You need to comply with *my* sacred religious oath! Don't even talk to me, you women!

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Explorer, Feb 28, 2015.

  1. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

    Messages:
    12,972
    Likes Received:
    1,140
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Location:
    St. Johnsbury, VT USA
    So, of the 6 requests in the letter, the issue you ahve is solely with request number 1?
     
  2. Edika

    Edika SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    3,344
    Likes Received:
    370
    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2010
    Location:
    Londonderry, N.Ireland, UK
    I'd just like to add, that just because they're making a request and not hurting anybody that doesn't mean the rest of us won't find it stupid and make fun of it. I didn't know religions were beyond reproach, especially in cases like these. It's another thing to respect religion and another thing to have to inconvenience the majority for any whimsical request they might have.

    For exampe, I recently heard that a priest here has been telling people during the shermon to avoid yoga and specificaly deep meditation as they might get posessed by demons. Being Ireland you can guess which part of Christianity he is coming from. Now if this doesn't qualify as a really stupid thing that can't go uncommented, °then I don't know what is.
     
  3. Edika

    Edika SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    3,344
    Likes Received:
    370
    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2010
    Location:
    Londonderry, N.Ireland, UK
    They're mentioning monks and nuns yet they keep mentioning female stuff not coming in contact with them as that would break their celibacy. Now in my book that is sexist and offensive in a passive aggresive manner.
     
  4. asher

    asher So Did We

    Messages:
    9,033
    Likes Received:
    686
    Joined:
    May 24, 2010
    Location:
    Oakland, CA
    :scratch:

    I think you completely missed the point.

    Pretty much ALL of their requests will mess with other paying passengers or the flight staff.

    In your pizza example, the request doesn't really mess with the delivery driver very much at all, and messes with other pizza customers zero.
     
  5. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

    Messages:
    12,972
    Likes Received:
    1,140
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Location:
    St. Johnsbury, VT USA
    Ok, I suppose everything is fair game for ridicule. In that case I'll simply refrain from the ridicule. :shrug:


    Well, that is stupid. But then again, the priest you mentioned is making a claim and trying to influence decisions by others. These monks in this case are requesting special service due to a personal choice. To me, that's not nearly as stupid. :shrug:

    I disagree, particularly that it is offensive. When I was young, there were plenty of women who would not talk to me because I was a young man, and they were out with their friends. If it is offensive for a celebate monk to politely ask that a message is relayed to female staff not to talk directly to them due to a personal choice, then I should be really offended that girls in bars wouldn't talk to me when I was 21. :rolleyes:
     
  6. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

    Messages:
    12,972
    Likes Received:
    1,140
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Location:
    St. Johnsbury, VT USA
    A) How does this interfere with other passenger's service?
    B) Is this not a request that the airline would not otherwise respect without any qualms?

    A) How does this interfere with other passenger's service?
    B) Is this not a request that the airline would not otherwise respect without any qualms?

    A) How does this interfere with other passenger's service?
    B) Is this not a request that the airline would not otherwise respect without any qualms?

    etc.…
     
  7. michblanch

    michblanch SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    241
    Likes Received:
    26
    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2007
    Location:
    Houston
    I'm fine with all of those except one.

    Be allowed to preboard.
    Let's see:
    Elderly - That's cool
    Babies - That's cool
    Active Military - That's cool
    Disabled - Super Cool

    Religious denomination - ???? Nope , don't buy into that one.

    I fly a lot. I get on board put on my headphones and watch my iPad.
    So if a monk wants a drink he better tell the flight attendant.
     
  8. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

    Messages:
    6,351
    Likes Received:
    934
    Joined:
    May 23, 2009
    Location:
    Formerly from Cucaramacatacatirimilcote...
    Taking a brief moment to give some examples.

    In answer to question A - You have flight crew moving a drink cart up the aisle. That crew is told they should respect someone's religion, which forbids the crew from following the FAA laws regarding the required informing of passengers of safety procedures. That affects other passengers in the event of an emergency.

    There's also the matter of the drinks and food. The flight crew is busy, and handles requests on the fly, but are trained to engage with the passengers. They hand out meal service based on how is closest, and that helps get everyone served faster. They aren't thinking, am I allowed to talk to this person?

    Regarding question B, yes, the flight crew does not just set aside FAA law, even if a passenger requests it.

    No one is being obligated to travel on a conveyance which is a public accommodation, just as no Amish are required to own automobiles. if the Amish cannot do certain things because of their faith, they do without. The Amish cannot require others to avoid modernity because the Amish won't use it in their private lives. The public doesn't even have to dress differently on the street. The Amish can control their own actions, but not those of others.

    There was a strange court martial case during the W. Bush administration, a case regarding religious freedom. A Christian military vehicle driver was being told that she had to cover her head in order to respect the Muslim religious practices of Saudi Arabia. She refused, because she was not Muslim, and wouldn't put Allah ahead of the Christian God. That was her sincere religious belief. The Sauds wanted American solders to protect them, but still wanted those soldiers to bow to their religious beliefs.

    If the Hindu sect feels that using public accommodations endangers their religious tenets, it's up to them to either reject whatever temptations are being thrust upon them, or to not put themselves into those situations. If they need to charter private transit as the price of their beliefs, that's on them.

    To claim that everyone else needs to help keep 50% of the population, including flight crew, away from a person is an undue burden, and an unreasonable accommodation to request. They can stay home.
     
  9. Edika

    Edika SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    3,344
    Likes Received:
    370
    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2010
    Location:
    Londonderry, N.Ireland, UK
    As I haven't mastered the multiquote I'll just go like this.

    They are not being stupid, instead incredibly clever. They're trying to influence a major company and create a precedent that would be as an example to leverage preferential treatment from any other company or public service for a different understanding of celibacy from their part.
    Which ties to the sexist comment as they don't specify male staff speaking to and serving nuns of that faith as a breach of celibacy. It might be inferred or the guy was just lazy writing down the other case and thought the company would "get it". As we have a really explanatory text for monks and nothing for nuns it is easy to make the conclusion that they think women are temptresses that will sway their monks and nuns or they just don't give a shit about nuns in their faith which is sexist towards women in general and the women in their faith.

    Ridicule surely is not the right way to go but when faced with people that will object to any logical arguments using as a shield "because my faith says so" then you can't really take them seriously either.

    EDIT: Your comparison with women not wanting to talk to you in bars is not that successful as you're comparing two completely different situations.
     
  10. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

    Messages:
    4,510
    Likes Received:
    480
    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2013
    Location:
    Chicago
    Sexism, even when written into a religious code (as it is in every major religion I can think of), is still wrong, bad, should be thrown out.

    I don't understand how any of these ....ing religions can expect to be taken seriously when they hang on to such utter bullshit. You know, I think that belief in a higher power is a fantastically stupid way to waste your mental effort, but I realize there are some good, even great ideas about living in religion. I would like to see religions, even hinduism, continue on... I just wish they'd get the .... with it already.

    Sort of a tangent but recently I think I might be off with the whole "Let's destroy religion!" train that I've been on for so long. I might be boarding the "Let's take religion and make it atheist, really just more of a glorified cultural-tradition club, giving back to the community, but no one really believes it and chooses their religion based mostly on aesthetics/personal identification/kind of like how you choose what style of clothes you wear or the music you like" train
     
  11. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

    Messages:
    12,972
    Likes Received:
    1,140
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Location:
    St. Johnsbury, VT USA
    I am missing something major here. Where did they ask to not be informed of the safety information that is provided on the safety information cards that passengers are obligated to read if they choose not to pay attention to the safety announcement? Also, didn't they make an exception for emergencies in the request? I thought that they asked not to have service, so I am also missing your second point entirely. :scratch:

    Who is making that claim? They politely requested something special. Everything you guys seem to be so pissed about, seems to me to be your assumptions about what they might do or whatever if they company says "no, we won't do that."

    All I am saying is that there should be nothing wrong with asking.

    Maybe you are right, but to me, that seems like a little bit of a conclusion leap.

    Okay. :shrug: I agree that the analogy was not successful in getting the point across to you.

    This idea that the request is somehow offensive just blows my mind. It seemed pretty polite to me. If the fact that someone else holds a different worldview than you do offends you, then I think that's your problem. I was merely trying to point out that picking on someone else for having a different world view is one thing, but getting offended is another level beyond that. I fail to see how the world view of these monks harms anyone. In this case, I still don't see how it is even an inconvenience for them to ask if it would be too much of an inconvenience for a company to accommodate that differing world view. Maybe it says something that they realize and identify that most other people would not, by default, be comfortable with their different world view.

    -------------

    Overall, this thread just strikes me as unneccesarily grumpy. We all have the right, of course, to be grumpy. You guys can be grumpy about this all you like. I just don't get it, so I disagree.
     
  12. asher

    asher So Did We

    Messages:
    9,033
    Likes Received:
    686
    Joined:
    May 24, 2010
    Location:
    Oakland, CA
    Let's try a little thought experiment:

    Replace "women" with "[insert racial minority here]."

    Is it racist?


    (hint: yes. Try pulling "I won't sit next to [minority] here because of my beliefs" anywhere and see where that gets you.)
     
  13. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

    Messages:
    12,972
    Likes Received:
    1,140
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Location:
    St. Johnsbury, VT USA
    I think that's congruent with this analogy:

    Take heterosexuality. You prefer not to have intimate contact with men. Replace "men" with "[insert racial minority here]".

    Is the new statement racist? If so, following the same logic you used, heterosexuality is sexist.

    Maybe it is, actually, and I'm just not open-minded enough to think of it that way…
     
  14. asher

    asher So Did We

    Messages:
    9,033
    Likes Received:
    686
    Joined:
    May 24, 2010
    Location:
    Oakland, CA
    It's not, though, because one's sexuality is not a preference or selection :wallbash:
     
  15. flint757

    flint757 SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    6,400
    Likes Received:
    197
    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2011
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Deciding who you sleep with and who you sit next to on a plane aren't exactly the same thing. Somebody is stretching it thin to be right. :lol:
     
  16. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

    Messages:
    12,972
    Likes Received:
    1,140
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Location:
    St. Johnsbury, VT USA
    How am I stretching it any further than you guys are?

    Why when someone else makes an analogy, you guys are fine with it, but I make a similar analogy, and everyone piles on me.

    And no, it's not "exactly the same thing" that's the point of an analogy. I even said that the logic followed was congruent, not that it was the same thing.

    What am I trying to be right about anyway? Some people here got offended by this polite request from a religious sect for special service. It seems to me that it is no stretch to say that they are entitled to ask for something. If anything is a stretch, it's all of this "these people are making sexist demands."

    I'm not always right, I'll admit. In this instance, I'm not even stating what is right and wrong, this is all a matter of opinion, anyway.

    If you guys all think that I am the one using hyperbole in this thread and that no one else is, then I will gladly stay out of here, because, in that case, sadly, there is no reason for further discussion.
     
  17. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

    Messages:
    4,510
    Likes Received:
    480
    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2013
    Location:
    Chicago
    Bojjy, no one is mad. We like you! If this place (especially this subforum above all) didn't have people disagreeing it would be the most boring shit ever!

    And the logic isn't congruent, because those dudes themselves chose to be that way, while our sexuality isn't exactly "up to us".
     
  18. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

    Messages:
    12,972
    Likes Received:
    1,140
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Location:
    St. Johnsbury, VT USA
    :wub:

    Ok. Maybe an anology of an analogy is silly way to try to make a point. Maybe it's not, but the more I think of it the more I know it isn't the best way to make a point.

    As far as whether the request is sexist or not, let's confer with a dictionary:

    sexism: noun 1. attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of gender roles.
    2. discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex or gender, as in restricted job opportunities, especially such discrimination directed against women.
    3. ingrained and institutionalized prejudice against or hatred of women; misogyny.

    [from dictionary.com]

    Which of those three do you think applies to the request?
     
  19. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

    Messages:
    4,510
    Likes Received:
    480
    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2013
    Location:
    Chicago
    1 & 2 pretty much. Maybe 3 but it isn't overt in the request.

    And I realized it can be excused for "religious reasons". They're monks, after all, who've made a life choice to be celibate, even insofar as not allowing women to communicate with them directly. That does not make it less discriminatory in actuality, on a practical application level. Having some esoteric reason to do something doesn't change what you're doing... at least in this situation... at least in my opinion.
     
  20. asher

    asher So Did We

    Messages:
    9,033
    Likes Received:
    686
    Joined:
    May 24, 2010
    Location:
    Oakland, CA
    No, it doesn't, otherwise we'd all be stuck with giving a pass to all the Christian-fueled LGBT discrimination laws.
     

Share This Page