# Kiesel Alternatives



## bigcupholder (Nov 9, 2020)

Hey everyone. I've been lurking here awhile and I joined the forum to get some feedback on alternatives to Kiesel since smaller builders seem a lot more popular here than on other forums.

I'm thinking of ordering a Kiesel DC600 or Vader on Black Friday but I wanted to see if there's any other brands/luthiers I should check out instead. It doesn't have to be a custom build, although I like the options. I currently have a 7 string Vader but I don't use the 7th string much so I'll probably be selling that shortly.

My specs/requirements in no particular order:
Cost ~$2k US
Hardtail bridge
Dual humbuckers
25.5" scale
Thin neck (not Ibanez thin, but Kiesel/Jackson/ESP thin)
14" radius or flatter fretboard
Jumbo stainless steel frets
Lightweight (ideally <7 lbs, due to shoulder issues)

What else should I consider?


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 9, 2020)

I don't think you're going to get closer than Kiesel.


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## Vegetta (Nov 9, 2020)

Balaguer Maybe? they have a shedload of options and the prices are not bad at all. I'm not sure if they have any black Friday deals or not tho.


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## budda (Nov 9, 2020)

Balaguer.


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## spudmunkey (Nov 9, 2020)

I would also say Balaguer is the closest thing I've seen on price an options, but if it matters to you, leadtime is 5-6 months, and for the comparible price, it's made in Asia. Not saying that's a bad thing: just a fact that some people care about.


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## Glades (Nov 9, 2020)

Balaguer will cost you more than Kiesel, and it’s all made in Korea. But they have some cool models


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## AltecGreen (Nov 9, 2020)

Some exotic suggestions


Etherial
https://www.etherialguitars.com/product-page/zatha-6


Dragonfly d-fly STA648 (2.6kg or 5.75 lbs.)
https://www.digimart.net/cat01/shop4840/DS06434160/


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## narad (Nov 9, 2020)

AltecGreen said:


> Some exotic suggestions
> 
> 
> Etherial
> ...



Though given Etherial's track record and some of the builds posted here, even a long-time Kiesel insulter like me would have to recommend them over Etherial.


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## MrWulf (Nov 9, 2020)

Why would you want to recommend anyone to Etherial? C'mon


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## Señor Voorhees (Nov 9, 2020)

Seeing as the Kiesel Vader was my all time favorite guitar, just get a sixer Vader. (since you have experience and seem to like them too.) Not even a huge Kiesel fan, but the Vader is far ahead the best guitar I've ever played, and I NEED to replace the one I was forced to sell two years ago.


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## Dayn (Nov 9, 2020)

MrWulf said:


> Why would you want to recommend anyone to Etherial? C'mon


It's very cruel. I had a glimmer of hope that maybe their cool designs are actually functional guitars now, but my hopes have been surgically dashed.


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## AltecGreen (Nov 9, 2020)

narad said:


> Though given Etherial's track record and some of the builds posted here, even a long-time Kiesel insulter like me would have to recommend them over Etherial.




I'm trying to make Kiesel look better.


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## Avedas (Nov 9, 2020)

The only Etherial I played physically assaulted me. The corner of the fretboard sliced right into my hand.


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## spudmunkey (Nov 9, 2020)

How is Halo these days?


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## Quiet Coil (Nov 9, 2020)

Warmoth? Assembled by yourself if you’re up to it or by a reputable local luthier (doesn’t have to be a builder, but wouldn’t hurt).


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Nov 10, 2020)

Quiet Coil said:


> Warmoth? Assembled by yourself if you’re up to it or by a reputable local luthier (doesn’t have to be a builder, but wouldn’t hurt).



As a former employee, and as a current tech who has assembled & set up dozens of Warmoth including a few of my own, I can attest to the quality and endless options.


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## A-Branger (Nov 10, 2020)

yup, just becasue tis warmoth doesnt mean you have to build another "strat". Just get a carved top soloist HH

or get a strat but with a HH config, no tone, volume out of the way. reversed ehadstock, some cool color/wood combo, something more "superstrat" Charvel-ish

but getting the parts and having a local luthier/tech to assemble it settup propertly ect could look in a way in the same ballpark as getting a good import guitar and having it settup propertly too (even re-finish).

so the question would be.... why you want a Kiesel-like shop?, since you want a HH hardtail 25.5" guitar that 90% of mayor brands build, whats the reason why you want it to get it made in a custom/semi-custom format?

special color/finish?, woods?, or the "one-off" uniquenes of it.... or the "import=bad" mentality?


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## MrWulf (Nov 10, 2020)

spudmunkey said:


> How is Halo these days?



somehow still alive and kicking


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## USMarine75 (Nov 10, 2020)

Are you looking to get a custom finish or materials? Otherwise why not a Wolfgang USA HT? Everything but the flat neck (I wouldn't call it fat, but it's not thin).


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## possumkiller (Nov 10, 2020)

Devries?


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## bigcupholder (Nov 10, 2020)

Thanks for the replies so far. To clarify, it doesn't need to be custom/semi-custom, but not many of the large guitar brands have stainless steel frets. I have other preferences I didn't list because they're not dealbreakers if the quality is better elsewhere, but they could tip the scales to Kiesel otherwise.



Glades said:


> Balaguer will cost you more than Kiesel, and it’s all made in Korea. But they have some cool models



I'm not too concerned with where it's made. How does the quality compare? Some of their models look nice.



Señor Voorhees said:


> Seeing as the Kiesel Vader was my all time favorite guitar, just get a sixer Vader. (since you have experience and seem to like them too.) Not even a huge Kiesel fan, but the Vader is far ahead the best guitar I've ever played, and I NEED to replace the one I was forced to sell two years ago.



Yeah the Vader is nice. I'm not 100% sold on the headless thing (I definitely find it harder to tune) but it's great to play at my desk when I'm recording without bashing the headstock on stuff.

Mine is brighter than I'd like, so I'd probably go all mahogany if I order one.



Quiet Coil said:


> Warmoth? Assembled by yourself if you’re up to it or by a reputable local luthier (doesn’t have to be a builder, but wouldn’t hurt).



I had a parts Tele for years with a Warmoth standard thin neck. I'd prefer a thinner flatter neck than that. Also their neck joints are huge and I'm finding I'm soloing up above the 15th fret now more than ever, so I think I'll pass on Warmoth this time.



USMarine75 said:


> Are you looking to get a custom finish or materials? Otherwise why not a Wolfgang USA HT? Everything but the flat neck (I wouldn't call it fat, but it's not thin).



I like the look of the Wolfgang but the specs I'm seeing say vintage frets. I'm going for medium jumbo or jumbo. And if the neck isn't thin/flat, that's a deal breaker for me. I find I always gravitate to the guitars in my collection with the necks I like the best. 

My favorite neck profiles in my current guitars are the Kiesel thinner neck profile (although it's hard to compare a 7 string) and my late-90's ESP Eclipse which has a thinner (bolt-on maple) neck than my 08 Eclipse.


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## mbardu (Nov 10, 2020)

If you do want something like a headless custom to your specs... a Kiesel in the ~1.5k ballpark is *very *hard to beat. And the "headless" aspect will certainly help the "lightweight" angle, especially if you go fixed bridge (the tremolo Kiesel Vaders are heavier because the hipshot block is *T H I C C*).

But if that's not a must for you, maybe try a couple of Schecters. Many options such as a Banshee Elite 6, a C-1 SLS Elite, a KM or an Apocalypse. Top specs, that indeed include stainless steel frets, excellent necks, great construction. They punch way above their weight and can be had below 800$ if you don't mind second hand. Weight is variable, but I'm sure you can find some below 8 pounds.

Balaguer is an option but more expensive and a bit of an unknown IMO. There's not a ton of their guitars in the wild or reviews out there, so be cautious.

Oh btw, if you don't mind non-custom and SK-made, there are a bunch of other brands now offering small run series made in the typical good SK shops. Often with interesting quirks. I'm thinking things like Jericho or Sully Conspiracy for example.


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## ikarus (Nov 10, 2020)

If you go for the Kiesel make sure that you dont select options that makes it non returnable...


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## USMarine75 (Nov 11, 2020)

bigcupholder said:


> Thanks for the replies so far. To clarify, it doesn't need to be custom/semi-custom, but not many of the large guitar brands have stainless steel frets. I have other preferences I didn't list because they're not dealbreakers if the quality is better elsewhere, but they could tip the scales to Kiesel otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The neck is definitely thicker so if that’s a deal breaker then I’d avoid. I forgot my USA has vintage frets lol. I only brought a MIJ Special with me and it has jumbo SS instead.


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## Hoss632 (Nov 11, 2020)

I've heard nothing but good things about balaguer guitars. Though they are still more expensive even with the most basic of options than kiesel it seems. And they are built in a factory overseas vs state side. And it takes longer to get the instrument than you would with Kiesel. So Kiesel may still be your best bet. If you went Kiesel again I saw the DC600 was one of the guitars you'd consider. Could also do a neck-thru aries as well if neck-thru is really what you prefer. One of those either all mahogany or all black limba could give you the warmth you want. I personally on a neck-thru from them would go with a walnut neck. As far as production guitars the Schecter Keith Merrow models (the hybrid and his artist ones) could work. The Hybrid is about 1350 and the artist 6 string i want to say is around 1800 bucks. The differences between the 2 is the hybrid has a mahogany body and maple neck, and it has keith's fishmans but only 1 voice. The artist is ash body, like a 9 piece wengepurple heart neck and his 3 voice fishman pick ups. So that's one way to go if you like. The ESP E-II line has some VERY nice guitars as well in that 2k range you could look at. Few of them are bare knuckle loaded pick up wise.


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## Musiscience (Nov 11, 2020)

possumkiller said:


> Devries?



Devries has unfortunately passed away earlier this year. A friend of his had posted the news on the Devries facebook group along with the message from a police official.


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## possumkiller (Nov 11, 2020)

Musiscience said:


> Devries has unfortunately passed away earlier this year. A friend of his had posted the news on the Devries facebook group along with the message from a police official.


What? Srsly fuck 2020 man.


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## Musiscience (Nov 11, 2020)

possumkiller said:


> What? Srsly fuck 2020 man.



Yea, I was sad to learn that too. RIP.


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## TheBolivianSniper (Nov 11, 2020)

I'd not even worry about spending that much and go for a Schecter like someone mentioned earlier. The E1 I had for a while matches all your specs, it was massive and barely weighed a thing, legit neck through with a great satin back and amazing fretwork. Sounded fantastic, felt so good to play. If you'd pick up one of the C1s I think you'd be pretty happy plus saving about $400-500 if you go used. New will still probably save $200.


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## bostjan (Nov 11, 2020)

Avedas said:


> The only Etherial I played physically assaulted me. The corner of the fretboard sliced right into my hand.



Yeah, but did it tessilate your thumb?


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## mlp187 (Nov 11, 2020)

possumkiller said:


> Devries?


I still think about nighttrain’s nightmare. Poor guy. Hopefully devries is at the bottom of an MLM scheme now.

@OP, Warmoth has some killer stuff. I’ve had a couple of bodies and a baritone neck from them. I will buy Warmoth again. 

edit: just saw your reply - you are not looking for Warmoth, well, I offer no suggestions then. Good luck!


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## Musiscience (Nov 12, 2020)

mlp187 said:


> I still think about nighttrain’s nightmare. Poor guy. Hopefully devries is at the bottom of an MLM scheme now.
> 
> @OP, Warmoth has some killer stuff. I’ve had a couple of bodies and a baritone neck from them. I will buy Warmoth again.
> 
> edit: just saw your reply - you are not looking for Warmoth, well, I offer no suggestions then. Good luck!



As mentioned before, Devries has died earlier this year.


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## mlp187 (Nov 12, 2020)

Whoa, I totally missed that!


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## bigcupholder (Nov 18, 2020)

How does Skervesen compare in terms of quality? The Raptor looks thin and light, and the neck specs seem good.


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## bigcupholder (Nov 27, 2020)

Well... I almost went with Skervesen but read some reviews that the neck profile is polarizing. So I played it safe going with a neck profile I know I really like and I went with a Kiesel DC600. Now to wait 12-18 weeks.

Thanks for all the suggestions! It was cool to learn about some other brands and even the "you can't really beat Kiesel for the price" replies were helpful.


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## Exit Existence (Nov 27, 2020)

DC600/700 models are fucking amazing you won't be disappointed. What specs did you get?


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## bigcupholder (Nov 27, 2020)

Exit Existence said:


> DC600/700 models are fucking amazing you won't be disappointed. What specs did you get?


Mahogany body
Chambering (free for Black Friday)
3 piece walnut neck with maple stripe (on sale)
Flamed maple top
Deep tigers eye in gloss finish
Thinner neck profile (free for Black Friday)
Satin finish back of neck
Inline 6 headstock
Ebony fretboard (no streaks)
Staggered dot inlays
Holdsworth pickups
Black hardware, pickup covers and pole pieces

I didn't get binding, which I was (and still am) unsure about. The horns already look a little skinny/stretched to me and binding might just highlight that. It's hard to tell from photos what these look like in real life though. Obviously I avoided the bevel. I got the tigers eye finish on the back/sides too.

I originally wanted a rosewood fretboard but the sales guy convinced me it might look weird with the tigers eye (or more accurately, didn't convince me it wouldn't clash when I asked). So that was one where I went for aesthetics over tone, but I don't think it's a huge deal - I have guitars with ebony fretboards that I like the sound of.

The sales guy said the Holdsworth pickups are not potted, but they're his favorite and I think they sounded the best in their pickup shootout on YouTube. I've swapped pickups on almost every guitar I've ever had, but I'm optimistic. I'll try them for a month or two at least.


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## Rossness (Dec 26, 2020)

How about ordering a Chubtone? They average $1500 and you pick the specs.


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## Seabeast2000 (Dec 26, 2020)

budda said:


> Balaguer.


Yep


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## Bearitone (Dec 26, 2020)

bigcupholder said:


> Well... I almost went with Skervesen but read some reviews that the neck profile is polarizing. So I played it safe going with a neck profile I know I really like and I went with a Kiesel DC600. Now to wait 12-18 weeks.
> 
> Thanks for all the suggestions! It was cool to learn about some other brands and even the "you can't really beat Kiesel for the price" replies were helpful.


What did you read is polarizing about then?


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## Hoss632 (Dec 26, 2020)

Rossness said:


> How about ordering a Chubtone? They average $1500 and you pick the specs.


Are they ran by someone that use to be at charvel? Most of the models look like direct san dimas copies. Still a nice price for a US made instrument.


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## bigcupholder (Dec 26, 2020)

Bearitone said:


> What did you read is polarizing about then?


Aren't they similar to Strandberg in the sense that the asymmetrical profile shifts as you go up the neck, except more rounded off? That's what I read. Maybe it's great, but without playing it first and no return policy that's too big a risk to take. At least Kiesel has a great return policy so it's a very low risk buy.


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## diagrammatiks (Dec 26, 2020)

bigcupholder said:


> Well... I almost went with Skervesen but read some reviews that the neck profile is polarizing. So I played it safe going with a neck profile I know I really like and I went with a Kiesel DC600. Now to wait 12-18 weeks.
> 
> Thanks for all the suggestions! It was cool to learn about some other brands and even the "you can't really beat Kiesel for the price" replies were helpful.




Well if you know that you like the kiesel neck then you don’t need anything fancy. 

the skervesen profile isn’t really that weird though. It’s nothing like an enduraneck. Just a slightly tapered profile. Feels like a regular neck.


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## Rossness (Dec 26, 2020)

Hoss632 said:


> Are they ran by someone that use to be at charvel? Most of the models look like direct san dimas copies. Still a nice price for a US made instrument.


That's the point. They're pretty Much Charvel without actually being called Charvel. I played a used one and the neck was superb! Huge frets, rolled edges and It sounded great! Along the same lines as Chubtone is GMW. He's ghostbuilt for Jackson. His builds are like $1200 for a very basic Charvel without a paintjob to Over $2k for a full custom painted neck-through guitar.


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## Hoss632 (Dec 26, 2020)

Rossness said:


> That's the point. They're pretty Much Charvel without actually being called Charvel. I played a used one and the neck was superb! Huge frets, rolled edges and It sounded great! Along the same lines as Chubtone is GMW. He's ghostbuilt for Jackson. His builds are like $1200 for a very basic Charvel without a paintjob to Over $2k for a full custom painted neck-through guitar.


That's pretty badass honestly. USA made charvel like guitar for half the price of a uSA charvel. I'll have to keep these brands in mind down the road.


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## Bearitone (Dec 27, 2020)

bigcupholder said:


> Aren't they similar to Strandberg in the sense that the asymmetrical profile shifts as you go up the neck, except more rounded off? That's what I read. Maybe it's great, but without playing it first and no return policy that's too big a risk to take. At least Kiesel has a great return policy so it's a very low risk buy.


Oh yeah fuck that. Too weird for me.

I wouldn’t mind a rounded trapezoid, even an asymmetrical rounded trapezoid, but if it shifts/snakes to one side or the other as you go up and down the neck? That’s just too much to roll the dice on.


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## bigcupholder (Dec 27, 2020)

Bearitone said:


> Oh yeah fuck that. Too weird for me.
> 
> I wouldn’t mind a rounded trapezoid, even an asymmetrical rounded trapezoid, but if it shifts/snakes to one side or the other as you go up and down the neck? That’s just too much to roll the dice on.


See the post above. Apparently I was wrong and it's more subtle than what I was imagining. I don't want to spread wrong information about something I haven't tried and the guys I messaged at Skervesen were all nice to deal with.

I'm keeping my eye out for a used Skervesen so I can try the neck and sell it without losing money if I don't like it, then possibly order a custom one after. I did the same with Kiesel. I'm a bit picky about necks and I live in a city with a good used gear scene, so this approach works for me.


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## Jack McGoldrick (Dec 28, 2020)

I am super late to this but I just got a build from a guy local to me and he’s just started his own company after moving from a high end acoustic job. The build is flawless and just perfect, and it’s really reasonably priced. You’d get a really stunning guitar for that price to your specs plus shipping probably. Can’t recommend him enough https://m.facebook.com/jkmguitars/?locale2=en_GB


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## bigcupholder (Mar 4, 2021)

20210304_162631



__ bigcupholder
__ Mar 4, 2021





NGD update: the guitar arrived today. It was shipped 11 weeks after ordering, so it was early, but then FedEx took over 2 weeks to ship it 

The tiger's eye finish is darker than expected (a bit darker than this photo). It's maybe halfway between what I expected and their "Deep Lava". There aren't many photos of this finish and they've tweaked it over the years so I knew it was a bit of a risk. But it's not obnoxiously orange, so I'm okay with it. The amazing top helps. BTW this is a standard flamed top.

The guitar plays really well. No surprises there. The thinner profile with a 14" fretboard radius and medium jumbo frets instantly feels familiar.

It sounds good unplugged: bright but not thin. The Holdsworth pickups are a lot brighter than I expected though. It almost sounds like they put Lithiums in there, but it's been awhile since I've played Lithiums and I have no prior experience with the Holdsworth pickups. Maybe they're not that different. The output also seems a bit low because my mid-gain helix presets were noticeably clean. They set the pickups pretty low, so when I have time I'll try raising them up to see if that helps both the output and brightness.


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## SymmetricScars (Mar 4, 2021)

^ That's a really nice flame


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## mbardu (Mar 4, 2021)

What a top wow


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## Avedas (Mar 7, 2021)

Wow you won the top lottery, congrats!


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## narad (Mar 7, 2021)

That looks great! A perfect tigers-eye (if it's a hint darker than photographed, as you say) and an amazing top.


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## Hollowway (Mar 8, 2021)

Killer top!


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