# Sanding sealer, and dye?



## teamSKDM (Jul 11, 2012)

Hey guys, just curious as to what steps I should go about dying the face on my rga121. I was gonna make it a little darker than the maple sides and was curious as to if I apply the sanding sealer before, or after I sand the dye?

So would it be 

Dye, sand Off dye, apply sealer, sand off sealer, then apply finish clear coats?


----------



## ej207t (Jul 11, 2012)

heya SKDM,

im currently in the process of refinishing an agile. i oiled the back and stained the top. i was too scared to sand the sanding sealer off the back of the neck just in case i sand too much off and completely muff the shape.

when i oiled the back, i noticed the neck was much lighter than the maple / mahogany body. so i'd say if the sealers on there, the stain wont seep into the wood. 

experiment with the stain, what i did was

stain, stain, wipe off excess with rag dipped in spirits, stained till i was happy. then 3 coats of sanding sealer (i used behlen rattle can stuff), sand back, then 3 more coats of sealer with sanding in between each coat, then applied about 3 coats of lacquer, sand back, then applied about 9 - 12 more.

currently in the polishing stage and its come up really good so far


----------



## silent_k (Jul 11, 2012)

If you're using a dye, you do not want to seal the wood first or the dye won't be able to penetrate, which is how dyes work (stains sit on top of the wood and dyes penetrate it, which is why dyes are used often on figured woods where the exposed end grain can absorb more dye than the surrounding wood, making it pop). And like ej said, definitely test on scrap first! You may want to apply more than one coat of dye before you seal -- I've found on my projects that it usually takes at least two dye applications to really get the depth of color I want. What sealer and top coat are you planning to use?

You may also want to try applying the sealer with different applicators -- I used a foam brush to apply the seal coats on the last project I dyed, and while it took up a little of the dye (just about anything will -- it's more a question of degree) it mostly left it looking OK.

Also be sure to read the directions for the sealer and top coat you're using (and if you haven't already, search around for tips from other people who've used those same products) -- seal coats are generally not sanded off completely, just lightly leveled, although that may not be necessary depending again on what product you're using and how you're applying it. You may only need to lightly scuff with some steel wool before applying your top coat.


----------



## teamSKDM (Jul 12, 2012)

If you check out my rga121 refinish thread, all the info on my materials is there! I would heavily appreciate if you'd check it out and get back to me!


----------



## silent_k (Jul 12, 2012)

Ah, OK -- I see now what you're planning to use. I've only ever used Minwax stain on a bookcase, which was top coated with polyurethane rather than lacquer. Something you may want to consider is using a pre-stain conditioner, which Minwax makes, that can help the stain go on evenly -- on my bookcase that mattered because I'd built it from plywood, which is often harder to stain evenly than regular wood. If you haven't already, start doing some googling about using Minwax and Deft products together -- I don't imagine there are compatibility issues, but chances are someone has tried that combo before and posted about it somewhere. There may, for example, be considerations having to do with timing (like how long you need to let the stained guitar sit before hitting it with the sealer & lacquer). You could also contact the manufacturers -- I know Minwax has a forum that I've used before and was quite helpful. I don't say any of this with the assumption that there's some kind of issue using this particular stain and lacquer -- it's just obviously best to know in advance how they're likely to play together. And if you don't already have one, get a respirator before you even think about spraying that lacquer -- it's nasty stuff. Beware of humidity when you're using it, too -- lacquer is VERY sensitive that way and can get cloudy if it's too humid when you spray it.

I would head back to Lowes or Home Depot and pick up a cheap piece of maple to use to test a few things: first, how the stain and sealer/lacquer work together (and the difference between using the conditioner and not, if you want to try that), and how many coats of stain you need to apply to get the color/shade you want, AND what you'll need to use in terms of masking to prevent the stain from going beyond where you want it to. Did you want to maintain the side edge of the maple top as natural or were you going to stain that, too, and just mask off the mahogany back? With some test material you can see how well (or poorly) different masking tapes work to keep the stain where you want it -- regular masking tape generally works pretty well (I'd use a low-tack 3M tape), but for things like pin striping people often use vinyl tape, which you'll likely find at an automotive supply store. I used vinyl tape for a project that had a natural binding and a dyed top not long ago and it worked OK.

I also noticed the pic of the dent in the back -- if that is in fact a dent and not a gouge, you might be able to raise the wood back up with the application of moisture and heat. Take a piece of cotton t-shirt material ( you can buy bags of wiping rags at Lowes/HD that work perfectly for this and come in handy for lots of other things, too), get it damp but not soaking, dripping wet, then place it over the dent. With your soldering iron set at a medium or medium-low heat setting, place the tip on top of the wet cotton, not holding it in any one place for too long. This creates a very small amount of penetrating steam that can actually raise up places where the wood has been dented because those dents are where the wood fibers have been compressed rather than torn or shredded, so the heat and moisture can cause them to re-expand to their old shape. That dent looks pretty deep, but you might be able to at least get it a bit closer to the surrounding surface that way. Dan Erlewine's book explains this technique in more detail -- I've used it lots of times on small dents and it works great. This would be another good thing to practice first on scrap!

Sorry I can't be more specific about the particular products you've selected, but again I imagine others have used these things together in the past and the info should be out there. That's an awesome looking body and it should turn out great!


----------



## teamSKDM (Jul 12, 2012)

Wow! Thanks a ton! You were a huuuuge help, I will definitely take your word on everything, and definitely test it out on a maple blank first. Also , I did plan on easing the dent with the same method!


----------

