The Official Decibel Guitars Thread - builds in progress

Discussion in 'Dealers & Group Buys' started by darren, Jan 23, 2010.

  1. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    Thank goodness people will be able to buy guitars from Darren again, since he is the only person building guitars and there aren't any builders who have never scammed anyone. We are saved.
     
  2. feraledge

    feraledge Black Walnut Pounding Bragger Contributor

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    I have been waiting months to like this comment and now the image needs updated!
     
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  3. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    Sort of fixed :) I was hot-linking, so Darren must have destroyed the original ;-)
     
  4. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

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    Well, I'm happy to take thousands of dollars of other people's money, and then return it, with no interest, whenever I feel like it.

    He is still a thief. I doubt that you could take someone's car, and when the police showed up, tell them that at some point in the future you are going to return it.

    The fact that Darren is returning people's money is good, but he caused a lot of people a lot of stress, took away their time, and took away their options to do other things with that money. He is still unethical, and still a thief. Not to the same extent as those who never returned the money (BRJ), of course, but I don't think his transgressions are erased for having returned the money years afterward.
     
  5. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    I get what you're saying - there's a lot of opportunity cost to having your money wrapped up in a failed project and simply getting it back is not full recompense. However, when someone remorsefully gives back everything he's taken, I'm inclined to say, yea, he's not even-stevens but he's not a crook. To me the thief/crook label has some connotation of intention. I'm not suggesting people should give him money, just that things seem to have run their course.

    But then again, who cares - it's Darren. The same guy that blamed it all on mental health issues while taking 5x more vacations than I do.
     
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  6. feraledge

    feraledge Black Walnut Pounding Bragger Contributor

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    I think Hollowway is right here, but you're not necessarily wrong either. I disagree about the intent, he told the people he did refund not to talk about it to anyone, which means he was cognizant of how badly he was handling things even if it ultimately comes down to ineptitude over treachery. In the end, it doesn't really matter, which seems to be your point as well.
    I just wouldn't suggest at all that things have run their course yet. I think not everyone requested the refund and he's left the door open for more builds or sales in the future. So till there's 100% completed orders and/or refunds, this thing will continue to drag on.
    That said, anyone who trusts him enough to place an order, I don't know what to say.
     
  7. axxessdenied

    axxessdenied SS.org Regular

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    Darren is a crook. Plain and simple. He took a bunch of money. Got himself a car, invested in his business, went on vacations (look at his facebook, he was in Florida a year ago. TOUGH LIFE!! LOL). He didn't deliver a product at all.
    What he did is criminal in Canada. We are talking 10+ years in prison kind of serious. Here's the thing. If he was actually charged with fraud and paid back the money, guess what... you still committed FRAUD. It's not worth giving this guy any money.
    I think it's cute that he is trying to play the victim card on facebook when he has no one but himself to blame for what he got himself into.

    He could have easily gotten a sidejob working for cash in Toronto and paid off the sum he owed people. It really wasn't that much money when you are running a business.
     
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  8. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    While it'd be better to dig something out of a legal context, fraud: "wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain." I think Darren's off the hook as far as criminal charges go, unless they add self-deception to the definition.
     
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  9. axxessdenied

    axxessdenied SS.org Regular

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    My friend contacted a lawyer before getting his refund from Darren. What he was doing was fraudulent in Canada. He can say he didn't intend to do it. But, his actions speak more than his words.
     
  10. Cloudy

    Cloudy Dunvegan Guitars Contributor

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    Negligent fraud is still a crime in Canada. He returned the money and no one attempted to band together to press charges so he is not technically a 'criminal' but that does not dismiss what he did and that does not mean what he did wasn't criminal at the time. He willingly deceived people and held thousands of dollars hostage, simple as that. Putting the burden of your personal hardship onto paying customers of a business you operate is not okay.
     
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  11. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    Whether it's criminal hinges on whether there is reasonable evidence to suggest that he could not deliver what he was selling. I would say early on this was not the case. Maybe around that 10th anniversary run, the case could be made... I can't really remember the timing and how deep into shit he was at that time.

    Aaaanyway, I think there was a time when if you asked me, "Why are we discussing this? What do we want Darren to do?", I would have said, "Give back those deposits, dammit!" And my point is, currently, what do we want Darren to do? Probably stop putting "luthier" anywhere in proximity to his own name, but apart from that, I think this is dead. Those people that hang on to their ongoing builds do so at their own risk.
     
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  12. Qweklain

    Qweklain SS.org Regular

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    Just a note in this dragged out debacle that I did receive my refund today.
     

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