# Songwriting and Chord Progressions



## MorbidAddiction (Feb 6, 2011)

Hey,

Don't know if this is the right section to post in... I'm attempting to get back into songwriting, haven't done so for awhile.

My problem is, after writing one riff I generally get stuck adding to it to form a song (or begin a structure). This is how I used to write but its not working for me... has anyone else experienced this?

Also, is there any software/website or book/media out there to help with building chord progressions? I get stuck a lot on what chord to go to next and am very interested in finding out more about chord intervals and relationships (like resolves and why a certain chord interval sounds the way it does etc) rather than just playing random chords until finding the sound I'm after. 

For instance, I'm working on a section at the moment which goes

cm - F# - F#add11+ - F# (the add11 is created by the voicing which resolves back to the F#)

And I haven't a clue where to go next, the scale I believe is the 'half-whole tone in C' and I don't particularly want to go back to the cm.

Also, I'm only just beginning to move from tabs to notes (like from fret numbers to names of notes etc) so I'm 'half' with most of the theory. And new to the whole chord prog. theory with the I, ii, VI etc - haven't found a site that explains exactly how the numbers relate to the chords in the scale - my understanding at current is that the numbers relate to the notes of the scale starting from the root but from there do you just build chords using the notes in the scale anyway you like, or is there a set chord that I and ii refers to I think I read somewhere that I = major/ i = minor chords? 

Thanks,


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## Tomo009 (Feb 6, 2011)

Yes, you basically have that correct, chord I would be the tonic major chord of the scale. i Would be minor. 

The confusing part though comes with the additions, major is actually usually referenced with a small triangle after a capitol numeral, without it is actually a dominant chord, but people are usually lazy and don't put the triangles in.


The major scale for instance is usually written I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, vii

However the I and IV are major not dominant and the vii is a diminished triad, not a minor triad.


(All this was assuming you know how to construct said chords from the root note.)


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Feb 6, 2011)

First, my book recommendations:

Amazon.com: Tonal Harmony (9780072852608): Stefan Kostka, Dorothy Payne: Books

Amazon.com: Materials and Techniques of Twentieth Century Music (9780135608302): Stefan Kostka: Books

And this is the book my songwriting class is using. Seems alright so far:
Amazon.com: Craft and Business of Songwriting 3rd Edition (Craft & Business of Songwriting) (9781582974668): John Braheny: Books

-----------------------------------------------

Next, chords. Here it is in a nutshell:

In Western tonal music, we use the major scale as a basis, or at least a reference, for all of our music. From the major scale, we harmonize the notes at the third and fifth to get triads.







Note that each note in each chord comes from the major scale that is in the key we're working in. The major scale's harmonization creates a model that can be followed with the minor scale:






I've filled in the accidentals there, but if you're writing in the key of C minor, obviously, you'd use the key signature of C minor:






You can see by now that capital letters are major, small are minor, and those with "°" are diminished. We're about to add another kind of triad to the equation, and add some more fun stuff, too. To make the chord progressions in minor keys sound stronger, some dudes from about 400 years ago started raising the seventh scale degree in minor keys to get something called the harmonic minor. When harmonized in thirds, the harmonic minor creates some new chords: III becomes III+, v becomes V, and VII becomes vii°.






III+ is an augmented triad. It actually doesn't see much use, so most minor progressions involving the three use III, regardless of whether V and vii° have the raised seventh.

Adding another note above the fifth when harmonizing the major and minor scales gives you these:











The seventh chords. As you can see, we have more symbols. "&#8710;" is what Tomo009 was talking about, and it means "major seventh". "7" implies the interval of a minor seventh on top of a triad - "m7" is obviously a minor seventh chord, and "7" is a dominant seventh chord. "ø7" is the symbol for the m7b5 chord. In classical parlance, "ø7" is pronounced "half-diminished seventh". °7 is a diminished chord with a diminished seventh on top - a unique chord that we call the "fully-diminished chord". I don't have it pictured, but a minor triad with a major seventh would be something like "i&#8710;" - a minor-major seventh chord.

In the minor example, the i and III assume the form they would take in natural minor. You can use B&#9838; on both to get i&#8710; and III+&#8710;, but it's rarer. That's just the convention I was taught.

As far as progressions go, this should help you out:












This is just basic diatonic chord progression stuff. It can get more complicated and enter other realms of tonality, but I figured I'd let you absorb this for a bit. Crazy shit comes in next post.


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## Tomo009 (Feb 6, 2011)

Great post as usual, I would have gone into a bit more detail if I searched symbols for diminished etc. But maybe it's best I didn't as you picked up on my stupid mistake and I could have dug myself a hole with the whole triangle thing.

Now I've learned something too adn it makes perfect sense. (Dominant triad )


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## Explorer (Feb 6, 2011)

I own a few books by Rikky Rooksby, all of which break down one particular area of composition. 

The Songwriting Sourcebook: How to Turn Chords Into Great Songs is a great book, and really shows the nuts and bolts of how chords can be put together for different effects. I own a lot of books on songwriting and composition, and this is the one I continually go back to for chord progression ideas. He also has one on riffs. 

I promise you, if you go through the book from front to back, you'll be a better musician for it.


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## atimoc (Feb 6, 2011)

Rooksby's books are great, I initially got 'How to write songs on guitar' and liked it so much that I ended up buying 'How to write songs on keyboards' as well even though my keyboard usage is limited to noodling... He writes things in an easy-to-understand manner and there are lots of good progression examples. Also, it was nice to see that the two books had surprisingly little overlap in content, I have to check out the book Explorer mentioned as well.


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## MorbidAddiction (Feb 6, 2011)

Thanks guys, I'm going to look into those books. I also noticed Arranging Songs by Rikky Rooksby, is that worth a read? 
Amazon.com: Arranging Songs (Book) (9780879308964): Rikky Rooksby: Books

I have been finding it difficult to go from limited 'tab' knowledge into full blown music theory and I've done some of this stuff at uni and half the time it still goes over my head.

I'm blown away at the response here, thanks again. Any further info or advice/references would be much appreciated!


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## Explorer (Feb 6, 2011)

"Arranging Songs" is entirely devoted to taking a complete song and devising the arrangement for that song. After talking about the subject broadly, it focuses, chapter by chapter, on acoustic guitar, electric guitar, guitar effects, and then (in the same chapter) keyboard, bass and drums. There then follows a chapter on orchestral instruments. 

It doesn't have anything to do with writing a song, developing the chord progressions, or other primary matters. 

I have other books on orchestration and on how to best build mixes, so I've never bought this particular Rooksby book. I don't like to recommend things I've never read completely, so I'll pass on telling you that it's a must-have. Given what you were asking about, though, it definitely appears to be focused on a different area. 

If you're going to get a few books, here would be my suggestions:


The Songwriting Sourcebook: How to Turn Chords Into Great Songs by Rikky Rooksby
Melody in Songwriting: Tools and Techniques for Writing Hit Songs by Jack Perricone
Lyrics: Writing Better Words for Your Songs by Rikky Rooksby

Get some blank books to write lyric ideas into. I use a few sized of Moleskine notebooks, both the tiny pocket-size ones for writing at odd moments, and the larger ones, to be able to devote a larger page to a verse or two, in order to be able to play with the structure. I always leave the left page blank, so that I can expand the right page work onto it. 

A couple of decent rhyming dictionaries are a necessity, but pay off in the long run. Here's a few I own:


The Complete Rhyming Dictionary: Including The Poet's Craft Book by Clement Wood and Ronald J. Bogus
The Penguin Rhyming Dictionary by Rosalind Fergusson

And, of course, a good miniature recorder to sing/scat/play into, even your crappiest ideas, so you can refer back to them later. Sing that melody line, or lyrics which occurred to you while listening to something else, or that bassline which caught your attention while grocery shopping. 

Tape/memory is cheap, so don't fuck up on through false economy. 

Wow! You had a simple question about chord progressions, and I had to toss all this on you! *laugh* Good on you if any of this is helpful, mate. 

Good luck!


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## MorbidAddiction (Feb 8, 2011)

So, I have this really wrong - Trying to figure out all the chords in the half-whole tone in C to much around with progressions. My chord making abilities aren't great... for now I load up GP5 and load the scale and make chords in the board out of the notes in the scale 

I wasn't sure if you're meant to stick to a formula of root+3rd+5th to make the chords for progression, or pretty much anything that resembles a chord of some sort.

Doing this I can get:

1(C) = [cm, C]
2(C#) = [A, F#] (which I don't think is right since the root is C#
3(D#) = [d#m, D#]
4(E) = [C, A] (once again I think is wrong
5(F#) = [f#m, F#]
6(G) = [D#, C] (same again
7(A) = [am, A]
8(A#) = [F#, D#] (same again

But I can also make c#m/5- on C# etc but I wasn't sure if that's correct... but just thinking about it isn't that diminished? All these chords I've used GP5 to name and sometimes I'm not sure about it. 

Thanks,


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## zeppelinrock34 (Feb 8, 2011)

MorbidAddiction said:


> So, I have this really wrong - Trying to figure out all the chords in the half-whole tone in C to much around with progressions. My chord making abilities aren't great... for now I load up GP5 and load the scale and make chords in the board out of the notes in the scale
> 
> I wasn't sure if you're meant to stick to a formula of root+3rd+5th to make the chords for progression, or pretty much anything that resembles a chord of some sort.
> 
> ...



A lot of those chords are just inversions, so they probably are named correctly. 

I.E. 

F# has a C# as the 5th of the chord (five notes up in the scale) so even though it has a C# as the lowest note, the notes that make up that chord are still the notes of an F# major chord (F#, A#, C#)


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Feb 8, 2011)

Here's a hint: the h/w octatonic scale is completely symmetrical. Because of this, you have just a few chords to worry about. There is a recurring pattern within the scale, and the following notes will have the following chord possibilities:

(The scale - C Db Eb E F# G A Bb)

C, Eb, F#, A = M, m, ø7, °7, M(b5)
Db, E, G, Bb = °7

Whatever applies to C also applies to Eb, F#, and A. Whatever applies to Db applies to E, G, and Bb. Simple enough. This diagram shows the process up to the seventh. Further extensions are possible, but you can figure that out on your own.







A thread I made on this scale: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/music-theory-lessons-techniques/133908-show-me-some-octatonic.html


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