# Help with strange rhythms. . .



## oldhairyone (Jan 17, 2011)

I've been trying to learn Dysphoria by Cloudkicker, and I came across a part that made my brain hurt. It's the bit with the three chords that comes before the initial riff starts again at the end. The time signature is a bar of 6/4 then three bars of 4/4. 

It sounds amazing to me, but . . .

I CAN'T FIGURE OUT HOW IT WORKS. 

Like, how do I count it? The rests throw me off.

Any suggestions or tips? I'd like to learn how it works so that I can write songs that play around with these awesome rhythms!

Thanks


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm going to go buy some booze right now, so I'll get more detailed when I get back. Where does the section you're talking about start?



As a bit of general advice, I learned to count odd meter additively, so I hear stuff as groups of twos and threes. You could be looking at something like 3+3, 2+2, 2+2, 2+2.


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## The Reverend (Jan 17, 2011)

SchecterWhore said:


> As a bit of general advice, I learned to count odd meter additively, so I hear stuff as groups of twos and threes. You could be looking at something like 3+3, 2+2, 2+2, 2+2.



This. It's actually similar to how odd timings are classified. I suggest you look into it. Learning what makes an odd time signature, well, odd, will make almost any timing instantly easier to understand and play.

There's a lot of good, free information on the web, I suggest you Google it!


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## rug (Jan 17, 2011)

This advice may not work for you...but I've never been an advocate of actually *counting* rhythms. It's always been more of a feel thing for me...I just learn the riff and play it, and let the drummer worry about how to count it. I've listened to that part a bunch, and to me it just sounds like he adds 2 quarter notes at the end of the normal pattern...but at the same time, he does that throughout the section, not just at the end. I'm not really the best person to ask for advice on this as far as counting goes...to me, the feel sort of overrides all. 

I used to be in the same boat as you, wondering how to count things that aren't in 4/4 - what I found is that I was subconsciously adding or subtracting notes to make it end up in 4/4. My advice in terms of long term writing (as in "how to I write with these awesome rhythms") would be to just play a series of notes or a melody that you enjoy just on it's own, tab it out on Guitar Pro, and see how many beats it is. Over time, if you do this enough (and by that I mean, write riffs and melodies without any regard to what time signature it fits in), you will invariably find yourself writing riffs that have some pretty messed up time signatures, but you won't be coming from a forced perspective. They will sound natural because you weren't trying to write weird rhythms, you'll be writing cool parts that happen to be outside of 4/4.

That Cloudkicker dude is really, really amazing - and I'm almost positive he doesn't sit around and count things out when he's jamming. If I had to put money on it, I would bet that he just writes the riffs, and writes something he thinks sounds cool, and worries about the time signature later.

I know none of this probably made any sense, sorry in advance.


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## Bakerman (Jan 18, 2011)

Does this help? http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/6264/dysphoria.png


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jan 18, 2011)

rug said:


> This advice may not work for you...but I've never been an advocate of actually *counting* rhythms. It's always been more of a feel thing for me...I just learn the riff and play it, and let the drummer worry about how to count it. I've listened to that part a bunch, and to me it just sounds like he adds 2 quarter notes at the end of the normal pattern...but at the same time, he does that throughout the section, not just at the end. I'm not really the best person to ask for advice on this as far as counting goes...to me, the feel sort of overrides all.
> 
> I used to be in the same boat as you, wondering how to count things that aren't in 4/4 - what I found is that I was subconsciously adding or subtracting notes to make it end up in 4/4. My advice in terms of long term writing (as in "how to I write with these awesome rhythms") would be to just play a series of notes or a melody that you enjoy just on it's own, tab it out on Guitar Pro, and see how many beats it is. Over time, if you do this enough (and by that I mean, write riffs and melodies without any regard to what time signature it fits in), you will invariably find yourself writing riffs that have some pretty messed up time signatures, but you won't be coming from a forced perspective. They will sound natural because you weren't trying to write weird rhythms, you'll be writing cool parts that happen to be outside of 4/4.
> 
> ...



This is similar to what I do. I think of everything as being in 4/4 and count it in 4/4 but when I go to tab it out I end up getting really weird time signatures 

Definately play along to a tab and give it a go


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## oldhairyone (Jan 18, 2011)

Bakerman said:


> Does this help? http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/6264/dysphoria.png



That does indeed help, thanks!

And schecterwhore, it starts at 2:15 



rug said:


> This advice may not work for you...but I've never been an advocate of actually *counting* rhythms. It's always been more of a feel thing for me...I just learn the riff and play it, and let the drummer worry about how to count it. I've listened to that part a bunch, and to me it just sounds like he adds 2 quarter notes at the end of the normal pattern...but at the same time, he does that throughout the section, not just at the end. I'm not really the best person to ask for advice on this as far as counting goes...to me, the feel sort of overrides all.
> 
> I used to be in the same boat as you, wondering how to count things that aren't in 4/4 - what I found is that I was subconsciously adding or subtracting notes to make it end up in 4/4. My advice in terms of long term writing (as in "how to I write with these awesome rhythms") would be to just play a series of notes or a melody that you enjoy just on it's own, tab it out on Guitar Pro, and see how many beats it is. Over time, if you do this enough (and by that I mean, write riffs and melodies without any regard to what time signature it fits in), you will invariably find yourself writing riffs that have some pretty messed up time signatures, but you won't be coming from a forced perspective. They will sound natural because you weren't trying to write weird rhythms, you'll be writing cool parts that happen to be outside of 4/4.
> 
> ...



No, it does make sense. I was thinking that he didn't plan on the time signature it ended up as. 

I'm just quite a clear-cut, formulaic kind of guy, so these weird rhythms boggle my mind heh heh. But guess I need to stop being formulaic and start just playing


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## Winspear (Jan 18, 2011)

oldhairyone said:


> But guess I need to stop being formulaic and start just playing



This is what works for me, I just feel it providing I've listened to the song enough. I know this song very well and it feels natural to me now.
I think it's similar to the chorus of Master of Puppets where the chords are held for 8, then 8, 4, 6, and 8. It's a song I know so well that I never even thought about it because I'd heard it so many times before I played it. Only when covering it in a band and the 6 was throwing us off because of the drummer, did I realise.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jan 18, 2011)

The Reverend said:


> This. It's actually similar to how odd timings are classified. I suggest you look into it. Learning what makes an odd time signature, well, odd, will make almost any timing instantly easier to understand and play.



Yep. There are two kinds of meters: additive and divisive. Additive, I've sort of explained already. You just count twos and threes.



A good chunk of this song is in 5. The beginning, you count as 3+2. "One-two-three One-two", or you can use syllables, like "ta-ki-ta ta-ka", or "burr-i-to ta-co". You can do the reverse, 2+3. That happens a couple times in this song, but there are better examples. That electric violin is badass.

This next one, I hear as more of a divisive meter, where the accent pattern is distributed, more or less, evenly to each of the beats.



At 0:41-0:59, we have another meter of 5, but rather than being heard as a two and a three added together, it's like 1+1+1+1+1. There is also some syncopation (like the snare hits on the & of 4 and 5), which is more indicative of divisive rhythms than additive ones.

I wrote a post over on MG.org that deals with this same stuff.
A Lesson On 5/4 Time, Jazz Music, and Irony - Page 3



oldhairyone said:


> That does indeed help, thanks!
> 
> And schecterwhore, it starts at 2:15
> 
> ...



This makes a lot of sense to me, actually. The rhythms aren't weird at all: it's three measures of five, terminated by measures of two; the first time, it's one measure, then the second time, it's two measures, and that pattern repeats. Furthermore, we're dealing with a hypermeter. In the notation Bakerman supplied, you see all that bracketed stuff at the top? Imagine if you barred the music according to that. You'd have a more concrete representation of the metrical breakup of the music. That 9/4 time signature is the hypermeter, and the downbeats of the bracketed stuff are the "beats" of the hypermeter. You could say that the phrase length is dictated by the hypermeter (and, thus, is quite formulaic).

And, Bakerman, where did you get the written music?


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## Bakerman (Jan 18, 2011)

SchecterWhore said:


> And, Bakerman, where did you get the written music?



I notated that w/ Sibelius.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jan 18, 2011)

Ah. I was wondering if Cloudkicker published it or something. Good work.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jan 18, 2011)

SchecterWhore said:


> "One-two-three One-two", or you can use syllables, like "ta-ki-ta ta-ka", or "burr-i-to ta-co". You can do the reverse, 2+3. That happens a couple times in this song, but there are better examples. That electric violin is badass.



For some reason, I've always counted this in 2+3:


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jan 18, 2011)

Scar Symmetry said:


> For some reason, I've always counted this in 2+3:




The intro? I agree.


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## oldhairyone (Jan 18, 2011)

Thanks again guys! Nice to be part of a forum that can happily offer informative and constructive replies for once


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jan 18, 2011)

oldhairyone said:


> Thanks again guys! Nice to be part of a forum that can happily offer informative and constructive replies for once


No. Stew in your helpless ignorance while we insult your intelligence. Noob. HARMONEE SENTREL 4EVEH!


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## oldhairyone (Jan 18, 2011)

SchecterWhore said:


> No. Stew in your helpless ignorance while we insult your intelligence. Noob. HARMONEE SENTREL 4EVEH!



Ha ha yeah exactly.

I've decided I'm in somewhat of a rut. I want to write music like Cloudkicker and Chimp Spanner and all those bands that play with these cool rhythms and stuff but I just don't know where to start. Is it enough to just keep learning their songs and hope that it'll have an impression on me? Or do I need to take lessons of some kind or something? Sorry if this is just irritating noob talk, but I really want to get better. The past year has been a guitar-less time so I feel I need to get back into it good and proper.

Any suggestions?


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## Scar Symmetry (Jan 18, 2011)

Chimp Spanner in particular is well up on his theory, so get yourself a theory book and get cracking. I have one called Music Theory - Everything You Ever Wanted To Know But Were Afraid To Ask by Tom Kolb and it is bloody great 

As for rhythms? 3 words: Meshuggah, Meshuggah, Meshuggah.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jan 18, 2011)

oldhairyone said:


> Ha ha yeah exactly.
> 
> I've decided I'm in somewhat of a rut. I want to write music like Cloudkicker and Chimp Spanner and all those bands that play with these cool rhythms and stuff but I just don't know where to start. Is it enough to just keep learning their songs and hope that it'll have an impression on me? Or do I need to take lessons of some kind or something? Sorry if this is just irritating noob talk, but I really want to get better. The past year has been a guitar-less time so I feel I need to get back into it good and proper.
> 
> Any suggestions?



I don't think you need to do private lessons in order to understand all this rhythmic jive. Really, there are just a few things to know: types of meter, syncopated and unsyncopated rhythms, rubato, maybe metric modulation, and how rhythms work in terms of cell, motive, phrase, and section (including development through augmentation, diminution, and other transformations). All the polyrhythm, polymeter, hypermeter crap is just an extension of those ideas. I like to incorporate history when I teach stuff, but that's really optional. Just practice with some straightforward rhythms, then get more complex.

As a general rule, I recommend these texts to people:

Amazon.com: Tonal Harmony (9780072852608): Stefan Kostka, Dorothy Payne: Books

Amazon.com: Materials and Techniques of Twentieth-Century Music (2nd Edition) (9780139240775): Stefan Kostka: Books

They have a good discussion on most of the rhythmic concepts I laid out here.

Also, I have a handout from a workshop on Balkan music that I attended. Some cool rhythmic stuff to study there.


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## LamaSabachthani (Jan 20, 2011)

SchecterWhore said:


> I'm going to go buy some booze right now, so I'll get more detailed when I get back. Where does the section you're talking about start?
> 
> 
> 
> As a bit of general advice, I learned to count odd meter additively, so I hear stuff as groups of twos and threes. You could be looking at something like 3+3, 2+2, 2+2, 2+2.




What's the intro riff in?


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## Winspear (Jan 20, 2011)

7/4 - 1 2 3 4 1 2 3.


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## Bakerman (Jan 20, 2011)

The intro is 15/8 (at quarter = 75 tempo) or however you want to divide that further. Guitar could be thought of as 7/8 4/4. Snare implies 4/4 7/8.


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## WickedSymphony (Jan 20, 2011)

SchecterWhore said:


> As a general rule, I recommend these texts to people:




For purely rhythm stuff, I'd like to add

Amazon.com: Rhythm & Meter Patterns (9780769234694): Gary Chaffee: Books

It's primarily a drum book, but all the exercises on rhythms can really be applied to any instrument. And after going through all these, you should be pretty comfortable playing with all sorts of odd groupings and rests and whatnot. Just practice the exercises with muting the strings or on a single note or whatever you want.


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## Winspear (Jan 20, 2011)

Bakerman said:


> The intro is 15/8 (at quarter = 75 tempo) or however you want to divide that further. Guitar could be thought of as 7/8 4/4. Snare implies 4/4 7/8.



 Not sure how I managed to count that as straight 7  Yep 7/8 4/4. I'd count it:
1 2 3 4 1 2 3 , 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3


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## rchrd_le (Feb 7, 2011)

SchecterWhore said:


> I'm going to go buy some booze right now, so I'll get more detailed when I get back. Where does the section you're talking about start?
> 
> 
> 
> As a bit of general advice, I learned to count odd meter additively, so I hear stuff as groups of twos and threes. You could be looking at something like 3+3, 2+2, 2+2, 2+2.





I've had a lot of trouble on the breakdown of this song. The rest of the song I got down.

Is there any way to count or could you guys tell me where the repetition is? Starts at about 1:00 in to the song.


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## Bakerman (Feb 7, 2011)

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/7585/dysphoria1min.png


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