# Baritone (28-5/8) vs 25.5 vs 24.75



## metal_head666 (Jul 23, 2009)

I really want to know the tone differences between these scale lengths in terms of tone. Is there anyone that can post up sound clips using the same pickups/wood configurations/tuning using the different scale lengths?


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## signalgrey (Jul 23, 2009)

25 and 24 i highly doubt your going to hear anything different. I could play you a 25 strat and 30 baritone. both single coil.


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## MTech (Jul 23, 2009)

search there's 1000 threads on scales/difference in sound etc.


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## Cheesebuiscut (Jul 23, 2009)

signal, if you could actually make recordings of those back to back that would be awesome!

if you could just play like a little lick on each string to show the diff, for people who say the high strings get too piercing on the 30.


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## signalgrey (Jul 23, 2009)

yeah the 30 scale is a bit piercing.

take into consideration that im not a metal guitarist and i will be playing through pretty bright and chimey single coil pups.

im gonna mention that on the baritone (which is tuned to B standard) the lower strings sound incredible. I know saying piano sustain is a bit of a cliche, so i wont say it. I will say it has the clarity of a piano.

ill do my best. ill give you a neck and bridge clean and dirty sample. just tell me how to send it to you or upload it here.


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## Apophis (Jul 24, 2009)

if you think about baritone you should consider nothing less than 28". But if we talk about a baritone scale (common sense) you can try anything longer than 25,5". Of course you can use baritone tuning  and then you can use even shorter scales.


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## ralphy1976 (Jul 24, 2009)

signalgrey said:


> yeah the 30 scale is a bit piercing.
> 
> take into consideration that im not a metal guitarist and i will be playing through pretty bright and chimey single coil pups.
> 
> ...


 
Signal, that would be great. If you can upload it on youtube and post the link here i am sure we will all find it!!


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## Variant (Jul 24, 2009)

I go for longer scales... but I tune down with light guages, so I can't speak for for a standard perceptive on the thing.


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## signalgrey (Jul 24, 2009)

I'll give it a shot when i get home tonight. I have to futz around with the electronics in the Burns, its acting a bit screwy right now. But yeah ill do my best.


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## ralphy1976 (Jul 24, 2009)

signalgrey said:


> I'll give it a shot when i get home tonight. I have to futz around with the electronics in the Burns, its acting a bit screwy right now. But yeah ill do my best.


 
sweet. awesome man. +1 for signalgrey


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## drmosh (Jul 24, 2009)

"baratone"


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## sol niger 333 (Jul 24, 2009)

28" scale will give you more clarity, better string tension, therefore faster pick attack and string response. Sustain also tends to increase if the baritone is of good quality as there is more neck wood to resonate with the increased string tension. Alder baritones seem to have more of the piano like clarity as opposed to Mahogany. If you are tuning lower than drop C I'd recommend 28" inch scale although drop B and lower has been done on 25.5 scale a lot. To my ears the baritone clarity and sustain is a huge plus for low tunings.


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## signalgrey (Jul 24, 2009)

Guesss what i have for you.

its not a piece of art so no snarky comments please.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkDqkK7FZIU


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## phaeded0ut (Jul 24, 2009)

Signalgrey,

Thanks a bunch for the comparison piece between the two scale lengths! It seemed like your strat's pickups were a bit hotter in their output than the Burns's pickups, too.


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## signalgrey (Jul 24, 2009)

Yeah they a bit hot, they sound great live through my AC30, the break it up nicely.

I hope this helps.


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## Cheesebuiscut (Jul 24, 2009)

That was great! alot more musical than I was expecting too


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## signalgrey (Jul 24, 2009)

thanks!


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## CynicEidolon (Jul 24, 2009)

Dude... Just that track is awesome! Haha. 


And thanks for the comparison. I wish more people did stuff like this.


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## signalgrey (Jul 24, 2009)

you're very welcome sir.


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## metal_head666 (Jul 27, 2009)

signalgrey: I enjoyed it. What genre/artist was that? Very relaxing music. A dirty clip would be cool too.


sol niger 333 said:


> 28" scale will give you more clarity, better string tension, therefore faster pick attack and string response. Sustain also tends to increase if the baritone is of good quality as there is more neck wood to resonate with the increased string tension. Alder baritones seem to have more of the piano like clarity as opposed to Mahogany. If you are tuning lower than drop C I'd recommend 28" inch scale although drop B and lower has been done on 25.5 scale a lot. To my ears the baritone clarity and sustain is a huge plus for low tunings.


 Plenty of people use even 24.75" scale for B-B or even A-A. It seems my suspicions were correct, the longer scales make it sound brighter. Seems a shorter scale is better for metal.


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## Cheesebuiscut (Jul 27, 2009)

A shorter scale means thicker strings for the same tension, which means with distortion etc like most metal players like to use it turns to mud.

You don't NEED any particular scale to tune to a reasonable note just the proper string for the scale.

I could put a like .090 or .100 gauge string on my standard 6 string to tune to F# but it doesn't mean I would want to... and it would be muddy as hell.

The biggest thing metal players are constantly trying to fight is muddiness, we constantly search for things that give us the clarity we crave. Unless you like all the notes bleeding together.


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## signalgrey (Jul 27, 2009)

i dont really know what genre that would be. Perhap pos-rock. that was just a little ditty i threw together for you guys. Ill work on a dirty clip tonight.

you might want to consider just sort of a medium longscale. like a 26 or 27 inch neck. It'll help with tuning stability and you wont have floppy ass strings, or logs that are tonally dead.The 28's are my personal favorite. The custom i am designing is going to be a 28 scale.

better for metal? hahaha i suppose it will be better for your metal. good 'ol personal preference.

ill post up some stuff later. thanks for the compliments.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Jul 27, 2009)

I could see some doom/sludge/drone players might like a somewhat muddy tone, but it probably wouldn't be the best choice for fast, technical, intricate, metal.


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## signalgrey (Jul 27, 2009)

yeah Pelican and Isis both tune to B and they play on Gibsons and fenders.


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## caughtinamosh (Jul 27, 2009)

metal_head666 said:


> Plenty of people use even 24.75" scale for B-B or even A-A. It seems my suspicions were correct, the longer scales make it sound brighter. Seems a shorter scale is better for metal.



What makes you say this? Meshuggah, who has, IMO, one of the best rhythm guitar tones in the business, play on 30.5" scale guitars, which is tremendously long. While it is true that most metal bands play on standard scale guitars, I would never take that to mean that those same guitars were "better" for the purpose.


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## metal_head666 (Jul 27, 2009)

Cheesebuiscut said:


> The biggest thing metal players are constantly trying to fight is muddiness, we constantly search for things that give us the clarity we crave. Unless you like all the notes bleeding together.


Which is where EMGs come in...


All_¥our_Bass;1596448 said:


> I could see some doom/sludge/drone players might like a somewhat muddy tone, but it probably wouldn't be the best choice for fast, technical, intricate, metal.


Karl Sanders tunes to drop A on a short scale and manages fine.


caughtinamosh said:


> What makes you say this? Meshuggah, who has, IMO, one of the best rhythm guitar tones in the business, play on 30.5" scale guitars, which is tremendously long. While it is true that most metal bands play on standard scale guitars, I would never take that to mean that those same guitars were "better" for the purpose.


 Leaving their music aside from this conversation, they have one of the worst tones in metal. It sounds sterile, with no depth. Even their bass players sound's sterile.


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## caughtinamosh (Jul 27, 2009)

metal_head666 said:


> Which is where EMGs come in... Karl Sanders tunes to drop A on a short scale and manages fine. Leaving their music aside from this conversation, they have one of the worst tones in metal. It sounds sterile, with no depth. Even their bass players sounds sterile.




I've never really liked Nile's tone. However, I do like Amon Amarth's, and they tune to A standard on Explorers, which have a 24.75" scale. While it is certainly possible to "get by" with regards to tuning low on standard scale guitars, increasing the scale length can, in my experience, really tighten up the low end to make it all the better, and who can't use a little more tightness?

The difference between your comment and my comment is that I made it clear that any statement that followed was from my point of view. I suggest that you do the same.


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## metal_head666 (Jul 27, 2009)

caughtinamosh said:


> I've never really liked Nile's tone. However, I do like Amon Amarth's, and they tune to A standard on Explorers, which have a 24.75" scale. While it is certainly possible to "get by" with regards to tuning low on standard scale guitars, increasing the scale length can, in my experience, really tighten up the low end to make it all the better, and who can't use a little more tightness? The difference between your comment and my comment is that I made it clear that any statement that followed was from my point of view. I suggest that you do the same.


 With the longer scale it does sound tighter, which isn't always appreciated in metal. Didn't know AA tuned to A though. As for the last bit, I don't see your point.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Jul 29, 2009)

I like Mesh's and Nile's tones.
Whether you like them or no is up to you but Mesh wouldn't be half as tight with 25.5" guitars.



Cheesebuiscut said:


> I could put a like .090 or .100 gauge string on my standard 6 string to tune to F#


This is almost my exact setup.
I use 100 for F.


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## Setnakt (Jul 29, 2009)

metal_head666 said:


> Which is where EMGs come in... Karl Sanders tunes to drop A on a short scale and manages fine.


I'll have to agree that he manages to sound like mud just fine.



> Leaving their music aside from this conversation, they have one of the worst tones in metal. It sounds sterile, with no depth. Even their bass players sound's sterile.


What does their bass player's bass tone have to do with their guitar players' guitar tone?


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## Lankles (Jul 29, 2009)

metal_head666 said:


> Which is where EMGs come in... Karl Sanders tunes to drop A on a short scale and manages fine. Leaving their music aside from this conversation, they [Meshuggah] have one of the worst tones in metal. It sounds sterile, with no depth. Even their bass players sound's sterile.




Karl Sanders is great, but his guitar tone is incredibly muddy, which is what longer scales help avoid. 

And -10000 for complaining about the sterility of Meshuggah's tone in the same post as extolling the virtues of EMG's.


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## signalgrey (Jul 30, 2009)

Lankles said:


> Karl Sanders is great, but his guitar tone is incredibly muddy, which is what longer scales help avoid.
> 
> And -10000 for complaining about the sterility of Meshuggah's tone in the same post as extolling the virtues of EMG's.



yeah i can't say emg's do anything special for lower tunings. If you like EMG's then you simply like EMG's but they are DEFINATELY no cure-all for low tuning problems.

And im not the biggest Meshuggah fan in the world, but i dont think they are sterile at all. AND if they were sterile in tone that has nothing to do with scale length.


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## Cheesebuiscut (Jul 30, 2009)

metal_head666 said:


> they have one of the worst tones in metal. It sounds sterile, with no depth. Even their bass players sound's sterile.



Emg's are the king of sterile... so that was the greatest contradictory statement I've seen in some time 

I don't even remotely like meshuggah but oh your god the bass tone in that video was sex! It sounds soo much like a guitar tone though


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## All_¥our_Bass (Aug 10, 2009)

The sound in that vid is great.

I might also add that some people really dig sterile/wierd/unguitarlike tones.
I am in this camp, but I also like warm tones too.


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## caughtinamosh (Aug 10, 2009)

All_¥our_Bass;1613419 said:


> The sound in that vid is great.
> 
> I might also add that some people really dig sterile/wierd/unguitarlike tones.
> I am in this camp, but I also like warm tones too.


 
Yes. For example, I love the clean tone used during the intro to "Dancers to a Discordant System," by Meshuggah. It reminds me of huge, cavernous halls - totally clean, with gleaming white walls. The tone is completely alien, but is very fitting to the music.


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## Scali (Aug 10, 2009)

metal_head666 said:


> It seems my suspicions were correct, the longer scales make it sound brighter. Seems a shorter scale is better for metal.


 
Yea, I think that's pretty much right... the short scale of Gibson guitars play a part in their dark and 'metal' voicing I suppose. The longer the scale, the brighter.
Baritones and bass guitars have longer scales because in the lower frequencies a short scale can get too dark, not to mention the extreme guages required to keep tension right, and the problem of getting them properly intonated.

That's why fanned frets make sense when you want to cover a large range of frequencies with a single instrument... Technically a piano or a harp is also built this way... The string length increases from the high to low frequencies.


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## signalgrey (Aug 10, 2009)

it does make sense. one of these days id like to try them out. i think the mind fuck at first would be weird. I wonder why they arent more popular. meh. i like my 30 inch neck tones, it really snaps out some cool shit.

although i am going to be modding the pups to something a bit darker to regulate that.


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