# I Purchased Ryan Shuck LACS 7 String. Might Be Stolen!?!?... Help!!!



## fellsal88 (May 6, 2014)

So I purchased Ryan shuck custom LACS 7 string for $7,110.36 on March 20th 2014 and I received it on April 20th 2014. This guitar was awesome. It is amazing from bottom to top with all lights, the paint job, the shape. I couldn't be happier owning a guitar that my childhood hero use to own. It was so cool that even my girlfriend had to Instagram it lol. Then.. That's when I found out it might be stolen. My girlfriend follows Ryan on Instagram, and she tagged him when she posted about the guitar. Here's a pictures of that at the bottom.


*Screen Shot of Instagram Conversation. *





After that, I became immediately frighten of the situation because I though I purchased 7k worth of stolen property. If not stolen then maybe fake. I began to make it a point to contact Ryan Shuck by messaging him on Instagram and Facebook. Even calling his restaurant that he's the owner of in Costa Mesa California. The manager at the time said "ill relay the message to Ryan and if he decides to call you. He will call and I got things to do, so don't call this restaurant with that kind of business again"

*The Letter to Ryan Shuck From My Girlfriend. *

Dear Ryan Shuck, 

My boyfriend Sal has been a huge fan of yours since he started listening to Orgy when he was in a elementary school and you've been his biggest inspiration for wanting to start playing guitar when he was little. He was so excited to see that the Sculpted Ibanez LACS owned by you was being sold by a big known guitar store in Poland, Guitar-Max. He saved over the past few years to finally own the guitar once used by his favorite guitarist. He purchased it from the Guitar-Max website (guitar-max.eu) for $7,000 USD, and seeing that Guitar Max was a quite reputable store in Poland that many big bands have endorsed, my boyfriend took the plunge and purchased the guitar. The website and representatives of the store said that the Ibanez LACS was your personal guitar that was used in Orgy, hence why my boyfriend bought it. However when you commented on my picture on Instagram saying that you don't remember selling the guitar, it drew huge concern to us, that either the guitar was stolen and sold and the Ibanez serial number was not reported stolen, or that the guitar is not authentic and that this huge guitar store just passed off a fake. I'm writing to you so to get things cleared up, to make sure it was not stolen or replicated, my boyfriend is contacting the store representatives of Guitar-Max and trying to get to the bottom of things and how they received the guitar to sell. My boyfriend works at a guitar store himself and knows the importance of checking serial numbers to insure guitars are not stolen or replicated and passed off as real, and why it is important to place police holds on all items that come in before being sold. That's why this particular Ibanez LACS that was advertised as the "Ryan Shuck Ibanez LACS" (previously owned by you) and had been up on the internet on this website for several years to be sold didn't raise any red flags to us. 

This is the link to where he bought it 
Ibanez LACS 7 String Ryan Shuck - LA Custom Shop - Guitar-Max Music Store

Please, if you can contact us back so things can be sorted out in the case that if it was stolen and sold, and we can take the right steps to getting it back to you, that would be greatly appreciated. 

Sincerely, 
Aileen and Sal



Now it may seem I'm blowing the situation out of proportion but, when PayPal told me legal action could be taken against if one of 2 things happened.

1) if purchased the property and I knew it was stolen.

2) I found out later the property was stolen and i did nothing to notify the authority's or the original owner. At this point is considered "harboring stolen property" 

Apparently in the state of California anything over $1,000 of stolen property is considered "grand theft"

I contacted the store in Poland where I purchased the guitar that once told me the guitar was purchased directly from Ryan. They are now claiming that the guitar was purchased on eBay who could possibly be Ryan.

So provided you guys with as much information I possibly can. What do you guys is the right decision.

*P.S. sorry for the spelling errors and punctuation errors. I wrote this on my 30 minute lunch break at work on a Iphone. 
*


*Pictures of Ryan Shuck LACS 7 String.*


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## evilsaint (May 6, 2014)

Who is Ryan Shuck ?


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## Noxon (May 6, 2014)

I believe he was/is the guitar player from Orgy.


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## SpaceDock (May 6, 2014)

^ yup.... If the guitar shop sold you the guitar without knowing that it was stolen, hopefully they will let you return it. Either that or maybe Ryan will be cool with you ending up with it. 

I understand the sentimental value, but seriously 7k for that!!!!!!!!!


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## poopyalligator (May 6, 2014)

Man that really sucks. Hope this thing clears up for you. That is an amazing guitar.


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## Herrick (May 6, 2014)

fellsal88 said:


> What do you guys is the right decision.


 
You're already doing the right thing: trying to find out if the guitar was really stolen. Good luck, mang


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## ikarus (May 6, 2014)

SpaceDock said:


> I understand the sentimental value, but seriously 7k for that!!!!!!!!!



My thoughts exactly! I remember the thread where op complained about not having enough funds for eduaction...


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## technomancer (May 6, 2014)

Legally you need to contact Ryan and find out if it was stolen from him. If so you are legally obligated to return it if he wants it back. Otherwise, as you pointed out, you have committed a felony.

From your standpoint it sucks as you're out the guitar and likely the money since they're in Poland, but if there's a police report for it getting stolen you're pretty much screwed.


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## Rick (May 6, 2014)

$7K?????????????

Seriously, by contacting him, you're off to a good start, hopefully a peaceful resolution can be found here.


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## Xaios (May 6, 2014)

Damn. I hope it all works out for the best.


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## Scruffy1012 (May 6, 2014)

Hit up the dealer and try and sort it out, verify if it was stolen or not with the band/guitarist. Wasn't this band trying to fund an album before ? he might have sold it then for funds and forgotten about it, or he might be up to some dodgeyness (wouldn't be suprised).


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## Señor Voorhees (May 6, 2014)

I'm not the most important of people around here, but I'd like to request people to stop exclaiming that the dude spent $7k on the guitar. Obviously the guitar is worth that much to OP, and we shouldn't question that.

Also, I think you're well on your way to being in the clear. Worst case scenario, you're making an effort to contact the potential victim which sees you cleared of the "I found out later the property was stolen and i did nothing to notify the authority's or the original owner. At this point is considered "harboring stolen property"" thing. You definitely need to make your best efforts to get into contact with him, or perhaps even the authorities if you think they'd have a better chance at contacting him. 

I'd imagine that if it is stolen, you're going to have to jump through some hoops to get your cash back from the place you bought it from, but I'm hoping it'll be doable. The fact that you're making an effort to contact the potential victim is a very good thing though, and it's probably the best thing you could have done.


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## ZXIIIT (May 6, 2014)

That's odd.

That LACS has been for sale since 2013 (or earlier) at Guitar-Max.

Did Ryan just find out about it also?

Hope it get's cleared up

EDIT: It actually belonged to nikt's friend (as posted on here way back in 2008) before Guitar-Max got it?
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/se...-looking-odd-guitar-used-korn-guitarists.html


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## Rev2010 (May 6, 2014)

I dunno man, were you sure the store was completely reputable before you bought it? Sending $7000 to a store halfway across the world for a guitar I can't see in person first is fairly risky. I hope it all works out man. To lose that much cash either on a stolen or fake guitar is a huge upsetting loss. 

*edit - sorry, didn't know about the store Guitar Max till now. Anyhow, best of luck man, you're definitely taking the right steps at this point. 

Rev.


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## PBGas (May 6, 2014)

I probably would not have broadcasted this on a public forum for your own legal protection. I see what you are doing and trying to make sure that this was not stolen property and of course that is the right thing to do. I get how it happened and really, your girlfriend is the one who started all of this by posting it up in the first place. 

I hope this comes to a resolution for you because this is an instrument that you would obviously cherish and want to keep. 

Let's just hope Smuck is not being a "Shmuck" and forgot that he perhaps sold it?


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## Lorcan Ward (May 6, 2014)

Zombie13 said:


> EDIT: It actually belonged to nikt's friend (as posted on here way back in 2008) before Guitar-Max got it?
> http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/se...-looking-odd-guitar-used-korn-guitarists.html



So a friend of that guy has owned it since 2008.

How did Ryan not notice it gone for 6 years +


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## Señor Voorhees (May 6, 2014)

Lorcan Ward said:


> So a friend of that guy has owned it since 2008.
> 
> How did Ryan not notice it gone for 6 years +



Hence where it being a "fake" may come into play. It's a shame it's so difficult to get a hold of someone in a situation like this, since I'm betting a quick chat with the guy would clear things up. Whether or not that means finding out it's stolen, fake, or something the guy actually sold.


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## DISTORT6 (May 6, 2014)

You're an honorable man. 
Good for you for trying to do the right thing.


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## Rev2010 (May 6, 2014)

If the guitar is stolen and he bought it he's not instantly guilty of being a criminal. Why is anyone making it like he could possibly be in legal trouble??? He is trying to talk with Ryan to find out what the story is which is the proper action to take. 


Rev.


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## ZXIIIT (May 6, 2014)

PBGas said:


> Let's just hope Smuck is not being a "Shmuck" and forgot that he perhaps sold it?



Last name fail


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## Jzbass25 (May 6, 2014)

Lorcan Ward said:


> So a friend of that guy has owned it since 2008.
> 
> How did Ryan not notice it gone for 6 years +



From his comment, "I need to check my stock" I bet he has some sort of storage unit that might have gotten broken into. Six years seems like a long-ass time though, I almost hope OP gets to keep it so that it doesn't just sit around and rot.


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## MoshJosh (May 6, 2014)

I'd say you are already doing the right thing by Contacting Ryan.


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## TheWarAgainstTime (May 7, 2014)

You're definitely doing the right thing by trying to contact him. 

I don't think it's a fake. No way anyone just looking to scam somebody like you would go through the time, trouble and likely the money to source the bridge on that guitar (not to mention the LED inlays). Seriously, the Lo-Pro 7 equivalent to the EdgeIII FX would be worth its weight in gold as far as I'm concerned


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## Vrollin (May 7, 2014)

Just because he doesn't remember selling it, does't mean he didn't. If we are in fact talking not looking at the guitar for 6 years there's a chance that selling it might not ring a bell. Shit, the guys had to publicly fund their next album via donations, he probably sold heaps of gear in need of money over the years and wouldn't remember it all....


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## Forkface (May 7, 2014)

I don't think you're in legal trouble, but if it was indeed stolen then you're in for a roller coaster of a ride trying to get your money back.

I sincerely hope this works out for you, and you are definitely on the right track by contacting this Ryan guy and finding out whats up.


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## s4tch (May 7, 2014)

This store has some insane prices. A JPM100 P1 for around $6000?! Come on.

As far as I see it, it's the store that should be obliged to prove the origin of the guitar they sold.


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## downburst82 (May 7, 2014)

Maybe he forgot to pay for his storage locker? happens all the time to people....apparently there is a show or two about it


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## Daf57 (May 7, 2014)

I believe you are going about this the best you can. Just hang in there and I'm sure it will be resolved. 

Please keep us updated on this! This is very interesting on several levels.


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## ZeroS1gnol (May 7, 2014)

I believe this will all end well for the OP. The guitar showed up in Poland in 2008 apparently. If it were stolen from let's say, a storage unit, there must be signs of a break in. If there are not, how is Shuck going to prove it got stolen? I simply reject to believe Shuck stored his guitar at least 6 years ago without ever checking it afterwards.


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## brutalwizard (May 7, 2014)

The suspense of this thread is killing me. OP Deliver news on whats going on. Like others have said before If this dude hasn't noticed a guitar missing in 6+ years, How am i to believe his is to remember to pay a storage company monthly or yearly.

And he says band storage. I am willing to bet There seemingly drugaddict steve-o looking vocalist sold it. He is the only remaining member of that band from my understanding after a quick google search.


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## GBH14 (May 7, 2014)

All seems a bit strange to me...

Your definitely doing the right thing in contacting him to find out what's going on, but if it has been on that site for sale for at least 2 years would you not think he would have realised it was already stolen? I mean I know the guy is going to have some crazy amount of guitars, but he was instantly able to recognise it as being the same as his guitar so surely he would have either played it or seen it within those 2 years? 

Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know, but sounds strange that you would store your whole bands equipment in a storage unit and not once check on it or the contents in a number of years.


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## Suho (May 7, 2014)

If you used paypal, and are worried it is a fake, open a dispute before the window closes. That will put the burden on the store to respond with hopefully a little more proof and maybe secure a refund if it is needed.


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## PBGas (May 7, 2014)

Zombie13 said:


> Last name fail



True. Sorry about that. Not exactly familiar with him or his playing.


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## SDMFVan (May 7, 2014)

If the guitar has truly been out of his possession for 6+ years and he can't produce a police report showing it, he's going to be hard pressed to get it back.


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## sawtoothscream (May 7, 2014)

Hope things work out.


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## mnemonic (May 7, 2014)

What state is Ryan Shuck in? If he owns a restaurant in costa mesa, CA, I'm guessing he lives in CA. Isn't the statute of limitations for receiving stolen property 3 years? If so, He can't be arrested for having the guitar. Everyone simmer down.

Curious what the outcome is though, not gonna lie, sometimes I come here just for the luthier drama and other stories. Its like manly soap operas.


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## Les (May 7, 2014)

mnemonic said:


> What state is Ryan Shuck in? If he owns a restaurant in costa mesa, CA, I'm guessing he lives in CA. Isn't the statute of limitations for receiving stolen property 3 years? If so, He can't be arrested for having the guitar. Everyone simmer down.
> 
> Curious what the outcome is though, not gonna lie, sometimes I come here just for the luthier drama and other stories. Its like manly soap operas.



Yup! It's been way too long... Although it sounds like the kind of guy that if Ryan wanted it back he would hand it over. And i hope that Ryan is the kind of guy that would let OP keep it.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (May 7, 2014)

You guys that are talking about arrest realize that with the distances and the legal jurisdictions involved , the chances of putting someone you KNOW and can PROVE is guilty away is still practically impossible these days. 

Law enforcement over the internet isnt as cut and dry as you make it.

So #1, cool guitar, but your nuts for paying 7k for it , but either way,
2# your doing what you can to make it right
and #3, if Ryan gives you shit and makes a stink over a guitar of his that you paid 7k for knowing your a big fan, and its a guitar he obviously doesnt even know if he owns(so he doesnt use it), the hes a dick.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (May 7, 2014)

Oh, and I dont think Ryan was involved in the new orgy at all. Hes doing Julien K


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## BrailleDecibel (May 7, 2014)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> Oh, and I dont think Ryan was involved in the new orgy at all. Hes doing Julien K



I was just gonna post this, the new Orgy consists of Jay Gordon and central casting. 


Best of luck with getting this situation resolved OP, sounds pretty hairy indeed. Hopefully Ryan is down with letting you keep it, you really had to go through a lot, and are now going through more, to have that thing.


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## nikt (May 7, 2014)

Zombie13 said:


> That's odd.
> 
> That LACS has been for sale since 2013 (or earlier) at Guitar-Max.
> 
> ...



The person who bought it in 2008 is the owner of the Guitar-Max store so it was in his hands for last 6 years.

That LACS was bought on ebay, I found it and told my friend that it's worth the price and it's a very rare piece (FX Edge 7, Custom Dimarzio pickup, flipflop paint, sculpted body like on Tagima Kiko Loureiro sigs). 

You are nuts for putting 7k for that guitar. It's not Vai Ibanez FLO or EVO to cost that much.

Anyway, it's a great, solid instrument. My buddy Domin (ex- Lost Soul, now Vedonist) liked it a lot too. He even has a custom Kamecki right now based on this LACS.












Vedonist - Vulture of War (OFFICIAL VIDEO) - YouTube


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## Konfyouzd (May 7, 2014)

evilsaint said:


> Who is Ryan Shuck ?



He doesn't djent


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## teamSKDM (May 7, 2014)

Please tell me you have some form of receipt from the guitar store?


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## Konfyouzd (May 7, 2014)

I just have that "Fiction" song stuck in my head.


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## ZXIIIT (May 7, 2014)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> Oh, and I dont think Ryan was involved in the new orgy at all. Hes doing Julien K



Jay Gordon revived the band and he's the sole original member, we played with them recently and they sounded pretty good.


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## Lickers (May 7, 2014)

teamSKDM said:


> Please tell me you have some form of receipt from the guitar store?


 
For 7k, I'd expect the receipt to be tattooed onto Jessica Biel's ass...

I'm sure this will work in favour of the OP. He's lucky to have bought it from a store - not some privateer chancer with next to no chance of comeback. In addition, it's been pretty well documented that the store have had it for some time.

I'm not too sure what the prevailing laws are in the country that sold it, but in the UK, the onus lies with the retailer - especially in the first 6 months from the date of sale.
If worst comes to worst and it proves to be stolen/sold under misrepresentation, a refund should be provided without too much fuss. Given how small the world becomes thanks to the internet, their business could rapidly become worthless.


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## fellsal88 (May 7, 2014)

Sorry for the lack of updates guys. i had to drive to pick up my girlfriend at the airport last night. i can't believe the amazing support i have been receiving from the forum in my current sitauation.

So the situation has not advanced. i have yet to hear from ryan, even though i messaged him a day ago. Also yes i did pay 7K for the guitar. Orgy to me has been a huge inspiration. they were the first CD i ever bough, when i was only 10 with my hard earned chore money lol. i bough this guitar because it held a high sentimental value to my childhood. lately I've been looking at the guitar differently. mainly because in fear i might be stolen. I've been planning on sending it back to the store where i purchased it from.

Because lets face it. Nobody wants they're chile hero to accuse them of stealing there property lol. I don't ever want to meet the guy and he says "rant you the asshole who has my guitar"

so in that case. I'm leaning more on sending it back.


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## Shawn (May 7, 2014)

That's a pretty cool looking guitar. I saw Orgy open for Incubus back in '99 and he had his white LACS...I had no idea he had this model. Hope everything works out.


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## Xaios (May 7, 2014)

Still hoping everything works out for the best. However...


I can't help but laugh at the mental image of a 10 year old kid coming home to mom and dad, and excitedly proclaiming "Look, I bought an Orgy album!"


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## SpaceDock (May 7, 2014)

^ so I was into Orgy back in the 90s and I had a CandyAss shirt that my mom was not thrilled about. 

I went to one of their shows at the Fillmore where they opened for Love and Rockets, there were totally some old creeper guys that thought they bought tickets for an orgy.


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## Señor Voorhees (May 7, 2014)

I'd wait a week or so. You contacted a lot of people who would know if it means anything. If you don't hear back from someone, then it's obvious it's either not a problem or it's forgotten about. Though if what everyone says is true, the guy obviously doesn't use the guitar much if he hasn't kept tabs on it for 6+ years.


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## jwade (May 7, 2014)

This thread reminded me of Ryans 'so fugly it's awesome' Yamaha 7 string. 






Amazing. Now THAT with crazy LED shit, that'd be fun.


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## Konfyouzd (May 7, 2014)

Wow...


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## HurrDurr (May 8, 2014)

I wouldn't send it back though. That store in Poland will do who-knows-what with it if word breaks that it's stolen gear, and then it'll never be seen in the U.S. ever again. If it is stolen gear, I'd hold on to it and continue trying to find out what's the deal with it and present your case with proof that you've been searching for the answers so that nothing get's directed at you and in any case, Ryan get's the guitar back and probably offers you a thank you or something. As for the money, if it was through PayPal, I'd try to file a dispute under the grounds that it may or may not be fake/stolen.


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## Konfyouzd (May 8, 2014)

If you *do* get to meet Ryan, bring the guitar and ask him wussup...


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## lucasreis (May 8, 2014)

Konfyouzd said:


> I just have that "Fiction" song stuck in my head.



But she dreams in digital... cause it's better than nothing! 

ps: I love Orgy.


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## Randy (May 8, 2014)

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned but I'd find it hard to believe the guy wasn't aware the guitar was "missing" for the last 6+ years... I'm not accusing anybody of anything, but I'd consider it within the realm of possibilities this dude could be faking like he wasn't aware the guitar was "missing" as a ploy to get it back (likely to re-flip). Just because he was in a famous band 10 years ago doesn't bar him from doing anything skeezy.

I'd be very particular about detailing every movement of that guitar before I hand it back to anybody.


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## SpaceDock (May 8, 2014)

^ or he sold it while he was all f$#%#ed up on drugs..... no musician has ever done that before.


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## Randy (May 8, 2014)

That's sorta what I had in mind.


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## Edika (May 8, 2014)

Randy said:


> I'm not sure if this has been mentioned but I'd find it hard to believe the guy wasn't aware the guitar was "missing" for the last 6+ years... I'm not accusing anybody of anything, but I'd consider it within the realm of possibilities this dude could be faking like he wasn't aware the guitar was "missing" as a ploy to get it back (likely to re-flip). Just because he was in a famous band 10 years ago doesn't bar him from doing anything skeezy.
> 
> I'd be very particular about detailing every movement of that guitar before I hand it back to anybody.



That has been one of the conclusions I arrived to after hearing the guy didn't know where this guitar has been for 6+ years.


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## ChrisH (May 8, 2014)

The suspense is killing me. I want updates.


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## poopyalligator (May 8, 2014)

Honesty I think I would give it a week. I wouldnt just send it back to Poland just yet. Get some sort of resolution.


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## Danukenator (May 8, 2014)

I'd be mad skeptical that someone wouldn't have noticed the guitar was missing for 6+ years. My first thought was that he just wanted it back or regretted selling it.

I'd document everything about it's history before handing it over.


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## rectifryer (May 8, 2014)

I would return it after being seriously disappointed with how my childhood hero handled the situation which would make me not want the guitar anymore, regardless of legal status. lol. To top it off, a friend of the store owner said you were insane for purchasing the guitar for that much, pretty much implying you were ripped off compared to what they acquired it for. I'd have to say, I look down on any establishment that is willing to charge that much for something that clearly isn't worth it.

Honestly, everyone every step of the way is taking advantage of OP.


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## fps (May 8, 2014)

jwade said:


> This thread reminded me of Ryans 'so fugly it's awesome' Yamaha 7 string.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I love this guitar, looks killer


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## Randy (May 8, 2014)

rectifryer said:


> I would return it after being seriously disappointed with how my childhood hero handled the situation which would make me not want the guitar anymore, regardless of legal status. lol. To top it off, a friend of the store owner said you were insane for purchasing the guitar for that much, pretty much implying you were ripped off compared to what they acquired it for. I'd have to say, I look down on any establishment that is willing to charge that much for something that clearly isn't worth it.
> 
> Honestly, everyone every step of the way is taking advantage of OP.



Kill two birds with one stone. Tell the store owner that tracking down proof of ownership is on him (especially considering what was paid), and tell him for the aggravation, either give back some of the money he overcharged you or accept it as a return for a full refund.


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## xwmucradiox (May 8, 2014)

Randy said:


> Kill two birds with one stone. Tell the store owner that tracking down proof of ownership is on him (especially considering what was paid), and tell him for the aggravation, either give back some of the money he overcharged you or accept it as a return for a full refund.



Why is being "overcharged" an issue here? The store owner is in business to sell every item in his shop for the absolute highest amount of money he can get. And he found the one person who would pay his asking price (extremely happily in fact) for this guitar. The amount of money spent is completely irrelevant to this thread


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## ZXIIIT (May 8, 2014)

Why is everyone blasting OP for his purchase of a one of a kind LACS guitar owned by his idol and has sentimental value for? 

No one bats an eye at someone on here when they buy a mass produced guitar close to that price...


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## broj15 (May 8, 2014)

xwmucradiox said:


> Why is being "overcharged" an issue here? The store owner is in business to sell every item in his shop for the absolute highest amount of money he can get. And he found the one person who would pay his asking price (extremely happily in fact) for this guitar. The amount of money spent is completely irrelevant to this thread



agreed. IMO a one of a kind item's value is based off of 2 things: how much someone is willing to pay for it and how much the seller thinks it's worth (more so the former than the latter). The seller set the precedent and OP stepped up to the plate. foolishly or not is a matter of opinion, which is irrelevant to the thread. 

Keep us updated OP. I personally think you should get to keep the guitar. If the guy has so many that he can just "forget" about an LACS for 6+ years then he obviously didn't miss it too badly.


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## DarkWolfXV (May 8, 2014)

top lel at Poland, my home country never ceases to amaze me, that's why I never buy anything guitar related here, not only there is extremely small choice, but it's overpriced as .... and I can get something way better from somewhere else for that price.


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## cardinal (May 8, 2014)

I think that guitar looks awesome. Love the angular bevels. Was it "overpriced"? Only if the OP could have gotten the exact guitar somewhere else for less. What most folks here seem to be confusing is the concept of something being overpriced (paying more than you had to pay) with the concept that the same object can be worth more to some people than others (which seems to be the case here: the OP was happy with his purchase).

Hope the situation works out. There are all kinds of possible scenarios. The original owner could be lying. He could have had the guitar in a storage locker and had it sold out from under him by someone with access to the locker (or who broke into the locker). He could have forgotten he sold it (perhaps because he was under the influence, or because he made a mistake, or he just forgot). Who knows. 

But if he wants it back and doesn't want to compensate you for it, it'd suggest that it's worth a call to a lawyer who specializes in this type of thing. There may be a statute of limitations or other complete defense. I don't know.


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## Randy (May 8, 2014)

xwmucradiox said:


> Why is being "overcharged" an issue here? The store owner is in business to sell every item in his shop for the absolute highest amount of money he can get. And he found the one person who would pay his asking price (extremely happily in fact) for this guitar. The amount of money spent is completely irrelevant to this thread



Well, it was mentioned a couple times that he paid significantly more than the guitar sold for previously, so I just gathered that being overcharged was an issue to him but if not, I agree... if there's sentimental value, you're free to pay whatever you want.


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## Forkface (May 8, 2014)

Also, I dunno if it has been mentioned, but did anybody notice he said "our BAND storage"?
Maybe one of his bandmates took it/sold it? it would be a dick move but i mean, they maybe thought "oh its been such a long time, he probably doesn't remember/doesn't care anymore"


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## xwmucradiox (May 8, 2014)

Man the rumor mill really goes wild here. An artist suspects that something was stolen from him and immediately SS.org concludes that he probably sold it while high and doesn't remember.


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## projectjetfire (May 8, 2014)

xwmucradiox said:


> Man the rumor mill really goes wild here. An artist suspects that something was stolen from him and immediately SS.org concludes that he probably sold it while high and doesn't remember.



Welcome to the internet, son...


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## rectifryer (May 8, 2014)

xwmucradiox said:


> Man the rumor mill really goes wild here. An artist suspects that something was stolen from him and immediately SS.org concludes that he probably sold it while high and doesn't remember.


6 years ago....and has yet to contact authorities when he noticed where it was or reply to the person who now has it who wants to give it back....

I don't think we really know anything about the situation, which leads people to consider circumstantial outcomes.


----------



## xwmucradiox (May 8, 2014)

rectifryer said:


> 6 years ago....and has yet to contact authorities when he noticed where it was or reply to the person who now has it who wants to give it back....
> 
> I don't think we really know anything about the situation, which leads people to consider circumstantial outcomes.



That guy lives on tour and has been a professional musician for longer than the typical poster on this forum has been alive. I could easily see him losing track of a guitar he hasn't played in a decade.


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## rectifryer (May 8, 2014)

xwmucradiox said:


> That guy lives on tour and has been a professional musician for longer than the typical poster on this forum has been alive. I could easily see him losing track of a guitar he hasn't played in a decade.


Exactly, including whether or not he sold it. I think that is a consensus. 

I am not even sure what we are discussing at this point.


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## Randy (May 8, 2014)

xwmucradiox said:


> That guy lives on tour and has been a professional musician for longer than the typical poster on this forum has been alive. I could easily see him losing track of a guitar he hasn't played in a decade.



An LACS isn't exactly a 'lay around collecting dust' type guitar. Ask any of the artists on here who own an LACS (of which there are several).

Also, considering most of us only remember the guy from a band he hasnt been in for years, I don't know how quick I'd be to characterize him as some globe trotting super professional with an impossible to track guitar collection.

Aside from that, we're talking about a guy that spent 7k on his dream guitar and its one that has touched the hands of more than one member on here. I'd say its just due dilligence to ask some questions before the guy just packs up said guitar and send it to a dude based on a couple cryptic instagram comments. 

like I said, no accusations, I'm just putting it out there.

lastly, you can can your condescending derailing attitude. every post you've bashed was an honest wquestion to the op, and every post you've made was a personal attack. if you have a valuable perspective to share fine but if you're here just to snark, you're going to be taking a nap very soon.


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## SpaceDock (May 8, 2014)

We really need more updates and less banter......Where you at OP?


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## petervindel (May 9, 2014)

Randy said:


> An LACS isn't exactly a 'lay around collecting dust' type guitar. Ask any of the artists on here who own an LACS (of which there are several).
> 
> Also, considering most of us only remember the guy from a band he hasnt been in for years, I don't know how quick I'd be to characterize him as some globe trotting super professional with an impossible to track guitar collection.
> 
> ...



Dude, 
yes, Orgy has not been "alive" for a while, but Ryan has been very active as a musician. His band Julien-K has released 2 albums, and has been toured worldwide, and he also has a band, Dead By Sunrise, together with Chester from Linkin Park. He also has a solid reputation as a composer for videogames and has many songs on different soundtracks, including Transformers. 

It's safe to say that he's more active than most people on this board, and probably has more gear than any of us can imagine. Both him and his partner Amir Derakh has a shitload of guitars, but for the last few years they have been going more and more electro, and probably don't use guitars much any longer and has most of them on storage (as Ryan implies).


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## OmegaSlayer (May 9, 2014)

I say that a guy that didn't realized for 6 years he hadn't a guitar, doesn't deserve his (HIS?) guitar back.
Plain.
Simple.
Drastic.
Lifelike.

OP, try to track down the guitar movement, and if Ryan doesn't have a record file for the stolen instrument, do not give him back.

I'm with Randy.
Ryan's accusation reeks and stinks of bad will.


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## Pikka Bird (May 9, 2014)

^I wouldn't quite call them "accusations" _yet_. When/if he responds we'll know whatever the hell he meant, because his comments seemed rather cryptic. I know if I found someone posting pictures of my home built bicycle that was nicked a few years ago I wouldn't be all wishy-washy about it. I'd make damn sure people knew that it was stolen.


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## Forkface (May 9, 2014)




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## fellsal88 (May 9, 2014)

Hey everyone, sorry for the lack of updates. I just got a new job and it's taking a majority of my time, but anytime I do have I've been do my research about this guitar. I still have yet to hear from Ryan. My girlfriend and I have been losing our f*cking minds trying to message him both on Instagram and Facebook but haven't gotten any response yet. I have been messaging a representative of Guitar Max and they have been quite cooperative about releasing information to me, however, a lot of it is information that I already received from this forum, dating a couple of years back. The sentimental value of this guitar is worth the world to me, since it belonged to the person that influenced me most to start playing guitar when I was younger. I just feel like his comments conveyed that I personally stole it from him, which may not be what he was trying to say, but that's how I took it. With his comments left as is, and now he's not responding to us, this guitar is starting to just look like a fancy piece of wood with lights on it, and is starting to lose sentimental value to me. Even if he let me keep it and was a jerk about it, I wouldn't want to keep it anyways, because no one wants to be accused by their hero of stealing or purchasing "stolen property," and he's not even doing his part to assess the situation for one of his biggest fans. So, hopefully that's not the case, I know he's a really busy musician, but I can't stand the fact that this is weighing to heavy on me. 

I did receive some really good legal advice today:
1. if I were to return the item back to Poland for my money back, granted it was indeed stolen property, it would be the same as if I were selling stolen property (I'll be receiving funds for stolen property)

2. if I were to sell or any transaction were to happen for this guitar, 1. will apply.

So, at this point I'm pretty much stuck with it until I get word from Ryan himself, and if he does contact me with a police report or any legal documentation that he's still the rightful owner of the guitar, at least it will be documented through PayPal, messages from the representatives of Guitar Max, and various social media outlets, that I did my best to get this situation cleared up.

I've gotten so fed up to the point that I am about ready to call his restaurant for a 3rd time to get someone to have him contact me about this serious situation. Even though I was told by a restaurant manager to never contact his restaurant regarding his personal matters (in a rude way, may I add,) I was hoping at least they would be so kind to notify him to let him know the seriousness of the situation.

I've been even thinking about traveling 8 hours down to Hollywood for a Julien K show so I can get a hold of him in the flesh, lol. 

But, I would like to thank all the moderators and everyone who has posted on this page with great support and advice. I'll keep you guys posted as much as I can, though I don't think this case will advance much this week. I do log on every hour at work to check out what you guys post, but just can't respond to them at work on my phone. 

-Sal


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## ZeroS1gnol (May 9, 2014)

Ryan still hasn't responded? Do the math, it doesn't seem like a priority to him apparently. How likely would it be that it's stolen then?


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## Rev2010 (May 9, 2014)

Sal, you should probably relax a bit about this. As everyone else has said it doesn't seem to be too important to Ryan and if he's that active I seriously doubt he'd consider it a serious situation. You'll probably only make matters worse bothering the restaurant so just wait to hear back from Ryan. I also wouldn't message him dozens of times about it cause it will likely just annoy him when he does get around to his messages. If he never responds then just keep it and relax, you have proof you tried to reach out to him. 


Rev.


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## Tisca (May 9, 2014)

I've figured out what happened. Ryan neglected to pay his storage fees and the whole unit was put up for auction. Next week on Storage Wars... "This geetar is easy 500 bucks all day long. Could've gotten 650 but a production mistake was made and it has 7 strings instead of 6. Better luck next time."


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## Lorcan Ward (May 9, 2014)

If he hasn't even replied yet it shows how seriously he's taking the whole situation. Also if he can't spent 30 seconds replying then it makes sense how he hasn't checked his storage in 6 years. Most likely he sold it years ago and forgot. 

Enjoy your guitar. It obviously means a lot more to you than him or anyone else who has owned it previously.


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## technomancer (May 9, 2014)

xwmucradiox said:


> Man the rumor mill really goes wild here. An artist suspects that something was stolen from him and immediately SS.org concludes that he probably sold it while high and doesn't remember.


----------



## cardinal (May 9, 2014)

fellsal88 said:


> Hey everyone, sorry for the lack of updates. I just got a new job and it's taking a majority of my time, but anytime I do have I've been do my research about this guitar. I still have yet to hear from Ryan. My girlfriend and I have been losing our f*cking minds trying to message him both on Instagram and Facebook but haven't gotten any response yet. I have been messaging a representative of Guitar Max and they have been quite cooperative about releasing information to me, however, a lot of it is information that I already received from this forum, dating a couple of years back. The sentimental value of this guitar is worth the world to me, since it belonged to the person that influenced me most to start playing guitar when I was younger. I just feel like his comments conveyed that I personally stole it from him, which may not be what he was trying to say, but that's how I took it. With his comments left as is, and now he's not responding to us, this guitar is starting to just look like a fancy piece of wood with lights on it, and is starting to lose sentimental value to me. Even if he let me keep it and was a jerk about it, I wouldn't want to keep it anyways, because no one wants to be accused by their hero of stealing or purchasing "stolen property," and he's not even doing his part to assess the situation for one of his biggest fans. So, hopefully that's not the case, I know he's a really busy musician, but I can't stand the fact that this is weighing to heavy on me.
> 
> I did receive some really good legal advice today:
> 1. if I were to return the item back to Poland for my money back, granted it was indeed stolen property, it would be the same as if I were selling stolen property (I'll be receiving funds for stolen property)
> ...



For what little it's worth, my advise is to sit tight. If Shuck believes it was stolen and wants it back, he'll surely get back to you. His Instragram or whatever post was cryptic, but since it was cryptic you shouldn't try to read much in to it. Just enjoy the guitar for now. I think it looks sweet, and if I could buy a guitar built for and used by one of my guitar heros, I'd cherish that guitar, too.


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## Skullet (May 9, 2014)

You've done all you can and went the extra mile to try contact Ryan to get this situation sorted . The man hasn't responded and as people have said it wouldn't take long to 1. reply 2. find out if your a LACS down . You have done your bit , if he is not responding then it can't be that important to him . My opinion , enjoy the guitar cause i doubt you'll have to return it  .


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## Datura (May 9, 2014)

best thread in a while


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## WhoThenNow7 (May 9, 2014)

Kinda sucks how the novelty of it is being spoiled by Ryan acting the way he is.. But for 7k I'd try and just get my money back haha. If you bought it from a guitar store and wanted to return it, how is it the same as selling stolen property? It should be the stores responsibility, not yours.


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## Nile (May 9, 2014)

WhoThenNow7 said:


> If you bought it from a guitar store and wanted to return it, how is it the same as selling stolen property? It should be the stores responsibility, not yours.



That's the part that has me confused. That should be on the store.


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## Overtone (May 9, 2014)

Lorcan Ward said:


> Enjoy your guitar. It obviously means a lot more to you than him or anyone else who has owned it previously.




+1


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## TheShreddinHand (May 9, 2014)

WhoThenNow7 said:


> If you bought it from a guitar store and wanted to return it, how is it the same as selling stolen property? It should be the stores responsibility, not yours.



I agree, that doesn't make sense to me either, but what do I know!?

Sal, if you want to get a hold of him at the restaurant just say you're a food critic that wants to do a profile on the place regarding how excellent your experience was there and you need to talk to the owner. OR, say you're restaurant inspector and you've gotten word that folks have found mice droppings in their food! 

Better yet......don't listen to me for advice!  But in all seriousness, I hope you get to the bottom of this with a favorable outcome.


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## ThrustTony (May 9, 2014)

Tell the restaurant manager you're Gordon Ramsay, then you can shout and swear at him as much as you want and get away with it!


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## MetalDaze (May 9, 2014)

I wouldn't sweat it or make any additional effort to contact him. You have made plenty of attempts, so the ball is in his court.

I know you want some definitive closure, but you may never hear from him again.


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## SeaBeast (May 9, 2014)

I'd sit tight with the guitar. You've tried contacting him so that's all you can do. Looking over Ryan's comments I didn't get a vibe he was accusing you of stealing his guitar, so I wouldn't let that ruin the sentimentality.

It's a cool guitar...plus the dude was in Sexart, cowrote Blind, etc.


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## Splinterhead (May 9, 2014)

I agree wholeheartedly. You put yourself out there. You made the effort...actually went above and beyond what you needed to do (at least in my opinion). He can contact you if he needs to. I know he's an important part of your life and you have a bit of an emotional connection to him and the instrument. But please realize that he's just like you. Sometimes when we have dealings with our "heroes" we can be disappointed. I say enjoy the guitar, you paid for it. If he contacts you make sure he provides all the necessary legal documentation (proof) that it was indeed stolen.


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## stevexc (May 9, 2014)

I think everyone REALLY needs to take a step back and calm down. OP bought a guitar purported to be Ryan Shuck's LACS. Ryan saw it on instagram, and said "I don't remember selling that, I need to check my band storage".

I don't see how anybody is doing anything wrong here, and why tempers seem to be flaring.

OP, for the time being just chill and enjoy your guitar. I'm sure Ryan just needs to get to wherever he was storing his Orgy gear (lol phrasing) to actually see if the guitar is there or not and if there's a paper trail. You've done your due diligence. He'll reach out to you.


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## Forkface (May 9, 2014)

so in the meantime....
do you think we can get some more pics pretty please??


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## jwade (May 9, 2014)

I'd say that the immediate first move here is to stop harassing his restaurant. They have no relevance in this situation. Secondly, stop trying to turn this into something bigger. You bought a guitar. He doesn't remember selling it. Odds are, if you stop making noise about it, he's going to forget this entire thing in 5 minutes anyway.


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## fellsal88 (May 9, 2014)

jwade said:


> I'd say that the immediate first move here is to stop harassing his restaurant. They have no relevance in this situation. Secondly, stop trying to turn this into something bigger. You bought a guitar. He doesn't remember selling it. Odds are, if you stop making noise about it, he's going to forget this entire thing in 5 minutes anyway.



I don't know if you understand the situation. This is 7K of stolen property that i own. i can't legally get rid of this guitar even if wanted to.


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## jwade (May 9, 2014)

Like other people have said, there's not one scrap of proof that it's stolen. One comment on Instragram or twitter or wherever saying 'oh i don't remember selling that' is meaningless. Hard drugs and terrible conditions while touring can lead to a serious memory gap.

It almost just seems like you WANT it to turn out to be stolen so that you can go return it to him.


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## fellsal88 (May 9, 2014)

jwade said:


> It almost just seems like you WANT it to turn out to be stolen so that you can go return it to him.



why would i ever want that? so i can get assed out of 7k. Thats gotta be the most stupidest comment in this thread.


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## Andromalia (May 9, 2014)

Well, at least you're pretty sure it's authentic now.


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## Watty (May 9, 2014)

Sounds like he has no idea what's going on and/or doesn't care. If he hasn't got in touch with you about it, it's obviously not a priority to him. Not sure if the police would be the best option (hadn't read the entire thread), but perhaps you could try his professional booking contacts instead of the restaurant? I'd imagine that would lead to a more fruitful means of getting ahold him if nothing else...

And not trying to say that you shouldn't have spent that much on it, but if you're in a financial position to sink $7,000 into a guitar, you're in a position to remain as such if in fact it does turn out to be stolen. I hope you don't take that as any sort of insult, just stating a fact about people who have the capacity to use discretionary income on purchases like these.

Here's hoping you get the situation resolved soon, especially if the sentimental nature of the purchase is wearing off. I always tried to keep the music separate from the personality of the person who wrote it as I know there's plenty of musicians whose music I love but whose lifestyle I don't approve of (to put it mildly)...could always try parsing your opinion of the situation like that in order to see past whatever comes of his personal dealings with you.

Good luck.


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## Alex Kenivel (May 9, 2014)

Legally, you've done your part. Results or not, legally *YOU'RE OK!!*



fellsal88 said:


> 2) I found out later the property was stolen and i did nothing to notify the authority's or the original owner. At this point is considered "harboring stolen property"


 
"You can only extend your hand and wait for the other party to shake it.." - from a legal advice counselor my uncle is cool with.

If PayPal has their facts straight, then you're ok. Take the law literally, that's how loopholes are created.

Enjoy this beautiful axe, and don't let Ryan's legally insignificant and seemingly unserious comment spoil it for you.

And hey, if the guitar seems to be staring a hole in your head and you need some time apart from the guitar I can drive down and borrow it for a while.


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## slapnutz (May 10, 2014)

Sounds like you have done the right steps with your efforts to notify him. Sounds like he is dragging his heels into showing interest in resolving this so I would just enjoy the guitar and make sure the shop/seller has your back if incase a return and a 7k refund is required.

I just wish Dino would forget to pay his storage fees.


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## noUser01 (May 10, 2014)

Honestly man I would relax if I were you. Don't bother the restaurant anymore and don't assume it's stolen property. And don't read too much into Ryan's comments, it genuinely seemed like he was just confused about the guitar in general.

You've done more than your fair share of trying to contact him, tracing back the guitar, everything. You have tons of documentation showing the lengths you've gone to in order to be honest and up front about everything. As far as legal entity would be concerned, you are completely 100% in the clear. It's going to be just fine, alright? Really. 

Don't let this whole thing get to you and ruin this guitar for you. You worked hard to get this guitar and you deserve it! The truth will come out eventually and one way or another everything is going to work out just fine. You don't know it's stolen property, you don't know that you're going to lose your guitar or your money... there's nothing left to do right now but to just wait it out, you've done all you can do, just let time take care of things now. 

In the mean time, just play that guitar and give it as much love as it deserves.  It's all good buddy.


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## s4tch (May 10, 2014)

fellsal88 said:


> This is 7K of stolen property that i own.



It is not. The guy placed an ambiguous comment on instagram, that's all. There's no police report, no confirmation on behalf of the previous owner, that Ryan guy refuses to get back to you, there's nothing that proves that your guitar is stolen. 

Try to enjoy the instrument, and forget about this incident until any official notice.


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## ZeroS1gnol (May 10, 2014)

s4tch said:


> It is not. The guy placed an ambiguous comment on instagram, that's all. There's no police report, no confirmation on behalf of the previous owner, that Ryan guy refuses to get back to you, there's nothing that proves that your guitar is stolen.
> 
> Try to enjoy the instrument, and forget about this incident until any official notice.



Everyone is telling this to OP, but it seems he refuses to take our advice. That he is so set on the idea it's stolen is just mindboggling to me. Something about letting sleeping dogs lie...


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## SeaBeast (May 10, 2014)

For real OP, just sit back and enjoy the fact you own a LACS from an awesome guitar player!


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## theycallmetc (May 10, 2014)

I'm just gonna go make some popcorn.



OmegaSlayer said:


> I say that a guy that didn't realized for 6 years he hadn't a guitar, doesn't deserve his (HIS?) guitar back.



What kind of concept of private property is that?


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## swedenuck (May 10, 2014)

Honestly, I skipped the last 4 pages...
But I can tell that you both got robbed.


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## Metal-Box (May 10, 2014)

I can see how disheartening this is for you. But, for what I gather, this is my theory:

1. This guy shared some storage with his band. It's possible one of his bandmates sold the guitar because he said he doesn't remember selling it.

2. As a result, he probably settled it with his bandmate and doesn't care about it anymore because it's technically not stolen property if it was owned by the band.

3. He is just inconsiderate to not contact you to settle it. I seems he cares nil that you are a huge fan and some sort of respectful resolution would probably mean more to you than the guitar itself.

Good luck, OP. I would just hang onto it. The onus is on him to take the next step.


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## JoshuaVonFlash (May 10, 2014)

Is anybody else thinking this is all just the result of a misconstrued joke?


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## rectifryer (May 10, 2014)

JoshuaVonFlash said:


> Is anybody else thinking this is all just the result of a misconstrued joke?



Yes.


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## metale (May 11, 2014)

Splinterhead said:


> I agree wholeheartedly. You put yourself out there. You made the effort...actually went above and beyond what you needed to do (at least in my opinion). He can contact you if he needs to. I know he's an important part of your life and you have a bit of an emotional connection to him and the instrument. But please realize that he's just like you. Sometimes when we have dealings with our "heroes" we can be disappointed. I say enjoy the guitar, you paid for it.



This. Calm down. You did what you should. I don't see trouble coming to you from this.

IMO, he probably remembered and won't even reply back as to not admit his lack of memory. This also shows a lack of respect for someone that is obviously a big fan.

I can understand you being disappointed by your idol (I know what a lack of reply from Brian May did to me some decade ago), but don't let that get to you. Take your good feelings for him and memories, transfer them to the guitar, and enjoy it.


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## Splenetic (May 11, 2014)

Whhooooooo what a roller coaster of a thread.... This is the most genuine emotional impact I've seen from Orgy to this day. 

It's like an episode of Maury.... "The tests are in .... You are indeed the owner of the guitar!" *the audience cheers* 

Orgy dude screams: "YOU DON'T KNOW ME!" *runs off backstage.*



On a serious note though: You've done far more than most people would. Chill on it, give it some time, if the guy doesn't have any proof it's stolen property and isn't contacting you about it, it was probably not stolen or it was but he realizes it's not your fault and is letting it go on your side. While it would be great for him to contact you right away, maybe he's just tracking down what happened in his camp (along with having a busy schedule), and will get back to you soon enough. Essentially he might give someone a lot of shit for it....but realistically speaking, that someone wouldn't be you because you have proof of purchase from a legit business.


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## mnemonic (May 11, 2014)

If you haven't already, its worth flagging something up with paypal if thats how you paid. 

If he comes back a month from now saying it _was _stolen and wants it back, at least then you'll have some recourse about getting your 7k back.


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## UV7BK4LIFE (May 11, 2014)

This whole thread makes me think of a famous quote from a song by a band that makes Nu-Metal with a dash of New Wave.

"Don't waste your *bleep*ing time, let live, let go."


HNGD!


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## crg123 (May 11, 2014)

JoshuaVonFlash said:


> Is anybody else thinking this is all just the result of a misconstrued joke?



I have to say this seems to be the most likely thing, only Ryan really knows though...


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## WhoThenNow7 (May 12, 2014)

At this point I'd treat it like it was a regular sale.. If he was really worried about something being stolen, then you'd know by now.. so.. there you go man. happy NGD.


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## JaxoBuzzo (May 12, 2014)

Hey, it's Ryan. I'd like for you to send me my guitar back + pay for the overseas shipping. I will PM you my mailing address. Thanks.


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## Neilzord (May 12, 2014)

No I'm RYAN, Send it to me! 


I'm not Ryan... 

Just enjoy the guitar until someone comes to you with proof its stolen. Which IMO they probably never will! 

Just go play it!


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## Pikka Bird (May 12, 2014)

Neilzord said:


> No I'm RYAN, Send it to me!



No, _I_'m Spartac... Ryan!



UV7BK4LIFE said:


> This whole thread makes me think of a famous quote from a song by a band that makes Nu-Metal with a dash of New Wave.
> 
> "Don't waste your *bleep*ing time, let live, let go."



Ha ha, wonder who that might have been. 

I am on the side that thinks you should just chill and not think too much more about it. I don't have any clue why he isn't at least replying to your message, but there can be plenty of semi-legit reasons for that. having just checked, I can see that he's been twittering in the meantime, so just sending you a short line to say what's what shouldn't be too demanding, but maybe he simply forgot all about it (like I do when I read and reply to something just before falling asleep, for instance).


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## Neilzord (May 12, 2014)

Pikka Bird said:


> No, _I_'m Spartac... Ryan!
> 
> .



You knew exactly what I was hoping that would lead too.


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## ImNotAhab (May 12, 2014)

I'm Ryan and so is my wife.


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## Overtone (May 12, 2014)

JaxoBuzzo said:


> Hey, it's Ryan. I'd like for you to send me my guitar back + pay for the overseas shipping. I will PM you my mailing address. Thanks.


----------



## Xaios (May 12, 2014)

Pikka Bird said:


> No, _I_'m Spartac... Ryan!



Dammit, I was gonna do that!


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## xCaptainx (May 12, 2014)

The guy already knows who you are now that you've gone back and forth via instagram. 

If he was THAT concerned he'd simply send you a private instagram photo with his contact details. 

It's been weeks and he hasn't done it. 

It looks like he was just making a silly remark, a casual joke and can't be bothered following it up. Which to be fair, makes sense. Imagine making an off the cuff joke on instagram and then having the random person calling businesses you own? Not exactly something you'd want to follow up with! 

He knows who you are, just enjoy your guitar. Though tbh 7k for a LACS from an artist 20 years past prime is insane, I'm crying thinking about the possible build, or builds, that could have been made with that amount of money!


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## donray1527 (May 12, 2014)

Well, it is a one of a kind ibanez. It is worth that much to the right buyer


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## ibanice (May 12, 2014)

donray1527 said:


> Well, it is a one of a kind ibanez. It is worth that much to the right buyer



My exact words!


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## Pikka Bird (May 13, 2014)

^True. Nobody* bats an eye when one of Clapton's Strats fetch a premium at some auction.

*) Or rather, not _that_ many people...


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## swedenuck (May 13, 2014)

Pikka Bird said:


> ^True. Nobody* bats an eye when one of Clapton's Strats fetch a premium at some auction.
> 
> *) Or rather, not _that_ many people...



Clapton's a god, Ryan Shuck played for Orgy...
Yeah...


----------



## Tesla (May 13, 2014)

swedenuck said:


> Clapton's a god, Ryan Shuck played for Orgy...
> Yeah...



"God" comes down to the believer.


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## poopyalligator (May 13, 2014)

You guys need to stop being dicks about how much he paid for the guitar. The guitar was obviously worth it to him, and I could understand that type of excitement for a one off custom guitar from a brand you like made for one of your guitar idols. It is his money and not yours, so why even comment on it?


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## swedenuck (May 13, 2014)

Hater's gotta hate.


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## RustInPeace (May 13, 2014)

poopyalligator said:


> You guys need to stop being dicks about how much he paid for the guitar. The guitar was obviously worth it to him, and I could understand that type of excitement for a one off custom guitar from a brand you like made for one of your guitar idols. It is his money and not yours, so why even comment on it?



I'd sell one of my children, maybe two, for cash for Hetfield's KL explorer.


----------



## jwade (May 13, 2014)

jwade said:


> Like other people have said, there's not one scrap of proof that it's stolen. One comment on Instragram or twitter or wherever saying 'oh i don't remember selling that' is meaningless. Hard drugs and terrible conditions while touring can lead to a serious memory gap.
> 
> It almost just seems like you WANT it to turn out to be stolen so that you can go return it to him.





fellsal88 said:


> why would i ever want that? so i can get assed out of 7k. Thats gotta be the most stupidest comment in this thread.



I just want to address this, because I just came back to the thread and realized I'd missed your response. 

I was totally joking, dude. I should've included a smiley or something, my bad. I was merely trying to be humorous about your efforts to sort things out. No offense was intended.


----------



## xCaptainx (May 13, 2014)

jwade said:


> I just want to address this, because I just came back to the thread and realized I'd missed your response.
> 
> I was totally joking, dude. I should've included a smiley or something, my bad. I was merely trying to be humorous about your efforts to sort things out. No offense was intended.



So that's now two joke comments OP didn't get heeeyoooooh


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## poopyalligator (May 15, 2014)

Any updates on this guitar?


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## fellsal88 (May 16, 2014)

jwade said:


> I just want to address this, because I just came back to the thread and realized I'd missed your response.
> 
> I was totally joking, dude. I should've included a smiley or something, my bad. I was merely trying to be humorous about your efforts to sort things out. No offense was intended.




Sorry man. I truly took that the wrong way. I'm sorry for being soo defensive. 

So far no updates with the guitar. Although, Ryan has logged onto facebook and posted stuff lately, but I'm sure my message has been pushed down by tons of other fan messages and has just gotten lost and he's not going to have a chance to read it nor message me back. I think I'm going to have the guitar store I purchased it from make it their obligation to authenticate the guitar for me. Why should I ruin my reputation as a fan by keep on bugging him about it, when the guitar store should be authenticating the guitar, and backtracking where it came from. I have until June to file a Paypal claim and find out the status of the guitar. If I don't find out anything about it, I'm thinking of sending it back because I'm losing sentimental value for it. I don't want to get attached to it, and then later might have to give it back. 

Thank you to everyone for the support and the humorous Orgy jokes lol, you guys have truly made this thread worth checking up on on a daily basis. 

Thanks Everyone!


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## philkilla (May 16, 2014)

I'd send it back and order a custom Ran or Mayoness. Make your own legacy.


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## Jason2112 (May 16, 2014)

fellsal88 said:


> So far no updates with the guitar. Although, Ryan has logged onto facebook and posted stuff lately, but I'm sure my message has been pushed down by tons of other fan messages and has just gotten lost and he's not going to have a chance to read it nor message me back.



Yeah, that must be it.... 

Here's a dose of harsh reality: this situation obviously means nothing to that dude and (unfortunately for you) neither do you. Your girlfriend's letter to him was extremely nice and flattering, and how does he repay your years of loyalty? By not giving you the time of day. I'm sure that's a harder blow for you to take than the potential loss of $7k. I feel bad you, I really do, but put your sentimental feelings aside and look at this situation at face value - you have tried to do the right thing in making contact with him to verify that your new guitar is legit, and he's blown you off. Let it go, enjoy your new guitar., and stop worrying it. If that douche can be bothered to get back to you, hopefully he acknowledges you as good person and a long-time fan. If not, you still have a cool guitar and memories of your childhood to keep.


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## UV7BK4LIFE (May 16, 2014)

philkilla said:


> I'd send it back and order a custom Ran or Mayoness. Make your own legacy.


 
I would order 4, maybe 5 custom RAN's and then invite Premier Guitar for a rig rundown


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## nikt (May 16, 2014)

NEED MORE PIX!!!!


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## HighGain510 (May 16, 2014)

Jason2112 said:


> Yeah, that must be it....
> 
> Here's a dose of harsh reality: this situation obviously means nothing to that dude and (unfortunately for you) neither do you. Your girlfriend's letter to him was extremely nice and flattering, and how does he repay your years of loyalty? By not giving you the time of day. I'm sure that's a harder blow for you to take than the potential loss of $7k. I feel bad you, I really do, but put your sentimental feelings aside and look at this situation at face value - you have tried to do the right thing in making contact with him to verify that your new guitar is legit, and he's blown you off. Let it go, enjoy your new guitar., and stop worrying it. If that douche can be bothered to get back to you, hopefully he acknowledges you as good person and a long-time fan. If not, you still have a cool guitar and memories of your childhood to keep.




Yep, pretty sure the OP blew this whole thing wayyy out of proportion based on what appears to have been a poorly-worded "joke response" from Ryan Shuck to the picture.  

Honestly, if Ryan REALLY felt it was stolen, he would have said "Hey dude, this was stolen from me and I need your contact information NOW." or at the very least, replied to your direct message letting you know everything was cool. I highly doubt he's receiving boatloads of fan messages daily either   (no offense meant, I'm a fan of the band too, he's just not likely to be one of those guys who has a ton of fans stalking him daily or anything )

Bottom line: Stop trying to turn this into more than it is. You paid for the guitar through a well-known guitar store, Ryan made a stupid comment on the picture and then ignored your messages because clearly it was nothing more than exactly that. Just enjoy the guitar for the original reason you bought it: it's a sentimental piece of guitar/band history that you really wanted.


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## fellsal88 (May 17, 2014)

I'll Post More Pics as Soon as I Get a Chance. Meanwhile i Covered a Orgy Song Using the Guitar. 

[SC]https://soundcloud.com/sal-cisneros/faces-orgy-cover[/SC]


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## xCaptainx (May 18, 2014)

Jason2112 said:


> Yeah, that must be it....
> 
> Here's a dose of harsh reality: this situation obviously means nothing to that dude and (unfortunately for you) neither do you. Your girlfriend's letter to him was extremely nice and flattering, and how does he repay your years of loyalty? By not giving you the time of day. I'm sure that's a harder blow for you to take than the potential loss of $7k. I feel bad you, I really do, but put your sentimental feelings aside and look at this situation at face value - you have tried to do the right thing in making contact with him to verify that your new guitar is legit, and he's blown you off. Let it go, enjoy your new guitar., and stop worrying it. If that douche can be bothered to get back to you, hopefully he acknowledges you as good person and a long-time fan. If not, you still have a cool guitar and memories of your childhood to keep.



This x 100. 

I doubt he's sitting back somewhere living off royalties and not caring if his storage unit was burgled. 

Plus I wholeheartedly agree with another earlier comment about making your own legacy. A Mayones custom would be unreal! Heck at that price you could hit up pretty much any well known custom shop and get an absolute banger of a guitar.


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## fellsal88 (May 24, 2014)

*So yesterday i had a conversation with Ryan Shuck himself over Facebook. The way this conversation was started, was by me "Tagging" him in a photo of me holding the guitar (Again) on Instagram.*





*After that i replied with, on how i attempted to call and write multiple times to get ahold of him.
I finally messaged him one more time on Facebook. he finally replied back. here are photos and screen shots depicting that conversation. 
*











































*So after some investigating, i came to a conclusion that this a replica. If you take a look at some the pictures bellow. you can see Ryan's guitar is very, very different from the one i have. Even down to the color. 
*

*In This photo you can see the guitar is totally a different color from mine. Also you can notice that his has no switch for the laser at the top of the headstock.*





*In this photo you can see that Ryan's guitar does'nt have a chrome floyd rose system for a bridge (like Ryan Stated), and his pickup is black.*





*Once again a view of the paint job and no switches on the body. *






*]Finally this picture shows a good view of the headstock. As you can see, it has the Ibanez signature wave line on it. And the Ibanez logo looks big as it should be. You will find that wave on every Ibanez guitars except the prestige series or the J Custom series before 2004 even if was a LA Custom Shop. Also you can clearly see the the body has no switches in this picture aswell.
*


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## bugmenot1 (May 24, 2014)

If the store you bought it from aren't crooks, I'd say that should lock you in for a refund.


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## Korngod (May 24, 2014)

Very intriguing story! Its a shame that it wasnt actually his. My money is that this could still have been someones LACS because I can't say Ive seen a LoPro modded like that. If the guitar ends up having no relation to Orgy, Im curious to know its back story. Definitely see what the store can do for you now that you have word from Ryan himself that hes sure it wasnt his.


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## Tesla (May 24, 2014)

I'd definitely try and raise Ibanez now and get them to run the serial number for some information on it. That is of course, if it actually is an Ibanez and not a luthier copy. 

Really sorry it turned out this way man, for real.


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## nikt (May 24, 2014)

Tesla said:


> I'd definitely try and raise Ibanez now and get them to run the serial number for some information on it. That is of course, if it actually is an Ibanez and not a luthier copy.
> 
> Really sorry it turned out this way man, for real.



The bridge is available only thru LACS and you can't buy it from Ibanez.


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## Vrollin (May 24, 2014)

Id be getting in contact with Ibanez LACS and in contact with the store you bought it from ASAP.
I would also be starting to raise a claim with paypal that the goods you were sold do not in fact meet the description of being one of Ryans guitars which it was sold under the premise of and hence the high price. You are more than entitled here to send the guitar back for a full refund or refunded the difference in the actual value of the guitar. If its a fake and indeed not an LACS I would be chasing full refund...


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## Tesla (May 24, 2014)

nikt said:


> The bridge is available only thru LACS and you can't buy it from Ibanez.



The chrome floyd rose??


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## Zinter (May 24, 2014)

Sorry to see this turn out this way, I'm sure most of us were hoping it would work out that he had legally sold it. Like others said, get a refund man!


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## MoshJosh (May 24, 2014)

man that totally sucks!!! hopefully you can get your money back!!!


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## Churchie777 (May 24, 2014)

Well things have just got interesting


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## SDMFVan (May 24, 2014)

I think Ryan hit it on the head, it's a LACS he had built for somebody else (Jay?).


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## Chokey Chicken (May 24, 2014)

I'd return it, or at the very least get one hell of a discount/refund. Glad to hear you got into contact with the guy though. At least now you don't have to fear the law busting down your door.


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## Vostre Roy (May 24, 2014)

Just wondering, is there anyway to contact LACS with the serial number on it just to clear out where this instrument comes from and whom it was built to?

I believe that the shop who sold you that instrument SHOULD had done this before claiming who it used to belong to.


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## WhoThenNow7 (May 24, 2014)

Return it.. you didn't buy it just because the design.. you bought because it was supposed to be HIS guitar. and if it's not HIS, then get your money back.. seriously, what is left to hold on to it anymore for?


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## Pikka Bird (May 24, 2014)

This is disheartening... I feel for you, man. 



Tesla said:


> The chrome floyd rose??



Yeah, the fixed Lo Pro has been used on one Satriani model and one Mich Thompson model, but only in six string versions. I don't think I ever saw any of these built for more than six strings, other than those welded ones they made for the Meshuggah guys. This one doesn't even seem to be welded, and it has had the sides (that rest on the posts) ground narrower. It's quite an oddball to me.


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## downburst82 (May 24, 2014)

Thats really to bad 

I guess the small upside is you got to talk to your hero and he actually seems like a pretty stand up guy! Which kinda makes a few of peoples comments in this thread about him and the situation a little...rude (but I understand people were just sharing there thoughts trying to help you sort things out).

Hopefully the store you bought it from does the right thing and refunds you your $$.


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## SpaceDock (May 24, 2014)

Return it!!!


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## Dan (May 24, 2014)

Wow, Ryan was oh so very polite in helping a guy who's spent literally thousands of dollars on an instrument because he thought it was owned by him. It was obviously him on the instagram account, why else would he have mentioned not believing he had sold the guitar? 

Don't apologise to him for going down every route to make sure that you got in contact to achieve a resolution. At the end of the day you need to make sure that you're legally clear so if he has a problem with you trying to get in touch with him about it then he should obviously take appropriate measures to ensure that he is able to be contacted about his "business". 

Sorry to hear it ended this way, but I'd also recommend sending it back and asking for a refund. I'm sure the refund will be spent on something much more deserving.


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## poopyalligator (May 24, 2014)

Man I am sorry it worked out that way. Although it is great that you finally got some closure from the man himself.


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## Pikka Bird (May 24, 2014)

Dan said:


> It was obviously him on the instagram account, why else would he have mentioned not believing he had sold the guitar?



Did he say it wasn't? The only thing I noticed him saying was about FB, not Instagram. Messages from non-"friends" on FB get sidetracked all the time, especially if sent to someone's official page rather than the one they use for personal, non-professional stuff. Even my own personal page has some messages going to the "other messages" folder, which I don't get notifications for. I don't think Ryan is such a huge a-hole in this as some people are making him out to be.


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## fortisursus (May 24, 2014)

And the plot thickens... Definitely start the refund process and put pressure on the store even if you do decide to keep it.


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## mikolo (May 24, 2014)

Id say get a good refund and keep it. Thing looks badass, and I would give anything for a fixed lo-pro


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## Tesla (May 25, 2014)

Pikka Bird said:


> Yeah, the fixed Lo Pro has been used on one Satriani model and one Mich Thompson model, but only in six string versions. I don't think I ever saw any of these built for more than six strings, other than those welded ones they made for the Meshuggah guys. This one doesn't even seem to be welded, and it has had the sides (that rest on the posts) ground narrower. It's quite an oddball to me.



Interesting, never knew that! At least if that's the case then there's a very low chance of it being a fake.


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## Dan (May 25, 2014)

Pikka Bird said:


> Did he say it wasn't? The only thing I noticed him saying was about FB, not Instagram. Messages from non-"friends" on FB get sidetracked all the time, especially if sent to someone's official page rather than the one they use for personal, non-professional stuff. Even my own personal page has some messages going to the "other messages" folder, which I don't get notifications for. I don't think Ryan is such a huge a-hole in this as some people are making him out to be.



Apologies, you are correct he's contacted him through instagram initially. But i still feel he could have handled it a lot better given the situation and its legal implications. He's known about this since the very beginning and to my knowledge has made no attempt to get in touch with Sal after starting this whole debacle. 

I know if this had been one of my instruments however insignificant i would have sent a message over instagram with details on how to get in touch rather than tell someone that they are wrong for using an alternative method to speak to me about a very valuable instrument after many weeks of trying to get in contact. Anyway we are getting past the point here. Whats the word Sal? Have you heard anymore from Ryan or from the shop you bought this from?


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## RevelGTR (May 25, 2014)

I agree with everyone that you should return it. Given the drama, I don't know that I could love the guitar anymore. And if I'm being honest, it doesn't strike me as being anywhere near worth what you paid for it.


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## Ribboz (May 25, 2014)

Get a refund!


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## TheWarAgainstTime (May 25, 2014)

Pikka Bird said:


> Yeah, the fixed Lo Pro has been used on one Satriani model and one Mich Thompson model, but only in six string versions. I don't think I ever saw any of these built for more than six strings, other than those welded ones they made for the Meshuggah guys. This one doesn't even seem to be welded, and it has had the sides (that rest on the posts) ground narrower. It's quite an oddball to me.



Those models use the FX-III bridge, which is a fixed version of the Edge-III. I wish they used a fixed Lo-Pro though! I'd probably have three of each


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## xCaptainx (May 25, 2014)

Well, that's an interesting turn of events for sure. 

Get a refund and be done with it.


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## Pikka Bird (May 26, 2014)

TheWarAgainstTime said:


> Those models use the FX-III bridge, which is a fixed version of the Edge-III. I wish they used a fixed Lo-Pro though! I'd probably have three of each



No they don't... 

(JS2000 and MTM1)


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## DISTORT6 (May 26, 2014)

Jeeze, what a mess. I got to hand it to you though, you are very persistent.


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## unclejemima218 (May 26, 2014)

I will say it is still a sick looking guitar, but yeah man if it's not the guitar you thought it was I don't see a reason to keep it. do what you have to do!


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## rowanr (Jun 2, 2014)

What a mess. What happened in the end, did you get a refund?


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## fellsal88 (Jun 4, 2014)

**** UPDATE WITH ALOT OF CRAZY SH*T ***
*


This guitar has been one terrible headache/Clusterf**k/Disappointment. I am going to breakdown my story of what I went through since I last left a update on here. Also, I am here to expose the &#8220;Guitar Max&#8221; on how horrible of store they are as far as their lack of Customer service, the fact that they cant admit that they are wrong, and their lying salesmanship. I was asked by the store not to post anything about their business on any forum or speak of this transaction to anyone. I pretty much said f**k that. I&#8217;m going to post all the email conversation that occurred when they tried to validate the guitar and lie to me about it. 

*Here we go.*

After Ryan and I had our last conversation I proceeded to email one of the Representative of Guitar Max named Carole leis. She is the main person who handled my transaction. I let her know it was going to be difficult for me to respond often because I just had part of my tongue removed for a medical biopsy for cancer. So I wasn&#8217;t going to be able to communicate verbally over the phone as well. So I sent her what I posted on here on the forum. 


*This is her response:*

*&#8220;Hi Sal:

Hope everything goes well with your biopsy. I just had some biopsies done myself on the esophagus. 

I forwarded everything to Jacek and what we would like you to get from Ryan is the LACS serial number on his guitar. Also, can you give us a date when the photos were taken. We have a very good friend in the biz who is in contact with LACS and we will have this checked out. 
Again, hope all goes well with the biopsy.
Caroe &#8220;*


*This was my Response:*
*
Thank you soo much Carole for the biopsy support. That truly means the world to me. I hope all goes great with yours.

As far asking Ryan for his LACS serial number. That's gonna be very unlikely he will be willing to give up that private information. I think he's only willing to help so far. He hasn't wrote me back since the last message. The photos were taken from the ORGY DVD. Entitled "Trans Global Spectacle" the coarse of that DVD was during the era of 2002-2005. You can find the DVD and watch for free on YouTube. PayPal wanted me to file a "fraudulent claim" immediately. I told them that your guys store has reputable rate in customer service and concern. I also told them that I'll try and work with guys on this and try to come to a mutual understanding and agreement for guitar before filing a claim.


Thank you once again Carole for you help. I hope all is great with your biopsy and that you have a reason to smile when you get your results.

-Sal Cisneros
*

*Her Response:*

*Hi Sal:

Please don't file a fraudulent claim, after all the cooperation we have shown you, that would be, not only unnecessary, but really wrong. We want to get to the bottom of this as much as you do. And, you are correct when you say that we are reputable in our dealings. It really is not fair to us when you post everything on 7 String Forum before we have an opportunity to investigate the details. It would be best if you gave us the time to find out what is going on. As this is a long holiday weekend, we ask that you be patient. As I said, we already have someone checking into this with LACS. Our contact with LACS tells us that they definitely recognize the guitar from the design and serial number as one made in their shop, from scratch, for Ryan. This guitar has more custom made features than any other guitar made by LACS. I have to say that I find it strange that Ryan would not share his serial number, I would think he would want to be helpful in solving this issue. We find it even more unbelievable that he would not have a record of serial numbers of custom guitars, at the very least this would be necessary for insurance purposes. Additiionally, and even more interesting, our source at LACS told us that a few years ago when LACS asked Ryan where this guitar was, he responded that he didn't know exactly, but he was aware that he had this guitar. If necessary, we will get the serial number confirmed by LACS directly. At any rate, we will find out about the guitar. We are sharing all this information with you, but we are asking that until we can resolve this issue, that you not share the information on 7 String or any other forum, or with anyone for that matter. 

In the meantime, enjoy the Memorial Day Weekend.

Carole*



So I gave it a few days and waited as I recovered with a tube in my mouth hating the world because I couldn&#8217;t talk or have solids. On Memorial Day, I was awaken by a phone call at 12 in the afternoon. Me being barley awake and barely able to comprehend what&#8217;s going on. Mainly because I&#8217;m hung over from pain medication from the night before. I hear a voice onf the phone that says&#8230;&#8230; Hi my name is Dino Cazares from the band Fear Factory, divine heresy, and brujeria&#8230;.. So the first thought that comes into mind is&#8230;..Sh*t, I OD&#8221;ed on Hydrocodone lol. The more I started to wake up the more I started to freak out because; I am talking to Dino Cazares! We started talking about the Ryan Shuck LACS and how much or a rare bridge it has on it. According to Dino you can only have a bridge like that whenyou can get a Ibanez LACS. Then we started to discuss the serial number of my guitar and how it came from the LACS factory. Then he sent me a couple of text&#8217;s of his guitars and some of the new LACS serial numbers that are coming out. All in all it was a pretty cool experience talking to that dude. Over the course of days we continue to text each other about the guitar. 

*Pictures of some of the conversation listed below. *




































From there I Emailed Carole and told her thank you for having Dino call it was a amazing experience in all but it still doesn&#8217;t validate that this is Ryan&#8217;s guitar. I got no response back, so I decided to call her. She didn&#8217;t answer, and I had given up for the day.


*She replied back at the very end of day and this is what she had to say: *

*&#8220;Hi Sal:
Sorry I couldn't take your call, I was in a meeting and I just now got home through a God-awful thunder and lightening storm. I am glad that you and Dino were able to connect and that he was able to provide you with information substantiating the provenance of the guitar. 
Carole &#8220;*

At this point I started to see that this company is not negotiable and they truly don&#8217;t care about their customers no matter what how much an amount they spend in their store. The next couple of days I just complete focused on healing and hoping for good results on the medical biopsy.
Then I received a message from Ryan Shuck about his guitar that he still has in storage. 

*These are the photos and the message I received from him: *






















At this I pretty much lost my f**king lost my mind. I was soo frustrated that i demand for them to clear things up. I got on the computer immediately and wrote them a Email Explaining my frustration and disappointment. I even gave them options on how they could make it right. 

*Here is the email I sent:*

*Hi Carol,
I understand you don't want me posting about this on the Sevenstring.org site, however, I have gotten a lot of great feedback/support, as well as, some information about the guitar itself from some of the community members. Also, a few of the Sevenstring.org members do work for Ibanez/LACS, so they have been so supportive in trying to help me figure things out as well. Like I said, I did reach out to Ryan Shuck himself, as you saw in the conversation I had with him, he pointed out some details in the guitar I bought from Guitar Max that were completely different from the Ibanez LACS that he owns himself, including how the bridge on his personal guitar is a fixed bridge (the guitar I purchased from you guys is a lopro non floating floyd), and his personal guitar does not have the two-way switch on the body (as does the one I purchased from you guys), also, the Ibanez logo on the headstocks of both guitars are clearly different. I have provided you with a picture to point out the major differences in the guitars. 

I am personally a high reputable guitar collector, as I am known on several forums to own a few of the rarest guitars in the world. The reason I post about my guitars on forums (as do many high reputable guitar collectors do) is for insurance and documentation purposes. I understand you guys don't want me to post about this on any forums, because of reputation, however, it sounds like a fraudulent move on your guys' part. The reason I am taking it as a fraudulent case, as PayPal already advised me to do, is because the guitar you sold was advertised as being Ryan Shuck's authentic personal Ibanez LACS (not a replica), to which Ryan Shuck himself has already verified, as well as, physical evidence that the guitar is not the same as the one Ryan Shuck used "on tour/on stage." 

So, I believe, I have been a very patient customer, but all you've provided me was information I have already found on the internet myself through my own investigation, and from "hearsay" of how the guitar was obtained by Guitar Max. You have not provided me with any sufficient evidence, that Ryan Shuck was the previous owner of this guitar, other than the fact that you guys spoke with a LACS representative and he quoted Ryan saying "he didn't know exactly" where the guitar is but did own one. I am upset because I have spent $7000.00 on a guitar that you cannot even provide any supporting documentation to what this guitar even is. I don't even know if this guitar is even a real authentic Ibanez itself, or just a replica made by luthier and passed on as an authentic Ibanez. Not to mention I was worried of a legal debacle, where I could possibly be out $7000.00, for something not worth that much. I had to go and bother Ryan Shuck himself to get any kind of information on this guitar, because you guys just couldn't provide that to me. Again, that's a reason why I posted about this guitar on the forum, for reasons like this, if it is indeed just a replica, it can no longer be passed off as the real thing, as to create awareness for things like this. 

This is why I am angry, because I want to end this day-by-day emailing, where you guy's have not taken any initiative to settle anything and make me a happy customer (I got a hold of Ryan Shuck, you guys have yet to get in contact with him, or any Ibanez/LACS reps):
-I paid $7000.00 that I thought was going to hold a lot of sentimental value to me, because it belonged to a person I looked up to musically, which is why I spent that much on this "LACS"
-It has caused me stress, and sleepless nights because I thought to believe I either owned stolen property, or a fake guitar (which you have yet to provide any documentation of authenticity for this guitar)
-I had to reach out to pester and bother Ryan Shuck himself, to get any kind of information
-You guys haven't even provided the idea of some kind of refund, since the price for this guitar was set at a value in accordance to if he owned the guitar, so if it's not associated with Ryan himself, other than it's replica, the item is overpriced do to false advertising

This is what I am asking, since the reputation of the guitar is ruined, due to not being owned by Ryan Shuck himself, and if I were even to resell this guitar the price I paid for this guitar is not even anything close to what it is worth. I would like a refund of $4500.00 USD, which will declare the value of the guitar I purchased from you guys at $2500.00 USD which is the equivalent of purchasing a LACS (not owned by any celebrity) in great condition, which to what I remember, that is close to what you guy's paid for it on Ebay (when initially, you guy's tried to say you paid close to the $7000.00 that I paid for this guitar, another lie.) If you guys are not willing to work with me, I'll give you guys till May 28, 2014 to reach some kind of resolution with me, I will go through with filing the PayPal Fraudulent Claim, since I do have more than a handful of supporting evidence to show that this guitar is clearly not what it was advertised to be. If you don't come to some sort of resolution with me, I have no problem making this case more public to spread awareness of how your business is run, and how you don't want things posted on forums to "ruin your reputation." If your store cannot validate authenticity of musical instruments, people should have the right to know, especially when you guys do purchases internationally and are asking for bank/wire transfers (which makes it almost impossible for the buyer to retrieve the funds back if the item is fraudulent or not advertised to be,) this is the one of the reasons why we post these things on forums, to avoid transactions like these. I have no issue posting these letters (as many people don't either on these forums,) as to show both sides of the story, and to validate how I was treated as a customer and to show how things were handled by both parties. So I suggest you guys do the right thing and stop stalling on this case, and take initiative to resolving this, and representing your business in a good manner (as you guys want it to be.)

Thank you for your time

Sincerely
Sal Cisneros. 
*

*This is her response to my email:*
*
Hi Sal:

We did as much as is humanly possibly to provide proof that the guitar you have was made specfically for Ryan. You can't get much better proof that the word of the luthier who made this guitar to Ryan's personal specifications. Just because you don't have a picture of Ryan playing this guitar, does not in any way mean that Ryan did not play it. It is impossible that when Ryan ordered the guitar and it was made to his specs, that he did not, in fact, play it. He owned it for several years, and it is unlikely that the guitar sat unplayed from 2001 until 2007. That, and you as a guitar owner, collector, and player, know is not realistic. Undoubtedly, he has more than one guitar and he plays them all to some extent. We advertised the guitar as Ibanez 7-String LACS Ryan Shuck, and that is exactly what it is. 

We read some of your comments on 7 String Forum complaining about the cost of the guitar compared to what we paid for it. Let me remind you that we lowered the price initially so that you could afford to buy the guitar which you followed for years. We provided free delivery of the guitar from Europe. Additionally, we covered the cost with your luthier to alter the guitar to your personal settings. Please remember that we bought this guitar 7 years ago and the prices were much less at that time. In addition, we incurred import taxes, shipping, etc. More than likely, in a few years time, the prices will be even higher than now. That is the guitar business. Even the people on 7 String, for the most part, feel you got a good deal, especially when the hardware on the guitar is custom made by LACS. There are only 5 of these bridges in the world. Perhaps Dino told you that he is fortunate enough to have 2 or 3 of the 5. The fact that there are only 5 of these bridges alone distinguishes this guitar and increases its value. Additionally, the guitar was hand-crafted by the best luthier in LACS specifically for Ryan. 

Also, we cannot be responsible for any negative comments on 7 String Forum which might impact your affection for or desire to own the guitar. You have gotten exactly what was advertised and it is a great guitar, you said so yourself more than once. We suggest you disregard negative and baseless comments from people who don't know what they are talking about. 

We don't know why Ryan is saying what he has said to you. Perhaps he got the got the guitar at a time in his life when he was really wild and he doesn't remember much about it. Perhaps he sold it because he needed money and this would be in violation of his agreeement with Ibanez, and perhaps he does not want to admit this. We don't know what his situation might have been. However, the luthier who made this guitar for him remembers it quite well and the serial numbers in LACS records completely confirms this. Any suggestion that this guitar is a copy or knock-off is completely without merit, unsubstantiated, and contrary to the facts in this matter. 

We feel that we have more than substantiated and proved the provenance of this guitar. We believe you have purchased an excellent instrument which you can be sure was made for Ryan, and of which you can be proud to be the owner. 

Carole 
*

*Then she sent another email later:*
*
Sal:

Jacek and I discussed this matter at length this morning and we feel that you have received a wonderful instrument which is exactly what we advertised - a Ryan Shuck LACS guitar. We have proven beyond a doubt that this guitar is authentic and made for Ryan, and this comes from the luthier himself. Throughout this process, from the very beginning, you have tried at every turn to reduce the price of the guitar. We understand that as a buyer, you would want to get the best price that you could. We tried to work with you as best as possible. At this point, and I have previously discussed this with Paypal when you originally filed a dispute, we feel that you are only trying to lower the price. I was told by the Paypal representative, that this happens, not infrequently. It is no longer about the guitar itself, it is only about dollars. Therefore, since we have provided you with proof beyond a reasonable doubt that the guitar is as advertised, if you feel it is necessary to file another claim, we are prepared to dispute this, and we feel strongly that we will prevail. We had hoped that it would not come to this, and we cooperated to the fullest extent to avoid this, but we will not be taken advantage of in this situation. 

We strongly suggest you re-think any decision to file a claim. You should re-read and take to heart all the comments on 7 String (ex: "Well, it is a one of a kind Ibanez. It is worth that much for the right buyer"). This comment and others like it are telling you to stop escalating the drama and enjoy the instrument. We also noticed that you did not put on the Forum how much we cooperated with you and that we had verified the authenticity of the instrument and serial number with LACS. You did not hesitate to share all the other details ofthis situation, but you chose not to share this bit of information. This is not right on your part, and is harmful to our reputation.

Carole Sherman
Jacek Sikora*

*Now im currently going to through a PayPal claim to get my $7,110.53 back. Wish me luck and let&#8217;s hope these crooks don&#8217;t lie to PayPal to get there way.

BTW sorry for the Typo's and bad Grammar. wrote this all on a Ipad as quick as i could in the waiting room of a doctors office. *


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 4, 2014)

Firstly, I hope you're in good health and I wish you the best on your biopsy and future medical issues.  

Though, while I can totally see why this is not the guitar you wanted, you wanted the one owned and played by Ryan Shuck, not just ordered by him. It's looking like this guitar is in fact legitimate. 

From the looks of it, Ryan ordered the guitar at the behest of this Jay guy (sorry, I don't know much about Orgy), and since Jay apparently wasn't an Ibanez artist Ryan said it was for him when it was commissioned. In the eye of Ibanez, whoever commissions the guitar is the owner. 

If I was you, I'd try to get a hold of Jay, and possibly the other guitarist to see if this was one of theirs.


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## Leuchty (Jun 4, 2014)

Holy...shit... So sorry to hear this mate. 

Also sorry to hear about the surgery... Hope all is well.

Good luck with everything!

On the bright side... You spoke to Dino?!?!?!


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## MethDetal (Jun 4, 2014)

... holy shit


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## Les (Jun 4, 2014)

I'm going to play devil's advocate for a minute, don't worry it really is to benefit you...

Most important thing you need to worry about is:

Was this guitar in fact *advertised* to you as "Ryan Shuck's Ibanez guitar" or just a "Ryan Shuck Ibanez Guitar"?

The Guitar Max site simply says "Ibanez LACS 7 String Ryan Shuck - LA Custom Shop"

She did state in her emails that she can confirm it was "made from scratch, for Ryan". Verified by her LACS contact. 

Just be damn sure you were under the impression that you were purchasing a guitar that was actually owned by Ryan Shuck. From the messages from him to you, it sounds like he never owned it, even if it was "made for him". It would be nice if you could get a hold of the Jay guy, like MaxOfMetal said. 

If Guitar Max never advertised it to you as "owned by Ryan" or did anything to convince you that it was Ryan's actual guitar, they may be in the right on this one. Just some food for thought.


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## poopyalligator (Jun 4, 2014)

Ah man. I am really sorry about this situation. First off I just want to say that I hope you are doing well and I hope that your biopsy comes back clear. I really hope that everything goes well with trying to get your money back, luckily they are usually in favor of the buyer if there is anything strange going on.


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## Zado (Jun 4, 2014)

MethDetal said:


> ... holy shit



totally second this man....never read anything as paradoxical as this here on SS.org,looks like a romance to me.Very sorry to hear how awful everything became for the OP,whose behaviour in this situation was really admirable.Hope everything will get fixed properly.


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## Pikka Bird (Jun 4, 2014)

Knowing nothing about what you can and cannot do as an endorsed Ibanez player, I'd suppose you couldn't order something _that_ extravagant as a new/small-time guy in the pen. Non-standard shape, non-standard pickup bobbins, non-standard LED dots, ULTRA rare bridge. No warning klaxons go off in my head telling me that it's a fake. Just think about it- who'd build a 7 string fixed Lo-Pro, the rarest bridge of any in the Ibanez range, to put on a replica of a guitar that has a the basic fixed bridge with the bent base plate?

So in my mind it must've been commisioned by a high-profile endorsee, and of those guys, who'd want to just ape someone else's highly recognizable design?


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## SpaceDock (Jun 4, 2014)

Can you contact the person who sold the guitar on eBay? Maybe just follow the rabbit hole down. Seems like the guitar is LACS, but whose is the big question now.


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## Les (Jun 4, 2014)

Also, may I add that the guitar Ryan sent you pictures of (Ryan's actual guitar) looks like dogshit compared to the one you bought...


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## fellsal88 (Jun 4, 2014)

Les said:


> I'm going to play devil's advocate for a minute, don't worry it really is to benefit you...
> 
> Most important thing you need to worry about is:
> 
> ...






MaxOfMetal said:


> Firstly, I hope you're in good health and I wish you the best on your biopsy and future medical issues.
> 
> Though, while I can totally see why this is not the guitar you wanted, you wanted the one owned and played by Ryan Shuck, not just ordered by him. It's looking like this guitar is in fact legitimate.
> 
> ...



Before i purchased the guitar i had several conversations over the phone with Carole and the Owner of Guitar Max. They guaranteed and promised me that this was Ryan's guitar. Also they told me they had paperwork stating Ryan sold them this guitar. When i received the guitar, it was in pretty bad non functioning condition. So i filed a partial claim with PayPal to inform them of this. This was prior to me finding out anything of the guitar's current status. 

*Heres a text message conversation that occurred between me and Carole about the guitars condition. 
*























Zado said:


> totally second this man....never read anything as paradoxical as this here on SS.org,looks like a romance to me.Very sorry to hear how awful everything became for the OP,whose behaviour in this situation was really admirable.Hope everything will get fixed properly.



*Thank You. your words and everyones positiveness on here means the world to me. So Thank You Everyone for Wonderful Support on here.*


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## Lorcan Ward (Jun 4, 2014)

Thats awesome you got to chat with Dino. He sounds like a really cool guy to help you out and its great to see Ryan looked through storage to find the guitar you thought you bought.

Hopefully you get it all sorted out. Since Ryan has that guitar in storage the last ? years you could probably persuade him to sell it for the right price.


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## Cloudy (Jun 4, 2014)

Another guitar store I wont be giving my money to 

They're treating you like shit and you don't deserve it. Hope you win that claim and run into no medical complications in the future as well. After this shitstorm you definitely deserve it.


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## Les (Jun 4, 2014)

AW YISSSS then your golden!!!! Save those screenshots, it's clear as day, it even says "stage used" and "when we got it from Ryan". Glad you have proof of them actually saying that crap. No more playing nice with these deceptive clowns!!!


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## DevinShidaker (Jun 4, 2014)

This whole thing sucks, and sorry to get slightly off topic, but you should really delete the pics of the serial number sticker from Dino's guitar. Counterfeit builders love stumbling upon stuff like that to make their fake stuff appear more real.


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## Noxon (Jun 4, 2014)

Keep your head up, man. It'll all work out. Stay diligent. Good luck with you biopsy results!


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## nikt (Jun 5, 2014)

DevinShidaker said:


> This whole thing sucks, and sorry to get slightly off topic, but you should really delete the pics of the serial number sticker from Dino's guitar. Counterfeit builders love stumbling upon stuff like that to make their fake stuff appear more real.



+1 to that

Also my question. Is posting private address like that is legal in USA? It isn't in Poland


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## Tesla (Jun 5, 2014)

Seriously though, I'm rooting for you man. 7 G's is a lot to spend on a false promise.


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## Herrick (Jun 5, 2014)

Fellsal88 mang, it's good that you have the conversations where the guitar store lady said it was definitely Shuk's guitar sold directly by him and the one where he says it was never his. It's hard to argue with that evidence. However, the one thing that worries me is the serial number issue. If that number really confirms that the guitar was made for Shuk, then that could be a problem for your case regardless if he never played it.

The guitar store lady said you should keep the guitar & quoted a post stating the guitar is worth it to the right buyer. Well...if this guitar was never really played by Shuk then you're not the right buyer. So they should give you a refund.


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## mnemonic (Jun 5, 2014)

> However, the luthier who made this guitar for him remembers it quite well and the serial numbers in LACS records completely confirms this.



Did they ever give any proof of this or were they just like, "yeah we spoke to the guy, trust us."

She spouts alot of clearly wrong crap in her last email so I wouldn't trust a thing she says.



> We did as much as is humanly possibly to provide proof that the guitar you have was made specfically for Ryan



wrong, they didn't try contacting Ryan



> Even the people on 7 String, for the most part, feel you got a good deal,



except the part where most people in the thread said it was overpriced



> There are only 5 of these bridges in the world



I'd like to see a source on that 



> We don't know why Ryan is saying what he has said to you. Perhaps he got the got the guitar at a time in his life when he was really wild and he doesn't remember much about it. Perhaps he sold it because he needed money and this would be in violation of his agreeement with Ibanez, and perhaps he does not want to admit this.



trash talk your guitar hero, sure-fire way to win you over.




Hope you win the paypal claim. I'm sure you will, you basically have Ryan himself saying it isn't/wasn't his guitar.


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## TraE (Jun 5, 2014)

This is a clusterf--k... I genuinely feel for you, OP. I'm sure you never would have spent that money without KNOWING that it was owned and played by a personal icon of yours. Based off of the e-mails with Carole, I would never do business with such a company. Rule #1: Even if the customer isn't right, the customer is always right. The first thing they should have offered you was to return the guitar and give you a refund, given it was in the same condition it was sold in.


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## ZXIIIT (Jun 5, 2014)

So this is turning out to be a LACS ordered, but not owned or played by Ryan for someone else based on Ryan's personal LACS?


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## xCaptainx (Jun 5, 2014)

It looks like it. Looks like an LACS ordered by Ryan, but then given to his vocalist? LACS would have simply known it was ordered by Ryan and left it at that. That explains Mike Tafts response (He's an artist relations rep for Ibanez btw. Also it's cool to see Dino working so closely with Ibanez) 

Looks like the shop simply oversold the description, but then again everyone involved may have just known it was 'ordered and owned by Ryan' not knowing that he actually gave it to someone else. Endorsees don't really let the arrangement slide over to friends, so I doubt he was that forthcoming with that internal arrangement. 

Weird situation either way, I'd try wash my hands of it asap especially if you're going through health problems (sorry to hear that btw) Nobody needs this amount of confusing drama connected to what was supposed to be a dream guitar.


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## electriceye (Jun 5, 2014)

Well, first, that's an extraordinary amount of $ to spend on a guitar you didn't have verified first-hand OR saw in person before purchase. Plus, for a band/guitarist no one's heard of...

Anyway, Guitar Max should do the right thing here and simply refund your money and then sort things out on their end. It's clear you weren't sold what was advertised.


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## stevexc (Jun 5, 2014)

electriceye said:


> Plus, for a band/guitarist no one's heard of...



...You've never heard of Orgy?

There's people out there who haven't heard ORGY?


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## cardinal (Jun 5, 2014)

I don't get it. Jay's guitar, in the pics from Ryan, doesn't have the fancy bridge that you can only get through LACS. If it's the same guitar, when was it sent back to LACS to get the bridge? Did I miss that part in the sea of text?


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## xzyryabx (Jun 5, 2014)

The text messages from them and correspondence from Ryan are all you need.
They said it was bought from him and played by him, and now you have proof straight from Ryan that that's not the case. They are now trying to change their tune to "oh we never said he owned it, just that it was his model...". Utter BS and Paypal will see it as such hopefully. No need to try to reason with them anymore as they have shown they are not willing to co-operate, only cover their ass.
Keep it simple man, no need to bring up what they paid for it and all that.
In any case, shady move on their part and their PR person should be fired.


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## Alex Kenivel (Jun 5, 2014)

Guitar Max. 

Going on the "do not deal with" list


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## Dooky (Jun 5, 2014)

Yeah, the guitar is not what they said it is. They've advertised it as if it's a guitar that Ryan's used extensively (studio, tours etc). But from what Ryan has said it sounds like he's hardly even touched the guitar. Guitar Max probably thought someone would buy it and then be none the wiser - didn't bank on Ryan actually seeing the guitar online and then commenting.
Dodgey business on the their part.


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## DanieLibuy (Jun 5, 2014)

Read every single word of this thread and all I can say is: Sh*t mate, I feel really really really sorry for whats happening to you. 

Everyone here, or most of us, LOVE guitars, I mean, we feel real love for these pieces of wood and that store doesn't understand that (...BTW $7k FFS!)

Hope you win the damn claim my friend.

Two things:
1) Couldn't see any pic. 
2) If GuitarMax is reading this: GO F*CK YOURSELF.

Best regards.


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## fortisursus (Jun 5, 2014)

Sounds like Guitar Max made the original mistake in buying the guitar without appropriate authentication and are passing it on to you. If I ever live in Poland I'll make sure to never buy a guitar from them.


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## fwd0120 (Jun 5, 2014)

Wow, crazy crazy crazy. I (and I am sure many others) haven't had a chance to read the entire thread. In a TLDR, is this guitar Stolen, or a LACS intended for somebody else, or??? Sorry if I missed it - this is a huge chunk of time and text, and this is the first time I have checked the thread since it was 3 pages long.


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## DanieLibuy (Jun 5, 2014)

fwd0120 said:


> Wow, crazy crazy crazy. I (and I am sure many others) haven't had a chance to read the entire thread. In a TLDR, is this guitar Stolen, or a LACS intended for somebody else, or??? Sorry if I missed it - this is a huge chunk of time and text, and this is the first time I have checked the thread since it was 3 pages long.



Read the entire thread mate. Really, it's crazy.

Regards.


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## fellsal88 (Jun 5, 2014)

Looks like i Exceeded the bandwidth limit on the image hosting site. thats why none of the pictures are showing. is there anyway to edit the original first post? so i can make the pictures available again.

a lil help please..


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## stevexc (Jun 5, 2014)

48 hour edit time limit, unfortunately  Toss them into an imgur gallery and post the link in a new post I suppose.


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## MFB (Jun 5, 2014)

stevexc said:


> ...You've never heard of Orgy?
> 
> There's people out there who haven't heard ORGY?



They had like, one song that was a "hit" around 99/'00 and even that was a cover of another song so ...yeah, not surprised they haven't heard/remember ORGY


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## Suho (Jun 5, 2014)

First, best wishes for your health.

Next, why is Carole in Pennsylvania when you bought it from Poland or wherever? 

Third, in one of the texts didn't she say they would be on the phone with ebay by that afternoon, presumably to verify the seller of the guitar to them in their original purchase? Maybe I read that wrong, but if I didn't, did they ever disclose the results of that conversation?

There is a big difference between built for someone and used or owned by them. While it may or may not violate an Ibanez LACS agreement, this is not relevant to Guitar Max's own statements about its authenticity. Also, I agree that they have only provided "hearsay" information from the LACS luthier. Unless there is some direct email or other statement from him I wouldn't put much stock in their claims. Why did they never reach out to Ryan himself? (The answer seems fairly clear.)

They are also trying to take statements made in this thread out of context in attempting to state, as an alternate justification, that the guitar was worth what you paid regardless of who owned it before.


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## FantasyMetal (Jun 5, 2014)

Best wishes to OP on his health! 

Horror stories like these keep me awake at night. Good luck to the OP on getting this resolved. If there's any justice in this world GuitarMax will pay dearly.


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## Dooky (Jun 5, 2014)

Suho said:


> There is a big difference between built for someone and used or owned by them. While it may or may not violate an Ibanez LACS agreement, this is not relevant to Guitar Max's own statements about its authenticity. Why did they never reach out to Ryan himself? (The answer seems fairly clear.)
> 
> They are also trying to take statements made in this thread out of context in attempting to state, as an alternate justification, that the guitar was worth what you paid regardless of who owned it before.



^^^ Exactly this!


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## Suho (Jun 5, 2014)

Quick update for you: I am a Pennsylvania Attorney (not really relevant) but I started looking up Carole Sherman's info since she is not far away- she is a Pennsylvania attorney according to my quick Google search. Might want to just be aware of that.

At what stage of your purchase, exactly, did she become involved?


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## TheShreddinHand (Jun 5, 2014)

I find it weird that Dino became involved. Almost as if getting a big name to give you a ring would put your mind at ease and get you to drop it. Seems shady.


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## xCaptainx (Jun 6, 2014)

His involvement isn't shady at all. He obviously is extremely knowledgeable about LACS. Mift Taft, the peron Dino referred to, is a U.S Artist Relations manager for Ibanez, so he was definitely giving him the right info. 

All that says to me is that Dino obviously has an extremely close relationship with LACS. He might even assist with administration work for orders with Mike? That in itself wouldn't be suprising, many artists end up working with companies behind the scenes (the current AR rep was the guitarist for Powerman 5000. Felt relavent as we're talking about 90s nu metal bands haha)


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## Suho (Jun 6, 2014)

I don't find Dino's involvement shady, but I do wonder at whose request he got involved?


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## TheShreddinHand (Jun 6, 2014)

xCaptainx said:


> His involvement isn't shady at all. He obviously is extremely knowledgeable about LACS. Mift Taft, the peron Dino referred to, is a U.S Artist Relations manager for Ibanez, so he was definitely giving him the right info.
> 
> All that says to me is that Dino obviously has an extremely close relationship with LACS. He might even assist with administration work for orders with Mike? That in itself wouldn't be suprising, many artists end up working with companies behind the scenes (the current AR rep was the guitarist for Powerman 5000. Felt relavent as we're talking about 90s nu metal bands haha)



For sure, I'm definitely not questioning Dino's knowledge or relationship, but just the motive behind him getting involved and giving Sal a call. Seems like they should have had someone from LACS give Sal a call OR try to contact Ryan as has been previously pointed out.


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## cardinal (Jun 6, 2014)

Sorry, I still don't get this. Maybe I'm slow. So:

1) Dino contacted an Ibanez LACS guy who remembers building the guitar at least at Ryan's request
2) Ryan remembers a guitar ordered for Jay that is similar to the OP's guitar except that it doesn't have the fancy Edge Pro 7 Fixed Whateverthing.
3) Everyone seems to be assuming that therefore the OP's guitar was ordered by Ryan for Jay

#3 does not follow from #2 because the bridges on the guitars are different. Was the guitar sent back to LACS for the new bridge? Wouldn't they remember that? If the guitar wasn't sent back for a new bridge, then where did this one come from, because it's clearly different from the one ordered by Ryan for Jay.

Or am I missing something?


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## xCaptainx (Jun 6, 2014)

TheShreddinHand said:


> Seems like they should have had someone from LACS give Sal a call OR try to contact Ryan as has been previously pointed out.



We're assuming that Dino doesn't already do administrative or relationship management work for LACS. Fear Factory wouldn't be bringing in a crazy amount of money and most artists in that level or similar would probably have a part time income, or something they can do from the road i.e management. I'm assumign here that Dino helps out LACS due to his extensive relationship and experience. 

Plus hey, this was an OLD LACS order, maybe Mike simply contacted Dino for help with this one, as who else would have been around from that era and known Orgy on a personal level?


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## ZXIIIT (Jun 6, 2014)

cardinal said:


> 1) Dino contacted an Ibanez LACS guy who remembers building the guitar at least at Ryan's request
> 2) Ryan remembers a guitar ordered for Jay that is similar to the OP's guitar except that it doesn't have the fancy Edge Pro 7 Fixed Whateverthing.
> 3) Everyone seems to be assuming that therefore the OP's guitar was ordered by Ryan for Jay



Dino helped out in validating that the guitar was a LACS build.

Ryan sent OP pics of his personal LACS guitar, which has a hardtail bridge, OP has a guitar that was ordered by Ryan from LACS, which was built to be roughly the same as Ryan's guitar but has a fixed edge bridge.

At least that's what I took away from all this, lol.

tl;dr: OP bought a LACS guitar commissioned by Ryan Shuck, but not owned or played by him.


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## 7slinger (Jun 6, 2014)

damn what's the next twist in this tale gonna be?

hope your health is cooperating and you're getting good news


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## xzyryabx (Jun 8, 2014)

*MOD EDIT: STOP BUMPING THIS ASKING FOR UPDATES, I'M SURE WHEN THE OP HAS SOMETHING TO ADD HE WILL UPDATE THE THREAD*


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## Sebastian (Jun 18, 2014)

Since I think I have found some interesting video / screenshots I thought I'll post them here:

*Everyone can decide for themselves* if the guitar in the video/screenshots has a chrome locking nut, no swoosh logo and a Big (fixed) chrome Edge Bridge and a mini switch.
I've added screenshots from the same show, in which you can see a different Ibanez with a small fixed bridge and a swoosh logo, and the nut seems to be black.






switch and "big bridge" visible below, 















locking nut





























I think if the bridge would be small, "regular" nut, and there would a swoosh logo you could clearly see it like in this - same show - different guitar



















In my opinion the first guitar looks like the guitar that Sal bought.
Thank You


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## Les (Jun 18, 2014)

^^^ cant tell much at 240p, but that looks like the same bridge for sure, which would make Ryan's previous recollection incorrect, right? ^^^


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## PBGas (Jun 18, 2014)

It looks like the same guitar but hard to tell. Would that mean that Ryan was not being truthful to cover his butt over selling a guitar that he wasn't supposed to sell? That would be pretty low on the scale. Just speculation of course, nothing more.


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## Pikka Bird (Jun 19, 2014)

God damn, man. The plot! It's getting so thick! Fellsal, you must be on quite a rollercoaster ride. You have my sympathy.


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## fellsal88 (Jun 19, 2014)

Sebastian said:


> Since I think I have found some interesting video / screenshots I thought I'll post them here:
> 
> *Everyone can decide for themselves* if the guitar in the video/screenshots has a chrome locking nut, no swoosh logo and a Big (fixed) chrome Edge Bridge and a mini switch.
> I've added screenshots from the same show, in which you can see a different Ibanez with a small fixed bridge and a swoosh logo, and the nut seems to be black.
> ...



Amazing research Man! depressing as F*ck for me, but none the less amazing job man thank you.
Sorry for the lack of updates! I haven't had anything to report. I Sent the guitar back 3 weeks ago and i still haven't received my money. I keep calling Paypal but they keep telling me they are still investigating. Now i don't know what to make of this story anymore. I've Pretty much given up hope on this guitar. It kinda killed me to send it back because.... I kinda fell in love with it even though it wasn't even his. now seeing this new evidence, kinda breaks my heart all over again. ive just been focusing on trying to get better and healthy again. I Just want this nightmare to end!!! Thank you everyone who wished me better health and helped me out on this forum. I cant tell you guys how many times iv'e sat in front of the computer. almost teary eyed because of your guys comments wishing me good health and because im High as Sh*t on pain killers lol


Since i have no update on the guitar. Ill update you on my health. lol

This is my tongue after the tube was removed for my salivary gland.
My Teeth are not normally that yellow. they are yellow because of a terrible mouthwash named "chloral hexidine gluconate". It stains your teeth yellow like you had tartar for years. It was meant for keeping the area clean and sterile since its a open wound. the operation was unsuccessful and im gonna need to have another. Im getting some of my speech back but not all of it. there are still some word i can say correctly because my tongue no longer has a frenulum. Now i run the risk of chocking or swallowing my tongue when i sleep on my back. im scheduled to have another surgery sometime in the future after i recover from this one. 

Picture of tongue 
http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/...uitar/The Final Update/photo7_zps579a0ab3.jpg


Sorry if anyone is grossed out. Ill take it down if it offends anyone.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jun 19, 2014)

Just read through this thread and... I'm not even sure what to say, I'm rarely ever... no, never at a loss for words. Seriously, wtf. And if PayPal doesn't side with you, I'm afraid it might be a very expensive kick in the ass. 

Not to mention, doesn't that mean the store will have been able to profit off of it twice!? Holy shit, Batman.


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## Zado (Jun 19, 2014)

I guess I've never seen a CSI episode as intense and twisted as this story.We have possible theft,a large sum of money,surgery and heavy metal.Damm,one would need popcorns to read this!


I hope your health will get better man,I will offer you a pizza If you come here in Italy,you really deserve it!


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## cardinal (Jun 19, 2014)

Damn dude, hope your health recovers. Mojo sent.

As for the guitar, I've been trying to say that something just isn't adding up. Ryan implied that the guitar you bought as actually this guitar he ordered for his singer, but that guitar didn't have the same bridge as yours. So now it looks like Ryan did actually play this guitar. Bummer you sent it back and double bummer that you sent it back without having refunded money yet...


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## Les (Jun 19, 2014)

Damn, well here's to round two working out better. Look on the bright side, without your toungue's frenulum, you'll be an even better cunning linguist /pun intended...


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## poopyalligator (Jun 19, 2014)

Man that is crazy I really hope everything goes well in your next surgery. Stay strong man! We are wishing the best for you. On a guitar related note that definitely looks like the guitar in question that he was playing.


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## ZXIIIT (Jun 19, 2014)

Wow.







Good luck with your surgery!


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## BusinessMan (Jun 19, 2014)

Never mind.


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## Les (Jun 19, 2014)

Zombie13 said:


> Wow.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Shit just got Shyamalan'd!!!


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## PBGas (Jun 20, 2014)

Man......hope you get healthy again! Does not look like a pleasant time. Keep your chin up and stay positive! We are all pulling for you!


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## fellsal88 (Aug 27, 2014)

****UPDATES****


Ryan Shuck LACS:
*Last time I left an update on this forum, i was in the middle of a Paypal dispute battle with Guitar Max. All i can say is...Those guys are the most amazing scammers/Liars i ever met in my life. I unfortunately Lost the Paypal Dispute with Guitar Max. The reason i lost the dispute against guitar max was because max stated I sent them the guitar altered and in Pieces. Witch is the stupidest F**king lie i ever heard in my life. After that Paypal called me and told me they are denying my claimed because i supposedly voided the "Buyers Protection". I explained to them that i never did any alterations to the guitar. i didn't even changes the strings on it! Paypal explain to me on how Guitar Max provided 3rd party info on how i altered the guitar. they even said that Guitar Max provided pictures that they are not willing to share with me.

A week later after paypals investigation. Guitar Max contacted Paypal and Offered to send me back the guitar because they no longer had use for it since they said "I Destroyed it". I gladly accepted, since i lost all of the 7K to Guitar Max. I told myself, i might as well get something out of it even if is a piece of wood and song strings. So the guitar arrived, and i was expecting the worst. I though i was going to get a box full of scrap wood and some parts. when the UPS guy handed me the box... I noticed it was the same exact box i used to ship it back them.The seal of the box was never even broken. I quickly opened the box and saw the guitar was in the same exact condition i sent it to them. I was soo thankful that i actually got a complete guitar in the same condition. which is sad if you kinda think about it. Then i started to realize that those guys never opened the box to look at the guitar. so that means also they forged thos 3rd party documents about me altering the guitar. I noticed PayPal that I received the guitar in the same exact condition and the documents they provided were fraud. PayPal said is was too late and they closed the case. If I wanted to take any action against them it would have to be legal. So in so many other words I'm completely F***ked. 
*

My health: 
*So far my Heath has not improved. I still have a giant mass under my tongue that keeps coming back after 6 surgeries in the span of 8 months. The mass continues to grow because the salivary ducked is blocked and saliva can't find its way out. I'm suppose to have a surgery on sept 17 of this year. Hopefully it would be the last surgery. After that I have go to therapy to learn how to move the bottom part of my mouth and learn how to use my tongue again. Reason for that is because they can't just take out the mass from my mouth they have to take it out from my neck. Severing and attaching a couple of nerves the give the bottom lip it's mobility. I currently have speech issues at moment, there are still some words I can't properly say anymore. Also it hard meeting new people because everyone thinks I'm drunk. Mainly because when I talk I'm slurring. when really I'm just trying keep saliva from falling out of my mouth. 

So sorry everyone that I haven't been keeping up with the forum lately. Thank you guys soo much with the support. Honestly your guys support has brought me to tears in front of a computer a couple times. Once again sorry for the spell errors it's always on a iPad with autocorrect.

If you have any question I'll be more than happy to answer them. Now that I'm more active online.*


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## Pikka Bird (Aug 27, 2014)

Wow, this is the most crazy twisted thing I ever read on here. Maybe not as drawn out and hopeless as the BRJ debacle, just weird and frustrating as all heck. I can only imagine what it's like to be in such a maze while also having prolonged health issues. Don't even know what to say, but you have all o my sympathy.


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## s4tch (Aug 27, 2014)

Get a lawyer, man.


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## Vrollin (Aug 27, 2014)

How can it be "too late?" Paypal failed to do their job and also failed to provide the guaranteed buyer protection. Not only do you have a case against guitarmax but also paypal for failing to provide a service which they advertise....

I'm with s4tch, get a lawyer and go after paypal themselves now, 7 grand is a lot of money mate, not something to be ignored....


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## Edika (Aug 27, 2014)

This situation would be stressful without the health issues, so I can't imagine what you're going through. I'm sure after at least getting the guitar back it's not a priority to seek legal action but it's a lot of money. I agree with the guys above for going after Paypal. It might be easier to win this than going after a music shop in the other side of the Atlantic. I know it sounds awful and cheap but you could use your health issues in your case against them. Guitar Max didn't have a problem handing out false documents and Paypal didn't have a problem to give you the middle finger even though it was their fault accepting false documentation. You have a legitimate reason for wanting your money back.

EDIT: And of course get well soon which is the most important thing!


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## skisgaar (Aug 27, 2014)

Get a lawyer. Sue the pants of them.

What a bunch of deplorable, lying, scum.


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## Tesla (Aug 27, 2014)

+1 for Lawyer. I know it will cost you more money, but it's gotta be done. Take them to the cleaners. Get damages off them for the stress they've caused you.


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## cardinal (Aug 27, 2014)

That sucks dude. I really hope your health improves. The guitar drama I'm sure makes it worse, because I look to guitars as an escape from stress, not another source of it. 

May be worth talking to a lawyer, bu keep in mind 1) that does appear to be Ryan's guitar according to those concert pics and per Dino and 2) you have it in the condition that you expected when you first bought it. From what's been said, Guitar Max certainly has acted inappropriately, but another issue will be how has it damaged you, since at the end of the day you have the guitar that you thought you were buying in the condition that you expected at the very beginning of all this. Obviously you could argue over any additional shipping charges you incurred and emotional distress (to the extent that it's available as a legal remedy here), but it will turn into a real dispute here, particularly if Guitar Max is willing to stoop as low as has been described. Not an open and shut case. Add on that you'll need to actually trust your lawyer (there are lots of bad ones who will just take your money and sit on their hands). This will be lots more stress.


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## Overtone (Aug 27, 2014)

Paypal are such dicks


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## Louis Cypher (Aug 27, 2014)

This is such an awful situation. Def second all the comments on seeking legal advise (maybe that will actually move the situation in your favor with just the threat of legal proceedings). 

Hope you get it sorted most of all though take care of yourself. 7k is a lot of money of course and it does need sorting and refunded but nothing more important than your health so take good care of yourself first and foremost

Good Luck


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## Cloudy (Aug 27, 2014)

Im thoroughly surprised paypal refused to re-open your case after you informed them the guitar was 100% intact that should have been huge red flags for them.


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## F1Filter (Aug 27, 2014)

Cloudy said:


> Im thoroughly surprised paypal refused to re-open your case after you informed them the guitar was 100% intact that should have been huge red flags for them.



That's exactly what I was thinking. PPal generally tends to side with the buyer when it comes to disputes like this. I've had cases re-opened in the past against some shady dealers (not musicial gear, but still). Never had a problem. 

Not accusing the OP here of any shenanigans. But if PPal sees that you've filed several disputes in the past over medium to large ticket items. They're not going to be as 'lenient' because they're seeing a pattern. Not saying that's the case here. But something to be considered if they're not playing ball.


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## crystallake (Aug 27, 2014)

Sorry to hear about your situation (heath and gear related).

If you've got the motivation, I would advise to take legal action against PayPal and/or Guitar Max. Guitar Max provided fraudulent documents, and you have proof that PayPal accepted these.

$7k isn't something I'd just let be.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 27, 2014)

So apparently now Paypal are just as scummy as ....ing Guitar Max. That is so slimy, I need a shower. I can't believe Paypal sided with them when they didn't even provide legitimate documents to prove their side and you weren't given a chance to prove they were lying.

And no slight at the OP, but I doubt with all the medical bills he can afford a lawyer. Plus Paypal would keep it going until he was broke, destitute and couldn't continue the lawsuit any longer.


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## fellsal88 (Aug 27, 2014)

Thank you everyone for your support. I though about taking legal action against PayPal and guitar max. Then I remembered a couple years ago sued somebody for a car collision and not having insurance. I remember it cost a lot of money and it took a lot of man hours to get a final outcome. Unfortunately money and time is just something I don't have at the moment especially since my surgery is coming up. Believe me taking action against guitar Max and PayPal would be something I would love to do but I just don't have the mobility at the moment due to my condition.


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## PBGas (Aug 27, 2014)

Take care of yourself and your health. I know this is a guitar that you were excited about but at the end of the day it is a piece of wood and a pretty unique one at that. 

You have to work on getting better, not worrying about crap like this.


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## Nlelith (Aug 28, 2014)

Sorry to hear you're in such a bad situation.

So, if you can't afford a lawyer right now, how about taking this story outside of this forum? Like contact media site/TV channel or something, and tell them you have a great story of how paypal supports scammers. Start a petition demanding paypal to re-open the case. Maybe this story will make a hype and paypal will have to take action?


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## downburst82 (Aug 28, 2014)

Wait now he's Banned? did I miss something?

ps: or are you one of those cheeky people that put "Banned" as their title line to mess with people? (but I swear it wasn't there before)

ps: Best of luck with the health issues.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 28, 2014)

downburst82 said:


> Wait now he's Banned? did I miss something?
> 
> ps: or are you one of those cheeky people that put "Banned" as their title line to mess with people? (but I swear it wasn't there before)



It wouldn't grey out his name if he just put it as a title.


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## ZeroS1gnol (Aug 28, 2014)

This thread doesn't cease to amaze me. I feel for OT...At 7K I'd be inclined to just get a ticket and go to the store to get my refund. You might have some losses, but maybe still a nice trip to the EU.


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## simonXsludge (Aug 28, 2014)

Thanks for the update, dude.

Can't believe what you had to go through. If nothing else, Guitar Max's last move proves that they are willing to scam PayPal and their customers. That PayPal would close the case, despite obvious fraud from Guitar Max, is a bit of a shocker.

I guess for the rest of the story, it turns out that you did get the legit guitar from Guitar Max. It appears that Ryan was the guy who started the confusion and apparently didn't even remember all of his guitars?! Maybe he didn't want Ibanez to know he sold the guitar, who knows. It's all a bit sketchy.

However, I hope you're gonna get better soon. Good luck for your next surgery and all the best. You deserve some rest, man.


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## xzyryabx (Aug 28, 2014)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> It wouldn't grey out his name if he just put it as a title.



the plot thickens....


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## stevexc (Aug 28, 2014)

Plot's thinned out, OP just screwed up is all.


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## asher (Aug 28, 2014)

ed: I'm stupid and can't read


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## cardinal (Aug 28, 2014)

I have to say I'm still confused by this (but obviously intrigued; I keep posting in here). It seems absolutely clear that this guitar is what Guitar Max advertized: there are photographs of Ryan Shuck playing what looks exactly like this guitar, and I can't imagine that there's another one out there or that a fake could have that bridge. So I'm not sure why the OP no longer wants it? Because Shuck kinda jerked him around over it? That is unfortunate, but really seems like it was a big misunderstanding or miscommunication.


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## stevexc (Aug 28, 2014)

It was a misunderstanding at first, it seems, but Guitar Max reporting that the returned guitar arrived in pieces seems to push it into fraud territory.


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## simonXsludge (Aug 28, 2014)

stevexc said:


> It was a misunderstanding at first, it seems, but Guitar Max reporting that the returned guitar arrived in pieces seems to push it into fraud territory.


This.


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## Les (Aug 28, 2014)

We have all determined the guitar was Ryan's given the photos and other examples in this thread, right?. OP seems to have the guitar. I think Ryan was just mistaken, OP got support from Dino and LACS themselves. The Guitar is in OP's possession undamaged. I would say let it be... especially if he doesnt have the resources to pursue legal action against Guitarmax and/or Paypal. He is struggling with health issues on top of it all.

Yah, Guitar Max comes off as shady, but in the end OP has his axe. Like PBGas said, its just a pretty piece of wood, and health and well being of course can't be measured monetarily.


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## feraledge (Aug 28, 2014)

I can't believe I read the whole thing (mostly). In the very least, this thread is far more exciting than the VH1 Behind the Music on Orgy that probably shouldn't or wouldn't happen in ten years. This is probably the most extensive discussion about them in some time, even if incidentally. 

But in reading all of this at once, the OP's initial reaction was over the fact that this might have been stolen goods. That's the context that Guitar Max has had to respond to and, in their defense, their position is vilified even after Ryan himself spoke with certainty about not using a guitar that he admitted was built for him by LACS and ostensibly Guitar Max got Dino to call the OP to verify the authenticity. 
This IS the guitar the OP wanted. One built for and used by Ryan. Verification of the initial claims seem like they should have been made or requested at the original sale. It appears through screen shots that the discussion started with claims that it came from Ryan, but the follow up states it was purchased through ebay years ago and we see no more emails. 
BUT this is not the headache the OP wanted. Sorry about your health OP, but while that's something a seller might take into account, they sold a $7K guitar and shipped it across the world for free, your health isn't a part of the consideration for their business's bottom line. They were, after all, right about their claims despite the initial overstatement that the guitar came from Ryan in the first place. But if I owned a guitar shop and remembered the details of an ebay transaction on one guitar 6 or whatever years ago, I'd be amazed. 

GM is probably frustrated and they are having their name dragging through the dirt. I'm sure if this was a local transaction, they probably would've made right, but shipping a guitar to and from Poland definitely isn't "we'll eat this" kind of money. 

If they lied to paypal, that's wrong. Plain and simple. Not to call the OP a liar, but those screen shots would be pretty important since this thread will probably be referenced for it's insanity and it's claims for some time.


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## Tesla (Aug 28, 2014)

I bet this is all just a product of Shuck forgetting he had this guitar, possibly due to being on many a drug and alcohol cocktail in his Orgy days.

The lesson here is - Don't do drugs. Drugs Shuck.


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## feraledge (Aug 28, 2014)

It's worth noting that this situation reaffirms my belief that "owned or played by" statements give an instrument no value unless they are unquestionably verifiable. 
I've sold guitars that I purchased from Misery Signals, Zao, etc, but it's an afterthought to me to mention it during a sale. More like, here's an interesting footnote for the guitar you wanted in it's own right. 
Hell I've had cymbals given to me by Andy Hurley of Fall Out Boy (or as I prefer to say, of killtheslavemaster, race traitor, and Enabler fame). Despite the fact that he's put out 2 of my band's CDs, one of my books, and I can call him, I figured it'd be more of a hassle to sell those based on claims since the work to verify all that is just a long and drawn out process that's not worth doing. 
IMO, if I was going to drop $7K on this guitar from a US musician from a shop in Poland, I'd certainly require more proof of the claim unless the guitar was worth $7K to me regardless of its pedigree.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 28, 2014)

"Drugs Schuck"


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## Xaios (Aug 28, 2014)

feraledge said:


> I've sold guitars that I purchased from Misery Signals, Zao, etc, but it's an afterthought to me to mention it during a sale. More like, here's an interesting footnote for the guitar you wanted in it's own right.



In most cases, I would agree. However, in this specific instance, it's a unique LACS guitar built for a specific player. Heck, it's unique even for a LACS, given the shape. That means that the fact that it was built for a certain guitarist is going to have a lot more consideration here than in a typical transaction.


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## feraledge (Aug 28, 2014)

I believe I speak for nearly all of us in gear nerd land though when I say this: 

The real crime here is that someone could get a personally spec'd out LACS guitar built for them, use it, be unaware of where it disappeared to and only vaguely remember it at all when pried at length about it from a person who it was worth $7K to. 
And to add insult to injury, that person has at least one more sitting unused in a storage locker. Possibly more.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 28, 2014)

feraledge said:


> I believe I speak for nearly all of us in gear nerd land though when I say this:
> 
> The real crime here is that someone could get a personally spec'd out LACS guitar built for them, use it, be unaware of where it disappeared to and only vaguely remember it at all when pried at length about it from a person who it was worth $7K to.
> And to add insult to injury, that person has at least one more sitting unused in a storage locker. Possibly more.



Ace Frehley may've kept his original Budokan guitar under pizza boxes and the original painting for his 1978 solo album under a heating duct getting ....ed up, but at least he remembered his three main Les Pauls [tobacco burst, Budokan and 'black beauty']. And he was drunk and coked up pretty much 24/7. Seriously. Find me 70's backstage footage of Ace without alcohol in his hand and I'll say, "he just sat it down."


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## feraledge (Aug 28, 2014)

Xaios said:


> In most cases, I would agree. However, in this specific instance, it's a unique LACS guitar built for a specific player. Heck, it's unique even for a LACS, given the shape. That means that the fact that it was built for a certain guitarist is going to have a lot more consideration here than in a typical transaction.



True. I wasn't saying it should never be done, just that if I was buying a unique LACS, I'd want to be able to verify its lineage. Which, again, they might have done when they got it 6 years ago or whatever. They were correct in the end.


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## poopyalligator (Sep 2, 2014)

First of all let me say again that I really hope that you start getting better. Sounds like bad times, and I hope that it clears up soon. Second of all if you choose to take legal action against guitar max and paypal I wish the best for you. Although I do have to say that I do in fact believe that I do believe that was the guitar that Ryan Shuck was using in that video that Sebastian posted. So at the end of the day at least you have that if nothing else.


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## Suho (Sep 3, 2014)

I guess there is a lot of disappointment for the OP for several reasons. Schuck's (eventual) response raised more questions than it answered, and is of questionable worth. At the end, the guitar may be legit, but the lies from Guitar Max and their handling of this (not to mention paypal's apparently casual denial of his claim based on no substantiated evidence provided) have no doubt left a sour taste in the OP's mouth. And then there are the health issues...


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## Rev2010 (Sep 5, 2014)

I'm with Cardinal on this. While Guitar Max's actions of forging pics/documents is deplorable, backing up to the original issue and confusion at play it appears this was caused by Ryan Shuck simply having no recollection of the guitar. It's clear that guitar was indeed under his possession at some point in time and used live as per screen-caps have shown. It was verified LACS by Dino and if I recall the builder of it at the LACS no? So GuitarMax then sold him EXACTLY what they claimed no?

But the OP freaked out, which is understandable really given the cost, but probably should have handled the situation differently - which I know very well is hard to do as I too have flipped out about shit on here when I should've just calmed down first.

So I dunno. To me it sounds like he got exactly what he paid for.  Why should they then take it back now? Not trying to be non-understanding to the OP, just going by the facts presented.


Rev.


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## Obsidian Soul (Sep 5, 2014)

Honestly,who else would they find to cough up $7k for a guitar made for Ryan Shuck,a guitarist who played in a band that has now pretty much vanished into obscurity.I never even heard of Orgy until this thread.Guitar Max figured if they took the guitar back God knows when they sell it again,so they had to cheat to keep it out the door and profit from it.It's rather simple logic.


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