Yet another Islamic attack in London...

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Insomnia, Jun 3, 2017.

  1. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    So, this is something my boss constantly says when the topic immigrants to America comes up, especially H1B visas and refugees, and it's something like:

    If we help everyone to run away from the problems in their respective nations, it acts to empower the extremists who are left without any real resistance.

    You guys are all smarter than me, and especially him, so what do you think about that? Are we making militant Islamism more centralized, powerful, ostensibly "worse" by brain draining the Middle East? or should I say, letting the Middle East brain drain itself. Though I mostly disagree with the guy, the logic does make sense... but then again, isn't that also the exact reason why Americans are mostly ethnic Europeans? So it'd be hypocritical to say so. But it seems outwardly like a logically correct statement. I know that it happens on a smaller scale between states of the USA.
     
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  2. Insomnia

    Insomnia Needs more strings!

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    I have to wholeheartedly disagree with that. There are countless numbers of incredibly clever people who believe irrational things like the fables of the Bible and the Qu'ran. All the other parts of their academic lives are filled with logic and reason, but when it comes to religion, they chuck it right out the window. The religious conviction that is felt in religion is absolutely enough to push rational people into doing irrational things.
     
  3. JohnIce

    JohnIce Singlecoils = tr00

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    He was not kicked out for being an IS sympathizer, nor for being muslim. Don't assume things. In fact it's debatable whether he was either of those things, besides being pissed and violent. He was kicked out because he went through the same process as any immigrant, and after years building a life in Sweden he was told he couldn't stay.

    So back to the point, what I'm saying is we can't treat muslims as second class citizens and expect 100% of them to stay nice and obedient while they're spat at by the government, the job market and the media. Just a few days ago, a bus of 20-year old kids were sent out of Sweden to Kabul. Same day, a bomb kills 20 people and injures nearly 100 in Kabul. How on earth do you expect immigrants to feel safe and trust the authorities when they know that can happen to them at any time?
     
  4. Insomnia

    Insomnia Needs more strings!

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Stockholm_attack

    I highly doubt the Uzbek and Swedish intelligence services are going to make up a lie about a random guy who's been living there for years and years just because he's a Muslim, when they've let in thousands upon thousands of them with little to no (effective) background checks.

    And I'm not saying we need to treat Muslims like second-class citizens, I'm saying we need to understand a problem that, in fact, regardless of what you think are the causes of it (interventionism or religion), is increasingly prevalent within the worldwide Muslim community, and we need to do things about it.

    Sending people back to their country of origin does not constitute them killing people. There is literally no logic in wanting to stay in a country by killing citizens of it.
     
  5. JohnIce

    JohnIce Singlecoils = tr00

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    The problem I see with that line of thinking, is that IS' mission statement is to cause a rift between muslims and everyone else, by a) making muslims hate the west, and b) making the west hate muslims. For the west to shut out the refugees is exactly what they want. If during this process they can start some civil wars and left vs. right chaos in the US and Europe then all the better. Basically everything they want is happening.
     
  6. Insomnia

    Insomnia Needs more strings!

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    But we simply can't let in all refugees without security checks. That's silly. Sweden and Germany and France have seen the effects of what is essentially uncontrolled immigration to their countries.

    It may be what ISIS wants, but at the same time, I reckon it'd be more harmful for our country to let everyone in than to block people we simply can't vet, and make some of them resent us.

    Also, if they are legitimately fleeing ISIS from persecution, it's very unlikely them getting turned away from the West VS them getting their houses bombed and family members killed by ISIS will make them turn to ISIS...
     
  7. JohnIce

    JohnIce Singlecoils = tr00

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    This is why he was deported, according to the very link you provided: "Akilov arrived in Sweden on 10 October 2014. He claimed asylum,[58] saying he needed refuge from "the Uzbek security services which he claims tortured him and accused him of terrorism and treason". However, Sweden's Migration Board ruled that there was no evidence of this, and in late 2016, Akilov was ordered to leave Sweden within four weeks.[59] When he failed to do so voluntarily and did not appear at the Swedish Migration Agency when called, the case was referred to the police;[60] however, he went into hiding and could not be found for deportation.[61]"

    Who said anything about intelligence services making up lies about him being a muslim? You said he was deported for being an IS supporter, I simply said you were wrong. And according to your link, you were. Moving on.

    No, sending someone back to their home country doesn't mean they're gonna start killing people. We agree there. But forcing large groups of people seeking asylum to go back to where they're fleeing from, is bound to trigger a fight-for-your-life reaction in some people that can be very irrational, vengeful and desperate. In other words, migration is not something you can be heavy handed with because if you don't treat people as real people with fears and emotions and psyches, then you're increasing the risk of terrorism. Note: Increasing the risk, not getting full responsibility. I just want to be clear on that.
     
  8. JohnIce

    JohnIce Singlecoils = tr00

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    Sweden, Germany and France have seen the effects of terrorism. You can blame that on immigration generosity if you will, I don't. I blame terrorists for terrorism, immigrants are something else. There are white, far right terrorists making bombs, burning down houses and attacking people with knives in Sweden too.

    - edit - It seems you added something about the "rape crisis" in Sweden earlier on, and I can clarify that too because it's fallible. Sweden is a very, very feminist country. Our rape laws are very broad and encompassing a lot of things that might fall under assault or sexual harassment in other countries. We also count every instance of rape between the same two people, most countries don't. We also work very hard to fight the stigma around rape to get victims to actually press charges and feel supported by the community. That's why our rape statistics are very high, and we're proud of that. It means we're taking rape seriously, and more countries could learn from us. Lastly, the vast majority of rape in Sweden is by native swedish men, so there's that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2017
  9. Insomnia

    Insomnia Needs more strings!

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    Read that again, because quite frankly, you're wrong. The Swedish Immigration Board said that there was no evidence the Uzbek government were going to torture him, not that there was no evidence he was a supporter of IS.

    The Swedish Police (sorry, not the intelligence services, but they are incredibly closely linked, so I wasn't really that wrong...) said he had links to IS, as did the Uzbek government.

    And also, that means we're in a lose-lose situation. By taking in unvetted migrants, we increase our security risk immensely. By shutting the unvetted ones out (a totally reasonable demand), we also increase the terror risk because they resent us for not letting them in?

    Then what on earth are we supposed to do?
     
  10. JohnIce

    JohnIce Singlecoils = tr00

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    How am I wrong? You said he was deported for being an IS supporter. Your link says he was deported for not having a valid enough reason to be granted asylum. Those are two entirely different reasons. How is this unclear?

    As for your question on what on earth we're supposed to do, I agree we're in a lose-lose situation. However, to perform a terrorist attack you don't need to be a citizen. You can do that as a tourist. Hence, if someone goes through all the trouble of trying to get asylum in a country there's valid reason to believe they need it, at least in their own opinion. That's why I think avoiding terrorist attacks by means of heavier vetting of immigrants isn't necessarily a solution to anything.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2017
  11. Insomnia

    Insomnia Needs more strings!

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    Okay, but the Swedish Police themselves still found evidence.

    Also, you're wrong, it's so much easier to launch a large-scale terror attack as a citizen. They can gather arms, they can make long-term connections, have a base for their operations, do recon etc.

    We know there are thousands upon thousands of ISIS members and supporters across Europe, coming into Europe from outside (as well as some born here). So again, we really can shut out terror attacks.
     
  12. JohnIce

    JohnIce Singlecoils = tr00

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    While investigating the attack, after it happened. He was sentenced to be deported months earlier. Once again, he was not deported for being an IS supporter, why have we not moved past this yet?

    On the rest, I've made my point and you've made yours, clearly we disagree.
     
  13. tedtan

    tedtan SS.org Regular

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    Care to elaborate on how you propose "we" accomplish this?
     
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  14. tedtan

    tedtan SS.org Regular

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    Quite fucking true.


    Also quite fucking true.
     
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  15. tedtan

    tedtan SS.org Regular

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    We could try that, but it would involve the western world embargoing all Middle Eastern countries, including allies such as Saudi Arabia, UAE and Kuwait,and we would all pay A LOT more for gas/petrol, diesel, heating fuel, etc. Then, after five or ten or twenty years, we may have made a point or we may have merely added fuel to the already burning fire. Given the tensions in the area, I tend to lean towards the latter.
     
  16. tedtan

    tedtan SS.org Regular

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    ISIS is able to make military accomplishments in the Middle East because of the equipment they have, and the more accomplishments they make, the more powerful they become to their followers and potential followers. So the military equipment is one of the pillars supporting their power in the ME, and the more power they have, the more followers they can recruit, not just in the ME, but in western countries, too.

    As narad pointed out earlier in the thread, ISIS is already armed, so this point is more a discussion of how things got to where they are than one of an easy fix, but if we are able to prevent further military vehicles and weapons from falling into ISIS's hands while destroying what they currently poses, we can remove one of ISIS's pillars of power and hopefully ending the conflict sooner than would otherwise be possible.
     
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  17. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    With which thing I said are you disagreeing? That I'm sorry to read the news? That the PIRA started as a Catholic demonstration? That the PIRA is from Northern Ireland? That ISIS is a terrorist group hellbent on world destruction? That hatred is the real problem? What?

    Also, what are you getting at? What irrational things do those rational people do?

    I must be misunderstanding you because you were a little vague.

    I'm with the general consensus here, that there is no place to start with that. Jesus tried to reform Judaism and instead broke off into a new sect. Martin Luther tried to reform Catholicism and instead broke off into a new sect. Several folks have tried to reform Islam in the past, and each time, were either killed or broke off into a new sect.

    There is no such thing as reforming a religion. You form it, then after that there is only schism.

    Trying to reform anything from the outside is also impossible.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2017
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  18. Insomnia

    Insomnia Needs more strings!

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    I already explained how rational people (established scientists) can be persuaded into the irrational (Biblical fables of unproven magic which they see as the absolute truth).

    Christianity obviously has had a huge reform (yes there are breakaway sects, but I'm talking about the fact that the Christians now take preference to the NT than to the OT, whereas they used to take preference to the OT than the NT), and I think Islam can too.

    That's why I support people such as Maajid Nawaz and the Quilliam Foundation, and the Ahmadiyaah community. They actively promote the need for a re-think of Islamic theology and promote peace and love and kindness.

    I don't think a Western Government itself can reform a religion, but I think that we can encourage those inside the community to help reform it. The issue is that the Ahmadiyaah happen to be at ideological odds (it's complicated, I think it's along the lines of they believe that there were more true Prophets than Muhammad that spoke directly to God), and as such, are persecuted across the Islamic world. That means the most peaceful sect of Islam is getting shunned and attacked and members are getting killed by Muslims who see them as unislamic, even though the reason they are getting killed is not directly because they promote peace.

    When it comes to Maajid Nawaz and Quilliam, they receive heavy criticism from fairly high-profile figures both in the British Islamic community, and the wider Islamic community. They also receive quite a lot of death threats too. That's the issue, they're faced with threats of violence by calling for peace.
     
  19. Insomnia

    Insomnia Needs more strings!

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    See above.
     
  20. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    I'm looking through this thread and I don't see any specific examples. Was it in another thread?
     

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