Waves plugins

Discussion in 'Recording Studio' started by schwiz, Mar 9, 2017.

  1. schwiz

    schwiz Lefty

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    6 months later, I still don't own any Waves plugins and I can't even fathom spending $1400 on any of their bundles. Ffffffff that.

    I saw an interview with Steven Slate that really stuck with me. He said that basically, no one gives a shit about the value of software and in general it doesn't hold it's value. Most people aren't willing to pay a huge sticker price for something that you can't put in your hands and touch. This is why he has gone with the subscription model approach. At first I didn't like it, but I will say, its smart. There's a low cost to enter the aftermarket plugin market, and you can cancel any time. No brainer to me... and his plugins are GOOD. I prefer all the Slate stuff to anything I've demo'd from Waves.

    Right now all I'm using is Slate, a few FabFilter plugins, Ozone Imager, and stock Cubase plugins.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2017
  2. fob

    fob SS.org Regular

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    Fabfilter going subscription would be the tits. I’d drop 90% just to sub to those 2 services.
     
  3. billinder33

    billinder33 SS.org Regular

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    I have no interest in paying subscription fees for my software. Seems cheap in the short run, but it's usually more expensive in the long run, because most people won't cancel when they're not using. There's a reason why software companies are in love with this model... it's a gift that keeps on giving.... to the vendor.

    That said, some people who are running a studio business may find a benefit, because they can expense their software expense, rather than capitalize it. The assumption here is that studios are actually doing proper accounting, which is a stretch in most cases.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2017
  4. schwiz

    schwiz Lefty

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    If a business spends hundreds of thousands of dollars developing software that operates and acts like analog gear, shouldn't they be able to distribute and charge for it as they see fit?

    It would take me 8 years with Slate subscription to almost meet the $1400 you spent on Waves. In that 8 years, I'll probably get an additional 10-20 plugins from Slate for no extra cost, because I'm subscribed. Also, when that 8 year mark hits, how outdated will the Waves stuff be? I know I'll get all the latest updates/fixes that are available, when they are available. Also, what happens if you lose interest in recording/mixing in the next year or two? You're still invested $1400 into Waves. If I decide this isn't for me anymore after 2 years, I'm out $336. So if anything this model should be more appealing to the bedroom mixers and people looking to get their feet wet, as opposed to someone who owns a big studio and does this for a living.

    More companies are going towards the subscription model, and if Waves wasn't already the most pirated plugins out there, they probably would as well. I think I heard SoftTube just adopted this model. Adobe has been doing it for a couple years now too. Anyway, you're definitely entitled to not like subscriptions for plugins or other software, but just know its not going to stop with Slate.
     
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  5. fob

    fob SS.org Regular

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    Soft tubes did??!? hell yeah.

    And Slate is MORE than worth the subscription and has amazing stuff. We just got the FG stress and i love it
     
  6. billinder33

    billinder33 SS.org Regular

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    I don't recall making this argument.


    Why are you comparing the price of 2 completely unrelated software bundles? Apples to oranges. But since you brought it up, let's do some financial analysis...

    I've been using Waves for over 7 years now. I have not refreshed my WUP in that time, so I'm already down to $200 per year vs. your $336 in 2 years ($168 per year) for Slate.

    "10-20 Slate plugins." Lets split the difference and say 15 plugins. $11.2 per plugin PER YEAR. vs $1400 for 150 Waves plugins... that's $9 per plugin ONE TIME FEE. Granted, I don't use all 150 waves plugins, but I've definitely used at least ~60 of them at some point (meaning a $23.3 one time fee). Basically I'm break even with the subscription model at 3 years.

    As I mentioned earlier, I've replaced much of my Waves usage with Alloy the last 2 years. Right now, I probably use ~25 of them on a somewhat regular basis... so even if I paid $1400 for just 25 plugins, I'd be at break even with the subscription model in just 5 years.

    I'm about to get on a big ole soapbox now so get ready...

    This is the same basic math as leasing a car vs buying one. Or buying a house vs renting. If you're in it for the long haul (typically 3-5 years with most common commodities), buying usually makes significantly more financial sense than renting. That's why companies would rather you get wrapped around the subscription model. They are making a bet.. a bet that you'll be too lazy to cancel when you stop using, and just like with casinos, in the long run, across the entire population of participants, the house always wins.

    I realize the younger generation has fallen in love with subscription models of all kinds... rent an apartment, lease a car, lease your software, 'cloud' computing services, roll your cell phone purchase into your monthly phone bill (for a fee), etc. but short-term thinking usually turns out to be the most expensive kind of thinking. The people with real wealth in this society (I'm taking general terms now) are the people who own and rent to the masses. The 'poors' are the renter class, and they keep getting poorer because their weekly paychecks all end up back in the hands of the owner class via monthly subscriptions of one kind or another. Most people reading this post can verify this for themselves by simply looking at the inflows and outflows of their bank accounts.

    Unless every possible alternative vendor moves to that model, those companies will not be getting my business. And if every company did go to that model, I'd probably either go back to physical hardware, or get out of the game entirely.


    Correct!!!
     
  7. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    Chalk me up as another guy who isn't really a fan of the subscription model. Personally speaking, as a home recording hobbyist who will work off and on for a while casually, and then every once in a while get going on a project where I'm spending most of my free time recording and mixing, for much of any given year a subscription would be a waste of money and I'd be irritated by having to go through the trouble of subscribing and unsubscribing just to work. I'd also rather just pay up front for the right to use a plugin for as long as I wanted, and not have to keep paying and paying and paying. If companies want to sell plugins by subscription that's fine, but it's something that's less attractive to me.

    I also think that a lot of this is a moot point - I've bought a handful of Waves plugins on sale over the years and grabbed the Gold bundle for free with my Apogee, but I also use a lot of freeware or low-cost plugins I've bought elsewhere, and for the most part I'm happier going that way. Honestly, the single most commonly used EQ effect on any of my mixes is probably the Sonimus Satson channel's high and low pass filter controls, and I think I bought that one (which is technically a channel console saturation emulator) for $29. I'd rather assemble a collection of plugins a la carte like that, rather than subscribing to everything from a certain vendor.
     
  8. billinder33

    billinder33 SS.org Regular

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    Right!!! And think about what happens when you stop paying your subscription for a few of one-off plugins by different vendors, but you get an itch to retrack/remix/remaster a project 3-4 years from now... you have to go back and resubscribe for whatever vendors' plugins you were using on that project. Royal PITA!

    I currently own licenses for Waves, iZotope, Stilwell, Amplitube, Tunetrack, Native, Vonexgo, TCE, Kazrog, DMG Audio.... often I will take several month breaks from writing/recording to work on my guitar playing. Should I log in to 6-7 different vendor sites to subscribe/unsubscribe every time I want to pull up a project for a few minutes? Should I pay monthly subscription fees to UA for the virtual console that comes with my Apollo interfaces? Should I pay monthly subscription fees for my DAW too?

    I understand that the license model may work for certain groups people, where they want a plugin for a bit, use it, move on and never pull up that track again. Or play in a band and do their band's recordings in a fixed calendar window. Or if writing recording is a fad to be partaken in for a few years in high-school/college and then they never mess with it again. So I'm not completely disparaging the value of it. But for myself and many others, it just is a way for corporations to extract maximal recurring revenue dollars out of something that may or may not provide recurring end user value. For people like me, it would be a massive increase in cost without providing any additional value whatsoever.

    I can hope that the major vendors I rely on who decide to adopt a cloud licensing model will at least offer a consumers choice of which software model they prefer... but I'm not holding my breath. Most users though should recognize this subscription licensing model for the scam that it is and run far far away.
     
  9. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    I don't think it's a scam, at all. If you like a vendor and want access to their full fleet of plugins, including the latest new releases, it's not a bad model. And, as others have pointed out, the break-even before a subscription from Slate costs more than a comparable Waves bundle is probably longer than the typical useful life of a plugin.

    It's just not a model that I think really makes sense for me, as a consumer. That's a very different thing than a scam, though.
     
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  10. Nicki

    Nicki SS.org Regular

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    I'll just leave this here...

     
  11. schwiz

    schwiz Lefty

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    Good, you shouldn't, you'll go blue. :)

    30 year old 2nd time home-owner, car-owner, with a full time IT career, and I like the Slate sub model and I do not believe it's a scam.

    At least you own licenses and don't steal them, so in that case do whatever makes you happy and allows you to make good mixes! If you wanna dish out $1400 for plugins, you should damn well be able to! It's just not for me!
     
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  12. steinmetzify

    steinmetzify CHUG & SLUDGE

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    Glen Fricker is an idiot. He’s actually pissed at Waves for going into studios and finding cracked software and threatening legal action? Gimme a fuckin break. If you’re doing something illegal and get caught and told “yeah no, you’re not going to be able to continue this, it’s against the law” then you got caught. It’s stealing, plain and simple. You don’t get to be mad at companies that don’t want you to steal their fucking livelihood. I think it’s ludicrous that he doesn’t want to be associated with a company that does business like that. If you’re not stealing their software, you don’t have anything to worry about. I have ZERO issues with a company trying to protect their licensing.

    Far as paying for the iLok? I’m a Slate subscriber, they sent it to me for free, and the thing works. No complaints.

    And as far as the subscription model goes, I’m glad I can pay $15 a month or whatever for world class mixing tools. I’m a hobbyist, there’s no way I’m paying the $2500 or whatever it is for all their stuff just to own it. This works out much better for me financially and I can stop at any time; I get that companies might sort of/kind of depend on you to just realize it’s a huge hassle to quit, but I’ve never gotten that impression from Slate.

    Dig the stuff, dig the business model, and they’re making it much easier for people like me to use their stuff, which I’m grateful for.

    I’d do it for iZotope if they offered this model too; I love their stuff and own a bunch of it, but if they offered all of it for $15 or $20 a month I’d be down.

    I can see the naysayers’ point, but it works for a lot of people. If you’d rather own your software then right on, but there are times when I’ll go months without recording or mixing. Those times the subscription services just get shut off and deactivated when I’m feeling creative again. No hassle, no worries.

    I will say that for the most part I think the EULA’s need to be reworked. The fact that you spend thousands of dollars on a ‘license’ and can’t resell most of these products is crap. They’re trying to tell us they’re selling us a product but in the end they’re selling us a license to use it which can be revoked at any time on their end, and that’s straight bullshit.

    I refuse to do business with companies that do business that way. If I buy something I should be able to resell it with zero hassle on their end.

    One guy I know gets around this by always using a different email whenever he licenses something, and then sells the email address/license that way. There’s no way they can stop it, and I for one think that part is fair.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2017
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  13. JohnIce

    JohnIce Singlecoils = tr00

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    Not a fan of his channel, but his experiences with iLok resonate with me. Nothing is made more practical by having to use an extra USB peripheral and bring it with you everywhere, but a LOT of things get harder or impossible to do by having to bring an extra USB peripheral with you everywhere. Especially collaboration, the damn cornerstone of music creation. I'm lucky to only have some EWQL sample libraries requiring iLok, cause I can't be arsed to use them because of the damn iLok. If I do use them, I can still bring just my laptop around and work on the projects if the tracks are frozen, or worst case muted. No biggie. But I can't even imagine using iLok products for mixing, what a damn headache if you're mobile. Laptops tend to have limited USB slots, so using an iLok means getting an extra USB hub in my case. Just to use software I paid for. It's shit.

    As another example, my bandmate bought the Slate VMS mic and preamp for our studio. It sounds fantastic, a real gem, what a great guy he is, but between the six of us sharing this studio none of us except him can use it because it needs his iLok. And he can't leave his iLok in the studio, because as a Slate subscriber that would make him unable to open his projects at home :lol: And the best part? He is a guitarist, who uses an Axe-Fx. Some of us are singers, some of us are drummers, he's the one who has the least need for that mic and yet he's unable to share it with his own bandmates, ALL because of iLok.
     
  14. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    Yeah, I'm no Glen Fricker fan - his entire channel is basically clickbait, "let's say something offensive sure to piss 50% of people off, so both they and the other 50% of people will post it on message boards and debate it endlessly, and I'll get lots of revenue sharing!" - but iLok is a pain in the ass, and I avoid it too. I also have no problem with Waves going after people pirating their software. They own the intellectual property, they're absolutely within their rights to protect it.
     
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  15. KingAenarion

    KingAenarion Resident Studio Nerd

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    Fabfilter, Slate, Soundtoys, Plugin Alliance (Brainworx/SPL etc)... I have barely if ever reached for waves plugin in years... and that's just the native stuff I use.
     
  16. buriedoutback

    buriedoutback SS.org Regular

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    after spending about an hour just trying to move 1 license for waves rbass from my imac to my hackintosh, i've decided to stick with the software i can own and doesn't require me to log on, use an ilok, submit dna samples, pledge allegiance to the ceo, etc etc to use the damn thing.
    Great discussion people! many good points raised.
     
  17. Stijnson

    Stijnson SS.org Regular

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    Personally I only recently started purchasing plug-ins, the vast majority I use is still free nonetheless. Not being a professional audio engineer, I considered getting a subscription somewhere, but it's not my thing. I I don't need most of the plugins that come in the Slate bundle, and there are plenty that I simply don't know what to do with. So I just picked up some more specific plugins from Waves, plugins I felt were kind of the standard. (It makes for easier learning from others) In a month I managed to pick up the CLA76, API 2500, L2 and Rbass each for 29$. They massively improved my mixes imo, and will in theory hold me out for quite a while. Of course I could've had about 10 months of subscription time with Slate aswell. But after that? Picking, choosing and waiting for offers sounds better to me.
     

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