# Ron Thorn's take on CNC and timeframes etc. (interesting read)



## HighGain510

This was taken from a thread a while back where someone questioned CNC vs "Hand-made" guitars and how much work it actually takes. Ron went a step further and even broke it down by how many hours he could spend on a typical guitar. Great read considering how many people have been discussing how fast or slow a custom guitar, body or neck "should" really take to build.



Ron Thorn said:


> I'm game.
> 
> First off, there is no shop, large or small, that is entirely CNC. It does not exist. I think most individuals would be surprised by what a guitar component looks like when it comes off a CNC. It is no where near complete, there is still plenty of hand sanding, fitting, etc.
> 
> Here's a break down of what I do with the CNC and "by hand".
> 
> CNC:
> Fretboards - you asked "why
> they've gone to the CNC and what aspect of things is better". The fretboard is so brutally important that it is ideal for CNC accuracy. I perimeter, slot, radius, and rout for inlays all in one set-up on the CNC. Than insures spot-on fret slot placement (VERY important to the quality of the guitar), consistent radii including compound radiusing, and inlays that are very tight and free of sloppy filler/gaps.
> Total time on the CNC: 20 minutes
> 
> Necks - Once the blank has been bandsawn ("by hand") to an oversized shape the CNC will machine the neck carve, perimeter the neck and heel, shape the headstock, drill for tuners, rout for truss rod and rout for logo & purfling. This is done through 6 different set-ups.
> Total time on the CNC: 1 hour, 45 minutes.
> 
> Bodies - The CNC performs all cavity routing (top & back), neck pocket routing, perimeter, top carve, and bridge location holes. On a pivot style trem, such as a PRS trem, the location of those 6 holes must be perfectly inline to prevent binding of the trem during use.
> Total time on the CNC for a body with carve top: 3 hours
> 
> Inlays - Production inlays, such as my Firesuns and "T" logo, are cut on the CNC for a perfect fit into the routes on the fretboard and headstock. I also "rip" my purfling strips on the CNC too.
> Total time for one guitar's worth: 15 minutes
> 
> Components - I machine my own 1-pc. brass tremolos, pickup covers and rings, knobs, back plates, truss rod covers, and jack plates.
> Total time worth: Approx: 10 hours.
> Granted, all of these parts are "custom" for my guitars exclusively. I could purchase all of these parts from guitar supply shops but prefer to make my own.
> 
> None of the above times include any programming, set-up or material preparation...all of which are done "by hand".
> 
> _____________________
> 
> "By hand"
> This term, I assume, includes feeding or pushing the component through a power tool such as a planer, jointer, drum sander, bandsaw etc.
> 
> Fretboards:
> Pre CNC: The wood is bandsawn to an oversize thickness and feed through a drum sander to flatten.
> 
> Post CNC - The fretboard needs to:
> Have the side dots drilled and glued in.
> Inlays and purfling glued in.
> Glue the board to the neck blank.
> Level and true the board.
> Fret and fretdress.
> Total time "by hand": 13 hours for the above operations. My fret preparation (cutting to length, nipping the tang, grinding the tang), fret installation and dress is a total of 6 hours alone...no CNC for any of those operations.
> 
> Necks:
> Pre CNC:
> The wood is milled and rough cut to shape, using tracing templates, on a table saw and bandsaw before it gets to the CNC.
> Post CNC:
> Install the truss rod and filler strip,
> blend the neck into the fretboard,
> inlay logo and purfling,
> final shape the neck carve to spec using rasps, spindle sanders and lots of elbow grease sanding then sanding some more,
> gluing the neck into the body.
> Total time "by hand": 8-10 hours easily.
> 
> Body:
> Pre CNC:
> Split top, joint edges, bookmatch glue together, sand to thickness.
> Mill/sand body to thickness.
> Locate and glue top to body spread then sand and drill locating hole for the CNC.
> Post CNC:
> Inlay purfling.
> Drill for controls, side jack, wiring channels.
> Radius back edge on router table.
> SAND from 150 grit to 320/400
> Total time "by hand": 10-15 hours depending on the wood species.
> 
> Paint:
> Prep, mask off, stain, seal, color, top coat, lots of sanding in between, lots of sanding after, buffing...the list goes on. No CNC for these ops.
> Total time "by hand": 28 hours if all goes right the first time...it never does.
> 
> Assembly:
> Installation of components (tuners, pickups, bridge, etc), wiring, cutting the nut, set up.
> Total time "by hand": 6-8 hours
> 
> The above is only visually productive acts, not including ordering wood and components, e-mails, shipping, and just plain running the business.
> 
> _______
> 
> So, if we deduct the custom components and use off the shelf bridges, pickup rings, etc. The average total time is:
> CNC: 5 hours, 20 minutes.
> "By hand": 69 hours, 30 minutes.
> 
> I consider my shop to be fairly state of the art, I have a large HAAS CNC for the woodwork, and 2 smaller CNCs for the pearl inlay work. The only additional automated CNC-type machinery would be a Plek and a robotic buffer. I could see that only reducing the "by hand" total by a couple/few hours at most.
> 
> Not mentioned would be a custom one-off inlay that I, or my father, would do "by hand" with a jeweler's saw and a mini router. The time spent on that could be from 45 minutes to 100s of hours depending on the design.
> 
> 
> However small in comparison those 5 hours, 20 minutes seem...they are VERY important to the outcome of the guitar. Accuracy and consistancy are unmatched. There are features, such as my double offset purfling, that just can't physically be done by hand. Fretslots accurate to within .0005" of an inch...heck, the wood will expand or contract more than that by the time I turn the lights off in the shop at the end of the day...but it's good to know they are as accurate as can be.
> Inlays that are gap free and clean are important to me. I'm not a fan of filler and I don't want that to be a part of my product. Even with hand cut and routed inlays, I feel we are one of the best at making them tight and clean.
> 
> Can I build a guitar with out a CNC, sure.
> WOULD I now if I didn't have one...I doubt it, because I would always feel the guitar isn't as good as it can be WITH the help of a CNC.
> There you have one take on it from a CNC builder.
> 
> Ron Thorn
> Thorn Custom Guitars & Inlay
> 
> "Powered by HAAS...and loving it  "





So there you have it... calculate up all that time PER instrument (heck, someone calculated out how much Ron makes per hour just based on one guitar and it was shockingly low  ) and then multiply it by how many orders someone like Chris Woods, Mike Sherman or Ron Thorn is looking at and it equals a huge headache with very little money made from it. They truly do their job for the love of it.  Plus another thing to consider is that Ron has been using CNC for several years and has an engineering background so he is faster than most luthiers just starting out with one or using a smaller setup. Hope this helps to clear up some misconceptions about how "easy" it is to use a CNC and how little time it must take using one. Ron said he would take using CNC over "totally handbuilt" (which is a term that makes me laugh a bit, because if you're using machines like bandsaws it's STILL a machine ) guitars any day, so keep in mind that even though it's a time-saver once you get it down, there are still a TON of things that require a lot of hands on attention after the CNC part is completed.


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## eaeolian

I always find the "it's gotta be totally handmade" argument crap. Ever try and intonate a pre-CINC guitar? It's a friggin' nightmare, in most cases.

Truth be told, the overall quality of guitars is much higher now than it's ever been, and extremely accurate machines play an important role in that success.


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## HighGain510

eaeolian said:


> I always find the "it's gotta be totally handmade" argument crap. Ever try and intonate a pre-CINC guitar? It's a friggin' nightmare, in most cases.
> 
> Truth be told, the overall quality of guitars is much higher now than it's ever been, and extremely accurate machines play an important role in that success.



Exactly.  However great the benefit in time-saving and accuracy is, there is still a TON of hand work involved so it's not as simple as "throw wood on table, bolt down, press button, completed product." like some people suggest or believe. There is a TON of work that goes into these guitar necks, bodies etc.! My hat is always off to guys like Ron, Mike and even guys like Chris (who are a bit behind but still doing it regardless) because there is a ton of work involved and many people often take that for granted. No cookie cutter guitars yet fellas!


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## jacksonplayer

eaeolian said:


> Truth be told, the overall quality of guitars is much higher now than it's ever been, and extremely accurate machines play an important role in that success.



Very true. I think back to the '80s, and almost anything below a top-level guitar (Gibson, Fender, Jackson, Kramer USA, etc.) was total crap. There was certainly nothing like the Schecter Diamond Series back then. And even those guitars and the Korean Ibanez have come quite a ways just in the last few years.

Beyond aesthetics, most of what gives an individual guitar its "mojo" is the tonal property of the wood, not whether it was made using machines or hand-carved by elves. I'll take a guitar made to exacting tolerances using sophisticated machines, thank you.


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## eaeolian

jacksonplayer said:


> Beyond aesthetics, most of what gives an individual guitar its "mojo" is the tonal property of the wood, not whether it was made using machines or hand-carved by elves. I'll take a guitar made to exacting tolerances using sophisticated machines, thank you.



In most cases, that accounts for some of the price difference, as well - I remember pictures of the Hamer and Jackson factories from the '90s where there was an entire pallet of wood that was the "reject pile".

I find myself wondering if Jackson still rejects that much wood...


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## DslDwg

Great post - I hadn't seen that before. I have an interest in one day building guitars - at least for my self and that was so very insightful. 

I have run service and production businesses in the past although not something like a guitar building shop. Based on the hours that Ron lists to produce a single guitar I would say no less than $4500 just for the labor - not including a single component or piece of material. The fact that his operation is out of California probably you can probably multiply X1.5 or 2. 

It just cracks me up when these young guitar players want to go the custom route but don't have custom money or custom patients. I mean if your not serious leave these guys alone so that the people that are serious can be serviced. 

I think you're very correct in saying that most smaller luthiers do this because they love their job and love the creation of a musical instrument. 

I was talking to a guy on this board that I was considering buying parts from Warmoth because I liked the idea of putting the guitar together myself. So I showed him which body in general I was interested in - I think it was about $600. He said I was crazy and paying that kind of money (too expensive). I understand Warmoth is not doing things with anywhere near the complexity of Ron's stuff but based on what Ron says about body construction and paint - I'm thinking that's a smoking deal. 

I think part of what hurts custom builders on their pricing is how inexpensive some really decent guitars have become. Meaning mass produced guitars. You can go buy a decent fixed bridge Ibanez for $300 so why does this luthier want to charge me $300+ just for a simple unfinished body? They have no concept that the $300 Ibanez is built by a workforce that gets paid next to nothing. It's built in a building that costs next to nothing. The employees are not offered insurance and 401k's. The woods are no where near the quality tone woods that most luthiers use. The components are bought on such a mass quantity that they get the deepest discounts. How can a luthier who purchases 15 floyd roses trems per year compare with a company that purchases 1500 - or in Ibanez's case makes a licensed product which again is made overseas in sweat shops for penny's on the dollar. 

A buddy of mine told me this great story - he's a pro musician. When recording his first record the engineer/producer asked what he was playing. He had some of the higher end Ibanez models. To which the producer replied that they had the tonal qualities of a coffee table. My buddy was kind of offended he thought they were pretty nice guitars - although he has since shifted to Conklins which he gladly waits a year to get made. 

 Thanks great stuff.


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## ChrisPcritter

One of the things that drew me to Taylor guitars when I was looking at acoustics was the "best guitar we can make" philosophy. At the time, if a person could make the part better than a machine, then a man made it, if a cnc machine made a better part, a machine made it. 
Great post....Thanks...


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## Apophis

One of the greatest post I've ever read.  I hope now everybody can see how looks luthier's work and how many luthiers have to devote to make great guitars and sell them with not so high prices.
Thanks


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## jacksonplayer

eaeolian said:


> I find myself wondering if Jackson still rejects that much wood...



One would hope so. There has to be some reason it takes them two years to build a guitar.


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## robanomoly

Very informative post. Thank you for sharing.


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## dpm

Thanks for posting this. I hope everyone reads it and understands how much is involved in custom building instruments.

For anyone interested, I don't have a CNC (yet) simply because I can't afford to set one up at this stage. Like Thorn my interest is in accuracy and repeatability. I currently use the next best thing - CNC cut templates and jigs. The wood aspect is fairly efficient and accurate using this approach, so given the opportunity my first steps into CNC will be for custom components like bridges and pickup parts. Thorn's time estimate sounds pretty close to how long I spend on a guitar - if everything goes smoothly


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## God Hand Apostle

dpm said:


> - if everything goes smoothly



This is soooo true! If anyone has ever tried to build an instrument or anything for that matter, stupid shit always happens. You could plan and engineer as long as you want and something doesnt fit, or physically work out.

You could set a cut / sanded guitar body on a piece of carpeting so it won't get hurt, but behold, there was a woodchip embedded in the carpeting which has now dented your work...do you get a wet rag and a soldering iron to pull it out? do you get some filler? how long does that take to dry, resand etc. did you want a trans finish?...now you cant. It is not easy to do, and thats a huge part of why over a year now, I've only called Rob at KxK like twice. He's got a lot of shit to deal with without me bugging him about work to do.


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## skinhead

I read it on Project Guitar. Awesome information.


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## Desecrated

Great read, thanks.


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## Variant

Yeah, I'm a process manager/engineer at a laser cutting firm, there's no way you're going to convince me that precision can be maintained by hand. We can maintain a .0005" tolerance across parts.


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## HighGain510

skinhead said:


> I read it on Project Guitar. Awesome information.



 Ron wrote up the post on the Gear Page, he doesn't post anything on Project Guitar Frank!


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## ESPManiac

Thanks for that mate!

CNC Machines are such a help. I just wish i had one when i was building guitars.

Two guitars + 1 month + no-CNC + all hand = long bloody month!


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## Drew

> Not mentioned would be a custom one-off inlay that I, or my father, would do "by hand" with a jeweler's saw and a mini router. The time spent on that could be from 45 minutes to 100s of hours depending on the design.



This is the one place where I'd draw the line. For me, elaborate inlays are more of an "art" thing than an "accuracy" one. If I'm paying to have a dragon knitting a kimono while listening to his ipod and smoking a cigar on the fretboard of my guitar, then I'm not doing it because I want a cool design, I'm doing it for the artistry. CNC for something like this is cheating, I think - it's like using a photocopier and then framing it and hanging it in an art gallery. I don't get it. 

for simple dots or trapezoids or sharkfins or something, whatever. But if I'm after an "artistic" inlay, then I expect it to be art, and for me that means human, not a machine. It's all about the soul of the artist expressed across the fretboard, and not how tight the tolerances can be. 

Everything else, I agree - if it makes the guitar more functional, then so much the better. It's just, inlays aren't, past the point of simply locating ones' self on the fretboard, about function.


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## Scott

I never complained that since C. Woods had a CNC machine, that my guitar should have been completed by now. Im complaining that while other guitars are being cut, he should be assembling my guitar and packing it up. 

My guitar is far past the CNC phase. There's no reason why I shouldn't have it by now.


And what the hell is with this small-assed Quick Reply box


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## HighGain510

Drew said:


> This is the one place where I'd draw the line. For me, elaborate inlays are more of an "art" thing than an "accuracy" one. If I'm paying to have a dragon knitting a kimono while listening to his ipod and smoking a cigar on the fretboard of my guitar, then I'm not doing it because I want a cool design, I'm doing it for the artistry. CNC for something like this is cheating, I think - it's like using a photocopier and then framing it and hanging it in an art gallery. I don't get it.
> 
> for simple dots or trapezoids or sharkfins or something, whatever. But if I'm after an "artistic" inlay, then I expect it to be art, and for me that means human, not a machine. It's all about the soul of the artist expressed across the fretboard, and not how tight the tolerances can be.
> 
> Everything else, I agree - if it makes the guitar more functional, then so much the better. It's just, inlays aren't, past the point of simply locating ones' self on the fretboard, about function.




I'm going to disagree with you there Drew.  Inlay looks WAY better when it has little to no filler. If someone is paying $2-500 for a crazy inlay job, well I don't know about you but for me I want it to look absolutely perfect. No filler, no gaps. I have seen very few guys do inlay as well as Ron and Pops do, regardless of the fact that they use CNC. They only use it for the ROUTING part. All the pieces are cut by hand so THEY have to fit perfectly as well. I've seen Pops do it with my own two eyes and that is NOT something you can do without a great deal of skill. To belittle it to "photocopying" is a bit insulting IMHO, if you've never tried it or seen it done I suggest you check out what it takes to do a job that tight. Look at the "Eagle" fretboard inlays Ron did on one of the guitars. That one took 2-3 years in the build process because the inlay was so labor-intensive. You have to understand that the details going into the inlay goes down as far as the INDIVIDUAL feather. The art comes in where they can make all those hundreds of pieces fit seemlessly and finding perfectly color/figured pieces of inlay for each part. I don't do it for a living so I'm not insulted personally, but having seen how much work goes into that process even with the help of CNC makes me wonder why you would post something like that.  Here's some of what I'm talking about:




















Also, keep in mind (and ask Dave or Misha about this as they have seen it in person) stuff like my neck heel signature is all done by hand, no CNC involved.  All I'm saying is that you're making it out to be way simpler than it truly is.  There is a TON of artistic value in the inlay that Ron and other CNC users produce IMHO.


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## Drew

We can agree to disagree.  For me, for something that I consier art, it's as much the act of creation as it is the finished product. I don't consider computer programming an "art" the same way hand inlaying is. 

 For me, I guess it's the little imperfections that add value to it, that make it human. Then again, I'm not the sort of guy who'd want an eagle on his fretboard either. 

The photocopier bit was an analogy, by the way, not a personal dig at your favorite luthier.


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## HighGain510

Word up.


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## Drew

It's not that I'd never buy a guitar with a CNC-cut inlay - it's just that, if I was paying for a premium inlay anyway, I'd also be willing to pay a premium to have it done by hand. 

Then again, my taste in guitars is pretty utilitarian, function before form. My #1 criteria for an inlay is that it should allow me to know where I am on the fretboard, at a glance, without having to think, if somehow I get lost.  I never really look at the front anyway, just the side dots - the CST taught me that - but still it's a security blanket thing.

But for all the functional aspects of building a guitar, then absolutely - a CNC machine is the way to go, in the hands of a competent luthier.


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## skinhead

HighGain510 said:


> Ron wrote up the post on the Gear Page, he doesn't post anything on Project Guitar Frank!



A quoted that and put it on the CNC vs handmade thread.

Cnc vs. Handmade - Project Guitar Forum

I deem your answer false


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## HighGain510

skinhead said:


> A quoted that and put it on the CNC vs handmade thread.
> 
> Cnc vs. Handmade - Project Guitar Forum
> 
> I deem your answer false



Ah, see but BILL posted that. He's not RON THORN... Bill just linked to the post Ron made. Ron didn't post it over there Frankie!  I  at you and deem you ultimately false!


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## skinhead

HighGain510 said:


> Ah, see but BILL posted that. He's not RON THORN... Bill just linked to the post Ron made. Ron didn't post it over there Frankie!  I  at you and deem you ultimately false!



I don't feel like fighting, I need some  Can you administer some?

Yeah, but IIRC I didn't say that Ron posted on PG, I said that I read it over there. Just in case


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## HighGain510

skinhead said:


> I don't feel like fighting, I need some  Can you administer some?
> 
> Yeah, but IIRC I didn't say that Ron posted on PG, I said that I read it over there. Just in case



I still  you!  Now, don't you have to get back to stalking Drew?


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## ohio_eric

Hey Frank and Matt get a room. 

Anyway I totally agree with Thorn. CNC gives consistency and accuracy with are paramount if you want to be successful as a luthier.


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## cadenhead

In a former life, I used to program CNC machines for a custom cabinet shop.

It seems like some people think that it is a lot easier to do than it really is. Depending on the CNC and/or the program used, it can be a long process for complicated things like guitars and necks.

Thankfully there are programs to generate the CNC code. When I was first introduced to CNC's, I learned how to do very simple things using only raw code. Needless to say, it took weeks to get it to carve my name in a scrap pice of material.

Awesome post BTW.


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## Naren

Sweet post. 



Drew said:


> We can agree to disagree.  For me, for something that I consier art, it's as much the act of creation as it is the finished product. I don't consider computer programming an "art" the same way hand inlaying is.
> 
> For me, I guess it's the little imperfections that add value to it, that make it human. Then again, I'm not the sort of guy who'd want an eagle on his fretboard either.
> 
> The photocopier bit was an analogy, by the way, not a personal dig at your favorite luthier.



I do consider computer programming an "art" the same way hand inlaying is and the same way novel or poem writing is.

So I guess we can agree to disagree.

Having seen the high quality of the Thorn inlays, I doubt anyone could do it that accurately without using a CNC. And I fail to see how using a CNC makes it "not handmade."


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## budda

great post matt, thanks


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## Variant

Drew said:


> We can agree to disagree.  For me, for something that I consier art, it's as much the act of creation as it is the finished product. I don't consider computer programming an "art" the same way hand inlaying is. :



 You've obviously never spent 80 hours with a 3D modeling software meticulously honing a design. Sure, it ain't a Dremel tool, but a Dremel ain't a carving knife, and a carving knife ain't a paint brush, and a pant brush ain't a piece of charcoal. Eventually, that mentality reduces cave scrawlings made with rock as the only "appreciable" art. Sure, the digital medium can be misused and result in godawful products, but that's true of *any* medium. In my humble opinion as a designer, good ideas start in the *head* and end with good resultant *product*, what goes on in between is merely the vehicle between those two states of being.


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## dpm

^ absofuckinglutely, very well said


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## skinhead

It's a dilema IMO the inlaying.

I consider both guys inlay artist, the one that make it by hand and the one that make it with a CNC. 

Because one it's an artist cutting the stuff, leveling, etc. And the other one has the balls to sit down hours to programme all the shit to cut the pieces for the inlay.


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## El Caco

Great post Matt.

I agree that it is still art, the CNC is just a tool.

I also think graphic design, graphic manipulation and CG is art. All of these use computers as their main tool in their art and art galleries obviously agree when they have displays for each of these artforms.

If pictures created completely from code are considered art surely inlays that only use the CNC for a small portion of the process and then require meticulous work by hand to complete can also be considered art.


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## Stealthdjentstic

BUMP for the newbies complaining about why they cant have a full blown custom from X luthier for under 2k 

Thanks again matt


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## Valennic

Stealthdjentstic said:


> BUMP for the newbies complaining about why they cant have a full blown custom from X luthier for under 2k
> 
> Thanks again matt



Only acceptable necro I think I've ever seen. Too many threads popping up on that lately


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## HighGain510

Stealthdjentstic said:


> BUMP for the newbies complaining about why they cant have a full blown custom from X luthier for under 2k
> 
> Thanks again matt



No problem, Ron is one of the guys in the industry who REALLY knows his stuff (engineering and CNC background + long-time guitar builder), so typically when he tells me something regarding build process I take his word for it. When he's able to drop a nugget of wisdom like this, I felt it was worth sharing with the community. 

P.S. Mods - Might consider making it a sticky as it IS a question/issue that comes up often, would be nice not to have to bump it back to life to explain to folks!


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## TemjinStrife

This needs to be stickied alongside Darren's "Why Guitars Cost What They Do."


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## MaxOfMetal

HighGain510 said:


> No problem, Ron is one of the guys in the industry who REALLY knows his stuff (engineering and CNC background + long-time guitar builder), so typically when he tells me something regarding build process I take his word for it. When he's able to drop a nugget of wisdom like this, I felt it was worth sharing with the community.
> 
> P.S. Mods - Might consider making it a sticky as it IS a question/issue that comes up often, would be nice not to have to bump it back to life to explain to folks!



Done.



TemjinStrife said:


> This needs to be stickied alongside Darren's "Why Guitars Cost What They Do."



And done.


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## Stealthdjentstic

Yay


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## anthonyferguson

HighGain510 said:


> Ron said he would take using CNC over "totally handbuilt" (which is a term that makes me laugh a bit, because if you're using machines like bandsaws it's STILL a machine ) guitars any day, so keep in mind that even though it's a time-saver once you get it down, there are still a TON of things that require a lot of hands on attention after the CNC part is completed.



Just my 2 cents on that comment, putting a piece of wood through a machine is still a process that's done "by hand" as you're steering the workpiece. An accident on the craftsman's part results in a problem. So really, imo, it makes no difference if it's a bandsaw or a chisel, the same principal applies, despite there being a motor behind one of them.


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## HighGain510

anthonyferguson said:


> Just my 2 cents on that comment, putting a piece of wood through a machine is still a process that's done "by hand" as you're steering the workpiece. An accident on the craftsman's part results in a problem. So really, imo, it makes no difference if it's a bandsaw or a chisel, the same principal applies, despite there being a motor behind one of them.



If your machine is calibrated and maintained properly, you're taking the human error out of the equation. That's the difference. The operations being performed on the CNC are PRECISE, you're not doing the work outside of programming. What you're arguing is missing the point entirely.


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## Sepultorture

50-100 more years from now, androids will be making our guitars and i can have a completely custom shop guitar made in 3-4 days

course i'll be old as fuck or dead by then so i don't care LOL


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## Stealthdjentstic

I-tar and guitandriods


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## Metal_Webb

My ...

A CNC is a tool in the luthier's kit for them to make a guitar. For a large chunk of a build, it's the best tool to make a pile of accurate, precise, repeatable cuts routes and shaping. We aren't cavemen. We have CNC and computers to help us with the construction of stuff. It's the best tool for the job and I'd never complain about someone using one.


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## scherzo1928

It's like paying more for a surgeon to only use a scalpel instead of all the high tech equipment they have today. Wonky analogy I know.

Personally, it's the time that I spend sawing and sanding by hand that makes it worth it... but that's only because I build guitars for myself. Since I don't have a bloody bandsaw I can spend an entire week hand cutting (almoast non-stop) neck laminates. Or a day cutting a guitar's shape with a tiny coping saw. When you put so much work, sweat and a drop of blood now and then into a guitar (or anything really) you almoast become bound to that instrument.

BUT, If I was paying someone else to make me a guitar I wouldn't give a rat's ass of what tools he used if the final product was good. In the same way, if I ever started building for anyone else, I would NOT hesitate to have a CNC to help me out.

Keep in mind this is comming from someone studying to become a mechanical engineer (oh so close) and CNCs should be my first choice... but when you are dealing with numbers and equations all day long, doing a bunch of handwork is almoast therapeutic.


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## themike

Wow, thanks for bumping this. I never got to read this article and it's great. I can't explain how many arguments I've had to walk away from with people telling me that all my PRS are shit because they aren't "pre-factory" hype. I've seen first hand the CNC's at PRS (Im assuming they are extremely similar at Rons and other luthier shops) and it just make sense. The CNC code is modeled after a hand carved body, so you literally are getting an *exacttttttt* recreating of a handcarved body. The dramatic reduction in errors and wood waste, as well as time saved only add to the value you are getting. I mean honestly, how much do you think Ron would charged for a gutiar that has 80 hours of work on it? And that's just work time - we're not factoing in the cost of the raw materials and electronics.

Again awesome post man.


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## elq

Here's a link that demonstrates how much work is still needed despite Ron using CNC machines. Hopefully it'll help counter ignorant bullshit.

#030 Construction


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## HighGain510

elq said:


> Here's a link that demonstrates how much work is still needed despite Ron using CNC machines. Hopefully it'll help counter ignorant bullshit.
> 
> #030 Construction



Whoa nice catch Eric, I had totally forgotten Ron had put that together, been a long time since #30 came out!


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## Necris

I think some people who aren't familiar with CNC machines just assume that they are magical printers that spit out completely finished guitars.


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## anthonyferguson

HighGain510 said:


> If your machine is calibrated and maintained properly, you're taking the human error out of the equation. That's the difference. The operations being performed on the CNC are PRECISE, you're not doing the work outside of programming. What you're arguing is missing the point entirely.



The original point I was picking up on wasn't really on topic in any case, sorry if I took it OT. I wasn't talking about CNC machinery. Apologies for the confusion. What I meant was even if a router/bandsaw/jigsaw was set up perfectly, a human error still results in a balls-up, thus remaining (imo) a hand-building process.

Anyway, very good article. Great read for those who don't really understand the basic deal when it comes down to CNC processes.


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## Partridge Guitars

I'd like to input as a totally by custom builder.
I worked for a known acoustic guitar brand when we did everything by hand as in CNC was just new! And we did not use it but I know now the factory is huge in CNC for production.
I then worked as a cabinet maker for 10 years in my own furniture manufacturing business competing with automated shops and I was literrally using hammers for the first few years!

One thing I learned is this and in no way am I against CNC OR Laser.
I can produce a custom guitar which has a carved top etc etc et in 2 days (less drying time for glues and finishes) ...with basic tools. This is if I use jigs (which can take a few days to make as like everything you have to do it right!)
And I can happily say that with GOOD jigs accuracy is not far off CNC. But this is working my butt off and running to a strict process line mentality. (just like a machine) But I don't like working like this I will usually take a week to do a single instrument as I do believe there are things like neck profiles, carved tops that shine when done to the individual customers wants and needs...

As an example I know I could beat a cnc doing a neck (not a fret board) profile. If you take into account that is a customer wanted a v shape at till the 5th fret then to a c then a d, I can profile that pretty quick where as a cnc will need to be programmed etc then set to run, then off it comes to be sanded etc. Vs me mark it up with a ruler and some jigs in hand and go for it and if the customer wants a bit taken off here or there I and do it in 10 minutes something a cnc doesn't have the ability to change for the individual mid build.

BUT this is after 15 odd years of working in my trade and loving what I do.
When i ran my furniture business I was doing everything by hand and had to compete with Chinese imports so I had to learn to speed up and get the quality up too as at that time the imports where all CNC cut and sold dirt cheap. I'VE COME BACK TO GUITARS BECAUSE I want to do what I love to do which is play guitar and my skills are with wood.

My OPINION is this.

you pay more for hand custom work (if it's good) because your paying for not lesser quality but those individual specs that are not cookie cutter.

Also your paying for skill sets that have taken years and years of practice to do well. to me if you can play a guitar and .0005" makes a difference good for you.


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## JTBennett

This guy's numbers for his hand-built times are really high...he's either slow as hell or exaggerating.


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## Grindspine

eaeolian said:


> I always find the "it's gotta be totally handmade" argument crap. Ever try and intonate a pre-CINC guitar? It's a friggin' nightmare, in most cases.
> 
> Truth be told, the overall quality of guitars is much higher now than it's ever been, and extremely accurate machines play an important role in that success.



I donno.. aren't entirely hand made cars superior to something on an assembly line? /sarcasm


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## JTBennett

Of course, how stupid of me to forget that time = quality.


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## electriceye

This was very informative and to hear from a high-end builder like that. Puts a lot into perspective. Still, even with all the utomation, there are a TON of hours needed to build a high quality axe. Maybe a small CNC is in the mix for me a few yrs from now...


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## MikeNeal

i plan on using my cnc machine to do tasks where accuracy is of the utmost importance.

i will be using it to carve the outside shape, the neck pocket, pickup cavities, bridge mounting holes, neck mounting holes, control cavity, truss rod slot, fret slots, and fretboard radius.

neck carve and any body carve will still be done by hand. that way you get the handmade feeling, with cnc accuracy


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## Randy

It's a balance of utility and taste.
The CNC is a tool just like any other tool in the shop; it does a lot of things but it doesn't do everything itself.

I haven't integrated CNC yet, but even still, its based on the same drafts I use for making my templates. If you're careful in how you build your initial templates, the finished product is just as precise as off the CNC machine.

The only reason I'm pursuing integrating CNC into my setup is to cut down on the amount of time and MDF I use templating (typically 6 to 10 templates for one model), which ultimately saves money in the long term. I also burn through manufactured templates for things that need to be precise (ie: pickup routes, bridge routes) that aren't cheap and take weeks to arrive, or several hours and resources to make from scratch.

For me at this point, CNC is the next practical tool to streamline the workflow in the shop. It also doesn't hurt that I've been drafting guitar parts for ~10 years just for the sake of mockups and printed templates, and they transfer over to 3D fairly easy.

I've posted some bits and pieces of my work in this subforum before, though usually not much in depth. When I get back into the shop for a longer haul and get some time to cleanup, I should get some pics.

I'm glad to see some CNC use popping up on here because it definitely presents some alternatives for how you build/design and what goes into building your shop but it's still just "one way" of doing things, and it might not be a bad idea to post some of my "traditional building" methods as a reminder they're out there.

I've amassed a pretty decent shop over the years and I'm always buying stuff but the "traditional methods" I've used till now, you could probably pull off with a jig saw, a benchtop drill press and bits, and a router+basic bits. If you commit the time to templating your stuff carefully, it's not at all unusual to be able to go from blank to an unfinished body at or above the condition it comes out of the CNC machine in just a couple hours.


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## Lemonbaby

JTBennett said:


> This guy's numbers for his hand-built times are really high...he's either slow as hell or exaggerating.


Thought the same, but that's mostly because he doesn't seem to be a pro in the paintshop. If the guy that paints my guitars needed 30 hours of working time for one finish, he'd have to charge me something between 1000 and 2000 bucks...


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## diagrammatiks

Lemonbaby said:


> Thought the same, but that's mostly because he doesn't seem to be a pro in the paintshop. If the guy that paints my guitars needed 30 hours of working time for one finish, he'd have to charge me something between 1000 and 2000 bucks...



ron thorn is one of the best and most meticulous guitar finishers in the business tho.


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## Lemonbaby

diagrammatiks said:


> ron thorn is one of the best and most meticulous guitar finishers in the business tho.


1. Might or might not be the case - I never heard of the guy.
2. Doesn't mean he's a trained painter. He'd be bankrupt if he needed to live of painting things if he takes 30 hours of working time for one guitar.


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## JTBennett

diagrammatiks said:


> ron thorn is one of the best and most meticulous guitar finishers in the business tho.



So if I wanted a guitar with 5 coats of nitrocellulose that has a 4hr drying time, would he take 80 hours?


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## diagrammatiks

JTBennett said:


> So if I wanted a guitar with 5 coats of nitrocellulose that has a 4hr drying time, would he take 80 hours?



I dunno. ask him? Is my screen name IamRonThorn


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## Randy

JTBennett said:


> So if I wanted a guitar with 5 coats of nitrocellulose that has a 4hr drying time, would he take 80 hours?



Considering final sanding the wood, prep-work, painting, wet sanding between coats, final wet sanding and polishing... 80 hours is maybe a stretch but I could see 20 - 40 hours going into a quality paintjob, absolutely.


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## MaxOfMetal

Lemonbaby said:


> 1. Might or might not be the case - I never heard of the guy.
> 2. Doesn't mean he's a trained painter. He'd be bankrupt if he needed to live of painting things if he takes 30 hours of working time for one guitar.



Ron Thorn has stayed pretty far under the radar considering how much work he's done for the big boys, Fender, Jackson, Ibanez, etc. 

More recently he did the swirls for the Universe PAW Anniversary guitars. 

He can paint.


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