Your Ideal Multiscale specs!

Discussion in 'Dealers & Group Buys' started by The Music Zoo, May 12, 2014.

  1. The Music Zoo

    The Music Zoo SS.org Regular

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    mod edit: Please keep product development / promotion / etc in the Dealers section. Thank you.

    Hey guys, we're a store in Long Island, New York looking to begin building an 8-string multi-scale electric guitar. We have an idea of what we want to make, but want to hear what everyone is looking for in a 7 or 8 string (i.e. scale length, neck width, woods, bridges). Also, feel free to address any problems you typically run into with multiscales and just all 7 and 8 strings in general. We want to make something truly special.
     
  2. Promit

    Promit SS.org Regular

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    For me the big pain point in multiscales is the pickups. I'm in the camp that feels you need to slant the pickups, and when you do that there aren't a lot of options for pickups that fit, particularly in passives. I have an XBar/Deathbar equipped Agile, and it's good -- but if I were doing it over again, I might have gone with actives instead. That would give me more flexibility in selecting the tonal properties. As it is, I don't really have options.

    Other thoughts... a simple hard tail bridge with individual saddles works fine. I'm a fan of shorter scale lengths and would probably do it in 25.5 to 27 to accommodate my smaller hands. And the neck... I've been wondering if an asymmetric profile might work well.
     
  3. RV350ALSCYTHE

    RV350ALSCYTHE SS.org Regular

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    23.5-25.5 and 25.5-28 are the only 2 scales I really want for an 8

    I can get along with various neck dimensions so I have no detailed input. Every 8 neck I've tried has been playable. Something I've considered is shifting the scale deeper into the body. Move the bridge further back so that the first few frets are not as far away, essentially the bass side of the neck would be 28" scale but only extend away from the player much like a 25.5" scale would. Possibly lose some access to the higher frets but with the fanning I don't see it being a problem.

    Pickups HAVE to be angled and not a slanted square, I mean built slanted and designed to fit the aesthetics of the guitar. Straight pickups installed slanted do not look good. Straight pickups installed straight also does nothing for me visually. Nothing irritates me more than huge emg block covers in fanned guitars. I also do not like how the bridge pickups seem to be moving away from the bridge in multiscales. The treble side is close like a traditional guitar but the bass side tapers away from the bridge and sounds more like a middle pickup.

    I have no real preference for woods other than quality pieces to start. I'd like to see multiple options (if possible) for materials. For example the same model is available in mahog body/neck and poplar body/maple neck etc.

    Tuner hole Size! They are never bored to fit anything above 0.074. It is an incredibly easy fix but it would be nice if a manufacturer would do something about this before shipping.

    I'm fine with the current bridge systems of single saddles, but a custom bridge plate would be much better and allow the option to install different saddles.
     
  4. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    23.5-25.5 for an 8? That's nuts. But indicative of how you can't make everyone happy. I for one do not look forward to > 1.5" differences in scale.
     
  5. sniperfreak223

    sniperfreak223 B.C. Rich loyalist

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    I honestly don't see myself going multiscale for a 7 or an 8...the ones I have intonate very well at fixed 25.5" and 27" in all the logical tunings I'd use. Now if I were to get a 9, I'd probably like that to be something like a 27"-30" fan for a little less flub on the low C#.

    My guess is he'd be tuning to a high A, in other words BEADGBEA, standard 7-string tuning with an extra high string.
     
  6. Nagash

    Nagash doesn't like things

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    never played a multiscale, but I can already tell you this :

    1) most people are used to 25.5" scale, they'll be interested in 25.5-27 or 25.5-28 fans.

    2) most ERG players are prog musicians, and their standard instrument has been the Ibanez RG 7-string for years. A thin flat neck might just appeal to them quite a bit, especially since the neck is already quite wide and not everyone has bear paws.

    3) Single saddles bridge. They're top-loadable, which means you can use Kalium (Circle K) strings on them (they're not recommended for string-through body stuff). Kalium strings have a good reputation in the ERG community because they're tighter and sound good for low notes (because they're thinner than most strings at the same tension).

    4) Lace bar pickups in H-H config. They're passive and there will never be a pole misalignment issue (and people with OCD won't lose their minds on that, too). Might have to see if EMGs and Laces fit into the same cavity, then you can easily offer both options just by adding a battery cavity.

    You want to do something really special, but you have to do something generic enough if you want it to sell in the end.

    5) basswood or swamp ash body. people seem to like that stuff more than any other wood choices. maple neck, keeps it cheap and stable (maybe a 7-piece with laminates like walnut, bubinga, wenge or anything that sounds exotic)

    I think bolt-on would be the best choice, since that's what most people go after these days.

    :2c:
     
  7. Mike

    Mike The Traveler Contributor

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    If your goal is to sell as many as possible, he nailed it.
     
  8. Nagash

    Nagash doesn't like things

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    (almost none of those specs are anything I personally would want, cause I'm always that weird guy who doesn't conform to the norms :lol: )
     
  9. RV350ALSCYTHE

    RV350ALSCYTHE SS.org Regular

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    It's all personal preference. I've been playing 3" fanned guitars and basses without issue. I personally find them far easier to play compared to any straight scaled guitar.


    It would be for using a high A in standard tuning like these two guitars which have the 23.5" treble scale. I didn't want to log onto facebook to save/upload the 23.5-25.5 " ran crusher but it looks identical to the longer scale crusher pictured here.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  10. InfinityCollision

    InfinityCollision SS.org Regular

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    String through is not recommended for their tapered bass strings. It's fine for all their guitar strings.

    The A4-capable market is all but empty outside of true customs right now. Dean used to have that fanned Rusty Cooley model, but that's about it. If you want to make something truly special, a 23.5-25.5" 8-string would definitely fit the bill.
     
  11. Khoi

    Khoi SS.org Regular

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    Pretty much exactly what I'd want, minus the Laces. I'd go for slanted BKPs (slanted is a MUST for me)

    also - COST!

    Just because a fanned fret 8-string is available, doesn't mean people will flock to it.

    I think I could use the Mayones V-line as an example to this -- their price seems a bit out of place for the market that fanned fret 8-strings are geared towards.


    edit - I personally think that 25.5 - 28" is too long of a fan, I didn't find it comfortable at all. But either 25.5 - 27 or 26.5" - 28" work
     
  12. Winspear

    Winspear Tom Winspear Vendor

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    Some good points here. I'm very happy with fans 3-4 inches wide but sticking with 2 is a good idea for selling. Certainly nothing to call nuts though!
    I don't consider 27 inches enough for the typical use of F# or lower. For F#, yeah, just - but below that you need 85-90 gauges to pull regular tension and things can start getting muddy. I think 28 would have been a MUCH better standard.
    28-26 is something I think many people including myself would enjoy. Bit tighter and clearer on the low end without becoming hard to play. Top end only .5 longer so you can't really complain about a shrill tone etc. Little extra tension for the guys that find 11/10 too tight but 10/9 gauge too loose etc.
    25.5-28 would be fine too. Better, for myself - but the 2.5 inch fan might put people off who haven't played one before?

    But to continue on what was said earlier...a high A capable 8 NEEDS TO EXIST. 23.5-25.5 would rule.
     
  13. jephjacques

    jephjacques BUTTS LOL

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    I get the appeal of 25.5-27" fans, but considering how many 27" instruments there are these days, it kind of defeats the purpose IMO. I'd much rather see something like 28-26.5".
     
  14. bschmidt

    bschmidt chug life

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    I think the fan should go beyond 27" because there's so many 27's around. I really like the 26 - 28 fan on my guitar. I'm not picky about bridges as long as they're not floating. as far as i know schaller, hannes, hipshot, abm are all rad for multiscales. SIDEBAR: I would love to try an evertune bridge on an 8 someday ;)

    my biggest problem with 7/8 strings is that the tuners are rarely wide enough to get a higher gauge string through, and unwinding the string to make it fit through is a pretty big inconvenience. I don't know if this is something you'd have power over, although I suppose you could always file out the 2 lowest tuners and you'd make a lot of people happy.

    The other thing I am generally frustrated with for 8 strings is a lack of pickup options (aesthetically). I find emgs and lace pickups pretty unappealing to the eye, so I'm pretty much left with black open coils. again, this compounds with multiscale as I'd want to have slanted pickups but there aren't a ton of options out there.

    one more thing I just thought of and I think it deserves its own paragraph... there is very little choice for any other body shape besides the tried and true RG. I'd personally love to see an 8 string take on a singlecut or tele shape, but any new body shape would be pretty cool as well :)
     
  15. 7stg

    7stg SS.org Regular

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    Guitar
    If 1/3 inch per string.

    8 string
    Short 26 - 28.667
    Medium 28 - 30.667
    Long 30 - 32.667
    A4 tuning 23.5 - 26.167 or 24 - 26.667 http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/extended-range-guitars/162586-a4-beyond-thread.html

    9 string
    Short 28 - 31
    Long 30 - 33

    10 string
    30 - 33.333 to 30-35 this really needs to start from as long as the E4 can take and have as big a spread as is deemed comfortable to get a long enough scale for the 10th string at G#0 - 25.957Hz to sound good.

    * long scale and high A4 target for the high string is 1/2 step bends and vibrato are fine, but whole step bends are not practical. This works for rhythm players who want the clearest most defined low notes who would buy the Ibanez m80m or agile 830 if single scale is the only option and still want more for the low end. http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/extended-range-guitars/10064-string-gauges-inharmonicity.html The OP here determines that the minimum for an low F#1 should be 28 5/8 and I agree.
    _________________________________

    Guitar
    If 1/4 inch per string.

    8 string
    Short 26.625 - 28.625
    Medum 28 5/16 - 30 5/16
    Long 30 - 32
    A4 tuning 23.5 - 25.5 or 24 - 26

    9 string
    Short 29 - 31.25
    Long 30 - 32.25

    ________________________________

    Bass
    7 string 33.25 - 37 maybe 34 - 38 for an 8 string.

    ___________________________________

    Single saddles are good.
    Pickups from Lace up to 5 inches, Q-Tuner 10-string model is 4.5 inches, or Bare knuckle. I think Seymour Duncan will build then too.
    Pickups should be angled.
    Bridge pickup very close to the bridge.
    Swamp ash body, alder could work too.
    I like neck through.
    5 or more piece maple neck.
    I like a thick U profile, may be the odd one on this though.
    Ebony board maple is good too.
    Jescar 55090 fretwire in stainless - ultra jumbo tall but just large width - easy to play on.
    I am fine with a super-strat but X shapes are cool like the Ibanez Xiphos or Jackson Warrior. Must be able to play seated.
    Upper fret access is important with a wide open area.
    24 fret minimum could go for 27 or more.
    Fretboard radius 14 inches.
    String spacing is fairly standard for 8 strings at the nut 54-55mm.
    Bridge deep into the body is a must, especially for longer scales.
    Tuning machines with a high ratio 19:1.
    Push/pull pots if passive. These ones are Good quality and good price.
    Copper tape shielded electronic cavity.
    Perpendicular fret at somewhere around the 7th to 9th fret.
    The fretboard should be cut to angle at the end so there is no triangle at the end and the neck pickup can fit right
     
  16. Yo_Wattup

    Yo_Wattup Kick the Butterfly

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    Maybe if you designed a neck with a smaller fan (1.5 inches over 8 strings is a very small fan) and where the perpendicular fret distance is closer to the bridge. I tried to patch together the idea im talking about using this website, see how the bridge in my pic is relatively straight? Means you dont have the pickup problems promit mentioned.

    http://www.ekips.org/tools/guitar/fretfind2d/


    In particular mess around with the "perpendicular fret distance" stat, and notice the angle of the bridge
     

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  17. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

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    Yeah, I agree with what most have said here. I'm cool with straight fret 8s, but if I got an 8 multi scale I'd go for 25.5-27.5ish. If it were a 9 string I'd say mandatory multiscaling, and the low end at a minimum of 30".

    I also agree that slanted pups, in line with the fan, are desirable. And they should be rhomboid, not rectangular. The fretboard should be cut at the bridge pup end at and angle so there's not weird piece on there. And at the nut end the same thing. There's nothing that says poor planning like a little triangle of no-mans land at the area past the nut. That Dean above is in harsh violation of that.
     
  18. RV350ALSCYTHE

    RV350ALSCYTHE SS.org Regular

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    25/27 is relatively common now.

    Rondo seems to have a good grip on the budget multiscale market.
    I personally don't want to see you just become another rondo, I'd like to see you offer specs outside of their "box".

    Most have been asking for choices other then the "standard" 25/27, and I'm with them. There is a lot of people who have asked rondo for different specs and they can't deliver everything, so it would be nice if you were able to grab that portion of the ERG market that they currently can't expand to. For example the short scale 8 capable of a high A :wavey:


    BASS GUITARS!!!! There isn't enough multiscale basses

    I love my Dingwall but Shit, I want more options and cheaper prices. Anything below 2k, and I'd prolly pick up multiple models if the price range was below 1k.

    I want 34-38 6 strings, 35-40 6 strings. CircleK/Kalium offer lengths suitable for up to 40inch scale lengths, so I better not hear issues of "no suitable strings" :p

    I'd also consider (after getting the long scales) shorter multiscale basses 30-33 for example.


    I 100% agree. a very slight fanning with the bridge being perpendicular would allow the use of any standard pickup and not losing the extended scale on the bass side and shorter scale on the treble side. Any standard bridge could be easily used as well. Make these cheap and ready for heavy modification and I think they would sell much like the RG8 and RGA8 have.
     
  19. ceiling_fan

    ceiling_fan SS.org Regular

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    I'm not sure when this was added, but you can get 24.0-27 and 24.0-25.5 Agile Pendulums now. (6-10 strings)
     
  20. InfinityCollision

    InfinityCollision SS.org Regular

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    All the x242x models I've seen recently have a 24.75" treble scale, not 24". Even if it was 24", that's pretty close to the practical limit for A4. 23.5" would be better. Still not enough to get aggressive with it, but it'll hold pitch and last long enough as long as you don't bend it too much or constantly fiddle with the tuning on it.

    The semi-custom shop hasn't offered multiscales in the past few months either.

    EDIT: Actually it looks like Kurt JUST reopened orders on the multiscales. Pretty sure that wasn't there when I checked their webpage yesterday :lol:
     

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