# FYI - available Blackmachine B7 at the BM site



## Fred the Shred (Apr 16, 2012)

As usual, I'm sure dibs will be called for those on the waiting list, but he has the FABULOUS B7 he had at the Messe for sale on his site:
blackmachine - Home Page

I am far from pleased with this, as it's my guitar's twin (Doug actually swapped the necks between them) and was meant to be Doug's personal guitar, which I hoped he'd keep. For those wanting to know, it's this one:


It sounds pretty much like mine, if you need a reference: aggressive, very full, wicked midrange.


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## nickable (Apr 16, 2012)

Very cool! How much you think it will go for?


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## leonardo7 (Apr 16, 2012)

Good luck guys. My offer of over $7500 has already been responded with "theres been an offer for more". There always seems to be someone who has offered more than any offer you will make, no matter how much you offer! Dont waste your time. The price will go up to over $9000, $11,000 and there will still be someone who apparently is offering more than you and it will still end up going to someone who has been waiting longer than you lol. Trust me, its a waste of your time. I wish there was just a solid price and that his guitars would just go to whoever buys it first.


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## nickable (Apr 16, 2012)

Ah i see, no fixed price..kind of a bidding thing! Hmm..


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## FrancescoFiligoi (Apr 16, 2012)

It's not about whoever offers more money, at all. It's Doug in the end who chooses the right player for his guitars.


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## Lorcan Ward (Apr 16, 2012)

So you send him soundclips?

Congrats to however gets this!


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## requiemsoup (Apr 16, 2012)

So does he not make guitars anymore? I'm pretty dense.. I really want one and am quite aware it'll be expensive but I'll work towards it.


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## themike (Apr 16, 2012)

leonardo7 said:


> Good luck guys. My offer of over $7500 has already been responded with "theres been an offer for more".




That's kind of unfortunate that it works that way.....


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## technomancer (Apr 16, 2012)

leonardo7 said:


> Good luck guys. My offer of over $7500 has already been responded with "theres been an offer for more". There always seems to be someone who has offered more than any offer you will make, no matter how much you offer! Dont waste your time. The price will go up to over $9000, $11,000 and there will still be someone who apparently is offering more than you and it will still end up going to someone who has been waiting longer than you lol. Trust me, its a waste of your time. I wish there was just a solid price and that his guitars would just go to whoever buys it first.


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## Razzy (Apr 16, 2012)

If someone will give him in excess of $10k for one if his guitars, more power to him.


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## Mitochondria (Apr 16, 2012)

Sorry but I'll be just fine spending $1600 on a Look-a-like Siggery..... though not a day goes buy that i don't dream about owning a REAL B7. 

They are the modern day 59' Gibson Les Paul....


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## Stealthdjentstic (Apr 16, 2012)

Thats pretty cool though, good for him for being able to charge good money for his work. I think it would be a lot more sensible for him to put them on an online auctioning website like...Ebay though.

Hopefully an SSO'er grabs it


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## mphsc (Apr 16, 2012)

Love his work and yea, it's worth what someone is willing to pay for it.


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## poopyalligator (Apr 16, 2012)

Hmmm. Don't get me wrong it looks like a great guitar. I think when you are hitting close to a 10k mark you aren't really buying a guitar anymore. You are kind of buying a piece of art. I hear people talking about how amazing they are, but how many people actually own or have even played one? While I have no doubt that they are good guitars, and probably play great, I could just never justify paying 10k on one even when I have the money to do it. That is just my  though. On a side note. Great playing Fred!


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## MikeH (Apr 16, 2012)

$10,000 for a guitar is ludicrous. I don't think I could ever bring myself to pay that much for a guitar, unless I had just won that $640,000,000 lottery that just passed.  More power to whoever buys it, though.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Apr 16, 2012)

poopyalligator said:


> Hmmm. Don't get me wrong it looks like a great guitar. I think when you are hitting close to a 10k mark you aren't really buying a guitar anymore. You are kind of buying a piece of art. I hear people talking about how amazing they are, but how many people actually own on or have even played one? While I have no doubt that they are good guitars, and probably play great, I could just never justify paying 10k on one even when I have the money to do it. That is just my  though. On a side note. Great playing Fred!



I agree about the art thing, it might even make sense to look at it as an investment seeing as how much they're fetching used.

The second Doug decides to start pumpin em out though people are fucked


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## USMarine75 (Apr 16, 2012)

OMG I would have offered $5k and thought that was enough. Ugh. I shall never own one.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Apr 16, 2012)

USMarine75 said:


> OMG I would have offered $5k and thought that was enough. Ugh. I shall never own one.



Hey finish becoming a doctor and you'll own one pretty fast!


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 16, 2012)

leonardo7 said:


> Good luck guys. My offer of over $7500 has already been responded with "theres been an offer for more". There always seems to be someone who has offered more than any offer you will make, no matter how much you offer! Dont waste your time. The price will go up to over $9000, $11,000 and there will still be someone who apparently is offering more than you and it will still end up going to someone who has been waiting longer than you lol. Trust me, its a waste of your time. I wish there was just a solid price and that his guitars would just go to whoever buys it first.





nickable said:


> Ah i see, no fixed price..kind of a bidding thing! Hmm..





FrancescoFiligoi said:


> It's not about whoever offers more money, at all. It's Doug in the end who chooses the right player for his guitars.



I think a builder can charge whatever they want, but this whole "no fixed price" bidding war and "choosing the right player" thing just smells bad. 

That's the kinds of crazy stuff that Zachary Guitars does, only Zachary isn't nuts, he's just trolling. 

Power to Doug, he's built quite the legacy. I just don't think someone with the will, cash, and desire can't have it simply because they're not worthy. 

EDIT: I can't stress enough how little I care about the price. I've seen enough five figure Alembic, Fodera, and Conklin builds to be immune to the shock and awe of buying an instrument for that much. It's more of how it's being done that smells of rotten fish.


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## technomancer (Apr 16, 2012)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I think a builder can charge whatever they want, but this whole "no fixed price" bidding war and "choosing the right player" thing just smells bad.
> 
> That's the kinds of crazy stuff that Zachary Guitars does, only Zachary isn't nuts, he's just trolling.
> 
> ...



I thought my  summed that up but it seems people thought I just meant the price... I was referring to the "auction" approach  Not like I was ever going to buy one anyways though, so I guess it doesn't matter what I think


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## Necris (Apr 16, 2012)

I can't help but feel that "choosing the right player" in this case means choosing the player who offers an amount that is either greater than or equal to the price Doug has in his head. 
It doesn't make a difference to me in the long run though, I'm not a Blackmachine fan.


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## poopyalligator (Apr 16, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> Hey finish becoming a doctor and you'll own one pretty fast!




Hahaha I am a doctor and I wouldnt pay 10k for that guitar lol.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 16, 2012)

Necris said:


> I can't help but feel that "choosing the right player" in this case means choosing the player who offers an amount that is either greater than or equal to the price Doug has in his head.



That, on it's face, is totally fine. Though, it would be nice, and much less shady in my eyes, if it was stated plainly that it was an auction situation, and those offering money were told what the current highest bid is. 

I guess I just think it would make all parties involved happier.


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## oremus91 (Apr 16, 2012)

MikeH said:


> $10,000 for a guitar is ludicrous. I don't think I could ever bring myself to pay that much for a guitar, unless I had just won that $640,000,000 lottery that just passed.  More power to whoever buys it, though.



Hell if I got that I'd give the guy a million and wipe my ass with the next million after I ATE the blackmachine.


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## themike (Apr 16, 2012)

But its not like a normal auction, its like this underground "no official word" scenario. 

It reminds me of the "Slave Auction" scene at the end of the movie Taken....


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## mikernaut (Apr 16, 2012)

Great playing in that vid Fred and Francesco


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## Stealthdjentstic (Apr 16, 2012)

MaxOfMetal said:


> That, on it's face, is totally fine. Though, it would be nice, and much less shady in my eyes, if it was stated plainly that it was an auction situation, and those offering money were told what the current highest bid is.
> 
> I guess I just think it would make all parties involved happier.



Yea, using eBay it would be very transparent


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## leonardo7 (Apr 16, 2012)

mikernaut said:


> Great playing in that vid Fred and Francesco



I second this. You guys are always top notch in your videos. Truly outstanding players


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## Fred the Shred (Apr 17, 2012)

Cheers, guys!


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## loktide (Apr 17, 2012)

So Blackmachine is becoming the Dumble of guitars? 

crazy pricing: check
only available to worthy players: check

even though i never have, and probably never will get the chance to play one, i'd love to own one if i was rich


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## Necris (Apr 17, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> Yea, using eBay it would be very transparent


It would be more transparent and less shady, but ebay would also take a cut of the final sale price which may be why Doug didn't go that route.


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## Edika (Apr 17, 2012)

This is mostly targeted to professional musicians and collectors. In general people that have played them describe them as superior instruments but there have been people that have sold them for various reasons, amongst them being some that didn't connect with the guitar as they expected.
Personally I would never give that kind of money (if I had it) before I tried one. If I liked it then I would buy it just as whim since I am not planning of becoming a famous musician that needs an instrument like that for professional recordings.
For experimenting there are a lot of cheaper guitars I could buy and sell before going the Blackmachine route which would too much for my current capabilities anyway.


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## MJS (Apr 17, 2012)

leonardo7 said:


> Good luck guys. My offer of over $7500 has already been responded with "theres been an offer for more".





FrancescoFiligoi said:


> *It's not about whoever offers more money, at all. *It's Doug in the end who chooses the right player for his guitars.



Thanks for clearing that up. I guess I won't bother offering $100,000 for it because I don't want to be humiliated when a much better player comes along and snags it out from under me with a $1,500 bid.


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## petereanima (Apr 17, 2012)

This is getting retarded.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Apr 17, 2012)

Retardedly awesome. Someone buy it already so I can come over and play it


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## UnderTheSign (Apr 17, 2012)

...For that money, I could buy a Meshuggah sig AND have money left for a deposit on that Parker Fly 7!


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## Tordah (Apr 17, 2012)

poopyalligator said:


> Hmmm. Don't get me wrong it looks like a great guitar. I think when you are hitting close to a 10k mark you aren't really buying a guitar anymore. You are kind of buying a piece of art. I hear people talking about how amazing they are, but how many people actually own or have even played one? While I have no doubt that they are good guitars, and probably play great, I could just never justify paying 10k on one even when I have the money to do it. That is just my  though. On a side note. Great playing Fred!



Price does not directly correlate to playability, quality and tone.

It's funny how guitars can turn from guitars, to pieces of art, to wall ornaments, to museum pieces.


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## Tyler (Apr 17, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> Retardedly awesome. Someone buy it already so I can come over and play it



Lets just have our own forum Blackmachine and rotate it between users. Cool? Cool


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## themike (Apr 17, 2012)

Hmm - I wonder what a quote for a Siggerymachine would be?


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## GSingleton (Apr 17, 2012)

too much...done.

I will just build my own.


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## Zado (Apr 17, 2012)

Just like previously said, expensive guitars= cheap art;of course a 9k$ guitars is not the key to play music you cannot play otherwise with WAY cheaper instruments.Pretty absurt considering that guitars are supposed to be tool for a Musical purpose, not the goal itself:TONS our favourite guitar heroes have become famous and beloved thus playing very modest gear back in da day.So yeah,it's ridiculous.


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## HighGain510 (Apr 17, 2012)

Misha's B2 was a VERY nice guitar. Not $7.5K+ nice IMO, but if you have the money and Dog likes you, hey, do your thing.  I too agree that it's not so much the price that bother's me about his operation, but more of the "taking offers... and I have to want you to have the guitar..." part of the buying experience with him.  Seems like an odd way to do things, if someone wants your guitar and you're trying to sell it, no need for all the mysticism behind it, people are still clearly willing to throw silly money your way without it.  

Again, no BM hate from me, I didn't care for Misha's B6 but his B2 was a very solid guitar.  Just think the business side of things with Doug's company is a bit strange.  The Dumble comparison is spot on.


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## Bigsby (Apr 17, 2012)

nellings6 said:


> Lets just have our own forum Blackmachine and rotate it between users. Cool? Cool



i think a lot of people would be pissed at me when it was my turn i would never give it up


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## USMarine75 (Apr 17, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> Hey finish becoming a doctor and you'll own one pretty fast!


 
Yeah but after all that studying to get licensed I won't have practiced guitar enough. I will have the $$$ but I won't be _worthy_. It is the Blackmachine conundrum... It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.

tl;dr fuck it, if my Schecter Loomis is good enough for Jeff... who am I to complain


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## themike (Apr 17, 2012)

USMarine75 said:


> tl;dr fuck it, if my Schecter Loomis is good enough for Jeff... who am I to complain


 
edit: nevermind! haha


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## USMarine75 (Apr 17, 2012)

^ reddit?


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## Zado (Apr 17, 2012)

USMarine75 said:


> tl;dr fuck it, if my Schecter Loomis is good enough for Jeff... who am I to complain


true,considering that the schecter loomis plays (or,at least,the one he played during the two clinics here in my hometown in 09 and 11) is exactly the same you can buy in a shop...with a magnificent setup


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## Anonymous (Apr 17, 2012)

USMarine75 said:


> It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.


 
MC Chris


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## USMarine75 (Apr 17, 2012)

OMG I must be old I dont know what a MC Chris is... 

Are you old enough to know who Winston Churchill and Joe Pesci are? (J/K )


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## Bigsby (Apr 17, 2012)

USMarine75 said:


> OMG I must be old I dont know what a MC Chris is...



*MOD EDIT: SEnd him a PM - let's keep this thread on track plez.*


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## Jake (Apr 17, 2012)

I feel like I could cut down the trees and harvest my own wood, then build the exact same guitar for way less than what he's asking...the prices are getting more out of hand every day. At least in my opinion


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## FrancescoFiligoi (Apr 17, 2012)

This has reached a point where I need to explain and clarify the situation, since there's nothing shady reguarding Doug's business side of things.

Doug's priority is NOT selling the guitar to the highest offer. He has a fixed price in his head and from there he accepts offers from everyone. 
He of course keeps note of the highest ones, but he's also picky about not selling it to somebody he's not familiar with, or a collector, or thinks is not the proper player for the instrument (for example, if he knows you're a heavy riffer and the guitar is built to be a very crisp and cutting instrument for leads, there's little chance he will keep you in consideration).

Do you think my offer for the B2 I bought was the highest one? Hell no. In the end it's a matter of offering the right amount of money he needs and somehow be noticed by him positively. Or at least prove that you will make good use of the guitar. Fred, for example, showed him his incredible skills and in the end even recorded his debut album with the B7, that's the difference between having a guitar and make good use of it.

In the end, it doesn't make any sense to put all his efforts, thoughts and passion into an instrument, and then waste its potential with a collector, for example. Although his guitars are Art in its purest form imho, they're still guitars and are made to be played.

On a side note, thank you mikernaut and leonardo7 for the compliments


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## glassmoon0fo (Apr 17, 2012)

I got an Agile 827 and $900 cash money (4th post)


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## themike (Apr 17, 2012)

FrancescoFiligoi said:


> This has reached a point where I need to explain and clarify the situation, since there's nothing shady reguarding Doug's business side of things.
> 
> Doug's priority is NOT selling the guitar to the highest offer. He has a fixed price in his head and from there he accepts offers from everyone.
> He of course keeps note of the highest ones, but he's also picky about not selling it to somebody he's not familiar with, or a collector, or thinks is not the proper player for the instrument (for example, if he knows you're a heavy riffer and the guitar is built to be a very crisp and cutting instrument for leads, there's little chance he will keep you in consideration).
> ...


 

Then why advertise the guitar? I mean if he needs to know your playing style, he obviously has to know you in person and an email list would be much better than publically posting it on his website, and on here as well.

I'm not attacking you by any means, even though your playing and talent enrages me , but it just seems a little offputting on Dougs part. 

I mean messageboards like this are mostly comrpomised of metal players - but whose to say a lot of us don't play smooth jazz, or great lead playing that we simply don't post videos of.

He doesn't owe any of us anything, and I have personally lost care and interest in BM after years and years of no activity/availability, but if he plans on turning the company into a production line with regularly available guitars like whats been hinted at - its not easy to forget a bad taste, even if its over something as simple as this


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## djpharoah (Apr 17, 2012)

FrancescoFiligoi said:


> (for example, if he knows you're a heavy riffer and the guitar is built to be a very crisp and cutting instrument for leads, there's little chance he will keep you in consideration).
> 
> Do you think my offer for the B2 I bought was the highest one? Hell no. In the end it's a matter of offering the right amount of money he needs and somehow be noticed by him positively. Or at least prove that you will make good use of the guitar. Fred, for example, showed him his incredible skills and in the end even recorded his debut album with the B7, that's the difference between having a guitar and make good use of it.
> 
> In the end, it doesn't make any sense to put all his efforts, thoughts and passion into an instrument, and then waste its potential with a collector, for example. Although his guitars are Art in its purest form imho, they're still guitars and are made to be played.


So unless I'm a guy making records and having a public video log on YouTube and attending every guitar festival every year with my BM there's no chance I'd own one? Even if I had the money? Even if I'm a riffer??

Sounds like it's more of further hyping up the BM line for publicity than it is selling a guitar. Guitars can be appreciated in many ways and it's up to the owner on how he does so. 

"Oh you have the money - well you're not that popular on the internet and thus I've decided you don't deserve the guitar thus it'll go to this guy who puts up YouTube videos daily of guitar licks and is a shredder and this guitar is made for shredding not riffs"

That is some total crock and makes me laugh - 

Btw - not knocking anyone personally in this but from the unbiased side of things it's pretty jacked up. 

PS - Doug is a marketing genius 1st then a luthier imo - the way he's created the brand name and the mysticism around them sheer genius.


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## themike (Apr 17, 2012)

Clearly djpharoah and I are sitting next to eachother discussing what we will post


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## Jake (Apr 17, 2012)

djpharoah said:


> So unless I'm a guy making records and having a public video log on YouTube and attending every guitar festival every year with my BM there's no chance I'd own one? Even if I had the money? Even if I'm a riffer??
> 
> Sounds like it's more of further hyping up the BM line for publicity than it is selling a guitar. Guitars can be appreciated in many ways and it's up to the owner on how he does so.
> 
> ...


All of this 

Even if I could afford one of these I just find it ridiculous that I wouldn't be able to have one anyway if i wasnt seen as a right fit. Sounds just like that nutjob Zachary from Zachary guitars but hey whatever makes the guy happy and brings in money


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 17, 2012)

Great minds and all that.


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## FrancescoFiligoi (Apr 17, 2012)

th3m1ke said:


> Then why advertise the guitar? I mean if he needs to know your playing style, he obviously has to know you in person and an email list would be much better than publically posting it on his website, and on here as well.
> 
> I'm not attacking you by any means, even though your playing and talent enrages me , but it just seems a little offputting on Dougs part.
> 
> ...



I get your point. He prefers to advertise the guitars and his work only through his website, and not in any other way, to keep it as underground as possible and have only real interest/stay away from collectors or time wasters.

He does have a list of guys who have shown real interest on his guitars, and these are the first to know when something's available. If none of them is able to offer/pay something around the price he's looking for, then the guitar becomes available publicly.

I know it kinda sounds weird for somebody when I say "he has to know the player is capable" but this also extends to the first impression. An email stating just "hey here's my offer" won't take you anywhere.

Thank you for appreciating my playing btw, it means a lot to me


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## themike (Apr 17, 2012)

FrancescoFiligoi said:


> I get your point. He prefers to advertise the guitars and his work only through his website, and not in any other way, to keep it as underground as possible and have only real interest/stay away from collectors or time wasters.
> 
> He does have a list of guys who have shown real interest on his guitars, and these are the first to know when something's available. If none of them is able to offer/pay something around the price he's looking for, then the guitar becomes available publicly.
> 
> ...




Just want to say that I appreciate how you are taking a fair and nutrual approach on this discussion and not getting defensive  

It is wierd, and 99% of people wont like how he's handling it. The other 1% own Blackmachines and could care less what kids on the internet are saying - so is life


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## FrancescoFiligoi (Apr 17, 2012)

djpharoah said:


> So unless I'm a guy making records and having a public video log on YouTube and attending every guitar festival every year with my BM there's no chance I'd own one? Even if I had the money? Even if I'm a riffer??



Maybe I should have explained that better: even the first impression he reaches from an email makes the difference. A guy just emailing him "here's my offer lemme know" won't go far, for example. Maybe a guy who tells Doug what music he plays, how he intends to use the guitar, etc would help.
I'm nobody though to tell that, in the end it's just him who decides. 
Also, lots of people are complaining about the fact Doug doesn't answer 99% of the emails, that's just because he receives more than 100s emails per day, expecially when he makes a guitar available, and just doesn't have the time. But he does read them of course.

Yeah there's a lot of mysticism around BMs but that wasn't created by Doug in the first place. 

I personally think his guitars are worth even huge amounts of money and are the best instruments I've ever played, but to each one his own.


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## s4tch (Apr 17, 2012)

djpharoah said:


> So unless I'm a guy making records and having a public video log on YouTube and attending every guitar festival every year with my BM there's no chance I'd own one? Even if I had the money? Even if I'm a riffer??



It's a bit like Bugatti: they tracked down clients before selling a Veyron to any of them. I see the point: the factory doesn't want to get his image compromised by some customers. But when it's down to guitars, I feel this attitude a bit oddish.


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## Quinny (Apr 17, 2012)

Ha, calm down people, it's just guitars!!

There are a lot of non BM-owners making supposition and assumption on the ins and outs of BlackMachine Guitars and Doug himself.....also a few actual BM owners reckoning they know something more solid and absolute (at least some aspects of which they've reckoned wrong)... and all the while there's really only one man who completely knows what's what. And that's his business.

Fair play to Doug for being able to sell his guitars 100% however HE desires, must be a good position to be in... and fair play to everyone else who decides it's not for them and move on to other things. If you don't like it, walk on....really not that difficult. It's just guitars. I've got one, would like another one day, if I never get one then I'm sure my heart'll keep beating.

Fred - I must check out some of your recordings, really good playing.


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## Fred the Shred (Apr 17, 2012)

Francesco has pretty much explained the thick of how it works, and I do understand how, in a world in which most of what we buy is quite linearly done i.e. pick / spec -> pay -> get goodies, these whole "match guitar to player" may be perceived as some mystic thing that will work its mojo etc..

The purpose is to make sure the instrument itself is also adequate for the buyer, not just the whole "is this guy a certified guitar god that splits oceans with a mere chord" thing. Doug doesn't like to see his VERY work-intensive axes arrive at a player only to be met with either indifference or disappointment, thus trying his best to make sure the work doesn't go to waste, so to speak. Don't even get me started on his views about people hoarding BM's for collection purposes...


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## HighGain510 (Apr 17, 2012)

Fred the Shred said:


> The purpose is to make sure the instrument itself is also adequate for the buyer, not just the whole "is this guy a *certified guitar god the splits oceans with a mere chord*" thing.



You know, I sent my email to him saying that verbatim, yet I didn't get picked for the guitar?!


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## Randy (Apr 17, 2012)

Considering the criteria that Francesco and Fred both put out there, I still don't know how leonardo7 wasn't "picked" for one of these Blackmachines considering the amount of interest he's had in Doug's stuff for a while.


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## FrancescoFiligoi (Apr 17, 2012)

Randy said:


> Considering the criteria that Francesco and Fred both put out there, I still don't know how leonardo7 wasn't "picked" for one of these Blackmachines considering the amount of interest he's had in Doug's stuff for a while.



Actually leonardo7 has a beautiful Blackmachine, maybe he will post it these days (I hope so)


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## vampiregenocide (Apr 17, 2012)

I'm glad I've had the chance to play a BM, cos I sure as hell would never be able to afford one.  It's a bit insane when you have to get picked to have the honour of buying a guitar though. Sounds like a damn cult.


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## Randy (Apr 17, 2012)

My bad. Just found his thread and didn't realize that was his.

Even still, he's a good guy, great player and made a generous offer.


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## themike (Apr 17, 2012)

Randy said:


> Considering the criteria that Francesco and Fred both put out there, I still don't know how leonardo7 wasn't "picked" for one of these Blackmachines considering the amount of interest he's had in Doug's stuff for a while.


 
Becuase Leonardo clearly :chugchugchug:'s when he should :djentchugsqueal: and that just don't work on this 250 year old Ash/Ebony/Snakewood construction 




FrancescoFiligoi said:


> Actually leonardo7 has a beautiful Blackmachine, maybe he will post it these days (I hope so)


 
He did already, but for the purpose of this argument I will point out he bought it used, on eBay from a private seller and not from Doug.


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## mikemueller2112 (Apr 17, 2012)

djpharoah said:


> So unless I'm a guy making records and having a public video log on YouTube and attending every guitar festival every year with my BM there's no chance I'd own one? Even if I had the money? Even if I'm a riffer??
> 
> Sounds like it's more of further hyping up the BM line for publicity than it is selling a guitar. Guitars can be appreciated in many ways and it's up to the owner on how he does so.
> 
> ...



Can you really fault the guy for wanting to have his guitar go to someone that could maybe generate more interest. He obviously wants his guitars seen as something of high quality and desirable. Sure, by doing this, the brand is being hyped even more. Why can't he do that? It's his guitar, he can sell it to who he wants, for whatever reason. He's making a living for himself too, he's not running a charity case.


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## FrancescoFiligoi (Apr 17, 2012)

th3m1ke said:


> Becuase Leonardo clearly :chugchugchug:'s when he should :djentchugsqueal: and that just don't work on this 250 year old Ash/Ebony/Snakewood construction
> 
> He did already, but for the purpose of this argument I will point out he bought it used, on eBay from a private seller and not from Doug.



I wasn't referring to leo7's B2, but another Blackmachine he has that's even better


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## Quinny (Apr 17, 2012)

Hasn't occurred to you that the number of wizard players like Leonardo7 looking for BMs (lots, probably) still might outweigh the number of BMs being made available (not lots)? Lots of guys been wanting them for years, lots of them amazing players, lots of them making "generous" offers most likely. They're not all going to be able to buy one.

Here's another snippet of info, consider of it what you will. I recently sold one of my BMs - had about 100 offers for it, still receiving them every couple of days. It's very apparent when you're selling one that there are people who are purely collectors and want one for the perception of 'club membership'. That's fine, if that's your thing.... I know someone with a £7k guitar which he's never even plugged in, but it's his money and if that's what he wants to do with it that's his biz. I sold mine for £750 less than one guy I KNOW is purely a collector offered, sold it to someone I'm confident will play the shit out of it. Would have been such a shame to see it become just a part of a collection, price to the player guy was more than fair so we did a deal. Whether or not it's actually true that Doug thinks similar when selling them I don't know, but I appreciate the perspective if so.


Q.


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## FrancescoFiligoi (Apr 17, 2012)

Quinny said:


> Hasn't occurred to you that the number of wizard players like Leonardo7 looking for BMs (lots, probably) still might outweigh the number of BMs being made available (not lots)? Lots of guys been wanting them for years, lots of them amazing players, lots of them making "generous" offers most likely. They're not all going to be able to buy one.
> 
> Here's another snippet of info, consider of it what you will. I recently sold one of my BMs - had about 100 offers for it, still receiving them every couple of days. It's very apparent when you're selling one that there are people who are purely collectors and want one for the perception of 'club membership'. That's fine, if that's your thing.... I know someone with a £7k guitar which he's never even plugged in, but it's his money and if that's what he wants to do with it that's his biz. I sold mine for £750 less than one guy I KNOW is purely a collector offered, sold it to someone I'm confident will play the shit out of it. Would have been such a shame to see it become just a part of a collection, price to the player guy was more than fair so we did a deal. Whether or not it's actually true that Doug thinks similar when selling them I don't know, but I appreciate the perspective if so.
> 
> ...



I think he does think very similar to your approach, and that imho is the best way to handle it!


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## Quinny (Apr 17, 2012)

Makes you wonder how I ever got one at all with my 'skills' eh!?


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## FrancescoFiligoi (Apr 17, 2012)

Quinny said:


> Makes you wonder how I ever got one at all with my 'skills' eh!?



You're definitely a good player (to my ears) and most importantly a good guy and a class act. That may be the answer.  Sorry for the OT!


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## leonardo7 (Apr 17, 2012)

FrancescoFiligoi said:


> I wasn't referring to leo7's B2, but another Blackmachine he has that's even better



 NGD is coming soon 



Quinny said:


> I sold it to someone I'm confident will play the shit out of it.


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## Fred the Shred (Apr 17, 2012)

Does that mean you don't need the Jackson 8 any more? *runs*

I wanted to nail that F8 Doug had at the Messe SO much. Gah!


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## FrancescoFiligoi (Apr 17, 2012)

Fred the Shred said:


> Does that mean you don't need the Jackson 8 any more? *runs*
> 
> I wanted to nail that F8 Doug had at the Messe SO much. Gah!



I actually think the F8 is still available, don't know really...


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## leonardo7 (Apr 17, 2012)

Fred the Shred said:


> Does that mean you don't need the Jackson 8 any more? *runs*
> 
> I wanted to nail that F8 Doug had at the Messe SO much. Gah!



With the prices Ive had to pay for these Blackmachines you would think so right! Maroon one isnt going anywhere! I did mention trading the gray one before for a Blackmachine but its soooo nice and it would be soooo hard to let it go. Maybe for a Blackmachine but even then it would be a long and hard thought out process haha

Just ask Mesh how long my process is to sell guitars. Lets just say that he was very very patient in acquiring the Silverburst soloist 7 from me haha


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## MAJ Meadows SF (Apr 17, 2012)

I"m compelled to expand on this a bit. I think you have to take what Francesco said into account and also remember this: these are personal builds Doug is making. He used to take custom orders, and there was less discrimination, i.e., he wouldn't turn people down because of what or how they played, you could choose woods and pickups, though he would always give the best input based on what the instrument would handle the best. Again, those were custom orders. Last year and as far as I know this year as well Doug explained to me (never had an issue emailing him just takes a while to turn around; had great conversations too) he wants to build guitars his way, kind of his own one of a kind customs from woods he has collected over the years and likes. He is investing all of himself in a very personal way in these instruments and thereby is aiming to put them in good hands. I'm not saying he's treating these like his children, but the principle is similar. Putting myself in his shoes I wouldn't want to invest that much into something in such a personal way and have it end up behind glass (unless it's a Skwisgaar guitar temperature controlled humidor) or owned by someone who won't appreciate it and turn around and sell it. Is this entirely fair for the masses interested in owning a BM? Not really, but that's not the point with these particular BM builds. He would prefer them to be in discerning players' hands. It's not just about the art that the instrument is, but the art it's used for.

This is similar to selling show dogs, special breed companion dogs, or military dogs (mine dogs, rescue dogs, etc). They don't belong just in any home. I used to raise and sell champion show line dogs, and I would screen prospective buyers. There were some people I would flat refuse to sell to regardless of money, and I've sold dogs to people for less because I truly felt they were the right fit for the animal. This creates PR and marketing, yes, but it favors the animal, the breed, and my business. I have many repeat buyers because of this and from the quality of dogs I raised and which ones were used for breeding. 

I'd love to own almost any BM, but I have my own preferences. I've only seen a few B2s recently that I really favored, and never a B6 until the latest NGD post. And holy shit the F8 in that clip Fred posted is unbelievable. Just wow. I'd prefer to be fitted to the right instrument myself, and I would want the best input and effort from the luthier. I fully understand the idea behind personalization and art. Dylan of Daemoness has a similar approach with his artwork and inlays; it's always his interpretation, with his twist, and he doesn't CTRL+C, CTRL+P sketches and examples. He makes it in his way and there are things he won't do, even though the customer is paying for it. It keeps the integrity of the brand. BM is on a 'Stradivarius' level in playability, quality, and mystique, but they do belong, IMAO, in players hands. These in particular belong in the hands Doug prefers them in if he can help it, because the builds are on a very personal level. I'm personally willing to wait for the right opportunity for the right guitar, so I get his logic.


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## MAJ Meadows SF (Apr 17, 2012)

FrancescoFiligoi said:


> I actually think the F8 is still available, don't know really...



That F8 is out of this world! The body looks like Nolly's first B2, plus an incredible fretboard. I'd love to hear some recorded music with it. Just the same, your B2! I actually had that discussion with Doug about these being personal builds, his business, etc, over that guitar. Enlightening to me, and I have much respect for him because of it.


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## -Nolly- (Apr 17, 2012)

^^ Yup.


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## Danukenator (Apr 17, 2012)

44 Lines said:


> Sorry but I'll be just fine spending $1600 on a Look-a-like Siggery..... though not a day goes buy that i don't dream about owning a REAL B7.



I second this. Think about BKP for a second. They are expensive and very highly regarded. They are hardish to get and have many accolades from high profile players. I personally believe there is a lot of hype surrounding them, probably from people that haven't ever even played them.

Blackmachine has basically taken this a step further. Doug added this mysticism to the his brand. Brilliant marketing but it reeks of marketing driving his sales. I agree with the criticism that it should be an open auction. The whole idea that "the player must have been born under the 17th moon" looks like he is just trying to find the most famous person to buy it and get him publicity for the possible return/production series of BM. 

I don't fault him for doing this, companies do it all the time. Just don't dress the situation up as a bullshit search for the right player when its just a search for the most famous fuckin' player.



On the note about the Siggery BM guitars, I thought people would love these. They are supposedly pretty nice and you can have something that is akin (of course it won't be the same) to the real deal. Hell, I'd love to see an A/B with them just to see how much more guitar you are actually getting with the Black Machine.


EDIT: TL;DR. He can do what he wants, just don't make it into something it's not. Be upfront about it and people wont't care. Make it sneaky and people will.


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## FrancescoFiligoi (Apr 17, 2012)

MAJ Meadows SF said:


> That F8 is out of this world! The body looks like Nolly's first B2, plus an incredible fretboard. I'd love to hear some recorded music with it. Just the same, your B2! I actually had that discussion with Doug about these being personal builds, his business, etc, over that guitar. Enlightening to me, and I have much respect for him because of it.



I told him the F8 was reminescent of Nolly's B2 and he said it's actually very different, the top is a one-piece very thick Private Stock quality and you just cannot find something better than that, quality-wise. I think it's the most beautiful Blackmachine I've ever seen. Sounded glorious with Haeussels too.

Thinking about Doug as a marketer or businessman is just wrong imho. Doing guitars is his enormous passion, he builds the instrument for himself primarily, to get better each time, one guitar after the other. People happen to really like his instruments, and that is good business for him, that's it.

I had the honour to talk in depth with him about his career and philosophy, and as MAJ said, it was just enlightening.


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## Adam Of Angels (Apr 17, 2012)

I don't know Doug, and I've never spoken to him, so what I say about his business isn't directly informed. 

It looks like he's trying to make sure his guitars end up in the hands of players who will keep them, so as to make sure that there aren't any floating around on the used market. 

It also looks like he's trying to make his guitars out to be these legendary, god-tier instruments that will some day be remembered as such and nothing less.

I'm not saying that either point is a bad one, necessarily, I'm just calling it as I see it.

I think it makes a lot more sense to build the right guitar for a player, rather than building the guitar and then waiting for the right player. What if the right player doesn't exist? 

On the other hand, I'm all for him being fully dedicated to his artistic expression and then just wanting to see that his guitar goes to the right home. I don't think there should be as strict of criteria, but then, I don't know if the criteria is very strict to begin with.

If it is indeed the case that only high-profile players, or guys who are offering unimaginable amounts of money are the only people who end up owning these guitars, I'm not sure how I feel about that. On one hand, its kind of cool to think that only accomplished musicians will end up with these guitars (like an elite brand), but on the other hand, its not exactly a way to build a solid customer base (but, it doesn't really look like Doug has a problem selling guitars or generating interest).

One thing is for sure, though: Whether or not his guitars are what they're hyped up to be, he doesn't have to make very many of them to get by, and that's pretty cool for him.


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## FrancescoFiligoi (Apr 17, 2012)

Adam Of Angels said:


> I don't know Doug, and I've never spoken to him, so what I say about his business isn't directly informed.
> 
> It looks like he's trying to make sure his guitars end up in the hands of players who will keep them, so as to make sure that there aren't any floating around on the used market.
> 
> ...



I don't think it was like that years ago, he just had a lot less people interested in his builds, and could (more or less) build the instrument to order. 
I get your point about the "right player", but right now it's personal builds, so he tries to have the absolute perfect instrument, rather than the perfect instrument for a certain player's taste. The search for the right player is not THAT strict, but as more people show him interest, it becomes more strict. Let's just say "right enough"  

That doesn't mean the person to whom goes the guitar has to be an accomplished musician (I'm nobody for example), he just has to "like" you, like HighGain510 said.


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## Unknown Doodl3.2 (Apr 17, 2012)

Damn, I'm definitely never going to have the chance to own one of these, being lefty and all 

The worst part is that I know there was once a B2 lefty made back in 05-06' IIRC, but I haven't been able to track it down...

Last and only place I've ever seen it:

http://www.guitarlefty.com/Blackmachine.htm


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## Fred the Shred (Apr 17, 2012)

FrancescoFiligoi said:


> I actually think the F8 is still available, don't know really...



Doug has it, yet it is not available.


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## engage757 (Apr 17, 2012)

MaxOfMetal said:


> That, on it's face, is totally fine. Though, it would be nice, and much less shady in my eyes, if it was stated plainly that it was an auction situation, and those offering money were told what the current highest bid is.
> 
> I guess I just think it would make all parties involved happier.




Agreed, as I am in communication with him about this one. Very difficult to get a straight answer.


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## Valennic (Apr 17, 2012)

It seems like none of you have seen the price Artinger's go for. 7.5k is sorta low midrange for one of his guitars.


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## Lewk (Apr 17, 2012)

A BM is not a rescue dog.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Apr 17, 2012)

Wat


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## poopyalligator (Apr 17, 2012)

MAJ Meadows SF said:


> This is similar to selling show dogs, special breed companion dogs, or military dogs (mine dogs, rescue dogs, etc). They don't belong just in any home. I used to raise and sell champion show line dogs, and I would screen prospective buyers. There were some people I would flat refuse to sell to regardless of money, and I've sold dogs to people for less because I truly felt they were the right fit for the animal. This creates PR and marketing, yes, but it favors the animal, the breed, and my business. I have many repeat buyers because of this and from the quality of dogs I raised and which ones were used for breeding.



I think there is a huge difference for checking up on somebody who is qualified enough to take care of the life on a living being, and a guitar. 

Dont get me wrong, I can kind of understand where he is coming from, and it is great that he can make that much money off of a guitar solely based on hype (and the fact that I am sure they are really quality instruments). However, I just think it is kind of in bad taste to sell a guitar like that. I think it shows a bit too much elitism for me. If you are looking for somebody to buy your stuff that has a somewhat big following and want people to see your product, then you should endorse them. Don't sell a guitar for more than you would normally charge just because they are hard to get. I know it is all about supply and demand, but I still think it is a bit messed up. That is just me though.


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## USMarine75 (Apr 17, 2012)

BTW I'd like to thank OP and all the contributors to this thread for officially crushing my Blackmachine dream.

And Max for crushing my spalt dream.

And Stealth for reminding me I'm still not a doctor yet... 

And Fred for reminding me how much better his playing is than mine...

And Fred for reminding me he owns a Blackmachine...

Next you'll tell me there's no Santa and that the female orgasm is actually real.

Booo... This thread sucks.


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## Danukenator (Apr 17, 2012)

poopyalligator said:


> Dont get me wrong, I can kind of understand where he is coming from, and it is great that he can make that much money off of a guitar solely based on hype (and the fact that I am sure they are really quality instruments). However, I just think it is kind of in bad taste to sell a guitar like that. I think it shows a bit too much elitism for me..



I think it issue is less elitism and more the just general shadiness of the whole thing. He COULD flat out say, I want the right price and the right player. If he made his intentions clear then this would be the general idea. There are lots of possibility. He could be out for the most money, the best endorsement, the best fit or the best of all three. If it's a flat put auction, you should say that.


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## Rap Hat (Apr 17, 2012)

While I understand wanting your builds to go to the right player, I highly doubt Doug isn't utilizing the mysticism for brand exclusivity. By creating this superelite "only the best, handpicked players will ever own a BM (p.s. I don't want them being sold used*)" he can command exorbitant prices and have a guaranteed source of income, while sidestepping the issues that small builders often face. It's not something I jive with personally (a guitar is a guitar is a guitar - some are built better, but you hit the law of diminishing returns and confirmation bias at some point), but I won't fault him for doing this. If you could say "I built a guitar" and have hundreds of people offering $10,000 or more with just those words, wouldn't you?

*The whole pushing for people that won't resell thing that was mentioned here is pretty goddamn clever. This has been the biggest challenge in practically every industry with a secondhand market, so by selecting buyers he thinks won't resell he can nurture that aura of desirability while keeping himself as the sole point of purchase. As shown here, there are tons of people who would kill to buy one used, but if no one is selling then they either give up or go straight to the source!


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## Lorcan Ward (Apr 17, 2012)

I would be afraid to play a guitar worth more than $7,500/&#8364;5700.

This B7 will go to someone in the queue, Doug was offered a lot for the last B2 but he still gave it someone who was on the queue. 

Every BM thread lately breaks down to arguing. Its becoming a sensitive topic on this forum.

Did Doug let any passer by play his guitars at musikmesse?


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## Santuzzo (Apr 17, 2012)

All I want to say is I LOVE those BM headstocks 
Probably the nicest headstocks out there IMO.


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## FrancescoFiligoi (Apr 17, 2012)

drawnacrol said:


> I would be afraid to play a guitar worth more than $7,500/&#8364;5700.
> 
> This B7 will go to someone in the queue, Doug was offered a lot for the last B2 but he still gave it someone who was on the queue.
> 
> ...



I wasn't in the queue dude!

Btw, yes, Doug let anyone play his guitars at the Messe, paying attention to everyone's playing. I remember he was surprised with a very young guitarist and asked more infos about him.


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## Lorcan Ward (Apr 17, 2012)

FrancescoFiligoi said:


> I wasn't in the queue dude!
> 
> Btw, yes, Doug let anyone play his guitars at the Messe, paying attention to everyone's playing. I remember he was surprised with a very young guitarist and asked more infos about him.



My bad! I meant to say a B6 went to someone who had been in contact with him for a few years.


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## technomancer (Apr 17, 2012)

Valennic said:


> It seems like none of you have seen the price Artinger's go for. 7.5k is sorta low midrange for one of his guitars.



Artingers are also not simple solid body guitars  That is not a slam on Doug, just a statement of fact regarding hollow body vs solid body construction.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Apr 17, 2012)

Yeah semi-hollow builders seem to command a lot more and acoustic builders like Smolgi are just crazy


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## iRaiseTheDead (Apr 17, 2012)

Sounds so good


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## Andrew11 (Apr 17, 2012)

I am such a big believer in running your business your way and as long as its legal do what ever the hell you want. After all Doug dosn't even have to sell them, so if he wants to choose the owner, for whatever reason thats up to him.

I don't think (and I could be wrong) he's trying to find the best player or someone who's going to plaster it all over youtube but maybe for someone who's shares his passion and love for guitars and who looks at it more then just a tool.

Word does travel fast, so if he is playing some shady game, people will get wise and a great reputation can be gone as fast as it arrived. Don't think it will ever happen personally.

PS. Fred, thanks again for an awesome video, never get sick of seeing you play.


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## Hollowway (Apr 17, 2012)

MWM seeks NGD
Me: Married white guy "weekend warrior" type enjoys long walks on the beach, lots of strings, and a good price to playability ratio on his guitars.

You: Not a Blackmachine (apparently).


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## elq (Apr 17, 2012)

Hollowway said:


> MWM seeks NGD
> Me: Married white guy "weekend warrior" type enjoys long walks on the beach, lots of strings, and a good price to playability ratio on his guitars.
> 
> You: Not a Blackmachine (apparently).





And the fact that, despite that I have lots of money available for my hobby and being a good customer of several luthiers, Doug never responded to a single message from me. His lack of response combined with him wanting to have the "chosen few" buy his guitars means that I'll never ever attempt to deal with him again.


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## sakeido (Apr 17, 2012)

wow did I ever miss my chance to get one of these. 

oh well.

the mystique and rarity is their best quality. you can get guitars equally as good from a lot of different people.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Apr 17, 2012)

elq said:


> And the fact that, despite that I have lots of money available for my hobby and being a good customer of several luthiers, Doug never responded to a single message from me. His lack of response combined with him wanting to have the "chosen few" buy his guitars means that I'll never ever attempt to deal with him again.



Ive sent him a few emails before and hes replied everytime. Maybe his emai accidently marked you as spam


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## sakeido (Apr 17, 2012)

elq said:


> And the fact that, despite that I have lots of money available for my hobby and being a good customer of several luthiers, Doug never responded to a single message from me. His lack of response combined with him wanting to have the "chosen few" buy his guitars means that I'll never ever attempt to deal with him again.



ahh missed this post.

I had a spot to get a guitar made prolly 2-3 years ago now, had a significant chunk of money with him, heard from him less than half a dozen times. never even had an ETA or quote on how much the guitar would actually cost me and I think he had my cash for 10 months maybe? a couple ppl defending him made him sound like a bizarro hermit so I pictured him as a gollum type creature who pulled driftwood out of exotic bogs before retreating to a shadowy cave/basement to turn those lumps of petrified wood into guitars 

said F it, bailed, sold my spot to somebody else. regret it because I took the cash from the BM and put it towards a Sherman instead.


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## Valennic (Apr 17, 2012)

technomancer said:


> Artingers are also not simple solid body guitars  That is not a slam on Doug, just a statement of fact regarding hollow body vs solid body construction.



Even Matt's solid bodies go for that much. I know that his semi's hit the 12k price point pretty easy, but I was actually talking about his solid body guitars. Your point is still pretty valid in either case. 



Stealthdjentstic said:


> Ive sent him a few emails before and hes replied everytime. Maybe his emai accidently marked you as spam



Yeah, "accidentally"


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## toiletstand (Apr 17, 2012)

Doug sounds like the kind of guy that wants his guitars to go to the right person and not someone who will just throw their piles of cash at him. Totally respect that!


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## JP Universe (Apr 17, 2012)

O/T - I seen some Artinger semi hollows recently on the bay for 3k........ Nearly pulled the trigger lol

I dunno, I'd rather have a used PRS, Parker, EBMM, Custom Siggery and a Strandberg > BM....


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## leonardo7 (Apr 17, 2012)

Part of me thinks that Doug prefers these guitars don't go the the US 

Im sure he's picky who the guitars go to and I fully respect that to the fullest degree. Its a win win for him. Either it goes to someone who will help his branding, or he has someone willing to offer him a ton of cash immediately to which he seems to always say that there's been "an offer for more" then responds with "Im waiting for them to confirm" which either guarantees it goes to the guy he wants it to go to, or it buys more time for the so called bid to grow 

There's got to be one main reason why he puts up guitars onto the available section of his website though cause we all know he can sell the guitars without putting them up on his site. 

What do I do start sending him photos like these of us playing to a packed house at the Regency Grand Ballroom in SF? I can start sending photos of us in front of moderate sized crowds all day long


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## Stealthdjentstic (Apr 17, 2012)

^ Has mayones endorsement: Needs more customs anyways


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## toiletstand (Apr 17, 2012)

its possible that the people on the waiting list have been on there for years. maybe the people in line dont have the money together or its not one they are interested in?


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## Hollowway (Apr 17, 2012)

leonardo7 said:


> What do I do start sending him photos like these of us playing to a packed house at the Regency Grand Ballroom in SF?



Cool. I didn't realize you were right in my backyard. Ima have to come check out a show sometime.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Apr 17, 2012)

Dont go to his café, he pooped in my food before >:|


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## Hollowway (Apr 17, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> Dont go to his café, he pooped in my food before >:|



AKA Urban banning.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 18, 2012)

sakeido said:


> regret it because I took the cash from the BM and put it towards a Sherman instead.



From the frying pan and into the fire eh?


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## djpharoah (Apr 18, 2012)

These guitars are really supposed to be played so I guess I see the point.


.


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## leonardo7 (Apr 18, 2012)

Hollowway said:


> Cool. I didn't realize you were right in my backyard. Ima have to come check out a show sometime.



I will let you know. It would be awesome to have you come check us out sometime 




Stealthdjentstic said:


> Dont go to his café, he pooped in my food before >:|


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## TemjinStrife (Apr 18, 2012)

Now Doug needs to get in touch with Dumble for the ultimate Wes Montgomery/Robben Ford tone.

They'll make millions.


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## Solodini (Apr 18, 2012)

I can appreciate what may be Doug's intention to give someone a guitar which is really right for them but without coming out and saying so, he plays a dangerous game with his reputation. It's like going to a nice bar, ordering an Ardbeg Blasda and the barman saying "No." Or saying "I've seen you in here before. I don't think you'll enjoy that; try this instead." One turns you off and makes you think they're being a dick because they can, the other seems like they're trying to help you so you don't waste a relatively large amount of money on something which won't blow your mind. 

His reputation seems well earned, from what owners say, but with the amount of fuss in this thread and and from what Elq had said, a lot of people could be very annoyed by the lack of transparency, or may just not think it's worth the hassle when they can spec a similar guitar based on specs they know they like.


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## Quitty (Apr 18, 2012)

It's a pretty nasty thing to say in context, but does anyone remember I Am Rich?

I don't know if he does it intentionally or out of some bizarre concern for his reputation, but he's selling to a very niche market - and the limited ability and arbitrary business decisions only serve to enhance that.
I'm not talking specifically about you, Fred, or any other owner here - but i have a feeling not everyone shares the same appreciation for something that plays music.

Personally, i don't think that's appropriate or appealing in any way.
I also keep thinking that if we'd be seeing that many more Blackmachines out there then someone would be out to say he actually likes another brand better - but with the current state of matters, that's just not very likely, is it?


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## petereanima (Apr 18, 2012)

After having read all of the comments, I can get Doug's point a bit more...see, that happens when you don't follow something closely for 2-3 years or so - last time I checked, the gutiars were built upon order, on customer requested specs, and went for - I dont know by heart exactly: 4k or so? (GBP, that is). And a 2 year waiting list or so. Last fact was actually what it killed for me back then - I mean good thing takes a while, no doubt. And money wouldnt have been the problem, but I simply didnt want to wait over a year...

Next time I read something about blackmachines, I see twice the price, and a "only for the chosen ones"-policy...which led me to my prior statement. It makes a bit more sense now that I know, that he just builds the guitars HE wants and then sells it to whomever he wants. Much more fine for me than my prior thought that this was the procedure to get a build spot or something haha...

Good thing btw, I didnt order one back then - meanwhile my preferences have changed so much, I think I wouldnt even get along with the guitar anymore. 

But even IF - to be honest, I don't tihnk I'd play it live. I tend to go apeshit on stage, and I could not handle that this beautiful and expensive thing gets scratches and cuts...on my  900,- Schecters - I don't care too much about some dings and dongs. "scars from war", these are. Proudly worn.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Apr 18, 2012)

Yeah, it would probabllly get stolen anyways


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## petereanima (Apr 18, 2012)

Nah man - over here, no one even knows that this thing is worth seomthing.  "WUT, NO GIBSON? U CHEAP?"


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## midian (Apr 18, 2012)

djpharoah said:


> These guitars are really supposed to be played so I guess I see the point.
> 
> 
> .


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## HighGain510 (Apr 18, 2012)

I guess if nothing else, I should feel fortunate that there is such a large list of popular luthiers who put out great products that don't have requirements for buyers beyond being able to pay them the required amount for a build.  If Ron was choosing to only sell Thorns to guys selling out shows, I'd be screwed and would never know the goodness that is a Thorn guitar.   Ah well, I can't complain, at least I got to spend an afternoon with Misha's B2. I'll say it again, that guitar was pretty awesome IMO. If I could swing one in the same range as I could for a Thorn, I'd likely own one as well.... assuming the whole "chosen one" issue didn't apply here, of course.


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## Quinny (Apr 18, 2012)

HighGain510 said:


> Whatever it is, someone, somewhere, is angry about it and has internet access.


Ain't that the truth! 

Weird really.....lot of mention of 'underhand' or 'sneaky' and the like.....seems a lot of folk kinda think Doug somehow owes them something in the way he runs his business. Quite bizarre, but pretty funny at times too.

Sorry for the derail - I'm sure someone, somewhere is prep'ing internet access and will get us back on track momentarily.


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## HighGain510 (Apr 18, 2012)

Quinny said:


> Ain't that the truth!
> 
> Weird really.....lot of mention of 'underhand' or 'sneaky' and the like.....seems a lot of folk kinda think Doug somehow owes them something in the way he runs his business. Quite bizarre, but pretty funny at times too.
> 
> Sorry for the derail - I'm sure someone, somewhere is prep'ing internet access and will get us back on track momentarily.



That sneaky bastard never sold me a guitar!!!


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## themike (Apr 18, 2012)

Anyone looking for a Blackmachine should check out the new homepage - you can even spec out a guitar for a quote!

Hand Built in England


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## loktide (Apr 18, 2012)

th3m1ke said:


> Anyone looking for a Blackmachine should check out the new homepage - you can even spec out a guitar for a quote!
> 
> Hand Built in England



i see what you did there


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## Andromalia (Apr 18, 2012)

I'd be curious to know how many guitars he actually sold, because the internet noise/guitar ratio looks to be awfully high. ^^


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## sakeido (Apr 18, 2012)

MaxOfMetal said:


> From the frying pan and into the fire eh?


well, its almost done and has been for a few years. if Mike ever actually puts the clearcoat on it, it'd be an absolutely gorgeous guitar.. I don't even need him to install all the hardware, there is a local guy who'd do a great job of it


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## Stealthdjentstic (Apr 18, 2012)

He's too busy posting pic stories of himself getting shitfaced with chris


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## vampiregenocide (Apr 18, 2012)

I guess if you don't make a lot of guitars every year, you want to make sure that the people who get them are going to be people who will play them and use them as they were meant to be used, and not just keeping them for a recording bedroom project. That being said, if you're willing to throw down several grand for a guitar, it's likely you aren't in the latter.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 18, 2012)

vampiregenocide said:


> I guess if you don't make a lot of guitars every year, you want to make sure that the people who get them are going to be people who will play them and use them as they were meant to be used, and not just keeping them for a recording bedroom project. That being said, if you're willing to throw down several grand for a guitar, it's likely you aren't in the latter.



Actually, most high-end/boutique gear is used by hobbyists/week end warriors, opposed to professional touring musicians. Then, those who are professionals (as in get paid to play/make music) who do own a lot of high-end/boutique/custom gear usually leave it in the studio where it can't be harmed/stolen as easily.


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## HighGain510 (Apr 18, 2012)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Actually, most high-end/boutique gear is used by hobbyists/week end warriors, opposed to professional touring musicians. Then, those who are professionals (as in get paid to play/make music) who do own a lot of high-end/boutique/custom gear usually leave it in the studio where it can't be harmed/stolen as easily.



Yeah the logic there seems backwards... you don't want it to go to someone who is just playing as a hobbyist but a lot of the gents who get them don't let them leave their studios.  Rightly so, lots of folks would be heartbroken if they dropped $5K+ on a BM and then took it on tour only to have it stolen from them.  Doesn't change the fact that it isn't leaving the owner's home/studio. 

Also Mesh... I lol'd.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Apr 18, 2012)

"Tried to remortgage house"


"wasnt enough to buy a blackmachine"


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## MAJ Meadows SF (Apr 18, 2012)

poopyalligator said:


> I think there is a huge difference for checking up on somebody who is qualified enough to take care of the life on a living being, and a guitar.



Yeah I know it's literally not a great comparison, but I am just painting a relevant perspective on principle behind a personal passion. When there is a certain level of effort, pride, whatever, that goes into a particular passion, a person can be picky about who they sell to and why. It's all about keeping a standard and integrity for a business, and not so much about the actual economics of it. I feel it's a personal right, like it or not, and certainly not always fair. There's more to it than a background check, and in the case of the guitar it goes into the art of music, and how the builder contributes to it. I guess it's hard to explain, and what I'm not getting at is that I wouldn't sell a dog to Paris Hilton like Doug wouldn't sell a guitar to a session player for Lady Gaga (although those are easily true statements). Eh, passions are passions and at the end of the day BM are unique instruments in many ways, and it will be interesting to see how things go in the future.

It's just a personal choice based on factors only the business owner really feels and understands best. I wouldn't harp on this so much; some get it, some don't, and that's ok. I really do hope to see this B7 in the hands of someone in this forum, or joins SS.org, so we can enjoy the ear and eye pornz. Same with that unreal F8.


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## Fred the Shred (Apr 18, 2012)

FWIW, my B7 is gigged often, and I don't fear my guitars being stolen on the road, as they are with me at all times (I kid you not). These were indeed meant to be played, and they shine live - while I totally understand the people who want to stick to their treasured instruments for studio work, I will take mine on the road as long as I can hold on to them and have stuff under control.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Apr 18, 2012)

You're crazy Fred, my Vik wont be leaving my house ever.


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## Fred the Shred (Apr 18, 2012)

Like Felix's Vik that has been tested live already?  Needless to say, this implies you making sure you cling to the axes at all times, etc., but considering the security I've had so far or how in control of what goes on I am, I don't fret too much - on gigs like "Chaotic Festival Of Lord Knows WTF Is Going On" I do not take any of the faves along.


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## Hollowway (Apr 18, 2012)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Actually, most high-end/boutique gear is used by hobbyists/week end warriors, opposed to professional touring musicians. Then, those who are professionals (as in get paid to play/make music) who do own a lot of high-end/boutique/custom gear usually leave it in the studio where it can't be harmed/stolen as easily.



Yup. The sad reality of music (and the arts in general). I know this successful business guy (a friend of a friend) that collects guitars, has about 15, and doesn't even know how to play.


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## got_tone (Apr 18, 2012)

haha- you "did her live"?!
love it


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## Fred the Shred (Apr 18, 2012)

got_tone said:


> haha- you "did her live"?!
> love it



And she liked it! Attention whore!


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## Stealthdjentstic (Apr 18, 2012)

Fred, I would probably do something stupid like forget to use straplocks and end up with a destroyed guitar


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## mikernaut (Apr 18, 2012)

Matt should be able to buy whatever he wants cuz his avatar is soo awesome


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## sakeido (Apr 18, 2012)

i don't get why you'd ever take a nice guitar on the road unless its to stroke your own ego.

my $4k suhr sits at home always and is never gigged. I take my MIJ Jacksons to shows.. they were <$1k each new, but then I got a top dollar setup done so now they play equally as well as suhr. the tone is not totally the same but live the guitar is one of the smallest factors in how you are going to sound. amp, cab, and the sound guy play way more of a role. who knows tho maybe if he recognized the blackmachine, he'd put a bit more effort into setting you up so he can hear it sing. 

why risk an expensive custom instrument when a normal guitar gets the job done just as well? its impossible to really say tho. I spend so much time playing my Jacksons I have way more of an emotional attachment to them than I do to my suhr.


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## SirMyghin (Apr 18, 2012)

sakeido said:


> i don't get why you'd ever take a nice guitar on the road unless its to stroke your own ego.



To contrast that, why would you ever buy a guitar you are afraid to take outside your home? Now, I don't currently gig, but the value of my instrument has never made me say 'well, I guess this is too nice to take outside the house and use'. They are instruments, tool, value regardless you bring your favourite tools with you when you go to put on a great show. It is not an ego thing in the slightest, it is about bringing your best, and whatever makes that possible.

Guitars are replaceable, results are not.


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## TemjinStrife (Apr 18, 2012)

I gig with every instrument I own, from a $2000 cello and $2000 Dingwall to a $100 Squier '51.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Apr 18, 2012)

TemjinStrife said:


> I gig with every instrument I own, from a $2000 cello and $2000 Dingwall to a $100 Squier '51.



Don't you transit everywhere? I'm so incredibly paranoid of smashing the headstock somehow whenever I leave the house with a guitar. It's just kind of nice being wayyy less stressed knowing that if my $200 ibanez ends up with a fucked neck I can buy one off here/ebay/CL for like 100 bucks and have it working as good as new...whereas if I fucked up something even like my Loomis I'd be screwed because it's set neck.

Maybe you guys just don't get really stressed over things that probably wont happen anyways


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## USMarine75 (Apr 18, 2012)

Depends on sentimental attachment and replaceability... 

eg.

I would tour with an EVH guitar, but not a 1997 Peavey Wolfgang Standard quilt top...

I would tour with an EBMM JPX, but not a 90's Ibanez JPM...

I would tour with a Blackmachine B7... no, wait... no I wouldn't... because I'll never own one...


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## themike (Apr 18, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> Don't you transit everywhere? I'm so incredibly paranoid of smashing the headstock somehow whenever I leave the house with a guitar. It's just kind of nice being wayyy less stressed knowing that if my $200 ibanez ends up with a fucked neck I can buy one off here/ebay/CL for like 100 bucks and have it working as good as new...whereas if I fucked up something even like my Loomis I'd be screwed because it's set neck.
> 
> Maybe you guys just don't get really stressed over things that probably wont happen anyways


 
Uh - Hardshell cases?


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## Fred the Shred (Apr 18, 2012)

sakeido said:


> i don't get why you'd ever take a nice guitar on the road unless its to stroke your own ego.



Or maybe, just MAYBE I prefer to, you know, get the tone I like from the instruments I like. I don't need to "stroke my own ego" with guitars of any description, thank you.


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## JoeyBTL (Apr 18, 2012)

If I spent that much on a guitar I would damn sure want to play the best one I have at shows. Sure I'd be afraid of something happening but my favorite guitar makes me want to play even better so I could only imagine how good it would feel to play a black machine all the time. 

Anyone remember the video of that famous violinist playing in the subway or whatever as a bum. Wasn't his violin worth 7 figures? If it was then things could have gone very wrong playing around random people like that but I bet he chose to play that one for a reason, not just because of how much it costs.


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## JaeSwift (Apr 18, 2012)

Funny enough I used Black Machine as an example in my Brand Management minor. He did (and is doing) a great job with his brand, he deserves whatever he can get for that guitar.


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## Xaios (Apr 18, 2012)

Made this for the meme thread a while back:


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## Hollowway (Apr 18, 2012)

Yeah, all joking aside, I think it's awesome that Doug can get that much for his guitars. People will pay thousands of dollars for a fancy wood chair, why not a guitar? No reason guitars shouldn't command a high value. Even if I won't pay it.


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## JP Universe (Apr 18, 2012)

USMarine75 said:


> Depends on sentimental attachment and replaceability...
> 
> eg.
> 
> ...


 
This


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## sakeido (Apr 19, 2012)

Fred the Shred said:


> Or maybe, just MAYBE I prefer to, you know, get the tone I like from the instruments I like. I don't need to "stroke my own ego" with guitars of any description, thank you.


you can get the tone you like from a lot of different instruments because it has more to do with the player than the axe. you playing a guitar with similar body woods to the BM with the same pickups will sound so close to the blackmachine it makes no difference. your audience sure as hell won't be able to tell. if you need to play an extremely expensive and irreplacable instrument live just so you can put on the best possible show... 



SirMyghin said:


> To contrast that, why would you ever buy a guitar you are afraid to take outside your home? Now, I don't currently gig, but the value of my instrument has never made me say 'well, I guess this is too nice to take outside the house and use'. They are instruments, tool, value regardless you bring your favourite tools with you when you go to put on a great show. It is not an ego thing in the slightest, it is about bringing your best, and whatever makes that possible.
> 
> Guitars are replaceable, results are not.


its a tool I use for recording, when the emphasis is on tone and I have the tools I need to bring out the right character in a guitar for a song. live, when the sound is pretty much a crapshoot and its more about the performance anyway? I'd rather take a guitar that sounds close enough and is light on my shoulders.



JoeyBTL said:


> If I spent that much on a guitar I would damn sure want to play the best one I have at shows. Sure I'd be afraid of something happening but my favorite guitar makes me want to play even better so I could only imagine how good it would feel to play a black machine all the time.
> 
> Anyone remember the video of that famous violinist playing in the subway or whatever as a bum. Wasn't his violin worth 7 figures? If it was then things could have gone very wrong playing around random people like that but I bet he chose to play that one for a reason, not just because of how much it costs.


there was a big article that went along with that video. They put that guy in the subway with that violin to see if anybody would recognize he was playing one of the world's most valuable instruments (nobody did) or that he was one of the world's premier violinists (no luck there either). Maybe a guy as talented as him on such a nice instrument would make more than an average busker or at least get an crowd of people watching? Nope.


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## Randy (Apr 19, 2012)

The mood and mojo of playing is just important to some people as the tone and specs of the guitar they're playing. You can copy the wood, you can copy the dimensions but you can't exactly copy the mojo. That's a component that's important to some people more than others.


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## sakeido (Apr 19, 2012)

Randy said:


> The mood and mojo of playing is just important to some people as the tone and specs of the guitar they're playing. You can copy the wood, you can copy the dimensions but you can't exactly copy the mojo. That's a component that's important to some people more than others.



if your technique is so developed you can shred like crazy and put out a bunch of instrumentals featuring your playing, I don't think mojo should be a problem


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## Danukenator (Apr 19, 2012)

sakeido said:


> you can get the tone you like from a lot of different instruments because it has more to do with the player than the axe. you playing a guitar with similar body woods to the BM with the same pickups will sound so close to the blackmachine it makes no difference. your audience sure as hell won't be able to tell. if you need to play an extremely expensive and irreplacable instrument live just so you can put on the best possible show...



You hit the nail on the head with every point, but in regards to this, I was going to make picture of "Watch Out, We've got Eric Johnson over here." 

It is true that in a live setting there are a thousand more factors. I love being as close to the stage as possible, so I hear very little of the full mix.

Unless your dead center near the sound guy, it will always sound a little off.

The guitar's actual tone will become much less important. Provided you had two guitars that are the same in specs. For example A Suhr with the same woods as a Fender. There won't be much of a difference. Provided both had a pro setup, they won't feel miles appart.

Take that example in the studio, it will be a different story.

I guess if people want to risk taking a really valuable insturment on the road because it has more mojo rolleyes then that's up to them.

I will grant that if you are doing smaller clinics or such, as I've seen Fred do, I would believe the difference is more notable. At a small clinic it is also less likely to get nabbed/damaged. So, I suppose it is all about the scale of where you are playing.

EDIT: To clarify the mojo eyeroll, as people see to have taken it as some sort of personal attack, I dislike the term mojo along with similar terms or phrases like "fast neck". They are indefinable or very personal things that aren't clear to people that haven't heard or felt the same thing. I wasn't denying there was something special about the guitar nor saying a guitar couldn't have some quality that just made it the bomb. I was trying to express my dislike for the term itself, admittedly this was a case of me thinking something but not expressing it in writing. I apologize if I offended someone or appeared condesending.


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## Randy (Apr 19, 2012)

Danukenator said:


> mojo rolleyes



I used to play in a regional touring band and what guitar I just liked playing more totally topped my list of what I brought with me when I played. So, with all due respect, fuck your smugness and go roll your eyes at someone else.

The whole thread has drifted so far off topic and so personal that I'm about one annoying post away from locking this down and handing out a few bans.


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## 0 Xero 0 (Apr 19, 2012)

Regardless of mojo or differences in timbre between instruments, I'm pretty sure Fred, Nolly, Pin, Dez, Leah, or any other people who play BMs live do it to satisfy their egos. They play the guitars because they like them and those are their choices. If you can convince me that every single one of the people who play BMs live do it to stroke their egos, especially considering most people who play BMs play some form of metal which isn't mainstream and doesn't get much exposure (i.e. less ego-stroking possibilities than playing pop or rock), be my guest. 

Example - Suppose you excavate lawns to allow people to install swimming pools. You could use a spade or a shovel. Both of these tools would get the job done equally well. The spade would take an immense amount of time and the shovel would still take a while. Or, you could use a backhoe or a trackhoe. The tractors are better tools for the job because it saves time and accomplishes the same task. If the players I mentioned choose to use a Blackmachine live, they probably do so because it will accomplish the task they need better than "X" guitar.


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## narad (Apr 19, 2012)

0 Xero 0 said:


> Example - Suppose you excavate lawns to allow people to install swimming pools. You could use a spade or a shovel. Both of these tools would get the job done equally well. The spade would take an immense amount of time and the shovel would still take a while. Or, you could use a backhoe or a trackhoe. The tractors are better tools for the job because it saves time and accomplishes the same task. If the players I mentioned choose to use a Blackmachine live, they probably do so because it will accomplish the task they need better than "X" guitar.



Ha, this analogy is about as illuminating as a shovel, spade, or backhoe.


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## SirMyghin (Apr 19, 2012)

sakeido said:


> if your technique is so developed you can shred like crazy and put out a bunch of instrumentals featuring your playing, I don't think mojo should be a problem



That is a pretty silly thing to say. The last guitar I purchased, I didn't even plug in. I didn't have to. When I held it and played it, unplugged (to make sure I was focusing on the guitar itself), it was time to put the dollars down regardless of the pickups. It was there, you can't say that for every instrument around. Skills are quite irrelevant. There are many comfortable chairs in the world, and many different types of beds. Why not go with the most comfortable, the most suitable TO YOU, every time? 

You get used to your tools, and you bond with them heavily. You mentioned a strong emotional attachment to your jap jacksons, that plays a factor. You aren't going to put down the instrument you wrote and recorded everything on, which makes it most comfortable for this work, just because it is expensive and you are being a wimp worried about it getting damaged. Scars tell stories, every instrument should have some. They are tools, not museum pieces, regardless of price or spec. 

Why continue to make BS excuses because you are afraid to get a dent or a scratch? Just admit that part and move on. If a guitar doesn't have at least one dent, it hasn't been given enough air. Better bubble wrap them even playing at home, just to be safe.


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## Quitty (Apr 19, 2012)

Fred the Shred said:


> Or maybe, just MAYBE I prefer to, you know, get the tone I like from the instruments I like. I don't need to "stroke my own ego" with guitars of any description, thank you.


I understand your resentment, but you have to admit there's something to it.
I understand that you seem to feel more confident with your gear than other musicians i've met, or the occasional layman that imagines being on tour (and i envy you for that) - 
but for someone who invests this amount of money into an instrument, i'd be scared too. 
Even if they are meant to be played, do you really think these guitars are priced to be played? Does their availability encourage bringing them up on shows?
If you crack your Blackmachine's headstock or have it stolen, might i assume there's a good chance you'll get another?
And pay for it, of course - but at the end of the day, have a Blackmachine?




Randy said:


> The whole thread has drifted so far off topic and so personal that I'm about one annoying post away from locking this down and handing out a few bans.


That seems a bit much... using catch-phrases like 'mojo' will usually bring about the occasional ass that thinks you're practicing tai-chi on stage.
Regardless, yours is the only point i can actually empathize with. It just takes a great amount of balls to bring onstage something you'll probably never have a replacement for.


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## UnderTheSign (Apr 19, 2012)

Well, this just in, from now on everyone in big bands, orchestras, ensembles or whatever other form of musical group should only play cheaper, less valuable instruments because they'll sound the same anyway.
Yes dear Stradivarius players, that means your precious violin should only be used for bedroom heroism - the audience won't notice anyway, and you definitely won't feel the difference because there is no mojo, just a well set-up instrument.


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## Necris (Apr 19, 2012)

I personally can think of plenty of ways to "stroke my own ego" that don't require a $4000+ guitar to be put in harms way so I doubt ego stroking has much to do with choosing to take an expensive instrument on tour.
If I spend the money to buy the best and most well made tool to suit my needs, it's going to be used frequently for the jobs it was created to do not sit on a shelf/wall-hanger/in a case while I use other similar tools that are almost as good since it's a waste of my money.


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## 0 Xero 0 (Apr 19, 2012)

narad said:


> Ha, this analogy is about as illuminating as a shovel, spade, or backhoe.



Edit: UnderTheSign beat me to the Stradivarius comment. Yo-Yo Ma will be so sad to hear this...


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 19, 2012)

Randy said:


> The mood and mojo of playing is just important to some people as the tone and specs of the guitar they're playing. You can copy the wood, you can copy the dimensions but you can't exactly copy the mojo. That's a component that's important to some people more than others.



Agreed. And why wouldn't you play what you want live just as you would at home? Once the $$$ exchanges hands and I have the guitar its monetary value is no longer a thought in my mind, thus to play it vs any cheaper axe in my arsenal is really of no consequence. It's more about playing the axe I feel like playing. The only way I could possibly see it being about ego is if you left the price tag on the guitar. The people in the crowd probably already assume your guitar is expensive anyway... That or they don't care.


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## USMarine75 (Apr 19, 2012)

I'll bet BB King disagrees with keeping your precious at home... pretty sure Lucille goes everywhere with him... And Lenny was always with SRV...

If Doug gives me that B7 I promise to take it on the road with me... and by that I mean to go see Fred so he can properly shred the fuck out of it. Hell, I'd even let Max shoot me in the ballbag with his mini canon if Doug would put me on the list for a 2016 run.


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## sakeido (Apr 19, 2012)

UnderTheSign said:


> Well, this just in, from now on everyone in big bands, orchestras, ensembles or whatever other form of musical group should only play cheaper, less valuable instruments because they'll sound the same anyway.
> Yes dear Stradivarius players, that means your precious violin should only be used for bedroom heroism - the audience won't notice anyway, and you definitely won't feel the difference because there is no mojo, just a well set-up instrument.



different environment. the audience is sitting down and sure as hell not getting roudy. live at a metal show? you only need one crazy with a bottle and a half decent arm to smash the headstock off your guitar


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## Solodini (Apr 19, 2012)

While BMs are commonly used for metal, I'm sure they're good enough instruments to hold their own in other styles.


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 19, 2012)

With all due respect, I think most instruments are. They're just marketed with a particular image.


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## Fred the Shred (Apr 19, 2012)

Quitty said:


> I understand your resentment, but you have to admit there's something to it.
> I understand that you seem to feel more confident with your gear than other musicians i've met, or the occasional layman that imagines being on tour (and i envy you for that) -
> but for someone who invests this amount of money into an instrument, i'd be scared too.
> Even if they are meant to be played, do you really think these guitars are priced to be played? Does their availability encourage bringing them up on shows?
> ...



Shit may happen on tour. To a BM, to your rig, to your tour bus, and a plane might fall and I'll die (there's a very good chance the guitars die with me under those circumstances ). It is one thing to say that, in your opinion, it's too risky - it is up to each of us to draw the line, it is another to be arrogant enough to claim that one's reasoning supersedes all others just because you made an option.

Let me put it this way: I've been playing for about 20 years. Ever since I was playing for 3 years I was out on the road with bands, doing my thing, learning. My first real guitar on the road was a '68 Les Paul I scored not even knowing how much it was worth, and she's still alive and kicking, even after playing shitty venues, etc.. I have "damaged" the BM live, as the back cover was fragile and snapped (ebony is a tad brittle, as you know). Doug made me another one, simple as that.

I like to connect with whatever it is I'm using live, and I'm quite picky with guitars. Can I play with a POS 100$ Squier? Yes. Do I WANT to do it? No. Would I let any of my prized guitars in a tour bus. No. Even for the whole "cheap guitars live" debate, that's easy: I have none. Why would I keep stuff that is, comparatively speaking, inferior?

What I feel people don't get at times is that I am extremely keen on having everything the best I can to put on a kickass show. That will include, among many other factors, bringing whatever it is I find inspiring and will add something else to the show.

BTW, the one way to steal my BM or any other guitar is to shoot me, as they're with me at all times.




sakeido said:


> different environment. the audience is sitting down and sure as hell not getting roudy. live at a metal show? you only need one crazy with a bottle and a half decent arm to smash the headstock off your guitar



I have no idea what sort of conditions you debate for your gigs, but doing my thing at a place called "The Drunkards' Mosh Pit" is not likely to happen. Nor larger venues with no security, BM or not.


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## UnderTheSign (Apr 19, 2012)

sakeido said:


> different environment. the audience is sitting down and sure as hell not getting roudy. live at a metal show? you only need one crazy with a bottle and a half decent arm to smash the headstock off your guitar


See mate, I understand your concern, but you seem to worry too much. How often have you seen someone in the audience smash the band's gear? I realise not all of SSO is as clumsy as me, but I'd estimate the chance of accidentally damaging my guitar at home by bumping it into something, it slipping off your lap, whatever, to be much higher than that of a guitar getting fucked up on stage.


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## bulb (Apr 19, 2012)

sakeido said:


> different environment. the audience is sitting down and sure as hell not getting roudy. live at a metal show? you only need one crazy with a bottle and a half decent arm to smash the headstock off your guitar



Once upon a time you used to present somewhat decent arguments. That statement and your stance here is borderline trolling and/or sheer ignorance. By your logic you should only play beaters live since it won't make a difference, be my guest haha. In the last 3 or so years of touring, the only substantial damage a guitar of mine has suffered has been from airlines mishandling the cases. And the crowds can get pretty crazy at our shows. Good guitars aren't as fragile as you think.


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## Valennic (Apr 19, 2012)

bulb said:


> Once upon a time you used to present somewhat decent arguments. That statement and your stance here is borderline trolling and/or sheer ignorance. By your logic you should only play beaters live since it won't make a difference, be my guest haha. In the last 3 or so years of touring, the only substantial damage a guitar of mine has suffered has been from airlines mishandling the cases. And the crowds can get pretty crazy at our shows. Good guitars aren't as fragile as you think.





I'm sure theres a reason "quality" is why we pay so much for guitars. If it's not good enough to hold up to the stress of live play, or even bedroom play, its obviously not quality. They're not built to be babied.


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## Solodini (Apr 19, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> With all due respect, I think most instruments are. They're just marketed with a particular image.



Yeah, I was just meaning that not all crowds you'll play to with a BM will necessarily be reify, bottle-throwing metal heads.


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## sakeido (Apr 19, 2012)

bulb said:


> Once upon a time you used to present somewhat decent arguments. That statement and your stance here is borderline trolling and/or sheer ignorance. By your logic you should only play beaters live since it won't make a difference, be my guest haha. In the last 3 or so years of touring, the only substantial damage a guitar of mine has suffered has been from airlines mishandling the cases. And the crowds can get pretty crazy at our shows. Good guitars aren't as fragile as you think.


that post is not the crux of my argument, not by a longshot. somebody posted something irrelevant, I gave a response in the same vein applicable to that one post. I shoulda just said comparing metal to orchestral performances that have been an upper class form of high art for a few centuries is pointless. 

early blackmachines only cost a couple grand and he was making them on a regular basis. back then hell ya I'd consider gigging one of the early ones. now these things seem to be going for close to five figures and his output has dropped way off. most of the ones he makes these days are irreplacable because of really exotic wood choices. if something happens to the guitar you likely won't be able to just get another one.

you read all the time about guys' trailers getting jacked, gear getting smashed by airlines, guys walking off with guitars at gigs.. if your irreplacable guitar is with you, those are all risks. if it stays at home, they aren't.

people say you are playing a BM for quality - but you don't play exotic tops, nice body binding, and the wood grain of each laminate in the neck. you play a guitar. you buy a solid guitar to start with, which imo these days is anything around the $1200 price point, take it in to a tech. get him to do his damndest to set it up and rewire it. there ya go, that is a quality Instrument. it may not have the sheer aesthetic awesomeness of a blackmachine but it will be just as playable and durable. 

people say you are playing a BM for tone - been through this already, but live your guitar is a very small component of your tone. take that same solid starting point guitar and put good pickups in it, there ya go... close enough. your audience sure as hell isn't going to be able to tell. maybe if it was a true temperment guitar or something.. 

not many people have said playability yet. but again, I don't believe at all that a blackmachine is the only guitar that PLAYS the way it does. to me it felt like a subtle variation on a Jackson neck profile, with a really nice slim body that felt great on your picking arm. not a quality unique to a blackmachine by any means. 

if mojo comes into it, well... when i play live, we are well rehearsed and practiced up. there is no room for mojo there - mojo is not the core of any good performance, imo. the extra lil' somethin-somethin you get at a live show, that could be attributed to mojo, is going to come from the energy of the crowd and show.. not my guitar. so, my original comment that you'd only play a blackmachine like this live to stroke your own ego. if things are jumping I'm thinking "I'm lovin this crowd right now!" not "I'm so glad I get to play this priceless guitar in front of so many people who probably don't even know what it is!" 

in the end when I'm on the road I don't want to worrying about my $7,500 impossible to replace guitar when there is all the other shit you should be worrying about instead. I'd rather have a $1,000 guitar with a $200 setup and $200 set of pickups that I can pick up off a rack or order online and have an exact replacement for in less than a week. somebody jacked one of my Jacksons god damn, would I ever be devastated.. they are both the exact kind of guitar I'm talking about, but I love em. BUT the whole time I'd be crying about its loss, I would still have the thought in the back of my mind "at least it wasn't the Suhr"

*tl;dr* since to me my logic is immaculately solid when it comes to backing up one of my own opinions, I'm back full circle to my original post on the whole thing  which admittedly was written in my typical highly insensitive manner


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## Stealthdjentstic (Apr 19, 2012)

Its a personal thing guys, some people can afford to take their nice guitars out or arent paranoid and some people like me are so paranoid theres no chance in hell the guitar is going to a death metal show


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## FrancescoFiligoi (Apr 19, 2012)

Jesus, some of the comments in this (derailed) thread are just...I don't even...

As always, imho truth lies in the middle. Wanna take your precious mojo on stage? Up to you. Wanna take a very good instrument on stage, but keep the magic one in the studio? Up to you. 
Need to write decades of posts about "no you shouldn't/less you should"? Nope.

That being said, hope this amazing B7 goes to one of us, and whatever use he makes on stage or at home, I'm sure he will love it.


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## djpharoah (Apr 19, 2012)

Gonna lock this up for the time being as it's now getting off topic  and people are getting aggressive over a guitar most of us will never own.

Hopefully if one of us does get it they'll post a NGD on here but I believe the owner of the guitar has been or probably will be known to Doug soon.


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