Why won't you vote for Obama?

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by The Reverend, Jul 24, 2012.

  1. flint757

    flint757 SS.org Regular

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    Not voting and complaining still is the equivalent of giving someone you think is a terrible driver the keys to your car willingly. At least put up a fight. :lol:
     
  2. renzoip

    renzoip I Am the Table

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    Well, there are people out there who are very well informed and follow politics that still do not vote. Not because they don't care per se, but what is someone supposed to do if none of the candidates comes even close to his/her views?

    I see people going around repeating tired old phrases like "If you don't vote, don't complain" and "voting 3rd party is a wasted vote". A wasted vote for your party and your interests, perhaps!

    I think voting against one's own conscience is much more of a wasted vote. Specially for the people who have issues not just with particular candidates and policies, but with the system overall and with what electoral politics have turned into.

    IMO it is unfair to assume that everyone who chooses not to participate in an elitist electoral process is apathetic and ignorant; and to patronize them based on these assumptions.
     
  3. flint757

    flint757 SS.org Regular

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    You are drawing far more assumption than I ever was. :lol:

    A 3rd party vote isn't a wasted vote, but not voting is. Yes I'm aware some people have an issue with the system, thinks none of the candidates fit their (clearly very specific) standards, but not voting is literally giving them license to do what ever they want without any say so from you. Will it matter in the end, probably not, but bitching about how it is all so unfair and refusing to do anything at the same time is rather ridiculous as the same result occurs, except instead of a minimal say you have no say at all. Not voting would only have any meaningful effect on a grand scale, not on the individual basis where politicians will assume they don't have to worry about your opinion as they will also assume you just don't vote in general.

    On another note it is highly unlikely that no candidate fits fairly close to someones view point as there are far more than 3 or 4 parties (even if not relevant ones). By not voting you are saying it doesn't make a difference (and maybe it doesn't), but sitting here saying how it isn't perfect for you or how the system is broken and doing nothing, isn't a much better alternative. To each there own though...
     
  4. Thrashmanzac

    Thrashmanzac plays in 69/42

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    for all those saying they wont vote for a third party because it won't make a difference, how do you expect third party candidates to someday lead if no one can even be bothered voting for them? i voted for a minor party last election (in Australia) and don't regret it at all. sure, they didn't win, but thats one less vote that either major party will get, and also speaks to both parties that they have nothing to offer me.
     
  5. MrPepperoniNipples

    MrPepperoniNipples SS.org Regular

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    "Wasting your vote is voting for somebody that you don't believe in."

    Words of wisdom, from Gary Johnson.
     
  6. AxeHappy

    AxeHappy SS.org Regular

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    Exactly, this is a quote of me from the Canadian federal election when somebody said voting for the NDP is a wasted vote:

     
  7. matt397

    matt397 Tr00f

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  8. MrPepperoniNipples

    MrPepperoniNipples SS.org Regular

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    Just got back a few hours ago from early voting!

    2 hour wait in line.
     
  9. renzoip

    renzoip I Am the Table

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    Well, not voting, by definition, could not be a wasted vote, since it's not a vote to begin with :lol:

    Also, just because one decides not to vote does not mean that one will do nothing. There are more ways to participate in politics than to stand in line every 4 years to pick between least worst A or least worst B, while the system remains unchanged. I agree with you that candidates will not likely fit exactly with one's views, specially if they are very specific or narrow. But if parties do not come even close to offering any kind of change one would like to see, then voting for either is giving them permission to act on one's behalf against one's own interests. And if one complain's later, then it would also be ridiculous, when one gave his/her vote to a party knowing that it was only the least worst and did not reflect his/her views.

    I think voting is great, but just because someone decides not to vote, does not mean they cannot participate in any other way or remain silent. People can join protest movements, use media to promote one's beliefs, strike, boycott, do investigative journalism, blog, etc. IMO voting is one thing people can do, but some of the most important changes in society have not come through voting but rather through other means of action.
     
  10. flint757

    flint757 SS.org Regular

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    touche :lol:

    I agree for the most part, but my main point was also that you could vote for something other than the 2 main parties and accomplish more in just that action than doing nothing. And there are elections almost every year for something too. (local, state, federal, police chiefs, city officials, etc.)

    I also agree that there are plenty forms of activism, that being said I honestly doubt too many people are that politically active, voting or not.

    Your post was a bit of a tongue twister, :lol: but you are 'technically' correct. There are a lot of people who run for each office every election and one is bound to be close enough and would suit someone better than not voting at all. If you don't vote at all and the guy who is the absolute worst gets in (IMO that'd be Romney) then I think you would disagree on it making no difference. While the paradigm of 'lesser of 2 evils' is silly and stupid, one candidate is still better than the other in such a circumstance. Why can't an individual cast a vote for someone (lesser of evils, 3rd party, their mom) and then also be politically active to affect the change they really want as well? It is a tad underhanded, but it is the only realistic option to make a difference without things progressing backwards at the same time. I do hate that I lack many options for my local elections though, and I think the first step to fixing the voting system is to eliminate the electoral college as states like Texas, other than for emotional support for a candidate (and sending a message), the majority of states have no real say. Honestly you should want to vote more than anyone being in a swing state.
     
  11. Semichastny

    Semichastny SS.org Regular

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    When you cast your vote you are lending support to a politician, not questioning them. Politics is a big game, the politicians actions aren't solely based on the people. Their are Interest groups, Unions, Corporations, the party line, personal experiences/beliefs, and many other variables that influence or interact with our government and it's elected officials. No matter who I vote for on the state level it's problems will not be addressed, this isn't negativity it's reality. I have lived this and watched neither of the two-party politicians support legitimate and factual change. They just end up screwing up and causing problems, while tossing the blame at the other party. Voting for them is not the solution, it's the problem. The people who are partisans are pretty much the other side of the coin to people voting for the "lesser of two evils". When you vote for them and support their positions you only strengthen what you are fighting against.

    A person can't just meet a politician or crowd and offer an intelligent/well-informed opinion and expect them to instantly become rational, logical, and open-minded patriots who are willing to drop all of their previously held beliefs in the face of facts. Some people will hold their beliefs no matter what, others formed them in the absence of facts, some are in denial, and there simply are people who think they know what they are talking about when they don't. A fact by itself won't change a persons mind there are other variables at play. All we can do is attempt to convince people to accept a different point of view, and hope we get enough supporters to demand change. Not casting a vote does not make someone into mute, they still have a voice... and to be completely honest I think it's the people who support politicians who are acting against their beliefs who are losing their voice.

    Edit: Not voting and complaining is the equivalent of REFUSING to give the car keys to someone who you think is drunk, while voting would be to willingly hand off the keys to who is the "least" drunk because that's better then having your unpopular but sober friend (3rd party) drive.
     
  12. flint757

    flint757 SS.org Regular

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    No, while I agree voting is kind of like that, not voting actually isn't any different; You are just letting others make the decision for you. I'll retract my point about complaining, but not voting doesn't do anything to help a cause either. Besides, the politican's don't know who you voted for unless you willingly gave them that information so it is just a tally to them. That is why most politican's consider it only a 2 sided issue: supposedly do (or say) what the voters wanted and ignore the non-voters or those who voted for the opposition.

    To go with the metaphor not voting is more like getting robbed and voting for anyone you may mostly agree with is the 'least' drunk guy. Neither is favorable, but if you don't vote you are probably going to get the 'most' drunk guy driving your car.

    Even voting for someone doomed to lose is a better alternative, but I suppose 'some' people feel like no one suits their need. That being said if you vote third party and enough people do it typically sends a signal to those already in power that if they don't adopt some of their qualities they may be dethroned at some point. I mean it is all just a game and everyone is playing whether they want to or not, that is reality.
     
  13. Semichastny

    Semichastny SS.org Regular

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    Voting doesn't change what their supporters think. Getting a politician to change their stance requires public outcry and changing peoples minds, voting has little to do with it and comes afterward.

    So I end up dead with my car totaled or dead with a human-sized hole in my windshield? If neither are capable of driving in the first place choosing either one of them is irresponsible. If no one is capable of making a rational decision then I don't see choosing the one who is slightly less fucked up as an intelligent choice, at that point someone needs to take the keys away until they can find someone who can driver properly.


    Public demonstrations also illustrate a problem with government. Seeing a person who had no change of winning getting a few extra votes isn't the only way to make someone fear being dethroned. Voting is not the be all end all of the political system. It's not just finding someone you agree with, it's finding someone who is doing the right thing, supporting someone who is doing wrong makes you wrong as well. That is why we have laws against aiding and abetting fugitives.

    Edit: I think your just reading to much into voting. All voting will determine in this case is who is in office. The opinions and issues they run on will be decided by the public and special interests groups not the votes. You said yourself politicians won't know who a person voted for, which means the person is on equal footing when speaking to the politician regardless of whether they voted for him, against him, or not at all. Convincing those that the politician relies to demand change is what creates it, not making it clear you will vote for him no matter what he does. When you vote for someone not acting in your interest you are inherent working against the change you want.

    Not voting has nothing to with helping or hurting a cause, A person can do more good for a cause by making speeches and getting air-time then they could by casting a vote for someone working against their goals. You are still denying them the vote and sending roughly the same message that you would by voting for a third party. It's not just an issue of finding someone who suits my views, it's about finding someone who will act with morals and do the right thing. Some people just aren't willing to condone the millions of lives that have wrecked by our drug policy and don't find it acceptable to have our constitution shredded for our "safety". People hold themselves to moral standards, they weigh the consequences of our polices, and they don't think the two-parties or their positions are moral.
     
  14. flint757

    flint757 SS.org Regular

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    It isn't like it is either or though. You can vote and be politically/publicly active. I don't find the current main 3rd party candidates to be immoral though so I don't feel like I have zero choices, you may feel differently. A vote being a tally means it ultimately doesn't matter on a personal level beyond showing a higher numerical value in support of a candidate who is closest to what you want, which generally makes all the parties adjust their positions to match the public's voting position.

    I don't think it is the end all to be all, but realistically not much is going to change as it hasn't in quite some time. Clinton balanced the budget because 3rd parties and the public made it a big deal. If Ross Perot hadn't garnered so many votes I doubt any of the parties would have spent the proper amount of effort on resolving the problem at hand.

    It is a game I'd rather not play (and maybe some day I won't), but to assume anything else will have meaningful results is a pipe dream IMO. People CAN do it all (vote, picket, boycott, petition, etc.). We are not forced to choose between the two even though most people do it seems.
     
  15. YngwieJ

    YngwieJ SS.org Regular

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    I agree with you, but doesn't Australia have an instant runoff vote? I think many more people would vote third party in the US if we had a runoff vote system. But since we don't, many people perceive it as a wasted vote.
     
  16. renzoip

    renzoip I Am the Table

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    I just re-read my post, trying to come up with a coherent line of thought while fixing my Halloween costume = Bad idea! :lol:


    At least you got what I was trying to say. :yesway:
     
  17. Waelstrum

    Waelstrum All Fourths Advocate

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    It's a lot easier to vote third party here, because if they are deemed to have too few votes to be significant (as is usually the case) you're vote will go to the next preference you gave. The result is that we actually do have a few somewhat strong third parties, at least in comparison to the USA. Also, the Prime Minister is decided the person in charge of the party that's in charge, rather than the party that's in charge is decided by the president, which means small parties and independents have more influence.

    I think compulsory voting helps as well. If you have to vote, it makes people think about it, so people look into the policies of the lesser parties. It does have draw backs, though. There are some people who are wilfully ignorant, and I don't think they should be deciding my future, so I'm of mixed mind on the whole thing.
     
  18. groph

    groph SS.org Regular

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    The bolded points are what Noam Chomsky would talk about when he speaks of the United States as supporting "state capitalism." You're probably well aware, but Chomsky is a lefty libertarian and I'm probably pretty close to him in my own political views. He's not a fan of anybody in government AFAIK. Same thing goes with somebody like Chris Hedges, he's interesting too.

    Basically all heads of state regardless of their status as Republican or Democrat are corporatists, they're going to invest themselves in making sure the capitalist system survives (hence "state" capitalism) so I really don't anticipate any giant changes in how business will be done unless there are big trade agreements like NAFTA getting signed. We've gone too far to just let a failing business fail. If it's a big enough cash cow the government will do what it can to keep it on life support and I wouldn't be surprised in the least if a Republican did something like that.

    I wouldn't vote for Obama because of his dirty deeds regarding "suspected terrorists" but if Romney is sitting in the White House at the start of the next term I'm not expecting liberty and freedom for all, either. Drone strikes will continue, there will still be terrorist paranoia, etc. I also wouldn't vote for Obama because I'm not a US citizen, but speaking hypothetically...

    Many people also work their ass off and get jack shit, keep that in mind too.
     

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