# FRFR or Power amp for Helix?



## Eden (Feb 5, 2019)

Hey all,
Might be losing my amp for a while, so I was thinking about building my rig around the Helix floorboard for a while. My question for that is, what would be the benefits of using an frfr speaker to power it (mayhaps the headrush powered cabs, would they keep up while jamming?) versus using a power amp to play the helix through my mesa 2x12 (considering the powerstage)


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## laxu (Feb 5, 2019)

FRFR lets you use the poweramp and cabinet sims, giving you more authentic tones as the speaker is important for the overall sound and the poweramp for the feel of the amp sim.

Running through a poweramp into a guitar cab makes the amp models sound more similar.

Give the Line6 Powercab a look too, it would be the perfect thing to pair with it. It allows a "best of both worlds" approach by simulating speakers without simulating a miced speaker sound. So it will sound more like a real 1x12 cab in a room.


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## maliciousteve (Feb 5, 2019)

I went with the FRFR route. Mostly down to portability. Helix + Speaker or Helix + Poweramp + Cab. 

I went with the Alto TS312 which is exactly the same as the Headrush but I've been told it's voiced a little differently. I love the tone out of it regardless and it's so friggin loud too (2000 watt speaker)


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## devastone (Feb 6, 2019)

I use an ISP Stealth and an Avatar 1-12 cab with my GT-1000. I was torn on FRFR vs guitar cab, since I run through my studio monitors most of the time and direct to FOH, and, I already had the ISP, I went with the Avatar cab for jamming. So, I can kinda get the best of both worlds and I have a cab should I decide to pick up a lunchbox head some day. 

It does sounds good after I figured out how to set up the GT-1000 to run to the cab, I originally tried to use one of their customized output settings but they all sounded like a$$, but when I just went in to recording mode and turned off the cab sims on the main outs, it worked great. So I still have cab sims on the sub outs (XLRS) and no sims on the main outs (1/4"), there is also a knob to control the output on the mains, so I can run both at the same time. 

Laney also makes a powered FRFR in a guitar cab that looks interesting - https://www.laney.co.uk/products/frfr-lfr-112-active-cabinet


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## mogar (Feb 8, 2019)

For me, it'd depend on what I already have. If starting from nothing, I'd go with an FRFR cab. Considering you already own a mesa 2x12, I'd for sure go with a poweramp.


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## Shask (Feb 8, 2019)

The Poweramp and Cab will give the "Amp in the room tone". Using FRFR will give that "Recorded tone" sound. They are dramatically different, and you may or may not get along with one of them. Me personally, I cannot get into FRFR. That recorded tone drives me crazy.


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## budda (Feb 9, 2019)

I'd check out the new Orange power amp along with the classics (peavey, marshall, mesa) given you have a 212 that you are probably used to.


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## littlebadboy (Feb 9, 2019)

I am on the same conundrum. I currently plug my mfx into my Peavey Bandit's power amp section. It works, but I feel something missing as my recording sounds better plugged in straight to my DAW via interface.

I am poor (state worker), so I can't buy a new FRFR. But, I have a Power Amp and a PA speaker lying around somewhere. Would that work better with preamp and cab sims? If yes, I'll pull it out and set it up.


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## budda (Feb 9, 2019)

littlebadboy said:


> I am on the same conundrum. I currently plug my mfx into my Peavey Bandit's power amp section. It works, but I feel something missing as my recording sounds better plugged in straight to my DAW via interface.
> 
> I am poor (state worker), so I can't buy a new FRFR. But, I have a Power Amp and a PA speaker lying around somewhere. Would that work better with preamp and cab sims? If yes, I'll pull it out and set it up.



If you already have the gear, the experiment is free.


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## Deadpool_25 (Feb 9, 2019)

@Eden
Is this for personal use only or are you gigging and/or recording? What amp are you used to using?

If for personal use, I’d personally do a tube power amp and cab. My next best option would be SS power amp and cab, my next option would be one of the FRFR solutions.

All of those are good solutions and that’s just my personal preference order. I had an Axe FX and my favorite way to run it was into the FX return of a tube amp.

Edit: On benefits...

The power amp and cab will retain the feel of a tube amp. There is a certain interaction between a tube power section and a guitar speaker that many people find special. Other people don’t notice a difference so whether this is a benefit is very dependent on the player. One drawback could be weight—tube power amps can be heavy. Probably the biggest “drawback” with this setup is you’re typically going to turn off power amp modeling and cab sims in the Helix. Personally I don’t think turning off power amp modeling is a drawback at all, but others can be bothered by “not using the unit to its full potential.” Turning off cab sims can be a big deal as many people like IR swapping. I get that, but for me I like the simplicity of using one good cab. Otherwise I get option paralysis. 

The SS power amp into a guitar cab doesn’t feel quite like a tube amp to me but that could certainly be in my head. It can sound fantastic and SS power amps are much lighter than tube amps. They can have a much more neutral response so it’s more likely you’ll like having power amp sims on, but that’s all about experimentation. 

Using a SS power amp and FRFR speakers (whether integrated or separate) allows you to use all the options in the Helix. You can use power amp sims and roll IRs as much as you want. One potential drawback is the difference in feel—which you just have to feel for yourself to know it it’s going to be good, bad, or indifferent. I’m not sure whether to say IR swapping is a benefit or drawback. It’s certainly a benefit if recording, but again can cause option paralysis (not to mention can be a money pit) for some.


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## littlebadboy (Feb 9, 2019)

budda said:


> If you already have the gear, the experiment is free.


Right... but they're heavy... I'm lazy... Ok, it's 9:26 and I have to get out of bed already. I'll do the experimenting soon.


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## Jacksonluvr636 (Feb 9, 2019)

I would try it.

I had and sold an AX8 and the one regret is not trying a FRFR. Was just too much of an investment for me.

Could also try a more neutral guitar speaker in a regular cab.


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## Bentaycanada (Feb 9, 2019)

I'm currently running Guitar > HX Stomp > EHX 44 Magnum > Bogner Cab

It's a killer rig, with no real compromise.


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## jfett (Feb 9, 2019)

I owned a helix for a while and for me it was a struggle to get it to sound great through my evh 5150. I tried both using models through the power section and bypassing the models. I spent about 2 weeks tweaking patches and fiddling around with it but in the end i couldn't justify keeping it. I would have liked to try it through a frfr setup. However im sure it comes down to the user, spending enough time with the unit and getting a great tone. My impatient self just got tired of tweaking patches and not actually playing guitar. If i were a gigging/touring dude im sure it could replace a pedalboard and the mess of cables that comes with that.


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## Eden (Feb 11, 2019)

Deadpool_25 said:


> @Eden
> Is this for personal use only or are you gigging and/or recording? What amp are you used to using?
> The power amp and cab will retain the feel of a tube amp. Probably the biggest “drawback” with this setup is you’re typically going to turn off power amp modeling and cab sims in the Helix. Personally I don’t think turning off power amp modeling is a drawback at all, but others can be bothered by “not using the unit to its full potential.” Turning off cab sims can be a big deal as many people like IR swapping. I get that, but for me I like the simplicity of using one good cab. Otherwise I get option paralysis.



Thanks for the response! and I'm used to using a Mark V, which I have been having problems with. As for my goals, the rig would see more use in weekly jam/band practice but I'm hoping these will turn into gigs soon. As far as recording goes, the Helix itself might be my means of recording more often than not. I understand the problem of having option paralysis as my patches for the most part were initially inspired by my actual rig, until I started trying different things.

Also, another thing that I've taken into consideration is the fact that the Helix can process multiple instruments and I'm beginning to tinker with the ideas of running a synth or keyboard through it as well. For this cause, would it make more sense to go the FRFR route? Would lines like those or vocals be better off being ran through a PA as opposed to FRFR? As opposed to cab?


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## Chris Akinhan (Jun 11, 2020)

BluGuitar Amp1 vs SD PowerStage 170 vs Orange Pedal Baby



This review should be of interest to users of Helix, Kemper, Axe FX, and/or any other Amp emulation.

I just did a side by side comparison of power amps for Helix dialing in several tones on the Helix in the mid gain range for Blues, Blues Rock, Classic Rock genres. I plugged the out from Helix directly into these at line level and directly into the Amp1 return for the power amp stage only. I’ve compared the PS 170 before but this is the first time I’ve done a back to back with all three.



Conclusions and Notes:



PowerStage 170



Plenty of power/volume in small to medium sized venues or stage volume only.

I’ve heard people describe the PowerStage as sounding “sterile” compared to the Pedal Baby. I have to concur. It is more sterile sounding compared to it and outright dead sounding compared to the Amp1. After many comparisons back and forth between all three I believe I know exactly what is missing in the PS 170. It is missing a large amount of the natural harmonics produced by the tube amp, and since Helix is not super great at reproducing these, they are glaringly missing. The sound is there but there are large “gaps” in the harmonics from one amp to the next.



There is no “bounce” or “give” when you play. It feels completely “digital” or non-organic.



Orange Pedal Baby



It definitely sounds BETTER and like one reviewer on youtube recently stated, “more amp like”. Even though it was better, no matter how much I EQ’d Helix, there was still a lot of mojo and oomph missing. I WAS ABLE to increase some of this on the Pedal Baby itself by increasing the bass dial resonance, as well as reducing the treble dial resonance to more closely match my speaker. However, even though it had MORE body, presence, and harmonics than the Power Stage, it still lacked a glaringly large number of the harmonics that the Amp1 produces and although it also FELT slightly better to play, it still felt mechanical and non-organic.



BluGuitar Amp1



Just absolutely stellar in comparison to both of the others. When you take a Helix tone and send it through the Amp1 power amp you get:

1) The FEEL of a tube amp… that bounce and feedback is there… but I’m still playing a digital emulator! Best of both worlds.

2) Tons of transparent power on tap

3) It SOUNDS like a real tube amp with a glorious array of tube harmonics.

If I put the Amp1 at 100% for sound/feel, the PowerStage is about 65% and the Pedal Baby is like 70% at 12 oclock dials and maybe 78% when adjusting dials to match your speaker.

Conclusion: There is still no better option than a used Amp1 (~$400) for amplifying something like the Helix. I still think Thomas could make a killing just selling his nano tube power section only for ~$450 - $500.



What Helix user wouldn't want the feel and sound of a real tube amp?


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