What's the longest scale ERG you've played? Anyone play anything over 30"?

Discussion in 'Extended Range Guitars' started by Hollowway, Jul 23, 2017.

  1. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

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    I want to get a longer scale instrument, with guitar string spacing, to allow me to tune lower. But, ideally I'd like to get feedback. Going from 25" to 28.625" in scale, the strings behave the way I'd expect - i.e. they require a thicker gauge to tune lower, irrespective of the scale length. But when I play 30" instruments, the strings need to be SIGNIFICANTLY thicker to tune lower. In other words, the length seems to be such that the string needs a good deal of tension just to be suspected at that length. It sort of explains why basses need so much higher tension than guitar strings.

    Anyway, I was talking with Kurt at Rondo about the possibility of a fanned 10 string with a scale longer than 30", and he said he was definitely interested in it. So if anyone is down, and we can decide on the scales, maybe he will do it.

    Anyway, post up if you've ever messed around with low tuning beyond 30", where you tried to use guitar strings/tensions (as opposed to those of a bass).
     
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  2. steinmetzify

    steinmetzify CHUG & SLUDGE

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    M8M copy I had for a while last year...30.3" scale. Was good and solid for drop E, but I used an .80 for it. Was pretty even for what it was. Think I went 10-52-70-80. Dug it, nice and tight.

    I know you tune way lower than that though...
     
  3. OmegaSlayer

    OmegaSlayer SS.org Regular

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    Is there really a reason to tune lower than standard if you got a 10 string?
    I mean, if you have to do your own music.
    Vektor quite prove that going lower isn't the only way.
    Ideally I'd rather have an high A than going lower than a 9 string.
     
  4. A-Branger

    A-Branger SS.org Regular

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    how do you (would you) play it?, like classical normal playing stuff? or only two hands tapping stuff?, if so, wouldnt be better to build a double neck thinggy like Felix Martin, but one being a bass, other a guitar?
     
  5. GuitarBizarre

    GuitarBizarre Listen to physics.

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    Gonna be honest dude, at what point does tuning lower just become a pointless exercise?
     
  6. OmegaSlayer

    OmegaSlayer SS.org Regular

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    In my wild and crazy luthiery dreams an 8th and a 9th strings with fanned fret would be fretless after 9th fret and they would go through a piezo pickup.
     
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  7. ThePIGI King

    ThePIGI King Death Will Reign

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    The man asked a question, and you come here to simply tell him his idea is pointless? It's an extended range guitar, meaning that guitar has a larger range of notes to be played on a single instrument. The entire purpose is to push boundaries and try new things. As long as the note is audible to humans, why shouldn't it be played? Why waste time switching from one instrument to another when you can have it all on the same instrument, same neck?

    I think it's a great idea. I can't wait to see if you can all make it happen, because I'd love to try 10 strings in the near future.
     
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  8. diagrammatiks

    diagrammatiks SS.org Regular

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    I think a 28.625 to 30+ 8 string would be pretty cool.
     
  9. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

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    Yeah, I don't want to tune lower than what a 10 string would give. What I want is for the 10 string to sound better. So, for instance, I know what strings I can use with a 30" 8 string at F#1. And I'm satisfied with the sound of F#1 at 27" on up through 30".
    But I'm not satisfied with the C#1 or G#0 at 30". So I either abandon playing anything that low, or I see if maybe going to 32" or something would make it sound usable and good. That's why I'm asking. But since there isn't really a way to waltz into GC and try it out, I have to figure it out somehow.
     
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  10. ThePIGI King

    ThePIGI King Death Will Reign

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  11. KnightBrolaire

    KnightBrolaire 8 string hoarder

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    I think at a certain point we've entered bass territory, especially if you're chasing the C#1 or G#0 and trying to get it to sound good. C#1 should work fine at 30-32" but getting the G#0 to work would require massive bass strings (like .244 at 32"). I don't really think the G#0 is feasible unless you actually go into bass territory like a 34" or higher scale. Most guitar pickups suck at reproducing that low of notes (barring the lace stuff) which really doesn't help the situation. I think a split bass/guitar pickup setup might be the way to go (like the novax charlie parker guitars).
     
  12. ixlramp

    ixlramp SS.org Regular

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    No, G#0 is 3 semitones below bass low B, so on a 34" scale only needs around .150 for 30 pounds tension.
    Tuning a little lower than a 10 in standard (G#0) is still not particularly low, there are basses with G#00 and many with C#0.
    But to answer, when the 2nd harmonic falls below 20Hz, so when the fundamental is below 10Hz, so roughly at D#00 4 strings below bass low B.
    Also you should both look at the forum and subforum you are in, extended range scepticism is out of place here, people probably said the same about 7 string guitars that you now consider quite tame.
    2 handed tapping in no way suggests a double neck or split fretboard is needed or preferential, many 2-handed tap on a single region and i consider this a better approach, to avoid an arbitrary splitting of range.
     
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  13. ixlramp

    ixlramp SS.org Regular

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    G#0 is doable on 30", Kalium had an Agile 30" 10 string at NAMM with a G#0 (.150 i think) and the tone was pretty good, there's a video of it on youtube somewhere.
     
  14. ixlramp

    ixlramp SS.org Regular

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    Hollowway, i prefer the dimensions of basses but am more of a guitarist, so i restring 6 string basses with thinner strings at low as possible tensions, so i consider my 35" Ibanez BTB an ERG.
     
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  15. ixlramp

    ixlramp SS.org Regular

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    I was very interested to discover recently someone who has made a 45" scale 7 string guitar with guitar string spacing and a lowest string of .073 tuned to C#1 (7 lowest strings of standard 9 string tuning), imagine the tone and clarity! And yes he's a big guy.

    A longer scale causes a lower perceived tension, as the string anchor points are further apart making sideways displacement easier for an unchanged tension. It makes a string more floppy and easier to bend.
     
  16. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

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    Yeah, that perceived lower tension thing was a bit of a surprise the first time I encountered it. That's why I'm trying to reconcile the tensions for long scales.

    Where did you see that 45" scale? I want to check that out. I think I remember Holdsworth having a 40" scale guitar, too, but I can't find that online.

    On my 10 string I think I'm going to go thicker again with the gauges to see what it sounds like. I think I'm running a .116 and .145, or something like that, for the C#1 and G#0.
     
  17. trem licking

    trem licking SS.org Regular

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    might want to consider what kind of fan is comfortable to you, what different fan spans have you tried? i would definitely go as long as possible, so if you're comfortable with a 3 or 4 inch fan i would start the treble end at 30" (being that that is the longest you can really go before the treble strings start becoming unreliable? perhaps 31"... anyone chime in if I'm wrong here) and fan up to 33 or 34". This of course would be a hell of an instrument to wrestle but if you play standard scale 6 string bass ok i would think it would be tolerable. some very cool stuff could be played on something like this.
     
  18. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

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    Yeah, my 9 and 10 strings are 3", and I have a couple of basses and 8s at that fan, and they're all totally fine. My original thinking was 28-33" or so, if I were to get a custom. But, I don't want to experiment any more than I have to, which is the reason for the thread.

    Prometeus recently did a 13 string bass with a 26"-36" scale. I talked with him about what it would cost to build a guitar version of it (not as expensive as I figured), but he didn't seem to into the guitar aspect, because he mostly builds basses.

    But I mean, I don't get bass players that add lots of lower strings. I mean, if want to play notes that low, just get a bass!!! Er.... wait. :lol:

    Seriously, though, I know a lot of people think this is crazy, but I wonder if there is something really cool just beyond what we are all doing. In other words, guitars at 30" are a dime a dozen now. We know how they sound. We know that F#1 and E1 are very practical at 27", 28", 30.3". But most people aren't thrilled with the sound of C#1 and lower at 30". Now, it could be due to a number of factors, but I don't think we've ruled out 30" as being less than ideal for those notes. In other words, maybe 33" is the sweet spot for guitars tuned to B0 and C#1. I happen to like the sound of low notes, and I find it inspiring to write with new instruments, and new notes/tunings.
     
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  19. PBC

    PBC Composition Ontology

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    @Hollowway

    On rondo's custom order, you can spec out a bass guitar with a 30-35" fan. I feel that depending on the perpendicular that fan would work well as a 10 string guitar. Maybe Kurt would allow that spec to be carried over to guitars. Probably would be pretty neck dive heavy with a pendulum or intrepid body but nevertheless it should be a step in the right direction.
     
  20. A-Branger

    A-Branger SS.org Regular

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    I know, but my reasoning behind this is different as what you are getting out of my post. Since he wants to tune down to the same low note of a 6 string bass (if we adde a lower string to the B instead of a higher one), and since hes strugling to get something decent at guitar scale lenghts. MAybe what he needs is a bass scale lenght. But if he builds this "guitar", then the top 6 strings might be too high in tension due to the extra scale lenght, and might wont be playable enough. Reaosn why the multisclae, but the fan might be far too wide to be practical. So a solution might be to split the neck into two different scales one more guitar oriented and one more bass one. IF he plays it on a more tapping approach. IF he plays in a more traditional way, then this idea wont work as he wont be able to access the lower stuff. Hence my question
     

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