Which lawsuit Les Paul to buy?

Discussion in 'Beginners/FAQ' started by Mprinsje, Apr 18, 2016.

  1. Mprinsje

    Mprinsje st. anger ain't bad!

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    So as stated in the title, i'm on the lookout for old 70's japanese lawsuit LP's. I'd rather have these than a new epiphone because A: Cheaper, B: gibson style headstock and C: it's old so it's cool. I mainly want to slap some really heavy strings on it, tune it to A and make it my doom machine.

    i've searched around on the largest dutch auction site and came across a few.

    this one looks pretty nice (i like the LP custom look), not too expensive even though i'll have to ride across half the country to get it. Don't know anything about the brand though. the guy's asking €250 but some smartass bid €251 for it.

    ≥ Japanse Les Paul 1971 pre-lawsuit gitaar - Snaarinstrumenten | Gitaren | Elektrisch - Marktplaats.nl
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    this guitar has a sorta unique look to it, with the black/natural wood combo. it has some upgrades in it. I know about Hondo that they were beginners guitars, was this also so in the 70's? Asking price is also €250

    ≥ Hondo 2 les paul maple fretboard - Snaarinstrumenten | Gitaren | Elektrisch - Marktplaats.nl
    [​IMG]


    i also found this, a bit more expensive but i can't really find anything on the brand. Asking price is €350.

    ≥ Vintage Les Paul - Snaarinstrumenten | Gitaren | Elektrisch - Marktplaats.nl
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    And finally this. No brand whatsoever but it's got the white Custom look which i do dig. It's also in a city i'm i've got to be in pretty much every day. it's also a neck through, which isn't something i usually care about but it's usually not found on very cheap guitars. again, this is €250

    ≥ Les Paul Custom white vintage Japan - Snaarinstrumenten | Gitaren | Elektrisch - Marktplaats.nl
    [​IMG]

    I really hope you can point me in the right direction. I'm also on the lookout for an Ibanez Les Paul.
     
  2. pondman

    pondman Build Whore. Contributor

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    Greco Les Paul hands down. You'll thank me later :cool:
    Those links don't work.
     
  3. Mprinsje

    Mprinsje st. anger ain't bad!

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    Most greco's i see are beyond my price limit unfortunately. I will keep a look out for them.

    The links do work when i click on them, i'll see if i can add a pic for every guitar.
     
  4. pondman

    pondman Build Whore. Contributor

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    Be diligent and keep looking, you'll get one at a good price eventually.
     
  5. Randy

    Randy Ooh, Degrasse Tyson-son Super Moderator

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    I haven't played any of those mentioned, but I've played a few Hondos and they were mostly decent (albeit, cheaper) feeling instruments.

    My two suggestions would be an Electra Omega (I have one I paid $400 USD for):

    [​IMG]

    and the Ibanez Les Pauls, which I've played before and I've seen for <$500 USD several times:

    [​IMG]
     
  6. MoonJelly

    MoonJelly brainless and deadly Contributor

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    I recommend the Burny, some of the vintage ones you can find in good shape for about $5-600. Get a vintage one, they are better/nicer than the ones made by Fernandes, although those are also nice and a little less $$

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Haun

    Haun SS.org Regular

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    Japanese Tokais are highly recommendable as well. My own Tokai LS-65 from '92 is by far the best les paul I've tried.
    [​IMG]

    Edit: I think you're pretty safe as long as you go Japanese and set neck (I have bad experiences with bolt ons). Just go for the ones in nice condition.
     
  8. Great Satan

    Great Satan Hell-o

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    Anything MIJ, though make sure it is actual japanese,
    some of those classic Japanese brands have since moved production over to china.
     
  9. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    LOL @ the headstock inlay on that Triumph

    I vote Hondo out of those listed.
     
  10. CaptainD00M

    CaptainD00M Lungsman

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    Fixed.

    Tokai has both Chinese and Japanese made models, the Japanese models get the rep and feel of Gibsons glory days some of the Chinese ones are basswood or other wood. Considering now that your New Japanese made Tokai (anything with a model number starting LS) is roughly on a par with a USA made Gibson standard that may make you think twice.

    New Burny models are produced in China I don't know if they are still producing Japanese models. Old Burny's are Japanese and by all account they are as solid as Greco's.

    Again if you're buying new you need to check where it comes from if that bothers you.
     
  11. Great Satan

    Great Satan Hell-o

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    What's the deal with Edwards these days, are they mostly MIC now too or only some?
    I get mixed reports on what they're up too these days.

    Either way, lovely guitars whether they were made in China or not.

    Edit: also Orville, those for all intents and purposes are MIJ gibsons
     
  12. CaptainD00M

    CaptainD00M Lungsman

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    Pretty sure Edwards are MIJ, I didn't bother putting them on the list as they are a little difficult to come by here in Europe. Not impossible just not as common as they other brands mentioned.

    OP and I live in NL so our options are limited by the almighty 23% import tax.

    Technically you could put some of the MIK LTD 1000 models on there too, but they are generally new and again cost in the same region as a new MIJ Tokai LS model.
     
  13. GuitarBizarre

    GuitarBizarre Listen to physics.

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    The upgraded hardware on that hondo is all GFS stuff - I'd avoid it, it's probably much improved but budget upgrades on a budget guitar does not a good buy make - usually.
     
  14. Mprinsje

    Mprinsje st. anger ain't bad!

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    Yeah, but the main thing is that they're not "real" les paul shaped. i could get an LTD 1000 series without problems but meh.
     
  15. CaptainD00M

    CaptainD00M Lungsman

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    Except for:

    ESP LTD EC-1000 T CTM DMZ SW - Thomann Nederland

    and

    ESP LTD EC-1000 T CTM DMZ BLK - Thomann Nederland

    Full fat Les Paul goodness, built in Korea and built proof. They have shred necks on them i.e. U shape. There is a more or less Full fat EC400 series, but I personally think it looks naff and don't like its 24 frets.

    But yes most of the EC line is meh for me too as if I want a Les Paul/Les Paul Clone Ik willen volle vet neit halfvolle.
     
  16. GuitarBizarre

    GuitarBizarre Listen to physics.

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    The best Eclipse to look for if you want full fat Les Paul is the VFM series - the VFM DMZ if possible. It has a thicker body than the rest of the line with no chambering or contouring, and the DMZ version has 36th Anniversary PAFs in it.

    All the others I know of are thinner than a standard Les Paul.
     
  17. Mprinsje

    Mprinsje st. anger ain't bad!

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    Yeah those are cool, but they're still not les Pauls, with he control layout and overall shape. I've never really dug the Eclipse shape, even though I am a big fan of esp in general.
     
  18. Mangle

    Mangle Breaker

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    Good thread, Definitely want to possess an LP7 over the next couple of years. Although I'm gonna end up with an LTD most likely.... for lefties

    Haun's Tokai looks especially nice. Either of those black one's you originally posted OP, look pretty doable. I'll be interested to hear/see what you end up with. Take your time, get what you really want!
     
  19. CaptainD00M

    CaptainD00M Lungsman

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    Fair enough, you're dropping the cash so you get to be as picky as you want :)

    I personally would recommend scouring ebay UK and De as well as Markplaats to see if you can score one of those aforementioned brands. Or bite the bullet and head up to A'dam and go to Dijkman or Den Haag/Rotterdam (they may have one in A'dam) for Max Guitar and look at their preowned stuff. Mostly they don't put it all on the web, though Max Guitar have started doing it more now.

    The other option is https://www.facebook.com/groups/muzikantenmarktplaats/

    I did see a Tokai through there a few months back. After you get yours let me know if you see any others, I will probably have sold a guitar by then and can justify buying another :lol:
     
  20. MajorTom

    MajorTom Supreme Being

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    There is a person/shop based in France that specializes in selling Japanese copies of Les Paul, I don't recall the name of the place or it's web address, I actually had it in the bookmarks of my Lenovo Laptop that I have just 'repaired' by putting Windows 7 on it, I can get it for you if you want this person's or companies website details.

    As for the whole 'Lawsuit' era guitars, there is actually only one brand and model that is a true lawsuit guitar, only one company was ever taken to court and it was over one design, the Gibson Les Paul, it was Ibanez that was taken to court over their - Ibanez's, copy of the Gibson Les Paul, all of these other brands mentioned, Greco, Tokisa, Edwards, and Burny, are not lawsuits guitars, they are just riding on Ibanez's coat tails and history, a lot of it has to do with how Ibanez as a company was founded.

    Here is more information on what a 'lawsuit' guitar actually is:

    WHAT IS UP WITH THAT LAWSUIT?

    "Lawsuit" guitars: a little info to get you started | Music Production

    As to my own view, I would avoid buying a lawsuit guitar for anything other than collection and display purposes, these guitars are not well made, they where made cheaply by the standards of their day - the 70's, and sold very cheaply by their days standards, they where never built to be as good a quality guitar as a Gibson yet alone better.

    Back in the 70's anything, not just guitars that was made in Japan was considered to be of poor and inferior quality they where in simple terms the Indonesia of the 70's, it's only post 'lawsuit' era and recently that you have started to see companies such as Tokia, Greco, Edwards and Burny start to use some of the manufacturing techniques originally seen on old and higher end Gibson's such and some of the finishing techniques, and it's only on their higher end models, the ones that go for over a thousand plus pounds second hand still that you see and get these features, not the models that sell for a few hundred second hand.

    For the sort of money you are talking about spending, 250 Euro's, you can easily buy a second hand real Gibson Les Paul or even SG, and of far superior quality to anything mentioned in this thread, unless you are willing to buy Tokia's top of the range Love Rock which retails for in the thousands in the second hand market for one that was made in the last year or two. I'm talking specifically about the 2013 Gibson Tribute line of guitars, their 50's, 60's, 70's, and Future Tribute models, if your happy to change the tuners the 2013 Gibson Les Paul or SG Future Tribute, the Future Tribute will set you back least, less than 250 Euro second hand and comes in more modern colours - not many people liked the futuristic tuners or the compound radius neck on them Gibson fanbois have heart attacks if anything so much as a screw is moved from where it was originally placed on a 59 Les Paul, the Gibson Les Paul and SG 50's, 60's and 70's Tributes will set you back a little bit more, and the most expensive of these is the Gibson 50's Tribute Les Paul with a gold top, I saw one sell recently at a local to me guitar shop for £350.00, while next to it they had two of the exact same year make and model of Gibson's, but in different colours, heritage cherry, and ebony listed for £225. Remember when the Tribute series of Gibson's first came out in 2013 they where selling brand new for under £500.00, and the quality control of Gibson's has never been better than it is right now, if you put aside the debate about the features of the 2015 line, you will see that there is almost no complaints about the quality of recent Gibson's.

    Incidentally right now I can find new old stock of the 2013 Gibson 50's Tribute with a gold top selling for £499.00 brand new, or in ebony or heritage cherry for £399.00, and this is from a shop that is known for being expensive, hence why they still have them in stock.

    So do yourself a huge favour and don't think that a cheap copy, which is what a 'lawsuit' Gibson is and was meant to be, is anywhere near as good in terms of quality as even a Norlin era Les Paul, that line is and was constantly touted by people who can't afford to buy a real Gibson to make themselves feel better about their purchase, and in the hopes that somebody, usually somebody who doesn't know how to play a guitar, yet alone the first thing about them, will believe them.

    Put simply and brutally - sorry, you are never going to buy a Rolls-Royce, or an extremely good quality reproduction of a Rolls-Royce from it's hey day, with the budget for a worn out bet up banger of a SKODA, I'm sorry to be brutal your budget won't even stretch to a decent second hand Epiphone made in China, forget about Korea yet alone Japan, that is right out of your budget, unless you are willing to look at something that is in need of serious amounts of repair and has already undergone serious amounts of repair for major issues already, in other words a guitar normal people would steer well clear of, we are talking about not just missing binding here, broken headstocks and guitars in need of refinishing, we're talking guitars that already have all of these issues and more plus things like twisted necks, in need of neck resets, neck angles that need recut, cracked bodies, that sort of territory, where it's going to cost you far more than what you paid for the guitar to repair it to a playable standard, and not a high quality playing standard either..

    Something to keep in mind, proper 'lawsuit' guitars have now become collectors pieces, you are never going to get one in your budget, even one that is not in playable condition, there is no way for me to sugar coat that, I'm sorry.
     

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