# Natural ability vs acquired ability



## AliceAxe (May 13, 2010)

I've been teaching for a while and I've definitely noticed that some people just take to the guitar like a duck to water and others just struggle and struggle.

I'm a struggler I'm afraid , but mabee what makes me a good teacher because I can relate to my students struggles.

Lately the things I've been trying to play have been stumping me because they seem to involve some realy impossible reaches that it seems there is no way I can do. and I've noticed that the artist who wrote the stuff I like and am trying to play are always these tall lanky guys with realy long fingers  and many of the best players in the world are Ive noticed too. 

I feel handicapped having small hands and I already have arthritis which makes it even harder. Im realy frustrated coming up against these sorts of obstacles that there seems to be no way to over come. Its not as if there is a formula for growing longer fingers 

has anyone else noticed this? 

How much do you think natural talent and ability accounts for ones success with the instrument and how much is practice and study? 

can any one suggest realy great players with handicaps or small hands etc? I need some inspiration.


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## aphelion (May 13, 2010)

Django Reinhart...probably not the kind of music you're referring to (I am being presumptious) but an inspiring story as well. And a lot of artists seem to imply that your limitations are where your creativity and identity as an individual player can really come to the fore...it may hinder your technical ability, but it can't hinder your imagination, creativity and desire to explore who YOU are in relation to the instrument...


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## jymellis (May 13, 2010)

just saw your video on youtube of you playing the ibanez S series giger. i just got the RG series engraved giger and was searching for videos. nice playing!!


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## McCap (May 13, 2010)

Have a look at shawn lane and michael romeo (symphony x). Both have small, hands and are/were not really thin. But technically they are both incredible.

I think you can reach extremely high levels with just work!
Maybe the talented guys can get there quicker, but I think if both work extremely hard the differences will be in spheres that are not really necessary to reach...or maybe even unidentifiable to most...
just my two cents


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## jymellis (May 13, 2010)

im pretty sure frank gambales hands are kinda small. he doesnt do crazy reaches but hes sooo fucking good!


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## thraxil (May 13, 2010)

Nonsense. Every time this sort of thing is studied in music or any other field, the results always come out pretty much the same: talent might have a small role distinguishing the very upper echelon, but for the most part, success comes with consistent, rigorous, mindful practice. This article summarizes it pretty well. Having a natural innate gift for something might make the difference between being in the 98th or 99th percentile, but how much you practice determines whether you are in the 30th or 90th percentile. 

The students you see struggling just don't practice as much or don't know how to do "deliberate practice" correctly. Maybe there's such thing as a talent for practicing and focusing though... 

Also, I'm a tall, lanky guy with long fingers and stretches were really hard for me until I spent a lot of time working really hard on improving that part of my playing (now that I'm spending a lot of time on a 28.6" 8-string neck, I feel like I'm back to square one there and I'm going to have to spend more time on that again).


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## AliceAxe (May 13, 2010)

wow thanks for all the great responses. great incites and suggestions!

gee thanks for the nice compliment and for watching jymellis *hugs*

I agree , thraxil, that practice and motivation may well be the main factor.
But Ive had students with some serious physical challenges, one gal, her fingers twisted in a weird way that made playing pretty difficult and she practiced a lot and did 'ok' dispite it, other students, often adult men , there fingers are very thick and many have a real hard time with fitting fingers between the strings, also others with outright disabilitys, like one guy had paralysis in his hands one arm completely paralysed. There are people who face some very serious challenges, its not not knowing how to practice, I teach them that. It almost comes down to a sort of musical 'physical therapy' and have applied some of those principals as well, though I don't claim to be any kind of a therapist. I did have one other gal whos therapist recomended taking guitar lessons, she was good for giving me info.
but your right some have a talent for concentration others do not. ADD perhaps as an example?

I do stretching all the time and have a pretty good reach with my left hand certainly a considerable more than my right when I compare the 2 hands. My left hand pinky can stretch a good inch beyound the other. I guess mabee I expect too much from myself?

with that you make a good point Aphelion. Focusing on ways to work around limitations can be the birth of a new fresh approach. I'm going to explore that concept of individuality definately. As it applies to teaching as well.

I didnt know Micheal Romeo had small hands, he seems like a big guy. He does have an amazing technique.


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## troyguitar (May 13, 2010)

You can always use more strings or a wider tuning if you want to help eliminate stretches too.


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## Psychobuddy (May 13, 2010)

I'm a tall lanky guy like you described and my fingers are fairly long. I don't think that I have "natural talent" for guitar, it is something that I have had to work on everyday for however many years that I have been playing. My stretching ability came with time and patience, along with many hours of diligent practice. Everyone who posted above me has in some way, shape, or form said everything that I would have wanted or needed to say. Also as troy said just switch to a different string if you can't make the stretch, or teach your students that way of thinking, but if you like the timbre of the notes when the are clustered on on string tap them...no one's going to be able to stretch their hand wide enough to play an 3 note per string augmented arpeggio when they start at the fifth fret.


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## AliceAxe (May 13, 2010)

ah I do know about years and years and hours and hours of practice no doubt.

well my topic was realy ment to just be in general about physical vs effort but as we are talking about stretch and my personal efforts, I'd like to run this by y'all, the bits Ive been having trouble with are from this page. Licks 'D' and 'K' . 

Guitar Shred Show

'D' is ok until I get down to the pull off from the 10th to 5 fret, thats painful for me. Tapping is a great idea though I don't know that it would work with a lick like this - a pull off with a sort of triplet pattern to it.
and the arppegio in 'K' from the 17th to 12th fret is too much for me to manage I can just do it if I 'spider' my finger across.

Im realy curious now I'd like to have a study done of guitar players 'attributes' vs their playing lol

---------------------------------------------------------------

So this all brings up another question, if I may, mabee its been covered before in other threads....

if its a case of practice and study being the main factor, I am now wondering how long ,on average, do some of the best players practice to get to their level? 

How about some of you, do you have very elaborate and lengthy practice routines? Do you feel it is helping you to make a lot of progress and getting close to a level of ability and proficiancy that you want?


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## S-O (May 13, 2010)

I think after a while time is not how one ends up measuring practicing, instead by goals and certain aspects or ideas. I remember working on everything till I had all the stuff down to a pretty good level, then tightened down certain parts of my playing, then focused on certain ideas/concepts.

Also, natural vs acquired is hard. Shawn lane said he pretty much was shredding from day one, while Steve Vai said he worked crazy hard on guitar and music. Other guys like Rusty Cooley and Michael Romeo had been playing for a bit before they decided to hit the woodshed, I believe Romeo said in the YG vid that he started really practicing when he was 19, and I think I remember Rusty saying in an interview or something that he one day deciding to hit the woodshed and super charge his chops.

I also remember looking at Steve Vai and Paul Gilbert and being depressed that I did not have the same long skinny fingers as they do, I have long enough fingers, but I got a lot more meat than Vai or Gilbert.

Example:



So, meh. I think people ought to just keep on keepin' on.


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## Waelstrum (May 14, 2010)

I remember trying to learn Paul Gilbert's string skipping technique, and I tried from ages, but my stumpy little fingers couldn't do it. Then I looked at his long alien fingers and thought 'screw that'. I've since been playing on a 35" scale bass, and I can do some pretty long stretches (4nps at 5th fret of bass (sloppily)), but I still can't pick the string skipping, but tapping it is getting there. I also saw in an interview that Paul started off just playing power chord rhythm guitar, and didn't shred for years. And John Myung of Dream Theater allegedly practices for 6 hours a day, and warms down for 2 hours after shows. So I don't think one can really tell the if your born with it or not once you get to that level.



(Not that I want to be the one to mention anime but this is like the Neji vs Lee thing from Naruto.)


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## Aurochs34 (May 14, 2010)

It's all about work, bro. I'm with 'em. When it comes to mechanical technique, I truly believe that. You'll get what you put in, as far as I'm concerned, and that's different for everybody.
Think about Rhoads; he was a really small dude.

and then there are these fuckers...

Iommi:











Django Reinhardt:


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## BlackMetalVenom (May 14, 2010)

Oh my lanta, I love Django Reinhardt!
And there is nothing wrong with switching to a smaller scale if you need to man.
(This should have some credit coming from someone who can stretch from the 4th to the 12th fret on a 28.625" inch scale.)
Just take a look at guys like the kid from All Shall Perish, and Reece Fullwood.
They have only been playing for about five or more years, but they can literally play about as fast as Rusty Cooley.
It's all about smart, efficient, focused practice.
Also dude, never worry about speed or technique, worry about your phrasing and the feel and mood you are trying to achieve. 


There is some guitarist (whose name escapes me) but he had only two fingers to work with and he could shred his tits off! I saw a video of his on youtube.
OH, there is also another player who entered in the guitar idol competition that didn't have a picking hand, so he used a sort of hook to pick.
Anyways, his phrasing was wonderful. I'll try to find them and post them back up on here.


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## Despised_0515 (May 14, 2010)

Michael Keene comes to mind.

Dude doesn't even use his pinky most of the time and he still rips.
I agree with "you get what you put in". I've owned a guitar for 5 years
and I've only been playing legitimately for 3 years but there was never
really much REAL practice time up until a month and a half ago and I've
got to say that I'm astonished at how much I've improved by just giving
my guitar the real time of day and practicing 1 to 3 hours a day.

Don't let your frustrations hold you back, and always tell yourself that you can play whatever it is you want to play.
If not now then in time.



EDIT: I can relate on being a struggler as well but I think that's more of a result of not practicing efficiently in the past for me.


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## SnowfaLL (May 14, 2010)

I definitely thing this is a real thing. Some people just have a natural ability for certain things that others would die for. 

The first thing that comes to mind, is my old roommate, he was a pretty poor sax player but when he played around on my bass, his fingerpicking (3 finger style) was SOOO fucking fast, with no practice at all.. and mad control. Its not exactly like you get that kind of workout on a sax either (he wasnt even good), so the only thing I think it must be is he has some natural talent in his right hand for his fingers.. My fingers are so fuckin slow for speed finger-picking, and I work at it everyday, but I doubt i'd ever be able to play like speed/tech metal with my fingers on bass =[

Also, my ear is pretty insane for figuring out melodies, to the point where I never have to sightread if anyone else has the same part as me, I just listen to it once from them and its there. I never really worked at it, it was just a natural ability I had when i started playing guitar, to figure out melodies its just always been easy for me while others struggle. Ive had lessons with teachers of 20+ year experience where I could play back parts faster than them in the heat of the moment after listening. But its only mid-high melody, basslines are hard to hear and chords just kill me =[

Anyways, good practice will solve almost all of your issues, esp if you dont plan on doing any extreme types of music like Shawn Lane soloing or so, but there are some people who are just gifted in certain areas and they dont have to work at it like the rest of us do =[


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## The Atomic Ass (May 17, 2010)

AliceAxe said:


> like one guy had paralysis in his hands one arm completely paralysed.


I forget who this was, but I saw a video a while ago of an astounding bassist who was either paralyzed, or was missing an arm entirely. He played by hammering on, and it was better than anything I've been able to achieve by leagues. Hell, he put most 2-handed bassists to shame.


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## S-O (May 18, 2010)

The Atomic Ass said:


> I forget who this was, but I saw a video a while ago of an astounding bassist who was either paralyzed, or was missing an arm entirely. He played by hammering on, and it was better than anything I've been able to achieve by leagues. Hell, he put most 2-handed bassists to shame.



The guy with the claw hand?


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## Rick (May 18, 2010)

For the record, I have neither.


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## AliceAxe (May 18, 2010)

The Atomic Ass said:


> I forget who this was, but I saw a video a while ago of an astounding bassist who was either paralyzed, or was missing an arm entirely. He played by hammering on, and it was better than anything I've been able to achieve by leagues. Hell, he put most 2-handed bassists to shame.


 

it is amazing what people can do when they put their mind to it 
My friend Mark plays with his feet ....






I feel lucky that I can do what I can considering my condition, but I'm not content to just accept the limitations i've still got from my illness, and why I'm still fighting to get better and looking for answers. I guess I'm an obstinate old bitch


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## Colton165 (May 18, 2010)

AliceAxe said:


> it is amazing what people can do when they put their mind to it
> My friend Mark plays with his feet ....
> 
> 
> ...



speaking of that sort of thing...


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## Winspear (Jul 14, 2011)

I didn't think this warranted a new thread, so I'll put it here.

Do you think that there are some techniques that someone may simply never take to very well no matter how hard they try?

Been playing for 6 years and I just can't seem to get tight lead playing with alternate picking down. I've been practicing solos with a metronome and I'm still struggling after a year, whereas I picked up hybrid picking clean guitar and smoother, looser economy picking a lot faster than I expected to.


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## TRENCHLORD (Jul 14, 2011)

Marvelous Marty Friedman comes to mind. He's no giant, he just plays like one. Even though it's good to work on your weakness', its also smart to play to your strengths and allow them to have heavy influence over your own style. I'm sure we all do that to an extent regaurdless of intention. If for instance, one has problems with wide stretches but wants to include some wides in their leads, then they can just incorporate them higher up on the fretboard.


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## SirMyghin (Jul 14, 2011)

While your genetics may make some techniques easier for you (which likely lends a lot to your 'style'), I do not think their is any level of 'talent' that will get you to the upper eschelon. We all need a lot of practice to get there, some people might be better at practicing however. I think being better at practice is a big factor here, not 'talent'. Guitar isn't exactly natural motion by any means, so I do not think you are going to have it built in for survival... 

I take talent as a down play, people more often using it as an excuse for to place people or things out of reach. They stop trying as 'they don't have the talent'. They really just don't want to put in the work, regardless of how much it may be. Sure being deft might help a bit, but you can build coordination. Look at Neil Peart, a fellow who by all accounts is uncoordinated (seriously, to the extent he has never botherred with sports etc, came up in contents under pressure), and look at the way he drums.

To take lyrics from a great tune, Runaway Train, "You've got to want it". That's it in my mind. I am a struggler on guitar, constantly getting closer to being able to shred (albeit I don't particularly find it useful I want the coordination). I am not a struggler on bass, but guys like Myung are capable of stuff I am nowhere near even though, being by all accounts, quite good. I poured my teens into learning bass though, not guitar.


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## Overtone (Jul 15, 2011)

Theres also so many facets to musicianship. Theres the chops side of it (woodshedding to improve technique), theres the mentals side of it (think about human supercomputers like Zappa, Beethoven), and even a more spiritual side which i think is about reaching a state of inspiration where the music comes from within. Sometimes a musician is more naturally endowed in one area or another but unless you're a pop diva who has fat producers its likely you will have to put in the time somewhere or somehow, whether thats traditional practice, casually playing for so many years that you develop a feel, or even being such a dedicated music listener that by the time you take up an instrument your brain is already so capable of thinking musically that it just seems to make sense naturally.


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## Tomo009 (Jul 15, 2011)

Well I definitely think some techniques come easier to some than others but with the work it'll pay off. 

Myself, I've been playing for about 3 and a half years, about 3 of those practicing pull offs and I still can't do them to any degree of competency, I can do trills and hammer-on then pull-off but pull-off runs, , especially 3 or 4 notes on one string and changing strings, just doesn't work for me yet. I've been practicing sweep pick for a bout 1 and a half years and while I'm obviously still terrible at it, I feel more comfortable with it than my pull-off technique.


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## StratoJazz (Jul 15, 2011)

I do think certain things come easier to certain people. I know that i'm much better at smaller movements. So economic picking works best for me as opposed to alternate picking.

I also think the majority of a person's skill is heavily related their social standing in a particular music scene.

I go to a music school that which if you've ever been to one, there are all of these hierarchical-like structures where the best students are "ridiculously talented" and the kids that are on the lower end of the spectrum are assumed to suck, have no talent, and won't make it in a music carreer. There's also this insane amount of insecurity going on, but i won't go into that.

However, the "super-talented" make friends with the "untalented" and the "untalented" begin to progress rapidly. They get alot better really fast and eventually are continued to be "super-talented." You can't tell quite as much of a difference between either persons playing ability anymore.

Their is a drummer i go to school with that started at the university last semester, and improved drastically in one year simply because he made friends with the "super-talented" kids. Their is another drummer that i go to school with that actually has alot of technique, but struggles with form. Since he struggles with form, he's ridiculed more than the other, and therefore is an "untalented" sucker.

So if you take anything from this, nurture as well as social factors have *ALOT* to do how someone plays and is perceived.


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## horacexgrant (Jul 21, 2011)

Personally, I hardly practiced as a child, when my parents forced me to learn violin, piano, and then i wanted to learn guitar. I never practiced, and I magically was super talented at it. I think this is just a case of a child being a sponge, and anything you teach it will be absorbed like crazy. Now that i'm 23 years old and a hardcore guitarist, I don't have the same natural absorption as before, but I do feel that I am naturally talented, because my friend who tries to do the same stuff as me, can't do it, even though he supposedly practices a lot.


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## Bribanez (Jul 23, 2011)

I know what the OP means and I've wondered this myself. But at the same time Vai didn't write FTLOG his 1st day playing.


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