# Black machine imitation? do or dont



## krillicafoe (Apr 3, 2009)

seeing as how most people here love and admire these wonderfully crafted guitars, do you think it would be smart to have another luthier build a somewhat similair guitar? i mean i love dougs work, absolutly amazing, but the prices for americans is completly out of my range and probably will be for another 5 years. seriously. 3-4 grand. i dont have that much. but using another luthier w/o the year and a half wait time would be nice. just wanted some input. i also dont want to feel like i am cheating doug on his own creation. if i was to do it, i would go for different options from his guitar. it would be similair to the b7 because that ebony top with the complementing headstock and fretboard is just pure win in my eyes. i wouldnt do a chambered as it probably wouldnt sound as good as dougs at all. but i know some people are really going to get pissed and im sorry if i offend you, but i want one of these w/o the price tag. i just cant afford it. i have goten some quotes alredy and have the money to drop. lets just say i would pay a lot less but at the same time i know its not dougs work so it wont play the same or sound the same and i am ok with that. so just wanted some input from my fellow musicians. thanks in advance people.

so do or dont . lets hear it


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## sakeido (Apr 3, 2009)

Go for it. Blackmachines rule but the name has a retarded amount of hype surrounding it. Shamray can build you one no problem, and they have some of the best customer service I've ever dealt with - they are AWESOME, the polar opposite of Doug - and their prices are reasonable and the wait times a lot shorter than the competition.


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## krillicafoe (Apr 3, 2009)

yea. i am looking to help out a friend. he has been building for years now. hes been around wood since he started talking. long family history of woodworking so he knows how to build just about anything. hes built guitars for about 15 years now and is just getting his business up and running. he has done plenty of 7's and just recently got majorly into 8s so i figure why not. help out a friend and his work is super nice. i just want to know if it is the right thing to do


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## badger71 (Apr 3, 2009)

You can have a luthier build you whatever you want....any style, body shape, headstock design, etc....Some of the best Les Pauls and Strats *haven't* been built by Gibson or Fender. However, selling it as his own design is an altogether different animal.....even if he doesn't have an international trademark/patent, it would still be in poor taste.


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## st2012 (Apr 3, 2009)

Yeah, as long as he doesn't pull an Ed Roman and try to tell the interwebz that he designed the guitar then I don't see a problem. It sounds like a good idea to me, save some time and money.


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## darren (Apr 3, 2009)

I think when a small builder like blackmachine is doing something new and interesting, taking his design ideas to another builder and having them knock it off "on the cheap" is unethical.

If i were a builder, i would flat-out refuse to build anything that wasn't of my own design.

As a designer, i'd be really pissed if somebody started ripping off my work.

If you want a blackmachine, save up for the real thing and support a luthier who's doing some beautiful and original work.

Otherwise, work with your friend to design something new and original that you (or he) can call your own.

Don't steal other people's work.


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## loktide (Apr 3, 2009)

i agree with darren. i would at least use a different headstock since that's the main blackmachine trademark. tonewise, having a different luthier build you a similar rg-shaped guitar probably won't turn out the same as a blackmachine. 

also, since you're in the US, why not get a sherman? can't go wrong with that


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## Kazrog (Apr 3, 2009)

Interesting topic. For me, the issue with Blackmachine is that it's incredibly difficult to contact Doug to even order one now, and that there is a waiting list of near infinite length it seems. I am willing to wait a long time AND pay the high price tag, since you only have to pay half up front, it's not a big deal to spend that money since it will take a long time to get the guitar - it's almost like paying off a credit card in that sense.

If anyone ever sold their used Blackmachine b7 (not likely) then I would be very tempted to pick it up. I just hope that Doug figures out how to expand his operation *just enough* to keep up with demand and customer service better, because I don't think anyone can build guitars like Blackmachine. Take ethics totally out of the equation for a minute - I simply don't think anyone else knows *how* to do what he does.


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## Daemoniac (Apr 3, 2009)

darren said:


> I think when a small builder like blackmachine is doing something new and interesting, taking his design ideas to another builder and having them knock it off "on the cheap" is unethical.
> 
> If i were a builder, i would flat-out refuse to build anything that wasn't of my own design.
> 
> ...



This. Its one thing to take all the favorite parts of your favorite guitars, and put your own spin on them, but to just simply have another builder make you a straight up copy? Nope.


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## ShadyDavey (Apr 3, 2009)

Imitation might be the most sincere form of flattery but its also guarnateed to bring any hard-working luthier or designer out in a raging fury. Don't get me wrong - Blackmachine's are flooping gorgeous and I'd do anything to get my paws on one but I _wouldn't _get another builder to copy the design.

If I were another builder, I'd refuse to copy the design even if it lost me work simply because its just not on as far as I'm concerned.


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## thedonutman (Apr 3, 2009)

I think it's perfectly acceptable to build a thin guitar an ebony top. But you shouldn't copy one 100&#37;. Most guitar designs are based off something else these days, Doug's body shapes are obviously influenced by Ibanez/Jacksons which were in turn influenced by the original strat designs.


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## hairychris (Apr 3, 2009)

OP, you can try to implement some of the techniques that Doug uses in his builds but:

1) Do not copy the headstock
2) Modify the body shape

These are trademark issues.

The ethical issues... well, there's a fine line between building a guitar like another, and blatant plagarism.

However, if you want a luthier to have a go at building a thin profile guitar out of similar materials then give it a go. It may work, it may not. I will hazard a guess that it will be a different beast altogether as it's the minor details that make Doug's guitars work like they do. He also uses the best materials that he can source from around the world, and he really knows his woods and how they interact with each other.



Kazrog said:


> Interesting topic. For me, the issue with Blackmachine is that it's incredibly difficult to contact Doug to even order one now, and that there is a waiting list of near infinite length it seems. I am willing to wait a long time AND pay the high price tag, since you only have to pay half up front, it's not a big deal to spend that money since it will take a long time to get the guitar - it's almost like paying off a credit card in that sense.
> 
> If anyone ever sold their used Blackmachine b7 (not likely) then I would be very tempted to pick it up. I just hope that Doug figures out how to expand his operation *just enough* to keep up with demand and customer service better, because I don't think anyone can build guitars like Blackmachine. Take ethics totally out of the equation for a minute - I simply don't think anyone else knows *how* to do what he does.



Here's the rub. As I've said before the 'customer service' aspect of guitar building is the one that Doug's least happy with. You meet the guy and you can shoot breeze for hours, but when it comes to building and dealing with customers... well he isn't going to let anything out of his door until he's happy with it. He's also a technophobe, to a certain degree, so e-mails aren't always the best way of communicating!

As for expanding, er, that probably is never going to happen. His margins aren't great (high material costs, time costs), and he'd never employ anyone else to work on his customs anyway. The B6s were an experiment that may or may not make a return. To get around the problems he's had with timing over the past couple of years he's accepting fewer orders - 6 this year, about double that next year. That's about it.

FWIW there's one guitar outstanding from his backlog - my epically non-standard B7 that I ordered in Feb 2007! He'll complete this after the Frankfurt music fair, and to be fair I did tell him to complete it 'whenever' so a wait was expected. The limited slots for this year should be completed on time, barring accidents or issues with suppliers.

I'm trying to be relatively neutral here. I know that sakeido had problems, but I've also known Doug since before Blackmachine was a commercial operation and can vouch the passion that he puts into building his 'children'.

The whole hype thing confuses me. If you've played his guitars you're either into them or you aren't. I can't say whether my B2 is any better or worse then any other luthier's work, but it's a thoroughly individual instrument built to a particular aesthetic. My B7 will be the same. The fact that it works for me (and Nolly, Bulb, and a few others here) doesn't mean that it will for you...


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## Emperoff (Apr 3, 2009)

Demoniac said:


> This. Its one thing to take all the favorite parts of your favorite guitars, and put your own spin on them, but to just simply have another builder make you a straight up copy? Nope.



You'd be surprised about how much copies of Hetfield's Ken Lawrence explorer I've seen


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## Autofate (Apr 3, 2009)

I dont get why everyone says Doug is hard to deal with, get a hold of, whatever. Earlier this year we worked on pricing a guitar and he was quick with responses and an overall nice dude.


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## MF_Kitten (Apr 3, 2009)

i think it would be a nasty thing to do, seeing as he's a small builder himself. if you want something that's inspired by something doug made, then sure. if it ends up looking like a blackmachine, however, then that's a no-no. if you're going to have a custom made, just do the right thing and either provide a luthier with an explanation as to what you want from a guitar, or design the whole thing yourself, from the bottom up. i did the latter, but i took inspiration from a gazillion different brands, builders, and designs.


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## Wi77iam (Apr 3, 2009)

+1 to darren's post
If your going to get a luthier build you a guitar, might as well go the whole 9 yards and make it custom for YOU. you could probably base your guitar on the Blackmachine, but don't just copy it.


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## Scar Symmetry (Apr 3, 2009)

darren said:


> I think when a small builder like blackmachine is doing something new and interesting, taking his design ideas to another builder and having them knock it off "on the cheap" is unethical.
> 
> If i were a builder, i would flat-out refuse to build anything that wasn't of my own design.
> 
> ...



+1

I know you think you might be helping out a friend, but really in doing so you'd be stiffing a fine guitar maker.

at the end of the day, if you WANT a Blackmachine, BUY a Blackmachine, even if it takes you forever to save up. the other guitarist in my band wanted an ESP SV so he saved up a year and a half to buy it.

nothing substitutes the real thing, it's pricey for a reason


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## Justin Bailey (Apr 3, 2009)

Darren is completely right, but at the end of the day it's your call, if you want a Blackmachine copy, than get a Blackmachine copy.

But what I would do is take the things I like about Blackmachine's and add all the things I like about other guitars. I did this with the current guitar I'm designing, it basically started life as a blackmachine variant, sans headstock, but it's evolved into a completely different guitar, and it's a lot more rewarding than out right copying someone's design.


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## Scar Symmetry (Apr 3, 2009)

Justin Bailey said:


> if you want a Blackmachine copy, than get a Blackmachine copy.



no, don't.

it's immoral.


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## HamBungler (Apr 3, 2009)

If you're doing a Blackmachine style guitar, I say try and do something different with it, like do a BM-style V or something like that that Doug wouldn't usually do, and perhaps work with the headstock design a bit. I honestly see nothing super wrong with doing a similar instrument, as BM are usually strat shapes and the whole design aspect is mostly with the woods and how they're used, and that is certainly hard to replicate without going for the real thing.


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## Mattmc74 (Apr 3, 2009)

darren said:


> I think when a small builder like blackmachine is doing something new and interesting, taking his design ideas to another builder and having them knock it off "on the cheap" is unethical.
> 
> If i were a builder, i would flat-out refuse to build anything that wasn't of my own design.
> 
> ...




 Well said Darren


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## Ze Kink (Apr 3, 2009)

A Blackmachine influenced custom? Go ahead.

A Blackmachine copy? Why'd you do that? It's probably only going to look like one, but be very different otherwise, as it's not built by the same person.

So if you want someone to build you a bolt-on superstrat with an oil finished thin body and BKP's, go ahead and get one. If you want a Blackmachine minus the price tag and built by someone else... It's just not gonna be the same thing. It's like, two painters can use the same stuff to paint a painting from the same thing, but it's not going to be similar still, as they're done by different artists.

If you want a Blackmachine, just save up for one, it's the only way you're going to get one.


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## hairychris (Apr 3, 2009)

william93 said:


> +1 to darren's post
> If your going to get a luthier build you a guitar, might as well go the whole 9 yards and make it custom for YOU. you could probably base your guitar on the Blackmachine, but don't just copy it.



+1, this is what I was getting at but badly.

Darren's post is absolutely to the point, but in another respect so is Emperoff's. Doug's always going to be a very low volume builder with a long waiting list... and if people are inspired by his work then that's kind of cool... although, on thinking about it, if anyone knows of someone who could build me an Explorer like Doug builds his super strat's I'm there! 

On my part, if I have any custom guitars built by other builders there is one aspect of Doug's methods that I will absolutely insist on - oil finish only, no paint or poly. He's got me converted on that point.

thedonutman - the Blackmachine body is more RG then Jackson (with thin horns, the exact geometry is his own design), but the neck is more Jackson then RG as he was a Jackson player.


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## badger71 (Apr 3, 2009)

To the OP: as you can see, there are varying opinions on this board...mostly in favor of the small luthier building the Blackmachine guitars. IME, once you start an independent luthier build, you'll generally move past the "copying" part and get into an actual "customized" guitar that fits your style....it may be a thin bodied 7 string, but in the end it probably won't even look remotely like what you intended. YMMV.

Now, you'll have to excuse me while I join some of the other board members and look at the recent Jaden Rose thread...you know, the small builder building Ibanez necks that remarkably resemble RG necks....maybe I can find someone to build me an RG body too....'cuz for some, it must be okay to rip off a large manufacturer and the designer who came up with that body design. Not saying it's wrong....I'm just sayin'......


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## cyril v (Apr 3, 2009)

IMO, the Blackmachine is just a variation of the Parker headstock.

I dunno if I'm weird for thinking that, but it's not entirely original either...


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## darren (Apr 3, 2009)

Even though it's derived from the Parker headstock, it's still distinctively Blackmachine.


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## MF_Kitten (Apr 3, 2009)

the blackmachine is like parker had sex with ibanez and gave birth to pure win. i love "cutout" headstocks like that! the one on Bulb's TIL8 comes to mind as well, and also the one on Kissa3's Roter


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## Stroked (Apr 3, 2009)

This guy can spend his money anyway he likes. The Blackmachine is in reality nothing more than a thin RG with a Parker-ish head stock. Blackmachine has NOT created something completely new. 
NO matter what it is a guitar with a srat shape......how many freaking RG 7 clones have we seen on this site and everyone goes crazy for them? Where was this issue then? 

And as far as a builder only building something new as Darren said, how would you make money? Just how origional can you even be without being completely disgusting? Your customer is coming to you probably because he has been influenced by 3 or 4 other guitars and wants to mold them all together. 
Saying you would only build one offs is like trying to be a mechanic that ONLY builds custom cars.

To the thread starter...BUILD AWAY!!!.....its your money and you should get exactly what you want with it.


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## sakeido (Apr 3, 2009)

HAUCH said:


> Meh. I would just save your duckets and get the real thing, buddy. From what I understand, Doug puts a great deal of thought and engineering into the guitars. The shear physics and detail involved with the Blackmachine's is what sets them apart. Its also why Doug doesn't make a bazillion guitars a year/extended waiting list. I think you'd be much happier with the real thing than a copy from Ran or Shamray.



They aren't worth a two year plus wait, nothing is. 

All the marketing that surrounds the "blackmachine advantage" is BS. They do sound incredible - unplugged. Plugged in, the difference is incredibly small and I seriously doubt that anyone could pick a blackmachine out from another guitar with Bareknuckles in a blind test. The neck profile on a B7 is exactly the same as the new Jackson COWs, they aren't as light as you would think (weigh more than my SLS3 and COW), they do not stand up to use well since they have no real finish..


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## Stroked (Apr 3, 2009)

ShadyDavey said:


> Imitation might be the most sincere form of flattery but its also guarnateed to bring any hard-working luthier or designer out in a raging fury. Don't get me wrong - Blackmachine's are flooping gorgeous and I'd do anything to get my paws on one but I _wouldn't _get another builder to copy the design.
> 
> *If I were another builder, I'd refuse to copy the design even if it lost me work simply because its just not on as far as I'm concerned.*




Well then people shouldnt support Jackson ot Ibanez cause it has a strat body....and no one should buy SD Blackouts cause they could be viewed as trying to take away from EMG......And dont buy line 6 stuff cause they try to model the origionals....


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## darren (Apr 3, 2009)

Stroked said:


> And as far as a builder only building something new as Darren said, how would you make money? Just how origional can you even be without being completely disgusting? Your customer is coming to you probably because he has been influenced by 3 or 4 other guitars and wants to mold them all together.
> Saying you would only build one offs is like trying to be a mechanic that ONLY builds custom cars.



I never said he should only be building one-offs. I said he should be making guitars he's designed himself.


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## Stroked (Apr 3, 2009)

darren said:


> I never said he should only be building one-offs. I said he should be making guitars he's designed himself.[/QU
> Sorry sir...I stand corrected


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## darren (Apr 3, 2009)

You might want to get a few more posts under your belt before you come in here and start throwing your weight around.


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## hufschmid (Apr 3, 2009)

> And as far as a builder only building something new as Darren said, how would you make money? Just how origional can you even be without being completely disgusting? Your customer is coming to you probably because he has been influenced by 3 or 4 other guitars and wants to mold them all together.
> Saying you would only build one offs is like trying to be a mechanic that ONLY builds custom cars.



I can speak up to this....

I think that its very bad to immitate a guitar from an artisan...

Most companys also copy the design of small independant artisans that they find on the net and then claim that they invented the design because they perfectly know that an artisan would never have the money to go and bring them to court....

As for what I am concerned if somebody would come up to me wanting a blackmachine headstock design I would refuse to build it.

Its just a matter of respecting the work of an other designer which I respect a lots....


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## possumkiller (Apr 3, 2009)

i wanted a prs private stock. well honestly i just wanted a really nice looking presque singlecut that i knew i could only get from private stock if i wanted a real prs. i got a private stock quote and changed my mind. so i specd it up with mike at shamray and i liked the price a LOT better. so shamray is building me a prs clone. do i care that its a copy? no. its my money, ill spend it how i want. shamray is in a position as of now to where they can build you damn near anything you want. i thought about doing a "blackmachine" 8 string through them as well as i had no luck in contacting doug. but i wasnt going to copy the BM i was just going to use some of the asthetic elements that i really like about them and apply it to my own v design. anyway, my point is, do i care about ripping off prs, fender, gibson, ibanez, or esp? no not really, they can afford to lose my business to shamray. but i wouldnt do a blatant ripoff of a BM.


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## Scar Symmetry (Apr 3, 2009)

darren said:


> You might want to get a few more posts under your belt before you come in here and start throwing your weight around.



+1 to that

the threadstarter asked for advice and it has been given to him.

even Hufschmid, a part of the luthier community believes it's a bad move.


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## E Lucevan Le Stelle (Apr 3, 2009)

sakeido said:


> They aren't worth a two year plus wait, nothing is.
> 
> All the marketing that surrounds the "blackmachine advantage" is BS. They do sound incredible - unplugged. Plugged in, the difference is incredibly small and I seriously doubt that anyone could pick a blackmachine out from another guitar with Bareknuckles in a blind test. The neck profile on a B7 is exactly the same as the new Jackson COWs, they aren't as light as you would think (weigh more than my SLS3 and COW), they do not stand up to use well since they have no real finish..



I'm going to call you out on this one...

As most people here know, I've both owned and played a hell of a lot of top-end custom guitars - besides my Blackmachine - Jackson CS, Ibanez LACS, ESP CS, Parker, Moser CS, KxK, EBMM, Vigier... I had a KxK SII-7 with similar specs to my B7 and an identical pickup configuration, and the two sounded nothing alike. In fact, soundwise - PLUGGED IN - the Blackmachine was way ahead. Despite the KxK's longer scale length, the Blackmachine still sounded more defined and aggressive on the low strings. The difference was definitely enough I'd be able to tell which was which blind, same with my other guitars.

The finish I'd say might be a concern as it would show damage more, but guitars are there to be played...

As for 2 year waits, both Jackson and ESP custom shops have 18 month wait times, and a lot of other custom shops are a year or more... I guess here we have a luxury in a lot of smaller places which haven't been as massively noticed yet.

On the main point of the thread - doing an imitation of another luthier's design is shitty etiquette and not something most luthiers would sign up to. A standard guitar like a Strat, Les Paul, PRS-ish single or double cut or RG/generic superstrat... sure. Someone with very specific construction techniques and a very identifiable design... nothx.


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## Stroked (Apr 3, 2009)

Throw my weight around?....lol. 
I am not even going to have this turn into some little internet warrior showdown.
My post count reflects NOTHING about my abilities on the guitar, and has NOTHING to do with my opinion. 
I delivered my opinion and it is a just one. This guy can build/purchase what ever he wants.



Scar Symmetry said:


> +1 to that
> 
> the threadstarter asked for advice and it has been given to him.
> 
> even Hufschmid, a part of the luthier community believes it's a bad move.




Yeah and he was also given my opinion....I really hope you are not implying that my opinion does not count because of a low post count.....if so LOGIC>YOU......And Scar Symmetry is god!


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## AgentWalrus (Apr 3, 2009)

darren said:


> You might want to get a few more posts under your belt before you come in here and start throwing your weight around.



haha how cool do you feel with 9000 posts? you must be one fat son of a bitch


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## Stroked (Apr 3, 2009)

hufschmid said:


> I can speak up to this....
> 
> I think that its very bad to immitate a guitar from an artisan...
> 
> ...



Totally understood and agree. Trying to duplicate bm EXACTLY would be wrong.


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## E Lucevan Le Stelle (Apr 3, 2009)

AgentWalrus said:


> haha how cool do you feel with 9000 posts? you must be one fat son of a bitch



Ooh, you done said it now...


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## Scar Symmetry (Apr 3, 2009)

Stroked said:


> Throw my weight around?....lol.
> I am not even going to have this turn into some little internet warrior showdown.
> My post count reflects NOTHING about my abilities on the guitar, and has NOTHING to do with my opinion.
> I delivered my opinion and it is a just one. This guy can build/purchase what ever he wants.
> ...



he mentioned nothing about your ability on guitar. but here is the same as any community, you have to earn your stripes before you can throw your weight around with bold statements. I'm still earning mine, and you'll have to do the same.


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## possumkiller (Apr 3, 2009)

lol too late


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Apr 3, 2009)

my ONLY beefs with this thread are that Blackmachine, and a shit ton of other guitar manufacturers have just ripped off the strat body style so much so, that a blackmachine body is REALLY just a rip off of an RG body, which is REALLY just a rip off of a Stratocaster body. So how is that fair excatly. Not to mention, as said earlier, a blackmachine headstock is similar to the parker design.

Over all, IMO, its perfectly acceptable to make strat and prs knock offs, ya see them all the time, same with many of the other body styles and headstocks, so why is it taboo that you do it with a blackmachine?? I suspect that the BM owners that paid exuberant prices(u.s. guys atleast) feel it cheapens the BM aura, but i think is elietist bullshit. 

I think its perfectly fine aslong as you dont advertize it as a blackmachine. Strat guys dont care if there are strat knockoffs. Why should BM? Besides, if the BlackMachines are these mystical beasts that everyone who plays them says, then they will speak for them selves and everyone will know BM's are better.

But for the record, for some of you that say that doug is the only one who can do what he does?? Hes a man like all of us, he puts his pants on 1 leg at a time. Wake up and realize that there are tons and tons of small luithers that are JUST as talented AND knowldgable. 

Its like everything else. A year ago EVERYONE had to have an Engl Invader because it was just the hot item. Same deal here. Its like Sakeido said, i seriously doubt anyone would beable to tell the differance between a blackmachine and another guitar of similar specs on a recording.

Us guitarists are silly silly placebo fools sometimes. 



edit: it sounds like i'm downing BM here after reading this. In truth i would kill my own mama in the street for one because they look so awesome, but thats why, not because of their "hype"


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## HumanFuseBen (Apr 3, 2009)

hmm, seems unethical to me.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Apr 3, 2009)

HumanFuseBen said:


> hmm, seems unethical to me.



ehh? Whos cares really though? There isnt much ethics left in business anyway. And the people who have them, usually go poor


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## toolsound (Apr 3, 2009)

The main reason why I don't see a problem with this is due to the waiting list. If blackmachine is backed up to hell and back then what's wrong with another guy saying, "Hey, I can make something similar for you right away" ? 

If I was ready to buy a guitar, I wouldn't want to wait X number of months/years either.


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## hairychris (Apr 3, 2009)

Hahaha fucking bollocks whatever.

Spent the evening palying my snakewood necked Blackmachine B2, PRS Cu24 Rosewood neck Artist Pack (you know, $4k+ street price + Bareknuckles), Schecter C-7 Hellraicer and Agile 8 string.

PRS is a nice guitar but has a very um plasticky feeling even with the very nice neck.

Blackmachine fucking smokes it. Different p'ups but I'm only playing through my shitty bedroom rig.

Playability? Sorry, played a decent one-off by Doug? No fucking competition.

Haha, drunk and fucking metalling it.


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## badger71 (Apr 3, 2009)

toolsound said:


> The main reason why I don't see a problem with this is due to the waiting list. If blackmachine is backed up to hell and back then what's wrong with another guy saying, "Hey, I can make something similar for you right away" ?
> 
> If I was ready to buy a guitar, I wouldn't want to wait X number of months/years either.


 
^Business 101 from the mouth of a forumite^ If the demand is great, yet the supply is limited, soon there will be competition to quench that demand....world capitalism at it's finest....ethics be damned.


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## hairychris (Apr 3, 2009)

hufschmid said:


> I can speak up to this....
> 
> I think that its very bad to immitate a guitar from an artisan...
> 
> ...



Yo Patrick!

I swear that one day I'll own one of your guitars. Fucking straight. I just need to sort ythe cash out.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Apr 3, 2009)

Just change the headstock and body.


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## hairychris (Apr 3, 2009)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> my ONLY beefs with this thread are that Blackmachine, and a shit ton of other guitar manufacturers have just ripped off the strat body style so much so, that a blackmachine body is REALLY just a rip off of an RG body, which is REALLY just a rip off of a Stratocaster body. So how is that fair excatly. Not to mention, as said earlier, a blackmachine headstock is similar to the parker design.



Body, well, yeah the strat worked out to be the daddy. Parker headstock, well, is blockier & less secksay then Doug's design. 



7 Strings of Hate said:


> Over all, IMO, its perfectly acceptable to make strat and prs knock offs, ya see them all the time, same with many of the other body styles and headstocks, so why is it taboo that you do it with a blackmachine?? I suspect that the BM owners that paid exuberant prices(u.s. guys atleast) feel it cheapens the BM aura, but i think is elietist bullshit.



Well, as far as I'm concerned it's copyright. You want to try to do what Doug does, yeah, give it a go.

As for aura, well, unlike most people her I own one of them (gonna be 2 in a couple of weeks) and have known Doug for 7+ years. I don't give a FUCK if his guitars are elite. He does his thing, and you''re into it or you aren't. End of story.



7 Strings of Hate said:


> I think its perfectly fine aslong as you dont advertize it as a blackmachine. Strat guys dont care if there are strat knockoffs. Why should BM? Besides, if the BlackMachines are these mystical beasts that everyone who plays them says, then they will speak for them selves and everyone will know BM's are better.



A bunch of the people who're saing shit don't know shit. That's it.

BTW I'd love a Sherman but I've never played one. That means what, exactly?

Oh, and 'BM' is one dude in a spare room. You have no idea how humble Doug is when it comes to his builds. 



7 Strings of Hate said:


> But for the record, for some of you that say that doug is the only one who can do what he does?? Hes a man like all of us, he puts his pants on 1 leg at a time. Wake up and realize that there are tons and tons of small luithers that are JUST as talented AND knowldgable.



True in a lot of respects. BUT there are very few luthiers that I've seen with Doug's aesthetic. Hufschmid is VERY similar although different at the same time. 



7 Strings of Hate said:


> Its like everything else. A year ago EVERYONE had to have an Engl Invader because it was just the hot item. Same deal here. Its like Sakeido said, i seriously doubt anyone would beable to tell the differance between a blackmachine and another guitar of similar specs on a recording.



That may be true. I couldn't tell the difference between the recorded tone of a Blackmachine and that of any other very high quality guitar.

The physical experience, though, of playing my B2 is just something else... I'm kind of pissed that I mainly play 7 string now because I no longer have the daily sex that playing my snakey B2 provided.



7 Strings of Hate said:


> Us guitarists are silly silly placebo fools sometimes.



Ahahahahahha, too fucking right! 



7 Strings of Hate said:


> edit: it sounds like i'm downing BM here after reading this. In truth i would kill my own mama in the street for one because they look so awesome, but thats why, not because of their "hype"



Dude, next time you're in London I'll piump you out mine.  Absolutely individual guitars, not for every one, but 100&#37; good shiz if you catch Doug's method behind his builds.


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## darren (Apr 3, 2009)

Well, Fender recently lost a trade mark battle over the Stratocaster body. They started their fight probably 40 years too late, and it's been copied so many times that they pretty much have no right to ownership of it any more.

Ripping off intellectual property is wrong, and it's against the law. Some people don't respect copyright, patents, trade marks, etc. and just don't give a shit. They'll whore themselves out to whomever wants to pay them money to copy anything instead of doing something creative and original.

The aftermarket for replacement parts is different. Want a swamp ash RG body? You're not going to get it from Ibanez, and as long as you're not putting an Ibanez logo on it, they seem to be cool with letting others feed the continued interest in their products.


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## eaeolian (Apr 3, 2009)

AgentWalrus said:


> haha how cool do you feel with 9000 posts? you must be one fat son of a bitch



Haha, enjoy a 24 hour nap. Next time it's a week.


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## krillicafoe (Apr 4, 2009)

i waas planning on changing apecsts on the guitar but their would be taht bm influence to it. but thanks guys. like i said. im not out to hurt anyone. thats why i wanted othere\ peoples 2 cents. thanks evreyone who took the time to read this


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## TemjinStrife (Apr 4, 2009)

See, I like the idea of a slim guitar with an ebony top. That's not really ripping off Blackmachine, is it? Even if it's an RG-ish shape. I think the headstock would be a bit too much (I think it's kinda ugly anyways) so have your friend use his own design.

Without the headstock and the "Made by Blackmachine" plate on the back, it's just a really slim superstrat with an exotic wood top. Not too weird, really...


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## canuck brian (Apr 4, 2009)

Don't copy the headstock and don't copy the metal plate logo. Both of those are distinctively Dougs - pretty much anyone on this site could spot a Blackmachine headstock in a sea of guitars and the plate logo, to me, is Doug's signature. Copying either - boo.

It's essentially a slimline RG with subtle changes just like Temjin said, so unless you outright copy the headstock and the backplate, I couldn't really see anyone having issues if you based a custom on one of his.


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## skinhead (Apr 4, 2009)

Maybe you can get a superstrat with the same specs of a blackmachine, but for god sake, don't rip off their models. Be more original.


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## JaxoBuzzo (Apr 4, 2009)

If your going to rip off anything,rip off a Blackdroid


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## Fred (Apr 4, 2009)

This thread makes me want a Blackmachine even more... .


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## BRUTALIZER GUITARS (Apr 4, 2009)

I see nothing wroung with a one off custom at all, fact is that its going to happen at some point, what I dont like is when a Large company "cough..BC RICH...cough..cough" steals designs and calls them there own and mass produces it


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## Koshchei (Apr 4, 2009)

I think it's fine to emulate the guitar, but not ok to plagiarize it.


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## ugmung (Apr 4, 2009)

well, i would be okay if he took some of his ideas into account, with woods, and neck joints, cool contours and what not. and if he makes it bigger with availablity and cost, then that is then just sheer competition.


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## krillicafoe (Apr 4, 2009)

yea. im going to play with the headstock design and making it neck thru with different neck woods. and throw some bk in it


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## hairychris (Apr 6, 2009)

That's OK then. There'll never be a neck-thru Blackmachine AFAIK!


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## a7stringkilla (Apr 6, 2009)

how many people on here have actually spent a good amount of time playing a black machine? i would think not many have but every thread about them has everybody blowing them up to be the greatest thing ever. it seems like everybody is afraid to say something bad about them. im not trying to dog on them at all but unless i can play one first, ill spend my money somewhere else. as long as your builder doesnt put a blackmachine logo on it then you should go for it.


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## hairychris (Apr 7, 2009)

There are a few of us around - I'm a B2 owner since 2006, for instance, but one with massively non-standard specs. I had a couple of USA Jacksons that it made feel like toys IMO. They're long since gone now, the only other 6 string I use is a PRS, and even that doesn't feel quite as solid to play. Been through some Carvins too (great instruments IMO), didn't use them enough to keep. Are Blackmachines the greatest thing ever? Fuck knows! I haven't played everything... and if you want stuff like neck-thru or trem or so-on then they aren't for you.

But yeah, as I drunkenly posted on Friday, there's a lot of people who don't know in the same way that I don't know what a Sherman plays like, for instance. Doen't stop me from lusting after one, though!

Playing one first is tough. You've got to find someone near you who owns one first!  There are quite a few of us here in London. 

A7stringkilla, if you spend your cash on another small scale luthier's work then props!


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## NiCkMiLnE (Apr 7, 2009)

darren said:


> I think when a small builder like blackmachine is doing something new and interesting, taking his design ideas to another builder and having them knock it off "on the cheap" is unethical.
> 
> If i were a builder, i would flat-out refuse to build anything that wasn't of my own design.
> 
> ...





 +1
as a luthier, i wholeheartedly agree.
sure, if a customer said "i want something LIKE an RG, but this bit changed..this bit modified.." etc...depending on the changes - i may be willing to build.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Apr 8, 2009)

hairychris said:


> Dude, next time you're in London I'll piump you out mine.  Absolutely individual guitars, not for every one, but 100% good shiz if you catch Doug's method behind his builds.


i'l probably never come to london, but if i do, you bet your ass i'm taking you up on that 


also, someone mentioned a copyright? unless your mass producing them or trying to sell them besides a 1 off, then the copyright laws wont apply. If they DID, then everyone on the forum practically would be in jail


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## sakeido (Apr 8, 2009)

a7stringkilla said:


> how many people on here have actually spent a good amount of time playing a black machine? i would think not many have but every thread about them has everybody blowing them up to be the greatest thing ever. it seems like everybody is afraid to say something bad about them. im not trying to dog on them at all but unless i can play one first, ill spend my money somewhere else. as long as your builder doesnt put a blackmachine logo on it then you should go for it.



They're just a guitar. I played one and no doubt it was eons better than anything I own, but it wasn't the best playing 7 I've ever touched.. just the coolest looking and best sounding unplugged. Plugged in it sounds very nice as well but it was a very minimal improvement over a decent guitar with Bareknuckle pickups in it and this particular example took two years to make and didn't intonate properly on the low B or stay in tune very well until a local tech did something to it. Not worth the cash, wait time or frustration IMO.. I sold my deposit not long after. That said, I still want a blackmachine but if I ever pick one up, I'd be buying it used.


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## a7stringkilla (Apr 8, 2009)

sakeido said:


> They're just a guitar. I played one and no doubt it was eons better than anything I own, but it wasn't the best playing 7 I've ever touched.. just the coolest looking and best sounding unplugged. Plugged in it sounds very nice as well but it was a very minimal improvement over a decent guitar with Bareknuckle pickups in it and this particular example took two years to make and didn't intonate properly on the low B or stay in tune very well until a local tech did something to it. Not worth the cash, wait time or frustration IMO.. I sold my deposit not long after. That said, I still want a blackmachine but if I ever pick one up, I'd be buying it used.



thanks for that cause i dont know shit about them. handmade is awesome but i think people swing on blackmachine is cause its just a different guitar and a bit hard to get. if they were full production and available everywhere i doubt they would get the praise they get now. its like if youre married for ten years or something, youre always gonna wanna fuck a pornstar or hotass stripper.


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## Uber Mega (Apr 12, 2009)

hairychris said:


> Hahaha fucking bollocks whatever.
> 
> Spent the evening palying my snakewood necked Blackmachine B2, PRS Cu24 Rosewood neck Artist Pack (you know, $4k+ street price + Bareknuckles), Schecter C-7 Hellraicer and Agile 8 string.
> 
> ...



Awesome, I had the same/a similar PRS rosewood artist pack (NAMM '03 special edition, Quilt)...my worst decision as a guitarist was to sell it. 

Funnily enough my second worst decision was to wait 16 months or so for my own Blackmachine B7  Excellent guitar, but I stopped playing shortly after receiving it. E Lucevan Le Stelle has given it a home.

@Krillicafoe, Doug (Mr Blackmachine) himself would be the first to tell you that his guitars are heavily influenced by the things he likes most in his own guitars: JEMs/RGs, PRS etc. and obviously the headstock is a take on Parker's that he's refined over a few years...there's nothing wrong with inspiration, but I seriously wouldn't just get an exact copy of a BM just for the sake of it. At the end of the day, It'll never be an authentic Doug Campbell Blackmachine, no matter how similar it looks or sounds...so why not combine what you like about the BMs and Doug's design ethics with what you want in your dream guitar and come up with your own take on it? there's nothing wrong with that


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## bulb (Apr 12, 2009)

the simple fact of the matter that so many people seem to miss when someone talks about a guitar they are crazy about is that one person's ideal guitar will not be anothers.
i think that my blackmachine b6 is singlehandedly one of the best playing, feeling and sounding 6 string i have played in my life (only beaten slightly by nolly's b2!)
and the f8 is one of the most flawless 8s out there imo, it has solved every issue i have had with 8 strings ever.

but this is ALL in my opinion, and i guarantee some of you guys would disagree.

i feel like there has been a lot of hype (and maybe unnecessary hype) because most people who have owned a BM have loved them, but thats not to say that everyone would. They have a VERY specific feel and are made to a VERY specific standard, and so a lot of people wouldnt dig that. In objective terms they are made to the highest standard, as in my BMs intonate better than any guitar i have owned or played and they stay in tune better (which has always been my curse on stag) than anything else out there. 
But subjectively i feel like they were built exactly the way i would want them to be built and i think they are some of the most aesthetically pleasing instruments out there. 
Subjectively! So for each person in this thread there is their ideal guitar, and for some it would be a blackmachine, for some it wouldnt. There is no need for hype. 
All i have to say is that playing one will definitely help you figure out if its your thing or not. If you play one and you dont think its anything special, then its not for you. But i had NO intention of ever buying one, and after trying out a few of them i knew i had to own one. I now have 2 and plan on having more in the future!!

anyways, thats my little rant 
lets just not forget that all that are expressed here are opinions, not absolute truths


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Apr 12, 2009)

Uber Mega said:


> @Krillicafoe, Doug (Mr Blackmachine) himself would be the first to tell you that his guitars are heavily influenced by the things he likes most in his own guitars: JEMs/RGs, PRS etc. and obviously the headstock is a take on Parker's that he's refined over a few years...there's nothing wrong with inspiration, but I seriously wouldn't just get an exact copy of a BM just for the sake of it. At the end of the day, It'll never be an authentic Doug Campbell Blackmachine, no matter how similar it looks or sounds...so why not combine what you like about the BMs and Doug's design ethics with what you want in your dream guitar and come up with your own take on it? there's nothing wrong with that



this


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## thinkpad20 (Apr 12, 2009)

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I mean from an ethical standpoint it's a grey area - when you copy a BlackMachine, what exactly are you copying? BlackMachine guitars are not THAT unique looking... except for the headstock they basically just look like any other RG superstrat but made out of fancy woods. There is nothing unique about the pickups, woods, bridge, electronics config, etc - NOTHING except the headstock and the construction.

If what separates them from other guitars is how they sound and play, then you're not going to be able to replicate that anyway. Of course you still might end up with a great guitar, but it won't be a BlackMachine. And from an advertising point of view, the effect would be negligible - anyone who knew what a BM looked like would think it was that; anyone who asked you you'd probably tell them "it's built by ______ but it's based off of this guitar company called BlackMachine etc."

That said if I was going to get a custom guitar, I would want it to be really unique looking - getting a custom guitar that is a visual copy of another guitar seems like a wasted opportunity.



Oh, and a BIG -1 to people discounting others opinions because of post count. You can post a lot, or post a little; the validity of what you have to say is not connected. If Doug logged on and told you his opinion, would you tell him "You might want to get a few more posts under your belt before you come in here and start throwing your weight around."?


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Apr 12, 2009)

thinkpad20 said:


> Oh, and a BIG -1 to people discounting others opinions because of post count. You can post a lot, or post a little; the validity of what you have to say is not connected. If Doug logged on and told you his opinion, would you tell him "You might want to get a few more posts under your belt before you come in here and start throwing your weight around."?



low post count guys inevitably kinda have to show the regulars that they are credible and not just random nuts i guess


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## Æxitosus (Apr 12, 2009)

the only thing i really find significant about the blackmachine is the headstock. its nifty, ya know?


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## thinkpad20 (Apr 13, 2009)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> low post count guys inevitably kinda have to show the regulars that they are credible and not just random nuts i guess



Indeed, but they can show that by giving reasoned, articulate and thoughtful commentary, more than simply having made a lot of posts. High post count generally means you're familiar with the people on the forum, and you have a good idea of the forum dynamics and whatnot, but it doesn't _necessarily _say anything about your knowledge of the subject matter.


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## Stitch (Apr 13, 2009)

ITT: People who have played a BM + people who want a BM vs. People who haven't played a BM and don't get it + Sakeido.



On the upside, at least there's some reasoning behind th eposts in here. Bravo chaps.


(hammered)


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## a7stringkilla (Apr 13, 2009)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> low post count guys inevitably kinda have to show the regulars that they are credible and not just random nuts i guess



someone can show credibility with just a couple posts, really. if someone thinks its based on post count then they are a fuckin nerd. maybe a "low post count guy" is practicing or building or doing something creative rather than posting all day and night. a guy that says dumb shit in his first post is probably gonna say dumb shit in 5000th post. the calluses on my fingers are from playing, not from typing and i got a vid on here to prove it.


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## soundjeneer (Jul 3, 2012)

Back to the topic...
I see some questions in another (closed) thread about the Blackmachine design and copy or not.
Let me get the light into it.
Honestly, I can say I have some experience with material an its mechanical properties therefor I can make a try to explain some things in case of a question "why BMs are designed like they are".

Please, note that all this theory presumes a top notch quality material is used (!!!)
Please, note that I have never met Doug or any owner of this guitar and have never played one of these.
I fully respect Doug's job. I am not a guitar builder.
I am not throwing anyone's know how here in the space, that's all just a deduction of my own.
Please, note that I am not a native speaker so sorry for my mistakes.

Headstock:
Lot of opinions are like "It goes from the Parker...". That is true. In fact, ask yourself: "And why Parker uses this kind of designed headstock?" This is because the tone is created in the fingerboard and goes through the neck to the body. Whole tone colour and nuance specifics comes from the neck & the fingerboard. This specifics are mostly affected by:
a) The angle of the headstock vs. neck or - if I am more accurate - the angle between the string from tunning machine to the nut and from the nut to the bridge. You can find an explanation on the web.
b) !!! The less amount of material is used for a headstock, the better results you will get then. It means that material of the headstock negatively affects the tone. Why do you think the headless Hohner are without the headstock then? Hm?

Neck:
I do not know exact diemensions but I suppose that if BM is created as a non compromise tone producer there should be something bigger than Ibanez Wizard neck.
Materials are chosen for a reason of tone and because of its hardness. Ebony fillets are there because of a torsional stress - this solution is more stress resistant then a titanium rods. And I can say that it has a huge visual aspect also. Very modern nowadays - it simply corresponds with the rest of a BM design and looks so luxury.

Body:
This is just a standard, little modified superstrat / RG style body, nothing special here in case of a platform. When we are talking about the knobs and switch position - yes, that is an original solution, not so ergonomic but why not. This configuration brings a little problem here. You need to solve a wire tunnel for a jack. That's why BMs have a metal plates on back. It is a simple nice cover for a wire with logo on it  Cool solution. Still nothing special - just an extra work for a builder 
In case of a body thickness - I would just say that you don't need so much material here because a lot of sound is done in the neck. And just look at Gibson SGs - they're thin almost the same way!!!

Comment: If you pay so much money for this piece of instrument I suppose the wood for a body and built neck sounds in the same note or are in harmonic tones so they can work together - it's necessary for a good sustain (here can be a potential risk of scrap!)

Chamfering: is there from two reasons I think:
a) There is no paint, (and ivoroid contour is only on the front side) so sharp edges can be easily damaged just during the normal usage.
b) Every sharp edge is always a problem in case of resonance traveling/circulating in the material. You may eliminate some disturbances when you have a chamfer - logically. The redundant resonances directed towards the back side can smoothly go away from the body. That is the reason also for:

No paint:
Paint (and it pays for a nitrocelluose also) is like a shell for a body but:
- It is good as a protection from unwanted damages like scratches and so...
- It may have a big visual potential if you like it...
- It limitates the resonance and closes it inside of the guitar body... That is the main constructional reason why BMs stays with just an oil finish.
- It causes that the humidity is locked inside of the wood (nitro is not so bad like the others)

So chamfering and "no paint" goes hand in hand together!

Pickups:
Here we are hitting the nail on its head. Eventhough it is electric guitar and ofcourse quality matereial + perfect construction is used, there is no doubt the pups play a huge role here... and guess why almost everything is equipped by Bare Knuckles Pickups? Cause these are really amazing! I got a calibrated set of Aftermaths and really love'em. 

That's it... I just used my brain with a bit of a pain  

So BM is everything but the SOUND is a constructional priority here!!! It's not a miracle, Doug just used a well known procedures and standards to obtain a best sound results. Really nothing new under the sun.

If I should make a conclusion about the BM by compare to another guitar I would say the Gibson SG + Jackson + bit of RG.
And the answer to the question "to copy or not if you're going to place an order to your local luthier" is just - noone can forbid it and noone will recommend it. So it's subjective matter and it's totally up to you and the builder. I've seen many copies... you just name it... If you'll go for copy from any reason, Doug still have a job to do... a looot of job!

Oh yes. There's a little problem. The lucky Doug has created something nice and good and Bulb, Nolly, Pin, they just did a perfect advertisement to this product which costs a lot of $$$ and top of that - it's very hard to get one because of the limited production capacities (Doug makes them himself). So we can be completely sure that we can expect a more copies (or BM insipired or whatever you call it) out there during a time whether we like it or not. That's the reality.


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## themike (Jul 3, 2012)




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## canuck brian (Jul 3, 2012)

> And the answer to the question "to copy or not if you're going to place an order to your local luthier" is just - noone can forbid it and noone will recommend it. So it's subjective matter and it's totally up to you and the builder. I've seen many copies... you just name it... If you'll go for copy from any reason, Doug still have a job to do... a looot of job!



Actually there are a lot of laws, copyrights and tools available to people to stop other people from copying their work. It all depends on where the guitar is being built. ESP had a run in with Jackson regarding this and Gibson for the longest time was after PRS. BM's are practically impossible to obtain so getting a copy is probably the only way some people have available to really play something similar. It's already happened with the Ibanez M8M as well. I really thought the Terrormachine copy that I saw on here recently looked phenomenal. I don't dig people normally getting copies of a guitar, but in the case of Blackmachines where getting one is about as probable as seeing a unicorn, I see people left with no other choice but to get a copy.



> b) !!! The less amount of material is used for a headstock, the better results you will get then. It means that material of the headstock negatively affects the tone. Why do you think the headless Hohner are without the headstock then? Hm?



Technically I can lock down my floyd locking nut and bandsaw the headstock off to gain a better sound? 

There is nothing out there proving whatsoever that less material for the headstock equates to a better sounding guitar. Can we please PLEASE stop trying to find some mysticism behind guitar that people equate to a holy grail that they haven't and probably will not ever play? I'm sure they're great guitars but holy christ guys, please stop this.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 3, 2012)

canuck brian said:


> ESP had a run in


 
Is there a company that ESP _hasn't_ had a run in with?


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## HighGain510 (Jul 3, 2012)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Is there a company that ESP _hasn't_ had a run in with?


 
Truth.


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## Thrashmanzac (Jul 3, 2012)

^burns?
edit: although no company in their right mind would infringe on burns's designs.


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## narad (Jul 3, 2012)

soundjeneer said:


> Back to the topic...
> I see some questions in another (closed) thread about the Blackmachine design and copy or not.
> Let me get the light into it.
> Honestly, I can say I have some experience with material an its mechanical properties therefor I can make a try to explain some things in case of a question "why BMs are designed like they are".
> ...



Sorry, but I feel like this is the kind of wordy, semantically-void response I'd get if I was judging a beauty pageant and had asked a contestant, "Miss South Carolina, blackmachines are pretty great guitars. Can you explain why this is?"

The only guy that should be explaining blackmachine construction vs. sound is Doug. And not to contradict that statement, but I'm pretty sure that all the non-obvious points are just wrong.


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