# Blackmachine FF8 teardown post?



## narad (Mar 25, 2018)

Hey guys -- remember that post, may have been on Facebook of the tech that had received the burl FF8 from a customer for a setup, and proceeded to inspect and document all these various parts and kept uncovering all these subpar bits and hacks, and it was just like basically a terribly-built instrument? Then the owner requested it was deleted?

I'm looking for a copy of that - curious if anyone happened to have saved it or screenshotted it before it was taken down. I vaguely recall chatting about it here, and maybe there were some privately hosted screengrabs?


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## pott (Mar 25, 2018)

He moved his blog to Facebook: AVH Tech Blog and Meshuggah Guitarchive.

This post was on his FB blog as far as I recall, but it now seems to be gone...


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## narad (Mar 25, 2018)

pott said:


> He moved his blog to Facebook: AVH Tech Blog and Meshuggah Guitarchive.
> 
> This post was on his FB blog as far as I recall, but it now seems to be gone...



I guess I should contact Cambridge Analytics then, maybe they have a copy haha


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## Esp Griffyn (Mar 25, 2018)

I'd be interested to see this, I never really bought into the Blackmachine hype and it would be interesting to see what kind of corners were being cut. I've always thought they were extremely expensive for what they were.


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## narad (Mar 25, 2018)

Esp Griffyn said:


> I'd be interested to see this, I never really bought into the Blackmachine hype and it would be interesting to see what kind of corners were being cut. I've always thought they were extremely expensive for what they were.



Well you know, these were selling for like 2-4k GBP, then hyped into $10k+ USD, and Doug adjusted his prices because people were just flipping them anyway. So it depends on your definition of "what they are" -- a guitar producible by a guy with a ~$3k GBP pricetag, or pure unobtainable and your guitar hero's most lauded guitar. It's kind of both. 

But yea, the teardown was interesting because that was my favorite FF8, and it was clear that in terms of craftsmanship it was worse than basically all of my guitars.


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Mar 25, 2018)

I never understood the allure to Blackmachines. Never played one though

Although it can’t be much better than the sum of its parts. At the end of the day it’s still a piece of wood with metal bits and electrical parts


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## KnightBrolaire (Mar 25, 2018)

I would be very intrigued to see this. It'd be fun from a luthiery nerd standpoint and just to destroy the mystique of blackmachine.


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## cip 123 (Mar 25, 2018)

You can find AVH repairs talking about one in this thread - http://www.metalguitarist.org/forum/guitar-instrument-discussion/47089-blackmachine-available-2.html


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## gunch (Mar 25, 2018)

Wouldn't surprise me 

Has Doug even built anything since 2012?


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## ramses (Mar 25, 2018)

Are you trying to decide if spending $20k is worth it or not?


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## oracles (Mar 25, 2018)

I wish I saved screens of it, the things he found on that 8 were awful. He definitely shattered some Blackmachine fanboy hearts that day.


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## narad (Mar 25, 2018)

ramses said:


> Are you trying to decide if spending $20k is worth it or not?



I mentioned it in passing on rig-talk in justifying why I didn't think the quilt FF8 was worth anything near the $25k asking price. I mean, it was so damning it really should be floating around a bit.


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## ramses (Mar 25, 2018)

narad said:


> I mentioned it in passing on rig-talk in justifying why I didn't think the quilt FF8 was worth anything near the $25k asking price. I mean, it was so damning it really should be floating around a bit.



I remember someone's post showing flaws in his Blackmachine. Do not believe it was the same post as the one you allude to. I wasn't surprised at all by the flaws, and indeed it did support the idea that the only reason to pay >$20k for a Blackmachine is that they are made of the high quality material known as Unobtanium.

After reading that one post, there was no doubt in my mind that a Skervesen would be no worst, and an order of magnitude cheaper.


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 26, 2018)

I know the post you're talking about. A few folks have been trying to hunt down a record of it, but it seems to be pretty well buried. 

So much for the internet always remembering. 

Perhaps try contacting Allen at AVH directly? I'm sure he has his reasons for nuking it, but perhaps you could get some info.


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## pylyo (Mar 26, 2018)

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> I never understood the allure to Blackmachines. Never played one though
> 
> Although it can’t be much better than the sum of its parts. At the end of the day it’s still a piece of wood with metal bits and electrical parts



So is the 120€ Squire and 12k€ PRS private stock and they are night and day difference.

You just haven't played them. 

I would never pay those silly prices they are selling now and I owned two B2s, both bought before hype took its toll and completely reached its pike... but they were probably the nicest guitars i ever owned and I owned some. Maybe just not the most versatile (speaking from the dad rock aspect) but they felt and played amazingly good, chords were full and juicy, palm mutes were perfection too, big, tight but articulated, all that through the whole length of the fretboard. I yet have to play other guitars that could do that and that good.
Also, I owned several Skervesens too, besides the obvious similarity in looks, they felt nothing alike.. 
It was obvious that Doug really took the time and carefully picked the best woods he could get for achieving things he had on his mind, as the guitars ringed out so good and balanced..
I'm not hyping them, as I don't own them, nor am I a huge fan of Doug tbh, as he bailed me twice regarding a build that was promised.. but the guitars were amazinggg! 

Another thing, they were not the pinnacle of the cleanest work and wouldn't satisfy people that have guitars for showcasing, like PRS PS and such, there was tons of filler in binding of both of my b2s and the backplate cavities were done strangely poor.. but man, when you took them in the hands and start playing them.. Would love one over any PS tbh.
That's mine experiences with them.. 
Waiting for this silly hype to ends, so I can afford another one, no matter how old (I actually prefer the old classical full ebony on ash body).

Owned a few b6 too but those are not Doug made.


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## Lorcan Ward (Mar 26, 2018)

^The amount people are willing to pay has definitely peaked judging from recent sales and reverb ads. Most people who would have paid outrageous prices have already owned a BM or have moved on and lost interest. I don't see it dropping down to a reasonable price, at least what I'd be willing to pay anyway but like many others I gave up ever getting my B2 from Doug and moved on. People will still pay Doug a crazy amount for one of his builds and that will never change. 

There is always a lot of confusion about BM and their price, early prices and revised prices can be found searching this site. Its owners, flippers, even people who never played one that drove the price way up. If you bought a BM for 3k and sold it for 8k to a guy whole sold it for 12k then whats it worth? Its worth whatever someone pays for it since the demand sets the price. I wish Doug had gone through with his plan to make a production range like Strandberg.

I might have some screenshots of that article. I'm not a fan of Al's hoax articles but this was clear with detailed pictures. That was quite an old build, Nolly did a NGD here and Misha owned it before his B2. I've played a bunch of later Blackmachines and they were all incredible guitars, the Koa B2 was one of the best guitars i've ever laid my hands on. I'd love to try another from around that time to compare with the hi-end custom guitars I've owned now and see how it stacks up quality wise. Tonally and playability they are absolute monsters. There is a reason 1000+ BM copies/clones/variations etc are made every year.


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Mar 27, 2018)

Blackmachine copies sell for the same reason Warhol prints do: The target consumer fancies themseves capable of recognizing greatness, but buy as if aesthetic is the only merit.


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## Hollowway (Mar 27, 2018)

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> Blackmachine copies sell for the same reason Warhol prints do: The target consumer fancies themseves capable of recognizing greatness, but buy as if aesthetic is the only merit.



That’s true for me. It’s why I keep eyeballing the SK and DY Jem Jrs.


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## Lemonbaby (Mar 27, 2018)

Lorcan Ward said:


> There is a reason 1000+ BM copies/clones/variations etc are made every year.


Makes total sense. Or wait... urhm... are there even more LP copies made every year? 

Just kidding. Interesting discussion - changed my life.


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## teqnick (Mar 27, 2018)

It would be rad if some disgustingly wealthy teen got one & ran it over with a Daewoo Lanos.


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## sakeido (Mar 27, 2018)

I had a deposit in for a blackmachine 10 years ago. Doug was a weirdo to deal with. Then I finally got a chance to play one... and sold my deposit the next week. It's too bad I took that money and put it into a Sherman that I never received (ha!) but the B7 I played just wasn't that great. Looked cool, outrageously cool but that was it's most noteworthy quality imo. I only wish I had gotten now because I could have sold it for two or three times what I paid.

I've touched a lot of guitars that played better. The "blackmachine sound" which the original hype focused on isn't anything special... any lightweight guitar with a super hot set of pickups is right in that ballpark.. hell, my Parker sounds better


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Mar 27, 2018)

Does anyone else feel that Blackmachines only look right in the hands of Martin Shkreli?


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## Albake21 (Mar 27, 2018)

I personally always loved the look of Blackmachines, but that really was all that attracted me to them. They always seemed too overhyped to me. Awesome idea, but thankfully now a days there are so many options similar to it.


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## narad (Mar 27, 2018)

There's just something undeniably classy about them:


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Mar 27, 2018)

Albake21 said:


> I personally always loved the look of Blackmachines, but that really was all that attracted me to them. They always seemed too overhyped to me. Awesome idea, but thankfully now a days there are so many options similar to it.



Such as twenty quality guitars.


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## KnightBrolaire (Mar 27, 2018)

narad said:


> There's just something undeniably classy about them:


Guy fieri approves of the flame inlay


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## Frostbite (Mar 27, 2018)

JSanta said:


> Congrats on the Strat! From what I've seen from the 60th anniversary guitars, they don't have a serial number on the headstock, or engraved neck plate like they did for the 50th anniversary models in 2004.





KnightBrolaire said:


> Guy fieri approves of the flame inlay


Who wouldn't? That thing is a one way ticket to flavor town


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## narad (Mar 27, 2018)

Quite amazing that the gross tribal thing and Nolly's sick quilt one are just a few years apart. Guy really got his act together.


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## teqnick (Mar 27, 2018)

BlackmaSkervAcaciWaterCatSby

Seriously, a handful of builders can thank Doug for lubricating the demand of a now tired superstrat


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## cip 123 (Mar 27, 2018)

Personally I've always through they looked like utter sh*t. 

I don't mean it in a hate way, but the early ones were beat to heck and covered in stupid flame inlays with what looked like basic generic hardware you scored of ebay. It never added up to me why people loved them. They never looked particularly well finished. Basic as you can get imo.

If anything they B6's with the hannes bridge looked really nice. But nowadays I could just buy a Mayones John browne model, the plain ash one.

Or even just build one myself, to get that authentic blackmachine look.


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## possumkiller (Mar 27, 2018)

teqnick said:


> BlackmaSkervAcaciWaterCatSby
> 
> Seriously, a handful of builders can thank Doug for lubricating the demand of a now tired superstrat


Don't forget the swiss toblerone blackdroids that were popular here for a long time.


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## teqnick (Mar 27, 2018)

possumkiller said:


> Don't forget the swiss toblerone blackdroids that were popular here for a long time.



God damn that's a throwback. To think ive spent nearly a decade on this forum.


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 27, 2018)

possumkiller said:


> Don't forget the swiss toblerone blackdroids that were popular here for a long time.



To be fair, he was making those things years before Blackmachine hype really spread around here.


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## possumkiller (Mar 27, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> To be fair, he was making those things years before Blackmachine hype really spread around here.


No first he was just making overpriced sapele strats, superstrats and LPish things. Barebones simplest of simple guitars to build. The more popular the BMs got around here, the more his guitars began to morph into "blackdroids". He used to do a normal strat forearm and belly carve on his RG shape. Then he started making his bodies thinner "to be lighter" (because of his "bad back"). The forearm contour was replaced with his "classical" bevel and the belly carve was replaced by the blackmachine bevel around the whole back edge. It wasn't until around 2010 or 2011 that he straight up changed his whole website image, logo and brand to blackdroid and even started putting the metal plates on the back. Blackmachine hype was already here when I got here in 2008.


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 27, 2018)

possumkiller said:


> No first he was just making overpriced sapele strats, superstrats and LPish things. Barebones simplest of simple guitars to build. The more popular the BMs got around here, the more his guitars began to morph into "blackdroids". He used to do a normal strat forearm and belly carve on his RG shape. Then he started making his bodies thinner "to be lighter" (because of his "bad back"). The forearm contour was replaced with his "classical" bevel and the belly carve was replaced by the blackmachine bevel around the whole back edge. It wasn't until around 2010 or 2011 that he straight up changed his whole website image, logo and brand to blackdroid and even started putting the metal plates on the back. Blackmachine hype was already here when I got here in 2008.



I just remember seeing his plain RG things around 06'/07'.

He totally hopped on the BM hype-train, but it's not like they were a departure from what he had been doing.

I remember him always being super bitter about how his half finished RGs didn't take off but Doug's guitars did. 

I remember seeing his posts on other forums until I found this place.


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## possumkiller (Mar 27, 2018)

I mean I don't doubt they played nice as long as everything was set up properly. I just thought $3500 (last estimate I heard around 2011) is a bit much for something so plain and simple that he could slap together in a week. Plus I thought he had at least a little originality until the blatant blackmachine ripping off.


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## Sermo Lupi (Mar 27, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I know the post you're talking about. A few folks have been trying to hunt down a record of it, but it seems to be pretty well buried.
> 
> So much for the internet always remembering.
> 
> Perhaps try contacting Allen at AVH directly? I'm sure he has his reasons for nuking it, but perhaps you could get some info.



Yes, going to the source is the best bet. I spent some time searching AVH's old website and Facebook page on the Wayback Machine, but sadly, while the website is surprisingly well-archived, the Facebook page only has a single capture. It'd help to narrow down the search if I knew the date of the review (for example, that MetalGuitarist thread is from 2012, but I only see AVH offering an opinion, not commenting on a review), yet the Internet does not do such a great job of archiving pages on obscure websites that are taken down shortly after they're put up; photos struggle even more with preservation. Of course, there is some comfort to be taken from this in an age of digital paranoia. 

The price debacle is what it is. Over the years I feel I've read enough comments on here praising free market capitalism or foreboding a tulip hysteria crash that we could jointly author an economics textbook on the 'Blackmachine phenomenon'. I don't see how quality of materials or craftsmanship can ever justify the soaring prices of Doug's guitars; what I see is arguably the most iconic metal guitar of the last decade commanding equally exceptional prices. Obviously part of the mystique can be ascribed to that Blackmachine black magic, but at this point flaws would probably be described as 'quirks' that are perceived as contributing to the mojo of the instruments. 

I would be curious to the see AVH's analysis in any case. Allen always has insights worth reading.


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## jephjacques (Mar 27, 2018)

"Most iconic metal guitar of the last decade?" Maybe on internet forums for guitar nerds. Normal metal dorks still jerk it to matte black ESP explorers.


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## Albake21 (Mar 28, 2018)

possumkiller said:


> Don't forget the swiss toblerone blackdroids that were popular here for a long time.


I think I'm missing this one, what guitar are you referring to?


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## StevenC (Mar 28, 2018)

Albake21 said:


> I think I'm missing this one, what guitar are you referring to?


.........


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 28, 2018)

StevenC said:


> .........





I can't believe that made the jump.


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## StevenC (Mar 28, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I can't believe that made the jump.


It didn't, but one of my first posts on the new forum was to test it.

To answer dude's question Hufschmid


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## KnightBrolaire (Mar 28, 2018)

Albake21 said:


> I think I'm missing this one, what guitar are you referring to?


rhymes with oofschmeeed


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## narad (Mar 28, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I can't believe that made the jump.



The worst part is that the censor is just "....." so for people who aren't in on it just looks like people being jerks haha


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 28, 2018)

StevenC said:


> It didn't, but one of my first posts on the new forum was to test it.
> 
> To answer dude's question Hufschmid



Awwwww


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 28, 2018)

narad said:


> The worst part is that the censor is just "....." so for people who aren't in on it just looks like people being jerks haha



That was the best part. 

Remember that guy who freaked the fuck out because he thought we were all just being dicks? I got like 15 PMs and a dozen reports. Good times.


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## Frostbite (Mar 28, 2018)

Backstory on hufschmid censor? I know very little of him but his site comes off as pretty pretentious


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## Randy (Mar 28, 2018)

Frostbite said:


> Backstory on hufschmid censor? I know very little of him but his site comes off as pretty pretentious



He had some strong disagreements with the former management on this site over some offtopic things and also his rabid self promotion and inability to take valid criticsm, at which point he became conspiratorial and accusatory to the point HE wanted all evidence of him on this site removed.

Before it devolved to that point, I got along with him pretty well and enjoyed seeing his work. Some people respond to pressure poorly though


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## Albake21 (Mar 28, 2018)

Randy said:


> He had some strong disagreements with the former management on this site over some offtopic things and also his rabid self promotion and inability to take valid criticsm, at which point he became conspiratorial and accusatory to the point HE wanted all evidence of him on this site removed.
> 
> Before it devolved to that point, I got along with him pretty well and enjoyed seeing his work. Some people respond to pressure poorly though


How long ago was all of this?


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## Frostbite (Mar 28, 2018)

Randy said:


> He had some strong disagreements with the former management on this site over some offtopic things and also his rabid self promotion and inability to take valid criticsm, at which point he became conspiratorial and accusatory to the point HE wanted all evidence of him on this site removed.
> 
> Before it devolved to that point, I got along with him pretty well and enjoyed seeing his work. Some people respond to pressure poorly though


That's unfortunate. Dude seems to make some pretty amazing work.


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 28, 2018)

Frostbite said:


> That's unfortunate. Dude seems to make some pretty amazing work.



By most accounts, not really. 

Definitely not good enough to deal with the guy.


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## Randy (Mar 28, 2018)

Albake21 said:


> How long ago was all of this?



8 or 9 years ago, if memory serves. It was before I was a moderator but after Alex bought the site, so mod team was s7eve, Ddorian and some of the other guys in between I'm forgetting.


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## Randy (Mar 28, 2018)

Frostbite said:


> That's unfortunate. Dude seems to make some pretty amazing work.



I've never seen or played one in person, so I can't say but I just enjoyed seeing his build threads and he also used to make some pretty good YouTube videos. The value and quality of his stuff or even his proficiency level I can't comment on but seeing someone working with wood in depth wasn't AS common a thing online as it is now, and I did learn a lot.


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## possumkiller (Mar 28, 2018)

He came to America in the 90s and went to luthier school. Apparently he only learned to build telecaster type guitars (beginner level) because he refused to do anything other than bolt-on, no tremolos, no angled headstock. Hell, before his blackdroid period he wouldn't even glue a laminate top to a body. A lot of his new "features" were just lazy techniques. Things like "infinite radius" aka too lazy to radius a fingerboard. For him the whole blackmachine inspiration deal meant he could get even more lazy and simple in his building while charging more money for a build.


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## xwmucradiox (Mar 28, 2018)

I had a Blackmachine about 10 years ago. It looked killer. Played alright. Sounded alright. Build quality was nowhere close to what it should have been. Crappy understanding of how to use tools was apparent in the sanding of the ebony top. I sold it here and I'm sure whoever owns it now regularly jerks off thinking about it because it has exploded in value. 

I don't doubt that the ones owned by famous guys are as good as they say. Everything I learned from dealing with Doug tells me that he would deign to deliver a guitar on time and with any care about the customer's specs (he built mine with the wrong body wood and then told me I would have to wait another 2 years if I wanted a replacement with the specs I originally ordered) if it was for a regular person but that he would probably put a lot more effort into making a top notch instrument if it was going to someone with profile. So sure I bet Nolly has a real nice Blackmachine. The rest of the regular folks who were paying $4000 though got instruments that were long delayed, rush built, and then average quality.


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## narad (Mar 28, 2018)

xwmucradiox said:


> I had a Blackmachine about 10 years ago. It looked killer. Played alright. Sounded alright. Build quality was nowhere close to what it should have been. Crappy understanding of how to use tools was apparent in the sanding of the ebony top. I sold it here and I'm sure whoever owns it now regularly jerks off thinking about it because it has exploded in value.
> 
> I don't doubt that the ones owned by famous guys are as good as they say. Everything I learned from dealing with Doug tells me that he would deign to deliver a guitar on time and with any care about the customer's specs (he built mine with the wrong body wood and then told me I would have to wait another 2 years if I wanted a replacement with the specs I originally ordered) if it was for a regular person but that he would probably put a lot more effort into making a top notch instrument if it was going to someone with profile. So sure I bet Nolly has a real nice Blackmachine. The rest of the regular folks who were paying $4000 though got instruments that were long delayed, rush built, and then average quality.



Nolly got his first one before periphery though, maybe even before red seas fire -- and definitely before that ep release. Then he sold his more recent one, kept the old one. Read into that what you will. Sentimental value?


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## sakeido (Mar 28, 2018)

narad said:


> Nolly got his first one before periphery though, maybe even before red seas fire -- and definitely before that ep release. Then he sold his more recent one, kept the old one. Read into that what you will. Sentimental value?



nolly was a bit of a youtube sensation back then though, wasn't he? I remember watchin his old guitar cover vids, he was pulling a good number of views in a niche genre 10+ years ago


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## pylyo (Mar 28, 2018)

Yup, I remember his Sikth covers with his white IBanez PGM100..


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## xwmucradiox (Mar 28, 2018)

narad said:


> Nolly got his first one before periphery though, maybe even before red seas fire -- and definitely before that ep release. Then he sold his more recent one, kept the old one. Read into that what you will. Sentimental value?



I ordered mine in 2005 or 2006 IIRC. Im not sure when any of the famous guys got theirs.


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## narad (Mar 28, 2018)

sakeido said:


> nolly was a bit of a youtube sensation back then though, wasn't he? I remember watchin his old guitar cover vids, he was pulling a good number of views in a niche genre 10+ years ago



Yea, but I think the idea of a youtube sensation have changed drastically. It's like a lot more of a credible thing these days ("youtuber"), and companies have accepted using them as a marketing strategy. Just as far as quality goes, I think back circa 2005/6, you weren't getting a nicer anything based on your youtube counts. 

But I think Nolly knew Doug a bit, just being a UK guitarist into Sikth, and maybe he just builds nicer guitars for those he knows. Nolly's original is still probably my favorite B2... that was back before we referred to those as "private stock quilt tops" in our for sale ads


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## possumkiller (Mar 28, 2018)

The only thing that ever drew me to blackmachine was the thin RGish body with ebony top and using ebony for neck fillets. I couldn't stand the headstock. The Parker headstock was horrible and he managed to make it so much worse. Other than that they always struck me in much the same way as Hufschmids in the sky high prices for extreme simplicity. For the money they wanted you could get something that had a lot more skill and attention to tiny details put into it.


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## lurè (Mar 28, 2018)

I like the headstock design but unfortunately it has become a "standard" on modern custom instruments.


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## Esp Griffyn (Mar 28, 2018)

I remember that Hoofschmidt guy, I asked him if he'd ever consider doing angled headstocks (who wants an "ultra modern" super strat with a straight headstock and string trees?) and he got really angry when I said I didn't believe him and I didn't think he could do angled headstocks.

I remember his shameless self-promotion too, he'd post "customer" reviews of his own guitars under his own name, where he was claiming a customer had reviewed the guitar elsewhere. I'm fairly sure he was bigging up his brand with fake accounts posing at Hoofschmidt fans.

I think he is making guitar picks out of wood these days, that is venture now. It's more in line with his wood-working ability I suppose.


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## narad (Mar 28, 2018)

Esp Griffyn said:


> I remember his shameless self-promotion too, he'd post "customer" reviews of his own guitars under his own name, where he was claiming a customer had reviewed the guitar elsewhere. I'm fairly sure he was bigging up his brand with fake accounts posing at Hoofschmidt fans.



He was a trendsetter. Now we have guys all posting about wanting X or Y gear from their duplicate accounts. The whole thing's not very clever, but he was just a tad bit less clever about it than is necessary.


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## Sermo Lupi (Mar 28, 2018)

jephjacques said:


> "Most iconic metal guitar of the last decade?" Maybe on internet forums for guitar nerds. Normal metal dorks still jerk it to matte black ESP explorers.



They're certainly more popular, but are they more iconic? Of all the things that are overrated about Blackmachine, hype isn't one of them. It's a black, barebones guitar that, despite its generic features on paper, somehow managed to upend the online metal guitar world. The design has inspired copies from at least a dozen other luthiers and manufacturers, and the desire for 'the real deal' propelled asking prices into the tens of thousands (with more than a few transactions having allegedly reached those numbers).

I can sympathise with the hate, believe me. I've never played one of these things and have no interest in pumping up the brand, yet while I can agree it's certainly not the most popular guitar in the world, I can't name any other guitars that top it terms of notoriety. So if you're saying a poll at the front door of any Guitar Center would disprove the statement that Blackmachines are 'iconic,' I think you're missing the point. Yes, it was 'forums for guitar nerds' that made Blackmachine blow up; what your summary fails to account for is that these nerds somehow caused the value of the guitars to bloat to over ten times Doug's original asking prices in some cases. Fad luthiers are a dime a dozen on sites like SevenString.org, but not with those results. Around this place, as well as similar forums like MG that fancy themselves the hubs of the metal guitar world and its gear, no brand over the last ten years has caused bigger ripples than Blackmachine. 



narad said:


> Yea, but I think the idea of a youtube sensation have changed drastically. It's like a lot more of a credible thing these days ("youtuber"), and companies have accepted using them as a marketing strategy. Just as far as quality goes, I think back circa 2005/6, you weren't getting a nicer anything based on your youtube counts.
> 
> But I think Nolly knew Doug a bit, just being a UK guitarist into Sikth, and maybe he just builds nicer guitars for those he knows. Nolly's original is still probably my favorite B2... that was back before we referred to those as "private stock quilt tops" in our for sale ads



You'd know better than I would, but I think Doug really values up-and-coming players in the metal scene, especially from the UK. Nolly would have fit that mold from the very start seeing as he was a heck of a player even in his earliest YouTube videos. In that case it was probably more to do with skill and respect than some sort of favouritism toward fame; either way, I don't know that this would have secured him a better guitar. But this thread certainly isn't the first time I've heard reports of Doug's 'preferential treatment' toward notable players.

RE: 'private stock quilt tops', it's funny, because to me I remember the bragging about the timber quality being there from the very start. Not in terms of figure grade, though, but rather the age of woods used. For example, Nolly wrote of that original B2 that 'It's got a really thick, hundred-year-old quilted maple top and a forty-year-old mahogany back'. It's somewhat noteworthy, since a large part of Blackmachine's notoriety came from the 'mythical tone' resulting from these timbers, and the age of them served to emphasise that. I realise other manufacturers do this as well, particularly for Honduran mahogany that was harvested pre-ban, but maybe not as such a crutch for the marketing of the guitar; such descriptions have been bandied about for years (more by fans than by anyone affiliated with Blackmachine) to justify the growing value and reputation of the instruments.

Not surprised to see the 'private stock' moniker get attached to them now, though. What better way for a gear flipper to establish Blackmachine as a cork-sniffing brand to match their cork-sniffing prices?


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## possumkiller (Mar 28, 2018)

I think it is the 59 Les Paul of the extreme metal world. So many people blew all of the "mojo super secret black magic" BS out of proportion that it got out of control. I think everybody knows by now that there is nothing in a 59 LP that makes it any more special than a 58 or a 60. I think most people have figured out the same thing with Blackmachine by now. Of course there will always be idiots willing to shell out extreme amounts of money just to be in the exclusive club. That is another thing that drives up the price. They aren't just expensive, they are rare and hard to get. That makes people want it just that much more.


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## narad (Mar 28, 2018)

possumkiller said:


> I think it is the 59 Les Paul of the extreme metal world. So many people blew all of the "mojo super secret black magic" BS out of proportion that it got out of control. I think everybody knows by now that there is nothing in a 59 LP that makes it any more special than a 58 or a 60. I think most people have figured out the same thing with Blackmachine by now. Of course there will always be idiots willing to shell out extreme amounts of money just to be in the exclusive club. That is another thing that drives up the price. They aren't just expensive, they are rare and hard to get. That makes people want it just that much more.



The funny bit though is that you can hear some demos of "woody" 59 LP tone, and so there is some sort of benchmark or reference point. If your LP doesn't have this "brittle"-ish treble and a bit of hollowed out sound to it, then it's sort of failed that benchmark. And in demos of extreme PAFy pickups like Throbaks, you can hear them chasing after this particular quality, and all the guys interested in that -- even if I can't describe it well in words -- know what it is.

With blackmachines, I don't think anyone has an idea of what blackmachine tone is. No one hears a demo of some skervesen nad thinks, eh, it's not quite there. Not quite that tonal quality a blackmachine has, etc. Instead, it's a holy grail based solely on the reputation its been given by a very small set of guitar players that, for the most part, had less than admirable intentions. For every blackmachine that's praised and loved, like Nolly's B2, there's another that's been flipped 5+ times for increasingly higher prices.


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## Sermo Lupi (Mar 28, 2018)

possumkiller said:


> I think it is the 59 Les Paul of the extreme metal world. So many people blew all of the "mojo super secret black magic" BS out of proportion that it got out of control. I think everybody knows by now that there is nothing in a 59 LP that makes it any more special than a 58 or a 60. I think most people have figured out the same thing with Blackmachine by now.



I'm inclined to agree, but I think you're being a little judgmental about this. First of all, we all subscribe to our own 'theory of tone' that we've constructed over the years with limited empirical evidence. It's easy to pick on the grey-haired '59 Les Paul fans, but tomorrow you'll tell me that fretboard wood contributes to 10% of a guitar's sound. We all have our own brand of crazy when it comes to this stuff, yet we think others should be drinking our Kool-Aid. Go figure. 

The second problem is that dozens of the world's best players have believed in guitar tone 'myths' that most others would dismiss. Do some reading on Eric Johnson or Joe Bonamassa if you want two of the more notable examples. The fact that people more experienced, respected and better-qualified than you or I believe in these myths is what helps to perpetuate them in the first place; more recently, people have put their faith in guys that are skilled in recording and production because they'd arguably be the best-equipped to accurately measure the minute tonal differences between the hundreds of guitars they've played. And thus another reason why Blackmachine blew up so quickly: you had all these dudes like Nolly and Bulb giving glowing endorsements for years. 'Glowing' might actually be underselling it...they were pulling out all the superlatives for Blackmachine, saying the guitars were the best in the world, had unparalleled or totally unique tone, etc. etc. People thought that, if they held those opinions, there must be something to it. 

So, while I never put much stock in these appraisals, you can see why there's a debate about tone at the very least. Most people are going to agree with those guys vs. some random jackoff on the Internet like myself.


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## possumkiller (Mar 28, 2018)

Sermo Lupi said:


> And thus another reason why Blackmachine blew up so quickly: you had all these dudes like Nolly and Bulb giving glowing endorsements for years. 'Glowing' might actually be underselling it...they were pulling out all the superlatives for Blackmachine, saying the guitars were the best in the world, had unparalleled or totally unique tone, etc. etc. People thought that, if they held those opinions, there must be something to it.
> 
> So, while I never put much stock in these appraisals, you can see why there's a debate about tone at the very least. Most people are going to agree with those guys vs. some random jackoff on the Internet like myself.



I remember the same dudes giving glowing reviews of S7G, Vik and BRJ as well...

My point with the 59 LP is that you can get 59 LPs that sound like ass and you can get 58, 60, 52-57s or copies that have that "59 LP" tone. It has nothing to do with "59" and everything to do with the right materials coming together in one guitar. You can go and find "magic" guitars of any sort while the next one of the exact same model is a turd. Most of these 59 LP guys are chasing after some Zeppelin tones when Jimmy Page used a Telecaster and a Danelectro most of the time in the studio. 

I know that people like Eric Johnson know little tweaks like sanding the paint off the contact surface of the tremolo block. I don't really call that mojo though I call it physics. I replaced a TonePros TOM set with a Faber set and the difference was night and day. It isn't mojo it's because the TonePros and most other TOMs are made of pot metal while the Faber is machined steel.


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## Sermo Lupi (Mar 28, 2018)

narad said:


> With blackmachines, I don't think anyone has an idea of what blackmachine tone is. No one hears a demo of some skervesen nad thinks, eh, it's not quite there. Not quite that tonal quality a blackmachine has, etc. Instead, it's a holy grail based solely on the reputation its been given by a very small set of guitar players that, for the most part, had less than admirable intentions. For every blackmachine that's praised and loved, like Nolly's B2, there's another that's been flipped 5+ times for increasingly higher prices.



Some have certainly ventured explanations, but obviously guitars with different woods and different pickups are going to sound different overall. Ironically, the most common descriptors for those guitars seem to be the least specific: the tone is always 'tight', 'balanced' and 'thick' or 'clear'. Yet some of this might be chalked up to the problems inherent to translating tone to text. As a side note, I have a pet peeve for the food-related descriptors many reviewers use. 

For reference, one of the lengthier descriptions I've seen of a Blackmachine's tone comes from Bulb's NGD for his Koa B2: 



> I plugged it into the axefx and it sounds massive and the attack on this guitar is just unparalleled to be honest. It is insanely djenty and has this clarity that is just perfect as it never gets too bright and it allows the chords to ring out so clearly and have even note definition across the board. The sustain on this thing is also absolutely insane especially with how low the action is (set up and intonation was perfect despite spending 6000+ miles on airplanes). At any rate here is a picture showing just how thin this guitar is, which to me is amazing considering how rich and full it is tonally



Bulb revised his first impressions slightly in this Top Secret Audio video from a couple years ago (spoiler: it does not contain any top secrets!). He says more or less the same thing, however: 'It's incredibly balanced. There's nothing really offensive about any aspect of its sound. And it has the Bareknucle aftermaths it in, which I normally think are a little bit on the harsh side, but in this guitar they are very even.' 

In general, I doubt there's any 'signature tone' to those guitars. They share some common features like the unusually thin bodies and some degree of chambering (which I believe is rumoured), but even Pin says his two B2s sound completely different. So once Doug moved beyond the ebony B2s into other exotic woods, I think the 'Blackmachine sound' that may have had its roots in the wood combo of the original guitars just morphed into a selling point for later owners of completely different instruments. 

Notably, that sort of BS isn't unique to Blackmachine, though. Any fan of Spinal Tap could tell you that!


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## Sermo Lupi (Mar 28, 2018)

possumkiller said:


> I remember the same dudes giving glowing reviews of S7G, Vik and BRJ as well...



Yep. So it goes. Although I'd maybe distinguish between players like Bulb and Nolly and 'collectors' that I think were more guilty of hyping the flavour of the month. They were given the same benefit of the doubt by forum-goers, though, because they had these high-end guitar collections to compare to, thus when it came to talking quality 'they would know'. There's truth to that, of course, but it also assumes they're offering praise with no ulterior motives. Several guys were banned from here for the ol' pump and dump, so I guess there's your answer. 



possumkiller said:


> My point with the 59 LP is that you can get 59 LPs that sound like ass and you can get 58, 60, 52-57s or copies that have that "59 LP" tone. It has nothing to do with "59" and everything to do with the right materials coming together in one guitar.
> 
> I know that people like Eric Johnson know little tweaks like sanding the paint off the contact surface of the tremolo block. I don't really call that mojo though I call it physics.



With Eric Johnson I was thinking more along the lines of which brand of batteries you put in your pedals, but your example doesn't sound much less ridiculous to me. See, we all have our limits when it comes to this stuff  

As for the LPs: you're comparing vintage, production-built instruments (from an age when QA may have been more spotty), to a custom luthier whose claim to fame is pretty much the quality of the woods he selects and the combinations of timbers he comes up with for his guitars to let them 'speak'. In other words, if you find your Les Paul theory to be truthful, a die-hard Blackmachine fan would just say that every instrument Doug makes has 'the right materials coming together in one guitar' by nature of his working process and skillset. They'd think you're proving their point, not refuting it. 

I mean, I get where you're coming from, I just don't think that particular analogy is going to get you anywhere. But anyway, when it comes to this tone stuff...


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Mar 28, 2018)

I think the ss.org community just needed their own Dumble/Klon/butterscotch tele to hype beyond reason, and one hardtail RG copy from someone’s garage out of hundreds just happened to take off.


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## narad (Mar 28, 2018)

Now that blackmachine hype is dying, we've got Fortin!


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## KnightBrolaire (Mar 28, 2018)

narad said:


> Now that blackmachine hype is dying, we've got Fortin!


Nothing says hype like paying hundreds of dollars for a single knob boost


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## InCasinoOut (Mar 29, 2018)

Randy said:


> 8 or 9 years ago, if memory serves. It was before I was a moderator but after Alex bought the site, so mod team was s7eve, Ddorian and some of the other guys in between I'm forgetting.


Jesus fuck. I remember it all... and in that time span I've moved to and spent an entire third of my lifetime in a state I now call home. woah


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## Fred the Shred (Mar 29, 2018)

As a former owner of a B7 and having played a fuckton of them, they are actually quite nice. They feel great, and there's this "something" regarding their tone that's always kind of oriented towards an almost "Les Paulish" unplugged tone that translates very well to the plugged in tone, kind of like an LP with snappier attack and improved note separation. I've always quite liked them, but I do think the whole thing was utterly blown out of proportion due to rarity and seminal artists in a niche picking them up, and it's most certainly not a tonal revolution by any stretch of the imagination.

The prices they are commanding are really due to rarity, and couple that with a lot of unicorn horn and fairy dust from people who are busier either drawing conclusions from third party opinions or searching for metaphysical virtues as opposed to normal ones and things do enter a really surreal territory at times. It doesn't matter, as most people willing to buy that will bask in the satisfaction of having the real deal, and since it isn't my money, more power to them!


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## narad (Mar 29, 2018)

Fred the Shred said:


> As a former owner of a B7 and having played a fuckton of them, they are actually quite nice. They feel great, and there's this "something" regarding their tone that's always kind of oriented towards an almost "Les Paulish" unplugged tone that translates very well to the plugged in tone, kind of like an LP with snappier attack and improved note separation. I've always quite liked them, but I do think the whole thing was utterly blown out of proportion due to rarity and seminal artists in a niche picking them up, and it's most certainly not a tonal revolution by any stretch of the imagination.
> 
> The prices they are commanding are really due to rarity, and couple that with a lot of unicorn horn and fairy dust from people who are busier either drawing conclusions from third party opinions or searching for metaphysical virtues as opposed to normal ones and things do enter a really surreal territory at times. It doesn't matter, as most people willing to buy that will bask in the satisfaction of having the real deal, and since it isn't my money, more power to them!



I would have loved to have yours. If the prices on that one drop back into this stratosphere I might consider it.


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## Albake21 (Mar 29, 2018)

Does anyone know the reason why Doug stopped making them? I mean shit the demand is obviously there and he could be racking in some serious cash...


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## diagrammatiks (Mar 29, 2018)

Albake21 said:


> Does anyone know the reason why Doug stopped making them? I mean shit the demand is obviously there and he could be racking in some serious cash...



demand goes down if he actually makes more. 

the market is a bitch like that ya know??


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## Albake21 (Mar 29, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> demand goes down if he actually makes more.
> 
> the market is a bitch like that ya know??


I get that, but the demand right now can't even get one built, they have to find one used for an absurd price. This doesn't effect Doug in the slightest besides give him a chance to make more to sell. The demand going down will only change the price of used, not the price of new (which only concerns Doug).


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## diagrammatiks (Mar 29, 2018)

Albake21 said:


> I get that, but the demand right now can't even get one built, they have to find one used for an absurd price. This doesn't effect Doug in the slightest besides give him a chance to make more to sell. The demand going down will only change the price of used, not the price of new (which only concerns Doug).



but people only want one because there's no supply and the used prices are so high which means people want them more but if you build more then there's lots of new stock and the used prices go down and no one wants one anymore.


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## Fred the Shred (Mar 29, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> but people only want one because there's no supply and the used prices are so high which means people want them more but if you build more then there's lots of new stock and the used prices go down and no one wants one anymore.



While not that radical, this is true, though - it's also a given that a lot of the same crowd that was finding all kinds of paranormal activity occurring from whenever a BM was involved will also refer to the new ones as something without - *gasps* - mojo.



narad said:


> I would have loved to have yours. If the prices on that one drop back into this stratosphere I might consider it.



It currently belongs to a student of mine, who isn't too interested in selling it, so it could be a good while till that happens.


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## narad (Mar 29, 2018)

Fred the Shred said:


> It currently belongs to a student of mine, who isn't too interested in selling it, so it could be a good while till that happens.



Oh, did you sell it to your student? Maybe I'm getting it mixed up with a twin -- I saw another natural quilt B7 on Reverb I think like 3-4 months ago but the price was $20k+, and it's that guy from like north carolina that sells all the blackmachines.


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## ikarus (Mar 29, 2018)

narad said:


> I saw another natural quilt B7 on Reverb I think like 3-4 months ago but the price was $20k+, and it's that guy from like north carolina that sells all the blackmachines.



Speaking of that, does anybody know anything about this guy? Who is he and where does he gets all those BMs from?


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## Lorcan Ward (Mar 29, 2018)

Albake21 said:


> Does anyone know the reason why Doug stopped making them? I mean shit the demand is obviously there and he could be racking in some serious cash...



He hasn't stopped, just slowed down considerably in the last few years, he makes about 2-4 a year, mostly for friends and the odd one for someone remaining on the waiting list or willing to offer the cash. He never really set out to make guitars commercially, he wanted to make guitars for his mates in the UK to replace their prize Les Pauls or Jems, a guitar that dispelled countless guitar myths and most importantly the best guitar he could make for himself. He certainly achieved all of them.

All the clones, copies etc put him off a lot too. He had plans to do a run of 10 guitars and then start on a production series but that all went out the window. I wish he would have gone the route of Strandberg with multiple production lines.


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## narad (Mar 29, 2018)

Lorcan Ward said:


> All the clones, copies etc put him off a lot too. He had plans to do a run of 10 guitars and then start on a production series but that all went out the window.



As if I needed another reason to dislike Skervesen and Ormsby...


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## Lorcan Ward (Mar 29, 2018)

He abandoned that idea long before the Hypemachines but the Raptor played a part. It was mostly Siggery and Mercer. There was demand and luthiers saw an opportunity so you can't blame them to be honest.


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## narad (Mar 29, 2018)

Lorcan Ward said:


> He abandoned that idea long before the Hypemachines but the Raptor played a part. It was mostly Siggery and Mercer. There was demand and luthiers saw an opportunity so you can't blame them to be honest.



But I do blame them. Being opportunistic has its pros and its cons. Pros being in a capitalist society you'll probably be financially rewarded for it, Cons here being cashing in on someone else's ingenuity.


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## jephjacques (Mar 29, 2018)

ikarus said:


> Speaking of that, does anybody know anything about this guy? Who is he and where does he gets all those BMs from?



If you mean Red Dragon Guitars, AFAIK he's just a boutique ebay/reverb dealer. I've bought a couple things from him in the past.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Mar 29, 2018)

I remember Mike Sherman talking about how he played one of the 8 strings and it sounded thin and weak. Say what you will about Mike, but the dude sure knew his guitars.


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Mar 29, 2018)

Lorcan Ward said:


> he wanted to make guitars for his mates in the UK to replace their prize Les Pauls or Jems, a guitar that dispelled countless guitar myths and most importantly the best guitar he could make for himself. He certainly achieved all of them.



Why do you hate them so much!


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## cip 123 (Mar 29, 2018)

narad said:


> Cons here being cashing in on someone else's ingenuity.



strats, les pauls, teles, the entire guitar industry


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## narad (Mar 29, 2018)

cip 123 said:


> strats, les pauls, teles, the entire guitar industry



The guy who invented strats, les pauls, teles, isn't a regular still-breathing guy who was at one point trying to sell guitars. I'd have far fewer qualms about someone copying blackmachine guitars in the year 2088.


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## KnightBrolaire (Mar 29, 2018)

jephjacques said:


> If you mean Red Dragon Guitars, AFAIK he's just a boutique ebay/reverb dealer. I've bought a couple things from him in the past.


red dragon is an actual brick and mortar store, but yeah they specialize in boutique guitars like GNG, etc.


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## Fred the Shred (Mar 29, 2018)

narad said:


> Oh, did you sell it to your student? Maybe I'm getting it mixed up with a twin -- I saw another natural quilt B7 on Reverb I think like 3-4 months ago but the price was $20k+, and it's that guy from like north carolina that sells all the blackmachines.



I sold it to Francesco (that's why you see him playing it on my Frozen Soul video), and it just ended up with my student after a while. I have no knowledge of other quilts like mine, with the white ebony board - I hope nothing fishy is going on!


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## USMarine75 (Mar 29, 2018)

Fred the Shred said:


> I sold it to Francesco (that's why you see him playing it on my Frozen Soul video), and it just ended up with my student after a while. I have no knowledge of other quilts like mine, with the white ebony board - I hope nothing fishy is going on!



Been enjoying his playing for years around the interwebs! Francesco is awesome.

So are we hating BM ripoffs now? On a site that regularly praises lawsuit companies like ESP? Oh lawdy I am in a love/hate relationship with you, SSO.


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## cip 123 (Mar 29, 2018)

narad said:


> The guy who invented strats, les pauls, teles, isn't a regular still-breathing guy who was at one point trying to sell guitars. I'd have far fewer qualms about someone copying blackmachine guitars in the year 2088.



They still did it when those guys were around. 

It happens in literally every industry, everyone copies everyone. It's business, granted Mercer and Siggery turned out be terrible are actually running a business.

Loads of luthiers have done it with Strandberg but Ola ran his business well and now has multiple lines.


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 29, 2018)

cip 123 said:


> They still did it when those guys were around.
> 
> It happens in literally every industry, everyone copies everyone. It's business, granted Mercer and Siggery turned out be terrible are actually running a business.
> 
> Loads of luthiers have done it with Strandberg but Ola ran his business well and now has multiple lines.



There was not a singular "inventor" of the Les Paul, it was basically Ted McCarty's design that was approved by Les himself and owned wholly by Gibson as a company. By the time copies started showing up in large quantities all three entities were not the same or related when the guitar was originally conceived. 

Same with Leo Fender and his Strats and Teles. He sold the rights in the 60's to CBS and left the company soon after to found Music Man. 

As for Strandberg, he wanted folks to make thier own versions of his guitars. When he started he set up a creative commons license for that reason. Until recently he was selling the hardware to other builders as well. 

None of those are close to the situation with Blackmachine where a single builder designed and created what would become a very sought after instrument and with a few years copies were all over.


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## cip 123 (Mar 29, 2018)

True I totally forgot about Ola's creative commons licence. 

My overall point was that I wouldn't blame people for basically living in the world we live in. Unless you're specifically doing you're own designs, then someone coming up offering you money for a copy or guitar similar to a design, you can't blame them for taking it. Granted in the case of Mercer and Siggery you could not run a sketchy business that ultimately falls apart.


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 29, 2018)

cip 123 said:


> True I totally forgot about Ola's creative commons licence.
> 
> My overall point was that I wouldn't blame people for basically living in the world we live in. Unless you're specifically doing you're own designs, then someone coming up offering you money for a copy or guitar similar to a design, you can't blame them for taking it. Granted in the case of Mercer and Siggery you could not run a sketchy business that ultimately falls apart.



I think a lot of the blame lies with Doug. He really should of tried to copyright his overall design in some way.


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## narad (Mar 29, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I think a lot of the blame lies with Doug. He really should of tried to copyright his overall design in some way.



This is facetious, right?


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## Sermo Lupi (Mar 29, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I think a lot of the blame lies with Doug. He really should of tried to copyright his overall design in some way.





narad said:


> This is facetious, right?



Yeah...I'm not sure Doug could have pursued any of the relevant legal protections given the nature of his guitars. Rick Toone is one of the few luthiers I know who went ahead and patented all of his designs, but he was also making fairly elaborate hardware with schematics that are easier to defend in court should the issue ever arise. Let's forget for a second that patents can cost an arm and a leg, and focus instead on the fact that being granted a patent does not guarantee a court victory if someone ever challenges you on it. Chances are you just lose a lot of money as a small-time luthier trying to defend inventions that were probably derivative to start with. And obviously a lot more could be said about the differences between copyrights/trademarks/patents, each of which provide different protections and are acquired through different means. You don't really apply for some forms of copyright, for starters.

Anyway, that ship has sailed either way. Mostly I just think it's sad that he was disheartened by all of it...I don't think any single luthier was targeted in the way that Doug was. Even Vik saw only a few copies of his stuff despite a similar level of popularity for a short while; admittedly, the Blackmachine design is much more simple for most luthiers to copy.

Still, am I alone in thinking Doug could still make a push into the market if he wanted to? There's still a demand for the authentic article. The problem right now is that the only realistically procurable Blackmachine is the B6, and that design is quite bland. If Doug would let Feline build B2s, B7s, etc., there would be people buying those things left right and centre. And if Doug still wanted to keep building guitars himself, he could do that, too: as others have said, Ola Strandberg didn't close up shop once he'd licensed his designs. There's always a select few who want full customisability from a brand's highest level of service, not to mention the option to support the original creator.


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## sakeido (Mar 29, 2018)

Like I said, Doug was weird and (imo) total shit at business. I'm sure he's still done fine for himself, altho he could have done much better, but he doesn't seem like the kind of guy to launch a big business. Plus, at this stage, I think Ormsby is getting that market cornered really well because unlike most small luthiers, he has killer business sense and has done an awesome job scaling up


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 29, 2018)

Sorry, I don't know exactly how registering a design in the UK works. My cursory search pointed to it being relatively cheap and straightforward and it might apply to something like the design of a guitar. 

https://www.gov.uk/register-a-design


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## narad (Mar 29, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Sorry, I don't know exactly how registering a design in the UK works. My cursory search pointed to it being relatively cheap and straightforward and it might apply to something like the design of a guitar.
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/register-a-design



Ah, I just mean, you go and let's assume it's all cheap and easy and Doug gets it. Then he's getting copied by guys in the US, Australia, Poland, ... I just don't think there's anything he could done from a legal angle to protect against people pushing Blackmachine-style guitars while allowing him to build them at his own pace.


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## Sermo Lupi (Mar 29, 2018)

sakeido said:


> Like I said, Doug was weird and (imo) total shit at business. I'm sure he's still done fine for himself, altho he could have done much better, but he doesn't seem like the kind of guy to launch a big business. Plus, at this stage, I think Ormsby is getting that market cornered really well because unlike most small luthiers, he has killer business sense and has done an awesome job scaling up



Ha! Most would argue the opposite. Doug has never had to advertise his guitars or prostrate himself before the Internet masses like so many other luthiers. He has customers lining up around the block not just signing up on waitlists, but eager to buy whatever next becomes available, whether it's to their specs or not, and they're willing to pay so much money for the guitars that he really only needs to build a handful a year anyway. So whether by accident or design, that sounds like a good business strategy to me. 

I don't know much about Ormsby, but I don't think he's completely skirted controversy on this forum as his company has expanded. I don't know I'd hold his company up as a success to Blackmachine's failure.


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 29, 2018)

narad said:


> Ah, I just mean, you go and let's assume it's all cheap and easy and Doug gets it. Then he's getting copied by guys in the US, Australia, Poland, ... I just don't think there's anything he could done from a legal angle to protect against people pushing Blackmachine-style guitars while allowing him to build them at his own pace.



You're never going to stop all the copies, that's impossible.

But look at two of the earliest copycats: Mercer and Siggery. Both based out of the UK. They helped set the precedent of making copies, and cheap ones at that. Don't think for a second that once other parties saw guys undercutting Doug in his own backyard with impunity that they didn't realize then that they could do as they please.

From everything I've read it seems the person who stopped Blackmachine from getting bigger was Doug. I'm sure seeing so many people making money off of his work was demoralizing, but he had the choice to keep going or take his ball and go home. He went home.


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## ElRay (Mar 29, 2018)

Sermo Lupi said:


> ... And obviously a lot more could be said about the differences between copyrights/trademarks/patents, each of which provide different protections and are acquired through different means. ...


This is bigger than many would think. Novak had a patent on a flawed method of laying out multi-scaled fretboards and a trademark on the name “fanned frets”. He allowed his business manager to extort licensing fees from anybody making multi-scaled guitars. That would have gone down in a ball of flames if anybody had decided to fight it in court. There are other builders (one of which has whined/threatened to threaten me for calling them out over this) that have design patents (ornamentation—like an old style coke bottle), because there’s too much prior art to get a utility patent, but pimp the design patent based on its function, benefits, etc. I.e. its utility. Another situation that would not hold up beyond the threat to a naive builder.


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## Sermo Lupi (Mar 29, 2018)

ElRay said:


> There are other builders (one of which has whined/threatened to threaten me for calling them out over this)...



I see you've encountered SSO's Lord and Saviour, Alex Gregory...


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## jephjacques (Mar 29, 2018)

excuse me it is MAESTRO Alex Gregory


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## Seabeast2000 (Mar 29, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> You're never going to stop all the copies, that's impossible.


Sorry, couldn't help it...


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## Semi-pro (Mar 30, 2018)

So, any news about the og post?


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Mar 30, 2018)

I heard from a friend's friend cousin's sister's boss on an internet forum post that was shared from another forum that was taken from a Facebook post that Blackmachines are made of magical wood from a realm only Doug has access to!

I hear he is a warlock and the reason he no longer builds is because he crossed over to his pocket dimension to rule over it. 

I heard his body woods are from the Tree of Life itself.

The hardware he uses is actually from the past and was crafted with metals from the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs. 

His pickups aren't just production pickups, they are made in the belly of Mount Fuji and infused with the power of the Earth. 

I heard the reason he made the headstock that way was so he could spear fish if he ever got stranded on a deserted planet again.

I heard once that he plucked a string and it created a fault in the Earth. 

I heard he once used wood from the cross he was crucified on. AKA Doug is Jesus. 

This guy on the internet told me that his guitars can go for crazy stupdi prices. Like over 10K. 


MY POINT:

I wonder if we could hype some random brand and get it to those stupid amounts. It seems like these days our society runs on trends and sets prices on objects because of that trend. Take for example Super Mario Cereal. When it came out in stores last year, it was the price of normal cereal. It got limited so it started going online for like 20 bucks a pop. (I have friends who took advantage of this). Look at cryptocurrency. Bitcoins didn't have much of a value until people assigned that value. Last example. Look at Player Unknown Battlegrounds. There are items on that marketplace up to $1500 for cosmetic items. 

If you're dumb enough to drop 20k on a Blackmachine and truly able to afford to throw away money like that, power to you. I've never personally tried one and I won't. Won't. Not can't. I do regret not getting one when they were reasonable though. I'd be rolling in that stupid rich people money. 

You want to get a cool custom? Try supporting smaller Luthiers like Tom Drinkwater or Kevin Fast. They won't rip you off.

Grey OUT!


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## prlgmnr (Mar 30, 2018)

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Take for example Super Mario Cereal. When it came out in stores last year, it was the price of normal cereal. It got limited so it started going online for like 20 bucks a pop. (I have friends who took advantage of this). Look at cryptocurrency. Bitcoins didn't have much of a value until people assigned that value. Last example. Look at Player Unknown Battlegrounds. There are items on that marketplace up to $1500 for cosmetic items.


"look at this, look at that"

fuck, I think I've got whiplash now


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Mar 30, 2018)

prlgmnr said:


> "look at this, look at that"
> 
> fuck, I think I've got whiplash now



Hey whiplash isn't that bad  Maybe I should add a disclaimer that I can't be liable.


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## Seabeast2000 (Mar 30, 2018)

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> MY POINT:
> 
> I wonder if we could hype some random brand and get it to those stupid amounts.
> Grey OUT!



Absolutely. What did you have in mind?


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## narad (Mar 30, 2018)

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> MY POINT:
> 
> I wonder if we could hype some random brand and get it to those stupid amounts. It seems like these days our society runs on trends and sets prices on objects because of that trend. Take for example Super Mario Cereal. When it came out in stores last year, it was the price of normal cereal. It got limited so it started going online for like 20 bucks a pop. (I have friends who took advantage of this). Look at cryptocurrency. Bitcoins didn't have much of a value until people assigned that value. Last example. Look at Player Unknown Battlegrounds. There are items on that marketplace up to $1500 for cosmetic items.



We? No. SSO is the place where you sell the hyped up goods. The tail doesn't wag the dog. 

But yes, obviously it is possible -- the obvious example of this... for this thread... would be...blackmachine? When blackmachines went from 10 -> 15k -> 20k is from when a small group of people with control over the limited supply decided to intentionally hype, often obscuring the price guitars were actually moving at by listing at high prices and taking offers. Many people sold blackmachines "at $15k" long before any blackmachine sold for $15k, and "at $20k" long before any ever sold for $20k.

And guys could learn a lesson from this strategy before thinking a Fortin 33s value is $600+


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## R34CH (Mar 30, 2018)

Maybe I've been spending too much time in the Daemoness thread but whenever I see blackmachine prices all I can think is...what kind of Daemoness could I spec out for 10K? 20? Yikes.


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## KnightBrolaire (Mar 30, 2018)

R34CH said:


> Maybe I've been spending too much time in the Daemoness thread but whenever I see blackmachine prices all I can think is...what kind of Daemoness could I spec out for 10K? 20? Yikes.


the correct answer is multiple daemoness. why limit yourself to one insane design lol


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## Lorcan Ward (Mar 30, 2018)

^Doug had an idea of a Daemoness/Blackmachine collaboration build years ago but it never happened, that would have been insane. 



MaxOfMetal said:


> But look at two of the earliest copycats: Mercer and Siggery. Both based out of the UK. They helped set the precedent of making copies, and cheap ones at that. Don't think for a second that once other parties saw guys undercutting Doug in his own backyard with impunity that they didn't realize then that they could do as they please.



Thats exactly what happened. There was talk about copyright but Invictus stepped up then making Blackmachine esque guitars, he claimed it was his design and everyone else was copying him, that was a red flag right there at the beginning and explains a lot, even targeting Pin and other BM players to fully cash in the BM popularity. Then the Skervesen TerrorMachine which became the Raptor, they made 2 Blackmachine copies but weren't overly happy with it so made a few tweaks and the Raptor was born. They'd have been crazy not to with the amount of orders and attention they were getting. Not sure who was next, there's lots of BM clones or inspired guitars like Blackwater, Sabre and countless other guys I've forgot the name of. The Hypemachine was started here as a BM clone run and now thats a production guitar available worldwide. Neko guitars followed then making a production BM.

The demand was there and Doug just didn't take advantage of it. Funny how most of these companies failed and closed up shop or have dropped off the face of the planet. A lot of these guys lost a lot more money then they earned from making BM clones. Unfortunately a lot of us got burned by these luthiers. 

I had a build spot for a BM but it was then cancelled, then the price doubled when I got a new spot, then offered a build but then it was auctioned, then I spec'd out a build but that was also sold to someone else. I gave up a few years ago since it was never going to happen and I really couldn't justify that kind of money when there are so many amazing builders around nowadays.


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## narad (Mar 30, 2018)

^^ Ha, should be stickied. The history of BM and the clone wars.


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## downburst82 (Mar 30, 2018)

Its interesting to note that while there have been a steady stream of Blackmachines "moving" on Reverb for $10,000+ They are never actually "Sold" the auctions are just "ended". You see B6's regularly "sold" in the $3000-$4000 range but for the fancy stuff (b2, b7,ff8) only 1 has officially "sold" on reverb in the past few years (B7 for $12,000)

Its a shady tactic for a number of reasons but bottom line is we still dont really know what people are actually paying for these...


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Mar 30, 2018)

Though that comment about the Reverb listings is true, we _do_ actually know how much people are paying:



Spoiler



*Too* much_._


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## ElRay (Mar 30, 2018)

Sermo Lupi said:


> I see you've encountered SSO's Lord and Saviour, Alex Gregory...


Actually, it somebody that was posting here for a while during the timeframe of building for one of the SS.o darling bands. Very, ultra-libertarian, but was quick to turn to government protection when it benefited them.


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## ElRay (Mar 30, 2018)

narad said:


> ^^ Ha, should be stickied. The history of BM and the clone wars.


Yes. The original DNA of the build came from the elusive builder Jango Rich.


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## jbcrazy (Mar 31, 2018)

narad said:


> The guy who invented strats, les pauls, teles, isn't a regular still-breathing guy who was at one point trying to sell guitars. I'd have far fewer qualms about someone copying blackmachine guitars in the year 2088.





Lorcan Ward said:


> ^Doug had an idea of a Daemoness/Blackmachine collaboration build years ago but it never happened, that would have been insane.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A Daemachine? That would've been awesome.

An epic tale about the BM experience you have Locran. 

I did own a BM awhile back. It was a really cool guitar. I flipped that for quite a profit and I was hoping one day Doug would open it up a bit, so we can have a more 'sanely' priced BM with like nice looking tops and what not. Never happened.

I am actually happy Skervesen and Orsmby are making guitars like that, so players can get that vibe without feeling left out or just BROKE. I really dug my Skervesen when I had it. Just as much as the BM to be honest.

There are PRS clones... that guy is still alive and kicking as well. I got no problem with that either.

A PRS is a strat/Les paul love child. 

A Blackmachine is a Parker Fly/RG baby that's oil finished and pointier.


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## Crash Dandicoot (Apr 1, 2018)

This has been a very informative read so far.

Guesses for the next (other than Fortin) mega-hyped brand to pervade SSO?


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## Ziricote (Apr 1, 2018)

jephjacques said:


> If you mean Red Dragon Guitars, AFAIK he's just a boutique ebay/reverb dealer. I've bought a couple things from him in the past.



He was not referring to the Red Dragon. There is some guy who has sold 4 Blackmachine on the Reverb. I was watching that B2 from the Red Dragon. It was very nice and way too much cost, but he was only selling it for this same guy. The Red Dragon never had his own Blackmachine for sale, only one time selling for someone else


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## Sermo Lupi (Apr 1, 2018)

Semi-pro said:


> So, any news about the og post?



I am appreciating the digressions, but seriously, did anyone follow up with AVH to try to retrieve the photos/article?


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## USMarine75 (Apr 1, 2018)

Keep in mind stores like Red Dragon are also selling locally via their brick and mortar store and maybe elsewhere like eBay.


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## narad (Apr 1, 2018)

Sermo Lupi said:


> I am appreciating the digressions, but seriously, did anyone follow up with AVH to try to retrieve the photos/article?



I didn't. I mean, under the assumption that if he took them down on the behalf of the owner, he's probably not eager to otherwise share them with intent to be posted to the internet?

Just realistically, somebody must have saved them. I almost feel that I may have saved them but I'm not very organized.


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## Sermo Lupi (Apr 1, 2018)

narad said:


> I didn't. I mean, under the assumption that if he took them down on the behalf of the owner, he's probably not eager to otherwise share them with intent to be posted to the internet?
> 
> Just realistically, somebody must have saved them. I almost feel that I may have saved them but I'm not very organized.



I suppose it depends. Hypothetically, let's say the owner asked Allen to take the photos down because he was afraid a critical review would hurt the value of the guitar. Allen agrees, a few years pass, and maybe the guitar changes owners in that time. In such a scenario (and on the understanding that Allen obviously wanted to share the photos in the first place), he might see the situation differently today. 

Again, that's a hypothetical. I don't know which FF8 this was...there's one on Reverb right now purporting to be listed by the original owner, but I think there's at least 2 or 3 of these things out there and I'm not sure which one Allen had come through his shop. I'm just saying you don't really know until you ask. 

I wouldn't feel right doing it myself; I feel bad enough for being as nosy as I've been. Still, I'd be interested in seeing Allen's write up. With or without photos, he usually has insights worth reading on their own.


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## Randy (Apr 1, 2018)

Sermo Lupi said:


> I am appreciating the digressions, but seriously, did anyone follow up with AVH to try to retrieve the photos/article?



Hey the guy asked for a Blackmachine teardown, and this thread has delivered just that.


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## MikeH (Apr 1, 2018)

jephjacques said:


> "Most iconic metal guitar of the last decade?" Maybe on internet forums for guitar nerds. Normal metal dorks still jerk it to matte black ESP explorers.


Hell, I've reverted to that since the hype took over.


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Apr 2, 2018)

Crash Dandicoot said:


> Guesses for the next (other than Fortin) mega-hyped brand to pervade SSO?



Oh, boy. Well...People seem to be over Misha and Nolly’s preferred tactic of killing small businesses by soliciting celebrity-discounted guitars, hyping them, and then reselling them for profit before the fad blows over and the “luthier” goes under with the mass of unfulfilled order overhead outweighing deposit amounts due to so many being placed at the same time, by the same dozen people who get burnt for a few grand this way every year.

Whether or not something “dj0nts” seems to no longer be a fashion-forward indicator of quality...

Short of Pondman finally putting a superstrat into production, I don’t see any one poster setting the trends any more.

I know the usual gang of gearflipping NGD swine are on standby to place their Abasi builds on that mantle (eg. “My Aristides with Fluences is flawless and all, but the Abasi with Fluences just feels more _organic_, if that makes any sense”), but I fear the Abasis are going to be priced out of casual reach and in too limited quantities (with massively downplayed delays) to mean to SSO what the five very vocal owners on the site would prefer they do in the month between the NGD and FS threads.

My guess is that either Alex will get more serious about convincing sponsors he can sell hype, or that the next influx of posters asking what they should request for graduation presents will elevate some other arbitrary superstrat knockoff in a way only myth can justify (eg. “Doug blindfolds himself and _smells _for the most resonant wood before finishing them in a thin layer of Brylcreem to ensure the notes can breathe”).


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## narad (Apr 2, 2018)

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> Oh, boy. Well...People seem to be over Misha and Nolly’s preferred tactic of killing small businesses by soliciting celebrity-discounted guitars, hyping them, and then reselling them for profit before the fad blows over and the “luthier” goes under with the mass of unfulfilled order overhead outweighing deposit amounts due to so many being placed at the same time, by the same dozen people who get burnt for a few grand this way every year.
> 
> Whether or not something “dj0nts” seems to no longer be a fashion-forward indicator of quality...
> 
> ...



Another insightful and on-point critique!




… April Fools'!


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Apr 2, 2018)




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## Avedas (Apr 2, 2018)

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> posters asking what they should request for graduation presents


I thought graduation presents could only be Gibson LPs or MIM teles.


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## Veldar (Apr 6, 2018)

If i start a pedal company can SSO hype it up for me please? @bulb looking at you


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## Lorcan Ward (Apr 6, 2018)

jbcrazy said:


> A Daemachine? That would've been awesome..



It could already exist. Who knows if it ever happened!? There were some other cool collabs with UK builders that never took off. 



jbcrazy said:


> An epic tale about the BM experience you have Locran.
> 
> I am actually happy Skervesen and Orsmby are making guitars like that, so players can get that vibe without feeling left out or just BROKE. I really dug my Skervesen when I had it. Just as much as the BM to be honest.



It was far too much work and waiting to get nothing in the end. I've got some killer customs anyway that are heavily based on BM and Doug's ideas but with some changes that I preferred. One that uses the same stash of wood that Doug uses so its about as close as you can get! 

Those guys and many others were able to fill the demand for BM style builds but in the end it just drove the price of second hand ones way up. I'd bet that even now if a production line started they'd sell no problem.


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## bulb (Apr 6, 2018)

Veldar said:


> If i start a pedal company can SSO hype it up for me please? @bulb looking at you



I think some people on SSO sometime think that SSO has more of an impact on MI than it actually does. I think it's a result of the fact that SSO certainly can and has had an impact when it comes to small scale luthiers and builders who are capable of making 5-20 guitars a year max (worst case being the whole BRJ debacle), but the influence doesn't really scale much beyond that from what I have seen.

If you are starting a pedal company, you will likely need to move enough volume to be profitable to where it won't actually matter what SSO thinks of it. And that's good because SSO generally has a very narrow scope in the grand scheme of things. Ultimately just chase something you are passionate about, and don't really worry about SSO haha!

tl;dr: Just have fun with it!


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## Hollowway (Apr 7, 2018)

There’s always a hype about something going on here. Currently it seems that it’s the Fluences. Those came out of nowhere, and now everyone and their sister is saying they “can hear the note separation,” just like they said about Laces, low output BKPs, high output BKPs, Blackouts, EMGs, and so on.


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## cip 123 (Apr 7, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> There’s always a hype about something going on here. Currently it seems that it’s the Fluences. Those came out of nowhere, and now everyone and their sister is saying they “can hear the note separation,” just like they said about Laces, low output BKPs, high output BKPs, Blackouts, EMGs, and so on.



I feel like there was more of a slow burn on Fluences until they really pushed in the last year or so.

Lace came out of nowhere (more imo) and every ERG luthier used them due to their sizes I feel.

Fishman stole artist, after artist, after artist from the big name brands for a couple years. By the time it gets to the public you already know somethings up. Coupled with the fact it's new technology that people will want to try out. 


...also the note separation bruh


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Apr 7, 2018)

How do you guys feel about Blackmachines that aren’t black?


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## BangandBreach (Apr 8, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> There’s always a hype about something going on here. Currently it seems that it’s the Fluences. Those came out of nowhere, and now everyone and their sister is saying they “can hear the note separation,” just like they said about Laces, low output BKPs, high output BKPs, Blackouts, EMGs, and so on.


Yeah I logged on one day and everyone here was rocking those fishman pups. It came out of nowhere.
And before that it was BKPs.


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## ElRay (Apr 9, 2018)

Hey, I've got a BM6, built from hand-selected, tap-toned toanwoods (harvested on an odd-numbered day when the full moon was at it's peak), with Fishman Fluences (built by BKP), with a light absorbing black nanotube finish, built in Pondman's shop, hand polished by Mrs. Pond, tuned to the most (theoretically) heavy tuning (using 432 Hz) discovered by Mr. Big Noodles, using Kalium strings, specifically chosen for optimal tensions using Ishan's STC Java app, once owned by Bulb, flipped by Methab, for sale.

Edit: Buyer pays shipping and PayPal fees.


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## Seabeast2000 (Apr 9, 2018)

ElRay said:


> Hey, I've got a BM6, built from hand-selected, tap-toned toanwoods (harvested on an odd-numbered day when the full moon was at it's peak), with Fishman Fluences (built by BKP), with a light absorbing black nanotube finish, built in Pondman's shop, hand polished by Mrs. Pond, tuned to the most (theoretically) heavy tuning (using 432 Hz) discovered by Mr. Big Noodles, using Kalium strings, specifically chosen for optimal tensions using Ishan's STC Java app, once owned by Bulb, flipped by Methab, for sale.
> 
> Edit: Buyer pays shipping and PayPal fees.



Craigslist response: Do you still have it? How much? Would you take 4 old golf clubs and a Crate combo plus pool cleaning services in trade? I really want this, can you drive to Tucson and bring an amp so I can try it out? How much? Can you hold it until I sell this '92 Civic half-customized, dropped with a primered door? I'll stop returning your texts after no less than 5 business days. Can we talk? I'm lonely.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 9, 2018)

ElRay said:


> Hey, I've got a BM6, built from hand-selected, tap-toned toanwoods (harvested on an odd-numbered day when the full moon was at it's peak), with Fishman Fluences (built by BKP), with a light absorbing black nanotube finish, built in Pondman's shop, hand polished by Mrs. Pond, tuned to the most (theoretically) heavy tuning (using 432 Hz) discovered by Mr. Big Noodles, using Kalium strings, specifically chosen for optimal tensions using Ishan's STC Java app, once owned by Bulb, flipped by Methab, for sale.
> 
> Edit: Buyer pays shipping and PayPal fees.



What's the lowest price you can do?


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## KnightBrolaire (Apr 9, 2018)

ElRay said:


> Hey, I've got a BM6, built from hand-selected, tap-toned toanwoods (harvested on an odd-numbered day when the full moon was at it's peak), with Fishman Fluences (built by BKP), with a light absorbing black nanotube finish, built in Pondman's shop, hand polished by Mrs. Pond, tuned to the most (theoretically) heavy tuning (using 432 Hz) discovered by Mr. Big Noodles, using Kalium strings, specifically chosen for optimal tensions using Ishan's STC Java app, once owned by Bulb, flipped by Methab, for sale.
> 
> Edit: Buyer pays shipping and PayPal fees.


I'll offer you less than half of what you're asking and then get offended when you say you can't drop the price that far


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## Ebony (Apr 9, 2018)

ElRay said:


> Hey, I've got a BM6, built from hand-selected, tap-toned toanwoods (harvested on an odd-numbered day when the full moon was at it's peak), with Fishman Fluences (built by BKP), with a light absorbing black nanotube finish, built in Pondman's shop, hand polished by Mrs. Pond, tuned to the most (theoretically) heavy tuning (using 432 Hz) discovered by Mr. Big Noodles, using Kalium strings, specifically chosen for optimal tensions using Ishan's STC Java app, once owned by Bulb, flipped by Methab, for sale.
> 
> Edit: Buyer pays shipping and PayPal fees.



Is that the one with the inlay made from Nolly's wisdom tooth? I'll just assume the bidding starts at 120k and offer double that before some insta/youtube-famous djentleman persuades you to sell it to him at a discount in exchange for a shoutout.


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## Hollowway (Apr 9, 2018)

The906 said:


> Craigslist response: Do you still have it? How much? Would you take 4 old golf clubs and a Crate combo plus pool cleaning services in trade? I really want this, can you drive to Tucson and bring an amp so I can try it out? How much? Can you hold it until I sell this '92 Civic half-customized, dropped with a primered door? I'll stop returning your texts after no less than 5 business days. Can we talk? I'm lonely.


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## QuantumCybin (Apr 10, 2018)

I send u a cashiers check via USPS and arrange shipping thru my movers once check clears u will have ur first payment in 24 hrs.....is this ok w/ u? Thx


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## sakeido (Apr 10, 2018)

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> How do you guys feel about Blackmachines that aren’t black?



the name should change based on the guitar's actual color

My guitar was going to have a redwood top, until it got stolen out of Doug's shed or something, but it would have been a redmachine. the one with the weird colored tuners and hardware a bluemachine. Nolly's quilted top should have been a biegemachine


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## kruneh (Apr 18, 2018)

But they are fairly nice, right..?


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## oniduder (Apr 18, 2018)

i like the 6 or 7 string ones, the design looks good at that point

as soon as you go to 8 strings, especially fanned, i think the reverse headstock looks ridiculous, this includes any luthier that uses a similar design, a more balanced headstock would look better to my eye, the reverse headstock looks like it takes up about a foot or so or 30 cm for you people that have a better system of measurement etc

it looks like about a fourth of the entire guitar, 

plus the thinness is interesting but seems silly all in all, and idk from any experience because there was never any way i was going to drop 15k on steel and wood, 

point being, perry had this down, "hypemachine" nuff said, /thread


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## cmtd (Apr 18, 2018)

kruneh said:


> But they are fairly nice, right..?
> 
> View attachment 60536



Is that a real b7? Never saw that one before. Any idea what the top is?


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## narad (Apr 18, 2018)

cmtd said:


> Is that a real b7? Never saw that one before. Any idea what the top is?



Spalt maple.


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## KnightBrolaire (Apr 18, 2018)

cmtd said:


> Is that a real b7? Never saw that one before. Any idea what the top is?


looks like a spalted maple top


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Apr 18, 2018)

malted staple


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## Seabeast2000 (Apr 18, 2018)

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> malted staple


Yum


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## Vyn (Apr 18, 2018)

Just had a random thought - there's something amusing about people complaining about how company XYZ ripped off the Blackmachine headstock when it itself is basically a rip off of a reverse Ibanez headstock with a cut-away.


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## narad (Apr 18, 2018)

Vyn said:


> Just had a random thought - there's something amusing about people complaining about how company XYZ ripped off the Blackmachine headstock when it itself is basically a rip off of a reverse Ibanez headstock with a cut-away.



Or a reverse Parker headstock, or an old BC Rich style headstock. I find it amusing that people can't even agree on what Doug ripped off. Doug brought something new to the table with the headstock design, as he did with that ebony top / ivoroid binding / thin body / logo plate on the back / tele control panel on the back / ibanezy shape with forearm bevel that stops in the middle of the bridge. The guys that copy it basically copy that entire spec.

Doug tried to do something different, and maybe you can see bits of inspiration here or there. The other guys tried to be as Doug as possible, as evident from them copying all the things, even arbitrary blackmachine things like control panel layouts and the logo plate.


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## Vyn (Apr 18, 2018)

narad said:


> Or a reverse Parker headstock, or an old BC Rich style headstock. I find it amusing that people can't even agree on what Doug ripped off. Doug brought something new to the table with the headstock design, as he did with that ebony top / ivoroid binding / thin body / logo plate on the back / tele control panel on the back / ibanezy shape with forearm bevel that stops in the middle of the bridge. The guys that copy it basically copy that entire spec.
> 
> Doug tried to do something different, and maybe you can see bits of inspiration here or there. The other guys tried to be as Doug as possible, as evident from them copying all the things, even arbitrary blackmachine things like control panel layouts and the logo plate.



Not disagreeing with you at all - I'm more referring to the camp that thinks "everything Doug did was completely original and that the copycats can burn in hell" without acknowledging that Doug himself borrowed from other designs himself. It's almost a cult sometimes.


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Apr 18, 2018)

I’m sure Doug builds nice guitars but, if it wasn’t him, the 99.4% of aspiring bedroom shredders who fetishize Blackmachines without ever having been in the same room as one would just frot against some other treasure.

That’s why all the same Blackmachines keep getting passed around in their niche circles: These guys are rubbing their big black balls all over the guitar, failing to recapture the thrill (even after trying it in their sister’s bedroom), then relisting the thing for twenty thousand dollars. Look for the pubes in the listings - They often show up on that goofy logo plate that’s taken as an indicator of value.


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## Lorcan Ward (Apr 19, 2018)

^Where else would you get designs from? There's only so many ways you can design a comfortable body shape and functional headstock, hence why everything is basically a Strat or Les Paul variation. You can't just criticise that its a rip of just cause it resembles something else when it was never Doug's intention, its a BC Rich headstock that went through several years of modifications for weight relief and strengthening before it ended up being that headstock. Ripping off we would be using the Parker headstock design without any mods and calling it a day, which is not what happened.

@kruneh You need to share these pics of your beast.


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Apr 19, 2018)

Lorcan Ward said:


> You can't just criticise that its a rip of just cause it resembles something else


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## bostjan (Apr 19, 2018)

In the public eye, if you rip off anything more well-known than you are, you are a criminal, but if you rip off two different things (or more) equally in your design, you are a genius.


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## narad (Apr 19, 2018)

Of all the praise hurled at Doug, very little of it is claiming he's aesthetic genius. One look at those old blackmachines with the tribal flame inlays across the entire board would tell you he's not that.

I started this thread because I wanted to dig up that review, see some supporting pictures, and maybe get some additional perspectives on blackmachines in terms of their general craftsmanship and build quality. Not rehash the old arguments about how original the body design is. It's played out.


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## Seabeast2000 (Apr 19, 2018)

bostjan said:


> In the public eye, if you rip off anything more well-known than you are, you are a criminal, but if you rip off two different things (or more) equally in your design, you are a genius.


Nice Bruno Mars content.


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## KnightBrolaire (Apr 19, 2018)

the old adage " bad artists copy, great artists steal" comes to mind.

This crap about who copied who reminds me of the rabid fanboys in the orsmby gtr group.
People were ripping on Agape guitars' Salome design claiming that he ripped off Ormsby's Futura. Agape was posting prototypes of it all the way back to 2015 on instagram.












Some dumbasses in the GTR group also claimed that Padalka's neptune was a ripoff of the ormsby goliath (when the neptune has been around for years).


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## narad (Apr 19, 2018)

If there's anyone who shouldn't be on the accusing side of the copy debate, it's Perry Ormsby.


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## KnightBrolaire (Apr 19, 2018)

narad said:


> If there's anyone who shouldn't be on the accusing side of the copy debate, it's Perry Ormsby.


To be fair, he never said anything bad about either guitar that I posted previously. He also turned off commenting on both of those posts before anyone could mention how he copied the blackmachine,rhoads,jackson warrior, etc.
the bigger problem is the rabid fanboys that I've only seen equaled in kiesel's fb group


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## narad (Apr 19, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> the bigger problem is the rabid fanboys that I've only seen equaled in kiesel's fb group



Bastard...he even copied his fanbase...


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## lurè (Apr 19, 2018)

You can't copy an headstock design if you don't have an headstock.


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## StevenC (Apr 19, 2018)

narad said:


> Or a reverse Parker headstock, or an old BC Rich style headstock. I find it amusing that people can't even agree on what Doug ripped off. Doug brought something new to the table with the headstock design, as he did with that ebony top / ivoroid binding / thin body / logo plate on the back / tele control panel on the back / ibanezy shape with forearm bevel that stops in the middle of the bridge. The guys that copy it basically copy that entire spec.
> 
> Doug tried to do something different, and maybe you can see bits of inspiration here or there. The other guys tried to be as Doug as possible, as evident from them copying all the things, even arbitrary blackmachine things like control panel layouts and the logo plate.


Blackmachines are actually based on Jackson Soloists.


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## narad (Apr 19, 2018)

StevenC said:


> Blackmachines are actually based on Jackson Soloists.



I thought this was a joke at first but...


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## _MonSTeR_ (Apr 19, 2018)

StevenC said:


> Blackmachines are actually based on Jackson Soloists.


Agreed. At least that’s what I was told when I first played a Blackmachine back in 2003! At the time I thought it was more like an ESP KH2 than a soloist what with the reverse headstock and twin humbucker layout!


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## Humbuck (Apr 19, 2018)

The ranting hate some have for Blackmachine and Doug is ludicrous. Some of these posts are downright embarrassing.


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## oniduder (Apr 19, 2018)

Humbuck said:


> The ranting hate some have for Blackmachine and Doug is ludicrous. Some of these posts are downright embarrassing.



aren't you just embarrassed to be on this site in general? i am, this whole thing is a sham, and a shame, and something else clever insert somewhere in this post

i don't hate doug or blackmachine or anything besides myself, i just didn't like the design

oh well i hate myself no sharps here though so don't worry


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Apr 19, 2018)

Humbuck said:


> The ranting hate some have for Blackmachine and Doug is ludicrous. Some of these posts are downright embarrassing.



Finally, a voice of reason.


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## eggy in a bready (Apr 19, 2018)

Blackmachine sucks, but Bruno Mars is goddamn fantastic


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## Lorcan Ward (Apr 20, 2018)

The neck is also based of the early Jem models with a bunch of changes.



KnightBrolaire said:


> To be fair, he never said anything bad about either guitar that I posted previously. He also turned off commenting on both of those posts before anyone could mention how he copied the blackmachine,rhoads,jackson warrior, etc.
> the bigger problem is the rabid fanboys that I've only seen equaled in kiesel's fb group



I did catch a hilarious thread there where a Blackmachine was posted with "this guy copied the hypemachine" title. 



Humbuck said:


> The ranting hate some have for Blackmachine and Doug is ludicrous. Some of these posts are downright embarrassing.



"the B2 divided opinion as much in 2001 as it does today.."

This quote on the BM site is more relevant than ever. All though for different reasons now.


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## diagrammatiks (Apr 20, 2018)

on one hand some of the posts in the ormsby group are hilarious.

on the other hand if your brand value has shrunk so low that people think that you copied people that clearly copied you...that's nobodies fault but your own.


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## narad (Apr 20, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> on one hand some of the posts in the ormsby group are hilarious.
> 
> on the other hand if your brand value has shrunk so low that people think that you copied people that clearly copied you...that's nobodies fault but your own.



You can't blame Doug for how dumb Ormsby fans are.


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## diagrammatiks (Apr 20, 2018)

narad said:


> You can't blame Doug for how dumb Ormsby fans are.



No but I can blame somebody for not managing their brand identity. The fans are dumb but they’ve never even heard of blackmachine. So what are you gonna do.


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## narad (Apr 20, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> No but I can blame somebody for not managing their brand identity. The fans are dumb but they’ve never even heard of blackmachine. So what are you gonna do.



Mismanaged his brand all the way from 3k to 25k per guitar and as more potential buyers than he could possibly serve. Makes you wonder where he'd be if he managed it successfully by your standards.


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## diagrammatiks (Apr 20, 2018)

narad said:


> Mismanaged his brand all the way from 3k to 25k per guitar and as more potential buyers than he could possibly serve. Makes you wonder where he'd be if he managed it successfully by your standards.



1. He has nothing to do with that. 
2. He’s not charging 25k when he builds you one. 
3. We’ve already established that the used price is a giant circle jerk. 

At this point all I’m saying is that eventually more people will haves eyes on the hype machine and the raptor then a blackmachine. 

Why u so mad bro.


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## narad (Apr 20, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> 1. He has nothing to do with that.
> 2. He’s not charging 25k when he builds you one.
> 3. We’ve already established that the used price is a giant circle jerk.
> 
> ...



Just don’t see your point. Brand recognition on an Ormsby fan page is a goal for a high-end guitar builder in the same way that being talked about in a Hot Topic forum is a goal for Versace or Ralph Lauren.


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## _MonSTeR_ (Apr 21, 2018)

I don't know the guy, so these are genuine questions, but does Doug Campbell actually "want" to be a full time guitar builder? 

Or is he very content making the guitars he wants when he wants and selling them when he wants? I'm sure he could "manage his brand better" and hire staff, get Feline to build B2s and charge 10K a pop for them or what have you, or even get a Korean production line going. But to me it seems like his guitar building is a lucrative hobby more than a ge getter career plan.


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## StevenC (Apr 21, 2018)

I think Doug's issue is that the copymachines annoy him, because he spent a lot of time designing the guitar the way he wanted, and not really wanting to build guitars to anyone else's specs. He's more content making a few guitars every so often and selling them to people he knows, like he started doing originally, than having a huge waitlist and having to deal with all those people and all the flipping that'll come from it.

Auerswald is a kind of similar case, where he charges $25k for a guitar but will only build you one if you have a compelling idea for it.


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## ElRay (Apr 21, 2018)

Humbuck said:


> The ranting hate some have for Blackmachine and Doug is ludicrous. Some of these posts are downright embarrassing.


Yurightuknow. Everybody should just send me their BMs, clones and tributes and I'll properly dispose of them. I'll even make it a true community service and pay for the shipping!


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## narad (Apr 21, 2018)

ElRay said:


> Yurightuknow. Everybody should just send me their BMs, clones and tributes and I'll properly dispose of them. I'll even make it a true community service and pay for the shipping!



Some of those clones are 100% not worth the shipping cost.


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## StevenC (Apr 21, 2018)

narad said:


> Some of those clones are 100% not worth the shipping cost.


Like all the Skervesens and Ormsbies.


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## diagrammatiks (Apr 21, 2018)

StevenC said:


> Like all the Skervesens and Ormsbies.



Lol. I don’t think there’s a single skervesen or Ormsby that’s worse then the guitar referenced in the op


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## Edika (Apr 21, 2018)

The second hand market flippers crazy prices and the copymachines, regardless how well made they are, that annoy Doug is to an extend the way he managed his brand and his quirkiness in how he build guitars and for whom.

His guitars were hyped to death, that's not his fault and almost everyone that played them seems to agree they do sound that good. The thing is after all this hype he limited the amount of guitars he build and did not have any interest in expanding the brand amd making them more available. He didn't/doesn't have to but it's not surprising that specific individuals saw that as an opportunity to make an immense profit. Obviously they didn't sound as good as 10-15K to those individuals. These people lurk in any corner of commerce and while the least offensive it doesn't make them less annoying.

Then when people couldn't get them due to rarity and insane prices they turned to other luthiers to get copies or "inspired by" copies.

In short I understand Doug's frustration but he played his part int what has become of the Blackmachine fable.


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## narad (Apr 21, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> Lol. I don’t think there’s a single skervesen or Ormsby that’s worse then the guitar referenced in the op



There's definitely been some worse Skervesens. And given that most hypemachines are made in Korea along with a bunch of guitars that have hit-or-miss QC, I imagine there's a bunch there too. 

There used to be a video of Nolly playing the one referenced in OP, and despite its build flaws and shoddiness, it was a nice looking guitar that sounded good. I'd just like to bring to light exactly how that guitar was constructed, whether that pertains to the more recent ones, and in either case reflect on what you're getting for your money vs. alternatives.


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## Humbuck (Apr 21, 2018)

I'd love to see that original "teardown" post you are talking about too...


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## diagrammatiks (Apr 21, 2018)

narad said:


> There's definitely been some worse Skervesens. And given that most hypemachines are made in Korea along with a bunch of guitars that have hit-or-miss QC, I imagine there's a bunch there too.
> 
> There used to be a video of Nolly playing the one referenced in OP, and despite its build flaws and shoddiness, it was a nice looking guitar that sounded good. I'd just like to bring to light exactly how that guitar was constructed, whether that pertains to the more recent ones, and in either case reflect on what you're getting for your money vs. alternatives.



I dunno man that particular one was pretty hilarious. Afaik the issues were unique to that particular guitar though. But it’s been a while since I read that tear down.


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## cmtd (Apr 21, 2018)

narad said:


> And given that most hypemachines are made in Korea



Aren't Hypemachines made in Australia in the Ormsby custom shop? Thought the Hype GTR was the instrument made at WMI.


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## narad (Apr 21, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> I dunno man that particular one was pretty hilarious. Afaik the issues were unique to that particular guitar though. But it’s been a while since I read that tear down.



Hard to say, right? Naturally the owners aren't doing teardowns -- it's extremely counter to their own interests -- so it's a rare occurrence that a ballsy tech winds up with a blackmachine on his desk. If it happened more often, maybe we'd see larger trends. I imagine the new ones are better, if by no other reason than if someone is paying you $15k for a guitar, and you know the world has that expectation, you have the freedom and incentives not to cut any corners.



cmtd said:


> Aren't Hypemachines made in Australia in the Ormsby custom shop? Thought the Hype GTR was the instrument made at WMI.



It's the same thing, right? Just a different name for the Korean ones. I try to avoid staying up-to-date on Ormsby if I can though.


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## diagrammatiks (Apr 21, 2018)

It’s been a while since I’ve seen info on how new orders are done. I don’t remember seeing a new ngd for a Doug built guitar. I wonder if he has a gag agreement now. If your guitar shows up on the internet you won’t ever get another.


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## narad (Apr 21, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> It’s been a while since I’ve seen info on how new orders are done. I don’t remember seeing a new ngd for a Doug built guitar. I wonder if he has a gag agreement now. If your guitar shows up on the internet you won’t ever get another.



They're not being received by anyone on SSO. Or at least, not anyone that doesn't browse SSO from a dummy account. At this point I don't think there's any way to place an order really, just Doug building some stuff for people he already knows, or taking it to shows.


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## Flappydoodle (Apr 23, 2018)

Humbuck said:


> I'd love to see that original "teardown" post you are talking about too...



Seriously 

11 pages in and nobody has posted it

Archive link?

Waybackmachine?

Google cache?

Nothing?


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## Flappydoodle (Apr 23, 2018)

Humbuck said:


> I'd love to see that original "teardown" post you are talking about too...



Seriously 

11 pages in and nobody has posted it

Archive link?

Waybackmachine?

Google cache?

Nothing?


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 23, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> Seriously
> 
> 11 pages in and nobody has posted it
> 
> ...



It was nuked years ago. It wasn't just taken down from it's original source but purposely and thoroughly deleted. 

If it was as simple as Google'n I'm sure narad, who is some kind of computer doctor, would have found it. 

As I said earlier, this has been something numerous folks have been looking for. If it was still out there we would have seen it by now. 

I guess the hope beyond hope is that someone took screen shots of the whole thing and sees this and is willing to dump the pictures online again. 

I think this thread has run its course. If you find anything @narad I'll open this back up.


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