# Speed picking - what do you do with your other three fingers?



## Hollowway (Jun 19, 2011)

About 2-3 years ago I scrapped my picking technique (mostly coming from my fingers) and forced myself to learn to pick with my wrist. I've been picking since then with an open hand (although trying to keep the fingers relaxed). Now I'm reading a bunch of articles on this, and a lot are saying that an open hand (not splayed open, just relaxed open, and with fingers resting on the guitar or pup) is poor form. And I'm also seeing a lot about oscillation vs rotation (which I can't understand from the descriptions).

So here's the question: Where do you guys put your other three fingers (i.e. are you closed fingered or open) and do you think you're a fast player, or have you changed your technique to improve your speed.

(I know that some are going to say technique doesn't matter, just practice practice practice, but I also know that Tiger Woods, Roger Federer, etc. are trained precisely to get from really good to excellent. So there has to be a proper technique I could adopt.)


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## Tree (Jun 19, 2011)

Depending on the scale run, or whatever it is that I'm doing at the time, I tend to anchor my pinky down by the bridge pickup. Or if I'm not going to be using the highest string I sometimes wrap a portion of my pinky around the high string.
I don't know if that's considered improper, but it works for me most of the time


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## Hollowway (Jun 20, 2011)

Tree said:


> Depending on the scale run, or whatever it is that I'm doing at the time, I tend to anchor my pinky down by the bridge pickup. Or if I'm not going to be using the highest string I sometimes wrap a portion of my pinky around the high string.
> I don't know if that's considered improper, but it works for me most of the time



Yeah, that's what I do. But I've heard that the finger on the guitar restricts wrist movement. There's so much hearsay, though, on what improper technique that I don't know if I'd actually improve if I curled my fingers in.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jun 20, 2011)

What you described is anchoring. A lot of people say its bad. I don't do it personally, because I can't play nearly as fast when I do. 

That being said I know a TON of good guitarists that anchor. Take for example one of the guys from Archspire.


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## Hollowway (Jun 20, 2011)

Stealthtastic said:


> What you described is anchoring. A lot of people say its bad. I don't do it personally, because I can't play nearly as fast when I do.



And do you close your fingers in? I've been trying that today, with no anchoring, and I think I could get used to that. I just keel my palm on the strings lower than the one I'm picking (for stability).


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## Dayn (Jun 20, 2011)

I can't remember the last time I anchored. When I generally go for all out speed, I keep my fist closed nowadays, though I never used to. That's because my big hand always gradually bumps the volume knob to '0'. Extending my other fingers I find gives me more control and I can hybrid pick that way, but if I close my hand in a very limp way, I have less tension in my hand and its centre of gravity is closer to the centre. That way it's much easier to control when going fast, and I won't have extended fingers throwing off my hand's balance.

The best analogy I can think of is to grab a pencil and rotate it in your fingers. It's easier if the pencil is balanced with your fingers in the middle; adding a weight to one end (your extended fingers) will throw off the balance. That's been my experience, anyway.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jun 20, 2011)

Hollowway said:


> And do you close your fingers in? I've been trying that today, with no anchoring, and I think I could get used to that. I just keel my palm on the strings lower than the one I'm picking (for stability).



Yeah I do, I keep them semi closed. Tension free and completely relaxed.


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## TRENCHLORD (Jun 20, 2011)

Like Stealth said, "tension free and relaxed" is the key. I personally leave my off fingers dangling down sometimes, and other times curl them up a bit, but either way staying loose and relaxed. It kinda depends on which strings your t-pic'n, and wheather or not you have knobs or switches close, which I hate.


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## Hollowway (Jun 20, 2011)

TRENCHLORD said:


> Like Stealth said, "tension free and relaxed" is the key. I personally leave my off fingers dangling down sometimes, and other times curl them up a bit, but either way staying loose and relaxed. It kinda depends on which strings your t-pic'n, and wheather or not you have knobs or switches close, which I hate.



Yeah, I think I know what you guys are saying about anchoring. I'm not actually holding my fingers in a particular place on the guitar as much as dangling them (like you said). My sense is that it probably doesn't make any difference if they're dangling or curved, provided you have a light grip. Somewhere on here was a video of a guy saying that if you don't curl your other fingers up the first finger gets pushed by the thumb toward the pinky side of the hand, and that's not good. But I don't think I'm really doing that. Still, I want to make sure I have the best possible technique so I'm not practicing and developing muscle memory for a crappy grip, etc.


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## Malkav (Jun 20, 2011)

John Petrucci anchors and he's a monster so it can't all be a bad thing


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## Sephael (Jun 20, 2011)

I _think_ I palm mute better with my 3 fingers out and seem to be able to up pick more fluidly, however nearly cutting my right thumb off means I often have to change how I'm holding my pick because of aches and cramps.


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## Solodini (Jun 20, 2011)

Thumb and finger forming a cross, the others out and relaxed. I feel that, even if I try to relax, there's unnecessary tension which carries up to my wrist if I ball up my hand. I like to keep the fingers free for hybrid picking and tapping, as well. Don't wanna be accidentally flicking the string.

No anchoring for me, either. I used to anchor but made a conscious effort to free myself so I wouldn't be inhibited if what I was playing required my other fingers to pick/tap. I feel much more versatile that way.


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## Overtone (Jun 20, 2011)

Closed, but I don't go for speed.


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## jymellis (Jun 20, 2011)

i dont think about it. i noticed when i think i mess up.i try and let my hand/fingers do what feels more natural to me.


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## Maniacal (Jun 20, 2011)

Open so I can tap/chicken pick/palm mute


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## MJS (Jun 20, 2011)

I'd just focus on what feels most comfortable to you. Everything that gets called a bad habit can usually be seen in action by some of the best pickers out there. A lot of them anchor, hold their hand in different positions, angle the pick in different directions, etc...

MAB, Shawn Lane & Marty Friedman come to mind... I don't think I could play Twinkle Twinkle Little Star with their right hand technique, yet it seems to work just fine for them. 

I generally keep my hand closed very loosely. I have noticed that I grip the pick slightly different if I'm using a Jazz III or a Jazz III XL. With the XL (or other big picks), I sometimes seem to roll my finger a little to the side... kinda like how Paul Gilbert does, but not that much.


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## SirMyghin (Jun 20, 2011)

I am more accurate with a lightly closed fist, and I can chicken pick readily from there, chording though it usually opens a bit more (wrist is slightly more flexible). Playing closed is a bit uncomfortable at first, until you learn to relax in that position.


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## Blake1970 (Jun 20, 2011)

I like to make a loose fist.


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## celticelk (Jun 20, 2011)

Malkav said:


> John Petrucci anchors and he's a monster so it can't all be a bad thing



Ditto Wes Montgomery, who actually *wore a hole* in the top of his L5 due to his anchored technique. (Wes played with his thumb, and his technique involved a "pinch" motion with his thumb and the anchored first/second fingers.)

Personally, I play with an open hand and tend to anchor my pinky on the body alongside my bridge pickup - except when I'm fingerpicking, in which case the hand is off the guitar but in the same general position. When playing on the treble strings, I tend to rest the meat of my palm against the bass side of the bridge pickup area, which is a problem with a bridge open humbucker on LP guitars, where the coil is raised up out of the rout, as I inevitably end up rubbing against the fabric wrapping around the coils.


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## EcoliUVA (Jun 20, 2011)

"No tension, relaxed" is key as stated many times.

I keep my hand open, though, for muting but NOT NOT NOT anchoring (did I mention, not anchoring?). I use my free fingers to gently mute the upper strings while in lower registers. When playing on the upper strings, they rest slightly curled and completely relaxed (unless I get carried away) just above the high E.

It is EXTREMELY easy to be unaware of excess tension like this, and it took me months to be completely rid of it...just like any other minor adjustments you'll need to make as you keep increasing speed. If you try this and start noticing tenderness around the elbow in your picking hand arm after several days of extensive practice, you've probably got some tension to work out. Pay close attention and really focus on that picking hand, and you'll work it out. Play fast for a few seconds, then stop and analyze what happened. Repeat ad nauseum until you can do it without tension!


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## Hollowway (Jun 25, 2011)

Thanks guys. No what about the wrist motion? In that article they talk about oscillation vs rotation but I have no idea what the heck they're talking about. For short bursts of tremolo picking I can still go faster picking from my elbow, but I want to get rid of that, so
I'm working on my overall speed. But, I want to make sure I practice with a good technique.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jun 25, 2011)

Hollowway said:


> Thanks guys. No what about the wrist motion? In that article they talk about oscillation vs rotation but I have no idea what the heck they're talking about. For short bursts of tremolo picking I can still go faster picking from my elbow, but I want to get rid of that, so
> I'm working on my overall speed. But, I want to make sure I practice with a good technique.



Just pick from your wrist by moving your hand back and forth not by rotating. I too am trying to get to the point where I can trem pick just from my wrist but I'm still using my elbow and then switching out to my wrist for other parts, which isn't acceptable. If it helps at all I noticed a lot of faster guitarists with the truely freakish alt picking (Shawn Lane) use their wrist to pick.


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## Hollowway (Jun 25, 2011)

Stealthtastic said:


> Just pick from your wrist by moving your hand back and forth not by rotating. I too am trying to get to the point where I can trem pick just from my wrist but I'm still using my elbow and then switching out to my wrist for other parts, which isn't acceptable. If it helps at all I noticed a lot of faster guitarists with the truely freakish alt picking (Shawn Lane) use their wrist to pick.



Ok, but back and forth how? I move my wrist up and down, so it moves
In the direction of my thumb, then the direction of my pinky, and back and forth like that. I have no idea what they mean about rotating the wrist because that moves the pick in an arc away from the strings, so it would seem like that would be impossible to pick that way anyway.


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## Wookieslayer (Jun 25, 2011)

would Paul Ryan's speed picking, be more a rotation? He seems to lift his wrist in the insane speed riffs of Origin...


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## SirMyghin (Jun 25, 2011)

Stealthtastic said:


> Just pick from your wrist by moving your hand back and forth not by rotating. I too am trying to get to the point where I can trem pick just from my wrist but I'm still using my elbow and then switching out to my wrist for other parts, which isn't acceptable. If it helps at all I noticed a lot of faster guitarists with the truely freakish alt picking (Shawn Lane) use their wrist to pick.



I don't see any issue with rotation, pretty sure I use it to some extent, hard to tell without a guitar in my hand though. Both moving the wrist up and down (left and right) and oscillation are both strictly wrist movements. I don't pick from my elbow in the least however. I'l figure out exactly what I am doing next time a guitar is in my hand. Rotation is easily a more natural movement for your wrist too.


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## Kr1zalid (Jun 26, 2011)

Malkav said:


> John Petrucci anchors and he's a monster so it can't all be a bad thing


 
He stated in his forums that he rests his pinky around the pickup (I forgot which....), he uses his wrist to "pick" while using his arm to adjust the height of his "picking level", which kinda suits me.Oh, the article is here: Right hand picking questions

And to the OP, that "rotation" movement is like "twisting" the arm? Speed picking needs lots of practice with the same picking technique I think... I too read few articles and asked for few guitarists on their advice on the right-hand but I can say that it's all personal preference, some pick better without anchor and others don't... And I read somewhere that you can actually use your elbow movement to pick...


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## dbuk01 (Jun 30, 2011)

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, that's what I do. But I've heard that the finger on the guitar restricts wrist movement. There's so much hearsay, though, on what improper technique that I don't know if I'd actually improve if I curled my fingers in.



If you are anchoring your pinky on the body of the guitar properly then it won't restrict you, this needs to be completely relaxed in a way where it may actually move slightly on the body of the guitar and do not tense/bend that finger outwards as that will create a lot of tension in the rest of your hand.

Basically pick from the wrist, anchor pinky, keep hand relaxed and loose, I have my other fingers relaxed apart from when playing syncopated rhythmic stuff on my 7/8 a lot of the time I find this leads to string noise so will have my hand loosely 'clenched' although that word isn't the best to use as it indicates tension but you get what I mean.

Dan


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## Cadavuh (Jun 30, 2011)

Hollowway said:


> (I know that some are going to say technique doesn't matter, just practice practice practice, but I also know that Tiger Woods, Roger Federer, etc. are trained precisely to get from really good to excellent. So there has to be a proper technique I could adopt.)



The thing is, there really isn't. This is playing guitar, not golf. Your making a categorical error, drawing correlations that don't really exist. For example, Michael Angelo Batio, who picks using his fingers, has attained speed and precision unmatched by the majority of guitar players who practice speed picking. Another, more extreme case, would be Rusty Cooley. He uses his forearm. Even the great JP anchors. I would suggest that if you pick the way you are most comfortable picking and work on releasing tension, as has been suggested, you will be completely fine. If you are really concerned with developing your speed, you would be asking questions regarding organization of a practice routine or perhaps building new, more challenging licks to practice, instead of worrying about these trivial details.


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## Konfyouzd (Jun 30, 2011)

I hold them straight out like I'm karate chopping the air so it stays out of my picking hand's way...  

Plus it's the only way I've found that I can hold my hand that's comfortable and doesn't get in the way.


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## SirMyghin (Jul 1, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> I hold them straight out like I'm karate chopping the air so it stays out of my picking hand's way...
> 
> Plus it's the only way I've found that I can hold my hand that's comfortable and doesn't get in the way.



Should get a Herman Li sig then you can have Kung Fu Grip and Karate Chop!


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 1, 2011)

I like the way this guy thinks... Seriously, though... I actually do kind of like that guitar. If it came in a 7 or 8...


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## Solodini (Jul 1, 2011)

Cadavuh said:


> The thing is, there really isn't. This is playing guitar, not golf. Your making a categorical error, drawing correlations that don't really exist. For example, Michael Angelo Batio, who picks using his fingers, has attained speed and precision unmatched by the majority of guitar players who practice speed picking. Another, more extreme case, would be Rusty Cooley. He uses his forearm. Even the great JP anchors. I would suggest that if you pick the way you are most comfortable picking and work on releasing tension, as has been suggested, you will be completely fine. If you are really concerned with developing your speed, you would be asking questions regarding organization of a practice routine or perhaps building new, more challenging licks to practice, instead of worrying about these trivial details.



I disagree. They're both mechanical processes and any mechanical object has ways in which it works best. People are all different, granted, so I agree that comfort is important but I think people like Rusty Cooley have achieved their speed in spite of their technique, rather than thanks to it. I'd agree that different picking methods have their benefits such as the orientation of your location by anchoring et c but I think there will always be optimal mechanical approaches. Organisation of practise routines and searching for the right challenges are important but it's definitely important to find out what's good for you so you don't do something which feels like the lesser of many evils initially but ruins your hands and leaves you unable to do what you love.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 1, 2011)

^ I don't think that's what he means. I think he means that no matter how you hold the pick it's possible to achieve greater speed so long as you're proficient with the technique you choose.


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## Solodini (Jul 1, 2011)

Yeah, that's true. I think certain methods will hold you back more than others, though. It's possible to get fast with anything but it'll obviously be easier to become faster with a more fluid method. In saying that, it is always good to be able to do things the difficult way as then the easier methods will seem even easier.


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## Cadavuh (Jul 1, 2011)

K hit the boob on the nipple. You misinterpreted what I suggested.


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## Hollowway (Jul 1, 2011)

Cadavuh said:


> K hit the boob on the nipple. You misinterpreted what I suggested.



I'm gonna have to agree with Solodini on this. There is just no way I can choose some technique and practice really hard and expect to get as fast as possible. I did that with anchoring and picking with by moving my fingers (not wrist) for well over a decade and when I switched to wrist picking I got better within 6 months. I don't think technique is trivial. I used to have a teacher that said practice doesn't make perfect. It makes permanent. You need the correct technique to get it perfect. That being said, I am aware that a good practice routine will build speed, but I want to make sure I'm committing the proper form to muscle memory so I don't make the same mistake twice.

Also, it sounds like most of the people being mentioned aren't really anchoring in the sense that the hand isn't anchored, and is instead moving. Ie the pinky is just resting there, but freely moving as the hand moves. 

Anyway, I appreciate all the input from everyone. I have noticed that with a lightly closed fist my wrist motion is pretty strict (in a good way) but when I keep my fingers open I still sometimes resort to moving my thumb and index finger instead of locking them down. And with a closed fist technique I keep my picking hand at the same angle regardless of what strig I'm on. But with an open hand I tend to change the angle to avoid hitting the volume knob, etc. Not sure which way I'm going to choose to hnker down and practice yet (since the closed fist is a new thing).


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## Santuzzo (Jul 2, 2011)

This topic reminds me of a thread I read on Vinnie Moore's forum when someone asked Vinnie if he was picking from the wrist or the elbow, and which was better, etc.
Vinnie Moore's answer was quite simple : "Whatever works, man!"
I fully agree with that.
It still makes sense to experiment and try different ways of picking, and holding the pick, etc in order to find out what works best.


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## Maniacal (Jul 2, 2011)

Exactly, I get so many people ask me how to pick. Its really just a case of working on it and letting your body find the best way for you. As long as you are really focusing on every movement you make when you practice, you will naturally adjust in time. 

All the hours spent on forums looking for "the way" could be spent actually practicing. 

Also, there are loads of fast pickers and they play differently.... doesn't that tell you something? The legend that claimed a magical picking technique could be found on a forum deep within the realms of the Internet is a false prophecy.


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## Cadavuh (Jul 2, 2011)

Maniacal said:


> Exactly, I get so many people ask me how to pick. Its really just a case of working on it and letting your body find the best way for you. As long as you are really focusing on every movement you make when you practice, you will naturally adjust in time.
> 
> All the hours spent on forums looking for "the way" could be spent actually practicing.
> 
> Also, there are loads of fast pickers and they play differently.... doesn't that tell you something? The legend that claimed a magical picking technique could be found on a forum deep within the realms of the Internet is a false prophecy.



You see, OP. The best response from the most appropriate forum member.


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## Hollowway (Jul 2, 2011)

Maniacal said:


> Also, there are loads of fast pickers and they play differently.... doesn't that tell you something?



True, but what they do differently is a smaller list than what they do similarly. For instance, economizing movement, oscillating the wrist, relaxing the hand, all of those things are generally agreed on. My goal was to find out what other people did that could pick fast so I could learn from it and see if it was something that worked for me, rather than continue along blindly.


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