# Mother of all Legato Problems



## SirMyghin (Aug 23, 2012)

Alright folks, here is an odd one by yours truly.

On a bass I can play legato at any level, without volume loss, and seemlessly match what the right hand volume would have been, regardless of dynamic. Watch harder legato to match aggressive picking and there it is.

Then I pick up a freaking guitar and always lose a bit of volume on legato, even after meticulously adjusting pickups to be about as close as they can without being detrimental. This volume difference is pretty much non-existant at high gain, but I do most of my playing at lower gain . It isn't a finger strength issue, as mentioned, I play legato on a bass no issues. It seems like even if I really pound the strings (for experimental purpose, disposing with finesse and trying brute force) they are just never as loud as picked on a guitar. 

Anyone ever had this problem, or can provide any insight?


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## Winspear (Aug 23, 2012)

It's simply a lot harder on thinner strings I guess. Gets harder from bass guitar, to the low strings of the guitar, to the high strings of the guitar. I can't legato on the high strings for shit!


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## SirMyghin (Aug 23, 2012)

So what you are telling me is string with 13's instead of 10's  I just love that on bass I can take a right hand break to scratch my ass and if no one is watching get away with it.


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## Winspear (Aug 23, 2012)

Pretty much  I'm trying to deal with it because the tension I like is the tension I like, but heavier would help for sure.
Not looking forward to seeing how much I suck on the high A of my new guitar 

Pick up a Fender Jaguar


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## SirMyghin (Aug 23, 2012)

Thats what I mean, I like the tension of 10s, so I play them. 

I guess the answer is a whole lot more practice which may not pay off..... or use my compressor 

Yeah the unwound strings are the worst for it though, for sure.


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## Winspear (Aug 23, 2012)

Indeed. I'm hoping practice pays off. I still find it an issue on fairly high gain haha. A shortscale guitar might be a long term help if that's an option.


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## SirMyghin (Aug 23, 2012)

See I was hoping this was just some odd quirk as I am a bassist, not something guitarists can have trouble with.


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## Winspear (Aug 23, 2012)

It's definitely harder on the thinner strings - what I'd like to know is if the really good legato players have overcome it or whether they just use heavy gauges/compressors. I.e. is it worth practicing


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## Ryan-ZenGtr- (Aug 23, 2012)

I always found muting to be a problem when I was working on my legato. I went through a big Richie Kotzen phase which I enjoyed, but it was frustrating for about 3 years. 

The most important thing is how you hold the guitar. Have a think about how to improve the economy of motion next time you first pick up a guitar. Maybe you need to modify some old habits, such as wrist angle, strap height or thumb positioning to get parallel with the fingerboard.

There's always going to be volume loss with legato, high gain sounds flatter the inconsistencies, as do reverb and delay. Using the neck pickup can help, too, as it is often louder than bridge pickup. I adjust all my guitars to have the loudest neck position possible for this purpose (pickup dedicated for soloing and cleans).

Otherwise, there's nothing else to it. No special things. It works the same on piano (triads or scale fragments FTW), banjo, bongoes, same technique. 

Best tip is get hold of some sports video game from the 80's/90's where you have to button bash and break all the world records. Ultimate finger training excercise! ... Don't tell the noobs, though.

*Mandatory Legato Excercises*

_For fretting hand_

A bit more retro than intended (best with Mute enabled!)





_For picking hand hand_



I $%$%&£%££$ * <3 legato, nothing is better for melting minds, possibly tapped string skipped arpeggios, but scalar always wins for me!

My Solo @ 4:40 
http://soundcloud.com/ryan-zengtr/benign-dictatorship-bd-8-early


Waaaaaaaaaa... insane notes at light speeeeeeeeeeeeeddddddddd!

 <<< Super lugata tapping insanity! 



*insert strongest form of affection for said technique HERE.


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## Konfyouzd (Aug 23, 2012)

My legato technique on guitar is slightly different from my bass legato technique. I try to orient my phrases in such a way that I can kinda "roll" from note to note by rotating my wrist if that makes any sense... I feel like the rotation *might* be adding a bit more pressure, but it could just be all in my head. Either way, the peace of mind it brings seems to be effective in levelling out the volume.

Another thing, though is that I seem to move in and out of "true legato" and "heavy metal legato" as that one dude in all the legato video calls them. I may be subconsciously doing pull offs periodically where I feel I may be about to lose volume. I'd have to watch my hands more closely to tell you for sure, though.

For muting, I've found that anchoring your wrist can be really useful when playing legato.


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## Ryan-ZenGtr- (Aug 23, 2012)

*Mandatory considerations for Legato*
String guage = No
Scale length = No
Compressor = No

What are you guys trying to do with legato? 3 note per string scales or similar common legato passages, as well as itch coverage don't require anything extra.

When I had long hair it was handy for undoing knots when hair would catch in the strings (painful and all to common  ). 
Also good for all manner of things, such as adjusting amps and pushing people off stages while dressed as M. Bison. 

It's my favourite technique, so maybe specific applications could help with troubleshooting.

Maybe this video will help...


@Konfyouzed

You don't need to do anything with either wrist or mute the strings with the right hand. The first finger of the fretting hands provides the muting. You just lock down the fretting wrist, with fingers perfectly parallel and flat on the board and play.

Took me years to master it (muting). Well worth it though. 

The muting with the picking hand on the fretboard _a la_ Satriani is good for practicing, and audience like that kind of stuff sometimes. Hairbands can also help, but none of that stuff is necessary once you have it down. Knowing your scales is the most important thing, really. 4 note per string pentatonics are demented!



No tricks, only hard work!

This one works!!!


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## Maniacal (Aug 23, 2012)

Harder on thinner strings? How? 

It is certainly harder on higher frets but not on thinner strings. 

I just put 10s on my carvin and its a workout just trying to get pull offs to sound good.


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## Grimbold (Aug 24, 2012)

practice?
and the practice some more?

i think one of the iGuitar magazines (issue 5 i believe) has an interesting tom quayle lesson on legato


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## Konfyouzd (Aug 24, 2012)

@Ryan - I'm well aware of how to mute with both hands... I do what feels best.


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## SirMyghin (Aug 24, 2012)

Ryan, you seem to claim it is no harder depending on scale length, or string gauge so I need to ask you, what makes legato on the longer scale, bigger stringed bass easier then. So here is what I have been thinking

It is there, and you get a lot more power out of it, but you seem to want to dismiss that. My best guess is momentum. Bigger strings allow for greater momentum to be generated. Momentum is the product of mass and velocity, so if you can move a string 1.5 times heavier at 80% the speed, you are still generating and imparting more energy to the string. For arguments sake, the speed which you finger the note doesn't really change, all that changes is the mass of the string.

As far as higher notes being more difficult, this is probably again an issue with imparting energy through momentum. The longer bit of the string, which will dissipate more energy, is not the side that is sounding.

So my so compare a 0.009 and a 0.045, paired with the much heavier cores on bass strings and I am sure you are getting in league of 7-8x the momentum. The longer string length plays against you, but you are only having about 1.4x the string length.

I was looking for ways to minimize this discrepancy in some folks experience, but I don't feel you actually touched on that issue in the least.


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## Konfyouzd (Aug 24, 2012)

To play devil's advocate... I have a harder time playing legato on bass than guitar. Part of me thinks that it might just be familiarity. You are a bass player turned guitar player and legato is easier on bass than guitar. I played guitar for 12 years before picking up the bass and the technique seems to come much easier for me on guitar than bass. I've never really noticed a difference with string gauge, but it does get ever so slightly more difficult to get the notes out in higher ranges, but I can still do it with minimal [extra] effort.


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## Lagtastic (Aug 24, 2012)

Maybe it's a soft touch thing. I use a super light touch for my fretting hand when I play legato. Also I find that bigger frets make legato easier.


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## Ryan-ZenGtr- (Aug 24, 2012)

*@SirMyghin*

I have a 6 string Warwick bass, the extra range gives a bit more space for flourishes like legato and makes it a more acceptable embellishment so I use legato from time to time, just as I do with guitar, and people don't throw things too often.
Perhaps playing a pretentious instrument forewarns audiences that some different sounds will be coming from it, who knows?

(Remember a while back, we were discussing bass "modesty" and other bass things?)

It feels the same on the bass to me as on guitar. If anything, being used to applying the extra pressure on bass strings might be a problem as a guitar's light strings with smaller frets would perhaps cause more accidental vibrato or pitch inconsistencies.

It's not a problem to have affected me so I don't have much to offer but *guesses*, although I'd sincerely like to help, hence all the effort in this thread.

My experience was just do it (legato) long enough and eventually it's easy. Not very helpful, I know. 

Questions
Large hands?
Very powerful grip?
Low strap?
Specific application?

The fingers have to be flat across the board, with the thumb very low on the back of the neck perpendicular to the first finger. The first finger provides the muting.
If your using your picking hand for additional muting it should move to cover strings not muted by the fretting hand's first finger, in a mirror image.
There is no need to grip hard, as it will slow the transitions to the next scale position and decrease the hands ability to spread. It can also cause pain.
Most of the volume comes from the pull-off aspect, so descending scales is a common sound. 

The most pain I get when playing is from holding down chords for a long time when playing acoustic, folk or country music, not shredding.

Just for clarification, I'm talking mostly about 3 note per string scalar improvisations as the content to be performed legato, perhaps we're at cross purposes.

1:11 first example, plenty more to come in this performance.


Ensuring the instrument is well maintained and intonated makes all the difference at the dusty end.

*@Konfyouzed*

Yeah, I can understand your 1 line response. I'm often accused of being a patronising A***, in real life and sometimes here. But seriously, would I go to the effort of taking the time detailing information that might be of benefit to someone just to hurt people's feelings?


Maybe I get it wrong from time to time and tell people stuff they already know, but there are lot's of lurkers on here so perhaps it will benefit them.

It was the contradiction in your post that made me write some advice for you. You recommended first "rolling the wrist" for additional power, then "Anchoring the wrist" to improve muting. 

It's tough to tell what your were endorsing to others as you didn't really mention which hand was supposed to do each thing or other specifics.


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## ChronicConsumer (Aug 24, 2012)

Another thing I think you could just try is to practice unplugged. It's what I do, and so far, if I'm able to play a legato passage loud enough for me to actually hear every note clearly with my amp turned off, it sounds perfect with my amp on. 
I use a Carvin CT6 (a 25") set up in E standard with 10-46 Ernie Ball Cobalts (really digging them!).


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## Trespass (Aug 24, 2012)

Jazz guys will increase the gauge of just the E and B string to level out the volume difference. Pat Martino will do a 12 gauge set with substituted .015 and .019 for the E and B. Check out his signature GHS set.

I'm this is a possible solution (and what I'm interested in).

Ask Josh Martin (of Little Tybee) what he's doing to tap all those hammer on from nowhere legato runs.


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## troyguitar (Aug 24, 2012)

The problem with putting huge ass strings on is you kill your ability to bend, I just deal with legato being quiet


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## SirMyghin (Aug 24, 2012)

*@Ryan*

I think we may indeed be at a bit of a cross purpose. The plan is not so much blistering runs, or an overall inability, just not liking the volume difference that seems to be the issue with clean guitar playing and legato (compared to if I wanted to pick more aggressively, with my piece of stone ) The alternative is of course, pick lighter, which I can do quite well, but does not always fit the need at the time.

*@Trespass
*
That sounds like an intriguing string set.

*@Troy

*Bass strings are bendable 

@ *Chrono

*I do this a lot, and you can hear it. I am beginning to think that my pick may be the a slight factor in volume differences. A piece of stone gets a rather ridiculous range in how hard or soft you can pick.


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## Trespass (Aug 24, 2012)

troyguitar said:


> The problem with putting huge ass strings on is you kill your ability to bend, I just deal with legato being quiet



That's all perspective. I have 0.013s on my archtop, and I can bend just fine. 

Your technique certainly has to change.


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## Winspear (Aug 25, 2012)

Yeah I'm no scientist but it really makes sense to me thinking about momentum/surface area etc. I thought it was just a fact that it is harder on the thinner strings - I've read it at least twice elsewhere before.


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## troyguitar (Aug 25, 2012)

Trespass said:


> That's all perspective. I have 0.013s on my archtop, and I can bend just fine.
> 
> Your technique certainly has to change.



WTB vids of you bending .013 tuned to E up at least a minor third, or even better that Pat Martino .015 example. That's over 50 lbs of tension for the .015 and almost 40 lbs for the .013 - You can do that?


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## kung_fu (Aug 25, 2012)

I know Holdsworth prefers a pretty light set, and we all know he's got his legato down. I think lighter strings would be easier to get a more uniform sound (pick attack to match the hammered notes) but you would need a light initial attack with the pick or initial hammered note (for "hemmer-ons from nowhere"). A heavier set probably lends itself to a better volume and tone though you would need to practice getting the evenness going on by really strongly hammering down. I don't really do too much left-hand "pure"legato myself,but usually just go with a very light/quiet picking hand,sort of like Gambale who often sounds smooth/legato despite picking pretty much everything.


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## SirMyghin (Aug 25, 2012)

troyguitar said:


> WTB vids of you bending .013 tuned to E up at least a minor third, or even better that Pat Martino .015 example. That's over 50 lbs of tension for the .015 and almost 40 lbs for the .013 - You can do that?



a 13 plain string is less than 30 lbs... a 15 closer to 35... Tension is a linear function of area (assuming density of material remains constant). If I can bend major seconds on the bass (which pretty much needs too much fret board due to the long scale and flexibility) there is no reason why a minor 3rd on a 13 would be that difficult. Just because you can't pull it off doesn't make it mystical. Anything more than a minor 2nd bend on a bass though just requires too much displacement, imo, probably a big reason bends are not as popular on basses.


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## kung_fu (Aug 25, 2012)

Bass legato probably works better, as those thick bass strings and long scale lengths provide a longer sustain than you'd experience on guitar. Just the nature of the beast i guess ??  Not to mention (if you play with your fingers) that there isn't much initial attack noise on the bass and most notes you play tend to have the same roundness to them, plucked or not. The contrast is just much more evident on guitar...


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## Winspear (Aug 25, 2012)

troyguitar said:


> That's over 50 lbs of tension for the .015 and almost 40 lbs for the .013



Definitely wrong


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## troyguitar (Aug 25, 2012)

EtherealEntity said:


> Definitely wrong



25.5" scale .015 tuned up to G to simulate bending up a minor third from E = 51.82 lbs

.013 = 38.93 lbs


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## Winspear (Aug 25, 2012)

Alright - read ya wrong. Thought you meant the tension of the open string itself. I'm not familiar with thinking what tension I can bend _to_ - just from. It's pretty tight yeah but perfectly believable strength wise. I think the string would snap, though. I wouldn't want to do it on much more than 24lbs but I think a 13 E is only 28 or so.


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## SirMyghin (Aug 25, 2012)

troyguitar said:


> 25.5" scale .015 tuned up to G to simulate bending up a minor third from E = 51.82 lbs
> 
> .013 = 38.93 lbs



It isn't as simple as you are trying to make it. That is what the tension ALONG the string will be. You aren't pushing along the string to bend it, you are pushing perpendicular. 

So if I take a 27 lb 13 at E and want to bend to G at 38 lbs I only need to apply about 27 lbs perpendicular (think of the direction of action originally and final, and then use the triangle to get a close idea of what the forces would need to be, this will not be exact but it is much closer than your estimate). Same goes for the the 0.015. An interesting thing to note though, is it looks like bending up a minor third requires you to push the same tension the string had originally against it. A neat relationship really.

Your largest mistake is assuming you need to ADD all the tension (or fight all the tension) required, as opposed to adding that much more tension. Adding this tension is just some simple trig / vector algebra.


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## troyguitar (Aug 25, 2012)

That's still a shit ton of force, and I'm not sure a string will even hold it if your hand is capable of doing the bend... I guess I could tune up my B string and bend the hell out of it to test, but I don't have any single spares to replace it if it breaks 

Yes your hand does not need to push 40-50 lbs, but the string does need to hold it.


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## SirMyghin (Aug 25, 2012)

There is no reason it wouldn't hold the load. A smaller string can handle the exact same changes in tension (relative to its area) and they are all made of the same steel. These are all linear relationships. A bigger string does not have lower strength, just larger area and mass, requiring larger tension. A 9 is 1/2 the area of a 13 (actually ever so slightly less than half). It requires 18 lbs to be bent to G. A 13 requires ~ 36. The 36 has double the area though, so both strings have the exact same STRESS. Stress is what is important when dealing with strength of materials.


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## Ryan-ZenGtr- (Sep 8, 2012)

@Myghin

Problem = loss of volume when performing legato

Hardware Solution = Compressor

Technique Solution = Apply technique during dynamically compatible sections



Can't see why anyone wouldn't want to do the Satch style legato thing, though. It's great fun! 

If you use the vintage volume method of amp really loud and guitar volume pot set to taste that will help, too, as you adjust dynamics as you play, or perhaps use a volume pedal if that suits you better as it will avoid using the compressor.

If your editing in software; 
adjust the region volume
duplicate track / invert selection / delete, leaving only selected, apply aggressive compression

I'm quite pleased with my legato lecture, so thanks for the opportunity. I hope it helps someone!


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## SirMyghin (Sep 8, 2012)

^^^ 

I actually found part of the problem. Being away so often my guitar drifted out of setup, and the issue was energy loss due to pretty damned high action  I tend not to notice high action unless I look for it, as I cut my teeth on basses I could put pinky under the strings at 12... So bringing it back to 'reasonable' really helped a lot for volume.

I do like you advice though, esp the go play old video games


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## gandalf (Sep 10, 2012)

Hey there, I actually made a 5 hour program addressing this problem among others, you can check it out here if you like: http://www.nielsvejlyt.com/scienceshred.php


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