# How to Develop an Outside Sound



## Wings of Obsidian (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey guys,

So, I've been a fan of guys like Shawn Lane, Jonas Hellborg, Buckethead, Ron "Bumblefoot" Thal, etc. for a long time.

I really enjoy Shawn's old "Power Licks" and "Power Solos" VHS instructionals - and I thought that I'd upload a short clip from one of them.



With that being said, I love Shawn's style, but being a guitarist we all experiment with other artists and learn some of their tricks of the trade, which leads me to a question...

Here is my question: do any of guys have any recommendations for developing an "outside sound" in your soloing and licks? How do you change things up? Rhythmically? Change up note-groupings and phrasing? Use bizarre chromatics or exotic scales? I'm curious into hearing what you guys have to offer on developing something different and "unique" with your sounds.


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## StratoJazz (Feb 17, 2012)

As far as playing outside the chord changes goes, you could do some linear sequencing. If you play an A arpeggio lick over tune in A major and move it up in halfsteps, you can build some tension in your solo. Just make sure you RESOLVE it!

You could also start playing lines that are in a key that's either a tritone away(in this case Eb major) or you could play in a key that's a half step away(Bb or Ab). As you do this your ears will want to resolve back to the key of the song. So if you play in A major for 2 bars, then Bb major for 2-3 your going to want to play in A major for the other 4-5 Bars.

Start with a melodic idea in key, then play a similar idea "out", and then return to the home key of the song with that same idea. In jazz music, you'll play over a common chord progression that's like this.

{Bbmaj7 Gmin7|Cmin7 F7|Dmin7 G7|Cmin7 F7|
Fmin7 Bb7 | Eb7 Edim7|Dmin7 G7|Cmin7 F7| Repeat

The "general" key area(because there are actually very many) is Bb major. If you wanted to create some tension in bars 5-6, you might play in E major and finally resolve back into Bb major around the Dmin7. (D major is also an interesting one to try of those chord changes too.)

Your ears will want to hear the resolution after a period of playing "outside" of the changes. Just practice it over your favorite tunes, or write a vamp and practice playing within the Chord-Scale and then Going "out" of it and coming back.

As far as the Shawn Lane Diminished Licks go, you could use those in sequences, rhythmical invert them some how, or do anything you want to them really. 

I think that you've really answered alot of your own questions just by asking them. Just try and experiment with it man.

-StratoJazz


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## Wings of Obsidian (Feb 17, 2012)

Stratojazz: Studying some of Buckethead's techniques, I see he does alot of linear-type movements going up and down chromatically until he hits a nice scale that he decides to use. (And yes, RESOLVE IT!) I apologize for sounding stupid by answering my own questions by asking it, but I'm just curious about some of the ideas that other musicians on here have and like to use.


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## StratoJazz (Feb 17, 2012)

Wings of Obsidian said:


> I apologize for sounding stupid by answering my own questions by asking it, but I'm just curious about some of the ideas that other musicians on here have and like to use.



Well dude, they're still good questions man. Maybe if some other guys reply they can tell you how they conceptualize it. If not, i'm sure you can find youtube videos and articles as well.

Besides, i was just telling you that you know more about playing "outside" than you think.


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## morrowcosom (Feb 18, 2012)

Be more freeform. There are several ways. 
1) When soloing over a chord progression do not be limited to just playing the notes that make up each chord as they pass. Example: A dude is grooving on a C major triad chord in the key of C major. Conventional music wisdom says play CEG. If you take the notion play an A minor arpeggio over it (ACE). They are both in the major scale. Treat your scales as families of notes Allan Holdsworth advocates this. With power chords just go batshit crazy to taste. 

2) Leave notes out of scales: This gives the scales a lot more character. 

3) Quasi-randomly just simultaneously finger different frets on the guitar based and see what chords you come up with. Slide the shapes up and down to your liking. 

4) Use jarring dissonant chords: I sometimes use chords that are made up of 4 chromatic notes. Just play wherever you fingers lead you and knock the crap out of an extremely dissonant chord. Heck, even add a couple consonant notes and make progressions out of them. 

5) Use wide intervals 

6) Learn polyrhythms and intersperse them into your playing. I am not talking about polymeter, I am talking about runs of 12 notes even spaced over 5 quarter note high hats (a 12:5 polyrhythm) then switch it up to 8 notes over 3 beats. 

7) Learn some jazz guitar 

8) Learn about 12 tone rows 

9) Do not be obsessed about cramming everything in an octave (9 note scale over 3 octaves)

Even when you go crazy, you can still find resolutions and a groove. 

I have naturally always liked bizarre harmony and phrasing. I learn more and more theory which helps, but I always go with my ears and heart foremost.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Feb 18, 2012)

Great idea for a thread, I can't contribute much but I love Lane's playing, he is the absolute pinnacle technique. When I think of people that are (or were) perfectly clean in their playing he's who always springs to mind.


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## Solodini (Feb 18, 2012)

Play around with working out what intervals you like and try stringing them together in am ascending line, descending line, and vary betweenascending and descending in a line. Similarly to what StratoJazz mentioned in another thread, most melodies reside within an octave so a lot of tension can be created by moving in and out of the octave. Play around with whether you're using diatonic notes or non-diatonic notes inside or outside the octave. You may find that you like some inside and some outside, or even that you may use diatonic notes inside the octave but use the intervals you like from the diatonic notes. There will then be intrinsic sense and consistency in how you're using the out notes. 

Rhythmically, apply a similar approach: learn what sorts of combinations of note values you like and string these rhythmic fragments together. This way, again, there'll be some logical and musical order behind what you're playing. Don't forget rests as part of this. You'll lose a lot of sense of context if you're just playing a constant string of notes, and you'll probably start to lose that rhythmic contrast which you're looking for. 

One thing I'll ask: how good are you at playing "in" within different scales, other than just major and minor, and time signatures other than 4/4, 3/4, 6/8 and 12/8? If you're not great at it then that might be something to work on first. A lot of people play chromatically, thinking it sounds mature but it sounds bad to most people. The bass line of "Want You Back" by Jackson 5 uses some chromaticism to create pull toward the diatonic notes but doesn't sound like it clashes. I'd advise you to work lots on using Lydian, locrian and Dorian harmony, as well as diminished, in a consonant way before moving on to sounding out. I recommend Robben Ford as a good starting point.


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## Wings of Obsidian (Feb 18, 2012)

Solodini said:


> One thing I'll ask: how good are you at playing "in" within different scales, other than just major and minor, and time signatures other than 4/4, 3/4, 6/8 and 12/8? If you're not great at it then that might be something to work on first. A lot of people play chromatically, thinking it sounds mature but it sounds bad to most people. The bass line of "Want You Back" by Jackson 5 uses some criticism to create pull toward the diatonic notes but doesn't sound like it clashes. I'd advise you to work lots on using Lydian, locrian and Dorian harmony, as well as diminished, in a consonant way before moving on to sounding out. I recommend Robben Ford as a good starting point.


 
To answer that question: I'm good at playing "in" differnet scales and keys. (I've done songs where I would have to select harmonic minor scales, dimisnihed scales, or even exotic scales to go over the chords changes - which were very weird sometimes.) Time signatures also haven't been a problem for me.

One thing though: what did you mean by playing chromatically? (Were you talking about linear movements, or chromatic scales? Kinda lost me there.)


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## skeels (Feb 18, 2012)

Close your eyes and open your ears.


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## Cabinet (Feb 18, 2012)

I think chromatic playing is mainly about ascending or descending one note directly to the next note on the fretboard. As in you just play half steps.
Although that's only one way to play chromatically, you can also do chromatic concepts like that video of Shawn Lane describes. He takes a diminished arpeggio and moves it up or down chromatically. You can also do something like play a perfect 4th interval descending chromatically, like E-A then Eb-Ab then D-G and Db-Gb and so on.

Chromatics make excellent tension notes and as a result they make excellent pre-resolve notes. If you're playing over a chord and the next chord is an A7, you can dance around with chromatic playing and then draw resolution to, for example, the 3rd (C#) of the A7 on the beat, or off of the beat, just do what sounds good to you 

When I do chromatic playing I like to mix it up with playing in the wrong key because then it starts to sound really cool/silly/weird and then I like to target a sweet note for the next chord and come right back into key. It's sort of like rewarding yourself and the listener for playing "wrong notes".
Guthrie Govan has a good video about this.


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## Solodini (Feb 18, 2012)

By chromatically, I meant people with similar goals of playing "out" who play non-diatonic notes, despite those notes not being the best choices in all instances. Some seem to do so to contrast boring playing, not realising that diatonic playing does not mean boring and that it's their playing which is lacking, rather than the scale. I'm not trying to be mean, I just think it's easy to fall into the trap of throwing in clashing notes because interesting players do similar things and talk about it openly whereas there's little said about being an interesting player while using standard diatonic harmony.


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## Wings of Obsidian (Feb 18, 2012)

Solodini said:


> By chromatically, I meant people with similar goals of playing "out" who play non-diatonic notes, despite those notes not being the best choices in all instances. Some seem to do so to contrast boring playing, not realising that diatonic playing does not mean boring and that it's their playing which is lacking, rather than the scale. I'm not trying to be mean, I just think it's easy to fall into the trap of throwing in clashing notes because interesting players do similar things and talk about it openly whereas there's little said about being an interesting player while using standard diatonic harmony.


 
I got'cha! Appreciate the input and elaboration, Solodini! 

Same goes to you, Cabinet! - Great ideas! Thank you! 
(Ooohh...Govan - nice example!)


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## Guitarchitect (Feb 19, 2012)

As other people have mentioned it's as much about controlling how you come back in as it is about how far out you go.

For example over a C major 7 You could play Eb pentatonic minor and every note would sit outside of the chord but that gets limiting pretty quickly.

I'm fond of 12 tone patterns. They have a way of snaking in and out of tonality and (if used symmetrically) can be fairly easy to visualize and improvise on.

Dave Creamer's the master of this sort of thing - but my own small (and admittedly low rent) buckethead-ish approach might give you some ideas as well.

Visualizing Video Game Licks Or An Intro To Symmetrical 12 Tone Guitar Patterns « Guitarchitecture.org


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## Osorio (Feb 20, 2012)

That Govan video was beyond excellent. +1 for posting it!


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## deathjazz89 (Feb 22, 2012)

Guitar Lessons, Interviews, News, Reviews, & More | Guitar Messenger  Stepping Out: A Guide To Playing Outside (Part 1)


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Feb 22, 2012)

My take on this is that "outside" has an extremely broad definition that encompasses a number of techniques. The melodic configurations that Shawn Lane poses and those that Guthrie Govan poses in the videos in this thread are about as far apart as can be: Lane's showcasing sidestepping (a form of secondary harmonic function), and Govan's talking about chromatic non-chord tones. Personally, I've done just fine without ever having to utter the word. Links that will enrich your understanding:

Non-Chord Tones
Nonchord tone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Along similar lines, ornamentation can have a huge impact on the interpretation of a melody. You're probably already familiar with some ornaments, like sliding into a note. Chromatic ornamentation can be applied to even a completely diatonic line to impart a chromatic character. Chromatic ornamentation is a stylistic feature of music like this, for example:



Then, there is the motivic process of melodic chromaticism, wherein you play whatever melodic material you're working with, without regard for underlying harmony. I'm working on a Bach prelude and fugue for school right now noway, and some of the things he does are downright weird. There's a measure that has an F# in the bass, and the melodic figure above is E# G# A B, and it continues on with other chords that don't have an F# in them.







It's kinda useless to analyze it in terms of chords (Although I'm going to do it anyway: it's a V7b9 chord over a tonic pedal.), since it's more important to look at it in terms of what's going on melodically. The right hand is working with melody independent of the harmony implied by the bass. This example is diatonic, but I can point to a million examples of melodic material stated completely separate of any single diatonic collection (therefore making it polytonal).

"Outside" sounds like such a big and ominous word to me, especially since it's just rehashing things that most people already know from intuition. All of the 'outside' situations that I can think of are common melodic and harmonic procedures with the word "chromatic" stuck in front of them.


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## gandalf (Feb 23, 2012)

A pretty easy way to create an outside sound is to use licks pertaining notes that are alien to the scale you are using. As an example if you are playing a Aminor scale over a chord progression that fits the scale, then for example use a whole note lick from the fifth position of the Major scale or a lick created from the Super Locrian mode and kick it off from the fifth mode of the major scale. It is essential that you start and end on a chord tone(from the Aminor scale) this way you will get the feeling of Going Off"" and then "returning home" Experiement with this concept. I use it myself and it sounds killer !


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## Wings of Obsidian (Feb 24, 2012)

SchecterWhore: Winner, winner, chicken dinner! Awesome advice and suggestions, bro!


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 24, 2012)

What luck I stumble upon this thread... Today is jam day! 

Post thanked... 

Guthrie made that sound so easy... Like you can more or less play whatever the hell you want even though there *are* rules. There's a guy I used to jam with on Camfrog--the meganutt... That guy pretty much told me all the same things Guthrie said in that video and I never really fully got it until recently. Seems like one of those things you just keep trying at for a while (assuming you have some sort of theory foundation) and it eventually just clicks.

The most important things he told me were that you really have to be confident and/or "believe in" the phrase you're playing. And as others have said... You HAVE to resolve it otherwise it'll sound like it might be going somewhere and then flop on its ass. Resolving is the part I tend to have the most trouble with without knowing the chord progression ahead of time (and even if I do know it ahead of time sometimes...) I'm either thinking too much or not enough.


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## T-e-r-r-y (Mar 6, 2012)

Here's a simple idea that sounds a bit out, but in a groovy Scott Henderson way as opposed to a full on Holdsworthian freakout:

You're grooving on a static Amin7 vamp and using A Dorian (A B C D E F# G). Obviously because we're totally hip and jazzy we can throw in our flattened 5th (Eb) from the blues scale which gives us A B C D Eb E F# G. 

Taking out every other note leaves A C Eb F# - a lovely stack of minor 3rds!
You can use this diminished arpeggio idea in amongst your normal Dorian licks.


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## celticelk (Mar 6, 2012)

T-e-r-r-y said:


> Here's a simple idea that sounds a bit out, but in a groovy Scott Henderson way as opposed to a full on Holdsworthian freakout:
> 
> You're grooving on a static Amin7 vamp and using A Dorian (A B C D E F# G). Obviously because we're totally hip and jazzy we can throw in our flattened 5th (Eb) from the blues scale which gives us A B C D Eb E F# G.
> 
> ...



This could also suggest D7b9, an altered IV7 chord, to propel you back to the i chord, provided you resolve it strongly (probably from the Eb up to the E).


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## The Reverend (Mar 6, 2012)

I'll definitely be paying attention to this thread.


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## T-e-r-r-y (Mar 30, 2012)

celticelk said:


> This could also suggest D7b9, an altered IV7 chord, to propel you back to the i chord, provided you resolve it strongly (probably from the Eb up to the E).



Word - the vibe of this idea is to "push" you towards the IV chord (D7).

All about dem tritone intervals dawg


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