# Djent - that is not metal (blog entry of a 58 year old satirical metal elitist)



## KristapsCoCoo (Jan 21, 2015)

Bumped onto this one:

THAT'S NOT METAL: "DJENT"

Not sure if it's meant to be taken seriously, but it's at least a little bit funny I guess.

It actually blows my mind a little bit that such an old metal heads exist, haha.

Do you think that there will someday be a new thing/trend that many older fans of heavy music will hate like many hate the current ones?


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## nikolazjalic (Jan 21, 2015)

lol


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## bostjan (Jan 21, 2015)

KristapsCoCoo said:


> Do you think that there will someday be a new thing/trend that many older fans of heavy music will hate like many hate the current ones?



Do you think that someday there will be a pope who is catholic? Haha.


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## GiveUpGuitar (Jan 21, 2015)

KristapsCoCoo said:


> Do you think that there will someday be a new thing/trend that many older fans of heavy music will hate like many hate the current ones?



Tosin Abasi confirmed, djent is actually the last level of music. All the notes have been used up. Credits are about to roll. A lot of people in the theater look pissed.

Seriously tho, this article was pretty funny. Never in a blog have I read the phrase "Shit spicy indian food into my infected back zits."


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## xzacx (Jan 21, 2015)

I thought this was funny, because I mostly agree.


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 21, 2015)

Old Guy Who Can't Count Beyond Four Doesn't Get Music With Odd Rhythms should have been the title of this article. If he's serious, he's a moron.


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## lemeker (Jan 21, 2015)

This reminds me of the video that the dude from Cattle Decap did about one man computer bands, while he himself is writing on a computer. 

I'd like to know exactly what contributions this blowhard has made to the metal community.

.....ahhhh opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.....


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## Der JD (Jan 21, 2015)

Somewhat amusing, but I really don't see the point. I'm not really a "djent" fan and I can't say that I really have ever enjoyed any of the bands mentioned in this blog when I've heard them. But...I still feel that "djent" is metal. I've never understood why metal fans have to be so snobbish and elitist. Every few years there's a new sub-genre, usually spawned by younger fans, that gets shunned by the metal aristocracy. Glam, nu-metal, metalcore, djent...happens over and over. My 16 year old son (I'm 39) likes djent and I'm more than happy with that. WAY better than the vast majority of absolute crap that most kids his age listen to. Plus, it's been a gateway that has led him to a lot of other forms of metal, rock, prog, and even a bit of jazz. 

Now if this blog had been about rap, "bro-country", or modern pop I'd be fully on board.


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## RV350ALSCYTHE (Jan 21, 2015)

All of Djent summed up in a single photograph.* (Power-level immeasurable.)*


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## DarkWolfXV (Jan 21, 2015)

Djent, deathcore and metalcore are for most part not metal, because they lack metal riffs. Althogh I enjoy all those genres, they are not metal. You can't tell me that Emmure is metal, as much as I like them, when they mostly chug tritones, sometimes there's a djenty riff, sometimes a hardcore riff, sometimes dissonant chords ala TDEP, and the only trace of death metal there is the very rare blast beat and the harsh vocals. And that's all it is. Those three genres are just vaguely metal influenced subgenres of hardcore. Not metal. It's stupid that people get upset over bands that they call "fake metal" and "posers" while those bands never really tried to be metal, at all.


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## OmegaSlayer (Jan 21, 2015)

I'm 36 and I lived the grudge movement as a serious threat.
I'm much more open minded now and I divided music in good music (the one written genuinely for passion) and bad music (the one written to sell), in music I like and music I don't like.

I say this...
Nu-metal is not metal
Metalcore is more metal than loads of things but has vocals that are shameful
Djent is heavy for sure but not prog
Prodigy is much heavier and metal than Stratovarius
I love Roxette, Duran Duran and Tears For Fears


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## RustInPeace (Jan 21, 2015)

Elitist dickhead being an elitist dickhead.


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## KFW (Jan 21, 2015)

I didn't read the whole thing, but if you scroll to the bottom you see this:



> Did that lift you and your metal spirits? Too bad, it was a joke. You're a ....ing poseur if you're not me.



I admit it's a good idea to get people to your blog.


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## Aion (Jan 21, 2015)

That article is a thing of beauty. Laughed the entire time.


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## Thorerges (Jan 21, 2015)

*"Being 58 years old instead of actually 27, I've seen a lot of shitty sub-metal trends in my day. When glam rockers were pucker facing us square in our aching elitist prostates back in the glory days of hating everything, we didn't really think it could get any worse. I mean, it seemed downright ....ing impossible. "*

HILARIOUS. This dude is epic. I do like some djent bands, but he's so ridiculously satirical it doesn't matter.


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## Wildebeest (Jan 21, 2015)

"_*My girlfriend broke up with me and I'm conveying my feelings by singing about space."*_


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## will_shred (Jan 21, 2015)

> The only reason I'm even using this ....ing internet crap is because Pagan Altar released a new album back in 2004 and I had to go Google how to steal it.



What an asshat.


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## troyguitar (Jan 21, 2015)

KristapsCoCoo said:


> Do you think that there will someday be a new thing/trend that many older fans of heavy music will hate like many hate the current ones?



That day has been here since the early 80's when metal diverged into 3 basic categories: happy (hair/shred), sad (doom/sabbath), and angry (black/death/whatever).

Most fans only like at most 2 of the 3 main categories.


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## KristapsCoCoo (Jan 21, 2015)

I actually am starting to think that a lot of music should not be called metal or hardcore or whatever, but just heavy music or smthng. It feels like a lot of modern heavy music have roots in older genres, but there's a ton of bands that are heavy as fvck, but it just doesn't feel fully right to call them metal per se.
The term 'metal music' seems to be outdated for me...

It really seems that Tosin Abasi is true and djent could actually be pretty close to the last level of music. AT LEAST in heavy music...

And anyhow it would save up so much time for everyone(specialy for older/elitist/troll/trve people) if all 'non trve' stuff would be called just 'heavy music', haha.


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## Veldar (Jan 21, 2015)

KristapsCoCoo said:


> It really seems that Tosin Abasi is true and djent could actually be pretty close to the last level of music. AT LEAST in heavy music..



Nah so much unique music could be created that sounds different but people always want something fimiliar.


_Posted from Sevenstring.org App for Android_


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## Augmatted (Jan 21, 2015)

> Every djent band that has ever rose to fame, owes literally every microcosmic iota of how shitty they sound to Meshuggah for that single, stupid ....ing riff. That repetitive, simple, down-tuned, palm-muted sound of a handicapped duck taking an angry shit that is the core of every djent band's bullshit effort at producing music. In this sense, Meshuggah are pioneers; much in the same way that ape ....ers are the pioneers of AIDS.


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## DXL (Jan 21, 2015)

Veldar said:


> Nah so much unique music could be created that sounds different but people always want something fimiliar.
> 
> 
> _Posted from Sevenstring.org App for Android_



I still want to see someone really expand on what Pelican did on their What We All Come to Need album. It was like sludge/post metal, but a lot happier and uplifting. Usually post rock doesn't have that sludge feel that this album does and post metal is usually either very dark sounding or just really progressive and atmospheric like in the case of Isis, but still lacking that "happiness".



EDIT

One song off of Avatar's latest album reminds me of this sort of (especially during the chorus)


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## Bloody_Inferno (Jan 21, 2015)

> So now presenting the worst thing that you've ever heard:
> 
> [Hacktivist clip]


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## blaaargh (Jan 21, 2015)

Der JD said:


> Now if this blog had been about rap, "bro-country", or modern pop I'd be fully on board.



Hey man rap is the shit. I'd listen to rap over djent any day even Lil Wayne (srs) Fireman was my jam in middle school


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## Grindspine (Jan 21, 2015)

After the first paragraph, I pretty much skimmed the pile of rubbish writing to fortunately land on this gem:



> What djerks write about in their lyrics:
> 
> Genesis
> Regenesis
> ...


 
Mention of Phil Collins in a rant about djent = win.
10/10 would skim again.


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## Alex Kenivel (Jan 21, 2015)

As long as _x_ exists, there will always be _x_ haters, but this was hilarious


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## Casper777 (Jan 22, 2015)

That was incredibly funny.... And incredibly true!!!

Even if I really like some of the bands mentionned it was really fun te read!


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## DLG (Jan 22, 2015)

article was hilarious and mostly accurate


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## chassless (Jan 22, 2015)

article was pretty funny. some stuff seem accurate, some less. but



> The point is that djent's _main riff,_ it's defining characteristic, it's very namesake is a playing method that is boring, simple, monotonous, and now *painfully overplayed.*


and



> Doom metal is already better than everything


(as a fan of both genres) i think that man can NOT be serious


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## Don Vito (Jan 22, 2015)

blaaargh said:


> Hey man rap is the shit. I'd listen to rap over djent any day even Lil Wayne (srs) Fireman was my jam in middle school


Yeah me too, but idk if I would listen to it now. I think Carter 3 killed my love for rap music because I only remember there being like 2 bangers and the rest was ehhhhhhhh. Thanks for the nostalgia though. I used to come home and throw on 106 and park just to hear whatever new Jeezy or Chamilionare song was playing. Then I'd go buy it off iTunes and be like the ....in' MAN on the schoolbus. Everyone else was trying to keep up with their Usher jams from 04. Why can't I be this cool now? I just can't stand rap music anymore. I feel dumb listening to it, even though I like the beats.


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## ShiftKey (Jan 22, 2015)

That was a hilarious page to read with my morning coffee, cheers for sharing it, shame I cant rep you.


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## HANIAK (Jan 22, 2015)

That was actually pretty hilarious!!


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## wildrat666 (Jan 22, 2015)

I laughed. it was this day funniest moment


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## blaaargh (Jan 22, 2015)

Don Vito said:


> Yeah me too, but idk if I would listen to it now. I think Carter 3 killed my love for rap music because I only remember there being like 2 bangers and the rest was ehhhhhhhh. Thanks for the nostalgia though. I used to come home and throw on 106 and park just to hear whatever new Jeezy or Chamilionare song was playing. Then I'd go buy it off iTunes and be like the ....in' MAN on the schoolbus. Everyone else was trying to keep up with their Usher jams from 04. Why can't I be this cool now? I just can't stand rap music anymore. I feel dumb listening to it, even though I like the beats.



Yeah Weezy reaaally went downhill. Idk man I like a lot of really dumb rap like 2 Chainz and shit but I get why a lot of ppl dont. If ur looking for some really good new shit I'd say check out Run the Jewels, Kendrick/Schoolboy/TDE or The Underachievers - ultimate "alt white person hip hop mix"


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## musicaldeath (Jan 22, 2015)

This guy won the internet:

"That's right, internet. From this day forward I am stripping you dweebs of the self-appointed term "djentlemen" and instead, replacing it with the term "djerk". Because you suck and you need a title that properly conveys that. I have spoken."

Hilarious read.


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## hairychris (Jan 22, 2015)

troyguitar said:


> That day has been here since the early 80's when metal diverged into 3 basic categories: happy (hair/shred), sad (doom/sabbath), and angry (black/death/whatever).
> 
> Most fans only like at most 2 of the 3 main categories.



Incorrect. It started when Black Sabbath fans took the piss out of Led Zep fans for being flowery wankers, and LZ fans castigated BS fans for not washing.

This might not be entirely true but there has always been a divide. So I agree...

Having been a metalhead since 1986 or so, and having lived through these tides on a regular basis (thrash, grunge, death metal, nu-metal, metalcore, etc), I can say the following things with a certain degree of certainty:

- "Djent" will grow until the market for it saturates.
- By this point the big bands are playing fancy tours, and the local scenes will be full of guys/girls trying to sound like them.
- Some form of metal that is the complete opposite will all of a sudden be what the younger kids listen to. I would take a guess at it being a lot less tech... 
- A few bands will manage to carry on, the majority will implode as the market drops.
- 5 years from now most folks will not admit that they ever djented.
- 10 years from now they'll admit that they did, and also admit apart from a few classics most of what came out of the genre was rubbish.

Music goes in both generations and cycles. A generation lasts a few years, and is over when the next bunch of kids goes through school. The cycles are more interesting in that current fashions (musical and otherwise) will rip stuff from a few generations back... eg a resurgence in prog (a la djent).

Although the article is hugely sarcastic he's actually pretty much on the money! And if you take an article like that as an insult, well, puberty really helps!  



Edit: OP, I'm 42. I know older people than me in the scene. I've been to gigs where I've seen 3 generations of families there. The metalhead friends of mine that have kids are also passing it down to the younger generation.


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## wannabguitarist (Jan 22, 2015)

Don Vito said:


> Yeah me too, but idk if I would listen to it now. I think Carter 3 killed my love for rap music because I only remember there being like 2 bangers and the rest was ehhhhhhhh. Thanks for the nostalgia though. I used to come home and throw on 106 and park just to hear whatever new Jeezy or Chamilionare song was playing. Then I'd go buy it off iTunes and be like the ....in' MAN on the schoolbus. Everyone else was trying to keep up with their Usher jams from 04. Why can't I be this cool now? I just can't stand rap music anymore. I feel dumb listening to it, even though I like the beats.



Check out Blue Scholars


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## KFW (Jan 22, 2015)

It's interesting to have seen basically a new genre emerge, and start it's decline in popularity. I think the good bands will obviously stick around (Periphery, Animals As Leaders). But I always wonder what will come up next. Especially now that home recording is a wide spread thing. Djent kind of came about the exact same time that home recording technology allowed it to. 

It's interesting to think about in general. You can pretty much attribute genre cycles to mass media when it comes to everything before 2004 or so. People only heard what was on the radio, MTV, etc. I reckon things moved much slower at that point. Can someone release something so innovative and impressive that it sparks a whole new genre again? I think it would be extremely ignorant to assume that can't happen again, but it's just an interesting thought.

I brought up this question to my girlfriend in during a boring 12 hour car trip: do you think a person during the 1500's ever imagined a super dope rap beat in their head? Or consider if someone in the 1970's imagined a djent song.


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## Don Vito (Jan 22, 2015)

blaaargh said:


> Yeah Weezy reaaally went downhill. Idk man I like a lot of really dumb rap like 2 Chainz and shit but I get why a lot of ppl dont. If ur looking for some really good new shit I'd say check out Run the Jewels, Kendrick/Schoolboy/TDE or The Underachievers - ultimate "alt white person hip hop mix"


Lol, maybe I am an alt white hip hop fan since I got excited over an outkast vinyl today. I don't listen to vinyl, but the thought is what scares me. 

I wanted to like 2 chainz during my ingo wiz khalifa/waka phase, but I felt he would never live up to that one nicki manaj song.


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## bulb (Jan 22, 2015)

I appreciate the attention and discussion. It would be sweet to meet this guy in person someday and chat over some single malt.


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## Aceshighhhh (Jan 22, 2015)

He sounds frustrated


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## Discoqueen (Jan 22, 2015)

So many gems in there! "I've got some wood you can chug on." Too great!


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## Drew (Jan 22, 2015)

OmegaSlayer said:


> Djent is heavy for sure but not prog



This is the thing I don't get - when did it become cool for djent bands to start calling themselves "prog"?


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## Captain Butterscotch (Jan 22, 2015)

Drew said:


> This is the thing I don't get - when did it become cool for djent bands to start calling themselves "prog"?



I thought they always had, but I'm not entirely sure. It's similar to the late 90's early 00's when it was a mortal sin to call out an "emo" band or the late 10's when you might get mobbed if you called a scene kid "scene". No one ever really wants to admit they're part of a trend. We're all snowflakes, every one.


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## Aion (Jan 22, 2015)

Drew said:


> This is the thing I don't get - when did it become cool for djent bands to start calling themselves "prog"?



Okay, due to a lack of having the best words for this, I'm totally about to sound like the djent version of the dubstep guy in this comic: Explosm.net - Home of Cyanide and Happiness

If you look at the original djent bands who kind of defined the scene you have bands that were very much based in Meshuggah-style rhythmic insanity. A lot of polyrhythm and polymeter. In fact, I remember when there was a whole bunch of people saying, "it's not 'djent,' djent isn't a real thing, it's just progressive metal!." However, as djent peaked, former/current metalcore bands started going for a heavier, djentier (if you'll excuse the djerkish term) sound. So now what you have is a lot of bands who don't have nearly the same type of rhythmic complexity, but have retained the percussive, palm-muted tone. It's very similar to what happen to prog in the late 70's. There was a sound that became associated with the term that was divorced from the "real," definition. Back then it was really lush, symphonic rock music, now it's the four note power chord. So now, ever kid who has an Axe-FX thinks they are being sup3r pr0g br00t4l, when really they have just made their metalcore/deathcore a little more percussive. And so they call themselves prog now. Of course, it didn't help that a few years ago if you called your band a "djent band," you would be told that really it was all just progressive metal. Now it's just that djent has swung from prog closer to metalcore/deathcore. And the whole not wanting to be seen as trendy obviously plays its own role.


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## gunch (Jan 23, 2015)

I like how he shits all over mathcore, made me 10/10 mad


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## 7stg (Jan 23, 2015)

I laughed. He has some points. I've thought about the correlation of djent and dubstep myself.


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## Dommak89 (Jan 23, 2015)

DarkWolfXV said:


> Djent, deathcore and metalcore are for most part not metal, because they lack metal riffs. Althogh I enjoy all those genres, they are not metal. You can't tell me that Emmure is metal, as much as I like them, when they mostly chug tritones, sometimes there's a djenty riff, sometimes a hardcore riff, sometimes dissonant chords ala TDEP, and the only trace of death metal there is the very rare blast beat and the harsh vocals. And that's all it is. Those three genres are just vaguely metal influenced subgenres of hardcore. Not metal. It's stupid that people get upset over bands that they call "fake metal" and "posers" while those bands never really tried to be metal, at all.



May I ask, and that is a serious question and not to bash or anything, what you believe is a metal riff? I mean if I compare thrash metal riffs with some death metal riffs (i.e. early Metallica with Cryptopsy) I don't find too many riffs in common, yet still both are considered metal. Are they not?


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## JulianEmdon (Jan 23, 2015)

Come on this is hilarious!
"..the sound of a furious mallard ruining his back end and quacking out in agony as he rips a vicious dump right into a shallow pond."


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## Demiurge (Jan 23, 2015)

7stg said:


> I've thought about the correlation of djent and dubstep myself.



That was a good point; in fact, IRL I refer to djent as "chugstep" because saying djent out loud just feels weird.


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## Drew (Jan 24, 2015)

Captain Butterscotch said:


> I thought they always had, but I'm not entirely sure. It's similar to the late 90's early 00's when it was a mortal sin to call out an "emo" band or the late 10's when you might get mobbed if you called a scene kid "scene". No one ever really wants to admit they're part of a trend. We're all snowflakes, every one.



No, within the last six months or so the djent spam we've been getting over at metalguitarist.org stopped calling itself djent and started calling itself prog. 

Ironically, Periphery has been moving in more of a prog direction with their last two albums, so maybe all the shitty djent "bands" ripping them off will actually be practicing Dream Theater riffs in a couple years.


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## Narian (Jan 24, 2015)

DarkWolfXV said:


> Djent, deathcore and metalcore are for most part not metal, because they lack metal riffs.



You'll need to give a definition of a "metal riff"


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## DarkWolfXV (Jan 24, 2015)

Narian said:


> You'll need to give a definition of a "metal riff"





Dommak89 said:


> May I ask, and that is a serious question and not to bash or anything, what you believe is a metal riff? I mean if I compare thrash metal riffs with some death metal riffs (i.e. early Metallica with Cryptopsy) I don't find too many riffs in common, yet still both are considered metal. Are they not?



Yes, they're both metal. To understand this better, first, let's see what a riff is, in general. According to the wikipedia, "riff refers to a brief, relaxed phrase repeated over changing melodies. It may serve as a refrain or melodic figure, often played by the rhythm section instruments or solo instruments that form the basis or accompaniment of a musical composition."

Heavy metal music - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
^ and, a heavy metal riff, according to this article is usually "created with three main harmonic traits: modal scale progressions, tritone and chromatic progressions, and the use of pedal points." You can see what they mean if you listen to the famous "Painkiller" by Judas Priest (which is a great example of a traditional heavy metal song, with all the elements of heavy metal present)


Thrash metal goes further, it usually takes riffs similar to ones in 0:45 and 1:41 and ups the speed, complexity and extremity a notch higher. Often forgoing more melodic scales for the chromatic scale. Case in this point, Slayer, which are famous for their fast "palm muted tremolo + a few power chords" riffs.


Death metal takes thrash metal and makes it even harsher and more extreme. The more obvious melodies, if any, are played using tremolo, and the riffs stick to the chromatic scale almost exclusively.


Metallica and Cryptopsy seem to have little in common, but when you look at it, through a quite long and complex evolutionary road, Cryptopsy is doing what early Metallica is doing, but in a much more sophisticated, extreme, and harsh manner.

*TL;DR 1:* Metal riffs are highly based on melody (which is a linear succession of musical tones that the listener perceives as a single entity, therefore, even death metal and it's chromatic riffs are pretty melodic) and are melodically complex.

And -core riffs, are not.



There is no single metal riff in this song. It's all melodically simple chugs (with one note tremolos supporting them), and all those "riffs" are rhythm based. The main element of -core music - the breakdown, is a rhythmically complex, amelodic pattern. It's not metal, it's hardcore music with metal influences. (Big fan of Suicide Silence here by the way, not bashing them or -core genres, I just want to make a distinction)

so

*TL;DR 2:* I'm shit at explaining things, ask the people at Metal Archives, just be polite.


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## 3074326 (Jan 24, 2015)

The amount of energy people spend on hating what others like is fascinating. Periphery is really the only "djent" band I listen to. Other than them, it's not for me. But I don't see the point in spending my time trying to convince other people my opinion is best. 

Must suck being a miserable .....


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## lucasreis (Jan 24, 2015)

Demiurge said:


> That was a good point; in fact, IRL I refer to djent as "chugstep" because saying djent out loud just feels weird.



http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zpi0w3wPE3M

Chugstep exists!


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## JustMac (Jan 24, 2015)

When he was talking about Djent:







When he mentioned Mathcore


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## octatoan (Jan 25, 2015)

Augmatted said:


> > Every djent band that has ever rose to fame, owes literally every microcosmic iota of how shitty they sound to Meshuggah for that single, stupid ....ing riff. That repetitive, simple, down-tuned, palm-muted sound of a handicapped duck taking an angry shit that is the core of every djent band's bullshit effort at producing music. In this sense, Meshuggah are pioneers; much in the same way that ape ....ers are the pioneers of AIDS.



I seem to recall a Radiolab episode that said that some hunter accidentally nicked his finger while skinning an ape.

To lead you to an overwhelming question, did Misha, Tosin and friends collaboratively peel Thordendal's skin off a few years back?


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## FILTHnFEAR (Jan 25, 2015)

"Do you know what I learned in math class? How to jerk off in secret. *.... math.*"

I lost it right here.


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## Viginez (Jan 25, 2015)

i think it's this guy


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## Splenetic (Jan 25, 2015)

RV350ALSCYTHE said:


> All of Djent summed up in a single photograph.* (Power-level immeasurable.)*



.... me, he looks like he literally just walked off the set of mid 90's Stargate SG-1.


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## starslight (Jan 25, 2015)

AAL for Babylon 5 house band.


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## Aion (Jan 25, 2015)

DarkWolfXV said:


> To understand this better, first, let's see what a riff is, in general. According to the wikipedia, "riff refers to a brief, relaxed phrase repeated over changing melodies. It may serve as a refrain or melodic figure, often played by the rhythm section instruments or solo instruments that form the basis or accompaniment of a musical composition."
> 
> Heavy metal music - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> ^ and, a heavy metal riff, according to this article is usually "created with three main harmonic traits: modal scale progressions, tritone and chromatic progressions, and the use of pedal points."



If I may, I'd like to reject your premise, not only for ideological reasons, but for logical ones as well. First of all, when it's this vague, modal and tritone/chromatic progressions are useless phrases when used in conjunction. So it's either a chord progression based off of the primary 28 western modes, or it's based off of chromaticism which quite literally includes every other chord/mode. So right now we've established a metal riff either sticks to a scale, or it doesn't.

Then there's "use of pedal point." While most of your heavier bands do love their pedal points, not every riff does. Some riffs change constantly to follow the chord progression (though they may move the notes of the riff around to allow for as little movement in range as possible). Take this wankery for example: 



Now, my personal feelings for Yngwie (mostly boredom) aside, he's definitely playing metal but there are no pedal points (that I caught, someone please correct me if I'm wrong). The closest he gets is when the harmonic rhythm stretches so he can repeat a phrase.

So at this point, we have established that the riff will follow a chord progression either and pedal points will be used except when they're not. Hate to break it to you, but that's a really weak definition.

And what about bands that just play power chords with no melodic elements to them. You can often find power metal bands doing this. There's no real riff happening, just power chords played in constant eighth or sixteenth notes that follow the chord progression. But those songs are still metal. Because something being metal or not metal is more than just having a riff or not having a riff. There's a bunch of traits, and not every band has all of them. Not only that, sometimes new traits develop over time so older bands who once would have been identified as a genre no longer fit that. Personally I think Led Zeppelin is not a metal band, though they do have some metal moments. I consider them proto-metal, very influential to metal, but ultimately not metal themselves. Same thing with Cream and Jimi Hendrix. One of the developments in metal that was huge was the development of the breakdown. Most djent bands are taking the idea of breakdowns and bending and twisting it to work as ideas for verses, choruses, bridges, etc. So there may not be a metal riff, but there's a very metal breakdown. 

Finally, let's just take your definition in a slightly looser interpretation. That all a riff needs to be considered metal is one of those three traits. Well, I hate to break it to you, but djent and -core bands pretty much do nothing but play pedal points. So even in a slightly loosened up version of your definition, they still fit. I won't tell you that you have to consider djent bands or -core bands to be metal, you can define them however you want. But your current modal is logically inconsistent and requires some rethinking.


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## Splenetic (Jan 25, 2015)

starslight said:


> AAL for Babylon 5 house band.




B5 HELLS YEAH!


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## Miek (Jan 25, 2015)

unbelievably tedious


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## DarkWolfXV (Jan 25, 2015)

Aion said:


> I won't tell you that you have to consider djent bands or -core bands to be metal, you can define them however you want. But your current modal is logically inconsistent and requires some rethinking.



I guess. For personal purposes, I just developed an ear for metal riffs, as stupid as it sounds, and could tell you which riff is metal or not but could not tell you _why_ and the theory under it. With the previous post I kind of tried to explain it with theory, but I'm not great at that either, so that's why I said


> *TL;DR 2:* I'm shit at explaining things, ask the people at Metal Archives


as they can put it into words better than me.

But

Have you read my whole post though? I get the impression you only read the thing in quotes. I agree that Led Zeppelin is not a metal band, but they do have some metal movements. And regarding "breakdowns", in my book, metal/death -core and djent breakdowns are absolutely not metal. Metal bands do use breakdowns sometimes too, but in a different manner, such as:

2:22

The Heavy Part: Slowdowns, Slams, and Breakdowns
^ as this article explains, this would be "the slowdown". It's still a breakdown, but when most people say "breakdown", they mean the deathcore breakdown ala the last one in "No Pity For A Coward"

2:22

The "metal" breakdowns, a.k.a "the slowdown" and "the slam" retain some degree of melodic complexity, while the "-core" breakdown, "the breakdown", is a rhythmically complex, amelodic figure, which in itself is not metal, but is seldom used by bands which are metal.


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## bhakan (Jan 25, 2015)

So then are Meshuggah metal? The average Meshuggah riff is absolutely "a rhythmically complex, amelodic figure." By your definition, Meshuggah are absolutely not metal, which I think a lot of people would contest, as they definitely are not hardcore or any punk derivative. You can hear from their earliest music that they evolved from thrash metal.

Obviously you're entitled to not like metalcore/deathcore/djent, but in my opinion they are just as much metal as they are hardcore. It seems to me that a lot of people just want to say that they're not metal because they don't want bands they don't like associated with the bands they do.


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## Aion (Jan 25, 2015)

DarkWolfXV said:


> I guess. For personal purposes, I just developed an ear for metal riffs, as stupid as it sounds, and could tell you which riff is metal or not but could not tell you _why_ and the theory under it.
> 
> Have you read my whole post though? I get the impression you only read the thing in quotes... And regarding "breakdowns", in my book, metal/death -core and djent breakdowns are absolutely not metal. Metal bands do use breakdowns sometimes too, but in a different manner, such as:
> 
> ...




I read everything you said, I just quoted the relevant part rather than the whole big post. Kind of like what I did just now 

And you didn't really address anything I said. I understand that you might not have the technical theory knowledge to explain yourself properly, and that does put you at as a disadvantage since the only centers of my brain that have retained any usefulness are he ones that either deal with music or arguing minutia on the internet.

There's one thing that I think has been nearly entirely glossed over so far. Timbre. There are a number of different timbres I associate with metal. Speaking generally, high distortion, palm-muting, and dropped tuning/downtuning are all relatively common for guitar. There's the very clickly kick drum sound. Bass is usually mixed to be similar to the guitar, often to the point where it becomes difficult to separate the two. Vocals tend to be rougher sounding, in falsetto, screamed, or growled.

Timbre might be the most important element here. If you take away the distortion, I almost never think of it as metal. I have heard, "acoustic metal," that I think pulls it off because it retains most of the other elements, but it's difficult to do. Djent and -core definitely has enough of timberal elements of metal for me to consider it metal.

Honestly, if there's one thing that I take issue with in your definition of what is and is not metal, it's that you've narrowed yourself down to just one thing. Any style of music cannot be defined by one trait or element. While some elements of a style are more important than others, none is completely and 100% necessary. Music evolves and chages. If you look at some sonatas written now, the link between them and sonatas in the late 18th century is nearly impossible to see because there's over 200 years of development that occurred. On a shorter time frame, you take a 12 bar blues from the late 1800's and then a 12 bar blues with Parker changes just 50 or so years later, you'd be hard pressed to clearly hear the connection. Let's just say metal started in 1970 with Black Sabbath, maybe you want to use a different band, fine, it'll just end up being a few years difference, but 1970 is good enough for this discussion. 1970 was 45 years ago dude. What makes a song "metal," or not has changed a lot since then. It's very natural to want to have one thing that you can point to and say, "that's the _one_ thing that determines whether or not something is metal." But to keep that up it requires one to divorce the definition of reality and to ignore the effect of change upon art. The metal riff is important, don't get me wrong, but it's not the one thing, it's just one of many.


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## Miek (Jan 25, 2015)

lol this is unbelievable


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## DarkWolfXV (Jan 25, 2015)

bhakan said:


> So then are Meshuggah metal? The average Meshuggah riff is absolutely "a rhythmically complex, amelodic figure." By your definition, Meshuggah are absolutely not metal, which I think a lot of people would contest, as they definitely are not hardcore or any punk derivative. You can hear from their earliest music that they evolved from thrash metal.
> 
> Obviously you're entitled to not like metalcore/deathcore/djent, but in my opinion they are just as much metal as they are hardcore. It seems to me that a lot of people just want to say that they're not metal because they don't want bands they don't like associated with the bands they do.



They're absolutely not. The only metal album they have is "Contradictions Collapse" (and probably, the demos which I've heard that sound kind of like Metallica) because it's thrash metal. The only reason they're on Metal Archives is that album. They're playing djent nowadays, you might think it's not derivative from hardcore, but all they're doing is playing the hardcore breakdown at very complex rhythms with an occasional jazzy solo. There is almost no "metal riffing" in their music, therefore, they are not metal. No metal riffs, not metal.

And, as I've said previously, I love metalcore, deathcore and djent. In fact, my second favorite band is Emmure. It's true though that I don't want those bands to be called metal, because they are not (at least the vast majority of them). A distinction must be made to keep the -core out of metal, and keep the metal out of -core.


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## DarkWolfXV (Jan 25, 2015)

Aion said:


> And you didn't really address anything I said. I understand that you might not have the technical theory knowledge to explain yourself properly, and that does put you at as a disadvantage since the only centers of my brain that have retained any usefulness are he ones that either deal with music or arguing minutia on the internet.


Well, unfortunately, yes, I am at disadvantage, however, I'll still try to get my point across as clearly as I can.



Aion said:


> There's one thing that I think has been nearly entirely glossed over so far. Timbre. There are a number of different timbres I associate with metal. Speaking generally, high distortion, palm-muting, and dropped tuning/downtuning are all relatively common for guitar. There's the very clickly kick drum sound. Bass is usually mixed to be similar to the guitar, often to the point where it becomes difficult to separate the two. Vocals tend to be rougher sounding, in falsetto, screamed, or growled.
> 
> Timbre might be the most important element here. If you take away the distortion, I almost never think of it as metal. I have heard, "acoustic metal," that I think pulls it off because it retains most of the other elements, but it's difficult to do. Djent and -core definitely has enough of timberal elements of metal for me to consider it metal.



As you might've noticed, I separate between "metal" and "hardcore". Both have similar or even the same timbral characteristics, but the melodies, the rhythms, the arrangements, often the lyrical topics and the way lyrics are written are different. Generally, _the way the whole thing is done_ is _different_. Yes, the vocals are indeed harsher, but if you study the techniques that -core vocalists use vs the ones that metal vocalists use, they're different, and the sound is different too. Compare David Vincent to Mitch Lucker, Matti Way to Cameron Argon (Big Chocolate), and Lord Worm to Steve Marois ("metal" ones on the left, "-core" ones on the right, although Steve does use the "metal" death growl, while using the "-core" high screams). Both sides scream, both sides growl, but each one does it differently. -core vocalists generally use fry on highs while metal ones don't, etc, I'm not good with the technical side and the technical terms here either (The core ones use The Zen of Screaming ). The majority of "metal" bands play in standard tunings (as in, D, C, B etc standard, not drop) while "core" ones play in drop tunings. The drummers of "-core" bands and "metal" bands are also different. "-core" drummers play skank beats this way:

H-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-
S--s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-
B-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-

while "metal" bands do it this way:

H-xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
S--s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-
B-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-

essentially playing hi-hats with quarter notes as opposed to eight notes is what -core bands do, see "Unanswered"

similarly with blast beats:

deathcore

H-x---x---x---x---x-
S-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-
B-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o

(constant 8 note snare&bass drum with quarter note hi-hats, again, see Unanswered)

death metal

H-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-
S--s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-
B-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-

(same as in the first "-core" skank beat figure, but played at way higher tempos)

And, -core bands tend to "ride" on a crash or a china, while "metal" bands prefer a hi-hat or a ride cymbal.

Bass guitar mostly follows the guitar and is played with a pick in "-core", while "metal" often has arrangements with higher variety and the bass is played with fingers.

-core genres also tend to be more vocal centric, the lyrical topics more personal rather than impersonal i.e deathcore focusing on anger in the person during murder vs death metal focusing on the act of murder itself (Whore to a Chainsaw vs Babykiller)

Of course, sometimes there are exceptions.



Aion said:


> Honestly, if there's one thing that I take issue with in your definition of what is and is not metal, it's that you've narrowed yourself down to just one thing. Any style of music cannot be defined by one trait or element. While some elements of a style are more important than others, none is completely and 100% necessary. Music evolves and chages. If you look at some sonatas written now, the link between them and sonatas in the late 18th century is nearly impossible to see because there's over 200 years of development that occurred. On a shorter time frame, you take a 12 bar blues from the late 1800's and then a 12 bar blues with Parker changes just 50 or so years later, you'd be hard pressed to clearly hear the connection. Let's just say metal started in 1970 with Black Sabbath, maybe you want to use a different band, fine, it'll just end up being a few years difference, but 1970 is good enough for this discussion. 1970 was 45 years ago dude. What makes a song "metal," or not has changed a lot since then. It's very natural to want to have one thing that you can point to and say, "that's the _one_ thing that determines whether or not something is metal." But to keep that up it requires one to divorce the definition of reality and to ignore the effect of change upon art. The metal riff is important, don't get me wrong, but it's not the one thing, it's just one of many.



Oh yes, I too that "metal" is not just metal riffs. Of course that other elements are important, I was just asked for my definition of "the metal riff" and why I don't consider metalcore, deathcore and djent "metal". However, for music to be metal, there need to be "metal riffs" plus "the other elements".


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## KristapsCoCoo (Jan 26, 2015)

Damn, and I thought I overthink things way too much, haha. 
At the end - it's either heavy or it's not...


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## Metaldestroyerdennis (Jan 26, 2015)

This whole list is pure comedic genius. Regardless of what you take from the rest of the article, respect where respect is due:

Space
Spacial architecture
Spacial architecture in my miiiiind
Galaxies
Planets Colliding
Super novas
Spirituality (but not Christian music cuz that's gay)
Looking within
*Matter
Mind
Mind over Matter
Matter over Mind
Matt and his Mind
Mental artifacts*
Robotics and stuff
Genesis
Regenesis
Parthenogenesis
Palingenesis
Other forms of Genesis that may or may not feature Phil Collins 
The Sky, looking to it, etc.
Some other stuff they learned about watching a TV special about more space
Artifacts
*Space artifacts*
Time
Chemical structure
*Sequences. Whatever sequence. DNA sequence? Some sequence.*
Chemical space structure artifact sequence architects in my miiiind's genesis
*My girlfriend broke up with me and I'm conveying my feelings by singing about space.*


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## lucasreis (Jan 26, 2015)

I don't agree with the notion that Djent, or Meshuggah, or whatever band, are not metal.

Metal is not a set of rules. 

Black Sabbath's Paranoid is a metal song, Metallica's Fade to Black is a Metal Song, Carcass' No Love Lost is a metal song, Biohazard's Judgement Night is a metal song, Korn's Blind is a metal song, Amorphis' Black Winter Day is a metal song, Paradise Lost's True Belief is a metal song... there are tons of ways to play metal, it's not like metal has a bible with a certain amount of rules that make something metal. 

To me, Staind in their heavieast moments is definitely Metal, Tool is Metal, Meshuggah is Metal, Ihsahn is Metal, Metallica is Metal, whatever heavy stuff is metal, even if it does have CORE or not, it's ....ing metal. Metal is like a state of spirit, like a mindset, not a set of riffing predetermined rules. If anything, Metal is against rules, Metal was born out of a desire to challenge rules and the status quo, not follow some absurd set of rules. My 2 cents.


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## BouhZik (Jan 26, 2015)

lucasreis said:


> I don't agree with the notion that Djent, or Meshuggah, or whatever band, are not metal.
> 
> Metal is not a set of rules.
> 
> ...



^THIS! 100x this.... I just laughed hard at all the bullsh.t "rules" posted previously. 
seriously, where does it come from? Who wrote those "rules"?? and who cares about those "rules" when it's time for some heavy riffing? 
FVCK MUSIC RULES. damn if bands starts to write riff with that kind of stupid rules in mind, metal's gonna suck big time really quick!


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## RV350ALSCYTHE (Jan 26, 2015)

BouhZik said:


> ^THIS! 100x this.... I just laughed hard at all the bullsh.t "rules" posted previously.
> seriously, where does it come from? Who wrote those "rules"?? and who cares about those "rules" when it's time for some heavy riffing?
> FVCK MUSIC RULES. damn if bands starts to write riff with that kind of stupid rules in mind, metal's gonna suck big time really quick!



Metal is nothing but rules now, rules imposed by the idiots who pretend metal is a culture and it's rules must be followed, or You're not Metal 

All i hear from those labeling themselves as metalheads (in real life, not internet speak) is rules and reasons why something is not metal.

Also, since today's metal was influenced/inspired by past metal and so on...I'm pretty sure they're following a set of rules set by predecessors. You don't label your style as inspired by metallica without following their set of rules in regards to writing metal-like music.

If metal had No Rules it would be much more expansive in regards to what is called metal.

Without Rules/Standards how do you argue that Taylor Swift isn't metal?? 

Play any riff and it's based on some form of rules set by someone else


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## canuck brian (Jan 26, 2015)

Who seriously gives a shit if someone else doesn't like the music you like? The whole "that's not REAL metal" or pigeonholing bands as blackened deathmathcoremetal or whatever is really stupid. It's metal.


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## BouhZik (Jan 26, 2015)

the only rule I know about music is "do I like it, or not?". Trve Cvlt real life Metalheads can spit their science all they want.

If I want to headbang on it, it's metal.


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## DarkWolfXV (Jan 26, 2015)

Ignorance is bliss I guess.


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## dedsouth333 (Jan 26, 2015)

What the goddamn .... is going on here. 

Who gives a flying squirrel's diarrhea spewing ass who calls what what?


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## BouhZik (Jan 26, 2015)

DarkWolfXV said:


> Ignorance is bliss I guess.



that is not what I'm saying. Music theory is a good.

labelling a band with heavy guitar and headbanging music "Nu-death-core" instead of "Trve Metal" or whatever is just usefull to make people talk IMHO 

techno have 15k different names where it really only need a fraction of them. We are not there yet with metal but it's on a good way...


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## totalnewb (Jan 26, 2015)

I think labeling has it's place as long as it isn't overused. It helps me to find bands i'll like a lot faster. For instance I don't like a lot of thrash bands, and I like some Death/Black metal, and I'm more likely to like thigns with symphonic elements. And I like bands that are prog/power metal a lot more often than any.


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## Demiurge (Jan 26, 2015)

Kind of weird, the direction the discussion is going. Is this really the big "takedown" of djent, saying that it's _not_ metal? It's kind of counter-intuitive. The only real off-putting thing about djent is how some artists act like it's some transcendence over metal or heavy music or whatever- that's almost as annoying as traditionalist elitism. If you really want to attack that pretense, defeat it by saying that it _is_ metal; it's not an insult- call it metal, give it the esteem that it deserves, piss-off the pretentious snobs and the "haters" alike.


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## Aion (Jan 26, 2015)

RV350ALSCYTHE said:


> Metal is nothing but rules now, rules imposed by the idiots who pretend metal is a culture and it's rules must be followed, or You're not Metal
> 
> All i hear from those labeling themselves as metalheads (in real life, not internet speak) is rules and reasons why something is not metal.
> 
> ...



I'm closer to "no rules," than I am to "these are the rules," but I'm closer to your opinion than either extreme. I don't think there are any definitive, "you need this to be metal," rules, but there are a set of traits and characteristics that makeup the amorphous blob that includes all metal music. Nothing will have all of these, and there's not any specific trait(s) or number of traits that a band needs to be metal.


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## mongey (Jan 27, 2015)

that was a good read. had a good few chuckels. and he isnt wrong about allot of it

of course he's totally wrong about Meshuggah.


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## ShadowAMD (Jan 27, 2015)

GunpointMetal said:


> Old Guy Who Can't Count Beyond Four Doesn't Get Music With Odd Rhythms should have been the title of this article. If he's serious, he's a moron.


 
Yes because odd rhythms on a Djent stick (including a whole one string) is the epitome of modern music.

Personally I like every type of music, but like every type of music something sets a trend and everyone pile drives it into the ground until you'd rather ingest the worlds spiciest chilli's from the backside up.

Pop music, rock, metal, djent, blues, funk.. All of them has its top tier capital songs and 1 BGillion (that's a metric system term) less than mediocre copies to ruin it for everyone else. There's always a diamond in the rough though.!


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## simonXsludge (Jan 28, 2015)

I find the article hilarious, because it takes all the Djent stereotypes and ridicules them in the most overexaggerated way.

As for the discussion whether Djent is Metal or not, I find this a very interesting discussion actually. I personally always kinda judge in a much more superficial way. Let's play a game:

Who would you label a Metal band based on these photos?












Metal is not only a genre, it's also a subculture. A subculture with certain looks, contents, its very own cliches, et cetera. I don't think most Djent bands even associate with the things that the Metal subculture associates with, other than some of the music here and there. The same goes for Metalcore or Deathcore, for the most part. These bands might play something that at some point had its origins in Metal, but they're not "socialized" by the subculture and usually rather associate with their immediate peers than the Metal bands which laid out the foundations for their music, so to speak.

Looking at that photo of Periphery, they could literally be playing ANY type of music. They could even be a boy band. You couldn't remotely tell that they play heavier music and that's why I personally, and I'm sure the same goes for Metal people, don't perceive them and similiar bands as Metal bands.


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## chassless (Jan 28, 2015)

^ looks change. Cannibal Corpse have their overall look/style based on the late 1980's/early 1990's, when the high school metalhead cliché was still a pretty fresh thing. i'm noticing that the newer trend likes to focus on that contrast between 'looking rather average' and 'playing heavy stuff' and that this contrast itself is part of the style. you're just pointing out that fashion trends change from a generation to another. of course Periphery, who are quite arguably our generation's trend setters, are not gonna look like what the definition of a heavy band looked like 20 to 30 years ago.

many, if not most heavy bands since 2006 look somewhat similar to what Periphery look like in that picture. i'm pretty certain most young people today would be able to tell they play heavy music just from taking a glance at that picture.


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## BouhZik (Jan 28, 2015)

Its about music. Not fashion. The way they looks is the last thing to consider when labeling music from a band. I do not listen to music with my eyes.....


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## GraemeH (Jan 28, 2015)

simonXsludge said:


> Looking at that photo of Periphery, they could literally be playing ANY type of music. They could even be a boy band. You couldn't remotely tell that they play heavier music and that's why I personally, and I'm sure the same goes for Metal people, don't perceive them and similiar bands as Metal bands.



tl;dr version of what this guy just said; "Unless you're a poser you're not metal".


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## simonXsludge (Jan 28, 2015)

chassless said:


> many, if not most heavy bands since 2006 look somewhat similar to what Periphery look like in that picture.


This is simply not true, unless your scope of Metal is mostly limited to the modern styles of Metal.



BouhZik said:


> Its about music. Not fashion. The way they looks is the last thing to consider when labeling music from a band. *I do not listen to music with my eyes.....*


Oh really... 



GraemeH said:


> tl;dr version of what this guy just said; "Unless you're a poser you're not metal".


Has nothing to do with being a poser vs. being real or whatever. I didn't mean it in a good or a bad way and it doesn't make Periphery a better or worse band than Cannibal Corpse either, haha. It's all about superficial perception - and I don't think of Metal when I look at Periphery, for example. I specifically stated it was a superficial destinction to make, so relax your butt.


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## chassless (Jan 28, 2015)

by mentioning 2006, i was referencing most bands playing modern styles of metal, so yes. though i don't believe this disproves my point, since, again, trends and looks change. what i'm trying to say is while i agree CC certainly do look more brvtal, we're the ones stuck in the past, if we think metal bands (should) look like CC, while for most of the upcoming generation, the common metalhead will look a little more like an edgy hipster. it's just how it is.


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## DLG (Jan 28, 2015)

it's about sound too. periphery's vocals are closer to fall out boy than to iron maiden. 

that's enough for me.


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## GraemeH (Jan 28, 2015)

simonXsludge said:


> Has nothing to do with being a poser vs. being real or whatever. I didn't mean it in a good or a bad way and it doesn't make Periphery a better or worse band than Cannibal Corpse either, haha. It's all about superficial perception - and I don't think of Metal when I look at Periphery, for example. I specifically stated it was a superficial destinction to make, so relax your butt.



Cool then.

I just think image is the last thing to judge on when it comes to music. I want to see bands going up on stage in whatever everyday clothes they happen to wear.
In fact, if I see some nerdy looking guy go up and play metal, and one of these Norwegian black metal transvestites with the leather and spikes and makeup go up and play similar music, I'd probably perceive the former to be "more metal" due to being able to let his music give the metal impression itself without the poser theatrics.

I'm glad more bands these days are tending towards just playing music and not carving out images for themselves.
Bands going out of their way to make themselves look like greasy hippies/fake bad ass outlaw bikers/fake nazi enthusiasts/satanists/whatever (all of which have been heavily represented in metal image in the last few decades) are just a cliche. It's hair-metal level shit all over again.


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## DLG (Jan 28, 2015)

GraemeH said:


> I'm glad more bands these days are tending towards just playing music and not carving out images for themselves.



you don't think bands like periphery are carving out an image for themselves?

the drummer practically has his own line of v-neck shirts and the singer dyes and fashions his hair more than my girlfriend. 

tosin doesn't care about image?

even trying hard not to look like a metal band means having an image. 

hell, even not having an image is a conscious decision.


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## simonXsludge (Jan 28, 2015)

^I agree.

Making more mainstream fashion choices doesn't mean they're not fashion choices.


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## BouhZik (Jan 28, 2015)

simonXsludge said:


> Oh really...
> .



Yeah! Really!! After all the "superficial" sh.t in your post about the way x and y look like, I thought it was a good reminder!


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## GraemeH (Jan 28, 2015)

DLG said:


> you don't think bands like periphery are carving out an image for themselves?
> 
> the drummer practically has his own line of v-neck shirts and the singer dyes and fashions his hair more than my girlfriend.
> 
> ...



True, but the periphery stuff would be true of them if they weren't in a metal band and they had jobs in supermarkets. It's their personal image rather than an image for their metal band. We all have a personal image. I get up in the morning and decide that jeans and a dark t-shirt are good on me. I'd decide the same if I was in a metal band.

If Kerry King worked in the deli down the street from you, would he be standing behind the counter in his leathers with his chains whilst serving?

(I'll point out btw I listen to mostly older metal myself, not much modern metal)


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## octatoan (Jan 28, 2015)

BouhZik said:


> the only rule I know about music is "do I like it, or not?". Trve Cvlt real life Metalheads can spit their science all they want.
> 
> If I want to headbang on it, it's metal.



So Liszt is metal? (I do think so . . .)


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## simonXsludge (Jan 28, 2015)

BouhZik said:


> Yeah! Really!! After all the "superficial" sh.t in your post about the way x and y look like, I thought it was a good reminder!


That I was talking things _besides music_ should be self-explanatory...


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## Aion (Jan 28, 2015)

octatoan said:


> So Liszt is metal? (I do think so . . .)




I've often said that Beethoven's 5th is the first metal song and Liszt was the first rock star, haha. It's kind of tongue and cheek, but it's not totally without merit as an idea. If you want a great, nerdy, music movie. Lisztomania. It's directed by Ken Russell (same guy who directed Tommy) and has Roger Daltrey of the Who as Franz Liszt who is sent on a holy mission by the Pope (played by a cowboy boot wearing Ringo Starr) to exercise the spirit of Hitler from Wagner's soul. Music by Rick Wakeman (keyboardist of Yes fame) who also has a cameo as the ubermensch. It's silly with a lot of dry, surrealist, and crude humor.

Anyway, going back to the metal as fashion/subculture, yeah it's a subculture, but just like defining certain music as being "metal," there aren't a list of traits that are needed. If you look at the photos and the, "which are from a metal band," question, I'll point out that neither has anyone wearing leather. Leather is generally a fashion associated with heavy music. But both bands are still metal because if there was a big list of things you needed to be metal we'd all look like NWOBHM wannabes. Rob Halford cut his hair pretty early on, but I don't think anyone would dispute the fact that he's a very metal dude, arguably the one who brought metal its own set of fashions. Meanwhile one of the things that Thrash Metal did for metal "fashion," was popularize the idea that you could just walk onto stage wearing whatever you had on. I think in both photos we're seeing that mentality. You can't say, "walk on wearing whatever you wear on the street," and then say, "well wearing that on the street isn't really metal." At the very least it's a logical inconsistency.


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## DLG (Jan 28, 2015)

Aion said:


> Meanwhile one of the things that Thrash Metal did for metal "fashion," was popularize the idea that you could just walk onto stage wearing whatever you had on.



yep, that's exactly it. 

thrash bands didn't care what they were wearing. but the fact that they went on stage wearing band shirts with cutoff sleeves, tight ripped jeans, and white hi-tops ended up becoming the official uniform of thrash metal that you see thrash bands still rocking today. 

Nirvana was the same. they wore whatever they wanted, and then their ugly sweaters and plaid button up shirts officially became the grunge uniform.


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## Randy (Jan 28, 2015)

Alex shut rep off a week too soon.


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## lucasreis (Jan 28, 2015)

This whole fashion debate is also rather pointless.

I've been listening to rock and metal since the late 80's and playing guitar since 1991. I only had a small period of my life in which I wanted to wear metal related clothing and stuff like that. I'm not really a fan of dressing myself with bands t-shirts and I don't wear black that often, in fact, I don't have a rock or metal look at all, I just dress myself in an average way, in fact, I really enjoy wearing colorful clothes (bermudas, pants, stuff like that). I don't have tattoos, or piercings, nothing like that, I don't have long hair (had it twice in my lifetime), but bottom line is, you don't have to dress metal to be a fan, not at all. 

Helmet was a huge influence on me. With their sound and also with their clothes, it's not like I dressed like them, but I liked the sense of ".... that, let's wear shorts and shirts and shit", I know it was a very fabricated look as well, but they didn't rock any less because of it. In college, people often thought I liked Popular Brazilian Music, POP, shit like that, because they didn't associate my looks with metal, but when they learned what I liked, I was never accused of being a poser or anything like that. In fact, I have many friends with traditional rock and metal looks, tattoos, piercings, etcetera, and none of them ever judged me about how I look, quite the contrary, they respect me a lot because of my knowledge of the subject. 

So, when I look at Periphery, I don't think they're any less metal than any other band. It's about the sound, not the look. I've seen boy bands who look like rock bands as well.


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## Promit (Jan 28, 2015)

Five pages in and it falls to ME to post this? I'm so goddamn disappointed in all of you.


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## vm27 (Jan 28, 2015)

hairychris said:


> Incorrect. It started when Black Sabbath fans took the piss out of Led Zep fans for being flowery wankers, and LZ fans castigated BS fans for not washing.
> 
> This might not be entirely true but there has always been a divide. So I agree...
> 
> ...


Great post! This is exactly what I thought, djent is the current trend and will soon subside. Just like any other trend.


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## TedEH (Jan 28, 2015)

I find it odd that people have stopped categorizing music by it's aural characteristics in favor of dividing by the subculture that enjoys it. If you step back and look at all the things that get called metal one way or another, there's so much variety that it's difficult to justify excluding something for reasons that ultimately boil down to "I don't like it, so I won't allow it to be associated with something I do like".

I mean, why is power metal allowed to be part of metal? It's got barely anything in common with all the blackened-death-grindy-gore-kvlt-brvtal-blatbeats-until-you're-bleeding types of music we often call metal (although, I've been told that some of THOSE don't count as metal either... ). But nobody questions it. Opeth is allowed to be called a metal band even though what they play is so far from metal now. If you listen to some Rainbow, then Cannibal Corpse, then Meshuggah- how can you say the first two are the same kind of music, but not the third? It's just a popularity contest. 

I'm gonna continue calling it all metal, like I always have.


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## mongey (Jan 28, 2015)

Metal has always been kinda obsessed with putting eveyrthing in a category. I dont know why . every music genre has its styles but metal is way out there with how many different sub genres there are. 

there are so many now I think basically anything can be called metal . 

I have to say as a guiarist maybe the drummer defines a metal band more than the guitarist these days . In the days of old the vocalist was a huge part of it but these days its seems anything goes. Persoanlly I really dont liek the periphery style clean singing .I like clean singing in heavy stuff but its just way to poppy for me , its not what I listen to heavy music for, but hey I wouldnt say its not metal


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## chassless (Jan 28, 2015)

mongey said:


> Metal has always been kinda obsessed with putting eveyrthing in a category. I dont know why . every music genre has its styles but metal is way out there with how many different sub genres there are.



all the better for us to pinpoint what exact styles and flavors we prefer in order to find new music and to feed our hipster tendencies


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## thrsher (Jan 28, 2015)

im surprised we are not at the point of just saying 80s metal 90s metal etc, each decade pretty much encompassed very specific styles that dominated those years in mainstream media (for metal that is) we have 80s pop 90s pop and there really are no discussion on subgenres, even with rap, we all know what 80s rap and 90s rap is. although rap does have its subsects, its not argued the same like metal


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## TedEH (Jan 28, 2015)

chassless said:


> find new music



Maybe my experience is not that of the majority, but I find breaking music down to much into very specific elements makes it harder to find new music. If you simply say "I like metal", there's so much to be recommended under that umbrella, and since everyone's definition of the term is a little different, you're likely to get something new pretty often if you ask for suggestions. Alternatively if you specify that you like "blackened symphonic kvlt pop metal from Spain played by no less than 8 people, all with long hair and pet birds named after Norse gods, and recorded on yellow guitars tuned to drop-negative-z", you've clearly restricted the possibilities.

Sidenote, this thread has been a great exercise in coming up with the most ridiculous genre descriptions I can think of.


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## ShadowAMD (Jan 28, 2015)

TedEH said:


> Maybe my experience is not that of the majority, but I find breaking music down to much into very specific elements makes it harder to find new music. If you simply say "I like metal", there's so much to be recommended under that umbrella, and since everyone's definition of the term is a little different, you're likely to get something new pretty often if you ask for suggestions. Alternatively if you specify that you like "blackened symphonic kvlt pop metal from Spain played by no less than 8 people, all with long hair and pet birds named after Norse gods, and recorded on yellow guitars tuned to drop-negative-z", you've clearly restricted the possibilities.
> 
> Sidenote, this thread has been a great exercise in coming up with the most ridiculous genre descriptions I can think of.


 
Hyperdodecahedronstarnighttritone metal..! (Say that when you're drunk, or don't..... Whatever ).

Heavy Diamond (Because one 1lb of diamond is heavier than 1lb of metal, obviously)

That'snotmetal ... Metal!.

Quiffmetal (Rhythmically bounce that hair, but not enough of it to mess with your hair product).

ChickenMetal (So good, it'll make you lay an egg).


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## Sumsar (Jan 28, 2015)

hairychris said:


> - "Djent" will grow until the market for it saturates.
> - By this point the big bands are playing fancy tours, and the local scenes will be full of guys/girls trying to sound like them.
> - Some form of metal that is the complete opposite will all of a sudden be what the younger kids listen to. I would take a guess at it being a lot less tech...
> - A few bands will manage to carry on, the majority will implode as the market drops.
> ...



Yeah here in Denmark where I live, the djent thing already imploded (it was never a huge thing anyway). A few years ago every upcoming concert you went to had at least one djent-ish wannabe band. Now it appears that the new black .. is black .. now all of a sudden every upcoming band is playing blackmetal, and as much as i like black metal, most of the bands are just bad copies of 90' bands from norway, and yes some of it is even kind of emo-black (YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG KIDS!! ) if you have do black (and it seems you must) then please do not try and reintrepert it in a softer and more mainstream way! make it even more extreme


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## Dana (Jan 28, 2015)

djent sucks.
Periphery i like. everything else is rubbish.


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## troyguitar (Jan 28, 2015)

TedEH said:


> I mean, why is power metal allowed to be part of metal? It's got barely anything in common with all the blackened-death-grindy-gore-kvlt-brvtal-blatbeats-until-you're-bleeding types of music we often call metal



FWIW power metal has more in common with early metal than any of the "angry" variants... Black Sabbath basically played power metal with Dio long before blastbeats were a thing.


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## DLG (Jan 29, 2015)

power metal is directly spawned from iron maiden and judas priest. doesn't really get more metal than that.


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## redstone (Jan 29, 2015)

When Heavy is the genre, the subgenre cannot go against it without being downgraded to .. rock ^^

This is Power metal

This is Power rock 

This is djenty djent

Aaaalright this wasn't fair


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## Timelesseer (Jan 29, 2015)

It blows my mind how personal people get when it comes to PREFERENCES. I've never been a fan of bands like Cannibal Corpse or Dying Fetus, but I can respect their talent and accomplishments. Some people take this shit way too seriously when at the end of the day, it all comes down to personal taste. A lot of people hate Spencer because of his range of singing and that they feel that doesn't belong in THEIR idea of metal. Well for some of us that like more genres of music than big sweaty dudes with corpse paint, it's refreshing to be able to enjoy heavy metal grooves, combined with the singing range of poppier music. Just because you've been listening to Raining Blood on repeat for 20 years doesn't mean every one else has to.


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## Zalbu (Jan 29, 2015)

All this talk about how metal bands look or are supposed to look is the most pointless discussion ever. The guys in Protest The Hero were like 17-18 and looked like the biggest nerds ever when they recorded Kezia and that album still blows most metal albums out of the water.


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## TedEH (Jan 29, 2015)

Zalbu said:


> The guys in Protest The Hero



There's a great example- I've never thought they were a "metal" band, but apparently I'm wrong . Some kind of "something"-core certainly, but I've never associated them with the rest of metal. I mean that in the sense that I'd find it strange if they toured with Slayer, but not if they toured with Fall out Boy or something. It's probably just the singing that throws me off.


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## TedEH (Jan 29, 2015)

Zalbu said:


> the most pointless discussion ever.



It's not really though. If you think about it, what we're really discussing is how our music is being marketed to us- which is a relevant discussion for both selling and consuming. Lets not kid ourselves, a fair number of metal-or-otherwise-vaguely-heavy music listening people have a tendency to be elitist, picky, etc., which has a pretty heavy (hah) influence on how you have to sell to them. People know what they want, and in very specific terms. Stray too far from a viable audience, and it doesn't matter how many hours you spent perfecting your sweep-picking wankery, nobody is going to buy into it. And it might be something as stupid as wearing the wrong clothes. 

Great example: A band that opened for us recently had a guitarist who showed up with "emo" hair and a fake tail attached to him. I instantly can't take his band seriously, despite the fact that they were proficient with their instruments, and the tunes themselves weren't terrible. Is it fair that they were judged that way instead of letting the music speak for itself? Not really. But that's the nature of the beast.


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## DLG (Jan 29, 2015)

I honestly don't give a crap about image. But it is a big deal. 

Lots of true metalheads will skip over Protest the Hero because of their image, and I'm sure there are tons of prog nerds out there who would love them if they just listened to the music. 

I love Roddy's vocals, but I can't stand Spencer's vocals. 

I have no problem with Periphery's image, I honest to goodness can't get into the music for whatever reason, mostly the vocals to be honest. Just not my thing, they annoy me to no end. I just get douche chills as soon as he opens his mouth, it rubs me the wrong way (no homo)

Would I like them with Devin Townsend singing or Daniel from Textures? probably. I'd at least like them more. It's definitely not about image for me ever. I grew up listening to mostly nerdy prog bands where everyone in the band was either ugly and/or fat. 

Another band that's hilarious to me when it comes to image is Battlecross. 

I saw one video of theirs and it sounded like a very average metalcore band. And then I noticed one of my trve/kvlt facebook friends hyping them. And it was clear to me that if these dude's looked like Parkway Drive instead of Amon Amarth this dude would hate them. But he became more tolerant to the music because of the image. 

So it's definitely a thing whether it's good for music or not.


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## tedtan (Jan 29, 2015)

TedEH said:


> Great example: A band that opened for us recently had a guitarist who showed up with "emo" hair and a fake tail attached to him. I instantly can't take his band seriously, despite the fact that they were proficient with their instruments, and the tunes themselves weren't terrible. Is it fair that they were judged that way instead of letting the music speak for itself? Not really. But that's the nature of the beast.



At least they were clothed, though. I had a band open for us once and they came out on stage naked as the day they were born. They got some attention from it, but not the kind they wanted.


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## Dana (Jan 29, 2015)

That's bad naked. 
It's like watching someone belt sand a floor nude.... Just wrong.
Or seeing a beautiful girl open a jar of pickles naked. Suddenly all sorts of muscles spring into action you've never seen before....


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## DLG (Jan 29, 2015)

do a google image search for Profanatica


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## TedEH (Jan 29, 2015)

DLG said:


> do a google image search for Profanatica



I have a feeling I should not google that at work. Am I wrong?


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## bhakan (Jan 29, 2015)

One thing I find interesting with the whole genre debate is that most of the stuff that people argue isn't metal is metalcore with high pitched, whiny vocals. It's normally the vocals that really turn people off. Metalcore is a a mix of metal, and hardcore, and I don't think the clean vocals came from hardcore. I can't think of any hardcore with clean vocals, yet metal has always had clean vocals, often high pitched. 

Also, a lot of metalcore riffs borrow heavily from the gothenburg style of riffs developed by bands like In Flames. Obviously metalcore still has a very different style and aesthetic than most metal, and if you don't like that it's fine (I'm not a big fan in general), but it's annoying everytime anyone refers to a metalcore band as metal to have a bunch of people jump on them telling them it's not metal.


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## illimmigrant (Jan 29, 2015)

I was eating lunch while I read this and my cheeks hurt from smiling through the whole thing. It was pretty funny. Yeah there are some rather unoriginal bands out there taking full advantage of the first few frets of their 8th, 9th, or even 10th string on their guitars, but some of the talent to have erupted these past 5-10 years is pretty undeniable. I've been listening to Misha's stuff for about 9 years now I guess. I'm 30 and I've gone through my share of Metal, grunge, rap metal, nu-metal, metalcore, etc. I never really care what it's called and I never categorize it. If it sounds good to me, I'm happy!


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## DLG (Jan 29, 2015)

you are not wrong


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## UV7BK4LIFE (Jan 29, 2015)

> Once you figure out just the right way to tune, distort and smack on your lowest string, you're pretty much ....ing golden as far as the entire djenre goes.


The man is entitled to his opinion, but this is just the 1,000,000th version of "It's easy when you know how to do it.", which is just about the lamest remark that became a trend in the last 10 years, battling for 1st place with "ohmygawd" and "that's hot". Well, surprise, it takes effort to get there, doesn't it?

It was quite an enjoyable read, and surprising he's able to elaborate so much on something he's not interested in


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## Zalbu (Jan 29, 2015)

TedEH said:


> It's not really though. If you think about it, what we're really discussing is how our music is being marketed to us- which is a relevant discussion for both selling and consuming.


Maybe for people who judge music for anything but the music, sure, but I try to stay away from the elitists and listen to what I think sounds good. All power to them but I'll be over here rocking out to Babymetal


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## DarkWolfXV (Jan 29, 2015)

Periphery is pretty much a boy band, though. They're not metal, never were and never will be.


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## GraemeH (Jan 29, 2015)

Zalbu said:


> I'll be over here rocking out to Babymetal



Brixon 2014 veteran, homie. I shall never look at a live metal show the same way again


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## Promit (Jan 29, 2015)

DarkWolfXV said:


> Periphery is pretty much a boy band, though. They're not metal, never were and never will be.


And what's the criteria of that and who's the judge?

Separate from that - personally, I'm tired of metal vocals where some idiot is trying to remove his lungs by force of screaming. It ruined Feared's otherwise excellent music for me.


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## DarkWolfXV (Jan 29, 2015)

I've already said what's the criteria previously in this thread. And Feared's vocals are pretty much pathetic, I can agree with you on that.


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## TedEH (Jan 29, 2015)

Zalbu said:


> Maybe for people who judge music for anything but the music



But that's everyone. Nobody judges all music solely on musicality, and you can argue all you want that you don't, but I won't believe you. Even your example: Babymetal? They're exactly what I'm talking about. They're a product of marketing. Nobody would like them if they didn't have all the Japanese culture, "cute" women, references to other subcultures, etc all funneled into it to try to hit as many demographics at once as possible. If you took all that stuff away, there's not much musical value there. Are you going to claim that their look is unimportant?

When you listen to a band, sure, the music itself plays a large role in whether you'll like it or not- but that's not the only thing that goes through your mind. As a listener, you form a mental picture of the musicians, what they stand for, what they would wear, what their beliefs might be, you consider what your friends would think if you told them you listen to this, you consider whether or not you agree with the song's message or lyrical content, you think about how the piece reflects (or doesn't) some part of your own character, etc. "That music is for hipsters." "That music is for old people." "I don't listen to female vocalists." "I only listen to x." "This is my friends favorite band." It doesn't matter how good or bad something is, you won't like it if you think liking it will make you uncool somehow.

Someone could argue that they don't evaluate music in this way as much as someone else, but everyone does it on at least some level.


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## DarkWolfXV (Jan 29, 2015)

^ Exactly! Music and "art" overall is at least 90% marketing.


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## canuck brian (Jan 29, 2015)

DarkWolfXV said:


> Periphery is pretty much a boy band, though. They're not metal, never were and never will be.



Lemme see.... 

If Periphery guys play these weird 7 and 8 string guitars...












Like this guy plays...






and this guy plays.....






Has a drummer, like the other bands that does things like this...






Play thru these ...like every other metal band these days...






Has guitar sounds that sound like this...






Fans that do this...






And look similar to these guys...






Switch between growly and clean vocals with clean guitar passages...like these guys....






....well then i'm kinda curious to know what disqualifies them as a metal band.


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## ke7mix (Jan 29, 2015)

So what I have deduced from reading this thread is that Music does and does not matter in a band depending on what may or may not be the importance of image in a manner that is potential of putting to some but not all in an objective sense that will potentially categorize a band as metal or not.

I think that makes sense


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## asher (Jan 29, 2015)

canuck brian said:


> and this guy plays.....



But you forgot, this guy's not metal either


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## mongey (Jan 29, 2015)

TedEH said:


> But that's everyone. Nobody judges all music solely on musicality, and you can argue all you want that you don't, but I won't believe you. Even your example: Babymetal? They're exactly what I'm talking about. They're a product of marketing. Nobody would like them if they didn't have all the Japanese culture, "cute" women, references to other subcultures, etc all funneled into it to try to hit as many demographics at once as possible. If you took all that stuff away, there's not much musical value there. Are you going to claim that their look is unimportant?
> 
> When you listen to a band, sure, the music itself plays a large role in whether you'll like it or not- but that's not the only thing that goes through your mind. As a listener, you form a mental picture of the musicians, what they stand for, what they would wear, what their beliefs might be, you consider what your friends would think if you told them you listen to this, you consider whether or not you agree with the song's message or lyrical content, you think about how the piece reflects (or doesn't) some part of your own character, etc. "That music is for hipsters." "That music is for old people." "I don't listen to female vocalists." "I only listen to x." "This is my friends favorite band." It doesn't matter how good or bad something is, you won't like it if you think liking it will make you uncool somehow.
> 
> Someone could argue that they don't evaluate music in this way as much as someone else, but everyone does it on at least some level.


 

agree completly.


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## canuck brian (Jan 29, 2015)

asher said:


> But you forgot, this guy's not metal either



He *is* wearing that hockey jersey.....definitely not metal. What a poser douche.


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## Konfyouzd (Jan 29, 2015)

Wow... What a new and exciting concept: old ppl hate new music.


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## DarkWolfXV (Jan 29, 2015)

canuck brian said:


> Lemme see....



Danza and Glass Cloud aren't metal bands either, as much as I like them, double bass is not exclusive to metal, and lol @ Periphery having a chainsaw guitar sound, not at all, they have a very clean, low/mid gain tone, not even close to the famous Gothenburg HM-2 pedal sound that's commonly referred to as "chainsaw". It doesn't matter what the fans do either, or that they look like this alt metal band I've never heard of. "Every other metal band these days"? Most metal bands still use tube amps, and Axe-FX isn't exclusively a metal amp. Opeth's newer works aren't metal at all, either. But they do have one thing in common with this guy though, the clean vocals:







If you're keen on stupidly filling your post with images to get showered with likes.

That of course is not the most important thing and alone does not disqualify them. What is important is that they do not have any metal riffs, and this is the thing which makes them "not metal", in addition to the completely un-metal sonic aesthetic (remember, sonic, the way how they look doesn't in any way affect the genre they play, but of course is an important marketing tool)


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## mongey (Jan 29, 2015)

Konfyouzd said:


> Wow... What a new and exciting concept: old ppl hate new music.


 
but music was so much better whan I was 16


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## Konfyouzd (Jan 29, 2015)

And I think sex is better w a woman (despite having gone through 0 effort to gain evidence to the contrary). We all have preferences (be it rational, justified or otherwise). Why does a difference between them always mean problems?


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## DarkWolfXV (Jan 29, 2015)

canuck brian said:


> He *is* wearing that hockey jersey.....definitely not metal. What a poser douche.



Looks are important, but do not matter in deciding what music is metal and what is not metal. The only thing that matters in deciding the genre are the sonic characteristics.

Look at this band, Epicardiectomy:






Those people kind of look like rappers, but their music is metal.


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## Konfyouzd (Jan 29, 2015)

The more responses I read to Brian's post the more I believe he COULDNT have been serious. Rub some tiger balm on you butts, boys...


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## canuck brian (Jan 29, 2015)

I showered the post with pics to *illustrate* how stupid you're coming off. 



DarkWolfXV said:


> Danza ..isn't a metal band



This time i just need to quote you.


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## mongey (Jan 29, 2015)

Konfyouzd said:


> And I think sex is better w a woman. We all have preferences. Why does a difference between them always mean problems?


 
It shouldnt. I was being sarcastic with my remark . I agree with you 

new genetations re invent genres and change what they are . its old guys duty to think it used to be better 

I love early to mid late 90's new york hiphop .I pretty much dispise every hip hop album since apart from a handful of good ones . what the music was just changed and I don't dig it so I just listen to my old stuff


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## Konfyouzd (Jan 29, 2015)

Yea I dig it. I figured you weren't being serious. I sensed no butt-hurtedness in your post.


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## canuck brian (Jan 29, 2015)

mongey said:


> It shouldnt. I was being sarcastic with my remark . I agree with you
> 
> new genetations re invent genres and change what they are . its old guys duty to think it used to be better
> 
> I love early to mid late 90's new york hiphop .I pretty much dispise every hip hop album since apart from a handful of good ones . what the music was just changed and I don't dig it so I just listen to my old stuff



I'm nearly 40, listen to brutal death metal, black sabbath, Zepp, Periphery, Pantera, Ice Cube...age doesn't mean shit. People who do the "in my day... XX was better" are just people who haven't bothered to either grow up or accept that time actually does pass.


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## DarkWolfXV (Jan 29, 2015)

canuck brian said:


> I showered the post with pics to *illustrate* how stupid you're coming off.



You're coming off stupid. I addressed every part of your post and all you can respond with is my quote of "Danza is not a metal band" without even telling me why do you think that I am wrong.


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## Konfyouzd (Jan 29, 2015)

Sometimes ppl hear shit I listen to and say: "Ughh... My mom listens that stuff," as though it somehow discredits the music. What if your mom is fvckin brilliant and YOU'RE the dummy? What if that question is 100% irrelevant?

I usually say something like: "Word? Is she single?" 

Also... Stop arguing what does and doesn't belong to a genre... THAT is stupid, Dark Wolf... Lincoln's Republicans are today's Democrats. Far be it for me to think names are arbitrary.


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## mongey (Jan 29, 2015)

canuck brian said:


> I'm nearly 40, listen to brutal death metal, black sabbath, Zepp, Periphery, Pantera, Ice Cube...age doesn't mean shit. People who do the "in my day... XX was better" are just people who haven't bothered to either grow up or accept that time actually does pass.


 
fair enough. I'm 40 .don't get me wrong . there's lots about new music I embarce , but there are also sensibilities I just dont enjoy so I leave it to those who do 

I think the blurring of the lines is a good thing. music needs to change , we all need to accept it . but we can also not enjoy where its heading if we dont .its art, its an opinion , its made to be enjoyed and discussed 

Periphery is at the centre of this dicussion .I think they are a good band that has been copied way too much, I don't listen to them as I really don't dig his clean poppy vocal styling. couldnt care less about how they look or are marketed 

I'll take meshuggah over periphery 100 times out of 100


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## DarkWolfXV (Jan 29, 2015)

I do not discredit "unmetal" music in any way. As I've said previously, I enjoy a variety of -core music, including the bands that many people on this site deem "shit" like Emmure and Attila. They're not metal, but I can enjoy them. I listen to anything really. Classical, pop, jazz, metal, rock, rap, electronic, I can find something that appeals to me in every genre. I disagree with you that "arguing" is stupid. What else a forum is for? The purpose of a forum is discussion. We're discussing. Discussion in itself is not stupid.


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## canuck brian (Jan 29, 2015)

DarkWolfXV said:


> You're coming off stupid. I addressed every part of your post and all you can respond with is my quote of "Danza is not a metal band" without even telling me why do you think that I am wrong.



I thought I came off as slightly amusing. Oh well.

Ok. 

Chainsaw distortion. I'm glad that your young mind went to the absolute extreme and you thought lecturing someone who's seen Entombed 5 times before you were born made sense. It was a pictoral reference to a guitar sound that I attempted to use to convey the sound of distorted guitar to a majority of people. I'm aware of the sound that Mr Bergstrand helped bring to the masses. Thanks for the tips on how to make the sound though - I actually asked Hellid himself during the tour for Clandestine. 

I more or less stopped at the "Danza isn't a metal band" because I personally believe it is an asinine statement. I'm glad that the ultra-narrow definition of a metal band in your head has a very specific requirement to "riffing" but mine...along with a majority of metalheads, doesn't. I have yet to find any specific document carved into a stone tablet defining a "metal riff", but I honestly believe that Periphery has said riffs. Pidgeonholing bands into these wee little categories and shitting all over the opinions of people who don't makes you the metalhead equivalent of a hipster. Me telling you that I think all of these bands are metal is kinda simplistic, but it isn't instantly shitting on everyone elses opinion either.

I geniunely believe that people such as yourself that pidgeonhole bands in this manner are specifically looking for a reason to berate people on why their opinions are wrong and how their tastes and knowledge in music is inferior. Again...hipster.

So with that being said, what exactly about Danza's or Periphery's music causes them to not have, what you claim, metal riffs? As a comparison, could you let me know why Necrophagist and say....Psycroptic are metal bands without using image as a factor?

Keep in mind that the opinion of someone who says Meshuggah hasn't really released a "metal" album since Contradictions Collapse is going to be taken with a grain of salt.


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## Zalbu (Jan 29, 2015)

TedEH said:


> If you took all that stuff away, there's not much musical value there. Are you going to claim that their look is unimportant?


Sure, it's not exactly unimportant but I would probably still listen to them if they didn't have their image because there's a lack of metal with good female vocalists. The music itself is still better than a lot of metalcore bands so it's a win-win. I probably wouldn't know of them if it weren't for the marketing but that's a completely different discussion.



TedEH said:


> It doesn't matter how good or bad something is, you won't like it if you think liking it will make you uncool somehow



I'm listening to eurobeat as I'm typing this, trust me, I'm about as uncool as it gets when it comes to music. 



DarkWolfXV said:


> But they do have one thing in common with this guy though, the clean vocals:


So these guys aren't metal either because they use clean vocals in some sections?


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## spawnofthesith (Jan 29, 2015)

Genres are for dweebs and caring about what music other people listen to = basement dweller 



Article had me chuckling, seemed like satire. I wouldn't get twisted panties over it


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## Aion (Jan 29, 2015)

DarkWolfXV said:


> they do not have any metal riffs, and this is the thing which makes them "not metal"





I have been waiting so long for a just opportunity to use that emoji. My eternal gratitude.


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## piggins411 (Jan 29, 2015)

I think if I keep reading this thread, blood might actually start pouring out of my orifices. But I'll probably keep reading it


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## DarkWolfXV (Jan 29, 2015)

Zalbu said:


> So these guys aren't metal either because they use clean vocals in some sections?




No



DarkWolfXV said:


> That of course is not the most important thing and alone does not disqualify them.



I made the comparison to Justin Bieber because clean vocals of Periphery do in fact sound like Justin Bieber to me. As in, the vocals of Periphery sound like vocals of a pop artist. Not metal. Not just in the timbre, but also in their usage. I don't listen to BTBAM, but based on that song, I'd say they are metal. Again, because they have metal riffs, and Periphery does not.



canuck brian said:


> I more or less stopped at the "Danza isn't a metal band" because I personally believe it is an asinine statement. I'm glad that the ultra-narrow definition of a metal band in your head has a very specific requirement to "riffing" but mine...along with a majority of metalheads, doesn't. I have yet to find any specific document carved into a stone tablet defining a "metal riff", but I honestly believe that Periphery has said riffs. Pidgeonholing bands into these wee little categories and shitting all over the opinions of people who don't makes you the metalhead equivalent of a hipster. Me telling you that I think all of these bands are metal is kinda simplistic, but it isn't instantly shitting on everyone elses opinion either.
> 
> I geniunely believe that people such as yourself that pidgeonhole bands in this manner are specifically looking for a reason to berate people on why their opinions are wrong and how their tastes and knowledge in music is inferior. Again...hipster.
> 
> So with that being said, what exactly about Danza's or Periphery's music causes them to not have, what you claim, metal riffs? As a comparison, could you let me know why Necrophagist and say....Psycroptic are metal bands without using image as a factor?



It's okay. I might've come off as authoritarian, but my intent is not to shit over opinions of everyone else. I respect what Aion wrote previously, because he wrote a long, detailed post explaining why he thinks that I am wrong. Everyone else pretty much just wrote short, vague sentences stating that I'm wrong, with nothing at all supporting them. But whatever. I'm not going to convince you, and you aren't going to convince me either. I'll just answer your last question. Necrophagist and Psycroptic are metal bands because they do in fact have metal riffs. Danza only has a minuscle amount of them, and so does Periphery. I've explained what I deem metal riffs earlier in this thread. There you go.

You might think I'm full of shit or something, but whatever. Cheers


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## Draceius (Jan 29, 2015)

piggins411 said:


> I think if I keep reading this thread, blood might actually start pouring out of my orifices. But I'll probably keep reading it



It's threads like these that remind me why I lurk more than post on 90% of forums I go on, it's very hard not to get angry at some people, even if it's a pointless internet debate.


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## Aion (Jan 29, 2015)

DarkWolfXV said:


> I respect what Aion wrote previously, because he wrote a long, detailed post explaining why he thinks that I am wrong.



Someone finally appreciates my long rants explaining why they're wrong, most people just use my face as a punching bag. I am so happy.


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## asher (Jan 29, 2015)




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## ShadowAMD (Jan 30, 2015)

DarkWolfXV said:


> No
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
So Metallica aren't a "metal band" then, even though they're classified as an American heavy metal band? I've heard country singers with the same twang as Hetfield, just to stir the pot.

What's defined as a Metal Riff?, if Meshuggah or Emperor played an A chord in structure are they going to get thrown into a hole never to return? Because an A chord isn't metal enough? 

The most prominent matter is why does it even matter in the first place? 

Generically, not aimed at who I'm quoting. I respect Periphery, they are good musicians and I liked Icarus Lives with Casey Sabol, holistically though they sound like generic metal band 2231231 to me. But that doesn't mean I'm right about it, many people love Periphery and I respect that.

I love Scar Symmetry, I'm sure many people think they suck. Although I couldn't care what other people classify them as genre wise, neither does someone else have to like them for me to.

Music is like food, every type of food is not there to be enjoyed by everyone although different parts of it will be enjoyed by someone. I've never heard someone be called a Jackass for not liking bread.


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## eaeolian (Jan 30, 2015)

I think you all need to STFU and go listen to some Maiden.



Seriously, a few of you *cough* NotBobDarkWolf and Brian *cough* need to chill out. K?


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## tedtan (Jan 30, 2015)

spawnofthesith said:


> Article had me chuckling, seemed like satire. I wouldn't get twisted panties over it



Yeah, I read it that way, too. But even if he were serious, there's really no reason to get worked up over it. Just have a good laugh (or several) at the writing style.


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