The most racist attack I've seen in politics all year (not Presidential campaign)

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Explorer, Oct 28, 2016.

  1. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    Also consider that the Emperor was a political figurehead of an oligarchy which was running Japan. It wouldn't have even been his personal decision to surrender.

    Interesting factoid: The Emperor of Japan speaks a special "royal dialect" of Japanese. When he announced Japan's surrender over the radio, most people who heard it actually had no idea what he said.
     
  2. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    So the allies got to choose Hirohito's words?!

    You post-modern "thinkers" really want me to be wrong. The thing is, in most cases, there is plenty of room for discussion, but in the case of the statement:

    it's simply a matter of historical facts. Yes, it's a cause and effect, which is usually difficult to prove, but if two nations are at war, and one nation drops an a bomb on the the other, then, just a few days later, does it again, and then the leader of the bombed nation says he is surrendering because of the new bomb, then the cause and effect is pretty darn well established. If some part of that story is regarded as a hoax, I'd like to hear some good reasons why.
     
  3. tedtan

    tedtan SS.org Regular

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    I never claimed it was a hoax, I'm merely pointing out that there is a lot of room between saying that the atomic bomb played a significant causal role in Japan's surrender, though perhaps not the only causal role, and saying:

     
  4. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Well, I guess you and I don't really disagree, then. If you believe the bomb had a significant causal role in Japan's surrender, and I'm not claiming anything beyond that it was the most significant cause, it sounds like we are on the same page.

    If another user says that the bomb wasn't important in the end of the war, then my beef is with him, or, more specifically, his point. It doesn't help that said user, in 9/10 discussions here, takes a contrary role to just about everything I say, regardless of the topic.

    You can parse together the fact that Hirohito said, in his surrender address, which ended the last military conflict of the war, that the bomb was the reason why Japan could not continue fighting, and that the bomb was important in the end of the war. The thought that the bombs were insignificant in the end of the war, "just a payback" to exact revenge on an already-surrendering Japan, is just based outside of facts.
     
  5. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    Eh, the problem with the narrative taught in the US is that it lacks subtlety and an appreciation for some of the big-picture aspects of the war.

    Let's say we're walking to a store together, but along the way you see a bike by the side of the road. You hop on and beat me to the store by 5 minutes. Was the bike an important factor for arriving at the store quickly? Yes. But was it an important factor for arriving at the store? No. We all get there anyway.

    Japan's role in this latter part of WWII is like this. The nice thing about having the war so far behind us is that we now have access to all these conversations between high-ranking US officials, and between high-ranking Japanese officials, private interviews, diaries, etc., that can inform of us what people really thought regarding their strategies and outcomes in the war, and this is true of the bomb too. And let's just say that as a guy who used to live in Japan dating a girl from Hiroshima, I've heard a lot of divided opinions on the matter of whether the bombing was necessary, and I've had to do a lot of extra curricular reading about it.

    But in all angles of this debate, I don't think I've ever once heard an opinion that there was any doubt regarding Japan's inevitable surrender. The bomb may have pushed the timetable, but infrastructure on Honshu was already heavily laid waste, Tokyo was fire bombed severely the month before, and the Soviets began advancing into Japan-occupied territory the same day. It was over. It was well-understood in Japan that it was over. The only domestic issue at that point was bringing about an end-of-conflict that gave a favorable outcome to Japan. But the US would have preferred the war end as quickly as possible to avoid further Soviet advancement and a divided German-esque postwar situation, and also used the bomb to basically establish total control over the terms of the surrender.

    So getting back to the main point -- the point I contest is this:

    Well, depends on "bad for us." I took that to mean we would actually suffer losses comparable to other countries that participated heavily in WWII. But the reality is a projected ~500k or so US casualties at the time as part of operation downfall -- the US land invasion of Japan, but probably much less. Projections were based on foreign assessments of Japanese power and probably an over-estimation of civilian involvement.

    So if that's the point -- the Manhattan Project saved us ~500k soldiers in a march to Tokyo, eh, I can't say it's not a possibility. But given the Japanese were already discussing surrendering prior to the bomb drop, I'd say it's unlikely, and anything Japanese military involvement outside of Japan from that point on would be a pipe dream. And to the real, major point -- losing 500k people sucks, but it seems unlikely to make a major economic impact on a country with a then-population of 130M.
     
  6. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Addressing your analogy, in that case, in hindsight, the bike was an important factor in me getting to the store, and it's ridiculous to argue otherwise, since it already happened. We are not talking about how I could get to the store in the future, but, rather, how I got to the store. One is concrete and the other is abstract: what happened/what could have happened.

    In the case of Japan: Japan was not winning the war, but, then again, they had not been in a winning position for a long time. There is no doubt that their surrender was precipitated by the nuclear bomb, not just because of the coincidence of their surrender coming immediately after the bombings, but because they said so. How long they would have kept fighting had it not been for the bomb is an interesting topic, but it does not supplant what actually happened.

    The thought that a ground invasion on the Japanese homeland would have not had any major economic impact on the USA is just another one with which I would have to disagree.

    If you want to explore the what if's, that could be an entire message board.

    The Soviets were already having diplomatic problems with the USA before the Germans surrendered, and the USSR had faced the economic difficulties of bearing the entire brunt of the last push on the Eastern Front at the end of the war, not to mention war with Finland. Between the economic problems and the strained relationship with the USA, there was no guarantee the Soviets would have helped in the Pacific.
     
  7. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    But as soon as you said this:

    We were in what-if land.
     
  8. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    And I'm not opposed to what-if's. I merely said that there are a lot of them.
     
  9. Tortellini

    Tortellini SS.org Regular

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    Jesus Christ it's like a ....ing buzzfeed article in here.

    There is no wage gap. If you think there is, show me the proof. After all the burden of proof lies on those who make the claim. Women make less IN GENERAL because they are more likely to work part time and work in lower paying fields. There is no proof women make less for working the same jobs. If they did, companies would hire more women to save money.

    White privilege is complete garbage. You ever been in a ....ing trailer park? You seen these PRIVELEGED white kids eating ....ing dog food because it's cheaper for their (I hate to call them this) 'parents' to buy than actual food? Ever seen infants left alone outside in the cold because mommy got sick of hearing them cry? I have. Every race of people struggles. Every race of human is equally disgusting and pathetic. None is more privileged than an other.
     
  10. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    If you pop in to bump a thread this old, I'd at least expect to see a less stupid, head-in-the-sand reply.
     
  11. Tortellini

    Tortellini SS.org Regular

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    Tell me exactly what was wrong about what I said.
     
  12. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    The fact that your suggested counterexample would only fit if the working definition of "white privilege" is that of "white people can't fail at life." Of course there are trailer homes filled with white people. You think that proves anything? That white privilege means anyone caucasian child gets a condo with his birth certificate?? That's not what is meant by white privilege, something I won't try to define again as it's been discussed ad nauseam in this thread. It makes me think you either didn't actually read the thread, or weren't capable of processing the information.

    Regarding the gender pay gap, let's focus on one particular field (thus completely sidestepping your argument that women tend to work in less lucrative fields). How then would you explain the findings of this article, which control for a number of other factors you're not even mentioning?

    http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-0323-pay-gap-20160323-story.html

    Like damn dude, tell me something that wasn't wrong about what you said.
     
  13. UnderTheSign

    UnderTheSign SS.org Regular

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    "the burden of proof lies on he who makes the claims"
    *makes a bunch of claims, no proof to be found*

    Uh, yeah, man. It's super edgy to compare opinions that don't suit yours as buzzfeed level sh!t
    Really, if you've read the whole thread and all you could muster was "privilege doesn't exist because there's poor white folks", maybe try reading it again. You might even find proof.
     
  14. Tortellini

    Tortellini SS.org Regular

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    I refuted claims. Saying there is no wage gap is not a claim, it is refuting a claim. I never said there was a wage gap. Someone else did.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sJScg78Rlc


    Look, honestly we should just respectfully agree to disagree because you obviously are set in your beliefs as I am in mine.
     
  15. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    This is some dense @#$%. I say there's a wage gap. You say there isn't. That's 2 claims. There's not a de facto state of the world in which there is equality for everyone, and then someone "makes a claim" by suggesting that there isn't.

    And to refute a study you usually have to provide more than just your opinion.
     
  16. Tortellini

    Tortellini SS.org Regular

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    Like I said, let's agree to disagree. I don't see this going anywhere positive.
     
  17. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    I only agree to disagree with people who do their due diligence in bringing researched, empirically supported perspectives to the table. To you sir, I say goodbye.
     
  18. JSanta

    JSanta SS.org Regular

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    Seems to be a common problem, opinions trumping facts that is.
     
  19. HerbalDude420

    HerbalDude420 SS.org Regular

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    That is exactly what got trump elected.


    Whether or not there was inequality in the work place was not up for debate. Is it as prevalent as it once was no but that does not mean it still doesn't exist. It is scary to think how prevalent in America right now that opinions and religion are trumping facts and common decency to your fellow man.
     
  20. Tortellini

    Tortellini SS.org Regular

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    IMG_3143.JPG

     

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