The Role of Government (Formerly Net Neutrality Thread)

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by KnightBrolaire, Dec 14, 2017.

  1. StevenC

    StevenC SS.org Regular

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    Yeah, I'm just going to discount anyone who discounts Tim Berners-Lee's opinion on the internet.

    And not to be anal, but if you're going to title your article "the problem with experts" and then say "you don't know how an economy works", playing the expert card, I'm also going to discount your opinion.
     
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  2. Unleash The Fury

    Unleash The Fury SS.org Regular

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    Did you read the while thing or just one paragraph?

    The economy doesnt work, thats the thing. I know how the economy SHOULD work. Do you? Most people dont know how the economy currently works (or doesnt) ALSO how it should work

    Btw, yes i am back. My account was throttled for a while
     
  3. StevenC

    StevenC SS.org Regular

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    It took a while but I read the whole thing. Did you read this whole thread? Did you see the list of anti-consumer actions by ISPs? Is that how economies are supposed to work? Because if publicly funding infrastructure, chopping it up into monopolies, and those monopolies abusing their power is how an economy is supposed to work, then screw that.
     
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  4. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    Why don't you get specific about how the economy will work with net neutrality repealed and we can revisit this thread in 2 years to see how it played out?
     
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  5. Unleash The Fury

    Unleash The Fury SS.org Regular

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    No thats not how the economy is supposed to work. There wouldnt be monopolies in a true free market. That is Chronyism and it doesnt work..

    All i know is we dont need big brother to get involved with regulating anything.
     
  6. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    I hate how big brother tells you not to drive 60 mph in a school zone. Or like, doesn't let companies charge disproportionately for water or electricity depending on what it's being used for. It's like 1984 up in here.
     
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  7. StevenC

    StevenC SS.org Regular

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    Well, that's how it currently works, except you have net neutrality to stop that. You see, the ISPs get together and say "I'll stay out of your part of town if you stay out of mine". This is how it works the world over. The reason this is how it works is because there are things that can't be done privately. There are things that are so expensive that companies would go bankrupt trying to do them. For example, fibre optic cabling costs thousands of dollars per mile, and that's before you install it. The economics of it prevent competition and make your vision of a "true free market" impossible.
     
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  8. Unleash The Fury

    Unleash The Fury SS.org Regular

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    The free market wouldnt allow for companies to charge disproportionately for utilities. People would simply find another provider, and if there is a demand for such utilities, someone will surely come along to provide it to get your business. Not sure where you were going with that one
     
  9. StevenC

    StevenC SS.org Regular

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    By all means install your own water pipe infrastructure and compete with your local provider. I understand CT has one of the higher average incomes in the US, but that's a lot more zeros than most people will ever see, even if the government keeps their filthy taxing hands off.
     
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  10. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    The free market? How many ISP options do you have in your area? You get maybe one choice between 2 major landline providers throughout huge swaths of the US. It's hard to think of an industry in the US where consumers have fewer options.

    And just go ahead and check out customer service reviews of major telecoms. That's how you can consistently offer shit poor service -- there's no real alternative in most areas, so there's no way to "vote with your dollar".
     
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  11. Unleash The Fury

    Unleash The Fury SS.org Regular

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    I suppose i would then ask, why does something like that cost so much? Is there any government regulation/intervention involved with that? One plan B pill costs $50, does that mean it should? Of course not. Whenever you have government subsidies/intervention, prices go way up
    The taxes
    So your saying there should be more isp's? I agree with that. Perhaps in a better system there would be
     
  12. synrgy

    synrgy Ya ya ya I am Lorde

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    I'm on the side of preserving neutrality. That said, with apologies for picking nits:

    Pinging a bunch of different sites from one machine/location doesn't provide any indication of 'throttling', or not. There are so many variables necessary to the equation left unaccounted for; the number of others on the network at that moment, the size of packets being delivered, the capabilities of the host server(s), the capabilities of the servers each packet needs to pass through between the host and client -- a path which can be different for each individual packet based on another set of variables..

    I get that programmers and engineers from decades ago were so slick that they made this stuff feel like we have one-to-one connections with any site we want to reach, but that's an illusion. It's not how the 'Net... Works. (I'll show myself out.)

    Anyway, I'm not saying throttling doesn't happen. I'm just saying that there's little one can do to prove it without documenting a lot of confirmation data provided by the administrators at each external server sampled.


    Anyway, per the topic: I sincerely hope this gets killed, but per the present zeitgeist, that's all I've got: Hope. I expect it will fly, because the companies pushing it had/have the bankroll to bribe the necessary individuals the necessary amounts to get this thing done.

    (Skip to 1:32 for the wisdom.)
     
  13. Mathemagician

    Mathemagician SS.org Regular

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    People like unleash the fury have a general understanding of how capitalist competition should work.

    However the end state of capitalism is often oligopolies/monopolies over a long enough time frame. After Bell was split into competing firms, what has happened? They all consolidated AGAIN into just a few big players.

    Oligopoly example in healthcare: My firm has 3 “different” healthcare providers. So whether you have a high deductible, intermediate, or the “best” insurance you supposedly have options.

    The reality? They all offer the EXACT same coverage/plans/breakpoints. The ONLY difference is that one is like $10 less in a given year than the other.

    There is no way to shop for a better plan. I pay out the ass for shit healthcare because to buy individually would cost me over $1k/mo. I want universal healthcare. Would make me feel better about the annual cost if I knew it was supporting anyone that was ill could then go to a doctor.

    When there are only 1 or 2 players for something like internet that should be REGULATED LIKE A UTILITY, I.e. water/electricity/etc it’s in the ISP’s best interest to not be regulated.

    Meanwhile for consumers they absolutely should be even MORE heavily regulated.

    Just like water and electricity, you cannot be a functioning student/adult in the modern world without internet access. THAT is why the prices are so high, and why they create data caps to artificially create reasons to charge more.

    I’m a capitalist, and I manage money for a living, I LOVE competition. The ISP/telecom industry is not capitalism. It absolutely should be regulated like a utility, because there is generally no real competition.
     
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  14. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    That depends -- do you think there should be more water providers? Just like 10 companies for each city just running pipes everywhere.
     
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  15. StevenC

    StevenC SS.org Regular

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    You're actually so wrong it's funny. Every country in the world with publicly subsidised healthcare pays less per pill because they buy more pills at once than I can on my own, or a bunch of insurers competing. This information is widely reported and available. When I call up Jason's Prosthetics to order replacement hips, it costs per hip if I buy 1000 than if I buy one. You understand economics, right?

    Now, the thing is it costs loads of money to dig up and bury fibre optic cables before we consider the price of the cables. It costs so much per hour to employ people, it costs so much per hour to operate a digger. The reason these are done as public works projects is because if ISPs had to do it, there'd be no more ISPs.

    However, if we remove government intervention we can enslave people to do the work and steal the diggers. Problem solved, I guess.
     
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  16. Unleash The Fury

    Unleash The Fury SS.org Regular

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    Yes i do understand. Of course you get a discount when buying in bulk. But, why does one pill cost $50?
     
  17. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    R&D
     
  18. StevenC

    StevenC SS.org Regular

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    Because pills don't just happen. They need to be manufactured. And when you have the exclusive production rights to something you can gouge the price. When you don't have a centralised buying power you get a worse deal. Costs have to be recouped, and if there's a guarantee that a company will sell X pills, they can charge a lower price and still be profitable.
     
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  19. Unleash The Fury

    Unleash The Fury SS.org Regular

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    Sorry OP to derail the thread.
    What i should have asked was how can hospitals be allowed to charge $50 for an aspirin that would buy you a year supply from buying aspirin at the store? Or upwards of $100 for baby diapers? Its not right. Its a result a government intervention.

    Its also kinda off topic. Sorry OP
     
  20. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    That's based on the interaction between the hospital and the insurance company. In countries where this is regulated, you don't get such a ridiculous hospital inflation. Of course, you wouldn't be paying $50 for aspirin or $100 for diapers if you had insurance, so that becomes an atypical price for such items.
     
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