# 11 String+ advice



## axiomIII (Sep 5, 2014)

I was considering this for the 11 string I&#8217;m making, does anyone have any string gauge suggestions? And also for different scales? 

I like to shred at the top hence the smaller and more comfortable scale, also I was thinking an .008 for the high g4, it&#8217;s easier to get hold of &#61514;.

30"------------------(11)------(0F#) 
29.25"/29.5"------(10)-------(0B)
28.5"/28.6"--------(9)--------(1E)
27.5"/27.9"--------(8)--------(1A)
27.25"---------------(7)--------(2D)
26.6"/26.75"/27"--(6)--------(2G)
26.5"-----------------(5)--------(3C)
26.25"----------------(4)--------(3f)
25.75"/25.9"/26.1"-(3)--------(3a)
25.5"------------------(2)-------(4d)
25" ------------------(1)-------(4g)

Or this Variant.
30.25"------------------ (11) ------ (0F#) 
29.5"------------------(10)-------(0B)
28.25"----------------(9)--------(1E)
27.5"------------------(8)--------(1A)
27.5"------------------ (7) -------- (2D)
27.1"-------------------(6)--------(2G)
26.25"-----------------(5)--------(3C)
26&#8221;---------------------(4)--------(3f)
25.9"------------------(3)--------(3a)
25.5"-------------------(2)-------(4d)
24.9" ------------------(1)-------(4g)
or
30.25"------------------ (11) ------ (0F#) or 30.25&#8221;/30.5&#8221;
29.5"------------------(10)-------(0B) or 29.5&#8221;
28.625"----------------(9)--------(1E) or 28.625&#8221;
28"---------------------(8)--------(1A) or 28&#8221;
27.5"------------------ (7) -------- (2D) or 27.5
27"---------------------(6)--------(2G) or 27&#8221;
26.5"------------------(5)--------(3C) or 26.5&#8221;
26.25&#8221;------------------(4)--------(3f) or 26.25&#8221;
25.75"------------------(3)--------(3a) or 26&#8221;
25.5"-------------------(2)-------(4d) or 25.75&#8221;
24.9" ------------------(1)-------(4g) or 25.5&#8221;
By the way does anyone also know a cheap way to cut curved fret slots?
Like Dan from ONI&#8217;s &#8216;E&#8217; scale?

I was considering the scale length pros and cons..
For example, what if we had an ERG/ERB alternative scale?
Like.- 26&#8221;-31&#8221;, 27&#8221;-32&#8221;, (28&#8221;-33&#8221 (29&#8221;-34&#8221 <(ERB) Even with an &#8216;E&#8217; scale, it still could be comfortable over 5 inches of fan.. or maybe reduce the fan to 4&#8221;? Like &#8211; 26&#8221;-30&#8221; or 27&#8221;-31&#8221; just for an ERG though..

My definition of the differences between an 11 string fourth tuned ERG vs. an ERB is- that, usually the ERB sacrifices the high a4/g#4/g4 for a lower note on the other end, like 0C#/0D# and therefore can more comfortably accommodate longer scale length.


I Just Thought, that maybe this is a bit mad&#8230; I mean, I would go for a longer scale length if it weren&#8217;t for the fact that the 4g string that I want to use is an .008 gauge, if I could use it on a longer scale without it snapping or feeling too tight, then I might, if it were worth it.

4.75&#8221;/5&#8221; fan, 2.5&#8221; per side, (from the highest to the lowest string).
The 12th perpendicular fret is 95mm wide.
Nut width (diagonal)- 105mm,
Designated string placements for nut (Diagonal measurements 105mm) .. 1- (3mm), 2- (11mm), 3- (19mm), 4- (27mm), 5- (37mm), 6- (45-47mm), 7- (55-57mm), 8- (65-67mm), 9- (76-79mm), 10- (85-89mm), 11- (96-101mm)..
Neck width at nut (perpendicular) 82mm. Designated string placement for nut (Perpendicular measurements 82mm).. 1- (2mm), 2- (8.5mm), 3- (15mm), 4- (22mm), 5- (30mm), 6- (37-38mm), 7- (44-46mm), 8- (51-53mm), 9- (60-62mm), 10- (68-71mm), 11- (76-80mm)..
Bridge width (diagonal)- 140mm,
Designated string placements for bridge (diagonal measurements 140mm) .. 1- (5mm), 2- (16mm), 3- (28mm), 4- (39mm), 5- (52mm), 6- (64mm), 7- (76mm), 8- (86-89mm), 9- (99-102mm), 10- (115-120mm), 11- (130-135mm)..
Neck width at bridge (perpendicular)- 123mm.
Designated string placements for bridge (perpendicular measurements 123mm).. 1- (5mm), 2- (15mm), 3- (26mm), 4- (36mm), 5- (47-48mm), 6- (58-60mm), 7- (68-70mm), 8- (78-81mm), 9- (89-92mm), 10- (101-105mm) 11- (115-120mm)..
Nut end neck thickness- 18mm
Radius 17&#8221; 
Stainless steel fret wire, about .050 tall... With-
Chunky guitar fret wire 0-24th frets.
Medium or small fret wire from 25th to 36th frets.
And vintage thin banjo/mandolin tall fret wire for the 37th to the 48th frets. (Fret height? .080 wide and .050 tall)


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## Winspear (Sep 5, 2014)

Hey  Regardless of gauge you wish to use for tension preferences, 26" should be the limit for a perfectly safe G4. A semitone bend can still break it at that scale. 
I would sacrifice bending the G4 on this guitar for a longer scale because it's going to be hard to get a good F0# with a reasonable fan span. 26-31 would be my suggestion. Gauges could be like so:

len 26
g4 .008 ckplg == 15.33#
len 26.5
d4 .010 ckplg == 13.96#
len 27
a3 .014 ckplg == 15.94#
len 27.5
f3 .017 ckplg == 15.36#
len 28
c3 .025 ckwng == 18.91#
len 28.5
g2 .035 ckwng == 20.13#
len 29
d2 .045 ckwng == 19.02#
len 29.5
a1 .061 ckwng == 19.65#
len 30
e1 .082 ckwng == 20.48#
len 30.5
b0 .106 ckwng == 19.54#
len 31
f0# .142 ckwnb == 19.92#

This actually works out perfectly which is very cool! 106 is Kaliums current thickest guitar strings - but he just posted yesterday that they are developing tapered strings for guitar up to .142 (intended as a B0 for Bass VI's) - but as you can see this same string would be suitable for a guitar tension F0# on this scale. Very very nice. I kinda want one...haha. Might pay to make it able to take a bass ballend just incase though.

I think the idea of 48 frets is absolutely crazy though haha! If you ask me, around 30 would become barely playable on the standard scale. 48th fret is going to be half the size of existing 24 frets! Scaling the fretwire down towards the top is a neat idea indeed but I think 36 frets is a good idea for the limit, if that. Think about access too - you'd lose quite a lot of body weight with a cutaway that big , which probably isn't the best idea on a 31" 11 string.


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## House74 (Sep 5, 2014)

This is pure madness...which is exactly why I want to see this thing built


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## 7stg (Sep 5, 2014)

Based on my calculations here Quest for Tone scroll down to Maximum Scale length For Given Tuning you are on for the g4 I calculate 25 - 25.8 on the high side would be good. You are at .4545 inches per string at a 5 inch fan which is on the higher side, but it's necessary for what you want to do and some have pushed it even further. 

I would push the high end as long as you are comfortable with and stretch the fan to max comfort too.

I love the 1 step down idea, it gives the most natural notes possible.


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## axiomIII (Sep 8, 2014)

EtherealEntity said:


> Hey  Regardless of gauge you wish to use for tension preferences, 26" should be the limit for a perfectly safe G4. A semitone bend can still break it at that scale.
> I would sacrifice bending the G4 on this guitar for a longer scale because it's going to be hard to get a good F0# with a reasonable fan span. 26-31 would be my suggestion. Gauges could be like so:
> 
> len 26
> ...





7stg said:


> Based on my calculations here Quest for Tone scroll down to Maximum Scale length For Given Tuning you are on for the g4 I calculate 25 - 25.8 on the high side would be good. You are at .4545 inches per string at a 5 inch fan which is on the higher side, but it's necessary for what you want to do and some have pushed it even further.
> 
> I would push the high end as long as you are comfortable with and stretch the fan to max comfort too.
> 
> I love the 1 step down idea, it gives the most natural notes possible.



I do want to bend (g4) it a little. 
The scales I had in mind, Given that I had just worked out how to do 'E' scale style fretting were...

-- (11) ------ (0F#) or 30.5
---(10)-------(0B) or 29.5
---(9)--------(1E) or 28.625
--(8)--------(1A) or 28
-- (7) ------ (2D) or 27.5
--(6)--------(2G) or 27
--(5)--------(3C) or 26.5
-(4)--------(3f) or 26.25
-(3)--------(3a) or 26
--(2)-------(4d) or 25.75
--(1)-------(4g) or 25.5

with a curved fan.

The curved frets COULD be done if the tang on the fret wire was clipped into small slits. I mean, ultimately it is just an elongated and bendy nail with a rounded top. The slots could be cut in small angular straight lines, or small holes for a clipped fret tang. Ether way the fret on top will be curved, with no need for super expensive CNC cutting! 

a home made job but the frets will fit, and I have seen many a guitar with pickups under the finger board.. 

but does anybody know how they sound?

and any cheap alternatives for a 10 string kahler?

long shot, I know!


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## dudeskin (Sep 9, 2014)

im not great at the entire string gauge to tuning to scale length thing, but depending what you want, youd have to think about a 5 inch fan. although it is over a more strings so it cant be as bad as id think.

as for how to do the curved frets, i cant see you having to be that 'ghetto' about it, haha.

it will be difficult for sure, but people make more complex things every day in industries like engineering. its more about the approach. 
if you had a router and the right sized bit and you could be careful, you could make templates for each fret bend and do it that way.

im not great at explaining. doing lots of straights would be aweful lot of work to get it to fit right and tight etc.
as for fret bending, you could probs get close by hand without cutting the tang. maybe even a fret bender with the fret sideways might work close enough. it will take some fettling at the end though.

look forward to seeing more on this.


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## 7stg (Sep 9, 2014)

You could test the feel for the high end at a guitar store. For example find a Prs for 25 inch and ibanez for 25.5.


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## guitarxtc (Sep 9, 2014)

I'm curious how will this finish


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## pondman (Sep 10, 2014)

Just do it


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## axiomIII (Sep 12, 2014)

thanks to everyone, I see the curving as a necessity for what now is a 5.5 inch curved fan, I drew a full design for it, and it seems to work, although canuk Brian was apprehensive, and didn't think it could be done... we shall see... 

adam lacoursiere isnt replying, he only gave me the measurements for this build (at least some.) but he didn't tell me how the bridge strings would be spaced.... so Im not sure it's right...

he could always talk here if he isn't gone of course.


a guitar with pickups under the finger board.. 

but does anybody know how they sound?

and any cheap alternatives for a 10 string kahler?

long shot, I know!


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## axiomIII (Sep 12, 2014)

25.5"-31"

11)- 31"
10)- 30"
9)- 29"
 28.25"
7-) 27.5"
6-) 27" 
5-) 26.6"
4-) 26.25"
3-) 26"
2-) 25.75"
1 -) 25.5"


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## axiomIII (Sep 15, 2014)

I just finished the fret measurements, for every scale length on a calculator. it took all weekend staying up late every night. i will type them up soon, if that is of any use, lets see if I get corrected or if some nice developer chap can guide me in the direction of sort ware that would 've done it for 48 frets and any scale. 

dam, I shuda used fret find or stew mac... grrr, A shame that they don't do curved multiscales:/


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## Durero (Sep 17, 2014)

I don't know if Dan (Oni) does his e-scale fret layouts in Rhino3D but you could try asking him. 

The Grasshopper plugin for Rhino3D could definitely be used to generate such a fret layout but it takes a lot of work to learn the software and do the programming, which may not be worthwhile if you only plan on building one such instrument.

However you implement your curved frets be sure to publicly acknowledge Dan's innovation and development work which proves the effectiveness of the design. The luthiery world is pretty small and innovation always deserves recognition and encouragement.


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## Hollowway (Sep 17, 2014)

Yeah, I'm thinking that F#0 is going to seriously struggle at 30" and even 31". I've played C#1 at 30", and that was just barely acceptable, tone-wise. I feel like you'd need to add some serious length to get down to F#0 and have it remotely usable. There's a reason that no one has done a 13, 14, etc string single course instrument. Theoretically you could use keep using progressively thicker strings as you go lower, but unless you go way longer the sound is muddy with lots of inharmonicity and borderline inaudible.


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## axiomIII (Sep 19, 2014)

thank you s to everyone who is helping build this..

I want to get a recommendation on cheap pickups for this, and the best for price amplification for this, I have heard soo much on cross overs, and separate amps/monitors/cabs I don't know. EQ this, seperate pick up that. 

I was thinking two hbs with a cheap piezo maybe under saddles? how much would all this cost? ERGs are hassle, but in my mind still worth it.

I was recommended by 7stg a load of expensive equip. and also q tuners and lace's pups for 10 and 11 string guitar, said to yeald clarity, and fit on my instrument. under the finger board.


gonna be 7th fret parallel, to be playable, If ADAM can get F#0 on his 11, with a 30.20 scale. then I surely can make the sacrifice for all strings to be on there.


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## Hollowway (Sep 19, 2014)

axiomIII said:


> If ADAM can get F#0 on his 11, with a 30.20 scale. then I surely can make the sacrifice for all strings to be on there.



Yeah, Adam did have it on his, but IIRC it wasn't particularly audible or useful. Do you have a short scale bass you could try a string on to see what it sounds like? I don't have any experience with F#0 at all, much less different scale lengths, so I may well be making a mountain out of a mole hill, but I don't want you to get this thing built just to find out the lowest string isn't working the way you want.


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## 7stg (Sep 19, 2014)

Tho only pickups I know of are lace at 5", q-tuners at 4.5", and blackwater neodymium pickups I am not sure of their largest size. Piezo will not be an inexpensive addition, FMCG may be able to work with you.You mention under the fingerboard, I know Taylor does this, but I do not know any options for that.

Amplification:
Depends on primary use-
Home use - 7" studio monitor plus a sub. On a budget I would go with adam f7 with their subf, or second choice Yamaha hs7 with their subf. This will cover all your amplification and home audio needs. Bigger budget would be Adam a7x or a77x with sub10mkii or sub12.

For gigs and live use - a 3 way+ bass cab good mids are important here or a 3 way pa good highs are important here some are piercing. 
For more on amplification go here Quest for Tone


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## 7stg (Sep 20, 2014)

keep this in mind
Body Shape for Longer Scale guitars for Best Fit

The lower rest needs to be as far forward as possible without limiting fret access. The lower horn should have just enough wood to be structurally sound, centered under the neck pickup is preferred. This makes the neck seem shorter when playing seated.

The butt of the guitar should be cut close to the bridge, at around 1 inch for a 30 inch scale. this makes the neck seem shorter when standing.

The upper horn should approximately be over the 12th fret. This gives a good balance when standing.


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## axiomIII (Sep 23, 2014)

7stg said:


> keep this in mind
> Body Shape for Longer Scale guitars for Best Fit
> 
> The lower rest needs to be as far forward as possible without limiting fret access. The lower horn should have just enough wood to be structurally sound, centered under the neck pickup is preferred. This makes the neck seem shorter when playing seated.
> ...





Hollowway said:


> Yeah, Adam did have it on his, but IIRC it wasn't particularly audible or useful. Do you have a short scale bass you could try a string on to see what it sounds like? I don't have any experience with F#0 at all, much less different scale lengths, so I may well be making a mountain out of a mole hill, but I don't want you to get this thing built just to find out the lowest string isn't working the way you want.




I need I guess all kinds of contributions to the "mad" axe I'm building...

Hell I even considered Krappy, What's their story? are they as bad as their price implies?

Yves Carbonne can play on a 32" scale 12 strings.... If he can do it.... maybe? I can try?...




I also find that tuners at the bridge end could negate the weight inbalance at the headstock. hell I could make it like a fat hollow les paul! with a massive archtop. lol.


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## axiomIII (Sep 23, 2014)

here are some more inspiring pics.

By the way anyone got any idea how to get induvidual roller nut that can take big bass strings as well as treble, I would like adjustable intonation at the nut..
some of these pics include picups under the finger board.


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## axiomIII (Sep 23, 2014)

I wrote to Jerry Aurswald and he said... get this!

Hello 


thank you for your mail.

Such a idea of an instrument with so many strings is really wild...!

MY price range beginns at 12 000 EUR.

To make such a big neck playable and at once strong enough to stay the 
enormous tension, will need some extra good ideas for detail construction.

To your question of having only a neck done, I'm sorry but I do only 
complete instruments.

( that will guarantee the quality and a perfect finish)


Best reguards.


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## axiomIII (Sep 26, 2014)

new scale maybe.... with the curve extreme and perp 7th fret.

35" C#0/D#0
33" etc... 
31.5"
30.5"
29.5"
28.625"
28.25"
27.8"
27.5"
27.25"
27" e4/d4

--------------
11 strings...

after all who needs a a4? or higher? when it is so likely to snap... with whammy use?

and I have 48 frets already, some of those notes are already too much for most. :-}

I have seen seventeen string concept beasts up to c6 with special non cristaline material strings, and I'm thinking. ... why what will be played with that? surely it is not worth it?

also it probably justifies the new scale length on this...


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## ceiling_fan (Sep 26, 2014)

Yeah with 48 frets as it is you aren't sacrificing much high end by not having an extra high string. 

I know his reputation isn't too great, but maybe Etherial guitars would take this on..


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## Hollowway (Sep 26, 2014)

ceiling_fan said:


> I know his reputation isn't too great, but maybe Etherial guitars would take this on..



Or you could, you know, smack your head against the wall repeatedly.


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## ceiling_fan (Sep 26, 2014)

Hollowway said:


> Or you could, you know, smack your head against the wall repeatedly.



That's true. The result could have some finish flaws, though.


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## Hollowway (Sep 26, 2014)

I would bet that John from Doberman guitars would take this on. He's doing my 27-30" multiscale. Prior to that the only person I'd trust with a build like that would have been Tom Drinkwater from Oakland Axe Factory, but he's not doing full on crazy customs anymore.

And I don't mean to hate on Etherial. I would actually LOVE to order from him. But there is just too many loose ends in the builds now for a guy like me (read: someone who has been screwed over by a couple of luthiers already) to trust him with a few thousand bucks.


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## axiomIII (Sep 29, 2014)

I'm sure the new scales should finally be good for the bass strings, not that I minded having them be the compromised part. 

and if anything smacking my head against the wall makes the wall shinny


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## axiomIII (Oct 3, 2014)

Hollowway said:


> I would bet that John from Doberman guitars would take this on. He's doing my 27-30" multiscale. Prior to that the only person I'd trust with a build like that would have been Tom Drinkwater from Oakland Axe Factory, but he's not doing full on crazy customs anymore.
> 
> And I don't mean to hate on Etherial. I would actually LOVE to order from him. But there is just too many loose ends in the builds now for a guy like me (read: someone who has been screwed over by a couple of luthiers already) to trust him with a few thousand bucks.



maybe you could just order a body in ethereal style and do the rest yourself?


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## axiomIII (Oct 3, 2014)

here is a list of the companies I have been asking.... and very few responded, of those that did most ether turned it down flat or deferred me to another company...

Black Water Guitars
Chellee
This guy loves them
Equilibrium Guitars
Manne
Mansons
Myka Guitars
Ormsby
Oakland Axe Factory
Oni
Ran
Rusti Guitars
OVERWATER
Shamray
Sherman
Siggery
Stambaugh Designs
Soloway Guitars
Strictly7
Sword Guitars
Teuffel
Warr Guitar
Xen
PHANTOM
PEDULLA
NEUBAUER-GUITARS
MTD
CARVIN
CHRISTOF KOST
ESH
FURY GUITAR
GB GUITARS
G & L
GUILD
Kinal
LAG
LAKLAND
LE FAY
MODULUS

AC Guitars
Adamovic
Alembic
ANDREAS GUITARS
Bass Mods
Bee Basses
Benavente Guitars
Brubaker Guitars
Cliff Bordwell
Conklin
DBZ Guitars - Electric, Acoustic, and Bass Guitars for Musicians

http://www.nsguitars.co.uk/images/ga...e_up_500px.jpg
Dean
Dingwall - Multiscale
DP Custom
Elrick Bass Guitars
Fbass
FBB Custom Bass Works
Fodera
Galveston
Hanewinckel Guitars
Ibanez Their BTB7 is a great option.
JC Basses

Jerzy Drozd Basses
Ken Smith Basses - retal line 
Knuckle Guitar Works
Letts Basses
Listerud Bass
Mattissonbass
May Custom Basses

Padalka Guitars
Prat Basses
Rondo Music
Roscoe
Rybski
Sandberg
Schecter Guitar Research
Sei Bass
Skjold Design
Spector
Stambaugh Designs
Surine Basses
Tom Clement Basses
Vadim Basses
Warrior Bass
Warwick
Wishbass
Woodo
Wyn Guitars

Celinder Basses
Celinder.com - Contact Us
Fender Guitars Europe
fendereurope.com
Gus Guitars
welcome to the gus guitars website
Ibanez Guitars
Ibanez Guitars, Hollow Bodies, Basses, Acoustics, Amps & Electronics...
Status Graphite
Status Graphite. The finest hand-made graphite basses and guitars. Made in England.
The Gallery (Sei Basses)
Welcome to the Sei Bass Homepage
Warwick Basses
http://www.warwickbass.com
WD Music Products
Guitar Parts UK - WD Music Guitar Parts and Guitar Spares
Jon Randle "Dr and the Medics"
jonrandle.com - Home Page
Legator


I also found this helpful, I know Im missing some on this list! 

all from headless guitar parts resources.
Jon Bondy Creations
Romano Zambon Electric Guitar Plan uses Steinberger tuners in the body.
Henry Olsen&#8217;s MaSh Acoustic Guitar also uses Steinberger tuners in the body but lines them across rather than &#8220;stack&#8221; them like Romano&#8217;s design.
Garncarz Fanned Fret Bass moves the headstock to the back of the bass.
Mammoth Guitars
eric-has-issues.blogspot.com
langleyguitars.com - langleyguitars Resources and Information. This website is for sale!
DGuitarParts.com
Atlansia parts page
Jon Bondy Creations
photos
Bondy Bridge
Homepage | Schaller-Electronic
String Through Top
String Through Exploded View
String-Through Bottom with Comments
String Through Back with Comments
TK Instruments
Chaney Productions &#8211; Banjo
Violin String Adjuster
Atlas of Plucked Instruments &#8211; Europe
Violin Fine Tuners with zither pins
GuitarPartsDepot.com
For examples of ABM guitar parts in use, see the following:
1. Mats Erikson&#8217;s Klein Electric Guitar replica uses ABM single bridges.
2. Chris Forshage&#8217;s ergonomic hollowbody electric guitar uses the more typical ABM bridge.
Bondy Guitar Bridge
Jon Bondy makes a fixed bridge drop in replacement for the Trans-Trem, S-Trem and R-Trem Steinberger bridges. See the article Jon Bondy Headless Guitar Bridge.
ETS Hardware
German guitar parts manufacturer, ETS also makes headless guitar bridges ranging from 4 string to 7 string solutions. They&#8217;re also open to custom solutions. For more, see ETS Headless Guitar Bridge.

Please Tell Me The Website Of Headless Gt. - Solidbody Guitar and Bass Chat - ProjectGuitar.com (post no 7)
Homepage | Schaller-Electronic
DGuitarParts.com
http://stores.shop.ebay.com/CUSTOM-HEADLESS__W0QQ_armrsZ1
http://sirenguitar.web.officelive.com
Chaney Productions &#8211; Banjo
Link to my blog
tuning tailpiece
ETS Headless Guitar Bridge
headless guitar tuning keys
making your own headless guitar tuners

Review another Review. on halo guitars..


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## axiomIII (Oct 3, 2014)

here is a great site and the 9 and 10 strings look great, they also have a novel way of dealing with having no nut..:0)
bee basses

Home























































nice huh?


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## axiomIII (Oct 3, 2014)

Guitars | Brubaker Musical Instruments

these guitars from brubaker are also very attractive..



















































pretty.. just pretty.


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## shikamaru (Oct 6, 2014)

I would love to see those nutless basses being played, some of them look really wicked, but I wonder what they would sound like


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## axiomIII (Oct 6, 2014)

shikamaru said:


> I would love to see those nutless basses being played, some of them look really wicked, but I wonder what they would sound like



well I think the zero fret is keeping the tone good and the extended bit of finger board is holding the strings in from the sides..


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## axiomIII (Oct 6, 2014)

I wanted many opinions on the direction I want to go...

I am making a purple/mauve/lilac nice wood top, semi acoustic

I have pics...

tell me what you all think.

let me know which of the hollow bodies you prefer. I think this will go well with gold hardware..


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## House74 (Oct 6, 2014)

wow, that's interesting, I don't think I ever saw a curved fan before


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## jonajon91 (Oct 7, 2014)

^ Oni guitars ladies and gentlemen.


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## axiomIII (Oct 7, 2014)

and the color? with gold hardware this should look good.


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## axiomIII (Oct 17, 2014)

I just thought! I could glue two bass necks together to make a (from an 'A' width neck) 10 string, and (from two 'B' width necks,) 11 string. slice up the middle and It could be the right length for 48 frets, with the nut width left alone. 
I could fan the bridge with individual saddles, maybe piezo. and then add a 10 string straight vibrato behind them! eliminating the need for a multiscale khaler and making the notes transfer better into the top. as well as accomodating roller saddles and piezo with the whammy!...

and maybe my measurements are wrong but I have noticed that a 35" scale neck has a 24th fret distance that, from the nut measures 666.75 mm. The exact measurement of a 28" scale 48th fret, 666.75 mm....

spooky.. turning a 5 string in to a 28"scale 48 fret 7 string!? or a six into an 8 or 9! etc.. what do you all think? care to correct me?


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## Winspear (Oct 17, 2014)

Putting a tremolo behind single saddles is possible. It's the same idea as a Bigsby with a TOM bridge. Take a look at some photos with those. 
Yes in such a case roller saddles on the individual bridges would make the tuning stability better when using the tremolo. Where would you find single string roller saddles? 
However there is a problem with your idea. The trem would need to be very much recessed to hold sufficient break angle over the saddles. A Bigsby does that with its under the roller design. And with the fan, there is going to be a long distance from the treble saddle to the treble side of the trem, making the break angle even lesser. There wont be enough pressure on the saddles. Likewise piezo saddles on the whammy aren't going to have any pressure on them and wont work - they'd also be completely out of tune as they are outside of the scale length. Like putting piezos on your headstock tuners behind the nut. That part of the string shouldn't even be vibrating when you play, else it sounds annoying (which is why people put foam in such places). It is a construction nightmare haha

I don't get what you're saying about the frets, but here's a drawing





28" 48 fret against 35" 24 fret. Yes the last frets fall into the same place but I don't get the significance? If you wanted to turn a 35" bass into a 28" 48 fret guitar, yes, the fretboard would be the perfect length but all the fretslots would need filling and refretting. Also look at the size of those upper frets. Even on a bass such a number of frets is utterly unplayable. 36 is about the limit on a bass. I'm certain you couldn't even slot the fretboard and find fretwire anywhere near thin enough to use for this. I doubt you could fit a pickup in that gap either considering that bridges never have the intonation point (the red line) on the actual very edge of the bridge. 36 fret basses only just have room for a pickup.

With all due respect and a love for all things crazy, I think you need to scale back your ideas  I'd build a basic hardtail straight-fretwire 11 string with the proposed scale lengths like the ones I suggested and go from there


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## axiomIII (Oct 20, 2014)

EtherealEntity said:


> Putting a tremolo behind single saddles is possible. It's the same idea as a Bigsby with a TOM bridge. Take a look at some photos with those.
> Yes in such a case roller saddles on the individual bridges would make the tuning stability better when using the tremolo. Where would you find single string roller saddles?
> However there is a problem with your idea. The trem would need to be very much recessed to hold sufficient break angle over the saddles. A Bigsby does that with its under the roller design. And with the fan, there is going to be a long distance from the treble saddle to the treble side of the trem, making the break angle even lesser. There wont be enough pressure on the saddles. Likewise piezo saddles on the whammy aren't going to have any pressure on them and wont work - they'd also be completely out of tune as they are outside of the scale length. Like putting piezos on your headstock tuners behind the nut. That part of the string shouldn't even be vibrating when you play, else it sounds annoying (which is why people put foam in such places). It is a construction nightmare haha
> 
> ...



Where would you find single string roller saddles? the question is where do I get them with piezo!

as for string problems relax, I have many a contingency plan  I could use hardware from the nut and bolt shop to hold the strings down with enough pressure with no problems and alternatively I could make the lower strings non vibrato if it really comes down to it. There is enough room for a pick up and two on the low end. If I went for 25.5, as my original scale was. I was said to be able to fit two humbuckers side by side if I went under the fingerboard. but there is no need to here, also it works better than speculation would have people believe. 
no recess required, the whammy does just vibrato and the piezo is left to the hard saddles. the fingerboard is cut off straight like a skerve ten. and the fretting isn't a problem I have seen shorter scale lengths with 51 frets, and Adam lacoursiere had a 30" scale 41 fret with room to spare, I was just coming up with cheap alternatives for usually expensive builds. I should expect that I would need to re-fret it anyway. It is a task unless I purchase two, zero radius fret-less bass neck blanks, which I can! 

there is always room for pickups,
Trust me guys I have been obsessing over this stuff for the best part of a decade, I can make my own parts if it really comes down to it, pick ups and kahlers with a multi scale are expensive. there are always alternatives we just can't afford to be conservative about it, just push on forward. also for frets? .080 wide and .050 tall right Adam? lol like playing a violin but with frets...


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## axiomIII (Oct 21, 2014)

where can I get some bass necks for cheap? specifically and preferably 24 fret j bass style but p bass may be useful to me too. cheap as you can friends! I need to experiment..


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## Prophetable (Oct 21, 2014)

You could probably just pick up some squires off of craigslist for crazy cheap.


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## axiomIII (Oct 24, 2014)

fret find? can it be used to measure the frets on a fingerboard accurately?


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## axiomIII (Oct 24, 2014)

http://www.ekips.org/tools/guitar/f...t[]=0&t[]=0&u=in&sl=multiple&scale=et&o=equal

first string scale length-27.5 but considering 28

last string scale length- 32 but considering 33"

perpendicular fret distance-0.333, (7th) but for the double bass neck the first could be zero 0 just the bridge. the curved one would definitely be 7th though.

string width at the nut 2.71653543

string width at the bridge 3.85826772

overhang- 0.118110236"/3mm

number of frets 48


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## Rusti (Oct 24, 2014)

Hey!
If what you aim to do is to draw curved frets on FretFind im afraid you can't, but you can do it if you have a drawing software.
Are you going to choose each string's scale or are you going to choose the 2 external strings' scales, draw the 2 curves (nut and bridge) and then measure the other scales?


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## axiomIII (Oct 27, 2014)

Rusti said:


> Hey!
> If what you aim to do is to draw curved frets on FretFind im afraid you can't, but you can do it if you have a drawing software.
> Are you going to choose each string's scale or are you going to choose the 2 external strings' scales, draw the 2 curves (nut and bridge) and then measure the other scales?



I was thinking for one build I'm on that individual strings would work in a gradient to the top. 

so-

7th fret perpendicular.

35" C#0/D#0
33" etc... 
31.5"
30.5"
29.5"
28.625"
28.25"
27.8"
27.5"
27.25"
27" e4/d4


I just got the masterful Aaron Spike to make an individual string fret find program for FRETFIND!! Yes my pestering paid off, Sorry about that Aaron! But you can inform anyone who cares to use the, 'Dan from ONI 'E' scale'. That now thanks to his hard work and my tenacity we now have curved, or individual strings as an option. 

tell Dan DPM from ONI! Hell tell everybody It was me! lol
This will make life easier.

http://acspike.github.io/FretFind2D...5&il[]=33&u=in&sl=individual&scale=et&o=equal


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## Rusti (Oct 27, 2014)

Awesome! Didn't know FretFind could do this too  Good to know 
The nut and bridge archs don't look constant as a curve imo, you may want to correct it, or keep it like that since its a small detail.


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## axiomIII (Oct 27, 2014)

Rusti said:


> Awesome! Didn't know FretFind could do this too  Good to know
> The nut and bridge archs don't look constant as a curve imo, you may want to correct it, or keep it like that since its a small detail.



Its ok I know how it is meant to be  the bass end is steeper so the treble end is usable at the nut and bridge for chords and solos, it is a sacrifice of the bass end but it is still usable, it looks right! I am grinning from ear to ear!

the arcs are 33.3-66.6 or there about as it is a 7th perp, they will be different and the bridge will look longer.


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## Rusti (Oct 27, 2014)

Im not sure we're talking about the same thing 
What i mean is this:







The blue line is the curve thats actually at the nut passing through every string.
The red line is a arch with constant curve. That indicates where every string should start imo.
Beding frets to match the red line is easier than bending them to match the blue line.


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## axiomIII (Oct 27, 2014)

Rusti said:


> Im not sure we're talking about the same thing
> What i mean is this:
> 
> 
> ...



If you say so 

what are the scale lengths for that then? :-D

although the inconsistencies are indicitive of intonation too so if the nut did that then of course it would look wobbily.


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## Rusti (Oct 27, 2014)

Had some troubles with the link, copy it all and remove the space after http:



EDIT: The link doesnt work anyway, do it your own changing the scales, you'll notice the difference comparing to the old one:

27
27.16
27.4
27.72
28.17
28.72
29.42
30.29
31.42
33


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## axiomIII (Oct 28, 2014)

Rusti said:


> Had some troubles with the link, copy it all and remove the space after http:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



FretFind2D


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## Rusti (Oct 28, 2014)

Perfect! I cant export the link 
Looks good now


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## Tom Drinkwater (Oct 29, 2014)

Have you thought of making the guitar so it is strung in two regions each with it's own signal path and just running the lower section through a drop tune pedal while stringing it and tuning an octave higher than you intend to hear it? The Digitech Drop looks promising.


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## axiomIII (Oct 31, 2014)

Tom Drinkwater said:


> Have you thought of making the guitar so it is strung in two regions each with it's own signal path and just running the lower section through a drop tune pedal while stringing it and tuning an octave higher than you intend to hear it? The Digitech Drop looks promising.



I thought of separate outputs midi, crossovers and the like. But I've never been that electronically minded TBH. Perhaps you could advice on a good option for some one with limited funds.


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## axiomIII (Nov 3, 2014)

And aren't most pitch shift devices really artificial sounding?


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## axiomIII (Nov 24, 2014)

Any one want to make a thread regarding the sharing of songwriting ideas that I call lyrical union. ?


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## axiomIII (Dec 19, 2014)

new pics, memes.


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## trickae (Jan 2, 2015)

how goes the design man? I don't know if my tips would help but i just ran my eyes over your thread. 

*Scale length/gauge to shred:*
I built a 27' scale 7 string and tuned it to D with 10 gauge Ernie Ball cobalts (stiffer than slinkies) to learn a whole heap of symphony x and it worked nicely. So If you're afraid of a huge fan, see if you can extend the high end beyond 25. 26.5 is an easy middle ground and I honestly don't notice the increased scale length. 27' is pretty tight and great for tone. I found some stretches need a little getting used to but I like the added fret width on the high end. 

*Colours / figures?*
Though some of the super lacquered guitars look pretty, it'll make the guitar sound sterile. I'd go for less lacquer. Secondly I actually prefer lacquered natural finishes of figured wood. Just be sure to pick pieces that won't make it look like furniture. 


*Guitar Shapes:*
I haven't played anything beyond an 8. I've played an Ibanez M8, TAM100, Ibanez 2228 and a strandberg boden 8. I actually preferred the boden shape as the standard superstrats feel too heavy weight wise. Therefore I would actually be inclined to go for the skeervesen shape posted on page 2. Though that meme head stock looks badass that's going to weigh a tonne. 

I would also focus heavily on the neck width and thickness because you have to be able to play it comfortably. I'd recommend getting some sample dimensions from other members on this forum and making a physical mockup either with a block of wood or cardboard if you're in a hurry and see how it feels to move your fingers around it. 

Honestly man I'm not much of an ERG guy, I've played 7 strings for 12 years, 6's for 20, so I had a lot of experience with guitar necks I liked and that suited my playing. My guitar neck was really the ibanez universe 2000 neck shape with a volute from my Jcustom 8507z. In terms of 8 string playing I've jammed to Meshuggah's Catch 33, but I'd like to be able to use the Extended range for longer runs, extended sweeps and extended chord shapes. I didn't spend enough time on the 8 to work stuff like that out. So really it depends on what you want to do with the lower strings. Use them as drone notes? Chugg away? Or extend your soloing playing field. This would all factor into your neck shape. 

Hope that helps.


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## axiomIII (Jan 2, 2015)

trickae said:


> how goes the design man? I don't know if my tips would help but i just ran my eyes over your thread.
> 
> *Scale length/gauge to shred:*
> I built a 27' scale 7 string and tuned it to D with 10 gauge Ernie Ball cobalts (stiffer than slinkies) to learn a whole heap of symphony x and it worked nicely. So If you're afraid of a huge fan, see if you can extend the high end beyond 25. 26.5 is an easy middle ground and I honestly don't notice the increased scale length. 27' is pretty tight and great for tone. I found some stretches need a little getting used to but I like the added fret width on the high end.
> ...



thanks for the advice.. I figure a neck with an 's' shape profile would help with the shredding lower down, maybe like an RG neck curve but continued back up to the top low end... . I have done a lot of research especially on Adams 11 string. I come to the conclusion that I may build two or three when I get round to getting some money together..! 27"- 31" or 32" or 31.5"!

that one would be straight fret for easier chord stretches, I mean if you have ever tried a mock up of the curved fret design you would be concerned too! the link, if it still works is atop this page or on the one before it is in conversation with Rusti... if you want to try it! haha.


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## Hollowway (Jan 2, 2015)

I can't wait to see this come to fruition!


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## rockskate4x (Jan 2, 2015)

how did you get the individual scale lengths to show up on fretfind 

EDIT: nevermind (facepalm) reading is hard


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## AnP Hardcore (Jan 3, 2015)

You're absolutely insane and a genius at the same time  I really want to see this thing come together though


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## CrazyDean (Jan 4, 2015)

I would recommend only having the highest frets available for the highest strings like on the blue Skervesen you referenced.

I typically pick between the neck pickup and the middle pickup on a standard guitar. However, on my 27 fret, 8 string multiscale, I sometimes hit the last fret on the 8th string with my pick or thumb.


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## jack_cat (Jun 15, 2015)

So is it happening? 

I am digging reading these threads where other people agonize over possible details in an infinite universe of guitar construction. Makes my concerns look so petty, maybe I'll stop whining and go make some more drawings myself. 

Anyway - waiting to see that finished PIC - curved frets and all! eeeyyiiii.


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## ixlramp (Jun 16, 2015)

Kalium are now doing 11 string sets, and have guitar strings up to .182, eventually in 4 lengths.
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/extended-range-guitars/295050-kalium-strings-formerly-circle-k-strings-new-store-new-erg-erb-strings.html


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## jack_cat (Jun 22, 2015)

The curved frets idea is the most radical thing I have seen yet. On a purely theoretical level it's a wonderful idea. I started playing with the string lengths for my "next build" nine string fanned fret classical which will - I think - be 23-5/8" to 28- 5/16" - but I do it in metric which is SO much easier to calculate, and therefore I think of it as 600mm to 720mm, a ratio of 5/6, very neat, and with straight diagonal frets, nut and bridge, there would be a 15mm difference in length between each pair of strings. Since there are 8 spaces, we have 8X15, which we can arrange in 4 reciprocal pairs adding up to 30mm each, so that the largest differences would be between the bass strings and the smallest between the treble strings, like this:
15 8
15 10
15 12
15 14
15 16
15 18
15 20
15 22

Thus 8mm between the lengths of the A4 and E4, and 22mm between the lengths of the B1 and F#1. I have yet to draw it out, but I think it should make a graceful parabolic curve at both bridge and nut. 

I have it down to where I can calculate a fret layout in about 15 minutes with recursive operations on a pocket calculator, putting the total string length in memory and subtracting each successive fret result from the total in memory to give the next recursion. 17.817152 is the value I'm using for the "rule of 18". I am not clear on the relationship of saddle set back to this figure, another obscure variable. 

There is, with an acoustic build, the enormous problem of designing curved bridge and nut which would be necessarily adjustable in some way for intonation - it's bad enough with the straight diagonal bridge and nut (as on my prototype) carving a whole new bone when I want to tweak the intonation - starting with a cow femur and a diamond blade, because nobody makes bone saddles that big. It is really hard to imagine carving a piece of bone in a parabolic curve... Oh, of course, it has to be done with that computer controlled carving gadget -- don't have one of those in my shop! 

However, the luthier who built my prototype fanned 9 two years ago already thinks I'm half nuts, and I don't think I can sell him on doing curved frets until after at least the next build! I have already pushed him past his previous limits. 

jack


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## jack_cat (Jun 29, 2015)

I had to draw a picture of one of these things for myself. It's a rough draft, you can see some of the curves are a little rough where my pencil points were a little off, and not necessarily the best configuration -- lots of possible other configurations for the relationships of the curves and fan suggest themselves once getting an initial visual impression.

Very unlikely that this will ever get built.... but never say never!
-jack


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## Durero (Jun 29, 2015)

Nice sketch


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## axiomIII (Nov 20, 2015)

I am still thinking of a 27 to 32".... also found any good wood websites? cheap wood? I have a list that I took my time researching..

Some woods are more expensive than others, Maca wood or macacauba is known by many names. Coyote, Orange Agate, Hormigo its Latin name is Platymiscium spp. Not sure what I can use it for. Seems to be a little like koa. So maybe it can be used for bodies or fingerboards

Woods list, not exclusive to me.
Body woods I seem to like.
White/Black Korina, (Limba)
Swamp Ash,
Bubinga,
English walnut
Chatke Viga,
Macacauba
Top/cap woods
Maple (Quilted, Flamed, Spalted etc..)
English walnut
Australian Blackwood
Lutz and Sitka spruce,
Macacauba
English Sycamore
Neck/fingerboard
Macacauba
Tulip wood
Lilac wood (heartwood)
Buckthorn
Quebracho (V. hard)
Ziricote (Pale moon ebony) EXPENSIVE! :O
Maple
Walnut
Green heart (V. hard)
Red heart
Purple heart
Blood wood
Kingwood
Pink ivory
Canary wood
Coco bolo
Ebony substitutes!!
Itin (East Asia)	
Wamara (African, I think.)
Gidgee (Australian)
And my favourite Katalox (purple grained ebony like wood, cheap abundant and little known. )
-----------------------

also I wonder how much it would cost to get just a fingerboard made... crimson quoted me over 700£ but I have had worse for a neck included (1600£) I forget who...

Hell, I could ask how the research into the material science of super conductor graphine is turning out as a replacement for copper in the coils of pups. But I guess this isnt in the pipe yet?  Imagine a pick up that is as thin as a line of atoms, like a tape you put on your guitar! And solder up! Ha!


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## Hywel (Nov 21, 2015)

axiomIII said:


> I am still thinking of a 27 to 32".... also found any good wood websites? cheap wood? I have a list that I took my time researching..



Ziricote and PME are different woods. 

I've not seen PME but Ziricote and others are available from David Dyke at DavidDyke.co.uk (Who's one of Dylan at Deamonesess wood suppliers I think) and exotichardwooduk at Exotic Hardwoods Uk Ltd | Contact Form. I've also had some success with eBay but it's obviously entirely seller dependant. Feelgoodwood has been a good one (http://stores.ebay.co.uk/feelgoodwood). He also has other stock not on eBay so it's worth sending him an email.


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## axiomIII (Nov 30, 2015)

Hey, I have always wondered why the Fret find 2D site doesnt compensate for thicker strings and wider spacing on the nut and bass side. I mean, Im sure it works fine for a six string but the equal spacing is skewing the measurements. Not only the scale, but the smoothness of the fret curves on multiple scale lengths as well. So I guess cut out the scale lengths separately to see if they fit? 

My string width/size approximation findings/preference.

Nut. 78mm Bridge. 117mm
1] 2mm 1] 5mm
2] 9.5mm 2] 16.5mm
3] 17mm 3] 26.5mm
4] 24.5mm 4] 37.5mm
5] 31.5mm 5] 47-48mm
6] 38-39mm 6] 58-60mm
7] 46-48mm 7] 70-72.5mm
8] 55-58mm 8] 84-87mm
9] 64-67.5mm 9] 96-100mm
10] 71.5-76mm 10] 108.5-113.5mm

I found that the bridge widths of the saddles between the 1st and 7th string were about 11 mms, so the first six strings total bridge width was about 65mm. The bass string saddles were about 13mm. So total 10 strings width- 117mm, with 2mm ether side for the finger board. There, something Adam never gave yer.

Other things that wouldve been useful during my lengthy research period.
Roller micro saddles that couldve intonated at the nut. But its hard enough finding the micro nut saddles (Guitar Bridge Microsaddles from Highly Strung) in the first place. if only Rick Toone and Townsend would actually take the advice, and make and sell separate roller nut saddles. Theres clearly a market for it. 

If youre all wondering why this is going to take so long, the truth is I have spent the last year and a half nearly getting kicked out of my home. Austerity I guess, yeah my arse.
So it will take time for me, a pretty poor man, to get this project off the ground. If Im lucky enough to survive without becoming homeless, I will let you all know. With some nice pictures and perhaps a video, I will have to get a camera first though I guess. Lol.


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## GuitarBizarre (Nov 30, 2015)

I have to question why you're eyeballing 11mm when it's common knowledge that "F Spaced" bridge saddles are 10.8mm wide.


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## axiomIII (Dec 3, 2015)




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## axiomIII (Dec 4, 2015)

Rusti said:


> Perfect! I cant export the link
> Looks good now



the string spacing is all wrong and messes with the measurements anyway rusti,

I have an idea for frets with needle like nails instead of a tang. what do you think?


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## axiomIII (Jan 4, 2016)

jack_cat said:


> I had to draw a picture of one of these things for myself. It's a rough draft, you can see some of the curves are a little rough where my pencil points were a little off, and not necessarily the best configuration -- lots of possible other configurations for the relationships of the curves and fan suggest themselves once getting an initial visual impression.
> 
> Very unlikely that this will ever get built.... but never say never!
> -jack



I wonder if you could ever use such an idea as fret wire with nails instead of a tang along the length.?


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## axiomIII (Jan 11, 2016)

heres a thought, natural woods all the coulors of the rainbow! 

Greenheart- Green
Pau amarillo/canary wood- Yellow
Buckthorn/pau amarillo- Orange
Redheart/bloodwood- red
Pink ivory/ Australian myrtle/- Pink
Kingwood/purpleheart- Purple
Blue fungus in maple/ash/spruce/whatever, on each end of the headstock. Not affecting the structural integrity.

or I guess i could just be less adventurous and difficult and dye maple 2X4s to do this, maybe with some purple/red/green heart or walnut stripes?

I was also thinking on the second more expensive version of Narcissus, a pale moon ebony fingerboard with subtle ammolite inlays with their rainbow shell, usually used for jewelry!


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## axiomIII (Jan 11, 2016)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Ammolite_from_Placenticeras_fossil_ammonite,_Alberta.jpg[/IMG]


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## axiomIII (Jan 11, 2016)

just some more rough sketches..


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## axiomIII (Jan 11, 2016)




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## axiomIII (Jan 11, 2016)

Sigh...


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## lettsbasses (Feb 5, 2016)

The only way to do this is to make a template for the curve and cut the slots with a router. Then instead of traditional frets simply glue in flat steel bars which can then be crowned. Simple really. Or if you have a cnc machine. . .


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## axiomIII (Feb 8, 2016)

lettsbasses said:


> The only way to do this is to make a template for the curve and cut the slots with a router. Then instead of traditional frets simply glue in flat steel bars which can then be crowned. Simple really. Or if you have a cnc machine. . .



nah, but those sound a little like nail based frets, but less stable! they would surely rip clean out when being stoned. a 'Ghetto' way of doing this is to line up every accurate position in relation to each other, (fret find wont work for this until fixed.) and then get a scalpel and a depth jig. then proceed to extremely carefully slice in to the fret positions above each string, and clip the fret wire tang into a castle wall, or sharp nail-like spikes, then grind flat some parts and allow the others to stick into the wood partially. This should be adequately strong to withstand crowning and the like. I tested some.


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## axiomIII (Feb 8, 2016)

These pictures demonstrate what I mean, the agile ten string has only 7cm wide nut, yet to most who want a ten string single course instrument this isn't really wide enough, Even the guys at Crimson guitars said I would need at least 3 inches. yet Adam, said his 11 string was 81-82mm? he never confirmed that with tape though.

As you can see, six string nuts (going by the RG I have.) cover about roughly 4 cm.
what would others on here say is the correct nut width? I don't have massive hands like ethereal entity, but i don't want to be soo efficient that I can't make an Amaj chord easily.


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## axiomIII (Feb 8, 2016)

I propose to my friends at fret find 2D, that the programming could line up the curved frets by measuring the smoothness of the connections a computer would do this by drawing a straight line from, say, 1st string to 3rd string and if the 2nd string lines up it would be considered 'in line' do this for all alternate strings. And the computer would automatically show the smoothest and closest example to your scales.

also the string distance should be individually editable.


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## lettsbasses (Feb 12, 2016)

axiomIII said:


> View attachment 49784
> 
> 
> View attachment 49785
> ...


You won't get normal "tanged" frets to work, they wont accept a sideways curve without twisting/ buckling. The tang would not even be a problem as it is flat and will happily curve without any mod. It is the crown which poses the major problem with that method. The most reliable way would be to glue flat bars in which will follow the curve easily and cutting the frets uniformly with a router. Cutting the fret slots with a knife will not work unless you can find a knife that will cut slots with the correct kerf, and you won't find one of those. A router is definitely the best option and will give the cleanest results with an even kerf that will create a snug slot for flat bars which would not fail/move at all once glued in place. No one would take on a task like this without reinventing the fretting process and finding an alternative to traditional frets as they simply won't work in this case. It just makes things more difficult.


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## axiomIII (Mar 14, 2016)

Rusti said:


> Had some troubles with the link, copy it all and remove the space after http:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



just wanted to ask you what E scale lengths should I go for that are close as possible, for fret find 2d.
here are the scales I want for this 10 string.
as close to them as possible...
1- 27"
2- 27.33"
3- 27.66"
4- 28"
5- 28.33" or 28.45"
6- 28.66" * try to keep this one short!
7- 29.33" 
8- 30"
9- 31"
10- 32"
------------
that was the 27" - 32"
and now the 27"-33"
--------------
the difference is in the last 4 strings B1-E1-B0-F#0
or 7-10.

7- 29.5"
8- 30.5"
9 -31.5"
10- 33"
--------------

now I tried dividing the nut width 80mm into 2mm "strings" and I took away the space to the edge of the fingerboard(0.000001). so now it is just Fretfind 2d 41 string guitar with the spacing's as...

1-3rd string
2-7th string
3-10th/11th string
4-14th string
5-17th/18th string
6-21/22th string
7- 25th string
8- 28th/29th string
9- 32,33,34th string
10- 37/38/39th string

that leaves 4mm ether side of the last and first string.


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## bostjan (Mar 14, 2016)

What about a splined double e scale, for that many strings?

Something that curves out on the bass side and curves in on the treble side? I had a bitmap somewhere...I can't find it now.

But scale lengths:

1 635.0
2 638.8
3 643.6
4 649.6
5 657.0
6 666.3
7 678.0
8 692.6
9 710.8
10 735.5
11 762.0

[in mm]


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## rockskate4x (Mar 18, 2016)

bostjan said:


> What about a splined double e scale, for that many strings?
> 
> Something that curves out on the bass side and curves in on the treble side? I had a bitmap somewhere...I can't find it now.
> 
> ...



http://www.ekips.org/tools/guitar/f...3&il[]=30&u=in&sl=individual&scale=et&o=equal

That looks really damn good in fretfind. I used bostjan's scale lengths along with my own preferences for perpendicular fret location and string spacing. The nut and bridge have equal opposing angles like an isosceles triangle, which places perpendicular location between frets 8 and 9. Also bridge and nut string spacing are based off of 2.125" and 1.375" for 6 string. You can, of course take this anywhere you like.


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## Winspear (Mar 21, 2016)

That 30-25 looks absolutely lovely to play!



axiomIII said:


> what would others on here say is the correct nut width? I don't have massive hands like ethereal entity, but i don't want to be soo efficient that I can't make an Amaj chord easily.




Honestly I don't think my hands are as big as they look in photos - probably because they are so skinny. Maybe it helps, I measured my thumb to pinky span is 22cm.
I would be perfectly happy with a 70mm nut as long as the bottom gauge was below .120. 
Standard nut spacing for guitar seems to be about 6.8mm per string I think? That gives a 42mm standard nut with 4mm overhang each side.
I've got a Fender Bass VI here with a 43mm nut. Overhang seems to be 4mm and spacing slightly progressive from about 6.8 to 7.2 or so. 
Stock gauge is 90, but I've got it in B with 114s. It feels just fine but I wouldn't want to go thicker. 
My ViK is straight 6.8 up to 90 gauge.
80mm nut on a 10 sounds excessive to me. I'd say 75 at the very most, even for a 10 with only low strings so bigger gauges.
Maybe something like 6.8mm spacing for the first 6 gaps, then 7, 7.2, 7.4? That would fit a 70mm nut well.

This is not something I've looked into like you have and those other opinions surprised me. All production 7/8/9 seem to approach this area so the Agile 10 being 70mm seems right to me.

I would find what's comfortable to you with the thicker gauges and then figure out roughly what strings you want to use and space the nut to keep the gaps between the edges of the actual strings the same.


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## axiomIII (Apr 4, 2016)

ok but I was trying for a 27" to 32" curved smooth gradient 10 string d4 to F#0 so probably .009 or 10 to .150 ish gauge. 7th fret perp. 48 frets etc I can't get my head around the clever mathematics you guys use. 

it was a curve from lower gradient to steeper. I just can't make it smooth, I want a line through the middle with 41 "string" divisions I can do it for 80 mm , I just look at that measurement and know when drawn out in all the gauges it looks right. You may think it is excessive but see the pictures I posted with the measuring tape.


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## axiomIII (Apr 8, 2016)

I would find what's comfortable to you with the thicker gauges and then figure out roughly what strings you want to use and space the nut to keep the gaps between the edges of the actual strings the same.[/QUOTE]

Like I said it looks like 80 mm nut - 118mm bridge. but for those strings to be that close? could you show a pic of the nut with a ruler? and perhaps a video of you playing it?


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## Winspear (Apr 9, 2016)

EDIT: To clarify, I have just noticed that I was talking about a 10 string last time, not an 11 like the thread title, as your previous post suggested 10. 80mm for an 11 would not be excessive ,no. But the 70mm 10 string seems correct
Re 10 string:
Whatever seems good to you if you've tried it, but it sounds excessive to me and I'd want to keep the neck as thin as possible. 
I haven't got any pics right now, but here is a pic I have of the fender that just about shows the nut. It's on my instagram, if you go down a bit. instagram.com/twinspear 
That's the 114 as said, and all production ERGs I am aware of are using this standard spacing like the Agile and most of those guys are staying below 120 I think.
I would go higher for any more than the 114 certainly, but that isn't problematic. Like I said previously "Maybe something like 6.8mm spacing for the first 6 gaps, then 7, 7.2, 7.4? That would fit a 70mm nut well." You could add a fair bit more for that 150 and next string if you wanted, without it hitting anywhere near 80mm


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## Winspear (Apr 9, 2016)

If we take 62mm as the 9 string standard at least and assume no gauge issues there, that goes with the rough 6.8mm per string standard. 
A rough increase from there of the increase in gauge x2, say 1.2mm extra per string gives 70mm for a 10 and 78mm for an 11 string.

All depends what you are going for though - the nut spacing on a bass for example is of course much larger even on the smaller, guitar sized strings.


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## axiomIII (May 20, 2016)

EtherealEntity said:


> If we take 62mm as the 9 string standard at least and assume no gauge issues there, that goes with the rough 6.8mm per string standard.
> A rough increase from there of the increase in gauge x2, say 1.2mm extra per string gives 70mm for a 10 and 78mm for an 11 string.
> 
> All depends what you are going for though - the nut spacing on a bass for example is of course much larger even on the smaller, guitar sized strings.



It just seemed like the 70 mm agile 10 was measuring from string to string, rather than from the edge of the fb I get 3.5 mm edge and count it as 77mm any one got any pictures with measuring tape to post and show?


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## Prophetable (May 20, 2016)

My best 11+ string advice.


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## OmegaSlayer (May 20, 2016)

Maaaaan!!!
You're just trying to build almost the same guitar I would like to get.
Down to the color...not the shape 
Looking very forward to this.


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## jarnozz (May 21, 2016)

2 years later and still working out the specs


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## pondman (May 21, 2016)

jarnozz said:


> 2 years later and still working out the specs



That's exactly what I thought.


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## GuitarBizarre (May 23, 2016)

Yeah. 

I went looking around a little for some of OP's music to see if there was an actual goal in mind for this thing he wants to build - couldn't find anything - I did find some sort of page about looking for musicians where he says he'll play anything, but there were no audible examples, and just a few pictures of some other mockups for guitars - It looked really old and forgotten though. (Also, dude, it has your mobile phone number on it, don't put that .... out in public...)

At some point, you have to ask yourself if you really have any intention of this becoming a thing, or if you're just trying to give yourself a specification boner. 

I'd be glad to listen to some of your music and hear what limitations you sound like you're running into, but the fact is, if I can't find anything you were happy to put out there? Well lets just say you wouldn't be the first musician to become so absorbed in gear that they forgot to write anything.

If you're really intent on making this thing, go get Google Sketchup and model it - properly, with your intended dimensions. You will gain valuable insight into whether the thing you intend to build is actually possible. Materials, clearances, tolerances, fit and adjustment, etc. It's a very valuable tool, much better than these rushed looking pencil designs and endless numbered charts.

For what it's worth, I would also advise getting a basic synth out and actually generating the tones you're intending to make with this instrument. Try actually getting even a vaguely guitar-ish FM synth style and playing that note. F#0 is a 23Hz tone. I would be willing to bet that your speakers, guitar cab or other equipment, don't even approach being able to actually reproduce that frequency and it will just be a flabby, undefined mess with a bunch of harshness above it that's impossible to deal with.

Even if they did, unless you're splitting the low strings to one amp&cab, and the higher strings to another, I can't imagine you'd be able to do anything useful with it tonally - you'd need so much distortion, compression, and shaping to get those lowest strings to sound properly, that your high strings would become absolutely unusably bright and shrill. 

I'm aware I'll get hate for this, but I think that given current technology not only in guitars but also in amps and so on, 8 string is about as low as you can reasonably go without losing what makes a guitar a guitar.

People will crow on about how you "don't need the fundamental, you can infer it from the higher frequencies, guitar is all about the midrange anyway", but lets be honest about this - A 7 string guitar produces a 61~Hz tone, and in a mix you'll probably still high pass that at 90-100Hz to make room for the bass. Your harmonics on that tone still mostly occur above there, starting with a 122Hz octave harmonic, so you know what, cool, do that, it's fine, you really can infer the note and have that fill-in from the bass. An 8 string is pushing it, since the octave harmonic of that low F is 92Hz, but you can nudge a high pass down a hair to allow that through and retain those fundamental-inferring balls.

But this thing, tuned to your chosen F#0? That means your first two octaves worth of harmonics all occur below the highpass of a traditional mix. 

How are you going to actually deal with what that means for your creative process? I've yet to hear even a 9 string avoid the problems involved, to me it just sounds like pick attack followed by mush. You're talking something far more extreme and you're going to have to figure out where you're going with that.


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## ixlramp (May 23, 2016)

> in a mix you'll probably still high pass that at 90-100Hz to make room for the bass

Only if high-passing to make room for a bass, this is a full-range guitar so won't always be competing for pitch territory with a bass, that's rockbandcentric thinking.
I know of a 32" scale bass with an excellent sounding F#0, the 8x3 string owned by Kalium's C3.


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## GuitarBizarre (May 23, 2016)

ixlramp said:


> > in a mix you'll probably still high pass that at 90-100Hz to make room for the bass
> 
> Only if high-passing to make room for a bass, this is a full-range guitar so won't always be competing for pitch territory with a bass, that's rockbandcentric thinking.
> I know of a 32" scale bass with an excellent sounding F#0, the 8x3 string owned by Kalium's C3.


 
I get the impression that a rock band context is exactly what OP is going for, after reading this, linked from his profile: Frai Fable - Musician in Liverpool EN - BandMix.co.uk

Not to be too insulting, but OP seems to have a real tendency against substantiating their plans or claims. We're 2 years into him not building this guitar. That page linked from his profile shows him claiming to have written 200 songs and play like Vai or Satch, but apparently in the 3 years since he's not actually released any music.

It all strikes me as someone looking for gear to save them from being unable to write music anyone other than them actually appreciates. And I say that as someone who is intimately familiar with the trap of "better gear will fix my mix, right?".


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## axiomIII (May 23, 2016)

GuitarBizarre said:


> I get the impression that a rock band context is exactly what OP is going for, after reading this, linked from his profile: Frai Fable - Musician in Liverpool EN - BandMix.co.uk
> 
> Not to be too insulting, but OP seems to have a real tendency against substantiating their plans or claims. We're 2 years into him not building this guitar. That page linked from his profile shows him claiming to have written 200 songs and play like Vai or Satch, but apparently in the 3 years since he's not actually released any music.
> 
> It all strikes me as someone looking for gear to save them from being unable to write music anyone other than them actually appreciates. And I say that as someone who is intimately familiar with the trap of "better gear will fix my mix, right?".



You want to know about me? right?
Well I went through a lot of .... over the last 13 years and now I'm still in a terrible position. I may not ever get this thing built but this thread is called advice, so that was the intent. as for my "band" project , that was just an idealistic piece of crap from when I was younger. I can shred well, but I'm in a serious crisis of health and economics, not to mention the damage to my confidence this whole ordeal has taken, I've literally had a break down.

To put a story short I live in the middle of nowhere and nobody wants a guy with no money in their band. playing 10 strings is an idea I wanted to put in place since 2007. I have been obsessively designing since I was yay high.

My songs sound terrible because I = poor. laptop mics suck and these were considered for someone else. don't hate me for it.

I like all of you used to have dreams, I used to want to take to the stage. but I see reality conspires against the gutter borne.


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## GuitarBizarre (May 23, 2016)

I mean, I really don't get what you're trying to say. 

OK, so that page (Which still has your phone number on it, and is still linked in your sig), is from "When you were younger".

I'd buy that if you were talking being 18 then 21. But you were 28. Moving from there to being 31 isn't, for most people, some massive period of dramatic change.

But the bigger problem is that after 2 years (Much longer than that if you're to be believed), your fundamental understanding of how instruments actually work, and/or are built, still seems all-over the place and incomplete. 

That shouldn't be the case if you've been reading into instrument design for this long.

Eventually there comes a point where people are just going to roll their eyes and say "Suuuure you are buddy", especially if, as it has, it becomes clear that you're just running around chasing your own tail.



Maybe you can make this work. But spitballing a million ideas and never actually putting any damn WORK into any one of them is going to ensure you never do anything at all with it.

Get sketchup. Learn to use it, it isn't hard. Make a damn 3D model of this guitar and you will understand ten times more about it than you did when you started. 

You will probably find many, many things about it that simply will not work and that require you to change your plans. 

That's where success is born - in iteratively designing to avoid failure without compromising function. Moving towards ONE goal repeatedly, and probably starting from scratch several times over. 

Right now, you're not doing that - you're just moving from one idea to the next, and it's preventing you from seeing any of the flaws in what you're saying.


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## Prophetable (May 23, 2016)

GuitarBizarre, what're you trying to accomplish by setting this guy straight? Even if this one topic is a pipe dream and he won't pull the trigger on it, there is nothing wrong with that.


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## dafodilldaydream (May 27, 2016)

I like the phoenix model, it could be a BC rich out there somewhere.


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## axiomIII (May 27, 2016)

I'am still 28 the site changes age with birthdays I think.


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## axiomIII (May 27, 2016)

I'm sure this will be a fine piece of information for other trawlers of the internet forums. Some as old a 15 years, still useful.

These are some prototype pictures I have been toying with. They are a special upper bouted variation of the BC Rich Draco model, that I call Phoenix. I have had this secret Idea for years now- Hell theyre practically my signature model! - BJ Santos. BC RICH PHOENIX Let me know which ones you all prefer. I have more designs but these are the most cut back choices, although they do have more knobs than I would like...

This shape really lends itself to extended fret board, super deep cutaways. Ignore the colour, I mean paper ashen white/grey could be an option if you want! I just drew over a photo of a drawing. Since the local authorities took all of mine and my dads equipment (Guitars, electronics, photos, everything.). I am unable to build/record/make any money whatsoever. He was a bit of a hoarder, but he was not that bad and he had some great stuff. They practically stole everything and left us destitute. On top of that, his terminal cancer diagnosis means I am doing everything I can to keep us above the waterline.

Anyway I will still strive to make some guitars + Get employment. Probably need the latter first! Im sure some of you are in the same boat. I mean this public forum cant just be full of the haves and not the have-nots? Can it? 

By the way, does anybody know of any pros and cons of lightwave bridge pick ups? How much do they cost for individual 10 strings? And how do they compare to piezo? What sound are they best used for? I was thinking of combining them as the active part of the 10 string while having a passive hum bucker 10 as backup.


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## axiomIII (May 27, 2016)

Prophetable said:


> My best 11+ string advice.



Eherm? Wheres the whammy?


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## Prophetable (May 27, 2016)

axiomIII said:


> Eherm? Wheres the whammy?



It's right there:


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## bostjan (May 27, 2016)

axiomIII said:


> I'm sure this will be a fine piece of information for other trawlers of the internet forums. Some as old a 15 years, still useful.
> 
> These are some prototype pictures I have been toying with. They are a special upper bouted variation of the BC Rich Draco model, that I call Phoenix. I have had this secret Idea for years now- Hell theyre practically my signature model! - BJ Santos. BC RICH PHOENIX Let me know which ones you all prefer. I have more designs but these are the most cut back choices, although they do have more knobs than I would like...
> 
> ...



Lightwave pickups are fairly expensive, and work great, sounding a lot like a piezo, but, ironically, slightly less bright. I have never tried one on guitar, though, I've only tried them on a couple basses. They do tend to interfere with most palm muting techniques, though, from what I have heard, and also, from what I can imagine from having demo'd them on basses. They are a really nifty option if that doesn't put you off. If it were my design, I would certainly not wish to rely solely on the lightwave pickups, but I have seen basses that do just that.


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## frahmans (May 27, 2016)

axiom, come on man, commit and build it. I can't wait to see it.


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## axiomIII (May 31, 2016)

frahmans said:


> axiom, come on man, commit and build it. I can't wait to see it.



Commitment aint the issue man! I would sever a foot to get this done! I just have no money!. I'm a guitar building hobo. IF you can wait.... I guarantee I will build it if I don't die first. along with the other "limited edition" models. 

might take years though... just ignore me here . I suppose that is the wise thing to do, oh and also thank you all for your sage sound engineering advice.


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## GuitarBizarre (May 31, 2016)

You're broke? 

I invite you to view:

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/lu...lapsible-acoustic-electric-travel-guitar.html

Honestly, Ernesto isn't a guy I'd advise people start using as a role model - I know nothing about this guy, but judging by that thread, he'd probably be the first to admit very few people can live like he does. 

But he does very much embody exactly what is preventing you from building this thing - and it's not money. It's the drive to actually make it happen instead of waiting for the perfect circumstances to arrive and allow it to happen.


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## axiomIII (Jun 6, 2016)

GuitarBizarre said:


> You're broke?
> 
> I invite you to view:
> 
> ...



Very libertarian of you. So I suppose you want to jam? since we live relatively close. sso distance.


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