# Guitars with "Spoke Wheel" truss rod



## eloann (Dec 30, 2016)

Hey,

I'm looking to get a couple reasonably affordable guitars next year. There's a few features I really want - some of them (such as locking tuners) can be upgrades.

One thing that can't be upgraded which I find extremely practical is the "Spoke Wheel" truss rod as used by

- Musicman
- Charvel
- EVH
- Sadowsky
- Fender American Elite
- Parker Nitefly
- Schecter Keith Merrow MKII
- Some ESP/LTD
- Some Chapman
- Some Jackson


I'm sure you guys know other builders who use it?


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## Ikke (Dec 30, 2016)

Jackson

edit: But it still seems like pretty rare thing to me.


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## laxu (Dec 30, 2016)

How often do you adjust the trussrod that taking off a cover and adjusting it (as on most guitars) is enough to make you want the spoke wheel type?


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## Ikke (Dec 30, 2016)

laxu said:


> How often do you adjust the trussrod that taking off a cover and adjusting it (as on most guitars) is enough to make you want the spoke wheel type?



From what I understand, touring, especially globally, can wreak havoc on the neck. For most non-traveling musicians, it's probably not an issue. 

However, how often you have to do, or don't do, something doesn't really matter when the overall design is just better. One less tool needed, more convenient location. The industrial design is there and that's all that matters.


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## cardinal (Dec 30, 2016)

Another thing to consider are builders who will use graphite rods in the neck. The guitars I've had with those have extremely stable necks that don't seem to need seasonal adjustment. I assume they wouldn't be phased by travel either. 

Vigier does one better by not using a truss rod at all (no tools needed now!). They use a laminate of carbon fiber to hold the neck stable.


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## Ikke (Dec 30, 2016)

cardinal said:


> Another thing to consider are builders who will use graphite rods in the neck. The guitars I've had with those have extremely stable necks that don't seem to need seasonal adjustment. I assume they wouldn't be phased by travel either.
> 
> Vigier does one better by not using a truss rod at all (no tools needed now!). They use a laminate of carbon fiber to hold the neck stable.



I mostly agree with this. However, graphite rods do not remove the need for a truss rod. Graphite rods, although they provide more stability, do not guarantee no bending. They just greatly(?) decrease the chance of bending. But, the chance of bending is still there.

Again, the frequency of needing to adjust the truss rod, nor the neck's tendency to bend, is what's important here. If it's possible for the neck to bend (especially for those guitarists that like a bit of bow in their neck), then a truss rod is needed. The possibility of neck bending (want or need) warrants the need of a truss rod. And, the pinwheel design is the best version right now.


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## eloann (Dec 30, 2016)

laxu said:


> How often do you adjust the trussrod that taking off a cover and adjusting it (as on most guitars) is enough to make you want the spoke wheel type?



Actually any covers are permanently off on every instrument I own for quicker access to the truss rod. Which doesn't alway look very pleasing.
This cuts down on the "removing the strings so you can remove the cover" bit.

Although I don't tour or even play guitar live (being mostly a bass player) the part of the world I live in sees significant weather changes and I found I do need to adjust my instruments regularly or the setup will become sub-standard. Even on my Dingwall basses which feature graphite reinforcement and are built flawlessly in a tough weather area.
I realize shorter scale lenght makes it slightly less of an issue on guitars but all things being equal I'd pick an easier to adjust one over a "traditionnal" design

As for Vigier's take, as much as I like forward-thinking approaches... what if your preferences aren't the same as the builder's and you'd like to adjust it - but can't?


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## marcwormjim (Dec 30, 2016)

I second Vigier - If anyone can produce a shred of evidence that one of their necks have ever required adjustment, I'll forfeit the recommendation.

That said, of course everyone has their own preferred relief - I suggest finding a Vigier to try, before you count them out. 

My personal preference (For every guitar I own) is to use a notched straight-edge to set the neck totally flat prior to lowering string height until it buzzes, before backing off a hair - What I try to achieve is note clarity from fret 7-onward (Granted, I use a light touch). From there, I introduce relief into the neck until buzz is minimized in or removed from frets 1-5. This assumes level frets and preferred nut height have also been achieved.

Yet my Vigier Shawn Lane required no such tweaking - They're one of the best, period.


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## thraxil (Dec 30, 2016)

Parker NiteFly. Always seemed like overkill to me since they don't need seasonal/weather adjustments; you only tweak them if you want a different setup.


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## eloann (Dec 30, 2016)

Thanks for the replies so far - I'll keep the list in the 1st post updated for reference.

For what it's worth I'm mostly looking at ~1K$ range guitars (with a possible exception for a used/deal Charvel Govan).


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## ImNotAhab (Dec 30, 2016)

The Schecter Keith Merrow mk II has it. Very handy indeed.


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## Jeffbro (Dec 30, 2016)

Ikke said:


> However, how often you have to do, or don't do, something doesn't really matter when the overall design is just better. One less tool needed, more convenient location. The industrial design is there and that's all that matters.



It's different, not necessarily better. You still need a tool to turn it, so you still need to carry a tool kit and unscrewing a truss cover takes 5 seconds.

More importantly it looks so ugly... so ugly


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## eloann (Dec 30, 2016)

Jeffbro said:


> It's different, not necessarily better. You still need a tool to turn it, so you still need to carry a tool kit and unscrewing a truss cover takes 5 seconds.



Except basically any tool can be used.

Finding the right imperial-sized wrench in the metric world can be quite painful (and probably the other way around). Better not misplace it.


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## Omura (Dec 30, 2016)

eloann said:


> Except basically any tool can be used.
> 
> Finding the right imperial-sized wrench in the metric world can be quite painful (and probably the other way around). Better not misplace it.



Buy a decent set of metric and imperial allen keys, and never have that problem again in life.

that being said, I do really really like the spoke wheel truss rods, and would love to see more of them on guitars.


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## Ikke (Dec 30, 2016)

Jeffbro said:


> It's different, not necessarily better. You still need a tool to turn it, so you still need to carry a tool kit and unscrewing a truss cover takes 5 seconds.
> 
> More importantly it looks so ugly... so ugly



By your own comment you're saying it's (functionally) better. What you said is "the traditional design takes one more step and takes a specific standardized tool for operation. Conversely, the pinwheel takes one less step and no particular standardized tool." Aesthetics aside, the pinwheel is functionally better. 

Unscrewing a truss rod is one more step that doesn't occur with the pinwheel design. Doesn't really matter if it takes 5 sec or 5 min. It's a step. Furthermore, for the pinwheel, all you need is anything that will fit in the hole. For the traditional design you need a specific tool to turn it.


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## Ikke (Dec 30, 2016)

eloann said:


> Thanks for the replies so far - I'll keep the list in the 1st post updated for reference.
> 
> For what it's worth I'm mostly looking at ~1K$ range guitars (with a possible exception for a used/deal Charvel Govan).



Back on topic...

I'm an ESP guy, and as far as I know, the only current production guitar with a pinwheel in your price range is the ESP E-II ST-1 (top) & ST-2 (bottom)


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## eloann (Dec 30, 2016)

Ikke said:


> Back on topic...
> 
> I'm an ESP guy, and as far as I know, the only current production guitar with a pinwheel in your price range is the ESP E-II ST-1 (top) & ST-2 (bottom)



I'm actually considering the strattier version, swapping out the Fluence pickups out of activophobia
However the neck is described as "Thin U" which may not be to my liking. Must try.






I'm almost definitely getting one of those Charvels (again swapping the pickups, because they clearly should be black) for dropped tunings


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## Ikke (Dec 30, 2016)

eloann said:


> I'm actually considering the strattier version, swapping out the Fluence pickups out of activophobia
> However the neck is described as "Thin U" which may not be to my liking. Must try.
> 
> I'm almost definitely getting one of those Charvels (again swapping the pickups, because they clearly should be black) for dropped tunings



Thin U shape is my favorite grip shape. It fits great for me as I have large hands and long fingers. All of my ESP's have it. Don't know if it's helpful but here's the diagram of the grip shapes. Obviously, playing is believing, but at least it gives you an idea of the shape.


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## Jeffbro (Dec 30, 2016)

Ikke said:


> By your own comment you're saying it's (functionally) better. What you said is "the traditional design takes one more step and takes a specific standardized tool for operation. Conversely, the pinwheel takes one less step and no particular standardized tool." Aesthetics aside, the pinwheel is functionally better.
> 
> Unscrewing a truss rod is one more step that doesn't occur with the pinwheel design. Doesn't really matter if it takes 5 sec or 5 min. It's a step. Furthermore, for the pinwheel, all you need is anything that will fit in the hole. For the traditional design you need a specific tool to turn it.



Minimally functionally better + aesthetically worse = better overall? That would be your opinion

Why don't we all get rid of back covers? They don't do anything and takes a few seconds to unscrew every few months or so. Because aesthetics doesn't matter right?


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## Ikke (Dec 30, 2016)

Jeffbro said:


> Minimally functionally better + aesthetically worse = better overall? That would be your opinion
> 
> Why don't we all get rid of back covers? They don't do anything and takes a few seconds to unscrew every few months or so. Because aesthetics doesn't matter right?



I was correcting myself above when I said it's functionally better. You are correct that aesthetics are an opinion. That's why I said, "Aesthetics aside..." 

But, I don't want to argue anymore. The point of the thread was to give this guy some guitars with pinwheels. So, let's move on and do that instead. He likes them, so let's help him out.


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## eloann (Dec 31, 2016)

Well. I just ordered a Sterling Cutlass which are on sale for 349$ (before shipping & taxes to me) until today. This should cover the "single coil guitar" thing.

Locking tuners and spoke wheel included. There's ample room in the budget for a pickup change down the road if the stock aren't great.


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## Ikke (Dec 31, 2016)

eloann said:


> Well. I just ordered a Sterling Cutlass which are on sale for 349$ (before shipping & taxes to me) until today. This should cover the "single coil guitar" thing.
> 
> Locking tuners and spoke wheel included. There's ample room in the budget for a pickup change down the road if the stock aren't great.



Looks great!!! What are you looking for now? Still strats or looking for some other types?


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## eloann (Dec 31, 2016)

Ikke said:


> Looks great!!! What are you looking for now? Still strats or looking for some other types?



Bearing in mind a Charvel will very likely join that leaves a 7 string (though I'll also be looking at the Strandberg Singularity & upcoming cheaper line), or possibly a B/Drop A 6-er. I've actually briefly owned a Schecter KM-7 MKII which should have fit the bill perfectly but couldn't deal with the thinner-than-air neck.
Maybe down the line a guitar dedicated to open tunings but I doubt there are many alternatives to the Taylor T5Z Classic I have in mind for that.

Timing will obviously depend on some resales - more for room than money.


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## Ikke (Dec 31, 2016)

eloann said:


> Bearing in mind a Charvel will very likely join that leaves a 7 string (though I'll also be looking at the Strandberg Singularity & upcoming cheaper line), or possibly a B/Drop A 6-er. I've actually briefly owned a Schecter KM-7 MKII which should have fit the bill perfectly but couldn't deal with the thinner-than-air neck.
> Maybe down the line a guitar dedicated to open tunings but I doubt there are many alternatives to the Taylor T5Z Classic I have in mind for that.
> 
> Timing will obviously depend on some resales - more for room than money.



It seems you've got a list going on already haha. So the plan is to have a different guitar for every tuning?


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## eloann (Dec 31, 2016)

Ikke said:


> It seems you've got a list going on already haha. So the plan is to have a different guitar for every tuning?



Kind of (every tuning I use that is). Obviously I can retune a string (i.e. drop tunings or DADFAD / DADGAD) no problem but I've had years switching back and forth and sideways on a single guitar and I'd rather simplify my life now that I'm getting a bit more serious about home studio / producing. The Variax solution didn't work out for me.


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## Ikke (Dec 31, 2016)

eloann said:


> Kind of (every tuning I use that is). Obviously I can retune a string (i.e. drop tunings or DADFAD / DADGAD) no problem but I've had years switching back and forth and sideways on a single guitar and I'd rather simplify my life now that I'm getting a bit more serious about home studio / producing. The Variax solution didn't work out for me.



I completely get where you're coming from. All of my guitars/ESPs are tuned to different tunings as well. My main 7 is in ADADGBE and then I two more 7's in G Standard and Drop F#. My 6 is in Drop C. I'm looking for an ESP Horizon CTM to tune to something weird or I may tune it to Drop C and then tune my other Horizon to something weird. I'm also doing home recording stuff.


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## yellowv (Dec 31, 2016)

Every guitar should have this. Best design ever. Also the Warmoth side adjustment rules.


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## yellowv (Dec 31, 2016)

Ikke said:


> I completely get where you're coming from. All of my guitars/ESPs are tuned to different tunings as well. My main 7 is in ADADGBE and then I two more 7's in G Standard and Drop F#. My 6 is in Drop C. I'm looking for an ESP Horizon CTM to tune to something weird or I may tune it to Drop C and then tune my other Horizon to something weird. I'm also doing home recording stuff.



I hate SG's, but those Vipers are badass.


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## Ikke (Dec 31, 2016)

yellowv said:


> I hate SG's, but those Vipers are badass.



Thank you! I also loathe SG's lol. But, the Viper SL7 is my favorite guitar ever. The Horizon is a super duper close 2nd.


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## Hollowway (Dec 31, 2016)

Fast Guitars is a custom builder, and he has pinwheels that he locates within the FB. His prices are higher than your budget, but it's a cool design and something to keep in mind.


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## ElRay (Jan 1, 2017)

Jeffbro said:


> Minimally functionally better + aesthetically worse = better overall? That would be your opinion


As is yours. Hypocrite much?


Jeffbro said:


> Why don't we all get rid of back covers? They don't do anything and takes a few seconds to unscrew every few months or so. Because aesthetics doesn't matter right?


And the inevitable non-secuiter. 

It's times like these in miss Ye Olde Neg Rep for the arrogant, self-absorbed, low post count, indistinguishable from some 12-year-old posting on Mom&Dad's computer instead of doing homework, newbies. If you want everything to conform with you're view of "right" and adhere to everyday, joe-blow, guitar norms, hang out on UG or some standard forum.


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## feraledge (Jan 1, 2017)

Truss wheel is one of my absolute favorite guitar innovations and sadly none of my guitars have one. The question is often "how much are you even having to use it?" After having owned a guitar with one and many without, "once" feels sufficient enough. But I don't use AC much, so summer can mean a little bit of flex and since I like my necks fairly flat, it's enough that the convenience is awesome. 

I would like to submit the following evidence in favor of Ikke's opinions. 
Exhibit A: 




Action that low and a neck that flat certainly merit Ikke's robust opinions on the matter.


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## Lemons (Jan 1, 2017)

Seems like no one has mentioned the structural advantage of having a spoke truss rod. In order to make enough room to seat, access and adjust a standard truss rod nut, you have to remove a large amount of wood from a potentially weak spot in the neck to headstock transition area. While I'm not saying that all guitars with a standard truss rod design are about to break from a slight knock, but the structural security of the spoke adjustable system makes it a worthwhile design choice.


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## Petar Bogdanov (Jan 1, 2017)

Nut-access truss rod adjustment is awkward on a seven string dot org in the first place, unless you like denting up your D string with an allen wrench and then not being able to pull it out. 

This is an upgrade, I wish more seven strings dot org were getting it.


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## vansinn (Jan 1, 2017)

IMMSMR, Pat Hufunquotable use those trusses too, or at least did.

BTW, there are also trusses that are adjustable from the side of the neck.
I've such a guitar since around '87; never any issues - but it must be added this [German mountain maple] neck is very stable, requiring very little adjustment over the years.

If interested in such arrangements, do check out how the gear is made; potentially could become an issue over time.


Not sure about this: I've read that, as spokewheel (and sideways) trusses aren't going all the way up into the headstock, but only to about 2nd fret, this could result in a stronger neck-head transition region.


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## eloann (Jan 1, 2017)

vansinn said:


> IMMSMR, Pat Hufunquotable use those trusses too, or at least did.
> 
> BTW, there are also trusses that are adjustable from the side of the neck.
> I've such a guitar since around '87; never any issues - but it must be added this [German mountain maple] neck is very stable, requiring very little adjustment over the years.
> ...



I think I know who you mean (but why is his name blocked?!)




I just remembered he did yesterday - and he happens to live half an hour from me. A bit pricey for me but he makes great stuff.

I do know about side adjustable truss rods as offered by Warmoth. I seem to remember it's only for fine tuning - which ideally is all one would ever need.


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## eloann (Jan 1, 2017)

Ikke said:


> I completely get where you're coming from. All of my guitars/ESPs are tuned to different tunings as well. My main 7 is in ADADGBE and then I two more 7's in G Standard and Drop F#



Those 7s look great. Can't find them on ESP's website - is it a discontinued model?

Maybe you should try Karnivool's tuning(s)


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## Ikke (Jan 1, 2017)

eloann said:


> Those 7s look great. Can't find them on ESP's website - is it a discontinued model?
> 
> Maybe you should try Karnivool's tuning(s)



Mostly. The red one is my custom order model. Made for me and only me.  http://www.espguitars.com/photos/2355710

For the green (ver. 2) and black (ver. 1) ones, not only are they discontinued models, but they were only for the Japanese domestic market. http://www.espguitars.co.jp/original/viper/vp_sl7.html

My first time hearing of Karnivool. I looked up those tunings and those seem weird, a little too weird for me haha. I've been thinking of tuning it to be an Am7 chord in some capacity.


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## Ikke (Jan 1, 2017)

feraledge said:


> Truss wheel is one of my absolute favorite guitar innovations and sadly none of my guitars have one. The question is often "how much are you even having to use it?" After having owned a guitar with one and many without, "once" feels sufficient enough. But I don't use AC much, so summer can mean a little bit of flex and since I like my necks fairly flat, it's enough that the convenience is awesome.
> 
> Action that low and a neck that flat certainly merit Ikke's robust opinions on the matter.



I also do not turn on the AC in the summer, unless I have guests. And when I posted that, I was honestly surprised at how surprised some people were about my action. I assumed when people said they played with low action, they played that low  Also, recessed bridges for the win 

Spoke Wheel Truss Rods, Natural Satin (Oiled) Necks, Recessed Bridges - all very awesome additions to any guitar.


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## feraledge (Jan 1, 2017)

Ikke said:


> I also do not turn on the AC in the summer, unless I have guests. And when I posted that, I was honestly surprised at how surprised some people were about my action. I assumed when people said they played with low action, they played that low  Also, recessed bridges for the win
> 
> Spoke Wheel Truss Rods, Natural Satin (Oiled) Necks, Recessed Bridges - all very awesome additions to any guitar.



I believe you have redefined low action. I like low, but not as low as other people. Fragile ecology of my preferred set ups, hence liking truss wheels so much and also why truss rod covers aren't a big thing for me. Oiled necks, on the other hand, necessity.


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## eloann (Jan 3, 2017)

Adding to the list : Acacia Titan

Also made as a 7 string, though no pictures seem to exist






Can't seem to edit my 1st post anymore for some reason :/


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## forshagesan (Jan 3, 2017)

I love them/use them whenever possible. I also build 7's


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## eloann (Jan 5, 2017)

Another addition to the list: Balaguer Thicket BB


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## Andromalia (Jan 5, 2017)

Is that a production guitar ?


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## Cloudy (Jan 5, 2017)

I absolutely LOVE the spokewheel trussrods. I had a silhouette with one a few years ago and really haven't looked backed. They're insanely convenient, never strip out like regular trussrods, and dont require specific tools. 

I started building guitars last year and I put them in all my necks, only real downside is that theyre quite a lot thicker than usual trussrods (at least the stewmac ones are) and they're trickier to route/build into necks. None of that is really on the burden of a player though.



Hollowway said:


> Fast Guitars is a custom builder, and he has pinwheels that he locates within the FB. His prices are higher than your budget, but it's a cool design and something to keep in mind.



Ive tried a few of his builds with the trussrod access on the 21st fret its really cool and completely unnoticable while you're playing. Probably my favourite install for the spokewheel trussrods.


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## eloann (Jan 5, 2017)

Andromalia said:


> Is that a production guitar ?



There are production runs on pre-order basis and it's also available with a few custom options - actually potentially for less since the Evertune and Fluence are the most expensive upcharges


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## LordCashew (Jan 5, 2017)

Like many others in the thread, it's not a seven string but...






Courtesy of Agile.


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## LordCashew (Jan 5, 2017)

Ikke said:


>



Sorry for the brief hijack but does that Stream have an ebony board? Was that also a JDM model?


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## Ikke (Jan 5, 2017)

LordIronSpatula said:


> Sorry for the brief hijack but does that Stream have an ebony board? Was that also a JDM model?



Yes the stream has an ebony board. All the rest are rosewood. It is not a JDM/Original series model. Standard E-II model http://www.espguitars.com/products/...drms?category_id=1968292-stream-series-basses


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## ampjunkie (Jan 19, 2017)

marcwormjim said:


> I second Vigier - If anyone can produce a shred of evidence that one of their necks have ever required adjustment, I'll forfeit the recommendation.
> 
> That said, of course everyone has their own preferred relief - I suggest finding a Vigier to try, before you count them out.
> 
> ...



I've played a Klein Electric Guitar that does not have a truss rod -- the neck is solid Guatemalan Rosewood. They are already designed for the proper relief with 010 strings. It's been through humid, tropical environments close to the equator and cold winters in Canada. And yet. no change in relief -- and perfect action. Rock solid.


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## SwanWings (Jan 20, 2017)

Omura said:


> Buy a decent set of metric and imperial allen keys, and never have that problem again in life.
> 
> that being said, I do really really like the spoke wheel truss rods, and would love to see more of them on guitars.



I'd like to point out that not all truss rods are adjusted with allen wrenchs. I have two guitars that use what looks a little like a socket style wrench. I'm not sure, but I feel like finding a set of socket style wrenches that would fit conveniently in the small space of the truss rod adjustment pocket wouldn't be as easy...


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## noob_pwn (Jan 25, 2017)

I leave my truss rod covers off or if i have a guitar built to spec I do it without a truss rod cover, seems to be pretty convenient and it's not an adjustment you need to make often, so I wouldn't fret too much if you find a guitar you like that doesn't have that feature


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## cardinal (Jan 25, 2017)

Yeah, I typically leave the cover off and have the necessary wrench/key in the case for each guitar. It's a very quick adjustment (except for the Charvel which needs the neck taken off, but that thing's so awesome it's worth the inconvenience).


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## KR250 (Mar 8, 2017)

Cloudy said:


> I started building guitars last year and I put them in all my necks, only real downside is that theyre quite a lot thicker than usual trussrods (at least the stewmac ones are) and they're trickier to route/build into necks.


I started building my own guitars with the spoke wheel as well due to lack of production options. The Stewmac truss rods are not great, I did two. The ones on eBay are much thinner and don't require as deep of a route, that way you can get a thinner neck. Wish I had used them sooner, they also look much nicer.

Search for: "for Guitar Spoke Wheel Guitar truss rod 460mm 18in Two Way Dual Action"


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