# The sonority of different harmonic minor modes



## The Omega Cluster (Feb 3, 2015)

Hey, I'm building this little class about harmonic minor modes, but I'm helpless when it comes to pointing out which modes of the harmonic minor scale sounds brighter or darker than the other, perhaps my ear isn't used to hearing them enough...

For now, I have based myself on the brightness of the modes from the major scale and transposed it to the harmonic minor modes, and sure there are a few that sound like they're at the right place, but other just seem off.

Here's my list (from brightest to darkest sounding mode):
1-Lydian &#9839;2
2-Ionian &#9839;5
3-Ultralocrian (this one in particular I'm sure he isn't that bright)
4-Dorian &#9839;4
5-Aeolian &#9839;7 (harmonic minor)
6-Phrygian Dominant
7-Locrian &#9839;6

What do you guys think?

EDIT: 
Also, if you could put an "emotion" that each mode emanates, that would be really cool, too. There is little to no info on the Internet about it, unless I still haven't looked deeply enough!


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## Aion (Feb 3, 2015)

To my ears I would put them in the following order:

1. Ionian #5
2. Dorian #4
3. Phrygian Dominant
4. Lydian #2
5. Aeolian #7
6. Locrian #6
7. Ultralocrian

But keep in mind that while similarity/difference to the harmonic series add some measure of objectivity, this is truly a subjective idea. I also never think of any of the modes as being associated with any emotion, just with relative amounts of rest or tension. It doesn't correspond exactly to brightest to darkest, but it's generally pretty close.


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## The Omega Cluster (Feb 3, 2015)

Aion said:


> To my ears I would put them in the following order:
> 
> 1. Ionian #5
> 2. Dorian #4
> ...



Well, usual "major" modes are often associated with emotions, such as "mystery", "sad", "joyous", etc. Isn't it the case with harmonic minor modes?


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## Aion (Feb 3, 2015)

The Omega Cluster said:


> Well, usual "major" modes are often associated with emotions, such as "mystery", "sad", "joyous", etc. Isn't it the case with harmonic minor modes?



Personally, I don't associate any major modes with specific emotions either. There are some emotions I am less likely to try and convey with certain modes, and others that I am more likely to convey, but none of them are specific enough for me to say, "that's the happy mode, that's the angry mode, that's the I've-just-been-reunited-with-my-father-who-never-hugged-me mode." For me, thinking the modes as being more or less tense is a far more effective way of thinking about them because the emotion of a song comes from way more than just what mode you're using. Things like tempo, instrumentation, the amount of space you leave, all of those really contribute to the emotion of a song. I can write something in a major key and make it sound wistful. I'll probably use some chromaticism, but it will ultimately still be Ionian.

The subjective classification thing never really worked for me. Maybe it works for you, and that's great, use every tool you can get. But saying, "this is the joyous mode," only works in a bubble. As soon as you add other musical elements you have other things to deal with. Maybe you're using the joyous mode, but if you're tempo is super slow it's going to sound less joyous.

Locking modes to emotions is a flawed move. We all probably had the vocab lesson where we talked about how words like, "good," "bad," "happy," and "sad," are all weak words. Are you happy? What type of happy? Ecstatic? Overjoyed? Amazed? As soon as you start to bring in this type of specificity to your music, the modes emotional associations (which tend to be somewhat broad) begin to fall apart. The way this works musically comes back to tension. If you're expressing sadness, what is the reason for the sadness. Is there an element of fear, uncertainty, or anger (all of which would have more tension). Is there an element of wistful or acceptance (less tension)? Then from there the other musical elements help to fill things out and give more specificity.

Take this monument to the overblown pop/rock song:



It's major pretty much the entire time. But the music goes through a variety of emotional changes using thickness of orchestration, tempo, instrumentation, vocal technique (mostly how gritty or not gritty they sing), and a whole bunch of other things to show emotion. Most effective might be at 6:50 when the entire thing becomes relatively sparse after having spent the majority of time spent with lots of things happening at once. The desired effect being, "what is going to happen next, something needs to happen." And then the exuberance when a decision has been made. This musical idea continues until the coda when the vocals lighten considerably and repeat earlier musical ideas in order to express nostalgia for when the song took place earlier in the characters lives. There are, of course, lyrics here to help clarify all of that, but the story and most of it's emotional changes can stand separate from them.

Saying, "this mode expresses that emotion," has really just never sat well with me. It has a dogmatic air that I believe is incongruous with music's unlimited expressiveness. In any case, teach what you hear. If you hear phrygian dominant as the ice-cream-treat-after-the-doctor-when-I-got-a-really-painful-shot emotion, then teach it as that, if it's the shameful-eroticism emotion teach it as that, and if it's the sad emotion, teach it as that.


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## The Omega Cluster (Feb 3, 2015)

Hm... food for thought for sure. I agree on many if not all points you're bringing there, sir.

But, if we're speaking of tension, then in what order would you put the harmonic minor modes? I'm just trying to find a way to order them so it's easier to imagine and get used to for my student. And for me too, hopefully!


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## wizbit81 (Feb 3, 2015)

Personally I think of them as alterations from the major modes and line them up side by side, so:

Ionian #5
Dorian #4
Phrygian #3 (aka Phrygian Dom or Phrygian Major)
Lydian #2
Weird one....ultralocrian if you like although for the purpose of this I think of it as Mixolydian with a raised root, so Mix#1
Aeolian #7 (aka Harmonic Minor)
Locrian #6 (or nat 6 depending on how you want to look at it) 

Nice descending set of sharps, easy to remember, nice order in parallel to major modes. To be fair a name is a name, as long as you can remember them and use them appropriately that's what counts.


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## The Omega Cluster (Feb 3, 2015)

wizbit81 said:


> Personally I think of them as alterations from the major modes and line them up side by side, so:
> 
> Ionian #5
> Dorian #4
> ...



Good idea! Thanks!


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## octatoan (Feb 3, 2015)

Wish You Were Here is (apparently) in a major key. Pls.


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## The Omega Cluster (Feb 3, 2015)

Well, now that this is over, I've also checked the ascending melodic minor and double harmonic modes. Oh. My. God. These are so awesome! Why do almost no one use it in metal? Or anywhere, for that matter?


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## wizbit81 (Feb 3, 2015)

People have their hands full with the major scale 

Also, once you get into chromatics properly I think you consider less the differences between major modes and melodic modes etc and think more about the colour tones, so you end up playing melodies rather than thinking of scales if that makes sense. Like if I'm playing Mixolydian I also know I can play Mixob6, Mixob5b9, Lydian Dominant, Mixob9, blah blah. When you mix them up a bit although they each have, as you say, a sonority, you think less about the seperate scales and more about which colour you want to accentuate.

Those scales are really unstable too, so you have to be a lot more careful making melodies from them. Yes though, I agree they are awesome and need more usage. 

Two players to listen to if you want to get an idea of how they sound in the hands of a metal maestro would be Per Nilsson of Scar Symmetry and Richie Allan from the Heavy Metal Ninjas. Per uses all of the above, along with Harmonic major modes a bit, along with Fredrik Thordendal, and Richie loves the Double Harmonic minor (aka Hungarian minor) and he uses the modes of Harmonic Minor a fair bit too. Those are some of the most interesting soloists around I reckon.

My top tip is to do something I regret never really doing, which is to sit and compose lines and solos with those scales. I don't mean improvise, I mean sit and use your ear note by note. As improv is really just sped up composition anyhow you are working on that too.


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## Aion (Feb 4, 2015)

Harmonic major is also a super fun scale. Both harmonic major and melodic minor get used quite a bit in modal jazz.

I'll give you my opinions on relative tension of modes and whatnot tomorrow, but it's only going to be based on what I hear. You'd have just as much justification for a list based off your own ear. Better off even. But yeah, tomorrow I'll give you some more opinion. Opinions are like assholes... I have a strangely high number of them and usually people don't want me to expose them.


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## Aion (Feb 4, 2015)

So here is what I consider the order of most to least tense of harmonic minor. Keep in mind that this is also somewhat context based. Also when you think of relative amounts of tension it allows you to switch between modes from different scales which gives you even more freedom to play whatever you want.

Ionian #5 (though the fact that this is the only one to me that actually sounds bright could be throwing it off, it's certainly not restful, just least tense)
Harmonic Minor
Lydian #2
Phrygian Dominant
Dorian #4
Locrian #6
Ultralocrian


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## asher (Feb 4, 2015)

Paging Mr. Big Noodles?


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## octatoan (Feb 4, 2015)

He Who Must Not Be Named.


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## The Omega Cluster (Feb 4, 2015)

Aion said:


> So here is what I consider the order of most to least tense of harmonic minor. Keep in mind that this is also somewhat context based. Also when you think of relative amounts of tension it allows you to switch between modes from different scales which gives you even more freedom to play whatever you want.
> 
> Ionian #5 (though the fact that this is the only one to me that actually sounds bright could be throwing it off, it's certainly not restful, just least tense)
> Harmonic Minor
> ...



I think you meant from least to most tense.


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## The Omega Cluster (Feb 4, 2015)

Also, I noticed that the Dorian b1 b5 (also known as the Lydian #2 #6 mode) works with a lot of chord types, namely Maj7, dominant 7, m7, m7b5, m Maj7, and probably other too. It's really interesting that such a weird and exotic mode fits over a wide variety of chords, but it's more understandable when you notice that the mode has the equivalent of the minor AND major third, diminished and perfect fifth, and minor and major seventh in it. But I guess that using it would make your solo really clash out against the rest of the song so, perhaps it's a good idea to use it only a little.


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## Aion (Feb 4, 2015)

The Omega Cluster said:


> I think you meant from least to most tense.



Oops, yes.


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## Enselmis (Feb 5, 2015)

asher said:


> Paging Mr. Big Noodles?



I think he's...

*Gone.*


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## tedtan (Feb 5, 2015)

^ Probably only temporarily.


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## asher (Feb 5, 2015)

tedtan said:


> ^ Probably only temporarily.



Flying Spaghetti Monster, I hope so.

WTF would it even be for? He's one of the most rational, mild mannered people here


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## tedtan (Feb 5, 2015)

There was a thread earlier this week about which music theory book to choose and a mod edit in MBN's post looks like he might have posted a link to some materials (knowingly or unknowingly) that may have been pirated. But that's just a guess based on the edit one of the mods made; I didn't see it before the link was removed, so I can't say what it actually linked to.

But hopefully he'll be back soon - the theory forum won't be the same until he's back.


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## octatoan (Feb 6, 2015)

I often feel like MBN doesn't really care. If the stuff is good, he links to it.


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## ace_operations (Feb 13, 2015)

I find this thread very interesting, but can't make much of it. I know there are these modes, but what does the number attached to it mean? Like Lydian #2? I know Lydian but what's the 2? I really like the suggestion to use these scales over backing chords and figure it out note by note, but any suggestions as to what those chords might be? Is there a resource that will point me to what these modes exactly are?

Ok am done rattling off questions  any info is highly appreciated! I don't really know what I am looking for. Just ways to use these in my playing maybe?


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## tedtan (Feb 13, 2015)

ace_operations said:


> I know there are these modes, but what does the number attached to it mean? Like Lydian #2? I know Lydian but what's the 2?



The second note in the scale.




ace_operations said:


> Is there a resource that will point me to what these modes exactly are?



There are a ton of jazz theory resources that can help you use the modes of harmonic and melodic minor over various chords. Just do a Google search for terms like "jazz chord scale theory", "harmonic minor modes", etc. and you'll turn up more than you can read in one lifetime.


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## bostjan (Feb 13, 2015)

By scale:

12-7-63-F a.k.a. Harmonic Minor Family

12-7-63-146 a.k.a. Diminished Heptatonic = b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 bb7
Obviously the darkest and most dissonant.


12-7-63-169 a.k.a. Locrian Major 6 = b2 b3 4 b5 6 b7
Tonality not much different from the locrian scale, but the major sixth adds some tension.


12-7-63-208 a.k.a. Spanish Gypsy a.k.a. Ahaba Rabba = b2 3 4 5 b6 b7
This is a rather ethnic flavoured scale. A little darkness in the tonality, but it is not the predominant theme.


12-7-63-300 a.k.a. Harmonic Minor = 2 b3 4 5 b6 7
This is what we all know and love. Sad sounding, but the major seventh adds a touch of playfulnuss or ornament, so that it is not quite as sad as the natural minor.


12-7-63-311 a.k.a. Romanian Minor = 2 b3 #4 5 6 b7
The augmented fourth adds a little eastern flavour, or inspector-gadget-ism, depending on context. This scale can sound somewhat dark, or eyebrow-raising, or even a little playful.

12-7-63-340 a.k.a. Ionian Augmented 5 = 2 3 4 #5 6 7
Pretty useful. The augmented fifth can be used to build tension in more ways though, so it's not necessarily as dark as the more minor/diminished tonalities in the family, although it can be put into context to sound dark.

12-7-63-403 a.k.a. Lydian Augmented 2 = #2 3 #4 5 6 7
This is one of my personal favourites. This scale can be played fast for a shred-guitar effect with a cosmic feel (IMO). I'd say this is one of the least dark sounding ones in the family.


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## ace_operations (Feb 13, 2015)

Ah I understand now. The whole thread lit up in front of me 

Not really sure I can use all the information in any useful way yet, but I did give it a shot and it sounded pretty fun. Onward to more googling!


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## celticelk (Feb 21, 2015)

Can anyone point to musics where these scales are used natively? It's one thing to say "oh, I can rotate the harmonic minor pitch collection and get this funky set of intervals," but quite another to have some melodic prototypes for their use. (I'm not counting jazz in this request - the jazz use of these scales seems to be academic and assimilative rather than organic, in the "what *else* could I play over this 7th chord" vein.) Harmonic minor, Phrygian Dominant, and Dorian #4 are apparently widely used in klezmer. Anyone have suggestions for the others?


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## The Omega Cluster (Feb 21, 2015)

Well I do have some tunes for the major modes:
Ionian (pretty much any happy song, but let's say the Ode to Joy by Beethoven)
Dorian (Eleanor Rigby by the Beatles)
Phrygian (Forty Six & 2 by Tool)
Lydian (intro theme to the Simpsons)
Mixolydian (Sweet Home Alabama - Lynyrd Skynyrd)
Aeolian (pretty much any sad song, Losing My Religion, REM)
Locrian (very rare. the bass riff in Björk - Army of Me)

for the melodic/harmonic minor modes, they're much rarer, but they are used in songs, but usually not for all of the song. I should read a bit about that.


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## celticelk (Feb 21, 2015)

^^^ To clarify: I'm mostly interested in folk/ethnic uses of these scales, where presumably they arose organically. One-off modern compositions don't build the sort of melodic vocabulary that I'm interested in examining.


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## The Omega Cluster (Feb 21, 2015)

celticelk said:


> ^^^ To clarify: I'm mostly interested in folk/ethnic uses of these scales, where presumably they arose organically. One-off modern compositions don't build the sort of melodic vocabulary that I'm interested in examining.



Oh okay, then I am of no help to you unfortunately.


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## bostjan (Feb 23, 2015)

celticelk said:


> ^^^ To clarify: I'm mostly interested in folk/ethnic uses of these scales, where presumably they arose organically. One-off modern compositions don't build the sort of melodic vocabulary that I'm interested in examining.



If you are expecting to find highly exotic scales in folk music, you are not likely going to be very successful. These scales exist because of our tuning system, which is unique to Chinese and Western music. Western and Chinese folk music tend to use church modes and pentatonic scales, with some exceptions in Eastern European Folk music, but even that is fairly limited on scales in comparison to all of the flavours out there in extreme metal and experimental jazz.

In other words, 99% of the folk music out there uses 10% of the scales out there.


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## Aion (Feb 24, 2015)

celticelk said:


> Can anyone point to musics where these scales are used natively? It's one thing to say "oh, I can rotate the harmonic minor pitch collection and get this funky set of intervals," but quite another to have some melodic prototypes for their use. (I'm not counting jazz in this request - the jazz use of these scales seems to be academic and assimilative rather than organic, in the "what *else* could I play over this 7th chord" vein.) Harmonic minor, Phrygian Dominant, and Dorian #4 are apparently widely used in klezmer. Anyone have suggestions for the others?



Off the top of my head, no. Having said that from jazz comes a way to use them that can be organic. To be fair, the term "organic," doesn't really apply to anything involving the western music system. It is all very artificial and in many ways totally arbitrary. In any case, what is generally the key to making a scale work in modal jazz is a drone note (either as an actual repeated note or the note that ultimately holds a riff together) and quartal harmony. The most important thing there is definitely the drone note. I would suggest creating a riff in whatever mode you want to and from there you can make a melody in that mode that will sound natural. If you have a keyboard part or are adding harmonies, chords in fourths (as opposed to thirds) are a safe bet.

Sorry for not actually answering your question, but all types of modal music (whether they be rock, jazz, or folk) are really just based on the drone note. Other than that you're free to do what you want. It's different from tonal music, where harmonies really push the song to different places. So give yourself a good drone by wrapping it up in a riff, and get weird with it, you'll ultimately learn way more about music in general and the music you want to write.


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## celticelk (Feb 25, 2015)

bostjan said:


> If you are expecting to find highly exotic scales in folk music, you are not likely going to be very successful. These scales exist because of our tuning system, which is unique to Chinese and Western music. Western and Chinese folk music tend to use church modes and pentatonic scales, with some exceptions in Eastern European Folk music, but even that is fairly limited on scales in comparison to all of the flavours out there in extreme metal and experimental jazz.
> 
> In other words, 99% of the folk music out there uses 10% of the scales out there.



Well, it depends on what you consider "highly exotic." You're probably not going to find too many folk musics that make extensive use of one of Messaien's modes of limited transposition, but obviously there are folk musics that use at least a few of the harmonic-minor-family scales (klezmer and flamenco, for starters), and apparently the melodic-minor-family Lydian b7 scale occurs somewhat frequently in the music of northeastern Brazil (though sadly all of the scholarship on this appears to be in Portuguese). I'm interested in folk musics instead of experimental jazz or extreme metal because, frankly, folk music has better melodies, and I'm more interested in good melodies than in 32nd-note sequences.

Also: Western folk music does not, by definition, use Church modes. This is a major shortcoming in most Western instrumentalists' understanding of "mode." A "mode" is not just a scale - it's a set of melodic prototypes and cliches that demonstrate the "correct" use of the scale. That's the difference between, say Gregorian Mode 1 and Mode 2, which both use what we'd call a Dorian scale, but which have different "reciting notes," where the melody tends to linger (very explicitly, when a psalm is being chanted), and different cadential features. The fact that Dorian, for example, has the same interval structure as the major scale with a different starting point doesn't have anything to do with "modes."


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## bostjan (Feb 25, 2015)

celticelk said:


> Also: Western folk music does not, by definition, use Church modes. This is a major shortcoming in most Western instrumentalists' understanding of "mode." A "mode" is not just a scale - it's a set of melodic prototypes and cliches that demonstrate the "correct" use of the scale. That's the difference between, say Gregorian Mode 1 and Mode 2, which both use what we'd call a Dorian scale, but which have different "reciting notes," where the melody tends to linger (very explicitly, when a psalm is being chanted), and different cadential features. The fact that Dorian, for example, has the same interval structure as the major scale with a different starting point doesn't have anything to do with "modes."



A mode is a scale with a specific root pedal. At least that's what it is in common usage. You know what I meant in either case. My point stands.


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## celticelk (Feb 25, 2015)

bostjan said:


> A mode is a scale with a specific root pedal. At least that's what it is in common usage. You know what I meant in either case. My point stands.



Yeah, but the common usage sucks. =) The fact that Dorian, Lydian, etc. have the same interval structure (rotated) as the major scale is an interesting accident, in the Aristotelian sense - it doesn't tell you anything that's actually useful about how to employ any of those scales. Meanwhile, understanding a "mode" as simply a "scale" doesn't give you any insight into why the Catholic Church considers Modes 1 and 2 (or 3 and 4, or any of the pairs of modes) to be separate modes despite having exactly the same scale structure with the same root. To quote the Grove Dictionary of Music, "The term 'mode' has always been used to designate classes of melodies." (Emphasis added.) 

/pedantic


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## starslight (Feb 25, 2015)

This uses some kind of harmonic minor, right?


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## Aion (Feb 26, 2015)

celticelk said:


> Yeah, but the common usage sucks. =) The fact that Dorian, Lydian, etc. have the same interval structure (rotated) as the major scale is an interesting accident, in the Aristotelian sense - it doesn't tell you anything that's actually useful about how to employ any of those scales. Meanwhile, understanding a "mode" as simply a "scale" doesn't give you any insight into why the Catholic Church considers Modes 1 and 2 (or 3 and 4, or any of the pairs of modes) to be separate modes despite having exactly the same scale structure with the same root. To quote the Grove Dictionary of Music, "The term 'mode' has always been used to designate classes of melodies." (Emphasis added.)
> 
> /pedantic



I mean, the really old school stuff has its place (I certainly use it from time to time) but to use things the old fashioned way just because that is technically their most, "pure," form is kind of silly because you ignore hundreds (if not thousands) of years of musical development. While I definitely agree that a mode is more than just a scale, it is also a relationship between different intervals and the "home," note, it's only useful to look at modes the same way the Catholic Church looked at them if you want to build on the ideas used by the Catholic Church. Personally I believe there are many other ways to use them and that the ways used in modal jazz are much freer. So if you want to limit them, go ahead, but it's a self-imposed limitation rather than some kind of external pressure of how things "should," be done.

Once again, totally agree, everyone should explore the modes for themselves, break away from how things, "should," be done and do what they want to do, but modal jazz provides the ability to do that way more than classical, Renaissance, or pre-Renaissance music allows for.


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## redstone (Feb 26, 2015)

Ion #5 .. is a creepy android that fails to smile properly.
Dor #4 .. is a dark seductive dance with an unpredictable outcome.
Phry #3 .. is grandiose and decadent/ancient.
Lyd #2 .. lot of confidence and a bit of anxiety. 
Mixo #1 .. very pessimistic one...
eol #7 .. pfffff
loc #6 .. the dark side of phry #3. The dark little secret of the pyramid.


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## The Omega Cluster (Feb 26, 2015)

redstone said:


> Ion #5 .. is a creepy android that fails to smile properly.
> Dor #4 .. is a dark seductive dance with an unpredictable outcome.
> Phry #3 .. is grandiose and decadent/ancient.
> Lyd #2 .. lot of confidence and a bit of anxiety.
> ...



Then there are the ascending melodic minor modes
Ion b3
Dor b2
Phr b1
Lyd b7
Mix b6
Aeo b5
Loc b4

the major harmonic modes
Ion b6
Dor b5
Phr b4
Lyd b3
Mix b2
Aeo b1
Loc b7

the double harmonic modes
Ion b2 b6
Dor b1 b5
Phr b7 b4
Lyd b6 b3
Mix b5 b2
Aeo b4 b1
Loc b3 b7

And the Messiaen non-transposable modes and scales (I'll just put the intervals relative to a normal mode so it's easier to understand, hopefully)

First mode: Tone-per-tone

Second mode: 
-Octatonal 1: I-II-IIIm-IV-Tritone-VIm-VI-VII
-Octatonal 2: I-IIm-IIIm-III-Tritone-V-VI-VIIm

Third mode:
-Nonatonal 1: I-II-IIIm-III-Tritone-V-VIm-VIIm-VII
-Nonatonal 2: I-IIm-dimIII-III-IV-Tritone-VIm-VI-VIIm
-Nonatonal 3: I-IIm-IIIm-III-IV-V-VIm-VI-VII

Fourth mode: (I figured out a name for that one)
-Exercisal 1: I-IIm-II-IIIm-Tritone-V-VIm-VI
-Exercisal 2: I-IIm-II-IV-Tritone-V-VIm-VII
-Exercisal 3: I-IIm-III-IV-Tritone-V-VIIm-VII
-Exercisal 4: I-IIIm-III-IV-Tritone-VI-VIIm-VII

Fifth mode: (I also created him a name)
-Practicisal 1: I-II-IV-Tritone-V-VII
-Practicisal 2: I-III-IV-Tritone-VIIm-VII
-Practicisal 3: I-IIm-II-Tritone-V-VIm

Sixth mode: (no name for this one)
-ø 1: I-II-III-IV-Tritone-VIm-VIIm-VII
-ø 2: I-II-IIIm-III-Tritone-VIm-VI-VIIm
-ø 3: I-IIm-II-III-Tritone-V-VIm-VIIm
-ø 4: I-IIm-IIIm-IV-Tritone-V-VI-VII

Seventh (and last) mode:
-Decatonal 1: I-IIm-II-IIIm-IV-Tritone-V-VIm-VI-VII
-Decatonal 2: I-IIm-II-III-IV-Tritone-V-VIm-VIIm-VII
-Decatonal 3: I-IIm-IIIm-III-IV-Tritone-V-VI-VIIm-VII
-Decatonal 4: I-II-IIIm-III-IV-Tritone-VIm-VI-VIIm-VII
-Decatonal 5: I-IIm-II-IIIm-III-Tritone-V-VIm-VI-VIIm

You'll have to put feelings on them however, I just can't.


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## celticelk (Feb 26, 2015)

Aion said:


> I mean, the really old school stuff has its place (I certainly use it from time to time) but to use things the old fashioned way just because that is technically their most, "pure," form is kind of silly because you ignore hundreds (if not thousands) of years of musical development. While I definitely agree that a mode is more than just a scale, it is also a relationship between different intervals and the "home," note, it's only useful to look at modes the same way the Catholic Church looked at them if you want to build on the ideas used by the Catholic Church. Personally I believe there are many other ways to use them and that the ways used in modal jazz are much freer. So if you want to limit them, go ahead, but it's a self-imposed limitation rather than some kind of external pressure of how things "should," be done.
> 
> Once again, totally agree, everyone should explore the modes for themselves, break away from how things, "should," be done and do what they want to do, but modal jazz provides the ability to do that way more than classical, Renaissance, or pre-Renaissance music allows for.



It's not just Gregorian chant - *every* musical culture that I've read about so far that has a system for classifying scalar materials includes melodic prototypes as part of that system. Ragas, maqams, Jewish cantorial modes, various East Asian systems. Western art music is the exception, not the rule, and it's probably the exception because (a) we collapsed the modes into the major/minor tonal system, which requires less distinction; (b) the harmony and counterpoint rules in Western music fulfill a lot of the same function in terms of specifying the cadential movement of a piece - most of the systems I mentioned above are monophonic; (c) Western art music is very self-consciously about innovation, rather than working within a traditional system.

That said, yes, it's a self-imposed limitation, but one with some thought behind it. I'd rather get ideas for melodic materials from systems that have spent a lot more time working with those musical ideas than restrict myself to what a (relatively) few jazz artists have stolen or invented in the last sixty years (during most of which, remember, modal jazz has *not* been a dominant strain in jazz - the last thirty years have been all about neo-bop). The context in which I'll end up *using* that material is probably more modal jazz than anything else - I have no ambition to become a traditional flamenco or klezmer player - but I'd like to draw on the collective wisdom of those traditions in terms of what makes a good melody.


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## Aion (Feb 27, 2015)

celticelk said:


> I'd rather get ideas for melodic materials from systems that have spent a lot more time working with those musical ideas than restrict myself to what a (relatively) few jazz artists have stolen or invented in the last sixty years (during most of which, remember, modal jazz has *not* been a dominant strain in jazz - the last thirty years have been all about neo-bop). The context in which I'll end up *using* that material is probably more modal jazz than anything else - I have no ambition to become a traditional flamenco or klezmer player - but I'd like to draw on the collective wisdom of those traditions in terms of what makes a good melody.



Here's the problem with that, if you end up doing something like modal jazz, then chances are you are doing very little that's new. By knowing what has already been done you can find ways to subvert it and do interesting things. Whether or not modal jazz was dominant has nothing to do with anything. It's a vapid and erroneous point which equates popularity with quality. But if I can shake, shake, shake, shake, shake, shake, shake it off, then I'll simply say you should draw on as many different sources and styles as possible, but ignoring innovation and current trends (by which I refer to the music that grew out of modal jazz) is foolhardy if uniqueness is something you want. Of course, it might not be, in which case please continue as you are.


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## redstone (Feb 27, 2015)

The Omega Cluster said:


> You'll have to put feelings on them however, I just can't.



Sorry dear, I won't unless more players join the party.


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## octatoan (Feb 27, 2015)

This is nice. Theory nerds have arguments and we get to learn cool shit. Aah.


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## celticelk (Feb 27, 2015)

Aion said:


> Here's the problem with that, if you end up doing something like modal jazz, then chances are you are doing very little that's new. By knowing what has already been done you can find ways to subvert it and do interesting things. Whether or not modal jazz was dominant has nothing to do with anything. It's a vapid and erroneous point which equates popularity with quality. But if I can shake, shake, shake, shake, shake, shake, shake it off, then I'll simply say you should draw on as many different sources and styles as possible, but ignoring innovation and current trends (by which I refer to the music that grew out of modal jazz) is foolhardy if uniqueness is something you want. Of course, it might not be, in which case please continue as you are.



Apparently I didn't make my point very well, because you're arguing against a position I wasn't taking. My point about the age and non-dominance of modal jazz was that it has not had the time depth that traditions like flamenco and klezmer have had in which to develop a coherent melodic tradition. That's true, but I think there's a better way to make the point I was after: modal jazz is not a tradition in the way that flamenco and klezmer are. It's a loose categorization based on the use of nonfunctional harmony and relatively slow harmonic rhythm. In other words, it is not sufficiently *stylistically constrained* to generate functional rules for melodic construction in specific scales, which is what I'm looking for. Having studied those rules, of course, one can break them with impunity, but I find studying the rules a pleasing challenge in itself. It leads to music I find interesting, which in my eyes is a more worthwhile end goal than music that's "unique" (which is practically unavoidable anyway, unless you dedicate yourself to playing note-for-note reconstructions of a specific player's work).


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## bostjan (Feb 27, 2015)

Klezmer, although one of the oldest musical traditions still active, is hardly as structured as flamenco. I find it a little odd to lump those two together.


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## celticelk (Feb 27, 2015)

bostjan said:


> Klezmer, although one of the oldest musical traditions still active, is hardly as structured as flamenco. I find it a little odd to lump those two together.



No, but it's a damn sight more structured than modal jazz, and it uses several harmonic-minor-related scales natively, which is why I brought it into the conversation in the first place. It also draws to some extent from Jewish sacred music, which *is* significantly more structured.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Mar 5, 2015)

celticelk:

Boris Karlov - Bavno Horo


Phrygian dominant. That's the easy one, though.

Boris Karlov - Gankino Horo


My favorite kopanitsa. Dorian #4, at least at the beginning.

Dumitru Zamfira - Alunelul Înfundat


Another dorian #4.


Koncovka - A Slovakian fipple flute without toneholes. It plays the lydian-mixolydian scale (lydian &#9837;7, lydian dominant, whatever you want to call it; 1 2 3 #4 5 6 &#9837;7).


Tilinc&#259; - Another Carpathian overtone flute. Pretty much the same thing.


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## octatoan (Mar 5, 2015)

"And MBN returns to save the day!"
Whew. I thought you'd vanished like ole 80H.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Mar 5, 2015)

Leave? Me? Hey, I need something to do while work is slow.


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## celticelk (Mar 5, 2015)

Good to see you back, big guy!


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## The Omega Cluster (Mar 26, 2015)

Hey I just stumbled upon this scale (and extended it to see other modes of it) by analyzing some of my own music, and when I gathered all the scales/modes possible, earlier this year for my own curiosity's sake, they weren't there. So, maybe one of you knows this or these scales or modes and know if they are called by another name. I'll begin with the modified Ionian for reasons, but the one I used was the modified Dorian. Also, I'll give an example of one scale based on C for each mode.

1. Ionian b6 #1 (C-Db-Eb-Fb-Gb-Abb-Bb or enharmonically C-C#-D#-E-F#-G-A#)
2. Dorian b5 #7 (C-D-Eb-F-Gb-A-B)
3. Phrygian b4 #6 (C-Db-Eb-Fb-G-A-Bb)
4. Lydian b3 #5 (C-D-Eb-F#-G#-A-B)
5. Mixolydian b2 #4 (C-Db-E-F#-G-A-Bb)
6. Aeolian b1 #3 (C-D#-E#-F#-G#-A-B or C-D#-F-F#-G#-A-B)
7. Locrian b7 #2 (C-D-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-Bbb or C-D-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-A)

I've used arbitrary names so that they can be easily imagined if you already know the base modes (like Ionian, Dorian...) but they are probably known by other names too.

Also I'd like to know from what scale are these derived from? I know of the harmonic minor modes, the melodic minor ascending modes, the major harmonic modes, the double harmonic modes, and the seven Messiaen modes of limited transposition, but these alterations that i've written above didn't show up.

Halp!

EDIT: I found more! And at this point I suspect there are even more to uncover. The question is the same than above, but for another set of scales arbitrarily named.

1. Ionian b5 #1 (C-Db-Eb-Fb-Gbb-Ab-Bb or C-C#-D#-E-F-G#-A#)
2. Dorian b4 #7 (C-D-Eb-Fb-G-A-B)
3. Phrygian b3 #6 (C-Db-Ebb-F-G-A-Bb or C-C#-D-F-G-A-Bb)
4. Lydian b2 #5 (C-Db-E#-F#-G#-A-B)
5. Mixolydian b1 #4 (C-D#-E#-F##-G#-A#-B or C-D#-F-G-G#-A#-B)
6. Aeolian b7 #3 (C-D-E-F-G-Ab-Bbb)
7. Locrian b6 #2 (C-D-Eb-F-Gb-Abb-Bb)

EDIT 2: I keep finding more, I feel like I haven't even begun scratching the surface.


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## bostjan (Mar 26, 2015)

The Omega Cluster said:


> Hey I just stumbled upon this scale (and extended it to see other modes of it) by analyzing some of my own music, and when I gathered all the scales/modes possible, earlier this year for my own curiosity's sake, they weren't there. So, maybe one of you knows this or these scales or modes and know if they are called by another name. I'll begin with the modified Ionian for reasons, but the one I used was the modified Dorian. Also, I'll give an example of one scale based on C for each mode.
> 
> 1. Ionian b6 #1 (C-Db-Eb-Fb-Gb-Abb-Bb or enharmonically C-C#-D#-E-F#-G-A#)
> 2. Dorian b5 #7 (C-D-Eb-F-Gb-A-B)
> ...



There's no such thing as a #1.

12-7-62-F a.k.a. Diminuative Family

12-7-62-144 = b2 b3 b4 b5 bb6 b7 (Alternate Alt 6)
12-7-62-155 = b2 b3 b4 5 6 b7 (Javanese Dim 4)
12-7-62-220 a.k.a. Dori Major = b2 3 #4 5 6 b7
12-7-62-292 a.k.a. Diminuative = 2 b3 4 b5 b6 bb7
12-7-62-296 = 2 b3 4 b5 6 7
12-7-62-315 = 2 b3 #4 #5 6 7
12-7-62-421 = #2 #3 #4 #5 6 7


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## The Omega Cluster (Mar 26, 2015)

bostjan said:


> There's no such thing as a #1.
> 
> 12-7-62-F a.k.a. Diminuative Family
> 
> ...



That's why I said it's arbitrarily named. I guess that with the #1 you would still be able to figure it by yourself. Just keep the same notes as in the original scale (let's say Ionian) and sharpen the root by one semi-tone without moving the rest of the notes. It's pretty easy to imagine and do, and it gives a really neat-looking series of descending sharps (or flats) when going through the modes one by one (like if the Ionian is #1, then the Dorian will be #7, the Phrygian #6, and so on). It might not be technically or theoretically correct, but I never pretended such thing.


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## bostjan (Mar 26, 2015)

Ok. Just that 1 is your reference point. The other intervals are measured from there. So a bb2 or a x7 makes more sense in notation than a #1. I've seen it listed before, but if you keep in mind that notated intervals are approximations of JI intervals:

Root (1)
Second, Third, Sixth, and Seventh: diminished (bb), minor (b), major, and augmented (#), sometimes altered (x)
Fourth and Fifth: diminished (b), perfect, or augmented (#)

Anyway, the point of notation is to communicate, so as long as you get your point across, it's pretty much fine.

Anyway, you can see all possible scales in 12-EDO listed with systematic names and aliases at my personal site. I also have a huge list of scales in 19-EDO and their family relations (modalities) in a huge spreadsheet if you'd like, but it's pretty much just academic at that point.


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## Winspear (Mar 26, 2015)

Cool thread.
Omega, there are 462 possible 7 note scales. Your first set of scales there looks like modes of a scale called Ramipriya. Aside from major, harmonic minor, harmonic major, melodic minor, it's one of two remaining possible modal sets to build without consecutive semitones. 3212121 and 3121212


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## Winspear (Mar 26, 2015)

With regards to the first post of brightness to darkness, I once saw a system which I integrated into a spreadsheet I made (more on that in a moment)
Results of that would say 
lydian #2
ionian #5
dorian #4
harmonic minor aoelian #7
phyrgian dominant
locrian #6
ultralocrian

And that seems fairly accurate to my ear, especially if you play off the tonic 7th chords of each scale. 

The spreadsheet - It's an encyclopedia of all possible 7 note scales. Whatever you are after is in here somewhere. I wasn't going to share it yet as it's not finished but may as well.
It's in beta form and missing most of the names section and all audio, but let me know what you think. I'll eventually be delevoping it into an interactive software.
Encyclopedia


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## celticelk (Mar 27, 2015)

EtherealEntity said:


> Cool thread.
> Omega, there are 462 possible 7 note scales. Your first set of scales there looks like modes of a scale called Ramipriya. Aside from major, harmonic minor, harmonic major, melodic minor, it's one of two remaining possible modal sets to build without consecutive semitones. 3212121 and 3121212



Both of those modal sets can also be thought of as the diminished scale with one note omitted. I tend to think of them as Lydian b7b9 (the same scale that you described as "Mixolydian b2 #4") and Lydian b7#9.


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