Yet another Islamic attack in London...

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Insomnia, Jun 3, 2017.

  1. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    But that thinking is circular. What is the deal with these terrorists? They hate us. Where does that hate come from? Islam. Howcome? Because the terrorists put it there.

    I firmly believe that the root cause in this is not simply internal, but a mixture of external prompting and internal backwards-ness. My argument is that if these folks were not Muslim, but Zoroastrians, or Dagonites, or worshipers of Cthulhu, it wouldn't make any difference. The culture in which these people are steeped is not congruent with the practices of Islam anyway. They are taught from an early age to hate everything they don't understand, to hate anything from outside of their culture, and to deal with that hatred by outward violence. This is from tribal laws and rites that have nothing to do with Islam. But the manipulators from within their communities paint the face of Islam on all of these little rules and over this entire culture of hatred.

    Do you follow me?

    Blaming Islam for these acts of violence is silly. Islam is a set of beliefs. Actions and decisions are made by people, not beliefs. A belief is something held by a person. If some idiot tries to run me down with his car, I don't blame Chrysler, I blame the driver, even if the driver calls himself "The Chrysler State."
     
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  2. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    What if he cries out "Chrysler is great!" while he's crunching over your spine?

    ---------------


    So like, if reforming Islam is so "impossible", then how did the Jews do it? That religion is even older, arguably as weird and socially backwards with it's beliefs (especially with regards to women), arguably as violent, yet Reform Judaism has totally taken off. I'm curious to know what percent of all [religious] Jews are Reform.

    I think it's just a matter of popularizing and proselytizing. If we can hook some more of these old fashioned Muslims on the Reform train, I think it would really take off, act as sort of a stepping stone. They wouldn't have to abandon their faith, but they also wouldn't have to do all the disagreeable stuff they probably don't really want to do in the first place. In the context of Christianity, church used to be fucking serious. But these days almost half the ones people go to are just rock'n'roll singalongs.

    They actually already have this "Reform Islam", but I just forgot the name of it. But unfortunately I'd assume practitioners would be immediately jailed or killed in many Islamic nations.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2017
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  3. Dredg

    Dredg Insignificant Contributor

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    And yet you don't see Coptic Christians, Zoroastrians, Bahai, Al-Illahists, Yazidis, the Druze, or any other religions linked to Arab customs and culture bombing ice cream shops or driving lorrys into crowds. Mostly because they're also being persecuted as well. One of the biggest problems within the Arab world is Islamic sectarian violence. Sunnis and Shias have been at each other's throats ever since Abu Bakr became Islam's first caliph after Muhammad's death. Violence is completely justified both in contexts of Jihad and in daily life as prescribed in both Qur'an and hadith especially towards non-muslims.
     
  4. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    This made me laugh out loud. I'm not certain I can accurately describe why.

    You mean Salafism? That's been the predominant reform movement in Islam, although it is pressuring for a stricter, more conservative, and sometimes more violent Islam.

    Well, not anymore, but when those religions were widespread, they were also used to promote violence, just like I was saying. Whatever the attackers hold for a banner is not important, really, as they are all interchangeable.
     
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  5. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    Well fuck it
     
  6. Dredg

    Dredg Insignificant Contributor

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    Precisely. Pre-Islamic Arabia solved this problem with the establishment of sacred months, where violence was forbidden and pilgrimage to religious sites (Meccan shrines) were encouraged. These traditions were indeed adopted by Islam, as the religion boasts not only 4 holy months, but a mandatory pilgrimage to those who are capable.

    When atrocities are performed in the name of a religion, it is imperative that the secular world understands why - and delving into the mandates of prescribed belief is exactly the first step. When you hear of an ex-muslim being killed by an angry street mob at the behest of a local Imam, there's a religious justification for it. When you hear of Christian parents letting a child die of curable illness because they believe in the power of faith healing, there's a religious justification for it. When you hear of a rabbi transmitting herpes to a baby during a bris, there is a religious justification for that. It's time we stop looking at these people like they're mentally ill when their claims are absolutely justified within the confines of their worldview - as laid out in black and white in their holy books.
     
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  7. tedtan

    tedtan SS.org Regular

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    I don't disagree, but I think you are overlooking how much political and financial power the big oil companies possess in western governments and economies.


    There are definitely examples of educated intelligent people joining Al Queda/ISIS/etc., but the number of intelligent, educated people who are disaffected enough to join those types of extremist movements is greatly overshadowed by the number of poor, uneducated people manipulated into joining those same movements.


    Gotta keep them placated enough that they keep sending us their oil.


    True.
     
  8. tedtan

    tedtan SS.org Regular

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    There are a couple of different parts to this. First, as bostjan mentioned previously, much of the violence stems from the tribal laws and rules, not from Islam. The tribal leaders merely use Islam to justify the violence.

    Second, western (primarily US) interventionism caused a lot of hatred towards the west and one of those people who decided to take action was Osama Bin Laden who went on to found Al Queda. ISIS/ISIL/Daesh is an offshoot of Al Queda, so from a foundational perspective, without US interventionism, there would be no Al Queda or ISIS, at least not as we know them.

    If the US and other western countries were to pull out of the ME, it would not be a quick fix for the hatred that already exists. In fact, it would destabilize the region even further, most likely leading to even more hatred against the US/west, at least initially. And while I know this won't happen (at least not before ME oil runs out), I do think it is a necessary component of restoring a positive relationship with the people of the ME.


    I don't disagree with this, though I do disagree with the emphasis you place on Islam itself. Look to those with an agenda (western countries, western businesses, ME governments, ME tribal leaders, ME businesses, Al Queda, ISIS looking to form an extremist Islamic State, etc.) and you'll find where the blame should be placed.


    Yet you still blame Islam for their actions? Those two positions are diametrically opposed to one another.


    Sounds like just about every other cult or reform movement in the history of mankind.


    No religious text that I am familiar with actually makes sense when taken as a whole because they contradict themselves at every opportunity, leaving them open to interpretation, which is exactly why so many rulers use them to support their agenda - they can interpret the religious text in a manner that supports their agenda and these texts hold power over their followers.


    Take a look at how the royal families of these countries behave when vacationing in Las Vegas or Monaco and you'll see just how devout they truly are.


    Just to clarify, that's not what I said earlier as there are some who take these actions based on their religious beliefs. But most of these people are being manipulated to take that action by someone in a position of power with an agenda. For the record, this is what I said earlier.



    Theocratic governments use religion to control their subjects.

    The rest of that is mostly tribal laws and rules wrapped in a cloak of (selectively interpreted) Islam in order to make it acceptable to those subject to that particular tribal leader.

    As for the root cause of that extremism, look to tribal laws and western interventionism to explain a large portion of it. But the ME has been in turmoil and conflict since long before any of the current religions popular in the area came to be, so much of this is cultural as well. And cultural change in the ME is another component necessary in order for the ME to achieve a good relationship with the rest of world. Fortunately, this is much quicker and easier than changing the religion itself (just look where the US was 100 years ago, culturally, and where we are now (now meaning before Trump moves us 100 years back in time before leaving office)).
     
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  9. Insomnia

    Insomnia Needs more strings!

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    I don't really understand what you mean by tribal law though? Hasn't the ME been majority Islamic for hundreds upon hundreds of years? Wouldn't they draw their laws from the religions they believed in?

    And also, I think it depends which ISIS-affiliated terrorists you are talking about. Some of those who are affiliated with ISIS are strict Conservative Muslims who personally would never drink alcohol or take drugs or rape women.

    But the reason why I don't necessarily call ISIS an inherently Islamic organisation is simply because of the fairly large parts of its members who do not seem to be following fundamentally accepted teachings of the Qu'ran (like the rules on alcohol, for example, I've never seen any Muslim debate the theological meaning behind the prohibition of alcohol, unlike violence vs. peace).

    This sort of 'well, Christianity promotes violence too' and 'Christianity is contradictory too' is not a rebuttal to the legitimate criticism that Islam can be used to justify and inspire violence, it's just saying that a lot of other religions can. Christianity can be similarly interpreted as violent and hateful and bigoted, and is to this day by many, particularly in the US and Africa.
     
  10. tedtan

    tedtan SS.org Regular

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    Islam has only been around for roughly 1,300 years, whereas Middle Eastern tribes have been around (and often in conflict with one another) for tens of thousands of years. And some of the laws and rules of these various tribes that existed long before Islam came to be are still enforced today, they're just passed off as being Islamic laws rather than tribal laws so that they are accepted by the people of the tribe as they are Muslims these days.


    I didn't mention Christianity, but it, too, has been used to justify some petty terrible things.

    I think the take away here is that people with an agenda can selectively interpret and use any religion their subjects happen to follow as a means of manipulating and controlling the behavior of those subjects, not just Islam (or Christianity). And this goes beyond religion, it could be any other deep seated belief or emotion like nationalism or fear - we see this around us every day and have only to look at the history books to see where this has lead us in the past (but who actually pays attention to the teachings of history?).
     
  11. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    Couple points.

    1). re: tribal law being drawn from Islam, since the Middle East has been an Islamic majority region for millennia. The US was founded by Protestants, however our laws dictate the SEPARATION of church and state. As an American, maybe this just makes me more predisposed to assume at least the possibility for a secular basis for law, but, well, it's hardly unprecedented.

    2). re: ISIS not following Islam strictly - no shit. Again, they're a group with territorial ambitions, who have realized fueling an Islam vs. the West war is in their best interests for political unification. "We are at war with the West, we have always been at war with the West." Now, all that said, if IS aren't even devout Muslims, how exactly are we arguing that Islam is an inherently violent religion that needs to be reformed? The literally billions of devout Muslims in the world aren't crashing buses into shopping plazas, you know?

    3) "Christianity promotes violence too" is not a rebuttal of the criticism that Islam CAN be used to justify violence. It is, however, a rebuttal to the criticism that Islam is somehow UNIQUE in the risk it poses from the way it can be used to promote violence. It's not. Religion isn't even unique in the way it can be used to promote violence. Singling Islam out as somehow more of a threat than Christianity or white supremacy (last I checked, Trump hadn't proposed an alt-right travel ban) or any of a number of other reasons that drive people to kill is totally disingenuous. IS is a thread. Islam itself is not.
     
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  12. Insomnia

    Insomnia Needs more strings!

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    Islam is not unique, I never said that. It's just that it's still happening today, and we must address that issue and critique it.

    It has more potential than Christianity to cause violence simply because of the theological nature in which peace is taught in the Bible (Jesus brought peace as new revelation over 'eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth', for example) over how peace is taught in Islam (where it flip-flops on the issue rather than an older section of the Qu'ran being violent and a later section being peaceful, like the Bible), but that's not really an argument I think is that important to make.

    For whatever reason you believe it to be, there are vastly more Islamic terrorists than Christian and far-right terrorists across the world today. They pose a much larger threat to global stability and global relations than the far-right do, but that's not to say the far-right don't pose a threat, and it's not to say we should ignore them.

    And just a small point, Trump's proposed travel ban didn't ban people on the basis of being Muslim, it banned people entering from high-risk countries (whether the people trying to enter the US were Muslim or not was not a factor), and it comes from a list written by the Obama administration. He didn't ban the majority of Islamic countries, nothing like it, so it was obviously not a ban on Muslims.

    And religion is unique because it has the unique concept of a higher-power. An otherworldly being who will decide your fate, and by using this conviction that will supposedly determine your eternity, it is MUCH more powerful than non-religious far-left extremism or non-religious far-right extremism.

    (If you were referring to his reactionary position of 'a total shutdown of Muslim immigration to the United States' which, AFAIK was a reactionary policy and an emotional response to the San Bernadino attack, then yes, it was utterly stupid, but luckily, like so many of his policies, he's backtracked).
     
  13. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    The biggest problem with this whole "Islam is evil" argument that I have is that it is one small step away from blatant racism. I know religion and race are two totally different things, but most of the idiots out there ambushing "a-rabs" on the street for whatever psychotic idea of "revenge" they've cooked up don't make any discretion. I'm a white guy, but I grew up in a neighbourhood that was very diverse between different cultures. A big part of that melting pot was people from Iraq and Syria, who moved away to escape the persecution of Hussein and Assad, most of whom were Catholic. After 9/11, a lot of those folks faced persecution in the USA, because they spoke arabic and looked arabic. There was violence in the streets of Detroit, which is no surprise, I suppose, but people were being singled out for their skin colour. A lot of convenience stores operated by Assyrians were robbed and vandalized in my neighbourhood...

    Does anybody remember Slobodan Milosevic, or have we forgotten him? He wanted to round up all of the Muslim people (among others) in Yugoslavia and slaughter them. Do you want to think like that guy?!

    Look, no one is going to disagree that ISIS is a subset of Islam. But if you are going to blame Islam as a whole for these terrorist attacks, you might as well blame Christianity as a whole for World War II. Hell, the Bolsheviks embraced Atheism as their official religion, and persecuted people who wished to remain religious in the Soviet Union. Should we then blame Atheism for all of the massacres at the command of Stalin? Following that logic leaves you no legs on which to stand. Can't be religious because religions are used to command violent attacks. Can't be irreligious, because irrelegion is used to command violent attacks.
     
  14. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Matthew 10:34. Total peacenik stuff, for sure.

    Since you're evidently not an American I'll let this slide, but while the Trump administration claimed it wasn't a "Muslim Ban" but a ban on travel from high risk countries, Trump's own tweets on the subject have been pretty explicit that it was, and was designed to get a Muslim ban through the courts. Even recent tweets on the matter:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/view/arti...-tweets-tank-travel-ban-case-at-supreme-court
     
  15. Insomnia

    Insomnia Needs more strings!

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    I don't really see how the tweets shown in the article signify it as a ban against Muslims, I'm afraid...
     
  16. JohnIce

    JohnIce Singlecoils = tr00

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    What are your sources for this? I doubt this is actually the case. It's a big claim that would require a lot of statistics to back up. Granted not all countries label crimes the same way, what might be a hate crime in one country might be called a murder in another country and terrorism in the next country. I'm pretty sure that in Europe and the US, the far right does more damage to the local population by quite a wide margin. I know for a fact that's the case in Scandinavia. If you expand upon the "christian" side of things to include hate-crime against homosexuals in for example eastern europe, shit starts piling up. Then again terrorism, hate crime and politically motivated violence are three labels that may or may not be the same thing depending on your own viewpoint. But all in all, if you're gonna say there are "vastly more" islamic terrorists I'd like to see some sources before I believe you. Respectfully, because I honestly don't know myself.
     
  17. Insomnia

    Insomnia Needs more strings!

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    In the US, domestic far-right terrorism is objectively more of a threat than domestic Islamic terrorism, I know that and do not dispute that. But I'm talking about across the world. There are not hundreds of thousands of armed far-right terrorists in the world, we can see that.

    https://www.statista.com/topics/2267/terrorism/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism (the numerous sources it cites are very useful, if you don't trust Wikipedia itself as a source)

    I'd say that this shows how Islamic terrorist groups are by far the biggest thread on a global scale.

    And I really hate this next line of argument, because I know it's not even really logically coherent, but I would've thought it's quite obviously true that in this day and age, considering the amount of Islamic terrorist groups across the world and political instability in many Islamic-majority countries, you could see that (and even if you don't think this is actually caused by the religion, it's just groups 'twisting' the teachings of the Qu'ran) terror groups and terror attacks have destabilised so much of the world, that if you compare it to far-right terror attacks, Islamic terrorism is obviously more numerous and more organised.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2017
  18. JohnIce

    JohnIce Singlecoils = tr00

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    All the statistics I want to see in that link requires a $49 subscription. It doesn't really tell me anything. I do get the info that ISIL is responsible for the most terrorist attacks, but they only reach 12% on their own. What about the other 88%? I also see that the war zones in the middle east and North Africa suffer the most numerous attacks, but that's a given, they are war zones.

    And like I said, the difference between terrorism, hate crime, political violence and "homicidal maniac" varies from country to country. Even with statistics like the ones I can't see above, they're inconclusive. I'm sorry to be an ass about this but I just want to make sure you know what you're saying is true and not just based on guesses.
     
  19. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    I'd argue that the South American Cartels are doing far more damage globally than Islamic Extremists. At least directly.

    You don't hear as much in the way of large scale attacks, but they murder tens of thousands and often make gruesome examples of innocent people. All over the world.

    Not to mention the associated violence of the drug trade and our failed War On Drugs that has lead to more domestic issues than Islamic Terroists could ever hope.

    I mean we lock up and destroy the lives of millions of our own people over this stuff.

    Several of these groups are supposedly Christian and use the Bible to bring in new members and keep their existing members in line. Much like ISIS.
     
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  20. tedtan

    tedtan SS.org Regular

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    I understand the usage of the terms, but just as a tangential comment, since Islamic terrorists push for more fundamentalist interpretations of Islam and are about as conservative as it gets within their region(s), wouldn't Islamic terrorism technically be a subset of far right terrorism?
     

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