Why are you mad right now?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Faine, Apr 8, 2012.

  1. Mathemagician

    Mathemagician SS.org Regular

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    Ted, that mentality is fine for someone to have when hiring for a role. But its exactly why when people want to move up they should leave.

    You will get pigeonholed.

    That’s why it’s each individuals responsibility to not rely on your bosses to “reward” your work with a promotion. You have to make the opportunity/leave for the next step up.

    Because once you’re seen as “an engineer” you need to get your current firm to pay for your MBA, and then start looking for managerial opportunities elsewhere.

    If you’re a “lifer” at a firm the. You’re underpaid. There’s your loyalty.
     
  2. Mathemagician

    Mathemagician SS.org Regular

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    weird double post.
     
  3. Demiurge

    Demiurge Intrepid Jackass

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    Businesses are typically run in a cold & logical manner: they are unsentimental and opportunistic.

    Of course, that opportunistic quality often includes taking advantage of their employees' sentimentality. Employees might forego opportunities for the sake of loyalty, overextend themselves to be a "team player", and chase endless carrots-on-sticks as an ersatz version of ambition. The corner offices will gladly accept the extra efforts but will seldom feel obliged to give anything in return.
     
  4. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    Ok, I'll give you that - I'm off as far as, yes, you're right, it does work that way. I don't think it should though. It's completely a context thing- In some fields, being something other than a manager is considered an inferior position - and I don't think it's a good system. The kind of work I do doesn't categorize people in that way, or at least my particular employer doesn't.

    The problem here is that people feel like they have to be "moving up" (to an entirely different role) for their career to be advancing. I don't think that makes much sense. Being an engineer is not a path to becoming a manager, that doesn't make any sense. Advancing as an engineer means becoming a senior engineer- but still an engineer. If you have to change roles to feel important, then that's not a career, it's just another job. A manager is not just a superior engineer, and an engineer is not just an inferior manager. They are distinct roles that have little to no connection to eachother. I don't want to be a manager. If I wanted to "progress" into being a manager, then that's either a problem inherent to the company culture, or I'm on the wrong career path.
     
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  5. PunkBillCarson

    PunkBillCarson SS.org Regular

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    I'm not saying it's a good system, I'm saying that that is the way the system works now and if people want to advance instead of being stuck in their jobs, that opportunity should be there. Also, people should be able to pursue the career they want and it shouldn't be restricted by the title they have now. If someone trains to become something and they have the proper training and can prove they're efficient at the job, there is NO reason why they shouldn't be able to do it.

    Also, a hierarchy exists for a reason. A manager is above entry level because they're supposed to make decisions entry level can't make. If you made them mean the same as in same rank, the entry level person could just say "fuck off" any time they don't feel like doing something and since they're equal, the manager couldn't do the job they were assigned. Now apply that up on the ladder as high as you can go. Is a CEO the same as an entry level person?

    I should also bring up that people don't change roles to feel important. They change roles because of what I mentioned before, more benefits and such.
     
  6. Mathemagician

    Mathemagician SS.org Regular

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    For me, when it comes to my career - I ONLY work to provide for my family. I will absolutely move into a different role for more money. It’s why I’m a workaholic. I went from assistant to portfolio manager in 5 years.

    Fuck anyone that thinks I went to college to bind presentations.

    Like many people my “career” is only an avenue towards more money for my family. I would shovel shit if it paid 3x my current comp.

    I didn’t not go to school to “be an XYZ”. I went to school to make money.

    Excluding certain firms in certain industries/products, a manager of engineers makes more than his highest paid engineer.

    While often an engineer does not necessarily make for a good manager, some do. And if that engineer wishes to move into management it’s his/her right to pursue that. Even if it means leaving.

    Sales has the same issue, sometimes the best sales guy doesn’t make a great manager/coach. But you won’t get a good one unless you hire someone whose sold before.

    You’re expressing idealistic beliefs that a manager isn’t above an engineer. Managers make the calls regarding budgets/project scope/etc. engineers just implement.
     
  7. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    I've worked at places where this was more or less the case. Nobody considered themselves "above" anyone else. Probably the best place I've ever been at in terms of everyone's job satisfaction.

    It's not just an ideal though, some places DO work that way. IMO more places should. Yes, managers make the final call, but IMO the best managers defer to the experience of those being managed to guide those decisions. At the end of the day, the decision is made by the team, not by just handing down the word of superiors.

    I realize not every job can work that way, and in a lot of places there needs to be a clear separation between entry level positions and those with authority. That separation doesn't have to be between roles though, it can just as easily be a junior/intermediate/senior kind of structure where the role itself doesn't play into level of authority.

    Either way, my original point stands that, at least in terms of customer service, promoting people away from entry level positions usually means taking talent away from the front lines, which damages the overall quality of that company's customer service and image.

    Example: I recently upgraded my phone - and it ended up screwing up my account in a bunch of ways, and THEN the phone showed up defective, and the return process was just as painful. In the end I had to speak with 16 different agents (yes, I counted), the majority of which were entry-level, front line workers who were, frankly, bad at their jobs. The only really capable employees I spoke with were those who had been promoted already to retention teams. If those capable people had been my first contact, I'd have needed to speak with maybe 2 or 3 people, not 16.
     
  8. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    The world evolves. Evolution is not about continuous improvement, it's about continual improvements. Sometimes things change for the worse, but we just have to be able to correct it when it happens, and then try other things.

    But it's also about survival of the fittest. In the work world, you get pushback from your employer, not because your employer is evil, or because your employer wants to eat your soul, but because your employer wants to make continual improvements by experimenting with ideas that, frankly, could destroy your lifestyle if you aren't ready with a backup plan at all times. It's just life, really, everyone is pushing the boundaries, and there will be conflict.

    It also means that if companies who shit on their employees, generally, survive, whilst those that treat their employees with respect do not, then shitting on your employees will simply become the de facto policy of employers.

    So, really, if you can make more money somewhere other than your current employer, it's stupid to write it off without a second thought. Your employer will absolutely dump you in a second if someone came in off the street willing and fully capable of doing your job more efficiently for less money than you. That's got to be a two-way street.
     
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  9. Mathemagician

    Mathemagician SS.org Regular

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    Ted, that’s fair from the “big picture for the greater good” point of view.

    But for the individuals working the front line customer service jobs - if they can’t move up where they’re at, then they will move elsewhere. And the company “loses those darn good employees” either way.

    I’m done. Because you’re moving the goal posts by creating fanciful scenarios that do not reflect how the world works, or for the fact that someone good at something WANTS to move up. Ergo they should go wherever allows that to happen. - this is what I’m focusing on.

    If you invest in your people and they leave? That sucks. But if you don’t invest in them they’ll leave anyways.

    So if you’re not willing to leave you’ll never move up.

    To your point specifically “What’s good for the company” is irrelevant FROM THE EMPLOYEES POINT OF VIEW. I don’t work for the company. I work for my family.

    From the managers point of view employees are just chess pieces. And some are less ambitious/driven than others and can be walked all over. - this is what you’re focusing on.
     
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  10. PunkBillCarson

    PunkBillCarson SS.org Regular

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    So because you had a bad experience getting your phone situation fixed, that's why people should never be able to advance? That's why people should never be able to hope to do better for themselves or their families because your phone was more important than how they do for themselves? This might come as a surprise to you, but the people doing the jobs are that: PEOPLE. They're not robots. They have the same struggles as you do when they get home from work. They probably have the same struggles as you AT work. I personally feel that you view the working person as not even a person who has a right to feel the way they do.
     
  11. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    I didn't realize this was an argument. I was just making an observation that a lot of entry level positions are lose-lose situations for everyone. It doesn't have anything to do with the original comment about someone leaving their job.
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    I agree with you, generally speaking. You're right, that if someone feels stuck in their job, the company is likely to lose those people regardless. If anything, the way you've worded it demonstrates the association I'm talking about between career progress, rewards, and promotions- and how the company is losing out as a result.

    Again, some places DO work this way, even if they're less common. My job works this way. I don't want to be a manager or a team lead, I simply want to be better at the things I do, and maybe paid more. Jumping from here to management would make no sense, since it accomplishes neither of those goals. I get that it doesn't reflect the scenario the conversation started with, and a lot of jobs don't work that way- but lots of jobs do.

    In some scenarios maybe, but I disagree with this point as a catch-all or as a general rule. It's my opinion that it's in the best interest of a company to have employees that are satisfied with their jobs, otherwise you get stuck in scenarios like we're talking about - people who want to quit because they aren't advancing, competition over roles, generally low job satisfaction, poor quality of work getting done by people who feel underappreciated, etc. The trick isn't to start with what's good for the company and ignore what's good for the employee - it's to recognize that what's good for the employee is usually of benefit to the company.

    Just my :2c: obviously.

    Wow, that's not even close to what I said. Again, my point was not that people shouldn't be allowed to "move up", my point was that the meaning of "moving up" in the current system in a lot of companies (particularly call centers) inadvertently can cause bad customer service and poor job satisfaction. Like what Mathemagician said, what's good for the employee contradicts what's good for the company in that scenario. It's sh*tty for everyone involved because the company has an incentive NOT to reward their employees. I think it's a large part of why customer service sucks to deal with, and why those places have such high employee turn over. As opposed to having, say, "senior customer service reps" who are paid a much better wages/benefits/hours/etc, but are still on the front lines where they're the most useful.

    Lets not go out of our way to read between the lines and put words in my mouth. I'm in no way suggesting that anyone is not deserving of career advancement or rewards - just that these things don't have to be defined by a complete change of role.
     
  12. steinmetzify

    steinmetzify CHUG & SLUDGE

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    SUPER shitty day. I took a job as a favor for a friend, running a FedEx route. I'm out in the world, in one of the most expensive cities in the US, meeting people, breathing fresh air etc. Most of the time it's a blast.

    Today I got my truck stuck, in the process of throwing on some chains I severely burned my face on the exhaust pipe to the point that I actually had to go to the hospital, I burned the shit out of my back with a cigarette that decided to change direction and come back into the truck unbeknownst to me, and a fucking wheel came off the minivan next to me on the freeway on the way home and almost killed me.

    Holy fuck.......it's almost not worth going outside.

    Today fucking SUCKED.
     
  13. BlackMastodon

    BlackMastodon \m/ (゚Д゚) \m/ Contributor

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    Good lord, glad you made it through the day. Hope you have a speedy recovery, man.
     
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