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Discussion in 'Dealers & Group Buys' started by leonardo7, Nov 26, 2013.
I do believe you raised some questions in the decibel thread, so you know the feeling don´t you
and with this post you've crossed into psychopath territory, added to the fact that some of your information is just plain wrong.
There is no logic whatsoever in assuming that every single current Vik customer is, by immediate association, a homophobic misogynist douche or a weakling that is somehow failing to defend mankind. This sort of extreme discourse is in itself completely uncalled for and taking a guitar builder's words as if he was leading a far right movement charging against the LGBT community and enslaving women is an exaggeration to say the least.
Is it acceptable to spew homophobic / chauvinistic wank? Not at all, and that is indeed to be brought to people's attention. Do said indiscretions place the universe of buyers in a position in which they are either in agreement or too weak to disagree with that nonsense with no other possibility? Not at all.
I eat at Chick Fil A all the time and support gay marriage
Because that shit is some tasty ass chicken.
I'm glad I really disagree with that assessment, or I might have some dissonance to work through
The real problem here is that you would pay that much for so little food
You vote with your wallet. That's it. I can totally understand that people only want a great playing and looking guitar, and that you might not care for the politics. But with Vik it's kinda hard to ignore his personality and beliefs, he's constantly stirring the fire himself.
At some point you have to ask yourself what the guitar/brand you play/favour stands for - and right know, shady business tactics and third reich beliefs are the first things that come to mind.
You're not buying fast food either, you're spending several thousand dollars on a custom made instrument... to me that's enabling
Yeah, I guess it's up to everyone to make the decision about whether supporting a company like Chick fil A is tantamount to supporting the owner. I personally don't eat there because I actively want to put my dollars somewhere other than into the pocket of someone who holds those beliefs. I also think others should. I'm not sure that makes me a psychopath. Quite the opposite - it shows a lot of empathy, and I am able to empathize with those affected by td homophobic outlook of the owner, and put that above whatever personal desire I have to eat their chicken. I also won't buy Samsung products because of all the IP they ripped off, starting with the stuff from Sharp. And there are other companies I don't support. I'm not sure why that makes me a bad guy. You guys who like Chick fil A and Vik guitars can go there, but it's not fair to tell me that I have to separate my world outlook from my purchasing power. The civil rights heroes of mine advocated voting with your wallet, and that's what I do. Obviously that gives me a LOT of things I won't buy. It helps me save, I guess. It's kind of like my vegetarian friends. They're always telling me all the reasons why I shouldn't be eating meat. They may we'll be right. I still do eat meat, but I don't fault them for getting on my case, because obviously they have a belief that they feel strongly about. The people that don't think you should eat at Chick fil A probably feel way more passionately about not supporting homophobia than you do about trailing loving that chicken. Doesn't mean it's bad. They're just very passionate about it.
At any rate, I think Vik's actions have taken him far beyond a simple misunderstanding, or language issue. That we can all agree on. And before anyone loses their shit again, yes, he builds a nice guitar, too!
If you're going to avoid companies that rip each other off you might as well write them all off.
Oh, I know! I just single out Samsung because their CEO is such a sleaze ball. But you're right - if I actually knew about the guys running most of these companies I'd have to become Amish. Ignorance is bliss!
"I don't play fair often, but when I do, I do it with the lights off"
No one is saying that though - no one is saying "I don't care what your stance is on gay rights is, buy a ViK guitar!", but they are saying, "If you buy a ViK guitar, you are supporting/enabling or hypocritical if his views run counter to your own." So the people who would rather not buy these products, they're not under attack, feel free to vote with your dollar.
To me, it's not a matter of weighing personal desires below some sense of greater good. Boycotting products is simply not a way to produce positive ethical change in the world. If everyone stopped buying Vik guitars there wouldn't be one less homophobe in the world - there'd just be one more angry homophobe with a bit less to live for. I don't think that's very positive.
Similarly, with Chick Fil A, I've never even seen one of their stores in person and I've never eaten there, but I know one thing for sure: I'm not going to judge/influence the company - which consists of tens of thousands of people - based on the beliefs of one person. Who gets hurts when profits go down? The figure heads are already super wealthy and they get to cut up their own salaries whichever way they want? You can't hurt these people. They will never change their moral position because you don't eat their sandwiches. Instead it's all the teenagers working there for minimum wage, all the families whose moms/dads are running these franchises, that will likely have their income reduced / hours cut / benefits reduced.
Now you can vote with your wallet to influence product line...quality control...production method, but I have a lot of skepticism that the same applies to ethical stances. So vote with your wallet if you want - everyone has their own approach of generating change in the world. But it's not that you have more empathy than other guys, you just have a different view regarding the effect of your actions.
This is getting very OT for a guitar building thread, but if you admit you can vote with your wallet to influence the product line, why can't you do so with one's ideals? While it may not change anyone's mind, it sends a message that others don't think that conduct is okay; and that's something in and of itself. It's the parable of the Racist Tree:
The Racist Tree
Now, whether or not you agree with the subtext of that parable, is for you yourself to believe.
^ Because you're not affecting the person you're disagreeing with, just the people that work for them, in his example at least. Vik is a single guy working on all these guitars, to my knowledge at least. Not sure if he has apprentices or people he has help him at all.
You can't say the people who have paid or are already in a few hundred dollars in with these guitars "voted" with their money. They saw Vik was a competent builder with good quality and wanted a custom guitar, not to make a political statement with their money. Now they're either waiting until their guitar is finished, or don't want to speak up in fear of what may happen. You honestly can't blame those guys given past events, and what could or could not happen.
Holds true for future customers, yes you can hurt Vik a bit by getting a large number of people to bail out and continue to not order from him. But the reality of it is that none of that actually happened and he gained more attention from what he did in the past.
I'm so sick of seeing this discussion get rehashed in this thread. Not only has it happened 3-4 times already but I think there is a thread in OT about it that can be resurrected if people want to debate the merits of supporting ViK.
This thread should be getting bumped for NEW information about customers orders, new guitars he's made, etc.
Move this shit to the off-topic, since no one is talking about the guitars anyway, and any attempts to bring the thread back to the topic of instruments are hailed as the coming of the Antichrist.
Threads can go a bit off topic. Reining in discussions is what moderators do. You are not moderators. Thanks.
And where exactly are all these exciting customer orders and new guitars he's made? We keep getting lectured about how OT the discussion here is and how it's derailing more "legitimate" conversation, but this thread was dead for 2 1/2 months. Even the shills couldn't generate new, exciting information about all the progress he's making, because there is none.
Vik doesn't do anything other than churn out easy money fixed specs and make weird creepy public comments. There is nothing else to talk about.
The mods did used to patrol this thread and make sure people kept things about the guitars and ordering, but then Vik started cancelling orders when people badmouthed him, so the thread was opened for all Vik-related discussion. By Technomancer specifically, I believe, but I could be wrong.