Would this work? 8 String guitar (multi scale) WITHOUT angled pickups

Discussion in 'Extended Range Guitars' started by bnzboy, Feb 27, 2018.

  1. A-Branger

    A-Branger SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    3,538
    Likes Received:
    960
    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2015
    Location:
    QLD, Australia
    and you know the bridge follows the same imaginary fret possition? thats the whole idea of it.

    and yes, the pickups are actually at the same distance to the bridge, thing is that its a multisclae instrument, so same way a 24fret (and nut and other frets) are at a different possition from the bridge on the low and high strings, the pickups need to be at a different angles so they can be at the ideal spot
     
  2. ixlramp

    ixlramp SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    2,161
    Likes Received:
    836
    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Location:
    UK
    Winspear nailed it yet again in both posts.
    I also consider that lower strings need more brightness, while high strings are already inherently bright so if anything need more warmth, so i would prefer the pickups are angled to be biased towards the bridge for the lower strings, the opposite of a fanned guitar with non-angled pickups.

    TouchGuitars U8:
    DSC2412-72dpi.jpg
     
    EverDream and Winspear like this.
  3. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

    Messages:
    12,766
    Likes Received:
    3,998
    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Location:
    California
    Yeah, I’ve been asking for a few years why no one does a super-fan pickup arrangement like that. It just seems to make the most sense. Instead, we get the opposite angle - at least on strats and some super strats.
     
  4. crackout

    crackout SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    262
    Likes Received:
    294
    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2015
    Location:
    Augsburg
    I don't see why the pickups/polepieces shall lie on an imaginary fret. Especially, if you continue drawing fret lines, they get packed so close together that by the time you reach the bridge the difference in position doesn't really matter anymore. The important aspect is that you have a fixed node at the bridge, not on imaginary frets. The further away yo go from that fixed node the more overtones, amplitude and thus warmth you get.
     
  5. Winspear

    Winspear Tom Winspear Vendor

    Messages:
    10,905
    Likes Received:
    1,492
    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2009
    Location:
    Southend-on-Sea, Essex, U.K
    Right - If you were saying "why they follow the imaginary frets" in terms of angle increasing more towards the bridge, that has been explained in terms of keeping tone even across the nodes.
    If what you're saying is "why do the polepieces have to line up exactly with an imaginary fret/node" - good question. You'll see a lot of pickup science applied to this particularly in the crowd talking about why 22 fret guitars are better ("because the pickup can sit over the 24th fret octave node"). I agree it's not really important at all. First off it only applies in that particular example to the open strings. Once you fret any notes, you're no longer over their octave node etc. I like the sound of 22 fret pickup placement but that's just because it's warmer, not because of some node specifics.
    The positions of nodes are all thrown out by intonating the bridge anyway, up to several mm on the bass strings!
    So yeah - doesn't matter if the polepieces don't sit exactly over an imaginary fret, just that they follow the angle that a fret would be in that position if you want an even tone.

    The pickup placement on that instrument looks excellent @ixlramp - and if you look at the intonation of the saddles you can see it's just a little more like a 'true' straight pickup in terms of balance anyway, so not really biased too much at all. I intend to place pickups on fanned instruments too in a much similar compensated way.
    I suppose you could say it's lining up with where the harmonics once intonated would be found, rather than where you would place frets. But going even further, overcompensating like you were saying, would be neat to try too!
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
  6. crackout

    crackout SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    262
    Likes Received:
    294
    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2015
    Location:
    Augsburg
    Sorry, but I still don't see why this should be the case. The imaginary fret only gives you the place where to create a fixed node to achieve a higher pitch to certain degree.
    It does not provide you a line where all strings form an even tone set.
     
  7. Winspear

    Winspear Tom Winspear Vendor

    Messages:
    10,905
    Likes Received:
    1,492
    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2009
    Location:
    Southend-on-Sea, Essex, U.K
    "Even tone set" - I guess it depends what you mean by that. Placing the pickup an equal % of the distance along each string allows us to sample the vibration in a fair comparable way, as the behavior of the oscillations and the balance of harmonics are uniform across the strings at these given points (provided you are playing all open strings or a barre across the strings of course). You could think of it like comparing different guitar cab/speakers (strings) through a microphone without moving the position of the microphone.

    Taking it literally, it does of course not provide an 'even tone set'. Given the difference in tone between a .010 and a .046, let alone extended range strings, I'm sure you would have to angle the pickup something insane like way into the fretboard on the treble side to get any kind of truly even tonal balance in which the treble strings do not sound brighter than the bass strings (and then of course there is the fact they are tuned lower, too..).
     
    A-Branger likes this.
  8. A-Branger

    A-Branger SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    3,538
    Likes Received:
    960
    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2015
    Location:
    QLD, Australia
    in another way, its to match the pickup to its possition on a standard scale guitar. On a "normal" guitar the pickup its paralel to the bridge (and frets/nut), where do you locate the pickup?, thats up to the builder, some people liek it closer to the bridge, some a bit further away on a spot they think its the "sweet spot".


    so, lets say you find your sweet spot for a bridge pickup, cool, now what would happen if you want to convert that guitar to a multiscale one?, where/how would you possition the pickup?, eachs tring is different, so the "Xmm away from teh bridge" rule would only apply to the one string that ha the same scale lenght as before. So you eventually do your math and find the % of where the pickup would need to be placed to match your standard scale design. And behold, such possition ends up being on a angle that happens to follow the bridge/frets/nut fan

    simple ;)

    plus it also looks better. Go and take a peek at the new LTD multiscale with the passive pickups, both pickups use the same angle so the bridge its same as the neck. Now look at an Ormsby hype where the angle of the bridge its more extreme compared to the neck in order to follow the fan. What looks better/right. Plus sound wize blah blah tech talk that Im sure it was designed for, not for "looks" only
     
    Winspear likes this.
  9. crackout

    crackout SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    262
    Likes Received:
    294
    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2015
    Location:
    Augsburg
    This 'even tone' was introduced by you one post higher. I was referring to this.

    The sweet spot lots of people talk about when talking about PU placement can only be assigned to a specific chord, barré (open). Once you fret different notes, this entire idea goes down the drain. The main aspect here when placing PUs is: how close to the bridge (fixed node) do you want your bridge PU to be, i.e. how' raw' and 'hard'you want it to sound. Same goes for the neck pickup in the other direction.

    The angle of the neck pickup should start with the same angle as the bridge and then if needed (e.g. due to the different thickness in strings, EQ, pickups themselves) adjust it if you need more warmth in the highs or lows etc.

    Everything else is mojo crap. :p
     
  10. ixlramp

    ixlramp SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    2,161
    Likes Received:
    836
    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Location:
    UK
    Winspear and A-Branger are correct, equivalent positions on different strings (in terms of harmonic node points and pitch) always lie on a line drawn from the 'convergence point' of the fanning (they don't have to be where an actual fret would be). Absolute distance from the bridge is irrelevant because on a string everything is relative to the scale length, which varies continously.

    We're not talking about points of even tone, just the points on strings that are equivalent to perpendicular points on non fanned frets, ie equivalent to a normal perpendicular pickup on a non fanned guitar. So if a guitar is intended to have the same tonal behaviour as a non-fanned guitar the pickups need to be angled to the convergence point, but that's more expensive to do and limits pickup choice.

    56c039fd32bbf_fannedfrets1.thumb.jpg.d5f13ffa9e32562263e7433f721585ca.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
    Winspear likes this.
  11. ElRay

    ElRay Mostly Harmless

    Messages:
    3,489
    Likes Received:
    674
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Location:
    NoIL
    One Math nitpick: The extended fret lines will only meet at a convergence point if the strings are parallel (nut width = bridge width). This is the same flawed math Novak managed to get a patent for, but never used because it would never work.
     
    EverDream, A-Branger and Winspear like this.
  12. bnzboy

    bnzboy Asian Dying

    Messages:
    703
    Likes Received:
    159
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2014
    Location:
    London, ON
    The 8 string version of the guitar below was the one I was considering. I have emailed Shun, CEO of Strandberg Japan, directly to inquire about the upcoming 8 string model and found out pickups will remain straight. Shun was great communicating with me but at the end it wasn't for me mainly because of the pickup angle. I would have considered getting one if it wasn't for the non slanted pickup.
    [​IMG]
     
  13. Winspear

    Winspear Tom Winspear Vendor

    Messages:
    10,905
    Likes Received:
    1,492
    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2009
    Location:
    Southend-on-Sea, Essex, U.K
    Yep, it's not like you can't get a good tone out of it but it really does make a big difference particularly if you are using the whole range at once. Dial in a tight low end and your trebles are too shrill. And there's certainly a point where dialing in a tight low end with the pickup that far back just becomes hard in general.

    Yeah as ixlramp has just shown, it's not about distance from the bridge - it's about % along the string. The distance from the bridge will only be the same on a single-scale instrument, not a multiscale. Matching the bridge angle on a multiscale will certainly do, but it isn't perfectly balanced. It's biased to slightly brighter bass strings - not a bad thing and something that has been suggested in this thread already. But a 'proper' placement equivalent to that of straight pickups on a single scale guitar, has the bridge pickup slightly less angled than the bridge, and the neck pickup even less so. If you angle pickups on a multiscale the same as the bridge, you essentially get the tonal equivalent of this:
    [​IMG]

    Beat me to it haha. I reckon he did actually use it, though. I did a mockup of this at some point and whilst the single-point is wrong for an instrument with a wider bridge, the frets do come out fairly reasonable. I think they were only a few cents out at various points - it was quite minimal a difference and probably not audibly out.
    But yes, if you extend the fretlines on an instrument with a wider bridge than the nut, they do not meet at a single point - they create a curve - almost like taking an actual fan and cutting the corner fold off it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
    EverDream and ElRay like this.
  14. ElRay

    ElRay Mostly Harmless

    Messages:
    3,489
    Likes Received:
    674
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Location:
    NoIL
    Yup. There's no reason not to do "parallel" scales, but you just have to remember to taper the neck before cutting the slots. Unfortunately (for Novak's Business Manager), you can't patent/trademark the "parallel" scale method, and if folks knew that, he (Novak's Business Manager) would not have been able to extort licensing fees for multi-scaled guitars.
     
    Winspear likes this.
  15. RND

    RND SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    73
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2013
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Definitely. As other people have said, the position of the poles in relation to the distance they are to the bridge have all the more effect on the tone. In the image here, for example, a straight humbucker in the bridge like that with the multiscale as it is in the photo would be receiving similar signal from the strings to that of a stratocaster's bridge pickup. Many people are looking for tighter low end and a rounder high end when they go with a multiscale, and the non-angled pickups at this degree of fanning kind of cancels that effect out. If you want more of a modern metal tone, you really have to go with angled pups along with the multiscale. Though, if the fan isn't very drastic, most people don't notice a difference (like Plini's strandberg).
     
  16. ElRay

    ElRay Mostly Harmless

    Messages:
    3,489
    Likes Received:
    674
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Location:
    NoIL
    A simple way to look at it is: "Do you like the Tele-bridge sound?" Tele's have the bridge-side of the pick-up further from the bridge. If you like that sound, then chances are, you'll have no problems with a straight pick-up on a multi-scale.
     
  17. bnzboy

    bnzboy Asian Dying

    Messages:
    703
    Likes Received:
    159
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2014
    Location:
    London, ON
    I do love tones I get from my Kotzen tele but not sure if I will like it in with the 8 string guitar.
     
  18. Avedas

    Avedas SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    567
    Likes Received:
    406
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2008
    Location:
    Tokyo
    6 string Strandbergs only have a 0.5 inch fan. I doubt anyone would notice the difference outside of an isolated A/B test. The new J model is Leda's signature and I guess he wanted straight pickups for whatever reason, so I really doubt they'd budge on that.
     
  19. bnzboy

    bnzboy Asian Dying

    Messages:
    703
    Likes Received:
    159
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2014
    Location:
    London, ON
    I got a reply from the CEO of Strandberg Japan saying Leda specifically wanted straight pickups and install a custom-made finger ramp later which will also get mailed to all customers who purchased the model by later this year. I was surprised to hear that.
     
  20. Rizer

    Rizer SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2018
    The strings would have a different part of the overtones emphasized. Slanted pickups give overtones at the same ratio across all strings. If you like a rounder sound on the lower strings then it's a good thing.
     

Share This Page