# Gain- Live vs Studio



## fps (May 18, 2011)

Here's one that interests me. I always thought you'd go for more gain the studio, less gain live. Or, fewer mids studio more live if you look at, say, the tones of James Hetfield or Dimebag in studio vs on stage, 88-92 and 92-96ish. Went in to start rhythm tracks for my band's demo and found myself turning the gain down, and down, and down, to about 9'clock. We're not, by any means, a metal band. My set-up is pretty metal, Carvin DC727 w/Nailbomb into Randall V2. Still, it was interesting, with less gain the tone had more bite, and at the same time more warmth.

Live I've been using a lot more gain than that. Now I'm thinking that I should totally keep the gain at least 3 notches below where it's been before. Do you think most metal and hard rock guitarists (us amateurs) use waaaay too much gain? Or do you think studio and live are so different it makes little difference what something sounds like in one area compared with the other, that the two are separate entities?


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## Winspear (May 18, 2011)

Most do use far too much gain, yes.

I think live usually requires a little more gain, because you don't have the luxuries of a mix with lots of fine tuned compression etc, and multitracking.


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## SW Davion (May 18, 2011)

Yes, you are right. Live Gain is cranked up. In my case I am in a band that I am the only guitarist.

Studio, usually guitars are dual tracked to increase depth, so lower your gain as you will end up with increased "power" thru the dual guitar tracks..


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## Solodini (May 19, 2011)

Yeah, over the years I've found my gain becoming lower and lower. Halfway is usually pretty high for me. From there onwards you just start to lose definition, I find. Too much gain and chords seem to disappear, as well. You can make things sound as you want easier with less gain: manipulate with chords/harmony and rhythm.


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## SirMyghin (May 19, 2011)

Solodini said:


> Yeah, over the years I've found my gain becoming lower and lower. Halfway is usually pretty high for me. From there onwards you just start to lose definition, I find. Too much gain and chords seem to disappear, as well. You can make things sound as you want easier with less gain: manipulate with chords/harmony and rhythm.



This has been my experience also, the more I play, typically, the less gain I want to use.


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## DomitianX (May 19, 2011)

Less gain during recording for me. Otherwise it gets messy. You also have to remember that most of the time you are close mic'ing the cabinet so you dont have all that air to "clean up" or "mellow out" the sound waves before they get recorded. If you are 6 feet from the cab, you have plenty of time for the wave form to develop and sort of mellow out. Close mic'ng gives your "ear" an up close picture of the sound.


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## rug (May 21, 2011)

Everyone is on the money here. Less gain, more definition. Don't worry if the original track sounds really thin - by the time you double track it (or triple/quad ) the gain will add up and you'll have some nice, fat sounding tracks. You can always add gain later, but you can't get rid of it once it's there.


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## vanhendrix (May 31, 2011)

I'm the same way. I've been steadily backing it off and off. I just recently modded my powerball for less gain in fact.

I also find that after my amp has been on for at least an hour I need to drop the gain down even more. Maybe my toobz just take a really long time to get cookin, but it's a night and day difference from what it sounds like after 20 minutes of being on


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## Solodini (May 31, 2011)

Do you have any clips of your modded powerball?


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## hutchman (May 31, 2011)

I find that less gain adds way more punch, definition and note clarity. Also you can actually HEAR the notes of chords. I have my gain on my Mesa set to about 9-0'clock plus a little from the tube screamer to saturate it a bit. 
I've had people come up to me after a show and say that when I was sound checking they thought I was crazy that I and the other guitarist had so little gain they also thought the guitars didn't sound heavy at all but once the whole band kicked in we sounded huge. 
The thing is you will never have as much punch as the kick drum and never as much fatness as the bass. So why not let them fill those jobs for you instead of trying to fill up all the frequencies yourself. (enter importance of mids). Less gain I find makes the sound guys job a lot easier aswell. I just got off a tour where every band we played with couldn't figure out how come we had a great front of house sound and they sounded like mud. I tell them less gain, more mids. Of course they ignore me and blast the distortion.

It is harder to play with less gain but if you can nail it everyone will hear every note you play. I think this goes for studio and live.


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## RevDrucifer (May 31, 2011)

The less gain ya use, the more apparent you're EQ settings will come out as well, (depending on your amp, but this has held true for 95% of amps I've used). 

A lot of guitarist definitely suffer from too much gain and not knowing how to set an EQ. It's easy to confuse things without experience. You hear killer walls of guitars on an album and with your own amp in your bedroom, the easiest way to get that sound is to crank the gain and bass up.

Lamb Of God is a good example; listen to their first few albums leading up to Wraith. By the time they got to Wraith, the amount of distortion coming from the amps was minimal, it's mostly a well executed right-hand attack. 

And definitely for lead work, the more gain you've got going on, the less dynamics the notes will have and they lose that singing quality.


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## scottro202 (Jun 3, 2011)

THIS is how an amp EQ should look for a guitarist


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## Zeff (Jun 4, 2011)

recording - less gain and multi tracks to fill out or the mix will get muddy
live - more gain

for the post above ^^ you're joking right?


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## scottro202 (Jun 5, 2011)

Zeff said:


> recording - less gain and multi tracks to fill out or the mix will get muddy
> live - more gain
> 
> for the post above ^^ you're joking right?



I'm really not


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## budda (Jun 13, 2011)

I run as little gain as possible for both applications - rock band and metal band.


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## Devyn Eclipse Nav (Jun 13, 2011)

scottro202 said:


> THIS is how an amp EQ should look for a guitarist



Not gonna lie, I just tried this (But with gain set at half) and it sounded great. Not a metal tone, but a great sound nonetheless.


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## budda (Jun 13, 2011)

scottro202 said:


> THIS is how an amp EQ should look for a guitarist



Try that on a mesa, it won't sound the same


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## scottro202 (Jun 13, 2011)

budda said:


> Try that on a mesa, it won't sound the same



 Well, the MOAR MIDZZZZ LESS GAIN principle's all I'm trying to get across


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## Chickenhawk (Jun 13, 2011)

I absolutely use too much gain. I'm aware of this. 

But, I play sludgy stuff most of the time. When recording, I drop my gain a massive amount, and double or triple track the guitars to help thicken up what might be missing on a single track.

Live? I up the gain. I've been the only guitarist in a band. I've been the second guitarist. Hell, I've been a third guitarist for a few live shows, but my gain is always way higher live than in the studio. 

But, I've also been told countless times I use too much gain. One of these days I'll wise up.


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## budda (Jun 13, 2011)

Why not just wise up then 

You can get away with a bit less mids in the studio as well.


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## Deliverowned (Jun 19, 2011)

gain at 6 oclock on my 5150 and about 8 oclock on my vht. I want as less gain as possible on the amp abut im using, in my ultimate setup, pedals that adds gain, od,comp,clean boost,comp so i get massive distortion and clean n natural saturation while keeping clarity and definition. ill drop the gain in the studio but im already on minimal gain settings everywhere so i guess my tone is just crushing in both applications haha


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## Solodini (Jun 20, 2011)

Deliverowned said:


> gain at 6 oclock on my 5150 and about 8 oclock on my vht. I want as less gain as possible on the amp abut im using, in my ultimate setup, pedals that adds gain, od,comp,clean boost,comp so i get massive distortion and clean n natural saturation while keeping clarity and definition. ill drop the gain in the studio but im already on minimal gain settings everywhere so i guess my tone is just crushing in both applications haha



Can we hear this crushing tone, please?


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## Malkav (Jun 20, 2011)

scottro202 said:


> THIS is how an amp EQ should look for a guitarist


 
I looked at this and lol'd immediately, I use a GT-10 and my patches are generally set like that, even for my heavy metal sounds I play an 8 string though so I think that explains the need for such a ridiculous low end cut.

I use the vintage rectifier model cause I think it sounds better than the modern one and my gain almost never goes above 35, even for lead patches, in fact my current favourite lead patch is setup with gain at 25. I also use a parametric to boost 800hz, 1.4Khz and use another EQ on the end of the signal chain to cut a bit of 250hz and raise up the 4Khz a tad (not more than 3db max).

Low gain is the true way to a BrOOtal tone!


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## somniumaeternum (Jun 20, 2011)

It's true that most people use too much gain. It's easy to use it to mask things you don't want in the tone or use it for compression if you're playing leads. Without as much gain, it makes you have to play more spot on I think. 

The main point is that everything really depends on your set up. Mesas are super finicky as was said for example. Solid state rigs will have different properties. Depending on the voicing of the amp and what it was intended to do, it'll handle the distortion differently (for example, an Powerball vs. a Lonestar). 

From my experience a lot of this has to do with how you're obtaining the distortion. I find that on many amps if you push the preamp up front instead of using the gain setting on the amp it'll have more bite and clarity (while the amp tone controls add warmth and the body) It's just a combination of what you're using and what you want to hear. 

For something fairly clear and fluid, like a lead sound, I put everything to 12 0'clock and push the preamp with pedal of choice. I get the smoothness from that. Then I dial in the amp EQ settings (figure out where the flub is in bass, etc.). Then I finally play with the gain control to fill out the sound and not really to get a lot more distortion. (then, of course, fine tune with external EQs and whatever else you have going).

I find that my ear gets fatigued really easily when dealing with a lot of distortion. So if I can I'll usually get a patch I really like going then come back to it the next day. Play along with a CD of your favorite band and you'll notice that their tone is probably like 65% as distorted as yours... so tweak away. I usually have 4 to 5 different versions of the same patch with slightly different settings so I can go back to a previous setting if my ears were fatigued when I do it (i usually get adventurous with tone at around 3 in the morning.. d'oh)


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## Deliverowned (Jun 20, 2011)

somniumaeternum said:


> From my experience a lot of this has to do with how you're obtaining the distortion. I find that on many amps if you push the preamp up front instead of using the gain setting on the amp it'll have more bite and clarity (while the amp tone controls add warmth and the body) It's just a combination of what you're using and what you want to hear.
> )


 
THIS summarize my ppoint of you really well!





Solodini said:


> Can we hear this crushing tone, please?
> )


I'ill put a clip tommorow with each amp panned on a side with fews riffs put togeter.


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## lemonhan (Jun 21, 2011)

I think live usually requires a little more gain, because you don't have the luxuries of a mix with lots of fine tuned compression etc, and multitracking.


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## Bloody_Inferno (Jun 21, 2011)

For me, sometimes little gain is just as bad as too much gain. Depending on the situation, I'd go as high as 6 or even 7 with an OD in front, for metal. For rock, I'd go as low as 2, with or without a boost. 

Same with mids. Too much mids then it turns muffled, not enough and it's thin. I'm like Goldilocks, both have to be just right. 

When a lot of players are using high gain amps, naturally you'd have the gain down.


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## fps (Jun 21, 2011)

Well the last gig I played there was a lot of feedback with gain, so I turned it riiight back, and didn't appreciate it when I had to play some of the b*tch-hard riffs in our track Burn The Red City (namechecking it cos some of our songs are very easy). 
A touch higher next time. Maybe even change it per song!


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## Decipher (Jun 23, 2011)

I also use to be a culprit for using too much gain many, many years ago but since then I'm always turning my gain down. I think on my Rivera it's around 6.5-7. Studio, definitely less and live it'll depend. If I'm really cranking it, I'll turn down the gain as well to compensate for feedback.

Less gain is more in so many ways.


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## Devyn Eclipse Nav (Jul 30, 2011)

I have the gain on my distortion pedal cranked, but my pickups far enough away from the strings that it's not full on distorted. My bridge pick-up is about 1/3 of an inch away from the strings and my neck pickup is just a teeny bit closer (so it can pick up the notes better when I'm sucking at sweeps). Most of my distortion comes from using power chords, and really attacking the strings. I can get quite a range of distortion simply by changing the strength with which pick. I can play the entire breakdown of Electric Red by simply picking differently during the different parts, and maybe some use of the volume knob. And EQ can have a lot to do with gain, too. My standard EQ (Bass & Treble cranked, Mids at 10 O'clock,) sounds a lot more distorted than when I switch to my djent settings (Bass at noon, mids cranked, treble at about 2 O'clock.) So at lot more can determine gain than just how high the gain knob is on your distortion source of choice.


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## wlfers (Jul 31, 2011)

My quick (live) tone finder:

Gain: turn this all the way up. then down till it sounds like you're playing surf music- go up a tiny bit from there.
Bass: bump it till it physically pushes you, then keep it there or down a hair.
Mids: This is where personal taste/amp flavor comes in.....
Treble: Up till your ears bleed, and then down to a point where the crunch/grind and presence reconciles itself with fizz and headaches

mild humor aside, i find it myself doing something along these lines. it's different for every amp so saying "my gain is at x oclock" wouldn't get too much across. 

i've seen quite a few times where live guitarists will sizzle the first few rows of their audience. They set the tone from their standing perspective, not from an ear level/mic lvl and it really makes for a bad sound. I find myself pushing the treble MUCH lower and the gain slightly lower in live settings than practice settings.

but i do agree with the op, i feel live goes well with a little more gain than studio.


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## stevo1 (Jul 31, 2011)

I use less gain in studios than live, because in the studio, you usually multitrack the guitars, which adds perceivable gain to the sound, so if you use too much, itll sound muddy. I use a tad more gain live, because where I play live, like littl clubs and stuff, the keep the guitars split to right and left sides of the mix, so, I have to compensate not being mixed into the other guitarists gain.


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## Dimensionless (Aug 2, 2011)

I ALWAYS ride the "threshold" of just about every knob on my setup.
I like gain, I find the point where it becomes unuseable, and pull it back a notch or two.


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## Andromalia (Aug 2, 2011)

There isn't any unusuable gain, there is just lacking speaker technology.
I was told so by time traveling aliens.


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## brootalboo (Aug 3, 2011)

This thread has been really helpful, I have a studio tone and a live tone that have almost the same amount of gain, but I guess now I'll have to turn it down a bit and see how it turns out after the double track


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## jackfiltraition (Aug 3, 2011)

Great thread!
Do not forget to use your ears people! Sometimes things that don't make sense in theory can be ideal in practice...
Live i tend to push the gain on my 5150 ever so slightly for a number of different reasons but i don't go overboard so the gain ends up just under half way at the most. I also run my screamer pretty "cold" so to speak. Resonance, Depth punch (what ever your amp calls it) can often be over looked culprits of muddying up hi gain guitars in a live setting to but i use my ears (try to sneak a quick peak of the front of house during sound check if possible) and i always have very posotive feedback from other guitarists about the clarity of my hi gain my tones.

In the studio it's a a much bigger story as far as i am concerned. It depends on the infinite variables that can come into play. Are you re-amping? what sound are you going for? are you double tracking or quad tracking? etc. etc. etc.
I do try to back it off in the studio a bit as it all adds up once multi tracking is introduced (I back off even more if i plan to quad track guitar parts) but that being said, If i am re-amping a guitar performance after it has been tracked, I push the gain a bit more then usual as sometimes. If I'm using an isolated tube amp to monitor tone (or even a pod if i have to) i keep the gain down as much as i can because it forces me to work harder with my picking hand, which translates very well at the reamping stage. 

My two cents


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## JoeOsoDopke (Aug 8, 2011)

I think it's funny when guitar noobs playing live wonder why on a recording of them playing all they hear is "KSSSSSHHHHHHHHHH" where there guitar should be hahaha
And generally for my taste, i like to turn the gain down to about halfway or maybe to around 40%, then add an overdrive pedal with the gain on that set at about 25% ish.


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## The Reverend (Aug 8, 2011)

I'm going to sound incredibly stupid, but fuck it, last two weeks, right?

What's the difference between gain and drive?


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## Neogospel (Aug 8, 2011)

I used to run a lot of gain on my amps, but your ear learns to have a very nice and audible tone, so you start getting it lower

When doing live just try to get a tone that is suitable for the people

From time to time I go to gigs and I hate when the amps buzz like hell with all the treble up I feel how my ears are about to bleed lol


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## Solodini (Aug 9, 2011)

The Reverend said:


> I'm going to sound incredibly stupid, but fuck it, last two weeks, right?
> 
> What's the difference between gain and drive?



Gain is used on interfaces and things, as well, just to describe input level. You can use gain to increase volume but subtly enough so as to not distort. On mixing desks and such you're generally trying to avoid distortion so as to accurately represent the sounds of the instruments onstage.


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## budda (Aug 10, 2011)

The Reverend said:


> I'm going to sound incredibly stupid, but fuck it, last two weeks, right?
> 
> What's the difference between gain and drive?



I think most guitarists use the terms interchangeably, even though they probably have different definitions.


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## 7 Dying Trees (Aug 11, 2011)

Use as much AND as little gain as you can get away with. Too little and you end up fighting the amp live, too much and it's a mess. I dial in slightly more than i would for recording, always use a tubescreamer and that's pretty much it really. EQ wise I want clarity, so I'll go for a more thrashy sound with some weight behind it. If the bass is muddy cut back, cut back treble so it cuts but doesn't sound like a bunch of girls who've just seen justin bieber, mids, always set above halfway for cut in the band mix. What you hear on your own is not always suitable when placed in a band mix. Bass and treble are more likely to get lost than mids, and will compete with cymbals, kicks and bass guitar, so leave them space.

Pretty much it really 

Oh, and a good solid pick attack helps too.


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## fps (Aug 11, 2011)

7 Dying Trees said:


> Use as much AND as little gain as you can get away with. Too little and you end up fighting the amp live, too much and it's a mess. I dial in slightly more than i would for recording, always use a tubescreamer and that's pretty much it really. EQ wise I want clarity, so I'll go for a more thrashy sound with some weight behind it. If the bass is muddy cut back, cut back treble so it cuts but doesn't sound like a bunch of girls who've just seen justin bieber, mids, always set above halfway for cut in the band mix. What you hear on your own is not always suitable when placed in a band mix. Bass and treble are more likely to get lost than mids, and will compete with cymbals, kicks and bass guitar, so leave them space.
> 
> Pretty much it really
> 
> Oh, and a good solid pick attack helps too.



Can you tell me a bit about the tubescreamer? As I understand it a lotta people put it in front of their distortion on minimal gain and it just tightens up the sound, I assume by filtering out some frequencies? And +1 on pick attack, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwHAxjmIv6o there's some good stuff from Devin about that there.


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