# So...how exactly do Periphery get such good tones?



## Insomnia (Mar 27, 2016)

Hey everyone,

Like most people on here, I am a huge fan of Periphery. About four months ago, I was blessed with an Axe FX XL+ and it has just blown me away. However, I have to ask: how does Misha make such incredible patches?

Even on P2, songs like Scarlet and Luck as a Constant had insane clarity for such a high gain tone. I assumed they just had insane mastering and mixing, but after watching the Juggernaut studio update, I know that the patches themselves are insanely good.

I've downloaded the FW18 patches that Misha very kindly put up not too long ago, but they just don't quite cut it. I've tried it with a friend's Regius 7 which has Juggs in, and it still didn't sound as clear as the tones I'm hearing on all their material.

I don't expect the guys in Periphery to ever release their studio patches, it'd be like a magician giving away his secrets, but it just kinda annoys me that I know I could create the tones they have, I have almost exactly the same gear, but I still can't get anywhere near where I want to be.

Do any Axe FX guys have tips? Does Bulb himself have any tips of creating patches?


Thanks,

Insomnia


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## Emperor Guillotine (Mar 27, 2016)

Post-processing, post-processing, post-processing.

Kind of helps that two guys in the band are producers and one of the two is also a very highly reputed audio engineer.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Mar 27, 2016)

nollynollynollynollynolly

Seriously. Nolls is an alien. The guy can mix on a potato and it'd still sound great.
Same for Taylor Larson, who did the processing on PII, I believe.

As for you specifically, the AxeFX still isn't the only piece of the puzzle. Have you ever seen the Periphery pedalboards? Then there's whatever monitors that are being used, guitar and pickups like you touched on, plus the hands. The tone is alllllll in the hands.

Check out Ola Englund's channel, if memory serves he's got a couple videos up with those tiny little 8" bedroom practice combo amps, the Fender Mustang, the Line 6 Spider, and he makes them sound huge.


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## Lorcan Ward (Mar 27, 2016)

They are most likely using a very hi-end interface before the Axe-Fx which makes a huge difference and I think they also had a custom impulse made which is one of the biggest parts of your signal chain.


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## straightshreddd (Mar 27, 2016)

Good ear and good gear.


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## marcwormjim (Mar 27, 2016)

Insomnia said:


> So...how exactly do Periphery get such good tones?



Your mileage may vary.


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## Masoo2 (Mar 27, 2016)

I'd say just knowledge.

They have been pursuing that tone for years, so they have probably developed a vast wealth of knowledge on how to get great tones.

You have to remember that Misha and Nolly are engineers too, that plays a big part


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## Emperor Guillotine (Mar 27, 2016)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> nollynollynollynollynolly


TRUE. I really want to know about how/where he learned all that he knows.



Ordacleaphobia said:


> As for you specifically, the AxeFX still isn't the only piece of the puzzle. Have you ever seen the Periphery pedalboards? Then there's whatever monitors that are being used, guitar and pickups like you touched on, plus the hands. The tone is alllllll in the hands.


All those pedals, man. I know that they used actual amps on P-II judging by studio footage, but if they are saving time and money by doing it all at Misha's place for this next album, then yeah, you have to take all this other gear into consideration. Also, if they found a way to get rid of latency issues, they could have a bit of processing already on the guitar channels and be monitoring that processed signal while playing as opposed to monitoring what is directly going into the DAW. 

Monitors are Event Opal monitors. The guitars and pickups they change so much, but you can easily tell which are Misha's Jackson models, which are Mark's PRS models, etc.



Lorcan Ward said:


> They are most likely using a very hi-end interface before the Axe-Fx which makes a huge difference and I think they also had a custom impulse made which is one of the biggest parts of your signal chain.


It's either a Liquid Saffire 56 or a Saffire Pro 40. Can't recall at the moment.



straightshreddd said:


> Good ear and good gear.


Needs to be our motto for living. Let's make shirts.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Mar 28, 2016)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Needs to be our motto for living. Let's make shirts.



Someone make a group buy thread right now.
Slap the SSO logo on there we're in business


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## Aymara (Mar 28, 2016)

As others have mentioned already there are many pieces needed to comlete this puzzle 

One of this puzzle pieces is EQ fine tuning, which is nicely explained in this video:


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## Petar Bogdanov (Mar 28, 2016)

Try a compressor in front of your dirty sound. It clamps down on your open notes and chords, which increases clarity while staying nice and meaty on the palm mutes. That's how you get that metallic low-gain sound with a high-gain feel.


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## A-Branger (Mar 28, 2016)

in top of everything already mentioned, also remember that what you are hearing is the guitar sound on a band/mix environment. This sound is going to be slight different from what you would hear of the guitar by itself.

Most of the time when someone is trying to recreate the guitar sound from certain album/artist, there is one element they always miss, the bass! (the instrument not the EQ). The bass adds so much to the guitar sound, a key element that majority of the people dont think about it.

Also remember they have 3 guitar players in the band, so most of the time two guitars are playing the same riffs. This change a lot of the sound of what you think its just one guitar.

If you have ever heard an A/B comparison of a song vs just the guitar track of that song by itself you would see what Im talking about


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## Emperor Guillotine (Mar 28, 2016)

A-Branger said:


> in top of everything already mentioned, also remember that what you are hearing is the guitar sound on a band/mix environment. This sound is going to be slight different from what you would hear of the guitar by itself.


Yes. You lose 90% of your guitar tone once it is put in a full mix. This makes a huge difference in sound. 

Right now, the two patches that I use while recording rhythm guitars (one tone panned to one side, and a different tone panned to the other side) sound terrible by themselves. But together, they interlock perfectly and create a BIG, heavy tone.



A-Branger said:


> Also remember they have 3 guitar players in the band, so most of the time two guitars are playing the same riffs. This change a lot of the sound of what you think its just one guitar.


Periphery either dual-track or quad-track their rhythm guitars just like every other band. It's not like they are recording three rhythm guitars playing the same thing (panned left, right, and center - or dual-tracking three guitars for a total of six channels) or recording three rhythm guitars playing three completely different things for layering. If you watch them live, it helps explain it better. Typically they're songs are divided up into two guitars playing the rhythm, and then the third guitar is either playing a lead under/over the rhythm or a clean part under/over the rhythm. They play with the arrangement, and it just adds to the "full" sound live.


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## jerm (Mar 28, 2016)

On PII, they recorded 3 guitar tracks, one panned L, one R and another one in the center pitch shifted 1 octave down (mixed in)


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## crg123 (Mar 28, 2016)

jerm said:


> On PII, they recorded 3 guitar tracks, one panned L, one R and another one in the center pitch shifted 1 octave down (mixed in)



That is interesting. Where did you find that out?


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## wakjob (Mar 28, 2016)

Petar Bogdanov said:


> Try a compressor in front of your dirty sound. It clamps down on your open notes and chords, which increases clarity while staying nice and meaty on the palm mutes. That's how you get that metallic low-gain sound with a high-gain feel.



Bingo.

A decent compressor with an Attack and/or Blend control is key to getting that feel of liquid high gain without actually using all that much preamp saturation.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Mar 28, 2016)

jerm said:


> On PII, they recorded 3 guitar tracks, one panned L, one R and another one in the center pitch shifted 1 octave down (mixed in)


What?... I've never heard of that before. I guess that is to add some depth and fill in between the guitars and bass a bit? (Could add some life to the bass depending on what you mean by "mixed in".)


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## Aymara (Mar 28, 2016)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> What?... I've never heard of that before.



Bulb has a video on Youtube, where he gives some home recording tips for guitars, and guess what? There he used a similar technique  ... except this pitch shifting a full octave as far as I remember.


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## jerm (Mar 29, 2016)

From the CreativeLive session with Nolly he mentions the center pitched shift method.


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## isispelican (Mar 29, 2016)

It's not about post processing and mixing tricks, it's about a great sounding source tone and SOLID performances.


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## AndruwX (Mar 31, 2016)

Lorcan Ward said:


> They are most likely using a very hi-end interface before the Axe-Fx which makes a huge difference



Wait, hold on, don't you mean AFTER?
Guitar > AXE> Liquid Sapphire > DAW?


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## kootenay (Mar 31, 2016)

wakjob said:


> Bingo.
> 
> A decent compressor with an Attack and/or Blend control is key to getting that feel of liquid high gain without actually using all that much preamp saturation.



Can you recommend such a compressor?


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## JustMac (Mar 31, 2016)

A-Branger said:


> Also remember they have 3 guitar players in the band, so most of the time two guitars are playing the same riffs.



The variations on the Luck as a Constant riff are really clever, wish they did more weird stuff like that!


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## wakjob (Mar 31, 2016)

kootenay said:


> Can you recommend such a compressor?



Total rabbit hole! 

The lower priced ones might "hiss" and/or "hum".
And the higher priced ones, well, high priced.

I did well enough with the MXR Super Comp.

I'd like to try the Wampler EGO compressor pedal. That's the one.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Mar 31, 2016)

kootenay said:


> Can you recommend such a compressor?


Whatever is closest to the compressor emulations available on the Axe-Fx since that is what Periphery uses.

You looking for a pedal unit for compression on the guitar before it hits the amp, or for a rackmount unit for processing after it hits the amp in the signal chain?

For pedals, look at the EHX Black Finger (I use this in my bass signal chain) or Earthquaker Devices The Warden. Both are optical compressors that are powerful for pedals yet super simple to use/adjust when it comes to tone shaping. The Walrus Audio Deep Six is a highly praised compressor as well, and I think it is awesome that the Walrus Audio team created it with the performance of the UA 1176 in mind. (All of my fellow studio engineer guys know that comp well. Haha.) But I don't think (personally) that the Deep Six has anything on the previous two that I mentioned. And then, of course, wakjob mentioned the EGO compressor pedal by Wampler as well.


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## noUser01 (Mar 31, 2016)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Post-processing, post-processing, post-processing.
> 
> Kind of helps that two guys in the band are producers and one of the two is also a very highly reputed audio engineer.



Post processing is not what gets them those tones, that's just not true.

They are guys who really know their stuff. It's not like they just stack 40 plugins on their guitar tones with 4 parallel chains to get their album tones. They have tons of knowledge and experience with recording, dialling in guitar tones, playing live, working with the AxeFX... they are knowledgeable guys with lots of experience and great ears. Combine that with the power of the AxeFX and you've got a recipe for success. Like you said, it's the knowledge and skills of the members, not their post processing. That just makes it sound like no one else can get those sounds without their whole studio setup on top of everything else.

It's simple. They know their stuff, and they have very capable gear.


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## Aymara (Apr 1, 2016)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> You looking for a pedal unit for compression on the guitar before it hits the amp, or for a rackmount unit for processing after it hits the amp in the signal chain?



The first question should be: Do you need a compressor for recording only or on stage too? I guess in most cases the answer would be "recording only".

And that's why I would start with a software compressor, that I can place in front of an amp sim, which usually isn't needed with active pickups or at the end of the tone chain, which is usually done in recording scenarios, right?



ConnorGilks said:


> They have tons of knowledge and experience with recording, ...



... which Bulb nicely shows in his Youtube tutorials.



> Like you said, it's the knowledge and skills of the members, not their post processing.



In my opinion it's both combined with high end equipment, incl. high end guitars!


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## noUser01 (Apr 2, 2016)

Aymara said:


> ... which Bulb nicely shows in his Youtube tutorials.



If only it were as simple as watching his videos to get his skills! 



> In my opinion it's both combined with high end equipment, incl. high end guitars!



Like I said, it's their experience (skills, a good ear, etc.) combined with their gear (high quality sound, lots of flexibility).

As a side note, they don't use compressors live any more very much for their guitar tones (can't speak to how much they compress or limit their guitars in the studio, if any). At least not as much as they used to, which we can infer from his comments at 7:15 in this video:


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## Aymara (Apr 2, 2016)

ConnorGilks said:


> If only it were as simple as watching his videos to get his skills!



Haha ... but it's a good start for recording beginners.



> ... they don't use compressors live any more very much for their guitar tones (can't speak to how much they compress or limit their guitars in the studio, if any).



They will for sure use compressors in the studio, but as it seems only at the end of the tone chain to get more room for bass and drums.


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## noUser01 (Apr 2, 2016)

Aymara said:


> Haha ... but it's a good start for recording beginners.



For sure, but information for beginners won't make them experts or get them those tones. They will however, start them off on the right foot.



> They will for sure use compressors in the studio, but as it seems only at the end of the tone chain to get more room for bass and drums.



Tough to say for sure. I would assume that they do, but at the same time many people don't compress distorted guitars at all. I would lean towards them using a bit of compression on the distorted tones in the studio though, if I had to guess.


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## Alex Kenivel (Apr 2, 2016)

I bet Misha is having a blast reading this thread..


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## Aymara (Apr 3, 2016)

ConnorGilks said:


> but at the same time many people don't compress distorted guitars at all.



And I bet nearly all of them use active pickups, that already have a pretty compressed tone.



> I would lean towards them using a bit of compression on the distorted tones in the studio though, if I had to guess.



That's very likely, because they use passive pickups.


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## Insomnia (Apr 3, 2016)

Alex Kenivel said:


> I bet Misha is having a blast reading this thread..



I feel like he reads this as he plays one of his Juggernauts through the Axe FX, laughing menacingly


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## noUser01 (Apr 3, 2016)

Aymara said:


> And I bet nearly all of them use active pickups, that already have a pretty compressed tone.
> 
> That's very likely, because they use passive pickups.



It's not about the pickups, it's just about the fact that distorted guitars are already compressed to being with. Many people with passive pickups do not use compression in post. Sometimes it calls for it, sometimes it doesn't.


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## redstone (Apr 3, 2016)

Insomnia said:


> how exactly do Periphery get such good tones?



They work their asses off.


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## CaptainD00M (Apr 3, 2016)

ConnorGilks said:


> It's simple. They know their stuff, *and they have very capable gear.*



Without getting into a discussion about weather its bad or worse, Periphery couldn't sound like they do without the rather significant amount of gear (be it in one metal box on in several metal boxes) they use. I know its pretty much a given but to use an example here is Rob Chapman who while not a Djent guy is a perfectly capable guitarist playing the Icarus Lives riff as guitar into amp:



So yes it is technical know how, but its also a lot of processing at some point be it between guitar and amp/in parallel or as some people suggest in post production (I'm not touching that one).

3 noise gates + an EQ is processing people, just as a TS9 into the front of a 6505 is also processing just significantly less than what the periphery guys do with their AxeFX. YMMV depending on what you think is better  

So my only contribution to this discussion _is_ that there is processing, I leave it to you where you place it


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## Aymara (Apr 3, 2016)

CaptainD00M said:


> So my only contribution to this discussion _is_ that there is processing, ...



I would prefer the term "tone chain" ... let me explain why ... Geordie Walker of Killing Joke is a good example for this explanation. He uses a 50ies Gibson hollowbody, D Standard tuning, some vintage effects as far as I know and a Burmann amp ... not to forget his playing style. Long story short ... every Killing Joke fan will at once say: "Aah, that's the sound of Geordie", when they hear him play. So now just alter one component in his tone chain, be it a different guitar, other effects or another amp and his unique tone is lost.

With Periphery it's similar, besides playing style, they have their preferred guitars, tunings, strings and the Axe FX and not to forget their amps and cabs.

This all is part of their _tone chain_, of which "processing" is only part of the whole puzzle.


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## noUser01 (Apr 3, 2016)

CaptainD00M said:


> So yes it is technical know how, but its also a lot of processing at some point be it between guitar and amp/in parallel or as some people suggest in post production (I'm not touching that one).
> 
> 3 noise gates + an EQ is processing people, just as a TS9 into the front of a 6505 is also processing just significantly less than what the periphery guys do with their AxeFX. YMMV depending on what you think is better
> 
> So my only contribution to this discussion _is_ that there is processing, I leave it to you where you place it



But 3 noise gates and EQ is NOT POST-processing. That's the difference here. Processing in a digital guitar processor is not the same as post-processing (running through outboard studio gear or plugins in post). I'm trying to clarify that they don't get their tones because of POST-processing, like someone suggested previously.

On that note, separating "technical know-how" and "processing" as two separate things isn't quite accurate. They go hand in hand. The processing means nothing without the knowledge to use it well, and that's what they have.


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## CaptainD00M (Apr 3, 2016)

ConnorGilks said:


> But 3 noise gates and EQ is NOT POST-processing.



Yup I know, which is why I'm not arguing that it is. I'm simply trying to point out that anything between your guitar and the amp is some form of processing.



> process1
> &#712;pr&#601;&#650;s&#603;s/
> verb
> gerund or present participle: processing
> perform a series of mechanical or chemical operations on (something) in order to change or preserve it.



Peripherys sound relies on a lot of effects and is therefore processed. My guitar goes through an SD-1 before it hits my amp, its processed.

Call it a 'tone chain' or whatever you want but effects are a huge part of their sound so their guitar signal is processed in some way. Therefore there is processing. I didn't say where it was and if it was good or bad, thats up to you.

I am sorry Connor if I muddied the waters on your point. I was just simply trying to point out that effects are a big part of their sound.

Aymara I really don't see how your preferred term is any clearer.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Apr 3, 2016)

ConnorGilks said:


> But 3 noise gates and EQ is NOT POST-processing. That's the difference here. Processing in a digital guitar processor is not the same as post-processing (running through outboard studio gear or plugins in post). I'm trying to clarify that they don't get their tones because of POST-processing, like someone suggested previously.


Yes, there is post-processing. All of that signal is not 100% from the Axe-Fx. They do use elaborate signal chains in their Axe patches; however, everything is not 100% done within the Axe or consolidated within the Axe. Mixing like that isn't practical, and shaping in post-processing is easier thanks to some of the plugins out there. There is post-processing during the mixing stage of the song/album.


Misha is going to know that we got it explained but then come in here like...


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## MrPepperoniNipples (Apr 3, 2016)

They are tight players. They are solid af rhythm players.

Everyone answers the tone question with "they have this string gauge, these pickups in this wood, they use this axe fx patch, these picks, the quantize this and post-process this," ignoring the big fundamental thing that comes before anything else: your playing.

You could match their set up exactly and still sound 1/4th as massive as they do because your takes aren't as tight as theirs. If you want a good tone, you need to practice, be on point rhythmically, be clean, and be precise.

I don't even like Periphery to be honest, but those guys work hard to perfect their craft. They're guitar players as well as producers.
Of course, there is a lot of other things that go into it, how they dial in their patches or how they mic their amps or how they mix the bass or what have you, but for you at home, if you want to sound great like Periphery does, you need to make sure that your playing is tight, before anything else.


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## Aymara (Apr 3, 2016)

CaptainD00M said:


> Aymara I really don't see how your preferred term is any clearer.



Processing in any form is only a small part of the complete tone chain, that's why I prefer the tone chain perspective. Understandable?

The tone chain is the compete puzzle, guitars, strings, tuning, effects, amp, cab and for sure also the playing style.


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## noUser01 (Apr 3, 2016)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Yes, there is post-processing. All of that signal is not 100% from the Axe-Fx. They do use elaborate signal chains in their Axe patches; however, everything is not 100% done within the Axe or consolidated within the Axe. Mixing like that isn't practical, and shaping in post-processing is easier thanks to some of the plugins out there. There is post-processing during the mixing stage of the song/album.



You're completely missing my point. 

Of course they use post processing in the studio. Is that how they get such amazing tones? NO. That's why their live sound is still so fantastic, because the post processing IS NOT NECESSARY to get their tones. The post-processing is just going to be a bit of EQ and maybe some compression. The vast majority of their tone comes from everything BEFORE the post-processing. Their playing, their gear, their patches, etc.

"Get it right at the source" is the first rule of recording, and there's no way around it. 

No one is arguing there isn't post-processing on their recorded tones. The argument is that the post-processing is not the KEY to their tones.


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## jerm (Apr 3, 2016)

If I remember correctly this is absolutely no limiting/compression on their high gain tones, from watching Nolly's Studio pass with Creativelive.


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## noUser01 (Apr 3, 2016)

jerm said:


> If I remember correctly this is absolutely no limiting/compression on their high gain tones, from watching Nolly's Studio pass with Creativelive.



There you go.


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## Petar Bogdanov (Apr 4, 2016)

jerm said:


> If I remember correctly this is absolutely no limiting/compression on their high gain tones, from watching Nolly's Studio pass with Creativelive.



They used to use chains of gates and compressors on P1. Not much info about P2. Juggs is supposedly compressor-free.


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## jerm (Apr 4, 2016)

^There's probably more info about P2 than any other album if you watch the Studio Pass.

Nolly goes through a mix completely. I've been meaning to buy it; Nolly has some awesome tips that I've been applying to my mixes


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## Alex Kenivel (Apr 6, 2016)

This is getting ridiculous.  I'll ask Siri....

Q: How exactly do Periphery get such good tones.

A: Very carefully.


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## toiletstand (Apr 6, 2016)

https://soundcloud.com/iambulb/blackmachine-b6-test

misha was getting these sounds with a POD. all the high end gear is really nice and can make your life a little easier. but its always worth it to see what you can achieve with your own skills and what you already have.


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## Aymara (Apr 7, 2016)

toiletstand said:


> but its always worth it to see what you can achieve with your own skills and what you already have.



It depends on WHAT you have. You don't need high end gear, yes, but you need at least a decent guitar, right?


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## toiletstand (Apr 7, 2016)

true! define decent though. like, high end? middle tier? a well setup beater? its different for everyone


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## Aymara (Apr 8, 2016)

toiletstand said:


> its different for everyone



Yes, we could open a new thread about what "decent gear" would be to be able to record a song and it would very likely fill a few pages.

How about the term of "mid priced with decent quality" then? This is also not clearly defined, but maybe less speculative?


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## Andromalia (Apr 8, 2016)

> Of course they use post processing in the studio. Is that how they get such amazing tones? NO. That's why their live sound is still so fantastic, because the post processing IS NOT NECESSARY to get their tones. The post-processing is just going to be a bit of EQ and maybe some compression. The vast majority of their tone comes from everything BEFORE the post-processing. Their playing, their gear, their patches, etc.



I've seen them live on the Devin Townsend tour and they just sounded like guys with guitars. Nothing to really write home about. I'll admit to not being a djent fan to begin with, though, and the Bulb & co presets for the axe FX have always been horrible to my ears after trying them with a dozen guitars.


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## noUser01 (Apr 8, 2016)

Andromalia said:


> I've seen them live on the Devin Townsend tour and they just sounded like guys with guitars. Nothing to really write home about. I'll admit to not being a djent fan to begin with, though, and the Bulb & co presets for the axe FX have always been horrible to my ears after trying them with a dozen guitars.



Trying presets that someone else has made is almost always disappointing. Personally, when I saw them, it sounded incredible.


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## Aymara (Apr 9, 2016)

ConnorGilks said:


> Trying presets that someone else has made is almost always disappointing.



I think this is normal and happens with your own presets too, when you change guitars. At least this is my experience with BIAS FX, which I use.

A preset usually sounds best with the guitar it was made with and needs adjustments, when you change to a guitar with a different character ... an experience being the same with real amps.


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## noUser01 (Apr 9, 2016)

Aymara said:


> I think this is normal and happens with your own presets too, when you change guitars. At least this is my experience with BIAS FX, which I use.
> 
> A preset usually sounds best with the guitar it was made with and needs adjustments, when you change to a guitar with a different character ... an experience being the same with real amps.



Yup, very true. Even my RG2228 and RGD2127Z, with the same pickups, same strings, same woods, same construction, they sound pretty different when plugged into the same patch.


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## Aymara (Apr 9, 2016)

ConnorGilks said:


> with the same pickups, same strings, same woods, same construction, ...



... I wouldn't have expected a huge difference in tone ... interesting.


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## Andromalia (Apr 9, 2016)

Axefx seems to be very sensitive to guitar changes, I do indeed have per-guitar patches, luckily when scenes were implemented it made it way easier to have everything in a single patch. 
I can confirm that I have multiple mahogany+EMG81 guitars (ESP, Jackson) and they sound different enough that the same patch for both isn't cutting it.


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## noUser01 (Apr 9, 2016)

Aymara said:


> ... I wouldn't have expected a huge difference in tone ... interesting.



Not huge, but notable.


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