Yet another Islamic attack in London...

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Insomnia, Jun 3, 2017.

  1. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    It's trolling when you're making short, unsubstantiated statements that I think I can speak for everyone else who commented on your last two posts in saying we all had no fucking clue what you were talking about, but it sure looked like you were trying to stir the pot. :lol:

    Besides, it's also a liiiiiiiittle harder to buy a gun north of the border. :lol: Maybe we could start there!
     
  2. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    In the "Trump make it" topic, I believe it was CF who asked for liberals to provide evidence of a particular point, and then ignored responses providing evidence while claiming no such responses has been made.

    In this topic, he's proving that he is the one incapable of making reasoned responses and providing supporting evidence, while providing a strong counterexample to the claim that conservatives are the ones who use evidence and reason to reach their conclusions.

    I'm curious if he can marshall the resources to respond to the evidence undercutting his attempt to use Canada as support for his views, or if he'll just make more short, unsubstantiated statements, even on completely unrelated points in order to distract. That would definitely be trolling, instead of intelligent discussion.

    One great point CF makes though is that Trump is endangering the lives of US citizens by not advocating for US gun control. It has been an odd point that conservatives in the US have fought to allow potential and suspected terrorists access to guns. How stupid is that?

    Given the rush to judge entire classes of people in life-changing ways with no deliberation (voter disenfranchisement, everyone from a "dangerous country" being banned instead of dangerous persons) as well as focusing purely on one type of terrorism instead of looking at threat assessment numbers to decide the best resource allocation, their sudden need to protect against overreaching law is an easily observed sham.

    Still, CF might surprise us by following the evidence behind his most recent attempted distraction. I'm hopeful he's actually going to change his ways this time by using all the available evidence, and even stating that the gun control aspects are something that US conservatives are wrongly opposing.

    I'm not expecting or counting on it, but evidence and reason would be a nice change from CF.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2017
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  3. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    I feel that when it comes to judgement on the basis of ability to ratify your opinion using real information, Republicans/conservatives have an inherent disadvantage. Most of their policy isn't supported by anything like numbers, statistics, information-- rather it's usually comprised entirely of emotional appeals and callbacks to traditionalism as though the past were necessarily better than now, which is usually measurably untrue. Some examples:

    • Trickledown economics... this sh/t has been debunked thousands of times over--not to mention our present state of divide between rich and poor despite being the richest nation with the most billionaires. Yet it's still somehow Trump and the Republicans' single most pushed economic policy, and somehow republican voters still think that it's going to work.
    • Denying the human impact on climate change
    • Women's rights, specifically on the right to choose, is literally an appeal to religious superstition--and not even a universal one. Yeah, we don't let them actually pass that horeshit, but our sitting president literally said during his campaign that he wants to punish women who get abortions. I'm convinced that when he pantomimed a partial birth abortion during the 2nd debate is when he garnered the evangelical vote.
    • Insisting that danger of foreign Islamic terror in the United States being greater than domestic terrorists.
    • Insisting that stricter gun control laws would somehow create more gun violence.
    The list goes on and on and on

    I guess my real point is just that the expectation that Cap'n F would be able to defend his opinions with real information even if he wanted to and tried and put in the effort is probably setting the bar too high--completely out of reach, even... Not even the smartest of Republican debaters would be able to do it.

    However, the reality is that our governance is less dependent on real information than it is dependent on what people want, irrespective of whether or not it makes any fucking sense.
     
  4. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    That may be why the modern GOP has increasingly become anti-science; not just because science supports the conclusion that humankind is causing climate change, which is inconvenient for them, but the broader fact that science and statistical analysis and empirical observation have provided some pretty clear counter-arguments to dearly-held right-wing positions, so they have to choose between, say, the scientific method, and believing that raising the minimum wage will cause large scale job loses and make things more expensive for everyone. Or, try to argue some middle ground where somehow Seattle is different, and it didn't happen there due to specific local factors (that may or may not exist) that would prevent the lessons learned there from being applied more broadly, etc.
     
  5. CapnForsaggio

    CapnForsaggio Cap'n (general)

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    I honestly don't remember stating those particular opinions, or being a "republican".

    Basically, unless you are adressing someting that I have said, please leave my name out of your mouths.
     
  6. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    Ah yes, the "I'm libertarian" or "I'm independent" defense. If it looks like a republican, and quacks like a republican, as far as it pertains to the topic you're discussing, you might as well be republican.
     
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  7. CapnForsaggio

    CapnForsaggio Cap'n (general)

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    Can you show me where I made those GOP arguments?

    I don't know why you have to be fascists, place words in my mouth, and demonize my POV....

    I bet you all still don't understand why Trump won in the first place. Hint: you are the reason.
     
  8. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    No one claimed that you had made those GOP arguments. I was making a point entirely separate from your presence in PC&E. I just used you as a way to tie it together with Explorer's comment. I probably should have worded it differently, because my main point was about republicans in general, and not about you as an individual, though I did imply that that you are republican, which I assumed you were based on everything I've ever seen you write here.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2017
  9. CapnForsaggio

    CapnForsaggio Cap'n (general)

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    There are some overlapping ideas in modern conservatism and libertarianism... sure. Can you show me where I was acting "republican"?

    I want to make sure that i don't do that anymore, else I become the strawman for this entire thread. Oh wait....
     
  10. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    Just FYI, in Political Science libertarianism and conservatism are on two different scales. Being more or less libertarian doesn't affect whether or not you are a conservative. As conservatism and liberalism are diametrically opposed, so are libertarianism and authoritarianism. What I'm trying to say is: self-identifying as libertarian does not in any way imply that you aren't conservative/republican.
     
  11. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    I did adress something you said, and pointed out that you were attempting to stupidly narrow how Canada dealt with and continues to deal with terrorism to something equivalent to Trumps muslim ban.

    I pointed out that in a different topic, you kept claiming that no one had responded to your question, in spite of numerous people pointing out that you had gotten your answer.

    I acknowledged that you had inadvertently made a great point about Trump endangering the lives of US citizens by not advocating for gun control as well.

    I also pointed out, given your typical drive-by trolling without actual evidence, that I don't expect you to be able to address the complete picture in an intelligent way, but that I hope you will surprise me this time.

    Basically, if you missed that I was addressing what you said, and how you seem unable to use the complete evidence to make your case, please keep the whining in your mouth. Don't make excuses, just make your case like an adult.
     
  12. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    Really? Pretty sure Hillary won my state...
     
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  13. JohnIce

    JohnIce Singlecoils = tr00

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    Another quite infuriating thing for someone like me who's sitting on the other side of the pond, is the republican slamming of other more "socialist" countries to make conservatism look better, Cinderella's step family style. Fox news did a whole push about Sweden where I live, after Trump on an anti-immigration rant said "look what happened last night in Sweden!" at some rally, and he didn't specify what it was cause literally nothing happened here. So Fox gets a swedish ex con private security thug with white supremacist ties to pose as a "Swedish national security expert" on air, they cut up interviews with swedish police to make it look like they said we had "no go zones" of violent immigrants, just lots of stuff like that with the only purpose of slandering Sweden. Why? Because Sweden, like Canada and Germany and many other places where more Bernie Sanders style politics have been implemented for decades, are actually doing very fucking fine. That's the big secret they don't want americans to know about. We might not have as many billionaires as the US, but instead we chose to have waaaay less poverty, homelessness, violent crime, illness and inequality, which paves the way for everything a society needs to blossom, including opportunity to get rich if that's what you want. We're not run by Stalin, never were. Yet I still get american friends checking up on me on facebook with things like "I'm seeing what's happening in Sweden right now, you need to be careful!". Hell, the band Kansas just cancelled a festival gig here cause they were worried about security :lol: It's just so incredibly ridiculous and it's ALL just republican propaganda to make americans think that no matter how much they're screwed over, all other countries have it worse so don't start anything. After Trump pulled out of the Paris Agreement, I think if the US keeps this up the rest of the world is just gonna move further into what some people are already calling the "post american" age. And I don't say that as a good thing, nothing good can come of military superpowers being alienated. But this "America First!" crap is gonna have that effect if nothing changes.
     
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  14. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    On the plus side, at 147 Days of Restocking the Swamp by Moscow's Man in the White House, we're already a fifth of the way there to when the winners of the midterm elections are sworn in. Hopefully that will limit whoever is then President, whether it be a pre-impeachment or pre-resignation-and-pardoned-by-Pence Trump, or Pence discharging his pardoning duties to Trump, due to a shift in congressional power away from the Republicans.
     
  15. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    We should probably pause to acknowledged that there was ANOTHER terrorist attack over the weekend in London, when a driver slammed a van into a crowd of Muslims leaving a mosque during Ramadan, and is being treated as an anti-Muslim hate crime; the attacker was evidently blowing kisses to the crowd as he was arrested, and was screaming about how he wanted to kill Muslims during the attack.

    Insomnia and Captain, I'm sure you'll be wanting to explain why we need to ban white middle aged men from this country, for the safety of our religious groups. Go on, I'll be waiting.
     
  16. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    I'm especially interested in @CapnForsaggio and @Insomnia explaining how this man was radicalized and transformed into a terrorist.
     
  17. Insomnia

    Insomnia Needs more strings!

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    This man was radicalised through two channels. The long-term issues would be with publications/attitudes like that of The Sun, the EDL, Daily Mail, Britain First (amongst other low-brow, right-wing material), who peddle hatred and division and alienation.

    The second, and more 'immediate' cause would be the spate of terror attacks we've seen from Muslims this year alone in the UK. Combine that with the EDL/Sun/DM/BF rhetoric of 'all Muslims', and voila, you have a terrorist.
     
  18. JohnIce

    JohnIce Singlecoils = tr00

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    One could argue that the public and media response to islamist terrorism vs. anti-muslim terrorism plays a part too. From what I've seen the amount of each has been rather proportionate, but the way each crime is given media coverage is not. I think part of that is a sense of security amongst the general public in predominantly white and christian/secular countries that regardless of what white right-wing terrorists do, YOU in the majority are not the target and thus it's treated as less dangerous even though it's the same amount of violence. That's yet another problem as that is another way to passively alienate muslims and immigrants which in turn can spark more violence, creating a vicious circle of back and forth retaliation.
     
  19. Insomnia

    Insomnia Needs more strings!

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    I think that's a fair point, but in practice, attacks against minorities do get the same amount of coverage and generate outrage. In some cases, especially the UK (the US is quite different), it seems that some are more sympathetic to the attacks from those in the minority than those in the majority.
     
  20. Insomnia

    Insomnia Needs more strings!

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    You wanted me to talk to you in here. So, answer my question. Cheers! :)
     

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