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Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Drew, Jun 5, 2007.
Vt. secession movement gains traction - Yahoo! News
Good idea, but it will never happen. Even if it does, I see nothing that will prevent the federal government to bring them back, kicking and screaming, at the point of a gun, only to have the ringleaders tried on charges of treason and terrorism.
Pretty much, and support's at an oh-so-robust 13% right now, but you gotta admire the spirit.
Oh, I can admire the spirit, but I also understand that all unarmed prophets have failed.
As bad as it sounds, this may be what the country needs. Like the one guy said on the news, the Empire is collapsing. Maybe this could wake a few sheep up?
I'd probably rally for war against D.C.
50 points to whoever tagged this one "hippies."
Get the fuck out.
Don't come crying to us [the other 49] when you need help.
We don't want them anyway.
I've been thinking that the country is too big for years. The 2000 election was practically a repeat of the 1860 election. Just as Lincoln won the presidency without carrying a single southern state, Bush won the presidency without carrying a northern or west coast state, save New Hampshire. It was another case of regional parties that had nothing in common with a large percentage of the population. In the case of the 2000 election, that was slightly more than half the country. In the 1860 election, this result led to seven states deciding that they would no longer receive just, equal treatment at the hands of a lopsided federal government, causing their exit. If it was not for slavery, Britain and France would never have allowed Lincoln to force them back.
We would do better as several smaller countries. Let the south have their religious theocracy. I really couldn't care less. I care insomuch as it effects my rights, and that would not be possible if they lived in a different country. Historically, as a country, we're just as divided as we were in 1860, but the modern politician is far too timid to take so radical a course.
I find it sickeningly ironic how the tables have turned. Once, the northern states decried the moral reprehensibility southern states, while the southern states simply wished to be left alone to govern themselves as they saw fit. Now, it is the northern states that simply be wished to be left alone, while the southern states try to force their moral values on the entire country. It is a shame that slavery had to exist, because the civil war could have made a great point. Our system was designed with the states as the seat of power. Every state was allowed to govern itself as it saw fit. Sadly, the federal government now imposes it's tyrannical will upon the state governments, which is exactly the situation the founders sought to avoid. When is the last time a bill died in Congress because the majority of representatives felt it was overstepping the bounds of the federal government by abridging the rights of the states? We now live in a world where federal judges--political appointments who are not elected--routinely overturn the laws passed by state legislations and ballot referendums, showing the citizens of this county just who governs them.
Note: In no way am I comparing something as vile as slavery to the "moral" issues of our day (homosexuality, abortion, stem cell research, etc), so please don't turn the discussion in that direction. Let's keep this strictly a Constitutional discussion.
Dave, did you take some kind of speech writing class or do you really pull this stuff out of your ass?
I think Noodles should run for President.
Who's with me?
Oh no. THAT would be a disaster...
Heh. Imagine the platform he'd run on.
It'd be like 4 feet tall.
it never ceases to amaze how articulate some of you guys are
You know, I just did some quick number crunching. It makes economic sense for Vermont to leave the union.
First, just general facts, for those of you who don't trust numbers - according to Wikipedia, Vermont has the lowest median income of all 50 states, yet the 14th highest tax burden, and highest as a percentage of per capita income. That sort of speaks for itself, but...
Vermont's population, according to Wikipedia, was 608,827 as of the last census. It's average per capita gross income is $38,306, which multiplied out gives us a taxable state gross income of $23,321,727,062.00, $23 billion and change.
So, according to the US Census web site, Vermont recieved $4,632,933,000 in federal funds in 2004, the year of the last census. As a percentage of state gross income, divided out that gives us 19.8%.
Or, in plain English, if you did away with the federal income tax (of around what, 32%?) because, well, you were no longer part of the federal union, the economic break-even point comes with a Republic of Vermont federal tax of just shy of 20%. Suceeding from the union would translate into either a real-world tax break of about 12%, or a state budget surplus of (assuming I didn't pull 32% out of my ass) 2.8 billion dollars, or approximately $4,650 per capita per year.
Interesting. Very interesting. Kevan, sure you wouldn't reconsider your stance for a 12% tax cut?
If all that is true that could be used to sway voters. People tend to vote with their wallets
Well, the math is sound. Whether or not I'm remembering the federal tax rate correctly, and whether or not the stats are still accurate is a different story.
Of course, it's not as clearcut as I'm making it out to be, especially since you'd pretty much HAVE to fund an army since the other 49 states would be up in arms, and that $3B surplus would buy like three Tomcats or something, but the basic mathematical figures show that it's more expensive for Vermont to stay in the union than to declare independance.
A peaceful sucession coupled with immediate diplomatic and trade ties to the USA could be a win-win, however, in that the 12% tax reduction would translate to about $5k per capita for each citizen of Vermont to spend on American services and goods, which would provide a potentially valuable trade relationship for the United States - hell, LL Bean stock would like triple overnight.