# Elbow Picking



## Quikblade (Jan 8, 2013)

Been scrutinizing my technique lately and I notice that I tend to always pick from the wrist but never from the elbow. Ill put this down to me being self taught when it comes to picking as I was only taught classical guitar.

So Ive been wondering what techniques are easier when picked from the elbow? 

So far ive been trying to adjust for general chugging, tremolo picking and I'm gonna take a guess that sweep picking might improve done from the elbow? Am I right and is there anything else I should consider?

Thanks


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## rchrd_le (Jan 8, 2013)

I used to play from the elbow and it always tired me out (especially in tremolos and sweeps) I say wrist is the way to go brother.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jan 8, 2013)

Pickin from the elbow is actually bad technique. All "super" level shredders play from the wrist. Watch videos of shawn lane, batio, etc...


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## Lagtastic (Jan 8, 2013)

Another vote against elbow picking. Wrist picking is the way to go for endurance, and less chance of hurting yourself. Some players add a small amount of wrist turn, similar to opening a doorknob but must less twist than that, especially during techniques where that is comfortable. It's really about what is comfortable for you, but elbow picking is not as reliable.


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## Max Dread (Jan 8, 2013)

Lagtastic said:


> Another vote against elbow picking. Wrist picking is the way to go for endurance, and less chance of hurting yourself. Some players add a small amount of wrist turn, similar to opening a doorknob but must less twist than that, especially during techniques where that is comfortable. It's really about what is comfortable for you, but elbow picking is not as reliable.



Lagtastic is the devil! 666 posts and 6 thanks. 

I'll echo what's been said here. After many years of picking from the elbow (I'm self taught) I've spent the last few months re-learning my technique and changing it to the wrist picking. Still a work in progress but really getting there now. 

Picking from the elbow = you'll get knackered quickly and could end up causing yourself an injury.


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## viesczy (Jan 8, 2013)

As my technique progressed, my motion minimalized to the point where it is basically my wrist adjusting my right's placement for string changes only. 

Marty Friedman gets a good amount of speed down & his technique is BAFFLING to me. 

As for Shawn Lane, never understood the love for him. Buried in effects and much of his work was simply unimpressive drills to my ears. The worst money spent I spent was on his instructional tapes and Powers of Ten. I heard all the hype about him and when I finally got his stuff it was behind his effects and not really anything I hadn't heard/done/studied before with my guitar instructor when we worked in the various jazz genres. Could he play any whiter? 

Derek


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## tedtan (Jan 8, 2013)

As others have said, picking from the wrist is a perfectly fine way to pick and is probably preferable to picking from the elbow.

Having said that, I will also point out that picking from the elbow is not inherently any more likely to cause injury or hinder your playing. In fact, some players have made it work pretty well for them over their careers. Here are a couple of videos showing Vinnie Moore picking, and you'll notice that he is usually picking from the elbow for the faster alternate picking passages.


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## Quikblade (Jan 9, 2013)

Aliright, it seems there isnt anything wrong with what im doing then. 

I seemed to get the idea from a few posts id been reading that picking from the elbow may help me hold the pick at a more consistent angle.

But if everyone is advocating wrist picking im more then happy to continue playing that way. I never really looked into proper picking technique when i started playing electric so i guess im just lucky I seem to have picked it up correctly. 

Ive always considered my picking technique to be inferior to my fretting so just having a bit of a self evaluation of it atm.

Thanks everyone.


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## tedtan (Jan 9, 2013)

Its normal for your fretting hand to develop before your picking hand, so don't sweat that. Just work on refining what you are currently doing - smaller, more controlled picking movements.


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## SirMyghin (Jan 9, 2013)

Quikblade said:


> Aliright, it seems there isnt anything wrong with what im doing then.
> 
> I seemed to get the idea from a few posts id been reading that picking from the elbow may help me hold the pick at a more consistent angle.
> 
> ...



As ted said, the pick hand will take longer to develope. 

As an aside, there is no 'proper' picking technique. What is proper is what works for you. That is why we have so many damned picking techniques  

I like the classical approach for its ease of incorporating hybrid picking, but I like a more open hand as I find it is less tense.

What you are talking about when keeping a more consistent angle does not sound like elbow picking to me at all. I pick from my wrist but do not anchor heavily, this when when I switch strings (well if more than 1) I reposition my wrist by moving my arm. This kind of makes it work across the strings diagonally, but keeps my picking consistent.

Elbow picking is more typically moving your whole forearm to pick, and keeping a fixed wrist. This is great if it works for you, and can be faster, as larger muscles contract faster, but as you are moving from a hinge much farther away control becomes the big issue. It is harder to make the minute/precise movements you will need. If you can pull it off though, all the power to you.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jan 9, 2013)

viesczy said:


> As my technique progressed, my motion minimalized to the point where it is basically my wrist adjusting my right's placement for string changes only.
> 
> Marty Friedman gets a good amount of speed down & his technique is BAFFLING to me.
> 
> ...



This isnt a thread about musical tastes though, just picking technique and Lane is hands down much much faster and cleaner than just about anyone out there. 



tedtan said:


> As others have said, picking from the wrist is a perfectly fine way to pick and is probably preferable to picking from the elbow.
> 
> Having said that, *I will also point out that picking from the elbow is not inherently any more likely to cause injury or hinder your playing. *In fact, some players have made it work pretty well for them over their careers. Here are a couple of videos showing Vinnie Moore picking, and you'll notice that he is usually picking from the elbow for the faster alternate picking passages.



I used to pick from my elbow, switched to my wrist and I can play much faster now and with more control. Vinnie Moore is great and all but he's really not that fast compared to Lane, who picked from the wrist.




Quikblade said:


> Aliright, it seems there isnt anything wrong with what im doing then.
> 
> I seemed to get the idea from a few posts id been reading that picking from the elbow may help me hold the pick at a more consistent angle.
> 
> ...



Yeah stick with the wrist man!


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## SP1N3SPL1TT3R (Jan 9, 2013)

I use my elbow if I'm doing triplets (think about it). Like the one part of Raining Blood. I use my elbow + wrist if I tremolo pick chords, that use 3+ strings. Is that improper technique?


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## Maniacal (Jan 9, 2013)

Wrist all the way.


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## 27duuude (Jan 9, 2013)

I use my fingers and wrist. I get really accurate leads with my fingers and use my wrist for fast chugging and tremolo picking. Using your elbow can lead to problems if you push yourself too far. Its ok if your just strumming slow chords but fast stuff will hurt your elbow after long periods of time.


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## Yo_Wattup (Jan 9, 2013)

SP1N3SPL1TT3R said:


> I use my elbow if I'm doing triplets (think about it). Like the one part of Raining Blood. I use my elbow + wrist if I tremolo pick chords, that use 3+ strings. Is that improper technique?



Why do so many people call sixteenth note gallops triplets?

Speaking of slayer, Jeff Hanneman uses his elbow instead of his wrist.


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## Maniacal (Jan 9, 2013)

Because its quicker than saying sixteenth note triplets, plus people usually know what you're talking about even though it isn't technically correct.


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## Max Dread (Jan 9, 2013)

Yo_Wattup said:


> Why do so many people call sixteenth note gallops triplets?



Because it's groups of three notes....:

dududun
dududun
dududun
dududun

etc etc.

Don't get me wrong. I know it is a gallop and that triplets are completely different. But if someone does not know or understand music theory, but has have heard the term "triplet" before, you can see why they might think the term applies to what we know is a "gallop". 

Anyway - back on to elbows etc!


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## viesczy (Jan 9, 2013)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> This isnt a thread about musical tastes though, just picking technique and Lane is hands down much much faster and cleaner than just about anyone out there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Agreed about picking from the wrist is "better" for speed as there is less movement. That is the more efficient technique for sure.

But WOW, all  &  about Shawn huh? Only mentioned him second after he (and MAB) was referenced by Stealth . 



^if that impresses you, great. Is a great example of Shawn w/o effects. 

Derek


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## karjim (Jan 10, 2013)

Oh man, you choose a video from a guy who were drunk at 3 in the morning, evrybody has the right to put shit out of a crappy strat at 3 am 
Try this my friend at 4'10 and tell me this guy is not a monster player without feeling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJzS4zGbS-o
I bet you can run a long time to grab that intensity and this beauty from a guitar.
"Shawn had one the best technique in the world and he showed me that even if you wanna play really fast, must build your licks and stay musical." 
Guthrie Govan
"This guy is insane and so beautiful, he can do with one hand which I can't do with two"
Paul Gilbert

Derek you're wrong 'cause you didn"t see the right shawn lane, it's not your fault, try my link at 4'10 after this insane bass solo from Mr Hellborg. Not his ultimate speed but one his best improve on a theme


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## vstealth (Jan 10, 2013)

I sort of play both, using my wrist like 95% of the time but when practicing my bands setlist, if i get tired halfway through a song ill start using my arm, on a v its much easier too because of how you leave your arm on the upperhorn. There is no right and wrong, do whatever is comfortable to you.


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## karjim (Jan 10, 2013)

Bleed from Meshu : DoubleCroche- Croche- Croche and no Triplet- Croche 
I don't know how we say in english sorry
And damn I was in the same situation last year, 12 years playing with the elbow, 30 now, and no one told me, son of a b$"# !
I play Tennis too and has no problem when I was a kid. This stupid thrash technique destroyed my arm and gave me a serious tendinitis "Tennis Elbow". Not suffering with my guitar but couldn't play tennis anymore 
One year to relearn, it's very difficult and frustrating . I am now less faster than last year 'cause my wrist don't want to play that fast.But fuck that attack and this precison I can feel every day. It's growing on and that's awesome
I was super fast with my elbow but it was doomed, I couldn't play cleaner. Back on my steps to jump farer. 
Thanks to Paul Gilbert and his 'little" student Bucket, best picking teachers ever !


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## Megaikke (Jan 17, 2013)

Wrist all the way, never elbow!!! As Karjim mentioned it can cause horrible tennis elbow which I have experienced. F$%£ing horrible feeling not being able to pick up the guitar during the healing process. Avoid at all costs! How Marty has not injured himself is beyond me, must be a alien i guess...


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## Danukenator (Jan 17, 2013)

A lesser know improve by Shawn Lane. This is probably the fastest I've ever seen him play. Watch his wrist.


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## m3l-mrq3z (Jan 18, 2013)

John Petrucci, MAB, Rusty Cooley, Steve Morse, Vinnie Moore .... there are many players out there that involve their elbow when playing really fast. I have been playing with a mixture of elbow, thumb and wrist picking for 8 years and never had tendonitis or the like ...


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## Andromalia (Jan 18, 2013)

Lack of Ihsahn reference in a picking topic is disturbing.


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## Yo_Wattup (Jan 18, 2013)

Maniacal said:


> Because its quicker than saying sixteenth note triplets, plus people usually know what you're talking about even though it isn't technically correct.



Fender is quicker to say than Ibanez, ima say that instead. <<<check out my fender RGA7 over there... 

That's how stupid it sounds to me...


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## Maniacal (Jan 18, 2013)

Good logic


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## Adam Of Angels (Jan 18, 2013)

Yo_Wattup said:


> Fender is quicker to say than Ibanez, ima say that instead. <<<check out my fender RGA7 over there...
> 
> That's how stupid it sounds to me...




The difference is, somebody will think you're talking about Fender - they won't know you're talking about Ibanez


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## karjim (Jan 18, 2013)

It's a very interested thread and I have few questions more about picking techniques.
Obviously there's 3 ways for picking
Elbow
Wrist
Thumb
I can't afford just playing with the wrist, I have to mix with thumb technique( the hardest) or elbow (not very precise for upstrokes compared to thumb attack)
I wanna have this P Guilbert/Buckethead picking technique and I'm a little lost. I broke my wrist like they do and try to accurate my up strokes with strict alternative picking exercises at low tempo.
But my thumb do a lot of part of the job and I'm not sure this is the good way....
I have the feeling that I miss something atm. 
Any advice from alternative picking gods ?


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## m3l-mrq3z (Jan 18, 2013)

Ever thought that Paul Gilbert and Buckethead are tall guys with long fingers with different musical backgrounds? Find a technique that suits YOU.


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## karjim (Jan 18, 2013)

Bucket was a Paul's student, you can see how their right hands have the same technique. The tall was just a coincidence.
The student went even farer that the master
Wrist broken, fingers pulled-in and the same crazy wrist attack. I'm not talking about speed just picking attack
I've never seen other guitarists playin that special tightness staccato on high strings...well maybe Tosin now but he doesn't count 
Nothing suits you at first time, it's not clothes! You have to learn and do some efforts.
Otherwise I would use my left hand's thumb for the low string like in 1999 when I was a beginner.


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## m3l-mrq3z (Jan 18, 2013)

Tosin's technique is not as strong as Buckethead's. Come on, dude...


Paul Gilbert and Buckethead have both long fingers. Besides, it makes sense that Buckethead has the same technique, him being a former student of Paul.

I am always irritated by people saying "OMG I want to play like John Petrucci, I imitate his picking technique". Take 10 guitar players. Analize their right hands. 10 different picking techniques.


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## Santuzzo (Jan 20, 2013)

m3l-mrq3z said:


> Take 10 guitar players. Analize their right hands. 10 different picking techniques.



 agreed

It's good to experiment with different picking techniques, that's all part of the process of finding out what works best for YOU. 
But in the end you have to choose whichever technique works best for YOU not for Gilbert, Lane, Malmsteen, Petrucci, etc.


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## ittoa666 (Jan 20, 2013)

I go with the thumb mixed with the wrist, kind of like Malmsteen. This video is the best example. Little to no motion at all.


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## Adam Of Angels (Jan 20, 2013)

I'm not his biggest fan, but basically, whatever the fuck Yngwie does works, so you'd do well to study his picking technique


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## Adam Of Angels (Jan 20, 2013)

Also, check out Jani (ex-Sonata Arctica) - he seems to have a perfect combination of wrist, thumb, and elbow, and his picking is super consistent and quick - starting at 1:19:


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## m3l-mrq3z (Jan 20, 2013)

^That guy played some sick solos in SA's debut. He was only 19 at the time, but there is this solo where he plays 16.5 notes per second. Totally insane.


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## Adam Of Angels (Jan 20, 2013)

He's one of my heroes - he played constistently awesome solos all the way from Ecliptica through Unia, after which he left the band. New guy is awesome, but does not have the character and flavor that Jani has.


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## SirMyghin (Jan 20, 2013)

^^ He even pulled it off completely trashed when live  He was pretty damned good.


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## m3l-mrq3z (Jan 21, 2013)

^^ who? Jani or the new guy


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## Max Dread (Jan 21, 2013)

Adam Of Angels said:


> Also, check out Jani (ex-Sonata Arctica) - he seems to have a perfect combination of wrist, thumb, and elbow, and his picking is super consistent and quick - starting at 1:19:



It's a horrendous song/riff.... So bad that I think I prefer Syu's attire in the vid. But hey, that's just a taste thing and not really relevant. 

On first watch it seemed that the really fast alternate picking by Jani had no movement from wrist or thumb at all. Yes, he does use all three, but uses them at different times. Is that were you were saying in your post?

This is the technique I favour.... I definitely find that different types of riff need different approaches, and as such elbow, wrist, thumb, etc all have their place. 

OT - anyone know what model Ibby Jani is playing their?


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## m3l-mrq3z (Jan 21, 2013)

Max Dread said:


> It's a horrendous song/riff.... So bad that I think I prefer Syu's attire in the vid. But hey, that's just a taste thing and not really relevant.
> 
> On first watch it seemed that the really fast alternate picking by Jani had no movement from wrist or thumb at all. Yes, he does use all three, but uses them at different times. Is that were you were saying in your post?
> 
> ...



Check out this tune. Dude can write songs. He was actually the driving force behind Sonata Arctica's fresh (and still gay) power metal sound:



Players who engage the elbow when playing fast don't do that when playing slow, that's the point. You engage your elbow when you wanna go psycho and play as fast as you can.


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## Adam Of Angels (Jan 23, 2013)

Well, really, Jani only ever wrote very few things while in Sonata - Tony Kakko is and always has been the mastermind behind that band. 

When I said Jani combines all three techniques, I did mean that he uses them at different times. 

On, and he's playing an RG-2120x (or maybe the 2020x - I still don't know the difference between the two) in the video.


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## m3l-mrq3z (Jan 23, 2013)

Adam Of Angels said:


> Well, really, Jani only ever wrote very few things while in Sonata - *Tony Kakko is and always has been the mastermind behind that band. *
> 
> When I said Jani combines all three techniques, I did mean that he uses them at different times.
> 
> On, and he's playing an RG-2120x (or maybe the 2020x - I still don't know the difference between the two) in the video.



He didn't write riffs, solos and so on. Listen to Cain's offering.


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## VBCheeseGrater (Jan 23, 2013)

I'm having such a hard time getting my wrist fast on double picking. i've been playing 20+ years but just never got superfast on the double picking - always used alot of legato, i end up sloppily using my elbow for really fast double picking. Just need to dedicate myself to it more i guess, put in more REAL practice instead of noodling around playing with gear settings!!!

any tips appreciated on getting wrist up to speed for an old dog.


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## Adam Of Angels (Jan 23, 2013)

m3l-mrq3z said:


> He didn't write riffs, solos and so on. Listen to Cain's offering.




Solos and stuff were, of course, mostly Janis's doing. A majority of riffs were still written by Tony on keys before they turned into what we hear on the albums.


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## m3l-mrq3z (Jan 23, 2013)

Did Tony tell you all that?


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## Adam Of Angels (Jan 23, 2013)

m3l-mrq3z said:


> Did Tony tell you all that?



Not directly, but it's been said many times. He always wrote at least the general idea and then the other guys would do their thing with it.


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## SP1N3SPL1TT3R (Jan 23, 2013)

Yo_Wattup said:


> Why do so many people call sixteenth note gallops triplets?
> 
> Speaking of slayer, Jeff Hanneman uses his elbow instead of his wrist.



Cause I mainly memorize songs by ear. In my head they're triplets. Plus, I'm too lazy to break down a composition and do the math.

I think Hanneman won't return, because of the effects of the spider bite + how his extremely specialized elbow picking technique is. I'm amazed that his elbow didn't give out before, after 20+ years of playing like that. It's not very efficient.


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## SirMyghin (Jan 23, 2013)

^^

Your head is wrong. Problem solved. Triplet = 3 in the time of 2


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## All_¥our_Bass (Jan 24, 2013)

I do as much of my picking movement with my wrist as possible, use very minimal movement and I still have speed problems.

It's not a stamina thing either, my picked notes just turn into this weird scraping noise above a certain bpm.


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## AndyPollow (Jan 31, 2013)

Quikblade said:


> Been scrutinizing my technique lately and I notice that I tend to always pick from the wrist but never from the elbow. Ill put this down to me being self taught when it comes to picking as I was only taught classical guitar.
> 
> So Ive been wondering what techniques are easier when picked from the elbow?
> 
> ...




I used to pick great with the elbow. You can if you want. The only reason I dont is because even at best there is alot of tension all the way up the arm even in the shoulder. The wrist feels more casual and relaxed.

For a long time I thought it was hard to move the wrist fast and I found something cool. If I push a little hard on the string with the pick towards the guitar it makes my wrist naturally flick really fast. I dont know if that would help anyone else. I was lucky I found that one day.

I thought it was oscillating but then I thought it was rotating but now I think it might be both at the same time? Its so fast, small, and natural I dont know what it is but it is the wrist.


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## TheKindred (Jan 31, 2013)

I don't know if it's been addressed yet but...

Isn't a gallop 3 16th notes and a 16th rest? Whereas a triplet would be the 3 in the space of 2.


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## tedtan (Jan 31, 2013)

Technically, a gallop is an 8th followed by two 16ths, and a reverse gallop is two 16ths followed by an 8th. But you are correct in that a gallop is 4 16th notes over the space of a beat. A triplet is three notes over the space of a beat, so to call a gallop a triplet is incorrect.


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## VBCheeseGrater (Feb 2, 2013)

I posted in this thread early this week. Been putting in some serious practice, say an hour a night doing from the wrist alternate picking. We play "Duality" in my cover band and thats a great song to get your wrist in shape. In the last few days i've made great strides, getting some clean, fast, and most importantly relaxed double picking all from the wrist and sometimes thumb (unintentionally with the thumb).

What really seemed to help was switching between deliberate, slow, over-exaggerated strokes and then fast small strokes. After a few days practicing alternating between the two, making huge strides in speed and precision. So anyone struggling to speed up, try it, and get off the internet and start practicing. It will pay off after a few days. Mind, you i've been playing a long time - so it's never too late.


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## groverj3 (Feb 8, 2013)

I've been trying to pick exclusively from the wrist for a while now. I never could seem to sync up my hands to play much above 150bpm 16th notes using my elbow and I figured it was time to bite the bullet and try to look at my technique objectively.

That being said, there are some crazy players who elbow pick. I don't really buy that you can injure yourself or anything like that either.

Hell, MAB even does some weird shit engaging his shoulder in his picking and it works for him. Rusty Cooley looks like he's having an arm seizure, and can play pretty damn fast and clean as well. Obviously, they aren't my favorite musicians, but they have the whole technicality thing down...


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## thesnowdog (Feb 9, 2013)

groverj3 said:


> That being said, there are some crazy players who elbow pick. I don't really buy that you can injure yourself or anything like that either.



Most of these blokes are still reasonably young. It will be interesting to see who can keep it up, and with which technique, into their more mature years.


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## m3l-mrq3z (Feb 9, 2013)

^MAB? John Petrucci...Rusty...Vinnie...Chris Impelliteri...


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## tedtan (Feb 9, 2013)

I don't get this idea that picking from the elbow causes injury - it really doesn't make sense and I can't find any biomechanical or medical evidence to support it. I'm sure someone's teacher said that at some point and then that person repeated it here on SSO, and it just caught on like an old wive's tale and now everyone seems to repeat it as a truth without giving it any thought. Like m3l-mrq3z mentioned above, there are several well known players who have picked from the elbow (for at least some of their faster alternate picking) for over 30 years now and we've heard absolutely nothing about an elbow injury with any of them.

Let's be honest here: picking _*incorrectly*_ from the elbow can cause injury to the elbow just as picking _*incorrectly*_ from the wrist can cause injury to the wrist. But in both cases, the injury is not caused by where the motion originates, but the fact that it was done incorrectly (e.g., with excess tension or force, or at the wrong angle/rotation, etc.).

The real issue with picking from the elbow for most people is one of control - a small movement from the elbow creates more movement at the pick than the same small movement originating from the wrist. This control issue manifests itself for elbow pickers mainly when changing strings, but if a player can control it and make it work for them (like those mentioned above), more power to them.

You can get an exaggerated sense of this with a simple experiment: take a pencil in your hand and use it turn off a light switch and then do the same thing , but this time hold a 6ft (2m) dowel - you can flip the switch with either, but which one is easier to control? The one that moves less, which is the shorter one.


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## m3l-mrq3z (Feb 9, 2013)

tedtan said:


> I don't get this idea that picking from the elbow causes injury - it really doesn't make sense and I can't find any biomechanical or medical evidence to support it. I'm sure someone's teacher said that at some point and then that person repeated it here on SSO, and it just caught on like an old wive's tale and now everyone seems to repeat it as a truth without giving it any thought. Like m3l-mrq3z mentioned above, there are several well known players who have picked from the elbow (for at least some of their faster alternate picking) for over 30 years now and we've heard absolutely nothing about an elbow injury with any of them.
> 
> Let's be honest here: picking _*incorrectly*_ from the elbow can cause injury to the elbow just as picking _*incorrectly*_ from the wrist can cause injury to the wrist. But in both cases, the injury is not caused by where the motion originates, but the fact that it was done incorrectly (e.g., with excess tension or force, or at the wrong angle/rotation, etc.).
> 
> ...





I had this "friend" who was a strong endorser of the wrist-picking method, and he developed tendonitis at least twice during his musical career (he now works as an accountant).


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## thesnowdog (Feb 9, 2013)

m3l-mrq3z said:


> ^MAB? John Petrucci...Rusty...Vinnie...Chris Impelliteri...



I'm probably showing my age but none of those guys are in their mature years as I had envisaged though MAB is moving in that direction.

I don't really have an opinion either way -- I'm certainly not qualified. I was just pointing out that as most of these players emerged in the '80s there's not a lot of data on the long term effects.


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## m3l-mrq3z (Feb 10, 2013)

So what is "mature" to you? John is almost 50!! All those guys are actually close to their 50s!


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