# Neural: Archetype John Petrucci



## Deadpool_25 (Dec 14, 2021)

Definitely curious what it is.

I’m sure Emperoff is excited the mostest though


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## Emperoff (Dec 14, 2021)

Deadpool_25 said:


> View attachment 101110
> 
> 
> Definitely curious what it is.
> ...



As long as the Polyphia guys are not involved, for sure


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## youngthrasher9 (Dec 14, 2021)

Deadpool_25 said:


> View attachment 101110
> 
> 
> Definitely curious what it is.
> ...


I’ll be damned if that’s not purple. I don’t know what that means but mama taught me my colors.


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## Xaios (Dec 14, 2021)




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## Deadpool_25 (Dec 14, 2021)

What are those three little LEDs on the bottom right of the head?


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## Crungy (Dec 14, 2021)

That's what I was wondering!


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## Emperoff (Dec 14, 2021)

Deadpool_25 said:


> What are those three little LEDs on the bottom right of the head?



Hmmm maybe...?






Or perhaps...


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## MetalDaze (Dec 14, 2021)

Still no way to load plugins on the QC.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 14, 2021)

Emperoff said:


> Hmmm maybe...?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Engl was honestly the first thing that came to mind.


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## technomancer (Dec 14, 2021)

Emperoff said:


> Hmmm maybe...?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If it's the Herbert somebody needs to work on their art skills... they are the full width of a 4x12


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## Kyle Jordan (Dec 14, 2021)

They tagged Fortin in the post on Instagram and he replied with flames ().

Meathead?


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## Emperoff (Dec 14, 2021)

Kyle Jordan said:


> They tagged Fortin in the post on Instagram and he replied with flames()
> 
> Meathead?


YAWN.


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## narad (Dec 14, 2021)

Kyle Jordan said:


> They tagged Fortin in the post on Instagram and he replied with flames ().



Oh, probably one of those Larry amps then ;-)


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 14, 2021)

narad said:


> Oh, probably one of those Larry amps then ;-)



No lie, if they ever did this, I'll take back every shitty thing I said about Neural.


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## Mathemagician (Dec 14, 2021)

MetalDaze said:


> Still no way to load plugins on the QC.



No uniform way to play with various options and settings keeps me away. But the fact that you can’t do it on their own hardware is much worse.


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## Kyle Jordan (Dec 15, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> No lie, if they ever did this, I'll take back every shitty thing I said about Neural.



A Dino or the Schaefer sig would likely get my money. Then again, I thought the same thing about the NTS and ended up being disappointed by that plug-in.


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## GunpointMetal (Dec 15, 2021)

Maybe they finally got all the launch features they advertised for their hardware ready.


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## DeathByButterslax (Dec 15, 2021)

I am prepared to be very welmed


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## Emperoff (Dec 15, 2021)

The new picture is even darker, but the led row is brighter so that's clearly the giveaway (whatever it is).


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## Lorcan Ward (Dec 15, 2021)

This reminds me I still haven’t checked out the Gojira Archetype. On FB someone pointed out the Joey Sturgis Misha Mansoor plug-in has been taken off the site so my guess is a Misha Archetype unless he is planning something with GGD. 



MetalDaze said:


> Still no way to load plugins on the QC.



They really shouldn’t have announced that as a feature. It caused so much trouble and as you said it’s still not implemented if it even will be anytime soon.


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## broangiel (Dec 15, 2021)

Lorcan Ward said:


> This reminds me I still haven’t checked out the Gojira Archetype. On FB someone pointed out the Joey Sturgis Misha Mansoor plug-in has been taken off the site so my guess is a Misha Archetype unless he is planning something with GGD.
> 
> 
> 
> They really shouldn’t have announced that as a feature. It caused so much trouble and as you said it’s still not implemented if it even will be anytime soon.


If they omitted all the “not ready” stuff from their announcements, there wouldn’t have been much to announce in the first place.


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## CanserDYI (Dec 15, 2021)

Yeah a Misha Archetype makes sense to me. One I definitely won't be buying, as I found Archetype Nolly and Plini get pretty much every sound Id ever need.


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## eaeolian (Dec 15, 2021)

GunpointMetal said:


> Maybe they finally got all the launch features they advertised for their hardware ready.



That's just crazy talk.


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## Kyle Jordan (Dec 15, 2021)

I’m still going with a Meathead. I’m HOPING they pull the swerve of swerves and the pic is meaningless, allowing them to unveil an Ultra Lead sim.


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## KnightBrolaire (Dec 15, 2021)

Kyle Jordan said:


> I’m still going with a Meathead. I’m HOPING they pull the swerve of swerves and the pic is meaningless, allowing them to unveil an Ultra Lead sim.


reamp studio has a UL sim already fyi. It's pretty good with third party IRs. It would be interesting to see another UL sim on the market tho


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## technomancer (Dec 15, 2021)

GunpointMetal said:


> Maybe they finally got all the launch features they advertised for their hardware ready.



Why do the hard engineering to do all of that when you can just tweak your plugin params again, slap a new name on, and roll in more cash?


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## katsumura78 (Dec 15, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> Yeah a Misha Archetype makes sense to me. One I definitely won't be buying, as I found Archetype Nolly and Plini get pretty much every sound Id ever need.



Well Misha’s toneforge plug-in got an update recently so probably not an archetype for him. Rabea would be a cool one, Aaron Marshall maybe? At this point they’ve covered a lot of ground with modern high gain so I hope it’s actually something worth while.


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## Emperoff (Dec 15, 2021)

katsumura78 said:


> Well Misha’s toneforge plug-in got an update recently so probably not an archetype for him. Rabea would be a cool one, Aaron Marshall maybe? At this point they’ve covered a lot of ground with modern high gain so I hope it’s actually something worth while.



Doing a Rabea Archetype would be kinda pointless since he just uses the Kraken VX100. It would make more sense to release it as a single amp "suite" instead. That would definetely see my money, though.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 15, 2021)

Emperoff said:


> Doing a Rabea Archetype would be kinda pointless since he just uses the Kraken VX100. It would make more sense to release it as a single amp "suite" instead. That would definetely see my money, though.



He actually uses more than the Kraken. He also uses a 5150, JVM, and JCM900


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## Emperoff (Dec 15, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> He actually uses more than the Kraken. He also uses a 5150, JVM, and JCM900



Recording... Maybe, but still... I rarely see him playing anything else than the Kraken (or the Kemper). The Kraken is supposed to (sorta) bundle the tones of the amps you mentioned in a single amp. Live he uses two of them in stereo with a bunch of fuzz pedals. I'd find far more interesting to have a Kraken suite that another damn 5150 sim. NeuralDSP alone has three of them already.

Seriously, I hope they do something different this time. Archetype: Cory Wong was very, very cool (it has the best clean ampsim I've heard in VST format). Please no more 5150s.


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## narad (Dec 16, 2021)

Emperoff said:


> Please no more 5150s.


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## MrWulf (Dec 16, 2021)

yeah let's have an amp that is not a derivative of 5150 for once. We have like what, 3 of them in various forms already?


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## Flappydoodle (Dec 16, 2021)

The world really doesn't need ANOTHER periphery-related product, lol. The GGD stuff is nice, I guess. But the Misha ToneForge was really shit and those guys are total endorsement whores and will throw their name at anything, lol.

Fortin, again, I'm kinda over it. Nameless, NTS and Cali really seems like "enough"

There's still no *good* Mesa Rectifier sim out there IMO. So I'd be more excited for that. 

ENGL or Diezel sim would be cool and I'd definitely check it out. STL had a go at Diezel in the Will Putney and Lasse Lammert suites, but I'm sure Neural can do it better. ENGL I haven't really seen since those in plugin form since the free LePou stuff.


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## KnightBrolaire (Dec 16, 2021)

Flappydoodle said:


> The world really doesn't need ANOTHER periphery-related product, lol. The GGD stuff is nice, I guess. But the Misha ToneForge was really shit and those guys are total endorsement whores and will throw their name at anything, lol.
> 
> Fortin, again, I'm kinda over it. Nameless, NTS and Cali really seems like "enough"
> 
> ...


UAD/plugin alliance have licensed ENGL and Diezel sims fyi.


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## profwoot (Dec 16, 2021)

The PA ENGL Savage is great, although I do wish STL or NDSP would do one since I think the PA sims all sound slightly dull (I nevertheless have half a dozen of them at least and they're definitely good enough in the mix).


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## Emperoff (Dec 16, 2021)

Flappydoodle said:


> The world really doesn't need ANOTHER periphery-related product, lol. The GGD stuff is nice, I guess. But the Misha ToneForge was really shit and those guys are total endorsement whores and will throw their name at anything, lol.
> 
> Fortin, again, I'm kinda over it. Nameless, NTS and Cali really seems like "enough"
> 
> ...



Mercuriall has a pretty Killer sim of the E530 preamp.


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## Flappydoodle (Dec 16, 2021)

KnightBrolaire said:


> UAD/plugin alliance have licensed ENGL and Diezel sims fyi.



Yeah, I played both and they sound pretty terrible IMO. Noisy. Noise gate sucks. Cabinet impulses are very "meh".

But if this is a Neural "archetype" rather than an official model, then they could do Diezel or ENGL (like how Nolly was blatantly a 5150)


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## sakeido (Dec 16, 2021)

these LEDs are fairly unique, aren't they? should be easy to guess the amp...



Flappydoodle said:


> Yeah, I played both and they sound pretty terrible IMO. Noisy. Noise gate sucks. Cabinet impulses are very "meh".
> 
> But if this is a Neural "archetype" rather than an official model, then they could do Diezel or ENGL (like how Nolly was blatantly a 5150)



the Plugin Alliance built in impulses are just horrific. Plugins sound good if you use other ones. I actually use the Engl Retro Tube on an album and loved the tone. Really makes me wanna get the real amp.. very cool and unique sound.


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## guitar_player4_2_0 (Dec 16, 2021)

I’ve gotta say, pretty excited for this.


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## Deadpool_25 (Dec 16, 2021)

sakeido said:


> these LEDs are fairly unique, aren't they? should be easy to guess the amp...
> 
> 
> 
> the Plugin Alliance built in impulses are just horrific. Plugins sound good if you use other ones. I actually use the Engl Retro Tube on an album and loved the tone. Really makes me wanna get the real amp.. very cool and unique sound.



That amp head is white isn’t it?


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## Emperoff (Dec 16, 2021)

Honestly there is no point in guessing. Archetypes always have a custom appearance that has absolutely nothing to do with the real amps.

I mean Plini's clean amp is based on the JC-120 and the ampUI has a load of tubes and three giant transformers in it.


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## CanserDYI (Dec 16, 2021)

Emperoff said:


> Honestly there is no point in guessing. Archetypes always have a custom appearance that has absolutely nothing to do with the real amps.
> 
> I mean Plini's clean amp is based on the JC-120 and the ampUI has a load of tubes and three giant transformers in it.


Yeah but the ones modeling a real amp like the fortins and omegas and Soldano's all used the real amp head as the UI. So you're right, but if they are modeling a real amp suite then I'd say it is worthwhile speculating  maybe not worthwhile, but not pointless.


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## Emperoff (Dec 16, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> Yeah but the ones modeling a real amp like the fortins and omegas and Soldano's all used the real amp head as the UI. So you're right, but if they are modeling a real amp suite then I'd say it is worthwhile speculating  maybe not worthwhile, but not pointless.



If you look at the three pictures side by side, the "tolex" has three different colors (purple, white and black). The handles are also different. 

It's not an amp suite.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 16, 2021)

Emperoff said:


> If you look at the three pictures side by side, the "tolex" has three different colors (purple, white and black). The handles are also different.
> 
> It's not an amp suite.



damn, dunno how I didnt notice it but now I see it. 

First one's purple, 2nd ones black, 3rd one's white/silver.


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## CanserDYI (Dec 16, 2021)

Emperoff said:


> If you look at the three pictures side by side, the "tolex" has three different colors (purple, white and black). The handles are also different.
> 
> It's not an amp suite.


Good point!


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## Turd Ferguson (Dec 16, 2021)

Randall Smith Gibsons.


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## Deadpool_25 (Dec 16, 2021)

White, purple, and black.

Hmmm….

Archetype: Danish Pete?

Archetype: Prince?


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## Deadpool_25 (Dec 17, 2021)

I am seriously thinking Aaron Marshall. He’s been working with NDSP a lot. He used all NDSP plugins on the new album, has some interesting effects that could be a unique twist for his Archetype, is running three QCs on his tour (one for each guitar, one for bass), etc.


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## Kyle Jordan (Dec 17, 2021)

^That would be cool to see Aaron get his own Archetype suite.

He also just popped up on Beato's channel with a video thumbnail titled "The latest in Modern Guitar Sounds".


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## Stiman (Dec 17, 2021)

My guess would be Aaron Marshall as well. He's been on a podcast with NDSP (more than once?) And I got the vibe that they were working on something together.


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## Deadpool_25 (Dec 17, 2021)

Kyle Jordan said:


> ^That would be cool to see Aaron get his own Archetype suite.
> 
> He also just popped up on Beato's channel with a video thumbnail titled "The latest in Modern Guitar Sounds".



Yup. Just watched the Beato vid. Another reason I think it’s probably his Archetype. We should know pretty soon I guess. Supposed to announce today I think


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## Deadpool_25 (Dec 17, 2021)

Oh, they’re premiering it in 10 minutes


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## Deadpool_25 (Dec 17, 2021)

Holy fuck


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## Kyle Jordan (Dec 17, 2021)

Oh shit...

Did not expect that. But it makes me quite intrigued and happy.


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## Deadpool_25 (Dec 17, 2021)

Kyle Jordan said:


> Oh shit...
> 
> Did not expect that. But it makes me quite intrigued and happy.



Totally unexpected. Honestly, I don’t think I’ll get it but that’s pretty huge for them. And puts some more variety into the lineup.


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## Kyle Jordan (Dec 17, 2021)

Deadpool_25 said:


> Totally unexpected. Honestly, I don’t think I’ll get it but that’s pretty huge for them. And puts some more variety into the lineup.



Exactly. Being the Mark series fan I am, this has me almost instantly wanting to take it for a spin. Some of the effects look really neat too. 

This kind of reminds me of old wrestling when someone would jump promotions.


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## Metropolis (Dec 17, 2021)

I didn't see this coming...


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## CanserDYI (Dec 17, 2021)

Wow definitely didn't expect Petrucci....pretty stoked ngl


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## Alberto7 (Dec 17, 2021)

Aaagghhh fuck, I was being pretty good about convincing myself I didn't want or need any other plugins. Now I want this one, probably don't need it. Will probably get it anyways  let's see how the trial goes.

Was not expecting a Trooch archetype! He'd mentioned NDSP in a few interviews, and he'd also mentioned that Myung used some NDSP plugins in the new DT album, but he seemed to be riding the Boogie JP-2C wave pretty hard.


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## guitar_player4_2_0 (Dec 17, 2021)

Sweeeeeet.


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## Kyle Jordan (Dec 17, 2021)

^I'm listening to the video again, and I'm wondering if the amps may be a bit more based on some of is Rectifier tones? The layouts certainly aren't classic Mark series, but that doesn't mean too much. 

On my headphones, I'm hearing a bit more wooliness and less focus in the rhythm distortion. Though, that's not much to go on.


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## Emperoff (Dec 17, 2021)

Someone said Petrucci since DT used a QC on their latest album, but then again everybody said someone different so somebody had to guess it right I guess (I didn't see this one coming either).

Saying this will sell like hot cakes is probably a massive understatement.


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## Lorcan Ward (Dec 17, 2021)

That is one packed archetype. piezo, clean, high-gain with a ton of effects before and after the amps, pitchshifter and even a metronome.


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## CanserDYI (Dec 17, 2021)

Looks like this one is more expensive than the past archetypes.


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Dec 17, 2021)

Interest, piqued.


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## Kyle Jordan (Dec 17, 2021)

Ola demo.



EDIT:

Yeah, I'm probably going to pick this up at some point. Sounds good and definitely Mark-y. Good feature set too.


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## lurè (Dec 17, 2021)

holy cow, it sounds so good.


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## cardinal (Dec 17, 2021)

Sounds great


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## StevenC (Dec 17, 2021)

Will be comparing this to my JP2C and Eventide later to see how it compares


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## 4Eyes (Dec 17, 2021)

I was definitely not in the market for the new plugin, but man... finally Archetype that has all the features anyone would ever need for all rock/metal tones


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## Alberto7 (Dec 17, 2021)

Lorcan Ward said:


> That is one packed archetype. piezo, clean, high-gain with a ton of effects before and after the amps, pitchshifter and even a metronome.



I so LOVE that it has a metronome. It was always a pain in the ass having to open a metronome on a separate software to practice.



StevenC said:


> Will be comparing this to my JP2C and Eventide later to see how it compares



Feedback on this, pls. Would be interesting to know.


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## DeathByButterslax (Dec 17, 2021)

I want an amp head that looks like the black one


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## CanserDYI (Dec 17, 2021)

Okay, just gave it a shot, and HOLY FUCK this plug in fucks. Man I dont really want to spend 150 bucks but might have to, this is too good. Might actually be able to separate my helix from my computer and run it in the band room and just have this plug in at my desk, its so damn good.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 17, 2021)

...Well. That's a massive surprise.  A welcome one at that. Wonder how this'll compare to ReAxis for Mark tones. 

I don't care about the Troochi attachment but goddamn that's a lot of shit in one plugin. Also I'm glad they tried to strip down and emulate a proper Mark series with the rhythm section. The bite + tight controls seem to react like a Mark 3-band.


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## Emperoff (Dec 17, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> Okay, just gave it a shot, and HOLY FUCK this plug in fucks. Man I dont really want to spend 150 bucks but might have to, this is too good.



Then don't. NDSP does 50% off deals several times a year.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 17, 2021)

Emperoff said:


> Then don't. NDSP does 50% off deals several times a year.



Might have to wait awhile though because I get the feeling NDSP will wait on putting this on sale since it's so new. And probably gonna sell like a motherfucker because of the Trooch name.


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## Emperoff (Dec 17, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Might have to wait awhile though because I get the feeling NDSP will wait on putting this on sale since it's so new. And probably gonna sell like a motherfucker because of the Trooch name.



Well, if you don't want to wait, then pay


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## CanserDYI (Dec 17, 2021)

I dont personally own any of the NDSP plugins, a few friends have the Nolly and Plini which I love, but I think this just blows both out of the water personally. The doubler sounds pretty good, like Ola said, nothing I'd really want to use on a record, I'd truly do a double take, but for playing around, man it sounds good. Kind of weird placement for the flanger and phaser and stuff if you ask me, I always put that stuff in the loop but still sounds good. The transpose section works pretty well too, not much artifacting left over after transposed its pretty decent. Still sucks out some top end out of the tone if you ask me, but definitely usable.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 17, 2021)

The transposer was pretty decent. I think that tone suck is unavoidable just due to the nature of how a pitch shifter works, but it still sounded decent. Not surprised to see they included a doubler since Petrucci always talks about how he used a very slight delay in his rig to emulate a doubled guitar. I do the same thing by either using the delay feature in some of the IR loader plugins I use or by using a fully wet 10ms delay in a stereo rig, so if I get this I don't have to go through all that hassle.


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## gunch (Dec 17, 2021)

Oh shit Verb the noun :O


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## Xaios (Dec 17, 2021)




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## Emperoff (Dec 17, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> Kind of weird placement for the flanger and phaser and stuff if you ask me, I always put that stuff in the loop but still sounds good.



Petrucci uses thoses effects in the front, so from an accuracy viewpoint it makes sense.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 17, 2021)

Emperoff said:


> Petrucci uses thoses effects in the front, so from an accuracy viewpoint it makes sense.


I do too.  Then again I come from the School of EVH when it comes to effects. So props to Neural for that.


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## Deadpool_25 (Dec 17, 2021)

Same. I like my modulation in front and delay/verb in the loop.


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## Emperoff (Dec 17, 2021)

You know, with a proper interface changing the order wouldn't be an issue. But you can fix this through the DAW. Let's see how:

Load two instances of the plugin.
- One of them using the preamp and effects that you want in the front. Everything else disabled.
- The other with the flanger/phaser, amp section disabled, cabinet section enabled.

Now @Deadpool_25 tell me if this is not bloody stupid, instead of just moving an FX block (which my Boss GT Editor from 2015 could already do).


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 17, 2021)

Actually that's why I like having two choruses and delays.  A chorus in the loop for that widening effect and a delay to add a bit of soundscape. And a chorus in front to add a bit of a dissonant modulating texture to the distortion and a front-end delay for those Wes Borland or The Edge style dotted notes.


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## Deadpool_25 (Dec 17, 2021)

Emperoff said:


> You know, with a proper interface changing the order wouldn't be an issue. But you can fix this through the DAW. Let's see how:
> 
> Load two instances of the plugin.
> - One of them using the preamp and effects that you want in the front. Everything else disabled.
> ...




Well, I wouldn’t say it’s “stupid” exactly but it would certainly be awesome to have. I’ve always agreed that I’d love them to make a suite where you could mix and match stuff from their plugins.


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## MrWulf (Dec 17, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> ...Well. That's a massive surprise.  A welcome one at that. Wonder how this'll compare to ReAxis for Mark tones.
> 
> I don't care about the Troochi attachment but goddamn that's a lot of shit in one plugin. Also I'm glad they tried to strip down and emulate a proper Mark series with the rhythm section. The bite + tight controls seem to react like a Mark 3-band.



gonna shoot them out for sure. But I think the ReAxis is drier while the Petrucci one is more saturated/wet. 

NGL I may have to splurge on this.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 17, 2021)

MrWulf said:


> gonna shoot them out for sure. But I think the ReAxis is drier while the Petrucci one is more saturated/wet.
> 
> NGL I may have to splurge on this.



Yeah it sounded like the Petrucci had significantly more gain in Ola's demo. Like jesus christ.


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## CanserDYI (Dec 17, 2021)

So after trying a recording of it, I can't bring one of the presets up to a level I like, showing between -30 and -18 db in reaper, and when I try to bring the level up with the output, it starts clipping and still showing around -18 in the daw....what am I doing wrong here?


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## MrWulf (Dec 17, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Yeah it sounded like the Petrucci had significantly more gain in Ola's demo. Like jesus christ.



The cab section is the most interesting though. First of all no SM57 but you have a bunch of non traditional mics, and then you also have room mics as well.


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## Metropolis (Dec 17, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> So after trying a recording of it, I can't bring one of the presets up to a level I like, showing between -30 and -18 db in reaper, and when I try to bring the level up with the output, it starts clipping and still showing around -18 in the daw....what am I doing wrong here?



I had a weird problem with iLok not being up to date, updated that and started my DAW again, then the plugin worked properly.


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## CanserDYI (Dec 17, 2021)

Metropolis said:


> I had a weird problem with iLok not being up to date, updated that and started my DAW again, then the plugin worked properly.


Yeah already had that issue too, this is after updating iLok.


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## Crungy (Dec 17, 2021)

I thought I was done using anything with an ilok but I might have to give this a sniff. Never thought they'd get someone like the P man!


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## MrWulf (Dec 17, 2021)

You dont need the actual dongle. Just an ilok account is enough


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## Crungy (Dec 17, 2021)

Even better!


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## guitar_player4_2_0 (Dec 17, 2021)

Are you guys digging it? Of course it gets released on the last day of the semester when all my projects are due and I have to work all day.


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## Crungy (Dec 17, 2021)

I was taking an endorsement of "it fucks" as good and am also considering it.


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## Masoo2 (Dec 17, 2021)

It's one of my favorite Neural DSP releases to date but I'd be lying if I said it sounds any better than the years of Axe FX patches with Petrucci's name on them lmao.

Timestamp 9:26


I do appreciate the inclusion of a simple pitch shifter, the various effects, and an amp meant for use with piezo though. By far the most feature-packed Neural DSP plugin to date and easily the one worth the cash if you're a fan of the sound/feel.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 17, 2021)

Masoo2 said:


> It's one of my favorite Neural DSP releases to date but I'd be lying if I said it sounds any better than the years of Axe FX patches with Petrucci's name on them lmao.
> 
> Timestamp 9:26
> 
> ...




I'll be honest even as someone that owns the Axe 3, I preferred the Neural over the IIC+ or JP2C models. I might not be dialing them in right but I feel they don't get as mean as the IV or TriAxis, and IMO the Neural sounds like it gets into Mark IV/TriAxis territory and above.


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## CanserDYI (Dec 17, 2021)

guitar_player4_2_0 said:


> Are you guys digging it? Of course it gets released on the last day of the semester when all my projects are due and I have to work all day.


Oh yes, in my opinion, best NDSP plug in yet, and only one to really make me consider dropping dough on it. 

I do find it reacts a bit, "compressor"y (i have no idea if this is the right term really) but, everything seems like a compressor pedal is on somewhere in the chain, which to me is basically every plug in, but I did have to check multiple times to make sure I had the onboard compressor off. Other than this little weird compressor style attack to the beginning of notes, it sounds absolutely amazing.


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## Metropolis (Dec 17, 2021)

To me amps sound really polished and compressed, might be a good thing in some situations or not. Effect section is solid as always. I'm just disappointed that there is no Mark series amplifiers, since it's Archetype: Petrucci. You can get Mark'ish tones out of those, but... what are they?


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## Emperoff (Dec 17, 2021)

If it sounds like a compressed Mark, it might very well sound like a Triaxis. Can't wait to compare them and see if it stands up.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 17, 2021)

I'm going out on a limb but I'm guessing they tried to tweak the Rhythm and Lead amps to SOUND like mark-series amps, but simplified the controls down. How often do you hear that the Mark-series amps are a nightmare to dial in? I mean, that isn't the case IMO, but I guess Neural and Petrucci wanted to dumb it down to not intimidate anyone.


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## CanserDYI (Dec 17, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I'm going out on a limb but I'm guessing they tried to tweak the Rhythm and Lead amps to SOUND like mark-series amps, but simplified the controls down. How often do you hear that the Mark-series amps are a nightmare to dial in? I mean, that isn't the case IMO, but I guess Neural and Petrucci wanted to dumb it down to not intimidate anyone.


I have a Mark V 25, and while if you read the manual its fine to dial in, its not the easiest to understand lol once you learn that turning one knob effects how other knobs work, it starts to make a little more sense, but that damn manual is necessary.


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## ManOnTheEdge (Dec 17, 2021)

I generally tend to use my plugins as my practice rig or just jamming ideas so having the doubler, room mic* and transpose are great additions 

*I also use ggd zilla so have some room mic blended irs set for headphone jamming already

Also what MIDI pedals are people using with their plugins? as I’d like to use the wah most of all


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 17, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> I have a Mark V 25, and while if you read the manual its fine to dial in, its not the easiest to understand lol once you learn that turning one knob effects how other knobs work, it starts to make a little more sense, but that damn manual is necessary.



I guess it did help that I knew what I was getting into before I bought one.  But yeah I really do feel like that's what the deal was when they designed this amp. The Tight knob seems like a simplified version of the 3 band EQ on a Mark, and the Bite control reminds me of the Bright switch.


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## Emperoff (Dec 17, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I'm going out on a limb but I'm guessing they tried to tweak the Rhythm and Lead amps to SOUND like mark-series amps, but simplified the controls down. How often do you hear that the Mark-series amps are a nightmare to dial in? I mean, that isn't the case IMO, but I guess Neural and Petrucci wanted to dumb it down to not intimidate anyone.



Mark series are actually pretty easy to dial in. You just need to understand pre-gain EQ and tell your brain that "5, 5, 5" settings are not going to work 

Rectos on the other hand...


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 17, 2021)

Emperoff said:


> Mark series are actually pretty easy to dial in. You just need to understand pre-gain EQ and tell your brain that "5, 5, 5" settings are not going to work
> 
> Rectos on the other hand...



That's what I mean. It CAN be easy to dial in. But I'm sure not every bedroom player knows that, so when they see a Petrucci plugin and wonder why their amp sounds like a muddy mess and not like The Count of Tuscany when they dial the bass up to like... 7 on the EQ knobs, I doubt Neural would want a lot of pissed off emails from these kinda guys.


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## KnightBrolaire (Dec 17, 2021)

Emperoff said:


> Mark series are actually pretty easy to dial in. You just need to understand pre-gain EQ and tell your brain that "5, 5, 5" settings are not going to work
> 
> Rectos on the other hand...


I get why they didn't base it directly off the mark tonestack. They can be confusing if you haven't read the manual or don't have experience with them. Dudes like kristian kohle and rabea didn't seem to understand that with the iicp synergy module and tried to dial them in like other amps, and got a ton of flak for it. Synergy had to put out a video explaining the tonestack and how it works lol


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## Emperoff (Dec 17, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> That's what I mean. It CAN be easy to dial in. But I'm sure not every bedroom player knows that, so when they see a Petrucci plugin and wonder why their amp sounds like a muddy mess and not like The Count of Tuscany when they dial the bass up to like... 7 on the EQ knobs, I doubt Neural would want a lot of pissed off emails from these kinda guys.



Of course. Any current amp design has to sound good at 5, 5, 5 since guitar players have become the equivalent of videogames with the arrow telling you where to go.



KnightBrolaire said:


> I get why they didn't base it directly off the mark tonestack. They can be confusing if you haven't read the manual or don't have experience with them. Dudes like kristian kohle and rabea didn't seem to understand that with the iicp synergy module and tried to dial them in like other amps, and got a ton of flak for it. Synergy had to put out a video explaining the tonestack and how it works lol



That's what you get when you demo something without reading the fucking manual


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## CanserDYI (Dec 17, 2021)

I personally think my mark v 25 was what got my ear really, really listening. I've owned plenty of amps before that amp, but reading the manual and working it realtime, its something else. It taught me a lot about sound and listening with your ears not your eyes.


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## Emperoff (Dec 17, 2021)




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## Wolfhorsky (Dec 17, 2021)

Emperoff said:


>


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 17, 2021)

But I like pre-gain tonestacks


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## Mathemagician (Dec 17, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I'm going out on a limb but I'm guessing they tried to tweak the Rhythm and Lead amps to SOUND like mark-series amps, but simplified the controls down. How often do you hear that the Mark-series amps are a nightmare to dial in? I mean, that isn't the case IMO, but I guess Neural and Petrucci wanted to dumb it down to not intimidate anyone.



Those of us in the meathead community thank them. 

Jk, but I mean to me it’s the freedom that a digital interface allows so why not take that freedom to make it as simple as possible. 

This sounds really good to me too. Ugh. Let me go play with my FM3 again, lol.


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## Deadpool_25 (Dec 18, 2021)

ManOnTheEdge said:


> Also what MIDI pedals are people using with their plugins? as I’d like to use the wah most of all



My friend uses a Behringer FCB1010 and that seems to work well. I’d probably go that route if I was going to get a controller for the NDSP stuff.


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## guitar_player4_2_0 (Dec 18, 2021)

Deadpool_25 said:


> My friend uses a Behringer FCB1010 and that seems to work well. I’d probably go that route if I was going to get a controller for the NDSP stuff.



I bought one of these like a year ago specifically for this and I’ve never gotten it to work lol.


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## StevenC (Dec 18, 2021)

ManOnTheEdge said:


> I generally tend to use my plugins as my practice rig or just jamming ideas so having the doubler, room mic* and transpose are great additions
> 
> *I also use ggd zilla so have some room mic blended irs set for headphone jamming already
> 
> Also what MIDI pedals are people using with their plugins? as I’d like to use the wah most of all


I use a Morningstar MC8 with any expression pedal.


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## Deadpool_25 (Dec 18, 2021)

guitar_player4_2_0 said:


> I bought one of these like a year ago specifically for this and I’ve never gotten it to work lol.



The guy I mentioned is new to midi. He had some problems too, so I went over to help out (not that I’m a midi guru, but have a little more experience that he does lol). We did end up getting it working. He was using their video as a reference I think and it still wasn’t super easy. But there was something simple we did to fix it iirc.


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## CanserDYI (Dec 18, 2021)

The more I play this plug in, the more I find I just enjoy the doubler and the effects, and the CABS. I ran my own IRs into it, and ABed with my helix patches, and frankly doesn't sound too much better than my helix models at all. I just really like those effects and his cabs....

The plug in is great don't get me wrong, but I won't be buying it like I thought.


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## guitar_player4_2_0 (Dec 18, 2021)

Deadpool_25 said:


> The guy I mentioned is new to midi. He had some problems too, so I went over to help out (not that I’m a midi guru, but have a little more experience that he does lol). We did end up getting it working. He was using their video as a reference I think and it still wasn’t super easy. But there was something simple we did to fix it iirc.




I was trying to use that vid. I don’t know what I missed. I’ll have to look at it again. It would be super handy to make that work. Was messing with the Petrucci plug-in late last night after work and that wah is awesome on there.


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## KnightBrolaire (Dec 18, 2021)

Playing around with the trial. Sounds pretty damn good. Miight have to grab it. I think this will usurp Nolly as my go to for plugins to mess around in.


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## Frostbite (Dec 18, 2021)

Bro this thing fucks. If you dig in the chugs are AUUUAUAUAUAUUUUUHHHHH


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## Metropolis (Dec 18, 2021)

White amp is way too compressed to my liking, black one is more to my taste how it behaves. It's fine for leads though, and default setting is an instant Petrucci lead tone almost out of the box. Modulations before the amp are also great, kind of messy tone in a good way.


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## CanserDYI (Dec 18, 2021)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Playing around with the trial. Sounds pretty damn good. Miight have to grab it. I think this will usurp Nolly as my go to for plugins to mess around in.


Are you finding the same sounds like a compressor is always on issue I was having? The more I play with this the more I'm noticing it.


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## KnightBrolaire (Dec 18, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> Are you finding the same sounds like a compressor is always on issue I was having? The more I play with this the more I'm noticing it.


It's definitely a thing on the white amp, but that makes sense since petrucci loves that super compressed liquidy lead sound a Mark gets when dialed in right. The black amp is definitely less compressed unless you dial the tight knob in too high. Idk, I don't plan on using the white amp as I prefer the tone I was getting with Per Nilsson's boomer lead preset, or the rhythm tone I dialed in with a dash of reverb. 
I didn't notice any compression with the clean channel or acoustic channel, until I turned the compressor pedal on.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 18, 2021)

I hate to keep fawning over this plugin that I haven't played yet  But since I use a compressor or boost for lead sounds, the white amp sounds perfect for my lead tones if that's the casee.


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## laxu (Dec 18, 2021)

Deadpool_25 said:


> My friend uses a Behringer FCB1010 and that seems to work well. I’d probably go that route if I was going to get a controller for the NDSP stuff.



The FCB1010 is a nightmare to program without using 3rd party editor software. I know it's cheap and I used one for years with the Axe-Fx 2 with the Uno chip on the FCB1010 but I can't really recommend it to anyone. There's just way better stuff out now.

My XSonic Airstep can be wireless, configured with a phone app, has 5 presets for changing what it does (e.g I have a preset for FM3, preset for my pedalboard and so on), comes with preset setups for a lot of different gear and as long as you are somewhat familiar with how MIDI works it's easy to customize to your liking.


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## laxu (Dec 18, 2021)

Tried the Petrucci plugin.

Presets are very good, just like they are in most NDSP plugins. The Petrucci folder presets especially are pretty spot on Dream Theater. I haven't played any DT in a long time and felt like you can get tones that are real close to Petrucci's tones from each era.
Effects sound very good. I like the granular crystals thingy in the delay. Minus points for the shimmer being just a toggle, every damn reverb does this when shimmer is immensely more usable when you can dial it in just right and can choose the pitch as well.
Pitch shifter (transpose) tracks reasonably well, it adds enough latency to make some fast shred make you fumble but for some mean riffs it will work well.
Room mics are a nice addition. I wish you could audition them without the close mics tho.
I like the amps, the piezo is not something I could see myself using but considering that Petrucci uses it I think it's inclusion is warranted. And it definitely does make my guitar sound like if it had a piezo pickup so they did a good job emulating that.
The purple and black amps are definitely the best in the plugin. Got a very lush clean with some effects thrown in and a very mean rhythm tone.
I like that they haven't just tried emulating a Mesa JP2C straight up with the dual graphic EQs and whatnot. I don't think anyone likes dealing with the Mesa pre-EQ that much so just having a few switches and a tight knob works very well.
There's quite a bit here that irks me in terms of UI tho:

Some of the graphics are clearly low res.
Some of the text is too tiny or too dim. And I'm looking at this on a freakin' 48" 4K OLED TV.
Why did they use symbols for high and low cut when everything else is text labeled? It makes no sense and does not make for a better user experience.
The knobs have poor legibility. Especially the post-effects have knobs that rival those awful Mesa Recto knobs.
Some of the graphics like the headshells, cable and handles are not that well drawn. It's almost like they spent a lot of time on the "eye" in each amp (which look nice) and then winged the rest. I know, has no effect on anything but having worked as a graphics designer this kind of stuff always bugs me.
The on/off switches are terrible. You have to basically try them to figure out if they are on or not. Again why not just put on/off or the power symbol on these like they do in the cab section?
The virtual expression/wah pedals are neat but a bad user interface. Why not make it just some slider scale for example so you can actually figure out its position?
Overall they lean too much on skeumorphism here to the plugin's detrement. Sounds great tho!


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## narad (Dec 18, 2021)

Good news, mystery bonus amp added to the suite, gonna be announced this week:


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## KnightBrolaire (Dec 18, 2021)

threw together a super quick clip of a death metal tone I dialed in on the black channel. Definitely my favorite channel and one of my favorite plugins from NDSP so far. It gets disgustingly grindy and tight (obviously not in my hands lmao):


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## ATRguitar91 (Dec 18, 2021)

laxu said:


> The FCB1010 is a nightmare to program without using 3rd party editor software. I know it's cheap and I used one for years with the Axe-Fx 2 with the Uno chip on the FCB1010 but I can't really recommend it to anyone. There's just way better stuff out now.
> 
> My XSonic Airstep can be wireless, configured with a phone app, has 5 presets for changing what it does (e.g I have a preset for FM3, preset for my pedalboard and so on), comes with preset setups for a lot of different gear and as long as you are somewhat familiar with how MIDI works it's easy to customize to your liking.


I grabbed an FCB1010 used for $80 and I'm super happy with it, never used a software editor. Took a good read of the manual and a couple of YouTube videos, but I was up and running with it in no time.

It is a little funny controlling the tiny Stomp on my desk with the massive 1010.

For the price (which is the lowest I saw for a midi controller), it seems hard to beat.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 18, 2021)

Oh yeah you can find those FCBs for under $100 all day. Add in the ROM upgrade and it's still really affordable considering all the pedal has to offer.


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## Backsnack (Dec 18, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> The more I play this plug in, the more I find I just enjoy the doubler and the effects, and the CABS. I ran my own IRs into it, and ABed with my helix patches, and frankly doesn't sound too much better than my helix models at all. I just really like those effects and his cabs....
> 
> The plug in is great don't get me wrong, but I won't be buying it like I thought.




John Cordy's videos like these are basically the reason I stopped buying Neural DSP releases.


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## CanserDYI (Dec 18, 2021)

Backsnack said:


> John Cordy's videos like these are basically the reason I stopped buying Neural DSP releases.



Have not watched yet, but god I love Johnathan Cordy, cannot WAIT for this....


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## Backsnack (Dec 18, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> Have not watched yet, but god I love Johnathan Cordy, cannot WAIT for this....


If I can solo half as good as he can some day I'll feel like I've accomplished something.


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## Backsnack (Dec 18, 2021)

StevenC said:


> I use a Morningstar MC8 with any expression pedal.


This is the right answer. Totally worth the money over the cheap Behringer.


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## laxu (Dec 18, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> The more I play this plug in, the more I find I just enjoy the doubler and the effects, and the CABS. I ran my own IRs into it, and ABed with my helix patches, and frankly doesn't sound too much better than my helix models at all. I just really like those effects and his cabs....
> 
> The plug in is great don't get me wrong, but I won't be buying it like I thought.



People expecting one modeler to blow another away are going to be disappointed.

I ran the Petrucci and ML Sound Lab ML5 through ML Sound Lab MIKKO as cab sim and they could be made to sound pretty much identical.

That's why I say to people to make their decision based on workflow and other features because soundwise there isn't some massive difference. The Petrucci is a nice plugin but I have no need to buy one because I already own a FM3 which can do the same stuff and much, much more.

If I didn't have anything, the NeuralDSP SLO and Petrucci plugins would be very enticing as both could do most of what I want in terms of guitar sounds, have good presets and are easy to use.


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## Metropolis (Dec 18, 2021)

Backsnack said:


> John Cordy's videos like these are basically the reason I stopped buying Neural DSP releases.




They can be matched for a certain tone, which in this case is John's tone, but there is few things Helix can't do. 


Effects have better quality on Neural DSP plugins.
Neural modeling tends to have tighter low end and more highs on tap.
Neural has a compressor that works effectively, great for leads.
To me Archetype: Petrucci piezo amp model sounds better than acoustic sim on Helix.
Overall sound for my taste is generally more pleasing.
Amp master volume works effectively in a realistic way.
Helix doesn't have shimmer reverb.
These could be things someone values or not


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## Alberto7 (Dec 18, 2021)

I have spent a good 2-3 hours playing around and listening to what I can get out of the Petrucci plugin. Sounds pretty damn good but...
...am I the only one having issues with latency, or is it in my head?
None of my other NDSP plugins (Nolly, Nameless, Gojira, Plini, and Abasi) have made me as confused as this one does when going through fast runs or trying to tremolo-pick properly on beat.


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## laxu (Dec 18, 2021)

Metropolis said:


> They can be matched for a certain tone, which in this case is John's tone, but there is few things Helix can't do.
> 
> 
> Effects have better quality on Neural DSP plugins.
> ...




I think effects quality is very subjective. I find Helix's newer reverbs to be much more natural sounding than the one in the Petrucci for example.
This is just how they are adjusted and setup. I don't find that NDSP plugins are tighter or brighter than Helix.
Helix compressors work just great.
I can agree about the piezo.
Master volume works just fine in Helix IMO.
You are right about shimmer, I hadn't even thought about it. You can kind of use the Plateux like one but it will only do "on input" shimmer rather than the usual "on regeneration" shimmer. The NDSP shimmer is actually a pretty crappy implementation because it loses the regular reverb when turned on. Being only a toggle is also crap because mixing in a bit of shimmer to a regular reverb works really nicely.


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## CanserDYI (Dec 18, 2021)

laxu said:


> I think effects quality is very subjective. I find Helix's newer reverbs to be much more natural sounding than the one in the Petrucci for example.
> This is just how they are adjusted and setup. I don't find that NDSP plugins are tighter or brighter than Helix.
> Helix compressors work just great.
> I can agree with it the piezo.
> ...


Exactly the same list i was going to reply with, but decided I was too lazy.


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## wakjob (Dec 18, 2021)

Forgive me if this is a stupid question...but is John all done with Mesa Gibson?


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## technomancer (Dec 18, 2021)

wakjob said:


> Forgive me if this is a stupid question...but is John all done with Mesa Gibson?



You're hilarious. This is mailbox money. Put your name on a product you never actually use and get a check each month. It could in theory spell the end of him with Fractal, but even that is highly unlikely given how his touring rigs are set up where a desktop effects unit doesn't make sense.


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## Emperoff (Dec 18, 2021)

Tried it yesterday. I did a quick test run through the first presets and enjoyed it quite a bit. When testing, I quickly found the bass at noon flubby and boomy already. I took that as a good sign, and set it to zero. To my surprise it didn't sound thin at all, which meant it definetely had some Mark DNA in there. I set it at 0, 0, 10 and it was (almost) in Mark territory. The treble control is definetely more agressive in the plugin but something like 0, 0, 8 worked quite well. Then set the EQ in a similar way to Mesa's graphic EQ and BAM, there it was. Very, very close sounding to my Triaxis presets.

I didn't navigate through all the presets, but there was this dude from Architects which apparently shares my tonal preferences (since I liked all of his presets). Was able to get a very kickass tone just from tweaking them a bit. I was very surprised by the clean amp, as it gets great tones quickly.

The piezo amp is not something I'll use much, but it can be pretty cool. I thought the "Air" control was going to be a bright swtich, but it was very different. It makes the guitar sound more "distant" (as if using a room mic), and I found myself playing music from Blasphemous (videogame) for like half an hour.

The FX are probably the best they've done so far. I didn't like the delay on hi-gain presets, as it has this fizzy repeats that annoyed the hell out of me (but looks like it has hi/lo pass filters that could fix that).

*Pros:*
- Plenty of features on it that, although a gimmick for some, might be very appealing to others (doubler, metronome, transpose, etc).
- Finally a breakout from the Youtube metal circle.
- Amps sound very good (Specially purple and black ones). Piezo amp is cool too.
- It still has Mark DNA. Usual Mark settings work just fine with some adjustments.
- The FX are very good. Really liked the shimmer reverb on cleans.

*Cons:*
- Text and labels are quite small and hard to read, as others pointed out.
- White amp was a bit uningspiring . Seemed like a more compressed and boring version of black amp.
- Doubler takes all the bass away and adds latency. You'll probably have better results loading two instances of the plugin and panning them.


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## Backsnack (Dec 18, 2021)

Metropolis said:


> They can be matched for a certain tone, which in this case is John's tone, but there is few things Helix can't do.
> 
> 
> Effects have better quality on Neural DSP plugins.
> ...


----------



## Backsnack (Dec 18, 2021)

wakjob said:


> Forgive me if this is a stupid question...but is John all done with Mesa Gibson?


Pfff definitely not.


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## ramses (Dec 18, 2021)

technomancer said:


> You're hilarious. This is mailbox money. Put your name on a product you never actually use and get a check each month. It could in theory spell the end of him with Fractal, but even that is highly unlikely given how his touring rigs are set up where a desktop effects unit doesn't make sense.



We all also have to keep in mind that we use different equipment for live performance, at-home recording, and travel demoing.

In other words, it is perfectly reasonable to have an actual Mesa JPc, some Fractal device, and some NDSP plugin.

Of course, this is all budget-contingent  We are all 80% there 

I'm currently considering this new NDSP/JPC plugin as a travel practice/demoing pluging. However, that also means that I need an usb-c interface with descent spec to travel. Will I buy??


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 18, 2021)

I mean I wouldn't be surprised if he uses this on the tourbus, hotel rooms, etc where he can being a laptop and a wee interface. But there's no way in hell he's replacing his Mesa amps and Fractal effects for a laptop.


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## Kyle Jordan (Dec 19, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I mean I wouldn't be surprised if he uses this on the tourbus, hotel rooms, etc where he can being a laptop and a wee interface. But there's no way in hell he's replacing his Mesa amps and Fractal effects for a laptop.




That’s pretty much what I thought of as well. Plus, this puts a Petrucci product in a new market space that is already large but still expanding. 

I think there are some interesting things happening here. The guitar in to computer rigs are really the future and partially the now. I see lots of players with 2 or 3 amps and some type of loadbox for physical gear, and then a fair amount of plugins. I can see that really becoming the non-touring/playing out players new standard. Hardware modelers shrinking in use as a laptop running plugins and suites becomes more reliable with less latency.


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## Matt08642 (Dec 19, 2021)

Pretty pricey, but on the other hand I would have killed for a suite like this back when I was 15 - TBH I use my Neural Granophyre plugin 99.9% of the time at home, the only time I bust out my real amp and cab anymore is when I go somewhere to jam with people.


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## Dayn (Dec 19, 2021)

It's a pity I already have many other NeuralDSP plugins because I'm enjoying the hell out of this. I only hope the transpose function makes it into the other plugins.


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## STRHelvete (Dec 19, 2021)

As the resident Neural hater...I kinda want to try it. I'm sure I know the outcome, ESPECIALLY for that price but I'm also the amp sim nerd so I feel like I have to give it a try

Edit: Oh god I forgot all the dumb shit they make you do first...*grumble*


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## STRHelvete (Dec 19, 2021)

So I got it, played around with it.

Honestly? It's not bad. I was able to find some things I liked and with some tweaking I could see it working. The responsiveness and "realness" is definitely a selling point and all the effects are pretty cool. Is it worth the price tag? Ehhhh..not to me, BUT I could see someone falling in love with this and spending the money. This is the first Neural amp I didn't want to uninstall 30 min after playing.

I tested it against my usual amp sim setup and the Helix. For me it didn't beat those (but obviously I've had more time to get used to those and dial them in), but it damn sure could hang with them. This is the first Neural that I liked visually too. Yeah some of the settings were hard to read but for me that just makes me use my ears instead of my eyes.

All in all? I actually like it. I'm certainly glad I checked it out.


----------



## Metropolis (Dec 19, 2021)

@Backsnack I've had Helix LT for over a year now. To me Neural plugins also feel better, whatever that means. But yeah, Helix is highly capable and amazing unit, it can do almost everything. I just wanted to point out what parts I like about this plugin more. And I totally forgot that Plateaux reverb has shimmery sounding modulation, still to my ears not as pleasing compared to Archetype: Petrucci reverb.


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## Lorcan Ward (Dec 19, 2021)

The doubler and metronome is a perfect reason for them to make a Neural hub Plug-in instead of updating everything else(if they even have plans for that).


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## ATRguitar91 (Dec 19, 2021)

Kyle Jordan said:


> Hardware modelers shrinking in use as a laptop running plugins and suites becomes more reliable with less latency.


I think I'm an outlier here because as you said there is a growing base of people who use amps and then plugins for more quiet stuff. But I personally don't like being tied to a computer for practice purposes. That's why I got a modeller.

I know it only takes a few seconds, but I don't like having to wait for the PC to turn on and then load up the DAW or plugin. With a hardware modeller, I just flip my power switch and all my gear comes to life. I'm ready to go by the time I've picked a guitar. 

I also think there is a slight upgrade over latency too with a hardware modeller.


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## Emperoff (Dec 19, 2021)

STRHelvete said:


> So I got it, played around with it.
> 
> Honestly? It's not bad. I was able to find some things I liked and with some tweaking I could see it working. The responsiveness and "realness" is definitely a selling point and all the effects are pretty cool. Is it worth the price tag? Ehhhh..not to me, BUT I could see someone falling in love with this and spending the money. This is the first Neural amp I didn't want to uninstall 30 min after playing.
> 
> ...



If you like it you can always grab it when it hits 50% off next year. That's when they become fairly priced.


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## technomancer (Dec 19, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I mean I wouldn't be surprised if he uses this on the tourbus, hotel rooms, etc where he can being a laptop and a wee interface. But there's no way in hell he's replacing his Mesa amps and Fractal effects for a laptop.



Yeah "never uses" was probably a bit harsh, was more thinking about live and recording / rehearsals in the context of it replacing anything he uses currently. I could see this where you mentioned or to capture scratch tracks in those environments with a DAW.


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## CanserDYI (Dec 19, 2021)

Why are we even questioning if JP is going to use this live? Nah.

Y'all think Tim Henson, Tosin Abasi, or Gojira dudes are using their plug ins live? Nah, if they're not, JP is laughably not.


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## Soya (Dec 19, 2021)

Was really curious about this but have never used a plugin so borrowed a friend's cheap interface to give the demo a try. Sounds pretty good to me, definitely takes some getting used to coming from a powered Kemper and a 2x12 cab. Need to work on my pc settings too since I'm a total noob at it, but I may pick it up once I get a decent interface. Transpose feature sounds way better than on the Kemper.


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## Emperoff (Dec 19, 2021)

We live in a wonderful age for guitar gear. Different technologies coexist (contradicting all those people that thought digital was going to take over in 5 years, 20 years ago). Tube amps are still going strong, multi-FX units are better than ever and VST modelling has come a loong way. There are options for everyone, in every budget, and that is just fucking great.

I live in an apartment, so for me having a full sized head with a 412 is pointless. I mean, I could do it with an attenuator like a lot of people do, but why the hell would I want to occupy that much space when I can get great tones out of plugins? OTOH, I have a massive rehearsal space where I keep all my amps. No IRs, no attenuators. Just full blast and sounding glorious, as it should be.

Does that mean I don't use modellers live? Far from it. I modellers for FX, amp switching, etc. And if required, I can also use ampsims and go direct or straight into the poweramp section.

Isn't it awesome to have all of these tools at our disposal?


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## CanserDYI (Dec 19, 2021)

Emperoff said:


> We live in a wonderful age for guitar gear. Different technologies coexist (contradicting all those people that thought digital was going to take over in 5 years, 20 years ago). Tube amps are still going strong, multi-FX units are better than ever and VST modelling has come a loong way. There are options for everyone, in every budget, and that is just fucking great.
> 
> I live in an apartment, so for me having a full sized head with a 412 is pointless. I mean, I could do it with an attenuator like a lot of people do, but why the hell would I want to occupy that much space when I can get great tones out of plugins? OTOH, I have a massive rehearsal space where I keep all my amps. No IRs, no attenuators. Just full blast and sounding glorious, as it should be.
> 
> ...


Yeah I love modern guitar gear, it's fucking fun, everything sounds awesome, playing is fun again, there are countless free ways to sound great, awesome new music is happening all around us and giving us new sounds and things to tinker and toy with.

If you're bored playing guitar/playing with gear, you haven't opened your eyes or you just don't like it that much and need to admit it!


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## laxu (Dec 19, 2021)

ATRguitar91 said:


> I think I'm an outlier here because as you said there is a growing base of people who use amps and then plugins for more quiet stuff. But I personally don't like being tied to a computer for practice purposes. That's why I got a modeller.
> 
> I know it only takes a few seconds, but I don't like having to wait for the PC to turn on and then load up the DAW or plugin. With a hardware modeller, I just flip my power switch and all my gear comes to life. I'm ready to go by the time I've picked a guitar.
> 
> I also think there is a slight upgrade over latency too with a hardware modeller.



It takes about the same time to boot up my FM3 as it does to boot up Cantabile 3 with plugins already setup.

That said, I don't like being tied to a computer either. I like having proper physical controls which is why I've been harping on about the Fractal user interface and it's annoyances. MIDI mapping in amp sim plugins is generally a bit rubbish too and hardware units definitely have less latency.


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## ATRguitar91 (Dec 19, 2021)

laxu said:


> It takes about the same time to boot up my FM3 as it does to boot up Cantabile 3 with plugins already setup.
> 
> That said, I don't like being tied to a computer either. I like having proper physical controls which is why I've been harping on about the Fractal user interface and it's annoyances. MIDI mapping in amp sim plugins is generally a bit rubbish too and hardware units definitely have less latency.


Are you including PC boot time as well? I keep mine off since I can only intermittently get to my main jam space (the basement) with a newborn these days.

Never heard of Cantabile until you mentioned it, totally gonna try it out later! Seems wicked.


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## Emperoff (Dec 19, 2021)

You guys are forgetting about amp boot time (also known as standby/tube warmup).


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 19, 2021)

To be fair if you're using a laptop meant specifically for plugins, installing as few programs as possible and using an SSD could make boot time super quick. 
...But at the same time, I don't trust a laptop for gigs.  I'd rather just get a Helix LT.


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## Deadpool_25 (Dec 19, 2021)

Boot time? Seriously? I love you guys but just stop it.


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## CanserDYI (Dec 19, 2021)

I've had some expensive ass laptops. Literally every single laptop I've ever bought, from $100 Acers to $2k MacBook pros, has given me some sort of stutter, issue, weird glitch, etc.

My 900 dollar helix lt has literally never failed on me, never crashed, failed to turn on, stuttered.. etc.


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## Mathemagician (Dec 19, 2021)

Emperoff said:


> …but why the hell would I want to occupy that much space when I can get great tones out of plugins?



To impress girls who come over. Duh. Issa decoration.


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## Matt08642 (Dec 19, 2021)

Deadpool_25 said:


> Boot time? Seriously? I love you guys but just stop it.



We can't forget the time it takes to find your pick, get comfortable, determine if you feel like standing or sitting, make sure the room humidity is solid, is the Vai hair blowing fan on etc 



CanserDYI said:


> I've had some expensive ass laptops. Literally every single laptop I've ever bought, from $100 Acers to $2k MacBook pros, has given me some sort of stutter, issue, weird glitch, etc.
> 
> My 900 dollar helix lt has literally never failed on me, never crashed, failed to turn on, stuttered.. etc.



There's also a lot more going on with a computer, whereas a Helix is a dedicated unit. That being said, I've never had an issue with my MOTU M4 > Cakewalk with Neural Granophyre


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## CanserDYI (Dec 19, 2021)

Mathemagician said:


> To impress girls who come over. Duh. Issa decoration.


Not going to lie, I legit LOVE a fat stack of amps and shit, just as decoration. 



Matt08642 said:


> We can't forget the time it takes to find your pick, get comfortable, determine if you feel like standing or sitting, make sure the room humidity is solid, is the Vai hair blowing fan on etc
> 
> 
> 
> There's also a lot more going on with a computer, whereas a Helix is a dedicated unit. That being said, I've never had an issue with my MOTU M4 > Cakewalk with Neural Granophyre


My point exactly, bring the tool that's designed for the job. I'm not bringing a jigsaw to cut down a tree.


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## 4Eyes (Dec 19, 2021)

computer boot time is like argument from 90s, early 2000s.. since we have SSDs and now NVMe SSDs - who ever cared about boot time? I don't even manage to pick up my guitar and plug in a cable and my computer is fired up, ready to shred and yawning because it takes me soooo long to find a pick


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## mpexus (Dec 19, 2021)

My windows PC boots in less than 15 seconds and in less than 60 I have Reaper Open with lots of crap on tracks plus Chrome with 20-30 tabs.... What boot time are we talking about?


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## STRHelvete (Dec 19, 2021)

Someone needs to make a stage proof computer/hardware that lets you load up all your amp sims, IRs, etc and use them for live shows. Think Helix, but you can take everything from your computer and put it on the device. No glitches and overheating..nothing flimsy that'll damage like a laptop..none of that shit. Is there something like that? I'm assuming just some heavy duty computer.


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## CanserDYI (Dec 19, 2021)

STRHelvete said:


> Someone needs to make a stage proof computer/hardware that lets you load up all your amp sims, IRs, etc and use them for live shows. Think Helix, but you can take everything from your computer and put it on the device. No glitches and overheating..nothing flimsy that'll damage like a laptop..none of that shit. Is there something like that? I'm assuming just some heavy duty computer.


I think there was a VST loading head in development by someone a few years back, but iirc it didn't work very well.


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## Xaios (Dec 19, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I don't trust a laptop for gigs.


Chugga-chugga-chugga-chugga-weedly-weedly-WINDOWS IS UPDATING*FUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!*


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## Backsnack (Dec 19, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> Why are we even questioning if JP is going to use this live? Nah.
> 
> Y'all think Tim Henson, Tosin Abasi, or Gojira dudes are using their plug ins live? Nah, if they're not, JP is laughably not.


IIRC Petrucci has been using an Axe FX III live for quite a few years now unless I'm out of the loop.

I'm sure he still uses amps when he records and rehearses at a minimum.


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## Backsnack (Dec 19, 2021)

STRHelvete said:


> Someone needs to make a stage proof computer/hardware that lets you load up all your amp sims, IRs, etc and use them for live shows. Think Helix, but you can take everything from your computer and put it on the device. No glitches and overheating..nothing flimsy that'll damage like a laptop..none of that shit. Is there something like that? I'm assuming just some heavy duty computer.


Keep watching as Apple moves toward unifying everything into ARM architecture. Feasibly, at some point, iPads may be able to run desktop-level plugins.


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## Backsnack (Dec 19, 2021)

mpexus said:


> My windows PC boots in less than 15 seconds and in less than 60 I have Reaper Open with lots of crap on tracks plus Chrome with 20-30 tabs.... What boot time are we talking about?


Solid state drives have been easily the biggest boost for computer performance in the last 10+ years.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 19, 2021)

Backsnack said:


> IIRC Petrucci has been using an Axe FX III live for quite a few years now unless I'm out of the loop.
> 
> I'm sure he still uses amps when he records and rehearses at a minimum.



He's been a Fractal guy for a long time now, since 2009, but only for effects. I'm guessing he tried using it for distortion at first, but moved onto using it for post-amp effects.


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## technomancer (Dec 19, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> He's been a Fractal guy for a long time now, since 2009, but only for effects. I'm guessing he tried using it for distortion at first, but moved onto using it for post-amp effects.



Yep he's had 2 JP2Cs and 2 Fractals (Axe II then more recently III) in his rack for quite a while along with a rack wah and a couple pedals in a drawer.


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## Emperoff (Dec 19, 2021)

Backsnack said:


> Solid state drives have been easily the biggest boost for computer performance in the last 10+ years.



I heard tube drives give a bigger boost to computers


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## cmpxchg (Dec 19, 2021)

Emperoff said:


> I heard tube drives give a bigger boost to computers


i really prefer the increased third-order harmonics and creamy distortion my data gets when it's being loaded from tube drives

also, arguing about laptop boot time? son just close the lid of the laptop instead of turning it off, it will consume approximately zero power, suspend-to-RAM works fine these days and DRAM self-refresh is a vanishingly small percentage of total battery consumption for a device like that, you will use more battery having the display on for 30 seconds than you will in an hour of leaving the memory in self-refresh by having the lid closed. of course, the bigger problem with a laptop is when Windows or MacOS decides "you know what, let's go ahead and update now" in the background. laptops for critical audio as part of a live performance always seemed like playing with fire to me...


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## Flappydoodle (Dec 19, 2021)

M1 MacBook Air will easily handle running a live rig, flawlessly. Instant boot times. Extremely fast load times and stable performance. Super long battery life. You wouldn't even need to plug it into power.

And if you spend 5 minutes doing some basic things like turning off automatic updates, turning off power saving, screensavers etc, it will give you zero cause for concern.

I would be just as confident using that as I would using a tube amp rig. I don't get this idea that it needs to be physically robust. You just put it somewhere that it won't get dropped. And anyway, it's not like tube amps are great at being dropped either. Hell, it's not like tube amps are the most reliable thing, period.

You also have a ton of modern bands already running all of their backing tracks on laptops. Some are even running all the MIDI-driven patch changes. So I don't see why running one or two live guitar signals through it would be any more "dangerous". If you're a simple metal band of a drummer, bassist, vocalist and 1-2 guitars, I feel like running those 3 guitars through a laptop would be so incredibly easy and I'd be totally confident doing it.


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## jaxadam (Dec 19, 2021)

Flappydoodle said:


> M1 MacBook Air will easily handle running a live rig, flawlessly. Instant boot times. Extremely fast load times and stable performance. Super long battery life. You wouldn't even need to plug it into power.
> 
> And if you spend 5 minutes doing some basic things like turning off automatic updates, turning off power saving, screensavers etc, it will give you zero cause for concern.
> 
> ...



This. A few electronic DJ’s I follow just use a laptop now, no turntables, no mixers, no peripherals. Hardware is becoming antiquated. With a MacBook and DJ Algoriddim you can leave your crate containing hundreds of vinyls at home now.


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## StevenC (Dec 19, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> He's been a Fractal guy for a long time now, since 2009, but only for effects. I'm guessing he tried using it for distortion at first, but moved onto using it for post-amp effects.


He has used the Fractals exclusively on some international tours, and I think has them set to work as a backup in case something happens to the Mesas that can't be fixed in the moment.


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## STRHelvete (Dec 19, 2021)

Flappydoodle said:


> M1 MacBook Air will easily handle running a live rig, flawlessly. Instant boot times. Extremely fast load times and stable performance. Super long battery life. You wouldn't even need to plug it into power.
> 
> And if you spend 5 minutes doing some basic things like turning off automatic updates, turning off power saving, screensavers etc, it will give you zero cause for concern.
> 
> ...


Because people are stupid and I'd like something that can withstand the stupidity. It's mainly a peace of mind thing.


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## cmpxchg (Dec 20, 2021)

Flappydoodle said:


> M1 MacBook Air will easily handle running a live rig, flawlessly. Instant boot times. Extremely fast load times and stable performance. Super long battery life. You wouldn't even need to plug it into power.
> 
> And if you spend 5 minutes doing some basic things like turning off automatic updates, turning off power saving, screensavers etc, it will give you zero cause for concern.
> 
> ...


we're going totally off topic, but the tradeoffs are not that straightforward. There are pros and cons to commodity platforms (hardware plus software) like M1 laptops. Price is a pro, availability is a pro, overall reliability is a pro, performance is a pro. You _can_ run an M1 in these situations and it will almost certainly work fine.

The con is that laptops are not single-purpose machines. If I'm running a Fractal box or a Quad Cortex or whatever, there is a straightforward path from input to modeling bits to output that either works or doesn't. That's not really the case with laptops. If you want as close to a performance guarantee as you can get from the hardware for a Neural plugin on M1, you'd want the CPU to run at fixed CPU frequencies, no CPU/cluster idle, no moving the plugin to an efficiency core, nothing that could impact performance. You can't set that up on a laptop (outside of being a kernel developer) because if you did, it would overheat and shut down; the body of the laptop cannot dissipate that kind of power consumption. A plugin where I want really good latency and zero audio artifacts is going to be sensitive to any change in CPU performance that might happen due to thermals or anything else that impacts the device. Similarly, if I have a laptop setup and it's heating up more than usual because of lights or the sun or other equipment, the CPU might downclock at a random time and the plugin will start popping and clicking all over the place, even if I wasn't doing anything different with the plugin. 

The fix for that is to not run other software, to know exactly how much performance/power your workload requires and tune processors to run at the ideal position on the frequency/power curve, and to overengineer the physical design so you can dissipate a lot more heat than you produce to be ready for those kinds of conditions... and hey that's basically what hardware modelers do with the hardware they can get.

Backing tracks and MIDI changes are easy for laptops because they are not latency sensitive--if your DAW is filling a 5s buffer that your sound card streams out while another 5s buffer has just started playing, who cares if the DAW gets delayed by 2ms late one time? Everything plays fine either way. The hard latency requirements are what makes live modeling tricky.


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## RevDrucifer (Dec 20, 2021)

As for Petrucci’s use of the AxeFX; the only reason we have a JPIIC+ model in it was because Petrucci asked Cliff to put it in there and sent him one of his heads to model it from. He’s stated in interviews he uses the amp modeling for practicing and writing demos but still prefers to have his Mesa’s onstage and in the studio for the tracking of an album.


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## Ericjutsu (Dec 21, 2021)

I'm curious if Petrucci will actually use this new plugin.


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## technomancer (Dec 21, 2021)

Ericjutsu said:


> I'm curious if Petrucci will actually use this new plugin.



I think @HeHasTheJazzHands nailed it, if he uses it it will be someplace you will never see it unless he mentions online somewhere he is using it.


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## Emperoff (Dec 21, 2021)

Ericjutsu said:


> I'm curious if Petrucci will actually use this new plugin.



Does it really matter?


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 21, 2021)

Yeah I doubt ANY of the Archetype amp guys use their plugins 24/7 . Probably just for bedroom jamming and scratch tracks.


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## Backsnack (Dec 21, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Yeah I doubt ANY of the Archetype amp guys use their plugins 24/7 . Probably just for bedroom jamming and scratch tracks.


If I'm led to believe Plini's social media posts, his super clean, white minimalist office jamming setup has signature plugin on his laptop all the time.


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## Ericjutsu (Dec 21, 2021)

Emperoff said:


> Does it really matter?


No. I'm just curious


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## Ericjutsu (Dec 21, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Yeah I doubt ANY of the Archetype amp guys use their plugins 24/7 . Probably just for bedroom jamming and scratch tracks.


well that's what I mean. Obviously the amp guys aren't going to just use the plugin, but for demos I'm curious.


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## Genome (Dec 21, 2021)

Downloaded the trial. Loaded up the black amp, did two chugs. Then bought the plugin.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 21, 2021)

Backsnack said:


> If I'm led to believe Plini's social media posts, his super clean, white minimalist office jamming setup has signature plugin on his laptop all the time.


I was debating on excluding Plini and Polyphia, maybe even Tosin, since they'd be the bands that would most likely to use plugins to record actual stuff, but eh.


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## Metropolis (Dec 21, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Yeah I doubt ANY of the Archetype amp guys use their plugins 24/7 . Probably just for bedroom jamming and scratch tracks.



Archetype: Plini was used on Plini's most recent album.

https://mixdownmag.com.au/features/...king-of-his-instrumental-epic-impulse-voices/


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## Deadpool_25 (Dec 21, 2021)

And Aaron Marshall doesn’t have an Archetype, but he did use NDSP plugins for all the guitars on Circadian. /shrug


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## StevenC (Dec 21, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I was debating on excluding Plini and Polyphia, maybe even Tosin, since they'd be the bands that would most likely to use plugins to record actual stuff, but eh.


Tosin apparently did use his plugin on the new album. Something about being the only amp type thing that sounds the way he wants them to, and to be fair his plugin does sound unique. But also he used AFXIII and a Quad Cortex to track too, at least.


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## Alberto7 (Dec 22, 2021)

StevenC said:


> Tosin apparently did use his plugin on the new album. Something about being the only amp type thing that sounds the way he wants them to, and to be fair his plugin does sound unique. But also he used AFXIII and a Quad Cortex to track too, at least.



This is true. His plugin is the one I struggle dialing in the most, just cause it's so different. But I've managed to dial in a couple of pretty sick tones I don't think I could quite get with any of the other NDSP plugins I own.


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## Frostbite (Dec 22, 2021)

Yeah this is my new go to plugin IDGAF. It sounds fantastic across 6,7, and 8 string on basically the same preset and it's just growly and the bass is so usable and sounds so controlled unless I get really stupid. The IRs are also, IMO, matched so perfectly that I don't feel the need to run an external IR like I prefer to do with Nolly or really any other NDSP plugin. Digging in just sounds so fucking good. I went into this having zero need to buy it to I absolutely want it cause I like it that much


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## Avedas (Dec 23, 2021)

I need to try out the free trial on this. I've done trials for many of the other plugins but I only bought Parallax for bass. They always sound great but I found Fractal feels better on my fingers, but it's been a couple years so I'm curious if it's improved at all.


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## laxu (Dec 24, 2021)

Avedas said:


> I need to try out the free trial on this. I've done trials for many of the other plugins but I only bought Parallax for bass. They always sound great but I found Fractal feels better on my fingers, but it's been a couple years so I'm curious if it's improved at all.


Plugins will always have more latency and that can be felt. It is not a deal breaker to me at least.


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## Flappydoodle (Dec 24, 2021)

laxu said:


> Plugins will always have more latency and that can be felt. It is not a deal breaker to me at least.



Just opened Archetype Nolly to check.

1.5 ms of latency. In Logic I can get 3.5 ms round trip latency

That's basically the time taken for sound to travel 1 meter in air

So if you stand 2 meters away from your amp, you're getting 6 milliseconds of latency


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## STRHelvete (Dec 24, 2021)

So I've been playing with this plugin more and it's really good. Simply just turning it on and throwing on the boost gets and instant sound I dig. I don't notice any latency issues and everything works as it should.

My only problem with it is that it doesn't do anything so unique that it's worth paying for. It sounds great, has the best real amp response and feel of anything I've played through but tonally it doesn't do anything that I feel I really need, especially not for the price tag.

That being said, I'm gonna play it and enjoy it while the trial lasts because I like it.


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## Avedas (Dec 25, 2021)

laxu said:


> Plugins will always have more latency and that can be felt. It is not a deal breaker to me at least.


Nah the problem isn't latency. I think Neural amps feel better to me than my Helix LT. It's just my perception of how they respond to my finger dynamics while playing, but when recorded they all sound great.


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## Aewrik (Dec 25, 2021)

cmpxchg said:


> we're going totally off topic, but the tradeoffs are not that straightforward.



Another thing which becomes even more difficult to "mitigate" is all the background stuff that's just gotten piled on the last couple of years, even on mac. Disregarding the scheduler or some firmware failing, what if you're running a windows machine and you forgot to change your "active hours" before the gig, and the fucker reboots because your machines somehow found an open network, connected and downloaded an "essential" update because why the fuck not and decided to ruin your night because everything should be automated nowadays. Or if your forget to mute desktop sounds and you get a nice BLOOP in the middle of the gig because some component went to sleep, or your calendar remembered that you only snoozed your gig reminder and wants the crowd to know, or whatever. Linux is better in that sense, but the Audio Assault stuff doesn't beat Helix, and low-latency windows emulation just isn't a thing, even if yabridge works better than wineasio ever did.

Regarding the plugin, I'm resisting so far, but man those effects sound nice. I'm happy with the other NDSP stuff I have, but still... it's kind of funny that Ola thought the stereo spreader was the best feature of the plugin.


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## slavboi_delight (Dec 27, 2021)

I used the trial and i think for me the fact you can add room sound at the cab section, made me consider it.

Still bought the lasse lammert tonality though.


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