# Marc Okubo now with Kiesel?



## QuantumCybin (Feb 24, 2018)

Pretty surprising he left Jackson; he’s been with them for years.


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## gunch (Feb 24, 2018)

Top 10 anime betrayals


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## gunshow86de (Feb 24, 2018)

Full-size:


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## teqnick (Feb 24, 2018)

Yeah, just saw this on IG. He played a soloist when i saw them last week, but it'll be interesting to see how this pans out.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 24, 2018)

I actually prefer this over his Jackson. 

I still miss his RGD though. I know it was a stock guitar, but fuck I love the RGD so much.


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## feraledge (Feb 24, 2018)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I actually prefer this over his Jackson.


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## couverdure (Feb 24, 2018)

Despite all the customer service horror stories that's worth entire threads, Kiesel seem to have a great track record for artist endorsements, which is why a lot of players have been switching over to them. From what I read in the Andy James thread, an endorser can receive up to five free guitars, then get 40% off on their next build, which sounds like a huge deal to me.


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## Randy (Feb 24, 2018)

No hate on Kiesel. I dig the specs on this especially, but their inline headstock looks cheapy to me


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 24, 2018)

Randy said:


> No hate on Kiesel. I dig the specs on this especially, but their inline headstock looks cheapy to me



This is true, tho.

I miss the pointy headstock.


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## Xaios (Feb 25, 2018)

Randy said:


> their inline headstock looks cheapy to me


It reminds me a lot of the headstock from the Washburn WG series...

...which yeah, was also pretty ugly IMO, and personally reinforces the cheap feeling.


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## Hollowway (Feb 25, 2018)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> This is true, tho.
> 
> I miss the pointy headstock.



That’s because the reverse inline Jackson HS is one of history’s greatest designs. Right after the Roman arch, and before the iPhone.


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## oracles (Feb 25, 2018)

"Biting your nose off to spite your face" colourized, 2018


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## lewis (Feb 25, 2018)

i love guitars that look like they were built by the player. This ticks that box

So cool. I would rock that.
Also, what Pickup is he using?


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## oracles (Feb 25, 2018)

lewis said:


> Also, what Pickup is he using?



Fishman, hard to say which one specifically though. I'd venture a guess at Moderns


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## noise in my mind (Feb 25, 2018)

This makes me think of the taste of Peptobismol.


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## JimF (Feb 25, 2018)

Didn’t he used to play Floyd equipped guitars? It doesn’t appeal to me but I’m a Jackson fanboy


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## Velokki (Feb 25, 2018)

This is such a bummer. I'm totally in love with his pink soloist. I was almost gonna custom shop order a pink USA Soloist, would've bought one in a heartbeat if it was a production model. I mean, look at this:


The Kiesel just looks really cheap compared to that. Well, actually... anything other than a Jackson Soloist would look wrong to my eyes. Not liking this at all, haha.


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 25, 2018)

blech I hate the raw tone look 99% of the time. never been a fan of kiesel's inline headstock either, always greatly preferred their 3x3 pointy headstocks.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 25, 2018)

I wonder if this has anything to do with Jackson's CS backlog.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 25, 2018)

feraledge said:


>



I actually was thinking of his trans-pink 6-string. It looked really bland to me.

His solid-colored 7-strings on the other hand... Take it back. Those smoke his Kiesel.


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## cip 123 (Feb 25, 2018)

Randy said:


> No hate on Kiesel. I dig the specs on this especially, but their inline headstock looks cheapy to me


Isn't this inline headstock a Dean rip-off? Could be why it looks cheapy if you associate it with that.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 25, 2018)

I think the headstock is fine. 

I also still think that the "K Series" is one of the best designs they have, I would just never pay twice as much for it.


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## kevdes93 (Feb 25, 2018)

Sheesh what a downgrade. His Jacksons were the tits.


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## Womb raider (Feb 25, 2018)

Yea he had some of the coolest soloists, I'm a big fan of the pastel variety. 
A little off topic, but it looks like Jackson signed Brandon Ellis of TBDM so that will be cool what they cook up.


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## spudmunkey (Feb 25, 2018)

For me, I don't care for the optional Vader-style bevels on the Kiesel. I think it makes how the body comes together, at the neck, look off-balance to me. I think I'd actually like it much more if it had the "standard" squared off perimeter edges. It would look a bit more like the soloist, especially with this model's new body. This is Kiesel's DC700 which just got re-designed (along with the DC600) to have a flatter bottom, which is more like the Soloist, but also longer upper horn, both of which, when the body hangs on a strap, will bring the nut in closer. It's effectively the body they've been using with the longer scale DC7X (which they eliminated as a stand-alone model and just made it the 27" scale option to the DC700) and the DC800.


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## Zalbu (Feb 26, 2018)

Man, Jackson missed out on the signature series of a lifetime, Marcs solid pink Soloists are iconic. But I can't blame him for making the switch, going with Kiesel is probably far more lucrative for him and he's talked a lot about how hard it is to break even in a band like Veil of Maya and how they intentionally went with a more mainstream sound on Matriarch to be able to land higher profile gigs.


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## Jonathan20022 (Feb 26, 2018)

Such a downgrade, hope the perks are worth it to him.


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## oracles (Feb 26, 2018)

Zalbu said:


> Man, Jackson missed out on the signature series of a lifetime, Marcs solid pink Soloists are iconic.



Hardly. In djent circles, sure. Outside of that, barely anyone knows who he is, giving him a sig model wouldn't have been a smart move, which is why it never happened. Switching to Kiesel because you're salty is a classic "bite your nose off to spite your face" move.


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## Zalbu (Feb 26, 2018)

oracles said:


> Hardly. In djent circles, sure. Outside of that, barely anyone knows who he is, giving him a sig model wouldn't have been a smart move, which is why it never happened. Switching to Kiesel because you're salty is a classic "bite your nose off to spite your face" move.


You don't need to know the guy or his music to buy his gear, it's not like every single person who picks up a Mark Tremonti baritone PRS are diehard Creed or Alter Bridge fans. Besides, there are way more questionable artists who have gotten a signature guitar.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 26, 2018)

Jackson, and more specifically FMIC, didn't not give him a sig. out of spite. They likely weighed the options and chose not to. 

As great spec'd as his sigs were, and I'd certainly be interested as someone who has wanted a USA Soloist 7 with trem, I'm not sure how well they'd sell overall. The Misha seems to be doing well, but there's a lot more brand power there. 

It seems like he just wanted more short term returns. Which is perfectly fine. Dudes gotta eat.


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## Zalbu (Feb 26, 2018)

Yup, it's pretty silly to think that Jackson didn't give him a sig to spite him but I still think it would have done better than a lot of other artist sigs, especially if they'd offer it in more flat color than just pink.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 26, 2018)

Zalbu said:


> Yup, it's pretty silly to think that Jackson didn't give him a sig to spite him but I still think it would have done better than a lot of other artist sigs, especially if they'd offer it in more flat color than just pink.



Wouldn't it come in the colors he wants, like pink? 

I get it, I want something pretty close to what he spec'd, but it's not like him leaving does anything to the chances of that happening.


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## cip 123 (Feb 26, 2018)

Well there is more demand for the 80's kinda colours nowadays at least from what I've seen. A pink Single pup Soloist could've actually been a good seller if they kept the sig stuff to just a truss rod cover or back of the headstock.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 26, 2018)

cip 123 said:


> Well there is more demand for the 80's kinda colours nowadays at least from what I've seen. A pink Single pup Soloist could've actually been a good seller if they kept the sig stuff to just a truss rod cover or back of the headstock.



Is there though? On guitars in this price range?

I know there's a lot of forum interest, but does that translate into real sales?

Where are all the $3k bright color production 7 guitars?


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## GXPO (Feb 26, 2018)

^^In 2018 Ibanez catalogue, where they belong


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 26, 2018)

GXPO said:


> ^^In 2018 Ibanez catalogue, where they belong



*Citation Needed*


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## Eptaceros (Feb 26, 2018)

I'm a sucker for non-painted guitars, love to see wood. That being said, the raw grain transparency here looks absolutely horrible, looks like the body never got finished.


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## Zalbu (Feb 26, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Wouldn't it come in the colors he wants, like pink?
> 
> I get it, I want something pretty close to what he spec'd, but it's not like him leaving does anything to the chances of that happening.


Well yeah it'd come in pink, but if they want to sell more models then they could offer it in more colors to appeal to the people who aren't quite as flamboyant as Marc.

Doesn't really matter now though, but it's a shame since his Soloists are some of my favorite guitars ever. This and the pink model John Mayer played


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## GXPO (Feb 26, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> *Citation Needed*



I was referring to the 30th anniversary Jem reissue, but I got my year wrong.


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## cip 123 (Feb 26, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Is there though? On guitars in this price range?
> 
> I know there's a lot of forum interest, but does that translate into real sales?
> 
> Where are all the $3k bright color production 7 guitars?


I just meant with Charvel doing a bit more, sig model for Satchel too. Ibanez reissuing the 550, Schecter with the Sun valley Shredders. Jackson even doing that sl4x reissue thing.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 26, 2018)

cip 123 said:


> I just meant with Charvel doing a bit more, sig model for Satchel too. Ibanez reissuing the 550, Schecter with the Sun valley Shredders. Jackson even doing that sl4x reissue thing.



Yeah, stuff in the $1k range is colorful, but that's a whole different ballpark. 

Jackson Signature USA 7s are $3k+. It's a whole different clientele. 

I'm sure there are folks that fit that. Heck, my newest Suhr is going to be neon green. I just don't see it being a huge seller overall.


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## cip 123 (Feb 26, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Yeah, stuff in the $1k range is colorful, but that's a whole different ballpark.
> 
> Jackson Signature USA 7s are $3k+. It's a whole different clientele.
> 
> I'm sure there are folks that fit that. Heck, my newest Suhr is going to be neon green. I just don't see it being a huge seller overall.



It wouldn't necessarily have to be a USA, in fact that'd be a pretty poor choice imo. A korean/indo(no idea where Jackson make their stuff) model would do just fine I think, bright, simple spec decent enough quality.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 26, 2018)

cip 123 said:


> It wouldn't necessarily have to be a USA, in fact that'd be a pretty poor choice imo. A korean/indo(no idea where Jackson make their stuff) model would do just fine I think, bright, simple spec decent enough quality.



Sounds like another color option for the existing SL Pro Series. No need for artist endorsements or anything to just provide another color to an existing model. 

I figured that at least a USA model would be something that they don't currently offer.


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## cip 123 (Feb 26, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Sounds like another color option for the existing SL Pro Series. No need for artist endorsements or anything to just provide another color to an existing model.
> 
> I figured that at least a USA model would be something that they don't currently offer.


A single fluence with a floyd I think would work. Unless I'm missing that they already have a single pup soloist.


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## Randy (Feb 26, 2018)

Too many pages for me to quote the other people who referenced the headstock or replied to me, so forgive that but it reminds me a lot of then Dan Spitz TMNT PRS:







My problem with both of them is the mismatched curves and lines. I'm not an expert, and design is subjective but typically you match or duplicate radii/curves/angles to make a shape look cohesive. The Spitz and the Kiesel, the tuner side, the opposite side and the tip all have different angles to them.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 26, 2018)

cip 123 said:


> A single fluence with a floyd I think would work. Unless I'm missing that they already have a single pup soloist.



Sorry I kept seeing the two pickup one in searches.


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## gunshow86de (Feb 26, 2018)

He added a video playing a white Kiesel.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BfoKzY_gzXn/?taken-by=marceatsfood


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## Masquerade (Feb 27, 2018)

Be interesting to see if he got an 8 string from Kiesel too


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## technomancer (Feb 27, 2018)

Randy said:


> Too many pages for me to quote the other people who referenced the headstock or replied to me, so forgive that but it reminds me a lot of then Dan Spitz TMNT PRS:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That headstock is proof that some people should not be allowed to use a full custom shop  (and yes Spitz did design it himself)


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## MikeH (Feb 27, 2018)

I feel like Kiesel is pulling what Legator did, where they just start sniping people who are on big name rosters (Ibanez, Jackson, ESP) and offering them a full custom so they’ll come over to their side. I mean, clearly it’s working, but how many people have a shit about Legator after a while, if at all?


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## Hollowway (Feb 27, 2018)

MikeH said:


> I feel like Kiesel is pulling what Legator did, where they just start sniping people who are on big name rosters (Ibanez, Jackson, ESP) and offering them a full custom so they’ll come over to their side. I mean, clearly it’s working, but how many people have a shit about Legator after a while, if at all?


Yeah, I think that is a smart move for an unknown company, but I’m not sure Kiesel is unknown. But, it could be we’re just so geeky about guitars we think it’s a household name. Perhaps the average guy wanting a custom doesn’t know about them?


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## QuantumCybin (Feb 27, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, I think that is a smart move for an unknown company, but I’m not sure Kiesel is unknown. But, it could be we’re just so geeky about guitars we think it’s a household name. Perhaps the average guy wanting a custom doesn’t know about them?



It’s been said somewhere else here before, but I feel like 99% of people only know a Les Paul or a Stratocaster just by shape, and 90% of guitarists only know Fender and Gibson exist lol


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## Hollowway (Feb 27, 2018)

QuantumCybin said:


> It’s been said somewhere else here before, but I feel like 99% of people only know a Les Paul or a Stratocaster just by shape



I’m finally in the elite 1% of something!


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## QuantumCybin (Feb 27, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> I’m finally in the elite 1% of something!



Now if only I could be in the 1% of actual skill....shit, I’d take top 90% at this point


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Feb 28, 2018)

I’d hazard that more people are aware of the “Carvin” brand than the current Super Bevel Bros. incarnation that buried it upside down and naked.


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## Harry (Feb 28, 2018)

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> I’d hazard that more people are aware of the “Carvin” brand than the current Super Bevel Bros. incarnation that buried it upside down and naked.



Yep. I remember when the Kiesel name started blowing up around here. I knew Carvin well and good, but I had literally zero idea who or what a Kiesel was and didn't understand why everyone was getting their panties wet (and well, seeing THAT about them, I guess I still don't and wont ever )
Somehow I had never seen the name Kiesel referenced anywhere ever and I'd never looked into the history of the company beyond reading and seeing how Steve Vai played their amps in the '80s.
But it would seem right there in the Wikipedia article that a Lowel C Kiesel founded the company. Ah well


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## JEngelking (Feb 28, 2018)

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> Super Bevel Bros.


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## ArtDecade (Feb 28, 2018)

Reminds me of the old Peavey Vandenberg. Not a bad thing, really.


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## spudmunkey (Feb 28, 2018)

JEngelking said:


>



For what it's worth, he likely didn't come up with that. It was the shirt that Jeff wore to NAMM. 
https://scontent-sea1-1.cdninstagra...ig_cache_key=MTY5OTYzMTE2MTUxMDcxNTgzNg==.2.c


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## MFB (Feb 28, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> For what it's worth, he likely didn't come up with that. It was the shirt that Jeff wore to NAMM.
> https://scontent-sea1-1.cdninstagram.com/vp/7518bb251e0915f3ebfa07ba09c18177/5B1E6813/t51.2885-15/s480x480/e35/c1.0.1078.1078/26865203_1795253540546911_3940789389235322880_n.jpg?ig_cache_key=MTY5OTYzMTE2MTUxMDcxNTgzNg==.2.c



Good Christ, I forgot how punchable his face looks


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## QuantumCybin (Feb 28, 2018)

MFB said:


> Good Christ, I forgot how punchable his face looks


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## JEngelking (Mar 1, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> For what it's worth, he likely didn't come up with that. It was the shirt that Jeff wore to NAMM.
> https://scontent-sea1-1.cdninstagram.com/vp/7518bb251e0915f3ebfa07ba09c18177/5B1E6813/t51.2885-15/s480x480/e35/c1.0.1078.1078/26865203_1795253540546911_3940789389235322880_n.jpg?ig_cache_key=MTY5OTYzMTE2MTUxMDcxNTgzNg==.2.c



Oh man, I didn't even realize. He's gone meta.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Mar 9, 2018)

couverdure said:


> Despite all the customer service horror stories that's worth entire threads, Kiesel seem to have a great track record for artist endorsements, which is why a lot of players have been switching over to them. From what I read in the Andy James thread, an endorser can receive up to five free guitars, then get 40% off on their next build, which sounds like a huge deal to me.


So, that is all that it comes down to here. Free guitars.

I know that there are other factors that some big companies offer such as cash incentives (along with sales percentages for those with signature guitars). However, Kiesel doesn't offer anything other than "Hey, free guitars! Come get your free guitars!" to entice artists.

I get it though. Gear is expensive. This cuts costs for players. And obviously, they will have multiple guitars for touring on the road and for recording in studio. However, to me, it seems like a brand that would offer other incentives would be more beneficial. (Something in your pocket other than just a free guitar, I mean.)

Brand loyalty seems to be a dying thing these days. But, we all understand that musicians have to make a living any way that they can. (I just don't think Kiesel is contributing to that with, again, anything really worthwhile such as cash incentives, for example.)

I just couldn't hop on a hype-machine such as Kiesel knowing their long history of customer service mistakes, bad PR plunders, and outright atrocious behavior across various forums (including this one).



Zalbu said:


> Man, Jackson missed out on the signature series of a lifetime, Marc's solid pink Soloists are iconic.


I agree. I've seen many players crying for a Jackson Marc Okubo signature (whether USA or imported from an Asian-based factory).



Zalbu said:


> But I can't blame him for making the switch, going with Kiesel is probably far more lucrative for him


How so? We just established that Kiesel doesn't really offer much as far as "short term returns" or incentives to endorsed players on their roster.



MaxOfMetal said:


> It seems like he just wanted more short term returns. Which is perfectly fine. Dudes gotta eat.


 ^ Ding ding ding! Winner! ^


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 9, 2018)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> So, that is all that it comes down to here. Free guitars.
> 
> I know that there are other factors that some big companies offer such as cash incentives (along with sales percentages for those with signature guitars). However, Kiesel doesn't offer anything other than "Hey, free guitars! Come get your free guitars!" to entice artists.
> 
> ...



They can just sell the guitars, especially given the amount supposedly offered and for the discount they're said to receive on future orders. 

That's actually how a lot of artists have made money. Remember when Buz and Tosin unloaded thier LACS?


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## Emperor Guillotine (Mar 9, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> They can just sell the guitars, especially given the amount supposedly offered and for the discount they're said to receive on future orders.
> 
> That's actually how a lot of artists have made money. Remember when Buz and Tosin unloaded their LACS?


Ah, yes. Good point. Sell the guitars and get a small chunk of money to last for a small amount of time.

With that said, have you noticed that Kiesel guitars seem to have a difficult time moving in the used marketplace recently? Even if they were artist owned, many just sit for so long, even after so many price drops by the seller. Seems like folks can't seem to offload their Kiesels easily enough. I'm not sure if this is due to specs of each build being fairly unique to the tastes of the seller, or if it's due to the reputation of Kiesel as a company, or due to just oversaturation in the marketplace.


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## JEngelking (Mar 9, 2018)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> ... or if it's due to the reputation of Kiesel as a company...



Gotta say, while I admittedly haven't paid too much attention to the used marketplace trends lately, that's the case for me and may be for others as well if we're discussing strictly the marketplace on here. When I was in college I'd spend hours on the Carvin builder spec'ing out builds that I'd love to order, thinking about when I graduated and got a full-time job I'd be making enough to be able to order these awesome builds that I yearned for so bad. 

Now that I'm in the position that I used to daydream about though, and after the company has pulled so many antics I've heard about, while I could afford to order a Kiesel now I just don't want to. As badly as I would like to get a CT, JB, or most recently a Zeus, now I think I'd prefer another PRS, Jackson or Charvel, or a Xen/OAF. I'd just rather save up a bit more and order from another company and give my support to them instead if I feel that they have a good track record and good customer service, instead of buying this guitar that I have this negative connotation attached to, even if I did end up having a pleasant ordering experience with them.

Maybe I'm overthinking or something like that, but that's just my .


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 9, 2018)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Ah, yes. Good point. Sell the guitars and get a small chunk of money to last for a small amount of time.
> 
> With that said, have you noticed that Kiesel guitars seem to have a difficult time moving in the used marketplace recently? Even if they were artist owned, many just sit for so long, even after so many price drops by the seller. Seems like folks can't seem to offload their Kiesels easily enough. I'm not sure if this is due to specs of each build being fairly unique to the tastes of the seller, or if it's due to the reputation of Kiesel as a company, or due to just oversaturation in the marketplace.



How much long-term financial incentives do you think low level artists get? Even at larger companies like, such as ESP or Ibanez?


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Mar 10, 2018)

This probably belongs in the first world problems thread but, I’ve re-read the last four pages, and still can’t decide whose speculation is less valid.


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## bmth4111 (Feb 9, 2019)

His new guitars are really cool, even if the trans purple one is a little gaudy. I wonder what pickups hes using now since before they were fishman moderns. Anyone know if he used moderns on the eclipse and false idol albums?


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## FancyFish (Feb 9, 2019)

bmth4111 said:


> His new guitars are really cool, even if the trans purple one is a little gaudy. I wonder what pickups hes using now since before they were fishman moderns. Anyone know if he used moderns on the eclipse and false idol albums?
> View attachment 66942



I believe he is using the new Kiesel active pickups, the Polarity I think.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Feb 9, 2019)

bmth4111 said:


> His new guitars are really cool, even if the trans purple one is a little gaudy. I wonder what pickups hes using now since before they were fishman moderns. Anyone know if he used moderns on the eclipse and false idol albums?


Fishman Moderns didn't exist back in 2012 when _Eclipse_ came out.

At the time of _Eclipse_, Marc was still mainly using his red Jackson Custom Shop Soloist with EMGs.
Pictured below.





He might've used his Ibanez RGD2120z or early Ibanez RG920QM (since he was in a promotional ad shot right when the Premium line was first started), but I'm pretty certain that he quit using Ibanez guitars after the _[id]_ album and tour cycle and began focusing primarily on Jackson since I recall him playing a few other Jackson guitars live (what looks like a lower-tier cherry sunburst Soloist import model in addition to a black Soloist import model).

Ibanez RG2120z





Ibanez RG920QM





Cherry Sunburst Soloist





Black Soloist





There also is a really old one-off playthrough of "Vicious Circles" from the _Eclipse_ album on YouTube where Marc was playing a Washburn WM526, but I'm not sure how long he had the guitar or if it was even his. (Remember that Michael Keene produced _The Common Man's Collapse_, and Keene was the poster-boy for the WM526 model for the longest time.)





Marc also had two TSmith guitars around the time of _Eclipse_, but he ditched those pretty quick due to issues with the construction and quality of both builds not withstanding the rigors of touring. A guy whom I know (strictly from online interaction) actually bought the TSmith that Marc used in the Guitar Messenger videos from years ago. The guy confirmed the issues.

The commonality between all of the guitars? EMG pickups. Marc has been an EMG player all the way up until _False Idol_.


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## bmth4111 (Feb 9, 2019)

Oh that's cool I did not keisel made their own active pickups.

Didn't realize how long ago that Eclipse album came out hahaha.
But yeah those washburns are really cool.
Now if I could just figure out what amp model he uses on his axe fx or what his its effects chain looks like.


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## bmth4111 (Feb 9, 2019)

also here's my personal favorite Kiesel guitar of his. I love the clean look and the painted fishman. Reminds me a lot of the kxk 8 string posted on this forum long time ago.

I wonder which Fishman pickup cover they used to paint over? Also what voice is used.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 9, 2019)

bmth4111 said:


> View attachment 66952
> also here's my personal favorite Kiesel guitar of his. I love the clean look and the painted fishman. Reminds me a lot of the kxk 8 string posted on this forum long time ago.
> 
> I wonder which Fishman pickup cover they used to paint over? Also what voice is used.



...Shit, I actually really love that.


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## gunch (Feb 9, 2019)

wonder why he uses non locking trems now


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 9, 2019)

gunch said:


> wonder why he uses non locking trems now



Because Kiesel doesn't offer them on 7s anymore.


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## gunch (Feb 9, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Because Kiesel doesn't offer them on 7s anymore.



Oh right, that slipped my mind.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Feb 9, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Because Kiesel doesn't offer them on 7s anymore.


Yep. Kiesel pretty much only seems to push Hipshot stuff nowadays. And besides, it seems that a lot of artists who use trems are switching to the Hipshot Contour or opting for it nowadays.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 9, 2019)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Yep. Kiesel pretty much only seems to push Hipshot stuff nowadays. And besides, it seems that a lot of artists who use trems are switching to the Hipshot Contour or opting for it nowadays.



Yeah, non-lockers are very "in" right now.


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 9, 2019)

bmth4111 said:


> View attachment 66952
> also here's my personal favorite Kiesel guitar of his. I love the clean look and the painted fishman. Reminds me a lot of the kxk 8 string posted on this forum long time ago.
> 
> I wonder which Fishman pickup cover they used to paint over? Also what voice is used.


it's just moderns, prob the black plastic version. They've done that color shift on a zeus bass body/pickups as well, it looks sickkk.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BsBO_83nqs7/


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## bmth4111 (Feb 10, 2019)

In other pictures the pickups look pretty glossy. 

I wonder how he gets good string tension/tight tone with 11-56,70 gauge string on a 25.5 scale guitar in drop b with a f# for the 7th string.

I play in gcgcfad on 25.5 scale with a Floyd and my string tension still feels loose to me...


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 10, 2019)

Some of us are just weird like that. I use 10 - 52 in drop B. 

I'm a pretty hard picker, too. Use .88mm picks.


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## TheDandy (Feb 10, 2019)

I’m using 11-56 + 70 for drop F# on my JP7, no complaints here.


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## bmth4111 (Feb 11, 2019)

Wow that's wild. So no issues with tremolo picking/fast picking. Or issues with the strings moving around during fast picking?


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## Emperor Guillotine (Feb 11, 2019)

bmth4111 said:


> In other pictures the pickups look pretty glossy.
> 
> I wonder how he gets good string tension/tight tone with 11-56,70 gauge string on a 25.5 scale guitar in drop b with a f# for the 7th string.
> 
> I play in gcgcfad on 25.5 scale with a Floyd and my string tension still feels loose to me...


Not even remotely going to work, kid. You want a low F# on a standard scale? You'll easily need 90-100 string gauge. At that point, it won't even intonate correctly and will sound like total shit.

It's 2019. People need to realize that tuning lower and lower requires a longer scale length.



TheDandy said:


> I’m using 11-56 + 70 for drop F# on my JP7, no complaints here.


Bullshit.


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 11, 2019)

just to have a tight f# on my 27" scale 8 string takes a .76 or higher gauge (.80 is more to my tastes)...


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 11, 2019)

bmth4111 said:


> Wow that's wild. So no issues with tremolo picking/fast picking. Or issues with the strings moving around during fast picking?



Nope.  And I play shit similar to Fear Factory and Iced Earth.

And speaking of Fear Factory, Dino Cazares uses a 10 - 56 string set... in A. And for tuning his 8 string to F#, he adds a 64.


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## BIG ND SWEATY (Feb 11, 2019)

A .70 is fine for F#. Its loose but not unbearable and you start losing tone and definition with anything bigger on a 25.5 scale.


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## bmth4111 (Feb 12, 2019)

I use GCGCFAD tuning. I'm just confused on how he uses such a low tuning on a standard scale work with intricate picking patterns and still have good low note definition. While I'm having issues w a higher tuning and loose strings.


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## Lorcan Ward (Feb 12, 2019)

Check out the NAMM videos of Jason Richardson using a 58 for a low G. That makes a 70 in F# sharp tight in comparison.


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## Nlelith (Feb 12, 2019)

Lorcan Ward said:


> Check out the NAMM videos of Jason Richardson using a 58 for a low G. That makes a 70 in F# sharp tight in comparison.


Yep, good example. I saw a guitar teacher use a 52 for A for some aggressive riffing, without notes going sharp whatsoever. He explains this is just a good picking technique: striking a string _fast and precise_ (as opposed to *hard*) is the key, with the very tip of the pick. Like striking a match. Speed and precision result in good attack/tone, and trying to dig in the string hard only slows you down/gets notes sharp. Note that some great players describe this same thing as "picking very hard and aggressive", so it might be misunderstood by others.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Feb 12, 2019)

Nlelith said:


> Yep, good example. I saw a guitar teacher use a 52 for A for some aggressive riffing, without notes going sharp whatsoever. He explains this is just a good picking technique: striking a string _fast and precise_ (as opposed to *hard*) is the key, with the very tip of the pick. Like striking a match. Speed and precision result in good attack/tone, and trying to dig in the string hard only slows you down/gets notes sharp. Note that some great players describe this same thing as "picking very hard and aggressive", so it might be misunderstood by others.


So...JR is a soft-picker.  That boy probably picks his nose harder than he picks his strings.


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## sakeido (Feb 12, 2019)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Not even remotely going to work, kid. You want a low F# on a standard scale? You'll easily need 90-100 string gauge.



 if you have an absolutely godawful picking technique, yeah sure. If you actually learn to play, no. I am legit laughing at "needing" a 100 gauge string. It is kinda ridiculous to post something like that in a thread about Marc Okubo, who has been a beast mode guitar player for the last 10+ years and is doing just fine with a 30% skinnier string 



> At that point, it won't even intonate correctly and will sound like total shit.


Both aren't true. It does sound different but it doesn't sound like shit.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Feb 12, 2019)

sakeido said:


> if you have an absolutely godawful picking technique, yeah sure. If you actually learn to play, no. I am legit laughing at "needing" a 100 gauge string. It is kinda ridiculous to post something like that in a thread about Marc Okubo, who has been a beast mode guitar player for the last 10+ years and is doing just fine with a 30% skinnier string


Shorter scale lengths require thicker strings. Longer scale length also require thicker strings (which is the inverse of what people tend to naturally think). I'm pretty sure that Okubo has upped his string gauges since last anyone checked though.



sakeido said:


> Both aren't true. It does sound different but it doesn't sound like shit.


So, I'm guessing that Tormund Giantsbane doesn't like giant strings?


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 12, 2019)

We can't fight physics, so we might as well learn to play better. 

Longer scales mean longer string runs which means more material which means more elasticity. Same with bigger strings on shorter scales, depending on how the string is constructed. Which is also why some strings feel tighter, so while at rest the tension is the same, they are less elastic and thus feel stiffer when played. 

Tension and perceived tension are two different things, and while the actual at-rest tension is much easier to look for, and type into various online calculators, it's the perceived that matters the most and takes some real trial and error to work on. 

Find a reasonable gauge that sounds good, and then go about getting your technique where you want it to be so you can play it.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 12, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Find a reasonable gauge that sounds good, and then go about getting your technique where you want it to be so you can play it.



Yuuuup.

I used to use thick AF strings. But then I found I preferred the sound and flexibility of thinner strings. Made bends and vibrato sound and play like butta. I had to really adjust my style, but it was worth it in the end.


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## sakeido (Feb 12, 2019)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Shorter scale lengths require thicker strings. Longer scale length also require thicker strings (which is the inverse of what people tend to naturally think). I'm pretty sure that Okubo has upped his string gauges since last anyone checked though.


He played relatively slinky strings back in the day too. You can outplay any strings on any scale length; you gotta dial it back at some point and use only the bare minimum of power you need to sound the note without spanking it sharp or making it sound gross in some other way. If you are playing mach stupid like Marc tends to, you don't even really have the option of playing super hard. You'll gas out by the end of the song if you are trying to throw a ton of impact into every note.



> So, I'm guessing that Tormund Giantsbane doesn't like giant strings?


I've got about 20 Elixir 68s in my desk drawer that have been sitting there since 2008, so I'd go with a "yes"


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## Emperor Guillotine (Feb 12, 2019)

sakeido said:


> If you are playing mach stupid like Marc tends to, you don't even really have the option of playing super hard. You'll gas out by the end of the song if you are trying to throw a ton of impact into every note.


This. ^ This right here is the truth of it all. Gotta learn to relax while playing.


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## penguin_316 (Feb 12, 2019)

A .74 is plenty for F# on a 25.5” scale, it might be better going a bit lighter. It will also intonate decently, I’d use a .72 or .70 if I was going to do it again.

Please stop telling people they need 20lbs of tension on a string for it to sound right. That’s the most absurd thing I keep hearing tossed around on this forum.

The other bullshit thing I keep hearing is...as you increase scale length you MUST go up in gauge. This is also not true, I usually keep similar gauges as standard scale and have played baritones and multiscale for about 20 years. 

With longer scale lengths you can get more tension from lighter strings, so use whatever gauge sounds best. Probably the lightest gauge for the tuning at hand. Remember no matter how low you tune, the goal is still to sound like a guitar not a muffled bass.


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## Nlelith (Feb 12, 2019)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> So...JR is a soft-picker.


That's an awfully wrong conclusion to make from my post. See, that's the kind of misunderstanding I'm talking about. Yes, good picking technique looks super aggressive/hard, but in it's core lies precision and speed. Doesn't matter what words we use to describe good technique, capable players seem to have no problems with riffs on their lighter gauges/scales.


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## Masoo2 (Feb 12, 2019)

I'll never understand this forum's fixation with huge string gauges

I use a super thick pick (Huf), pick super hard, and have had no issues with using gauges like 56s for A-G or 74s for F#-Eb on my 27 inch 8 string

Ideally I'd rather the scale length be longer, but even then I'd likely use the same gauges if not move down a little to a 54 and 72


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 12, 2019)

Oh boy... Another tension argument...


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## penguin_316 (Feb 12, 2019)

I used to torture myself in my old band, we both played in drop A with 0.70s on our baritones with 28” scale length. (20.94lbs tension and I’m pretty sure the rest of the strings had higher tension like 23+ lbs each) 

I literally had to “work out” to be able to play the instrument when we first started going dual baritone.

It sounded fucking huge no doubt....I only wish for my hands sake and my ears, that we used much lighter gauges for such long sets. We had to go to great lengths to dial out mud with our gear and EQs, but it was all unnecessary. Just use lighter strings ffs...


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