# ABM 8 string fulcrum tremolo



## daemon barbeque (Jan 22, 2009)

I was in ABM factory yesterday ,to get my 3210 8 piece bridge ,and the developer was cool enough to sit and discuss with me about a possible floyd or wilkinson type fulcrum tremeolo.

We discussed about many aspects from price to material . I told him I will talk to you guys first and we will see what everyone wants. I am going to contact luthiers personally too ,so it's possible.

He wants a minimum amount of 50 bridges ,and that's a fair deal i think. Price is between 300 and 400 dollars for now ,but that's just a assumption.

So what do you guys think about it?


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## Ze Kink (Jan 22, 2009)

Tremolos FTL 

...But I'm sure there's some people here who are interested.


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## daemon barbeque (Jan 22, 2009)

Well I too use hardtail with the ABM 3210s ,but many people where willing to have something made for the 8 string lovers ,so I asked him politely and he was willing to help.


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## darren (Jan 22, 2009)

Ze Kink said:


> Tremolos FTL
> 
> ...But I'm sure there's some people here who are interested.



That's a bit of a pointless post in a thread where someone is trying to help the community by working with a supplier to provide something that's currently not available on the market.


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## ohio_eric (Jan 22, 2009)

I would make sure the builders on here know about this. That is a much easier and likelier path to 50 units. 

Thanks for trying to get this started.


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## daemon barbeque (Jan 22, 2009)

ohio_eric said:


> I would make sure the builders on here know about this. That is a much easier and likelier path to 50 units.
> 
> Thanks for trying to get this started.



My pleasure Eric!
It's a bummer that the kahler is the only supplier of 8 string tremolos and noone is ready to do something.
ABM is willing to do if we get enough people together ,and since I am still in berlin as ABM is ,I can organise it personally.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 22, 2009)

Anyone know how stiff an 8 string fulcrum trem would be? Lee, I'm looking in your direction


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## yevetz (Jan 22, 2009)




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## bulletbass man (Jan 22, 2009)

yevetz said:


>


 
they aren't made yet 

Honestly it's great that they are doing this. I've never used an ABM bridge before but they are high quality I imagine. Maybe this could influence Gotoh to make one. I fucking love Gotoh trems.


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## daemon barbeque (Jan 22, 2009)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> Anyone know how stiff an 8 string fulcrum trem would be? Lee, I'm looking in your direction



We discussed it yesterday ,and he was talking about assymetric springs. I think it's doable.



bulletbass man said:


> they aren't made yet
> 
> Honestly it's great that they are doing this. I've never used an ABM bridge before but they are high quality I imagine. Maybe this could influence Gotoh to make one. I fucking love Gotoh trems.



Hahah ,yeah they are top-notch.


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## VforVendetta00 (Jan 22, 2009)

Dude, thats a great idea, and while u're at it can u find out if they're still making the 7string headless system?


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## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 22, 2009)

daemon barbeque said:


> We discussed it yesterday ,and he was talking about assymetric springs. I think it's doable..



He mentioned that before but I don't know what that trick is.


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## hufschmid (Jan 22, 2009)

Great idea man for those who need an 8 string tremolo  

I think companys must offer more options when it comes to 8 string hardware and bridges


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## Koshchei (Jan 22, 2009)

Some design considerations:

1) Ratio of fanned-fret 8's to single-scale: The design may need to be flexible to accommodate both.
2) Knife-edge vs Ball-bearing: 8 strings have a lot more string tension, which may cause premature knife-edge wear. Ball bearings may be a better choice, as they distribute the tension over a much larger surface area.
3) Materials: Different materials sound different but also exhibit different wear properties. Have these been discussed yet?


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## MoNsTaR (Jan 22, 2009)

if they could make a more affordable version, then i would defenitly take one  
i need money XD


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## somn (Jan 22, 2009)

Koshchei said:


> Some design considerations:
> 
> 1) Ratio of fanned-fret 8's to single-scale: The design may need to be flexible to accommodate both.
> 2) Knife-edge vs Ball-bearing: 8 strings have a lot more string tension, which may cause premature knife-edge wear. Ball bearings may be a better choice, as they distribute the tension over a much larger surface area.
> 3) Materials: Different materials sound different but also exhibit different wear properties. Have these been discussed yet?



fan fret would be to much for now for them maby later and i think the ball bearing thing is sooo close to a kahler design that it would just be asking for legal action kahler went broke the first time fighting to keep there designs safe its better to get better materials than trying someone elses ideas

i would set an order but i just baught alot of gear bummer


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## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 22, 2009)

MoNsTaR said:


> if they could make a more affordable version, then i would defenitly take one
> i need money XD





For a high quality (and it's ABM, you know it's going to be) CUSTOM run of 8 string trems, I'm honestly surprised it's not twice as much. I don't think it can get more affordable than what they're already asking.


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## troyguitar (Jan 22, 2009)

somn said:


> i think the ball bearing thing is sooo close to a kahler design that it would just be asking for legal action kahler went broke the first time fighting to keep there designs safe its better to get better materials than trying someone elses ideas



Ibanez has the ZR and Parker has its trem, both of which utilize ball bearings. It's probably the way to go for an 8.


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## the_arod (Jan 22, 2009)

hufschmid said:


> Great idea man for those who need an 8 string tremolo
> 
> I think companys must offer more options when it comes to 8 string hardware and bridges


true, same goes for 7 strings, I haven't found a fixed bridge with fine tuners like the Ibanez RG 2228 has, would love that


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## canuck brian (Jan 22, 2009)

Hipshot uses a ball bearing design in their trems as well - they're awesome.

I'd be down for a unit or two just to get the ball rolling on this with ABM as ETS hardware just isn't responding to me anymore....


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## phaeded0ut (Jan 22, 2009)

Timur, 

You lucky bum! Getting to natter with the folks of AMB Müller & Sohn! Ok, the envy is dripped out... LOL!

That's not a bad price at all, and a shame I'm not a builder. If they were to build one for a 7-stringer, I'd be all over one to get rid of the [email protected][email protected]#$!!! Floyd Rose double locking thing on my Fernandez Sustainer 7-string. But this is for 8-stringers. Again, many thanks for starting this thread! 

Wonder if other boutique luthiers could be contacted about this via, ABM Müller & Sohn, directly about this offer? Not sure how many would jump on this from this side of the pond, but I do hope that they'd be interested in an alternative to Kahler (though I personally really dig Kahlers, I know many do not).


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## daemon barbeque (Jan 22, 2009)

VforVendetta00 said:


> Dude, thats a great idea, and while u're at it can u find out if they're still making the 7string headless system?



I think I can get this done...And I am shure it oesn't have to be in higher quantities ,since they just need to make the headpiece ,the bridges are 1 per string.

I am going to do a seperate thread about it when Talk to Peter again.
So stay tuned about the headless 7/8..Cheers!



phaeded0ut said:


> Timur,
> 
> You lucky bum! Getting to natter with the folks of AMB Müller & Sohn! Ok, the envy is dripped out... LOL!
> 
> ...



Hahahah! They already did some 7 versions ,at least Peter told me so. I can ask him about that so maybe we can get this sorted.
Let me PM you when I talk to him next week again ok?


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## dpm (Jan 22, 2009)

I'm interested, and there's something else I'd like to get happening with them if they're interested


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## daemon barbeque (Jan 22, 2009)

So Ball-bearing is a good idea ,and it makes it easier to "pass" the floyd patent problems .

The main question is locking system + locking nut vs Wilkinson style and locking tuners.

The material will be high quality. The sustain block is bronze and the joint points has a stainless steel stripe to prevent screw hole wear.

The fanned fret idea is cool too ,and it's doable with ball-bearing systems. Maybe 2 different baseplates can make it possible ,where the fan angle comes into play. I may discuss it with Peter too!

The ideas are cool ,keep them coming!



dpm said:


> I'm interested, and there's something else I'd like to get happening with them if they're interested



PM me!


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## dpm (Jan 22, 2009)

I think I'm inclined toward the locking version tbh


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## phaeded0ut (Jan 22, 2009)

Here are the individual pieces that were mentioned:

ABM- High Quality Guitar Parts (If you navigate their website, you'll need to go to "Products" / "Guitar Bridges" / (3rd from the left of the bottom row of thumbnails.) 

After the request for a direct link to the pictures, had to use a hosting site:
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/...itar&#37;20Pieces Parts/guitarbridges_3_6.jpg

Really wish that Bunker would've kept on making a similiar bridge piece (his had fine tuners on them).



daemon barbeque said:


> Hahahah! They already did some 7 versions ,at least Peter told me so. I can ask him about that so maybe we can get this sorted.
> Let me PM you when I talk to him next week again ok?




THANK YOU!!!!!!

Oh, I completely fudged this, Status Graphite Status Graphite. The finest hand-made graphite basses and guitars. Made in England. would probably be another potential purchaser, too.


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## daemon barbeque (Jan 22, 2009)

phaeded0ut said:


> Here are the individual pieces that were mentioned:
> 
> ABM- High Quality Guitar Parts
> 
> Really wish that Bunker would've kept on making a similiar bridge piece (his had fine tuners on them).



Can you link directly the picture? The site opens allways with the same picture ,and I am shure you don't mean that vintage bridge LOL.



phaeded0ut said:


> Here are the individual pieces that were mentioned:
> 
> ABM- High Quality Guitar Parts
> 
> ...



That's cool man thank you!



phaeded0ut said:


> Here are the individual pieces that were mentioned:
> 
> ABM- High Quality Guitar Parts
> 
> ...



That's cool man thank you!


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## troyguitar (Jan 22, 2009)

daemon barbeque said:


> The main question is locking system + locking nut vs Wilkinson style and locking tuners.



Gotta have the locking system + locking nut!


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## darren (Jan 22, 2009)

The individual guitar headless tuners:


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## daemon barbeque (Jan 22, 2009)

Yess!
So What about this
We use those individual ones ,and combine it with a baseplate and ball-bearing mechanism.
So we can make a 7 string ,8 string normal ,and 8 string fanned varieties!!!
I think that will be a cool system.


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## phaeded0ut (Jan 23, 2009)

Many thanks to Darren for finding the tuning machine version (for headless guitars) and if they were to combine it with a base plate that allows for either 4 degrees of motion (left, right, forward and backward) or 6 degrees of motion (left, right, forward, backward, up and down) (the latter to accommodate instruments with rounder fingerboards), with the ability to mount the individual 3801's for guitar (and 3901's for bass) in either normal or fanned positions might give enough variety to give them more incentive to create these in larger numbers.
The point with the design is to try and make it as scalable for them as possible.


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## daemon barbeque (Jan 23, 2009)

Yess! That's definetly what I was thinking the whole day. The only concern is the tuning heads ,they are too big and impossible to pull up with.
I will discuss it with Peter on Monday.
I hope everything will be fine ,since with just a different bas-plate ,we can have a multiscale trem ,a 7 string trem and an 8 /9 string.

This is just the upper side of the trem ofcourse ,we have to design the spring/ sustain block for it too.

Thanx for the suggestion guys ,I will discuss those things and come with a design soon!
Stay tuned!


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## vansinn (Jan 24, 2009)

Really great thread  A few issues which hasn't been discussed:

The type of saddle can have an impact on comfort and playing style, i.e. knife saddles may not work well for a player relying on palm muting.

I'm familiar with the referred ADM headless saddles (have considered them for my own (unfinished) design), and would love to see a design based on those on a moving mounting plate - actually Nordstrand in Sweeden has such a (knife pivot) design ready IIRC..
However, if such saddles are mounted on a pivoting plate, I foresee problems for two reasons:
. Either because the whole mechanism moves up'n'down and thus will raise/lower the string action..
. Or, in the case of a mechanism moving behind fixed (maybe roller) saddles, because the distance between saddles and tuners doesn't stay fixed as the mechanism is moved up/down.

For a headless design, some clearence is needed between body and tuners; thus:
. The tuners either cannot be mounted (low) level to the body and will need to be raised, which can be problematic on instruments with strings low over the body..
. Or the tuners will need to be mounted at an updraft angle, causing a problem with string angle over the saddles.

Whatever the design, I believe ball/needle bearings should be applied.


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## daemon barbeque (Jan 24, 2009)

vansinn said:


> Really great thread  A few issues which hasn't been discussed:
> 
> The type of saddle can have an impact on comfort and playing style, i.e. knife saddles may not work well for a player relying on palm muting.
> 
> ...



Great points!

It's going to be %90 Ball bearing. It might make the price 20-30 dollars higher ,but it's worth.

The modular design gives us flexibility ,and clearing the disadvantages will be a real endeavour.
But what we might get could be a cross design between floyd ,wilkinson and steinberger headless ,and it can allow us to adjust the bridge to 6/7/8/9 and fanned fret designs.
I am really excited about it and I know it will cost me my precious time ,but I am stoked about the idea to have the ability to create something new ,and I am going to use this opportunity!

Thank you very much for your support!


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## EATyourGUITAR (May 17, 2009)

has anyone considered that there are serious problems with any tremolo fan fret system that should be addressed? for example the saddles farther away from the pivot point move more than the ones close to the pivot point. so your stretching the crap out of your treble strings and your bass strings dont even move much at all? seems like some serious engineering is required to address the problem or the fan fret 8 string trem is going to be something that people build just to say they did it.


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## Jeroenofzo (May 17, 2009)

I don't know if it helps, but i've had some contact with ABM these weeks, and they told me that the 3210 bridges are being made end summer, that are different heights.


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## guitarplayerone (May 18, 2009)

EATyourGUITAR said:


> has anyone considered that there are serious problems with any tremolo fan fret system that should be addressed? for example the saddles farther away from the pivot point move more than the ones close to the pivot point. so your stretching the crap out of your treble strings and your bass strings dont even move much at all? seems like some serious engineering is required to address the problem or the fan fret 8 string trem is going to be something that people build just to say they did it.



I was going to write out some torquing equations and the effects that they would have on simple harmonic motion (flutters) for a trem I started designing based on the edge pro.

furthermore we should use some sort of commercially available piezo saddles for this bridge, it would be a huge waste to not incorporate this into the design. or at least allow for the x-insterts to fit. 

why would the saddles at the back move more? If you have a tension-balanced set of strings, they should move the same way the other saddles do. Bu a possible issue is- do we take the tone block and mount it diagonally following the line of the strings, or will we need to cut out eight separate tone blocks, or do something even more exotic to get the maximum possible torquing (therefore the best 'fluttering'). And if we cut it into pieces and weld it this will affect tone


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## vansinn (May 18, 2009)

EATyourGUITAR said:


> has anyone considered that there are serious problems with any tremolo fan fret system that should be addressed? for example the saddles farther away from the pivot point move more than the ones close to the pivot point. so your stretching the crap out of your treble strings and your bass strings dont even move much at all? seems like some serious engineering is required to address the problem or the fan fret 8 string trem is going to be something that people build just to say they did it.





guitarplayerone said:


> I was going to write out some torquing equations and the effects that they would have on simple harmonic motion (flutters) for a trem I started designing based on the edge pro.
> 
> furthermore we should use some sort of commercially available piezo saddles for this bridge, it would be a huge waste to not incorporate this into the design. or at least allow for the x-insterts to fit.
> 
> why would the saddles at the back move more? If you have a tension-balanced set of strings, they should move the same way the other saddles do. Bu a possible issue is- do we take the tone block and mount it diagonally following the line of the strings, or will we need to cut out eight separate tone blocks, or do something even more exotic to get the maximum possible torquing (therefore the best 'fluttering'). And if we cut it into pieces and weld it this will affect tone



Hmm.. may depend on the specific design and how you look at it..
Whatever.. with a pivoting arrangement, I see the exact opposite scenario, i.e. that the low strings may move more = more pitch change, than the high strings.
It also looks to me like this must be greatly influenced by the posts/pivot-point angle relative to the strings.

I agree on piezo saddles. And I'd love to see those equations, how you arrived at the definitions, and (guessing on methods) which software tools you use. If available, do pm/mail me 


@Timur & Lee: How is the progress? any news from ABM about what they're potentialy doing on this?


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## MTech (May 18, 2009)

the_arod said:


> true, same goes for 7 strings, I haven't found a fixed bridge with fine tuners like the Ibanez RG 2228 has, would love that


What about the schaller ones...


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## daemon barbeque (May 19, 2009)

vansinn said:


> Hmm.. may depend on the specific design and how you look at it..
> Whatever.. with a pivoting arrangement, I see the exact opposite scenario, i.e. that the low strings may move more = more pitch change, than the high strings.
> It also looks to me like this must be greatly influenced by the posts/pivot-point angle relative to the strings.
> 
> ...



ABM is ready to shoot for a Wilkinson like 8-9 string. But I really want to get something unique and something new.

There are flaws on every design and accepting the flaws and just copying others is not the right path to go.

Give them time ,they are working on somethin' hehe.


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## halsinden (May 26, 2009)

daemon barbeque said:


> ABM is ready to shoot for a Wilkinson like 8-9 string. But I really want to get something unique and something new.
> 
> There are flaws on every design and accepting the flaws and just copying others is not the right path to go.
> 
> Give them time ,they are working on somethin' hehe.



just wanting to register some sort of interest in this, but also to ask:

i'm now very much 'into' kahler trems and find returning to a floyd rose-like design deeply uncomfortable. i'm slightly lost on what the ball-bearing idea is and how it works, but the major point i'm interested by is whether palm muting will change the pitch, as it can on FR trems. it's a point that really puts me off non-kahler bridges.

apologies for being an knucklehead with this.

i'm chasing something of a holy grail with this, but i'd love nothing more than to find a 7 headless tremolo bridge that works (and is as compact) like a kahler. am i way off the mark with what's being discussed here?

H


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## daemon barbeque (May 26, 2009)

Contrary ,it's a very good input Hal!
They alreaday have a 7 string headless system ,but not a trem.
You already have the kahler ,and if you are happy with it ,stick with it. For the headless trem idea ,it would be too special to make it happen. But you can pay 800 pounds and let it be done custom to your specs LOL.


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## halsinden (May 27, 2009)

daemon barbeque said:


> Contrary ,it's a very good input Hal!
> They alreaday have a 7 string headless system ,but not a trem.
> You already have the kahler ,and if you are happy with it ,stick with it. For the headless trem idea ,it would be too special to make it happen. But you can pay 800 pounds and let it be done custom to your specs LOL.



i've spoken to my chap at kahler a number of times about the issue and he's basically confirmed that they have no plans to create a headless trem option. in principle i'd be happy to make use of a non-kahler trem, even if it were through the body like an FR-style, if it meant that the downward pressure from the hand when palm muting would mean no change in pitch (something that, to me, seems a totally bonkers element of FR design). with all this considered, is that still looking impossible with these ABM planned designs?

in an absolute ideal world, i'd love to have roter make an all-graphite copy of the steinberger bodyless guitar, in 7 string, with a headless-but-kahler-style-trem, baritone scale and capable of taking heavy gauge strings, loaded with covered BKP warpigs with the custom wiring design i came up with for my current roters. that would be amazing.

H


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## daemon barbeque (May 27, 2009)

Yeah that would be amazing LOL

The headless tremolo like Steibergers tremolo is doable ,but too expensive for ABM to prototype. They might sell maybe 10-20 of them and that's it. it takes too much time and resources to plan and build those things.


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## halsinden (May 27, 2009)

daemon barbeque said:


> Yeah that would be amazing LOL
> 
> The headless tremolo like Steibergers tremolo is doable ,but too expensive for ABM to prototype. They might sell maybe 10-20 of them and that's it. it takes too much time and resources to plan and build those things.



sorry, forgot to mention - (in the ideal world scenario) the headless 7 trem is also like the old klein / steinberger 'trans-trem' designs.

so it's not really ever looking possible even for the basic 7 headless trem? that's tragic.

H


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## Durero (May 27, 2009)

I've wanted the same thing as you Hal for the last 15 years.

I've got a prototype 7-string headless bridge consisting of 7 LSR gearless tuners on a ballbearing-mounted frame. It would work with Kahler bridge saddles for any scale or multi-scale design.

But I've abandoned that development path since I hit on the idea of multichannel pickups with one output per string. I'm currently modifying my Raven prototype with this multichannel system (hence the old mechanical trem mentioned above is now removed) and will be able to have a +-2 octave transposing trem by applying an electronic pitch shifting "whammy" effect to each string. This requires my guitar being plugged into my multichannel audio interface and into my computer as otherwise I'd have to buy a separate guitar pre-amp for each string, but the upcoming AX-PC software version of the AXE-FX unit will suit my needs perfectly.


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## technomancer (May 27, 2009)

Durero, interestingly enough I'm playing with something similar using piezo saddles and an independent preamp for each string. I should be building a prototype FET preamp in the next couple of days. The idea is to run a serial cable (9 lines, so up to 8 signals with shared ground) that breaks out into individual 1/4" cables into an Alesis MultiMix 8 firewire mixer. I have no idea how well this is going to work, but the possibility of "normal" pup output + the individual string piezos for midi etc etc etc has me interested and willing to experiment.

I've also been having sick ideas about the ABM 3801 single string headless bridges, which can be ordered with a piezo saddle. Problem is they're freaking $100 a pop


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## vansinn (May 27, 2009)

So, just because I had the ide of separate pups per string into separate preamps mid 80's doesn't mean others didn't get the same idea 
In order to use this, sometime around '86, I started on a mixed analog/digital 3U 19" modular rig based on separate multiplexed analog, digital audio and control/data busses with routable devices, but never completed the project.

Guys, doesn't this multi-channel topic call for a separate discusion! Guitar Electronics.. section? Else you're welcome to email me (contact in profile).


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## Durero (May 27, 2009)

Yeah single-string pickups have been around since the '50s and multi-channel outs since at least the '70s.

Your mulitplexed signals sound fascinating vansinn - please share 

Definitely you should post in the electronics section.
I should have pics to post in the next week or two as well.


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## technomancer (May 27, 2009)

Posted a thread to talk about multi-channel stuff in the pickups / electronics section

Multichannel Guitar Output, Post Your Ideas


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## JonnHatch (Aug 8, 2009)

anyyyyyy updates on this???


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## nogg (Oct 30, 2009)

Agile multiscale 8-string discussion

The Fanned Fret Agile Multiscale 8 String Project


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## vansinn (Oct 30, 2009)

nogg said:


> Agile multiscale 8-string discussion
> 
> The Fanned Fret Agile Multiscale 8 String Project



When referring to a multi-page discussion where the main topic isn't the topic at hand, please refer which post(s) do discuss the topic at hand..


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## phaeded0ut (Oct 30, 2009)

Hoping that with ABM tooling up back to business that we might see something on this front. I've seen a system that looks like someone took a group of 6 of the individual string units, placed them on a floyd rose plate and arm system. Here's the link to Strandberg: Strandberg&#8217;s Floyd Rose Replacement Tremolo


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