Yet another Islamic attack in London...

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Insomnia, Jun 3, 2017.

  1. EdgeC

    EdgeC Songs in C#

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    Attempting to fight them doesn't work as you've rightly pointed out. It just sets the stage for the next generation and wastes millions of dollars. Terrorists win.

    Obviously, what terrorists want is for people to be afraid. They want people to live in fear and they want to erode the freedoms and liberties we take for granted. Government crackdowns, surveillance etc will only erode our civil rights. Terrorists win.

    So, we carry on as normal as possible while using appropriate means to attempt to prevent terrorism that don't impinge on our civil rights. And, most importantly, we try and reform the ways in which the media covers these events. Yes, we want to know what is going on but the rampant sensationalism give terrorists their platform and helps disseminate the fear they are trying to spread.

    And just remember, you'll never stop someone deciding one day to jump in a car and mow people down, or grab a kitchen knife and go on a rampage, regardless of their motivation. But what resorting to these 'low tech' methods does suggest is that the techniques used to prevent mass casualty events could be having an effect.
     
  2. chopeth

    chopeth SS.org Regular

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    I haven't read the 3 pages of this thead, just the first post.

    Better than "reform islam" :rolleyes: ... have you tried not financing and giving weapons to the countries from where this terrorism ideologically stems?
     
  3. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    Apparently this is only done by very small rural tribes, and only in certain regions. It's also not just muslim peoples either.

    I guess this happens in all different areas and denominations with similar small populations in a given area.

    I don't think genetically derived low IQ is to blame. Not going to school because the school was blown up, or the fear of such is what's keeping many in the Middle East uneducated, especially those too poor or resource derived to even have schools.
     
  4. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    Damn Obama! Giving these guys the trucks, bombs, and kitchen knives they then use against us! We must stop arming these lunatics!
     
  5. vansinn

    vansinn ShredNeck into Beck

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    I don't know why you keep commenting me like this, but will try..
    What is it you want from a discussion forum?
    To me, a discussion forum is like virtually meeting at the Greek Agora, where scholars and common people meet to discuss life, politics, finance, arts and what now..

    If I write something against the majority, I could either be right or wrong.
    If I'm right, in a discussion like the one taking place now, I'm being provocative simply by being in opposition, and as such, I'm adding something to a discussion which can be argued pro or against, like any other post; if I'm wrong, then so be it, and other posts may be in the right.

    However, if someone, like you, time again tries to ridicule me, all that may happen is that I'll bail out of such discussions, and as such, my comments, which could potentially carry value, potentially rendering an otherwise multi-facetted discussion with fewer facets.
    And I sometimes do get PM's from someone saying they feel I'm in the right; unfortunately they don't seem to take part in such discussions themselves, maybe for the exact reason that they know the same will happen to them: Attempted ridicule.

    Regarding the funny Cosmos thing; Cosmos is everywhere, it isn't outer space, which seems to be what you're trying to make it [me] look like.
    If you can't tolerate my comments which clearly differs a lot from yours, I might say that, by attempting to ridicule me, you might be said to live in your own inner-space of MSM-domination.
    This is of course quite provocative in it's own right.
    Now, I'm not at all against you, Narad, and I do read your contributions.
    I just wish you'd simply skip my comments when you dislike them.
    Peace man
     
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  6. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    Fair enough man - I don't mean any comment on here to be personally insulting -- I did find it funny to read a sort of conspiracy theory post, think "who wrote that?", scroll up, "oh! Cosmos guy!"

    As far as not replying to such comments, sure, request accepted. But I think in a thread on an attack that hits close to home for many of us, from a cause many of us have no doubts regarding, a radical/conspiracy post seems a bit insensitive. I'm sure families of 9/11 casualties are probably not so fond of discussing jet fuel / steel beams -- not that this attack hits *that* close to home for me.

    I mean you're saying the hebdo hit was committed by a white man, to frame isis, and further empower governments with support for more militarization? Surely I don't have to point out that Islam is a religion and not a race, which seems to undercut that example?
     
  7. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    Come on Narad, you know what he meant.

    If these groups weren't using American and Soviet equipment they wouldn't have 1/1000th the following they have.

    The strength and capabilities of organized ISIS fighters in the Middle East fuels thier ability to influence lone wolf and shoestring insurgency in the West.
     
  8. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    It's possible or even plausible, but if we could go back in time and destabilize without leaving weapons behind, I'm not convinced it would really have any bearing on the isolated incidents of terrorism. I imagine that's just speculation on either side.

    Now if they didn't have their own versions of SSO with new-beheading-day posts, I think that would stem some of these attacks.
     
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  9. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    Do you think any of the serious groups would still be around if they didn't have millions of dollars in military hardware, stolen and otherwise?
     
  10. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    I'm just not going to believe I have any clue as to what portion of isis armaments comes from us / Russia / other, leftovers, what is purchased, etc. But I know these were not the types of weapons used in any of the London or Paris attacks so when it comes to preventing these things, I don't find it relevant.
     
  11. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    I didnt think that was going to be such a tough question, so I'll simplify it.

    Do you think ISIS would still be around as a fighting force if they didn't have conventional military weapons?

    A second question:

    Do you think these more recent attacks, where more primitive and improvised weapons are used, would occur if ISIS didn't exist?
     
  12. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    That's not the chain of thought in this thread though: the tense is wrong. OP starts but asking what we can do to stop more attacks, other guy suggests not arming them, and now you're talking about whether it was important that they had the weapons in the first place.

    Unless there's some subtext about preventing further weapons from falling into their hands that I'm missing?? In which case, sure, but they seem sufficiently armed already.
     
  13. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    We're not talking about the OP still, we've moved on.

    We're talking about what all got us in this predicament to begin with. The thread being is it Islam's fault or the West's fault for kicking the Middle East around for over a century and then arming them.

    Though, I suppose I'm also asking whether the end of ISIS will bring an end to these attacks.
     
  14. asfeir

    asfeir SS.org Regular

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    The hatred against the "west" has been around for a long time, but It didn't really materialized into attacks until recently. From that point on, I think it will be hard for the small isolated attacks to stop.
    Also, is there an "end of ISIS"? the idea of an Islamic state will probably stay even if the current fighters are defeated.
     
  15. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    Is there some context I'm missing? There have been attacks by Middle Eastern terrorists on Western non-military targets for decades.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2017
  16. asfeir

    asfeir SS.org Regular

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    Sure but I was thinking about the increase in the number of "small" attacks where a guy stabs a couple of people or when someone runs over a crow with his vehicle in the name of islam.
     
  17. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    So sorry to read about this.



    For those of you comparing the IRA and ISIS - the PIRA (the branch of the IRA responsible for violence in the 1970's stemming from Northern Ireland) started off from a pro-Catholic public demonstration that escalated quickly between Catholic partisans and police. The huge difference, though, is that the PIRA wanted political change in Northern Ireland, and ISIS wants only the apocalypse. There is no political change that will placate ISIS, short of world destruction.

    How can an organization set such an unreasonable goal? The answer is not Islam, although it is a tool corrupted by these people in order to grasp control of the weak willed. What these folks use as their not-so-secret ingredient in polarizing their own people to the point where they are willing to kill not just themselves, but everyone and everything they've ever known is pure hatred. It's a double-edged weapon: the more they hate us, the stronger they are, and the more we hate them, the more they are enabled.

    When the USA invades a place like Syria, it supercharges these bastards. If the USA bombs someone's hometown and blows up everything that person ever knew, a free radical is created, harboring a hatred beyond what can be contained by political change. And through millennia of crusades and warfare in the middle east, the west has not just created a bunch of radicalized individuals, but an entire culture of hatred.

    God and religion are ideological inventions. As such, you cannot motivate a rational person to do irrational things merely because of religion or God. Therefore, hatred, in the name of religion, the name of God, is still just hatred.
     
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  18. JohnIce

    JohnIce Singlecoils = tr00

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    There's a proportionate increase in "small" attacks on muslims and refugees too though. Far-right parties are growing in practically every european country, and the US, well let's not even talk about it. In Sweden, something like 90 buildings meant for housing refugees burned last year. Such crimes are rarely solved while refugees and immigrants are kicked out of european countries in increasing numbers. A guy drove a truck into a crowd in Stockholm recently, he had just found out he was getting kicked out of Sweden. To me there's no doubt in my mind that the increasing hatred and hostility towards muslims in Europe and the US is fanning the flames and creating more terrorism. You can't let a guy like Trump become president and expect everyone he's villainizing to just sit quiet and take it.
     
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  19. Insomnia

    Insomnia Needs more strings!

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    There's another thing I find a bit strange about your overall argument. Yes, we've intervened in the ME, we've really ****ed up in most cases. But we've also armed them, we've trained them, we've worked with them and their communities in some cases too.

    I'm not saying the damage to them = the help we've given them. But from an ideological perspective, arming them is surely not likely to increase the amount of radicals and the radical philosophy, just reduce their overall arms storage?
     
  20. Insomnia

    Insomnia Needs more strings!

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    You think it's fair to say 'we can't kick Muslims or migrants out (and they kicked him out because he was an IS sympathiser, not because he was Muslim) because if we try to, they end up killing dozens of people'?

    Does that not show that there's a huge problem with the amount and kinds of migration entering Europe?

    And the attacks on the migrant housing are disgusting. Really, really disgusting. And I hope you don't take this to sound like I'm justifying it, but those attacks are reactionary. They're reactionary to the rape crisis going on in Sweden, they're reactionary to the dozens of terror attacks.

    We need to stop the far-right, but also stop the things that create the reactionary movement and push them into the extreme.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2017
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