# Experiences with Subzero guitars?



## LostTheTone (Jan 15, 2021)

I'm looking to buy my first seven string. The plan is to get something cheap so I can get used to playing a seven and figure out what I really want and need from a pricier one, while leaving enough cash in my budget to upgrade pickups if needed.

I'm very tempted by either this one or possibly this one if I get saucy and go after a fanned fret guitar. Both are from little known brand SubZero, which I understand is the house brand of Gear4Music here in the UK.

Obviously, they are pretty damn cheap, so that's helpful, but there's other reasons why I'm interested beyond price. 

The straight-fret SubZero one has a 27" scale neck, which is a huge plus to me compared to the cheapest Ibanez and Jackson sevens which are 25.5". My present down tuned guitar is a 25.5" and I've never liked the string tension of the low C even with really chonky strings. It is also routed for soapbar pickups, so I get the benefits of direct mounting and if/when I upgrade the pickups I have the option of EMG707s, which are surprisingly cheap here but only available in soapbars. 

I'm not expecting a spectacular guitar for £180, I know there's compromises. I know stock pickups are generally disappointing for both low tunings and high gain. I know I might want/need to upgrade there, and I'm leaving space in my budget for that. 

My question is - Are these guitars too good to be true? Has anyone had a bad experience with them?

If I were to buy this random house brand, am I going to be really disappointed compared to a cheap Jackson or ESP? Just based on specs, the SubZero should have more stuff I want, but is it also going to be hot garbage?

Oh and... Should I get the fanned one? I mean, it's prettier, and people say that fanned is just directly better. I don't know if I 100% need it, but is it wiser to learn on a fanned fret seven? Just... I can afford it and I could be convinced...


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## Zado (Jan 15, 2021)

Sorry I had to.


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## Mathemagician (Jan 15, 2021)

If you’ve tried the house brand instruments and founds them acceptable for the price, I’d be willing to be the OEM line would also meet your needs.


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## MetalDaze (Jan 15, 2021)

Best advice for situations like this is to confirm the return policy. 

As a lefty, I have to buy most guitars sight unseen. You might have to pay return shipping, but that’s better than being stuck with something you don’t enjoy.


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## couverdure (Jan 16, 2021)

Someone made a review on one of their Bass VI-type models. They seem to have the same type of quality Harley Benton has, which is also another store-based house brand.


One of the guitarists from Loathe also used it in their newest guitar playthrough.


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## LostTheTone (Jan 16, 2021)

MetalDaze said:


> Best advice for situations like this is to confirm the return policy.
> 
> As a lefty, I have to buy most guitars sight unseen. You might have to pay return shipping, but that’s better than being stuck with something you don’t enjoy.



Gear4Music's return policy is pretty solid. There's 30 days to return anything, as long as it comes back in good shape. I would likely have to pay return shipping, although they will refund it if items are dead on arrival.

Gear4Music are a reputable vendor, and I don't think they'd jack me up.


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## lewis (Jan 16, 2021)

my Redsub fan fret bass (same company) is killer. On par with Harley Benton in build and returns policy.
I say DO IT and see whats what.


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## cip 123 (Jan 16, 2021)

I’m actually pretty intrigued by this too.

I’ve emailed about the availability of the fanned 8.

for the money you’re getting a boatload of specs, including stainless frets and luminous side dots. And it doesn’t even look badly designed, the fan looks to have a good positioning of the perpendicular fret so it doesn’t look too extreme down the low end.


I have some fishmans laying around, if the 8 is available I may well take the dive


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## LostTheTone (Jan 16, 2021)

cip 123 said:


> I’m actually pretty intrigued by this too.
> 
> I’ve emailed about the availability of the fanned 8.
> 
> ...



That's really the right word, isn't it? Intriguing. They aren't so cheap that they make you skeptical, and they seem to be designed to be 7 and 8 strings, not just an afterthought. 

I think I am going to pull the trigger once I get to payday. Just see what happens!


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## Phlegethon (Jan 16, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> My question is - Are these guitars too good to be true? Has anyone had a bad experience with them?



There is a good chance they're made in the same factory as Jackson/LTD guitars. So at least the people doing it are presumably familiar with guitar building 



LostTheTone said:


> If I were to buy this random house brand, am I going to be really disappointed compared to a cheap Jackson or ESP? Just based on specs, the SubZero should have more stuff I want, but is it also going to be hot garbage?



The guitar is likely going to have similar quality to a Jackson/LTD of similar price. Resale value is laughable because it's a store brand, and that's usually how it goes. The only exception I'm aware of regarding store brands and inability to get money from selling them used is Traynor. That being said, if the guitar arrives at your house and doesn't have something wrong with it that would prompt a return? There's worse things to spend 300 pounds on. 



LostTheTone said:


> Oh and... Should I get the fanned one? I mean, it's prettier, and people say that fanned is just directly better. I don't know if I 100% need it, but is it wiser to learn on a fanned fret seven? Just... I can afford it and I could be convinced...



I would personally buy a 25.5" scale length for my first 7 string. I haven't had problems in getting things to sound appropriate on the low B, but then again the lowest I'll ever go is whole step down on the low B. But from what I remember playing on a fanned fret Ibanez RG7 in a music store once? The fan was noticeable, and wouldn't buy a fanned fret as my first kick at the 7 string can.


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## LostTheTone (Jan 16, 2021)

Phlegethon said:


> I would personally buy a 25.5" scale length for my first 7 string. I haven't had problems in getting things to sound appropriate on the low B, but then again the lowest I'll ever go is whole step down on the low B. But from what I remember playing on a fanned fret Ibanez RG7 in a music store once? The fan was noticeable, and wouldn't buy a fanned fret as my first kick at the 7 string can.



There is a reasonable chance that I'm just being too picky about my downtuned six, but man I really do want a 27" guitar. 

I can see what you're saying about the fanned fret model. On the one hand, I am still tempted, because the only way to make the transition is to just start playing a fanned axe. On the other hand, changing too much stuff makes for a stiffer learning curve.


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## cip 123 (Jan 16, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> That's really the right word, isn't it? Intriguing. They aren't so cheap that they make you skeptical, and they seem to be designed to be 7 and 8 strings, not just an afterthought.
> 
> I think I am going to pull the trigger once I get to payday. Just see what happens!


It seems to be designed after a VIK style guitar which again lends me to the thought they actually had a player design these. It’s got a VIK headstock and similar style body. So seems like someone who’s in to ERG has been in on the design which is good.


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## p88 (Jan 16, 2021)

I have the 27" black 7 string, and it's a great instrument for the money. The specification is so good for what you pay.

The neck is medium-thin and rounded, but not thick. Nice and playable. It has an alder body (not some mystery wood), a maple neck and a graphite nut. The bridge has a nice tone to it, and the pickups are passable.

All of this makes it a great candidate for a project, but it's also good as it is if you're strapped for cash.

I upgraded the pickups to Fishman Fluence Modern's and hooked up a kill switch. This thing sounds ridiculously heavy, tight and clear. It's now easily the best sounding 7 string _i've_ played.

Tuning stability was fine too, from memory. But I still upgraded to non-locking Gotoh tuners for peace of mind (these were direct drop ins, no modification needed).

There are a few minor finish imperfections if you look for them, but nothing glaringly bad...but for the price can you really complain?

I will say that the frets were a little sharp, but a $/€/£5 file from eBay and a few minutes will fix that.

Also, another thing to note is that if you play in the classical position, this style of arm cut (Blackmachine style, rather than Strat style) can cause wrist discomfort on your picking arm, as there's essentially a corner digging in to it. I also found this to be the case with other guitars with the same style arm cut, so this 'issue' isn't specific to SubZero guitars.

I'm currently tuned to Drop-A with 9-42+56 D'Addario strings (I prefer the sound of thinner strings), so this scale length really helps with tension and keeping things playable.

I highly recommend this guitar - for the price you absolutely cannot go wrong. It's a lot of guitar for £189.

I personally would get the 27" standard scale model, and put the £110 you save towards upgrades (if that's what you're looking to do).

Pictures attached!


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## LostTheTone (Jan 17, 2021)

p88 said:


> I personally would get the 27" standard scale model, and put the £110 you save towards upgrades (if that's what you're looking to do).



Yeah I think that's what I'm going to do. 

I really don't like black super strats, and I had sort of promised myself not to get another one. However, when I'm looking just at getting something to learn with, I'm a lot more worried pickups than either fanned fret or pettiness.

Cheers for the write up dude, it does give me more confidence that I'll get something playable.


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## p88 (Jan 17, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> However, when I'm looking just at getting something to learn with, I'm a lot more worried pickups than either fanned fret or pettiness.



You absolutely have the right mindset, in my opinion.

My first 7 string was a custom, and it was immaculately made and played ridiculously well - however, I messed up on some of the fundamental options, and that ruined my experience with the guitar and ultimately resulted in me selling it for quite a big loss.

Had I experimented with cheaper gear to find out what I really liked, I could have spec'd my ideal custom down the line - something that I would keep and not lose money on.


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## LostTheTone (Jan 17, 2021)

p88 said:


> You absolutely have the right mindset, in my opinion.
> 
> My first 7 string was a custom, and it was immaculately made and played ridiculously well - however, I messed up on some of the fundamental options, and that ruined my experience with the guitar and ultimately resulted in me selling it for quite a big loss.
> 
> Had I experimented with cheaper gear to find out what I really liked, I could have spec'd my ideal custom down the line - something that I would keep and not lose money on.



That's what I'm trying to remember as I look at fancier guitars - It does feel slightly odd to be right down at the bottom end of the range again, but it's got to be the right choice.

Honestly, I don't even know how much I'm going to play a seven. It's a hobby thing for a guy who is mostly a singer not a guitarist. So keeping the entry cost down has to be a good idea. 

And, like you did, maybe I'll throw Fishmann's in later in the year and get something really fun. But if it mostly lives on the rack and only comes out when I really fancy it, well at least that's not too much wasted.


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## pondman (Jan 17, 2021)

If the neck plays ok I can't see a problem. Changing the pickups and whatever is easy so how can you loose.


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## lewis (Jan 17, 2021)

I just bought the Redsub Fan Fret 6 Coliseum from these guys to go with my Redsub INF fan fret 4 I already have.
Delivery is tomorrow. Its an absolute beast with basically Dingwall scale length (as good as in this price range anyway)
Cannot wait.

its a beauty


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## lewis (Jan 17, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> I'm looking to buy my first seven string. The plan is to get something cheap so I can get used to playing a seven and figure out what I really want and need from a pricier one, while leaving enough cash in my budget to upgrade pickups if needed.
> 
> I'm very tempted by either this one or possibly this one if I get saucy and go after a fanned fret guitar. Both are from little known brand SubZero, which I understand is the house brand of Gear4Music here in the UK.
> 
> ...




assuming you guys have seen this already but if not -


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## Hollowway (Jan 17, 2021)

lewis said:


> I just bought the Redsub Fan Fret 6 Coliseum from these guys to go with my Redsub INF fan fret 4 I already have.
> Delivery is tomorrow. Its an absolute beast with basically Dingwall scale length (as good as in this price range anyway)
> Cannot wait.
> 
> ...



Do you already have it? The couch pic is throwing me off. 

Either way, let me know what you think. I'm wanting a 6 string bass to tune to F#, and this sounds like the cheapest way to get there. But, I want to make sure it plays really well because I'll have to switch out all of the electronics and pups if I want the classic dingwall tone.


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## lewis (Jan 17, 2021)

Hollowway said:


> Do you already have it? The couch pic is throwing me off.
> 
> Either way, let me know what you think. I'm wanting a 6 string bass to tune to F#, and this sounds like the cheapest way to get there. But, I want to make sure it plays really well because I'll have to switch out all of the electronics and pups if I want the classic dingwall tone.


Will do!
it arrives tomorrow.

That couch pic is just someone elses I found online


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## LostTheTone (Jan 18, 2021)

lewis said:


> assuming you guys have seen this already but if not -




That's a nice demo and does help with my confidence. 

It's slightly frustrating to listen to him because his tone is close to being what my ear would love, but not quite... But then if it's a guitar at that point, where I kinda just want to twiddle the knobs then I'm not worried about the quality of the wood or the neck at all. Sure, he has Fishmanns in there, but I can do that too...

Also, I respect any man who unashamedly wears PJs while working.


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## lewis (Jan 18, 2021)

@Hollowway its arrived.
Because of the cold and storage conditions it has an incredible amount of moisture all over it. Ive sat it aside to try and get to room temp before I dick with it.

Straight off the bat ive spotted the frets need a polish. This moisture has presumably added some corrosion to them.
The masked off black binding area is abit ropey. I have some odd finish flaws around the headstock And the very end of the fretboard where it meets the body is a touch sketchy.

fretboard seems ok as do fret ends. Will update further tonight when its acclimated and ive played it and inspected it more. The weight isnt bad and the neck seems like it will be easier enough to play.

these small finish imperfections im assuming will be on all of them so probably pointless keep returning in the hopes i get a flawless one.


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## cip 123 (Jan 18, 2021)

I was told the 8 fan will be in stock at the end of this year, November/December.

for what it’s worth I might just throw in an order see what happens.


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## p88 (Jan 22, 2021)

lewis said:


> assuming you guys have seen this already but if not -




This fanned fret 7 string looks amazing, and it looks even better with white pickups.

I was tempted to buy this guitar, however I noticed that a) the bridge pickup appears to be angled a little further away from the bridge on the bass side, than the treble and b) the whole pickup appears to be further away from the saddles than on the standard 27" scale black guitar.

I don't know if this is normal for fan fret guitars, but this is a problem for me.

I'm sure everyone know that the further a pickup is from the bridge, the looser and rounder the tone is - hence why neck pickups sound the way they do.

I love tight, clear rhythm tones - so I'm concerned (maybe needlessly so) that the angling and the distance of the pickup from the bridge may effect tone in a way that I don't want.

See my crude Microsoft Paint illustration to see what I mean.


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## LostTheTone (Jan 25, 2021)

My SubZero arrived this morning  







I have only had maybe half an hour to play around with it but I am feeling pretty satisfied with my purchase thus far. I will do a proper write up to round this thread off in a couple of days (and some clips once I have properly learned some 7 string riffs) but to give some immediate thoughts :-

The neck is good. It is a new sensation for me to be playing on a 27" scale, and on a 7 string neck, but the neck itself feels good. There's no fret buzz or other issues as far as I can feel. It's just pretty good. There are one or two tells that this is a cheaper guitar, like little specks of grain filler in the fingerboard, and the edging isn't perfectly finished. They aren't noticeable at all when I play, but I don't want to make out this is some miracle of craftsmanship. 

The pickups are also fairly good. By the standards of unbranded stock pickups they are actually some of the better ones I've played. Playing within the standard range bits of the fretboard the pickups sound alright. Not as good as my Invader or Distortion equipped guitars, but good enough. Down on the 7th string, the pickups actually keep up quite well. Playing on my existing distortion set up they were a little bit muddy, but with two minutes of tweaks (more treble, more presence, less bass) they sound solid. I like the neck pickup more myself, but they are both alright. 

As for the rest; everything works. Much like my ex, the body is fatter than you'd like but it is nicely contoured and it's very playable. The set-up is also fine out of the box. Action is a little high for me, but very playable. It came strung with a 10-59 set, which feels alright but I would prefer the next set up for A-standard. 

In conclusion - Yeah, its pretty good.


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## p88 (Jan 26, 2021)

awesome! glad to see you pulled the trigger and didn't regret it.

i quite liked the stock pickups too - i almost questioned why i was upgrading them...but then all those doubts disappeared once i installed the fishman fluence's.

how were the frets? mine felt fine out of the box, but once the guitar acclimatised, a few suddenly felt sharp.


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## LostTheTone (Jan 27, 2021)

p88 said:


> awesome! glad to see you pulled the trigger and didn't regret it.
> 
> i quite liked the stock pickups too - i almost questioned why i was upgrading them...but then all those doubts disappeared once i installed the fishman fluence's.
> 
> how were the frets? mine felt fine out of the box, but once the guitar acclimatised, a few suddenly felt sharp.



After a bit more time playing it (and fiddling with amp settings) I can say that I agree with your assessment. There are times when I feel like the pickups are fine as they are, but then when I plug in to a different set-up I am reminded that they are limited.

That's most obvious playing through my HoTone Nano Heart Attack. It's supposed to sound like a M/B Dual Rectifier, and it mostly does a good job, but it's not as tight as the real deal, and it only has a very basic EQ. Through that, the SubZero pickups' little bit of flubbiness is much more obvious and is hard to get rid of without extra tools.

Through an amp sim, or through my Valeton GP-100, you can just dial it in and pull out some of the super-low end which cleans it up quite well. You can make some good noises, and it's absolutely good enough that I'm happy playing it for the moment. Judicial use of the tone knob goes a long way to get it sounding good.

However, getting beyond "pretty good" is hard, and I think it's really a job for a high pass filter, a proper parametric EQ and possibly dynamic compression. I think it can be done, but I don't want to be the guy who has to do it.

For a very cheap guitar, I don't think you can ask for much more than it gives. However, I do think this guitar is just begging for some tastier pickups. Throwing Fishmanns or EMGs in there should make it a seven that I can play for years.

As for the frets - I haven't felt any problems at all. I can't say I've done an exhaustive search, but I had a bit of a feel around and everything feels fine.


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## LostTheTone (Jan 31, 2021)

I've had this guitar for a week now, and I've arrived at a sound I'm really quite happy with it. 

I figure I'll just throw up some clips and let you all have a listen. 

DISCLAIMER – I am a *mediocre *guitarist and audio engineer. I'm primarily a singer, my playing isn’t spectacular, and the recordings aren’t wonderful either. They have a bit of weird reverb/feedback in them, but that's not the pickups, it's my terrible audio interface. I’m only posting snippets too, because frankly I can’t play the whole way through any songs on a 7 yet.

With that said – Here is the sound that I’ve settled on:

The Industrialist

Recharger

Loco

And it sounds... Actually yeah, I'm pretty happy with this. It's not super special, but it's a good solid modern metal tone. For a £180 guitar into about £300 of various pedals and a 5w micro amp it's a lot better than I had expected.

7/10, would djent again. 

That said, the pickups are not very cooperative. I am not an expert by any means, but to me the real problem is that the pickups are too hot for their somewhat flabby response. It's the age old problem of audio engineering - It's easy to add more to a signal, it's really hard to slurp it out if there's too much.

If they were less hot we would get more out of normal EQing, and could then boost the gain to make up for it. But we can't, and the result is that the input is over-gassed and saturated in a non-musical way. When you add distortion, those unwanted bits of frequency just turn to white noise.

Fortunately, we do have the technology. And it's really old technology.

So, “The RAT” is an old distortion pedal. Kurt Cobain had one. It is known to many people for its (apparently) nice fuzzy sound, but known to most metal players for sounding terrible. However, the RAT also has an unusual, and quite powerful, EQ which contributes to it's tight sound.

Making use of that Filter knob can really tighten up these not wonderful pickups. Sadly we can't just run it at zero gain, because it does odd things to the rest to the rest of the circuit, but we can run it at almost nothing and with the filter up at about 90%. That really tightens it up, and also gives us more control over the hotness. And when you stick that in front of the amp, then you’re well away. 

So what is the whole signal chain?

Guitar -> Tuner -> “Dark Mouse” RAT Clone -> HoToNe Nano Heart Attack -> Noise gate -> Cab Sim -> Audio interface

Like I say, there is no expensive gear in here. I'm sure having a real Mesa/Boogie would help, or indeed a real heavy high gain amp of your choice. The Heart Attack is doing a good job though, and I dare say that whatever amp sim or amp you have would work alright. All I’m working with is bass/mid/treble and nothing else.

The only unexpected bit of gear here is the hardware cab sim I have, which is a CabDryVR. I only really have it for playing through headphones, and if you have a decent cab you won't need it. 

The conclusion is that you can absolutely get a good sound out of this guitar, and while the pickups aren't amazing, they are fine. You do need to fiddle around to get the best out of them, and you may need to invest £30 in a RAT clone, but if you do then you can make it shred. 

The big question remains - Am I still going to upgrade the pickups?

Yes, I am. But I don't feel like it's an urgent need. The sound here is pretty good, good enough that I'm happy to play it for a little while as I'm learning to play a seven. Sure, it matters to sound good, but for right now it's good enough. For a guitar this cheap, this is a good sound.

I do still want Fishman's or EMG707s in there. There is (just about) enough room in the control cavity to fit a 9v without modification (if you stick it to the cavity cover) so it would be a seriously easy swap.

I am feeling positive enough about the SubZero to just stick with it instead of buying a more exciting 7 string. I think the SubZero with upgraded pickups will easily equal a more expensive 7 with stock pickups.

I may come back again when I've ironed out my audio interface bugs and post up some longer and more varied recordings.


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## p88 (Feb 7, 2021)

Glad you're liking it! And cool clips!

FYI on the cavity - if you go EMG, with all the quick connect stuff, you'll likely have to enlarge the cavity by a fair amount, or create a separate one for the battery. Quick connect is great, but it comes at a space premium.

Fortunately, Fishman is a standard pots, wires and solder affair - so it doesn't take much space and the tech was (just) able to fit everything in the cavity (after some minimal routing to the walls of the cavity - all within the footprint of the original cover).


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