# Aristides-are they holding up



## Chugalug (Dec 17, 2020)

I’ve been researching many guitars, mainly because I’ve been out of the loop for years, and after posting and looking at the benefits of customs, and productions One company keeps popping up, Aristides. Almost everyone brings them up for the multiscale or even standard scale option. Would love to hear your experienced opinions. 

All of their guitars are custom, but they’re all molded and seems like they’re overcharging for what they are. (I started an injection molding company, different industry and once the molds are made its autopilot from that point forward) For me I find it so hard to see the price point at what it’s at. Used ones have popped up from $2600-4000. That said everyone raves on these, so perhaps they’re truly worth it. I’m wondering how they’re holding up for users? The key things I have heard is if they break you’re SOL, since they’re composite one piece. That said had anyone had one break? That seed of doubt is always non-believers like to place, but I can see the truth in that too. If you strip a hole out...who knows why, but if you do, how do you fix it? The resonance thing to me seems a bit honky too, just because to me they’re like a reverse acoustic guitar with a cover over the back. I’m really not trying to knock these at all, just trying to get a solid response from non-endorsed players. As almost everyone of them had like 7 or 8 of them from what I see and many others like them as they are out of mold and will feel exactly the same vs a hand made custom or even a production guitar with good and bad QC. Again, I keep getting these thrown in the mix and am stupidly looking at them, as they do seem super awesome and as they said as a company had to up the game on finishes because they are molded.


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## FitRocker33 (Dec 17, 2020)

You listed one of the reasons I can’t bring myself to buy one as much as I want one:

If anything breaks or cracks on it, what luthier schooled in woodwork is going to be able to fix it, short of sending it back to the Netherlands at a premium.


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## Randy (Dec 17, 2020)

Can't speak to Aristides strength specifically but I do have a Curbow made using similar technology (injection molded foam and fiberglass composite) and it's very brittle structure. Feels like wood when it's stable, but if it breaks, it's kinda like craft foam inside. One thing I will say is that the Curbow at least it's very easy to repair with fiberglass resin.


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## mbardu (Dec 17, 2020)

By all accounts, they are solid. Not really seen users with structural issues, but were it to happen, they have great customer service to help you resolve things.

Are they "worth the money"? From a materials and process standpoint, nope. But then again, very few high end guitars are. There are a bunch of 10k$ PRS PS and ESP Customs out there with under 500$ of wood costs and yet people buy them. They are "worth the money" in the sense that they have utmost quality and playability for an electric guitar (up with the best traditional guitar makers), and as the market has proven - people are willing to pay the same top $ for that as for a guitar made of wood.


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## KnightBrolaire (Dec 17, 2020)

I own 2 Aristides. The proprietary material is very uniform and resonant. It's not some marketing line, they really are quite resonant and have great sustain, like a really good wood guitar will have. The material itself is very durable to general wear and tear like bumping headstocks into stuff, the guitar sliding away from where you lean it ime, etc. I've inadvertently dropped my 070 a few times and the worst thst happened was some paint flaked off on an edge of the headstock. Not even a ding. I'm sure if you absolutely abuse the shit out of your guitars you could really damage one but I haven't seen anything of the sort over the years I've been watching them.

From what I've seen as far as repairs being needed, outside of end user fuckups (eg drilling through the body when installing new pickups) they're a non-issue.
As far as cost, they're in line with other high end builders and they take great care in making the guitars. There are plenty of guys with more experience with super high end gear that like them a lot too fwiw. I think it says a lot when they've been getting consistently high praise for years. I haven't seen any grumblings about them other than the guitars sound TOO consistent. Some people don't like how they're basically a blank slate for whatever pickups you put in them. Conversely, that's why I love mine. The M7s and Avedissian Scythe pickups I have sound crushing in them, far better than when I had the same pickups in 8 string form.

I highly recommend checking the Aristides thread on here. Lot of info in there, or shoot brandon wall a message. He works for Aristides and hangs around here from time to time.


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## Chugalug (Dec 17, 2020)

mbardu said:


> By all accounts, they are solid. Not really seen users with structural issues, but were it to happen, they have great customer service to help you resolve things.
> 
> Are they "worth the money"? From a materials and process standpoint, nope. But then again, very few high end guitars are. There are a bunch of 10k$ PRS PS and ESP Customs out there with under 500$ of wood costs and yet people buy them. They are "worth the money" in the sense that they have utmost quality and playability for an electric guitar (up with the best traditional guitar makers), and as the market has proven - people are willing to pay the same top $ for that as for a guitar made of wood.


A builder like Koen at Vandermeij or a similar seems more worthy of my dollar. Like you said, it’s all in what we are willing to pay and want. I find myself to love innovation, and truly appreciate it. It’s great to hear they have spectacular customer service. They do reply quickly from my own experience searching for my next guitar and we’re very professional, a bit more than I expected, but figured I’d at least take a look.


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## mbardu (Dec 17, 2020)

Chugalug said:


> A builder like Koen at Vandermeij or a similar seems more worthy of my dollar. Like you said, it’s all in what we are willing to pay and want. I find myself to love innovation, and truly appreciate it. It’s great to hear they have spectacular customer service. They do reply quickly from my own experience searching for my next guitar and we’re very professional, a bit more than I expected, but figured I’d at least take a look.



_...funny you should mention that...not like I'm ordering a Vandermeij soon myself or anything, no...
_
It looks to me like Vandermeij is the next big "small" builder. I wouldn't be surprised if he is flooded with orders in the next couple of years, increases his prices a bit in the process- and still remains a pretty nice value regardless.


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## c7spheres (Dec 17, 2020)

- I suspect the price has to do with all the work involved. Looks like a ton of man hours from watching the videos of their factory tour. Probably moreso than a wood guitar from what it looks like, even though it's a molded guitar. 
- I don't own one but have thought similar things about reliability over time. Mostly because I know that resins over time can get brittle and such, but this is proprietary material so who knows. That being said I've only ever heard good stuff about them. 
- I asked before about how one would repair it incase something like a trem heigt screw breaks off and the anchor has to be pulled etc. or if there's a crack how would it be repaired but didn't get any response about it after asking a few times. I assume there's gotta be a common epoxy/resin that would work, but one wouldn't know until they tried. I suggested that Aristides sacrifice one and break it and repair it to see how well it comes out but it don't seem that's likely to happen. 
- The big thing that's prevernted me from further pursuing one is that lack of info on how to repair the material and also that there is no warranty. I've heard nothing but good things about the guitars and their customer service and understand they seem to be willing to work with customers when issues arise, but I just can't do it because of my own lack of trust. 
- I've played one once (an 080s) and it was absolutely phenomenal guitar. Easily in the top 5 guitars I've ever come across. The craftsmanship and detail are top tier for sure. The closest thing I could compar it to in terms of quality would be a Parker Fly which I use to own but I'd dare to say it was even better in those terms because of customizability and better hardware too. 
- They are also heavy in wieght (which I like) and the neck feels great. The 080s felt almost effortless within minutes other than ot the low frets on the low string but that's because I had never played a multiscale guitar at that point. 
- I see lot of them on th used market. Maybe try a used one to check it out and if you don't like you could likely recoupe your money that way?


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## Chugalug (Dec 17, 2020)

c7spheres said:


> - I suspect the price has to do with all the work involved. Looks like a ton of man hours from watching the videos of their factory tour. Probably moreso than a wood guitar from what it looks like, even though it's a molded guitar.
> - I don't own one but have thought similar things about reliability over time. Mostly because I know that resins over time can get brittle and such, but this is proprietary material so who knows. That being said I've only ever heard good stuff about them.
> - I asked before about how one would repair it incase something like a trem heigt screw breaks off and the anchor has to be pulled etc. or if there's a crack how would it be repaired but didn't get any response about it after asking a few times. I assume there's gotta be a common epoxy/resin that would work, but one wouldn't know until they tried. I suggested that Aristides sacrifice one and break it and repair it to see how well it comes out but it don't seem that's likely to happen.
> - The big thing that's prevernted me from further pursuing one is that lack of info on how to repair the material and also that there is no warranty. I've heard nothing but good things about the guitars and their customer service and understand they seem to be willing to work with customers when issues arise, but I just can't do it because of my own lack of trust.
> ...



Thanks! I’m glad I’m not the only one thinking that and have the same fear of repairs. Aside from manufacturing with molds I also come from a custom furniture background, so wood is close to my heart. Yes, I said it 

I actually wanted a Parker Fly around 2005 and the ones I played were so comfortable and sounded amazing! I’m debating hard on a used one, but then I get that fear in my head, especially since I’m a 1 to 2 guitar type of guy and this will be the first new guitar I’ve purchased in over a decade. So for me it’s a very big deal, as I always played on lower end guitars and every time I played on a higher end guitar in a shop, etc they usually just felt better in my hand, maybe it’s a just a mind thing, but some made me feel like playing was easier/smoother and increased my enjoyment. So for myself I’ve tried to research like crazy and have a list in mind right now; Vandermeij custom, used Aristides, new Ibanez RG5221, ESP, Schecter KM6 USA. It’s been easy to justify a price jump to each level, and then all of a sudden I’m thinking, how did I get to a $4k lol.


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## Winspear (Dec 17, 2020)

Remember the moulding only gets you as far as essentially a routed + shaped body and neck. I don't think this part of traditional luthiery is where the hard work or magic happens, either. The $ is in finishing, fretwork, details etc which they excel at. Besides that, the construction is quite a bit more complex than plain injection moulding anyway. 
I would absolutely expect a moulded stage Aristides.

Personally they are one of just a few brands I have any plans of buying going forward. (Own one, have played ~6)


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## c7spheres (Dec 17, 2020)

Chugalug said:


> Thanks! I’m glad I’m not the only one thinking that and have the same fear of repairs. Aside from manufacturing with molds I also come from a custom furniture background, so wood is close to my heart. Yes, I said it
> 
> I actually wanted a Parker Fly around 2005 and the ones I played were so comfortable and sounded amazing! I’m debating hard on a used one, but then I get that fear in my head, especially since I’m a 1 to 2 guitar type of guy and this will be the first new guitar I’ve purchased in over a decade. So for me it’s a very big deal, as I always played on lower end guitars and every time I played on a higher end guitar in a shop, etc they usually just felt better in my hand, maybe it’s a just a mind thing, but some made me feel like playing was easier/smoother and increased my enjoyment. So for myself I’ve tried to research like crazy and have a list in mind right now; Vandermeij custom, used Aristides, new Ibanez RG5221, ESP, Schecter KM6 USA. It’s been easy to justify a price jump to each level, and then all of a sudden I’m thinking, how did I get to a $4k lol.



I'd go with an Arisitides over Parker nowadays simply because of the fact that Paker is no longer in business, the aluminum bridge on them is proprietary and if anything happens to that (or even the leaf spring in the back) It would probably be far more difficult to repair, imo or find parts for. I think with the Aristides it would be just a matter of finding the proper epoxy to repair it with. The Parker's are obviously wood underneath rather than solid like an Aristides though. I prefered the Aristides overall even just in terms of playability and comfort, but yeah, I still would like to see Aristides (or someone) show a broken/cracked one being repaired and how they do it. I'm guesing it's not as big a deal as it seems, but I know wood and how to repair it. No experimenting or uncertainty involved. 
- Assuming nothing ever broke on it though the Aristides is totally worth the money, imo, although it is expensive. I know a lot of man hours goes in to them from seeing those vids.


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## bzhang9 (Dec 18, 2020)

I still think they are overrated and overpriced. They don't play or sound better than any other high end guitar, or my <1k used prestiges really. They don't have anything special besides being made out of molded material, which is fine if you hate wood I guess. No top notch electronics like EBMMS, no innovative features like strandys or parkers, not customizable like a kiesel. Neck profile is nice, body design is awful, no arm contour, cuts into the arm, thin but heavy, and whats the point of those cutouts on top? Just felt like a heavy hunk of cold hollow metal that I was to worried about dinging up for all the reasons above.


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## diagrammatiks (Dec 18, 2020)

so many spicy takes in here. 

Guitars are only wood and metal.

The only thing you need to consider when you buy one is do you like it and can you afford it.


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## Stuck_in_a_dream (Dec 18, 2020)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I own 2 Aristides. The proprietary material is very uniform and resonant. It's not some marketing line, they really are quite resonant and have great sustain, like a really good wood guitar will have. The material itself is very durable to general wear and tear like bumping headstocks into stuff, the guitar sliding away from where you lean it ime, etc. I've inadvertently dropped my 070 a few times and the worst thst happened was some paint flaked off on an edge of the headstock. Not even a ding. I'm sure if you absolutely abuse the shit out of your guitars you could really damage one but I haven't seen anything of the sort over the years I've been watching them.
> 
> From what I've seen as far as repairs being needed, outside of end user fuckups (eg drilling through the body when installing new pickups) they're a non-issue.
> As far as cost, they're in line with other high end builders and they take great care in making the guitars. There are plenty of guys with more experience with super high end gear that like them a lot too fwiw. I think it says a lot when they've been getting consistently high praise for years. I haven't seen any grumblings about them other than the guitars sound TOO consistent. Some people don't like how they're basically a blank slate for whatever pickups you put in them. Conversely, that's why I love mine. The M7s and Avedissian Scythe pickups I have sound crushing in them, far better than when I had the same pickups in 8 string form.
> ...



^ couldn't have said it better myself, and it's exactly how I feel about these guitars. I have one from earlier this yr, a black 7-string 070R, and it's a dream instrument in every way, ridiculously low action, resonant, top notch craftsmanship, and great ppl to boot. I just ordered my 2nd one, a yellow H/08R. Is it worth it? If u're not too keen on a fancy finish, the raw series offers great value. 

IMHO, compared w/ offerings from companies like Kiesel, I'd say there's no comparison. You get a superior product at more or less what u pay now at these more traditional custom shops. Highly recommended!


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## Winspear (Dec 18, 2020)

My sentence got cut off haha - I meant to say I would absolutely expect a moulded stage Aristides to cost more than routed wood.



diagrammatiks said:


> The only thing you need to consider when you buy one is do you like it and can you afford it.



I definitely agree. I don't find much worth in 'worth' discussions. There are so many factors that could make essentially the same guitar worth more or less from different companies. Are you planning to sell it ? They hold value well (unless you have terrible finish taste ). Otherwise, very much just a case of whether you like it vs budget , personally. They are priced in a similar ballpark to any of the high end luthiers they get compared to.


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## narad (Dec 18, 2020)

This has become my favorite of the chameleons.


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## The Mirror (Dec 18, 2020)

Not trying to pull the environmentalist card too hard, but really, if we can build guitars that sound perfect without cutting down trees, why are we still cutting down trees?

Not even accounting for the fact that they single handedly erased any "tonewood" discussion.

An electric guitar is only any piece of hard material that can hold the tension of a string for electronics to produce a sound. As far as I am concerned we should stop making guitars out of wood, immediately.

I have been a PRS (SE) guy exclusively for over 10 years now, but once Aristides (or any other comparable company) gets into a decent pricerange I'd sell all my SEs on the spot.


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## Millul (Dec 18, 2020)

The Mirror said:


> Not trying to pull the environmentalist card too hard, but really, if we can build guitars that sound perfect without cutting down trees, why are we still cutting down trees?
> 
> Not even accounting for the fact that they single handedly erased any "tonewood" discussion.
> 
> ...



I am far from an expert on the subject, but, are we sure using resins is more environment-frinedly than using wood? Aren't those petrochemical products?

Actually trying to run a quick research on this as I post during my lunch break


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## possumkiller (Dec 18, 2020)

The Mirror said:


> Not trying to pull the environmentalist card too hard, but really, if we can build guitars that sound perfect without cutting down trees, why are we still cutting down trees?
> 
> Not even accounting for the fact that they single handedly erased any "tonewood" discussion.
> 
> ...


Aren't these some kind of plastic though? Are they biodegradable? If a container full of inevitable cheap Chinese import Aristides falls into the ocean, are they going to decompose or strangle the sealife to death with their bear hands?


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## TheInvisibleHand (Dec 18, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> so many spicy takes in here.
> 
> Guitars are only wood and metal.
> 
> The only thing you need to consider when you buy one is do you like it and can you afford it.



And even then, the second consideration is a non factor for most people.

"Can I afford it? No. Am I going to buy it anyways? YES."


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## Lorcan Ward (Dec 18, 2020)

The Mirror said:


> Not trying to pull the environmentalist card too hard, but really, if we can build guitars that sound perfect without cutting down trees, why are we still cutting down trees?
> 
> Not even accounting for the fact that they single handedly erased any "tonewood" discussion.
> 
> ...



Where does this misinformation come from that wood is bad? And then that plastic is good for the environment?

Wood is an easily renewable source that converts carbon into oxygen and traps it.

plastic is not renewable and produces carbon in its production. In no way is a plastic guitar more environmentally friendly, it is much worse. Not that anyone should take the high ground having a wood guitar since all our guitar cases are made of plastic and is a fraction of what we use annually in our food packaging but it’s gets thrown around a lot that using plastic instead of wood is good for the planet.


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## Chugalug (Dec 18, 2020)

Lorcan Ward said:


> Where does this misinformation come from that wood is bad? And then that plastic is good for the environment?
> 
> Wood is an easily renewable source that converts carbon into oxygen and traps it.
> 
> plastic is not renewable and produces carbon in its production. In no way is a plastic guitar more environmentally friendly, it is much worse. Not that anyone should take the high ground having a wood guitar since all our guitar cases are made of plastic but it’s gets thrown around a lot that using plastic instead of wood is good for the planet.




I think the world has made it hard for some to see with all the media hype. I live in the NE and just had land cleared, yes, sorry for those that will punish me, but in my clearing process I was told that if I leave this area without keeping it clear it will be back to trees in no time...some of the trees grow faster than others. Look at pictures of Vermont from the settlers days and now...it was the green mountain state because it was cleared and mostly farm land. Then come to present day it’s the reverse all trees and everyone wants to protect them, but not cutting is very detrimental to the forest and eco-system. 

If I burn plastic or a chemical formed product and breath it in I could die or have a much higher chance of cancer. If I burn wood I won’t die, and it doesn’t hurt e environment and it will grow back, of course some woods do need protected as they only grow in certain areas and they need protected. 

I started this post to see how these are holding up. With innovation comes questions and really Aristides should do some form of long term review and show what happens if they break and how they’d fix it or take care of it. I had an epoxy resin surfboard years ago, got a ding, and the shop gave me a quick patch. Unknowing I used it and it melted my foam...literally turned the foam inside to liquid and created a massive cavity. I was devastated. Be careful if you try to repair one yourself as chemicals can react to others in bad ways. I’d send mine back and hopefully they’d take care of it minus shipping fees, but again not many post on that, so perhaps no one ever has had an issue and perhaps they are just that solid or time hasn’t snuck up on the degradation of the product material.

All said they still seem like amazing guitars, and like I mentioned and as stated here, almost everyone loves them once they play one.


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## bzhang9 (Dec 18, 2020)

concerning about wood use in guitars is like concerning about gas use in my lawnmower...

i have furniture enough to make 50 guitars, my house has enough wood to make 1000 guitars, a commercial building has enough wood to make 10000 guitars etc


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 18, 2020)

It's not really about wood in general, but the species harvested and the associated supply chain. 

Most wood for consumer products, including guitars, comes from renewable sources, including tree farms. 

Where it gets dicey, and requires legislation like CITES, is that a lot of the "exotic" species that folks like seeing in fancy tops and fretboards are from conflict regions and not sustainably harvested.


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## Flappydoodle (Dec 18, 2020)

I have one Aristides, which I've owned for more than 2 years now. It's a really great guitar.

For the material, yes it's different, but that isn't what makes the guitar awesome. How often do you think about the construction materials when you play a guitar? Never, right?

It's super comfortable, sounds incredible, plays easily. Moreover, the build quality is immaculate.

I did read that for minor problems, you can fix it much like a wood guitar, basically just filling in tiny holes (if you screw too deep etc) with wood glue.



Chugalug said:


> A builder like Koen at Vandermeij or a similar seems more worthy of my dollar. Like you said, it’s all in what we are willing to pay and want. I find myself to love innovation, and truly appreciate it. It’s great to hear they have spectacular customer service. They do reply quickly from my own experience searching for my next guitar and we’re very professional, a bit more than I expected, but figured I’d at least take a look.



Vandermejj is another which has just come about through Instagram, basically. I remember about 18 months ago they were pretty obscure. Hell, I think I made a thread here about them and there were basically no replies. Now the full internet hype train is on board for them.

On the other hand, I think by now Aristides has actually proven their staying power. Several new models successfully released, and the "hype" has died down but they're now a staple brand of modern guitars. They're a fairly large operation now and they've managed to scale up, stay consistent with quality and build/wait times.



bzhang9 said:


> I still think they are overrated and overpriced. They don't play or sound better than any other high end guitar, or my <1k used prestiges really. They don't have anything special besides being made out of molded material, which is fine if you hate wood I guess. No top notch electronics like EBMMS, no innovative features like strandys or parkers, not customizable like a kiesel. Neck profile is nice, body design is awful, no arm contour, cuts into the arm, thin but heavy, and whats the point of those cutouts on top? Just felt like a heavy hunk of cold hollow metal that I was to worried about dinging up for all the reasons above.



Overpriced? They start at €2,000, which is super reasonable. 2/3 of the entry level of ESP. 1/2 the price of a USA Jackson. And IMO they play WAY better than many other high end guitars. The fretwork is miles ahead of anything Ibanez does.

And for wiring, they can do lots of stuff. Piezo is possible. And they'll set up any sort of configuration of coil splits, switches etc that you want.


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## soliloquy (Dec 18, 2020)

this is not my experience or wisdom, as i dont have any experience with any of the brands, but for what its worth, and if i'm not mistaken, Parker guitars were also made of epoxy/fiber glass kind of material. They had been around since 97, and i didn't come across any particular horror stories about them breaking and how the owners were SOL. 

I'm sure they have broken. I'm sure they CAN break. but it must be a very rare occurrence of owners absolutely mishandling their gear in order for them break. dont think they are as fragile as one fears them to be.


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## Mathemagician (Dec 18, 2020)

Lorcan Ward said:


> Where does this misinformation come from that wood is bad? And then that plastic is good for the environment?
> 
> Wood is an easily renewable source that converts carbon into oxygen and traps it.
> 
> plastic is not renewable and produces carbon in its production. In no way is a plastic guitar more environmentally friendly, it is much worse. Not that anyone should take the high ground having a wood guitar since all our guitar cases are made of plastic and is a fraction of what we use annually in our food packaging but it’s gets thrown around a lot that using plastic instead of wood is good for the planet.



A more measured take is that “wood farms” manage their stock in a very sustainable manner. However many specific woods used on guitars are often not. See the change in sources for mahogany over the last 20 years. (African, Honduran, etc)

And the regulations on rosewood as well as the shift in ebony usage. 

From PRS- The trees when chopped down are not uniformly black throughout so often a large portion of the ebony harvest was simply thrown away. Now companies have begun offering “cheaper” ebony that is less consistent and pricier options that is more uniform in order to reduce waste. 

How sustainable a species is depends on the volume being harvested and what regulations exist to protect it. 

Meanwhile a perfectly black FB can easily be reached with richlite without the cutting down of a tree, the waste, or the environmental impact of transportation. 

There’s room for booth.


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## angl2k (Dec 18, 2020)

Flappydoodle said:


> Overpriced? They start at €2,000, which is super reasonable. 2/3 of the entry level of ESP. 1/2 the price of a USA Jackson. And IMO they play WAY better than many other high end guitars. The fretwork is miles ahead of anything Ibanez does.



Man, I wish I can buy an Aristides for 2k eur but I have to pay 21% extra tax and they are next door to me 

Does tax not apply when exporting to the US?


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## KnightBrolaire (Dec 18, 2020)

angl2k said:


> Man, I wish I can buy an Aristides for 2k eur but I have to pay 21% extra tax and they are next door to me
> 
> Does tax not apply when exporting to the US?


No. VAT doesn't apply to the USA but there are customs fees


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## angl2k (Dec 18, 2020)

KnightBrolaire said:


> No. VAT doesn't apply to the USA but there are customs fees



I guess I'm getting shafted by the EU then ugh. When importing from the US I have to play 21% tax and then some custom fees, clearance fees, which boils down to an extra 25% of the price of the guitar :|

So you guys overseas actually get a dutch guitar cheaper than us dutchies


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## KnightBrolaire (Dec 18, 2020)

angl2k said:


> I guess I'm getting shafted by the EU then ugh. When importing from the US I have to play 21% tax and then some custom fees, clearance fees, which boils down to an extra 25% of the price of the guitar :|
> 
> So you guys overseas actually get a dutch guitar cheaper than us dutchies


>cheap healthcare and education
>cheap guitars
pick one


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## diagrammatiks (Dec 18, 2020)

guitarists are like

15,000 car. probably just gonna last 10 years.
2000 recording pc. gonna upgrade it in 5 years.
2000 guitar that's gonna be flipped in 3 weeks? if it doesn't survive a direct nuclear hit it's overpriced.


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## possumkiller (Dec 18, 2020)

Mathemagician said:


> Meanwhile a perfectly black FB can easily be reached with richlite without the cutting down of a tree, the waste, or the environmental impact of transportation.
> 
> There’s room for booth.


Isn't richlite compressed paper? Don't trees have to be cut down to make the paper?


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 18, 2020)

possumkiller said:


> Isn't richlite compressed paper? Don't trees have to be cut down to make the paper?



The paper in Richlite is all recycled. So while at some point a tree needed to be chopped down, it didn't need to be chopped down to make the Richlite specifically. It also isn't as dependent on the type of tree as it has the resin to stabilize. 

Still not sure how environmentally friendly it is, being 35% phenolic resin.


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## BigViolin (Dec 18, 2020)

Phenols are fucking nasty.


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## Emperoff (Dec 18, 2020)

Mathemagician said:


> From PRS- The trees when chopped down are not uniformly black throughout so often a large portion of the ebony harvest was simply thrown away. Now companies have begun offering “cheaper” ebony that is less consistent and pricier options that is more uniform in order to reduce waste.



Not PRS nor regulations related. Actually it was Taylor guitars who bought the rights to harvest ebony in the only remaining country allowed to. They were who decided to also use "non black" ebony instead of throwing it away since now they manage global distribution of it.

_*Every*_ guitarist should really watch this video:


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## Mathemagician (Dec 18, 2020)

Yes thank you, that’s exactly what I was referencing. I appreciate the correction! It’s why I support the use of alternative sources where applicable. 

If we are careful with resources we’ll avoid a potential future state where we “can’t” use woods. I’d like both to remain options.


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## teamSKDM (Dec 18, 2020)

bzhang9 said:


> I still think they are overrated and overpriced. They don't play or sound better than any other high end guitar, or my <1k used prestiges really. They don't have anything special besides being made out of molded material, which is fine if you hate wood I guess. No top notch electronics like EBMMS, no innovative features like strandys or parkers, not customizable like a kiesel. Neck profile is nice, body design is awful, no arm contour, cuts into the arm, thin but heavy, and whats the point of those cutouts on top? Just felt like a heavy hunk of cold hollow metal that I was to worried about dinging up for all the reasons above.


 technically the selling point of the material isnt that it sounds better than a normal guitar its that its more stable than a wood guitar. thats the only real pro about these guitars vs a normal guitar. plenty of wood guitars have been built with probably even more resonance than an aristedes throught the decades, but this material produces that level of resonance every single time. IMO what it does better than a normal guitar isnt anything related to sound , but the guitars resistence to degredation. for your money this guitar will last longer and look newer longer than a wood guitar in theory. their new headless design is also the first time a multiscale and a tremolo and an angled bridge pickup have all succesfully been done on one guitar, so they get kudos for finally figuring out that dilema of multiscale + tremolo which in the past required straight pickups if you look at strandbergs which ended up sounding like a middle pickup because how far the gap was from the bass end of the pickup and the bridge saddles.


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## MetalDaze (Dec 18, 2020)

The company has been around long enough that if the guitars had some serious design flaws it would be all over the forums. 

It’s marketed as a premium product and the quality and attention to detail is there. I have a 060R and it is great...but it hasn’t made me abandon all of the other great guitars I own too


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 18, 2020)

teamSKDM said:


> technically the selling point of the material isnt that it sounds better than a normal guitar its that its more stable than a wood guitar. thats the only real pro about these guitars vs a normal guitar. plenty of wood guitars have been built with probably even more resonance than an aristedes throught the decades, but this material produces that level of resonance every single time. IMO what it does better than a normal guitar isnt anything related to sound , but the guitars resistence to degredation. for your money this guitar will last longer and look newer longer than a wood guitar in theory. their new headless design is also the first time a multiscale and a tremolo and an angled bridge pickup have all succesfully been done on one guitar, so they get kudos for finally figuring out that dilema of multiscale + tremolo which in the past required straight pickups if you look at strandbergs which ended up sounding like a middle pickup because how far the bass end was from the bridge saddles.



Arium doesn't defy physics, it'll expand and contract with changing temperature/seasons, and the finishes and other materials don't present anything that would, on its face, allow for a longer lifespan. Wooden guitars can last hundreds of years, we know that. Traditional electric guitars easily outlive thier original owners. 

It's consistency that's really the primary advantage, and some day, if they figure out how to make the molds/forms cheaper they'll likely be able to do some really interesting stuff thanks to how thier process works. 

As for fanned, angled, and tremolo, they're far from the first. Heck, Agile did that over a decade ago, Halo even before that, and Sherman back even further (something like 20 years ago now). I know Conklin has done a few over the decades as well. 

Not hating on Aristides, they make really well made guitars and have a unique process and appeal, which is worth gold in this industry.


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## bostjan (Dec 18, 2020)

bzhang9 said:


> concerning about wood use in guitars is like concerning about gas use in my lawnmower...
> 
> i have furniture enough to make 50 guitars, my house has enough wood to make 1000 guitars, a commercial building has enough wood to make 10000 guitars etc





possumkiller said:


> Isn't richlite compressed paper? Don't trees have to be cut down to make the paper?


Richlite is made of softwood fiber. Softwood trees grow 5 times as rapidly and can be grown in places where exotic woods like ebony cannot grow.

I tried making a neck out of pine once just to see what would happen, and, well, pine has no stiffness, so the entire neck just bent like a bow (bow and arrow). I tried doing the same with a 2x4, much thicker than any playable neck and- same thing. Similar problems with cedar. Spruce works, though, but whatever, all of the wood in your house is probably pine and definitely not spruce, unless you are Howard Hughes's nephew or something.

So, much to the chagrin of the most vehement "anti-tonewood" people, not all wood is just wood. Different species of trees produce different kinds of wood with different mechanical parameters, and most of it is not suitable for building a neck (where you need very high stiffness) or a fretboard (where you need very high hardness). Materials like richlite or ebanol or micarta can be made out of cheap and fast-growing pine fibers and resin, and can be engineered to whatever stiffness and/or hardness is necessary for the various parts of a guitar. But I agree that the resin is also an environmental issue.

But all of this is derailing the thread anyway. If anyone wants a guitar made out of wooly mammoth bones and dodo eggs, knock yourself out.


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## teamSKDM (Dec 18, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Arium doesn't defy physics, it'll expand and contract with changing temperature/seasons, and the finishes and other materials don't present anything that would, on its face, allow for a longer lifespan. Wooden guitars can last hundreds of years, we know that. Traditional electric guitars easily outlive thier original owners.
> 
> It's consistency that's really the primary advantage, and some day, if they figure out how to make the molds/forms cheaper they'll likely be able to do some really interesting stuff thanks to how thier process works.
> 
> ...


now that you mention it , I did almost forget about the abomination known as the kahler multiscale tremolo. I almost wish I could forget about it again. but aristedes did do it the first time using both a headless and a locking nut, which the kahler uses a plain a slotted nut and is just an impractical piece of hardware in general. the aristedes is still the first regularly functioning tremolo that floats between springs like a floyd rose and still allows an angled pickup.


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## KnightBrolaire (Dec 18, 2020)

bostjan said:


> Richlite is made of softwood fiber. Softwood trees grow 5 times as rapidly and can be grown in places where exotic woods like ebony cannot grow.
> 
> I tried making a neck out of pine once just to see what would happen, and, well, pine has no stiffness, so the entire neck just bent like a bow (bow and arrow). I tried doing the same with a 2x4, much thicker than any playable neck and- same thing. Similar problems with cedar. Spruce works, though, but whatever, all of the wood in your house is probably pine and definitely not spruce, unless you are Howard Hughes's nephew or something.
> 
> ...


I mean there are guys that swear by mammoth bone picks or nuts as though it's some holy grail of ToAn. Then again there are truly insane people like Eric Johnson who claims he can tell the difference between batteries in his pedals, so I guess it's not that insane...


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 18, 2020)

teamSKDM said:


> now that you mention it , I did almost forget about the abomination known as the kahler multiscale tremolo. I almost wish I could forget about it again. but aristedes did do it the first time using both a headless and a locking nut, which the kahler uses a plain a slotted nut and is just an impractical piece of hardware in general. the aristedes is still the first regularly functioning tremolo that floats between springs like a floyd rose and still allows an angled pickup.



I'm not a huge Kahler fan, but it's not as far removed in function from a fulcrum trem as you think. 

If you want to exclude Kahlers then Forsage, Claas, and Conklin still get a nod. The former two if headless. 

I'm probably missing a bunch too, as there have been fanned (and headless) capable fulcrum trems available for quite some time now.


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## teamSKDM (Dec 18, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'm not a huge Kahler fan, but it's not as far removed in function from a fulcrum trem as you think.
> 
> If you want to exclude Kahlers then Forsage, Claas, and Conklin still get a nod. The former two if headless.
> 
> I'm probably missing a bunch too, as there have been fanned (and headless) capable fulcrum trems available for quite some time now.













I was unaware of claas guitars doing this but i have seen other builders using the t4m tremolos with both straight pickups and angles, but their design is still flawed in my opinion as with others doing the same. the t4m and claas tremolo is still designed to be used with a straight pickup and their resolution to fixing the pickup angle is pushing the treble side of the pickup farther up , when the more appropriate solution is pulling the bass end of the pickup back like aristedes custom tremolo.


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## Zhysick (Dec 18, 2020)

If any of you is concerned about the environment then stop buying new guitars and just buy used ones. That's the most enviromental friendly you can go. 

All new guitars are going to impact on the environment in one way or another and neither one is going to be good. 

So, unless you are going the hard way and really do what you must to protect the environment, then just buy the guitar you want and stop making up things to wash out your burdens about buying something made out of wood... 

Well, not a very popular opinion I guess.

Cheers!


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## bzhang9 (Dec 18, 2020)

Flappydoodle said:


> Overpriced? They start at €2,000, which is super reasonable. 2/3 of the entry level of ESP. 1/2 the price of a USA Jackson. And IMO they play WAY better than many other high end guitars. The fretwork is miles ahead of anything Ibanez does.
> 
> And for wiring, they can do lots of stuff. Piezo is possible. And they'll set up any sort of configuration of coil splits, switches etc that you want.



Meh new ones are 3k+ USD, same tier as ESPs, USA Jackson, EBMM, J customs etc. Anyone thinking they are way better than other 3k+ guitars is fanboying, at that price point its just preference as many attest they are just different not better. "miles better" fretwork than J custom is just plain false.

Still, point stands their body design is not good, so thin but heavy, no contours, and cutouts that don't seem to have any purpose? Neck and heel feels nice I'll give them that.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 18, 2020)

teamSKDM said:


> I was unaware of claas guitars doing this but i have seen other builders using the t4m tremolos with both straight pickups and angles, but their design is still flawed in my opinion as with others doing the same. the tremolo is still designed to be used with a straight pickup and their resolution to fixing the pickup angle is pushing the treble side farther up , when the more appropriate solution is pulling the bass end of the pickup back like aristedes custom tremolo.



The difference in fans and layouts muddles things a bit, but if you look at them dead on, the difference is negligible. 


Claas:



Forshage:


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## teamSKDM (Dec 18, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> The difference in fans and layouts muddles things a bit, but if you look at them dead on, the difference is negligible.
> 
> 
> Claas:
> ...


 I still think that design only caters to the high strings when the issue of tone with a straight pickup on an angled tremolo is often in the low strings sounding more like a middle pickup.


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## Forkface (Dec 18, 2020)

man, I found this thread funny, like.. y'all break guitars on a regular basis or...?
Wood is not a particularly super strong material, and still, short of going pete townshend on them, they really don't break that often, if at all. 

Gibson headstocks do but thats poor design moreso than the material.


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## Mathemagician (Dec 18, 2020)

Zhysick said:


> If any of you is concerned about the environment then stop buying new guitars and just buy used ones. That's the most enviromental friendly you can go.
> 
> All new guitars are going to impact on the environment in one way or another and neither one is going to be good.
> 
> ...



This is the weirdest take I ever see on discussions of sustainable production of well, anything.

No one is “making up things for washing away feelings”.

It’s easier to get black fretboards for guitars using a compound than wood in many cases. People like dark black FB’s and who aren’t picky about tonewood would like that as an option.

And this forum’s motto is literally “SSO - just buy a used prestige”.

I’d just like to see some ebony/black richlite on used prestige’s?


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## Zhysick (Dec 18, 2020)

Mathemagician said:


> This is the weirdest take I ever see on discussions of sustainable production of well, anything.
> 
> No one is “making up things for washing away feelings”.
> 
> ...



Maybe I didn't explained myself properly because english is not my main language but what I wanted to say is more or less the opposite. Some said that "trees need to be cut down, that's good for the environment". Yeah, that's right up to some point but it's not that easy. Others said that "using other sources is better because you don't cut down trees" well... thats true to a point but it's not absolute true because, in both takes, you are impacting negatively the environment in one way or another.

If you don't want to impact negatively the environment then don't buy new as the already made guitars have done their impact, don't "make more impact"... but, if not, just buy what you want.

I am fan of richlite. I like technical wood. But you are still cutting trees (for different things and it is much more sustainable than cutting down a whole tree for two or three pieces of wood) BUT still impacting so, unless you want to go really hardcore in the environmental thing, just buy what you like and be happy man. More or less is going to be bad for the environment. Every time you fart you are hurting the environment anyway


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 18, 2020)

teamSKDM said:


> I still think that design only caters to the high strings when the issue of tone with a straight pickup on an angled tremolo is often in the low strings sounding more like a middle pickup.



I never mentioned Strandberg.

If you compare the Forshage to the Aristides, the spacing (distance from each saddle to the pickup) is pretty much identical, relative to scale, etc.

You're not really going to get closer without shifting too far laterally when using the bar.

Offsetting the posts, (which Conklin did in the 90's) can get you an extra millimeter or two as far as scooting the bass side closer, but the cost is sideways movement which detracts from function of the bridge.

The Hantug goes with a compromise, as does the T4M, it just depends where you want to compromise.


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## teamSKDM (Dec 18, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I never mentioned Strandberg.
> 
> If you compare the Forshage to the Aristides, the spacing (distance from each saddle to the pickup) is pretty much identical, relative to scale, etc.
> 
> ...



I just used the strandberg tremolo to show the issue that would arise if those same builds had a straight pickup, which is why they didnt use a straight pickup in those builds. nor do I think their solulution fully solves the dilemna. It may balance the tone but it does nothing for the low end vs bringing the entire low end back closer to the saddle. heres a better shot than the one i posted earlier where you can see the aristedes is definitely closer spacing and more consistent the the other photo. probably the angle in the other one.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 18, 2020)

teamSKDM said:


> I just used the strandberg tremolo to show the issue that would arise if those same builds hand a straight pickup, which is why they didnt use a straight pickup in those builds. nor do I think their solulution fully solves the dilemna. It may balance the tone but it does nothing for the low end vs bringing the entire low end back closer to the saddle.



Again, the saddle to pickup difference is well within standard deviation, and more important to this line of discussion, it's just about identical with the Hantug. 

Look at the spacing on fairly popular Ibanez, ESP, and Schecter designs:


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## teamSKDM (Dec 18, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Again, the saddle to pickup difference is well within standard deviation, and more important to this line of discussion, it's just about identical with the Hantug.
> 
> Look at the spacing on fairly popular Ibanez, ESP, and Schecter designs:
> 
> ...


the last aristedes I just shared is much closer in spacing to the esp ibanez etc guitars than all the others we shared prior


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## teamSKDM (Dec 18, 2020)

do you think the pickup routes are included in the molds for aristedes? or are they maybe something that can be installed and adjusted after the process ? maybe they can pull the pickup farther back if you request it


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 18, 2020)

teamSKDM said:


> do you think the pickup routes are included in the molds for aristedes? or are they maybe something that can be installed and adjusted after the process ?



They seem to be able to add whatever pickups folks want, so I assume they can be moved/adjusted. @brandonwall could probably answer that for you.


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## teamSKDM (Dec 18, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> They seem to be able to add whatever pickups folks want, so I assume they can be moved/adjusted. @brandonwall could probably answer that for you.


so i still stand by my original claim that aristedes are the only ones to actually succeed in finding a solution to the headless multiscale tremolo pickup gap issue. the others are close, but not flawless. i would argue the aristedes in design is flawless but ive never played one so i cant say that with full confidence.


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## A-Branger (Dec 18, 2020)

Chugalug said:


> (I started an injection molding company, different industry and once the molds are made its autopilot from that point forward) For me I find it so hard to see the price point at what it’s at.



there is alot more into what goes to make it a finished guitar than just pop it out of the mold and call it a day. This would be the equivalent of saying why others guitars are expensive when you can trow a piece of wood on a cnc.

there is still heaps of sanding. Routing for controls and hardware, gluing fretboards and frets, fretwork, paint process (this i why the R series gets bit cheaper as it skips this stage), electronics, settup and finish, ect ect.

wood guitars coming out of a cnc do the same process, the thing that a cnc machine for wood and a mould for Aristides does is consistency

also you would be surprised on how cheap wood materials are. Specially if you buy them in bulk



Chugalug said:


> The key things I have heard is if they break you’re SOL,



and why would be breaking them?, if you are concern about breaking this guitar (which would need a really hard hit), then you would be worriying about breakng any other wood guitar. And yes, wood guitars can be fixed (to a degree), but there is always limitations on what can be fixed and how.

your local luthier might dnt know how to fix a material used for an Aristides, but someone will. Heck there is people who fix holes on surfboards which are made out of foam and fiberglass. Point made is that someone out there would b able to fix it

but real point is, stop thinking you are gonna break it. You dont buy a car and think "mmm would I be able to fix it if it crash?".... how many guitars have you broken? and how many people you know have broken their guitars on a regular basis?...... exactly, now stop worriying about it and get yourself a pretty guitar 




Chugalug said:


> The resonance thing to me seems a bit honky too, just because to me they’re like a reverse acoustic guitar with a cover over the back.



you havent seen a guitar withot the cover no?

this is not an acustic, the big cover is not an attempt of acoustic resonance. Its jsut a cover. Same as any other guitar with an electronics (and floyd) cavity cover, difference is that this one is huge. Basically its the whole back of the guitar

why?....... because why not

this makes the back cavity a one-fits-all piece for all differnt configurations of hardtails and floating bridges.

not only that, but the material they use for the guitar is so heavy (yes, guitars are fairly heavy-ish for what they are..... my opinion tho, I really though these would be way lighter given the technology and the size), so a way they would to cut down some weight was to make the guitar "hollow" (not really), but more like half the size fo the body of what they look like, so they need a big cover to cover the massive routing for the back

guitars are almost half the thickness(massive electronics routing), the cover is jsut there to give them their shape

helps to make electronics cavity an universal thing and helps to shave off some weight


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## Adam Of Angels (Dec 18, 2020)

I'll say, having made a big effort to play as many different things as I can over the last 12 years or so, Aristides is in my top 3 favorite builders. They're every bit a god-tier instrument. They also hold value like nothing else, so both subjectively and objectively, they're very much worth the price.

My favorite thing, though, is that you can leave them out in the bushes all winter, bring them in, and they'll be ready to go. In theory, anyway - don't try that.


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## bzhang9 (Dec 19, 2020)

Adam Of Angels said:


> I'll say, having made a big effort to play as many different things as I can over the last 12 years or so, Aristides is in my top 3 favorite builders. They're every bit a god-tier instrument. They also hold value like nothing else, so both subjectively and objectively, they're very much worth the price.
> 
> My favorite thing, though, is that you can leave them out in the bushes all winter, bring them in, and they'll be ready to go. In theory, anyway - don't try that.



God tier? thats a stretch
Value holds ok, on the down trend since they are not this new thing anymore, doesn't hold as well as strandys nor sell as quickly
Truss rod still needs to be adjusted depending on season, maybe better than most wood necks but not that much better. Not this invincible thing people hype them up to be.


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## Jonathan20022 (Dec 19, 2020)

^^^ This, I've actually just found more interest in the brands I used to own and a few others that are made of wood. But my main Aristides aren't going anywhere, my setups never change, and they're always in tune when I pick them up.

The older you get the more you realize that lost time is just that, lost. If I can have a select handful guitars that don't even need to be tuned, much less tweaked through the seasons or if I just don't touch them for awhile, then that value is more than enough for me.

They're impeccably built, and so are plenty of other instruments from various brands. It doesn't take away how good an Aristides is, and they also don't take away how excellent other brands are either. But as Max said, consistency is their thing, you will have a very hard time finding a negative notch on their guitars, or their reputation.

They are class act guys who have pride in what they build, and never leave the customer behind. I'd support Pascal and them on that fact alone.

And the durability/warranty thing isn't even a thought on my mind, hobbyist guitarist and all I definitely don't see myself tossing my guitars at a brick wall. So I have very little fear that I can much more than surface level scratches and maybe a ding here and there at the worst.



bzhang9 said:


> God tier? thats a stretch
> Value holds ok, on the down trend since they are not this new thing anymore, doesn't hold as well as strandys nor sell as quickly
> Truss rod still needs to be adjusted depending on season, maybe better than most wood necks but not that much better. Not this invincible thing people hype them up to be.



Well no offense but everyone seems to define build quality, and how good things are on a variety of spectrums.

If you grade Aristides on their overall objective performance,

Impeccable track record
A1 Customer Support
Instruments made to an incredibly high standard
Repeatable process with people who do the same thing day in and day out, yielding instruments with very little to get wrong on.
Fast turnaround on wait-times + Updates on builds
If you want to be subjective about it, then things like fretwork/neck profile/design shouldn't be held against any specific brand. Considering their fretwork is consistently flawless, then there's not much more you can ask from them, if you prefer ball end frets or some other thing then that's on you.

Other companies I've dealt with have incredible customer support but can still produce duds here and there. AFAIK if a company has both down, and you jive with the instruments, it's not a shock that someone could really love that company and consider them "God Tier". They're one of my favs as well and I really enjoy the 060, so I'll 2nd Adam's position.


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## Adam Of Angels (Dec 19, 2020)

bzhang9 said:


> God tier? thats a stretch
> Value holds ok, on the down trend since they are not this new thing anymore, doesn't hold as well as strandys nor sell as quickly
> Truss rod still needs to be adjusted depending on season, maybe better than most wood necks but not that much better. Not this invincible thing people hype them up to be.



Preferences aside, they're as good, in terms of quality and attention to detail, as the best guitars on the market. 

Strandberg might hold value as well as Aristides. I've owned dozens of both. It's easier to get a great deal on a used Strandberg. Aristides are among the most sought after guitars when it comes to used modern guitars.

And, I've left an Aristides in my living room through summer and then winter, and it didn't move at all. The only thing that will in any noticeable way is the strings.


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## diagrammatiks (Dec 19, 2020)

Jonathan20022 said:


> ^^^ This, I've actually just found more interest in the brands I used to own and a few others that are made of wood. But my main Aristides aren't going anywhere, my setups never change, and they're always in tune when I pick them up.
> 
> The older you get the more you realize that lost time is just that, lost. If I can have a select handful guitars that don't even need to be tuned, much less tweaked through the seasons or if I just don't touch them for awhile, then that value is more than enough for me.
> 
> ...



arguing with bzhang is like arguing with a brick wall.

a brick wall that somehow owns some of the best used used Ibanez's in the entire universe. 

I believe deep in my heart that if any of the 6 I owned were as good as he thinks his are I would never buy anything else as well.


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## narad (Dec 19, 2020)

Adam Of Angels said:


> Preferences aside, they're as good, in terms of quality and attention to detail, as the best guitars on the market.



I agree from the pov of the customer that the quality and fit+finish is going to hang with basically anything out there, but at the same time, building a guitar in the way Aristides does when the R&D out of the way is playing the luthiery game on easy mode. Working with wood, and having all these various pieces reacting to the workshop environment, the stress of tension, the heat of the milling equipment, and the nonuniformity of the surfaces... I just rather not even begin to compare Aristides with other guitars because the process is so different. 

And when people start comparing, because the end result of an Aristides guitars does seem quite impeccable, the fanbase gets pretty rabid. Then the next thing you know people are making claims like them solving multiscale trems or arium being some supermaterial. It's almost up there with acai berries in terms of what customers believe about it.


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## bzhang9 (Dec 19, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> arguing with bzhang is like arguing with a brick wall.
> 
> a brick wall that somehow owns some of the best used used Ibanez's in the entire universe.
> 
> I believe deep in my heart that if any of the 6 I owned were as good as he thinks his are I would never buy anything else as well.



anyone that shares a different opinion from you is a brick wall now thats cool. Instead of making a point just resort to calling people names I see.

I never said they had bad quality, they are just as good as any top tier guitar, but not on a whole different level as people tend to hype them up to be. I owned one and play a few its just the body design is not comfortable, thin and has no contour, but not arched enough like arch tops to make up for it. Consistency maybe, but that may just come from the build process. Nothing else that makes it objectively much better than another well built top tier guitar.


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## diagrammatiks (Dec 19, 2020)

bzhang9 said:


> anyone that shares a different opinion from you is a brick wall now thats cool. Instead of making a point just resort to calling people names I see.
> 
> I never said they had bad quality, they are just as good as any top tier guitar, but not on a whole different level as people tend to hype them up to be. I owned one and play a few its just the body design is not comfortable, thin and has no contour, but not arched enough like arch tops to make up for it. Consistency maybe, but that may just come from the build process. Nothing else that makes it objectively much better than another well built top tier guitar.



buddy. I just want to know where you get your magic Ibanez's from.


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## bzhang9 (Dec 19, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> buddy. I just want to know where you get your magic Ibanez's from.



buddy, why so personal? why get obsessed on an internet forum?

My RG2228 played and sounded better than my 080, thats my experience, do you have a problem with that?


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## Jonathan20022 (Dec 19, 2020)

narad said:


> I agree from the pov of the customer that the quality and fit+finish is going to hang with basically anything out there, but at the same time, building a guitar in the way Aristides does when the R&D out of the way is playing the luthiery game on easy mode. Working with wood, and having all these various pieces reacting to the workshop environment, the stress of tension, the heat of the milling equipment, and the nonuniformity of the surfaces... I just rather not even begin to compare Aristides with other guitars because the process is so different.
> 
> And when people start comparing, because the end result of an Aristides guitars does seem quite impeccable, the fanbase gets pretty rabid. Then the next thing you know people are making claims like them solving multiscale trems or arium being some supermaterial. It's almost up there with acai berries in terms of what customers believe about it.



I think at the end of the day, if you end up discussing anything with a fanboy of any business, you just discard their opinion.

Overall though, I've never taken the process into consideration of the final product and how good it is. But something being easier to build is generally a better thing for consumers, if the producer has less opportunity to mess something up then you achieve consistency. But I agree that comparing builders when the difference in production is that drastic is going to be pretty baseless overall.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 19, 2020)

It's not about easy vs. hard, it's about _predictability_. 

The more predictable and consistent the process the less risk. The less risk of issues the more focus that can be paid to the finer tasks.


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## Flappydoodle (Dec 20, 2020)

A-Branger said:


> You dont buy a car and think "mmm would I be able to fix it if it crash?".... how many guitars have you broken? and how many people you know have broken their guitars on a regular basis?...... exactly, now stop worriying about it and get yourself a pretty guitar



In fairness, this is definitely a consideration for buying a car. A hell of a lot easier to repair a Toyota than a Tesla if something breaks.



Jonathan20022 said:


> ^^^ This, I've actually just found more interest in the brands I used to own and a few others that are made of wood. But my main Aristides aren't going anywhere, my setups never change, and they're always in tune when I pick them up.
> 
> The older you get the more you realize that lost time is just that, lost. If I can have a select handful guitars that don't even need to be tuned, much less tweaked through the seasons or if I just don't touch them for awhile, then that value is more than enough for me.
> 
> ...



Totally agree with you here. The customer service is really good. I had a weird import/customs issue and they helped sort it out, and even contacted me to make sure everything had arrived ok. I bugged them with all sorts of inane questions when my guitar arrived, and they were super helpful. Even sent me step-by-step protocols for setups etc.


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## mastapimp (Dec 21, 2020)

Jonathan20022 said:


> The older you get the more you realize that lost time is just that, lost.


Say this to yourself when you're arguing in the "Kiesel never again" thread when you could be picking up one of your aristides =)


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## narad (Dec 21, 2020)

mastapimp said:


> Say this to yourself when you're arguing in the "Kiesel never again" thread when you could be picking up one of your aristides =)



That's for the greater good. He realizes he could be playing Aristides and yet he argues in the "Kiesel never again" thread. Like a god damn Mother Theresa.


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## jco5055 (Dec 21, 2020)

Adam Of Angels said:


> I'll say, having made a big effort to play as many different things as I can over the last 12 years or so, Aristides is in my top 3 favorite builders. They're every bit a god-tier instrument. They also hold value like nothing else, so both subjectively and objectively, they're very much worth the price.
> 
> My favorite thing, though, is that you can leave them out in the bushes all winter, bring them in, and they'll be ready to go. In theory, anyway - don't try that.



I'll PM you instead if this is considered off-topic, but who are the other two builders?


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## jephjacques (Dec 21, 2020)

they're good and everyone should buy three

except bzhang who should stick to his ibanez prestiges and stop shitting up threads with his bad takes


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## bostjan (Dec 21, 2020)

narad said:


> It's almost up there with acai berries in terms of what customers believe about it.


Hey, my tone has never been better since I started using acai berries!


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## Jonathan20022 (Dec 21, 2020)

mastapimp said:


> Say this to yourself when you're arguing in the "Kiesel never again" thread when you could be picking up one of your aristides =)



You're not wrong


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## Stuck_in_a_dream (Dec 21, 2020)

Millul said:


> I am far from an expert on the subject, but, are we sure using resins is more environment-frinedly than using wood? Aren't those petrochemical products?
> 
> Actually trying to run a quick research on this as I post during my lunch break





possumkiller said:


> Aren't these some kind of plastic though? Are they biodegradable? If a container full of inevitable cheap Chinese import Aristides falls into the ocean, are they going to decompose or strangle the sealife to death with their bear hands?



Well, not to make it into a debate or anything, just saying. I am no expert either, but plastics are still going to be utilized for a while until we find an alternative. For example, we will utilize quite a bit f plastics into electric vehicles and we're not going to stop making them because we cannot replace it with bio-degradable materials. Still it's a win as we will be burning less gas. In such case, as well as in guitars, the recycling industry should take care of the discarded units. Re impact of plastics over sea life, do it like Tesla, make guitars where u sell them!

On a more obvious note, how often do u discard a > $2,000 guitar vs a grocery plastic bag? So, I think Arium (or whatever non-wood based material) should be used to make guitars. The less wood, the better. Actually, maybe furniture manufactures should stop using wood first as it's my understanding they (along w/ housing construction) are the ones who use quite a bit of lumber.


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## 4x3 (Dec 22, 2020)

narad said:


> This has become my favorite of the chameleons.




WTH model is that?! The one major thing keeping me from picking one up is I'm particular about the body shape and that is one change away from being what I want (singlecut)

I only read the first page, but the reason I'm interested in Aristides is stability. Homes here basically lack insulation and central heat and air, so I notice how temperature expands and shrinks the wood. It's caused checking in my '85 LP that was pristine and I am not happy about it. I can feel a difference at the seam between the fretboard and neck, binding on the body, frets, etc


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## bostjan (Dec 22, 2020)

4x3 said:


> WTH model is that?! The one major thing keeping me from picking one up is I'm particular about the body shape and that is one change away from being what I want (singlecut)
> 
> I only read the first page, but the reason I'm interested in Aristides is stability. Homes here basically lack insulation and central heat and air, so I notice how temperature expands and shrinks the wood. It's caused checking in my '85 LP that was pristine and I am not happy about it. I can feel a difference at the seam between the fretboard and neck, binding on the body, frets, etc



Every material expands and contracts with temperature changes, though, even really really expensive materials. It's just physics.


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## P-Ride (Dec 22, 2020)

Material costs? Try R&D.

I'm bemused when people try to rationalise - say - Apple Airpods or a Tesla by their physical material costs.

Go buy some silicon, copper, and steel online and make your own Tesla.

Let me know how you get on!

Likewise... you fancy trying to make an Aristides?

Supply/demand economics, unit production economics, R&D, IP, and patenting are kinda important topics.


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## diagrammatiks (Dec 22, 2020)

4x3 said:


> WTH model is that?! The one major thing keeping me from picking one up is I'm particular about the body shape and that is one change away from being what I want (singlecut)
> 
> I only read the first page, but the reason I'm interested in Aristides is stability. Homes here basically lack insulation and central heat and air, so I notice how temperature expands and shrinks the wood. It's caused checking in my '85 LP that was pristine and I am not happy about it. I can feel a difference at the seam between the fretboard and neck, binding on the body, frets, etc



oh that reminds me 
@brandonwall 

single cut tele style headless? Be honest. I have money. Is in the works?


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## 4x3 (Dec 22, 2020)

bostjan said:


> Every material expands and contracts with temperature changes, though, even really really expensive materials. It's just physics.



I'm no stranger to physics and not so naive to think their proprietary material won't shrink or expand. However, their claim, and I could be conflating, is it has less variance than wood.

If that variance is below the threshold needed to check the finish, impact tension on the neck, or the other factors I mentioned with my LP, I will buy the next model that's as close to a Fast Falcon 7 or a Padalka Pluto (singlecut) 7.


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## bostjan (Dec 22, 2020)

4x3 said:


> I'm no stranger to physics and not so naive to think their proprietary material won't shrink or expand. However, their claim, and I could be conflating, is it has less variance than wood.
> 
> If that variance is below the threshold needed to check the finish, impact tension on the neck, or the other factors I mentioned with my LP, I will buy the next model that's as close to a Fast Falcon 7 or a Padalka Pluto (singlecut) 7.



Wood is hygroscopic, which tends to be more of a concern than thermal expansion. If it's dried, handled, and finished properly, it shouldn't be as much of a concern. Plastics can be hygroscopic as well, but tend to be much less so than wood.

Regardless, an Aristides would surely be a good investment, as it'll certainly help all of those problems.


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## Millul (Dec 22, 2020)

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> Well, not to make it into a debate or anything, just saying. I am no expert either, but plastics are still going to be utilized for a while until we find an alternative. For example, we will utilize quite a bit f plastics into electric vehicles and we're not going to stop making them because we cannot replace it with bio-degradable materials. Still it's a win as we will be burning less gas. In such case, as well as in guitars, the recycling industry should take care of the discarded units. Re impact of plastics over sea life, do it like Tesla, make guitars where u sell them!
> 
> On a more obvious note, how often do u discard a > $2,000 guitar vs a grocery plastic bag? So, I think Arium (or whatever non-wood based material) should be used to make guitars. The less wood, the better. Actually, maybe furniture manufactures should stop using wood first as it's my understanding they (along w/ housing construction) are the ones who use quite a bit of lumber.



Mmmhh I think we're getting at it from 2 different points.
I'm not arguing against plastics per se. And no one is going to build a car out of wood in 2021.
What I was wondering is this: are we sure the overall environmental impact of the process of building a cast resins guitar is lower than that needed to build a traditional, wooden guitar?
I am also aware, it's a pretty though question to answer.


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## 4x3 (Dec 22, 2020)

bostjan said:


> Wood is hygroscopic, which tends to be more of a concern than thermal expansion. If it's dried, handled, and finished properly, it shouldn't be as much of a concern. Plastics can be hygroscopic as well, but tend to be much less so than wood.
> 
> Regardless, an Aristides would surely be a good investment, as it'll certainly help all of those problems.



The problem I've experienced over the years is newer guitars that aren't higher-end, tend to not be dried sufficiently and experience issues a couple to a few years later; in particular the fretboard shrinking, causing the frets to protrude and inlays to pop up. All of which may be corrected, but it's nice not to have to think about it. Part of my problem is also relocating from a landlocked area to about 2mi/3.5km away from the beach; minor detail lol


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## Stuck_in_a_dream (Dec 23, 2020)

Millul said:


> Mmmhh I think we're getting at it from 2 different points.
> I'm not arguing against plastics per se. And no one is going to build a car out of wood in 2021.
> What I was wondering is this: are we sure the overall environmental impact of the process of building a cast resins guitar is lower than that needed to build a traditional, wooden guitar?
> I am also aware, it's a pretty though question to answer.



Totally agree!


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## Lorcan Ward (Dec 23, 2020)

Chugalug said:


> I think the world has made it hard for some to see with all the media hype.



This is becoming a big problem. I've cattle eating grass surrounded by trees and hedgerow but they are targeted by the media for belching out gases. On the other hand I've fields of barley and wheat praised for being good for the environment when I have a page long list of the pesticides, fungicides and herbicides that were showered all year round on it that would put you off ever eating bread again. 



Mathemagician said:


> How sustainable a species is depends on the volume being harvested and what regulations exist to protect it.
> 
> Meanwhile a perfectly black FB can easily be reached with richlite without the cutting down of a tree, the waste, or the environmental impact of transportation.
> 
> There’s room for booth.



I 100% agree. In my opinion the ideal route going forward is richlite fretboards to get that jet black ebony or clear white maple look, paired with sustainable woods for the body & neck and despite my love for tops I would much rather see the industry move towards veneers. 



Millul said:


> Mmmhh I think we're getting at it from 2 different points.
> I'm not arguing against plastics per se. And no one is going to build a car out of wood in 2021.
> What I was wondering is this: are we sure the overall environmental impact of the process of building a cast resins guitar is lower than that needed to build a traditional, wooden guitar?
> I am also aware, it's a pretty though question to answer.



Thats a difficult question to answer. It depends how & where the wood was harvested, how it was transported and then how the guitars are made and how the electricity is supplied to do so. Wood has a positive effect as a raw material though before its harvested though where plastic doesn't. So where the plastic product might end up having less impact during construction it can still end up being worse compared to what the wood did before it was cut. 

These are hi-end guitars though, nobody is throwing an Aristides into a landfill like a plastic chair so its not something to really take into account. Now if Ibanez or Schecter jumped on board and started making fully plastic guitars for cheap prices that could be a problem but again minimal compared to countless other industries and products made of plastic. Not that both of those brands don't cover their guitars already in plastic binding.


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## Zhysick (Dec 23, 2020)

Lorcan Ward said:


> This is becoming a big problem. I've cattle eating grass surrounded by trees and hedgerow but they are targeted by the media for belching out gases. On the other hand I've fields of barley and wheat praised for being good for the environment when I have a page long list of the pesticides, fungicides and herbicides that were showered all year round on it that would put you off ever eating bread again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ibanez and/or Cort tried (and I say and/or because I think the Ibanez model was built by Cort) with the Ibanez Ergodyne and the Cort... Curbow was it? Some kind of plastic resine... luthite?

Not really sucessful: heavy, very heavy. Sounded great but nothing else.

I am happy that didn't work out because for sure wood is more environment friendly than those plastics (the process for making them) but, well, whatever... That Cort bass was really fucking cool.


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## A-Branger (Dec 23, 2020)

Zhysick said:


> Not really sucessful: heavy, very heavy. Sounded great but nothing else.



I have one of those Ibanez basses EDA905. Its very light, not heavy at all. The lightest bass I ever had..... the shape of it also helped tho


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## Zhysick (Dec 24, 2020)

A-Branger said:


> I have one of those Ibanez basses EDA905. Its very light, not heavy at all. The lightest bass I ever had..... the shape of it also helped tho



That's interesting because the Ergodyne I played was very heavy (luthite body, later they made them again with Agathis body I think) and the Cort bass I played was very heavy also


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Dec 24, 2020)

If


diagrammatiks said:


> oh that reminds me
> @brandonwall
> 
> single cut tele style headless? Be honest. I have money. Is in the works?



if anything by happens it will be an offset!


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## Wolfhorsky (Dec 24, 2020)

Luthite was just marketing bs with posh name of plexi/methacrylate.


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