheist.

and just to acknowledge how lame it was the first time, i will repeat it:

check. and. mate.

(also, there's no disrespect meant, just making sure i dont come off like a dick.)


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## shredfreak (Jul 25, 2010)

Americans can be so entertaining at times


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## Cygnus (Aug 7, 2010)

Its funny how Christians wear their religion on their sleeves, but if an Atheist dares to do the same he is chastized. Especially when it comes to the mass media, who are only out to make money, and to do so they cater to whatever majority there is. Or the majority they create. 

Millions of Americans, sitting glassy-eyed in front of a TV and laughing at someone who is different than them. There's America for you.


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## 7stringless (Aug 9, 2010)

Religion = blind submission to authority. Your morals are given to you in exchange for your freedom. But then again....what is freedom to most people......How about something completely unattainable. You know......the prize always just out of reach. Because living life just isn't enough sometimes.......I guess......

I can't quote which news program I was watching but it was primarily an atheist roast on an american station and one statement came up that seriously burned my balls......"Where does an atheist get his/her morals if not from the bible." These deep seeded beliefs that we are all born sinners and incapable of abiding by the general standards of morality without guidance from a higher power are instilled for the purpose of controlling the population with fear of false consequence. Instead of potentially catching up to that dangling carrot in front of you, you can expect to live an eternity having that carrot reamed in and out of your asshole!!! So be good.......



.....or else!!!


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## TreWatson (Aug 9, 2010)

Cygnus said:


> Its funny how Christians wear their religion on their sleeves, but if an Atheist dares to do the same he is chastized. Especially when it comes to the mass media, who are only out to make money, and to do so they cater to whatever majority there is. Or the majority they create.
> 
> Millions of Americans, sitting glassy-eyed in front of a TV and laughing at someone who is different than them. There's America for you.


 I have no problem with anyone who is openly one religion or lifestyle, or even evangelizes it, but the issue i see with most Atheists is that a lot in my community ( I'm being specific because this isn't the case everywhere) and on about 85% of the websites I'm on are people who are atheist for the sake of attacking christians or any other Theistic Religion.

or worse, kids being atheist because their Parents are christian.

nothing wrong with atheism, but I feel like it should be an informed decision, much like any religion should be.


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## Toshiro (Aug 9, 2010)

Those atheist "groups" are too much like going to a fucking church. Might as well sign up for mass.

I don't believe in god(s), therefore I don't give a fuck if you do or don't. Little kids believe in Santa, it's not my place to worry about them. 

As for ABC, I try not to watch network TV, it rots the mind.


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## TreWatson (Aug 9, 2010)

Toshiro said:


> Those atheist "groups" are too much like going to a fucking church. Might as well sign up for mass.
> 
> I don't believe in god(s), therefore I don't give a fuck if you do or don't. Little kids believe in Santa, it's not my place to worry about them.
> 
> As for ABC, I try not to watch network TV, it rots the mind.


 cable is worse


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## Toshiro (Aug 9, 2010)

TreKita said:


> cable is worse



I could count on one hand the number of shows I watch on TV, and most are on "educational" channels.


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## TreWatson (Aug 9, 2010)

Toshiro said:


> I could count on one hand the number of shows I watch on TV, and most are on "educational" channels.


i watch a lot of spike.

y'know, stuff i dont have to think about.

totally brainless


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## Daggorath (Aug 9, 2010)

Alot of religious people are not open to listening to what atheists have to say because they are scared that they might talk sense. When you've spent your whole life devoted to something, you must fear that it will all be shown to be hoccum - and you've wasted the one life you have. It takes alot of bollocks to come out in a religious community/family and admit that things just don't add up anymore.


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## Konfyouzd (Aug 9, 2010)

Daggorath said:


> Alot of religious people are not open to listening to what atheists have to say because they are scared that they might talk sense. When you've spent your whole life devoted to something, you must fear that it will all be shown to be hoccum - and you've wasted the one life you have. It takes alot of bollocks to come out in a religious community/family and admit that things just don't add up anymore.


 
I'm not sure I agree. I think many religious folks avoid atheists for the same reason atheists avoid religious folks. They're not in the mood for the inevitable headache brought on by another stalemate...


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## TreWatson (Aug 9, 2010)

Konfyouzd said:


> I'm not sure I agree. I think many religious folks avoid atheists for the same reason atheists avoid religious folks. They're not in the mood for the inevitable headache brought on by another stalemate...


I'm inclined to agree here.

it's not that i don't get what you're saying daggorath, but the way you worded that kinda comes off like Religious folk are totally incapable of sense and that when an atheist says something plausible, it is sense/fact.

or at least that's how it came off to me.

for the record I'm neither. I'm just happy to sit on the sidelines with my own opinions and agenda and watch the madness when both sides KNOW they're right, rather than just thinking it and respectfully disagreeing with someone else.

I've seen nearly as many atheist arguments blown to bits by religious scholars ( read: not clergymen, just people who actually study what they read) as i have Theistic viewpoints trumped by common sense and science.

I constantly say this to the kids i taught in sunday school who argue this who are like 16-17: (mom teaches sunday school, and i don't mind going and teaching bible stories and whatnot when she's out)

much of the bible is figurative.

taking the literal and explaining it, doesn't necessarily trump the figurative.

now the people who argue over this going in circles because of 2 things that are from 2 different worlds.

"i have a theory that we can;t test on the macro scale, but it makes sense, so it must be right"

"magical sky wizard, i win"

makes no sense, and because they were never meant to fight each other, it goes on forever.

it's like trying to say your dog is strong, but I say my pokemon could kill your dog.

we'll never really know, will we?

Science + religion =/= the end of the world.


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## techcoreriffman (Aug 9, 2010)

Me being in a very religious (read: CATHOLIC AS HELL) family, it's very difficult for me to express myself the way I would like to. My mom is still fixed on "You're only saying that you're agnostic for attention. We raised you too well to be anything but Catholic" after almost a year. It's also very hard to even attempt to explain to her why I feel this way. She just uses the "God is only testing you card" for every question I have for her. "Why, if God is so good and perfect, is there war, famine, hatred, racism, indecensy, bigotry and disease?" "God is only testing you, sweety." "What about the people that all these things have murdered? Was God testing them too? Did they fail his test, and that's his punishment?!" "I don't know, he works in mysterious ways"  That shit goes on for hours.


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## TreWatson (Aug 9, 2010)

do this, and see if it doesn't make her re-think this:

"mom, my religious choice is deeply personal and important to me. I love you, but you're forcing something your beliefs on me."

and if she tries to push it, you can always just inform her that you can fake christian, but you're going to believe what you choose in the end, so it's pretty pointless.

also, to the whole " why does x, y, and z that's bad exist?"

God is Right and Just, God's not some magical tooth fairy or santa claus.

just like you, you should do what's RIGHT, it may not always bethe GOOD thing to do.

it's simple Justice stuff.

if someone does bad, you stop them and use force if you have to. is it good? not really. is it right? yeah.


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## techcoreriffman (Aug 9, 2010)

I've tried doing stuff like that. It doesn't work. She still thinks that I'm just doing it for attention, because I'm also "too smart to not be Catholic." And all this other bullshit. She still makes me go to church, pray the rosary and all this other stuff and expects me to be happy. When I object and say that it makes me uncomfortable she tells me to be quiet and enjoy worshipping "our true God". My dad has even argued with her about how I can be whatever the hell I feel like and she shouldn't push it and she tells him that "I'll go to hell if he keeps talking like that". I can't wait to get away from her.


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## TreWatson (Aug 9, 2010)

techcoreriffman said:


> I've tried doing stuff like that. It doesn't work. She still thinks that I'm just doing it for attention, because I'm also "too smart to not be Catholic." And all this other bullshit. She still makes me go to church, pray the rosary and all this other stuff and expects me to be happy. When I object and say that it makes me uncomfortable she tells me to be quiet and enjoy worshipping "our true God". My dad has even argued with her about how I can be whatever the hell I feel like and she shouldn't push it and she tells him that "I'll go to hell if he keeps talking like that". I can't wait to get away from her.


 just chill out dude.

honestly, it's not that big a deal.

our old lead vocalist is a strict (and vocal) atheist and still prayed with us out of RESPECT. he doesn;t believei n god, But he understands that for other families prayer is a big bonding thing.

so if anything, just do it to humor your mom, because she IS your mom and at least deserves a little respect.

if you're phoning it in or not, i really doubt mama will care. haha, and if she can tell, then i dunno what else to tell you. i considered the God thing a fairytale from age 15-18, until i sat and looked stuff up. and mom's a strict christian, i just kept it up because i'm going to be respectful ( and keep the heat off my back)

now that i'm 21, mom doesn't care. I still go to church, but it's in case people behind the scenes need my help wit shit.

its not a huge deal homie. fake it for mom, but believe what you believe.

you won't melt if you say a few prayers you don't even attach any meaning to. lol


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## eegor (Aug 9, 2010)

The problem I see most of the time is the desire for everyone to feel the need to change each other. And yes, I see how the following post can be viewed as exactly that, but that's not what I'm going for. I consider myself a Christian, so I'll start out with my view of other Christians. I am not at all the prime example of the Christian faith, and I'm not trying to pass judgement, just make an observation. 

Going to a Baptist school and attending a Baptist church for a long time (not anymore, I've changed to a more progressive setting), I've seen quite a bit of judgement and prejudice against athiests, and for that matter other religions. The idea of love and acceptance that we (Christians) tend to brag about tends to be overshadowed by a shroud of hate and hypocracy. I am not exempt. I've seen a war-like mentality against "non-believers" and the like, trying to set out and eliminate the evil. This has given the Christian faith a horrible face and reputation. I've come to see that this mentality is what leads certain religious figures to embark on large, public media campaigns against certain "evils" such as homosexuality and abortion. They've taken teachings and abused them in order to make a name for themselves.

That being said, I think the same is true (to a different degree) among non-religious figures. They believe that God is not real and that religious people are wasting their time. As humans, we have the right to believe whatever we want, and I have no problem with this. I also believe that criticizing and making fun of religion because it's crazy or make-believe is the opposite of what we need to be doing right now. Disagreement fuels progress and innovation, but conflict, ridicule, and alienation stifles it. Religious affiliation, in my opinion, should be seen as no different to voting republican or democrat, spurs or celtics, mac or pc, or any other difference in opinion. It's a choice, just like the majority of other things in this world (excluded are gender, race, birth parents, death, etc.), and just because someone makes one choice based on their preferences and beliefs, it doesn't warrant being attacked by those who disagree.

Basically, I just don't understand why anyone feels the need to attack or ridicule how "wrong" anyone else is about religious beliefs. It doesn't make sense to me. Christianity proclaims love but doesn't act on it. A fatal error. Non-religious belief advocates intelligence and common sense, yet belittles every person of faith due to a few outspoken religious figures. And I don't mean to accuse any single person. The majority of this applies to the more prominent and well-know figures in society and their tactics. I know a ton of Christians who love and accept everyone unconditionally, as well as some of the coolest and non-judgemental athiests anyone could ever meet.

In summary, I believe that belief is subjective. Everyone sees the world differently, and although a lot of people get out of hand with their beliefs, whatever they may be, I just don't understand the judgement that goes on in today's world.


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## TreWatson (Aug 9, 2010)

well said.


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## CrushingAnvil (Aug 12, 2010)

I agree with eegor. If the move to fanaticism in the Christian religion never happened and people really were as great as Jesus was said to be, you could walk right up to a Christian and have a conversation about how they are from the Christian persuasion and how You are an Atheist and it would all be very pleasant. I don't think the hypocrisy and bigottry is going to end any time soon guys.

With all due respect to eegor - One would have liked all of this Religiosity to be dead and gone. If the whole earth consisted of Rationalists, I think we would be a very peaceful race...although without conflict of religion, beliefs, race and politics - Humans wouldn't be the expressive, sentient beings they are today.


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## TreWatson (Aug 13, 2010)

CrushingAnvil said:


> I agree with eegor. If the move to fanaticism in the Christian religion never happened and people really were as great as Jesus was said to be, you could walk right up to a Christian and have a conversation about how they are from the Christian persuasion and how You are an Atheist and it would all be very pleasant. I don't think the hypocrisy and bigottry is going to end any time soon guys.
> 
> With all due respect to eegor - One would have liked all of this Religiosity to be dead and gone. If the whole earth consisted of Rationalists, I think we would be a very peaceful race...although without conflict of religion, beliefs, race and politics - Humans wouldn't be the expressive, sentient beings they are today.


 

So what you're saying is...

...religion is a necessary evil?


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## Konfyouzd (Aug 13, 2010)

I think it's a necessary evil to an extent, but I don't think it's the key to us being expressive sentient beings.


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## CrushingAnvil (Aug 16, 2010)

TreKita said:


> So what you're saying is...
> 
> ...religion is a necessary evil?



Kind of...though if we had been rationalists since the first tribe of homo erectus, I don't think we'd have metal


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## Nights_Blood (Aug 16, 2010)

Well said, eegor.



Konfyouzd said:


> I think it's a necessary evil to an extent, but I don't think it's the key to us being expressive sentient beings.



I definitely agree that religion is not essential to us being, as it has been said, "expressive sentient beings", but as far as being a necessary evil, i wouldn't say that's true per se. Rather than fully-structured religion, i would say that the moral aspects of it, such as basic guidelines for living (e.g. discouraging any type of malicious acts) and being taught sympathy and respect for your fellow man (and other lifeforms) are what I would consider the requirements for a peaceful, civilized society.




CrushingAnvil said:


> Kind of...though if we had been rationalists since the first tribe of homo erectus, I don't think we'd have metal




True! I hadn't thought of that.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Aug 16, 2010)

TreKita said:


> So what you're saying is...
> 
> ...religion is a necessary evil?



Maybe for people who need a crutch, can't think for themselves, or both.



TreKita said:


> just chill out dude.
> 
> honestly, it's not that big a deal.
> 
> ...



So, he should pray with them out of respect, when they can't respect his decision? Fuck that.

Be firm with her. You don't need to be an asshole, but just be firm, stand your ground, and ignore her when she tries to start shit.


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## Nights_Blood (Aug 16, 2010)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> So, he should pray with them out of respect, when they can't respect his decision? Fuck that.
> 
> Be firm with her. You don't need to be an asshole, but just be firm, stand your ground, and ignore her when she tries to start shit.



I agree, but I can see why Tre said what he said. 

While he shouldn't be forced to have to go to church or pray if neither hold any significance to him personally, the fact is that he's 15, and unless he's got a pretty good head start, he's gonna be living under that roof for the next couple of years. From what he posted (i mean no offense, TechCoreRiffMan, just referring to what you said), the way portrayed his mom made it sound as though she's pretty close-minded and dismissive of what he has to say. With that in mind, i wouldn't really think it would be worth making a huge deal over. Basically, as Tre said, try to keep the heat off his back.

Now, Tre mentioned he prayed with his bandmates out of respect, which i can totally understand. I did the same when I played baseball. It wasn't about conforming, it was about letting everyone know that you're pulling from the same rope.

Like I said, I do agree with you JJ, and I definitely think he should be firm. If his dad has his back, I don't think he'll have a hard time getting his mom to respect his wishes.


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## MF_Kitten (Aug 16, 2010)

when i´m dining with a christian family, and it´s prayer time, i just sit in silence while they do their thing. should they ask, i´ll just tell them i´m not religious, and therefore don´t pray. if they want me to keep respecting their religion, they´ll have to respect me not having one. it´s as simple as that.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Aug 16, 2010)

MF_Kitten said:


> when i´m dining with a christian family, and it´s prayer time, i just sit in silence while they do their thing. should they ask, i´ll just tell them i´m not religious, and therefore don´t pray. if they want me to keep respecting their religion, they´ll have to respect me not having one. it´s as simple as that.



This is the best stance to take. Don't be militant about it, unless push comes to shove.



Nights_Blood said:


> I agree, but I can see why Tre said what he said.
> 
> While he shouldn't be forced to have to go to church or pray if neither hold any significance to him personally, the fact is that he's 15, and unless he's got a pretty good head start, he's gonna be living under that roof for the next couple of years. From what he posted (i mean no offense, TechCoreRiffMan, just referring to what you said), the way portrayed his mom made it sound as though she's pretty close-minded and dismissive of what he has to say. With that in mind, i wouldn't really think it would be worth making a huge deal over. Basically, as Tre said, try to keep the heat off his back.
> 
> ...



I still wouldn't give in. Maybe that's just me, I can't submit blindly to authority, maybe that's why I'm not religious to begin with 

If his dad has his back, then yeah, I don't think he'll have too many problems, but I wouldn't give in. I like sleeping in on Sundays too much


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## CrushingAnvil (Aug 16, 2010)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> This is the best stance to take. Don't be militant about it, unless push comes to shove.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"S'all good...Dad'll just beat the balls out of mum if She starts any shit"


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## cwhitey2 (Aug 16, 2010)

I'm atheist and i love it. The fact that people base all their religious beliefs on a book people wrote blows my mind (Christians anyways). I understand most people need something to believe in, but not me. It's all a scam to take your money, and for what so you can pay to confess your sins? If i give money to the church i want them to use it help poor people, but when they use it for cover-ups that's a whole other story. I went to church for 12 years and i can never see myself going again, just for that fact i think it is waste of time and money, ie if you want to go to a catholic church they take 10% of your whole pay check (every paycheck), when you die, if you want to get buried in the catholic cemetery they take 10% of you estate. So you pay your whole life and then you pay even when your dead  . its like a never ending money pit. And pretty much 95% of the Catholic's i know (using them as an example cause their arnt to many other around me) are the biggest hypocrites i know, oh wait i forgot...their sins get washed away once a week. And beside thats, science is much more logical to me... all i have to say is evolution!


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## ibbyfreak13 (Aug 16, 2010)

i simply cant stand people who push their views and opinions on either side, both christian and atheists. its not right for them push god on us but at the same time we cant sit there and tell them they are stupid for what they believe in, that just doing what we say we hate about them. let shit be. if you dont believe fine, i dont, but im not going to tell someone they are dumb for beleiving in something that makes them feel better. as i would hope they wont say im dumb for not see things their way.
the more we fight about this the less chance we have for a change in the whole matter, cant come to an understanding if its a constant fight.


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## techcoreriffman (Aug 16, 2010)

JJ, my dad has my back, but he doesn't have much say around here. He's almost always at work. (12 hour swing shift, so he's either working or asleep) So his help doesn't really help much. 

Just a quick example though, my mom and I had just had ANOTHER argument. And I said that I would like it if she would just respect my decision as much as I try to respect hers. Later that night she made me come into the family room from playing guitar and lead prayer. Like, not a recited prayer, but sit down, with the whole family and thank her magical sky wizard for everything good in my life. Then she said to pray for stuff that should get better. I said "And I pray for tolerance in our household, Amen" and left. I know that's a dick move, but if she's not going to respect me, I shouldn't respect her either I feel like.


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## Demiurge (Aug 17, 2010)

ibbyfreak13 said:


> i simply cant stand people who push their views and opinions on either side, both christian and atheists. its not right for them push god on us but at the same time we cant sit there and tell them they are stupid for what they believe in, that just doing what we say we hate about them. let shit be. if you dont believe fine, i dont, but im not going to tell someone they are dumb for beleiving in something that makes them feel better. as i would hope they wont say im dumb for not see things their way.
> the more we fight about this the less chance we have for a change in the whole matter, cant come to an understanding if its a constant fight.



If it were a political matter, where yammering on both sides ensures that the longer the dialog the less helpful it will be, I would feel the same way. 

Religion is different. Throughout history, we have constantly been driven toward the precipice of extinction by opposing factions in what amounts to spiritual pissing matches. I am not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish yet I am very aware that my interests- including my safety- may (if not already) be harmed in the crossfire between those groups. I am not a religious person, but I could die in a terrorist attack or because of an act of war that was green-lighted by a religious fanatic. That doesn't sit well.

Since religions can't keep their hands to themselves and insist on insisting themselves on the world, I only think it's fair and necessary for atheism to be more than just a passive position. Atheism is not a religion unto itself and it's not even an ideology, but there needs to be a counterbalance to religion that reminds it that its existence is an indulgence to our superstitions and knocks it down a few pegs when it gets too big for its ontological britches. 

There is a big world outside of religion, and those of us who want to live in that world would rather not have religion disturb it or (more likely) destroy it.


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## Konfyouzd (Aug 17, 2010)

MF_Kitten said:


> when i´m dining with a christian family, and it´s prayer time, i just sit in silence while they do their thing. should they ask, i´ll just tell them i´m not religious, and therefore don´t pray. if they want me to keep respecting their religion, they´ll have to respect me not having one. it´s as simple as that.


 
Funny... I choose not to accept a religion at the moment for various reasons. My family seems to like to try to subconsciously drill it into my head anyway. Whenever we go out to restaurants they always want to bow their heads, hold hands and pray and I feel very odd doing this as I don't believe in anything the prayer says. What's more, if God is real I don't think you *have* to publicly proclaim your faith constantly to gain his/her/its favor... Then again, how would I know? 

My parents know I don't believe in God and while they try to act cool w/ it they're clearly not. All they talk about is wanting me to come to church w/ them and when I have kids to make sure they know about God. Drives me batty but I figure as long as I don't say anything offensive I can pretty much just "ignore" it. 

@Dem- I dig what you're saying, but realistically we all live in the same world. Trying to divide ourselves into separate worlds that counterbalance each other rather than trying to find a way to peacefully coexist despite differences in opinion will only perpetuate the problem, in my eyes.


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## TreWatson (Aug 17, 2010)

techcoreriffman said:


> JJ, my dad has my back, but he doesn't have much say around here. He's almost always at work. (12 hour swing shift, so he's either working or asleep) So his help doesn't really help much.
> 
> Just a quick example though, my mom and I had just had ANOTHER argument. And I said that I would like it if she would just respect my decision as much as I try to respect hers. Later that night she made me come into the family room from playing guitar and lead prayer. Like, not a recited prayer, but sit down, with the whole family and thank her magical sky wizard for everything good in my life. Then she said to pray for stuff that should get better. I said "And I pray for tolerance in our household, Amen" and left. I know that's a dick move, but if she's not going to respect me, I shouldn't respect her either I feel like.


like i was trying to get across the last timne adressed it, it sounds like it doesn;t have all that much to do with religion...

it just sounds like your mom is making you do something you don't want to do because you don't believe in it, so it pisses you off.

i'm willing to bet it would be the same thing if you were democrat and she made you go to republican meetings/rallies with her

or if you wanted a PC, and she refused to buy you a computer from anywhere but the apple store.

i'm not saying that you're wrong for disagreeing, don't get me wrong. you're allowed to think and feel how you want.

but you're in your teen years. disagreeing with your parents is just kinda... what happens. o___o

also, @Demiurge, keep in mind that religion isn;t the cause of a lot of the wars, the cause for wars was extremism and good public speaking.

...every group that spurred extremists had a charismatic public leader who was good at twisting the text around to their own agenda and brainwashing the masses into THINKING it was for religion.

case in point: keep in mind that the worst mass genocide ever, the Holocaust was not spurred by Religion, nor did they persecute solely on religion. it was a nationality thing, and Hitler twisted words around because of immigration to 

"hey, we're blonde bluwe-eyed people, why are there turks and jews and immigrants taking all of our jobs and money? LET'S TAKE IT BACK"

...that sounded eerily like the american south for a minute there o____O

so the whole " religion causes war thing Is kind of a moot point.

the only exception being the Crusades, but even in that instance it was using the religion as a forefront when the actual cause was LAND ACQUISITION.

so if anything, religion is more of a scapegoat for war than a source.


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## Konfyouzd (Aug 17, 2010)

TreKita said:


> like i was trying to get across the last timne adressed it, it sounds like it doesn;t have all that much to do with religion...
> 
> it just sounds like your mom is making you do something you don't want to do because you don't believe in it, so it pisses you off.
> 
> ...


 
Nice assessment.


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## TreWatson (Aug 17, 2010)

Konfyouzd said:


> Nice assessment.


 I Tried.

i mean, i don't have an issue with disagreement, it's how sjit gets DONE and settled, but especially on internet forums, so many people make baseless, ignorant, uninformed and downright, disrespectful comments to others.

I was reading something where even through a screenname, the anonymity of the internet make you view others as though they are not human, and sometimes statements ring out as such.

people suddenly lose perspective of the humanity of other people

and while i see religious people saying silly untrue and disrespectful things about atheists, it is by far more the atheists i see stating actual ATTACKING statements. 

I'm neither Religious nor an atheist or agnostic. i don't subscribe to anything, I have my own developed Theism / theological identity.

i just think it's terrible that when you combine religion and anonymity, we all become apes.


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## helly (Aug 17, 2010)

Nights_Blood said:


> No. That is agnosticism. Atheism is very specifically the rejection of the existence of gods, which means that they are NOT open to being convinced otherwise. So in a sense, atheism DOES resemble religion, even if it is by definition, an anti-religion.
> 
> Which is precisely why I am agnostic. Atheists will ridicule any form of deity worship, but I fail to see how one can just say that there is absolutely no form of higher power and leave it at that. Personally, I think there's way too much unexplainable shit that happens to be sure one way or the other. I mean...fucking quasars are INSANE man.



Had to stop reading the thread and reply here.

Wrong, wrong wrong.

While yes, atheism is the active denial of a god, it is impossibly thick to suggest that we wouldn't accept evidence in the positive, if it was valid.

Atheism is level on a sliding scale of theistic probability, as suggested by Richard Dawkins, where at the most committed end, you have what would be a 7 of 7, where you won't take anything other than absolute proof of god's existence; essentially you _know_ there is no god, and short of being proven entirely wrong, you will continue to know there is no god. Dawkins, myself and many other atheists would be a 6 of 7. The existence of god is so improbable as to approach zero, but because there is not absolute proof of the lack of his existence, only a large amount of evidence, it cannot be completely discounted. However, as a 6, the probability of his lack of existence is so high in my mind that I live as though he does not exist until the scales tip well in the direction of the positive.

To quote about true impartial agnosticism as it compares to a higher scale of agnostic atheism, I'd quote Dawkins again:

"I am an agnostic only to the extent that I am agnostic about fairies at the bottom of the garden."

Much like the celestial teapot theory (there is a teapot orbiting the earth but it is too small to be seen by anybody and no current science can prove its existence), these fairies, just like god, _could_ exist, but it's so unlikely without having some way to provide evidence of it other than another person's word, that I do not abide it as truth.


Give this a read:

Spectrum of theistic probability - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## TreWatson (Aug 17, 2010)

helly said:


> Had to stop reading the thread and reply here.
> 
> Wrong, wrong wrong.
> 
> ...


 +rep

thanks for the post, and for not attacking anyone. haha.


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## EcoliUVA (Aug 17, 2010)

TreKita said:


> I Tried.
> 
> i mean, i don't have an issue with disagreement, it's how sjit gets DONE and settled, but especially on internet forums, so many people make baseless, ignorant, uninformed and downright, disrespectful comments to others.
> 
> ...


 
Truth. Words from a clearly self-enlightened man who has done his own homework.

Having read this entire thread due to a pressing desire to blow off my job, I'll make the general comment that more people should follow Tre's path and make their own assesments before accepting general statements as truth. I've been heavily into this process myself for about 4 months now (partially due to the above mentioned need to blow off actual work...haha). There's a SHITLOAD of information out there on Atheism, Christianity, Buddhism, Kabbalah, Quantum Physics, Evolution...all kinds of "what the hell is all this" info. Hop-to! 

Of course, finding good sources can be tricky, so cross-referencing all of the above is a necessary evil. Keep an open mind!


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## lava (Aug 18, 2010)




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## All_¥our_Bass (Aug 27, 2010)

envenomedcky said:


> ... but somehow, religious people can never leave me alone about my beliefs. It's quite annoying.


Many religions encourage their worshipers to convert non-believers.
Ever bump into some Jehova's Witnesses?
Those guys are practically famous for pestering people.


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## MFB (Aug 27, 2010)

All_¥our_Bass;2115263 said:


> Many religions encourage their worshipers to convert non-believers.
> Ever bump into some Jehova's Witnesses?
> Those guys are practically famous for pestering people.



No.

I have actually never, EVER, seen a Jehovah's Witness with my own two eyes


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## EcoliUVA (Aug 27, 2010)

MFB said:


> No.
> 
> I have actually never, EVER, seen a Jehovah's Witness with my own two eyes


 
They're known for their 3 inch fangs, beady eyes, and horns.

Here's a sketch I drew for public awareness:







Because knowing is half the battle.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Aug 28, 2010)

MFB said:


> No.
> 
> I have actually never, EVER, seen a Jehovah's Witness with my own two eyes


Be glad you haven't.


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## eegor (Aug 29, 2010)

I agree with Tre's comments. Religion is one thing, and then there are the people who abuse it.


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## Knossos (Aug 29, 2010)

Any faith based off cripple-murdering, gay killing, woman hating and the deeply worrying antics of Moses is pretty naturally going to be fairly invasive if people take it seriously.


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## shredfreak (Aug 29, 2010)

^ 

With what's going on in Belgium atm makes christianity more of a cussword really 



MFB said:


> No.
> 
> I have actually never, EVER, seen a Jehovah's Witness with my own two eyes



Dude, those are the funniest guys you'll ever meet resorting to everything they can (even if it's downright silly) to support their claims.

It's a very know sport for some ppl (such as myself included) to question them and drive them in the corner like a rat. Easiest way to do is to ask wheter we're all a bunch of inbreeds since there were only 2 (adam & eve) in the beginning and now there's a whole bunch of us fuckers. Then sit back & enjoy the show 

On another topic. 

Christianity (and islam aswell) is nothing more then a redundant watered down version of ancient mesopotamian era religion (pretty much one of the first written down ones). Judaism did nothing more then pick their favorite god out of the whole bunch & labelled the rest as demons/devils (Islam simply picked another one).

The "entity" so to call it we know today by Christianity as their god is some 6th rank (or 7th even, can't remember for sure) nobody and they labelled his brother as the devil.

Never really though about it untill reading this topic but ppl who go to catholic schools will read little to nothing about those civilization purely because of that. I went to one myself in highschool and the stuff we had to learn about the greeks & romans was a shitload (had to memorize all of the gods too ). 

Mesopotamia was more like, they existed & then went away. Although it gives much more entertaining reading then either greek or roman gods really. Those fuckers were just downright vivious


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## C2Aye (Aug 29, 2010)

My dad is a surgeon and once he had to let a Jehovah's witness bleed to death on the operating table because their religion doesn't allow them to take blood transfusions. Nice to know that God is out for you...

On a more serious note, I take the view that since religions are man made things, then when you blame religion for problems, you are indirectly blaming mankind itself. I disagree in the view that religion is the cause of problems; if you take away religion, then there are so many other things like resources and ethnic differences that would make us bash each other across the heads. It is simply a product of human nature. And regardless of whether God is real or not, the version that people believe in here is very certainly man made.

I also feel that Aethism can be annoying. Richard Dawkins particularly annoys me, telling people what to think. You can't tell someone what to think, they are free to choose if they want to be religious, no matter how much you disagree with them. To be honest, an extremist Aethist would be just as bad as a Christian or Islamic one. "Death to the believers" or something like that, I guess.

As long as they don't tell others what to think or do, religious people should be allowed to believe in whatever they want, as long as they don't affect other people's lives in a negative way. Obviously, there are many who act in the name of a religion who do a lot of bad too and they need to be dealt with accordingly by law. Like Catholic priests who fondle little boys. No cover ups please, straight on the sex offenders register and off to jail you pop.

By the way, I'm a Buddhist


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## poopyalligator (Aug 29, 2010)

I think it is sad that in todays society people call YOU crazy for not believing in god. The way i see it, is that if you really believe a man took two of every animal in the world and put them on a big boat across the world, I simply dont think your opinion should matter to anybody about common sense.


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## Demiurge (Aug 30, 2010)

C2Aye said:


> I also feel that Aethism can be annoying. ... You can't tell someone what to think, they are free to choose if they want to be religious, no matter how much you disagree with them. To be honest, an extremist Aethist would be just as bad as a Christian or Islamic one. "Death to the believers" or something like that, I guess.
> 
> As long as they don't tell others what to think or do, religious people should be allowed to believe in whatever they want, as long as they don't affect other people's lives in a negative way.



I agree- people shouldn't be told what to think. I would add that attempting to make a persuasive argument to support a position isn't telling people what to think, either. People should think for themselves and not feel captive to cultural dogma, and some atheists will contend that if you apply logic and reason to religion then you may be compelled to discredit it. That is all. 

The "extremist Atheist" is a total straw man- detractors always try to equivocate atheism with a religion so they can apply the negative characterization of religious fanatics to atheists. Why would atheists want to kill people for an arbitrary reason- if anything atheists taking a more humanist approach would argue that religion often serves as the prejudice that inspires violence for arbitrary reasons.

Most religions tell people what to think or do. They also have a tendency to identify enemies of that religion and serving justification for the adherents of that religion to act towards those perceived enemies "in a negative way."


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## ElRay (Aug 30, 2010)

shredfreak said:


> Judaism did nothing more then pick their favorite god out of the whole bunch & labelled the rest as demons/devils (Islam simply picked another one).


Not quite. Christians believe in the same God as Jews, they just believe that this dude Jesus is the Son of God and the whole three-in-one deal. Muslims believe in the same God and Jesus, but Jesus is merely the a great, but not the greatest, prophet (Mohamed is the greatest prophet).

It's like folks that go to the same school district, but argue whether elementary, middle or high school is better.

Ray


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## ElRay (Aug 30, 2010)

poopyalligator said:


> I think it is sad that in todays society people call YOU crazy for not believing in god...


and what's even worse, is that you have to agree with their nonsense, and can't disagree, or you're the one causing problems and persecuting them.

Ray


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## Konfyouzd (Aug 30, 2010)

^ This is why I believe (or disbelieve) silently avoid religious/political conversations w/ ppl I don't know (and in some cases even the ones I *do* know) as much as possible...


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## Waelstrum (Aug 30, 2010)

^ I agree, or if it comes up, I try to speak objectively and not 'take a side' unless directly asked.


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## PeteyG (Aug 30, 2010)

C2Aye said:


> I also feel that Atheism can be annoying. Richard Dawkins particularly annoys me, telling people what to think. You can't tell someone what to think, they are free to choose if they want to be religious, no matter how much you disagree with them. To be honest, an extremist Atheist would be just as bad as a Christian or Islamic one. "Death to the believers" or something like that, I guess.



There's a big difference between telling people what to think, and listing peoples beliefs and then pointing out why they are ludicrous and downright stupid with regards to observable and proof based reality. 

Dawkins annoys me too, but not once have I seen any clips of him actively telling people precisely what to think.


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## Konfyouzd (Aug 30, 2010)

Waelstrum said:


> ^ I agree, or if it comes up, I try to speak objectively and not 'take a side' unless directly asked.


 
That's typically when ppl try to FORCE you to take a position which is the really annoying part. 

"Did it ever occur to you that I might not care about these things? What are your opinions on 6 stringed vs 7 stringed guitars? Oh you don't care about that? Imagine that..."


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## C2Aye (Aug 30, 2010)

Konfyouzd said:


> That's typically when ppl try to FORCE you to take a position which is the really annoying part.
> 
> "Did it ever occur to you that I might not care about these things? What are your opinions on 6 stringed vs 7 stringed guitars? Oh you don't care about that? Imagine that..."



Not caring is a cool view as well


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## adelewhite321 (Sep 2, 2010)

envenomedcky said:


> This is how it is the majority of the time, and I hate it. I try as hard as possible to stay out of religious debates, but somehow, religious people can never leave me alone about my beliefs. It's quite annoying.



I feel you brother! religious people usually think they are 'blessed' and we are 'cursed' so they can talk shit to us!


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## shredfreak (Sep 2, 2010)

adelewhite321 said:


> I feel you brother! religious people usually think they are 'blessed' and we are 'cursed' so they can talk shit to us!



Kind of a sad (or ironic even?) thing that most of these 'blessed' people don't know half as well what's in the bible. They can't accept the fact that they don't believe any of the half assed crap that's in there bacause they know it's there.

And why would any person in his right mind believe it anyways what's in there? The thing has been censored beyond all recognition across the span of about 2 millenia... It would be cool though to see a comparison between the poor excuse of a bible we have today & the real thing as it was created, only to see how extremely it's been alteraded & how much has been deleted. It'll probably be like comparing the nation registry to a home phonebook 

Most entertaining read for me was the book of enoch though, wich has been deleted from it for quite some then.

And last, forging "evidance" proves how sad christians are tbh ... the shroud being the most obvious one to point out from it and the mystical healing in lourdes being questionable at best really. 

Do they still do those healing ceremonies with priests in the usa? if so i'll be flat on the floor lolling my ass off 

With the current spree of pedofile priests it's quite shocking aswell really. if you do that math the amount of cases in the usa would be around 27500 (550ish in belgium & since we're only the size of a small state times 50). The church can & hopefully will be prosecuted as a criminal organisation.

To finally say something on topic  (sorry for the rant)

It wouldn't surprize me in the slightest that Kagan knows a lot more about christianity & the bible then that poor reporter really.


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## eegor (Sep 3, 2010)

adelewhite321 said:


> I feel you brother! religious people usually think they are 'blessed' and we are 'cursed' so they can talk shit to us!



In some cases I agree with you. My friend put it a good way one time: people who don't believe the same things we believe in, almost by definition, don't have the same morals or standards that we have. It's absolutely ludicrous to criticize someone for not upholding the much stricter morals that we Christians try to convey if they don't believe in it. It's incredibly hypocritical. I was taught (by my private Christian education - honestly it took me away from faith more than making it stronger) to be offended by non-believers and their "non-Christain ways." I see now how misguided that is. I'm actually really comfortable with people now that I've gone against what's been drilled in my head and accepted differing world-views.


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## ElRay (Sep 3, 2010)

ElRay said:


> poopyalligator said:
> 
> 
> > I think it is sad that in todays society people call YOU crazy for not believing in god...
> ...



Oh wow. I got neg repped for my reply:


somebody too chicken to sign their neg rep said:


> your opinions are not fact, don't be a dick.


Interesting, there were no opinions in my post, just a statement regrading events that have occurred, in other words, a fact. Thank you anonymous bible thumper for clearly illustrating how illogical and hypocritical religious folks can be.

Ray


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## CrushingAnvil (Sep 11, 2010)

It's the worst when You actually have the capacity to know there is no god and that there is no proof that Jesus of Nazareth could heal people - because You get in to these conversations with people and You just think "I wish I could free you...".

I hope I'll live to see the day when humanity is freed from these chains...


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## mmr007 (Sep 11, 2010)

well.....there is no way to have a rational conversation about religion or absence of because mostly, people aren't rational about that subject. That's why people ask what FAITH you are not what FACT you are.....everything is all faith based and "knowing in your heart" that something is true...just like I know in my heart that I have the winning lottery ticket numbers....

oh wait, I don't even have a lottery ticket because the lottery is illegal in alabama because bible thumpers want it that way...

oh and strip clubs in alabama can't have naked women in them because bible thumpers want it that way

oh and in 7 states in America an atheist can legally hold public office or testify in court because the bible thumpers want it that way

oh and in alabama you can ONLY get softcore porn on cable or satellite because the bible thumpers think every channel on a tv belongs to them...

oh and gay marriage is illegal because the bible thumpers want it that way

and so is stem cell research funding

inteesting that christians just know that all that is wrong, yet they commit sins everyday themselves

Have you eaten at red lobster? You're a sinner as eating shellfish is a sin....wear two types oh cloth? Maybe denim jeans and a cotten/polyester blend shirt? SINNER....the list goes on and on


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## CrushingAnvil (Sep 11, 2010)

mmr007 said:


> well.....there is no way to have a rational conversation about religion or absence of because mostly, people aren't rational about that subject. That's why people ask what FAITH you are not what FACT you are.....everything is all faith based and "knowing in your heart" that something is true...just like I know in my heart that I have the winning lottery ticket numbers....
> 
> oh wait, I don't even have a lottery ticket because the lottery is illegal in alabama because bible thumpers want it that way...
> 
> ...



The third to last one, dude you hit the nail on the head.


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## Demiurge (Sep 11, 2010)

mmr007 said:


> well.....there is no way to have a rational conversation about religion or absence of because mostly, people aren't rational about that subject. That's why people ask what FAITH you are not what FACT you are.....everything is all faith based and "knowing in your heart" that something is true...just like I know in my heart that I have the winning lottery ticket numbers....
> 
> oh wait, I don't even have a lottery ticket because the lottery is illegal in alabama because bible thumpers want it that way...
> 
> ...



You bring up some great points. Faith lives outside of reason. It's a deeply-personal thing, and that can be understood and respected. It's supposed to be something that the person hopes will make them a better person. At face value, it's good- it's commendable, even.

The problem is, somehow people common faiths gather to become mobs that try to legislate and make the government move in lockstep with religious dogma. It's a terrible irony that at least in the USA, the political party with the deepest religious contingent is the same party that despises the notion of "big government," but pushes for the government to regulate people so they are in line with Christian morals. When the good-ole gub'ment is poking around in your bedroom, your bookcase, and your woman's uterus- that's way too much.

All of the sudden, it's no longer about the personal, beautiful notion of faith and an individual's relationship with something bigger than they- it becomes a bully pulpit and hotbed for tyranny. When that happens, well, somebody has to push back, and some outspoken atheists have felt it necessary to take that position in these politically-charged times.


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## eegor (Sep 11, 2010)

I feel like all of these power-hungry religious fanatics have created a stereotype that those of us that do belong to a certain faith can't escape. All of those political issues brought up are definitely relevant, but those aren't views held by a lot of us. And I don't think using atheism to resist this movement is the right thing to do. That just further separates and alienates everybody. It shouldn't be an issue of what faith you do or don't belong to, but an issue of which specific people are doing the wrong thing and how to remedy the situation. Trying to solve Christianity with atheism is only going to cause more, absolutely monumental problems. We should try to solve problems with practical solutions, instead. And yes, that does require those of us (Christians, that is) that agree with the fact that these policies are wrong to step up with you and speak out.


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## mmr007 (Sep 12, 2010)

"I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens. Nor should they be considered patriots" - President George H.W. Bush (the "less" retarded one) in 1987

Of course he must not have known I was an atheist or he wouldn't have shook my hand and thanked me for my service when I met him during the Los Angeles riots following the Rodney King trial....guess I should have stripped that Army uniform off and got my unpatriotic ass back to my college dorm where I was getting a degree in Political Science and US International Relations....you know, unpatriotic stuff

But can you imagine if any other class in society, or race or religion was called out by the president as not being worthy of citizenship?

The problem is most idiots confuse atheism with anarchism and think they are interchangable, and they are not. 

Atheists have the SAME exact beliefs as Christians, muslims and jews. We do not believe in RA, Anubis, Odin, Vishnu or any of the 100+ other gods out there....we just decided to add one more to the mix....the God of Abraham

And I think an atheist is a better patriot than a christian. Since it is all on us, we work to make a nation's problem go away, instead of _praying_ that it does.

Atheists are the MOST hated minority in the US and the ONLY thing we've ever done is try to get "In God we trust" taken off of money which was never on there until the Knights of Columbus lobbied to get it put on in the 1940s or 50's

Finally, stop with the Stalin and Hitler examples of atheism run amok. Neither of those two did what they did to advance the cause of atheism but to consolidate their own power and POLITICAL ambitions


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