# NGD: Fractal FM3



## Deadpool_25

Only posting this now because @budda is e-stalking me .

The FM3 arrived yesterday. And (TL;DR) it’s fucking awesome.

I will try to post a couple of updates over the next week or two.

14 Apr 2020, Day 1
UPS dropped off the FM3 and FC6 around 1:00. Interestingly, and a bit annoyingly, the EV-2 wasn’t delivered even though Fractal shipped all three units the same day. Apparently a couple more days til that arrives. 

I wiped down the boxes (crazy it’s come to that) then unboxed. Everything was well packed of course. I’m glad I was prepared for the form factor of the FM3. It’s bigger than my very first impression from when it was first announced. It’s certainly not too big in my opinion. I like how it sits next to the FC6 of course. I was thinking I might take off the end caps but maybe not. We’ll see

My overall plan is to run the FM3 through the FX loops of two of my amps, but initially I wanted to explore the presets through my HS7 monitors. So I placed the FM3 (not the FC6 yet) on the desk and went to hook it up, quickly realizing I didn’t have the right cables. Sam Ash: closed. Guitar Center: closed. Fry’s Electronics: out. Desperate, I found a guy selling some on Craigslist and drive the extra 45 minutes to pick them up.

When I got home I immediately hooked up the FM3 and a guitar (Warmoth Tele with the Dimarzio Joe Duplantier set—fantastic guitar and pickups). Over the course of about an hour and a half, using the Nav and “A” knobs, I made my way through the first 30 presets and all related scenes. Annnnndd....

Wow. The feel and sound are absolutely phenomenal. I actually quite liked them all. I mean it...ALL of them. There are all kinds of amps represented, and I could definitely see a use for any of them. Well done, Fractal.

I really wasn’t expecting too much using the monitors instead of using real cabs but I was shocked at how great they sounded. Like...so good I’m not sure I need to run through the amps (I will though, for sure).

Although I knew I’d like the HBE and a few of my other favorite models from my old AFX2, I found I really liked everything. Also the feel is perfect as far as I can tell. So far, sound and feel get a 10/10 from me.

It’s also built like a tank as far as I can tell. Buttons and knobs and footswitches are high quality. It has a nice beefiness to it but isn’t too chunky or heavy. Form factor and physical appearance: 8/10.

So that’s my first impression. More to come as I work my way through more presets and eventually dig in a bit and start making my own patches. Also when I connect it to my real amps.


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## Deadpool_25

Day two: 
One of my questions was how to setup a function similar to the EHX Freeze which just captures a time snippet of sound and holds it (basically). After a quick try with the delay block’s hold function (worked but there’s kind of a “click”) I tried using a reverb block and its hold function. Well, mission accomplished. That was easy.

Next up was trying out the synth block to see if it could maybe render my SY-1 redundant. After just a few minutes and only very minor and basic tweaking I realized it could probably get the job done. The only question will be how much CPU I’d use in a preset with normal amp tones AND the synth stuff. Although I didn’t test that, I suspect I’d run out of CPU. I might be able to do something using two presets and a looper block though.

I also did a quick play through of the different reverbs. Yeah. Fractal nailed it. I was just getting lost in those lush ambient washes and marveling at how great they sounded. Then I remembered something and quickly glanced at Axe Edit...wtf, those are on “normal”? Ridiculous.

I took a quick peek at the plex delay as well. Yet another super cool block and again I only barely scraped the surface of that block.

The power of the FM3 is just amazing and my initial impression holds. It seems to me the primary limitation will be CPU but we shall see. I’m sure it doesn’t need to be an issue for me unless I really want to go all out on a kitchen sink preset. Likely there are ways around that though.


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## budda

I'm actually just here to make @c7spheres cave. .

Edit: if you want the lushest of reverbs, plex verb is where you want to go. Watch the Leon Todd demo to give you some base settings, then get lost.

It's eclipsed my faux-afterneath setting for ambience.


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## Deadpool_25

@c7spheres Just do it man.


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## JD27

Does yours have headphones circuitry? I got a invitation for the models without on March 24, but I have been holding out. Would prefer that be included, still excited to try one.


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## c7spheres

budda said:


> I'm actually just here to make @c7spheres cave. .
> 
> Edit: if you want the lushest of reverbs, plex verb is where you want to go. Watch the Leon Todd demo to give you some base settings, then get lost.
> 
> It's eclipsed my faux-afterneath setting for ambience.





Deadpool_25 said:


> @c7spheres Just do it man.



- You're not making this any easier! I'm sure I'll eventually cave. 
- I think I might be getting one of those stimulus checks too, so that's not making it any easier either!
- I'm actually going through gear to see if there's anything I'm willing ot part with to offset the costs. I keep trying to rationalize if I offeset the costs by selling any non essential gear then It would be like the same as just keeping that gear. Problem is I've alredy done that so much for other stuff I don't want to sell anything! : )

- I'm also thinking the FM3 incorporated into my main rig would be cool, function as a backup rig, and also as a portable rig too.


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## Shask

Would you say there is a huge difference from your AfxII?

I go back and forth with different gear, but still find new tricks in my old AfxII I have had for years.


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## c7spheres

- If I ever do get one of these units I hope someone comes out with some good "Glue Blob" IR's. Yes people, we're talking abouut "tone glue blobs" now. 
- I was listening to the clips and was thinking that I like the blob track best, though darker. I agree with Nolly, The blob side/mic position is better sounding, though darker. Even Nolly is saying it seems to translate better/ more useful in a mix. "tone blob" is my new word of the day : )


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## budda

Dark? Just cut the highs at like 6k .


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## Deadpool_25

JD27 said:


> Does yours have headphones circuitry? I got a invitation for the models without on March 24, but I have been holding out. Would prefer that be included, still excited to try one.



Nope, mine is a no headphone version. I don’t really need that and get ear fatigue quickly with headphones. I think it may lessen the resale in the future though.


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## Deadpool_25

Shask said:


> Would you say there is a huge difference from your AfxII?
> 
> I go back and forth with different gear, but still find new tricks in my old AfxII I have had for years.



Im not 100% sure tbh. I remember the II sounded really good too. It’s just been too long (2 years? More?). My main issue with the AxeFX was I was always tweaking and hardly ever just playing . Also I really wanted a floor unit. I was kinda set to sell my Axe FX and get an AX8. I sold the Axe FX then before I pulled the trigger on the AX8, the Axe FX III came out so I said I’d just get the floor version....and here we are however long after that haha.


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## Deadpool_25

I got that stimulus check the other day btw. @c7spheres I decided to get the FM3 now. If I didn’t like it I could flip it quickly (even for a little profit I suppose). If I liked it (I reallllly do), I could sell off a bunch of other stuff. I have a few shelves of pedals I can offload (including almost all the Strymons) that could more than cover the cost.


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## c7spheres

Deadpool_25 said:


> I got that stimulus check the other day btw. @c7spheres I decided to get the FM3 now. If I didn’t like it I could flip it quickly (even for a little profit I suppose). If I liked it (I reallllly do), I could sell off a bunch of other stuff. I have a few shelves of pedals I can offload (including almost all the Strymons) that could more than cover the cost.


 I remember you really liked those Strymons. So the FM-3 just makes those redundant then I suppose? Like, you're not even blinking at letting those go in favor of the FM-3 it seems, so now I'm even more tempted by this thing. I think I've basically already caved and now going through the justification phase : )


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## Deadpool_25

c7spheres said:


> I remember you really liked those Strymons. So the FM-3 just makes those redundant then I suppose? Like, you're not even blinking at letting those go in favor of the FM-3 it seems, so now I'm even more tempted by this thing. I think I've basically already caved and now going through the justification phase : )



The Strymons are phenomenal. I haven’t quite decided yet but I could see it happening maybe. I still need to run the FM3 through my amps. That’ll be the deciding factor I think.


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## budda

I ditched my strymons for an FX8 and didn't miss them at all .


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## SloeGin

Congrats! How do you like the combination FM3 with Yamaha HS7 monitors?


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## wakjob

Has the waiting list opened up recently b/c of this economy?


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## sakeido

Nope, it's still a mile long. If anything the stimulus check has maxed the take rate on FM3 invites right out


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## Deadpool_25

SloeGin said:


> Congrats! How do you like the combination FM3 with Yamaha HS7 monitors?



Sounds great to me. Just after I bought an Axe FX II (years ago) I got some KRK Rockits. I tried that combo out and took the Rockits back and swapped them out for the HS7s. Muuuuch better. Sold the Axe FX but kept the monitors all this time.


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## sharedEQ

[QUOTE="sakeido, po


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## GoldDragon

Do you have any clips? I'm interested in these.


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## StevenC




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## Deadpool_25

Day 4:
Finally got around to trying it through my real amp FX loops. California Tweed combo on the left, Super Kraken head and California Tweed extension cab on the right.

I started out running XLR-to-TS cables from output 1 to the amps’ returns and noticed a bit of hum. It wasn’t horrible but it was noticeable. I just played through that and worked it out afterwards by using regular TS cables from output 2. I have some Humbuster cables laying around and tried those for the fun of it but there’s no difference between them and the TS cables—both were silent.

I created a patch with just an amp block and tried a few amps: Shiver Clean, Friedman BE, Dizzy VH4 Blue Ch3, Plexi 100 Jump, and Super Verb Normal. These all worked flawlessly. I tried with power amp sag on and with it off and got excellent results both ways. My amps both had fairly low master volume settings so aren’t really adding much of their own color. The feel is outstanding. I want to do a little more testing but I’m incredibly happy with the sounds.

Menu diving to get to things is still a minor annoyance but it’s to be expected. I just don’t see reasonable any way around it with products like these. I found I was getting used to it quite quickly so maybe any annoyance will pass as I get more proficient at editing on the FM3 instead of using FM3 Edit.

The next test will be building some “kitchen sink” presets to see how I am with the CPU’s limits.


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## Deadpool_25

StevenC said:


>



Here you go. It’s not completed yet (needs things to be secured, and needs a couple wires added and such) but this should give the general idea.

Im using the GigRig patchbay to relocate the guitar input to the right side of the board.


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## Deadpool_25

GoldDragon said:


> Do you have any clips? I'm interested in these.



Sorry, I don’t and honestly probably won’t get around to it. There are bound to be plenty soon enough. The sounds are exactly the same as on the AxeFX III though, and there are tons of clips of that. The primary difference is the FM3 has less processing power so you can’t run the same number of effects and a few effects haven’t been ported over.


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## budda

Any particular reason you aren't mostly using the editor?


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## Deadpool_25

budda said:


> Any particular reason you aren't mostly using the editor?



I’ll use the editor more often in the future most likely. Right now, I’m just wanting to get proficient enough with doing things on the FM3 that I won’t feel like I have to connect the computer if I don’t want to.


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## budda

Deadpool_25 said:


> I’ll use the editor more often in the future most likely. Right now, I’m just wanting to get proficient enough with doing things on the FM3 that I won’t feel like I have to connect the computer if I don’t want to.



I mean, its one cable . I learned the fx8 without editor for touring. With the iii though, I doubt i will do much editing at the front panel - even though it has functions axe edit doesnt access. My plan is to set up the perform screen once gigs are back on the horizon.


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## GoldDragon

Deadpool_25 said:


> Sorry, I don’t and honestly probably won’t get around to it. There are bound to be plenty soon enough. The sounds are exactly the same as on the AxeFX III though, and there are tons of clips of that. The primary difference is the FM3 has less processing power so you can’t run the same number of effects and a few effects haven’t been ported over.



Can you run parallel amps in a patch? Can you run two cabs per amp?

How fast is patch switching?


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## odibrom

Now that these are out, allow me to ask if they're fully controlled via MIDI Program and Control messages, mainly to change patches and to change parameters inside each patch...? 

My idea would be to place this inside the rack and control it via a MIDI pedalboard.

Thank you in advance.


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## broangiel

GoldDragon said:


> Can you run parallel amps in a patch? Can you run two cabs per amp?
> 
> How fast is patch switching?



You can't run amps in parallel since the FM3 only supports 1 amp block (but it can support 4 channels within that block). The cab block can mix up to 4 impulses.


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## budda

odibrom said:


> Now that these are out, allow me to ask if they're fully controlled via MIDI Program and Control messages, mainly to change patches and to change parameters inside each patch...?
> 
> My idea would be to place this inside the rack and control it via a MIDI pedalboard.
> 
> Thank you in advance.



Yes it can do that. I think everything they've released does pc and cc changes.


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## GoldDragon

broangiel said:


> You can't run amps in parallel since the FM3 only supports 1 amp block (but it can support 4 channels within that block). The cab block can mix up to 4 impulses.



How many other blocks does it get besides the amp and cab?

Based on specs, I thought the FX3 was virtually unlimited. Even at 1/2 the processing the FM3 should have many blocks.


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## broangiel

GoldDragon said:


> How many other blocks does it get besides the amp and cab?
> 
> Based on specs, I thought the FX3 was virtually unlimited. Even at 1/2 the processing the FM3 should have many blocks.



Of course both units have limits. Yes, there is a high ceiling on those limits, but the Axe is far from unlimited (much like every other computer).

I'd recommend looking through the FM3 to answer your questions. There's a lot of good info here: https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/index.php?title=FM3#Effects_list


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## odibrom

budda said:


> Yes it can do that. I think everything they've released does pc and cc changes.



... so I could control a Wah block with a MIDI expression pedal... and all that jazz?


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## Shask

GoldDragon said:


> How many other blocks does it get besides the amp and cab?
> 
> Based on specs, I thought the FX3 was virtually unlimited. Even at 1/2 the processing the FM3 should have many blocks.


All of the Fractal units are really only limited by the processor by how many blocks you can use at once. You can stack as many as you want until you run out of processor. However, you are limited in how many you can have of each type. Like, you can only have 1 amp block, and 1 cab block, 2 reverb blocks, 4 EQ blocks, etc... whatever the numbers are for the FM3. However, you can stack as many different blocks as you want until you run out of processor.


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## Shask

odibrom said:


> ... so I could control a Wah block with a MIDI expression pedal... and all that jazz?


You can control just about anything on a Fractal with an expression pedal.


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## GoldDragon

Shask said:


> All of the Fractal units are really only limited by the processor by how many blocks you can use at once. You can stack as many as you want until you run out of processor. However, you are limited in how many you can have of each type. Like, you can only have 1 amp block, and 1 cab block, 2 reverb blocks, 4 EQ blocks, etc... whatever the numbers are for the FM3. However, you can stack as many different blocks as you want until you run out of processor.



What does that mean in practice? Can you run an amp, 2 IR cab sim, stereo image, PEQ, graphic EQ, boost pedal, wah, tap delay, chorus/ph/flange, and reverb at once?

And what is the switching delay between patches? 

The above signal chain is a practical minimum that I would think it should have. I would imagine it can do that. OTH, idk what % of processing power the FM3 has. If it only has 20% the power of the FX3, that might be a problem.


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## Shask

GoldDragon said:


> What does that mean in practice? Can you run an amp, 2 IR cab sim, stereo image, PEQ, graphic EQ, boost pedal, wah, tap delay, chorus/ph/flange, and reverb at once?
> 
> The above signal chain is a practical minimum that I would think it should have. I would imagine it can do that. OTH, idk what % of processing power the FM3 has. If it only has 20% the power of the FX3, that might be a problem.


I am not sure since I do not have a FM3. I think I have gotten up to 19 blocks at once on the Axe-FX II. Comp, filter, EQ, gate, boost, amp, cab, phaser, flanger, chorus, pitch, delay, reverb, multicompressor, quad chorus, Graphic EQ, Parametric EQ, filter, enhancer, etc.....

You can usually pile on tons of "normal" blocks. It is the high quality reverbs, plex delays, amps, etc.... that are limited since they are high resource blocks.


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## GoldDragon

Shask said:


> I am not sure since I do not have a FM3. I think I have gotten up to 19 blocks at once on the Axe-FX II. Comp, filter, EQ, gate, boost, amp, cab, phaser, flanger, chorus, pitch, delay, reverb, multicompressor, quad chorus, Graphic EQ, Parametric EQ, filter, enhancer, etc.....
> 
> You can usually pile on tons of "normal" blocks. It is the high quality reverbs, plex delays, amps, etc.... that are limited since they are high resource blocks.



The FX2 might be a better deal than the FM3 depending on processing power. What my ears hear in the videos, they sound the same quality. It comes down to how they have it programmed.


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## GoldDragon

Deadpool_25 said:


> Day 4:
> Finally got around to trying it through my real amp FX loops. California Tweed combo on the left, Super Kraken head and California Tweed extension cab on the right.
> 
> I started out running XLR-to-TS cables from output 1 to the amps’ returns and noticed a bit of hum. It wasn’t horrible but it was noticeable. I just played through that and worked it out afterwards by using regular TS cables from output 2. I have some Humbuster cables laying around and tried those for the fun of it but there’s no difference between them and the TS cables—both were silent.
> 
> I created a patch with just an amp block and tried a few amps: Shiver Clean, Friedman BE, Dizzy VH4 Blue Ch3, Plexi 100 Jump, and Super Verb Normal. These all worked flawlessly. I tried with power amp sag on and with it off and got excellent results both ways. My amps both had fairly low master volume settings so aren’t really adding much of their own color. The feel is outstanding. I want to do a little more testing but I’m incredibly happy with the sounds.
> 
> Menu diving to get to things is still a minor annoyance but it’s to be expected. I just don’t see reasonable any way around it with products like these. I found I was getting used to it quite quickly so maybe any annoyance will pass as I get more proficient at editing on the FM3 instead of using FM3 Edit.
> 
> The next test will be building some “kitchen sink” presets to see how I am with the CPU’s limits.



It looks like you pretty much have to program it with the computer software.


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## Shask

GoldDragon said:


> It looks like you pretty much have to program it with the computer software.


Despite the tremendous amount of bitching online, it is not that hard to program Fractal stuff on the unit.


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## budda

Shask said:


> You can control just about anything on a Fractal with an expression pedal.



Which is a large part of the fun, once you get going .



GoldDragon said:


> What does that mean in practice? Can you run an amp, 2 IR cab sim, stereo image, PEQ, graphic EQ, boost pedal, wah, tap delay, chorus/ph/flange, and reverb at once?
> 
> And what is the switching delay between patches?
> 
> The above signal chain is a practical minimum that I would think it should have. I would imagine it can do that. OTH, idk what % of processing power the FM3 has. If it only has 20% the power of the FX3, that might be a problem.



It should be able to run your proposed signal chain with some juice leftover, yes. I personally don't need that amount of stuff running but some folks are power users and fractal is aware of this. Don't forget that you have 4 channels per block - so you probably don't need to run two different EQ's (especially given the EQ tab in most blocks), and the boost pedal is already in your amp block.

To give you an idea - my tour "pedalboard" in the FX8 was two presets with; drive, reverb, delay, pitch, and volume. I ran two presets because the CPU couldn't handle a two delay + two reverb preset with power for drive and pitch. The FM3 can run two reverb blocks, two delay blocks, plus the pitch and volume block without running into trouble. 

GD, time for you to look up some videos and read the manual for the unit .


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## Deadpool_25

GoldDragon said:


> What does that mean in practice? Can you run an amp, 2 IR cab sim, stereo image, PEQ, graphic EQ, boost pedal, wah, tap delay, chorus/ph/flange, and reverb at once?
> 
> And what is the switching delay between patches?
> 
> The above signal chain is a practical minimum that I would think it should have. I would imagine it can do that. OTH, idk what % of processing power the FM3 has. If it only has 20% the power of the FX3, that might be a problem.



I’m pretty sure you can run a patch like that. I’ll toss something together when I get home and see how much cpu it uses.


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## Deadpool_25

GoldDragon said:


> It looks like you pretty much have to program it with the computer software.



Not at all. I’ll make a point of throwing together that patch using just the front panel. It would be faster on the editor but using the unit is definitely doable.


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## Deadpool_25

budda said:


> I mean, its one cable . I learned the fx8 without editor for touring. With the iii though, I doubt i will do much editing at the front panel - even though it has functions axe edit doesnt access. My plan is to set up the perform screen once gigs are back on the horizon.



Yeah but my Mac is across the room from my amps and I’ll keep the FM3 on the board mostly so I’d need a super long cable, then I’d have to go back and forth. And if I get together with friends and want to tweak something I want to be comfortable doing so. 

I spent a couple hours with FM3 edit building a layout thing the other day (posted in the fractal forum because no one here cares lol).


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## Deadpool_25

@GoldDragon 
I just threw together a quick preset with:
Wah, PEQ, Drive, Amp, Cab (2 IR), GEQ, Flanger, Phaser, Chorus (those three in parallel), Delay, Reverb, Enhancer (not sure what you meant by “stereo image”).

That’s right at 79% CPU so pretty close to the ceiling. 

Also I did it from the front panel and it wasn’t tough. Definitely would be easier to do in the editor but that’s to be expected.


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## budda

@GoldDragon this may be of use:

https://www.axefxtutorials.com/fm3/fm3-block-cpu-usage-estimates/


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## Bearitone

daaamnn! Was not expecting reverb to take up that much. Some of those reverbs take up about 35%!!!


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## budda

Bearitone said:


> daaamnn! Was not expecting reverb you take up that much. Some of those reverts take up about 35%!!!



Which makes me ask - @Deadpool_25 were you running normal, high or ultra verb?


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## Shask

Bearitone said:


> daaamnn! Was not expecting reverb you take up that much. Some of those reverts take up about 35%!!!


Those are the High-Def Reverbs, which are just unnecessary most of the time. Use those if you are mastering with the Axe or something.


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## odibrom

Shask said:


> You can control just about anything on a Fractal with an expression pedal.



The question was not about the "expression Pedal" but about the "MIDI expression pedal"...


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## Shask

odibrom said:


> The question was not about the "expression Pedal" but about the "MIDI expression pedal"...


What is the difference?


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## odibrom

@Shask These pedal units have dedicated expression pedal jacks where the expression pedal connects directly to the unit, versus a MIDI based expression pedal, like those found on Roland's FC200 and FC300 MIDI boards...

BTW, thank you very much for you time and patience...


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## budda

@odibrom I would assume it's a matter of the right programming.


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## Deadpool_25

budda said:


> Which makes me ask - @Deadpool_25 were you running normal, high or ultra verb?



Normal. Those do sound amazing imo. I’ve hardly even tried the higher settings. Reverb is definitely a glutton for CPU power.


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## odibrom

budda said:


> @odibrom I would assume it's a matter of the right programming.



I have no doubt that the rack units have this addressed but as far as I've been learning, most of the floor multiFX units don't have full MIDI control...


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## budda

Deadpool_25 said:


> Normal. Those do sound amazing imo. I’ve hardly even tried the higher settings. Reverb is definitely a glutton for CPU power.



Biggest cpu suck iirc.


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## budda

odibrom said:


> I have no doubt that the rack units have this addressed but as far as I've been learning, most of the floor multiFX units don't have full MIDI control...



To the manual!


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## odibrom

budda said:


> To the manual!



... so many in front of me...


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## Deadpool_25

After some screwing around building presets I’m pretty satisfied with the CPU limits. I can get to the CPU warning but I have plenty of shit in my presets by then...probably would t need that much most of the time anyway. 

I’m having a tough time finding something I dislike about this thing. Definitely considering selling off almost all my pedals now. I’d probably have to keep a few around just...well, because.

I did a quick little shootout with the Super Kraken’s Gain 2 (based on 5150II) and a 5150 block letter model (didn’t even see there’s a 5150 II model; oops). I ran the FM3 through the SK Return. The modeled preamp sounds just as good as the SK’s tube preamp section. I left power amp sag on at the lowest setting. The fractal models gave that immediacy and girth you get from the real amp. 

Again, I’m trying to figure out why I need most of these other pedals around. The FM3 is just so damned good.


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## Deadpool_25

odibrom said:


> I have no doubt that the rack units have this addressed but as far as I've been learning, most of the floor multiFX units don't have full MIDI control...



Looking at the manual a bit, it looks like you can control almost anything via midi. Midi can be used as a control switch and there are MANY things you can do with control switches.


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## budda

Sell them, keep the rest, dont use them for a year, sell those too .

@odibrom I mean the pdf on the site, my bad.


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## Shask

odibrom said:


> @Shask These pedal units have dedicated expression pedal jacks where the expression pedal connects directly to the unit, versus a MIDI based expression pedal, like those found on Roland's FC200 and FC300 MIDI boards...
> 
> BTW, thank you very much for you time and patience...


When you assign a modifier to a parameter, you can select whatever source you want. You can select the expression pedal jack, any Midi CC number, or even an internal modifier (LFO, Step Sequencer, etc...). It works the same regardless of what source you use.

I used a Roland EV-5 for years with my Axe-FX II plugged right in the back, and now I use a Behringer FCB1010 using Midi CC numbers. Works the same either way.


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## Shask

Deadpool_25 said:


> After some screwing around building presets I’m pretty satisfied with the CPU limits. I can get to the CPU warning but I have plenty of shit in my presets by then...probably would t need that much most of the time anyway.
> 
> I’m having a tough time finding something I dislike about this thing. Definitely considering selling off almost all my pedals now. I’d probably have to keep a few around just...well, because.
> 
> I did a quick little shootout with the Super Kraken’s Gain 2 (based on 5150II) and a 5150 block letter model (didn’t even see there’s a 5150 II model; oops). I ran the FM3 through the SK Return. The modeled preamp sounds just as good as the SK’s tube preamp section. I left power amp sag on at the lowest setting. The fractal models gave that immediacy and girth you get from the real amp.
> 
> Again, I’m trying to figure out why I need most of these other pedals around. The FM3 is just so damned good.


Still fun to play with other stuff. When I got my Axe-FX II years ago, it was all I used for years. I got rid of almost everything. Slowly though, over time, I had got more and more gear. Even though the Axe can do everything, it is still fun to play with different gear. Tube amps, pedals, rack units, etc.... I also found things I didn't like about the Axe, but it took years. Fractal are amazing, but it still fun to play with different gear.


----------



## c7spheres

@Deadpool_25 @budda @Shask 

I'm sure I've asked this before but I must ask again about the feel. How do you guy rate the feel of the units? How do they handle the breakup tones when picking really light to really laying into it. Dynamically doees the gain/distortion amount and rolling of volme knobs etc respond well or like is commonwith "normal" amps? 
- I noticed one thing the FM3 doens't have that the Axe III has is the variable input impedence. It only has the 1Mohm input not the other's. not sure that matters to me as 1meg is probalby what I'd put it on anyways more than likely.


----------



## budda

It's all there. Buy one.


----------



## odibrom

budda said:


> @odibrom I mean the pdf on the site, my bad.



I don't remember the last time I read a paper user manual... what I meant was HelixStomp's, Headrush Gigboard's and so on... I'm looking at my options on multiFX with 4cable method addressed at their construction, so I can place the Triaxis in the multiFX loop and manage what FXs are in front and after the preamp as I did with my old Roland GP100... it just suck way too much tone that way...

I'm missing a wah pedal in front, the G-Force's sounds cool with clean and crunchy tones, but not that much with heavy dirt ones, and I'm also missing a compressor. I know I could solve this with analogue pedals, it's just I don't want analogue signal in my pedalboard. The other option was to go with ProStage WahryTone, but that's a steep price for a remotely controlled wah pedal with NO other way of programming besides knowing MIDI SYSEX code, having a mobile phone via Bluetooth or via another dedicated and expensive piece of hardware to get USB connectivity. Fantastic ideas that are ruined by poorly thought user interface... same as the Dunlop's Rack Wah, why does it have no MIDI? (*) damn...

* yah, I know, engineering and tech stuff is expensive, but nevertheless, they could have gone that extra mile... it would probably meant more sales and therefore more money to get a less expensive product...

@Shask so your experience is with the AxeFX 2, not with the FM3...



Deadpool_25 said:


> Looking at the manual a bit, it looks like you can control almost anything via midi. Midi can be used as a control switch and there are MANY things you can do with control switches.



That's awesome, thank you, now if you let me ask you a deeper nerdy question about this... with MIDI expression pedals, one can have 127 levels of input data, meaning the pedals range from 1 at heel to 128 at toe, question is can one assign an ON/OFF function or any other parameter for that matter, anywhere in this range, for example, having a reverb volume ranging from 1=no FX volume to 100=max reverb FX volume and from from 100=max direct volume to 127= minimum direct volume. The effect of this programming would be like from heel until position 100 one would increase the reverb FX/wet volume and from there to 127 one would keep the reverb FX at maximum and gradually kill the dry signal, so to have wet signal only?

This is something I used to do with my old Roland GP100 so to remove the "Guitar expected tone" out of the equation and achieve a more spacial and atmospheric tone... pretty cool for late night guitar ramblings... add a looper pedal and a fretless guitar with sustainer system and one is traveling the universe...


----------



## Shask

c7spheres said:


> @Deadpool_25 @budda @Shask
> 
> I'm sure I've asked this before but I must ask again about the feel. How do you guy rate the feel of the units? How do they handle the breakup tones when picking really light to really laying into it. Dynamically doees the gain/distortion amount and rolling of volme knobs etc respond well or like is commonwith "normal" amps?
> - I noticed one thing the FM3 doens't have that the Axe III has is the variable input impedence. It only has the 1Mohm input not the other's. not sure that matters to me as 1meg is probalby what I'd put it on anyways more than likely.


I have a II, not a III, so I am not sure how big the difference is. I am not really a player who rides the volume knob on my guitar, so I am not the best to answer that. I can say that the dynamics in general are one of the best in digital units, in terms of feeling bouncy, and fun to play. It is not flat, and it is not overly dynamic. I always find Line 6 units like, overly dynamic, where it feels like you have to slam the strings to sound right. I always use a compressor on Line 6 units, and I don't do that with Fractal.

I don't know if that impedance thing makes much difference unless you start with a fuzz pedal or something. I think I always have it on auto.


----------



## c7spheres

odibrom said:


> I don't remember the last time I read a paper user manual... what I meant was HelixStomp's, Headrush Gigboard's and so on... I'm looking at my options on multiFX with 4cable method addressed at their construction, so I can place the Triaxis in the multiFX loop and manage what FXs are in front and after the preamp as I did with my old Roland GP100... it just suck way too much tone that way...
> 
> I'm missing a wah pedal in front, the G-Force's sounds cool with clean and crunchy tones, but not that much with heavy dirt ones, and I'm also missing a compressor. I know I could solve this with analogue pedals, it's just I don't want analogue signal in my pedalboard. The other option was to go with ProStage WahryTone, but that's a steep price for a remotely controlled wah pedal with NO other way of programming besides knowing MIDI SYSEX code, having a mobile phone via Bluetooth or via another dedicated and expensive piece of hardware to get USB connectivity. Fantastic ideas that are ruined by poorly thought user interface... same as the Dunlop's Rack Wah, why does it have no MIDI? (*) damn...
> 
> * yah, I know, engineering and tech stuff is expensive, but nevertheless, they could have gone that extra mile... it would probably meant more sales and therefore more money to get a less expensive product...
> 
> @Shask so your experience is with the AxeFX 2, not with the FM3...


..

I've been down similar routes with this stuff. The preamps in the other units loops and the tone suck usually have to do with the other units lack of quality OR impedence mismatches etc. Normally processor loops just aren't meant to handle a "real" preamp pumping into them. You can use in-line impedence matchers and isolation transofrmers to match them up so the impedence and levels match up good and everythign sounds "right" but even then they usually aren't going to translate like the preamp is going to directly just because of whatever stuff is going on under the hood. Normally You'd get better results via the TriAxis loop. If you want a good quality 4cm using a lower fidelity unit it's possible but gets expensive really fast. You can use things like switchers and parallel mixers etc. to get it at a really good quality, but to much space and expensive for to little benefit.
- The best units for this is the Switchblades (supposedly, I never owned one) but they cost A LOT. I've had other SoundSculpture products though and they are top quality stuff for sure. 

- I had a really early version of the ProStage wah and it was just ok for me. I wasn't inspired by it that much honestly. I much prefer my Bad Horsie, the Vox and the standard issue Dunlops I've had in the past.

- I've owned both versions of the Dunlop rack wah. They're good and all but it more exists due to the convenience of that EQ in there and all the multiple pedal spots. Not realy worth the money, imo. You could get any wah and a switcher to just bring it in and out of the chain as needed. You won't notice tone loss when it's activated because it's a wah tone, but even with a different effect depending on the switcher great results are possible.
- That being said it is possible (and expensive probably) to midi automate a Dunlop rack wah if really wanted to. You'd just have to figure out the brush and pots used in the control pedal's for the Rack wah or what the rack wants to see at it's input pedal port and dial in a cv to midi controller connected to whatever pedal you like. IMO, way to high priced, way to much gear involved and way to much space and headache taken up just to have this. But it is possible.


----------



## c7spheres

Shask said:


> I have a II, not a III, so I am not sure how big the difference is. I am not really a player who rides the volume knob on my guitar, so I am not the best to answer that. I can say that the dynamics in general are one of the best in digital units, in terms of feeling bouncy, and fun to play. It is not flat, and it is not overly dynamic. I always find Line 6 units like, overly dynamic, where it feels like you have to slam the strings to sound right. I always use a compressor on Line 6 units, and I don't do that with Fractal.
> 
> I don't know if that impedance thing makes much difference unless you start with a fuzz pedal or something. I think I always have it on auto.


 Thanks. I don't really mess with the volume knob much either. Mostly all the way up, but I do a lot of dynmics and breakup control with just how hard I pick. Good info to know. Thanks again. : )


----------



## budda

@odibrom you would set exp to control mix and volume. Just set the start of your wet/dry whereever you need it instead of at 1.


----------



## budda

I'll do a volume knob clip with the s2, maybe later tonight. That nap is kicking in..


----------



## Deadpool_25

odibrom said:


> I don't remember the last time I read a paper user manual... what I meant was HelixStomp's, Headrush Gigboard's and so on... I'm looking at my options on multiFX with 4cable method addressed at their construction, so I can place the Triaxis in the multiFX loop and manage what FXs are in front and after the preamp as I did with my old Roland GP100... it just suck way too much tone that way...
> 
> I'm missing a wah pedal in front, the G-Force's sounds cool with clean and crunchy tones, but not that much with heavy dirt ones, and I'm also missing a compressor. I know I could solve this with analogue pedals, it's just I don't want analogue signal in my pedalboard. The other option was to go with ProStage WahryTone, but that's a steep price for a remotely controlled wah pedal with NO other way of programming besides knowing MIDI SYSEX code, having a mobile phone via Bluetooth or via another dedicated and expensive piece of hardware to get USB connectivity. Fantastic ideas that are ruined by poorly thought user interface... same as the Dunlop's Rack Wah, why does it have no MIDI? (*) damn...
> 
> * yah, I know, engineering and tech stuff is expensive, but nevertheless, they could have gone that extra mile... it would probably meant more sales and therefore more money to get a less expensive product...
> 
> @Shask so your experience is with the AxeFX 2, not with the FM3...
> 
> 
> 
> That's awesome, thank you, now if you let me ask you a deeper nerdy question about this... with MIDI expression pedals, one can have 127 levels of input data, meaning the pedals range from 1 at heel to 128 at toe, question is can one assign an ON/OFF function or any other parameter for that matter, anywhere in this range, for example, having a reverb volume ranging from 1=no FX volume to 100=max reverb FX volume and from from 100=max direct volume to 127= minimum direct volume. The effect of this programming would be like from heel until position 100 one would increase the reverb FX/wet volume and from there to 127 one would keep the reverb FX at maximum and gradually kill the dry signal, so to have wet signal only?
> 
> This is something I used to do with my old Roland GP100 so to remove the "Guitar expected tone" out of the equation and achieve a more spacial and atmospheric tone... pretty cool for late night guitar ramblings... add a looper pedal and a fretless guitar with sustainer system and one is traveling the universe...



Yes you can do that. What @budda said. 

I think one of the things that sets Fractal apart is the level of control you can have over everything 




c7spheres said:


> @Deadpool_25 @budda @Shask
> 
> I'm sure I've asked this before but I must ask again about the feel. How do you guy rate the feel of the units? How do they handle the breakup tones when picking really light to really laying into it. Dynamically doees the gain/distortion amount and rolling of volme knobs etc respond well or like is commonwith "normal" amps?



I’m not what you mean by “commonwealth normal amps,” but the FM3 responds exceptionally well to picking dynamics and rolling off volume. That’s one of the first things I check because I’m a big Tool fan and I need to be able to clean things up easily with the volume pedal. I’m also a big John Mayer fan and he plays with a lot of dynamics. 

So again, what @budda said.


----------



## c7spheres

Deadpool_25 said:


> Yes you can do that. What @budda said.
> 
> I think one of the things that sets Fractal apart is the level of control you can have over everything
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I’m not what you mean by “commonwealth normal amps,” but the FM3 responds exceptionally well to picking dynamics and rolling off volume. That’s one of the first things I check because I’m a big Tool fan and I need to be able to clean things up easily with the volume pedal. I’m also a big John Mayer fan and he plays with a lot of dynamics.
> 
> So again, what @budda said.


 
Thanks for the input on this. It's one of the most important aspects of any amp to me. It's great to know it is good with picking dynamics and break up response. - I was saying common with "normal" amps not commonwealth!, so you already answered that : ) I really gotta proof read better. Thanks !


----------



## Shask

c7spheres said:


> ..
> 
> I've been down similar routes with this stuff. The preamps in the other units loops and the tone suck usually have to do with the other units lack of quality OR impedence mismatches etc. Normally processor loops just aren't meant to handle a "real" preamp pumping into them. You can use in-line impedence matchers and isolation transofrmers to match them up so the impedence and levels match up good and everythign sounds "right" but even then they usually aren't going to translate like the preamp is going to directly just because of whatever stuff is going on under the hood. Normally You'd get better results via the TriAxis loop. If you want a good quality 4cm using a lower fidelity unit it's possible but gets expensive really fast. You can use things like switchers and parallel mixers etc. to get it at a really good quality, but to much space and expensive for to little benefit.
> - The best units for this is the Switchblades (supposedly, I never owned one) but they cost A LOT. I've had other SoundSculpture products though and they are top quality stuff for sure.
> 
> - I had a really early version of the ProStage wah and it was just ok for me. I wasn't inspired by it that much honestly. I much prefer my Bad Horsie, the Vox and the standard issue Dunlops I've had in the past.
> 
> - I've owned both versions of the Dunlop rack wah. They're good and all but it more exists due to the convenience of that EQ in there and all the multiple pedal spots. Not realy worth the money, imo. You could get any wah and a switcher to just bring it in and out of the chain as needed. You won't notice tone loss when it's activated because it's a wah tone, but even with a different effect depending on the switcher great results are possible.
> - That being said it is possible (and expensive probably) to midi automate a Dunlop rack wah if really wanted to. You'd just have to figure out the brush and pots used in the control pedal's for the Rack wah or what the rack wants to see at it's input pedal port and dial in a cv to midi controller connected to whatever pedal you like. IMO, way to high priced, way to much gear involved and way to much space and headache taken up just to have this. But it is possible.


I have been thinking about 4CM lately. I wonder if it would actually be better to just use 2 units MIDI synced together. It seems like there are always ground loops, and hum issues and such when trying to do 4CM. I wonder if just having a unit in front of the preamp, and a different unit after the preamp would be easier to work with.


----------



## c7spheres

Shask said:


> I have been thinking about 4CM lately. I wonder if it would actually be better to just use 2 units MIDI synced together. It seems like there are always ground loops, and hum issues and such when trying to do 4CM. I wonder if just having a unit in front of the preamp, and a different unit after the preamp would be easier to work with.


 What units are you talking about?


----------



## Shask

odibrom said:


> @Shask so your experience is with the AxeFX 2, not with the FM3...



Yeah, I don't have a FM3. However, I have had a II for like 7 years, and a Standard for like 3-4 years before that. All the Fractals work pretty similar. The fundamental structure hasn't changed on any of them. They just add stuff, and improve the accuracy and dynamics over time.


----------



## Shask

c7spheres said:


> What units are you talking about?


Just any of them in general, lol.


----------



## c7spheres

Shask said:


> Just any of them in general, lol.


- This stuff really depends on how each piece of gear gets along with each other. Most stuff introduces noise and problems.
- One thing to keep in mind though is the best way to deal with ground hum issues and the like are be eliminating the problems altogether though power sources, good cabling and grounding etc. The reality is that even with all that sometimes those problems are actually exsisting inside the unit's themselves and can't be fixed without some tech know how and modifications.
- The best way to do it other than via tech geek methods is by galvanic isolation, in other words, by using a high quality transformer to isolate the signals and then convert them to the levels and impedences they should be. This usually has to be done and every single point in the chain (like on every iput and output etc.) It's why really high end llop switchers will put buffers on all the inputs and outputs of every loop and why they cost so much money (stuff like Strymon, Custom CAE builds, SoundSculpture, Cornish etc) . Sometimes that doesn't even work entirely but usually help it a lot. in my rig I use a lot ebtech hum elimintors which is exactly what those are. I also used inline transformers for impedence matching (though don't need those now). I also use Lehle transformers on my actualy guitar signals to isolate those between the 2 preamps I split between. Basically a big bulky way of isolating every signal as much as possible. 
- Even if a rig has no problems it's a good idea to have this isolation stlil because the rig only has no problems currently. Go to plug in at some other location and all kinds of this stuff can creep inside. To put it in place will just always offer the best protection from these interferences that can be had. 
- I know even AxeFx's have the same issues because they offer those humbester cables, which aren't doing the same thing as an iso transformer, but sometimes can fix the problem. If a Humbuster style cable don't work then an iso transformer or a better ground scheme is going to be needed. It's all mostly a big pain in the ass.


----------



## budda

PRS S2 stock, FAS HR amp with the gain at 6, bright on and the master a hair past noon. I figured a high gain sound would be a decent demonstration, and it's almost 10:30PM - you get what you get 

https://soundcloud.com/sears-was-here/axe-fx-3-volume-dynamics-test


----------



## c7spheres

@budda 

Thanks so much for putting that up! It really helps me see that it can actually do it, especiialy in the beginning part. That's all the same channel with only volume knob going from lower to higher from what I think I'm hearing right?


----------



## budda

c7spheres said:


> @budda
> 
> Thanks so much for putting that up! It really helps me see that it can actually do it, especiialy in the beginning part. That's all the same channel with only volume knob going from lower to higher from what I think I'm hearing right?



First part is both pickups with the volume around 1, then switch to bridge and open 'er up. I think I have a clip somewhere of my Peters FSM doing the same trick with my old deluxe tele, but I'd have to look . But yes, I didn't change anything about the scene - just the guitar.


----------



## c7spheres

budda said:


> First part is both pickups with the volume around 1, then switch to bridge and open 'er up. I think I have a clip somewhere of my Peters FSM doing the same trick with my old deluxe tele, but I'd have to look . But yes, I didn't change anything about the scene - just the guitar.


 Thanks again. I'm gonna pull the trigger eventually. I'm pretty much sold on checking it out. Can't wait til that time comes.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Shask said:


> I have been thinking about 4CM lately. I wonder if it would actually be better to just use 2 units MIDI synced together. It seems like there are always ground loops, and hum issues and such when trying to do 4CM. I wonder if just having a unit in front of the preamp, and a different unit after the preamp would be easier to work with.



4CM can work great but hum can definitely be an issue. A while back I bought an Ebtech Hum Eliminator and that has worked quite well for me in the past.

I did consider doing 4CM with this FM3 setup so I could still use my amps’ preamps but after a quick A/B between the SK and the FM3, I just don’t see the point. The FM3 into the SK FX loop sounds and feels every bit as good as the amp anyway (which is saying a lot because the SK is amazing). The FM3 manual says this about 4CM:

_“The 4CM is fairly intricate and has questionable benefits compared to [running straight into the FX return].”_

After that A/B test I see why they say that.

Interestingly, on the hum thing, it wasn’t an issue the other day but today during that A/B test I did notice a little hum. I was just running a guitar cable into the FM3 and single TS cable from output 2 of the FM3 to the SK return so I’m not sure where the ground loop (assuming that’s what it was) was coming from. Power maybe. Regardless, I just swapped a Humbuster cable in there instead of the TS cable and the hum was completely gone.


----------



## Deadpool_25

budda said:


> PRS S2 stock, FAS HR amp with the gain at 6, bright on and the master a hair past noon. I figured a high gain sound would be a decent demonstration, and it's almost 10:30PM - you get what you get
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/sears-was-here/axe-fx-3-volume-dynamics-test



Sweet. I like it. Fractal’s newest generation is excellent with dynamics. When I was messing around earlier I used the VH4 Blue Ch 3 model and the Friedman BE model and they both cleaned up incredibly well just rolling the volume back a bit.


----------



## odibrom

@c7spheres What I felt was tone sucking with my Roland GP100 setup was that the GP100 is a fairly old unit (from 1995) and all the Analogue to Digital converters were kind of... old stuff. The thing is, the GP100 by itself sound quite nice (given a little time to understand what works with what and how) because it had only 2 A/D conversions: guitar IN, Sound out to power amp. All the processing was inside and things worked fine. When I was using the Triaxis in the loop I got 2 additional A/D conversions and that was it, 4 in total to suck tone. I only realized te tone sucking when I replaced the GP100 with the G-Force (which isn't that much younger but had better A/D conversions). So I got a bit "scared" of the 4 cable method... I'm just missing its convenience... and I know I'll get a fractal unit later down the road...

I haven't noticed any special hum using either the 4 cable method or series chaining units. I did get some awful noises when mounting thing up and firing them, but then I remember to isolate then in the rack with isolating rubber foam (those used in windows and doors), either at the rack rails and between the units. Some like those, others don't, so it's a bit trial and error, but at the moment I have no hum nor hiss noises.

I also have a straight forward idea on how to build my rig, so I don't want to over do it with patches here and there so I can have it to do what I feel and need it to. This idea passes through the use of the 4 cable method with a multiFX unit and also the Triaxis' loop, but that's something to think about when changing the rig for the next iteration.

@Shask , @budda , @Deadpool_25 , my sincere thanks for your time and patience to sort out my questions. As I think I've said before, I'm in no hurry to do this so I'll let things flow for now...


----------



## c7spheres

odibrom said:


> @c7spheres What I felt was tone sucking with my Roland GP100 setup was that the GP100 is a fairly old unit (from 1995) and all the Analogue to Digital converters were kind of... old stuff. The thing is, the GP100 by itself sound quite nice (given a little time to understand what works with what and how) because it had only 2 A/D conversions: guitar IN, Sound out to power amp. All the processing was inside and things worked fine. When I was using the Triaxis in the loop I got 2 additional A/D conversions and that was it, 4 in total to suck tone. I only realized te tone sucking when I replaced the GP100 with the G-Force (which isn't that much younger but had better A/D conversions). So I got a bit "scared" of the 4 cable method... I'm just missing its convenience... and I know I'll get a fractal unit later down the road...
> 
> I haven't noticed any special hum using either the 4 cable method or series chaining units. I did get some awful noises when mounting thing up and firing them, but then I remember to isolate then in the rack with isolating rubber foam (those used in windows and doors), either at the rack rails and between the units. Some like those, others don't, so it's a bit trial and error, but at the moment I have no hum nor hiss noises.
> 
> I also have a straight forward idea on how to build my rig, so I don't want to over do it with patches here and there so I can have it to do what I feel and need it to. This idea passes through the use of the 4 cable method with a multiFX unit and also the Triaxis' loop, but that's something to think about when changing the rig for the next iteration.
> 
> @Shask , @budda , @Deadpool_25 , my sincere thanks for your time and patience to sort out my questions. As I think I've said before, I'm in no hurry to do this so I'll let things flow for now...


 Thanks for the feedback.
- De-railing this thread just a little more I was going to mention sometimes tone suck, even without having ground issues etc can be hidden in certain anonmalies like phase shifting. - The very slight delays introduced using the 4 cable method or with gear connected in parallel as well (not really with series connections) can cause the timing of the signals to arrive at different times at the mixing points. These very slight delays cause the signal to phase cancel and thus tone suck/phasing is introduced. To make it worse other portions of the signal are amplified causing only certain frequencies to be boosted causing mudd or overload of certain sounds too. By inroducing a slight delay/treatment to the entirety of any signals arriving first (first arriving signal is delayed the longest) you can thus phase align the signals and minimize or eliminate the tone suck. It's something to mess around with. The delay times are gonna be inthe ms range, probably around 0.5 to 4ms max or so. You hvae to listen while doing it to until it "pops' into phase. You can hear and feel it better when it lines up. Even upon success of phase aligning all signals you will still have amplified frequencies of similar signals. _ The basic way to treat the signals is to first go through every signal path individually and get them sounding the absolute best you can, individually. Then don't add another path yet, but get another singal path as perfect as possible indivudually etc. once all the singal paths (front of amp, in the loop etc, parallel loops etc) are sounding as good as possible individually now is the time to start mixing them together using mix levels, wet/dry signals, delay compensation for phase corrections etc. This will get you the best mix you can get with the least phase and noise issues and you will be able to figure out where the noise is coming from as you go too. It's all a big pain in the ass but worth it if you are happy with the results. Mostly only reverb and certain delays or EQ's, compressor should be in the loop part. Anything else can work well in front of the amp too. There are no rules but some things just work better most of the time.

' TLDR, messing around and paying attention to EVERYthing in the signal paths can yelid better results. : )


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

I use the 3 mostly in 4cm and it’s very quiet with humbuster cables. Quieter than the helix it replaced on with the same amp. 

I’ve done direct comparisons of the amp model pre amp to corresponding amp (5153 and JCM800). now the models I have and the ones fractal will have modelled will be different but it is very possible to get them sounding almost identical. 
One not better than the other but I do prefer my amps to the modelled versions but that could be for a number of reasons. 

In a blind test, I don’t think I would notice a difference and an audience wouldn’t (or care). 

I do like having the option to play a different model through a power amp and into a cab and it is handy for recording.


----------



## GoldDragon

Deadpool_25 said:


> 4CM can work great but hum can definitely be an issue. A while back I bought an Ebtech Hum Eliminator and that has worked quite well for me in the past.
> 
> I did consider doing 4CM with this FM3 setup so I could still use my amps’ preamps but after a quick A/B between the SK and the FM3, I just don’t see the point. The FM3 into the SK FX loop sounds and feels every bit as good as the amp anyway (which is saying a lot because the SK is amazing). The FM3 manual says this about 4CM:
> 
> _“The 4CM is fairly intricate and has questionable benefits compared to [running straight into the FX return].”_
> 
> After that A/B test I see why they say that.
> 
> Interestingly, on the hum thing, it wasn’t an issue the other day but today during that A/B test I did notice a little hum. I was just running a guitar cable into the FM3 and single TS cable from output 2 of the FM3 to the SK return so I’m not sure where the ground loop (assuming that’s what it was) was coming from. Power maybe. Regardless, I just swapped a Humbuster cable in there instead of the TS cable and the hum was completely gone.



Does the hum eliminator still work to eliminate loops with the FM3 or do you need to use their proprietary cable?


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

The proprietary cables are easy to make and would recommend them over a hum eliminator as a first step. or you can buy them - you don’t have to buy the ones fractal make. I got mine of amazon for more or less what regular cables cost


----------



## GoldDragon

The Thing Upstairs said:


> The proprietary cables are easy to make and would recommend them over a hum eliminator as a first step. or you can buy them - you don’t have to buy the ones fractal make. I got mine of amazon for more or less what regular cables cost



But does a hum eliminator still work? A new Pyle hum eliminator costs 20 bucks. And I have one.


----------



## Deadpool_25

GoldDragon said:


> Does the hum eliminator still work to eliminate loops with the FM3 or do you need to use their proprietary cable?



Just checked. Yes, the Hum Eliminator works with the FM3. The Humbuster cable seems inconsistent for me. Today, it's reducing the hum from when just using a TS cable but not getting rid of it completely. The Hum Eliminator definitely gets rid of the hum. I may actually put it on my board lol


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

I tried a hum eliminator with my helix in 4cm and it did not help as it wasn’t caused by a ground loop. It was just a bit noisy.


----------



## GoldDragon

Deadpool_25 said:


> Just checked. Yes, the Hum Eliminator works with the FM3. The Humbuster cable seems inconsistent for me. Today, it's reducing the hum from when just using a TS cable but not getting rid of it completely. The Hum Eliminator definitely gets rid of the hum. I may actually put it on my board lol



The only ground loops I haven't solved is when there is some kind of connection between my computer and a tube amp. (Computer USB or audio - FX processor - 4cm w amp) Thats the only time I need the Hum Eliminator.

Just an FX processor with amp is fine. Just an FX processor with computer is fine. 

You might be able to solve it by rerouting power cables..


----------



## Deadpool_25

GoldDragon said:


> The only ground loops I haven't solved is when there is some kind of connection between my computer and a tube amp. (Computer USB or audio - FX processor - 4cm w amp) Thats the only time I need the Hum Eliminator.
> 
> Just an FX processor with amp is fine. Just an FX processor with computer is fine.
> 
> You might be able to solve it by rerouting power cables..



Yeah I’m guessing it was power cables. Was really minor anyway.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Dam I love this thing. Enough so that I'm on a selling spree letting go of a bunch of my pedals. So far I've sold: Timeline, BigSky, El Cap, Dig, Sunset, Blue Sky (Strymon gear sells super fast), and ES8. I have a bunch of other stuff posted and a few more to put on there. I'll keep some of my pedals around though just because pedals are cool lol.


----------



## Mourguitars

Contgrats Deadpool !

Mike


----------



## Meeotch

I wanted to chime in on a few of the topics here. First of all, thanks for your impressions on the FM3...you really got me gasing for Fractal's latest! It's awesome when you find gear that allows you to thin the heard like you have. 

I have been using an FX8 in 4CM with my tube amps for a couple years now, and keep wondering if I should ditch it and try either a rack Axe-Fx III or this new FM3. The FX8 is awesome, but it lacks all the amp modeling which I'm really curious about. 

In regards to 4CM, "intricate" is a good way to put it. I've tried several multi-fx processors in 4CM and they all sucked tone to the point that it bothered me. In addition, getting the levels just right was tricky. The FX8 is the first MFX unit that is completely transparent IMO. They designed it ground up to be the ultimate 4CM board, and it delivers. I'm guessing they stopped production because people didn't value this approach enough to give up the modeling side of things. 

Now as modeling continues to improve, I'm left wondering if I even need a tube preamp anymore? I too have thinned my herd of amps, and I'm down to a pair of Boogies and some Synergy preamp modules. @budda should I ditch my FX8 and go for a III? I know you've had an FX8 in the past, but did you sell it? I think the FX8 shines when you want to gig with your tube amp, but in the studio it's starting to feel unnecessary.


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

Deadpool_25 said:


> Dam I love this thing. Enough so that I'm on a selling spree letting go of a bunch of my pedals. So far I've sold: Timeline, BigSky, El Cap, Dig, Sunset, Blue Sky (Strymon gear sells super fast), and ES8. I have a bunch of other stuff posted and a few more to put on there. I'll keep some of my pedals around though just because pedals are cool lol.



I sold a lot of gear when I bought my AxeFX 3. A Big Sky is on my list of pedals to buy (just because - no real reason or need). check out the plex verb and north church. 
I especially love the north church on my clean sound. Sounds epic. The plex block can be a lot of fun too


----------



## budda

Meeotch said:


> @budda should I ditch my FX8 and go for a III? I know you've had an FX8 in the past, but did you sell it? I think the FX8 shines when you want to gig with your tube amp, but in the studio it's starting to feel unnecessary.



Yes. I sold mine because I needed money to pay stuff off, and because I knew I'd get even more sounds from the FM3 or III. Can't say I've missed it .


----------



## Meeotch

budda said:


> Yes. I sold mine because I needed money to pay stuff off, and because I knew I'd get even more sounds from the FM3 or III. Can't say I've missed it .



Thanks, the only reason I'm still feeling hesitant is because I do like to use digital wah or sometimes compression in front of my amps, and time based effects in the loop - here the FX8 shines. If keen on using an amp block, the III is a no brainer, but with tube amps/4CM I'm still not sure there is a better solution than the FX8.


----------



## budda

Meeotch said:


> Thanks, the only reason I'm still feeling hesitant is because I do like to use digital wah or sometimes compression in front of my amps, and time based effects in the loop - here the FX8 shines. If keen on using an amp block, the III is a no brainer, but with tube amps/4CM I'm still not sure there is a better solution than the FX8.



Should still be able to do that with the fm3. I was runnig non-loop amps, didnt have to worry about it haha.


----------



## Elric

Deadpool_25 said:


> Yeah but my Mac is across the room from my amps and I’ll keep the FM3 on the board mostly so I’d need a super long cable, then I’d have to go back and forth. And if I get together with friends and want to tweak something I want to be comfortable doing so.


Learning the front panel is never gonna hurt you that’s for sure... FWIW, though, on the II and III you can connect it wirelessly to a Mac w/ Bluetooth wireless adapter connected to Axe’s MIDI ports. If the FM3 has MIDI ports I bet it would work. It’s pretty cool.


----------



## c7spheres

Does anyone know of anything at all in the AxeFx III or FM-3 editor's that can not be accessed from the units themselves? What stuff must you use the editor for or else you can't do it? I know (I think) with Fractbot you must use that to do backup files of the unit in order to save all your Ir's an junk in one place etc. Is there anythign else?


----------



## budda

c7spheres said:


> Does anyone know of anything at all in the AxeFx III or FM-3 editor's that can not be accessed from the units themselves? What stuff must you use the editor for or else you can't do it?



It's the other way - the iii (at least) has functions the editor doesnt run.


----------



## c7spheres

budda said:


> It's the other way - the iii (at least) has functions the editor doesnt run.


 Nice. So one can setup all the FC controller stuff direct from front panel then. Good to know as I'd likely be a front panel guy after doing my initial programming with the editor. After that it's likely just minor tweaks aor a thing here and there.


----------



## budda

c7spheres said:


> Nice. So one can setup all the FC controller stuff direct from front panel then. Good to know as I'd likely be a front panel guy after doing my initial programming with the editor. After that it's likely just minor tweaks aor a thing here and there.



I dont have an fc, but i'll ask a buddy and get back to you.


----------



## c7spheres

budda said:


> I dont have an fc, but i'll ask a buddy and get back to you.


 Thanks man.


----------



## Fluence of Shred

c7spheres said:


> Nice. So one can setup all the FC controller stuff direct from front panel then. Good to know as I'd likely be a front panel guy after doing my initial programming with the editor. After that it's likely just minor tweaks aor a thing here and there.


Yes you can do it from the panel and or editor ...very versatilee


----------



## budda

c7spheres said:


> Thanks man.



"Yea. You can edit all footswitch functions from the hardware or from the editor. You need an FC attached though to see the edit features menu."


----------



## c7spheres

budda said:


> "Yea. You can edit all footswitch functions from the hardware or from the editor. You need an FC attached though to see the edit features menu."


 Right on! Thanks for the info. I like the self contained no computer option. It just seems like once you get your core tones then the rest would be while jamming and experimenting one off type things. Like, Oh I think I'll try a rotary speaker on that part and then just go over to the front panel and add it in rather than booting up computer. Good stuff. 
- I was checking out the few videos of the Tone Bender models in the AxeFx III and they seem ok, but I can tell on certain parts it has some magic in there. I know Tone Benders and Fuzz's are probably one of the hardest things for a modeller to emulate but the Axe seems to be holding it's own. I try to see past the players and what they're playing a lot because I'm more interested in certain things and how they are playing and how the Axe is reacting to that. A lot of people don't play with dynamics and it translates, then they suddenly hit a heavy chord hard with the pick and the tone bender comes alive and I'm thinking yep, they just ain't doing it right, but the Axe can do it. Very promising stuff.


----------



## Bearitone

has anyone here with an AxeIII variant tried to get Norma Jean style octave down tones? They get some sick tones using a TREX Octavius.


----------



## budda

Bearitone said:


> has anyone here with an AxeIII variant tried to get Norma Jean style octave down tones? They get some sick tones using a TREX Octavius.



I havent but I imagine it's not too difficult with the pitch parameters.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Meeotch said:


> I wanted to chime in on a few of the topics here. First of all, thanks for your impressions on the FM3...you really got me gasing for Fractal's latest! It's awesome when you find gear that allows you to thin the heard like you have.
> 
> I have been using an FX8 in 4CM with my tube amps for a couple years now, and keep wondering if I should ditch it and try either a rack Axe-Fx III or this new FM3. The FX8 is awesome, but it lacks all the amp modeling which I'm really curious about.
> 
> In regards to 4CM, "intricate" is a good way to put it. I've tried several multi-fx processors in 4CM and they all sucked tone to the point that it bothered me. In addition, getting the levels just right was tricky. The FX8 is the first MFX unit that is completely transparent IMO. They designed it ground up to be the ultimate 4CM board, and it delivers. I'm guessing they stopped production because people didn't value this approach enough to give up the modeling side of things.
> 
> Now as modeling continues to improve, I'm left wondering if I even need a tube preamp anymore? I too have thinned my herd of amps, and I'm down to a pair of Boogies and some Synergy preamp modules. @budda should I ditch my FX8 and go for a III? I know you've had an FX8 in the past, but did you sell it? I think the FX8 shines when you want to gig with your tube amp, but in the studio it's starting to feel unnecessary.



I had an FX8 a couple (few?) years ago. Great unit. I sold it and went back to normal pedals but just because I like the vibe of them. Just reach down and twist a knob, ya know? It was a fantastic unit though. I did get some hum in 4CM so I went with Humbuster cables and that helped. 



The Thing Upstairs said:


> I sold a lot of gear when I bought my AxeFX 3. A Big Sky is on my list of pedals to buy (just because - no real reason or need). check out the plex verb and north church.
> I especially love the north church on my clean sound. Sounds epic. The plex block can be a lot of fun too



The Plex block is awesome. It can be a delay or reverb (or something in between). Very cool. I really like the verbs in here too. They have really stepped those up. They’re CPU hogs but you still have plenty of space because a lot of other blocks don’t take up much room.


----------



## budda

So @Deadpool_25 a month in, what are your thoughts?


----------



## Jeff

I’m within “two hours” on signup day of the guy that got his invite Friday, so I should get mine this week. The HP version.


----------



## Jeff

How many presets can the FM3 hold? One annoying limitation of the Stomp is that it’s only got 128, which goes fast when you have several per song.


----------



## Shask

Jeff said:


> How many presets can the FM3 hold? One annoying limitation of the Stomp is that it’s only got 128, which goes fast when you have several per song.


I wonder why you are not using the Snapshots on the Stomp, which would be scenes on the Fractal.

I would think it would be better to use 1 preset per song, and then use snapshots/scenes for the different tones within that song.


----------



## budda

Jeff said:


> How many presets can the FM3 hold? One annoying limitation of the Stomp is that it’s only got 128, which goes fast when you have several per song.



With 4 channels on nearly every block, odds are you wont need a ton of presets. Scenes and blocks will go far.


----------



## Jeff

Shask said:


> I wonder why you are not using the Snapshots on the Stomp, which would be scenes on the Fractal.
> 
> I would think it would be better to use 1 preset per song, and then use snapshots/scenes for the different tones within that song.



Not really how I work, and with the Stomp lacking the ability to have channels like the FM3, it’s a big limitation. I can’t go from a clean Mark IV to a lead channel Mark IV on the stomp, because it lacks the DSP to load both amp models.


----------



## Deadpool_25

budda said:


> So @Deadpool_25 a month in, what are your thoughts?



Love it, man. I’m getting more used to doing stuff on the front panel even though I actually keep it connected to the computer anyway. My original plan was to mainly use it through my tube amps but it sounds good enough through the Yamaha HS7 monitors that I haven’t felt it was necessary.

The UI is pretty complex and does have a learning curve. I’m getting used to it though. I’m waiting for them to port over the performance screen. I think that might make it feel a little simpler.



Jeff said:


> How many presets can the FM3 hold? One annoying limitation of the Stomp is that it’s only got 128, which goes fast when you have several per song.



Edit: 512


----------



## Mourguitars

Im playing mine thru my 8" monitors and 10" sub.....man does it sound fantastic , im going to just keep playing it thru this...i have it dialed in and looks nice on the desk top

I really love the clean tones in stereo, wish i could get my rack to sound that good, but pretty happy with the unit 

Mike


----------



## sakeido

I had planned on passing on the FM3 but just got my invite for the version with headphone plugs. It's still kinda tempting although I just played a gig with VST amps and effects running in Plugin Alliance's Gig Performer on my laptop and I was super happy with the tone I had. 

OP, you still lovin the FM3? Did you ever use VST amp sims much? If so, which do you prefer?


----------



## budda

sakeido said:


> I had planned on passing on the FM3 but just got my invite for the version with headphone plugs. It's still kinda tempting although I just played a gig with VST amps and effects running in Plugin Alliance's Gig Performer on my laptop and I was super happy with the tone I had.
> 
> OP, you still lovin the FM3? Did you ever use VST amp sims much? If so, which do you prefer?



Get it, because you can sell it pretty quickly if you decide you dont want it anymore.


----------



## sakeido

budda said:


> Get it, because you can sell it pretty quickly if you decide you dont want it anymore.



lol that'd be my normal solution but I just bought a welding machine and my girlfriend's out of work with only one CERB payment left so.... I dunnoooooo


----------



## budda

sakeido said:


> lol that'd be my normal solution but I just bought a welding machine and my girlfriend's out of work with only one CERB payment left so.... I dunnoooooo



Aah.


----------



## c7spheres

Mourguitars said:


> Im playing mine thru my 8" monitors and 10" sub.....man does it sound fantastic , im going to just keep playing it thru this...i have it dialed in and looks nice on the desk top
> 
> I really love the clean tones in stereo, wish i could get my rack to sound that good, but pretty happy with the unit
> 
> Mike



Now that the monitors are part of your sound you could model the modeller going through the monitors and capture that rig. You'll need Ir's and tone matches for the monitors. - Maybe Fractal will start adding speaker monitor cab blocks. Just kidding, (sorta) but the name Fractal is becoming more relevant to this company now. Think of all those rabbit holes one could go down! : )


----------



## Deadpool_25

sakeido said:


> I had planned on passing on the FM3 but just got my invite for the version with headphone plugs. It's still kinda tempting although I just played a gig with VST amps and effects running in Plugin Alliance's Gig Performer on my laptop and I was super happy with the tone I had.
> 
> OP, you still lovin the FM3? Did you ever use VST amp sims much? If so, which do you prefer?



Yeah, absolutely loving it. The only amp sims I've used are the NDSP Plini (bought), Nolly (trial), and Abasi (trial). I really liked all of those but the Plini suits me best of them. I'd take the FM3 over them in an instant, but they do sound very good.


----------



## cyb

I received an FM3 w/ headphone jack invite a few days ago. Now that I know my job situation is stable after a few months of covid uncertainty, I went ahead and ordered one, thanks in part to the impressions from this thread and a few videos I watched. I'm really looking forward to comparing it to my kemper. The kemper sounds great but I hate the interface and I'm tired of profile chasing. I prefer building presets from scratch instead of relying on someone else's profiling skills. This will be the first Fractal product I've owned since I had an Axe-Fx standard nearly 10 years ago and sold it before really learning how to use it. I always regretted that.


----------



## Deadpool_25

So I recently had a GAS attack and was checking out the EVH amps. Long story short, the FM3 cured the GAS. Easily.

Running the FM3 through my Invective’s FX loop and into my custom V30/Creamback 2x12, the tones and feel are off the charts. It’s also incredibly easy to keep the levels as low (or high) as you want. 

I keep saying my perfect tube amp has a Fenderish clean, a Marshallish crunch (ideally ranging from JTM45, to Plexi, to JCM800), and a 5150 lead. Well, with the FM3 I get all those tones. 

Also, running it through the FX loop I have all the feel of a tube amp. After much experimentation I really think the “tube feel” of a tube amp comes from the power section (including the transformers) and its interaction with the speaker. With FM3 through the FX loop I’m getting the preamp tones of the modeled amps and the power amp/speaker feel. It’s just the best of both worlds (no pun intended).

Amd surprisingly, this is all with very minimal (sometimes NO) tweaking. Loving this MF’er.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Deadpool_25 said:


> So I recently had a GAS attack and was checking out the EVH amps. Long story short, the FM3 cured the GAS. Easily.



Ah. Here’s the post I was looking for. I knew there was a reason I didn’t buy that 5153 EL34 a while back. Guess I should’ve found this _before_ I pulled the trigger on that amp. Shit. Guess when I get home I need to fire up the FM3-into-tube-amp rig.


----------



## dhgrind

so trying the fm3 as the preamp through an amp-head and cab, i cant seem to get that same chunk/response of the evh5150, any tips to make it sound/feel better or is it just not going to work like that?


----------



## Deadpool_25

Deadpool_25 said:


> Ah. Here’s the post I was looking for. I knew there was a reason I didn’t buy that 5153 EL34 a while back. Guess I should’ve found this _before_ I pulled the trigger on that amp. Shit. Guess when I get home I need to fire up the FM3-into-tube-amp rig.



Well...if you look at when I posted that amd then look at my NAD threads....uhhh...oops? 

Still, the point remains, the FM3 into a tube amp is phenomenal. Don’t mind my gearwhoring.


----------



## Deadpool_25

dhgrind said:


> so trying the fm3 as the preamp through an amp-head and cab, i cant seem to get that same chunk/response of the evh5150, any tips to make it sound/feel better or is it just not going to work like that?



What is the sag setting on the FM3 model you’re using?


----------



## dhgrind

Deadpool_25 said:


> What is the sag setting on the FM3 model you’re using?



I turned off power amp sim since it’s using the power section from the amp. Is there a pre-amp sag ?


----------



## MASS DEFECT

You shouldn't be using the sag settings when you are using tube power amps. You are right just using the preamp models.


----------



## laxu

Afaik just turning the poweramp sim off from global settings is the same thing as turning the sag control to zero. I'd look into your input/output levels instead.


----------



## viifox

Still debating if i should pick one of these up, especially since i'm getting satisfactory results with the Neural sims
Is there a big enough difference in tone to justify its 1K price tag?


----------



## Mr_Marty

viifox said:


> Still debating if i should pick one of these up, especially since i'm getting satisfactory results with the Neural sims
> Is there a big enough difference in tone to justify its 1K price tag?


IMO nothing sounds better than Fractal's amp modeling. I tried Neural's plugins and they're pretty good but not on the same level. They're good if you are into the Nolly/Plini type sounds with either heavy distortion or pristine clean with nothing in between. For edge of breakup, classic rock tones, etc. nothing matches Fractal except maybe Kemper.


----------



## budda

viifox said:


> Still debating if i should pick one of these up, especially since i'm getting satisfactory results with the Neural sims
> Is there a big enough difference in tone to justify its 1K price tag?



What do you need out of the equipment? 

The effects in the FM3 alone would be over $1k to go out and buy individually, but if you're just after a couple of clean tones and a couple high gain tones then maybe not.

But if the Neural stuff is "satisfactory" and you're looking for "just lost 4 hours to playing this one tone I've dialled up" then yeah buy an FM3.


----------



## Deadpool_25

dhgrind said:


> I turned off power amp sim since it’s using the power section from the amp. Is there a pre-amp sag ?



Ypu did the right thing intuitively. I did the same thing. But I found it sounded fatter with the sag set to 0.1. So expiriment with that a little and see if it helps.


----------



## Deadpool_25

viifox said:


> Still debating if i should pick one of these up, especially since i'm getting satisfactory results with the Neural sims
> Is there a big enough difference in tone to justify its 1K price tag?



Having used both side by side: _to me,_ the FM3 sounds and feels noticeably better. But the NDSP stuff sounds really good. Because I was new to using plugins, it took me a bit to find the right settings for my computer so I was initially dealing with significant latency. Even after that, and using FM3 as an interface instead of my old M-Track the FM3 still sounded and felt better.

Maybe the feel difference could be caused by the differences in signal chain. Even though there’s a USB from FM3 to the Mac, the FM3 signal chain is basically:
Guitar > FM3 >monitors 

The plugins are:
Guitar > FM3 > Mac > plugin > FM3 > monitors

One thing cool about fractal gear is it holds value exceptionally well so you could give it a shot without losing much/anything.


----------



## Randy

viifox said:


> Still debating if i should pick one of these up, especially since i'm getting satisfactory results with the Neural sims
> Is there a big enough difference in tone to justify its 1K price tag?



I think that's a matter of how much you already have spent on your Neural sims. 

These days there are kinda diminishing returns on buying like, two or three different versions of the same tone (one company's 5150 versus another for example). If you do all your music stuff in the studio and you're just A/Bing one amp to another after you already have paid a few hundred bucks for plugins, to me idk if I see the value in buying the FM3.

That's a totally different story if you're considering gigging or jamming with people outside of your studio. 

It's also a different story if you haven't actually spent any money on plugins yet, as the FM3 actually had resale value and plugins don't, so if you decide to move on, you can retrieve at least some of your investment. FM3s are still selling for more used than they do new but once they anomaly wears off, you'll see some tapering off on resale down the line but a lot of value (even if you consider it like a rental) between now and then, especially considering it's very likely you'll be getting added amps and features over that period of time that you'd be paying for one effect at a time in the plugin ecosystem.


----------



## viifox

Thanks guys! Definitely some really good pointers here.

I'm more of a bread and butter guitarist, so i don't need a bunch of different amps and fx. I also would only be using it for recording, so maybe the Neural sims are the way to go, at least for the time being.

Out of curiosity, can you use the Neural cabs with the FM3?


----------



## Deadpool_25

You know, in general and in this context the FM3 is an insane value. How much would it cost to buy every NDSP plugin? And after that, how many amps/cabs/effects would you have available? A lot less than FM3. And it’s not quite as simple to mix and match. What if you want a pedal from Cali, an amp from Nolly, the delay from Plini, and the reverb from Abasi?


----------



## Deadpool_25

viifox said:


> Thanks guys! Definitely some really good pointers here.
> 
> I'm more of a bread and butter guitarist, so i don't need a bunch of different amps and fx. I also would only be using it for recording, so maybe the Neural sims are the way to go, at least for the time being.
> 
> Out of curiosity, can you use the Neural cabs with the FM3?



I’d assume they’re pretty standard IR files? You should be able to import them, right? Hmm


----------



## viifox

Deadpool_25 said:


> I’d assume they’re pretty standard IR files? You should be able to import them, right? Hmm


Either that, or create an audio track in your daw, load up a NDSP plugin, and just turn off the amp itself while keeping the plugin still activated?

Honestly not sure, lol!


----------



## laxu

Deadpool_25 said:


> You know, in general and in this context the FM3 is an insane value. How much would it cost to buy every NDSP plugin? And after that, how many amps/cabs/effects would you have available? A lot less than FM3. And it’s not quite as simple to mix and match. What if you want a pedal from Cali, an amp from Nolly, the delay from Plini, and the reverb from Abasi?



The way most people use their modelers is that they pick a handful of amp and cab sims they like and roll with those rather than use every option available. That's not all that different from just buying whichever plugin you like. I could do most things with just the NeuralDSP Nolly or ML Sound Labs ML5 plugin. Those were something like 50-60 euros per plugin during the last Black Friday sale. Or you could just buy Line6 Helix Native for a few hundred and have a plugin that surpasses what the FM3 can do in anything but amp model tweakability.

For me the NeuralDSP plugins are hit and miss. I liked Plini, Nolly and Fortin Nameless but not enough to buy any of them. I think the real good thing about NeuralDSP plugins is the presets really. There are some very good sounds to be had so you don't have to figure it all out yourself. I felt that the best sounds on those were because of the way the cab sims were set up rather than because the modeling itself was exceptional. I took the time to see if I could get similar sounds using the plugins I already had with the MIKKO cab sim plugin and lo and when I set up the cab sim to similar settings that the NDSP plugins had I got pretty similar tones using Helix Native or ML5.

I would instantly buy an Axe-Fx plugin if Fractal made one but I just don't see myself buying any more of their hardware units as I don't like working on them using the hardware alone. That's why my hardware units are a Line6 Helix Floor and NeuralDSP Quad Cortex on preorder.


----------



## MatrixClaw

Got my FM3 this week and am completely blown away. I owned the Ultra and II when it came out and both of them needed a lot of work to get sounding good. This thing sounds amazing, it's the first time I've used a modeler and scrolled through just the presets and enjoy almost every single one of them. I was planning on this being my recording option instead of micing my amps and using it mostly for the effects when jamming through them... Now I'm looking to buy a Line 6 PowerCab and play it through that, instead. For the first time in... ever — I'm actually considering selling all my amps and switching to modeling. It's that good.


----------



## Mr_Marty

MatrixClaw said:


> Got my FM3 this week and am completely blown away. I owned the Ultra and II when it came out and both of them needed a lot of work to get sounding good. This thing sounds amazing, it's the first time I've used a modeler and scrolled through just the presets and enjoy almost every single one of them. I was planning on this being my recording option instead of micing my amps and using it mostly for the effects when jamming through them... Now I'm looking to buy a Line 6 PowerCab and play it through that, instead. For the first time in... ever — I'm actually considering selling all my amps and switching to modeling. It's that good.


Yup, people who haven't used an Axe-Fx III or an FM3 don't understand. I think it was somewhere around Version 9 on the Axe-Fx III that something changed radically. It went from being a very good modeler to 'holy [email protected] this thing sounds just like a tube amp'. I don't know what changed exactly, something about plate impedances or some other techno-speak that I don't understand but it's just darned good.

As far as the interface goes, complaints about it are overblown. It takes a little bit of time to learn it but once you do it's logical and fast.


----------



## MatrixClaw

Mr_Marty said:


> Yup, people who haven't used an Axe-Fx III or an FM3 don't understand. I think it was somewhere around Version 9 on the Axe-Fx III that something changed radically. It went from being a very good modeler to 'holy [email protected] this thing sounds just like a tube amp'. I don't know what changed exactly, something about plate impedances or some other techno-speak that I don't understand but it's just darned good.
> 
> As far as the interface goes, complaints about it are overblown. It takes a little bit of time to learn it but once you do it's logical and fast.


Indeed. There's a preset around the #40 mark that I got to and I did a palm mute on the top strings and actually heard the "boom" that comes back in a real amp and was like: 

There's a Bassman preset on there... I think #72? That sounds AMAZING for blues. Like, better than any low gain amp I've ever owned or played through, amazing. Actually, where I was expecting this to excel was at the high gain sounds and I'd have to still keep some lower gain amps around to get that sexy power tube saturation for blues, but this thing sounds great on every genre. Never has a piece of gear inspired me so much to play. I only wish it had more footswitches, but I can always expand it!


----------



## Deadpool_25

MatrixClaw said:


> Got my FM3 this week and am completely blown away. I owned the Ultra and II when it came out and both of them needed a lot of work to get sounding good. This thing sounds amazing, it's the first time I've used a modeler and scrolled through just the presets and enjoy almost every single one of them. I was planning on this being my recording option instead of micing my amps and using it mostly for the effects when jamming through them... Now I'm looking to buy a Line 6 PowerCab and play it through that, instead. For the first time in... ever — I'm actually considering selling all my amps and switching to modeling. It's that good.



Nice. Yeah it’s an amazing sounding and feeling unit. The UI is, like @laxu said, sometimes a barrier. Outside of that I love it. 

I kinda keep parroting it, but try it through a good FX loop before springing for a powercab.


----------



## budda

Deadpool_25 said:


> Nice. Yeah it’s an amazing sounding and feeling unit. The UI is, like @laxu said, sometimes a barrier. Outside of that I love it.
> 
> I kinda keep parroting it, but try it through a good FX loop before springing for a powercab.



Unless you dont have an fx loop to try


----------



## Deadpool_25

budda said:


> Unless you dont have an fx loop to try



No, no. That’s just YOU. @MatrixClaw isnt that crazy.


Is he...?


----------



## MatrixClaw

Deadpool_25 said:


> Nice. Yeah it’s an amazing sounding and feeling unit. The UI is, like @laxu said, sometimes a barrier. Outside of that I love it.
> 
> I kinda keep parroting it, but try it through a good FX loop before springing for a powercab.


Used it with my Magnum 44 power amp today through my little 1x12 cab with a V30 in it today. Sounds great. I'll have to try it through the 4x12 tomorrow but there's definitely an appeal to using the tiny cab.

I was thinking of trying it through the FX Loop on my Trem-O-Verb and see if it's any better, but I've gotta carve out some more time to be able to try them both simultaneously. Mostly, I want the powered cab because I could use a bass into it, as well as use it as a keyboard amp for my wife, since she wants to learn piano. Plus, if I get a 2x12 I could run the FM3 stereo, which is cool.



Deadpool_25 said:


> No, no. That’s just YOU. @MatrixClaw isnt that crazy.
> 
> 
> Is he...?


I mean, I'm not gonna lie - I can't remember the last time I used an FX loop


----------



## Deadpool_25

Not using it in a while isn’t the same as not having it.


----------



## Mathemagician

Sigh. I’m on the waitlist now.


----------



## narad

Mathemagician said:


> Sigh. I’m on the waitlist now.



Yea, Deadpool's good on the sell. I'm kind of considering it.


----------



## runbirdman

Between @budda and @Deadpool_25 I couldn’t resist either. The wait list is moving pretty fast. I joined the wait list on 10/24 and I got my invitation on 12/3. I also ordered the FC6 and EV2. I’ve been considering cancelling my Invective order anyways so I moved the money from that order into a SYN-5050 that I’m planning on using with a stereo 2x12 setup. Hopefully I’ll get everything in this week.


----------



## budda

runbirdman said:


> Between @budda and @Deadpool_25 I couldn’t resist either. The wait list is moving pretty fast. I joined the wait list on 10/24 and I got my invitation on 12/3. I also ordered the FC6 and EV2. I’ve been considering cancelling my Invective order anyways so I moved the money from that order into a SYN-5050 that I’m planning on using with a stereo 2x12 setup. Hopefully I’ll get everything in this week.



Read the fm3 manual now, then again tomorrow.


----------



## Mathemagician

narad said:


> Yea, Deadpool's good on the sell. I'm kind of considering it.



I just want a good 5150, and I don’t want to just buy one amp. Because then I’ll have to buy them all. As these things go.


----------



## narad

Mathemagician said:


> I just want a good 5150, and I don’t want to just buy one amp. Because then I’ll have to buy them all. As these things go.



Been there. And live there.


----------



## SamSam

viifox said:


> Out of curiosity, can you use the Neural cabs with the FM3?



You can use the Cali Cabs and any cabs which you can locate within the files. Uploaded all of the ones I could find into my FM3


----------



## Deadpool_25

runbirdman said:


> I also ordered the FC6 and EV2. I’ve been considering cancelling my Invective order anyways so I moved the money from that order into a SYN-5050...



I’m so conflicted about this post. 

Not really. Congrats! Sounds like a sweet setup. I hope you love it. 


Mathemagician said:


> I just want a good 5150, and I don’t want to just buy one amp. Because then I’ll have to buy them all. As these things go.





narad said:


> Been there. And live there.



@Mathemagician I have a lease right here. Just sign on the line at the bottom...

And @narad, your rent is due.


----------



## Mathemagician

No. First it’s just a 5153. Then it’s well a Driftwood is different. Then it’s like well I saw a deal on a Friedman. Then you know what I need a British style amp for the 3 times a year I go for 80’s hair metal tones.

It’s never just one. It’s like pringles.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Yup. That’s why I’m considering getting the Badlander...it never ends.


----------



## Deadpool_25

I actually hadn't used the FM3 in a while since I've been messing with my tube amps. Yesterday I was thinking, let's just run something into the interface and play through the computer. So I built a little pedalboard: tuner > Volante > Flint > Iridium. I ran that little setup through the interface and it was decent. Not as inspiring as I remembered though. I resolved to plug into the FM3 tonight. I just picked up a Strat and used the Super Verb preset...and got lost for like half an hour. Man I really need to just use the FM3 and STOP BUYING AMPS.


----------



## Jon Pearson

Deadpool_25 said:


> I actually hadn't used the FM3 in a while since I've been messing with my tube amps. Yesterday I was thinking, let's just run something into the interface and play through the computer. So I built a little pedalboard: tuner > Volante > Flint > Iridium. I ran that little setup through the interface and it was decent. Not as inspiring as I remembered though. I resolved to plug into the FM3 tonight. I just picked up a Strat and used the Super Verb preset...and got lost for like half an hour. Man I really need to just use the FM3 and STOP BUYING AMPS.



But amps are neat.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Jon Pearson said:


> But amps are neat.



You are not wrong.


----------



## Jon Pearson

Deadpool_25 said:


> You are not wrong.



I've had an Axe III for a year now, and I've bought 4 amps in that time, most of them just because they were good deals - I'm bidding on another as we speak. Box go bbbrrrrzzzzzkkkeraaang


----------



## Randy

whynotboth.jpg


----------



## MatrixClaw

Deadpool_25 said:


> I actually hadn't used the FM3 in a while since I've been messing with my tube amps. Yesterday I was thinking, let's just run something into the interface and play through the computer. So I built a little pedalboard: tuner > Volante > Flint > Iridium. I ran that little setup through the interface and it was decent. Not as inspiring as I remembered though. I resolved to plug into the FM3 tonight. I just picked up a Strat and used the Super Verb preset...and got lost for like half an hour. Man I really need to just use the FM3 and STOP BUYING AMPS.


I'm seriously considering selling all my amps and just buying a PowerCab for the FM3. Am I crazy? 

I did a little experiment today:

I tried to A/B the FM3 and the 5150 III as scientifically as possible (both into 1x12s with a V30 in them) and it's definitely close but not quite the same. If I was picking objectively, I'd probably say the FM3 sounds better. If I'm going off accuracy, the real amp has some unique stuff going on in the midrange. It's like the low mids are voiced in a slightly different range. It sounds almost hollow in comparison, but bigger at the same time. It's scooped more in the high mids and more present in the low mids.

Interestingly enough, while I found most of the other models to have more gain than the real amps would, the FM3 actually has less on the 5150 III 50w Blue Channel. I had to have the gain at around 7.5 to get the same saturation as the real amp at 6. However, the model doesn't really have the crisp high end the real amp has unless it's boosted. I don't generally boost amps and love the EVH without it, but the FM3 simply sounded closer to the real deal with the TS808 in front.

Of course, the differences I'm hearing could also be explained by the power amp I'm using - a $100 EHX 44 Magnum. I've heard it's not the most transparent poweramp. I do have an Alto TS112A I plan to plug it into tomorrow and use the cabinet modeling through. Maybe I can get closer that way, there's just something about the 5150 III that sounds more unique that the FM3 isn't doing but maybe with some more tweaking I can get it there. Though, like I said, if I was just hearing the tones without comparing the actual amps, I'd probably find the FM3 to be better sounding, it's much more full while still retaining the same general voicing. There's just something fun about the EVH that makes it a bit more exciting to play through in the room.


----------



## Mathemagician

MatrixClaw said:


> I'm seriously considering selling all my amps and just buying a PowerCab for the FM3. Am I crazy?
> 
> I did a little experiment today:
> 
> I tried to A/B the FM3 and the 5150 III as scientifically as possible (both into 1x12s with a V30 in them) and it's definitely close but not quite the same. If I was picking objectively, I'd probably say the FM3 sounds better. If I'm going off accuracy, the real amp has some unique stuff going on in the midrange. It's like the low mids are voiced in a slightly different range. It sounds almost hollow in comparison, but bigger at the same time. It's scooped more in the high mids and more present in the low mids.
> 
> Interestingly enough, while I found most of the other models to have more gain than the real amps would, the FM3 actually has less on the 5150 III 50w Blue Channel. I had to have the gain at around 7.5 to get the same saturation as the real amp at 6. However, the model doesn't really have the crisp high end the real amp has unless it's boosted. I don't generally boost amps and love the EVH without it, but the FM3 simply sounded closer to the real deal with the TS808 in front.
> 
> Of course, the differences I'm hearing could also be explained by the power amp I'm using - a $100 EHX 44 Magnum. I've heard it's not the most transparent poweramp. I do have an Alto TS112A I plan to plug it into tomorrow and use the cabinet modeling through. Maybe I can get closer that way, there's just something about the 5150 III that sounds more unique that the FM3 isn't doing but maybe with some more tweaking I can get it there. Though, like I said, if I was just hearing the tones without comparing the actual amps, I'd probably find the FM3 to be better sounding, it's much more full while still retaining the same general voicing. There's just something fun about the EVH that makes it a bit more exciting to play through in the room.



This is the kind of hard-hitting journalism we need right now. 

I’m wondering how the FM3 would sound through a more expensive/transparent power amp like the Seymour Duncan power stage series or better.


----------



## MatrixClaw

Mathemagician said:


> This is the kind of hard-hitting journalism we need right now.
> 
> I’m wondering how the FM3 would sound through a more expensive/transparent power amp like the Seymour Duncan power stage series or better.


Me too. It definitely sounds killer through a real guitar cab but if I'm going to buy another power amp, it's going to be a powered cabinet like the Line 6 PowerCab, so I can play bass through it as well (I have the Alto bu.

I'm curious how close the FM3 can get to the EVH if I bypass the power amp modeling and run it into the EVH power amp, instead. I'm betting it gets super close.

Gonna try A/Bing the 2 channel Recto model with my Trem-O-Verb tomorrow and see what happens. I think it'll get closer. We'll see.


----------



## boltzthrower

I'm gonna chime in on this A/B'ing convo here. I've been playing the Axe Standard through a real tube power amp (VHT 2/90/2) and real cab as my main rig for nearly a decade. Before that my setup was the same except with an Engl 570 as the pre. I switched fully over to the Standard as a preamp after I got it to sound not only extremely close to the 570 but actually better than it, imo. The Axe is just so tweakable, it's capable of getting EXTREMELY tight (big points for me) without sounding thin and while also having pretty much no noise whatsoever (which is not possible with "real" amps, in my experience). 

I've now had the FM3 for about 2 months and as far as its use as just a preamp with a real power amp & cab, it doesn't sound any better than the Standard (except for maybe some of the effects) but it has some awesome new features, useful new amp models and the form factor is great. Anyway, I've spent countless hours tweaking these Fractal products to sound like "real" preamps and I can tell you, they have a certain sound to them that is ever present no matter which amp model you're using. IMO, that certain sound is not necessarily a bad thing, unless you really need that warmth (for lack of a better term) that comes from analog gear. I just can't get the fractal products to impart the warmth that my "real" preamps have. The Axe actually cuts better in the mix but that has a lot to do with EQ and tightness tweaks I made to it after initially making it sound extremely close to the E 570. The fractal products also help create space in the mix because they're not noisy like "real" amps. This warmth thing I'm talking about, it's not just something I hear with the amp in the room but I can hear it on my recorded tracks, too. So back to what I said about the Axe sounding better as a pre than my E 570, I should clarify that the Axe doesn't sound better in every way, the E 570 has that warmth thing goin' on which is desirable, but the Axe/FM3 sounds better overall for the tone I'm going for due to being so tweakable. 

I don't come across many people online using the Fractal products as a preamp into real power amp/cab and I'm curious if those who do can hear what I'm talking about with the lack of warmth. It's like there's this sterility to the Axe FX products, which is actually useful for my tight high gain rhythm tone, but at the same time I miss that classic warm sound/feel I get with actual analog preamps.


----------



## Meeotch

boltzthrower said:


> I'm gonna chime in on this A/B'ing convo here. I've been playing the Axe Standard through a real tube power amp (VHT 2/90/2) and real cab as my main rig for nearly a decade. Before that my setup was the same except with an Engl 570 as the pre. I switched fully over to the Standard as a preamp after I got it to sound not only extremely close to the 570 but actually better than it, imo. The Axe is just so tweakable, it's capable of getting EXTREMELY tight (big points for me) without sounding thin and while also having pretty much no noise whatsoever (which is not possible with "real" amps, in my experience).
> 
> I've now had the FM3 for about 2 months and as far as its use as just a preamp with a real power amp & cab, it doesn't sound any better than the Standard (except for maybe some of the effects) but it has some awesome new features, useful new amp models and the form factor is great. Anyway, I've spent countless hours tweaking these Fractal products to sound like "real" preamps and I can tell you, they have a certain sound to them that is ever present no matter which amp model you're using. IMO, that certain sound is not necessarily a bad thing, unless you really need that warmth (for lack of a better term) that comes from analog gear. I just can't get the fractal products to impart the warmth that my "real" preamps have. The Axe actually cuts better in the mix but that has a lot to do with EQ and tightness tweaks I made to it after initially making it sound extremely close to the E 570. The fractal products also help create space in the mix because they're not noisy like "real" amps. This warmth thing I'm talking about, it's not just something I hear with the amp in the room but I can hear it on my recorded tracks, too. So back to what I said about the Axe sounding better as a pre than my E 570, I should clarify that the Axe doesn't sound better in every way, the E 570 has that warmth thing goin' on which is desirable, but the Axe/FM3 sounds better overall for the tone I'm going for due to being so tweakable.
> 
> I don't come across many people online using the Fractal products as a preamp into real power amp/cab and I'm curious if those who do can hear what I'm talking about with the lack of warmth. It's like there's this sterility to the Axe FX products, which is actually useful for my tight high gain rhythm tone, but at the same time I miss that classic warm sound/feel I get with actual analog preamps.



Thanks for your perspective! There's been a lot of Axe III praise going around and it's made me seriously consider the leap. I'm in the midst of a Synergy binge right now for the same reasons - the in-room feel of tubes is unmistakable. I'm fortunate to have 2 amazing power amps (VHT 2150 and Fryette Classic XXX) to run these Synergy modules through and I'm getting all kinds of insane tones.

I'm sure both approaches have their strengths which is why in the end it's probably best to just have both! The thing that scares me most is the "hours of tweaking" that you mention with the Fractal units. It's like there's so many parameters to tweak that I would always be questioning whether I could do just a little better with my tone.


----------



## MatrixClaw

Meeotch said:


> The thing that scares me most is the "hours of tweaking" that you mention with the Fractal units. It's like there's so many parameters to tweak that I would always be questioning whether I could do just a little better with my tone.


I guess it depends how particular you are about your tone. You can go very deep on the Fractal units as far as what you can tweak. However, on previous models, that tweaking was necessary and a turn off for me. It's the main reason I sold them in the past, it was too much work to get them sounding truly awesome. The original Ultra, especially. I don't know how boltzthrower is getting his standard to sound as good as the latest gen cause I couldn't get my Ultra to sound good on the modeling side to save my life 

The FM3 sounds great just setting the models up like a real amp, adjusting only the basic EQ and gain parameters. I'm not generally a huge tweaker so the sounds I'm getting out of this definitely appeal to me as it's far more simple to get a good tone out of it than any other modeler I've owned.


----------



## laxu

MatrixClaw said:


> I'm seriously considering selling all my amps and just buying a PowerCab for the FM3. Am I crazy?
> 
> I did a little experiment today:
> 
> I tried to A/B the FM3 and the 5150 III as scientifically as possible (both into 1x12s with a V30 in them) and it's definitely close but not quite the same. If I was picking objectively, I'd probably say the FM3 sounds better. If I'm going off accuracy, the real amp has some unique stuff going on in the midrange. It's like the low mids are voiced in a slightly different range. It sounds almost hollow in comparison, but bigger at the same time. It's scooped more in the high mids and more present in the low mids.
> 
> Interestingly enough, while I found most of the other models to have more gain than the real amps would, the FM3 actually has less on the 5150 III 50w Blue Channel. I had to have the gain at around 7.5 to get the same saturation as the real amp at 6. However, the model doesn't really have the crisp high end the real amp has unless it's boosted. I don't generally boost amps and love the EVH without it, but the FM3 simply sounded closer to the real deal with the TS808 in front.
> 
> Of course, the differences I'm hearing could also be explained by the power amp I'm using - a $100 EHX 44 Magnum. I've heard it's not the most transparent poweramp. I do have an Alto TS112A I plan to plug it into tomorrow and use the cabinet modeling through. Maybe I can get closer that way, there's just something about the 5150 III that sounds more unique that the FM3 isn't doing but maybe with some more tweaking I can get it there. Though, like I said, if I was just hearing the tones without comparing the actual amps, I'd probably find the FM3 to be better sounding, it's much more full while still retaining the same general voicing. There's just something fun about the EVH that makes it a bit more exciting to play through in the room.



The problem with A/B experiments like these is that there are often too many variables ranging from differences in pot variance on the amp to different poweramps and speakers to simply not using a decibel meter to make sure you are playing them at the same volume. Also make sure you set the master volume on the amp model to a similar setting you would use on the amp because otherwise you might be comparing a "cranked" setting to a real amp on 2.


----------



## MatrixClaw

laxu said:


> The problem with A/B experiments like these is that there are often too many variables ranging from differences in pot variance on the amp to different poweramps and speakers to simply not using a decibel meter to make sure you are playing them at the same volume. Also make sure you set the master volume on the amp model to a similar setting you would use on the amp because otherwise you might be comparing a "cranked" setting to a real amp on 2.


Indeed. It's a tough comparison if you don't have the exact same setup for both. I was running them through a 1x12 closed back Ampeg with a V30 and my Marshall DSL40C half open back combo cabinet with a V30. At first, I thought the differences were easily explained by the cab differences so I swapped them just to see and the differences were definitely still there. I had all settings on the FM3 the same as the EVH, except the gain, which seems to be less on the FM3 than the EVH, so I had it set higher.

Good point on the dB meter. I just matched them with my ears but that's not a bad idea, I'll try that tomorrow, though I doubt it'll make too huge a difference, the character differences were there whether the amps were loud or quiet. Matching dB will at least make it easier to pick up smaller nuances, though.

Definitely not a perfect test, but I tried to be as close in setup with both as I could. Wish my 4x12 had a stereo setting, that'd probably be a more fair test cab wise. I did notice the Resonance (Depth) and Presence settings on the FM3 were less responsive than the real amp, which is why I'm wondering if the poweramp is where the major difference in tone is.


----------



## laxu

Meeotch said:


> The thing that scares me most is the "hours of tweaking" that you mention with the Fractal units. It's like there's so many parameters to tweak that I would always be questioning whether I could do just a little better with my tone.



I can understand that. Most of the time you will be wondering which impulse responses you should be using as those are very powerful tone shapers. When I had the Axe-Fx 2 I rarely touched any of the advanced amp block settings.


----------



## Deadpool_25

MatrixClaw said:


> I'm seriously considering selling all my amps and just buying a PowerCab for the FM3. Am I crazy?



Yes. Don’t be a @budda! 

@boltzthrower, excellent post. I don’t remember feeling like there was a lack of warmth running the FM3 through an amp FX loop, but it’s been a while. These things can be subtle.




Meeotch said:


> The thing that scares me most is the "hours of tweaking" that you mention with the Fractal units. It's like there's so many parameters to tweak that I would always be questioning whether I could do just a little better with my tone.



This is, imo, EXACTLY the danger with the Fractal stuff. And it applies to some people and not others—it very much applies to me. That was my primary issue when I had the AFX2. 

Interestingly I don’t have that issue with the FM3. It may be that I went in more mentally prepared and I was also resolved that I wasn’t going to tweak much.

It’s still more fiddly than an amp of course. Which is why I still love real amps.


----------



## Jon Pearson

boltzthrower said:


> I'm gonna chime in on this A/B'ing convo here. I've been playing the Axe Standard through a real tube power amp (VHT 2/90/2) and real cab as my main rig for nearly a decade. Before that my setup was the same except with an Engl 570 as the pre. I switched fully over to the Standard as a preamp after I got it to sound not only extremely close to the 570 but actually better than it, imo. The Axe is just so tweakable, it's capable of getting EXTREMELY tight (big points for me) without sounding thin and while also having pretty much no noise whatsoever (which is not possible with "real" amps, in my experience).
> 
> I've now had the FM3 for about 2 months and as far as its use as just a preamp with a real power amp & cab, it doesn't sound any better than the Standard (except for maybe some of the effects) but it has some awesome new features, useful new amp models and the form factor is great. Anyway, I've spent countless hours tweaking these Fractal products to sound like "real" preamps and I can tell you, they have a certain sound to them that is ever present no matter which amp model you're using. IMO, that certain sound is not necessarily a bad thing, unless you really need that warmth (for lack of a better term) that comes from analog gear. I just can't get the fractal products to impart the warmth that my "real" preamps have. The Axe actually cuts better in the mix but that has a lot to do with EQ and tightness tweaks I made to it after initially making it sound extremely close to the E 570. The fractal products also help create space in the mix because they're not noisy like "real" amps. This warmth thing I'm talking about, it's not just something I hear with the amp in the room but I can hear it on my recorded tracks, too. So back to what I said about the Axe sounding better as a pre than my E 570, I should clarify that the Axe doesn't sound better in every way, the E 570 has that warmth thing goin' on which is desirable, but the Axe/FM3 sounds better overall for the tone I'm going for due to being so tweakable.
> 
> I don't come across many people online using the Fractal products as a preamp into real power amp/cab and I'm curious if those who do can hear what I'm talking about with the lack of warmth. It's like there's this sterility to the Axe FX products, which is actually useful for my tight high gain rhythm tone, but at the same time I miss that classic warm sound/feel I get with actual analog preamps.



I do exactly this. I don't know if it's "sterility" I hear from the Axe, there is still a thing there where it doesnt have quite the same vibe as the real deal, but it's quite literally impossible for me to describe. 

It still sounds phenomenal and it's the most useful tool I've ever owned, but it doesn't quite replicate that thing that I love about the real deal, even it is the closest. I know many people will think we are both full of it but I've went through countless modelling products WANTING them to replace my tube rigs - none of them quite get it perfect, no matter what the configuration.


----------



## budda

Probably just need to turn the volume of whatever the modeller is feeding up


----------



## Deadpool_25

I think for many people, myself included, there’s a different feeling when playing a real amp versus a computer or modeler. For me it’s something about how being limited in terms of tweakability is actually freeing in a way. Like I stop thinking about dialing in a tone and I can _just play_.

As I mentioned earlier, although the FM3 is crazy tweakable, it’s also easy for me to just dial up a factory preset and enjoy. That hasn’t been the case for me with other modelers.


----------



## Jon Pearson

budda said:


> Probably just need to turn the volume of whatever the modeller is feeding up



Bold of you to assume my volume knob ever falls below 10...


----------



## Shask

boltzthrower said:


> I'm gonna chime in on this A/B'ing convo here. I've been playing the Axe Standard through a real tube power amp (VHT 2/90/2) and real cab as my main rig for nearly a decade. Before that my setup was the same except with an Engl 570 as the pre. I switched fully over to the Standard as a preamp after I got it to sound not only extremely close to the 570 but actually better than it, imo. The Axe is just so tweakable, it's capable of getting EXTREMELY tight (big points for me) without sounding thin and while also having pretty much no noise whatsoever (which is not possible with "real" amps, in my experience).
> 
> I've now had the FM3 for about 2 months and as far as its use as just a preamp with a real power amp & cab, it doesn't sound any better than the Standard (except for maybe some of the effects) but it has some awesome new features, useful new amp models and the form factor is great. Anyway, I've spent countless hours tweaking these Fractal products to sound like "real" preamps and I can tell you, they have a certain sound to them that is ever present no matter which amp model you're using. IMO, that certain sound is not necessarily a bad thing, unless you really need that warmth (for lack of a better term) that comes from analog gear. I just can't get the fractal products to impart the warmth that my "real" preamps have. The Axe actually cuts better in the mix but that has a lot to do with EQ and tightness tweaks I made to it after initially making it sound extremely close to the E 570. The fractal products also help create space in the mix because they're not noisy like "real" amps. This warmth thing I'm talking about, it's not just something I hear with the amp in the room but I can hear it on my recorded tracks, too. So back to what I said about the Axe sounding better as a pre than my E 570, I should clarify that the Axe doesn't sound better in every way, the E 570 has that warmth thing goin' on which is desirable, but the Axe/FM3 sounds better overall for the tone I'm going for due to being so tweakable.
> 
> I don't come across many people online using the Fractal products as a preamp into real power amp/cab and I'm curious if those who do can hear what I'm talking about with the lack of warmth. It's like there's this sterility to the Axe FX products, which is actually useful for my tight high gain rhythm tone, but at the same time I miss that classic warm sound/feel I get with actual analog preamps.


Yeah, I have been trying it for years with my Axe II. Mostly with a Matrix Poweramp and GFlex 212 cab. There is definitely an overall smoothness to the Fractal you can't dial out. I would also say the biggest difference is in the low end. You can dial in a lot of bass, but it not the same sounding and feeling as the natural chug of like a 5150 or Recto or something. Something about the low end just feels off. I have heard there have been improvements in that with the III.

I rarely ever play with the cab block and IRs. I can't get into that tone and feel.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Shask said:


> Yeah, I have been trying it for years with my Axe II. Mostly with a Matrix Poweramp and GFlex 212 cab. There is definitely an overall smoothness to the Fractal you can't dial out. I would also say the biggest difference is in the low end. You can dial in a lot of bass, but it not the same sounding and feeling as the natural chug of like a 5150 or Recto or something. Something about the low end just feels off. I have heard there have been improvements in that with the III.
> 
> I rarely ever play with the cab block and IRs. I can't get into that tone and feel.



I could never get along with the Matrix amp setup with my AFX2 either through FRFR or a real cab. Have you tried with a tube power amp?


----------



## viifox

Just saw the price tag for the NDSP Cortex. $1,599. Damn!

I haven't compared its specs to the FM3, but i remember reading that it punches way above its weight.

The most important thing to me is tone, and with this being Neural's first hardware modeler, I'm skeptical that it's going to be on par with the FM3. If the quality is the same as their plugins, then i think they'll be in trouble. Not that the quality is that bad, but I don't think it's that good to warrant such a high price tag.

Thoughts?


----------



## MatrixClaw

viifox said:


> Just saw the price tag for the NDSP Cortex. $1,599. Damn!
> 
> I haven't compared its specs to the FM3, but i remember reading that it punches way above its weight.
> 
> The most important thing to me is tone, and with this being Neural's first hardware modeler, I'm skeptical that it's going to be on par with the FM3. If the quality is the same as their plugins, then i think they'll be in trouble. Not that the quality is that bad, but I don't think it's that good to warrant such a high price tag.
> 
> Thoughts?


I agree. It looks interesting, but it'd have to really wow me to get me to spend $600 more than the FM3. It's in this weird price range where it's cheaper than the AxeFX, but more expensive than the FM3. In features, it probably sits right in the middle as well, but the one thing that's definitely appealing to me on it is the touch screen. The FM3 would be so much easier to work with with a touch screen. Seriously, they could get rid of that entire top row of knobs and button and put a gigantic screen on it and it'd be perfect. Editing on the Quad Cortex definitely looks easier because of it and the knobs on the buttons.

The one thing about the Quad Cortex is it's not really a modeler from what I can tell. It's more of a Kemper dressed up to be a modeler, but they're not recreating the actual circuit of the amplifiers digital like Fractal is, they're just taking profiles of amps. They both have their place, but I feel like the QC may be a better recording tool but not up to snuff for "in the room" sounds. I think Fractal is at the point that they can start creating their own amplifiers (I guess they have with the FAS models), but profilers still rely on the original source to be worth a damn.

I also don't really want to spend $1600 on the QC without some proven track record to show they keep it updated. Fractal/Line 6 have regular releases. I'd be afraid of Neural abandoning the platform as soon as a new version comes out that fixes all the quirks of v1, which inevitably will happen.


----------



## Randy

Deadpool_25 said:


> I think for many people, myself included, there’s a different feeling when playing a real amp versus a computer or modeler. For me it’s something about how being limited in terms of tweakability is actually freeing in a way. Like I stop thinking about dialing in a tone and I can _just play_.



That's actually why I 'pulled a Budda' myself and got the Powercab  Most of the FRFRs I played feel like you're playing through monitor speakers, I liked the 'amp in room' vibe of the Powercab, so I basically pick a speaker model I like and do all my tweaking on the amp end of things. I've heard good things from people about using the neutral speaker setting that way, I haven't tried that yet.

Anyway yeah, I agree that modeler to FRFR or through interface alone doesn't feel like a real amp. I guess the X factor I haven't resolved yet is if the warm difference is via the power section or via the guitar cab (vs a PA type speaker for example).


----------



## Deadpool_25

I don’t think the QC is going to sound and feel better than the FM3 to me. Honestly I don’t see how it could. Even asking for it to sound and feel as good is a very tall order. I’m not saying it’s impossible, I’m just saying I’d have to experience that to believe it.

I do think the QC has some level of component modeling. I could be wrong but IIRC they’ve differentiated between those models and the profiled (or wtfever they call it) amps.


----------



## Randy

viifox said:


> Just saw the price tag for the NDSP Cortex. $1,599. Damn!
> 
> I haven't compared its specs to the FM3, but i remember reading that it punches way above its weight.
> 
> The most important thing to me is tone, and with this being Neural's first hardware modeler, I'm skeptical that it's going to be on par with the FM3. If the quality is the same as their plugins, then i think they'll be in trouble. Not that the quality is that bad, but I don't think it's that good to warrant such a high price tag.
> 
> Thoughts?



Selling point on the QC is pretty much all about features, tones are secondary. I mean, Neural makes good amp sims but considering amp profiling is a primary feature of it, perceivably you're only limited by what people make available on the exchange or what you can capture yourself. But the quality of it's capturing out in the wild has yet to be seen. The features (touch screen, IOs, profiling, etc) are hard to deny, though.


----------



## Shask

Deadpool_25 said:


> I could never get along with the Matrix amp setup with my AFX2 either through FRFR or a real cab. Have you tried with a tube power amp?


Yeah, it has been a few years, but I tried it through the poweramp sections of some of my amps, like my Triple Recto, Katana, 5150 III 50W, Peavey XXX, etc....

I remember these sounded and felt very good, but definitely VERY different, to the point where I would have to permanently keep that setup connected like that, and tweaked specifically for that situation. I also remember the Triple Recto Poweramp made everything on the Axe basically sound like a Mesa. It definitely added it's flavor to everything.

I switch around gear a lot, so that is too much work, lol. The Matrix is the only amp I keep permanently attached to the Axe II. The Triple Recto made me think the 2:90 would work great with it though.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Cool. I was just noodling around with the FM3 into the BE100D return and it’s pretty awesome. The BE has a phenomenally transparent loop. I need to break the Friedman cab in though. Right now my BFG custom 2x12 is way better sounding.


----------



## budda

Bedroom guys "i want a touch screen for my floor unit!"

People who've toured "you sure about that?"


----------



## laxu

viifox said:


> Just saw the price tag for the NDSP Cortex. $1,599. Damn!
> 
> I haven't compared its specs to the FM3, but i remember reading that it punches way above its weight.
> 
> The most important thing to me is tone, and with this being Neural's first hardware modeler, I'm skeptical that it's going to be on par with the FM3. If the quality is the same as their plugins, then i think they'll be in trouble. Not that the quality is that bad, but I don't think it's that good to warrant such a high price tag.
> 
> Thoughts?



Fractal's amp modeling is top tier, no question about that. I don't expect NeuralDSP to match that but coming close enough is good enough for anyone. Fractal usability is my complaint. Helix is better in that regard and so far the Quad Cortex looks to be even better. QC's cab sims alone will be a lot better experience than other modeling units where cab sim is basically a glorified file browser. QC has far more immediate control and switching features in it than FM3 where you are managing a clever switch navigation system that only exists because they decided to limit the number of switches to 3. While you can always buy a FC6, that puts you already beyond Quad Cortex price with a much larger footprint.

That said, my concerns for the QC are that its switches are too close together and awkward to use with a foot due to its compact size or that its knobs are not nice to use. Likewise the touchscreen is an unknown, it puts a lot more requirement on the UI being responsive compared to the physical buttons approach of current modelers. Anyone who has used an underpowered or misbehaving tablet or phone can understand how that impacts the user experience compared to how snappy modern touch devices are.

My long time beef with Fractal has been their lack of effort in the user interface department on their hardware. There is a shitload of different views and states in their UIs that make it harder to be oriented and see what is in your preset. This completely goes away the moment you open up Axe-Edit. It's a great software and I would buy an Axe-Fx plugin with that UI any day. Even more frustratingly the situation doesn't improve until they release a next gen device, 99% of firmware updates are purely bug fixes and modeling improvements. There's low hanging fruit UI improvement suggestions that have been on the Axe-Fx 3 wishlist forums for over a year, things that would take at most days to implement and test. That's part of why I hopped off the Fractal train when the Axe-Fx 3 was released despite using their units for close to 10 years. I have zero complaints about how they sound or feel so if that's your main concern, definitely buy a Fractal unit.

NeuralDSP's plugins are hit and miss for me. When they were recently on sale I evaluated most of them and figured out that I don't need to buy any of them, their amp modeling is at the same level as other plugins, it was some of the presets that were really good and that came down mostly to how their cab sims and effects were set up. It was sort of like having the perfectly miced cab and perfectly setup effects that made me go "wow, this sounds really good". If I setup my Helix Native and ML Sound Labs plugins in a similar manner I quickly got pretty close - and a big part of that is how ML Sound Labs MIKKO cab sim works very much like an even better version of the Quad Cortex/NDSP plugin cab sim block. It's just very easy to move a virtual mic around with your mouse or finger compared to guessing if the right solution presents itself by selecting "OWNHMR 412-57 1-45-OA-B" IR from a file browser type UI.

My experience is that current top modelers and plugins are so good that getting a good sound that is enjoyable and responsive to play is not a concern. Fractal is no longer in a category of its own in the modeling world and YT is full of videos comparing the various units. For a recorded sound it's getting to splitting hairs department. How they feel is not always coming through in videos though so that's up to what you prefer. For one person compressed and easy to play is "responsive" while for another "responsive" means a wide dynamic range where subtle touch differences clean up the tone or make it roar.

So choosing purely based on sound it's easy to just go Fractal and be done with that part. For me other aspects matter - how easy it is to use and if the device can make me experiment and explore new sounds because it's easy to use. Fractal did not do it for me whereas I am pretty happy with my Helix for that. I have a Quad Cortex on preorder and will see how that plays out, I can always send it back if it doesn't, sound, feel or perform good enough. Fractal's constantly poor availability is also another thing as you can buy a Kemper, Helix or QC easily compared to having to join an arbitrary time waitlist to get a Fractal. Especially in EU it's always been a long wait to get their latest and greatest.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Sometimes I wonder if Fractal doesn’t change the user experience just due to stubbornness.


----------



## budda

Deadpool_25 said:


> Sometimes I wonder if Fractal doesn’t change the user experience just due to stubbornness.



Hey, its working for Kiesel


----------



## MatrixClaw

laxu said:


> Fractal's amp modeling is top tier, no question about that. I don't expect NeuralDSP to match that but coming close enough is good enough for anyone. Fractal usability is my complaint. Helix is better in that regard and so far the Quad Cortex looks to be even better. QC's cab sims alone will be a lot better experience than other modeling units where cab sim is basically a glorified file browser. QC has far more immediate control and switching features in it than FM3 where you are managing a clever switch navigation system that only exists because they decided to limit the number of switches to 3. While you can always buy a FC6, that puts you already beyond Quad Cortex price with a much larger footprint.
> 
> That said, my concerns for the QC are that its switches are too close together and awkward to use with a foot due to its compact size or that its knobs are not nice to use. Likewise the touchscreen is an unknown, it puts a lot more requirement on the UI being responsive compared to the physical buttons approach of current modelers. Anyone who has used an underpowered or misbehaving tablet or phone can understand how that impacts the user experience compared to how snappy modern touch devices are.
> 
> My long time beef with Fractal has been their lack of effort in the user interface department on their hardware. There is a shitload of different views and states in their UIs that make it harder to be oriented and see what is in your preset. This completely goes away the moment you open up Axe-Edit. It's a great software and I would buy an Axe-Fx plugin with that UI any day. Even more frustratingly the situation doesn't improve until they release a next gen device, 99% of firmware updates are purely bug fixes and modeling improvements. There's low hanging fruit UI improvement suggestions that have been on the Axe-Fx 3 wishlist forums for over a year, things that would take at most days to implement and test. That's part of why I hopped off the Fractal train when the Axe-Fx 3 was released despite using their units for close to 10 years. I have zero complaints about how they sound or feel so if that's your main concern, definitely buy a Fractal unit.
> 
> NeuralDSP's plugins are hit and miss for me. When they were recently on sale I evaluated most of them and figured out that I don't need to buy any of them, their amp modeling is at the same level as other plugins, it was some of the presets that were really good and that came down mostly to how their cab sims and effects were set up. It was sort of like having the perfectly miced cab and perfectly setup effects that made me go "wow, this sounds really good". If I setup my Helix Native and ML Sound Labs plugins in a similar manner I quickly got pretty close - and a big part of that is how ML Sound Labs MIKKO cab sim works very much like an even better version of the Quad Cortex/NDSP plugin cab sim block. It's just very easy to move a virtual mic around with your mouse or finger compared to guessing if the right solution presents itself by selecting "OWNHMR 412-57 1-45-OA-B" IR from a file browser type UI.
> 
> My experience is that current top modelers and plugins are so good that getting a good sound that is enjoyable and responsive to play is not a concern. Fractal is no longer in a category of its own in the modeling world and YT is full of videos comparing the various units. For a recorded sound it's getting to splitting hairs department. How they feel is not always coming through in videos though so that's up to what you prefer. For one person compressed and easy to play is "responsive" while for another "responsive" means a wide dynamic range where subtle touch differences clean up the tone or make it roar.
> 
> So choosing purely based on sound it's easy to just go Fractal and be done with that part. For me other aspects matter - how easy it is to use and if the device can make me experiment and explore new sounds because it's easy to use. Fractal did not do it for me whereas I am pretty happy with my Helix for that. I have a Quad Cortex on preorder and will see how that plays out, I can always send it back if it doesn't, sound, feel or perform good enough. Fractal's constantly poor availability is also another thing as you can buy a Kemper, Helix or QC easily compared to having to join an arbitrary time waitlist to get a Fractal. Especially in EU it's always been a long wait to get their latest and greatest.


Totally agree with this. If I were to get QC it'd be because of the UI and ease of use. I was NOT excited to get the FM3 because of their UI, but now that I have it and the models sound good with nothing other than basic EQ changes you'd do on a real amp, I'm fine with it. It'd definitely be nice to more easily change settings on the fly, though, but one of the big things I don't think people talk much about with Fractal is their effects. Their modulation effects are probably the best I've ever heard. I haven't tried Helix, but from past experience with their products, I'm not confident it's as good as Fractal on the FX side and the QC remains to be seen.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Shask said:


> Yeah, I have been trying it for years with my Axe II. Mostly with a Matrix Poweramp and GFlex 212 cab. There is definitely an overall smoothness to the Fractal you can't dial out. I would also say the biggest difference is in the low end. You can dial in a lot of bass, but it not the same sounding and feeling as the natural chug of like a 5150 or Recto or something. Something about the low end just feels off. I have heard there have been improvements in that with the III.
> 
> I rarely ever play with the cab block and IRs. I can't get into that tone and feel.



I'm on the same boat with the Matrix GT Poweramp as well. Yes, it is one loud af poweramp on gigs. It is very clear, clean, and cutting. You can power 4 high power 4x12s with it, and it would still be loud enough. I mean my 1600 can just eat up my other guitarist's Herbert if I push it half bridged power. But it only does that when it is loud.

For practice, I like putting my AX8 through a Mesa poweramp or thru my 5150II effects return. The sag and the chug are just there at practice volumes, where the Matrix would be tight as hell but lacks that gut-punching lows. Nothing beats that transformer-tube-speaker interaction.

Ported cabs help with the Matrix and with an Axe III, I find that the resonance of the amp models has more effect than the ones in AX8 or AxeII. Seems like I didn't have to fiddle as much to get my cab to rumble.

But when it gets loud as in gigs in a huge room, I'd choose the Matrix all the time. Somehow, in those volumes, the Matrix holds the sound together better, whereas my tube amps become temperamental depending on the room, and if I push it, the low end on the tube amps get mushy as you go up in volume. The Matrix just sounds clearer and far more consistent.


----------



## Mathemagician

My name came up in the list. It is time.


*writes down “Matrix Power Amp” to Google later*


----------



## budda

If you want sag, adjust the sag parameter


----------



## viifox

Alright, so I'm seriously thinking about selling my 5150 and Mesa 212 and getting the FM3 as well as some serious studio monitors. 

Foolish, or even tradeoff?


----------



## Mathemagician

I mean...I wouldn’t do one before the other unless you’ve played that setup and already know you like it.


----------



## viifox

Mathemagician said:


> I mean...I wouldn’t do one before the other unless you’ve played that setup and already know you like it.


Kinda what i was thinkin. I could always sell the FM3 if I didn't gel with it. 

And i need to upgrade monitors anyway.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Mathemagician said:


> I mean...I wouldn’t do one before the other unless you’ve played that setup and already know you like it.



I completely agree with this. If you can manage it, keep the amp and cab, get the FM3, work with it for a while then reevaluate. Like you said, it’s easy to resell the FM3 if it’s not for you.


----------



## budda

viifox said:


> Alright, so I'm seriously thinking about selling my 5150 and Mesa 212 and getting the FM3 as well as some serious studio monitors.
> 
> Foolish, or even tradeoff?



Do it.


----------



## cwhitey2

Mathemagician said:


> My name came up in the list. It is time.
> 
> 
> *writes down “Matrix Power Amp” to Google later*


 Mine should be here tomorrow (fingers crossed). 

I love tube amps, but i want to save them for practice honestly. I don't want to be lugging around Fryettes for 'live tonez'.


----------



## Emperoff

Deadpool_25 said:


> Sometimes I wonder if Fractal doesn’t change the user experience just due to stubbornness.



I think it's more about not being used to do things other way. NeuralDSP is a way younger company with newer approaches whereas Fractal is a powerhouse with everything at your command. Honestly, i don't think you could cram everything Fractal offers into the QC concept and navigation.



budda said:


> Bedroom guys "i want a touch screen for my floor unit!"
> 
> People who've toured "you sure about that?"



So true. That's why I shake my head at a certain unit cramming 10 switches in a 29cm enclosure with a touchscreen. It's gonna suck live in all kinds of ways.

If I can get away with 4 presets live, I'm sure I can work it out with three programmable switches. 10 switches with 1 inch of separation are useless live unless you love turning on all kinds of shit with accidental presses.

I still remember that one time where I accidentally pressed two switches which engaged a goddamn tuner right at solo time. I had to pretend the guitar wasn't working


----------



## budda

The relief with fx8 switch spacing was real, lemme tell ya . And the safety bar for the knobs


----------



## Emperoff

budda said:


> The relief with fx8 switch spacing was real, lemme tell ya . And the safety bar for the knobs



I really think that if Fractal had managed to put 4 switches instead of three no one would be complaining and there would be more than enough room.

Not that it matters much to me, since I only use 4-5 sounds tops live (and basic FM3 configurations doubles as six tones), but it looks somewhat weird being so huge with just three switches when we have stuff like the Line 6 HX Stomp.


----------



## Mathemagician

Does the FM3 have USB 3.0?


----------



## Deadpool_25

Mathemagician said:


> Does the FM3 have USB 3.0?


 2.0 I think


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Emperoff said:


> I think it's more about not being used to do things other way. NeuralDSP is a way younger company with newer approaches whereas Fractal is a powerhouse with everything at your command. Honestly, i don't think you could cram everything Fractal offers into the QC concept and navigation.
> 
> 
> 
> So true. That's why I shake my head at a certain unit cramming 10 switches in a 29cm enclosure with a touchscreen. It's gonna suck live in all kinds of ways.
> 
> If I can get away with 4 presets live, I'm sure I can work it out with three programmable switches. 10 switches with 1 inch of separation are useless live unless you love turning on all kinds of shit with accidental presses.
> 
> I still remember that one time where I accidentally pressed two switches which engaged a goddamn tuner right at solo time. I had to pretend the guitar wasn't working



Fractal Ax8 has that best touring form factor. Neatly spaced switches and quick access amp controls!


----------



## viifox

Pulled the trigger. This shit better be worth it.


----------



## laxu

Deadpool_25 said:


> Sometimes I wonder if Fractal doesn’t change the user experience just due to stubbornness.



I'd say it's really more a question of not having user interface and user experience designers on their payroll as well as the effort that goes into developing a custom UI on a hardware unit is a lot bigger than doing so on a software running on a computer or phone.

At the same time I can see what they were going for with the Axe-Fx 3 UI where it is decently visible from a longer distance compared to say Helix but the problem is that now you have so many different views that take you right out of the grid, just like the Axe-Fx 2. It's also a very engineer/power user type approach where for example the cab block shows every damn option you can use right there.

On the hardware itself I was disappointed that the navigation section was largely unchanged. The nav buttons are spread out a bit too far apart as well as being far away from the display and its knobs. Putting the value wheel and circling it with buttons is also a bad design in my book, I was constantly hitting the knob on my Axe-Fx 2 when I wanted to hit the Enter/Exit buttons. Sure, you can live with it but it's not great.

If I were to improve it without redesigning the whole thing, I'd take a page out of the Axe-Edit playbook and have some sort of quick edit bar on the bottom of the display when you are in the grid view. It already has zoom options so it's not necessary to show your whole layout so a single row of controls that you can quickly adjust with the knobs under the display would speed up the workflow considerably.

Other low hanging fruit would be expanding the perform view a lot. 10 controls is nothing. Give me 30, 40 instead and you could cover most edits you need to make on patch on the fly such as amp settings, some fx parameters like say delay time or level without ever venturing beyond the perform view so it would be a good tool both at home/studio as well as stage. This literally only takes some memory to store the mappings.

Finally I would like to see improved MIDI knob controller support. None of the modelers on the market support something like changing MIDI mapping based on editing context so if you were in amp block, your MIDI controller would edit amp block params. In delay block, delay params and so on. Now those are all separate mappings. Fractal has been worse than others on this front because in the Axe-Fx 2 it was not even possible to map most controls without a Sysex middleman software translating MIDI to Axe-Fx Sysex commands. I would know since I wrote such a software. There was no performance issue with this either so it's just some weird artificial limitation from Fractal.


----------



## laxu

MASS DEFECT said:


> Fractal Ax8 has that best touring form factor. Neatly spaced switches and quick access amp controls!



I really wish they had kept the amp controls on the FM3 even if it meant a bigger device. The only mistake they made with those is that they were amp only. Had they been like the contextual mapping I outlined in the post above they would have been a great way to work on it.


----------



## SamSam

viifox said:


> Alright, so I'm seriously thinking about selling my 5150 and Mesa 212 and getting the FM3 as well as some serious studio monitors.
> 
> Foolish, or even tradeoff?



I love the block letter amp on the FM3! Do it!


----------



## Deadpool_25

SamSam said:


> I love the block letter amp on the FM3! Do it!



Two posts up. He did! Lol




viifox said:


> Pulled the trigger. This shit better be worth it.



Looking forward to your NFD! Did you get new monitors too?


----------



## Deadpool_25

MASS DEFECT said:


> Fractal Ax8 has that best touring form factor. Neatly spaced switches and quick access amp controls!



No doubt. I sold my AxeFX II right before the III was announced. At the time I said I’d get whatever the new AX8 version was. I was a little disappointed the FM3 changed the layout so drastically.

I’m still not completely comfortable with editing on the unit. It’s not awful but it would be sooooo much simpler if it was a touchscreen so you didn’t have to use the nav and page buttons.


----------



## SamSam

Deadpool_25 said:


> Two posts up. He did! Lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looking forward to your NFD! Did you get new monitors too?



Ah fuck! Good! The FM3 is being seriously underrated due to the 3 button debate.


----------



## SamSam

Deadpool_25 said:


> I’m still not completely comfortable with editing on the unit. It’s not awful but it would be sooooo much simpler if it was a touchscreen so you didn’t have to use the nav and page buttons.



I never use axe edit (usb issue with my old mac) and I've found it a lot easier to come to grips with than the Axe 2 screen, simply being able to see the grid clearer has made it so much easier. I might try and see if I can get mine updated to 2.0 and see if that resolves the issues I am having.


----------



## Emperoff

SamSam said:


> Ah fuck! Good! The FM3 is being seriously underrated due to the 3 button debate.



I think they tried very hard on cashing on the FC-6.


----------



## SamSam

Emperoff said:


> I think they tried very hard on cashing on the FC-6.



I honestly think that for a large chunk of users that 3 buttons and the hold functions are plenty. Plus for around £20 you can buy (or build) a 2 button switcher that will be enough for many I reckon.

The FC6 seems great and the OMG9 set up offers a lot of options, but honestly for the time being I am pretty happy with three buttons.


----------



## Emperoff

SamSam said:


> I honestly think that for a large chunk of users that 3 buttons and the hold functions are plenty. Plus for around £20 you can buy (or build) a 2 button switcher that will be enough for many I reckon.
> 
> The FC6 seems great and the OMG9 set up offers a lot of options, but honestly for the time being I am pretty happy with three buttons.



My point is that if the FM3 had 4 switches very few people would be complaining, but much less people would be interested on the FC-6.

Besides, if you add an external switch you're already into Fractal AX8 size territory.


----------



## Musiscience

SamSam said:


> I honestly think that for a large chunk of users that 3 buttons and the hold functions are plenty. Plus for around £20 you can buy (or build) a 2 button switcher that will be enough for many I reckon.
> 
> The FC6 seems great and the OMG9 set up offers a lot of options, but honestly for the time being I am pretty happy with three buttons.



Perfectly happy with 3 buttons here too. I set-up my effects switching for songs using scenes, and one preset per song. It's much easier that way than tap dancing to engage your drive, reverb and delay on a physical board when you need a lead sound.


----------



## viifox

Deadpool_25 said:


> Looking forward to your NFD! Did you get new monitors too?



Not yet! Still trying to figure out which ones i want. Been looking at these.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LYD7--dynaudio-lyd-7-7-inch-powered-studio-monitor


----------



## laxu

Emperoff said:


> My point is that if the FM3 had 4 switches very few people would be complaining, but much less people would be interested on the FC-6.
> 
> Besides, if you add an external switch you're already into Fractal AX8 size territory.



I agree with this. With only 3, you have an extra layer of state management needed. Four would give you 3 presets/scenes and a tuner, which is plenty for most. The moment you add any MIDI board to augment it then you are increasing the size and overall cost. Anything that isn't an expensive Fractal FC is not going to have quite the same functionality either.

While the switching system is well designed, it does seem like they skimped a bit too much on the number of switches here. I would not mind so much if the FC foot controllers weren't nearly double the cost of for example Line6 Helix Control and that's just for the smallest size.

Personally I'd still like most of these compact units to come without any switches or the BluGuitar type ones that are just as good to operate with a hand or a foot so they work better as desktop devices too.


----------



## SamSam

Emperoff said:


> Besides, if you add an external switch you're already into Fractal AX8 size territory.



Adding a tiny 2 switch pedal which is smaller than a boss enclosure does not equal the size of the AX8...


----------



## Deadpool_25

I agree that the therr switches work well enough for me. Leon Todd uses it live and finds three is enough as well.

With that said, there’s no doubt I’d prefer more. Even one more would’ve been significantly better.


----------



## Deadpool_25

viifox said:


> Not yet! Still trying to figure out which ones i want. Been looking at these.
> 
> https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LYD7--dynaudio-lyd-7-7-inch-powered-studio-monitor



Mmmmm. Dynaudio. Yum. Always loved their car audio stuff. Expensive but I bet they sound great.


----------



## budda

laxu said:


> I agree with this. With only 3, you have an extra layer of state management needed. Four would give you 3 presets/scenes and a tuner, which is plenty for most. The moment you add any MIDI board to augment it then you are increasing the size and overall cost. Anything that isn't an expensive Fractal FC is not going to have quite the same functionality either.
> 
> While the switching system is well designed, it does seem like they skimped a bit too much on the number of switches here. I would not mind so much if the FC foot controllers weren't nearly double the cost of for example Line6 Helix Control and that's just for the smallest size.
> 
> Personally I'd still like most of these compact units to come without any switches or the BluGuitar type ones that are just as good to operate with a hand or a foot so they work better as desktop devices too.



Mc6/8 sends cc and pc changes, mostly losing layout and control switches.


----------



## Emperoff

I honestly think the format of the Headrush Gigboard is the best out there. I was super tempted of geting one for studio usage since they're dirt cheap used. A buddy has one and loves it to death due to its easy of use.


----------



## viifox

We all know that the FM3 has the best amp models, but how good are the cab IRs? Do i need to get something from a 3rd party to bring out the best of it?


----------



## laxu

viifox said:


> We all know that the FM3 has the best amp models, but how good are the cab IRs? Do i need to get something from a 3rd party to bring out the best of it?


It has so many that you should be able to find something that works. Most of them are made by 3rd party cab vendors afaik.


----------



## SamSam

Everyone likes the cali 4x12. It is known.


----------



## budda

viifox said:


> We all know that the FM3 has the best amp models, but how good are the cab IRs? Do i need to get something from a 3rd party to bring out the best of it?



IMO no, but im not an IR chaser.


----------



## Deadpool_25

viifox said:


> We all know that the FM3 has the best amp models, but how good are the cab IRs? Do i need to get something from a 3rd party to bring out the best of it?



You don’t need other IRs imo. There are PLENTY of good ones in the box. I bought a couple of IR packs but I can’t remember which ones and I never even loaded them iirc. They’re probably in my downloads somewhere lol


----------



## Deadpool_25

SamSam said:


> Everyone likes the cali 4x12. It is known.


 It is known.


----------



## viifox

Deadpool_25 said:


> It is known.


----------



## SamSam

I've loaded ML Halloween pack, the neural dsp cabs from cali, and a few others. I still have to add bogren digital and some others. But honestly I use some of the stock models just as often. 

It's nice having some extra options but there are plenty of solid choices pre loaded.


----------



## budda

Try the harry joyce IR's from the fractal forum too


----------



## MatrixClaw

laxu said:


> I'd say it's really more a question of not having user interface and user experience designers on their payroll as well as the effort that goes into developing a custom UI on a hardware unit is a lot bigger than doing so on a software running on a computer or phone.
> 
> At the same time I can see what they were going for with the Axe-Fx 3 UI where it is decently visible from a longer distance compared to say Helix but the problem is that now you have so many different views that take you right out of the grid, just like the Axe-Fx 2. It's also a very engineer/power user type approach where for example the cab block shows every damn option you can use right there.
> 
> On the hardware itself I was disappointed that the navigation section was largely unchanged. The nav buttons are spread out a bit too far apart as well as being far away from the display and its knobs. Putting the value wheel and circling it with buttons is also a bad design in my book, I was constantly hitting the knob on my Axe-Fx 2 when I wanted to hit the Enter/Exit buttons. Sure, you can live with it but it's not great.
> 
> If I were to improve it without redesigning the whole thing, I'd take a page out of the Axe-Edit playbook and have some sort of quick edit bar on the bottom of the display when you are in the grid view. It already has zoom options so it's not necessary to show your whole layout so a single row of controls that you can quickly adjust with the knobs under the display would speed up the workflow considerably.
> 
> Other low hanging fruit would be expanding the perform view a lot. 10 controls is nothing. Give me 30, 40 instead and you could cover most edits you need to make on patch on the fly such as amp settings, some fx parameters like say delay time or level without ever venturing beyond the perform view so it would be a good tool both at home/studio as well as stage. This literally only takes some memory to store the mappings.
> 
> Finally I would like to see improved MIDI knob controller support. None of the modelers on the market support something like changing MIDI mapping based on editing context so if you were in amp block, your MIDI controller would edit amp block params. In delay block, delay params and so on. Now those are all separate mappings. Fractal has been worse than others on this front because in the Axe-Fx 2 it was not even possible to map most controls without a Sysex middleman software translating MIDI to Axe-Fx Sysex commands. I would know since I wrote such a software. There was no performance issue with this either so it's just some weird artificial limitation from Fractal.


They can hire me, I'll make their UI not suck!

Seriously, though. I feel like they could've done away with all the buttons and knobs and just left the arrow buttons and the big knob and made it pressable like the smaller knobs. I think the problem with the UX on it is there's too much. It'd take a bit longer to get things done with less buttons and knobs but I think for the vast majority of users, it'd make more sense.


----------



## runbirdman

I’ve had a few days to try out the FM3 and I’m pretty impressed by the quality of the modeling in comparison to my Helix. I ordered the FC-6 and EV-2 and it was easy to get everything up and running so it’s relatively close to the Helix floor as far as hardware now.

Based on my limited experience with the FM3, here are my pros and cons versus the Helix Floor.

Pros:
- Amp modeling feels more similar to actual amps. I have used it in stereo with headphones and with a SYN-5050 and stereo cabinet with WGS Veteran and ET65 speakers. With the Helix, using headphones felt artificial but the FM3 feels more natural. I know that’s a lot of buzzwords but I’m not sure how else to describe it.
- Preloaded IRs cover everything I will need on the FM3 and we’re severely lacking on the Helix.
- Effects. The FM3’s reverbs and delays are light years more detailed than the Helix’s.

Cons:
- I/O. My FM3 rig is about the same price as the Helix Floor to have the same hardware. The numerous FX loops on the Helix are clearly advantageous to the FM3.
- UI. The Helix is miles ahead of on-the-fly tweakability without connecting a PC.

Neutral:
- PC Editor. The Helix may be more user friendly when editing on the device, but the FM3 editor is absolutely on the same level as HX Edit.
- Stage usability. The OMG9 interface package for the FM3 and FC-6 is incredible. I’m pretty sure the Helix was configurable in much the same way, but I was never able to get it setup in a more stage friendly manner than the OMG9. The ability to quickly switch between presets, scenes, and individual effects is awesome.
- Models. The models on both devices are pretty evenly matched. I haven’t been through everything on the FM3 but I have a feeling it’ll be similar to the Helix in that I’ll find ten or so models that get used exclusively. The Atomica model seems incredible but I do miss the Revv models on the Helix.

Overall, I’m much more impressed with the sound quality of the FM3 in comparison with the Helix. If I didn’t have the ability to use a PC editor, I’d be much more frustrated with the UI of the FM3, but I bring a laptop to practice and gigs anyways so it’s pretty inconsequential. I’m going to need to really play around with settings to maximize my current rig. So far, at medium volumes, I prefer leaving the power amp modeling on. I’m not sure if that’ll hold up at louder volumes or if the SYN is just really neutral. I still find it more enjoyable running into an actual cabinet instead of my Friedman ASC-12. I really think that some people who have to have an amp in the room will find modelers to be a much more pleasing experience when used with a good tube power amp and their regular cabinets. I tried out the FM3’s BE model against my SS100 and it was very nearly indistinguishable. I wouldn’t have been able to pick out the FM3 in a blind test. I know a lot of people will say that I just need to spend more time dialing in IRs but so far I’ve been happy using IRs with headphones and my hybrid rig for everything else.


----------



## budda

Is it just me who doesnt miss amps in the room? Mostly because my legs dont have ears, mind you.


----------



## MatrixClaw

Is the waitlist over???


----------



## Deadpool_25

MatrixClaw said:


> Is the waitlist over???



wtf. Interesting


----------



## runbirdman

budda said:


> Is it just me who doesnt miss amps in the room? Mostly because my legs dont have ears, mind you.


I think there’s just a dissonance between what I expect to hear from a cabinet and what I actually hear when I’m listening to a simulated cabinet/speaker/microphone setup. It’s probably all in my head but that’s okay.


----------



## laxu

runbirdman said:


> I think there’s just a dissonance between what I expect to hear from a cabinet and what I actually hear when I’m listening to a simulated cabinet/speaker/microphone setup. It’s probably all in my head but that’s okay.


I find I need to use high cuts a lot to make it behave more like a real cab and even then it’s not the same thing. It’s a good sound and easier to hear in a mix but just playing by myself simply hearing the cab directly is better for me. It’s one of the areas where there is still a lot of room for improvement both in UI of IRs and how well cab sims can match a real cab in a space.


----------



## Mathemagician

MatrixClaw said:


> Is the waitlist over???



And here I thought that me saying “Please” in my message to the unmonitored inbox was what got me ahead of the line so quickly.


----------



## broangiel

runbirdman said:


> The Atomica model seems incredible but I do miss the Revv models on the Helix.



Revv models are coming soon, per Cliff.


----------



## runbirdman

broangiel said:


> Revv models are coming soon, per Cliff.


I’ve had my eye on the FM3 and Axe-FX III forums since I preordered. There looks to be some other amp models coming down the pipe as well. I’d love to see a Pittbull, Wizard, Mezzabarba, Omega, and KSR model at some point but I’m sure there’s plenty in there for me already.


----------



## broangiel

runbirdman said:


> I’ve had my eye on the FM3 and Axe-FX III forums since I preordered. There looks to be some other amp models coming down the pipe as well. I’d love to see a Pittbull, Wizard, Mezzabarba, Omega, and KSR model at some point but I’m sure there’s plenty in there for me already.


Yeah I don’t know what’s unique enough about the Revv stuff to go through the effort of modeling it. Cliff often pushes back on some requests saying something like “it’s just xyz with an abc tweak, do something to such and such a model”


----------



## Emperoff

broangiel said:


> Yeah I don’t know what’s unique enough about the Revv stuff to go through the effort of modeling it. Cliff often pushes back on some requests saying something like “it’s just xyz with an abc tweak, do something to such and such a model”



Revvs don't sound like anything else, so it makes sense. Meanwhile we have 484729 Fender, Marshall and Vox variations.


----------



## viifox

Can anyone comment on how accurate the Archean model compares to the actual Archon? Fucking love that amp!


----------



## MatrixClaw

viifox said:


> Can anyone comment on how accurate the Archean model compares to the actual Archon? Fucking love that amp!


There was a thread the other day where someone recorded their Archon and the Fractal model and said they're so close it's nearly indistinguishable.


----------



## laxu

Emperoff said:


> Revvs don't sound like anything else, so it makes sense. Meanwhile we have 484729 Fender, Marshall and Vox variations.



I find that they are not all that far off from how you can set up a Mesa Mark model. Mesas just have a lot more options to tweak the sound.

I used to have an Axe-Fx 2. 200+ amp models. I went down to a Yamaha THR100HD. 5 amp models, of which one was a basic flat solid-state clean that was not really good for anything so 4 real amp models. Fender clean, Vox crunch, Marshall overdrive and I think the highest gain setting was something like Mesa Recto meets hot rod Marshall. I still felt I did not lose any of my typically used sounds, I just adapted to what the amp was capable of.

I went down even further and got a Bogner Goldfinger 45 Superlead. Fender cleans, Marshall overdrive. That's it. Still could do all I needed though realistically it's not a perfect modern metal amp as it's a bit too "classic rock" in terms of voicing and feel.

There are precious few truly unique sounding amps on the market and differing feature sets are bigger reasons to own a specific amp more than anything. For example some of the big reasons why I own the Bogner is that it has a very good master volume, better cleans than any Marshall, built in boost, good fx loop, power scaling etc. I don't need that specific amp modeled in any digital modeler because I can just pick a Fender Deluxe/Super and Marshall Superlead models and get the same sounds.

In exactly the same way my Victory VC35 is basically a Vox AC30 but it has a better master volume, power scaling, more gain, better EQ options, fx loop and it's an under 10 kg lunchbox head rather than a 30+ kg combo (or that completely stupid AC30 head design). If I want a model of it, I fire up the Vox or Matchless models in my Helix. I've put the VC35 against those via a loadbox and same IRs and it sits somewhere between the two.

People just want to have one click settings to choose their whatever favorite, expensive or rare amp and get that sound. Most are not putting in the work to tweak the existing amp models so they sound like what they are looking for. So modeler forum wishlists are full of "add model X" requests when model X is just a typical Marshall/Fender/Vox with minor tweaks. You could cut the nearly 300 models of an Axe-Fx 3 down to just the FAS models without losing anything significant.


----------



## Jon Pearson

viifox said:


> Can anyone comment on how accurate the Archean model compares to the actual Archon? Fucking love that amp!



The other guitarist in my band has an Archon, I have an Axe III. Even through a solid state power amp and different cabs, I was able to get the model to sound VERY close, to the point where I'm sure if I was going return in into the Archon and the same cab it would have been pretty much indistinguishable


----------



## Emperoff

laxu said:


> I find that they are not all that far off from how you can set up a Mesa Mark model. Mesas just have a lot more options to tweak the sound.
> 
> I used to have an Axe-Fx 2. 200+ amp models. I went down to a Yamaha THR100HD. 5 amp models, of which one was a basic flat solid-state clean that was not really good for anything so 4 real amp models. Fender clean, Vox crunch, Marshall overdrive and I think the highest gain setting was something like Mesa Recto meets hot rod Marshall. I still felt I did not lose any of my typically used sounds, I just adapted to what the amp was capable of.
> 
> I went down even further and got a Bogner Goldfinger 45 Superlead. Fender cleans, Marshall overdrive. That's it. Still could do all I needed though realistically it's not a perfect modern metal amp as it's a bit too "classic rock" in terms of voicing and feel.
> 
> There are precious few truly unique sounding amps on the market and differing feature sets are bigger reasons to own a specific amp more than anything. For example some of the big reasons why I own the Bogner is that it has a very good master volume, better cleans than any Marshall, built in boost, good fx loop, power scaling etc. I don't need that specific amp modeled in any digital modeler because I can just pick a Fender Deluxe/Super and Marshall Superlead models and get the same sounds.
> 
> In exactly the same way my Victory VC35 is basically a Vox AC30 but it has a better master volume, power scaling, more gain, better EQ options, fx loop and it's an under 10 kg lunchbox head rather than a 30+ kg combo (or that completely stupid AC30 head design). If I want a model of it, I fire up the Vox or Matchless models in my Helix. I've put the VC35 against those via a loadbox and same IRs and it sits somewhere between the two.
> 
> People just want to have one click settings to choose their whatever favorite, expensive or rare amp and get that sound. Most are not putting in the work to tweak the existing amp models so they sound like what they are looking for. So modeler forum wishlists are full of "add model X" requests when model X is just a typical Marshall/Fender/Vox with minor tweaks. You could cut the nearly 300 models of an Axe-Fx 3 down to just the FAS models without losing anything significant.



It's more of a marketing factor than anything, tbh. I mean, why the hell do these modellers model the Mesa TriAxis when they already have the Mark IIc+ and Mark IV modeled? The TriAxis was a model of them!

Secondly, those 200 amps get cut in half (or more) if you consider amp channels. I would have put the channel switching as an internal option per model (like VSTs do). But 200 amps Batman! grabs more attention.

I had a Laney VH100R which was everything a JCM800 dreams to be, with an amazing clean channel, reverb, 4 modes, etc. But the JCM800 is the iconic one, and the one that gets modelled. All those extra functions only matter in real amps, specially if modellers choose just the "famous" channels.

So yeah, I kinda agree on basically everything.


----------



## cwhitey2

I got my fm3 last night...holy shit. 

I need more time with it before i can truely give my opinion, but so far im completely blown away. Also, i have only been playing through headphones


----------



## budda

cwhitey2 said:


> I got my fm3 last night...holy shit.
> 
> I need more time with it before i can truely give my opinion, but so far im completely blown away. Also, i have only been playing through headphones



Was it you or someone else who was wondering?

Either way, welcome and enjoy.


----------



## soul_lip_mike

Birth of our first child was Sunday. Wife told me my amp (invective) was too loud for the baby when I went to play a little. Ordered an FM3 for headphone jamming.


----------



## laxu

Emperoff said:


> It's more of a marketing factor than anything, tbh. I mean, why the hell do these modellers model the Mesa TriAxis when they already have the Mark IIc+ and Mark IV modeled? The TriAxis was a model of them!
> 
> Secondly, those 200 amps get cut in half (or more) if you consider amp channels. I would have put the channel switching as an internal option per model (like VSTs do). But 200 amps Batman! grabs more attention.



Yeah it annoys me that no modeler has bothered to make a two tiered "select amp, select channel or variant" UI as it would cut down those long UI lists a lot and make it easier to understand. I get that behind the scenes they are separate amp models but the user does not need to know that.

Line6 guys said in an interview that the main reason why they have models of all these amps is that it is a format that sells. People are more likely to buy a device that says it models classic amps than one that says it uses digital modeling and all the amp models are whatever they ended up with. At the same time a lot of people really love the Line6 Litigator (Dumbleish) as well as the Cartographer which afaik is a model of some modded to hell Traynor one of the Line6 guys built. Likewise I digged the FAS amp models found in Fractal units and would be fine if those were the only ones on offer.


----------



## viifox

So what's the best signal path for record into my DAW using the FM3? I want the absolute best results in terms of optimal audio quality.


----------



## Deadpool_25

viifox said:


> So what's the best signal path for record into my DAW using the FM3? I want the absolute best results in terms of optimal audio quality.



FM3 straight into the computer works great. It’s also great going through my 18i8 but the interface is absolutely not needed unless you want to run other stuff into the computer as well (I was experimenting with some synth stuff).


----------



## viifox

Deadpool_25 said:


> FM3 straight into the computer works great. It’s also great going through my 18i8 but the interface is absolutely not needed unless you want to run other stuff into the computer as well (I was experimenting with some synth stuff).


Good to know! Do you think it sounds better if you do run it into an interface (or DI box)? Or is there not a significant enough difference for it to matter?


----------



## Deadpool_25

viifox said:


> Good to know! Do you think it sounds better if you do run it into an interface (or DI box)? Or is there not a significant enough difference for it to matter?



I don’t think it sounds any better or worse tbh. If there’s a difference it’s inconsequential.


----------



## MatrixClaw

viifox said:


> Good to know! Do you think it sounds better if you do run it into an interface (or DI box)? Or is there not a significant enough difference for it to matter?


The only upside of recording through something else if you don't need the addition I/O is if the interface you're recording through has better converters and you use the SPDIF out to bypass the FM3 conversion. The difference would probably be very minimal (if even distinguishable at all) unless you're working with some Burl converters or something, though.


----------



## viifox

Thanks guys!


----------



## Emperoff

I'd be interested in knowing the latency of going direct to USB as opposed to an interface.


----------



## soul_lip_mike

Deadpool_25 said:


> FM3 straight into the computer works great. It’s also great going through my 18i8 but the interface is absolutely not needed unless you want to run other stuff into the computer as well (I was experimenting with some synth stuff).



Is this VIA usb? I currently have a focusrite interface I was plugging my guitars into. When my FM3 arrives I should just plug it in via usb and be good to track?


----------



## viifox

What about power amps? Could i just use my 5150's fx loop, or should i get something more dedicated for a better tone?


----------



## Mathemagician

soul_lip_mike said:


> Is this VIA usb? I currently have a focusrite interface I was plugging my guitars into. When my FM3 arrives I should just plug it in via usb and be good to track?



Same question. I just plug my speakers into the FM3 then? Will it playback from my PC like a normal interface?


----------



## laxu

viifox said:


> Good to know! Do you think it sounds better if you do run it into an interface (or DI box)? Or is there not a significant enough difference for it to matter?


When I had the Axe-Fx 2 I never noticed any real difference whether using USB, SPDIF or analog XLR outs. Just use whatever you find most convenient.


----------



## budda

soul_lip_mike said:


> Is this VIA usb? I currently have a focusrite interface I was plugging my guitars into. When my FM3 arrives I should just plug it in via usb and be good to track?



Check the manual but yes this is an intended use.



viifox said:


> What about power amps? Could i just use my 5150's fx loop, or should i get something more dedicated for a better tone?



Depends, do you want to spend more money or not?



Mathemagician said:


> Same question. I just plug my speakers into the FM3 then? Will it playback from my PC like a normal interface?



I have my III plugged into my speakers via 1/4" and my speakers plugged into my desktop via headphone jack. That way I can use either sound source without needing the other powered on.


----------



## laxu

viifox said:


> What about power amps? Could i just use my 5150's fx loop, or should i get something more dedicated for a better tone?



Try the 5150 fx return first and see how you like it. My experience with my Bogner and Victory amps is that they both have an effect on the sound and feel. Namely running through them makes most amp models feel similar to just running their own respective preamps.

By comparison I felt the character of amp models comes through better with something more neutral like the Fryette Power Station 2 I had.


----------



## soul_lip_mike

Where do the fractals ship from in North America? Ready to start sweaty refreshing UPS....no shipment notice yet...


----------



## NeubyWanKaneuby

soul_lip_mike said:


> Where do the fractals ship from in North America? Ready to start sweaty refreshing UPS....no shipment notice yet...


IIRC it's like Vermont or New Hampshire... Northeast US


----------



## Deadpool_25

soul_lip_mike said:


> Is this VIA usb? I currently have a focusrite interface I was plugging my guitars into. When my FM3 arrives I should just plug it in via usb and be good to track?



I say just run it into your interface with XLR cables.


----------



## Deadpool_25

viifox said:


> What about power amps? Could i just use my 5150's fx loop, or should i get something more dedicated for a better tone?



Yeah just use the 5150 loop initially. My guess is that’ll be just fine. Hm. I can’t remember if I’ve run the FM3 through my 6505 fx loop.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Mathemagician said:


> Same question. I just plug my speakers into the FM3 then? Will it playback from my PC like a normal interface?



When I was using the FM3 as an interface I had the FM3 connected to the computer via USB and the monitors connected to the FM3 with XLR-to-TRS cables. The FM3 is recognized as an audio input/output device so all the computer sounds come from the monitors. 

When I am using the FM3 through an interface I have the guitar into the FM3 which is connected to the interface with these XLR cables.


----------



## budda

soul_lip_mike said:


> Where do the fractals ship from in North America? Ready to start sweaty refreshing UPS....no shipment notice yet...



New Hampshire. Small spot.


----------



## viifox

Deadpool_25 said:


> Yeah just use the 5150 loop initially. My guess is that’ll be just fine. Hm. I can’t remember if I’ve run the FM3 through my 6505 fx loop.


It arrives tomorrow, so I'm gonna test it out through the 6505 and see how i like it. 

If i feel there's something missing, then I might look into another power amp.

But i really only bought the FM3 for recording, so the whole "amp in the room" thing is just a bonus for me.

I was gonna sell my amp to fund the FM3, but nah. I'll just bite the bullet and keep'em both.


----------



## viifox

@Deadpool_25

Are you still rockin the HS7's? If so, how do you like them for guitar and mixing?

I didn't realize how inexpensive they were compared to the Dynaudio monitors.


----------



## Deadpool_25

viifox said:


> @Deadpool_25
> 
> Are you still rockin the HS7's? If so, how do you like them for guitar and mixing?
> 
> I didn't realize how inexpensive they were compared to the Dynaudio monitors.



Yes I still have them and still love them. Recommend!


----------



## viifox

Deadpool_25 said:


> Yes I still have them and still love them. Recommend!


Sweet! A good buddy of mine works for Ubisoft as a sound designer and actually uses the HS7's as his go-to home studio monitor, so they must be good, lol!


----------



## MatrixClaw

So... I A/B'd my Trem-O-Verb with the 2 channel Recto model on the FM3 and they sound so close it's unbelievable. Any slight difference between the two could easily be chalked up to a slightly different EQ, not model vs amp. I imagined it'd get close, but not THIS close. If anything, I'd say I prefer the FM3 by a slight margin, as it doesn't have the graininess that palm mutes have on the real amp. Under a mic, I don't think you'd be able to tell the difference between the two.

I also tried it through my Alto TS112A and did not like it at all. Could just be the IRs I'm using, but there was so much low end and the high end was rolled off to the point where it definitely didn't sound realistic. Ended up switching back to power amp and cab after about 5 minutes.



viifox said:


> Sweet! A good buddy of mine works for Ubisoft as a sound designer and actually uses the HS7's as his go-to home studio monitor, so they must be good, lol!


I have HS80M, which were the previous generation. I bought them as a second reference set to my Adam S2As and ended up selling the Adams cause the Yamahas were 1000 times better and cost like 1/5 the price


----------



## Deadpool_25

@MatrixClaw
I’m not at all surprised about how close you found the model and the amp. The models are truly exceptional imo. Were you running the FM3 through the TOV return?


----------



## viifox

MatrixClaw said:


> So... I A/B'd my Trem-O-Verb with the 2 channel Recto model on the FM3 and they sound so close it's unbelievable. Any slight difference between the two could easily be chalked up to a slightly different EQ, not model vs amp. I imagined it'd get close, but not THIS close. If anything, I'd say I prefer the FM3 by a slight margin, as it doesn't have the graininess that palm mutes have on the real amp. Under a mic, I don't think you'd be able to tell the difference between the two.
> 
> I also tried it through my Alto TS112A and did not like it at all. Could just be the IRs I'm using, but there was so much low end and the high end was rolled off to the point where it definitely didn't sound realistic. Ended up switching back to power amp and cab after about 5 minutes.
> 
> 
> I have HS80M, which were the previous generation. I bought them as a second reference set to my Adam S2As and ended up selling the Adams cause the Yamahas were 1000 times better and cost like 1/5 the price


That's awesome about the Tremoverb! That's an amp thats been on my want list forever!

What's your signal path?


----------



## MatrixClaw

Deadpool_25 said:


> @MatrixClaw
> I’m not at all surprised about how close you found the model and the amp. The models are truly exceptional imo. Were you running the FM3 through the TOV return?


Nope, just the 44 Magnum into my Ampeg 1x12 so I could easily A/B between the two. Matched volume on both with a dB meter and went to town. I also got a bit closer to the EVH by engaging the Sag setting on Ideal. Still not as close as the Recto, but that amp has some different mid voicing going on it that I haven't heard in anything else.


----------



## laxu

MatrixClaw said:


> I also tried it through my Alto TS112A and did not like it at all. Could just be the IRs I'm using, but there was so much low end and the high end was rolled off to the point where it definitely didn't sound realistic. Ended up switching back to power amp and cab after about 5 minutes.



That's a pretty common complaint about some FRFR speakers. Way overhyped low end that needs big low cuts to tame. Excessive high end roll off should not happen unless you have big high cuts in the cab block though. Typically something in the 5-7 KHz range works for me and that is similar to where most guitar speakers' frequency response rolls off.


----------



## MatrixClaw

laxu said:


> That's a pretty common complaint about some FRFR speakers. Way overhyped low end that needs big low cuts to tame. Excessive high end roll off should not happen unless you have big high cuts in the cab block though. Typically something in the 5-7 KHz range works for me and that is similar to where most guitar speakers' frequency response rolls off.


Now I'm wondering if going with the Line 6 PowerCab will have the same issue. I guess I'm not apposed to doings some extra EQ to get a similar sound, but the overall feel of the FRFR speaker didn't respond like the cheapo power amp into my 1x12 cab. The PowerCab would be awesome though cause I can use it for bass, piano and an electric drum set if I ever buy one again. I could basically sell everything I have and run everything I'd ever need through that one speaker.


----------



## budda

You may also just not like the alto. A lot of variables at play.

I liked the powercab+ I had, but dont miss it at all after switching to my CR4 setup.


----------



## laxu

MatrixClaw said:


> Now I'm wondering if going with the Line 6 PowerCab will have the same issue. I guess I'm not apposed to doings some extra EQ to get a similar sound, but the overall feel of the FRFR speaker didn't respond like the cheapo power amp into my 1x12 cab. The PowerCab would be awesome though cause I can use it for bass, piano and an electric drum set if I ever buy one again. I could basically sell everything I have and run everything I'd ever need through that one speaker.



Most seem to say that the Powercab does not have that sort of issues at least to the same degree.

The Powercab is not meant for bass though, its frequency range does not go all that low. I have never tried it and don't know how it works out in practice. Maybe the 2x12 model is more suitable?


----------



## laxu

budda said:


> You may also just not like the alto. A lot of variables at play.
> 
> I liked the powercab+ I had, but dont miss it at all after switching to my CR4 setup.



You mean the Mackie CR4 studio monitors? How would you compare them to the Powercab?

I have been wondering about the Powercab but so far haven't felt like buying one. A used 2x12 version came for sale and I'm considering making an offer. But I already have a pair of nice Genelec M040 studio monitors and I don't need the volume of the PC so the main draw of the PC would be the speaker emulation.


----------



## budda

laxu said:


> You mean the Mackie CR4 studio monitors? How would you compare them to the Powercab?
> 
> I have been wondering about the Powercab but so far haven't felt like buying one. A used 2x12 version came for sale and I'm considering making an offer. But I already have a pair of nice Genelec M040 studio monitors and I don't need the volume of the PC so the main draw of the PC would be the speaker emulation.



The mackies had a better shot as there was 2 at head level vs the 112 on kickback to my right. I tried a couple speaker sims with the helix but left it flat for the most part.

I mostly sold it since jamming wasnt gonna be a thing for a while and I wanted money for other gear lol. I'd look at getting another for live use again, but I only got 1 jam with it. I was very new to the axe fx at that time too.


----------



## Spicypickles

Has anyone tried the Devin presets?


----------



## soul_lip_mike

Any good headphones recs that are in stock on amazon prime for headphone jamming with the FM3?


----------



## MatrixClaw

budda said:


> You may also just not like the alto. A lot of variables at play.
> 
> I liked the powercab+ I had, but dont miss it at all after switching to my CR4 setup.


I have nice studio monitors that it sounds great with, but I don't really want to use it that way. What didn't you like about the PowerCab? I had the older CR5s years ago and hated them, I can't imagine those tiny speakers sounding anywhere close to as good as a 12", but if be curious to hear your thoughts. 



laxu said:


> Most seem to say that the Powercab does not have that sort of issues at least to the same degree.
> 
> The Powercab is not meant for bass though, its frequency range does not go all that low. I have never tried it and don't know how it works out in practice. Maybe the 2x12 model is more suitable?


The 2x12 would be awesome for the stereo capabilities but it's a lot more expensive. Haven't seen many on the used market, either. I'm not really bothered with it not sounding amazing for bass, as long as it won't damage the speakers. There's a video on YouTube of a guy using one with a bass and it sounded pretty good to me. I just have 2 basses and nothing to actually play them through. Mostly I just keep them for recording, but it'd be nice to have something to plug into every once and a while. Obviously, I have the Alto, but I'd probably sell it if I got the PowerCab.



soul_lip_mike said:


> Any good headphones recs that are in stock on amazon prime for headphone jamming with the FM3?


My ATH-M50s and DT-990 Pros sound great with it.


----------



## cwhitey2

Totally stupid question guys...I followed the manual for running the fm3 as a pre amp in the loop of my cl100 and all I'm getting the 'clean/dry' signal into the amp (like it's bypassing the entire fm3).

WTF am I doing wrong? I used a normal guitar cable from both the L and R from output 2. I played with it for 30 min and can't get the damn thing to work.

Any advice guys?


----------



## laxu

cwhitey2 said:


> Totally stupid question guys...I followed the manual for running the fm3 as a pre amp in the loop of my cl100 and all I'm getting the 'clean/dry' signal into the amp (like it's bypassing the entire fm3).
> 
> WTF am I doing wrong? I used a normal guitar cable from both the L and R from output 2. I played with it for 30 min and can't get the damn thing to work.
> 
> Any advice guys?



Make sure your signal chain is assigned to run to output 2. So for example IN 1 -> Amp -> Cab -> OUT 2.


----------



## cwhitey2

laxu said:


> Make sure your signal chain is assigned to run to output 2. So for example IN 1 -> Amp -> Cab -> OUT 2.


I thought I did that but I may not have, Ill have to check when I get home!


----------



## Deadpool_25

cwhitey2 said:


> Totally stupid question guys...I followed the manual for running the fm3 as a pre amp in the loop of my cl100 and all I'm getting the 'clean/dry' signal into the amp (like it's bypassing the entire fm3).
> 
> WTF am I doing wrong? I used a normal guitar cable from both the L and R from output 2. I played with it for 30 min and can't get the damn thing to work.
> 
> Any advice guys?



Where are those cables from the FM3 going? If you’re running it as a preamp and are not trying to use 4CM, you only need a single cable (typically from output 2 L) to the amp return.


----------



## cwhitey2

Deadpool_25 said:


> Where are those cables from the FM3 going? If you’re running it as a preamp and are not trying to use 4CM, you only need a single cable (typically from output 2 L) to the amp return.


Was trying send it to the effects return on the cl100. I tried both the left and right out and nothing worked. I though I had the output setup for output 2, but I will have to check my settings. If that doesn't fix I have no idea what the issue could be.


----------



## Deadpool_25

cwhitey2 said:


> Was trying send it to the effects return on the cl100. I tried both the left and right out and nothing worked. I though I had the output setup for output 2, but I will have to check my settings. If that doesn't fix I have no idea what the issue could be.



Oh I see. I misread your post as meaning you were using both the left and right outputs at the same time. Sounds like maybe you meant you tried one, then when that wasn’t working correctly, you tried the other one?


----------



## cwhitey2

Deadpool_25 said:


> Oh I see. I misread your post as meaning you were using both the left and right outputs at the same time. Sounds like maybe you meant you tried one, then when that wasn’t working correctly, you tried the other one?


Correct! Sadly I can't go back and edit the post haha


----------



## Deadpool_25

cwhitey2 said:


> Correct! Sadly I can't go back and edit the post haha



No worries! We got it figured out. And I have no doubt we’ll get it running correctly!


----------



## viifox

Today is the day!


----------



## soul_lip_mike

Funny still seeing these units on Reverb for $1300+ since the FM3 is free for all ordering now with no waitlist.

I'm curious how the stock is....I ordered the FM3 and an expression pedal over the weekend. Got a shipping confirmation on the expression but nothing yet for the FM3.


----------



## cwhitey2

Deadpool_25 said:


> No worries! We got it figured out. And I have no doubt we’ll get it running correctly!


I figured i was missing something super basic haha


----------



## viifox

Just tried to connect the fm3 to the fx loop return on my 6505 and got nothing but static.

I also disabled the power amp and cab settings per manual on the fm3.

Hm...


----------



## viifox

Finally getting some sound out of this thing, but holy F is it noisy, lol!!!!

EDIT* simply changed the boost/pad levels and that eliminated the static. Just getting some mildly annoying hum now.

I'll keep digging at it.


----------



## viifox

Alright, this is weird. Why is it that whenever i turn off the reverb in a preset chain, the signal completely goes out? It's like the amp on the FM3 just shuts off.


----------



## rokket2005

Do you have the bypass mode on the reverb set to mute signal?


----------



## viifox

rokket2005 said:


> Do you have the bypass mode on the reverb set to mute signal?


I just deleted the block entirely.


----------



## Emperoff

viifox said:


> Alright, this is weird. Why is it that whenever i turn off the reverb in a preset chain, the signal completely goes out? It's like the amp on the FM3 just shuts off.



Report it to Fractal. They're having more issues like this with latest Firmware, so it might be fixed in a coming update.


----------



## viifox

Well, i think i may get a dedicated power amp. I mean, the FM3 thru the 6505 is OK, but I'm pretty underwhelmed right now. 

I can kinda see how these amp presets are trying to emulate the real thing, and this probably is the best modeler I've ever heard, but the FM3 falls incredibly short of the real deal in terms of both tone and feel. It doesn't even come close. Again, sounds good for a digital modeler, but compared to a real tube amp? No sir.

I'm seriously hoping it's just because of the 6505, and not the FM3 itself.

I mainly bought this thing for recording, so I'm now gonna put it through its paces and see how well it performs in that department.


----------



## cwhitey2

viifox said:


> Well, i think i may get a dedicated power amp. I mean, the FM3 thru the 6505 is OK, but I'm pretty underwhelmed right now.
> 
> I can kinda see how these amp presets are trying to emulate the real thing, and this probably is the best modeler I've ever heard, but the FM3 falls incredibly short of the real deal in terms of both tone and feel. It doesn't even come close. Again, sounds good for a digital modeler, but compared to a real tube amp? No sir.
> 
> I'm seriously hoping it's just because of the 6505, and not the FM3 itself.
> 
> I mainly bought this thing for recording, so I'm now gonna put it through its paces and see how well it performs in that department.


Have you tried it with headphones or monitors?


----------



## viifox

cwhitey2 said:


> Have you tried it with headphones or monitors?


Not yet! Will be doing that today though!


----------



## cwhitey2

viifox said:


> Not yet! Will be doing that today though!


I was blown away by the tone and feel...granted the last modeler hardware I used was hd500.


----------



## MatrixClaw

viifox said:


> Well, i think i may get a dedicated power amp. I mean, the FM3 thru the 6505 is OK, but I'm pretty underwhelmed right now.
> 
> I can kinda see how these amp presets are trying to emulate the real thing, and this probably is the best modeler I've ever heard, but the FM3 falls incredibly short of the real deal in terms of both tone and feel. It doesn't even come close. Again, sounds good for a digital modeler, but compared to a real tube amp? No sir.
> 
> I'm seriously hoping it's just because of the 6505, and not the FM3 itself.
> 
> I mainly bought this thing for recording, so I'm now gonna put it through its paces and see how well it performs in that department.


Something's gotta be wrong in your settings.


----------



## viifox

MatrixClaw said:


> Something's gotta be wrong in your settings.


Maybe?


----------



## viifox

cwhitey2 said:


> I was blown away by the tone and feel...granted the last modeler hardware I used was hd500.


Just tried it through my monitors. It's pretty good. I'd say it's definitely a step up from plugins. Not mind blowingly so or anything.

I'll spend some more time with it.


----------



## Shask

viifox said:


> I just deleted the block entirely.


If it is like the Axe II, this breaks the chain. You have to replace the block with a shunt instead.


----------



## viifox

Shask said:


> If it is like the Axe II, this breaks the chain. You have to replace the block with a shunt instead.


Maybe that's it. I just ended up bypassing the verb and it did the trick.


----------



## viifox

Spent some more time with the FM3 today. I must say, I'm warming up to it. I think digital still has a little way to go before it catches up to tubes, but it's pretty awesome to see how close they are!

In a recorded mix, I doubt I'd be able to distinguish the two, but when played in isolation through a cab i can definitely notice a difference.

Still, hats off to Fractal for pushing the bounderies!

The presets on the FM3 are excellent, btw (LOVE the Uber!) I've only had to do some minor tweaking to get the results i want. I do wish there was a resonance knob somewhere in there. Fortunately, the 6505 has one, and it's been coming in handy.

Btw, i am having difficulty understanding where all the complaints about the GUI/menu stem from. Everything has been pretty intuitive and fairly accessible. No complaints here. I've yet to use the software though.


----------



## budda

You want the ideal tab of the amp block.


----------



## Deadpool_25

viifox said:


> Spent some more time with the FM3 today. I must say, I'm warming up to it. I think digital still has a little way to go before it catches up to tubes, but it's pretty awesome to see how close they are!
> 
> In a recorded mix, I doubt I'd be able to distinguish the two, but when played in isolation through a cab i can definitely notice a difference.
> 
> Still, hats off to Fractal for pushing the bounderies!
> 
> The presets on the FM3 are excellent, btw (LOVE the Uber!) I've only had to do some minor tweaking to get the results i want. I do wish there was a resonance knob somewhere in there. Fortunately, the 6505 has one, and it's been coming in handy.
> 
> Btw, i am having difficulty understanding where all the complaints about the GUI/menu stem from. Everything has been pretty intuitive and fairly accessible. No complaints here. I've yet to use the software though.



Depth in the FM3 is Resonance. Present on every model in, like @budda said, the ideal tab.

Interesting on the 6505. I figured it would sound good through that but I forgot that the 6505 has never been thought of as having a great/transparent FX loop—I’ve never really even heard it called very good now that I think about it.

What other amps do you have available?


----------



## viifox

Deadpool_25 said:


> Depth in the FM3 is Resonance. Present on every model in, like @budda said, the ideal tab.
> 
> Interesting on the 6505. I figured it would sound good through that but I forgot that the 6505 has never been thought of as having a great/transparent FX loop—I’ve never really even heard it called very good now that I think about it.
> 
> What other amps do you have available?


Good to know about the depth parameter!

The 6505 is the only one i have right now, but I'm hoping to get the Badlander tomorrow.


----------



## Mathemagician

viifox said:


> Good to know about the depth parameter!
> 
> The 6505 is the only one i have right now, but I'm hoping to get the Badlander tomorrow.



Review. Review. Review!


----------



## soul_lip_mike

Have you guys seen Leon Todd's videos on the FM3 on youtube? I started watching them last night to prepare for the arrival of mine and found them super helpful to wrap my head around what I am about to embark on.

Playlist link: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJ2NORIYLYH6Q435TGbkRBtHv9hf2HBWD


----------



## cwhitey2

@viifox I 100% with you about the GUI. I skimmed through the manual to understand the basics of the controls, but haven't really dove in to deep as i haven't had the time...that's prob why I was/am having issues running through my amp.

I'm a person that realllly doesn't like manuals, I like to figure out thing on my. The FM3 is fairly easy after 15 minutes of use (as far as using the amps and setting up tones).


----------



## Deadpool_25

viifox said:


> Good to know about the depth parameter!
> 
> The 6505 is the only one i have right now, but I'm hoping to get the Badlander tomorrow.



It’s now “tomorrow”. (Impatiently looking at watch while tapping foot)


----------



## Deadpool_25

soul_lip_mike said:


> Have you guys seen Leon Todd's videos on the FM3 on youtube? I started watching them last night to prepare for the arrival of mine and found them super helpful to wrap my head around what I am about to embark on.
> 
> Playlist link: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJ2NORIYLYH6Q435TGbkRBtHv9hf2HBWD



Leon does some great videos.


----------



## viifox

Deadpool_25 said:


> It’s now “tomorrow”. (Impatiently looking at watch while tapping foot)


Haha! Should be able to make it to the music shop this afternoon. If i like the amp enough, I'm bringing it home!


----------



## soul_lip_mike

Deadpool_25 said:


> (Impatiently looking at watch while tapping foot)



This is me on the UPS app -- got a tracking number from Fractal yesterday but it still says it hasn't been picked up yet.


----------



## runbirdman

Finally got the cables in to clean up the board for the FM3. Excuse the shop, I have to get it cleaned up at some point. I struggled to mount the pedals to the board until I remembered I had previously purchased some of the figure eight style pedal mounting tabs. I think it looks pretty good and I don’t think there will be any reason to have to add or remove anything from the board drilling into the board should be alright.


----------



## cwhitey2

@Deadpool_25 ok so it was the output block, i gures i didnt save it haha! Wasnt able to test with my amp as its at my drummers, just a monitor.


----------



## budda

cwhitey2 said:


> @viifox I 100% with you about the GUI. I skimmed through the manual to understand the basics of the controls, but haven't really dove in to deep as i haven't had the time...that's prob why I was/am having issues running through my amp.
> 
> I'm a person that realllly doesn't like manuals, I like to figure out thing on my. The FM3 is fairly easy after 15 minutes of use (as far as using the amps and setting up tones).



Read the manual twice, trust me.


----------



## cwhitey2

budda said:


> Read the manual twice, trust me.


Im a player not a reader, that will be my downfall with this unit  

I get my basic tone and just go


----------



## runbirdman

Reading the manual (really well put together) helped but watching Leon Todd videos has been just as informative in the early going. I've gotten decent at making adjustments to blocks on the fly. I really wish Axe Change was more robust to give more starting points for tones but I'm probably going to give FracTool a shot and start converting some of the more popular presets from the FXII and AX8.


----------



## budda

cwhitey2 said:


> Im a player not a reader, that will be my downfall with this unit
> 
> I get my basic tone and just go



It does answer a lot of questions that get asked


----------



## Deadpool_25

viifox said:


> Haha! Should be able to make it to the music shop this afternoon. If i like the amp enough, I'm bringing it home!



Did you get a chance to check it out?


----------



## Emperoff

budda said:


> It does answer a lot of questions that get asked



99,9% Of questions asked in the Triaxis Facebook group are perfectly explained in the manual. I swear they're the laziest fucks ever


----------



## budda

Emperoff said:


> 99,9% Of questions asked in the Triaxis Facebook group are perfectly explained in the manual. I swear they're the laziest fucks ever



FAS forums are bad too lol


----------



## viifox

Deadpool_25 said:


> Did you get a chance to check it out?


Ran out of time, unfortunately. Gonna try today!


----------



## Deadpool_25

Man, I’m definitely guilty of that. If I think it’s an easy question I’ll ask it and then start looking through the manual after the fact


----------



## viifox

Deadpool_25 said:


> Man, I’m definitely guilty of that. If I think it’s an easy question I’ll ask it and then start looking through the manual after the fact


Pretty sure we've all done that!


----------



## Mathemagician

This forum is built on the backs of easy questions.


----------



## laxu

budda said:


> FAS forums are bad too lol



To be fair the manuals of Fractal units are _long_. I don't know if they come with a printed one still but it's pretty thick.

You might also want to dive into the Axe-Fx Wiki: https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/index.php?title=Category:FM3


----------



## budda

laxu said:


> To be fair the manuals of Fractal units are _long_. I don't know if they come with a printed one still but it's pretty thick.
> 
> You might also want to dive into the Axe-Fx Wiki: https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/index.php?title=Category:FM3



Thats why i tell people to read it twice before their unit shows up, in tandem with LT tutorial videos.


----------



## soul_lip_mike

Mathemagician said:


> This forum is built on the backs of GAS.


----------



## Deadpool_25

TRUTH


----------



## soul_lip_mike

Can you import axefx3 presets from the fractal community into an FM3?


----------



## rokket2005

soul_lip_mike said:


> Can you import axefx3 presets from the fractal community into an FM3?


Yes, depending on what is going on in the preset. The fm3 can only have 1 amp and I think only one reverb, so if the axe preset has two it will mute the output and throw an error until you delete blocks to bring the CPU usage down. I've never used fractool, but apparently it does something that helps with converting presets from different units


----------



## cwhitey2

laxu said:


> ... I don't know if they come with a printed one still but it's pretty thick.



They don't, but I work at a print shop so I was able to make 

It's 122 pages.


----------



## Shask

My Axe II came with a printed manual. I still have it, lol.


----------



## budda

soul_lip_mike said:


> Can you import axefx3 presets from the fractal community into an FM3?



Fractool is your friend.

Also this forum was built on thrash, hair metal and bmws


----------



## c7spheres

Would it be more powerful to link 2 FM3's together or have an AxeFx-III ? In terms of processing power/blocks.


----------



## laxu

c7spheres said:


> Would it be more powerful to link 2 FM3's together or have an AxeFx-III ? In terms of processing power/blocks.



FM3 will have some of its stuff intentionally downgraded to make up for its lower processing power. Whether this is audible or not I do not know. It will also miss some of the block and capabilities of the Axe-Fx 3. Chaining processors together would also incur extra latency.

If you need more power than a FM3, buy an Axe-Fx 3.


----------



## MatrixClaw

Whelp, I'm gonna meet a guy today to buy a PowerCab Plus from him and then I plan to sell all my other amps and cabinets. Think I might be crazy


----------



## viifox

MatrixClaw said:


> Whelp, I'm gonna meet a guy today to buy a PowerCab Plus from him and then I plan to sell all my other amps and cabinets. Think I might be crazy


If you're getting the same tones from the FM3 that you are from your amps, then I'd do exactly the same thing! 

In fact, i was going to do just that, but I'm hearing enough differences to justifiy them both.


----------



## Mathemagician

Allegedly one more day. Also have a nice pair of Sony headphones to test out that feature as well.


----------



## budda

MatrixClaw said:


> Whelp, I'm gonna meet a guy today to buy a PowerCab Plus from him and then I plan to sell all my other amps and cabinets. Think I might be crazy



I didnt miss my $500/yr 240lb setup when i switched


----------



## Emperoff

budda said:


> Fractool is your friend.
> 
> Also this forum was built on thrash, hair metal and bmws


I think you mean mg.org


----------



## budda

Emperoff said:


> I think you mean mg.org



Chris owned this first


----------



## Mathemagician

budda said:


> *Christ* owned this first


----------



## Emperoff

budda said:


> Chris owned this first



I know, but the persona you described developed in mg.org


----------



## soul_lip_mike

FM3 arrived today. This is pretty sick.....I feel pretty overwhelmed navigating it.

Why are random presets extremely loud compared to others? For example: cliffs of dover preset.

Bummed the bulb preset on axechange doesn't sound very good when importing with fractool.


----------



## viifox

soul_lip_mike said:


> FM3 arrived today. This is pretty sick.....I feel pretty overwhelmed navigating it.
> 
> Why are random presets extremely loud compared to others? For example: cliffs of dover preset.
> 
> Bummed the bulb preset on axechange doesn't sound very good when importing with fractool.


I noticed the volume inconsistency as well. Seems like they could have done a better job with balancing that out. Unless it was done on purpose for some reason?


----------



## Randy

soul_lip_mike said:


> FM3 arrived today. This is pretty sick.....I feel pretty overwhelmed navigating it.
> 
> Why are random presets extremely loud compared to others? For example: cliffs of dover preset.
> 
> Bummed the bulb preset on axechange doesn't sound very good when importing with fractool.



Mine had a couple bulb presets stock....?


----------



## soul_lip_mike

Randy said:


> Mine had a couple bulb presets stock....?


Just found the “djentleman” preset. Large list I missed it!


----------



## Mathemagician

Time for the lightshow. Aka, where are the 5150 presets.




Found it.


----------



## Emperoff

Mathemagician said:


> View attachment 88011
> 
> Time for the lightshow. Aka, where are the 5150 presets.
> 
> View attachment 88012
> 
> 
> Found it.



If Fractal released a stripped down version of the Axe with just 5150 models at 499$ they would swim in money.


----------



## budda

Emperoff said:


> If Fractal released a stripped down version of the Axe with just 5150 models at 499$ they would swim in money.


----------



## Mathemagician

Emperoff said:


> If Fractal released a stripped down version of the Axe with just 5150 models at 499$ they would swim in money.



I can deny nothing, lmao. 

I took Buddha’s advice to heart and read the 2 page QuickStart guide it came with first. While sitting next to it unconnected. So. Much. Willpower. 

Now I am just CTRL+F the pdf as I go. Figured out how to turn up the input pad and suddenly the thin sounding red channel is a beefy motherfucker. I may need to buy a power amp for my 2x12, b/c it sounds awesome through my headphones. 

Up next: how to actually EQ the thing. Maybe I’ll even mess with the gain knob. It’s a wild night.


----------



## soul_lip_mike

SamSam said:


> Everyone likes the cali 4x12. It is known.



Looks up "Cali" in fm3 edit - sees 2 dozen. Which one?


----------



## broangiel

soul_lip_mike said:


> Looks up "Cali" in fm3 edit - sees 2 dozen. Which one?


The one that sounds best to you


----------



## c7spheres

Question to people in the know. From what I understand the FM3 doesn't have the input impedence setting like the AxeFxIII does. I might be wrong, but if I'm not then does it seem to affect the feel/tone in an obvious way?


----------



## Deadpool_25

c7spheres said:


> Question to people in the know. From what I understand the FM3 doesn't have the input impedence setting like the AxeFxIII does. I might be wrong, but if I'm not then does it seem to affect the feel/tone in an obvious way?



No idea as I haven’t used the Axe FX III but I can say the FM3 feels as good with my Strats as it does with my Strandberg or Holcomb SVN. I suppose it would make how it takes drive pedals a bit more finnicky but I haven’t heard of any specific problems.


----------



## SamSam

soul_lip_mike said:


> Looks up "Cali" in fm3 edit - sees 2 dozen. Which one?



Cab menu - legacy - 65

It's the original cali cab we all love from the axe 2 that we can't let go of


----------



## Emperoff

c7spheres said:


> Question to people in the know. From what I understand the FM3 doesn't have the input impedence setting like the AxeFxIII does. I might be wrong, but if I'm not then does it seem to affect the feel/tone in an obvious way?



Most real amps don't have it either. I don't think it will be a problem.


----------



## laxu

Emperoff said:


> Most real amps don't have it either. I don't think it will be a problem.



Pedals, especially fuzz ones seem to be more sensitive to input impedance so it may have some effect on that. At least that is the case on Helix where it is also selectable. But I would not consider it something you will really miss.


----------



## soul_lip_mike

Deadpool_25 said:


> which is connected to the interface with these XLR cables.



That link is broken for me. Can you repost?


----------



## Mathemagician

Is there a specific folder the FM3-Edit updates are supposed to be saved to? 

I have “installed” the 1.2.2 (up from 1.2.0) and it did not prompt a refresh or update nor is it showing that it has been updated, using a windows system. 

Updating the FM3 unit itself was super easy. FM3 Edit not so much.


----------



## Deadpool_25

soul_lip_mike said:


> That link is broken for me. Can you repost?



Try THIS ONE.


----------



## MatrixClaw

Deadpool_25 said:


> Try THIS ONE.


Man, I have like 60 XLR cables, but none of them are colored. Must. Have.


----------



## Guamskyy

On a whim, I sold my kemper and placed my order for the FM3 last week! The wait is gonna kill me


----------



## runbirdman

I'm working on building live presets and one of the issues I've encountered is related to leveling. Most of my presets that I've built have six scenes: clean, rhythm, and lead with wet and dry versions of each. My question is related to order of leveling. How do you guys go about settings levels? I currently set my power amp as around 50%, set the FM3 output dial at around 50%, and then level each scene at the amp block or drive block depending on if the scene is boosted or not. So far, I have copied scenes from the factory presets (Shiva for clean, Atomica for rhythm, and 5150III for lead) but I wanted to hear everyone else's workflow as I begin to build presets from scratch.


----------



## laxu

runbirdman said:


> I'm working on building live presets and one of the issues I've encountered is related to leveling. Most of my presets that I've built have six scenes: clean, rhythm, and lead with wet and dry versions of each. My question is related to order of leveling. How do you guys go about settings levels? I currently set my power amp as around 50%, set the FM3 output dial at around 50%, and then level each scene at the amp block or drive block depending on if the scene is boosted or not. So far, I have copied scenes from the factory presets (Shiva for clean, Atomica for rhythm, and 5150III for lead) but I wanted to hear everyone else's workflow as I begin to build presets from scratch.



I believe Axe-Edit (or the FM3 version) nowadays has a leveling tool hidden somewhere in it so you could use that to match levels between presets.

I usually just set them based on cleans as that usually has the widest dynamic range and thus tends to be perceivedly the most loud. I used the amp block output control for setting the overall volume.


----------



## soul_lip_mike

Any of you guys get the extra foot controller for the FM3?

Also checked out the austin buddy pack set, he has some that mark holcomb helped him build and they sound awesome.


----------



## runbirdman

laxu said:


> I believe Axe-Edit (or the FM3 version) nowadays has a leveling tool hidden somewhere in it so you could use that to match levels between presets.
> 
> I usually just set them based on cleans as that usually has the widest dynamic range and thus tends to be perceivedly the most loud. I used the amp block output control for setting the overall volume.


Where do you generally find the output knob on top of the unit? I currently have mine set at about halfway and I use it for small adjustments in volume and tend to never adjust the volume of the power amp.


----------



## laxu

runbirdman said:


> Where do you generally find the output knob on top of the unit? I currently have mine set at about halfway and I use it for small adjustments in volume and tend to never adjust the volume of the power amp.



I had the Axe-Fx 2 running into an Atomic FR (50W tube poweramp into 1x12 FRFR speaker). I set the max volume level I needed from the poweramp and used the front panel knob to control it to where I really needed to be.


----------



## soul_lip_mike

Are you guys running stereo or mono from your FM3 to your PC/Interface?


----------



## Deadpool_25

soul_lip_mike said:


> Any of you guys get the extra foot controller for the FM3?
> 
> Also checked out the austin buddy pack set, he has some that mark holcomb helped him build and they sound awesome.



The FC6? I did get that.


----------



## Deadpool_25

soul_lip_mike said:


> Are you guys running stereo or mono from your FM3 to your PC/Interface?



Stereo


----------



## budda

runbirdman said:


> I'm working on building live presets and one of the issues I've encountered is related to leveling. Most of my presets that I've built have six scenes: clean, rhythm, and lead with wet and dry versions of each. My question is related to order of leveling. How do you guys go about settings levels? I currently set my power amp as around 50%, set the FM3 output dial at around 50%, and then level each scene at the amp block or drive block depending on if the scene is boosted or not. So far, I have copied scenes from the factory presets (Shiva for clean, Atomica for rhythm, and 5150III for lead) but I wanted to hear everyone else's workflow as I begin to build presets from scratch.



There's a thread on levelling on the fractal forum as of yesterday (axe fx 3 section) - that will probably help.


----------



## viifox

Tried the SD170 with the FM3. It's not a huge improvement over the 6505's return, but it did make the sound more neutral, which revealed the models a bit better. It wasn't a night/day difference, but it was noticeable. 

It also removed the hum i was getting from the 6505, which was nice.

It's overall a pretty clean sounding power amp, and has tons of headroom. I recommend it if you have the cash and don't have anything else.


----------



## Guamskyy

Got my FM3 last night, made a couple quick patches aka rename the FAS modern and bulb 6160 patch, and then tinkered with it more today.

Made a couple presets from scratch with the 65 bassman, DR Z Route 66, Vox AC30, & PRS Archon to get my feet wet and trying it on both the FM3 and on FM3Edit, the modeler itself isn’t so hard to navigate.

The biggest a-ha moments for me were figuring out how scenes worked, figuring out how perform mode worked, and how to edit the layouts to my liking.

In terms of the kemper I had before this, I’m definitely digging the flexibility of this unit and the sounds are amazing and the preloaded IRs are great as well for headphones. Bummed that the horizon devices drive isn’t in the FM3, though in the axefx III, but it’s not a big deal since the TS808 does the job.

I’ll go out on a limb and say even though I think the tone between the FM3 and kemper are hard to discern, the FM3 wins out on the “feel.” Everything seems more expressive, if that makes any sense.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Things usually hit the III first. The PD will be in the FM3 pretty soon is my guess.


----------



## Mr_Marty

Guamskyy said:


> I’ll go out on a limb and say even though I think the tone between the FM3 and kemper are hard to discern, the FM3 wins out on the “feel.” Everything seems more expressive, if that makes any sense.


I don't have an FM3 but I have an Axe-Fx 3. I also have a Kemper. That is my conclusion as well. The Kemper always feels a little overly compressed and while the feel is good it's sort of homogenized with everything feeling the same. The Axe models are all different and more dynamic.


----------



## broangiel

Deadpool_25 said:


> Things usually hit the III first. The PD will be in the FM3 pretty soon is my guess.


It's hard to say. Per Cliff, any diode-based drives that were designed after the overdrive overhaul in the Axe-Fx III will be difficult to port to the FM3. As I understand it, there are two paths to having those drives in the FM3:

Re-model the drives with the older technique
Bite the bullet and build the more DSP-intensive drives in the FM3
Neither is ideal, obviously. One will require a lot of backtracking models, and the other isn't particularly user friendly. A drive model that takes up 20% of your DSP is a hard sell (hypothetical number, but you get my point).


----------



## Emperoff

broangiel said:


> It's hard to say. Per Cliff, any diode-based drives that were designed after the overdrive overhaul in the Axe-Fx III will be difficult to port to the FM3. As I understand it, there are two paths to having those drives in the FM3:
> 
> Re-model the drives with the older technique
> Bite the bullet and build the more DSP-intensive drives in the FM3
> Neither is ideal, obviously. One will require a lot of backtracking models, and the other isn't particularly user friendly. A drive model that takes up 20% of your DSP is a hard sell (hypothetical number, but you get my point).



If a product released in 2020 is already struggling to port their own drive algorythms (which are the lightest), that's bad news for the FM3.


----------



## broangiel

Emperoff said:


> If a product released in 2020 is already struggling to port their own drive algorythms (which are the lightest), that's bad news.


The diode-based drives take up ~9% of the Axe-Fx III's DSP; they're not all that light. We also need to keep the timeline in mind. The drive facelift happened in August 2020 (though that does feel like an eternity ago). The FM3 was baked and shipping by that point. Cliff can't just omit an improvement to his code because the FM3 won't be able to run it. This is a diverging path, and it was made clear from the beginning that the FM3 is _not_ the Axe-Fx III. It's very similar to the different capabilities of the various Helix/HX/Pod devices.

Cliff may decide to port them to the FM3. I'm not saying he can't or won't. But that will come with a footnote saying "this will take hella DSP." Maybe it can be implemented like the Reverbs where the user can pick different quality levels. I'm not sure.


----------



## Emperoff

broangiel said:


> The diode-based drives take up ~9% of the Axe-Fx III's DSP; they're not all that light. We also need to keep the timeline in mind. The drive facelift happened in August 2020 (though that does feel like an eternity ago). The FM3 was baked and shipping by that point. Cliff can't just omit an improvement to his code because the FM3 won't be able to run it. This is a diverging path, and it was made clear from the beginning that the FM3 is _not_ the Axe-Fx III. It's very similar to the different capabilities of the various Helix/HX/Pod devices.
> 
> Cliff may decide to port them to the FM3. I'm not saying he can't or won't. But that will come with a footnote saying "this will take hella DSP." Maybe it can be implemented like the Reverbs where the user can pick different quality levels. I'm not sure.



They still are the lightest algorythms DSP-wise. Nothing you said changes that. I'm not saying Cliff should stop improving their algorythms. I'm saying that releasing a product in 2020 with the same processing power as the 2015 product it replaced is an obvious mistake that as you can see will pay a toll on the long run.


----------



## budda

Emperoff said:


> They are the lightest algorythms DSP-wise. Nothing you said changes that. if the lightest algorythms crush FM3's DSP is still bad news.



They dont, because the dsp-intense drives arent in the FM3.


----------



## Emperoff

budda said:


> They dont, because the dsp-intense drives arent in the FM3.



I think we were just talking about that


----------



## broangiel

Emperoff said:


> They are the lightest algorythms DSP-wise. Nothing you said changes that. if the lightest algorythms crush FM3's DSP is still bad news.



The Drives are not light. They take more DSP than the Choruses, Compressors, Delays, Enhancer, Flangers, Phasers, Pitch effects, Plex Delays, Synths, and Tremolos. The Drives most definitely fall in the upper tier of DSP-consumption on the III. And, yes, I just checked these. I didn't go through all the weirdo effects like the Formant, but of the "standard" effects, there aren't many that are heavier than the Drives (the Reverbs, Ten-Tap Delay, and Multi-band Compressor are the notable ones on the higher end).


----------



## Emperoff

broangiel said:


> The Drives are not light. They take more DSP than the Choruses, Compressors, Delays, Enhancer, Flangers, Phasers, Pitch effects, Plex Delays, Synths, and Tremolos. The Drives most definitely fall in the upper tier of DSP-consumption on the III. And, yes, I just checked these. I didn't go through all the weirdo effects like the Formant, but of the "standard" effects, there aren't many that are heavier than the Drives (the Reverbs, Ten-Tap Delay, and Multi-band Compressor are the notable ones on the higher end).



I don't think you guys are understanding me here. I mean drive algorythms in general, not just the ones on the Axe. It takes a heck of a lot more processing power to do other stuff. If the drives are getting heavier, it means they're getting ahead (or at least much more dense code-wise) than the rest of the stuff.

Which, doesn't change my point a single bit. If they release a 2020 product with the same processing power as the 2015 unit it replaced, people shouldn't be surprised if it can't take more complex emulations


----------



## c7spheres

I think the AxeFxIII should be able to play mp4's so you can watch movies on it.


----------



## budda

c7spheres said:


> I think the AxeFxIII should be able to play mp4's so you can watch movies on it.



I think the iii can run doom?


----------



## soul_lip_mike

Guamskyy said:


> figuring out how perform mode worked


What is perform mode?


----------



## Thrashman

If the PD would take that much more DSP to use then I'll just get a Nano Attack and put it in the FM3 FX loop as the gate on the PD sucks anyway.
Bingo bongo, I now have an extra drive block.

(Yes, I know the Nano doesn't have a drive knob and only has internal treble and volume controls, but I never used the drive knob on my PD anyway nor do I know many that do)


----------



## laxu

soul_lip_mike said:


> What is perform mode?



FM3 does not have it yet. It basically lets you assign parameters of any blocks to a separate screen so you have quick access to them. IMO it's a bit half-baked with too small amount of possible simultaneous assignments, I think it's 10 global (work on any preset) and 10 per preset (work only on that preset). It's meant for live use where you might want to tweak say your delay settings a bit so you add delay time, feedback and mix to the perform view.

Basically it's a way to get around having to navigate to the right block to edit it on the fly.


----------



## Guamskyy

laxu said:


> FM3 does not have it yet. It basically lets you assign parameters of any blocks to a separate screen so you have quick access to them. IMO it's a bit half-baked with too small amount of possible simultaneous assignments, I think it's 10 global (work on any preset) and 10 per preset (work only on that preset). It's meant for live use where you might want to tweak say your delay settings a bit so you add delay time, feedback and mix to the perform view.
> 
> Basically it's a way to get around having to navigate to the right block to edit it on the fly.



ah yes excuse me you’re right, I meant the performance layout.


----------



## viifox

Well, i sent the FM3 back. It's an excellent piece of gear, and crazy versitile, but it comes at the inconvenience of menu fiddling and deep dive tweaking. But that does have upsides to it (being able to save presets, etc.)

I was also hoping the modeling quality was gonna be better than it was. Don't get me wrong, it's the best digital modeling gear I've ever plugged into, but while i think some models were excellent, others were just kinda "meh" compared to the real deal. I really wanted the Princeton and recto models to be so much better, but at the end of the day, they just felt like emulations, even though they are pretty good emulations.

Anyway, i think the FM3 is a crazy good value for what you get, but if you have an amp that you really love and don't want any substitutions, then just stick with that, or buy the FM3 as a piece of gear to compliment your rig, because it's incredibly useful.

My 2 cents.


----------



## budda

Which ones were meh?


----------



## Emperoff

budda said:


> Which ones were meh?





viifox said:


> I really wanted the Princeton and recto models to be so much better but at the end of the day, they just felt like emulations, even though they are pretty good emulations.


----------



## budda

@Emperoff i spent 5 hours looking for my dog yesterday, im still zonked.

I didnt know he had a princeton on hand and a/b'd.


----------



## Emperoff

budda said:


> @Emperoff i spent 5 hours looking for my dog yesterday, im still zonked.
> 
> I didnt know he had a princeton on hand and a/b'd.



Did you find your dog?


----------



## budda

Emperoff said:


> Did you find your dog?



Yep. She definitely could have died on her adventure. Terrifying stuff.


----------



## Emperoff

budda said:


> Yep. She definitely could have died on her adventure. Terrifying stuff.



My GFs dog went missing once and was found in a dog pound one day before being sacrificed. Horrid times indeed.


----------



## Shoeless_jose

budda said:


> Yep. She definitely could have died on her adventure. Terrifying stuff.




Glad dog is okay. our dog escaped once and had to get at humane society next day. cat escaped once was gone 21 days before coming back


----------



## technomancer

Glad you found your dog and she's ok. Way more important than gear


----------



## viifox

budda said:


> Which ones were meh?





budda said:


> @Emperoff i spent 5 hours looking for my dog yesterday, im still zonked.
> 
> I didnt know he had a princeton on hand and a/b'd.


With the recto and princeton being my favorite amps of all time, and having owned them multiple times, i know them really well.

I think the FM3 did a good job emulating those amps, but that's what they sound and feel like...an emulation. To be fair, a big part of the Princeton's tone comes from that beautiful reverb tank. I couldn't get the FM3 to pull that off at all. Yeah, it has spring reverb, but i thought it fell pretty short by comparison.

Some of the models that I thought were just kinda meh were the 5153, and RV50. I also couldn't find anything that could pull off the crunch channel on the 5150. That could have been user error though.

Another thing that bugged me about the FM3 is that a lot of the amp models sounded kinda similar to eachother, almost as if they all had the same tonal base/foundation, and then further tweaks were made from there to try and match the actual amp. I mean, i guess that would make sense since the on board circuitry doesn't ever vary like it does with actual amps.

Overall, i think the FM3 could easily be a replacement for all your amps if you don't mind not having the exact same tone and feel as the real deal, because the FM3 can get pretty damn close! And in a recorded mix? I don't hear much of a difference between the FM3 and the real McCoy.

Did you ever find your dog?

Edit* I see you did! Awesome!


----------



## MatrixClaw

viifox said:


> With the recto and princeton being my favorite amps of all time, and having owned them multiple times, i know them really well.


Did you actually A/B it with a Recto? I've owned the Rev C, D, F & G, 3 channel Dual, a Single Recto, the Rectoverb, Multiwatt, Roadster, Road King I & II and the Trem-O-Verb and am very familiar with that sound as well. I didn't think the FM3 sounded very close either, but then I actually A/B'd it with my Trem-O-Verba nd the 2 channel model was spot on. So close there's no way you could tell the difference in the room. I just traded it for something else because there was literally no point in keeping it, they were that close.

I could see it not being spot on to the Princeton. It does a really good job at emulating powertube saturation but I still feel like there's a bit missing in the feel there for me. I bought a Mesa TA-15 for super cheap to handle the lower gain sounds when I feel like playing loud. It's an awesome amp for those sounds.

I have a Mark IV on the way I'm planning to shoot out with the FM3. If it does as good as it did emulating the Recto I'll get rid of it, too. I already have my Marshall DSL listed. The Marshall and Friedman models in the FM3 can get that tone and more. The only amp it can't replicate so far is the 5150 III, it's close, but the mid range is different on the two. That said, I kept the EVH over my Peavey because it's much more versatile - the FM3 is even more so, so that'll be the next amp listed.


----------



## viifox

MatrixClaw said:


> Did you actually A/B it with a Recto? I've owned the Rev C, D, F & G, 3 channel Dual, a Single Recto, the Rectoverb, Multiwatt, Roadster, Road King I & II and the Trem-O-Verb and am very familiar with that sound as well. I didn't think the FM3 sounded very close either, but then I actually A/B'd it with my Trem-O-Verba nd the 2 channel model was spot on. So close there's no way you could tell the difference in the room. I just traded it for something else because there was literally no point in keeping it, they were that close.
> 
> I could see it not being spot on to the Princeton. It does a really good job at emulating powertube saturation but I still feel like there's a bit missing in the feel there for me. I bought a Mesa TA-15 for super cheap to handle the lower gain sounds when I feel like playing loud. It's an awesome amp for those sounds.
> 
> I have a Mark IV on the way I'm planning to shoot out with the FM3. If it does as good as it did emulating the Recto I'll get rid of it, too. I already have my Marshall DSL listed. The Marshall and Friedman models in the FM3 can get that tone and more. The only amp it can't replicate so far is the 5150 III, it's close, but the mid range is different on the two. That said, I kept the EVH over my Peavey because it's much more versatile - the FM3 is even more so, so that'll be the next amp listed.


Didn't A/B the two, but every recto I've owned has had this "kick to gut" wall of sound that just encapsulates you. It's a unique characteristic of rectos that make people love them.

The recto also gets more fierce with increase of volume (im sure you know what I'm talking about), but that just doesn't happen with the FM3, and that's a big part of the recto tone/feel.

I didn't experience any of that with the FM3.

So while i think the FM3 does a good job with mimicking the recto tone (to an extent), there's still a lot to be desired, imo.


----------



## budda

viifox said:


> Didn't A/B the two, but every recto I've owned has had this "kick to gut" wall of sound that just encapsulates you. It's a unique characteristic of rectos that make people love them.
> 
> The recto also gets more fierce with increase of volume (im sure you know what I'm talking about), but that just doesn't happen with the FM3, and that's a big part of the recto tone/feel.
> 
> I didn't experience any of that with the FM3.
> 
> So while i think the FM3 does a good job with mimicking the recto tone (to an extent), there's still a lot to be desired, imo.



How loud did you run the FM3 rig?


----------



## MatrixClaw

viifox said:


> Didn't A/B the two, but every recto I've owned has had this "kick to gut" wall of sound that just encapsulates you. It's a unique characteristic of rectos that make people love them.
> 
> The recto also gets more fierce with increase of volume (im sure you know what I'm talking about), but that just doesn't happen with the FM3, and that's a big part of the recto tone/feel.
> 
> I didn't experience any of that with the FM3.
> 
> So while i think the FM3 does a good job with mimicking the recto tone (to an extent), there's still a lot to be desired, imo.


My FM3 definitely captures the "kick in the gut" sound. Not sure how close it is on the volume side. I set the TOV where I liked it and then matched it with the FM3 and was surprised how close it got right off the bat. A tiny bit of tweaking and they were nearly indistinguishable.


----------



## viifox

budda said:


> How loud did you run the FM3 rig?


Loud enough to make my walls rumble!


----------



## viifox

MatrixClaw said:


> My FM3 definitely captures the "kick in the gut" sound. Not sure how close it is on the volume side. I set the TOV where I liked it and then matched it with the FM3 and was surprised how close it got right off the bat. A tiny bit of tweaking and they were nearly indistinguishable.


Sounds like you had better luck than me. 

LMK if you decide to sell your TOV!


----------



## MatrixClaw

viifox said:


> Sounds like you had better luck than me.
> 
> LMK if you decide to sell your TOV!


Already got rid of it. Once I A/B'd it with the FM3, there was no point in keeping it. Traded for a Mark IV that's supposed to be here next week. We'll see if I like it better than I did the first time I owned one, if not I'll just sell it and my cabs and only keep the TA-15, plus whatever 2x12 I decide to buy. Honestly I'm kinda hoping that's the route I end up with cause I really like how small that rig will be, but maybe the Mark IV will end up being more special than the first time I had it, in which case I'd probably try to trade it for a short head so I could still have the 2x12 vertically with the TA-15


----------



## sakeido

MatrixClaw said:


> Already got rid of it. Once I A/B'd it with the FM3, there was no point in keeping it. Traded for a Mark IV that's supposed to be here next week. We'll see if I like it better than I did the first time I owned one, if not I'll just sell it and my cabs and only keep the TA-15, plus whatever 2x12 I decide to buy. Honestly I'm kinda hoping that's the route I end up with cause I really like how small that rig will be, but maybe the Mark IV will end up being more special than the first time I had it, in which case I'd probably try to trade it for a short head so I could still have the 2x12 vertically with the TA-15



lol I'm trying to score a Mark IV now but I can't find one local. Mark IVs are too old for me to wanna take a flyer on one without playing it first.

I've been thirsting over so many different amps I think I'm gonna have to detour back into modelers for a while just to limit the damage to my bank account. Mark IV, Engl Savage, a 100 watt 5153 to go with the Stileto, Recto and 6505+ I already have... I want to mod my shit, but with Fractal you can just do that in software, no need for a soldering iron. An FM3 or maybe an Axe 3 seems like the most responsible choice right now.

Lemme know what you think of the new modeling on the Mark IV. IIRC Cliff owns a Mark IV and I've always found that model to be really high quality on the Axe.. unlike some others. The Recto model sucked for a long time but I'm sure they've updated the power amp stuff so many times, it's gotta sound better by now


----------



## MatrixClaw

sakeido said:


> lol I'm trying to score a Mark IV now but I can't find one local. Mark IVs are too old for me to wanna take a flyer on one without playing it first.
> 
> I've been thirsting over so many different amps I think I'm gonna have to detour back into modelers for a while just to limit the damage to my bank account. Mark IV, Engl Savage, a 100 watt 5153 to go with the Stileto, Recto and 6505+ I already have... I want to mod my shit, but with Fractal you can just do that in software, no need for a soldering iron. An FM3 or maybe an Axe 3 seems like the most responsible choice right now.
> 
> Lemme know what you think of the new modeling on the Mark IV. IIRC Cliff owns a Mark IV and I've always found that model to be really high quality on the Axe.. unlike some others. The Recto model sucked for a long time but I'm sure they've updated the power amp stuff so many times, it's gotta sound better by now


Will do! I know how you feel, I really like tubes and have owned at least 50 different models over the years (many 5+ times LOL) but now that I've actually been able to A/B the FM3 with some real amps, I'm really excited about it. My GAS right now is really only fueled by wanting to buy the amps in the Axe I use and see how close they actually are to the model  The only amp I actually want to buy to potentially keep is the new Revv Generator but I'm really on the fence considering it's price and all its features seem too good to be true (plus, there's no Fractal Revv models yet, so it's one that I might not be able to replicate with it).


----------



## MatrixClaw

sakeido said:


> lol I'm trying to score a Mark IV now but I can't find one local. Mark IVs are too old for me to wanna take a flyer on one without playing it first.
> 
> I've been thirsting over so many different amps I think I'm gonna have to detour back into modelers for a while just to limit the damage to my bank account. Mark IV, Engl Savage, a 100 watt 5153 to go with the Stileto, Recto and 6505+ I already have... I want to mod my shit, but with Fractal you can just do that in software, no need for a soldering iron. An FM3 or maybe an Axe 3 seems like the most responsible choice right now.
> 
> Lemme know what you think of the new modeling on the Mark IV. IIRC Cliff owns a Mark IV and I've always found that model to be really high quality on the Axe.. unlike some others. The Recto model sucked for a long time but I'm sure they've updated the power amp stuff so many times, it's gotta sound better by now


Well dang, it got here way earlier than it was supposed to. Tracking number said it was being delivered Wednesday when I checked it yesterday LOL. Time to wake up the kids so I can blast this thing and see how it sounds.


----------



## sakeido

MatrixClaw said:


> Well dang, it got here way earlier than it was supposed to. Tracking number said it was being delivered Wednesday when I checked it yesterday LOL. Time to wake up the kids so I can blast this thing and see how it sounds.



Gotta love when that happens. Can you do that demo like, right now.. cuz I want to buy something today


----------



## laxu

MatrixClaw said:


> Will do! I know how you feel, I really like tubes and have owned at least 50 different models over the years (many 5+ times LOL) but now that I've actually been able to A/B the FM3 with some real amps, I'm really excited about it. My GAS right now is really only fueled by wanting to buy the amps in the Axe I use and see how close they actually are to the model  The only amp I actually want to buy to potentially keep is the new Revv Generator but I'm really on the fence considering it's price and all its features seem too good to be true (plus, there's no Fractal Revv models yet, so it's one that I might not be able to replicate with it).


How are you amplifying the FM3 though?


----------



## MatrixClaw

sakeido said:


> Gotta love when that happens. Can you do that demo like, right now.. cuz I want to buy something today


 Had to fix something on the pool, gonna plug it in now!



laxu said:


> How are you amplifying the FM3 though?


Line 6 PowerCab Plus mostly now. When I A/B with a real amp I use my EHX 44 Magnum and plug it into a real cab, though, that way I take the IR out of the equation and I can hear them both through similar speaker setups.

I'm sure the differences I hear in the FM3 vs my EVH are mostly in the power amp. If I ran it through the EVH it'd probably be super close but I'm not going to keep the EVH to run as a power amp for the EVH model, so using it that way is silly


----------



## Gmork

Someone just offered me their fm3 floor unit for my engl fireball100...... Hmm


----------



## Deadpool_25

MatrixClaw said:


> If I ran it through the EVH it'd probably be super close but I'm not going to keep the EVH to run as a power amp for the EVH model, so using it that way is silly



For me, running through a real amp FX loop and real cab is the best way to demo it. My experience is all amp in the room as opposed to studio environment where the cab is isolated and mic’d up. So I run through a real cab to put it into a context I’m already familiar with. 

And every time I run it through an FX loop/cab I’m in awe of how great it sounds. And when I run it through my interface/monitors I’m very happy that it retains a lot of that tone and feel even though the kick in the gut isn’t there compared to my 2x12 and 4x12.

But it’s not for everyone obviously. I do think most people don’t compare it very well when saying it does or doesn’t sound like the real amp. It’s not very practical/logical to do so a lot of cases though.


----------



## soul_lip_mike

Deadpool_25 said:


> For me, running through a real amp FX loop and real cab is the best way to demo it. My experience is all amp in the room as opposed to studio environment where the cab is isolated and mic’d up. So I run through a real cab to put it into a context I’m already familiar with.
> 
> And every time I run it through an FX loop/cab I’m in awe of how great it sounds. And when I run it through my interface/monitors I’m very happy that it retains a lot of that tone and feel even though the kick in the gut isn’t there compared to my 2x12 and 4x12.
> 
> But it’s not for everyone obviously. I do think most people don’t compare it very well when saying it does or doesn’t sound like the real amp. It’s not very practical/logical to do so a lot of cases though.



What is your full signal chain when doing amp FX loop and what changes do you make in the FM3? I'm guessing disaable power amp?


----------



## cwhitey2

Gmork said:


> Someone just offered me their fm3 floor unit for my engl fireball100...... Hmm


...I mean I would do it if you have a another amp. Maybe have them throw a little cash in on their end.

What does your entire rig setup look like? Home and recording...


----------



## Deadpool_25

soul_lip_mike said:


> What is your full signal chain when doing amp FX loop and what changes do you make in the FM3? I'm guessing disaable power amp?



Full signal chain is:
Guitar > FM3 input > FM3 Output 2 > Amp FX return > Cab

On the FM3 you can disable power amps in the global menu or for an individual amp by turning sag to 0.0 on a model. However, I find quite a few amps sound and feel more lively with a touch of sag so I’ll often set sag to 0.1 which is its minimum “on” setting.


----------



## technomancer

So anybody tried one of these 4CM as an fx unit?


----------



## Meeotch

technomancer said:


> So anybody tried one of these 4CM as an fx unit?


Yes! I'm curious about how the FM3 compares to the FX8 for 4cm applications, effects only. So far I've been astonished by the FX8's transparency.


----------



## FancyFish

So, this thread (and @budda) convinced me to get a FM3 and it just arrived today!


----------



## sakeido

FancyFish said:


> So, this thread (and @budda) convinced me to get a FM3 and it just arrived today!



so did mine! Now I have to re-do all my cables... Again.

I only took a 2.5 year break from Fractal and am blown away at how much better they got in the meantime. FM Edit is so much more user friendly and pretty to look at than the old Axe Edit. Very quick and easy to lay out a tone now and they've exposed a ton more controls than you had on the Axe 2 so you can pretty much mod your amps in the interface... very cool. 

The tones themselves I think have been great since the Axe FX Ultra days, way back when, except cleans and low gain tones. They pretty much could only do that super clean and spanky Tesseract clean from what I recall and the rest were pretty meh. I remember dialing in some really convincing 5150 sounds, through a tube power amp, back in 2010 or so, but the power amp modeling didn't get really good until Axe 2. Then it sounded fine in the mix but still never felt quite right to play. They seem to have it nailed now - tones are very dynamic, the feel is better than ever, rolling off the volume or playing gently responds just the way it should. It's good enough I think I'd actually consider a FRFR rig for the first time.

I wish the unit was as sexy as a Helix but ah well, that's not how Fractal do. Great buy.


----------



## Emperoff

You guys ain't helping my GAS for the FM3, but I gotta agree that the neural DSP plugs I got gifted this christmas sound pretty damn good and will cover my needs for the time being.

I wouldn't have spent a dime on that company otherwise, but hey, I can't complain


----------



## sakeido

Emperoff said:


> You guys ain't helping my GAS for the FM3, but I gotta agree that the neural DSP plugs I got gifted this christmas sound pretty damn good and will cover my needs for the time being.
> 
> I wouldn't have spent a dime on that company otherwise, but hey, I can't complain



imo Neural is pretty much right there with them, they just have way fewer models to choose from. I think I still prefer Fortin Cali over the modded JCM800 options on the Axe but I haven't really sat down to do a shootout yet.. Cali vs. FM3 800 vs. Stiletto would be fun.


----------



## Emperoff

sakeido said:


> imo Neural is pretty much right there with them, they just have way fewer models to choose from. I think I still prefer Fortin Cali over the modded JCM800 options on the Axe but I haven't really sat down to do a shootout yet.. Cali vs. FM3 800 vs. Stiletto would be fun.



Having less models doesn't matter to anyone in the modelling world as soon as there's a 5150s in there, and they have two of them. The Cali alone could probably cover 10 Marshall models in the Axe-FX.

Problem with Neural is... Well, Neural . The current trend of releasing new VST suites instead of an unified suite/framework busts my balls to no end and it's the reason why I don't buy plugins anymore. Plenty of devs are doing the same (Mercuriall for example).

Do you want to use Nolly cabs with Plini? Nope. And FX with the Cali? Nope. You have to load a track with all the plugins and enable or disable the sections manually, which is a pain in the ass workflow-wise (when you could just have a damn preset with everything set up).

I'm not against people making money, but use a goddamn unified framework even if you sell shit separately, like Amplitube or Two Notes do.


----------



## budda

1 marshall in the axe fx can cover 10 if you know how to mod amps


----------



## Emperoff

budda said:


> 1 marshall in the axe fx can cover 10 if you know how to mod amps



I can tell you I'll NEVER visit the "ideal" section of Axe Fx edit, because I actually like to _*play*_ the guitar


----------



## sakeido

budda said:


> 1 marshall in the axe fx can cover 10 if you know how to mod amps



speaking of which, is there a good guide for how to use all these extra settings? I'm sure I could just twist dials but I imagine an Axe nerd somewhere must have laid all this out already.


----------



## broangiel

sakeido said:


> speaking of which, is there a good guide for how to use all these extra settings? I'm sure I could just twist dials but I imagine an Axe nerd somewhere must have laid all this out already.


Leon Todd has a few videos in advanced parameters.


----------



## budda

Emperoff said:


> I can tell you I'll NEVER visit the "ideal" section of Axe Fx edit, because I actually like to _*play*_ the guitar



But thats where input boost lives!



sakeido said:


> speaking of which, is there a good guide for how to use all these extra settings? I'm sure I could just twist dials but I imagine an Axe nerd somewhere must have laid all this out already.



Leon Todd as was mentioned. Super useful stuff.


----------



## cwhitey2

sakeido said:


> speaking of which, is there a good guide for how to use all these extra settings? I'm sure I could just twist dials but I imagine an Axe nerd somewhere must have laid all this out already.


Just use your ears, thats what i do as i have no idea what any of those settings do


----------



## budda

cwhitey2 said:


> Just use your ears, thats what i do as i have no idea what any of those settings do



For the most part the parameter name explains things enough. I dont mess with transformer values etc but i'll try diode changes in an overdrive (ok, only a couple times) and the ideal amp EQ is pretty helpful too.


----------



## laxu

sakeido said:


> speaking of which, is there a good guide for how to use all these extra settings? I'm sure I could just twist dials but I imagine an Axe nerd somewhere must have laid all this out already.



https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/index.php?title=Category:Axe-Fx3 has a whopping ton of info on what they all do.

Personally I find that there are lots of advanced params that are so subtle that there is no point exposing them to the end user. It can be fun messing with things in the amp block like tube types, different tone stacks, master volumes etc.

The cab block is still going to be your most powerful tone shaper.

As for Axe-Fx tones, the videos that originally sold me on the Axe-Fx Standard 10 years ago were the ones from Ketil Strand. I thought at the time that it was impressive how many different tones he could coax out of this ugly rack unit looking box.




Of course the Axe-Fx 2/AX8 and 3/FM3 sound much better than that nowadays.


----------



## cwhitey2

budda said:


> For the most part the parameter name explains things enough. I dont mess with transformer values etc but i'll try diode changes in an overdrive (ok, only a couple times) and the ideal amp EQ is pretty helpful too.


I agree, but deff mess with the transformer settings, they make way of a difference then i thought they would. Imo they change how the amp feels.


----------



## budda

cwhitey2 said:


> I agree, but deff mess with the transformer settings, they make way of a difference then i thought they would. Imo they change how the amp feels.



Well it should


----------



## cwhitey2

budda said:


> Well it should


I guess i didnt realize how big the difference would be since you never realistically mod that part of an amp.


----------



## budda

cwhitey2 said:


> I guess i didnt realize how big the difference would be since you never realistically mod that part of an amp.



People do transformer swaps, especially if they blow one


----------



## Thrashman

budda said:


> People do transformer swaps, especially if they blow one


That's REPLACING, not modding in the way we talk about modding.


----------



## budda

Thrashman said:


> That's REPLACING, not modding in the way we talk about modding.



And a pickup swap is...?


----------



## MatrixClaw

Thrashman said:


> That's REPLACING, not modding in the way we talk about modding.


Plenty of people have swapped out transformers on their amps. That was Voodoo Mod and FJA's bread and butter modding Peavey amps with Mercury Magnetics trannies.


----------



## soul_lip_mike

broangiel said:


> Leon Todd has a few videos in advanced parameters.



Love his channel. Dude seems to be salt of the earth.


----------



## BenjaminW

soul_lip_mike said:


> Love his channel. Dude seems to be salt of the earth.


Can't think of anyone that kicks as much ass as he does particularly with the Axe-Fx.


----------



## Mathemagician

Emperoff said:


> I can tell you I'll NEVER visit the "ideal" section of Axe Fx edit, because I actually like to _*play*_ the guitar



I watched a Leon Todd guide and learned what like 6 buttons in FM Edit did and also saw him explain the “Authentic” tab and simply said “cool I’ll never touch the other tabs” lol. 



broangiel said:


> Leon Todd has a few videos in advanced parameters.



Just echoing this recommendation. Guy gets right to explaining/walking through things, doesn’t rush, and then moves to the next thing.


----------



## soul_lip_mike

Mathemagician said:


> “Authentic” tab


What's that?


----------



## broangiel

soul_lip_mike said:


> What's that?


There are two views for the main amp page in the Axe Fx: Ideal and Authentic. Ideal shows all of the controls (that will fit on the main screen) regardless of what controls actually exist on the physical amp. Authentic only shows the controls that exist on the physical amp.


----------



## wakjob

This was awesome...


----------



## Shask

Mathemagician said:


> I watched a Leon Todd guide and learned what like 6 buttons in FM Edit did and also saw him explain the “Authentic” tab and simply said “cool I’ll never touch the other tabs” lol.
> 
> 
> 
> Just echoing this recommendation. Guy gets right to explaining/walking through things, doesn’t rush, and then moves to the next thing.


I have been liking his old rack units videos lately. Every one of them makes me want to buy an older rack unit, lol.


----------



## Deadpool_25

I don't know why on the 5153 preset, they saved it on the scene with the Green channel. That shit was confusing at first. Sometimes I can forget to check all the scenes in each preset.

"Hm, let's check out the 5153 preset. WTF. That doesn't sound anything like what I expected. Oh it's on the Green channel??" Ugh.

I sure wish Fractal had a sweet front end UI like you see on the NDSP plugins. You know, with graphic depictions of the amps so it's instantly obvious which amp/channel I'm actually on lol.

Anyway, I'm waaaaay past the honeymoon phase with this thing and it still blows me away with how good it sounds.


----------



## Mathemagician

I need to sell my old scarlet interface I’d been holding on to as this is more than acceptable.


----------



## soul_lip_mike

I literally havent touched my invective+2x12 since I got my FM3. I bought a pair of headrush FRFR108's for the FM3 and it is just incredible. I ended up getting an FC6 because the 3 switches on just the FM3 are a bit of a pain in the ass to use. OMG9 layout is so much better.


----------



## Deadpool_25

soul_lip_mike said:


> I literally havent touched my invective+2x12 since I got my FM3. I bought a pair of headrush FRFR108's for the FM3 and it is just incredible. I ended up getting an FC6 because the 3 switches on just the FM3 are a bit of a pain in the ass to use. OMG9 layout is so much better.



I feel like I’ve been hearing good things about those Headrush 108s.


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

Mathemagician said:


> I need to sell my old scarlet interface I’d been holding on to as this is more than acceptable.



Even though I rarely used the modelling in the last 6 months I had it, this is what I miss after selling my AF3 - the convenience - it was a central focal point and sooooooo convenient.

..I still haven't got round to sorting out a decent interface, I might take a punt on the QC or FM3 ..


----------



## laxu

Mathemagician said:


> I need to sell my old scarlet interface I’d been holding on to as this is more than acceptable.


I can't get along with any of the modelers on the market when used as audio interfaces because they lack all the basic controls like easily controlling the volume of various inputs.

When you are just using to record your guitar and play tracks in your DAW they will work perfectly fine. No mic pres on most units and often latencies are no better than cheap audio interfaces.

IMO it's still worth having a separate audio interface. I have one turned on all day long and I'd rather not subject a far more expensive modeler to daily use when 90% of the time I would not be using it as a guitar processor.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Even having the FM3 I bought a Scarlett anyway. I like some of the onboard functions and the number of inputs and such.


----------



## MatrixClaw

Anyone see that Cliff is teasing the end of Ares with a new modeling technology in the next release, Cygnus? Supposedly coming to FM3! Interested to hear more!


----------



## Mathemagician

MatrixClaw said:


> Anyone see that Cliff is teasing the end of Ares with a new modeling technology in the next release, Cygnus? Supposedly coming to FM3! Interested to hear more!



HOW can they make my 5153 any better?!


----------



## Deadpool_25

I hadn’t seen that but...cool. Hard to imagine the amp models sounding better than they do now.

I think the real strides to be made by Fractal are in the user interface/experience department. Many longtime users are quite comfortable with it and some new users learn it relatively fast, but I think many potential buyers are put off by the somewhat dated and clunky navigation as compared to things like the Helix and now the QC.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Mathemagician said:


> HOW can they make my 5153 any better?!



Every time you select an amp model, Cygnus will spawn an instance of the actual amp.


----------



## MatrixClaw

Deadpool_25 said:


> I hadn’t seen that but...cool. Hard to imagine the amp models sounding better than they do now.
> 
> I think the real strides to be made by Fractal are in the user interface/experience department. Many longtime users are quite comfortable with it and some new users learn it relatively fast, but I think many potential buyers are put off by the somewhat dated and clunky navigation as compared to things like the Helix and now the QC.


I think the speculation is that they've refined the modeling to take up less DSP, which might come in handy on the FM3, and the UI has been improved. Of course, Cliff is pretty tight lipped aside from a yes/no answer on the forum. I know they've been talking about tone capture tech a bit over there and the idea that you could capture a sound inside the AxeFX at a fixed setting and potentially free up enough DSP to run two amps on the FM3. That'd be cool.


----------



## Mathemagician

MatrixClaw said:


> I think the speculation is that they've refined the modeling to take up less DSP, which might come in handy on the FM3, and the UI has been improved. Of course, Cliff is pretty tight lipped aside from a yes/no answer on the forum. I know they've been talking about tone capture tech a bit over there and the idea that you could capture a sound inside the AxeFX at a fixed setting and potentially free up enough DSP to run two amps on the FM3. That'd be cool.



While I would have zero idea what to do with this it does sound cool. I’m going to sit down this weekend and force myself to make a simple preset/chain from scratch, and then find out wtf a scene is. That’s the game plan. Then more 5153 of course, but it’ll have to be after.


----------



## Randy

Cygnus sounds too much like Dingus


----------



## Deadpool_25

If they could get the FM3 running two amps....that would be amazing.


----------



## sakeido

Deadpool_25 said:


> If they could get the FM3 running two amps....that would be amazing.



fuck would it ever. I have been so, so happy with my FM3. The tones are outrageously good.. I don't know what a sonic improvement would even sound like.

Two amp blocks on the FM3 would be outstanding. FAS 6160/USA Lead for life.


----------



## NosralTserrof

Hey, how long does Fractal usually run their sale? I assume the $2100 price on their site isn't going to last long. 

Considering selling *my* tremoverb now...


----------



## technomancer

NosralTserrof said:


> Hey, how long does Fractal usually run their sale? I assume the $2100 price on their site isn't going to last long.
> 
> Considering selling *my* tremoverb now...



It's been that price for months


----------



## laxu

Deadpool_25 said:


> I hadn’t seen that but...cool. Hard to imagine the amp models sounding better than they do now.
> 
> I think the real strides to be made by Fractal are in the user interface/experience department. Many longtime users are quite comfortable with it and some new users learn it relatively fast, but I think many potential buyers are put off by the somewhat dated and clunky navigation as compared to things like the Helix and now the QC.



Having used the Axe-Fx 2 through the Quantum and Ares firmwares, while they were better sounding, they were more like "Huh, I did not know what I was missing" where the older firmware sounded great too. I don't expect Cygnus to be any gamechanger for 3rd gen Fractal users either.

Interestingly at the same time Line6's soon to be released Helix 3.1 firmware is supposed to also be an amp modeling improvement. I hope we see some Helix 3.1 vs Fractal Cygnus vs Quad Cortex comparisons when all are released. Maybe Leo Gibson will do one.

I am totally on board with Fractal needing to also put more effort into other areas than just the modeling. They need to hire some UI/UX experts and devs to work towards making the units better to use. Now I bet I will get a lot of people saying "well, it works just fine for me" but that does not mean it cannot be better, more effortless and faster. There's a lot of low hanging fruit they could use to improve it.

If I were to do it, the first thing I would add is a single row quick view of selected block's controls at the bottom of the grid, similar to Helix and QC. It reduces user disorientation when you are not jumping between different views all the time and makes it much faster to navigate between editable things and doing quick tweaks. IMO it's the major difference between the competition vs Fractal. Axe-Edit already works exactly like this and the FM3/Axe-Fx 3 display has enough pixels to make it work.


----------



## Deadpool_25

@laxu 
The UI is the place with the most room for improvement imo. As you said, low hanging fruit.

Picking up the convo from the other thread, I’m lucky to be in a house with insanely cool neighbors around me. I don’t play loud often or for long but they don’t mind when I do.

The FM3 through a really good FX loop/cab is just phenomenal. I believe I could get away with just the FM3, the Fridman, and (for stereo) the Invective. Both amps have stellar FX loops. But amps are just fun so I’ll probably keep the Stealth and the Badlander is still on order. I could certainly sell the EL34 and the 6505 off though. They’re packed up in boxes in the garage lol.


----------



## cardinal

I am blaming this thread. I just ordered a used AFXIII and controller despite hating the AFXII. I don't know why I just did that. Hope I like it!


----------



## Mathemagician

cardinal said:


> I am blaming this thread. I just ordered a used AFXIII and controller despite hating the AFXII. I don't know why I just did that. Hope I like it!



Just download axe edit and never use the onboard UI. I mean it’s not impossible, it’s just “why bother”?


----------



## cardinal

Mathemagician said:


> Just download axe edit and never use the onboard UI. I mean it’s not impossible, it’s just “why bother”?



I just looked at the manual and OMG. I just want it to make amp sounds come out of my speakers. How do you hook it to a computer? USB to USB?


----------



## Mathemagician

There are some drivers to download onto your laptop, and then when you plug it in to the laptop (I use USB B to USB aA) it will prompt the download of FM3 Edit updates. 

It’s easy enough to scroll through presets and select one, change channel, and change parameters on both the unit and even easier in the editor. 

I have zero patience for learning UI/troubleshooting and I got it working quickly.


----------



## SamSam

cardinal said:


> I just looked at the manual and OMG. I just want it to make amp sounds come out of my speakers. How do you hook it to a computer? USB to USB?



Forget the deep settings menus to start off. Just go:

Drive > 5150 > Cab (Cali 4x12 for me) and set to taste. After that you just add flavour as needed.

It's actually really simple to get a solid tone and just build off of it!


----------



## Deadpool_25

cardinal said:


> I just looked at the manual and OMG. I just want it to make amp sounds come out of my speakers. How do you hook it to a computer? USB to USB?



Yeah it can look overwhelming but getting setup is quite easy. 

You have studio monitors right? Are you currently using an interface? 

The simplest setup up is just guitar > AxeFX > monitors (ideally, connect the monitors to output 1). No computer is needed for getting sounds. You can just start scrolling presets like that. Initially, I recommend the arrow buttons to scroll through presets and scenes. From the Home Screen the right arrow goes to the next preset, the down arrow goes to the next scene inside the preset. There are many other ways to navigate but that’s the simplest to explain and to start with.

I _definitely_ recommend starting like that and just getting a feel for the sounds and basic navigating through presets and scenes.

Hook the USB to the computer when you want to use the editor.


----------



## cardinal

Deadpool_25 said:


> Yeah it can look overwhelming but getting setup is quite easy.
> 
> You have studio monitors right? Are you currently using an interface?
> 
> The simplest setup up is just guitar > AxeFX > monitors (ideally, connect the monitors to output 1). No computer is needed for getting sounds. You can just start scrolling presets like that. Initially, I recommend the arrow buttons to scroll through presets and scenes. From the Home Screen the right arrow goes to the next preset, the down arrow goes to the next scene inside the preset. There are many other ways to navigate but that’s the simplest to explain and to start with.
> 
> I _definitely_ recommend starting like that and just getting a feel for the sounds and basic navigating through presets and scenes.
> 
> Hook the USB to the computer when you want to use the editor.



I sold my monitors a while ago unfortunately when I decided I hated modelers hahaha.

I'm hoping to get up and running quickly by just plug into a beastly power amp (Crest CA9) and the various guitar and bass cabs I have. I was never happy with the AFXII when I ran it this way, but I was using a power amp the size of a deck of cards. I'm really hoping the CA-9 will be the difference maker.

I only used the monitors after the AFXII was gone and I was trying to get by with Positive Grid BIAS which sounded ok but oddly gave me terrible headaches and was too much hassle having to plug in through all the wires and dongles into an iPad. Since I truly do not want to mess with advanced editing menus, hopefully there's no need to connect a computer to the Fractal except occasionally.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Ah so we are talking using power amp and speakers? Ok that takes just a tiny bit more setting up. Hookups should be similar: guitar > AxeFX > power amp > cab(s). In this case I’d recommend firing up the editor. Let me explain:

Most will recommend you go into the global menu and turn off power amp and cabinet modeling. That’s not bad advice and you definitely want to do that with the cab modeling, but you might try it with power amp modeling both on and off, and with varying settings when on. In the amp block there’s a Power Supply page. Play with the Supply Sag setting. I found that sometimes I like turn it all the way down which turns the power amp modeling off (it’ll actually say “P.A. OFF”). But a lot of times I like it at 0.01 which just adds a little something.


----------



## cardinal

Deadpool_25 said:


> Ah so we are talking using power amp and speakers? Ok that takes just a tiny bit more setting up. Hookups should be similar: guitar > AxeFX > power amp > cab(s). In this case I’d recommend firing up the editor. Let me explain:
> 
> Most will recommend you go into the global menu and turn off power amp and cabinet modeling. That’s not bad advice and you definitely want to do that with the cab modeling, but you might try it with power amp modeling both on and off, and with varying settings when on. In the amp block there’s a Power Supply page. Play with the Supply Sag setting. I found that sometimes I like turn it all the way down which turns the power amp modeling off (it’ll actually say “P.A. OFF”). But a lot of times I like it at 0.01 which just adds a little something.



Thanks! The Crest is a pro-sound/PA type power amp, so I would expect to use the simulated tube power amps with it. It just has enormous power and a certain depth and "slam" that works well with bass guitar that I hope translates to guitar modeling.


----------



## SamSam

If the power amp is very transparent you can still use the simulated PA as well. Honestly the best thing to do with that is just try both ways and see what sounds best. If using an fx loop on a head I would turn it off, but with my matrix power amp I often leave it on.


----------



## c7spheres

But how does it feel and respond to dynamics and breakup?


----------



## soul_lip_mike




----------



## sakeido

c7spheres said:


> But how does it feel and respond to dynamics and breakup?



absolutely fantastically

That's the biggest improvement over the old hardware, I think. There were a lot of good full bore gain tones in Axe 2, in my experience anyway, but you could still occasionally expose that modeler issue where it sounded undynamic, grainy, digital, whatever if you rolled off volume or played softly

Totally gone now, imo. The response is really organic. I think the Mark IV model is a little too dynamic, actually, but they expose so many settings now you could probably tweak a model to act more like how you want it.

Clean and low gain tones are a lot more fun to play with now because you can lean into the strings harder and play in and out of distortion in ways you couldn't really before.


----------



## laxu

soul_lip_mike said:


> View attachment 89958



That's more like what they should have cost from the start.


----------



## soul_lip_mike

laxu said:


> That's more like what they should have cost from the start.


Not bad. I think total I paid $999 for my FM3 and $499 for my FC6.


----------



## MatrixClaw

soul_lip_mike said:


> View attachment 89958


Just saw that email this morning. Wish they'd give a discount to existing FM3 users, cause I'd have bought the FC-6 combo when I got mine if it was that price. The FC-6 wasn't even in stock then, though, so it's not like I could've paid full price, either 



sakeido said:


> absolutely fantastically
> 
> That's the biggest improvement over the old hardware, I think. There were a lot of good full bore gain tones in Axe 2, in my experience anyway, but you could still occasionally expose that modeler issue where it sounded undynamic, grainy, digital, whatever if you rolled off volume or played softly
> 
> Totally gone now, imo. The response is really organic. I think the Mark IV model is a little too dynamic, actually, but they expose so many settings now you could probably tweak a model to act more like how you want it.
> 
> Clean and low gain tones are a lot more fun to play with now because you can lean into the strings harder and play in and out of distortion in ways you couldn't really before.


Agreed. This is what has impressed me with my FM3 the most. It's so responsive.


----------



## budda

Cygnus.


----------



## Deadpool_25

budda said:


> Cygnus.



Pretty sure they just give you penicillin for that.


----------



## Mathemagician

Deadpool_25 said:


> Pretty sure they just give you penicillin for that.



Yeah it’s not that bad. All the boys caught it overseas at least once.


----------



## Nik_Left_RG

MatrixClaw said:


> Just saw that email this morning. Wish they'd give a discount to existing FM3 users, cause I'd have bought the FC-6 combo when I got mine if it was that price. The FC-6 wasn't even in stock then, though, so it's not like I could've paid full price, either
> 
> 
> Agreed. This is what has impressed me with my FM3 the most. It's so responsive.



Glad to hear that. How bad is CPU Maxing out issue though ? 

I am tossing between QC vs FM3 .. and planning to jump in few months later ..


----------



## MatrixClaw

Nik_Left_RG said:


> Glad to hear that. How bad is CPU Maxing out issue though ?
> 
> I am tossing between QC vs FM3 .. and planning to jump in few months later ..


I haven't even gotten close to maxing out the FM3. Not sure what people are doing to max it.

QC definitely intrigues me but I'm not convinced it's as "game changing" as they claim. The interface and hardware looks great (aside from the buttons looking a bit too close for live use) but I've yet to hear any clips of it that wowed me. Definitely will have to wait to hear more - the capture function is cool but I had a Kemper and sold it for a reason. I have serious hesitations that the effects are as good, Fractal's effects are top quality. All comes down to the modeling for me and it's gotta be a lot better to be worth the price difference.


----------



## Nik_Left_RG

Agreed. The only thing that's holding me back from getting a FM3 now is the CPU thing. QC in a new thing and it has me intrigued but except for that one video from Tom Quale where he showed a bit on harmonic feedback, everything else has been Okish (not outstanding). I am glad to hear that you have not faced any issues yet though. I am in no hurry anyways.. Does the FM3 provide that 3d kinda sound with harmonic overtones ? 

I would probably be playing mostly through headphones. Does the dynamics / sponginess / sag come through when using headphones ?


----------



## budda

Nik_Left_RG said:


> Glad to hear that. How bad is CPU Maxing out issue though ?
> 
> I am tossing between QC vs FM3 .. and planning to jump in few months later ..



Might I suggest the one you can buy right now with the track record .


----------



## Nik_Left_RG

budda said:


> Might I suggest the one you can buy right now with the track record .



While I do somewhat agree with your point, I am still not sure about this part - I would probably be playing mostly through headphones. Does the dynamics / sponginess / sag come through when using headphones ?

[I'll be using a pair of DT 990s 250 Ohms, if that makes a difference.. Can't have a Monitor, for now]


----------



## budda

Nik_Left_RG said:


> While I do somewhat agree with your point, I am still not sure about this part - I would probably be playing mostly through headphones. Does the dynamics / sponginess / sag come through when using headphones ?
> 
> [I'll be using a pair of DT 990s 250 Ohms, if that makes a difference.. Can't have a Monitor, for now]



Yes headphones work fine. That is how I run my 3 and I have 0 issues, as do other owners. At no point do I miss real amps or feel anything is lacking. Get the FM3 and enjoy playing .


----------



## Nik_Left_RG

budda said:


> Yes headphones work fine. That is how I run my 3 and I have 0 issues, as do other owners. At no point do I miss real amps or feel anything is lacking. Get the FM3 and enjoy playing .



Appreciate the inputs.. glad to hear that there seems to no issues with feel. I will still wait to see/hear some review of QC (vs FM3) and make my decision. Like I said, I am in no hurry atm..


----------



## cardinal

Had a few minutes so far with the AFXIII. Dialed up something as close as I could to my main amp (an old Marshall JMP 2204 boosted with an SD-1 into an old 1960a cab). 

I ran the AFX into a Crest CA-9 power amp into my 1960a. Bypassed any digital cab sims and effects. Just used Brit 800 set about like my 2204 and the Super OD drive block. 

Sounds really good. Dynamics seem about right. Like the real thing, it cleans up and rounds out a bit when I back off my pick attack. 

My only immediate nit is that notes and chords don't seem to bloom while sustaining the way they do on the real thing. But the sound itself as sustaining notes decay was great.


----------



## budda

cardinal said:


> Had a few minutes so far with the AFXIII. Dialed up something as close as I could to my main amp (an old Marshall JMP 2204 boosted with an SD-1 into an old 1960a cab).
> 
> I ran the AFX into a Crest CA-9 power amp into my 1960a. Bypassed any digital cab sims and effects. Just used Brit 800 set about like my 2204 and the Super OD drive block.
> 
> Sounds really good. Dynamics seem about right. Like the real thing, it cleans up and rounds out a bit when I back off my pick attack.
> 
> My only immediate nit is that notes and chords don't seem to bloom while sustaining the way they do on the real thing. But the sound itself as sustaining notes decay was great.



What volume do you have the amp at in the amp block versus level?


----------



## cardinal

budda said:


> What volume do you have the amp at in the amp block versus level?



The Brit 800 master was around 9 o'clock. I need to play more with that. The tone was a bit blurry for my tastes around noon, where it was on the stock preset. But maybe I'd like it more somewhere between 9 to 12 o'clock.

FWIW, I practically never run the JMP's volume about 9 or 10 o'clock because I value my hearing...


----------



## Deadpool_25

Nik_Left_RG said:


> Glad to hear that. How bad is CPU Maxing out issue though ?
> 
> I am tossing between QC vs FM3 .. and planning to jump in few months later ..



Can you give an example signal chain that you might want to put together? I can throw something together and let you know where it’s at CPU-wise. One big thing was when the put economy reverbs in. The reverbs were eating a ton of CPU. The economy ones eat way less and still sound fantastic.


----------



## budda

cardinal said:


> The Brit 800 master was around 9 o'clock. I need to play more with that. The tone was a bit blurry for my tastes around noon, where it was on the stock preset. But maybe I'd like it more somewhere between 9 to 12 o'clock.
> 
> FWIW, I practically never run the JMP's volume about 9 or 10 o'clock because I value my hearing...



Earplugs!

Signed,

2203 on 8.


----------



## cardinal

budda said:


> Earplugs!
> 
> Signed,
> 
> 2203 on 8.



Haha. I had a couple of 1959s over the years and those were so violently loud, it honestly was a bit scary standing too close to the cabs. 8 or so was right where I wanted the volume, though.


----------



## cardinal

So I won't completely highjack the thread, but to follow up, the amp block by itself sounds great and does that blooming sustain thing. Using the SD-1 drive block to boost the front of it seems to squash it and gave it a bit of a nasal sound.

But using the amp block's input boost function set for SD-1 mode or whatever is much more natural and preserves that sustain. 

Seems odd to have what I assume would be the same thing in different places and not actually the same thing, but whatever. Nice to have options I guess.


----------



## broangiel

cardinal said:


> So I won't completely highjack the thread, but to follow up, the amp block by itself sounds great and does that blooming sustain thing. Using the SD-1 drive block to boost the front of it seems to squash it and gave it a bit of a nasal sound.
> 
> But using the amp block's input boost function set for SD-1 mode or whatever is much more natural and preserves that sustain.
> 
> Seems odd to have what I assume would be the same thing in different places and not actually the same thing, but whatever. Nice to have options I guess.


The Drive Blocks are modeling the whole pedal, whereas the Boost options in the Amp Block are simply EQ curves with a volume control. I, too, sometimes prefer the results I get with the Boost over the Drive.


----------



## Nik_Left_RG

Deadpool_25 said:


> Can you give an example signal chain that you might want to put together? I can throw something together and let you know where it’s at CPU-wise. One big thing was when the put economy reverbs in. The reverbs were eating a ton of CPU. The economy ones eat way less and still sound fantastic.



Thanks Deadpool.

Ideally, I would have a Clean Channel as - Guitar > Comp >Amp > Chorus > Delay > Reverb > Cab > (Eq ?)
-Hall Reverb / Spacious 
-Ping pong delay / long delays
- Could have a phaser or flanger instead of Chorus or in addition
- Not sure where the EQ comes in.. Where would I put an EQ block to copy a Mark amp ?

Dirty Channel Rhy : Guitar > Amp > Reverb > Cab > (Eq?)
Lead Channel : Guitar > Amp > Delay > Reverb > Cab (Eq ?)

I am assuming my Dirt channels would be fine, limited to a single amp of course. My Clean channel could have a higher CPU usage..


----------



## Deadpool_25

Nik_Left_RG said:


> Thanks Deadpool.
> 
> Ideally, I would have a Clean Channel as - Guitar > Comp >Amp > Chorus > Delay > Reverb > Cab > (Eq ?)
> -Hall Reverb / Spacious
> -Ping pong delay / long delays
> - Could have a phaser or flanger instead of Chorus or in addition
> - Not sure where the EQ comes in.. Where would I put an EQ block to copy a Mark amp ?
> 
> Dirty Channel Rhy : Guitar > Amp > Reverb > Cab > (Eq?)
> Lead Channel : Guitar > Amp > Delay > Reverb > Cab (Eq ?)
> 
> I am assuming my Dirt channels would be fine, limited to a single amp of course. My Clean channel could have a higher CPU usage..




Threw together a super quick preset with theses blocks.

Input 1
Comp
Drive
Phaser
Flanger
Amp
Cab (1 block with dual cabs)
Chorus
Graphic EQ
Multi-delay
Delay
Reverb (economy)
Output

That’s sitting at about 77% so you’re near the “cap” (you get warnings around 85% ...setting the reverb to normal gets there).

That’s a lot of blocks, and more than you mentioned. So bottom line, while the QC has more processing power, the FM3 has more than enough to do what you mentioned.

Also the amp block has an input EQ page and an Output EQ page. That output EQ can also be moved to “pre”. So _any amp at all_ can have the Mark-style graphic EQ (one of the selectable types is actually “5 band (Mark)”).

On a real Mark amp, I believe the BMTP controls are before the gain stages and the graphic EQ is after. On most amps the BMTP are after the gain. That’s why a lot of people feel like it’s tough to dial them in. At least that what I think. Hopefully someone will correct me if I’m wrong.


----------



## cardinal

Deadpool_25 said:


> Threw together a super quick preset with theses blocks.
> 
> Input 1
> Comp
> Drive
> Phaser
> Flanger
> Amp
> Cab (1 block with dual cabs)
> Chorus
> Graphic EQ
> Multi-delay
> Delay
> Reverb (economy)
> Output
> 
> That’s sitting at about 77% so you’re near the “cap” (you get warnings around 85% ...setting the reverb to normal gets there).
> 
> That’s a lot of blocks, and more than you mentioned. So bottom line, while the QC has more processing power, the FM3 has more than enough to do what you mentioned.
> 
> Also the amp block has an input EQ page and an Output EQ page. That output EQ can also be moved to “pre”. So _any amp at all_ can have the Mark-style graphic EQ (one of the selectable types is actually “5 band (Mark)”).
> 
> On a real Mark amp, I believe the BMTP controls are before the gain stages and the graphic EQ is after. On most amps the BMTP are after the gain. That’s why a lot of people feel like it’s tough to dial them in. At least that what I think. Hopefully someone will correct me if I’m wrong.



That's right about the Mark eq sections. The eq knobs are in the middle of the gain stages and the GEQ is after everything, right before the power amp.

I don't think they're hard to dial in, it's just weird looking. Bass around 2 or less. Mids around 3 or less. Treble around 7ish. Then the GEQ smile. This at least for me works for every Mark-type amp I've played. I tinkered with some of the AFXIII Mark models this morning and it seems to work for them as well. I'm not sure any of them sounded like they have the Treble pull shift engaged, which I like for heavy tones, but they sounded ok to me as long as the master was kept relatively low.


----------



## Nik_Left_RG

Deadpool_25 said:


> Threw together a super quick preset with theses blocks.
> 
> Input 1
> Comp
> Drive
> Phaser
> Flanger
> Amp
> Cab (1 block with dual cabs)
> Chorus
> Graphic EQ
> Multi-delay
> Delay
> Reverb (economy)
> Output
> 
> That’s sitting at about 77% so you’re near the “cap” (you get warnings around 85% ...setting the reverb to normal gets there).
> ..............



@Deadpool_25 Thanks for doing this. Much appreciated. Gotta say that FM3 seems like the better option at this point.


----------



## TheShreddinHand

Does the FM3 allow you to detune (say making your low B sound like a low A) like the axe 3?


----------



## broangiel

TheShreddinHand said:


> Does the FM3 allow you to detune (say making your low B sound like a low A) like the axe 3?


Yep. Virtual Capo is in both units.
https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/index.php?title=Pitch_block#Pitch_types_and_effects


----------



## Mathemagician

Googly moogly, I need to practice with my unit more.


----------



## soul_lip_mike

Yep! The Austin buddy evh presets all come with an Eb preset so you can play along to Van Halen tuned to standard.


----------



## Nik_Left_RG

Thats awesome


----------



## cardinal

I have to say that after a few days, I'm really enjoying this thing. Some of the models sound like crap, but that could be some combination of user error or that I think a lot of actual amps just sound like crap.

The Plexi 2204 sim is WAY off if it's actually modeled on a '80 JMP 2204 like the Wiki says (I have a '79 JMP 2204), but thankfully the Brit 800 is basically there. The Recto1 Red sim is killer. Sounds very much like a Recto. Maybe more Rev G than F like the Wiki says but close enough.

Struggling a bit with the Mark sims but I may have figured it out by switching some advance cab impedance thingy to the Recto 4x12 large setting. The basic voicing is there. The models seem brighter than the actual amp (and I'm not sure any of them engaged the treble pull shift, which is unfortunate) but turning down the presence etc seems to go a long way to fix that. The models just don't have the wide footprint or wallop of a GEQ Mark (even using the model's GEQ). But switching that cab setting seemed to help a bit. I think it's in there somewhere.


----------



## budda

@cardinal how is the plexi off?


----------



## laxu

cardinal said:


> I have to say that after a few days, I'm really enjoying this thing. Some of the models sound like crap, but that could be some combination of user error or that I think a lot of actual amps just sound like crap.
> 
> The Plexi 2204 sim is WAY off if it's actually modeled on a '80 JMP 2204 like the Wiki says (I have a '79 JMP 2204), but thankfully the Brit 800 is basically there. The Recto1 Red sim is killer. Sounds very much like a Recto. Maybe more Rev G than F like the Wiki says but close enough.
> 
> Struggling a bit with the Mark sims but I may have figured it out by switching some advance cab impedance thingy to the Recto 4x12 large setting. The basic voicing is there. The models seem brighter than the actual amp (and I'm not sure any of them engaged the treble pull shift, which is unfortunate) but turning down the presence etc seems to go a long way to fix that. The models just don't have the wide footprint or wallop of a GEQ Mark (even using the model's GEQ). But switching that cab setting seemed to help a bit. I think it's in there somewhere.



How are you comparing the amps vs models?


----------



## cardinal

budda said:


> @cardinal how is the plexi off?



If the Plex 2204 sim is supposed to sound like a JMP 2204, in comparison the sim has way less gain and is a blurry muddy mess.

To the extent the model is accurate as to some real amp, I wonder if they in fact modeled it on a '76 or '77 2204, which for unexplained reasons did not have the cascaded inputs and thus were rather low gain amps.



laxu said:


> How are you comparing the amps vs models?



I put the AFXIII into a Crest CA9 power amp and then into the same cabs that I used with the real amps.

As for the Mark sims, I even have a Studio Pre and the power section of a Mark coliseum. I disabled the AFXIII power sim and put it into the coliseum power amp, and the AFXIII just doesn't sound like the Studio Pre (which is essentially like a Mark III lead channel).


----------



## budda

What settings are you running with the amp block plexi?

Jcm800's are low gain by today's standards too, so Im a little confused.


----------



## cardinal

budda said:


> What settings are you running with the amp block plexi?
> 
> Jcm800's are low gain by today's standards too, so Im a little confused.



? I have an actual '79 2204. I run the block the way I run the Marshall. The Brit 800 sim essentially sounds like my 2204. The the Plex 2204 sim does not, and is not even close.


----------



## c7spheres

cardinal said:


> ? I have an actual '79 2204. I run the block the way I run the Marshall. The Brit 800 sim essentially sounds like my 2204. The the Plex 2204 sim does not, and is not even close.



I wonder since it's so different if possible they got a couple models mis labeled or something. Just a thought. Maybe email Fractal and ask why it's so different.


----------



## technomancer

cardinal said:


> ? I have an actual '79 2204. I run the block the way I run the Marshall. The Brit 800 sim essentially sounds like my 2204. The the Plex 2204 sim does not, and is not even close.



Given the name is Plex 2204 maybe it's modeling the 4 hole version...


----------



## cardinal

c7spheres said:


> I wonder since it's so different if possible they got a couple models mis labeled or something. Just a thought. Maybe email Fractal and ask why it's so different.



I suspect they got the year wrong and it's a non-cascaded '76 or '77 model.


----------



## cardinal

technomancer said:


> Given the name is Plex 2204 maybe it's modeling the 4 hole version...



Very well could be, and there were no Plexi panel 2204s. The Wiki suggests it was an '80 JMP, but those would have looked essentially identical to the earlier 2204s that would have had the same relatively puny preamp gain as a 4-holer without the cascaded inputs.

Positive note is that I'm pretty happy with the Mark sims. I think I like the Mark IV sim best for metal stuff. Changing that deep cab setting can make a huge difference to the model's sound.


----------



## budda

Anything running in the ideal tab that shouldnt be?

Worth posting on the fractal forum - i havent seen any scrutiny on that specific model afaik.


----------



## cardinal

budda said:


> Anything running in the ideal tab that shouldnt be?
> 
> Worth posting on the fractal forum - i havent seen any scrutiny on that specific model afaik.



Haha you've lost me at Ideal Tab. The knobs that I see on the screen make sense. TMB. Presence. Master. And some type of gain control. Looks like a master volume Marshall.


----------



## cardinal

The Wiki has a quote that "Our model is based on a 1981 2204 Master Volume JMP. It has a different circuit than a JCM800." 

So the cascaded-input JMP 2204 does have the same circuit as the JCM 2204. The plate voltages increased and they stopped using mustard caps, but the circuits are the same. 

So somewhere something went wrong in the description. Again, I'm assuming Fractal was modeling one without the cascaded inputs, which is a different circuit (essentially a 1987 with a pre-phase inverter master).


----------



## budda

cardinal said:


> Haha you've lost me at Ideal Tab. The knobs that I see on the screen make sense. TMB. Presence. Master. And some type of gain control. Looks like a master volume Marshall.



Worth looking at to see if something is engaged unexpectedly.


----------



## cardinal

Somehow I'd missed the JP IIC+ sims. Those sound like a Mark with the Treble Shift pulled (which supposed is how the actual amp is hardwired). Sounds killer.


----------



## laxu

cardinal said:


> I put the AFXIII into a Crest CA9 power amp and then into the same cabs that I used with the real amps.



Did you match the volumes with a decibel meter?


----------



## cardinal

laxu said:


> Did you match the volumes with a decibel meter?



I did not. The the sounds I'm complaining of are wildly different; I'm confident in the difference in sound without marching decibels just as I'm confident that a 5150 sounds different than an SLO despite not having owned both amps simultaneously and not comparing those amps at matching decibels.

I do like the unit. 

I did A/B the Brit 800 sim with my 2204 at various volume levels and if there's a difference, it's not worth worrying about. That is a great sim IMHO. 

I don't have a Recto anymore, but the Recto1 sim sure sounds like the Rectos that I remember. I know it's not like a Rev C without the need for decibel matching because the Rev C was painfully bright if the presence was over 9:00 and could blast out tight, fast riffs on my low F# string in a way the sim cannot. But the sim is essentially like the other Rectos I've had; I'm not really confident enough to guess what Rev it is beyond that it's not a Rev C. 

I'm a lot happier with the Mark sims now that I stumbled into some odd cabinet-type setting deep in some menu. I have not gone back to A/B with the Studio Pre since then, but I'm not sure it really matters. It's pretty clear the sims are brighter if I set the controls the same way as my amps; and again that difference is vast and obvious across a range of decibels. But it's fine. I don't really need the sims to sound exactly like a particular Mesa Mark. I just want them to sound good and now I think they do.


----------



## Nik_Left_RG

I have searching Youtube for a video which shows harmonic overtones using FM3 but nothing so far. Looking for something like in this video - 

I know its based on speaker n guitar positioning but I have noticed that NDSP Plini plug-in did it in the default Plini lead settings. Through headphones. Not as prominent but it did have that nice harmonic overtone..


----------



## MatrixClaw

cardinal said:


> I did not. The the sounds I'm complaining of are wildly different; I'm confident in the difference in sound without marching decibels just as I'm confident that a 5150 sounds different than an SLO despite not having owned both amps simultaneously and not comparing those amps at matching decibels.
> 
> I do like the unit.
> 
> I did A/B the Brit 800 sim with my 2204 at various volume levels and if there's a difference, it's not worth worrying about. That is a great sim IMHO.
> 
> I don't have a Recto anymore, but the Recto1 sim sure sounds like the Rectos that I remember. I know it's not like a Rev C without the need for decibel matching because the Rev C was painfully bright if the presence was over 9:00 and could blast out tight, fast riffs on my low F# string in a way the sim cannot. But the sim is essentially like the other Rectos I've had; I'm not really confident enough to guess what Rev it is beyond that it's not a Rev C.
> 
> I'm a lot happier with the Mark sims now that I stumbled into some odd cabinet-type setting deep in some menu. I have not gone back to A/B with the Studio Pre since then, but I'm not sure it really matters. It's pretty clear the sims are brighter if I set the controls the same way as my amps; and again that difference is vast and obvious across a range of decibels. But it's fine. I don't really need the sims to sound exactly like a particular Mesa Mark. I just want them to sound good and now I think they do.


I haven't played with the Mark settings a ton, but it definitely does sound like my Mark IV, just not as "sweet," which is why I'll be keeping that amp. It gets close enough to my EVH to call it a wash, it sound identical to my Trem-O-Verb so I sold it and there's no DSL modeling in it, but the JVM and Friedman models are similar but even better. It's actually good to hear that the 800 model is very close to your Marshall - I'd tried loading it up and playing with it and was honestly kind of disappointed but then switched to the Friedman BE and cranked the power amp, keeping the gain low and that thing sounded awesome, just like what I remember my 2204 sounding like.


----------



## cardinal

Hahaha just spent an hour obsessing over some digital-sounding artifacts that I was sure I was hearing in the Fractal patches, only to plug into a real amp and hear the same things haha. I truly have golden ears.


----------



## Mathemagician

cardinal said:


> Hahaha just spent an hour obsessing over some digital-sounding artifacts that I was sure I was hearing in the Fractal patches, only to plug into a real amp and hear the same things haha. I truly have golden ears.



When you’re happy about being wrong.


----------



## Deadpool_25

I was messing with the Plexi preset and I thought it sounded amazing. I don’t have a real Plexi to compare it with though.

Which is worth thinking about. If you JUST used the Fractal models without a/b’ing them...how good do they sound? I’m certainly “guilty” of a/b’ing a lot but I find that no matter which of my amps/channels/amp models I’m playing through, they all sound really good. One only becomes “better” or “worse” if I directly a/b.


----------



## cardinal

Deadpool_25 said:


> I was messing with the Plexi preset and I thought it sounded amazing. I don’t have a real Plexi to compare it with though.
> 
> Which is worth thinking about. If you JUST used the Fractal models without a/b’ing them...how good do they sound? I’m certainly “guilty” of a/b’ing a lot but I find that no matter which of my amps/channels/amp models I’m playing through, they all sound really good. One only becomes “better” or “worse” if I directly a/b.



Yeah, I've tried to just stop A/B with the amps I have because it's just counter productive. Just make it sound good, which thing easily can do.


----------



## budda

The a/b thing was addressed by Cliff on the fractal forum, if anyone's interested.


----------



## Randy

cardinal said:


> Hahaha just spent an hour obsessing over some digital-sounding artifacts that I was sure I was hearing in the Fractal patches, only to plug into a real amp and hear the same things haha. I truly have golden ears.



I had this happen. 

Before I bought my FM3, I obsessed over digital artifacts, so I went on a tear for a couple years, built a Dumble clone, bought a 2210, 2203, my Rivera, some other tube amps along the way, built an all analog pedalboard, few cabs (including an iso cab), got an Apogee Duet because the preamp was well reviewed, a few mics etc. Sat down to record a few times and realized the tones sounded just as fake as TH-U and Bias that I was using at the time, and I sold everything off within like a month out of disgust


----------



## laxu

Deadpool_25 said:


> I was messing with the Plexi preset and I thought it sounded amazing. I don’t have a real Plexi to compare it with though.
> 
> Which is worth thinking about. If you JUST used the Fractal models without a/b’ing them...how good do they sound? I’m certainly “guilty” of a/b’ing a lot but I find that no matter which of my amps/channels/amp models I’m playing through, they all sound really good. One only becomes “better” or “worse” if I directly a/b.



The funny thing is how people are so obsessed over which modeler sounds exactly like some tube amp yet the majority of users have never used even a fraction of the amps modeled, don't own them or don't understand how to set up an actual like for like comparison, which would be one of these:

Tube amp > reactive load > cab sim. Modeler > same cab sim. Listened through the same output devices at the same output levels and volume.
Tube amp > guitar cab. Modeler > neutral poweramp > same guitar cab. Both of these setups would need to be volume matched with a decibel meter.
Typically people try to compare a modeler through some not-at-all-flat headphones (most on the market) or maybe budget class studio monitors at best and then wonder why it does not sound like their 4x12 halfstack.

But ultimately the question is "do I like how this feels to play and sounds" and for me that has been a definite yes ever since the Axe-Fx Standard was released. For A/B between the modeled amps, there's a huge ton of overlap in them on the Fractal units, just like the real amps are based on something like a dozen different archetype amps that have been then tweaked to make a new amp. I own a Bogner instead of a Marshall mostly due to the feature set difference but with modeled amps that's not relevant.


----------



## Allexi

laxu said:


> The funny thing is how people are so obsessed over which modeler sounds exactly like some tube amp yet the majority of users have never used even a fraction of the amps modeled, don't own them or don't understand how to set up an actual like for like comparison, which would be one of these:
> 
> Tube amp > reactive load > cab sim. Modeler > same cab sim. Listened through the same output devices at the same output levels and volume.
> Tube amp > guitar cab. Modeler > neutral poweramp > same guitar cab. Both of these setups would need to be volume matched with a decibel meter.
> Typically people try to compare a modeler through some not-at-all-flat headphones (most on the market) or maybe budget class studio monitors at best and then wonder why it does not sound like their 4x12 halfstack.
> 
> But ultimately the question is "do I like how this feels to play and sounds" and for me that has been a definite yes ever since the Axe-Fx Standard was released. For A/B between the modeled amps, there's a huge ton of overlap in them on the Fractal units, just like the real amps are based on something like a dozen different archetype amps that have been then tweaked to make a new amp. I own a Bogner instead of a Marshall mostly due to the feature set difference but with modeled amps that's not relevant.


Exactly. Did the same and ended up with 5153 and torpedo captor. Covers everything I need in terms of dirty sounds.


----------



## budda

Cygnus beta FW for FM3 is live I think, or will be soon.


----------



## Deadpool_25

budda said:


> Cygnus beta FW for FM3 is live I think, or will be soon.



I saw it was up for the AXIII. I don’t see it yet but maybe it’ll be in the next few days. I should probably be more excited than I am. It sounds so good already. The reviews on the fractal site are overwhelmingly positive but I’d expect that there. A few videos have been posted and I do hear a difference.


----------



## MatrixClaw

Is there a post somewhere that overviews what's included with Cygnus besides just the amp models that were updated, or is that it?


----------



## Deadpool_25

MatrixClaw said:


> Is there a post somewhere that overviews what's included with Cygnus besides just the amp models that were updated, or is that it?



From Cliff (not sure if it’s okay to link to other forums):

“General notes:

1. The power amp bias algorithm is changed and the bias control works differently now. As with a real amp as you turn the bias down the gain also goes down. Typical values for bias are between 0.45 and 0.5 for fixed bias amps and 1.0 for cathode biased.

2. Dynamic Presence and Dynamic Depth have been removed as they are incompatible with the new algorithms.

3. On the Dynamics tab there is now a "Master Bias Ex." parameter. This scales ALL the bias excursion parameters. The default value for the various bias excursions is _usually_ 100% now but there are some amps where a bias excursion may be 0%. Depends on the topology.

4. In general high gain amps should feel tighter and sound more "vocal". All amps should feel quite a bit more dynamic. You may need a compressor to tame things if you're recording (as you would a real amp).

5. There is a lot more variation in feel between models now.

6. The Triaxis models now have an authentic Preamp Presence control that works like the real thing.

7. The Hicut and Presence are now separate parameters. In most cases this is invisible to the user. However for the Komet models you get both, just like the amp.

I will add to this list as I remember things.”


----------



## cardinal

I'm still debating whether to update to the beta or just wait. They didn't update two of the three models I use most and warned that amps not yet updated might not sound right, so I should probably just wait. 

But I'm still running firmware 12.something so maybe I'll update to at least the current fully functioning firmware.


----------



## Deadpool_25

cardinal said:


> I'm still debating whether to update to the beta or just wait. They didn't update two of the three models I use most and warned that amps not yet updated might not sound right, so I should probably just wait.
> 
> But I'm still running firmware 12.something so maybe I'll update to at least the current fully functioning firmware.



I use the Super a lot and that hasn’t been updated yet. With that said, I’d load up the beta anyway as it might make me look into/revisit other clean amps again. Moot point for now though as Cygnus not released for FM3 yet as far as I can tell.


----------



## rokket2005

I was going to wait, but I was sitting around last night with nothing better to do so I updated. It sounds fucking awesome for reals. The main amps that I use are the Recto1 and the Deliverance More, neither of which were on the updated list, and the difference and improvement is marked.


----------



## soul_lip_mike

New "Perform" pages in the firmware beta for FM3.


----------



## budda

cardinal said:


> I'm still debating whether to update to the beta or just wait. They didn't update two of the three models I use most and warned that amps not yet updated might not sound right, so I should probably just wait.
> 
> But I'm still running firmware 12.something so maybe I'll update to at least the current fully functioning firmware.



Oh dude, get 15.01. Its good times.


----------



## broangiel

I'm going to count myself among the "it sounds good, but I can't say it sounds radically different or better" camp. My opinion here may be pretty useless though, as I've not had a ton of time to play lately. I've got a puppy (i.e. major distraction) running around, and while she's fun, she definitely impedes guitar time.

Also, check out the new Sonic Drive model. It's not my cup o' tea, but for anyone who likes the Sonic Distortion, I believe the Sonic Drive is a model of that pedal.


----------



## cardinal

budda said:


> Oh dude, get 15.01. Its good times.



Yeah, I just went to 15.01. Sounds the same to me other than the new models. The Archon model is pretty darn close to the real deal. That was fun.


----------



## cardinal

cardinal said:


> Yeah, I just went to 15.01. Sounds the same to me other than the new models. The Archon model is pretty darn close to the real deal. That was fun.



Ok, so I take this back. My main presets sounded the same (Brit800, Recto1, and JPIIC). 

But some of the other sims are significantly different. The Plexi 2204 sim is basically fixed. The 5150III sims immediately sound awesome, whereas before I quickly skipped over them as "meh." And Recto2 Red Modern now sounds right and very nice (before I just had no luck at all with it). 

So 15.1 was a step up from 12.whatever, particularly if you were hellbent on using certain models. 

Probably will still wait for Cygnus to have the kinks ironed out


----------



## RevDrucifer

cardinal said:


> Somehow I'd missed the JP IIC+ sims. Those sound like a Mark with the Treble Shift pulled (which supposed is how the actual amp is hardwired). Sounds killer.



Petrucci sent Cliff one of his personal JPCII+’s to model, which is primarily why Cliff couldn’t test the model against the new Cygnus update. 

Speaking of, the update is pretty damn cool. I stayed up until 4am re-dialing in some of my main presets. Cliff’s description of “the amps are more like yoooowwww instead of yeeeeee” makes total sense.


----------



## Deadpool_25

On a whim at GC, I asked if they had a Headrush 108. They happened to have one so I brought it home.

It has more low end than I anticipated for an 8” speaker. I added some global EQ to tame the low end a bit. It gets quite loud and sounds pretty decent, especially for the price. However, I’m a bit uninspired by the tone coming out of it. I was hoping to like it more—apparently I still don’t really get along with FRFR stuff so it’ll go back tomorrow.

Next up I need to try the FM3 into the Stealth’s loop.


----------



## MatrixClaw

Deadpool_25 said:


> On a whim at GC, I asked if they had a Headrush 108. They happened to have one so I brought it home.
> 
> It has more low end than I anticipated for an 8” speaker. I added some global EQ to tame the low end a bit. It gets quite loud and sounds pretty decent, especially for the price. However, I’m a bit uninspired by the tone coming out of it. I was hoping to like it more—apparently I still don’t really get along with FRFR stuff so it’ll go back tomorrow.
> 
> Next up I need to try the FM3 into the Stealth’s loop.


Yeah I don't like the FM3 through my Alto TS112A at all. Someday I'll get around to selling it. It sounds really good through the PowerCab though, but the stock IRs suck.


----------



## laxu

Deadpool_25 said:


> On a whim at GC, I asked if they had a Headrush 108. They happened to have one so I brought it home.
> 
> It has more low end than I anticipated for an 8” speaker. I added some global EQ to tame the low end a bit. It gets quite loud and sounds pretty decent, especially for the price. However, I’m a bit uninspired by the tone coming out of it. I was hoping to like it more—apparently I still don’t really get along with FRFR stuff so it’ll go back tomorrow.
> 
> Next up I need to try the FM3 into the Stealth’s loop.



The quality of the output unit will always matter and so does how loud you run it. It will always be different from real guitar cabs but personally I really enjoyed the tones I got from the Atomic FR I used to have. It was a 50W tube poweramp into a 1x12 full range speaker and tweeter. Bit of an unusual combination nowadays for sure when pretty much all of the units on the market are solid-state. Maybe because it was built more like a guitar speaker cab also helped its tone. I sold it some years back and now just use my Genelec M040 studio monitors which sound great and get more than loud enough for home use.


----------



## soul_lip_mike

Deadpool_25 said:


> On a whim at GC, I asked if they had a Headrush 108. They happened to have one so I brought it home.
> 
> It has more low end than I anticipated for an 8” speaker. I added some global EQ to tame the low end a bit. It gets quite loud and sounds pretty decent, especially for the price. However, I’m a bit uninspired by the tone coming out of it. I was hoping to like it more—apparently I still don’t really get along with FRFR stuff so it’ll go back tomorrow.
> 
> Next up I need to try the FM3 into the Stealth’s loop.



Did you leave it on the floor? I found the low end problem improved a lot when I put the FR108's on some stands off the floor.


----------



## Deadpool_25

soul_lip_mike said:


> Did you leave it on the floor? I found the low end problem improved a lot when I put the FR108's on some stands off the floor.



Yes it was on the floor. I wouldn’t say the low end was really too much of a problem. Some very basic and easy EQ took care of it well enough. I’m considering whether I want to keep it. It was pretty inexpensive and is so light it would be a cool solution for a grab and go rig to jam with friends; it’s definitely good enough that I’d be fine with it for that application.


----------



## Deadpool_25

laxu said:


> The quality of the output unit will always matter and so does how loud you run it. It will always be different from real guitar cabs but personally I really enjoyed the tones I got from the Atomic FR I used to have. It was a 50W tube poweramp into a 1x12 full range speaker and tweeter. Bit of an unusual combination nowadays for sure when pretty much all of the units on the market are solid-state. Maybe because it was built more like a guitar speaker cab also helped its tone. I sold it some years back and now just use my Genelec M040 studio monitors which sound great and get more than loud enough for home use.



Yeah I use Yamaha HS7s which sound great to my ears and do get loud enough. If I want to get really loud I can just throw the FM3 in the loop of a real amp.


----------



## Deadpool_25

I was messing with 4CM today and was sitting on the floor in front of my cab. Things seemed pretty ice-pick bright (as they will when sitting on the floor in front of your cab). I just shifted off to the side a little and was more comfortable. 

That reminded me that with FRFR solutions you often can’t do that because they’re more omni-directional. It made me think that might’ve been one of my issues with the 108 and the other FRFR solutions I’ve used. I think a lot of folks just use a “standard” high and low cut a lot of times and I really haven’t tried that. I may fire the 108 back up tomorrow and give it a shot.


----------



## cardinal

I'm totally into the Fractal thing but have not yet jumped down the IR and FRFR rabbit hole. Still running through normal cabs.

Like you say, just shifting a bit around the cab changes the tone. I worry about endlessly searching through subtly different IRs and all these different FRFR solutions... And I'm not sure any of the FRFRs are really meant for bass guitar frequencies unless you use PA speakers with a subwoofer?


----------



## Deadpool_25

cardinal said:


> I'm totally into the Fractal thing but have not yet jumped down the IR and FRFR rabbit hole. Still running through normal cabs.
> 
> Like you say, just shifting a bit around the cab changes the tone. I worry about endlessly searching through subtly different IRs and all these different FRFR solutions... And I'm not sure any of the FRFRs are really meant for bass guitar frequencies unless you use PA speakers with a subwoofer?



I bought some IRs a while back and haven’t really even messed with them. There are so many stock IRs and I haven’t really had a hard time finding tones I like. I don’t feel the need to go exploring down that rabbit hole...thankfully.

The FRFR would “probably” be pretty decent with bass tones. They’re “full range” so theoretically should be at least as well suited for bass as a guitar cab, if not more so. Don’t worry about the size—even 6” studio monitors can reproduce bass tones quite well.


----------



## laxu

cardinal said:


> I'm totally into the Fractal thing but have not yet jumped down the IR and FRFR rabbit hole. Still running through normal cabs.
> 
> Like you say, just shifting a bit around the cab changes the tone. I worry about endlessly searching through subtly different IRs and all these different FRFR solutions... And I'm not sure any of the FRFRs are really meant for bass guitar frequencies unless you use PA speakers with a subwoofer?



There should be some bass cab IRs. I used to use the Axe-Fx 2 for bass and felt it worked just great for that.

With like 1000 IRs in the unit from various vendors I see no reason to install 3rd party ones. Find some favorites and work around those.

Your output devices will matter for bass reproduction. I use a pair of Genelec M040s and those go low enough to work pretty well for bass as long as you are not into some really deep subbass stuff.


----------



## budda

There are bass cab IRs and dr. Bonkers sells bass cab IR packs. Austin Buddy made a preset pack of bass rigs, and there are some on axechange as well.

@Deadpool_25 120hz/7k cuts at 12db/oct up to 24db/oct (toit) - let me know what you think.


----------



## cardinal

Had lost my 1/4" adapter for my old ATH-M50 headphones but just got a replacement.

So tried the IRs thanks to you guy's encouragement. Pretty good! I've been using an Uberkab, so I found some IRs of an Uberkab, one of the T75 and one of the V30. Dialed in a 120/9000 low/high cut. Sounds fine. Very different from when I had an AFXII. Not sure if it's user error or if tech had just gotten better.

Lots of the IRs were kinda ewww sounding to me, but just skip over them.

I'll give it a whirl with my SVT/bass preset. But maybe at least a small FRFR thing is in my future.

But I'm super pumped that it took all of about 2 minutes to dial up some IRs that sounded fine.


----------



## Possessed

Anyone knows the return policy from G66?


----------



## budda

Possessed said:


> Anyone knows the return policy from G66?



Should be on their site.


----------



## Possessed

budda said:


> Should be on their site.


I have checked and found absolute nothing about return.
I will write them a Email.


----------



## Possessed

Ok found it. It is in shop section. Ok then I will pay the item to see whether I like it or not.


----------



## Deadpool_25

budda said:


> @Deadpool_25 120hz/7k cuts at 12db/oct up to 24db/oct (toit) - let me know what you think.



Better but I just don’t like the FRFR stuff. It’s either gonna be the real cab or the monitors for me. 108 going back today.


----------



## budda

Deadpool_25 said:


> Better but I just don’t like the FRFR stuff. It’s either gonna be the real cab or the monitors for me. 108 going back today.



Are monitors not frfr?


----------



## Deadpool_25

budda said:


> Are monitors not frfr?



Lol. I knew you’d say that. I actually alluded to that in a previous post. Monitors seem different though. I never really compare my monitors to my real cab, but I do with the larger FRFR solutions. Like I’m asking them to get as loud and feel as powerful as my real cab. Maybe they occupy a space between monitors and real cabs that I just don’t need to fill.


----------



## budda

Deadpool_25 said:


> Lol. I knew you’d say that. I actually alluded to that in a previous post. Monitors seem different though. I never really compare my monitors to my real cab, but I do with the larger FRFR solutions. Like I’m asking them to get as loud and feel as powerful as my real cab. Maybe they occupy a space between monitors and real cabs that I just don’t need to fill.



I had a day, I genuinely couldn't remember .

I'm wondering how much of it is psychosomatic in that monitors are generally way smaller so the same volume would be considered "impressive" if that makes sense? That and monitors are much more likely to be aimed at your head, and have the stereo spread to their advantage.

I'm guessing the last line is it though.


----------



## Deadpool_25

budda said:


> I had a day, I genuinely couldn't remember .
> 
> I'm wondering how much of it is psychosomatic in that monitors are generally way smaller so the same volume would be considered "impressive" if that makes sense? That and monitors are much more likely to be aimed at your head, and have the stereo spread to their advantage.
> 
> I'm guessing the last line is it though.



Yeah I never expect my monitors to get that loud. The 108 and other FRFR systems I’ve tried, I inevitably compare to a real cab setup.

The Monitors sound significantly better at lower to medium volume and the cab sounds better at all volumes lol. The only benefit I see to the FRFR is weight (and cost I guess but I already own the cab so it’s a non-factor for me) but since I’m not traveling around to play with friends or anything the portability is kinda worthless for me.


----------



## budda

Crank the monitors for kicks some time.


----------



## Deadpool_25

budda said:


> Crank the monitors for kicks some time.



Oh I have. It’s pretty awesome lol.


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

Possessed said:


> Anyone knows the return policy from G66?



the folks at G66 are awesome. I’ve bought an AX8 (returned) and an AF3 (owned for 2Y then sold). 

it’s been a while since I’ve been on this thread sharing my experience about how awesome the AF3 was but I decided to sell mine and for back to amps.......


Until I ordered another AF3 from g66. 
@Deadpool_25 - you are not alone with your gas problem


----------



## AboutBlank

Possessed said:


> Ok found it. It is in shop section. Ok then I will pay the item to see whether I like it or not.



You say that as if it is somehow unusual for online purchases.

The Distance Selling Act (Fernabsatzgesetz) is quite established, isn't it?


----------



## cardinal

Starting to actively enjoy some of the direct/headphone sounds out of this thing. There are some room IRs of a 1960ax with V30s, and those room IRs blended with some other V30 IRs (either from that 1960ax or the Mesa OS ones) sound amazing to me. Not just "passable" but actively good... And credit to where credit is due, a Leon Todd video on the cab block was very useful about how to use multiple IRs together and using a phasing trick. Little box is a lot of fun.


----------



## Possessed

AboutBlank said:


> You say that as if it is somehow unusual for online purchases.
> 
> The Distance Selling Act (Fernabsatzgesetz) is quite established, isn't it?


Yeah, i just want to make sure it can be returned like e.g. Thomann


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

cardinal said:


> Starting to actively enjoy some of the direct/headphone sounds out of this thing. There are some room IRs of a 1960ax with V30s, and those room IRs blended with some other V30 IRs (either from that 1960ax or the Mesa OS ones) sound amazing to me. Not just "passable" but actively good... And credit to where credit is due, a Leon Todd video on the cab block was very useful about how to use multiple IRs together and using a phasing trick. Little box is a lot of fun.



Leon Todd should be on commission. It was his videos that got me to try fractal with an Ax8 then AF3 a couple of years ago - I will checkout his cab video when my mk2 turns up next week. Love what you can do in both the cab block and power amp section (especially when using an external power amp and cab)


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

Possessed said:


> Yeah, i just want to make sure it can be returned like e.g. Thomann



Dude - I have bought and returned with them, their service is excellent. They are an absolute pleasure - seriously they make everything hassle free.

I've just ordered a mk2 from them and live in the UK. They've explained how it works post Brexshit and I couldn't be happier with them. 

If you're still worried, drop them an email, they are very responsive.


----------



## Possessed

Put the trigger!!! Now let's see whether I like it or not. I haven't had any modeler for more than 15 years.


----------



## cardinal

One interesting side effect of playing with the IRs is that it has been exposing how forgiving a real cab can be. 

I've had a few presets that I thought were sounding great through a cab but with the IRs, they were too fat and bloated sounding. Turns out the IRS were fine, but it'd set up the amp block poorly. 

So it made me go back and redo the amp block settings or just choose a different model, and then I got something that sounds fine through both the cab and the IRs. But interesting process to get there, I guess.


----------



## Deadpool_25

cardinal said:


> One interesting side effect of playing with the IRs is that it has been exposing how forgiving a real cab can be.
> 
> I've had a few presets that I thought were sounding great through a cab but with the IRs, they were too fat and bloated sounding. Turns out the IRS were fine, but it'd set up the amp block poorly.
> 
> So it made me go back and redo the amp block settings or just choose a different model, and then I got something that sounds fine through both the cab and the IRs. But interesting process to get there, I guess.



Interesting. What real cab are you using and what are you using to power it? And then how are you comparing the IRs to that? Are we talking cab in the room vs the IR through monitors or are you miking up your real cab?


----------



## cardinal

Deadpool_25 said:


> Interesting. What real cab are you using and what are you using to power it? And then how are you comparing the IRs to that? Are we talking cab in the room vs the IR through monitors or are you miking up your real cab?



Im using a Bogner Uberkab with a Crest CA-9. Pretty much everything sounds great into that cab IMHO.

For IRs, I'm just using headphones (ATH-50 or some similar combination of letters/numbers).

For the cab, I'm just listening in the room, which I think is why it's so forgiving. It just sounds great, but I also can move around and such, so I probably am unconsciously gravitating to certain spots. The IR doesn't let you do that, of course, so you can't hide something kinda gnarly sounding by just standing somewhere else.

I'm using the jumped JTM 45 for clean-ish tones, and thought I had a great setting, but it sounded horrible with the IRs. I redid the balance of the treble and normal channels, and that sounded fine with the IRs and honestly sounded better through the cab, too.

I've been struggling with the JP2C sims because they just awesome with the cab but just too thicc with the IRs, so I went back to the C+ model and got it worked out to sound fine with both the IRs and the cabs. Through the cab, it's not as macho sounding as the JP2C sims, but it is clearer and faster.


----------



## Deadpool_25

cardinal said:


> Im using a Bogner Uberkab with a Crest CA-9. Pretty much everything sounds great into that cab IMHO.
> 
> For IRs, I'm just using headphones (ATH-50 or some similar combination of letters/numbers).
> 
> For the cab, I'm just listening in the room, which I think is why it's so forgiving. It just sounds great, but I also can move around and such, so I probably am unconsciously gravitating to certain spots. The IR doesn't let you do that, of course, so you can't hide something kinda gnarly sounding by just standing somewhere else.
> 
> I'm using the jumped JTM 45 for clean-ish tones, and thought I had a great setting, but it sounded horrible with the IRs. I redid the balance of the treble and normal channels, and that sounded fine with the IRs and honestly sounded better through the cab, too.
> 
> I've been struggling with the JP2C sims because they just awesome with the cab but just too thicc with the IRs, so I went back to the C+ model and got it worked out to sound fine with both the IRs and the cabs. Through the cab, it's not as macho sounding as the JP2C sims, but it is clearer and faster.



Ah. Man, I haven’t been able to get any sounds I really like with headphones (Sennheiser HD280 pros) without dialing back quite a bit of highs. I’m fine with that though because I kinda hate playing through headphones anyway lol.


----------



## cardinal

Deadpool_25 said:


> Ah. Man, I haven’t been able to get any sounds I really like with headphones (Sennheiser HD280 pros) without dialing back quite a bit of highs. I’m fine with that though because I kinda hate playing through headphones anyway lol.



I use the cab block for a high cut to 9000k or so and mix in some room IRs to give some space to the sound, which dulls some of the zing. 

I broke down and bought some Celestion IRs last night. Wanted some for the G12-65. OMG. I so much preferred the Celestion IRs that they made the factory IRs unbearable sounding, so I had a get a few more.


----------



## budda

cardinal said:


> I use the cab block for a high cut to 9000k or so and mix in some room IRs to give some space to the sound, which dulls some of the zing.
> 
> I broke down and bought some Celestion IRs last night. Wanted some for the G12-65. OMG. I so much preferred the Celestion IRs that they made the factory IRs unbearable sounding, so I had a get a few more.



Skip the room IRs and add reverb, dime the stereo spread.


----------



## Deadpool_25

cardinal said:


> I use the cab block for a high cut to 9000k or so and mix in some room IRs to give some space to the sound, which dulls some of the zing.
> 
> I broke down and bought some Celestion IRs last night. Wanted some for the G12-65. OMG. I so much preferred the Celestion IRs that they made the factory IRs unbearable sounding, so I had a get a few more.



Nice. I’d heard Celestion did their own IRs but forgot. I might have to check a few of those out at some point. I’d probably want to try the G-12H 75 and the lynchback. Maybe the V30 just for the sake of comparison.


----------



## cardinal

Deadpool_25 said:


> Nice. I’d heard Celestion did their own IRs but forgot. I might have to check a few of those out at some point. I’d probably want to try the G-12H 75 and the lynchback. Maybe the V30 just for the sake of comparison.



I ended up with the Blues, G12-65, T75, G12M, G12H, and V30. They all sound pretty good, though I don't like the real H30 and have no idea why I thought I'd like an IR of it (I don't). But lots of people do like that speaker.


----------



## budda

Deadpool_25 said:


> Nice. I’d heard Celestion did their own IRs but forgot. I might have to check a few of those out at some point. I’d probably want to try the G-12H 75 and the lynchback. Maybe the V30 just for the sake of comparison.



Have you tried the stock ones for those? I keep forgetting about the lynchback but iirc its in there.


----------



## Deadpool_25

budda said:


> Have you tried the stock ones for those? I keep forgetting about the lynchback but iirc its in there.


I have not. I’ll have to dig around in there. I have a couple IR packs. OH Heavy Hitters and a couple others iirc. I’ve basically been in “good enough” mode so I haven’t even bothered to load the ones I have as far as I can remember lol


----------



## cardinal

Ahhhh ok, so the Axe's Fat switch for the Mark models is the Treble Pull Shift. Now it all makes sense. Sounds great.

And I think the default bright cap values for the Recto1 and the SLO are off? The amp schematics show 1000pf but the Axe default is 250pf and 500pf, respectively, for some reason. Upping the values to 1000pf brings those sims back to the angry sizzle (fizz?) that I've been trying to get.


----------



## Deadpool_25

cardinal said:


> Ahhhh ok, so the Axe's Fat switch for the Mark models is the Treble Pull Shift. Now it all makes sense. Sounds great.
> 
> And I think the default bright cap values for the Recto1 and the SLO are off? The amp schematics show 1000pf but the Axe default is 250pf and 500pf, respectively, for some reason. Upping the values to 1000pf brings those sims back to the angry sizzle (fizz?) that I've been trying to get.




I found this interesting so I asked Cliff about it. His reply:

_“The bright caps are normalized to the volume control value. So if a bright cap is 1000pF but the volume control is 250K (as is the case in a Recto) the normalized value will be 250pF._

_Likewise the bright cap in an SLO100 is 1000pF but the volume pot is 500K so the normalized value is 500pF.

IOW the values are correct._

_BTW, this was done for consistency as a 1nF bright cap on a 500K pot behaves the same as a 500pF cap on a 1M pot.

If the tone isn't "angry" enough that usually means the MV is too high. Just back it off a touch until the high end opens up.“
_
I wonder if this is saying changing the bright cap value changes the volume pot value (can you change the volume pot value separately in the axe/FM3? I’ll have to look).


----------



## technomancer

I grabbed a Headrush 108 for low (tv) volume living room playing and it seems to be working out decently so far. It is really sensitive to volume levels between the cab and the input signal and gets really bassy really fast if it doesn't like the volume balance though.

The GAS for something like an Atomic CLR is strong, but for what I'm using it for I think the Headrush is going to be ideal: cheap and light and sounds decent at the volumes I am using.



Deadpool_25 said:


> I found this interesting so I asked Cliff about it. His reply:
> 
> _“The bright caps are normalized to the volume control value. So if a bright cap is 1000pF but the volume control is 250K (as is the case in a Recto) the normalized value will be 250pF._
> 
> _Likewise the bright cap in an SLO100 is 1000pF but the volume pot is 500K so the normalized value is 500pF.
> 
> IOW the values are correct._
> 
> _BTW, this was done for consistency as a 1nF bright cap on a 500K pot behaves the same as a 500pF cap on a 1M pot.
> 
> If the tone isn't "angry" enough that usually means the MV is too high. Just back it off a touch until the high end opens up.“
> _
> I wonder if this is saying changing the bright cap value changes the volume pot value (can you change the volume pot value separately in the axe/FM3? I’ll have to look).



Sounds like he just modeled a 1M volume pot and adjusted the other components appropriately.


----------



## budda

@technomancer if the hr isnt cutting it later, grab a used 110 yamaha or mackie wedge and enjoy.


----------



## technomancer

budda said:


> @technomancer if the hr isnt cutting it later, grab a used 110 yamaha or mackie wedge and enjoy.



If I decide to go all in I'll probably grab an Atomic CLR


----------



## laxu

technomancer said:


> I grabbed a Headrush 108 for low (tv) volume living room playing and it seems to be working out decently so far. It is really sensitive to volume levels between the cab and the input signal and gets really bassy really fast if it doesn't like the volume balance though.
> 
> The GAS for something like an Atomic CLR is strong, but for what I'm using it for I think the Headrush is going to be ideal: cheap and light and sounds decent at the volumes I am using.



Those seem like a pretty common complaint about the Headrush and that's where global EQs can be a useful tool as well as any output level pads so the volume controls work in a more practical manner.


----------



## cardinal

Deadpool_25 said:


> I found this interesting so I asked Cliff about it. His reply:
> 
> _“The bright caps are normalized to the volume control value. So if a bright cap is 1000pF but the volume control is 250K (as is the case in a Recto) the normalized value will be 250pF._
> 
> _Likewise the bright cap in an SLO100 is 1000pF but the volume pot is 500K so the normalized value is 500pF.
> 
> IOW the values are correct._
> 
> _BTW, this was done for consistency as a 1nF bright cap on a 500K pot behaves the same as a 500pF cap on a 1M pot.
> 
> If the tone isn't "angry" enough that usually means the MV is too high. Just back it off a touch until the high end opens up.“
> _
> I wonder if this is saying changing the bright cap value changes the volume pot value (can you change the volume pot value separately in the axe/FM3? I’ll have to look).



But arent the Recto gain pots 1M? (Edit, apparently no, as the schematics say 1M but it seems the reports are that they actually are 250k. Wish I hadn't sold that Rev C so I could measure stuff like this). 

I run the master around 1.5.


----------



## cardinal

But I guess Fractal is saying that all of their models are done with a 1M value for the gain pot? Kinda weird?


----------



## Mourguitars

Might be a stupid question to ask....never done this 

Can i run my ...say, Archon thru the Rivera Rockcrusher then into the FM3 for IR cab sim maybe Eq and delay into my Adan 7's and sub ?

I was looking at that Shur Reactive load....the FM3 is loaded with all my library of IR's ill have a better choice ect

Mike


----------



## budda

Mourguitars said:


> Might be a stupid question to ask....never done this
> 
> Can i run my ...say, Archon thru the Rivera Rockcrusher then into the FM3 for IR cab sim maybe Eq and delay into my Adan 7's and sub ?
> 
> I was looking at that Shur Reactive load....the FM3 is loaded with all my library of IR's ill have a better choice ect
> 
> Mike



If the FM3 doesnt have the archon yet, i think it will soon. I'd just use that but ymmv.


----------



## Mourguitars

Budda...i want to run a tube head thru my monitors with IR's..i just used the Archon as a example i have a few heads...like people do on Youtube, recording ect....

Or if i have to buy a Reactive load from Shur to do that.....i got the Rivera Rockcrusher for a great deal, just never used it yet.....i just want to hook up and see and hear how the heads sounds with different speakers and mic's...

Do something different...since i have it

Mike


----------



## Deadpool_25

Mourguitars said:


> Might be a stupid question to ask....never done this
> 
> Can i run my ...say, Archon thru the Rivera Rockcrusher then into the FM3 for IR cab sim maybe Eq and delay into my Adan 7's and sub ?
> 
> I was looking at that Shur Reactive load....the FM3 is loaded with all my library of IR's ill have a better choice ect
> 
> Mike



Never mind @budda. That guy is hellbent on converting everyone to full digital 

Yeah the Rock Crusher has a line out so you can do what you’re talking about.


----------



## cardinal

So I ended up with a second unit because... reasons (?). 

Anyway I upgraded one to Cygnus and the other is at Ares 15.1. I'll keep working with Cygnus for a bit, but I preferred Ares by a mile. Granted, I've had a few weeks to work out the kinks with Ares stuff. 

Cygnus extends deeper and higher, and seems stringier in the middle. Seems like I was adjusting the master and gain higher in Cygnus to try to get it to compress more. The big complaint I have with Ares is that it overdrives too quickly with the master volume, but Cygnus maybe goes too far the other way and just won't warm up with higher master volume settings. Cygnus is SUPER dynamic. IMHO more so than the actual amps. 

It's been nearly 10 years maybe, but playing Cygnus for about an hour reminded me of when I first got an AFXII (and didn't like it). 

I'll keep trying for a bit, but thankfully I backed up the Ares stuff.


----------



## Mourguitars

Deadpool_25 said:


> Never mind @budda. That guy is hellbent on converting everyone to full digital
> 
> Yeah the Rock Crusher has a line out so you can do what you’re talking about.[/QUOTE
> 
> Thanks for the answer Deadpool.....hope i dont fry anything !


----------



## budda

@cardinal also remember not all the amps are updated yet.


----------



## cardinal

budda said:


> @cardinal also remember not all the amps are updated yet.



I was really struggling with Brit 800. I couldnt get it to compress and thicken up. Turning up the master just made it boomy. Probably user error somewhere but after an hour more I gave up and flashed it back to Ares.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Mourguitars said:


> hope i don’t fry anything !



So you’re wanting to run your amp with IRs from the FM3, right? Are you also wanting to use effects from the FM3?

One thing to keep in mind is that the output of the rock crusher looks to be line level. You may need to set the FM3’s input (whichever you use) to line level instead of instrument level. Pretty sure that’s in there.


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

I used to do this with the Boss Waza TAE output into the AF3 then just treat it as you would an amp block. Effects before and after and a cab block to load IRs etc


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

technomancer said:


> I grabbed a Headrush 108 for low (tv) volume living room playing and it seems to be working out decently so far. It is really sensitive to volume levels between the cab and the input signal and gets really bassy really fast if it doesn't like the volume balance though.
> 
> The GAS for something like an Atomic CLR is strong, but for what I'm using it for I think the Headrush is going to be ideal: cheap and light and sounds decent at the volumes I am using.
> .



How's this working out for you?

I used a pair of A7x monitors and often missed the feel of a cab so ended up using a power amp and real cab. Do these large FRFR CLR type speakers work well in a home setting?


----------



## laxu

Mourguitars said:


> Might be a stupid question to ask....never done this
> 
> Can i run my ...say, Archon thru the Rivera Rockcrusher then into the FM3 for IR cab sim maybe Eq and delay into my Adan 7's and sub ?
> 
> I was looking at that Shur Reactive load....the FM3 is loaded with all my library of IR's ill have a better choice ect
> 
> Mike



Yes you could but it's an expensive overkill setup. If the FM3 does not have an Archon model yet, it should get one eventually as it is afaik available on the Axe-Fx 3.

I've played quite a bit with some of the similar amp models on my Helix and you can do a lot just throwing a graphic or parametric EQ after a lot of similar amp models.


----------



## laxu

The Thing Upstairs said:


> How's this working out for you?
> 
> I used a pair of A7x monitors and often missed the feel of a cab so ended up using a power amp and real cab. Do these large FRFR CLR type speakers work well in a home setting?



I actually sold the Atomic FR (predecessor to the CLR, the FR has a 50W neutral tube poweramp + fullrange speaker + tweeter) I had because at home volumes my large Genelec M040 studio monitors could deliver the same sounds but in stereo. Their volume just drops off a cliff if you move further away whereas the Atomic FR would keep filling the room. But sit in the sweet spot and they get plenty loud.

A couple of things to consider when using studio monitors:

How loud you play them still matters. Louder is better, appropriate for the room of course. Often the minimum volume from guitar amps and speakers is louder than what you might use with nearfield monitors.
Position of your studio monitors is at ear level whereas you are listening to guitar cabs with your knees which have notoriously bad hearing. Guitar cabs are also very directional so those highs disperse if you stand off axis.
The frequency response of studio monitors depending on their size can extend below guitar speakers as well as far above them. This can make them more easy to sound boomy or harsh.
So to compensate for #2 and #3, use the low and high cuts in the cab block. Typical settings would be something like a low cut between 60-100 Hz and high cut in the 7-10 KHz range depending on the slope of the filters. Especially the high cut can make the cab sims sound a bit more like listening to a guitar speaker. Note that this is mainly useful when you are playing by yourself, you want that extra high end content to cut through in a mix better.


----------



## budda

cardinal said:


> I was really struggling with Brit 800. I couldnt get it to compress and thicken up. Turning up the master just made it boomy. Probably user error somewhere but after an hour more I gave up and flashed it back to Ares.



Jcm800's dont really compress or get thick without a drive pedal though.


----------



## cardinal

budda said:


> Jcm800's dont really compress or get thick without a drive pedal though.



yes I was using a virtual drive pedal (an actual 2204 has been my main amp for years and years). Despite having more bass, the Cygnus amps seemed to have a thin, stringy sound that I couldn't get rid of. Ares sims do a similar thing if the master is too low but I couldn't make it go away with Cygnus. I'm happy to admit it is user error somehow, but I just gave up. 

Cygnus sims did have a very cool, slinky feel. Ares seems to feel stiff as a board in comparison.


----------



## cardinal

Deadpool_25 said:


> I found this interesting so I asked Cliff about it. His reply:
> 
> _“The bright caps are normalized to the volume control value. So if a bright cap is 1000pF but the volume control is 250K (as is the case in a Recto) the normalized value will be 250pF._
> 
> _Likewise the bright cap in an SLO100 is 1000pF but the volume pot is 500K so the normalized value is 500pF.
> 
> IOW the values are correct._
> 
> _BTW, this was done for consistency as a 1nF bright cap on a 500K pot behaves the same as a 500pF cap on a 1M pot.
> 
> If the tone isn't "angry" enough that usually means the MV is too high. Just back it off a touch until the high end opens up.“
> _
> I wonder if this is saying changing the bright cap value changes the volume pot value (can you change the volume pot value separately in the axe/FM3? I’ll have to look).



And wouldnt this also be weird if you like to bypass the bright cap? It sounds like he's saying that irrespective of the amp, the sims all use the same value virtual gain pot (1M?). Just seems like a weird way to do things.


----------



## technomancer

The Thing Upstairs said:


> How's this working out for you?
> 
> I used a pair of A7x monitors and often missed the feel of a cab so ended up using a power amp and real cab. Do these large FRFR CLR type speakers work well in a home setting?



In the limited play time between yesterday and today the Headrush is still doing ok 

I haven't actually owned a CLR, just heard good things about them. Given at this point I'm only likely to be using the FRFR every couple months I'll probably just stick with the 108. Next up is getting the cabling to use 4 cable method with my amps.


----------



## Millul

Can we start a "Laxu's pearls of sonic wisdom" thread, please?
Always super useful posts, especially for someone like me who's really new to setting up home/digital rigs.


----------



## Mourguitars

Deadpool_25 said:


> So you’re wanting to run your amp with IRs from the FM3, right? Are you also wanting to use effects from the FM3?
> 
> One thing to keep in mind is that the output of the rock crusher looks to be line level. You may need to set the FM3’s input (whichever you use) to line level instead of instrument level. Pretty sure that’s in there.



Ok thanks....The real Archon has a awful loop , i mean it works ok . The Guy i got it from played low-med gain and had the delay going into the front of the amp.

Last year was so busy work wise , i inherited a lot of gear...just been sitting here looking at it all saying ..Hmmm how would this sound with that ? 

Just have a lot of stuff....im never bored trying things ...but the downside is you just play your stock riffs and licks but you do stumble on some great tones that inspire ya 

When i had my AX8 i tried every IR i had...tweaked amps and so on ...with the FM3 i knew right where to go and dial stuff in so it wasn't in vain...learning curve !

Mike


----------



## Mourguitars

laxu said:


> I actually sold the Atomic FR (predecessor to the CLR, the FR has a 50W neutral tube poweramp + fullrange speaker + tweeter) I had because at home volumes my large Genelec M040 studio monitors could deliver the same sounds but in stereo. Their volume just drops off a cliff if you move further away whereas the Atomic FR would keep filling the room. But sit in the sweet spot and they get plenty loud.
> 
> A couple of things to consider when using studio monitors:
> 
> How loud you play them still matters. Louder is better, appropriate for the room of course. Often the minimum volume from guitar amps and speakers is louder than what you might use with nearfield monitors.
> Position of your studio monitors is at ear level whereas you are listening to guitar cabs with your knees which have notoriously bad hearing. Guitar cabs are also very directional so those highs disperse if you stand off axis.
> The frequency response of studio monitors depending on their size can extend below guitar speakers as well as far above them. This can make them more easy to sound boomy or harsh.
> So to compensate for #2 and #3, use the low and high cuts in the cab block. Typical settings would be something like a low cut between 60-100 Hz and high cut in the 7-10 KHz range depending on the slope of the filters. Especially the high cut can make the cab sims sound a bit more like listening to a guitar speaker. Note that this is mainly useful when you are playing by yourself, you want that extra high end content to cut through in a mix better.



Thats great advise !

The Ribbons on the Adams seem to tame the hight end and dont give me ear fatigue at all like on my Bx8s did..they were to big for the room my guess but the Adams are great...i like them

Mike


----------



## cardinal

Ok ok Cygnus sounds fine. Couldn't stay away. 

After redoing the gain, master, and presence settings, it sounds fine. The TMB settings seemed to be fine from Ares to Cygnus, but I seemed to need to raise the gain and master while lowering the presence.


----------



## budda

The forum says to reset the amp parameters iirc.


----------



## cardinal

budda said:


> The forum says to reset the amp parameters iirc.



yeah, I had done that after my initial disappointment. Getting the compression I wanted was just a matter of turning up the gain, which is fine since there's not nearly as much overdrive coming from higher master volume settings IMHO.


----------



## budda

cardinal said:


> yeah, I had done that after my initial disappointment. Getting the compression I wanted was just a matter of turning up the gain, which is fine since there's not nearly as much overdrive coming from higher master volume settings IMHO.



I look forward to checking out the official release/beta if i track bass soon enough .


----------



## AK66

Strongly considering this unit run through the power amp section of my stealth just to see if I can get a little more modern death metal tone.


----------



## Possessed

Got the unit. Unfortunately still waiting for my headrush frfr amp to be delivered. But I am already very satisfied with the sound through headphone


----------



## sakeido

cardinal said:


> Ok ok Cygnus sounds fine. Couldn't stay away.
> 
> After redoing the gain, master, and presence settings, it sounds fine. The TMB settings seemed to be fine from Ares to Cygnus, but I seemed to need to raise the gain and master while lowering the presence.



yo wait what Cygnus is already out?


----------



## Deadpool_25

sakeido said:


> yo wait what Cygnus is already out?



Beta. For Axe FX III. Cygnus isn’t available for FM3 yet.


----------



## sakeido

Deadpool_25 said:


> Beta. For Axe FX III. Cygnus isn’t available for FM3 yet.



yeah thought so. I was just on the forum yesterday and didn't see anything.. thought I missed something


----------



## cardinal

IMHO you don't need to be on pins and needles waiting for Cygnus for the FM3. Cygnus sounds good. Ares sounds good. It's all good.


----------



## Deadpool_25

cardinal said:


> IMHO you don't need to be on pins and needles waiting for Cygnus for the FM3. Cygnus sounds good. Ares sounds good. It's all good.



Yeah I’m not really too excited. Ares is awesome. If they never updated it I wouldn’t have been upset. I just want them to keep adding effects and amps now.


----------



## Metropolis

Should I sell my Helix LT and get a new FM3 or used AX8 instead? I'm not too inspired how it sounds, fiddled around with it few months already. REVV models are best in high gain department, but Helix still lacks in feel compared to Neural DSP plugins I've got. Of course you can get good tones out of Helix... but meh. There is just something about brickwall feel it has, among how lows and highs sound across every amp model. It's a signature thing you can't dial out.


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

OK, I'm a bit behind in fractal land - is Cygnus replacing ares? Is this for all products or just FM3?

Just rejoined the fam - AF3 turned up. Currently running through my Waza TAE into my Zilla 212 and it sounds immense. Loving it. 
Also bought some IRs (Bogren) to go with OH, redwirez etc that I already own and have had some good sounds there so lots to explore.

I'd forgotten what a truly amazing and creative platform this it is.


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

Metropolis said:


> Should I sell my Helix LT and get a new FM3 or used AX8 instead? I'm not too inspired how it sounds, fiddled around with it few months already. REVV models are best in high gain department, but Helix still lacks in feel compared to Neural DSP plugins I've got. Of course you can get good tones out of Helix... but meh. There is just something about brickwall feel it has, among how lows and highs sound across every amp model. It's a signature thing you can't dial out.



Depends.

I bought an AX8 (before the FM3 was released) and returned it for the AF3 (I was that impressed). FM3 or AF3 would be a good move - unless you want simple and cheaper and then I'd go AX8.


----------



## budda

Metropolis said:


> Should I sell my Helix LT and get a new FM3 or used AX8 instead? I'm not too inspired how it sounds, fiddled around with it few months already. REVV models are best in high gain department, but Helix still lacks in feel compared to Neural DSP plugins I've got. Of course you can get good tones out of Helix... but meh. There is just something about brickwall feel it has, among how lows and highs sound across every amp model. It's a signature thing you can't dial out.



Fm3.


----------



## Metropolis

The Thing Upstairs said:


> Depends.
> 
> I bought an AX8 (before the FM3 was released) and returned it for the AF3 (I was that impressed). FM3 or AF3 would be a good move - unless you want simple and cheaper and then I'd go AX8.





budda said:


> Fm3.



Will cost few hundred more, but it's more recent platform and sounds better from what I've heard.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Metropolis said:


> Should I sell my Helix LT and get a new FM3 or used AX8 instead? I'm not too inspired how it sounds, fiddled around with it few months already. REVV models are best in high gain department, but Helix still lacks in feel compared to Neural DSP plugins I've got. Of course you can get good tones out of Helix... but meh. There is just something about brickwall feel it has, among how lows and highs sound across every amp model. It's a signature thing you can't dial out.



What are you listening to the LT through? I find how you’re monitoring your sound is of extremely high importance. 

With that said...FM3 




The Thing Upstairs said:


> OK, I'm a bit behind in fractal land - is Cygnus replacing ares? Is this for all products or just FM3?
> 
> Just rejoined the fam - AF3 turned up. Currently running through my Waza TAE into my Zilla 212 and it sounds immense. Loving it.
> Also bought some IRs (Bogren) to go with OH, redwirez etc that I already own and have had some good sounds there so lots to explore.
> 
> I'd forgotten what a truly amazing and creative platform this it is.



Cygnus is replacing Ares on AF3 and FM3.

Yeah it sounds great through monitors but I love running through a real cab.


----------



## sakeido

Metropolis said:


> Should I sell my Helix LT and get a new FM3 or used AX8 instead? I'm not too inspired how it sounds, fiddled around with it few months already. REVV models are best in high gain department, but Helix still lacks in feel compared to Neural DSP plugins I've got. Of course you can get good tones out of Helix... but meh. There is just something about brickwall feel it has, among how lows and highs sound across every amp model. It's a signature thing you can't dial out.



FM3 all the way 

I rented a Helix for shows and loved it... mostly cuz I hadn't used a modeler in forever. Absolutely beautiful unit. I'd just sit there staring it when it was on. But it came time to throw down some cash, it took me about six nanoseconds to buy a FM3 unheard instead of the Helix I'd extensively demoed


----------



## Metropolis

Deadpool_25 said:


> What are you listening to the LT through? I find how you’re monitoring your sound is of extremely high importance.
> 
> With that said...FM3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cygnus is replacing Ares on AF3 and FM3.
> 
> Yeah it sounds great through monitors but I love running through a real cab.



Through JBL LSR308 studio monitors and Beyerdynamic DT770 headphones. Mostly ML Sound Lab and Bogren Digital ir's. Same with Neural DSP plugins, which I'm comparing to. It probably reveals more how Helix amps sound, than going into power amp and real cab.


----------



## BurningRome

Have the FM3...I honestly prefer the Neural DSP Fortin Nameless amp sim over any of the amp sims on the FM3...FM3 sounds great, but I'm not keeping it, it couldn't convince me to sell my Red Panda Context v2, Boss OC5, or Jamman stereo delay.

It's cool though. Def fantastic quality. I think I just would prefer an amp in a box since that's all I'm really needing.


----------



## Possessed

Tried fm3 with headrush frfr today. The result is, i just put some of my tube amps for sale.....
Fm3 sounds so good, i don't think I will use my real amps any more!


----------



## soul_lip_mike

Possessed said:


> Tried fm3 with headrush frfr today. The result is, i just put some of my tube amps for sale.....
> Fm3 sounds so good, i don't think I will use my real amps any more!



same same. I got my FM3 in December, didn’t play my invective for 2 months so I sold it.


----------



## Emperoff

Just crazy this thread got 665 replies, so I wanted to have the honour


----------



## sakeido

just got my HypeX amp and the cable I need to hook it up to a guitar cab... it sounded fan fucking tastic in my home theater so I'm expecting big things with the FM3


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

Possessed said:


> Tried fm3 with headrush frfr today. The result is, i just put some of my tube amps for sale.....
> Fm3 sounds so good, i don't think I will use my real amps any more!



I'd hang on if I were you or at least hold back on your favourite amps.

I've bought an AF3, went giddy, sold most of my amps, then went the other way, sold my AF3, bought amps and now I've just bought a mk2 and am loving it. Cant get off the block and badger model combo at the moment. I've even ordered a new FC6 for it.
Will I sell my amps? Not likely - one or two perhaps but I'm not making that mistake again - my tastes change and I enjoy variety


----------



## budda

Versus those of us who sold our amps and dont miss them at all (hi).

Do what you want.


----------



## technomancer

I'd say do what you want, but would recommend a middle ground. Get through the honeymoon phase before selling anything. If you're two months out owning the Axe and aren't using your amps then look at selling them. I've gone through similar with "going minimalist" and selling off stuff because reasons (Kemper, AxeFx, small rig with pedals for various tones, etc etc etc) and have always ended up buying stuff back and owning different things. 

Give it some time, evaluate, and do what you think is best for you. You might be good with just the Axe or you might not, but from experience realizing three months down the road that you really wish you had kept stuff is a bitch.


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

technomancer said:


> I'd say do what you want, but would recommend a middle ground. Get through the honeymoon phase before selling anything. If you're two months out owning the Axe and aren't using your amps then look at selling them. I've gone through similar with "going minimalist" and selling off stuff because reasons (Kemper, AxeFx, small rig with pedals for various tones, etc etc etc) and have always ended up buying stuff back and owning different things.
> 
> Give it some time, evaluate, and do what you think is best for you. You might be good with just the Axe or you might not, but from experience realizing three months down the road that you really wish you had kept stuff is a bitch.



I wish I could put it down to honeymoon period. I just think I was a tit that didn’t admit to being a gear whore. I’ve reconciled with that and now embrace it with reckless abandon 

as others have said - middle ground, do what works for you.


----------



## budda

@technomancer the trick is to not lose money when you have to buy it back


----------



## technomancer

The Thing Upstairs said:


> I wish I could put it down to honeymoon period. I just think I was a tit that didn’t admit to being a gear whore. I’ve reconciled with that and now embrace it with reckless abandon
> 
> as others have said - middle ground, do what works for you.



I am definitely a shameless gear whore 



budda said:


> @technomancer the trick is to not lose money when you have to buy it back



That's a good trick... usually hasn't worked out for me (except in the case of building replacements for the Friedmans I sold )


----------



## budda

I used up my gear karma in high school


----------



## cardinal

I have an old Marshall halfstack and Ampeg B15 that I don't think I could ever sell. 

But I went for the AFX because I'm constantly wanting something more "modern" but always get frustrated that I don't like it was well as the Marshall/Ampeg. Sell it off at a loss and repeat. 

So for me the Fractal is just a tool in hopes of scratching that METAL itch when it comes around. It happens to also sound practically indistinguishable from the Marshall, which is an added bonus. But the Marshall is not going anywhere.


----------



## RevDrucifer

I don’t sell gear at all anymore unless it’s something I know I can replace that doesn’t involve some mysterious mojo. I just put a Line 6 M5 towards a guitar purchase because there’s a million out there and they all sound the same. I wouldn’t do the same with a guitar or an older amp. 

My AxeFX III basically had me packing everything up and putting it in a closet. While I won’t sell the one amp I still own (a Peavey XXL), I certainly haven’t had the need to turn it on in over a year, nor feel the need to borrow any friend’s amps to record with. 

I’m always curious as to when people say “I couldn’t get this tone of the AxeFX” and in general, think it should be augmented with “I couldn’t get this tone out of the AxeFX _within the amount of time I spent trying to do so._”


----------



## shpence

Two questions that have probably been asked before but:
1. Has anyone with a FM3 used a midi relay box or something similar to switch an external amp's channels? Is it easy to have that change triggered via presets/scenes/channels?
2. Aside from pitch and the big reverbs, are there other cpu issues you've run into?


----------



## sakeido

budda said:


> @technomancer the trick is to not lose money when you have to buy it back



just got my Jackson SLSMG that was made in the latter days of that Japanese factory that closed.. got it back for what I sold it to my buddy for. This is the second time I've done that with that guitar  although this time, it's broken. Dead jack or something. 

now if only I could find somebody to take my amps off my hands.. HypeX FM3 sounds fan fucking tastic. I think that'll do it for the 6505 and Recto. I'm gonna keep the Stiletto cuz it sounds a little different than any of the Marshall models. but the rest is probably gonna go


----------



## Possessed

The Thing Upstairs said:


> I'd hang on if I were you or at least hold back on your favourite amps.
> 
> I've bought an AF3, went giddy, sold most of my amps, then went the other way, sold my AF3, bought amps and now I've just bought a mk2 and am loving it. Cant get off the block and badger model combo at the moment. I've even ordered a new FC6 for it.
> Will I sell my amps? Not likely - one or two perhaps but I'm not making that mistake again - my tastes change and I enjoy variety


Yeah, thats the reason I put some of my amp for sale not all of them. I still have a 5153 with me and in future I will definitely grab a soldano slo30


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

Possessed said:


> Yeah, thats the reason I put some of my amp for sale not all of them. I still have a 5153 with me and in future I will definitely grab a soldano slo30



I've sold my 6l6 5153 and kept the el34. I may sell my SC20 and will keep my roadster. I'm pausing buying anymore amps this year. 

The FC6 turned up today, I really like what they've done to the layouts now. Much improved workflow now and its addressed my main grumble with the looper setup. I'd imagine the FM3 with FC6 is awesome

I'm sure I'm imagining it but it also sounds way better than the AF3 I sold a few months back... could it be that the mk2 has more toanz? (I don't think so, I just think it is where they keep pushing out new code).


----------



## Shoeless_jose

sakeido said:


> FM3 all the way
> 
> I rented a Helix for shows and loved it... mostly cuz I hadn't used a modeler in forever. Absolutely beautiful unit. I'd just sit there staring it when it was on. But it came time to throw down some cash, it took me about six nanoseconds to buy a FM3 unheard instead of the Helix I'd extensively demoed



Hey curious what was Helix missing that made you happy to jump on FM3 so quickly


----------



## sakeido

Dineley said:


> Hey curious what was Helix missing that made you happy to jump on FM3 so quickly



Just the quality of the models. There was only a few on the Helix I liked, and my buddy kept feeding me awesome sounding Fractal Ares demos so I had no doubt I'd get better tones from the FM3 than the Helix. I was right


----------



## budda

Shoutout to this thread for just being the FM3 thread, for a while .


----------



## Deadpool_25

budda said:


> Shoutout to this thread for just being the FM3 thread, for a while .



lol yeah it evolved a long time ago.


----------



## AdenM

Recently sold a guitar or two and am finally ready to rebuild my "live" rig (thanks COVID). Planning on getting the FM3 and the Fractal expression pedal to start and may add the FC6 in the future. I've seen this question asked here and on the Fractal forums, but does anyone have a suggestion for power amp + cab vs FRFR? Mainly looking for something well made to get some rehearsal volume and won't take up too much space in my apartment - leaning FRFR, but the Atomic/XiTone/Friedman stuff seems expensive for what it is.


----------



## Deadpool_25

The Headrush 108 isn’t bad. I had one and returned it but I didn’t really take any time to dial it in. Do you have a combo amp with an FX return?


----------



## budda

AdenM said:


> Recently sold a guitar or two and am finally ready to rebuild my "live" rig (thanks COVID). Planning on getting the FM3 and the Fractal expression pedal to start and may add the FC6 in the future. I've seen this question asked here and on the Fractal forums, but does anyone have a suggestion for power amp + cab vs FRFR? Mainly looking for something well made to get some rehearsal volume and won't take up too much space in my apartment - leaning FRFR, but the Atomic/XiTone/Friedman stuff seems expensive for what it is.



Buy a used powered wedge and giv'r? 10" or 12" will handle the frequencies well, you can angle it to hear said frequencies, and they dont break the bank.

I had a powercab 112+ and liked it, but only jammed with it once. I just use headphones with a dash of monitors these days. I dont feel Im missing anything versus my old ppc412+twin.

Really, just try stuff you can sell or trade easily to try other stuff. Some people get really hung up on not hearing a cab - ymmv.4


----------



## Nik_Left_RG

sakeido said:


> Just the quality of the models. There was only a few on the Helix I liked, and my buddy kept feeding me awesome sounding Fractal Ares demos so I had no doubt I'd get better tones from the FM3 than the Helix. I was right



I hope you don't mind me budging in with a few Questions..

Does the FM3 'feel' better than the Helix ? Would you mind comparing it to NDSP Plini or Nolly on how it reacts under your fingers ?

And, finally, this is not directed at you but to general FM3 users - Does the FM3 get close to playing an actual tube-amp ? Like running my amp through a Torpedo load box and out to monitors / headphones..

I got a BE-OD Deluxe few months back and I have to say that it feels and sounds better than the Nolly . It still doesn't feel like an amp but it sounds more raw and smooth at the same time when compared to Nolly. Just for being a VST, the Nolly is pretty awesome though..


----------



## laxu

AdenM said:


> Recently sold a guitar or two and am finally ready to rebuild my "live" rig (thanks COVID). Planning on getting the FM3 and the Fractal expression pedal to start and may add the FC6 in the future. I've seen this question asked here and on the Fractal forums, but does anyone have a suggestion for power amp + cab vs FRFR? Mainly looking for something well made to get some rehearsal volume and won't take up too much space in my apartment - leaning FRFR, but the Atomic/XiTone/Friedman stuff seems expensive for what it is.



Either is fine. I used the Atomic FR (50W tube poweramp + 1x12 speaker + tweeter FRFR precedessor to the CLR) for years and it worked well plus allowed me to make maximum use of the Axe-Fx 2 cab sims. The FRFR setup is more versatile and will be closer to whatever you might run into the PA.

Poweramp + guitar cab on the other hand will sound more familiar at the expense of versatility.


----------



## laxu

Nik_Left_RG said:


> I hope you don't mind me budging in with a few Questions..
> 
> Does the FM3 'feel' better than the Helix ? Would you mind comparing it to NDSP Plini or Nolly on how it reacts under your fingers ?
> 
> And, finally, this is not directed at you but to general FM3 users - Does the FM3 get close to playing an actual tube-amp ? Like running my amp through a Torpedo load box and out to monitors / headphones..
> 
> I got a BE-OD Deluxe few months back and I have to say that it feels and sounds better than the Nolly . It still doesn't feel like an amp but it sounds more raw and smooth at the same time when compared to Nolly. Just for being a VST, the Nolly is pretty awesome though..



How well plugins work is heavily dependent on the quality of your audio interface. Preferably you have a good 1MOhm high impedance input so it's similar to plugging into the front end of an amp. The second factor is round trip latency. You want the lowest buffer size that lets you have sound without pops and clicks or other anomalies and the rest is up to any additional latency the signal chain as well as the rest of the audio interface introduces. If you use active pickups the high impedance input quality is not relevant and you can just plug into a mic pre.

Hardware units like the Helix or FM3 will always be lower latency than you can get with plugins. Real amps into loadboxes are yet another step up from there though I feel Fractal and Line6 units are already in the "I don't care about latency" category.

As for FM3 vs Helix...I haven't tried them side by side but extensively tested Axe-Fx 2 vs Helix Floor. With the same OwnHammer IRs I could dial the Helix to sound and feel identical to the Fractal. One of the worst parts of the Helix is the stock cab sims. They are a bit rubbish and require more effort to get a good sound than just using a great multi-mic IR. Fractal's extensive set of IRs will do better out of the box.


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

I have owned Helix, KPA and AF3 not FM3 but the modelling is the same. 
The Helix is really good, especially with third party IRs. The AF3 worked better in 4CM with amps and I prefer the modelling and workflow. the KPA sounded great but really needed an FRFR setup (I used studio monitors). I liked the way the KPA felt. 

I’ve settled on AF3 because I can use it in 4CM and it sounds good through monitors although I do prefer using an amp and cab (I use the waza TAE as it is flat so I get the benefit of the AF3 power amp modelling). 
it’s hard to describe but I do think the fractal gear feels more like an amp. Comparing the AF3 5153 to my real 5153 or the recto model to my roadster, I really couldn’t tell the difference in a blind test both in terms of feel and sound. Just an eq difference.


----------



## Mr_Marty

I would say the Helix is roughly equivalent to the older AxeFx's. It's not in the same league at all as the AxeFx 3. It's UI might be nicer but sonically it doesn't compete and the feel is not nearly as nice.


----------



## sakeido

Nik_Left_RG said:


> I hope you don't mind me budging in with a few Questions..
> 
> Does the FM3 'feel' better than the Helix ? Would you mind comparing it to NDSP Plini or Nolly on how it reacts under your fingers ?



I'd rank them FM3 (majority of models) > Nolly > some FM3 models > anything on Helix. Nolly is really, really good and definitely tops some of the FAS whatever models, but the best FM3 models are just fantastic. VSTs are closer than ever but still have a little ways to go.. Neural Gojira sounds fucking amazing but feels worse than any of their other stuff because it has that extra latency you can't get rid of.

In a mix I think all of em have great tones that I'd be totally happy with putting on a record. Hell I did my last album with a much "worse" VST than any of the Neural stuff and was totally happy with it. It's mostly down to feel.



> And, finally, this is not directed at you but to general FM3 users - Does the FM3 get close to playing an actual tube-amp ? Like running my amp through a Torpedo load box and out to monitors / headphones..



I've been running my FM3 into a solid state power amp and my real guitars, and yes it feels like a real tube amp at its best, except I find I can't dial in the treble/presence to sound like a tube amp - all my FM3 tones tend to the dark side, but I'm still pretty early into trying to dial it in. My Mesa Stiletto sounds fan fucking tastic and I haven't even approach that tone yet but I already dialed in my FM3 Recto to sound better than my actual Recto, cuz I can basically mod the FM3 model in-the-box and dial out all the qualities I don't like about the real amp.

edit: forgot to add, I actually prefer how the FM3 sounds through my monitors, over how it sounds through a power amp into a real cab.. which I did not expect.


----------



## cardinal

I've been running an AFXIII into a flat, high-powered PA amp and real cabs. Compared the actual amp, it's super close. I swear at louder volumes, the real amp is rattling the room more, for better or worse. And it seems like the real amp is somehow more forward. It's not really brighter or more presence, just... it's right there jumping out a bit more. Dunno. 

The Fractal sounds great though and it's basically all I've been using since I got it.


----------



## Nik_Left_RG

Yeah, I agree Nolly is probably one of the best plug-ins I have played so far. And I am glad to hear that FAS tops it. Thanks @sakeido

Now, with all this knowledge in hand, I shall plan for my next gear conquest 

lol


----------



## c7spheres

Man, all this talk about feel and dynamics with the AxeFx being there now. It's the thing I've been on about for a long time now. Dynamics/feel and breakup. 
- I gotta try one of these units to see, but I just don't believe the hype. 
- I want to believe, but I just can't. I can't until I try one.
- Are you all a bunch of AI people trying to make me buy this thing or something? This subject comes up on here and the Fractal forum and a new firmware starts getting written specifically dealing with "my" concern. 
- Either I'm in the twilight zone, you're a bunch of AI's, or it's true. Maybe all are true, I dunno, but hearing this stuff come from you guys is really making me think harder here about the AxeFx III. I've read many of all your posts about other stuff in the past and respect your opinions so now I'm even more mind-F~!k'd !


----------



## budda

@c7spheres i told you to buy one last year after I had spent some time with mine and made clips 

Grab an fm3 and dive in. Dont like it after a few months? Sell it.

Lotta waffling, cmon down haha.


----------



## sakeido

budda said:


> @c7spheres i told you to buy one last year after I had spent some time with mine and made clips
> 
> Grab an fm3 and dive in. Dont like it after a few months? Sell it.
> 
> Lotta waffling, cmon down haha.



yeah on that note, Fractal stuff hardly depreciates at all. Use it for a few months, lose maybe $100 when you sell it.. very cheap and fun rental to play with. So little risk involved with trying their stuff out.

hell if they run into supply problems like everybody else and have to bring the waitlists back, you could own it for a few months and then sell it for more than you got it


----------



## cyb

sakeido said:


> yeah on that note, Fractal stuff hardly depreciates at all. Use it for a few months, lose maybe $100 when you sell it.. very cheap and fun rental to play with. So little risk involved with trying their stuff out.
> 
> hell if they run into supply problems like everybody else and have to bring the waitlists back, you could own it for a few months and then sell it for more than you got it



Not sure if fractal stuff would be affected, but all the chip shortage stuff made me nervous enough to go ahead and finally pull the trigger on the Axe III.


----------



## cardinal

c7spheres said:


> Man, all this talk about feel and dynamics with the AxeFx being there now. It's the thing I've been on about for a long time now. Dynamics/feel and breakup.
> - I gotta try one of these units to see, but I just don't believe the hype.
> - I want to believe, but I just can't. I can't until I try one.
> - Are you all a bunch of AI people trying to make me buy this thing or something? This subject comes up on here and the Fractal forum and a new firmware starts getting written specifically dealing with "my" concern.
> - Either I'm in the twilight zone, you're a bunch of AI's, or it's true. Maybe all are true, I dunno, but hearing this stuff come from you guys is really making me think harder here about the AxeFx III. I've read many of all your posts about other stuff in the past and respect your opinions so now I'm even more mind-F~!k'd !
> 
> View attachment 91875



I dunno really what people mean by the feel of a modeler. Some amps are stuff or bouncy or whatever, i get that, but I don't know that I really feel that sensation of the AFXIII. It doesn't feel weird, but that's about all I can say on it. 

I had an AFXII long time ago when they first came out and hated it. That did feel bad to me. Not sure how to describe it, and maybe it's because I was using an awful power amp, but I couldn't get rid of it fast enough. The AFXIII has been fine since I first plugged in.


----------



## c7spheres

sakeido said:


> yeah on that note, Fractal stuff hardly depreciates at all. Use it for a few months, lose maybe $100 when you sell it.. very cheap and fun rental to play with. So little risk involved with trying their stuff out.
> 
> hell if they run into supply problems like everybody else and have to bring the waitlists back, you could own it for a few months and then sell it for more than you got it



What I'm looking at is the AxeFxIII. I'd buy direct from Fractal and use their return policy if I didn't jive with it for some reason. I'm basically gonna figure out everything I want to do with it initially, how to quickly program it and get it going and then have fun. That way I don't spend all my time figuring it out when I first get it. I know there's no plans for Axe Edit III to be stand alone but it would've been nice so I could just dump a .sysex file into it. Thanks for your input. I've thought about it and keep thinking they're going to raise the price on it. I'm also debating the Synergy stuff along with an Eventide or something like that. I'm just not in a big hurry because I'm prety happy with my current rig. I might try an FM3 just to get an idea of the feel and sound and if I like then return it and upgrade to the III. So many options. : )




cardinal said:


> I dunno really what people mean by the feel of a modeler. Some amps are stuff or bouncy or whatever, i get that, but I don't know that I really feel that sensation of the AFXIII. It doesn't feel weird, but that's about all I can say on it.
> 
> I had an AFXII long time ago when they first came out and hated it. That did feel bad to me. Not sure how to describe it, and maybe it's because I was using an awful power amp, but I couldn't get rid of it fast enough. The AFXIII has been fine since I first plugged in.



I agree. Everything feels and sounds differnt. Some expensive tube amps feel and break up like solid state amps (like my freinds Marshall JCM 2000, I know, not a popular opinion, Many Randall tube heads etc) 
- I don't really care about tube, solid state digital etc. To me it's all about the interaction of my playing and the dynamic and breakup response. So far only tube power sections do it for me but at extreme levels solid state works just fine, perhaps even better. To me that's the feel of any amp/preamp. There's a biofeedback thing going on and you just feel it and know it when it's happening.


----------



## budda

Just buy the thing already . Factory presets are pretty solid and actually useable (amp type + effect type) and between Leon tutorials and axe edit it is laughably easy to get going. Reading the manual prior to buying means you'll be playing in 5m.


----------



## c7spheres

budda said:


> Just buy the thing already . Factory presets are pretty solid and actually useable (amp type + effect type) and between Leon tutorials and axe edit it is laughably easy to get going. Reading the manual prior to buying means you'll be playing in 5m.


 I'm gonna start selling off some unessentials. Cables, splitters, things like that. After I kidnap a couple babies and get the ransom money I should have enough.


----------



## budda

c7spheres said:


> I'm gonna start selling off some unessentials. Cables, splitters, things like that. After I kidnap a couple babies and get the ransom money I should have enough.


----------



## RevDrucifer

Figuring out Axe-Edit with the III was a breeze. I had never used a Fractal product prior to getting mine and after the initial hour of playing through the factory presets, I was off to the races and building my own presets.

That said, it still took me a couple months of really learning what the deeper parameters did before I was dialing stuff in I loved. But for that you need the AxeFX anyway, as just turning the knobs won’t tell you what it’s actually doing. 

Now with the Cygnus update, I’m barely needing to tweak the deeper parameters outside of the Speaker Impedance Curve because that’s the magic option that lets you make a Marshall Boogie Plexifier out of one amp. 

Oh and about the factory presets, I recommend trying them out with single coils if you can. I was REALLY unimpressed and honestly kind of concerned when I first got mine and it wasn’t until I bought a Strat with all single coils that I was like “Ohhhhhhh, ok, that makes sense.” A low output humbucker would work just the same. Just don’t get thrown off guard when you get it and start checking them out.


----------



## budda

Also [email protected] runner is fun times (factory preset).


----------



## cardinal

budda said:


> Also [email protected] runner is fun times (factory preset).



If I were in band with a Fractal guy, it'd be my mission to secretly swap his overdrive footswitch to call up the Bladerunner preset instead.


----------



## budda

cardinal said:


> If I were in band with a Fractal guy, it'd be my mission to secretly swap his overdrive footswitch to call up the Bladerunner preset instead.



I hope that one day we get a polyphonic synth down to 40hz. Not banking on it, but lordy bass would get wild


----------



## Thrashman

Rejoice, we're going to get the "missing" drive pedals (ocd's, precision drive etc) in the next beta/update along with CYGNUS and,... ULTRARES! 

Fuck me being a Fractal user feels good.


----------



## budda

Thrashman said:


> Rejoice, we're going to get the "missing" drive pedals (ocd's, precision drive etc) in the next beta/update along with CYGNUS and,... ULTRARES!
> 
> Fuck me being a Fractal user feels good.



That confused me for a minute


----------



## laxu

Thrashman said:


> Rejoice, we're going to get the "missing" drive pedals (ocd's, precision drive etc) in the next beta/update along with CYGNUS and,... ULTRARES!
> 
> Fuck me being a Fractal user feels good.



Ultrares is IMO not really worth much vs 2048 sample IRs but at least you will have the option.


----------



## broangiel

laxu said:


> Ultrares is IMO not really worth much vs 2048 sample IRs but at least you will have the option.


Didn’t you just point out in the QC thread that the lack of UltraRes made FM3 incomplete?

edit: nope, my bad. That was mikah.


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

Offtopic but may as well ask anyway ...

Who's using external pedals with their II, III or FM3?

I've got a III and a mission expression pedal but after a few months off modellers with my other rig, I'm really digging my Morley wah (Tremonti). Yes it sounds awesome but so do the ones on the III - what I prefer about the Morley is the feel - I just can't dig the non springy chunkiness of the mission compared to the sprung buttery smoothness of the Morley


----------



## laxu

Well...I just scored a used FM3 so I will be doing a Helix Floor vs FM3 vs Quad Cortex soon. I'll probably wait for the new firmware for the FM3 so it can show its best.


----------



## RevDrucifer

The Thing Upstairs said:


> Offtopic but may as well ask anyway ...
> 
> Who's using external pedals with their II, III or FM3?
> 
> I've got a III and a mission expression pedal but after a few months off modellers with my other rig, I'm really digging my Morley wah (Tremonti). Yes it sounds awesome but so do the ones on the III - what I prefer about the Morley is the feel - I just can't dig the non springy chunkiness of the mission compared to the sprung buttery smoothness of the Morley



Mission Engineering makes spring loaded ones as well. I’ve considered getting one because while I didn’t care for the Bad Horsie I had, I do like a little resistance on the pedal. Supposedly, you can adjust the regular ME pedals, but mine’s as tight as it’ll go.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

The Thing Upstairs said:


> Offtopic but may as well ask anyway ...
> 
> Who's using external pedals with their II, III or FM3?
> 
> I've got a III and a mission expression pedal but after a few months off modellers with my other rig, I'm really digging my Morley wah (Tremonti). Yes it sounds awesome but so do the ones on the III - what I prefer about the Morley is the feel - I just can't dig the non springy chunkiness of the mission compared to the sprung buttery smoothness of the Morley



The spring-loaded Missions are actually pretty good. Much more resistance and travel than my Morley's


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

MASS DEFECT said:


> The spring-loaded Missions are actually pretty good. Much more resistance and travel than my Morley's



Glad to hear that - I've just ordered one from Thomann because I didn't want to faff around with external pedals at the mo


----------



## Deadpool_25

Finally got around to really setting up the FM3 in 4CM with the Stealth. It’s awesome. That is all.


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

If you've got any noise, use hum busters - I found them to be very effective.


----------



## Deadpool_25

The Thing Upstairs said:


> If you've got any noise, use hum busters - I found them to be very effective.



No noise issues at all last night. That can definitely change day to day though so we’ll see. I do have a few Humbuster cables on hand if needed. I also have an Ebtech hum eliminator if worse comes to worst lol.


----------



## cardinal

My two big complaints with the Fractal so far are that it doesn't seem to have the same room-rattling thump of an actual amp (despite sounding about the same) and that it doesn't seem to have the pop or in-your-face-ness of the real amp.

I think I've got the latter issue sorted: I was running the master volumes too high, which I guess was compressing things.

The headroom meter is super helpful, and I reworked my high-gain stuff to make sure it was almost but not quite running out of headroom. Now the notes just jump out, and the weird woofy low end that'd Id get sometimes is gone.

This makes a bit of sense, as even my 2204 I don't typically run hard enough to overdrive the power section, even when I can. I guess I prefer preamp gain more, which my explain why I prefer the 2204 for a NMV Marshall.


----------



## budda

@cardinal if you want the room to rattle, ya gotta turn it up. Physics will physics.


----------



## cardinal

budda said:


> @cardinal if you want the room to rattle, ya gotta turn it up. Physics will physics.



Yeah, this is at loud volumes through the same guitar cab. Not sure what it is. The amp doesn't seem to have more bass or whatever dialed in. I just feel it more and can hear the room rattling more.


----------



## Mr_Marty

cardinal said:


> Yeah, this is at loud volumes through the same guitar cab. Not sure what it is. The amp doesn't seem to have more bass or whatever dialed in. I just feel it more and can hear the room rattling more.


Did you try adjusting the speaker resonance. People say that's the key to using a real cab.


----------



## cardinal

Mr_Marty said:


> Did you try adjusting the speaker resonance. People say that's the key to using a real cab.



I have the speaker impedance thing selected to the cab most like the one I'm using, and that I think is automatically adjusting the speaker resonance, though all all of the deep editing things have me a bit lost so I could be wrong.


----------



## Shask

cardinal said:


> Yeah, this is at loud volumes through the same guitar cab. Not sure what it is. The amp doesn't seem to have more bass or whatever dialed in. I just feel it more and can hear the room rattling more.


That is the same issue I have had with my Axe-FX II, and have mentioned it for years around here. It is amazing, and sounds great, but there is something about the low end that just doesn't chug the same. The bass is there, but it just doesn't move with you the same way a tube amp does. I have wondered if the III has improved on this, since it has those impedance curves built in. On the II, the key is the speaker page, and dialing in the resonance settings. You can get it much better, and much closer, but never the same.


----------



## laxu

Shask said:


> That is the same issue I have had with my Axe-FX II, and have mentioned it for years around here. It is amazing, and sounds great, but there is something about the low end that just doesn't chug the same. The bass is there, but it just doesn't move with you the same way a tube amp does. I have wondered if the III has improved on this, since it has those impedance curves built in. On the II, the key is the speaker page, and dialing in the resonance settings. You can get it much better, and much closer, but never the same.



It might be a question of what poweramp you use with the modeler. Also if you are going to compare to a real amp, remember to use a decibel meter or app to match the levels so you aren't mistaking less volume for less thump.

I find that running the Helix preamps into my tube amp powersections is not markedly different from using the real tube preamps. Maybe a bit smoother, a bit more compressed at most but I don't have the exact amp modeled either. It could also be an issue like too much or too little output level into the fx loop compared to the tube amp.


----------



## technomancer

I still don't get the obsessive compulsive A/B comparisons of this stuff. If you want the exact sound of a specific amp through a specific cab use the damn thing  For that matter two "identical" amps and cabs side by side are not going to sound identical due to a large number of factors so what is the point of it?

I want something that sounds good in a specific situation. I could care less if the FM3 through a light weight FRFR sounds identical to my 100w amp through a 4x12. What I do care about is that it sounds fantastic and is enjoyable to play through in a situation where i don't want to lug 100lbs+ of amp and cab.

My amps and cabs aren't going anywhere, and I will undoubtedly buy / build more, but the Fractal has a place in my gear and is also not going anywhere.


----------



## Deadpool_25

cardinal said:


> ...it doesn't seem to have the same room-rattling thump of an actual amp...





laxu said:


> It might be a question of what poweramp you use with the modeler.



This can definitely be a thing. When I was using a Matrix power amp through real cabs (years ago with my AxeFX II XL+) I wasn’t getting the same type of low end. It wasn’t bad at all but it just wasn’t quite the same. When I switched to using the amp FX loop it was there. I never tried the FM3 with a solid state power amp but using it through the real amps does the trick (I typically set power amp sag to 0.01, the lowest setting before it turns power amp modeling off).

My guess is you can get that thump out of the Fractals using the power amp settings but there are so many things to adjust it’s hard to figure out what to tweak. I did set the impedance curve and that helped a bit but it still wasn’t quite there.


----------



## budda

The speaker compression was just updated. Im gonna mess with that when I update.


----------



## Deadpool_25

technomancer said:


> I still don't get the obsessive compulsive A/B comparisons of this stuff. If you want the exact sound of a specific amp through a specific cab use the damn thing  For that matter two "identical" amps and cabs side by side are not going to sound identical due to a large number of factors so what is the point of it?
> 
> I want something that sounds good in a specific situation. I could care less if the FM3 through a light weight FRFR sounds identical to my 100w amp through a 4x12. What I do care about is that it sounds fantastic and is enjoyable to play through in a situation where i don't want to lug 100lbs+ of amp and cab.
> 
> My amps and cabs aren't going anywhere, and I will undoubtedly buy / build more, but the Fractal has a place in my gear and is also not going anywhere.



Youre kinda right but there’s still a very natural tendency for folks to compare these things to real amps because that’s what the modeler is attempting to replicate.


----------



## Deadpool_25

budda said:


> The speaker compression was just updated. Im gonna mess with that when I update.



Yeah it sounds like maybe this has been improved in Cygnus. I won’t know because I still love using the FM3 through my real amps. I don’t have a solid state power amp to try and have no desire to get one.


----------



## Kyle Jordan

@Deadpool_25 How does the FM3 differ when run through the power amps of your tube heads? Not against an SS amp, but how much do the tube power amps affect the tones in comparison to each other?


----------



## Shask

laxu said:


> It might be a question of what poweramp you use with the modeler. Also if you are going to compare to a real amp, remember to use a decibel meter or app to match the levels so you aren't mistaking less volume for less thump.
> 
> I find that running the Helix preamps into my tube amp powersections is not markedly different from using the real tube preamps. Maybe a bit smoother, a bit more compressed at most but I don't have the exact amp modeled either. It could also be an issue like too much or too little output level into the fx loop compared to the tube amp.


I typically use a Matrix GT1000FX, so not cheap stuff. I also have an ART SLA-2 I have used. Same volume levels.

It does sound closer if I use the power section of a tube amp, but at that point, why use it? Might as well just use the amp. That is what I do many times, with the Axe in the loop for effects.

The tube power section helps with getting that output transformer - speaker impedance interaction, which is needed for that important resonance/depth circuit.


----------



## Shask

technomancer said:


> I still don't get the obsessive compulsive A/B comparisons of this stuff. If you want the exact sound of a specific amp through a specific cab use the damn thing  For that matter two "identical" amps and cabs side by side are not going to sound identical due to a large number of factors so what is the point of it?
> 
> I want something that sounds good in a specific situation. I could care less if the FM3 through a light weight FRFR sounds identical to my 100w amp through a 4x12. What I do care about is that it sounds fantastic and is enjoyable to play through in a situation where i don't want to lug 100lbs+ of amp and cab.
> 
> My amps and cabs aren't going anywhere, and I will undoubtedly buy / build more, but the Fractal has a place in my gear and is also not going anywhere.


I dont think it is a matter of comparing to make it identical. I think it is just noticing something is missing or different. It doesn't matter if it sounds just like a 5150, or Recto, or JCM800, or whatever, but if the low end don't feel right, then all of the amp models seem off.

Obviously if your goal is a light fly rig, you are going to give up tone for convenience. It is part of your reason for using it. If you are someone like me who just sits around home playing it and notices every detail, it stands out because convenience isn't really part of the equation.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Kyle Jordan said:


> @Deadpool_25 How does the FM3 differ when run through the power amps of your tube heads? Not against an SS amp, but how much do the tube power amps affect the tones in comparison to each other?



That’s a fantastic question. I’ve now run the FM3 through the invective, be-100 deluxe, evh, and 6505. I feel like they all did an amazing job with the possible exception of the 6505 which just doesn’t seem quite as transparent/clean.

I’ve had them all up to what I’d guess is gig volume or close to it, but I’m not really getting any of them loud enough to get significant power amp distortion.

So basically it’s sounded pretty much the same through any of those amps (with the same cab of course). 

Is that answering your question?


----------



## Kyle Jordan

Yes that was a helpful answer. Thank you.

I'm just starting the planning stages. I've always thought of running the Axe FX both as an All-In-One deal, and as a virtual slave amp rig with no IR/mics in to a tube power amp. 

There are about 3-5 tube heads I still plan on getting just because I've wanted them for so long, and I'd also like to get the Fryette Power Station 2. I was basically wondering if I should get the PS2 first, or make effort to save and sale towards one of the amps I'd like. This is all still a ways off, but it pays to think ahead. 

Thanks again.


----------



## budda

Buy the thing with 250 amps first


----------



## laxu

Kyle Jordan said:


> There are about 3-5 tube heads I still plan on getting just because I've wanted them for so long, and I'd also like to get the Fryette Power Station 2. I was basically wondering if I should get the PS2 first, or make effort to save and sale towards one of the amps I'd like. This is all still a ways off, but it pays to think ahead.



The Power Station 2 makes an excellent poweramp for modelers. I would probably spring for the PS100 just to have that dual control set switching ability as it would be useful if you want to have different attenuation levels for cleans vs overdrive.


----------



## Mathemagician

budda said:


> Buy the thing with 250 *5150’s* first



Ftfy.


----------



## budda

Mathemagician said:


> Ftfy.



I think there's 5 5150s? Which is 5 more than I had in my possession prior to buying.

Now, if we're talking amps that sound like 5150s...


----------



## laxu

So I got my FM3 and just spent about 3 hours playing through it, setting up my base preset. It looks like it will be fender Super Reverb 4x10 for cleans, Cornford MK50 for crunch, Mesa JP2C Red for heavy tones and still undecided what I will use for leads, maybe a Soldano SLO.

The hardware UI is an improvement over the Axe-Fx 2 but still kinda horrible. It constantly takes you to different looking views and it's very difficult to keep your orientation. When using the Helix from the hardware I am never confused what my preset arrangement looks like, what I am editing or where I will end up next. I am also starting to understand why people would like a "go back to previous thing" when it comes to editing as it's easy to cycle past what you intended to edit.

It's got so many little things that are inconvenient like why can't I use the knobs to select IR list filters and have to cycle them with the button? Why does it show filters for cab types that don't even exist in the bank? Why can't I cycle around in lists (press up on first item to go to last and vice versa)? Why does A-knob sometimes work as scroll and in some views it's the value wheel? Why is adding a block so completely awful still that you need to scroll every single block type and they are not categorized, color coded, divided or in some way sensible?

I do like some things on the hardware. Meters view is very handy and having an EQ graph when messing with parametric EQs is very useful. It could use more markers for frequencies though. Connecting it with SPDIF was also very handy.

It's basically a less terrible version of my Axe-Fx Std/2 experiences. The hardware UI is cumbersome and confusing. The moment I opened FM3-Edit all that was just completely gone. That software is great to work with and I quickly managed to get tones that I really enjoyed. I love the channels feature because it simplifies managing everything as I can just go "amp A goes with cab A setup and amp B goes with cab B setup".

It sounds excellent and I was really not expecting to like it as much as I do. I thought this was going to be a "yeah, let's buy this one to try it against the Helix and Quad Cortex, then I'll sell it" but now it might turn out to be a keeper.

The processing power on the unit is just barely enough for me. My base preset has a typical "in -> comp -> od -> amp -> cab -> chorus -> delay -> reverb -> looper -> out" type path with delay in parallel with reverb. This puts it right at the edge of that 80% barrier.


----------



## cardinal

I think the reverbs can be run with lower resolution to lessen their processing needs? I haven't messed with it, but maybe it'd help you free up some room.


----------



## budda

Put your reverb in economy, and dont use a shunt if you dont need to .

As for how the front panel operates, check system config settings.


----------



## Nik_Left_RG

laxu said:


> So .....
> It sounds excellent and I was really not expecting to like it as much as I do. I thought this was going to be a "yeah, let's buy this one to try it against the Helix and Quad Cortex, then I'll sell it" but now it might turn out to be a keeper.
> 
> The processing power on the unit is just barely enough for me. My base preset has a typical "in -> comp -> od -> amp -> cab -> chorus -> delay -> reverb -> looper -> out" type path with delay in parallel with reverb. This puts it right at the edge of that 80% barrier.



How does it compare to your Helix, sound wise ?


----------



## laxu

cardinal said:


> I think the reverbs can be run with lower resolution to lessen their processing needs? I haven't messed with it, but maybe it'd help you free up some room.



I think I have mine set to "normal" so there's still some room if I need more blocks.


----------



## laxu

Nik_Left_RG said:


> How does it compare to your Helix, sound wise ?



I only briefly compared it to Helix Native which being a plugin has a bit higher latency and using my Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 2nd gen as audio interface will have an effect too. I will try it vs the Helix Floor tomorrow. 

I compared the Fender Princeton models on both amps since the "US Princess" is one of the newest models on the Helix. I used a ML Sound Lab IR to have a consistent experience. It was actually a very similar experience to what I had for Axe-Fx 2 vs Helix a few years ago. I could dial the Helix to sound very similar but the settings were very different from the Fractal unit. Helix needed way less bass and more treble. I feel the Fractal sounded more right out of the box.

I don't want to really fully pass judgement until the Cygnus update lands on the FM3 and the 3.1 update for the Helix.


----------



## Nik_Left_RG

laxu said:


> I only briefly compared it to Helix Native which being a plugin has a bit higher latency and using my Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 2nd gen as audio interface will have an effect too. I will try it vs the Helix Floor tomorrow.
> 
> I compared the Fender Princeton models on both amps since the "US Princess" is one of the newest models on the Helix. I used a ML Sound Lab IR to have a consistent experience. It was actually a very similar experience to what I had for Axe-Fx 2 vs Helix a few years ago. I could dial the Helix to sound very similar but the settings were very different from the Fractal unit. Helix needed way less bass and more treble. I feel the Fractal sounded more right out of the box.
> 
> I don't want to really fully pass judgement until the Cygnus update lands on the FM3 and the 3.1 update for the Helix.




Fair enough.

Definitely looking forward to your QC vs FM3 vs Helix thread ..


----------



## Deadpool_25

Kyle Jordan said:


> Yes that was a helpful answer. Thank you.
> 
> I'm just starting the planning stages. I've always thought of running the Axe FX both as an All-In-One deal, and as a virtual slave amp rig with no IR/mics in to a tube power amp.
> 
> There are about 3-5 tube heads I still plan on getting just because I've wanted them for so long, and I'd also like to get the Fryette Power Station 2. I was basically wondering if I should get the PS2 first, or make effort to save and sale towards one of the amps I'd like. This is all still a ways off, but it pays to think ahead.
> 
> Thanks again.



As much as it pains me to admit , @budda is probably right. If you get the Fractal and the PS2 first, it’s _possible_ it’ll kill your amp gas.

That wasn’t the case for me with the Axe II XL or even the FM3. I want what I want. But it’s certainly possible for other people.


----------



## Mathemagician

laxu said:


> So I got my FM3 and just spent about 3 hours playing through it, setting up my base preset. It looks like it will be fender Super Reverb 4x10 for cleans, Cornford MK50 for crunch, Mesa JP2C Red for heavy tones and still undecided what I will use for leads, maybe a Soldano SLO.
> 
> The hardware UI is an improvement over the Axe-Fx 2 but still kinda horrible. It constantly takes you to different looking views and it's very difficult to keep your orientation. When using the Helix from the hardware I am never confused what my preset arrangement looks like, what I am editing or where I will end up next. I am also starting to understand why people would like a "go back to previous thing" when it comes to editing as it's easy to cycle past what you intended to edit.
> 
> It's got so many little things that are inconvenient like why can't I use the knobs to select IR list filters and have to cycle them with the button? Why does it show filters for cab types that don't even exist in the bank? Why can't I cycle around in lists (press up on first item to go to last and vice versa)? Why does A-knob sometimes work as scroll and in some views it's the value wheel? Why is adding a block so completely awful still that you need to scroll every single block type and they are not categorized, color coded, divided or in some way sensible?
> 
> I do like some things on the hardware. Meters view is very handy and having an EQ graph when messing with parametric EQs is very useful. It could use more markers for frequencies though. Connecting it with SPDIF was also very handy.
> 
> It's basically a less terrible version of my Axe-Fx Std/2 experiences. The hardware UI is cumbersome and confusing. The moment I opened FM3-Edit all that was just completely gone. That software is great to work with and I quickly managed to get tones that I really enjoyed. I love the channels feature because it simplifies managing everything as I can just go "amp A goes with cab A setup and amp B goes with cab B setup".
> 
> It sounds excellent and I was really not expecting to like it as much as I do. I thought this was going to be a "yeah, let's buy this one to try it against the Helix and Quad Cortex, then I'll sell it" but now it might turn out to be a keeper.
> 
> The processing power on the unit is just barely enough for me. My base preset has a typical "in -> comp -> od -> amp -> cab -> chorus -> delay -> reverb -> looper -> out" type path with delay in parallel with reverb. This puts it right at the edge of that 80% barrier.



I dicked around with the hardware for like 5 minutes and then opened FM3 edit. And I have no intention of ever editing on the modeler itself.

It’s not “unusable” but it is a toughie to justify versus the more understandable edit software.


----------



## Deadpool_25

laxu said:


> So I got my FM3 and just spent about 3 hours playing through it, setting up my base preset. It looks like it will be fender Super Reverb 4x10 for cleans, Cornford MK50 for crunch, Mesa JP2C Red for heavy tones and still undecided what I will use for leads, maybe a Soldano SLO.
> 
> The hardware UI is an improvement over the Axe-Fx 2 but still kinda horrible. It constantly takes you to different looking views and it's very difficult to keep your orientation. When using the Helix from the hardware I am never confused what my preset arrangement looks like, what I am editing or where I will end up next. I am also starting to understand why people would like a "go back to previous thing" when it comes to editing as it's easy to cycle past what you intended to edit.
> 
> It's got so many little things that are inconvenient like why can't I use the knobs to select IR list filters and have to cycle them with the button? Why does it show filters for cab types that don't even exist in the bank? Why can't I cycle around in lists (press up on first item to go to last and vice versa)? Why does A-knob sometimes work as scroll and in some views it's the value wheel? Why is adding a block so completely awful still that you need to scroll every single block type and they are not categorized, color coded, divided or in some way sensible?
> 
> I do like some things on the hardware. Meters view is very handy and having an EQ graph when messing with parametric EQs is very useful. It could use more markers for frequencies though. Connecting it with SPDIF was also very handy.
> 
> It's basically a less terrible version of my Axe-Fx Std/2 experiences. The hardware UI is cumbersome and confusing. The moment I opened FM3-Edit all that was just completely gone. That software is great to work with and I quickly managed to get tones that I really enjoyed. I love the channels feature because it simplifies managing everything as I can just go "amp A goes with cab A setup and amp B goes with cab B setup".
> 
> It sounds excellent and I was really not expecting to like it as much as I do. I thought this was going to be a "yeah, let's buy this one to try it against the Helix and Quad Cortex, then I'll sell it" but now it might turn out to be a keeper.
> 
> The processing power on the unit is just barely enough for me. My base preset has a typical "in -> comp -> od -> amp -> cab -> chorus -> delay -> reverb -> looper -> out" type path with delay in parallel with reverb. This puts it right at the edge of that 80% barrier.



I don’t find the hardware “horrible” but I definitely agree that it isn’t particularly pleasant to work with. Okay, yeah it’s just straight up clunky feeling. I have to use the Page buttons to select a tab, then I have to arrow around to get to what I want to edit, then I need to turn a knob to edit it. Scrolling through pages of cabs and amps is certainly a little annoying as well.

Selecting a block isn’t bad as they’re basically in alphabetical order (input/output blocks are first though).

Like you said the editing software is excellent and makes most tasks much easier.

On processing power, I would love to see them rework the code so that you aren’t limited in terms of blocks and how they are allocated to the unit’s DSPs. Like if I just want 6 drive blocks and I’m under the DSP threshold, it should let me do that. Likewise if I want 4 amps and and under the threshold I should be able to do that too.

Every now and then I consider getting an AxeFX III just so I can run dual amps, but then I tell myself to wait for whatever the next iteration of Fractal’s floor modeler turns out to be. Enough people want a full power floor version I have to think that’s somewhere on the horizon (even if a few years away).


----------



## laxu

Deadpool_25 said:


> On processing power, I would love to see them rework the code so that you aren’t limited in terms of blocks and how they are allocated to the unit’s DSPs. Like if I just want 6 drive blocks and I’m under the DSP threshold, it should let me do that. Likewise if I want 4 amps and an under the threshold I should be able to do that too.



Agreed. I do understand the architectural challenges of that though, it's why Helix and QC have those multiple path systems so it's up to the end user to manage the DSP allocation, which makes the UI less straightforward. It requires a bit more planning where you put each block to maximize the DSP used.

I have kinda given up on dual amp presets. The only time I have made it work well is on the Yamaha THR100HD but that's because the unit is built to work with that and is simple enough that it's easy to tweak each channel to work together. On other modelers it's always been a bit of a struggle to find combinations that end up actually sounding better than a single amp rather than just adding complexity.

Quad Cortex's ability to run effectively multiple full effect setups in a single preset is pretty impressive, I think one of Ola Englund's videos had 4 different paths each with a different amp, cab and a few fx. I tried making that on the Helix and ran out of DSP before I even got close. But ultimately most of us don't need that and the channels feature on the FM3 makes up for a lot.


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

Dual amps are ok. I’ve not used them much because I get sounds I like without them. 

I will experiment more in time. 

In the couple of weeks I’ve had my mk2, I cannot believe how much has changed since I last had a III. I think it was fw12 that I had before. 
I’m really enjoying it. Playing it through the Waza TAE is a joy - lots of low end and thump just like my roadster or 5153.


----------



## Deadpool_25

laxu said:


> Agreed. I do understand the architectural challenges of that though, it's why Helix and QC have those multiple path systems so it's up to the end user to manage the DSP allocation, which makes the UI less straightforward. It requires a bit more planning where you put each block to maximize the DSP used.
> 
> I have kinda given up on dual amp presets. The only time I have made it work well is on the Yamaha THR100HD but that's because the unit is built to work with that and is simple enough that it's easy to tweak each channel to work together. On other modelers it's always been a bit of a struggle to find combinations that end up actually sounding better than a single amp rather than just adding complexity.
> 
> Quad Cortex's ability to run effectively multiple full effect setups in a single preset is pretty impressive, I think one of Ola Englund's videos had 4 different paths each with a different amp, cab and a few fx. I tried making that on the Helix and ran out of DSP before I even got close. But ultimately most of us don't need that and the channels feature on the FM3 makes up for a lot.





The Thing Upstairs said:


> Dual amps are ok. I’ve not used them much because I get sounds I like without them.
> 
> I will experiment more in time.
> 
> In the couple of weeks I’ve had my mk2, I cannot believe how much has changed since I last had a III. I think it was fw12 that I had before.
> I’m really enjoying it. Playing it through the Waza TAE is a joy - lots of low end and thump just like my roadster or 5153.



The multiple amp thing definitely has limited use. I’ll admit that a big part of my want stems from being a fan of a few guys who make really good use of multiple amp rigs:
- Adam Jones: VH4 and Plexi with either another VH4 or a Dual Rec 
- Josh Smith: Super Reverb and AC30
- Joe Bonamassa: Fender/Dumble and Marshall
- John Mayer: Dumble and Two Rock

I could definitely get close enough to any of those tones (basically) with a single amp in the FM3. Of course I can’t play like those guys so it’s probably ridiculous anyway. But let’s face it...gear as a hobby can be almost completely separate from playing.


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

Deadpool_25 said:


> The multiple amp thing definitely has limited use. I’ll admit that a big part of my want stems from being a fan of a few guys who make really good use of multiple amp rigs:
> - Adam Jones: VH4 and Plexi with either another VH4 or a Dual Rec
> - Josh Smith: Super Reverb and AC30
> - Joe Bonamassa: Fender/Dumble and Marshall
> - John Mayer: Dumble and Two Rock
> 
> I could definitely get close enough to any of those tones (basically) with a single amp in the FM3. Of course I can’t play like those guys so it’s probably ridiculous anyway. But let’s face it...gear as a hobby can be almost completely separate from playing.



I think the axefx3 is a really good and cost effective place to experiment with dual amps to find the blend you like. 
Or you could take it to the extremes and own loads of amps 

nothing wrong with either approach as long as you are having fun. 

I really should try my amps in a stereo rig with my es8 board but having the III I just can’t be arsed. I’d rather spend what time I have playing than faffing (work/family/playing need to be balanced)


----------



## SamSam

Mathemagician said:


> I dicked around with the hardware for like 5 minutes and then opened FM3 edit. And I have no intention of ever editing on the modeler itself.
> 
> It’s not “unusable” but it is a toughie to justify versus the more understandable edit software.



I've never bothered to use FM3 edit, I find the hardware easy enough to use as is.

I'm not even sure if the QC interface is an improvement or not.

It's simpler and more intuitive, but its slower and I'm comfortable enough with the FM3 where I can set things up fairly quickly to my liking.


----------



## laxu

SamSam said:


> I've never bothered to use FM3 edit, I find the hardware easy enough to use as is.
> 
> I'm not even sure if the QC interface is an improvement or not.
> 
> It's simpler and more intuitive, but its slower and I'm comfortable enough with the FM3 where I can set things up fairly quickly to my liking.



Go try making a preset from scratch with the FM3-Edit. It's just way more intuitive. Yes you can live with the FM3 user interface but it's never a fantastic experience.

Helix is already far better as a hardware user interface and the QC basically takes that and makes it a touchscreen version.


----------



## laxu

Nik_Left_RG said:


> How does it compare to your Helix, sound wise ?



Ok so I compared it to Helix Floor today. I uploaded the same IRs to both and built from scratch the same kind of preset I did for the FM3. I used ML Sound Lab MIKKO exported IRs on both and the amps were a Matchless DC30, Trainwreck Express and a Mark IV.

FM3 is capable of running more amp models and IRs than Helix with the same set of fx (comp, drive, chorus, delay, reverb, trem). Helix runs out of power by the time you have 3 amps and 3 1024 sample IR blocks in a preset. FM3 can also run its cab block with 2 IRs mixed together whereas Helix relies on pre-mixed single ones. The Helix would be able to run two amps in stereo though should you want.

Building the preset was just way, way better on Helix. Adding blocks, moving them around etc is just much faster and easier as things are nicely categorized and easy to move. 

As for editing, the lack of a "go to previous block" feature is really annoying on the FM3. If you jump between say amp and cab block it's having to cycle through the whole damn thing or exit back to grid, go back to amp etc. Editing the Mark IV amp block was also very annoying because the Output EQ page for the graphic EQ is like 6 pages away while it's the 3rd page on Helix. Lack of a "reset this parameter" option is also a bunch of crap. Saving the preset is also this weird "Store -> knob A -> Enter" jump around when on Helix you press Save twice to overwrite the current preset.

When it comes to sound and feel, it's clear that you can't use the exact same settings on both and expect them to sound the same. Which is more accurate, I don't know. But I was able to dial them to sound and feel pretty close. FM3 tended to be brighter and a bit thinner at the same settings copied from Helix. The Trainwreck Express model cleans a bit better on the FM3.

For effects FM3 is better for reverbs, delays are good on both while I prefer Helix drive models. I am surprised the FM3 does not seem to have a Klon type overdrive either despite its popularity. It's by far my favorite drive model on the Helix and works great with my real amps too. In fact so well that I sold my Keeley D&M Drive because the Helix OCD and Minotaur performed exactly the same with the right settings.


----------



## Deadpool_25

@laxu 
I also think the lack of a Klon model is a glaring omission. There was a guy a long time ago on the fractal forum who just went nuts about it. I believe the speculation is that he maybe annoyed Cliff enough that now Cliff won’t put it in there. I dunno if I buy it though. That seems a bit overly stubborn. I mean a lot of people have asked for it and it’s seems crazy to think that “not letting that one dude win” would be more important than all those requests from current customers. Then again, it’s still not in there....idk. 

But a couple of members have built really good K type drive blocks using existing models so it’s not _that_ big a deal. I’d still like to see a K model in there.


----------



## budda

@laxu @Deadpool_25 pressing store twice doesnt save a preset?


----------



## Deadpool_25

budda said:


> @laxu @Deadpool_25 pressing store twice doesnt save a preset?



No


----------



## Deadpool_25

On the Klon thing...

I just saw that in August 2020 Cliff said he’d just ordered a KTR. He said he’s not making any promises because the topology doesn’t match any of their existing topologies but he’ll “see what he can do.”

So it may get in there.


----------



## budda

Deadpool_25 said:


> No



Wild . I can't remember if that worked on the FX8, I'd have to check the manual.


----------



## Deadpool_25

budda said:


> Wild . I can't remember if that worked on the FX8, I'd have to check the manual.



Lol. Yeah I can’t remember either. In the FM3 it’s: Store > knob A > Enter. 

I was messing around yesterday and was on the floor in front of my amps building a preset. It’s across the room from the computer so I wasn’t using FM3 Edit. I built completely from scratch using just the front panel. Ehhh. It’s certainly not as fluid as using FM3 edit, but it’s not _that_ bad imo. 

The most annoying part is actually naming presets and scenes. /shrug


----------



## laxu

budda said:


> @laxu @Deadpool_25 pressing store twice doesnt save a preset?



Nope, but you can press Store and then Enter twice. Just figured that out a few minutes ago. So it's still fairly quick but could just say "press Enter to save" rather than map it to the A knob.


----------



## laxu

Deadpool_25 said:


> @laxu
> I also think the lack of a Klon model is a glaring omission. There was a guy a long time ago on the fractal forum who just went nuts about it. I believe the speculation is that he maybe annoyed Cliff enough that now Cliff won’t put it in there. I dunno if I buy it though. That seems a bit overly stubborn. I mean a lot of people have asked for it and it’s seems crazy to think that “not letting that one dude win” would be more important than all those requests from current customers. Then again, it’s still not in there....idk.
> 
> But a couple of members have built really good K type drive blocks using existing models so it’s not _that_ big a deal. I’d still like to see a K model in there.



I think the Klon is just unique enough as a circuit that it's going to take him time to model it separately. I would not expect Cliff to be petty enough to not add it just because of some obsessive bozo...but stranger things have happened.


----------



## budda

laxu said:


> Nope, but you can press Store and then Enter twice. Just figured that out a few minutes ago. So it's still fairly quick but could just say "press Enter to save" rather than map it to the A knob.



Store enter enter sounds more like the fx8. Store enter enter is a great way to not accidentally overwrite a preset imo.


----------



## broangiel

Deadpool_25 said:


> On the Klon thing...
> 
> I just saw that in August 2020 Cliff said he’d just ordered a KTR. He said he’s not making any promises because the topology doesn’t match any of their existing topologies but he’ll “see what he can do.”
> 
> So it may get in there.


Klon and the Revv Generator are two of the items Cliff has specifically mentioned are on the backlog (with the Klon having a bit of an asterisk). I imagine the development work for Cygnus is the priority at the moment, but I'm very excited for those additions.


----------



## laxu

budda said:


> Store enter enter sounds more like the fx8. Store enter enter is a great way to not accidentally overwrite a preset imo.



Sure, but I have never found myself accidentally saving a preset on my Helix which lets you just hit Save twice. Store - Enter - Enter is fine tho but as with many things Fractal, poorly discoverable.


----------



## budda

laxu said:


> Sure, but I have never found myself accidentally saving a preset on my Helix which lets you just hit Save twice. Store - Enter - Enter is fine tho but as with many things Fractal, poorly discoverable.



What does the manual say?


----------



## laxu

budda said:


> What does the manual say?


It does mention the Enter + Enter thing as the way to go so RTFM, but that doesn't mean you can't help users discover the best way to work by simply saying "Press Enter twice to save to current slot" in the UI itself. This is what user interface discoverability means.


----------



## budda

Im not disagreeing with the defition of user interface discoverability, but this is the first time Im reading about it for a high end in-depth digital device for musicians. I dont even see it mentioned in mac vs windows threads.

If the manual tells you how to do it, and you dont read the manual, that's not on the company y'know? And the time it takes you to click a button twice versus once should be pretty negligible.


----------



## laxu

budda said:


> Im not disagreeing with the defition of user interface discoverability, but this is the first time Im reading about it for a high end in-depth digital device for musicians. I dont even see it mentioned in mac vs windows threads.
> 
> If the manual tells you how to do it, and you dont read the manual, that's not on the company y'know? And the time it takes you to click a button twice versus once should be pretty negligible.



I was mainly complaining because I thought the defacto way to save a preset was Store -> A-knob click -> Enter which is a bit confusing and has you jumping around. That's the way the UI shows me. It's definitely my fault for not reading the manual for the proper way to do it.

Discoverability is an issue with lots of devices. On the Helix I think it would require reading the manual to know that holding a knob will access things like assigning snapshot control to params. Don't even get me started on the pile of crap that is iOS multitasking and split view handling. Now _that's_ undiscoverable and that's from the wealthiest company in the world!


----------



## budda

I still dont know most of what each smartphone I buy can do, but thats mostly because I dont really check


----------



## laxu

So after watching some Leon Todd videos, I have discovered the joy of the pitch follower for changing control positions!

Now _that_ is a cool feature that does not exist on other modelers. I have often struggled a bit getting my 8-string Skervesen's tone to balance well. Either the low strings get a bit too dull or overdriven or the top strings get a bit too bright and thin. Well, with the pitch follower set to adjust bass, middle and presence on the fly I can turn the bass down when playing the lowest strings and turn the presence down when using the high strings so they sound a bit smoother.

The pitch follower does not seem to handle notes as low as the 8ths string so the 8th, 7th and 6th perform about the same but that's an ok compromise. Not sure if it's how I have configured it or a limitation of the pitch detection.

I also tried the virtual capo for downtuning. The one on the Helix is just plain better. The FM3 virtual capo does not track fast enough. I read that pitch detection improvements are coming to the FM3 so I hope that improves this feature. While I would rather use a guitar tuned lower, it's a neat feature to have in a pinch.


----------



## Thrashman

How is saving presets hard on the fm3? Store>enter. Done.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Thrashman said:


> How is saving presets hard on the fm3? Store>enter. Done.



It’s not hard. But you missed a step.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Anyone have an extra EV-2 expression pedal?


----------



## Thrashman

Deadpool_25 said:


> It’s not hard. But you missed a step.


press and hold.


----------



## RevDrucifer

laxu said:


> I think the Klon is just unique enough as a circuit that it's going to take him time to model it separately. I would not expect Cliff to be petty enough to not add it just because of some obsessive bozo...but stranger things have happened.



Hahahah I dunno, Cliff’s got some old school New England blood in him. There’s also going to be a massive headache with adding that in there because you’ll have the boneheads jumping on the forum complaining about choosing that klone instead of their preferred klone and it’ll be a never-ending thread discussing the barely distinguishable traits of a fuckin’ boost pedal. 

I’d leave it out just out of spite for how much controversy and wasted discussion that pedal has created. Even the guy who made the thing thinks it’s ridiculous.


----------



## RevDrucifer

laxu said:


> So after watching some Leon Todd videos, I have discovered the joy of the pitch follower for changing control positions!
> 
> Now _that_ is a cool feature that does not exist on other modelers. I have often struggled a bit getting my 8-string Skervesen's tone to balance well. Either the low strings get a bit too dull or overdriven or the top strings get a bit too bright and thin. Well, with the pitch follower set to adjust bass, middle and presence on the fly I can turn the bass down when playing the lowest strings and turn the presence down when using the high strings so they sound a bit smoother.
> 
> The pitch follower does not seem to handle notes as low as the 8ths string so the 8th, 7th and 6th perform about the same but that's an ok compromise. Not sure if it's how I have configured it or a limitation of the pitch detection.
> 
> I also tried the virtual capo for downtuning. The one on the Helix is just plain better. The FM3 virtual capo does not track fast enough. I read that pitch detection improvements are coming to the FM3 so I hope that improves this feature. While I would rather use a guitar tuned lower, it's a neat feature to have in a pinch.



I don’t know if it’s going to make it to the Cygnus FM3 update, but they’ve been working on porting that over to the FM3 for a little while now. I just tracked bass using it in the III last night and even using a distorted bass tone, it tracked flawlessly. I haven’t touched my drop-B guitar since that pitch block update a few months back.


----------



## cardinal

Virtual Capo in the III is pretty good. Dropping the tuning on an 8-string sounds probably better than my actual 9 string guitar. It struggles a bit to keep up with detuning a 5-string bass, but IME everything does.


----------



## Masoo2

cardinal said:


> Virtual Capo in the III is pretty good. Dropping the tuning on an 8-string sounds probably better than my actual 9 string guitar. It struggles a bit to keep up with detuning a 5-string bass, but IME everything does.


Not super well versed on the minute details of Fractal stuff, is there a difference between virtual capo and the normal pitch shifter? Or are they one in the same?


----------



## budda

Masoo2 said:


> Not super well versed on the minute details of Fractal stuff, is there a difference between virtual capo and the normal pitch shifter? Or are they one in the same?



Virtual capo is a type in the pitch block.


----------



## cardinal

Masoo2 said:


> Not super well versed on the minute details of Fractal stuff, is there a difference between virtual capo and the normal pitch shifter? Or are they one in the same?



Yeah it's an option in the pitch block that can just move everything by whatever interval. Dropping everything by even a 5th works reasonably well with an overdriven 8-string guitar. Less so with clean sounds or 5-string bass, but it's passable.


----------



## Thrashman

On the Klon topic... It is VASTLY different to other pedals both tonally and feel wise, so I understand Cliff needing more time to get it right. 

Before people jump on the snake oil hate train - yes I do own a silver Klon and the Klon KTR (which is also made by Bill and sounds/feels exactly like the OG's) and feel like I can speak out about this after trying to find a cheaper pedal to do the same job for a while... Tumnus is close enough but still too rigid in the mids if you nitpick.


----------



## Thrashman

This isn't an official FM3 thread but close enough as lots of users here..


.. 3.03 beta 1 is now live with updates to the Drive block and added drives to be on par with the Axe III.. All I have to say is holy fucking shit this sounds absolutely bonkers good with UltraRes Cab IR's now being available.

.. And we're not even on Cygnus yet. Being a Fractal user is gooooooooood.


----------



## laxu

On 3.03 the drives are more in line with the quality of the Helix drive models. I still like the ones on the Helix better because you can use them exactly like the real pedal. Fractal's approach is "well this part of the pedal exists elsewhere so build your own damn full pedal from multiple things" so for example the Horizon Precision Drive gate is not on the Drive block but needs to be added as its own block or you need to use two Drive blocks and various models to get the full King of Tone feature set.

Ultrares is about the same as it was on the Axe-Fx 2, a small difference.

I had some bugs on the 3.03 beta 1, Input 2 had digital artifacts and left footswitch became unresponsive until restart. Reinstalled the 3.02 firmware, verified the issues were gone, installed 3.03 beta on top of that and so far haven't seen the issues again.

When the Cygnus update arrives I'll probably reset the whole damn thing to default and start from scratch considering how few presets I have.


----------



## cardinal

laxu said:


> On 3.03 the drives are more in line with the quality of the Helix drive models. I still like the ones on the Helix better because you can use them exactly like the real pedal. Fractal's approach is "well this part of the pedal exists elsewhere so build your own damn full pedal from multiple things" so for example the Horizon Precision Drive gate is not on the Drive block but needs to be added as its own block or you need to use two Drive blocks and various models to get the full King of Tone feature set.
> 
> Ultrares is about the same as it was on the Axe-Fx 2, a small difference.
> 
> I had some bugs on the 3.03 beta 1, Input 2 had digital artifacts and left footswitch became unresponsive until restart. Reinstalled the 3.02 firmware, verified the issues were gone, installed 3.03 beta on top of that and so far haven't seen the issues again.
> 
> When the Cygnus update arrives I'll probably reset the whole damn thing to default and start from scratch considering how few presets I have.



Cygnus has so much extra bass and rumble you'll essentially need to start from scratch anyway. 

I'm starting to get disillusioned with this thing.


----------



## broangiel

cardinal said:


> Cygnus has so much extra bass and rumble you'll essentially need to start from scratch anyway.
> 
> I'm starting to get disillusioned with this thing.


Then on the other end of the spectrum, there’s a guy on the Axe forum with a thread about how Cygnus made all his presets sound thin and flat. 

you can always stay on fw15, adjust your presets, or sell it and move on. I haven’t found either of those observations to be true in my use case, but perception is truth and all.


----------



## cardinal

broangiel said:


> Then on the other end of the spectrum, there’s a guy on the Axe forum with a thread about how Cygnus made all his presets sound thin and flat.
> 
> you can always stay on fw15, adjust your presets, or sell it and move on. I haven’t found either of those observations to be true in my use case, but perception is truth and all.



In the end it sounds "fine" with any of the firmwares. In the end I think I'm just getting frustrated with the Fractal in the same way that I get frustrated with any real amp that is not an old Marshall 2204. 

The Brit 800 sim always sounds fine. I got the Fractal to try to avoid buying other amps and selling them a few months later when I realize I just don't like them. 

Surprise surprise after a few weeks I'm finding that no amount of knob twirling makes me truly like any of the sims other than the Brit 800 sim. So I should just use that one (or just the actual Marshall) and only fire up the other sims when I get really bored.


----------



## broangiel

cardinal said:


> In the end it sounds "fine" with any of the firmwares. In the end I think I'm just getting frustrated with the Fractal in the same way that I get frustrated with any real amp that is not an old Marshall 2204.
> 
> The Brit 800 sim always sounds fine. I got the Fractal to try to avoid buying other amps and selling them a few months later when I realize I just don't like them.
> 
> Surprise surprise after a few weeks I'm finding that no amount of knob twirling makes me truly like any of the sims other than the Brit 800 sim. So I should just use that one (or just the actual Marshall) and only fire up the other sims when I get really bored.


Interesting. I don’t usually advocate for tweaking the advanced parameters, but I wonder if you’d do well with some additional input filtering. Leon did a video with a Friedman recently where he cranked the input high pass filter too 500Hz, IIRC. Have you played with anything like that? That may only be helpful if the muddy/flubby stuff is bothering you most of all. I don’t have any recommendation for trying to like sounds you don’t like


----------



## cardinal

broangiel said:


> Interesting. I don’t usually advocate for tweaking the advanced parameters, but I wonder if you’d do well with some additional input filtering. Leon did a video with a Friedman recently where he cranked the input high pass filter too 500Hz, IIRC. Have you played with anything like that? That may only be helpful if the muddy/flubby stuff is bothering you most of all. I don’t have any recommendation for trying to like sounds you don’t like



Yeah, I'd figured out that I needed the input low cut to a pretty substantial frequency to reduce rumble from my cab (I use the Axe into a 4x12). There is still a lot of low end, even with the master volumes set super low (master volumes set too high causes a terrible woofy low end IME). Seems ridiculous but it is what it is.


----------



## c7spheres

cardinal said:


> Cygnus has so much extra bass and rumble you'll essentially need to start from scratch anyway.
> 
> I'm starting to get disillusioned with this thing.



I've been reading on the Fractal forum a little bit to keep upon Cygnus updates (I don't one a Fractal yet) and a lot of people seem a bit surprised and to have an initial impresion of it being to much bass or boomy or whatever. From an outsider perspective that's a good thing to me because that's how a real amp sounds initially until you dial it in. 
- It sounds like you're gonna have to build what you want from scratch like you said in order to get what you're after. - Although I don't own one yet all I could say is maybe at first treat it like a real studio signal chain. (not that you're not or anything) . I keep seeing people doing nonsensical things when it comes to signal chains and gain staging etc. like putting things after cab blocks that don't normally go there. 
- If you're already going basic for your foundation tone and not getting what you want it's probably the IR, the gain staging, signal chain, or maybe it's just not your thing if you are doing everything right. All I'm saying is keep a simple and "normal" approach at first if you haven't already tried that. 
- Sounds to me like you know what you're doing and more than likely it's the IR or some setting that's getting in the way. If it's on most or every preset though it's more than likely a gain staging or more global issue happening.


----------



## laxu

cardinal said:


> In the end it sounds "fine" with any of the firmwares. In the end I think I'm just getting frustrated with the Fractal in the same way that I get frustrated with any real amp that is not an old Marshall 2204.
> 
> The Brit 800 sim always sounds fine. I got the Fractal to try to avoid buying other amps and selling them a few months later when I realize I just don't like them.
> 
> Surprise surprise after a few weeks I'm finding that no amount of knob twirling makes me truly like any of the sims other than the Brit 800 sim. So I should just use that one (or just the actual Marshall) and only fire up the other sims when I get really bored.



While my go-to sound is basically Fender cleans, Marshall overdrive which is delivered to perfection by my Bogner Goldfinger 45 Superlead, I still like messing around with other amps and own a Vox flavored Victory VC35 as well. I actually have the modelers for similar reasons so that I don't end up with a huge pile of amps.

On the FM3 I've found so many cool sounds. I can dial the Bogner Shiva model to sound somewhat similar to my Goldfinger so that's covered, but I've had a ton of fun exploring amps like the Nuclear Tone (Swart Atomic Space Tone), the Mesa Mark IV model, the Trainwreck Express or the Dumble. Stuff that I would never buy as a real amp because they're not my thing.

If you are getting a ton of low end rumble into a real cab, I'd try using the global EQ to cut it. I use it for rudimentary room correction because at home I have a hefty 130 Hz boost that is pretty annoying unless taken out.


----------



## budda

@cardinal no one's forcing you to use any other amp sim. Park it on the 800 - no rule against it.


----------



## cardinal

budda said:


> @cardinal no one's forcing you to use any other amp sim. Park it on the 800 - no rule against it.



This is the answer. I went back and forth just now several times between Brit 800 and the Marshall, and really the Fractal is awesome (with some low cut rolled up). I'm super frustrated because I can't get happy for more than a song or two with any of the other sims. But that's how it's been with the real amps too.

So really I'm just venting. First world problems to be so happy with one amp/sim that everything sounds like crap


----------



## Shask

cardinal said:


> This is the answer. I went back and forth just now several times between Brit 800 and the Marshall, and really the Fractal is awesome (with some low cut rolled up). I'm super frustrated because I can't get happy for more than a song or two with any of the other sims. But that's how it's been with the real amps too.
> 
> So really I'm just venting. First world problems to be so happy with one amp/sim that everything sounds like crap


That is kind of how I am with my Axe II. I pretty much always used the 5153 model, so I just got a 5150 III 50W, and I have been happy just using the amp instead. Sometimes I use the Axe in the loop for effects.


----------



## Shask

broangiel said:


> Then on the other end of the spectrum, there’s a guy on the Axe forum with a thread about how Cygnus made all his presets sound thin and flat.
> 
> you can always stay on fw15, adjust your presets, or sell it and move on. I haven’t found either of those observations to be true in my use case, but perception is truth and all.


I was reading about that, and it seems to be related to them removing the dynamic depth control.

That seems like a shame. On my Axe II I crank that knob constantly.


----------



## Mourguitars

Thrashman said:


> This isn't an official FM3 thread but close enough as lots of users here..
> 
> 
> .. 3.03 beta 1 is now live with updates to the Drive block and added drives to be on par with the Axe III.. All I have to say is holy fucking shit this sounds absolutely bonkers good with UltraRes Cab IR's now being available.
> 
> .. And we're not even on Cygnus yet. Being a Fractal user is gooooooooood.



All my Fractal buddys called about the update...but im messing with my rack and tube amps this week...work slowed down some

On the FM3 did the new update increase the CPU ?

How does the UltraRes IR's sound ?

Its storming here so power is flickering ....ill update maybe tonight , havent been giving the FM3 no love lately., to much gear to play with , buy ect..lol.....these updates sound pretty sweet tho !

Mike


----------



## cardinal

Shask said:


> That is kind of how I am with my Axe II. I pretty much always used the 5153 model, so I just got a 5150 III 50W, and I have been happy just using the amp instead. Sometimes I use the Axe in the loop for effects.



Yeah, I'm going the other direction. My Marshall is 40 years old, and I hate powering it up if I'm just going to futz around on it for a few minutes here and there, but sometimes that's all the time I've got. So the Fractal is nice to just flip on and off without worrying about it. Plus the Marshall has no FX loop while the Axe can run a bunch of effects which are fun to goof around with. 

The other sims are cool for some things. Recto1 sounds great with some grunge stuff and Tool songs (and guilty-pleasure Nu Metal). The SLO has its thing for when I want to go full hair metal. Etc etc. But the 2204/Brit 800 is the only thing I've used that just works for all of it and doesn't start to annoy me after a bit.


----------



## Mathemagician

cardinal said:


> In the end it sounds "fine" with any of the firmwares. In the end I think I'm just getting frustrated with the Fractal in the same way that I get frustrated with any real amp that is not an old Marshall 2204.
> 
> The Brit 800 sim always sounds fine. I got the Fractal to try to avoid buying other amps and selling them a few months later when I realize I just don't like them.
> 
> Surprise surprise after a few weeks I'm finding that no amount of knob twirling makes me truly like any of the sims other than the Brit 800 sim. So I should just use that one (or just the actual Marshall) and only fire up the other sims when I get really bored.



We grant you membership into the “it’s basically just 7 5150’s in a box” club. Lol.


----------



## Thrashman

No CPU increase, less actually unless you use UltraRes cabs which add a few percent - worth it though!


----------



## Thrashman

I mean re the low end or thin/harshness you should tweak the low and highcut in the cab section anyway as no guitar cab really puts out any frequencies past like 11k realistically.. Or below 80.


----------



## cardinal

budda said:


> @cardinal no one's forcing you to use any other amp sim. Park it on the 800 - no rule against it.



Took this to the next level to rid myself of the temptation. Set up my main FC12 layout to just be the 2204 and to replicate my old-school pedal boards of yore.

Boost with an SD-1 mostly; RAT to be a bit more aggressive, an a PEQ just maxed out boosting around 650 Hz to turn it into a flame thrower.

Cant get to the other amp sims.


----------



## budda

cardinal said:


> Took this to the next level to rid myself of the temptation. Set up my main FC12 layout to just be the 2204 and to replicate my old-school pedal boards of yore.
> 
> Boost with an SD-1 mostly; RAT to be a bit more aggressive, an a PEQ just maxed out boosting around 650 Hz to turn it into a flame thrower.



Dont forget your reverb and delay for leads


----------



## cardinal

budda said:


> Dont forget your reverb and delay for leads



Yeah, I filled the thing with reverb, delay, univibe, virtual capo, tap tempo, etc.


----------



## budda

cardinal said:


> Yeah, I filled the thing with reverb, delay, univibe, virtual capo, tap tempo, etc.



No fc/controller but my gain presets are usually amp, cab, delay and reverb


----------



## cardinal

budda said:


> No fc/controller but my gain presets are usually amp, cab, delay and reverb



Yeah I practically never actually use any of that stuff haha. Just needed to fill up the footswitch slots with something.


----------



## budda

cardinal said:


> Yeah I practically never actually use any of that stuff haha. Just needed to fill up the footswitch slots with something.



Did you though?


----------



## cardinal

budda said:


> Did you though?



1: 2204 (or JTM 45 for clean)
2: Cab1
3: Detune
4: Delay
5: Reverb
6: Tap tempo
7: SD-1
8: RAT
9: PEQ
10: Tremolo
11: Chorus
12: Univibe

I never use most of that stuff but maybe now since I apparently can't resist stepping on these foot switches.


----------



## Deadpool_25

I have an FC6 but am now working on a pedalboard that doesn’t use it (just for size). We’ll see how that works out.



Thrashman said:


> This isn't an official FM3 thread...



It pretty much is lol. I think it lasted about 1 page as a NGD before it evolved, maybe less


----------



## Deadpool_25

I was just messing around again with 4CM with the FM3 and Stealth. Actually it was 5CM because I was running stereo out of the FM3 into the FX return of both the Stealth and the EL34. 

You guys know how much I love the Stealth and that hasn’t changed but damn the FM3 into the FX loops like that is just nuts. 

I set up a patch that used the Stealth preamp and another that uses an amp model on the FM3 straight into the Fx return. I disabled cabinet modeling (of course) but I did _not_ disable power amp modeling.

I really don’t think I need to run 4CM anymore; I can just run the FM3 preamps. The feel is right there or can be dialed in pretty easily, and the versatility is obviously crazy with all the different amp options. Additionally there’s so much tonal control in the FM3. Aside from having _all_ the basic tone controls (even if they weren’t preset on the real amp) you have input and output EQ available right in the amp block—you can give any amp a Mesa-Mark-style graphic EQ. And that’s not even really getting into the advanced parameters.

Listening through the monitors is great. Really it is. But running through the Fx loop with a bit of volume and using 4CM to quickly switch back and forth between using the real amp preamp and the FM3 preamp....just...yes.


----------



## budda

@Deadpool_25 do you run the monitors at the same volume as the stealth?


----------



## soul_lip_mike

cardinal said:


> In the end it sounds "fine" with any of the firmwares. In the end I think I'm just getting frustrated with the Fractal in the same way that I get frustrated with any real amp that is not an old Marshall 2204.
> 
> The Brit 800 sim always sounds fine. I got the Fractal to try to avoid buying other amps and selling them a few months later when I realize I just don't like them.
> 
> Surprise surprise after a few weeks I'm finding that no amount of knob twirling makes me truly like any of the sims other than the Brit 800 sim. So I should just use that one (or just the actual Marshall) and only fire up the other sims when I get really bored.



The austin buddy gold pack has a ton of really well put together presets. I think that may change your mind.


----------



## Deadpool_25

budda said:


> @Deadpool_25 do you run the monitors at the same volume as the stealth?



I guess the answer is “it depends.” 

I don’t always run anything at consistent volumes. Sometimes higher sometimes lower no matter what I’m running through. If we are talking about the loudest I’ve had either of them, then no.


----------



## budda

Deadpool_25 said:


> I guess the answer is “it depends.”
> 
> I don’t always run anything at consistent volumes. Sometimes higher sometimes lower no matter what I’m running through. If we are talking about the loudest I’ve had either of them, then no.



In other words, is the volume that brings a smile on stealth+fm3 the same as fm3 + monitors usually?


----------



## Deadpool_25

budda said:


> In other words, is the volume that brings a smile on stealth+fm3 the same as fm3 + monitors usually?



No I don’t think so. Or at least that’s an oversimplification. I believe it’s the sound/feel of the real cab in the room being pushed by some power tubes vs the sound/feel of a mic’d cab.


----------



## Thrashman

It's speaker distortion/speakers working at high volume.


----------



## budda

Thrashman said:


> It's speaker distortion/speakers working at high volume.



The axe fx iii models that


----------



## Thrashman

budda said:


> The axe fx iii models that


And the FM3 does too if not soon I believe!! Yay!!!!

I am so happy with the drive update that Cygnus would probably give me a stroke haha


----------



## laxu

It's really a combination of having a very directional cab on the floor played at loud volume, having a big high end loss from listening to it off axis usually, how our ears perceive that loud volume and maybe how a tube poweramp interacts with the speaker (even if the modeler tries to model this interaction).

I can get pretty satisfying tones blasting my Genelec studio monitors (which go down to about 44 Hz so they definitely can cover the whole range of guitar) but it's still different from my real guitar cabs.


----------



## budda

Im not saying it's not different, Im saying it's equally enjoyable. 

@laxu you messed with speaker compression and impedance curves yet?


----------



## laxu

budda said:


> Im not saying it's not different, Im saying it's equally enjoyable.
> 
> @laxu you messed with speaker compression and impedance curves yet?



I was actually supposed to mess with the impedance curves today but things got in the way. I've messed with getting the most out of headphone use so using the gain enhancer, cab block proximity effect and room reflections stuff and an enhancer block at the end of the chain all do make things bigger. The gain enhancer is actually really cool because it makes it feel a bit more like when you have that feedback loop with your guitar and speakers.


----------



## RevDrucifer

laxu said:


> I was actually supposed to mess with the impedance curves today but things got in the way. I've messed with getting the most out of headphone use so using the gain enhancer, cab block proximity effect and room reflections stuff and an enhancer block at the end of the chain all do make things bigger. The gain enhancer is actually really cool because it makes it feel a bit more like when you have that feedback loop with your guitar and speakers.



Oh dude, the speaker impedance curve is one of my favorite areas to tweak and I consider it 2nd most important after the Authentic/Ideal menus. 

Between the highs and lows, every ‘issue’ can be sorted out on the Speaker page, with the added bonus of making a Pignose sound like an Ampeg 8x10.


----------



## Kyle Jordan

Any of you FM3 owners ever run your units in to a computer running Torpedo Wall Of Sound? I’m actually floored by the IRs and options to tweak them in my Axe FX III, but there are a few WOS cabs I dearly love. 

How do you run your setups? I’m thinking have one out of the Axe going to my headphones and a second out going to my computer and DAW to record. Have an internal IR on the headphone out, and have the out to the computer being shunted off after the amp block. Then adding WOS to the track.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Kyle Jordan said:


> Any of you FM3 owners ever run your units in to a computer running Torpedo Wall Of Sound? I’m actually floored by the IRs and options to tweak them in my Axe FX III, but there are a few WOS cabs I dearly love.
> 
> How do you run your setups? I’m thinking have one out of the Axe going to my headphones and a second out going to my computer and DAW to record. Have an internal IR on the headphone out, and have the out to the computer being shunted off after the amp block. Then adding WOS to the track.



Thats the beauty of a great modeler—so many ways to route.


----------



## MrWulf

between a custom amp, FM3 + KSR Power Amp, or Synergy/Randall hybrid, the FM3 option is looking increasingly good. I want to see how the new update will work tho


----------



## budda

MrWulf said:


> between a custom amp, FM3 + KSR Power Amp, or Synergy/Randall hybrid, the FM3 option is looking increasingly good. I want to see how the new update will work tho



What exactly do you mean by "how it will work"?


----------



## broangiel

Kyle Jordan said:


> Any of you FM3 owners ever run your units in to a computer running Torpedo Wall Of Sound? I’m actually floored by the IRs and options to tweak them in my Axe FX III, but there are a few WOS cabs I dearly love.
> 
> How do you run your setups? I’m thinking have one out of the Axe going to my headphones and a second out going to my computer and DAW to record. Have an internal IR on the headphone out, and have the out to the computer being shunted off after the amp block. Then adding WOS to the track.


Capture an IR of your favorite WOS presets then use them in your Axe.


Edit: using the IR Capture tool in the Axe is pretty self-explanatory if you use Axe-Edit. It tells you how to hook everything up. You would just bypass the mic.


----------



## MrWulf

budda said:


> What exactly do you mean by "how it will work"?



I guess I want to see how ppl like it first haha.


----------



## budda

MrWulf said:


> I guess I want to see how ppl like it first haha.



Who cares? Roll back if its not doing what you want . 

Generally though, most users prefer the update unless a function they rely on (modifier, effect type) is changed in a way they dislike.


----------



## Deadpool_25

MrWulf said:


> I guess I want to see how ppl like it first haha.



Some people will be annoyed that the have to re-dial in all their presets which is probable because Cygnus will change the way the amps sound. 

But the reviews from most AxeFX III users seems very positive so I am confident we can expect the same when Cygnus gets to the FM3.

It’s a great option, yes.


----------



## Kyle Jordan

broangiel said:


> Capture an IR of your favorite WOS presets then use them in your Axe.
> 
> 
> Edit: using the IR Capture tool in the Axe is pretty self-explanatory if you use Axe-Edit. It tells you how to hook everything up. You would just bypass the mic.



Awesome idea! I hadn't even thought about that. Thank you.


----------



## broangiel

Kyle Jordan said:


> Awesome idea! I hadn't even thought about that. Thank you.


You could probably tone match it too. I think Jason Scott on the Fractal Forum discusses this in a few of his posts. I’m less familiar with that approach.


----------



## cardinal

Woot rediscovering boosting with PEQs. Turns my beloved Brit 800 sim into a fire breathing metal monster.

Use the shelving filters on the ends to cut lows and highs, then boost the ever-living-hell out of the midrange, and pick a frequency around 600-650 Hz to give a little spike to add some "character." Loving it.

Similar to how the VFE Standout does its thing, but I thought the Standout sounded a bit bland. Having the extra control to spike the midrange I think gives the benefits of the Standout with some of the character from using a more "voiced" OD pedal.


----------



## Breeding The Spawn

Decided to get the FM3! I'm keeping my AX8 for a good while.. Haven't had too much time to dive into the FM3 edit, but I couldn't figure out why the momentary switches for effects wouldn't work..


----------



## 4Eyes

laxu said:


> It's really a combination of having a very directional cab on the floor played at loud volume, having a big high end loss from listening to it off axis usually, how our ears perceive that loud volume and maybe how a tube poweramp interacts with the speaker (even if the modeler tries to model this interaction).
> 
> I can get pretty satisfying tones blasting my Genelec studio monitors (which go down to about 44 Hz so they definitely can cover the whole range of guitar) but it's still different from my real guitar cabs.


I have found out that combining well known sm57 for bite with some sort of LDC or ribbon mic can help you get you close to that "standing next to the guitar cab" sound. Good monitors that go low enough, or smaller with a sub, will help, too.


----------



## laxu

4Eyes said:


> I have found out that combining well known sm57 for bite with some sort of LDC or ribbon mic can help you get you close to that "standing next to the guitar cab" sound. Good monitors that go low enough, or smaller with a sub, will help, too.


I do the same thing but it's still not quite the same.


----------



## budda

laxu said:


> I do the same thing but it's still not quite the same.



Turn up.


----------



## laxu

budda said:


> Turn up.


Still not the same thing. Even if I set my studio monitors vs guitar speakers at the same volume with a decibel meter there is a difference in how they sound.


----------



## budda

laxu said:


> Still not the same thing. Even if I set my studio monitors vs guitar speakers at the same volume with a decibel meter there is a difference in how they sound.



I should clarify: turn up so that you are surrounded by the sound of your guitar and enjoying the experience instead of worrying if it sounds just like some other setup .


----------



## 4Eyes

I know what @laxu means, that's why I wrote it'll get you close to that. but there is big BUT when comparing mic'ed cab vs "cab in the room" sounds. while the first is consistent no matter what, with the second it depends where the cab is and where you stand and difference can be drastic when moving yourself couple of cm/inches away from the sweet spot. 

good mic blend, volume up and I think that nobody will worry about guitar cab not pumping air into their feet


----------



## Kyle Jordan

Since this is a bit of the catch all Fractal thread, I’ll post here. 

Going in to my purchase, the deep parameters in the Amp Block were my second main reason for purchasing. After owning the III now for a bit and getting ready to update to Cygnus, I VASTLY underestimated what all of these deep parameters here and in the Cab Block can do. Many are quite subtle, but all combined and in concert with tonestack swapping and tweaking, you can literally create a custom virtual amp. Just pick what gives you the most desirable characteristics to start with. I already got a tone I’d been chasing for a very long time, but there is even more going on. I’ve fallen in love with the Rectifier again thanks to this box because I can make my ideal version basically. Plus the FAS Moderns are great for this too. Seems like part of me has been chasing a modded Recto since around when I first played one 23 years ago. Kind of giddy with all of this goodness. 

Honestly, I planned on buying a few heads to go along with the III in the future, but I really don’t know if I can can back to not having this type of ability to tweak again. Even with tones and amp sims I’m not wild about, I can usually deep dive and pull out something I really enjoy. 

I may shift towards getting a great tube poweramp to cover the “real” amp/in the room stuff, and then concentrate on cabs, speakers, and mics for making my own IRs.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Kyle Jordan said:


> Since this is a bit of the catch all Fractal thread, I’ll post here.
> 
> Going in to my purchase, the deep parameters in the Amp Block were my second main reason for purchasing. After owning the III now for a bit and getting ready to update to Cygnus, I VASTLY underestimated what all of these deep parameters here and in the Cab Block can do. Many are quite subtle, but all combined and in concert with tonestack swapping and tweaking, you can literally create a custom virtual amp. Just pick what gives you the most desirable characteristics to start with. I already got a tone I’d been chasing for a very long time, but there is even more going on. I’ve fallen in love with the Rectifier again thanks to this box because I can make my ideal version basically. Plus the FAS Moderns are great for this too. Seems like part of me has been chasing a modded Recto since around when I first played one 23 years ago. Kind of giddy with all of this goodness.
> 
> Honestly, I planned on buying a few heads to go along with the III in the future, but I really don’t know if I can can back to not having this type of ability to tweak again. Even with tones and amp sims I’m not wild about, I can usually deep dive and pull out something I really enjoy.
> 
> I may shift towards getting a great tube poweramp to cover the “real” amp/in the room stuff, and then concentrate on cabs, speakers, and mics for making my own IRs.



Yeah all the extra parameters used to be a bit overwhelming. And occasionally Cliff would post something on the Fractal forum about a certain parameter and I couldn’t help but go try it. I seem to have gotten past that though and only go digging around in those parameters when I really feel a need to. 

With Ares on my FM3 I haven’t really needed to get too deep except when I was seeing if I could dial in a tone that sounded/and felt like my California Tweed’s clean (didn’t quite nail it but the tone I got was at least as good, just a touch different). Even then, outside of the Ideal page, I really only messed with some stuff on the EQ page in the amp block.


----------



## cardinal

Yeah, Cliff mentioned that the Cygnus Recto and 5150 sims are biased a bit hotter than the stock amps and said what would be the stock value, so I've played with that. 

Also adjusting the depth frequency is useful. I often like pulling it up to 120hz, though in the end I leave it in the stock position just so that it supposedly matches the actual amp.


----------



## Thrashman

Another cool thing is to put the slo100 power section on a recto preamp.. Like the old rev C's back in the days that used soldano transformers. Sounds pretty good to me!


----------



## Elric

Thrashman said:


> Another cool thing is to put the slo100 power section on a recto preamp.. Like the old rev C's back in the days that used soldano transformers. Sounds pretty good to me!


How is that done? The Fractal devices do not allow the user to swap preamps and power amps between virtual devices, AFAIK.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Elric said:


> How is that done? The Fractal devices do not allow the user to swap preamps and power amps between virtual devices, AFAIK.



I think that’s referencing the tone stack type on the Ideal page. So you could use a SLO model and use the recto tone stack.


----------



## Elric

Deadpool_25 said:


> I think that’s referencing the tone stack type on the Ideal page. So you could use a SLO model and use the recto tone stack.


Yeah, I was aware of that. It can be fun to play around with for sure. Tone stack is not the same as mix and matching pre/power amps but it is cool. Wish FAS would make a power amp only sim but Cliff has straight up said he wouldn’t do it because it might expose some stuff to reverse engineering.


----------



## budda

The tone stack swap thing seems to be a lot more of a preamp shift vs an eq shift, but I am far from expert on the subject. Its something I havent really messed with, but apparently turns many a guitar amp into a great bass amp!


----------



## RevDrucifer

Kyle Jordan said:


> Since this is a bit of the catch all Fractal thread, I’ll post here.
> 
> Going in to my purchase, the deep parameters in the Amp Block were my second main reason for purchasing. After owning the III now for a bit and getting ready to update to Cygnus, I VASTLY underestimated what all of these deep parameters here and in the Cab Block can do. Many are quite subtle, but all combined and in concert with tonestack swapping and tweaking, you can literally create a custom virtual amp. Just pick what gives you the most desirable characteristics to start with. I already got a tone I’d been chasing for a very long time, but there is even more going on. I’ve fallen in love with the Rectifier again thanks to this box because I can make my ideal version basically. Plus the FAS Moderns are great for this too. Seems like part of me has been chasing a modded Recto since around when I first played one 23 years ago. Kind of giddy with all of this goodness.
> 
> Honestly, I planned on buying a few heads to go along with the III in the future, but I really don’t know if I can can back to not having this type of ability to tweak again. Even with tones and amp sims I’m not wild about, I can usually deep dive and pull out something I really enjoy.
> 
> I may shift towards getting a great tube poweramp to cover the “real” amp/in the room stuff, and then concentrate on cabs, speakers, and mics for making my own IRs.




This is precisely what turned me into an unashamed fanboy. It’s not that I have golden ears or any shit like that, but having the ability to go in and tweak _every _aspect of a guitar tone is a dream come true for me. Not sagging enough? Tweak it. Sagging too much? Tweak it? Marshall doesn’t sound enough like a Mesa? Change the Impedance Curve, Mesa’s too thumpy? Tweak it. 

The more I discuss modelers with other people, the more I realize that there’s practically a hard split down the middle of people who don’t like tweaking and want to plug in and play and people who love the tweaking aspect of it. Fractal’s often get cited for being hard to program, but in the grand scheme of guitar players spending years developing their tone, it seems like a really silly complaint. 

While there’s certainly some fun to be had trying all the physical pieces out, I’m far too pragmatic for that and just want to get to the tone.


----------



## budda

My favourite part is that fractal can be plug and play. Just gotta build your signal chain first (similar to hooking up your amp to cab, board to amp, power to both).


----------



## cwhitey2

budda said:


> My favourite part is that fractal can be plug and play. Just gotta build your signal chain first (similar to hooking up your amp to cab, board to amp, power to both).


I was shocked at how good everything sounds with almost zero tweaking.

I literally have never gone into 'super edit' mode of my patch's. Everything just sounds awesome. The only thing I really play with is the cab selection.


----------



## laxu

I gotta say, even with the 3.03 firmware I am really not loving the drive models. I get great sounds easily with the drive models in my Helix but struggle a lot more with the FM3. It's so often that I engage the drive block and it doesn't improve the sound in a way I'd like. Seems just using a suitable amp model always gives better results for me.


----------



## Deadpool_25

laxu said:


> I gotta say, even with the 3.03 firmware I am really not loving the drive models. I get great sounds easily with the drive models in my Helix but struggle a lot more with the FM3. It's so often that I engage the drive block and it doesn't improve the sound in a way I'd like. Seems just using a suitable amp model always gives better results for me.




Nothing wrong with that. A lot of folks like it but as with anything subjective, there will also be those who don’t.


----------



## Elric

budda said:


> The tone stack swap thing seems to be a lot more of a preamp shift vs an eq shift, but I am far from expert on the subject. Its something I havent really messed with, but apparently turns many a guitar amp into a great bass amp!


Cool to know maybe there is more there than I thought. Might be a fun thing to mess with over the weekend or something...


----------



## laxu

Deadpool_25 said:


> Nothing wrong with that. A lot of folks like it but as with anything subjective, there will also be those who don’t.



Yeah I'm just surprised because generally I like most things Fractal does in the sound department.


----------



## Deadpool_25

laxu said:


> Yeah I'm just surprised because generally I like most things Fractal does in the sound department.



Do you have and like any of the real pedals it models? Might be worth throwing one in front of the FM3 and see if it sounds significantly different.


----------



## cardinal

The Fractal OD pedals are hit or miss. The SD1 and 808 sound right to me but have more output available than the real pedals I have (not really an issue, of course, just turn them down if you want). 

The RAT pedal seems not quite right. Gets a bit stringy or thin, which is not like mine. 

The B7K is just awful, and Fractal says they are working on redoing it. 

I'm not really familiar with any of the others, so haven't spent time with them.


----------



## laxu

Deadpool_25 said:


> Do you have and like any of the real pedals it models? Might be worth throwing one in front of the FM3 and see if it sounds significantly different.



Unfortunately no. I sold all I had because the Helix did such a good job replicating them.

I should also try how the Fractal drives fare into a real amp.


----------



## RevDrucifer

The only two presets I’m not using drives for boosts are my EJ and Gilmour presets, where I’m using Tube Drivers, Face Fuzz and Pi Fuzz, I LOVE the Tube Drivers, those are killer....the Blues Overdrive or whatever it’s called is pretty great as well. With some tweaking the Fuzz Face and Pi Fuzz can get where I want them to go, there’s some cool air around the notes like you’d expect from a fuzz, but trying to nail Gilmour’s Pulse tones isn’t easy. 

Unless there’s a specific reason I have not to, like trying to recreate an existing analog rig, I’ll get all my distortion from the amps. From edge of breakup to full on high gain, there are plenty of amps to get everything covered and I never even really thought about trying to get it from a pedal.


----------



## laxu

RevDrucifer said:


> The only two presets I’m not using drives for boosts are my EJ and Gilmour presets, where I’m using Tube Drivers, Face Fuzz and Pi Fuzz, I LOVE the Tube Drivers, those are killer....the Blues Overdrive or whatever it’s called is pretty great as well. With some tweaking the Fuzz Face and Pi Fuzz can get where I want them to go, there’s some cool air around the notes like you’d expect from a fuzz, but trying to nail Gilmour’s Pulse tones isn’t easy.
> 
> Unless there’s a specific reason I have not to, like trying to recreate an existing analog rig, I’ll get all my distortion from the amps. From edge of breakup to full on high gain, there are plenty of amps to get everything covered and I never even really thought about trying to get it from a pedal.



Yeah that's a solution for sure, but at the same time stacking pedals in front of an amp can give you different flavors that give some tone/feel that the amp does not do on its own. So it's good if there is very accurate pedal modeling too.


----------



## cardinal

Using a pedal is just different from amp gain IMHO. I've used the Marshall/SD-1 combo for so long, I'm use to that. The pedal gives saturation and a certain attack but without super compression (as long as you keep the pedal settings moderate). With most amps, it's hard to get all of that without a boost pedal.

One of the nice things about the Axe is that it's all internal. It's annoying to me to always need to run a pedal out front and run the various cords back to the amp and outlet etc. seems dumb and minor, but with the Axe, I can just plug into it without a mess a stuff out front.


----------



## Modus_Operandi

I must admit, I'm tempted by the sheer tweak parameters of the FM3 - My main guitar is a baritone with 14-68 strings - any idea how the FM3 would take these - often, things can sound wooly when using my Laney head / HX Stomp...


----------



## budda

Modus_Operandi said:


> I must admit, I'm tempted by the sheer tweak parameters of the FM3 - My main guitar is a baritone with 14-68 strings - any idea how the FM3 would take these - often, things can sound wooly when using my Laney head / HX Stomp...



It will be about how you dial it in. If you want wooly, its in there. If you want bright and tight, its in there too.


----------



## c7spheres

budda said:


> It will be about how you dial it in. If you want wooly, its in there. If you want bright and tight, its in there too.


 If one could somehow combine bright and wooly it'd = Christmas sweater tones.


----------



## budda

c7spheres said:


> If one could somehow combine bright and wooly it'd = Christmas sweater tones.



Wouldnt that be a gain'd up Orange?


----------



## c7spheres

budda said:


> Wouldnt that be a gain'd up Orange?


 I think it would, especially the tiny one's. The one's the elves play.


----------



## budda

c7spheres said:


> I think it would, especially the tiny one's. The one's the elves play.



Axe fx pignose IR has entered the chat.


----------



## sakeido

Modus_Operandi said:


> I must admit, I'm tempted by the sheer tweak parameters of the FM3 - My main guitar is a baritone with 14-68 strings - any idea how the FM3 would take these - often, things can sound wooly when using my Laney head / HX Stomp...



it's amazing

I thought I'd never sell my Recto but it took all of an hour dialing in Recto tones on the FM3 for me to take a picture of it and list it on Kijiji for sale. Every time playing the Recto, I need two boosts, certain pickups in the guitar, can't tune too low and I gotta sit at a certain angle from my cab. I'm always "I wish the presence was just a little less abrasaive" and "the lows are just too much" or something. Tweak three knobs on the FM3 = I'm playing a Recto with my theoretical perfect mods. no $ spent on modding, no fuckin around inside an amp, hell I'm changing things which are actually impossible to do on a Recto in Modern mode without re-doing the whole circuit or building some bizarre cab 

if you are a tweaker you literally need a Fractal


----------



## laxu

Modus_Operandi said:


> I must admit, I'm tempted by the sheer tweak parameters of the FM3 - My main guitar is a baritone with 14-68 strings - any idea how the FM3 would take these - often, things can sound wooly when using my Laney head / HX Stomp...


There’s a lot of approaches. A cool one is attaching a pitch follower modifier to adjust your amp EQ controls based on if you are playing high vs low notes. So cut some bass when playing low strings, bring it back up on higher strings. I use this with my 8-string.

Then you have a pile of EQ blocks you could use to shape the tone as well as the hundreds of amp and cab sims to pick from.

That said, use the EQ block on the HX Stomp to work your current tone. You can do a lot with just the Mesa 5-band EQ option.


----------



## Stephan

Guys I am almost set on ordering one of these! I just wanted to ask you which studio monitors you recommend for a home setup with a fractal unit. It seems that lots of people like the adam a7x. Does it make any sense to go for even higher-end monitors? What are your experiences?


----------



## budda

Stephan said:


> Guys I am almost set on ordering one of these! I just wanted to ask you which studio monitors you recommend for a home setup with a fractal unit. It seems that lots of people like the adam a7x. Does it make any sense to go for even higher-end monitors? What are your experiences?



Buy what gets good reviews for your budget and fits your room and requirements.

There's tons of threads like this on the fractal forum, I'd start there.

related to the tweaking thing, I messed with power tube tybe, xformer match, bias and negative feedback on the RV50 and it's a cool little twist.


----------



## laxu

Stephan said:


> Guys I am almost set on ordering one of these! I just wanted to ask you which studio monitors you recommend for a home setup with a fractal unit. It seems that lots of people like the adam a7x. Does it make any sense to go for even higher-end monitors? What are your experiences?


You don’t necessarily need the flattest, most accurate monitors but want something that can handle the low end. I use a pair of Genelec M040 speakers.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Stephan said:


> Guys I am almost set on ordering one of these! I just wanted to ask you which studio monitors you recommend for a home setup with a fractal unit. It seems that lots of people like the adam a7x. Does it make any sense to go for even higher-end monitors? What are your experiences?



There are many good ones. Some that get good reviews on the Fractal Forum are the Adam’s A7Xs you mentioned, Yamaha HS8s, and Focal Alpha 65s.


----------



## cmpxchg

I'm debating an FM3 or the full-fat AFX3. Is there any particular reason why I should pick one over another if I'm going to be using both with monitors, a DAW, and not-live and the price difference isn't concerning? (I'd rather get the right thing and pay more than try to save a few bucks and have to fight it later; I hate fighting with gear.)


----------



## Deadpool_25

cmpxchg said:


> I'm debating an FM3 or the full-fat AFX3. Is there any particular reason why I should pick one over another if I'm going to be using both with monitors, a DAW, and not-live and the price difference isn't concerning? (I'd rather get the right thing and pay more than try to save a few bucks and have to fight it later; I hate fighting with gear.)



If you don’t mind the rack format, I’d definitely go full AX3. The only reason I went FM3 is because I really don’t want the rack format and wanted an all in one floor unit. If Fractal eventually makes a fully featured floor version I’m pulling that trigger immediately.


----------



## laxu

cmpxchg said:


> I'm debating an FM3 or the full-fat AFX3. Is there any particular reason why I should pick one over another if I'm going to be using both with monitors, a DAW, and not-live and the price difference isn't concerning? (I'd rather get the right thing and pay more than try to save a few bucks and have to fight it later; I hate fighting with gear.)



Most people don’t need the extras offered by the Axe-Fx. I’d only get one if I wanted to build massive fx chains or run dual amps. The number of inputs and outputs is a bit limited on the FM3 but still enough for most.

I could never even use all the DSP my Axe-Fx 2 offered and never liked the rack format so for me the FM3 works better.


----------



## budda

cmpxchg said:


> I'm debating an FM3 or the full-fat AFX3. Is there any particular reason why I should pick one over another if I'm going to be using both with monitors, a DAW, and not-live and the price difference isn't concerning? (I'd rather get the right thing and pay more than try to save a few bucks and have to fight it later; I hate fighting with gear.)



Get the axe fx iii then. If you find you want to downsize later, that's money back in instead of extra money out.


----------



## MatrixClaw

sakeido said:


> it's amazing
> 
> I thought I'd never sell my Recto but it took all of an hour dialing in Recto tones on the FM3 for me to take a picture of it and list it on Kijiji for sale. Every time playing the Recto, I need two boosts, certain pickups in the guitar, can't tune too low and I gotta sit at a certain angle from my cab. I'm always "I wish the presence was just a little less abrasaive" and "the lows are just too much" or something. Tweak three knobs on the FM3 = I'm playing a Recto with my theoretical perfect mods. no $ spent on modding, no fuckin around inside an amp, hell I'm changing things which are actually impossible to do on a Recto in Modern mode without re-doing the whole circuit or building some bizarre cab
> 
> if you are a tweaker you literally need a Fractal


Can confirm and I'm not even a tweaker. I sold my Trem-O-Verb in favor of the FM3. It was so close there was no point in having both, but the FM3 is far more tweakable to get the ideal sounds out of it. I've owned 7s for years but never really been happy with any tone I've gotten out of them, I always go back to 6s for tightness - the FM3 is the only "amp" I've ever been satisfied with on a 7 string (and it sounds great with a 6, as well!).


----------



## Kyle Jordan

cmpxchg said:


> I'm debating an FM3 or the full-fat AFX3. Is there any particular reason why I should pick one over another if I'm going to be using both with monitors, a DAW, and not-live and the price difference isn't concerning? (I'd rather get the right thing and pay more than try to save a few bucks and have to fight it later; I hate fighting with gear.)



I just went through nearly the exact debate under very similar circumstances. 

I chose the III. 

Money being no object, unless you hate rack units or just badly want the pedal form factor, the III is the clear winner in my eyes. Not so much for the extra raw power, but for specific things like more cabs per patch, dual amps, and the higher DSP reverbs. 

The four cab spots is the biggie for me. My long held position is that the speaker cab section is where digital needs to work on. It was the Achilles’ Heel of all the other digital amp things I tried. Because of the number of cabs, tweakability, and general quality, I don’t feel that about the III. Granted, you can mix IRs elsewhere and send them to the FM3’s cab blocks for a similar idea. I just like having more available.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Starting work on a new pedalboard setup for the FM3 and FC6.




Faaaar from done with this. The pic is just a super preliminary layout before the _real_ work begins.


----------



## laxu

Deadpool_25 said:


> Starting work on a new pedalboard setup for the FM3 and FC6.
> 
> View attachment 93340
> 
> 
> Faaaar from done with this. The pic is just a super preliminary layout before the _real_ work begins.



I like the skins. Makes me think of the retro tech in Alien movies.


----------



## laxu

Kyle Jordan said:


> The four cab spots is the biggie for me. My long held position is that the speaker cab section is where digital needs to work on. It was the Achilles’ Heel of all the other digital amp things I tried. Because of the number of cabs, tweakability, and general quality, I don’t feel that about the III. Granted, you can mix IRs elsewhere and send them to the FM3’s cab blocks for a similar idea. I just like having more available.



While I agree that the cab section is the next avenue for improvement, just piling on more IRs is not it. I can use ML Sound Lab MIKKO to mix together up to 9 different cab/mic combinations with lots of controls for each and IMO it does not improve significantly going beyond 2. So to me the FM3 cab block is more than sufficient, especially with all the other controls it offers like getting a bit of sweetening from a preamp, proximity effect etc.

The cab block on the Quad Cortex with its two movable mic position/distance is much more intuitive to work with but Fractal will probably never make that sort of thing in current gen since it would require overhauling their whole IR system plus all the work to capture the IRs to blend in the first place.


----------



## Kyle Jordan

laxu said:


> While I agree that the cab section is the next avenue for improvement, just piling on more IRs is not it. I can use ML Sound Lab MIKKO to mix together up to 9 different cab/mic combinations with lots of controls for each and IMO it does not improve significantly going beyond 2. So to me the FM3 cab block is more than sufficient, especially with all the other controls it offers like getting a bit of sweetening from a preamp, proximity effect etc.
> 
> The cab block on the Quad Cortex with its two movable mic position/distance is much more intuitive to work with but Fractal will probably never make that sort of thing in current gen since it would require overhauling their whole IR system plus all the work to capture the IRs to blend in the first place.



And for me, I'm kind of the opposite. I cut my teeth with Wall Of Sound, and didn't start getting results I liked until I began using 4 or so cabs/IRs together. I've carried that over to the III and am very happy with what I can get combined with the other great Cab block options. 

But yeah, the next step will definitely have to be something more than just a mess of IRs as we can do that now. I'd like to give the Ox a whirl sometime as that's supposed to be more than IRs, but I have no idea if that's true. 

And I really hope Fractal has something brewing for the IV and it's interface/interaction. I don't have a major issue with using the III itself and I really like Axe Edit, but just looking at demos of the QC really shows how well Neural did at the interface and what can be done.


----------



## laxu

Kyle Jordan said:


> And I really hope Fractal has something brewing for the IV and it's interface/interaction. I don't have a major issue with using the III itself and I really like Axe Edit, but just looking at demos of the QC really shows how well Neural did at the interface and what can be done.



For sure. Even for the Axe-Fx 3/FM3 they could improve a lot of little things to make it much better to use. "go back to previous block" feature would be a huge improvement as I really hate the "spam Edit to cycle blocks" thing.


----------



## Elric

Deadpool_25 said:


> If you don’t mind the rack format, I’d definitely go full AX3. The only reason I went FM3 is because I really don’t want the rack format and wanted an all in one floor unit. If Fractal eventually makes a fully featured floor version I’m pulling that trigger immediately.


Yeah. The rack Axes will make you feel like you have unlimited tonal power. It literally feels like you can cop any tone you have in your head. It is super addictive and can make other rigs feel really limited once you get used to it. Some people seem haunted by unused horsepower or something but I'd rather never bump my head against the limits of a rig.

The II is like that too, TBH. I know it is like super sexy to have a III or FM3. I do have a III, but have been playing my II more lately because I have a Synergy Syn-2+Axe II setup I built after getting the III. That rig is freaking insane. My biggest fear for that setup is that one day either the PSU/Screen/Data wheel will go on the II or an OS update will come out killing Axe-Edit and rendering all of my presets on the II uneditable. 

If the Axe IV drops and I get the itch to follow along, I would be in a quandary because that 3U thing on the III is so unwieldy... I'd be looking at a rack case upgrade if I decided to move the III into the II's spot.

Anyway, if you can tolerate the form factor, the rack stuff is amazeballs.


----------



## RevDrucifer

I think we’re still a few years away from an AxeFX IV. With the III MKII expanding it’s memory, it seems they’re more interested in developing the III for a few more years to come.

Unless they wanted to directly attack the UI stuff in the form of a new unit, I’m hard pressed to see how they can advance the III on any other front, especially in the context of the modeling/sounds. I got mine a year and a half ago and I would have been happy with it then if it never got updated again (well, after the pitch block update). 

Given Fractal’s history with UI stuff, I’m not so sure they’d be willing to create a whole new flagship with the current modeling but a new fancy UI. 

That said, I wouldn’t be surprised if a floor unit bridging the gap between the FM3 and the III came out, like an FM9 or FM12, before a new flagship.


----------



## RevDrucifer

sakeido said:


> it's amazing
> 
> I thought I'd never sell my Recto but it took all of an hour dialing in Recto tones on the FM3 for me to take a picture of it and list it on Kijiji for sale. Every time playing the Recto, I need two boosts, certain pickups in the guitar, can't tune too low and I gotta sit at a certain angle from my cab. I'm always "I wish the presence was just a little less abrasaive" and "the lows are just too much" or something. Tweak three knobs on the FM3 = I'm playing a Recto with my theoretical perfect mods. no $ spent on modding, no fuckin around inside an amp, hell I'm changing things which are actually impossible to do on a Recto in Modern mode without re-doing the whole circuit or building some bizarre cab
> 
> if you are a tweaker you literally need a Fractal



This sums up why I love my III so much. Those exact things; fine tuning an tone to get exactly what you want out of it without compromising. 

Sure, there’s a learning curve with all the parameters, but I always find it so odd when people complain about that. Building a ‘perfect’ physical rig is a long learning curve just the same, except usually more expensive one and it lasts a lot longer. You’ve gotta take the time to figure out what you want, buy it all, learn how to use it, find out what works and what doesn’t, buy more shit, learn that shit, rinse and repeat until you’re finally at your final rig. Or you can spend a couple weeks with a unit that has everything in it, learn how to use it to it’s fullest capacity and be done with it forever.


----------



## budda

laxu said:


> For sure. Even for the Axe-Fx 3/FM3 they could improve a lot of little things to make it much better to use. "go back to previous block" feature would be a huge improvement as I really hate the "spam Edit to cycle blocks" thing.



Yet this is the only time I see this complaint, in your posts . Not saying it wouldnt help, just saying it seems pretty isolated.

Also wuddup 16.01 on the iii


----------



## Kyle Jordan

RevDrucifer said:


> This sums up why I love my III so much. Those exact things; fine tuning an tone to get exactly what you want out of it without compromising.
> 
> Sure, there’s a learning curve with all the parameters, but I always find it so odd when people complain about that. Building a ‘perfect’ physical rig is a long learning curve just the same, except usually more expensive one and it lasts a lot longer. You’ve gotta take the time to figure out what you want, buy it all, learn how to use it, find out what works and what doesn’t, buy more shit, learn that shit, rinse and repeat until you’re finally at your final rig. Or you can spend a couple weeks with a unit that has everything in it, learn how to use it to it’s fullest capacity and be done with it forever.



The most major shift I’ve found so far is that I’m becoming more amp/model agnostic using the III. I’m hunting more for character and traits as opposed to names, because I can modify from the ground floor to tweak little thing more to my liking. For example distortion character wise, I have fallen head over heels for the Triptik and Tucana models. Those are starting to creep towards my top spots. 

There’s a kind of cool creative process here. Rather than “I want a Mark series w/V30 IR that uses a more neutral mic…” I’m thinking “What gets me a very sharp distortion that’s still pretty saturated and not crunchy or too colored after the amp?” That’s really opened up a lot of options for me. 

I had already moved away from wanting to buy some of the amps I had planned on eventually getting. I’m really starting to heavily look at things that give me the ability to very accurately control the distortion like the the Fryette GP/DI with both gain controls on the Ultra Lead setting, the Source Audio Ultra Wave, Gamechanger Plasma stuff, and even Reaxis because as awesome as the Triaxis stuff in the Axe is, Reaxis faithfully recreates the Tri and the ability to use Lead Drive 1 and 2 together. (Both are active and affect the signal on the Tri, the Axe doesn’t recreate this sadly.) Things like this are getting my attention now. Hell, I even find myself playing with the Drives and I fucking hate boosts. 

I may even bide my time and poach a UA Ox in the future to see if they’re genuinely doing something different there before I delve in to cabs, speakers, and mics.


----------



## laxu

budda said:


> Yet this is the only time I see this complaint, in your posts . Not saying it wouldnt help, just saying it seems pretty isolated.



A lot of people including me just deal with whatever quirks they have with a device. If you do all your editing from Axe-Edit then you will never see most of the problems. That doesn't mean they should not be presented to the developer as a point of improvement (which I have) or discussed. 

There's a lot of other stuff in the Fractal UI design that don't work well or are inconsistent, the "go back to previous block" is just one thing that comes up all the time if you edit on the hardware. 

By comparison going back to previous block on Helix and QC is a total no brainer because the grid is always visible. QC cab and parametric EQ blocks are the only exceptions but even then you can always go back to the grid with one press whereas FM3 will let you go to edit view from multiple places and Exit takes you back to whatever you were in previously, which at least for me is 99% of the time the home view rather than the layout grid.

Not having a dedicated button for the grid is another problem of the Fractal hardware UI, requiring a Home - Enter press every time. Then Enter opens a menu item in every other situation except layout grid which is another inconsistency. If I were to redesign this, Enter would edit a block and you would use the move block etc view to connect blocks together.

"It's just a couple of buttons" or "you just have to use Edit button instead" is a poor excuse for having a bad setup for operations you do all the time. Those should be fast, efficient and not require an extra mental step to pick the right button. Sure, you can learn to live with them but why should you have to when the company could just make these things better, with pretty low development effort too?


----------



## budda

Dont you think it would already be implemented if it was that easy?


----------



## narad

Deadpool_25 said:


> Starting work on a new pedalboard setup for the FM3 and FC6.
> 
> View attachment 93340
> 
> 
> Faaaar from done with this. The pic is just a super preliminary layout before the _real_ work begins.



How did you make your FM3 not look stupid?


----------



## laxu

budda said:


> Dont you think it would already be implemented if it was that easy?



Actually no. Fractal has been historically pretty bad at improving the UI behavior. Modeling updates, new models, new features for the amp modeling come in all the time but most of the existing UI does not change one bit until Fractal releases a new product. This based on nearly 10 years of using their products.

It's not even the lack of people asking, you can look at the wish list threads on their forums and as you trawl through the piles and piles of "add model of thing X!" posts you will see plenty of sensible feature requests that have a development effort of about a day or two (coding and testing). While I don't have delusions that Fractal should implement mine specifically, there's definitely many things that would just make sense and improve the overall experience.

I have no idea why they choose to ignore this stuff. One of the big ones right now is people asking for a Home view that is easier to read with the device on the floor. Makes perfect sense no matter how good your vision is. The effort do this would be low as it's literally "increase the font size of Home view" as a first level response and improve it further from there.

My complaints about the UI stuff comes from a place of love. I love how Fractal units sound, I love all the features they have. I love Axe-Edit/FM3-Edit. I just really, really hate how they just don't put this kind of effort into competing on the UI front when relatively small effort would make a big difference. That's what's driving me towards Helix or QC.


----------



## budda

I suspect i'll see the i/o matrix wish before I see granular delay or the "simple delay", but at the same time Im grateful to get what we get. If the day comes that I need something else, I'll buy something else.


----------



## Deadpool_25

narad said:


> How did you make your FM3 not look stupid?



Skin and protection from Gear By Ceba.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Generally speaking, I’m kinda with @laxu on this one. Fractal products sound amazing and have a ton of great models. Although there are a few models I’d love to see added (Klon, Two Rock Traditional Clean, Dumble SSS or Two Rock SSS), and what I want the most is a full-power floor unit, I think the area that could use the most improvement is the UI.

Their last major change in terms of UI was going from the AxeFX II to the AxeFX III and while it’s better and it’s not exactly _bad_ to work with, there is still a lot of room for improvement.

The Fractal modelers are _great_ in all the important ways except for UI. The UI is merely “okay.”


----------



## narad

Deadpool_25 said:


> Skin and protection from Gear By Ceba.



I used to have to give the design nod to the QC (by a million miles) but I love that! Has a very 80's high-tech vibe. Actually had me checking the prices out on reverb since a generic aesthetic is always a bit of a turnn-off for me, never actually considered it.

By the same token I'm checking out all these Akai MPC's now that they rolled out a retro look for them.


----------



## Deadpool_25

narad said:


> I used to have to give the design nod to the QC (by a million miles) but I love that! Has a very 80's high-tech vibe. Actually had me checking the prices out on reverb since a generic aesthetic is always a bit of a turnn-off for me, never actually considered it.
> 
> By the same token I'm checking out all these Akai MPC's now that they rolled out a retro look for them.



Thanks man. Yeah I think it looks great and was pretty easy to install. I like that you can choose from many different colors or you can have him print a specific picture on the vinyl. 

On the FM3 vs MPC stuf...

The correct answer is both. Always both.


----------



## Kyle Jordan

Deadpool_25 said:


> Although there are a few models I’d love to see added (Klon, Two Rock Traditional Clean, Dumble SSS or Two Rock SSS), and what I want the most is a full-power floor unit, I think the area that could use the most improvement is the UI.



Biggest disappointment I've had with my III so far is realizing Cliff skipped Channel 1 of the Herbert. I love that clean channel and mistakenly thought the entire amp had been modeled. But yeah, some Steel String Singers need to be added.


----------



## sakeido

narad said:


> I used to have to give the design nod to the QC (by a million miles) but I love that! Has a very 80's high-tech vibe. Actually had me checking the prices out on reverb since a generic aesthetic is always a bit of a turnn-off for me, never actually considered it.
> 
> By the same token I'm checking out all these Akai MPC's now that they rolled out a retro look for them.



MPCs are so dope. I've never used one just to mess around and write, but they're fully capable of that and you don't even need a computer. Akai pads are the best by miles.. I downsized from a M-Audio 49 key to a MPK Mini for my setup here and this lil $100 keyboard just blows it away. 

In our synthwave band a MPC basically powers our entire show and we just supplement it with the live guitar and a couple synths.


----------



## laxu

Kyle Jordan said:


> Biggest disappointment I've had with my III so far is realizing Cliff skipped Channel 1 of the Herbert. I love that clean channel and mistakenly thought the entire amp had been modeled. But yeah, some Steel String Singers need to be added.



Usually when they skip a channel it's because it's too similar to an existing model, maybe even exactly the same according to a schematic. If the wiki says nothing then maybe it's something like a Fender Twin with a different powertube?


----------



## Kyle Jordan

Could be. I've been doing the tonestack swap on the SVT to get the Steel String Singer vibe I believe Cliff suggested long ago. I may see if I can swap the tonestack from the JC120 since the Herbert clean reminded me of a tube based and bigger sounding JC120. That might get close enough.


----------



## budda

Kyle Jordan said:


> Could be. I've been doing the tonestack swap on the SVT to get the Steel String Singer vibe I believe Cliff suggested long ago. I may see if I can swap the tonestack from the JC120 since the Herbert clean reminded me of a tube based and bigger sounding JC120. That might get close enough.



You can swap the tonestack of anything to anything .


----------



## Deadpool_25

sakeido said:


> MPCs are so dope. I've never used one just to mess around and write, but they're fully capable of that and you don't even need a computer. Akai pads are the best by miles.. I downsized from a M-Audio 49 key to a MPK Mini for my setup here and this lil $100 keyboard just blows it away.
> 
> In our synthwave band a MPC basically powers our entire show and we just supplement it with the live guitar and a couple synths.



I got an MPK Mini about 6 months ago but haven’t really used it. Around the same time I bought a Digitakt and a Digitone but ended up returning them. They were awesome but I already have too many hobbies I suck at.


----------



## Shask

laxu said:


> A lot of people including me just deal with whatever quirks they have with a device. If you do all your editing from Axe-Edit then you will never see most of the problems. That doesn't mean they should not be presented to the developer as a point of improvement (which I have) or discussed.
> 
> There's a lot of other stuff in the Fractal UI design that don't work well or are inconsistent, the "go back to previous block" is just one thing that comes up all the time if you edit on the hardware.
> 
> By comparison going back to previous block on Helix and QC is a total no brainer because the grid is always visible. QC cab and parametric EQ blocks are the only exceptions but even then you can always go back to the grid with one press whereas FM3 will let you go to edit view from multiple places and Exit takes you back to whatever you were in previously, which at least for me is 99% of the time the home view rather than the layout grid.
> 
> Not having a dedicated button for the grid is another problem of the Fractal hardware UI, requiring a Home - Enter press every time. Then Enter opens a menu item in every other situation except layout grid which is another inconsistency. If I were to redesign this, Enter would edit a block and you would use the move block etc view to connect blocks together.
> 
> "It's just a couple of buttons" or "you just have to use Edit button instead" is a poor excuse for having a bad setup for operations you do all the time. Those should be fast, efficient and not require an extra mental step to pick the right button. Sure, you can learn to live with them but why should you have to when the company could just make these things better, with pretty low development effort too?


The Layout button goes directly to the grid, at least on the Axe-FX II. Does the III not have this button?


----------



## laxu

Shask said:


> The Layout button goes directly to the grid, at least on the Axe-FX II. Does the III not have this button?



Unfortunately no. To access the grid you need to press Home, then Enter or one of the button/knobss under the display. Now that I think of it, they actually managed to make the front panel controls worse in this regard when there's no dedicated layout button and no X/Y shortcuts.


----------



## Mathemagician

laxu said:


> A lot of people including me just deal with whatever quirks they have with a device. If you do all your editing from Axe-Edit then you will never see most of the problems. That doesn't mean they should not be presented to the developer as a point of improvement (which I have) or discussed.
> 
> There's a lot of other stuff in the Fractal UI design that don't work well or are inconsistent, the "go back to previous block" is just one thing that comes up all the time if you edit on the hardware.
> 
> By comparison going back to previous block on Helix and QC is a total no brainer because the grid is always visible. QC cab and parametric EQ blocks are the only exceptions but even then you can always go back to the grid with one press whereas FM3 will let you go to edit view from multiple places and Exit takes you back to whatever you were in previously, which at least for me is 99% of the time the home view rather than the layout grid.
> 
> Not having a dedicated button for the grid is another problem of the Fractal hardware UI, requiring a Home - Enter press every time. Then Enter opens a menu item in every other situation except layout grid which is another inconsistency. If I were to redesign this, Enter would edit a block and you would use the move block etc view to connect blocks together.
> 
> "It's just a couple of buttons" or "you just have to use Edit button instead" is a poor excuse for having a bad setup for operations you do all the time. Those should be fast, efficient and not require an extra mental step to pick the right button. Sure, you can learn to live with them but why should you have to when the company could just make these things better, with pretty low development effort too?



Ok so what I got from this is that it’s not just me, it’s actually not easy to “go back” a screen when editing on the hardware. Thank god I thought I was just fucking stupid. Felt like I pressed every seemingly obvious button. 

Admittedly I really did just plus into FM3 edit and find the nearest 5150 and then never edited anything but the mids again but still. I felt dumb AF man.


----------



## Emperoff

Deadpool_25 said:


> Skin and protection from Gear By Ceba.



Those look awesome!

BTW, is that a Temple Audio board?


----------



## Deadpool_25

Emperoff said:


> Those look awesome!
> 
> BTW, is that a Temple Audio board?



Yep. A duo 34.


----------



## Emperoff

Deadpool_25 said:


> Yep. A duo 34.



You know, my humble Boss BCB-60 serves me well and has integrated power supply. I kinda forced myself to stay with it to not spend more money on pedals , but these caught my eye from day one. Seem very lightweight with the mesh design, and I hate velcro so its concept appeals me.

Could you school me a bit on the mods they offer?


----------



## laxu

Well, Thomann just shipped the CME WIDI master and Xsonic Airstep bundle I ordered. Planning to hook up wirelessly to the FM3, see if I can do that with the QC as well and above all I want to try Fracpad on my iPad Pro.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Emperoff said:


> You know, my humble Boss BCB-60 serves me well and has integrated power supply. I kinda forced myself to stay with it to not spend more money on pedals , but these caught my eye from day one. Seem very lightweight with the mesh design, and I hate velcro so its concept appeals me.
> 
> Could you school me a bit on the mods they offer?



This one is brand new to me so I’m just getting familiar with it so I haven’t gotten anything extra yet. I got it specifically for this FM3/FC6 rig amd won’t use the attachment plates with this setup but those seem very cool. 

They have some regular mods you’d expect like various input and output mods and power mods. Also some cool ones like buffered input/output and XLR. They have one that seems interesting in that it’s a 100w stereo amp. I haven’t tried any of the mods yet though.


----------



## Emperoff

Deadpool_25 said:


> This one is brand new to me so I’m just getting familiar with it so I haven’t gotten anything extra yet. I got it specifically for this FM3/FC6 rig amd won’t use the attachment plates with this setup but those seem very cool.
> 
> They have some regular mods you’d expect like various input and output mods and power mods. Also some cool ones like buffered input/output and XLR. They have one that seems interesting in that it’s a 100w stereo amp. I haven’t tried any of the mods yet though.



Man, I'm such a noob regarding pedalboards. I haven't figured out yet why would I want extra inputs/outputs, XLRs outs (what's the point if not implemented on the gear itself), etc. I'm always been more of a "plug and play" player.

But lately I see all these beautiful Tetris pedalboards and the final builds look amazing. My V4 Kraken takes half pedalboard by itself, but with this design I could easily slip some pedals underneath.


----------



## Emperoff

Deadpool_25 said:


> Generally speaking, I’m kinda with @laxu on this one. Fractal products sound amazing and have a ton of great models. Although there are a few models I’d love to see added (Klon, Two Rock Traditional Clean, Dumble SSS or Two Rock SSS), and what I want the most is a full-power floor unit, I think the area that could use the most improvement is the UI.
> 
> Their last major change in terms of UI was going from the AxeFX II to the AxeFX III and while it’s better and it’s not exactly _bad_ to work with, there is still a lot of room for improvement.
> 
> The Fractal modelers are _great_ in all the important ways except for UI. The UI is merely “okay.”



If Fractal made an FM3 with a built in SS Poweramp and one or two extra switches and sold it for 1600$ (Quad Cortex price). BOOM.


----------



## budda

Emperoff said:


> If Fractal made an FM3 with a built in SS Poweramp and one or two extra switches and sold it for 1600$ (Quad Cortex price). BOOM.



What's an FM3 + powerstage 170 + Boss FS-6?


----------



## Emperoff

budda said:


> What's an FM3 + powerstage 170 + Boss FS-6?



Three separate things!


----------



## budda

Emperoff said:


> Three separate things!



All fits on a small board - doubly so if the ps170 goes under the fm3


----------



## Deadpool_25

Emperoff said:


> Man, I'm such a noob regarding pedalboards. I haven't figured out yet why would I want extra inputs/outputs, XLRs outs (what's the point if not implemented on the gear itself), etc. I'm always been more of a "plug and play" player.
> 
> But lately I see all these beautiful Tetris pedalboards and the final builds look amazing. My V4 Kraken takes half pedalboard by itself, but with this design I could easily slip some pedals underneath.



Typically the inputs and outputs on the board are to give you a central point to connect to your outboard gear (amps, FOH, etc). Sometimes it just makes for a cleaner install and hookups. I’m only using the XLR outputs on the FM3 and those are plenty robust so that no problem at all. With regular pedals sometimes it makes sense to use an IO box like the GigRig MIDI Cinco or similar.


----------



## Emperoff

budda said:


> All fits on a small board - doubly so if the ps170 goes under the fm3



But doesn't satisfy the criteria of people looking for a single device 



Deadpool_25 said:


> Typically the inputs and outputs on the board are to give you a central point to connect to your outboard gear (amps, FOH, etc). Sometimes it just makes for a cleaner install and hookups. I’m only using the XLR outputs on the FM3 and those are plenty robust so that no problem at all. With regular pedals sometimes it makes sense to use an IO box like the GigRig MIDI Cinco or similar.



Looking forward to see your pedalboard finished!


----------



## budda

Emperoff said:


> But doesn't satisfy the criteria of people looking for a single device



But if you need the same functionality, today, its right there .


----------



## Kyle Jordan

Any of you guys ever use an expression pedal and pitch or other effects to simulate a a trem? I have a fixed bridge on my Ibanez and I’m going for an Evertune on my Aristides. As I’ve been playing my Floyd equipped Jacksons a bit more before deciding if I’m going to sell them, and it hit me that I may miss the trem a bit. Not enough to skip the Evertune, but some. Would be cool if I could fake it with the III and an expression pedal.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Kyle Jordan said:


> Any of you guys ever use an expression pedal and pitch or other effects to simulate a a trem? I have a fixed bridge on my Ibanez and I’m going for an Evertune on my Aristides. As I’ve been playing my Floyd equipped Jacksons a bit more before deciding if I’m going to sell them, and it hit me that I may miss the trem a bit. Not enough to skip the Evertune, but some. Would be cool if I could fake it with the III and an expression pedal.



Never tried that but I’d guess it would be simple enough using a pitch block.


----------



## Emperoff

budda said:


> But if you need the same functionality, today, its right there .



I don't. But a product like that would sell much better than the combination you mentioned


----------



## cardinal

Kyle Jordan said:


> Any of you guys ever use an expression pedal and pitch or other effects to simulate a a trem? I have a fixed bridge on my Ibanez and I’m going for an Evertune on my Aristides. As I’ve been playing my Floyd equipped Jacksons a bit more before deciding if I’m going to sell them, and it hit me that I may miss the trem a bit. Not enough to skip the Evertune, but some. Would be cool if I could fake it with the III and an expression pedal.



Not with the AFX but I've tried with a Whammy pedal. It simulates a full drive bomb pretty well, so I assume the AFX would as well, but was very hard to use my foot to do more subtle vibrato tricks.


----------



## cardinal

Anyone playing with the Master Trim control?

I'm wondering if it's essentially like the "channel volume" control on amps like the Rectifier. 

I've been having a terrible time dialing in the Recto1 sim, just way too much boomy low end. But if I run the sim's master somewhat high (3.75) but dial the master trim way back (.250), I think it's starting to match up the real amp. 

And this is essentially how I run the real amp (overall master is hard bypassed; the channel volume sets the overall volume and is pretty darn low because the amp would kill me if it were higher).


----------



## laxu

cardinal said:


> Anyone playing with the Master Trim control?
> 
> I'm wondering if it's essentially like the "channel volume" control on amps like the Rectifier.
> 
> I've been having a terrible time dialing in the Recto1 sim, just way too much boomy low end. But if I run the sim's master somewhat high (3.75) but dial the master trim way back (.250), I think it's starting to match up the real amp.
> 
> And this is essentially how I run the real amp (overall master is hard bypassed; the channel volume sets the overall volume and is pretty darn low because the amp would kill me if it were higher).



Try it and report back. But honestly if too much low end is an issue you have a ton of tools to tame it: input/output EQ in the amp block, throwing an EQ block before/after the amp, turning up cab block low cut...

Or just forget the Recto and use one of the hundreds of other amp models.


----------



## budda

cardinal said:


> Anyone playing with the Master Trim control?
> 
> I'm wondering if it's essentially like the "channel volume" control on amps like the Rectifier.
> 
> I've been having a terrible time dialing in the Recto1 sim, just way too much boomy low end. But if I run the sim's master somewhat high (3.75) but dial the master trim way back (.250), I think it's starting to match up the real amp.
> 
> And this is essentially how I run the real amp (overall master is hard bypassed; the channel volume sets the overall volume and is pretty darn low because the amp would kill me if it were higher).



You mean input trim? Yeah its a fun one. Iirc Cliff said set it to .500 to simulate the low input on a fender etc.

Rectos get boomy quick irl, do they not? I recall the tip "set bass to 0 or 1" being a common post when they were the hotness.


----------



## cardinal

budda said:


> You mean input trim? Yeah its a fun one. Iirc Cliff said set it to .500 to simulate the low input on a fender etc.
> 
> Rectos get boomy quick irl, do they not? I recall the tip "set bass to 0 or 1" being a common post when they were the hotness.



No, there's a separate setting for the master trim.

I have a Triple Recto here with me, and reducing the master trim seems to get the amp sim much closer to how the real amp sounds, to me at least. 

I should try the Triple with the channel master maxed and control the volume with the overall master and compare that it the AFX with master trim at 1.00.


----------



## laxu

cardinal said:


> No, there's a separate setting for the master trim.
> 
> I have a Triple Recto here with me, and reducing the master trim seems to get the amp sim much closer to how the real amp sounds, to me at least.
> 
> I should try the Triple with the channel master maxed and control the volume with the overall master and compare that it the AFX with master trim at 1.00.



Just remember that the Axe-Fx master control is more gradual so the same setting as you would use on the real amp won't behave the same.


----------



## budda

cardinal said:


> No, there's a separate setting for the master trim.
> 
> I have a Triple Recto here with me, and reducing the master trim seems to get the amp sim much closer to how the real amp sounds, to me at least.
> 
> I should try the Triple with the channel master maxed and control the volume with the overall master and compare that it the AFX with master trim at 1.00.



ah you mean the master next to the actual preset level then (in axe-edit)?


----------



## cardinal

budda said:


> ah you mean the master next to the actual preset level then (in axe-edit)?


It's something in the deep edit sections. On the front panel editor, it's on the last page near the master volume cap value or something like that.


----------



## budda

cardinal said:


> It's something in the deep edit sections. On the front panel editor, it's on the last page near the master volume cap value or something like that.



I'll try to remember to look when i get a minute today.


----------



## cardinal

laxu said:


> Just remember that the Axe-Fx master control is more gradual so the same setting as you would use on the real amp won't behave the same.



Yeah, that's definitely true.

So I tried the Triple with the channel master on maximum and used the overall master to adjust decibels. That's pretty much how the Fractal sim acts with the master trim on 1.00. The low end becomes woofy and the high end is harsh.

Bypassing the Recto loop and using only the channel master to set the decibels. That sounds smoother and the low end is slow and loose but not woofy. That sounds more like running the AFX sim's master high and dialing the master trim way back.

At least from how I'm hearing it.

This may be the behavior of all the amps with channel masters (VH4, etc.). I've played with the IIC+ sim by setting the master trim back to .7 (I always run the IIC+ lead master on 7 of 10), and I did seem to like that better. Need to try it with the VH4 sim, which I've also been scratching my head over. I never ran that amp with the channel masters maxed out.


----------



## Deadpool_25

@cardinal How are you monitoring the real Triple Rec and the AxeFX?


----------



## Emperoff




----------



## budda

From the manual:



> Master Vol Trim — Allows you to adjust the range of Master Volume. Increasing the value above 1.0 will cause more gain in the virtual power amp and vice versa.


----------



## cardinal

Deadpool_25 said:


> @cardinal How are you monitoring the real Triple Rec and the AxeFX?


A '93 Recto 4x12


----------



## cardinal

budda said:


> From the manual:


But it's not saying what it does if you lower it. I'm wondering if it's adjusting the "pre amp send" level for amps separate channel masters.


----------



## budda

cardinal said:


> But it's not saying what it does if you lower it. I'm wondering if it's adjusting the "pre amp send" level for amps separate channel masters.



No idea


----------



## sakeido

why is it when I have the amp and the FM3 it feels like the Fractal is so good I don't need the amp anymore

so then I sell the amp, now it feels like the real amp was way better and I just made a dumb decision


----------



## laxu

sakeido said:


> why is it when I have the amp and the FM3 it feels like the Fractal is so good I don't need the amp anymore
> 
> so then I sell the amp, now it feels like the real amp was way better and I just made a dumb decision



Try again tomorrow. We have days when nothing sounds good and that tends to lead to expensive purchases.

Not having the amp for reference might also make you second guess yourself.


----------



## budda

sakeido said:


> why is it when I have the amp and the FM3 it feels like the Fractal is so good I don't need the amp anymore
> 
> so then I sell the amp, now it feels like the real amp was way better and I just made a dumb decision



Out of sight out of mind, I wouldnt sweat it.


----------



## cardinal

sakeido said:


> why is it when I have the amp and the FM3 it feels like the Fractal is so good I don't need the amp anymore
> 
> so then I sell the amp, now it feels like the real amp was way better and I just made a dumb decision



It definitely is helpful to have the real amp there to help dial in the AFX. For nothing else, it grounds the expectations of how "imperfect" the tone really is. I hear "fizz" with a 5150, I just deal with it because whatever, everyone deals with it and just melts faces anyway. I hear "fizz" with the AFX and pull my hair out trying to get rid of it, unless I have the real amp to remind me, "oh yeah, that's just how it is. Get over it."


----------



## Deadpool_25

cardinal said:


> A '93 Recto 4x12



So you’re running the Axe through the recto FX loop?


----------



## cardinal

Deadpool_25 said:


> So you’re running the Axe through the recto FX loop?



No, a Crest CA9. 

Ultimately, I think the I got the sim to match up to the amp. The AFX master volume just has such a narrow sweet spot. Having the real amp to go back and forth while making minor adjustments to the virtual master eventually got them sounding the same. 

I'm continually frustrated by the behavior of the AFX master volume (real amps do not have such dramatic tone changes when adjusting the master volumes), but once's its set, at least I find I don't have to worry about it anymore.


----------



## Mathemagician

For a pedal board rig, any reason not to get the Seymour Duncan Powerstage 200 over the 170?


----------



## sakeido

budda said:


> Out of sight out of mind, I wouldnt sweat it.



a lot of it is just angst cuz I owned the Recto for years, and I probably won't never replace it with another tube amp.. feels like I just sold part of myself. But it's not like it was getting used anyways


----------



## Deadpool_25

cardinal said:


> No, a Crest CA9.
> 
> Ultimately, I think the I got the sim to match up to the amp. The AFX master volume just has such a narrow sweet spot. Having the real amp to go back and forth while making minor adjustments to the virtual master eventually got them sounding the same.
> 
> I'm continually frustrated by the behavior of the AFX master volume (real amps do not have such dramatic tone changes when adjusting the master volumes), but once's its set, at least I find I don't have to worry about it anymore.



Yeah I definitely like having the ability to instantly switch between a real amp and a model.

The master volume on the Fractal gear is definitely a powerful tone shaping tool. I’ve never really had amps where I can crank the MV up so I don’t really know how that sounds in person.

Actually I guess I could now with the Suhr RLIR, or by running the FM3 into a loop; I could crank the amp master a bit and turn the output on the FM3 down.

But I’m good. I’m pretty satisfied with my setup at this point. Guitar > FM3 > (2) EVH FX loops > (2) custom 2x12 cabs = done. Now I’m just working on some aesthetic stuff.


----------



## Deadpool_25

sakeido said:


> feels like I just sold part of myself. But it's not like it was getting used anyways



Get your Recto back. Sentimental value is a real thing. You can always fire it up for a few minutes even if it’s just once or twice a year. And they look badass too.


----------



## Shask

Deadpool_25 said:


> Get your Recto back. Sentimental value is a real thing. You can always fire it up for a few minutes even if it’s just once or twice a year. And they look badass too.


Might go back to it also. I know I recently moved my Triple Recto into a new room, and actually flipped it over to the tube rectifiers for the first time in forever, and it is the best it has sounded in years. I cant quit playing it now.


----------



## budda

Deadpool_25 said:


> Get your Recto back. Sentimental value is a real thing. You can always fire it up for a few minutes even if it’s just once or twice a year. And they look badass too.



The flip side of this is that once you can't see it regularly, you'll be thinking about it far less often. Odds are there's something you can put the money towards that will be more beneficial now. .


----------



## cardinal

Deadpool_25 said:


> Yeah I definitely like having the ability to instantly switch between a real amp and a model.
> 
> The master volume on the Fractal gear is definitely a powerful tone shaping tool. I’ve never really had amps where I can crank the MV up so I don’t really know how that sounds in person.
> 
> Actually I guess I could now with the Suhr RLIR, or by running the FM3 into a loop; I could crank the amp master a bit and turn the output on the FM3 down.
> 
> But I’m good. I’m pretty satisfied with my setup at this point. Guitar > FM3 > (2) EVH FX loops > (2) custom 2x12 cabs = done. Now I’m just working on some aesthetic stuff.



The Fractal master just doesn't make any sense.

The 5150 sim and 5152 sim with the masters at 3.75 (!) match my 5150 and 6505 with their masters between 1 to 2. The Fractal headroom meter of course says that the power amp is way out of headroom by that point, but clearly the real amps are not clipping their power sections at those settings.

The Recto1 sim, on the other hand, needed the master around 1.33 to match up to the amp. Pushing much beyond that, the low end becomes completely overwhelming and woofy.

And the various 1959 sims and the AC30 sims have waaaaayyyyyy to much over drive if you set their masters to 10. They sound like my amps only with the masters back to around 6.

If I could trust the headroom meter and the idea that the max level setting is somewhat accurate, I'd stop complaining about the Fractal master volume. But as it is, is very very frustrating for me to use.

The B/M/T controls all seem very accurate to the real amps. Generally the input gain is right, which a few exceptions but that's easy to adjust. The 5150 presence control apparently is way off, but someone thankfully explained that to me (the sim on 2 is equivalent to the amp around 6, apparently, which sounds right).


----------



## broangiel

cardinal said:


> The Fractal master just doesn't make any sense.
> 
> The 5150 sim and 5152 sim with the masters at 3.75 (!) match my 5150 and 6505 with their masters between 1 to 2. The Fractal headroom meter of course says that the power amp is way out of headroom by that point, but clearly the real amps are not clipping their power sections at those settings.
> 
> The Recto1 sim, on the other hand, needed the master around 1.33 to match up to the amp. Pushing much beyond that, the low end becomes completely overwhelming and woofy.
> 
> And the various 1959 sims and the AC30 sims have waaaaayyyyyy to much over drive if you set their masters to 10. They sound like my amps only with the masters back to around 6.
> 
> If I could trust the headroom meter and the idea that the max level setting is somewhat accurate, I'd stop complaining about the Fractal master volume. But as it is, is very very frustrating for me to use.
> 
> The B/M/T controls all seem very accurate to the real amps. Generally the input gain is right, which a few exceptions but that's easy to adjust. The 5150 presence control apparently is way off, but someone thankfully explained that to me (the sim on 2 is equivalent to the amp around 6, apparently, which sounds right).


Wait what’s wrong with the headroom meter?


----------



## Deadpool_25

budda said:


> The flip side of this is that once you can't see it regularly, you'll be thinking about it far less often. Odds are there's something you can put the money towards that will be more beneficial now. .



Maybe true for some but in @sakeido ’s case he’s still thinking about it. The money is an issue to consider and will have different levels of significance for each person as well.


----------



## cardinal

broangiel said:


> Wait what’s wrong with the headroom meter?



It doesn't seem to accurately indicate the headroom available. I have a very hard time believing my 5150 and 6505+ are out of headroom by 1 on their master volumes. But the Fractal sims don't match up to the amps until the master is at 3.75, at which point the headroom meter says it's well out of headroom.


----------



## Deadpool_25

cardinal said:


> The Fractal master just doesn't make any sense.
> 
> The 5150 sim and 5152 sim with the masters at 3.75 (!) match my 5150 and 6505 with their masters between 1 to 2. The Fractal headroom meter of course says that the power amp is way out of headroom by that point, but clearly the real amps are not clipping their power sections at those settings.
> 
> The Recto1 sim, on the other hand, needed the master around 1.33 to match up to the amp. Pushing much beyond that, the low end becomes completely overwhelming and woofy.
> 
> And the various 1959 sims and the AC30 sims have waaaaayyyyyy to much over drive if you set their masters to 10. They sound like my amps only with the masters back to around 6.
> 
> If I could trust the headroom meter and the idea that the max level setting is somewhat accurate, I'd stop complaining about the Fractal master volume. But as it is, is very very frustrating for me to use.
> 
> The B/M/T controls all seem very accurate to the real amps. Generally the input gain is right, which a few exceptions but that's easy to adjust. The 5150 presence control apparently is way off, but someone thankfully explained that to me (the sim on 2 is equivalent to the amp around 6, apparently, which sounds right).



Although the Fractal stuff is made to be very accurate in many ways, it’s important to understand and accept those areas where it’s not meant to be accurate at all. The MV is one of those areas and is designed to give you more control over the power section than you’d ever get from a real amp’s MV. IIRC, Headroom meter was implemented for exactly this reason; you can now see when the power section starts to clip.

You mention that the model with MV on 3.5 matches the 5150 with MV on 1 or 2 but that by then it he model is clipping. But that actually means the two settings don’t match. What are you saying matches? Volume? You should be dialing in tone with the MV and actual volume with the Level control (and on your outboard gear if reasonable). So in this case it seems like the MV of the model should be set much lower so as not to clip the power section, and the Level might need to be turned up.

Or maybe I’m misunderstanding the issue?

On the AC30, etc. I do remember that there was always a thing about turning the MV to 10 is basically making it a non-MV amp. Since the AC30 is a non-MV amp, 10 _should_ be pretty accurate. Of course that’s accurate to Fractal’s actual amps and I guess just how accurate is an unknown.

But the real bottom line here is to dial the MV in with your ears, not your eyes. If you’re expecting the MV setting in particular to equate from amp to model, you will definitely find yourself frustrated.


----------



## sakeido

Deadpool_25 said:


> Maybe true for some but in @sakeido ’s case he’s still thinking about it. The money is an issue to consider and will have different levels of significance for each person as well.



Money ain't a problem! I've got a baby on the way so I'm just moving stuff around because just dumping spare cash into hobbies is a little irresponsible in these circumstances  

The Recto was getting neglected because I got a Stiletto, which imo sounds waaaaaaaaaaaaay better but the tubes are dead. New quad of EL34s for it and I'll be fine. If I do get another Recto, it'll be a different version... probably a multi-watt, if prices come back to earth, or maybe a mini-rec


----------



## Deadpool_25

sakeido said:


> Money ain't a problem! I've got a baby on the way so I'm just moving stuff around because just dumping spare cash into hobbies is a little irresponsible in these circumstances
> 
> The Recto was getting neglected because I got a Stiletto, which imo sounds waaaaaaaaaaaaay better but the tubes are dead. New quad of EL34s for it and I'll be fine. If I do get another Recto, it'll be a different version... probably a multi-watt, if prices come back to earth, or maybe a mini-rec



I still kinda want a Badlander or mini-rec but I’m waiting to see what is coming down the line now that Mesa falls under Gibson. Adam Jones is an official Gibson endorsee now so I’m curious if they do something. And since they probably won’t anytime soon, it keeps me from buying another amp lol.


----------



## cardinal

Deadpool_25 said:


> Although the Fractal stuff is made to be very accurate in many ways, it’s important to understand and accept those areas where it’s not meant to be accurate at all. The MV is one of those areas and is designed to give you more control over the power section than you’d ever get from a real amp’s MV. IIRC, Headroom meter was implemented for exactly this reason; you can now see when the power section starts to clip.
> 
> You mention that the model with MV on 3.5 matches the 5150 with MV on 1 or 2 but that by then it he model is clipping. But that actually means the two settings don’t match. What are you saying matches? Volume? You should be dialing in tone with the MV and actual volume with the Level control (and on your outboard gear if reasonable). So in this case it seems like the MV of the model should be set much lower so as not to clip the power section, and the Level might need to be turned up.
> 
> Or maybe I’m misunderstanding the issue?
> 
> On the AC30, etc. I do remember that there was always a thing about turning the MV to 10 is basically making it a non-MV amp. Since the AC30 is a non-MV amp, 10 _should_ be pretty accurate. Of course that’s accurate to Fractal’s actual amps and I guess just how accurate is an unknown.
> 
> But the real bottom line here is to dial the MV in with your ears, not your eyes. If you’re expecting the MV setting in particular to equate from amp to model, you will definitely find yourself frustrated.



By "matches," I mean the tone of the sim with the master on 3.75 matches the tone of my actual 5150/6505+ with their masters just barely on.

The real amps sound huge and somewhat nearly out of control. The Fractal doesn't get there IMHO until the master is really high. If I keep the master within the headroom meter, it's just too tame. 

Maybe Fractal's AC30 and 1959s are very different from the ones that I've owned, that's true, but it would be weird.


----------



## sakeido

Deadpool_25 said:


> I still kinda want a Badlander or mini-rec but I’m waiting to see what is coming down the line now that Mesa falls under Gibson. Adam Jones is an official Gibson endorsee now so I’m curious if they do something. And since they probably won’t anytime soon, it keeps me from buying another amp lol.



the Badlander is made of pure unadulterated tone. just way too spendy for a 2 channel one trick pony, and it includes a bunch of crap I don't want (loadbox & IR loader). a used one would be nice but I haven't seen any go secondhand yet

an Invective would be fantastic too but they just don't exist on the secondhand market either


----------



## AboutBlank

I ignore the headroom meter.

By the look of the meter my Überschall preset should sound saggy as hell, master volume around 3-4.

If you take care of your gain staging…


----------



## budda

Deadpool_25 said:


> Maybe true for some but in @sakeido ’s case he’s still thinking about it. The money is an issue to consider and will have different levels of significance for each person as well.



Of course he is, it sold recently.

Dont mention it and see if he does in a month or two.


----------



## ATRguitar91

Mathemagician said:


> For a pedal board rig, any reason not to get the Seymour Duncan Powerstage 200 over the 170?


Price or used availability? Otherwise I'd say no.


----------



## broangiel

cardinal said:


> It doesn't seem to accurately indicate the headroom available. I have a very hard time believing my 5150 and 6505+ are out of headroom by 1 on their master volumes. But the Fractal sims don't match up to the amps until the master is at 3.75, at which point the headroom meter says it's well out of headroom.


It sounds like your issue is with the master taper, not the headroom meter. Cliff recently reorganized how he assigned tapers, which was a move I disagreed with, but I digress. I trust the headroom meter relative to the master volume in the box. I wouldn’t compare it to a real world counterpart.


----------



## RevDrucifer

cardinal said:


> The Fractal master just doesn't make any sense.
> 
> The 5150 sim and 5152 sim with the masters at 3.75 (!) match my 5150 and 6505 with their masters between 1 to 2. The Fractal headroom meter of course says that the power amp is way out of headroom by that point, but clearly the real amps are not clipping their power sections at those settings.
> 
> The Recto1 sim, on the other hand, needed the master around 1.33 to match up to the amp. Pushing much beyond that, the low end becomes completely overwhelming and woofy.
> 
> And the various 1959 sims and the AC30 sims have waaaaayyyyyy to much over drive if you set their masters to 10. They sound like my amps only with the masters back to around 6.
> 
> If I could trust the headroom meter and the idea that the max level setting is somewhat accurate, I'd stop complaining about the Fractal master volume. But as it is, is very very frustrating for me to use.
> 
> The B/M/T controls all seem very accurate to the real amps. Generally the input gain is right, which a few exceptions but that's easy to adjust. The 5150 presence control apparently is way off, but someone thankfully explained that to me (the sim on 2 is equivalent to the amp around 6, apparently, which sounds right).


 
Have you read Cliff’s notes (ha!) on why your amp is different from Fractal’s model?



> The models in our products are based on our in-house reference amps. If a model doesn't sound like your version of that amp it won't sound like our reference amp either.
> 
> Why?
> 
> 1. Component accuracy and drift.
> The components used in tube amps are low-cost, consumer-grade parts. They typically have tolerances of 10% or more. Over time the value of these components drifts. If your amp is old chances are it doesn't sound like it did when it was new. All our old reference amps are given a thorough checkup prior to modeling with any out-of-tolerance parts replaced.
> 
> 2. Potentiometer tolerance.
> A typical consumer potentiometer has a tolerance of up to +/- 20%. That's huge and that's end-to-end accuracy. On top of that the midpoint accuracy can be another +/- 20%. So if you have a 1M pot it could be as low as 800K. If it's linear it's midpoint should be 400K but could be as low as 360K. Now your 1M pot that should be 500K at halfway is only 360K. That's an error of 28%!
> 
> 3. Potentiometer taper.
> A big one. Potentiometers come in a variety of tapers: linear, 30A, 20A, 10A, etc. The taper on an audio taper pot (i.e. 30A) denotes the value of the pot at mid rotation. For example a 1M, 10A pot would be 10% of its value at "noon", or 100K.
> Manufacturers are constantly changing the taper of the pots in their amps. Sometimes the designer changes the taper as customers are reticent to turn knobs much away from noon. It's a weird psychological thing. Sometimes the manufacturer changes the taper due to availability concerns. Sometimes they change the taper when moving manufacturing locations. Sometimes they change the taper for no apparent reason at all.
> Another factor is that almost all amps don't use true log taper pots. They use "commercial log" taper which is a crude approximation to a log taper. This is because true log taper pots are expensive. Fractal Audio products use true log taper. This means that '7' on your amp is not exactly '7' on the model even if the pot in your amp is exactly 1M and its taper is exactly 10A. Why do we do it this way? Because the response is smoother and if true log pots were the same price as consumer log pots everyone would use true log taper.
> We model all amps assuming the pots are ideal. We assume the end-to-end resistance is exactly, say, 1M and the midpoint is, say, exactly 100K. We DO NOT use the values measured in our reference amp because no two amps are the same so we use the DESIGNERS INTENDED VALUE.
> What all this means is '3' on your amp is not necessarily the same as '3' on the Axe-Fx.
> Example: the Master Volume pot in a 5150 is a 1M, 15A audio taper pot. Theoretically it should be 150K at noon. On our reference amp it's about 15% low. If the reference amp's MV is set to '3' we have to set the model to around '2.5' to match. This is unsurprising due to the tolerance of the reference amp's pot.
> 4. Indicator accuracy.
> On many amps if you set a knob to noon it's not actually halfway in the pot's rotation. Why? Several reasons. Some amps are just weird. For example the Bogner Shiva's minimum rotation is around 6:00 and the maximum is around 4:00. So noon is actually past midpoint. Same with Soldanos. In other cases the knobs aren't oriented perfectly on the shaft. If it's a knurled shaft the knob may be off one tooth. If it's a smooth shaft then you're at the mercy of the human who put the knob on the shaft and tightened the set screw. This is why I prefer D-shafts. Finally the pot itself may be rotated relative to the panel.
> You can try this yourself. Turn the knob on your amp fully CCW. Note the position of the indicator. Now rotate fully CW. Note the marker position. If it's an old amp it's probably not symmetrical.
> Then there's the whole marking thing. Fender's are numbered 1-10. Soldanos go to 11. We use 0-10 so be wary of the amp's numbering.
> 
> 5. Power Tube Bias.
> Another big one. The transconductance (gain) of a power tube can vary greatly. This is why power tubes are color coded, sold in matched sets, etc.
> Amps come in two flavors: fixed bias and cathode bias. Fixed bias amps apply a "fixed" voltage to the grid of the power tubes. Cathode bias amps use a resistor between the cathode and ground to self bias the tube.
> Most, but not all, fixed bias amps allow the user to adjust the bias point of the amp. This allows the bias point to be set to an optimum value for the particular set of tubes installed (since the transconductance can vary greatly). Some fixed bias amps do not allow adjustment. Examples are Mesa/Boogies, 5150s, and several other brands/types. The drawback of this is that the bias can vary greatly depending upon the gain of the tubes installed. Due to this the manufacturers err on the safe side and the bias is usually much colder than the ideal value.
> Most cathode biased amps are not adjustable. Again you are at the mercy of the tube's gain but these amps tend to be biased hot to begin with and have higher transformer matching which prevents excursion outside of the S.O.A. (safe operating area).
> If the bias is adjustable where the manufacturer decides to bias their tubes is a matter of preference. Most manufacturers bias their tubes on the cold side to prevent premature failure and reduce warranty claims. Especially the larger manufacturers.
> This leads to the question of "what is the ideal bias point?" The pervasive school of thought is you adjust the bias so the idle dissipation is 60-70% of the tube's peak power rating. This is a safe approach and ensures that the tubes don't "red plate" and live fairly long and prosperous lives.
> My opinion is that the ideal bias point is NOT a function of the tube's power rating. It's the point at which the power amp's transfer function is most linear. Unfortunately operating the tubes at that point can result in exceeding the tube's S.O.A. So the optimum bias point depends on the tube's power rating, the transformer primary impedance (matching) and the user's tolerance to tube replacement frequency.
> For example, if we bias an EL34 based power amp at 60% peak dissipation it's actually running fairly cold. If we know that the transformer is slightly overmatched we can bias the tubes hotter, 70% or even more. This will result in a warmer tone but the tubes will wear faster.
> What does all this mean? Well, I bias the virtual tubes on the warm side. EL34s are biased at around 70% because we don't have to worry about them wearing out. 6L6s are biased a little colder, around 60% but this is actually as "warm" as the EL34s because of the higher plate dissipation of a 6L6.
> In practice this means that the models in the Axe-Fx will biased warmer than a new amp straight out of the box as most amps are biased cold (too cold IMO). After you wear the tubes out and bring it to a tech the tech will replace those tubes and bias them hotter than factory. So if you're comparing your new, out-of-the box 5150 with the Axe-Fx model the amp will probably sound "colder". Some people like this, many do not. If you like a colder sounding power amp it's just a knob twist away.



Long read, but it can probably answer everything discussed on the last two pages.


----------



## cardinal

RevDrucifer said:


> Have you read Cliff’s notes (ha!) on why your amp is different from Fractal’s model?
> 
> 
> 
> Long read, but it can probably answer everything discussed on the last two pages.



Yeah, I saw that. But it's a bit eye-roll inducing. I'm a complete nut and have owned many of the same amps, sometimes at the same time (at one time, I had three Rev F Rectos and three Marshall 2204s). My experience has been that as long as the amp is stock, they sound the same. 

Even mildly different amps tend to sound the same to me. Had a '71 Marshall and a '69 Marshall Super Lead at the same time. I had a hard time telling the difference. 

So the idea that the AFX might sound wildly different from my amp because of pot tolerances is a stretch IMHO. 

And I admit I chaff a bit at Fractal's defensiveness over the issue give how much emphasis they place on the accuracy of each update despite continually having updates.


----------



## Mathemagician

ATRguitar91 said:


> Price or used availability? Otherwise I'd say no.



Dope, that’s what I figured, thanks for confirming.


----------



## cardinal

cardinal said:


> Yeah, I saw that. But it's a bit eye-roll inducing. I'm a complete nut and have owned many of the same amps, sometimes at the same time (at one time, I had three Rev F Rectos and three Marshall 2204s). My experience has been that as long as the amp is stock, they sound the same.
> 
> Even mildly different amps tend to sound the same to me. Had a '71 Marshall and a '69 Marshall Super Lead at the same time. I had a hard time telling the difference.
> 
> So the idea that the AFX might sound wildly different from my amp because of pot tolerances is a stretch IMHO.
> 
> And I admit I chaff a bit at Fractal's defensiveness over the issue give how much emphasis they place on the accuracy of each update despite continually having updates.



Quoting myself: that said, I do really like the AFX after spending some time with it, and I appreciate that Fractal is in a tough spot. People say they want accuracy, but we kinda don't, and people are pulling Fractal in both directions. 

Things like allowing the models to have more-than-realistic power amp clipping is probably something that a lot of users want, but a lot of users probably simultaneously want to run the models with a leaner sounding power section if possible (i.e., I can get the Fractal 5150/5152 to sound much more "polished" and tight than the real amp by just running the Fractal master low). 

So maybe Fractal accommodates everyone by having a master volume that's maddeningly frustrating to dial in (to me at least).


----------



## laxu

cardinal said:


> So maybe Fractal accommodates everyone by having a master volume that's maddeningly frustrating to dial in (to me at least).



Their reasoning seems to be that the MV would behave the same on every amp instead of having amps with hair trigger touchy MVs and so on. Modeling the exact behavior of the pot is just not a worthy endeavour in that case.

You can maybe use the MV trim control to make it behave more like you are looking for if it just adjusts basically how the MV knob behaves. Never tried it.

But ultimately whatever gets you to your desired tone is alright. Even if the headroom meter says that it's clipping then it's still fine if you like how it sounds and feels. I have no idea how the headroom meter works and it's of course possible that some amps are actually out of headroom and distorting but it's not yet audible distortion.

Also make sure your input settings are correct as too high input might cause it to distort more. See if adjusting Input Trim does the trick.


----------



## cardinal

laxu said:


> Their reasoning seems to be that the MV would behave the same on every amp instead of having amps with hair trigger touchy MVs and so on. Modeling the exact behavior of the pot is just not a worthy endeavour in that case.
> 
> You can maybe use the MV trim control to make it behave more like you are looking for if it just adjusts basically how the MV knob behaves. Never tried it.
> 
> But ultimately whatever gets you to your desired tone is alright. Even if the headroom meter says that it's clipping then it's still fine if you like how it sounds and feels. I have no idea how the headroom meter works and it's of course possible that some amps are actually out of headroom and distorting but it's not yet audible distortion.
> 
> Also make sure your input settings are correct as too high input might cause it to distort more. See if adjusting Input Trim does the trick.



I'll stop shouting at clouds after this, but it's definitely not just a taper thing. There is no way to get my unboosted AC30 to overdrive as much as the Fractal model allows using only the gain and master controls. Same for the 1959s I've owned. 

And there's no way to get my 5150 or 6505+ to sound as tight or smooth as the Fractal models allow when the Fractal model has the master set lower. The real amps, to my ear, have a master volume that goes from basically inaudible to a sound like the Fractal set to 3.75. 

And all of this is ultimately fine. I dial down the master for some amps and up for others. But it's very frustrating to figure out and seems strange that it was coded this way.


----------



## laxu

cardinal said:


> I'll stop shouting at clouds after this, but it's definitely not just a taper thing. There is no way to get my unboosted AC30 to overdrive as much as the Fractal model allows using only the gain and master controls. Same for the 1959s I've owned.
> 
> And there's no way to get my 5150 or 6505+ to sound as tight or smooth as the Fractal models allow when the Fractal model has the master set lower. The real amps, to my ear, have a master volume that goes from basically inaudible to a sound like the Fractal set to 3.75.
> 
> And all of this is ultimately fine. I dial down the master for some amps and up for others. But it's very frustrating to figure out and seems strange that it was coded this way.



The taper can change the behavior a lot though and you are unlikely to find a true logarithmic taper in most real pots in the first place, just an approximation. 

My Bogner has an extremely gradual taper on its overdrive channel and to get its powertubes to distort it has to be turned to about 8/10 so almost all the way up. Meanwhile the clean channel works more like most amps where it starts to distort in the power section at about 5 or 6/10. Bogner just decided this was the best way to set it up and I agree with him. Works great like that.

I would try if resetting the channel first does anything different for you in case there is some setting that affects this.


----------



## Mathemagician

Seems to try to mansplain this back to myself it sound everyone is going back and forth that they modeled the amp and then they allow so many tone shaping possibilities that someone saying “I use a 5150” is not (that) useful anymore. 

So the user’s profile may very well be a great tone, but it simply does not exist amongst any real world amps that way. And instead of shying away from it fractal look at the various stats in the background to allow people to make any gain tone they want. 

They don’t care, it’s all in there, but they aren’t trying to make the dials 1-to-1 as it’s counterproductive from the perspective of giving as many tools as possible?


----------



## budda

Mathemagician said:


> They don’t care, it’s all in there, but they aren’t trying to make the dials 1-to-1 as it’s counterproductive from the perspective of giving as many tools as possible?



It's the fact that 1:1 isn't consistent due to component values.


----------



## MatrixClaw

cardinal said:


> Anyone playing with the Master Trim control?
> 
> I'm wondering if it's essentially like the "channel volume" control on amps like the Rectifier.
> 
> I've been having a terrible time dialing in the Recto1 sim, just way too much boomy low end. But if I run the sim's master somewhat high (3.75) but dial the master trim way back (.250), I think it's starting to match up the real amp.
> 
> And this is essentially how I run the real amp (overall master is hard bypassed; the channel volume sets the overall volume and is pretty darn low because the amp would kill me if it were higher).


Yes, when I had my Trem-O-Verb and I was A/Bing it with the FM3, I could keep all the settings equal between them, except the master, the FM3 required it to be quite a bit higher than the real amp to sound the same, but once it was there, they sounded nearly identical.



sakeido said:


> why is it when I have the amp and the FM3 it feels like the Fractal is so good I don't need the amp anymore
> 
> so then I sell the amp, now it feels like the real amp was way better and I just made a dumb decision


I know that feel. That's the main reason I haven't sold my 5153 or DSL yet. The Fractal sounds great, but I'm afraid I'll have the same reaction as you and end up buying them again


----------



## makecamera

@Deadpool_25 Do you use humbuster cables with your FM3/Stealth 4cm?


----------



## Deadpool_25

makecamera said:


> @Deadpool_25 Do you use humbuster cables with your FM3/Stealth 4cm?



I have before (I have some official ones), but last time I did it I just use some regular Mogami Silver instrument cables and had no issues.

Now I’m just running XLR to TS cables to the returns of the Stealth and the EL34. So no more 4CM.


----------



## Kyle Jordan

I know now just how easy it is for the kind of cultish mindset to develop around the Axe FX. 

I was out of town the end of last week and haven't played with my gear in almost a week. The last couple of hours (yeah, I'm a complete night owl) I've been playing again and that break really hammered home how much I am digging my III. 

I'm also coming to realize just how much of a dumbass I am for selling my Triaxis' (I owned two) many years ago. I can almost literally get everything I want using and tweaking the Tri models in the III. And am getting things not really possible with the actual preamps. Just kind of annoyed with myself that for chasing the rabbit down the hole away from what was very nearly my ideal set up. Lots of money and time down the drain. 

It really is funny just how rapidly the list of the gear I planned on purchasing is shrinking and morphing.


----------



## laxu

Kyle Jordan said:


> I know now just how easy it is for the kind of cultish mindset to develop around the Axe FX.
> 
> I was out of town the end of last week and haven't played with my gear in almost a week. The last couple of hours (yeah, I'm a complete night owl) I've been playing again and that break really hammered home how much I am digging my III.
> 
> I'm also coming to realize just how much of a dumbass I am for selling my Triaxis' (I owned two) many years ago. I can almost literally get everything I want using and tweaking the Tri models in the III. And am getting things not really possible with the actual preamps. Just kind of annoyed with myself that for chasing the rabbit down the hole away from what was very nearly my ideal set up. Lots of money and time down the drain.
> 
> It really is funny just how rapidly the list of the gear I planned on purchasing is shrinking and morphing.



I can see myself in that. I have a couple of tube amps that are "turn it on, bam, that's my preferred tone" type deals. But then I start thinking that it would be fun to have that little bit more or something for late night practice etc etc and suddenly you have a pile of gear around. My rig is more complicated than it was back when I just used an Axe-Fx 2 into a FRFR speaker.


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

It’s remarkable how quickly a rig goes from daisy chained Boss pedals into a midi controlled rack system.


----------



## RevDrucifer

cardinal said:


> Yeah, I saw that. But it's a bit eye-roll inducing. I'm a complete nut and have owned many of the same amps, sometimes at the same time (at one time, I had three Rev F Rectos and three Marshall 2204s). My experience has been that as long as the amp is stock, they sound the same.
> 
> Even mildly different amps tend to sound the same to me. Had a '71 Marshall and a '69 Marshall Super Lead at the same time. I had a hard time telling the difference.
> 
> So the idea that the AFX might sound wildly different from my amp because of pot tolerances is a stretch IMHO.
> 
> And I admit I chaff a bit at Fractal's defensiveness over the issue give how much emphasis they place on the accuracy of each update despite continually having updates.



The problem with that is that we all hear things differently and sometimes we don’t even know what we’re hearing until it’s been pointed out or you’ve gained some knowledge along the way. IE-you’re always learning how to dial in your sound better than you have previously. I’d hope, anyway.

There’s a reason why guys like EVH, Eric Johnson or SRV spend/spent so much time trying different amps or having amps built to try to recreate something they had previously. Richard Fortus spoke recently about trying to have Voodoo recreate the Dr. Feelgood Marshall he bought from Mick Mars and even though he gave them several heads from the same year, they couldn’t find any combination of components that made it sound like the Mick Mars head and they ended up building it from ground up. 

It’s not voodoo or anything, maybe in some slight cases where a failing component is removing some top end or something like that, but outside of that, without actually working on this stuff myself or having electrical engineering knowledge, I’d have to imagine Cliff isn’t far off base with this.

It’s not like he doesn’t admit when something isn’t up to snuff and he’s most definitely harder on himself than the naysayers are, which is why the dude doesn’t stop working. 

But at the end of the day, that stuff is only an issue to people who _need _a 1:1 digital version of their own rig. I often find myself asking how often it’s truly a need and how often it’s just the nature of the guitarist to get a hair up one’s ass about tone.


----------



## makecamera

Deadpool_25 said:


> I have before (I have some official ones), but last time I did it I just use some regular Mogami Silver instrument cables and had no issues.
> 
> Now I’m just running XLR to TS cables to the returns of the Stealth and the EL34. So no more 4CM.



Thanks! I had followed Leon Todd's 4CM guide/video, turned my amp on and had a lot of hum. Didn't really have time beyond that to troubleshoot, but it's good to know you didn't have any issues in 4CM so now I can mess with it later and see if I can get it to go away.


----------



## MatrixClaw

Kyle Jordan said:


> I know now just how easy it is for the kind of cultish mindset to develop around the Axe FX.
> 
> I was out of town the end of last week and haven't played with my gear in almost a week. The last couple of hours (yeah, I'm a complete night owl) I've been playing again and that break really hammered home how much I am digging my III.
> 
> *I'm also coming to realize just how much of a dumbass I am for selling my Triaxis' (I owned two) many years ago. I can almost literally get everything I want using and tweaking the Tri models in the III. And am getting things not really possible with the actual preamps. Just kind of annoyed with myself that for chasing the rabbit down the hole away from what was very nearly my ideal set up. Lots of money and time down the drain. *
> 
> It really is funny just how rapidly the list of the gear I planned on purchasing is shrinking and morphing.


This hits me in the feels for sure. In 2007 I bought a Mesa Mark IV. It was my second tube amp I ever owned (my first a 5150 combo) and I sold it 5 months later because I could only get tones out of the lead channel that I liked. I've continually dismissed that amp over the years and have gone through at least 50 amps since then searching for "THE" tone and last year the opportunity came up for me to trade for a Mark IV again and I decided to give it another shot. It's now my opinion that I just had no idea whatsoever how to use that amp as it's quickly become my favorite amp. So here we are, 14 years later and I'm back with the same amp I had then and it's not going anywhere, even though I still love my FM3 as well.


----------



## Deadpool_25

makecamera said:


> Thanks! I had followed Leon Todd's 4CM guide/video, turned my amp on and had a lot of hum. Didn't really have time beyond that to troubleshoot, but it's good to know you didn't have any issues in 4CM so now I can mess with it later and see if I can get it to go away.



Important note on Leon’s video:
He used and XLR to TRS cable which Fractal specifically recommends _against_ in their manual. That type of cable worked for him and has worked for some others but there have been people who’ve had problems. I ordered an XLR to TS from Amazon and it works well. I think it depends on your amp.

And hum can just sometimes be a problem with 4CM so if you’re having hum problems don’t be alarmed. You can try the Humbuster cables (can buy or just make them; it’s easy if you can solder even a little bit) or get something along the lines of that Ebtech Hum Eliminator which totally my killed the hum I was dealing with a different setup a few years back.


----------



## makecamera

Deadpool_25 said:


> Important note on Leon’s video:
> He used and XLR to TRS cable which Fractal specifically recommends _against_ in their manual. That type of cable worked for him and has worked for some others but there have been people who’ve had problems. I ordered an XLR to TS from Amazon and it works well. I think it depends on your amp.
> 
> And hum can just sometimes be a problem with 4CM so if you’re having hum problems don’t be alarmed. You can try the Humbuster cables (can buy or just make them; it’s easy if you can solder even a little bit) or get something along the lines of that Ebtech Hum Eliminator which totally my killed the hum I was dealing with a different setup a few years back.



Ahh, I probably should have read the manual then, haha. I did buy an XLR to TRS cable on his mention of it. If my troubleshooting yields no results, I'll try an XLR to TS and then humbuster if that doesn't work. Do you mind telling me which one you bought? Actually, I may have an XLR to TS laying around...


----------



## Deadpool_25

makecamera said:


> Ahh, I probably should have read the manual then, haha. I did buy an XLR to TRS cable on his mention of it. If my troubleshooting yields no results, I'll try an XLR to TS and then humbuster if that doesn't work. Do you mind telling me which one you bought? Actually, I may have an XLR to TS laying around...



I bought a pair of these (because I run two amps in stereo): TISINO Female XLR to 1/4 (6.35mm)... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CMRB8PL/?tag=sevenstringorg-20


----------



## cardinal

I assume you FM3 guys already know that Cygnus beta is here
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/fm3-firmware-version-4-00-beta-1.173199/


----------



## Mourguitars

cardinal said:


> I assume you FM3 guys already know that Cygnus beta is here
> https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/fm3-firmware-version-4-00-beta-1.173199/



All my Fractal friends called and texted me a few hours ago , ones bringing over his Friedman FRFR's over tomorrow to try out.....

Ill most likely wait before i update....i like using Axedit !

Fractal is awesome on there updates tho....

Mike


----------



## Deadpool_25

Yup! I’ll be trying it out tonight maybe. Or maybe sometime later this weekend. I would like to have FM3 Edit available but may just do it. But Ares is so good I’ll _definitely_ be backing it up before installing the beta (sometimes I don’t).


----------



## budda

Always make backups (and enjoy cygnus).


----------



## laxu

Cygnus seems to bring in the fullness that I felt was missing. I can't seem to embed my Soundcloud links but check this post on TGP and the one after it for FM3 3.03 vs 4.00 as well as FM3 4.00 vs QC 1.0.2.

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/fm3-cygnus-beta-now-out.2257256/post-32591079


----------



## Thrashman

Just downloaded it yesterday and gave it a spin for a couple hours

Holy fucking shit it sounds and feels GOOD


----------



## cardinal

For the first time since Cygnus was finalized for the AFX, I played around with it through headphones. Man it sounds really good. Actually used the new fancy speaker compression and time whatever thing in the amp block. 

Might actually buy a full-range cabinet to play through sometimes.


----------



## Mourguitars

cardinal said:


> For the first time since Cygnus was finalized for the AFX, I played around with it through headphones. Man it sounds really good. Actually used the new fancy speaker compression and time whatever thing in the amp block.
> 
> Might actually buy a full-range cabinet to play through sometimes.



I have a pair of Friedman FRFR coming over today to try out...im excited and will report back

Looks like they released the new Axedit for the new update over night...ill stay on the last update for at least today to try out the Friedman cabs

Just watched Leons vid this morning...sounds pretty awesome , he was editing on the FM3 like he was using a adding machine...ah these young gammers and quick fingers ! LOL

Mike


----------



## laxu

Mourguitars said:


> Just watched Leons vid this morning...sounds pretty awesome , he was editing on the FM3 like he was using a adding machine...ah these young gammers and quick fingers ! LOL



Haha, that's a good analogy. It does actually feel like that when you get good at using it from the front panel.

Should we request a tip calculator on the wishlist forum?


----------



## SubsonicDoom99

Mathemagician said:


> For a pedal board rig, any reason not to get the Seymour Duncan Powerstage 200 over the 170?



PowerStage 200 has the included Presence control as well as the ability to run a D.I. out, which is really nice. But I've found that the Presence control is more noticeably useful to me when I'm running stomp boxes through it, whereas when running the Fractal Ax8 I don't find myself needing the Presence as much. At this point I just use the PS200 for pedals and I use the PS170 for the Fractal and it works absolutely fine. So it's just a matter of whether you want/need those extra features in the PS200.


----------



## Mourguitars

Spent all day waiting on those Friedman cabs ....no show today it seems

Ill take a nap and play the rack tonight, I moved my FM3 off the desk and put it over on the Amp wall all set up , with my other mac with Axedit installed ...maybe on Sunday !

Mike


----------



## Guamskyy

I updated to the Cygnus beta and honestly can’t tell much of a difference 

only thing that changed for me is my overall output dropped a ton and had to spend some time fixing all my levels


----------



## sakeido

I've found huge differences on some patches, not so much on others. I think it sounds outstanding... they're chasing that last 5% of tube tone, so I don't think any update is going to be a total reinvention but now they might be down to the last 2%


----------



## laxu

Tried Cygnus through my Fryette PS-100 and 4x10 cab today. Sounded glorious and just as good as the QC with that same setup.

I have a little IKEA triangular shelf that I was using as kind of an accessory shelf next to my amp tower and I have the Fryette on one shelf and on top of it put a modeler on another shelf. Then I have the XSonic Airstep on the floor controlling the modeler wirelessly. No more bending over to adjust stuff! 

It looks so silly next to this two meter tall tower with two tube amps, a 1x12 and 4c10 cab stacked on a movable platform.


----------



## Mourguitars

Alright i finally got them here !

He brought over this LD Monitor he raves about these , he bought 4....he can adjust the EQ on it, ill try it out

Mike


----------



## MatrixClaw

Ah man, might have to finally update my FM3. I still haven't installed the firmware that had the Archon on it


----------



## Mourguitars

Gonna test out the Friedmans this weekend...ill be on the last firmware before Cygnus...time to go thru my IR's

Mike


----------



## Mourguitars

Did they fix that output issue on FW 3.03 ?

Ive tried everything....


----------



## budda

Mourguitars said:


> Did they fix that output issue on FW 3.03 ?
> 
> Ive tried everything....



What issue? Refer to the fractal forum. Also 3.04 beta is out iirc...


----------



## Mourguitars

Thanks for the reply Budda 

Im just playing mono for now, i now there's new FW out just want to play vs update...

Friedman cab sound very good, great actually....im messing with lots of parameters dialing stuff in

Its got a great feel with the Friedman cab.....it has it own feel, Tube feel is different of course im used to that....

Its the 1st time i played my FM3 in like 7-8 months...but man it sounds fantastic !

I havent got ear fatigue like i do when i had my BX8 and sub monitors but i have the FRFR cab down on it side as well

Mike


----------



## budda

Updating takes minutes. You dont need to tweak, it's all done upon recall. Then back to playing.

Signed, went to 16.02 this morning.


----------



## Mourguitars

I got them working...one of the Friedmans volume knob is kinda wonky ...has to be on 8 to work, run volume off FM3....i backed them down to noon , didnt know about the issue
Lol

Big botton end on these cabs tho...

Mike


----------



## Modus_Operandi

On the G66 waiting list....pretty darned stoked.


----------



## Deadpool_25

FM3 board complete.


----------



## sakeido

How much does that weigh altogether? Length?


----------



## technomancer

Deadpool_25 said:


> FM3 board complete.
> 
> View attachment 95000
> 
> View attachment 95001
> 
> View attachment 95002



Looks like something out of a 70s / 80s scifi movie


----------



## budda

That looks cool.


----------



## Deadpool_25

sakeido said:


> How much does that weigh altogether? Length?



23lbs, 6oz and it’s 33 7/8” (Temple Audio Duo 34)




budda said:


> That looks cool.



Sounds better than it looks. Cygnus is legit.


----------



## Mourguitars

I tried the YA DV77 cab pac and im pretty blow away with it..

Bass is tight sounds great thru the speakers no flub, mids and treble where they should be not spikey very clear and like the feel and pick attack....its pretty smooth and great for the down tuned stuff....its not a compressed sound at all

You hit a chord and say ...daum !

Havent Googled what speaker Mick modeled his sig speaker from i know its a Eminence...but i might buy a real pair

So far i like it better than the Zilla cab pac, been playing since noon and no ear fatigue...i love a V30 and greenbacks but its something i always try to dial out..i cant finger it yet

Your Rig looks fantastic Deadpool !....Congrats

Mike


----------



## Kyle Jordan

Don’t quote me on this, but I think the DV77s are supposed to sound like very broken in V30s. I’m trying to recall where I read or heard that and keep coming up blank.

While not the DV77, I’ll give York Audio some love and say that the Hiwatt 412SE pack I got recently is great. Love those Fanes.


----------



## Mourguitars

Kyle Jordan said:


> Don’t quote me on this, but I think the DV77s are supposed to sound like very broken in V30s. I’m trying to recall where I read or heard that and keep coming up blank.
> 
> While not the DV77, I’ll give York Audio some love and say that the Hiwatt 412SE pack I got recently is great. Love those Fanes.



Those DV77 sure are Clear and have great clarity and ticks all the boxes i was looking for , i bought that cab pac after him hawing around on a why not try them

I put them in the stock High gain presets , that to me...sounded like a blanket it over them ...again thats just me , i only used the Clean and low to mid gain stuff on my FM3...

Really opened up those High gain amps...man !

Now it feels more and sounds amp like...again thats just me ...and stuff sounds great with knobs at noon...ill suck some mids out with a TS...thats pretty much it !

Add all what i said with Fractals effects....Thru my Adam7's and Adam sub...wow

Mix 1, 2 ....57m / 121
Mix 4 ......58 / 160 mics

I stoped there for once...that is nice for a chance

Im really glad i bought that pac. on a whim ...i have every IR out there , but im really like Justins stuff , they all sound good

Glad you are liking the Hiwatt cabs Kyle !

Mike


----------



## Mourguitars

Deadpool_25 said:


> FM3 board complete.
> 
> View attachment 95000
> 
> View attachment 95001
> 
> View attachment 95002




Man thats one pretty tricked out board Deadpool ...ive been staring at that for about 10 min at the detail, its sharpe man .......Major Congrats !

Mike


----------



## SamSam

Ok I need Cygnus. How the fuck can I get my M1 Mac Mini to recognise my FM3?

I've tried three different cables, a usb-c adaptor, a hub, disconnected my interface.

I have never been able to get any activity out of connecting my FM3.

Yet it worked fine with a friend's 2019 macbook pro.

Appreciate any tips.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Mourguitars said:


> Man thats one pretty tricked out board Deadpool ...ive been staring at that for about 10 min at the detail, its sharpe man .......Major Congrats !
> 
> Mike



Thanks Mike! It was a fun project. I love it.

Kevin


----------



## Deadpool_25

SamSam said:


> Ok I need Cygnus. How the fuck can I get my M1 Mac Mini to recognise my FM3?
> 
> I've tried three different cables, a usb-c adaptor, a hub, disconnected my interface.
> 
> I have never been able to get any activity out of connecting my FM3.
> 
> Yet it worked fine with a friend's 2019 macbook pro.
> 
> Appreciate any tips.



Interesting. It works fine on my 2015 iMac. I’d suggest asking for help on the Fractal FM3 forum.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

Gotta say that fm3 board looks super slick.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Ataraxia2320 said:


> Gotta say that fm3 board looks super slick.



Thanks. Now I need to quit fucking around and _just play. _


----------



## budda

Deadpool_25 said:


> Thanks. Now I need to quit fucking around and _just play. _



plug in. play. fin.


----------



## sevenfoxes

Deadpool_25 said:


> FM3 board complete.
> 
> View attachment 95000
> 
> View attachment 95001
> 
> View attachment 95002


Sexy AF! Where’d ya get the different skins and buttons?


----------



## budda

sevenfoxes said:


> Sexy AF! Where’d ya get the different skins and buttons?



I know zenrigs has some stuff.


----------



## Deadpool_25

sevenfoxes said:


> Sexy AF! Where’d ya get the different skins and buttons?



The skin and protection cane from gear by ceba. The buttons from a guy on the Fractal forum. 

I have a couple plexiglass risers from ZenRigs but I’m not using them.


----------



## sevenfoxes

Deadpool_25 said:


> The skin and protection cane from gear by ceba. The buttons from a guy on the Fractal forum.
> 
> I have a couple plexiglass risers from ZenRigs but I’m not using them.


Nice! I was thinking about picking up an FM3 again just to save some tube life on my Stealth. Maybe it would pay off in the long run, lol.


----------



## Deadpool_25

sevenfoxes said:


> Nice! I was thinking about picking up an FM3 again just to save some tube life on my Stealth. Maybe it would pay off in the long run, lol.



Run the FM3 through the Stealth FX loop. It’s sooooo good


----------



## technomancer

sevenfoxes said:


> Nice! I was thinking about picking up an FM3 again just to save some tube life on my Stealth. Maybe it would pay off in the long run, lol.



If you're in the US I'll be listing mine tomorrow.


----------



## sevenfoxes

How’s the Archon model compared to the real deal?


----------



## cardinal

sevenfoxes said:


> How’s the Archon model compared to the real deal?



I didn't own them at the same time, but my impression is that they are in the same ballpark. I liked the amp a lot. One thing that stuck out to me is that the amp sounds a bit nasal unless the preamp is fully saturated. The model doesn't seem to do that, and for me at least seemed a bit easier to work with.


----------



## soul_lip_mike

So my FM3 is being replaced with a brand new unit under warranty since the USB port failed. This happened the same week that my FM9 arrived so I now have a brand new unused FM3 + FC6 that I am going to try to sell. I wish there was some way for me to just get a refund on that FM3 rather than have them go through the trouble of sending me a replacement then for me to turn around and sell it.


----------



## AboutBlank

It‘s cheaper to replace then to refund for every company…


----------



## budda

soul_lip_mike said:


> So my FM3 is being replaced with a brand new unit under warranty since the USB port failed. This happened the same week that my FM9 arrived so I now have a brand new unused FM3 + FC6 that I am going to try to sell. I wish there was some way for me to just get a refund on that FM3 rather than have them go through the trouble of sending me a replacement then for me to turn around and sell it.



You wont lose much, try not to sweat it


----------



## soul_lip_mike

Biggest pain in the ass is all the fees sites like reverb take which is the most likely place it’ll sell.


----------



## budda

soul_lip_mike said:


> Biggest pain in the ass is all the fees sites like reverb take which is the most likely place it’ll sell.



Then sell here or kijiji...


----------



## Deadpool_25

Post them on the Fractal forum.


----------



## soul_lip_mike

@Deadpool_25 I saw your pics of your FM3 kit with the white covers. Curious where you got those?


----------



## Deadpool_25

soul_lip_mike said:


> @Deadpool_25 I saw your pics of your FM3 kit with the white covers. Curious where you got those?



https://www.gearbyceba.com/


----------



## Breeding The Spawn

Is any one using the FM3 for Death Metal style music? I've searched for some sound demos but all I see are djent and rock tones. I've had my FM3 for a few months now and still struggling to find a good 90's/Modern Death Metal tone.


----------



## soul_lip_mike

It’s got ENGL amps which should work?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Breeding The Spawn said:


> Is any one using the FM3 for Death Metal style music? I've searched for some sound demos but all I see are djent and rock tones. I've had my FM3 for a few months now and still struggling to find a good 90's/Modern Death Metal tone.



JVM, 5150(+), 5153 Red, Recto + boost or Uber + Boost will do those no problem. Maybe even the Hebert and Mesa Marks. I don't go for the ubertight sound, just tight enough for chuggachugga clarity and those do it perfectly.


----------



## budda

Breeding The Spawn said:


> Is any one using the FM3 for Death Metal style music? I've searched for some sound demos but all I see are djent and rock tones. I've had my FM3 for a few months now and still struggling to find a good 90's/Modern Death Metal tone.



Angl Severe and go.


----------



## cwhitey2

Breeding The Spawn said:


> Is any one using the FM3 for Death Metal style music? I've searched for some sound demos but all I see are djent and rock tones. I've had my FM3 for a few months now and still struggling to find a good 90's/Modern Death Metal tone.


What amp models have you tried?

I can make almost any amp be/sound death metal....


----------



## broangiel

Breeding The Spawn said:


> Is any one using the FM3 for Death Metal style music? I've searched for some sound demos but all I see are djent and rock tones. I've had my FM3 for a few months now and still struggling to find a good 90's/Modern Death Metal tone.


Maybe try the M-Zone into the Tube Pre or directly into a Cab?


----------



## Breeding The Spawn

I've tried every model, and I am close but it just doesn't feel right, I still own the AX8 and that was very easy to dial in without having to do any extra eq'ing... I've tried every IR and some of them are good but something doesn't feel just right. I'm using a Laney FRFR cab. I think I spend most of my free time tweaking my presets here and there instead of playing.


----------



## budda

Breeding The Spawn said:


> I've tried every model, and I am close but it just doesn't feel right, I still own the AX8 and that was very easy to dial in without having to do any extra eq'ing... I've tried every IR and some of them are good but something doesn't feel just right. I'm using a Laney FRFR cab. I think I spend most of my free time tweaking my presets here and there instead of playing.



Sitting with a sound for more than a few minutes will help immensely. What are you running in the AX8? Try that in the FM3.

If you don't give your ears time to adjust to a new sound, you'll always dislike new sounds.


----------



## TedEH

^ Can confirm. I'm in that same boat right now, where I want to explore a bunch of amp models, but scrolling through them all and doing just quick 30 second auditions makes them all just blend together. If you spend a good hour or so with a chosen model, turn the dials, try boosts on it, try different levels of gain, different levels of volume, etc etc. - the feel differences become much more apparent. Gatta give an amp some time to tell you what it's all about.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Breeding The Spawn said:


> I think I spend most of my free time tweaking my presets here and there instead of playing.



It’s easy to get caught in that trap. Your FM3 is on Cygnus firmware right?

It’s possible you just don’t like the FM3 _through the Laney FRFR_. Do you have another way to monitor? Perhaps even just a real amp/cab you like? If so, you might try running the FM3 through its FX loop and into a real cab. IME that gives the best context for the tones that the FM3 is producing in general.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Breeding The Spawn said:


> Is any one using the FM3 for Death Metal style music? I've searched for some sound demos but all I see are djent and rock tones. I've had my FM3 for a few months now and still struggling to find a good 90's/Modern Death Metal tone.



For 90s Death Metal, I always use the Diezel Herbert amps. Fairly looser bottom end, not 5150 sounding, and huge sound. Try Herbert Ch 3. But the magic one is Das Metall with bass cut on and Saturation switch on. *chef's kiss*


----------



## Breeding The Spawn

Deadpool_25 said:


> It’s easy to get caught in that trap. Your FM3 is on Cygnus firmware right?
> 
> It’s possible you just don’t like the FM3 _through the Laney FRFR_. Do you have another way to monitor? Perhaps even just a real amp/cab you like? If so, you might try running the FM3 through its FX loop and into a real cab. IME that gives the best context for the tones that the FM3 is producing in general.



I'm starting think it might be my Laney FRFR, I have been thinking of picking up a Mesa 2x12 and a Seymour Duncan power amp. I sold my little Ampeg ss70 which I was using as a power amp. I have been thinking for a few weeks now of buying my first tube amp, recently had my eye on a Mesa MK V 90 watt combo which is 30 min away from where I am, but still keeping the FM3 for quiet practice or recording.


----------



## cardinal

It's definitely easier with a real cab. Removes a lot of guess work. I had used a Matrix Q12 as an FRFR and after lots of fussing sounded ok but I just could not get into it. I have an Atomic CLR now that seems entirely different and has sounded good since I first turned it on. But obviously not the same as just plugging into a power amp and real cab.

I would think something like the Brit 800 boosted with an OD or PEQ would do a '90s death metal thing.


----------



## SubsonicDoom99

Breeding The Spawn said:


> I'm starting think it might be my Laney FRFR, I have been thinking of picking up a Mesa 2x12 and a Seymour Duncan power amp. I sold my little Ampeg ss70 which I was using as a power amp. I have been thinking for a few weeks now of buying my first tube amp, recently had my eye on a Mesa MK V 90 watt combo which is 30 min away from where I am, but still keeping the FM3 for quiet practice or recording.


I've been using an Ax8 into a PowerStage 170 and Mesa cab for a while now and it works great, easy to dial in good death metal tones. Buddy I jam with has the FM3 and got the same setup as mine (SD Powerstage and Mesa cab) and said he's very happy with the results and seems to have no problem finding what he's looking for when dialing in tones on the FM3. He used to play the FM3 through his Mesa amp and it sounded great there too, but got the slightly more portable setup like mine for easier transport. So it very well could be the Laney FRFR that's causing the hiccup for you when trying to dial in the tones. I have no experience with the Laney so unfortunately I can't speak from experience on that, but it's definitely a good idea for you to try a different setup if possible to see if your results with the FM3 differ then.


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

Another power amp and cab user here. I'm not a pro or gigging musician so I'm more used to the sound of the amp through a cab. Removing IR selection process from the tone search massively simplifies things.
I find I need to spend time with each IR to allow my ears time to adjust or you never get one that you like.

As guitar is a hobby for me, I'd rather spend time playing than selecting IRs so tend to do 99% of playing through a cab and only really use IRs if I want to record (badly)


----------



## TedEH

^ What amp are you using? I'm finding that the power amp makes more of a difference than I think some of the talk around these would imply.

I tried to use my Crown power amp, but this means messing with the speaker interaction settings to try to optimize for your particular cab, and it still, to my ears, sounded and felt a bit artificial in a way I can't describe well. Not bad by any means, but if accuracy compared to tube amps is your thing, that amp didn't pair without a bunch of tweaking. I tried through the FX return of my Mark IV, and it's less artificial, but I found everything was weirdly bright. The best I've gotten so far is in the return of the Mark V:25 weirdly enough. You'd think _that_ would have been the bright sounding solution, but somehow it's the opposite.


----------



## cardinal

I use a Crest CA9 and select a Fractal impedance curve as close as I can to the actual cab in use. It helps that i usually have the real amp with me for the models that I use most, so I can quickly switch back and forth and figure it out without much trouble. 

I've tried tube power amps but was not too happy with the results unless I ran the Fractal master volumes very low. 

One thing with the real cabs IMHO, is that I have to turn the amp block speaker compression and time thing down as low as possible. Otherwise the feel to me is very strange and rubbery and it sounds very muffled.


----------



## cardinal

TedEH said:


> ^ What amp are you using? I'm finding that the power amp makes more of a difference than I think some of the talk around these would imply.
> 
> I tried to use my Crown power amp, but this means messing with the speaker interaction settings to try to optimize for your particular cab, and it still, to my ears, sounded and felt a bit artificial in a way I can't describe well. Not bad by any means, but if accuracy compared to tube amps is your thing, that amp didn't pair without a bunch of tweaking. I tried through the FX return of my Mark IV, and it's less artificial, but I found everything was weirdly bright. The best I've gotten so far is in the return of the Mark V:25 weirdly enough. You'd think _that_ would have been the bright sounding solution, but somehow it's the opposite.



Im more familiar with the Mark II and III circuit, but I assume the IV is similar, so the FX return is in an odd place and still runs through a bit of the preamp (which is why running the GEQ pedal in the loop isn't the same as just having it from the factory, which is placed after the preamp). I think since the Mark V, Mesa moved the loop to after the preamp.


----------



## TedEH

That would make some sense. I wasn't aware of this. Any idea what, if any, controls would still have an effect on the signal after the return?


----------



## Deadpool_25

TedEH said:


> ^ What amp are you using? I'm finding that the power amp makes more of a difference than I think some of the talk around these would imply.
> 
> I tried to use my Crown power amp, but this means messing with the speaker interaction settings to try to optimize for your particular cab, and it still, to my ears, sounded and felt a bit artificial in a way I can't describe well. Not bad by any means, but if accuracy compared to tube amps is your thing, that amp didn't pair without a bunch of tweaking. I tried through the FX return of my Mark IV, and it's less artificial, but I found everything was weirdly bright. The best I've gotten so far is in the return of the Mark V:25 weirdly enough. You'd think _that_ would have been the bright sounding solution, but somehow it's the opposite.



I use the power sections of my EVH amp(s). Seems very plug and play for me. I just disable cabinet modeling.


----------



## cardinal

TedEH said:


> That would make some sense. I wasn't aware of this. Any idea what, if any, controls would still have an effect on the signal after the return?


I don't think any of the controls will impact it (other than the GEQ); the tone stack is before the loop send. It's just that the loop return is before the last preamp gain stage so the signal gets colored by it.


----------



## TedEH

I looked up some of the documentation for that amp - the presence controls are also after the loop on the IV, which could make a difference. Which makes sense, since I think presence controls are part of the power section on most (all?) amps. Something to do with negative feedback.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Plugging in my Fractal to any Mesa Mark efx return colors the tone too much. You get the Mark presence and that tight power amp attack no matter what amp model you choose.

5150 style amps have more transparent power amps. Heck, even my last Rectifier was more modeler friendly than the Marks. The Rectos just sound like the Mesa 290 Poweramp. Lovely sag and openness on live settings.

I use SS poweramps and I used Leon Todd's Sinewave technique to dial in my cab resonance with the FM9.


----------



## cardinal

I think a tube power amp with no negative feedback and the presence control on zero is supposed to get as neutral as possible.


----------



## TedEH

cardinal said:


> I think a tube power amp with no negative feedback and the presence control on zero is supposed to get as neutral as possible.


I tried again this morning with the Mark IV - this time taking the presence knob all the way down and it sounds closer to neutral to me.


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

TedEH said:


> ^ What amp are you using? I'm finding that the power amp makes more of a difference than I think some of the talk around these would imply.
> 
> I tried to use my Crown power amp, but this means messing with the speaker interaction settings to try to optimize for your particular cab, and it still, to my ears, sounded and felt a bit artificial in a way I can't describe well. Not bad by any means, but if accuracy compared to tube amps is your thing, that amp didn't pair without a bunch of tweaking. I tried through the FX return of my Mark IV, and it's less artificial, but I found everything was weirdly bright. The best I've gotten so far is in the return of the Mark V:25 weirdly enough. You'd think _that_ would have been the bright sounding solution, but somehow it's the opposite.



I'd suggest trying a flat power amp like the powerstage.

Im using the return loop on a Boss Waza TAE into a Zilla 212. As the Waza power amp is flat, I set the AxeFx settings to SS amp and cab (default is FRFR) and change the speaker impedance to the Godzilla cab as res freq for that cab curve is only .5 out from the measurements I took using Leon Todd's video.

I've used the return loop on a 5153 50watt and directly compared the model. I couldn't hear discernible difference. I perceived I could feel one but I'd wager that if I were blindfolded it'd be pot luck.


----------



## TedEH

The Thing Upstairs said:


> I'd suggest trying a flat power amp like the powerstage.


Is a powerstage going to be any more flat than the Crown I'm using already? It's a PA amp, it's meant to be pretty transparent, I would think.

I actually did get something much better out of it today:
I've been finding the speaker curve settings are a great way to accidentally shoot yourself in the foot. I kept picking the Recto Strait preset as a starting point but it turns out that curve is pretty extreme. I had done the whole sine sweep thing, and also tried to measure with an eq and some chugs through an amp, and found that both my own cab and a Recto cab I tried recently both land pretty close to 120hz - which is where the Recto Small preset has it by default. That one's a much less extreme curve overall. When I picked this one I'm suddenly back in very-convincing territory. I think I've learned from this that it's not juuuuust the LF knob that matters. Even with the other preset altered to match that 120hz, the rest of the curve was too extreme and was making any amp I stuck it on get way too bright.

You certainly can't say this thing doesn't have a learning curve. Each AHA moment seems to come with a significant improvement in the results I'm getting though. So that's good.


----------



## cardinal

TedEH said:


> Is a powerstage going to be any more flat than the Crown I'm using already? It's a PA amp, it's meant to be pretty transparent, I would think.
> 
> I actually did get something much better out of it today:
> I've been finding the speaker curve settings are a great way to accidentally shoot yourself in the foot. I kept picking the Recto Strait preset as a starting point but it turns out that curve is pretty extreme. I had done the whole sine sweep thing, and also tried to measure with an eq and some chugs through an amp, and found that both my own cab and a Recto cab I tried recently both land pretty close to 120hz - which is where the Recto Small preset has it by default. That one's a much less extreme curve overall. When I picked this one I'm suddenly back in very-convincing territory. I think I've learned from this that it's not juuuuust the LF knob that matters. Even with the other preset altered to match that 120hz, the rest of the curve was too extreme and was making any amp I stuck it on get way too bright.
> 
> You certainly can't say this thing doesn't have a learning curve. Each AHA moment seems to come with a significant improvement in the results I'm getting though. So that's good.



ive not messed with the Recto Straight curve, but IMHO something is wrong with the Recto Large Curve. It's super scoops and bright and boomy. It does not seem to replicate any Recto cab I've had (maybe 5? I know; im an idiot). Perhaps something is wrong with thr Recto Straight Curve too. 

The Recto Slant curve seems much closer to the OS412s I've had (which are all slants).


----------



## TedEH

I think the recto cab I was using was the normal sized one, not the OS. I think....? My personal cab is definitely smaller than that. I think I had figured all v30 cabs must be the same-ish, but looking at the differences between those presets, I'm either very wrong, or those curves are very wrong. I read on a thread somewhere on the Fractal forum that supposedly a _lot_ of v30 loaded generic cabs end up having the LF land pretty close to 120hz. I have no idea how much truth there is to that.


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

Have you tried this?


----------



## Xaeldaren

Guys, I got a new job and I can now afford an upgrade from the Pod Go. Trying to be objective as possible, would the FM3 be a massive upgrade in sound quality/feel? I'm very, very happy with the Pod Go, but it's definitely a compromise because it was all I could afford at the time. It could be a grass is greener thing; I'm not looking to spend the money if the difference between the two isn't significant.


----------



## laxu

With the speaker impedance curves it's best not to get too hung up on what type of cab it is but just use what sounds and feels good to you. I still can't decide if I like the "resistive load" setting or one of the speaker impedance curves when hooking the FM3 up to my Fryette Power Station 100. It seems to vary by amp model.


----------



## cardinal

Power Station imparts its own impedance curve, so you can end up double stacking. Switches to flat, and presence and resonance off would be as close to flat as possible, I assume.


----------



## TedEH

The Thing Upstairs said:


> Have you tried this?


I have. Every time I mention using a real cab, most of what I said gets ignored and that video is thrown at me.  I literally described doing some of that stuff maybe two or three posts above.


----------



## cwhitey2

I finally upgraded to Cygnus last night 

I feel like the output volume/levels are all whacked after the update. I played around with some of the settings to get it close to what I had or think I had previously (not sure what the settings were).

Did this happen to everyone after the update?


----------



## budda

cwhitey2 said:


> I finally upgraded to Cygnus last night
> 
> I feel like the output volume/levels are all whacked after the update. I played around with some of the settings to get it close to what I had or think I had previously (not sure what the settings were).
> 
> Did this happen to everyone after the update?



If there was a level change (probably) in cygnus, its in the release notes.


----------



## cwhitey2

budda said:


> If there was a level change (probably) in cygnus, its in the release notes.


I looked and couldn't find anything related to the levels changing.


----------



## broangiel

cwhitey2 said:


> I looked and couldn't find anything related to the levels changing.


Some of the MV tapers were corrected in 17.01. That could contribute to varying levels on existing presets.


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

TedEH said:


> I have. Every time I mention using a real cab, most of what I said gets ignored and that video is thrown at me.  I literally described doing some of that stuff maybe two or three posts above.



Sorry dude, my bad


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

Xaeldaren said:


> Guys, I got a new job and I can now afford an upgrade from the Pod Go. Trying to be objective as possible, would the FM3 be a massive upgrade in sound quality/feel? I'm very, very happy with the Pod Go, but it's definitely a compromise because it was all I could afford at the time. It could be a grass is greener thing; I'm not looking to spend the money if the difference between the two isn't significant.



No, especially if you are already very very happy with the pod go. You have GAS.

I had a helix before getting an AxeFx. I prefer the UI, sound and the feel of the AxeFx but with the right IRs the line 6 kit is excellent too.
The feel and sound thing is subjective, only you can answer if it is worth it. 

One stand out thing for me with the fractal gear is the number and frequency of updates. That is something the competition don't do in my experience


----------



## Mourguitars

Mr Deadpool or Budda....if you want to play the FM3 with a Real Cab /Poweramp all you do is go in AxEdit and go to setup and disable / turn off power amp and cab block correct ?

Thats it ?

Mike


----------



## budda

Mourguitars said:


> Mr Deadpool or Budda....if you want to play the FM3 with a Real Cab /Poweramp all you do is go in AxEdit and go to setup and disable / turn off power amp and cab block correct ?
> 
> Thats it ?
> 
> Mike



And bypass the cab block in your preset/make sure your routing is correct. Try both ways though, you may like it with power amp modelling on.


----------



## TedEH

It's also going to depend on the kind of power amp you're using. I've been playing around with putting it through the fx return of tube amps, and it does sound good this way, but most presets end up getting kinda over-cooked if you leave the poweramp sim on. IMO it's ok-ish for cleans that way, but any gain starts sounding kinda gnarly, and not in a great way. BUT if you're using a solid state amp, a PA amp, etc - something other than a tube amp - you probably want that poweramp sim to be still on, and might want to go as far as tweaking the values in the speaker page - see the video posted a page or two ago by that Leon guy who seems to be 90% of the Fractal content on youtube for some reason.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Mourguitars said:


> Mr Deadpool or Budda....if you want to play the FM3 with a Real Cab /Poweramp all you do is go in AxEdit and go to setup and disable / turn off power amp and cab block correct ?
> 
> Thats it ?
> 
> Mike



Like @budda said, disable the cab block as you’ll _almost_ certainly want that off. You never know until you try it though—some few people actually like it on even through a real cab. 

The power amp is much less certain whether you’ll want it on or off. I suggest trying it both ways with a few different amp models to see what you prefer. I typically leave mine on.


----------



## Mourguitars

Thanks for the reply guys....i Did Not like it with the power amp disabled...ill try it enabled later this morning

I did fade out the cab block...Im playing it Stereo with the Velocity 300 but i have other Tube stereo power amps to play thru ...including a matrix i can borrow

I spent a few hours with the Power amp off and was ugh...yesterday

I was playing the FM3 thru my Adam7's and Adam8 sub, on my desk.....i want to migrate or incorporate it into my rack or play stand alone stereo....I did try leons way of the Effects loop method aka 4CM. with a head...i didnt care for it...i really havent given the FM3 much love since i bought it from a friend back when they came out...so i guess its time for the head scratching to begin...its a windy chilly day here in Fl....so

LOL

Thanks again for the reply's guys !

Mike


----------



## Deadpool_25

Mourguitars said:


> Thanks for the reply guys....i Did Not like it with the power amp disabled...ill try it enabled later this morning
> 
> I did fade out the cab block...Im playing it Stereo with the Velocity 300 but i have other Tube stereo power amps to play thru ...including a matrix i can borrow
> 
> I spent a few hours with the Power amp off and was ugh...yesterday
> 
> I was playing the FM3 thru my Adam7's and Adam8 sub, on my desk.....i want to migrate or incorporate it into my rack or play stand alone stereo....I did try leons way of the Effects loop method aka 4CM. with a head...i didnt care for it...i really havent given the FM3 much love since i bought it from a friend back when they came out...so i guess its time for the head scratching to begin...its a windy chilly day here in Fl....so
> 
> LOL
> 
> Thanks again for the reply's guys !
> 
> Mike



Hmmm. Are you talking about different setups within single sentences?

The Velocity 300 is a solid state power amp isn’t it? And Matrix makes solid state amps too as far as I know. There’s no reason to turn power amp modeling off with those. What tube power amps do you have?

Also, I didn’t see you mention any real/traditional guitar cab. If you aren’t using a real guitar cab, you won’t like cab modeling off.

Whether or not 4CM or running straight into an amp’s FX loop sounds good depends a lot on the amp you’re using. Some FX loops sound great, others sound quite meh (and of course it’s very subjective as well, I love my FM9 through my EVH but someone else might hate it).

Leon makes great Fractal content but he did one thing in his 4CM video that kinda bugs me—he used an XLR to *TRS* cable. Now that _can_ work but that’s very dependent on what amp you’re using. What you really want to use is an XLR to *TS* cable. *The manual very specifically mentions this and does so in bold print.* A number of people have followed Leon’s method and had problems like getting no sound, crackling, and weak sound. Switching to the correct cable usually solves those issues.


----------



## Mourguitars

Deadpool_25 said:


> Hmmm. Are you talking about different setups within single sentences?
> 
> The Velocity 300 is a solid state power amp isn’t it? And Matrix makes solid state amps too as far as I know. There’s no reason to turn power amp modeling off with those. What tube power amps do you have?
> 
> Also, I didn’t see you mention any real/traditional guitar cab. If you aren’t using a real guitar cab, you won’t like cab modeling off.
> 
> Whether or not 4CM or running straight into an amp’s FX loop sounds good depends a lot on the amp you’re using. Some FX loops sound great, others sound quite meh (and of course it’s very subjective as well, I love my FM9 through my EVH but someone else might hate it).
> 
> Leon makes great Fractal content but he did one thing in his 4CM video that kinda bugs me—he used an XLR to *TRS* cable. Now that _can_ work but that’s very dependent on what amp you’re using. What you really want to use is an XLR to *TS* cable. *The manual very specifically mentions this and does so in bold print.* A number of people have followed Leon’s method and had problems like getting no sound, crackling, and weak sound. Switching to the correct cable usually solves those issues.



Yes...the Velocity300 is solid state, Stereo power amps are Mesa 2:90 and i bought a Carvin TS100 when they were blowing them out...thats a nice flat response tube amp vs the Mesa 2:90....Tom Morris wants me to buy his Matrix , i mean sure ill try it and check it out but

Tom from the fractal forum is my guitar buddy since 82ish...man , im dating myself ...we done a shootout with different Poweramps thru my Mesa412 like in 2016 i couldn't hear the difference tube vs solidstate..maybe in feel ...i believe we left the Power amp modeling on like i done today...anyways...Tom dials in the best Effects and tones that sound great in a mix...he has that ear...he gigs a lot 

Poweramp modeling done the trick...sounds good thru the Velocity300 with the power amp modeling ON vs OFF like i had yesterday.. one thing i messed with was the power amp sag..some amps i left it where it was from .50 to 2.00 area

Sorry for any confusion Deadpool....Migraines..oh boy they are brutal this time of year with weather changes...actually Vestibular migraines with vertigo...so me trying to read a manual on a screen is pretty near impossible with me losing my place all the time with jumping eyes due to vertigo...lol...im used to it now when they hit me ....but..Wow...i just enjoy the ride until they pass

I bought some Humbuster cables a while back...im using them and zero noise from the output2 left/right to the Velocity300 stereo inputs...

I do remember , that there is something you can do to make it feel a little less stiff feeling on some amps , a little more real if thats the term...but i havent watched any fractal vids in over a year or more..

Standout amps so far are the ..
5153
Atomica
Soldano
And the Fiedman BE
I always use a boost pedal to add gain...gain on amp at 10am to 1pm ish...same as i do with my real amps

I still cant get a sound i like out of a Marshall and there version of the 5150 for some reason...giving my ears a break after 5 hrs playing...ill dial it in !

Mike


----------



## TedEH

Deadpool_25 said:


> Leon makes great Fractal content


I dunno why but it bugs me on some level that so much "content" about Fractal is just that one guy. If you ask a question, you get pointed to "just go do what Leon does, here's a video". As far as I can tell, he's just some random gear enthusiast. For as popular as these units are, I'm surprised there's not more depth of content/tutorials from anyone else.


----------



## budda

TedEH said:


> I dunno why but it bugs me on some level that so much "content" about Fractal is just that one guy. If you ask a question, you get pointed to "just go do what Leon does, here's a video". As far as I can tell, he's just some random gear enthusiast. For as popular as these units are, I'm surprised there's not more depth of content/tutorials from anyone else.



There are, but Leon comes across as genuine and not spammy compared to maaany YT types. Bergs has stuff, cooper carter has stuff, Mark Day, and Im sure Fractal has some in-house videos.


----------



## Deadpool_25

TedEH said:


> I dunno why but it bugs me on some level that so much "content" about Fractal is just that one guy. If you ask a question, you get pointed to "just go do what Leon does, here's a video". As far as I can tell, he's just some random gear enthusiast. For as popular as these units are, I'm surprised there's not more depth of content/tutorials from anyone else.



@budda is correct there are other folks making content as well and quite a bit of it, but Leon does make a ton of Fractal videos. I don’t really get the annoyance though. Leon’s videos are usually quite informative and he does come across as very genuine and he not shilly at all. But man, sometimes stuff can just rub us the wrong way for no reason we can figure out. No biggie. It is what it is.


----------



## TedEH

Pretty much, it is what it is. It's not that I don't like that guy or something, I've just sort of had my fill of that guy and would like some other perspectives.


----------



## budda

TedEH said:


> Pretty much, it is what it is. It's not that I don't like that guy or something, I've just sort of had my fill of that guy and would like some other perspectives.



If I had more knowledge and the desire to run a YT channel, you'd probably see mine in HD


----------



## cardinal

My YouTube tips channel for the AFXIII would have only a single video maybe 60 seconds long? 1) never touch the advanced parameters, 2) dial it in where you think it sounds good, then reduce the gain by 1.5 and reduce the master by half, now you probably actually sound good; 3) buy York IRs, use Mix01 and set the speaker impedance curve to match.


----------



## laxu

cardinal said:


> Power Station imparts its own impedance curve, so you can end up double stacking. Switches to flat, and presence and resonance off would be as close to flat as possible, I assume.



The switches are only in effect when a tube amp is connected to it. They simply turn the loadbox from reactive to resistive.


----------



## laxu

TedEH said:


> I dunno why but it bugs me on some level that so much "content" about Fractal is just that one guy. If you ask a question, you get pointed to "just go do what Leon does, here's a video". As far as I can tell, he's just some random gear enthusiast. For as popular as these units are, I'm surprised there's not more depth of content/tutorials from anyone else.



Cooper Carter has a lot of content but much of it is paid afaik so people refer to Leon more. It's not really any different than say Jason Sadites having a lot of Helix content and people referring to that. It doesn't mean they are some authority on the modelers, just people who present things in a meaningful way with years of content to look at that usually covers the common and many of the uncommon ways to use it. It's easier to send someone to go check out a video rather than write a wall of text to describe the solution.


----------



## Mathemagician

Is Leon Todd still the main go-to for learning the FM3? Gonna start actually using this thing. Would love any rec of someone who builds a basic patch from scratch.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Mathemagician said:


> Is Leon Todd still the main go-to for learning the FM3? Gonna start actually using this thing. Would love any rec of someone who builds a basic patch from scratch.


I’d say Rosh Roslin has a pretty good Fractal channel for those kinda starting out.


----------



## TheShreddinHand

I'm sure it's covered in this thread guys so apologies for not searching all the way through it, but can a FM3 and a FC6 essentially do everything a FM9 can? Just 2 boxes instead of 1? Or is there something else missing that the FM9 would be able to do that the FM3+FC6 combo cannot?

EDIT: Disregard my post, I see the handy comparison on Fractal's website! Duh!


----------



## Deadpool_25

TheShreddinHand said:


> I'm sure it's covered in this thread guys so apologies for not searching all the way through it, but can a FM3 and a FC6 essentially do everything a FM9 can? Just 2 boxes instead of 1? Or is there something else missing that the FM9 would be able to do that the FM3+FC6 combo cannot?
> 
> EDIT: Disregard my post, I see the handy comparison on Fractal's website! Duh!


Yeah I’m guessing you see this but the FM9 is significantly more powerful in terms of CPU and having some additional blocks available (such as being able to use two amp blocks, two cab blocks, etc.).


----------



## sevenfoxes

Been spending quite a bit of time with the FM3, and it’s sounding better and better to me, probably because I am learning how to use it more efficiently and get the most out of it (still not using the app for the most part).

The EVH 5150 loop helps tremendously with getting a great tone right off the bat, as it’s one of the cleanest and clearest loops I’ve ever used. I wish all fx loops were this good.

But I’m liking the FM3 so much to the point where I am considering selling all of my tube amps (except for the EVH, obviously).

Before i do that I need to make sure that I’m totally happy with the models of my favorite amps. The Archon 50 is one of those amps that I haven’t been able to fully replicate on the FM3, but am hoping to closer and closer (same with the recto models).

@Deadpool_25 Have you tried to replicate your Tremoverb with the FM3? Had any luck? If so, would you mind sharing which amp model you’re using?


----------



## laxu

sevenfoxes said:


> But I’m liking the FM3 so much to the point where I am considering selling all of my tube amps (except for the EVH, obviously).
> 
> Before i do that I need to make sure that I’m totally happy with the models of my favorite amps. The Archon 50 is one of those amps that I haven’t been able to fully replicate on the FM3, but am hoping to closer and closer (same with the recto models).


I think that's the wrong approach. It should not be "how can I replicate X amp that is not directly modeled?" but "can I use what is in there to get my absolute favorite tones?" In the amp block alone you can tweak advanced stuff if you want, you can choose from nearly 300 amp models, you can use input/output EQ to shape things up...there's just so many things you can do to get this where you like 'em.

My go-to tones are something like all eras of Gary Moore from blues to hard rock. One of my favorite models for that is the Cornford MK50 model on the Fractal. I have played the real amp and I would never buy it because it's expensive, heavy and way, way too loud to be practical for me. So this is a case of the model doing better than the real amp. On the flipside I've never played a real Dumble, I've never heard one played live. But I found I got some real nice tones out of the Fractal Dumble models. Are they accurate? I don't know, I just got results I liked.

So I suggest just changing your outlook on how you approach the thing.


----------



## Deadpool_25

sevenfoxes said:


> Been spending quite a bit of time with the FM3, and it’s sounding better and better to me, probably because I am learning how to use it more efficiently and get the most out of it (still not using the app for the most part).
> 
> The EVH 5150 loop helps tremendously with getting a great tone right off the bat, as it’s one of the cleanest and clearest loops I’ve ever used. I wish all fx loops were this good.
> 
> But I’m liking the FM3 so much to the point where I am considering selling all of my tube amps (except for the EVH, obviously).
> 
> Before i do that I need to make sure that I’m totally happy with the models of my favorite amps. The Archon 50 is one of those amps that I haven’t been able to fully replicate on the FM3, but am hoping to closer and closer (same with the recto models).
> 
> @Deadpool_25 Have you tried to replicate your Tremoverb with the FM3? Had any luck? If so, would you mind sharing which amp model you’re using?


I have not tried to replicate the Tremoverb. I could give it a shot (remember, I’m on the FM9 now but that won’t matter) and certainly don’t mind doing so, but what mode on the amp are we talking about?



I have done some direct comparisons with amps in the past including the 6505 and EVH 50W 6L6. I’ve also tried to match the clean of my California Tweed and just kinda casually scoped out the difference between the EVH 100w models vs the real 50W amp.

Although I don’t love the initial “you’re doing it wrong” tone, @laxu (no offense) has a good point overall.

I have kinda dropped doing direct comparisons with the intent of matching an amp I have. I still like to see people do them for entertainment’s sake, but for my own use I kinda stopped that. The reason is that if I just plug into the FM9 and play almost any amp model (through the EVH as you know) I can get tones I at least really like, and often absolutely love. It’s independent from and comparison to real amps.

When I compared to the 50W blue I was like…yeah that’s the same sound. When I was trying to match the California Tweed—a model that’s not in the Fractal—I did some tweaking and quickly got pretty close using some input EQ. Then I found myself working for like 30 minutes to try to get the last little bit. Then it hit me: the model I had dialed it sounded just as good as the California Tweed—debatably better. It was slightly different but it was at least equally good to me. So why was I still tweaking?

We have this baked in idea that the real amp is just generally superior so we fight to make the models sound like the real amps. It’s completely understandable given the things themselves and where they evolved from, but if we can step away from that mentality it can be incredibly liberating. I know first hand though just how difficult it is to change your thinking and get to that place.

Edit: on matching the Archon 50, I don’t have any experience with that amp but, again with a nod to @laxu , try using some input EQ in the amp block. I find that’s a good place to start when kinda working towards making a model sound more like a real amp.


----------



## sevenfoxes

Deadpool_25 said:


> I have not tried to replicate the Tremoverb. I could give it a shot (remember, I’m on the FM9 now but that won’t matter) and certainly don’t mind doing so, but what mode on the amp are we talking about?
> 
> 
> 
> I have done some direct comparisons with amps in the past including the 6505 and EVH 50W 6L6. I’ve also tried to match the clean of my California Tweed and just kinda casually scoped out the difference between the EVH 100w models vs the real 50W amp.
> 
> Although I don’t love the initial “you’re doing it wrong” tone, @laxu (no offense) has a good point overall.
> 
> I have kinda dropped doing direct comparisons with the intent of matching an amp I have. I still like to see people do them for entertainment’s sake, but for my own use I kinda stopped that. The reason is that if I just plug into the FM9 and play almost any amp model (through the EVH as you know) I can get tones I at least really like, and often absolutely love. It’s independent from and comparison to real amps.
> 
> When I compared to the 50W blue I was like…yeah that’s the same sound. When I was trying to match the California Tweed—a model that’s not in the Fractal—I did some tweaking and quickly got pretty close using some input EQ. Then I found myself working for like 30 minutes to try to get the last little bit. Then it hit me: the model I had dialed it sounded just as good as the California Tweed—debatably better. It was slightly different but it was at least equally good to me. So why was I still tweaking?
> 
> We have this baked in idea that the real amp is just generally superior so we fight to make the models sound like the real amps. It’s completely understandable given the things themselves and where they evolved from, but if we can step away from that mentality it can be incredibly liberating. I know first hand though just how difficult it is to change your thinking and get to that place.
> 
> Edit: on matching the Archon 50, I don’t have any experience with that amp but, again with a nod to @laxu , try using some input EQ in the amp block. I find that’s a good place to start when kinda working towards making a model sound more like a real amp.


Thanks! 

Either the Vintage or Modern mode, not too picky. So far I’ve only had success with getting the recto models on the FM3 to sound like a decent/good emulation.

I’ll spend some more time tweaking with it, but LMK if you make any discoveries, especially since we’re both using the same power amp. 

Thanks again!


----------



## Deadpool_25

sevenfoxes said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Either the Vintage or Modern mode, not too picky. So far I’ve only had success with getting the recto models on the FM3 to sound like a decent/good emulation.
> 
> I’ll spend some more time tweaking with it, but LMK if you make any discoveries, especially since we’re both using the same power amp.
> 
> Thanks again!


Ok. I’ll dial in the Tremoverb on both of those and then work a little with the FM9 through the EVH and see if I can get close.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Ok just spent a little time trying this out. I setup like this:

2018 Strandberg Fusion* > GigRig ABY
ABY A > FM9 > EVH 50w 6L6 Return > Custom 2x12 #1**

ABY B > Tremoverb input > Custom 2x12 #2**

* The Fusion has a Suhr SSH+ in the bridge. It’s like a hot PAF I think.
** The 2x12s are identical and both have a V30/Creamback mix

Experiment 1: Tremoverb Vintage High Gain

I set the Tremoverb to what I thought was a great hard rock to metal tone. It sounds _great_ and isn’t flubby at all even without a boost. Such an awesome amp. Anyway…

Tremoverb settings:
- Vintage High Gain mode (on orange; no cloning)
- Silicon rectification
- Master 10:00 (it’s not as loud as you might expect)
- Presence 11:00
- Bass 9:30
- Mid 11:00
- Treble 1:00
- Gain 1:30

I tried a few of the Fractal Recto models but struggled until I got to Recto2 Red Vintage. The Recto1 and “Orange” models were overly bassy and didn’t have even close to enough gain or the right type of gain. Recto2 Red Vintage was a better starting point. I still ended up tweaking quite a bit (all from the front panel btw…I’m proud of myself).

FM9 Settings (listing changes only):

LAYOUT
- Input1 > Amp1 > Out1 (no tweaks to Input or Output blocks)


AMP BLOCK

Type Page
- Recto2 Red Vintage model

Tone Page
- Drive 7.53
- Bass 2.16
- Mid 1.31
- Treble 7.78
- Master 1.53
- Input trim 3.476
- Presence 5.25
- Level 2.8

Input EQ Page
- Low Cut 204.8

Output EQ Page
- 8 Band Const Q
- 62 @ 2.4
- 125 @ -0.60
- 250 @ -1.13
- 500 @ -3.82
- 1000 @ 1.94
- 2000 @ 0.77
- 4000 @ 0.98
-8000 @ 0.26

Preamp Page
- Input boost on
- Boost Type Super OD
- Boost level 12.00
- Sat switch On (Ideal)
- Sat drive 3.170

Power Amp page
- Power amp modeling off

That’s it for matching the Tremoverb’s Vintage High Gain mode. The amp and the tweaked model sound incredibly similar. I suppose I could maybe get even a touch closer with a little more EQ because I _think_ I hear some suuuuuper small differences, but I’m actually not sure. I tilt my head a little and they sound exactly the same. It’s there imo.

The biggest thing I noticed was the gain—the amp has a lot more than this model. At first I tried just cranking the gain on the amp but the low end got a bit funky. It wasn’t bad, it just didn’t really get me closer to the tone of the amp. Also the model had a lot more low end in general than the amp. So I ended up adding a low cut, turning on the Input Boost (Super OD), turning up the input drive, and turning on the Sat switch and goosing it a hair. Then I adjusted the output EQ a jar for fine tuning. This all kind of surprised me a little, but I’m working with a model that is not designed to be the same as the real amp in this case. Maybe the Recto2 Red Modern might’ve been a better choice. I may check that out for a sec before I check out and try to match the Modern High Gain mode, but I don’t really need to—I definitely feel like I pretty much nailed it well enough already.

Note: I just noticed my output mode is set to FRFR. Interesting! I will have to experiment because that’s not supposed to be the best choice for my setup into a tube power amp and real cab. Still…it sounds awesome so I’ll only be experimenting for the hell of it.

I’ll work on Modern High Gain next.

Important Edit:
I forgot, I have some global EQ. 

Type - Graphic
31 @ -11.10
63 @ -4.25
125 @ -0.40
8k @ -2.63
16k @ -6.15

All else at 0.00


----------



## Deadpool_25

Experiment 2: Modern High Gain

Additional note also applicable to the above post: The Tremoverb’s power section is set to Bold. 

I did a quick dialing in for what I felt was a pretty good modern high gain sound.

Tremoverb settings:
- Modern High Gain mode (on red; no cloning)
- Silicon rectification
- Master 9:00
- Presence 9:00
- Bass 10:00
- Mid 11:45
- Treble 12.15
- Gain 12:00

This time I went straight to Recto2 Red Modern. Again I felt like it was seriously lacking in gain compared to the amp, but overall it seemed much easier to dial this one in.

AMP BLOCK

Type Page
- Recto2 Red Modern

Tone Page
- Drive 6.75
- Bass 6.68
- Mid 4.16
- Treble 6.80
- Master 2.00
- Input Trim 1.723
- Presence 6.83
- Level 3.3 (output 1 knob on top panel is at 12:15 btw)

Input EQ Page
- No changes

Output EQ
- 8 Band Var Q (didn’t change it)
- 62 @ 4.34
- 125 @ 1.69
- 250 @ -0.86
- 500 @ -1.94
- 1000 @ -0.98
- 2000 @ 0.96
- 4000 @ 2.71
- 8000 @ 1.58

Preamp Page
- Input boost on
- Boost type Super Od
- Boost level 12.00
- Sat switch on
- Sat drive 3.910

Power Amp Page
- Power amp modeling off


That’s it. Sounds great and pretty much exactly like the amp.

In either case, I won’t say the model sounds 100% like the amp because I could probably nitpick it if I really tried, but listening at least somewhat critically I’d say there’s no significant difference. If I turned around and played and someone else switched between them I’d be hard pressed to identify which is which with any accuracy and if I was able to select a preference I have no idea which it would be—my guess is it would change back and forth every few minutes.

An interesting point here is that because the real amp is on, the noise from its cab is still audible when I switch to the model which has zero noise. That would make it hard to say which is which. But I like that the model is absolutely silent on its own.


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## Deadpool_25

I’m a little curious about the difference in gain. It’s so apparent that I wonder if I have a global setting I’m not seeing or am forgetting about. I looked through a bit and didn’t see anything. I need to look again as that seems strange.

That’s one thing I like about using real amps and pedals. They’re usually so simple you never really have question if there’s something going on that you’re missing. Conversely I can make changes on the Fractal that, if I was using a real amp, would require outboard gear or outright amp mods. The bottom like is, as most of us know, real amps are easier to use but modelers are waaaay more versatile if you’re willing to put in a little time tweaking them.


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## budda

Might just need more master volume in the FM9? Check Yek’s guide?


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## MatrixClaw

sevenfoxes said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Either the Vintage or Modern mode, not too picky. So far I’ve only had success with getting the recto models on the FM3 to sound like a decent/good emulation.
> 
> I’ll spend some more time tweaking with it, but LMK if you make any discoveries, especially since we’re both using the same power amp.
> 
> Thanks again!


The Rev G model sounded so close to my tremoverb that I sold it. I was A/Bing them one day and the differences were so small that if I was blindfolded, there's no way I could've picked the real amp out over the model. The controls were not 1:1 though. I remember I had to push the master on the FM3 model much higher.


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## Shask

MatrixClaw said:


> The Rev G model sounded so close to my tremoverb that I sold it. I was A/Bing them one day and the differences were so small that if I was blindfolded, there's no way I could've picked the real amp out over the model. The controls were not 1:1 though. I remember I had to push the master on the FM3 model much higher.


Playing the Axe through what?


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## Deadpool_25

budda said:


> Might just need more master volume in the FM9? Check Yek’s guide?


I went and looked back at that again and I don’t _think_ that’s accounting for the huge difference in gain. It might be making a slight difference though.


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## sevenfoxes

Deadpool_25 said:


> I’m a little curious about the difference in gain. It’s so apparent that I wonder if I have a global setting I’m not seeing or am forgetting about. I looked through a bit and didn’t see anything. I need to look again as that seems strange.
> 
> That’s one thing I like about using real amps and pedals. They’re usually so simple you never really have question if there’s something going on that you’re missing. Conversely I can make changes on the Fractal that, if I was using a real amp, would require outboard gear or outright amp mods. The bottom like is, as most of us know, real amps are easier to use but modelers are waaaay more versatile if you’re willing to put in a little time tweaking them.


You rock, man! Thanks a ton for taking the time to do that. Seriously looking forward trying out those settings.


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## sevenfoxes

MatrixClaw said:


> The Rev G model sounded so close to my tremoverb that I sold it. I was A/Bing them one day and the differences were so small that if I was blindfolded, there's no way I could've picked the real amp out over the model. The controls were not 1:1 though. I remember I had to push the master on the FM3 model much higher.


That’s awesome. I think i remember you saying that when you sold it.

But which one is the Rev G model on the FM3?


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## Deadpool_25

sevenfoxes said:


> That’s awesome. I think i remember you saying that when you sold it.
> 
> But which one is the Rev G model on the FM3?


I believe the Recto1 model is based on a Rev F (according to Yek’s guide) so if either was Rev G it would likely be the Recto2, but I think that’s actually based on a newer 3 channel. I feel like Cliff said that in an old post on the fractal forum.


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## Deadpool_25

sevenfoxes said:


> You rock, man! Thanks a ton for taking the time to do that. Seriously looking forward trying out those settings.


My pleasure man. I’m glad I did because I now have a couple recto tones dialed in that are pretty awesome. I’ll save them to the block library and use them in the future. 

And don’t forget to check out my global EQ settings I posted. You’ll need to at least account for those in the amp’s output EQ if your global EQ is flat/different.


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## MatrixClaw

Shask said:


> Playing the Axe through what?


I like it the most through my 44 Magnum power amp and a cab, but I usually play through a PowerCab Plus, because it's most convenient. I've tried it through the power amp of a few of my tube amps and it sounds good that way but kinda defeats the purpose of the FM3 to me, which is to replace a tube head. I'd love to get a dedicated tube power amp for it at some point, but I'm in no rush considering the results I've gotten with solid state power.


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## MatrixClaw

sevenfoxes said:


> That’s awesome. I think i remember you saying that when you sold it.
> 
> But which one is the Rev G model on the FM3?


The Recto 1 is the one I used. Maybe it's a Rev F? I assumed it was a G.


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## sevenfoxes

MatrixClaw said:


> I like it the most through my 44 Magnum power amp and a cab, but I usually play through a PowerCab Plus, because it's most convenient. I've tried it through the power amp of a few of my tube amps and it sounds good that way but kinda defeats the purpose of the FM3 to me, which is to replace a tube head. I'd love to get a dedicated tube power amp for it at some point, but I'm in no rush considering the results I've gotten with solid state power.


Have you tried the SD170? I liked the results enough, but the EVH sounds so much better to me.

Would love to find a ss power amp that I’m happy with.


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## Deadpool_25

sevenfoxes said:


> Have you tried the SD170? I liked the results enough, but the EVH sounds so much better to me.
> 
> Would love to find a ss power amp that I’m happy with.


As for me, I kinda gave up on getting a SS power amp. If I happen to find one, cool. But I really love the look of the head(s) and cab(s) lol. It’s the best of both worlds. I can play modeler through the heads. I can play modeler through the monitors. I can play through the heads using the modeler as effects only. I can ply through the heads with real pedals. It’s great. I have any setup that suits my mood.

And I can basically do all the same stuff with my combo amp(s) if I want to go portable.

Hmmm…tell me why I keep buying shit again… /facepalm


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## Deadpool_25

Also I just sat for a few minutes with the 6505 and FM9. I dialed a crunch tone I liked on the 6505 green channel then pretty well matched it with the PVH 6160+ Crunch model. Next I did the same with the 6505 Red channel and PVH 6160 Block model (that one was super easy).

Fractal into EVH 50w is my happy place 

Edit: and yes, I understand the irony of that against my earlier statement about getting away from comparing. Every now and then you just do it to remind yourself you can lol. Also I was curious about dialing in the 6505 crunch channel since the 5150/6505 green channel isn’t modeled in the Fractal. They have the 5150+ green though (both clean and crunch) and I wanted to see what it took to get it done. It wasn’t too difficult.


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## MatrixClaw

sevenfoxes said:


> Have you tried the SD170? I liked the results enough, but the EVH sounds so much better to me.
> 
> Would love to find a ss power amp that I’m happy with.


I haven't. $400 for a solid state power amp is way more than I'd spend. At that price, I'd spend a bit more and get a Fryette PS2.


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## sevenfoxes

Deadpool_25 said:


> As for me, I kinda gave up on getting a SS power amp. If I happen to find one, cool. But I really love the look of the head(s) and cab(s) lol. It’s the best of both worlds. I can play modeler through the heads. I can play modeler through the monitors. I can play through the heads using the modeler as effects only. I can ply through the heads with real pedals. It’s great. I have any setup that suits my mood.
> 
> And I can basically do all the same stuff with my combo amp(s) if I want to go portable.
> 
> Hmmm…tell me why I keep buying shit again… /facepalm


I think you’re onto something.


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## sevenfoxes

Well, the channel switch just totally died on my Archon 50. Awesome stuff. Looks like I’ll be taking this one back.

Thankfully, I was able to get the FM3 to sound pretty close to the Archon, and thankfully the FM3 has the 6CA7 power tube option, which made a HUGE difference with getting close to the Archon 50 tone.

Not gonna lie, i think FM3 has totally won me over.


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## Deadpool_25

sevenfoxes said:


> Well, the channel switch just totally died on my Archon 50. Awesome stuff. Looks like I’ll be taking this one back.
> 
> Thankfully, I was able to get the FM3 to sound pretty close to the Archon, and thankfully the FM3 has the 6CA7 power tube option, which made a HUGE difference with getting close to the Archon 50 tone.
> 
> Not gonna lie, i think FM3 has totally won me over.


Did you use the Archean model or something else?


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## sevenfoxes

Deadpool_25 said:


> Did you use the Archean model or something else?


Yep, the Archean.

I was actually A/Bing the two for quite some time today, and even though the Archon came out on top, the FM3 was no slouch. I just couldn't get the same response and dynamics from the FM3, but the tone itself was very close.

The Archon just has such a smooth and silky gain structure, which was hard for me to coax out of the FM3.


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## Ribboz

Is latency an issue? Were I to use it through the power amp of my SLO, would I notice any latency? Sorry if this is an old question. Debating getting an FM3. It would be my first modeler.


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## Deadpool_25

Ribboz said:


> Is latency an issue? Were I to use it through the power amp of my SLO, would I notice any latency? Sorry if this is an old question. Debating getting an FM3. It would be my first modeler.


No detectable latency at all that I can feel. I don’t think it’s a thing with the Fractal gear these days. Or the other top tier modelers either afaik.


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## budda

Ribboz said:


> Is latency an issue? Were I to use it through the power amp of my SLO, would I notice any latency? Sorry if this is an old question. Debating getting an FM3. It would be my first modeler.


Latency from a speaker cab is 10ms at 10ft.


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## laxu

Ribboz said:


> Is latency an issue? Were I to use it through the power amp of my SLO, would I notice any latency? Sorry if this is an old question. Debating getting an FM3. It would be my first modeler.


The roundtrip latency of FM3 is very low. It's a total non-issue.


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## soul_lip_mike

Deadpool_25 said:


> Also I just sat for a few minutes with the 6505 and FM9. I dialed a crunch tone I liked on the 6505 green channel then pretty well matched it with the PVH 6160+ Crunch model. Next I did the same with the 6505 Red channel and PVH 6160 Block model (that one was super easy).
> 
> Fractal into EVH 50w is my happy place
> 
> Edit: and yes, I understand the irony of that against my earlier statement about getting away from comparing. Every now and then you just do it to remind yourself you can lol. Also I was curious about dialing in the 6505 crunch channel since the 5150/6505 green channel isn’t modeled in the Fractal. They have the 5150+ green though (both clean and crunch) and I wanted to see what it took to get it done. It wasn’t too difficult.


Unrelated anecdote. Austin Buddy gold pack has a great EVH rig preset that has an awesome green channel with detune.


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## ShredmasterD

Had my FM3 for a week but I do need to read the manual. lots going on here. right away , to me, it sounds better than the kemper. much warmer to my ears. i should have gone fractal a long time ago. any tips for a fractal noob? will start using for recording. no live playing for now.


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## Deadpool_25

ShredmasterD said:


> Had my FM3 for a week but I do need to read the manual. lots going on here. right away , to me, it sounds better than the kemper. much warmer to my ears. i should have gone fractal a long time ago. any tips for a fractal noob? will start using for recording. no live playing for now.


Maybe check out Rosh Roslin’s YouTube channel. You can look at stuff for any of the Fractal stuff and get some good info. Also AxeFX tutorials and Leon Todd. 

If you want to spend some money I hear Cooper Carter’s classes are good but I’d start with the free stuff and also sign up on the Fractal forum.


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## Breeding The Spawn

I'm still having a hard time setting up a good Death Metal tone on the FM3 with my Vader Cab. I'm using a Ritter gba280 watt power amp and using a Caparison Horus with a Black Winter pickup. I am creating a preset at loud stage volume but no matter what I do I can't get rid of this sharp, harsh high end. I am currently using the Angle Severe 2. I keep separate presets for recordings and I am very happy with those, but once I create a preset for my cab I can't get anything to sound good.


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## Shask

Breeding The Spawn said:


> I'm still having a hard time setting up a good Death Metal tone on the FM3 with my Vader Cab. I'm using a Ritter gba280 watt power amp and using a Caparison Horus with a Black Winter pickup. I am creating a preset at loud stage volume but no matter what I do I can't get rid of this sharp, harsh high end. I am currently using the Angle Severe 2. I keep separate presets for recordings and I am very happy with those, but once I create a preset for my cab I can't get anything to sound good.


Put a Filter block after the amp block with a hi cut at around 7khz.


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## budda

Shask said:


> Put a Filter block after the amp block with a hi cut at around 7khz.


Or use the output eq in the amp block to do the same thing.


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## Shask

budda said:


> Or use the output eq in the amp block to do the same thing.


That can help also, but not as fine-tunable as using a Filter or Parametric EQ.


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## Deadpool_25

You can also think outside the box. Although you're using a real cab, you can still try using an IR. Granted this can make things sound a bit muffled, however you can add some life back in with some basic EQ tweaks using the amp model's tone controls, or any of the other many tone controls available.

For giggles one time I ran an IR through my real cabs. It did lose a lot of high end. I boosted the highs on my Powerstage (maybe mids too, I forget) and thought it was a pretty usable, even good, tone. Kinda surprised me tbh. 

It's not the most obvious solution, and may not be the "best" solution, but maybe give it a shot and see if what you think.


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## laxu

Breeding The Spawn said:


> I'm still having a hard time setting up a good Death Metal tone on the FM3 with my Vader Cab. I'm using a Ritter gba280 watt power amp and using a Caparison Horus with a Black Winter pickup. I am creating a preset at loud stage volume but no matter what I do I can't get rid of this sharp, harsh high end. I am currently using the Angle Severe 2. I keep separate presets for recordings and I am very happy with those, but once I create a preset for my cab I can't get anything to sound good.


It's pretty impossible to give suggestions without a clip.

It should sound good with not much more than having cab sims disabled (or just no cab block in the preset) and using an amp model you like. Not every amp model is going to play nicely for your preference so just roll through them until you find something you like. Try adding a parametric EQ before the Out block to try to find where the offending frequencies are happening.


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## Breeding The Spawn

laxu said:


> It's pretty impossible to give suggestions without a clip.
> 
> It should sound good with not much more than having cab sims disabled (or just no cab block in the preset) and using an amp model you like. Not every amp model is going to play nicely for your preference so just roll through them until you find something you like. Try adding a parametric EQ before the Out block to try to find where the offending frequencies are happening.


I understand, I'll see if I can do a video soon describing it better. I find it so weird why I am having such a hard time, I don't know if it's the speakers in my cab, the fm3, the black winter pickup which I still kinda hate.


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## MASS DEFECT

Breeding The Spawn said:


> I'm still having a hard time setting up a good Death Metal tone on the FM3 with my Vader Cab. I'm using a Ritter gba280 watt power amp and using a Caparison Horus with a Black Winter pickup. I am creating a preset at loud stage volume but no matter what I do I can't get rid of this sharp, harsh high end. I am currently using the Angle Severe 2. I keep separate presets for recordings and I am very happy with those, but once I create a preset for my cab I can't get anything to sound good.



What speakers are in your Vader Cab? Legend V12s?


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## LCW

Breeding The Spawn said:


> I'm still having a hard time setting up a good Death Metal tone on the FM3 with my Vader Cab. I'm using a Ritter gba280 watt power amp and using a Caparison Horus with a Black Winter pickup. I am creating a preset at loud stage volume but no matter what I do I can't get rid of this sharp, harsh high end. I am currently using the Angle Severe 2. I keep separate presets for recordings and I am very happy with those, but once I create a preset for my cab I can't get anything to sound good.


Have you tried tweaking the high cut in the 'Input EQ' section of the amp block? I found that to help get rid of some high frequency fizz... at least I think so...


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## LCW

And along the lines of what Deadpool is saying, since you're running power amp and cab, you could/should have power amp modeling on (unless your power amp is very 'colored' vs neutral). The amp block has a 'Speaker' section where you can select different cab responses (impedance curves really). And you can do some high cut there as well.

And also make sure in the Output Mode, you don't have FRFR enabled. I found having FRFR enabled makes a real cab sound weird. But alternatively, running IRs into studio monitors, having 'SS pwr and cab' enabled doesn't seem to make much difference in the sound coming out of the monitors. I have dual outputs, one to amp/cab and one (cab block/IR enabled) to my studio monitors.


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## budda

Breeding The Spawn said:


> I understand, I'll see if I can do a video soon describing it better. I find it so weird why I am having such a hard time, I don't know if it's the speakers in my cab, the fm3, the black winter pickup which I still kinda hate.


Read the last part of the last sentence. I think we found the problem.


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## Deadpool_25

budda said:


> Read the last part of the last sentence. I think we found the problem.


Yeah but that can't be it. Pickups don't have any effect on frequency response. Glenn Fricker said so.


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## Deadpool_25

Deadpool_25 said:


> As for me, I kinda gave up on getting a SS power amp. If I happen to find one, cool. But I really love the look of the head(s) and cab(s) lol. It’s the best of both worlds. I can play modeler through the heads. I can play modeler through the monitors. I can play through the heads using the modeler as effects only. I can ply through the heads with real pedals. It’s great. I have any setup that suits my mood.
> 
> And I can basically do all the same stuff with my combo amp(s) if I want to go portable.
> 
> Hmmm…tell me why I keep buying shit again… /facepalm


Ha. Looking back at this post I guess I hadn't given up. I ended up with a Powerstage 700 and absolutely love it. Seriously considering going down to just a single EVH head. With the 700 that gives me three channels of power for when I want to get crazy with w/d/w.


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## laxu

LCW said:


> And also make sure in the Output Mode, you don't have FRFR enabled. I found having FRFR enabled makes a real cab sound weird. But alternatively, running IRs into studio monitors, having 'SS pwr and cab' enabled doesn't seem to make much difference in the sound coming out of the monitors. I have dual outputs, one to amp/cab and one (cab block/IR enabled) to my studio monitors.
> 
> View attachment 119117


_"The default value, “FRFR”, is designed for use while using “Full Range/Flat Response” monitors, or while recording. The “Solid State Power Amp + Cab” (“SS PWR AMP + CAB”) mode is intended for use while using a solid-state power amp and conventional guitar cab. In this mode speaker compression modeling behaves differently, relying on the speaker for compression while still simulating the interaction with the power amp.

NOTE: The SS PA + Cab Mode is NOT intended for use with “current drive” power amps, i.e. tube power amps, Class-D current feedback amps, etc. This mode CAN be used, however, with FRFR monitors in high volume applications where the monitor’s speakers are compressing, thereby achieving a more dynamic response."_

So whether you should be using this setting heavily depends on the type of poweramp you have. Mine have been either tube or Class D solid-state so I've never found it to be an improvement.


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## Deadpool_25

laxu said:


> _"The default value, “FRFR”, is designed for use while using “Full Range/Flat Response” monitors, or while recording. The “Solid State Power Amp + Cab” (“SS PWR AMP + CAB”) mode is intended for use while using a solid-state power amp and conventional guitar cab. In this mode speaker compression modeling behaves differently, relying on the speaker for compression while still simulating the interaction with the power amp.
> 
> NOTE: The SS PA + Cab Mode is NOT intended for use with “current drive” power amps, i.e. tube power amps, Class-D current feedback amps, etc. This mode CAN be used, however, with FRFR monitors in high volume applications where the monitor’s speakers are compressing, thereby achieving a more dynamic response."_
> 
> So whether you should be using this setting heavily depends on the type of poweramp you have. Mine have been either tube or Class D solid-state so I've never found it to be an improvement.


All true. However I'd say you can also try pretty much anything. You never know what you'll prefer. Like using cab modeling through a real cab. Intuitively that should not work well and most of my experiences confirm that it usually doesn't for me. Some people actually like it that way though and that's fine. And then I tried it in a situation where I was actually _trying_ to make it work and I found that I kinda could.

A lot of times doing things in a way other than how they're intended can end up working well, or can be made to work well (or at least well enough). At least IME.


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