# How do i know what scale play over the chord ?



## ALAN_C (Dec 11, 2011)

I just starting learn music theory . Now i feeling coufused about HOW to use scale to play over chord .

Example , i play in G Major , if i soloing in G chord . Actually , which scale 

and i should use to play over it ? 

Cheers !


----------



## brutalwizard (Dec 12, 2011)

Carl Fischer Guitar Grimoire Book and more Guitar Instruction at GuitarCenter.com.

that is one of the best ways to know.

also the way i learned


----------



## mikemueller2112 (Dec 12, 2011)

Well, first step would be to look at the notes in a G Major chord.

G (root) - B (Major 3rd) - D (Perfect 5th)

Then you can take a look at the G Major scale

G (root) - A (Major 2nd) - B (Major 3rd) - C (Perfect 4th) - D (Perfect 5th) - E (Major 6th) - F# (Major 7th)

Easy way to make a solo sound "good" would be to really highlight the chord notes (1-M3-P5), and use the other notes as "transitional" tones. Essentially, you could play any note in this scale, and it's not going to sound wrong, but depending on which notes you highlight/emphasize, you'll have more control over the sound you want.

You could use a Major Pentatonic scale, which essentially a Major scale, just missing the Perfect 4th and Major 7th:

G (root) - A (Major 2nd) - B (Major 3rd) - D (Perfect 5th) - E (Major 6th)

You could also get into playing different modes, you would want to play ones based in a Major key (Lydian or Mixolydian).

G Lydian:

G (root) - A (Major 2nd) - B (Major 3rd) - C# (Augmented 4th) - D (Perfect 5th) - E (Major 6th) - F# (Major 7th)

G Mixolydian:

G (root) - A (Major 2nd) - B (Major 3rd) - C (Perfect 4th) - D (Perfect 5th) - E (Major 6th) - F# (minor 7th)


----------



## ALAN_C (Dec 12, 2011)

mikemueller2112 said:


> Well, first step would be to look at the notes in a G Major chord.
> 
> G (root) - B (Major 3rd) - D (Perfect 5th)
> 
> ...


 Thanks!! 
If i play other chords , is it use the same way to approach ?
Also , i know the G Major = E minor . Whatever i playing in G Major or E Minor Key , Also same ? Or will have different approach on choosing scale .


----------



## mikemueller2112 (Dec 12, 2011)

ALAN_C said:


> Thanks!!
> If i play other chords , is it use the same way to approach ?
> Also , i know the G Major = E minor . Whatever i playing in G Major or E Minor Key , Also same ? Or will have different approach on choosing scale .



Well yeah you could play the same scales, but you will want to emphasize different notes. E minor chord consists of E (root) - G (minor 3rd) - B (Perfect 5th), so each of these notes lie within the G Major and E minor scales. Of course, like Major scale over the Major chord, all of the notes will work and "fit", some notes will sound better and others can be used as transitional/suspended tones. E minor scale just starts at the 6th note of the G Major scale, as it sounds like you already know.


----------



## ALAN_C (Dec 12, 2011)

mikemueller2112 said:


> Well yeah you could play the same scales, but you will want to emphasize different notes. E minor chord consists of E (root) - G (minor 3rd) - B (Perfect 5th), so each of these notes lie within the G Major and E minor scales. Of course, like Major scale over the Major chord, all of the notes will work and "fit", some notes will sound better and others can be used as transitional/suspended tones. E minor scale just starts at the 6th note of the G Major scale, as it sounds like you already know.


 Really thanks , If i ask you one more questions , will it bother you ? Because i'm too stupid in music theory haha 

It's about mode , When i playing in G Major Key(G A B C D E F#) , the second mode will be Dorian ( 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7) , Do i need to flat the 3rd and 7th note to play over the D chord ? Or Just play the mode on the root D , then just play D E F# G A B C notes ?

Many many thanks!


----------



## mikemueller2112 (Dec 12, 2011)

ALAN_C said:


> Really thanks , If i ask you one more questions , will it bother you ? Because i'm too stupid in music theory haha
> 
> It's about mode , When i playing in G Major Key(G A B C D E F#) , the second mode will be Dorian ( 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7) , Do i need to flat the 3rd and 7th note to play over the D chord ? Or Just play the mode on the root D , then just play D E F# G A B C notes ?
> 
> Many many thanks!



Well I'm not sure if I'm answering this directly or not, so I'll try to explain it best I can, and hopefully answer your question in doing so.

The Dorian mode is a minor mode. A *minor *triad (root - minor 3rd - Perfect 5th) will work over this mode, as all the notes lie within the mode itself. You wouldn't want to use a G Dorian over a G Major chord, because of the minor 3rd in Dorian, and a Major 3rd in G Major chord. It would result in your playing a B-flat over the chord which has a B in it. This will create dissonance.

D-Dorian consists of:

D (root) - E (Major 2nd) - F (minor 3rd) - G (Perfect 4th) - A (Perfect 5th) - B (Major 6th) - C (minor 7th)

The same notes as the C Major scale (Ionian)

A-Dorian is enharmonic to the G Major scale (Ionian), FYI. The notes you listed, in that sequence, would be the D *Mixolydian *mode, the fifth mode of a major scale:

D (root) - E (Major 2nd) - F# (Major 3rd) - G (Perfect 4th) - A (Perfect 5th) - B (Major 6th) - C (minor 7th)

Not sure if I answered your question or not, wasn't quite sure what you were asking.


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (Dec 12, 2011)

Looking at all these letters is making me dizzy. 

This whole chord-scale thing is a concept that puts the cart before the horse, in my opinion. The use of scales, in terms of modern tonal harmony, is still to outline the chord and therefore to feature the chord tones. To illustrate, let's take a simple example.







I had some more metal-looking fonts at one point, but that was the best I could find when drawing this thing up. Anyway, this is pretty self-explanatory: the key at the top left tells you how I've color coded the members of each chord. I'm not going beyond the seventh, since that will only result in poppycock and bickering. Take a look at this melody - it's practically all chord tones. The first four notes lead right up to a big fat third. The only notes that aren't chord tones lead into chord tones.

The key of this song is E minor, so let's examine what's going on, scale-wise. Notice that we're not using a different scale for every chord, it's all E minor. Furthermore, look at the melodic patterns. In the first two lines, those ascending quarter notes are E F# G, D E F#, C D E, B C# D#. This whole thing is just a bunch of little three-note fragments of the E minor scale. Now, if you've been paying attention, you'll notice that C# and D# aren't a part of E minor (E F# G A B C D). What's the deal with that? The answer is that it's a part of the E melodic minor scale (E F# G A B C# D#). B7 contains a D# and having BCD or B C D# there would sound inappropriate, so the C is raised to C#. This is the song, so you can hear all of this in context:



And they throw a picardy third in at the end there. 

What I'm getting at is this: figure out what your chord tones are, and build figures around them and leading up to them. Chord-scale pairings only give you half of the story, and chord tones are where it is now, was then, and always will be at. Well, maybe not always, but we're certainly not shunning them at any frantic pace. Hal Galper gives the same spiel; this won't be the first time I've posted this video on this board, and I doubt it will be the last:




By the way, here's the clean version of that score:
http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt274/Schecterwhore/Music Theory/AutumnLeaves.jpg

And with lower resolution:
http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt274/Schecterwhore/Music Theory/AutumnLeaves_150.jpg


----------



## Cabinet (Dec 12, 2011)

Now for the real question, why does the title of that lead sheet look like something out of Goosebumps


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (Dec 12, 2011)

Because I fucking hate jazz fonts.


----------



## Hollowway (Dec 12, 2011)

SchecterWhore, thanks for that post. That was super informative. And didn't go over my head this time. 

But why would you call this E minor as opposed to G major? I figured with that ii V I opening we'd be in pretty solid G major territory.

Edit: Of course now I see that it does have a ii V i for the E minor key as well, so now I'm thoroughly confused.


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (Dec 12, 2011)

Good question, Holloway. *I JUST DO.* Nah, it's actually fairly formal. The A section is a sixteen-measure parallel period, built of two eight-measure phrases. Those eight-measure phrases can be broken up further into smaller four-measure units. Sing the first system. Sound complete to you? I thought not - once you have that motive do its thing twice, it sets up some sort of expectation. So, even though we have a ii V I onto G, that's not our tonic. We only hear it as half of something up to that point. You can also look at it by those structural tones. Look at the lowest note in that motive as it occurs in measures 1 (pickup), 3, 5, and 7. You get E D C B. If it were just E D, that doesn't seem so much a pattern as it does a coincidence. Once again, it sets up the expectation of complementary symmetry. We hear the pattern twice, we know something's up. We hear it twice again, and we know what that something was. In this case, it turns out to be a fairly structural element of E minor - a scalar descent to the dominant, B. Really, though, if you can hear the big cadences, you'll never have a problem with key. Harmony is much more than chords and scales - it's how often something happens, when it happens, how it happens, what precedes it and what succeeds it. In the case of Autumn Leaves, if we declared that we were in the key of G major by the third chord, we would have effectively blown our load before even hearing the whole phrase.


----------



## ALAN_C (Dec 12, 2011)

SchecterWhore , Thank for answer me ! Haha , sorry for making you dizzy , because my english not really good , so .. haha

I think the first thing need to do is learn about every chords tone first .


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (Dec 12, 2011)

ALAN_C said:


> SchecterWhore , Thank for answer me ! Haha , sorry for making you dizzy , because my english not really good , so .. haha



Not a problem, dude. Your English is pretty good. I just hope i didn't confuse you. 



> I think the first thing need to do is learn about every chords tone first .


----------



## Overtone (Dec 13, 2011)

Don't only think of it in terms of theory. You have been listening to music a long time, and the way you imagine the music is important too. By now you are seeing that you have many choices of what scale to play, so it's not as simple as "I have a ____ chord so I'll play the ____ scale." Try to spend time hearing the melodies you want to play. Sing them. Learn to play what you are singing. Play just one note over the chord and see how you like the way that note goes with the chord. Now try a different note. Do it with another note, etc.. Now figure out which one of the scales that are supposed to work actually give you that sound. Intuitively sometimes your mind knows what kind of sound it wants. Think of the theory side more as a way to figure out what your options are, but don't rely on it to choose which option is the best one... use your ears for that.

Just to relate it to the example you gave of G Major. It's correct that you can do anything in the G major key, or E minor. You could also try G lydian, G mixolydian, G Lydian Dominant, G Phrygian Dominant, G major pentatonic. That's a lot of scales! So maybe the first thing to think about is that the song itself is in G major. If you just want to stay within the feel of the key, you stay in G major. But maybe you want to create some contrast and make it sound different over that particular G chord. That's where you can use your ears to see which one of the scale choices really work for you. You can try playing C# to see if you like the augmented 4th sound. If you do, then you can start to see whether Lydian or Lydian Dominant give you the kind of sound you are looking for. Or maybe you just know you want a dominant 7 (F), then you can see whether Lydian Dominant or Mixolydian sounds right.


----------



## Grimbold (Jan 2, 2012)

brutalwizard said:


> Carl Fischer Guitar Grimoire Book and more Guitar Instruction at GuitarCenter.com.
> 
> that is one of the best ways to know.
> 
> also the way i learned


this

gosk.com also has some great examples!


----------



## ALAN_C (Jan 2, 2012)

Overtone said:


> Don't only think of it in terms of theory. You have been listening to music a long time, and the way you imagine the music is important too. By now you are seeing that you have many choices of what scale to play, so it's not as simple as "I have a ____ chord so I'll play the ____ scale." Try to spend time hearing the melodies you want to play. Sing them. Learn to play what you are singing. Play just one note over the chord and see how you like the way that note goes with the chord. Now try a different note. Do it with another note, etc.. Now figure out which one of the scales that are supposed to work actually give you that sound. Intuitively sometimes your mind knows what kind of sound it wants. Think of the theory side more as a way to figure out what your options are, but don't rely on it to choose which option is the best one... use your ears for that.
> 
> Just to relate it to the example you gave of G Major. It's correct that you can do anything in the G major key, or E minor. You could also try G lydian, G mixolydian, G Lydian Dominant, G Phrygian Dominant, G major pentatonic. That's a lot of scales! So maybe the first thing to think about is that the song itself is in G major. If you just want to stay within the feel of the key, you stay in G major. But maybe you want to create some contrast and make it sound different over that particular G chord. That's where you can use your ears to see which one of the scale choices really work for you. You can try playing C# to see if you like the augmented 4th sound. If you do, then you can start to see whether Lydian or Lydian Dominant give you the kind of sound you are looking for. Or maybe you just know you want a dominant 7 (F), then you can see whether Lydian Dominant or Mixolydian sounds right.


 Thanks!! Very very great post ! I think i should correct my concept first , then start it again ! Thank you very much !


----------



## rchrd_le (Jan 3, 2012)

brutalwizard said:


> Carl Fischer Guitar Grimoire Book and more Guitar Instruction at GuitarCenter.com.
> 
> that is one of the best ways to know.
> 
> also the way i learned



I'm considering buying this, is it in tabs?


----------



## SirMyghin (Jan 3, 2012)

The guitar grimoire is just a cookie cutter 'this mode played here looks like this' over and over again for pages. The whole thing could be summarized in 5 pages, explaining how the stuff actually works. Waste of paper, wouldn't spend your money on it. If you bother to learn some theory, you will never need it.


----------



## Trespass (Jan 3, 2012)

You can play anything over anything. It's all color and context. 3rds and 7ths on downbeats as Shectorwhore illuminated above are your "sweet" notes, especially if you voice lead/approach them chromatically.

That being said, highlighting those different colors will sound much more interesting than just playing G major over a G chord.

For example, playing Bm pentatonic or F#m pentatonic over G will really highlight the extensions (9th, #11th, 13th). Implies a major13 #11.

If it's just a vanilla G chord, you could play things from different chord families and superimpose that on top. You would have to play it confidently to make sound "right". The above example is from the major 7th family, but you could go into the dominant family for some interesting sounds.

Try a Dm7b5 arpeggio over the G for a G7b9 sound, which is neat.


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (Jan 4, 2012)

Yeah, don't buy the Guitar Grimoire. I very quickly outgrew the book without reading more than a few pages. Before I had any real theory under my belt, it was good for finding a few shapes that I liked, but I learned how to construct a scale in school, looked back at the Grimoire for some further information, and found that the ideas within it were entirely eclipsed by a first semester harmony class.


----------

