# Synergy Amps, Are They Worth It?



## XPT707FX

I'm curious if anyone has any experience with their stuff, because I've been thinking about getting a single module preamp. Specifically the VH4 one.


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## dirtool

I am thinking to get a syn1 too, is it free to choose any module preamp?


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## MaxOfMetal

How much savings is there between a full Synergy setup (module, dock, power amp, etc.) vs. a used VH2 or VH4 (around $2500)?

I think the real question is whether you're ready to invest in the Synergy system and it's modularity instead of just grabbing an amp to use with whatever cab you might already have. 

Use case matters too. Are you just bedroom jamming or going to be using this live in a band setting?


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## JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo

Can't speak for OP, but I'm considering the Synergy route because for £1600 I can get a SYN30 and an SLO module, whereas a Soldano almost never pops up used here, and when it does it's... Expensive. Same with a Diezel. Never seen a VH4 for less than £1800 on the used market.

I mean... Why wouldn't you want to when it sounds like this (2:44):


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## XPT707FX

I'm just a bedroom player and my plan would be to use it to add a few channels to my Mt15


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## Spinedriver

That plus it's the initial investment of the dock (and possibly a power amp) that's the kicker. After that, the modules seem to be reasonably priced (considering how much pre-amp based pedals are going for these days), so if after a while you end up not liking the SLO module, for less than the cost of a new amp, you can get a Diezel, Friedman, Engl, etc.. 

I think it's pretty ideal for people that like to have a variety of tones on hand but either don't want to deal with programming modelers like a Kemper or Axe Fx or tend to either flip amps frequently and/or don't have the money or space to have half a dozen amp heads stacked up in a room.


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## laxu

OliOliver said:


> Can't speak for OP, but I'm considering the Synergy route because for £1600 I can get a SYN30 and an SLO module, whereas a Soldano almost never pops up used here, and when it does it's... Expensive. Same with a Diezel. Never seen a VH4 for less than £1800 on the used market.



Everything that the Synergy modules hook into is severely overpriced. The SYN30 and SYN50 are literally the most expensive mono guitar poweramps on the market. The modules themselves are reasonably priced.

I don't believe in the module swapping either. You will most likely buy a few, then settle on a couple of them and never change them because it's a chore. It's one of those ideas that works great when you are buying the thing where you can choose your favorite bits trying each at the store and take those home.


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## mnemonic

I’ve seen more bad reviews than good about the power amps. The modules however mostly get good reviews. The SLO specifically, everyone seems to like that one. 

I think the synergy stuff makes more sense if you already have a rack setup, or if you just want to add some sounds to an existing amp. Buying a full synergy setup is very pricy, and maybe not worth it unless you just gotta have specific sounds that any one amp can’t do, and also you don’t want to go digital. 

Having access to all those modded MTS modules is cool too. There’s a few of those I’d really like to try.


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## Bentaycanada

I had the SYN-1 unit, and only used Randall / custom modules with it. I didn't actually get my hands on any Synergy mods. The unit itself is very impressive. Using it with a Fender HRD was simple, and very effective! I ran Marshall, Fryette, Mesa, and Bogner style mods with it, all with great success.

As far as the Synergy mods are concerned, I've heard lots of really good things. The SLO seems to be generally accepted as the most popular mod. With the upcoming Bogner and Fryette modules, I can see myself edging back towards it.


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## Spinedriver

This kinda begs the question.. If the old MTS modules work with the SYN-1, how compatible are the Synergy modules with the old MTS amps ? I think I read somewhere that they sorta do but only with certain models or something like that ?
If that's the case, some of those old MTS units aren't that expensive and if some of the Synergy modules will work with it, that could be a possible solution for those that can't afford the SYN units.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands

Spinedriver said:


> This kinda begs the question.. If the old MTS modules work with the SYN-1, how compatible are the Synergy modules with the old MTS amps ? I think I read somewhere that they sorta do but only with certain models or something like that ?
> If that's the case, some of those old MTS units aren't that expensive and if some of the Synergy modules will work with it, that could be a possible solution for those that can't afford the SYN units.



If it's anything like the old Egnator MOD series, it seems to be that they should work, but you can't switch channels on the individual models.


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## PuriPuriPrisoner

A single module dock and 2 modules cost like $1200 and you’d still need a poweramp. A good amount of tone comes from the poweramp too. I feel like an axe fx is just a better value imo. A III costs as much as a single dock and 4 modules and you get poweramp modeling, effects, etc. with the axe fx. It isn’t worth it unless you're an analog elitist imo (although I haven’t tried one so take my opinion with a grain of salt).


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## JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo

laxu said:


> Everything that the Synergy modules hook into is severely overpriced. The SYN30 and SYN50 are literally the most expensive mono guitar poweramps on the market. The modules themselves are reasonably priced.
> 
> I don't believe in the module swapping either. You will most likely buy a few, then settle on a couple of them and never change them because it's a chore. It's one of those ideas that works great when you are buying the thing where you can choose your favorite bits trying each at the store and take those home.



Given the price of all amps besides Marshall, Orange, and Laney in the UK, it's really not that expensive compared to all your other popular amp brands. A Synergy setup costs less than a 100w EVH. Overpriced? I wouldn't say so, considering it sits around the same £1-2k range as most mid to high grade amps.

That being said, I'd rather have a straight up amp, I don't like having too many options. I'd kill for a Soldano HR50+, but it's just not on the cards unless one magically appears on eBay etc, whereas a SYN30 is a much more plausible alternative.


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## c7spheres

They're working on a new module with Steve Vai also, but no word on a release date or anything.


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## Jeff

I really want to like it, but the problem is that a single dock with one module is $900. The Fractal FM3 is $1000, the L6 Stomp is $600, both of which allow you to switch your amp's preamp back in and out. I know it's somewhat apples/oranges, but with modelers getting so good, that's who they're competing with.


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## StevenC

c7spheres said:


> They're working on a new module with Steve Vai also, but no word on a release date or anything.


Looks like I'm getting into Synergy then


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## Spinedriver

Jeff said:


> I really want to like it, but the problem is that a single dock with one module is $900. The Fractal FM3 is $1000, the L6 Stomp is $600, both of which allow you to switch your amp's preamp back in and out. I know it's somewhat apples/oranges, but with modelers getting so good, that's who they're competing with.



That's kinda what I was getting at earlier. There are a good number of people that enjoy having access to multiple 'tones' but don't want to have to deal with scrolling though menus, remembering where certain patches are stored, etc... Put an SLO module on one side and a Diezel on the other and you'd be pretty much all set, without having to lug around 2 seperate heads, deal with an amp switcher, etc...


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## Jeff

Spinedriver said:


> That's kinda what I was getting at earlier. There are a good number of people that enjoy having access to multiple 'tones' but don't want to have to deal with scrolling though menus, remembering where certain patches are stored, etc... Put an SLO module on one side and a Diezel on the other and you'd be pretty much all set, without having to lug around 2 seperate heads, deal with an amp switcher, etc...



Oh I get it, trust me. I actually really get frustrated with modelers, because most presets sound like crap to me, and they're never as simple as just pulling up an amp and IR.


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## oniduder

not in my opinion, just get the real deal rather than the cloney type thing

but for gigging i think it does make a lot of sense, frankly if i wasn't a third bedroom room rock star and actually played with others i'd just get the axe fx, 

but for a tube set up, nope, i'd save and buy whatever amp i want...


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## Spinedriver

Jeff said:


> Oh I get it, trust me. I actually really get frustrated with modelers, because most presets sound like crap to me, and they're never as simple as just pulling up an amp and IR.



I's funny you say that. In well over 15 years of using modellers of all shapes & sizes, I've never had a single one where the pre-sets were any good. Every single time I try a new one, I just go immediately to the empty 'user' banks and just start from there.


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## wakjob

I think this stuff is great. 
And going by videos, it's sounds fantastic.

Pricey? Uh yeah. No free lunch.
All the snobs demanded versatility & tube tonezzzzz.
Well that comes with a price.

And some of these are not cloney type things, they are actually made by their inventors like Dave Friedman and Mike Soldano ect...

I like the fact that the Synergy products change voltages with their different respective modules. Voltages are so very important to the feel and sound of a preamp. That will help with making each one actually different, and not vanilla or homogeneous with just more or less gain.

Having the single table top module loader with all its functionality is a nobrainer for the modern home DAW.

Hopefully the dual rack unit will be in my future by winter.


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## Bearitone

Does anyone know if there will be any Orange modules for Synergy?


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## c7spheres

StevenC said:


> Looks like I'm getting into Synergy then


 I wonder if the Vai model will be based on the Legacy or a totally new thing. Probably teh Legacy is my guess.


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## Jeff

Spinedriver said:


> I's funny you say that. In well over 15 years of using modellers of all shapes & sizes, I've never had a single one where the pre-sets were any good. Every single time I try a new one, I just go immediately to the empty 'user' banks and just start from there.



I do too, but it’s still not as simple as tossing a mic in front of a good tube amp. I go back to the OG Bean 20 years ago.


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## MetalDaze

I’m a believer. I’m using a syn1 into a port city pearl with a Fryette 2x12. 

I have four modules and rank them this way as far as my tastes:

1. ENGL Savage
2. SLO
3. VH4
4. Friedman HBE

But they all sound good.


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## op1e

They work with MTS, just grab an RM100 for $350-500. You can't channel change the mods unless you pull them out and flip a switch. But there's a guy that makes the midi unit to replace the on in the RM so you can. Empty RM4's go for around $400. I love my setup, I'm just using the Blackface and SL+ right now with a BE OD and Buxom Boost. Sold my Salvation mod in a pinch but I wanna get the SLO next.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands

op1e said:


> They work with MTS, just grab an RM100 for $350-500. You can't channel change the mods unless you pull them out and flip a switch. But there's a guy that makes the midi unit to replace the on in the RM so you can. Empty RM4's go for around $400. I love my setup, I'm just using the Blackface and SL+ right now with a BE OD and Buxom Boost. Sold my Salvation mod in a pinch but I wanna get the SLO next.



That's actually better than what they offer now. IIRC the most "versatile" and loudest head they offer rn is the 50w 2ch SYN50. A modded RM100 would be cool as hell because not only do you get that extra headroom, but you also get the extra channel so you could have like...6 fucking channels.


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## KnightBrolaire

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> That's actually better than what they offer now. IIRC the most "versatile" and loudest head they offer rn is the 50w 2ch SYN50. A modded RM100 would be cool as hell because not only do you get that extra headroom, but you also get the extra channel so you could have like...6 fucking channels.


oooh baby, vh4 and savage br00tz on the same amp as fender twin cleans


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## Krucifixtion

Great in theory, but I would probably never spend the money on it all. I have looked into their power amp for my Axe-Fx, but even that is a little pricey. However, if you compare with the standard Fryette power amps it's not really that bad.


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## wakjob

I think Steve Fryette and/or Dave Friedman designed the poweramp.

I remember Dave saying in a Tone Talk that 5881 tubes are the only CP power tubes worth buying in bulk for business b/c the state of el34's is pretty bad right now. And that's why they choose them in the beginning of Synergy.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands

wakjob said:


> I think Steve Fryette and/or Dave Friedman designed the poweramp.
> 
> I remember Dave saying in a Tone Talk that 5881 tubes are the only CP power tubes worth buying in bulk for business b/c the state of el34's is pretty bad right now. And that's why they choose them in the beginning of Synergy.



Fryette designed the power amp.


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## 0rimus

Like most here, I love the concept, the prices are... Eh, whatever. Could be better. But my problem is the same I have with most modellers:

Not. Enough. Preamps.

I've used various digital modellers with between 10-30 amp head models and hated every single one even running external IRs.

You say Engl and I think Powerball...
Not Savage or Fireball.

You say Marshall and I think JCM900... Not JCM800 or Plexi

So admittedly I'm a weirdo. But if they'd just release that damn Pitbull UL module lol


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## op1e

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> That's actually better than what they offer now. IIRC the most "versatile" and loudest head they offer rn is the 50w 2ch SYN50. A modded RM100 would be cool as hell because not only do you get that extra headroom, but you also get the extra channel so you could have like...6 fucking channels.



Well that and you can bias the amp yourself and run any glass you want.


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## cardinal

Just a note about using the Synergy modules with older Randall or Egnator stuff:

The really cool feature (to me) of the Synergy stuff is that they have three different V1 circuits so that they can better match the amps that the module is supposed to emulate.

With all of these systems, the input and V1 stage is not part of the module: it's part of dock. And with the Randall and Egnator stuff, V1 is always the same, and they went with Fender-type values. But that's going to be a bit too fat and warm for the more Marshall type preamps. So they had to make compromises elsewhere in the preamp to tighten it up.

But with Synergy, you can have Fender-type V1 values for your Fender preamps and Marshall-type V1 values for your Marshall preamps (and there's a third for the SLO). That allows Synergy to more closely follow the circuits of the amps they're emulating.

And so if you can use the Synergy modules with the Randall and Engator stuff, keep in mind it's not going to sound the same as with actual Synergy dock/preamp unless it's a Fender module.


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## op1e

Huh? Are you talking about the Cathode Selector Switch? Cause that's on the module. The docks just have Sag and level. You change the cathode selector on the module.


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## cardinal

op1e said:


> Huh? Are you talking about the Cathode Selector Switch? Cause that's on the module. The docks just have Sag and level. You change the cathode selector on the module.



I think the dock has V1 and the three different circuits for it. The module controls which of the V1 circuits is used. 

I'm pretty sure you don't plug your guitar into the module. You plug into the dock, which has one preamp tube, which would be the first stage (V1).


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## Fred the Shred

"Worth it" is always the tricky question. They sound great, they feel great, and they appear to be quite well built affairs, so the quality is there for sure. The system is quite expensive, though, and that can't be neglected, of course, but the applications are numerous and quite well thought out, so it's definitely up to the buyer to judge whether the painful initial investment is worth it in the end, considering that the more modules you get over time, the more said cost is mitigated by not forking out the money for the actual amp it represents.


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## c7spheres

- When Synergy comes out with more modules I'd be more interested. Right now they look like a great setup, but not enough choices in modules. I always liked those Randall's too, but for the money I need more options. 
- I understand these things can take time, especially with other manufacturers involved, but at least come out with more of your own brand name modules to fill the Mesa, Orange and even Bass amp gaps. They need at least one good Bass module in there. 
- Another thing that concerns me is how they plug in like an old Nintendo 8-bit cartridge. Am I gonna have to constantly be blowing inside it to make it work down the road like a Nintendo cartridge so I doesn't start giving me static and dirty pot type noises? : )


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## cardinal

c7spheres said:


> - When Synergy comes out with more modules I'd be more interested. Right now they look like a great setup, but not enough choices in modules. I always liked those Randall's too, but for the money I need more options.
> - I understand these things can take time, especially with other manufacturers involved, but at least come out with more of your own brand name modules to fill the Mesa, Orange and even Bass amp gaps. They need at least one good Bass module in there.
> - Another thing that concerns me is how they plug in like an old Nintendo 8-bit cartridge. Am I gonna have to constantly be blowing inside it to make it work down the road like a Nintendo cartridge so I doesn't start giving me static and dirty pot type noises? : )



The Fender Bassman and T/DLX probably would work well with a bass. I think the T/DLX has a channel based on the Fender Twin? If so, one of the most iconic bass preamps is the Alembic F1X which is essentially a copy of the Fender Twin preamp (ok, it's a copy of the Showman, which is very similar to the Twin). Of course, having more modules (like an SVT) wouldn't hurt.

Problem for bass isn't really the preamps, but the power and the cabinets. I suspect that most would balk at anything less than 200 watts and would grumble at anything less than 300 watts.


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## op1e

cardinal said:


> I think the dock has V1 and the three different circuits for it. The module controls which of the V1 circuits is used.
> 
> I'm pretty sure you don't plug your guitar into the module. You plug into the dock, which has one preamp tube, which would be the first stage (V1).



You're talking about gain stages. The Randall stuff works the same way. There's a preamp tube in the heads and rm4. The cathode selector switch is on the module and changes cap values on the module itself to determine how tight the module is. Make sure you're informed before throwing all this info around willy nilly. I've been following Bruce Egnater and watched him leave Randall and redevelop MTS into Synergy over the last ten years (took almost that long). There's not much difference in the tech on the module itself.


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## jsmalleus

Everyone has different needs, so ymmv depending on what you want to do, but I have no regrets about moving to synergy/mts, it was an absolute game changer for me. I was on the initial preorder batch so it's been a couple years now, and it still blows my mind every time I turn it on after going down the tone chasing rabbit hole in years prior. Empty shelves where the amps used to be are in the garage now.


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## wakjob

If Dave Friedman or Mike Soldano made an all-tube high voltage pedal that was a verbatim (or near) clone of their high dollar amps...for $399?

people would be tripping over themselves to get one.

I think the commitment is the receiving docks and amps.
That's where upfront cost stings.

But the modules themselves? They're a bargain in my eyes.


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## cardinal

op1e said:


> You're talking about gain stages. The Randall stuff works the same way. There's a preamp tube in the heads and rm4. The cathode selector switch is on the module and changes cap values on the module itself to determine how tight the module is. Make sure you're informed before throwing all this info around willy nilly. I've been following Bruce Egnater and watched him leave Randall and redevelop MTS into Synergy over the last ten years (took almost that long). There's not much difference in the tech on the module itself.



This is what I'm talking about. Posted by Jaded Faith in another forum. I'll let him do the explaining then:

"*In all systems MTS, the initial gain stage is always in the amp itself.* *The modules contain the 2nd through 5th stages* and use as many as the need in a configuration of signal flow that is most traditional to the given circuit being emulated. For example, a Fender clean preamp like a stock Blackface would flow through the amps initial stage, plate coupled to the EQ, into a makeup gain stage and out through a cathode follower (not a traditional decision, but not all that significant either). A stock Plexi module would flow through the amps initial stage, through two more gain stages (again, a Plexi would have only had one here, but that's also why a stock Plexi can have more gain than the real deal. Trade offs for system flexibility) and then feed the EQ through a cathode follower.

Because gain stages in series are exponential regarding signal growth, the initial stage has a very significant influence on everything after it. *The original Randall and Egnater MTS amps had a traditional Fender stage up front made up of a 100K plate resistor*, 1K5 cathode resistor and a 22uF bypass cap. This provides a nearly full-frequency amplification (35.46dB) from 100hZ up, which covers almost all of the guitars relevant frequency range. A low E is 82Hz and the roll off is only 0.05dB down from 100Hz to 82Hz. Think of this as biasing the preamp tube stage.

The other two variations provided via the Synergy modules and hardware are a 2K7/0.68uF (traditional in a Marshall or Friedman) or a 1K8/1uF (traditional in a Soldano, Mesa Rectifier and Peavey 5150). The 2K7/0.68uF stage provides 35.45dB of amplification gain from about 1500hZ and up and rolls off to 28.88dB at 82Hz. The 1K8/1uF stage provides 35.45dB of amplification gain from about 1000hZ and up and 30.64dB at 82hZ. Similar to the Marshall-style selection, just a touch thicker sounding. The Fender-style selection of 1K5/22uF will be perceived as louder and thicker sounding by a good bit.

When modding modules, we always had to compensate for the first stage that we can not change at the module level. Various things were done like changing the initial coupling cap (the "C3" mods or switches documented here) or various other tuning decisions. The Tight/Bright switches on the Egnater dual channel modules provided variety stock in this respect. Various switches on modified modules added other options. When installing the JFM Input PCB, I often ask if there is a preference and build the front end accordingly. Dave Friedman typically changes it to a traditional Marshall stage on the MTS amps he has modified.

What is cool about the Synergy circuit is the ability to try three options at the stock module level. Just because something is "traditional" doesn't make it best for each player and situation.

Hope this helps clear some confusion up."


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## cardinal

And if I look on Jaded Faith's site, the 3-way cathode mod to be "like the Synergy hardware" is a mod offered for "MTS Amps"
https://jadedfaithmods.com/mts-amp-mods

I don't see mention of input cathode mods on the page for the module mods
https://jadedfaithmods.com/mts-modules


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## Spinedriver

wakjob said:


> If Dave Friedman or Mike Soldano made an all-tube high voltage pedal that was a verbatim (or near) clone of their high dollar amps...for $399?
> 
> people would be tripping over themselves to get one.
> 
> I think the commitment is the receiving docks and amps.
> That's where upfront cost stings.
> 
> But the modules themselves? They're a bargain in my eyes.



That was kinda what I was thinking as well. Given that there are a good number of people that buy an amp, keep it for a few months and flip it for something else, these modules are cheap enough that if they aren't super impressed, they can probably hang onto it & still be able to afford a new one.


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## op1e

I see what you're saying there. I've been wanting to get the input stage on the head itself. I could never get it as laser sharp as my Peavey Ultra, but the power section of the Randall far outshines and makes up for it. Other people on the MTS forums have said they've done it and not much difference, snake oil. Regardless, I've read it's a subtle difference between a Synergy mod being in a Randall setup or Synergy dock/head. Will it sound slightly better? Yes. But cutting the price of jumping on board down to a fraction is worth it.


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## op1e

cardinal said:


> And if I look on Jaded Faith's site, the 3-way cathode mod to be "like the Synergy hardware" is a mod offered for "MTS Amps"
> https://jadedfaithmods.com/mts-amp-mods
> 
> I don't see mention of input cathode mods on the page for the module mods
> https://jadedfaithmods.com/mts-modules



I was referring to the Synergy mods, not MTS. Like I said the 3 way cathode switch is built into the Synergy modules.


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## cardinal

op1e said:


> I was referring to the Synergy mods, not MTS. Like I said the 3 way cathode switch is built into the Synergy modules.



The *switch* is in the module. Yes. 

Where is the V1 circuit that the switch actuates? I believe it's in the Synergy amp, not the Synergy module. 

All of my discussion has been that the Randall and Egnater amp hardware cannot select the different V1 circuits like the Synergy hardware (apparently unless modded). So it was a caution not to assume the Synergy modules sound as good with the Randall and Egnater hardware.


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## cardinal

op1e said:


> I see what you're saying there. I've been wanting to get the input stage on the head itself. I could never get it as laser sharp as my Peavey Ultra, but the power section of the Randall far outshines and makes up for it. Other people on the MTS forums have said they've done it and not much difference, snake oil. Regardless, I've read it's a subtle difference between a Synergy mod being in a Randall setup or Synergy dock/head. Will it sound slightly better? Yes. But cutting the price of jumping on board down to a fraction is worth it.



Ok. You've insinuated that I'm spreading misinformation. What have i said that was wrong? I will edit it.

But from everything that I've posted:
1) all of the modules have only the "2nd through the 5th stages." If the Synergy modules somehow had the 1st stage, that would be very different than the Randall/Egnater stuff. If you used a Synergy module with a Randall amp, which V1 is used? How is one of them bypassed?

2) the Synergy modules select the input cathode bypass values for V1 when used with the Synergy amp/dock. But the V1 circuit itself is part of the dock, and a stock Randall/Egnater amp has only one value (the Fender value), so the Synergy module must use the Fender values if used with one of those older amps.

3) So if you're using Synergy modules with a stock Randall/Egnater amp, it will only sound the same as the Synergy system if you're using the Fender modules. Otherwise, the V1 cathode bypass won't be what Synergy intended.

If something in there is misinformed, please post up some links to explain where I've gone wrong.


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## op1e

There was a very confused area between gain stages and cathode values. The first gain stage is always in the amp or the device that carries the module in either platform, don't believe i stated otherwise. MTS or Synergy. As for the rest per everything I read, there's nothing getting "chosen" in the Synergy docks by the module. It's a switch within the module you manually manipulate to change the desired feel of the preamp. The dock is just a dock and provides the 1st gain stage per a 12ax7.

My main point being; You can still change the cathode values on the module, put it in an MTS amp and the difference will be nominal in comparison to a Synergy dock. I've read as much on the Synergy/MTS forums from users who've tried both.


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## cardinal

op1e said:


> There was a very confused area between gain stages and cathode values. The first gain stage is always in the amp or the device that carries the module in either platform, don't believe i stated otherwise. MTS or Synergy. As for the rest per everything I read, there's nothing getting "chosen" in the Synergy docks by the module. It's a switch within the module you manually manipulate to change the desired feel of the preamp. The dock is just a dock and provides the 1st gain stage per a 12ax7.
> 
> My main point being; You can still change the cathode values on the module, put it in an MTS amp and the difference will be nominal in comparison to a Synergy dock. I've read as much on the Synergy/MTS forums from users who've tried both.



How can a Synergy module change the cathode bypass values of a Randall/Egnator amp's V1 when V1 is not on the module but on the Randall itself? The module has only the 2nd+ stages, and Randall/Egnator amps do not have multiple cathode bypass values unless modded.


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## c7spheres

So it's possible to plug a Jaded Faith or Salvation mod into the Synergy dock then? That's got me thinking a lot harder now. I'd guess it probably voids any warranties though. 3 years is a pretty good warranty they offer.


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## cardinal

c7spheres said:


> So it's possible to plug a Jaded Faith or Salvation mod into the Synergy dock then? That's got me thinking a lot harder now. I'd guess it probably voids any warranties though. 3 years is a pretty good warranty they offer.



That I don't know. Most of the chatter is about using it the other way (Synergy modules with the RM4 etc).


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## cardinal

op1e said:


> There was a very confused area between gain stages and cathode values. The first gain stage is always in the amp or the device that carries the module in either platform, don't believe i stated otherwise. MTS or Synergy. As for the rest per everything I read, there's nothing getting "chosen" in the Synergy docks by the module. It's a switch within the module you manually manipulate to change the desired feel of the preamp. The dock is just a dock and provides the 1st gain stage per a 12ax7.
> 
> My main point being; You can still change the cathode values on the module, put it in an MTS amp and the difference will be nominal in comparison to a Synergy dock. I've read as much on the Synergy/MTS forums from users who've tried both.



Another quote from Jaded Faith:
"The initial gain stage is always in the chassis and never on the module in both MTS and Synergy. The Synergy modules have a switch on the module that tells the Synergy chassis what setting to used based on the setting. The manual switch I add is on the chassis itself. It accomplishes the same thing, but as a global level and not sensing the module switch setting. The added benefit is the ability to switch it externally on the fly and make an informed decision by auditioning the setting without powering down, removing the module and losing your reference."

The V1 cathode bypass circuitry is on the amp/dock. The Synergy dock has three values. The Synergy module tells the dock which one to use. 

The Randall dock can be modded to have a manual switch to have the different cathode bypass circuits. 

But this is on the dock. The switch is on the Synergy modules.


----------



## c7spheres

cardinal said:


> That I don't know. Most of the chatter is about using it the other way (Synergy modules with the RM4 etc).


Oh, I'll have to wait for someone to try it I guess.


----------



## jsmalleus

c7spheres said:


> So it's possible to plug a Jaded Faith or Salvation mod into the Synergy dock then? That's got me thinking a lot harder now. I'd guess it probably voids any warranties though. 3 years is a pretty good warranty they offer.



You definitely can and 90% of the time it works perfectly, but mind that the odd module out can behave a bit weird as I don't think all the older mts modules are necessarily of uniform length. Sometimes you have to make super sure they're pushed as far in as they can go and locked down tight, sometimes you have to insert em, but do so loosely (i.e. not screw them the whole way in), but most mts modules seem to work perfectly fine, I've just come across a couple that were a bit finicky.


----------



## Descent

I've been into the MTS and am looking at this, of course. I just don't know if it is worth the extra effort for me.
I am generally a 2 channel amp with a boost kinda guy, so if you can give me good or decent clean and a great gain channel with a solo boost - I am happy. Off the bat, the Dual Rectifier, Orange Rockerverb, Mesa Mark V, etc. all have that. So in order to go modular, I'd have to care more about my cleans or my dirt than one of these amps can do.
I can totally see the modularity working great if I were to own a studio or work as a producer. I can buy all the modules and have clients swap as needed.
The price is really not that bad. A new JCM800 is pretty much in the vicinity of a Synergy amp, and the Mesas are even more expensive new.

I honestly wouldn't put a Kemper or Axe Fx modeling garbage in the running.


----------



## cardinal

Descent said:


> I've been into the MTS and am looking at this, of course. I just don't know if it is worth the extra effort for me.
> I am generally a 2 channel amp with a boost kinda guy, so if you can give me good or decent clean and a great gain channel with a solo boost - I am happy. Off the bat, the Dual Rectifier, Orange Rockerverb, Mesa Mark V, etc. all have that. So in order to go modular, I'd have to care more about my cleans or my dirt than one of these amps can do.
> I can totally see the modularity working great if I were to own a studio or work as a producer. I can buy all the modules and have clients swap as needed.
> The price is really not that bad. A new JCM800 is pretty much in the vicinity of a Synergy amp, and the Mesas are even more expensive new.
> 
> I honestly wouldn't put a Kemper or Axe Fx modeling garbage in the running.



Yeah, the concept is cool but it's not for everyone (it's not for me!). For me, I spend the vast majority of my time with a Marshall-type high gain overdriven sound. So I don't want that compromised: I pick what works for that and then just make due with what I can get for the limited times I spend with some other tone. 

The modular stuff I think is for the person that spends significant amounts of time in a variety of tone situations. That player might be more willing to make small compromises everywhere just to have the variety. If these modules get you most of the way there for Fender, Marshall, and Mesa type tones all in one place in a form that can actually be carried to a gig and footswitched, then it could be a really great thing for those players.

(Modelers are a whole other option. Some people like them, some don't. Just like everything else).


----------



## c7spheres

They just need more modules. Like, a lot more. Oh, and keep making them available too. Don't do this limited edition stuff, or we don't make the one everyone wants anymore stuff, or we don't service that any more stuff etc. Just keep kicking ass and improving while still servicing older customers and products, keep the quality good, don't sell out, and this company will probably eventually become a standard from what I can see. This idea is not new, but it really just needs to be executed properly. Synergy seems to be on a good path.


----------



## odibrom

I think this Synergy stuff is pretty cool. It gives the opportunity for people to experiment on different sounding amps and keeping the price "low". I mean, I have no way of testing lots of different amps, like Diezels or Orange, or Marshall. Ok, one could eventually know how they sound through youtube videos, but that's way different than to feel the amp's voice with our own guitars, cabs, pedals... I mean, sure the amp sound won't be fully equal (though I must say I found no difference on that SLO video comparison), but it will get pretty damn close to the real thing and it pays credits/tribute to the original brands, which that cannot be said about AXE or Kemper or even Helix who are "stealing" an amp's identity by the medium of the users. If, in the end one doesn't like the Marshal preamp module and is looking for a Diezel one, I'm sure someone would be willing to trade. If they build a comunity around these, it's a winner bet.

Before I got the my Triaxis I was exploring several options on going tube and rack and these modular stuff from Bogner and then Randall (or was it the other way?) caught my attention, as well as 2 midi rack preamps from Engl that were available at the time (not anymore). The Triaxis, won due to being 1 rack unit... and because it sounded pretty damn well. I'm a small guy, lugging heavy stuff around is not for me.


----------



## mnemonic

When the MTS gear was more popular there was a pretty good sized community that would buy / sell / trade / mod the modules, though it looks like it’s shrank a lot if you look at the MTS forum.

It would be cool to see that come back for synergy.



odibrom said:


> it pays credits/tribute to the original brands, which that cannot be said about AXE or Kemper or even Helix who are "stealing" an amp's identity by the medium of the users



For what it’s worth, there are some axe FX models that are ‘official’ or ‘allowed’ by the amp companies, which is why they use the real amp name rather than a fake name. Off the top of my head, the Friedman, Carol-Ann, and Fryette models all use the actual manufacturer name and they assisted cliff in modelling them in the axe FX.

Likewise synergy has ‘unlicenced’ modules, basically anything that doesn’t have another manufacturers name on it (the fender, dumble, and Marshall modules).


----------



## 4Eyes

the concept is cool, especially collaboration with designers of the amps to recreate sonic characteristics of the amps being modelled with the module, but.... and that's just me... I kind of miss the point of having zillion of options and sounds available, but I have this feeling about digital modellers as well.. just give me good clean, crunch, lead sounds and with TS in front you're able to cover 99% of needs of any guitar player. 

I had an opportunity to test huge 12 module rack full of various salvation mods modules and it didn't do anything with me. I'd pick two or three sounds, all of them came nowhere near to the real thing when it came to amp - whether it was, twin, recto or 5150 (and we had some amps on hand that modules were trying replicate). I was much happier with any sounds we were able to dial in on the amps, than with the sounds I was getting from this huge, 12 module behemoth. even twin with drives was more enjoyable than module thingy.


----------



## c7spheres

4Eyes said:


> the concept is cool, especially collaboration with designers of the amps to recreate sonic characteristics of the amps being modelled with the module, but.... and that's just me... I kind of miss the point of having zillion of options and sounds available, but I have this feeling about digital modellers as well.. just give me good clean, crunch, lead sounds and with TS in front you're able to cover 99% of needs of any guitar player.
> 
> I had an opportunity to test huge 12 module rack full of various salvation mods modules and it didn't do anything with me. I'd pick two or three sounds, all of them came nowhere near to the real thing when it came to amp - whether it was, twin, recto or 5150 (and we had some amps on hand that modules were trying replicate). I was much happier with any sounds we were able to dial in on the amps, than with the sounds I was getting from this huge, 12 module behemoth. even twin with drives was more enjoyable than module thingy.


 I 'm not sure but I think the Synergy stuff is supposed to be different in the way the dock is made, to make it more authentic or something (oh no, I'm sounding like a modeler guy now : ) If they had more modules I was interested in I'd love to try it out and then I'd probably eventually settle on a few modules once I found what I liked best. I want a Mesa, an Orange, a Vox, a Fender, a Marshall etc. Right now I'm not seeing a Mesa or Orange module yet. What would be even better is if they made their own module that was even better to my ears than any of those. I think another idea that's being overlooked is that they could come up with a way to incorporate those slots into effects modules too. Put a little spring reverb or somthing in there too. That's be neat.


----------



## 4Eyes

c7spheres said:


> I 'm not sure but I think the Synergy stuff is supposed to be different in the way the dock is made, to make it more authentic or something


old idea, same technology, "different" marketing - tube amp, more authentic than tube amp itself  I just miss the point of having so many "different" tones, that all in the end sound the same. (I talk like an old man...haha) - that's all I wanted to say.

another thing that I "din't" like about this whole module idea was that it's trying to sell you amp's sound in a module with 2 preamp tubes, but every amp maker, even module makers, know that when it comes to "mojo" of the tube amp it's far more than just 4 stages in the preamp. I know they're trying to overcome some thing with knowing that in most cases first stage is basically the same in most of the amps, or the power amp design doesn't change that much across the whole range of modern amps. but lots of people want "impossible" things like fender/vox cleans, plexi/800 crunch and modern higain - all three sounds come from very different amp designs that heavily rely on different power amp design...and all of the sudden whole module idea is falling apart like house of cards, because nobody will use three different power amps to emulate these sounds accurately, which is what Synergy is now promising.

I'm not saying it won't sound good, but if you want some specific amp sound, just get the amp...


----------



## op1e

I achieved what you say can't really be done with an rm100 with KT88/el34. Most modern high gainers are all preamp. As for 2 preamp tubes, the 3rd one is in the amp (1st stage). Plus that's the reason they made the RT2/50 power amp that switches sides between 6L6 and el34 or whatever flavor is in either side. Scoff all you want, but this is a good way to have all the flavors you want. Other than that it's a rack full of preamps. Even if the modules are 80% close it's worth it and feels and cuts better than modelling.


----------



## cardinal

Everything is a compromise. Modelers don't nail it 100%, there's a warm or grunt or feel thing that's often missing. But they can still sound good!

A power amp that switches tube types is neat, but it can't switch plate voltages and transformer size and negative feedback and bias and phase inverter design etc etc. But who cares if it sounds good!

People get caught up on whether something sounds just like a Plexi or a Twin or whatever. But I doubt anyone could reliably distinguish the "real" amp from a nice recording of either a modeler or an MTS module. They can all be made to sound great. Just use what's fun for you. 

The Synergy tech with the switchable V1 cathode bypass stuff is very very cool. It wouldn't surprise me at all if someone were working on a power amp that could have similar switching functions. It just might be absurdly expensive and heavy. But I'd love to see it done!


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I actually just found out Opeth switched to Synergy a couple of weeks ago. Both are using a Friedman Dirty Shirley and Soldano SLOmodules, with the Synergy power amp.


----------



## Tthch

laxu said:


> Everything that the Synergy modules hook into is severely overpriced. The SYN30 and SYN50 are literally the most expensive mono guitar poweramps on the market. The modules themselves are reasonably priced.
> 
> I don't believe in the module swapping either. You will most likely buy a few, then settle on a couple of them and never change them because it's a chore. It's one of those ideas that works great when you are buying the thing where you can choose your favorite bits trying each at the store and take those home.


It's not power amp. It's tube guitar amp with one clean channel, and slot for two more


----------



## c7spheres

- I keep seeing pictures of the Fryette modules but they never seem to actually come out, for like years now it seems. Are these ever gonna be released?
- Also, I doubt it would ever happen but wouldn't it be cool to have a couple different Mesa modules of a Mk series with a little graphic EQ like the Fryette one has? And a Recto module too. Who care's if they sound excactly like them as long as they get a kick ass Boogie-esque type tone.
- That's how I'm expecting all these modules to sound; not exact but similar and good sounding. Hey, it's ok to dream. Right : )


----------



## cwhitey2

c7spheres said:


> - I keep seeing pictures of the Fryette modules but they never seem to actually come out, for like years now it seems. Are these ever gonna be released?
> - Also, I doubt it would ever happen but wouldn't it be cool to have a couple different Mesa modules of a Mk series with a little graphic EQ like the Fryette one has? And a Recto module too. Who care's if they sound excactly like them as long as they get a kick ass Boogie-esque type tone.
> - That's how I'm expecting all these modules to sound; not exact but similar and good sounding. Hey, it's ok to dream. Right : )


I have been wondering about the Fryette modules as well. I was very interested when I found out about them....well it's taken them so long to come out I ended up just buying another Fryette amp, because at the end of the day the Synergy would probably cost more money then what I paid.


----------



## ms17a

cwhitey2 said:


> I have been wondering about the Fryette modules as well. I was very interested when I found out about them....well it's taken them so long to come out I ended up just buying another Fryette amp, because at the end of the day the Synergy would probably cost more money then what I paid.



From Information available on youtube after this winter NAMM show, the release schedule seems to be:

Q2/2020: Vai Module, Bogner Ecstacy and Überschall, Engl Powerball
2nd half of 2020: Fryette Deliverance und Pittbull
In Preparation: Diezel Herbert

These informations were given by Peter Arends (Synergy "chief developer") in different youtube-vids. He also added that there are talks ongoing about further cooperations with other companies, but he also stated that MESA is not willing to take part.

Cheers,

Mark


----------



## cwhitey2

ms17a said:


> From Information available on youtube after this winter NAMM show, the release schedule seems to be:
> 
> Q2/2020: Vai Module, Bogner Ecstacy and Überschall, Engl Powerball
> 2nd half of 2020: Fryette Deliverance und Pittbull
> In Preparation: Diezel Herbert
> 
> These informations were given by Peter Arends (Synergy "chief developer") in different youtube-vids. He also added that there are talks ongoing about further cooperations with other companies, but he also stated that MESA is not willing to take part.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Mark


My point is they announced these like 2 years ago or at least feels like 2 years.

Don't announce it and not release it within a reasonable time frame


----------



## ms17a

cwhitey2 said:


> My point is they announced these like 2 years ago or at least feels like 2 years.
> 
> Don't announce it and not release it within a reasonable time frame



You are right. Statiscally they have shown the first module prototypes at NAMM shows about two years before the final release. Actually it seems that the Bogners and the Engl Powerball will be released definetely in Q2/2020 since they already have been delivered to several youtubers. The vids are in the pipeline.

The release of the Fryettes may be a bit more unsure. My estimation for a worst case: Beginning of next year. Then the two years theory would have made a point ...


----------



## ms17a

ms17a said:


> You are right. Statiscally they have shown the first module prototypes at NAMM shows about two years before the final release. Actually it seems that the Bogners and the Engl Powerball will be released definetely in Q2/2020 since they already have been delivered to several youtubers. The vids are in the pipeline.
> 
> The release of the Fryettes may be a bit more unsure. My estimation for a worst case: Beginning of next year. Then the two years theory would have made a point ...



And the VAI module has been released yesterday and is already available at some shops...


----------



## cwhitey2

ms17a said:


> And the VAI module has been released yesterday and is already available at some shops...


Maybe there is behind the scenes legal BS we don't know about that's causing the hold up.


----------



## Merrekof

I'm a fan of rack stuff and I can really see myself using a 2 channel rack module thing. But damn it's expensive! 890€ for the base module, the 2 channel rack and another 400 for each individual module. Engl still sells rack preamps for a lot less..


----------



## cwhitey2

Merrekof said:


> I'm a fan of rack stuff and I can really see myself using a 2 channel rack module thing. But damn it's expensive! 890€ for the base module, the 2 channel rack and another 400 for each individual module. Engl still sells rack preamps for a lot less..


Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel about it now.


----------



## c7spheres

ms17a said:


> From Information available on youtube after this winter NAMM show, the release schedule seems to be:
> 
> Q2/2020: Vai Module, Bogner Ecstacy and Überschall, Engl Powerball
> 2nd half of 2020: Fryette Deliverance und Pittbull
> In Preparation: Diezel Herbert
> 
> These informations were given by Peter Arends (Synergy "chief developer") in different youtube-vids. He also added that there are talks ongoing about further cooperations with other companies, but he also stated that MESA is not willing to take part.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Mark


 That's good news. Maybe they will do their own Mesa knockoff version someday like they did with some others. That would still be nice.


----------



## op1e

Considering a bunch of us have been following and waiting for MTS to resurrect as SYNERGY from 2010-2016 or later, the wait on the Fryette mods is laughable. Since my 2nd rm100 has now blown up for no good reason, I'm not recommending those anymore. Get the rm50, there's not so many circuit boards stacked on top one another to arc out and zap frazzle. I'm out the game. Gonna pay off my Kartakou and get a GE300 for models/fx to run with it. Rack bag, small board, 2x12 and go.


----------



## wakjob

That VAI module sounds like it's made for lead work!

And, *IF* Mesa does a decent 'Mark' type module, AND Fryette does get a good one out, I'm all in on this Synergy stuff.


----------



## op1e

He wants participation from the manufacturers and I don't ever see Peavey or Mesa playing ball. Maybe EVH if we're lucky.


----------



## op1e

Just noticed this..


----------



## c7spheres

op1e said:


> Just noticed this..



I like how nasty it gets when he starts doing the Rhythm stuff and pushing it to do stuff it's not meant for really. Nice and nasty.


----------



## Bentaycanada

I’m just waiting for the Bogner and Fryette modules to be released and I’ll pick up a SYN-1 again.


----------



## Merrekof

c7spheres said:


> I like how nasty it gets when he starts doing the Rhythm stuff and pushing it to do stuff it's not meant for really. Nice and nasty.


John Browne makes a P90 equipped PRS guitar sound good for metal, so I can't imagine this sounding bad either...


----------



## jco5055

Hey guys,

I just picked up a Fryette LXII power amp, and am deciding between the Axe FX 3 and synergy. Anyone with opinions on both? I feel like as mentioned Axe is the better deal but synergy does have the manufacturers involved as well as the analog aspect for the purists, as well as not going down the tweakers rabbit hole.


----------



## odibrom

I think that in the long run, the Synergy stuff wins big time. One will eventually get tired of the digital interface of this and that and selling an OLD piece of digital gear is like selling the previous day's newspaper, obsolete. Analogue Pre-amps and amplifiers age differently when they have a good build quality, which I believe it's the case for Synergy.

The setup may be a bit expensive at start, but then, changing amp tones is just a fancy pedal away, so... and re-selling a pre-amp module should be fairly easy. The brand is building momentum and more so now with the Vai module...

I just think they could invest also in MIDI control for EQ, GAIN, VOLUME, Module channel and Preset Memory, preferably with _Continuous Control_ response. That would be super great...


----------



## c7spheres

odibrom said:


> I think that in the long run, the Synergy stuff wins big time. One will eventually get tired of the digital interface of this and that and selling an OLD piece of digital gear is like selling the previous day's newspaper, obsolete. Analogue Pre-amps and amplifiers age differently when they have a good build quality, which I believe it's the case for Synergy.
> 
> The setup may be a bit expensive at start, but then, changing amp tones is just a fancy pedal away, so... and re-selling a pre-amp module should be fairly easy. The brand is building momentum and more so now with the Vai module...
> 
> I just think they could invest also in MIDI control for EQ, GAIN, VOLUME, Module channel and Preset Memory, preferably with _Continuous Control_ response. That would be super great...



- Midi would be incredible for these on the Gain or volume alone.
Did you see the new Opeth Synergy Rig? Looks great. Looks liek AxeFx no longer covers all the bases for them. They use the Synergy power amp too.
- The thing to keep in mind with the Synergy is that the Amp is also part of the system if you want to take full advantage of it. it' snot just an amp it has stuff going on in there that changes up stuff based on that little switch on the back of some of the modules.


----------



## odibrom

As far as the power amp goes, I'm thinking in the SYN5050, it is independent from the preamps, it has no sound options only accesdible with the Synergy modules, so that switch sound more like a voicing...?


----------



## c7spheres

odibrom said:


> As far as the power amp goes, I'm thinking in the SYN5050, it is independent from the preamps, it has no sound options only accesdible with the Synergy modules, so that switch sound more like a voicing...?


 Apparently I was confused about the switch. The switch on the back of the module is a channel select option so you can select which of the one channels you get to use if you're using the older Egnater and Randall MTS units.
- The Syn5050 is still part of the entire system though because when a module is inserted it will automatically rebias the amp based on the type so you can have a Fender vs Marshall vs Modern tube power amp bias. This is why it's special over the LX-ii being used with Synergy stuff because this amp will change it's bias settings based on which module is being used to make it more like the real thing. I don't think the LX-II does that, but it does have a flat type mode switch for when usig modelling units.


----------



## crankyrayhanky

^ I'm pretty sure this wrong. The syn 50 50 is just a stereo tube power amp that goes with any system;it's not adjusting bias- that happens in the syn 1 or syn 2 preamp chassis


----------



## jco5055

c7spheres said:


> Apparently I was confused about the switch. The switch on the back of the module is a channel select option so you can select which of the one channels you get to use if you're using the older Egnater and Randall MTS units.
> - The Syn5050 is still part of the entire system though because when a module is inserted it will automatically rebias the amp based on the type so you can have a Fender vs Marshall vs Modern tube power amp bias. This is why it's special over the LX-ii being used with Synergy stuff because this amp will change it's bias settings based on which module is being used to make it more like the real thing. I don't think the LX-II does that, but it does have a flat type mode switch for when usig modelling units.



I thought the cathode switch on each module did that, as opposed to the Poweramp?


----------



## c7spheres

crankyrayhanky said:


> ^ I'm pretty sure this wrong. The syn 50 50 is just a stereo tube power amp that goes with any system;it's not adjusting bias- that happens in the syn 1 or syn 2 preamp chassis





jco5055 said:


> I thought the cathode switch on each module did that, as opposed to the Poweramp?



Yeah, I'm wrong and confused apparently. The Syn-30 and Syn-50 talk about doing that, not the Syn50. From the Synergy website: *AUTO SENSING*
The SYN30 features a patent pending technology that “senses” which preamp modules are being installed into it. Once a module is detected, the SYN30 adjusts the cathode biasing circuitry on the built in 12AX7 tube, to best match the original amplifier channel design on which it’s based

At first I think it's talking about the power section, beause when I think biasing I don't assume preamp tubes. But then the Syn50 makes no mention of it, but then again the Syn1 and SYn2 make no mention of it either. Only the Syn-30 and 50 heads and the combo mention it. So the way I read it seems they're talking about the 12ax7 in the power amp section of the amp because why else would it need ot sense anything at all if it all just in the module anyways? Interesting because no mention on any of the other products. 

- The swtich I'm fairly sure is for the selection of the channel when putting inot the older chassis by Egnater and Randall.


----------



## jco5055

c7spheres said:


> Yeah, I'm wrong and confused apparently. The Syn-30 and Syn-50 talk about doing that, not the Syn50. From the Synergy website: *AUTO SENSING*
> The SYN30 features a patent pending technology that “senses” which preamp modules are being installed into it. Once a module is detected, the SYN30 adjusts the cathode biasing circuitry on the built in 12AX7 tube, to best match the original amplifier channel design on which it’s based
> 
> At first I think it's talking about the power section, beause when I think biasing I don't assume preamp tubes. But then the Syn50 makes no mention of it, but then again the Syn1 and SYn2 make no mention of it either. Only the Syn-30 and 50 heads and the combo mention it. So the way I read it seems they're talking about the 12ax7 in the power amp section of the amp because why else would it need ot sense anything at all if it all just in the module anyways? Interesting because no mention on any of the other products.
> 
> - The swtich I'm fairly sure is for the selection of the channel when putting inot the older chassis by Egnater and Randall.



Hmm well if you look on the site for each Module specifically they mention "

CATHODE SELECT SWITCH:
The VH4 modules features a three position switch allows you to configure the input tube bass response to match the original circuit of the selected module. This will affect the feel and tightness. Each amp designer has a specific combination of components that makes up their input tube circuit. We have selected the three most popular combinations which you can access with this switch. The modules will come preset to Peter Diezel's preferred setting which for the VH4 module is position 2 (2.7K resistor and .68uf capacitor)."

So sounds like there is a switch on the actual modules.


----------



## c7spheres

jco5055 said:


> Hmm well if you look on the site for each Module specifically they mention "
> 
> CATHODE SELECT SWITCH:
> The VH4 modules features a three position switch allows you to configure the input tube bass response to match the original circuit of the selected module. This will affect the feel and tightness. Each amp designer has a specific combination of components that makes up their input tube circuit. We have selected the three most popular combinations which you can access with this switch. The modules will come preset to Peter Diezel's preferred setting which for the VH4 module is position 2 (2.7K resistor and .68uf capacitor)."
> 
> So sounds like there is a switch on the actual modules.


 Ok. I figured it all out.
- The Syn50 does not have auto sensing. It's a seperate power amp
- The 3 way switch on the back of some modules is effectively a voicing switch.
- The Autosensing tech they patented is only on the Syn30 and Sty50 heads and combo at this time which sense automatically and changes up the power amp to suit.
Check out this Sweetwater vid starting around 3:25. He talks aboutit having automatic sensing.


- On modules with multiple channels Synergy says there isan additional switch to choose which channel you can use for backward compatibility with the Randall module chassis
- With older Egnater chassis both channels will still work as normal!
- With older modules in a Synergy unit those will work as normal too! Forward compatible.


- What this means is that curerntly to get the full Syngery experience with no comprimising then you want a Synergy Head or combo until something else compatible with the auto sensing tech comes around.
Here's a link to the grail forum that takes a quote from the Synergy Facebook page from 09-11-2017. 

http://mtsforum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?t=22040&sid=17e71b06095610b85299f68dad4df7f7


- HOpefully I didn't get somethign else wrong, but what do you expect for free customer service?!: )


----------



## laxu

c7spheres said:


> Yeah, I'm wrong and confused apparently. The Syn-30 and Syn-50 talk about doing that, not the Syn50. From the Synergy website: *AUTO SENSING*
> The SYN30 features a patent pending technology that “senses” which preamp modules are being installed into it. Once a module is detected, the SYN30 adjusts the cathode biasing circuitry on the built in 12AX7 tube, to best match the original amplifier channel design on which it’s based
> 
> At first I think it's talking about the power section, beause when I think biasing I don't assume preamp tubes. But then the Syn50 makes no mention of it, but then again the Syn1 and SYn2 make no mention of it either. Only the Syn-30 and 50 heads and the combo mention it. So the way I read it seems they're talking about the 12ax7 in the power amp section of the amp because why else would it need ot sense anything at all if it all just in the module anyways? Interesting because no mention on any of the other products.



Preamp tubes are pretty much always cathode biased so you don't need to change anything to swap them. I assume that they do mean that maybe the phase inverter biasing of the SYN30/50 poweramp is adjusted to make it feel different but I don't know how exactly this works. The separate poweramp can't do this since there is no signal sent to tell it to do this as the only connection is audio.


----------



## laxu

odibrom said:


> I think that in the long run, the Synergy stuff wins big time. One will eventually get tired of the digital interface of this and that and selling an OLD piece of digital gear is like selling the previous day's newspaper, obsolete. Analogue Pre-amps and amplifiers age differently when they have a good build quality, which I believe it's the case for Synergy.



This same concept has been tried before by Egnater and then as a bit cheaper version by Randall. Everyone seems to agree that it is cool but they never seem to quite prevail. Whether that is due to availability, price or guitarist traditionalism I don't know.

Digital is starting to be pretty mature as a tech so there is less and less need to buy the latest and greatest model and the most significant improvements are on the UI side. This is an area where digital wins to a significant degree as changing your whole rig is just one button press away rather than needing to swap modules around based on what you need.

To me the Synergy system is most useful as a "make your own amp" type setup where in a store you would try all the modules, pick the ones you like best and walk out with those as a full amp. There is less appeal in owning a pile of modules when eventually you will be constantly swapping them in and out since the components for installing the modules are so expensive so you are not so likely to buy another SYN1/2/30/50 for that unless you really, really love the Synergy system.

I don't know about you but I am lazy enough that digging up the module and swapping it would be enough of a chore to just avoid doing it.


----------



## USMarine75

OliOliver said:


> Can't speak for OP, but I'm considering the Synergy route because for £1600 I can get a SYN30 and an SLO module, whereas a Soldano almost never pops up used here, and when it does it's... Expensive. Same with a Diezel. Never seen a VH4 for less than £1800 on the used market.
> 
> I mean... Why wouldn't you want to when it sounds like this (2:44):




Fwiw you can get those same SLO tones in the Soldano SP77 which usually pops up around $500 and is a 10/10 preamp.

There’s also the SLO preamp pedal by Koch that is supposed to nail the lead channel but I don’t own that one and can’t vouch for sure.

Just mentioning for those that see the Synergy as the cheaper option (XR88 and Bogner Fish are $3-4K).


----------



## cardinal

The cathode bias thing I think was covered earlier in the thread. Its not in the power amp. It's the V1 gain stage. 

The preamp V1 gain stage is not in the module itself: it's in the dock/Syn amp head. This is similar to how all of these modular things have been (Randall, Egnator, etc.). That's a bit of a problem because V1 is obviously an important gain stage and the cathode bias of a traditional "Fender" is different than where Marshall ended up. 

Synergy's big innovation was to have the dock and amp systems use three different V1 cathode bias values and automatically switch them to match the type of module in use.


----------



## Merrekof

laxu said:


> This same concept has been tried before by Egnater and then as a bit cheaper version by Randall. Everyone seems to agree that it is cool but they never seem to quite prevail. Whether that is due to availability, price or guitarist traditionalism I don't know.
> 
> Digital is starting to be pretty mature as a tech so there is less and less need to buy the latest and greatest model and the most significant improvements are on the UI side. This is an area where digital wins to a significant degree as changing your whole rig is just one button press away rather than needing to swap modules around based on what you need.
> 
> To me the Synergy system is most useful as a "make your own amp" type setup where in a store you would try all the modules, pick the ones you like best and walk out with those as a full amp. There is less appeal in owning a pile of modules when eventually you will be constantly swapping them in and out since the components for installing the modules are so expensive so you are not so likely to buy another SYN1/2/30/50 for that unless you really, really love the Synergy system.
> 
> I don't know about you but I am lazy enough that digging up the module and swapping it would be enough of a chore to just avoid doing it.


I feel the same way. I really love the idea but it is just too expensive compared to digital units. Knowing myself, I'd buy one module and never bother with the other modules. 

If the modules themselves would cost, idk, 100€, then it would get very interesting. The rack system with 2 modules costs a lot more than a Helix rack.


----------



## laxu

Merrekof said:


> I feel the same way. I really love the idea but it is just too expensive compared to digital units. Knowing myself, I'd buy one module and never bother with the other modules.
> 
> If the modules themselves would cost, idk, 100€, then it would get very interesting. The rack system with 2 modules costs a lot more than a Helix rack.



The modules themselves are fairly priced at 399 euros. I mean there are plenty of pedals that cost almost as much. Like I said on the first page, it's the poweramps and module connectors that are expensive. SYN50 + 2 modules puts you in the price bracket of a lot of great amps.


----------



## SSK0909

I can't help but wonder. Will a Synergy setup not be les accurate to the actual amps, compared to modellers?

Modellers also emulate/profile the power section of an amp. Whereas the Synergy system can only ever truly replicate the preamp section into a netural sounding poweramp?

Wonder how that will affect the autenticity of tones from more master volume dependant amps like old Marshalls?

Just a curiosity question.


----------



## cardinal

The Synergy preamp system looks impressive to me. With the ability to select between the three most typical V1 values (I think they when with warm and fat Fender, bright and tight Marshall, and the Soldano cold-clipper), the preamp amp modules would appear to be pretty good recreations of what they should be (assuming the original is a master volume circuit).

The only real reason I've held off is that I'm not terribly impressed with any modern power amps. I wish Fryette had made the ClassicXXX more widely available, but I guess there's not a large market for a boat-anchor power amp like that.


----------



## laxu

SSK0909 said:


> I can't help but wonder. Will a Synergy setup not be les accurate to the actual amps, compared to modellers?
> 
> Modellers also emulate/profile the power section of an amp. Whereas the Synergy system can only ever truly replicate the preamp section into a netural sounding poweramp?
> 
> Wonder how that will affect the autenticity of tones from more master volume dependant amps like old Marshalls?
> 
> Just a curiosity question.



I don't think it will match the real amp. It's just a huge pile of components that influence that from transformers to powertubes to the actual poweramp circuit and so on. If I run the Helix preamps into any of my amps' poweramps, they take on the feel of the poweramp used for better or worse. The sound itself can be perfectly good and if you prefer that there is no problem, but if you want "authentic" then the Synergy setup is not going to go all the way.

From what I've read from people who have the Synergy, either they sound like the real amp at a very specific setting or they don't. Especially the SYN1 and SYN2 will depend heavily on the poweramp used. But sometimes compromises are fine, I mean I use a Bogner that has Fender style clean and Marshall style overdrive with a 4x6V6 powersection and it sounds great on both channels. Good tone is really what we should care about rather than what approach takes you there.


----------



## odibrom

laxu said:


> This same concept has been tried before by Egnater and then as a bit cheaper version by Randall. Everyone seems to agree that it is cool but they never seem to quite prevail. Whether that is due to availability, price or guitarist traditionalism I don't know.



Yes, I've been following the system from mid 2000s and early 2010s. Regarding it not being more mais stream, I think it was due to either availability and price AND, mostly the real reason, the lack of media around the product. Synergy is on the mouth of most youtubers, so it is getting momentum for sure.

As all guitar related products, these are not for everyone, but for those who are looking for an analogue tube sound at a "fair" price and the ability to taste different amp styles without having to sell a kidney. Yes, a full setup of 2 modules and power amp is quite expensive, but where can one have a Soldano and a Diezel together for less than 5k price tag? Are they TRUE Soldano and Diezel amps? In feel, I believe they will be.

So my argument is that, the Synergy system is a well thought product with improved experience over its predecessors, which is what makes it different, specially on the marketing front. I'm served with a Mesa Boogie Triaxis, which gives me ALL I need, but if I were in the market for an analogue amp, I'd certainly dive into this system. The thing is I appreciate too much the MIDI Continuous Control over Gain, EQ, Drive and Volume that the Triaxis provides... and obviously its tone. IF Synergy enters this domain (which I doubt they will in the foreseeable future), I'd certainly be looking at them. The ability to choose the preamp sound one likes best is a no compromising deal for any one (I believe) and if after a small time, there's a mood change, the replacement module wouldn't cost a leg as when changes an amp rig will... and the community of these modules will grow as to everybody will be swapping out modules in trades, so going from a Slo to a Friedman will be "free"... I believe this tech and product will grow, how fast, is depending on marketing and price / availability.


----------



## laxu

odibrom said:


> As all guitar related products, these are not for everyone, but for those who are looking for an analogue tube sound at a "fair" price and the ability to taste different amp styles without having to sell a kidney. Yes, a full setup of 2 modules and power amp is quite expensive, but where can one have a Soldano and a Diezel together for less than 5k price tag? Are they TRUE Soldano and Diezel amps? In feel, I believe they will be.



Only report I have read from someone in my country specifically regarding the Diezel module in a SYN1 was that it did not sound or feel the same as a real VH4. With the right poweramp it would surely get closer but that means compromises if the other sound you want is a Vox AC30 which responds in a whole different manner. If you mainly care about high gain tones then I'm sure a reasonably tight, big transformer, high power poweramp will get you to good places.


----------



## cardinal

laxu said:


> Only report I have read from someone in my country specifically regarding the Diezel module in a SYN1 was that it did not sound or feel the same as a real VH4. With the right poweramp it would surely get closer but that means compromises if the other sound you want is a Vox AC30 which responds in a whole different manner. If you mainly care about high gain tones then I'm sure a reasonably tight, big transformer, high power poweramp will get you to good places.



The VH4 is going to be tricky because that is a very unique amp. The feel of it, in particular, could almost be described as bizarre. I love the amp (I think I've owned three...), but it sounds and feels so vastly different from the "standard" Fender-based and Marshall-based amps that it doesn't surprise me that the Synergy stuff wouldn't exactly capture it. I haven't seen a VH4 schematic, but I imagine that the preamp and power amp values are absolutely wild to get the results that it gives.


----------



## Shask

laxu said:


> This same concept has been tried before by Egnater and then as a bit cheaper version by Randall. Everyone seems to agree that it is cool but they never seem to quite prevail. Whether that is due to availability, price or guitarist traditionalism I don't know.
> 
> Digital is starting to be pretty mature as a tech so there is less and less need to buy the latest and greatest model and the most significant improvements are on the UI side. This is an area where digital wins to a significant degree as changing your whole rig is just one button press away rather than needing to swap modules around based on what you need.
> 
> To me the Synergy system is most useful as a "make your own amp" type setup where in a store you would try all the modules, pick the ones you like best and walk out with those as a full amp. There is less appeal in owning a pile of modules when eventually you will be constantly swapping them in and out since the components for installing the modules are so expensive so you are not so likely to buy another SYN1/2/30/50 for that unless you really, really love the Synergy system.
> 
> I don't know about you but I am lazy enough that digging up the module and swapping it would be enough of a chore to just avoid doing it.


I think it is just too expensive and cumbersome for most people. It does look cool, but most people are just not willing to spend. I would also argue that most people do not need that much versatility in gain tones. The majority of people can get by on 2-3 clean/gain tones. Most versatility that people use in modelers and switching systems is more about signal paths and effects than it is gain tones.


----------



## jco5055

laxu said:


> This same concept has been tried before by Egnater and then as a bit cheaper version by Randall. Everyone seems to agree that it is cool but they never seem to quite prevail. Whether that is due to availability, price or guitarist traditionalism I don't know.
> 
> Digital is starting to be pretty mature as a tech so there is less and less need to buy the latest and greatest model and the most significant improvements are on the UI side. This is an area where digital wins to a significant degree as changing your whole rig is just one button press away rather than needing to swap modules around based on what you need.
> 
> To me the Synergy system is most useful as a "make your own amp" type setup where in a store you would try all the modules, pick the ones you like best and walk out with those as a full amp. There is less appeal in owning a pile of modules when eventually you will be constantly swapping them in and out since the components for installing the modules are so expensive so you are not so likely to buy another SYN1/2/30/50 for that unless you really, really love the Synergy system.
> 
> I don't know about you but I am lazy enough that digging up the module and swapping it would be enough of a chore to just avoid doing it.



Yeah I mentioned this on the Synergy facebook group (and even emailed Sweetwater about it lol) asking if anyone would be interested in some kind of "rental" program, like maybe for idk maybe even the full price of the module you can have someone send you a module, you try it for a week, then when you send it back they return the money barring like $20 or something (so if the renter ran off with the module they'd have enough $$ to buy a new one, but assuming everything works as intended they make a slight profit to incentivize the lending), as I'm the kind of guy who would want to try ALL of the modules and then keep whichever one is my favorite clean sound, hi gain lead sound etc etc.

Otherwise it's just so expensive and time consuming to just buy a few at a time and flip the ones you don't like/want. Maybe when the quarantine is over my local guitar center will get them to try, but they didn't have them before so I'm not that hopeful.


----------



## jco5055

Also as mentioned, I understand Synergy may not be a perfect copy of the amps because of the power amp issue, but I mean when listening to this comparison for example, I'd say Synergy sounds the best regardless of how accurate it is to the real thing.


----------



## lewis

jco5055 said:


> Also as mentioned, I understand Synergy may not be a perfect copy of the amps because of the power amp issue, but I mean when listening to this comparison for example, I'd say Synergy sounds the best regardless of how accurate it is to the real thing.



because they are the real thing lol

the actual companies are making them so


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## jco5055

lewis said:


> because they are the real thing lol
> 
> the actual companies are making them so



But if you factor in the Power amp distortion/replication one could argue the digital versions may be more "accurate".


----------



## KnightBrolaire

jco5055 said:


> Also as mentioned, I understand Synergy may not be a perfect copy of the amps because of the power amp issue, but I mean when listening to this comparison for example, I'd say Synergy sounds the best regardless of how accurate it is to the real thing.



jesus the synergy destroyed the kemper and helix in this instance.


----------



## lewis

KnightBrolaire said:


> jesus the synergy destroyed the kemper and helix in this instance.


im starting to feel like everything is overrated ahah.
You can make anything shit sound good, and anything good sound shit.

the novelty of my Kemper has worn off (havent used it in months)


----------



## cardinal

KnightBrolaire said:


> jesus the synergy destroyed the kemper and helix in this instance.



SRLY. I'm impressed. I totally understand that I'm sure if you fiddle with all the Helix settings and Kemper profiles, you could get something very different from those clips.

But the Synergy stuff has no menus and no gigantic profile exchange to search through. You just point the knobs. And that sounded pretty darn good.


----------



## crankyrayhanky

I would never want to ship a module around to earn $20.The numbers just don't work- to make it worthwhile, it would be too costly for the person renting IMO


----------



## jco5055

crankyrayhanky said:


> I would never want to ship a module around to earn $20.The numbers just don't work- to make it worthwhile, it would be too costly for the person renting IMO



maybe then it would need to be $100 or so? Idk, I just figure it's the best solution I can think of for people to try out the modules unless they have a store that has them.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Those Kemper profiles sounded baaaaaad.  The Synergy and Helix were much, much better.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Those Kemper profiles sounded baaaaaad.  The Synergy and Helix were much, much better.


eh the helix clips weren't much better than the kemper profiles imo. The Synergy clips managed to retain the high end and general vibes of the amps. I don't think the kemper or helix did a good job of capturing that high end/detail.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

KnightBrolaire said:


> eh the helix clips weren't much better than the kemper imo. The Synergy clips managed to retain the high end and general vibes of the amps. I don't think the kemper or helix did a good job of capturing that high end/detail.



The Helix ones could at least work in a mix. Those Kemper ones sounded useless. Badly scooped and no cut. Kempers also suffer if you try to tweak the profile too much.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> The Helix ones could at least work in a mix. Those Kemper ones sounded useless. Badly scooped and no cut. Kempers also suffer if you try to tweak the profile too much.


yeah the kemper is only good if you don't try and adjust eq/gain settings (or barely adjust em) . I owned one for years and that was part of why I got rid of it.


----------



## cardinal

I guess I should just try some of these to see how they are. On paper, I just have trouble with the power amp differences. For example, the AC30 famously has no negative feedback in the power amp, which is quite different from most Marshall and Fender designs. And the Uberschall has a unique "presence" circuit and unusual negative feed back design as well. 

But those are probably the two modules I'm most interested in: amps that I kinda like but not enough to actually buy an AC30 or Uberschall. Toss in an 800 module and to be able to switch around between them and carry it all in one hand could be great, but I don't know if one power amp is really going to deliver for that.


----------



## Shask

cardinal said:


> I guess I should just try some of these to see how they are. On paper, I just have trouble with the power amp differences. For example, the AC30 famously has no negative feedback in the power amp, which is quite different from most Marshall and Fender designs. And the Uberschall has a unique "presence" circuit and unusual negative feed back design as well.
> 
> But those are probably the two modules I'm most interested in: amps that I kinda like but not enough to actually buy an AC30 or Uberschall. Toss in an 800 module and to be able to switch around between them and carry it all in one hand could be great, but I don't know if one power amp is really going to deliver for that.


That is usually one issue of these systems. If you use the same poweramp, many preamps tend to start sounding, and feeling, the same. People tend to downplay how much the poweramp effects the sound and feel of amps. It took me many years to understand that also, after using different rack preamps through the years.


----------



## diagrammatiks

cardinal said:


> I guess I should just try some of these to see how they are. On paper, I just have trouble with the power amp differences. For example, the AC30 famously has no negative feedback in the power amp, which is quite different from most Marshall and Fender designs. And the Uberschall has a unique "presence" circuit and unusual negative feed back design as well.
> 
> But those are probably the two modules I'm most interested in: amps that I kinda like but not enough to actually buy an AC30 or Uberschall. Toss in an 800 module and to be able to switch around between them and carry it all in one hand could be great, but I don't know if one power amp is really going to deliver for that.



The power amp definitely makes a difference. And...if you're going for something like the ac30 cranked or something like that these probably won't sound anywhere close. 

That being said they should be able to do unique presence circuits or negative feedback changes in the power amp themselves. That's not a big deal actually. There's only so many ways you can do that. 

But something like an ac30 that requires cathode bias and tortured tubes...that's going to sound very different into a standard power amp.


----------



## c7spheres

- I think it's more about if you just get something you like and it gives you the character of said amp that the module represents.
- One thing I like about Synergy is they don't claim it's like the real amp anywhere. Nowhere on the advertising do they claim this. At least what I've seen ( I haven't read it all). The only thing regarding feel is the 3 way cathode select switch on the back of module will choose the 3 "most popular" feels. So they make it apparent the module is gonna have 3 feel settings basically. implying it's different. 
- They also claim the tones in the module to not be identical as well. Like in the description of the SLO module they say "Mike Soldano himself designed this dual 12AX7-powered preamp to elicit the same thick sound, creamy gain, and endless sustain of his original amp." 
- See, this is all advertising word-craft. They are telling you it's not the real deal yet trying to tell you it will give you that character but not exact so you'll still buy it. 
- The reality is that some of these combinations might end up being preferred over the real thing, because they are they're own thing and it's just subjective. A little bit like someone liking a modded amp over the original etc.
-What if they partnered with Fractal to make a module or combo amp/head you plug the AxeFx into and it switched all these different power amps and also preamp tubes combo at the same time while using modelling too? Would that be the ultimate abomination to the original amps or evolution? : )


----------



## Meeotch

Good conversation!

I bit the bullet this winter and went balls deep into a Synergy rig. I bought a SYN-1, and both the SLO and Uberschall modules. I'm running this into a Fryette Classic XXX power amp (had to sell a ton of shit for that one!)

So far I'm super impressed with the tones. I'm sure the Fryette plays a big role, but I really think Synergy have done an awesome job here. I've been flipping amps like crazy the last 2 years, and my list only gets bigger and bigger. When I saw the future plans for the Bogner, Engl, and Fryette modules I was sold, as I've always wanted to try a UL, Uberschall, and Powerball to name a few. This will give me the chance to get legit representations of these tones without having to buy head after head. Plus the idea of having Fender Twin cleans and Twin Jet gain in the same amp is insane!

I can see why Opeth went for the SLO module. It produces a monster wall of sound - thick, rich, and full. I can now see why the SLO has such a huge following, because I haven't quite gotten these tones before. It needs a boost for the nasties, but most amps do anyways!

The Uberschall is another amp I've never tried, and damn this module is sick. Channel 1 has an upper mid emphasis and is perfect for fast, tight rhythms, where channel 2 is more brutal and scooped. Both have tons of gain on tap.

I'm looking forward to the Fryette modules, and will probably pick up the Powerball next. Yes it is a big investment up front, but you can look at it like the more invested you get, the more amazing pure tube tones you have at a price that will be less than owning the respective heads. Sure you could just go digital, but what kind of fun is that??


----------



## jco5055

Meeotch said:


> Good conversation!
> 
> I bit the bullet this winter and went balls deep into a Synergy rig. I bought a SYN-1, and both the SLO and Uberschall modules. I'm running this into a Fryette Classic XXX power amp (had to sell a ton of shit for that one!)
> 
> So far I'm super impressed with the tones. I'm sure the Fryette plays a big role, but I really think Synergy have done an awesome job here. I've been flipping amps like crazy the last 2 years, and my list only gets bigger and bigger. When I saw the future plans for the Bogner, Engl, and Fryette modules I was sold, as I've always wanted to try a UL, Uberschall, and Powerball to name a few. This will give me the chance to get legit representations of these tones without having to buy head after head. Plus the idea of having Fender Twin cleans and Twin Jet gain in the same amp is insane!
> 
> I can see why Opeth went for the SLO module. It produces a monster wall of sound - thick, rich, and full. I can now see why the SLO has such a huge following, because I haven't quite gotten these tones before. It needs a boost for the nasties, but most amps do anyways!
> 
> The Uberschall is another amp I've never tried, and damn this module is sick. Channel 1 has an upper mid emphasis and is perfect for fast, tight rhythms, where channel 2 is more brutal and scooped. Both have tons of gain on tap.
> 
> I'm looking forward to the Fryette modules, and will probably pick up the Powerball next. Yes it is a big investment up front, but you can look at it like the more invested you get, the more amazing pure tube tones you have at a price that will be less than owning the respective heads. *Sure you could just go digital, but what kind of fun is that??*



Honestly I think that's what it comes down to at least for me. Since I currently do not make a living off of music/can't get tax write offs from gear etc, I really think it makes no sense for myself to stick to one amp/model only, so some kind of modeler/multi-amp solution is the only way to go. I think almost anyone that has the $$$ and space/ability to have all analog seems to prefer that/knows that's the way to go, bur I can't decide if the convenience of digital/Axe FX still qualifies under that "if you have very limited $$$ to spend on gear Axe FX 3 (or Kemper/Helix etc) is really the only smart way to go" or I just can't give up analog, and Synergy is that perfect marriage between modeling and analog. 

Honestly if they had some kind of rental/try out service for the modules (or my local guitar center starts stocking them) it would be a no-brainer.


----------



## Meeotch

Last I checked GC is carrying Synergy, so you could always order it and try it out before commiting. 

I have yet to take the plunge into digital, although the Axe III is very inticing. I just have too much fun with tube amps and 4x12s to go down that rabbit hole. I'm sure I'll try it eventually, and like you said for some people it totally makes sense.


----------



## Jon Pearson

I am really curious about hearing the Synergy stuff in person as a former Randall RM user. The Randall stuff was cool, but the stock modules left quite a bit to be desired. The Synergy stuff seems like a home run, but not likely for me given that I'm pretty satisfied with the Axe III and my couple of tube amps that I still have.

If Mesa bought into the module thing (unlikely) and did a JP2C or Mark style module, it would sway me more. As it is I think there are a lot of really cool modules, but the Mark sound is kind of a go-to for me, and the Axe models are so damn good running through my cabs that it's pretty hard to imagine anything trumping them.


----------



## jco5055

I wish Synergy somehow came up with effects also, one reason I lean towards Axe FX is the $$$ saved as it also has effects, which seems to be at the bare minimum $500 or so dollars for a decent multi-effects processor.


----------



## Emperoff

Problem with Synergy is, old Egnater racks were 400$, 600$ later on (new). And they hosted up to 4 modules. Synergy is charging 900$ for a two module setup which puts you into a 1800$ 4 channel rack preamp when full. Not that great of a deal if you ask me...



KnightBrolaire said:


> jesus the synergy destroyed the kemper and helix in this instance.



And the drums destroyed the mix (and almost my eardrums). Good thing he provided solo tracks...


----------



## c7spheres

I contacted Synergy to confirm if infact the sensing tech is only for the powered head and combo, and also asked what that tube inside the Syn-1 and Syn-2 are used for. My guess is it could be for either the effects loop, the sag control, or the cab sim. It would be nice to know. Will report back if I get a reply.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Emperoff said:


> Problem with Synergy is, old Egnater racks were 400$, 600$ later on (new). And they hosted up to 4 modules. Synergy is charging 900$ for a two module setup which puts you into a 1800$ 4 channel rack preamp when full. Not that great of a deal if you ask me...
> 
> 
> 
> And the drums destroyed the mix (and almost my eardrums). Good thing he provided solo tracks...



are you sure you're not talking about the randalls? 
The egnater branded stuff was never that cheap.


----------



## c7spheres

There's stirings in the dark about the Deliverance module coming very soon. Along with others. Can't wait to see this. Right now I think the Ecstacy and Uber are my fav's, especially that Ecstacy. It's probably all BS.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

diagrammatiks said:


> are you sure you're not talking about the randalls?
> The egnater branded stuff was never that cheap.



Over here they were blowing out the Egnater modules and racks at Guitar Center for at least a year after it was discontinued/wasn’t being sold at retail. Since it was always so niche, folks just thought it was always really cheap once they tried liquidating it all.


----------



## 0rimus

Yeah I got an email saying the Fryette modules were due in May sometime; but that was before the pandemic/quarantine stuff was in full swing, so I wouldn't hold them to that.

Also I got my Powerball module. And I'm super impressed. Has no right to sound that good.

I was worried with a few recent threads having a hater-fest about the Powerball, as I've literally never even seen an Engl in real life and most of my love for the PB is based on nostalgic idealism/band association.

Still honeymooning. I'll try and make my lazy ass do a NRD or at least a crummy write-up with pictures this weekend.

A financial hurdle to get into the synergy setup for sure (for a retail heathen like me) but I regret nothing.

I need a jcm900 module now, the Pitbull, a 5150 one...


----------



## Emperoff

diagrammatiks said:


> are you sure you're not talking about the randalls?
> The egnater branded stuff was never that cheap.



I saw a post from Bruce Egnater itself when I was looking for one talking about the pricing, so yeah.


----------



## jsmalleus

Good way around those worries about the power amp flavors is to skip the SYN5050 & other $$$ power amps and grab one or two much cheaper Randall RT 2/50's instead. The transformers from the amps the modules are based on won't be there, but you can load each side up of it with just about any power tube & they're midi switchable. Grab two for less than one new SYN5050, slap different tubes in em, bias them with the super easy test points and adjustment knobs right on the front, and welcome to flavor country (mine are loaded with 6L6, EL34 in one, KT77 and 6550's in the other). Just one with 6L6 and EL34 or another tube type covers a ton of ground. All controllable with the same single press of the footswitch you're using to switch modules and any effects unit if you get it all hooked up together. Plus the cathode switches on the synergy modules, lots of options in there and feels better than any modeler/profiler I've tried. I use the SYN5050 for the live rig since it's 1u and lighter, but the RT 2/50s are where it's at and what I play thru 90% of the time (out of them, the syn5050, mesa 295, vht 2/50/2, RnR PWR-150, and Carvin TS100 I picked up after selling most of my other amps in favor of the modular setup). If you dig a more hi-fi sound you might want the syn/fryette/carvin instead, but the randall is a bit juicier and raunchier like the mesa, which is more my speed and with the ability to load two different types of tubes into one power amp and midi switching, it's a beast.

Or just run it through the power section of any amp you already have! It's easy to forget you don't even need to buy a separate power amp if you want to just add it to your existing amp or hear what it sounds like with what you already have. If it has an effects loop, and you want to try the synergy stuff, just get a syn1 and plop it on top of your amp.


----------



## GoldDragon

Shask said:


> That is usually one issue of these systems. If you use the same poweramp, many preamps tend to start sounding, and feeling, the same. People tend to downplay how much the poweramp effects the sound and feel of amps. It took me many years to understand that also, after using different rack preamps through the years.



The poweramp and (even more so) the cab makes a bigger difference than the preamp.

While I'm not a big fan of Line6 modeling, their powercab concept is a really good idea. Its a FR cab that is loaded with IRs to make it sound like different cabs.

I'm not really sure of its value when used with modelers that already have IRs built in, but for someone with a versatile tube amp, it might give you ability to nail many different tones.


----------



## Genome

Does anyone know if these play well with a Matrix? Presumably not, as there's no power amp simulation? Thinking about picking up the rack pre but I've only got a GT1000FX, no tube power amps.


----------



## c7spheres

Genome said:


> Does anyone know if these play well with a Matrix? Presumably not, as there's no power amp simulation? Thinking about picking up the rack pre but I've only got a GT1000FX, no tube power amps.


 The Syn-1 and Syn-2 have cab sim output on them. They sound really good from what I've heard on the YouTube vids.


----------



## c7spheres

c7spheres said:


> Ok. I figured it all out.
> - The Syn50 does not have auto sensing. It's a seperate power amp
> - The 3 way switch on the back of some modules is effectively a voicing switch.
> - The Autosensing tech they patented is only on the Syn30 and Sty50 heads and combo at this time which sense automatically and changes up the power amp to suit.
> Check out this Sweetwater vid starting around 3:25. He talks aboutit having automatic sensing.
> 
> 
> - On modules with multiple channels Synergy says there isan additional switch to choose which channel you can use for backward compatibility with the Randall module chassis
> - With older Egnater chassis both channels will still work as normal!
> - With older modules in a Synergy unit those will work as normal too! Forward compatible.
> 
> 
> - What this means is that curerntly to get the full Syngery experience with no comprimising then you want a Synergy Head or combo until something else compatible with the auto sensing tech comes around.
> Here's a link to the grail forum that takes a quote from the Synergy Facebook page from 09-11-2017.
> 
> http://mtsforum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?t=22040&sid=17e71b06095610b85299f68dad4df7f7
> 
> 
> - HOpefully I didn't get somethign else wrong, but what do you expect for free customer service?!: )





Apparently I like the taste of my foot or something : ) I was wrong again. 
After a couple attempts I finally got word back from Synergy. The Combos, Heads, and SYN-1, and SYN-2 all have the sensing tech inside it the Syn5050 power amps does not. The sensing tech is infact inside the first preamp stage which is not inside the modules, but it interacts with the modules somehow. That must be what the tube inside the Syn-1 and Syn2 is for then. Good to know. Sorry for any confusion.


----------



## cardinal

Yeah, I've been trying to make the point throughout the thread but perhaps am not saying it persuasively enough.

The modules do not have the V1 stage in them. That's why you can't just plug into them. You need one of their "rack" bays (combo, head, syn-1, syn-2) because those "bays" contain the input stage V1. The bias of that stage is critically important, and traditionally Fender has used a general range of values (warm, fat), Marshall has used a general range of values (brighter, tighter), and then Soldano did it's thing (cold clipper). Synergy's modules are able to tell the "module bay" which input bias values to use to best match the type of module.


----------



## c7spheres

NOW I'm really paralyzed between Axe Fx III and Synergy stuff. This module looks killer. It's 2 channels and the depth and presence section is per channel assignable! Being a VHT power amp user it's even more tempting. Maybe this and a TDLX module I'm thinking, but that Ecstacy module is nice too, and that SLO and the VH4, or the HBE. I want to try them all.

http://synergyamps.com/shop/syn-modules/fryette-deliverance-module


----------



## crankyrayhanky




----------



## c7spheres

HOLY MC-$hit my pants! It's a reality! 

http://synergyamps.com/shop/syn-modules/fryette-ultra-lead-pre-amp


----------



## Elric

c7spheres said:


> Apparently I like the taste of my foot or something : ) I was wrong again.
> After a couple attempts I finally got word back from Synergy. The Combos, Heads, and SYN-1, and SYN-2 all have the sensing tech inside it the Syn5050 power amps does not. The sensing tech is infact inside the first preamp stage which is not inside the modules, but it interacts with the modules somehow. That must be what the tube inside the Syn-1 and Syn2 is for then. Good to know. Sorry for any confusion.


The 5050 does not need the sensor... the sensing is only useful for the preamp. So anything that can host a module needs it... The 12AX7 in the Syn 1/2, 50, 30 is the V1 of the preamp circuit and the sensor controls the passive network on the input of the first Valve. The two valves on the module are V2 and 3... All the Syn preamps are 3 12Ax7 preamps by virtue of V1 being on the host.

I have a full Synergy rack rig: Syn2/Syn5050/AxeFx II. It is an absolutely amazing setup.


----------



## c7spheres

Elric said:


> The 5050 does not need the sensor... the sensing is only useful for the preamp. So anything that can host a module needs it... The 12AX7 in the Syn 1/2, 50, 30 is the V1 of the preamp circuit and the sensor controls the passive network on the input of the first Valve. The two valves on the module are V2 and 3... All the Syn preamps are 3 12Ax7 preamps by virtue of V1 being on the host.
> 
> I have a full Synergy rack rig: Syn2/Syn5050/AxeFx II. It is an absolutely amazing setup.


 Yep, correct, the 5050 does not have the sensing, the syn-1 and syn-2 have it. That's what Synergy told me.


----------



## Ribboz

I vaguely remember someone at NAMM saying the Synergy modules smell like burning plastic. Was this other peoples experience?


----------



## Elric

Ribboz said:


> I vaguely remember someone at NAMM saying the Synergy modules smell like burning plastic. Was this other peoples experience?


Mine seem to be scentless (Syn 2, 5050, Seven Modules). I would prefer "Springtime Fresh" or perhaps "Winter Pine" but will make do without olifactory output.


----------



## Mathemagician

Me waking up today: 
Maybe I’ll practice some guitar after work. Only got some light things to do around the house afterwards.

Me Mid-afternoon: 
...Maybe I DO need to sell my Kemper and buy a synergy rig?


----------



## cardinal

I have a spare power amp that I have got to sell off before I start buying a bunch of these preamps


----------



## KnightBrolaire

FYI: if anyone's thinking about running the synergy stuff direct into an interface, don't. It sounds noticeably worse than if you use it with a poweramp.


----------



## c7spheres

KnightBrolaire said:


> FYI: if anyone's thinking about running the synergy stuff direct into an interface, don't. It sounds noticeably worse than if you use it with a poweramp.


 Even with the cab sim output it has? I've heard some good results on YouTube people are getting using it that way.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

c7spheres said:


> Even with the cab sim output it has? I've heard some good results on YouTube people are getting using it that way.


yeah. I'll try some other modules and see if it's just the SLO but man did the SLO sound like shit recorded direct. I loved how it sounded into my Revv 100p. I'll prob end up making a comparison video so people can see what I mean.


----------



## op1e

Did you try a power amp sim with it direct? I learned myself the hard way with my 6505mh as a preamp. Get the free Ignite Amps TPA and put it between your pre and IR.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

op1e said:


> Did you try a power amp sim with it direct? I learned myself the hard way with my 6505mh as a preamp. Get the free Ignite Amps TPA and put it between your pre and IR.


no, just the syn1 and slo module straight to my interface. . I'm going to record it with some amps acting as the poweramp later.


----------



## c7spheres

op1e said:


> Did you try a power amp sim with it direct? I learned myself the hard way with my 6505mh as a preamp. Get the free Ignite Amps TPA and put it between your pre and IR.





KnightBrolaire said:


> no, just the syn1 and slo module straight to my interface. . I'm going to record it with some amps acting as the poweramp later.



I've tried that Ignite Amps free sim on my V-Twin rack along with various IR's from Ownhammer and ML Labs. It sounds pretty good and gives that sound and depth a power amp gives. 
- It's kinda odd though to take a cab sim output from something like a Synergy and pump it through a power amp sim though. The Syergy says it's supposed to simiulate playing through a tube amp meaning power section and cabinet. They say it supposed to have the exact feel of a tube amp. 
- A video sounds like a great idea.


----------



## op1e

I didn't read where he used the cab sim out, just said direct?


----------



## c7spheres

op1e said:


> I didn't read where he used the cab sim out, just said direct?


 I don't think he said cab sim out. My error.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

op1e said:


> I didn't read where he used the cab sim out, just said direct?


I bypassed the built in cab sim and used wall of sound as an IR loader


----------



## c7spheres

KnightBrolaire said:


> I bypassed the built in cab sim and used wall of sound as an IR loader


 You gonna try the built in cab sim at some point? Seems like it sounds good to me from some of those demos.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

c7spheres said:


> You gonna try the built in cab sim at some point? Seems like it sounds good to me from some of those demos.


I did try it briefly but it sounded like ass versus using my own IRs. I'll try it again along with a poweramp and see if it sounds better.


----------



## c7spheres

KnightBrolaire said:


> I did try it briefly but it sounded like ass versus using my own IRs. I'll try it again along with a poweramp and see if it sounds better.


 It's jsut strange that it'd sound like ass. There seems to be others getting good sounds out of it. It's supposed to sound and feel like the power amp and cab according to Synergy.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

c7spheres said:


> It's jsut strange that it'd sound like ass. There seems to be others getting good sounds out of it. It's supposed to sound and feel like the power amp and cab according to Synergy.


It definitely sounds significantly worse than using my own IRs, and wayyy worse than if I use my own IRs and Wall of Sound's poweramp sim or if I use my Revv 100p as the poweramp. 
I mean just listen to the clips I made (same settings on the SLO module, same guitar/riff):
http://www.mediafire.com/file/zoq1drjbksogsse/syn-SLO.zip/file


----------



## Mathemagician

KnightBrolaire said:


> It definitely sounds significantly worse than using my own IRs, and wayyy worse than if I use my own IRs and Wall of Sound's poweramp sim or if I use my Revv 100p as the poweramp.
> I mean just listen to the clips I made (same settings on the SLO module, same guitar/riff):
> http://www.mediafire.com/file/zoq1drjbksogsse/syn-SLO.zip/file



Upload it to SoundCloud so I can listen on mobile. 

Por Favor.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Mathemagician said:


> Upload it to SoundCloud so I can listen on mobile.
> 
> Por Favor.


my soundcloud is full


----------



## c7spheres

KnightBrolaire said:


> It definitely sounds significantly worse than using my own IRs, and wayyy worse than if I use my own IRs and Wall of Sound's poweramp sim or if I use my Revv 100p as the poweramp.
> I mean just listen to the clips I made (same settings on the SLO module, same guitar/riff):
> http://www.mediafire.com/file/zoq1drjbksogsse/syn-SLO.zip/file


 Awesome! I've been listening to them and I loaded them up in Reaper to mess with. I'm taking ear breaks every few minutes and really trying to be objective with them. I'll report back soon. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## c7spheres

Ok, This is a mixing rabbit hole of sorts.
- All the tracks I heard sound basically good and useable and up to par. It's all gonna come down to a preference or what works best for the song or tone wanted.
- Right off the bat without doing anything to the tracks my favorites in order are:
1. grinder_syn1SLO_v30IR+kt88pwrampsim
2. grinder_syn1SLO_v30IRs
3. grinder_syn1SLO_revvpwramp+ownv30_57+160mics
3. grinder_syn1SLOdirect
4. grinder_syn1SLO_defaultcabsim
5. grinder_syn1SLO_revvpwramp_v30_87+57mics
6. grinder_syn1SLO_v30IR+6L6pwrampsim

- It's strange because although 3 and 5 are similar and 1 and 6 are similar I'm not hearing the mid's the same in them.
- Number 2 sounds the best really but in a steril kinda way


- After messing with them using combinations of my own IR's, An Ignite amps power amp simulator, an ML sound lab IR and whatever other IR's I had lying around from Reaxis, plus just tryin to use basic quick EQ settings and such I found that all of these are totally usable in and mix and it really seems to be it's gonna come down to personal preference and what you're looking for within the song or the tone. These can all be manipulatied in one way or another to sound similar to each other. 
- I found I could make the cabsim track (#4 on my list) sound similar to #1 just using EQ, which makes sense that Synergy would make it sorta neutral. You just plug in the cabsim out into a mixing board and get an eq going and you're good. It makes sense. The same goes for direct (#3). I love that the direct doesn't have that totally shrill harsh fizzy going on that so many other direct outs sound like.
- I quickly found myself in the EQ and plugin and IR's mixing rabbit hole, but at the end of the day they all seem to work pretty well and could be worked with in a mix, imo.

- Thanks @KnightBrolaire for doing this! I spent the afternoon doing this and was really excited to be able to check this out. I've been really curious about the cabsim out on the Synergy because if it's up to par with what I'm Looking for then I could free up cash and sell off some of my reactive load boxes. I'm still undecided on that part and would probably have to get my hand on one to figure that out myself, but thanks again! This was awesome! 

: )


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Spent some time testing the SLO module and the VH4 module through the loops of different amps and decided that the Archon and Beta sound the best to my ears. The right poweramp (or the right loop for an amp) makes a huuge difference imo. I hated the modules through my Revv 100p (I've never gotten great results using pedals with this amp tbh) but the Beta takes pedals wonderfully. 


I REALLLLY like the VH4. Blue channel does a bit drier higher gain marshally thing and the Red channel is like a nastier, thicker boi armed with a thunderous low end. It plays nicely with lower tunings and ERGs unlike the SLO. 

The SLO is great for thrash/hair metal stuff (so is the vh4 tbh) but has a squishier, bouncier feel to the low end. It can definitely get tighter if you want it to but I have plenty of super tight amps, so I'm enjoying that squishier feel. The note clarity on the low end is not great for lower tunings or ERGs, but it's still a really fun module to dick around with. 

soundcloud playlist :
https://soundcloud.com/knightbrolaire/sets/synergy-slo-and-vh4-wankery


----------



## diagrammatiks

KnightBrolaire said:


> Spent some time testing the SLO module and the VH4 module through the loops of different amps and decided that the Archon and Beta sound the best to my ears. The right poweramp (or the right loop for an amp) makes a huuge difference imo. I hated the modules through my Revv 100p (I've never gotten great results using pedals with this amp tbh) but the Beta takes pedals wonderfully.
> 
> 
> I REALLLLY like the VH4. Blue channel does a bit drier higher gain marshally thing and the Red channel is like a nastier, thicker boi armed with a thunderous low end. It plays nicely with lower tunings and ERGs unlike the SLO.
> 
> The SLO is great for thrash/hair metal stuff (so is the vh4 tbh) but has a squishier, bouncier feel to the low end. It can definitely get tighter if you want it to but I have plenty of super tight amps, so I'm enjoying that squishier feel. The note clarity on the low end is not great for lower tunings or ERGs, but it's still a really fun module to dick around with.
> 
> soundcloud playlist :
> https://soundcloud.com/knightbrolaire/sets/synergy-slo-and-vh4-wankery



that sounds like a description of a slo. and a description of a vh4.

I wonder how close they actually got these.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

diagrammatiks said:


> that sounds like a description of a slo. and a description of a vh4.
> 
> I wonder how close they actually got these.


the SLO module gets verrry close according to people who've a/b'd them against the head.


----------



## MetalDaze

I found out that the Fryette UL module doesn’t have the cathode select switch. 

The two channels are hard wired to different settings.


----------



## Grindspine

This seems like a rare opportunity for someone like me. I have had a Mesa/Boogie rack based system for a while, but never could get my hands on a VHT/Fryette Pitbull Ultra Lead. A SYN 2 with the Triaxis in the loop would allow for all of my Mesa sounds and adding a Pitbull channel for way cheaper than a new or used VHT/Fryette head. Count me in on this bandwagon after I pay for my wedding reception next May!


----------



## fantom

c7spheres said:


> It's jsut strange that it'd sound like ass. There seems to be others getting good sounds out of it. It's supposed to sound and feel like the power amp and cab according to Synergy.



Fwiw, the built in cab sim on the gp/do sucks pretty bad for metal and gain tones. It wouldn't surprise me if Synergy is using the same circuit.



Grindspine said:


> This seems like a rare opportunity for someone like me. I have had a Mesa/Boogie rack based system for a while, but never could get my hands on a VHT/Fryette Pitbull Ultra Lead. A SYN 2 with the Triaxis in the loop would allow for all of my Mesa sounds and adding a Pitbull channel for way cheaper than a new or used VHT/Fryette head. Count me in on this bandwagon after I pay for my wedding reception next May!



If you just want a Pitbull, look for a used GP3 or the GP/DI, it would be significantly cheaper than buying the Synergy dock and module.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

I just realized I had 4 cab IRs going for my shootout instead of the 2 I wanted to use, so I'm going to redo it. I'll include the UL module in the new version as well.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

KnightBrolaire said:


> I just realized I had 4 cab IRs going for my shootout instead of the 2 I wanted to use, so I'm going to redo it. I'll include the UL module in the new version as well.


Finally finished re-recording the shootout.
https://soundcloud.com/knightbrolaire/sets/synergy-module-wankery/s-zmQhoOYXl3E
Pittbull track will be added to the playlist shortly.
I can also link to the uncompressed versions if anyone is interested.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

KnightBrolaire said:


> Finally finished re-recording the shootout.
> https://soundcloud.com/knightbrolaire/sets/synergy-module-wankery/s-zmQhoOYXl3E
> Pittbull track will be added to the playlist shortly.
> I can also link to the uncompressed versions if anyone is interested.


Pittbull track has been added.
It's a killer sounding module. Does the super tight/stiff vibes that pittbulls are known for but also still has some of that fun classic rock/JTM marshall flavor with lower gain settings. I realllllly like it, which is funny because I absolutely hated the UL head that I owned


----------



## Mathemagician

HBE or some other preamp for 90’s Melodeath/00’s metal core?


----------



## diagrammatiks

KnightBrolaire said:


> Pittbull track has been added.
> It's a killer sounding module. Does the super tight/stiff vibes that pittbulls are known for but also still has some of that fun classic rock/JTM marshall flavor with lower gain settings. I realllllly like it, which is funny because I absolutely hated the UL head that I owned



you weirdo. 

hey are you still running the egnater or do you have a synergy module now.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

diagrammatiks said:


> you weirdo.
> 
> hey are you still running the egnater or do you have a synergy module now.


I haven't used the egnater at all, I use a syn1 in the loop of my MI Beta. I sent the rm100 off to jaded faith to have it repaired and have them retrofit it so I can run the synergy stuff with it.


----------



## cardinal

Who is using these into an amp's FX loop?

I'm tinkering with a two channel amp where each channel has its own loop. One of the channels I never use, so I could plug something directly into its loop return and use an A/B box to switch between that and the other amp channel.

The rack format isn't ideal, but a few of these modules could be fun for this set up.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

cardinal said:


> Who is using these into an amp's FX loop?
> 
> I'm tinkering with a two channel amp where each channel has its own loop. One of the channels I never use, so I could plug something directly into its loop return and use an A/B box to switch between that and the other amp channel.
> 
> The rack format isn't ideal, but a few of these modules could be fun for this set up.


I use mine into MI Beta's fx loop. works great. Not every loop plays nice with the syn stuff though.


----------



## cardinal

KnightBrolaire said:


> I use mine into MI Beta's fx loop. works great. Not every loop plays nice with the syn stuff though.



Which modules do you have? I'd probably end up with the 800 for sure. Not sure of the others.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

cardinal said:


> Which modules do you have? I'd probably end up with the 800 for sure. Not sure of the others.


VH4, Pittbull, SLO. Waiting on my Deliverance module to finish being repaired. Had a dirty shirley module but I hated it.


----------



## cardinal

KnightBrolaire said:


> VH4, Pittbull, SLO. Waiting on my Deliverance module to finish being repaired. Had a dirty shirley module but I hated it.



Deliverance would be one that I'm interested in too. Love the D120.


----------



## c7spheres

I think it'd be cool if Synergy came out with a Tone Bender fuzz module.


----------



## Bearitone

c7spheres said:


> I think it'd be cool if Synergy came out with a Tone Bender fuzz module.


Eh, it would be a bit odd to make fuzz pedal module wouldn’t it?


----------



## c7spheres

Bearitone said:


> Eh, it would be a bit odd to make fuzz pedal module wouldn’t it?


 I think it'd be pretty cool to see stuff like fuzz module preamps maybe similar to the Hilbish module. Then again, I've been longing for a fuzz for a long time now : )


----------



## crankyrayhanky

I love my synergy setup. I have a bunch of synergy modules, but for this track, I used a Salvation Audio Sathanas (inspired from Fortin) going into syn2> a Diamond Nitrox for power:
https://soundcloud.com/copaceticdown/betrayer


----------



## AK66

They're fryette clone are off the chain


----------



## Elric

crankyrayhanky said:


> I love my synergy setup. I have a bunch of synergy modules, but for this track, I used a Salvation Audio Sathanas (inspired from Fortin) going into syn2> a Diamond Nitrox for power:
> https://soundcloud.com/copaceticdown/betrayer


I wish salvation would do some two channel Syn Modules.


----------



## crankyrayhanky

Elric said:


> I wish salvation would do some two channel Syn Modules.


I'm not sure if there's enough room in there, no one seems to be modding the syn stuff. I have a couple of syn stockers that are good but I would totally sacrifice for Salvo magic.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Forgot to post this back when I made them, so here's the SLO and Pittbull demos I posted earlier, but in yt form. I had to delete them from my soundcloud so I had room for other shit


----------



## c7spheres

KnightBrolaire said:


> Forgot to post this back when I made them, so here's the SLO and Pittbull demos I posted earlier, but in yt form. I had to delete them from my soundcloud so I had room for other shit




Those sound great. One of the few times I've ever heard IR's on an iso'd guitar mix and didn't think about it. Sounds like a real mic'd cab. Synergy is so tempting.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Oooooh finally a herbert module, and it sounds sick.


----------



## sleewell

does anyone have the 1u 5050 power amp? looks sick.


----------



## StevenC

sleewell said:


> does anyone have the 1u 5050 power amp? looks sick.


Fryette LXII and Synergy 5050


----------



## sleewell

StevenC said:


> Fryette LXII and Synergy 5050




awesome! how you do like the synergy?


----------



## c7spheres

KnightBrolaire said:


> Oooooh finally a herbert module, and it sounds sick.



Sounds great. I think I'm leaning towwards the blue channel more actually.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

c7spheres said:


> Sounds great. I think I'm leaning towwards the blue channel more actually.


yeah i preferred the blue. sounds wayyyyy bigger


----------



## StevenC

sleewell said:


> awesome! how you do like the synergy?


Oh, sorry I totally misread your comment! I thought you meant does anyone make a 50w stereo poweramp.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

aaand now john browne has a vid on it


----------



## laxu

Steve Fryette explaining the Pitbull module settings:


----------



## KnightBrolaire

I'm hearing whisperings about a IIC+ module, and some other mesa flavored ones coming down the pipeline. That could be super sick depending on the implementation.


----------



## c7spheres

KnightBrolaire said:


> I'm hearing whisperings about a IIC+ module, and some other mesa flavored ones coming down the pipeline. That could be super sick depending on the implementation.


 That'd be a game changer. If they come out you'd wanna get them right away before Gibson sues them or something. Mesa owns a lot of patents. Wonder how close they could get.
- 
- I had a question about the Syn-2 though. Is that cab sim an IR or analog cab sim?


----------



## Elric

c7spheres said:


> That'd be a game changer. If they come out you'd wanna get them right away before Gibson sues them or something. Mesa owns a lot of patents. Wonder how close they could get.
> -
> - I had a question about the Syn-2 though. Is that cab sim an IR or analog cab sim?


The IICP is real/imminent. 

Re: cab sim, it is just a really good sounding analog cab sim. No IRs, etc. The Syn plays well with anything else though. I use my AxeFx II to emulate cabs for it.


----------



## c7spheres

Elric said:


> The IICP is real/imminent.
> 
> Re: cab sim, it is just a really good sounding analog cab sim. No IRs, etc. The Syn plays well with anything else though. I use my AxeFx II to emulate cabs for it.


 Thanks for the reply. Where are you all hearing these rumors? I must tempt myself with Mesa modules.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I guess Mesa finally worked something out with Synergy/BAD, or they cooked up their own magic.

EDIT: Who actually owns Synergy amps? Dave Friedman seems to hate Mesa because of the Recto originally ripping off the SLO preamp.


----------



## Soya

Cmonnn Mark V module. Could be the thing to tear me away from my Kemper.


----------



## MrWulf

Mark V is like the least popular Mark. But IIC+? Im very interested. Imagine a rig with Mark IIC+ and Pittbull Ultra Lead/Deliverance.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

MrWulf said:


> Mark V is like the least popular Mark. But IIC+? Im very interested. Imagine a rig with Mark IIC+ and Pittbull Ultra Lead/Deliverance.


How tight do you want it. ALLL THE TIGHT


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Bro just give us a Mark 3 module with selectable Stripe modes since no one fucking models a Mark III.

I mean Mooer does, but it's not right at all.


----------



## MrWulf

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Bro just give us a Mark 3 module with selectable Stripe modes since no one fucking models a Mark III.
> 
> I mean Mooer does, but it's not right at all.



IK Multimedia Amplitube actually have a Mark III model


----------



## MrWulf

KnightBrolaire said:


> How tight do you want it. ALLL THE TIGHT



honestly, i've kind of given up on real amp GAS now but imagine a rig of a 2x12 + Egnater RM4 with Mark IIC+, Pitbull Ultra Lead, SLO and Morgan AC into a KSR PA 50 esque preamp.


----------



## WarMachine

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I guess Mesa finally worked something out with Synergy/BAD, or they cooked up their own magic.
> 
> EDIT: Who actually owns Synergy amps? Dave Friedman seems to hate Mesa because of the Recto originally ripping off the SLO preamp.


Thats kinda funny when you think about it, isn't Dave copping the Marshall tones? I'm glad he does tho, they are the shit


----------



## c7spheres

I see Synergy is gonna announce the release of the IICP module tomorrow. Now I'm really, really interested.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

c7spheres said:


> I see Synergy is gonna announce the release of the IICP module tomorrow. Now I'm really, really interested.



Doesn't look like it's gonna be a Mesa collaboration. Must have figured out their own secret sauce.


----------



## MrWulf

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Doesn't look like it's gonna be a Mesa collaboration. Must have figured out their own secret sauce.



considering some rando Euro slavs managed to clone the IIC+ into a preamp, its not really hard at this point to figure out what's the secret sauce for an IIC+ based design lol


----------



## 0rimus

I've never been much of a Mesa guy. What kind of vibe is the IIC+? 

I know recto tones/bands...


----------



## KnightBrolaire

0rimus said:


> I've never been much of a Mesa guy. What kind of vibe is the IIC+?
> 
> I know recto tones/bands...


Metallica's MoP, Most of Dream Theater's tones, Prince's Purple Rain, basically anything by Santana, Night Ranger, Whitesnake's 1987 album . Those are classic Mark tones. 
For more recent stuff Sutrah used a mk3 and Slipknot used one on their last album iirc.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

the iicp is in the wild now.


----------



## narad

KnightBrolaire said:


> the iicp is in the wild now.




I'm not sure if it needs to be dialed in like a IIC, but that didn't sound much like it at all. That was like the La Croix'd version of a IIC+.


----------



## StevenC

Wow, those both sounded awful.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

writing stuff off after 2 demos is asinine but mmkay

Leon's demo is really good.

Michael's demo is good too


Fryette designed the module, and they made a little vid with him talking about it :


----------



## narad

KnightBrolaire said:


> writing stuff off after 2 demos is asinine but mmkay
> 
> Leon's demo is really good.
> 
> Michael's demo is good too
> 
> 
> Fryette designed the module, and they made a little vid with him talking about it :




Thanks. Now I can write it off after 4 demos.


----------



## Kyle Jordan

If this is essentially a Mesa Mark series done up by Steve Fryette, I'll start throwing cash at Synergy. The sound samples in this video are ok, but they sound like they're recorded direct. They do capture some Markness though.


----------



## DeathByButterslax

Sounds pretty flat for a Mark


----------



## redragon

I think they are expensive for what they are . They sound great, but what’s the resale going to be like down the road?

Not saying it would be bad, but definitely a question versus a full-size head or combo.


----------



## c7spheres

I'm not hearing what I want from this thing yet. All I'm interested in is it's chugs, but apparently everyone forgot how to do those.
- When something like this drops and the one thing everyone really loves it for is avoided by everyone demoing it, it makes me suspicious, because I'm slightly paranoid.
- Am I the only person that straight out the gate wants to hear some Metallica chugs? None of these people demoing it seem all that thrilled by it. Crank it and chug. Punch that guitar and chug already. Ya'll play like a bunch of weaklings. jk.

I can hear in the demos that it seems like it can do the Metallica thing, like how the Herbert and VH4 can do a quasi-Tool thing. Not prefectly but close enough and still good and unique in it's own right.

That SergioMusic video of him doing the Dream Theater riffs are sounding pretty good. It may not be perfect but still sounds really good for that Dream Theater tone.

- This guy really shows some versatility of it and only begins to chug at 4:06 for two seconds, but it shows the module is pretty versatile for other stuff. I like those other tones it does too. 



-- I'll wait for the Pete Thorne video but I ain't getting my hopes up.

Of all the Synergy videos I've heard I think the Herbert, Ecstacy, TDLX, HBE, and Deliverance are my favs so far.


All hope is not lost. More raw chuggin demos are needed. Time will tell.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

c7spheres said:


> I'm not hearing what I want from this thing yet. All I'm interested in is it's chugs, but apparently everyone forgot how to do those.
> - When something like this drops and the one thing everyone really loves it for is avoided by everyone demoing it, it makes me suspicious, because I'm slightly paranoid.
> - Am I the only person that straight out the gate wants to hear some Metallica chugs? None of these people demoing it seem all that thrilled by it. Crank it and chug. Punch that guitar and chug already. Ya'll play like a bunch of weaklings. jk.
> 
> I can hear in the demos that it seems like it can do the Metallica thing, like how the Herbert and VH4 can do a quasi-Tool thing. Not prefectly but close enough and still good and unique in it's own right.
> 
> That SergioMusic video of him doing the Dream Theater riffs are sounding pretty good. It may not be perfect but still sounds really good for that Dream Theater tone.
> 
> - This guy really shows some versatility of it and only begins to chug at 4:06 for two seconds, but it shows the module is pretty versatile for other stuff. I like those other tones it does too.
> 
> 
> 
> -- I'll wait for the Pete Thorne video but I ain't getting my hopes up.
> 
> Of all the Synergy videos I've heard I think the Herbert, Ecstacy, TDLX, HBE, and Deliverance are my favs so far.
> 
> 
> All hope is not lost. More raw chuggin demos are needed. Time will tell.



watch leon todd's demo. He does metallica riffs right at the beginning and chugs with it a bunch.


----------



## c7spheres

KnightBrolaire said:


> watch leon todd's demo. He does metallica riffs right at the beginning and chugs with it a bunch.


 Thanks. I must've skipped over that. I want isolated chugs, but that sounds pretty good. Very Metallica-esque.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

c7spheres said:


> Thanks. I must've skipped over that. I want isolated chugs, but that sounds pretty good. Very Metallica-esque.


watch the whole demo, he does chugs out of the mix as well.


----------



## laxu

The Leon Todd demo sounds really good.

I'm sure people will come out of the woodworks and go "nuh uh, it doesn't sound exactly like 2C+ this and that revision" like they did for the Mark V but to me this definitely sounds in that ballpark at least.

The Synergy seems to do its best work if paired with more preamp gain oriented modules. Still don't care to buy one because the rack/head units these mount into are so damn expensive.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

One of the guys in the synergy group that's been using the iicp for a bit already compared it to his actual iic. I'm intrigued.


----------



## c7spheres

The Pete Thorn vid is good too. Iso'd guitar starts at 5:05, and the Pull me Under riff at 6:48. In all practicality it sounds like it has that iicp character. 
The John Brown one is good too. He does a camparison with a Mark IV that's been modded with a iicp power supply or something and it sounds nearly the same. Close as anyone could ask.


----------



## narad

There's weird stuff going on. Rabea ended on the note that it was a great hard rock amp but wouldn't be great for high-gain stuff. The John Brown video where he was matching the Mark IV sounded super close, but with the weirdest choice of a tone for the Mark IV I've ever heard. Every demo of an actual IIC+ is like the same 5 songs from the same two artists that everyone expects - why release a IIC+ module that doesn't do that and only captures the mid-gain sound?


----------



## StevenC

narad said:


> There's weird stuff going on. Rabea ended on the note that it was a great hard rock amp but wouldn't be great for high-gain stuff. The John Brown video where he was matching the Mark IV sounded super close, but with the weirdest choice of a tone for the Mark IV I've ever heard. Every demo of an actual IIC+ is like the same 5 songs from the same two artists that everyone expects - why release a IIC+ module that doesn't do that and only captures the mid-gain sound?


Have you ever even played a IIC+ though?


----------



## c7spheres

narad said:


> There's weird stuff going on. Rabea ended on the note that it was a great hard rock amp but wouldn't be great for high-gain stuff. The John Brown video where he was matching the Mark IV sounded super close, but with the weirdest choice of a tone for the Mark IV I've ever heard. Every demo of an actual IIC+ is like the same 5 songs from the same two artists that everyone expects - why release a IIC+ module that doesn't do that and only captures the mid-gain sound?


 I'm gonna wait and see if Ola does a chug video with it. He dials stuff with scooped mids a lot which I like.


----------



## narad

c7spheres said:


> I'm gonna wait and see if Ola does a chug video with it. He dials stuff with scooped mids a lot which I like.



There's another german guy doing a demo of this vs an engl/uber module and he gets in the zone for a split second before complaining about how hard it is to dial in the eq sliders. Maybe it's in there.  I honestly would have thought almost any high-gain distortion structure through the 5-band V would sound pretty close to the typical Mark sound. So far this one has sounded way clankier. Maybe someone needs to boost it - I usually boost my C+. The C++ is where I feel the boost is too much.


----------



## redragon

KnightBrolaire said:


> watch leon todd's demo. He does metallica riffs right at the beginning and chugs with it a bunch.


Leon gets it when he demos gear. He always has the right guitar to get the most out of what he’s playing through.


----------



## Emperoff

Just get a Mesa TriAxis


----------



## odibrom

Emperoff said:


> Just get a Mesa TriAxis



This, specially if the V2 one, since it adds lots of flexibility with the continuous control midi messages...


----------



## CanserDYI

Okay the modular stuff is pretty cool, but there's just too much stuff going on for a few flavors of amp that you can't really even run simultaneously like a modeler or dual amp situation (please correct me if I'm wrong), but I just don't really see why someone would want all this...stuff?...for a few sounds.

Idk, maybe I'm just not who they are marketing for but just seems to add a layer of complexity for the gimmick of modularity.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

CanserDYI said:


> Okay the modular stuff is pretty cool, but there's just too much stuff going on for a few flavors of amp that you can't really even run simultaneously like a modeler or dual amp situation (please correct me if I'm wrong), but I just don't really see why someone would want all this...stuff?...for a few sounds.
> 
> Idk, maybe I'm just not who they are marketing for but just seems to add a layer of complexity for the gimmick of modularity.


it's basically a cheaper way to get the sound of boutique amps, with the modules being actually designed by the creators of the amps they represent. It's a way for the average person to get pretty accurate representations of amps that are hard to come by (good luck finding a iic or a pittbull ul)/expensive. I own a pittbull and the module into a beefy power amp nails the tone to a t. Plus with the interchangeable option, you can pair say an SLO lead tone with a fryette clean/heavy tone and cover alll the tones.


----------



## Kyle Jordan

KnightBrolaire said:


> I own a pittbull and the module into a beefy power amp nails the tone to a t.



Reeaaaly now? Is your amp an Ultra Lead or CL? This is where the Synergy stuff attracts me the most at. By offering something I cannot get or get close enough with my Axe FX.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Kyle Jordan said:


> Reeaaaly now? Is your amp an Ultra Lead or CL? This is where the Synergy stuff attracts me the most at. By offering something I cannot get or get close enough with my Axe FX.


100CL but I had a UL a few years ago. The module actually has more gain on tap (which is in line with fryette's newer iterations of the pittbull) compared to my CL or the 90s UL I had. Other than that it's pretty spot on ime.


----------



## StevenC

Haven't seen a video yet from Ola and he actually has a IIC+.


----------



## narad

Kyle Jordan said:


> Reeaaaly now? Is your amp an Ultra Lead or CL? This is where the Synergy stuff attracts me the most at. By offering something I cannot get or get close enough with my Axe FX.



I highly doubt it'll get you there. A bunch of the synergy modules are amps I have here -- Ultra Lead / SLO / IIC+. I usually can tell the difference between Axe-FX and the amp, but it's hard. With the amp and the Kemper, it's kind of a toss up. With the synergy modules, so far, like every time. My gf even says it's not comparable and she's relatively new to the tone game.


----------



## laxu

CanserDYI said:


> Okay the modular stuff is pretty cool, but there's just too much stuff going on for a few flavors of amp that you can't really even run simultaneously like a modeler or dual amp situation (please correct me if I'm wrong), but I just don't really see why someone would want all this...stuff?...for a few sounds.



Think of it more like a "build your own amp" system. Then it makes a lot more sense. A full Synergy setup costs about as much as a decent boutique amp but if you get bored of what you have, it's easy to swap modules to change it up.

Personally I prefer modelers to this but it's nice to have other options on the market as well. It's also pretty cool how much Synergy has crammed into a small module like that.


----------



## CanserDYI

laxu said:


> Think of it more like a "build your own amp" system. Then it makes a lot more sense. A full Synergy setup costs about as much as a decent boutique amp but if you get bored of what you have, it's easy to swap modules to change it up.
> 
> Personally I prefer modelers to this but it's nice to have other options on the market as well. It's also pretty cool how much Synergy has crammed into a small module like that.


Yeah I definitely found it pretty interesting still, if a bit of a first world problem that in my opinion was solved by modeling. 

maybe I'm incorrect on this, but I found the SYN-1 a MAJOR waste of money? its a dock...that you load a preamp module into, that doesnt provide any power/volume? Seems to me that the entire preamp should be in the module, and the dock should be a power amp...am I wrong in the SYN-1 being a quite weird piece of this puzzle? Its the only one I really looked into, to be honest. I know they make one with a power amp, but I'm just really not understanding the point of the SYN-1.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

KnightBrolaire said:


> 100CL but I had a UL a few years ago. The module actually has more gain on tap (which is in line with fryette's newer iterations of the pittbull) compared to my CL or the 90s UL I had. Other than that it's pretty spot on ime.


If anyone wants to see just how close the pittbull module gets to my 100CL, here's a little blind comparison:

https://soundcloud.com/knightbrolaire/dogfight?si=deb94e30abfe4aab8fffd7ed72a9815c


----------



## StevenC

CanserDYI said:


> Yeah I definitely found it pretty interesting still, if a bit of a first world problem that in my opinion was solved by modeling.
> 
> maybe I'm incorrect on this, but I found the SYN-1 a MAJOR waste of money? its a dock...that you load a preamp module into, that doesnt provide any power/volume? Seems to me that the entire preamp should be in the module, and the dock should be a power amp...am I wrong in the SYN-1 being a quite weird piece of this puzzle? Its the only one I really looked into, to be honest. I know they make one with a power amp, but I'm just really not understanding the point of the SYN-1.


To maintain the compact size in the modules, some of the preamp tubes that aren't important for the sound of the specific module are in the SYN-1/2 or the amp heads/combo. So even if you rigged a jack socket onto the modules themselves, they'd be missing preamp stages and wouldn't work. This has been part of the design through Randall and Egnator.

The SYN-1 provides the common bits that would otherwise need to be added to every module to make them function as preamps. This saves a lot of space in each module and money overall. If used in a context where you only ever need one module at a time, a desktop studio environment going direct say, then it makes a lot of sense.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Emperoff said:


> Just get a Mesa TriAxis



Those have been going up in price unfortunately. People are starting to hoard them since they were discontinued.


----------



## CanserDYI

StevenC said:


> To maintain the compact size in the modules, some of the preamp tubes that aren't important for the sound of the specific module are in the SYN-1/2 or the amp heads/combo. So even if you rigged a jack socket onto the modules themselves, they'd be missing preamp stages and wouldn't work. This has been part of the design through Randall and Egnator.
> 
> The SYN-1 provides the common bits that would otherwise need to be added to every module to make them function as preamps. This saves a lot of space in each module and money overall. If used in a context where you only ever need one module at a time, a desktop studio environment going direct say, then it makes a lot of sense.


That actually does make much more sense when you put it that way, appreciate it.


----------



## Emperoff

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Those have been going up in price unfortunately. People are starting to hoard them since they were discontinued.



And for a very good reason. I'm definetely not parting ways with mine.


----------



## StevenC

KnightBrolaire said:


> If anyone wants to see just how close the pittbull module gets to my 100CL, here's a little blind comparison:
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/knightbrolaire/dogfight?si=deb94e30abfe4aab8fffd7ed72a9815c


Those sound incredibly different.


----------



## Xaeldaren

Guys, I'm not very technically adept, but I'm really curious about the Pitbull. I have a Pod Go I play through at home with headphones - would I be able to integrate a Synergy SYN-1 preamp with the Ultraead module with my Pod Go for effects and the headphone out on the Pod Go?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Xaeldaren said:


> Guys, I'm not very technically adept, but I'm really curious about the Pitbull. I have a Pod Go I play through at home with headphones - would I be able to integrate a Synergy SYN-1 preamp with the Ultraead module with my Pod Go for effects and the headphone out on the Pod Go?


they do have effects loops on the syn-1, so yeah, you could use it for effects. Not sure about listening to the setup with the headphone out on the pod go though.


----------



## MrWulf

The demo from Kohle certainly sounds better than whatever the fuck most of these guys are doing tbh. The Savage and the IICP sounds much more alive here


----------



## cardinal

Leon Todd's IICP demo sounded about right, especially since it seemed like he was using a 1960TV cab? I suspect a V30 cab would sound even better for the C+ thing. 

You could see his settings were about how you'd dial in a Mark. Some of these other demos are horrible. I wonder if they put all the knobs at noon and tried to tweak from there? That doesn't work with a Mark. They aren't hard to dial in, but you definitely don't start with all knobs at noon.


----------



## c7spheres

Not a demo but good info. Fryette is awesome. He explains a lot. Basically this is probably as close as it will get to an actual iic+.
- He explains he didn't desing the Syn head and combos, only the 50/50 and that it's more neutral than the heads and also a lot of talk about ow critical component placement is ect. He explained how gyrators instead of induction coils had t be used etc to prevent interference etc. He measured actual iic+'s to compare against and worked hard to match it as close as possible. He also explains how in certain ways it's actually better than a real iic+


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

cardinal said:


> Leon Todd's IICP demo sounded about right, especially since it seemed like he was using a 1960TV cab? I suspect a V30 cab would sound even better for the C+ thing.
> 
> You could see his settings were about how you'd dial in a Mark. Some of these other demos are horrible. I wonder if they put all the knobs at noon and tried to tweak from there? That doesn't work with a Mark. They aren't hard to dial in, but you definitely don't start with all knobs at noon.



When you get a Mark, the first things you need to do is put the bass at 1, treble at 8 - 10, boost the 80hz and 2200hz, and scoop the 750hz. Synergy needs to put that on the box. 

Leon's video seems to be the best because he definitely has had history with Marks. Owns a Mark IV and a TriAxis, and I think he owns a Mk5 variant?


----------



## narad

c7spheres said:


> Not a demo but good info. Fryette is awesome. He explains a lot. Basically this is probably as close as it will get to an actual iic+.
> - He explains he didn't desing the Syn head and combos, only the 50/50 and that it's more neutral than the heads and also a lot of talk about ow critical component placement is ect. He explained how gyrators instead of induction coils had t be used etc to prevent interference etc. He measured actual iic+'s to compare against and worked hard to match it as close as possible. He also explains how in certain ways it's actually better than a real iic+




Jeez...2 hours?! I had other things I wanted to do today but...ah well.


----------



## c7spheres

narad said:


> Jeez...2 hours?! I had other things I wanted to do today but...ah well.


 I'd guess you might be familiar with most of the info. There's some Boogie/Mark history in there. The 5 bands history on the Mesa's and the 6 band on the VHT's and some other stuff. 
- I think something interesting was many people couldn't tell the difference in A/B tests and would eventually start thinking the module was the amp.


----------



## narad

c7spheres said:


> I'd guess you might be familiar with most of the info. There's some Boogie/Mark history in there. The 5 bands history on the Mesa's and the 6 band on the VHT's and some other stuff.
> - I think something interesting was many people couldn't tell the difference in A/B tests and would eventually start thinking the module was the amp.



We'll see -- I'm skeptical. I hear things that are similar to the Mark IIC+ when it's dialed in to not sound like the tones people want to use IIC+s for. If you ever really wanted that Mark IIC+ mid-gain pushed classic rock sound, it seems kind of there in the demo vids. Super crushing IIC+ sound? I'm not hearing much of it. 

And I mean, 60W IIC+ vs. DRG vs HRG, there's a real difference there. So the premise also seems a little flawed -- those power sections are changing things in important ways. Maybe not for the hobbyist guitarist that just wants something in the Mark range, but there are modelers and there are other Marks for that too. 

There are also Mesa studio pres and quad pres, and triaxis, etc., that are preamps that are supposed to be in this space, so it's not like this hasn't been tried before.


----------



## narad

Two recent demos are a bit closer to me. This one really captures the warmth that's in the IIC+ crunch:



Then the bass and chug vibe at 2:02 here reminds me of some of the more characteristic Mark chugginess:


----------



## Xaeldaren

KnightBrolaire said:


> they do have effects loops on the syn-1, so yeah, you could use it for effects. Not sure about listening to the setup with the headphone out on the pod go though.



I emailed Synergy about this, and I'm gonna shoot Line 6 one too. I'm tentatively excited; I've wanted to try it for years now, and if I can get it working with the clean and ambient tones I've got right now I'd be so happy.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

narad said:


> Two recent demos are a bit closer to me. This one really captures the warmth that's in the IIC+ crunch:
> 
> 
> 
> Then the bass and chug vibe at 2:02 here reminds me of some of the more characteristic Mark chugginess:




It's got that chewy mids. But it seems like the poweramp cant produce that quick release bass/ solar plexus punch when you chug the Marks do so well. I cant explain it. It's sort of, the bass explodes and suddenly stops.


----------



## Kyle Jordan

narad said:


> And I mean, 60W IIC+ vs. DRG vs HRG, there's a real difference there. So the premise also seems a little flawed -- those power sections are changing things in important ways.



Exactly this. Even Mesa themselves fall in to this pattern by claiming that everything after the IIC+ sounds just like the IIC+. Just looking at the components and circuits will tell that's not right even before hearing.

And as much as the Mark series are my favorite amps, there is a ridiculous amount of variation. Even more than you see with Rectifiers. Hell, I've owned several pieces from the series and they all sound a bit different even though they still have that "Mark" character going. And I'm talking versions of the same model, not say a IIC+ vs a III or IV. My two Triaxis' sounded slightly different from each other, and they were the two most consistent of the bunch.

I'm really interested in this module not because I think it'll sound like a IIC+. I'm interested because it seems like it might be a IIC+ though the mind of Steve Fryette product.


----------



## Kyle Jordan

MASS DEFECT said:


> It's got that chewy mids. But it seems like the poweramp cant produce that quick release bass/ solar plexus punch when you chug the Marks do so well. I cant explain it. It's sort of, the bass explodes and suddenly stops.



Might be Simul-Class missing. Like narad posted above, there's lots going on in the poweramps on Boogies.


----------



## narad

Kyle Jordan said:


> And as much as the Mark series are my favorite amps, there is a ridiculous amount of variation. Even more than you see with Rectifiers. Hell, I've owned several pieces from the series and they all sound a bit different even though they still have that "Mark" character going. And I'm talking versions of the same model, not say a IIC+ vs a III or IV. My two Triaxis' sounded slightly different from each other, and they were the two most consistent of the bunch.



Yea, I have a Mark III blue stripe coliseum, so when I found another Mark III blue stripe coliseum at a storage warehouse sale, I grabbed it to flip. But then it sounded and reacted very differently in a way I really like, and now I can't bring myself to sell either. Again, I guess "very different" is subjective -- in the space of guitar amps they're very similar, but I basically think of it as "people who have hundreds of posts on a guitar forum should recognize the difference". It's bigger than your average pickup swap.

So when I am judging IIC+s, my IIC+ sounds to me a lot closer to basically all the youtube clips of guys from the IIC+ FB group than it does to any of the module so far. But we also all dial them in in roughly the same way. A couple demo guys have gotten it more similar but it seems to require the volume at like > 7.5, lead drive > 7.5, treble on 9+, B/M basically 0. In this case the character is there but the saturation and punchiness is lacking, feels like maybe 30% less gain then I would expect on similar settings. I think if someone gave this a shot and then boosted it, maybe it would have the IIC+ chugs.


----------



## Kyle Jordan

narad said:


> Yea, I have a Mark III blue stripe coliseum, so when I found another Mark III blue stripe coliseum at a storage warehouse sale, I grabbed it to flip. But then it sounded and reacted very differently in a way I really like, and now I can't bring myself to sell either.




Quick sidenote here: Definitely keep both. The Coliseum heads are very special. The only piece of gear I've sold and truly regretted was my fully loaded IIC Coliseum. It got me the most money and helped my buy my old house, but I could have waited. It's the best amp head I've ever played. Slightly beat out in tone by a Studio preamp in to a Simul Class 295 or Strategy 500, but only barely so and a much rarer beast.


----------



## narad

Kyle Jordan said:


> Quick sidenote here: Definitely keep both. The Coliseum heads are very special. The only piece of gear I've sold and truly regretted was my fully loaded IIC Coliseum. It got me the most money and helped my buy my old house, but I could have waited. It's the best amp head I've ever played. Slightly beat out in tone by a Studio preamp in to a Simul Class 295 or Strategy 500, but only barely so and a much rarer beast.



Personally I'd rather trade one for maybe a IIB coliseum and some cash or whatever. Gotta up the versatility a bit. Really interested in running the IIC+ pres into the coli power section though.

As an aside, Steve Lukather's dual IIC+ coli rig recently went up on Reverb. One may have sold (with a 2x12) for $20-25k. You never know, maybe it sold on like a $10k offer at it. But they went up for a very high price. Someone linked to an 80s vid of Steve talking about his rig with exactly those amps and he goes on to say he has them setup for his *clean* tone. His drive sound was a regular 100W IIC+. Kind of funny everyone is chasing colis these days for some sort of brutal punchiness, but guys who were handed this stuff in the 80s didn't always prefer to use them that way (probably closer to the way intended).


----------



## cardinal

I have a Studio Pre and M180 power amp, which together is similar to a III Coliseum. It's almost too much depth and low extension. My normal III does sound a small in comparison, but the huge footprint from the M180 power section can be a bit overwhelming.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

sounds pretty damn close here tbh


----------



## narad

KnightBrolaire said:


> sounds pretty damn close here tbh




Yea, I mean, running into the IIC EQ and power amp, it was negligible to me. The IICP has a bit more high-end harshness, but that was more apparent when running through its own EQ (even when it was on a good setting). I'm not sure the take-away point though is -- seems like the pre is pretty close but someone still needs to get it sounding this good through one of the synergy racks (or try some other rack power amps).


----------



## Xaeldaren

Synergy got back to me to let me know I can run the modules with the Pod Go with four cable method no problem. So...I guess I'm going to be €1,000 poor and one Pitbull richer.


----------



## c7spheres

KnightBrolaire said:


> sounds pretty damn close here tbh



Sounds really good to my ears too. Ola does a great job getting the chugs.



narad said:


> Yea, I mean, running into the IIC EQ and power amp, it was negligible to me. The IICP has a bit more high-end harshness, but that was more apparent when running through its own EQ (even when it was on a good setting). I'm not sure the take-away point though is -- seems like the pre is pretty close but someone still needs to get it sounding this good through one of the synergy racks (or try some other rack power amps).



Yep. I'd like to see similar demo with an actual tube power amp like a Fryette or Synergy etc. My guess is it'd be pretty similar and probably just as workable.

- That little 5 band Eq does seem to be a gripe for me though. I didin't realize it was as small as a finger tip! I could work with that but I'm always thinking about the future and pot replacemnet etc.
- After seeing the internal pict on the Synergy website I realized the entire front panel of pots/swtiches everything is mounted to a circuit board meaning a pain to change those out. Then when the time comes will anyone really be able to get a replacemennt mini 5 band eq? Just thoughts. - Curious if there's any other Mesa style modules in the works by them.

- Now here's a new Leon Todd video doing metal with the Syn 50/50. He's kicking some serious ass with this thing, but there's no isolated guitar parts unfortunately. He is kicking some ass though. Props to Leon.


The Metal starts around 0:55


----------



## Kyle Jordan

narad said:


> Yea, I mean, running into the IIC EQ and power amp, it was negligible to me. The IICP has a bit more high-end harshness, but that was more apparent when running through its own EQ (even when it was on a good setting). I'm not sure the take-away point though is -- seems like the pre is pretty close but someone still needs to get it sounding this good through one of the synergy racks (or try some other rack power amps).



Kind of sounds like the IICP has the mids and low mids of the IIC+, and more of the sharpness of other Marks. I actually hear it as kind of like a Studio/IIB or Mark IV. A bit all over the Mark map.

The thing that jumps out to me about the IICP from the Ola demo is the differences with the Graphic EQ. Fryette may have designed it more linear across the movements of the sliders, but it also sounds like it has more range.

My guess is this is going to end up as being good for most folks, but if you're very experienced with the Mark series or own an actual IIC+, you'll notice the differences. And that may or may not be a deal breaker for some.

Kind of like the Mark series are siblings and the IICP is the close cousin that mysteriously came about after dad and aunt Millie got drunk at that one 4th of July party that mom was really pissed about after for months.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

c7spheres said:


> Sounds really good to my ears too. Ola does a great job getting the chugs.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep. I'd like to see similar demo with an actual tube power amp like a Fryette or Synergy etc. My guess is it'd be pretty similar and probably just as workable.
> 
> - That little 5 band Eq does seem to be a gripe for me though. I didin't realize it was as small as a finger tip! I could work with that but I'm always thinking about the future and pot replacemnet etc.
> - After seeing the internal pict on the Synergy website I realized the entire front panel of pots/swtiches everything is mounted to a circuit board meaning a pain to change those out. Then when the time comes will anyone really be able to get a replacemennt mini 5 band eq? Just thoughts. - Curious if there's any other Mesa style modules in the works by them.
> 
> - Now here's a new Leon Todd video doing metal with the Syn 50/50. He's kicking some serious ass with this thing, but there's no isolated guitar parts unfortunately. He is kicking some ass though. Props to Leon.
> 
> 
> The Metal starts around 0:55



That's literally just the in the mix demo from his earlier iicp vid. If you want isolated chugs then actually go and watch that one


----------



## c7spheres

KnightBrolaire said:


> That's literally just the in the mix demo from his earlier iicp vid. If you want isolated chugs then actually go and watch that one


 Just realized that : ) Thanks. 
Not diggin the iso'd chugs in his vid much but the mix sounds great. He's still kickin ass though.


----------



## StevenC

The GEQ on the IICP sounds awful.


----------



## c7spheres

StevenC said:


> The GEQ on the IICP sounds awful.



It seems like it sounds just as good and has a wider range to me, but putting a larger range on a micro slider seems like it's gonna be really hard to dial in and (like Ola said in his video) basically impossible to keep the settings, which is easy enough to do a quick redial before jamming but that'd put a lot of extra wear on them. 
- I think once that part of the slider gets scratchy or anything it's gonna be a pain. If the EQ was easy to replace and I could have a few backups on hand that'd make it more buyable for me.
- I gotta think about this stuff especially living in dusty Arizona. I don't wanna spend all the money for this system just to have a big pain or cost changing pots out, because basically were talking about the module being unusable for that setting once the pot gets dirty. - Anyone who's cranked it up and hit a chug with scratchy pots knows what I mean. 

- I gotta look into the costs and availability of this with Synergy. If they're hording, piecemealing, or grossly over charging for these special parts I won't buy anything. I'll check with them and update any reply I get here. Email to BAD has already been sent. 

- So far this thing is really impressive, especially compared to other wannbe Boogie stuff. I wonder with the right power amp if it could deliver even better results than a real IIC+ because it's close but different, so maybe depending on tastes. Maybe.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Okay Ola made it sound really fucking good. IMO better than the IIC+ for my taste. The GEQ sounds pretty good too.

Pretty decent alternative to the TriAxis if youre like me and all you care about is Lead 2.


----------



## odibrom

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Okay Ola made it sound really fucking good. IMO better than the IIC+ for my taste. The GEQ sounds pretty good too.
> 
> Pretty decent alternative to the TriAxis if youre like me and all you care about is Lead 2.



Triaxis isn't just the Mark modes (LD1 Green and Yellow + all LD2modes), it's also the accessing the parameters with MIDI, and specially for the Version 2 which also receives continuous control messages. I almost only play with LD2 Green or Yellow and get everything I need, from big fat (black face?) cleans, to break up, to crunch, to tight metal, to lead... continuously, without breaks from changing presets or amp channels, just rocking back and forward an expression pedal. IT'S FRICKING AWESOME and flawless.

Getting on track with the Synergy stuff, I'll have to take a listen to Ola's video tomorrow. I think I've said this before, but Synergy could have taken a step further and have the parameters accessible via MIDI, not just the channel changes (it does channel changes via MIDI, right)...


----------



## MrWulf

Personally, i'd pair the IICP module with KSR's power amp rather than Synergy's power amp. It seems from Kohle's video that it is gonna fit better


----------



## MrWulf

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Okay Ola made it sound really fucking good. IMO better than the IIC+ for my taste. The GEQ sounds pretty good too.
> 
> Pretty decent alternative to the TriAxis if youre like me and all you care about is Lead 2.



NGL i think if i can get my hand on the module i'd love to toss it to Jaded Faith to mod it so that it is more modern and suitable for downtuned guitars. Probably tighter/more responsive bass + a bit more high end. But as it is it already sounds great


----------



## cardinal

Ola just sold a bunch of those things, I think. Sounded great.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Somebody put that through a Mesa 2:90!!!


----------



## c7spheres

c7spheres said:


> ...............
> - I gotta look into the costs and availability of this with Synergy. If they're hording, piecemealing, or grossly over charging for these special parts I won't buy anything. I'll check with them and update any reply I get here. Email to BAD has already been sent.



Got a shit reply from BAD after asking about this I asked them this:

Hi, I'm curious what the availability and replacement parts costs of
the 5 band graphic specifically and other pots are for this and other
modules and how difficult is it to replace these parts before I buy into
this system. I'm in a very dusty area and pot replacement happens more
often than in other areas. Any help is appreciated.

Thank you,

And I got this Reply, which was at least fast;


Hello...
All I can tell you is that we can repair what ever gets damaged.

All the best,


......... Now, I asked for specific information and let them know it was before I invest into this system. If This is the reply I get rather than even a basic 'I'll find out and let you know' or something, or even a rough idea, suddenly I could care less about anything with BAD's fingers on it. If you can't address my concerns about basic parts availability and price before I lay dow $1600+ on a Syn2 and couple modules and you know that and don't care, then no thanks. Shitty because it looks really promising. I have other, better idea's in the works though. I'm just not comfortable with them any more. Maybe my mind will change later down the road. I'm just not convinced I'll be able to maintain this piece of gear right now and don't feel like taking risks. I'm looking for a keeper unit that can be serviced when it breaks, not serviced only when it's new or a current product. Been there done that, no thanks. Not doing it again. I'll keep trying with them and stress I want specific information. I'll update with any new info. Always good to test out a companys customer service before buying I guess.


----------



## MrWulf

They probably learned from Apple and just want you to send whatever wrong to them to fix rather than have it fixing yourself


----------



## IwantTacos

c7spheres said:


> Got a shit reply from BAD after asking about this I asked them this:
> 
> Hi, I'm curious what the availability and replacement parts costs of
> the 5 band graphic specifically and other pots are for this and other
> modules and how difficult is it to replace these parts before I buy into
> this system. I'm in a very dusty area and pot replacement happens more
> often than in other areas. Any help is appreciated.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> And I got this Reply, which was at least fast;
> 
> 
> Hello...
> All I can tell you is that we can repair what ever gets damaged.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> 
> ......... Now, I asked for specific information and let them know it was before I invest into this system. If This is the reply I get rather than even a basic 'I'll find out and let you know' or something, or even a rough idea, suddenly I could care less about anything with BAD's fingers on it. If you can't address my concerns about basic parts availability and price before I lay dow $1600+ on a Syn2 and couple modules and you know that and don't care, then no thanks. Shitty because it looks really promising. I have other, better idea's in the works though. I'm just not comfortable with them any more. Maybe my mind will change later down the road. I'm just not convinced I'll be able to maintain this piece of gear right now and don't feel like taking risks. I'm looking for a keeper unit that can be serviced when it breaks, not serviced only when it's new or a current product. Been there done that, no thanks. Not doing it again. I'll keep trying with them and stress I want specific information. I'll update with any new info. Always good to test out a companys customer service before buying I guess.



nothing they can really do about the inductors. Those are special order parts and have always been. Replacing them yourself is like easily 200 dollars of parts.

plus aren’t you over reacting a little bit. The modules are 400 bucks each. That’s like a pair of bare knuckles or 2 pairs of nice pants.


----------



## StevenC

odibrom said:


> Getting on track with the Synergy stuff, I'll have to take a listen to Ola's video tomorrow. I think I've said this before, but Synergy could have taken a step further and have the parameters accessible via MIDI, not just the channel changes (it does channel changes via MIDI, right)...


I really don't think they had the space in those modules to fit stuff for digital control pots. I think the only way Chase Bliss manages it is by having a single format across all their pedals.

Though, more cynically, that would be R&D they would have to do instead of just rebranding the old Randall/Egnator system.


----------



## odibrom

StevenC said:


> I really don't think they had the space in those modules to fit stuff for digital control pots. I think the only way Chase Bliss manages it is by having a single format across all their pedals.
> 
> Though, more cynically, that would be R&D they would have to do instead of just rebranding the old Randall/Egnator system.



Yeah, it would need way more R&D than just re-branding... 12+ years ago I was eyeing the Randall modules, then the Egnator's... but by then I was already sold on the Triaxis...

The Ola's video is fun and always amusing. He seems to be enjoying the module.


----------



## laxu

StevenC said:


> I really don't think they had the space in those modules to fit stuff for digital control pots. I think the only way Chase Bliss manages it is by having a single format across all their pedals.
> 
> Though, more cynically, that would be R&D they would have to do instead of just rebranding the old Randall/Egnator system.



Guitarists are also dumb and can't discern between digital _control_ and digital _audio processing_. Every time I've seen a discussion about digital control of amps it's been "I don't want my sound to be digitized" nonsense.

Digital control is a lot easier to implement in digital pedals though. Hughes and Kettner has a good article on how they went about it on their amps and it seems like a lot more complicated than it looks at first glance.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

MrWulf said:


> Personally, i'd pair the IICP module with KSR's power amp rather than Synergy's power amp. It seems from Kohle's video that it is gonna fit better


the synergy poweramp is ass compared to beefier power amps. The best results I've seen/heard with the synergy stuff has been through the mesa290, fryette 2902 poweramp or with a suitable amp head. A lot of people have good luck with modded randall mts100 heads as well.


----------



## narad

laxu said:


> Guitarists are also dumb and can't discern between digital _control_ and digital _audio processing_. Every time I've seen a discussion about digital control of amps it's been "I don't want my sound to be digitized" nonsense.
> 
> Digital control is a lot easier to implement in digital pedals though. Hughes and Kettner has a good article on how they went about it on their amps and it seems like a lot more complicated than it looks at first glance.



Sucks to be H&K and reach peak design with your very first product. That control panel on the AS64 is amazing.


----------



## laxu

narad said:


> Sucks to be H&K and reach peak design with your very first product. That control panel on the AS64 is amazing.



Perfect choice for the guitar playing accountant.


----------



## narad

laxu said:


> Perfect choice for the guitar playing accountant.



Or backdrop for Ellen Ripley cosplay.


----------



## c7spheres

IwantTacos said:


> nothing they can really do about the inductors. Those are special order parts and have always been. Replacing them yourself is like easily 200 dollars of parts.
> 
> plus aren’t you over reacting a little bit. The modules are 400 bucks each. That’s like a pair of bare knuckles or 2 pairs of nice pants.



I'm just talking about replacement pots and the little 5 band eq replacemnt. I emailed them back asking for more info and how to go about ordering replacements explaining I want backups etc, so I'll see if they reply or not. 

I don't think I'm over reacting. If I buy it and like it then it'd likely stay in my rack for years. By the time it actually comes time to fix or repair it I can practically guarantee there will be no parts, the module won't be sold any more, may cost a fortune on the used market if it's available, and they will no longer service or repair them. 
- I've been down this road so many times with companies so I just think ahead about it and try to future proof certain future potential problems. Almost every company and product I have to deal with nowadays is like this unfortunately. I'm more of a fix it then replace it guy. 

I think the module sounds great and it looks like a great system though, but there's no denying when you look at the gut shots that those pots are cheap, and with them all being mounted to a custom board etc makes me hesitate a bit. 

I do all this to prevent downtime. If something breaks I wanna just swap it for a backup or fix it and keep going. I can't be trying to track down parts for weeks or months or potentially have a paperweight module because BAD won't sell me a part or potentially not repair or take weeks or months to fix it etc wehn that time comes. I'm really trying to avoid having to buy backups of everything. 

I'll update any reply they give me here for anyone interested.


----------



## laxu

c7spheres said:


> I think the module sounds great and it looks like a great system though, but there's no denying when you look at the gut shots that those pots are cheap, and with them all being mounted to a custom board etc makes me hesitate a bit.



I see nothing wrong with the construction. While it would require a bit of disassembly to replace a broken pot or slider, being able to take off the board and desolder things comfortably is something I prefer over having to work in tight spaces.

The construction is very similar to what Fryette uses at least in the Power Station. No surprise considering who designed these.


----------



## StevenC

narad said:


> Sucks to be H&K and reach peak design with your very first product. That control panel on the AS64 is amazing.


It's like a robot MkIV


----------



## IwantTacos

c7spheres said:


> I'm just talking about replacement pots and the little 5 band eq replacemnt. I emailed them back asking for more info and how to go about ordering replacements explaining I want backups etc, so I'll see if they reply or not.
> 
> I don't think I'm over reacting. If I buy it and like it then it'd likely stay in my rack for years. By the time it actually comes time to fix or repair it I can practically guarantee there will be no parts, the module won't be sold any more, may cost a fortune on the used market if it's available, and they will no longer service or repair them.
> - I've been down this road so many times with companies so I just think ahead about it and try to future proof certain future potential problems. Almost every company and product I have to deal with nowadays is like this unfortunately. I'm more of a fix it then replace it guy.
> 
> I think the module sounds great and it looks like a great system though, but there's no denying when you look at the gut shots that those pots are cheap, and with them all being mounted to a custom board etc makes me hesitate a bit.
> 
> I do all this to prevent downtime. If something breaks I wanna just swap it for a backup or fix it and keep going. I can't be trying to track down parts for weeks or months or potentially have a paperweight module because BAD won't sell me a part or potentially not repair or take weeks or months to fix it etc wehn that time comes. I'm really trying to avoid having to buy backups of everything.
> 
> I'll update any reply they give me here for anyone interested.



I'm telling you right now that you personally cannot replace the eq yourself.


----------



## AboutBlank

At least in Europe, companies are now obliged to ensure that their products can still be repaired/replaced 10 years after purchase.

Furthermore, I find it absolutely not unusual that one does not receive a complete table of the components that might break in the future, with availability and prices.
It is also by no means obligatory for the end customer to be able to buy spare parts separately.
If only for the reason that after the repair has been carried out by the customer, the device may no longer work within the technical specifications.
Not to mention potentially life-threatening voltages.


----------



## StevenC

I'm told Eventide still has a building full of H3000 components to support warranty claims on 35 year old machines.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

c7spheres said:


> I'm just talking about replacement pots and the little 5 band eq replacemnt. I emailed them back asking for more info and how to go about ordering replacements explaining I want backups etc, so I'll see if they reply or not.
> 
> I don't think I'm over reacting. If I buy it and like it then it'd likely stay in my rack for years. By the time it actually comes time to fix or repair it I can practically guarantee there will be no parts, the module won't be sold any more, may cost a fortune on the used market if it's available, and they will no longer service or repair them.
> - I've been down this road so many times with companies so I just think ahead about it and try to future proof certain future potential problems. Almost every company and product I have to deal with nowadays is like this unfortunately. I'm more of a fix it then replace it guy.
> 
> I think the module sounds great and it looks like a great system though, but there's no denying when you look at the gut shots that those pots are cheap, and with them all being mounted to a custom board etc makes me hesitate a bit.
> 
> I do all this to prevent downtime. If something breaks I wanna just swap it for a backup or fix it and keep going. I can't be trying to track down parts for weeks or months or potentially have a paperweight module because BAD won't sell me a part or potentially not repair or take weeks or months to fix it etc wehn that time comes. I'm really trying to avoid having to buy backups of everything.
> 
> I'll update any reply they give me here for anyone interested.


dude you could just run a mesa 5 band or a mxr10 band in the fx loop IF the mini 5 band ever shit the bed. It's post gain stage anyways. Besides you're getting wayyyy ahead of yourself, leaping to what if scenarios years down the road when you don't even own any synergy stuff


----------



## c7spheres

laxu said:


> I see nothing wrong with the construction. While it would require a bit of disassembly to replace a broken pot or slider, being able to take off the board and desolder things comfortably is something I prefer over having to work in tight spaces.
> 
> The construction is very similar to what Fryette uses at least in the Power Station. No surprise considering who designed these.



I don't really have a problem with the construction or components so much. I just need to know when I get a scratchy pot and they've quit making these and they no longer support them that I can replace them.



IwantTacos said:


> I'm telling you right now that you personally cannot replace the eq yourself.



Why not? It's just a thing soldered on a board. I can't solder well but I know people that can.



AboutBlank said:


> At least in Europe, companies are now obliged to ensure that their products can still be repaired/replaced 10 years after purchase.
> 
> Furthermore, I find it absolutely not unusual that one does not receive a complete table of the components that might break in the future, with availability and prices.
> It is also by no means obligatory for the end customer to be able to buy spare parts separately.
> If only for the reason that after the repair has been carried out by the customer, the device may no longer work within the technical specifications.
> Not to mention potentially life-threatening voltages.





Oh, I agree. They aren't obligated to service anything out of warranty or sell parts. This is why I'm doing my homework before I buy it. I've never dealt with BAD as a company or Synergy, but we're talking about basic pots here. If I can't get an answer or parts from them then I'll have to file Synergy under the warranty period for expented lifetime which is 2 years. They only warranty for 2 years so that's how long the investment should be expected to last.
- I just find it offsetting and deflating when you let a company know you're a new potential customer thinking of giving them $1600+ and they seem to care less.



StevenC said:


> I'm told Eventide still has a building full of H3000 components to support warranty claims on 35 year old machines.


 
That's awesome. I doubt that's true though. When I had my h3000d/se and GTR 4000 they wouldn't help me with anything at all for servicing. They just said they no longer service them. Probably whatever it was that was wrong with them they couldn't fix. Probably a DSP issue or something I'd guess. Eventide only in recent years started letting people download manuals. They use to charge $65 for hard copy and that was the only option. You couldn't even read the manual before you bought it. Because of that I never bought an Eclipse and sold an h7600 shortly after because of it too.

- If I'm gonna have to go through the hassel of getting basic pots and parts or service then I might as well stick with old school gear and local techs. Either way it's gonna be a hassel.



KnightBrolaire said:


> dude you could just run a mesa 5 band or a mxr10 band in the fx loop IF the mini 5 band ever shit the bed. It's post gain stage anyways. Besides you're getting wayyyy ahead of yourself, leaping to what if scenarios years down the road when you don't even own any synergy stuff


 Good idea with the EQ's. I just don't trust this compnay yet. When I do I may buy something from them. I like getting wayyy ahead of myself though. If I didn't I'd have to much down time.


----------



## StevenC

c7spheres said:


> I don't really have a problem with the construction or components so much. I just need to know when I get a scratchy pot and they've quit making these and they no longer support them that I can replace them.
> 
> 
> 
> Why not? It's just a thing soldered on a board. I can't solder well but I know people that can.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I agree. They aren't obligated to service anything out of warranty or sell parts. This is why I'm doing my homework before I buy it. I've never dealt with BAD as a company or Synergy, but we're talking about basic pots here. If I can't get an answer or parts from them then I'll have to file Synergy under the warranty period for expented lifetime which is 2 years. They only warranty for 2 years so that's how long the investment should be expected to last.
> - I just find it offsetting and deflating when you let a company know you're a new potential customer thinking of giving them $1600+ and they seem to care less.
> 
> 
> 
> That's awesome. I doubt that's true though. When I had my h3000d/se and GTR 4000 they wouldn't help me with anything at all for servicing. They just said they no longer service them. Probably whatever it was that was wrong with them they couldn't fix. Probably a DSP issue or something I'd guess. Eventide only in recent years started letting people download manuals. They use to charge $65 for hard copy and that was the only option. You couldn't even read the manual before you bought it. Because of that I never bought an Eclipse and sold an h7600 shortly after because of it too.
> 
> - If I'm gonna have to go through the hassel of getting basic pots and parts or service then I might as well stick with old school gear and local techs. Either way it's gonna be a hassel.
> 
> 
> Good idea with the EQ's. I just don't trust this compnay yet. When I do I may buy something from them. I like getting wayyy ahead of myself though. If I didn't I'd have to much down time.


Source being a friend who worked for Eventide. Maybe they were less helpful when you asked, but he seems pretty convinced they could do a small run of NOS reissues. There's not really much to go wrong in a H3000 beyond the buttons and encoders, which aren't a difficult fix at all.

The manual prices were a load of nonsense, but at least you got a useful manual in a nice binder. The H9000 manual is basically pointless and I've had more luck guessing at buttons and applying knowledge from using a H3000 SE than finding help in there.


----------



## IwantTacos

c7spheres said:


> I don't really have a problem with the construction or components so much. I just need to know when I get a scratchy pot and they've quit making these and they no longer support them that I can replace them.
> 
> 
> 
> Why not? It's just a thing soldered on a board. I can't solder well but I know people that can.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I agree. They aren't obligated to service anything out of warranty or sell parts. This is why I'm doing my homework before I buy it. I've never dealt with BAD as a company or Synergy, but we're talking about basic pots here. If I can't get an answer or parts from them then I'll have to file Synergy under the warranty period for expented lifetime which is 2 years. They only warranty for 2 years so that's how long the investment should be expected to last.
> - I just find it offsetting and deflating when you let a company know you're a new potential customer thinking of giving them $1600+ and they seem to care less.
> 
> 
> 
> That's awesome. I doubt that's true though. When I had my h3000d/se and GTR 4000 they wouldn't help me with anything at all for servicing. They just said they no longer service them. Probably whatever it was that was wrong with them they couldn't fix. Probably a DSP issue or something I'd guess. Eventide only in recent years started letting people download manuals. They use to charge $65 for hard copy and that was the only option. You couldn't even read the manual before you bought it. Because of that I never bought an Eclipse and sold an h7600 shortly after because of it too.
> 
> - If I'm gonna have to go through the hassel of getting basic pots and parts or service then I might as well stick with old school gear and local techs. Either way it's gonna be a hassel.
> 
> 
> Good idea with the EQ's. I just don't trust this compnay yet. When I do I may buy something from them. I like getting wayyy ahead of myself though. If I didn't I'd have to much down time.



Man, I don't know how to say this any simpler then what I already told you. Inductors for graphic eq's are a part that nobody uses for anything else. They are expensive as hell unless you buy several hundred of them at a time since they have to be tuned specifically for the circuit. 

And again the piece that you're worried about is only 400 dollars. All the other modules can reasonably be repaired yourself if you know what you're doing.


----------



## c7spheres

IwantTacos said:


> Man, I don't know how to say this any simpler then what I already told you. Inductors for graphic eq's are a part that nobody uses for anything else. They are expensive as hell unless you buy several hundred of them at a time since they have to be tuned specifically for the circuit.
> 
> And again the piece that you're worried about is only 400 dollars. All the other modules can reasonably be repaired yourself if you know what you're doing.


 I'm just talking about the pots and sliders. I'm just waiting for a reply from BAD about it.


----------



## MetalDaze

FWIW, I've had a SYN-1 and SYN-2 (along with a variety of modules) for a few years now and no issues. Granted, I live in a more forgiving climate.

I haven't heard of anyone else having significant issues either and the fact the they are still releasing new products (and adding more endorsees) makes me feel comfortable that they will be around for a while (if help is needed in the future).


----------



## MASS DEFECT

c7spheres said:


> Not a demo but good info. Fryette is awesome. He explains a lot. Basically this is probably as close as it will get to an actual iic+.
> - He explains he didn't desing the Syn head and combos, only the 50/50 and that it's more neutral than the heads and also a lot of talk about ow critical component placement is ect. He explained how gyrators instead of induction coils had t be used etc to prevent interference etc. He measured actual iic+'s to compare against and worked hard to match it as close as possible. He also explains how in certain ways it's actually better than a real iic+




What's with the host refusing to say the word "Gibson" or for that matter "Mesa Boogie" like he has a beef with them? I remember him doing a couple of Gibson videos.


----------



## c7spheres

MASS DEFECT said:


> What's with the host refusing to say the word "Gibson" or for that matter "Mesa Boogie" like he has a beef with them? I remember him doing a couple of Gibson videos.


 I forget. Wasn't there some kinda patent thing, or was that Peavey? Can't remember.


----------



## MrWulf

MASS DEFECT said:


> What's with the host refusing to say the word "Gibson" or for that matter "Mesa Boogie" like he has a beef with them? I remember him doing a couple of Gibson videos.



Probably dont want to incur the wrath of Mesa Boogie/Gibson. It reminded me when Bugera was making a Mark IV clone that ended up not released because they were scared that Mesa Boogie was gonna sueing them. Its probably is like that here.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

MASS DEFECT said:


> What's with the host refusing to say the word "Gibson" or for that matter "Mesa Boogie" like he has a beef with them? I remember him doing a couple of Gibson videos.



I agree with @MrWulf, in this case they're trying to show off a new product for sale, which would make Gibson/MB a bit unhappy.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Bugera making a Mark IV would be something interesting tbh.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

MASS DEFECT said:


> Bugera making a Mark IV would be something interesting tbh.



That's what the Magician was supposed to be. Not sure what happened to it, though. Supposedly legal issues with Mesa, but not sure how that didn't stop the TriRec.


----------



## StevenC

Fryette doesn't seem shy about saying things like "IIC+" or "Mark __", so I think it's just Henning being an ass. Like in the Nick Johnston Schecter video he says Stratocaster a couple of times then corrects himself to "S-type guitars".


----------



## MaxOfMetal

MASS DEFECT said:


> What's with the host refusing to say the word "Gibson" or for that matter "Mesa Boogie" like he has a beef with them? I remember him doing a couple of Gibson videos.



It's partly shtick. 

The kind of folks who buy into stuff like this look at Gibson, and really most big, legacy brands, as some sort of evil empire in which to rebel against.


----------



## MrWulf

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> That's what the Magician was supposed to be. Not sure what happened to it, though. Supposedly legal issues with Mesa, but not sure how that didn't stop the TriRec.



Last I check there's a few that made out into the wild, at least one i spotted off of ebay


----------



## MaxOfMetal

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> That's what the Magician was supposed to be. Not sure what happened to it, though. Supposedly legal issues with Mesa, but not sure how that didn't stop the TriRec.



Unlike Peavey, Marshall, Vox, etc. the other brands that Bugera/Behringer copied, Mesa has a lot of patents for certain design features of their amps. 

That said, it mostly only stopped them from selling in North America. For awhile the only listings for them were in parts of Asia. 

As for the Trirec vs. Magician, they were likely able to remove anything definitively infringing on one vs. the other.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Yeah, I watched the first parts again and I missed this one. He said he doesn't support unethical companies and won't mention their names. Whether it's a dig against Mesa or Gibson, I have no clue. 

This Henning guy is annoying. Like a passive-aggressive Glenn Fricker.


----------



## StevenC

MASS DEFECT said:


> Yeah, I watched the first parts again and I missed this one. He said he doesn't support unethical companies and won't mention their names. Whether it's a dig against Mesa or Gibson, I have no clue.
> 
> This Henning guy is annoying. Like a passive-aggressive Glenn Fricker.


He's talking about Gibson enforcing their trademarks or copyrights on shapes. He seems to be OK with TC and their patent company Behringer ripping off literally every company under the sun.


----------



## narad

MASS DEFECT said:


> Yeah, I watched the first parts again and I missed this one. He said he doesn't support unethical companies and won't mention their names. Whether it's a dig against Mesa or Gibson, I have no clue.
> 
> This Henning guy is annoying. Like a passive-aggressive Glenn Fricker.



I don't support unethical companies, says _YouTuber_.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

MASS DEFECT said:


> Yeah, I watched the first parts again and I missed this one. He said he doesn't support unethical companies and won't mention their names. Whether it's a dig against Mesa or Gibson, I have no clue.
> 
> This Henning guy is annoying. Like a passive-aggressive Glenn Fricker.



I THINK it was Hennig that said the Kemper was unethical because it's basically amp piracy. I think it was him because I remember being turned off when that whole shitshow stirred it's head.


----------



## MetalDaze

MrWulf said:


> They probably learned from Apple and just want you to send whatever wrong to them to fix rather than have it fixing yourself



Coincidently, Apple is changing its tune.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/17/22787144/apple-home-repair-iphone-mac-parts-tools-instructions


----------



## MrWulf

Hennig and his voice/attitude makes me think of him as an European version of Glenn Fricker. While i know its all a farce these days on those guys because its only an act its still makes me not want to check out their shit.


----------



## crankyrayhanky

just received and jammed the iicp module
This one is worth getting into synergy- it is spectacular

though live the clean channel will be sacrificed- you need that gain up as it affects the lead channel. But holy moly, this thing is smoking. I can't wait to get it recorded and see how it sits on a mix


----------



## KnightBrolaire

crankyrayhanky said:


> just received and jammed the iicp module
> This one is worth getting into synergy- it is spectacular
> 
> though live the clean channel will be sacrificed- you need that gain up as it affects the lead channel. But holy moly, this thing is smoking. I can't wait to get it recorded and see how it sits on a mix


CLIPS NAO


----------



## crankyrayhanky

KnightBrolaire said:


> CLIPS NAO


----------



## odibrom

crankyrayhanky said:


>




I like how it sounds... or in other words, how you made it sound. Thanks!, good work!


----------



## Trashgreen

My two IICP modules has arrived and they sound absolutely fantastic!!

Best sounding module so far at bedroom level, instant great tones once you turn it on.

You can easily get great tones without a boost but it takes pedals very well too, really opens the sound possibilities with this module.

..and yes I did buy TWO. Once I heard the videos released last week I knew that there was something special about this module. Since this is basicly a one channel preamp with added drive in red mode, having two modules gives me more options with this awesome module.

Please note that this module does not have the dual switch on the back which means that only the green mode is active on old Randall MTS amps(onless they has the midi mod). If Synergy had been smart they would have made the red mode as default cause with the lead drive turned down you still get great clean sounds.

As an old Triaxis owner (20 years ago) I'm so delighted to once again having access to these type of Mesa tones. I also learned a few things watching last weeks videos and this knowledge has been applayed with my first IICP test.

Best sounding and most fun to play module so far IMO!!


----------



## Kyle Jordan

^Would love to hear it against the Ultimate Nullifier if you still have it.


----------



## Trashgreen

Kyle Jordan said:


> ^Would love to hear it against the Ultimate Nullifier if you still have it.


Yes I still have it, should be interesting, shall see what I can do, but please be patient as it may take a week or two..


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

EDIT: I noticed he never went passed 5 on the treble for the Synergy while he keeps the Mesa at 7, so the Mesa will sound a bit brighter and ganier because of that.


----------



## Kyle Jordan

^I haven’t listened with my headphones yet, but I like the texture and character of the distortion Michael is getting out of the IICP here. A little smoother but not a soft smooth. Like a crisp smooth. Maybe a bit clearer. I’m still hearing more of the later Mark series in the IICP. Something in the highs or upper mids. 

That said, I liked the Triaxis the most in that video. Makes me feel like even more of an idiot for selling mine.


----------



## MatrixClaw

Trashgreen said:


> Please note that this module does not have the dual switch on the back which means that only the green mode is active on old Randall MTS amps(onless they has the midi mod). If Synergy had been smart they would have made the red mode as default cause with the lead drive turned down you still get great clean sounds.


Well, that's disappointing. You can't switch to the red channel at all manually?? I was about to pick up an RM100 on the cheap and this was going to be the first module I bought, but if I have to spend another $200 on the dial channel mod, it's not worth it


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Kyle Jordan said:


> ^I haven’t listened with my headphones yet, but I like the texture and character of the distortion Michael is getting out of the IICP here. A little smoother but not a soft smooth. Like a crisp smooth. Maybe a bit clearer. I’m still hearing more of the later Mark series in the IICP. Something in the highs or upper mids.
> 
> That said, I liked the Triaxis the most in that video. Makes me feel like even more of an idiot for selling mine.



Damn just noticed he did a TriAxis comparison. Checked it and yeah, it smoked both.


----------



## Kyle Jordan

Kyle Jordan said:


> ^I haven’t listened with my headphones yet, but I like the texture and character of the distortion Michael is getting out of the IICP here. A little smoother but not a soft smooth. Like a crisp smooth. Maybe a bit clearer. I’m still hearing more of the later Mark series in the IICP. Something in the highs or upper mids.
> 
> That said, I liked the Triaxis the most in that video. Makes me feel like even more of an idiot for selling mine.



Just listened with my 'phones and I still think the Triaxis has the best tone, especially once he dialed the Treble up a bit more. There is something about the distortion and the sharpness of it in the Triaxis that just works for me. It's not dry, but it's got very little grind or other attributes like that. That always sounds clean and sharp to my ears. 

The IICP sounds a bit focused here. I actually want to say thin, but that comes across as more negative than I'm intending. I think that quality along with less of the "crackliness" in the highs compared to the Studio is why I'm thinking clearer. The Studio is wider and more amp like in Nielsen's clip.


----------



## Emperoff

Meh. I thought it sounded pretty bland. The Studio sounded infinitely better, and the TriAxis (while being more compressed, as it's known to be) it also sounded better.

Not impressed. My TriAxis stays. It just sounds bloody awesome and it needs no boost at all unless playing modern metal (in fact Mark III mode makes for a killer death metal tone).

The TriAxis is also *very* sensitive to tube choices, so you can really fine tune the different channels to taste. Put some NOS glass in there and holy shit it smokes pretty much everything.

Downside is it's a pain in the ass to transport since it's very deep, and not many rack shells accomodate it. The ones that do are obviously heavier, so accounting the poweramp, etc you're already into amp head weight and beyond.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I wasn't a fan of the Studio at all. Sounded too scooped and the bottom end was too wooly. I did notice the IICP didn't sound too much different but that seems to be because he had the treble knob set relatively low, and the Marks don't really shine until you have the treble set ~7 or higher.


----------



## Kyle Jordan

Emperoff said:


> The TriAxis is also *very* sensitive to tube choices, so you can really fine tune the different channels to taste. Put some NOS glass in there and holy shit it smokes pretty much everything.



To lessen the compression just a bit, I used to swap 5751’s across the board in the Triaxis. Still had enough gain for my tastes, but it evened out and had a bit less compression. Not much, but it helped. 

I was playing a bit with my new IRs earlier with Reaxis and have transferred some to my Axe FX. I’ve been doing a lot of experimenting with the Mark IV and IIC+ models that last few days, and tonight I decided to dial up the USA Pre models and it instantly felt like home. 

Not sure why I haven’t really played much beyond a few patches worth with the USA Pres in the Axe, but I plan on correcting that this week. I’m fact, I’m going to only play with Lead 1 Red, Lead 2 Yellow, and Lead 3 Red for the next week. I want to go as deep as I can with those and a handful of IRs. That sharp, clear, not super grindy distortion is here, and I want to perfect it.


----------



## Emperoff

Kyle Jordan said:


> To lessen the compression just a bit, I used to swap 5751’s across the board in the Triaxis. Still had enough gain for my tastes, but it evened out and had a bit less compression. Not much, but it helped



There is a big misconception regarding things like "headroom" or "compression" in tube amps. You won't be improving neither of them by swapping the preamp tubes. Some tubes break up earlier, others are more compressed, etc, but there is not much to do if the amp is designed that way.

With 5751 tubes you will only shorten the gain range by 30%, but compression and headroom will remain the same. Of course at same settings you will have less compression, but only because you will also have less gain.

The TriAxis loves the 5751s at V3 and V5, which is where lower gain is required to not overload the opamps driving the Dynamic Voice and the Recording Outs. V5 also helps to lower the output volume (quite insane, actually) to not overload other rack FX processors (or your eardrums).

Another interesting thing about the TriAxis is that they need to be callibrated. It has a lot of trimpots inside that you can adjust while checking voltages, etc (those little blue boxes you can see at the bottom, there are more under that PCB).







I haven't bothered with mine, TBH (you have to dismantle the whole thing), but if I ever have to get it fixed, I'll get it done.

With all that being said, Cliff knows the TriAxis in and out as he used one for years so the models in the Axe-Fx are spot on. In fact they have the "proper" Mesa EQ instead of the Dynamic Voice thing.


----------



## BurningRome

I have to ask a dumb question and I'm pretty certain I know the answer but want to double check.

Can the Synergy Preamp Modules be connected to an example, a Marshall DSL100 Power amp via the fx loop?

I just want to know if I can run these preamps through my various amps and their fx loop without buying more than just the Preamp Module.

I assume I can't but want help confirming. Thanks!


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

BurningRome said:


> I have to ask a dumb question and I'm pretty certain I know the answer but want to double check.
> 
> Can the Synergy Preamp Modules be connected to an example, a Marshall DSL100 Power amp via the fx loop?
> 
> I just want to know if I can run these preamps through my various amps and their fx loop without buying more than just the Preamp Module.
> 
> I assume I can't but want help confirming. Thanks!



You'd need one of the preamp housings. Either the SYN1 or SYN2. The preamps don't work on their own.


----------



## BurningRome

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> You'd need one of the preamp housings. Either the SYN1 or SYN2. The preamps don't work on their own.


Thanks for reassuring me on that. It's unfortunate.


----------



## odibrom

BurningRome said:


> Thanks for reassuring me on that. It's unfortunate.



The big problem is that the housings aren't cheap, at all. I find the preamps fairly priced, but the housings are unreasonably way up there, imo that is...


----------



## BurningRome

odibrom said:


> The big problem is that the housings aren't cheap, at all. I find the preamps fairly priced, but the housings are unreasonably way up there, imo that is...


Yeah I was thinking the same thing. Perhaps with time Synergy will come up with a more basic enclosure/housing at lower cost.


----------



## crankyrayhanky

Not sure why people are averse to the syn 1 or 2 cost. This thing is running in 4cm and has the option to totally bypass for the host amp tones.... pretty unique for preamps IME and clearly a unit that should cost some $. 

BTW, just picked up a Knucklemod, awesome flavor!


----------



## op1e

Oh man I really wanted a JJ Dirt when my RM100 was working. I'd love to see a shootout between that and the BB/BE.


----------



## crankyrayhanky

op1e said:


> Oh man I really wanted a JJ Dirt when my RM100 was working. I'd love to see a shootout between that and the BB/BE.


That BB BE is one of the few I never played. Sometimes I think I really want to snag one, but not sure if it too redundant
This JJ has a c45 switch & (along with the JBE switch)can really make the mids sing


----------



## odibrom

crankyrayhanky said:


> Not sure why people are averse to the syn 1 or 2 cost. This thing is running in 4cm and has the option to totally bypass for the host amp tones.... pretty unique for preamps IME and clearly a unit that should cost some $.
> 
> BTW, just picked up a Knucklemod, awesome flavor!



1 module + the Syn 1 goes about 1k+ which is still dependent on getting an amp for it. If one is up for the Syn 2, the sum goes up to 1.5k+, again without amp. A 2 unit rack with 2 modules, the Syn2 bay and their Syn5050 poweramp will land at 2.5k which is the price of most big brand heads... I think they could go a bit lower in price, but that's my cheap ass mind taking control of the PC's keyboard... The modules are fairly price in my opinion, the power amp is at the borderline of expensive/accessible, but the bays... way too expensive...


----------



## KnightBrolaire

odibrom said:


> 1 module + the Syn 1 goes about 1k+ which is still dependent on getting an amp for it. If one is up for the Syn 2, the sum goes up to 1.5k+, again without amp. A 2 unit rack with 2 modules, the Syn2 bay and their Syn5050 poweramp will land at 2.5k which is the price of most big brand heads... I think they could go a bit lower in price, but that's my cheap ass mind taking control of the PC's keyboard... The modules are fairly price in my opinion, the power amp is at the borderline of expensive/accessible, but the bays... way too expensive...


But compared to buying multiple amps that the synergy stuff is based off, it's pretty cheap. I can get the same vibes as an SLO and a VH4 without dropping 7k for the amps.


----------



## c7spheres

crankyrayhanky said:


> Not sure why people are averse to the syn 1 or 2 cost. This thing is running in 4cm and has the option to totally bypass for the host amp tones.... pretty unique for preamps IME and clearly a unit that should cost some $.
> 
> BTW, just picked up a Knucklemod, awesome flavor!


 Is that JJ Dirt an a multi channel? I can only find the other one.


----------



## odibrom

KnightBrolaire said:


> But compared to buying multiple amps that the synergy stuff is based off, it's pretty cheap. I can get the same vibes as an SLO and a VH4 without dropping 7k for the amps.



Unquestionably... I just feel that the loading bays are a bit too expensive...


----------



## crankyrayhanky

c7spheres said:


> Is that JJ Dirt an a multi channel? I can only find the other one.


Yes! Bought it from Fig, I assume it was originally an Egnater dual module. I can leave chA "normal" and chB can have the JBE engaged giving more mids. The feel on this module might be the most fun of any, it has a nice squeeze to it




odibrom said:


> Unquestionably... I just feel that the loading bays are a bit too expensive...


So you say the syn 2 + modules + amp is about the same price as amps and you need it to be cheaper? This is without even considering the flexibility of adding in different modules. Agreed, it's not cheap, but once you are in, it is really easy to add a module during every sale once or twice a year for $340...works great for those of us who used to flip amps frequently- that is pricey lol.
If you are a buy one amp and rock it for 8 years kind of player, this system is not for you


----------



## odibrom

crankyrayhanky said:


> Yes! Bought it from Fig, I assume it was originally an Egnater dual module. I can leave chA "normal" and chB can have the JBE engaged giving more mids. The feel on this module might be the most fun of any, it has a nice squeeze to it
> 
> 
> 
> So you say the syn 2 + modules + amp is about the same price as amps and you need it to be cheaper? This is without even considering the flexibility of adding in different modules. Agreed, it's not cheap, but once you are in, it is really easy to add a module during every sale once or twice a year for $340...works great for those of us who used to flip amps frequently- that is pricey lol.
> If you are a buy one amp and rock it for 8 years kind of player, this system is not for you


I'm that kind of player. I've been rocking my Triaxis for 12+ years... almost always on LD2 yellow mode...


----------



## crankyrayhanky

odibrom said:


> I'm that kind of player. I've been rocking my Triaxis for 12+ years... almost always on LD2 yellow mode...


Well if you know what you like it may be better to just grab the real deal; ie Mark JP, Slo 30, etc. 
Thought the synergy versions are right there if coupled with a decent power section


----------



## odibrom

crankyrayhanky said:


> Well if you know what you like it may be better to just grab the real deal; ie Mark JP, Slo 30, etc.
> Thought the synergy versions are right there if coupled with a decent power section



To me, the Triaxis IS the real deal because of the MIDI editing and programming... but I fancy the Synergy's concept. I've been eyeing their Syn 5050 power amp to replace my 2:fifty (I'm thinking in weight relieve on my rack), but there's nowhere to be found, either new or used within the EU... Synergy should work a bit more on their distribution, but Covid fucked up everything...


----------



## c7spheres

I'm still intersted in Synergy. Though I recently heard heavy clip examples on YT that were a bit underwhelming, though I know the guy knows his stuff and mic'd cab's etc. Just thinking maybe it's his style cause everything he does is a bit like that.

- Anyways, I was excited to see a picture of Geore Lynch with Mike Soldano and an announcement is apparently coming tomorrow as to a possible new Lynch Synergy module and possibly a new Lynch Soldano head it says. This might be the tipping point for me being how many cool modules they got now..


----------



## c7spheres

Oh, well. No Synergy for George yet, not even a new tube amp, just this solid state practice amp piece of awesome crap! jk. Just a little let down no Synergy.
- MIke and Geroge say it's got the goods that tubes have but not as good as the real deal obviously, but Geroge goes onto say it's 75% of the way there for 1/20th the price and usable and dynamic like a tube amp. MIke says it's the same cascae gain stages circuit as the big tone stack but using IC's instead. I love that he's finaly coming round to solid state ideas. He'll probably figure out how to do more good with them.


----------



## fantom

I finally picked up a T/DLX... Mini Rant incoming...

I haven't played either of these amps in person.. and I'm a high gain guy, so assume I have zero idea what to expect from vintage amps or cleaner amps like this or an AC.

Synergy, if you read these threads, who in their right mind puts two 3 way toggles labeled "B" and "T" and assumes that a user will not immediately assume they imply some bass and treble shelf? I thought they wired it wrong because the "T" very clearly changed the bass response and the "B" very clearly changed the upper range.

The manual is absolutely useless (as are the other Synergy manuals). Synergy manuals don't really give you any idea about what any switches or knobs do. They don't give some recommendations. They don't even include working contact information for warranty help. They sound more like a high school student writing a sales pitch to capital investment firm.


So after sitting around and contemplating writing an email to support, I remember that the email address in the manual bounces back. And the phone number always goes to voicemail.

And then I looked at pictures of the original amps, and I noticed a "bright" input jack. I thought, wait, what if the "B" means "bright" and rewires the amp to use similar circuit to other jack? Well what is the "T"?

After reading the manual again, there is a small reference to "bright and tight" controls. So ya, the low-end control is a tight control...

This would have been a non-issue if they just wrote clear manuals that assume the user may have never interacted with the amp they just purchased for real. I don't know which controls are pre gain stage, which are active or passive, where the zero position is relative to the unprocessed signal. Maybe I'm a moron, but I've owned enough gear to think you should never label a control on an amp as B, M, T, G or V. Even P is questionable. And if you system is literally designed around modular interchanging where the amp behaves differently, by design, for each module, than you really need to explain the controls to someone who has other modules with different control behaviors.

Am I overreacting here? Not sure..but 30+ minutes of my life thinks not. I'm just glad some YouTube videos are better at explaining how to dial these in.


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## StevenC

fantom said:


> I finally picked up a T/DLX... Mini Rant incoming...
> 
> I haven't played either of these amps in person.. and I'm a high gain guy, so assume I have zero idea what to expect from vintage amps or cleaner amps like this or an AC.
> 
> Synergy, if you read these threads, who in their right mind puts two 3 way toggles labeled "B" and "T" and assumes that a user will not immediately assume they imply some bass and treble shelf? I thought they wired it wrong because the "T" very clearly changed the bass response and the "B" very clearly changed the upper range.
> 
> The manual is absolutely useless (as are the other Synergy manuals). Synergy manuals don't really give you any idea about what any switches or knobs do. They don't give some recommendations. They don't even include working contact information for warranty help. They sound more like a high school student writing a sales pitch to capital investment firm.
> 
> 
> So after sitting around and contemplating writing an email to support, I remember that the email address in the manual bounces back. And the phone number always goes to voicemail.
> 
> And then I looked at pictures of the original amps, and I noticed a "bright" input jack. I thought, wait, what if the "B" means "bright" and rewires the amp to use similar circuit to other jack? Well what is the "T"?
> 
> After reading the manual again, there is a small reference to "bright and tight" controls. So ya, the low-end control is a tight control...
> 
> This would have been a non-issue if they just wrote clear manuals that assume the user may have never interacted with the amp they just purchased for real. I don't know which controls are pre gain stage, which are active or passive, where the zero position is relative to the unprocessed signal. Maybe I'm a moron, but I've owned enough gear to think you should never label a control on an amp as B, M, T, G or V. Even P is questionable. And if you system is literally designed around modular interchanging where the amp behaves differently, by design, for each module, than you really need to explain the controls to someone who has other modules with different control behaviors.
> 
> Am I overreacting here? Not sure..but 30+ minutes of my life thinks not. I'm just glad some YouTube videos are better at explaining how to dial these in.


From the website:

Two three-position Bass response switches
Two three-position Treble response switches


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## ShredmasterD

i have two synergy amps . 30 combo and a 50 watt head. have the t/dlx module, a savage and a herbert . the t/dlx is my clean channel and i love it in the 50 watt head. yes, synergy is worth it. the sound is great. the modules can be hard to read in low light, everything is so small. the sound however is what matters. probably will get another module. 30 combo is loud as hell. shockingly loud like rip your head off loud. if i could do it agian i would get the 30 watt head because that would be all i need really. small and powerful with flexibility.


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## Elric

fantom said:


> I finally picked up a T/DLX... Mini Rant incoming...
> 
> I haven't played either of these amps in person.. and I'm a high gain guy, so assume I have zero idea what to expect from vintage amps or cleaner amps like this or an AC.
> 
> Synergy, if you read these threads, who in their right mind puts two 3 way toggles labeled "B" and "T" and assumes that a user will not immediately assume they imply some bass and treble shelf? I thought they wired it wrong because the "T" very clearly changed the bass response and the "B" very clearly changed the upper range.



Quote cut and pasted directly from the manual PDF:


> To ensure the T/DLX preamp module sounds terrific though your rig, we even included bright and tight switches, which change the tone’s character to nail the sound you’re looking for.



I think that is fairly clear what ‘B‘ and ‘T’ meant but I totally agree with you the module manuals should be MUCH better. They should have a diagram and then explicitly say what every switch and knob does.



fantom said:


> Am I overreacting here? Not sure..but 30+ minutes of my life thinks not. I'm just glad some YouTube videos are better at explaining how to dial these in.


Yes (IMHO). The modules are tiny and they cannot support long labels. The manuals are not perfect but even for stuff that doesn’t go into detail it is pretty easy to hear where you like switches set. I think most people probably do not even reference them and just set them where it sounds good. And like you said a simple YT search will bring up many demos for every module.


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## KnightBrolaire

I think the manuals are fine. I have the SLO, Deliverance and Ultralead modules (had the vh4 as well). The manuals for the deliverance and ultralead explain everything well, and the SLO/VH4 were super straightforward.


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## MetalDaze

I liked that Fryette did a lengthy video on the IICP…how it works and how to dial in different types of tone.

There is a lot of non intuitive stuff going on that would be really difficult to convey in a manual. Of course if you are familiar with the original Mesa, it works like you would expect.


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## MatrixClaw

Just bought a SYN-1 with the BE module as a bundle from Sweetwater to use with my PS-1. Not sure if I'll end up keeping the BE, but I'm definitely interested in the SLO, Ultralead, Savage and IICP.


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## MetalDaze

MatrixClaw said:


> Just bought a SYN-1 with the BE module as a bundle from Sweetwater to use with my PS-1. Not sure if I'll end up keeping the BE, but I'm definitely interested in the SLO, Ultralead, Savage and IICP.


I own all 4 of those. Great choices.


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## MatrixClaw

MetalDaze said:


> I own all 4 of those. Great choices.


I've heard a lot of people dislike the Savage, but that's the one amp I've wanted for years and have still yet to buy. With the rising prices on them lately, I don't know that I'll ever own one, so I'm hoping the module will get me close enough


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## fantom

MatrixClaw said:


> I've heard a lot of people dislike the Savage, but that's the one amp I've wanted for years and have still yet to buy. With the rising prices on them lately, I don't know that I'll ever own one, so I'm hoping the module will get me close enough


The Savage and IICP are my favorite modules so far. Visually, the eq in the Savage needs to be set a little weird. Definitely need to do it with your ears. The knobs will end up pretty far from 12:00


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