The debate over legalization of cannabis

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by bostjan, Mar 1, 2017.

  1. n4t

    n4t SS.org Regular

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    I don't, sorry. I recall it from a discussion with my Pastor long ago, and am not currently a supernaturalist. I do have one of those brains, so I'm fairly confident in my recall.

    Besides, it makes sense. Most oracles, soothsayers, witches, etc of the day were the main people known for using drugs.

    It still all comes down to some people trying to tell other people what to do because they are afraid. We really are simple little monkeys for the most part.
     
  2. Randy

    Randy Ooh, Degrasse Tyson-son Super Moderator

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    I used to be involved in a Bible study group (a couple, actually) and one of the topics that came up a couple of times were the references to "wine" in the bible, and how two different words were used in the original language to distinguish between "fermented" and "not fermented" (grape juice?), but the separation is lost in most translations.

    Anyway, contextually, you typically see the "non fermented" wording being used in benign situations and the "fermented" wording being used in more questionable situations. I'd have to brush up but essentially, there's an overall theme that doesn't outrightly condemn consuming alcohol in it's entirety, but the parables usually work out negatively for people who consume "fermented wine" and become intoxicated.

    I always took that to mean that "the bible", as a whole, was advising against any form of intoxication/voluntary impairment. YMMV
     
  3. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    Well, apparently "bong" is just the Thai language word for bong :lol:

    But bhang is still a real thing in India, used in Hindu celebrations since allegedly 2000 B.C.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhang
     
  4. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    People shouldn't feel bound to disagree either though. I kinda do think recreational drugs are "bad" in the same sense that alcohol is "bad" and sugar is "bad" and having affairs is "bad" and cheating on your taxes is "bad", and pulling an all nighter is "bad". You can find ways to spin stuff to make all those things acceptable or not, moral or not, or to be safe or not, or to be responsible or not, but generally speaking, the majority of vices are not healthy for you on some level and I feel like THAT should be the lesson.

    In other words, it's not that "drugs are evil" it's that "drugs are a vice, and vices should be handled with care". I also feel like lots of adults don't handle those vices in a mature way. :2c:
     
  5. Randy

    Randy Ooh, Degrasse Tyson-son Super Moderator

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    I don't know about anyone else, but this thread is seriously harshing my mellow, bruh.
     
  6. wedge_destroyer

    wedge_destroyer SS.org Regular

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    Well first on the biblical front, in the mandate to Adam, we are told to use and exploit, any flora or fauna, save two fruit bearing trees/bushes. We are then told later that our bodies are a temple and we are to keep it holy in substance and form. By that logic as long as we don't pollute with any substance to detrimental levels (as we were told as a race to utilize almost all plants) or unnaturally mark ourselves. Getting buzzed in any from is not really mentioned much other than intoxication to the point where you lose control of cognitive or motor function is bad, in the various parables as previously mentioned. That's what years of Lutheran school and many visits with the pastor gave me regarding intoxicants and christianity.

    My thoughts on the whole deal:
    Does cannabis need a full, intense, and unbiased study, to discern what ALL it does to us most certainly.

    Is that likely to occur soon in this legal and political environment with enough neutrality to where people have no doubts? No, probably not.

    Does the evidence of what has happened in society with people smoking pot mean anything? As the number of smokers or at least number being open about it has risen, and the taboo lessened on dicussion, the amount of anecdotal evidence rose as well, predominately reaching a generally similar consensus as to short term effects. Can that be taken as writ? No it's still hearsay perhaps truthful. But fewer truthful anecdotes have gotten men hung.

    It obviously should no longer be a schedule 1, as multiple locations with due diligence have deemed it to have some medicinal properties.

    Is cannabis safer than straight from the ground natural tobacco, idk. Cigarettes artificially stacked with known carcinogens, yes. Booze does rot your liver and your brain, cannabis may rot your brain and your lungs, but normally doesn't directly kill you.

    Is it currently being used to line prisons and pad the pockets of various ends of the policing/legal systems. Yup, and that's what keeps the federal government from looking at it more seriously. An entire agency has been built up to deal with the threat of drugs, and its that momentum political and monetary that will keep the environment soured for actual research and discourse.
     
  7. mongey

    mongey SS.org Regular

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    agreed , thing is I don't think the majority of pot smokers feel compelled to convince the government of anything . weed is super easy to buy . its not like the government is stopping them from doing anything

    think I said in the original trump thread where this fist came up personally I don't want legalization . I support decriminalization . legalization comes with branding, and big business ,advertising and taxes.

    a packet of 30 cigarettes here in Australia is currently $25 to $30 and its going up again soon . if weed is legalized and marketed and taxed its price will be ridiculous .

    I just think if someone wants to grow a couple plants in their backyard its their business . I don't want or need to convince anyone of anything .

    the reason you can smoke weed in Holland,and I was told this when I was there at the weed museum so guessing they know the deal , apologies if its incorrect , is that it is in their "Constitution" the government is not allowed to makes rules about anything that grows naturally in the ground. its not their business . hydroponic weed is actually illegal there but grown in the dirt its not.if you can grow it naturally then its your right to grow it

    there are still rules around it. you cant smoke weed on the street , you cant even buy or smoke it in the same place the serve alcohol , though hostels overlook this .

    its legal but no large corporations are allowed to package and sell .the cafes that are allowed to sell it have strict rules on how they present it . I support this model.

    its not weed specifically that I support. its the idea that its not the government business to tell me what I can grow in the ground for my own use
     
  8. russmuller

    russmuller Cramblin' Contributor

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    WOW this thread has been busy since last night....

    I guess I'm a little behind, but I wanted to make some points (which others have probably already made :flame:)

    Wow... those sound like pretty scummy people. I've never met anyone who behaved that way, so we've had very different experiences (and I've had many friends who were drug dealers and addicts). However the personal failings of these people (who I would consider to be outliers among the general population of cannabis users) does nothing to justify making it illegal. If someone is an alcoholic and neglects their children, we don't jump to say that alcohol should be illegal. There are other, more reasonable and justifiable responses to the situation.

    I have a friend who died from his cancer a year ago last weekend. His treatments were agonizing. He was constantly tired and sick throughout his 5 year struggle. I don't believe that he had viable relief. Sadly, it wasn't until the last few months of his life that he was willing to let go of the stigma of marijuana to get his medical card and even then he was afraid to try anything but CBD oil. While he might have had the option, the issue was so stigmatized in his conservative mind that he was unwilling to partake even when it was medically desirable to do so.

    I don't need to be a cancer patient to want cancer patients and veterans to have better access to treatments, or to open the path for the research required to develop targeted treatments for specific conditions. I don't want it legalized so that I can smoke. I do that already, as do millions of other cannabis users. Rather I want it legalized so that I don't have to live with the threat of prison for an imaginary crime.

    The view you're posing here is, I believe, equivalent to saying that women want to protect abortion so they can be promiscuous and irresponsible. Sure, there might be a few people who behave in a way that reinforces that idea, but that doesn't detract from the argument that a woman should have the right to choose what happens to her body. I know that's not the best comparison, but I think it's the same sort of shaming we see toward marijuana advocates.

    *note: I want to be clear that I'm not attributing any of this to you, or saying that this is your view, or anything like that. I'm merely trying to talk about the viewpoint you're illustrating, regardless of your actual views. I don't want you to think I'm putting words in your mouth here.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2017
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  9. russmuller

    russmuller Cramblin' Contributor

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    The "authority" of the government comes from the consent of the governed. When the governed are misinformed, they will support legislation that is misinformed. And if the people negatively affected are not vocal enough, the problem persists. And as long as there is stigma around marijuana, the vocal people will be dismissed and shamed, which will deter others from being vocal about it. So what we have in the public space is not an honest conversation about the merits and demerits of marijuana legalization and use.

    That being said, your last sentence in this paragraph is quite true. Espousing a lack of harm from extended personal use does not stand up to the mountain of anecdotal propaganda insisting cannabis is bad. It's unfortunate that people are so irrational and blindly judgemental.

    I honestly believe that there is no possible evidence you could show Jeff Sessions that would convince him to change his mind. In fact, I think that's true of most of the noisy opponents to decriminalization. And THAT is the real problem.
     
  10. russmuller

    russmuller Cramblin' Contributor

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    I don't think the majority of pot smokers feel that it's possible to convince the government in the current state of affairs. Scientists are not able to study it. Those who try to do so have monstrous hurdles to overcome. That's like telling detectives that they can't investigate a crime, but the onus is on them to win a conviction in court.

    Also the government was "convinced" to enact these laws with very bad evidence. When corrupt people use lies to get laws on the books, prevent the people from building a proper case, and shame advocates as lazy degenerates, you've got a stacked deck. Government does not listen to reason, it listens to money (and sometimes votes).
     
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  11. AngstRiddenDreams

    AngstRiddenDreams Filthy Casual

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    For real. I don't care enough to read these ridiculously long posts to argue semantics or hypothetical situations with people who also claim to be pro-legalization. This entire thing is like a game show of, "who has the best hyperbole?!" with an Explorer wannabe and his long-winded posts.

    Prohibition was a political move, never one out of public safety. More dangerous drugs are currently legal. Tax money can go to helpful things while simultaneously police forces spend less. That's the movement.

    Edit:
    Bostjan you should really smoke a pinner man, you seem stressed.
     
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  12. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    I wasn't trying to justify making it illegal. I'm more-or-less for the legalization. But yeah, for every "everyday-functional-smoker" I know just as many of these scummy types of people, just like for every responsible one-beer-on-friday-after-work kind of drinker, I can point out an alcoholic. My point was that, in my experience, the strongest advocates for weed I've encountered are usually the scummy types- seemingly because the scummy types are the ones succumbing to the vice irresponsibly in the first place, and therefor the legality issue hangs over them constantly. This forum has been a great example of level minded people having conversations about responsible use, but outside the forum, maybe 80-90% of people I know who smoke every day are affected in some negative way and flat out deny it. And if you ask them why they want legalization, they can spout all the same info about medical benefits and social benefits, etc.- but realistically that's not what motivates them to want to legalize. Which was my point about:

    There are legit cases, and there as good a reason to legalize as any. But if I ask stoner-buddy-from-down-the-street why HE wants it to be legal, he'll say "cause look at the benefits maaaaan" when realistically he just wants to smoke. The rest is just a talking point and has no bearing on his motivation.




    ....I suppose a lot of my opinions about weed are influenced by how a lot of the heavy smokers I know are scummy people to begin with, I won't deny that. Obviously the drug doesn't *make* people scummy, but lots of scummy people seem drawn to it.

    It just drives me up the wall when people flat out deny when their vices are having negative effects on them, be it weed, or alcohol, or playing too many video games, or whatever else. The examples I know where people buy weed instead of food, they're the ones who will make exactly those terrible choices, while lecturing you about how they're perfectly good examples of how you can smoke and be a fully functional adult at the same time- they're NOT fully functional adults at all. Same as how some people who play games 12hrs a day and never exercise will be the ones arguing that I'm "body shaming" them for not being in good shape and sharing articles about the "12 ways gamers are smarter than everyone else". I know I play too many games, and I fully admit the impact it has on my life. I know lots of alcoholics who admit it and work towards fixing it. I know zero regular weed smokers (in person) who will admit any less-than-favorable effects.
     
  13. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Honestly, the reason I'm trying to play devil's advocate in the debate is because I truly believe that the movement is close to success (in the USA), and, IMO (which no one cares about, anyway) being able to convince a decent portion of the moderate base would make the change happen faster than just waiting around.

    Take that however you will, but I consider myself a moderate, and I consider myself someone who accepted your cause after hearing some good arguments for it many years ago.
     
  14. tedtan

    tedtan SS.org Regular

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    In theory.

    In practice, the government already has the power at this point and only cares about the desires of the masses when those elected to advocate on our behalf feel they're close to losing that cush job to which we elected them. At times other than an election, they have their own agenda that takes precedence over what the masses want.
     
  15. Tortellini

    Tortellini SS.org Regular

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    Where is the victim? Who are the pigs helping by throwing users in jail?
     
  16. flint757

    flint757 SS.org Regular

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    It's definitely an oxymoron. Throwing people in jail for hurting themselves to then only hurt them more by taking away their freedom/rights and making them unhireable for the foreseeable future. Especially considering rich business men get busted all the times for drugs, but can pay their way out of trouble. It's class warfare at this point IMO.
     
  17. Tortellini

    Tortellini SS.org Regular

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    Exactly why I decided against being a State Trooper and went into EMS. I actually feel like I help people while the cops stand around with their thumbs up there asses trying to find someone to bother. Don't even get me started on asset forfeiture. Legal theft by the government because of drugs.
     
  18. AngstRiddenDreams

    AngstRiddenDreams Filthy Casual

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    It's always been class/racial warfare.

    '“You want to know what this was really all about,” Ehrlichman, who died in 1999, said, referring to Nixon’s declaration of war on drugs. “The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I’m saying. We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.”'
    http://www.drugpolicy.org/news/2016...gs-was-policy-tool-go-after-anti-war-proteste
     
  19. flint757

    flint757 SS.org Regular

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    I agree.
     

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