Zeitgeist (most important documentary you'll see)

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by thadood, Jul 4, 2007.

  1. thadood

    thadood 'Das brootal.

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    Zeitgeist - The Movie, 2007

    I cannot say enough about this. I am getting everyone I know to watch it.

    This is what some people from another forum I frequent have said:



    big edit: I'm such a turd for not realizing that there was a thread on this already. I hang my head in shame =\
     
    Durero likes this.
  2. Carrion

    Carrion Et tu, Brute?

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    3rd time being posted rofl.
     
  3. Mastodon

    Mastodon Songs about My Cats

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    Ha, yeah and I still havn't watched it. Three other people I know told me to watch it too.
     
  4. Durero

    Durero prototyping... Contributor

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    Well thanks for posting that Mathew. I just watched the whole darn thing and it was well worth it. It's very well put together and incorporates lots of stuff I've seen touched upon in other documentaries.

    Love the Bill Hicks quote at the end.


    Probably anyone who's into this doc would also love reading the book Ishmael by Daniel Quinn - really illustrates the cultural perspectives & problems extremely well.
     
  5. Pauly

    Pauly Not so local lefty

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    Watched the first bit, good so far... not really a fan of 9/11 conspiracy things, but I'll keep watching.
     
  6. Zepp88

    Zepp88 Arktanian Diplomat Contributor

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    Bill Hicks quote? I'm definetly going to watch this! :lol:

    What quote is it?
     
  7. oompa

    oompa Ze.. Contributor

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    yea, seen it before. tho i totally get that this is posted over and over, everyone should see it. a few points tho:




    -- spoilers below --- :

    the part about jesus is old news, the connection with horus is the moviemakers choice. i studied the social science of religion on uni, specializing in rel. psychology and rel. sociology. im no rel.history genious, but many of the similarities between saints, messiahs etc is well known, and no mystery.

    the 9/11 part on the other hand had more interresting. there sure are some missing pieces in the public version. besides the weird way the thing went down, heres what i can add: i did my military service as a non-commissioned officer (?) in the airforce in air surveillance and i was on duty that morning. i remember how we had a special meeting discussing how the hell this was possible, due to many many reasons. a plane just fly into new york, one of the biggest cities in the world, a coastal based city, with many military bases so close and crashes into a building on manhattan.

    the biggest reason is that a jet fighter, (incl most of the F-series) does roughly ~ 1600-1700 mph at full speed, wich is half a mile per second. there wouldnt be a problem taking down a hijacked plane if needed. especially with 80 minutes of notice. any jetfighter in the eastern half of the US would have the time to do this. including southern and eastern canada. and thats many jet fighters on alert in this area.

    the stuff about exercises with no radar, all countries have these, under wich it is -extremely- hard to guide from land and navigate. but you never run these exercises on all radars covering an area. you always keep additional radars out of the exercise, left undisturbed that covers every and all the same areas for national security, so this is no explanation.

    anyway, besides that, most of the stuff was fishy about the buildings collapsing, but still its no proof it wasnt terrorists doing this.

    the last part of the movie wasnt really that interresting, old news as well and just guesses. Asimov wrote about similar stuff already back in the 50s. the reason this movie is worth watching is the stuff about 9/11. tho there be no proof it wasnt terrorists (to me atleast), but there sure is more to the story than we are told, be it terrorists or not.
     
  8. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    I'm not sure I buy the jet fighter bit, but it's at least worth discussing. I DO know that several F-16's were in the air, I believe even a few that were airborne within enough time to have intercepted, had not federal regulations prohibited supersonic flight on such interceptions prior to 9/11. If memory serves, I want to say that two f-16's took off from the Boston area with time to spare had they gone supersonic, and about halfway down got such a bad feeling about what was going on that they DID in fact go supersonic, but by then it was too late.

    So, sadly, it's not like there were planes held on the ground that could have been screaming down on supersonic speeds...


    EDIT - and evidently, having just done some reading on the subject, there were serveral "war games" in progress on the notheastern seabord on September 11th, including a few involving hijacked commercial aircraft and one involving a commercial aircraft crashing into a building. I still don't know what went down that morning, and I doubt the US government was behind the attacks as some have claimed, but I'm SURE that the US government knows a lot that they're not saying.
     
  9. oompa

    oompa Ze.. Contributor

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    agree. i dont see this as any safe proof that the US is behind it, but it is proof to me that there is more to it than we are told. im no conspiracy nutcase, rather the other way around, but i can tell from my military service experience that this part is strange. very much so.

    i can safely say that an F-16 could travel from boston to new york in less than 10 mins if a real emergency occured. and on top of that, i can assure that under normal circumstances, no matter how big a drill or an exercise, you always maintain the same amount of standby fighters on the ground (just like you always maintain full area coverage by separate different radars when doin radar disturbance/no radar exercises). the time elapsing, no matter what country, from say.. the pilot taking a dump on a toilet in a hangar when the order is given, to being airborne in their fighter in -less than 90 seconds-. this is more or less standby standards in airforce security all over the world. something smells here.

    aside from this, if anyone saw zeitgeist, liked it and for some reason haven't seen loose change, do it. it is focusing only on the 9/11, and is even more descriptive on facts. aside from who is behind it all, its even more clear from this movie that something isnt really right.

    free stream from their website and google.
    this is the google link to the 2nd edition of loose change, 1,5 hours long:

    [googlevid]7866929448192753501[/googlevid]
     
  10. Ror3h

    Ror3h SS.org Regular

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    That Zeitgeist video was awesome, really connected a lot of the things going on in today's society and opened my eyes.
    Gonna watch Loose Change 2nd edition now, as I have nothing else to do.
     
  11. Mastodon

    Mastodon Songs about My Cats

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    Not trying to start something, but Loose Change is pretty terrible. It's mostly just striking fear in the viewer and causes them to make quick assumptions.
     
  12. Carrion

    Carrion Et tu, Brute?

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    I prefer Unfastened Coins
     
  13. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    It COULD, but it wouldn't. Again, see what I posted - as of 9/11 US policy was NOT to break the sound barrier on interception flights. And, since 9/11 was basically a gian clusterfuck of a communication breakdown (intentional or otherwise - your call), no one in a position to authorize the pilots to break their standing orders knew it wasn't until they'd already made it to the site, too late.

    It sounds dumb, limiting their speed on interceptions, but if you think about it, you definitely DON'T want F-16's breaking the sound barrier every time a 767 does something unexpected. It's not uncommon to see glass shatter on the ground below every time a sonic boom occurs, and as I recall from my militay-plane loving youth, there's actually some pretty serious restrictions about how far out to sea a fighter plane has to be before it can accellerate to supersonic speeds. Just because a F-16 can sustain 1600mph doesn't mean it necessarily makes sense to do so in a routine situation, which is what it looked like at the time,

    I mean, by the same token, I could go from Boston to New york in maybe 2 hours because my car's top speed is around 120-140mph. However, realistically, it's going to take me closer to 4 because if I go much above 75-80 on I-95, I'm going to get pulled over.

    I agree, you can build an interesting case that the US government may have known about the attacks, but intentionally allowed them to occur as an excuse to invade Afghanistan and Iraq (Iran's neighbors on the east and west, respectively, it's worth mentioning), but pointing to the fact that the F-16 didn't go down at top speed is a pretty empty argument - rather, the pilots/ground crew didn't know what was going on until both planes had already hit.

    And, here's an interesting question - what would you have done HAD you gotten an F-16 there in time? Shoot it down before you get to Manhattan? Not likely - military force used upon american civilions is STRICTLY forbidden in the US Constitution as the result of a number of historical riots quelled by the army. They'd never prepared for an eventuality like this, either, so there was no precident - they'd have had to make it up on the spot. Now, put yourself in the commander's shoes - you've got a plane cruising towards downtown manhattan that's not responding to communication. You think it'd been hijacked, but there are american citizens on board. You've got two F-16's within range, but you're 50 miles from downtown and closing, and already over a suburban neighborhood. Do you fire? You dont know what the pilot's up to, and do you want to be the one to give the order to shoot down several hundred american citizens in the air, crashing down over suburban housing? And with every second that passes, you get higher and higher population density.

    Odds are, if the planes had been there, they'd have just watched the airplane hit the towers, because that order wouldn't have been given until it was too late to execute.
     
  14. Metal Ken

    Metal Ken Hates the Air Contributor

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    Wow, i just kinda randomly fast forwarded in there and i just saw the section about the Pentagon getting hit by a vaporized plane.
    They said "If the plane vaporized when it hit the pentagon, it'd be the first time in history".

    Blatant Lie. Watch what happens when this F-4 Phantom hits a wall going 500MPH. the ONLY thing that survived the crash were the wingtips, cause the wingspan of the plane was wider than the wall.
     
  15. oompa

    oompa Ze.. Contributor

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    yea, they have the same limits in swe. but as you might know, as a plane leaves any airport it is given a id-code, wich it transmits to both civil and military radar stations. all civil aircrafts are not only observed, they are checked towards a flight schedual connected to this id-code. every plane has their every change in height, speed, direction etc written down, including every turn, until it reaches the destination airport. a plane simply doesnt dissappear before the eyes of the military. if you get a plane on radar with no code, something should happen. especially if its weird in anything, speed, cruise height, no communication with it etc.

    i have about 500 hours of military exercises and more than 1000 hours of civil surveillance done. i tell you, this would under any circumstances make the officers at all bases raise an eyebrow. like i said before, under any exercise whatsoever, you still keep standby fighters everywhere. same with radars, you never intentionally black out -every- radar covering an area, only the ones you use for the exercise.

    that is what is fishy. say a normal dude with no particular knowledge in any of these areas might find any part more suspicious. a guy with knowledge about crash sites or building construction or something, might find that part fishy. a dude with skills in chemistry or physics might find that part particulary interresting. i find the part about what the hell air surveillance was doin, more smelly, cus in that area i know alot.

    f it wasnt anything out of the ordinary, air surveillance in the US is extremely incompetent. i remember being on air surveillance duty that day just like any other during 2001, and after we learned about this, the officers in the hangar had a emergency meeting, raising the security level on all airbases in sweden. but they didnt spend the rest of the day wondering as much WHO did it, as HOW the hell they could have done it, knowing what they know about this stuff. the whole thing about how air surveillance acted is what is weird.

    and about that film ken, im not sure you can compare a standard boeing 757 being roughly 50x40x15m weighing 100 tons in free flight, maybe bumping, hitting both the ground and other stuff, to a f4 being roughly 20x10x5m weighing around 25-30 tons bolted to a track hitting a concrete wall in exactly 90 degree angle.

    every other planecrash i have seen left clear parts lying about, be it a mountain wall or a building. but im not going to argue about whats true or not, im no crash site expert, and i clearly see your point with your film, and obviously the comment in the movie is false.

    its very interrestning to me tho, and i do find some of the stuff in both movies abit unrealistic, and some stuff very possible. for example, its nothing weird about the gov. wanting any possible evidence, such as videocams from nearby gas stations. that happens all the time, even when a person has been assaulted on a friday night, that hardly proves anything.

    peace
     
  16. Metal Ken

    Metal Ken Hates the Air Contributor

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    Well, all i was getting at, is that they said it never happened previously in aviation history. Which it clearly has. I realize a giant fucking jet airliner is not gonna have the same results ramming a wall as a (relatively) small fighter aircraft ramming into a wall.
    I think thats what theye're trying to do though. "Planes don't disintegrate! its NEVER happened!" When there's clear evidence to the contrary. Popular Science also debunked a TON of the points in loose change a few years ago, as well.
    That on top of the fact that, as stated before, that members on this forum know eyewitnesses of the pentagon attack and can confirm it was a plane as well.

    Thats my issue with all this conspiracy stuff. It makes it look like the government isnt releasing all the information, when at the same time they arent accounting for all the facts either.
     
  17. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    Don't get me wrong, duyde, the government's response is more or less in line with what you would expect if they had decided at the executive command level to allow the attacks to occur as a reason to declare war. However, I think the suggestion there comes not from "a F-16 could have made that flight at top speed in 10 minutes" but rather from the breakdown in command, and that the order to take off was as late as it was and the pilots were never told anything seriously out of the ordinary had occured so they were never authorized to break the sound barrier.

    And again, I'm not convinced the order to fire COULD have been given, at an airplane full of US citizens with no prior precident and an unclear-at-best idea of just what the hijackers were intending to do.
     
  18. Murder Soul

    Murder Soul SS.org Regular

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    I saw this a few weeks ago. Good documentary. I didn't really care much about the 9/11 stuff, since I have already seen loose change, and to be honest, once we get Bush and the Patriot act out it will nolonger matter. However, The world bank pisses me off. Someone needs to destroy it. Thats not even a conspiracy. The debunking of Christianity is also interesting.
     
  19. Durero

    Durero prototyping... Contributor

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    Yeah I also found the banking and money system manipulation to be the most disturbing part of the whole doc. Manipulating currency like that can create such extreme concentrations of wealth that it's easy to see a clear motivation for those banking & corporate interests to desire perpetual war.
     
  20. thadood

    thadood 'Das brootal.

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    That's what's bothering me the most right now.

    http://www.youtube.com/v/ClxR-8VLxD8
     

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