# Andy James and Kiesel Guitars



## -JeKo- (Feb 15, 2018)

AJ is Kiesel's new artist! They even offer Evertune now as Andy wanted it on his guitars.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BfN1gY3Hu9I/?taken-by=andyjamesguitar
https://www.instagram.com/p/BfN1gY3Hu9I/?taken-by=andyjamesguitar


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## couverdure (Feb 15, 2018)

Top 10 Anime Betrayals

He just released a new ESP/LTD signature model with a new finish and an EverTune bridge and the next minute he dropped them for Kiesel? Endorsement switches makes me very confused every time it happens.

Looking at those Instagram, I'm surprised many of his fans are Kiesel fanboys and none of them seem to be disappointed by his departure, which strikes as very odd to me.


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## diagrammatiks (Feb 15, 2018)

couverdure said:


> Top 10 Anime Betrayals
> 
> He just released a new ESP/LTD signature model with a new finish and an EverTune bridge and the next minute he dropped them for Kiesel? Endorsement switches makes me very confused every time it happens.




Why. Do you have the mental capacity of a small monkey?


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## couverdure (Feb 15, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> Why. Do you have the mental capacity of a small monkey?


I assumed he had renewed his contract when he was about to release his new model since his signatures have always been just a black 6/7-string fixed bridge Horizon with the Forest headstock equipped with EMGs, as well as that E-II Eclipse model, which are nothing new from the typical non-sig models. The new white one is the same since there are already ET-equipped models but at least it stands out more since it isn't black. It just feels weird that it happened all of a sudden.


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## cwhitey2 (Feb 15, 2018)

I pity this fool.


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## lewis (Feb 15, 2018)

Kiesel gets a bad rep on some QC and how much of a dick Jeff comes across BUT...their open mindedness on literally giving the artist whatever the hell they desire on their models, does make them desirable from a Sig guitar perspective lets be honest.

It does not exactly feel you with warm feelings inside if you are an endorsed artist, and you ask for features that in this day and age, are pretty common, only for the company to be like "Nah we aint doing that for you" *cough Ibanez cough*

Big statement this. I look forward to really seeing what he came up with.

*watch his Kiesel now look exactly the same as his ESP sig, with exactly same specs just to prove me wrong haha*


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## JD27 (Feb 15, 2018)

That’s a head scratcher right there.


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## Lorcan Ward (Feb 15, 2018)

Kiesel's endorsement is very beneficial to artists because they have huge social media presence and a near fanatical customer base that will follow you as result. That alone is what attracts most people. The mountain of constant decked out builds helps too along with them offering new options and specs instead of confining you to their limited ones if you are big enough.


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## GunpointMetal (Feb 15, 2018)

lewis said:


> Kiesel gets a bad rep on some QC and how much of a dick Jeff comes across BUT...their open mindedness on literally giving the artist whatever the hell they desire on their models, does make them desirable from a Sig guitar perspective lets be honest.


Unless you wanted anything over a 27" scale, a different location of the parallel fret on a FF, anything over 8 strings, etc...


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## technomancer (Feb 15, 2018)

So are Evertunes non-returnable? 

Sorry, seems like everything they introduce something different it is non-returnable or has a restocking fee equal to the price of the option (Fluence).


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## iamaom (Feb 15, 2018)

I think you guys should be thankful to Kiesel, complaints about them make up about half this forums activity.


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## JD27 (Feb 15, 2018)

technomancer said:


> So are Evertunes non-returnable?
> 
> Sorry, seems like everything they introduce something different it is non-returnable or has a restocking fee equal to the price of the option (Fluence).



What are you waiting for? Dial 858-GUITARS, join the family today, and find out.


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## mpexus (Feb 15, 2018)

Why do people get pissed when an Artist changes Endorsements? Who cares to be honest? If you like the said Artist its even the perfect excuse to go buy a new (same) guitar made by another Brand.


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## TheShreddinHand (Feb 15, 2018)

He did just finish touring with Chris Letchford who we all know has a Kiesel sig and Angel's guitarist played Kiesel as well.


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## feraledge (Feb 15, 2018)

What this boils down to is that all of their energy is going into artist relations instead of customer service. At least this isn't a well trodden path of every luthier-based scam bubble.


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## cwhitey2 (Feb 15, 2018)

feraledge said:


> What this boils down to is that all of their energy is going into artist relations instead of customer service. At least this isn't a well trodden path of every luthier-based scam bubble.



Couldn't agree more. They supposedly get all this business by having these artists then fuck over the people who actually pay for guitars...makes sense to me!


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## Vhyle (Feb 15, 2018)

feraledge said:


> What this boils down to is that all of their energy is going into artist relations instead of customer service. At least this isn't a well trodden path of every luthier-based scam bubble.



Winner winner chicken dinner.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 15, 2018)

Should have stuck with ESP.


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## Curt (Feb 15, 2018)

They also nabbed up another ex-ESP artist, Prashant Aswani.


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## feraledge (Feb 15, 2018)

Curt said:


> They also nabbed up another ex-ESP artist, Prashant Aswani.


I think he left quite a while ago.


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## ArtDecade (Feb 15, 2018)

It is business. Nothing personal. I'll bet the guys at ESP are still his *friend*.

See, Loomis leaving Schecter thread.


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## technomancer (Feb 15, 2018)

Curt said:


> They also nabbed up another ex-ESP artist, Prashant Aswani.



Which is hilarious since I'm on a Facebook group with the guy and he has never posted anything Kiesel. ESPs, Suhrs, Fenders, Gibsons yep. Never a Kiesel.


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## lewstherin006 (Feb 15, 2018)

technomancer said:


> So are Evertunes non-returnable?
> 
> Sorry, seems like everything they introduce something different it is non-returnable or has a restocking fee equal to the price of the option (Fluence).



standard feature opt 50?


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## spudmunkey (Feb 15, 2018)

technomancer said:


> Which is hilarious since I'm on a Facebook group with the guy and he has never posted anything Kiesel. ESPs, Suhrs, Fenders, Gibsons yep. Never a Kiesel.



On his own page, his last two videos where he's playing his Kiesel Solo and Kiesel Zeus.


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## technomancer (Feb 15, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> On his own page, his last two videos where he's playing his Kiesel Solo and Kiesel Zeus.



Weird I see it is shared on his music page but he hasn't posted the videos to the groups I'm on with him. It's also not on his personal page, but that's where the other vids I was talking about are


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 15, 2018)

If he doesn't tour much I can see this being a really good move.


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## wannabguitarist (Feb 15, 2018)

cwhitey2 said:


> Couldn't agree more. They supposedly get all this business by having these artists *then fuck over the people who actually pay for guitars*...makes sense to me!



I know Kiesel has a bad customer service track record on this forum, but the idea that they're running some sort of scam or BRJ-esq ponzi scheme is just absurd . They're actually fairly nice guitars and outside of this forum there seems to be a sizable happy fanbase


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 15, 2018)

wannabguitarist said:


> I know Kiesel has a bad customer service track record on this forum, but the idea that they're running some sort of scam or BRJ-esq ponzi scheme is just absurd . They're actually fairly nice guitars and outside of this forum there seems to be a sizable happy fanbase



They have about as many flaws as most in the same class, and what you're quoting is pure hyperbole.

But having a happy fan base isn't an indicator of overall customer service. It's especially telling when they prune issues off of thier social media and they've tried to silence posters on here. That alone should be a giant red flag.

That puts them in the same company as BRJ.


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## cwhitey2 (Feb 15, 2018)

wannabguitarist said:


> I know Kiesel has a bad customer service track record on this forum, but the idea that they're running some sort of scam or BRJ-esq ponzi scheme is just absurd . They're actually fairly nice guitars and outside of this forum there seems to be a sizable happy fanbase



I feel like we are actually extra critical...And that goes for every brand. The general public is probably just happy to get a guitar in general.

It's just amazing how quickly a company can go down hill. 


Ps I love my CARVIN.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 15, 2018)

There are so many guitar builders that when one starts to do genuinely shady things, I can't help but be turned off. 

You don't see that coming from the best.


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## wannabguitarist (Feb 15, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> They have about as many flaws as most in the same class, and what you're quoting is pure hyperbole.
> 
> But having a happy fan base isn't an indicator of overall customer service. It's especially telling when they prune issues off of thier social media and they've tried to silence posters on here. That alone should be a giant red flag.
> 
> That puts them in the same company as BRJ.



I love how they play, like how most of the models look, and they're a local business. If it wasn't for the customer service shit shows on here I'd own one, but those red flags are to hard to ignore.

That being said they're very different from BRJ in my eyes. Poor customer service and silencing complaints about quality is very different from running a fraudulent business. Neither is good, one is clearly worse.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 15, 2018)

I didn't say they're as bad as BRJ, but the list of builders who have come on here and have tried to silence legitimate complaints is very, very short and Kiesel and BRJ are both on it. 

If they want to bounce someone from thier own social media, that's bad enough, but to come here and try to enforce it is another level.


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## Metropolis (Feb 15, 2018)

Still way more nice than his ESP LTD's 
https://www.instagram.com/p/BfO9zLInXCg/?taken-by=andyjamesguitar


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 15, 2018)

Metropolis said:


> Still way more nice than his ESP LTD's
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BfO9zLInXCg/?taken-by=andyjamesguitar



Yeah, the Crescent is easily the best shape Kiesel has right now. Way underrated. 

The LTD sig line is pretty boring now, just HH Horizons with Evertunes.


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## Zalbu (Feb 15, 2018)

Man, I definitely wanted an Evertune on my Kiesel!

...said maybe 10 people on the planet, ever.

I wonder how popular his ESP sigs were, anyways? He just plays flat black or flat white Horizons with EMGs and Evertunes, I can't really see many people people paying just to get his logo on the fretboard.


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## wannabguitarist (Feb 15, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I didn't say they're as bad as BRJ, *but the list of builders who have come on here and have tried to silence legitimate complaints is very, very short and Kiesel and BRJ are both on it*.
> 
> If they want to bounce someone from thier own social media, that's bad enough, but to come here and try to enforce it is another level.



Got it. I read same level and thought "just as bad"


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## Metropolis (Feb 15, 2018)

Zalbu said:


> I wonder how popular his ESP sigs were, anyways? He just plays flat black or flat white Horizons with EMGs and Evertunes, I can't really see many people people paying just to get his logo on the fretboard.



Had one, but I bought it used, and it was one of the first ones with tune-o-matic bridge. Guess they were not really popular, and I noticed a significant price drop in them at some point. But that is not a surprise, because he's only known among (metal) guitarists who are intrested in shreddy instrumental side of heavy music.


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## feraledge (Feb 15, 2018)

I love Horizons, but definitely true that his sig was bland. Black or white, with the meh HRF headstock, otherwise pretty much exact same specs as the M/H1007 but a giant personalized inlay. He’s a truly great player, but the only way I would have owned one of those sigs is that it was a crazy deal. 
But is NAMM just going to be the time when everyone jumps ship from one company to another leaving production sigs in limbo? Kind of a dick move. Not that I know the background, but considering his updated models are still on the artist page it’s hard to buy this being amicable. Anyone have insights on exactly what Jeff is offering these guys?


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## Hollowway (Feb 15, 2018)

wannabguitarist said:


> I know Kiesel has a bad customer service track record on this forum, but the idea that they're running some sort of scam or BRJ-esq ponzi scheme is just absurd . They're actually fairly nice guitars and outside of this forum there seems to be a sizable happy fanbase



Yeah, I'd be inclined to feel the same way, but the scary thing is this is exactly the feeling we all had when BRJ was at his pinnacle. And Darren, of Decibel, specifically started his business with the intention of not doing this. Then did it.  And Siggery. And DAR. The list goes on. The truth is, when someone starts getting really popular, and getting a lot of endorsements, and their order times start slipping, it can go south fast. I doubt that would happen with Kiesel. But I say these things because we should never forget those who screwed us out of our hard earned thousands.


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## Curt (Feb 16, 2018)

technomancer said:


> Which is hilarious since I'm on a Facebook group with the guy and he has never posted anything Kiesel. ESPs, Suhrs, Fenders, Gibsons yep. Never a Kiesel.


He posted a couple videos and a picture pretty recently with them on his Instagram. That's how I figured it.


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Feb 16, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> Why. Do you have the mental capacity of a small monkey?



For as many disagreements as we’ve had, I always enjoy your bluntness.

Edit: This thread has far more precise and concise comments reading between the lines of business than I expected. I’d be tickled as hell to see this trend continue beyond this one brand, until the “our heroes are endorsement whores” reputation starts to fade.


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## oracles (Feb 16, 2018)

feraledge said:


> Anyone have insights on exactly what Jeff is offering these guys?



Four free guitars on signing and a 40% discount off orders placed after that.


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## BigViolin (Feb 16, 2018)

No 10 day trial though.


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## feraledge (Feb 16, 2018)

oracles said:


> Four free guitars on signing and a 40% discount off orders placed after that.


Wow, there’s no way that can be better than having a sig, unless that sig just wasn’t selling at all.


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## technomancer (Feb 16, 2018)

feraledge said:


> Wow, there’s no way that can be better than having a sig, unless that sig just wasn’t selling at all.



Yeah going to say sig revenue wasn't there or this makes no sense at all.


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 16, 2018)

I'm guessing nobody was buying his sig because of the inlay and the fact that it was pretty boring specs/color wise, even compared to other horizons in that price range.


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## Zado (Feb 16, 2018)

Weird, I thought he would have started his own brand.


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## cwhitey2 (Feb 16, 2018)

Maybe they didn't allow him to have ALL/ANY of the features he wanted (something other then evertune)


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## spudmunkey (Feb 16, 2018)

Zado said:


> Weird, I thought he would have started his own brand.



That definitely seems to be the mode du jour.


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## JD27 (Feb 16, 2018)

cwhitey2 said:


> Maybe they didn't allow him to have ALL/ANY of the features he wanted (something other then evertune)



Could be the case maybe. I didn't see a ton of changes in the guitars he got from Wiesel, I mean Kiesel. They did let Bill design an entire guitar shape from scratch though. Granted Mastodon is much larger and the sigs would likely sell more just for that reason.


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Feb 16, 2018)

Sigs don't pull much in revenue in general. Vai & Malmsteen are exceptions, but I know that ESP only makes up to a couple of a hundred LTD Sigs for a local Seattle endorsee who's been with them for over 30 years. There aren't "thousands" of these in rotation on the market, more like, "dozens" and sigs tend to sit on shelves a good while until they are marked down considerably.


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## cwhitey2 (Feb 16, 2018)

JD27 said:


> Could be the case maybe. *I didn't see a ton of changes in the guitars he got from Wiesel, I mean Kiesel*. They did let Bill design an entire guitar shape from scratch though. Granted Mastodon is much larger and the sigs would likely sell more just for that reason.



I died when I read this!!!!


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## Mathemagician (Feb 16, 2018)

It was basically a less interesting merrow sig.

The crescent is genuinely cooler. And at least it isn’t ugly rosewood. 

Honestly my crescent gas just went up another 1%. (Just with a more visually pleasing headstock.)


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## oc616 (Feb 16, 2018)

Mathemagician said:


> It was basically a less interesting merrow sig.
> 
> The crescent is genuinely cooler. And at least it isn’t ugly rosewood.



That said though, the Kisel he put up on Instagram looks pretty by the numbers itself. Just plain white, ebony board, EMGs and side dot inlays. No black boarder, no crest, nothing.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 16, 2018)

oc616 said:


> No black boarder, no crest, nothing.



Don't expect anything like that. Kiesel doesn't do much inlay or real binding. 

Which is honestly a good thing probably.


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## r33per (Feb 16, 2018)

iamaom said:


> I think you guys should be thankful to Kiesel, complaints about them make up about half this forums activity.




The other being Gibson, aye?


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## JD27 (Feb 16, 2018)

Mathemagician said:


> It was basically a less interesting merrow sig.
> 
> The crescent is genuinely cooler. And at least it isn’t ugly rosewood.
> 
> Honestly my crescent gas just went up another 1%. (Just with a more visually pleasing headstock.)



The crescent is cool and I do actually like some of their others. I had a DC7X for a while and it was pretty solid, not a bad price for what I spec'd out for the build. That is really the unfortunate part, Lord Douchenozzle and his antics are just too much to ever consider another build from them.


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## feraledge (Feb 17, 2018)

I wonder if Andy blamed ESP for his sig not selling. He might have just been needlessly stubborn about having a boring guitar, but unless you are a huge fan of his, of these three, his comes in last place:














Of this year's models, the MH is $100 less and looks better IMO.


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## feraledge (Feb 17, 2018)

Add to that, I totally forgot the 2015 H7 even had the same reversed HRF headstock:


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Feb 17, 2018)

oracles said:


> Four free guitars on signing and a 40% discount off orders placed after that.



Wow. You can normally only get Kiesels discounted that much by buying them from the original owner.


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## Zalbu (Feb 17, 2018)

feraledge said:


> I wonder if Andy blamed ESP for his sig not selling. He might have just been needlessly stubborn about having a boring guitar, but unless you are a huge fan of his, of these three, his comes in last place:
> 
> Of this year's models, the MH is $100 less and looks better IMO.


This is what I don't get, the only unique feature of his sigs is his inlay, how much does ESP even benefit from giving an artist like him a signature model? I realize he has a huge social media following which companies look for, but how many of his sigs have even been sold?


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## Spaced Out Ace (Feb 17, 2018)

TonyFlyingSquirrel said:


> Sigs don't pull much in revenue in general. Vai & Malmsteen are exceptions, but I know that ESP only makes up to a couple of a hundred LTD Sigs for a local Seattle endorsee who's been with them for over 30 years. There aren't "thousands" of these in rotation on the market, more like, "dozens" and sigs tend to sit on shelves a good while until they are marked down considerably.


I'm sure Lynch makes a decent amount for ESP/Ltd, or they wouldn't allow him to make the Mr. Scary guitars or whatever they are called. Perhaps they are involved and get a cut or something.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Feb 17, 2018)

Zalbu said:


> This is what I don't get, the only unique feature of his sigs is his inlay, how much does ESP even benefit from giving an artist like him a signature model? I realize he has a huge social media following which companies look for, but how many of his sigs have even been sold?


Probably less than "JACKSON RRV GOLD CREATURES TOUR" guitars that Vinnie Vincent's auctioned off.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 17, 2018)

oracles said:


> Four free guitars on signing and a 40% discount off orders placed after that.



For a "bedroom" player, that's a solid deal. Judging by his LTD sigs his following isn't ready to buy his guitars, so dealing with an entity like ESP where the compensation is based on units moved, while not getting significant CS perks is not ideal. 

Kiesel on the other hand is a big player in his current market, social media. I'm betting there was already significant cross-over between followers of both. 

He doesn't need the tour support that the bigger, production brands can offer. 

Four free instruments is a lot. Especially when he can spec them to his liking. The 40% discount is also big enough that he could probably order a guitar or two and sell them as "artist owned/played/signed" for profit down the road as a backend financial perk. All the while Kiesel gets to add a young, popular artist to the roster with no real financial risk. Four guitars is nothing to them, and that 60% remaining surely covers cost. 

Good move for everyone involved. Including ESP which was probably losing money on his contract, subsidizing the production of model that wasn't moving.


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## feraledge (Feb 17, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> For a "bedroom" player, that's a solid deal. Judging by his LTD sigs his following isn't ready to buy his guitars, so dealing with an entity like ESP where the compensation is based on units moved, while not getting significant CS perks is not ideal.
> 
> Kiesel on the other hand is a big player in his current market, social media. I'm betting there was already significant cross-over between followers of both.
> 
> ...


He definitely had access to the custom shop, but was vocally opposed to getting his sig as a custom, wanted players to know that his sig is a pro quality guitar. They did EII runs as well, but I don’t recall seeing him with one ever. But artists without sigs can get a free CS guitar even without being huge, president has to sign off and it’s probably in lieu of the normal annual allocation. 
But for a bedroom player, he definitely has been focusing more on tours. Not that I disagree about the primary market crossover with Kiesel. 
And an ESP endorsement of his level without the sig is probably upwards of 3 LTDs or EIIs annually. That’s what the folks I know who are/were endorsed were getting and then cash royalties on sigs I would imagine. Back in the mid to late 00s, touring bands could also kind of grab whatever from the HQ warehouse depending on who they dealt with. No minor deal.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 17, 2018)

feraledge said:


> He definitely had access to the custom shop, but was vocally opposed to getting his sig as a custom, wanted players to know that his sig is a pro quality guitar. They did EII runs as well, but I don’t recall seeing him with one ever. But artists without sigs can get a free CS guitar even without being huge, president has to sign off and it’s probably in lieu of the normal annual allocation.
> But for a bedroom player, he definitely has been focusing more on tours. Not that I disagree about the primary market crossover with Kiesel.
> And an ESP endorsement of his level without the sig is probably upwards of 3 LTDs or EIIs annually. That’s what the folks I know who are/were endorsed were getting and then cash royalties on sigs I would imagine. Back in the mid to late 00s, touring bands could also kind of grab whatever from the HQ warehouse depending on who they dealt with. No minor deal.



The Kiesel deal still seems to be a better fit. 

Four free CS instruments from the get go, and a hefty discount on further CS stuff. 

Who wants a stable full of identical LTDs? A custom every so often if you're in the company president's favor? 

The only benefit from ESP is thier scale and reach, which would mean there's a guitar with his name on it where ever he happens to be touring, if need arises. 

Plus now he doesn't have to worry about sales. I can find maybe one being posted on all the internet, possibly two if you're willing to go without pics. 

I'm not minimizing his deal with ESP, works great for plenty of artists, but didn't seem to be tailored as well as the Kiesel one.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 17, 2018)

This happened as well.

But then again, Johnny loves to hop from company to company. 

His guitar reminds me of his PRS sig model.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 17, 2018)

If I was legally blind I'd probably be down for a Kiesel too.

Sorry. Had to. 

His sigs have always been great player guitars. It will be interesting to see what changes Kiesel lets him make.


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Feb 18, 2018)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> His guitar reminds me of his PRS sig model.



He’s playing a stock model (SH6) in that vid - His unannounced sig is supposedly a tele.

Edit: No returns on that guitar because the wood was “chosen by Jeff.”

https://www.kieselguitars.com/guitars-in-stock/129657


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## drmosh (Feb 18, 2018)

good for him, regardless of the opinion about kiesel


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 18, 2018)

Johnny said in the livestream that he already owns an aries and has toured with it, then he saw the solos/teles and wanted one. It's actually pretty fun to watch a guy like johnny geek out super hard over gear.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 18, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Johnny said in the livestream that he already owns an aries and has toured with it, then he saw the solos/teles and wanted one. It's actually pretty fun to watch a guy like johnny geek out super hard over gear.



Johnny's been in the game long enough to know how to play it. He's really into gear, and really into wrangling endorsements out of it. 

Truth is, he's a gifted studio musician and will use whatever sounds great for the given piece, even if it's not his current contract gear.


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 18, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Johnny's been in the game long enough to know how to play it. He's really into gear, and really into wrangling endorsements out of it.
> 
> Truth is, he's a gifted studio musician and will use whatever sounds great for the given piece, even if it's not his current contract gear.


Oh i know, he was the same way in an interview I saw with him a couple years back when he was using PRS. It's just a nice change to see someone successful in music that geeks out like that versus an interview with the silversun pickups I watched a while ago where they were proud of the fact that they didn't know shit about their gear.


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Feb 19, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> It's actually pretty fun to watch a guy like johnny geek out super hard over gear.



Hiland is the best guy to learn a thing or two from concerning effective gearwhorin’:


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## Seabeast2000 (Feb 19, 2018)

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> Hiland is the best guy to learn a thing or two from concerning effective gearwhorin’:




I saw this a few weeks ago, guy attributes EVERYTHING to a tee, even his nail salon.


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Feb 20, 2018)

Who knows what's in the fine print of endorsements nowadays. So much has changed.
Back in the early/mid 90's when I was endorsed by ADA Amplification, my deal was basically getting gear at below the mark that Guitar Center paid for it, which was quite a good deal, nearly 60 % off of retail, so my MP2 preamp that retailed for $1000, I basically paid about $450 USD for. I didn't get anything free, but I did get to beta test the MP2, Ampulator, Microcab, & the Rocket series which never really got any marketplace traction. I also acquired the only 4x12 cabs they ever made, which is what I toured with, along with a "one-off" horizontal 2x12 slant cab.


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Feb 20, 2018)

I wonder if Keisel will retain his preference for EMG 57/66 pickups.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 20, 2018)

TonyFlyingSquirrel said:


> I wonder if Keisel will retain his preference for EMG 57/66 pickups.



Not sure what it's like now, but you used to be able to get anything installed as long as you provided them. 

They are offering Fishman Fluence, albeit with a pretty stupid run around.


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## spudmunkey (Feb 21, 2018)

TonyFlyingSquirrel said:


> I wonder if Keisel will retain his preference for EMG 57/66 pickups.



The first completed guitar they showed with the Evertune had EMGs.


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## Arkon (Feb 21, 2018)

Can't believe it. 2 new 2018 models and he leave ESP like that.


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Feb 21, 2018)

Hopefully it all works for him! 

And @ the Johnny Hiland thing. That's great. I am definitely taking notes on how to become a true gear whore


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## lewis (Feb 21, 2018)

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Hopefully it all works for him!
> 
> And @ the *Johnny Hiland* thing. That's great. I am definitely taking notes on how to become a true gear whore


first time hearing about him. What a character and brilliant guitarist he is.
Got half way through and was instantly shocked when he mentioned being blind. Unreal
I watched the entire video.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Feb 21, 2018)

lewis said:


> first time hearing about him. What a character and brilliant guitarist he is.
> Got half way through and was instantly shocked when he mentioned being blind. Unreal
> I watched the entire video.


I mean he's legally blind, not completely blind. There's a big difference. Dude's not stevie wonder/ray charles or jose feliciano.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Feb 21, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I mean he's legally blind, not completely blind. There's a big difference. Dude's not stevie wonder/ray charles or jose feliciano.



My mom is legally blind so I can relate. My family also has a degenerative eye disease so fingers crossed I don’t get that.


----------



## spudmunkey (Feb 21, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I mean he's legally blind, not completely blind. There's a big difference. Dude's not stevie wonder/ray charles or jose feliciano.





r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> My mom is legally blind so I can relate. My family also has a degenerative eye disease so fingers crossed I don’t get that.



My old babysitter was legally blind, and yet she could pass the DMV's vision test without her coke bottle glasses...which is hillarrible.


----------



## Andromalia (Feb 21, 2018)

TonyFlyingSquirrel said:


> I also acquired the only 4x12 cabs they ever made, which is what I toured with, along with a "one-off" horizontal 2x12 slant cab.



If you're Patrick Rondat, welcome, if you're not, this wasn't a one-off 2x12 slant, as I saw Patrick Rondat playing a few of them in the 90es. I never was an ADA endorsee but I sure liked playing their gear back then.


----------



## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Feb 21, 2018)

Andromalia said:


> If you're Patrick Rondat, welcome, if you're not, this wasn't a one-off 2x12 slant, as I saw Patrick Rondat playing a few of them in the 90es. I never was an ADA endorsee but I sure liked playing their gear back then.


NOT Patrick Rondat.
My username IS my name.

My Horizontal one was different than the split stack cabs, I wish I had pics of it, or better yet, I wish now that I still had it. The slant was up a couple of inches from the bottom and cantilevered out over the bottom couple of inches. I've never seen a horizontal 2x12 like it before or since then.

I sold the 2x12 around 1999 & sold the set of 4x12's around 2001 right around the time I retired from touring.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Feb 21, 2018)

TonyFlyingSquirrel said:


> NOT Patrick Rondat.
> My username IS my name.


Ah, so you're Native American? How, sir Flying Squirrel.


----------



## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Feb 21, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Ah, so you're Native American? How, sir Flying Squirrel.


Cherokee, Deer Clan on mom's side, bear clan on my dad's. You don't marry within your own clan.


----------



## Flappydoodle (Feb 26, 2018)

Great player, but I find it very hard to imagine that anybody buys a guitar because of him. He isn't exactly an "inspirational" player to me. That said, I do own his signature E-II Eclipse 7 string - because it was an amazing guitar, at a great price. I would have preferred a non-sig version without the inlay though.

I also find that players who change endorsements regularly end up diluting their influence on me. Guys like Petrucci have been with Boogie and Musician for decades, and that endorsement is worth something. I've never played an EBMM, but I have a very high opinion of them because one of the best guitarists in the world swears by them. But guys have Misha have SWORN by certain things and then immediately changed their tune the second a new product comes along. I know that's one way to make money in the industry, so I'm not bashing them exactly, but I will actively discount their influence when it comes to buying decisions.


----------



## spudmunkey (Feb 26, 2018)

Tim Miller was just announced today. He already has his Zeus up as the main image on his website: http://www.timmillermusic.com/

No, I have no idea who he is, and the little I've heard is way above my pay grade. It's what I would call, "That...that's the kind of jazz that I hate."  His ring fingers are definitely longer than mine, though.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Feb 26, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> Tim Miller was just announced today. He already has his Zeus up as the main image on his website: http://www.timmillermusic.com/
> 
> No, I have no idea who he is, and the little I've heard is way above my pay grade. It's what I would call, "That...that's the kind of jazz that I hate."  His ring fingers are definitely longer than mine, though.


his music fits right in with gambale/holdsworth. technically impressive but leaves me feeling gross after listening to it. It's like smooth elevator music with more dissonance thrown in. literally the only fusion players I can even slightly tolerate are brett garsed or maybe rick graham/tom quayle


----------



## NateFalcon (Feb 26, 2018)

Kiesel is banking on endorsements to steer customers their way now that Carvin closed its doors a few months ago. What remains is Kiesel...the company’s only focus is guitars now.


----------



## BigViolin (Feb 26, 2018)

Wow, really surprised with the Tim deal especially in light of his Cantons. Hope he got a great deal.


----------



## spudmunkey (Feb 26, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> Kiesel is banking on endorsements to steer customers their way now that Carvin closed its doors a few months ago. What remains is Kiesel...the company’s only focus is guitars now.



They split 3 years ago. The focus of the company making the guitars has only been guitars since January of 2015.


----------



## NateFalcon (Feb 27, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> They split 3 years ago. The focus of the company making the guitars has only been guitars since January of 2015.


True, they were still bounced off the Carvin association they had forever though and with Carvin completely gone and Kiesel putting out a lot of complaints, it makes sense that endorsements could potentially make money...where focusing on customer service when you have lots of returns is costing money...I get it, people are aware of the quality problem already...


----------



## Flappydoodle (Feb 27, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> Kiesel is banking on endorsements to steer customers their way now that Carvin closed its doors a few months ago. What remains is Kiesel...the company’s only focus is guitars now.



Seems like a fast cash-grab to me, which sounds typical of the mentality of someone like Jeff. However, I think those endorsement gear-whores can bite you in the ass if you aren't careful. IMO, they end up damaging your brand when they flip all the time. To me, Kiesel already has that image from the way they paid a whole bunch of YouTubers to use nothing but Kiesel for a while. (And notably, every single one except StevieT hasn't played a Kiesel for months now)

For example, Andy James just announced a whole bunch of brand new signature guitar models with ESP/LTD, only last month. They're in the release which isn't even available to buy until May, which means he's presumably left ESP hanging high and dry with a bunch of guitars in factories and warehouses which they now can't sell. I assume he didn't void some sort of contract, but it's still a pretty shitty move to pull IMO. And one day, he will likely do the same thing to Jeff.


----------



## groverj3 (Feb 27, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> Seems like a fast cash-grab to me, which sounds typical of the mentality of someone like Jeff. However, I think those endorsement gear-whores can bite you in the ass if you aren't careful. IMO, they end up damaging your brand when they flip all the time. To me, Kiesel already has that image from the way they paid a whole bunch of YouTubers to use nothing but Kiesel for a while. (And notably, every single one except StevieT hasn't played a Kiesel for months now)
> 
> For example, Andy James just announced a whole bunch of brand new signature guitar models with ESP/LTD, only last month. They're in the release which isn't even available to buy until May, which means he's presumably left ESP hanging high and dry with a bunch of guitars in factories and warehouses which they now can't sell. I assume he didn't void some sort of contract, but it's still a pretty shitty move to pull IMO. And one day, he will likely do the same thing to Jeff.



I'm not going to say the optics aren't less than optimal, but presumably Andy made the decision because it made financial and business sense for his career. Can't blame a guy for that. Especially considering I doubt he's raking the the dough, very few are.


----------



## spudmunkey (Feb 27, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> To me, Kiesel already has that image from the way they paid a whole bunch of YouTubers to use nothing but Kiesel for a while. (And notably, every single one except StevieT hasn't played a Kiesel for months now)



Who else did they send them to? Jared plays his white LPM6 pretty frequently (at least as recently as last month), and Stevie T plays his 3-4 exclusively, even in that big collaboration video they did a week or two ago. Jared was there to play drums, so I'm not surprised to not see his guitar(s) there.


----------



## Trashgreen (Mar 3, 2018)




----------



## spudmunkey (Mar 3, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> Who else did they send them to? Jared plays his white LPM6 pretty frequently (at least as recently as last month), and Stevie T plays his 3-4 exclusively, even in that big collaboration video they did a week or two ago. Jared was there to play drums, so I'm not surprised to not see his guitar(s) there.



He used it again in today's video. Although hilariously, it shows him playing it, and then the camera changes to the people he's talking to, and the guitar is hanging on the wall behind them, too...unless he has two.


----------



## couverdure (Mar 22, 2018)

Looks like the last Andy James models will be a limited exclusive to EverTune's own store, and they're renamed to the ET6 and ET7 yet they still have his signature 12th fret inlay.
https://www.evertune.com/shop/guitars/ESP_LTD/ET6_black.php
https://www.evertune.com/shop/guitars/ESP_LTD/ET7_white.php


----------



## feraledge (Mar 22, 2018)

couverdure said:


> Looks like the last Andy James models will be a limited exclusive to EverTune's own store, and they're renamed to the ET6 and ET7 yet they still have his signature 12th fret inlay.
> https://www.evertune.com/shop/guitars/ESP_LTD/ET6_black.php
> https://www.evertune.com/shop/guitars/ESP_LTD/ET7_white.php


It's no one else but on Andy that this happened. ESP was probably pissed and just offloaded them. He took off while both were already well under way in production.


----------



## Womb raider (Mar 23, 2018)

Weird how Evertune ended up with the stock. Figured they would just be at GC or MF at blowout prices.


----------



## Mathemagician (Mar 23, 2018)

They probabably offered to buy them wholesale and resell. Now they have an “in stock” ET model until supply runs out. Basic specs in black or white. Appeals to the younger modern metal players. Not a bad idea honestly.


----------



## NickVicious24 (Apr 23, 2018)

Andy just posted this on his Facebook.

Looks kinda sick imho!


----------



## scrub (Apr 23, 2018)

Call me crazy but...Meh


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Apr 23, 2018)

nonononONONONONONONO STOP STOP NO STOP
God reverse bursts like that are UUUUGLY


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Apr 23, 2018)

i kind of dig it.


----------



## Seabeast2000 (Apr 23, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> i kind of dig it.


yeah, not bad at all, looks like it just came out of the forge.


----------



## musicaldeath (Apr 23, 2018)

I need to see more, but so far, I don't dislike it.


----------



## BIG ND SWEATY (Apr 23, 2018)

A gross reverse burst with the worst color combination out there... no thanks.


----------



## Lorcan Ward (Apr 23, 2018)

Are they offering binding now? Or is that just the binding area sprayed black.


----------



## spudmunkey (Apr 23, 2018)

Lorcan Ward said:


> Are they offering binding now? Or is that just the binding area sprayed black.



Looks like they just taped off that line when they sprayed the pink.


----------



## Zado (Apr 23, 2018)

feraledge said:


> It's no one else but on Andy that this happened. ESP was probably pissed and just offloaded them. He took off while both were already well under way in production.




And yet it looks better than pretty much anything Kiesel has build so far.




NickVicious24 said:


> Andy just posted this on his Facebook.
> 
> Looks kinda sick imho!



This included.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Apr 23, 2018)

Lorcan Ward said:


> Are they offering binding now? Or is that just the binding area sprayed black.



Nope. Just taped off. 

Kiesel doesn't do finesse oriented stuff like binding or inlay outside of simple geometry stuff.


----------



## feraledge (Apr 23, 2018)

The906 said:


> yeah, not bad at all, looks like it just came out of the forge.


I disagree on it looking good, but having just come out of the forge is so damn fitting! Ha. It also looks like the shape isn't fully formed by the same token. I just think Kiesel shapes have always looked like incomplete drafts. 
But the tasteful and soulful playing of Andy just doesn't seem to translate outside of it.


----------



## feraledge (Apr 23, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Nope. Just taped off.
> 
> Kiesel doesn't do finesse oriented stuff like binding or inlay outside of simple geometry stuff.


To channel Jeff: "Bro, can't even be done bro." 
To channel 2020 Jeff when they finally figure out a cheap work around: "Bro, it's never been done before bro. $500 upgrade. *ball tap*"


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Apr 23, 2018)

feraledge said:


> I disagree on it looking good, but having just come out of the forge is so damn fitting! Ha. It also looks like the shape isn't fully formed by the same token. I just think Kiesel shapes have always looked like incomplete drafts.
> But the tasteful and soulful playing of Andy just doesn't seem to translate outside of it.



The angle is shitty, but I think the Crescent looks pretty damn good, and not just compared to other Kiesel shapes. Like, actually good. I'm really surprised it doesn't get more love. 

My one gripe is that it's not really a traditional carved top, more of a German-cut, but elongated. 






But, if you look at the straight on pics from Kiesel they edit the fuck out of them to make the carve look significantly deeper. 






I get it. It's less risky, faster, less labor intensive and lets them use an off the shelf Hipshot.


----------



## Frostbite (Apr 23, 2018)

That thing looks awesome. Fight me <3


----------



## feraledge (Apr 23, 2018)

@MaxOfMetal is it necessarily cheaper though? WMI can bust out a better carve than that. PRS SE's could look more like the CU carve, but it sounds like it's more of a branding thing, nearly everyone else going through WMI with a carved top does it far better. 
With Kiesel it's like there's something always wonky about the horns. The only Kiesels I think look good are the OG Becker and I think the Vader is one of the best headless models out there (also their best looking, originally designed horns). I'd say the California CT looks better than the Crescent, mainly because there's less horn for them to be ever-so-slightly-off on.


----------



## lewis (Apr 23, 2018)

Andy has his own kinda biker/slightly goth image and this guitar just reflects his own image perfectly. Its a SIGNATURE guitar.

Andy probably does not care if people like it or not haha.

And lets be real, it will suit him well when he is playing it and he is going to slay it hard.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Apr 23, 2018)

feraledge said:


> @MaxOfMetal is it necessarily cheaper though? WMI can bust out a better carve than that. PRS SE's could look more like the CU carve, but it sounds like it's more of a branding thing, nearly everyone else going through WMI with a carved top does it far better.
> With Kiesel it's like there's something always wonky about the horns. The only Kiesels I think look good are the OG Becker and I think the Vader is one of the best headless models out there (also their best looking, originally designed horns). I'd say the California CT looks better than the Crescent, mainly because there's less horn for them to be ever-so-slightly-off on.



Obviously you can't compare a giant operation like WMI or Cortek to Kiesel. The economy of scale alone blunts the effects of things like this. 

At an operation like Kiesel it's definitely cheaper to manufacture a shallower carve. 

Materials: A thinner top is needed which allows more tops to be sourced from a single billet, it's also cheaper purchasing multiple ready-cut tops that are thinner. 

Working: A less three dimensional carve is less likely to have little "surprises" come out of carving. PRS, Gibson and a few others have indicated that having deep carves increases the reject rate. 

Labor: Less carving, even when principally done via CNC, requires less sanding and sanding time. Time is money in labor hours.



lewis said:


> Its a SIGNATURE guitar.
> 
> Andy probably does not care if people like it or not haha.



It's not a signature guitar, it's a one-off custom order. 

Considering people liking it or not can effect him economically, I'm sure he does care at least a little bit.


----------



## lewis (Apr 23, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Obviously you can't compare a giant operation like WMI or Cortek to Kiesel. The economy of scale alone blunts the effects of things like this.
> 
> At an operation like Kiesel it's definitely cheaper to manufacture a shallower carve.
> 
> ...




Ah ive put 2 and 2 together and come up with 5.

Obviously I now about the endorsement so naturally i assumed this would be a "sig" model.
My mistake.

I still think it suits him alot and really its still a custom order for what HE wanted. Im not normally over keen on reverse bursts either but if i were him, i would not give a shit personally.


----------



## Seabeast2000 (Apr 23, 2018)

feraledge said:


> To channel Jeff: "Bro, can't even be done bro."
> To channel 2020 Jeff when they finally figure out a cheap work around: "Bro, it's never been done before bro. $500 upgrade. *ball tap*"


See you down at the Gauge and Goat bro.


----------



## ArtDecade (Apr 23, 2018)

Frostbite said:


> That thing looks awesome. Fight me <3



Here is me putting you to sleep. That guitar looks terrible.


----------



## Seabeast2000 (Apr 23, 2018)

feraledge said:


> @MaxOfMetal is it necessarily cheaper though? WMI can bust out a better carve than that. PRS SE's could look more like the CU carve, but it sounds like it's more of a branding thing, nearly everyone else going through WMI with a carved top does it far better.
> With Kiesel it's like there's something always wonky about the horns. The only Kiesels I think look good are the OG Becker and I think the Vader is one of the best headless models out there (also their best looking, originally designed horns). I'd say the California CT looks better than the Crescent, mainly because there's less horn for them to be ever-so-slightly-off on.


The TL60 horn works well. Or should I say, WORKED amiright?


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Apr 23, 2018)

ArtDecade said:


> Here is me putting you to sleep. That guitar looks terrible.


dat spinning hook kick


----------



## Frostbite (Apr 23, 2018)

ArtDecade said:


> Here is me putting you to sleep. That guitar looks terrible.


No you


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Apr 23, 2018)

The906 said:


> The TL60 horn works well. Or should I say, WORKED amiright?



That's cheating, the TL60's cuts are pretty much carbon copy Telecaster.


----------



## spudmunkey (Apr 23, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> But, if you look at the straight on pics from Kiesel they edit the fuck out of them to make the carve look significantly deeper.



While the rest of the post is just a matter of taste, this just seems incorrect. There are IRL photos and videos of both the Crescent and CT models that make it look like the horns are carved "sharper", and it's primarily the light source, and the finish. Satin finishes tend to look sharper, and solid metallic paints tend to look sharper than the trans paints. in their studio shots, larger light sources like a soft box, just because it's larger, is reflected on more of the body, showing off the contours more.

I think an even bigger reason the Crescent exists, more so than being able to use thinner tops, or perhaps reduced labor (which I'm not 100% certain on anyway), is flexibility. 

The CT started as a hand-carved prototype of a single model: 22 frets, 6-string, 25" scale. Because the whole face of the top is contoured (there's very little flat space), it's much much more involved to make new variations. It took FOREVER for them to make a 24-fret version, because they just couldn't pull the bridge back...they had to completely re-shape the top so that the bridge would align correctly. This crescent model, with it's larger flatter area, is effectively a blank canvas. A new scale length? Multisacle? Evertune? Some sort of trem that doesn't exist yet? no problem. They can just plop it in on the same plane as any other hardware would be, and it'll work with the same exact basic body program with little effort.


----------



## Sermo Lupi (Apr 23, 2018)

BIG ND SWEATY said:


> A gross reverse burst with the worst color combination out there... no thanks.



I think it's the 'spray paint' aesthetic, personally. PRS does a bunch of finishes similar to what you're calling a reverse burst, including the Vampire Burst (popularised by Emil Werstler) and Mark Holcomb's so-called 'Brisket Burst'. Tastes differ, but I think both look good. It's just when you use opaque paint rather than stain and spray it the way Kiesel does that it starts to look bad. Execution is what separates the wheat from the chaff when it comes to bold burst finishes.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Apr 23, 2018)

Kiesel’s bursts (particularly the ones done by Jeff) consistently give the impression that they’re done with spray cans and stencils cut for different body shapes.

Just my opinion, of course.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Apr 23, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> While the rest of the post is just a matter of taste, this just seems incorrect. There are IRL photos and videos of both the Crescent and CT models that make it look like the horns are carved "sharper", and it's primarily the light source, and the finish. Satin finishes tend to look sharper, and solid metallic paints tend to look sharper than the trans paints. in their studio shots, larger light sources like a soft box, just because it's larger, is reflected on more of the body, showing off the contours more.
> 
> I think an even bigger reason the Crescent exists, more so than being able to use thinner tops, or perhaps reduced labor (which I'm not 100% certain on anyway), is flexibility.
> 
> The CT started as a hand-carved prototype of a single model: 22 frets, 6-string, 25" scale. Because the whole face of the top is contoured (there's very little flat space), it's much much more involved to make new variations. It took FOREVER for them to make a 24-fret version, because they just couldn't pull the bridge back...they had to completely re-shape the top so that the bridge would align correctly. This crescent model, with it's larger flatter area, is effectively a blank canvas. A new scale length? Multisacle? Evertune? Some sort of trem that doesn't exist yet? no problem. They can just plop it in on the same plane as any other hardware would be, and it'll work with the same exact basic body program with little effort.



Sure. The pics on thier site _just so happen to be_ incredibly misleading. Literally any other pic, even on thier social media is a more accurate representation, regardless of finish. Perhaps I'm wrong, it's incompetence and apathy and not being shady. I can be down for that. 

I get it. Actual carved tops are hard. That's why not every Tom, Dick or Jane does them. They're time consuming, require damn near perfect materials and a whole bunch of skill while also being less than forgiving as far as modifying for different use. 

But words mean a thing. A _carved top_ is a thing. There's a connotation there. I'm not going to play the semantics game of "well there is a slightly carve". It's not like it's a new concept with an illdefined meaning. It's been a staple in the guitar world since before I was born. 

Take a minute to read the product page for Crescent. I challenge anyone to take a shot every time they say "carved". I take no responsibility for the outcome. 

tl;dr: Photos are still inaccurate, the carve is minimal. It's easier for them.


----------



## USMarine75 (Apr 23, 2018)

Fact: Only Jeff Kiesel makes ugly guitars with ugly bevels.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Apr 24, 2018)

for every tasteful knaggs there are at least 4 that look terrible.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Apr 24, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> for every tasteful knaggs there are at least 4 that look terrible.



So Knaggs is the James Tyler of PRS/Gibson style guitars?


----------



## diagrammatiks (Apr 24, 2018)

to be fair no one mistakes the majority of knaggs for good looking guitars.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Apr 24, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> So Knaggs is the James Tyler of PRS/Gibson style guitars?


yes, except knaggs understands how to make acceptable headstock designs


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Apr 24, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> yes, except knaggs understands how to make acceptable headstock designs


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Apr 24, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


>


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Apr 24, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


>



I guess even a 5 looks like a 10 next to a 2.


----------



## USMarine75 (Apr 24, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


>





MaxOfMetal said:


> I guess even a 5 looks like a 10 next to a 2.








I just had this conversation the other day about JT headstocks with @Randy.


----------



## Zalbu (Apr 24, 2018)

NickVicious24 said:


> Andy just posted this on his Facebook.
> 
> Looks kinda sick imho!


----------



## spudmunkey (Apr 24, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Sure. The pics on thier site _just so happen to be_ incredibly misleading. Literally any other pic, even on thier social media is a more accurate representation, regardless of finish. Perhaps I'm wrong, it's incompetence and apathy and not being shady. I can be down for that.
> 
> I get it. Actual carved tops are hard. That's why not every Tom, Dick or Jane does them. They're time consuming, require damn near perfect materials and a whole bunch of skill while also being less than forgiving as far as modifying for different use.
> 
> ...



Well no shit their studio shots for marketing showcase the contouring the best they can. Just about every maker does that.

Studio shot from PRS'swebsite:




IRL photo:





What I'm saying is that their studio shots don't seem to be "deceptive" as there are many photos IRL of the Crescent that do show pronounced contouring. Yes, I see the flat area in the middle.














PRS's have a flat area too, BTW, it's just a different shape because they aren't likely futureproofing for 8-string, multiscale, Evertune, etc etc.


----------



## prlgmnr (Apr 24, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> Studio shot from PRS'swebsite:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Man, it almost looks like a totally different instrument when you see it in person.


----------



## spudmunkey (Apr 24, 2018)

Different model, same line (S2) with the same body shaping.


----------



## Seabeast2000 (Apr 24, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


>


I am starting to understand the advantages of headless for the brands now.


----------



## Frostbite (Apr 24, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


>


I just.... I really don't get what the fuck they were thinking. How did no one stop this from getting out? It's like if an ibanez head stock peaked in high school and got fat and balding


----------



## spudmunkey (Apr 24, 2018)

Frostbite said:


> I just.... I really don't get what the fuck they were thinking. How did no one stop this from getting out? It's like if an ibanez head stock peaked in high school and got fat and balding



I always wondered...is it supposed to be this?


----------



## Seabeast2000 (Apr 24, 2018)

Frostbite said:


> I just.... I really don't get what the fuck they were thinking. How did no one stop this from getting out? It's like if an ibanez head stock peaked in high school and got fat and balding


Its 2/3 Shocker.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Apr 24, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> Well no shit their studio shots for marketing showcase the contouring the best they can. Just about every maker does that.
> 
> Studio shot from PRS'swebsite:
> 
> ...



Ah, guitar whataboutism. How refreshing.

I guess if PRS does it everyone gets a pass.

I do love you bringing up an S2, which is obviously a bevel top and not a carve. The pictures are pretty obvious, even the ones from PRS.

They don't even call it a carved top: http://www.prsguitars.com/index.php/electrics/s2/s2_custom_24_2018

I don't see how you can equate a small area under the pickups and bridge on the PRS to almost the entire top on the Kiesel. The Kiesel is closer to the S2 than the Core PRS. 

As for your "future proof" argument: PRS has made 22 and 24 fret models on the same platform for years. Different bridges, 7 strings, 8 strings, even a touch guitar and multi-scales on the core platform. They it doesn't take rocket science to do that, you just proto it once and you can do it forever.


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## spudmunkey (Apr 24, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Ah, guitar whataboutism. How refreshing.
> 
> I guess if PRS does it everyone gets a pass.
> 
> ...



*sigh* "Whataboutism"? Really? That's like someone complaining that a cheeseburger came with ketchup on it, and someone in response points out that it's an industry standard, and then claiming that the response was "whataboutism". Car companies, phone manufacturers, clothing companies, etc all spend countless dollars and hours to photograph their products in the best possible light (both literally, and metaphorically). Hell, people posting selfies or selecting a professional headshot will pick one that shows off their "good side", etc.

THAT'S what I was comparing to PRS: not the style of the bevel/carve, but that fact that the studio shot looks so much more pronounced than an IRL photo. 

Where I WAS comparing the carve, in the last photo, that was not an S2. That was a Core product.


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## ArtDecade (Apr 24, 2018)

Whatabout whataboutsim?


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## KnightBrolaire (Apr 24, 2018)

another day another kiesel thread derailed


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 24, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> *sigh* "Whataboutism"? Really? That's like someone complaining that a cheeseburger came with ketchup on it, and someone in response points out that it's an industry standard, and then claiming that the response was "whataboutism". Car companies, phone manufacturers, clothing companies, etc all spend countless dollars and hours to photograph their products in the best possible light (both literally, and metaphorically). Hell, people posting selfies or selecting a professional headshot will pick one that shows off their "good side", etc.
> 
> THAT'S what I was comparing to PRS: not the style of the bevel/carve, but that fact that the studio shot looks so much more pronounced than an IRL photo.
> 
> Where I WAS comparing the carve, in the last photo, that was not an S2. That was a Core product.



It doesn't matter what other makers do. That's the point. You can always pull an example of a competitor doing the same or worse, still doesn't make it cool.

The S2 is specifically called a "bevel top" not a "carved top" so there should be no expectation for it to be anything else.

You found the most flat looking flat black PRS Core model, and even then it doesn't support your comparison as the flat part is just under the pickups and front of the bridge.






Vs.






Can you really not see the difference?

I know you have to defend Kiesel at every turn, but I'm done. Let's get back to talking about Andy James' new guitar.

Anyone have more pics? I can't tell just how pink/red the back is. Is it close to the hue of the inlays?


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## ArtDecade (Apr 24, 2018)

I can see the difference. Then again, I don't have my Kiesel sunglasses on either.


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## Sermo Lupi (Apr 24, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> I always wondered...is it supposed to be this?



I have no idea, but I've wondered that, too. You're apparently not the first to make the comparison; from the google image search 'James Tyler Headstock': 






I've always thought that headstock was unbearably ugly, but if that's what he was going for, at least I can understand where the inspiration comes from. Anyway, I suppose none of this is particularly relevant to Andy James' guitar, aside from the accusation it's ugly, too...


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## ArtDecade (Apr 24, 2018)

I can only imagine what the headstock would look like if Tyler was a fan of the shocker...


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## narad (Apr 24, 2018)

Sermo Lupi said:


> I have no idea, but I've wondered that, too. You're apparently not the first to make the comparison; from the google image search 'James Tyler Headstock':



Man, I've warmed up to that shape over the years, and the outrageous finishes and things like Jimburst, but if that's the inspiration it's going to be a huge let down. Even the brown eye, hairy brown eye, pink taco Friedman stuff is just so incredibly trashy already.


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## Sermo Lupi (Apr 24, 2018)

narad said:


> Man, I've warmed up to that shape over the years, and the outrageous finishes and things like Jimburst, but if that's the inspiration it's going to be a huge let down. Even the brown eye, hairy brown eye, pink taco Friedman stuff is just so incredibly trashy already.



Yeah...great amps, terrible names. I'm all for irreverent humour, but as a theme for a brand I think it's a little too on the nose. 

Speaking of noses, new from Mesa Boogie for 2018: The 'Boogie Schnozz!' Get a whiff of what John Petrucci has been smelling for years!


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## Seabeast2000 (Apr 24, 2018)

Sermo Lupi said:


> Yeah...great amps, terrible names. I'm all for irreverent humour, but as a theme for a brand I think it's a little too on the nose.
> 
> Speaking of noses, new from Mesa Boogie for 2018: The 'Boogie Schnozz!' Get a whiff of what John Petrucci has been smelling for years!



Meme contest!


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Apr 24, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> *sigh* "Whataboutism"? Really?



I miss Jeffbro.


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## Lemonbaby (Apr 25, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> My one gripe is that it's not really a traditional carved top, more of a German-cut, but elongated.


"German-cut"? Like... really?




KnightBrolaire said:


>


Hmmm... still don't get it. Can you please repeat that one more time?


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 25, 2018)

Lemonbaby said:


> "German-cut"? Like... really?



That would obviously be the concept brought to the extreme.


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Apr 25, 2018)

Premise: The above guitar exists. 

Conclusion: Kiesel, therefore, does not use photoshop or gaudy Instagram filters to misrepresent the carve of their guitar tops. 

I have proven it scientifically, and in my mind.


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## spudmunkey (Apr 29, 2018)

Andy on Anderton's channel, an interview with "The Captain":


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## spudmunkey (May 8, 2018)




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## lewis (May 8, 2018)

suits him perfectly!
Cant wait to see more vids of him using it.

Also, I respect him and his attitude towards EMGs.


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## couverdure (May 9, 2018)

That finish reminds me of this Ibanez Falchion.


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## BusinessMan (May 9, 2018)

Sermo Lupi said:


>


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## Flappydoodle (May 9, 2018)

This might be controversial, but Andy seems a bit... well, thick?

Obviously he can play really fast, but he wasn't very knowledgable about anything. Nor did he have any particularly useful insights about anything. And none of that was helped by his poor speaking ability. 

Not to mention that many of the things he said were outright wrong. For example, he didn't even know about EMG81 vs 57 and how 57 were the PAF voiced, lower output ones. Captain was right, Andy was wrong.


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## groverj3 (May 9, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> This might be controversial, but Andy seems a bit... well, thick?
> 
> Obviously he can play really fast, but he wasn't very knowledgable about anything. Nor did he have any particularly useful insights about anything. And none of that was helped by his poor speaking ability.
> 
> Not to mention that many of the things he said were outright wrong. For example, he didn't even know about EMG81 vs 57 and how 57 were the PAF voiced, lower output ones. Captain was right, Andy was wrong.



I didn't hear anything other than a guy who's not super into specifics about pickups.


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## ArtHam (May 9, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> This might be controversial, but Andy seems a bit... well, thick?
> 
> Obviously he can play really fast, but he wasn't very knowledgable about anything. Nor did he have any particularly useful insights about anything. And none of that was helped by his poor speaking ability.
> 
> Not to mention that many of the things he said were outright wrong. For example, he didn't even know about EMG81 vs 57 and how 57 were the PAF voiced, lower output ones. Captain was right, Andy was wrong.


I feel the same way. This video feels weird. I've watched almost all of those Captain Meets videos and where Steve Vai and Guthrie Govan for example are very eloquent and draw you in and the Captain seems to be super jazzed to meet them almost to the point of being giddy this video is just....I don't know. Neither of these guys seem to be having a great time and Andy comes off as a bit of a cold dude and a bit of a prick really. He may just be like this, but where I've gone to some other videos again and again especially the ones mentioned before because they are full of knowledge bombs making me want to go and practice and apply things that were said I found nothing inspiring said in this entire video.


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## Flappydoodle (May 9, 2018)

groverj3 said:


> I didn't hear anything other than a guy who's not super into specifics about pickups.



That was just one example. And you don't have to be "super into specifics" to simply know the model which is in your actual signature guitar LOL.



ArtHam said:


> I feel the same way. This video feels weird. I've watched almost all of those Captain Meets videos and where Steve Vai and Guthrie Govan for example are very eloquent and draw you in and the Captain seems to be super jazzed to meet them almost to the point of being giddy this video is just....I don't know. Neither of these guys seem to be having a great time and Andy comes off as a bit of a cold dude and a bit of a prick really. He may just be like this, but where I've gone to some other videos again and again especially the ones mentioned before because they are full of knowledge bombs making me want to go and practice and apply things that were said I found nothing inspiring said in this entire video.



Agreed. So many times Captain said something like "thanks for being here", and Andy says "yeeeah, no, it's fine...". It's a pretty big tell that he isn't having a good time.


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## Sermo Lupi (May 9, 2018)

Surprised to see you guys interpreted the video that way. Having watched several of Lee's videos with other artists, I thought _he _was the one who came off poorly in this video. He'd regularly interrupt Andy when he was replying to a question, despite the fact that in many other interviews (especially the one with Greg Koch), he'd pipe down to allow them to deliver lengthy answers. For that matter, I don't think Andy was being long-winded, Lee was just a bit dismissive of what he had to say. He was constantly inserting himself into his own questions and trying to reframe the discussion in terms of artists (or products) he is more familiar with. I know from watching other videos that he has very little respect for Andy's kind of music, so I was not surprised by this treatment, but still, what a disappointing interview. 

I think the interview would have been much better if Chappers was in the Captain's chair. Or Rabea. Anyone with even a shred of respect for Andy's music, really. Lee seemed downright passive aggressive at times.


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## lewis (May 9, 2018)

that does come across like sour grapes.
Anyone with any level of intellect can learn to be a master of their craft through hard work and practice. Which is what Andy has done.

Why does how his I.Q come across, need discussing? I mean he just gives honest answers and loves playing. I dont think he really cares that he isnt a scholar.


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## ArtHam (May 9, 2018)

lewis said:


> that does come across like sour grapes.
> Anyone with any level of intellect can learn to be a master of their craft through hard work and practice. Which is what Andy has done.
> 
> Why does how his I.Q come across, need discussing? I mean he just gives honest answers and loves playing. I dont think he really cares that he isnt a scholar.



I'm sure he doesn't. I'm just used to these videos being more fun and inspiring. Every single answer Andy gives is him going 'kinda like thing you know, like, kinda, thing' going off on some tangent and sometimes never even answering the actual questions. He sometimes comes off as very unfocussed. I'd be frustrated if I was Lee, because sometimes he'll ask a question and the answer takes forever to start. Somewhere in the beginning there was the question of after Slash what guitar players did you try to emulate. And Andy's answer is just this never-ending trapeze of 'kinda yeah like, I don't know like, kinda, people think like kinda yeah I don't know I always feel like....I mean, technique kind of thing but sort of kind of rough'. And then he never answers the question. They just cut to them jamming. It was excruciating. Almost turned off the video after that.

The video I watched before this one was the Steve Vai interview and everything about it was just way more fun. Now, I am a huge Andy James fan. I love Andy's music but I can't sit through a single Steve Vai or even Guthrie Govan album. Those videos had me pumping my fist the whole time though. Very inspiring and fun. There was just something totally off about this Andy James video and while it may have also been Lee's fault, Andy doesn't come off as somebody who's really into what he does. Compare that to how obviously in love with what they do Guthrie Govan and Steve Vai still are and throughout their interview I feel like they love being there.


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## Dcm81 (May 9, 2018)

He didn't come across as the most knowledgable or eloquent guy but really does seem to love what he's doing.
A BIG factor in the awkwardness of this interview I think, is the fact that Lee REALLY respects and is basically in awe of Govan and Satriani whereas for James, I think his feelings are rather the opposite...


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## spudmunkey (May 9, 2018)

He and Jeff did a live Q&A on Facebook yesterday, and i think that was actually more insightful... but it took a while. It probably took a half hour before it seemed like he felt at all comfortable, and even then, he still would stumble in and out of answering the actual questions.


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## groverj3 (May 9, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> He and Jeff did a live Q&A on Facebook yesterday, and i think that was actually more insightful... but it took a while. It probably took a half hour before it seemed like he felt at all comfortable, and even then, he still would stumble in and out of answering the actual questions.


Yeah, not everyone takes naturally to things like doing interviews and being on camera. That's fine, and has no reflection on someone's intelligence. I'm surprised people jumped to that here.


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## groverj3 (May 9, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> So many times Captain said something like "thanks for being here", and Andy says "yeeeah, no, it's fine...". It's a pretty big tell that he isn't having a good time.



"The Captain" sometimes rubs me the wrong way in their videos. I feel like having Chapman around keeps him from going off into full blown "If you aren't playing the minor pentatonic on a plexi with a Fender Strat or Les Paul it's not music" territory. Without him around he sometimes strikes me as one of those guys. Intentional or not.

That being said, I find their videos to usually be pretty entertaining.


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## lewis (May 9, 2018)

groverj3 said:


> Yeah, not everyone takes naturally to things like doing interviews and being on camera. That's fine, and has no reflection on someone's intelligence. I'm surprised people jumped to that here.





groverj3 said:


> "The Captain" sometimes rubs me the wrong way in their videos. I feel like having Chapman around keeps him from going off into full blown "If you aren't playing the minor pentatonic on a plexi with a Fender Strat or Les Paul it's not music" territory. Without him around he sometimes strikes me as one of those guys. Intentional or not.
> 
> That being said, I find their videos to usually be pretty entertaining.



Absolutely agree with everything here.

Spot on @groverj3 !


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## Zalbu (May 10, 2018)

couverdure said:


> That finish reminds me of this Ibanez Falchion.


That looks a hundred times better than Andys new guitar, if you're going to have such a stupid finish on the guitar then you might as well go over the top with it so it doesn't just look like somebody messed up in the paint shop.


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## HungryGuitarStudent (May 10, 2018)

Maybe Andy isn't comfortable doing interviews, maybe he was sick that day, maybe something from his personal life distracted him that day, maybe the captain's constant interruptions to talk about himself made Andy uncomfortable. Who knows ? But to conclude that Andy is a dimwit is a stretch.


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## lewis (May 10, 2018)

eayottes said:


> Maybe Andy isn't comfortable doing interviews, maybe he was sick that day, maybe something from his personal life distracted him that day, maybe the captain's constant interruptions to talk about himself made Andy uncomfortable. Who knows ? But to conclude that Andy is a dimwit is a stretch.


yeah exactly. And Irrelevant given he is a better guitarist than all of us haha


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## Trashgreen (May 10, 2018)

13 minutes in Andy talks about the switch from ESP to Kiesel..


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## Randy (May 10, 2018)

Zalbu said:


> That looks a hundred times better than Andys new guitar, if you're going to have such a stupid finish on the guitar then you might as well go over the top with it so it doesn't just look like somebody messed up in the paint shop.



Yeah, it looks like someone messed up in the woodshop too!


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## Flappydoodle (May 10, 2018)

eayottes said:


> Maybe Andy isn't comfortable doing interviews, maybe he was sick that day, maybe something from his personal life distracted him that day, maybe the captain's constant interruptions to talk about himself made Andy uncomfortable. Who knows ? But to conclude that Andy is a dimwit is a stretch.



This is true. But for the record, I didn't exactly "conclude that Andy is a dimwit". Point is, it's the only time I've seen him speak, and it wasn't a great impression.

Skimming the interview above (Jeff Kiesel and Andy), Andy seems much more comfortable and on the ball. So presumably just bad chemistry and awkwardness with Lee Anderton more than anything else.


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## thesnowdog (May 23, 2018)

I've only watched some of it but this seems like a much better interview.


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## groverj3 (May 23, 2018)

thesnowdog said:


> I've only some of it but this seems like a much better interview.




Watched this earlier. He comes off alright here.


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (May 23, 2018)

TL;DR: Guy left ESP because they were frigid and wouldn’t deviate from the roadmap they’d drawn up, and Kiesel’s endorsement model is limited to scooping up alienated, small-pond signature artists for a pump-n-dump.

Evertune gets the abandoned guitars, ESP shrugs, and Kiesel and James get to release a thing next year that may or may not still be a thing the year after that. Everybody wins.


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## feraledge (May 23, 2018)

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> TL;DR: Guy left ESP because they were frigid and wouldn’t deviate from the roadmap they’d drawn up, and Kiesel’s endorsement model is limited to scooping up alienated, small-pond signature artists for a pump-n-dump.
> 
> Evertune gets the abandoned guitars, ESP shrugs, and Kiesel and James get to release a thing next year that may or may not still be a thing the year after that. Everybody wins.


It is noteworthy that his issues with ESP included a high turnover rate, which backs up the idea that they might have given Canella a lot of room, for better or worse. I can confirm that artist customs take considerably longer than custom shop orders unless it's Kirk, James, or Holt. So if they're changing hands and he has 10 months in on an 18 month build and things change hands, that's a considerable issue for an artist like Andy. 
Also in this video he says he's not in it for the money, hence the money made from having a production model wasn't a factor in his decision, but he did feel guilty about not leaving earlier, but would have felt worse if he stuck with them for another 6 months after they're out and then left.


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## MaxOfMetal (May 23, 2018)

feraledge said:


> Also in this video he says he's not in it for the money, hence the money made from having a production model wasn't a factor in his decision





Translation: no one was buying these things, so it wasn't _enough_ money to care about. 

The whole point, for the artist, of signature gear is the financial benefits. If not cash, than the savings of having free/discounted gear and having the advertising power of the large guitar manufacturer push your music, tours and brand.


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## feraledge (May 23, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Translation: no one was buying these things, so it wasn't _enough_ money to care about.
> 
> The whole point, for the artist, of signature gear is the financial benefits. If not cash, than the savings of having free/discounted gear and having the advertising power of the large guitar manufacturer push your music, tours and brand.


For the record, I’m not saying I believe that’s the reason! Haha


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