# 90% vs 100%



## nanthil (Jun 10, 2021)

I've heard Petrucci, Richardson, and Vai all explicitly mention the amount of effort it requires to get to the level of polish they achieve in their live playing, and how much continual effort it takes to maintain a particular fast passage at the correct tempo. I have been working at some fast music for a while, which has pushed me to new levels of control, relaxation, and speed. I started very slow, and over the past year can play the faster sections perfectly with control and good tone (even matching vibrato), staying relaxed up to 85% or so speed. Sometimes 90.

But I think I've spent more time trying to nail this last 10% then I have getting it up to 90. When I play full speed I find I can either be precise OR relaxed but not both at this tempo, which introduces slop in one direction or another.

I'm writing to find out what it takes to get that last 10% of speed and control in fast music. Please share your attempts, failures and successes to achieve that last 10% of speed and articulation. Anyone can play controlled with good tone if you slow it down enough, but what does it actually take to get that level of speed with articulation?

What worked for you?

How long did it take you to get that last 10%?

Was it worth the payout?

Is it enough for you personally to be mostly clean with some slop, or does your slop haunt you at night?


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## odibrom (Jun 10, 2021)

Practice with clean tones, either exercises or music passages or whatever. Use the dirt tones only when you're bored or tired or in need to freshen up for a bit. If you nail it in the clean tone realm, you're there! Also, a compressor before the preamp may help...

... the time one takes to get there is not important, the journey is.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 10, 2021)

Some folks will never be able to do it, no matter how hard they try. That's just how it is. 

But that's okay. 

Like @odibrom said, it's the journey. 

Just have fun with it.


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## gnoll (Jun 10, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Some folks will never be able to do it, no matter how hard they try. That's just how it is.



Why?

If there's something wrong like missing fingers or hands then I can understand it but otherwise why would some people not be able to do it? Surely as long as people practice enough and in the right way then everybody should be able to play well?


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## nanthil (Jun 10, 2021)

Some days I enjoy it, other days I wonder who is even going to notice, let alone care? And that saps my motivation sometimez.... But I need to do it at least once just to know what it takes, since as you say, there are so few who have actually accomplished that who can tell me what it takes to play at that level. 

Sometimes I wish interviewers would just get down to the important questions rather than fan boying or soft-balling the great players so we can all learn what methods work for the greats.


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## nanthil (Jun 10, 2021)

gnoll said:


> Why?
> 
> If there's something wrong like missing fingers or hands then I can understand it but otherwise why would some people not be able to do it? Surely as long as people practice enough and in the right way then everybody should be able to play well?



No I can see what he means. There are people who just won't put in the time, or don't have the time, or don't like the style.... or any other number of reasons. Maybe no teacher to point out their inefficiencies, or they just will never have the self awareness to identify their own shortcomings.

It's like with any physical activity, some people will just never run fast. Let alone be an Olympic sprinter.


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## odibrom (Jun 10, 2021)

There's a thing called _Emotional Disability_ that hunts us all. Some can cope with it better than others in different aspects of life. It is obviously related to our experiences in life and how we can direct our focus towards our challenges. It controls more than a perfect "we" or "I" would want, it limits us to the point that one says "I can't do it" when the objective is just around the corner. It is pictured in the movies so many times that most of us lost count. It is the story of being human. That's why the time one takes to get there isn't important, only the journey.

It doesn't really matter if one gets there (where ever that may be), just the efforts one makes. You see, most of the times we ARE there and we don't even notice it, know how we did it or even how to replicate the experience. It's not about luck nor being a genius, only about work, either to break the rocks one has ahead as well as our inner most darkest thoughts. That is the fight worth fighting and that's where one is reborn.

The path is towards consciousness at all the times, understanding that what I ate at breakfast will interfere with my thoughts later in the evening... or my guitar playing...


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## USMarine75 (Jun 10, 2021)

gnoll said:


> Why?
> 
> If there's something wrong like missing fingers or hands then I can understand it but otherwise why would some people not be able to do it? Surely as long as people practice enough and in the right way then everybody should be able to play well?



Anybody could be Einstein or Tom Brady if they just practiced enough.


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## TheInvisibleHand (Jun 10, 2021)

USMarine75 said:


> Anybody could be Einstein or Tom Brady if they just practiced enough.



This is completely untrue. Unfortunately, the world is a unfailingly unfair place. And I don't mean this in the "woe is me" sort of way. I mean that most people would be better off if they were able to honestly admit to themselves that they may not be capable of achieving the fetid " you can do anything you set your mind to" garbage we feed to children (I would know, I grew up in the 90s). Instead, do what you can to improve upon your capabilities in a way in tune with reality and ignore the 1%. They are outliers, not necessarily examples of some heroic work ethic.

People can work their asses off and still fail, and some people will do far less and just get it. That is neither depressing nor empowering. It just is.


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## spudmunkey (Jun 10, 2021)

Target 125% speed for a while, then try 100%. It's like swinging a bat with weight on it while you're on deck.


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## USMarine75 (Jun 10, 2021)

TheInvisibleHand said:


> This is completely untrue. Unfortunately, the world is a unfailingly unfair place. And I don't mean this in the "woe is me" sort of way. I mean that most people would be better off if they were able to honestly admit to themselves that they may not be capable of achieving the fetid " you can do anything you set your mind to" garbage we feed to children (I would know, I grew up in the 90s). Instead, do what you can to improve upon your capabilities in a way in tune with reality and ignore the 1%. They are outliers, not necessarily examples of some heroic work ethic.
> 
> People can work their asses off and still fail, and some people will do far less and just get it. That is neither depressing nor empowering. It just is.



Sorry I guess you didn't detect the immense amount of sarcasm in my post


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## gnoll (Jun 10, 2021)

Oh so some people are just born bad guitar players?

I'm sorry but I call bs on that. Guitar playing is a skill we cultivate, not a genetic trait.

However mindset is a hugely powerful thing. If we think that we can't do something, then we probably can't.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 10, 2021)

gnoll said:


> Oh so some people are just born bad guitar players?
> 
> I'm sorry but I call bs on that. Guitar playing is a skill we cultivate, not a genetic trait.
> 
> However mindset is a hugely powerful thing. If we think that we can't do something, then we probably can't.



It's both. 

Something that needs to be worked on, and something that can or can't be inherent in natural ability. 

You ever see those videos of those kids, literally children, who can play the fuck out of instruments? How do you think that works? Were they woodshed'n in the womb, or is there perhaps a latent natural talent?

I know it's a bummer to think that maybe, even with all the determination and practice in the world you might never reach a certain level, but that's life. 

Again, just have some fun.


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## Matt08642 (Jun 10, 2021)

spudmunkey said:


> Target 125% speed for a while, then try 100%. It's like swinging a bat with weight on it while you're on deck.



Similar to this, I use big chunky doofus picks when I'm learning something difficult or with string skipping, then I switch to the Pick of Destiny aka this thing:







Everything is instantly easier.


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## nanthil (Jun 11, 2021)

gnoll said:


> Oh so some people are just born bad guitar players?
> 
> I'm sorry but I call bs on that. Guitar playing is a skill we cultivate, not a genetic trait.
> 
> However mindset is a hugely powerful thing. If we think that we can't do something, then we probably can't.



I'm not suggesting anyone is destined to be bad. My question was about what it takes to perfectly recreate something immensely difficult. 

You can be a great athlete and not qualify for the Olympic team.

You can get accepted to the athletic team and not win.

His point was that there are those who strive, suffer, struggle and will never get a podium spot. In guitarland that might be having to admit to yourself you'll never play that solo perfectly at the original tempo, and either play at tempo with mistakes, or slow it down to a more comfortable speed.

It isn't an esoteric, metaphysical idea, it is reality.


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## nanthil (Jun 11, 2021)

Matt08642 said:


> Similar to this, I use big chunky doofus picks when I'm learning something difficult or with string skipping, then I switch to the Pick of Destiny aka this thing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Actually I made huge gains practicing with the Dunlop 4.20 chungus pick. The thick flow picks (2.0 and up) are now my go to practice picks because it helps me to relax my pick grip like I never could in the past.

This is no bs, no meme advice, get the 4.20 Dunlop flow pick for alt picking and string skipping practice.


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## michael_bolton (Jun 11, 2021)

gnoll said:


> Guitar playing is a skill we cultivate, not a genetic trait.



It's a fine motor skill. It's baseline as well as the degree to which you can develop it is controlled by your genetic makeup. 

Good news is even though guitar playing has a pretty hefty athletic component to it (esp when we're talking shred) - it's not all about just that as opposed to e.g. running or swimming. It's also an art form so things are way less linear.

But again if you distill this down to the athletic component in its pure form - "can I play this super fast run as fast and clean as the top shredder" - your natural ability can defo be a limiting factor. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't push yourself to the limit of YOUR ability - it's just that this limit is different for diff ppl.


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## HungryGuitarStudent (Jun 11, 2021)

@nanthil

For me, it's a two phase process:

1. gaining speed-endurance-relaxation to bridge the 10% gap;
2. gaining control and polishing.

For the first step, I found that slowly increasing tempo helps to practice timing, but was not optimal in terms of learning the mechanics (including relaxation) of playing fast.

I followed the advice of Martin Miller, Andy James and Troy Grady on this: play above the tempo limit at which you're comfortable. Constant failure/analysis/experimentation is the quickest way to learn. Don't get me wrong, slowly increasing tempo helps develop a lot of other things, but in my experience has not given the quickest gains in terms of speed to close the gap.

After that, it's all about polishing... There's no secret here IMO, putting in the work and recording my practices (being hyper critical) helps.

The "problem" with "high performance guitar", is that you continuously have to maintain it and that you're bound to make mistakes anyways (e.g. Tony Hawk doesn't nail a 2080 or whatever every time).

Disclaimer: I'm nowhere near being done with those two phases (gaining speed, polishing), and yes, my slop haunts me at night 

My 0.02 ...


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## cwhitey2 (Jun 11, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Some folks will never be able to do it, no matter how hard they try. That's just how it is.
> 
> But that's okay.
> 
> ...


This. I physically can't do it. I have spent years practicing certain techniques only to be able to do them at maybe 80-85%


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## HungryGuitarStudent (Jun 11, 2021)

cwhitey2 said:


> This. I physically can't do it. I have spent years practicing certain techniques only to be able to do them at maybe 80-85%



How can you be sure you absolutely can't do it? I noodled 3 years as a teenager and hit an alt picking plateau. Picked the guitar back up in 2018, got more serious about it, used the aforementioned approach and exploded my bpm cap. Maybe I'm just stubborn, lucky or my standard are too low so it's easy to measure progress.




michael_bolton said:


> It's a fine motor skill. It's baseline as well as the degree to which you can develop it is controlled by your genetic makeup.
> 
> Good news is even though guitar playing has a pretty hefty athletic component to it (esp when we're talking shred) - it's not all about just that as opposed to e.g. running or swimming. It's also an art form so things are way less linear.
> 
> But again if you distill this down to the athletic component in its pure form - "can I play this super fast run as fast and clean as the top shredder" - your natural ability can defo be a limiting factor. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't push yourself to the limit of YOUR ability - it's just that this limit is different for diff ppl.



I remember talking about this to Troy Grady. What I got from that conversation is the impression that on average most people could probably get to alt picking 130 bpm sextuplets. The rest of the way (135-140 bpm like Taranto or Richardson) may be limited by genetic material. There's also a conditioning component since this is an athletic endeavor at that point, but yeah, there's a cap.


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## cwhitey2 (Jun 11, 2021)

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> How can you be sure you absolutely can't do it? Maybe I'm just stubborn.


I have been practicing the same stuff correctly for almost 8 years. I just can't get over that hump...but I also don't really care to at this point. My writing has changed over time and those skills are useless to me now.

Things like phrasing and solid rhythm are more important to me now.


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## HungryGuitarStudent (Jun 11, 2021)

cwhitey2 said:


> Things like phrasing and solid rhythm are more important to me now.



Same for me. I'll take a player with good intonation, phrasing, vibrato and timing over a shredder lacking in one of those areas any day for sure.



cwhitey2 said:


> I have been practicing the same stuff correctly for almost 8 years. I just can't get over that hump...but I also don't really care to at this point. My writing has changed over time and those skills are useless to me now.



Do you have an example of the stuff you were trying to nail? Just curious...


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## cwhitey2 (Jun 11, 2021)

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> Same for me. I'll take a player with good intonation, phrasing, vibrato and timing over a shredder lacking in one of those areas any day for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have an example of the stuff you were trying to nail? Just curious...


Anything Dying Fetus (shreddy solo shit) 

I can "play" them, just not at tempo or very accurate when I speed up beyond what I'm capable of.


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## wheresthefbomb (Jun 11, 2021)

I'm not a shredder, if anything my practice routine is built around playing slowly as accurately as possible, so take my input for what it is.

What I know is this, something I've seen oft-repeated and has been entirely born out by my experience:

When you perform, you're performing your batting average.

Being humans, Vai, Petrucci and the like have "off" moments or even days (I even had to check, a testament to the cult of virtuosity, but there are video comps of both their mistakes on YT). But the amount of practice behind their performance brings their "batting average" asymptotically close to 100% so that for human purposes, it may as well be.

This is also an excellent illustration of the folly of trying to be "best." Even the best aren't the best.

EDIT: 

the punchline here is that the closer you get to 100%, the more exponentially hard you will have to work because of diminishing returns. Good luck!


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## nickgray (Jun 11, 2021)

nanthil said:


> the amount of effort it requires to get to the level of polish they achieve in their live playing



Clean live playing on _that_ level is a pretty rare thing. Don't forget that they're also composers. It's definitely a full time job level of commitment, so unless you have a crazy amount of free time on your hands, I really wouldn't stress about this stuff as much. There are tons of excellent players who aren't nearly as clean live, but they definitely can record an excellent take in the studio. Didn't stop them from achieving legendary status either. Plus the whole ultra skilled shred thing is a niche too.

Imo, unless you're super set on gaining that ultra specific and niche level of skill - just don't bother beyond a certain point. You have a limited amount of time and it doesn't matter how much of a shred god you are if your composition skills suck or if you're producing from your bedroom and you can't mix for shit.

Another thing - don't forget that technical shred solos are usually only a small part of the whole track. I remember Petrucci saying once in the interview something along the lines of "I'm known for highly technical guitar lead skills, but really 90% of the time I'm just playing riffs". A well composed and produced track with zero solos is miles better than a boring track that sounds like ass, but has a cleanly played fast solo. Imo, at least.


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## nickgray (Jun 11, 2021)

Oh, and another aspect that I think can be easily missed. Or at least I don't really see people talking about it. In a lot of cases, in fact I think in most cases, the really highly regarded albums are the early ones. The ones that people write in their late teens and 20s. Then bands go to shit usually. Even Petrucci - DT never jumped above those early albums, Metropolis Pt.2 was the last "big" one. A lot of people (myself included, so I'm obviously biased here) hold I&W in super high regard. Tons of other bands have the same problem. Megadeth? Peaked at Rust in Peace. Opeth? Blackwater Park (probably, I dunno, Ghost Reveries is also good, Still Life is also good). Iron Maiden? Seventh Son, way back in 1988. Cynic? Focus. Metallica? RtL or MoP. Children of Bodom? Never topped their first 3. Necrophagist? Godlike 2 albums, and then dude went to work at BMW. Blind Guardian? Legendary 4 albums from Twilight to Nightfall, and that's kind of it. Gojira? That's it, after Magma and the last one I don't think we'll ever hear the old Gojira. I can do this all day long.

The point is, getting to the "pro" level of composing legendary albums takes 5-10 years. Beyond that, additional experience doesn't seem to help even the pros themselves. The bands themselves seem to have an average of 10-ish years before they dwindle.


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## michael_bolton (Jun 11, 2021)

nickgray said:


> Oh, and another aspect that I think can be easily missed. Or at least I don't really see people talking about it. In a lot of cases, in fact I think in most cases, the really highly regarded albums are the early ones. The ones that people write in their late teens and 20s. Then bands go to shit usually. ....



I think this has more to do with a sheer number of ideas ppl can generate or how far they are venturing - which is also situational - e.g. style changes worked great for Chuck (imo) while something like Reload I don't think I ever heard it in it's entirety lol after growing up with early 'Tallica tunes, so there's defo a fine line there.


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## nanthil (Jun 12, 2021)

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> How can you be sure you absolutely can't do it?



I am a pedant myself so I can understand the question, but "can't" is often used in some sort present immediate tense rather than a future perpetual tense most of the time. 

Right now in this immediate space, my accuracy falls off around 150 bpm 16ths, and even then is full of muscle and tension rather than relaxation. Understanding what that relaxation and accuracy feels like at other tempos clues me in that I can't (i.e. currently unable at the present moment), not in an esoteric self-defeated way, Though I understand the duplicity of words and how using words like can't have an impact on your subconscious. 

Bernth on YouTube has mentioned several times this idea of going above your speed level. He recommends bursts of speed (like 4 measures of 16ths with 2 measures of rest, quarter notes etc) and I've found mild improvement, but I haven't been at it long so it's become a staple of my daily practice. One of my biggest questions in this new speed zone is how much muscle do you need? It feels like past a certain speed you really need to be using strength to support the speed. I.e. my wrist will be relaxed but to string skip, I find my forearm is burning. How much muscle do you actually use when playing at high speeds?


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## HungryGuitarStudent (Jun 12, 2021)

nanthil said:


> I am a pedant myself so I can understand the question, but "can't" is often used in some sort present immediate tense rather than a future perpetual tense most of the time.
> 
> Right now in this immediate space, my accuracy falls off around 150 bpm 16ths, and even then is full of muscle and tension rather than relaxation. Understanding what that relaxation and accuracy feels like at other tempos clues me in that I can't (i.e. currently unable at the present moment), not in an esoteric self-defeated way, Though I understand the duplicity of words and how using words like can't have an impact on your subconscious.
> 
> Bernth on YouTube has mentioned several times this idea of going above your speed level. He recommends bursts of speed (like 4 measures of 16ths with 2 measures of rest, quarter notes etc) and I've found mild improvement, but I haven't been at it long so it's become a staple of my daily practice. One of my biggest questions in this new speed zone is how much muscle do you need? It feels like past a certain speed you really need to be using strength to support the speed. I.e. my wrist will be relaxed but to string skip, I find my forearm is burning. How much muscle do you actually use when playing at high speeds?



Didn't know I was being pedantic hehe. It was an honest question.

Bursts of speed a la Paul Gilbert didn't help me gain speed, but they did help me with timing and remembering on what stroke (up or down) a run should start.

What works for me at the moment is, as discussed, going at failure tempo, frequent breaks and analyzing the hell out of what works and what doesn't.

There's a ton of parameters to go through (pick angle, pick grip, arm angle, wrist angle, etc.) and I try to test a ton of combinations, taking a note of what works and what doesn't.

I'm a "legato guy" and doing this has brought me from a failure boundary for alt picking 16th-note-triplets (3 notes per string) at 112 bpm to 130 bpm.

IMO, relaxation comes with time and with experimenting with the mechanical aspects I mentioned.

Anyhow, I'm sure you know all that. Whatever works for you man


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## nanthil (Jun 12, 2021)

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> Didn't know I was being pedantic hehe. It was an honest question.
> ...
> Anyhow, I'm sure you know all that. Whatever works for you man




Haha! I don't know if you are, but I certainly was. When you're getting to the point of discussing minute differences, clearly bounding terms helps to ensure clear communication so we're not communicating past each other. 

I appreciate your insights, and suggestions. I'm playing well past my threshold today, and my muscles are flailing all over the place. I suppose that's the first phase of new muscular control? I'm hoping so. 

Also picked up a few other tabs for super fast trem picking to see if I can't push the alt picking further, independent of the string skipping. 

*Here's a question I've had with regard to "playing" vs "practicing".* When you are working up a piece to full speed, how much benefit is there in practicing that specific piece rather than more general practice, like cross-training for runners, and general strength and flexibility training. Runners don't just run all day, they have to do squats, and lunges, and abdominal work, and etc etc. How much of that mindset transfers to guitar playing? Is it enough to practice a piece precisely, and how much independent technique practice do you do alongside that?


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## HungryGuitarStudent (Jun 12, 2021)

nanthil said:


> Haha! I don't know if you are, but I certainly was. When you're getting to the point of discussing minute differences, clearly bounding terms helps to ensure clear communication so we're not communicating past each other.



I agree that defining terminology is key.



nanthil said:


> *Here's a question I've had with regard to "playing" vs "practicing".*



Good question. I guess the line gets blurry between "exercise" and "learning a solo" when you learn, say, a John Petrucci solo and keep drilling a specific run in that solo (it becomes a focused exercise). 

Personally, I either come up with my own runs, or just learn a solo, focusing on polishing certain runs in it. I still play the whole thing since it cross-trains other aspects (vibrato, etc.). In other words, I try to keep it musical and work on all aspects, while giving more emphasis on the specific skill I want to work on (timing, vibrato, intonation, legato, picking, etc.).


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## odibrom (Jun 16, 2021)

"Play as if you were exercising and exercise as if you were playing..."


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