# "A Gig is a Gig"



## scottro202 (Mar 13, 2011)

So, I went to a show at a local-Atlanta venue that won't be named, seeing if my band should book there. In a nuthsell, the answer was NO. But, all the bands I talked to were cool, and bands of my band's style play there. So, the morning after, I'm starting to rethink it. Maybe we should book there, despite the fact I experienced (just as a concertgoer) why all the bands I've talked to who've played there said it's shit. This one venue almost seems like a right of passage for local ATL bands to play, like an initiation of sorts.

Anyways, my ultimate question is, to you guys, is a gig a gig? In other words, do you guys have "standards" as to where you will book? Or if the place just has a PA and a room will you go for it? I'm mostly asking the local bands here, but I suppose it applies to the big touring acts on here as well.

TL,DR: Do you have "standards" for booking gigs, ESPECIALLY when first starting out.


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## Explorer (Mar 13, 2011)

I have one *huge* standard for a gig being a gig: actually getting paid.

That's it. If the pay is right, I'll do a wedding or a bar mitzvah. 

Shitty pay and great exposure? Most bands die of exposure. 

If you're a serious professional band (and by "professional," I mean doing it for a living), then you don't play gigs as a hobby. Sure, the venue needs to make money on top of expenses... but so do the bands. If a venue can't afford to hire a real band and *still* make money, don't be the charitable donor who enables them to make money at your expense.

Oh, one more thing! Written contract!

Good luck!


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## steve1 (Mar 13, 2011)

try to avoid gigs where you only get paid if you bring a certain amount of people or sell a certain amount of tickets etc, this is an instant sign that the promoter is a lazy ass.


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## Ckackley (Mar 13, 2011)

We've always pretty much played anywhere. If there's no PA we bring our own. Pay to play , set amount. Doesn't matter. If you're not out there people don't know who you are. Play anywhere there's an electric plug. Or carry a generator. Done that once or twice too. lol


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## Ckackley (Mar 13, 2011)

steve1 said:


> try to avoid gigs where you only get paid if you bring a certain amount of people or sell a certain amount of tickets etc, this is an instant sign that the promoter is a lazy ass.



Almost every club/venure in the US is set up this way unfrotunately.


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## Soubi7string (Mar 13, 2011)

pay to play NEVER, set amount is ok, first show and you're local = no pay is understandable to a degree


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## lookralphsbak (Mar 14, 2011)

The only way we won't play a show is if it's with a promoter that has dicked us or if the show is with a band(s) we don't necessarily like or bands that don't fit our style/bands with fans that don't fit our style. Being an extreme band from NY there are a lot of NYHC influenced bands around here. Bands that have 2-3 breakdowns in every song they write. The fans of this style of music are the pit ninjas that only listen to music with breakdowns so they can dance to them. I don't want to be associated with these bands/fans nor do I want my band associated with them. Pay isn't a big deal to us at this point because we are still in the process of building a fan base. Every show we get offered I look at it as "well band A is this genre and band B is this genre, in theory our music is similar enough that their fans will most likely get into our music so we should play this show because we will leave the venue with at least 1 fan". My band as of now is at the point where our "fan base" is mostly made up of family and friends with a handful of people that are legit fans of the music we write and will come see us because we're playing a show. Before we can choose not to play shows for the reasons listed in the original post we need a solid fan base within our hometown.


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## sleepy502 (Mar 14, 2011)

We have a couple venues we won't play at just because of acoustics. For example, there is a church venue which is just awful. 

Other than that, I'll play anytime, anywhere for any amount of money, even if it's free or at least for a good cause. I love playing shows.


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## lookralphsbak (Mar 14, 2011)

sleepy502 said:


> We have a couple venues we won't play at just because of acoustics. For example, there is a church venue which is just awful.
> 
> Other than that, I'll play anytime, anywhere for any amount of money, even if it's free or at least for a good cause. I love playing shows.


Oh yea that too... I love playing shows hahaha


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## Soubi7string (Mar 14, 2011)

lookralphsbak said:


> Being an extreme band from NY there are a lot of NYHC influenced bands around here. Bands that have 2-3 breakdowns in every song they write. The fans of this style of music are the pit ninjas that only listen to music with breakdowns so they can dance to them. I don't want to be associated with these bands/fans nor do I want my band associated with them.



I love you.....slayer


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## rotebass (Mar 14, 2011)

lookralphsbak said:


> The only way we won't play a show is if it's with a promoter that has dicked us or if the show is with a band(s) we don't necessarily like or bands that don't fit our style/bands with fans that don't fit our style. Being an extreme band from NY there are a lot of NYHC influenced bands around here. Bands that have 2-3 breakdowns in every song they write. The fans of this style of music are the pit ninjas that only listen to music with breakdowns so they can dance to them. I don't want to be associated with these bands/fans nor do I want my band associated with them. Pay isn't a big deal to us at this point because we are still in the process of building a fan base. Every show we get offered I look at it as "well band A is this genre and band B is this genre, in theory our music is similar enough that their fans will most likely get into our music so we should play this show because we will leave the venue with at least 1 fan". My band as of now is at the point where our "fan base" is mostly made up of family and friends with a handful of people that are legit fans of the music we write and will come see us because we're playing a show. Before we can choose not to play shows for the reasons listed in the original post we need a solid fan base within our hometown.



I disagree with this to an extent, I would understand not wanting to play with a pop punk band if you're playing death metal or something. But refusing to play with bands that play the same genre, because you don't like the way they play it is a bad attitude IMO. For all you know, there could be some kids at that show that would like your band's music, that just happen to also enjoy the other band's music.


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## Razzy (Mar 14, 2011)

rotebass said:


> I disagree with this to an extent, I would understand not wanting to play with a pop punk band if you're playing death metal or something. But refusing to play with bands that play the same genre, because you don't like the way they play it is a bad attitude IMO. For all you know, there could be some kids at that show that would like your band's music, that just happen to also enjoy the other band's music.



+1

My band plays with bands of the same genre all the time that don't do it like us so we can steal their fans.

We had one band in particular get PISSED at us because a lot of THEIR fans left after we played, which was BEFORE they played.


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## AvantGuardian (Mar 14, 2011)

To the OP - I didn't really see in your post WHY you don't want to play the venue.

I think the largest factor that goes into choosing gigs for me is whether or not people will show up, which obviously depends on a lot more than the venue, but the venue does impact that to some extent (i.e. - do people wander in off the street? do my friends like to come out to that neighborhood? is it a place people go hang out whether they know who is playing or not?). 

Things like sound quality, guaranteed money, overall reasonableness of the staff, etc. are important, but in general, lots of people = good gig. If it was pay to play or there was some real asshole running the booking or something, I could see why you'd want to stay away, but if you think you can play there and draw a crowd, why not?


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## Explorer (Mar 14, 2011)

I have a question, since I clearly don't understand something.

I've been in groups where we had an agent, who would get us paying gigs. We'd sell merchandise as well.

If I was in a group which hadn't built up to a certain level, we didn't get gigs. 

*However*... if we were playing out, and had our shit together, we'd be booked for gigs.

----

I've seen book "publishers" who charge someone to print up a bunch of copies. This type of publisher is known as a vanity press.

Is there currently a system where bands pay money in order to play on a stage? 

And, if you're not yet good enough to get a paying gig, what's the angle? Why pay to play on a stage?

If you think you can bring in the crowd, why not just hire a venue and run a show? I've gone that route, and it works out okay. 

Just curious!


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## AvantGuardian (Mar 14, 2011)

^

Here's a little blog/writeup about pay to play:

Pay to Play? - Psychology

Its not mine, but it basically sums it up. I lived in Hollywood for a couple of years and it was annoying as hell when your friends would be begging you to buy tickets to go see them play the Whisky on a Tuesday at like 1am. I don't know of pay to play existing in Seattle, but it was rampant in Hollywood, and basically a scam (i.e. if your band is good enough to make money at a pay to play venue, you're probably too good to be playing that venue). I mean, if its your dream to play at the Roxy for like 10 people and you're willing to pay like $300 to make it happen, fine, but otherwise I'd probably avoid that kind of a deal.


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## Explorer (Mar 14, 2011)

Oh my god, a vanity venue. 

Excellent blog link. +1 to your rep, good sir.


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## troyguitar (Mar 14, 2011)

A lot of venues are like that - bands have to buy X tickets to play. Often the playing order is determined entirely by the number of tickets each band buys. In fact I know of very few venues around here that aren't like that...


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## Soubi7string (Mar 15, 2011)

The Masquerade in atlanta only pays you if you sell enough tickets and if you don't you don't get paid and you are stuck with a heap of tickets you have to buy, last I remember that is.


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## Ryan-ZenGtr- (Mar 15, 2011)

I think Explorer said it best .... Don't enable the exploiters... A culture has grown up globally of the venue exploiting amateur musicians. I doubt anyone here falls into that category. If the musician's unions were still strong, it couldn't happen...

Who else gives their work for free? Don't do it unless it works for you... And again, as Explorer says, hire the venue yourself if you want to put on an event.

I've seen great venues in my area and further afield literally KILL their business with pay to play. Only the noobs will do it, so of course, any one with ears stops visiting the venue randomly and ONLY go at gunpoint or if there is a "worthy" advertised event on. 

By noobs, I'm talking about teeny bands in schools or colleges, singers with still breaking voices.... I'm not painting a picture here, but you get the idea. These used to be places of heritage, but now.... *sigh*

Nothing new though, the London music scene has always been a corrupt hive of villainy. All the famous Brits Americans hear about (1960's) played in Reggie Kray's club, a notorious gangster. 1 example is enough for today.

Mini rant + call to arms my musician brothers & sisters! I hope no one minds.


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## Ryan-ZenGtr- (Mar 15, 2011)

Don't what I wrote, go ready the article AvantGuardian suggested:

Pay to Play? - Psychology

by Scott James

Very cool!

+1 for Ericcsonian affirment PMA stylings!

Looks like an interesting site, too.


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## Ryan-ZenGtr- (Mar 15, 2011)

Hate to overpost, but THIS IS PERHAPS THE MOST IMPORTANT TOPIC ON HERE...

The is the essence of a rebuttal from a promoter-type to the article mentioned above...

"Musicians are lazy and don't promote shows which don't visibly exploit them: pay-to-play is a motivator forcing bands to promote the show"

I know this angle to be valid, but it is a dangerous crutch for venues. He did say one important thing in his rebuttal:

Hustle! 

Remember: promotion is 99.9% of the entertainment industry.

Put it this way, if I wrestled a bear shred into the woods.... and there's no one there to .... etc. etc. etc.


All obvious, I know, but it might help someone.  Which is why we're all here, right?


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## InTheRavensName (Mar 15, 2011)

Depends really. For me, Death Knell is more of a hobby than a serious career prospect. I don't really think we're going to get massive, and it's not a prospective career for me, so I'll play anywhere that has the means to put us on, for nothing, or for money...whatever's offered. Wouldn't pay to play though, plenty of free slots out there...


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## petereanima (Mar 15, 2011)

A gig is a gig, and thats it. Getting out there and play gigs is why i started this band, and one of the main reasons why i'm still doing this.

Our standards are:
.) We dont play with bands who are associated with any Nazishit. NSBM or anything like that can suck it. Nor do we play for bookers/venues who are associated with this kind of stuff. Not because of the music, but because you lose ALL reputation once you are associated with those alikes.

.) We dont pay to play. We DO sell tickets, thats fine for us and REALLY understandable from the bookers POV. With the bookers we have worked/are working, they do their job fine and promote the hell out of the shows, they just dont want to lose cash and need us as an additional source for getting people to the show. We bring them, so its all fine.

And thats it. If the rest of the lineup is poppunk...i dont fucking care, if only 2 people in the room like us, we have 2 followers more and it was worth it. Even further: A gig like this is even more important than playing _again_ the same venue as usual, in front of the same 50 people as usual.

And i really dont want to be a dick here - but if you decline gigs because another band on the bill has breakdowns, or clean emo-vocals, or <insert cliche-trademark here>,...do you have any plans on getting "bigger"? And i dont mean "ZOMGNEXTBROOTALZSUPERSTAR", but just a BIT bigger than you actually are? Because if so, i would drop that attitutde. You dont have to like the music of the other bands on the bill, but with such an attitude you wont get any further, you will keep playing the same 3 gigs every year, in the same 3 venues, with the same 3 other local bands, who are too "true" to play anything else.

Chances are, that a big part of the audience of a more "trendy" band (with breakdowns and/or...blabla), is also interested in real death metal bands. You dont want to get new listeners? Then you can as well stop gigging.

Summed up: If you want to get out there, you must prostitute yourself. To death. Other option is to stay in the garage. Its sad, and i dont like it, but thats how it is.


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## Albionic (Mar 15, 2011)

money has never been an issue for me. unless you are a well established band with record deal and a decent following there is no money in it where i live (south east of england)we just about covered fuel costs

if you really want to make good money you have to learn to play a few hundred covers and play weddings and parties.the other guitarist in my band did this and it became a job and not fun at all

ive played to clubs with 10 people in, played for nothing, played with indie bands,punk bands, black metal bands, even a band that had a drummer bass player and a theramin. 

bear in mind if you play a club in a town for 10 people if you do a good show those ten will tell their friends and next time you play the town there will be more and so on.

i have always been prepared to play anywhere to anyone with anyone


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## SD83 (Mar 15, 2011)

petereanima said:


> A gig is a gig, and thats it. Getting out there and play gigs is why i started this band, and one of the main reasons why i'm still doing this.
> 
> Our standards are:
> .) We dont play with bands who are associated with any Nazishit. NSBM or anything like that can suck it. Nor do we play for bookers/venues who are associated with this kind of stuff. Not because of the music, but because you lose ALL reputation once you are associated with those alikes.
> ...


Yep. Also, I'm not sure what you guys mean by getting paid... on most gigs, we got drinks for free, sometimes food, most of the gigs there were like 20-40  per band... there was one gig last year where we got 100, but that was by far the most we ever got unless we didn't organize the gig. And given the competition in this area, I'm/we're fine with that. Give us something to drink, pay the fuel for our journey and show us where to plug in our amps and place the drumset and we'll play there. There might be exceptions, but yes, a gig is a gig.


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## petereanima (Mar 15, 2011)

Exactly. I mean - as always, it depends on the situation. If the gig is good (many (for us: new) people are expected, i would play without gas-money also...we usually get ~ 50,-, and thats totally fine. Some pay us more, thats even better - but meanwhile,a s we played almost every single club in a big part of the country, i know most bookers, and if i see that he had 30 people paying entry, and still has to pay the touring headliner, i tell him to keep the gas-money, and that he can return the favour next time. 

In the end: t must be FAIR. If i see that the booker has several 100s of people paying entry, drinks are running at the bar, i insist on the money of course.

Actually, there was only 1 time i got angry, which was when the booker didnt even provide water for the supporting bands, but had to PAY for it. Thats the only time i started a bit of a "fight", but besides that? Nah, its usually all cool.


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## Explorer (Mar 15, 2011)

I don't remember if I made this distinction earlier, but I'll say it now.

"Gig" has the understanding that one is getting paid.

Otherwise, you might as well play for free at an open mic event.

And, if you have to *pay* to play at that open mic, then you're even worse off. 

----

Before someone mentions that there are times that one can play for free as a charitable act, I have done this as well. I still have a written contract with the performing conditions, with the value of our playing on the contract as a donation. The people still have to return a signed copy, so that I can use the contract as a receipt of having made a charitable donation. 

Doing this means I don't get treated like shit, like a lot of people who play for nothing but *don't* have a contract. 

The best part about *knowing* I'm making a charitable donation is that I can choose the organizations I want to donate to. It won't be to some scumbag who is making money off my donation....


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## jamsea (Mar 15, 2011)

As someone who books shows (and works closely with the medium to large scale club promoter in my area) having bands sell tickets is a legitimate way to raise attendance. It's also the only way to get most local bands off their ass to promote.

Being a "good" band doesn't matter because everyone's definition of "good" is different, and everyone thinks their band is good whether they're good or not. My friends in a progressive metal band think they're good because they have a million odd time signatures in their songs, my friends in a hardcore punk band think their good because their recordings are 100% DIY, and my friends in a pop punk band think they're good because they sing. You can't pay venue rental fees or out of town band guarantee's with cool riffs and good times.

Concert promoters are the last person to get paid at the end of the night, put the most financial risk into a show. Sure there's a bunch of sleazy ones, but try backing a $3000+ show with your own money and losing $1000 and see how many 12 band/$10 ticket all local shows you throw together after to try to make some of your money back. I've seen a show that had prime time radio ads run twice a day for a month and the band appearing on Much Music (Canadian equivalent of MTV) the day before tank.

TL;DR It's the smaller pay to play shows that pay for the bigger flops.


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## scottro202 (Mar 15, 2011)

petereanima said:


> A gig is a gig, and thats it. Getting out there and play gigs is why i started this band, and one of the main reasons why i'm still doing this.
> 
> Our standards are:
> .) We dont play with bands who are associated with any Nazishit. NSBM or anything like that can suck it. Nor do we play for bookers/venues who are associated with this kind of stuff. Not because of the music, but because you lose ALL reputation once you are associated with those alikes.
> ...



I'm not against playing a bill of bands unlike our music, I'm more concerned with the fact if we're a straight-ahead rock band, would a venue put us on the same bill as a bunch of metalcore bands? Or would a metalcore venue even BOOK a straight-ahead rock group? That's why the style of music is an issue to me, not because I don't dig the music on the bill.


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## petereanima (Mar 16, 2011)

scottro202 said:


> I'm not against playing a bill of bands unlike our music, I'm more concerned with the fact if we're a straight-ahead rock band, would a venue put us on the same bill as a bunch of metalcore bands? Or would a metalcore venue even BOOK a straight-ahead rock group? That's why the style of music is an issue to me, not because I don't dig the music on the bill.



Over here, it happens. Not very often, but it happens. End of last year, we have been booked together with a straight rock band and a black metal band. Strange lineup, but it worked! Oh, and I was of course not referring to you with my previous post!



Explorer said:


> I don't remember if I made this distinction earlier, but I'll say it now.
> 
> "Gig" has the understanding that one is getting paid.
> 
> Otherwise, you might as well play for free at an open mic event. It won't be to some scumbag who is making money off my donation....



For me, a "Gig" implies nothing but "my band can play on that bill that evening". But again - it always depends on the situation! If the gig is a big "chance", lets say a support slot for a big band out of the same genre as you are (read: lots of new people, your "target group" mainly, who havent heard of you yet), than honestly: getting paid is not my main-concern. If its a locals-only show, and i know we are responsible or a big part of the audience, i expect to get paid, and of course we settle those things straight in advance!


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## SD83 (Mar 16, 2011)

Explorer said:


> Before someone mentions that there are times that one can play for free as a charitable act, I have done this as well. I still have a written contract with the performing conditions, with the value of our playing on the contract as a donation. The people still have to return a signed copy, so that I can use the contract as a receipt of having made a charitable donation.


If having a written contract is mandatory to call it "a gig", then I never played one. At least I can't remember ever having one. Even for those gigs that my band organized, we never had a written contract with the venue...


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## Albionic (Mar 16, 2011)

what used to happen in this country is a club/pub will have a band/metal/rock night which is generally full of locals who are there for the social scene and turn up whoever plays and no matter how good you are they will not follow you to other venues. 

most bands can get a small following but most people in this country will really only pay over about £5 to see a band who they listen to at home. 

if you really want people to know who you are you have to be prepared to play for nothing and practically give cd's away.

in our town we could play to a crowd of about 150 people in one club and would have the place jumping and get loads of compliments but the next week we'd be 10 miles down the road and not one person turn up from the other place they'd be still at the same club with their mates complaining about the terrible band that had turned up to "their" club this week.

we found the best way to do it was to book a club night get about 6+ bands to play call it a festival and promote it as if it was ozzfest well in advance. having the night on a holiday (especially halloween) helps.

but i guess you can't really do that every weeek


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## rotebass (Mar 16, 2011)

jamsea said:


> Concert promoters are the last person to get paid at the end of the night, put the most financial risk into a show. Sure there's a bunch of sleazy ones, but try backing a $3000+ show with your own money and losing $1000 and see how many 12 band/$10 ticket all local shows you throw together after to try to make some of your money back. I've seen a show that had prime time radio ads run twice a day for a month and the band appearing on Much Music (Canadian equivalent of MTV) the day before tank.
> 
> TL;DR It's the smaller pay to play shows that pay for the bigger flops.



Lol, every show at the Blind Dog?


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## Joeywilson (Mar 16, 2011)

I think its kind of insulting to play a show and not get paid, bands should at least get gas money so they arn't losing out. Paying to play is lame.


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## jamsea (Mar 16, 2011)

rotebass said:


> Lol, every show at the Blind Dog?



 Blind Dog is all we have for all ages shows, whether we like it or not. It's not a terrible venue though (we either play there or The Coach most months). Waaaay better then the chubby pickle was (especially when it had that stupid inverted circle stage)


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## Soubi7string (Mar 16, 2011)

scottro202 said:


> I'm not against playing a bill of bands unlike our music, I'm more concerned with the fact if we're a straight-ahead rock band, would a venue put us on the same bill as a bunch of metalcore bands? Or would a metalcore venue even BOOK a straight-ahead rock group? That's why the style of music is an issue to me, not because I don't dig the music on the bill.



My band gets booked with bands completely outside our genre.we always have booked with core bands and Christian bands(in which I stand outside only to still have someone bother me about either or lol) and then there's the select times we have some actual death metal and grindcore on the bill.
Nonetheless explorer has the plan, contract and guarantee and if the place doesn't want it then they don't want you.


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## Kride (Mar 16, 2011)

SD83 said:


> Yep. Also, I'm not sure what you guys mean by getting paid... on most gigs, we got drinks for free, sometimes food, most of the gigs there were like 20-40 &#8364; per band... there was one gig last year where we got 100&#8364;, but that was by far the most we ever got unless we didn't organize the gig. And given the competition in this area, I'm/we're fine with that. Give us something to drink, pay the fuel for our journey and show us where to plug in our amps and place the drumset and we'll play there. There might be exceptions, but yes, a gig is a gig.



This

We've got a couple of times like 200EUR for a gig as well but mostly it's gas money, beer, good, etc. Gig is a gig, sometimes we play with rock/pop bands but mostly with metal bands. Always fun times. Starting band shouldn't be too snobby where to play JMO.


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## krypter (Mar 17, 2011)

My policy has always been if its less than a half tank of gas away, we'll play for free. 

Period.

Two reasons:
1. Is there anything MORE fun than playing a show? I mean honestly? What am i going to do say "no sir, i will NOT play your show even though its close. If you won't pay me, I'd rather sit at home and play computer games" Negative. PLaying a show is fun! I'd rather do that than anything else on earth. So...yea, i'll play.

2. Fans. To me the name of the "early game" as i call it, is FANS. Fan base. Building a brigade of fans that will go see you will allow you to get paying gigs else where. Everything...and i mean EVERYTHING in the entertainment industry boils down to fans. The more you have, the better your career is. Thats.....thats the whole point. 
So at the early level i'm far far far more concerned with building a fan base than i am getting $100 to do what i'd want to be doing anyway. If we play a show and get 1 fan then it was successful. Play enough of those and you build a big enough fan base to "headline" and ask for part of the door. 

Besides, if i say "hey mr. venue guy, we'll drive the 10 miles to your place and play for you...for free!" Then, after we rock the joint, bring some folks in, and act like professional, respectable musicians, he'll have us back. And this time we'll ask for a cut. 
If we sell a few shirts and whatever while we're there? All the better.


On the note of playing shows with different musical styles...well....if it falls (at all) under the genre's larger "umbrella" then sure. we'll play. Example: Black Metal, Prog Metal, Thrash, and metalcore all fall under the "metal" umbrella. We're a metal band. So, count us in. So on and so forth. Even if its punk, hard rock, and Prog rock, we'll play as we're a "classic american metal" type band, and those fall under the "logical extension of musical tastes" umbrella. (example: i like the Ramones, Van Halen, and Dream Theater so we'd fit)
I mean, does ANYONE know a mass amount of people that ONLY listen to ONE genre? I don't. I listen to all types of stuff. And can appreciate lots of different things.

Just play man! How bad could it be? Its a chance for you and your buds to hang out, play some rock music, and knock back a few. To hell with paydays and contracts until your career makes that a logical choice. Besides you NEVER know who you'll meet. And what could be more fun on a friday night than hanging out with your buds, playing rock music, and knocking back a few? Nothing.


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## rotebass (Mar 17, 2011)

jamsea said:


> Blind Dog is all we have for all ages shows, whether we like it or not. It's not a terrible venue though (we either play there or The Coach most months). Waaaay better then the chubby pickle was (especially when it had that stupid inverted circle stage)



I like The Coach, really nasty room but has a good vibe for live bands, I actually don't mind The Chubby Pickle. Blind Dog is very hit or miss for me, if the place is full (Dooms Day Fest last year) it can be fun, but nothing is worse than playing a venue that big when it is empty.


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## lookralphsbak (Mar 17, 2011)

rotebass said:


> I disagree with this to an extent, I would understand not wanting to play with a pop punk band if you're playing death metal or something. But refusing to play with bands that play the same genre, because you don't like the way they play it is a bad attitude IMO. For all you know, there could be some kids at that show that would like your band's music, that just happen to also enjoy the other band's music.


I get what you're saying but our genre is symphonic death doom. We've gotten billed with hardcore/hardcore influenced bands. We don't mind playing with deathcore/hardcore etc but we would rather not. If we're friends with the band we'll play but as far as bands that attract pit ninjas, that's not our scene. I don't know how familiar you are with the NYC metal scene or NYHC scene, it's violent, especially when you get pitting crews involved. 

I know you won't always get billed with bands you like but I'd rather play with a death metal or black metal band over a deathcore or hardcore band.
It's not the actual band, it's the fans. I don't support the violence they bring to the pit and I wouldn't want that happening during our set. Our first show our drummer brought his hxc tough guy friends to our show, they were dancing during our set and crowd bashing, a fight started and shit blew up. That was the first turn off, and that was after we warned him not to bring his hxc friends to our shows.


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## Ill-Gotten James (Mar 17, 2011)

For me personally I prefer to play shows that pay a set amount. Having to worry about pre-selling tickets, or a head count can be a pain in the ass. The band I am in will play shows for free, but only if the venue will generate a decent amount of new exposure for our band. Hence, being a coattail rider for an evening. Last, ideally while I love the stage, audience satisfaction of the music really drives me to preform better and put my all into the show. Playing a venue with bands of the same genre, or sub-genre really helps. If you're metalcore, try finding some other metalcore bands to play with, if the music is post-punk, then look for other bands in that scene to play with. Yeah I like the music that I play, but I want other people to enjoy it too. What I don't want is a bunch of people just standing there cringing, waiting for the next act, that happens to play music that is a polar opposite of the music that I play. However, depending on what your goals of the band are, a gig might just be a gig. If a gig is just a gig to you, then play every show you can. Otherwise, it does not hurt to be a little picky... but not too picky. 

This is just my 2 cents.


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## troyguitar (Mar 17, 2011)

krypter said:


> On the note of playing shows with different musical styles...well....if it falls (at all) under the genre's larger "umbrella" then sure. we'll play. Example: Black Metal, Prog Metal, Thrash, and metalcore all fall under the "metal" umbrella. We're a metal band. So, count us in. So on and so forth. Even if its punk, hard rock, and Prog rock, we'll play as we're a "classic american metal" type band, and those fall under the "logical extension of musical tastes" umbrella. (example: i like the Ramones, Van Halen, and Dream Theater so we'd fit)
> I mean, does ANYONE know a mass amount of people that ONLY listen to ONE genre? I don't. I listen to all types of stuff. And can appreciate lots of different things.



When it comes to rock and many metal variants, most people I know are cool with most of it but there is definitely a divide when it comes to 'extreme' styles. 99% of my friends are more 'rock' fans than 'metal' and will never like stuff with blastbeats or growlies or super tech-y/prog-y shit that's hard to follow. They're the type who will make comments like 'that shit's not even music!' so it's really hard to get them to come out to any metal show ever. This is why we're thinking of booking shows with regular rock bands and starting to call ourselves hard rock instead of metal.


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## krypter (Mar 18, 2011)

troyguitar said:


> When it comes to rock and many metal variants, most people I know are cool with most of it but there is definitely a divide when it comes to 'extreme' styles. 99% of my friends are more 'rock' fans than 'metal' and will never like stuff with blastbeats or growlies or super tech-y/prog-y shit that's hard to follow. They're the type who will make comments like 'that shit's not even music!' so it's really hard to get them to come out to any metal show ever. This is why we're thinking of booking shows with regular rock bands and starting to call ourselves hard rock instead of metal.




good note. Extreme styles aren't always applicable to my "umbrella" rule. Being a "classic american metal" kind of sound we don't fit well on "extreme" bills. But in smaller local areas you'll be hard pressed to find a bill 100% made up of "extreme" bands.

Anyway, your point stands though. Good exception.


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## scottro202 (Mar 20, 2011)

So, that venue, I refused to book in the OP.

Guess who just sent them an email when they posted they want a rock/hard rock band for a show next month?


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## McKay (Mar 23, 2011)

Explorer said:


> I have one *huge* standard for a gig being a gig: actually getting paid.
> 
> That's it. If the pay is right, I'll do a wedding or a bar mitzvah.
> 
> ...





Good luck not making every promoter in the area despise you for being arrogant and greedy. It's shit but that's the way it is.


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## eaeolian (Mar 23, 2011)

Explorer said:


> I don't remember if I made this distinction earlier, but I'll say it now.
> 
> "Gig" has the understanding that one is getting paid.
> 
> ...



Depends on your motivations, actually. Have I accepted non-paying gigs in front of large-ish audiences as a fanbase builder? Yes, since being "good" has very little to do with, as a club owner friend of mine says all the time, "putting assess in the seats". If you kick ass on those shows, you usually make a pretty decent merch turn, anyway.

Then again, I have one band that ONLY plays when it gets paid, but that's a different kettle of fish. So it all depends on long-term goals.

That said, there's nothing I hate more than Pay To Play - I will NOT pay for tickets in advance and then get stuck with them. Our usual arrangement during ticket sales is we get paid $X.XX per ticket sold, but we don't pay anything upfront. I don't like ticket sales much - it allows a promoter to be lazy simply because they have venue control, in a lot of cases - but I'm not against the idea if it benefits us as well.


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## Explorer (Mar 23, 2011)

McKay said:


> Good luck not making every promoter in the area despise you for being arrogant and greedy. It's shit but that's the way it is.



Hmm.

That is such a weird attitude. Why would someone who understands that it's a business think that you're greedy for also looking after your bottom line? 

When I was playing music as a full-time pro, I was earning to support a family, not just getting my jollies by wanking on stage. *That* is probably one of the best explanations for the differences in attitude in this thread, the fact that it was my main job. 

I never had a problem with paying for a booking agent, instead of doing that myself. The agent was more plugged in, and earned her keep by getting paying jobs for us. Was *she* greedy? *laugh*

I like the idea that anyone would be judged as greedy for getting a decent job. 

----

Look, as I believe I pointed out earlier, it all depends on what your looking for. If you're looking to earn a living as a musician, it's an entirely different mindset from thinking about getting on stage and playing in front of people. If you're seriously pursuing music as a living, then although you will be perfroming for people, that isn't the main goal. Playing a vanity show, where you're paying some promoter to play on some stage, isn't putting food in front of your kid. 

Incidentally, that kid I worked to feed is now making money by playing music on stage. That kid doesn't pay to play, but instead finds out how much something would pay, and makes choices based on that. Well-run and -managed bands, booking agents, contracts, the whole nine yards.

Now, with that in mind... how much credence do you think "pay to play" holds with me, when we're talking on the phone about upcoming gigs? 

Paying to play a gig, instead of getting paid... in my opinion, you're doing it wrong.

But I could be wrong. How is that working out for ya?


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## troyguitar (Mar 24, 2011)

What are you playing that's actually making money? I'm guessing it's not what 99% of the people on this forum play (original metal) because you'd need to be a well-known name internationally to make a living at it. As far as I know you aren't unless you're hiding your identity


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## Explorer (Mar 24, 2011)

Assuming that question was directed at me, I think I noted that I no longer play professionally. I was in the DC area at the time. 

I did talk to my kid today, as he called me to talk about an upcoming road tour he'll be doing. I asked him if he ever plays for free. He said he occasionally will do charity gigs, but that he couldn't afford to work for nothing. Otherwise he'd have to get a day job, and do music as a hobby....

Anyway, I'm out of the conversation. I'm sure there are lots of good arguments for the other side, even though I never bought into it. 

Cheers!


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## McKay (Mar 26, 2011)

I'll rephrase then, 'if you're playing metal or anything similar'.

Where I live promoters will blacklist you for asking for anything more than petrol money and a few quid if they're putting you on a good gig. I know this because I know a few pretty well. Fact is, unless you're in a big, popular band, the promoter won't make much money at all. They only give riders and any large sum of money to bands that pull big crowds.


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## Unclemonkel (Aug 21, 2011)

jamsea said:


> Blind Dog is all we have for all ages shows, whether we like it or not. It's not a terrible venue though (we either play there or The Coach most months). Waaaay better then the chubby pickle was (especially when it had that stupid inverted circle stage)



A lot of local venues are total holes, and it sucks to play in a place where you don't feel valued for the amount of work you put into preparing for the show.
It sucks standing around a shitty venue, definitely.

But for me, the moment I start playing is the moment I stop caring about how shitty the venue is, or how much I'm not making that night. Playing music fucking rocks, so I'll take the chances I can to do it.

Besides, girls love rock stars.


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## noob_pwn (Aug 21, 2011)

My advice: put up with shit shows, not getting paid, playing with shit bands, playing to no crowds. Bands don't die of exposure, that's bullshit. If nobody knows who you are they wont buy your shit or watch you play.
After 2.5 years of shit, my band got signed today and this is what we had to do to get to this point, all over the country.
Yeah it matters where you play and who with but take what you can get and don't get ahead of yourself too early, learning to be humble and really appreciating the good shows is very important. If you don't work your ass off and don't take every opportunity you come across, don't expect to get anywhere.
just my 2c


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## brootalboo (Aug 22, 2011)

Wow. Just wow. I can't believe some of the stuff I've read in this thread (not in a bad way, just surprised!).

In Los Angeles, you NEED to sign a contract saying you will sell a fixed amount of tickets before you play for almost EVERY venue if you are a local band. The Whiskey, House of Blues, Viper Room, Troubador, etc, unless you know somebody that's booking the show (and for us those shows come VERY rarely).

For the people saying you don't play a show unless you are paid (and that you aren't good enough until you start getting paid), where do you start off? Do you just start doing promotion online before you ever get somebody to pay for you?

I'm very surprised because in my band, a show that you get to play free is a BLESSING. The norm is pay to play around here. I guess it's different depending on what city you live in.


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## BrianUV777BK (Aug 22, 2011)

Ckackley said:


> Almost every club/venure in the US is set up this way unfrotunately.





Sooooooooooo effing true!


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## BrianUV777BK (Aug 22, 2011)

I've played gigs where we had to sell X amount of tickets for X amount of money and we get to keep $2 from each ticket but we had to sell a minimun amount of tickets or else we were paying for the unsold tix. I've done that opening for Overkill, Black Dahlia Murder, Decapitated, Exodus and some others I can't remember.

I've also played gigs were there were no tickets but ya got maybe $5 bucks from every head you brought in the door that said your name.

I've mostly played gigs where there was no money at all.

Either way you look at it as long as there is a crowd and you get a good response....."a gig is a gig" to me.

I did just play a suck ass gig this past Saturday where they booked my hard rock/progressive band with 3 pop punk bands. The venue was new and further than most of our limited fan base wanted to travel. They put us on last. THe 3 pop punk bands were all friends and left as soon as they were done and took their few fans with them. So it was one of those "play for your girlfriends" gigs.


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## chronocide (Aug 22, 2011)

Varies depending on the band. 

I used to dep for wedding/function gigs. I played pretty much 3 gigs a week, every week, for five years. I rarely did a gig for less than £150, I would do some for a bit less if the band were friends of mine or if I thought it'd lead to more work.

With bands, one of mine will play pretty much anything.

Another will do most things so long as we've not played in that area much recently and especially if we think we'll play to people who will likely be into us, or who we can really upset. Yes, that's a genuine statement, we're an extremely hard-left band in terms of vibe and lyrics and play very uncomfortable doom/sludge/noise, and we enjoy playing to people who we can annoy politically or musically.

Another of mine will only do very specific gigs. If we're asked to play with bands we're big fans of or it's a good opportunity. We live 400 miles apart so the logistics of rehearsing means it really needs to be something worthwhile.


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## Explorer (Aug 22, 2011)

chronocide said:


> Another will do most things so long as we've not played in that area much recently and especially if we think we'll play to people who will likely be into us, or who we can really upset. Yes, that's a genuine statement, we're an extremely hard-left band in terms of vibe and lyrics and play very uncomfortable doom/sludge/noise, and we enjoy playing to people who we can annoy politically or musically.



I remember seeing footage of Christian band Dove, the Band of Love, playing at a Republican fundraiser. They spent a long time on the intro to Worried Man, at least 8 minutes, with the singer continually lifting the mic like he was going to sing and then letting another repeat of the intro swing by. It was extremely painful to watch, and I believe Dove, the Band of Love, got pulled off stage and kicked out after a long drawn-out intro that went... nowhere. *laugh*

Which suited the members of Dove, the Band of Love, just fine, as they were actually Devo extending the Dadaist philosophy behind the band. 

I couldn't find the footage on YouTube, but I know I have it on some Devo video or another....


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## Leuchty (Aug 23, 2011)

In short...

YES. A gig is a gig. You never know WHO is watching.

My band is still hanging for more and more shows. We take anything and everything. If we get to play live, we're happy.


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## Soubi7string (Aug 23, 2011)

CYBERSYN said:


> In short...
> 
> YES. A gig is a gig. You never know WHO is watching.
> 
> My band is still hanging for more and more shows. We take anything and everything. If we get to play live, we're happy.



my band Wideyedaze would play with yours <3 lol


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## Leuchty (Aug 23, 2011)

Soubi7string said:


> my band Wideyedaze would play with yours <3 lol


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## BrianUV777BK (Aug 23, 2011)

chronocide said:


> We live 400 miles apart so the logistics of rehearsing means it really needs to be something worthwhile.




Dude, that is CRAZY 

You guys must really click to travel that far just to practice!


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## WhiteWalls (Aug 23, 2011)

I don't know if the situation is better in north america and northern europe, but here in italy there's just NO WAY to even think about getting paid if you're playing metal.
in fact, the best chances to play are the various music contests that pop out a couple of times a year, where you have to pay to participate, but as long as the fee for the whole band is less than 70-80&#8364; i still consider it a good deal because you get to play at least 2-3 shows and even though it's impossible to win (because metal bands just cannot win these contests, period), it's pretty much the only chance to play a bit.
we consider ourselves lucky if we get a free sandwich and beer, just to state how things work here.

my band is just starting out, we are only 1 year old and we started strictly as a cover band for the first 6 months, but still 4 out of the 6 gigs we played were for a music contest, and i would gladly pay the 75&#8364; fee again to do 4 more.


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## Explorer (Aug 23, 2011)

WhiteWalls said:


> I don't know if the situation is better in north america and northern europe, but here in italy there's just NO WAY to even think about getting paid if you're playing metal.
> in fact, the best chances to play are the various music contests that pop out a couple of times a year, where you have to pay to participate, but as long as the fee for the whole band is less than 70-80 i still consider it a good deal because you get to play at least 2-3 shows and even though it's impossible to win (because metal bands just cannot win these contests, period), it's pretty much the only chance to play a bit.
> we consider ourselves lucky if we get a free sandwich and beer, just to state how things work here.
> 
> my band is just starting out, we are only 1 year old and we started strictly as a cover band for the first 6 months, but still 4 out of the 6 gigs we played were for a music contest, and i would gladly pay the 75 fee again to do 4 more.



So... have you ever considered looking for a place you can rent, and then selling tickets and pocketing what you make? Maybe starting small and building an audience?

Just wondering!


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## Soubi7string (Aug 24, 2011)

CYBERSYN said:


>



band bromance

Slayer.....lol


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## Soubi7string (Aug 24, 2011)

Explorer said:


> So... have you ever considered looking for a place you can rent, and then selling tickets and pocketing what you make? Maybe starting small and building an audience?
> 
> Just wondering!



popular thing in the south here is to find a friend with a garage,basement, whatever and check the other bands and then put on a show.


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## Hyliannightmare (Aug 25, 2011)

we will pretty much play anywhere because we are sitll in our formative stages


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## monkeywrench (Aug 28, 2011)

for the rjght amount of money i'll play anywhere


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## cronux (Sep 5, 2011)

first off, this is a great thread!
secondly, for my 2 cents 

to play a gig, my band needs 2 things to happen:

1. good organization: gig posters need to be up, some media promotion (forums, facebook, myspace, youtube if possible...), a good relationship with the guy that's organizing the gig -> when to be at the location, whens the tone test, will there be any catering, how long is the playing time per band, what equipment will be there etc.

2. we need travel expenses to be paid... we will play anywhere if after the show we will be at 0% loss for the gig. we feel that we haven't quite reached the "i am a metal god" status and therefore can't ask to get payed. but things are looking well and we have a tone guy and manager... as our EP will soon hit the streets and when we finish our euro tour we will ask for money + traveling expenses per gig... 

at my country things are kinda bad... you can play, let's say, a festival but you'll go there at your own expense, play during the day (20-30min at best), manage your own food etc. it's a pain in the a** but you can always say that you've played "at that festival"... 

all in all, we're all up for playing live... but some standards have to be met...


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## Scar Symmetry (Sep 5, 2011)

Never really understood this mentality, I always figured it as a hard-and-fast rule that meant you never had to think about whether to play a gig or not. If the band's philosophy is to better the band at every opportunity then it should be applied to choosing not to play shows also. Playing a particular show or indeed too many of the wrong type of shows for the wrong amount of money can earn you a reputation with promoters that can be hard to shake. I've not been in a band that's done this because it seemed like common sense to me, but I see it happening a lot.


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## cronux (Sep 5, 2011)

well yeah...

but still, i wouldn't play just any gig... a lot of things come to mind. if we, as a band, don't get (let's say) gas coverage chances are we won't play. we have to pay our monthly band space rent and 3/4 of us don't work (collage) so the income is small :/

not to mention merchandise, recording, mix/masters etc. that you have to pay... 

if we get an offer to play Wacken and we have to cover all our expences than ok... but if you play some bar or gym with no PA system, have to carry your entire backline, travel 200 miles and play 4 free -> hell no


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## petereanima (Sep 5, 2011)

cronux said:


> if we get an offer to play Wacken and we have to cover all our expences than ok... but if you play some bar or gym with no PA system, have to carry your entire backline, travel 200 miles and play 4 free -> hell no



Thats ~50% of our gigs.

I mean we DO get "gasmoney", but often it wont cover it complete. But I dont care. Even if we reach only ONE person at that show, obtained one single new fan - it was worth it, and money cant buy that. Hell, at our first show in Germany (first one outside of Austria), we drove 800km (1600 in total), and as only 40-50 people showed up (and there were more expensive headliners also), the guy made a total loss. He offered as a few bucks, we declined, as we really saw that he lost a serious amount of money that evening. And you know what? We played there again (with much more people attending that time). The band that played after us, insisting on the full cash, did not.

One just needs to realize - if you want to take your band outside of your country, you ARE going to make a financial loss. Thats it. Tour? Financial loss to the max. I can only recommend everyone to FORGET the idea of getting away equal. It may work for selected single shows, but than please forget the idea of "making it" (whatever that means today).


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## KingAenarion (Sep 6, 2011)

petereanima said:


> Thats ~50% of our gigs.
> 
> I mean we DO get "gasmoney", but often it wont cover it complete. But I dont care. Even if we reach only ONE person at that show, obtained one single new fan - it was worth it, and money cant buy that. Hell, at our first show in Germany (first one outside of Austria), we drove 800km (1600 in total), and as only 40-50 people showed up (and there were more expensive headliners also), the guy made a total loss. He offered as a few bucks, we declined, as we really saw that he lost a serious amount of money that evening. And you know what? We played there again (with much more people attending that time). The band that played after us, insisting on the full cash, did not.
> 
> One just needs to realize - if you want to take your band outside of your country, you ARE going to make a financial loss. Thats it. Tour? Financial loss to the max. I can only recommend everyone to FORGET the idea of getting away equal. It may work for selected single shows, but than please forget the idea of "making it" (whatever that means today).



Playing a show and getting one fan from it when you make a monetary loss is hardly worth it unless that fan goes crazy and convinces hundreds of people to listen to you. 

A band IS a business after all...


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## Scattered Messiah (Sep 6, 2011)

My Band discussed this topic last rehersal, as we are still writing our first stuff (prog extreme metal), and we think:

- We do not want to play a gig, that will cause us a financial loss. Promoting our own gig as hard as we can is an absolute must, but if we are forced to buy and resell XXX tickets at this stage of publicity won't work out. I don't get how someone would not want to promote his gig, the more people come to hear you, the better ... or not?

- As far as bands are concerned: we won't play with nazi bands (or every literally extremist band) or in such venues. This sticks to you, and ain't no good.
As far as style or genre is concerned, we will pay with anything, that somehow fits together with us. Meaning, we won't play with a poprock band, but there is no problem with metal, prog, post-stuff or crossover ect, as long as there is a chance we might get people interested in our stuff.
No matter how big you are, for corner genres it is almost impossible to find a completely matching bands to gig with...

that's basically it. A written contract is appreciated, or someone we trust tells us to trust the booker ... I have seen a lot of bands getting ripped of, by being told "you will get paid" and then being given 5 beer and a smile.


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## petereanima (Sep 7, 2011)

KingAenarion said:


> Playing a show and getting one fan from it when you make a monetary loss is hardly worth it unless that fan goes crazy and convinces hundreds of people to listen to you.
> 
> A band IS a business after all...



I really dont know about the situation in Sidney, or Australia in general - in Europe, forget the idea of getting away even, let alone making a profit. It wont work, unless you play in your hometown (or near it) only.

I'm not talking about EVERY gig, but the further away the gig is, the higher the loss usually. At least for the first few times. We for example- when we play in Vienna, we make profit. When we play the nearest states (lower austria, styria, etc) we make little profit, or sometimes at least get away even.

Further away (rest of austrian states, or Germany/Czech/Slovakia/Hungary/...) - we make a financial loss very often (depends on if we sell shirts or not etc.etc.).


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## Mysticlamp (Sep 8, 2011)

some of you guys must either be in some pretty big established bands or not play many shows? cause not taking a loss is almost unheard of around here, whether we play 2 hours away or 20 minutes away we usually just make something like 20 bucks from the promoter and maybe a little more if we sell merch


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## chronocide (Sep 9, 2011)

KingAenarion said:


> A band IS a business after all...



Not for many, many people.


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## Ckackley (Sep 9, 2011)

If people ran bands as a business there would be WAY fewer bands. I don't know of any business that can outlay thousands of dollars worth of gear, travel to shows, break even or LOSE money and keep operating. lol 
On a REALLY good gig my band will clear a couple hundred bucks between venue/merch. The occasional big show we've made a good bit more. BUT , 80% of the shows we play break even if you factor in gas. Which we don't . The band members pretty much supply that so we can go play 'rockstar'. 
If you want to make money on most gigs or have any kind of a guarantee you need to be in a cover band. I know a few guys making a decent second living with covers. However they HATE it as much as they hate their "day job".

Edited because I spell like a two year old sometimes...


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