# Tube head + attenuator for bedroom playing; overkill?



## GÜMERSINDO (Feb 28, 2018)

Hello there. The title thread says it all, but let´s elaborate a bit. For the last year I´ve been using a laney irt studio with a 2x12 cab just for home practice purposes, but as we have dealed in previous posts, these el84 powered amplifiers aren´t the best choice when it comes to low tunings and distorted sounds.
For that reason I´m flirting with the idea of selling the laney and buy a 100-120w tube head and an attenuator in order of getting the depth and feel of tube amps without insane volumes.

What do you think? I know, many of you are going to suggest going to the modeling route which I took years before; my main rig is a pod hd with torpedo ir´s through powered monitors. But having a bigger tube head with a cab is a better option if the ocassion of playing in a full band arises, don´t you think?

btw. sorry for my crappy english.


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## diagrammatiks (Feb 28, 2018)

i think the amp has a volume knob


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## DudeManBrother (Feb 28, 2018)

Running most amps now a days at bedroom volumes is not an issue. Instead of a dedicated attenuator, grab an eq pedal. They can be used as an attenuator to a useful degree ( the mxr can do -12 dB roughly) which helps if low power draw causes boxiness in the particular amp you grab. Plus you can further shape the post gain sound which goes a long way in getting great tone.


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## DarthV (Feb 28, 2018)

Guess it comes down to what volumes you can play at. Whisper/TV volumes? Good luck getting the speaker cab actually being pushed enough to sound right. If you can play with the master at 1, then you should be golden. No real need for an attenuator if you're using a modern high gain tube amp, all of the gain and most of the tone is going to be coming from the preamp anyways.


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## GÜMERSINDO (Feb 28, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> i think the amp has a volume knob



Really? hehe,


DudeManBrother said:


> Running most amps now a days at bedroom volumes is not an issue. Instead of a dedicated attenuator, grab an eq pedal. They can be used as an attenuator to a useful degree ( the mxr can do -12 dB roughly) which helps if low power draw causes boxiness in the particular amp you grab. Plus you can further shape the post gain sound which goes a long way in getting great tone.



I´ve heard always of people of using an eq. for boosting, not as an attenuator. It´s interesting, I´ve to do some research about it.


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## GÜMERSINDO (Feb 28, 2018)

DarthV said:


> Guess it comes down to what volumes you can play at. Whisper/TV volumes? Good luck getting the speaker cab actually being pushed enough to sound right. If you can play with the master at 1, then you should be golden. No real need for an attenuator if you're using a modern high gain tube amp, all of the gain and most of the tone is going to be coming from the preamp anyways.



Then, if I grab some 6505/5150 (120/100) type of amp I could play at TV volumes? My cab has two V30; I think those speakers need certain levels of volume to sound good, right?


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## Womb raider (Feb 28, 2018)

Although I have not tried this method, using an EQ to lower the volume would just act as another volume control before the preamp. I guess this could work if you are just concerned about quiet volume, but I doubt that the tone would be all that great at low volumes, especially for low tunings.
An attenuator is like a bridge between the amp and speaker and reduces power to the speaker allowing you to drive the amp harder. I have used attenuators before to get bedroom volumes out of high watt amps, but the tone suck was awful IMO.
Really, your best best if you're looking for great tone at low volumes would be to get a low wattage amp (1 or 5w) that you can actually push a bit.


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## GÜMERSINDO (Feb 28, 2018)

Womb raider said:


> Really, your best best if you're looking for great tone at low volumes would be to get a low wattage amp (1 or 5w) that you can actually push a bit.



Like I posted above I have a low watt amp, but I can´t get a good tone from this. It´s to muddy/mid rangey.


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## DarthV (Feb 28, 2018)

GÜMERSINDO said:


> Then, if I grab some 6505/5150 (120/100) type of amp I could play at TV volumes? My cab has two V30; I think those speakers need certain levels of volume to sound good, right?




Guess it depends on how well you can dial it in. Using an EQ in the loop can help quite a bit. I have a couple really good amps and a Kemper, at low volume (TV levels) the IR route just sounds better to me. You don't have to crank, or even get to jamming volumes, to have a high gain amp to come alive, but you need _some_.

Maybe I'm just spoiled by my Kemper??


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## Womb raider (Feb 28, 2018)

GÜMERSINDO said:


> Like I posted above I have a low watt amp, but I can´t get a good tone from this. It´s to muddy/mid rangey.


Surely there are plenty of decent low wattage amps out there that could satisfy you. I've owned an Ironball, Mark V 25, Mini Rectifier and an EVH lbx. I was able to dial in a decent tone at low volume (tv volume) for all of them through either a 2x12 or 4x12.
If you really want a good compromise, I would suggest looking at an EVH 5150 iii 50 watt. Pick your flavor of 6L6 or EL34. Great bedroom volume tones and has plenty of headroom to be cranked in a band setting.


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## DudeManBrother (Feb 28, 2018)

Womb raider said:


> Although I have not tried this method, using an EQ to lower the volume would just act as another volume control before the preamp. I guess this could work if you are just concerned about quiet volume, but I doubt that the tone would be all that great at low volumes, especially for low tunings.
> An attenuator is like a bridge between the amp and speaker and reduces power to the speaker allowing you to drive the amp harder. I have used attenuators before to get bedroom volumes out of high watt amps, but the tone suck was awful IMO.
> Really, your best best if you're looking for great tone at low volumes would be to get a low wattage amp (1 or 5w) that you can actually push a bit.


Actually, you want to run the EQ in the effects loop so it attenuates the volume after the gain stages, and leaves them alone.


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## wakjob (Feb 28, 2018)

Bang on advice from all the above.
They all hit the nail on the head.

Power STAGE distortion from an amp is mostly
a myth in modern high gain amps.

If you do decide to get a big huge arena sized 
tube amp, then there are a couple of other ways 
to reign the volume in a bit.

My fav... a 12au7 in the phase inverter.
And/or any pedal with a volume control like
an EQ works the same.

But probably the best tried and true way
would be to use a load-box, then re-amp it
with a separate power amp. (Fryette PowerStation)

Sounds redundant, but some amps just have 
that all or nothing master volume control
where .05 is barely audible, and 1 is knocking 
the walls down.


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## Womb raider (Feb 28, 2018)

DudeManBrother said:


> Actually, you want to run the EQ in the effects loop so it attenuates the volume after the gain stages, and leaves them alone.


Ok, but that's not really what attenuating is which dissipating the power after the power amp section but before the speakers. Essentially, you are just adding another master volume control in the chain before the power amp. I suppose you could EQ out some of the thinness of the tone, but that doesn't really solve the problem. Besides, more to point, if you're just using a 100w head for "bedroom" volumes, there's better tools for the job


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## mongey (Feb 28, 2018)

I had a THD hot plate for a while

and yeah you take off some volume with it . but to sound good the amp still has to be fairly loud and moving some air so depends on how loud you can get in your bedroom .if the speakers arnt doing their thing you just don't get that tone


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## Type_R3387 (Feb 28, 2018)

Womb raider said:


> Surely there are plenty of decent low wattage amps out there that could satisfy you. I've owned an Ironball, Mark V 25, Mini Rectifier and an EVH lbx. I was able to dial in a decent tone at low volume (tv volume) for all of them through either a 2x12 or 4x12.
> If you really want a good compromise, I would suggest looking at an EVH 5150 iii 50 watt. Pick your flavor of 6L6 or EL34. Great bedroom volume tones and has plenty of headroom to be cranked in a band setting.


As an owner of a 5150 iii (6L6 version), I can tell you this man speaks the truth. It is a killer amp at a great price point and can usually be found used for a decent price. They sound good at bedroom volumes and absolutely menacing in a band setting. Try one out if you get an opportunity to do so!


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## DudeManBrother (Feb 28, 2018)

Womb raider said:


> Ok, but that's not really what attenuating is which dissipating the power after the power amp section but before the speakers. Essentially, you are just adding another master volume control in the chain before the power amp. I suppose you could EQ out some of the thinness of the tone, but that doesn't really solve the problem. Besides, more to point, if you're just using a 100w head for "bedroom" volumes, there's better tools for the job


The word attenuate means to weaken in force or intensity. I’m not talking about how a particular product achieves its attenuation, I’m simply saying that an MXR 10 band not only provides a useful *post gain stages* EQ from the effects loop; but with the gain and volume sliders, does in fact attenuate the volume in cases where the master volume is too touchy. If you have a useful master volume, then the 10 bands are useful for shaping the low volume tone. If the master seems to jump to 100 watts at “1”, and sounds boxy any lower; then you can lower the gain and/or volume sliders to overcome that as well.


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## Womb raider (Feb 28, 2018)

DudeManBrother said:


> The word attenuate means to weaken in force or intensity. I’m not talking about how a particular product achieves its attenuation, I’m simply saying that an MXR 10 band not only provides a useful *post gain stages* EQ from the effects loop; but with the gain and volume sliders, does in fact attenuate the volume in cases where the master volume is too touchy. If you have a useful master volume, then the 10 bands are useful for shaping the low volume tone. If the master seems to jump to 100 watts at “1”, and sounds boxy any lower; then you can lower the gain and/or volume sliders to overcome that as well.


Yes, it is attenuating volume but it is not an "attenuator" as you referred to it a few posts above. Maybe its just semantics at this point, but I hardly see what difference adding another volume control or even an eq before the power amp does to get power to the speaker, hence decent tone.
But tone is obviously subjective. If it sounds good to you, then that's all that matters.


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## Hollowway (Mar 1, 2018)

Typically, higher wattage amps give more punch and lows, meaning that they will sound better at low volume levels. Low wattage amps are only a tiny but quieter, but not punchy.


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## mnemonic (Mar 1, 2018)

I guess if you’re into rock or blues or something where powertube saturation is considered desirable, a low wattage amp (1 to 20 Watts) is a good idea as you can get the poweramp distorting without pushing unbearable volume levels. But for low tuned modern metal tones, this is a recipe for a loose muddy tone without punch or depth. 

A lot of that punch and depth comes from a clean, high headroom poweramp. Big transformers also likely play a big role. 

I play a 100 watt Mesa Dual Rectifier in my bedroom and while I do usually play louder than tv volumes, I don’t really have a problem getting good tones. The master volume (with FX Loop bypassed) is very touchy at low volumes though. Turning on the FX Loop so I can use the output control on the front makes it easier to balance volumes. Then an eq in the loop to counter the tone change from the loop being on, and to add a bit more control over the frequency response, is useful. 

The eq is less and less necessary as the volume goes up, but it’s desirable for bedroom volumes. 

Some amps have much nicer master volumes though. My Fryette 2/50/2’s master is very smooth and easy to get to the perfect volume. 

An attenuator I would not really consider for a modern master volume metal amp. For an old non-master volume Marshall or something, where you want powertube saturation, yeah sure. But not for high gain amps. 

It doesn’t mean you can’t, but I think you’ll have a lot less benefit than you’d expect, it will change the tone, whether that change is desirable or not is down to preference. 



GÜMERSINDO said:


> Then, if I grab some 6505/5150 (120/100) type of amp I could play at TV volumes? My cab has two V30; I think those speakers need certain levels of volume to sound good, right?



This is another reason (one of three) why an attenuator won’t get you the same sound as a loud amp. at whisper levels, that speaker isn’t moving much, and it does react differently when driven loudly. Doesn’t mean it has to be, to sound good though. I have a v30 and k100 in my cab and it sounds fine without having to blow the windows out. 

The second reason an attenuator will change the sound is down to the reactance of its load. Each speaker has a different impedance curve and this greatly affects the sound. The dimensions of the cabinet also affect this. The impedance curve simulated by the attenuator or reactive load box will likely not be the same curve. 

The third reason is down to the fletcher Munson curve, basically how our ears hear the frequency response dependent on volume. If you take two sounds, both exactly the same, play one quiet and one loud, they will sound to our ear, quite different. The louder one people will find better sounding. This is a common problem in mixing and mastering. You have to be careful to make sure the tweaks you made to the mix didn’t just increase the volume without actually improving anything else.


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## GÜMERSINDO (Mar 1, 2018)

Thanks to everyone for the replies, the thread has been so clarifying. Now I´m ruling out the idea of a tube head and probably would pick a small ss poweramp (maybe magnum 44) to use with my POD or maybe some preamp type pedals (mooer, amt...), as I don´t wanna risk buying more expensive gear that I couldn´t use at home. 

For me loud volume isn´t a concern when it comes to disturb the neighbourgs as I live in a countryside, but the room where I play is a small storage full packaged of stuff, with all kind of reflections and also I have to play really close to the speakers, which is quite annoying. So I won´t dare to spend 1200 euros (EVH 50w) just for the sake of it.

If eventually I end up joining a band would consider again the tube head option.


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## laxu (Mar 2, 2018)

I've tried a lot of options over the years. Modern attenuators and load boxes may be better but this is based on what I had at the time:

Attenuator and 50W Marshall DSL50 into 2x12 cab. When you get at bedroom friendly attenuation levels like -16db I feel the sound gets worse and starts to lose definition, this was with the master volume around 5-6 which was the sweet spot for this amp. Attenuators to me work best at smaller attenuation levels which gets you the sweet spot at small gig volumes.
Same setup but using the attenuator as a load box fed into a solid-state amp and the same cab. Better control over volume, I felt this was a bit better.
Amp with London Power Power Scaling. This worked pretty great but is found in very few amps and is typically expensive. Still better at louder than bedroom volumes.
Good master volume. I'm not sure of the implementations, these were found in a Diezel Einstein combo and an Egnater Tourmaster 100 head. Gradual, sounded pretty good at low volume but not as good as Power Scaling. Still doesn't have quite the smoothness you get from poweramp drive.
Power reduction in the Egnater Tourmaster. It was switchable between 10/25/50/100W per channel and any of these settings didn't have much effect on volume but a noticeable effect in response and compression. Lower the wattage, the spongier the response and thus less suited for high gain sounds. I liked the lower gain settings for classic rock tones but preferred the high wattage for high gain and cleans.
Which brings me to what I use now: Modelers. I sold my tube amps after getting the Axe-Fx Standard because I felt I was able to get just as good sounds and more out of it. I now have an Axe-Fx 2 and a Yamaha THR100HD, both of which offer fantastic tones at any volume.

So to me a high end modeler is the way to go for low volume playing. I can understand that many haven't been satisfied with modelers in the past, neither was I but nowadays they are really very good.


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## chopeth (Mar 3, 2018)

5150III 50w es la mejor opción de largo tal y como te dicen, suena cojonudo a volumen de dormitorio, para toda la vida y todo terreno. También tengo el Ironball y va muy bien para casa, aunque no lo he probado con mi grupo.

Tengo un atenuador por ahí tirado de haber usado con un blackstar que tenía antes... caca de la vaca.


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## mnemonic (Mar 3, 2018)

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## GÜMERSINDO (Mar 3, 2018)

chopeth said:


> 5150III 50w es la mejor opción de largo tal y como te dicen, suena cojonudo a volumen de dormitorio, para toda la vida y todo terreno. También tengo el Ironball y va muy bien para casa, aunque no lo he probado con mi grupo.
> 
> Tengo un atenuador por ahí tirado de haber usado con un blackstar que tenía antes... caca de la vaca.


I know many users here play 5153 50w at home, but "bedroom level" is a relative term. As I said before, the room where I play isn´t well conditioned for playing and I have to stay really close to the speakers. To get an idea; when I play with the IRT Studio, at 1w, the volume of the lead channel (It doesn´t have master volume) is around 3, and is fucking loud and annoying as I have to keep stuck to the cab. So for me, to play at bedroom levels means playing really low.

BTW; does it really cut through the mix in a rehearsal context?


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## chopeth (Mar 4, 2018)

mnemonic said:


> ACK ack ackk!,
> 
> Ack aaack ack, ack ACK ACKKK ACKKK, Ackk ack ACK ACK ack-ack ACK ACK ACK. Ack ack ack Ack, aaack, ACK, ACK ACKKK ACK ACK ACKKKK ACKK ACK!!! ACK ack ack-ack ackk ack. Ack-ack, ack ACK ACKK Ackk? Ack, ACK ACK aack ACK ACK ACK ACK ack ack-ACK-ack ACK ACK ACK ack-ack ACK, ack ack ACK ACK ACKKK!!! Ack ack ackkkk-ack ACK ACK AAACK ACK ACK
> 
> ...



Agree



GÜMERSINDO said:


> I know many users here play 5153 50w at home, but "bedroom level" is a relative term. As I said before, the room where I play isn´t well conditioned for playing and I have to stay really close to the speakers. To get an idea; when I play with the IRT Studio, at 1w, the volume of the lead channel (It doesn´t have master volume) is around 3, and is fucking loud and annoying as I have to keep stuck to the cab. So for me, to play at bedroom levels means playing really low.
> 
> BTW; does it really cut through the mix in a rehearsal context?



When I say "bedroom level" I mean it, really, really low (dare to say even better than my ironball in spite of being 20w against 50w) and it definitely cuts through. I play through the 2x12 pairing cab and it literally kills my bandmate's Powerball 100 and 4x12


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## GÜMERSINDO (Mar 4, 2018)

Oh, that´s good then... GAS is growing in me now, hehe


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## FILTHnFEAR (Mar 6, 2018)

I played a 5153 50 watt a few weeks ago at GC. It sounded really good at low levels. And I mean quiet enough to not wake someone sleeping in the next room.


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## GÜMERSINDO (Mar 6, 2018)

I tune my guitars on D and B standard, does it work with detuned guitars or should I crank it a bit for low end tightness?

Is anyone using a 6505 (120w) at home, those are more affordable and easier to find good deals in the used market.


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## DudeManBrother (Mar 6, 2018)

GÜMERSINDO said:


> I tune my guitars on D and B standard, does it work with detuned guitars or should I crank it a bit for low end tightness?
> 
> Is anyone using a 6505 (120w) at home, those are more affordable and easier to find good deals in the used market.


Yes they work great a bedroom volumes. I rotate mine into home playing from time to time. It’s an affordable amp that absolutely ranks up with the greatest high gain amps of all time.


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## Jake (Mar 6, 2018)

GÜMERSINDO said:


> I tune my guitars on D and B standard, does it work with detuned guitars or should I crank it a bit for low end tightness?
> 
> Is anyone using a 6505 (120w) at home, those are more affordable and easier to find good deals in the used market.


Both my 5150ii and 5150iii are completely manageable and acceptable for bedroom usage. 

Now my Mesa Triple Rec on the other hand.....nope


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## budda (Mar 6, 2018)

Just Buy A 5150


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## chopeth (Mar 7, 2018)

GÜMERSINDO said:


> I tune my guitars on D and B standard, does it work with detuned guitars or should I crank it a bit for low end tightness?
> 
> Is anyone using a 6505 (120w) at home, those are more affordable and easier to find good deals in the used market.



I use it with 7 strings tuned to A standard, no need for anything, is tight as hell, even too tight. Get a 5153, they have new options like concentric pots and the el34 version which will make you see a lot of the old ones like mine at a ridiculous price second hand. There are a lot in guitarristas.info


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## GÜMERSINDO (Mar 7, 2018)

chopeth said:


> I use it with 7 strings tuned to A standard, no need for anything, is tight as hell, even too tight. Get a 5153, they have new options like concentric pots and the el34 version which will make you see a lot of the old ones like mine at a ridiculous price second hand. There are a lot in guitarristas.info


Cool, I´ll be starting the hunting as soons as I got rid some stuff I´m not gonna use anymore.


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## Jake (Mar 7, 2018)

chopeth said:


> I use it with 7 strings tuned to A standard, no need for anything, is tight as hell, even too tight. Get a 5153, they have new options like concentric pots and the el34 version which will make you see a lot of the old ones like mine at a ridiculous price second hand. There are a lot in guitarristas.info


Also this. I got my 100W 5153 for $500 . Pretty sure Guitar Center thought it was a 50W because they're morons but it's a win for me and the deals are out there.


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## GÜMERSINDO (Mar 7, 2018)

I´m getting even more convinced with every new post hehe.

Do any of you use some pedal as clean boost for your amp? I have an 808 and a Centaur, both work really with other amps I tried before but maybe these amps are tight enough to be boosted. I could sell some pedals to get some funds for the new amp. What do you think?


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## Jake (Mar 7, 2018)

GÜMERSINDO said:


> I´m getting even more convinced with every new post hehe.
> 
> Do any of you use some pedal as clean boost for your amp? I have an 808 and a Centaur, both work really with other amps I tried before but maybe these amps are tight enough to be boosted. I could sell some pedals to get some funds for the new amp. What do you think?


5153 definitely doesn't need a boost but I still use my 808 because I'm stuck in my ways


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## budda (Mar 7, 2018)

Jake said:


> 5153 definitely doesn't need a boost but I still use my 808 because I'm stuck in my ways



Some folks will say to boost any 5150, but this is the actual truth


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## NateFalcon (Mar 7, 2018)

Don’t be scared of 100+ watters-you’ll make it work...or you’ll feel at times like you don’t have enough which is where you’re at now. It’s nice to have the power when you need it live


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## DarthV (Mar 8, 2018)

GÜMERSINDO said:


> I´m getting even more convinced with every new post hehe.
> 
> Do any of you use some pedal as clean boost for your amp? I have an 808 and a Centaur, both work really with other amps I tried before but maybe these amps are tight enough to be boosted. I could sell some pedals to get some funds for the new amp. What do you think?



Guessing most of the people on this forum clean boost their tube amps, it's almost tradition


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## devastone (Mar 10, 2018)

GÜMERSINDO said:


> To get an idea; when I play with the IRT Studio, at 1w, the volume of the lead channel (It doesn´t have master volume) is around 3, and is fucking loud and annoying as I have to keep stuck to the cab. So for me, to play at bedroom levels means playing really low.



It never sounds good with your ear in the speaker, and I agree with everyone that has mentioned that the speakers aren't really working at super low volume levels. Might be better off with a modeler into some small monitors for super low volume practice. Just my <$0.02


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## budda (Mar 10, 2018)

devastone said:


> It never sounds good with your ear in the speaker, and I agree with everyone that has mentioned that the speakers aren't really working at super low volume levels. Might be better off with a modeler into some small monitors for super low volume practice. Just my <$0.02



For modern metal, you don't want the speaker working.


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## CapinCripes (Mar 10, 2018)

I got the 5153 2X12 combo and while "bedroom levels" are a relative term I can run it at half power on the blue channel with the volume knob up around 10 o clock without blowing all my doors off. Would it sound better cranked? oh definitely but It sounds really good either way. After all with a 5150 your not really aiming for power amp distortion because of the macho pre amp section.


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