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Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Randy, Mar 27, 2012.
Transgender Miss Universe Canada Finalist Jenna Talackova Disqualified From Competition
Read about this earlier. Kind of shitty but the rules have been made.
She sure has nice hair for having been a male before. Not that males can't have nice hair, of course.
I have mixed feelings on this. I think the rules are pretty shitty, but they were there in place and she wasn't completely straight up with them. I completely understand why she did what she did, and I think that this rule should not be in place, but again, they are.
I do appreciate the committee for trying to be respectful overall. I just don't see how her being born with a penis should have ANY bearing whatsoever on how she can be eligible for a beauty contest. Hell, she even went forward and got SRS done so it's not like there's gonna be a ridiculous bulge the whole time. As far as I'm concerned she is 100% woman. Truthfully, I believe she was 100% woman mentally and internally since her birth, and just had the shitty deal of being born in a dude's body. (not unlike myself tbvh)
I think instead of her lying on the application (although I think lying is a bit strong in this situation), she should have made an effort to get the rule repealed first. But outside of that, I support her completely in having a right to compete.
I don't know how I feel about this. As a male, I kinda feel uncomfortable that the lines between male and female are kinda being blurred, but on the other hand I think it's unfair she can't be a part of something because society doesn't agree with her own personal choices, despite the fact they don't harm anyone else.
I think I might need new glasses. I clicked on the thread expecting to see info about a winner disqualified in a TG pageant because she was a genetic female.
The rules don't sound that clear to me. What does it mean to be a "naturally born female"? Does being born by C-section disqualify an entrant? What if one's parents are on some kind of fertility drugs or use something like IVF? What about babies born with male and female organs whose doctors/parents decide to have them go female? It's not quite a black and white statement.
You could test them genetically, which would solve a lot of the cases: XX or XY, which would give their "biological gender". You'd get problems if you had XXY, as I'm not quite sure if you form male or female sex organs. However gentically testing people is definitely not viable economically.
It seems like the Universe competition is about appearances etc., not actually about genetics so it seems a bit weird they've made this distinction. As GoP said, she did lie and there is the rule in place, even if it is questionable, and that's not good.
Ugh oh, not sure if I should be attracted or afraid of myself for wanting to be attracted CURSE YOU SURGEONS, CURSE YOU!
Like I said on HCPP, I'm more concerned with the pro-human bias in a supposed universal competition.
Well clearly this means that you're now gay and must march in parades and speak with a lisp for the rest of your life.
Or it could mean that you're a guy that knows beauty when you see it, and doesn't give a fuck about what's under the hood....
I, for one, have very nice hair
OTT, this is a pretty stupid disqualification, she is obviously woman now. However, the rules are the rules, and there is not much to do about it right now.
If they disqualify this, they should disqualify all cosmetic surgery entries.
If that was a man, who knows what the real women looked like before. If anyone can just pay enough to become a beauty queen what's the point?
I wonder what's going on down there. I'm intrigued as to the current state of things.
The rule is there, true, but that doesn't make it right.
I must admit to a similar intrigue.
^I know it crushed mine. So much for my gym membership.....
This sounds pretty reasonable to me, the rules should ideally be appealed. Even if she still doesn't get in, she'd be the one who allowed trans people in the future to get in.
I'd just let go of the discomfort then, based on your second statement. Nothing states you don't have to be with trans people. Although granted, you'll look like a transphobe if you refuse to have sex with one because you want a ciswoman (a woman who is "biologically" female and has the social gender you'd expect) which is something I'd have a problem with as well, because if you don't want to have sex with someone you shouldn't be demonized because of it. If a dude doesn't want to bang a dude that shouldn't make him a homophobe. And I'm not trying to say that you were implying having sex with them, that's just where my mind instantly goes.. As far as "male" and "female" as social gender roles go, yeah, they're being blurred and I personally think that's a good thing. The biological distinctions are also being blurred simply because we're learning more and more through science and our social categories that correspond to scientific classifications of male and female are being revealed to be unstable and not conducive to a happy life for some people (like a trans person feeling forced to live in the wrong body out of fear).
REALLY interesting points, where the fuck do you want to "draw the line" that DOESN'T imply some kind of transphobia or homonegativity or dickheaded intolerance (I prefer unacceptance because "tolerance" is such a low standard of coexistence)?
On the first paragraph, they test athletes genetically and they disqualify people who don't match up like you'd expect. I'm not sure if these tests account for XXX or XXY people, and chromosomal makeup has no bearing on your behaviour anyway.
About the second paragraph, I think you nailed it. On the one hand it's a celebration of traditional heteropatriarchal (feminist speak for "the kind of heterosexuality you're used to that you don't have to question") female beauty standards so no matter who they let in, the contest is in a sense all about objectification and holding women to a specific standard. So what, SHAME ON THE TRANS WOMAN FOR WANTING TO BE PRETTY! GAAARGH I'M A RADICAL FEMINIST ROAAAR!
On the other hand, that's bullshit. Looking traditionally feminine is not a bad fucking thing and that's the whole point. When it comes down to it, yeah it IS a competition based on appearances but the problem is not what the appearance itself is, it's the meaning a particular appearance has to society. What are the ideal measurements, 36-24-36 or something like that? Why? Why is that a standard? Personally I find bigger chicks attractive and I've also found skinnier, "tubular" as in not hour-glass shaped women attractive as well so any kind of natural, evolutionary reaction to a certain shape of a woman's body kind of goes out the window. Standards change with time - there is old art that depicts women with shitloads of cellulite as attractive.
Word. She's fucking gorgeous.
Pretty sure they turn it inside out, stuff it back inside, and then use a small portion of the head as a clitoris. I think your scrote becomes vaginal lips. I can feel safe to assume that one wouldn't be able to self-lubricate like a "natural" female can (for that matter, some "natural" women can't anyway). I guess if one were to get jiggy with a trans person, you'd just have to approach things differently. But for that matter, you approach everybody differently so from that point of view it's not even that big of a deal - what we're all hung up over is that these people are still somehow "male" or "female" and that conflicts with who we're supposed to want to be with.
That's a better face shot of her, and actually yeah I can kind of see the male face underneath. I shouldn't be saying "male" face, I should be saying "androgynous" face. Look up some male-to-female transformation videos on Youtube, you'll be surprised at how a relatively slight-featured male face can transform into a face that passes perfectly for our current female beauty standard. If nobody told you the person was actually a guy or is trans, you wouldn't even know differently. I'd just think that I'd be looking at a woman with a strong-ish chin or sharper cheekbones or a longer nose or sturdier jaw, all are features I've seen ciswomen with so really I'm just applying "masculine" and "feminine" cultural meanings to certain facial features. Go figure.
Is a beauty pageant a place of public accommodation? If not, what is there to appeal?
If this is a private event (not publicly funded), even if it's broadcast, then I don't think a legal challenge can succeed.
I find it humorous that the Gay Games discriminate against straight athletes.
Haven't you heard? You have to be born naturally gay in order to compete in those. If you became gay later in life, they disqualify you.