# Extended range classical guitar



## Contrapunctus (Jan 9, 2013)

Good day, folks.

I'm a classical guitarist. Experienced as a player, but rather green in terms of guitar-purchasing. =\

I'm in the market for an extended range classical guitar - budget upto USD 3750, including case.
Instrument intended is a basic 11 string classical guitar (tuned Ab0 Db1 Gb1 B1 E2 A2 D3 G3 B3 E4 A4); or, if for one reason or another that is not possible, a 10 string classical guitar (tuned Ab0 Db1 Gb1 B1 E2 A2 D3 G3 B3 E4).

There are a few luthiers I know of in my country, but I'm not sure if they're the right people to go to about an ERCG. I was advised to go visit a shop of the luthier before committing, and so...

1. How can I tell if the luthier has the required aptitude to make such an instrument?
2. What all am I supposed to look out for when visiting a luthier?

Please bear with me if you think they are newbie questions =\
I'd be very grateful for some input. Thanks!


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## Winspear (Jan 9, 2013)

Bartolex seems the go to and sell various 10 string models regularly at an extended scale. 
I don't know about custom luthiers - sorry.

I have been researching tunings and strings for nylons for a while now, though - for an electric piezo pickup nylon strung hollowbody, so can tell you some about the tunings and such.

Firstly, you will not reach A4 with standard nylon strings without going very short scale (22" or less). There are guitarists doing this, but they are using materials like carbon and titanium with a much brighter tone. It's an option to bear in mind - they are much stronger even than plain steel electric strings (which can still _barely_ reach A4 on 25.5" scale). The most popular product in fact seems to be a precisely gauged Japanese fishing line. You wont struggle to find info on that on google from various forums. 

So, you can achieve A4 if you use these strings. If not, you'll need to use a very short scale length. This proposes trouble for the bass strings....

Even on a standard 25.5", tuning so low in the bass is an issue. Most extended range classical guitars use small scalar intervals in the bass, such as:
A B C D EADGBE - effectively only the range of a 7 string drop tuned guitar. 

Using silverwound nylon bass strings such as those sold by D'addario (down to gauge 56), tuning below B is still an issue. Said 56 gauge can just about tune to B on a standard scale and just about have as much tension as is common and sounds ok on classical guitar. I do not recommend going looser. 

I am unaware if there are heavier materials (more tension per gauge) to use in the low end. There are companies selling heavier strings. I've just ordered gauges from 70 to 80 from LaBella, silverwound on nylon basses. Part number WS080. Given the tensions of the D'addarios (56 for B) I do not expect that this string will be able to tune much below Ab. 

Perhaps you have heard of multiscale guitars or fanned frets. I highly recommend them for such tuning ranges. However, even with a multiscale say from 25-28", that only gives the strings an extra 2 semitones tension range on the low end. 
Your tunings are incredibly low and I don't think you are ever going to get a good sound like that with nylon strings. I would reconsider your ideas. 
I am unaware of nylon products used for instruments like double basses that you may be able to retrofit onto a guitar, but the tone is still going to be an issue in those tunings unless going to a particularly long scale length, like a double bass 40". After all, they only tune to E1! Tuning much below B on an electric amplified bass guitar proposes enough issues, let alone acoustic instruments with much looser strings.

I would suggest looking into one of the following ideas:
F#BEADGBEA - multiscale from 28 to 25 inches using carbon trebles and the LaBella WS080 bass, for example. I do not think you will ever achieve good results on a nylon stringed instrument tuned as low as you propose without going into 30"+ scale ranges. 

GABDEADGBEA - same as above. 


GABDEADGBE or F#BEADGBE - possible on a straight-fretted baritone classical guitar in the 28" range. Bartolex sell plenty of straight fretted 10 string guitars that would be perfect for these tunings. 

They have a couple of fanned fret models that you would want to find the scale lengths of by contacting them. I do not recommend attempting to tune below 8 string standard F#1 above bass E whatsoever unless you find something above 28".


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## Winspear (Jan 9, 2013)

I should also add that your budget is incredibly unrealistic for a custom of that measure. It will afford a Bartolex, though.


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## Trespass (Jan 9, 2013)

Keep in mind that this is an acoustic instrument. If you add more strings to a top, you have to compensate in the design of the body so it doesn't implode.

This sounds easy enough, until you realize the level of R&D it would require to find the right top/side/back thicknesses, the style and thickness of bracing, etc. so the instrument doesn't sound like a dead plank.


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## Winspear (Jan 9, 2013)

^ +1, even if you do somehow find a luthier at such a low price, I wouldn't do this unless he's built at least several ERGs before. Bartolex is almost certainly your best bet.


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## Contrapunctus (Jan 10, 2013)

Thank you for your inputs, EtherealEntity and Trespass. For some reason, even though I stay tuned on what I think is Cathedral/Bartolex's ebay page, they seem to have stopped releasing guitars - because they were originally my first option (I'm preferring to keep it cheaper, because as such this is my first guitar after my - don't laugh - Yamaha C70. I've been through Trinity Grade 1 through 8 on that, and I'm determined to upgrade to a basic 10 string.). Although I just checked again and it seems some new pieces have been released...alright! 

I'm aware of the usual 10 string classical guitar tunings...and I did suspect the tuning problems pointed out. The reason I'm going for an extended range instrument is so that I may fret notes of the bass (E2-E3) and the contrabass (E1-E2) register even if I'm playing at higher frets. The tuning I mentioned should give me notes from E1 onwards at frets III and VIII, and notes from E2 onwards at frets 0, V, and X (among other less important places). My aim is that the instrument (and the player's technique) should be able to play anything (like piano, organ, or orchestral works) without any retuning the instrument or editing the music (not sure to what extent this is possible, and I understand that I may not acheive it on this budget and on my first ERCG itself; but FWIW this is my aim.). What would you suggest I do in light of this aim?

Anyway...I can see one forgoing the Ab0. The argument being that the A4 coupled with the Db1 should give me a pretty wide range of notes per fret/'position', and the bass problem would be contained, if only a little. Another option is to forgo the contrabass range (one could argue that contrabass is as such just doubled under the bass (cello) in an orchestra, and is therefore somewhat expendable), and make do with a relatively frugal 8 or 9 string instrument - the suggested F#B-EADGBE or F#B-EADGBE-A.

I have no aversion to multiscale other than price. Wouldn't multiscale significantly bump it up? (I can't seem to see any Cathedral/Bartolex multiscales up at the moment so I'm afraid I can't tell).

Any other inputs on the questions regarding luthiers in (the now rare) case I do need to resort to a luthier?

Thank you for your time and patience.


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## Winspear (Jan 10, 2013)

I understand your aims - Very similar to how I feel about my 9 string electric. 

If you look on Bartolex website Home Page it appears they are finishing up guitars soon that are available to buy. I don't think they have stopped building, as the website was completely hauled over about 6 months ago if I remember correctly.
I have no idea the price increase of their multiscales but I doubt it's much. From what I understand it's not so difficult and it certainly doesn't cost more than a couple of hundred extra from most electric luthiers at least.

The high A would be very useful. I am currently arranging a piano piece on my electric 9 where the highest parts extend well above A6 and the range of A5 is frequently used. However that would certainly require a carbon string or shortscale. I'm hoping to achieve Ab4 with 22" ordinary strings. 

I don't know how things are in India but I have never heard of custom built acoustics or classicals, especially of such exotic nature, going much below $9000. I am sure there are small local luthiers often working without websites for lower prices - but as mentioned, one can't simply add strings to an acoustic instrument without experience in the construction differences. 

Based around my suggestion of being able to just about achieve F# with the Labella 80 gauge at 28", getting down to the next C# would take quite a gauge increase or scale increase. I'm sure there are strings for some kind of instrument that would work but they will be hard to find and expensive I presume...
Even a string designed for bass E on a double bass (40") would only achieve A on a 28" at a similar tension, for example.

Aside from multiscale, extended notes behind the nut is an option. There are 11 string guitars available for that on bartolex website right now. 
It says it's meant to be tuned in G. I presume that's G in the bass, but it could also be high G as it looks shorter...
There are 5 added frets behind the nut for the lowest string. I am assuming the scale for this guitar is roughly 23". This would make the bottom string 30". I still wouldn't recommend tuning that below E with the 80 gauge string, but like I said - perhaps there are others available.
That fretting system will give you the range of those open notes if you wish, but as you can see it will change the fretting positions drastically. Tuning might work out very different on this. 

In my opinion your best bet is to contact Bartolex directly, and find out what your options are given your goals. I would perhaps stop thinking about precise details for now and instead find a guitar and then see how you can tune it.

I would give up the idea of 4ths tuning beyond 8 strings (unless going to put a high A on, in which case 9). 
If that 11 string can indeed hold a high G, an ideal tuning might be:
EF#ABDGCFADG

That kind of extended multiscale system allows the longest strings in the low end but you can see you'll end up with a lot of relearning of the position of fretted notes in the bass strings when they are laid out like that 11 string...
That fretting system will allow you to tune lower than the straight fretted 10 string at the bottom of their website, though.

I really don't think you are going to achieve good results tuning any lower than that with nylon strings on an acoustic instrument at this kind of scale length.

Welcome to the wacky world of ERGs where strings, tunings, and guitar design become an absolute nightmare 

Definitely hit up this forum to find obscure information on strings, as well as communicate with Extended range classical players http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewforum.php?f=43

Another useful link http://www.cathedralguitar.com/


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## Winspear (Jan 10, 2013)

Hey look! BARTOLEX Alto 11-String Guitar with, Cutaway, Sound Port!! 
21.6" to 28.8"
You could tune that EF#ABEADGBEA with the Labella 80 gauge bass and thin rectified trebles I am fairly sure. Certainly Ab4 if not. Very good price! (($2100) Have a think about how the notes would map on on the basses. 
The good thing about having bass strings tuned in small intervals is that - as stated in your goal to fret bass notes at various places on the neck - there is likely an open string in a suitable tuning available.


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## Contrapunctus (Jan 10, 2013)

Thank you, EtherealEntity...this thread is rather enlightening 

I must've missed Bartolex's overhauled site...sweet!

Tuning basses stepwise...I've always frowned on it, thinking it was for folks who like to use open bass strings, and I've always preferred sequential tunings for the straightaway simplicity/logic of layout, but now that I think about it...it's actually pretty cool, because if I understand them correctly, stepwise tuned basses should actually open up so many fretting possibilities for bass notes! No awkward stretching and jumping around! 

Extended notes behind the nut - if I understand them correctly, won't they significantly add to the confusion and clutter of the layout? =\ Assuming that 11 string altoguitar is tuned GABCD EADGBE...won't that C play a C when not fretted, but act like it's tuned D when fretted? Won't the open B act like a D, the A like a C#, the G like a C? If so...it's fricken' convoluted. 
They'd also counteract the aforementioned benefit of tuning basses stepwise, unless one tunes the example instrument to something like...in this case, DFAbBbD EADGBE, so that one actually gets the fretboard layout of ABCD 

Regarding CG luthiers in India, there's DGC ( http://dehradunguitars.com/ ), who say that they can do the 11 string for 2.9k USD; Arul Xavier ( http://arulguitars.com/ ) - I'm not sure but I think he'd charge about 5-6k USD; and Alexandre Letellier/Nouvelle Luthierie Lab ( http://www.facebook.com/NouvelleLutherieLab ), who I am told would charge over 6k USD.
There's Erisa Neogy ( http://www.facebook.com/eneogy ) as well, whom I have unfortunately never contacted.
Only the first was in my price range and even so they were kind of suspect (somewhat young company, and I don't know how much ERG work they've done)...and when I realized Bartolex was active, it was an obvious choice. Although there's nothing quite like having the luthier living nearby - direct customer service and no shipping 



EtherealEntity said:


> I would perhaps stop thinking about precise details for now and instead find a guitar and then see how you can tune it.


That was exactly my intention with my first ERCG - experiment with tunings. I guess I'll contact Bartolex. I should probably be looking at a 10 or 11 string guitar, either single scale or a multiscale which can accommodate a high A (no frets behind nut, it seems), and, separately...research+experiment with special strings for the high A.


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## Winspear (Jan 10, 2013)

You're right about the frets behind the nut. The most basic extension common on electrics is a 7th string 2 fret extension tuned to A for example, to get the range of drop A but the fretting patterns of B standard. 
With some careful thought I suppose you could make it work in a useful way. With regards to step tuning on a shorter, single scale, you are again left with the problem of string tension tuning down so low. 
If I were going to go for a single scale or normal multiscale (no frets behind nut), I would stick with a 10 string as it's going to be hard enough to get strings working at that range already. The huge 8" span of the 11 string would work very well but as you've identified, it might not be for you. 

I'd see what the widest fanned 10 string is that they can offer you. If not its a case of trying to make something work on a single scale. 

I'm sure they have suggestions of strings - I know there are more obscure brands with hard-to-find information selling strings for harp guitars and such..but once again they rarely tune so low. 

Some interesting looking luthiers there and good to see a much cheaper offer. Sure the construction might end up fine - but there's the question; What can they offer that Bartolex can't? I do understand the locality being nice, of course.

Let me know what you find, I'm very interested!


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## Winspear (Jan 10, 2013)

I'll be back in here later today with the breaking tension info of rectified nylons at various gauges 

I also suggest using existing strings on a regular guitar to find the lowest tension you will be satisfied with on the basses. Classical guitars are usually anywhere between 13 and 16lbs tension on each string. 

D'addario offer string weight data for their strings in a PDF online, the formula is
T=UWx(2xLxF)^2/386.4

Tension = (Unit weight x (2 x Scale length inches x Frequency ) Squared) / 386.4

This will give tension in lbs

For example the D'addario thickest bass NYL056W at drop A:
(.00059624 x (2 x 25.5 x 55 ) ^2 / 386.4
Giving 12.1lbs - maybe just about manageable but tone wont project very much...

This also means you can take it to Ab at 27", G at 28.625", F# at 30" with the same tension.

They do infact show most tunings readily calculated for 25.5" in the PDF
http://daddario.com/upload/tension_chart_13934.pdf

Knowing your preferences, you then can know roughly what gauges to use for various tunings and determine what scale lengths will be necessary.


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## Winspear (Jan 10, 2013)

I thought about what I would do in your situation and came up with this tuning
F# A C# EADGBE A
which would probably be good with the LaBella 080 at 27" and carbon trebles, fanned to shorter high end would be good - I don't know just how strong that fishing line is.
You can see the bottom 7 strings of that below.







Tuning down in regular intervals such as C#A#G EADGBEA is another option in which the open strings may be less useful but facilitates some different fingerings.
I really thing something like these is your best bet  A baritone 10 string tuned as low as the LaBella WS080 can go, with carbon trebles. You will need to ask around about those trebles to find out their strength - there is a yahoo discussion link on the Cathedral Guitar website which you should sign up to, they will definitely be able to help you. Maybe link to this thread.


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## Winspear (Jan 11, 2013)

Good news for you
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/ja...uning-above-e4-great-results.html#post3354750

The results are much better than the string I tried before and it seems the carbon strings people are using aren't ENTIRELY necessary. Hopefully this thread is helpful to you.

I'd still recommend not tuning that thin string quite to high A unless your scale length is 24.5" or below...But it's fine in Ab.
Any longer I'd stick with the carbon idea


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## Contrapunctus (Jan 11, 2013)

I've been visualizing some pieces on the GABCD EADGBE and ABCD EADGBE A tunings, and I think both of them are pretty good, and nearly evenly matched in benefits. Not much need for something radically different, unless practical experience with these tunings proves me wrong...in which case I'll test the ones you suggest.

I also saw Goran Sollscher's vids again, just to see how he does his stuff...just what the heck is his 12 string guitar tuned to? 

Regarding tension - ah man, I'm afraid I've always been very bad at tension and gauge and stuff. I'll have to try... =\ 
Tension preferences...I don't think I'll like it any looser than D2 on my guitar, which I'm guessing has a 25.75" scale, so...
Minimal tension I like -
(.00031726*(2*25.75*73.4)^2)/386.4 = 11.73
So I guess 11.73~14.78 (what I get on E2) is acceptable.

Great job on the breaking tests. I don't think I'd mind carbon, would have to hear them first. Doing a half-job and tuning to Ab4 because of limitations of physics would be a greater bugger, due to the confusion because of inconsistent intervals in tuning - first the B3, then the ABCD, and now an Ab4! =\

It seems to me, unless I misunderstand you. that the main problem is of available strings not being thick enough. Wouldn't these do for the basses? 841 Doublebass Guitar | Strings By Mail
There be a 0.098 among them...wouldn't that safely land one at at G1? It'd reduce the need for a huge fan width, and could even make a single scale work*. @[email protected]
(My apologies if I misunderstood something!)

Regarding luthiers, I'd really prefer Bartolex. I'm not exactly rich and therefore, as of now, can ill afford to risk money anywhere else, and don't require need the big-money stuff (USD 4.5k+), either - that's for later. 

Have written to B'lex. Awaiting response. 

*I think I'd rather avoid multiscale for this one if I could. I still need to do my Trinity diploma, and I don't think they'll allow ERCGs for the exam. Which means I'll have to give my exam on a regular classical...which is fine until I have to switch back and forth between a multiscale and a single scale...ouch.


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## Winspear (Jan 11, 2013)

Yep 11-14 is very typical classical guitar range 

You'll find it more important on the lowest strings to be tighter, so I'd aim for 13lbs for the very low notes. 

Nice - I hadn't found a website that showed the gauges of double bass strings. Of course they aren't super thick being only tuned to E at 40", but 98 is certainly an improvement over 80. We don't know the unit weight of these strings but we can assume E1 will not be a problem tension wise at a scale around 28" - it's just a question of tone. Slightly higher will likely be better. 

If you're avoiding multiscale then slightly shorter (I think a lot of the Barts are around 26.5") and higher (G) will be better, also with use of the carbon highs. 

Like I said before - just get a guitar and then see what you can do with it, I guess! At least this little knowledge will help you have some idea. Finding that double bass string opens up some more possibilities at least. 

I will say going between multiscale and standard is no problem at all - I play a 9 string 24.75"-29.25" which is pretty extreme, and have no problem on single scale guitars besides realising how much better multi is for the tone, haha. Bartolex fans are also nowhere near as extreme, more like 2" span - which will still open up a few semitones extra range.


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## WaffleTheEpic (Jan 11, 2013)

I just wanna interject a little because I love reading threads like this, and I read through that Bartolex 11 string because it's fascinating as hell. Also wanted to know the projected price. xD

Saw this:
"Several excellent string manufacturers offer 10-string sets, including D'Addario, Hannabach, and Savarez. LaBella also makes a 10-string set but I do not recommend it, because the low basses are too weak"

Might try Hannabach and Savarez?


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## Alexandre Letellier (Jan 13, 2013)

Contrapunctus said:


> Thank you, EtherealEntity...this thread is rather enlightening
> 
> 
> Regarding CG luthiers in India, there's DGC ( Dehradun Guitar Company | ), who say that they can do the 11 string for 2.9k USD; Arul Xavier ( - :: Welcome to Arul Guitars :: ) - I'm not sure but I think he'd charge about 5-6k USD; and Alexandre Letellier/Nouvelle Luthierie Lab ( http://www.facebook.com/NouvelleLutherieLab ), who I am told would charge over 6k USD.
> There's Erisa Neogy ( http://www.facebook.com/eneogy ) as well, whom I have unfortunately never contacted.


 Hi everybody,

Woohoo who said I would charge over 6k for what ??


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## Contrapunctus (Jan 14, 2013)

I wanted to post back after I received a reply from Bartolex, but mane, so far, no response =( Even the 10 string guitar Yahoo group seems to have ignored my post. Weird. -_-

I think I might start another thread here WRT tunings.

Anyway, yeah, WaffleTheEpic, those 10 string sets would certainly be useful. And the LaBella ones really do have really crappy gauges.



Alexandre Letellier said:


> Hi everybody,





Alexandre Letellier said:


> Woohoo who said I would charge over 6k for what ??


...in retrospect, it was probably someone who clearly shouldn't have been taken seriously.


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## Winspear (Jan 18, 2013)

Good news - the Labella WS080 arrived and it's perfectly suitable for 25" F# / 26.5" F / 28" E ! It's a surprisingly heavy and bright string that didn't sound at all out of place with the nickelwound strings on the rest of the guitar I tried it on!

Have you heard anything back yet?

The performance of this string and the trebles I tested then opens up the option of tunings such as F#ABD EADGBE A on a _single scale_ 25" 11 string. Very awesome. (I'd watch out for that A though - it's still iffy, and quiet at best with the thinnest strings. Shorter or slightly lower would be best).

With regards to thinner other low strings if you would like to use D'addarios like me (going to buy D'addarios for ADGCFADG and Labella for a low E), they sell a 58 and a 60 which are listed in store but not in the tension PDF. Strings weights are
NYL058W = .0005945007
NYL060W = .0006376551


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## Contrapunctus (Jan 19, 2013)

Nice to hear about the strings, will check that out. A key consideration for me getting an ERCG is also going to be whether or not I can order from stringsbymail - I tried once, everything was in place, and it was...mysteriously blocked by the bank! About time I had a word with the bank folks. >_<

Not a word from Bartolex. Which is okay, I had a word with Mr. Letellier and will, in all likelihood, go with him. Check out his work - http://www.facebook.com/NouvelleLutherieLab?ref=ts&fref=ts
Probably what the doctor ordered for guys who want 'spec-op' instruments 

He'll charge 4k USD. Which is fine too, I'll just have to save up some more.

I'm also almost convinced about making it a 12. The low G is important, the C is critical for some fingerings (you cannot play Satie's Gymnopedie No. 1 without it, although I realize one can also just tune the B up for that...but it's better to have everything on the board without retuning), ditto the high A.

Now all that's left is to wait and save up ^^

Thank you very much for your help with this, Ethereal


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