# Bebop akin to 21st Century Schizoid Man



## FortePenance (Aug 8, 2009)

Hi all, long time no talk, haven't been on the org for ages. @[email protected]

Anyway, I need your guys help, I have to write a 4000 word paper on the influence jazz had on 70s progressive rock (yes, during fucking summer ). In particular King Crimson and their bebop influence. Sooo...

Does anyone know of any bebop pieces that are fairly similar to the instrumental in 21st Century Schizoid Man? It doesn't matter whether they're similar rhythmically/melodically/etc. as long as they have some sort of withstanding similarity. Any free-jazz pieces that hold resemblance would do nicely too.

I've been pointed in the direction of John Coltrane, Dizzy Gillespie and Charlie Parker but I haven't explored those artists much (barring Coltrane's Miles Davis stuff). If all else fails, I'll just go with John Coltrane's Giant Steps... safe bet?

Any help would be absolutely fantastic - thanks.

*tl;dr: jazz/bebop pieces that sound like 21st century schizoid man?*


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## distressed_romeo (Aug 8, 2009)

If you're willing to get into Free Jazz territory, then you'll need to check out Sun Ra and Ornette Coleman. Individual pieces are hard to pinpoint, but here's a vid to get you started (more to come).



In terms of prog, you might want to investigate the Canterbury Scene as well, as those bands were probably more jazz-influenced than Crimson were.


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## kung_fu (Aug 8, 2009)

You'd probably have more luck pointing out the jazz influences in a band like Soft machine than with Crimson, at least early 70s crimson seemed to have more classical influences . A few progressive jazz artists worth looking into: Charles Mingus, Thelonious Monk, Eric Dolphy, George Russel. These jazzmen i've listed also have many classical influences (google "third Stream" jazz) and composition wise they have some pretty radical stuff (think Larks Tongues in Aspic). Does it have to be specifically bebop? Also does it have to resemble that particular song, or is that just the one you've decided to do?

Also, i wouldn't fall back on giant steps. IMO, if you have to pick a Coltrane tune, pick one with more of a "big chorus" ala schizoid man. Something like "A love supreme part 2 : Resolution", or even "Afro Blue".

I'll try to think of some specific tunes in the next little while.

Eric Dolphy "Hat & Beard"- this track could easily be compared to some of crimson's more experimental tracks (larks tongues etc.). odd time signature used throughout (9/8) something crimson did a lot. Pretty unique instrumentation and percussion, Dolphy also produces animal like-sounds on his instrument (bass clarinet/alto sax/flute) something jamie muir did (birdcalls etc.) and in later crimson belew often mimicked animals . you might also want to check out Zappa's tribute to dolphy on his album "weasels ripped my flesh", "The Eric Dolphy Memorial Barbecue"


Thelonious Monk "Brilliant Corners" - The intro theme has that heavy, brass section vibe ala schizoid. The way monk plays his cluster chords (often by using his fists to punch the piano) reminds me of the way fripp plays in the schizoid verse.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 8, 2009)

King Crimson has a lot of improvisation, but I wouldn't compare them to bebop; free jazz is more likely. Crimson's Larks' Tongues In Aspic is closer to this kind of thing:

Lizard, too.


I'd look to Eric Dolphy and Ornette Coleman for the free jazz stuff, and possibly Charles Mingus, whose music contained collective improvisation.


(If you want to be technical, Epistrophy is a Monk tune, so there's a connection to bebop there.)

Chick Corea played with Miles Davis on Bitches Brew, as did Wayne Shorter, both big names in jazz fusion.

Really, though, there is jazzier progressive rock. The Canterbury Scene is a rich source of jazz fusion and jazz-influenced progressive rock. Here, you're more likely to run into bebop influences. Check out the sax solo at 3:18 here:


More Canterbury:



Allan Holdsworth with Soft Machine:


I think that David Jackson with Van Der Graaf Generator was influenced by the bebop bunch. Not Canterbury, mind you:


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## FortePenance (Aug 9, 2009)

Excellent, thanks so much guys! This is great because I already am familiar with Monk and some Ornette Coleman and I have a Mingus album waiting to be listened to.

The paper's title is actually "To What Extent has Jazz Influenced 1960s-1970s Progressive Rock?" I picked a very open question so I could write about the various styles of jazz and pick any old prog band (only need 1 apparently). So I don't actually have to stick with King Crimson but I chose them because they're easily the 70s prog rock band I know the best lol. >_> In hindsight, it was probably a bit of a stupid choice  but at least I can work with stuff like Larks Tongues and Lizards (ty schecterwhore).

I should be able to milk 4000 words out of King Crimson though. 600 words about the similarities in melody, harmony/tonality, timbre, texture and rhythm with a decent conclusion with a bit thrown in about the canterbury scene etc. The course i'm doing (IB) is all about jumping through holes anyway. @[email protected]

Thanks again broskis


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## phaeded0ut (Aug 10, 2009)

Also look into Miles Davis and what he did with "Bitches Brew," I know this might be a little later than what you're looking to discuss. 
Might also be able to get into the orchestration of certain songs where Miles switched people's parts (this was done a bit more in the 80's when he and critics were clashing a bit more fiercely).


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## rodia (Aug 18, 2009)

That's your extended essay topic? Hell, I'm starting IB course this year, 'll see if it was a good idea.

Nevertheless, King Crimson is actually packed with free jazz accents or allusions, Lark's Tongues in Aspic album is mostly based on such improvisation, as generally seen in their concerts. I don't think so, however, that there were more of such cool-ass fast be-bop-influenced riffage and solos as in 21st Century Schizoid Man. 
Check out Emerson, Lake and Palmer - Tarkus and Trilogy maybe, they were definitely influenced by jazz, not sure whether you're going to find good examples, though.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 18, 2009)

rodia said:


> That's your extended essay topic? Hell, I'm starting IB course this year, 'll see if it was a good idea.
> 
> Nevertheless, King Crimson is actually packed with free jazz accents or allusions, Lark's Tongues in Aspic album is mostly based on such improvisation, as generally seen in their concerts. I don't think so, however, that there were more of such cool-ass fast be-bop-influenced riffage and solos as in 21st Century Schizoid Man.
> Check out Emerson, Lake and Palmer - Tarkus and Trilogy maybe, they were definitely influenced by jazz, not sure whether you're going to find good examples, though.



Keith Emerson's style definitely stems from ragtime. Trilogy has a bit of this, but does not rest as heavily on the jazz sound as many of ELP's other compositions. Trilogy is just beautiful, though, and deserves a listen. Check out Karn Evil 9: Second Impression for a good example of Keith Emerson's style. There's some fast soloing in Tarkus, but I don't know if it equates to bebop. Interesting tune, nonetheless. Too bad ASCAP/BMI is so zealous (I do recognize their reasons, however), or we could pull up a decent example from Youtube.



A point of commonality between jazz an progressive rock that I might note is the interest of fusing classical music into jazz and rock (respectively), as in third stream jazz (as well as free jazz), and many of the big prog rock names (ELP, Yes, VDGG, Kansas, ELO [if you can call them prog], Gentle Giant, etc.). Certainly, the harmonic vocabulary and stylistic features of contemporary classical music were incorporated into jazz and progressive rock, and progressive rock additionally borrowed from jazz. I can't think of a solid example of bebop in prog rock, though. I suppose that depends on one's definition of bebop. Is it the fast soloing? Hell, that's metal. Is it the harmonies? Is it the lack of danceable beat? Is it the "be-bop"?
Compare these two classic bebop tunes:


The styles are obviously very different. I don't know, if anyone can relate bebop to any of this rock music based on style, please do. I keep trying to come up with something that is definitively bebop, and keep falling short.

There's a lot of jazz in the music of Henry Cow, and their music is largely improvised (sometimes entirely improvised), so the connection to free jazz is indubitably there, and the amount of instrumental virtuosity, as well as harmonic preference, reflects bebop, yet they're called a rock group. They're also grouped in with the Canterbury bands, though I don't entirely understand why. Nevertheless, they're another group to bring into consideration:

Henry Cow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## matty2fatty (Aug 18, 2009)

I'd just like to thank everyone for posting all of these clips, its all stuff I hadn't had the chance to listen to before....especially Sun Ra, that totally blew my mind (and I actually thought that Dillenger Escape Plan was fucked).


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 19, 2009)

matty2fatty said:


> I'd just like to thank everyone for posting all of these clips, its all stuff I hadn't had the chance to listen to before....especially Sun Ra, that totally blew my mind (and I actually thought that Dillenger Escape Plan was fucked).


Happy to oblige.


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## Harry (Aug 19, 2009)

SchecterWhore said:


> There's a lot of jazz in the music of Henry Cow, and their music is largely improvised (sometimes entirely improvised), so the connection to free jazz is indubitably there, and the amount of instrumental virtuosity, as well as harmonic preference, reflects bebop, yet they're called a rock group. They're also grouped in with the Canterbury bands, though I don't entirely understand why. Nevertheless, they're another group to bring into consideration:
> 
> Henry Cow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Canterbury?
Never heard of them referred to as part of the Canterbury prog movement before.
They are however most definitely part of the Rock In Opposition Movement, along with Univers Zero, Art Zoyd. Univers Zero is easily my fave RIO band, although not really what the OP is looking for, but I recommend them anyway since it's good music IMO


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 19, 2009)

Harry said:


> Canterbury?
> Never heard of them referred to as part of the Canterbury prog movement before.
> They are however most definitely part of the Rock In Opposition Movement, along with Univers Zero, Art Zoyd. Univers Zero is easily my fave RIO band, although not really what the OP is looking for, but I recommend them anyway since it's good music IMO



From this site: Henry Cow
"Was Henry Cow a Canterbury band? Geographically, certainly not : most of its members had met while studying at Cambridge University. Musically, it's another problem, though : all members of Henry Cow have been involved in collaborations with Canterbury groups and artists at one point or another, and most of them still are. But while the music of Henry Cow took some of its roots in the Canterbury school, most notably early Soft Machine, other influences are discernable (Frank Zappa, Bela Bartok, Kurt Weil...), and furthermore Henry Cow in turn spawned its own kind of 'scene', known as the 'Rock In Opposition' school, named after the collective they had formed in the late 1970's with other European bands of similar political orientation, the spirit of which has lived on to this day, musically if not ideologically."

I've never agreed with the Canterbury label. It seems silly, as none of the members of the group are names that pop up when people talk about Canterbury bands, and the musical style is far and away from what Soft Machine and the like were doing.

What I've heard of Univers Zero, I really couldn't get into. Could you recommend a tune?


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## Harry (Aug 20, 2009)

^It's hard to say you'd like any of it, as it's all fundamentally chamber rock music.
And as it is, the Canterbury label is confusing in general, not just for Henry Cow, but for many of the Canterbury bands because a lot of them were never from Canterbury in the first place.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 20, 2009)

I've been checking Univers Zero out on Youtube since last night. Stuff like this is cool, but it's like film music, and I don't hear a direction:

(3:30 sounds like a metal riff, ha.)

This, on the other hand, is nifty, but it's still a bit uninspired to me:


Something with a broader dynamic range would be awesome. Or is that just not their style?


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