# Do you think that modern death metal is overproduced?



## will_shred (Mar 26, 2014)

So, this is an interesting topic that I was talking about with one of my friends on facebook. He's the lead guitarist in a really really killer local death metal band. He claims that a lot of modern death metal has lost it's soul because it's over produced. I think that's not true. I think it's great that recording technology has improved to the point where small bands can make really professional sounding albums. Off the top of my head, the only album that I can think of which was really over produced was Ashes of the Wake by Lamb of God. however, besides that I think it sounds great. Most bands want their sound to be clean and polished, some bands don't and it works for their music. Ya dig?


Edit: For clarity I'm well aware that Lamb of God isn't death metal. However, Ashes of the Wake was just an album that came to mind which I feel is overproduced.


----------



## TheHandOfStone (Mar 26, 2014)

At the risk of sounding boring, I think it depends on the band. Sometimes I appreciate solid production values for especially nuanced riffing, but if the songwriting is simple then I actually prefer the grittier production values.

An example of one band whose production value perfectly matches their songwriting and aesthetic is Mithras:


----------



## Vhyle (Mar 26, 2014)

To be honest - at the risk of sounding like a snob, I say yes, a lot of modern death metal is over-produced. With that said, I still enjoy and appreciate the immense talent it takes to pull it all off. But when the album is overproduced to the point to where it sounds perfectly compressed, digitized, quantized, maybe even edited to hell and back, that takes a lot of the enjoyment out of it. I love hearing the very slight imperfections in the playing on all the instruments. Maybe some double kicks that are still going at furious sixteenth-note paces but aren't dead on perfect. Maybe the occasional riff that's slightly out of sync between the guitarists.

I just love the sound of old school death metal albums. There was no serious editing, and hardly any (if at all) studio magic. Just the results of many enthusiastic practices of several dudes who love playing death metal. The sound of the dedication to the art of playing their music, and executing it as best as they can, all the while displaying the human factor. It's just more raw, energetic and lively. I suppose it's a bit hard to explain, but I think you get my drift.

EDIT: Not to mention, the old school, punishing, nasty guitar tones of early death metal. The Sunlight Studio sound, guitars scooped like mad, and furiously riffing away. Love it.


----------



## Mike (Mar 26, 2014)

I'm on the fence about the issue. To an extent I agree with your friend. I hate recordings where drum samples are all set to 127 for every hit and the guitars have been cut and pasted together for every single part that repeats. That's where I feel the soul and raw aggression really get lost. Dynamics are completely killed and it makes everything seem so monotonous. Really though, this applies to any of the thousands of sub-genres of metal. Take for example producer Joey Sturgis. I may not like the bands he produces, but there's no question he's good at what he does and has created some of the most highly polished modern metal recordings. For me, his stuff is so polished and robotic that the soul really is gone and I can't listen to half of what he's produced just because that irks me so much. 

On the other hand I can't stand to listen to recordings that were done with a potato in some dudes garage. I like to really be able to pick out everything that's going on. That way I can appreciate each layer and the passion that went into putting a piece together. For me I like recordings best that fall somewhere in the middle between natural/raw and high quality. Some bands that I think have done absolutely wonderful at that are: The Ghost Inside, Stick To Your Guns, Architects (Though I think their newest album has lost that raw/aggressive edge just a tad), Darkest Hour, and Parkway Drive (I know not Death Metal, but they illustrate my point of quality).


----------



## AdamMaz (Mar 26, 2014)

Production value at either extreme can yield phenomenal results with respect to Death Metal.

I've always seen the problem is it being over_played_. Virtuoso playing in Death Metal, in my opinion, goes contrary to what it should sound like.


----------



## RagtimeDandy (Mar 26, 2014)

If it sounds awful, the musicality is irrelevant to me. I fully understand budget constraints, but i really struggle to listen to sub-par produced albums. Took me an eternity to start digging VoM's [Id] album simply because the production. Musically it's great, but it's so poorly produced I found it hard to palette. So I'm definitely on the side of better production is prefered


----------



## fps (Mar 26, 2014)

Yes, most of the time. However I love the production of bands like Decapitated and Psycroptic, which reflects the music perfectly. Perhaps what I mean is often it's inappropriate for a band to have the kind of highly-sheened production which is now generally blanketed across metal genres. I love Portal's production, for instance.


----------



## DavidLopezJr (Mar 26, 2014)

Yup.


----------



## Vhyle (Mar 26, 2014)

AdamMaz said:


> Production value at either extreme can yield phenomenal results with respect to Death Metal.
> 
> I've always seen the problem is it being over_played_. Virtuoso playing in Death Metal, in my opinion, goes contrary to what it should sound like.



I can kinda agree to this. Some death metal songs sound just fine with the senseless onslaught of a random note solo. It's purely the heat of the moment, pure aggression ordeal. I love carefully played, tasteful, virtuoso solos as much as the next guy, but just sometimes you just need to blurt out with your guitar and wail out some random chromatic nonsense. And with some songs, it just works.


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash (Mar 26, 2014)

AdamMaz said:


> Production value at either extreme can yield phenomenal results with respect to Death Metal.
> 
> I've always seen the problem is it being over_played_. Virtuoso playing in Death Metal, in my opinion, goes contrary to what it should sound like.


This.


----------



## AdamMaz (Mar 26, 2014)

Vhyle said:


> I can kinda agree to this. Some death metal songs sound just fine with the senseless onslaught of a random note solo. It's purely the heat of the moment, pure aggression ordeal. I love carefully played, tasteful, virtuoso solos as much as the next guy, but just sometimes you just need to blurt out with your guitar and wail out some random chromatic nonsense. And with some songs, it just works.


I can 100% agree with this


----------



## The ProfEscher (Mar 26, 2014)

Vhyle said:


> EDIT: Not to mention, the old school, punishing, nasty guitar tones of early death metal. The Sunlight Studio sound, guitars scooped like mad, and furiously riffing away. Love it.


This is actually the main reason I can't stand a lot of 90's/old school death metal.


----------



## abandonist (Mar 26, 2014)

I absolutely HATE modern production.

Clinical, sterile, and terrible. No grit, violence, or sex.

Death Metal should be ugly.


----------



## Abaddon9112 (Mar 26, 2014)

Basically yeah, I think a lot of modern death metal is overproduced. At every level, from the pristine tone of modern high gain amplifiers right up to the mixing desk. Everything sounds "closer" to the listener than older death metal; uncomfortably close in my opinion. I've always preferred the production on 90s death metal records. They sound more open, organic and atmospheric. To my ears it suited the music better than what's being done production wise now. 

The band Deeds of Flesh is a good example of how production has evolved in death metal. Compare the "Path of the Weakening" album from 1999 with "Portals to Canaan" from last year. To me the first sounds way more brutal and deranged than the second. "Canaan" is more bass-heavy and in your face, which some would consider "heavier" sounding than the first. But the Path of the Weakening has atmosphere, which is what a lot of modern death metal lacks. Black metal still has atmosphere, death metal used to have it, and modern technical death metal more often than not lacks it to some degree. 

Ultimately it depends on what works well for the particular band's style, but more often than not I think death metal would benefit from a more old school approach to production.


----------



## Vhyle (Mar 26, 2014)

Abaddon9112 said:


> Basically yeah, I think a lot of modern death metal is overproduced. At every level, from the pristine tone of modern high gain amplifiers right up to the mixing desk. Everything sounds "closer" to the listener than older death metal; uncomfortably close in my opinion. I've always preferred the production on 90s death metal records. They sound more open, organic and atmospheric. To my ears it suited the music better than what's being done production wise now.
> 
> The band Deeds of Flesh is a good example of how production has evolved in death metal. Compare the "Path of the Weakening" album from 1999 with "Portals to Canaan" from last year. To me the first sounds way more brutal and deranged than the second. "Canaan" is more bass-heavy and in your face, which some would consider "heavier" sounding than the first. But the Path of the Weakening has atmosphere, which is what a lot of modern death metal lacks. Black metal still has atmosphere, death metal used to have it, and modern technical death metal more often than not lacks it to some degree.
> 
> Ultimately it depends on what works well for the particular band's style, but more often than not I think death metal would benefit from a more old school approach to production.


----------



## Necris (Mar 26, 2014)

Yes Modern "death" metal is over produced. I hardly consider it worthy of the title considering there is no aura of "death" evoked by it. From the flowery "technical" riffs to the crystal clear production it's far too tame, morbid and gory lyrics alone don't cut it.
Also Ashes of the Wake by Lamb of God isn't death metal. It never was.


----------



## stevexc (Mar 27, 2014)

Maybe it's just me, but the more clarity there is in the recording the more I prefer it. I like to be able to hear every separate piece of a track. Of course, the artist better be able to pull it off live.

I'm only against "overproduced" albums when it comes to "fixing" things after it's recorded... moving this note, adjusting this beat, etcetera.


----------



## Promit (Mar 27, 2014)

Modern music _in general_ is over-produced. That's across all genres and styles. There's been a somewhat severe homogenization of the styles and mixes. It's very eye opening to listen to music from the 60s and 70s and actually pay attention to the production. Not that it's a standard we should be striving for, but I find current production to be so very artificial.

I also suspect that AxeFX has unfortunately made it extremely easy to produce that same clinically produced guitar sound. Nobody goes above and beyond, and so you get this "AxeFX sound" that comes from the way it's set up.


----------



## TRENCHLORD (Mar 27, 2014)

I like the clarity and separation that some producers get these days, but in general, at least with metal I'd like to see them compress the total frequency range down just a bit to be more narrow.

So many of todays albums have too much ultra highs and lows IMO.

When I put in South Of Heaven or Seasons and some other older stuff I suddenly have all this control with my EQ, especially in my car stereo (which isn't super high-end, but it's real descent for factory).


----------



## mcsalty (Mar 27, 2014)

I'm pretty stoked about the amount of articulate points in this thread considering most people tend to shout "over-produced" at anything that doesn't sound like complete shit


----------



## straightshreddd (Mar 27, 2014)

This is actually a great topic. I'm also on the fence.

When I was a teenager, all the local bands had terrible recordings(even when done at studios for some reason) and only higher profile bands had good production value. This made me appreciate really pristine recordings with tight/articulate guitars, triggered drums, and great overall mixing. 

Over the past couple years, I've noticed a common trend among death metal(and its sub-genres) with a really sterile, over-produced sound on their tracks. 

My buddy is really into production and regularly chats with Sturgis, Putney, etc and he's really into those style of mixes. I mean, audibly, they can sound really great sometimes. But, I get the feeling that the production is a higher priority than the music itself. 

Also, there's soooo many layers of vocals and guitars in some bands' EP's/albums that it literally sounds like an orchestra of members and can't be replicated live, at all, without the accompaniment of a laptop. 

I love good production value, but it's getting a little ridiculous.


----------



## groverj3 (Mar 27, 2014)

Call me a rebel, but there's overproduced... lots of effects, electronic crap added where it's not needed, etc. Then there's clear production, which for some strange reason some people rebel against.

I mostly refuse to listen to music with terrible production. It hurts my ears. It's 2014 for god's sake.

This is all firmly just my opinion.


----------



## Dayn (Mar 27, 2014)

I find a lot of the time in arguments similar to this, some people rail against it because they simply don't care and don't want to put any effort in. "I _meant_ to record it in the bathroom while I was having a shit, a studio is too sterile." "I _meant_ to play everything slow, it won't have any soul if I played anything fast." "I _meant_ to wear a t-shirt five sizes too large and covered in ejaculate and Doritos, a clean shirt is too business for my rockin' ways." Et cetera. Rant complete.

Of course, there's genuine aesthetics. I can't tell what a lot of Portal does, but I like that horrific aesthetic they use.

I prefer clear production where I can hear everything, though. Deriding it as 'sterile' and 'clinical'... that atmosphere of death, in a clinical environment with medical staff of all people, sounds far scarier to me than Generic Cracked Skull #23.

I do find it highly amusing about the lack of 'soul' in *death* metal. That's an aesthetic of death in itself, and various themes easily give rise to a 'sterile' or 'clinical' sound that suits it perfectly.


----------



## Floppystrings (Mar 27, 2014)

When I hear something I don't like, I stop listening to it.

I bet you friend thinks Pink Floyd is over produced too.


----------



## Shimme (Mar 27, 2014)

Dayn said:


> I prefer clear production where I can hear everything, though. Deriding it as 'sterile' and 'clinical'... that atmosphere of death, in a clinical environment with medical staff of all people, sounds far scarier to me than Generic Cracked Skull #23.
> 
> I do find it highly amusing about the lack of 'soul' in *death* metal. That's an aesthetic of death in itself, and various themes easily give rise to a 'sterile' or 'clinical' sound that suits it perfectly.



I agree with you up to a point, but IMHO not a lot of bands are actually trying to give a cold, clinical feel to their music - they just want you to be impressed by how thick their double-bass sounds, and they all end up sounding the same because of it -check out Ola Englund fer chrissakes! He takes huge assortments of awesome, unique amps with their own charicteristics and produces them into a slushy pile of "teh brootalz."

I much prefer the organic feel of a lot of 90s death - yeah it might not be as clear, but these bands are losing a lot of the malice, hate, and evil that made them great to begin with! Try and imagine if some of the classic black metal albums had used the same level of production - they would be a completely different experience.

I'll go and leave this for comparison:

The Old School - 

[Youtubevid]watch?v=STFGLIK6Zy0[/Youtubevid]

The New School - 

[Youtubevid]watch?v=IgOMuiRSJpA&feature=kp[/Youtubevid]


----------



## Necris (Mar 27, 2014)

Shimme said:


> I much prefer the organic feel of a lot of 90s death - yeah it might not be as clear, but these bands are losing a lot of the malice, hate, and evil that made them great to begin with! *Try and imagine if some of the classic black metal albums had used the same level of production* - they would be a completely different experience.


You don't have to imagine. Gorgoroth re-recorded Under The Sign of Hell, arguably their worst sounding _good_ album, with a slick modern production, and it was a disaster.

Old:

New:
 

Utterly neutered, there is no aggression anymore.

Comparing old and new Death Metal production...:



Just because a mix may be better balanced doesn't make it better. Severed Survival and Mental Funeral, while they may not have pristine mixes, have a sound that actually fits the music. I listened to each new Autopsy album maybe twice each and then gave them away; they have no lasting replay value; there's nothing to draw you in. They evoke nothing. If you put newer autopsy in a playlist with a bunch of other modern bands I probably wouldn't even be able to tell it was them.


I will always have more respect for a band that are willing to put in the effort to find a production quality that fits their music and will tell their "fans" to f_u_ck off if they don't like it than I ever will for the band that goes for the best possible recording just because it's "expected".

Those who whine and complain constantly about production are ruining this sort of music. 
That you may actually have to give an album a few listens to get used to the production so you can properly appreciate the music rather than get your instant gratification _is not_ a bad thing.

If you want pop sound quality and instant gratification, listen to pop.


----------



## DLG (Mar 27, 2014)

the biggest problem is that overproduced death metal bands tend to have none of the atmosphere that makes death metal so great. it sounds like you're listening to a guitar pro project. 

I feel like it's possible to strike a balance. The most important thing in tech death is to be able to hear everything that is being player, because the playing is obviously the focal point. Bands can definitely do that without making the recording sound too sterile and plastic. 

Martyr - Feeding the Abscess is a good example. it's crystal clear, but still has nice atmosphere and doesn't sound like everyone is playing midi keytars. 

this album too. one of the most technical metal albums ever recorded, yet it still has an astounding amount of atmosphere.


----------



## The Reverend (Mar 27, 2014)

Were these bands going for raw recordings? Or was that all they had access to, being in an underground genre of metal in the 90s? Did they go to expensive studios, and demand the worst equipment be used? How much of what we expect from OG death metal bands in terms of sound is a conditioned response to the trove of old albums that defined the genre? 

An interesting thought experiment is this: I listen to music all day through bass-heavy headphones. When I'm in my truck, or playing music on my monitors at home, everything feels too "open" and thin. Is there something wrong with every other pair of headphones and monitors I own, or am I simply used to my main pair? 

I feel that bands these days emulating the rough edges of the bands that inspired them is disingenuous. The purpose of recording music in a studio as opposed to live is so that the listener can hear a faithful reproduction of what the instruments played. A good engineer, mixer, and masterer-er-er should be able to capture a band's sound and present it in the best possible way. I wouldn't want to read a book where the author and editor intentionally obscured the words and burned the pages to fit an antique aesthetic, so why would I want my music to be treated the same?

At the end of the day, it's all up to what we prefer, really. I don't think any objective points can be made as to which is better in a case like this.


----------



## will_shred (Mar 27, 2014)

groverj3 said:


> Call me a rebel, but there's overproduced... lots of effects, electronic crap added where it's not needed, etc. Then there's clear production, which for some strange reason some people rebel against.
> 
> I mostly refuse to listen to music with terrible production. It hurts my ears. It's 2014 for god's sake.
> 
> This is all firmly just my opinion.



I totally agree with you. If i'm listening to a band I want to hear both guitars, bass, drums, and vocals clearly. There are a few bands where I think a really muddy production is good, like several people have mentioned Portal. I ....ing love Portal. The production just works perfectly with the music. 

However, on the exact opposite end of the spectrum you have tech death bands like Beyond Creation where the production is %100 crystal clear and damn near perfect. However I don't feel like it's over done because they don't use 5 guitar tracks and a lot of post eq. They just did it right. 

The guitars, the drums, the 6 string fretless bass all take their place firmly in the mix and can be heard throughout the album.


----------



## karjim (Mar 27, 2014)

Everything is caused by radios and MTV in 80's....It's called the LOUDNESS WAR.
Several articles are written about that, very interesting.
The overproducing, you mean THE ULTRA EDITING PROCESS for the leader of Born of Osiris ?  
I call that CHEATING !!!!! All has to be perfect, it's sad, we know that a guitar can't be as fluid as a piano but no, they cut everithing  and compress the shit to be loud and clear 
It's not the metal in its gender, every music are too compressed because they have to be at -2db for radio diffuseness and if it's not, then radios remastered the shit to have this big wall of sound for hipsters' cars.
When it comes to David Guetta music it's not a big deal if his miserable keyboard is overproduced but a PRS into a 6000£ amp with a legendary console, it's an heresy to overproduced this beautiful natural sound.
There is no more dynamic like we could see in classic music from -20db to -3db (think about Requiem from Mozart)
Now it's always -3db in your face
Btw Whitechapel The saw is the law is overproduced but damn' it's awesome, so mean, so loud, so fun


----------



## Abaddon9112 (Mar 27, 2014)

The Reverend said:


> I feel that bands these days emulating the rough edges of the bands that inspired them is disingenuous. The purpose of recording music in a studio as opposed to live is so that the listener can hear a faithful reproduction of what the instruments played. A good engineer, mixer, and masterer-er-er should be able to capture a band's sound and present it in the best possible way. I wouldn't want to read a book where the author and editor intentionally obscured the words and burned the pages to fit an antique aesthetic, so why would I want my music to be treated the same?



I tend to I think of production as a part of the actual music, the same way developing film is part of the art of photography. You could make the argument that the purpose of photography is to accurately capture an image, and that it's disingenuous to use archaic things like black and white film because we have so much better stuff available now. But art photography is certainly about more than that, and photographers often use old fashioned techniques for aesthetic effect. 

Likewise, in music there are times when accuracy is desirable and good, but there are others where a less-than-perfect recording can be used to create a certain aesthetic. The originators of death metal may have gotten their raw sound just by lack of access to better recording methods, but it certainly gave those records an atmosphere that's hard to come by today. I don't see anything wrong with trying to emulate that sound if it suits what you want to achieve musically.


----------



## Necris (Mar 27, 2014)

The Reverend said:


> Were these bands going for raw recordings? Or was that all they had access to, being in an underground genre of metal in the 90s? Did they go to expensive studios, and demand the worst equipment be used? How much of what we expect from OG death metal bands in terms of sound is a conditioned response to the trove of old albums that defined the genre?



Could the expense of studio time have necessitated the cutting of some corners in terms of sound? Maybe. Were these bands recording their albums in a garage with whatever they could find though? Hardly.

A lot of old death metal bands went to proper studios to record. Death recorded their first two albums at Music Grinder and Morrisound respectively; they continued recording at Morrisound for the remainder of their existence. 

Autopsy recorded Severed Survival and Mental Funeral at Starlight Sound and Different Fur.

A few of these studios have changed their names but they're all still around. 

Different Fur was well established long before Death Metal even existed; recording Stevie Wonder, Earth, Wind and Fire, Joe Satriani etc. I doubt they didn't have access to quality equipment. But if you listen to Mental Funeral I don't think you would believe the names mentioned above were among their previous clients.

If you have a reasonable collection of older Death Metal albums there is a good chance you have at least one that was recorded at Morrisound or mixed there. Clearly the sound was desirable. Unfortunately after a while bands that recorded there started being given similar overall sounds even though their approaches to the genre were different. 





> I feel that bands these days emulating the rough edges of the bands that inspired them is disingenuous.


I feel that some make the mistake of assuming that the rough edges of the old recordings was the _primary_ source of their atmosphere and thus are absolutely necessary to the sound; this is a common issue with Black Metal in particular. However, if you have written your music with a clear goal in mind and have come to the conclusion that a more raw/unpolished recorded sound will best compliment the nature of your music then I don't see how that is at all disingenuous. It is merely an artistic choice.



> The purpose of recording music in a studio as opposed to live is so that the listener can hear a faithful reproduction of what the instruments played.


I disagree with this. I feel the purpose of paying for studio time is to have access to a greater selection of gear to work with and the opportunity to work with an engineer who is knowledgeable in their use and can aid the band in getting a sound that works for them. Unfortunately that is rarely the case as many recording engineers simply take a one size fits all approach to recording bands. 

Moreover I think the reality is that you rarely get a faithful reproduction of what was played anymore; go to youtube right now and I'll bet you can find a video of some band that members like on here in the studio recording riff by riff or punching in a better take after making a mistake. 



> A good engineer, mixer, and masterer-er-er should be able to capture a band's sound and present it in the best possible way. I wouldn't want to read a book where the author and editor intentionally obscured the words and burned the pages to fit an antique aesthetic, so why would I want my music to be treated the same?


You're assuming that the most crystal clear sound possible is always the most desirable result. While it's not death metal; go back to the Gorgoroth videos and listen to a minute of each version of the track. The original may not be perfectly clear and frankly the drum sound is horrendous, but as a whole it has energy and aggression that are sorely lacking in the crystal clear perfectly polished rerecording. 

One feels as though it was performed with conviction, the other may have been too, but it's lost.


----------



## fps (Mar 27, 2014)

Necris said:


> You're assuming that the most crystal clear sound possible is always the most desirable result. While not death metal; go back to the Gorgoroth clip listen to a minute of each version of the track. The original may not be perfectly clear and frankly the drum sound is horrendous, but as a whole it has energy and aggression that are sorely lacking in the crystal clear perfectly polished rerecording.
> 
> One feels as though it was performed with conviction, the other may have been too, but it's lost.



The cleanliness of some metal mixes definitely sacrifices the earthiness, the piss and dirt. The Suffocation example above is perfect, I took back the new Suffocation because it just didn't have the balls in the guitars, that unholy sound of a beast from hell dragging you into the ground as it fell. It was hard to listen to, but not in a way that had me smiling.


----------



## morethan6 (Mar 27, 2014)

You know what, this is the same question that gets asked in the pro-audio world all the time, and I think I've essentially worked it out.

When people say 'I love the sound of 60s records' for example, what they actually mean is 'I love the VIBE of 60s records' They love the soul, the performance, the all playing together in a room, the music speaking louder than the production. They don't actually love the hiss of the tape and the vocals accidentally distorting and all that stuff, but the overall effect is awesome so the 'sound' gets bundled in as a make or break factor.

The same is true of metal.

There's clean, punchy production, and then there's the feeling that the person being recorded really meant it. Whilst the latter can work without the former, the reverse is not true. 

They don't always occur simultaneously, and when they do it's truly awesome. 

I think that's basically what it all boils down to. But hey, I might be talking total crap


----------



## Nats (Mar 27, 2014)

Recording has changed. People have changed. People can experiment more and get heard through the internet. Maybe bands aren't "scared" to break the mold of being "true" and recording how they want and other bands think it's finally ok and follow suit. Plus people can tinker with their sound as much as possible for next to nothing to polish a recording to their liking. Many different variables to think about.


----------



## avinu (Mar 27, 2014)

I'm leaning more towards a nostalgia bias possibly.


----------



## Shimme (Mar 27, 2014)

avinu said:


> I'm leaning more towards a nostalgia bias possibly.



Why? Death metal isn't exclusively listened to by people who were there when it started.

I'm a college kid straight out of high school, my first DM experiences where with Nile and The Faceless, I've listened to DM for about 5 years,there is nobody in family that was blasting Morbid Angel when I was a toddler, and I still prefer the older approach. It literally can`t be nostalgia for me, I wasn't there for the early days and the first stuff I listened to was well produced.

To me it seems obvious based on my own experience that there is some aesthetic that low-fi production gives music


----------



## AdamMaz (Mar 27, 2014)

Necris said:


> Severed Survival and Mental Funeral, while they may not have pristine mixes, have a sound that actually fits the music. I listened to each new Autopsy album maybe twice each and then gave them away; they have no lasting replay value; there's nothing to draw you in. They evoke nothing.


My experience/opinion is near-identical to this.


----------



## Konfyouzd (Mar 27, 2014)

I'm not really sure, honestly. But I do think some of the older death metal wasn't produced in a way that let you fully hear what was going on all the time. There are a lot of older death metal bands I didn't really dig all that much after hearing their recordings because it kind of just all sounded like a shaken bee hive. 

Then I see them live and can hear the complexity in what's going on a little better and gained some more respect for bands I used to hate.

That said, I feel like maybe what you hear as overproduction is just a result of how far production in this genre has come? Or perhaps they've overdone it as a result of feeling the way I used to and they'll slowly work their way back to some peaceful medium between back then and now... 

I wish I had more to add in the way of tech talk--mids and what not... I can't, though.


----------



## rastachild (Mar 27, 2014)

i think the reverend brings up a great point, which is while we may fall in love with an album and listen to it to the point where we get every particular detail of the sound engraved in our ear, oftentimes you'll read an interview with the band after it was released (usually when they're preparing, recording or releasing the next album) where they list off everything they didn't like about it. i've recorded a few eps/cds with bands in studios and i can honestly say i've never been 100% happy with some aspect of my own tone, let alone the overall mix or production. it's natural that we want to 'fix' things the next time around, or in some bands case, go back and fix an old album. 

an interesting example of 'you can't please everyone' is nevermore's remaster of enemies of reality. when they first recorded that album, it was produced by kelly gray, who produced what the band considered a very muddy sounding album. i totally remember there were tons of complaints about how shitty it sounded. when they came out with the sneap remaster, all of a sudden a whole faction of people who loved the original master came out of the woodwork condemning the sneap master (i personally loved the sneap remaster btw).

anyway, production is just like music in that it's cyclical. it's to a point where it trends towards 'overproduced' and then a 'lo fi' movement starts to gain steam for awhile.


----------



## BucketheadRules (Mar 27, 2014)

I think it can be... certainly in tech death. One thing that particularly irks me in a lot of modern metal is the kick drum - it so often just sounds clicky and processed, rather than the punch in the gut that it should be. Much as I love Decapitated, they are very guilty of this... the bass drum so often sounds like it's just made of plastic. That being said, I don't like listening to stuff I consider "underproduced" either.

I don't necessarily want it to sound perfect, but I do want to hear what's going on. As a not-particularly-modern example, I really like the way "Heartwork" by Carcass sounds - it's still "human", not glossy and quantized, but all the instruments are made to sound their best.


----------



## guitarfan85 (Mar 27, 2014)

Darkane - Demonic art has terrible production


----------



## avinu (Apr 1, 2014)

> Why? Death metal isn't exclusively listened to by people who were there when it started.



Because I think it's relevant a lot of times. Especially when you hear older people talk about how there's no good music being produced in our current time. I never said that it was the one and only reason/explanation but I do think it's a factor for some people. A person like yourself would obviously be an exception the that group. Don't get me wrong I like my fair share of different production styles. I do enjoy lo-fi quality stuff, I just don't prefer it in the genre that OP was asking about. For me personally a genre like death metal that has so many intricacies is going to sound more "listenable" in a setting with "high value" production.


----------



## GalacticDeath (Apr 1, 2014)

I can appreciate the recordings of early death metal bands from the 90's but recording standard has changed a lot since then. If I hear a modern band with 90's quality recording I'm probably not going to listen to it for very long.

I prefer cleaner, tighter recordings


----------



## Mischief (Apr 1, 2014)

Depends... Do you consider THIS to be overproduced:  

Okay, okay. Call me young, call me Ishmael- just kidding. Anyway, I didn't experience the half of the 90s that I did, listening to death metal, so I have no such nostalgia for lower production values. Also, I'm an electronic music producer, so perhaps I'm used to everything being neatly on time, and well produced, and everything well EQ'd and all that. To each their own, I say. As long as the creative vision of the music is still upheld, as long as the creativity is unharmed, I have no problem with the extra polish. If a recording is quite rubbish, the polish make make it sound a bit better, but that will never make a rubbish recording decent.

I'm blithering, I shall stop now.


----------



## Andromalia (Apr 1, 2014)

You can have cheap production that doesn't sound like utter shit. Say, Pure Holocaust from Immortal. (thats 1993 if memory serves me right)
You can also have expensive production that sounds lively and not overdone. Say, recent Maiden albums.
I blame the loudness wars on this. When everyone is slamming the limiter, everything more or less starts to sound the same and your options become limited, too.

Other things come into play. In a digital age, room sound becomes less and less important as half of the stuff is taken direct. The equipment is comparatively much less expensive so everyone tends to use the same gear and software. (Protools, to start with, and various high end plugins)

That said I like well produced albums, but can't stand Sneap records, for exemple. I'm disappointed that, as their career goes on, Amon Amarth recordings lose all dynamics.

Before: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rntRDqpaY2g

(that's my favorite song from them)

After: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgWtCD9T3lg

I seriously hope they stop there in the slippery slope. It's still good, but the trend is obvious. :/


----------



## rectifryer (Apr 1, 2014)

If your band loses its edge because of clear production then son......


Newer Suffocation, Fallujah, Gorod all sound fantastic to me. Could not stand older suffocation.


----------



## Sebazz1998 (Apr 1, 2014)

Metal nowadays is very clear and I love that element of it. But sometimes, because it is so compressed and the dynamics are so squashed, the music is very tedious on your ears. Honestly, I feel like I would be able to enjoy alot more metal with a simpler yet still clear production. The triggered face punching bass drum and CRACKY snare and stuffing every frequency sounds super loud and full but it is harder on the listeners ears. And as someone who records and writes music its great to remember this. Sometimes, toning stuff down a bit will sound better in the long run.


----------



## blaaargh (Apr 1, 2014)

im biased on this question because I got into really extreme stuff via Emperor's self-titled ep and I ....ing hate tech death, but imho absolutely. I get bored so quickly with recordings that have been polished to death, because I like it when a record has a little bit of mystery to it. like necris said, music that is suposedly complex shouldn't lay itself totally bare after just one playthrough. one recent album that I thought did a good job with modern production was Wormed's release last year - it had a great mix and was super clear, but it wasn't covered in digital jizz. I suppose they get a bit of a pass since that whole cold inhuman thig is kind of what they're going for, but still... idk.


----------



## vilk (Apr 1, 2014)

It is possible to have modern production values and still sound good. Gorguts' Colored Sands' production sounds like GOD ALMIGHTY.

But I would agree that 90% of modern death metal these days is going at it from the wrong angle. It sounds too sterile and ... uh... over-produced.. heh. New suffo fallujah jfac etc. production is boring as farts.

Of course a boring production job isn't going stop me from enjoying a new album if the writing is really stand-out... but I feel like in most cases death metal bands that over-produce their album aren't writing anything worthwhile.


----------



## rectifryer (Apr 2, 2014)

vilk said:


> It is possible to have modern production values and still sound good. Gorguts' Colored Sands' production sounds like GOD ALMIGHTY.
> 
> But I would agree that 90% of modern death metal these days is going at it from the wrong angle. It sounds too sterile and ... uh... over-produced.. heh. *New suffo fallujah jfac etc. production is boring as farts.*
> 
> Of course a boring production job isn't going stop me from enjoying a new album if the writing is really stand-out... but I feel like in most cases death metal bands that over-produce their album aren't writing anything worthwhile.


 How so? I love it personally. I guess we have yet to define what production means. 

I feel like a lot of the old production actually hid some of the sloppy playing. The new production makes it harder to play sloppy without tons of editing. You may lose some of the feel if you don't understand that beats aren't always exactly on time and try to edit them to be exactly on time. I think a lot of newer bands don't realize this.


----------



## vm27 (Apr 2, 2014)

will_shred said:


> death metal has lost it's soul


  Quite ironic, isn't it?


----------



## DarkWolfXV (Apr 2, 2014)

I used to say that yes, it is overproduced, but now I'd say no. I love the "modern" sound. Especially in death metal, deathcore and such. It's okay for me when everything is quantized etc. the only real problem I have is when the drums sound obviously fake because that can be pretty tiring on the ear. Otherwise, I love everything else. Lots of old school death metal wouldn't work with a modern sound though, same with genres like doom etc.

Compare the sonic mass of something like "Hate" by Thy Art Is Murder to something like "The End Complete" by Obituary. For me, the first is WAY more powerful, even if the second has better riffing more often than not. I like that death metal and other extreme music is heading to overproduction. It is "death" metal. Making it sound as clean, cold and as pristine as possible is removing humanity from it. It makes it even more inhuman. Death is cold too, remember?


----------



## oompa (Apr 2, 2014)

yes, a bit.

mainly because so many death metal bands do not stand for anything except trying to make money off of frustating teens who need a vent, there is no real thought behind it and they just want to be cool. So they don't get it (in my opinion). They lack spirit and they over-produce because they can't tell what they're missing themselves.

Then there is poor engineering/mastering/mixing where an album sound-walls and just sounds like shit (see Gorguts for a healthy alternative and enjoy not being fatigued in 10 minutes as with so many other modern releases).

Crisp sound and good production is fine, I like it, but bands aim for good production for different reasons. If you aim for it because you actually want details to come forward it is fine. If you do it because you have no clue what you are doing and just "go for the best" completely not understanding the importance of charm and character then you miss the point, should switch hobbies and I am not interested 

(harsh, yes, but I am picky! )


----------



## fps (Apr 2, 2014)

DarkWolfXV said:


> It is "death" metal. Making it sound as clean, cold and as pristine as possible is removing humanity from it. It makes it even more inhuman. Death is cold too, remember?



Nah this depends on the band and their approach. Death comes in many forms.


----------



## Lifestalker (Apr 2, 2014)

No, it's not overproduced. Only an arrogant elite 90's metalhead would think so. I appreciate shitty production for what it is, but standards have changed. 

I prefer a tight and clear production. There are so many albums I won't listen to anymore because they sound so harsh in comparison. If I do, it's only a song or two at a time.


*Ninja Edit*: I do have to say, this album is one I can listen to over and over and over again and never grow tired of it. I think it captures the brutality, the hate, the violence, the sex, the drugs, etc that you speak of...with perfection. It's the cd that truly invoked my interest in death metal.


----------



## thrsher (Apr 2, 2014)

i appreciate modern production, fully. i do agree that it can easily ruin a record but for the most part, in death metal, i dont think so. some old stuff is just completely un-listenable 

I.E. suffocation breeding the spawn since suffo is being referenced. i think alot of early material is great, well written but the production blows and i dont enjoy listening to it. another that comes to mind is devourment molesting the decapitated, that record production blows balls and die hard devourment fans eat me alive for talking bad about it. 

to OP, funny you listed ashes of the wake, i think sacrament was extremely over produced way more that ashes. ashes is defiantly polished buts its extremely tight and displayed their musicianship peaking and i didnt feel like it was at a loss due to production. i do think production ruined sacrament and took away that "feel" to it


----------



## Veldar (Apr 2, 2014)

Sometimes modern production actually hurts my ears, I think it might be due to capturing more frequencys but I have no idea.


----------



## gunch (Apr 2, 2014)

I think ultra clean ultra quantized productions take away from the performance 

But again it all comes down to how a specific band wants to sound 

What I really get mad at is when guitars are too low in the mix and you can't even make out what the hell is going on 

Many bands of specific tones and sound aesthetics so I really can't get into that


----------



## abandonist (Apr 2, 2014)

Just listen to robots.


----------



## Necris (Apr 2, 2014)

thrsher said:


> i appreciate modern production, fully. i do agree that it can easily ruin a record but for the most part, in death metal, i dont think so. some old stuff is just completely un-listenable
> 
> I.E. suffocation breeding the spawn since suffo is being referenced. i think alot of early material is great, well written but the production blows and i dont enjoy listening to it.



Well, Suffocation themselves weren't happy with the sound on Breeding the Spawn either; that production wasn't a conscious decision on their part, Roadrunner wouldn't pay for them to record at Morrisound where they had recorded Effigy of the Forgotten. 

Which is why they've been including a rerecorded track from the album on every subsequent album.


----------



## Joose (Apr 3, 2014)

All in all, I do not think it's overproduced. Evolution. 

That being said, I think it's all so subjective. I hear some and think, "If this was a little rawer, it would be sick"; others, the opposite.


----------



## amputecht (Dec 25, 2014)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9O85ffJMSY&list=PLrvPS21gM2_t705s_0k2fTNgEm5x1aj8D&index=5

modern production, raw performance, minimal editing (clearly vocals had some cool techniques with panning and etc)

But this album is my perfect example of modern mixing fitting in with melodeath.


----------



## Defi (Dec 25, 2014)

I don't think production can be put on a vertical continuum of good to bad so much as it can be on a horizontal continuum of different. That is to say production should be more of an exploratory effort on each album, not just the standard buss this, compress that, formula that goes into every album.

Different things work for different albums, but the best production is always that which favors holism over deconstructionism thus making the entire selection of tracks form a cohesive soundscape and attitude. Usually the analytical emphasis on a super clean and articulated sound ends up sterile, which may still sound like music, but definitely loses feel. This is a big hurdle for an artist to have to accept that many elements they work hard to produce will not be discernible but will rather contribute to the overall sound.


----------



## Zalbu (Dec 26, 2014)

I will admit that I don't listen to much classic death metal but The Black Dahlia Murder is the perfect example of how modern, polished production doesn't necessarily sacrifice the grit and soul. Many people probably consider them overproduced but it's one of my all time favorite productions. 



I personally don't see the point in bands who try to go for a low-fi, unpolished sound on purpose and I have a hard time getting into bands with sub-par production. It might work in some rare cases but it often just feels like a waste of studio time to me.


----------



## Thorerges (Dec 26, 2014)

Yes.


----------



## McKay (Dec 26, 2014)

Entrails have great production and they're not "overproduced" sounding. I think the "soulless" characteristic people associate with a lot of (not all obviously) modern Death Metal is down to the writing rather than the mixing. I do think getting the right tone to the record is super important though, and I don't mean guitar tone as some standalone thing. I mean like the sonic vibe. The feel of it.


----------



## PlumbTheDerps (Dec 26, 2014)

It really depends on the record. Old Suffocation is nearly unlistenable to me, but Left Hand Path and None So Vile have held up incredibly well. And while it's possible to go overboard (Psycroptic, Origin), sorta-raw-but-still-well-produced death metal is definitely achievable. Nile is a good example; Bloodbath (at least on their last two or three) is another. 

Raw production is much more important to me in black metal. Can't stand Blut Aus Nord's latest record or the revamped version of Under the Sign of Hell. It just fundamentally doesn't work with the music, whereas with death metal good production and "vibe" aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.


----------



## Lifestalker (Dec 26, 2014)

*This is the ONE album I would never want to experience with modern production. I love it the way it is.*


----------



## fps (Dec 26, 2014)

PlumbTheDerps said:


> It really depends on the record. Old Suffocation is nearly unlistenable to me, but Left Hand Path and None So Vile have held up incredibly well. And while it's possible to go overboard (Psycroptic, Origin), sorta-raw-but-still-well-produced death metal is definitely achievable. Nile is a good example; Bloodbath (at least on their last two or three) is another.
> 
> Raw production is much more important to me in black metal. Can't stand Blut Aus Nord's latest record or the revamped version of Under the Sign of Hell. It just fundamentally doesn't work with the music, whereas with death metal good production and "vibe" aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.



Interesting you put Psycroptic in the overproduced category - from what I recall of I've heard they have very raw and organic tones. In what way do you find it overboard?


----------



## Ataraxia2320 (Dec 26, 2014)

It depends on the band, but I personally prefer a modern production style, or at least when it comes to tech death. Guys like Black dahlia murder, Decapitated, Cannibal Corpse and Vader are all doing it right by my book.


----------



## InfestedRabite (Dec 27, 2014)

nothing wrong with clear production on some styles of modern DM (especially stuff with more technical guitars etc), but some bands are taking it too far and you get this really boring, sterile drum/guitar sound, and like with the more raw style you could argue it's just part of their aesthetics but it's not a style i ever want to listen to

i thought the new gorguts and new jfac (assisted by them also writing better songs)
were pretty solid on clear+good. ne obliviscaris have really good production too imo

the two worst offenders on the overproduced side i've heard this year were archspire and beyond creation

like obviously music that technical needs to be clear, but come on...


----------



## guitaardvark (Dec 27, 2014)

"There's not such thing as overproduction, just bad production"


----------



## yingmin (Dec 27, 2014)

guitaardvark said:


> "There's not such thing as overproduction, just bad production"



This, exactly. A lot of people in the various metal camps seem to think that anything that is produced well is overproduced, but I reject that premise entirely. Something is only OVERproduced if it is produced in such a way that the recording is fundamentally unpleasant to listen to, like, for example, if it has too much compression or is EQed to sound shrill and grating or hollow. I can think of far more albums that I think would benefit from better, cleaner-sounding production than would sound better if they were more "raw".


----------



## Thorerges (Dec 27, 2014)

I am surprised no has mentioned this monstrosity. Drummer is from mars, eh?


----------



## drgamble (Dec 27, 2014)

Back in the day Morrisound was the shit for heavy bands. That was where bands went to get the best production they could at the time. Old School production doesn't really stand up to what people can do in their bedrooms these days. 25 years ago, death metal was new, it was underground, it was exciting. Most engineers had no idea how to deal with such extreme music because nobody had done that sort of thing before. I think the sound made it feel like something new. Back then, the only bands that had great production were your major label bands, Bon Jovi, Def Lepperd, Poison, and later on Nirvana, Pearl Jam etc. The death metal bands were trying to be the opposite of bands like that. 

Computer technology and the DAW have forever changed the face of recording, there is no doubt about it. Then again, nobody buys albums anymore. Maybe the two are related, maybe they're not. Certainly, 25 years ago production went hand in hand with money, and the raw sound contributed in some way to the feeling that we were listening to something that was new and on the cusp. It really seems like these days it is all a little old hat. I remember recording with my first death metal band to an 8 track cassette recorder back in 1994 in somebody else's bedroom. At the time, it blew our minds how great the production was compared to other bands with our meager budget. If we had what we have today, we could have sounded like a major label act in our own bedroom.

At some point, there was a shift in the matrix. Recording started out trying to capture a live performance as faithfully as possible. At some point, that crossed over to making something sound the best possible. Modern music production is not about capturing a performance anymore as much as it has become a creative tools itself. Outside of metal, it is heavily accepted that performers don't actually perform music live, but put on a show for all of the senses. I'm waiting for the day for a metal band to go out and pantomime an entire performance, but have all of the theatrics thrown in so nobody really notices/cares. That day is coming, but so far that kind of thing has been kept behind closed doors and only rumored. 

At the end of the day, I wouldn't say so much that modern music is over-produced, I'm not even really sure what that means. What I will say is that modern music ,more and more, is played by a computer. Maybe someday, there will be a revolt. There are a few musicians out there that market real live performances, not using autotune, etc. So far, nobody really cares. Who knows, maybe the day will come.


----------

