# So another guitar maker has lost their mind?



## Robby the Robot (Sep 17, 2013)

https://www.facebook.com/pages/ViK-Guitars/133171110056707


Just saw this. Don't really know what to say. It's kind of a shame though such great guitar luthiers lose their mind and take to social media outlets to vent. Facebook, Twitter, etc. aren't always the best way to let out frustrations. Just sayin'. Don't hit send.


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## isispelican (Sep 17, 2013)

that wasnt a very smart move, even if he's 100% right


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## Negav (Sep 17, 2013)

I understand his frustration. If he really can't patent or copyright his designs then he has all the right to be frustrated and mad against those companies; however, he shouldn't have written that on the business page.


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## BlackMastodon (Sep 17, 2013)

That's a damn shame.  I absolutely love ViK's work and have been fantasizing about having a build form him one day but that is a really unprofessional thing to post, not to mention kind of dumb. I can kinda understand being peeved about people copying your work/designs but Watty said it himself there that ViK started out doing the same (as I assume most luthiers have) and at least they were crediting him for his designs and not taking credit for them. It's pretty hard to come up with a completely original guitar design so anyone can claim that they were copied from a strat or a Les Paul shape in some way.


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## Xaios (Sep 17, 2013)

Here we go again...


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## ONE (Sep 17, 2013)

Seems like a very immature move on his part. He should at-least discuss it with the companies involved, and if they can't come to a solution so be it. This is something that happens in every creative field of work. Even his Duality shape is somewhat reminiscent of Schecter's Avenger. He should grow up and realize that in this day and age people have every right to make a product similar to yours, even if you "came up with it first". If you don't like it, then improve your product make it have something that the competitors don't have. ViK is clearly a creative luthier, I'm sure he could come up with something that would keep him ahead of the competition. And while he has every right to be frustrated posting his opinions on social media was probably not the best choice.

/Rant


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## Captain Butterscotch (Sep 17, 2013)

le sigh

The frustration is understandable, I agree. This is just not at all professional.


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## DVRP (Sep 17, 2013)

God this argument is present in almost everything now a days. Good to know people just don't act this way about band's drawing influence from each other. I mean this argument is hundreds of years old. 

Personally I'd take it as a compliment that I'm doing something right. And someone brought up the most compelling argument from the consumers point of view; Why would I go to Vik for a $5000+ instrument when I could do it with another builder for less, or hell even try and make one myself at the end of the day.


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## Captain Butterscotch (Sep 17, 2013)

DVRP said:


> God this argument is present in almost everything now a days. Good to know people just don't act this way about band's drawing influence from each other. I mean this argument is hundreds of years old.
> 
> Personally I'd take it as a compliment that I'm doing something right. And someone brought up the most compelling argument from the consumers point of view; Why would I go to Vik for a $5000+ instrument when I could do it with another builder for less, or hell even try and make one myself at the end of the day.



This is a valid and very very relevant point.


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## DVRP (Sep 17, 2013)

And I can understand his frustration because it's lost customers/potential income if someone does go with another builder for a design like his. BUT as a luthier of fine custom instruments in a niche market that have a very long turn around, you'd think you would see the flaw in the business model.

Edit: pretty sure blackmachine did ;D


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## darren (Sep 17, 2013)

DVRP said:


> And I can understand his frustration because it's lost customers/potential income if someone does go with another builder for a design like his. BUT as a luthier of fine custom instruments in a niche market that have a very long turn around, you'd think you would see the flaw in the business model.
> 
> Edit: pretty sure blackmachine did ;D



Just because a business makes a high-end product in limited quantities, with (justifiably) high prices and long wait times does NOT give others the right to make cheap knock-offs to satisfy "market demand". It's not a "flawed" business model... it's a successful one that's been employed by high-end product designers and manufacturers for decades.

Why guitars cost what they do: Part I | Decibel Guitars
Why guitars cost what they do: Part II | Decibel Guitars

You can't make the argument that "i'm not taking business away from the original creator, because i was never going to buy their product (at the price they're asking) anyway." That just doesn't fly. Cheap copies dilute the brand and lower the value of the original. Ask any art collector who's seen forgeries of original works they own. 

There are many of us creating original work who won't make copies of others' designs, whether they've been filed with the patent office or not. It's about respecting the work of others, rather than trying to cash in on a trend and make a quick buck. We are holding ourselves to the highest standards of design, craft, quality control, sustainable and ethical business practices. Do you pay extra for that? You're damn right you do.

If you want a Fiero with a Ferrari body kit, don't expect Ferrari to be happy about it.


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## Pezshreds (Sep 17, 2013)

I wonder if there will be a Strictly 7 inspired anger video uploaded from this


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## glassmoon0fo (Sep 17, 2013)

darren said:


> Just because a business makes a high-end product in limited quantities, with (justifiably) high prices and long wait times does NOT give others the right to make cheap knock-offs to satisfy "market demand". It's not a "flawed" business model... it's a successful one that's been employed by high-end product designers and manufacturers for decades.
> 
> Why guitars cost what they do: Part I | Decibel Guitars
> Why guitars cost what they do: Part II | Decibel Guitars
> ...


 
Understand where you're coming from, but all this frustration is coming from EXPECTATION. You and Vik EXPECT others to respect and not copy your designs. Dude, unless there's some sort of lawful repercussion for copying a design, someone somewhere is going to make their money and not miss a wink of sleep over it. If there are not any legal restraints, what do you think is going to happen? Projecting your own moral sensibilities on other people is basically beating your head on a brick wall, and mistake #1.

Mistake #2 was openly dragging a personal beef onto a public forum like FB. Sure, he has a right to state his opinion, but usually when someone has to say "I have a right to state my opinion", a really unpopular opinion follows and negativity insures. Plus, he could have at the very least stated it more professionally. Calling out others for doing exactly what he did at the beginning of his career (I don't have the full story here, just stating the word on the street, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that or any of this) is immature and not much different than a tantrum.

I understand the frustration, but I'm not sure how that post was supposed to help the situation in any way AT ALL. Still, I hope I can own a Vik-built guitar someday, the artistry of his work has not been lost on me just because someone likes his design enough to ape it. I'd consider it a form of flattery. Ola Strandberg does.

Lastly, I have the feeling that the only people defending Vik on this one are fellow frustrated builders and potential or past customers kissing ass. You know in your heart of hearts that was a dumbass move.


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## DVRP (Sep 17, 2013)

darren said:


> Just because a business makes a high-end product in limited quantities, with (justifiably) high prices and long wait times does NOT give others the right to make cheap knock-offs to satisfy "market demand". It's not a "flawed" business model... it's a successful one that's been employed by high-end product designers and manufacturers for decades.
> 
> Why guitars cost what they do: Part I | Decibel Guitars
> Why guitars cost what they do: Part II | Decibel Guitars
> ...



How has any copy of a blackmachine built diluted the brand and lowered the value of that company? I still see them highly regarded and spoken very greatly of. 

I only know this situation from my perspective which is that of a consumer. And would you agree that the post Vik made is unprofessional? Because if not I question what you think professional is.


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## mcd (Sep 17, 2013)

my hope is the backlash from so many people causes orders to be cancelled....Then I can get in on the short side of the wait. Mwahahahahaha

edit: and Watty kinda owned him on his page so kudos brother


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## glassmoon0fo (Sep 17, 2013)

^It wont. The only people that care if there's a knock-off of a high end guitar are high end luthiers, Vik owners and Vik himself. It really ISN'T that big a deal to anyone else, methinks. Vik Guitars will continue to prosper 

EDIT: Trying to put out fires here.


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## Captain Butterscotch (Sep 17, 2013)

I know you're just joking but I really hope that there won't be any meaningful backlash. VIK is still a fantastic luthier with a reputation for quality work. I hope that a silly post on social media doesn't hurt his business.


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## DVRP (Sep 17, 2013)

I hope not too, but will  if there is


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## redstone (Sep 17, 2013)

Defaming and cheating are an aggression, copying isn't. Humans have a right for intellectual recognition and an average income. No intellectual property, and no incomes based on the product of work & possessions are justifiable.


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## AxeHappy (Sep 17, 2013)

I just think it's odd that we live in a world where people call a business owner posting about people ripping off his designs unprofessional and not the people ripping off his designs.


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## Randy (Sep 17, 2013)

AxeHappy said:


> I just think it's odd that we live in a world where people call a business owner posting about people ripping off his designs unprofessional and not the people ripping off his designs.



In most cases, I defend this forum to the death but what you're describing is part and parcel of the attitude around here.


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## DVRP (Sep 17, 2013)

AxeHappy said:


> I just think it's odd that we live in a world where people call a business owner posting about people ripping off his designs unprofessional and not the people ripping off his designs.



Unless he has a suit currently against them why name names? It's childish. Which is the unprofessional part. The guy is obviously upset on some level and I'm sure most of us can understand it, but he should've kept that post on his personal facebook page. Don't shit where you eat.


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## leonardo7 (Sep 17, 2013)

VIK DID NOTHING WRONG. So people can rip off his designs and hes "not allowed" to state how he feels? WTF

Hes a great guy and is the best luthier around and I have no problem with him stating how he feels. 

If a new restaurant opens up around the corner and has stolen the recipes from your favorite restaurant and has those dishes for half the price but they arent quite as good but good enough then your gonna be stoked to save the cash. But dont you think the restaurant who's recipes were stolen and who in actuality still has better food is gonna be unhappy? 

IMO its idiotic and just plain stupid to not see this from Viks side. If you want to copy some old design like Fender or Gibson then go ahead and do it all day long cause its already been done to death, plus those are HUGE companies. Dont expect to copy a design from a young, new, very successful, up and coming, world class, one man show luthier and expect for him to not say something about it on his facebook page. I am dumbfounded by the shitty attitudes of lots of dudes who are really just angry inside that they have never played a Vik and never will be able to afford one. Its like they take this as a finally having a reason to justify and make themselves feel good about that reality. Its not a big deal. His design got copied, someone made money off of HIS design and he has chosen to find it frustrating in a very small way. Big deal !!! You cant be controlling over everyones reaction and expect him to be OK with it. Its his design and unless your in his shoes you wont understand. I understand because I am an understanding person. Vik isnt raising hell, hes not bitching, hes simply discussing how he feels and bringing it to anyones attention who wants to listen. Nothing wrong with that. Hopefully he achieved something and now people will think twice before copying his design. It makes those luthiers look cheap and fake to copy such a new design anyways.


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## DVRP (Sep 17, 2013)

Bias is as Bias does. I just heard about this and Im the average joe in this situation. Looks bad from my point of view, Ill stop stating that now dun wanna get banned. And you're totally right he probably achieved that, and any publicity is good publicity right? 

/close thread lol


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## darren (Sep 17, 2013)

Let me put it this way... 

Most of you guys are musicians. If your livelihood comes exclusively from making music, do you consider it flattery or theft if someone takes the product of your creative output, slaps their name on it and makes money from it?

As a _consumer_ of music, do you support the original artist, or do you support the thief?

The "nobody is harmed" attitude is bullshit. It's a culture of entitlement where people feel free to take what's not theirs simply because it suits their short term desires. Are we really living in an era of complete ethical abandon?

And FYI, Ola Strandberg does allow people to license and use his designs _for non-commercial use_ under Creative Commons licensing guidelines. He is not happy or "flattered" when a company tries to use his design to make money, as some companies have tried to do recently.


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## rectifryer (Sep 17, 2013)

I agree ^^^ 100%


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## rectifryer (Sep 17, 2013)

redstone said:


> Defaming and cheating are an aggression, copying isn't. Humans have a right for intellectual recognition and an average income. No intellectual property, and no incomes based on the product of work & possessions are justifiable.




Hahaha ok.


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## User Name (Sep 17, 2013)

sure, people rip off his designs. personally i would find this to be a sign that i have done well and therefore take it as a compliment. 

because i do not believe this will affect his company in the slightest, and even if it were to. there is no law or anything saying people cant make copies or variations of someones guitar. i mean its a piece of wood for god sake! it can only be cut and angled SOO many ways. its almost like a death metal band suing another death metal band for stealing their "break down".... is quite ridiculous IMO


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## rectifryer (Sep 17, 2013)

User Name said:


> sure, people rip off his designs. personally i would find this to be a sign that i have done well and therefore take it as a compliment.
> 
> because i do not believe this will affect his company in the slightest, and even if it were to. there is no law or anything saying people cant make copies or variations of someones guitar. i mean its a piece of wood for god sake! it can only be cut and angled SOO many ways. its almost like a death metal band suing another death metal band for stealing their "break down".... is quite ridiculous IMO


I agree to an extent, but you don't see fender using ibanez headstocks. There are trademarks of companies like that, although I don't know if thats what Vik is mad about.


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## User Name (Sep 18, 2013)

those companies are all well established, there are only so many well extablished companies (ibanez, schecter, esp, prs, fender, gibson, etc.) but there are literally HUNDREDS of no name luthiers around the world. there is no way they could all have their own &quot;unique&quot; style. im sure somewhere in the world someone has an exact copy guitar they made of a vik and they dont even know it.


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## rectifryer (Sep 18, 2013)

User Name said:


> those companies are all well established, there are only so many well extablished companies (ibanez, schecter, esp, prs, fender, gibson, etc.) but there are literally HUNDREDS of no name luthiers around the world. there is no way they could all have their own &quot;unique&quot; style. im sure somewhere in the world someone has an exact copy guitar they made of a vik and they dont even know it.


I guess it would help if Vik would actually tell us what the other brands are copying.

Just because there only so many ways to do something, doesn't mean whoever did it first doesn't deserve credit, though.


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## darren (Sep 18, 2013)

So it's not okay to rip off the big guys, but it is okay to rip off a smaller, independent builder? 

The issue isn't about a "coincidental" likeness between two instruments. It's about someone wanting a Vik, then commissioning a copy from a third party (who's making money on the transaction) using a design that neither has the right to use. 

I get really pissed about issues like this, because design is my primary profession, and has been for 20 years. I know first-hand how much time, effort, and energy goes into perfecting a design, and i will not sit idly by and watch people take liberties with intellectual property.

The big problem with intellectual property law is that the only ones getting rich are the lawyers (see Gibson vs. PRS or Apple vs. Samsung). On top of the registration costs (about $1500 per design _per country_ you want it protected in... and it has to be done before the design is published in any form), it costs money to enforce patents and protect them from infringement. It certainly doesn't help when people have this self-entitled "me first" attitude, and support the flagrant copying of original works.


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## glassmoon0fo (Sep 18, 2013)

Don't Darren and vik have years-long waiting lists that they shut down so they can even MEET the huge demand? How is this robbing you of your financial livelihood again?

And @Alain, nobody's pissed that he has an opinion or stated it, just where and how. "Don't air dirty laundry" is very basic PR advice. The only people that even got that FB post were people that already LIKED his product, and even the majority over there disagree with the move. They ARE his potential customers. People that build, already own, or whore his designs around understandably don't like it, but that's how it is in the real world.

As stated earlier, bias is as bias does. Understand, we mostly agree that it sucks the design he worked on and put so much heart into was aped, but get real. Pay the prices to have it legally protected, or lose the good graces of your customers when you complain about it. Seems open and shut to me.

EDIT: to be clear, I'm not trying to start anything here, you guys are in a rough spot and wish the world could see the builders point of view on it, but customers don't consider that when they have a guitar built. I really don't think you'll lose out in the end though, people with the funds and knowledge of your craft will still want the real thing, and there's plenty if people like that to be found here. Everyone an their mom rips off BM and you don't see his guitars not selling  Seriously, you'll be fine.


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## flexkill (Sep 18, 2013)

I don't really have an opinion on the whole "Ripped off design" thing.....but am I right that Vik is talking about Skervesen guitars? If so....what is so 'Cheap" about his guitars.....the ones I have seen are absolutely beautiful instruments.

I mean I wouldn't think that these Skervesen guitars are just some half assed low quality knock offs .....some of the most jaw dropping finishes I have ever seen really....am I off here?


EDIT: I have never played a Skervesen in my life so I could be way off here.


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## bhakan (Sep 18, 2013)

So what are people's opinions on this guitar (just one example)





It is identical to a strat, save a minute change to the headstock. Skervesens Raptor is the same thing to a Blackmachine. Is one OK but the other one not?


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## BlackMastodon (Sep 18, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> I am dumbfounded by the shitty attitudes of lots of dudes who are really just angry inside that they have never played a Vik and never will be able to afford one.


How not to write an argument. 

Darren and AxeHappy raised very valid points, but as Glassmoon0fo said, he already has a huge waitlist of potential customers. Shit, this whole thing isn't really changing my mind about ordering from him in the future; the man makes amazing instruments and I want one some day. I'd pay extra for quality I know is there over saving a few bucks and not having the same quality.

I wouldn't buy a Furd if it cost half the price of a Ford. 

I don't really recall Skervesen using any of his designs either, unless I missed it from when that company first started out. Lately, any of the designs I've seen them used have been pretty original, or at the very least just a super strat shape.

Edit: bhakan hit the nail on the head with that I think. People praise Suhr instruments but no one seems to mind that it is near identical to a Fender strat with a different headstock?


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## darren (Sep 18, 2013)

bhakan said:


> So what are people's opinions on this guitar (just one example)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fender dropped the ball by NOT protecting their intellectual property for 30-40 years. By the time they got around to trying to enforce all the copies, it was too late, and all they could do was protect their headstock shape as a trade mark. 

This is why small builders doing original work are very, VERY protective of our work. Either you defend it against all infringement from the beginning, or you have nothing to back you up later on.


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## Hollowway (Sep 18, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> If you want to copy some old design like Fender or Gibson then go ahead and do it all day long cause its already been done to death, plus those are HUGE companies. Dont expect to copy a design from a young, new, very successful, up and coming, world class, one man show luthier and expect for him to not say something about it on his facebook page.



Seriously? Are you the one that draws the line where a company is big or old enough that you can steal their IP? If it's unethical or wrong, it is so irrespective of how big the company is or how long they've been in business. (Expired IP and copyright legalities are another matter.) I don't think you can split hairs here. 
I can see both sides here, and while I personally side with the idea that you shouldn't rip off other people's designs, I also am not sure how some people are considering some of these designs rip offs. Most of the time this sort of discussion degenerates into an argument of whether the design is ripped off or used as an inspiration. In patent law these things are mapped out, but, for our purposes, I think there should be some description of what constitutes enough of a change to make it a novel design. If Watty says that he designed a HS fresh from the designs of a few different companies, rather than just making a copy of one of them, then, in his mind it is not a rip off. If Vik feels that it is, then in his mind there was not enough of a change. And then we can all line up on either side of the discussion, but this sort of thing will never die down if there is no agreement on what is a design rip off. 

Case in point, Darren designed an offset V shape that someone pointed out looked like an existing model (though I can't remember from who). Darren pointed out that he made no attempt to copy their design. Now if that designer came on here and started saying Darren ripped off the design, what do we do? Darren's one of the last people that would intentionally infringe on other people's IP. But what if his idea of "too similar" is different from the other guy? My guess is Darren would probably want to talk with this other person, and come to some sort of resolution, given that there isn't an existing standard by which these things are measured. And in this particular instance with Vik, I think he should talk with Tyler Robbins (or Skervesen, or whoever else he feels are ripping off his designs) and have a discussion about his feelings about how much of his designs were infringed on. Otherwise it's just 1000 people with 1000 opinions, and this will never get any better.


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## ramses (Sep 18, 2013)

darren said:


> Fender dropped the ball by NOT protecting their intellectual property for 30-40 years. By the time they got around to trying to enforce all the copies, it was too late, and all they could do was protect their headstock shape as a trade mark.
> 
> This is why small builders doing original work are very, VERY protective of our work. Either you defend it against all infringement from the beginning, or you have nothing to back you up later on.



Exactly this.

Although I do agree that he shouldn't have mentioned luthiers that had nothing to do with his design being copied.


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## SilenceIsACrime (Sep 18, 2013)

BlackMastodon said:


> I don't really recall Skervesen using any of his designs either, unless I missed it from when that company first started out. Lately, any of the designs I've seen them used have been pretty original, or at the very least just a super strat shape.



I don't really have any intent to get involved with this, but I was curious about this as well - I've certainly never seen a Skerv that made me go "oh hey, that looks like a Vik...." I assumed he was remarking at them having a BM-style guitar but after seeing one of the comments he left on that status it implies he feels personally slighted by them. Anyone have anything to illuminate in this regard?


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## bhakan (Sep 18, 2013)

darren said:


> Fender dropped the ball by NOT protecting their intellectual property for 30-40 years. By the time they got around to trying to enforce all the copies, it was too late, and all they could do was protect their headstock shape as a trade mark.
> 
> This is why small builders doing original work are very, VERY protective of our work. Either you defend it against all infringement from the beginning, or you have nothing to back you up later on.


But do you feel Suhr are unethically copying Fender? I understand there is nothing Fender can do at this point, but the legal protection or lack there of shouldn't matter for if copying another lutheir's work is wrong or not. I completely understand where you're coming from, but the vast majority of guitars on the market are ripoffs of other designs. If what Skervesen are doing is wrong, then so is what pretty much every major guitar company does.


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## leonardo7 (Sep 18, 2013)

Hollowway said:


> Seriously? Are you the one that draws the line where a company is big or old enough that you can steal their IP? If it's unethical or wrong, it is so irrespective of how big the company is or how long they've been in business. (Expired IP and copyright legalities are another matter.) I don't think you can split hairs here.



I agree that it doesnt matter if the company is large or small etc. I just meant that it hurts the little guy more. Plus your more likely to get caught by the little guy maybe.



Hollowway said:


> My guess is Darren would probably want to talk with this other person, and come to some sort of resolution, given that there isn't an existing standard by which these things are measured. And in this particular instance with Vik, I think he should talk with Tyler Robbins (or Skervesen, or whoever else he feels are ripping off his designs) and have a discussion about his feelings about how much of his designs were infringed on. Otherwise it's just 1000 people with 1000 opinions, and this will never get any better.



I think it should also be the other way around, Darren shouldnt have to go talk to them after the fact. They should talk to Darren before the fact. Also, discussing in private sends no message to other companies/luthiers who might copy. I think it was actually smart of him to say something. I don't think he planned it that way but rather just a natural way for him to deal with it maybe.


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## darren (Sep 18, 2013)

bhakan said:


> But do you feel Suhr are unethically copying Fender? I understand there is nothing Fender can do at this point, but the legal protection or lack there of shouldn't matter for if copying another lutheir's work is wrong or not.



That's a really good question, and a tough one to answer. 

Bear with me here, because i think there's a lot of historical context that needs to be examined in order to formulate a proper response... it's not as clearly cut-and-dried. The Strat is an interesting and unusual case, so it's kind of hard to make an apples-to-apples comparison to what's happening with smaller luthiers today. 

Both Fender and Gibson underwent numerous ownership changes and management upheavals back in the late 1960s and through the 1970s. Their product lines were in shambles, design was largely nonexistent and manufacturing quality was less than stellar. It seems that nobody at either company really cared. This gave rise to the Japanese copies in the late '70s, which were arguably BETTER instruments than the originals. And thus the aftermarket/boutique Strat market was born. By the time Fender got on top of it, the cat was WELL out of the bag.

Has it hurt Fender? Absolutely. Should they have protected their designs, even through their numerous transition periods? Without a doubt. (What's even more odd in this case is that John Suhr was a master builder in Fender's Custom Shop for a few years in the '90s.)

But for boutique builders like Anderson, Suhr, Grosh, etc., their motivation wasn't to make a _cheaper_ Strat. It was to make a _BETTER_ Strat (or Tele) than what you could get from Fender. And companies like Schecter and Tom Anderson (who worked for Schecter) were the places players went when they wanted a custom Strat-style instrument, because Fender didn't have a custom shop yet. Many of the custom shops &#8211; including Charvel and Jackson &#8211; started in the parts/repair/customization business before they started making fully built custom guitars.

The waters are muddied even further by the fact that George Fullerton and Leo Fender started up another company after Fender, using more or less the same designs. I think that may have also signalled to the industry that the Strat and Tele were pretty much fair game at that point.

But it's also worth noting that the number of direct Strat and Tele copies through the 1950s and 1960s was few to none. Guitar companies were falling over themselves _trying to be innovative_ and come up with the NEXT Strat or Tele. It wasn't until Fender stumbled much later on that the copies started turning up.

So the Strat and Tele are unique cases, whereby copies came into being only after decades of influence in the marketplace, and the company producing them seemed no longer interested in putting out a quality product. I can't really fault John Suhr or any of the other "boutique Strat" builders for doing what they do, because the groundwork was laid decades before their companies even came into existence. 

Hypothetically speaking, if 20 years down the road, i've sold Decibel and the new owners are putting out crap product, i'd probably be supportive of boutique builders taking my design and restoring it to its former glory. 

But until then,


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## Necris (Sep 18, 2013)

I support Vik 100% in his defense of his designs.


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## DVRP (Sep 18, 2013)

I just find it really funny when there's myriads of knock offs for the bigger brands but when there's a "knock off" of a guitar company the vast majority of people don't even know about it causes a stir like this. 

And for you to just push aside the fender/gibson argument because " they dropped the ball by NOT protecting their intellectual property" makes it so much easier for anyone to push aside your argument for the same reasons.

Edit, @darren, I just read your above post too, I have mad respect for you, Im not trying to poke a bear or anything 

I just think with the age of the consumer being what it is, there is always going to be someone making a copy, so keeping that in mind I think what Ola does is a fantastic step in the right direction towards ending shitty copies of instruments being made *without the knowledge of the original designer*. More just need to adopt this me thinks.


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## darren (Sep 18, 2013)

DVRP said:


> And for you to just push aside the fender/gibson argument because " they dropped the ball by NOT protecting their intellectual property" makes it so much easier for anyone to push aside your argument for the same reasons.



Not quite sure what you're saying here. 

Small builders like Vik and myself ARE defending our intellectual property to the extent that we can. Just because we don't have armies of lawyers on retainer (would you REALLY like to see how expensive our guitars can get?) doesn't mean we aren't protecting our investments.



> I just think with the age of the consumer being what it is, there is always going to be someone making a copy, so keeping that in mind I think what Ola does is a fantastic step in the right direction towards ending shitty copies of instruments being made *without the knowledge of the original designer*. More just need to adopt this me thinks.



Keep in mind that Ola has changed his licensing in the last couple of months, and now allows licenses for personal self-build projects only.

Design Licensing & Permissions | Strandberg Guitarworks

It's important to understand that for me, _design_ is my livelihood. _Design_ is what makes Decibel Guitars unique and distinctive in the marketplace. It is what i do. It is intrinsically interwoven into the Decibel brand. It is the ONE thing that is most valuable to me and my company. Without it, i would be one of hundreds (or thousands) of builders making copies of other stuff out there. So when people think it's alright _to steal what i have worked so very hard to create_, i take it VERY seriously.

And i will fight for the protection of my colleagues' creative output with the same ferocity.


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## Winspear (Sep 18, 2013)

Some people are easily butthurt 

(No, I'm not talking about ViK)


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## rainbowbrite (Sep 18, 2013)

darren said:


> That's a really good question, and a tough one to answer.
> 
> Bear with me here, because i think there's a lot of historical context that needs to be examined in order to formulate a proper response... it's not as clearly cut-and-dried. The Strat is an interesting and unusual case, so it's kind of hard to make an apples-to-apples comparison to what's happening with smaller luthiers today.
> 
> ...



The assumption is that people who are building "knockoffs" of Blackmachines are building inferior guitars.


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## darren (Sep 18, 2013)

The argument people are making is that they want a "designer" guitar faster and cheaper, not that they aren't happy with the build quality of the original. Two totally different arguments.


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## asfeir (Sep 18, 2013)

The most important point Vik was trying to make with his statement is that he is annoyed that these builders use the designs of others to gain fame. 
Robbins, Skervesen are undoubtedly very good luthiers but when you think about the time and effort invested by vik and doug to create the designs that made them famous, you can't but understand that they will be pissed when a newcomer is taking their designs, rebranding them and making a name out of them.
So no he didn't lose his mind, he is venting his frustration and has the right to do so.


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## Winspear (Sep 18, 2013)

asfeir said:


> The most important point Vik was trying to make with his statement is that he is annoyed that these builders use the designs of others to gain fame.
> Robbins, Skervesen are undoubtedly very good luthiers but when you think about the time and effort invested by vik and doug to create the designs that made them famous, you can't but understand that they will be pissed when a newcomer is taking their designs, rebranding them and making a name out of them.
> So no he didn't lose his mind, he is venting his frustration and has the right to do so.



Indeed. I don't think he should have named names but damn some people reactions are OTT.


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## darren (Sep 18, 2013)

Well, initially, he DIDN'T name names. His original post was professionally vague. It's only after the shitstorm exploded that he divulged details, and lumped in a few other builders with his argument.


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## darren (Sep 18, 2013)

glassmoon0fo said:


> You and Vik EXPECT others to respect and not copy your designs.



Is that really too much to ask?


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## Gunnar (Sep 18, 2013)

How many Les Paul, V and Strat ripoffs can you find out there? Gimme a break. If people stop buying Vik guitars and start buying the other brands instead than I guess Viks weren't "that" great anyway. If his guitars are quality, which i'm sure they are, they will continue to sell. They are definitely beautiful.


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## DVRP (Sep 18, 2013)

What defines a copy? Is it just mere likeness? Or is it everything down to the exact spec the same? Since there's a possibility someone who's never seen nor heard of a Decibel guitar could come up with a design that is very close to that of your designs; would that be stolen design when it's technically intellectual property, or would it not be? 

Does it only become a problem for the people who hold intellectual property when others try and use it for profit? Or get more recognition then the originator?


Edit: Careful Vik sends Hitmen lolol


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## leonardo7 (Sep 18, 2013)

Gunnar said:


> How many Les Paul, V and Strat ripoffs can you find out there? Gimme a break. If people stop buying Vik guitars and start buying the other brands instead than I guess Viks weren't "that" great anyway. If his guitars are quality, which i'm sure they are, they will continue to sell. They are definitely beautiful.



Todays generation of progressive metal players know whats up. Nolly has a sig, Misha has one on order, so does Tosin and even Fredrik Thordendal of Meshuggah, plus many others Im forgetting too like Keith Merrow etc. Plus the guys who can actually afford a Vik have most likely also played other top of the line high end guitars. These same guys are talking about how amazing Vik's are. There is no question to it. He has cemented himself. They are amazing guitars. Beyond amazing.


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## Gunnar (Sep 18, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> Todays generation of progressive metal players know whats up. Nolly has a sig, Misha has one on order, so does Tosin and even Fredrik Thordendal of Meshuggah, plus many others Im forgetting too like Keith Merrow etc. Plus the guys who can actually afford a Vik have most likely also played other top of the line high end guitars. These same guys are talking about how amazing Vik's are. There is no question to it. He has cemented himself. They are amazing guitars. Beyond amazing.



Exactly, he shouldn't be too concerned.


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## darren (Sep 18, 2013)

A design can infringe upon (or in a legal context, be _seen_ as infringing upon) an existing work without being "stolen", but that's not the issue at hand in this case. 

Intellectual property rights are seldom about "recognition". They exist primarily to ensure that designers, creators, artists and inventors get fairly compensated for their hard work and creativity, through having exclusive rights to manufacture, sell or license their creation. 

Copying someone's original work without permission bypasses those rights, thereby creating lost income potential for the originator.


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## that short guy (Sep 18, 2013)

Before there is any butthurt from either side this is simply my opinion and that alone

but first off, I don't think he did anything wrong for naming names. He could've gone as far as posting side by side comparisons of what he's claiming are copies and I'd be cool with it. If he's wrong he'll look like a dumb ass but if he's right no one really has shit they can argue about and not look like an idiot.

next is the it's just bad PR part. I don't know about you but I don't buy my guitars because of they're companies PR department, I buy for build quality and playability that meet my needs. And my personal opinion is it gives him some brownie points in my book for fighting for what he believes in

but as far as the actual copying goes I have two questions

did the people that ordered the copies first try to order from VIK and were told that what they wanted couldn't be done, or that VIK wasn't taking orders at that time?

and were the copies never intended to be copies but a better version of an already existing VIK model (kinda like darren mentioned earlier)

if the answer to those are yes then I personally don't have a problem with it, but I will say that the companies that did the copies should've had some professional courtesy and dropped VIK a line and said hey we just took this order in that's pretty much a copy of yours, here's the differences that we can tell. making it known that they're not trying to take credit for his work.

I'd love to hear what you guys have to say though because I'm tired as hell in Afghanistan and can't go to sleep yet. 

-Wes


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## Robby the Robot (Sep 18, 2013)

Look. I agree with Vik in the point of his designs being copied and being upset. I get that, I would be too. I've actually seen happen (though very different fields, long story) in person. I don't think it was a wise idea to air out his frustrations with other builders on social media.


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## DVRP (Sep 18, 2013)

darren said:


> A design can infringe upon (or in a legal context, be _seen_ as infringing upon) an existing work without being "stolen", but that's not the issue at hand in this case.
> 
> Intellectual property rights are seldom about "recognition". They exist primarily to ensure that designers, creators, artists and inventors get fairly compensated for their hard work and creativity, through having exclusive rights to manufacture, sell or license their creation.
> 
> Copying someone's original work without permission bypasses those rights, thereby creating lost income potential for the originator.



Ok but someone did bring up the point about the rate most custom luthiers turn out instruments. I don't see how there's any lost income considering your making the superior product, and you already have a wait list that's how ever long. Having a wait list means you know how much income you can possibly bring in, no? 

Which tells me it is about recognition, at least in the case of Vik. He's even said it with the recent update. "I don't have respect to someone who stole other peoples' creations/ideas to make a name for himself".


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## Dan (Sep 18, 2013)

darren said:


> That's a really good question, and a tough one to answer.
> 
> So the Strat and Tele are unique cases, whereby copies came into being only after decades of influence in the marketplace, and the company producing them seemed no longer interested in putting out a quality product. I can't really fault John Suhr or any of the other "boutique Strat" builders for doing what they do, because the groundwork was laid decades before their companies even came into existence.



So what about the Les Paul, the Flying V, The RR V, the Jaguar, the PRS and the Kelly shapes? They have all been copied and altered by the big companies as well as independent luthiers over the years. Companies are still doing it today, i mean look at the RGD shape, we all commented on how similar it was to EBMM's JP body shape upon release. 

Without innovation from other companies copying and modifying designs, giving the marketplace an alternative where would we be? I'm not condoning exact replication of instruments. However i believe that without innovation on new and fresh designs they will never be refined and achieve their potential. If you want a VIK guitar then save up, wait however long and purchase one, if there's that demand there and he cant handle it grow his business, build on his success and cater for the populous. 

so my  is Don't copy. Innovate. If someone complains about that they are a fool.


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## darren (Sep 18, 2013)

DVRP said:


> Ok but someone did bring up the point about the rate most custom luthiers turn out instruments. I don't see how there's any lost income considering your making the superior product, and you already have a wait list that's how ever long. Having a wait list means you know how much income you can possibly bring in, no?



A company's rate of output or wait list has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING on the rights of others to steal their design. That is without a doubt the most ridiculous argument I've read on this subject.


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## DVRP (Sep 18, 2013)

darren said:


> A company's rate of output or wait list has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING on the rights of others to steal their design. That is without a doubt the most ridiculous argument I've read on this subject.



That's not what I meant  LOL I'm done in this thread I think. These niche markets, passionate people doe.


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## Thrashmanzac (Sep 18, 2013)

Anyone that supports stealing/copying a luithers ideas without permission, I wonder how you would react if a song/book/film/artwork that you spent years developing was copied and used by someone else for their own profit?


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## darren (Sep 18, 2013)

There is lost income potential, because _it is the designer's right_ to decide how to bring his or her creation to market, whether it be through custom, built-to-order craftsmanship, volume manufacturing or licensing the design. 

The designer makes that decision, not the consumer, and certainly not his competitors.

I can't believe any of this actually needs explanation.


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## Kaickul (Sep 18, 2013)

What are they thinking? Shouldn't have posted it in their Facebook page.


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## elq (Sep 18, 2013)

This is going to muddy the waters a bit, but I first heard of Vik when someone posted a thread to the Suhr forums, about an absolute clone (even logo, if I remember correctly) of a limited edition Suhr modern.

Suhr :: View topic - Suhr Modern FAKE

I agree with Darren that copying designs is very poor form... even if it seems to be a very common way for luthiers growing their skills to showcase their work.


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## Malkav (Sep 18, 2013)

Well I was wondering when this would show up on these forums, and like everybody else I'm gonna share my thoughts on this just because:

1) I think Vik's work is fantastic, he makes stunning instruments that are truly eye catching, that's where my interest ends though, aesthetically his designs may be very original but they don't really bring anything new to the table like say .Strandberg* or Toone do in terms of the actual function of the guitar.

2) Vik started out building exact copies of main stream brands like Fender, Gibson and Ibanez under the name Kuletski guitars, I think it's massively hippocritical of him to suddenly act like it's so awful someone is doing the same to him. Sure you can argue that those companies are huge and it wouldn't have hurt them, but Vik's wait list is full for the next century or something ridiculous so it's obviously not hurting him either. Now if you want to go with the Fender style argument that justifies Vik ripping those designs because Fender dropped the ball on QC etc fair enough, but when he was still doing the Kuletski thing he ripped Ibanez and Ibanez did not drop the ....ing ball, what's the justification for making a Jem with his name on it?

EDIT: see ELQ's post - was Suhr not producing quality? Does Suhr not offer you a choice of woods etc?

3) He calls out Skervesen, they've never done anything close to a VIK, sure the Raptor looks like a BlackMachine but BlackMachines are also nothing that "original" either. Woop a thin bodied RG with a mangled Parker headstock reversed, he didn't exactly reinvent the wheel here...

4) He calls out Black Water, and seeing as the body shapes are literally nothing similar to his it must be over the headstock, which honestly is just a modified super strat headstock style with a split in the woods, when I saw the Black Water headstock I did not jump to the Vik copy conclusion because in many respects Vik's headstock design isn't really super unique among 6 in line designs, and the split wood thing has been done by tons of other companies before him.

5) He doesn't call out Robbins guitars, which is funny cause in that particular case yeah they totally straight up ripped him...

6) I will never own nor play a Vik but I'm not angry inside because of that  as though I like the work they do, I could never afford one, and owning a master built custom guitar isn't going to make me a better player so who cares? but for the same token I could never afford a Skervesen or any of the other brands mentioned here at all really, but again you hit a point of diminishing returns where paying 6x the price of a production instruments is not getting you 6x the guitar...  Also in my line of work when you rock up to an audition they choose the guy who plays the best, not the guy with the fanciest looking guitar 

EDIT: 

7) Rookie mistake is rookie... just a retarded PR move, especially when you've literally been guilty of the same thing.


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## toiletstand (Sep 18, 2013)

Everyone keeps saying he should be flattered and okay with people stealing his designs but he himself has no right to call them out on it?


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## hairychris (Sep 18, 2013)

Totally get Vik's frustration, naming names probably wasn't the best thing to do (or at least, without a side-by-side image of an offending instrument!).

Small brands like Vik, Blackmachine, etc, have very little capital except their IP, and they usually don't have the finances to be able to defend it. It still ....s me off when I see Copymachines with Doug's headstock design. It took him years to get that right... and the fact that something is out there does not mean that it's public domain.

As for whether it harms the brand... that's not really the point - at this level it's a *RESPECT* issue: the other luthiers should at least ask if they can use design features.


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## hairychris (Sep 18, 2013)

Malkav said:


> 3) He calls out Skervesen, they've never done anything close to a VIK, sure the Raptor looks like a BlackMachine but BlackMachines are also nothing that "original" either. Woop a thin bodied RG with a mangled Parker headstock reversed, he didn't exactly reinvent the wheel here...



Haha, OK then, I can rip any music that you make off and sell it on as my own. I mean, there are only 12 notes in a scale amirite, and as I'm in London no-one will ever get to see your band play.



And as for the headstock - no, he didn't actually rip Parker off (I can't be arsed to go into the whole story), and the early instruments with that design were all regular way up.


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## Malkav (Sep 18, 2013)

hairychris said:


> Haha, OK then, I can rip any music that you make off and sell it on as my own. I mean, there are only 12 notes in a scale amirite, and as I'm in London no-one will ever get to see your band play.


 
This point keeps popping up in this thread but it's a pretty illogical one to make, we're not dealing with the same medium here.

Blackmachines are RG styled super strat bodies with a whacky headstock, Skervesen Raptors are RG styled super strat bodies with their own whacky headstock. Sure Doug can claim the rights to his own headstock design, but Skervesen aren't copying it, and the headstock design is about the only thing you can really call original with BlackMachines, if BlackMachines had a totally unique body shape that was getting copied then fair enough that's not cool, but they don't...

So to bring it back to your above example essentially we could call Doug band X, Ibanez band Y, and Skervesen band Z. Now band Y had an awesome riff, band X took that riff and changed a few notes at the end to make it their riff but the bulk of it was still pretty obviously band Y's, then along comes band Z and they do the same thing and then change the notes that band X had changed, but the bulk of it is still band Y's, that's basically what's going down here...

In the music world band Y could have sued the shit out of both X and Z, in the music instrument world Ibanez wouldn't bother, partially because neither really take business away from them and partially because it's just a super strat at the the end of the day...


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## Solodini (Sep 18, 2013)

There's been mention of people copying each other's music. Well there's a system in place for bands to cover each other's music and give recognition to the songwriter. There are tribute bands and general covers bands. There are schemes like the Performing Rights Society which people/bands can sign up to and receive royalties for their work being used. Maybe there should be something similar put in place for guitar designs?


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## Lorcan Ward (Sep 18, 2013)

This was all over my facebook feed this morning and now its spread to my favorite guitar forum, great!

I expect people on facebook to respond by slamming their fists into their keyboards but to see so many seasoned guitar players here spewing ill-thought out and aggressive replies at each other is shocking. 

Thats enough internet for a while.


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## hairychris (Sep 18, 2013)

Malkav said:


> This point keeps popping up in this thread but it's a pretty illogical one to make, we're not dealing with the same medium here.
> 
> Blackmachines are RG styled super strat bodies with a whacky headstock, Skervesen Raptors are RG styled super strat bodies with their own whacky headstock. Sure Doug can claim the rights to his own headstock design, but Skervesen aren't copying it, and the headstock design is about the only thing you can really call original with BlackMachines, if BlackMachines had a totally unique body shape that was getting copied then fair enough that's not cool, but they don't...
> 
> ...



*sigh*

Skervyy did a copy earlier on, but yes, they use their own headstocks. Plenty of others don't and direct rip headstock & body style.

But it's a wacky headstock and thin body that _hedesigned_. The body is a flattened superstrat (with specific curves, designed), the headstock on them is different for 6/7/8 because of proportions, again, which is an individual feature. Seriously, you try to design a nice headstock that works. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to make it look right?

Do you work in, or make money from, any creative work? I have to ask.

In the music world there would be absolutely .... all that you could do if I decided to rip you off - *unless you have the money to enforce your rights by lawyering up internationally*. Vik & Blackmachine may be able to do this domestically but this is still very expensive for a small business - Doug runs BM out of his ....ing house, ffs.

Your last paragraph, possibly not meaning to, demonstrates this: enforcement, and ability of owner to do so. If another manufacturer started churning out guitars with Ibby's signature headstock then they'd get a "cease & desist" letter sharpish. Also Ibby are a market leader with the legal team to be able to do this.

Can you see the problems here? The medium is different, yes, but that is not the point. It's the ownership of ideas. Your arrangement of notes is an idea, Vik's design of a guitar is an idea.

FWIW I am not an IP nazi. It's a very muddy world, and the major IP owners (film studios, record labels, etc) make it very difficult to have a sensible conversation about it.

Mainly, though, as I see it:

1) It's rude to copy/lift signature features
2) It's *really ....ing rude* to copy/lift signature features
3) All the legal bollocks comes after that in my book


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## glassmoon0fo (Sep 18, 2013)

"All the legal bollocks" is the only stuff that's enforceable, otherwise you're just throwing fits over whether you agree or not. It's open and shut, guys.

@darren, you keep talking about who has rights, but not in a legal sense. Does someone have the moral upper hand making money off of someone else's design? Hell no. Do they have the legal right when someone's work is unprotected? Yup. Are they most likely gonna go THAT direction, choosing easy money over whether or not to butthurt someone they don't know? Almost every time. People sucking isn't new, dude. And IMO, asking someone to respect your wishes and not copy a design isn't too much to ask, but it is completely irrational to expect everyone to adhere to your wishes. Completely. That's what that legal protection is for, whether the builder can afford it or not is a beef for another court.

Boils down to this guys:

Builders: "I worked really hard on this design, put my heart and soul into its creation and really feel I've achieved a gorgeous new aesthetic all my own flavor. Unfortunately I don't have the overhead to legally protect it, so do you think you (every other guitar builder on the planet) could find it in your heart to not copy me? Pretty please? ...what? You're doin it anyway?! WELL .... YOU THEN!" Don't mince words or get lost in detail, I'm pretty sure that's what this is boiling down to. I side with the little guys here, I really do, but I haven't seen anyone directly refute this point yet and really just think it'd best be left alone if they have to say in defense is what people should and shouldn't be doing from a moral standpoint. That's a losing battle.


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## capoeiraesp (Sep 18, 2013)

I share mixed opinions on this issue so I'm just gonna add these. 

Lag Guitars - pre duality headstock I believe. 
Stephan Forte Signature Model | Lag Guitars Australia






Hmm.... The philosophy doesn't quite match what I'm seeing here. 
ViK Guitars - Order/Buy





http://web.archive.org/web/20100518162030/http://vikguitars.com/forum/index.php?topic=60.0




Another copy. 

Take a look at my avatar! I'm such an asshole.


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## Slaeyer (Sep 18, 2013)

capoeiraesp said:


> Lag Guitars - pre duality headstock I believe.
> Stephan Forte Signature Model | Lag Guitars Australia



I was thinking exactly the same...


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## capoeiraesp (Sep 18, 2013)

And then there was this too. 
Master Kuletski Built


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## Pikka Bird (Sep 18, 2013)

I also understand his frustration in this matter, but at the same time, he _did_ make a name for himself by building copies. Surely it's going to hurt a one-man operation's pride more than that of a multi-tiered megacorporation, but in principle I can't see how the ripoff is any less of a ripoff just because it draws "inspiration" from one of the big boys.

That being said, I'd personally never buy or build a _straight_ rip of any guitar shape that I knew to be made by a one-man outfit, but on the other side I feel alright copying the outlines of a Telecaster body and ESP headstock for my shredder Tele, and I'll probably end up building something very similar to Gibson's LP some time in the future, with a few personal flourishes. So I guess I've fallen victim to a certain bit of hipocrisy too. 

@capoeiraesp: Good finds.  I saw the dual coloured headstock concept on Yamaha guitars quite a few years before I even heard of any custom builder.


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## Malkav (Sep 18, 2013)

hairychris said:


> Skervyy did a copy earlier on, but yes, they use their own headstocks. Plenty of others don't and direct rip headstock & body style.


 
I did see that original one and I agree that that's not something that one should do, but they have since changed that.



> But it's a wacky headstock and thin body that _hedesigned_. The body is a flattened superstrat (with specific curves, designed), the headstock on them is different for 6/7/8 because of proportions, again, which is an individual feature. Seriously, you try to design a nice headstock that works. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to make it look right?


 
Headstock designs are painful, and I agree that it's really hard to make one that is unique and functional, but I look at this the same way the law would which was pretty much setup by the Gibson vs PRS and Fender vs the world way where unfortunately BlackMachine's design is not unique enough as just a body that it would stand up in court.



> Do you work in, or make money from, any creative work? I have to ask.


 
At this point no, that will be changing in the next few months. I do session work, play in cover bands, and theater productions.



> In the music world there would be absolutely .... all that you could do if I decided to rip you off - *unless you have the money to enforce your rights by lawyering up internationally*. Vik & Blackmachine may be able to do this domestically but this is still very expensive for a small business - Doug runs BM out of his ....ing house, ffs.
> 
> Can you see the problems here? The medium is different, yes, but that is not the point. It's the ownership of ideas. Your arrangement of notes is an idea, Vik's design of a guitar is an idea.


 
I do see your point here, and you are right that there isn't much that can be done unless one was willing to fork out for lawyers etc ultimately this boils down to opinion, and I respect that to you BlackMachine and Vik are unique entities, but in my opinion BlackMachine aren't unique enough to take legal recourse if we're just talking about body shape (though I think it would be interesting to line up a Skervesen on a BlackMachine to see how close their bodies really are), and though I completely think Vik's work is unique as all hell I find it really annoying that he started off ripping off not only big brands, but also smaller custom shops like Suhr but is coming across as a victim in his posts. You can't take a moral high ground after already committing the same act. This is where my issue with his outcry is sitting. If it were a luthier like Darren from Decibel getting ripped then fair enough he has in my mind justification for feeling this way.



> FWIW I am not an IP nazi. It's a very muddy world, and the major IP owners (film studios, record labels, etc) make it very difficult to have a sensible conversation about it.
> 
> Mainly, though, as I see it:
> 
> ...


 
I don't think you're being an IP nazi, we're having a discussion about our interpretations of a scenario relating to something we're passionate about, and I hope that you don't feel any animosity in my posts as in no way am I trying to offend you or anybody else, these are just my opinions regarding the matter.

in response to your points:

I agree, but at the same time I don't feel that BlackMachines for instance are unique enough for their features to be considered signature, and I don't feel Vik has much recourse as he is guilty of this exact infringement. If it were a luthier who had never been guilty of making copies then I'd feel they have every right to be offended.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 18, 2013)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Vik make shameless Gibson and other "mainstream" copies until fairly recently? 

Not saying that means everyone has the right to copy everyone else, but it just seems a little hypocritical. 

Though, I think everyone has read what I feel towards up and coming builders jumping on the bandwagon of certain designs.


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## RickSchneider (Sep 18, 2013)

Someone called ViK out on their previous use of other builders designs, to which ViK responded saying:

"It's a good point. I indeed made quite a few of classic design guitars back in the day - LPs. teles, strats, etc. But you all got to know me for Duality, Caprice, etc. See the difference?"

Good dodge of the hypocrisy, and then only validates him on the builders that got off the ground stealing designs and then decided to stick to using unoriginal designs. Plenty of builders start out building a few BM's and then diverge into their own market once they have a fanbase - like what Skervesen. Essentially they did what he admitted to doing in that quote, they begun with BM copies and got a name for good luthiery, and have now expanded with the Lizard/4AP/Shoggie models and have a really reputable name...

I don't get why builders need to put this in the public eye rather than just discuss it with each other - I highly doubt it is any one persons intent to screw or piss off someone else.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 18, 2013)

Eh, Vik is kind of a dick. Does no one else remember when he first signed up here? 

Just putting things in context.


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## hairychris (Sep 18, 2013)

It's cool, Malkav!

As a side-issue, do you remember when Gibson went after PRS in the early 00s for building a singlecut? A long running court case that ended with PRS being able to build the SC because it was different enough.

Also why you see direct copies of Gibson/Fender being made in Japan for the internal market but not sold abroad? Japanese copyright vs international copyright law, basically.

Believe me, Gibson take/took their IP (including headstock design) very seriously. I'm not sure what their stance is on small builders but they are definitely very hard on larger commercial concerns. They are a large enough corporate entity to be able to do this aggressively. Will they ever cease/desist a small builder? Probably only when volume becomes high enough, or builds are being traded as originals.

Small builders/companies/bands/artists do not have the luxury that Gibson has in protecting their IP. They also don't have the luxury of their design of instrument being seen as a personification of the instrument as a whole. So, as a small builder, you should really not be pissing in your own pond, so to speak.

Now, if Doug or Vik (say) would license designs then a commercial arrangement could be made. I know for certain that Doug won't have his name attached to anything that he can't get his hands on so we're left with a situation!


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## Adam Of Angels (Sep 18, 2013)

I just want to ask a random question that is somewhat relavant here: what came first, the Parker Fly or the Blackmachine B-series?


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## hairychris (Sep 18, 2013)

Parker. But the Parker headstock is fugly...


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## Adam Of Angels (Sep 18, 2013)

I think most of these guys are copying someone else's ideas, but really, what's important is how they sound and play - those qualities speak for their selves, and Vik should not feel threatened in any way if the hype is all true (I haven't had the chance to try one yet).


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## Lorcan Ward (Sep 18, 2013)

hairychris said:


> Parker. But the Parker headstock is fugly...



Not to mention the Blackmachine headstock was based off another guitar and not Parkers.


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## darren (Sep 18, 2013)

I've been a fool all these years _working_ for a living. I could have been burglarizing unlocked houses and stealing unlocked cars. If they don't protect themselves, it's justified, right?


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## Church2224 (Sep 18, 2013)

darren said:


> I've been a fool all these years _working_ for a living. I could have been burglarizing unlocked houses and stealing unlocked cars. If they don't protect themselves, it's justified, right?



That is a completely different argument and quite frankly is very condescending and insulting to those who disagree with you.


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## Church2224 (Sep 18, 2013)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Eh, Vik is kind of a dick. Does no one else remember when he first signed up here?
> 
> Just putting things in context.



I honestly think this is the case with many of these small lutheirs. They get arrogant and eventually they fade out of relevance. How many have done this in the past few years alone?


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## Church2224 (Sep 18, 2013)

darren said:


> Fender dropped the ball by NOT protecting their intellectual property for 30-40 years. By the time they got around to trying to enforce all the copies, it was too late, and all they could do was protect their headstock shape as a trade mark.
> 
> This is why small builders doing original work are very, VERY protective of our work. Either you defend it against all infringement from the beginning, or you have nothing to back you up later on.



And Fender today owns 52% of the guitar market, last time I checked. Even then, how many great guitars would we have missed out on and how many of the companies we worship today would not have come into existence?

Also, now discovering Vik Copied Suhr, this is completely hypocritical of him to be doing this. Any respect I had for him is gone completely.


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## acrcmb (Sep 18, 2013)

Very unprofessional especially since he's at the higher end of the market, if someone is going part with 6k of there cash they wan't to think it's getting by a really professional company and when they see him getting involved in petty facebook arguments it's bound to put them off, also I'm not sure how the other companies relate to him but from what I can make out they're not even direct competetors because they are in totally different price brackets and doesn't this guy constantly have work anyway? Sure you can be mad about someone stealing your designs in general but I think it gets ridiculous when it comes to guitars because of the narrow scope of variation, every body has to have the same basic shape so that small scope has been explored extensively by now, I'm sure for each one of his "unique" designs you could find an older guitar with the same featues it's not like he invented the whole design he just did subtle things that's not really a unique design and certainly doesn't warrant that response, he's just negatively impacted his business more than the copycats ever could.


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## glassmoon0fo (Sep 18, 2013)

^....in aye, that's really all that most of us are saying and still the hole keeps getting dug deeper. I hate the situation, but Vik belittled everyone trying to help him save face earlier so he can eat a dick. I can honestly say in a few short hours I've lost all interest in his company, because no matter how good your guitars are, I won't feel good playing something made by someone with the kind of character he's displayed. Maybe I'll pick up a Skervy copy, they know how to act.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 18, 2013)

darren said:


> Fender dropped the ball by NOT protecting their intellectual property for 30-40 years. By the time they got around to trying to enforce all the copies, it was too late, and all they could do was protect their headstock shape as a trade mark.
> 
> This is why small builders doing original work are very, VERY protective of our work. Either you defend it against all infringement from the beginning, or you have nothing to back you up later on.



Show me one single builder that has gone belly up because of undefended IP. Show me one who faced financial hardship from it. 

The fact is, if a builder does something so universally lauded, they're going to be plenty busy and successful as long as they don't implode. 

I've seen the reverse. Look at Novax and fanned frets. Look at the guys who cause tussles over things as silly as drawings and concepts related to their work.......oh. 

I'm not saying that builders with unique concepts shouldn't protect their IP. That's their right. What I feel causes friction is the assumption that everything is an affront to the builder and that every copy made would have been a for sure sale. 

You've already made up your mind on this issue. The barrage of reports over some kid making a drawing shows how firmly you stand and where.


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## Andromalia (Sep 18, 2013)

I perfectly understand the small luthier's desire to protect their designs and secure their business, but please don't put this on moral grounds. 
Because, well, here's a Vik duality's headstock.




Oh, wait.
I can attest Lag was already using this in the 90es btw.

Edit; should have read last page first, being ninjaed by a margin of days is....embarrassing


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## Dan (Sep 18, 2013)

Ohh Max


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## MetalDaze (Sep 18, 2013)

All of these arguments are one of the main reasons Steve Jobs hated Bill Gates.


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## kylendm (Sep 18, 2013)

Well in defense to Tyler (Robbins Custom Guitars) it's not like he is marketing the shape as his own. He did a custom build because the customer requested it. He's already shown me five or six shape ideas of his own design and has told me that he doesn't want to do copies. I think Vik is being ridiculous especially considering not everything he's done was 100% his own design.

And to anyone curious, that guitar played awesome!


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## canuck brian (Sep 18, 2013)

You guys remember when some little punk decided to take the instrumental of Icarus Lives (i think) and put deathcore vocals over it? Ya know, before Periphery got huge?

I'm surprised the kid wasn't drawn and quartered considering the response. I do believe forums everywhere erupted in anger and a cease and desist was issued. 

Going with the same logic, i could just take any non-copyrighted instrumental song out there (that would be about 90% of people who do music at home), put my own vocals on it, call it mine and that's totally ok.


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## VBCheeseGrater (Sep 18, 2013)

darren said:


> You can't make the argument that "i'm not taking business away from the original creator, because i was never going to buy their product (at the price they're asking) anyway." That just doesn't fly. Cheap copies dilute the brand and lower the value of the original. Ask any art collector who's seen forgeries of original works they own.



Regardless of any other part of the debate, I 100% agree with this. Folks use this excuse to pirate software, music, and all other forms of arts and crafts. It's just a bullshit excuse that brats make to justify ripping someone off.


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## Watty (Sep 18, 2013)

Looks like I missed my chance to really head off any comments directed at Tyler or myself bring that he built the "copy" for me (provided that there were any, didn't read all 5 pages). All else aside, Tyler showed me how Vik chose to handle it initially and I was appalled at how unprofessional he was. He could have easily resolved the situation privately when Tyler politely replied to his initial contact, but he wanted to air the laundry publicly.

Irrespective of copy building, gentleman's patents, and copyright infringement, Vik shot himself in the foot for no good reason.


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## Watty (Sep 18, 2013)

I'll try to address certain of my points I raised on his FB page when I do the NGD. I'll have the guitar in hand later today.


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## ElRay (Sep 18, 2013)

darren said:


> This is why small builders doing original work are very, VERY protective of our work. Either you defend it against all infringement from the beginning, or you have nothing to back you up later on.



And that's the question I've not seen the answer to. Did Vik trademark/patent/etc. any part of the guitars in question? If he didn't, then it's like Bobby Flay complaining that Chili's sells a cheeseburger with green chillies and pickled onions. Or Chrysler complaining that Chevy's HHR looks too much like a PT Cruiser. Yes, there's a big degree of visual & ingredient similarity, but they're not identical: the quality of components will vary, the quality of workmanship will vary.

That's why Rick Toone "merely" got a design patent (protects the visual design -- like an original Coke Bottle) for his IPNP necks. Unless Vik did the same, there's no legal recourse. He and his fans can complain, attempt to shame, etc. all they want, but that's about the limit of what they can do. I think a lot of people buy into the uniqueness of a design and feel that the presence of a lower quality and/or less expensive model that looks very similar devalues their guitar because it's not as unique as it was.

Ray


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## ElRay (Sep 18, 2013)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I've seen the reverse. Look at Novax and fanned frets.



That one was even worse. Novax didn't have a patent on Multi-Scaled guitars. He had trademark on "Fanned-Fret" and a patent on a ***FLAWED*** method for laying out the frets (which he didn't even use, nor teach to official licensees). He also had an overly aggressive business manger that basically extorted licensing fees from builders by threatening them with lawsuits if they made any multi-scaled instruments.

Ray


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## Aghasura (Sep 18, 2013)

Oh, silly Vik. You may know how to build a guitar, but you sure as hell don't know how to be a professional businessman. 

There's not much I could further add to what has already been said. Lame sauce, Vik.


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## DVRP (Sep 18, 2013)

This just keeps getting better, all those examples of headstocks should refute anything Vik said and make anyone defending him look retarded.


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## leonardo7 (Sep 18, 2013)

So a luthier who has built a copy of a basic looking guitar and got no recognition for it in the past isn't allowed to say anything when their very original work gets copied? Just because he's built a copy in the past, that makes it wrong of him to say anything? He isn't allowed to say ANYTHING? 

I have more respect for Vik now because he isnt a pussy. I cant stand when people give people a hard time for expressing themselves. Vik is the man!


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## shanejohnson02 (Sep 18, 2013)

Not taking sides here, just trying to summarize for clarity:

Core issue:
1) Vik copied designs when he started.
2) Vik is angry that other people copied his designs. 
3) Vik complained about it on a semi-public forum. I say "semi-public" because it's his company's FB wall, and not everyone reads it.

Secondary issues:
1) We still haven't clearly defined what an outright "copy" is, vs "being heavily influenced" or "sharing certain design cues".
2) There is no clear rule or law on intellectual property that is not legally protected.
3) Vik was probably (according to the ratio of opinions expressed here) unprofessional in his handling of the situation.

We're left with more questions and gray areas than answers.

Now, for my 2 cents: Was Vik hypocritical? seems like it. Was he unprofessional? In my opinion, yes. Does he still make badass guitars that I would love to own if I had the money? Absolutely. 

I personally don't see the problem with 2 companies making the same thing. Look at it this way: A Lamborghini kit-car vs a real Lambo. Outwardly identical, only a real car enthusiast would know the difference. Some people are OK with paying less for a second-best product, while others are willing to save up their pennies and get the real deal, even if the only difference is the name behind it. We see that on here with NGD's all the time. 

Saying that someone morally shouldn't do something that isn't illegal is a hollow argument. Of *course* they shouldn't....but there's no law against it, so of *course* they will do it almost every time. Is it morally wrong for me to outright copy a Vik design? Yes. Is it illegal? no. Can he sue me for theft of IP? Sure he can...but that's a civil case and does not make it illegal.

Yes, VIK does have the right to complain about it in an open forum. Nobody is saying he's not allowed to say anything. Just that it's a bad idea from a PR perspective.


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## abandonist (Sep 18, 2013)

I'm a chef. I try to be innovative and interesting in my creations. My shit gets jacked all the time. Hell, if someone asks I'll tell them how to make it. That's how you further the craft. This is some petty bullshit about egos and avarice.


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## leonardo7 (Sep 18, 2013)

shanejohnson02 said:


> Not taking sides here, just trying to summarize for clarity:
> 
> Core issue:
> 1) Vik copied designs when he started.
> ...



Correct and I highly respect him for mentioning something about it. He absolutely should say something when he sees a copy of one of his guitars. And theres no shame in mentioning other companies who have built a following mainly by using un original ideas. People act like it is a matter of fact that isnt allowed to be mentioned.




shanejohnson02 said:


> 3) Vik was probably (according to the ratio of opinions expressed here) unprofessional in his handling of the situation.



He was not unprofessional. Thats where people go wrong. He's not American, his English is broken. He expressed his feelings and did it in a very simple, easy going manner. Its the drama queens who have taken it to the next level.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 18, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> So a luthier who has built a copy of a basic looking guitar and got no recognition for it in the past isn't allowed to say anything when their very original work gets copied? Just because he's built a copy in the past, that makes it wrong of him to say anything? He isn't allowed to say ANYTHING?
> 
> I have more respect for Vik now because he isnt a pussy. I cant stand when people give people a hard time for expressing themselves. Vik is the man!



He can do whatever he wants, the Internet is still pretty open. 

In that same token, he has total freedom to look like a hypocritical maroon showing his ass on the Internet at the expense of his business in the court of public opinion. 

He's expressing both rights freely, and I don't see anyone stopping him.


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## shanejohnson02 (Sep 18, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> He was not unprofessional. Thats where people go wrong. He's not American, his English is broken. He expressed his feelings and did it in a very simple, easy going manner. Its the drama queens who have taken it to the next level.



Native language has nothing to do with it. It's the fact that he did it at all. He could have written it in Farsi or Korean and still had the same response.

What people are saying is that posting it in a public place is not something a professional businessperson does. From a PR perspective, you make a much better public impression by keeping issues like this between you (him) and the other parties involved. Nobody wants to see your dirty laundry.

Also, nobody is saying he doesn't have the *right* to post whatever he wants. Of course he does. But freedom of speech means that some things will be said that not everyone likes. This is a good example of that.


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## leonardo7 (Sep 18, 2013)

abandonist said:


> I'm a chef. I try to be innovative and interesting in my creations. My shit gets jacked all the time. Hell, if someone asks I'll tell them how to make it. That's how you further the craft. This is some petty bullshit about egos and avarice.



Dont lie now 

You tell them how to make it cause you know damn well that your afraid of being known as a "dick" chef who wont share his ideas 

But in actuality, those are the guys who make it to the next level sad to say. You have to be just as slick in keeping and protecting your secrets as you do in creating them. Hell, part of me doesnt even want to do playthrough vids of my music or give away my secrets to my tone


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## elq (Sep 18, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> So a luthier who has built a copy of a basic looking guitar and got no recognition for it in the past isn't allowed to say anything when their very original work gets copied? Just because he's built a copy in the past, that makes it wrong of him to say anything? He isn't allowed to say ANYTHING?



I don't have a problem with Vik saying anything - I just don't think it accomplishes much of anything other than creating noise.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 18, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> Dont lie now
> 
> You tell them how to make it cause you know damn well that your afraid of being known as a "dick" chef who wont share his ideas
> 
> But in actuality, those are the guys who make it to the next level sad to say.



Show me one single builder who has "made it to the next level" by keeping design elements entirely to themselves. 

I'm in the beer business, most of the best brewers in the world are more than happy to give you recipes. The craft is about execution though.


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## DVRP (Sep 18, 2013)

abandonist said:


> I'm a chef. I try to be innovative and interesting in my creations. My shit gets jacked all the time. Hell, if someone asks I'll tell them how to make it. That's how you further the craft. This is some petty bullshit about egos and avarice.



This times a million my friend.

And Max "the craft is about execution though." I think that holds true here too because if someones buying a vik its not for his design its for his craftsmanship.


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## arkohors (Sep 18, 2013)

So, I just read that (via the extended range guitarists page) Vik posted this on Robbin's customs guitars facebook page:

"Oh hello, you shameless piece of s**t!". 

No reply yet...but i think it has since been deleted. Also, this was posted by ChimpSpanner, so i really doubt that this was someone's attempt to add fuel to the flames.

I guess Unprofessional is as unprofessional does.


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## shadowvault (Sep 18, 2013)

I think thats very unprofessional.If people think the quality in a Vik guitar is so great Vik will not stop selling.He has an extremely big waiting list so you cant ever order one.Stranberg has blueprints for atleast home projects.Most of suhr,charvel,tom anderson and more other copy fender and change the headstock.Decibel said that the goal of those companies was to make better fender guitars if i understand correct.So why cant i try to make a better Vik?I havent even heard those guitars.There is so much hype around them.So many people order them because 2-3 big players play with them.Well the design is the think that i am mostly in love with.
Take a look at this guitar Waghorn Guitars ~ Sauria S and dont tell me doesnt look like a vik just with different curves.There is no parthenogenesis so everyone starts from something.Dont tell me Vik hasnt made any replicas in his life...Also Most of the superstrat type of models look 90% the same.You change some curves and BOOM new guitar shape.

P.S From decibel site:GOOD &#8212; FAST &#8212; CHEAP pick three.In Viks case i cant.If i go good and fast will not be cheap but it will also not be fast


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## BouhZik (Sep 18, 2013)

from ViK himself on his FB during the shitstorm: "I love the Internet! Everybody has its point even though nobody asked for any."

WTF??? don't throw your mood on facebook if you don't want some reaction. He really looks like an ass now.....


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## elq (Sep 18, 2013)

MaxOfMetal said:


> The craft is about execution though.




I'm not yet able to articulate my thoughts in this area, but basically I think when most luthiers start out they primarily worry about delivering quality execution, only after they've achieved confort about their level of quality of execution do they worry about design.

It's somewhat funny - that the luthiers who are most famous and well regarded at TGP or other similar sites are people who are measured for their quality of execution first, design quality is a distant second for most. While here, design comes first while build quality is a distant second.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Sep 18, 2013)

arkohors said:


> So, I just read that (via the extended range guitarists page) Vik posted this on Robbin's customs guitars facebook page:
> 
> "Oh hello, you shameless piece of s**t!".



If this is true... Good ....ing god. 








elq said:


> I'm not yet able to articulate my thoughts in this area, but basically I think when most luthiers start out they primarily worry about delivering quality execution, only after they've achieved confort about their level of quality of execution do they worry about design.
> 
> It's somewhat funny - that the luthiers who are most famous and well regarded at TGP or other similar sites are people who are measured for their quality of execution first, design quality is a distant second for most. While here, design comes first while build quality is a distant second.



As much hate as TGP gets, this seems to be true, and I agree with it.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 18, 2013)

arkohors said:


> So, I just read that (via the extended range guitarists page) Vik posted this on Robbin's customs guitars facebook page:
> 
> "Oh hello, you shameless piece of s**t!".
> 
> ...



Remember, English isn't his first language. He could really be saying "I love you, let's be friends!".


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## leonardo7 (Sep 18, 2013)

shanejohnson02 said:


> you make a much better public impression by keeping issues like this between you (him) and the other parties involved.



You mean you make no public impression by keeping it private. Vik shouldnt have to contact them after the fact when they should have contacted him before the fact. Discussing in private sends no message to future companies thinking of copying his ideas. Its gonna take great balls to copy his designs now.

By the way guys, no hard feelings. Im just trying to defend the guy a little cause he has done me good and I really like his work.


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## shanejohnson02 (Sep 18, 2013)




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## shadowvault (Sep 18, 2013)

arkohors said:


> So, I just read that (via the extended range guitarists page) Vik posted this on Robbin's customs guitars facebook page:
> 
> "Oh hello, you shameless piece of s**t!".
> 
> ...



Well done Vik...Well done...I want to see what triggered him to do so


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## Watty (Sep 18, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> He was not unprofessional. Thats where people go wrong. He's not American, his English is broken. He expressed his feelings and did it in a very simple, easy going manner. Its the drama queens who have taken it to the next level.



With all due respect, you didn't see what he wrote to Tyler initially, and has since reaffirmed with subsequent communication. The height of unprofessionalism embodied.


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## Randy (Sep 18, 2013)

elq said:


> While here, design comes first while build quality is a distant second.



Me thinks "distant second" might be a bit of an understatement.


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## shanejohnson02 (Sep 18, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> You mean you make no public impression by keeping it private. Vik shouldnt have to contact them after the fact when they should have contacted him before the fact. Discussing in private sends no message to future companies thinking of copying his ideas. Its gonna take great balls to copy his designs now.
> 
> By the way guys, no hard feelings. Im just trying to defend the guy a little cause he has done me good and I really like his work.



No hard feelings at all...reasonable intellectual discussion is reasonable.

Whether he shouldn't or should after the fact is irrelevant. He cannot control what other people do. They have already done their part and all he is left with is "after the fact". 

The point is they did it, and he *does* have control over his reaction. Which to this point hasn't been very mature.


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## BouhZik (Sep 18, 2013)

arkohors said:


> So, I just read that (via the extended range guitarists page) Vik posted this on Robbin's customs guitars facebook page:
> 
> "Oh hello, you shameless piece of s**t!".





this morning I was like: "He shot himself in the foot "

now it's like: "he shot his business in the head!"


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## shadowvault (Sep 18, 2013)

I want to see the comments when i will post the Vik duality style guitar that i am building right now


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## DVRP (Sep 18, 2013)

He's just shown people that his buttons are easily pushed so you might succeed ^ hahaha


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## shadowvault (Sep 18, 2013)

Haha i think i will succeed because a really good e-buddy made me some blueprints that are pretty much indentical.The woods are like 20 years old and in perfect quality and a really high skilled luthier is helping me out  Thats a home project btw


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## MoshJosh (Sep 18, 2013)

Almost every guitar is a "rip off" of an already existing design because those designs work. A les Paul is kinda like a tele an rg is kinda like a strat. It doesn't really matter to me but what do I know haha


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## Andromalia (Sep 18, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> So a luthier who has built a copy of a basic looking guitar and got no recognition for it in the past isn't allowed to say anything when their very original work gets copied? Just because he's built a copy in the past, that makes it wrong of him to say anything? He isn't allowed to say ANYTHING?


He can say whatever he wants or feel, but masquerading it as a morality crusade is where he's going wrong, because he's shown he's just like the people he criticises.
If he'd said "it sucks", I'd have wholeheartedly agreed with him. Saying "people who copy headstocks are responsible for third world famine and a plague of cancer will erupt next year, but me, it was different when I did it", sorry, no. Especially since he is STILL doing it.


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## DVRP (Sep 18, 2013)

I think there's a consensus now haha


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## leonardo7 (Sep 18, 2013)

I think what really sets him off is that this Robbins guy who did a Duality copy makes no reference to Vik or the fact that its a copy. Total disregard for Vik. He has numerous pics on his Facebook page and not once reference to the word "copy" or "Vik" whatsoever from what I can see.

Vik:




Robbins custom not labeled as a copy or giving credit to Vik for the design yet its all over his Facebook page. Its even his cover photo.


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## BouhZik (Sep 18, 2013)

hairychris said:


> Parker. But the Parker headstock is fugly...



yeah!

about blackmachine: the first time I saw one, I thought "well, I never asked myself, but now I know. an RG body with a reverse Parker headstock is Fugly"

but now folks are talking about X'n'Y copying blackmachine like BM is original shit


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## Jlang (Sep 18, 2013)

Wow, robbins guitar is even better looking. =P .


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## leonardo7 (Sep 18, 2013)

Vik headstock:











Blackwater:


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## technomancer (Sep 18, 2013)

Vik clone of Suhr including headstock shape and inlay from an anniversary guitar

Master Kuletski Suhr Custom 10th Anniversary based guitar (completed)

Vik can say what he wants, but it's pretty damn hypocritical given he built a lot of guitars like the above to pay his bills over the years 

And his defense really doesn't apply since the Suhr headstock and Modern model shape are well known... as was the anniversary inlay he cloned there.


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## narad (Sep 18, 2013)

I won't comment on right vs. wrong on copying, as, like in politics, there is no changing anyone's opinion on the matter. However, the people acting like this tantrum is going to cost Vik anything, ruin his business, shoot himself in the foot, a PR nightmare, etc. are entirely off base. Personally, when it comes to ordering custom guitars, I'm looking for someone with impeccable build quality, an original design, and good customer service. I definitely don't care about the manner in which he chooses to treat or address the builders that copy him, and while I'm personally glad Vik called some attention to the copying, when it comes to whether or not I'd place an order it's a non-issue.

And not to be age-ist (i.e., I'm about to be), but because most of this went down on Facebook I couldn't help but notice how a majority of the people coming out in attempt to justify copying, to explain how not everyone wants to spend $5k on a custom guitar, and how copying Gibson's 60 years after those designs were originated is exactly the same as copying the designs of a one-man operation who invented them not more than five years ago.... ...yea, almost all those guys are approximately 15 years old. 

It's tough these days - when I was in high school my idols didn't play a rack of guitars, each $5k+ and handmade by a different independent builder. I can see where the jealousy sets in, and condemning copy builders is just ruining the most realistic path for these kids to obtain the gear their idols are using. However, having a sea of kids lashing out, telling Vik how to run his business on Facebook is not going to have an effect in the real world because they were not, in the short term and in all likelihood in the long term, potential Vik customers. Remember Kony? A lot of Facebook angst, not a lot of real world impact.


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## leonardo7 (Sep 18, 2013)

Vik:




Skervesen:


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## tedtan (Sep 18, 2013)

darren said:


> So it's not okay to rip off the big guys, but it is okay to rip off a smaller, independent builder?
> 
> The issue isn't about a "coincidental" likeness between two instruments. It's about someone wanting a Vik, then commissioning a copy from a third party (who's making money on the transaction) using a design that neither has the right to use.
> 
> ...


 
I haven't read beyond the quoted post yet, so forgive me if this has been addressed elsewhere, but the shape of a guitar is not patentable, or copyrightable. It is at best trademarkable, which is only ~$300 per country, and that need not be trademarked prior to distribution or use in commerce. Furthermore, Gibson lost the case against PRS, and since their trademark on the Les Paul shape didn't hold up under court scrutiny, so I'm not sure that a trademark is even a legit approach in this situation. The only way it would apply is if it were to confuse potential customers - a trademark doesn't exist to protect the business claiming the mark, it exists to protect the customers and potential customers who may end up purchasing an inferior product due to confusion as to the manufacturer.


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## shadowvault (Sep 18, 2013)

I think Domineer is pretty different from the Swan model.I honestly dont remember which came up first  .Swan is not so curved in the edges and more rounded


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## asfeir (Sep 18, 2013)

Also I think people should realize that there is a difference between building some copies (most are one-offs) and copying a very popular and hard to obtain guitar and use that to launch your brand by making it one of your production models..


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## wannabguitarist (Sep 18, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> Vik:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wait, does that Vik shape actually pre-date the Skervesen? I think he has every right to be pissed about copies but even if the Vik shape is older calling the Skervesen a copy of that 9 string body is a bit silly . Wasn't that a customer designed body too?


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## leonardo7 (Sep 18, 2013)

wannabguitarist said:


> Wait, does that Vik shape actually pre-date the Skervesen? I think he has every right to be pissed about copies but even if the Vik shape is older calling the Skervesen a copy of that 9 string body is a bit silly . Wasn't that a customer designed body too?



This Domineer build goes as far back as '11 and the design is bass form goes back longer. You can see pics on his website. http://vikguitars.com/en-us/forum/index.php?topic=66.0

The swan was not a one off, its an official body shape of Skervesen and quite a few have been made. Its one of their flagship models now.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 18, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> Vik headstock:


 
As already pointed out, LAG had this headstock since the 90's:






Who is to say that Blackwater, Robbins, or any of the others weren't copying LAG? Though, is copying the copier that much worse? 

Also, while LAG might not have been big in the US, they were big in Europe and parts of Asia.


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## DVRP (Sep 18, 2013)

Thanks for the pictures, if you can't see the differences get your eyes checked, those guitars have likeness, theyre all uniquely different.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 18, 2013)

tedtan said:


> I haven't read beyond the quoted post yet, so forgive me if this has been addressed elsewhere, but the shape of a guitar is not patentable, or copyrightable. It is at best trademarkable, which is only ~$300 per country, and that need not be trademarked prior to distribution or use in commerce. Furthermore, Gibson lost the case against PRS, and since their trademark on the Les Paul shape didn't hold up under court scrutiny, so I'm not sure that a trademark is even a legit approach in this situation. The only way it would apply is if it were to confuse potential customers - a trademark doesn't exist to protect the business claiming the mark, it exists to protect the customers and potential customers who may end up purchasing an inferior product due to confusion as to the manufacturer.


 
Shhhh!!! Quit it with the sense and logic, luthiers are pissed!


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## shadowvault (Sep 18, 2013)

The first uploaded picture of a Swan was around 1-2 months before the upload of the Domineer though


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 18, 2013)

shadowvault said:


> The first uploaded picture of a Swan was around 1-2 months before the upload of the Domineer though


 
Link? I remember seeing the Domineer some time ago.


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## darren (Sep 18, 2013)

tedtan said:


> ... the shape of a guitar is not patentable, or copyrightable. It is at best trademarkable, which is only ~$300 per country, and that need not be trademarked prior to distribution or use in commerce.



In Canada and the US, the shape can be protected under a Design Patent (US) or an Industrial Design (Canada), but it has to be done prior to the design being published or shown anywhere. Not all countries have adopted three-dimensional trade marks yet, but it is becoming more commonplace. 

In Canada, a design has to be in use for five years before it qualifies for Distinguishing Guise trade mark protection, which is like Trade Dress in the United States. My designs will cross that threshold next year, and you'd better believe my IP lawyer will be getting a big chunk of business from me when that happens.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Sep 18, 2013)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Link? I remember seeing the Domineer some time ago.




Earliest mention I see of the Vik Duality is '11, while the Skervesen is a year later.


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## Pikka Bird (Sep 18, 2013)

MetalDaze said:


> All of these arguments are one of the main reasons Steve Jobs hated Bill Gates.



Because Jobs started out by ripping off Xerox Parc, and then Gates also adopted WIMP? Yeah, actually that's pretty accurate.


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## Amanita (Sep 18, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> Vik:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you see the two as related? really? apophenia i'd say 
if you're looking for something that Swan resembles look up Ibanez Grooveline and Ergodyne basses. and that is between subconscious and accidental. subconscious because i always liked funky ergonomic curves like that and i doodled my single-cut Cthulhu bass surprisingly alike without even thinking about it. accidental because then Jarek made Swan by adding an upper horn to it (i love single-cuts and he's no truck with them) - he wasn't even aware of these Ibanez models - he ain't no bassist 

we spent whole day today (between routing, fretting, sanding and the like) pondering how by seven princes of Hell we've got mixed into this. 
i know some were asking Maciek about this. 
in truth we ain't sure if we wronged Vik in some way we're not aware of or if he's shooting us on general principle.

on the whole IP protection thing - contrary to popular belief we have a few designs of our own. we've seen them copied or used as an inspiration here and there. while in no way we're encouraging this we find it flattering as it means we do something right and that it's catchy 
on the other hand while catchy design can sell an instrument or two it's the level of craftsmanship and our commitment to our instruments that makes people come back to us and refer us to their friends. which we find way more important.

and then "Blackmachine is a flattened RG" thing. somehow this became my pet peeve. Brilliant thing that Doug did was taking what makes an SG tick and redoing it with extremely rigid and dense exotic hardwoods.
and genius thing was wrapping it up in loved by all superstrat shape with a novelty headstock (sorri, strings over thin air == Parker for me)
wasn't first Blackmachine an SG copy BTW? 

wishing everyone a nice evening
Michal


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## thrsher (Sep 18, 2013)

not for nothing, but Vik is calling out people on their business practices....he is no saint either. rumors of him taking orders under the table because people offered alot of money. im going on to 27 months now into my order with vik(ordered july 2011 just before his business boomed as well) with a 4/5 month wait in queue. i have seen the following
saviour run (one of which has been in players hand for a few months now)
vik in a week
keith merrow build 
3 guitars for messe
nolly redwood and twin
plus that image of 3 dualities are coming up on completion, i also believe thordendal build is close to completion, if not already. 

all these builds came in after my order, some very soon after and some very recently and all have been completed. i understand the need to complete other work for income, but at what point does the customer get a focus on.i am number 2 in the queue and i can only image the fustration of people in queue from 3-8 and not to mention the savior run is a year past completion time and the nolly run too. then he comes with these 8 string rungs offering a 1 year turnaround? clearly none of that is being meet. my build has constantly been neglected and ignored. i have been given several times diff rent estimates on completion which clearly have not been met and just said to me with the regard to me as a customer. for the matter of money, i have even been paid in full since jan 2013. i may not be a fancy player in a fancy band or part of a circle of players, but i am a customer being treated like i dont matter.


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## thrsher (Sep 18, 2013)

a quote from blackat guitars "No. Sorry. I know that this isn't popular and most artists hate to hear this but BlacKat is a no endorsement company. We like to build guitars for artists and we do our best to deliver great product, but as we pay for our tools, we expect artists to pay for their guitars like all other customers. On the other hand we don't want to tie anyone's creative freedom by endorsement contracts. Guitar is just a tool to make some great music. Some builders will agree to build guitars for free or for cost of the parts, but at the end of the day someone pays the bill and if it is not artist, then it is another customer". this is what builders should focus on, its customers. that last ine really hits home


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## _MonSTeR_ (Sep 18, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> Vik:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



These guitars look no more alike than an Ibanez RG looks like an ESP MII looks like a Jackson Soloist, I fail to see any real issue there. In order for a guitar to have a functional and marketable double cutaway body shape, to certain extents they're all going to have to look the same.

The Decibel Javelin looks kinda like a cross between an LGM Leviathon and a Parker to me. But ANY quirky superstrat idea has been done by now, or it's not going to look anything like a superstrat...


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## tedtan (Sep 18, 2013)

darren said:


> In Canada and the US, the shape can be protected under a Design Patent (US) or an Industrial Design (Canada), but it has to be done prior to the design being published or shown anywhere. Not all countries have adopted three-dimensional trade marks yet, but it is becoming more commonplace.
> 
> In Canada, a design has to be in use for five years before it qualifies for Distinguishing Guise trade mark protection, which is like Trade Dress in the United States. My designs will cross that threshold next year, and you'd better believe my IP lawyer will be getting a big chunk of business from me when that happens.


 
That's interesting - it's actually the first time I've heard of a design patent and I deal with IP on a regular basis (probably because I don't do design work). I just went and looked it up on the US Patent and Trademark Office website and it looks like it would require a separate patent for each shape and finish combination you offer. I also noted that the design can't be functional (e.g., a cutaway) and it can't be "considered offensive to any race, religion, sex, ethnic group, or nationality", so you better watch the horns on your guitars - I find them offensive to my religious sensibilities because they resemble penises.


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## narad (Sep 18, 2013)

thrsher said:


> not for nothing, but Vik is calling out people on their business practices....he is no saint either. rumors of him taking orders under the table because people offered alot of money. im going on to 27 months now into my order with vik(ordered july 2011 just before his business boomed as well) with a 4/5 month wait in queue. i have seen the following
> saviour run (one of which has been in players hand for a few months now)
> vik in a week
> keith merrow build
> ...



Yea, what Vik builds is great, but I'm in a similar situation and agree - I paid up prior to the Saviour group run, and my own Saviour is lagging behind it for no reason that I can understand. If I was building and Thordendal approach me, hell, give him the priority queue - I can't pretend that I can put it to equivalent use. 

But as to all these auctioned off Messe builds...annoys me quite a bit and I'll probably wind up paying a hugely increased customs bill because of my own relocations that took place during the hugely delayed build. Now, I am used to build estimates being absolute rubbish, and that's the case with a majority of builders it seems, but I still expect a more-or-less first-in/first-out operation of the build queue. 

To give an idea, I think I was quoted about 8 months originally, and I think that was about 18-20 months ago.

Though...an entirely separate issue from builder-to-builder respect to honor original designs.


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## leonardo7 (Sep 18, 2013)

Robbins Custom Guitars Facebook page has gotten around 150 new likes in the last 2 hours since I posted that comparison pic


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## capoeiraesp (Sep 18, 2013)

Amanita, as a close friend of Ormsby Guitars, you guys really impressed me with how well you handled the raptor CNC plugs issue. Sure, you could have lost your cool and told Perry where to go but instead you worked together in a humble and collaborative manner. I know this has nothing to do with the current Vik issue but it impressed me none the less. Keep doing what you're doing, which is putting out consistent quality custom guitars at affordable prices in a VERY timely manner.


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## Watty (Sep 18, 2013)

capoeiraesp said:


> Amanita, as a close friend of Ormsby Guitars, you guys really impressed me with how well you handled the raptor CNC plugs issue. Sure, you could have lost your cool and told Perry where to go but instead you worked together in a humble and collaborative manner. I know this has nothing to do with the current Vik issue but it impressed me none the less. Keep doing what you're doing, which is putting out consistent quality custom guitars at affordable prices in a VERY timely manner.



Amen!


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## mikernaut (Sep 18, 2013)

Ibanez 540pII or Jackson Demon ? ... GO!


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Sep 18, 2013)

Obviously a Mosrite.


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## Watty (Sep 18, 2013)

To reply to a few choice tidbits...



leonardo7 said:


> VIK DID NOTHING WRONG. So people can rip off his designs and hes "not allowed" to state how he feels? WTF



With regards to wanting to defend his design? Correct, no wrong done.
With regards to STATING THAT he doesn't like it? Correct, no wrong done.

With regards to HOW HE STATED THAT he doesn't like it? ....wrong doesn't begin to cover it.



darren said:


> Let me put it this way...
> 
> Most of you guys are musicians. If your livelihood comes exclusively from making music, do you consider it flattery or theft if someone takes the product of your creative output, slaps their name on it and makes money from it?



We're not talking about theft in the narrow sense that you indicate here. This is more along the lines of someone developing a set of drum samples specifically tweaked for their library and then someone else writing some music with them. Maybe a reduction, but given that Tyler:

A) Did not have a template to work from.
B) Told me straight out he wouldn't make an exact copy even if he could.

He was obviously aware of the potential ramifications associated from taking Vik's "music" and selling it for his own gain. Notice Tyler has not advertised the design as being his or allowing people to cue for additional orders using it. If he'd done that, your argument would work to a tee, but he hasn't and therefore it seems preemptory at best.



leonardo7 said:


> I agree that it doesnt matter if the company is large or small etc. I just meant that it hurts the little guy more. Plus your more likely to get caught by the little guy maybe.



This is precisely the point. I liken this argument to the proponents of gun rights. They don't argue for a private citizen's right to own an RPG or tank (technically armaments) and therefore inherently concede that there does exist a line in the spectrum of ownership "privileges." Vik did the same thing when he copied the shapes owned by Gibson, Fender, Suhr, Ibanez, etc. to make a name for himself. By your own admission, he's at fault with HIS OWN LOGIC. Is he wrong to be angry about it? No, of course not. But citing this argument (either himself or through his fan club) does nothing to help your case, especially given the medium and craze surrounding this issue now.



darren said:


> Well, initially, he DIDN'T name names. His original post was professionally vague. It's only after the shitstorm exploded that he divulged details, and lumped in a few other builders with his argument.



He didn't name names, but he posted that status literally minutes after Tyler showed me his reply to a message that Vik sent to him (that was childish, insulting, unprofessional, etc). Instead of working it out with Tyler privately (what Tyler contritely and politely offered), Vik took to FB to air the situation. 

It devolved from there as Vik continued to be an absolute unprofessional ASS to Tyler (he showed me the messages he received as I'm "in this" too) while alienating his potential customer base with his public actions.

See Arkohor's comment earlier about what Vik posted on Tyler's business page (FB).



DVRP said:


> What defines a copy? Is it just mere likeness? Or is it everything down to the exact spec the same? Since there's a possibility someone who's never seen nor heard of a Decibel guitar could come up with a design that is very close to that of your designs; would that be stolen design when it's technically intellectual property, or would it not be?
> 
> Edit: Careful Vik sends Hitmen lolol



Hitmen aside (seriously Vik?), IP (IIRC) correctly is dictated by reasonable difference. I'd defer to Darren's opinion on this given that he sounds to have obtained a patent or two (or something similar?), but as long as a given number of things are changed, it's not a copy in the legal sense. It might be as subtle as changing a fillet or two and how much of a point happens to be at a given intersection of planes. Given that Tyler did not have dimensions of a template to work from it's an inspired imitation. 

And as someone mentioned earlier, take a look at my headstock design (originally put into production at BW - gave Aaron my permission to use on subsequent instruments and then used on this Robbins guitar) and Viks. Are they similar? Damn straight, I love his design and surely took cues from it in shaping my own. Are they exactly the same? No.


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## User Name (Sep 18, 2013)

Watty said:


> To reply to a few choice tidbits...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## leonardo7 (Sep 18, 2013)

Wow Robbins is in full on copy mode.


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## User Name (Sep 18, 2013)

i dont see why it matters. all these luthiers are so booked up with business that they have to cut off their order times so they dont get overwhelmed with orders. where in this scenario do they have any loss whatsoever? i dont see one, because these other makers are only making similar models for people that cant/couldnt get an order in for vik originally.


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## Watty (Sep 18, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> Wow Robbins is in full on copy mode.



"Full on copy mode" entails building two guitars in the shape?

A, I get it, you own two (?) of his instruments and feel some loyalty to him. That's cool, but it seems like you're missing the point of why this whole thing "blew up" as it were. I'd ask to you comment on whether you feel Vik handled this well, irrespective of the copy issue.


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## will_shred (Sep 18, 2013)

So, just going to chime in here. I can understand how Vik would be annoyed with Skervesen and the swan shape (though I personally like the Vik much more) however hasn't it been established that the Robbins was a one off, customer requested custom? and the Luthier (whats his name?) has a lot of original designs in the works? Also, I feel like the waiting list argument does hold water. I mean, it's not like Robbins is going to start copying Vik designs as a thing, and Vik probably has enough orders booked to sustain him for a long time yes? Another point, on facebook ViK literally has 30x the fan base of Robbins. It's not like there's any remote threat to his business here... Vik might be a little guy, but then Robbins is an ant on that scale. 

I guess I just fail to see what all the drama is about.

*EDIT:* okay after seeing the 2nd Robbins Vik copy... that changed my feelings a tiny bit. Not by much, however if Robbins started making even more Vik copies THAT would be crossing a line. I think that Vik is awesome because of his designs (though we've already established that he is influenced by other companies as well). The craft moves forward and changes with time. I wonder if Ibanez could have predicted that there would be so many people ripping off the RG shape? it was a cool design concept that took off. Vik's really cool designs might take off too, inspiring even more similar builds that were made off the concept, but with the own twist of any said builder. 

Oh, and wait... I think there was a company making a very similar design to Vik, way before Vik... oh wait it's music man. I'm not trying to stir the pot here, I'm just saying other builders may be influenced to create their own designs in the future based off of Vik's designs. The lotus is kind of like a more metal, off set bongo. Maybe i'm just stretching it, but I definitely think I see music man influence in his designs, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.


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## arkohors (Sep 18, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> Wow Robbins is in full on copy mode.



How about getting your facts straight before coming to assumptions. I'd say the situation is similar to Skervesen's BM copy run. 

Tyler has no intention of ever building another straight-copy.


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## Watty (Sep 18, 2013)

will_shred said:


> *EDIT:* okay after seeing the 2nd Robbins Vik copy... that's not cool. I just really, really hope he doesn't do it again.



That was built months ago and is even further from a copy than mine is...


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Sep 18, 2013)

Someone's getting a bit too passionate about this.


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## Watty (Sep 18, 2013)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Someone's getting a bit too passionate about this.



You're talking me? 

If so, I feel "responsible" that Tyler's even on the proverbial "hook" for this. I asked him for the commission and I feel kind of bad that Vik treated him the way he did as a result.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Sep 18, 2013)

No, not you. Sorry. 

Talking about Leonardo posting the older Robbin guitar.


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## will_shred (Sep 18, 2013)

Watty said:


> That was built months ago and is even further from a copy than mine is...



Gotcha, I retract my statement wholeheartedly.


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## arkohors (Sep 18, 2013)

Just throwing this out there after reading all the facebook posts, and posts in this thread, and after talking to several people individually:

Does it seem like the people who really get bent out-of-shape, in regard to "copy guitars," are the elitists that paid high prices and own Blackmachines and/or Vik's, etc.? 

While I understand the whole IP issue, it seems like someone owning an aesthetically similar guitar really pisses those people off. I mean, I've seen some of those people bashing on the quality of the Watty's guitar as well as guitars from Skervesen and Blackwater when their only experiences with those are seeing pics and reading other people's reviews.


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## leonardo7 (Sep 18, 2013)

I have no beef with Robbins, or Skervesen, Siggery or Black Water. Didn't mean to come off that way and certainly never said anything bad about those companies in this thread that Im aware of.

Not gonna lie, I hope Skervesen still lets me order a Cocobolo top, Snakewood fretboard Raptor 7 now


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## User Name (Sep 18, 2013)

arkohors said:


> Just throwing this out there after reading all the facebook posts, and posts in this thread, and after talking to several people individually:
> 
> Does it seem like the people who really get bent out-of-shape, in regard to "copy guitars," are the elitists that paid high prices and own Blackmachines and/or Vik's, etc.?
> 
> While I understand the whole IP issue, it seems like someone owning an aesthetically similar guitar really pisses those people off. I mean, I've seen some of those people bashing on the quality of the Watty's guitar as well as guitars from Skervesen and Blackwater when their only experiences with those are seeing pics and reading other people's reviews.


this.... exactly this.


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## glassmoon0fo (Sep 18, 2013)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> No, not you. Sorry.
> 
> Talking about Leonardo posting the older Robbin guitar.


 

Leo lost credibility the second he started calling everyone jealous for being poor. Again


----------



## flint757 (Sep 18, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> IMO its idiotic and just plain stupid to not see this from Viks side. If you want to *copy some old design like Fender or Gibson* then go ahead and do it all day long cause its already been done to death, plus those are HUGE companies. Dont expect to copy a design from a young, new, very successful, up and coming, world class, one man show luthier and expect for him to not say something about it on his facebook page.





darren said:


> Fender dropped the ball by NOT protecting their intellectual property for 30-40 years. By the time they got around to trying to enforce all the copies, it was too late, and all they could do was protect their headstock shape as a trade mark.





bhakan said:


> It is identical to a strat, save a minute change to the headstock. Skervesens Raptor is the same thing to a Blackmachine. Is one OK but the other one not?





Dan said:


> So what about the Les Paul, the Flying V, The RR V, the Jaguar, the PRS and the Kelly shapes? They have all been copied and altered by the big companies as well as independent luthiers over the years. Companies are still doing it today, i mean look at the RGD shape, we all commented on how similar it was to EBMM's JP body shape upon release.


I am trying to figure out the double standard/hypocrisy present in this situation, especially since this is solely a moral argument. If there is a patent there is no legal argument, just a lawsuit and a cease-and desist.

Why indeed is it okay for some and not others? Yes, in some cases, it hurts smaller luthiers. From a utilitarian standpoint it is worse, but the morality of the situation is the same either way.



leonardo7 said:


> I am dumbfounded by the shitty attitudes of lots of dudes who are really just angry inside that they have never played a Vik and never will be able to afford one. Its like they take this as a finally having a reason to justify and make themselves feel good about that reality.


 
So because someone disagrees with you they must be:
Young
Immature
Cheap
Want a VIK
Bought a copy 
Looking for justification

I find it humorous that it isnt possible somehow for someone to be none of these things and draw a different conclusion. I have no desire for a VIK nor will I ever drop 5K on a guitar. 



Dan said:


> so my  is Don't copy. Innovate. If someone complains about that they are a fool.


 
Im of two sides on this particular point. I think people should be able to profit from their designs. I also think that big things come from new/different designs and ideas. That being said, most of the worlds progress, especially in tech, is from improving on or combining previously existing designs. Doing it any other way actually halts progress to an extent and in the end promotes IMO an unrealistic monopoly which only furthers the divide between the wealthy and the not so wealthy (off topic from luthiers and guitars as it is niche and ultimately nonessential).




darren said:


> A company's rate of output or wait list has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING on the rights of others to steal their design. That is without a doubt the most ridiculous argument I've read on this subject.


Most ridiculous, really?  On one hand Im inclined to agree with you, but in other industries when a company cannot meet demand or has a feature that affords something essential (not implying this is the case here) they are required/inclined to allow licensing (pending on circumstances). 

Yes, consumers come across as a bit entitled, but lets not kid ourselves into believing that the luthiers in many of these situations dont come across as just as entitled. Not many other industries can completely miss their deadlines, and it be expected, and then charge for it. I understand and agree that it is perhaps a superior product, but...



narad said:


> And not to be age-ist (i.e., I'm about to be), but because most of this went down on Facebook I couldn't help but notice how a majority of the people coming out in attempt to justify copying, to explain how not everyone wants to spend $5k on a custom guitar, and how copying Gibson's 60 years after those designs were originated is exactly the same as copying the designs of a one-man operation who invented them not more than five years ago.... ...yea, almost all those guys are approximately 15 years old.


 
There are more old people on facebook than young people that I know.  It may not be fiscally the same, but it is morally the same. Most of the arguments being brought up are moral arguments, right and wrong, not financial. There are more strat copies, Gibson copies, etc. than any other exactly because they are larger companies. It may not be a 1:1 scale, but it does hurt them. I bought Warmoth parts to put together a Strat. This means Fender didnt get any of my money.




MetalDaze said:


> All of these arguments are one of the main reasons Steve Jobs hated Bill Gates.





Pikka Bird said:


> Because Jobs started out by ripping off Xerox Parc, and then Gates also adopted WIMP? Yeah, actually that's pretty accurate.


​


----------



## elq (Sep 18, 2013)

if you honestly think that the "saviour" shape is a clone of that Music Man bass, I have another guitar to show you


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## leonardo7 (Sep 18, 2013)

glassmoon0fo said:


> Leo lost credibility the second he started calling everyone jealous for being poor. Again



I called everyone jealous for being poor? I never used the word poor. Your not poor just because you cant afford a Vik. Your poor if you cant afford Dimarzio pickups maybe 

I said that it appears as though some people on Facebook who couldnt afford a Vik are now using this as a psychological justification for the reality of not being able to afford said guitar.


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## darren (Sep 18, 2013)

will_shred said:


> Oh, and wait... I think there was a company making a very similar design to Vik, way before Vik... oh wait it's music man. I'm not trying to stir the pot here, I'm just saying other builders may be influenced to create their own designs in the future based off of Vik's designs. The lotus is kind of like a more metal, off set bongo. Maybe i'm just stretching it, but I definitely think I see music man influence in his designs, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.



Whuuuu? 

The Bongo and that ViK look NOTHING alike! Here's what most people compare the Bongo to:






The Bongo, BTW, was designed for Music Man by BMW DesignworksUSA.


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## Watty (Sep 18, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> I called everyone jealous for being poor? I never used the word poor. Your not poor just because you cant afford a Vik. Your poor if you cant afford Dimarzio pickups maybe
> 
> I said that it appears as though some people on Facebook who couldnt afford a Vik are now using this as a psychological justification for the reality of not being able to afford said guitar.



I hate being the grammar nazi, but dude....come on. 

And I don't know what you do to be able to afford so many nice instruments, nor can I begrudge you for buying them. What is at issue here is that you seem to be arguing from a stance of financial stability head and shoulders above where even I'm at, and I do well for myself given my age. It comes off poorly (see what I did there) when you cite in your argument anything to do with your apparent wealth.


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## will_shred (Sep 18, 2013)

elq said:


> if you honestly think that the "saviour" shape is a clone of that Music Man bass, I have another guitar to show you



not a clone, but I feel like the Bongo is kind of the "root" influence for those kinds of shapes. In the same way that the Les Paul was the root influence for The Dean Cadillac, Bruton SC, PRS single cut, Schecter solo 6 and other single cut guitars that may be quite different but are still Les Paul based deigns

Oh, and I forgot about Oni 

Another good point


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## narad (Sep 18, 2013)

flint757 said:


> There are more old people on facebook than young people that I know.  It may not be fiscally the same, but it is morally the same. Most of the arguments being brought up are moral arguments, right and wrong, not financial. There are more strat copies, Gibson copies, etc. than any other exactly because they are larger companies. It may not be a 1:1 scale, but it does hurt them.



These moral arguments seem to hinge on "Hey, you copied X. Now it's okay for people to copy you!" Maybe I fell asleep that day in ethics class, but just because someone is a bit hypocritical doesn't make it fair game for anyone else to do the same at their expense. Our justice system is certainly not founded on such beliefs. 

Whether it is morally justified for Robbin to copy one of Vik's original designs should be entirely independent of whether Vik at one time copied someone else, but of course it's easier to attack Vik's character in a logical subterfuge to try to lend credence to Robbin's acts.


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## glassmoon0fo (Sep 18, 2013)

Watty said:


> I hate being the grammar nazi, but dude....come on.
> 
> And I don't know what you do to be able to afford so many nice instruments, nor can I begrudge you for buying them. What is at issue here is that you seem to be arguing from a stance of financial stability head and shoulders above where even I'm at, and I do well for myself given my age. It comes off poorly (see what I did there) when you cite in your argument anything to do with your apparent wealth.


 
Straight up. Plus, you don't HAVE to use the word "poor", we can read between the lines. Sure, anyone can rationalize anything at all, for instance: you could rationalize that people are obviously not financially stable enough to have a clear viewpoint like yours.....do you catch the drift yet?


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## leonardo7 (Sep 18, 2013)

Watty said:


> I hate being the grammar nazi, but dude....come on.
> 
> And I don't know what you do to be able to afford so many nice instruments, nor can I begrudge you for buying them. What is at issue here is that you seem to be arguing from a stance of financial stability head and shoulders above where even I'm at, and I do well for myself given my age. It comes off poorly (see what I did there) when you cite in your argument anything to do with your apparent wealth.



Where did I cite my anything related to my personal wealth? 

Im not rich. I barely have enough to buy the guitars that I do. And when I need money for something important like real world bills, I sell some of them on the under, or on here at a loss. I only still own a few of the many guitars I have done NGDs for.


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## Watty (Sep 18, 2013)

narad said:


> Whether it is morally justified for Robbin to copy one of Vik's original designs should be entirely independent of whether Vik at one time copied someone else, but of course it's easier to attack Vik's character in a logical subterfuge to try to lend credence to Robbin's acts.



After seeing a similar view brought up several times in this thread, I'd almost prefer that you guys were only chewing me out instead of going after Tyler. He built what I asked for and did an outstanding job of it. 

For ....s sake, this guy is 23 years old and already killing it. When I found out he was younger than I am, it kind of put me to shame for not having the balls to put myself out there in a business like this. And now that he has, he's getting chewed out because he took on my commission for a build in which he made clear we'd have to modify the overall guitar to be different than Vik's.



leonardo7 said:


> Where did I cite my anything related to my personal wealth?
> 
> Im not rich. I barely have enough to buy the guitars that I do. And when I need money for something important like real world bills, I sell some of them on the under, or on here at a loss. I only still own a few of the many guitars I have done NGDs for.



Well, even if we ONLY account for the green Vik and the ebony Mayo, you're sitting on over $10,000 worth of instruments (irrespective of gear), which is more than most of us can say on our best day. I have the feeling there's at least two more guitars (minimum) that would easily come close to doubling that number.


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## will_shred (Sep 18, 2013)

darren said:


> Whuuuu?
> 
> The Bongo and that ViK look NOTHING alike! Here's what most people compare the Bongo to:
> 
> ...



Maybe I should have kept my virtual mouth shut


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## leonardo7 (Sep 18, 2013)

glassmoon0fo said:


> Straight up. Plus, you don't HAVE to use the word "poor", we can read between the lines. Sure, anyone can rationalize anything at all, for instance: you could rationalize that people are obviously not financially stable enough to have a clear viewpoint like yours.....do you catch the drift yet?



Just want to make it clear to you and Watty and the other few guys that I have no beef with any of you guys. Maybe my point isnt clear because there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding or something, a lot of it is based on a "reading between the lines" misinterpretation. I mean what I say and no more. All Im saying is that maybe this whole thing makes some guys more happy about the fact of not being able to get a Vik. I mean, if I thought that the owner of BMW was a dick then I might feel better that I cant afford that M3.


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## leonardo7 (Sep 18, 2013)

Watty said:


> After seeing a similar view brought up several times in this thread, I'd almost prefer that you guys were only chewing me out instead of going after Tyler. He built what I asked for and did an outstanding job of it.
> 
> For ....s sake, this guy is 23 years old and already killing it. When I found out he was younger than I am, it kind of put me to shame for not having the balls to put myself out there in a business like this. And now that he has, he's getting chewed out because he took on my commission for a build in which he made clear we'd have to modify the overall guitar to be different than Vik's.



His work doesn't look bad man. It is impressive looking. I cannot comment on the quality and playability.


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## arkohors (Sep 18, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> Maybe my point isnt clear because there seems to be a lot of whining going on, a lot of it based on a "reading between the lines" misinterpretation. I mean what I say and no more. All Im saying is that maybe this whole thing makes some guys more happy about the fact of not being able to get a Vik. I mean, if I thought that the owner of BMW was a dick then I might feel better that I cant afford that M3.



I can't comment for sure on who you are referring to, but I owned a Vik and I currently own the Robbins' Blue duality-body copy. I'd still have both if I didn't have to pay for a $15k wedding. 

I commissioned the Robbin's guitar months before buying the Vik mainly because Vik's waiting list was closed and I really liked Vik's designs aesthetically. However after having the chance to play both, I can honestly say the while Vik's work is a bit superior (as he has much more experience), I can hardly justify the thousands of dollars difference in price between the two.


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## Watty (Sep 18, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> Just want to make it clear to you and Watty and the other few guys that I have no beef with any of you guys. Maybe my point isnt clear because there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding or something, a lot of it is based on a "reading between the lines" misinterpretation. I mean what I say and no more. All Im saying is that maybe this whole thing makes some guys more happy about the fact of not being able to get a Vik. I mean, if I thought that the owner of BMW was a dick then I might feel better that I cant afford that M3.



Fair enough.



leonardo7 said:


> His work doesn't look bad man. It is impressive looking. I cannot comment on the quality and playability.



To the latter, I can say that the quality is as good or better than what I'd expect to get for how much I paid. Course there's little imperfections, but I've noticed some on all three of the hand-built guitars I've owned so far.


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## narad (Sep 18, 2013)

Watty said:


> After seeing a similar view brought up several times in this thread, I'd almost prefer that you guys were only chewing me out instead of going after Tyler. He built what I asked for and did an outstanding job of it.
> 
> For ....s sake, this guy is 23 years old and already killing it. When I found out he was younger than I am, it kind of put me to shame for not having the balls to put myself out there in a business like this. And now that he has, he's getting chewed out because he took on my commission for a build in which he made clear we'd have to modify the overall guitar to be different than Vik's.



While I can appreciate your desire to shield Tyler from the criticism, ultimately it's the builder that decides what he'll build and how he'll build it. If his intent was to deviate significantly from Vik's duality shape, I think he failed miserably and that is why he's under fire now. The intent is admirable, but the final product reflects none of it!

I mean, I'm not going to go making Saviours out of Bongo basses, but as someone that's spent more hours than is reasonable staring at Vik's guitars and brainstorming my future specs, I should be able to see a significant difference and instead I cannot see anything that's been altered -- maybe certain cutaways look a hint shallower, overall it looks a hint more angular -- but all the hallmarks of the duality design are still present. He built it - that's on him.

(I'm sure the kid's good - I won't lie, that's basically the best Vik I've ever seen - but I hope he finds his own voice and that these guitars play and sound as good as they look!)


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## Hollowway (Sep 18, 2013)

Am I the only one that thinks it's weird that Vik is mad that others are copying his designs but he doesn't think it's wrong for him to have copied others? I can't figure out his justification that because we all know him for the Caprice and Duality shape that he can't be copied, but he can copy Suhr, Fender, etc. Fender is kind of known for the Strat and Tele, no? And Suhr is known for having that Suhr logo on the HS, so that's a weird thing to copy and be justified in doing. Agreeing with Vik or not, I just feel like he should come out cleanly on the do-not-copy side or it's-ok-to-copy side, rather than trying to straddle the middle.


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## MetalDaze (Sep 18, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> I have no beef with Robbins, or Skervesen, Siggery or Black Water. Didn't mean to come off that way and certainly never said anything bad about those companies in this thread that Im aware of.
> 
> Not gonna lie, I hope Skervesen still lets me order a Cocobolo top, Snakewood fretboard Raptor 7 now



Boom! I was wondering if anyone would bring up Marty


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 18, 2013)

Hollowway said:


> Am I the only one that thinks it's weird that Vik is mad that others are copying his designs but he doesn't think it's wrong for him to have copied others? I can't figure out his justification that because we all know him for the Caprice and Duality shape that he can't be copied, but he can copy Suhr, Fender, etc. Fender is kind of known for the Strat and Tele, no? And Suhr is known for having that Suhr logo on the HS, so that's a weird thing to copy and be justified in doing. Agreeing with Vik or not, I just feel like he should come out cleanly on the do-not-copy side or it's-ok-to-copy side, rather than trying to straddle the middle.


 
See a couple of my previous posts.


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## BlackMastodon (Sep 18, 2013)

MetalDaze said:


> Boom! I was wondering if anyone would bring up Marty


Was waiting for this the entire time as well.


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## capoeiraesp (Sep 18, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> I have no beef with Robbins, or Skervesen, Siggery or Black Water. Didn't mean to come off that way and certainly never said anything bad about those companies in this thread that Im aware of.
> 
> Not gonna lie, I hope Skervesen still lets me order a Cocobolo top, Snakewood fretboard Raptor 7 now



Umm... There's someone else who can fill this for you already, mate.


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## Erockomania (Sep 18, 2013)

Maybe Vik is trying to thin down the waiting list? 

Seriously tho, he could have kept this professional by simply stating he did not agree with luthiers copying other designs and left it at that (albeit, still hypocritical). But, he just k e e p s ... d i g g i n g ... h i m s e l f ... d e e p e r ... a n d ... d e e p e r with his ridiculous responses on FB. He went from a hugely respected, top of the food chain luthier to a complete ass in one day. You can bet there are going to be more people copying his designs now. Folks who had respect for him and did not copy him for that very reason won't feel so bad doing so now.


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## Erockomania (Sep 18, 2013)

Also, it seems the pics of his copies have been removed from his site.


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## flint757 (Sep 18, 2013)

narad said:


> These moral arguments seem to hinge on "Hey, you copied X. Now it's okay for people to copy you!" Maybe I fell asleep that day in ethics class, but just because someone is a bit hypocritical doesn't make it fair game for anyone else to do the same at their expense. Our justice system is certainly not founded on such beliefs.
> 
> Whether it is morally justified for Robbin to copy one of Vik's original designs should be entirely independent of whether Vik at one time copied someone else, but of course it's easier to attack Vik's character in a logical subterfuge to try to lend credence to Robbin's acts.


 
I have no position on any of these luthiers because I ultimately don't give a shit what they do as I have no intention on doing work any time soon with any of them.

Nobody is saying because he copied X it is okay to copy his Y. People are just calling him on his hypocrisy and bullshit because that is exactly what it is. Fits the definition perfect actually (hypocrisy).



leonardo7 said:


> Just want to make it clear to you and Watty and the other few guys that I have no beef with any of you guys. Maybe my point isnt clear because there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding or something, a lot of it is based on a "reading between the lines" misinterpretation. I mean what I say and no more. All Im saying is that maybe this whole thing makes some guys more happy about the fact of not being able to get a Vik. I mean, if I thought that the owner of BMW was a dick then I might feel better that I cant afford that M3.


 
You assume too much based on your own, apparent, proclivity.

[EDIT]

Also, I wasn't implying in my previous post that it was okay. I was saying that people in this thread, VIK and I'm sure many others are being hypocrites because they think it is okay to copy fender, Gibson, Suhr, etc., but not okay the other way around. Note that this is not an implication that it is okay either way, but merely an observation that y'all willfully accept a double standard.


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## flint757 (Sep 18, 2013)

Erockomania said:


> Maybe Vik is trying to thin down the waiting list?
> 
> Seriously tho, he could have kept this professional by simply stating he did not agree with luthiers copying other designs and left it at that (albeit, still hypocritical). But, he just k e e p s ... d i g g i n g ... h i m s e l f ... d e e p e r ... a n d ... d e e p e r with his ridiculous responses on FB. He went from a hugely respected, top of the food chain luthier to a complete ass in one day. You can bet there are going to be more people copying his designs now. Folks who had respect for him and did not copy him for that very reason won't feel so bad doing so now.


 
If people do because of this situation that would be especially shallow.


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## Erockomania (Sep 18, 2013)

flint757 said:


> If people do because of this situation that would be especially shallow.



Yes, but when you lose respect, people are, well, less respectful...


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## Adam Of Angels (Sep 19, 2013)

I don't think he should have said all of that publicly (in fairness, I haven't even read everything he said yet) but I feel like most of the people who have taken offense to Vik's comments wouldn't have been even slightly offended if a close friend of their's made similar comments about the competition of his auto-paint shop, or sandwich shop, etc.. I guess I just always found it odd that people hold public figures (which I wouldn't even call Vik, since he's still largely an underground, small business owner) to higher standards than their own piers. I still wouldn't hesitate to order from him if I knew I liked his guitars (I've never played one, so I'm just sharing my observation about this, rather than trying to defend Vik.. I don't think anybody should lay down their integrity for the sake of taking a jab at somebody else).

Edit: you know, nevermind, he really is handling this like a child. It's sad to see this happen, honestly, because his work showed so much promise


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## Señor Voorhees (Sep 19, 2013)

Really shitty way to air your grievances, even if he is right. I'm not gonna want to do business with a foot stamping cry baby, even if his work is good if I can get comparable work from someone else who's much more professional. Perhaps because it's not my design, but I think trademarking guitar body designs is a little silly to some extent. Somebody mentioned it before, maybe multiple times since I only skimmed the thread, but these small luthiers are flippin booked. Most of them aren't taking orders, and once they open up, they fill up just as quick. It doesn't feel like they're losing much business in the end of it, if any at all. All the things I've seen seem perfectly fine in my eyes, even if similar. The shapes vary slightly enough where if you tried selling one as the other, someone who knows their shit will be able to spot the difference. (kind of like trying to ditch a rebadged epi to Gibson explorer. No mildly knowledgeable person would miss that.)

I mean shit, look at ESP Eclipse's, Agile Al's, Ibanez ART/ARZ, and Les Pauls. Those are all a hell of a lot closer in looks to what I've been seeing this guy get pissy about. It's irritating if someone copies your design, but when you can still maintain a constant waiting list, it's nothing worth throwing a shit fit on your professional page over. I can see getting overly worked up if the other guy starts ripping noticeable business from you, but again... When you can maintain a constant waiting list, it's just dumb. If I could wager a bet, I'd put my money on the guy losing more business to his hissy fit than he did to the guy making however many clones he did.


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## Watty (Sep 19, 2013)

Adam Of Angels said:


> (which I wouldn't even call Vik, since he's still largely an underground, small business owner)



That's just it though. Gibson can call shit on anyone and it doesn't matter because their business doesn't depend on word of mouth advertising. Vik (and others like him) thrive on this sort of dissemination of their works and therefore shouldn't take any associated impacts lightly.

I realize that it's not exactly the same, but when I worked retail...the customer was always right. No two shits about it. And that meant that no matter how big a dick they were, you had to treat them like they were royalty. I should think some of this mentality would trickle down to the "luthier level" of marketing, at least to the point where you can start with honest dialogue before allowing it to take on any malicious intent.


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## abandonist (Sep 19, 2013)

Let me be clear, what he did doesn't offend me in the slightest. I really like watching people unravel. This thread is delicious.

Outside of that, like I said before, copying is part of furthering a craft. It's just how it ....ing is... It's exactly what he did in the beginning, and it's exactly what up and comers will do forever. Doesn't matter what specific artistic pursuit we're talking about.

edit: and if you're going to neg rep me and not properly parse your tenses, it doesn't really count.


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## Dan (Sep 19, 2013)

The best way to sum up this entire thread:


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## Andromalia (Sep 19, 2013)

Adam Of Angels said:


> I don't think he should have said all of that publicly (in fairness, I haven't even read everything he said yet) but I feel like most of the people who have taken offense to Vik's comments wouldn't have been even slightly offended if a close friend of their's made similar comments about the competition of his auto-paint shop, or sandwich shop, etc.. I guess I just always found it odd that people hold public figures (which I wouldn't even call Vik, since he's still largely an underground, small business owner) to higher standards than their own piers. I still wouldn't hesitate to order from him if I knew I liked his guitars (I've never played one, so I'm just sharing my observation about this, rather than trying to defend Vik.. I don't think anybody should lay down their integrity for the sake of taking a jab at somebody else).



I'm just railing him because he's selling guitars with copied headstocks and would be better off just to shut up and sell them and leave other people be. I'm not yelling how he's ripping a french company off and creating unemployment in my country leading to destroyed lives and orphan children. See the difference ?

He is actually doing the exact same as all those luthiers, and is badmouthing them for commercial reasons and maybe free advertising. And judging what other people dug up, _none _of the designs he uses are actually his own.




> I realize that it's not exactly the same, but when I worked retail...the customer was always right.


Funnily enough this is always true when you work in retail, and never when _you _are the customer.


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## Malkav (Sep 19, 2013)

The one thing I have truly taken away from this thread, and the general responses and many other threads on this forum is that most luthiers are ....ing horrible business men (Vik included) and should seriously consider going to some basic marketting and sales management courses...


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## Pikka Bird (Sep 19, 2013)

narad said:


> These moral arguments seem to hinge on "Hey, you copied X. Now it's okay for people to copy you!" Maybe I fell asleep that day in ethics class, but just because someone is a bit hypocritical doesn't make it fair game for anyone else to do the same at their expense. Our justice system is certainly not founded on such beliefs.



Not the justice system perhaps, but certainly our innate sense of what's morally right and what isn't. If someone steals from someone else then that person has a little less of a reason to feel offended when someone else steals from him a little further down the line. 
To me it's kinda like when ex-smokers who used to blow their smoke right into their own kids' faces for upwards of twenty years are suddenly all uppity about how they think it's oh-so-reprehensible whenever someone even lights one outside within half a mile of another person.



Hollowway said:


> Am I the only one that thinks it's weird that Vik is mad that others are copying his designs but he doesn't think it's wrong for him to have copied others?



Read through the whole thread and you'll see it has been brought up several times. Still valid forever, though.


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## Thrashmanzac (Sep 19, 2013)

just posted on Vik's facebook page:


> Well, the message is sent and apparently received by the addressees, good. From now on we're gonna place every single fact of being copied, copycats' names and whereabouts in our dedicated "Hall of shame" and handle them properly so everybody could have fun of the guys whether that are amateurs or earning pros. There even will be a competition for "outstanding" opuses and may even be rewards of some kind. Stay tuned and enjoy!
> P.S. We will be banning from our sources people commissioning this kind of projects or supporting them in any way. Think twice about what you post here 'cause this is a PRIVATE BUSINESS PAGE and we're not obligated to put up with your opinions, advises, etc. Thank you!


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## DVRP (Sep 19, 2013)

And the hole gets deeper...


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## Pezshreds (Sep 19, 2013)

I wonder if he'll ban himself from his sources for copying suhr


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## Pikka Bird (Sep 19, 2013)

^And Gibson, and Fender... Oh boy, is he drunk or on some kind of medication these days? I always remembered his posts coming off a bit cocky, but this is a whole new ballgame.


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## DVRP (Sep 19, 2013)

Someone please catalog all of Viks copies and make a second Hall of Shame. /troll

"We will be banning from our sources people commissioning this kind of projects or supporting them in any way." 

This mans Ego has been mortally injured.


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## shadowvault (Sep 19, 2013)

Thats what happens when someone instantly gains so much respect and orders  Now he think he is a luthier god and can say whatever he wants


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## littledoc (Sep 19, 2013)

What a tool. Even if he were right on point (which he's not), he needs to grow up and show a modicum of professional tact.


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## downburst82 (Sep 19, 2013)

so I guess that joking earlier about this whole thing helping shorten the waiting list....


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## DVRP (Sep 19, 2013)

Edit Double Post


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## DVRP (Sep 19, 2013)

Im waiting on my ban from his page, Seriously if this was the service industry he'd be DEAD IN THE WATER. Anyone else remember Amy's Baking Company from Kitchen Nightmares and what they did on facebook haha.


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## Slaeyer (Sep 19, 2013)

His comments gonna ruin his business, as he probably needs to ban all of his future customers....


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## tacotiklah (Sep 19, 2013)

I looked up the drama on facebook, then read through this thread. 
I'm sitting here reading all of this and thinking "Are we still in high school here? Is there any professionalism to be found in guitar making anymore?"

Look I don't condone willful copying of people's designs. But I also don't condone businesses taking to social media to whine and bitch about it like children either. This just further fuels why I'll never bother with a custom shop guitar. Ever.
I don't care if you run a guitar business, a supermarket chain, or a fruit stand down on the corner; you keep your grievances and dirty laundry to yourself and handle it in private. Lawyer up, and give out suits if you feel you have really been hard done by other companies. But under no circumstances do you go and have a meltdown the way Vik did. But we all have our bad days right?
I was willing to overlook his bitching about it right up until he starting talking about getting hitmen. I mean, really?
I'm surprised that given this post-9/11 society that the police aren't knocking on his door asking questions. A kid does less than that on a video game and is looking at years of jail time as a result, so what makes this random guitar builder so ....ing special? I'm surprised more people are not pissed about that as well. It's one thing to be upset because you believe people are plagiarizing your designs, but to go around threatening to hire people to kill them is of the lowest, most scum-filled caliber that you can go. 

I've been on sso for years and all I've ever seen is people riding the custom shop gravy train. They get super excited about a builder, builder does well for a while and builds a good fan base, then they screw people over left and right, or start spewing crazy crap and are banned/shamed and people wonder why they never saw that coming. I've seen this happen ad nauseum and I sit here wondering when people will ever learn. 

But hey, this is all just the  of someone that doesn't like, nor will ever buy CS guitars due to things like this popping up. Take it with a factory of salt.


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## DVRP (Sep 19, 2013)

ghstofperdition said:


> I looked up the drama on facebook, then read through this thread.
> I'm sitting here reading all of this and thinking "Are we still in high school here? Is there any professionalism to be found in guitar making anymore?"
> 
> Look I don't condone willful copying of people's designs. But I also don't condone businesses taking to social media to whine and bitch about it like children either. This just further fuels why I'll never bother with a custom shop guitar. Ever.
> ...



  Especially the hitman part, you're so right it's painful.


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## shadowvault (Sep 19, 2013)

Hitman?Oups i didnt read that.The situation is getting out of control.Give this guy some xanax to calm down XD


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## JP Universe (Sep 19, 2013)

My facebook has never been so entertaining  Oh Vik, seriously what are you thinking  

My 

1. Posts semi-publicly out of emotion (Never a good idea, I never even post a whinge on my personal Facebook)

2. Calls out Skervesen (NEVER have copied a Vik in anyway shape or form in my opinion)

3. Calls out Blackwater (Admittedly That one headstock he did was in bad taste, doesn't look any good anyways in my opinion)

4. Repeatedly is posting more and more on Facebook and is now on the warpath even on potential buyers.... A couple of recent posts below 

'I don't want and don't need customers or likers who is ok with stealing my IP or who's dumb enough to promote other brands here. At ViK guitars is always about quality not quantity, be it guitars or followers'

'Every next person naming Skervesen or any other company on this page gets banned as well' F!ck he is coming off as an elitist in many of his posts 

Honestly.... Why is it only an issue when it is BM or Vik related?? The fact is most of the luthiers on this forum are borrowing or 'inspired' from the RG shape 

The only really original designs I see are Oni and Strandberg on this forum. Hasn't stopped me from indulging in almost all of the ss.org luthiers though 

I actually don't like 'copies' on a personal level and I have no idea why the top guys get so worried about it.... Fact is if someone builds a 'Vik' it's not a Vik... it looks like a Vik. Ultimately I think it hurts their business more than anything and they will fade out unless they can come up with something different enough to warrant their place in the market. Maybe Vik should worry less about others and as Thrsher has mentioned focus on getting builds out instead of raging on facebook and not quoting less than reasonable wait times (Almost every luthier is guilty of this BTW)

When Skervesen made that 'Copymachine' I had absolutely no interest.
What attracted me to them was when they received all of these requests to build them a 'copymachine' and instead they tweaked the BM design and came out with the Raptor which again in my opinion is enough of a change to be tasteful. I actually considered Skervesen until they came out with the Lizard in which I put an order in 

When I see a Skervesen Raptor I see a Skervesen Raptor... not a BM.

When I see a Blackwater I can immediately identify it. Same again....

Over and out captain


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## MJS (Sep 19, 2013)

I don't see what the fuss is about. Everyone knows that copying a guitar is only wrong if you copy a Blackmachine and that stealing in general is only wrong if it's something super valuable like a digital _copy_ of a file with the .mp3 extension.



In any case, this won't hurt his business at all. The people that make the most noise are generally the ones that aren't spending any money anyway.


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## Slaeyer (Sep 19, 2013)

As far as I understood the comment about hitmans and stuff, he simply joking.

I also think copyrights and everything should be valued AND protected... but in VIK's case its a little bit different. He complains about people copying designs, which he copied before... just look at the LAG-headstock. He's completely overdoing the situation and by this worsens his image.
But IMHO, I'd rather order a custom from someone, who behaves like a grownup.

But lets see, I'm curious how the situation develops and if he can calm down.
In the meantime he lost my facebook like.


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## DVRP (Sep 19, 2013)

Oh it's pretty clear to a normal person that he was joking about it, but that doesn't matter in the above mentioned climate.


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## Malkav (Sep 19, 2013)

He's like a talented form of DeVries! 

VikVries! 

Seriously though he's just being a whiny c_u_nt now...It's actually kinda boring at this point...


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## Kiwimetal101 (Sep 19, 2013)

Just read his latest post 

It's just like, come on man, stop bitching and build guitars, enough with the egotistical bullshit already.


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## downburst82 (Sep 19, 2013)

it must be reallly hard for him to type all this stuff on facebook with one hand while building all the guitars he is behind on with the other.


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## Kiwimetal101 (Sep 19, 2013)

downburst82 said:


> it must be reallly hard for him to type all this stuff on facebook with one hand while building all the guitars he is behind on with the other.



MUST POST WITH CAPZZ ON HIS PAGE


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## tacotiklah (Sep 19, 2013)

shadowvault said:


> Hitman?Oups i didnt read that.The situation is getting out of control.Give this guy some xanax to calm down XD



I managed to get a screenshot of his exact quote:






Yes Vik, because actually resolving the problem in a rational, reasonable way is less desirable that doing something stupid and illegal that will cost you your entire business. 

And guys, please don't give me the "he was just joking" cop out. A kid in Texas made a sarcastic statement online that was FAR more obviously a joke than this above screenshot:
Yahoo!

You see that? Eight years of jail time for shit like this. Joking or not, there are consequences for the things that you say, and I'm further disgusted at the fact that 21 people gave that comment a like. 
The sad truth of the current business climate is that you don't GET to have an opinion on things. Not if you want your business to be successful anyways. The smartest route is as I said; lawyer up, file paperwork, and serve cease and desist orders on other companies that use your designs. If you don't have a case, then really consider further changing your design and patenting the .... out of it first. First rule of law: it's not what you know, it's what you can prove. 
Frankly a bunch of these luthiers are copying the shit out of each other, after spending years making LP and Strat clones. I feel that none of them have a leg to stand on in terms of bitching about copying tbvh. As was stated above, there's a double standard going on here that imho renders this whole argument null and void. 

If you go around copying other people's designs, then have yours copied, you have lost the right to bitch about being copied.
I might have felt more pity for Vik had he not be talking about hitmen and making ....ing death threats online.


----------



## mcd (Sep 19, 2013)

ghstofperdition said:


> "Are we still in high school here? Is there any professionalism to be found in guitar making anymore?"



there is a complete lack of professionalism in the world right now, not just guitar making. 

on topic: i was seriously wanting a Vik until he decided to show all his cards, and let people know what a cry baby he is. Im just going to start making my own telecasters and selling them to myself. Then when i make a name for myself, with myself, Im going to sue me.


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## narad (Sep 19, 2013)

ghstofperdition said:


> And guys, please don't give me the "he was just joking" cop out. A kid in Texas made a sarcastic statement online that was FAR more obviously a joke than this above screenshot:
> Yahoo!
> 
> You see that? Eight years of jail time for shit like this. Joking or not, there are consequences for the things that you say, and I'm further disgusted at the fact that 21 people gave that comment a like.



Consequences? How much jail time do you think they give you for online threats in Belarus?


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## tacotiklah (Sep 19, 2013)

narad said:


> Consequences? How much jail time do you think they give you for online threats in Belarus?



Honestly, the law differs from country to country, and I am currently researching what Belarus law says about it. My hunch is that they're more strict about it than US standards, but I won't know for sure until I finish looking it up.

Even if it were completely legal, the fact that you have to resort to threatening the lives of your competition to make a point is very indicative of the fact that you should NOT be in business.


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## narad (Sep 19, 2013)

ghstofperdition said:


> Honestly, the law differs from country to country, and I am currently researching what Belarus law says about it. My hunch is that they're more strict about it than US standards, but I won't know for sure until I finish looking it up.



Hahah, please, don't actually spend your day looking up Belarusian law, it's not going to make the point any better!


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 19, 2013)

Eh, I'm willing to believe that that comment was a joke. Not a very good one, but I doubt he's that full of himself. Close, but not quite.  

It's another classic example of a builder being so worried about percieved threats to thier operation (like I said, there's not a single builder in the last 50 years who has been run out of business thanks to copies of thier work being made) that they wind up causing more trouble for themselves. 

A man wiser than I once said: "If your only business strategy involves "the jig being up" as soon as people get their hands on your shape, you need a better strategy."


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## Slaeyer (Sep 19, 2013)

A good friend of mine is a sculptor and faces the same problems all day. All his designs are unique and the reason of intensive designing, et cetera. After a certain amount of time they are copied and the marked is full of rip-off-products. Still he does not sue anyone, because the fact is. If you allow it or not, things get copied. The big advantage of a designer (be it scultpor, luthier, or whatever) is his creativity. 
It always takes some time for other people to copy a certain design. Until this point a designer can sell his unique products AND develop new designs.


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## AwDeOh (Sep 19, 2013)

Heh.. I'm not sure why he banned me from his page. It was probably one of two things:

Posting this: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/2283557-post144.html

or

Asking if I could enter that pic in his Copycat Hall Of Shame.


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## shadowvault (Sep 19, 2013)

AwDeOh said:


> Heh.. I'm not sure why he banned me from his page. It was probably one of two things:
> 
> Posting this: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/2283557-post144.html
> 
> ...



Hahaha thats golden!


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## Kiwimetal101 (Sep 19, 2013)

Lol he just deleted all the comments from his last post..


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## Watty (Sep 19, 2013)

I think I need to create a "timeline" of events for this in my NGD thread so that folks who actually care about getting the facts straight can come and check out how Vik handled this.

He just does not know when to stop, does he...


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## shadowvault (Sep 19, 2013)

Yes do that so everybody can see


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## tacotiklah (Sep 19, 2013)

Oh joy. Here comes the neg rep from fanbois. Seriously, please stop dick-riding Vik guitars and show more class than this.


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## tacotiklah (Sep 19, 2013)

narad said:


> Hahah, please, don't actually spend your day looking up Belarusian law, it's not going to make the point any better!



Well lucky you, I didn't see anything specifically on the subject. 
The fact still remains that there is NO ....ING PROOF AT ALL that Vik was ripped off in any way, shape or form. However, I've given ample proof that he is a manchild that can't even be bothered to handle his problems professionally. 
By all means, continue using that neg rep button if it makes you feel better about yourself. Maybe instead of defending an asshole, develop the maturity to be more impartial. Or not. Honestly, I don't care at this point. I have no desire to buy a custom from ANY company because I just don't trust any of them to not pull shit like this down the road. The only point where I got my jimmies rustled is that he thinks he's so special that he can make death threats like this on facebook and nobody will notice. I dgaf if he was joking or not, that honestly is NOT the ....ing point. If you are a business, you don't threaten anyone, at any time, for any goddamn reason. All I can say is that if he pulled that shit here in the US, he'd be in handcuffs and the joke would be on him, not the other way around.

I can't rub your nose in it to make you see the truth of what I say, so feel free to continue living life in denial because you can't stop riding the guy's dick.


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## Coop2012 (Sep 19, 2013)

I honestly think his page got hacked by someone. I mean to just start raging on about other guitar builders from out of know where doesn't seem like his style. I don't knows the guy personally but I have followed him and his work for years. He just seemed more professional to me before. On the other hand, maybe he's fed up with people copying his work. But aren't all guitars copies of other guitars in some way?


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## shadowvault (Sep 19, 2013)

Coop2012 said:


> I honestly think his page got hacked by someone. I mean to just start raging on about other guitar builders from out of know where doesn't seem like his style. I don't knows the guy personally but I have followed him and his work for years. He just seemed more professional to me before. On the other hand, maybe he's fed up with people copying his work. But aren't all guitars copies of other guitars in some way?


Yes thats how it goes.You copy a model,you alter it a little bit and then you have a new shape


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## Pezshreds (Sep 19, 2013)

I highly doubt his page got hacked. Obviously this shit has been bothering him. So he probably had a few too many glasses of wine and started posting bullshit on facebook


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## misingonestring (Sep 19, 2013)

And now everyone hates ViK.


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## Dcm81 (Sep 19, 2013)

So many of these luthiers with their internet fan base are really whiny, touchy bitches! That bit about the hitman really was some stupid shit!

......... (sp.?) posted some review or article from a japanese magazine about his newest plectrum so I commented that I'd love to try them but they're just too expensive imo (60 Euros for 1 pick) and the dude got all offended and felt the need to start a discussion about it. He then deleted my comments and probably banned me. Don't know, don't care as I unliked the elitist douche right after deleting my comments.


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## AxeHappy (Sep 19, 2013)

ghstofperdition said:


> All I can say is that if he pulled that shit here in the US, he'd be in handcuffs and the joke would be on him, not the other way around.



I think that is more of an issue with the US than anything that kid or ViK did...


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## ElRay (Sep 19, 2013)

tedtan said:


> I also noted that the design can't be functional



And there's one of the twists un U.S. Law. I have an ex-roomate that's a patent attorney and he said that there are cases where design patents have been over turned because they are functional, not visual and then the original design patent holder couldn't get a utility patent, because of prior art.

Ray


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## tacotiklah (Sep 19, 2013)

*sigh*
I'm honestly done with this thread. I think it's very telling when people actually DEFEND a company that pulls the shit that Vik has. All I can say is that if you are actually okay with a company threatening other people, you are everything that is wrong with this world.

Now onto things that actually matter...


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## Vostre Roy (Sep 19, 2013)

Dcm81 said:


> So many of these luthiers with their internet fan base are really whiny, touchy bitches! That bit about the hitman really was some stupid shit!
> 
> ......... (sp.?) posted some review or article from a japanese magazine about his newest plectrum so I commented that I'd love to try them but they're just too expensive imo (60 Euros for 1 pick) and the dude got all offended and felt the need to start a discussion about it. He then deleted my comments and probably banned me. Don't know, don't care as I unliked the elitist douche right after deleting my comments.


 
Actually, that particular guy got banned because of his douchy attitude on this board and for some reason his name has been censored aswell.


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## will_shred (Sep 19, 2013)

> I'm not going to go making Saviours out of Bongo basses



Oh boy, I'm never going to hear the end of that am I? 

Sorry I guess I need my eyes checked.


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## Xaios (Sep 19, 2013)

Vostre Roy said:


> Actually, that particular guy got banned because of his douchy attitude on this board and for some reason his name has been censored aswell.



Actually, in fairness, Huf asked to be banned and to have his stuff removed. Granted, he probably would have been banned eventually, but he didn't like the fact that the mods wouldn't allow him to use the board as essentially free advertising, or that people caught on when he had other users post stuff for him essentially by proxy.

Of course, after he was banned by his own request, I think he was caught making duplicate accounts, so there's that.


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## Watty (Sep 19, 2013)

Tyler gave me permission to post his replies to Vik as well, so you guys will be able to see both sides...


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## shanejohnson02 (Sep 19, 2013)

Pezshreds said:


> I highly doubt his page got hacked. Obviously this shit has been bothering him. So he probably had a few too many glasses of wine and started posting bullshit on facebook



This was my first thought exactly. "Go home Vik, you're drunk."


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## TemjinStrife (Sep 19, 2013)

I'm conflicted on this issue due to my own views on the breadth of intellectual property protections as well as the difficulty and cost of protecting IP, as well as the ridiculous costs to defend claims of infringement.

But, leaving aside the issues of PR and Internet RAGE for a moment, I see three concerns that luthiers like ViK, Darren, etc. have here.

--

1) The idea of "unfair competition." Ostensibly, Darren and ViK spent a lot of time and effort coming up with inspiring and/or desirable designs. By copying those designs, other luthiers are able to gain an "unfair" competitive advantage by gaining the advantage of the inspiring/desirable designs without having spent the time, effort, overhead, and/or training necessary to come up with a good design. 

--

2)The concept of "lost revenue."

The concept of "lost revenue" extends FAR beyond the idea of "lost sales." We see this all the time when courts look at the "market substitution" prong of the copyright Fair Use defense. While ViK may not be directly harmed by another building a guitar using the Duality shape through the medium of lost sales, what about the medium of lost licensing fees?

One potential source of revenue would be licensing the use of said shape to another builder. 

This is what Ola Strandberg does, and he ostensibly receives one or both of a) a cut of the profits, reflecting the desirability and "value" of his design or b) at the very least, a recognition that the design was "his." This affirms the design's value, and is in keeping with some of the "moral rights" provisions in, say, EU copyright law.

Thus, by copying without ViK's permission, ViK not only loses out on advertising, but on potential licensing fees or other compensation/benefits beyond a "lost sale."

--

3) The idea of "dilution." This deals with trademarks and trade dress; that is, things that identify a product's source or brand. If a shape is used to identify a particular brand's product, and others use that shape to identify a different brand's products, the shape loses a lot of its identifying power.

While this may seem like a somewhat piddling or inapposite complaint, if copying of such a distinctive design is rampant and the design owner cannot or will not stop it, they can lose any potential value or protection they might have for that design. That's simply how trademark law works, as the strength of the mark is eroded by its use by others.

This is, incidentally, why we get stories about EVH suing Nike for use of his distinctive 'stripy' trade dress.

--

IP is a very weird area of the law, and we as a generation have a different appreciation of it due to our ability to use digital technology to appropriate, modify, copy, or reproduce protected works.


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## Watty (Sep 19, 2013)

He sure is posting a lot of updates on FB now. Perhaps he realizes he really needs to hang onto the existing customers...?


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## arkohors (Sep 19, 2013)

My reaction anytime Vik decides to open his mouth on facebook:



 GIFSoup


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## Hollowway (Sep 19, 2013)

ghstofperdition said:


> I've been on sso for years and all I've ever seen is people riding the custom shop gravy train. They get super excited about a builder, builder does well for a while and builds a good fan base, then they screw people over left and right, or start spewing crazy crap and are banned/shamed and people wonder why they never saw that coming. I've seen this happen ad nauseum and I sit here wondering when people will ever learn.



Amen. I'm a firm believer that you only order a custom if you simply cannot get that functionality in an existing production guitar. And even then, do it with trepidation. I've learned the hard way from exactly what you posted above. It's a shame, because there are reputable luthiers out there, but this is a weird case of the many ruining it for the few.


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## TemjinStrife (Sep 19, 2013)

I think SS.org is its own unique paradigm of where luthiers go to die, go bankrupt, or have aneurysms.


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## Xaios (Sep 19, 2013)

TemjinStrife said:


> I think SS.org is its own unique paradigm of where luthiers go to die, go bankrupt, or have aneurysms.



Agreed. It's hard to argue with the number of luthiers that have become victims of their own success (combined with poor planning) as a seemingy direct result of SSO. BRJ, Roter, Sherman... and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

I hope that Vik doesn't end up that way. His guitars are some of the most beautiful that I've seen, and I've yet to hear any bad QC stories about him either, although someone else in this thread has stated plainly that they've been waiting for a long time for what should have been a 6 month job, which is worrying.


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## TIBrent (Sep 19, 2013)

As far as the argument that a bunch of much cheaper copies of the original not diluting the brand...
'where once was a hand full of really talented artists playing groove oriented metal, now exists a world where everyone who owns an 8 string & can hammer on the first fret of a low F# string plays 'progressive metal''.
Enough of a diluting to you?


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## -42- (Sep 19, 2013)

Could anyone name a small time luthier whose business was actually capsized by other luthiers using designs similar to their own? Because from what I've seen the only things that really kill luthiers are poor QC or internet grandstanding.


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## Polythoral (Sep 19, 2013)

TIBrent said:


> As far as the argument that a bunch of much cheaper copies of the original not diluting the brand...
> 'where once was a hand full of really talented artists playing groove oriented metal, now exists a world where everyone who owns an 8 string & can hammer on the first fret of a low F# string plays 'progressive metal''.
> Enough of a diluting to you?



Well, when you have enough business that you have to stop taking orders and have a 3+ year queue basically, I don't think you're going to have too much trouble sustaining yourself when a two copies are made (not to say that it's right to do full copies).

Also, even with the shittons of 'djent' bullshittery that exists these days, still typically the bands that deserve attention and innovate on it are the ones that shine through and get attention. It's similar to how luthiery has looked lately, people jump onto the popular idea and those who are consistent and innovate and excel at what's popular at the ones who garner attention.


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## mcd (Sep 19, 2013)

I wonder if Rondo will do a duality knock off with emg's for me? All this thread makes me want to do is find the cheapest luthier to make me it , then post said copy on FB, and try to sell it for 2500 in the FS section.

Do you think I'd make anyone mad?


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## TemjinStrife (Sep 19, 2013)

-42- said:


> Could anyone name a small time luthier whose business was actually capsized by other luthiers using designs similar to their own? Because from what I've seen the only things that really kill luthiers are poor QC or internet grandstanding.



I really think that this argument oversimplifies the issue. Having your design infringed/ripped off/stolen/whatever term you want to use can be harmful even if it doesn't shutter the business.

--

To give you an idea of why Darren is so incensed by the appropriation of designs, I can provide an outsider's perspective on his own particular modus operandi. 

Many of you see the final products: the outline of the Javelin and the AMX, for instance, or the Stealth V. You don't see the lengthy creative process that has resulted in those ideas. I've known Darren for only a few years, and only had a small window into the time and effort he's spent on Decibel-related design and branding. It's rare that a great design comes just by sitting down with a pencil and a piece of paper in a few hours, and if it does, it's a result of his trained eye, talent, and extensive experience.

Thus, when someone comes and appropriates a design (like those Blackhart monstrosities, for instance) they are taking and profiting from a very personal piece of work that he has spent dozens of hours (if not more) refining, without giving him any compensation for that time spent. 

Even if IP concerns are not brought into play, I understand that this can be incredibly galling personally, and for that reason alone, the wholesale appropriation of designs leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Certainly, it's not "flattering." "Flattery" doesn't pay the bills. Nor does a mere "acknowledgement," unless the author has agreed that's all he needs for his work (such as via certain Creative Commons licenses).

--

Now, the line between "inspired by" and "copy" is a hard one to draw, and is very subjective, and that's where things get tricky. I think most people here would agree, deep down, that the guitar that seems to have provoked ViK's response falls closer to "copy" than anything else . . . and clearly (and understandably, in light of the above) it has made him angry.

That doesn't mean his actions were or were not right, but in my opinion, his anger and frustration are understandable.


----------



## capoeiraesp (Sep 19, 2013)

^ well put!


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## Watty (Sep 19, 2013)

While we're here, can we talk about "design" vs. "design?"

In Darren's case, he's shown that he's spent an inordinate amount of time producing high-quality CAD models of his instruments. This represents the bulk of the "design work" referenced by any number of luthiers. I've used CAD programs for school and work and know that it's no small feat to produce the models posted on his facebook page (for example). Might be that you've made test bodies to find the best means of weight reduction and balance, et cetera, et cetera. All in all, you've made significant strides in refining an idea into a tangible and easily reproducible commodity.

However, by the same token, what about someone (no one in particular) who simply draws on paper a shape and adds some curves/cutaways? Do they have the same sort of "claim" to the design as if they'd spent days (as opposed to minutes or hours) reproducing each part of the deign down to CNC tolerances in a CAD program? In theory, it's the same as the previous example, the disparate nature only coming into play when you talk about how easy it would be to produce/reproduce.

Please note I'm not defending any particular position, just wanted to see where you guys stand on how a time investment might affect the "morality" of infringing on IP.

Edit: Re-reading my own post, I see that my overall point isn't incredibly clear, but hopefully you guys get the gist of what I'm getting at.

Edit2: This doesn't even really apply in this case, I'm just curious.


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## DiezelMonster (Sep 19, 2013)

I don't really give a shit about this whole situation, even though Vik said the same things in may on his page. seems like more of the same crap. 

This below is GOLD though........




AwDeOh said:


> Heh.. I'm not sure why he banned me from his page. It was probably one of two things:
> 
> Posting this: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/2283557-post144.html
> 
> ...


----------



## darren (Sep 19, 2013)

Watty said:


> While we're here, can we talk about "design" vs. "design?"
> 
> In Darren's case, he's shown that he's spent an inordinate amount of time producing high-quality CAD models of his instruments. This represents the bulk of the "design work" referenced by any number of luthiers. I've used CAD programs for school and work and know that it's no small feat to produce the models posted on his facebook page (for example). Might be that you've made test bodies to find the best means of weight reduction and balance, et cetera, et cetera. All in all, you've made significant strides in refining an idea into a tangible and easily reproducible commodity.
> 
> ...



My CAD work only represents the last two years of the development of the Javelin. The CAD drawings and the pieces coming off the CNC are just the final "production" manifestation of the creative process. I've got reams of drawings, sketches, doodles and renderings stretching back over 20 years to the original guitar i built when i was 17. One day i'll dig them all up and trace the design lineage from what i drew as a teenager to where the design sits today. Design is the process, not the end product.

When i say Decibel has been 20+ years in the making, i'm not exaggerating. I built my first guitar as i was finishing high school. I went to university to study fine arts and design, and worked as a professional designer for 15 years before i started Decibel. 

So when someone appropriates my design work, i take it very seriously. I'm not "flattered" and i'm not going to sit idly while someone takes a shortcut through my 20+ years of experience to make a quick buck. And likewise, i look out for my friends in the industry as well, because in Decibel's short existence, i've ALREADY had to deal with infringements, so i know first hand what it's like.


----------



## Xaios (Sep 19, 2013)

darren said:


> in Decibel's short existence, i've ALREADY had to deal with infringements, so i know first hand what it's like.



Wow, really? Can you give any details as to what happened?


----------



## Erockomania (Sep 19, 2013)

Xaios said:


> Wow, really? Can you give any details as to what happened?




http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/dealers-group-buys/188530-win-jack-owens-bane-v.html


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## downburst82 (Sep 19, 2013)

I was wondering when blakhart guitars would come up....what ever happened with that Darren?

ps: I understand if you would prefure not to comment(legal stuff being what it is)...(and shit storms being what they are)

it seems like they may have tweaked their ra1 design ( its the ra-2 now) so it no longer looks like the javelin (allthough they still have the other javelinish design up in the custom shop page)


----------



## Hollowway (Sep 19, 2013)

So, not being a luthier I don't have to make decisions like this, but does anyone have an idea if there's any consensus as to what designs are OK to use and which are not? In other words, if you think back to when the Flying V was first released back in 1958, that was a pretty radical shape, as no one had seen a V shape before. Now my guess would be that anyone who saw a V shape come after that would say, "Hey, they copied that from Gibson." But is there an acceptable level of modification that would allow the person to say, "Yes, but I made the ends pointy," or, "I made the ends of different length" or something? In other words, in the case of Blakhart I can see where they got that one design from Darren, with the notch cut outs on the body. But the upper horn is narrower, the body is stouter and wider, and the lower horn is different. Now for myself, I wouldn't have used it at all, because I would have felt it still looked too much like Darren's. But is there an acceptable amount of change that luthier's agree on, or is it pretty much 100% interpretation? And are all the designs in existence up til a few years ago up for grabs, or do most people feel like a new luthier should develop his/her own designs? I know Darren would feel that way (assuming that some basic shapes, like Vs, double cuts, single cuts, etc., are not designs), and I think I probably would. But I would imagine that most luthiers are up for the basic Explorer, Kelly, V, Rhoads, Strat, LP, Tele, etc. Or no?


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## TIBrent (Sep 20, 2013)

Polythoral said:


> I don't think you're going to have too much trouble sustaining yourself when a two copies are made


See but does it really matter whether intellectual property is taken 2 times or 2 hundred? One time is too many. & the number '2' in question here is just the current number, & it will grow in time if honest folks don't stand up for their work.


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## AwDeOh (Sep 20, 2013)

*When commenting on intellectual property, please consider the following example of the correct, and incorrect way to approach the subject:*

The Decibel method.

The ViK method.


----------



## Polythoral (Sep 20, 2013)

TIBrent said:


> See but does it really matter whether intellectual property is taken 2 times or 2 hundred? One time is too many. & the number '2' in question here is just the current number, & it will grow in time if honest folks don't stand up for their work.



Well, in this case I wasn't saying that it is at all right to take intellectual property as much as I was saying that it's somewhat prepostorous the thought that someone like ViK will have his ability to sustain himself due to a couple copies have been made.


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## Amanita (Sep 20, 2013)

heh, Jarek dug out an old ZAK by Mayones neck, done in late 80s, in times when he was working in Mayones. nice headstock isn't it?


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## Musza (Sep 20, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> Wow Robbins is in full on copy mode.



I wasn't expecting to see a copy of my own design here when I enter this topic. I still dunno how I feel about this tho.


----------



## BlacKat Guitars (Sep 20, 2013)

It's Duality with Skervesen headstock (designed by you). Put in context of the whole situation it's actually quite amusing. 

Check this out, Duality with Blackmachine headstock.


----------



## Pezshreds (Sep 20, 2013)

BlacKat Guitars said:


> It's Duality with Skervesen headstock (designed by you). Put in context of the whole situation it's actually quite amusing.
> 
> Check this out, Duality with Blackmachine headstock.


----------



## hairychris (Sep 20, 2013)




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## Malkav (Sep 20, 2013)

This guy is a South African luthier, doesn't even know who Vik is, note the similarities to the Duality? The split headstock as well, admittedly not as deep but you get the picture, just wish he had pics with a better angle on his site (pretty sure you can find better ones on his FB page, but I don't know if you can link those here)...










EDIT: found one:


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## Grand Moff Tim (Sep 20, 2013)

What we've learned from all of this: The design process is a long, laborious, time-intensive process that is a labor of love, and it's morally unacceptable to take the shortcut of stealing designs that somebody else labored over instead of doing the legwork yourself.


...unless the designer dropped the ball and didn't get his designs properly protected legally. Then hey, steal away!


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## Watty (Sep 20, 2013)

You neglected to to mention the two double standards at play.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Sep 20, 2013)

I thought it was obvious that I was poking fun at the double standard.


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## Watty (Sep 20, 2013)

And that's what I get for not allowing the page to load all the way and display the bottom half of your post...


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Sep 20, 2013)

Amanita said:


> heh, Jarek dug out an old ZAK by Mayones neck, done in late 80s, in times when he was working in Mayones. nice headstock isn't it?





BlacKat Guitars said:


> It's Duality with Skervesen headstock (designed by you). Put in context of the whole situation it's actually quite amusing.
> 
> Check this out, Duality with Blackmachine headstock.


----------



## MJS (Sep 20, 2013)

BlacKat Guitars said:


> Check this out, Duality with Blackmachine headstock.


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## Prophetable (Sep 20, 2013)

Vik's guitar is just an interestingly contoured top for a strat knockoff, ultimately.

Get a grip.


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## _MonSTeR_ (Sep 20, 2013)

Prophetable said:


> Get a grip.



Any guitar with a grip is going to look like a copy of an Ibanez JEM...

Oh... Not that kind of grip


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## Choop (Sep 20, 2013)

Prophetable said:


> Vik's guitar is just an interestingly contoured top for a strat knockoff, ultimately.
> 
> Get a grip.



You could say that about many, MANY guitar designs really. I feel like there must be a majority of characteristics shared by two designs before one is truly considered a knockoff. Pickup config and hardware shouldn't really be factored into it IMO because they're shared by guitars all across the gamut. Leave those things out and it's quite different from a strat.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Sep 20, 2013)

Derp


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## Steinmetzify (Sep 20, 2013)

Angry luthier that actually went so far as to copy a Suhr including an INLAY that John Suhr worked hard/paid someone else to work hard and come up with, among other guitars including strats and Les Pauls is angry that someone did the same thing to him. Waaah. 

Get a grip....if he hadn't ever done it he'd have a leg to stand on; the fact that he DID do it and is now complaining of it being done to him is the height of hypocrisy. STFU and build your guitar that was clearly not influenced by anything ever. Whiner.

I honestly think that the reason he's pissed is because the guitar Watty spec'd out looks better than any Vik I've ever seen.


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## Choop (Sep 20, 2013)

Just thinking about it, it'd be extremely difficult to come up with a really 100% original design these days (free of influence by any existing design) that's aesthetically pleasing but also functional/comfortable. Most of the really unique guitar body designs I see from lesser known (less successful?) luthiers end up looking quite rounded and kind of blobby, or just spiky all over like a hedgehog. Many of the early designs just got lots of things right practically and aesthetically speaking.


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## RickSchneider (Sep 20, 2013)

Etherial seems to make things which are far from the norm - and thus they are pushed into a niche. You can only innovate so far, before you come more abstract than what people want


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## darren (Sep 20, 2013)

Rick Toone kinda falls into that category as well.


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## AxeHappy (Sep 21, 2013)

Splat Hybrids and the Gittler guitar as well.


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## darren (Sep 21, 2013)

I presume you mean "Spalt" Hybrids?


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## glassmoon0fo (Sep 21, 2013)

Am I missing something important, or could we just say "protect your work or quitcherbitchin" and end this whole thing? I mean, I like watching a good meltdown as much as the next man, but everyone's allowed a bad day every now and then, and I have to believe Vik will be at least slightly less of an ass down the road. I believe at the end of the day, he had a moment and stuck to it so as not to lose credibility, and will probably not spit retardedness in public again. I just hope the guy gets back to building so we can idolize his builds. And their copies.


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## Amanita (Sep 21, 2013)

i'd add Teuffel to innovative stuff. 
'tho IMO all the contemporary ergonomic headless stuff is borrowing in this way or another from Steve Klein and Ned Steinberger.

as far as what we've learned... 
if you ain't Caesar's wife and Virgin Mary combined please think trice before starting any manure slinging activities. all that can be dredged up will be.
also please remember how easy it is to lose years worth of reputation and credibility in one hissy fit.


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## abandonist (Sep 21, 2013)

It's hard to take someone seriously when they say they've been working on a design for 20 years and it's just a superstrat with some notches. Or a V with a notch.

I'm not trying to be a dickhead to you, but let's be pragmatic.


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## Azathoth43 (Sep 21, 2013)

Prophetable said:


> Vik's guitar is just an interestingly contoured top for a strat knockoff, ultimately.
> 
> Get a grip.








Indeed.


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## arkohors (Sep 21, 2013)

Azathoth43 said:


> Indeed.



Oh damn! I think Vik is going to be sending some hitmen over to Ibanez for copying his grip design


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## Malkav (Sep 21, 2013)

Amanita said:


> i'd add Teuffel to innovative stuff.
> 'tho IMO all the contemporary ergonomic headless stuff is borrowing in this way or another from Steve Klein and Ned Steinberger.



Pretty much agree with you here, they started it and the modern ergo luthiers are just perfecting it by bending the rudimentary forms with some personality.

Also in my opinion Klen's designed was greatly inspired by the Ovation Breadwinner body style.


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## AidanBrock (Sep 21, 2013)

darren said:


> The argument people are making is that they want a "designer" guitar faster and cheaper, not that they aren't happy with the build quality of the original. Two totally different arguments.


True but for someone like me who wants a Blackmachine, I don't really have a lot of options. Since Doug no longer takes orders and I'm left handed I pretty much have to buy a copy. If I could either easily find a lefty Blackmachine or order one from Doug I'd have absolutely no problem with saving up for it perhaps only if it was absurdly expensive ($10,000+). Actually thinking about it, that's not a HUGE price for a top-quality guitar. I also play violin and those things can get eye-wateringly pricey. Even my violin teacher's bow cost something in the region of $2,000 and her violin was probably upwards of $10-20,000. I guess it's because guitars tend not to cost as much people start complaining when the top quality ones start costing similar amounts to other instruments.


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## Discoqueen (Sep 21, 2013)

abandonist said:


> It's hard to take someone seriously when they say they've been working on a design for 20 years and it's just a superstrat with some notches. Or a V with a notch.
> 
> I'm not trying to be a dickhead to you, but let's be pragmatic.



Oh, dayum... call on the burn unit!


ITT: 'Luthier posts something questionable on FB (FB no less!) and everyone looses their minds!'


_Posted from Sevenstring.org App for Android_


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## narad (Sep 21, 2013)

abandonist said:


> It's hard to take someone seriously when they say they've been working on a design for 20 years and it's just a superstrat with some notches. Or a V with a notch.
> 
> I'm not trying to be a dickhead to you, but let's be pragmatic.



There's an anecdote about Picasso, in which an admirer walks up to him at dinner and suggests that if Picasso would oblige him by drawing something, the man would gladly pay for it. Picasso agrees, and quickly sketches it out on a napkin, "One million dollars please." "One million dollars!? You drew that in 30 seconds!" "Yes, but it took me 40 years to be able to draw that in 30 seconds", replies Picasso.

Obviously don't apply this stupidly/literally, but a little food for thought to your vast oversimplification of the situation.


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## BlacKat Guitars (Sep 21, 2013)

abandonist said:


> It's hard to take someone seriously when they say they've been working on a design for 20 years and it's just a superstrat with some notches. Or a V with a notch.


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## teamSKDM (Sep 21, 2013)

in wattys defense, He did increase the fret access.


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## abandonist (Sep 21, 2013)

Honest, I'm not trying to be a shithead at all. I just feel like he's overstating the importance of small changes to an appropriated template. We're not talking about major changes to the guitar as an instrument. 

A Strandberg is a pretty interesting take on the instrument, all things considered. A Decibel (while by all indications a phenomenal instrument) is a variance on existing ideas.

Again, I'm not trying to be ugly, just stating how it looks to my eye holes.


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## as_i_am (Sep 22, 2013)

Remember when Daemoness made this: https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/46411_465638913495850_115030817_n.jpg

There was lots of name calling then, but it was handled like professionals eventually. Why not here? It's the same issue so why can't he behave now? I understand how annoying it must be to have it happen again but seriously?!?


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 22, 2013)

As I've said before, it's not the act of being pissed about a copy that I find to be the problem here. 

What bugs me:

-That it comes off as a childish temper tantrum. 
-Vik has a HUGE queue of guitars that he should be putting this energy into. 
-He seems dead set on picking on a very young (Robbins is 23 or 24 right?) builder. 
-The overall hypocrisy of him copying designs in the past. 

He's got the right to be pissed, but he's throwing that energy in totally the wrong direction and in the worst way possible. 

If you ask someone to read what's going on, who do you think they'll say is 24 and 30-something?


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## Kiwimetal101 (Sep 22, 2013)

MaxOfMetal said:


> -Vik has a HUGE queue of guitars that he should be putting this energy into.



Exactly, I don't understand why people arnt more pissed about this, its obvious he's sitting there watching for any comment to pop up to be able to react to it instantly, while the tools sit there collecting non guitar build dust...

GET A FACKING GRIP AND START BUILDING AGAIN!


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## BlackMastodon (Sep 22, 2013)

as_i_am said:


> Remember when Daemoness made this: https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/46411_465638913495850_115030817_n.jpg
> 
> There was lots of name calling then, but it was handled like professionals eventually. Why not here? It's the same issue so why can't he behave now? I understand how annoying it must be to have it happen again but seriously?!?


So does Vik think he owns all the rights to headstocks that show 2 different woods?  Like, sure it might resemble the 3+4 Vik headstock but I can honestly see how that one looks 90% like a Daemoness headstock aside from not having the typical straight edges at the end.

Max is 100000% right: he just comes off as a giant man-child in this whole thing and it really seems like he's trying to bully a young, new luthier who is showing a good bit of talent.


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## shadowvault (Sep 22, 2013)

Is this thread still going?Get over it people


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## possumkiller (Sep 22, 2013)

Whoa whoa whoa....... if FMIC and Gibson can only copyright a headstock, why hasn't the ESP EXP come back? How come we still can't get a real Laiho model in the US?


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## narad (Sep 22, 2013)

possumkiller said:


> Whoa whoa whoa....... if FMIC and Gibson can only copyright a headstock, why hasn't the ESP EXP come back? How come we still can't get a real Laiho model in the US?



Gibson has trademarks registered for many of its shapes. Note that these are US trademarks, and their attempts at trademarking even obvious things - such as the "Les Paul" name - have failed in other countries. 

As it pertains to Vik, it's not at all feasible for Vik to register trademarks in all the countries a copy would likely originate from. If a big corporation like Gibson can't enforce its trademarks overseas, what chance does an independent builder have?

As to copy builders who still want to be in the good graces of the people they copy, I would suggest they have the common sense to contact that luthier prior to doing it. Pretty obvious, right? If you think I'm not going to care, ask me. If I care, don't be surprised because you never asked! Apologies are nice, but a considerate person, in any capacity, shows some forethought.

Luthier Etiquette. Super Simple Stuff.


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## possumkiller (Sep 22, 2013)

So does that mean we still don't get the "good ol" ESPs back?


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## Watty (Sep 22, 2013)

Kiwimetal101 said:


> Exactly, I don't understand why people arnt more pissed about this, its obvious he's sitting there watching for any comment to pop up to be able to react to it instantly, while the tools sit there collecting non guitar build dust...
> 
> GET A FACKING GRIP AND START BUILDING AGAIN!



Funny you should mention this as I think he may have caught some "heat" from his current customers as to why he spent so much time on this "kerfuffle." In the last week, he's posted more status updates (FB) on builds than he has in a long time.


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## hairychris (Sep 22, 2013)

AidanBrock said:


> True but for someone like me who wants a Blackmachine, I don't really have a lot of options. Since Doug no longer takes orders and I'm left handed I pretty much have to buy a copy. If I could either easily find a lefty Blackmachine or order one from Doug I'd have absolutely no problem with saving up for it perhaps only if it was absurdly expensive ($10,000+). Actually thinking about it, that's not a HUGE price for a top-quality guitar. I also play violin and those things can get eye-wateringly pricey. Even my violin teacher's bow cost something in the region of $2,000 and her violin was probably upwards of $10-20,000. I guess it's because guitars tend not to cost as much people start complaining when the top quality ones start costing similar amounts to other instruments.



Precisely, dude. For what they are, the vast majority of quality electrics cost bugger all in comparison to any semi-decent orchestral/classical instrument. $10k goes a long way for an electric.


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## abandonist (Sep 22, 2013)

$2,000 US for a bow is cork sniffing.

You can easily get the job done for few hundred dollars. 

All that extra cash is so you can talk about it at the symphony...


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## AwDeOh (Sep 23, 2013)

BlackMastodon said:


> So does Vik think he owns all the rights to headstocks that show 2 different woods?



This.

I doubt I'm the only one who has taken a second look at my designs of late to make sure I don't have wind up with this guy running across Facebook, waving his pants above his head screaming that I copied him.

Perception is everything. I just hope that future buyers who come across this little shit storm don't let it colour their opinion of the guys who had mud thrown at them by ViK.



abandonist said:


> $2,000 US for a bow is cork sniffing.



And this. Could not have been stated any better than that.


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## Lorcan Ward (Sep 23, 2013)

abandonist said:


> $2,000 US for a bow is cork sniffing.
> 
> You can easily get the job done for few hundred dollars.
> 
> All that extra cash is so you can talk about it at the symphony...



So it would be like spending 300 on a guitar lead then.


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## hairychris (Sep 23, 2013)

drawnacrol said:


> So it would be like spending 300 on a guitar lead then.


Or more than 2 bucks on a t-shirt.


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## Kiwimetal101 (Sep 23, 2013)

Watty said:


> Funny you should mention this as I think he may have caught some "heat" from his current customers as to why he spent so much time on this "kerfuffle." In the last week, he's posted more status updates (FB) on builds than he has in a long time.



Yea true in the past few hours he posted 3 or 4, which means he's still on FB 

FOOL!


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## Pezshreds (Sep 23, 2013)

drawnacrol said:


> So it would be like spending &#8364;300 on a guitar lead then.



actually it's more like spending $2000 on a guitar pick


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## AxeHappy (Sep 23, 2013)

Well considering even the cheapest, most shitty bows cost around $40 I don't think that is an apt comparison. 

It's far more like spending $15/$20 on a pick. Which plenty of people do with positive results. 

Most of the cost of the $2000+ bows is paying for a master luthier to craft the bow. Make sure it balances perfectly, the hair is attached correctly blah blah blah.

Certainly needless for a hobbyist, but if you're the concert master in the Vienna Philharmonic, likely a worthwhile expense.


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## Xaios (Sep 23, 2013)

Kiwimetal101 said:


> Exactly, I don't understand why people arnt more pissed about this, its obvious he's sitting there watching for any comment to pop up to be able to react to it instantly, while the tools sit there collecting non guitar build dust...
> 
> GET A FACKING GRIP AND START BUILDING AGAIN!



No offense, but when you come home from a full day's work at night, do you get angry messages on your Facebook saying "WHY THE .... AREN'T YOU WORKING RIGHT NOW? YOU SHOULD BE EITHER WORKING OR SLEEPING."?

I swear, it's often like people don't realize that luthiers sometimes do have other things to do in their day aside from building. You know, like NORMAL people.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 23, 2013)

Xaios said:


> No offense, but when you come home from a full day's work at night, do you get angry messages on your Facebook saying "WHY THE .... AREN'T YOU WORKING RIGHT NOW? YOU SHOULD BE EITHER WORKING OR SLEEPING."?
> 
> I swear, it's often like people don't realize that luthiers sometimes do have other things to do in their day aside from building.



You've probably never run your own small business or been paid salary in a production environment (sometimes called "always on" in 3-shift manufacturing).

While a healthy work/life balance is important, when you're behind the 8-ball on your own dime you have to work when you can, however much you can until your projects are completed. 

Taking a break is fine, but bitching on the internet isn't what I'd call "sleeping or eating" important. 

When you work hourly, your time off the clock is your time. Being the sole proprietor of a business is not hourly by any stretch of the imagination.


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## narad (Sep 23, 2013)

Xaios said:


> No offense, but when you come home from a full day's work at night, do you get angry messages on your Facebook saying "WHY THE .... AREN'T YOU WORKING RIGHT NOW? YOU SHOULD BE EITHER WORKING OR SLEEPING."?
> 
> I swear, it's often like people don't realize that luthiers sometimes do have other things to do in their day aside from building.



"Vik posted pictures of sushi saying it was a 'couple hours of cooking.' Couple hours!?!? WHEN GUITARS REMAIN UNFINISHED!?!? YOU MUST EAT MINUTE RICE UNTIL I CAN GROOVE ON PERIFERY IN MAH BEDROOM GYRAAHHHHH"

The most hilarious aspect of this is that the people complaining about him spending time on facebook *don't have orders with him.* I'm the one with an overdue guitar and I still think it's silly to nitpick how he's spending his free time. I'm more inclined to say that the people that are logging Vik's facebook time and calling it wasteful should take a moment to reflect on how _they're_ spending their time.


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## asfeir (Sep 23, 2013)

Also, when running a 1man shop, the time off is very important because I think working non-stop can cause you to lose focus, interest and passion for what you do.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 23, 2013)

Lets be real guys, folks were complaining about him causing internet drama and having a rather public meltdown, not getting a bite to eat, a wink to sleep, or some fresh air. Can you really not see the difference there?


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## narad (Sep 23, 2013)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Lets be real guys, folks were complaining about him causing internet drama and having a rather public meltdown, not getting a bite to eat, a wink to sleep, or some fresh air. Can you really not see the difference there?



I'm not limiting it to the same basic freedoms you would get in a prison - everyone gets some time out of their day to pursue whatever they choose. He could be playing Farmville for 4 hours a day for all I care, as long as he's still putting the other 12 into building. And Vik works a ton. My guitars aren't delayed because of him not putting in the hours, they're delayed because of special builds trumping me in the build queue, which is a separate grievance.


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## BlacKat Guitars (Sep 23, 2013)

Overtired builder = mistakes. *Everyone *needs time to rest and it doesn't only mean sleep and eat.


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## hk_golgatha (Sep 23, 2013)

Max is 100% right. It's how he's spending the time. For an established luthier with an immense clientele to attack younger luthiers who not only do great work but also probably look up to Vik as well as entire companies that are not at fault whatsoever is just absolutely unprofessional. Add that to the fact that this is all taking some time from his builds and therefore his customers and you have exactly why I am disappointed in Vik and why he's probably lost a future customer in me. I hope he can recover from this, the man does fantastic work.


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## BlacKat Guitars (Sep 23, 2013)

No. While I completely disagree with ViK's rant, he does have the right to take time from his builds and do other stuff and customers telling him that he should head back to workshop are in my opinion rude, especially that it's not BRJ case where customers lost contact with builder completely and he wasn't showing any signs of being alive. ViK didn't disappear, he's working so telling him that perhaps he should work a little harder is imo not ok.


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## tedtan (Sep 23, 2013)

BlacKat Guitars said:


> No. While I completely disagree with ViK's rant, he does have the right to take time from his builds and do other stuff and customers telling him that he should head back to workshop are in my opinion rude


 
No one said he can't have a life outside of work, they're saying build your (backordered) guitars instead of whining like a baby throwing a tantrum. 

That said, I do agree that people need to have some kind of like outside work or they burnout.


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## Xaios (Sep 23, 2013)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Lets be real guys, folks were complaining about him causing internet drama and having a rather public meltdown, not getting a bite to eat, a wink to sleep, or some fresh air. Can you really not see the difference there?



No, it _started_ with people complaining about him causing internet drama. That's understandable, and I even agree that he handled the matter terribly.

However, it has since _evolved_ into people voicing their (likely incorrect) assumptions about how hard he works and how many hours he puts in. That part is, quite frankly, bullshit. It is *not* up to clients to pester him (or anyone in a similar situation) while he's not at work, in order to berate him for not being at work. It's basically the same as videogame fanboys have hernias because a title has been delayed and then going on long-winded rants attacking the developer (video game development being yet another industry that is INFAMOUS for having workers that put in positively insane hours during crunch time).

The wonderful irony is that the two matters aren't even connected. He basically cried "Someone stole my design!" and people have responded, "Yeah, well, you're behind in your work schedule, so you deserve whatever comes!" That is, frankly, absurd.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 23, 2013)

Xaios said:


> while he's not at work



That's the point I was making, he's _always_ at work.


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## Xaios (Sep 23, 2013)

MaxOfMetal said:


> That's the point I was making, he's _always_ at work.



Indeed. However, you also said that making an internet rant wasn't a particularly productive use of his time while at work. I agree, but that's not our decision to make, and people e-yelling at him for taking a few minutes out of his day (and if we're honest, that's all it actually amounts to) to deal with something that, while more a personal matter, does also affect his business from his perspective... it's just silly. If my dad calls me while I'm at work and we end up having a non-work related conversation for 5 minutes a day, it would have the same impact on my production at work as his Facebook posting has had on his. That's HARDLY unreasonable.


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## Hollowway (Sep 23, 2013)

Xaios said:


> Indeed. However, you also said that making an internet rant wasn't a particularly productive use of his time while at work. I agree, but that's not our decision to make, and people e-yelling at him for taking a few minutes out of his day (and if we're honest, that's all it actually amounts to) to deal with something that, while more a personal matter, does also affect his business from his perspective... it's just silly. If my dad calls me while I'm at work and we end up having a non-work related conversation for 5 minutes a day, it would have the same impact on my production at work as his Facebook posting has had on his. That's HARDLY unreasonable.



It's not our decision to determine how he uses his time, but it's ok to have an opinion. And I can pretty much guarantee that any business consultant would agree that writing a rant against customers and competitors is a bad use of time, whereas chatting with your dad is not. It's not so much that Vik can't do what he did. It's more that it just isn't very smart. From pretty much any perspective.


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## BlacKat Guitars (Sep 23, 2013)

MaxOfMetal said:


> That's the point I was making, he's _always_ at work.



He is also his own boss so other people don't have to tell him how he should manage his time. While facebook rant sucks, so does telling builder (who already works a lot on guitars) to stop being on facebook and get to work. Seriously, if customer would start lecturing me about time management I'd just cancel his order or do it slower on purpose .* <----- JOKE, I don't delay builds on purpose and never cancelled customer's order. *

Whole being always at work thing is a common approach but I completely disagree. Imo it's important to learn to leave work behind from time to time to get some balance, inspiration from outside world, reload batteries and so on. In the end it turns out that it's more efficient that way than being tired all the time.


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## flint757 (Sep 23, 2013)

I think people would stop pestering builders if they weren't always behind their estimated schedules/finish dates. If VIK is also pushing peoples orders back for 'special customers' I think there is plenty of reason to complain by some of these individuals. In general there is some right to complain about time management when you drop a couple grand on something and the timeline is already ridiculous. That is the case in most industries/jobs and even when they are wrong the guys paying the bill (the customers) are always right. 

Ultimately I agree that everyone deserves down time and how that time spent is no ones business, but lets not turn that to mean something it doesn't. If I were ordering a guitar from a builder he could watch a movie every night, take a couple days off, go on vacation, whatever and I honestly wouldn't care assuming the quoted schedule took all of that into consideration. 

Doing what he is doing on facebook is a waste of time because of the content not the amount of time itself. And when you're 'your own boss' the customers, shareholders, etc. become your boss. If you're in a business of any kind there is always someone you have to answer to, unless you're okay with having no customers or loans/credit.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 23, 2013)

BlacKat Guitars said:


> Seriously, if customer would start lecturing me about time management I'd just cancel his order or do it slower on purpose



Seriously? Talk about shitty and unprofessional. You're not building guitars out of the kindness of your heart, someone is paying you. If you can't take the heat, don't be a custom builder. Just make in-stocks. 

This attitude of luthiers bestowing instruments to the player needs a reality check.


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## Jzbass25 (Sep 23, 2013)

abandonist said:


> $2,000 US for a bow is cork sniffing.
> 
> You can easily get the job done for few hundred dollars.
> 
> All that extra cash is so you can talk about it at the symphony...



I spent around $500 for my CF bow when I was playing in symphonies and philharmonics and this other guy spent around $5k, when he tried my bow he was like wow... this is really nice... and I could see the buyers remorse set in lol.


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## User Name (Sep 23, 2013)

BlacKat Guitars said:


> Seriously, if customer would start lecturing me about time management I'd just cancel his order or do it slower on purpose .



i dont really like to comment on stuff like this, but this comment right here made me automatically think of you as an insanely massive prick. no matter what side your on, i agree with max. that is VERY unprofessional.


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## BlacKat Guitars (Sep 23, 2013)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Seriously? Talk about shitty and unprofessional. You're not building guitars out of the kindness of your heart, someone is paying you. If you can't take the heat, don't be a custom builder.



I'm taking heat quite well and currently work approximately 14 hours a day (including saturdays and sundays) or more because situation requires that. However if I decide to take 2 hours off and go with my daughter to the playground, I'd be really pissed off if my customer would start lecturing me that I'm wasting my time doing this or that instead of working on his build. 

Edit: To make my point of view clearer so people don't see me as big prick:
Customer is paying and he has the right to receive his ordered instrument in reasonable timeframe but it's my task to manage my time in such way that I can deliver. 

It also means that when something happens that could potentially affect my work it also shouldn't be customer's concern. Baby born, moving to new house, whole family died in nuclear explosion? Not a good excuse for delayed build and not customer's concern, he's paying and I should do everything I can to deliver.

Again, I'm not advocating fb rant from this thread. I just hate this kind of attitude:


Kiwimetal101 said:


> Exactly, I don't understand why people arnt more pissed about this, its obvious he's sitting there watching for any comment to pop up to be able to react to it instantly, while the tools sit there collecting non guitar build dust...



Maybe it's a touchy subject for me because I spend so much time in shop myself, but even though ViK mentioned my friends from Skervesen in his rant and I find it unfair (so although I like him, it puts me on "the other side"), but he seems like hard working guy and even if he wastes few hours on FB from time to time, he is also probably working on guitars most of his time already. Telling him to work more is as rude as the rant that started this discussion.

It's not that much different from going in discussion with mods on discussion boards about their work (why did you ban me, why didn't you ban him etc). 




User Name said:


> i dont really like to comment on stuff like this, but this comment right here made me automatically think of you as an insanely massive prick. no matter what side your on, i agree with max. that is VERY unprofessional.



It was a joke, I guess I should have put more of these: 

Probably wrote it all wrong because English is not my first language.


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## flint757 (Sep 23, 2013)

I had 3 separate projects to do at work last Friday and I also had to take inventory. Late morning, early afternoon a man came in pushing his weight a bit because he was going to 'spend' a lot of money. He was rude and bossy, but ultimately we had to assume he was a serious customer even if it meant a few hours lost. I personally wanted to tell him to go .... off because he had an air of arrogance about him, was wasting what little time in the day I had and honestly felt like a tire kicker (window watcher). We just grin and bear it though, sometimes there's a fish on the line and sometimes there isn't. I ended up having to work 5hrs after work to catch up. 

Moral of the story is even when the customer is a prick you pretend he isn't and either indulge or at least pretend to indulge. 

No customers, no revenue, no business.


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## Watty (Sep 23, 2013)

BlacKat Guitars said:


> It was a joke, I guess I should have put more of these:
> 
> Probably wrote it all wrong because English is not my first language.



I get that it was meant to be a joke, but please realize that it had nothing to do with the language issue and everything to do with the fact that sarcasm (especially when worded "correctly") does NOT translate into text. 



flint757 said:


> Moral of the story is even when the customer is a prick you pretend he isn't and either indulge or at least pretend to indulge.
> 
> No customers, no revenue, no business.



Amen.

And to the time table issue, I think it's less about the delay and more about the apparent lack of care associated with it. Not only a Vik issue, but how hard is it really to put out a status update each week (per instrument) with:

1) Current task being worked on.
2) Next task on the list.
3) Tentative ETA based on 1 and 2.

Even if it falls behind the ETA, at least you know it's getting worked on and is not sitting for lack of the luthier's focus or his decision to work on other builds in the cue that may or may not have been given priority. Now, obviously Vik could be doing this through email (as could others) but given the general growing discontent with the progress from multiple parties, I'd wager that's not the case. 

Budding luthiers take note that we're more concerned with knowing what's going on that (and potentially getting our instruments slightly late) than being in the dark until the situation escalates into discontent with the builder...especially given what BlacKat jokingly notes above.


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## Choop (Sep 23, 2013)

flint757 said:


> I had 3 separate projects to do at work last Friday and I also had to take inventory. Late morning, early afternoon a man came in pushing his weight a bit because he was going to 'spend' a lot of money. He was rude and bossy, but ultimately we had to assume he was a serious customer even if it meant a few hours lost. I personally wanted to tell him to go .... off because he had an air of arrogance about him, was wasting what little time in the day I had and honestly felt like a tire kicker (window watcher). We just grin and bear it though, sometimes there's a fish on the line and sometimes there isn't. I ended up having to work 5hrs after work to catch up.
> 
> Moral of the story is even when the customer is a prick you pretend he isn't and either indulge or at least pretend to indulge.
> 
> No customers, no revenue, no business.



Are you your own boss? I think everybody already knows the whole "the customer is always right" rhetoric.


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## abandonist (Sep 23, 2013)

We had an 8-top call and try to make a reservation for 10:30 on Friday night. We normally start to shut down at 10. I told them this, but that I would be open to keeping the restaurant open for them since they're a large party and we could make a couple hundred dollars off them. The woman making the reservation then asked about our tasting menu (6 courses, the most expensive option) with a wine pairing, so I explained that evening's menu and some of the wines we had selected. She said they'd like to do that, there might even be 10 of them, and would be there promptly at 10:30. I said that's great and was really happy through service. 

They proceeded to show up at 10:30, wait another 40 minutes for 2 stragglers, and only ordered a couple cocktails and plates. No tasting, no wine pairing, total ticket was around $250. If they had done what they said it would have been nearly 1000. I was pretty pissed. At the end, they asked to talk to me about the restaurant, and our ideas. I bit it and said we'd always stay open if they had a party of 6 or more. It's the hospitality business - that's what we do.

However, I once had a customer at the bar say "faggot" with anger behind it, and I promptly told him his meal and drinks were on the house and that he should leave. 

Anyway, the point is that everything is circumstantial when it comes to customers.


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## BlacKat Guitars (Sep 23, 2013)

Watty said:


> I get that it was meant to be a joke, but please realize that it had nothing to do with the language issue and everything to do with the fact that sarcasm (especially when worded "correctly") does NOT translate into text.



Language issue is actually a joke too (referencing ViKs language barrer raised earlier in this thread). Maybe I'm just to sleepy and my jokes suck. Still better than hitman joke .

Regarding my customer/builder mutual respect and overall relationship. I had one angry customer (delayed order) who was pissed off with delay and decided to subscribe me to 20 gay related newsletters and tried to place ad on craigslist that I want to star in gay porn (as "Tomasz Dicksucker", nice!). 

I can be very effective with finding out identity of people who try to do something not nice to me online and this time it was easy too. It was first time where I really wanted to just send customers deposit back and forget about whole thing. In the end I did nothing. Shipped his guitar, kept being polite on e-mails. 

Also if you think that you have to organize builders time, it means that you've probably chosen wrong builder.


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## Watty (Sep 23, 2013)

abandonist said:


> However, I once had a customer at the bar say "faggot" with anger behind it, and I promptly told him his meal and drinks were on the house and that he should leave.
> 
> Anyway, the point is that everything is circumstantial when it comes to customers.



To the first; well done sir.

To the second; I can agree with that.


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## thrsher (Sep 23, 2013)

for me personally, this is how i feel and it shouldn't be like this either

like ive stated, im just your average joe player in an average local band. i feel like if i complain too much to vik or "bother" him because my build isnt getting done or worked on, that work wont get done on my build. i feel like i have to tip toe around and mind my P's and Q's and thats not right. at the end of the day, my concern is my business between Vik and I and i am owed a certain level of service. im not here to question his personal life. sitting back for 26 months now, i have never felt like my order with him was a priority or of any importance especially now i feel as though his head should be down and just complete the build. i personal like his business model. the forum updates (which more or less has been abandoned for a good year now id say) i also think building a guitar in a week was a BAD idea. you built a guitar in a week and im still siting back 26 months waiting ( fully paid) for no real good reason and just watch more and more builds get completed. its not my fault your guitars are pulling alot more money these days than maybe whati paid and dont get me wrong, i still paid more than i have spent on any guitar to date. at what point do i get the customer service and attention i am owed as a customer. and truly, i really don't badger the guy, ive sent him a total of 5 emails the whole time id say with the occasional chat on FB. the only time i would email would be to get an update and i really on started addressing concern for a lack of attention to my build towards the end of last year.


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## flint757 (Sep 23, 2013)

Choop said:


> Are you your own boss? I think everybody already knows the whole "the customer is always right" rhetoric.


 
No, I'm contract so whomever I'm working for at the time is my boss so to speak, but a lot of my work is with their customers.

People certainly should know that by now, but several posts in this thread lead me to believe otherwise. 



abandonist said:


> ...
> Anyway, the point is that everything is circumstantial when it comes to customers.


 
Fair enough. You handled it very well either way and that is the main point to take away from it. Generally, in my experience, the customer is only wrong when he is costing you money be it theft, scaring off customers, ruining reputation, etc. otherwise you indulge.


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## Hollowway (Sep 23, 2013)

abandonist said:


> We had an 8-top call and try to make a reservation for 10:30 on Friday night. We normally start to shut down at 10. I told them this, but that I would be open to keeping the restaurant open for them since they're a large party and we could make a couple hundred dollars off them. The woman making the reservation then asked about our tasting menu (6 courses, the most expensive option) with a wine pairing, so I explained that evening's menu and some of the wines we had selected. She said they'd like to do that, there might even be 10 of them, and would be there promptly at 10:30. I said that's great and was really happy through service.
> 
> They proceeded to show up at 10:30, wait another 40 minutes for 2 stragglers, and only ordered a couple cocktails and plates. No tasting, no wine pairing, total ticket was around $250. If they had done what they said it would have been nearly 1000. I was pretty pissed. At the end, they asked to talk to me about the restaurant, and our ideas. I bit it and said we'd always stay open if they had a party of 6 or more. It's the hospitality business - that's what we do.
> 
> ...



Man, I totally agree with everything you wrote. That is exactly how I would have felt/handled it. That's incredibly rude for that party of 8 to do that, and people like that piss me off. But like you say, you gotta suck it up. And I am so totally coming in for the tasting menu if I can get out to that coast.


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## narad (Sep 23, 2013)

flint757 said:


> Moral of the story is even when the customer is a prick you pretend he isn't and either indulge or at least pretend to indulge.



And that's precisely why Vik Guitars probably isn't going to be getting any orders from Robbins Guitars anytime soon.


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## Watty (Sep 23, 2013)

narad said:


> And that's precisely why Vik Guitars probably isn't going to be getting any orders from Robbins Guitars anytime soon.



Did you mean something different by this? I'm pretty sure any luthier would just build herself whatever guitar she wanted.

In the end, Tyler won't have taken any business away from Vik as he himself did that more effectively than any external party could have.




thrsher said:


> for me personally, this is how i feel and it shouldn't be like this either
> 
> like ive stated, im just your average joe player in an average local band. i feel like if i complain too much to vik or "bother" him because my build isnt getting done or worked on, that work wont get done on my build. i feel like i have to tip toe around and mind my P's and Q's and thats not right. at the end of the day, my concern is my business between Vik and I and i am owed a certain level of service. im not here to question his personal life. sitting back for 26 months now, i have never felt like my order with him was a priority or of any importance especially now i feel as though his head should be down and just complete the build. i personal like his business model. the forum updates (which more or less has been abandoned for a good year now id say) i also think building a guitar in a week was a BAD idea. you built a guitar in a week and im still siting back 26 months waiting ( fully paid) for no real good reason and just watch more and more builds get completed. its not my fault your guitars are pulling alot more money these days than maybe whati paid and dont get me wrong, i still paid more than i have spent on any guitar to date. at what point do i get the customer service and attention i am owed as a customer. and truly, i really don't badger the guy, ive sent him a total of 5 emails the whole time id say with the occasional chat on FB. the only time i would email would be to get an update and i really on started addressing concern for a lack of attention to my build towards the end of last year.



And I feel for you man, it's not a good situation to be in and I hope that he's able to crank your guitar out soon. Especially given that it seems he's currently working on finishing up a run that was put in a significant amount of time after yours.


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## abandonist (Sep 23, 2013)

thrsher said:


> for me personally, this is how i feel and it shouldn't be like this either
> 
> like ive stated, im just your average joe player in an average local band. i feel like if i complain too much to vik or "bother" him because my build isnt getting done or worked on, that work wont get done on my build. i feel like i have to tip toe around and mind my P's and Q's and thats not right. at the end of the day, my concern is my business between Vik and I and i am owed a certain level of service. im not here to question his personal life. sitting back for 26 months now, i have never felt like my order with him was a priority or of any importance especially now i feel as though his head should be down and just complete the build. i personal like his business model. the forum updates (which more or less has been abandoned for a good year now id say) i also think building a guitar in a week was a BAD idea. you built a guitar in a week and im still siting back 26 months waiting ( fully paid) for no real good reason and just watch more and more builds get completed. its not my fault your guitars are pulling alot more money these days than maybe whati paid and dont get me wrong, i still paid more than i have spent on any guitar to date. at what point do i get the customer service and attention i am owed as a customer. and truly, i really don't badger the guy, ive sent him a total of 5 emails the whole time id say with the occasional chat on FB. the only time i would email would be to get an update and i really on started addressing concern for a lack of attention to my build towards the end of last year.



This is why I've selected the 2 custom builders I've used very carefully. I know delays are going to happen, and the one I'm waiting on is a bit behind, but I'm talking a couple months, not 26. That's just unacceptable. Famous dude wants one of your builds? Of course you're going to bump that up the queue. But over a year of delays? Not ok. I'd be asking for a couple hundred bucks refunded.


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## darren (Sep 23, 2013)

abandonist said:


> However, I once had a customer at the bar say "faggot" with anger behind it, and I promptly told him his meal and drinks were on the house and that he should leave.



What restaurant do you work at? If i'm ever down your way, i'd come by and have a big meal and leave you a big tip based on this alone. Well done.


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## User Name (Sep 23, 2013)

now im 100% sketched out by EVER trying to get a custom guitar built


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## Watty (Sep 23, 2013)

User Name said:


> now im 100% sketched out by EVER trying to get a custom guitar built



Don't be too put off by these situations, you just need to be smart about your initial contact and how you feel about their competency and accountability.


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## thrsher (Sep 23, 2013)

User Name said:


> now im 100% sketched out by EVER trying to get a custom guitar built



delays are inevitable other than carvin, no company as meet there times by witinh even 6 months other than kxk. when he did 7s short run, he gave a &#61185;&#61185;&#61185;6 month estimate and hit that pretty much spot on.


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## narad (Sep 23, 2013)

Watty said:


> Did you mean something different by this? I'm pretty sure any luthier would just build herself whatever guitar she wanted..



It was a joke but trying to emphasize that all this "customer is always right" type of talk is a little misplaced when the people he's ranting at are the luthiers who copy designs. Those are the people he's "mistreating" - not his customers. Feel free to judge or not place an order, but it's poor PR Vik's guilty of, not poor customer service. And I'm liking all these build updates all the drama seems to have prompted!


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 23, 2013)

narad said:


> It was a joke but trying to emphasize that all this "customer is always right" type of talk is a little misplaced when the people he's ranting at are the luthiers who copy designs. Those are the people he's "mistreating" - not his customers. Feel free to judge or not place an order, but it's poor PR Vik's guilty of, not poor customer service. And I'm liking all these build updates all the drama seems to have prompted!



Have you read thrshr's posts?


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## abandonist (Sep 23, 2013)

darren said:


> What restaurant do you work at? If i'm ever down your way, i'd come by and have a big meal and leave you a big tip based on this alone. Well done.



I own a place called The Owl in Greenville, SC.

We've won some awards (Best Chef's America! WTF???) and gotten some press, but we're just a couple jerks trying their best to do a really good job.



I'll say that the custom I ordered from OAF was delivery promptly on time, and with extensive contact. Tom was great.


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## narad (Sep 23, 2013)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Have you read thrshr's posts?



Yes, and I can sympathize because those are exactly the same grievances I have with Vik. Similar wait times, the same annoying builds that magically popped up in between, and we're somehow right there in agreement even about the intangible aspects of our builds. I won't lie - "Vik-in-a-week" still doesn't sit well with me - as it only makes my "Vik-in-80-weeks" seem all that more preposterous. And I don't understand why new guitars were built for Messe when those could have been our guitars. 

But first, all the customer is always right comments were geared toward the ranting. And my response is to them.

Second, it sucks, but it's not hugely out of the norm. The amount of luthiers that hit their estimates is pitiful. I have to give Ken Lawrence props, he's slow - 24-36 months - but he says outright that's exactly how long it's going to take. Ha - Dan @ Oni quoted me 5 years! So you can take strategy 1 of being really conservative with your estimates, which I prefer, or you can be optimistic. 

Sometimes this doesn't matter. You're sitting around waiting for a bit longer but nothing really hinges on it. For me, the end of my deadline fell in line with my moving to Japan for 4 months, so I thought, how convenient, I'll just have it shipped there. Of course, that didn't happen, and I needed to buy a guitar there I hadn't planned on. +1 to finding out about the ToneZone/Air Norton combo, -1 for Vik's estimates and an unwanted $3k+ expenditure on a J-custom.

So I think my point is that having builds pop up in queue, having your delivery estimates not met? It's not stellar. And I'll not hesitate to explain to anyone asking about my order to expect a much longer build time. But poor customer service...eh...I'm reluctant to call it that, as it's merely an estimate. A damn bad estimate, but it's not the same as neglecting customers, messing up specs and things of that sort. I magically got a brazilian board upgrade on New Years, that was pretty cool?

You know who else missed their build estimates with me? Ola Strandberg. We all think he's awesome, and rightly so. If you're going to condemn one guy for it, well, I feel like you have to condemn both.


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## abandonist (Sep 23, 2013)

I definitely condemn anyone who misses a delivery by more than a couple months. It's absolute bullshit and bad business. I don't know why people continue to support nonsense like this as if them paying for a guitar to be built is some favor from the builder.

Call these ............s out on their horseshit.


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## glassmoon0fo (Sep 23, 2013)

Was your build over 26 months? And I'm sure there were't a whole run of guitars ordered after and completed before yours. That's what's the main issue with these builders that's getting to everyone, and Ola isn't AS guilty, so he doesn't get AS much guilt over it. On a personal note, I'm a hot minute down the line on my KxK build, and though I don't even pretend to know what's going on with Rob and his shop (mostly because he's not telling ), it's disheartening seeing all those in-stock builds coming out month by month while there are three runs ahead of mine that aren't really moving at all. I've gotten lots of insight as to the situation, but nothing really satisfying.

I guess it all comes down to what you can put up with. I was a little bummed about the fact that I probably wont see an update for at least another year or two, but then I saw a homeless guy and his son sleeping on the steps outside the hotel I was staying at, and now I'm good again. Perspective keeps the bitching at bay.


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## Watty (Sep 23, 2013)

glassmoon0fo said:


> I guess it all comes down to what you can put up with. I was a little bummed about the fact that I probably wont see an update for at least another year or two, but then I saw a homeless guy and his son sleeping on the steps outside the hotel I was staying at, and now I'm good again. Perspective keeps the bitching at bay.



Perspective helps keep things, well, in perspective, but I don't necessarily think it precludes you from being disappointed with how things are progressing. Given how much life can change in that amount of time, unless you're a career musician, seems crazy to wait that long. 

If you come out the other side with the same optimism, good on you.


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## thrsher (Sep 23, 2013)

note the dates in this email. 7 months now. this is bad customer service to me. giving a bunk timeline and minimal follow ups there after. follow through is the other half to customer service is my book. there was also a similar email like this around dec 2012 telling me my guitar was 2 months away from completion

i believe as of today my guitar is either awaiting clear coating or is done, then fretting and final assembly. is left. dates are clearly documented in the bread thread if you are actually curious of the timeline of how my build went. 
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: ViK custom order

Hey, Brandon!

You have a point here, I agree and apologize. There many reasons for everything but those are not excuses anyway. Would it work if I have it ready by the end of April? I'd do the woodwork by the Messe and coating after it.

On Mar 14, 2013, at 5:16 PM, brandon moran <[email protected]> wrote:

Hey Vik,


How are things? I just want to take a moment to get a good status of the build. it has been quite some time for an update with this project. it seems like more and more things keep coming up and my build keeps getting pushed to the side. it is very.disheartening to feel this way, being pushed aside. Artist builds, serial projects, Messe, and group runs, some near me and others much much after me. .I would just like to know what your timeline will be for the remainder of the build. i am paid in full so we do have that out of the way as well. hope all is well.


Brandon


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## flint757 (Sep 23, 2013)

narad said:


> But first, all the customer is always right comments were geared toward the ranting. And my response is to them.


 
I brought it up and it was geared towards the conversation here and the way VIK and others are treating people who disagree with them.



narad said:


> So I think my point is that having builds pop up in queue, having your delivery estimates not met? It's not stellar. And I'll not hesitate to explain to anyone asking about my order to expect a much longer build time. But poor customer service...eh...I'm reluctant to call it that, as it's merely an estimate. A damn bad estimate, but it's not the same as neglecting customers, messing up specs and things of that sort. I magically got a brazilian board upgrade on New Years, that was pretty cool?


 
It is poor customer service. Just because it's 'normal' doesn't make it less so. It just means you have less options for an honest luthier. At any job I have ever worked if I was told to do something in say 2 weeks or I told them it'd be ready in 2 weeks and it took me a month or so I'd be fired. Not keeping the client informed is also poor customer service. The bar shouldn't be lowered because so many suck at PR.



narad said:


> You know who else missed their build estimates with me? Ola Strandberg. We all think he's awesome, and rightly so. If you're going to condemn one guy for it, well, I feel like you have to condemn both.


 
Nobody said anyone else didn't have a dirty track record. My focus on VIK is both because he is the focus of this thread and thrsher recently posted his situation with him.


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## abandonist (Sep 23, 2013)

glassmoon0fo said:


> Was your build over 26 months? And I'm sure there were't a whole run of guitars ordered after and completed before yours. That's what's the main issue with these builders that's getting to everyone, and Ola isn't AS guilty, so he doesn't get AS much guilt over it. On a personal note, I'm a hot minute down the line on my KxK build, and though I don't even pretend to know what's going on with Rob and his shop (mostly because he's not telling ), it's disheartening seeing all those in-stock builds coming out month by month while there are three runs ahead of mine that aren't really moving at all. I've gotten lots of insight as to the situation, but nothing really satisfying.
> 
> I guess it all comes down to what you can put up with. I was a little bummed about the fact that I probably wont see an update for at least another year or two, but then I saw a homeless guy and his son sleeping on the steps outside the hotel I was staying at, and now I'm good again. Perspective keeps the bitching at bay.




This is apologitic nonsense. If someone quotes you 8 months, and then exceeds that by a year, you're justifiably pissed. You should ask for a partial refund and expect them to get their ....ing shit together. I'm astounded at the willingness to let luthiers slide by orders of magnitude above and beyond reasonable delays. It's amateur hour when it comes to running a business. Hell, if I'm even an hour late running the restaurant for a catering I'm getting screamed at. Take that in to consideration when you're giving these people a free pass.

They should give you Real World estimates at how long your guitar will take to build - not a best-case scenario that happened that one time...


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## glassmoon0fo (Sep 24, 2013)

You mad man? Lol c'mon, I just told you it's not a big enough deal to me. I'll get my guitar or I'll get my money back, so I'm happy. Put it this way: in the last two years I've lost my dad 24 hours befor getting to see him for the first time in a year, watched my mom battle late stage breast cancer not two months after and go to work almost every day through 6 rounds of chemo and radiation so she could keep her insurance policy, JUST so me and my sister wouldn't be left dry if she didn't pull through, almost ended an 8 year relationship and engagement over a coworker (her) and a 19 year old home wrecker (me), and nearly lost my house because of shitty paperwork. A guitar that I probably shouldn't be buying in the first place isn't top of the list when it comes to priorities. If you think it's the villages job to keep these luthiers in check, accept more of my apologetic billshit. You'll just have to bitch enough for the both of us I guess.


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## abandonist (Sep 24, 2013)

While unfortunate, none of that has to do with the build time of a guitar...


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## ducer (Sep 24, 2013)

Customs, customs everywhere...


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## asfeir (Sep 24, 2013)

Concerning build time estimates and Vik in particular, let's not forget that his success is relatively recent and he got a lot of build orders in the last 3-4 years (correct me If I'm wrong), and he had to close his wait list early 2013.. He maybe under estimated some build times or over estimated the pace at which he will work, but he will learn from this surely. I'm not defending or anything but this is a logical thing and you can't expect him to be ready to manage all these orders now.


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## glassmoon0fo (Sep 24, 2013)

But it does have to do with your knock against my "apologetic nonsense." There's always another prospective, as far as I can see mine isn't doing you harm, and that's what that post is about. I think you're smart enough to figure that out.


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## BouhZik (Sep 24, 2013)

Watty said:


> you just need to be smart about your initial contact.



What do you mean by being smart about the initial contact?
Thanks


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## Kullerbytta (Sep 24, 2013)

Shit, that's pretty damn embarassing... I can imagine that the founder/owner of ViK don't feel too good about himself.
While I understand his point to some extent I'd never go public with it on a site like FB... 
Verdict: Brainfart.


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## capoeiraesp (Sep 24, 2013)

Just spent some time in a very poor favela in Brasil. 

Delays in custom guitar builds = first world problems.


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## Watty (Sep 24, 2013)

BouhZik said:


> What do you mean by being smart about the initial contact?
> Thanks



I mean that how a luthier "treats" you right from the get go (first call or email) can be a good indicator of how they'll conduct the overall transaction. If they don't sound welcoming and nice, odds are it'll stay that way until the guitar's delivered. If they answer all your questions with one word or don't provide a lot of information, odds are you won't get much in the way of updates later.

et cetera.

Robbins was a perfect example of the "good businessman" insofar as his communication was concerned initially. He seemed:

1) Happy that I'd contacted him over anyone else.
2) Interested in the specs I'd laid down.
3) Generally invested in keeping me a customer after the details were ironed out.

These "clues" and others should make you feel good about dropping your money into their work, and if apprehension is your first feeling....you probably shouldn't do it.


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## ormsby guitars (Sep 24, 2013)

Watty said:


> I mean that how a luthier "treats" you right from the get go (first call or email) can be a good indicator of how they'll conduct the overall transaction. If they don't sound welcoming and nice, odds are it'll stay that way until the guitar's delivered. If they answer all your questions with one word or don't provide a lot of information, odds are you won't get much in the way of updates later.
> 
> et cetera.
> 
> ...




How many luthiers give off that vibe and then turn to shit six months in?


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## Watty (Sep 24, 2013)

ormsby guitars said:


> How many luthiers give off that vibe and then turn to shit six months in?



Fair point, I guess I've just been lucky. Still, it's a good up front indicator to try and help weed those out where it's immediately apparent they probably aren't interested in being genuinely invested in their customers.

You've obviously proven you're not in that group and I applaud it.


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## ormsby guitars (Sep 24, 2013)

Watty said:


> Fair point, I guess I've just been lucky. Still, it's a good up front indicator to try and help weed those out where it's immediately apparent they probably aren't interested in being genuinely invested in their customers.
> 
> You've obviously proven you're not in that group and I applaud it.



Actually, I do the opposite.

I have to.

I send a cut and paste email back with a quote, often 1-4 weeks after they submitted it. If they've sent an email asking where their quote is, I do it straight away, otherwise I just batch them together when I get time. I dont get much time. Hell, visiting guitar forums is my little guilty pleasure, for ten minutes of the day.

Those that are keen, then have to wait until I take orders again. At the moment, that's February... maybe.

Those that are impatient, let it be known. It sux to lose a potential client, but at the same time those impatient types can be a massive drain on a business. And that can affect your entire output. I had a very demanding customer some time ago. I had a melt down. I had to take 10 days off. I accomodated EVERY spec change, even after cutting wood. They threw money at me to jump the queue. Promised European tours, albums, everything, if I can push it forwards. Daily emails or phone calls first thing in the morning asking for a break down of everything Id planned for that day. I accomodated every little request, need for info, rescheduling builds because they "have the day off, and want updates today, not tomorrow". Or worse, "I have the day off today, and it would mean a lot to me to visit your workshop and just hang out all day while I watch you work". This effected my output, and ultimately I dropped the ball with another customer that was being patient. (for the record, when the hours were tallied up, Id spent close to three times to amount of time on the demanding guitar, than I normally would for one at that spec level... thats two more guitars that DIDNT get finished)

My orders stop when I get to 65 guitars. Its not the number of guitars that stops the orders, it's the percentage of high maintenance clients. I dont say that in a negative way, hell, IM a high maintenance client to some! But I cant give everyone an hour of time, every week, to chat about guitars. Even an hour a month is 65 hours (1.5 weeks of the month on the phone, not doing actual work). So some guys use facebook to chat, thinking that is not intruding on 'work time'. It is, Im ordering, scheduling, replying to (some) emails. I do 8-9 hours a day of workshop time, then 3-6 hours office time. Ive had to stop adding clients to my personal facebook. It's not just current clients, its the older ones too, wanting to comment on some work I did for a new client. I LOVE their loyalty. But I cant keep up.

Im curt. Im to the point. I dont show too much enthusiasm in the initial contact, simply because Ive found that creates dialog, and conversations, I simply cant keep up on. Id rather spend an hour with a chisel, than an hour on email. Most quotes DONT go ahead. That's normal. Not everyone can afford a custom. Not everyone was really all that keen. Some are just tyre kickers. Some have plans for the future. All cool in my books.

If they go ahead, THEN Im excited. But I still have to tell people to 'calm down'. Keep all your ideas written down, but dont email them every time you have a thought. Let's discuss it AFTER you've thought about it for a month or two (usually they change their mind again).

You've got to be the sales guy, the scheduling guy, the confirmation of specs guy, the woodworker, the pickup winder, the finish expert. You have to be a little bit of everything, not too much of one, not too much of another.

Having said that, ten years in, Id rather do this as a career for NO money, than ANYTHING else for any amount of money


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## Watty (Sep 24, 2013)

ormsby guitars said:


> You've got to be the sales guy, the scheduling guy, the confirmation of specs guy, the woodworker, the pickup winder, the finish expert. You have to be a little bit of everything, not too much of one, not too much of another.
> 
> Having said that, ten years in, Id rather do this as a career for NO money, than ANYTHING else for any amount of money



Well, then at least insofar as I've seen, you manage to "not" do what we've discussed while still receiving stellar reviews and having to deal with (at least the appearance of) less public groaning.

*foot, meet mouth*

Regardless, admirable sentiment there for sure.


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## Erockomania (Sep 25, 2013)

ormsby guitars said:


> Actually, I do the opposite.
> 
> I have to.
> 
> ...



All potential custom guitar clients should read this before ordering. It makes a ton of sense. Hell, I'm guilty of a few things in that list. 


On another note, I thought this was kinda funny. Vik posted this on FB... (look familiar?) haha


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## Hollowway (Sep 25, 2013)

^ Vik ordered a guitar from Robbins with the other part of the billet?!


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## BouhZik (Sep 25, 2013)

@Watty, ormsby guitars, very interresting points of views. Thank to you both.


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## ASoC (Sep 25, 2013)

In reference to Vik and the way he handled this, I think it was a typically human thing to do but it wasn't professional.

This has left a sour taste in my mouth regarding Vik, I used to admire his work and had him on the list of luthiers I would have liked to get a quote from when the time came to get a custom started. However, because of his manner and apparent customer service issues raised in this thread, I think it is unlikely I will ever look into options with him.

The good news is that this whole ordeal has turned me on the Robbins Guitars, and given me a whole new company/luthier to consider/do research on.


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## deathmaster213 (Nov 5, 2013)

shadowvault said:


> ...
> 
> Take a look at this guitar Waghorn Guitars ~ Sauria S and dont tell me doesnt look like a vik just with different curves.There is no parthenogenesis so everyone starts from something.Dont tell me Vik hasnt made any replicas in his life...Also Most of the superstrat type of models look 90% the same.You change some curves and BOOM new guitar shape.
> 
> ...



I can assure you the Sauria S is not copied from or based on a Vik. Tom Waghorn designed the Sauria from scratch, on paper. I watched him do it. However, what was in his head when he designed it, I cannot tell you. I can guess based on his influences and personal tastes.

The Sauria S was conceptually designed by the customer who ordered it. He specifically asked for the Sauria shape, but about a quarter of an inch smaller all the way round. We did this, then tweaked it to keep it balanced and not too thin in places etc. We're happy to do this with all of our designs, there is a thread on here somewhere about another modified Sauria build - the customer himself collected various design elements he liked and asked us to modify our shape to include some.

So - is anyone surprised that the Sauria S - an offset body design comprised mostly of curves - looks like another offset body design but "with different curves"?

As someone else pointed out on this thread many pages ago there are only so many ways to design a functional ergonomic solid body electric guitar (within a 'style') - and with the sheer number of builders around some of them are going to look pretty similar! Influences exist, and if I grew up loving a particular guitars shape and aesthetics, why now would I design something I don't like? It's probably going to be similar.

When I formed my first band I was really really into Slayer, The Haunted and Vader. Three guesses what my band sounded like (or would have sounded like if we were any good  )


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## Pikka Bird (Nov 5, 2013)

flint757 said:


> It is poor customer service. Just because it's 'normal' doesn't make it less so. ... The bar shouldn't be lowered because so many suck at PR.


That's how I feel exactly. Tangentially related: I am honestly very surprised to learn that an aeon-long wait are becoming the standard with some in the business. Once a build starts I feel it shouldn't realistically take more than, say, a handful of months to complete for a build with bare bones specs. A year is _sort of_ reasonable for more elaborate builds, depending on how a guy runs his business and how many builds he takes on per batch.



deathmaster213 said:


> So - is anyone surprised that the Sauria S - an offset body design comprised mostly of curves - looks like another offset body design but "with different curves"?


I personally think both ViK's Duality and the Sauria are both more similar to the Maxxxfly than they are to each other. One is different in one way, the other is different in another. (I don't have a clue about the chronology of these models, BTW)




deathmaster213 said:


> When I formed my first band I was really really into Slayer, The Haunted and Vader. Three guesses what my band sounded like (or would have sounded like if we were any good  )


Dido?



glassmoon0fo said:


> If you think it's the villages job to keep these luthiers in check, accept more of my apologetic billshit. You'll just have to bitch enough for the both of us I guess.


I am truly sympathetic for your situation and I can easily see how that puts things into perspective, but you also have to remember that it applies only to _you_, and I hope you're not honestly shocked that people complain about waiting a year+ longer than their build estimate. We can't all be "fortunate" enough to have deeply traumatizing tragedies befall us to let us be so lenient (hope you understand my point, I'm not making a light of your situation).

My family has seen our share of tragedies within the span of a few years, and for a while I wasn't hung up on the little things, but that passed and now I wouldn't stand for it anymore. No other business that I know of gets this kind of leeway.


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