# Insane stuff going on in London right now



## hairychris (May 22, 2013)

BBC News - Man dead in suspected Woolwich terror attack

About a mile from me. Crazy, bad crazy.


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## liamh (May 22, 2013)

Awful.
Such unfortunate timing aswell, I bet Nigel Farage is feeling extremely vindicated atm


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## watson503 (May 22, 2013)




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## Genome (May 22, 2013)

Rumours circling that he was beheaded, couple of eyewitness Twitter accounts saying as such, can't quite figure it out from that video.

Bearing in mind this was in broad daylight at 2pm on a busy street, opposite a primary school. 

WTF.


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## BucketheadRules (May 22, 2013)

Horrible.


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## Xaios (May 22, 2013)

This is pretty horrible, but I couldn't but  at the fact the government's emergency response committee is named Cobra.

This takes a special kind of crazy, though. My prayers to the soldier and his family.


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## Randy (May 22, 2013)

How did nobody just ram this guy with a ....ing car?


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## hairychris (May 22, 2013)

Xaios said:


> This is pretty horrible, but I couldn't but  at the fact the government's emergency response committee is named Cobra.



COBRA = Cabinet Briefing Room A

But yeah, shit name.


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## MontaraMike (May 22, 2013)

SICK This world is INSANE! WTF?


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## Winspear (May 22, 2013)

Nuts..
What I don't understand is why there are just people standing around near the killer and having him talk at their camera??


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## ShiftKey (May 22, 2013)

Why do the nutters in Britain wait till the summer to come out of the woodwork?

Edited:- removed the rant


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## Genome (May 22, 2013)

EtherealEntity said:


> Nuts..
> What I don't understand is why there are just people standing around near the killer and having him talk at their camera??



Precisely what I was thinking.

If I was at the scene and had just witnessed this guy attack someone with a knife and meat cleaver, the last thing on my mind would be to stop, whip out my smartphone and let the guy talk into it while he holds the murder weapon in his blooded hands.

What's more, it's given him his soapbox which is precisely what he wanted. 

On the flip side, if a guy with blooded hands holding a knife and a meat cleaver approaches you and asks you to do something (as far as I know he asked people standing around to film his rant), you would probably not want to contradict him...


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## pink freud (May 22, 2013)

Randy said:


> How did nobody just ram this guy with a ....ing car?



I have to wonder if the UK has any equivalent "Stand Your Ground" type laws.


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## Randy (May 22, 2013)

The guy just decapitated somebody and he's walking around in the street ranting and waving around his murder weapon. I'd imagine that might qualify as cause enough to incapacitate that guy if, for nothing else, for your own safety.


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## flexkill (May 22, 2013)

Randy said:


> How did nobody just ram this guy with a ....ing car?



Where is "Kai the hero Hitchhiker" loon with his hatchet when you need him????


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## pink freud (May 22, 2013)

Randy said:


> The guy just decapitated somebody and he's walking around in the street ranting and waving around his murder weapon. I'd imagine that might qualify as cause enough to incapacitate that guy if, for nothing else, for your own safety.



I'd think so too, but my perspective is that of a US citizen. For example, didn't we have a thread not too long ago about the hesitancy of Chinese people to help each other? Other cultures, other laws. I know the UK has some pretty strict rules about the use of weapons, so I don't know how interference (especially after the fact) plays out there. I'm sure somebody here has insight.


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## MontaraMike (May 22, 2013)

flexkill said:


> Where is "Kai the hero Hitchhiker" loon with his hatchet when you need him????



In Jail!


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## Randy (May 22, 2013)

pink freud said:


> I'd think so too, but my perspective is that of a US citizen. For example, didn't we have a thread not too long ago about the hesitancy of Chinese people to help each other? Other cultures, other laws. I know the UK has some pretty strict rules about the use of weapons, so I don't know how interference (especially after the fact) plays out there. I'm sure somebody here has insight.



I'm getting this impression as well.


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## _MonSTeR_ (May 22, 2013)

What the royal ....??.


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## Basti (May 22, 2013)

Things like this are freak occurrences and you cannot criticise the public's behaviour under these circumstances. Maybe you would act differently but that would only be if you had successfully trained yourself to overcome such extreme shock and incredulity...I want to know who these bastards are and in whose name they acted if any. There are ways of making such people pay which transcend violence and torture, a game they would be familiar with and welcome, I wish they could be taught humanity and empathy and left to be consumed by their own actions.


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## m3l-mrq3z (May 22, 2013)

England is a 3rd world country now.


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## vampiregenocide (May 23, 2013)

This is a horrible incident, and unfortunately it's no doubt going to spark even more *hatred towards *Muslims in the UK, as evident from the rright-wing English Defence League getting riled up.

As for people not doing anything to attack these guys, they had just hacked a soldier to death. Nevermind our self-defence laws (which are sketchy I'll grant you), taking on someone like that is something I'd think twice about unless they were actually attacking me. That being said, people did go and check the body of the victim while the attackers were right there, and that is bloody brave of them.

As for why people were standing there filming him, apparently he asked people to. You could argue that giving a terrorist the chance to spout their ideals on camera is a bad thing, but having information about this incident could help police and people get some sort of context on the attack.



m3l-mrq3z said:


> England is a 3rd world country now.



Er...whut?


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## vansinn (May 23, 2013)

Quote: Originally Posted by EtherealEntity 
What I don't understand is why there are just people standing around near the killer and having him talk at their camera??



Genome said:


> Precisely what I was thinking.
> 
> If I was at the scene and had just witnessed this guy attack someone with a knife and meat cleaver, the last thing on my mind would be to stop, whip out my smartphone and let the guy talk into it while he holds the murder weapon in his blooded hands.



Initial UK Sandy Hook lookalike MK-ultra in staged theatrical play.
Reason/rationale won't be found in mainstream media, look elsewhere in coming days, and expect more later.

Take note of David Rockefeller's testimony in the RF Foundation decade report 2010-2020, page 34:
"All we need is one cataclismic event, to make everybody embrace New World Order".
Too many events going in this direction..


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## Jakke (May 23, 2013)

vansinn said:


> Initial UK Sandy Hook lookalike MK-ultra in staged theatrical play.
> Reason/rationale won't be found in mainstream media, look elsewhere in coming days, and *expect more later*.



And this is like me saying: "sometime in the near future the sun will shine". You are not really going out on a limb with your predictions here, _something_ will always happen. There are 7 billion of us, and a lot of those 7 billion people are quite fond of killing other people.

Furthermore, that you even *dare* to refer to this sort of tragedies as "false flags" makes me question your basic human decency. Come live in the real world instead.

... But I guess I'm "in on it"


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## GuitaristOfHell (May 23, 2013)

Randy said:


> How did nobody just ram this guy with a ....ing car?


My exact initial thought.


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## L1ght (May 23, 2013)

Wait... are you allowed to own firearms in England?


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## ShiftKey (May 23, 2013)

L1ght said:


> Wait... are you allowed to own firearms in England?


long story short, no your not allowed any kind of firearm,you can apply for a massive pain in the ass and bechecked to get one but there is an unspoken policy to reduce the number of firearms licenses (basically if your not a farmer/gamekeeper dont bother to apply) even our airsoft guns have strict legal limits and must be below 1joule projectile energy or else its classified as a firearm and illegal.
and air rifles is limited to 12 ft'lbs iirc

What I dont get is why its been reported as a terrorist act with Muslim connotations (aside from the soapbox rantings of the guy).
just strikes me a nutter murdering someone in broad daylight being rebranded to promote islamophobia...whatever sells papers I guess.

Oh and the EDL  football holligans being herded by barely ex-skinheads.

And as for false flag etc etc illminati new world order blah blah......meh come back and post something other than conspiracy theory buzzwords and mabe you could post something at least (ill)thought out that forms a sentence.


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## McKay (May 23, 2013)

L1ght said:


> Wait... are you allowed to own firearms in England?



Yes, you just need a license.


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## McKay (May 23, 2013)

vampiregenocide said:


> This is a horrible incident, and unfortunately it's no doubt going to spark even more racism against Muslims in the UK





> spark even more racism against Muslims





> racism against Muslims


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## m3l-mrq3z (May 23, 2013)

vampiregenocide said:


> This is a horrible incident, and unfortunately it's no doubt going to spark even more racism against Muslims in the UK, as evident from the rright-wing English Defence League getting riled up.



I wonder why that racism continues to increase, man. I really do. I mean, shouldn't it have hit a peak years ago? The Facebook Page of the EDL will reach 100 K followers soon. There must be some explanation for the decrease of tolerance of the ethnic British population. But what is it?


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## Jakke (May 23, 2013)

magic_golem said:


> What I dont get is why its been reported as a terrorist act with Muslim connotations (aside from the soapbox rantings of the guy).
> just strikes me a nutter murdering someone in broad daylight being rebranded to promote islamophobia...whatever sells papers I guess.



Well, the soapbox ranting is pretty important. Since this is before any psychological evaluation, it has to be taken at face-value, and right now it looks like an act of terrorism with muslim connotations. This may change with further investigation, and would it, I'd welcome it.

Furthermore, I'm skeptical of the term islamophobia. Three main reasons:
1. Those who hate muslims for being muslims are very seldom afraid of them.
2. There are people, such as ex-muslims, who are legitimately afraid of political islam. Bleeding hearts still refer to these people as "islamophobes".
3. It is used to strangle any dialogue. 
-" Sooo.. You want muslims to start policing their own, and maybe keep vigilant against radical imams or radical youngsters*? WHO DARE YOU PUT ANY RESPONSIBILITY ON THE MUSLIMS YOU ISLAMOPHOBE??!?!?!?!"


*This happens to be yours truly's stance. It is apparent that most of the efforts from the native majority in western countries are pretty much in vain, as these sort of things still keep popping up (we had a suicide bomber in 2011). It is therefore in the muslim minority's interest to keep these people at bay themselves, as they are not interested in extra police-profiling (which might be a reaction if this is not dealt with) of their group. Regardless of this, radical imams are still accepted, an extremely radical imam was even invited by the organization "Sweden's Young Muslims" (this is a large, mainstream muslim youth group with state financial support) to speak. This imam has several times called for the deaths fo both jews and gay people.

Before we start talking about structural racism and the like, which usually is talked about when something like this happens, I think we should talk about what the muslims can do to keep their fellow man *in the countries that has graciously kept them from war and/or persecution* safe.


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## Randy (May 23, 2013)

magic_golem said:


> long story short, no your not allowed any kind of firearm





McKay said:


> Yes, you just need a license.



Well, that's conclusive.


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## Evil Weasel (May 23, 2013)

Randy said:


> Well, that's conclusive.


Look at the qualifying remarks. It is illegal to own a firearm without a licence. I can't say how easy it is to get one of these licenses, but ever since the Dunblane high school shooting our laws on firearms were made very strict.

I have shot rifles in a target shooting range and the safety laws in place there are incredibly stringent.


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## Genome (May 23, 2013)

As far as I know most of the crime was committed with a knife and meat cleaver, readily available in shops. 

Not sure the gun was fired at all apart from when the police arrived, although I may be wrong.


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## vampiregenocide (May 23, 2013)

McKay said:


> *image*



It was late when I wrote that, give me a break. People will still be discriminated against because of their ethnicity. I corrected my original post.

As for someone telling me to get a reality check in my rep (not saying it was you McKay), not sure how you came to that conclusion.


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## McKay (May 23, 2013)

vampiregenocide said:


> It was late when I wrote that, give me a break. People will still be discriminated against because of their ethnicity. I corrected my original post.
> 
> As for someone telling me to get a reality check in my rep (not saying it was you McKay), not sure how you came to that conclusion.



Wasn't me dude. 

I can't wait for Question Time tonight.


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## Basti (May 23, 2013)

Let's wait until we have more news on the attackers before we start pointing fingers mkay. 


Jakke said:


> Furthermore, I'm skeptical of the term islamophobia. Three main reasons:
> 1. Those who hate muslims for being muslims are very seldom afraid of them.


I don't think homophobes are called that because they squeal at the site of gay people.


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## Jakke (May 23, 2013)

Basti said:


> Let's wait until we have more news on the attackers before we start pointing fingers mkay.



And I would suggest the same, but with the knee-jerk defences as well.




Basti said:


> I don't think homophobes are called that because they squeal at the site of gay people.



That's not a good term either, as it's not, in the same way, very accurate.


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## fps (May 23, 2013)

There have been some pretty amazing, shocking views expressed on facebook in the last 24 hours relating to this incident. Still a lot of work to do for us to move forward as a society accepting of all our races and religions but intolerant of terrible actions by individuals from any of our major or minor factions.


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## fps (May 23, 2013)

liamh said:


> Awful.
> Such unfortunate timing aswell, I bet Nigel Farage is feeling extremely vindicated atm



Not gonna be feeling that vindicated, the guy I saw on the news with blood on his hands was clearly raised in South London judging by his accent.


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## m3l-mrq3z (May 23, 2013)

vampiregenocide said:


> It was late when I wrote that, give me a break. People will still be discriminated against because of their ethnicity. I corrected my original post.
> 
> As for someone telling me to get a reality check in my rep (not saying it was you McKay), not sure how you came to that conclusion.



It was me who gave you that neg rep . Yes, yes. I should've signed it, but I forgot. I said it to you and I will say it here: you need a reality check. In case you're an ethnic Brit, you are pretty much engaging in activism pro people that neither like you nor your culture.

The FB page of the EDL will reach 100.000 likes before this day is over. I'd love it to reach 200.000 likes by the end of next week. It's about time Western European countries take a stance against uncontrolled immigration of people that are pretty much useless and rather dangerous for the host countries. But you are concerned about these people being discriminated lol.


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## vampiregenocide (May 23, 2013)

m3l-mrq3z said:


> It was me who gave you that neg rep . Yes, yes. I should've signed it, but I forgot. I said it to you and I will say it here: you need a reality check. In case you're an ethnic Brit, you are pretty much engaging in activism pro people that neither like you nor your culture.
> 
> The FB page of the EDL will reach 100.000 likes before this day is over. I'd love it to reach 200.000 likes by the end of next week. It's about time Western European countries take a stance against uncontrolled immigration of people that are pretty much useless and rather dangerous for the host countries. But you are concerned about these people being discriminated lol.



Wait...that's why you're telling me to get a reality check?!



fps said:


> Not gonna be feeling that vindicated, the guy I saw on the news with blood on his hands was clearly raised in South London judging by his accent.



That why I was thinking he was radicalised here, rather than being radicalised then moving here.


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## Jakke (May 23, 2013)

m3l-mrq3z said:


> It was me who gave you that neg rep . Yes, yes. I should've signed it, but I forgot. I said it to you and I will say it here: you need a reality check. In case you're an ethnic Brit, you are pretty much engaging in activism pro people that neither like you nor your culture.
> 
> The FB page of the EDL will reach 100.000 likes before this day is over. I'd love it to reach 200.000 likes by the end of next week. It's about time Western European countries take a stance against uncontrolled immigration of people that are pretty much useless and rather dangerous for the host countries. But you are concerned about these people being discriminated lol.



I, as a rule, never give neg-rep. I'm not going to now either, but dude... Just no

Regulated immigration is one thing, I believe every sane people is for that, and based on how the world works, unregulated immigration would never work. But there is a difference between that and the English "Let's Throw All 'em Brown Buggers Out" Defence League. I don't like to throw around the word "racist", as it has basically been reduced to: "this person does not agree with me, thus he's a racist" (and thus taken away the power of the word), but the EDL truly are racists.



vampiregenocide said:


> That why I was thinking he was radicalised here, rather than being radicalised then moving here.



It seems to be quite the problem in Britain, the guy who blew himself up here had been radicalized in Britain as well.


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## vampiregenocide (May 23, 2013)

I do definitely think there needs to be a tougher look at who is preaching hate. We allow people to get away with some right horrible stuff because of freedom of speech. I respect the fact that it's one of the core principles of what makes this country great, but people abusing that freedom and spreading hatred need to be dealt with. That covers any kind of hate group.


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## Jakke (May 23, 2013)

vampiregenocide said:


> I do definitely think there needs to be a tougher look at who is preaching hate. We allow people to get away with some right horrible stuff because of freedom of speech. I respect the fact that it's one of the core principles of what makes this country great, but people abusing that freedom and spreading hatred need to be dealt with. That covers any kind of hate group.



We have a crime here called Hets Mot Folkgrupp, which criminalizes hate-speech*. It basically means that if you spread hate against a group of five or more people, you can get prosecuted for it. 
There has been some issues however, which are actually related to muslims. In fact, muslims has been persecuting jews with words, and worse, rocks, and there has not been done a whole lot about it. The mayor of the city in question actually hinted at that the jews themselves might be to blame, since they all hadn't gone out en masse and denounced everything that Israel has done, and will do in the future. 
Let's just say that outside of the social democrats in the city that has voted for him, he's not very well liked...

There has also been attacks against dogs in the Netherlands, which are very unfortunate, and the crimes were met with a sort of indifference from the legal system.


*This is also why the WBC hates Sweden, we prosecuted a gay-bashing pastor under this law.


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## m3l-mrq3z (May 23, 2013)

Jakke said:


> I, as a rule, never give neg-rep. I'm not going to now either, but dude... Just no



Wow, dude, that's amazing. You really are an angel. 



Jakke said:


> I
> Regulated immigration is one thing, I believe every sane people is for that, and based on how the world works, unregulated immigration would never work. But there is a difference between that and the English "Let's Throw All 'em Brown Buggers Out" Defence League. I don't like to throw around the word "racist", as it has basically been reduced to: "this person does not agree with me, thus he's a racist" (and thus taken away the power of the word), but the EDL truly are racists.



I for one could understand that kind of iniative  We are all racists in some sort of way, and seeing as how Western European countries (specially yours) have failed to profit from immigration, I can totally understand even support radical measures as "kick them all out". 



Jakke said:


> It seems to be quite the problem in Britain, the guy who blew himself up here had been radicalized in Britain as well.



It is also a problem in Germany, and France, and Holland, and Denmark...so is it the host country's fault? No.


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## Genome (May 23, 2013)

Basti said:


> Let's wait until we have more news on the attackers before we start pointing fingers mkay.



His name is Michael Adebulajo, Nigerian background but been in the UK for most if not all of his life (as much as we can assume), educated here, his family are devout Christians but he converted to radical Islam at some point since he left school.

As far as I know he has never been to the Middle East.


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## McKay (May 23, 2013)

> ...we are forced by the Qur'an in Sura at-Tauba [Chapter 9 of the Koran], through many, many ayah [verses] throughout the Koran that [say] we must fight them as they fight us, a eye for a eye and a tooth for a tooth. I apologize that women had to witness this today, but in our land our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your governments. They don&#8217;t care about you. Do you think David Cameron is gonna get caught in the street when we start busting our guns? Do you think the politicians are going to die? No it's going to be the average guy, like you, and your children.


Direct quote from one of the suspects. We're told religion has no part in this and it's some isolated freak incident. It isn't and we all know it isn't so let's stop deluding ourselves.


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## Jakke (May 23, 2013)

m3l-mrq3z said:


> Wow, dude, that's amazing. You really are an angel.



Well, it's not for your benefit (so spare your condescension). I just like to let people keep spewing their stupid opinions unmolested.



m3l-mrq3z said:


> I for one could understand that kind of iniative  We are all racists in some sort of way, and seeing as how Western European countries (specially yours) have failed to profit from immigration, I can totally understand even support radical measures as "kick them all out".



And that is why the EDL is never going to succeed in any substantial way, they both lack vision, and brains. They see a problem, such as radical islam (despite that their brethren on the right are the people who are truly dangerous, based on the number of terrorist attacks per year).

Furthermore, your sith lord-esque declaration that "we're not so different after all" is flawed. Humanity has been predisposed to racism, true, but you do not understand (as I was saying about vision earlier) why. Humans are pack animals, and what defines a pack is that "we" are not "them", it's defined by what it is not. The groups we have hung out with earlier has been of our own ethnicity, it's defined by that "we" (the, for example, white people) are not "them" (the black people, for example). So, what do we get when they mix?
-Well, racism of course!

But there is nothing inherent about racism in humans (as opposed to horses, seriously, check shit that out), but there is an inherent need to belong. As a matter of fact, since racists (or white/black nationalists, or whatever) likes to propose ethnical separation, they are in fact making the problems, that they claim ethnical separation would solve, worse.

The problem is the false dichotomy: "either all the immigrants, or no immigrants". The EDL and associates believe in the last, and the Swedish government (for example) believes in the other. But there is a secret:


- There is such a thing as *moderation*!



m3l-mrq3z said:


> It is also a problem in Germany, and France, and Holland, and Denmark...so is it the host country's fault? No.



With the exception of separatistic terrorism, it is very rarely the attacked nation's fault. I have not claimed that it was either.


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## McKay (May 23, 2013)

The EDL hurt their cause far more than they help it. Acting and looking like a bunch of mouth breathing thugs doesn't exactly lend credence to the intellectual rigor of your movement's rationale.


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## ghostred7 (May 23, 2013)

Randy said:


> How did nobody just ram this guy with a ....ing car?



This


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## m3l-mrq3z (May 23, 2013)

Jakke said:


> Well, it's not for your benefit (so spare your condescension). I just like to let people keep spewing their stupid opinions unmolested.



Oh, well. Thank you.




Jakke said:


> And that is why the EDL is never going to succeed in any substantial way, they both lack vision, and brains. They see a problem, such as radical islam (despite that their brethren on the right are the people who are truly dangerous, based on the number of terrorist attacks per year).



I didn't know you needed brains to succeed in politics. 

And no offense, but I'd rather go for a few beers with the most extreme of EDL-members than spend time with the people they hate. Why? Because I appreciate patriotic people. 





Jakke said:


> Furthermore, your sith lord-esque declaration that "we're not so different after all" is flawed. Humanity has been predisposed to racism, true, but you do not understand (as I was saying about vision earlier) why. Humans are pack animals, and what defines a pack is that "we" are not "them", it's defined by what it is not. The groups we have hung out with earlier has been of our own ethnicity, it's defined by that "we" (the, for example, white people) are not "them" (the black people, for example). So, what do we get when they mix?
> -Well, racism of course!



I can't say I don't agree, because I do. I oppose multiculturalism in the way it's been enforced in the West. Not all cultures are compatible with each other, and it sickens me to see left-wing politicians appeasing a culture that strives to undermine the foundations of Western civilization. 






Jakke said:


> But there is nothing inherent about racism in humans (as opposed to horses, seriously, check shit that out), but there is an inherent need to belong. As a matter of fact, since racists (or white/black nationalists, or whatever) likes to propose ethnical separation, they are in fact making the problems, that they claim ethnical separation would solve, worse.
> 
> The problem is the false dichotomy: "either all the immigrants, or no immigrants". The EDL and associates believe in the last, and the Swedish government (for example) believes in the other. But there is a secret:
> 
> ...


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## hairychris (May 23, 2013)

m3l-mrq3z said:


> The FB page of the EDL will reach 100.000 likes before this day is over. I'd love it to reach 200.000 likes by the end of next week. It's about time Western European countries take a stance against uncontrolled immigration of people that are pretty much useless and rather dangerous for the host countries. But you are concerned about these people being discriminated lol.



The 2 guys who did the deed grew up here - they aren't immigrants, although are obviously from an ethnic minority. Immigration isn't the issue in this particular case, it religiously-inspired* twattery.

The EDL are a bunch of pseudo-fascist wankers who Nazi salute and listen to shit Oi when they don't think that anyone is watching. If you want them to become more popular here then you can .... off, dick head. Consider your arse neg repped.

* I hate all religion. People who are religious, generally, are better than their religion. This asshattery happens when people take it too literally. We've house-trained it, mainly, so it doesn't shit on the floor too often now.


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## m3l-mrq3z (May 23, 2013)

hairychris said:


> The 2 guys who did the deed grew up here - they aren't immigrants, although are obviously from an ethnic minority. Immigration isn't the issue in this particular case, it religiously-inspired* twattery.
> 
> The EDL are a bunch of pseudo-fascist wankers who Nazi salute and listen to shit Oi when they don't think that anyone is watching. If you want them to become more popular here then you can .... off, dick head. Consider your arse neg repped.
> 
> * I hate all religion. People who are religious, generally, are better than their religion. This asshattery happens when people take it too literally.



1. They are technically immigrants, as they are no ethnic Brits.

2. How do you define fascism? All too often people seem to use "fascism" as a synonym for "racism", even though this is as ignorant as it gets. 
I do want them to be more popular than they already are. Let the redz come in 

3. I am a religious person, but some religions are far worse than others. Some religions value human life. Others don't.


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## vansinn (May 23, 2013)

Jakke said:


> Furthermore, that you even *dare* to refer to this sort of tragedies as "false flags" makes me question your basic human decency. Come live in the real world instead.



Commentary on the net seems to indicate that most UK, EU and US citizens oppose arming Syrian opposition/rebels (which almost all but governments and various services agree are foreign backed anyways) - a topic Cameron 
does all he can to get pushed through.

Some of the 'official' videos of the man doing that awful deed has been edited to not include all he said, which was about what takes place in Syria, i.e. the same as what he did.

Now, please do not for a split second think I sympathize with his doings; whatever he may have intended to showcase, arranged or not, this is not any means anyone will approve of.

Some journalists, also in the UK, has expressed viewpoints that 'Cameron handed the man the machete'.

As such, I believe I can raise the question if this could've been an arranged deed.

My mistake was that I did not raise a question - as provocative it still might have been, but wrote it as fact, to which I apologize.


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## McKay (May 23, 2013)

hairychris said:


> The 2 guys who did the deed grew up here - they aren't immigrants, although are obviously from an ethnic minority. Immigration isn't the issue in this particular case, it religiously-inspired* twattery.
> 
> The EDL are a bunch of pseudo-fascist wankers who Nazi salute and listen to shit Oi when they don't think that anyone is watching. If you want them to become more popular here then you can .... off, dick head. Consider your arse neg repped.
> 
> * I hate all religion. People who are religious, generally, are better than their religion. This asshattery happens when people take it too literally.



Complete agreement. The fact that the guy's Nigerian parents were Christian shows that immigration only comes into play in a broader context. As for the EDL, I wouldn't be surprised if they were controlled opposition of a kind.


----------



## hairychris (May 23, 2013)

m3l-mrq3z said:


> 1. They are technically immigrants, as they are no ethnic Brits.



Hahahahahahahaha, who or what the .... is an ethnic Brit? How far back do you want to go? Jesus.

If you're born here you can never be an immigrant. Your parents could be but you aren't. Basic definition. You will have an ethnicity, but not be an immigrant.



m3l-mrq3z said:


> 2. How do you define fascism? All too often people seem to use "fascism" as a synonym for "racism", even though this is as ignorant as it gets.
> I do want them to be more popular than they already are. Let the redz come in



Nope, they're far right, linked to idiots like the (now pretty much failed) BNP. I am pretty well versed in 20th century European politics so know exactly what I wrote.

And reds? The ....? There are no popular socialist, let alone communist, parties in the UK any more. All that shit is soooo '80s. Believe me, I was there. Things are very different today.

Either you are uninformed about the UK political scene, being an idiot, or trolling.



m3l-mrq3z said:


> 3. I am a religious person, but some religions are far worse than others. Some religions value human life. Others don't.



Christianity, at it's heart (assuming that you are Christian), doesn't: ultimately it's all about the afterlife, and what you believe trumping what you actually do. Yeah, protestant theology is a bit more hardcore on this then catholic, but it boils down to me getting the shit end of the stick as an atheist post-mortem.

The difference between Islam and western Christianity is that as our society advanced the church could get away with less and less bullshit. Call it The Enlightenment. Believe me, when it was in charge it did the same sort of shit that we see happen in Islamic theocracies today, or worse. 

As I said, the majority of Christians are better than their book, and the same goes for Muslims. The difference is that their religion hasn't had the pressure to change that Christianity had...

EDIT: Think I'm wrong? Look at the fundamentalist movement in the US.


----------



## ShiftKey (May 23, 2013)

^ i think by reds he meant neg rep

EDIT:- Also George Galloway has pretty much hit the nail on the head with respect tot he linking of Syria and the retarded EDL, 
[In case anyone reading this missed it the Syrian rebels that are being funded by us have been doing rather alot of decapitations and more recently cutting out and eating the heart of an enemy on camera....Khorn would be proud but in the real world thats ....ing crazy]

George Galloway: Woolwich Beheading Attack will be Repeated, EDL are 'Moral Dwarves' - IBTimes UK


----------



## McKay (May 23, 2013)

m3l-mrq3z said:


> They are technically immigrants, as they are no ethnic Brits.





hairychris said:


> Hahahahahahahaha, who or what the .... is an ethnic Brit? How far back do you want to go? Jesus.



Let's not go down this road. I don't want to start debating the extent to which kinship affects us existentially. There's an argument there that could last indefinitely, and it's largely irrelevant to this discussion.


----------



## m3l-mrq3z (May 23, 2013)

hairychris said:


> Hahahahahahahaha, who or what the .... is an ethnic Brit? How far back do you want to go? Jesus.
> 
> If you're born here you can never be an immigrant. Your parents could be but you aren't. Basic definition. You will have an ethnicity, but not be an immigrant.
> 
> ...


----------



## hairychris (May 23, 2013)

Jakke said:


> Furthermore, your sith lord-esque declaration that "we're not so different after all" is flawed. Humanity has been predisposed to racism, true, but you do not understand (as I was saying about vision earlier) why. Humans are pack animals, and what defines a pack is that "we" are not "them", it's defined by what it is not. The groups we have hung out with earlier has been of our own ethnicity, it's defined by that "we" (the, for example, white people) are not "them" (the black people, for example). So, what do we get when they mix?
> -Well, racism of course!



"In" groups and "out" groups. Pretty basic psychology. You can throw in political leaning, religion, football club supported, whatever.

The interesting thing is that _H. sapiens sapiens_ did not evolve to live in the society that we live in now, but in small familial clans where everyone else was a threat. Our brains are for ever trying to deal with a world that they are not exactly built to.

Explains a lot.


----------



## hairychris (May 23, 2013)

m3l-mrq3z said:


>



Oh .... off to your nearest NDP meeting to bitch about The Protocols of The Elders of Zion, numbskull.


----------



## m3l-mrq3z (May 23, 2013)

hairychris said:


> Oh .... off to your nearest NDP meeting to bitch about The Protocols of The Elders of Zion, numbskull.



lol I am not German. And my religion is judaism


----------



## dcoughlin1 (May 23, 2013)

Apparently people are confusing EDF energy for the EDL.


----------



## m3l-mrq3z (May 23, 2013)

More interesting tweets:


----------



## Genome (May 23, 2013)

hairychris said:


> "In" groups and "out" groups. Pretty basic psychology. You can throw in political leaning, religion, football club supported, whatever.
> 
> The interesting thing is that _H. sapiens sapiens_ did not evolve to live in the society that we live in now, but in small familial clans where everyone else was a threat. Our brains are for ever trying to deal with a world that they are not exactly built to.
> 
> Explains a lot.



Bingo.

I used the football analogy when talking to someone earlier. When people are violent (murderous or otherwise), you often find people blaming whatever said people are being violent in the name of, whether it be religion or whatever.

In reality it's just a front or an excuse for them to be violent. People will always find a way, it's just human nature.


----------



## vampiregenocide (May 23, 2013)

vansinn said:


> Some journalists, also in the UK, has expressed viewpoints that 'Cameron handed the man the machete'.



I think that's implying that Cameron has not dealt with radicalist Muslims good enough and so allowed this to happen, rather than being directly involved in orchestrating this incident. 



m3l-mrq3z said:


>



Why bother having a debate if you're not willing to read opposing views? 



magic_golem said:


> ^ i think by reds he meant neg rep
> 
> EDIT:- Also George Galloway has pretty much hit the nail on the head with respect tot he linking of Syria and the retarded EDL,
> [In case anyone reading this missed it the Syrian rebels that are being funded by us have been doing rather alot of decapitations and more recently cutting out and eating the heart of an enemy on camera....Khorn would be proud but in the real world thats ....ing crazy]
> ...



The thing about terrorists is quite often I can understand where that frustration comes from. Whether you're talking about the IRA or extremist Muslims, their discontent with the Western world isn't exactly unfounded. Britain and America have spread our own terrorism across the Middle East, Africa and beyond. It's not surprising that some of the people from those countries begin to harbour a hatred for us. If another country did to Britain what we do to developing countries, I'd probably pick up a weapon and fight back.

My disagreement stems from where this anger is directed. I do not agree with attacking innocent people to make a political statement. If you have a problem, either exercise your democratic right to protest and free speech, or target those directly responsible. Terrorists become as bad as the people that created them, and when they piss off their creators they simply give more reasons for terrorists to use to recruit others to their cause. That is why the war on terror will not be won on a political level, but on a social level; by not allowing ourselves to be consumed by hatred and intolerance.



Genome said:


> Bingo.
> 
> I used the football analogy when talking to someone earlier. When people are violent (murderous or otherwise), you often find people blaming whatever said people are being violent in the name of, whether it be religion or whatever.
> 
> In reality it's just a front or an excuse for them to be violent. People will always find a way, it's just human nature.



Investigating and figuring out actual reasons for things is too difficult for some, and so it's much easier to just blame an individual or group. Making a scapegoat for your discontent with an issue means you don't have to really think for yourself. It's evident when you start questioning people like the EDL and asking for evidence to support their opinions.


----------



## dcoughlin1 (May 23, 2013)

Even more interesting tweets:
Public Shaming - Man Killed In Horrible London Machete Attack, Racist Brits Would Like To Kill A Few Billion More


----------



## m3l-mrq3z (May 23, 2013)

vampiregenocide said:


> Why bother having a debate if you're not willing to read opposing views?



Trust me. I actually did read everything he wrote, but I can't be bothered to reply to his arguments, as I know it is pretty much useless.


----------



## ShiftKey (May 23, 2013)

dcoughlin1 said:


> Even more interesting tweets:
> Public Shaming - Man Killed In Horrible London Machete Attack, Racist Brits Would Like To Kill A Few Billion More



cheers for that, I dont use twitter etc so would have missed this solid gold, I find the stuff hilarious and worrying at the same time.


----------



## m3l-mrq3z (May 23, 2013)

What's worrying about it?


----------



## Randy (May 23, 2013)

Gone for good.


----------



## ShiftKey (May 23, 2013)

RANDY TO THE RESCUE!!!!!!


----------



## BucketheadRules (May 23, 2013)

m3l-mrq3z said:


> And no offense, but I'd rather go for a few beers with the most extreme of EDL-members than spend time with the people they hate. Why? Because I appreciate patriotic people.



Don't take this the wrong way, but judging from your various posts in this thread you appear to be an idiot.

Seriously - the EDL are a bunch of loudmouthed, violent, racist skinhead yobs who deserve no media attention whatsoever. They're football hooligans with a far-right agenda. I will not beat around the bush here - anyone who supports them is a cow-brained retard by default. 

THEY ARE NOT PATRIOTIC. THEY ARE RACIST. THERE IS A LINE.






EDIT: Nice work Randy.


----------



## BucketheadRules (May 23, 2013)

We've let that idiot's childish posturing get in the way of the real tragedy here. 

Deepest sympathies to Lee Rigby's family.


----------



## Genome (May 23, 2013)

The soldier had a 2 year old son. 

*Sigh*


----------



## Xaios (May 23, 2013)

m3l-mrq3z said:


> It was me who gave you that neg rep . Yes, yes. I should've signed it, but I forgot. I said it to you and I will say it here: you need a reality check. In case you're an ethnic Brit, you are pretty much engaging in activism pro people that neither like you nor your culture.
> 
> The FB page of the EDL will reach 100.000 likes before this day is over. I'd love it to reach 200.000 likes by the end of next week. It's about time Western European countries take a stance against uncontrolled immigration of people that are pretty much useless and rather dangerous for the host countries. But you are concerned about these people being discriminated lol.



Hi, I think I know of a couple people you'd like to meet. Their names are Varg Vikernes and Anders Breivik.


----------



## hairychris (May 24, 2013)

BucketheadRules said:


> We've let that idiot's childish posturing get in the way of the real tragedy here.
> 
> Deepest sympathies to Lee Rigby's family.



This.

Sad day.

(And apologies for letting the idiot wind me up a bit)


----------



## Jakke (May 24, 2013)

hairychris said:


> (And apologies for letting the idiot wind me up a bit)



I think we all got a little pissed man, there's nothing to apologize for.


----------



## ShiftKey (May 24, 2013)

Yeah,He was a flat out troll looking to piss people off with no real point of veiw made apart from general opposition.

Back on topic, looks like they are both going to live so police interviews are going to happen. 
+I bet that girl who tweeted about hitting a cyclist in her car is kinda happy that the spotlight is off her (silly woman)


----------



## Chuck (May 24, 2013)

dcoughlin1 said:


> Even more interesting tweets:
> Public Shaming - Man Killed In Horrible London Machete Attack, Racist Brits Would Like To Kill A Few Billion More



Reading those tweets sickens me. I was not aware of this putrid racism over across the pond. Disgusting.


----------



## BucketheadRules (May 24, 2013)

Misery Theory said:


> Reading those tweets sickens me. I was not aware of this putrid racism over across the pond. Disgusting.



I think it's more widespread than many people in the UK would like to believe.

It's something many people here seem to hold but are usually afraid to express because they're ashamed of it. It all seems to come out when things like this happen. Hence the EDL taking to the streets - a deeply racist organisation who thrive off things like this happening. It gives them a chance to push their moronic agendas on people while they're off guard. It's terrible.

Obviously the majority of Brits are not racist at all (myself and most people I know included), but there is almost certainly a more significant problem with it than we're willing to admit.


----------



## ArkaneDemon (May 24, 2013)

BBC News - Woolwich: Boris Johnson finds Data Bill 'compelling'

"Boris Johnson has added his voice to suggestions the Communications Data Bill could be revived following the murder of soldier Lee Rigby.

The London mayor said it was "too early" to say whether the bill - dubbed a "snoopers' charter" by critics - would have prevented the attack.

But he said police arguments for the proposed law were "pretty compelling".

The bill, allowing the monitoring of all UK citizens' internet use, was dropped after Lib Dem opposition.

But according to The Independent newspaper, Home Secretary Theresa May is coming under pressure from senior figures in the Conservative Party to revive it."


----------



## BucketheadRules (May 24, 2013)

ArkaneDemon said:


> BBC News - Woolwich: Boris Johnson finds Data Bill 'compelling'
> 
> "Boris Johnson has added his voice to suggestions the Communications Data Bill could be revived following the murder of soldier Lee Rigby.
> 
> ...



I can see the benefits this may have against terrorism etc, but I don't feel entirely comfortable with the idea of my internet use being monitored by the government. I'm not hiding anything, but I still find it unsettling. It's getting a little bit too much like _1984_...


----------



## Basti (May 24, 2013)

Holy crap, the Lib Dems actually did something significant. I really don't know this country anymore.


----------



## Captain Shoggoth (May 24, 2013)

Conservative Internet bill can eat my shorts, finally a good one from Clegg.

Speaking as a "paki" living in London, we need a new kind of marching, white, brown, black, all colours marching in the streets against extremism.

Groups like the EDL and Al-Mujahiroun see themselves as different, but they all have the same shit in their heads and filth pouring from their mouths, they are the same thing, the enemy of progress.

Britons of all stripes need to PUBLICALLY let these idiots know that we as a united people aren't willing to be intimidated into not wearing a Help for Heroes t-shirt for fear of being beheaded, or walking past an EDL-popular pub on a Friday night for fear of having the shit kicked out of us.

This shit needs to end.


----------



## Chuck (May 24, 2013)

BucketheadRules said:


> I think it's more widespread than many people in the UK would like to believe.
> 
> It's something many people here seem to hold but are usually afraid to express because they're ashamed of it. It all seems to come out when things like this happen. Hence the EDL taking to the streets - a deeply racist organisation who thrive off things like this happening. It gives them a chance to push their moronic agendas on people while they're off guard. It's terrible.
> 
> Obviously the majority of Brits are not racist at all (myself and most people I know included), but there is almost certainly a more significant problem with it than we're willing to admit. Mind you, we're probably nowhere near on the same scale as parts of the Bible belt in the US...



Agreed, the Bible Belt can be pretty bad, that being said its mostly the older generation that are the most racist. But regardless, yeah racism =


----------



## Don Vito (May 24, 2013)

BucketheadRules said:


> Mind you, we're probably nowhere near on the same scale as parts of the Bible belt in the US...


By "certain parts" I really hope you mean small no-one-gives-a-.... backwood areas, because the Bible Belt is very multicultural, and most people here aren't racist. 

KKK members/sympathizers and white/black supremacist are such a small and secretive minority, that no one gives any thought to their opinions or "actions".

Your racist minority is no smaller than ours.


----------



## Fat-Elf (May 24, 2013)

Misery Theory said:


> Reading those tweets sickens me. I was not aware of this putrid racism over across the pond. Disgusting.



Easy for you to say "over across the pond" when you don't have to deal with this immigration bullshit. Well, okay.. You do but at least you don't have to fear US turn totally islamic in next 20-30 years.

Edit: *neg rep* "paranoid bigot", well that escalated quickly.


----------



## Jakke (May 24, 2013)

Fat-Elf said:


> Easy for you to say "over across the pond" when you don't have to deal with this immigration bullshit. Well, okay.. You do but at least you don't have to fear US turn totally islamic in next 20-30 years.



Neither do we, we are still secular democracies.


*EDIT* Most of all, Finland accepts a small percentage of the average refugee quota of a EU nation, so I don't think you have a demographic explosion to worry about. I'd worry about the Perussuomalaiset instead


----------



## BucketheadRules (May 24, 2013)

Don Vito said:


> By "certain parts" I really hope you mean small no-one-gives-a-.... backwood areas, because the Bible Belt is very multicultural, and most people here aren't racist.
> 
> KKK members/sympathizers and white/black supremacist are such a small and secretive minority, that no one gives any thought to their opinions or "actions".
> 
> Your racist minority is no smaller than ours.



Fair enough, looks like I need to do some research!


----------



## Don Vito (May 24, 2013)

BucketheadRules said:


> Fair enough, looks like I need to do some research!


Your best bet would be trying to visit some time. You will find many stories and events tied to racism on the internet, but rarely(if at all) do you experience these things living here. At least I haven't in my 18 years of life. 

Just leave your Darwin shirt at home.





(I've passed this sign irl)


----------



## Fat-Elf (May 24, 2013)

Jakke said:


> Neither do we, we are still secular democracies.
> 
> 
> *EDIT* Most of all, Finland accepts a small percentage of the average refugee quota of a EU nation, so I don't think you have a demographic explosion to worry about. I'd worry about the Perussuomalaiset instead



Why? Perussuomalaiset (aka The Finns) are the ones who will save this country. Hopefully. Funny fact, my municipality has zero tolerance towards refugees. Hope that it would be the same for the whole country..


----------



## Jakke (May 24, 2013)

Fat-Elf said:


> Why? Perussuomalaiset (aka The Finns) are the ones who will save this country. Hopefully.



I had no idea if I were to put an article on "Perussuomalaiset", I'm not as good with Finnish as I should be.


Well, because: 
-They are populists, and populists are notoriously short sighted.
-Their followers, like you, use a saviour rethoric when talking about them. This is usually problematic when discussing political parties.
-They are against same-sex marriage, same-sex adoption, and in-vitero fertilization for same-sex couples.
-They are nationalists, which simply does not work to their extent in our modern world. The only way for it to actually work is isolationism, and it did not work out that well for North Korea.
-They don't like the Swedish Finns, which means that they specifically target an ethnic minority.

They are also very fond of fighting windmills, especially in the form of their "bold" declaration that "THEY WILL NOT ACCEPT SHARIA LAWS IN FINLAND!!!!"

I hope you also realize that I am, as a Swede, considered to represent the "wrong" kind of culture to The Finns, as they only want "Finnish" culture. Of course suitably forgetting that once you strip away the Swedish and Russian cultural elements, there isn't really much left (mämmi possibly, and Kalevala, which was written after the Swedish influences had come to Finland).



Fat-Elf said:


> Funny fact, my municipality has zero tolerance towards refugees. Hope that it would be the same for the whole country..



Well, fun fact: IT'S OUR GOD DAMN RESPONSIBILITY AS RICH NATIONS TO HELP THE LESS FORTUNATE.

Do you realize what you are saying? (and I am going to cut you some slack, because you're pretty young)
What you are saying is:
-_Eh.. I don't like people from other places, so .... them, they might as well die for all I care._

Well, not all of them die at once. Some also live and die in squalor moving between different border camps in the EU. I'm actually not sure which of the fates is worse. The problem with the immigration policy of the EU is not that we get too many people, it's that we have asshole nations not doing their part, leaving everyone else picking up your slack. You can also pray that I never become chief supreme commander of the EU, because then I would force you to do the basic human thing (and I can be very unpleasant), and if that don't suit you, then get your ass out of the EU.


----------



## Rook (May 24, 2013)

Wow nice little racism rant magnet we have going here.

A lot of the extreme remarks being made in this thread are ridiculous, not just from the obvious few at that...

This was a shocking and horrific incident in a city I love and call home by men who could have been my friends, by all accounts the last contact these guys had with with their school friends they were loving normal guys.

I feel pain for Rigby's family and for the people who have to listen to the shouting minorities who always capitalise on these situations, it's easy to feel the whole world is fighting some endless race war at times like this. Fact is stuff like this doesn't affect my relationships with my friends from all over the world and all kinds of heritages and the wonderful people who are actually everywhere and make up 99.9% of the population no different.

There's no right answer, this isn't going end any time soon, I will continue to be shocked and saddened by every loss of life that happens. I won't join in with the shouting and anger...


----------



## Fat-Elf (May 24, 2013)

Ugh, I'm not even starting this debate. Just remember that "I told you" when you are forced to turn muslim, if you're "lucky" enough to even be alive anymore. F*ck immigration, Europe for Europeans, suck it poor people. Period.


----------



## Rook (May 24, 2013)

^

This guy for real?


EDIT:  Cute response bro


----------



## BucketheadRules (May 24, 2013)

Fat-Elf said:


> Ugh, I'm not even starting this debate. Just remember that "I told you" when you are forced to turn muslim, if you're "lucky" enough to even be alive anymore. F*ck immigration, Europe for Europeans, suck it poor people. Period.



Whoever it was that called you a "paranoid bigot" was right on the money.

Idiot.


----------



## Jakke (May 24, 2013)

Fat-Elf said:


> Ugh, I'm not even starting this debate. Just remember that "I told you" when you are forced to turn muslim, if you're "lucky" enough to even be alive anymore. F*ck immigration, Europe for Europeans, suck it poor people. Period.



Wow... Just, wow...

Are you trolling? Please be trolling... 

Do you believe in conspiracy theories as a rule, or is it just the racist ones that tickle your fancy?

Sweden, and Finland are secular democracies (well, The Finns wants Finland to be ruled according to christianity, so screw that), because of this, there is no indication that we would be "forced" to turn muslim, and evidence suggests that the vast majority of immigrants actually take up OUR values, and not the opposite (which is of course hard to know when you listen to fear-mongers like The Finns). A new acceptance to question islam on theological grounds is growing stronger as well, so islam is not on some sort of pillar over all either.

Europe for Europeans eh? Where do you draw the line? Many would say that the Finnish due to their chequered genetic heritage aren't fully Europeans either. Are Russians European, or the Turks? How about the Georgians? Chrimea? Seriously, I'm really curious about where you arbiter Europe.


I can only hope that you'll grow up, there is so much of the world beyoned the blue-and-white of The Finns.

I would also love for you to define "healthy nationalism", which is one of the most important points to the True Finns.





Rook said:


> ^
> 
> This guy for real?



Finns have a pretty bad reputation in this department


That and stabbing...


----------



## ArkaneDemon (May 24, 2013)

Fat-Elf said:


> Ugh, I'm not even starting this debate. Just remember that "I told you" when you are forced to turn muslim, if you're "lucky" enough to even be alive anymore. F*ck immigration, Europe for Europeans, suck it poor people. Period.



LOL @ U

I'm surprised you didn't just call them "mudslimes" like most boneheads do.


----------



## Alberto7 (May 24, 2013)

Fat-Elf said:


> Ugh, I'm not even starting this debate. Just remember that "I told you" when you are forced to turn muslim, if you're "lucky" enough to even be alive anymore. F*ck immigration, Europe for Europeans, suck it poor people. Period.
> *image*



I like the interactions we've had in this forum. You're a cool dude, and I hope that you won't be offended by what I have to say, but, seeing as we're openly stating our views in this thread, I'll give you mine about this statement. I can't help but point out how ridiculous and selfish it is. Unless you believe with all your heart that selfishness is what will push humanity forward, I have no idea why you're saying that. Those kinds of blunt arguments almost sound like an excuse not to think and not to bother oneself to find a solution to a problem, or at least to understand that a middle ground does exist.

The following is just an assumption, of course, but it seems as though you've never really seen much misery and suffering in person. I also think you've never met many Muslim people, or have never visited a country where the predominant religion is Islam (seriously, few things are as eye-opening as that).

I am saying this as a person who has lived in both hemispheres of the globe, as a citizen of the EU, and as an immigrant in North America.

And, just so nobody misunderstands, I do NOT condone unrestrained and uncontrolled immigration, and I know from first hand experience that it is a huge issue in many countries. I am just trying to encourage you to think for yourself a little and try to accept that a middle ground exists.


----------



## Alberto7 (May 24, 2013)

Double post.


----------



## Jakke (May 24, 2013)

Alberto7 said:


> And, just so nobody misunderstands, I do NOT condoning unrestrained and uncontrolled immigration, and I know from first hand experience that it is a huge issue in many countries. I am just trying to encourage you to think for yourself a little and try to *accept that a middle ground exists*.



Thank you, there is far too much black-and-white thinking in this issue.


----------



## vampiregenocide (May 24, 2013)

Not sure if this was posted, but a flight to Manchester was diverted today after two men tried to break into the cockpit. There was also an incident on the M6 which allegedly had a suspicious vehicle and 'mobile device' but apparently was caused by some petrol thieves. Also a mosque has been attacked.

Unfortunately, I think this is just the beginning. Tensions have been getting higher and since the riots I've felt like perhaps we were on the road to some conflicts. I'm expecting more riots and attacks to be honest, not just from Muslims.


----------



## Alberto7 (May 24, 2013)

^ It's that moment when history begins to repeat itself, huh? I've been thinking that for some time now.

I haven't given my thoughts on the MAIN ISSUE on this thread... and, honestly, it's nothing that hasn't been stated already. I truly do feel for the soldier that got killed. His family are in my thoughts. He is an unlucky victim of a horrible deed


----------



## Don Vito (May 24, 2013)

sorry I had to


----------



## Rook (May 24, 2013)

vampiregenocide said:


> Not sure if this was posted, but a flight to Manchester was diverted today after two men tried to break into the cockpit. There was also an incident on the M6 which allegedly had a suspicious vehicle and 'mobile device' but apparently was caused by some petrol thieves. Also a mosque has been attacked.
> 
> Unfortunately, I think this is just the beginning. Tensions have been getting higher and since the riots I've felt like perhaps we were on the road to some conflicts. I'm expecting more riots and attacks to be honest, not just from Muslims.



Tensions have not been building since the riots 

I'm pretty sure stuff like that happens every day and goes unreported or unnoticed, the media are just trying to make things look suspicious. In actual fact _any_ flight that loses contact with ground has jets scrambled and they attempt to ground it since 9/11 (11/9 as it is here )

It's just media hype trying to make it look like something bigger is happening, I'd be 99% sure it isn't.


----------



## Alberto7 (May 24, 2013)

^ Rook, you make ask a slightly off-topic question. Is stuff like this really happening more often these days, or is it just my perception because I'm at that age when you begin to notice what goes on around you and actually pay attention to the news? I'm not referring specifically to killings, or "terrorist" attacks, but rather elevated worldwide social upheaval in general (including said terrorist attacks, riots, and the like). It's just that from a few years up to now I've heard of a lot happening all over the place.


----------



## Jakke (May 24, 2013)

OMG ILLUMINATI NWO FALSE FLAGS!!


----------



## Alberto7 (May 24, 2013)




----------



## Rook (May 24, 2013)

I'd say personally its the latter. I think social media and the internet gives stuff a lot more exposure and potentially support than 10 years ago which makes everything look a lot bigger and scarier than it is.

I'm bipolar, in case I haven't mentioned that several times already but its relevant , I had an epic crash when I was 16 and at that time I, like you said, had started reading more and more into news and was a lot more aware, and the more and more obsessed with it I got the more I felt like the whole world was this mass of conflict and war and hatred and all this horrendous stuff was happening everywhere and blah blah blah, but the fact is newspapers are thing people sell, good news isn't news, people only ever want to read about bad stuff, and actually if you scale everything back to relative numbers of people stuff looks smaller and smaller and smaller.

One man in the UK out of 64 million was killed on home turf in the name of terrorism, as horrific and awfully sad as that is, I like those odds.



Is that what you were asking?


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## Alberto7 (May 24, 2013)

^ Yeah, pretty much! Those are my thoughts, too, but I had never really asked that question, so I wanted to know if I was the only one . I'm also at a point where I'm shifting from a very cynical view of the world (that people are bad and "lost-my-hopes-in-humanity" kind of thinking) to a more positive one, so that's one reason why I asked as well. It's sparked some thought in me for the past few months.

Like you said, the odds of things like these happening are so low, that they actually just feel perfectly normal and natural... that is, until they happen to you. It's hard to keep levelheaded in such cases, but your ability (or inability) to keep your cool doesn't make it more or less probable. It's a concept that also ties in with the whole "islamophobia" thing, as we tend to see something that ONE person did, make an emotional and precipitated judgement out of it, and then generalize it to everyone else of his/her kind. Oh, and I didn't know about your disorder! I take it that's part of what prompted you to become aware of global events and politics in general? Thanks for sharing that.


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## Rook (May 24, 2013)

No, it didn't necessarily make me want to be aware of global events, I locked myself away for a few weeks and had a laptop, I may have been depressed but it apparently didn't stop me getting bored, doing what I did was a horrible idea.

Now it's just every thing in moderation. Or as close to moderation as I can manage.

To keep this on topic though, I agree about 'until it happens to you', the first time I'd ever had any kind of uncomfortable or dodgy situation, I was in London on Northumberland Avenue and a bus hit a cyclist and set him flying and tried to make a dash and I remember thinking to myself 'Oh shit, this is one of those moments where you find out how you react to a situation'. It wasn't a terrorist attack or even close but that thought was over in a flash, before I'd even had time to verbalise in my mind *this is what I'm going to do* I'd jumped onto the platform on the side of the bus (wasn't going anywhere fast, this is London).

You really don't know how you're gunna react to any out-of-the-ordinary situation, I would hardly look unfavourably on people keeping their distance from an angry, blood soaked man holding not one but two knives standing over a mutilated corpse.


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## Sunyata (May 24, 2013)

Fat-Elf said:


> Ugh, I'm not even starting this debate. Just remember that "I told you" when you are forced to turn muslim, if you're "lucky" enough to even be alive anymore. F*ck immigration, Europe for Europeans, suck it poor people. Period.



I'm the one who gave you the paranoid bigot rep. I regret doing so and sincerely apologize for so grossly understating your xenophobia and idiocy. 

You are seriously the lowest of the low, and more than deserving of the dystopian imaginary sharia-ruled hell you preach about. Fortunately for you it wont happen...


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## Friendroid (May 24, 2013)

Jakke said:


> OMG ILLUMINATI NWO FALSE FLAGS!!


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## Don Vito (May 24, 2013)

Alberto7 said:


> ^ Yeah, pretty much! Those are my thoughts, too, but I had never really asked that question, so I wanted to know if I was the only one . I'm also at a point where I'm shifting from a very cynical view of the world (that people are bad and "lost-my-hopes-in-humanity" kind of thinking) to a more positive one, so that's one reason why I asked as well. It's sparked some thought in me for the past few months.


Same.



Rook said:


> I'd say personally its the latter. I think social media and the internet gives stuff a lot more exposure and potentially support than 10 years ago which makes everything look a lot bigger and scarier than it is.


Ditto.


I don't have much to add other than that I became a cynical bastard upon discovering the internet. I've realized that many of the things people post don't actually effect me, so I've started using the computer less and less, and trying not to worry so much about the world I will probably never see, and instead, pay attention to my own surroundings.


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## Nyx Erebos (May 24, 2013)

For those who think that islamists are going to cast the whole world and mars into the islamic law just little thought for you : WWII was caused by developped countries that had the support of their population and righteousness won nethertheless. And now you're telling me that you're scared of frightened populations that left their countries to survive ? Yeah you didn't know, the majority of the immigrants are not extremists, they just want to live. But the terrorists will get into your country even if you close your borders.

I know taking WWII as an example is not a proper reasoning but it puts things in perspective.

And if you want to say that they have nothing to do in our countries go check your history (and I'm not even talking about the slavery past). In many of those countries we ("developped" countries) are those who made it a mess. We took their ressources and we gave them weapons to facilitate the instability to put dictators in command. Even today with Syria, we're all sitting on our western asses because China and Russia don't feel like getting bachar al assad out of business. I'm maybe paranoid but with the US, France or UK (don't spit at me I'm not going to list everyone) which have some of the finest special forces, it seems very unlikely that we can't take care of someone who inaugurate schools. I really think that western countries are trying to find a way to put someone that will accept to talk with them. The funny thing is that the next Syrian president will be either a politician choosed by us or an extremist with powerful support that will want to kill everything that is not muslim. And the humans that are dying to get back their country will have nothing to say about that (it's not really true because even though the islamists got to lead Egypt, egyptian people are still pretty angry).


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## estabon37 (May 24, 2013)

This is such a saddening story, both for the victim of the violence and his family, and for the offenders, who have obviously been convinced of a narrative that, to them, justifies murdering a fellow human being to make a statement about some of the admittedly terrible things that Western governments are either allowing or providing supplies for.

Speaking of being convinced of particular narratives, I'm very glad to see that most of the people posting here are not convinced of the stupid links to immigration that have been drawn in the wake of this attack, as well as in the wake of the Boston bombings. Here is Aus, politicians, political pundits, and many in the media have been using immigration as a scapegoat for years, connecting it with almost any societal ill. Please don't give your governments and media an excuse to push that narrative. Australia has been putting hundreds of asylum seekers - innocent people trying to escape harsh conditions in their home countries - in detention camps off the Australian mainland, against UN human rights conventions. It does nothing to fight the problems in the homelands of refugees, and it hasn't so far made Australia less appealing to people smugglers, who are the real criminals. There are plenty of loudmouthed ....tards on television, radio and in government who use these events to push an unrelated agenda, and I think for once we should ask them nicely to jam it up their urethras, or female urethran equivalents. Piss holes, I guess.

EDIT: I just noticed that I've used this post to push an agenda in Australia based on events in London. For the sake of trying to be reasonable, balanced, and not distract from the main argument, I redact my points, and will willingly jam it up my urethra. Ouch.


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## Genome (May 25, 2013)

Wow.

Reading some people's opinions on here, those tweets, and some posts on my Facebook feed (subsequently culled), I am shocked.

I'm ashamed to share a planet with you intolerant bigots. I might emigrate to another one.


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## Rook (May 25, 2013)

@Estabon; I agree actually, it's a weird situation in Australia and one a few people I know have held up to me as 'see, this is why it doesn't happen in Aus', two which often respond with the usual convict joke 

I agree also that its sad that these guys have been persuaded in some way, that they've rationalised killing another human, that's just the amazing thing to me.






Also, women have urethrae.


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## Basti (May 25, 2013)

Maybe we should get up and leave just to see how long these bigots last without immigrants.


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## vampiregenocide (May 25, 2013)

Rook said:


> Tensions have not been building since the riots



I disagree, though I was talking in a broader context than just Non-Muslims v Muslims.


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## Friendroid (May 25, 2013)

No religion will make me cover up women with black rags. I love Spring and cleavage!


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## Captain Shoggoth (May 25, 2013)

I HATE to be _that guy_ but this is relevant discussion how?


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## fps (May 25, 2013)

Jakke said:


> It seems to be quite the problem in Britain, the guy who blew himself up here had been radicalized in Britain as well.



The people of this country marched against being involved in the war which has recruited these confused and stupid people, and our government fabricated lies to involve us. We didn't want any of this, and our politicians failed us.


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## Alberto7 (May 25, 2013)

Captain Shoggoth said:


> I HATE to be _that guy_ but this is relevant discussion how?



The discussion about immigration? You're asking how that's relevant to what happened in London?
It's relevant in many ways, actually. As soon as it happened, and as soon as the video of a dark-skinned man with a soldier's blood on his hands started to circulate, the immigration issue was brought up by many groups who oppose immigration, and followers started a shitstorm over that. That's important because immigration levels are quite high in the United Kingdom, and it's events like this one (events that really are one-offs, but spark such commotion that the public sees them as a bigger threat than getting hurt in car accident) that shape immigration laws and determine a nation's views on immigrants.

I hope I understood what you were asking.


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## Captain Shoggoth (May 26, 2013)

Ah, sorry-was referring to this post:



Friendroid said:


> No religion will make me cover up women with black rags. I love Spring and cleavage!


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## Alberto7 (May 26, 2013)

^ Ah okay. Sorry for addressing the wrong issue! Still though, the guy supposedly carried out his dirty deed in the name of Islam, so it is bound that discussion and even hate will arise regarding the perpetrator's belief system. With that said, said hate and discussion are quite ridiculous, since Islam extremists don't represent any significant percentage of the Muslim population.


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## Treeunit212 (May 26, 2013)

Not sure if it's been posted yet. I sure do hope at least some of you follow The Daily Beast for all things news.

The Woman Who Stood Up to the Woolwich Butchers - The Daily Beast


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## Captain Shoggoth (May 26, 2013)

Alberto7 said:


> ^ Ah okay. Sorry for addressing the wrong issue! Still though, the guy supposedly carried out his dirty deed in the name of Islam, so it is bound that discussion and even hate will arise regarding the perpetrator's belief system. With that said, said hate and discussion are quite ridiculous, since Islam extremists don't represent any significant percentage of the Muslim population.



Speaking as an agnostic from a large and entirely Muslim family, I can corroborate my statement with fact.

They're just people like you, I went to see the new Star Trek today with three of them


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## Alberto7 (May 26, 2013)

^ Ah, don't worry, I lived in the Middle East for 7 years myself . Some of my closest friends are Muslim, and their family are like family to me, too. My opinion isn't any different from yours, it seems. I used to go clubbing with them, I'd get drunk with them, we'd sneak out at night, and we'd incorporate lines from Pineapple Express into our everyday language . Stereotypical teenagers doing stupid things, like any other black, white, Christian, Buddhist, whatever teenager. Saying that Muslims are different from any other person is an utterly ridiculous statement.

Religion does play a role in the case of the Woolwich assassination, but only as an excuse for one little sad and unhappy individual. It could have been a Christian, or a member of the WBC just the same. Blaming an entire religion for this is ludicrous. Blame the man and his criminal network, catch him and put him in jail the rest of his life, but do not take his motives and generalize them to an entire population. It's just rational.


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## Grand Moff Tim (May 27, 2013)

There are 1,570,000,000 muslims in the world. 1,569,999,998 of them have never hacked a man to death on the streets of London.


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## Jakke (May 27, 2013)

This seems like an innherently kumbaya-line, but I do believe that most religions has something that makes it a problem. 
-Christianity is of course extremely wide-spread in the world, which might have a normalizing effect on batshittery.
-Judaism has had a history of persecution, so any sane individual questioning othodoxes throwing feces at children can be silenced by being called an antisemite, and "just out to finish what Hitler started".
-Buddhism has had a very positive image in the west, due mainly to positive orientalism. This makes it hard for people to take buddhist violence seriously, western buddhists are also sometimes very defensive on the infallibility of their faith.
-And islam, which everyone is contorting to show is not a problem here. I do believe that islam is a problem here (islam, not muslims. I wouldn't hold christians responsible for what they believe either), and here's why... To understand why I think islam is problematic, one have to consider how the holy books were written; the Bible, and the old testament for the jews out there, were written by men inspired by the spirit of God. Because of this, there is a possibility to interpret the text.
The Quran on the other hand, was written by Allah possessing Muhammed. This makes the Quran the words of an actual god. This god is of course unchanging and eternal, that means that his words are that too. This in turn means that there is no interpreting the Quran, what is written there is set in stone, be it about killing jews, unbelievers, or that women only have half the value of men. Because of this, it seems like islam has a greater risk for fundamentalism, and that is something that muslims will have to work with if they want to live in secular western democracies.


I would also like to direct your attention to Surah Muhammad (47:4)
"Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens."
And Surah 8 (8:12)
"I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger."

Like it or not, this is what it says in their holy book.


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## chimp_spanner (May 27, 2013)

I think most of us would agree that these nutters are in the minority. But there are two points I'd like to make; firstly that it's dangerous to be even-handed by default in our assessment of threat/risk in order to avoid offence. Yeah it could've been a WBC member or a Christian but it wasn't, and these days it rarely is. I hope that doesn't come across wrong. I'm just saying that if this was a group/movement/whatever with non-religious motivation, we'd be far quicker to identify them as an enemy. Religious sensitivity (and just a hint of curiously fashionable self-hate) has us tip toeing around the issue, and this isn't just limited to Islam btw. I should probably mention that I'm an atheist so ya know, I'm an equal opportunities hater  Nothing should be beyond criticism. Least of all something that someone has CHOSEN to believe.

Secondly, the much talked about moderate minority are at risk of becoming irrelevant precisely because they're moderate. These two guys, for as crazy as they are, are intensely passionate in their belief. If they're willing to strap bombs on themselves or hack a man to death in broad daylight, it's going to take much more than harsh words from handful of clerics and community leaders on TV to stop it. I'm not saying everyone should go bat shit insane. But we've all seen Muslims demonstrate in vast numbers against cartoons, offensive movie trailers on YouTube, books criticizing Islam, whatever. Well now's the time to show some solidarity. Come out on the streets, stand shoulder to shoulder with the rest of us and make it impossible for would-be murderers and martyrs and hate preachers to so much as fart in their communities without being singled out. In other words, make life very, very difficult for them. If they can't/won't do that, then we need to have a discussion as to why. Muslims across the world should be at *least* as furious at the distortion of their faith as they would be at a picture of their prophet or the burning of a book.

I hope all of this comes across right. I just can't stand the over-sensitivity and the reluctance to speak openly and candidly without being labelled "racist" (which as others have pointed out is so totally retarded). I'm sick of living in a country where a UK hating troll like Anjem Choudary is afforded the same rights as a law abiding British Muslim family. Anyone who would seek to radicalize young Muslims and drive them towards acts of terror should be removed from our society; they've forfeited the rights it affords them. Sometimes I think it's right to say "you're wrong". We're deadlocked by political correctness. While we all sit and talk and figure out the politest way to accommodate all views equally, there is a small number of dangerously fanatical people figuring out ways to maim and kill for their belief. Sooner or later we're going to have to get real and be honest about what's at stake, and I think a good place to start is learning to be comfortable with having pride in our identity and our values without the fear of being branded a bigot.


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## Jakke (May 27, 2013)

chimp_spanner said:


> I hope all of this comes across right.



It certainly did


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## Captain Shoggoth (May 27, 2013)

Totally agree with Paul. The way forward for Muslims GLOBALLY, not least in the secular West, is to be able to hold other Muslims accountable and show solidarity with other law-abiding peoples.

On the reasons for killing, something that's quite obvious but not touched upon enough is perpetrator background. Often the men who do these things are both troubled; from abusive families, or involved in gang crime (or both), AND are new converts to the faith, so have an intense passion for Islam and are willing to do anything for themselves.

Combining troubled backgrounds and violent/extreme tendencies with intense religious fervor and the need to prove themselves is an INCREDIBLY volatile combination-if the government wants to keep a close watch on any kind of Muslims, the only kind that seems to both make a fair amount of sense and be in accordance with general existing guidelines of law is to be ex-convict or ex-gang member new converts to the faith


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## Alberto7 (May 27, 2013)

I like the points Paul and Jakke bring to the table now. I probably wouldn't have been able to state them like that.

Jakke is right about the Qur'an being the literal word of God. This is something I've discussed before with one of my closest friends (he's Muslim). I had never given much thought to it, however, and what Jakke is saying makes sense. That said said, I think a lot of people either still interpret the Qur'an in their own way, or they don't seem to follow it very closely at all. Then again, I can't comment on how generalized that behavior is across the Muslim world without making assumptions. I only know firsthand about my circle of friends and my own little bubble that I created while living in the Middle East. Obviously, extremists don't think that way, and it's easy to see how, with the Qur'an being claimed as the literal word of God, a larger portion of the population (when compared to other religions) would have more extremist views.

What Paul said about not being afraid of being objective and calling out where one sees a wrong being done (classifying as 'wrong' the things that go against our current society's most basic ethical views) is possibly the smartest thing anyone's said about the issue. I'm sad it hasn't, so far, lent itself to reality very well.

(Forgive my grammar/formatting, guys. I'm posting this from my phone)


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## anunnaki (May 30, 2013)

I don't understand when David Cameron says that the attack has no basis in Islam, but the murderer clearly quoted some verses from the quran as his inspiration for the attack. I wonder if David Cameron has read the quran....

In other news, some islamic extremists in a prison in england attempt to kill a prison guard.

Full Sutton Prison Guard 'Beaten By Inmates'


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## CrushingAnvil (Jun 4, 2013)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> There are 1,570,000,000 muslims in the world. 1,569,999,998 of them have never hacked a man to death on the streets of London.



Islam is, what, 1400 years old? There have been many more hundreds-of-thousands of Muslims who have done equally atrocious things and there are Muslims alive today who either have done, are in the middle of doing, or will do terrible things with Islam being their number one motivation. Don't hate the player, hate the game (sounds lame but it's totally applicable here). Ignoring the violent shit the Q'uran or the Holy Bible or the Korah says is dangerous territory. People are scared to say the problem is Islam and instead say it's 'extremism'...but Islam seems to be the only system of belief which is inspiring these kinds of horrors. To me, moderate Muslims are dormant martyrs. This isn't about black people; nor is it about Iranians, or Iraqis, or Afghans, or Syrians, Chechens, or even Georgians or Azerbaijanis - this is about Islam.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Jun 4, 2013)

CrushingAnvil said:


> Islam is, what, 1400 years old? There have been many more hundreds-of-thousands of Muslims who have done equally atrocious things and there are Muslims alive today who either have done, are in the middle of doing, or will do terrible things with Islam being their number one motivation. Don't hate the player, hate the game (sounds lame but it's totally applicable here). Ignoring the violent shit the Q'uran or the Holy Bible or the Korah says is dangerous territory. People are scared to say the problem is Islam and instead say it's 'extremism'...but Islam seems to be the only system of belief which is inspiring these kinds of horrors. To me, moderate Muslims are dormant martyrs. This isn't about black people; nor is it about Iranians, or Iraqis, or Afghans, or Syrians, Chechens, or even Georgians or Azerbaijanis - this is about Islam.



I'd never try to pretend that those two muslims are the only ones to have ever committed an act of violence, and that wasn't my point. It was more directed towards the idea of people in London/England reacting to the events and any possible backlash against the muslim population in its entirety, similar to what we saw from many Americans after 9/11.

I'm going to go out on a limb (and feel free to cry foul that I have no links to back me up) and say that, even taking in to account every act of violence committed by a muslim throughout the course of history, the number of muslims who have committed them is still going to be a significant minority of the entire muslim population. 

Islam may have been their motivation for doing it and therefore you could say that, in those situations, "islam was the problem," rather than extremism, but what of all the muslims who AREN'T driven to do such things by islam? What do you suggest be done about it? Should we be suspicious of all muslims because a huge minority of them are shitheads? Are there measures that need to be put in place to control it/them? I'm really not sure what point people have when railing about how islam is the problem.


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## flint757 (Jun 4, 2013)

Blaming all Muslims is like blaming all Christians for Westboro's atrocities, like blaming all Jews for a financial crisis, like blaming all metal heads for the few shithead ones, etc. Saying someone who is moderate or passive is just as guilty as the extremists is also like saying your neighbor is just as guilty as the guy who robbed you for your house being robbed at all. I can't think of any circumstance where just making broad, sweeping generalizations can be deemed 100% true. Lot of people in Europe really hate Muslims. 



CrushingAnvil said:


> Islam is, what, 1400 years old? There have been many more hundreds-of-thousands of Muslims who have done equally atrocious things and there are Muslims alive today who either have done, are in the middle of doing, or will do terrible things with Islam being their number one motivation. Don't hate the player, hate the game (sounds lame but it's totally applicable here). Ignoring the violent shit the Q'uran or the Holy Bible or the Korah says is dangerous territory. People are scared to say the problem is Islam and instead say it's 'extremism'...but Islam seems to be the only system of belief which is inspiring these kinds of horrors. To me, moderate Muslims are dormant martyrs. This isn't about black people; nor is it about Iranians, or Iraqis, or Afghans, or Syrians, Chechens, or even Georgians or Azerbaijanis - this is about Islam.



Same can be said about a lot of other groups and individuals who's reasoning is not based in Islam.


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## CrushingAnvil (Jun 4, 2013)

flint757 said:


> Blaming all Muslims is like blaming all Christians for Westboro's atrocities, like blaming all Jews for a financial crisis, like blaming all metal heads for the few shithead ones, etc. Saying someone who is moderate or passive is just as guilty as the extremists is also like saying your neighbor is just as guilty as the guy who robbed you for your house being robbed at all. I can't think of any circumstance where just making broad, sweeping generalizations can be deemed 100% true. Lot of people in Europe really hate Muslims.
> 
> 
> 
> Same can be said about a lot of other groups and individuals who's reasoning is not based in Islam.



I hope you aren't accusing me of making 'broad, sweeping generalizations'. 

1. I never blamed Muslims
2. I never pinned the crime on all Muslims, I just said that it doesn't seem to take much to turn a moderate Muslim into a Jihad martyr.


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## CrushingAnvil (Jun 4, 2013)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> I'd never try to pretend that those two muslims are the only ones to have ever committed an act of violence, and that wasn't my point. It was more directed towards the idea of people in London/England reacting to the events and any possible backlash against the muslim population in its entirety, similar to what we saw from many Americans after 9/11.
> 
> I'm going to go out on a limb (and feel free to cry foul that I have no links to back me up) and say that, even taking in to account every act of violence committed by a muslim throughout the course of history, the number of muslims who have committed them is still going to be a significant minority of the entire muslim population.
> 
> Islam may have been their motivation for doing it and therefore you could say that, in those situations, "islam was the problem," rather than extremism, but what of all the muslims who AREN'T driven to do such things by islam? What do you suggest be done about it? Should we be suspicious of all muslims because a huge minority of them are shitheads? Are there measures that need to be put in place to control it/them? I'm really not sure what point people have when railing about how islam is the problem.



I'm not suggesting at all that we/they should implement some sort of 'Minority Report'-type preemptive system of justice. I'm just saying, like most religions, the system of faith - the religion itself, needs to die out soon or be destroyed by the rational thinkers in this word who have access to the spotlight.


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## flint757 (Jun 4, 2013)

It'd certainly be nice if religion took a few steps back from the spotlight, but that will be an incredibly slow process and it seems there is a consistent push back that happens every so often and the process starts all over again.

I wasn't accusing you of anything. Although you are making a bit of an assumption to say that it doesn't take much to turn moderate Muslims into extremists. Oddly enough I go to a school with a lot of Muslim kids and none of them seem extreme or violent. They are just normal people.


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## CrushingAnvil (Jun 4, 2013)

Captain Shoggoth said:


> Totally agree with Paul. The way forward for Muslims GLOBALLY, not least in the secular West, is to be able to *hold other Muslims accountable* and show solidarity with other law-abiding peoples.
> 
> On the reasons for killing, something that's quite obvious but not touched upon enough is perpetrator background. Often the men who do these things are both troubled; from abusive families, or involved in gang crime (or both), AND are new converts to the faith, so have an intense passion for Islam and are willing to do anything for themselves.
> 
> Combining troubled backgrounds and violent/extreme tendencies with intense religious fervor and the need to prove themselves is an INCREDIBLY volatile combination-if the government wants to keep a close watch on any kind of Muslims, the only kind that seems to both make a fair amount of sense and be in accordance with general existing guidelines of law is to be ex-convict or ex-gang member new converts to the faith



Why not hold the scripture and dogma accountable?


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## CrushingAnvil (Jun 4, 2013)

flint757 said:


> It'd certainly be nice if religion took a few steps back from the spotlight, but that will be an incredibly slow process and it seems there is a consistent push back that happens every so often and the process starts all over again.
> 
> I wasn't accusing you of anything. Although you are making a bit of an assumption to say that it doesn't take much to turn moderate Muslims into extremists. Oddly enough I go to a school with a lot of Muslim kids and none of them seem extreme or violent. They are just normal people.



I've met Muslims who did seem just completely normal. They seemed like the "meh, we just grew up with this shit" kind, so yeah I guess I was misrepresenting people like that. The whole world needs to ask itself, "if we hadn't been brought up in/with x-religion, would be choose it as rational adults?" - that's why the problem is Islam and not the people who were brought up in it. I just thought I'd make it clear that I don't hold it as rational to blame Muslims instead of Islam. Given Jakob/Jakke's post complete with Q'uran quotes, the scriptures and the 'holy' texts are _obviously_ the problem. How can you just ignore a part of your religion that is as violent as that? For me that would warrant a complete renouncement of the religion. 

One of the last things I'll say is that we should be teaching critical thinking to children (it's wishful thinking to hope for Islamic states to implement something like that) very early in school. At least, that way, we would be creating non-religious theists (deists), agnostics, and atheists based on formally educating people with philosophy (don't get me started on the complete absence of philosophy in high schools).


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## Grand Moff Tim (Jun 4, 2013)

CrushingAnvil said:


> How can you just ignore a part of your religion that is as violent as that? For me that would warrant a complete renouncement of the religion.





CrushingAnvil said:


> At least, that way, we would be creating non-religious theists (deists)



It seems slightly odd that you'd have a problem with people choosing not to accept the unsavory parts of their religious dogma based on modern reason, but you're fine with people choosing to become deists based on modern reason. As far as the impact on society is concerned, what's the difference?


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## CrushingAnvil (Jun 5, 2013)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> It seems slightly odd that *you'd have a problem with people choosing not to accept the unsavory parts of their religious dogma based on modern reason*, but you're fine with people choosing to become deists based on modern reason. As far as the impact on society is concerned, what's the difference?



That's the opposite of what I said, or at least what I meant 

My problem is with people pretending like those violent notions aren't in their religious text or acting as though it doesn't matter that they're in there anyway. 

I'm talking about philosophical inquiry creating non-religious people who either sub-scribe or don't subscribe to arguments for the existence of God (i.e. not the bearded-guy-in-the-sky Christian God).


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## hairychris (Jun 5, 2013)

CrushingAnvil said:


> ...the scriptures and the 'holy' texts are _obviously_ the problem. _How can you just ignore a part of your religion that is as violent as that?_ For me that would warrant a complete renouncement of the religion.



To be honest that's what most Christians do (I hope that you like my creative quoting, hehe). If they took their Bible as seriously as extremists did then we'd get similar incidents. Especially the Old testament, that's pretty WTF and genocide-happy. Plus the NT isn't all sweetness and light, "I come not to bring peace, but the sword", and the nonsense from St Paul who really doesn't like women....

Heck, I'm *glad* that most believers are hypocritical, certainly believers of the Abrahamic religions. It means that our society, and they personally, are better than the teachings in the holy books.

As I think I said earlier, it all goes wrong when folks start taking that stuff literally.


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## tedtan (Jun 5, 2013)

hairychris said:


> To be honest that's what most Christians do (I hope that you like my creative quoting, hehe). If they took their Bible as seriously as extremists did then we'd get similar incidents.


 
Ever heard of the crusades undertaken by the catholic church, the witch trials, the Spanish inquisition, etc. several hundred years back?


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## hairychris (Jun 5, 2013)

tedtan said:


> Ever heard of the crusades undertaken by the catholic church, the witch trials, the Spanish inquisition, etc. *several hundred years back*?



My entire point.

They don't have the power to pull that shit in our *modern* society. Not that it stops some of them from trying.


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## McKay (Jun 9, 2013)

tedtan said:


> Ever heard of the crusades undertaken by the catholic church, the witch trials, the Spanish inquisition, etc. several hundred years back?



I wish people would read about the crusades before using them to back whatever point they're trying to make. The first Crusade was as much a reconquest of 7th century Byzantine territory/rescue mission for Byzantine Anatolia as it was a war of aggression and it was much an Orthodox endeavor as a Catholic one.


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## Vinchester (Jun 9, 2013)

A good read on why contemporary Islam has huge potential for problems.
When Islam Breaks Down by Theodore Dalrymple, City Journal Spring 2004

The writer worked for many years as a psychiatrist in Birmingham and he has seen all sorts of mess-ups. He observed that the stress of living in a foreign land can make immigrants more devout, radical, and possible twisted because religion, especially a strict all-encompassing one as Islam, is the only sure thing in their life. 

As a foreign student in the UK, I have seen much of what Dalrymple said. Even one of my classmates is an unfortunate Pakistani girl who ran away from home and had to change her name to escape hired pursuers. Even while (or especially because) her life was screwed by her family's adherance to tradition, she is a devout muslim, quoting the Quran left and right. 

I think the reason she and many others escaped a cognitive dissonance is because religion is such a nebulous subject and there are endless ways to interpret and "personalize" it. People can and do confuse its tenets with their own optimism, their hope, love of their family and thus religion is inseparable and above criticism to them. This is especially dangerous with a religion that doesn't separate the church and state (secular matters and spiritual matters) 

I was saddened when I heard of the London killing, but at this point I don't think this will be the last.


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## vansinn (Jun 9, 2013)

Quote: Originally Posted by tedtan 
Ever heard of the crusades undertaken by the catholic church, the witch trials, the Spanish inquisition, etc. several hundred years back



hairychris said:


> My entire point.
> 
> They don't have the power to pull that shit in our *modern* society. Not that it stops some of them from trying.



The church most certainly does have such power.
The Vatican in an integral part of the top ruling elite. Just go check out the interior of the building and notice the upside-down crosses and the all-seeing-eye..

There's nothing as powerful as religion to control people.
Do note that the original christian scriptures consisted of more than twenty books, our coming into being documented in two books, generally (in some circles) referred to as Adam and Eve vol 1&2.

In the fourth century AC, these works were rewritten into just the bible, later modernized by emperor Augustus in (IIRC) 1546. And so forth..
Just notice how Reitzinger, the previous pope, a few years ago said "if you want salvation, do not go to God, but come to me".
He's a real close friend with Bush junior, BTW..

Also, as someone else mentioned Islam.. Don't remember when, but sometime in the past, the Vatican undermined Islam, because it was spreading more than what was liked, and simply managed to take this religion in a different direction.


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## Jakke (Jun 9, 2013)

vansinn said:


> The church most certainly does have such power.
> The Vatican in an integral part of the top ruling elite. Just go check out the interior of the building and notice the upside-down crosses and the all-seeing-eye..



FFS... Are you still at this?

Are you aware of something called paraedolia? It's the human tendency to notice patterns where there are none. The whole "Illuminati-all-seeing-eye-ruling-elite" idea is almost completely based on paraedolia and interpreting common artistic traits from a certain period as "100% PROOF THAT THEY RULE THE WORLD MAN!!!".
(And they've got cars that run on water, water man!)

Now, the eye of providence is a very common christian symbol, it represents God's watchful eye over humanity. With this information, would you be surprised that the Vatican is lousy with them? Or is it just easier to throw out half-baked statements in a "I got you now!!!"-way? 

I have one on a guitar, I haz Illuminati? 

What is your proof that this is a symbol for the ruling secret elite? 

Or maybe (if I may) it's just a case of confirmation bias, namely that your kind *know* that the Federal Bank and the Vatican is in on it, and therefore "know" that the Eye of Providence *has* to be a secret handshake of the Illuminati. I suppose it wouldn't convince you that there has been no evidence of the Illuminati surviving the 17:th century? Well, apart from the odd badly edited youtube video by a paranoid neck-beard with an internet connection.


Vansinn is a great user name for you, but as a Swede, I'd add an -e to the end.


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## vansinn (Jun 10, 2013)

^ I'm well aware of the peaceful history of said symbolism.
As you correctly state, it's misuse dates back to the 17th century, but nevertheless, last time I checked, it's still on the flip side of the one dollar bill..

WRT what is evidenced or not, I think it fair to say that unwanted knowledge tends to be kept hidden. As such, documenting or posting about such tends to result in ridicule, weather it's true or not.

And no need to post personal unpleasanties just because I voice my opinions on a forum. I'll keep off this subboard for the same reason..


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## Jakke (Jun 10, 2013)

vansinn said:


> ^ I'm well aware of the peaceful history of said symbolism.
> As you correctly state, it's misuse dates back to the 17th century, but nevertheless, last time I checked, it's still on the flip side of the one dollar bill..



You are of course refering to the Freemasons' usage of said symbol. I should also mention that my grandfather was a mason, so I suppose I'm a desinformation agent, or something.

The thing is that the Eye of Providence on the dollar bill is purely for religious reasons, as the masons would not adopt the eye as a symbol until 14 years after the bill was designed.

But even so, what does it being on the dollar bill signify to you? Is this kabal evil and secretive, but still show their hand by throwing incriminating symbols everywhere so that brave men with an internet-connection like yourself can expose it all on youtube?




vansinn said:


> WRT what is evidenced or not, I think it fair to say that unwanted knowledge tends to be kept hidden. As such, documenting or posting about such tends to result in ridicule, weather it's true or not.



Or if the views simply are ridiculous. You are not Galileo, people do not speak up against you because they are "afraid of the truth", they speak up against you because you claim a lot of things without any evidence to support it.



vansinn said:


> And no need to post personal unpleasanties just because I voice my opinions on a forum. I'll keep off this subboard for the same reason..



No unpleasantness from me, I do believe that the view that a secret kabal is ruling everything is vansinnig (I feel so jewish when I add words from my own language to English), and I do believe, and I have observational evidence for this, that conspiracy theories are rife with confirmation bias.

Get me some empirical evidence, and I will consider your position.


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## chimp_spanner (Jun 15, 2013)

hairychris said:


> My entire point.
> 
> They don't have the power to pull that shit in our *modern* society. Not that it stops some of them from trying.



Yeah man, see it seems to me that most mainstream religions may be benign, peaceful and tolerant now but - correct me if I'm wrong - they have secularists/atheists/skeptics to thank for it, for daring to challenge, question and criticize. Left to its own devices, I kinda doubt religion would be so self examining. As it is, it's basically had no choice but to change in order to stay relevant (and then take credit for it, naturally ). I'm not saying there's no such thing as a questioning theist, although I'd imagine the more they question, the further they move from congregational religion and perhaps towards a more private/personal sense of spirituality or something. But yeah when there was nothing BUT religion, life was very difficult and dangerous for anyone who had ideas that ran contrary to the establishment. As you'd expect it to be. I mean how do you argue with authority derived from God? You don't.

This is also why I find the moderate vs. extremist argument to be redundant. They're different sides of the same coin. Once you go deep enough, there will be differences between faiths that are so fundamental they can't be reconciled. Not without someone admitting "okay, maybe my holy book/my God was wrong on this one". Aint gonna happen. Ever. 

Nothing should be beyond criticism. Nothing should be unquestionable. And I'm highly distrustful of anyone who tries to tell me otherwise.


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## Captain Shoggoth (Jun 15, 2013)

McKay said:


> I wish people would read about the crusades before using them to back whatever point they're trying to make. The first Crusade was as much a reconquest of 7th century Byzantine territory/rescue mission for Byzantine Anatolia as it was a war of aggression and it was much an Orthodox endeavor as a Catholic one.




C1st was basically Pope Urban II hijacking the Byzantine plea for help (they didn't really give shit back to them, and the emperor Alexius actually turned back (albeit on the advice of Stephen of Blois who wrongly stated that the Crusade had failed during the siege of Antioch) and never even went to Jerusalem.

Urban used it to solidify Gregorian reform in the church (ie a return to honourable asceticism amongst the clergy and an emphasis of the Church having power over secular kings, NOT the other way around (amongst other issues as well)) and to get all of the various knights kicking the shit out of each other in Europe to go and kick the shit out of some foreign infidels.


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## Dan (Jun 18, 2013)

ITT: (essentially)








BACK ON TOPIC:

Everything can be solved with a nice cup of tea:

York mosque counters EDL protest with tea, biscuits and football | UK news | guardian.co.uk

_"A York mosque dealt with a potentially volatile situation after reports that it was going to be the focus of a demonstration organised by a far-right street protest movement - by inviting those taking part in the protest in for tea and biscuits._

_Around half a dozen people arrived for the protest, promoted online by supporters of the EDL. A St George's flag was nailed to the wooden fence in front of the mosque._

_However, after members of the group accepted an invitation into the mosque, tensions were rapidly defused over tea and plates of custard creams, followed by an impromptu game of football."_


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## skisgaar (Jun 18, 2013)

Dan said:


> ITT:
> 
> _However, after members of the group accepted an invitation into the mosque, tensions were rapidly defused over tea and plates of custard creams, followed by an impromptu game of football."_


 
Too good. Too good 

I'm no fan of Islam, Christianity or religion in general, but this shows that the majority of the EDL are pretty much children.


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