# First live show and potential problems



## broj15 (Jan 20, 2016)

tl;dr at the bottom for those who don'tr care...

So my band scored our first show at an actual venue. The venue is relatively small (~100 capacity) but I know they have a professional in house sound guy. We're a 3 piece (guitar, drums, and bass with me and our bassist sharing vocal duties). I know our bass player is planning on DI'ing, however I'll be playing through my full rig (60W Peavey 6505 2x12 ran stereo with my 60W Fender HRD 4x10). 

Now, as pretentious as this might sound, having really noisy yet controllable feedback and just being loud in general is a big part of our sound. There are certain occasions where I need near instantaneous feedback and I achieve this by running both my amps cranked to ear shattering volumes. 

This brings us to my problem: I know that at real venues (as opposed to basement/living room shows) it's customary to mic the guitar cabs and run them through the house monitors. Now I know that my rig as it is will have no problem filling the room with sound and I know my drummer and bassist will definitely be able to hear me, however I know the sound guy will want to mic my amps because it's why he's there and it's also what he's accustomed to. I also know he'll ask me to turn down as to not overload the PA. How can I politely, yet effectively tell him that we're a louder band than he's probably used to and there's no need to mic my rig? For reference this venue typically caters to conventional indie/alternative or "hot topic-core" bands where it's less likely/desirable for the guitars to be so cranked.

Perhaps I'm over thinking it or just worrying for no reason, but a friend of mine who plays in a band with a similar sound/vibe told me a horror story where they ran into the same situation. They tried to explain to the sound guy that they were a "loud fvcking band" but he refused to listen and kept asking them to turn down during sound check. They turned everything back up to their normal levels right before their set started without warning the sound guy. After they finished they were asked by the venue owner, promoter, and sound guy to immediately pack their sh_i_t and leave and that they were never to play a show at that venue or for that promoter ever again.

tl;dr: How do I tell the sound guy I don't need my rig mic'd without offending him or anyone else? any and all advice is appreciated and will result in imaginary green rep.


----------



## Bodes (Jan 20, 2016)

You do not need to crank your amp to gain heaps of feedback. There are a ton of pedals you can use to push your amp into feedback at "acceptable" volumes. 
I actually recorded yesterday with a group of guys and the lead guitarist got amazing feedback with just a tubescreamer, and got "holy sh1te my ears" feedback with the tubescreamer AND a vintage distortion both on at the same time. This was running into a 2x12 vox AC50 and an old Ampeg guitar amp.
He was able to achieve this but lightly tapping the body of the guitar while placing his guitar really close to the speakers.

Post details of your whole rig, including pedals, and maybe someone here could assist you with getting to your desired effect without turning up to insane volumes.

Another thing is massive volumes on stage is really bad for your live sound and most people will not like it or your band if you push your rig with feedback, trust me, I've seen it happen before.


----------



## Baelzebeard (Jan 20, 2016)

You may not be able to turn up as loud as you want in every venue.

The sound guy has to do his best to make things sound balanced. The problem arises if your guitar is so freaking loud that it drowns out everything else to such a degree that, say the vocal mics can't be functional because the guitar sound at the mic capsule is substantially louder then the actual vocals are. There really is a ceiling on how loud you can functionally be in an acoustic space as part of a band.

Feedback is definitely attainable at low volume, just pile on the gain.


----------



## cult (Jan 21, 2016)

Kneel down in front of your monitor.
Tap the back of your headstock.
Hold pickups close to speakers.

Thank me later, this is almost a surefire way to get your guitar into feedback.

Also, you could build a feddback looper and just put an OD, a Distortion or Fuzz Pedal in it.


----------



## broj15 (Jan 21, 2016)

Bodes said:


> Post details of your whole rig, including pedals, and maybe someone here could assist you with getting to your desired effect without turning up to insane volumes.



Ibanez RG570 -> Morley A/B switcher -> Fender HRD with a Mr. Black Super moon in the loop. On the other end I run the Morely A/B -> Fulltone OCD (volume dimed, tone just below max, and drive around 2-3/10) -> 6505 Red channel (pre gain around 3) -> and a Boss GE-7 (EQ) in the loop. 

The HRD is always on the clean channel. i use it by itself for just a couple parts where I need a totally clean tone and then blend it with the 6505 for my main tone since the clean high end adds a lot of clarity and note definition to the 6505 which can get pretty hairy. It's vital in that regard when I play big arpeggiated chords and just move the higher notes around to sort of create the melody. 

I use the OCD as a boost to get the desired amount of feedback and it helps give me a really nice sharp/metallic attack for riffing, but I do click it off some occasions where I don't need that much gain.



Bodes said:


> Another thing is massive volumes on stage is really bad for your live sound and most people will not like it or your band if you push your rig with feedback, trust me, I've seen it happen before.



Here's where I have to strongly disagree with you. I understand that in some situations louder isn't better and can be worse, however with the type of music we play. I have seen bands in the same wheelhouse as us use twice the amount of gear (2 guitarists with cranked 120w heads ran stereo through ampeg 8x10's/2x15's) in small concrete basements. That's just par for the course with our kind of music. If people can't handle the volume then we're not the band for them and we're totally cool with that. 





cult said:


> Kneel down in front of your monitor.
> Tap the back of your headstock.
> Hold pickups close to speakers.



I already know these tricks and use them often. The thing is, I use feedback so often and sometimes need to be doing vocals while summoning the feedback, therefore I don't have the time or the opportunity to run up to my amp or tap the head stock every time I need it. I also don't always need the feedback to swell and build up. I need it at it's max in an instant usually as soon as I cut off a syncopated chord. 




Baelzebeard said:


> The sound guy has to do his best to make things sound balanced. The problem arises if your guitar is so freaking loud that it drowns out everything else to such a degree that, say the vocal mics can't be functional because the guitar sound at the mic capsule is substantially louder then the actual vocals are. There really is a ceiling on how loud you can functionally be in an acoustic space as part of a band.
> 
> Feedback is definitely attainable at low volume, just pile on the gain.:hbang



See, I'm almost positive this won't be a problem. We recently recorded our demo live in our practice space (15' x 20', painted plywood walls and low ceilings, and concrete floor) and had very little issue with bleed over. Honestly the only problem we had as far as that was concerned was with our drummers cymbals bleeding over into my mics for my amps. I'd also rather not pile on any more gain as it makes the high end of my tone even more hairy than it already is.


Just for reference, here are some examples of what we kind of do, as far as our use of feedback is concerned:

The intro of this song:



and skip to 1:40 on this vid




EDIT: Also not trying to cop anymore new gear just for this show. I'm finally happy with my rig how it is and I think I'm set for a while.


----------



## cult (Jan 22, 2016)

You could build one of these for under 20$ in parts, easy on top.
Step on it, instant feedback with some kind of distortion in the loop, use a momentary switch for maximum convenience so it will shut off once you release it.


----------



## crystAlex (Jan 22, 2016)

I think you pretty much have the bottom line in the title: you're getting your first gig, and already you/your sound are becoming a bottleneck. 
Do you want to be in a position where you're going to have to ask for particular/special circumstances from the beginning? 

Either you find a way to solve it yourself/be adaptive, either you cling on to your belief that 'everything has to be ultra loud', be very rigid about it, and hope for the best that people will be very leniant on an unknown band's demands (as they try to figure out which band, amongst all the bands battling for some room on a stage, to plan...).


----------



## broj15 (Jan 22, 2016)

crystAlex said:


> I think you pretty much have the bottom line in the title: you're getting your first gig, and already you/your sound are becoming a bottleneck.
> Do you want to be in a position where you're going to have to ask for particular/special circumstances from the beginning?
> 
> Either you find a way to solve it yourself/be adaptive, either you cling on to your belief that 'everything has to be ultra loud', be very rigid about it, and hope for the best that people will be very leniant on an unknown band's demands (as they try to figure out which band, amongst all the bands battling for some room on a stage, to plan...).



See, I'm really not too worried about not playing another gig at this venue or for this promoter. It's not the type of venue we want to play regularly (we know we'd fit in better with smaller bands with a similar sound and would work better at smaller venues and house shows) or the kind of promoter we want to book many more shows with (typically books national acts and requires local bands to take presales if they want to play... something i'm morally opposed to). We just want this show to go as smoothly as possible in hopes that there are other local musicians or promoters who "get it" somewhere in the crowd. We're a DIY band at heart, but we also realize that everyone has to start somewhere.

Honestly it looks like I'll just have to stick to my guns on this one when the time for sound check comes and hope for the best. Thanks to everyone for all the help and advice though.


----------



## mr coffee (Jan 22, 2016)

I've never had problems getting feedback out of my 6505+ at reasonable stage volumes, even with gating and compression. Depending on the room, I've even found it problematic in certain cases, to the extent that I have had to ride my volume knob and choke notes off excessively. If your guitar is miced and in your monitor (you are running wedges, not in-ears, right?), you should have no trouble getting all the feedback you want. You should discuss this with the sound guy, he may actually be able to offer some advice or help by running your guitar hot in the monitor with a bump in the EQ at a frequency that helps get you ringing. Placement of your cab can make a difference as well.

If you don't mind [email protected]#$ing off promoters, sound guys, venue owners/management/staff, bands with whom you are sharing the bill and stage, you might want to think about this: all of those people are part of a scene, and they talk to other promoters, sound guys, venues, bands. Do what you want, and burn your bridges if you feel you must.

-m


----------



## TheKindred (Jan 22, 2016)

mr coffee said:


> If you don't mind [email protected]#$ing off promoters, sound guys, venue owners/management/staff, bands with whom you are sharing the bill and stage, you might want to think about this: all of those people are part of a scene, and they talk to other promoters, sound guys, venues, bands. Do what you want, and burn your bridges if you feel you must.
> 
> -m



That.

Even if it's not a venue you want to play again, or a promoter you want to work with again, they will talk to each other. Your band WILL get a reputation, and the promoters/venues you do want will start passing you over.

Be professional, be adaptable and be versatile. Remember the gig isn't there to pander to your needs. It's the other way around.


----------



## TedEH (Jan 22, 2016)

broj15 said:


> There are certain occasions where I need near instantaneous feedback and I achieve this by running both my amps cranked to ear shattering volumes.



On behalf of everyone you are giving tinnitus to, please don't do that.



> We just want this show to go as smoothly as possible



The best way for a show to go smoothly is to realize that sometimes you're wrong, or that it doesn't matter, and start cooperating with the people who run the environment that defines the constraints you are supposed to work within. It's a pick-your-battles kind of situation. What about concert-goers without hearing protection? What if the venue is required by law to stay under a certain noise level and you're putting them at risk of a fine? What happens if you annoy everyone and never get booked for a gig again? What if you upstage the headliner and lose them as a professional contact? What if your crowd leaves when they realize they can't take the volume, and the other bands blame you for leaving them with nobody to play for except their girlfriends and the other bands?



> in hopes that there are other local musicians or promoters who "get it" somewhere in the crowd.



What they're going to "get" is tinnitus, and annoyed at you for being difficult to work with. In an ideal world, you could just do whatever you want without consequences, but that's not whats going on here. People are likely asking you to turn down for good reasons, not just because they don't like you or something.



> So my band scored our first show at an actual venue.


If it's your first show in a "real venue" then don't act like you know better than the employees of the venue, the promoter, other bands, etc. that have been doing this longer than you have. Trust everyone else here telling you the same thing: letting the sound guy do his job is in your best interests.


----------



## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 22, 2016)

TedEH said:


> What about concert-goers without hearing protection?



Thats COMPLETELY on the concert-goers. What idiot goes to a show and expects to not have blown out ears without plugs?

And OP, why not explain to the sound guy your issue, and see where he wants to go with it. Give it a whirl his way and if it still doesn't work, THEN turn into a diva as a last ditch effort.


----------



## broj15 (Jan 22, 2016)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> Thats COMPLETELY on the concert-goers. What idiot goes to a show and expects to not have blown out ears without plugs?
> 
> And OP, why not explain to the sound guy your issue, and see where he wants to go with it. Give it a whirl his way and if it still doesn't work, THEN turn into a diva as a last ditch effort.



That's what my current plan is. I've got an idea in my head that I'm gonna put to the test at practice tomorrow so if anyone wants to weigh in on that here it is:

To my understanding feedback is created when the sound waves from the amp vibrate the strings and cause the harmonic overtones to ring out. Right now I have my 6505 sitting on the ground. I know that when monitors are flat on the ground (not tilted with the speakers aiming up) you lose volume. I'm assuming the same is true of guitar amps. If I rig something up to tilt the amp back a few degrees so the sound waves are aimed more directly at me shouldn't I be able to get away with turning down while still letting the sound waves from the amp vibrate the strings. Like I said, It's just a theory that I plan on putting to the test this weekend. I'm thinking something kind of like those wooden wedges people use as door stops would be the way to go (though scaled up obviously to support the weight of the amp). 



TedEH said:


> On behalf of everyone you are giving tinnitus to, please don't do that.
> The best way for a show to go smoothly is to realize that sometimes you're wrong, or that it doesn't matter, and start cooperating with the people who run the environment that defines the constraints you are supposed to work within. It's a pick-your-battles kind of situation. What about concert-goers without hearing protection? What if the venue is required by law to stay under a certain noise level and you're putting them at risk of a fine? What happens if you annoy everyone and never get booked for a gig again? What if you upstage the headliner and lose them as a professional contact? What if your crowd leaves when they realize they can't take the volume, and the other bands blame you for leaving them with nobody to play for except their girlfriends and the other bands?
> What they're going to "get" is tinnitus, and annoyed at you for being difficult to work with. In an ideal world, you could just do whatever you want without consequences, but that's not whats going on here. People are likely asking you to turn down for good reasons, not just because they don't like you or something.
> If it's your first show in a "real venue" then don't act like you know better than the employees of the venue, the promoter, other bands, etc. that have been doing this longer than you have. Trust everyone else here telling you the same thing: letting the sound guy do his job is in your best interests.



no offense, but your tone is coming across as a bit combative, and all the complaints of tinnitus have me thinking "if it's to loud then you're too old". I mean we're loud but we're not Swans loud or anything.


----------



## mr coffee (Jan 22, 2016)

Like I said: positioning.

On-Stage Stands RS4000 Folding Amp Stand - Small - 100lbs Max | Sweetwater.com

-m


----------



## broj15 (Jan 23, 2016)

^^^ That's exactly what I had in mind, albeit a cheaper, homemade solution. I know my drummer has some spare wood lying around so i should be able to get something rigged up this weekend.


----------



## Mprinsje (Jan 23, 2016)

TedEH said:


> What if you upstage the headliner and lose them as a professional contact?



Let's be honest: if you upstage the headliner, they should put on a better show.


----------



## scottro202 (Jan 23, 2016)

Whatever you do, I think you should be creating feedback from your amps at a level the soundguy can comfortably mic it at. 

The reason I say isn't for anything other than if you do volume-induced feedback on a stage you're not used to playing (ESPECIALLY if this is your first legit show), you won't be able to _control_ your feedback. You say you sing and play. How are you gonna make sure you feedback when you're not supposed to? What if you have to put your amp in a different spot than your used to? Or if you break a string and have to use a different/backup guitar?

When it comes to live performances, the rule of "What can go wrong, will go wrong," more often than not applies.


----------



## Random3 (Jan 24, 2016)

What I would suggest is buy a cheap overdrive pedal (or two) and kick them in to induce feedback. If all you want is feedback as opposed to any difference in tone then you shouldn't need to pay very much at all to get a cheap pedal.


----------



## mongey (Jan 24, 2016)

end of the day sound guys job is to run the sound. they all have different ways of doing stuff. there's nothing wrong with saying to the sound guy "can we try this " but if he says he doesn't want to do it then just cop it and get on with the gig . the sure way to make a gig horrible and not fun is to decide the sound guy is a tool and give him attitude

plenty of bands who use plenty of feedback have been micing up their amps for 50 years. sure you'll be fine 


if this is your first real gig you got allot to learn about what happens at gigs, we have all been there starting out . just focus on the playing and have fun and let the sound guy do his job


----------



## TedEH (Jan 25, 2016)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> Thats COMPLETELY on the concert-goers. What idiot goes to a show and expects to not have blown out ears without plugs?



You're not wrong, but I've never been to a show where everyone has plugs. It's not a thing that happens. People justify it to themselves in whatever way they have to in order not to wear plugs (musicians included). It's certainly their own fault, but that's no reason not to be considerate of your audience- knowing that at least some number of them will have either not considered it, or did consider it and decided "it'll be fine this time".

Vaguely related: I've been to shows that were so insanely loud that earplugs did nothing. The whole show was just piercing white noise the whole time, with or without the plugs, and the people who did stick around all agreed that the volume/mix was insane. The result is not being able to enjoy the show at all 'cause you can't hear it. I certainly would not have blamed that on the audience for not bringing enough hearing protection.



> no offense, but your tone is coming across as a bit combative, and all the complaints of tinnitus have me thinking "if it's to loud then you're too old". I mean we're loud but we're not Swans loud or anything.



You said yourself you were playing at "ear shattering volumes", then planning to actively defy those who ask you turn it down a bit, described the venue as a place you don't really want to play anyway cause they don't "get it", and criticized the venue and sound guy for doing their jobs, on top of responding to criticism by calling people "too old".

As someone who used to book shows, you've set yourself up as being unpleasant to work with, which is going to work against you if you intend to play more shows. Everyone involved in a show is doing the best they can to make things go smoothly. The comments here, mine included, are intended to help you out. It's your choice to look at that as "combative" instead of "critical". "Too old to get it" a lot of times means "wise enough to know better".


----------



## robare99 (Jan 25, 2016)

Work with the sound guy. He will know the room. You might be able to run louder than you expect. A lot of times if you turn your guitar down and get some in your monitor you can get that feedback. As others have said, if you're too loud you won't be asked back. Word does get out on which bands are easy to work with and which bands to avoid.


----------



## Ibycan7 (Jan 25, 2016)

OP, to me is more about where I'm positioned with relation to my amp than volume itself. I don't think you will have any issues, but I would advise against not miking. being the only guitar, you will need the PA to make your sound full. by running just your amp, you will not spread evenly across the venue, if everyone else is being miked (or running a DI to the PA like the bass), then you need to be miked as well.


----------



## robare99 (Feb 8, 2016)

So, how did it go?


----------



## domsch1988 (Feb 9, 2016)

Although i might be late, i thought i'd share my experience.
My first two gigs were a proper pain in that regard. I never played life before, so i showed up, set my 60W Amp as for rehearsal and spend 5 minutes on soundcheck turning my master down till the i house technician was fine with it. After that, the monitors were levelled. In the end i played two gigs not hearing anything from myself.
The next gigs went better. I accepted that the technician wants to decide how we sound FOH. I'm fine with that. Sometimes thats not as good as we'd like, but mostly it's fine and more often than not it's better than not being miced at all.

Key for me was to tell the technician what you want. You don't need to crank your amp for high stage volume. I just tell the tech to turn me louder on the monitor. Mostly it's 30% over what he want's to do, but after some slight arguing it's fine. I let them do with the sound what they want and make them give me the volume i want. Never had a Problem after that again.
Sure, the Sound may not be 100% what you are used to (esp. when you are standing in front of your speakers, where most top end gets lost) but you therefor now what the audience is hearing (which for me is much more important nowadays).

tl;dr: Accept that no show is 100%, try to work with the tech and accept that they have a job to do. Maybe they now how to get you to sound good. In the end, most of these guys learned what they do or have much more experience with the venue than you do...


----------



## ghostred7 (Feb 9, 2016)

TedEH said:


> "Too old to get it" a lot of times means "wise enough to know better".



^This...so much this. Gods forbid we share actual experiences lol.
-------------------------------

Never play at volumes the sound guy cannot properly balance in FOH and most/most importantly.... never piss off the sound guy to begin with. If he/she is irritated enough, he/she can (and probably will) make whatever is running through FOH sound as horrible as possible. The band gets the blame for said sound. People talk. Rep given. NOTHING in the YT samples you provided shows any type of music/sounds/feedback/etc that cannot be achieved at lower volumes.

Also - if the sound guy is wanting to mic you, even in a small venue...there is knowledge and experience for the venue that proceeds you that you're ignoring. Never ignore knowledge and experience...especially when you're noob.

IAW - do what your sound person tells you and you'll sound great...don't and whatever ass-sounding you are will be completely on you and the venue/promoters/sound guy/etc will make sure all of their industry buddies, etc know about it and who you are.


----------



## broj15 (Feb 22, 2016)

well the show was last night so I thought I'd update everyone on how it went. Before sound check I explained the situation to the sound guy and he was actually really cool about it. He basically said that I'd just have to angle my amp slightly away from him (his position being at the back of the room) and that given how loud I was I would probably be good and he'd just turn me up in the mix just slightly above zero, so everything in that regard was good. In fact, he had more trouble setting up the band that played after us and I overheard him say "fvck it, I guess I'll just have to max everything" and then he stormed off the stage and back to the soundboard

After our set while we wear tearing down and he was getting the other band set up he pat me on the back and said "great job. I really dig with you guys are doing". 

The crowd up front was a bit thin at the very beginning of our set (we start of with a slow shoegaz-y build up and then drop out to really quiet finger picked arpeggios and then the feedback and dissonance hit and we start to get rowdy), but once we really got into the heavy sh_i_t I noticed a lot of people make there way to the front.

I have really bad confidence issues-especially when it comes to playing in front of strangers, but according to some of my friends that came (other musicians who I trust to offer honest unbiased opinions) said they saw a lot of people head banging and getting into. When our set was over I heard the majority of the crowd (about 50 people total) give a big round of applause and a few cheers. My friends that came also confirmed that it wasn't just them cheering but several other people in the crowd as well. After our set I had maybe 7 or 8 people come up to me and give compliments, ranging from things like "extremely unorthodox", how we obviously play from the heart, and one guy told me that I had amazing stage presence (funny considering it's nothing I ever put thought into other that "losing my sh_i_t" when I play) and that my vocals were "very black metal" and to overall just keep doing what we're doing, because no one else is. 

The real highlight of the night came when the band that played before us (they were a last minute add on and didn't fit in on the bill either, and were actually really amazing) exchanged numbers with us and said they want to set up a house show for us (something we're all more used to and more comfortable with) in the very near future.

tl;dr: I was worried for no real reason, sound guy was a total bro about everything, and everything went as well as it could've.

Edit: and our drummer broke 6 of the 8 drumsticks he brought with him. I looked over at him at one point and all I saw were wood chips flying... I fvcking love that guy lol.


----------



## GunpointMetal (Feb 24, 2016)

As a guitarist who likes things loud on occasion and someone who does sound on small shows occasionally....the sound guy knows the room, knows what sounds good and doesn't in there, and you should probably listen to him if he asks you to turn down. 

Guitarist who think they need pants-....ting volume to get decent feedback are a pain in the ass for a sound guy, and 9/10 you'll actually sound BETTER and overall louder with less volume on stage and proper FOH mix, then having the the sound guy try and get your vocals/bass/drums to sit in with your excessively loud guitar.


----------



## scottro202 (Mar 5, 2016)

Glad to hear the show went well! Good idea to talk to the sound guy beforehand and explain everything, most sound engineers will be willing to accommodate bands' special sound requests so long as the venue actually has the equipment to pull it off and so long as you're not asking too much of the engineer for that particular show (IE don't ask for your vocals to be super EQ'd, compress'd and reverb'd for a 30 person basement show  )

That band that played after you probably didn't talk to the guy at all, therefore the guy was running the board cold and probably got frustrated when the band was doing things the sound guy wasn't made aware of.


----------

