# Cutest boys in metal



## JohnIce (Feb 10, 2015)

The Cutest Boys in Metal 2015 | NOISEY



As a fan of metal and gender equality, this post is just all kinds of awesome  Really should make you think twice about how women are actually treated in the metal scene.


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## wat (Feb 10, 2015)

How ARE women treated in the metal scene?


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## JohnIce (Feb 10, 2015)

wat said:


> How ARE women treated in the metal scene?



Pretty much exactly like the dudes in the article. That's the joke


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## Randy (Feb 10, 2015)

They'd get the D.


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## Forrest_H (Feb 10, 2015)

I lost it at CARPATHIAN FOREST


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## kamello (Feb 10, 2015)




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## stevexc (Feb 10, 2015)

This is hilarious. Much better than Revolver's annual "Let's support gender equality by objectifying women" bullshit.


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## Chokey Chicken (Feb 10, 2015)

I need to read the rest when I get back home, but it is indeed amusing so far. Replace all the references to male with female and it's every painful article ever written about women in metal.


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## TedEH (Feb 10, 2015)

> Heavy metal has a problem with sexism. Every year, we get a big fat reminder of that fact from Revolver Magazine and their female-heavy Hottest Chicks in Metal/Hard Rock issue. This year, like every year, theres only one question equality-minded folks find themselves asking: What about the men?



I get that it's a joke, but I can't disagree more with this whole premise. Everything has a "sexism problem" these days. Is the whole eye-for-an-eye approach really appropriate here? I feel like nobody ever looks at the bigger picture. Does Revolver do a sexy metal-chick article because metal music and culture demands that they do so? Or is it more likely that they do so because it's well known that sexy women sell magazines, regardless of the subject? Does that make magazines sexist? Why does nobody ever step back and say "hey, maybe there are people with less-than-equal views of the sexes who permeate every facet of out modern society", instead of immediately labeling anything involving a high male-to-female participation ratio, or individual manifestations of what's likely a deeper problem, as being immediately abhorrent. 

An article that objectifies a few men would have been fine on it's own (and honestly, objectification in the right context doesn't have to be automatically evil)- but the subtext that paints metalheads as sexist jerks is ridiculous.


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## blaaargh (Feb 10, 2015)

Male-Fronted Hardcore Band Proves That Guys Can Rock, Too |
10 Shocking Photos of Hardcore Frontmen Without Makeup! |

The Hard Times did something like this a couple days ago. That was a funny article tho



TedEH said:


> #notallmen



Yes, that absolutely makes magazines sexist. And as for metal culture being made up of a bunch of sexist jerks, well... http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/ge...57938-awesome-female-guitarists-thread-3.html
(Obviously not everyone who's into metal is like that, but when the default reaction of the majority of metal fans to a girl playing it is HURR SHOW US UR TITS it's not exactly the most welcoming subculture for women)


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## Mprinsje (Feb 10, 2015)

I was expecting all kinds of japanese bands. Alas...


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## Spaced Out Ace (Feb 10, 2015)

Mprinsje said:


> I was expecting all kinds of japanese bands. Alas...



Yeah, where the hell is my androgynous Visual Kei?

1/10. Would not fap again.


In case implied sarcasm wasn't apparent enough, here's this...


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## JohnIce (Feb 10, 2015)

TedEH said:


> ..Why does nobody ever step back and say "hey, maybe there are people with less-than-equal views of the sexes who permeate every facet of out modern society", instead of immediately labeling anything involving a high male-to-female participation ratio, or individual manifestations of what's likely a deeper problem, as being immediately abhorrent.
> 
> An article that objectifies a few men would have been fine on it's own (and honestly, objectification in the right context doesn't have to be automatically evil)- but the subtext that paints metalheads as sexist jerks is ridiculous.



People don't?  I see a lot of that going on. The thing is that you can't jump straight to complex problems without first understanding the small problems. Sexism for beginners, sort of.

I definitely didn't feel painted as a sexist jerk by this article  What I saw was how absurd things get if you do something as basic as reversing the genders in an article, and how sad that is. Guys being personally offended whenever someone points out sexism is a big hurdle for progress, and it's a completely unwarranted one. Seeing as you clearly care about finding solutions to these problems, I'd recommend you start by realizing you're not being personally attacked whenever someone highlights sexism within a group that you're part of (be it men, metal heads, whatever).


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## Promit (Feb 10, 2015)

I'm all for equal opportunity objectification


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## S-O (Feb 10, 2015)

Is Jared Leto really that metal?


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## InfestedRabite (Feb 10, 2015)

S-O said:


> Is Jared Leto really that metal?



this is part of the joke hope this helps


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## TedEH (Feb 10, 2015)

JohnIce said:


> I'd recommend you start by realizing you're not being personally attacked whenever someone highlights sexism within a group that you're part of



Any time there's an argument against the method being used to highlight sexism, this is always the default response. I never said I was personally offended- but I think the approach being taken is wrong. 

All the wit in the world isn't going to change the fact that we're not even bothering to look for the source of the problem, while eagerly pointing fingers at whoever is convenient.



> And as for metal culture being made up of a bunch of sexist jerks, well... The Seven String Guitar Authority - SevenString.org



You've missed the point as much as the article has. It's incorrect to say that this is proof that sexism is tied into metal. All this demonstrates is that some men are sexist, and some of the men that are sexist also enjoy guitar. That's not a difficult stretch. That same thread would still exist if this was a forum about country music, or cars, or whatever else.


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## JohnIce (Feb 10, 2015)

TedEH said:


> Any time there's an argument against the method being used to highlight sexism, this is always the default response. I never said I was personally offended- but I think the approach being taken is wrong.
> 
> All the wit in the world isn't going to change the fact that we're not even bothering to look for the source of the problem, while eagerly pointing fingers at whoever is convenient.




Alright, you came across as offended is all. Anyhow I don't really get your argument (aside from the fact that you think the method is wrong). To me, it sounds like you're saying people should, for example, stop promoting recycling and look at the bigger environmental dangers instead. Instead of seeing it as one big issue that benefits from whatever little action each person takes to fight it.


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## Chokey Chicken (Feb 10, 2015)

TedEH said:


> I get that it's a joke, but I can't disagree more with this whole premise. Everything has a "sexism problem" these days. Is the whole eye-for-an-eye approach really appropriate here? I feel like nobody ever looks at the bigger picture. Does Revolver do a sexy metal-chick article because metal music and culture demands that they do so? Or is it more likely that they do so because it's well known that sexy women sell magazines, regardless of the subject? Does that make magazines sexist? Why does nobody ever step back and say "hey, maybe there are people with less-than-equal views of the sexes who permeate every facet of out modern society", instead of immediately labeling anything involving a high male-to-female participation ratio, or individual manifestations of what's likely a deeper problem, as being immediately abhorrent.
> 
> An article that objectifies a few men would have been fine on it's own (and honestly, objectification in the right context doesn't have to be automatically evil)- but the subtext that paints metalheads as sexist jerks is ridiculous.




I'm willing to bet that the irritation you're feeling is the same irritation I feel every time one of these articles pops up for real. Shit is infuriating, as is being fondled in a crowd.

Edit: It's sort of a "it's not nice when the rolls are reversed is it? Maybe you should stop" kind of thing. It has its place.


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## coreysMonster (Feb 10, 2015)

When I heard "cute boys in metal" my mind immediately jumped to Joe Duplantier. If I could have that man's looks (and voice) for a day...

Not particularly a fan of the website, though. Lots of nutty articles on Vice.


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## flint757 (Feb 10, 2015)

Did you see 'dat ass' on that bassist? Damn son!


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## Randyrhoads123 (Feb 10, 2015)

Jared Leto ain't so metal, but man, I'm 'mirin. I don't really see anything wrong with pointing out the hottest women/men in metal. Go ahead and put up a list of guys too, seriously!


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## coreysMonster (Feb 10, 2015)

Just for fun I googled "Devin Townsend sexy" and this was the first picture.







He's so good-looking he's making Anneke jealous. Definitely missing from the list.


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## Eliguy666 (Feb 10, 2015)

No mention of Eddie Pickard at all?


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## yingmin (Feb 10, 2015)

The problem's far from exclusive to metal, but it does seem to be most firmly entrenched there (or perhaps hip hop). Really, if you look at the origins of metal, it's not surprising, as most early metal is basically male power fantasy. One might think that country would be just as bad as metal in that regard, since there's plenty of tough-guy posturing, and the cowboy is a fundamentally male image, and in many ways a form of male power fantasy. However, it doesn't seem to suffer nearly as much as metal, and I can think of two possible explanations: on the one hand, there's a long and powerful tradition in country of tough, independent women that stood toe-to-toe with the men; on the other hand, it's much more acceptable for men to express genuine sentiment towards women, rather than just conquering them sexually.


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## Thorerges (Feb 10, 2015)

Pretty cool!


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## Necris (Feb 10, 2015)

0/10 Clothes are not revealing enough.


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## Slunk Dragon (Feb 10, 2015)

Not enough Kanye. 

11/10 - IGN.


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## Hollowway (Feb 10, 2015)

TedEH said:


> Does Revolver do a sexy metal-chick article because metal music and culture demands that they do so? Or is it more likely that they do so because it's well known that sexy women sell magazines, regardless of the subject?



Wait, what?  Isn't that the same thing? I think that selling lots magazines is, by definition, supplying the "demand." I think you might be missing the point of the article. The point is how ridiculous the article sounds just by switching the genders. That fact alone shows how male-centric it is. I don't think anyone is saying we're all a bunch of jerks. The same idea was the butt of the nurse jokes in Meet the Parents because the guy was a nurse, and nurses are usually women. It's just a classic fish-out-of-water satire.


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## flint757 (Feb 10, 2015)

Reading the OP title made me realize how derogatory a title 'Cutest girls in metal' really is (outside of the objectification). If they're going to objectify women the least they could do is address them as women. Probably a silly complaint, but it definitely looked weird reading 'cutest boys in metal'. I don't think of men when I hear the word boy. Perhaps the same applies for women when addressed as a girl...


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## Axayacatl (Feb 10, 2015)

kamello said:


>



 fleto qliao jajajaj


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## Eliguy666 (Feb 10, 2015)

*Possibly only gay person in this thread, vote still goes to Eddie Pickard* (Yeah, I know the article's parody, but let me have my crush)


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## DarkWolfXV (Feb 10, 2015)

flint757 said:


> Reading the OP title made me realize how derogatory a title 'Cutest girls in metal' really is





> Noun
> girl (plural girls)
> 
> 1. A young female human; (in contrast to boy), a female child or young adult.
> ...



There is nothing derogatory about that. If anything, that's a compliment since youth is sought after in our society. If anyone feels offended by this, they should grow a thicker skin. Getting offended by something as irrelevant is retarded. People really should get more significant things to care about. The article itself is funny, though.


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## Eliguy666 (Feb 10, 2015)

DarkWolfXV said:


> If anyone feels offended by this, they should grow a thicker skin. Getting offended by something as irrelevant is _retarded._



Word choice at the end was a bit unfortunate 
Anyways, I'd say that calling women "girls" is generally not offensive, but also has roots in thoroughly unfeminist cultural implications. Youth and conventional beauty are encouraged in women above all else, which leads to women striving to fulfill that image, hence being called "girls" regardless of age.
Men, however, are typically encouraged to be powerful, hypermasculine, and experienced, so calling a grown man a "boy" would often be seen as offensive.
I could see some women being offended at being labelled girls in light of the societal difference, and wouldn't refer to them that way after being corrected, but I wouldn't necessarily oppose them being called that in the first place, especially since many in these articles are in the oft-vague age range of 20-30.
As for me, I don't care what I'm called, I just want cuddles and somebody who can put up a fight in Mario Kart.


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## DarkWolfXV (Feb 10, 2015)

I know it's "unfortunate", but that was my intent. Even five years ago no one cared when you said something or someone is "retarded", now it seems to trigger people for some reason. Now every place is overrun with dumb political correctness, deciding that some words are "filthy" and some are better to use in their place, pointlessly sugarcoating instead of calling things by their name.

I get what you're saying. And for me, I don't care what I'm called either. Cuddles are welcome too . There are definitely far worse things that you can get called than "boy".


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## coreysMonster (Feb 11, 2015)

Eliguy666 said:


> As for me, I don't care what I'm called, I just want cuddles and somebody who can put up a fight in Mario Kart.


I had to laugh at this because my ex was so good at Mario Kart, I've never won a single game against her. 

Be careful what you wish for!


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## flint757 (Feb 11, 2015)

DarkWolfXV said:


> There is nothing derogatory about that. If anything, that's a compliment since youth is sought after in our society. If anyone feels offended by this, they should grow a thicker skin. Getting offended by something as irrelevant is retarded. People really should get more significant things to care about. The article itself is funny, though.





DarkWolfXV said:


> I know it's "unfortunate", but that was my intent. Even five years ago no one cared when you said something or someone is "retarded", now it seems to trigger people for some reason. Now every place is overrun with dumb political correctness, deciding that some words are "filthy" and some are better to use in their place, pointlessly sugarcoating instead of calling things by their name.
> 
> I get what you're saying. And for me, I don't care what I'm called either. Cuddles are welcome too . There are definitely far worse things that you can get called than "boy".



Did I say I was personally offended? No. Will this affect my life in some meaningful way? No. Did I tell everyone else to quit saying it? No.

If anyone needs to grow a 'thicker skin' perhaps it is you since you seem to take such offense to others having a differing opinion to you. You are free to be as non-PC as you want. You're just also welcome to the consequences of doing so in whatever setting that may be in.

[EDIT]

I think it is also important to acknowledge cultural differences here. In the US we call people boy and girl to typically address them as children, either because they are or because we are talking down to them. Calling someone a boy here is usually done in an attempt to discredit the other party (or to address a genuine child). 

I remember from my french class how it was derogatory in french to address the help as 'boy' as well, and for similar reasons.


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## Aion (Feb 11, 2015)

DarkWolfXV said:


> I know it's "unfortunate", but that was my intent. Even five years ago no one cared when you said something or someone is "retarded", now it seems to trigger people for some reason. Now every place is overrun with dumb political correctness, deciding that some words are "filthy" and some are better to use in their place, pointlessly sugarcoating instead of calling things by their name.



Maybe it triggers some people because they have people in their family or know people who have some kind of learning disorder, who have heard what was a medical term transform into an insult and a way to make other people feel like less of a human being. And while yes, it is clear by the context of what you're saying that you're not referring to something as being at all connected to, say, Down Syndrome, there is an assload of context that has become inexorably tied to certain words. So even if you use them in a way that is not meant to refer to a group of people, you are reminding them that a word used to describe them has been made into a way to call someone inferior and by logical extension their very existence makes them inferior.

I will add, that yes, there is political correctness that goes to far, that is (at least in this SSO member's humble opinion) a detriment to the progress they ostensibly stand for, but political correctness is not in and of itself a force of any kind of evil. I believe in free speech as much as the next overly-intellectualized atheist libertarian (not saying you are one, but I fit a certain "type," that exists on the internet), but some things run the terrible risk of making one appear to be a gaping asshole, when I am sure they are not one and do not wish to appear to be one. By no means, a criminal offense, but often times living lawfully and living ethically are not the same things.

FYI, this article is fantastic, it's been a while since I've seen a satirical metal article this funny.


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## Sephiroth952 (Feb 11, 2015)

No Russell Allan?


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## flint757 (Feb 11, 2015)

So should we compile a legit list of hottest guys in metal?


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## DredFul (Feb 11, 2015)

Everything I'm offended by is that Mark Holcomb and Matt Heafy aren't on that list.



Edit:


flint757 said:


> So should we compile a legit list of hottest guys in metal?



YES!


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## DarkWolfXV (Feb 11, 2015)

Aion said:


> Maybe it triggers some people because they have people in their family or know people who have some kind of learning disorder, who have heard what was a medical term transform into an insult and a way to make other people feel like less of a human being. And while yes, it is clear by the context of what you're saying that you're not referring to something as being at all connected to, say, Down Syndrome, there is an assload of context that has become inexorably tied to certain words. So even if you use them in a way that is not meant to refer to a group of people, you are reminding them that a word used to describe them has been made into a way to call someone inferior and by logical extension their very existence makes them inferior.



Most often the people that feel insulted do not have anyone like that in their family. The ones offended the most are the mentally healthy. Same with saying something is "gay", the people offended the most tend to be straight. Or the infamous "n" word, really strikes a nerve in _white_ people for some reason, while those who the supposed insult should concern simply ignore or just don't care. People feel entitled to 'protect' those people, as if those people could not fend for themselves, as if those people were worse. _That_ is insulting, isn't it?


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## Sephiroth952 (Feb 11, 2015)

DredFul said:


> YES!



I officially vote for Jonas Ekdahl (evergrey).


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## flint757 (Feb 11, 2015)

DarkWolfXV said:


> Most often the people that feel insulted do not have anyone like that in their family. The ones offended the most are the mentally healthy. Same with saying something is "gay", the people offended the most tend to be straight. Or the infamous "n" word, really strikes a nerve in _white_ people for some reason, while those who the supposed insult should concern simply ignore or just don't care. People feel entitled to 'protect' those people, as if those people could not fend for themselves, as if those people were worse. _That_ is insulting, isn't it?



It begs the question though, are any of those words so important to you that you feel a need to say them?

Call a black guy, in the US at least, the N word and you're probably going to get your ass beat unless you yourself are black (and using it as slang). 

My Aunt, who is a lesbian, had gotten on to me many times throughout my childhood about using the word gay as a derogatory term too. Most everyone in her circle felt similarly.


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## coreysMonster (Feb 11, 2015)

flint757 said:


> I think it is also important to acknowledge cultural differences here.


Fun fact: In German, the word for retarded in an insulting way, and the politically correct term for handicapped or disabled is the same. If you ever hear a German using "retarded" a lot when speaking English, it's more often than not because German culture simply doesn't have a problem with it.



flint757 said:


> So should we compile a legit list of hottest guys in metal?



Does Mike Patton count?


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## flint757 (Feb 11, 2015)

coreysMonster said:


> Does Mike Patton count?



I'll second.


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## Don Vito (Feb 11, 2015)

Pre-beard Lucas Mann will forever be the cutest metal boi to me <3


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## Aion (Feb 11, 2015)

DarkWolfXV said:


> Most often the people that feel insulted do not have anyone like that in their family. The ones offended the most are the mentally healthy. Same with saying something is "gay", the people offended the most tend to be straight. Or the infamous "n" word, really strikes a nerve in _white_ people for some reason, while those who the supposed insult should concern simply ignore or just don't care. People feel entitled to 'protect' those people, as if those people could not fend for themselves, as if those people were worse. _That_ is insulting, isn't it?



We all have different experiences, yours have obviously been different than mine. I can tell you that almost every single non-straight person (including sexualities other than homosexual) are offended when "gay," is used as an insult, even if they don't confront you or whoever says it when it gets used. Often times because they know that if they were to engage in a direct confrontation at the time of its usage than it only puts people on the defense and doesn't help to produce any real change. Just because someone does not confront you directly does not mean that they are not offended. I like to think I've avoided the white (cis hetero male, etc.) complex, but I might be wrong. In any case, protection of anyone is not my motivation. It is being part of a minority group myself and wanting to reciprocate the support I feel when people who do not belong to the same group that I do support my right to exist.

Speaking entirely pragmatically, there were other ways to make your point when you said, "retarded." Ways that would not have resulted in some people being offended. Offending people is not bad in and of itself. We are all too comfortable with a number of truly horrible things. But if you're trying to communicate an idea, why would you purposefully alienate a section of the people you're talking to for no reason other than to show that you are not afraid to use certain words. You could have communicated the same idea, more effectively, through different word choice. Knowing that this would have been the reaction to follow (you seem like smart fellow, so I'm assuming you were able to make a good guess as to what would follow), you have built your soap box for no conceivable purpose other than to shout from it. Perhaps you wanted the argument, or maybe just the attention, either way, I hope in the future that you will think better of such transparent petulance and focus on making the most effective point to your argument rather than setting up the argument you most wish to have. The smart man wins the argument, but the wise one gets what he wants while avoiding the ruckus altogether.


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## JohnIce (Feb 11, 2015)

DarkWolfXV said:


> Most often the people that feel insulted do not have anyone like that in their family. The ones offended the most are the mentally healthy. Same with saying something is "gay", the people offended the most tend to be straight. Or the infamous "n" word, really strikes a nerve in _white_ people for some reason, while those who the supposed insult should concern simply ignore or just don't care. People feel entitled to 'protect' those people, as if those people could not fend for themselves, as if those people were worse. _That_ is insulting, isn't it?



Or maybe the only ones you talk about this with are white and straight so the only ones calling you out are by default white and straight? 

Either that or you and I clearly hang out with different minorities. I do know one guy who doesn't mind being called the n-word, because he's adopted, raised by white middle-class parents in a white middle-class neighborhood and was the only black kid through all his school years making him just as culturally white middle-class as anyone else. He's the kind of black guy people refer to when they say "Hey, one of my best friends is black, so clearly I'm not racist!". The people I know who actually identify with a minority group (he doesn't), will be A LOT more offended than any white person, believe me.

As for gay people, yeah they can be hard to offend, cause they've heard all you can throw at them a million times already. But what about all the people who haven't taken the step to being openly gay? The kind that go around being suicidal because they think society thinks they're freaks against nature? Yeah they're probably offended.

My view on being PC is that it takes much less effort for me to be PC than it does for someone else to not be offended when I insult their entire existence from a place higher up in the societal food chain.


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## lucasreis (Feb 11, 2015)

This article is awesome... had a good laugh, and realized how depressing the actual "cutest girls in metal" articles are.


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## Rev2010 (Feb 11, 2015)

"Male drummers are rare in metal"

"Speaking of nu-metal, everyone&#8217;s favorite *Babymetal-inspired* gimmick band, Slipknot (whose devilish stage show features *seven guys* wearing masks)"

 Huh???


Rev.


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## tedtan (Feb 11, 2015)

yingmin said:


> One might think that country would be just as bad as metal in that regard, since there's plenty of tough-guy posturing, and the cowboy is a fundamentally male image, and in many ways a form of male power fantasy. However, it doesn't seem to suffer nearly as much as metal, and I can think of two possible explanations: on the one hand, there's a long and powerful tradition in country of tough, independent women that stood toe-to-toe with the men; on the other hand, it's much more acceptable for men to express genuine sentiment towards women, rather than just conquering them sexually.



You left off the fact that since the 1980s (roughly the Garth Brooks era onward), country music has been targeted towards women as the primary purchasers. The whole "new country" thing was a strategic shift to get women who grew up listening to rock but wanted something more mature now that they're adults into country music. And it worked, hence the "pop music with distorted guitars and a fake southern accents" music that passes for country music these days.


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## Chokey Chicken (Feb 11, 2015)

I'm bisexual, Hispanic and female. I typically don't like people using "gay" as an insult, "spic" or "beaner" in any context, and I certainly don't feel entirely comfortable in a lot of situations due to sexual harassment that a lot of people don't think is sexual harassment. The real articles like this do in fact offend me, as they try to "shine lights on hard working female artists" but somehow boil it down to further sexualization and the like.


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## stevexc (Feb 11, 2015)

Rev2010 said:


> "Male drummers are rare in metal"
> 
> "Speaking of nu-metal, everyones favorite *Babymetal-inspired* gimmick band, Slipknot (whose devilish stage show features *seven guys* wearing masks)"
> 
> ...



whoosh

;D


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## Necris (Feb 11, 2015)

Chokey Chicken said:


> The real articles like this do in fact offend me, as they try to "shine lights on hard working female artists" but somehow boil it down to further sexualization and the like.



Those articles are usually a line or two confirming that said artist is in fact female and does indeed play an instrument and a the remainder boils down to:


Metal Magazine said:


> "...and just imagine what she's like in bed; sure she and her band released an album last week and we're a music magazine so we could probably cover that but more importantly SEX, THINK ABOUT THE SEX YOU COULD BE HAVING WITH HER, ARE YOU THINKING ABOUT IT!? ENOUGH WORDS, PICTURES! LOOK AT HER, WE THREW OUT THE PICTURES WITH TOO MUCH COVERED SKIN TO BETTER REVEAL HER TALENT! We're so progressive for acknowledging a woman who plays metal!"


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## Andromalia (Feb 11, 2015)

No Manowar pictures.

FAIL.

More seriously, I never got the metal mysoginy thing. Audiences are pretty mixed, the guys want to get girls... like everyplace else, and the girls want to get guys too.

Then I'm sure some people would take Steel Panther lyrics at 1st degree. 
Metalheads are fine with a band parodying just that and like it, that's more open minded than a lot of other groups of interest.

And don't believe for a moment only women are subject to the appearance dogmas from marketing. You'll never make it if you're obese, over 30 or suffer from physical difformities.


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## S-O (Feb 11, 2015)

InfestedRabite said:


> this is part of the joke hope this helps



The rest of the entries could fit into metal, and were more humorous. Leto just didn't make sense. I need logic in my misandry!


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## JohnIce (Feb 11, 2015)

Andromalia said:


> No Manowar pictures.
> 
> FAIL.
> 
> ...



Song of the year 2015:





Album of the year 2015:





Best metal performance 2015:







Grammys aside, the idea that men and women get into playing music to attract the opposite sex? No. Just no. For women probably less so than men, as showing your tits has been proven far easier and more effective for that than learning to play a musical instrument and working all your life to have a career in one of the most difficult businesses in the world, i.e. music. So no.

Are metal heads open minded? Sure! Are there millions of metal heads in the world? Also yes. Are some of them not very open minded? Yeah, a couple of those millions aren't very open minded. So can you generalize at all about the open mindedness of metal heads? No.


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## Chokey Chicken (Feb 11, 2015)

Andromalia said:


> No Manowar pictures.
> 
> FAIL.
> 
> ...



I'll make sure to tell the next guy who cops a feel at a show just how much I appreciate his open-mindedness. Or that because some chick somewhere is lusting after some guy that gives everyone the right to simmer our collective worth down to how pretty we are. 

Go ahead and look at a lot of big names. A great many of the males aren't physically attractive because it's not a prerequisite. (Though it helps I'm sure.) It's not exclusive to metal but with the amount of "jokes" people make for me to put down the guitar and get in the kitchen, it's a big offender and thus a realistic place to start.


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## Eliguy666 (Feb 11, 2015)

I'd honestly say it's music in general that's f*cked up in that way. Still doesn't make it acceptable, of course, but it needs to be addressed at a wider level the way we've seen people address sexism/homophobia/transphobia in movies and comics.
People need to start liking Abnormality because they're a well produced slam band, not because the vocalist's got tits.
I fear that's the reason that Arch Enemy made their current vocalist choice, they wanted to continue with the "novelty"  of having a female lead instead of finding a vocalist that was a good match for the band.
It's especially difficult for female artists because they're taught again and again that any female idol they have is only good for their body and not the fact that they're in one of the most competitive fields ever.
-A 5'6" pan/genderqueer person who's tired of music sexism.


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## Chokey Chicken (Feb 11, 2015)

You're right in saying it's music in general. Metal is sort of unique though in that it's not "strange" or as oftenly commented on if a woman wants to start a pop group or play an acoustic. Beauty is still a huge factor but people instantly start ragging on women if they're into heavier stuff. I've been told plenty that I'm just "trying" to be quirky and cool. You don't get that as much in tamer genres.


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## Discoqueen (Feb 11, 2015)

This thread is as not at all what I as expecting.


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## JohnIce (Feb 11, 2015)

Chokey Chicken said:


> You're right in saying it's music in general. Metal is sort of unique though in that it's not "strange" or as oftenly commented on if a woman wants to start a pop group or play an acoustic. Beauty is still a huge factor but people instantly start ragging on women if they're into heavier stuff. I've been told plenty that I'm just "trying" to be quirky and cool. You don't get that as much in tamer genres.



I think in most genres of music, and in movies and sports etc., most people attract fans mostly of their own gender. Exceptions being boy bands and bieber of the month etc. But even someone like Britney or Beyoncé will have mostly female fans. There's obvious reasons for that of course.

The weird thing about metal though is that, compared to other genres, even women are expected to cater to _male_ fans first and foremost, and get a lot of shit when singing about stuff guys can't relate to. No-one is offended when someone like Carrie Underwood sings about being a girl, but if Maria Brink or Lzzy Hale does it, then bring on the butthurt from male metal fans.

So while a lot of male metal fans will say "Sure, I love that more women are getting into metal!" they're also quick to say "Wait a minute, I meant metal as in the way men make metal, what's all this singing about banging dudes? Is she gay or something? I want my money back!" Then proceed to vent their anger on internet forums, of course. The thread we had for In This Moment a while back was pretty much this, and only this.


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## troyguitar (Feb 11, 2015)

For whatever reason, classical seems to be the only form of music that women in general ever really try hard to be awesome at. (pop singing being the only exception)

It's not just metal where great female musicians are a novelty, it's all non-classical music. (again, pop singing being the only exception)

How many women are out there playing like Steve Vai? Almost none. There's Jennifer Batten and... maybe a handful of others across the whole world. Compare that to men, there are thousands of dudes out there shredding their asses off trying to be the best players they can be.


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## lemeker (Feb 11, 2015)

Chokey Chicken said:


> Beauty is still a huge factor but people instantly start ragging on women if they're into heavier stuff. I've been told plenty that I'm just "trying" to be quirky and cool. You don't get that as much in tamer genres.





I don't want to hijack your conversation, but reading this made me shake my head. This is a shame. 

Regardless of gender, genre etc, one should not be knocked for pursing a dream or a hobby. If its what you love to do...........


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## Grief (Feb 11, 2015)

My view is that women are not being marginalized in metal music and I suspect that they very happily use their sexuality to gain advantage in ways that men cannot. Does Maria Brink get a leg up and more press coverage because she is attractive? Of course as that sells magazines to the (i'm guess predominantly teenage and male) readership. Does that mean it's unfair that Amon Amarth f/ex have to rely on their talent as they are not hunky supermodels? Well not really as there may be other part of audience for them.

But is that fundamentally sexist? Does Kim's article even make any sense as at least half of the pictures in it are from photoshoots and plenty of the guys are clearly working out and taking care of their appearance. I would posit that it's a lot more difficult for a guy to work out to live up to the Misfits guy ideal than it is for a girl to trowel on lots of make up and wear little clothing like Maria Brink.

White-knighting and self-flagellation because women are exploiting their own sexuality and appearance to be successful in their careers seems a bit silly to me.


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## Chokey Chicken (Feb 11, 2015)

JohnIce said:


> I think in most genres of music, and in movies and sports etc., most people attract fans mostly of their own gender. Exceptions being boy bands and bieber of the month etc. But even someone like Britney or Beyoncé will have mostly female fans. There's obvious reasons for that of course.
> 
> The weird thing about metal though is that, compared to other genres, even women are expected to cater to _male_ fans first and foremost, and get a lot of shit when singing about stuff guys can't relate to. No-one is offended when someone like Carrie Underwood sings about being a girl, but if Maria Brink or Lzzy Hale does it, then bring on the butthurt from male metal fans.
> 
> So while a lot of male metal fans will say "Sure, I love that more women are getting into metal!" they're also quick to say "Wait a minute, I meant metal as in the way men make metal, what's all this singing about banging dudes? Is she gay or something? I want my money back!" Then proceed to vent their anger on internet forums, of course. The thread we had for In This Moment a while back was pretty much this, and only this.



You make very valid points! Still, males can pick up any instrument (save for the weird shit like hurdy gurdies or however it's spelled) without being picked on. One of the biggest hurdles to overcome while learning guitar was the constant teasing. Everything you said is pretty much right though.


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## Grief (Feb 11, 2015)

troyguitar said:


> How many women are out there playing like Steve Vai? Almost none. There's Jennifer Batten and... maybe a handful of others across the whole world. Compare that to men, there are thousands of dudes out there shredding their asses off trying to be the best players they can be.



That might be the case but it doesn't give any clue as to why that might be. There's no suggestion that there's swathes of fantastic female guitarists being shunned in favor of men. Could it be that it is just a pursuit that more men happen to be interested in?


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## troyguitar (Feb 11, 2015)

Grief said:


> I suspect that they very happily use their sexuality to gain advantage in ways that men cannot.





If I could turn myself into a decent looking woman overnight I would do it - and you bet your ass I'd wear revealing outfits on stage and no wedding ring. It's almost guaranteed success in metal as long as you have the equivalent of a couple year's lessons in playing ability. 

Hot chick + decent band = you're playing all the big festivals in europe at a minimum. Zero talent necessary.


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## Chokey Chicken (Feb 11, 2015)

troyguitar said:


> For whatever reason, classical seems to be the only form of music that women in general ever really try hard to be awesome at. (pop singing being the only exception)
> 
> It's not just metal where great female musicians are a novelty, it's all non-classical music. (again, pop singing being the only exception)
> 
> How many women are out there playing like Steve Vai? Almost none. There's Jennifer Batten and... maybe a handful of others across the whole world. Compare that to men, there are thousands of dudes out there shredding their asses off trying to be the best players they can be.



The ....? There are lots of shreddy female guitarists. It's still sort of uncommon for females to play the genre so there are few if any who get huge recognition, but there are plenty of girls on YouTube who can shred. Guitarists are a dime a dozen. There are plenty, male and female, that can play circles around big names that you'll never know.


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## Chokey Chicken (Feb 11, 2015)

troyguitar said:


> If I could turn myself into a decent looking woman overnight I would do it - and you bet your ass I'd wear revealing outfits on stage and no wedding ring. It's almost guaranteed success in metal as long as you have the equivalent of a couple year's lessons in playing ability.
> 
> Hot chick + decent band = you're playing all the big festivals in europe at a minimum. Zero talent necessary.



Untrue. Perhaps it's because I have perspective. Sexual assault is hardly fun. The sexism that fuels your words is almost physically painful.


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## troyguitar (Feb 11, 2015)

Chokey Chicken said:


> The ....? There are lots of shreddy female guitarists. It's still sort of uncommon for females to play the genre so there are few if any who get huge recognition, but there are plenty of girls on YouTube who can shred. Guitarists are a dime a dozen. There are plenty, male and female, that can play circles around big names that you'll never know.



That's either false or I don't know how to youtube. 

The "great female guitarists" on there are generally mediocre a la "Commander In Chief" and that chick who played with Michael Angelo who cannot do vibrato to save her life. 

There is no woman playing on the level of a Shawn Lane, Jason Becker, Guthrie Govan, Jason Becker, Rusty Cooley, Yngwie Malmsteen, etc. outside of the classical world.


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## troyguitar (Feb 11, 2015)

Chokey Chicken said:


> Untrue. Perhaps it's because I have perspective. Sexual assault is hardly fun. The sexism that fuels your words is almost physically painful.



Explain Orianthi playing with Steve Vai, she's not that good - but she does LOOK great!


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## troyguitar (Feb 11, 2015)

Chokey Chicken said:


> Untrue. Perhaps it's because I have perspective. Sexual assault is hardly fun. The sexism that fuels your words is almost physically painful.



Perhaps you DO NOT have perspective. 

Try being ignored your whole life because you're just another white dude who's decent at some stuff. Your view is as one-sided as mine.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Feb 11, 2015)

JohnIce said:


> So while a lot of male metal fans will say "Sure, I love that more women are getting into metal!" they're also quick to say "Wait a minute, I meant metal as in the way men make metal, what's all this singing about banging dudes? Is she gay or something? I want my money back!" Then proceed to vent their anger on internet forums, of course. The thread we had for In This Moment a while back was pretty much this, and only this.



Lol. I have a female friend on my Facebook friends list whom can't stand In This Moment because the singer "wants to be a pop idol". Don't listen to them, so I'm not really sure what she means, nor do I care what In This Moment do, but I thought it was kinda funny that you tried portraying that as male metalheads.


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## Dayn (Feb 11, 2015)

Sure is a lot of mansplaining going on here...


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## Eliguy666 (Feb 11, 2015)

troyguitar said:


> Perhaps you DO NOT have perspective.
> 
> Try being ignored your whole life because you're just another white dude who's decent at some stuff. Your view is as one-sided as mine.



Sorry to have to be blunt, but that's just nonsense. Your entire argument is pretty much "It must be great to be objectified by everyone you're trying to show your talent to."
Women in media are NOT lucky to be fetishized, or diminished, and saying that they are is patently ridiculous.
The reason that prominent women in music are so rare is that the public tears them down every f*cking chance there is. Maria Anna Mozart had every sign of being a musical genius, but her career was torn down because, in society, women are called to follow their lovers' passions, not their own.
The world tells men to follow their dreams, and women to follow men. Women in politics, business, activism, and ESPECIALLY art are trivialized.


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## troyguitar (Feb 11, 2015)

Eliguy666 said:


> Sorry to have to be blunt, but that's just nonsense. Your entire argument is pretty much "It must be great to be objectified by everyone you're trying to show your talent to."



More like: It must be great to be able to succeed with less talent than men.


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## Grief (Feb 11, 2015)

troyguitar said:


> If I could turn myself into a decent looking woman overnight I would do it - and you bet your ass I'd wear revealing outfits on stage and no wedding ring. It's almost guaranteed success in metal as long as you have the equivalent of a couple year's lessons in playing ability.
> 
> Hot chick + decent band = you're playing all the big festivals in europe at a minimum. Zero talent necessary.



Hold on, isn't that exactly what the article is about - the over-representation of dolled-up sexualised women in metal. And that their talent is covered secondarily, if at all.

I didn't say no talent and neither did Kim.


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## Grief (Feb 11, 2015)

troyguitar said:


> The world tells men to follow their dreams, and women to follow men. Women in politics, business, activism, and ESPECIALLY art are trivialized.



Not too sure how things are where you are, but certainly can say in my experience women have advantage over men in area of sales, which is very lucrative area of business.

And in fact in UK I personally know of quite a few examples of women who have what is maybe feminist dream. They have studied and succeeded, got top jobs, had terrific difficulty finding a male partner of equal standing, are trapped in high-stressed senior jobs in niche industries demanding long hours and find themselves in their mid-30s with biological clock ticking and frustrated. 

Most powerful politician in Europe is a woman, next US pres may well be too. Are you sure your info reflects today's situation? Do you have any
stats or examples for any of the stuff quoted above?


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## Discoqueen (Feb 11, 2015)

Daniel of Pain of Salvation (used to be metal, anyhow!)


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## Chokey Chicken (Feb 11, 2015)

troyguitar said:


> More like: It must be great to be able to succeed with less talent than men.



If it were in fact "that easy" to get ahead, every hot female musician would be famous. You're pretty much disgusting if you legitimately think it's easier for women for the reasons given. I'm just going to abandon this thread because they always go nowhere.


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## Necris (Feb 11, 2015)

Grief said:


> Are you sure your info reflects today's situation? Do you have any
> stats or examples for any of the stuff quoted above?



Colleen McCullough: we'll celebrate a woman for anything, as long as it's not her talent | Rebecca Shaw | Comment is free | The Guardian

Here's an example of a woman who has achieved quite a bit in her life (being a Neuroscientist, a best selling author, recipient of the order of Australia etc) and in her obituary published by a paper those achievements were downplayed and the focus turned instead to her looks and her ability to attract men.


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## JohnIce (Feb 11, 2015)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Lol. I have a female friend on my Facebook friends list whom can't stand In This Moment because the singer "wants to be a pop idol". Don't listen to them, so I'm not really sure what she means, nor do I care what In This Moment do, but I thought it was kinda funny that you tried portraying that as male metalheads.



How is that relevant in any way to what I said?  There are plenty of reasons anybody could have for not liking In This Moment just like with any other band, poppy sounding songs and pretentious showmanship for example, but that's not the reasons I'm talking about. I'm talking only about _sexist_ reasons for disliking In This Moment. The difference is a big one, and integral to _this_ discussion. I don't see how your friend comes across as a sexist for saying that stuff, do you?

Regardless, there's over 3,5 billion women in the world. What your one female friend thinks doesn't really hold any weight in a discussion like this. It's also worth remembering that there are a LOT of women who know nothing about gender equality and have no ambitions to learn about it. Women are not experts on sexism by default. So yes, I was portraying male metalheads because that's the far more common perpetrator, but that doesn't mean there are no women who agree with those guys, of course there are.


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## Grief (Feb 11, 2015)

^ a nearly 3yr old obit from Australia is hardly evidence of worldwide oppression of women. If we're throwing singular examples around it's massively trumped by Angela Merkel's Chancellorship of Germany.

If we're talking of Australia isn't richest most powerful Australian a female mining tycoon?


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## Captain Butterscotch (Feb 11, 2015)

Chokey Chicken said:


> If it were in fact "that easy" to get ahead, every hot female musician would be famous. You're pretty much disgusting if you legitimately think it's easier for women for the reasons given. I'm just going to abandon this thread because they always go nowhere.



or because you've already run out of ultra dramatic conclusions to jump to....


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## UnattendedGolfcart (Feb 11, 2015)

Why can't we all just sexualize everybody equally? 

I remember reading an interview with a woman, I can't remember who it was, it MIGHT have been the new Arch Enemy vocalist, but this woman interviewer was trying to be 'empowering' by saying to her "It must be great being a woman in metal!" and she kept saying "woman in metal" a lot.

Then the woman being interviewed said something to the extent of "You're not being empowering by constantly pointing out that I'm a 'woman in metal', I'm a woman who likes metal, if you wanted to get past the issue you'd stop bringing it up so much and just let me do my thing"

The arguments going on here seem to have some merit to them, but overall they depress me because everyone seems to be assuming things about each other so they can feel good about themselves by 'defeating' an argument that they basically made up/exaggerated about the person they're arguing.

This article is funny and it totally points out how women are sexualized in this case metal, and I think more importantly, aren't taken seriously because they're sexualized. You can find somebody sexy and still admire them but our culture really doesn't seem to want to do that.

I think there should be "Hottest Women" and "Hottest Men" in everything for true quality pls


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## Discoqueen (Feb 11, 2015)

I think when people bring up these individaual cases where women have risen to a place of power... We forget that it is an exception, and not a rule. You can name a woman who is a tycoon, or who is a leader of a party or country... But the rest are men, no? And I've not made the effort to find statistics, but if one looked at the United States Congress, or House of Representatives, or a list of the wealthiest people in the world, the amount of women on that list will be less than that of men.


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## troyguitar (Feb 11, 2015)

Chokey Chicken said:


> If it were in fact "that easy" to get ahead, every hot female musician would be famous. You're pretty much disgusting if you legitimately think it's easier for women for the reasons given. I'm just going to abandon this thread because they always go nowhere.



What percentage of hot women are in "famous" metal bands compared to hot women who are in "not famous" metal bands?

What percentage of the rest of the population are in "famous" metal bands compared to "not famous" metal bands?

Do you honestly believe that there are tons of hot women out there in bands that no one has ever heard of? Put a hot chick in front of any metal band and there will be threads about them up on EVERY metal forum in a matter of days. Arch Enemy put a hot chick out front of them and they BLEW UP. That's just how it is in this world.

Facts are not sexist.


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## Necris (Feb 11, 2015)

Grief said:


> ^ a nearly 3yr old obit from Australia is hardly evidence of worldwide oppression of women.


That link was meant to offer a single example in support of Troys claim that women are trivialized, surely that 3 year old obituary (why is the age relevant?) backs up a claim that a womans abilities are trivialized in favor of promoting her as a sex object. I didn't claim it was an example of global oppression, which, until this post I hadn't assumed you were looking for. If I'd known you were looking for oppression female genital mutilation, women in the middle east among other things would have been the direction I went in.

That women are trivialized in other areas of society shouldn't be too difficult to believe considering we're both posting in a thread about an article that seems to have been made as a response to female musicians constantly being trivialized.


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## Chokey Chicken (Feb 11, 2015)

troyguitar said:


> What percentage of hot women are in "famous" metal bands compared to hot women who are in "not famous" metal bands?
> 
> What percentage of the rest of the population are in "famous" metal bands compared to "not famous" metal bands?
> 
> ...



The Best Selling Heavy Metal Albums of All Time in the U.S.

Look at all those female artists!


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## Dayn (Feb 11, 2015)

troyguitar said:


> What percentage of hot women are in "famous" metal bands compared to hot women who are in "not famous" metal bands?
> 
> What percentage of the rest of the population are in "famous" metal bands compared to "not famous" metal bands?
> 
> ...


...The fact that happens is due to sexism and objectifying women.

Go take your fedora elsewhere.


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## JohnIce (Feb 11, 2015)

troyguitar said:


> What percentage of hot women are in "famous" metal bands compared to hot women who are in "not famous" metal bands?
> 
> What percentage of the rest of the population are in "famous" metal bands compared to "not famous" metal bands?
> 
> ...



Arch Enemy are hardly the biggest metal band in the world though... they blew up but not disproportionately to the quality of their records and live shows, and the hype that all swedish melodeath bands had at that time. Mike Amott has written a boatload of great riffs that are recognizable and catchy, right up there with the other bands that have had equal or greater success than them (the entire Gothenburg scene and more). I don't see how In Flames or At the Gates or Dark Tranquility etc. are more deserving of their fame than Arch Enemy. They're all simply good bands that were doing something new and made tons of fans because of it. I've also seen AE live on various festivals and they are a stellar live act, too. Go to any typical metal festival and they will probably be a more enjoyable band than a lot of the others. Crediting all their success to the gender of the singer seems ridiculous to me. Angela Gossow is a very good frontperson and definitely deserves some credit, but hardly for just being hot. 

I also think it's weird when you say hot women have an advantage over all the average-looking dudes... well, how often do you see an average looking _woman_ then having any success in this genre? I can't really think of any off the top of my head, quite honestly. For every pretty shredder girl who blows up on guitar forums (mostly people saying she's only famous cause she's hot, eventually making her famous that way), there's at least 500 bands of average looking dudes who take the rest of the spotlight anyway. The fact that "girl next door" is even an expression, meant to describe celebrity women that look like someone you actually might meet in real life, that says a lot of how far that shit's gone.

Also, I listen to Orianthi. I like her music. I also like Slash, and Mark Knopfler, and Santana. They're only decent guitarists but they make great music that I enjoy. Tits have nothing to do with it, I'm sorry.


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## Korbain (Feb 12, 2015)

lol ^^ dear god!


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## AxeHappy (Feb 12, 2015)

I'm upset by this article because I was expecting it to be real. 

And then I was going to be able to say, "But no member's of DragonForce!?" And post the memes with Herman and ZP as a L'oreal commercial. Bah.


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## troyguitar (Feb 12, 2015)

Chokey Chicken said:


> The Best Selling Heavy Metal Albums of All Time in the U.S.
> 
> Look at all those female artists!



There's a reason I put "famous" in quotes like that. There haven't been many famous metal bands outside of sabbath and metallica, so it's a tiny pool from which to draw unless you expand "famous" to mean more like "bands that are talked about by more than just their family and friends" - that is the only way to get a bigger sample.

but I'm just some sexist asshole for acknowledging that women are treated differently - and that differently is NOT ALWAYS WORSE.


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## troyguitar (Feb 12, 2015)

JohnIce said:


> Also, I listen to Orianthi. I like her music. I also like Slash, and Mark Knopfler, and Santana. They're only decent guitarists but they make great music that I enjoy. Tits have nothing to do with it, I'm sorry.



Do you honestly believe that Orianthi would have been given all the same opportunities if she was any random white dude from say New York?


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## Spaced Out Ace (Feb 12, 2015)

troyguitar said:


> Do you honestly believe that Orianthi would have been given all the same opportunities if she was any random white dude from say New York?



If she was that "random white dude from New York", she'd have to be jacked. Moreso than even Hulk Hogan and Ultimate Warrior. And look like Rambo with a guitar.


And yes, I'm talking about Kane Roberts.


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## Mprinsje (Feb 12, 2015)

This isn't a very nice thread.


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## Andromalia (Feb 12, 2015)

JohnIce said:


>


Those are just not honest. For starters I have no clue who the first two are. The third one I could pickup a Cher photo to argue grandmothers have a future in rocknroll marketing.



> Grammys aside, the idea that men and women get into playing music to attract the opposite sex?


What ? Where did I talk about this ? I was referring to the audience. Which usually is every metalhead in attendance barring the 3-7 people on the stage, which can be discounted for statistical reasons.



> Are metal heads open minded? Sure! Are there millions of metal heads in the world? Also yes. Are some of them not very open minded? Yeah, a couple of those millions aren't very open minded. So can you generalize at all about the open mindedness of metal heads? No.


Sophism doesn't work but shows user has an agenda, so I'll leave you there on this subject.



> It's not exclusive to metal but with the amount of "jokes" people make for me to put down the guitar and get in the kitchen


Uh, yeah, that's the point: it has nothing to do with metal so I don't see what it has to do with this discussion.



> Still, males can pick up any instrument (save for the weird shit like hurdy gurdies or however it's spelled) without being picked on.


Become a drummer and marry me.


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## flint757 (Feb 12, 2015)

I had no idea what a hurdy gurdy was, but all the youtube vids of it make me want to buy one.


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## DarkWolfXV (Feb 12, 2015)

troyguitar said:


> For whatever reason, classical seems to be the only form of music that women in general ever really try hard to be awesome at. (pop singing being the only exception)
> 
> It's not just metal where great female musicians are a novelty, it's all non-classical music. (again, pop singing being the only exception)
> 
> How many women are out there playing like Steve Vai? Almost none. There's Jennifer Batten and... maybe a handful of others across the whole world. Compare that to men, there are thousands of dudes out there shredding their asses off trying to be the best players they can be.



EXACTLY THIS + everything else you said. I agree with you 100%. People just hate facing the truth because often it's uncomfortable. Having tits somehow makes you immune to criticism because express a constructive opinion that's negative and you'll get flayed alive by an army of white knights. Most female musicians that are not pop vocalists or classical musicians (just like you said) are just not as good as men, and that's a fact.



Dayn said:


> ...The fact that happens is due to sexism and objectifying women.
> 
> Go take your fedora elsewhere.



Yeah, run out of arguments so you might as well call someone autistic to discredit them. That always works.


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## flint757 (Feb 12, 2015)

DarkWolfXV said:


> EXACTLY THIS + everything else you said. I agree with you 100%. People just hate facing the truth because often it's uncomfortable. Having tits somehow makes you immune to criticism because express a constructive opinion that's negative and you'll get flayed alive by an army of white knights. Most female musicians that are not pop vocalists or classical musicians (just like you said) are just not as good as men, and that's a fact.



Not as good as men, ay? Fact, ay? 

That isn't telling at all...


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## chassless (Feb 12, 2015)

what? that article turned out to be satire? by reading the thread title i thought it was a serious one. i'm pretty disappointed. i believe the whole issue has been addressed in a wrong way. i think without the header attempting to explain the goal behind the article and the entire gender-reverse technique are detrimental to its own purpose. it passes off as a pretty desperate attempt at proving a point. were it simply, very simply, a normal article that's listing the cutest boys in metal, without trying to prove a point, it would have helped the cause much better.


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## DarkWolfXV (Feb 12, 2015)

flint757 said:


> Not as good as men, ay? Fact, ay?
> 
> That isn't telling at all...



Objectively, very little women can play like Muhammed Suicmez, Steve Vai or Yngwie Malmsteen. 



troyguitar said:


> How many women are out there playing like Steve Vai? Almost none. There's Jennifer Batten and... maybe a handful of others across the whole world. Compare that to men, there are thousands of dudes out there shredding their asses off trying to be the best players they can be.



This is what I mean.


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## Zalbu (Feb 12, 2015)

DarkWolfXV said:


> People just hate facing the truth





> Having tits somehow makes you immune to criticism





> white knights





> not as good as men, and that's a fact.









Anyways, back on topic. 
Lexxi Foxx and Satchel from Steel Panther, anybody?


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## Mprinsje (Feb 12, 2015)

DarkWolfXV said:


> Objectively, very little women can play like Muhammed Suicmez, Steve Vai or Yngwie Malmsteen.
> 
> 
> 
> This is what I mean.



That's not because women can't play well, it's because there's less women playing guitar then there's men, the pool of people growing to be very good being smaller. Just a matter of numbers


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## BlackMastodon (Feb 12, 2015)

I thought the article was great and I had a laugh.

I regret reading the thread because it went pretty much how I expected:
A couple people disagree with the article and take their view waaaay further than anyone intended or cared for them to and just keep on digging deeper.

Also, DarkWolf you gotta remember that NA is pretty different to Poland or the rest of EU in terms of PC and what's acceptable. I can literally count the number of visible minorities on one hand when I spent a month in Poland a few years back for vacation, and that was in one of the big tourist cities (Gdansk), so you saying that black people aren't offended when called the n word has very little weight. Nothing personal and I'm not saying you're 100% wrong on that end, but culturally it's very different there.

As for this whole sexism argument it's pretty goddamn mind blowing the way a few of you guys think.


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## Grief (Feb 12, 2015)

For me most amusing notions in this thread are that average (aka ugly) women are under-represented and that it is an idea to look at a female guitarist but disregard her appearance (reminds a bit of Bill Clinton's not inhaling). 

I come from the UK which I am starting to think is some post-feminist utopia. 
The 2 extreme/underground metal mags are Terrorizer (owned by a transwoman an has had at least 2 female editors) and Zero Tolerance (editor is a woman).

I was first taught guitar over 25yrs ago by a woman who wrote the school textbook at that time on how to play guitar.

Asking why there are sexualized women in magazines aimed at adolescent men seems a very obvious question with obvious answer. But should male feminists be throwing clothes at them or suppressing impure thoughts while listening to their music? - I don't think so. In post-feminist world it is ok for woman to have talent _and_ sexuality. And possible for woman to have her own brain and make her own decisions about how to present herself.

We haven't got anywhere near exploring why there are less female participants in metal subculture. But answer certainly doesn't have to be sexism - maybe there just aren't that many successful female metal musicians in the same way there aren't that many fans. Maybe it just happens to appeal to men more.


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 12, 2015)

How do we know other magazines aren't doing this same thing? It would be easier to spread a message through individual demographics than everyone at once. I figured that's why most religions say more or less the same stuff with minor cultural tweaks and such... 

And whoa to everything DarkWolf said...


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## OmegaSlayer (Feb 12, 2015)

If I must be honest, there's no single girl playing metal that I really found really attractive.
The same Nita, whom I joke about often, is the girl with which I would have casual sex after a night at the pub, but would never try to seduce.
I like to joke on sex pretending I'm a rabid horny dog, I have fun that way, but again I didn't found a girl in metal that is super duper hot.

That said, if metal mistreats woman, what does rap do?


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## Necris (Feb 12, 2015)

^ I can't help but feel you're maneuvering towards the old "My neigbor beats his wife but at least he's not like my other neighbor who beats his wife_, _his kids _and _his dog." style of argument. 

Does the fact that there is almost always something worse to be found make something undesirable suddenly okay? Does anyone here actually believe that?


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## Louis Cypher (Feb 12, 2015)

DarkWolfXV said:


> Objectively, very little women can play like Muhammed Suicmez, Steve Vai or Yngwie Malmsteen.



I can't be the only one read this and laughed!! Very little women CAN play like Suicmez, Vai or Malmsteen..... long as they are tiny women so small you can put them in your pocket! LOL! 

On a serious note, same old same old from some on here when it comes to discussing women in metal/music.... some really wonder why women mostly steer clear of guitar playing and metal, this thread and all the others like it would probably be a good place to start as to why. Even so there are plenty of incredible female guitarists out there


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## flint757 (Feb 12, 2015)

Necris said:


> ^ I can't help but feel you're maneuvering towards the old "My neigbor beats his wife but at least he's not like my other neighbor who beats his wife_, _his kids _and _his dog." style of argument.
> 
> Does the fact that there is almost always something worse to be found make something undesirable suddenly okay? Does anyone here actually believe that?



Funny thing is women have had probably more success in hip hop despite the way they are treated compared to metal. Of course they've had to fully embrace being as sexy as possible to do it, but that's their fault according to some people here. 

Have the people who fall on the other side of this debate considered that the fact that women tend to only succeed when they are pretty or flaunt themselves is in fact a big part of the problem. The choice should certainly be available as guys and girls alike should have the right to flaunt whatever they please, but for women in the entertainment biz it is hardly an option. One could certainly say it's an 'advantage' and that they 'do it to themselves', but that completely ignores how advertisement works and the fact that it's pretty much predetermined (check the many opposing arguments here) that women are only successful when they flaunt themselves. I can name far more successful ugly dudes than I can ugly women across the board across many fields who are successful. The problem is far more complex than that obviously, but it certainly paints a picture.


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## JohnIce (Feb 12, 2015)

Andromalia said:


> Those are just not honest. For starters I have no clue who the first two are. The third one I could pickup a Cher photo to argue grandmothers have a future in rocknroll marketing.
> 
> What ? Where did I talk about this ? I was referring to the audience. Which usually is every metalhead in attendance barring the 3-7 people on the stage, which can be discounted for statistical reasons.
> 
> ...



Not honest? How, they all won what I said they won, just a few days ago at the Grammys. The two you don't know are Sam Smith and Beck. Sam Smith being overweight (by celebrity standards anyhow) and Beck being 45 years old. Just my elaborate way of making a point against your specific argument. Tenacious D won a Grammy, in 2015, Cher did not. She's been out of the public eye for the last 15 years at least. And Cher was widely considered an incredibly attractive woman back in the day so she's a bad example regardless.

At your second argument, I misunderstood you then. Not sure I agree but it's getting off-topic.

Your third argument I don't get. I know what Sophism is but not why you'd accuse me of doing it. I was just saying that you can't generalize about metal heads being open-minded, there's too many who aren't.


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## OmegaSlayer (Feb 12, 2015)

Necris said:


> ^ I can't help but feel you're maneuvering towards the old "My neigbor beats his wife but at least he's not like my other neighbor who beats his wife_, _his kids _and _his dog." style of argument.
> 
> Does the fact that there is almost always something worse to be found make something undesirable suddenly okay? Does anyone here actually believe that?



Nah, not maneuvering, just really feel that metal is one of those genres where ladies are better integrated.
They seem less at first casual impact.
But if you think about it, it's hard to see female musicians in pop and rock bands, except Jennifer Batten and maybe a few others but it's getting more and more common in metal.
And I'm talking about instrument players.

As for the "they can't play Vai, etc", I don't agree about the skills, but I think that most of the time girls have a less "violent" attitude on the instrument.
I think what changes between a male and female player is often just a matter of heavyness of palm mute and pick attack.


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## protest (Feb 12, 2015)

Don Vito said:


> Pre-beard Lucas Mann will forever be the cutest metal boi to me <3



That dude is way too pretty


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## JohnIce (Feb 12, 2015)

troyguitar said:


> Do you honestly believe that Orianthi would have been given all the same opportunities if she was any random white dude from say New York?



No. Neither would Keith Urban. Or Mötley Crüe. And I prefer Orianthi's music to the other two.


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## flint757 (Feb 12, 2015)

protest said:


> That dude is way too pretty



Is that a second then?


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## OmegaSlayer (Feb 12, 2015)

Didn't realized who Lucas Mann was, so I googled it and found this
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/3855784-post328.html
Sevenstring>Google>Sevenstring...


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## stevexc (Feb 12, 2015)

I love how this article lampooning metal _journalism_'s treatment of women in metal has turned into a ridiculous "debate" (if you can all it that, seeing as there's only one side with any valid points) about the reasons why female guitarists are few and far between.


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## OmegaSlayer (Feb 12, 2015)

Because we're guitarists before being metalheads (and many of us don't give a crap about metal)
Post this piece on metal-archives and see what happens LOL


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## Grief (Feb 12, 2015)

stevexc said:


> I love how this article lampooning metal _journalism_'s treatment of women in metal has turned into a ridiculous "debate" (if you can all it that, seeing as there's only one side with any valid points) about the reasons why female guitarists are few and far between.




Are there any school guitar teachers on here? 

I had some experience as peri teacher in 90s UK and there weren't many girls taking up guitar to start with. Could it be that they are choosing dance or netball or violin or clarinet or something else? When you're a kid there's only so many hobbies...

I think the sexism debate here has 3 sides: (potentially)anti-feminist, feminist and post-feminist. But that hasn't largely been about guitar specifically. And I'm not sure there's any objective validity to any of it: no ones seems to know if the metal music press objectifies women in order to gain a male audience or if it is because of the male audience that is already there. And no-one knows if women are dissuaded or disinterested in participation. For me the argument of objectification of women being wrong is about 30yrs out of date, which is curious as the majority of those best-selling metal albums were also about 30yrs old.


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## Aion (Feb 12, 2015)

troyguitar said:


> What percentage of hot women are in "famous" metal bands compared to hot women who are in "not famous" metal bands?
> 
> What percentage of the rest of the population are in "famous" metal bands compared to "not famous" metal bands?
> 
> ...



I know of a few metal bands with female members. They write good music, put on really solid shows, but none of them are blowing up. You are talking about the exception, not the rule.

I can tell you that I see and hear more misogyny from metalheads than almost any other group I associate with. There are a variety of logical reasons for this, none of which excuse this fact but they help to show the root cause of the problem.

Metal's values are traditionally masculine. This means that metal has mostly appealed to men more than women. Marketing in metal focuses on men. Women consumers are not be courted (or at least, not as much) by the industry, leading to a certain degree of alienation from it. Metal has become something of a boy's club because of this. Limited exposure to a group leads to the echo chamber effect and unfair stereotypes and prejudices. When men with already sexist tendencies (this is the part where any fedoras playing at home yell, "not all men," while the point whizzes over their heads) find their (not always so latent) sexism being mirrored, these qualities get worse. Metal marketing sees metal is listened to by more men than women, marketing caters to them. All of this helps to alienate women and contributes to a cycle of sexism in metal music.

Metal music is not sexist, metal does not make anyone sexist, but there is a reason why many people who are already sexist like metal. It's the same reason why many neo-nazis like certain types of metal. Neither caused the other (though Hitler's riffage in "I Want to Reich and Roll All Night," had a clear effect on the 1930's German metal scene), but there's a connection there that begs understanding.

As a sidenote, guys, don't you see how the objectification of women degrades men as well? I would argue that men profit off of it more than women, but it does not just harm women. The assumption that I won't buy or like something a women does if she doesn't show some T&A is based on the idea that I can only think with one of my heads. Ummm no, to borrow a phrase, my brain is up here. Sexism and misogyny isn't a women's issue, it's a people issue. And frankly I want to be on the side fixing it rather than supporting it.


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## coreysMonster (Feb 12, 2015)

Grief said:


> We haven't got anywhere near exploring why there are less female participants in metal subculture. But answer certainly doesn't have to be sexism - maybe there just aren't that many successful female metal musicians in the same way there aren't that many fans.


My guess is a lot of it has to do with women not being allowed to be ugly, vulgar and disgusting. 

When I was a kid I had Slipknot, a bunch of ugly ............s wearing Halloween masks and being generally pretty gross, writhing around in fake blood and real vomit. And I and millions of other teenagers _loved _it, girls included, so nobody can say it's because girls just don't like it. It's the whole "That's not very ladylike" thing.
Vulvatron, the new frontalien of GWAR, is a step in the right direction, in my opinion. She gets to be mean and gross like everyone else in the band and squirts blood from her huge prosthetic boobs, though why they didn't let her also have the huge prosthetic dick, I don't understand. 

Like a lot of societal problems I think it's a complicated mixture of a bunch of things, and I personally think it's not only the number of female metal musicians, but also the type - if metal were nothing but pretty-boy model types I know I sure as hell would never have been as attracted to it (but then that's just me).


EDIT: the medical term for the male genitalia is censored but dick isn't??


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## OmegaSlayer (Feb 12, 2015)

Let's also say that is not really easy to find a girl that generally enjoys violence, morbid themes and so on. 
And most of all, so anti-social to not mind being treated as an outcast.


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## TedEH (Feb 12, 2015)

Grief said:


> I think the sexism debate here has 3 sides: (potentially)anti-feminist, feminist and post-feminist.



There's no reason to call everyone who isn't in support of feminism an "anti-feminist". It's very possible to be in support of some of the same core principals, but to disagree with some of the more specific details/approaches/viewpoints that are currently associated with it. Maybe it's not what you were trying to imply, but that statement reads the same way as "if you're not a feminist, you must be sexist."


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## redstone (Feb 12, 2015)

Creativity is culture-proof. It's not a path one can learn from others. I'm sick of people asking others to treat them like someone they could never be in any other circumstances.

It's too bad our culture princessizes women but I don't expect a woman standing against such oppression to play metal like a diva. To hell with special treatments.


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## Grief (Feb 12, 2015)

TedEH said:


> There's no reason to call everyone who isn't in support of feminism an "anti-feminist". It's very possible to be in support of some of the same core principals, but to disagree with some of the more specific details/approaches/viewpoints that are currently associated with it. Maybe it's not what you were trying to imply, but that statement reads the same way as "if you're not a feminist, you must be sexist."



You're absolutely right, it is of course more nuanced than that. And there's like a billion different parts of differing debates going on here. I was clumsily try to distinguish between those who think that feminism isn't an issue here because it perhaps has never been and those that think it isn't an issue because as a society we have passed that point and evolved into something else.


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## TedEH (Feb 12, 2015)

Aion said:


> I know of a few metal bands with female members. They write good music, put on really solid shows, but none of them are blowing up. You are talking about the exception, not the rule.



I wouldn't go that far. Every band I've seen with female members has gained at least some small amount of popularity for being "that band with the chick singer" or something like that. Being a woman in a band doesn't immediately make you a celebrity, but there's no denying the marketing power behind it. Even in the cases where said woman musician was actively trying to play down the effect, it happens anyway.

And then you have those bands that do it on purpose. I had a friend who I taught some bass to, and she went off to join one of those all-girl bands that plays up the all-girl-ness. Musically, they're terrible, but they draw a crowd. They were more popular than any band I've been in when they were around, and I could play circles around any of them on their respective instruments. They'd have none of that if the band wasn't made up of attractive women.


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## Aion (Feb 12, 2015)

TedEH said:


> Musically, they're terrible, but they draw a crowd. They were more popular than any band I've been in when they were around, and I could play circles around any of them on their respective instruments. They'd have none of that if the band wasn't made up of attractive women.



What that tells me is that your local market is over-saturated with all male metal band with nothing extraordinary about them, nothing that really separates them from one another. Meanwhile there is in fact a market demand for more women performers. I know some bands who've gotten a boost in their fanbase because they had some kind of "weird," instrument (which in metal can be something like a violin). Assuming they're not exploiting themselves any further than happening to have boobs (and having boobs really isn't their fault), there's really no difference.


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## TedEH (Feb 12, 2015)

Grief said:


> I was clumsily try to distinguish between those who think that feminism isn't an issue here because it perhaps has never been and those that think it isn't an issue because as a society we have passed that point and evolved into something else.



I see what you were getting at now.

My unsolicited opinion in that matter is that we're not really in either of those situations. I think it's important to make the distinction that womens issues and feminism now are not the same as they were a while back. I mean that in the sense that there's a huge difference between something like women not being allowed to vote compared to women being mildly offended that they're objectified pretty often.

I think that we've made a lot of progress in terms of some of the original, basic, or traditional forms of feminism. There are more women in power, etc. Lots of people claim there's no wage gap, but I'm not knowledgeable about that. Women get a lot more rights and respect now than they used to. It's not perfect, there are still issues there, including some countries that are pretty far behind by that standard, but progress is being made in this area in general and I'm all for that trend continuing. 

But what we have now is an entirely different thing. Many modern forms of feminism (not all of course) don't concern themselves with politics or with other countries or cultures. A lot of this modern wave of feminism spends its time going after things like gaming or metal- and don't get me wrong, there's some legitimacy in trying to make sure that as many things as possible are inclusive to as many people as possible, I'm not arguing that, but I just can't think of these issues with the same weight as the things that feminism used to be up against. Nor do I think that feminisms chosen targets are really the source of the problem, so much as symptoms of deeper misunderstanding between the sexes that have nothing to do with the given male-dominated-target-of-the-day. And it's my opinion that some of it goes too far, in that it stops being about equality and starts stifling otherwise healthy male sexuality or non-sexual behavior. Again, it's not always the case because everyone's flavor of what feminism is will vary so much- but I can't get behind modern feminism simply on the basis that I feel some of the ways the term is wielded are misguided or misdirected.

I think it would be wrong to say that feminism is a non-issue for either of those reasons, but more fair to say that sometimes it gets off track.


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## TedEH (Feb 12, 2015)

Aion said:


> What that tells me is that your local market is over-saturated with all male metal band with nothing extraordinary about them, nothing that really separates them from one another. Meanwhile there is in fact a market demand for more women performers.



I'm not talking about metal in this case. And when I say they were terrible, I mean it. Like every song was the same three chords in the same key because I don't think they could play anything else kind of terrible. I'm talking at least one obvious trainwreck per show, despite how simple the songs were. But they filled most venues they played at.

While I wouldn't say there's a not a lack of women performers in our metal scene (or in non-metal) here, there's quite a few music women around here. Realistically, the women in metal in this area are pretty well respected for their musical value, even if they do experience a lot of what's been described here at the same time.


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## OmegaSlayer (Feb 12, 2015)

This sums up what sexism or talk about different sexuality is on the internet



I feel like people enjoys more to talk about it than apply in real life what they talk about.


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## asher (Feb 12, 2015)

I love that scene, but wut?


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## Louis Cypher (Feb 12, 2015)

asher said:


> I love that scene, but wut?



I guess he is saying most people talk a good game bout not being sexist etc etc but when it comes to real life they are just as sexist as those they criticise online


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## JohnIce (Feb 12, 2015)

OmegaSlayer said:


> I feel like people enjoys more to talk about it than apply in real life what they talk about.



Do you know _anyone_ in this thread in real life?


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## SD83 (Feb 12, 2015)

2 days and the thread exploded... now where is the official SSO hottest guys in metal list? 
As Lemmy said, "There's nothing wrong with good manners. They're free, everybody should have them", but as long as you stick to that, am I at fault when I like looking at women (or human beings in general) I find attractive while listening to the music I love? If all of that is sexism, Boybands are probably its purest form. Is it already objectiving if I say "I know nothing about that person, except she can play the guitar and I think she looks good"? In fact, I hardly ever hear things like that from my male friends. The female ones, however... "Oh, the singer is sooooo cute!" "I don't really care about the band, but he is so damn hot." etc. Maybe I'm just lucky and live in my own little world and everything outside of it is just ....ed up...
(I do realise there are problems with sexism in the metal scene. A few friends of mine stopped going to concerts and parties as they always had pretty much a circle of drooling drunk guys around them, but from what I heard, at least where I live, the situation is far worse in the reggae or goa scene. And I kind of lost my thread and am getting nowhere... sorry  )


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## JohnIce (Feb 12, 2015)

SD83 said:


> 2 days and the thread exploded... now where is the official SSO hottest guys in metal list?
> As Lemmy said, "There's nothing wrong with good manners. They're free, everybody should have them", but as long as you stick to that, am I at fault when I like looking at women (or human beings in general) I find attractive while listening to the music I love? If all of that is sexism, Boybands are probably its purest form. Is it already objectiving if I say "I know nothing about that person, except she can play the guitar and I think she looks good"? In fact, I hardly ever hear things like that from my male friends. The female ones, however... "Oh, the singer is sooooo cute!" "I don't really care about the band, but he is so damn hot." etc. Maybe I'm just lucky and live in my own little world and everything outside of it is just ....ed up...
> (I do realise there are problems with sexism in the metal scene. A few friends of mine stopped going to concerts and parties as they always had pretty much a circle of drooling drunk guys around them, but from what I heard, at least where I live, the situation is far worse in the reggae or goa scene. And I kind of lost my thread and am getting nowhere... sorry  )



Objectification itself isn't the problem, it's the context that matters. Much like a bullet isn't dangerous and neither is an empty gun, but put them together and you have something dangerous. Objectification can be harmless, but it can also be used to fuel an established global system of oppression. So if you don't know what you're doing, you may think you're being harmless when in fact you're not.

But no, saying someone looks good is not objectification


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## Dayn (Feb 12, 2015)

DarkWolfXV said:


> Yeah, run out of arguments so you might as well call someone autistic to discredit them. That always works.


I think this sums up the amount of delusion shown by some in this thread. Not only a textbook MRA, but also brings up autism out of the blue when it was never mentioned before.

Is it any wonder people, women in particular, don't want to be near people like this? The people I've met who do, end up becoming a client to get them a protection order...


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## Eliguy666 (Feb 12, 2015)

The only reason to want to be around somebody like that is verification-of-prejudice, I think.


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## Mprinsje (Feb 12, 2015)

SD83 said:


> 2 days and the thread exploded... now where is the official SSO hottest guys in metal list?



1: me
2: me
3: me

Runner up: the rest of you

EDIT: Misread that, thought it said the hottest guys on SSO list.

point still stands


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## DarkWolfXV (Feb 12, 2015)

Dayn said:


> I think this sums up the amount of delusion shown by some in this thread. Not only a textbook MRA, but also brings up autism out of the blue when it was never mentioned before.
> 
> Is it any wonder people, women in particular, don't want to be near people like this? The people I've met who do, end up becoming a client to get them a protection order...



The "fedora" "meme" or however you want to call it is making fun of people with Aspergers syndrome (which are high functioning autists), and I hope that you realize this. A textbook MRA? You have no clue. You don't know me. I too can play this game, I too can imply. So: You sound like a stereotypical, man hating modern feminist, living in delusion that _every_ man is out there to sexually assault women and perpetuate in the "rape culture", this is your delusional "utopia", but ironically, you love reading _50 Shades of Grey_. See, this works both ways. Might be completely bullshit, but I too can base who you are on a post on the Internet. And I'm pretty sure that there are people that want to be around me, I have a wide circle of friends (which includes women), and even, *gasp*, a girlfriend. No protection orders so far


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## Eliguy666 (Feb 12, 2015)

My older brother has Asperger's Syndrome, and he's got far healthier views on gender equality than you're displaying. Don't pretend to be the well-behaving one when you're actually using the term "autist" and throwing around "retarded" as an insult.
As to 50 Shades: has any book been under heavier criticism from feminists? It's an awful book, stop pretending that we enjoy it.
Hopefully, some day, you'll think back to those ideas and be ashamed.


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## Necris (Feb 12, 2015)

DarkwolfXV hates the PC police and thinks it's ridiculous that people get upset over "retard" being used an insult. He then proceeds to get upset when someone unwittingly implies he has autism/aspergers because now he's being called abnormal. 

Consistency, please.


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## Grief (Feb 12, 2015)

It's a shame that page 6 got to be the page where it all got reduced to name-calling. 

Dayn you are implying you are some kind of lawyer? Eli you are representing your employer with your posts?

Have a look at the man you are calling these things - I presume he is in the middle:

https://www.facebook.com/Lichmistress1/info?tab=page_info

Is this really a noble endeavor? Shouting down a young man whose views you don't agree with in favor of standing up for some groups of women no-one has even shown exist? 

Guys maybe the girls just prefer the violin or the oboe or think heavy metal is a bit sh!t. That just might be it - we haven't seen much evidence to the contrary here.


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## InfestedRabite (Feb 12, 2015)

DarkWolfXV said:


> The "fedora" "meme" or however you want to call it is making fun of people with Aspergers syndrome (which are high functioning autists), and I hope that you realize this.



actually its literally just a group of people who have very bad taste in fashion

and that overlapped nicely with their very bad views on women, to the point where it became an unofficial 'uniform' and something negative to look out for


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## Eliguy666 (Feb 12, 2015)

-I have established with my employer that I do not and will not represent the company, the listing in my signature exists only in accordance with forum rules. I question the relevance of your mention of it.
-It's really quite disrespectful to link somebody's identity without their permission, but, if you really do want an answer, looks/age/style/whatever you're going after do not affect a person's moral quality.
-If you really don't believe that female metallers exist/feel unwelcome, and that sexism is an issue in metal, here's a few literary accounts. I assume that all of the authors are fabricated personalities  
Are you talking to me: Respecting women in metal
Rock bottom: why Mastodon's misogynistic new video misfires | Music | The Guardian
Trivium | Quadrivium &bull; Sexism and Bigotry in Heavy Metal
Sexism in extreme metal - The Daily Iowan
A subculture evolving: Women in metal speak out » peoplesworld
https://omimetal.wordpress.com/2011/06/24/taylor-momsen-and-metal-marketings-sexist-pig-problem/
As well as pretty much the majority of things from "Girls Don't Like Metal"


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## JohnIce (Feb 12, 2015)

Grief said:


> It's a shame that page 6 got to be the page where it all got reduced to name-calling.
> 
> Dayn you are implying you are some kind of lawyer? Eli you are representing your employer with your posts?
> 
> ...



I hang around mostly girls. Aside from my band members who are guys, most of my other close friends are girls. Nearly all of them metalheads and/or musicians. My sisters are feminists and musicians. It's their experiences and testimonials that formed my views on these issues, and why I feel confident talking about it. Debating that these women don't exist is a new turn in this thread that I didn't see coming because these women are my friends. They're real and I can't imagine how you've missed them.

Secondly, about the "shouting down a young man whose views you don't agree with"... I'm eternally grateful for receiving that treatment. The fact that my friends had the backbone to call me out for being a douche, correcting me when I expressed sexism and unknowingly insulted minorities, that made me grow up to be a man I'm much more happy being than what I used to be, say 5 years ago. I'm a reformed chauvinist, I still slip up sometimes, but I'm trying my best to be a better man and both myself and my friends like me better for it. I pay attention when someone who knows more than me talks about sociopolitical issues, because it can teach me to be less of an asshole and I'm grateful people are willing to slap me on the ear if I drift off the path.


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## flint757 (Feb 12, 2015)

Grief said:


> Guys maybe the girls just prefer the violin or the oboe or think heavy metal is a bit sh!t. That just might be it - we haven't seen much evidence to the contrary here.



You may be right, but then again the absence of a group makes it hard to actually know either way. I assume you think this is the case though. However, the same logic could have been applied to women in the workforce too in the 80's and 90's. The lack of participants doesn't necessarily mean it is a conscious choice. Metal is a male dominated genre full of people who seem to not want women getting more involved in it. Does that promote an atmosphere where women want to join in? Some do anyhow and overcome the obstacles, but it would also explain the low numbers. Both are equally valid so dismissing the conversation wholesale isn't very helpful either.


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## Grief (Feb 12, 2015)

^not dismissing the convo just questioning where is the evidence.

I have some limited experience of guitar teaching and saw it not being popular with girls. I don't think they were being scared away by music press at 8yrs old. We haven't heard from anyone else that has offered anything on this point.

I have quite a bit of music industry experience (in order of 15yrs in various forms) and don't recognize the need for this movement. There's women working at all levels and I personally see women participants in scene treated well.

And when it seems here that it is men wanting to make changes of/for women that for some reason don't seem to asking for those changes themselves it smacks of, well, exactly what the idea of feminism is not to do. 

Oh and Eliguy, the facebook link was from the page in the lad's signature. It's his facebook page to promote his band and he's promoting his band here.


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## Eliguy666 (Feb 12, 2015)

A couple reasons why I'm a feminist:
-My current partner has been told to quit following her dreams as an artist and follow me where I end up, even though she's already got a full ride to an art college and is much better set for the future than I am.
-I'm gender non-binary, but people try to "encourage" me by saying I'm more male than I feel.
-People at my mother's work still try to tear her down, because they think she's too ambitious for a woman in charity.
-I was raped by my ex-girlfriend, and there's nothing I can do legally because Texas doesn't recognize non-female victims of sexual assault, so I still go to the same school as they do.

Throughout all of this, it's been feminists who have helped me to feel at home and who've given me the best advice.
I'm a feminist because I care dearly for the women in my life and recognize that they deserve better than they get.


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## Duosphere (Feb 12, 2015)




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## Grief (Feb 12, 2015)

I took a look at the evidence you put forward:



Eliguy666 said:


> Let's look at these:
> 
> Are you talking to me: Respecting women in metal - from 1987?
> Rock bottom: why Mastodon's misogynistic new video misfires | Music | The Guardian - a good one to consider whether or not something is still satire, even if it is bad satire
> ...



Eli I just read your post above and it sounds admirable stuff. But are you sure we don't agree? My point is women should be able to choose to do whatever they want and are welcome participants on the metal sphere I operate in.


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## Necris (Feb 12, 2015)

I worked at a place that gave music lessons for four years and my experience that guitar was unpopular runs counter to yours. We had teachers for everything but banjo, organ and other less common instruments so it's not like there were limited options. Were there more boys than girls overall? Yes.

However, there were still plenty of girls who wanted guitar lessons, drum lessons and bass lessons. With very little variation they all wanted to learn rock songs and play rock songs. Metal? Not so much, at least nothing harder than metallica or maybe slayer aside from one teenage girl who wanted to learn some Necrophagist (that was a nice change from the constant barrage of the intro to back in black played poorly by 6-12 year old boys who refused to practice ). I can count on one hand how many male students were working on metal songs while I was working there despite the fact that all of our teachers were open to teaching it and a couple even played in metal bands.

We also had a program where the students could learn songs together and we would put on a performance for all of the different bands that formed from that. We had a band full of girls. Guitarist/Vocalist, Guitarist (we had an excess of guitarists in general) Bassist, Drummer. They played songs by Green Day, Acid Bath (the bassist chose that one) and the Cranberries and a couple other songs I don't remember. A couple of these students even ended up taking lessons on a second instrument after a while.

While I was there far more of our female students were learning guitar, bass or drums, than were learning voice/orchestral string instruments (violin,etc.)/woodwinds. We had more girls signed up for drum lessons than we ever had for violin/woodwinds, and they stuck with lessons longer than those girls too. Piano wasn't much more popular with males than it was with females as far as I recall. A good number of the people taking voice or piano lessons were either young children or teenagers on their way to college doing it because they wanted to become music majorsand figured they might as well get a head start since they would have to learn piano anyway and aural skills would be good to start developing too.


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## JohnIce (Feb 12, 2015)

Grief said:


> ^not dismissing the convo just questioning where is the evidence.
> 
> I have some limited experience of guitar teaching and saw it not being popular with girls. I don't think they were being scared away by music press at 8yrs old. We haven't heard from anyone else that has offered anything on this point.
> 
> ...



I taught guitar for a while and had around 20 students of all ages. The younger students, around 16 and younger, were fairly mixed but actually more girls than guys. The few older students however (20-45 year olds) were all guys. And when I started taking lessons myself (at 9 years old) it was me and two girls. So my experience is different than yours. However, out of the really talented musicians and songwriters I know who decided _on purpose_ not to pursue a career in music, most of them are female. Is it a coincidence then that all my older students were male? From what I've gathered talking to these people, it's not a coincidence.

Also what you said about feminism, is not really accurate. It's everyone's responsibility. If I sit in a room full of only white guys and someone says something bad about black people, I reserve the right to criticize that dick. And if he instead says something bad about women, I also reserve the right to criticize the dick. Why? Because if there were actual black people or women in the room, the dick would've waited until they left before speaking ill about them, so they couldn't have defended themselves regardless. This forum is no different, we're mostly dudes here and the jargon reflects that. If any change is gonna happen here there has to be some dudes involved


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## DarkWolfXV (Feb 12, 2015)

Necris said:


> DarkwolfXV hates the PC police and thinks it's ridiculous that people get upset over "retard" being used an insult. He then proceeds to get upset when someone unwittingly implies he has autism/aspergers because now he's being called abnormal.
> 
> Consistency, please.



Not upset, I merely pointed out that I didn't bring out autism "out of the blue" by saying that calling someone "fedora wielding" also implies that they are autistic. Dayn apparently did not make the connection (possibly not knowing what it implies) and said I brought it "out of the blue", so I explained that he/she is wrong. I think that telling someone to "Go take their fedora elsewhere." aka calling them autistic to discredit them instead of presenting valid arguments to your point is pretty stupid. Even if we retort to insults, why is it okay for person A to call someone "autistic", but not okay for person B to call something "retarded" (especially when I did not use it as a personal insult i.e person C is *insert insult here* and Dayn did?). By this point, to me, this looks like blind bias.


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## Chokey Chicken (Feb 12, 2015)

Since when does wearing a fedora mean anything related to autism? Did I miss something?


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## ElRay (Feb 12, 2015)

wat said:


> How ARE women treated in the metal scene?



I thought both of them got a lot of attention.


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## flint757 (Feb 12, 2015)

I've never heard of a fedora being associated with autism. 

How would one make that leap anyhow. Do a lot of autistic people wear fedoras?


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## Grief (Feb 12, 2015)

JohnIce said:


> Also what you said about feminism, is not really accurate. It's everyone's responsibility. If I sit in a room full of only white guys and someone says something bad about black people, I reserve the right to criticize that dick. And if he instead says something bad about women, I also reserve the right to criticize the dick. Why? Because if there were actual black people or women in the room, the dick would've waited until they left before speaking ill about them, so they couldn't have defended themselves regardless. This forum is no different, we're mostly dudes here and the jargon reflects that. If any change is gonna happen here there has to be some dudes involved



Thanks to all for your input of young girls learning guitar. It's good to hear some other input.

I'm afraid that analogy above is really bad, because the proposal here seems more akin to you going up to the black guy and telling him he's not being the black guy you think he should be and that it's the fault of you and the other white guys to do something about. 

That's where we were some pages back with Maria Brink isn't it? Just to clarify that position it's that women are exploited by/because of men and somehow it should be stopped? And further if it were that there are lots of women keen to gravitate to metal music?

My proposal is essentially Maria's a clever girl I'm sure and quite aware of what she is doing. And further that from what i've seen there's plenty of subcultural space for women and anyone should they choose to participate. Such as we might suggest has been availed of by Kim Kelly and the previously discussed female and transwoman headed UK extreme metal press.


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## JohnIce (Feb 12, 2015)

Grief said:


> Thanks to all for your input of young girls learning guitar. It's good to hear some other input.
> 
> I'm afraid that analogy above is really bad, because the proposal here seems more akin to you going up to the black guy and telling him he's not being the black guy you think he should be and that it's the fault of you and the other white guys to do something about.
> 
> ...



I want to understand your point but I really don't see it in regards to anything I've posted in this thread. I think you either misunderstood me, or I'd need you to elaborate so I see what you're saying.

- edit - Oh and DarkWolf, I had to google your fedora=autism thing and it's apparently a 4chan joke. It has nothing to do with actual autism. We're having a grownup debate here, don't bring 4chan into it please.


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## flint757 (Feb 12, 2015)

Grief said:


> Thanks to all for your input of young girls learning guitar. It's good to hear some other input.
> 
> I'm afraid that analogy above is really bad, because the proposal here seems more akin to you going up to the black guy and telling him he's not being the black guy you think he should be and that it's the fault of you and the other white guys to do something about.
> 
> ...



It's a matter of expectations. Do X to succeed or you don't succeed at all sort of thing. That applies to black people as well actually. I've seen it numerous times where rather mundane things are praised for minorities as if the majority of them are incapable of being what they expect. Like in an annual review saying that you're professional or well spoken. It's a white collar job, that is pretty much the default behavior. Being praised for doing nothing is quite the indicator of what their preconceived notions of you were before they even hired you. A lot of the necessary changes do have to happen outside of the community mostly affected.


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## Grief (Feb 12, 2015)

^Well the point is that it's the way women are presenting *themselves* that is the problem. Who are we as mere men to say they can't do sexy photo shoot? Your position is that somehow they should be prevented from doing so for benefit of other women?


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## flint757 (Feb 12, 2015)

Did I say that? No. Quite the leap...

They can do as they please and if that is what they wish more power to them (same with guys for that matter); I've said this before here as well so you shouldn't have been confused. What I'm saying is the environment we live in creates a set of expectations that most people either have to conform to, or think they have to conform to, to succeed. That statement is not gender specific either. It just applies to women in what we are currently discussing.


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## JohnIce (Feb 12, 2015)

Grief said:


> ^Well the point is that it's the way women are presenting *themselves* that is the problem. Who are we as mere men to say they can't do sexy photo shoot? Your position is that somehow they should be prevented from doing so for benefit of other women?



Alright, I see what you're saying now  But no, that has never been my point, and if it comes across that way I'm glad you pointed it out so I can be more clear.

In my opinion, the way women present themselves, sexy or otherwise, is not the problem at all. In fact, this whole thread originally had nothing to do with women changing, and everything to do with men changing. But some guys here are just doing their best to shift the responsibilities (and blame) towards women instead. I'm pretty sure neither I nor the people like Aion, flint757, Necris and Eliguy are making a case that women are responsible for the problems discussed in this thread.


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## Grief (Feb 12, 2015)

flint757 said:


> It's a matter of expectations. Do X to succeed or you don't succeed at all sort of thing.



Looks like I took a bad analogy and somehow made it worse h aha.

Anyhow, totally agree it is part of expectation of women and also increasingly so of men. The men photos in Kim's piece are good evidence that days are coming to an end for men in metal photoshoot of chuck on a faded tshirt and look like you all only eat Spam (that's you Amon Amarth).

What happens next? Will there be queue of slovenly men next to queue of average-looking girls waiting for all those fit, hot tosspots to get out of the way?

I agree those expectations are there, just maybe not that they create a problem as others have posited.


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## coreysMonster (Feb 12, 2015)

I promised myself to not get into any more feminism arguments on the internet but this thread is making it really hard.

I'm just gonna say things without arguing, these are just statements of how I see things:

- Snark is a terrible way of getting a point across and has never changed anybody's mind about anything, ever.

- The internet is a really, really, really bad place to talk about politics, especially something as heated as feminism, and it's only getting worse thanks to very loud, very vocal minorities

- Having different opinions is okay, the important thing to agree on is that women are people and should have equal rights, and yes, there is also benevolent sexism towards women, but that's still sexism

- That Lucas Mann video is hilarious, every single time

- When, for the love of god, are we going to make the SSO hot guys in metal list


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## Eliguy666 (Feb 12, 2015)

I'll always encourage sexual freedom in people, women and men, and everyone in between or otherwise, alike. The issue is that I feel like the current social climate makes that the only way for many women to succeed in music.


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## flint757 (Feb 13, 2015)

Grief said:


> Looks like I took a bad analogy and somehow made it worse h aha.
> 
> Anyhow, totally agree it is part of expectation of women and also increasingly so of men. The men photos in Kim's piece are good evidence that days are coming to an end for men in metal photoshoot of chuck on a faded tshirt and look like you all only eat Spam (that's you Amon Amarth).
> 
> ...



Inherently I don't necessarily think it poses a problem. It certainly isn't _always_ a problem, but I'm sure it has been and will be in the future. The issue is when it is in fact a problem you'll never know because the result is the absence of a result. That is something that is very hard to objectively measure when there are a multitude of factors involved.

Sounds like we mostly agree though. The only difference lies in how we view the effects of the conclusion, but we've both reached the same conclusion nonetheless.



coreysMonster said:


> I promised myself to not get into any more feminism arguments on the internet but this thread is making it really hard.
> 
> I'm just gonna say things without arguing, these are just statements of how I see things:
> 
> ...



Definitely needs to happen. 

Might be better if it happens in 2 separate threads though (I don't think this one can be salvaged for that cause ). One for people to offer suggestions and another to vote.


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## Grief (Feb 13, 2015)

JohnIce said:


> In my opinion, the way women present themselves, sexy or otherwise, is not the problem at all. In fact, this whole thread originally had nothing to do with women changing, and everything to do with men changing. But some guys here are just doing their best to shift the responsibilities (and blame) towards women instead. I'm pretty sure neither I nor the people like Aion, flint757, Necris and Eliguy are making a case that women are responsible for the problems discussed in this thread.



It's very interesting, but I do still wonder where, specifically in regard to metal music these women might be? Eli had a bash at some evidence but there really didn't seem much there that as either recent or tangible. Could this not simply be market serving itself?

I'd also be really interested to hear how you propose, If we agree for time being there is a problem in music press, for it to be solved. Particularly in light of commercial industry and of course dwindling physical media and print sales.


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## flint757 (Feb 13, 2015)

That's a much grander problem that has to begin with the people. Commercials, ads, PR Campaigns, etc. mirror the opinions of the people they are trying to communicate with. If the metal community, in this case, changed their perception then so would the rest.


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## Grief (Feb 13, 2015)

Eliguy666 said:


> I'll always encourage sexual freedom in people, women and men, and everyone in between or otherwise, alike. The issue is that I feel like the current social climate makes that the only way for many women to succeed in music.



I agree with this and would add that it is increasingly the case for men too. Maybe when all the men have to be buff more women will be interested?


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## Eliguy666 (Feb 13, 2015)

1. Start listening to Abnormality and some of the good Eluveitie vocals of Ana's
2. ... crap. I really don't know many other female artists. Is Angela Gossow's solo project going well?

I think Silje Wergeland is a pretty great vocalist, but don't know how metal her stuff is, just familiar with some Katatonia appearances.
Anette Olzon is also pretty damn good in Nightwish and Swallow the Sun.


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## troyguitar (Feb 13, 2015)

flint757 said:


> Did I say that? No. Quite the leap...
> 
> They can do as they please and if that is what they wish more power to them (same with guys for that matter); I've said this before here as well so you shouldn't have been confused. What I'm saying is the environment we live in creates a set of expectations that most people either have to conform to, or think they have to conform to, to succeed. That statement is not gender specific either. It just applies to women in what we are currently discussing.





JohnIce said:


> Alright, I see what you're saying now  But no, that has never been my point, and if it comes across that way I'm glad you pointed it out so I can be more clear.
> 
> In my opinion, the way women present themselves, sexy or otherwise, is not the problem at all. In fact, this whole thread originally had nothing to do with women changing, and everything to do with men changing. But some guys here are just doing their best to shift the responsibilities (and blame) towards women instead. I'm pretty sure neither I nor the people like Aion, flint757, Necris and Eliguy are making a case that women are responsible for the problems discussed in this thread.



So, would either of you care to share your thoughts on what you ARE saying instead of making people guess at your opinion and then you coming back with "I NEVER SAID THAT!"?

Please be as explicit as possible:

What is the problem?

What is the solution?


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## Grief (Feb 13, 2015)

^ that's all my fault for not quoting properly - sorry


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## Louis Cypher (Feb 13, 2015)

How many women have actually posted their thoughts on this thread? Coz surely as a woman they are far better placed to comment on sexism objectification etc etc in metal and guitar playing that's all being discussed here? I am gonna go out on a limb and say based on the 8 pages so far, not very many..... tbh if I was female I would probably be giving this thread a miss too


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## Eliguy666 (Feb 13, 2015)

Louis Cypher said:


> How many women have actually posted their thoughts on this thread? Coz surely as a woman they are far better placed to comment on sexism objectification etc etc in metal and guitar playing that's all being discussed here?



*Chokey Chicken posts*
"Well... uhh... that doesn't count!"


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## JohnIce (Feb 13, 2015)

troyguitar said:


> So, would either of you care to share your thoughts on what you ARE saying instead of making people guess at your opinion and then you coming back with "I NEVER SAID THAT!"?
> 
> Please be as explicit as possible:
> 
> ...



Sure thing 

Problem: Sexism, and the millions of extra problems it entails for both men and women. Those problems are very similar to the problems caused by racism, homophobia, islamophobia, you name it. It's a threat against equal opportunity, and in large doses it can spark sexual assault and domestic abuse.

Solution: Discussing and pointing out sexism, so that you can avoid being a part of the group that causes it. Most of us are raised sexist, by society. It's through discussions like these that we can get educated and with each generation slowly phase it out of society.

If you think that sounds bad, I honestly don't know what to tell you, man.



Louis Cypher said:


> How many women have actually posted their thoughts on this thread? Coz surely as a woman they are far better placed to comment on sexism objectification etc etc in metal and guitar playing that's all being discussed here? I am gonna go out on a limb and say based on the 8 pages so far, not very many..... tbh if I was female I would probably be giving this thread a miss too



Very few, yes. Cause most of the posters here are men. Would it be awesome to hear more from women on this subject? Yes! But in their absence, I'm not one to leave sexist comments hanging when I have a counter-argument ready to go. And if there were more women posting here, I bet a lot of these comments would be much less "honest". 

Anyhow as I mentioned before, random women are not by default an authority on sexism. The authorities on sexism are definitely women, but that's not the same thing. If you take all the women in the world who are racist, homophobic etc., I'm pretty sure none of them are feminists. Well, a feminist homophobe is pretty much an oxymoron.



OmegaSlayer said:


> These 2 girls are insanely talented...so I would like to know who put a gun to their heads to take these pics.



Probably the same people who put a gun to Dave Navarro's or Peter Steele's head... nobody. We covered this just a few posts ago.


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## OmegaSlayer (Feb 13, 2015)

Pete Steele (might he rest in peace and much respect) had a dong that was more history defining than his ability on bass guitar.
These grrrlllls do really shredz.
Pete had more reason to pose naked than these girls. (and with more reasons I'm not making a pun, just referring that his talent was quite limited, so he could show some skin to equalize)


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## Louis Cypher (Feb 13, 2015)

Eliguy666 said:


> *Chokey Chicken posts*
> "Well... uhh... that doesn't count!"



I don't get what your saying? Chokey Chicken is slang for w*nker I assume? Thats what it means here in the UK.....?


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## JohnIce (Feb 13, 2015)

Grief said:


> It's very interesting, but I do still wonder where, specifically in regard to metal music these women might be? Eli had a bash at some evidence but there really didn't seem much there that as either recent or tangible. Could this not simply be market serving itself?
> 
> I'd also be really interested to hear how you propose, If we agree for time being there is a problem in music press, for it to be solved. Particularly in light of commercial industry and of course dwindling physical media and print sales.



I'm glad you're genuinely interested man! Like I said earlier my experiences from this come from friends rather than any kind of celebrity statements, but I remember stumbling upon these:


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## Louis Cypher (Feb 13, 2015)

JohnIce said:


> Very few, yes. Cause most of the posters here are men. Would it be awesome to hear more from women on this subject? Yes! But in their absence, I'm not one to leave sexist comments hanging when I have a counter-argument ready to go. And if there were more women posting here, I bet a lot of these comments would be much less "honest".



TBH mate that was my point. This thread would be a million times better if there was alot more posts from women, but I agree with you on this and pretty much all your posts, yes not right to leave random sexism hanging or un-counter argued just coz there is an absence of those its directed at to argue on their own behalf.


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## JohnIce (Feb 13, 2015)

Louis Cypher said:


> TBH mate that was my point. This thread would be a million times better if there was alot more posts from women, but I agree with you on this and pretty much all your posts, yes not right to leave random sexism hanging or un-counter argued just coz there is an absence of those its directed at to argue on their own behalf.



Awesome, glad we cleared that up


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## asher (Feb 13, 2015)

And now, for what we all _really_ came here for:

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/off-topic/289648-official-hot-guys-metal-sso-edition-thread.html


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## yingmin (Feb 13, 2015)

JohnIce said:


> Very few, yes. Cause most of the posters here are men. Would it be awesome to hear more from women on this subject? Yes! But in their absence, I'm not one to leave sexist comments hanging when I have a counter-argument ready to go. And if there were more women posting here, I bet a lot of these comments would be much less "honest".



I used to post on a forum dedicated to a guitar tablature program. Almost all of the posters were male, and for very good reason: the second a poster revealed that they were female, they were flooded with comments about sharing naked pics, getting in the kitchen, etc. I'm sure most of the people responsible for those comments would sincerely describe them as good-natured, harmless ribbing, not deliberate cruelty; even if that were really the case, though, the results were still that almost no females posted on that forum for extended periods of time.


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## TedEH (Feb 13, 2015)

yingmin said:


> the second a poster revealed that they were female, they were flooded with comments about sharing naked pics, getting in the kitchen, etc.



I've not really come across that kind of behavior on this forum though. We're not ideal here either, and there's tons of variety of opinion, but I don't gather from this thread (or others) that we're entirely unwelcoming to women, especially given that we're only assuming we're speaking with other men. I've assumed a lot of users here were dudes until they said otherwise, at which point the way they were treated didn't change.


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## troyguitar (Feb 13, 2015)

JohnIce said:


> Sure thing
> 
> Problem: Sexism, and the millions of extra problems it entails for both men and women. Those problems are very similar to the problems caused by racism, homophobia, islamophobia, you name it. It's a threat against equal opportunity, and in large doses it can spark sexual assault and domestic abuse.
> 
> ...



What am I supposed to "learn" from this thread?

That women should not be allowed to use their appearance to get publicity?

Come on, dude. Put out a SPECIFIC point.

Problem: Sexism. and Solution: Talking. is an epic cop-out.

What EXACTLY is wrong with discussing the appearance of female metal musicians and how EXACTLY do we fix it?


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## vilk (Feb 13, 2015)

If you're a man or a woman, and you got a sexy body, you should let us less attractive people admire it.

If you've got a sexy body AND you're talented aside from looking good? Yeah, looking hot might detract attention from your talent. 

But I'm sorry, I pretty much can't feel bad for beautiful people. They get everything handed to them. Oh boooo hoooo no one cares how good at guitar you are because they're staring at your awesome physical form? Gosh that must just be soooooo hard...


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## ghostred7 (Feb 13, 2015)

TedEH said:


> I've not really come across that kind of behavior on this forum though. We're not ideal here either, and there's tons of variety of opinion, but I don't gather from this thread (or others) that we're entirely unwelcoming to women, especially given that we're only assuming we're speaking with other men. I've assumed a lot of users here were dudes until they said otherwise, at which point the way they were treated didn't change.



Ya....stupid earns ban-hammers here. From the bit I've been here, I haven't seen much gender-based anything going on. Certainly not to the level of the various firearm debates or any of the brand-vs-brand/type-vs-type debates around here.



Louis Cypher said:


> I don't get what your saying? Chokey Chicken is slang for w*nker I assume? Thats what it means here in the UK.....?



I'm thinking Chokey Chicken is one of our female posters?


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## asher (Feb 13, 2015)

^


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## JohnIce (Feb 13, 2015)

troyguitar said:


> What am I supposed to "learn" from this thread?
> 
> That women should not be allowed to use their appearance to get publicity?
> 
> ...



Once again, no, I don't think women shouldn't be allowed to use their appearance to get publicity. I think people should be able to do whatever they want with their own bodies. Like I said before, what I'm against here has nothing to do with the actions of women, it has to with the actions (and opinions) of men.

So to be even more specific than last time, here are things I'm against:
- Men who treat female musicians differently than they do male musicians
- Men who assume females can't play or know as much as men (Like the sound engineer who walked over to twist the volume knob on my sister's guitar when she didn't have sound... she is a goddamn guitar player, she knows what a volume knob is and she did check it already) 
- Men who think female musicians have to act like male musicians ("This is too girly, gay, pussies, not true metal")
- Men who think female musicians are NOT allowed to act like male musicians (Fvcking dykes, is she a boy or girl, show your boobs!")
- Men who make bands with females in them out to be a separate genre ("We already have Halestorm, Evanescence and Paramore, do we need another girl-band?" Yes I actually read a review like that in a swedish guitar magazine)
- Men who can see 500 bands getting undeserved attention and lash out on just the one band that has a female in it as if her crime is somehow worse than being an overrated dude

Those were a few examples. Not accusing anyone here of anything, just putting it out there. And yes, my solution to this is talking about it. It's not a cop-out. What do you suggest, solving it with violence? How the hell is discussion a cop-out?


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## Eliguy666 (Feb 13, 2015)

Theoretical question: If "girl-bands" are a genre, can I start one full of death metallers in schoolgirl outfits regardless of gender?
I would rock that.


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## troyguitar (Feb 13, 2015)

JohnIce said:


> Once again, no, I don't think women shouldn't be allowed to use their appearance to get publicity. I think people should be able to do whatever they want with their own bodies. Like I said before, what I'm against here has nothing to do with the actions of women, it has to with the actions (and opinions) of men.
> 
> So to be even more specific than last time, here are things I'm against:
> - Men who treat female musicians differently than they do male musicians
> ...



What is talking going to solve?

Everyone treats everyone differently because everyone is different dude. That's humanity.

We're not all the same.

Quite frankly, bands with women singing ARE a different style. They sound different.


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## troyguitar (Feb 13, 2015)

Further: You're claiming to be some great enlightened educator.

Please point out EXACTLY why I am a sexist and how to fix it.


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## flint757 (Feb 13, 2015)

You have reading comprehension issues. 

He used himself as an example as to the success of discussion on the topic. He said he was a 'douche' until his friends called him out on it. As for you, I doubt anything anyone does or says will change your opinion. You're far too jaded.

Also, really? So bands with female drummers, bassists or guitarists have some sort of girl funk they spew all over their music? You're ridiculous.  Yes, women singers sound different, but then again so do girly sounding guys. Girls can be in bands and NOT be singing, yet still be objectified by metal heads.


----------



## troyguitar (Feb 13, 2015)

flint757 said:


> You have reading comprehension issues.
> 
> He used himself as an example as to the success of discussion on the topic. He said he was a 'douche' until his friends called him out on it. As for you, I doubt anything anyone does or says will change your opinion. You're far too jaded.
> 
> Also, really? So bands with female drummers, bassists or guitarists have some sort of girl funk they spew all over their music? You're ridiculous.  Yes, women singers sound different, but then again so do girly sounding guys. Girls can be in bands and NOT be singing, yet still be objectified by metal heads.



That's why I said bands with women *SINGING* sound different.

Reading comprehension... you don't have it.

*SINGING*

*SINGING*

*SINGING*


----------



## JohnIce (Feb 13, 2015)

troyguitar said:


> What is talking going to solve?
> 
> Everyone treats everyone differently because everyone is different dude. That's humanity.
> 
> ...



So with "what's talking going to solve" you're basically saying political debate is useless, ideas can't be shared, minds can't be changed etc. Well judging from your posts, I can see how _you'd_ think _your_ mind can't be changed from talking to someone else. But to quote yourself: "We're not all the same". I'm clearly not like you, because nearly every opinion I have is the result of discussions, reading articles and hearing good arguments from someone, who changed my mind. Because I listened with an open mind and didn't say "talking isn't gonna change anything".

Edit - About female voices, there's just as much variety in female voices as there are in men. You don't decide an all-male band's genre based on the singer's voice, so why should you with women?



troyguitar said:


> Further: You're claiming to be some great enlightened educator.
> 
> Please point out EXACTLY why I am a sexist and how to fix it.



I didn't say you were a sexist. I said:


JohnIce said:


> Not accusing anyone here of anything, just putting it out there.



I listed things I deem as sexist but accused _you_ of nothing. If you feel something on the list applied to you, then I already told you why I think you're a sexist so why do you ask?

Furthermore I don't claim to be a great educator. You're making that up.


----------



## troyguitar (Feb 13, 2015)

You look at it as your duty to "set people straight" when they are "wrong" - is that not being an educator?

Come on.

I know that you're not a bad guy, but here you are acting all high and mighty like you are better than [some amount that is not all but is certainly a large enough portion to matter? how can I say that correctly?] other men.

How can you claim to know the thoughts of others?

How can you claim to treat all people equally?

You're not Jesus H. Christ.


----------



## flint757 (Feb 13, 2015)

troyguitar said:


> That's why I said bands with women *SINGING* sound different.
> 
> Reading comprehension... you don't have it.
> 
> ...





flint757 said:


> You have reading comprehension issues.
> 
> He used himself as an example as to the success of discussion on the topic. He said he was a 'douche' until his friends called him out on it. As for you, I doubt anything anyone does or says will change your opinion. You're far too jaded.
> 
> Also, really? So bands with female drummers, bassists or guitarists have some sort of girl funk they spew all over their music? You're ridiculous.  *Yes, women singers sound different, but then again so do girly sounding guys. Girls can be in bands and NOT be singing, yet still be objectified by metal heads.*



I read that and was pointing out how this discussion is not just about vocalists. You've stated that women should be treated differently because they are different. Musically you tried to justify this logic by pointing to vocalists. The only problem with that is that women fulfill other capacities in bands than just vocals too and are treated the same way regardless of that fact. 

In any case, as JohnIce stated, women come in just as many different flavors as dudes do vocally. Last I checked musical genres weren't classified by the gender of vocalists.

Also, I personally would have gone with an even larger font. It totally validates ones points.  If I don't have to scroll horizontally to see it then it isn't big enough.


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## flint757 (Feb 13, 2015)

I am curious though, if you find no benefit in the act of discussion on this topic what is it that _you_ are trying to accomplish by participating?


----------



## JohnIce (Feb 13, 2015)

troyguitar said:


> You look at it as your duty to "set people straight" when they are "wrong" - is that not being an educator?
> 
> Come on.
> 
> ...



First of all, thanks for saying I'm not a bad guy. I appreciate it, and I think the same applies to you 

My goal is to share ideas and pass on viewpoints based on my opinion that the world is too cold, individualistic and unhelpful. That's my home base. I think people hoard privilege and consciously or subconsciously sabotage others' chances of getting the same privileges. And in the western world, I find men, especially the white, straight kind, to be the most representative of this. But you're wrong thinking I think that I'm better than these men. I despise their selfishness and actions, but not the people behind them. I think people are just vessels for ideas, and ideas can always be improved and expanded upon. By open discussion and exchange of thoughts. This, I swear to you, is not bullshit. I feel that way, honestly. I know it's kinda like what Jesus said, but that's not my fault. And I'm agnostic. Me and Jesus disagree on a few things.

I claim to know the thoughts of others when I've talked to them and listened to their opinion. In your case I made an assumption and I was straightforward with you saying it was my judgement based on what you told me, and nothing more.

As for treating all people equally... I kinda do, honestly.


----------



## yingmin (Feb 13, 2015)

troyguitar said:


> I know that you're not a bad guy, but here you are acting all high and mighty like you are better than [some amount that is not all but is certainly a large enough portion to matter? how can I say that correctly?] other men.
> 
> How can you claim to know the thoughts of others?
> 
> ...


First off, you're not making a fine enough distinction here. JohnIce has, from his very post in this thread, been talking about attitudes and actions, not people themselves. He's not saying he's better than other people; people who think and act the way JohnIce is describing are not necessarily bad people. Nor is JohnIce saying that he is a better person; he tries to be conscientious in his thoughts and actions, and is, at most, better than a lot of other people at conforming to the specific ideal he's discussing. Second, if, for the sake of conversation, we can all agree that "sexism", however defined, is a bad thing, then what is JohnIce saying? All he's really doing is encouraging people to think a little bit more about the things they say and do, and be more aware of how they are thinking about these things. Even if JohnIce himself does not do that perfectly and at all times (and he can't, because he's human), why does that invalidate everything he's saying? That's the whole point of discussing things like this: by sharing our opinions, experiences, etc. respectfully and with an open mind, the ideal is that we will all benefit from it. There have been a number of posts that are just sneering and condescension, many that have been dismissive, and several that are just plain rude and mean-spirited. To be perfectly clear, people on both sides have been guilty of this, but it doesn't matter, because none of those do anything to help anything or anyone. 

Your posts in this thread have generally come across as very defensive, and defensiveness prevents people from really engaging with the content of a discussion like this. I would encourage you to think about your own thoughts and actions. If you feel that the things John has been saying cause you to feel defensive, think about why. Conversations like these are effectively a challenge of people's morality, so weigh the options in your mind: can you justify your own behavior to yourself? Would you feel better about yourself if you behaved more like JohnIce is encouraging you to? You don't have to answer any of those questions to us, but I would encourage you to answer them for yourself before you post in this thread again.

Basically, it's a question of the shoe fitting. If you think that the things he's saying apply to you, the first step should not be to get upset at him for saying so.


----------



## troyguitar (Feb 14, 2015)

I'm basically just pissed that women in metal get more "attention per unit of talent" than men do AND claim to be treated worse at the same time.

Everyone who gets positive attention gets negative attention too, male or female. That's what happens when you put yourself out there.

What do women want, to be ignored?


----------



## wankerness (Feb 14, 2015)

troyguitar said:


> I'm basically just pissed that women in metal get more "attention per unit of talent" than men do AND claim to be treated worse at the same time.
> 
> Everyone who gets positive attention gets negative attention too, male or female. That's what happens when you put yourself out there.
> 
> *What do women want, to be ignored?*



As the OP was clear about, the annoyance is that they get attention for being hot and nothing else. The "cutest boys in metal" article just illustrates how stupid it is. If that article was legitimately posted almost everyone would just groan and go "what the hell is wrong with this writer who cares what they look like," yet the exact same kind of article about women is written all the time with no irony and almost every metal fan seems to think it's awesome.


----------



## JohnIce (Feb 14, 2015)

troyguitar said:


> I'm basically just pissed that women in metal get more "attention per unit of talent" than men do AND claim to be treated worse at the same time.
> 
> Everyone who gets positive attention gets negative attention too, male or female. That's what happens when you put yourself out there.
> 
> What do women want, to be ignored?



Fair enough, but here's the problem with that argument: You're saying, basically, that men treat women differently than they do men (I agree), but as a man you deem that treatment to be preferential, and thus women should take what they get and be happy. There's a swedish word for that, don't know what it would be in english, but it roughly translates to "interpretative precedence" meaning you take the exclusive right to interpret how your actions affect others, and if they object, they're wrong. Feminists typically argue that this right should fall onto the recipient instead, in this case, women in the music industry. Thinking the grass is greener on their side isn't enough to base an argument on. I talk to enough of them (and certainly enough sexist male musicians) to believe the grass is way greener on our side, personally. Not all women will agree with that either, of course.

Long story short, neither you nor I can decide what women in the music industry are allowed to complain about, be offended by, or deem unfair. Perhaps "more attention per unit of talent" is not the goal of every female musician, if it was then a lot more musicians would join American Idol and the like. Personally, if I received the same level of internet hate, condescending comments and even benevolent sexism that Orianthi gets, I would probably give up and just play my guitar on my bedside instead. Just yesterday I saw a clip of her testing some Telecasters in a shop and the dude kept saying "Wow, this chick means it when she plays guitar, she really means it!" Well duh, she's a professional guitar player, what did you expect? And the first comment on the video is someone saying "Stick to PRS and leave the real guitars to the men". Imagine hearing that every day of your life.


----------



## yingmin (Feb 14, 2015)

troyguitar said:


> What do women want, to be ignored?


By and large, they want to be treated the same as men. They want to be judged on their merits alone, and by the same criteria as men, instead of being judged on their sexual attractiveness first and everything else second (at best). They want to have access to the same opportunities to succeed in what is still very much a men's club. Are any of those things so unreasonable to ask for?


----------



## Duosphere (Feb 14, 2015)

yingmin said:


> By and large, they want to be treated the same as men. They want to be judged on their merits alone, and by the same criteria as men, instead of being judged on their sexual attractiveness first and everything else second (at best). They want to have access to the same opportunities to succeed in what is still very much a men's club. Are any of those things so unreasonable to ask for?



Yep, that's why we don't have a gazillion naked women in magazines and movies, they all hate being judged on their sexual attractiveness 
Some of them did/do their best to be sex toys, they completely change their bodies and faces only God knows why because according to you they don't want to be judge on their sexual attractiveness 
Buddy, in what world have you been living ?


----------



## wankerness (Feb 14, 2015)

Duosphere said:


> Yep, that's why we don't have a gazillion naked women in magazines and movies, they all hate being judged on their sexual attractiveness
> Some of them did/do their best to be sex toys, they completely change their bodies and faces only God knows why because according to you they don't want to be judge on their sexual attractiveness
> Buddy, in what world have you been living ?



Yep, and there are a gazillion shirtless bimbo guys on the covers of magazines too, and some of them try to look all metro and wear eyeliner and get weird plastic surgery and go tanning. Thus all men want that to be how all men are seen, because all men have exactly the same brain, just like women. They'd all be happy if that were the main way that men were portrayed. Great insight!


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## Duosphere (Feb 14, 2015)

And that's why my reply was 100% sarcasm, we can't separate us by gender, colors etc cause we all have the same brain, the only differences between us is how we were raised, saying women are this way and men are that way is stupid, dumb people try to separate us by gender, colors, social classes etc.
When I look to men/women/black/white/poor/rich I only see people........some see dead people 
Some women love to be judge on their sexual attractiveness and some don't, no generalization.


----------



## troyguitar (Feb 14, 2015)

JohnIce said:


> Fair enough, but here's the problem with that argument: You're saying, basically, that men treat women differently than they do men (I agree), but as a man you deem that treatment to be preferential, and thus women should take what they get and be happy. There's a swedish word for that, don't know what it would be in english, but it roughly translates to "interpretative precedence" meaning you take the exclusive right to interpret how your actions affect others, and if they object, they're wrong. Feminists typically argue that this right should fall onto the recipient instead, in this case, women in the music industry. Thinking the grass is greener on their side isn't enough to base an argument on. I talk to enough of them (and certainly enough sexist male musicians) to believe the grass is way greener on our side, personally. Not all women will agree with that either, of course.
> 
> Long story short, neither you nor I can decide what women in the music industry are allowed to complain about, be offended by, or deem unfair. Perhaps "more attention per unit of talent" is not the goal of every female musician, if it was then a lot more musicians would join American Idol and the like. Personally, if I received the same level of internet hate, condescending comments and even benevolent sexism that Orianthi gets, I would probably give up and just play my guitar on my bedside instead. Just yesterday I saw a clip of her testing some Telecasters in a shop and the dude kept saying "Wow, this chick means it when she plays guitar, she really means it!" Well duh, she's a professional guitar player, what did you expect? And the first comment on the video is someone saying "Stick to PRS and leave the real guitars to the men". Imagine hearing that every day of your life.



Actually I'm saying that EVERYONE treats women differently than men.

Who do they use to show women's clothing? Hot women.

Who do they use to show women's makeup? Hot women.

Who's on the cover of Glamour? Hot women.

WOMEN and MEN alike all judge women on their appearance much more than they judge men. Why do you say that women have no role in this?

Are you really blaming men for not just their own thoughts but the thoughts of women as well, like some form of mind control? Do you believe that women are unable to form their own thoughts? Perhaps they're too stupid?


----------



## yingmin (Feb 14, 2015)

Duosphere said:


> And that's why my reply was 100% sarcasm, we can't separate us by gender, colors etc cause we all have the same brain, the only differences between us is how we were raised, saying women are this way and men are that way is stupid, dumb people try to separate us by gender, colors, social classes etc.
> When I look to men/women/black/white/poor/rich I only see people........some see dead people
> Some women love to be judge on their sexual attractiveness and some don't, no generalization.



I didn't think it would be necessary to state that not all women think exactly the same way. Really, that's kind of the point of this whole argument. We are talking about sexism in music, and specifically with that reply I was answering the question of what women who are complaining about sexism in music want instead of what they have now.


Duosphere said:


> Yep, that's why we don't have a gazillion naked women in magazines and movies, they all hate being judged on their sexual attractiveness
> Some of them did/do their best to be sex toys, they completely change their bodies and faces only God knows why because according to you they don't want to be judge on their sexual attractiveness
> Buddy, in what world have you been living ?


Certainly there are women (and men) who flaunt their sexuality simply because it's what they enjoy doing, but would you be willing to consider the possibility that many women do so out of a feeling that they will never gain recognition based on their talents alone, and that sexiness is the only way for them to gain recognition? Also, we're talking about music here, not modeling or acting; attractiveness shouldn't be a factor in how a musician is judged. Yes, men are still judged on their attractiveness, but not nearly as harshly. It is much easier for an overweight, unattractive or older musician to get noticed if they're male than if they're female. Do you disagree with that premise?


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## yingmin (Feb 14, 2015)

troyguitar said:


> I'm basically just pissed that women in metal get more "attention per unit of talent" than men do AND claim to be treated worse at the same time.



That isn't an entirely accurate statement. ATTRACTIVE female musicians may get more attention than the average male musician, but usually that attention is largely if not entirely focused on their attractiveness itself. Attractive male musicians might get more attention than unattractive male musician, but the gap is much smaller, and attractiveness rarely overrides a lack of talent. Unattractive female musicians rarely get much attention at all, regardless of their skill.



troyguitar said:


> WOMEN and MEN alike all judge women on their appearance much more than they judge men. Why do you say that women have no role in this?



And research shows that police are less reluctant to open fire on a black person than a white person, even if the officer is black. Does either of these facts mean that it's okay, and we should just accept those things happening?


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## troyguitar (Feb 14, 2015)

yingmin said:


> And research shows that police are less reluctant to open fire on a black person than a white person, even if the officer is black. Does either of these facts mean that it's okay, and we should just accept those things happening?



It means that everyone's a little bit racist sometimes...

John and others claimed that sexism is a men's issue, that women have no role in "fixing" it. That's false, women practice the same sexism.


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## Eliguy666 (Feb 14, 2015)

No, we said that sexism is a men's issue _too_.


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## troyguitar (Feb 14, 2015)

Eliguy666 said:


> No, we said that sexism is a men's issue _too_.





JohnIce said:


> In my opinion, the way women present themselves, sexy or otherwise, is not the problem at all. In fact, this whole thread originally had nothing to do with women changing, and everything to do with men changing. But some guys here are just doing their best to shift the responsibilities (and blame) towards women instead. I'm pretty sure neither I nor the people like Aion, flint757, Necris and Eliguy are making a case that women are responsible for the problems discussed in this thread.



Women aren't sexist, only MEN are sexist!


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## flint757 (Feb 14, 2015)

Troy, you've stated people look at you like a douche (in some other thread), or a sexist in this instance, but you don't do yourself any favors by bringing arguments to their extremes and clearly misrepresenting everyone's arguments to make them out as ridiculous. I'd say maybe it's just mis-communication, but you're the only one here still unclear on what everyone is discussing. Grief agreed with you mostly and knew what we were discussing towards the end.


No one has stated that women and men couldn't sex themselves up if that was what they wanted
No one said men are the only ones to blame
No one said women aren't a part of the solution/problem
The only thing being said here is that men ARE a part of the problem/solution

In this thread what is being discussed is that women are objectified in the metal community and it isn't always a 'gung-ho' choice when they choose to indulge [again, they certainly can if they want (in case you just gloss over it)]. Our entire society is built around objectifying women (meaning sex symbols, not literal objects). 

I've seen it where women who are overweight or average/below average not getting positions that interact with the public or not getting a promotion, I've witnessed women who smoke (to curb hunger), don't eat or work out 7 days a week just to fit what society expects them to be. I've heard testimony that it isn't what they 'want' to do either, like you have been claiming, but something they feel they have to do. It is an expectation of our society so they oblige, otherwise risk never succeeding. Counter that to men who can be overweight, not shave, not wear cologne, be exceptionally average looking and 1) society doesn't care (obviously not including actors or models here) and 2) they are not denied workplace opportunities because of their lack of a healthy body image. 

I worked under the ugliest dude on the planet at an engineering firm. He was in a multi-million dollar position too. Contrast that with most of the ugly women working in cubicles or positions that don't interact with the public and you can see where both the people involved and society at large are creating a negative situation. 

It isn't just the employers doing it either. In fact they are taking their cues from what society expects as well. This includes men because we are a part of society and a part of the group that sets these expectations. You're right that it isn't just men either. 

My sister, as an example, told me women shouldn't be working blue collar jobs and I imagine that isn't an entirely uncommon thought for women to have. That is also derived from society since it is a recent phenomenon for women to work in blue collar fields. She didn't just claim that she didn't want to work a blue collar job, but that women in general shouldn't be.

---

Based on your comment about the police discrimination issue I can conclude that you simply believe things should stay as they are: cops being racist and women being objectified. If the majority of people in the last 60 years thought like you Jim Crow laws would still be in place (I can exaggerate your position just as easily as you can ours ). 

Seriously though, where did ANYONE say women had no involvement in fixing the problem AND that men are the only part of the problem (and apparently the only ones who can fix it )? If the only way you can win a debate is by exaggerating your opponents position then you don't have much of a leg to stand on. If you don't think racism or sexism are problems why even bother discussing it? Do you think it is okay that police are less hesitant to shoot minorities, according to the data, just because we're _"all a little racist sometimes"_?

[EDIT]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain he meant that it isn't women who want women to wear sexy outfits, but dudes. I believe even you said they're just targeting a demographic, young men and teenage boys. That would heavily imply that, in this case, what men expect or want is probably what needs to change first. 

It's a large, multi-faceted issue that can't be broken down into a simple explanation/solution.

Also, he never said women aren't capable of being sexist, whether towards men or women. Read more carefully. 

[EDIT][EDIT]

*I'll add that by ugly I don't mean I necessarily find them ugly, as that is completely subjective. By ugly I mean they don't fit the stereotypical hot girl look.


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## Spaceman_Spiff (Feb 14, 2015)

Tommy Rogers.


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## troyguitar (Feb 14, 2015)

I'm just talking because that solves everything. 

I realize that you guys aren't actually saying ANYTHING beyond that. You keep talking down to me like my statements are all wrong, so clearly you think that "just talking" is not sufficient. At a minimum we apparently need to be saying the "right" things, no? Can you elaborate on your solution for all of this beyond "just talk about it"? Talking does not feel like it's going anywhere to me. How is this helping?

I do not have a solution. I'm still trying to piece together what "the problem" is SPECIFICALLY. You guys seem to have glossed over that part of the puzzle.

Live music in particular (or videos I suppose) is partly a visual performance art. I am always going to take the appearance of the performer(s) into account when judging the performance - male or female. Why is that wrong?

Why is enjoying watching some people more than others wrong?

Is bitching about Dream Theater not having stage presence also "wrong" because that has nothing to do with their music?

Should we force all musicians to play from backstage behind a curtain and NEVER reveal their true identities so that no one can judge them based on anything but the music?


----------



## stevexc (Feb 14, 2015)

troyguitar said:


> I'm just talking because that solves everything.
> 
> I realize that you guys aren't actually saying ANYTHING beyond that. You keep talking down to me like my statements are all wrong, so clearly you think that "just talking" is not sufficient. At a minimum we apparently need to be saying the "right" things, no? Can you elaborate on your solution for all of this beyond "just talk about it"? Talking does not feel like it's going anywhere to me. How is this helping?



troy, you're very clearly underlining one important component in how to fix society.

Yes, you are completely correct that talking alone won't solve anything.

The true solution is one part talking and one equal part *listening*. Feel free to try it.

I'll summarize the salient points:

1. I assert that in terms of musical capability, there is no difference between the genders. That is, a woman can achieve equal skill at playing guitar/bass/drums/etc. as a man in general terms.

2. Therefore, female guitarists can and should be presented and judged in the same ways as male guitarists. I'm using "guitarists" here and going forward for brevity.

3. The issue is that they are not - female guitarists, as evidenced by many publications "Hottest Women In Hard Rock" and similar lists, are judged first on looks and then on - actually, that's where a lot of the lists end.

4. The closest thing to a solution is to start a discussion between fans of music about whether or not women and men are treated fairly and similarly, and reach some sort of a consensus.

5. What this article did was describe men the way women are usually described - it ends up sounding immature, childish, and degrading to the men. The "normal" articles are exactly the same, but not seen as immature, childish, or degrading because it is the status quo that we're all used to seeing. Which is a bad thing.





troyguitar said:


> Should we force all musicians to play from backstage behind a curtain and NEVER reveal their true identities so that no one can judge them based on anything but the music?



Is that not what you do when you put a new album from a new band on? Put in the disc, slip on some headphones, and just listen to and judge the music, not letting the marketing colour your judgement?


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## Duosphere (Feb 14, 2015)

stevexc said:


> Is that not what you do when you put an unheard album on? Put in the disc, slip on some headphones, and just listen to and judge the music, not letting the marketing colour your judgement?



I remember the first time Jon Bon Jovi cut his air really short, if I can remember he was releasing Keep The Faith album, a lot of musicians around me who were Bon Jovi fans said they will stop listening to him because of his new hair, they used to say musicians couldn't have short hair, then Satch got bold, Vai cut his too and grunge had a lot of musicians with short hair so everything changed, I heard a lot of people who stopped listening to this or that band because they changed their clothes, some stopped because a metal guitarist exchanged his ESP for a Lespaul.
I always replied to them I never gave a damn about hairs and clothes, what I always cared was music, if I like their music I buy it no matter hairs and clothes.The funny stuff is I live in a hot place and I always played different sports so I always had short hair and I always heard dumb comments about my hair, generally they used to say I couldn't play guitar that good with short hair, I always heard "dude you're freakin' good but...........where's your hair?" 

Oh and thank God no more dressed up like a girl with a ton of make-up and cowboy boots which I never did, I always looked like an ET because I never followed anything famous musicians were doing, to me T-shirts, jeans and nike were/are my choice


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## tacotiklah (Feb 14, 2015)

Mfw I came in this thread to objectify and sexualize hot, hunky man meat and I see it's devolved into another useless debate on feminism that usually ends up spiraling the thread out of control:


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## flint757 (Feb 15, 2015)

tacotiklah said:


> Mfw I came in this thread to objectify and sexualize hot, hunky man meat and I see it's devolved into another useless debate on feminism that usually ends up spiraling the thread out of control:



http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/off-topic/289648-official-hot-guys-metal-sso-edition-thread.html

sans-politics edition.


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## filipe (Feb 15, 2015)

Zakk Wylde Owned it! That face lmao.


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## JohnIce (Feb 16, 2015)

troyguitar said:


> Actually I'm saying that EVERYONE treats women differently than men.
> 
> Who do they use to show women's clothing? Hot women.
> 
> ...



Hey, I don't disagree with you here. But that's because you went way off-topic. We're not talking about women's clothing, makeup or whatever Glamour is. Those are entirely separate industries run by separate people, whereas this thread is and always has been about metal and metal journalism. 

I do think sexism in this specific microcosmos of an industry, is predominantly caused and maintained by men. From record execs, to journalists, to listeners. I never said anything even remotely like "only men are sexist" as you put it.



troyguitar said:


> I'm just talking because that solves everything.
> 
> I realize that you guys aren't actually saying ANYTHING beyond that. You keep talking down to me like my statements are all wrong, so clearly you think that "just talking" is not sufficient. At a minimum we apparently need to be saying the "right" things, no? Can you elaborate on your solution for all of this beyond "just talk about it"? Talking does not feel like it's going anywhere to me. How is this helping?
> 
> ...



I'll start by responding to the questions I numbered.

1) It's not, in my opinion.
2) It's not, in my opinion
3) No, in my opinion
4) No, in my opinion

Other than that, I don't know what to tell you that hasn't already been said by at least 5 people already in a multitude of ways. Stevexc summed it upp very well too. Clearly you're offended by this topic and after wielding all your caps locks, sarcasms and rolleyes-gifs and still accusing the rest of us to be the ones talking down to _you_, it seems like a dead-end. I personally can't come up with any answers to your questions that are more clear or elaborate than the ones already in the thread. Having to say "No, no one said that" in response to every post you make is getting old and if that's gonna be it for 10 more pages in this thread then I probably don't wanna do it.

I suggest you read through the thread once or twice more and if you still don't get it then I urge you to consider yourself smarter than all of us and move on to something worth your time more than babbling idiots like us.


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## Aion (Feb 16, 2015)

troyguitar said:


> I'm just talking because that solves everything.



Okay, I understand why you'd have that reaction, and I don't think the reasons talking is legitimately important have accurately been explained. In part because of semantics. "Talking," does very little, having a conversation can do a lot. Having a conversation implies a give and take, one in which both sides try and gain something from the other person. I believe that people who disagree with me are the best people to learn from in conversation, because their perspective is so different than mine. While I admit that I am unlikely to have a 180 degree shift in my views (and I doubt anyone reading this will either), through a conversation with them I can develop my views to have a wider perspective and be more nuanced by recognizing their concerns and valid points.

But really, in terms of actual effect, why are conversations important? Quite simply it is because one's views on social issues can have real effects. I think one of the things that has been harped on quite a bit by many people I agree with is the idea that women feel less supported and less welcome in metal (and rock music in general) than many of their male counterparts. I will add to that that many women I know are uncomfortable with the fact that they can't always tell if they're being judged as musicians or as women. They want to be judged as musicians, they do not want any special treatment, and the fact that they have to doubt every compliment and criticism they get because of their sex is something that they find disturbing.

Conversations bring up issues like that. And like I said, it has an effect. For me, it has two real effects. The first is, when I see a woman performer (or all women band) I take a step back, close my eyes, and make sure I'm judging the music entirely as music. Obviously I'm also judging presentation (which includes my own personal aesthetic tastes), but if I'm going to say something about their music to them (which I don't always do, but at smaller live shows I generally do talk to the muscians who played) I want to make sure I'm saying something about the _music_ and not bringing anything else into it. I'm not saying, "that guitar solo was good for a girl," I'm just saying, "I liked that guitar solo," because if I liked the guitar solo, there's really no need to bring up the fact that she's a woman. And if I don't like something and there's a reasonable way to say it (after all, I don't make a habit of going up to a band, regardless of the sex of the members and telling them they suck), then I do that to. But I make sure whatever comment I'm making is based on the music, and not what they have between their legs.

The second real effect is I do in fact try and say something that shows support for them as a female musician. It's possible that some might say that's sexist, but if there were less male musicians I would reverse it. It's about context, and a bit about my own experiences and the second hand stories I have. And when I say I show something to support them as women musicians it's generally something simple like, "I wish I saw more women guitarists play here." Most woman musicians know what they're getting into (at least the ones I know), and I have no illusion that they need my support or that I'm the only thing standing between them and the hoard of trolls, but knowing that one of the problems they find themselves facing is a lack of support I want to do my small part in saying, "keep going." Because I'm sure they get enough people who in some form or another make them want to stop playing music entirely because of their sex.

I'm not doing anything mind-boggling, or world changing, but it's my little part in positively contributing to the music scene I am a part of. And the only thing I'll add to this is that it doesn't really matter where you fall politically on this issue. You can think that every single view I have about sexism is wrong, you can be the poster child for MRAs for all I care, but presumably if you're on this forum, involved in this argument, you care about music. You want there to be more good music. You want to encourage musicians to make music. And that's what I'm doing, and I hope that's what you're doing as well. Because if you know the concerns of many female musicians (and obviously they don't all have the exact same views, but there are general trends you can notice), you might want to do something to address them. Just like if they were male, black, white, gay, straight, or any of the many subgroups that exist. When I have a friend who perceives something as a problem, I try and say something comforting, not something that contributes to their perceived problem. In general I think it's a good way to treat people, and I hope you do to.


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## drgordonfreeman (Feb 17, 2015)

OP knew very well what he was doing when he made this thread.
well done, OP, well done. :golfclap: :tipsfedora:


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## troyguitar (Feb 17, 2015)

Yes, *I* am the one who refuses to see any gray areas when I suggest that there might possibly be another contributing factor to the fact that women are underrepresented in metal besides simply "Men are sexist pigs!" 

Maybe, just maybe, women are simply less interested in metal? Noooo, that can't be! Metal shows are sausage fests because women are too scared to come out! They all secretly listen to Meshuggah when we're not looking, but are ashamed to admit it! Riiiiight.

Maybe the fact that men are not "degraded" by metal audiences has to do with the fact that there isn't really a significant female audience. Any other type of music that DOES have a significant female audience is filled with the same "degradation" about how "XYZ artist is SOOO HOT OMG!" all from women.


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## Solodini (Feb 17, 2015)

Everyone else in this thread has acknowledged that there are a multitude of factors at play but also that women face a lot of flack and comments stating "she's not that good, she's just hot" when guys who aren't that good would usually be ignored or given constructive criticism, provided that they're not claiming to be the best guitarist in the world. 

Plenty of people have pointed out here that there may be fewer women famous in metal because there are fewer women in metal generally and that there could be various reasons for that. There are also people here who have taught younger girls guitar, that have shown an interest in metal, but that there is a significant drop off in female involvement past puberty. That could be because women don't want to slog away at a theoretically unlikely dream, or that as soon as they start turning into women, they're the subject of focus on their body, rather than their musicianship. Combine that with metal being a fairly aggressive, macho style of music, as fitted to a lot of male behaviour (human and otherwise) thus potentially attracting a largely male audience, certainly that can seem exclusive of women. When I've witnessed women at metal shows they've usually been leered at by blokes or treated like precious Faberge eggs, incapable of enjoying a pit. Neither is particularly enjoyable. While the protection may be well intended, if they don't feel able to cope with the pit then they'll try to move away from it.

There is enough of a female audience for metal, though; males are still valued based on their ability. Certainly, some with limited musical ability will be valued only based on their looks, but the women who care about musical proficiency, who are interested in the music will usually, based on my experience, still value the person's ability if they're attractive. The male musician's looks may receive some focus in the press, but not usually at the expense of their musical ability. Women's musical ability doesn't even get a mention, in a lot of cases, if she's hot. That goes for a lot of fields but I won't push us into other fields as we've gone OT enough already.

The issue isn't of appreciating looks but of ignoring ability, and ignoring women of ability if they're not conventionally hot.


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## Ibanezsam4 (Feb 17, 2015)

10 pages in and nobody has realized there is a cultural reason for why there is very little female participation in elite musicianship in western countries.

it's because in western society women are expected to be more social from a very young age, whereas men if they choose to exhibit more isolated behavior nobody blinks an eye. 

JohnIce makes a great point about many young girls to mid-teens taking guitar lessons and then there being a drop off. it's because music lessons are seen as something you do to culture your children, and for them to like it for a few years before moving on, guitar especially so because it is seen as the lesser, more approachable, more affordable musical instrument (im trying to refrain from music being used by helicopter parents, but it's difficult for me not to stray in that direction because i saw it so often). 

a lot of people commenting here seem to miss there is a lot of social pressure against playing rock music or guitar, because its seen as a slackers waste of time. However, i feel guys get cut more slack here; an "aimless" young 20something male who spends hours playing guitar is not seen as negatively as it would the the roles were reversed.

In order to be an amazingly elite level guitarist you need to spend a lot of time with the instrument, tweaking setups, experimenting with sounds; time spent away from socialization. Girls are expected by parents and society to socialize, have a bunch a friends, seek out romance, look to college etc.

spending hours in your bedroom, basically acting like a nerd is a lot harder for women because it comes with more judgement. Be a girl at a metal show is cool because it's socialization. Be the girl onstage, while cool to all those at the show, the rest of society calls you an attention whore because you are performing for men. 

the good news is a feel this awful mentality is slowly going away, but its going to take way more time and we'll still see this attitude for decades to come. 

but this also helps explain why female classical musicians get way more support and are more prevalent. classical music is seen as a high art form (along with ballet). To become proficient in classical music requires financial support, skill, and a healthy competitive drive resembling an athlete... these are concepts parents understand a lot better than trying to compose djent ballads on your computer in your bedroom. 

classical music has a legitimacy rock and roll will never have.. hence why it is more socially acceptable for women to participate. 

tl;dr: interest in performing rock music on guitar is seen by society as a waste of time and is heavily stigmatized... girls have different societal expectations that i feel compound the above stigma even further. 

i hope i made sense, i wrote this between writing other things and i may have wandered in my thoughts.


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## canuck brian (Feb 17, 2015)

Women as a whole are treated very differently from men based on their appearance. This is a proven fact and it's prevalent in ANY industry. It's just more obvious in some industries than others because of a level of acceptance in stupid behavior. Take a look at Sarah Longfield's videos where she's ripping up a storm and the first 10 comments are "uhuhuhuhhuh booooobzzzz" "i'd tap that...juhuhuhuhuhuh" or anything else you can think fat, stupid trolls covered in acne could come up with. Women are almost immediately dismissed using their body as a selling point before they've played the first note. Don't get pissed off when they decide to exploit that. 

Women high up in companies (executives, directors etc) are expected to come in every day looking like a million bucks. Period. There's no grey area on that at all. I've seen a lot in 20 years of working in the industry and being in relationships with women in the industry. If a women shows up with a slightly wrinkly dress and didn't have enough to time to do her makeup, it's almost guaranteed that she's going to have people talking shit behind her back about her looks. It doesnt' matter that she just closed over 20 million in business as of that day, her hair looks terrible. 

Men are not subject to this level of scrutiny. 

In metal, women have been predominantly portrayed as objects - girls dancing around, slave girls, whatever you want to call it. Women being INTO metal is still kinda rare (but odd in Toronto where some brutal DM shows are a 50/50 split), but it's definitely becoming more prevalent. Unfortunately there are still mouthbreathers who are "uhhhh...woman at metal show in tight clothes..dick hard... ughhhh...". I've seen Alyssa from Arch Enemy when she was in the Agonist get repeated statements from idiots in the crowd about how they wanted to have sex with her, etc etc.

I've read some articles where women complain about their treatment in the metal scene and you shouldn't have to add an asterisk beside it saying "while they're dressed sexy". They're allowed to dress any damn way they want. It's up to the rest of the people at the show to not act like neadrathal dipshits towards them. I'd love to see the amount of online bitching if every attractive female at a show was actually wearing XXL shirts and baggy pants instead of say ... skintight jeans, boots and a tight shirt. The amount of "wahhhhhh, no hot chicks at Tool...wahhhhhh" would be huge and it would just prove that women will be objectified regardless of what they're wearing and the expectation (remember the businesswomen?) to wear certain attire to "belong" would still be in place.

I've never understood the whole "Arch Enemy is popular because they have a woman singer." I got into them with Angela in the band without even knowing that Angela WAS in the band. Regardless though, incredibly attractive girl belting out huge screams and being metal as hell is definitely a selling point. SO WHAT?!?? Don't listen to them if you don't like them or you're just that bitter that they don't deserve to be headlining the tour instead of the obscure, polyrhythmic djentshitcore band with 20 music degrees between the 4 members that you're such a fan of. Arch Enemy puts on a great show and their female singer is a part of the show and it sells. Just because a woman gets to use the fact that she's a woman as part of the show doesn't give anyone the right to immediately treat her like a piece of meat and guys should get it thru their goddamn heads that doing so makes them assholes.


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## Louis Cypher (Feb 17, 2015)

^
This. In fcuking spade fulls


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## Ibanezsam4 (Feb 17, 2015)

troyguitar said:


> Maybe the fact that men are not "degraded" by metal audiences has to do with the fact that there isn't really a significant female audience. Any other type of music that DOES have a significant female audience is filled with the same "degradation" about how "XYZ artist is SOOO HOT OMG!" all from women.





Solodini said:


> Combine that with metal being a fairly aggressive, macho style of music, as fitted to a lot of male behaviour (human and otherwise) thus potentially attracting a largely male audience, certainly that can seem exclusive of women.



you guys are hitting all the right notes on both sides of the spectrum. Metal is a counter-culture movement. Despite what marketing exists inside of it, the whole musical style is a giant middle finger to mainstream style and convention... even the crabcore bullshit. 

but therein lies its mostly male appeal. Ask any advertising buff from the 1960s on, and they will tell you the best way to grow revenues is to appeal to a female audience.. greatest American example is currently the NFL who are making many different marketing pitches to appeal to 25-30 year old women to grow revenues. 

so the lesson is women drive media markets and dollars, now take an art form which doesn't give a shit and is basically channeled aggression, and you have already eliminated all of the possible media messaging practices that drive key demographics (women from late teens to early 30s) to the art form. 

metal is destined to be a sausage fest simply because of its nature. To call the genre sexist is a misnomer, when it is the rest of society which has created the environment in which metal only appeals to men. 

just to cover my ass here, im sure there are several examples of gratuitous manly metal which is derogatory to women, i don't listen to it so it's not on my radar... my point is i think i woman can connect to the aggression of Lamb of God's "Laid to Rest" just as well as i can. 

it takes a certain kind of woman to ignore all mainstream cultural messages to find this music appealing (not putting down non-metal women at all.. im marrying one after all). but the ones that do deserve tons of respect. 

that being said, the more you get away from the Mayhemfest brand of mainstream metal the better the concert culture becomes. You're always going to find horror stories when you observe what happens at 5 Finger Deathpunch concerts because that music is aimed at the lowest common denominator. 

the frontwomen of F*ck the Facts and Landmine Marathon always were recipients of total respect whenever i saw them live


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