# One does not simply flutter



## DrPaul (Jun 27, 2014)

how well can a kahler flutter? I've never actually seen someone flutter on one, and was wandering if it can be made to flutter like a floyd, because I've been leaning more and more towards kahlers.


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## Durero (Jun 27, 2014)

Skip to 3:20


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## DrPaul (Jun 27, 2014)

Is there any way to make a kahler flutter better? I know it can't ever best an OFR but I have the inclination to get as close as I can.


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## Nlelith (Jun 28, 2014)

Durero said:


> Skip to 3:20
> *Floyd Rose vs Kahler Trem*


My Dc700 Floyd flatters even less than Kahler in this video.  Might try to remove one spring though...


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## Deadnightshade (Jun 28, 2014)

Nlelith said:


> My Dc700 Floyd flatters even less than Kahler in this video.  Might try to remove one spring though...



That's alright some Floyds just don't sugarcoat it, or don't want to say a good word to anybody because of their own self-esteem problems.


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## Andless (Jun 28, 2014)

Funny.... I just watched that video yesterday to see what the kahler is all about. Intrigued, but it kinda prompted me to stick with the OFR I'm used to. Or go fixed.


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## decreebass (Jun 28, 2014)

Nlelith said:


> My Dc700 Floyd flatters even less than Kahler in this video.  Might try to remove one spring though...



One of the problems might be that it's a 7.

I started a thread over at the EBMM forums about this. Trouble is, NO ONE seems to know or understand the physics behind the flutter. Should you use lighter gauge strings? Who knows. Less springs? More springs? NOBODY KNOWS FOR SURE.

I was asking because while all my 7-string JPs have the flutter, honestly, they all suck even compared to the Kahler in that video. My question to the forum was returned with speculation, answers from people citing "it's simple physics" but unable to explain. You'd think that as long as the spring tension balances the string (the bridge flush with the body), when you whack it (lol) or dive a little and slide off (the slow whack) the tensions should balance and it should flutter. While this is indeed the case, it's NOTHING like the guitars in this guy's video.

It's frustrating and I have no idea what in FACT makes the flutter or how to improve it.


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## decreebass (Jun 29, 2014)

Seriously? No one knows? I guess this is the same reason the thread just died at the EBMM forums. I guess it either just works or doesn't - I suppose I'll have to accept that mine fall somewhere in between lol.


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## Edika (Jun 29, 2014)

If you see Hooke's law you will see that the equation is equal with F=kx, where x is the displacement caused by force F and k is the stifness of the spring. Since the springs are put in parallel in a Floyd they act as capasitors and the final k is the sum of the k's of the springs. Meaning kfin=k1+k2+k3. I am not taking into account of the V shape for putting springs because that complicates matters a bit. Strings also matter as their elasticity and thus vibration will contribute to the effect. So yes less springs and strings that can vibrate more (not necessarily lighter ones but they do help as they decrease the dampening factors) would give you more flutter. Not to sound smug but anyone with high school physics knowledge can figure this out.


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## Andless (Jun 29, 2014)

After reading this again gave it a try on my 7 with OFR. No flutter at all... (I'm on D'Addario XL 9-54).


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## decreebass (Jun 29, 2014)

Edika said:


> If you see Hooke's law you will see that the equation is equal with F=kx, where x is the displacement caused by force F and k is the stifness of the spring. Since the springs are put in parallel in a Floyd they act as capasitors and the final k is the sum of the k's of the springs. Meaning kfin=k1+k2+k3. I am not taking into account of the V shape for putting springs because that complicates matters a bit. Strings also matter as their elasticity and thus vibration will contribute to the effect. So yes less springs and strings that can vibrate more (not necessarily lighter ones but they do help as they decrease the dampening factors) would give you more flutter. Not to sound smug but anyone with high school physics knowledge can figure this out.



Also not to sound smug, but is this theoretical or do you have proof and experience that this works? Also, what is the TLR version? If I understand correctly, lighter gauge strings & fewer springs arranged straight equals better/more/longer flutter?

When I spoke about the physics behind it, I wasn't looking for equations, though I appreciate that you took the time to write it out (though I suspect you're one of a miniscule minority on this forum that knows what the hell all that was that you wrote) but I need to be spoken to like I'm a child: so my question, hopefully more to the point this time, is:

"Is there a way to make the flutter better/longer/deeper/etc. and how is this accomplished? No math, no anecdotes, no theory, no hearsay: Has anyone taken a guitar that had a mediocre flutter and done stuff to it to make it as stellar as the flutter in the above video? And if so, what did you do?"

Again, not trying to be a d***, but it's incredibly frustrating that something like this should be such a mystery on multiple guitar forums lol


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## trem licking (Jun 29, 2014)

light gauge strings with 3 springs, big heavy trem block and a tight whammy bar setting with the bar positioned parallel with the strings forward or backward. ibanez edge trems as well as floyds should do it fairly easily... i recall seeing even a fender trem as well as a prs trem flutter on videos before.


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## Edika (Jun 29, 2014)

Ah I didn't realize you wanted empirical evidence of people trying to improve the flutter of a guitar so I apologize. I haven't tried to so I can't comment more on that. The theory suggests that if you decrease the stiffness of springs it will decrease the dampening effect that makes them go to their original position quicker.
What trem licking suggests is correct plus using two springs instead of three, since you'll also be using lighter gauge strings. The bigger block that has more mass will make the tremolo flutter more.
Also you need to see areas that will prohibit/dampen movement. Well maintained knife edges on the pivot points will transfer energy to the springs better, so a Floyd system with hardened steel edges would flutter better. If your knife edges have gone dull and there is a way to sharpen them without damaging the bridge then this should help too.

So to recap, light gauge strings, if possible two springs in parallel with low stifness, tight bar for better control and well maintained sharp edges on the Floyd.


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## groverj3 (Jun 29, 2014)

Nlelith said:


> My Dc700 Floyd flatters even less than Kahler in this video.  Might try to remove one spring though...



I've never needed to use more than three springs and that seems to be the sweet spot for getting a good flutter. I use 10s in standard, 10.5 in Eb, 11 in D, etc. I can balance it just fine with three springs in all those situations.


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## Nlelith (Jun 30, 2014)

Well, Floyd on my Carvin came with 3 springs, arrow shape. I'm going to change strings this week, and leave Floyd with 2 springs, parallel shape. I'll report if it made flutter any better or not.


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## Edika (Jun 30, 2014)

Nlelith said:


> Well, Floyd on my Carvin came with 3 springs, arrow shape. I'm going to change strings this week, and leave Floyd with 2 springs, parallel shape. I'll report if it made flutter any better or not.



I don't know if 2 springs will be enough for a 7 string but putting them in a parallel formations should help. Springs used in OFR's (if this isn't a new model that has it) should help. I know people have reported that 7 string OFR's don't flutter as much as 6 string OFR's and the 3 springs minimum is a good explanation.

Another reason I can thing that would diminish flutter would be how well the guitar is setup and how fresh the strings are. If you have strings being dampened by touching the strings (action too low or frets popping up) and if the strings are worn out. There might be some frequencies (aka notes) that might flutter more as they might come in sync with the frequency of the springs. I have a bit of noisy springs in some of my guitars and I have seen that they get louder with some notes and their harmonic frequencies. Those notes might flutter more than others.


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## jvms (Jun 30, 2014)

Does anyone know a way to make Kahlers float better?


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## decreebass (Jul 1, 2014)

FYI, everyone, I emailed Ernie Ball and one of their techs got back to me with advice.



> Hello,
> 
> I've asked around at various forums (including the EBMM) and nobody seems to be able to give any solid experience-based advice; it's all anecdotal or theoretical.
> 
> ...



and they replied:



> Hey Jase,
> 
> First off, thanks for playing Music Man!
> 
> ...



So I'm gonna give this a try and report back - probably with video evidence of the before and after. Might be a day or two so be patient


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## decreebass (Jul 2, 2014)

Well, sad to say, no such luck. I switched to 9s and arranged the two springs in a V shape as directed. The flutter improved a little, but not dramatically. Quicktime was not playing nice with my Mac and Logitech webcam so no video, but suffice it to say it only got slightly better. I've just accepted that the flutter simply isn't/can't be as pronounced on a 7. I'm sure with practice and improved technique it can be better than it is now, but it's never gonna be like the above video.

C'est la vie.


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## eaeolian (Jul 2, 2014)

Andless said:


> After reading this again gave it a try on my 7 with OFR. No flutter at all... (I'm on D'Addario XL 9-54).



I flutter mine on 10-59 XLs with four springs in the Floyd on my SLAT3-7 all the time. Do you have a Tremel-no? It really screwed up the flutter on Noodles' Floyd-equipped KXK with 3 springs and the same gauges.


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## Nlelith (Jul 3, 2014)

decreebass said:


> I've just accepted that the flutter simply isn't/can't be as pronounced on a 7.


I don't believe in it. Here's a guy with Ibanez, and it's trem (some sort of Edge, I believe) flutters insanely good. And here's *tracking session* of the original song, played with EBMM. Lee's not playing that particular part with flutters, but you can hear it on playback, and I believe there was no editing done yet (considering it's only tracking). And again, it flutters great.


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## DrPaul (Jul 5, 2014)

How do you make a Kahler flutter better? is there any way at all?


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## decreebass (Jul 5, 2014)

I'm beginning to wonder if maybe having MORE springs is the answer? When I changed to 9s and LESS springs, the flutter got better, but only ever so slightly. I think I should have left the springs as they were... It took almost an hour to balance the bridge and I wore my knuckle raw against the battery cover trying to screw the trem claw in due to the angle necessary to get proper force.

Anyway, I wonder if maybe I should have ADDED a spring? Given the various gauges of strings, I'm sure no one formula perfectly describes the strings' actions during a flutter (chaos/fractal theoreticians, where you at?) but I'm sure 7 strings are way more chaotic than 6, even in a perfectly controlled situation. 

Unfortunately, I don't have the patience yet to test this theory; though I suppose it should only involve adding the springs and adjusting the claw... so maybe I'll do it...


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## Nlelith (Jul 6, 2014)

I've changed strings on my 7 yesterday. Unfortunately, I had only heavy gauge strings, so two springs couldn't handle 11-50 set + 70 strings (but it feels like 2 springs would be enough for set of 10-46+68 in drop G). Tried to set springs parallel, didn't make fluttering any better.

*decreebass,* actually, now I think that adding/removing springs won't affect fluttering, if string gauge remains the same, since it will require same tension on them. Logically, I think less tension should make fluttering better, and vice-versa, because more tension makes trem more "resistant" to angle change, thus, inhibit vibration more fast... At least I think physics works this way.


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## pushpull7 (Jul 6, 2014)

Nlelith said:


> I don't believe in it. Here's a guy with Ibanez, and it's trem (some sort of Edge, I believe) flutters insanely good. And here's *tracking session* of the original song, played with EBMM. Lee's not playing that particular part with flutters, but you can hear it on playback, and I believe there was no editing done yet (considering it's only tracking). And again, it flutters great.



It's an edge zero with the stop bar likely removed. I did that and it worked. The EZ2's do it as well, but the arms don't stay put as well.


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## pushpull7 (Jul 6, 2014)

BTW, of all the guitars I've had, this murican deluxe HSS strat is the best for fluttering. The arm stays back if you want and it just goes nuts. Second closest would be the OFR, but the arms are like the EZ2, they don't stay put thus making it more of a problem.


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## decreebass (Jul 6, 2014)

Nlelith said:


> I've changed strings on my 7 yesterday. Unfortunately, I had only heavy gauge strings, so two springs couldn't handle 11-50 set + 70 strings (but it feels like 2 springs would be enough for set of 10-46+68 in drop G). Tried to set springs parallel, didn't make fluttering any better.
> 
> *decreebass,* actually, now I think that adding/removing springs won't affect fluttering, if string gauge remains the same, since it will require same tension on them. Logically, I think less tension should make fluttering better, and vice-versa, because more tension makes trem more "resistant" to angle change, thus, inhibit vibration more fast... At least I think physics works this way.



Yea that was my point from the beginning (not sure if it was this thread or not) but either way, to have strings tuned, there needs to be a specific tension; whether or not there's 2, 3, or 5 springs - no matter what the tension has to balance the strings. So if I remove a spring, then I still have to increase the remaining springs' tension to compensate so in effect nothing has changed unless some microscopic forces act differently on two versus three springs.

I dunno, it's all confusing and I guess we still don't have a definitive solution lol.


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## DrPaul (Jul 6, 2014)

I would agree; my left hand strat (though I'm right handed) flutters really well with the tremolo arm stiff. I think that there are 3 springs in parallel.

I'm going to see if an increase in tension would make the tremolo flutter differently by changing the strings and adjusting the springs to match the string tension.

I going to try it tomorrow.

EDIT: I changed the strings, and it seems that it doesn't make much difference, so tension really doesn't affect the flutter at all.


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## Nlelith (Jul 8, 2014)

Btw, there was a thread similar to this a while ago, and here's what one forum user suggested:


Misfit said:


> This is the most important part: The two posts that the knife edges of the bridge make contact with should be of equal height, and the knife edges themselves must not be dull.


I did set up Floyd posts on equal height, it helped just a little bit, and knife edges are in great condition, but maybe lubricating them will also help? Did anyone try that?


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## decreebass (Jul 8, 2014)

Wow! I had completely overlooked this aspect of the trem. I wonder if Petrucci or the guy in the video modded his at all? I'd just be afraid that having too sharp of a knife-edge would eventually cause a deformation OF the knife-edge... But I can definitely see how the heights being equal could make a difference.


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## Nlelith (Jul 8, 2014)

*decreebass,* funny thing is that you posted in that very thread I took a quote from. And about knife edges, I don't think that you need to sharpen them, lol, just already worn out knife edges going to cause problems with fluttering.


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## decreebass (Jul 8, 2014)

Nlelith said:


> *decreebass,* funny thing is that you posted in that very thread I took a quote from. And about knife edges, I don't think that you need to sharpen them, lol, just already worn out knife edges going to cause problems with fluttering.



lol I need to start subscribing to the threads I post in  I totally have no recollection of it (maybe it progressed after I left).


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## Timfever (Sep 7, 2017)

Well, I'm a. It late to the party, but I recently picked up a killer Ltd ed BC Rich Warlock with a Kahler, and I did notice trouble with flittering -- but 90% was that wussy ass bar they come with with. Either get a heavy metal bar (if you wanna spend $30...) or any 5 mm FR style bar ya can find online. 

Just like a Les Paul having more sustain cause it weighs 12 lbs? Well, the extra weight and density of those bars probably makes quite a difference.


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## Timfever (Sep 7, 2017)

Oh, and always be brave enough to mess around with your bar's tension and all of that...I have one of those new Floyd FRXs on an old SG of mine (a 94 Special, my 2nd guitar) and I had to futz with the push in bar (BTW? Is that GREATEST FUCKING INVENTION EVER or what?) for days to get it right. Same with my Kahler.


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## bostjan (Sep 7, 2017)

Way late to this party as well, but since someone else bumped this thread up...

The freshman physics version of Hooke's law is that the restoring force of a spring is directly proportional to the displacement from resting position, or F = k x

What we are interested in is establishing periodic motion of the system, where the mass (the bridge) is pulled beyond the resting position, so that the force will then push the bridge back, establishing a damped harmonic oscillator with damping force given by Fd = -cv. The differential equation of concern here is ma + cv + kx = 0, where m is the mass of the system, a is the bridge's acceleration, c the damping force coefficient, v the speed of motion, k the spring stiffness, and x the position of the bridge. The solution to the equation is of the form x = e^Bt, where B = (-c ± sqrt(c² - 4mk))/2m

The oscillator must be "underdamped," so c² < 4mk, otherwise flutter will not work. So, the square of the damping force must be less than four times the mass of the system multiplied by the spring's stiffness. Adding more stiffness helps (c² < 4mk more likely if k is big), if the mass of the system is bigger, or if the damping force is smaller. So, lube up your bearings, drop in extra springs, and use heavier strings.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Sep 7, 2017)

bostjan said:


> Way late to this party as well, but since someone else bumped this thread up...
> 
> The freshman physics version of Hooke's law is that the restoring force of a spring is directly proportional to the displacement from resting position, or F = k x
> 
> ...


Well that takes me back to college physics. Nice write up.

Here's a picture of underdamping vs over:






Correct me if I'm wrong, but a higher mass on the bridge will make a big difference as well, right? I. E. A bigger trem block? If you view it as a mass-spring system (with string tension rather than gravity), that would be a higher mass, which would lower the oscillating frequency and offset the damping. Or something. It's been a while.


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## odibrom (Sep 7, 2017)

@bostjan that's interesting... I'm not versed in physics, so my understanding is based on my personal experience. I have 3 LoPro edge guitars, all 25", all bolt on, same woods, etc... one is 6 strings the other 2 are 7 stringers. They are all loaded with D'Addario XL .009 packs and all in E Standard and all with 3 parallel springs. The 6 stringer flutters for ages, while the 7s don't. On the 7s, one flutters better than the other. Both 7s are exactly equal (both Ibbys RG2027XVV), difference being the pickups used. Why would one flutter better?

To my simple physics understanding, it looks like a pendular problem, hooked to string/spring system, but a pendular problem. Adding mass to the trem will improve fluttering, but adding tension to the string/spring system won't, which is what happens from the 6 to the 7s. Although trem mass is raised, it looks like the also raised string/spring tension gets raised in a bigger effect.

Now for a curious note, _raised/squealed flutters_ (when one has the trem arm pointed to the guitar's bottom) flutter for longer time than _downed/dived flutters_ (when one has the trem arm pointed to the guitar's neck)... this makes me think that the more distance the trem center mass is from the pivot point, the better, for there will be a bigger lever and therefore, a harder to level the movement energy.

Also, as stated elsewhere in these forums, I would bet in less strings (number of strings) than in more for a better fluttering action. This may imply for harder springs or stretched longer in order to keep tension balance.

So, we have here a possible market product: heavy weight to add mass to trems for better fluttering... wait there already is, but their argument is tone...


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## bostjan (Sep 7, 2017)

Well, my post was deliberately oversimplified. There are actually a lot of factors at play:

How much impulse is applied to the system? If you apply more initial displacement, the amplitude of your flutter will be higher, assuming you begin the flutter by simply letting go of the arm. Flicking the arm is usually a better technique, IMO, because it decreases to contact time of the force for a better impulse.

The RG2027X has some wires coming out of the trem, no? Does this interfere with the motion of the bridge in any way? I don't know.

Pickups with very strong magnets also increase damping.

The bridge is a SHO (simple harmonic oscillator), except for several little facts and the not-so-little fact that it's attached to a vibrating string that is its own SHO with a much higher frequency. The amount of flutter has to do with the overall achieved frequency-modulated tone of the string, as it is recreated by the amplifier you are using. I don't know how amp settings, pickups, blah blah blah, affects the overall effect, but for simplicity's sake, I think looking at the bridge itself to start is key. If the bridge doesn't flutter, then I guess, nothing else much matters.

I have guitars with lo pro's, guitars with OFR's, guitars with Kahler's, and Parker trems. In my experience, the lo pro edge trems flutter "easier" than the others. For the longest time, I didn't think I could flutter on my Parker. I *think* the deal maker or breaker here is in technique. They all have different ergonomics, and my guitar-playing friends have different flutter-preferences than I do. Obviously, you could make a bridge that would theoretically flutter nonstop for days, but if you can't get the darn thing started, it doesn't much matter.

Oh, and, sorry, the mass of the system - so everything that is moving to create the flutter effect - the trem, sustain block, string retainers, bar, whatever is moving.


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## odibrom (Sep 7, 2017)

So... the question we all nerds want to ask but are afraid to sound silly:

If I want to improve my guitars' fluttering time, what should I do? Change spring combo: more or less springs? Add mass to the trem? Lighten the string gauge?...

Oh, @bostjan my 2027s do have some wire coming out of the trem, but I don't feel it dampening the movement. Overall I feel the 7s trem way more stiffer than the 6 stringer one, meaning I have to apply more force to achieve the same effect of dive or squeal. There is obviously more tension in the sustem.

Less tension and more mass on the bridge = endless fluttering?

As for fluttering technique, I see 2 ways on each of the up or down pitch fluttering, one having the trem arm pointing towards the headstock and at the opposite direction. For the up pitch fluttering, I feel it is better to have the trem arm pointing away from the headstock and pressing it down towards the guitar's body for string stretch, releasing it after. For the down pitch fluttering, I prefer to point the trem's arm at the headstock and again press it against the guitar body for spring stretch before releasing it.

How do you do yours?


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## LiveOVErdrive (Sep 7, 2017)

Let's look at the damping ratio equation:

ζ = c/(2√(km))

We want the damping ratio to be lower, so we want to increase "m" and "k". So:

To get more flutter:
- more/heavier springs and strings
- more mass on the bridge (get a big heavy tone block)

Does this make sense with what people have said about 7 strings fluttering less? No. But maybe there are other factors there that make "c" higher and increase the damping factor.

Side note : I haven't talked physics in years and am currently loving this thread.


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## trem licking (Sep 7, 2017)

lowest number of springs possible and lowest gauge strings you can stand will be the best scenario for the flutter. high mass trem via heavy block helps, and a tight bar is essential. 6 strings flutter best as already said but i've had an 8 string floyd fluttering like butter, so string number isn't the hugest factor. also, lube the knife edges with chapstic for overall better performance


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## bostjan (Sep 8, 2017)

Maybe I should start a GoFundMe to see if I can raise enough money to do the study. I'd need four as-identical-as-possible trem-equipped guitars with different bridges, as well as three sets of strings for each, and multiple different springs. Then I'd have to do a shitload of fluttering and model the damping factors from the waveforms to see how well the theory matched the empirical data. It's probably cost a few grand and take at least several months to finish, though.


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## odibrom (Sep 8, 2017)

... and you get to keep the guitars... best part of the deal! 

@trem licking, you're right on that part of keeping the arm tight and I follow the same idea

... now back to your (everyone) fluttering technique, how do you do it/relate to what I've posted before?


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## DjentyBoi7 (Jan 16, 2021)

Disclaimer: I know this reply is super late, but hear me out.

Hmmmm, I think I have an idea. Check out this:  That guitar has the best flutter I've ever heard, and it's a 7 string. And, get this: it has a longer 26.5" scale length, and so does that guitar with the Edge Zero from earlier in the thread. I'm beginning to think that maybe scale length has a say in how well a 7 string floating tremolo flutters. One idea could be that because a longer scale length allows you to have thinner string gauge, it helps the bridge flutter, but however the string tension would still remain similar to a 25.5" with normal strings so that's probably wrong. This whole scale length this is just me connecting the dots, so I could be totally wrong, but it could actually have something to do with the flutter.


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## ixlramp (Jan 17, 2021)

I have a physics degree and bostjan seems to have the right idea.
So to answer the question, Kahlers do not flutter (much) because they lack mass, no big trem block. A heavy trem arm might help as mentioned earlier.
High mass is needed for high momentum to make the trem repeatedly 'overshoot', resulting in some oscillation before coming to rest. The mass and momentum needs to be high to overcome the damping effect of springs and trem pivot.


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