# Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use



## Bigsby (Nov 6, 2012)

Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use

Thoughts? i'm actually surprised its taken this long


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## spawnofthesith (Nov 6, 2012)

My state knows whats up 


I remember signing the petition to get this on the ballot while standing in line for Summer Slaughter last year lol


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## cyb (Nov 6, 2012)

time to move.


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## Riffer (Nov 6, 2012)

So does that mean you can actually smoke it wherever, whenever you want? Are they going to sell it in stores? I'm not eduacted on what would actually happen if it was ever legalized for recreational use. I've actually never smoked maijuana in my life.


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## TemjinStrife (Nov 6, 2012)

There's going to be a clash between the DEA and the state here, like there has been in Cali. I'll be interested to see how this works out.


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## spawnofthesith (Nov 6, 2012)

Every weed dealer in the state just went out of business


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## Bigsby (Nov 7, 2012)

i hope that this is a step in the right direction for more states to legalize it to some degree if not recreational at least for medicinal purposes



Riffer said:


> So does that mean you can actually smoke it wherever, whenever you want? Are they going to sell it in stores? I'm not eduacted on what would actually happen if it was ever legalized for recreational use. I've actually never smoked maijuana in my life.



from what i understand anybody over the age of 21 can possess a small amount and can only use it Privately which i would _assume_ would be only in your home but i could be wrong


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## SpaceDock (Nov 7, 2012)

I am thrilled about this, a huge majority of folks smoke recreationally here and it is not the nuisance that propaganda will have you believe. The dispensaries are very nice and there isn't the black market with legalization. I can't believe this took so long and it feels great to be validated. People who smoke weed are normal people too.


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## BIG ND SWEATY (Nov 7, 2012)

Riffer said:


> So does that mean you can actually smoke it wherever, whenever you want? Are they going to sell it in stores? I'm not eduacted on what would actually happen if it was ever legalized for recreational use. I've actually never smoked maijuana in my life.



i believe it allows anyone over the age of 21 to posses up to an ounce at any given time, so if someone get pulled over and the cop finds weed as long as its 1oz or below there will be no consequences. it also allows anyone over 21 to grow up to 6 plants


i for one am extremely glad that this passed


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## Bigsby (Nov 7, 2012)

so washington state legalized it as well? and from what i've read oregon is pretty close too 

http://www.courier-journal.com/viewart/20121106/NEWS0106/311060153/legalized-marijuana-use


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## ROAR (Nov 7, 2012)

Celebration time.


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## Aevolve (Nov 7, 2012)

I believe it's a step in the right direction. I'm for decriminalization and taxation, but I don't smoke myself.


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## Semichastny (Nov 7, 2012)

I am much more excited to hear that Washington & Colorado legalized the weed stuff then I am about Obama getting re-elected.


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## TemjinStrife (Nov 7, 2012)

Semichastny said:


> I am much more excited to hear that Washington & Colorado legalized the weed stuff then I am about Obama getting re-elected.



Nah, screw the weed. I'm much happier to see Maryland and Maine allowing same-sex marriage via the ballot box.

Civil rights > *


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## iliketofish (Nov 7, 2012)

Holy shitballs... Hopefully other states catch on.


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## groovemasta (Nov 7, 2012)

spawnofthesith said:


> Every weed dealer in the state just went out of business



Doubtable, it will probably be way more expensive.


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## BIG ND SWEATY (Nov 7, 2012)

groovemasta said:


> Doubtable, it will probably be way more expensive.



why would it be more expensive? out there its normally $10/g and sometimes lower and thats going through a dealer and not a dispensary plus thats at decriminalized rates.


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## groovemasta (Nov 7, 2012)

I just assumed it would be more expensive with taxing and whatnot. 

EDIT - I probably wasn't clear, I meant it would be more expensive to buy from a dispensary making it doubtable dealers would lose business.


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## The Somberlain (Nov 7, 2012)

My 21st birthday is going to be much, much better


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## flint757 (Nov 7, 2012)

groovemasta said:


> I just assumed it would be more expensive with taxing and whatnot.
> 
> EDIT - I probably wasn't clear, I meant it would be more expensive to buy from a dispensary making it doubtable dealers would lose business.



I have similar thoughts.


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## groovemasta (Nov 7, 2012)

Lucky for them anyway 

Hopefully Canada follows soon


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 7, 2012)

Nice, I predict a lot of snoop dogg albums sold


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## groovemasta (Nov 7, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> Nice, I predict a lot of snoop dogg albums sold



Snoop Lion*


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## wrongnote85 (Nov 7, 2012)

my state fuct up tonight. 49% to 51%. ain't that some shit?


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## ZEBOV (Nov 7, 2012)

We need an SSO meetup in Colorado or Washington. We'll smoke lots of weed and write and record ideas. This should last at least a week.


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## TemjinStrife (Nov 7, 2012)

Keep in mind, just because it may be legal to possess and use on the state level, it still remains a federal crime.


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## flint757 (Nov 7, 2012)

I wonder how this will affect those arrested prior for possession?

I wouldn't be surprised if it got overturned honestly. It seems like the first occurrence of controversial laws always do.


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## zappatton2 (Nov 7, 2012)

I hope all the northern border states follow soon. Then, maybe Canada's Regressive Conservatives can stop using trade barriers and border issues as an excuse to ignore the public consensus, and we can finally follow suit.


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## Blake1970 (Nov 7, 2012)

Man I wish this would happen in Texas, maybe in a few years.


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## AxeHappy (Nov 7, 2012)

I don't smoke it but this is a fantastic, if tiny, step in the right direction on ending the war on drugs.


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## theleem (Nov 7, 2012)

It's going to be interesting to go back there now(I'm in Ohio for college) and see how this actually pans out. The fact that it's still a federal crime is going to make stuff complicated, as well as the fact that pretty much every elected official in the state is still against it.

That being said, not being a smoker myself, hopefully the tax money this brings in will do some good, and hopefully this is the first baby step towards ending the colossal failure that is the war on drugs.


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## synrgy (Nov 7, 2012)




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## Lives Once Abstract (Nov 7, 2012)

Looks like wacky tobaky (marijuana) has been voted for and approved in two U.S. states. Being Colorado and Washington. 

Not to mention several other states have won the majority vote for the use of MEDICINAL marijuana. 

Quite a surprise in my opinion. I always knew marijuana would be legal for recreational purposes one day. But, I didn't think it would be so soon. I figured many mire states would have approved its medical use long before recreation was legalized. 

BUT, the federal Government still regards Marijuana as a Schedule I, Controlled substance. Among these include LSD, ecstasy, heroin, and so on. How will the State and Federal governments of these two states comply with one another and how can the DEA make arrests and and confiscation the conflicts with state law?


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## RevDrucifer (Nov 7, 2012)

Going to be tricky for the federal side to control shit now. Shutting down dispensaries is a lot easier than finding non-commercial dealers, especially dealers big enough to get the DEA to act on it.

Really, it's what we needed to get them to stop fighting against us. 

The pot issue has moved fairly quickly in recent times, it'll only be a few more years before the rest of the states catch up. It'll be interesting to see the reports on drug-related crime/money/time saved as a result of the legalization.


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## Lives Once Abstract (Nov 7, 2012)

RevDrucifer said:


> Going to be tricky for the federal side to control shit now. Shutting down dispensaries is a lot easier than finding non-commercial dealers, especially dealers big enough to get the DEA to act on it.
> 
> Really, it's what we needed to get them to stop fighting against us.
> 
> The pot issue has moved fairly quickly in recent times, it'll only be a few more years before the rest of the states catch up. It'll be interesting to see the reports on drug-related crime/money/time saved as a result of the legalization.



I have somewhat of a thought on what might happen.

I wanna say that with two states being in the recreational legalization of marijuana, growing especially in the two specific states of Col. and Was. will likely skyrocket. along with the sale of marijuana in stores now, not just dispensaries. those being smoke shops and even possibly convenience stores like alcohol and tobacco are sold. This making it MUCH MUCH easier for people to get there hands on to. Which in turn I think will cause other states to be illegally transporting them across state borders and the DEA wont be able to handle the amount of marijuana being found EVERYWHERE.


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## Nonservium (Nov 7, 2012)

Praise Crom!


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## Alpenglow (Nov 7, 2012)

To me, this is great news because it just makes no sense not to legalize. I hate to sound preachy but a taxable, not harmful substance in high demand is exactly what we need in economic times like this, not to mention if the cartels have no one to sell their weed to, they'll stop bringing it over the border. Pretty good news for everyone, regardless of whether or not you actually smoke weed. Hopefully the law will spread across states now and we will see marijuana become a regulated substance like alcohol. It'll be interesting to see how much money is saved by not prosecuting and arresting people for possession of marijuana.


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## Lives Once Abstract (Nov 7, 2012)

Nonservium said:


> Praise Crom!



? 



Alpenglow said:


> To me, this is great news because it just makes no sense not to legalize. I hate to sound preachy but a taxable, not harmful substance in high demand is exactly what we need in economic times like this, not to mention if the cartels have no one to sell their weed to, they'll stop bringing it over the border. Pretty good news for everyone, regardless of whether or not you actually smoke weed. Hopefully the law will spread across states now and we will see marijuana become a regulated substance like alcohol. It'll be interesting to see how much money is saved by not prosecuting and arresting people for possession of marijuana.



 +1 rep for you good sir


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## avenger (Nov 7, 2012)

It will only be sold in "highly regulated specialized recreational stores" with individuals being allowed up to 6 plants for personal use. 

Possession of up to 1 oz is 100% legal but public use will stay illegal.

All according to the Colorado Post article I was reading. I think its a great step for full legalization of marijuana. I am sure there will be more then a handful of federal vs state cases in the future though.


What the fuck am I talking about... WEEDS LEGAL WOOOOOOO1!11!!


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## jawbreaker (Nov 7, 2012)

Being from Nebraska I'm extremely glad that this passed. The shitty part is I'm on probation a state away for marijuana possession. Either way, GO COLORADO!! I guess we shouldn't forget Washington either haha


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## FireInside (Nov 7, 2012)

I'm shocked this didn't pass in California during the last election. Next time I guess?


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## BIG ND SWEATY (Nov 7, 2012)

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/po...ado-legalizes-marijuana-recreational-use.html


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## tacotiklah (Nov 7, 2012)

I'd ask what BrainArt thought about all of this (Only person I remember that lives in Colorado), but I suspect he isn't on here due to being completely blazed out of his skull.


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## Nonservium (Nov 7, 2012)

Lives Once Abstract said:


> ?





You don't know who Crom is? He laughs at your gods.


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## BIG ND SWEATY (Nov 7, 2012)

it makes me die a little on the inside whn someone doesnt know who Crom is


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## Nonservium (Nov 7, 2012)

I am shocked this didn't pass in Oregon last night but did pass in Washington and Mass. as well. It's just a matter of time from here on out.


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## tacotiklah (Nov 7, 2012)

BIG ND SWEATY said:


> it makes me die a little on the inside whn someone doesnt know who Crom is



I'll give a clue:

Arnold Schwarzenegger. ;D


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Nov 7, 2012)

Crom sits atop his mountian and laughs an your fore winds.


Oh, and yippie for sanity!


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## Lives Once Abstract (Nov 7, 2012)

BIG ND SWEATY said:


> http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/po...ado-legalizes-marijuana-recreational-use.html



HA!  He beet me to it by 12 hours...  I apologize to SS.org for posting whats already been posted. I looked briefly and I guess I missed that one.

And I wonder what the DEA is thinking. Probably, "What the fuck... Really? Fuck you guys."


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## Nonservium (Nov 7, 2012)

Oddly enough we were already kicking around moving to Colorado. Last night I gained one more reason to relocate!


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## -42- (Nov 7, 2012)

In other news, Colorado adopts a new state song:


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## Lagtastic (Nov 7, 2012)

The only chance this has is creation of a large amount of tax dollars, which I'm sure it will do relatively quickly. Friends I have in states where it's legal for medicinal purposes tell me it's extremely easy to get and much cheaper than states where it's not legal for medical purposes. The wheels are set in motion, we will see it legalized in the next 20 years. 

I'm not a smoker myself but I do think it should be legalized and taxed.


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## sleightest (Nov 7, 2012)

What?


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## DTSH (Nov 7, 2012)

This is probably going to lead to some pretty serious states rights issues... It's still a Schedule I substance--Meaning an illegal drug with no medical uses, the so-called worst of the so-called worst--per the federal government, which has been a problem for the 17 states with Medical Programs. 

We'll see what happens but hopefully this will demonstrate a less ridiculous drug policy on the part of the Feds. Lot of money and time gets wasted on the "War on drugs," which is the least successful war the US has ever been in, including Vietnam, Afghanistan, and even the War of 1812, during which the freaking white house was burned down.


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## Lives Once Abstract (Nov 7, 2012)

I have a feeling there will be a movement after a trial or two to SERIOUSLY remove Tetrahydracannibanol (THC) from the Schedule 1 list this time. But that doesn't mean the DEA will completely remove it from the controlled substances list. Since there have been medical uses and "abuse" of cannabis. I could see the DEA in the near future deeming Marijuana as a Schedule II.


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## Nonservium (Nov 7, 2012)

It only ended up on there due to lies anyways so it's time that wrong is corrected.


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## Lives Once Abstract (Nov 7, 2012)

I agree. It should not be a controlled substance at all haha. It should be considered and herb when classifying its medicinal properties. A recreationally used medical herb


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## Alpenglow (Nov 7, 2012)

Lives Once Abstract said:


> I have a feeling there will be a movement after a trial or two to SERIOUSLY remove Tetrahydracannibanol (THC) from the Schedule 1 list this time. But that doesn't mean the DEA will completely remove it from the controlled substances list. Since there have been medical uses and "abuse" of cannabis. I could see the DEA in the near future deeming Marijuana as a Schedule II.



That would be a great step in the right direction. THC and cannabidiol haven't been proven to have any of the same debilitating effects as other schedule I drugs such as heroin. Frankly, it's ridiculous that marijuana is schedule I and drugs like oxycontin and ritalin are lower on the schedule list.

Edit: I don't mean to say that ritalin and oxycontin don't have their uses. They're regulated correctly. I meant they have a much higher tendency for addiction and can actually be overdosed on, unlike THC, which I believe should be at least schedule II.


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## tacotiklah (Nov 7, 2012)

Yeah I was gonna chime in and say that before everyone in Colorado and Washington gets baked out of their minds, know that the federal government is mostly likely gonna come in and shut it all down and have the process move up through court after court until it hits the Supreme Court. It's a step in the right direction, but I'm 99% sure this isn't the last of it, sadly enough.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 7, 2012)

Yeah I still think its bullshit that people can't use marijuanna for medical purposes. As someone who has had to take some pretty serious painkillers like hydromorphine and oxy for chronic pain, I can tell you that the side effects of using a bit of weed compared to the two aforementioned drugs is a lot less severe. Using those other two painkillers literally changes you as a person, you are constantly tired, agitated and can't think straight. I feel really bad for people in the states that have to use such powerful drugs when they could just smoke a bit of weed.


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## BrainArt (Nov 7, 2012)

ghstofperdition said:


> I'd ask what BrainArt thought about all of this (Only person I remember that lives in Colorado), but I suspect he isn't on here due to being completely blazed out of his skull.



Not blazed.  But, I'm all for it.

I see it like this: who am I to tell someone else what they can and can't put in their body? That would make me a hypocrite, since I drink alcohol and smoke tobacco.

As long as people aren't being stupid with it (whether it be cannabis, alcohol or anything else) and out hurting people, it's fine.


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## tacotiklah (Nov 7, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> Yeah I still think its bullshit that people can't use marijuanna for medical purposes. As someone who has had to take some pretty serious painkillers like hydromorphine and oxy for chronic pain, I can tell you that the side effects of using a bit of weed compared to the two aforementioned drugs is a lot less severe. Using those other two painkillers literally changes you as a person, you are constantly tired, agitated and can't think straight. I feel really bad for people in the states that have to use such powerful drugs when they could just smoke a bit of weed.


 

I have bad insomnia and I'm supposed to be taking ativan for it. That shit is addictive as hell, and it just hits you out of nowhere. I've seen other people that take it just pop it like it's candy and then go into fugue states and short comas. 
I stopped using that crap and smoke out every so often, and I get the most deep, peaceful sleep I could ever ask for and wake up with no side effects at all. It helps way more than it hurts in my case, and I think it's retarded that it's banned in so many places. When it comes to sex and drugs, America can be pretty childish.


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## DTSH (Nov 7, 2012)

ghstofperdition said:


> I have bad insomnia and I'm supposed to be taking ativan for it. That shit is addictive as hell, and it just hits you out of nowhere. I've seen other people that take it just pop it like it's candy and then go into fugue states and short comas.
> I stopped using that crap and smoke out every so often, and I get the most deep, peaceful sleep I could ever ask for and wake up with no side effects at all. It helps way more than it hurts in my case, and I think it's retarded that it's banned in so many places. When it comes to sex and drugs, America can be pretty childish.



When compared to heavy duty benzos like Ativan, Klonopin, Xanax, etc, I can't help but feel like something that grows out of the ground is probably safer. I know a few people who've lost a lot to the pill bottle, so I fully support your right to smoke up and take a nap. 

And by the way, why are doctors willing to hand out said pills like fucking candy and yet the government somehow figured out a way to make a PLANT ILLEGAL. If you think about it that way, it's fucking crazy. 

And I demand to know why they haven't outlawed poison ivy. That shit itches.


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## flint757 (Nov 7, 2012)

When i get serious insomnia the only thing that works for me is mary jane, pretty much the only time I bother either. It has also been a marvelous pain reliever.

I have taken sleeping pills and pain pills in the past and can absolutely say weed is far better for the mind and body.


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## synrgy (Nov 7, 2012)

We still have a long way to go. These were major victories in The War On The War On Drugs, but like others are saying, State doesn't supersede Federal. While there's a shop on every corner in Los Angeles, they get raided a lot. Granted, I'd rather it be the guy who's running a shop with a legal permit - who therefore has little to worry about, _really_ - than one of my loved ones getting caught up in a street-level bust and suffering the subsequent consequences.

All of that said, I generally believe that most people - consciously or not - subscribe to the "World Revolves Around Me" theory, which is to say that most folks are too busy caught up with their own lives to pay attention to what the rest of us are doing at any given moment. Presuming we're talking about how it will effect the average user (not dealer), one has little to worry about if they just keep to themselves, incognito.

It's dumb kids (though probably smarter than I used to be when I was their age) doing shit like going on blunt cruises, hot boxing their parent's car while driving on local roads, usually at night - when cops tend to have a larger presence.


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## tacotiklah (Nov 7, 2012)

Come to think of it, the worst side effect I had to deal with when it comes to weed was that I once coughed so hard that it forced a fart out and it really hurt.

Wow, now I know why it was outlawed to begin with....


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Nov 7, 2012)

Colorado and Washington Local News: Methane levels at record high statewide.


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## flint757 (Nov 7, 2012)

synrgy said:


> We still have a long way to go. These were major victories in The War On The War On Drugs, but like others are saying, State doesn't supersede Federal. While there's a shop on every corner in Los Angeles, they get raided a lot. Granted, I'd rather it be the guy who's running a shop with a legal permit - who therefore has little to worry about, _really_ - than one of my loved ones getting caught up in a street-level bust and suffering the subsequent consequences.
> 
> All of that said, I generally believe that most people - consciously or not - subscribe to the "World Revolves Around Me" theory, which is to say that most folks are too busy caught up with their own lives to pay attention to what the rest of us are doing at any given moment. Presuming we're talking about how it will effect the average user (not dealer), one has little to worry about if they just keep to themselves, incognito.
> 
> It's dumb kids (though probably smarter than I used to be when I was their age) doing shit like going on blunt cruises, hot boxing their parent's car while driving on local roads, usually at night - when cops tend to have a larger presence.



Yes very true. The legal aspect is beneficial because it will get rid of the "This is a terrible thing" mentality (over a long period of time though). Also over time people might stop getting fired over it as well as it means less when it is legal. As long as it is illegal that will never change.

IMO getting fired should come down to whether you are behaving competently, professionally and safely at the workplace and that is it. If someone got high last week on vacation and then gets drug tested at work the next week, he loses his job even though he was actually clean (mentally). It is this scenario that makes me want to fight for it's legal status and that is pretty much it. It is truly rare that I ever partake in the activity, very rare.


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## tacotiklah (Nov 8, 2012)

Well you shouldn't be drinking while on the job and if you have a ton of alcohol in your system when you drug/alcohol test for a job, you'll still be denied a position. So I could still see people wanting to test for marijuana when drug testing. The only real change now is that there can be an acceptable level in your system and still not fail the test.


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## flint757 (Nov 8, 2012)

Well the acceptable level was where I was getting at, I definitely don't condone people being messed up on the job at all, no matter the substance of choice.

I don't have a problem with people being tested or fired for such things, especially if they are failing at their job, but I do and always have had a problem with random drug testing honestly.


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## DTSH (Nov 8, 2012)

The other issue with marijuana drug testing is the half life of THC within your system... it sticks around a LOT longer than alcohol, and a lot longer than it's psychoactive. Some metabolites last as long as 2-3 weeks, depending on frequency of smoking and body fat content. 

Could get ugly if jobs don't recognize it as legal. If you could get fired for having a beer five days ago, no one would be employed.


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## flint757 (Nov 8, 2012)

Indeed I'd be fired.


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## Bigsby (Nov 8, 2012)

Marijuana legalization victories could be short-lived - Yahoo! News


> Sabet said he expected the Obama administration would at some point file a federal lawsuit to challenge and seek to block aspects of state-level legalization measures and that this "is going to be caught up in the courts for quite a while"


wut


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## flint757 (Nov 8, 2012)

Yeah Democrats nor Republicans are pro weed, not surprised. Same thing happened with the gay rights stuff initially so it was to be expected. It is still progress though as it will come up again.

Love how it says that they will send letters to Governors telling them not to collect taxes.


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## Semichastny (Nov 8, 2012)

flint757 said:


> Love how it says that they will send letters to Governors telling them not to collect taxes.



"I know we are in the mist of a slow recovery from one of the worst financial crises to hit America in decades and the fiscal cliff is looming, but could you please not try to take in any extra money... do you really even need it?" -Fed Logic


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## Overtone (Nov 8, 2012)

State/local law enforcement not being able to prosecute people for small (i.e. personal) quantities is a great thing. AFAIK not a very large number of recreational/medicinal users are busted by DEA/FBI, but by their community's PD, and suffer grave consequences, so it's good if an end comes to that. 

I visited Spain in 2002 and people were fairly lax about it, but they told me there is an unspoken rule... as far as the cops are concerned it's ok to use it and grow it, but the moment you sell it or give it to somebody else, that's when they would arrest and prosecute. The current split between state and federal law could lead to something like that. 

I think it's enough that the people who really want it or benefit from it can grow it in their houses without having to worry about being convicted. I've got nothing against dispensaries, but if the country is not ready to view cannabis as a crop that people have the right to make money by growing/selling, I'm also ok with the idea of there not being any dispensaries. I think my stance is a bit politically inconvenient because there is no tax to collect from people who grow their own, but ultimately people should be able to grow and consume whatever the hell they want without any government interference.


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## Blake1970 (Nov 8, 2012)

flint757 said:


> Yeah Democrats nor Republicans are pro weed, not surprised. Same thing happened with the gay rights stuff initially so it was to be expected. It is still progress though as it will come up again.
> 
> Love how it says that they will send letters to Governors telling them not to collect taxes.



I just don't understand how the feds would not be alright with them collecting taxes on it.  It seems logical to me that taxing it would help the local economy.


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## Overtone (Nov 8, 2012)

In principle, and to normal persons, that makes sense. But I'm guessing lawmakers will see it as taxes derived from activity is that a federal crime, ie. the government getting their hands dirty.


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## Lives Once Abstract (Nov 8, 2012)

What I find funny about this whole situation is that: 1, America is a democracy. 2, Democracy summed up means power to the people. Meaning we have ultimate sovereignty. 3, If citizens of the United States vote for a law to be revoked and or passed that over rules what the government "thinks" is best and what they want. And they disregard the people. THATS FUCKED UP. Because they are not dictators. 

If the federal government arrests and confiscates marijuana from those who are abiding by state law, that is an unconstituationally arbitrary decision. If the supreme court ends up finding the DEAs actions that conflict with state law (not matter how much Federal law may supersede State laws) within constitutional right, its a slap in the face to every American saying that the federal government doesn't give a shit what the people want, and that they are going to do whatever the fuck they want to because they are in a position of power. OUR NATION WAS FOUNDED AND DECLARED INDEPENDENT FOR THIS EXACT REASON. I'm interested to see how smart the supreme court will be in ruling on this. Because it will come down to the supreme court I guarantee you.


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## synrgy (Nov 8, 2012)

Lives Once Abstract said:


> Because it will come down to the supreme court I guarantee you.



Bingo. SCOTUS is why I'm particularly grateful the Presidential race didn't turn out differently.


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## RevDrucifer (Nov 8, 2012)

If pot stays illegal, it's job security for a lot of people. Look at how many people are in jail for pot charges, from the smallest possession charges to the biggest production/dealing charges. That's a lot of guards, a lot of state prosecutors, a lot of judges, a lot of cops....all making a livelihood off keeping the wheel turning.

Not to mention the funding/fringe benefits that come along when your department makes a big bust. People move up in rank, get a bigger salary, get taken from behind a desk and shipped out "undercover" to resorts in South America to essentially, party like fucking rockstars while gathering "info" (aka blackmail) on foreign cartels, make a big bust....rinse and repeat...

This is a good time though. I think there a lot of things set in motion that can bring some serious change to the way things are being done. Our economy is completely fucked, if things stay the same, it's going to get really tough. But, the people were just shown that they've got a bit of a voice left in our decision making.

If the feds try and take that away, get your goulashes Randy, cuz I see a shitstorm a-comin'. 

And so what, the feds can sue the state and even win....does that mean that local PD is actually going to start busting people in a state that's already not busting people? The people already won in those states. 

Once the money starts rolling in from the sales, there won't be anything but proof that it's what this country needs more than anything. It's a plant, you grow it. You sell it. Make money. Plant more seeds...grow it...sell it...repeat, repeat...endless cash flow. 

And don't get me started on the gay marriage thing. The fact that it's even a fucking issue up for debate and a public vote disgusts me. It's one thing for the government to tell us that smoking a plant is bad for us, it's a complete other to extend their hand to define what is or isn't right with people's personal beliefs/feelings. 

Congrats to Maine and Maryland, I hope the rest of the US wakes the fuck up soon....


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 8, 2012)

They were legislating the use of a plant... 

To me it's the same as gay marriage in the sense that, they should have never fucked with it in the first place...


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 8, 2012)

spawnofthesith said:


> Every weed dealer in the state just went out of business





> Goddammit! Time to get a real job!


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## Lives Once Abstract (Nov 8, 2012)

RevDrucifer said:


> And so what, the feds can sue the state and even win....does that mean that local PD is actually going to start busting people in a state that's already not busting people? The people already won in those states.



No but if the DEA does that, there will be a case for sure. If the supreme court rules the DEAs actions constitutional thats flat out WRONG. We already know how fucked up the DEA is in the first place. They are going to do what ever they want. But if the supreme court sides with them!?   It will be one of the biggest issues I think the nation could have right now. That is almost a communistic threat to our society!

EDIT: And if that does happen, the nation will truly see where the hearts of our Senate, House of Rep. and President are. Because they will not be able to sit back and ignore. If this does happen, it could either make Obama look like one of the greatest presidents of the nations history for standing up for the USA's principle of democracy, or vise versa making him look like the worst president we've ever had.


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## RevDrucifer (Nov 8, 2012)

Lives Once Abstract said:


> What I find funny about this whole situation is that: 1, America is a democracy. 2, Democracy summed up means power to the people. Meaning we have ultimate sovereignty. 3, If citizens of the United States vote for a law to be revoked and or passed that over rules what the government "thinks" is best and what they want. And they disregard the people. THATS FUCKED UP. Because they are not dictators.
> 
> If the federal government arrests and confiscates marijuana from those who are abiding by state law, that is an unconstituationally arbitrary decision. If the supreme court ends up finding the DEAs actions that conflict with state law (not matter how much Federal law may supersede State laws) within constitutional right, its a slap in the face to every American saying that the federal government doesn't give a shit what the people want, and that they are going to do whatever the fuck they want to because they are in a position of power. OUR NATION WAS FOUNDED AND DECLARED INDEPENDENT FOR THIS EXACT REASON. I'm interested to see how smart the supreme court will be in ruling on this. Because it will come down to the supreme court I guarantee you.




Indeed.

Thing is, the federal government has been straight up telling us they don't give a shit for several years now. I don't know exactly how the law is phrased, but essentially, once 13 or more states consider a drug or medication to be a relevant and purposeful for proper treatment, it's supposed to be passed on a federal level, or made legal. Well we're up to 17 states now and the feds are still shutting down dispensaries and keeping it illegal.

So it's already happening, it's now just seeing how far they're going to push it and how far us citizens are going to push back.


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## RevDrucifer (Nov 8, 2012)

Lives Once Abstract said:


> No but if the DEA does that, there will be a case for sure. If the supreme court rules the DEAs actions constitutional thats flat out WRONG. We already know how fucked up the DEA is in the first place. They are going to do what ever they want. But if the supreme court sides with them!?   It will be one of the biggest issues I think the nation could have right now. That is almost a communistic threat to our society!



Absolutely. 

Could very well be witnessing an actual statement from our government that THEY are in control. (They are, and have been for years, but they like to let us think we are by allowing us to vote on everything...). 

I'm a bit of a conspiracy theory guy, so though I do smoke pot, this whole thing is bigger than the pot itself, I'm more interested in seeing how this is going to play and out and see what the government does when faced with the people fighting back.


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 8, 2012)

I have Public Enemy songs stuck in my head now.


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## Lives Once Abstract (Nov 8, 2012)

RevDrucifer said:


> Indeed.
> 
> Thing is, the federal government has been straight up telling us they don't give a shit for several years now.



They have been doing things that may implement this, but when the supreme court of all parts of the federal level take their side in a matter like that. Its game over. 



RevDrucifer said:


> I don't know exactly how the law is phrased, but essentially, once 13 or more states consider a drug or medication to be a relevant and purposeful for proper treatment, it's supposed to be passed on a federal level, or made legal. Well we're up to 17 states now and the feds are still shutting down dispensaries and keeping it illegal.
> 
> So it's already happening, it's now just seeing how far they're going to push it and how far us citizens are going to push back.



Ill fucking riot that shit if it comes down to them using force. I dont wanna be in prison or jail, but Im not going to let the government run over us that far as to try to make arbitrary decisions against our nations foundation.  thats too far.

EDIT:


RevDrucifer said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> Could very well be witnessing an actual statement from our government that THEY are in control. (They are, and have been for years, but they like to let us think we are by allowing us to vote on everything...).
> 
> I'm a bit of a conspiracy theory guy, so though I do smoke pot, this whole thing is bigger than the pot itself, I'm more interested in seeing how this is going to play and out and see what the government does when faced with the people fighting back.



I'm not even concerned about the whole pot issue right now. Your right, it's on a WHOLE FUCKING OTHER LEVEL.


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## Nonservium (Nov 8, 2012)

This will get ugly before it gets to where it needs to be. Sooner or later they'll have to listen. Job security for thugs be damned.


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## Fat-Elf (Nov 8, 2012)

The drug episode of South Park is just coming from the tv at the moment. "Weed is bad because I haven't tried it". Haha, classic.  

And on the topic, even though I have never tried weed or never will, I think it is good that they get taxes of selling it. That's the only reason I would want it to be legalized in my country. With the exception that it is illegal to smoke in public, I am already pissed enough with the smokers.


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## Lives Once Abstract (Nov 9, 2012)

Fat-Elf said:


> The drug episode of South Park is just coming from the tv at the moment. "Weed is bad because I haven't tried it". Haha, classic.
> 
> And on the topic, even though I have never tried weed or never will, I think it is good that they get taxes of selling it. That's the only reason I would want it to be legalized in my country. With the exception that it is illegal to smoke in public, I am already pissed enough with the smokers.



And why is it that you are upset with smokers?


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## Fat-Elf (Nov 9, 2012)

Lives Once Abstract said:


> And why is it that you are upset with smokers?



Because I have to suffer of the smoke everyday when I'm biking outside. Passive smoking ftw..


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 9, 2012)

Yeah i agree, i partake occasionally but nobody should have to deal with the side effects of your actions.


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## flint757 (Nov 9, 2012)

I smoke tobacco on a rare occasion, but I was glad when portions of my campus became no smoking zones. It wasn't the smoke though (doesn't bother me, although people should be super polite when smoking IMO), it was the fucking littering. Ash tray is 2 FEET AWAY and they still throw the butt on the ground. Assholes.


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## lurgar (Nov 10, 2012)

Cases have been dismissed in Washington based upon this law.

This is really cool and gives me some good hope for these laws staying in place.


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## TemjinStrife (Nov 10, 2012)

lurgar said:


> Cases have been dismissed in Washington based upon this law.
> 
> This is really cool and gives me some good hope for these laws staying in place.



Don't hold your breath. Those are all state/city cases. It's still a federal crime.


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## ROAR (Nov 10, 2012)

My goal throughout adulthood is to reach Stephen Carpenter/Matt Pike levels.
These amendments will help me. Thank you America.


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## tacotiklah (Nov 10, 2012)

Yeah just as I called it earlier, it seems the feds are already wanting to roll in and overturn this. It's interesting as I read in a link posted here (too lazy to find/quote it.  ) that this puts Obama in a bit of a schadenfreude since he has promised to crack down on recreational marijuana use, yet the broad base of young democrats that voted him in office are also pro-legalization. So it's either he breaks his promise of cracking down (which will of course be used against him I'm sure) or he alienates himself from a decent amount of his supporters by pushing too hard on this issue.

Really though, it's now up to the DEA and Obama administration as to what they are going to do next. While I don't normally advocate this (and is probably unrealistic), it's my hope they turn a blind eye for a while to at least give this a chance to see if it will work out...


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## Adam Of Angels (Nov 10, 2012)

We need to completely legalize it for quite a while to see how it works out. If we legalize it for 5 years, there will be a significant increase of stupidity from younger folks that would be riding on the novelty of legal marijuana use, which would give the old conservative crowd plenty of reasons to over-rule the new found legalization. If we legalize it for 20 years, I guarantee that crime rates will go down, drug abuse stays practically the same, fewer decent people will be stuck in jail, and an incredible amount of tax revenue would be generated.


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## The Somberlain (Nov 10, 2012)

Lives Once Abstract said:


> That is almost a communistic threat to our society!



Communist? I think you mean authoritarian. I would love to break blunts with Marx, Engels, John Reed, or Rosa Luxemburg


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## troyguitar (Nov 10, 2012)

I wonder how many people are going to get fired from their jobs now after "random" drug screening


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## matt397 (Nov 10, 2012)

I'm not sure I quite understand how the powers that be have come to the conclusion that Alcohol should be legal but Marijuana has to remain illegal. It's good to see some progress in that people are starting to look at the drug differently.

I mean even if you look at it from a business perspective. There is billions of dollars in taxes lost every year that pot remains illegal.


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## troyguitar (Nov 10, 2012)

matt397 said:


> I mean even if you look at it from a business perspective. There is billions of dollars in taxes lost every year that pot remains illegal.



Not necessarily true. Look at all of the money generated in fines and stuff for pot use/possession, it could very well be more than is made from any sales tax on it. (I have no idea what the numbers are, but they need to be considered)

There's also the fact that we would probably have a lot of government-employed people looking for new jobs with the greatly reduced burden on the police force, courts, and prison system.


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## flint757 (Nov 10, 2012)

Yeah sadly there is a lot of money in ruining peoples lives.


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## matt397 (Nov 10, 2012)

troyguitar said:


> Not necessarily true. Look at all of the money generated in fines and stuff for pot use/possession, it could very well be more than is made from any sales tax on it. (I have no idea what the numbers are, but they need to be considered)
> 
> There's also the fact that we would probably have a lot of government-employed people looking for new jobs with the greatly reduced burden on the police force, courts, and prison system.



The "war on drugs" im sure generates a shit ton of revenue by fines and incarceration creates jobs. I wont dispute that. Although if you were to legalize marijuana you would still have revenue from fines for trafficking, you would have fines for carrying over the legal limit, fines for driving under the influence of plus revenue generated by the sale. I'd almost be inclined to say that theres more to gain by legalizing it then there is by keeping it illegal. m not even sure there would be that many jobs lost. Crack, coke, meth, heroin and illegal scrips play a much larger role in incarceration then pot im sure. Im just speculating though as im no authority on the matter.


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## ROAR (Nov 10, 2012)

Look. Decriminalize everything. EVERYTHING.
Get caught with heroin, meth, blah blah drugs: You get help. Not some iron bars.
Rehabilitation. 
In every case of someone committing a crime that should have been the end goal.
Not putting someone in a cell and throwing away the key.
Just check out Portugal's drug policies, or Norway's views of criminals.
Really you guys should check these things out, think about it, and tell your representatives
how you feel.


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## flint757 (Nov 10, 2012)

Agreed. That being said a drug addict who doesn't want help won't gain anything from rehab. Jail isn't going to do anything for them either though.


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## ROAR (Nov 10, 2012)

True, but there are exceptions to everything ever.


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## tacotiklah (Nov 11, 2012)

flint757 said:


> Yeah sadly there is a lot of money in ruining peoples lives.



Chris Rock said it best, "Behind every great fortune lies a great crime."


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## MikeK (Nov 11, 2012)

Its hard to say how much money we actually make on prosecuting marijuana users really. They will get hit with small fines for first or second offenses, but in many states a third or fourth offense will put you in jail for an extended time. Any money made on those people will then be lost since our tax dollars have to feed, cloth, and shelter this person for however long their sentence is. A plant is not something that should be able to put a person behind bars with violent criminals and sex offenders.


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## Semichastny (Nov 11, 2012)

$16 Billion in revenue and savings between the federal/state level government. The following is based on two studies and even has citations.

Tax Revenue from Legalizing Marijuana Could Be Up to $100 Billion


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## SirMyghin (Nov 11, 2012)

flint757 said:


> Agreed. That being said a drug addict who doesn't want help won't gain anything from rehab. Jail isn't going to do anything for them either though.



To some extent you are right, but having a wife who works in addictions treatment, most mandated clients actually take to the program and do very well. Sometimes all it takes is that kick in the ass to get you started.

As far as legalizing pot, I am fairly laissez faire, but I cannot support that in any means. I have grown up through all varieties of drug and alcohol abuse, but nothing was worse than the chronic pot user. Not the cocaine, not the beer. Seriously. Then again, this is a forum full of 'musicians' so I can't tickle myself surprised.


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## flint757 (Nov 11, 2012)

SirMyghin said:


> To some extent you are right, but having a wife who works in addictions treatment, most mandated clients actually take to the program and do very well. Sometimes all it takes is that kick in the ass to get you started.
> 
> As far as legalizing pot, I am fairly laissez faire, but I cannot support that in any means. I have grown up through all varieties of drug and alcohol abuse, but nothing was worse than the chronic pot user. Not the cocaine, not the beer. Seriously. Then again, this is a forum full of 'musicians' so I can't tickle myself surprised.



Oh I know that kick in the butt can help. Every addict I have ever known did great 'in' rehab, but when they left, maybe 6 months later, they've all relapsed and it was court mandated in these particular cases. There are always exceptions and I think rehab is a better alternative than jail even if it didn't work though. Jail for drug abuse make no sense at all IMO. (mind you, if they didn't commit a crime on top of it)

I don't know about that. Every alcoholic I know, and I know quite a few, is violent, shows up to work drunk and are impossible to actually work with or doesn't show up at all. In the home life they are abusive, emotionally and/or physically. I also know chronic pot users and they are nice people, go to work everyday and completely nonviolent individuals. Cocaine was pretty bad too, but I've only met one person who ruined their life over it and that was because they couldn't stay awake at work, but that was pretty much it.

What was so bad about the people you knew who were pot users???


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## Semichastny (Nov 11, 2012)

If someone is already bad person smoking marijuana won't change that, but if a person is good they need to drink or take physically addicting drugs to turn bad. Marijuana does not change people, it just can offer an opportunity and excuse for people with bad behavior.


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## flint757 (Nov 11, 2012)

Yeah, but a violent person smoking pot is going to be the same person either way (violent) and if they repress that chances are they will still be able too. Whereas alcohol has a way of making people who are able to hold it in (violent thoughts) into actively violent people. I've never met someone who was harboring violent thoughts who drank and didn't get into a fight of some sort. Not once...alcohol has a way of bringing what is in your head into the real world.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Nov 11, 2012)

DISCLAIMER: I am pro-legalization, and what follows is an observation, not an anti-legalization argument.
___________________________________________

It amuses me to see so many people say it's stupid to make it illegal, because after all, it's just a plant, ugais! You know, because there are NO plants in the world that are bad and can do terrible, terrible things to people. Just none. Right? Right!

Say it shouldn't be illegal because in the grand scheme of things it probably isn't all that bad for you, sure, or that we should be able to do what we want with our bodies, fine. But to say it should be legal merely because it's "just a plant" is just... goofy.

On the "not that bad for you" topic, though, I wish people would realize that saying "Alcohol is worse for you than weed, and it's legal!" is just as much an argument for the legalization of pot as it is an argument for the _criminalization of alcohol_. 

People should stop trying to use silly justifications like that, and stick with "I like getting faded, and I should be allowed to legally."


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## flint757 (Nov 11, 2012)

Disclaimer: I wasn't justifying pot by saying alcohol was worse. I was merely replying to a post that said he observed worse behavior from pot heads rather than alcoholics. .

Completely agree though...


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## Grand Moff Tim (Nov 11, 2012)

You may not have been, but it's an undeniably common argument and has already been brought up in this (and every other similar) thread, haha.


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## flint757 (Nov 11, 2012)

Yeah, the arguments involving alcohol are typically better arguments for making alcohol illegal than anything else for sure. 

Honestly, when it comes to most things if you're doing it in private, all participants are willing (and of age), nobody is getting hurt and it doesn't affect your family or work life I can't see why any activity can be deemed illegal to begin with (within those guidelines that is). 

When it does affect one of those other factors that is when either your family fixes it, the law steps in or you get fired and that should be the end of it. I don't have a problem with people disliking pot or finding it dangerous, but I do have a problem with people getting thrown in jail over it.


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## DTSH (Nov 12, 2012)

The only problem to the counter-argument against the whole "it's just a plant thing" lies in the fact that the government doesn't really legislate against other plants. If they made poison ivy, all those berries your mom told you never to eat, and lily of the valley/hydrangeas/foxgloves/all those flowers your grandmother grows but could make you really sick illegal too, I feel like it'd be a worse argument. 

The real issue here is that legalization changes things. It's been illegal since 1937, an industry has grown up around it, and more than anything else, people are just used to it being illegal. People are sort of okay with good change, but the government seems to hate any form of change. We'll see what happens.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Nov 12, 2012)

DTSH said:


> The only problem to the counter-argument against the whole "it's just a plant thing" lies in the fact that the government doesn't really legislate against other plants.


 








Or in it's (sadly) more recognizable form:






Sure, that's been processed, but I have a feeling you could get in trouble for trafficking a trunk full of the raw leaves, too .



Besides, in a similar vein to the "but alcohol is legal" point I raised earlier, your counter-argument is as much an argument that lily of the valley/hydrangeas/foxgloves/all those flowers your grandmother grows should be illegal as it is that marijuana should be legal.


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## ilyti (Nov 12, 2012)

I'm late on this but did anyone notice 



> However, the parts of the amendment related to individual behavior will go into effect as soon as Governor Hickenlooper certifies the results of the vote,





> _Hickenlooper _





That's all I have to add..


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## Lives Once Abstract (Nov 13, 2012)

And the whole "marijuana isn't bad for you" fight that almost every pot head throws out,is complete bull shit. Its been proven that THC has medcinal purposes but no scientist/and or doctor has ever said that smoke is good for your lungs to inhale. Other things can be more harmful sure, but your lungs were made to take in oxygen. Not smoke... of any kind... Thus being said, it still doesn't stop me from smoking weed or tobacky


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## flint757 (Nov 13, 2012)

Well THC isn't all that bad for you, but yeah smoke of any kind isn't particularly good for your lungs. 

That being said we can logically conclude that pot brownies are just fine.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Nov 13, 2012)

flint757 said:


> That being said we can logically conclude that pot brownies are just fine.



In fact, the pot part is probaby better for you than the brownie part .


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## BIG ND SWEATY (Nov 13, 2012)

Lives Once Abstract said:


> And the whole "marijuana isn't bad for you" fight that almost every pot head throws out,is complete bull shit. Its been proven that THC has medcinal purposes but no scientist/and or doctor has ever said that smoke is good for your lungs to inhale. Other things can be more harmful sure, but your lungs were made to take in oxygen. Not smoke... of any kind... Thus being said, it still doesn't stop me from smoking weed or tobacky


 and thats why there are hundreds of alternatives


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## right_to_rage (Nov 13, 2012)

Like Vaporizing or baking tasty edibles ^


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 13, 2012)

The smoke being good or bad for your lungs is of no consequence. We have cigarettes and fucking cars...

Alcohol can lead to deadly dependence, but we don't get rid of that... There are so many other things that are just as dangerous if not more dangerous that it seems to me a completely moot point to even argue on that basis anymore. 

This is just another case of people wanting to legislate morality now that there is no longer a financial reason to keep it illegal (threat to the lumber industry) and possibly a fear of change.


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## Murmel (Nov 13, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> Alcohol can lead to deadly dependence, but we don't get rid of that... There are so many other things that are just as dangerous if not more dangerous that it seems to me a completely moot point to even argue on that basis anymore.
> 
> .



If alcohol was invented now it would probably get banned. The only reason we aren't getting rid of it now is because it has a very big following, and it brings in tax money.

I'm a bit biased though, because I hate alcohol and its effects.


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## Overtone (Nov 13, 2012)

When was marijuana invented?


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## Murmel (Nov 13, 2012)

It obviously wasn't invented in the same fashion. But we still came up with a use for it.

I don't support the use of any drugs at all, I don't care if they're "safe".


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## flint757 (Nov 13, 2012)

Well technically you'd be wrong since heroin, pot, cocaine, LSD, and many more actually have medicinal purposes. 

What you mean is recreational, but then again that shouldn't really be of anyones concern especially if they are 'safe'.


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## Murdstone (Nov 13, 2012)

flint757 said:


> Well technically you'd be wrong since heroin, pot, cocaine, LSD, and many more actually have medicinal purposes.
> 
> What you mean is recreational, but then again that shouldn't really be of anyones concern especially if they are 'safe'.



All of which come from or are derived from plants too, to add to the plant argument. In fact nearly all classes of schedule I drugs can be derived from plants.


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## Murmel (Nov 13, 2012)

flint757 said:


> Well technically you'd be wrong since heroin, pot, cocaine, LSD, and many more actually have medicinal purposes.
> 
> What you mean is recreational, but then again that shouldn't really be of anyones concern especially if they are 'safe'.



Fine if you use them for medical reasons.

What I have a problem with with drugs/alcohol is that they alter your state of mind.
I just don't get why we should fuck around with shit that has the potential to fuck you up badly.


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## flint757 (Nov 13, 2012)

No, I understand why you personally wouldn't do it or even wouldn't want to associate with people who do or be near the stuff. That makes plenty sense to me from what you have already said. It isn't something everyone wants to do and there are plenty of good arguments to be had there. 

What I can't tell is are you making the argument that it should be illegal or that you just don't get it and would never do it?

I'm not going to pull the argument try it before you knock it either like some people might, given your position, but what I will say is it is impossible to understand the 'why' without trying it first (referring to pot and liquor specifically, but I'm sure the same can be said for most things we encounter in life).


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## Lives Once Abstract (Nov 13, 2012)

I still kind of wonder why I smoke and or drink. I mean, its because of the feeling sure but, why I like it; I dont think I, or anyone else could explain. I guess its kind of like asking someone, "Why do you like mexican food?" You cant explain it any way other than, "I like the taste." If someone were to ask why, that would be stupid. You cant explain why your brain tends to like the receptions your taste buds send when eating mexican food. I mean come on. Its like little kids saying they dont like a food they've never tried. Same goes for people who have a problem with weed who have never smoked. Just MO


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## flint757 (Nov 13, 2012)

Yeah, but that is a bit of a catch 22 in its own right. If someone is against something they can't truly understand until they try, that may be true, but we can't also dismiss the fact that if someone is against it they shouldn't 'have' to try it to have an opinion. I don't have to try heroin to know its bad. Granted it is obvious especially if you've ever observed someone go down that road (they never come back).

FTR I'm an advocate of pot legalization in case people are reading this is an anti-argument.


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## Lives Once Abstract (Nov 13, 2012)

Of course! 

I am in no way saying that anyone should try it for the knowledge perspective. If you want to go ahead. All power to you. But no one should get butt hurt about people smoking and say its a horrible idea and that it completely changes your state of mind when they have never toked up. 

And as you've said Flint, people can smoke and still completely functional and fine. I do not at all agree that marijuana changes your state of mind. I dont think any differently when high. My morals are not at stake as they might be when drunk, or other harder drugs.


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## flint757 (Nov 13, 2012)

Yeah it doesn't really do anything to the mind other then 'sharpen the senses' so to speak. That is as best as I can put it. You are the same, but feelings and thoughts (like funny, happy, sad) are amplified.


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## Nile (Nov 13, 2012)

The only side affect I've noticed from smoking Marijuana for over a year now is that it makes me spend more freely my money on food without worrying. But that's because munchies.


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## BIG ND SWEATY (Nov 13, 2012)

Murmel said:


> What I have a problem with with drugs/alcohol is that they alter your state of mind.
> I just don't get why we should fuck around with shit that has the potential to fuck you up badly.


getting stoned has a 0% chance of doing any kind of harm, except for some possible minor weight gain.


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## Murmel (Nov 14, 2012)

flint757 said:


> No, I understand why you personally wouldn't do it or even wouldn't want to associate with people who do or be near the stuff. That makes plenty sense to me from what you have already said. It isn't something everyone wants to do and there are plenty of good arguments to be had there.
> 
> What I can't tell is are you making the argument that it should be illegal or that you just don't get it and would never do it?
> 
> I'm not going to pull the argument try it before you knock it either like some people might, given your position, but what I will say is it is impossible to understand the 'why' without trying it first (referring to pot and liquor specifically, but I'm sure the same can be said for most things we encounter in life).



I have never tried weed, but I've been drunk a few times. I can actually get why some people struggling with depression become alcoholics, because when I was drunk I didn't give a single fuck about anything.
Most people also get way more sociable when drunk, so a lot of kids especially use it as an excuse to drink. They say they are too shy without alcohol (which in itself is bad, because you're relying on a substance to make connections with others).

So in a sense I can actually "get" alcohol.



BIG ND SWEATY said:


> getting stoned has a 0% chance of doing any kind of harm, except for some possible minor weight gain.



The potential of doing stupid things most likely increases, and it's also often a gateway to heavier drugs.

I'm more opposed to alcohol than weed, because alchohol makes some people loose their judgment compeltely. I haven't heard of anyone getting aggressive because of weed, though I'm sure it has happened.

If I could decide I'd ban them both


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## Semichastny (Nov 14, 2012)

Murmel said:


> The potential of doing stupid things most likely increases, and it's also often a gateway to heavier drugs.



The gateway drug theory has been thoroughly discredited, and even when there wasn't an overwhelming amount of evidence against it it was still based on logical fallacies. The only person I knew who believed it changed their mind when they had to go to classes to get into a substance abuse program.



Murmel said:


> I haven't heard of anyone getting aggressive because of weed, though I'm sure it has happened.



You are implying that Marijuana has the ability to alter a persons mental/emotional state in a way that has never been conclusively proven.



Murmel said:


> If I could decide I'd ban them both


Prohibition of both these substances has been a colossal failure. Why would you want to ban something knowing the amount of harm it would do to society?


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## Murmel (Nov 14, 2012)

Semichastny said:


> You are implying that Marijuana has the ability to alter a persons mental/emotional state in a way that has never been conclusively proven.



If you don't call getting stoned being in an altered state I don't know what is



Semichastny said:


> Prohibition of both these substances has been a colossal failure. Why would you want to ban something knowing the amount of harm it would do to society?


All the rioting/protesting/whatever that would follow just shows how far down the crapper mankind has gone in my opinion.
And as I said, I think alcohol is much worse.

You can go smoke weed all you like now that it's legal, I don't really care because I won't associate with people that do. If there's one thing I've learned it's that you can't argue with potheads


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## Semichastny (Nov 14, 2012)

Murmel said:


> If you don't call getting stoned being in an altered state I don't know what is



You didn't say getting stoned you said getting aggressive because of weed, and that is something that has never been conclusively proven.




Murmel said:


> All the rioting/protesting/whatever that would follow just shows how far down the crapper mankind has gone in my opinion. And as I said, I think alcohol is much worse.



What rioting and protesting?



Murmel said:


> You can go smoke weed all you like now that it's legal, I don't really care because I won't associate with people that do. If there's one thing I've learned it's that you can't argue with potheads


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## Murmel (Nov 14, 2012)

Semichastny said:


> You didn't say getting stoned you said getting aggressive because of weed, and that is something that has never been conclusively proven.



I said someone PROBABLY has become violent from weed sometime, I never said everyone gets. Not everyone becomes violent from alcohol either.

The reason you can't argue with most pot smokers is because they never accept that you just think it's "wrong". Just because it's not directly lethal doesn't mean I have to approve of it.

The only problems I can see coming from taking away alcohol is economical issues, and people getting pissed off about it. Hence why I listed rioting.


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## Fat-Elf (Nov 14, 2012)

BIG ND SWEATY said:


> getting stoned has a 0% chance of doing any kind of harm, except for some possible minor weight gain.



Bullshit, it makes you slow and depressed.


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## Semichastny (Nov 14, 2012)

Murmel said:


> I said someone PROBABLY has become violent from weed sometime, I never said everyone gets. Not everyone becomes violent from alcohol either.



I as well never said a thing about "everyone". The point though is alcohol is well known to have an association with aggression, the same could not be said for marijuana. You imply that marijuana could cause someone to become violent and there is no significant proof of that while alcohol has a large body of research establishing connections between the two.



Murmel said:


> The reason you can't argue with most pot smokers is because they never accept that you just think it's "wrong". Just because it's not directly lethal doesn't mean I have to approve of it.


it's not just that black and white. In society criminals, law-breakers, and gangs are the only civilians who benefit from the illegality of marijuana. Supporting the criminalization of marijuana is de-facto support of welfare for drug dealers and gangs. I think it's "wrong" to give so much money and power to corrupt and amoral people who harm society, but if we stop thinking about the cost before we start thinking about the consequences it will paint a different picture.



Murmel said:


> The only problems I can see coming from taking away alcohol is economical issues, and people getting pissed off about it. Hence why I listed rioting.


I would like to remind you that prohibition was tried here in america and there were MANY more problems that arose from it then just simply protests, riots, and economic issues.


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## AxeHappy (Nov 14, 2012)

Murmel said:


> just shows how far down the crapper mankind has gone in my opinion.




Dude... the entirety of humanity has been getting fucking high on _something_ since the dawn of time.

I don't smoke, but it's mind boggingly backwards to say it should be illegal. If you don't like it (and that's fair, regardless of whether you've tried it or not) then don't do it. Simple as that. Don't stop others from enriching their lives in the way they choose too.


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## Overtone (Nov 14, 2012)

Maybe potheads don't accept your arguments because you haven't given them any good ones. Your view on the harm of prohibition is incredibly limited in its scope and doesn't account for any of history. It's already been mentioned ITT what some of the social costs of marijuana prohibition are... high cost of incarceration, the morality of incarcerating people for such behavior, the deaths and other costs of the drug war, etc.. Prohibition of alcohol in the US had similar effects... from gang wars to people going blind or blowing out their liver by drinking bad moonshine. To suggest that people rioting would be the main downside of prohibition is just way out of touch with reality. The reality is that people will continue the prohibited behavior, a black market will be created, and resources and lives will be wasted in trying to enforce the prohibition. The exception would be for somewhere like N. Korea that is already a police state to begin with. Or maybe somewhere like China or Saudi Arabia where the penalty can be capital punishment, although it's widely known that the upper class in Saudi Arabia does plenty of illegal drinking. Show me one example of prohibition being an effective solution in a "free" country.


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## Overtone (Nov 14, 2012)

It also seems ridiculous to suggest that laws should be made to prevent states of mind deemed to be "wrong."


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## BIG ND SWEATY (Nov 14, 2012)

Fat-Elf said:


> Bullshit, it makes you slow and depressed.


no thats bullshit, iv smoked for years and have seen no decrease in my mental ability and its even helped my depression.


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## Fat-Elf (Nov 14, 2012)

BIG ND SWEATY said:


> no thats bullshit, iv smoked for years and have seen no decrease in my mental ability and its even helped my depression.



Good for you. The people on the other hand I have met are not as lucky.


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## Semichastny (Nov 14, 2012)

There are a decent amount of people who smoke marijuana and are depressed but correlation does not imply causation. That would be a logical fallacy.

"Marijuana use and depression accompany each other more often than you might expect by chance, but there's no clear evidence that marijuana directly causes depression." - Daniel K. Hall-Flavin, MD


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## BIG ND SWEATY (Nov 14, 2012)

Fat-Elf said:


> Good for you. The people on the other hand I have met are not as lucky.


then dont try to say that weed automatically makes you retarded and depressed. those people obviously have some underlying issues that they need to have checked out.


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## Semichastny (Nov 14, 2012)

We could use the same logic to say that wearing clothing that is black causes depression.


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## flint757 (Nov 14, 2012)

Yeah prohibition was a colossal failure. Mind you they had good reason to do it at the time as well. People weren't going home, blowing their paycheck and not paying their bills. However, when they made it illegal they created some of the most violent underground figures one can think of from history. All it did was go from legal to illegal, people still drank. Think of the Great Gatsby. The people in that book are wealthy and it is set in a time period of prohibition. Everybody still drank nonetheless.

Weed in most states is still illegal and a lot of people still do this as well. Instead of honest people getting paid for the product though you have thugs getting all the tax free money. In the gateway drug theory, if it were legal and sold in a store it would no longer be a gateway drug. IMO it can only qualify as a gateway drug because it isn't the only thing a drug dealer sells so logically you have the opportunity to try other things. In a store that'd be impossible. It is important to note that anyone's first 'drug' is qualified as a gateway drug. In some places cocaine is easier to get a hold of than pot so that is not only the gateway drug, but the thing that is also in higher circulation.


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## synrgy (Nov 14, 2012)

I had been trying to stay relatively neutral, here, but due to less-inhibited posts I made during my first year or two on the forum, I'm sure most of you probably already know that I'm something of a habitual user, so.. Fuck it. 

The only reason I bring that up now, is to say that it's pretty much the only thing that staves off my depression. Call it self-medication, if you want..

Side note: For many years, I did try several different legal prescription medications to combat my genetically inherited depression, but all made me feel like something other than (or less than) myself. Herb, on the other hand, allows me to feel like me whilst also taking the edge off, such that I can actually tolerate my fellow humans on a day to day basis without wanting to curl up into a fetal position and die. 

I can state pretty unequivocally that weed doesn't cause depression. 

Genetic inheritances.. Chemical imbalances.. Social or economical hardships.. Those commercials Sarah McLaughlin does for animals or starving kids or whatever.. LIFE IN GENERAL.. These are things that cause depression.


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## Semichastny (Nov 14, 2012)

synrgy said:


> The only reason I bring that up now, is to say that it's pretty much the only thing that staves off my depression. Call it self-medication, if you want..



I am happy to hear that you found something that works, not everyone can say the same thing.


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## Nile (Nov 14, 2012)

flint757 said:


> In the gateway drug theory, if it were legal and sold in a store it would no longer be a gateway drug. IMO it can only qualify as a gateway drug because it isn't the only thing a drug dealer sells so logically you have the opportunity to try other things. In a store that's be impossible. It is important to note that anyone's first 'drug' is qualified as a gateway drug. In some places cocaine is easier to get a hold of than pot so that is not only the gateway drug, but the thing that is also in higher circulation.



Thank you. I have been looking for the words to tell people what the gateway part actually implies.


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## Lives Once Abstract (Nov 15, 2012)

Murmel said:


> If you don't call getting stoned being in an altered state I don't know what is



If what you said ^ is true, You could easilly go to say that because tobacco gives you a buzz and therefore something you dont feel normally feel, its an altered state of mind. As well as being "horny" or craving sex lol. No...



Fat-Elf said:


> Bullshit, it makes you slow and depressed.



What...? Have you ever smoked? Im not trying to be a smart asshole im serious, have you smoked?



Semichastny said:


> I as well never said a thing about "everyone". The point though is alcohol is well known to have an association with aggression, the same could not be said for marijuana. You imply that marijuana could cause someone to become violent and there is no significant proof of that while alcohol has a large body of research establishing connections between the two.
> 
> 
> it's not just that black and white. In society criminals, law-breakers, and gangs are the only civilians who benefit from the illegality of marijuana. Supporting the criminalization of marijuana is de-facto support of welfare for drug dealers and gangs. I think it's "wrong" to give so much money and power to corrupt and amoral people who harm society, but if we stop thinking about the cost before we start thinking about the consequences it will paint a different picture.
> ...



I have been trying to say this to people for years. And not all of the people who sell weed are thugs mind you... And I the way prohibition turned out with alcohol will be similar to the effect of what will happen when (yes when) weed is decriminalized nationally. During prohibition the amount of people who consumed alcohol rose ENORMOUSLY. Once it was repealed the percentage of drinkers dropped drastically. I think less people would smoke weed if there wasnt a risk.



BIG ND SWEATY said:


> no thats bullshit, iv smoked for years and have seen no decrease in my mental ability and its even helped my depression.



Yes. Thank you. You would be surprised [Fat Elf] how many people smoke and become more lively. People who you thought to be in deep states of depression. 

And whether you believe this or not; Its been scientifically proven that smiling and laughter are healthy for you in many ways. One of which would be depression. Being that the more you smile and laugh, you mentally become more content with life. And, well, happy. I can say this for myself and every other pot smoker in the world, marijuana makes you laugh. Laughing is smiling on steroids. When I am regularly smoking weed Im so much happier than i would be when Im not. Dont get me wrong, I do not depend on it, and I can be happy without it. But why wouldn't you WANT to be as happy as you could be? That puzzles me.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Nov 15, 2012)

Lives Once Abstract said:


> If what you said ^ is true, You could easilly go to say that because tobacco gives you a buzz and therefore something you dont feel normally feel, its an altered state of mind. As well as being "horny" or craving sex lol. No...




Wait wait wait... are you actually arguing that weed _doesn't_ cause an altered state of mind? If that's true, I need to get a hold of my buddy back home and find out what that stuff actually was, because it sure enough did.


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## flint757 (Nov 15, 2012)

Well it doesn't alter the mind in the same sense that LSD, heroin, shroom's and the like do. It is a mild hallucinogen so it is in the same category, but I've never met someone who genuinely hallucinated while high on pot.

At best it just made things better: food tastes better, music sounds better, sleeping feels better, and EVERYTHING is hilarious. I guess it depends on what people mean when they say "altered state of mind".


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## Necris (Nov 15, 2012)

^ By your own description of it's effects it alters your perception, if that isn't an altered state of mind I can't help but wonder what the dividing line is between an altered and unaltered state.


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## Lives Once Abstract (Nov 15, 2012)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Wait wait wait... are you actually arguing that weed _doesn't_ cause an altered state of mind? If that's true, I need to get a hold of my buddy back home and find out what that stuff actually was, because it sure enough did.



Yes. Just because you may feel a little different doesn't mean its an altered state of mind. When I get off a roller coaster I tend to feel drunk from my body experiencing g forces. I have to sit down for a bit because im very dizzy. But my state of mind has not changed. I still think the same about things. And my point once again, my moral values are never at stake when high.

EDIT: I understand its not the same, but, my mental status is still the same as it was when I had not been smoking weed

Altered mental state - definition of Altered mental state in the Medical dictionary - by the Free Online Medical Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
Altered Mental Status: Check Your Symptoms and Signs With the Symptom Checker by MedicineNet.com


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## flint757 (Nov 15, 2012)

^^^
Based on the definitions I actually think it qualifies quite well as altering your state of mind, but I get your point. You are saying you don't do something just because you are high. You are not compromised as a person.

It doesn't make you hallucinate though (or at least it never has for me). I have gotten extremely paranoid before though.



Necris said:


> ^ By your own description of it's effects it alters your perception, if that isn't an altered state of mind I can't help but wonder what the dividing line is between an altered and unaltered state.



Yeah I suppose it does.  It isn't to the extreme though like many other drugs are capable of causing was my main point, but I'm drawing arbitrary lines if I go there.


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## Lives Once Abstract (Nov 15, 2012)

Under the definitions in those links, I have never experienced those symptoms. And I do understand that people react to it differently.


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## Necris (Nov 15, 2012)

Lives Once Abstract said:


> Yes. Just because you may feel a little different doesn't mean its an altered state of mind. When I get off a roller coaster I tend to feel drunk from my body experiencing g forces. I have to sit down for a bit because im very dizzy. But my state of mind has not changed. I still think the same about things. And my point once again, my moral values are never at stake when high.
> 
> EDIT: I understand its not the same, but, my mental status is still the same as it was when I had not been smoking weed
> 
> ...





Lives Once Abstract said:


> If what you said ^ is true, You could easilly go to say that because tobacco gives you a buzz and therefore something you dont feel normally feel, its an altered state of mind.


Per the definition you just gave, yes you are in an altered state of mind at that point. It is a state of awareness that differs from your normal awareness.
A massive change in thought patterns, cognitive ability, morals etc. is not required for something to be an altered state of mind.

If you feel happier after smoking weed, as you described earlier, that could be described as a change in perception. That is an altered mental state.
If everything is hilarious suddenly while you're high, that could be described as poor regulation of emotion, which is mentioned in your second link, or a change in perception, since I doubt you perceive everything as being funny under normal circumstances.
If you eat more while high as opposed to when you haven't smoked that is a change in behavior. If you do it because the food tastes better, it can be argued that a change in perception while you're high has caused a change in your behavior.

Just because the term "Altered Mental State" may come with some baggage because it can be applied to some of the effects of much more harmful drugs doesn't mean you get to pick and choose when it applies.


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## TaylorMacPhail (Nov 15, 2012)

Brainwashed. 

Idk about you, but I don't think I could keep my cool trying to talk with this lost lost woman.

On topic, congratz to Colorado and Washington, it's about time. Only a matter of time before the rest of the US gets it done, and then maybe Stephen Harper will follow his "idols" and do the same (in about 10 years lol jk). At least for us, the age will be 19 and not 21 should the same law pass   

Where I live at least, it's not so much I'm worried about getting busted, it's the whole social stigma and subsequently the paranoia I get from it being illegal and all the close-minded people who like to bash on the drug. I'm already somewhat of a paranoid and self-conscious person so NO, the weed itself doesn't make me paranoid


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## Adam Of Angels (Nov 15, 2012)

^ People who are already paranoid should usually not smoke weed.


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## TaylorMacPhail (Nov 15, 2012)

And using the "Alcohol and tobacco are legal but are way worse for you than marijuana" can certainly be used to promote the prohibition of those substances, but what most people, myself included, use the argument for is to expose the HYPOCRISY of the government and to show that legality DOES NOT equal "good" (morally or health-wise).


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## TaylorMacPhail (Nov 15, 2012)

Adam Of Angels said:


> ^ People who are already paranoid should usually not smoke weed.



Okay I'll stop right now I promise!

But seriously, how do you know that the whole reason paranoia is correlated with marijuana is not BECAUSE of what I just said about it being illegal?

As a user, but also a Psychology student, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.


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## Adam Of Angels (Nov 15, 2012)

TaylorMacPhail said:


> Okay I'll stop right now I promise!



I won't urge you to stop, or anything, I'm just saying that somebody with a chemical issue (slight or not) would do best to not tinker with their chemicals further. Some people who are naturally paranoid do slightly better when smoking, so who knows.


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## TaylorMacPhail (Nov 15, 2012)

Adam Of Angels said:


> I won't urge you to stop, or anything, I'm just saying that somebody with a chemical issue (slight or not) would do best to not tinker with their chemicals further. Some people who are naturally paranoid do slightly better when smoking, so who knows.



So you're implying mental properties, paranoia in this case, can't be influenced from social factors (legality) both consciously and subconsciously and that what you are born with and what you ingest both from yourself or the environment, are the only factors that affect the chemicals in your brain?  

A prime example of how the conscious mind can influence the chemicals and neuro-plasticity of the brain being the placebo effect.

But I appreciate your concern over my health


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## Grand Moff Tim (Nov 15, 2012)

TaylorMacPhail said:


> So you're implying mental properties, paranoia in this case, can't be influenced from social factors (legality) both consciously and subconsciously and that what you are born with and what you ingest both from yourself or the environment, are the only factors that affect the chemicals in your brain?



No, he wasn't implying that at all. He was saying one thing paranoia can be caused by, not that that one thing is the _only_ thing it can be caused by. That's just a silly conclusion to draw from what he said.


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## Lives Once Abstract (Nov 15, 2012)

Necris said:


> Per the definition you just gave, yes you are in an altered state of mind at that point. It is a state of awareness that differs from your normal awareness.
> A massive change in thought patterns, cognitive ability, morals etc. is not required for something to be an altered state of mind.
> 
> If you feel happier after smoking weed, as you described earlier, that could be described as a change in perception. That is an altered mental state.
> ...



Alright, fair enough. But, will say this, when I said Im happier when regularly smoking I didn't mean I smoke then while Im high Im happy, which yes I am but, I meant in general at all times. Not just when high. 

I guess I looked at the term "altered mental status" as a more drastic change than what it could, and sometimes is considered. I apologize.  Thanks for helpin me to understand that without being a douche haha.


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## Adam Of Angels (Nov 15, 2012)

TaylorMacPhail said:


> So you're implying mental properties, paranoia in this case, can't be influenced from social factors (legality) both consciously and subconsciously and that what you are born with and what you ingest both from yourself or the environment, are the only factors that affect the chemicals in your brain?
> 
> A prime example of how the conscious mind can influence the chemicals and neuro-plasticity of the brain being the placebo effect.
> 
> But I appreciate your concern over my health



No, I'm not implying that, thank you.


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