# Alleged Murder of Turkish Journalist in Saudi embassy



## Drew (Oct 17, 2018)

This story is kind of nuts - anyone else following it?

tl;dr - Jamal Kashoggi, a former family friend turned critic of the Saudi monarchy, went into the Saudi consulate in Istanbul to file some paperwork to finalize a divorce while his fiancee waited outside. Never came back. The Saudis initially claimed he left and vanished afterwards initially, while the Turks claimed he was killed inside, dismemberred, and his body was carried in suitcases to a waiting van (which they have security video of suitcases being loaded into). Then, when the Turks came forward saying they had audio evidence of the murder, the Saudis changed their story and said that he had been accidentally killed in an interrogation - the Turks subsequentally released audio (recorded on Kashoggi's Apple watch, which was still in syncing range to his iPhone, which was outside with his fiancee) where Saudis allegedly can be heard first cutting off his fingers and then beheading him. Both Trump and the Saudis are now saying the killing was the work of "rogue killers," however the Times has managed to identify one of the suspects as a member of the Saudi royal prince's personal security detail, adding further credence that he was executed by royal order.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/16/world/middleeast/khashoggi-saudi-prince.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/15/...=RelatedCoverage&pgtype=Article&region=Footer

So, we have a gruesome murder of a dissident, and right now the US appears to be helping the Saud family cook up a cover story, against some pretty clear evidence.


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## tedtan (Oct 17, 2018)

Yeah, and it took a couple of weeks and the Turkish recordings to start cooking up the cover story, too.

Why am I not surprised to hear that Trump is getting involved on the wrong side of this?


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## Drew (Oct 17, 2018)

I mean, he seems to be trying to play both sides, saying there will be harsh consequences if there was a murder, but also saying, "he denied it, and I believe him" about the crown prince. It's a weird one for Trump, because he has a well-known soft spot for international strongmen, and this is a fight between two of them. That more than anything should worry us as Americans, maybe...


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## Randy (Oct 17, 2018)

Something people have yet to learn about other people in general, and it's especially true in post-Trump America, is the concept of preference on an individual coming first and facts coming second. Another example of this concept was when there was a mini-civil war going on along the border between Ukraine and Russia, and after it was discovered a number of Russia military types were being seen involved in the conflict, Putin's response was something along the lines of "if that's how Russian soldiers want to spend their free time, then that's their choice".

When it comes down to it, if it's people you're in favor of, the qualify or believability of the excuse doesn't matter on how widely accepted it is among the intended group.

Before this story gets further muddied by the story evolving further, let's not forget that this started with first a denial from Saudi Arabia claiming that the guy was healthy and left on his own, and when the first threats into this were made, their second reaction was threatening the US (it was vague; economically at best, with violence at worst). Those two responses are on the record now, so acting like they didn't know it happened or making a plea for sympathy both took a big hit on their initial approach.


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## narad (Oct 17, 2018)

In post-Trump America when little Jessica comes into the room denying going into the cookie jar, with chocolate all over face, of course we will do our best to find out the person or persons behind the theft of the cookies. As to the allegations that it was Jessica, that's just fake news. She's a darling, a dear friend, a sweetheart of a girl who would never do such a thing.


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## cwhitey2 (Oct 17, 2018)

This whole story is a lying shit show.

I tried to talk to a co worker about this (just a general discussion, no real opinions were presented)...holy mother she went crazy on me. She's a Republican and was ranting on about Democrats and lies I was trying to fill her head with...I quickly realized there would be no conversation on this matter. All I said was 'yeah he went into a building and never left'...

IDC what side you are on, but when journalists are being killed because of an opinion, that's a serious matter, especially if Trump gets involved.


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## vilk (Oct 17, 2018)

Something has always rubbed me the wrong way about our relationship with Saudi Arabia.

Remember when they did 9/11 and then we retaliated by bombing 2 entirely different countries instead?


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## Randy (Oct 17, 2018)

vilk said:


> Remember when they {rich people} did 9/11 and then we retaliated by bombing 2 entirely different countries {poor people} instead?



Altered for clarity.


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## narad (Oct 17, 2018)

vilk said:


> Remember when they did 9/11 and then we retaliated by bombing 2 entirely different countries instead?



Well the targeting systems wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for the dems slashing military spending!


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## Drew (Oct 17, 2018)

narad said:


> In post-Trump America when little Jessica comes into the room denying going into the cookie jar, with chocolate all over face, of course we will do our best to find out the person or persons behind the theft of the cookies. As to the allegations that it was Jessica, that's just fake news. She's a darling, a dear friend, a sweetheart of a girl who would never do such a thing.


Close. In Trump's America, we never believe the woman. If little Billy came into the room with chocolate all over his face, however, then game the fuck on.


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## narad (Oct 17, 2018)

Drew said:


> Close. In Trump's America, we never believe the woman. If little Billy came into the room with chocolate all over his face, however, then game the fuck on.



But always side with the lying bad guy...
but don't side with the woman...
but... woman iss... bad...guy....is ...ERROR covfefe ERROR


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## Drew (Oct 18, 2018)

narad said:


> but... woman iss... bad...guy....is ...ERROR covfefe ERROR


Just insult her looks.


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## tedtan (Oct 18, 2018)

vilk said:


> Something has always rubbed me the wrong way about our relationship with Saudi Arabia.
> 
> Remember when they did 9/11 and then we retaliated by bombing 2 entirely different countries instead?



Yeah, well - oil.


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## vilk (Oct 18, 2018)

tedtan said:


> Yeah, well - oil.


Everyone's been saying this to me since I was 11 years old and still I don't really get it. Lot's of places have oil. Canada has oil, Mexico has oil, USA has oil... isn't it only like a small fraction of the oil we get from Saudi Arabia anyway? I just looked up some pie charts that are telling me 12% from Persian Gulf. But I guess that's probably a lot of money to a few rich assholes. And I guess I do realize that our country is sort of an oligarchy that is ruled by the ultra wealthy from behind the scenes... so maybe I do get it, after all.


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## Randy (Oct 18, 2018)

vilk said:


> Everyone's been saying this to me since I was 11 years old and still I don't really get it. Lot's of places have oil. Canada has oil, Mexico has oil, USA has oil... isn't it only like a small fraction of the oil we get from Saudi Arabia anyway? I just looked up some pie charts that are telling me 12% from Persian Gulf. But I guess that's probably a lot of money to a few rich assholes. And I guess I do realize that our country is sort of an oligarchy that is ruled by the ultra wealthy from behind the scenes... so maybe I do get it, after all.



Speaking way out of my paygrade but I believe the concept revolves around the idea of oil as a commodity and that the value of MY oil that I pump out of my ground is dictated by how much oil YOU pump out of your ground and what you choose to charge for it. Even if only a percentage of the oil we use comes from a specific country in the middle east, OPEC still dictates what we're paying when we import from wherever really, and likewise what we're able to charge when we sell our own as well. 

So in that sense, the oil thing is less about seizing it as a resource and more about being able to use it to dictate what everyone pays for their oil everywhere. I think.


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## Drew (Oct 18, 2018)

Randy said:


> Speaking way out of my paygrade but I believe the concept revolves around the idea of oil as a commodity and that the value of MY oil that I pump out of my ground is dictated by how much oil YOU pump out of your ground and what you choose to charge for it. Even if only a percentage of the oil we use comes from a specific country in the middle east, OPEC still dictates what we're paying when we import from wherever really, and likewise what we're able to charge when we sell our own as well.
> 
> So in that sense, the oil thing is less about seizing it as a resource and more about being able to use it to dictate what everyone pays for their oil everywhere. I think.


This, basically, though with the advent of shale oil fracking, OPEC is increasingly losing their place as the swing producer in oil, and we're gaining more power to move global oil prices by increasing or decreasing production. 

The long term implications of that are going to take some time to tease out, and will depend hugely on US regulatory policy and if we even allow fracking in the future... But, as an easy example, if I were Israel, I would be very, very, very concerned about US oil production increasing.


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## chopeth (Oct 19, 2018)

We deal with the country with less respect for human rights in the world, cutting hands for stealing, hanging people for being homo, lapidating women for alleged adultery... they are in the middle ages but with cell phones. But the rich countries don't care as they get profit from weapons and oil commerce. Hypocrisy.


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## feraledge (Oct 19, 2018)

This story is making headlines, but it feels like there's so much innate indifference in politics that it isn't sinking in. And that's insane. This is a huge story. Yet again asking how this becomes split down to what Trump is saying or not so quickly. 



Randy said:


> So in that sense, the oil thing is less about seizing it as a resource and more about being able to use it to dictate what everyone pays for their oil everywhere. I think.



It's both.



Drew said:


> This, basically, though with the advent of shale oil fracking, OPEC is increasingly losing their place as the swing producer in oil, and we're gaining more power to move global oil prices by increasing or decreasing production.



Shale and conventional crude are tied at the hip. Fracking theoretically only becomes economically feasible when crude is over $50 per barrel, which is why the Peak Oil crowd was dismissive of it even back in 2006 (myself included). It was believed to be too costly until crude skyrocketed and then things shifted.
That said, it's still too costly, but the entire industry is no different than subprime mortgages: a bunch of rights bundled together and sold based off of optimum projections on the best case scenario and assuming the first fracturing works (rarely) and that things go as planned (even more rarely).
OPEC isn't losing their place, they still have it. It's a finite resource and projections are based on a number of shifting understandings, evidenced by OPEC nations vastly increasing their projections at the outset to gain a stronger market share and control. When OPEC opted to cut the price of crude, almost 1000 projected wells in Pennsylvania were dropped overnight (thankfully). It was a power play, but an effective one.

This might seem entirely OT, but it also seems to explain a lot of what is going on here. Trump's immediate deflection is the same kind of manipulation, it's just about jobs and economy, who cares if someone (a US-based journalist) is killed and dismembered in a Saudi consulate? As Pat Robertson says, can't cause this much uproar about one person (Oops, Jesus).
Everything about Trump's alliances and support continues to get wacky. They hype up elections by being afraid of "radical Islamist" gangs imposing Sharia law, only to back an actual monarchy, soaked in oil money, where the legal system is actually based on Sharia law and they executed a goddamn Washington Post journalist.


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## narad (Oct 19, 2018)

feraledge said:


> This is a huge story. Yet again asking how this becomes split down to what Trump is saying or not so quickly.



A huge story. Split down into tiny, suitcase-sized portions so it can be kept out of sight of the mainstream view.


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## Drew (Oct 19, 2018)

feraledge said:


> Shale and conventional crude are tied at the hip. Fracking theoretically only becomes economically feasible when crude is over $50 per barrel, which is why the Peak Oil crowd was dismissive of it even back in 2006 (myself included). It was believed to be too costly until crude skyrocketed and then things shifted.


Couple comments here.

First, the breakeven on shale oil is falling as the technology advances - we're probably looking at more like $40-45 at this point, and unlike deepwater rigs new shale rigs can be brought online fairly fast. I'd say right off the bat, the fact that we're approaching a time where we will have a call-it-$45 ceiling on the price of oil is fairly important.

Second, this speaks to another constraint - oil is getting more expensive to produce, as we predominantly have to turn to harder-to-access sources as easily accessible oil reserves start to become depleted. At present, BP's estimated all-in breakeven price (which, to be fair, includes buyback and dividend service) is around $55/barrel. Saudi Arabia's breakeven for remaining deficit neutral is more like $75, although their out-of-the-ground cost is well below that - most estimates I've seen are around $9-10. The exact price to maximize revenue to the saudis would require some optimization that I don't feel like taking the time to work out, but the short of it is it appears that pricing power HAS shifted to fracking producers, at least in the short term, because the breakeven price for getting shale oil out the ground is very likely lower than 1) for-profit deepwater firms, and 2) the revenue maxing price for the Sauds. If you want to know why Aramco's IPO keeps getting pushed back, well...

tl;dr - I'm not saying I'm a fracking _supporter_ per se - my feelings on the subject are a complex balancing act of international political and domestic environmental concerns - but if you look at the pure market dynamics, as long as fracking isn't outlawed in the US, then we should increasingly expect to become the swing producer in the market.

I mean, I don't know if I feel right sharing Bloomberg screencaps here, exactly, but I'm looking at a chart I just put together of WTI vs Brent crude, and they traded in lockstep until about 2011, at which point suddenly WTI began to get consistently cheaper than Brent. There are some oil export controls here that make unchecked price movements difficult, but the silver lining is the spread between the two is a pretty meaningful indicator that shale oil is pulling the price of oil down domestically, just further than it is internationally (at present the spread is $79 Brent to $69 WTI, about $10/barrel).



feraledge said:


> This might seem entirely OT, but it also seems to explain a lot of what is going on here. Trump's immediate deflection is the same kind of manipulation, it's just about jobs and economy, who cares if someone (a US-based journalist) is killed and dismembered in a Saudi consulate? As Pat Robertson says, can't cause this much uproar about one person (Oops, Jesus).


It's like Stalin's old quip, only in reverse. A million deaths are a statistic, but one death is a tragedy.


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## tedtan (Oct 19, 2018)

vilk said:


> Everyone's been saying this to me since I was 11 years old and still I don't really get it. Lot's of places have oil. Canada has oil, Mexico has oil, USA has oil... isn't it only like a small fraction of the oil we get from Saudi Arabia anyway? I just looked up some pie charts that are telling me 12% from Persian Gulf. But I guess that's probably a lot of money to a few rich assholes. And I guess I do realize that our country is sort of an oligarchy that is ruled by the ultra wealthy from behind the scenes... so maybe I do get it, after all.



Everyone else has beaten me to the punch here, so instead of rehashing what they've said, I'll just add a bit of perspective.

When we think of oil, we tend to think of the production side of things (actually drilling for oil). But from there, that oil needs to be transported, either by pipeline or by ship, to a refinery where it can be processed into something useful (gas/petrol, diesel, heater oil, etc.). Some of that product is sold to us for powering our cars, heating our homes, etc., and some is sold wholesale to the petrochemicals industry and shipped to a petrochem plant where it is further processed into plastics, styrofoam, etc.

All of those activities create and transport products that contribute a great deal to our GDP, drive our economy and create jobs. And pretty much all first and second world countries are dependent upon oil at this point because, while there are alternatives, they are less efficient than oil based products. Given this dependence, there is a lot of demand for oil, which gives those who control access to oil a great deal of power.

To put that into perspective, let's take a brief look into the economics of the oil and gas industry. I'm not going to get very deep into that, just provide a few number to help us put oil in context from an economic perspective.

First, let's take a look at the Fortune Global 500 list, which lists the largest businesses in the world as ranked by their 2017 revenues. Here are the top 10 on that list:

Walmart (retail; $500 billion revenue; 2.3 million employees);
State Grid (power generation; $349 billion; 900,000 employees);
Sinopec (oil & gas; $327 billion; 670,000 employees);
China National Petroleum (oil & gas; $327 billion; 1.5 million employees);
Royal Dutch Shell (oil & gas; $312 billion; 84,000 employees);
Toyota Motors (automobiles; 265 billion; 370,000 employees);
Volkswagon (automobiles; $260 billion; 642,000 employees);
British Petroleum (oil & gas; $245 billion; 74,000 employees);
ExxonMobil (oil & gas; $244 billion; 71,000 employees); and

Bershire Hathaway (various investments and insurance; $242 billion; 377,000 employees).
What does that tell us?

50% of the largest companies in the world are directly involved in the oil and gas industry (3, 4, 5, 8, and 9);
An additional 20% build products that require oil and gas to operate (6 and 7);
Walmart sells gasoline and diesel, along with many products consisting of petroleum or parts made from petroleum (from Vasoline and lemon oil to motor oil to everything made of plastics);
Berkshire Hathaway, as an institutional investor, will at any given time hold investments in various oil and gas based businesses;
I'm not familiar with State Grid, so I assume that they are producing electricity like most power generation companies do, through coal and nuclear, with a bit of wind, solar, and hydro thrown in. (They could be running generators powered by diesel, too, but we'll assume that they are not).
Millions of people depend on the oil and gas industry for their livelihood (and, keep in mind, we are only looking at the top 10 companies in the world here).
Based on that, fully half of the world's top 10 companies are oil and gas producers and refiners and another 40% have their hands in the oil and gas cookie jar in one way or another.

Now, let's take a look at the top economies in the world. I'll link to Wikipedia here, since it contains data from (and links to) the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank, and the United Nations.

Looking at these lists, you'll notice that the top 30-35 or so economies each generate more money in annual GDP than any of the top ten list oil and gas companies do in annual revenues, but when we get to around number 30-35 things get interesting. You'll notice that those oil and gas companies are each generating as much or more revenue in a single year as any of the other 175+ countries in the world generates in GDP. They are literally bigger players on the world stage than the majority of countries are.

And don't forget that those oil and gas companies are funding political campaigns, lobbying congress, taking senators and representatives on lavish trips, providing them high paying jobs after they leave politics (much like the pharmaceuticals and defense industries). Or that these oil and gas companies are blue chip stocks that a great number of investors (including rich powerful investors, both individuals and institutional) rely on to provide some safety and stability within their investment portfolios.

Based on what everyone has said, and this perspective, I hope it clears up the (very powerful) role oil and gas plays in first world countries. And, from there, you can see that those who control this resource (e.g., Saudi Arabia) have a degree of power that they would not have without oil. So when we say one thing and do another in relation to Saudi Arabia, it is because we want to continue utilizing their oil resources at the lowest prices that we can.


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## feraledge (Oct 19, 2018)

Hard to say if this thread is derailing, since geopolitics explain why Trump is propping up the Saudis when it looks like this was a hit called and coordinated from the very top. 



Drew said:


> First, the breakeven on shale oil is falling as the technology advances - we're probably looking at more like $40-45 at this point, and unlike deepwater rigs new shale rigs can be brought online fairly fast. I'd say right off the bat, the fact that we're approaching a time where we will have a call-it-$45 ceiling on the price of oil is fairly important.



For the sake of not making this a thread about the ins and outs of oil, I'll just stick with this one. The technology hasn't really advanced or gotten cheaper. The problem is that the actual costs of fracking are pretty quick hindsight. It's not unlike traditional crude in that regard, but it's more like deepwater extraction in that there are more variables that generally aren't considered or even able of being considered until after the fact. Well production declines are continually proving to be incredibly rapid, so most of the breakeven numbers aren't taking into consideration that well heads peak out in 1-3 years instead of 4-8. 
Also means that considerations aren't made for the cost of explosions caused by people hitting unregulated and unmarked supply and return lines and explosions caused by reverse feeding old pipelines. And on and on. 
Needless to say, I'm against fracking, so consider my view tainted if you want to, but so much of this and all geopolitics is profits on paper and crude spilling on the ground. 
Not to say those numbers don't matter, OPEC and the shale industry use them, but we are seeing areas where a lot of this is emboldened and enacted on nationalist gusto, being the Saudi Arabia of shale or whatever, and the math taints it.


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## Drew (Oct 19, 2018)

feraledge said:


> Needless to say, I'm against fracking, so consider my view tainted if you want to, but so much of this and all geopolitics is profits on paper and crude spilling on the ground.
> Not to say those numbers don't matter, OPEC and the shale industry use them, but we are seeing areas where a lot of this is emboldened and enacted on nationalist gusto, being the Saudi Arabia of shale or whatever, and the math taints it.


No, I agree, whether or not it's a GOOD idea is a completely different question than whether or not it would have an impact on the price of oil if were allowed to run unchecked. I'm not really getting into the former (I guess if push came to shove I'm for, but with extremely tight regulations, but barring that against). 

The numbers I've seen for production declines are more in the realm of a 12-18 month useful life, but the offsetting factor is costs are generally sunk costs rather than ongoing, so there's really no incentive to take production _offline_ once a well is drilled; it tends to keep pressure on pricing even after levels fall below where new wells would become profitable. 

We ARE getting a little far afield, though, but I think (??) we're both in agreement that fracking definitely has some major geopolitical consequences.


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## feraledge (Oct 19, 2018)

Drew said:


> No, I agree, whether or not it's a GOOD idea is a completely different question than whether or not it would have an impact on the price of oil if were allowed to run unchecked. I'm not really getting into the former (I guess if push came to shove I'm for, but with extremely tight regulations, but barring that against).
> 
> The numbers I've seen for production declines are more in the realm of a 12-18 month useful life, but the offsetting factor is costs are generally sunk costs rather than ongoing, so there's really no incentive to take production _offline_ once a well is drilled; it tends to keep pressure on pricing even after levels fall below where new wells would become profitable.
> 
> We ARE getting a little far afield, though, but I think (??) we're both in agreement that fracking definitely has some major geopolitical consequences.


Agreement on that. Also that murdering a journalist should have major consequences.


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## tedtan (Oct 22, 2018)

Well, at least Saudi has admitted that he was killed in their consulate, though their cover story is not particularly credible.

I'm looking forward to see what Edogan has to say tomorrow.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Oct 22, 2018)

Just posting to concur this is absolutely _*mental *_and feels more like the plot of a TV show episode than real life.
I get the more neutral response by the president, but I don't like it. However much distaste I have for the press, this kind of thing is absolutely unacceptabe and should come with *heavy* international consequences. He wasn't even a Saudi-based journalist.


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## tedtan (Oct 23, 2018)

Erdogan didn't really reveal anything new beyond a few details. But those details, 1) the fact that a team from the Saudi consulate scouted two nearby forests the day before Khashoggi was killed, 2) that 12 Saudis, including Saudi generals (note: plural), arrived in Istanbul the day Khashoggi was killed, and 3) the fact that Turkey has evidence that the security cameras were turned off several hours prior to Khashoggi's arrival at the consulate certainly point to premeditation if true.


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## Jacksonluvr636 (Oct 23, 2018)

cwhitey2 said:


> This whole story is a lying shit show.
> 
> I tried to talk to a co worker about this (just a general discussion, no real opinions were presented)...holy mother she went crazy on me. She's a Republican and was ranting on about Democrats and lies I was trying to fill her head with...I quickly realized there would be no conversation on this matter. All I said was 'yeah he went into a building and never left'...
> 
> IDC what side you are on, but when journalists are being killed because of an opinion, that's a serious matter, especially if Trump gets involved.


This is a good example of why being hard right OR hard left is simply bad. 

Whatever happened to opinions based on facts and research? Ridiculous.


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## Jacksonluvr636 (Oct 23, 2018)

narad said:


> But always side with the lying bad guy...
> but don't side with the woman...
> but... woman iss... bad...guy....is ...ERROR covfefe ERROR


Meh, Innocent until proven guilty regardless of gender. Let's not get things twisted.



chopeth said:


> We deal with the country with less respect for human rights in the world, cutting hands for stealing, hanging people for being homo, lapidating women for alleged adultery... they are in the middle ages but with cell phones. But the rich countries don't care as they get profit from weapons and oil commerce. Hypocrisy.


Which is why having SJW's in America is kind of comical.


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## Jacksonluvr636 (Oct 23, 2018)

tedtan said:


> Everyone else has beaten me to the punch here, so instead of rehashing what they've said, I'll just add a bit of perspective.
> 
> When we think of oil, we tend to think of the production side of things (actually drilling for oil). But from there, that oil needs to be transported, either by pipeline or by ship, to a refinery where it can be processed into something useful (gas/petrol, diesel, heater oil, etc.). Some of that product is sold to us for powering our cars, heating our homes, etc., and some is sold wholesale to the petrochemicals industry and shipped to a petrochem plant where it is further processed into plastics, styrofoam, etc.
> 
> ...



Very good post.

I guess it did derail @feraledge but this post is spot on and has IMO everything to do with USA hugging Saudi.


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## NateFalcon (Oct 23, 2018)

What I find comical is the US has been financially backing the Saudis’ war on Yemen for years and Americans could care less (hasn’t been brought up once yet lol)...but one journalist gets murdered in the one of most oppressive countries in the world and all of the sudden people only care because of the negative connotation it puts on Trump and his response...I think when someone uses the term “post Trump” to describe any political climate in a country where oppression, execution and harsh punishments have been law for thousands of years seem oblivious...


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## NateFalcon (Oct 23, 2018)

**


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## Randy (Oct 23, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> What I find comical is the US has been financially backing the Saudis’ war on Yemen for years and Americans could care less (hasn’t been brought up once yet lol)...but one journalist gets murdered in the one of most oppressive countries in the world and all of the sudden people only care because of the negative connotation it puts on Trump and his response...I think when someone uses the term “post Trump” to describe any political climate in a country where oppression, execution and harsh punishments have been law for thousands of years seem oblivious...



There's a universe where it's possible to be disgusted universally by barbaric behavior but too busy, you know, working and raising a family of your own to pour all of your energy trying to, you know, over throw a foreign country single handedly. Events like this just serve as the occasional reminder why none of us go vacationing there. Just because we don't pack up an arsenal and fly over there doesn't make us all hypocrites.


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## narad (Oct 24, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> What I find comical is the US has been financially backing the Saudis’ war on Yemen for years and Americans could care less (hasn’t been brought up once yet lol)...but one journalist gets murdered in the one of most oppressive countries in the world and all of the sudden people only care because of the negative connotation it puts on Trump and his response...I think when someone uses the term “post Trump” to describe any political climate in a country where oppression, execution and harsh punishments have been law for thousands of years seem oblivious...



Just more evidence of contrast between this administration and previous ones. While W was a buffoon, I still would have expected him to take a strong stance in this type of situation. Trump always finds a way to be wishy-washy when the ethical response (following from self-proclaimed American values) would be obvious. 

White supremacist runs over a protester? ~"Well, there was blame on both sides"

Saudis kill a guy? ~"Well, we're friends and I believe him when he says they weren't involved"

Weaksauce.


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## feraledge (Oct 24, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> What I find comical is the US has been financially backing the Saudis’ war on Yemen for years and Americans could care less (hasn’t been brought up once yet lol)...but one journalist gets murdered in the one of most oppressive countries in the world and all of the sudden people only care because of the negative connotation it puts on Trump and his response...I think when someone uses the term “post Trump” to describe any political climate in a country where oppression, execution and harsh punishments have been law for thousands of years seem oblivious...


One of my friend's partner was to be killed by ISIS in Yemen a bit back. Had been held for almost a year, was to be executed immediately. The US did an excavation raid that was botched and he was killed in the incident. Know that I'm an anarchist. I'm against all governments. Obama's administration was in power at the time and the government had asked his family not to make it widely known for some time that he was being held by a number of groups, finally winding up in the hands of ISIS. I also know that Obama was in the situation room when the botched raid took place. So while I have no soft spot for any politician nor any government, know that there's a gulf of difference between a president who was actively involved in trying to thwart the execution of a photojournalist and another captive and a president who blindly tows conspiracy theories and props up a puppet regime just because of one journalist being executed. 

It's my life's work to bring push injustices to the front and make people confront them. Most people genuinely don't know. Two things being awful doesn't make one lesser just because it doesn't catch the headlines. 
But just in case you're missing the clear narrative arch here: journalists (the people who no doubt want everyone to know about the war in Yemen) are the "enemy of the people," a butchered journalist is less important than a vastly overinflated arms deal, a politician who assaults journalists is Trump's "kind of guy," and then "well, it's just one journalist." Yeah, that's a pretty damn big deal. 

I know this is some lame trolling kind of position, but fuck it, I'll bite. Things have been bad for a very long time, yet they're still getting far, far worse. If you want to drag some line about "well you weren't upset about....." then maybe the killing of a journalist should provoke some more outrage from you than your indifference to people being outraged.


----------



## Bentaycanada (Oct 24, 2018)

Does anyone else see where this is leading?.....

Saudi’s have admitted they kidnapped and killed the journalist. Trump acts outraged, even though there’s a very high likelyhood US intelligence helped in some capacity, and they knew all along.

The Saudi’s will now bring out a couple dozen offenders that they will claim acted against the state. A kangaroo court will ensue and they will likely be executed.

A bunch of envoys will be recalled with embassy back n’ forth, and then it’ll be forgotten like Kony 2012.


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## tedtan (Oct 24, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> What I find comical is the US has been financially backing the Saudis’ war on Yemen for years and Americans could care less (hasn’t been brought up once yet lol)...but one journalist gets murdered in the one of most oppressive countries in the world and all of the sudden people only care because of the negative connotation it puts on Trump and his response...I think when someone uses the term “post Trump” to describe any political climate in a country where oppression, execution and harsh punishments have been law for thousands of years seem oblivious...



I work in an engineering company with offices all over the world, including several in the Middle East, and we also have a number of Middle Eastern engineers working with us here in the US, either on work visas or as naturalized citizens. Having spoken with many of them, I am well aware that the Middle East is not a bastion of freedom, equality, humanitarian good will or progressive thinking. But you are missing the point here - Trump has nothing to do with this.

This is not just another case of an oppressive regime oppressing their citizens on their own soil. This was the premeditated murder of a dissident living in a foreign country (Virginia, USA) and committed on foreign soil (Turkey), putting it in the same category as Russia killing former intelligence operatives in the UK. It is an issue in and of itself.


----------



## Drew (Oct 24, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> What I find comical is the US has been financially backing the Saudis’ war on Yemen for years and Americans could care less (hasn’t been brought up once yet lol)...but one journalist gets murdered in the one of most oppressive countries in the world and all of the sudden people only care because of the negative connotation it puts on Trump and his response...I think when someone uses the term “post Trump” to describe any political climate in a country where oppression, execution and harsh punishments have been law for thousands of years seem oblivious...


You had me right up to the point where you said "...because of the negative connotation it puts on Trump." I mean, I think it's clear Trump kind of bungled his initial response, yeah... But this was becoming a pretty big story before Trump weighed in, and the reaction has more to do with how fucking brazen the Saudis were about executing a critic of the state, and less about what Trump thinks about the matter. 

I mean, second time I've referenced this in this thread, but it's the exact inverse of Stalin's famous quip - a million deaths are a statistic, one death is a tragedy.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia (Oct 24, 2018)

Bentaycanada said:


> Does anyone else see where this is leading?.....
> 
> Saudi’s have admitted they kidnapped and killed the journalist. Trump acts outraged, even though *there’s a very high likelyhood US intelligence helped in some capacity*, and they knew all along.


 
Do you have a source for this, or is this just speculation?
Not busting your balls, if you read anything that specifically made you think this I really want to read it too.


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## NateFalcon (Oct 24, 2018)

I think it speaks volumes about how people seem anaware of actual atrocities that have been going on for years (it’s true, nobody mentions it) but ‘smart’ enough to have strong opinions on a polarizing political hot button story in the same place (not to downplay his actual murder). Is this reporters murder fucked up? Sure! But the collective timing of people outraged by Saudi Arabia’s lack of humanity and democracy coupled with the negligence of a war going on while concerned about Saudis’ elections paints a picture that people are only watching (or paying attention to) mainstream, ratings based news it seems. I’m also not pointing out hypocrisy but a lack of awareness and the subsequent reactionary behavior that often comes with it when the light switch is flipped on to a particular event. “Johnny come lately” is the saying I guess that comes to mind. I’m also not trolling or challenging anyone, I’m just passing thoughts on a bigger picture -we seem concerned RIGHT NOW about this event while a defensless country has been getting brutalized by the same people -and WE’RE funding them...when things like this get brought up I find that people quickly change the subject because it’s not the current scope of what they want to talk about yet equally important


----------



## Bentaycanada (Oct 24, 2018)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> Do you have a source for this, or is this just speculation?
> Not busting your balls, if you read anything that specifically made you think this I really want to read it too.



Oh total speculation bs on my part. I just think intelligence services tend to have co-operation on international operations, such as this one. So it wouldn't surprise me if it came out that foreign agencies knew all along.


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## NateFalcon (Oct 24, 2018)

Foreign ambassadors roll around our country committing crimes ALL THE TIME (even homicide), in fact ambassadors and their extended family from particularly middle eastern countries are a nuisance for law enforcement and the US Embassy, and a lot of Senators are being pressed to end diplomatic immunity for often times straight up criminals. NY in particular is frequently slapped with immunity defenses from criminals for being related to a foreign ambassador. I’m getting off track but government sponsored crime has been a frequent problem...it would be cool if it was a solvable problem but unfortunately I don’t think any party or group has what it takes to completely turn around oppressive cultures steeped in thousands of years of routine, obedience and almost universal poverty -short of kicking out every foreign liaison. You can forget about tackling cultural problems in their country lol. It’s a lose-lose for the US to get involved- Iran and N. Korea have thumbed their noses at the US’s political posturing and “stop it” letters for decades so I wouldn’t expect anything less than a bad quality video of a Saudi family member with a funny outfit shaking his finger through a close captioned fire and brimstone taunt essentially telling us to F-off if we pressured to prosecute or threatened sanctions


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## MFB (Oct 24, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> Foreign ambassadors roll around our country committing crimes ALL THE TIME (even homicide)



Yeah, you're gonna need to post some statistics to back that claim up


----------



## narad (Oct 25, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> Foreign ambassadors roll around our country committing crimes ALL THE TIME (even homicide), in fact ambassadors and their extended family from particularly middle eastern countries are a nuisance for law enforcement and the US Embassy



Yea, like my dad used to run a fruit stand and some middle eastern woman once stole an apple from him to give to some starving child (there's always _some_ story). Well, my dad was about to have her hand for it but then it turned out she was like the princess of agrabah or something and walked away unscathed. You know, like, we lose enough fruit to all these street rats and then even the diplomats get away with it!? Just rubs me the wrong way. Wish I had the power to do something.


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## Flappydoodle (Oct 25, 2018)

tedtan said:


> Well, at least Saudi has admitted that he was killed in their consulate, though their cover story is not particularly credible.
> 
> I'm looking forward to see what Edogan has to say tomorrow.



It tells you what a shitshow this is when you can be looking forward to something Erdogan says. Saudis on one side, and Erdogan on the other. It's hardly a trustworthy collection of people 



Randy said:


> There's a universe where it's possible to be disgusted universally by barbaric behavior but too busy, you know, working and raising a family of your own to pour all of your energy trying to, you know, over throw a foreign country single handedly. Events like this just serve as the occasional reminder why none of us go vacationing there. Just because we don't pack up an arsenal and fly over there doesn't make us all hypocrites.



Tangent time. Fwiw, you CAN'T go as a tourist to much of Saudi, since many cities are off-limits to non-Muslims. To go at all as a tourist, you need to pre-apply for a visa up front. On the form they ask for your religion. Jew or atheist = low chance of entry. If you are a woman traveling alone, no chance. And don't try to be clever by claiming to be Muslim. If you lie about it, and they test you at the airport (ask you to quote from the Quran, in Arabic), you're up shit creek.

Even if you do get in, get ready for absolutely EVERYTHING to stop 5x per day for prayers. Stores literally close for 20-45 mins per time. And don't fuck up by breaking any sort of religious laws - which includes porn on your phone, any pork/pig products, alcohol obviously (though there are bars and prostitutes, lol). Don't talk to anybody incase you break rules about talking to unmarried people. Definitely don't talk to any woman, since you'll probably also get her into trouble for fraternising with you (though it's unlikely you'd encounter any women who aren't with their minder). 

If you are a woman, don't bother - you won't be able to stay at a hotel, eat at a restaurant, go into most stores etc without a male minder (husband, brother or uncle).

If you have the misfortune to be sent for work, make sure you REALLY trust your employer., and make sure that they have sent people to Saudi before. That's because if you are on a working visa, you need an EXIT visa to leave the country, and that must be signed by your employer. So your employer could actually strand you in the country by refusing to sign the paperwork, leaving you completely fucked. (Obviously, this is common for the imported maids/servants where their owner will simply never let them leave).



NateFalcon said:


> I think it speaks volumes about how people seem anaware of actual atrocities that have been going on for years (it’s true, nobody mentions it) but ‘smart’ enough to have strong opinions on a polarizing political hot button story in the same place (not to downplay his actual murder). Is this reporters murder fucked up? Sure! But the collective timing of people outraged by Saudi Arabia’s lack of humanity and democracy coupled with the negligence of a war going on while concerned about Saudis’ elections paints a picture that people are only watching (or paying attention to) mainstream, ratings based news it seems. I’m also not pointing out hypocrisy but a lack of awareness and the subsequent reactionary behavior that often comes with it when the light switch is flipped on to a particular event. “Johnny come lately” is the saying I guess that comes to mind. I’m also not trolling or challenging anyone, I’m just passing thoughts on a bigger picture -we seem concerned RIGHT NOW about this event while a defensless country has been getting brutalized by the same people -and WE’RE funding them...when things like this get brought up I find that people quickly change the subject because it’s not the current scope of what they want to talk about yet equally important



Just to further this, I read an FT article recently which stated that these embassy antics are not that uncommon. Numerous Saudi citizens in the US, Europe and elsewhere have reported being asked to "pop into the consulate" to sign paperwork, pick up something etc. If they attend, they are detained, threatened etc. The article quoted numerous Saudi citizens who said they just ignore all the requests because they know what happens to people who go to the appointments.

I think Saudi just fucked up because this guy was a WaPo writer and they underestimated the amount of backlash.


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## Randy (Oct 25, 2018)

MFB said:


> Yeah, you're gonna need to post some statistics to back that claim up



Wasn't this the plot of a Beverly Hills Cop movie?


----------



## MFB (Oct 25, 2018)

narad said:


> Yea, like my dad used to run a fruit stand and some middle eastern woman once stole an apple from him to give to some starving child (there's always _some_ story). Well, my dad was about to have her hand for it but then it turned out she was like the princess of agrabah or something and walked away unscathed. You know, like, we lose enough fruit to all these street rats and then even the diplomats get away with it!? Just rubs me the wrong way. Wish I had the power to do something.



Street rats. They're all street rats!


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## Drew (Oct 25, 2018)

Bentaycanada said:


> Oh total speculation bs on my part. I just think intelligence services tend to have co-operation on international operations, such as this one. So it wouldn't surprise me if it came out that foreign agencies knew all along.


Considering there's been a divide between basically the whole US intelligence community saying "yeah, so the Saudis tortured and executed this guy," and Trump at least for the first few days being quick to attribute it to "rogue murderers" and "Hey, MBS denied it! He gave me a very strong denial!" annd furthermore that this guy was a columnist for the Washington Post at the time, I'm going to go out on a limb and say I'd be comfortable putting a good amount of money on the US NOT being involved in this.



NateFalcon said:


> I think it speaks volumes about how people seem anaware of actual atrocities that have been going on for years (it’s true, nobody mentions it) but ‘smart’ enough to have strong opinions on a polarizing political hot button story in the same place (not to downplay his actual murder). Is this reporters murder fucked up? Sure! But the collective timing of people outraged by Saudi Arabia’s lack of humanity and democracy coupled with the negligence of a war going on while concerned about Saudis’ elections paints a picture that people are only watching (or paying attention to) mainstream, ratings based news it seems. I’m also not pointing out hypocrisy but a lack of awareness and the subsequent reactionary behavior that often comes with it when the light switch is flipped on to a particular event. “Johnny come lately” is the saying I guess that comes to mind. I’m also not trolling or challenging anyone, I’m just passing thoughts on a bigger picture -we seem concerned RIGHT NOW about this event while a defensless country has been getting brutalized by the same people -and WE’RE funding them...when things like this get brought up I find that people quickly change the subject because it’s not the current scope of what they want to talk about yet equally important


Funny, I don't recall reading any of your posts condemning the Saudis' war in Yemen and the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians there - maybe I just happened to miss that thread..?


----------



## tedtan (Oct 25, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> It tells you what a shitshow this is when you can be looking forward to something Erdogan says. Saudis on one side, and Erdogan on the other. It's hardly a trustworthy collection of people



No shit, man! That's not something I ever thought I would express, but sometimes the context and circumstances are just odd.


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## USMarine75 (Oct 25, 2018)

narad said:


> Yea, like my dad used to run a fruit stand and some middle eastern woman once stole an apple from him to give to some starving child (there's always _some_ story). Well, my dad was about to have her hand for it but then it turned out she was like the princess of agrabah or something and walked away unscathed. You know, like, we lose enough fruit to all these street rats and then even the diplomats get away with it!? Just rubs me the wrong way. Wish I had the power to do something.



Cool story. Not a diplomat.



NateFalcon said:


> Foreign ambassadors roll around our country committing crimes ALL THE TIME (even homicide), in fact ambassadors and their extended family from particularly middle eastern countries are a nuisance for law enforcement and the US Embassy, and a lot of Senators are being pressed to end diplomatic immunity for often times straight up criminals. NY in particular is frequently slapped with immunity defenses from criminals for being related to a foreign ambassador. I’m getting off track but government sponsored crime has been a frequent problem...it would be cool if it was a solvable problem but unfortunately I don’t think any party or group has what it takes to completely turn around oppressive cultures steeped in thousands of years of routine, obedience and almost universal poverty -short of kicking out every foreign liaison. You can forget about tackling cultural problems in their country lol. It’s a lose-lose for the US to get involved- Iran and N. Korea have thumbed their noses at the US’s political posturing and “stop it” letters for decades so I wouldn’t expect anything less than a bad quality video of a Saudi family member with a funny outfit shaking his finger through a close captioned fire and brimstone taunt essentially telling us to F-off if we pressured to prosecute or threatened sanctions



No.


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## NateFalcon (Oct 25, 2018)

USMarine75 said:


> Cool story. Not a diplomat.
> 
> 
> 
> No.


Yes.


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## NateFalcon (Oct 25, 2018)

MFB said:


> Yeah, you're gonna need to post some statistics to back that claim up


You’re free to post your own statistics if you’d like to attempt to prove that it’s not true...


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## NateFalcon (Oct 25, 2018)

Drew said:


> Considering there's been a divide between basically the whole US intelligence community saying "yeah, so the Saudis tortured and executed this guy," and Trump at least for the first few days being quick to attribute it to "rogue murderers" and "Hey, MBS denied it! He gave me a very strong denial!" annd furthermore that this guy was a columnist for the Washington Post at the time, I'm going to go out on a limb and say I'd be comfortable putting a good amount of money on the US NOT being involved in this.
> 
> 
> Funny, I don't recall reading any of your posts condemning the Saudis' war in Yemen and the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians there - maybe I just happened to miss that thread..?


I’m also not suddenly outraged or surprised about Saudi Arabia’s behavior...or acting as if there’s any recourse.


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## Xaios (Oct 25, 2018)

Randy said:


> Wasn't this the plot of a Beverly Hills Cop movie?


Also Lethal Weapon 2.


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## NateFalcon (Oct 25, 2018)

A lot of outrage...but no fruition or finality (that makes anyone happy lol) is going to come out of this story


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## Randy (Oct 25, 2018)

Xaios said:


> Also Lethal Weapon 2.



Ah yes, that's what I was thinking of. Based on a true story (from the future).


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## Drew (Oct 25, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> You’re free to post your own statistics if you’d like to attempt to prove that it’s not true...


I don't think that's how this works. You can't make an extremely bold claim, have someone tell you that they're not going to believe you without evidence, and then say _they're _the ones who have to prove you wrong. 



NateFalcon said:


> I’m also not suddenly outraged or surprised about Saudi Arabia’s behavior...or acting as if there’s any recourse.


No - you're very predictably trying to make this about American politics and saying that any outrage for the murder and dismemberment of a journalist employed by a US politician is purely a pretext for faulting Trump for something new.


----------



## ArtDecade (Oct 25, 2018)

narad said:


> Yea, like my dad used to run a fruit stand and some middle eastern woman once stole an apple from him to give to some starving child (there's always _some_ story). Well, my dad was about to have her hand for it but then it turned out she was like the princess of agrabah or something and walked away unscathed. You know, like, we lose enough fruit to all these street rats and then even the diplomats get away with it!? Just rubs me the wrong way. Wish I had the power to do something.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia (Oct 25, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> I think it speaks volumes about how people seem anaware of actual atrocities that have been going on for years (it’s true, nobody mentions it) but ‘smart’ enough to have strong opinions on a polarizing political hot button story in the same place (not to downplay his actual murder). Is this reporters murder fucked up? Sure! But the collective timing of people outraged by Saudi Arabia’s lack of humanity and democracy coupled with the negligence of a war going on while concerned about Saudis’ elections paints a picture that people are only watching (or paying attention to) mainstream, ratings based news it seems. I’m also not pointing out hypocrisy but a lack of awareness and the subsequent reactionary behavior that often comes with it when the light switch is flipped on to a particular event. “Johnny come lately” is the saying I guess that comes to mind. I’m also not trolling or challenging anyone, I’m just passing thoughts on a bigger picture -we seem concerned RIGHT NOW about this event while a defensless country has been getting brutalized by the same people -and WE’RE funding them...when things like this get brought up I find that people quickly change the subject because it’s not the current scope of what they want to talk about yet equally important



Nate I appreciate the sentiment of this post, but the reason I think is pretty clear- and I'm somewhat surprised that you didn't come to the same conclusion yourself, since I believe you've mentioned previously that your wife works in the legal system.

The answer is that after a while, it all starts to be so tiresome. Apathy is a hell of a drug, and after a while, you get worn down enough that things don't fire you up the way they used to.

I don't get worked up about ISIS anymore. That doesn't mean I'm chill with drowning people in cages now, it's just become a fact of life. This happens. There are people out there, right now, being held and executed by all sorts of crazy groups. There is *nothing* I can realistically do about this short of getting my Bad Motherfucker certification, joining some special forces unit, and hoping for a raid. 

The Middle East is a veritable shitstorm of human rights violations, but it has been for _*decades*_. And it isn't changing any time soon, I can get pissed about it all I want, but I can only express my outrage so many times before I'm literally repeating myself. This is such a hot-button issue because this is something new. Oppressive regimes murder journalists. Oppressive regimes do sketchy things with their diplomats. Oppressive regimes lie on the national stage, and oppressive regimes are more likely to be a bit bolder with their antics.
But all of these things don't usually line up like this, this is something "new" in the way that the manner in which this played out was somewhat atypical.


----------



## NateFalcon (Oct 25, 2018)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> Nate I appreciate the sentiment of this post, but the reason I think is pretty clear- and I'm somewhat surprised that you didn't come to the same conclusion yourself, since I believe you've mentioned previously that your wife works in the legal system.
> 
> The answer is that after a while, it all starts to be so tiresome. Apathy is a hell of a drug, and after a while, you get worn down enough that things don't fire you up the way they used to.
> 
> ...


I actually have come to the same conclusion as you stated...I’m not personally worn down from desensitization, it’s more the fact that I’m not surprised. It is atypical but the media is strictly monitored in Saudi Arabia right now so it makes sense (in a bad way) that journalists are extremely vulnerable there and certainly not protected. I don’t think the Saudi Arabian government wanted to make a political statement by killing this guy -they just don’t care that it came to light


----------



## NateFalcon (Oct 25, 2018)

Drew said:


> I don't think that's how this works. You can't make an extremely bold claim, have someone tell you that they're not going to believe you without evidence, and then say _they're _the ones who have to prove you wrong.
> 
> 
> No - you're very predictably trying to make this about American politics and saying that any outrage for the murder and dismemberment of a journalist employed by a US politician is purely a pretext for faulting Trump for something new.


Well that’s how it works with me -its an extremely true fact, not a claim...I couldn’t care less whether you ‘believe’ me or not. Not providing you statistics doesn’t make me a default “liar”, or wrong because you choose to not to look up the facts yourself. Believe me, don’t believe me...(sorry for off-track side points lol)...and you’re right, it’s NOT about American politics but in the FIRST POST you mention Trump helping to “cover it up”...(do I need to provide the screenshot as “proof”? Lol)...so yeah, I’m just going off of YOUR OWN WORDS. Or am I totally wrong?


----------



## StevenC (Oct 25, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> Well that’s how it works with me -its an extremely true fact, not a claim...I couldn’t care less whether you ‘believe’ me or not. Not providing you statistics doesn’t make me a default “liar”, or wrong because you choose to not to look up the facts yourself. Believe me, don’t believe me...(sorry for off-track side points lol)...and you’re right, it’s NOT about American politics but in the FIRST POST you mention Trump helping to “cover it up”...(do I need to provide the screenshot as “proof”? Lol)...so yeah, I’m just going off of YOUR OWN WORDS. Or am I totally wrong?


No good argument has ever included "I'm not providing evidence".

Side not: your alternative use of punctuation hurts my brain.


----------



## NateFalcon (Oct 25, 2018)

StevenC said:


> No good argument has ever included "I'm not providing evidence".
> 
> Side not: your alternative use of punctuation hurts my brain.


The fact is still true...


----------



## NateFalcon (Oct 25, 2018)

It wouldn’t matter if I provided proof or statistics -the same people would more than likely never admit I was correct on a point anyway...


----------



## NateFalcon (Oct 25, 2018)

Lol...I’ll let you guys go back to agreeing with each other in circles and liking each other’s posts


----------



## Xaios (Oct 25, 2018)

Fact: your reasoning is fallacious.

By the arguments you've presented, it is incumbent upon you, the party at whom my argument is directed, rather than me, the person making the argument, to provide proof that I'm wrong. Interestingly, as per the precedent established by this statement:


NateFalcon said:


> It wouldn’t matter if I provided proof or statistics -the same people would more than likely never admit I was correct on a point anyway...


...Even if I were to actually present solid evidence supporting my argument (not that the statements you've already made regarding this topic aren't evidence enough of that), you would probably elect to ignore it anyway.

I'll leave you to it.


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## Randy (Oct 25, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> Lol...I’ll let you guys go back to agreeing with each other in circles and liking each other’s posts



THANK you.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia (Oct 25, 2018)

Randy said:


> THANK you.



I agree with this post.


----------



## Flappydoodle (Oct 25, 2018)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> The Middle East is a veritable shitstorm of human rights violations, but it has been for _*decades*_. And it isn't changing any time soon, I can get pissed about it all I want, but I can only express my outrage so many times before I'm literally repeating myself. This is such a hot-button issue because this is something new. Oppressive regimes murder journalists. Oppressive regimes do sketchy things with their diplomats. Oppressive regimes lie on the national stage, and oppressive regimes are more likely to be a bit bolder with their antics.
> But all of these things don't usually line up like this, this is something "new" in the way that the manner in which this played out was somewhat atypical.



Yup.

I liked Trump when he said we could all get out of the Middle East and leave them to their own devices. That would be fine with me. Not much reason to go there anyway. If we didn't need them for oil, we wouldn't even need to interact with them. I had hoped that by massively boosting US oil and energy production, it would lead to less dependence on the ME. But unfortunately, that is proving not to be the case. Every US president has promised to do something about it, and they all fail. 

Conspiracy theory time: I wonder whether Saudi has some sort of other leverage. Obama wasn't a big fan, but he hardly took a stance against them. Potentially they have nukes, or other WMDs, which means we can't just let them collapse etc.


----------



## narad (Oct 25, 2018)

btw, I actually went through the top 20 articles related to diplomatic immunity crimes in the US. The takeaway? One diplomat accused of sexual assault for rubbing against a woman in the subway, and a few diplomats skipping out on expensive rent. No murder. Not many instances. So file this claim under B for Bullshit.


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## USMarine75 (Oct 26, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> Yes.



No. A "Princess of Agrabah" would be a member of head of state, not a foreign diplomat.

Now if we could just stop all these murdering Ambassadors...






http://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_2_1963.pdf
^Here I posted this so you can be slightly more informed and less of a moron.



narad said:


> btw, I actually went through the top 20 articles related to diplomatic immunity crimes in the US. The takeaway? One diplomat accused of sexual assault for rubbing against a woman in the subway, and a few diplomats skipping out on expensive rent. No murder. Not many instances. So file this claim under B for Bullshit.



Beyond bullshit... it's xenophobic, racist, nationalism... and thinly veiled at that. It's putting the conclusion out there and then just making up facts to support it.


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## narad (Oct 26, 2018)

USMarine75 said:


> No. A "Princess of Agrabah" would be a member of head of state, not a foreign diplomat.



I see, I see. Now what about Ariel. Is she a fish, or is she human? Is it legal to marry her?


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## USMarine75 (Oct 26, 2018)

narad said:


> I see, I see. Now what about Ariel. Is she a fish, or is she human? Is it legal to marry her?



Only the block letter version...


----------



## Drew (Oct 26, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> Well that’s how it works with me -its an extremely true fact, not a claim...I couldn’t care less whether you ‘believe’ me or not. Not providing you statistics doesn’t make me a default “liar”, or wrong because you choose to not to look up the facts yourself. Believe me, don’t believe me...(sorry for off-track side points lol)...and you’re right, it’s NOT about American politics but in the FIRST POST you mention Trump helping to “cover it up”...(do I need to provide the screenshot as “proof”? Lol)...so yeah, I’m just going off of YOUR OWN WORDS. Or am I totally wrong?


With all due respect, you're wrong.  

If you want to make a sensational claim ("foreign ambassadors roll around our country all the time committing crimes, including homicide!"), then it's on you to back that claim up, at least if you want to be taken seriously. It's also not really feasible to prove a negation (what exactly would 100% concrete proof that foreign ambassadors are NOT going on murder sprees in America look like?), which makes this argumentative style of "I believe this absurd thing is true, PROVE ME WRONG!!" even more transparently trolling, and makes me wonder why you're being allowed to participate in this forum in the first place. 

And you're right, in passing, in my OP, I did mention that Trump was denying this was the work of Saudi Arabia. Trump has since backtracked, thankfully. If all you took from my original post was the half sentence that alluded to Trump, at that time, backing the Saudi cover story, then you need to dial back the fixation.


----------



## David Palmer (Nov 4, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> Yup.
> 
> I liked Trump when he said we could all get out of the Middle East and leave them to their own devices. That would be fine with me. Not much reason to go there anyway. If we didn't need them for oil, we wouldn't even need to interact with them. I had hoped that by massively boosting US oil and energy production, it would lead to less dependence on the ME. But unfortunately, that is proving not to be the case. Every US president has promised to do something about it, and they all fail.
> 
> Conspiracy theory time: I wonder whether Saudi has some sort of other leverage. Obama wasn't a big fan, but he hardly took a stance against them. Potentially they have nukes, or other WMDs, which means we can't just let them collapse etc.





The only leverage the Saudis have is their heavy hand on Oil production and its effect on the World Energy market. 

The problem is it's a card that they can only play once. If they decided to act foolishly and push up the price of Oil, the backlash would be catastrophic for them. Sanctions would cripple their Oil dependent economy and with the loss of US/EU support via sanctions, their Military will weaken considerably. 

This would set the stage for a potential conflict with a Russia backed Iran and judging by their ridiculous performance in Yemen, Iran would make short work of Saudi Arabia. 

The Saudis need to remove the Prince, he is clearly a tyrant.


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## Cabinet (Nov 4, 2018)

David Palmer said:


> The only leverage the Saudis have is their heavy hand on Oil production and its effect on the World Energy market.
> 
> The problem is it's a card that they can only play once. If they decided to act foolishly and push up the price of Oil, the backlash would be catastrophic for them. Sanctions would cripple their Oil dependent economy and with the loss of US/EU support via sanctions, their Military will weaken considerably.
> 
> ...


Additionally, Iran seeks a capitalist system like China - open to global trade. If Iran's political future becomes sustainable, it can begin to effectively make use of its resource rich terrain.


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## David Palmer (Nov 10, 2018)

narad said:


> btw, I actually went through the top 20 articles related to diplomatic immunity crimes in the US. The takeaway? One diplomat accused of sexual assault for rubbing against a woman in the subway, and a few diplomats skipping out on expensive rent. No murder. Not many instances. So file this claim under B for Bullshit.



You missed one. Do you recall when Turkeys Recep Tayyiip Erdogan came to the US by invitation of President Trump? If not, I'll recap.. His motorcade stopped next to some anti-Erdogan protesters. About fifteen or twenty goons get out of the cars, and attack the protesters..in front of news cameras. Some of his security guys were arrested but then released via d.i card.

Diplomatic immunity is absolute b.s,imo.


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## David Palmer (Nov 10, 2018)

Cabinet said:


> Additionally, Iran seeks a capitalist system like China - open to global trade. If Iran's political future becomes sustainable, it can begin to effectively make use of its resource rich terrain.




The whole thing with Iran is quite amazing to me. After 9/11, Iran was literally one of the first Countries to pledge support to the US, which was swiftly rejected by the Bush Administration. Nevermind the fundamentalist zombies who attacked the US came from Saudi Arabia. Adding to that, Saudi Arabia's ultra-conservative Sunni message of world domination gifted the world with Isis and continues to spew hate and fear all around the world.

We live in a strange time.


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## narad (Nov 10, 2018)

David Palmer said:


> You missed one. Do you recall when Turkeys Recep Tayyiip Erdogan came to the US by invitation of President Trump? If not, I'll recap.. His motorcade stopped next to some anti-Erdogan protesters. About fifteen or twenty goons get out of the cars, and attack the protesters..in front of news cameras. Some of his security guys were arrested but then released via d.i card.
> 
> Diplomatic immunity is absolute b.s,imo.



Regarding this incident:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clashes_at_the_Turkish_Ambassador's_Residence_in_Washington,_D.C.

On June 6, 2017, the U.S. House of Representatives called for the members of the security detail who were involved in the melee to be brought to justice.[21] The resolution, which passed in a unanimous 397-0 vote, called for "any Turkish security official who directed or participated in efforts by Turkish security forces to suppress peaceful protests outside of the Turkish ambassador's residence" to be charged and prosecuted under U.S. law.[6] The measure was similar to a Senate demand to waive diplomatic immunity for security forces involved in the assault.[21]

Charges were dropped, but not because of immunity.

You are fined 7 narad-minutes for not providing a link, making me Google this, and ultimately not being accurate.


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## David Palmer (Nov 11, 2018)

narad said:


> Regarding this incident:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clashes_at_the_Turkish_Ambassador's_Residence_in_Washington,_D.C.
> 
> On June 6, 2017, the U.S. House of Representatives called for the members of the security detail who were involved in the melee to be brought to justice.[21] The resolution, which passed in a unanimous 397-0 vote, called for "any Turkish security official who directed or participated in efforts by Turkish security forces to suppress peaceful protests outside of the Turkish ambassador's residence" to be charged and prosecuted under U.S. law.[6] The measure was similar to a Senate demand to waive diplomatic immunity for security forces involved in the assault.[21]
> ...





So diplomatic immunity wasn't the reason why agents working on behalf of a foreign regime were not charged with assaulting US citizens, live on television during peaceful protests. I stand corrected. 

I guess it was a blind assumption on my part. It's not every day a mob attacks innocent people, said mob arrested, then released to flee back to their Country of origin.

*throws narad-minutes in trash bin*


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## narad (Nov 11, 2018)

David Palmer said:


> So diplomatic immunity wasn't the reason why agents working on behalf of a foreign regime were not charged with assaulting US citizens, live on television during peaceful protests. I stand corrected.
> 
> I guess it was a blind assumption on my part. It's not every day a mob attacks innocent people, said mob arrested, then released to flee back to their Country of origin.



Just saying that clearly the administration took and was approved for over-riding diplomatic immunity. If they had failed to do so, I would see your point, but that's not what the citation shows happened. Whether they then decided not to press further because of larger political strategies is a separate concern, not related to immunity.



David Palmer said:


> *throws narad-minutes in trash bin*



Hey, that's my job!


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## David Palmer (Nov 11, 2018)

narad said:


> Just saying that clearly the administration took and was approved for over-riding diplomatic immunity. If they had failed to do so, I would see your point, but that's not what the citation shows happened. Whether they then decided not to press further because of larger political strategies is a separate concern, not related to immunity.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, that's my job!




Indeed.

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what happened but I'd wager it was less about political strategy or more about the hassle and the potential embarrassment. 

Turkey would not have shipped their agents back to stand trial, especially with the US still not giving up the Cleric, Gulen.


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## Drew (Nov 12, 2018)

David Palmer said:


> Turkey would not have shipped their agents back to stand trial, especially with the US still not giving up the Cleric, Gulen.


That's a far cry from diplomatic immunity though. That's refusing to extradite citizens to face trial abroad, not refusing to allow them to be charged at all. Which seems like I might be splitting hairs, but if you were one of the thugs and you happened to travel back to the States for some reason, that distinction becomes VERY important.


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## David Palmer (Nov 18, 2018)

Drew said:


> That's a far cry from diplomatic immunity though. That's refusing to extradite citizens to face trial abroad, not refusing to allow them to be charged at all. Which seems like I might be splitting hairs, but if you were one of the thugs and you happened to travel back to the States for some reason, that distinction becomes VERY important.




I agree.. The distinction is clear.


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## Ralyks (Nov 20, 2018)

Now what happens with Trump basically saying he's not going to punish Saudi Arabia at all?


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## Randy (Nov 20, 2018)

More journalists in suitcases?


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## cwhitey2 (Nov 20, 2018)

Im so disappointed with how 'Merica handled/is 'handling' this. Kinda makes me want to puke a bit.


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## spudmunkey (Nov 20, 2018)

I definitely feel more nauseated about this than just about anything since election day. Physically ill.


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## Ralyks (Nov 26, 2018)

I'm pretty pissed. He flat out said "Whats one life to billions of dollars in business?"

If you answered "your soul", congrats. Have a cookie.

And yes, I'm away previous leaders have had shady dealings with the Saudis for a long time. This is just straight up ass kissing.


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## Drew (Nov 26, 2018)

You know, I watched Lethal Weapon 2 for the first time (embarrassingly, lol) this weekend. I think I now know why NateFalcon is so dead set in believing that there are massive amounts of crime being committed in the United States and going unpunished because of "diplomatic immunity." 

If so, well... Diplomatic immunity doesn't work anything like the present it as in Lethal Weapon 2, man.


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## zappatton2 (Nov 26, 2018)

Drew said:


> You know, I watched Lethal Weapon 2 for the first time (embarrassingly, lol) this weekend. I think I now know why NateFalcon is so dead set in believing that there are massive amounts of crime being committed in the United States and going unpunished because of "diplomatic immunity."
> 
> If so, well... Diplomatic immunity doesn't work anything like the present it as in Lethal Weapon 2, man.


_...It's just been revoked._


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## David Palmer (Nov 29, 2018)

Randy said:


> More journalists in suitcases?




HAHAHAHAH


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## David Palmer (Nov 29, 2018)

Ralyks said:


> I'm pretty pissed. He flat out said "Whats one life to billions of dollars in business?"
> 
> If you answered "your soul", congrats. Have a cookie.
> 
> And yes, I'm away previous leaders have had shady dealings with the Saudis for a long time. This is just straight up ass kissing.





I agree. 

It's as if the draining of the swamp is turning into the awakening of the Kraken.


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## Ralyks (Feb 9, 2019)

https://apple.news/Ao4J0yeGTRyKEyOxKZ7LbJQ

Sooooo that's a little disturbing


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 9, 2019)

Ralyks said:


> https://apple.news/Ao4J0yeGTRyKEyOxKZ7LbJQ
> 
> Sooooo that's a little disturbing



But not at all unexpected.


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## Ralyks (Feb 9, 2019)

Oh not at all surprising. Doesn't make it less fucked up.


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