# Fishman Fluence Modern or EMG 81x/60x



## djent000

Wanting to get a set of actives because I don't have any actives at the moment, which one of these would handle drop tunings better on a 6 string?
Also which one is better in a general sense? The Fishman's are more modern and a completely different build and the dual voicing seems cool. Which would do better cleans?


----------



## GuitarBizarre

It doesn't matter what *WE* think is better, what matters is what sound *YOU'RE* looking for, and then we can tell you which pickup will get closer to that.

Please describe your ideal distorted and clean sounds. Links would be helpful. 

Also, what gear are you using? You still won't get close to that sound if you're playing through a Fender Twin and the sound you're after was made using a Mesa or a 5150.


----------



## Quiet Coil

Both would handle low tunings just fine. The 81x/60x combo I had in my 8-string were great, I only changed them out because I missed the ability to split the coils. Enter the Fluence Modern set... they don't blow my mind or anything but they are a great compromise between active and passive characteristics.

If nothing else the Fishmans are much more versatile (if your willing to have them wired up to take advantage of all that they're capable of).


----------



## djent000

I like Passives, I just want a set of actives because I've never actually had a set before and the Fishman's seem to be awesome. I'm using a Joyo Mjolnir, I'm not really after a specific tone as this won't be in my main 6 string anyway. I think i'm going to to go with the Fishman's anyway. I can get a set of them for cheaper and they're kinda cool not being conventional coils/pickups and plus for the set I'm getting, the 2nd voicing on the neck is supposed to have a nice clean tone. I think in this set the neck is the Alnico Modern and the bridge is the Ceramic Modern. If I was putting them in an extended range guitar I would not even consider EMG's. I've heard many demo's where EMG's just sound bad and muddy and the bass strings completely drone out the other strings in extended range instrument. I'm not really a fan of EMG too much but the X series do seem to be better but for now i'm just going to try the Fishmans.


----------



## narad

You sound like a guy that spends too much time reading about what other people think about pickups vs. actually trying some out. You can absolutely get great tight sound with EMGs on ERGs. To your original post, no pickup is "better in a general sense." This is like pickups 101. Get out there and try some stuff.


----------



## GuitarBizarre

I'd also point out that absolutely nothing about actives necessarily has to be any different to passives. 

Active literally just means electronics that require external power, rather than passive which do what they do without an external power source.

Active pickups still are, at their heart, a passive pickup with electronics added. 

Usually that means that the passive pickup being used is very low output and the active electronics are there to boost it to a usable output level. The electronics do not need to change anything other than the volume level of the pickup. If they do, it's either intentional or those electronics were badly designed. 

Obviously there are more complex interactions at work, but there is no more an "Active sound" than there is a unicorn in my bedroom. Active electronics do not, inherently, do anything specific, other than require a 9v battery. 

I could design an active pickup that took an incredibly high output humbucker like the Slug, and use active electronics to reduce it's output dramatically. I could design electronics to keep the output of that circuitry low impedance like passives usually are. I could deliberately design the circuit to accentuate peaks in volume. It would be the polar opposite of the sound most people associate with active pickups.

But it would still be an active pickup.


----------



## Alex79

I don't buy into all those usual active/passive arguments. All I know is that I really dig my EMG60x/81X set in my ESP Eclipse. I like the 81x a lot more than the 81 even on 18V. It sounds a lot fresher and better to my ears, more up front in the mix.
The 60x is also good and a clear improvement over the usual EMG neck pickup sound, but IMO not as good as other (passive) neck pickups I've had.


----------



## djent000

GuitarBizarre said:


> Active pickups still are, at their heart, a passive pickup with electronics added.


True except I don't think that's the case with Fishman's seeing as though they aren't made like any other pickup. I've decided on the Fishman's anyway because they're slightly cheaper for me, more versatile, are praised by many, Heavy Devy uses Fishman's and simply for the fact that it's a completely new way of making pickups so it will be interesting to try.


----------



## GuitarBizarre

djent000 said:


> True except I don't think that's the case with Fishman's seeing as though they aren't made like any other pickup. I've decided on the Fishman's anyway because they're slightly cheaper for me, more versatile, are praised by many, Heavy Devy uses Fishman's and simply for the fact that it's a completely new way of making pickups so it will be interesting to try.



The only thing fishman are doing differently is that instead of winding thousands of turns of wire around a bobbin, they're using layers upon layers of PCB traces to achieve the same thing. It has a couple benefits in terms of what they're able to do after the fact, but they work, electrically, exactly the same way as a normal active pickup does.


----------



## frank falbo

Sort of. They don't work exactly the same way, because you can't (easily) wind a coil one layer at a time. So the distributed capacitance plummets, the inherent resonant peaks are up between 40-80kHZ. It's a lot of semantics but I wouldn't say they work electrically exactly the same. They don't react adversely to inductance shifts, they don't have the group delays of a wire-wound coil...Lots of differences. 

When people refer to the "active sound" negatively, there are a few things that come to mind. First, the original EMG preamp is clipping HARD. The Blackouts are louder, but also don't clip as hard. The EMG X is just 2 resistor swaps to lower the gain by 6dB, but the output impedance is lowered to 2k so it doesn't lose as many decibels when passing through 2 potentiometers. So it's like losing 6dB but gaining 2 or 3dB back before leaving the guitar. Anyway the point being...the hard clipping is the most identifiable negative characteristic of actives, especially with a clean sound. Fluence doesn't have that, the circuit has more than enough headroom. 

As for the typical active pickup having very weak coils and make up gain in the preamp, it's only half true really. The EMG 81/85 (and copycats) are all wound to about a PAF level with 42AWG. Not really weak per se. But another thing that contributes to the "active" sound and being less pleasant to listen to clean, is that they load the pickups a lot, to smash the resonant peak frequency down and flatten out the response. This puts a drag on the transients as well, and smears the frequency content more than leaving a coil wide open.


----------



## Spectivum

I also use actives for 6 string drop tuned to B. Used to have the 81 and bought the Modern Ceramic to try. While on their own they sound quite similar and the difference does not make or break a mix, the Fishman had better chord separation, overall cleaner, less boomy at chugs and has less shrillness in highs. At the end of the day it needs less massaging in mixing and sounds like a refined 81 with a lower peak freq. If you only play live and don't record these differences might not matter that much. cleans are still not that great.


----------



## oneblackened

frank falbo said:


> Sort of. They don't work exactly the same way, because you can't (easily) wind a coil one layer at a time. So the distributed capacitance plummets, the inherent resonant peaks are up between 40-80kHZ. It's a lot of semantics but I wouldn't say they work electrically exactly the same. They don't react adversely to inductance shifts, they don't have the group delays of a wire-wound coil...Lots of differences.
> 
> When people refer to the "active sound" negatively, there are a few things that come to mind. First, the original EMG preamp is clipping HARD. The Blackouts are louder, but also don't clip as hard. The EMG X is just 2 resistor swaps to lower the gain by 6dB, but the output impedance is lowered to 2k so it doesn't lose as many decibels when passing through 2 potentiometers. So it's like losing 6dB but gaining 2 or 3dB back before leaving the guitar. Anyway the point being...the hard clipping is the most identifiable negative characteristic of actives, especially with a clean sound.* Fluence doesn't have that, the circuit has more than enough headroom. *



Interesting fact about the fluences is that according to the spec sheet, they draw somewhere around 30 times as much current as an EMG does (2.5mA vs 80uA respectively) which explains the headroom.

I'm not an active guy and I like the Fluences a lot. Very clear, very tight. Stupid versatile too since they have 2 voicings per pickup that are pretty different in reaction and EQ.


----------



## GuitarBizarre

frank falbo said:


> Sort of. They don't work exactly the same way, because you can't (easily) wind a coil one layer at a time. So the distributed capacitance plummets, the inherent resonant peaks are up between 40-80kHZ. It's a lot of semantics but I wouldn't say they work electrically exactly the same. They don't react adversely to inductance shifts, they don't have the group delays of a wire-wound coil...Lots of differences.
> 
> When people refer to the "active sound" negatively, there are a few things that come to mind. First, the original EMG preamp is clipping HARD. The Blackouts are louder, but also don't clip as hard. The EMG X is just 2 resistor swaps to lower the gain by 6dB, but the output impedance is lowered to 2k so it doesn't lose as many decibels when passing through 2 potentiometers. So it's like losing 6dB but gaining 2 or 3dB back before leaving the guitar. Anyway the point being...the hard clipping is the most identifiable negative characteristic of actives, especially with a clean sound. Fluence doesn't have that, the circuit has more than enough headroom.
> 
> As for the typical active pickup having very weak coils and make up gain in the preamp, it's only half true really. The EMG 81/85 (and copycats) are all wound to about a PAF level with 42AWG. Not really weak per se. But another thing that contributes to the "active" sound and being less pleasant to listen to clean, is that they load the pickups a lot, to smash the resonant peak frequency down and flatten out the response. This puts a drag on the transients as well, and smears the frequency content more than leaving a coil wide open.



Didn't know that last bit. Still though, very much a case of low output compared to something like a Duncan Distortion or JB, and then being "Improved" after the fact electronically - They're using the fact they can get away with less turns of wire, and therefore less high frequency being lost to capacitance. Then they're making up for the lost output to get the best of both worlds.

And yeah, the fact they're able to achieve such repeatable coil construction allows stuff like you described to happen, but ultimately, still copper coils, magnets and vibrating ferrous material. It's not like they're fundamentally different to a coil. Just a very overengineered and highly manufactured one, which is the polar opposite of stuff like scatterwinding that people bang on about as the savior of all things pickup.


----------



## jrui

fishman sounds rounder than 81 , more natural feel , and it has less output than 81 ,
81x sounds rounder also , and less output , so it has more dynamics than 81 , 

general sense which is better, of course fishman , but it doesnt make much sense.

take a look at the JH het set , it has more output than original 81, but it has some mid which 81 doesnt , and it has clearer and tighter low end , and over all more organic feel, so far this is my favourite active pus and my main weapon.

57 is also a good choise , don't miss it.


----------

