# Why has Periphery had more commercial success than Monuments/Tesseract/Etc?



## Taylord (Feb 18, 2021)

It seems like they have way more gear endorsements and headlining tours. Do you think living in the US makes an impact, having more social media/forum presence, just the fact that they were the first to officially release an album? Just a thought I had...


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## wankerness (Feb 18, 2021)

Their music has much catchier choruses.


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## Necky379 (Feb 18, 2021)

The kids like them


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## Albake21 (Feb 18, 2021)

I was just thinking about this the other day. The thing with Periphery is just how much of a power house they were and still are. Every member brings something that is so unique to the band that no other band in the genre has done. Misha obviously pioneered a lot with the genre in general and all of his bulb demos which blew up at the time. Jake brought not only his really well guitar playing, but he's the one responsible for all of the ambient/electronic music and transitions you hear on their records. Then you have Mark which.... well I don't think I need to explain Mark. The dude is unreal and brought a very specific writing style that no one was doing at the time. His riffs can be pointed out very easily. Then you have Nolly (obviously not in the band anymore, but still does their mixing/mastering and records bass) but he's an absolute tone genius. That dude has so much knowledge on modern metal tone, it's insane. Add in Matt's very unique drumming and play style which is attractive to both drummers and guitar players. Then you have Spencer's very unique, yet hit or miss for many, vocals and you get basically a super band that no other band in the genre can compete with. I'm not saying Periphery is the best sounding band in the genre, but damn if that's not a powerhouse of a team, then I don't know what it.

Oh and I'll throw in Jeff Holcomb for making amazing video content of the band throughout the years.


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## nickgray (Feb 18, 2021)

Periphery's music leans more towards the more "traditional" prog metal. Could be in part due to that. Their music has a decent amount of variety in it as well, they don't overdo that stereotypical djent sound. I would also add that Periphery has some seriously good riffs and melodies, and just plain good songwriting in general. I don't even view them as a djent band, they're a prog metal band to me, and are closer to bands like Dream Theater and Pain of Salvation than to Tesseract or Vildhjarta or whatever.


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## slan (Feb 18, 2021)

Similar to what Albake21 said, I think they did (and continue to do) a great job of creating a strong brand from the get-go, both as a band as a whole and as individuals. Not only are they monster musicians, but they're extremely business savvy, and they have been since their early days.


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 18, 2021)

Vildjharta hasn't put out a record in 5 years and they were blatant meshuggah clones.

After The Burial was at the forefront of the djent scene but losing Justin completely derailed them.

Tesseract basically lost all momentum after their first album imo and their subsequent ones really didn't diversify their sound at all. Still, if endorsements are the metric we're using then they did well.

Monuments did blow up and both Olly/ John had/have a bunch of endorsements. So by that metric they've succeeded as well.

Periphery was both in the right place at the right time, and they consistently delivered musically diverse kickass songs. And I say that as a very fairweather fan of their music.


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## InfinityCollision (Feb 18, 2021)

Marketing/social media presence, got in early and built a solid base to expand on.

I don't listen to Periphery, but I could instantly name at least three people associated with the band. I have no idea who's in Tesseract or Monuments.


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## Wucan (Feb 18, 2021)

slan said:


> Similar to what Albake21 said, I think they did (and continue to do) a great job of creating a strong brand from the get-go, both as a band as a whole and as individuals. Not only are they monster musicians, but they're extremely business savvy, and they have been since their early days.



Yep. Misha's face is everywhere and most of the others have prominent products attached to them (like Mark's PRS or Nolly's amp sims). They're hard to miss if you have even the slightest inclination towards metal, whether as a fan or musician.


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## mastapimp (Feb 18, 2021)

I wouldn't say I'm a big periphery fan and listen to djent in small doses, but I've never even heard anything from those other bands you mentioned.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 18, 2021)

slan said:


> Similar to what Albake21 said, I think they did (and continue to do) a great job of creating a strong brand from the get-go, both as a band as a whole and as individuals. Not only are they monster musicians, but they're extremely business savvy, and they have been since their early days.



Misha's dad is apparently a business type, so I'm not surprised to see that rubbed off on him.

But yeah, the band did everything right. Didn't come off as a ripoff of any band, and spearheaded a movement. Kept that momentum going. Kept a strong online presence. And as someone said before; each member brought in their own style to make their music sound pretty expansive. They even released an EP to show this.


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## iamaom (Feb 18, 2021)

I'm not exactly sure why, but I've also notice A LOT more women and minorities at their concerts compared to other metal bands, which increases media reach and marketability exponentially.

I'd also like to add that Periphery has a strong connection with AAL, if you like one you've 100% heard of the other. They tour a lot together, helping pool any fans that don't like both into a single concert which boosts ticket and merch sales.


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## coreysMonster (Feb 18, 2021)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Vildjharta hasn't put out a record in 5 years and they were blatant meshuggah clones.


I think you're thinking of Uneven Structure, their first EP was a straight Meshuggah clone. Vildhjarta has a completely different sound from Meshuggah (among "djent" bands, I mean).


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## SamSam (Feb 18, 2021)

Better songwriting makes them an easier product to sell.


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## soul_lip_mike (Feb 18, 2021)

Albake21 said:


> Then you have Mark which.... well I don't think I need to explain Mark. The dude is unreal and brought a very specific writing style that no one was doing at the time.



Yep, Mark riff is always the sliding and dissonant open strings a semitone off from the note you slid to. It's pretty cool how you can identify which riff is a Mark riff in any Peripheral song.


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 18, 2021)

coreysMonster said:


> I think you're thinking of Uneven Structure, their first EP was a straight Meshuggah clone. Vildhjarta has a completely different sound from Meshuggah (among "djent" bands, I mean).


No I was definitely thinking of Vildhjarta. Their early stuff was blatantly Meshuggah esque, moreso than anyone else in the djent scene at that time.


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## Masoo2 (Feb 18, 2021)

nickgray said:


> Periphery's music leans more towards the more "traditional" prog metal. Could be in part due to that. Their music has a decent amount of variety in it as well, they don't overdo that stereotypical djent sound. I would also add that Periphery has some seriously good riffs and melodies, and just plain good songwriting in general. I don't even view them as a djent band, they're a prog metal band to me, and are closer to bands like Dream Theater and Pain of Salvation than to Tesseract or Vildhjarta or whatever.


I think I'd actually disagree with this. Part of what attracted me to Periphery in the first place was how accessible their earlier sound (P1 going right into P2) was to someone coming from a metalcore and heavy metal background. It was fairly straight forward, heavy, had great production, had really interesting riffs, but most importantly sounded "fresh" to someone who wasn't incredibly deep in the metal genre at the time. Conversely, I also tried listening to a lot of the prog standards at the time (notably Dream Theater) and couldn't stand them at all, their sound was just too dated and "forced" for my tastes.

TesseracT, Monuments, Vildhjarta, Uneven Structure, etc who all came up around the same time did not share the same metalcore/simpler elements found in Periphery's music, and as such were less accessible to a wider audience imo. Of course, to someone like myself, stumbling upon videos of Concealing Fate Pt.1 in the studio, Doxa full band playthrough, or "VILDHjARTA - Thall 1" completely blew me away, but that's because I was in the exploratory phase where my tastes were actively changing.

Echoing the business-minded and member comments, you see Periphery dudes EVERYWHERE with their different business ventures and YouTube happenings. Even back before Juggernaut when they started to really get big, new stuff was coming out from them weekly in the form of videos, guest columns, NGDs on forums like this, etc.

Every member brought their own unique sound. For example, Jake's electronic/clean interludes and Mark's general awesomeness is what made me stay interested in Periphery with the release of P2 and Clear, alongside diving deep into their side projects (Haunted Shores and Isometric <3). With Monuments, TesseracT, Vildhjarta, US, etc you don't really find that to be the case until very recently with Olly's ventures. That being said, the past few years have proven really well for these bands, they've pushed far larger numbers than they ever did before. TesseracT especially has a very wide audience, and Uneven Structure with Aure's production is just fantastic stuff.

edit: also tbh I never saw any of these bands as Meshuggah clones, even after getting acquainted with Meshuggah and becoming a pretty big band. They all did stuff differently with their own spin on the same core sound. Periphery added core elements and vocal hooks, Uneven Structure doubled down on the ambient elements, TesseracT went ambient/groovy, Vildhjarta spawned the whole thall movement which has been taken up by a few bands since, while Monuments sort of combined vocal hooks of Periphery with the same Milton Cleans and groovy Browne/Acle developed in Fellsilent.


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## coreysMonster (Feb 18, 2021)

KnightBrolaire said:


> No I was definitely thinking of Vildhjarta. Their early stuff was blatantly Meshuggah esque, moreso than anyone else in the djent scene at that time.


Ah that's fair, I only really know their post-Masstaden stuff, but yeah with Uneven Structure I also thought "man this is a blatant Meshuggah ripoff" when I heard their very first "8" EP. Guess most bands started out blatantly ripping off until they found their own sound.
Misha's stuff sounded very unique at a time when a lot of the other guys were still figuring it out.


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## Lorcan Ward (Feb 18, 2021)

Better songwriting and adapting so well to the modern music world. The first album carved them a niche in the music scene but it was the second album where they exploded and developed a big audience which they’ve kept. IMO the majority of Djent/prog really lacks in songwriting, more so than almost any other metal sub genre which doesn’t pull audiences back to check out newer albums. With 3 songwriters pooling their ideas together with the intent of writing vocal driven songs rather than solely guitar driven compositions it’s no wonder Periphery are way ahead of all their peers. 

it doesn’t help that the genre became oversaturated quickly with so many Periphery clones and went from being a fresh sound to a fatigued and repetitive one quickly. That happens with every genre but because of the internet it was accelerated.


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## budda (Feb 18, 2021)

Getting started on SSO.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Feb 18, 2021)

Misha. It's because of Misha.
I love all the other dudes, but Misha is one driven MF. He is _*always*_ doing something, and that generates a lot of interest. Face time is _*super*_ important. The whole band has a very social-media friendly style personality and the way that they shitpost makes you feel like you're part of the group. That works wonders for the numbers.

Of course, it also helps that as @Wucan said, the gear that they've attached their name to is actually....pretty solid- and they were savvy enough to land large-scale, major company endorsements early on due to how well known they were almost immediately due to all of the attention the early demos got.

I mean you compare Jackson / PRS / Ibanez to any other set of endorsements out there- how are you going to move more product?
Monuments had Mayones / Aristides on board, who make excellent equipment, but those are $3000 guitars. Your local music store will never have one on the wall.
When you think AxeFX, who do you think of? Right as modeling took off like a damn rocket ship.
They sling guitars, they sling basses, they sling pedals, they sling amps, they sling plugins, they started how many companies?


It was the right dudes, in the right place, at the right time, who knew all the right people and were prepared to make the push.


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## SamSam (Feb 18, 2021)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> Misha. It's because of Misha.
> I love all the other dudes, but Misha is one driven MF. He is _*always*_ doing something, and that generates a lot of interest. Face time is _*super*_ important. The whole band has a very social-media friendly style personality and the way that they shitpost makes you feel like you're part of the group. That works wonders for the numbers.
> 
> Of course, it also helps that as @Wucan said, the gear that they've attached their name to is actually....pretty solid- and they were savvy enough to land large-scale, major company endorsements early on due to how well known they were almost immediately due to all of the attention the early demos got.
> ...



The average music listener doesn't give a fuck about what gear these guys are using. They aren't browsing music going "Oh man, he's got a Jackson this band must be good!".

The endorsements they have now are as a result of their commercial success. The people putting them into the charts are not gearheads. This forum has just over 86k members, Marigold has over 12 million listens on Spotify. That's not because of us. They started off building a following here, but their reach went far beyond the forum. Back then they had deals with the smaller companies as well. The big deals came later on.

Remember Corelia? They had Music Man endorsements very early on due to online presence. Didn't get them far. Back then loads of bands were getting swooped up for some decent and some not so decent deals, but those deals don't put you in the charts.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Feb 18, 2021)

SamSam said:


> The average music listener doesn't give a fuck about what gear these guys are using. They aren't browsing music going "Oh man, he's got a Jackson this band must be good!".
> 
> The endorsements they have now are as a result of their commercial success. The people putting them into the charts are not gearheads. This forum has just over 86k members, Marigold has over 12 million listens on Spotify. That's not because of us. They started off building a following here, but their reach went far beyond the forum. Back then they had deals with the smaller companies as well. The big deals came later on.
> 
> Remember Corelia? They had Music Man endorsements very early on due to online presence. Didn't get them far. Back then loads of bands were getting swooped up for some decent and some not so decent deals, but those deals don't put you in the charts.



I think we interpreted the question differently.
I group 'financial success' under the umbrella of 'commercial success,' I'm not saying their endorsements drove their music. I'm saying their endorsements made them money.

And their larger endorsements, relatively speaking, came together pretty early on in their career. They had a ton of momentum right out of the gate. I remember the earlier (and questionable) deals they had too.


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## nickgray (Feb 18, 2021)

SamSam said:


> This forum has just over 86k members, Marigold has over 12 million listens on Spotify



Well, that's 2,400,000 every year for 5 years. Every forum member just had to listen to the song only 2-3 times every month. Entirely reasonable. Misha owes us a debt of gratitude, I should think


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## VGK17 (Feb 18, 2021)

SamSam said:


> The average music listener doesn't give a fuck about what gear these guys are using.



I'm pretty sure the average music listener isn't listening to any of these bands, no matter how good they are.


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 18, 2021)

SamSam said:


> The average music listener doesn't give a fuck about what gear these guys are using. They aren't browsing music going "Oh man, he's got a Jackson this band must be good!".
> 
> The endorsements they have now are as a result of their commercial success. The people putting them into the charts are not gearheads. This forum has just over 86k members, Marigold has over 12 million listens on Spotify. That's not because of us. They started off building a following here, but their reach went far beyond the forum. Back then they had deals with the smaller companies as well. The big deals came later on.
> 
> Remember Corelia? They had Music Man endorsements very early on due to online presence. Didn't get them far. Back then loads of bands were getting swooped up for some decent and some not so decent deals, but those deals don't put you in the charts.


12 million listens? that's like a whole 30$ from spotify


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## X1X (Feb 19, 2021)

Sports team theme music


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## coreysMonster (Feb 19, 2021)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> I think we interpreted the question differently.
> I group 'financial success' under the umbrella of 'commercial success,' I'm not saying their endorsements drove their music. I'm saying their endorsements made them money.
> 
> And their larger endorsements, relatively speaking, came together pretty early on in their career. They had a ton of momentum right out of the gate. I remember the earlier (and questionable) deals they had too.


Absolutely agreed, just want to add that more financial success can easily lead to more commercial success of the music. More money = more options, bigger and better shows, longer tours, more financial stability, less tension in the band, not having to break from music to go work day jobs, etc. all that stuff leads to making more stuff to attract more fans. It all works together.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Feb 19, 2021)

Question: "Why has Periphery had more commercial success than Monuments/Tesseract/Etc?"

Answer: Us. Sevenstring.org.

Seriously. 

Aside from that, the other factors include:
- The right time when the metal community was wanting something new. (Then "djent" became the burgeoning hypetrain and Periphery capitalized on that *hard*.)
- The Sumerian deal during Sumerian's peak years when almost every big "-core" band was signed with Sumerian. (You have to admit that Sumerian _*really* _used to get their bands out there and give them a substantial presence in the music world.)
- Misha constantly creating some type of content and being unafraid to show his face and _*get out there*_.
- Smart songwriting choices split between the dudes, with each member being a skill performer/composer on their respective instruments. (They definitely have struck a great songwriting balance and ethic, as opposed to the usual problem of "having too many cooks in the kitchen".)
- The endorsement deals with ubiquitous, *BIG* brands that you can snag off the shelves at any music instrument store. (Jackson, Ibanez, PRS, Peavey, etc.) That is a *ton* of promotional/marketing power in addition to what promotional/marketing power the label brings to the table with their backing. Far more than what these little, boutique, one-man operations can offer. Sure, Misha (for example) did have some endorsement from tiny, boutique operations at one point (like ProTone, Mission Engineering, etc.), but none of the Periphery guys settled entirely with endorsement from these tiny operations. They kept pushing, convincing kids to buy the products, and ultimately, that landed the Periphery guys the big fish...errrr...big deals, I mean.


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## GunpointMetal (Feb 19, 2021)

SamSam said:


> The average music listener doesn't give a fuck about what gear these guys are using.


As noted, the average music listener does not give a fuck about any prog/djent/whatever-core shit. The hype started because Bulb was putting out home-made demos with affordable equipment that didn't sound like total butt at the time, and people on nerd forums like this were all up his butt about production and shit, along with the AAL/Tosin association when they were starting to get more notice from all of us NERDS in the ERG world. Without gear/gear nerds/home recording they wouldn't have gotten to where they are the way they did. They got a good push from word of mouth and shit at the beginning.


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## _MonSTeR_ (Feb 19, 2021)

It’s all because they came up with a genre of music from the future, and also about that cover shoot for ‘Mocha Emporium’.

‘Periphery. Love that sh!t’


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## Demiurge (Feb 19, 2021)

Obviously, it's a willingness to have fun with it.

I was just going to put that in as a joke, but in a way, maybe it's true! Periphery don't take themselves too seriously where the majority of djent genre achieved Tool-superfan-level of self-seriousness in literally no time. I hope everybody involved had fun when doing it, but there was that period of time where alternating threads of band-spam of cosmic lens-flare album covers & pretentious song titles and people talking about djent being the next level of music modern equivalent of bebop jazz was supremely exhausting.


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## slan (Feb 19, 2021)

Demiurge said:


> Obviously, it's a willingness to have fun with it.
> 
> I was just going to put that in as a joke, but in a way, maybe it's true! Periphery don't take themselves too seriously where the majority of djent genre achieved Tool-superfan-level of self-seriousness in literally no time. I hope everybody involved had fun when doing it, but there was that period of time where alternating threads of band-spam of cosmic lens-flare album covers & pretentious song titles and people talking about djent being the next level of music modern equivalent of bebop jazz was supremely exhausting.



This is a great point.


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## chipchappy (Feb 19, 2021)

Adam "Nolly" Getgood.

Lock it up


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## wankerness (Feb 19, 2021)

Demiurge said:


> Obviously, it's a willingness to have fun with it.
> 
> I was just going to put that in as a joke, but in a way, maybe it's true! Periphery don't take themselves too seriously where the majority of djent genre achieved Tool-superfan-level of self-seriousness in literally no time. I hope everybody involved had fun when doing it, but there was that period of time where alternating threads of band-spam of cosmic lens-flare album covers & pretentious song titles and people talking about djent being the next level of music modern equivalent of bebop jazz was supremely exhausting.



Exactly. Periphery often had catchy choruses, pop-punky sounding vocals, and goofy song titles. In comparison to slogs of misery like Tesseract's Altered State or creepy-ass weirdness like Vildhjarta's Masstaden, it's no wonder far more people wanted to listen to it.


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## bostjan (Feb 19, 2021)

Because they just have fun with it.*™*


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## Ataraxia2320 (Feb 19, 2021)

I found bulb via soundclick, and that got me into periphery. 

I told every single person I knew about this guy bulb because the music blew my mind. I listened to Meshuggah but this was something fresher and with more pop sensibilities. 

I was really bummed initially when chris left the band and I foolishly thought they were done but little did I know they were just getting started. 

There are a million factors why periphery were THE band from that era but I think the main one is that they just wrote better, more accessible songs. The first album had a tonne of off the wall stuff going on that still had hooks. They managed to get the casual listener plus the elitist kids on board simultaneously and I don't think a band had done that since Pantera.


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## Triple-J (Feb 19, 2021)

Their material is catchy but I also think it's cause they toured so much as they seem to be over here in UK/Europe quite frequently plus one of those tours was as support for Dream Theater which must have done them a few favours.
Touring is way more important than people think not doing it can harm a bands profile and leave them playing catch up with their career but doing it can make a band overnight.


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## fantom (Feb 19, 2021)

Is Periphery even that popular? I figured they were about the same scale as The Contortionist, who really aren't too "commercially successful." A quick check on last.fm verified that suspicion.

I almost feel like the premise of this thread is that being a successful band means you sell more than 500 tickets per show or have a youtube channel...

I'm not trying to knock on Periphery, they are making a better run than I will ever pull off in the music industry, but I wouldn't say they are commercially successful. Children of Bodom, Amon Amarth, Arch Enemy, or Opeth are considerably closer to that than Periphery. I know maybe one friend who has heard of Periphery. Maybe I'm just too old for the new kids in town.


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## Amenthea (Feb 20, 2021)

fantom said:


> Is Periphery even that popular? I figured they were about the same scale as The Contortionist, who really aren't too "commercially successful." A quick check on last.fm verified that suspicion.
> 
> I almost feel like the premise of this thread is that being a successful band means you sell more than 500 tickets per show or have a youtube channel...
> 
> I'm not trying to knock on Periphery, they are making a better run than I will ever pull off in the music industry, but I wouldn't say they are commercially successful. Children of Bodom, Amon Amarth, Arch Enemy, or Opeth are considerably closer to that than Periphery. I know maybe one friend who has heard of Periphery. Maybe I'm just too old for the new kids in town.



Everyone I know has heard of them, and I'm 45 and my main music social circle are mostly a few years older or younger. My first PRS was the Holcomb model and at that point I'd never heard a single song of theirs, I just liked the guitar (it was signed on the back as well lol).
Last night I had on the djent playlist on Spotify as VOLA were on there, and it had TesseracT, Unevenstructure, Oceans Ate Alaska etc and also Periphery. I was struck by how 'normal' sounding the Perip stuff was in comparison to almost everything else on the djent playlist, so like mentioned above I think making their sound a bit more accessible along with their social openness has helped them far more than the bands around them.
They are a bit like Jack Sparrow, in that everyone knows of them even if they don't exactly know what it is they really do or how they sound.


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Feb 20, 2021)

I think the thing that makes them unique is that they appeal to both the younger screamo fans while simultaneously appealing to the prog fans. These are sub genres of metal that rarely would intersect and I think that they are the pioneers of this “djent” sub genre. It is making intelligent, more educated elements of prog accessible to the screamo fans in a way that inspires many of them to take up guitar and learn theory and timing fundamentals that math just didn’t challenge them with in school. At the same time, the screamo element may appeal to the proggy fans for just a pure, animalistic, primal release of energy. It’s a fantastic juxtaposition.


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## jaxadam (Feb 20, 2021)

fantom said:


> Is Periphery even that popular? I figured they were about the same scale as The Contortionist, who really aren't too "commercially successful." A quick check on last.fm verified that suspicion.
> 
> I almost feel like the premise of this thread is that being a successful band means you sell more than 500 tickets per show or have a youtube channel...
> 
> I'm not trying to knock on Periphery, they are making a better run than I will ever pull off in the music industry, but I wouldn't say they are commercially successful. Children of Bodom, Amon Amarth, Arch Enemy, or Opeth are considerably closer to that than Periphery. I know maybe one friend who has heard of Periphery. Maybe I'm just too old for the new kids in town.



I’m in the same boat. I don’t own a single album by them and doubt I’ve even heard one song all the way through. I just figured they were a flavor of the month on a few forums. Maybe I’m in a bubble, but I barely know anyone out of these “click and share” forums and SoundClouds who have even heard of them.


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## Demiurge (Feb 20, 2021)

fantom said:


> I'm not trying to knock on Periphery, they are making a better run than I will ever pull off in the music industry, but I wouldn't say they are commercially successful. Children of Bodom, Amon Amarth, Arch Enemy, or Opeth are considerably closer to that than Periphery. I know maybe one friend who has heard of Periphery. Maybe I'm just too old for the new kids in town.



To be fair, the premise was about comparing Periphery to their contemporaries in terms of _relative_ success. I think there's evidence to show that they're the big fish in their own pond, but you're right- there are bigger bands that have had more success. Then again, though, we could be comparing those 4 bands you've cited and someone could say, "oh sure, Opeth is big, but not like Metallica or Ozzy."


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## jaxadam (Feb 20, 2021)

Demiurge said:


> To be fair, the premise was about comparing Periphery to their contemporaries in terms of _relative_ success. I think there's evidence to show that they're the big fish in their own pond, but you're right- there are bigger bands that have had more success. Then again, though, we could be comparing those 4 bands you've cited and someone could say, "oh sure, Opeth is big, but not like Metallica or Ozzy."



Good point...


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## Flappydoodle (Feb 20, 2021)

Better songwriting, honestly

Good at social media and branding

Right place, right time


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## USMarine75 (Feb 20, 2021)

Unbounded and relentless self promotion and brand marketing?


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## nickgray (Feb 20, 2021)

fantom said:


> Children of Bodom, Amon Amarth, Arch Enemy, or Opeth are considerably closer to that than Periphery



They're all much older bands though. Periphery's first album was released only in 2010. All the bands that you've mentioned started out in the 90s. Plus times have changed as well, the tech and the music business looks a lot different nowadays.


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## Taylord (Feb 20, 2021)

fantom said:


> Is Periphery even that popular? I figured they were about the same scale as The Contortionist, who really aren't too "commercially successful." A quick check on last.fm verified that suspicion.
> 
> I almost feel like the premise of this thread is that being a successful band means you sell more than 500 tickets per show or have a youtube channel...
> 
> I'm not trying to knock on Periphery, they are making a better run than I will ever pull off in the music industry, but I wouldn't say they are commercially successful. Children of Bodom, Amon Amarth, Arch Enemy, or Opeth are considerably closer to that than Periphery. I know maybe one friend who has heard of Periphery. Maybe I'm just too old for the new kids in town.



Yeah, I just meant popular relative to this scene. I only heard of this website because of them. Several bands launched from here within a couple year window, all with a different take on this new sound so it's just interesting why some did better than others. It comes down to a little bit everything...Outgoing personalities and social media presence, each member really being a unique character in their own right, strong business minded, more pop sensibilities in the songs, not being serious all the time...and luck/right place right time.


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## Wildebeest (Feb 20, 2021)

fantom said:


> Is Periphery even that popular? I figured they were about the same scale as The Contortionist, who really aren't too "commercially successful." A quick check on last.fm verified that suspicion.


Periphery has more than twice the amount of monthly listeners than The Contortionist do on Spotify.


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## fantom (Feb 20, 2021)

Wildebeest said:


> Periphery has more than twice the amount of monthly listeners than The Contortionist do on Spotify.



Missing the forest for the trees.


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## bostjan (Feb 20, 2021)

Periphery is played on Sirius radio, and did the Grammy thing. Not sure how anyone thinks they are a small time band at this point.


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## narad (Feb 20, 2021)

bostjan said:


> Periphery is played on Sirius radio, and did the Grammy thing. Not sure how anyone thinks they are a small time band at this point.



Huge time band in a small time genre?


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## bostjan (Feb 20, 2021)

narad said:


> Huge time band in a small time genre?


Pretty accurate.


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## Mathemagician (Feb 20, 2021)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> Misha. It's because of Misha.
> I love all the other dudes, but Misha is one driven MF. He is _*always*_ doing something, and that generates a lot of interest. Face time is _*super*_ important. The whole band has a very social-media friendly style personality and the way that they shitpost makes you feel like you're part of the group. That works wonders for the numbers.
> 
> Of course, it also helps that as @Wucan said, the gear that they've attached their name to is actually....pretty solid- and they were savvy enough to land large-scale, major company endorsements early on due to how well known they were almost immediately due to all of the attention the early demos got.
> ...



This covers a lot of ground and is very complimentary of their efforts. I don’t really listen to them but what I have heard I didn’t mind at all. And the guitars the members use are drool-worthy a good 97.314% of the time.

They came in with eyes wide open knowing the game. You make music to sell it, and if you can you sell other stuff to continue making music. You want an ecosystem that cross-sells itself.

Sometimes artists would hide their “super tone settings/secrets”. Periphery would sell you a plug in that sounds exactly like them. Why? Because you aren’t periphery and you aren’t going to write a periphery song. So whatever you do with it is your business. And most fans just want to play along to the songs. Remember this wasn’t that common 10+ years ago, as the modeling tech wasn’t quite there. They rode that wave too.

The online presence is a masterclass in marketing. Metal is niche, and sub-genres can be more niche/temporary flashes in the pan. These guys did it first, and kept improving to do it best, and then did so selling music with screaming and low tuned instruments.

In an industry where lots of bands call it quits due to dwindling album/merch/tour sales these guys kept selling and getting bigger. And it worked. I’ve got my eyes on gear the various members use at all time just to see if there’s anything cool, and I would only recognize Scarlet or Marigold by ear.


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## Randy (Feb 20, 2021)

Not to be a, like, djent hipster or whatever but if we're gonna compare Periphery to all those dudes, yeah djent is common thread and IMO the best djent happened before Periphery was really Periphery 

Granddaddy of djent obviously and, IMO, unsurpassed in the aesthetic



I don't think Periphery is as derivative of Meshuggah as it is of Sikth, who IMO is the second evolution of djent and also predates Periphery. But I mean, this compositionally sounds a lot like Periphery with different vocals



The timeline gets wavier here, I think you've got the original Bulb demos and stuff, but I still don't think "band" yet. I'd assume there were maybe some Bulb+Orbo demos in there that might have been "Periphery" but still not a band yet IMO.

You had some other guys, probably some Tesseract demos out there but IMO you didn't have a BAND-band still until probably Fellsilent



After that I think you have djent in it's full stride, Periphery as a real band, Tesseract, Chimpspanner, Nolly, The Safety Fire, all that stuff.

Anyway, I think that's relevent because IMO creatively, Meshuggah continued and even improved, Sikth continued and improved, Fellsilent died but somewhat evolved with Browne and Monuments but didn't have the same footing.

Periphery took off as a totally different thing, it is like a lifestyle brand. Misha is Periphery, Periphery is Misha but Misha is also Horizon devices, and the Jackson sig, and to an extent Getgood Drums and all that.

I remember sometime around 2008 being at party and pulling up a bunch of Bulb demos to show people the quality of the production for being a bedroom recording. The mix, the musicianship, the drum programming, everything. My musician friends were impressed but more notably, people who didn't even play instruments were impressed. Like "wow this is fun and crazy and chaotic and this is some dude's Soundclick?"

And after Periphery got signed and they still wore Misha and his brand on their sleeve, it was like every audience they got infront of were equally impressed by that all the way up to the top. Just like in Bulb's early days, it still had that subtext of "you like this? well you can do it too, just buy --------" and it all was baked into the cake.

You could listen to Periphery, you could play the same guitars as Periphery, play the same amp or use the same presets, use the same drum samples, infact you could even HIRE Periphery (well, Misha) to make you sound like Periphery. That with the social media stuff and whatever always made them come across equal parts impressive and accessible.

At this point, Misha and Periphery are a brand way beyond those things. There's still some of that djent stuff at their core but at this point, that band as a unit and everyone in that band have their tentacles in so many things it's less about "wow that really good djent band" and more about "wow, those guys that sound good no matter what they do".


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## narad (Feb 20, 2021)

Also people don't realize but from Periphery II onward all their riffs and guitar solos have been composed by Swedish songwriting legend Max Martin, which certainly played a big part.


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## Masoo2 (Feb 21, 2021)

narad said:


> Also people don't realize but from Periphery II onward all their riffs and guitar solos have been composed by Swedish songwriting legend Max Martin, which certainly played a big part.


Like 99% certain this is a joke but gotta ask anyways: source?

Never thought Max Martin would be the type of cross genres. I know Rob Cavallo and to a very small extent Drew Fulk (aka WZRBLD) cross genres a bit, but I always knew Martin to be the 100% pop type.

Again I get this is likely a joke about the overall catchiness and accessibility of Periphery's work (why they succeeded the most imo), but if it's serious man I'd love to read about it.


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## mastapimp (Feb 21, 2021)

Masoo2 said:


> source?


Heard it from Scott Storch, who also ghostwrote their beats.


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## MrWulf (Feb 21, 2021)

That may or may not be a riff on Green Day's last album PR push, lmao.


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## Wildebeest (Feb 21, 2021)

fantom said:


> Missing the forest for the trees.


I don't think last.fm numbers are worth any sort of merit when discussing popularity, especially if you ignore all the signature gear that Periphery has and The Contortionist doesn't have.


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## VibTDog (Feb 21, 2021)

Because of threads like this.


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## Xaios (Feb 21, 2021)

Randy said:


> You could listen to Periphery, you could play the same guitars as Periphery, play the same amp or use the same presets, use the same drum samples, infact you could even HIRE Periphery (well, Misha) to make you sound like Periphery.


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## failsafe (Feb 21, 2021)

I’m old (42) and I only know of Periphery from this forum. I am however a huge fan!


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## Kobalt (Feb 21, 2021)

Lorcan Ward said:


> it doesn’t help that the genre became oversaturated quickly with so many Periphery clones and went from being a fresh sound to a fatigued and repetitive one quickly. That happens with every genre but because of the internet it was accelerated.


Surprisingly enough, Periphery has always managed to pull a different flavor with each album. Yeah, the core sound has remained more or less the same, but it's hard to say they all sound exactly the same. It's a massive difference going from self-titled to Hail Stan.

I guess that's contributed to them never losing much momentum.


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## fantom (Feb 22, 2021)

Wildebeest said:


> I don't think last.fm numbers are worth any sort of merit when discussing popularity, especially if you ignore all the signature gear that Periphery has and The Contortionist doesn't have.



Still missing the forest for the trees. 200k vs 400k Spotify numbers mean pretty much nothing when commercially successful musicians have tens of millions. It's like asking if someone is a millionaire and arguing about of they have 1000 dollars or 2000 dollars. Again, I respect Periphery's run. I just don't see the difference here.


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## bulb (Feb 22, 2021)

man i have no idea why periphery has seen any success at all, i think we just had fun with it, and then got really lucky?

anyways, this is why i will always have massive imposter syndrome haha


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## AwakenTheSkies (Feb 22, 2021)

I don't know why because I don't know how any of this "commercially succesful" thing works. If I had to point out a difference from the other bands that I've heard, I think Bulb does have a really good ear like he says. He can make music that will catch your attention while others who are more skilled, talented or knowledgeable might not get the same results. It's a subjective thing too I guess. They seem like personable people too and they uploaded their own videos on the internet which made them more accessible maybe? They posted many gear demos. For example I discovered Bulb and eventually Periphery entirely because I saw a video of Misha demoing a PRS Archon and playing Breeze (the video is gone now I think). I found those chords very interesting and started listening to the old demos and after getting used to the vocals Periphery.


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## bracky (Feb 22, 2021)

I became hooked on Periphery before I knew anything about the members of the band except that one of them got started as a member here. It was juggernaut alpha that did it. It’s like I had finally found that perfect band that blended everything I like about music. They just had THE sound at the right time for me.


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## Wildebeest (Feb 22, 2021)

fantom said:


> Still missing the forest for the trees. 200k vs 400k Spotify numbers mean pretty much nothing when commercially successful musicians have tens of millions. It's like asking if someone is a millionaire and arguing about of they have 1000 dollars or 2000 dollars. Again, I respect Periphery's run. I just don't see the difference here.


I think you are going to move goal posts to suit your needs.

A millionaire caring about 1k vs 2k has nothing to do with the monthly listeners of a band.

So, Periphery has,

The Grammy nomination(s?)
More than twice the monthly listeners on the world's biggest streaming platform
Signature gear for every member by some of the biggest corporations

but they are apparently the same size and scale of band to you.

Looks like your head is intentionally in the sand instead of me missing the forest.


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## Masoo2 (Feb 22, 2021)

Wildebeest said:


> I don't think last.fm numbers are worth any sort of merit when discussing popularity, especially if you ignore all the signature gear that Periphery has and The Contortionist doesn't have.


Does last.fm scrub/"scrobble" from ALL users of apps like Spotify and Pandora and Apple Music, or just from their users who sign up for last.fm?

Because like seriously who uses last.fm in 2021, I don't know a single person, including my musician friends, who even knows what last.fm _is_.

Though I will say, I was surprised to see the Periphery monthly listeners on Spotify being only 400k. I expected more like 700k minimum.


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## fantom (Feb 22, 2021)

Wildebeest said:


> I think you are going to move goal posts to suit your needs.
> 
> A millionaire caring about 1k vs 2k has nothing to do with the monthly listeners of a band.
> 
> ...



Does the word "metaphor" mean anything to you? If you think I was talking about money, you completely missed the point... Again...

Let's try a different one. If a successful movie has to be 2 hrs long, you are arguing about a 30 seconds vs 1 minute commercial. The scale of what is commercially successfully is much higher than most heavy music.


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## Kwert (Feb 22, 2021)

fantom said:


> Does the word "metaphor" mean anything to you? If you think I was talking about money, you completely missed the point... Again...
> 
> Let's try a different one. If a successful movie has to be 2 hrs long, you are arguing about a 30 seconds vs 1 minute commercial. The scale of what is commercially successfully is much higher than most heavy music.




I think the point is that the comparison is between bands in the same genre. Not comparing Periphery to Metallica or whatever. 

Compared to the other popular bands in the Djent/modern prog metal scene, Periphery is clearly a more successful band. If you’re comparing them to bands that are getting millions of streams etc. then yes, as the other poster said you are missing the forest for the trees.


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## gunshow86de (Feb 22, 2021)

Really I think they're just much better song writers than the other bands mentioned. I don't listen to djent/modern prog bands, but I do like Periphery. I listened to the first two albums a couple of months ago after not hearing them for years, and it was crazy how I still knew all the riffs, arrangements and even most of the lyrics.


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## nickgray (Feb 22, 2021)

fantom said:


> The scale of what is commercially successfull



Depends on your standards though. If you're a major label - yeah, not exactly a big fish. Just the band itself though, compared to other similar bands, and taking into account that metal as a whole is a relatively niche genre, and that Periphery is in a niche subgenre, and that they're "only" 10 years old, and that music industry and media changed dramatically and rapidly in recent years? Not a small band by any stretch.


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## _MonSTeR_ (Feb 22, 2021)

Isn’t the point of this thread though about the commercial success of Band A relative to Band B?

Bands C, D and E aren’t part of the topic title and that’s why folks are continuing to argue in different directions.

If Band A sell 10 CDs and 2 T-shirts, then they are LITERALLY twice as successful as Band B who only sell 5 CDs and 1 T-shirt.


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## fantom (Feb 22, 2021)

Being twice as successful at selling merch doesn't mean a band is *commercially* successful. I've never seen anyone wearing a Periphery shirt, including at concerts before the pandemic. I've seen tons of Iron Maiden shirts.

It is exactly about the standards. My entire point is that metal as a whole, not even talking about niche subgenres, has not been commercially viable since the late 1980s. Maybe early 1990s when considering Metallica or even Pantera or Slipknot. Coming back and trying to compare bands that no one heard of at the same scale only reinforces the point. If Periphery is going to be commercially successful, they need to pull in 100-1000x more fans, which I don't see happening. They would be playing arenas and stadiums, not medium sized venues. Everyone is so fixated on 400 vs 200. I'm questioning if that difference is even relevant.

Maybe I am overthinking the "commerical" part of this conversation and really the original discussion was meant to be about relative success selling merch or online video lessons. In which case, I'll say sorry, let's move on.


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## GunpointMetal (Feb 22, 2021)

fantom said:


> Maybe I am overthinking the "commerical" part of this conversation and really the original discussion was meant to be about relative success selling merch or online video lessons. In which case, I'll say sorry, let's move on.


Yes


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## sakeido (Feb 22, 2021)

fantom said:


> Being twice as successful at selling merch doesn't mean a band is *commercially* successful. I've never seen anyone wearing a Periphery shirt, including at concerts before the pandemic. I've seen tons of Iron Maiden shirts.
> 
> It is exactly about the standards. My entire point is that metal as a whole, not even talking about niche subgenres, has not been commercially viable since the late 1980s. Maybe early 1990s when considering Metallica or even Pantera or Slipknot. Coming back and trying to compare bands that no one heard of at the same scale only reinforces the point. If Periphery is going to be commercially successful, they need to pull in 100-1000x more fans, which I don't see happening. They would be playing arenas and stadiums, not medium sized venues. Everyone is so fixated on 400 vs 200. I'm questioning if that difference is even relevant.
> 
> Maybe I am overthinking the "commerical" part of this conversation and really the original discussion was meant to be about relative success selling merch or online video lessons. In which case, I'll say sorry, let's move on.



Slipknot is pretty fuckin huge and they got their start in the early 2000s, not 1990s. I'm pretty sure Slipknot's self title debut sold more than Periphery is ever gonna sell in their entire career.

but dude is comparing Periphery to the other djent guys.. I mean, I don't like Periphery even a little bit but at least they keep their stuff somewhat fresh. Tesseract found their sound early on and its a pretty narrow box they're playing in. Two months of Bulb demos from back in the day cover more tonal territory than Tesseract has managed to explore in almost 20 fkin years.

Bulb said himself they turned over their whole fanbase to the point they don't even play P1 stuff live anymore, not even Icarus Lives. They were always finding more listeners and new fans with each album. I seriously doubt the same can be said for Tesseract.


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 22, 2021)

As Devin Townsend likes to say, "prog metal doesn't pay".


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## lewstherin006 (Feb 23, 2021)

Easy, Periphery has the biggest Peens.


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## Ataraxia2320 (Feb 23, 2021)

fantom said:


> It is exactly about the standards. My entire point is that metal as a whole, not even talking about niche subgenres, has not been commercially viable since the late 1980s. Maybe early 1990s when considering Metallica or even Pantera or Slipknot.



Someone is forgetting that Korn and Limp Bizkit were some of the biggest bands in the world for the time period they were in. They were topping the billboard charts and were directly competing with artists like Eminem at his peak. Not to mention Linkin Park. 

I would say they were the last GIANT metal band. You still have artists like 55DP and Slipknot who make nice money but the music industry has changed (and I would say for the worse).


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## soul_lip_mike (Feb 23, 2021)

Ataraxia2320 said:


> Someone is forgetting that Korn and Limp Bizkit were some of the biggest bands in the world for the time period they were in. They were topping the billboard charts and were directly competing with artists like Eminem at his peak. Not to mention Linkin Park.
> 
> I would say they were the last GIANT metal band. You still have artists like 55DP and Slipknot who make nice money but the music industry has changed (and I would say for the worse).



Dont FFDP play arenas?


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## Emperoff (Feb 23, 2021)

budda said:


> Getting started on SSO.



The only relevant response on the thread. No joke. Bulb created a cult following here BEFORE the band was even formed.

They defined a new genre. Everybody else came afterwards. It happens with most genre-defining bands.

Also, they're a very smart marketing powerhouse. Each guitar player is endorsed by a different pickup and guitar company. That is not a coincidence, it's triple market exposure.
Also Bulb and Nolly (although not anymore in the band) have their own gear companies as well. Everything adds up.


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## gunshow86de (Feb 23, 2021)




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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 23, 2021)

got bored and looked at a bunch of those stupid net worth websites. Found this one claiming Misha was blonde, 7' 11" tall and 154 lbs. Also his dress size is L. lmao


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## bostjan (Feb 23, 2021)

2007 was really the last year metal was consistently noteworthy. Bands formed in 2008 or later really don't have a viable career path. Babymetal was formed i 2010ish, but I'd argue that they aren't successful because of their music on its own.

Anyway, Periphery really toured a lot behind their first album, then quickly got their music in video games and started networking with other bands/artists. That is how you succeed at pretty much anything... collaborations.


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## sakeido (Feb 23, 2021)

bostjan said:


> 2007 was really the last year metal was consistently noteworthy. Bands formed in 2008 or later really don't have a viable career path. Babymetal was formed i 2010ish, but I'd argue that they aren't successful because of their music on its own.



nope 

Deafheaven formed in 2010. Fallujah formed in 2007 but didn't have a release until 2011. 12 Foot Ninja formed in 2008 but no release until 2012. Humanity's Last Breath 2009. Northlane 2009. Erra 2009. Eskimo Callboy 2010. Orbit Culture 2013. Nothing More basically restarted from scratch in 2014. It's bro metal, but Bad Wolves formed in 2017 and are fucking huge now 

Babymetal writes good songs


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## narad (Feb 23, 2021)

bostjan said:


> Babymetal was formed i 2010ish, but I'd argue that they aren't successful because of their music on its own.



And successful despite their music, even.


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## Ataraxia2320 (Feb 23, 2021)

soul_lip_mike said:


> Dont FFDP play arenas?



Which is what I mean when I said they are making nice money. They are near the top of the radio rock genre but a large blip on the music scene in general. Nickleback are the probably only radio rock band who are still crossing over into the mainstream.


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## chipchappy (Feb 23, 2021)

sakeido said:


> nope
> 
> Deafheaven formed in 2010. Fallujah formed in 2007 but didn't have a release until 2011. 12 Foot Ninja formed in 2008 but no release until 2012. Humanity's Last Breath 2009. Northlane 2009. Erra 2009. Eskimo Callboy 2010. Orbit Culture 2013. Nothing More basically restarted from scratch in 2014. It's bro metal, but Bad Wolves formed in 2017 and are fucking huge now
> 
> Babymetal writes good songs



Ghost, too. They formed in 2005/6ish but didn't really break until 2009 or 2010


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## StevenC (Feb 23, 2021)

sakeido said:


> nope
> 
> Deafheaven formed in 2010. Fallujah formed in 2007 but didn't have a release until 2011. 12 Foot Ninja formed in 2008 but no release until 2012. Humanity's Last Breath 2009. Northlane 2009. Erra 2009. Eskimo Callboy 2010. Orbit Culture 2013. Nothing More basically restarted from scratch in 2014. It's bro metal, but Bad Wolves formed in 2017 and are fucking huge now
> 
> Babymetal writes good songs


I've heard of like two of these bands.


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## GunpointMetal (Feb 23, 2021)

sakeido said:


> Deafheaven formed in 2010. Fallujah formed in 2007 but didn't have a release until 2011. 12 Foot Ninja formed in 2008 but no release until 2012. Humanity's Last Breath 2009. Northlane 2009. Erra 2009. Eskimo Callboy 2010. Orbit Culture 2013. Nothing More basically restarted from scratch in 2014. It's bro metal, but Bad Wolves formed in 2017 and are fucking huge now


I think most of these bands can probably exist on their music careers, but how many of those bands do you think will have the opportunity to make Slipknot/Korn kind of money, though? 


Ataraxia2320 said:


> You still have artists like 55DP and Slipknot who make nice money but the music industry has changed (and I would say for the worse).


 It's worse for people getting into it thinking they're going to make arena money playing metal, but I think the reality of things being widely known has led to a lot more honest art and music, and it's also made (at least from what I've seen) a lot more locally-successful artists because we're getting back to the idea that you have to work from the bottom up and people are putting in the work. I remember around 2003-2010, there were sooooo many bands that were banking on "making it big" on the internet and just being rock stars and I don't really see that anymore, which to me is a good thing. There were tons of bands that lasted one EP because they didn't get the entirety of MySpace to love their three songs or whatever.


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## sakeido (Feb 23, 2021)

StevenC said:


> I've heard of like two of these bands.


that's a you problem 

Bad Wolves has more spotify listeners than Tool.. Northlane and Erra both have more listeners than Periphery, Orbit Culture has 160k and they basically just dropped their first album.. and I forgot all about Spiritbox, who have only been together for 3 years or so, and seem to be blowing up really fast 



GunpointMetal said:


> I think most of these bands can probably exist on their music careers, but how many of those bands do you think will have the opportunity to make Slipknot/Korn kind of money, though?


Bad Wolves has a good shot at Five Finger Death Punch money which is nothin to sneeze at


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## Masoo2 (Feb 23, 2021)

StevenC said:


> I've heard of like two of these bands.


Yeah I was about to say, that's a pretty divisive list. The only ones of those with any real traction outside of smalltime metal communities are Eskimo Callboy (they blew up this past year or so in Europe), Bad Wolves (modern day Breaking Benjamin/5FDP type), and _maybe_ Deafheaven (Sunbather was pretty widely acclaimed).

Nobody knows who Fallujah, 12 Foot Ninja, HLB, or Orbit Culture are outside of small forums like this. ERRA and Northlane yeah I'd kinda agree with, but they're not Bad Wolves mainstream or anything. The whole Australian scene has the chance to become really big due to names like Northlane, Polaris, Parkway Drive, and the newer Lance Prenc-produced wave of bands like Thornhill and Alpha Wolf, but COVID put a hold on some of their chances for needed worldwide tours.

I cannot see a metal band reaching the same levels of Korn/Slipknot/Limp Bizket/Disturbed. Babymetal had their chance, but the initial hype fell pretty hard and now they're just like most other metal bands albeit with slightly broader appeal, shame because they've had some fantastic musicians behind them and the girls can actually sing pretty well for J-pop standards.

_Maybe_, just maybe, we'll see something happen with Loathe or Sleep Token, but they need a combination of top tier marketing, a return to touring, and wide acclaim ala Deafheaven to get the needed attention to become mainstream.

Is Sirius XM the place to be paying attention to these days for what's truly mainstream? I can't think of anywhere else really.


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## sakeido (Feb 23, 2021)

Masoo2 said:


> Yeah I was about to say, that's a pretty divisive list. The only ones of those with any real traction outside of smalltime metal communities are Eskimo Callboy (they blew up this past year or so in Europe), Bad Wolves (modern day Breaking Benjamin/5FDP type), and _maybe_ Deafheaven (Sunbather was pretty widely acclaimed).
> 
> Nobody knows who Fallujah, 12 Foot Ninja, HLB, or Orbit Culture are outside of small forums like this. ERRA and Northlane yeah I'd kinda agree with, but they're not Bad Wolves mainstream or anything. The whole Australian scene has the chance to become really big due to names like Northlane, Polaris, Parkway Drive, and the newer Lance Prenc-produced wave of bands like Thornhill and Alpha Wolf, but COVID put a hold on some of their chances for needed worldwide tours.
> 
> ...



I was responding to a guy saying metal bands have no career path, which is just wrong. Lots of bands have "made it" by metal standards after his arbitrary cutoff date. Many have more success than Periphery even without forum presences and fanboy militias.

as far as what's mainstream, you can just look at the Billboard chart. They account for all the modern ways of consuming music (traditional buys, radio play, streaming on most platforms, etc). Metal bands chart all the time. Babymetal's last album is the highest charting Japanese release in Billboard history... made #13 on the main chart.


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## fantom (Feb 23, 2021)

sakeido said:


> Bad Wolves has more spotify listeners than Tool.. Northlane and Erra both have more listeners than Periphery, Orbit Culture has 160k and they basically just dropped their first album.. and I forgot all about Spiritbox, who have only been together for 3 years or so, and seem to be blowing up really fast



I've also only heard of 2 of those bands. Eskimo Callboy blew up, but they are a total gimmick band. I don't know if it will last. Orbit Culture is meh. I don't think it is a him problem. There is no way to me Bad Wolves is bigger than Tool.

As far as Spotify numbers, why do you assume Spotify is a representative of all music listeners? I think I know 2 people who use Spotify. Using just Spotify as your source of truth will give you sample bias for sure. Some people use Google / YouTube. Some people use Pandora. Some use Amazon Music. A lot of people, especially over age 40, do not use streaming services at all.


Edit: on Amazon, 14 of the top 50 metal songs are by Tool. One of the top 50, a cover, is by Bad Wolves. I don't know if they will do better than Alien Ant Farm making a one hit wonder cover of a 20 year old song, but they definitely aren't as successful as Tool. I say this as someone who hasn't listened to Tool in 20 years and could care less about them.


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## StevenC (Feb 23, 2021)

I've only heard of Northlane because the guitarist posts here.


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## sakeido (Feb 23, 2021)

ss.org

Tiny Reference Pool: The Forum


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## wankerness (Feb 23, 2021)

Yeah, gotta imagine the "still posts on PHBB forums in the year 2021" demographic is possibly even smaller than the "listens to prog metal" demographic! It's too bad since Facebook's hot garbage in every respect.


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## Lorcan Ward (Feb 23, 2021)

fantom said:


> Eskimo Callboy blew up, but they are a total gimmick band. I don't know if it will last.



They started as a gimmick band but turned more serious with every album. It’s only with Hypa Hypa that they went back to the comedy stuff cause Sushi(the original frontman) left. They are probably one of the most talented bands I’ve ever come across, I’ve never heard music that covers so many genres performed at that level. It will be interesting where they go with the next album now they’ve blown up. A shame it was during a pandemic where they couldn’t take advantage by touring.


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## bostjan (Feb 23, 2021)

sakeido said:


> I was responding to a guy saying metal bands have no career path, which is just wrong. Lots of bands have "made it" by metal standards after his arbitrary cutoff date. Many have more success than Periphery even without forum presences and fanboy militias.
> 
> as far as what's mainstream, you can just look at the Billboard chart. They account for all the modern ways of consuming music (traditional buys, radio play, streaming on most platforms, etc). Metal bands chart all the time. Babymetal's last album is the highest charting Japanese release in Billboard history... made #13 on the main chart.


Yet you proved my point by posting a list of bands no one really follows. And bringing up Billboard. Look at the year end hard rock charts for 2020! The top 13, yes, all of the top 13 best selling hard rock and heavy metal albums of 2020 were either compilations or reissues. And then >90% of the rest of the top 100 are, too.

Billboard.com/charts/year-end/hard-rock-albums


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## sakeido (Feb 23, 2021)

bostjan said:


> Yet you proved my point by posting a list of bands no one really follows. And bringing up Billboard. Look at the year end hard rock charts for 2020! The top 13, yes, all of the top 13 best selling hard rock and heavy metal albums of 2020 were either compilations or reissues. And then >90% of the rest of the top 100 are, too.
> 
> Billboard.com/charts/year-end/hard-rock-albums



oh and a bunch of Five Finger Death Punch, who released their first album in 2007


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## bostjan (Feb 23, 2021)

sakeido said:


> oh and a bunch of Five Finger Death Punch, who released their first album in 2007


If, by "a bunch" you mean their greatest hits that's got numerous covers of classic rock songs on it, well, um, not sure what your point is. They aren't a band formed post 2008, so they don't even match the one criteria I gave. Is there a single band on the billboard chart that does match the criteria, other than Babymetal?

Edit: go back to 2008 on the billboard site and check out the same list. Only two of the top ten that year were compilations or reissues that year, versus 10/10 for 2020. 2019 was a soundtrack, a Tool album, and eight compilations and reissues. 2018 similar to 2019. The trend from 2008 to 2017 is gradual, but paints a telling picture of hard rock and metal losing its presence and relying heavily on nostalgia.


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## sakeido (Feb 23, 2021)

bostjan said:


> If, by "a bunch" you mean their greatest hits that's got numerous covers of classic rock songs on it, well, um, not sure what your point is. They aren't a band formed post 2008, so they don't even match the one criteria I gave. Is there a single band on the billboard chart that does match the criteria, other than Babymetal?
> 
> Edit: go back to 2008 on the billboard site and check out the same list. Only two of the top ten that year were compilations or reissues that year, versus 10/10 for 2020. 2019 was a soundtrack, a Tool album, and eight compilations and reissues. 2018 similar to 2019. The trend from 2008 to 2017 is gradual, but paints a telling picture of hard rock and metal losing its presence and relying heavily on nostalgia.



So your criteria is basically, compare a bunch of bands who have been around for <12 years to ones that have been around for 30 to 50+ years.

K. Sorry, that's dumb. A new FFDP album is at #18, you missed that.


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## bostjan (Feb 23, 2021)

sakeido said:


> So your criteria is basically, compare a bunch of bands who have been around for <12 years to ones that have been around for 30 to 50+ years.
> 
> K. Sorry, that's dumb.


I said "Bands formed in 2008 or later really don't have a viable career path." Your response was "nope," then you gave a bunch of absolutely terrible examples of bands that have no where near the following bands pre-2007 had. You also pointed to the billboard charts, which was also a horrible example, since, as I pointed out, pre-2008 had new heavy music albums charting and 2020 does not, with a steady decline in between.

Comparing bands from 12 years ago with their sales data from 12 years ago relative to older bands then to what's happening now, and yes, you proved my point. What's dumb is how you jump headfirst into an argument with me without any valid points to support your conjecture that I'm full of shit, and then when I defend my original point, your response is "K. Sorry, that's dumb."

Babymetal's billboard chart performance, BTW: https://www.billboard.com/music/babymetal
One song that charted, as a special guest. A couple of their own that did on the hot 200.


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## fantom (Feb 23, 2021)

sakeido said:


> So your criteria is basically, compare a bunch of bands who have been around for <12 years to ones that have been around for 30 to 50+ years.
> 
> K. Sorry, that's dumb. A new FFDP album is at #18, you missed that.



So how about compare bands who have been around less than 5 years to people like Billie Eilish then? You keep changing the rules. If you narrow down the list of artists to compare to bands that got famous on their debut album before they were 25 years old released in the last 2 years and from a specific city, but not the whole city because the zip code matters....oh and they must play Ibanez to count. And their personal phone numbers have to contain at least 3 zeros. Changing the goal post, anyone who owns a guitar will be successful as long as their mom listens to them.



GunpointMetal said:


> It's worse for people getting into it thinking they're going to make arena money playing metal, but I think the reality of things being widely known has led to a lot more honest art and music, and it's also made (at least from what I've seen) a lot more locally-successful artists because we're getting back to the idea that you have to work from the bottom up and people are putting in the work. I remember around 2003-2010, there were sooooo many bands that were banking on "making it big" on the internet and just being rock stars and I don't really see that anymore, which to me is a good thing. There were tons of bands that lasted one EP because they didn't get the entirety of MySpace to love their three songs or whatever.



I feel like you just summarized my dislike of Trivium.


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## bostjan (Feb 23, 2021)

sakeido said:


> A new FFDP album is at #18, you missed that.





bostjan said:


> The top 13, yes, all of the top 13 best selling hard rock and heavy metal albums of 2020 were either compilations or reissues. And then >90% of the rest of the top 100 are, too.



18 is not included in the top 13. One example in the top 100 is also not >10%. I'm not sure what your point is.

It's true that some bands like Ghost and 5FDP (who formed prior to 2008) and Babymetal (who I mentioned as a sole exception) are getting some success. If you say that all I have to do is check the billboard charts to see that I'm wrong, then you tell me, which metal band that formed post-2008 is charting? Simple as that. You set this one up pretty clearly.


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## sakeido (Feb 23, 2021)

bostjan said:


> I said "Bands formed in 2008 or later really don't have a viable career path." Your response was "nope," then you gave a bunch of absolutely terrible examples of bands that have no where near the following bands pre-2007 had. You also pointed to the billboard charts, which was also a horrible example, since, as I pointed out, pre-2008 had new heavy music albums charting and 2020 does not, with a steady decline in between.



Your idea of a music career apparently starts at "biggest band in the genre" which simply isn't true. That's superstardom. I think you may need to look up what the word career actually means. You being mega ignorant and apparently not listening to any music at all, or reading any music sites, or even logging into Spotify one single time doesn't make them "terrible examples." You could go out and find a bunch more if you wanted, some of which will probably be better.

I'm gonna need some backup for why you drew the line at 2008, specifically. Why not 2020? If anything has actually made a career in metal impossible, it'd be COVID.



> What's dumb is how you jump headfirst into an argument with me without any valid points to support your conjecture that I'm full of shit, and then when I defend my original point, your response is "K. Sorry, that's dumb."



Called it dumb because it is. I should have just gone with this:





> Babymetal's billboard chart performance, BTW: https://www.billboard.com/music/babymetal
> One song that charted, as a special guest. A couple of their own that did on the hot 200.


That shows songs, not albums, genius. You have to click a few more times to see their ALBUM charted #13.


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## X1X (Feb 23, 2021)

It's just not a very good idea to allow compilation albums to the main charts. I do not know how charts are calculated in times of streaming. People like to listen to old hits. Back in the day they listened to the album they had bought years ago. Now they stream whatever comes up in the search results first. Making that first result "a new album" (=compilation) sounds like a good idea for the record companies, maybe...


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## X1X (Feb 23, 2021)

I think having a good / unique! vocalist is the most important thing in terms of success. Complex rhythms and tricks won't get you that far. If you can play a Van Halen song you're a good enough guitarist. Being more technical will probably just hurt your changes of success. Songwriting is the key.


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## bostjan (Feb 23, 2021)

sakeido said:


> Your idea of a music career apparently starts at "biggest band in the genre" which simply isn't true. That's superstardom. I think you may need to look up what the word career actually means. You being mega ignorant and apparently not listening to any music at all, or reading any music sites, or even logging into Spotify one single time doesn't make them "terrible examples." You could go out and find a bunch more if you wanted, some of which will probably be better.
> 
> I'm gonna need some backup for why you drew the line at 2008, specifically. Why not 2020? If anything has actually made a career in metal impossible, it'd be COVID.
> 
> ...



Why do I care? I already admitted Babymetal was the exception, right off the bat, and I never said the link was to albums. Maybe you are so angry at me, for saying that there's no money in metal anymore, that you aren't able to follow along or whatever.

My point was that no bands formed after 2008, except Babymetal, have viable careers in metal. I think your responses to me only go on to support that statement. Evidently, you think otherwise, so whatever. Your examples of successful bands that formed post-2008 and aren't Babymetal are: Five Finger Death Punch and Babymetal. 

The other bands you posted are probably very successful by today's standards, but I think we probably all agree (maybe except just you) that none of those bands have anywhere near the success that what we would have called "successful metal bands" had more than 12 years ago.

Why not 2020? Easy, because there's a reason, other than that the genre stopped being successful, to explain why the year sucked for bands. Why did 2019 suck for metal bands, though? Why 2008? Good question. I'm not claiming to have all of the answers.


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## GunpointMetal (Feb 23, 2021)

X1X said:


> It's just not a very good idea to allow compilation albums to the main charts. I do not know how charts are calculated in times of streaming. People like to listen to old hits. Back in the day they listened to the album they had bought years ago. Now they stream whatever comes up in the search results first. Making that first result "a new album" (=compilation) sounds like a good idea for the record companies, maybe...


This is why a lot of pop and rap artists are releasing "bonus editions" of the same album or releasing singles and then tacking a couple extra songs to it and calling it *insert name of single* bonus EP edition, or whatever. They can stretch one productive recording session into 4-5 "releases" to keep new stuff at the top of the lists, even if its really just old stuff with a different remix or something.


X1X said:


> I think having a good / unique! vocalist is the most important thing in terms of success. Complex rhythms and tricks won't get you that far. If you can play a Van Halen song you're a good enough guitarist. Being more technical will probably just hurt your changes of success. Songwriting is the key.


 A unique vocalist and all the songwriting prowess in the world won't get you shit if you can't throw money into advertising and promotion.


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## X1X (Feb 23, 2021)

New metal bands no longer write good songs and throaty vocals won't get you far. They overthink songwriting. I haven't heard a metal song that would feel like it had potential for success in ages. Megadeth's Dystopia was ok. Nothing else comes to mind. I would be surprised if Metallica got anywhere with their new songs. The top pop songwriters still know how to write sometimes (Hello by Adele for example). 

Modern metal production is not good. People do not like when all the frequencies are filled. You need SPACE! The latest Tesseract album had a little better production but 99.999% is quite bad (just my opinion). People like pleasant music and can extend their comfort zone only so far. Modern aggressive tones and vocals are too far especially when the frequencies are "optimally" filled. My favorite album in terms of production is Megadeth's original mix of Countdown to Extinction (I wouldn't like all albums to sound like that though).

Then there are other issues. Tesseract would potentially be a hit, but they have that weird emo feel to the vocal melodies.

Just my random opinions. I admit I could be wrong.


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## sakeido (Feb 23, 2021)

bostjan said:


> Maybe you are so angry at me, for saying that there's no money in metal anymore, that you aren't able to follow along or whatever.



Nah you just said something egregiously dumb so I've called you out on it.



> My point was that no bands formed after 2008, except Babymetal, have viable careers in metal. I think your responses to me only go on to support that statement. Evidently, you think otherwise, so whatever. Your examples of successful bands that formed post-2008 and aren't Babymetal are: Five Finger Death Punch and Babymetal.


Babymetal was your example, not mine. I only chimed in to say they have some good songs and point out to another guy who thought they were already over, that their last album was still a hit.



> The other bands you posted are probably very successful by today's standards, but I think we probably all agree (maybe except just you) that none of those bands have anywhere near the success that what we would have called "successful metal bands" had more than 12 years ago


that's fine, except since I actually go out to these shows I've noticed a lot of these upcoming successful bands are playing the exact same venues to the same numbers of people as those successful bands from 12 years ago... maybe we don't have outliers like Gojira and Lamb of God this time around, oh no wait Deafheaven plays packed big shows never mind. I'm not even sure if you're referring to nu metal bands at this point, because 2008 was well into the period they were on life support or gone altogether. 

instead of using the word "successful" maybe say what you actually mean, which is "I don't like any of these bands today." It's not metal's fault you're entirely out of touch



> Why not 2020? Easy, because there's a reason, other than that the genre stopped being successful, to explain why the year sucked for bands. Why did 2019 suck for metal bands, though? Why 2008? Good question. I'm not claiming to have all of the answers.


this is just straight nonsense. I mean, you pulled 2008 out of your ass, so you at least have to explain why. I'm sure it's because your argument gets worse and worse each year you move it back... not that 2008 has worked out for you, but whatever


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## fantom (Feb 23, 2021)

bostjan said:


> The trend from 2008 to 2017 is gradual, but paints a telling picture of hard rock and metal losing its presence and relying heavily on nostalgia.



Just a theory, if the ratings of metal on Billboard charts started to decline in 2008, that is right after Metalocalypse and Dethklok was widely successful with the non-metal crowd. I know more people who listened to Dethklok and saw them on tour those first few years than any other band mentioned on this thread with the exception of maybe Linkin Park.



bostjan said:


> The other bands you posted are probably very successful by today's standards, but I think we probably all agree (maybe except just you) that none of those bands have anywhere near the success that what we would have called "successful metal bands" had more than 12 years ago.



The bands he mentioned are mostly unknown. I get it. When I was young, I thought everyone knew of bands like Emperor or At the Gates. Now more people know who Ola is than The Haunted.


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## bostjan (Feb 23, 2021)

sakeido said:


> Nah you just said something egregiously dumb so I've called you out on it.
> 
> 
> Babymetal was your example, not mine. I only chimed in to say they have some good songs and point out to another guy who thought they were already over, that their last album was still a hit.
> ...


Stop talking to me like your going through a bout of roid rage, man. It's not helping your case.

My experience has been totally different. I haven't seen any shows in the last year that weren't virtual, and before that, I'm just not experiencing the same thing as you. For example, I saw Moontooth a couple years ago, who are getting decent airplay for a metal band, and, other than the three people who went with me, the venue staff, and the opening act, there were literally seven other people there. The last live metal show I saw before Covid was a local band and even they had about twice that many people show up to see them. I had seen Dream Theater over a dozen times, playing in a parking lot to about 70 people, building their audience up, and playing big amatheaters that held thousands, to sometime around Gigantour, then the next time they came by, they were in a little movie theater of like 500 people. The last time I saw them, they were playing in a venue that held maybe a thousand people, and I had to drive several hours to get there, because they were doing fewer dates.

I've also been on tour a couple times somewhat recently and many times (with a different band) long ago, and attendance at my shows and my friend's bands' shows are nowhere near what they used to be. Shows used to pay pretty well, but in the couple years before covid, most pay nothing. Merch sales are still sometimes okay, but it's less consistent than it used to be.

Maybe the older generation is slowing down and the newer generation is disinterested. Numetal was huge, in terms of listenership, but it basically ended in the early 2000's, but you still have bands like Disturbed doing well. Metalcore came and went since then and now Djent is basically what's left. I don't even think the average joe on the street even knows what the hell djent is. Even with all that said, djent stirred up the late 2000's a little, but there hasn't been a new grass roots movement involving metal for ten years.

I'm glad Deafheaven is doing so well, raking in the huge piles of cash from selling those 10000ish copies of their full length albums. I'll admit that's more than I expected to see. If they net $5 each, that's $10k per member, definitely enough to constitute a viable career if they are also selling out huge stadiums.

As for everything else you said, I don't even get your point. It's like you just want to argue. I'm fine with that, but just pick a coherent point and we'll discuss it, rather than just vaguely saying I'm dumb or paraphrasing what you probably didn't even read me saying and trying to make it sound stupid.


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## Themistocles (Feb 23, 2021)

boy band vibes...


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## Ordacleaphobia (Feb 23, 2021)

I'm just hilariously amused at this whole back-and-forth inside of a thread about a metal band that managed to turn their band into a full time career. Who cares if they aren't making Metallica money- they make enough to pay their bills and then some. How is that 'not a career path'? I went to college, the TEXTBOOK career path, got my degree, and I _promise _you they make more money than I do in office hell.

As long as folks can make a living, I 100% don't understand the argument.
Sure, your djent band Pluralisms is not going to make Linkin Park money. Because times change, more genres get added, and the mainstream expands. The more the mainstream expands, the less 'room' there is for niche options. Metal was _*always*_ niche, and it probably always will be.

Something else too is that we're sitting here harping on charts and comparing numbers to modern popular acts, and not considering _*relative*_ success for those at the high end that we're comparing to. As time moves on, your pop mega-icons are just going to continue to be more successful than their predecessors. More people, more listeners, more sales, more streams, more downloads. I'd bet you that the people consistently hitting the billboard top 10 today are making more than the people consistently hitting the billboard top 10 in the last decade or two, and the gap between them and whoever your favorite band is is larger than ever and will continue to expand. That doesn't take away from your favorite band's success at all.

sevenstring gunna sevenstring.


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## bostjan (Feb 23, 2021)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> I'm just hilariously amused at this whole back-and-forth inside of a thread about a metal band that managed to turn their band into a full time career. Who cares if they aren't making Metallica money- they make enough to pay their bills and then some. How is that 'not a career path'? I went to college, the TEXTBOOK career path, got my degree, and I _promise _you they make more money than I do in office hell.
> 
> As long as folks can make a living, I 100% don't understand the argument.
> Sure, your djent band Pluralisms is not going to make Linkin Park money. Because times change, more genres get added, and the mainstream expands. The more the mainstream expands, the less 'room' there is for niche options. Metal was _*always*_ niche, and it probably always will be.
> ...


We've heard it straight from the horse's mouth, though. Misha himself has said that the music-making side of it doesn't pay his bills. Just about everybody in a metal band has a side gig or dayjob or comes from money or a combination of those. The exceptions are almost entirely from bands that were established before the bottom started falling out of the economy.


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## sakeido (Feb 23, 2021)

bostjan said:


> As for everything else you said, I don't even get your point. It's like you just want to argue. I'm fine with that, but just pick a coherent point and we'll discuss it, rather than just vaguely saying I'm dumb or paraphrasing what you probably didn't even read me saying and trying to make it sound stupid.


just gonna cut it down to this. I asked for pretty specific things and you failed to deliver, completely. Pardon me for getting really annoyed. 

1) what you define as a "career"
2) who exactly are the 2008 era successful bands you're using as a yardstick
3) why did you pick 2008

Your anecdotes... Moon Tooth has a small fraction the following of those other bands I listed. I'm assuming that was their headline tour? I don't think that was a very good idea at that stage in their career. I've never heard of them but as far as I can tell they have critical appreciation but not very many listeners. You need both. Dream Theater is playing smaller and smaller venues because they're at least 15 years past their last good album, which was itself 15 years after "Pull Me Under." And to answer anecdotes with more anecdotes, all my buddies who were DT fans are completely over them these days. The Astonishing was the last straw.



> We've heard it straight from the horse's mouth, though. Misha himself has said that the music-making side of it doesn't pay his bills. Just about everybody in a metal band has a side gig or dayjob or comes from money or a combination of those. The exceptions are almost entirely from bands that were established before the bottom started falling out of the economy.


The band is the platform that makes these other things possible... Misha ain't the only guy to make that work


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## Ordacleaphobia (Feb 23, 2021)

bostjan said:


> We've heard it straight from the horse's mouth, though. Misha himself has said that the music-making side of it doesn't pay his bills. Just about everybody in a metal band has a side gig or dayjob or comes from money or a combination of those. The exceptions are almost entirely from bands that were established before the bottom started falling out of the economy.



Yeah, which is why stuff like artist endorsements are so commonplace. That's just another step on the career path, along with merch, shows, etc. Misha's the perfect example of all of this. I agree if you're looking to just release music and make your living, you're in for a rough time.


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## fantom (Feb 23, 2021)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> Yeah, which is why stuff like artist endorsements are so commonplace. That's just another step on the career path, along with merch, shows, etc. Misha's the perfect example of all of this. I agree if you're looking to just release music and make your living, you're in for a rough time.


Artist endorsements aren't a form of payment unless you are a top 50 athlete. They mostly give equipment at reduced cost in exchange for exposure. The opportunity cost could be considered income (or, don't have to spend as much on strings because get them cheaper).


This is pretty much saying that being a server in a restaurant is a career if you work for tips. And they probably make more on tips than most of the bands listed on this thread make from music or other opportunities.



sakeido said:


> 1) what you define as a "career"



What is a career? Most people consider a practical definition of a career as a salaried job to provide steady income, benefits, and growth (such as additional responsibilities over time).

Most musicians are not working for consistent pay and receive no benefits. I would say it is a subcontracting job at best. You could say musicians are "running their own businesses", but if people aren't receiving enough money to meet day to day costs and consider things like insurance and retirement accounts, it isn't a career, it is a hobby or underpaid job at best.

Look at things like Wintersun. They are asking people for money to build a house and such because they aren't making the cash.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Feb 23, 2021)

That's just one example, man. There are plenty of other things you can do as a musician to supplement the income from your album sales. 'But that isn't from the music' is a copout, because none of it would be possible without the music. I wouldn't spend $60 on a stem pack if they never made the music. I wouldn't spend $30 on a tab book for my favorite album if they never made the music. I wouldn't shell out for a lesson from one of my favorite guitarists if they had never become one of my favorite guitarists, and I'd never buy a T-shirt from the band if they were never a band. There are so many options out there, you just have to put the work in to get there and leverage them. If you chalk that up to 'side hustle' or 'day job' territory, fine.

The difference between this and your restaurant server example is that every day the server clocks in, they're essentially starting from scratch. Sure you may have a couple of regulars that are familiar and cordial with you- but for the most part, it's just another day at work. As a signed, touring band trying to make it a career, _*everything you do*_ is laying a foundation for whatever you do next.

I never said it was easy or realistic, and I'd argue that it never has been. I'm just saying it's possible and you don't need to look very far to find the proof.


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## bulb (Feb 24, 2021)

guys guys, no need to fight, i asked someone (my mom) if Periphery was the biggest and bestest band ever with the most handsomest members

she still hasn't heard of Periphery


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## jaxadam (Feb 24, 2021)

bulb said:


> she still hasn't heard of Periphery



So weird... this whole time I thought it was a spelled Perifery.


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## wankerness (Feb 25, 2021)

All this talking about billboard charts is amusing - what is this, 2000? Bands like Opeth show up on these charts now cause so few people are buying albums that when an album comes out by a band with several thousand ultra-nerds that listen to them it will sell vastly more relative copies than it would have back in the day when regular people paid for music. It's still not nearly enough to pay the bills with album sales. I mean, back in the 90s/early 00s, even C-list alt-rock bands like Fuel or 3 Doors Down managed to sell more than 2 million copies of an album. In 2019 exactly one album sold a million copies, and that was Taylor Swift. Billie Eilish, who would be the closest equivalent to something like a Britney Spears or Christina Aguilera back in pre-Napster days, sold less than 600k albums. 

This is just to say that it's a hell of a lot easier for some obscure band to spike up the charts for a day if they have a bunch of weird nerds that are dedicated to buying albums as fans than it was back when the top-selling acts were selling millions of albums a year, since the bar for entering the charts is so low. I would compare it to what's happened to the DVD market, where 15 years ago everyone was buying tons of DVDs and thus we have entire landfills filled with things like the DVD of Bad Boys, and now the top sales charts are a combination of Disney movies and then weird horror movies since the latter genre has the nerds like us that will go out and buy the disc.


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## Xaios (Feb 25, 2021)

jaxadam said:


> So weird... this whole time I thought it was a spelled Perifery.


Perifurry.


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## bulb (Feb 25, 2021)

i like cars and i feel like we should talk about them more


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## Ataraxia2320 (Feb 25, 2021)

bulb said:


> i like cars and i feel like we should talk about them more



What's your favourite Irish made car and why is it the DMC Delorean?


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## jaxadam (Feb 25, 2021)

Xaios said:


> Perifurry.


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## soul_lip_mike (Feb 25, 2021)

TBH I keep coming back to this thread just to read the pissing match.


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## Taylord (Feb 25, 2021)

Yeah this was fun


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## BornToLooze (Feb 26, 2021)

I mean, I hate djent, but Periphery can write a catchy enough song that I've tried to learn Icarus Lives before.



bulb said:


> i like cars and i feel like we should talk about them more



The fact that (if I remember right) you're a BMW guy, and I think the 426 Hemi is God's gift to mankind, sums up my view on your music. It's not my thing, but for what it is, you nailed it.


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## nightlight (Feb 26, 2021)

I don't usually listen to djent, but when I do it's Peri-Peri-flavoured and Marigold-laced hoice cuts of Hindoo-prohibited Blood Eagle meat and Meshuggah.


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## Hoss632 (Feb 26, 2021)

Lorcan Ward said:


> Better songwriting and adapting so well to the modern music world. The first album carved them a niche in the music scene but it was the second album where they exploded and developed a big audience which they’ve kept. IMO the majority of Djent/prog really lacks in songwriting, more so than almost any other metal sub genre which doesn’t pull audiences back to check out newer albums. With 3 songwriters pooling their ideas together with the intent of writing vocal driven songs rather than solely guitar driven compositions it’s no wonder Periphery are way ahead of all their peers.
> 
> it doesn’t help that the genre became oversaturated quickly with so many Periphery clones and went from being a fresh sound to a fatigued and repetitive one quickly. That happens with every genre but because of the internet it was accelerated.


I would disagree somewhat. Periphery have even said a lot of times that the first few albums the writing was guitar music driven and Spencer had to figure out how to fit vocals in. Periphery 3 and definitely 4 they did more to include Spencer in the writing process.


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## nightlight (Feb 26, 2021)

nightlight said:


> I don't usually listen to djent, but when I do it's Peri-Peri-flavoured and Marigold-laced hoice cuts of Hindoo-prohibited Blood Eagle meat and Meshuggah.




*choice cuts of Hindoo-prohibited meat. Remember, I got dibs on the band name Flesh Eating Hindoos.


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## Veldar (Feb 26, 2021)

Surprised no one named checked Ash at summerian. Regardless of their split Ash was channeling profits from their bigger bands toward periphery to help with their momentum.


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## bulb (Feb 26, 2021)

Veldar said:


> Surprised no one named checked Ash at summerian. Regardless of their split Ash was channeling profits from their bigger bands toward periphery to help with their momentum.


Really? How so?


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## guitaardvark (Feb 26, 2021)

bulb said:


> i like cars and i feel like we should talk about them more


What are your thoughts on the shift towards electric in the performance car realm? Do you see more companies beyond Tesla and Jaguar going electric only anytime soon?

I personally used to be a gearhead, but since taking steps toward a more sustainable lifestyle, I can't say I've ever looked back after getting an EV.


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## bulb (Feb 28, 2021)

guitaardvark said:


> What are your thoughts on the shift towards electric in the performance car realm? Do you see more companies beyond Tesla and Jaguar going electric only anytime soon?
> 
> I personally used to be a gearhead, but since taking steps toward a more sustainable lifestyle, I can't say I've ever looked back after getting an EV.



I think EVs are very cool, but we are still in the early days, the infrastructure isn't quite there yet, and the limitations of the batteries (weight, capacity, charge time) still are holding the full potential of them back. Also there seems to be some discussion around the mining of materials for the batteries as well as the disposal, to where I don't know if currently it's a net benefit. However I can see that getting addressed over time as well. It's definitely the last days of the ICE, and as such I plan on enjoying those (especially the atmospheric ones) while I still can. 

EVs will likely be the way forward, there are alternate fuels being explored, but EVs seem to be firmly in the lead as it stands, and they make for some very quick cars. Unfortunately, they aren't generally exciting cars to drive aside from the insane acceleration party trick which a lot of them share. Even with the low center of gravity, they tend to be very heavy, and that always compromises the sportiness and handling in the corners. Porsche has had a good attempt at them with the Taycan (which I have yet to drive) but it seems like the praise is always in the relative box of being an EV.

Anyways those are my thoughts on the matter. Do you guys agree/disagree?


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## Veldar (Feb 28, 2021)

bulb said:


> Really? How so?



Didn't he really push scarlet for you guys? I remember being in high school in Australia and after that had come out a lot more people knew who you guys were.

But even in general isn't that the trade off for label, less cash for the artist more into promo.


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## bulb (Feb 28, 2021)

Veldar said:


> Didn't he really push scarlet for you guys? I remember being in high school in Australia and after that had come out a lot more people knew who you guys were.
> 
> But even in general isn't that the trade off for label, less cash for the artist more into promo.


No, Ash never really put any money into much for us. He was kinda hands off in general with the only exception being the radio edit of Alpha as he was pushing for radio play, which it got, and then was disappointed because we didn’t write or have any songs that could be easily edited into Radio appropriate songs.

In fact, he was so hands off, it actually inspired and empowered us to start 3Dot Recordings. So yeah, not sure where you got your info haha

EDIT: Oh he did show solidarity and say he was proud of us when we got the Grammy nom. But that was also kinda hilarious because he was super disappointed with the album when we turned it in, claiming it “didn’t have any songs.” The labels would only ever hear our albums once they were mastered and turned in for production/distro, it kept the writing sacred.


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## Veldar (Mar 1, 2021)

bulb said:


> No, Ash never really put any money into much for us. He was kinda hands off in general with the only exception being the radio edit of Alpha as he was pushing for radio play, which it got, and then was disappointed because we didn’t write or have any songs that could be easily edited into Radio appropriate songs.
> 
> In fact, he was so hands off, it actually inspired and empowered us to start 3Dot Recordings. So yeah, not sure where you got your info haha
> 
> EDIT: Oh he did show solidarity and say he was proud of us when we got the Grammy nom. But that was also kinda hilarious because he was super disappointed with the album when we turned it in, claiming it “didn’t have any songs.” The labels would only ever hear our albums once they were mastered and turned in for production/distro, it kept the writing sacred.



Wild, thanks for the clarification! So was summerian just helpful for distro in the US then?

I've read about Ash wanting more straight ahead hits from you guys when you were signed so I assumed he must of been working hard to promote your "hits" and would of done so into the future. A bit of me reading too much into things.

At least you're having fun with it


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## StevenC (Mar 1, 2021)

bulb said:


> I think EVs are very cool, but we are still in the early days, the infrastructure isn't quite there yet, and the limitations of the batteries (weight, capacity, charge time) still are holding the full potential of them back. Also there seems to be some discussion around the mining of materials for the batteries as well as the disposal, to where I don't know if currently it's a net benefit. However I can see that getting addressed over time as well. It's definitely the last days of the ICE, and as such I plan on enjoying those (especially the atmospheric ones) while I still can.
> 
> EVs will likely be the way forward, there are alternate fuels being explored, but EVs seem to be firmly in the lead as it stands, and they make for some very quick cars. Unfortunately, they aren't generally exciting cars to drive aside from the insane acceleration party trick which a lot of them share. Even with the low center of gravity, they tend to be very heavy, and that always compromises the sportiness and handling in the corners. Porsche has had a good attempt at them with the Taycan (which I have yet to drive) but it seems like the praise is always in the relative box of being an EV.
> 
> Anyways those are my thoughts on the matter. Do you guys agree/disagree?


I really don't think EVs are the right direction. I think Toyota has it right with hydrogen fuel cell cars. If they were getting the development resources of battery technology I think they'd be coming out ahead on balance. They certainly offer some very ingesting opportunities for grid, storage and production. 

That said, I think EVs will be the car of the future regardless of whether they're the best option. We're just too far down that path already to get the public to accept another alternative engine.


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## KnightBrolaire (Mar 1, 2021)

StevenC said:


> I really don't think EVs are the right direction. I think Toyota has it right with hydrogen fuel cell cars. If they were getting the development resources of battery technology I think they'd be coming out ahead on balance. They certainly offer some very ingesting opportunities for grid, storage and production.
> 
> That said, I think EVs will be the car of the future regardless of whether they're the best option. We're just too far down that path already to get the public to accept another alternative engine.


Honestly the core issue with hydrogen is producing the hydrogen within a vehicle. You still need another energy source to dissociate the hydrogen gas, which basically means batteries or another fuel source to catalyze the process. Breaking those hydrogen bonds is difficult in terms of energy requirements, especially if you're going to use it to power an electric motor anyways. Straight EV just removes that step from the process tbh.
As far as EV batteries, there are some companies working on solid state batteries which should be gamechangers if they can reliably produce them (faster charge/more efficient, less electrolyte build up, much less flammable, less environmental impact, lower weight/smaller size). I know Volkswagen has a substantial contract lined up with one of the solid state battery companies already. 
Honestly if solid state batteries take off, the supercar EV will become even more viable. Between the extreme torque ev motors can generate, the lighter weight and greater efficiency, we could see some really insane stuff in the future.


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## bostjan (Mar 1, 2021)

StevenC said:


> I really don't think EVs are the right direction. I think Toyota has it right with hydrogen fuel cell cars. If they were getting the development resources of battery technology I think they'd be coming out ahead on balance. They certainly offer some very ingesting opportunities for grid, storage and production.
> 
> That said, I think EVs will be the car of the future regardless of whether they're the best option. We're just too far down that path already to get the public to accept another alternative engine.


Naw, hydrogen fuel cells are great, but it's all bullshit for personal vehicles. Hydrogen is exceptionally difficult to store, especially on small scales. I work with hydrogen and fuel cells on a daily basis, and I wish I could see an application like this, but all of the promises I've heard are based on rubbish, so it really strongly seems like it'll never be practical.

Maybe for trains or something, which are far more environmentally friendly and cost effective than cars anyway.


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## StevenC (Mar 1, 2021)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Honestly the core issue with hydrogen is producing the hydrogen within a vehicle. You still need another energy source to dissociate the hydrogen gas, which basically means batteries or another fuel source to catalyze the process. Breaking those hydrogen bonds is difficult in terms of energy requirements, especially if you're going to use it to power an electric motor anyways. Straight EV just removes that step from the process tbh.
> As far as EV batteries, there are some companies working on solid state batteries which should be gamechangers if they can reliably produce them (faster charge/more efficient, less electrolyte build up, much less flammable, less environmental impact, lower weight/smaller size). I know Volkswagen has a substantial contract lined up with one of the solid state battery companies already.
> Honestly if solid state batteries take off, the supercar EV will become even more viable. Between the extreme torque ev motors can generate, the lighter weight and greater efficiency, we could see some really insane stuff in the future.


I'm sceptical because the battery revolution has been "just around the corner" for so long now, when Mirais are now getting 500 miles on a tank.


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## davemeistro (Mar 1, 2021)

StevenC said:


> I really don't think EVs are the right direction.



I'll be that asshole hippie and one-up this by saying I really don't think investing in cars as personal vehicles is the right direction. Ignoring the whole battery sourcing debate for a second, non-exhaust emissions (tire/brake/road wear, tiny lil dust particles) are a huge source of pollution that is currently completely unregulated. 

If by magic, every car turned into an electric car overnight, cities would still be clogged with traffic, and non-exhaust emissions would still harm the environment and our health. Literally millions of people every year would still die in traffic 'accidents' which have been completely normalized and accepted in our society, and are actually encouraged by the way our roads are designed, as engineers typically prioritize vehicle speeds/throughput rather than safety for people walking and biking, or making transit/biking/walking a practical means to get around. 

Rather than focus on figuring out how to re-invent the very thing that kills millions and straight-up ruins cities, I believe we should be focusing on developing hardcore infrastructure to make taking public transit, biking, and walking to places the easiest and fastest choice, rather than driving. 

And to stay on topic, clearly the reason why Periphery has had more success than its peers is because losers like us are willing to maintain a decade-old Periphery megathread with 776 pages, which is like, one million more than Monuments/Tesseract/etc.


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## slan (Mar 1, 2021)

davemeistro said:


> Rather than focus on figuring out how to re-invent the very thing that kills millions and straight-up ruins cities, I believe we should be focusing on developing hardcore infrastructure to make taking public transit, biking, and walking to places the easiest and fastest choice, rather than driving.



The urban planner in me loves this take. I still have a soft spot for motorcycles, though.


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## Captain Butterscotch (Mar 1, 2021)

Nvm


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## Shoeless_jose (Mar 2, 2021)

I skipped a lot of pages and not trying to take anything away from Periphery but they have also made way more albums than the other groups. More chances to make fans with more albums.

Also their studio diary videos are fun remind me of the old school DVDs bands used to release like Thrice and Blink 182 and others.

And also Monuments has had big issues trying to tour over in North America.


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## soul_lip_mike (Mar 2, 2021)

If I love periphery but find most other “Djent” to be pretty silly, who should I check out?


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## slan (Mar 2, 2021)

soul_lip_mike said:


> If I love periphery but find most other “Djent” to be pretty silly, who should I check out?



Chimp Spanner


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## Shoeless_jose (Mar 2, 2021)

soul_lip_mike said:


> If I love periphery but find most other “Djent” to be pretty silly, who should I check out?




Architects, not sure if they are Djent per say but modern metal and really good.


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## ArtDecade (Mar 2, 2021)

soul_lip_mike said:


> If I love periphery but find most other “Djent” to be pretty silly, who should I check out?



If you love Periphery, maybe you could check out some Pussycat Dolls or Wilson Phillips. We don't want you to have to move the bar too quickly.


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## X1X (Mar 2, 2021)

I hear Morgan Wallen's star is on the rise


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## duffbeer33 (Mar 2, 2021)

I'll throw in my two cents on the OP's question, from the standpoint of someone who wasn't on these forums a decade ago. I heard Icarus Lives on Sirius Liquid Metal sometime in 2010, and the overall sound and mix of that intro riff just pulled me in. I recall being a little confused by the vocals at the time, like they didn't fit or something, but I was totally intrigued by the instrumentals and enjoyed the singing more and more over time. Which led me to discover bulb's solo work, these forums, and then later all the other related artists (I love monuments and volumes, as well). So I'd say that whatever tactics led to getting airplay on Sirius back then were a key marketing win. 

And who knows, if I hadn't heard it on Sirius, maybe I wouldn't be here on these forums watching people overthink guitar pickup choices or complain incessantly about bands that they don't like.


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## X1X (Mar 2, 2021)

duffbeer33 said:


> complain incessantly about bands that they don't like.



Purpose of life finally found on 2nd of March 2021.


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## budda (Mar 2, 2021)

X1X said:


> Purpose of life finally found on 2nd of March 2021.



Someone missed the Noodles era


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## ArtDecade (Mar 2, 2021)

budda said:


> Someone missed the Noodles era



The Offspring dude?


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## bostjan (Mar 2, 2021)

Since I love being a reductive asshole, Periphery is more successful commercially because more people like them than those other bands.

When I auditionee for music school, my playing was not fantastic. I got piss poor audition scores, though, which I thought were much worse than I deserved. Some of the other people auditioning flubbed pretty bad, but simply weren't as boring as me, and got much better scores. Because music is a popularity contest, essentially.


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## GunpointMetal (Mar 2, 2021)

bostjan said:


> Because music is a popularity contest, essentially.


 I've been playing outside genres of metal for ~ 20 years now and I still have to explain this bandmates annually. We play music with a generally small fan base (comparatively) and then we shrink that number for 1/2-2/3 because we don't adhere to any strict rules inside the general genre, and these guys are like "How come so and so's crappy generic metalcore band with clean singing and only harmonic-minor-open-string-pedal-tone-riffs always gets asked to open for big touring bands in town?". This shit ain't a meritocracy.


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## guitaardvark (Mar 3, 2021)

bulb said:


> I think EVs are very cool, but we are still in the early days, the infrastructure isn't quite there yet, and the limitations of the batteries (weight, capacity, charge time) still are holding the full potential of them back. Also there seems to be some discussion around the mining of materials for the batteries as well as the disposal, to where I don't know if currently it's a net benefit. However I can see that getting addressed over time as well. It's definitely the last days of the ICE, and as such I plan on enjoying those (especially the atmospheric ones) while I still can.
> 
> EVs will likely be the way forward, there are alternate fuels being explored, but EVs seem to be firmly in the lead as it stands, and they make for some very quick cars. Unfortunately, they aren't generally exciting cars to drive aside from the insane acceleration party trick which a lot of them share. Even with the low center of gravity, they tend to be very heavy, and that always compromises the sportiness and handling in the corners. Porsche has had a good attempt at them with the Taycan (which I have yet to drive) but it seems like the praise is always in the relative box of being an EV.
> 
> Anyways those are my thoughts on the matter. Do you guys agree/disagree?


I agree with you on a few points. Again, I'm also looking at it from a primarily pragmatic/ecological perspective before I consider how fun they are to drive. I will say that my first gen Nissan Leaf isn't exactly a hoot to drive, though I do enjoy my girlfriend's Model 3 and my parents' Model Y quite a bit (it definitely doesn't feel as disconnected from the road as a Prius or a Leaf, in my opinion, but I'm also not taking them to Laguna Seca). I seriously can't think of a better daily driver than a Model 3, since it balances performance, practicality, value, and sustainability. 

As far as the ecological costs of production, Engineering Explained has a fantastic video that explains how the higher upfront emissions are offset over the lifetime of the vehicle. There's also an emerging market for clean lithium battery recycling, and I have faith that it'll grow substantially in the coming years.


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## _MonSTeR_ (Mar 3, 2021)

I’m glad that the ecological costs of production have now shifted in the favour of EVs because for many years the production costs weren’t offset relative to an IC car, over the predicted lifetime of the vehicle. There was one article (pre YouTube) that basically showed how an old jeep was actually more ecologically friendly simply because folks loved the, and keep them running for years and years which despite shitty gas mileage means the production costs are much easier to offset because the things are kept alive by their fans for so long.


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## Protestheriphery (Mar 3, 2021)

Vocalist is very poppy. Also, first band of their level (at the time) that I remember being very internet-centric.


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## bulb (Mar 3, 2021)

guitaardvark said:


> I agree with you on a few points. Again, I'm also looking at it from a primarily pragmatic/ecological perspective before I consider how fun they are to drive. I will say that my first gen Nissan Leaf isn't exactly a hoot to drive, though I do enjoy my girlfriend's Model 3 and my parents' Model Y quite a bit (it definitely doesn't feel as disconnected from the road as a Prius or a Leaf, in my opinion, but I'm also not taking them to Laguna Seca). I seriously can't think of a better daily driver than a Model 3, since it balances performance, practicality, value, and sustainability.
> 
> As far as the ecological costs of production, Engineering Explained has a fantastic video that explains how the higher upfront emissions are offset over the lifetime of the vehicle. There's also an emerging market for clean lithium battery recycling, and I have faith that it'll grow substantially in the coming years.


I agree the Model 3 is a fantastic daily for most people, my brother has one and loves it. For me, living in an apt, it doesn't work so well as I can't easily charge it, and the chargers still take a while to use. So it's more of an infrastructure problem right now. If I had a house and could just leave it charging at home, I'd likely have a Taycan as a daily.


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## Xaios (Mar 4, 2021)

bulb said:


> So it's more of an infrastructure problem right now.


This. For myself, I live in northern Canada. There's precisely one Tesla in the Yukon, and buddy admits that he basically bought it on a lark. As much as I like EVs, it'll be a long time before the infrastructure exists here for them to be viable. You need something here that can drive long distances on one tank of gas, and EVs just don't have the range yet.

And yeah, the charging speed thing is also an issue. If I want to leave the territory, I'm looking at driving for at least a day and a half. With a gas vehicle, I can just stop in any one-horse town and fill it up. With an EV, I'd be sitting around forever waiting for it to charge, and I'd be doing so in shorter distance intervals because there's no EV yet made that can go as far as my old gas engine car can on one tank. Hopefully Toyota's new solid state battery tech changes things in that regard.


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## X1X (Mar 4, 2021)

Can't we all just discuss Yngwie's string heighth again?


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## bostjan (Mar 4, 2021)

X1X said:


> Can't we all just discuss Yngwie's string heighth again?


Yes, as long as it pertains to electric vehicles' battery lifeth.


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## lurè (Mar 5, 2021)

X1X said:


> Can't we all just discuss Yngwie's string heighth again?


Yngwie wears leather pants and has ultra Jumbo scalopped frets, he can have all the string height he wants.

Is periphery the hydrogen engine of metal?


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## Soya (Mar 5, 2021)

More like Malmsteen is the fossil fuel of guitar


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## narad (Mar 5, 2021)

Why hasn't the Honda E had more commercial success when it's cuter than Priuses and Teslas (and Monuments and Tesseract)?


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## ArtDecade (Mar 5, 2021)

lurè said:


> Is periphery the hydrogen engine of metal?



Nah. They are more like the backed-up septic system of a double wide.


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## bulb (Mar 5, 2021)

narad said:


> Why hasn't the Honda E had more commercial success when it's cuter than Priuses and Teslas (and Monuments and Tesseract)?



I don’t think it’s available in the US for one? And apparently, as good as it looks, it’s not quite as competitive a car as others in its class and price range. But don’t get me wrong, I want one off of looks alone.


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## chipchappy (Mar 5, 2021)

bulb said:


> I don’t think it’s available in the US for one? And apparently, as good as it looks, it’s not quite as competitive a car as others in its class and price range. But don’t get me wrong, I want one off of looks alone.



I keep checking in to see if the children are still bickering and all I see is boring car stuff

didn't _you_ make the car thread in off topic? Some of us are trying to watch people argue about your band here!


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## nightlight (Mar 5, 2021)

I think another way to look at Periphefy's success is first-mover advantage. They were pretty much the first band I heard of playing "djent", and it helped that their style wasn't derivative of Meshuggah. 

In that regard, we see that with most bands throughout history, the innovators usually fared far better than "the clones" that inevitably followed. Not saying Tesseract, Monuments, etc are clones of Periphefy, since Meshuggah are the real pioneers of djent IMHO. But Periphery did their own thing and they did it firsr, which is why they are better recognised than other bands playing in that style. 

It's also a more accessible style for many people, since it has more melodic and maybe even pop-ish elements, whereas Meshuggah is as aggressive as death metal in terms of the vocal style and riffage.


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## narad (Mar 6, 2021)

bulb said:


> I don’t think it’s available in the US for one? And apparently, as good as it looks, it’s not quite as competitive a car as others in its class and price range. But don’t get me wrong, I want one off of looks alone.



Ah, didn't realize it was JP only. To be honest, not seeing many of them around here either (all Toyotas or Porches), but it's the first 4-door practical car I've been able to get excited about in a while (off of looks alone).


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## StevenC (Mar 6, 2021)

narad said:


> Ah, didn't realize it was JP only. To be honest, not seeing many of them around here either (all Toyotas or Porches), but it's the first 4-door practical car I've been able to get excited about in a while (off of looks alone).


It's in the UK now too, but all Hondas are relatively expensive here.


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## budda (Mar 6, 2021)

A honda that looks like a '99 vw golf. Interesting.


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## bulb (Mar 6, 2021)

chipchappy said:


> I keep checking in to see if the children are still bickering and all I see is boring car stuff
> 
> didn't _you_ make the car thread in off topic? Some of us are trying to watch people argue about your band here!



sorry I just like cars a lot


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## nightlight (Mar 6, 2021)

bulb said:


> sorry I just like cars a lot



Maybe you guys need real "commercial success" by writing a jingle.

"Honda EEEEVOOOO
Now in the Ooh Ess"


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## InCasinoOut (Mar 6, 2021)

nightlight said:


> Maybe you guys need real "commercial success" by writing a jingle.
> 
> "Honda EEEEVOOOO
> Now in the Ooh Ess"


I think you mean _djingle_


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## nightlight (Mar 6, 2021)

InCasinoOut said:


> I think you mean _djingle_



I hope Bulb doesn't approach Honda and keep saying, "I want to right right you a d-jingle. No, you don't understand me, I want to write you a d-jingle."

Hey, maybe we could have a Periphery Christmas album. 

Djingle Bells
Djingle Bell Rock
Djing-a-lala Djing-a-lala

I can just imagine parents looking disapprovingly at it in the stores and Mr Record Company Man heavily promoting it.


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## Merrekof (Mar 6, 2021)

Maybe because the Periphery guys have the marketing part nailed down as well the musical part?

I know next to nothing about djent or prog or all of these bands. These guys are obviously good songwriters and musicians, that's what got them famous in the first place. They write stuff that is catchy and easily to listen to. Now they are known well enough to get endorsed. Me, who knows nothing about Periphery, suddenly sees social media throwing ads my way. Ads about, Bare Knuckle pickups, Jackson guitars, Dimarzio, Ibanez, Seymour Duncan, PRS, Darkglass, Dingwall and Peavey. This all adds up to their popularity because I'm interested about this guitar gear. Next thing I know I'm watching a Rick Beato video on breaking down Periphery's song Marigold. Or a video explaining how they set up their Axe-fx's. Periphery gets likes from everywhere this way and when they release a new song, I'll probably listen to it on youtube or spotify because I'm curious. And I don't even like djent! Now I own Jake Bowen's Ibanez and a Dingwall comb with a Darglass preamp, partially because of Periphery.

No seriously, Misha Mansoor sounds like a salesman when talking about his gear. 
No hate at all, I actually admire the guys for it. They got where I wanted to be when I first picked up the guitar.


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