Yet another Islamic attack in London...

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Insomnia, Jun 3, 2017.

  1. downburst82

    downburst82 SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    1,349
    Likes Received:
    155
    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2011
    Location:
    North Vancouver
    Isis is an Evil religion...so yes the followers of that extreme sect of Islam join for the evil and have it nurtured. Like Christians that support the westboro baptist church (or other religious organizations with similar ideals).

    I have been to church most of my life and ive never heard a sermon on how gay people are going to hell...but If I wanted to hear that message there are churches that will be sure to tell me that..in fact they make it there main message.

    I would imagine most Muslims have never had it preached to them to go enforce muslim beleifs with extreme violence...but if they are looking for it there are violent sects of islam that have made that their main focus.
     
    setsuna7 likes this.
  2. asfeir

    asfeir SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    472
    Likes Received:
    94
    Joined:
    May 21, 2013
    Location:
    Lebanon
    Who is the "we" that needs to reform Islam? If you mean the West needs to reform Islam than we're in for a long ride. If reforms don't come from within they will never happen.

    So like a lot of you pointed out, Isis are a very radical sect of Islam, and I think they are only able to attract the very poor, barely educated people, and they can give them a target and justify it with interpretations of their book.

    I'm (/was born) catholic and come from a country where it's basically 50-50 Christians/ Muslims and while I wouldn't say that we live in perfect harmony today, attacks between Christians and Muslims stopped happening for at least 30 years.
    I recently moved to Dubai where there is the sharia law, but yet it's less strict every year, and locals are more and more open to people with different beliefs.
     
    zappatton2 and JohnIce like this.
  3. Insomnia

    Insomnia Needs more strings!

    Messages:
    321
    Likes Received:
    42
    Joined:
    May 24, 2015
    Location:
    London
    That is demonstrably untrue. Educated and sometimes quite rich people leave the West (or rich areas on the ME) to join ISIS, and other Islamic terror groups.
     
    AxeHappy likes this.
  4. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    5,024
    Likes Received:
    1,594
    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2009
    Location:
    Cambridge, UK
    But it's not the yacht club either. I think it's safe to say there are a number of factors, and in addition to poverty / lack of education, some degree of misfitted-ness or marginalization (socially or from being a muslim in a largely non-muslim community) has also been cited in previous attacks.

    I think it gives their lives meaning, not wholly through religious devotion, but from having a network of internet buddies and knowing that any act you carry out will receive global recognition and praise amongst thousands of other ISIS guys all over the world. And there's a lot of people who just aren't finding significant meaning in their lives -- that's hard to fight against!
     
    JoshuaVonFlash and JohnIce like this.
  5. StevenC

    StevenC SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    2,020
    Likes Received:
    331
    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Location:
    Northern Ireland
    As a person from Northern Ireland, I think it's awfully cute to think Islam is special with its role in terrorism. The only people I know here who disagree are former terrorists.
     
    JoshuaVonFlash and Explorer like this.
  6. Insomnia

    Insomnia Needs more strings!

    Messages:
    321
    Likes Received:
    42
    Joined:
    May 24, 2015
    Location:
    London
    The IRA were different though. They were a political independence movement. They were generally confined to a geographical area. Islam, however, breeds terrorism throughout the world.
     
  7. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

    Messages:
    25,914
    Likes Received:
    2,772
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2008
    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    You couldn't be more wrong about the Qu'ran.

    https://www.thoughtco.com/top-myths-about-islam-2004189

    Hadiths are difficult. A lot of mainstream Islamic scholars identify most of them as being fabricated by by tribal chiefs to control thier tribes. For instance Shite and Sunni follow a different set of Hadiths. Most are benign, so I wouldn't put that at the top of the list.

    The fundamentalist teachings, when taught by a group such as ISIS is a big problem and it's mainly a problem because of the last part: western intervention.

    It's a harsh pill to swallow, but our meddling in the Middle East has caused all of this. If you had subjected any sub-developed people to what we have you'd wind up with these problems.

    A company sponsored by a television agency promoting a biased, inflammatory show asked ~1000 devout muslims at a meeting of devout muslims what they think.

    Do you really think it would be any different if they asked 1000 very "devout" Catholics?

    You mean 50% of .05%.
     
  8. Insomnia

    Insomnia Needs more strings!

    Messages:
    321
    Likes Received:
    42
    Joined:
    May 24, 2015
    Location:
    London
    That website you linked as an apparent rebuttal to my claim just shows peaceful verses. There are many peaceful verses, there are many violent verses. It totally depends on how your interpret the Qu'ran, and neither interpretation is more valid than the other, because they both disregard vast swathes of the Qu'ran.

    The 52% poll comes from ICM. How exactly are they biased? How are they promoting an inflammatory show?

    They asked Muslims across the country, they didn't specifically ask devout and fundamentalist Muslims. ICM aren't biased, they are a goverment-registered, non-partisan member of the British Polling Council.

    Also, polls for Christians actually show the majority of Christians in Britain support the legalisation of gay marriage, let alone asking them if they want homosexuality itself to be illegal. So no, it's different.

    Your excuse of 'ooh, it's Western Interventionism!' is demonstrably wrong. Muslims in Egypt attacked a bus full of Christians a few weeks ago. They only spared Muslims, they killed everyone who was non-Muslim. Look at the 13 Islamic nations who still, in the modern day, execute homosexuals. And that bus attack really isn't a one-off case. I can find hundreds of examples of terror attacks against specifically non-Muslim people across the world.

    How is that because of Western interventionism? How is that NOT because of Islam?

    I really don't want to get banned for all this, but I really do want to hear your opinion.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2017
    AxeHappy likes this.
  9. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

    Messages:
    25,914
    Likes Received:
    2,772
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2008
    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Sounds a lot like every holy text.

    They went into areas of poor, predominantly uneducated muslims. It was not a random sampling from the general muslin population. And the sample size itself was hilariously small to draw such wide reaching conclusions.
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...hat-do-muslims-think-skewed-poll-wont-tell-us

    Depends on your flavor of Christianity. Some go more liberal some more conservative.

    Do you legitimately not know the history of the Middle East? Not being a jerk, I'm asking honestly. You brought up intervention from the west first, what were you referring to?

    Here's a basic primer:

    http://www.globalissues.org/article/119/the-middle-east-conflict-a-brief-background
    http://www.globalissues.org/issue/103/middle-east

    Basically, a couple hundred years of exploitation through violence and colonialism turned a bunch of small, poor tribes and kingdoms into global issues. Where do you think these groups got thier money, weapons and training?

    We created the warlords who indoctrinate the poor and uneducated into becoming terrorists. Why are those people poor and uneducated? Because we used thier homes as a sandbox of war and resource plundering for generations.

    The instability we've fostered in the region has lead to disenfranchised youth who are easy to mold into what is now ISIS and was Taliban and was the various incarnations previously.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2017
    Millul and AngstRiddenDreams like this.
  10. 7 Strings of Hate

    7 Strings of Hate Mid-Level Asshole Contributor

    Messages:
    8,446
    Likes Received:
    1,130
    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2007
    Location:
    St.Louis USA
    We all love a little violence. We are humans. But I watch UFC or NFL or something. If religion wasn't there telling people to do fucking horrible things, they would still want some violence, but you can still satisfy that part of the species in other ways than murder. And of course there are always going to be people that do bad shit. Theres no avoiding that. But again, theres no avoiding that.
     
    StevenC likes this.
  11. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

    Messages:
    25,914
    Likes Received:
    2,772
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2008
    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Religion is but a tool to control the poor, uneducated and disenfranchised in this case.
     
    tedtan and StevenC like this.
  12. vansinn

    vansinn SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    2,928
    Likes Received:
    165
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2007
    I see a lot of comment about ISIL/IC/Daesh being a radical mechanism off Islam.
    Fact is that it grew out of Al-qaeda, which in turn was created from the West we live in.
    Daesh basically formed in an Iraki prison camp (forgot the name of it), where a few "prisoners" had free access to roam around and were even permitted to leave camp - so they could meet handlers outside of camp.

    The terrorist attacks seen all over Europe are created by design; they're part of the Neocon's International Tour d'Terror, with the purpose of destabalisation and terrorizing the minds of the peoples.
    This is essentially a variant of one of the most used doctrines of population control throughout history: Problem-Response-Solution.
    Present the problem and repeat it; get the people's response, and then present the solution.
    Do it enough, and the people will demand action taken, and be ready to accept more military and police in armor with semi-automatics.

    As such, it's also a derivative of the Total War Doctrine:
    Total War added the population as a full target, no one were to be left feeling even reasonably secure. The more [minds] that could be terrorized, the more damage could be imposed onto a country.

    But... this isn't how Western corporate main stream media spells it out; rather, they report as commanded, to support the agenda towards world disorder and more war, like, oh gosh, wouldn't it be sexy with a real religious war?
    So it's no wonder so many thinks it's all about Islamic terrorists doing the deeds.

    Try a re-check of the Charlie Hebdo event: The killers were dark-skinned Islamic terrorists, were they not? Only, one the videos revealed clothes slipping up on an arm, revealing.. tada.. light skin. They exit the building, taking time to change mags, needs to turn the get-away car around 'couse they parked in the wrong direction. A single police car approaches, AK47 out the window, ratatatata, but not a single hole of crushed glass in the police car. And so on...

    These arranged terrorist attacks are so see-through.
    Which does not at all make the deeds any less terrible; however, the most severe of this is that fact that so many eats MSM reports all too easy.

    And about the Quaran talking about killing infidels.. well, the bible pretty much says the same, including doing nasty things to gays (not speaking on their behalf, just referring).

    Peace, stringin' bro's
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2017
  13. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    5,024
    Likes Received:
    1,594
    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2009
    Location:
    Cambridge, UK
    Yup. Livin' in the cosmos.
     
    Dcm81 and StevenC like this.
  14. Insomnia

    Insomnia Needs more strings!

    Messages:
    321
    Likes Received:
    42
    Joined:
    May 24, 2015
    Location:
    London

    Fair point, didn't realise that they were such poor areas. But I do have a question (which I couldn't find an answer to) which is: how many Muslims live in these 20% Muslim+ areas?

    Also, again, I don't see how Western Interventionism (even if they did cause instability and funded these armed groups) would cause these groups to execute homosexuals, to want to kill Arab Christians, to want to oppress women's rights, and then to justify it with their holy book? Why would colonialism cause them to hate gays? It's their book that tells them that gays are evil and despicable and deserve to burn in the hell fire for eternity.

    I know why Western interventionism causes them to hate the West, sure, but not the groups I've mentioned.

    I know the origins of ISIS. I know that under the Obama administration, it was allowed to grow and spawn. I believe that one of the key, founding members was a man released from Guantanamo under the Obama administration.
     
  15. StevenC

    StevenC SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    2,020
    Likes Received:
    331
    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Location:
    Northern Ireland
    Yeah, but Islam started about 5-600 years after Christianity. You'll never guess what Christianity was doing 5-600 years ago.

    Up until 9/11 the IRA would go to America to raise funds from "Irish" Americans who didn't understand the situation. That ended because they then understood what terrorism was. But you could also mention the UDA, UVF and the INLA. And there politics was as sophisticated as that of Islam: they're different; blow them up.

    And don't forget that one side was doing it in the name of the Pope and the other in the name of the Queen. Who, as well as political leaders, are the heads of religious bodies.
     
  16. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

    Messages:
    25,914
    Likes Received:
    2,772
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2008
    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    I'm not sure why you're latching onto Islam specifically. Religious folks in general are not very accepting of the LGBT community.

    But all those groups you mentioned are soft targets. They're marginalized groups within the given region and thus are easy for militants of any denomination to attack.

    Terrorism is built in fear and the more bloodshed the better. Easier targets are easier to destroy in purposefully shocking ways.

    Also, before we get all high and mighty it wasn't until relatively recently that the British government stopped chemically castrating gay men which lead to countless early deaths and suicides.

    The LGBT community has it rough, it's just a little messier in less developed parts of the world.
     
    JoshuaVonFlash and JohnIce like this.
  17. Insomnia

    Insomnia Needs more strings!

    Messages:
    321
    Likes Received:
    42
    Joined:
    May 24, 2015
    Location:
    London
    I'm harking on Islam because they're still the ones doing it, they're using teachings from their holy book to justify the killings and oppression, just like Christianity has. I blame both religions for their extremely harmful faults.

    Gays getting killed by Muslims is the fault of Islam. Gays getting killed by Christians is the fault of Christianity. That is pure and simple. They have been oppressed and hated because of the ingrained hatred of gays throughout most religions.
     
  18. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

    Messages:
    25,914
    Likes Received:
    2,772
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2008
    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    You're ignoring all of South America and most of Asia then.

    Look up LTTE, FARC, Shining Path and the NPA.

    But they don't fit the narrative, so they're ignored even though until the more recent rise of ISIS they killed tens of thousands.
     
  19. Adam Of Angels

    Adam Of Angels The GAS Man Contributor

    Messages:
    8,731
    Likes Received:
    719
    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2008
    Location:
    Mount Pleasant, PA
    Max, look up inbreeding in Middle Eastern, predominantly Muslim countries, and you might find another piece of the puzzle. I don't think I ever heard about it until very recently, but it surprised me. I don't know exactly how prevalent it is, I'm not an expert and won't pretend to be, but my guess is that it might be easier to radicalize an inbred believer than one with an above average IQ.
     
  20. mongey

    mongey SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    2,026
    Likes Received:
    117
    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2012
    Location:
    the gong - Australia
    it is truly terrible

    decades of western interference and violence in the middle east created the violence of isis

    I don't think is a problem the west can solve. we'll bomb them and the children of the dead will grow up hating more . at this point I don't know WtF we do .once people are getting into cars and mowing people down , you have lost all control
     

Share This Page