# Axe FX units live... so they kinda suck?



## Erazoender (Feb 3, 2013)

Now I know this is completely to do with venues and their sound setups, so I refrained from posting this until I've seen bands live in several venues within the city that use Axe FXs as well as repositioning myself throughout the respective concerts.

Anyways my most recent experience was with Devin Townsend opening up for Gojira at Vancouver's Vogue Theater, and unfortunately, I can't say I'm impressed with the Axe FX. Devy is a pretty masterful user of the unit at least in my eyes and has a great ear for sound, but during the show I could hardly hear the guitars. If I didn't know the songs, I wouldn't be able to distinguish what's going on. During solo guitar lines such as the beginning of Planet of the Apes, the guitars sounded massive and extremely mean, but as soon as the rest of the band came into the mix, the guitars were completely drowned down. Gojira came on afterwards using EVH 5150s, and the sound was absolutely impeccable. You could hear everything they were playing, down to the slightest accentuation and little slip-ups of their fingers. 

What's your guys's opinion on the unit live? Despite all of the praise from so many bands, I feel that FRFR rigs don't seem to quite cut it (literally) live. They are EXTREMELY directional dependent and if you're not in a sweet spot, I find that the sound is downright terrible. Would you think there's just consistently crappy setups within Vancouver's venues compared to another city's venue?


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## wakjob (Feb 3, 2013)

People will chime in a defend those units until their fingers bleed all over their keyboards.

There is a myriad of reasons why the sound wasn't up to your standards.

AND GO....


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## asher (Feb 3, 2013)

Soundguy at fault?

I've seen Meshuggah and Scale the Summit live, both using Axe-FXs. Meshuggah sounded good, but because I was so far up (rail) the PAs weren't projecting that well to me and I basically couldn't hear Fredrik who was on the other side of the stage. Sounded good though.

Saw StS in some tiny club/restaurant and all the openers had absolutely godawful sound. StS comes out with their Axe setups _and their own sound guy_ and proceed to have the best live sound I HAVE EVER HEARD.


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## asher (Feb 3, 2013)

wakjob said:


> People will chime in a defend those units until their fingers bleed all over their keyboards.
> 
> There is a myriad of reasons why the sound wasn't up to your standards.
> 
> AND GO....



 while I was typing

I'm sure there are tons of ways to set it up to sound like complete ass too.


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## Manhell (Feb 3, 2013)

wakjob said:


> People will chime in a defend those units until their fingers bleed all over their keyboards.
> 
> There is a myriad of reasons why the sound wasn't up to your standards.
> 
> AND GO....




AHAHAHAH super cool response I must say 

but now seriously...
I use the Axe Fx live direct to the FOH and myself and everybody including soundguys, fellow guitar players and audience came to me and really congrat me on my sound, it is clean, easy to plug and easy for the soundguys.

Now, does it sound like a good 'ol tube amp? almost, it's really close but I start using a Mesa Road King now and we tell the difference.

It really depends on what you want, for ex. I saw Devin Townsend live twice and both times He got some really nice tone going on, the thing I personally believe (and happened to me until I changed) is that the use of EMG's with the Axe Fx really give it a digital sound.

3 days later I saw Fear Factory also with an Axe FX and it sounded really digital but it's what Dino wants so no complains there.

You have a lot of different variants that make the sound and depending on them it can sound really good or really bad so sometime is a matter of taste so we cannot argue there other times is just really bad sound.

I like Axe Fx and regular tube amps, don't get me wrong I will not part without my Tubes but I find the Axe Fx really good for a lot of stuff specially on extended range instruments when sometimes the tubes cannot handle it, I also saw Meshuggah again with 3 Axe Fx and it sounded HUGE, again depens on the situation.

Still A very good piece of equipment.

Hope it helps


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## carvincrazy (Feb 3, 2013)

There are multiple reasons Devy didn't sound up to par. (just so you know, I'm not an axe fx fan boy that's here to attack you. I've never played on myself, and I'm not claiming to be some sort of sound master hot shit that's better than everyone. Just offering my limited but hopefully helpful opinion.) For one, I've noticed that live metal shows are notorious for having drown out guitars and over powering drums/vocals. A little while ago I saw the slaughter survivors tour with Structures, Volumes, Conducting from the grave, etc... yata, yata, yata. The point is, most of those bands use the axe fx, however some of them didn't. But I still noticed that they all had a fairly consistent and even mix (I actually heard the guitars and nothing was over powering). I also recently saw Lamb of God with In Flames, Hellyeah, and Sylosis. Now I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure none of those bands (with maybe the exception of Sylosis) use the axe fx, and honestly, the whole show was all drums and vox. if I didn't know the songs before hand, i'd have no idea what they were playing (which really pissed me off for a 50 dollar ticket). I also saw August Burns Red this Christmas (again, not positive but pretty sure they don't use the axe fx, or at least I've never seen it in their rigs) and it was the same exact deal.

My point is, you can't account for the entire sound of the show on one piece of equipment. You need to take into consideration the HUGE amount of responsibility on the sound man/crew. If you listen to metal bands get their mixes together before a live set, even then the guitars generally seems way quieter than the drums and vox.

Bottom line; I wouldn't necessarily count the axe fx out so quickly.


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## Sixthsant (Feb 3, 2013)

I saw Trivium live in December and I had no idea they were using Axe Fx's because it sounded as good if not better than when I saw them when they used amps, I guess its got to do with the sound guy and the venue and how they set it all up


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## larry (Feb 3, 2013)

i guess it would depend on who's running FOH? for example, when i saw STS at ruth eckerd hall, their sound sucked. this was during the progressive nation tour opening for dream theater; chris and them were still using tube heads & cabs (chris: mesa dual rec / orange 4x12; travis mesa dual rec / recto 4x12 iirc). i talked to chris about it after their set, and he said it's because they're the opener. the venue itself, is actually a performance arts theater. the whole place is built to enhance acoustic quality. when dream theater hit the stage they sounded massive.

a few years later, i went to see scale the summit again at a small bar in orlando that had a much simpler FOH setup compared to REH. the opening band sounded like shit and they were using all tube gear. STS were set up direct to FOH with a pair of axe fx ultras and they sounded fantastic.

last year i went and saw periphery at the state theater in st pete, which had an ok FOH setup. same deal here: openers sounded like shit with their tube gear and misha's boys sounded great. 

i wouldn't be turned off to using the axe live just yet. i have had the chance to use mine at practice and it slays, but i set it up to run direct to FOH and through poweramp/cab. with the two signals blended --it's unbeatable. you do need to RTFM and compensate for signal phase in this case though. my direct output and amp/cab output are eq'd appropriately. this setup to me sounds huge. when i crank the power amp, the tone is pretty damn convincing. i'd imagine the axe fx II would be that much better over the ultra in this type of setup.

if you get the chance to try an axe, invest some quality time with it and i think you'll be happy. 


edit:
god damn!!  by everybody..


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## Erazoender (Feb 3, 2013)

I'm not trashing Axe FX's; believe me, I want to believe that a 10lb unit could carry your tones across the world without having to haul around cabs and shit. That would be a godsend. 

And I know that it's often at fault of the soundguy, but that's why I wanted to experience bands using the units at other venues with different sound guys at multiple instances. The end result was essentially the same, regardless of the venue and band. My dad was a pretty experienced audio producer/tech/whatever you want to label, and he came with me to Dream Theater. Trivium opened up and was using Axe FXs, and throughout the whole night he just kept babbering on about how shitty their sound was. I might be paraphrasing, but I believe it went along the lines of "How the fuck can their sound guy fuck up four instruments and vocals, literally the easiest thing you can possibly mix. He should be fired on the spot". Dream Theater then preceded to have an absolutely beautiful sound live, but granted, I've seen their live setup and it kind of makes me dizzy so comparing any band to Dream Theater I feel is an EXTREMELY unfair thing to do.

All I'm saying is that pretty consistently, it's just been an overall crappy sound live everywhere I went. How about the Kemper, did people play around with that live yet?


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## 3074326 (Feb 3, 2013)

Erazoender said:


> All I'm saying is that pretty consistently, it's just been an overall crappy sound live everywhere I went.



My experiences have been the opposite.


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## Erazoender (Feb 3, 2013)

Then again, it might just be a thing with Vancouver's venues sucking for this kind of setup!

EDIT: I suppose sarcasm might be difficult to interpret online; I'm not trying to be sarcastic just to avoid any potential misunderstanding


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## technomancer (Feb 3, 2013)

To be honest I've heard bands using the Axe that sounded great and bands that sounded terrible, just like amps. Actually I've seen AAL three times at different venues and on one of those occasions they didn't sound all that great, at one they had one of the best tones I've ever heard, and the third time it was between the first and second 

Depends entirely on the venue and sound guy on that particular night, just like any other piece of gear


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## Transmissions (Feb 3, 2013)

I always did find it funny that a local opener for the faceless's axe fx shit the bed while the other guitarist's kemper did fine.


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## technomancer (Feb 3, 2013)

Transmissions said:


> I always did find it funny that a local opener for the faceless's axe fx shit the bed while the other guitarist's kemper did fine.



Let's not turn this into yet another pointless Axe vs Kemper thread


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## noUser01 (Feb 3, 2013)

My buddies went and said it sounded fantastic. I didn't go myself so I can't tell you anything first hand.

I don't know, I've heard plenty of scenarios on both sides, people saying the band they saw with AxeFX's sounded terrible, and people saying they sounded great. I personally think there's too many variables to say it's one thing. There's user error/incompetence, venue issues, bad sound guys, gear issues, people standing in the wrong place, etc. It could be any number of things or any combination of them.


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## WhiteWalls (Feb 3, 2013)

First of all, if the venue is big enough (I assume that for a Devin Townsend/Gojira concert, it is), 99% of the guitars you hear come from the front of house even if the band is using miced tube amps. They are always kept rather low because otherwise there's no way to make an acceptable on stage mix. Also FRFR/PA speakers are way less directional than guitar cabinets.

If the guitars can't be heard, it probably just means that the sound guy kept them too quiet, which is understandable considering the opening band doesn't have their own sound guy most of the time.


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## devolutionary (Feb 3, 2013)

I saw Meshuggah at a dive venue here. It had low ceiling, concrete, basic cloth on the walls, and the PA was angled all around the place. It sounded perfect. Every instrument could be heard wonderfully. Venue counts for a FUCK of a lot. Where you stand as well counts for a fuck of a lot. There are advantages to standing right next to the sound guy.


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## Rook (Feb 3, 2013)

technomancer said:


> To be honest I've heard bands using the Axe that sounded great and bands that sounded terrible, just like amps. Actually I've seen AAL three times at different venues and on one of those occasions they didn't sound all that great, at one they had one of the best tones I've ever heard, and the third time it was between the first and second
> 
> Depends entirely on the venue and sound guy on that particular night, just like any other piece of gear



This is exactly what I was gunna say, it's also down to the user. My home, playing-to-myself tone with my Roadtser was this big, wide, booming gain monster that sounded absolutely great and I became convinced Mesa were shitty live amps cos I could never cut.

Retarded.

Mesa are some of the most distinctive and distinguished amps for live use, I was just retarded at dialling it in. What I liked worked great as a recording tone but I had to learn that cutting live required almost a polar opposite to what I was doing haha. It's easy to assume that most people it's Axe FX's use them to get great recording tones, it's easy to assume a lot of people bring that to a venue, hear it through an FRFR rig or their IEM's and hear this wonderful, studio quality tone but forget they're still in a live venue, usually small, and the laws of cutting through a mix in an actual room still apply.

When I first got the Axe FX I had preset after preset of these unrealistic super boosted, scoopy (not Metallica scoopy, 500Hz recording scoopy), dry sounds that as I say sounded unbelievable turned up loud but only to me cos I was the only one with a loud enough monitor 

Axe FX can sound amazing live, it can sound shitty, amps can sound amazing live and they can sound shitty. It is, as ever, down to the room, the user and the sound guy.

If it didn't work live I wouldn't use it, I have no loyalty to a little black box


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## Cancer (Feb 3, 2013)

Manhell said:


> 3 days later I saw Fear Factory also with an Axe FX and it sounded really digital but it's what Dino wants so no complains there.



Since when does Dino use the Axefx? Far as I know he's a POD HD guy.

At this point I've seen a bunch of bands live with the Axefx, and the only low point would have been Cynic's live tone. After the Burial sounded AMAZING everytime I've seen them, and Periphery sounds good too (better then their amp days IMO).

I think it comes down to your definition of "good live tone". If you need that "amps rumbling the stage" feel then modellers going direct to house are not going to do it for you. At this point most of the Axe players I've seen are going direct (as opposed to ONLY miking a cab). I'm still waiting for the person that bring an unmiked cab (for the 'rumble') but send a DI to the house. Seems like that would be the best way to get both, but now you're lugging an extra cabinet around.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 3, 2013)

Manhell said:


> 3 days later I saw Fear Factory also with an Axe FX and it sounded really digital but it's what Dino wants so no complains there.



Fear Factory has been known for having that really digital and sterile tone. It fits the music.

With that said, he recently became a tube amp guy again.


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## Manhell (Feb 3, 2013)

Cancer said:


> Since when does Dino use the Axefx? Far as I know he's a POD HD guy.
> 
> Yhea I know he had the POD HD but in this particular show I spoted an Axe Fx II in the rack.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 3, 2013)

Manhell said:


> Cancer said:
> 
> 
> > Since when does Dino use the Axefx? Far as I know he's a POD HD guy.
> ...


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## nscarfo83 (Feb 3, 2013)

I used one live for awhile paired with a Carvin ts100 and it was pretty decent. I did play a few gigs with it going direct into the main board and it sounded the best that way. But I am back to using a tube head now and I find that's the only sound I like for playing live.


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## Krucifixtion (Feb 3, 2013)

Live tone is also really dependent on the venue and pa and sound guys. I've seen bands with great amps sound like absolute shit live, because of crappy venue and sound guys. When I saw periphery live their tone was flawless. When I saw Dev live the first song or two sounded ok and then it was way better after. That's def a mix issue. Obviously they had their sound dialed well, but FOH took a while to get a good mix going in the venue. I'd say it more comes down to the venue and pa and sound engineer. As long as you have a decent tone dialed with an axe fx it should sound pretty good live assuming that you tweaked it for a live setting.


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## noUser01 (Feb 4, 2013)

Let me just chime in here reminding people that while a ton of AxeFX fanboys may come in here to try and back up the unit they bought and love to death, doesn't mean that every time someone says something good about it that it's not credible. I'm sick of people brushing off any positive opinions of the unit as "fanboy" words and nothing more.


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## baptizedinblood (Feb 4, 2013)

Bad sound guy.

/endthread


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## Devyn Eclipse Nav (Feb 4, 2013)

Basically it boils down to this - did the sound guy give a fuck? It doesn't matter what gear you're using, a bad sound guy can make it sound like shit without even batting an eyelash. If they're not mixing everything properly, it's gonna sound horrible. That's why I like the idea of bands having their own sound guy - he knows exactly what's going on with the band, night after night, unlike the guy the venue has running sound, who may or may not even like the band playing (and though it shouldn't happen, it does tend to happen where if a sound guy doesn't like the music, he won't do a good job)

So yeah. There ya go.


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## groverj3 (Feb 4, 2013)

~90% of the time opening bands do not get the same sort of attention when it comes to equipment setup and sound checks that the main band does. Most of the time they don't even get their own sound people.

That has a lot more to do with live sound than what amp anyone's using.


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## budda (Feb 4, 2013)

Find me an opener that has ever sounded as good as the headliner.


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## Erazoender (Feb 4, 2013)

Yes but Devin Townsend.


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## redstone (Feb 4, 2013)

It seems Devin uses two very different kind of high gain patches, depending on the songs (maybe more ?). Imo the first one is too singular (addicted), not something easy to mix ; while the other sounds like a real cab (even darker), so it's nice on stage but not as bright as a pair of well mic'd 5150s. I don't think many sound guys can handle both at the same time.


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## guitarfishbay (Feb 5, 2013)

I've said it on other forums -

An Axe doesn't eliminate all variables, it just fixes some. You still have to deal with a sound guy and you still might need to use their PA. It won't guarantee you a good sound everywhere but it will guarantee a consistent signal from your end. What happens next is still in the hands of the sound guy and PA. Remember all other instruments need accounting for in a mix and if they vary from location to location (e.g. acoustic drums) then the whole mix needs treating differently every time anyway.

I'm not anti Axe, just being realistic. They should make a sound guy's job easier, but being a sound guy is still a skilled job especially with metal where the guitars want to eat the whole mix and drummers want to deafen everyone, and sadly not every sound guy gets it right every time, not even the pros. I remember seeing Necrophagist headline a few years ago and the kick drum was so loud I couldn't hear the guitars properly. I was gutted, I'd wanted to see them for ages. At the same venue Decapitated's sound was crushingly tight and very well balanced. (Neither were Axe's at the time, just examples for the sake of variables).

So I vote bad sound day, even as a valve amp fan.


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## Lax (Feb 5, 2013)

I am going to walk on eggs since I don't want either to irritate any fan of anything 

I agree to the bad sound day theory because the axe fx2 can deliver !

I'm not really aknowledged about live use, I just have one 2012 experience :
Milano : Periphery + Dream theater

Obviously, Petrucci's sound was huge and perfect (but his usage of the axe is not complete).

I hated Periphery's sound, BUT, that was a medium venue and many reasons can occur !
The main reason I think it was just a bad day for them is because they spent the venue crouched tweaking their racks !


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## drmosh (Feb 5, 2013)

Lots of things have been said already, but I must question why the *volume *of the guitars in the particular mix should be down to the particular guitar modeller/amp/whatever used over the FOH mix? I don't see how directionality of the particular monitoring solution or amps used on stage has any bearing to what the crowd hears, unless you're right at the front facing the loud as fuck cab of the guitar player.
And to add to that guitar cabs are far more directional than most speakers


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## budda (Feb 5, 2013)

Erazoender said:


> Yes but Devin Townsend.



It's irrelevant. No one will have as good sound as the headliner, regardless how big the opener is.


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## Curt (Feb 5, 2013)

The only thing I can add, is that for venues in my area... It isn't wise to use the Axe, because IME, running direct to FoH has always sounded awful here. Shitty PA, below average sound guy, and even possibly an inability to dial in a good live patch on the axe fx, has lead me to stick to my amps for live use. But I play tiny venues, so, YMMV.
At least with my amp, i'm not fully relying on the house PA to get my tone out there.

I suppose the axe-fx, power amp/cab set-up could help a little in small venues.


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## Larrikin666 (Feb 5, 2013)

Transmissions said:


> I always did find it funny that a local opener for the faceless's axe fx shit the bed while the other guitarist's kemper did fine.



Haha. That was me. I don't want to relive that night.


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## Andromalia (Feb 5, 2013)

Venue is so important. I've seen Meshuggah in an open air festival and sound was ok. Nothing like I expected, more on the thin side. Saw DTP at the same festival and it was awesome. Other bands I've seen with an axe were using a poweramp. (Broderick at the time)


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## JLP2005 (Feb 5, 2013)

budda said:


> Find me an opener that has ever sounded as good as the headliner.



Believe it or not, I saw Robert Randolph + The Family Band open for Clapton.

Blew him out of the fucking water. They were so good by comparison that I could have left after their set and got twice my money's worth.

And Clapton did not impress.


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## budda (Feb 5, 2013)

You said the band was good, not that the sound was better. And if the opening act gives a better performance, you're probably going to end up perceiving a better sound because the rest of the experience was that enjoyable. I'm at work, so I'm not about to look up scientific data to back up that idea, but let it soak.

I've watched opening bands and been hella impressed with their sound and performance - but the headliner always has the best *sound*. And the second you're not in the range of the FOH (first few rows), then you won't know unless you move around.


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## Larrikin666 (Feb 5, 2013)

I think the most important factor here is Gojira. Their sound is always awesome. Of all the times I've had the pleasure of experiencing their shows, I've never left without being blown away by the clarity of everything. They sounded that great with 5150 IIs....and they sound identical with 5150 IIIs. They sounded just as good when they toured with Metallica as they do when they're headlining.


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## ArrowHead (Feb 5, 2013)

It can vary greatly with the sound man and sound system. Saw Cynic open for BTBAM alongside Devin Townsend in Boston. Devin's tone was non-existant, all I heard was bass, drums, a little vocals, and maybe a tiny bit of guitar. Cynic, on the other hand, sounded like someone was pumping the studio album through the PA. Crystal clear, and I could hear every note of every guitar.

Saw Cynic the following year at a smaller venue. Sounded like ass. Why? Because I was right up against the stage, drooling on Tymon's shoes. No stage volume = I couldn't hear ANY guitars. Walk back 20 feet, and suddenly it sounded good again.

So stage volume also has something to do with it.

Regarding Devin Townsend - with the complexity of his show, all the samples used, and all to different changes, I always assumed they used their own sound man and sub-mixer onstage which was then fed to the F.O.H. soundguy. I'm assuming here, I have no proof, but it's what you tend to see with the more complex stage setups.

There's one more answer that people are missing - 

Often times you'll see bands provide their own sound, whether onstage with a sub-mix or at the F.O.H. itself. Problem is, after nightly shows for weeks on end, you might be forced to listen to a F.O.H. mix that is utterly destroyed by the soundman's cumulative hearing damage. Same reason the volume at shows often creeps louder and louder as the night progresses. I saw Accept live, and that poor deaf SOB tried to blow all out ears out. It was painful, actually.


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## sakeido (Feb 5, 2013)

Larrikin666 said:


> I think the most important factor here is Gojira. Their sound is always awesome. Of all the times I've had the pleasure of experiencing their shows, I've never left without being blown away by the clarity of everything. They sounded that great with 5150 IIs....and they sound identical with 5150 IIIs. They sounded just as good when they toured with Metallica as they do when they're headlining.



gojira runs their 5150 IIIs direct as well, using a Torpedo. guitar power amp -> torpedo. split to DI signal w/impulse applied to FOH and then through to the cab for monitoring & reactive load so the direct sound is still very organic. they also tour with their own sound guy who has been with them, iirc, since the very beginning of gojira as a band. 

when I saw Devin the guitars sounded good and it was actually the drums I couldn't hear. 

doesn't matter what gear you use, a sound guy can always find a way to make it sound bad. but running a direct setup of some kind makes their job a LOT easier. micing up a cab is a real roll of the dice, even if the sound guy knows your setup


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## Larrikin666 (Feb 5, 2013)

sakeido said:


> gojira runs their 5150 IIIs direct as well, using a Torpedo. guitar power amp -> torpedo. split to DI signal w/impulse applied to FOH and then through to the cab for monitoring & reactive load so the direct sound is still very organic. they also tour with their own sound guy who has been with them, iirc, since the very beginning of gojira as a band.
> 
> when I saw Devin the guitars sounded good and it was actually the drums I couldn't hear.
> 
> doesn't matter what gear you use, a sound guy can always find a way to make it sound bad. but running a direct setup of some kind makes their job a LOT easier. micing up a cab is a real roll of the dice, even if the sound guy knows your setup




That's really awesome. I've never talked to them about their signal path before. I always assumed it was a standard setup. I usually gush over Joe's guitars when I talk to him. Thanks for the info.


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## T-e-r-r-y (Feb 5, 2013)

budda said:


> It's irrelevant. No one will have as good sound as the headliner, regardless how big the opener is.



I saw Chimpspanner supporting Cynic here, and their live sound was massively superior to Cynic's.


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## GuitaristOfHell (Feb 5, 2013)

Feel free to disagree with me, but in my opinion you just can't replace tubes. Axe-FX sound great at home, I don't know if they were intended for being live.


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## leechmasterargentina (Feb 5, 2013)

Manhell said:


> AHAHAHAH super cool response I must say
> 
> but now seriously...
> I use the Axe Fx live direct to the FOH and myself and everybody including soundguys, fellow guitar players and audience came to me and really congrat me on my sound, it is clean, easy to plug and easy for the soundguys.
> ...



Am I missing something here?... As far as I knew Meshuggah and Fear Factory used PODs. In fact, Dino Cazares is (was?) one of the most known POD users...don't tell me everyone has swapped their PODs to Axe FX...


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## baptizedinblood (Feb 5, 2013)

leechmasterargentina said:


> Am I missing something here?... As far as I knew Meshuggah and Fear Factory used PODs. In fact, Dino Cazares is (was?) one of the most known POD users...don't tell me everyone has swapped their PODs to Axe FX...



I saw Meshuggah back in May; they had 3 Axe-FXs. I think Dino is using Randall amps now as well.


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## leechmasterargentina (Feb 5, 2013)

baptizedinblood said:


> I saw Meshuggah back in May; they had 3 Axe-FXs. I think Dino is using Randall amps now as well.



For what I've read in wikipedia (I know...I should trust it) he uses a POD HD Pro direct to PA and has that randall with cab just for monitoring purposes...

A few years ago Meshuggah used PODs too...

Now that I have a POD, my idols begin to fall...


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## sakeido (Feb 5, 2013)

GuitaristOfHell said:


> Feel free to disagree with me, but in my opinion you just can't replace tubes. Axe-FX sound great at home, I don't know if they were intended for being live.



I agree, kind of. 

Axe has the preamp stuff figured out. Run an Axe into a tube power amp and they sound great just so long as you don't use that characterless, boring FAS modern amp. 

It is the power amp emulation they don't have yet. Kemper is much better there. But both still fall behind just a good old fashioned tube power amp section.

That is why the way Gojira runs their amps is the best of both worlds. Tube preamp, tube poweramp, but then the absolute consistency of cab impulses to cap things off


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## SpaseMoonkey (Feb 5, 2013)

budda said:


> It's irrelevant. No one will have as good sound as the headliner, regardless how big the opener is.



I have seen Lamb of God open, middle, and close. They sounded the same every time I've seen them. Personally when they opened for Metallica, I think LoG sounded better.


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## spawnofthesith (Feb 5, 2013)

budda said:


> Find me an opener that has ever sounded as good as the headliner.



I've been to more concerts than I can think of where openers have better sound than the headliner. Don't know what world your living on


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## Andromalia (Feb 5, 2013)

Pro venues and bands always have an unwritten agreement: the headliner will be the loudest. I have on occasion seen bands having better tone than the headliner (early no-cavalera Sepultura followed by Slayer) but the headliner was definitely louder every single time. Which result in a perception of better tone. (It can be too much though, Machinehead at Wacken 2009 was over the limit imho)

And even high profile tours can have hiccups. I definitely remember how the kick drum of Judas Priest had all the crowd pushed back 1meter each time it hit for the first two songs in their Testament+Megadeth+Priest tour in 2009. XD


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## redstone (Feb 5, 2013)

GuitaristOfHell said:


> Feel free to disagree with me, but in my opinion you just can't replace tubes. Axe-FX sound great at home, I don't know if they were intended for being live.



My point of view is quite the opposite, due to the IRs.. amp simulators are perfect on stage, not in studio.


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## CTDguitarist (Feb 5, 2013)

I agree with u but I have a feeling its the Guys in the sound boards fault to be honest. they prob are just so use to micd cabs and dont really kno where tge axe fx sweet spot is. when I saw periphery last year textures opened. they were playing 6505s sounded amazing then periphery came out just sounded harsh n kinda thin b clashy.


_Posted from Sevenstring.org App for Android_


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## noUser01 (Feb 5, 2013)

redstone said:


> My point of view is quite the opposite, due to the IRs.. amp simulators are perfect on stage, not in studio.



I'm a big fan of using the same tones live as in the studio (with minor tweaks that may need to be done, of course), so I would argue amp sims are perfect for the studio. You don't have to pay nearly as much money to get different sounds.


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## bulb (Feb 5, 2013)

Axefx Live is the best thing ever. I know that our live sound greatly improved when we switched from amps, and then eventually to direct axefx.


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## Veldar (Feb 5, 2013)

bulb said:


> Axefx Live is the best thing ever. I know that our live sound greatly improved when we switched from amps, and then eventually to direct axefx.



Mr. Bulb do you change your patchs when you tour, or use the studio ones?


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## Erazoender (Feb 6, 2013)

bulb said:


> Axefx Live is the best thing ever. I know that our live sound greatly improved when we switched from amps, and then eventually to direct axefx.



Yeah I remember reading your article on Metalsucks a while back about it. I really want to be convinced but I just haven't seen good results around here  I think I'll just conclude that sound guys are tards in Vancouver


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## noUser01 (Feb 6, 2013)

bulb said:


> Axefx Live is the best thing ever. I know that our live sound greatly improved when we switched from amps, and then eventually to direct axefx.



Even if you compare your live videos on YouTube from the Toronto 2010 show to the Paris Halloween show it's a LOT better, Spencer too for that matter. It's incredibly clear.


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## bulb (Feb 6, 2013)

Erazoender said:


> Yeah I remember reading your article on Metalsucks a while back about it. I really want to be convinced but I just haven't seen good results around here  I think I'll just conclude that sound guys are tards in Vancouver



FOH guys will make all the difference of course, but this is true regardless of the gear being used by the band. Most FOH guys love working with the axefx because it is so much easier to work with and get consistent results from night to night, especially when direct.


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## Erazoender (Feb 6, 2013)

What do you think of Gojira's live setup of using a torpedo or some form of DI loadbox for the amp in lieu of cabs and micing? I mean ultimately it's just a much heavier Axe FX but do you think you sort of retain the tonal qualities of the amp as well?

Also, are there any other, cheaper alternatives to the torpedo live?


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 6, 2013)

Palmer makes an analog DI box for around $400.

EDIT: nevermind, it's $700. They can probably be found for $400, though. You're looking for the Palmer PDI-03 or PGA-04.


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## Metalus (Feb 6, 2013)

larry said:


> i wouldn't be turned off to using the axe live just yet. i have had the chance to use mine at practice and it slays, but i set it up to run direct to FOH and through poweramp/cab. with the two signals blended --it's unbeatable. you do need to RTFM and compensate for signal phase in this case though. my direct output and amp/cab output are eq'd appropriately. this setup to me sounds huge. when i crank the power amp, the tone is pretty damn convincing. i'd imagine the axe fx II would be that much better over the ultra in this type of setup.
> 
> if you get the chance to try an axe, invest some quality time with it and i think you'll be happy.
> 
> ...



Agreed. My guitarist and I currently run direct to FOH as well as through our amp/cab setup. It sounds pretty awesome.

What does RTFM mean btw?


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## christheasian (Feb 6, 2013)

so many things come into factor that you can't just blame it on one thing.
as i lay dying and asking both ran direct on outbreak and every night was different. i've ran both direct and with a poweramp/cab. both have it's ups and downs.


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## chimp_spanner (Feb 6, 2013)

I've heard Axe FX sound dire on occasion live. But from what I can tell it's usually a case of people trying to use their studio tones in a live context which rarely works out well (unless you have a shit hot sound guy). Most of the time they sound pretty sick though. I guess it just depends how well it's dialed in, like anything really.

It's funny how many sound guys I've come across that just don't know what to do with a modeler, though. They start EQ'ing it as though they're dealing with an amp, putting gates on, cutting shit out that needn't be cut out just through habit. Always sounds amazing when I play the first chug, and before they've done anything to it haha.

Oh and RTFM = Read The Fucking Manual


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## bulb (Feb 6, 2013)

Erazoender said:


> What do you think of Gojira's live setup of using a torpedo or some form of DI loadbox for the amp in lieu of cabs and micing? I mean ultimately it's just a much heavier Axe FX but do you think you sort of retain the tonal qualities of the amp as well?
> 
> Also, are there any other, cheaper alternatives to the torpedo live?



It is as you said, just a heavier version of the axefx, with no effects. If you love the sound of one amp over everything, it could be the way to go. 
However, to actively shun the axefx, but think that the amp/torpedo route is awesome makes no sense at all haha.


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## redstone (Feb 6, 2013)

bulb said:


> However, to actively shun the axefx, but think that the amp/torpedo route is awesome makes no sense at all haha.



^

Anyway, as far as I know, Gojira didn't use the torpedos on tour yet.


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## Larrikin666 (Feb 6, 2013)

I guess it's weird to me that a few bad experiences make people discount how viable the direct Axe-FX route is. If that was the case, Mesa Rectos are the totally unusable. I think I've heard more guitarists and sound guys make those amps sound atrocious than fantastic. However, I know they're capable of sounding absolutely incredible.


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## sakeido (Feb 6, 2013)

redstone said:


> ^
> 
> Anyway, as far as I know, Gojira didn't use the torpedos on tour yet.



i coulda sworn they were but new concert pic have mics on their cabs, so maybe they aren't or maybe they blend the two?
but gojira isn't on Two Notes website either. bizarre. I thought they had a deal together


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## TheKindred (Feb 6, 2013)

I caught the same Gojira/DTP show the OP references. Devy's tone indeed was pretty weak, the whole mix sounded really canned to me. Gojira was spot on.

I also caught Dev with Katatonia a few months ago at a different (arguably better) venue and it was the same deal. Overproduced 'canned' mix for Dev and then crystal clear for Katatonia.

Most disappointing, Mr.Townsend.


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## redstone (Feb 6, 2013)

My mistake, they've used 3 torpedos for the past 3 weeks.


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## Rick (Feb 6, 2013)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Fear Factory has been known for having that really digital and sterile tone. It fits the music.
> 
> With that said, he recently became a tube amp guy again.



We'll see about that.



HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I think someone said it was because he was trying out Devin Townsend's Axe II.



Yes, he was just testing it out in Europe.

My guess is the sound guy is at fault, at every show I've been to where guitars are going into an Axe FX, the sound was great.


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## asmegin_slayer (Feb 6, 2013)

I've heard the axe fx 2 played through people's monitors and going direct in, and for the most part I thought it sounded a bit too much to the sound. Not clear enough.

Well my mind changing now.

I got to see another band use a Axe fx 2 going direct to the house speaker but also to his own QSC monitor standing vertically. (Don't know what model)

Along with the axe 2, the other guitarist was playing through a 6505 which I later found out that it used to be the other guitarist rig before he got his axe fx 2. 

And the outcome? It sounded great! I later talked to him about his setup and I believe he did model it after the 6505 or 5150, which makes sense because it sounded almost exactly like the 6505 that the other guitarist was playing through.

So what did I get out of it? Simplicity in your sound makes the biggest difference.


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## spawnofthesith (Feb 6, 2013)

I'll still never understand why this is always such a huge debate on guitar forums.... You don't see tons of threads about various amps similar to this.... at the end of the day the Axe FX is like any other high end guitar tone producing unit, either it works for you, or it doesn't. Bottom line. Me personally? I prefer a tube amp, but that doesn't mean shit for whether or not the Axe sounds good...


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## exclamation-mark (Feb 6, 2013)

The axe-fx and the torpedo both use impulses to do the cab simulation thing. If you have any experience with re-amping and impulse generation (specifically of your own cabs), you quickly realize anything re-amped through a mic'd cab and the impulse you generated from the mic'd cab sound 95% the same. There are some things impulses can't capture (and you have to model, ala Axe-FX), but they still sound pretty much identical to the real thing. The idea behind the torpedo is to capture the character of the power amp (things like crossover distortion, sag, clipping duty cycle modulation, etc) by running it into a big resistive load, and then use impulses and mic simulations to emulate the actual frequency response of a mic'd cab.

IMO if you're playing large venues there really isn't any clarity to be gained with a 'real' amplifier as the un-mic'd sound contributes an insignificant amount of volume to what the crowd is hearing through the PA. I think bad sound has less to do with whether an amplifier is solid state, tubed or otherwise, but more to do with the EQ, the sound guy, and the venue.


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## SnowfaLL (Feb 6, 2013)

Larrikin666 said:


> I guess it's weird to me that a few bad experiences make people discount how viable the direct Axe-FX route is. If that was the case, Mesa Rectos are the totally unusable. I think I've heard more guitarists and sound guys make those amps sound atrocious than fantastic. However, I know they're capable of sounding absolutely incredible.



Doesnt surpise me at all; think about how many people badmouth the Pod HD series without even hearing it in person, solely based on Line 6's reputation.. The HD series is such a step up from their older offerings (speaking as someone whos done 3 years of shows with the X3L > Carvin T100 as my whole rig) its just frustrating to hear people bash the HD500 on such a bad argument. Thats how the gear world works, people get this idea perpetuated and run with it, as wrong as it may be. 

But it all comes down to how well you can dial in the amp/device, and the sound guy. Almost anything can be made to sound good live in the right hands. As someone whos owned a Zoom G3, Pod HD500, Kemper and now an Axe-fx Ultra, the differences between them tonally (when dialed in) is quite small IMO, stuf that is more suited to be heard in the studio, Live I doubt anyone could tell. I'd be happy live with the G3, even though I prefer the Kemper tonally the best, but I wont lose sleep not owning the Kemper anymore.


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## noob_pwn (Feb 7, 2013)

Might not just be a bad sound guy. On big tours, support bands get limited, often by more and more dB if they are further down the bill. This is so the headliners sound better/bigger/louder. When a big PA is running at 75% it doesn't seem to open up in the range where the guitars sit and the mix sounds way muddier even if your guy is awesome. This makes good bands sound worse than shitter bands, this is why often all you hear is drums and vocals. It's not the axefx and it's not dev's tone.


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## Veldar (Feb 10, 2013)

The only time I've ever seen a Axe-FX live was for a local band and he's guitar sounded like a bell, but the other guys had a Pod HD Pro and sounded great.


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## spawnofthesith (Feb 10, 2013)

Besides my previous post about why this whole thread is cretin bullshit, and as are the "arguments". Within my personal experiences seeing the Axe Live:

Cynic: Holy shit probably the worst tone I've ever heard out of anything from a live band/

Scale the Summit: Great tone, especially for clean and FX stuff, but I can't lie, for distorted tone they sounded better with Powerballs.

Devin Townsend: Awesome tone

Local band my friend drums in guitaristd axe: Sounded like shit

Over the several times I've seen Periphery: Some times nights better, others worse, but in either situation just "meh"

Wes Hauch: sounded pretty damn good.

There are tons more shows I've been to where the Axe FX is used but these stick out more so. Regardless, it just goes to prove my previous point more so. This thread is just about as idiotic as: "Does the JCM800 sound good live?"

Jesus Christ, you people some times -facepalm-


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## isispelican (Feb 10, 2013)

The only concert i've been to where the band used axefx was Meshuggah and it was the best live tone i've ever heard by far (and the best concert too xD).


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## spawnofthesith (Feb 10, 2013)

isispelican said:


> The only concert i've been to where the band used axefx was Meshuggah and it was the best live tone i've ever heard by far (and the best concert too xD).



I can't believe I forgot that one in my list. agree 100% amazing tone and amazing show


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## ttiwguitar (Feb 10, 2013)

All three times I've seen Devin Townsend, the sound was pretty muddy. It's hard to hear where the samples end and the real instruments are being played when you see him live. I've seen plenty of bands use the Axe FX live with great results, Meshuggah being the best by far.


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## Andromalia (Feb 11, 2013)

Larrikin666 said:


> I guess it's weird to me that a few bad experiences make people discount how viable the direct Axe-FX route is.


It's because thay can't own one, mostly, as you can't find a deal for one for 300$ on craigslist as you can most amps if you search long enough.


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## ShadowFactoryX (Feb 14, 2013)

Transmissions said:


> I always did find it funny that a local opener for the faceless's axe fx shit the bed while the other guitarist's kemper did fine.



and that local band would be whom?


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## Larrikin666 (Feb 14, 2013)

ShadowFactoryX said:


> and that local band would be whom?



Victims of Contagion


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## noUser01 (Feb 19, 2013)

I'm just going to bump this thread up here, just to say that I saw BTBAM last night at The Vogue (same venue as in the OP) with their AxeFX Units and they sounded incredible. The sound guy was a bit of a dink, the bass and kick were too loud, but the guitars themselves sounded incredible, rhythm and lead patches.

Don't blame the unit, we all know what it's capable of... blame the user and/or the sound guy.


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## WarMachine (Feb 19, 2013)

For sure dude, people can bash or praise a unit all they want to, but when it comes down to it, there are people that can tweak their rig to sound God-like and even MORE shotty sound guys to butcher them. I've just never understood why a "sound guy" can rightfully sit in the booth etc and let a band with good gear/skills sound like ass....shit just amazes me. Its like the good sound guy is out sick and the venue says "shit, just tell that dude we'll get him a few beers if he just turns some knobs and plays with the sliders."


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## Pav (Feb 19, 2013)

BTBAM also run their Axe FX's through Mesa Stereo 2 Fifty power amps and actual cabs, rather than going purely digital and connecting direct.


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## noUser01 (Feb 19, 2013)

Pav said:


> BTBAM also run their Axe FX's through Mesa Stereo 2 Fifty power amps and actual cabs, rather than going purely digital and connecting direct.



You sure? I didn't see any cabs on stage or in the wings. Either way, my point still stands.


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## Pav (Feb 19, 2013)

RIGGED: BTBAM GUITARISTS PAUL AND DUSTIE WALK YOU THROUGH THEIR LIVE RIGS | MetalSucks

Yep. Granted that article is almost a year old so things may have changed, but Paul Waggoner has always been big on his Mesa gear.

Though yeah, your point stands either way.


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## noUser01 (Feb 19, 2013)

I think that article is out of date, even though it's only a year old. Paul was using what look like Black Hawks, they were using AxeFX II's - not Ultras - and I didn't see those cabs anywhere, unless maybe they are way off stage in isolation with a mic.


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## reckoner (Feb 19, 2013)

ConnorGilks said:


> I think that article is out of date, even though it's only a year old. Paul was using what look like Black Hawks, they were using AxeFX II's - not Ultras - and I didn't see those cabs anywhere, unless maybe they are way off stage in isolation with a mic.


 
You're right about the Black Hawks. Paul has also been using a Mesa 2:90 power amp lately.

Dustie is still using an Axe FX Ultra. He has a Stereo 50 in his rack as well, but on the C&C tour he's been using the old discontinued Recto 100 power amp. He put a few rig photo's up on instagram. Also included were two Port City 2x12's he runs in stereo.


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## Bretton (Feb 19, 2013)

I was also at the Vancouver gig, and bummed with Devin's sound  The sound guy must have heard him say "playing your hometown is f**kin weird!" and thought "he's from here?! I'd better make him sound bad quick!"

It seemed their sound was mostly samples. I've been chocking it up to bad mix, never considered the Axe Fx was to blame.

Still, it was quite enjoyable, can't believe I took that long to see Devin live.


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## noUser01 (Feb 19, 2013)

reckoner said:


> You're right about the Black Hawks. Paul has also been using a Mesa 2:90 power amp lately.
> 
> Dustie is still using an Axe FX Ultra. He has a Stereo 50 in his rack as well, but on the C&C tour he's been using the old discontinued Recto 100 power amp. He put a few rig photo's up on instagram. Also included were two Port City 2x12's he runs in stereo.



I thought Cliff said something about them both using them... he did mention that he was going to be getting artist patches from both Paul and Dustie, so I just assumed it was for the AxeFX II since there are no artist patches for the Ultra yet, at least not that I know of. Don't see why Dustie would make some if he didn't use the II.


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## incinerated_guitar (Feb 19, 2013)

I know its super quiet, but this video was taken about 8 months ago. I honestly think the tone is great


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## reckoner (Feb 20, 2013)

ConnorGilks said:


> I thought Cliff said something about them both using them... he did mention that he was going to be getting artist patches from both Paul and Dustie, so I just assumed it was for the AxeFX II since there are no artist patches for the Ultra yet, at least not that I know of. Don't see why Dustie would make some if he didn't use the II.









Aaaaaaaand it's an Ultra. Maybe he has a II on the bus, or at home.


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## Speculum Speculorum (Feb 20, 2013)

There are always variables to any live situation. It's tempting for me as an Axe-fx II owner to run a DI to FOH setup, as it would be simple to setup, the cheapest bang for my buck, and allow me all the flexibility of using custom IRs for different sounds I'd be using.

However, having met many sound dudes that are just complete muppets (especially around my neck o' the woods), I just don't know if I'd be able to completely trust somebody to actually know what to do with a high gain signal that wasn't coming out of a mic'ed up amp.


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## noUser01 (Feb 20, 2013)

reckoner said:


> Aaaaaaaand it's an Ultra. Maybe he has a II on the bus, or at home.



Yeah I saw this on Instagram yesterday. Interesting... I wasn't doubting you, by the way, just more curious why Cliff would ask for patches from Dustie.


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## Yo_Wattup (Feb 20, 2013)

I don't understand why people keep saying the axe fx is more 'consistent' than real amps. I mean, you have your settings, you mic up your cab, you give the signal to your sound guy. With an axe, you have your virtual settings, with your virtual cab miced up and you give the signal to the soundguy.... where are the variables in either of these scenarios? The soundguy... and....???


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## Larrikin666 (Feb 20, 2013)

Yo_Wattup said:


> I don't understand why people keep saying the axe fx is more 'consistent' than real amps. I mean, you have your settings, you mic up your cab, you give the signal to your sound guy. With an axe, you have your virtual settings, with your virtual cab miced up and you give the signal to the soundguy.... where are the variables in either of these scenarios? The soundguy... and....???



Microphobic preamp tubes


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## noUser01 (Feb 20, 2013)

Yo_Wattup said:


> I don't understand why people keep saying the axe fx is more 'consistent' than real amps. I mean, you have your settings, you mic up your cab, you give the signal to your sound guy. With an axe, you have your virtual settings, with your virtual cab miced up and you give the signal to the soundguy.... where are the variables in either of these scenarios? The soundguy... and....???



Tubes dying, tubes breaking, speakers blowing, mic placement, bumping a knob by accident, bad power (the AxeFX can be affected too, I just found it to be affected less than a real amp), stuff like that.


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## Yo_Wattup (Feb 20, 2013)

ConnorGilks said:


> Tubes dying, tubes breaking, speakers blowing, mic placement, bumping a knob by accident, bad power (the AxeFX can be affected too, I just found it to be affected less than a real amp), stuff like that.



An axefx can fail as well though. Thing is when an axe fails, boom, there goes everything, your cabs, effects, tone... when a head fails, you just borrow someone else's from the gig, same with a cab...


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## noUser01 (Feb 20, 2013)

Yo_Wattup said:


> An axefx can fail as well though. Thing is when an axe fails, boom, there goes everything, your cabs, effects, tone... when a head fails, you just borrow someone else's from the gig, same with a cab...



No one said it couldn't. We are talking about _eliminating variables_.

And "fails" could mean anything... If an AxeFX DIES then yes, everything is gone... unless of course you were smart and had all your patches backed up via Axe-Edit, or used another backup system of some kind.


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## Pav (Feb 20, 2013)

The possibility of a large digital interface like an AxeFX failing is (hopefully) pretty minimal compared to the number of variables present in analog signal flow affecting your tone. Sure, if an Axe dies it may be dead, but that isn't nearly as frequent a problem as say pre/power tubes dying.


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## sage (Feb 20, 2013)

ConnorGilks said:


> I'm just going to bump this thread up here, just to say that I saw BTBAM last night at The Vogue (same venue as in the OP) with their AxeFX Units and they sounded incredible. The sound guy was a bit of a dink, the bass and kick were too loud, but the guitars themselves sounded incredible, rhythm and lead patches.
> 
> Don't blame the unit, we all know what it's capable of... blame the user and/or the sound guy.



Yeah, I was there too. Awesome show and, yeah, the bass and kick were crazy loud compared to the guitars. Vocals were buried also. Here are my thoughts on the Axe FX sucking live:

This was my sixth BTBAM show and my fourth Coheed show. I'm gonna throw out the time each of them played the Croatian Cultural Centre, because that venue always sounds like balls. Similarly, I'm gonna chuck out the BTBAM show at the Rickshaw because, again, balls. (That fucking venue, would a little sound treatment break the bank?) I can say definitively that I found Coheed's sound at the Vogue on October 30, 2004 better with live amps than it was the other night with the Axe FX units. I can also say without a shadow of a doubt that I found BTBAM's sound at both the Showbox SoDo and El Corazon in Seattle better with mic'd amps. This might just be my ears, it might be a result of a preconceived bias against modelers, or it might be that there is something about shoving a mic in a speaker and running that through the PA lacks a particular brittle shrillness that I hear every time I hear a modeling rig live. But it is so close. So incredibly close. When I think back to the first time I heard modeling amps in a live setting (Chris Cornell, Feb. 8, 2000 - Queen Elizabeth Theatre - Line 6 heads with cabs on stage but going direct to the board), it's so much better than it ever has been and when you add in the versatility and tonal variation that the Axe FX (or Kemper) gives you, I find it very tempting to go that route. 

Overall, the show the other night sounded really good. I think the Axe FX contributes to the ability to have the overall volume levels in the building lower also. I was surprised that it was only 95db toward the back (according to my phone, which I'm pretty sure is not a perfect decibel meter), low enough that I felt comfortable letting my kids take out their earplugs so they could enjoy the full sound. I don't think it's as good as real amps that are properly mic'd and EQ'd, but it probably is better than real amps that are poorly mic'd and I can totally see how human error could make it far worse in a live setting. Here's the thing though, if your tone through the PA sucks, you can always crank your amp. Can't do that with an Axe FX.


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## noUser01 (Feb 20, 2013)

sage said:


> Yeah, I was there too. Awesome show and, yeah, the bass and kick were crazy loud compared to the guitars. Vocals were buried also. Here are my thoughts on the Axe FX sucking live:
> 
> This was my sixth BTBAM show and my fourth Coheed show. I'm gonna throw out the time each of them played the Croatian Cultural Centre, because that venue always sounds like balls. Similarly, I'm gonna chuck out the BTBAM show at the Rickshaw because, again, balls. (That fucking venue, would a little sound treatment break the bank?) I can say definitively that I found Coheed's sound at the Vogue on October 30, 2004 better with live amps than it was the other night with the Axe FX units. I can also say without a shadow of a doubt that I found BTBAM's sound at both the Showbox SoDo and El Corazon in Seattle better with mic'd amps. This might just be my ears, it might be a result of a preconceived bias against modelers, or it might be that there is something about shoving a mic in a speaker and running that through the PA lacks a particular brittle shrillness that I hear every time I hear a modeling rig live. But it is so close. So incredibly close. When I think back to the first time I heard modeling amps in a live setting (Chris Cornell, Feb. 8, 2000 - Queen Elizabeth Theatre - Line 6 heads with cabs on stage but going direct to the board), it's so much better than it ever has been and when you add in the versatility and tonal variation that the Axe FX (or Kemper) gives you, I find it very tempting to go that route.
> 
> Overall, the show the other night sounded really good. I think the Axe FX contributes to the ability to have the overall volume levels in the building lower also. I was surprised that it was only 95db toward the back (according to my phone, which I'm pretty sure is not a perfect decibel meter), low enough that I felt comfortable letting my kids take out their earplugs so they could enjoy the full sound. I don't think it's as good as real amps that are properly mic'd and EQ'd, but it probably is better than real amps that are poorly mic'd and I can totally see how human error could make it far worse in a live setting. Here's the thing though, if your tone through the PA sucks, you can always crank your amp. Can't do that with an Axe FX.



Cool man. Here's my thoughts on the matter:

BTBAM sounded better than Coheed as far as the guitar tones go. That's just my opinion, but I found Coheed's tones (especially the guitarist that was on the left doing most of the leads) very shrill and indistinct without the bassist. For the record though, their drummer was phenomenal. I could hear everything that Paul and Dustie were playing when the bass and kick weren't cranked up (towards the end of their set it was adjusted, much better). With Coheed even when it was just one guitar it was like an ice-pick in the ear. I mean, it was fat still but just had too much top end on top of it to really hear what was going on.

BTBAM were apparently mic'd up with guitar cabs... Does that mean they weren't also going direct too? Does that mean they would've sounded better or worse had they only gone direct? Who knows. Bottom line is I thought they sounded fantastic, despite the kick and bass being too loud for a lot of it. 

If your tone through the PA sucks there's nothing you can do about it at all, really. Sure, maybe you're at a gig that you can get away with turning up your amp enough that it would overpower the PA, but then keep in mind you're at risk of ruining your entire mix. Then the other guitar player and bassist need to turn up, and then the monitors might be too quite for the vocalist to hear himself, and then the drummer has to play even harder and hope he can be heard... it's a mess. If your tone sucks with the AxeFX II, chances are you've got a monitor and you can use it behind you and face it to the crowd, or you're running it through a cab like myself or BTBAM, in which case you CAN just turn it up like a normal amp. It's only the people who don't have ANY way to monitor themselves or just use in-ears and nothing else that will have that issue. I don't personally know anyone who runs their unit like that. Though keep in mind... how often are you going to be able to tell if you sound bad through the PA? Not very often if you're playing a metal show, you've usually got enough stage volume that you'd actually need to physically walk out there to the back just to hear how the PA sounds. Cab with a mic or AxeFX II... either way those problems are still there for both users. 

My buddy had seen BTBAM 4 times (one of them was the Rickshaw show too I think) and he said that's the best they've sounded to him. A couple other guys I was with saw them a couple times, and agreed. This was my first time so I can't say anything on that matter.

I agree, the sound level was perfect! So much quieter than I expected. I will say though that while I took out my earplugs for BTBAM (used my hood to just block that tiny bit of high end from hurting them) I put them back in as soon as Coheed started on their 3rd song, I could feel the pain already. I moved upstairs eventually just to get out of the direct path of the speakers and was then able to go back to just the hood.


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