The Catalonia Question

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by r33per, Oct 28, 2017.

  1. r33per

    r33per SS.org Regular

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    It's not in a good place, is it? Democracy is the will of the people being enacted, but only within the rules and framework of that democracy - we had that here in the UK in 2014. Surely the Spanish government must continue to enforce the rule of Spanish law and not surrender to rebellions and insurrection?

    Or should all parties at least speak through their differences?

    It is concerning.
     
  2. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    There really isn't a good answer here - they're both heading towards some sort of showdown.
     
  3. BenjaminW

    BenjaminW SS.org Regular

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    I would not be surprised if some sort of civil war comes out of this.
     
  4. Vostre Roy

    Vostre Roy Disciple of Djod

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    As someone who live in an area where discussion about secession from the country is a regular subject (especially when there's provincial elections ongoing) and who has been a militant for said secession not so long ago, I do follow what is happening over there and have some opinion on the matter:

    - The referendum's results (over or around 90% in favor for secession) is really hard to take as an official result as the way it underwent was heavily unregulated. It is (apparently at least) impossible to verify those results and given the polls usually shows an even for/against in the intentions of vote, it shouldn't had been this such a landslide. I don't think that it makes it official enough for the party in power to go through the process of proclaiming independence. However...

    - The way Spain handled this situation is even more questionable IMO. I think that even though it might not be included in the country's constitution, it should be a given right to any democracy to allow the people to express either or not they want to separate themselves from the country they are in to form their own country. To send police officer and beat the crap out of the people who want to express their right to vote on a matter should be heavily condemned by any country that pretend to be a democracy. I can see how the landslide happened as many people who didn't wanted the secession to happen where scare to go and vote, especially since a majority of the population did wanted this referendum to happen although a majority would had voted against it.

    I believe that its a really unique situation, it can't compare to Quebec's last referendum, the Crimea referendum to join Russia, the Scotland referendum in 2014 or the Brexit, all of them had a different issue and underwent in a different way but overall, the way Spain tried to invalidate the referendum, both legally and by using the force, is a real spit in the face of democracy.

    That's my opinion anyway, I rarely post in P&CE forums but here goes nothing!
     
  5. chopeth

    chopeth SS.org Regular

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    First Spaniard posting and not sure if I should anyway. god, someone mentioned civil war? it's only 40 years after the fascist dictatorship we had to endure after our terrible civil war, no need for another one... or do we?

    The problem in my country is that of two extremely corrupt right-winged parties trying to get political profit from dividing people here. The problem got out of hand. It is true that Catalonia has always wanted to be somewhat free because of historical claims (as other regions here) but former governments have deal with it through dialogue and their "natural egoism" has been soothed.

    The Spanish government (I feel international shame everyday for the last 8 or 9 years) are the heirs of Franco, the golpist leader who ended the democratic republic before starting the war. Have you ever wondered why there's no extreme right party in Spain while there are many in the surrounding contries? Easy, they are in the government, you don't need to go to almost clandestine organizations if you are a old-time yearning fascist, because the government today is built from the grandchildren, sons of the murderers who made a huge bussiness out of the dictatorship in Spain by theft, repression, with the aid of the holy church and the nobility.

    Well, in this context and with this past, the authoritarian central government cannot allow the Catalan megalomaniac leader to question the unity of Spain (huge banner for most right-winged parties all over the world, and especially here for what I mentioned in the above paragraph), which is uprising those fascist which you can see in the tv images with an anticonstitutional eagle flags and their arms high, until now hidden in the gutters (where they should be)... Now we can see them in the streets asking the corrupt central government to crush their fellowmen in Catalonia. Nobody is shocked by that and in any democratic country, the government would put them out, but as said before, they are an important vote base for them.

    All in all in this huge shame. Both corrupt governments are hiding their shames behind these mottos, confronting people and making a real problem out of nothing. Catalonia is NOT an oppresed region on Spain, in fact, it's one of the wealthiest and the best treated historically. The central government (nobody noticed it because the problem is overshadowing everything else) has just been declared corrupt. Not a mayor, a congressman or the like, but the WHOLE political party has been declared as a Criminal Organization, the first time in history a whole party is accused. And they say they won't speak to the catalan leader until he comes back to legality... you know what makes me angrier? that every poll foresight gives them the victory for another legislature... what's fucking wrong with my country folk?

    C'mon, leave us the fuck alone, we are so tired of all this shit.
     
    takotakumi, Edika and BenjaminW like this.
  6. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    Great post, you should post more often!

    Only thing I'll add is that you're absolutely right that the referendum results seem a little out of whack - the reason for this is by and large the "remain" voters stayed home in protest, while the "secede" voters were the ones who went out to the polls. The former thought the very question they were voting on was something not allowed in the Spanish constitution. The underlying public opinion seems to be closer to 50-50, which is part of the reason why I, as an outsider, am having a hard time figuring out what I think on this subject.
     
  7. Vostre Roy

    Vostre Roy Disciple of Djod

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    You actually brought a very nice and respectful input on the subject, I was wondering how the rest of Spain was reacting to the situation as we only get to see either Puigdemont or Rajoy on the news over here.

    I believe that corruption through political parties is an issue everywhere in the world, maybe not at the same level but still. As for the natural "egoism", I cannot speak for the catalonian here but its the kind of speech any quebecer would get from any other canadian if the topic of "separation" or "referendum" is brought up while the issue is a bit deeper than that. Again, my view is a bit biased by my actual location and my past as a militant for separation of Quebec, as the minority here we are not opressed by any mean but we do feel that the reason we are part of Canada, historically at least, isn't really a choice we made in the past but as something that has been forced on us. A good example would be the fact that all province but Quebec have signed the constitution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriation see the part on "The Kitchen Accord") and neither any pro-separation or pro-federation parties in Quebec has wanted to sign it since then. I'm going a bit out of topic but my point being that being tagged as "egoists" or "racist" or "whiners" because we had been betrayed in the past and want to have a country in which we feel we belong is something that I can relate to, not sure at which degree Catalonia share the same feeling though (I need to read a bit more on their history).

    Yeah I can easily see how fascism still has a firm grip through a good portion of the population and that another good part of it (which I believe you are part of) wonders how and when things are going to be moving toward a more modern line of thoughts and "democratic" way of dealing with things within the country. My previous post was not aimed at the population of Spain in general but more toward their leaders, even though they were probably brought to powers by the most democratic way available right now, I have a feeling that in many country, they hide behind a democratic veil while all the voting system is so corrupt that it makes any try to move anything through popular vote useless. Then when the people want to move things and modernize the system, they reply by saying that the majority wanted them in place and that every decisions they make are the will of that majority.

    Thanks man! I usually don't post here as english is not my first language and that it can be hard to get my line of thought worded properly, I got misinterpreted before and some people tend to react more to subjects in the P&CE subforum.

    And yeah I think that both governement are in the wrong right now and that they uses they voting bases to move their ideology forward even thought it might harm the regular people more than the leaders in place. We'll see what happens but hopefully, no war will raise from that situations and everyone will be able to live their life peacefully (yeah I'm an idealist like that lol)
     
  8. chopeth

    chopeth SS.org Regular

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    No, corruption is not the same everywhere or at least so blatantly forgiven. I have read about German politicians resigning after being caught having cheated with their graduation papers and so... that would cause a big laugh among these bunch of thieves in my country. Not the same in my country, I guess the public pressure has something to do, though you never know who is actually to blame. A lot of politicians are into big corruption schemes, plots using the tools of the state to press or get information from rival parties (yes, espionage), using crooked judges and they don't even think about resigning. What I CAN'T believe is that they still get the same amount of votes, except for a few people, nobody cares a shit about politics (it's considered something boring, despised, or someone's else thing).

    Coming back to the egoism label, there is a famous saying calling the Catalans stingy, it's a stereotype, I now, same as with Andalucians, we are considered lazy people, but I'd challenge anyday anyone working against my fellowmates in the fields of my economically oppresed and forgotten region, I bet not so many people would stand a chance. We are enduring a terrible crisis in all Spain for a long time now. We had to rescue the banks for 60.000€ million from their dirty games and have recently been told by the government (the one ruling and which promised the conditions would be profitful for the Spanish) that we aren't going to recover more than 10.000€ million or so... People has been evited, died waiting for their right economic compensation (I'm talking about disabled dependent), fired a lot of people in the health public care, in education... you know what? nor a single banker is in jail, and after the claim that money was lost forever, NOBODY TOOK THE STREETS to ask for the head of anyone...

    But pluck a flag and you'll see thousands of assholes going out of their den of stupidity.

    Same with Catalans, the worst the economic situation gets, the less they want to belong to Spain. It's purely egotistic, as when the things go well they don't feel like leaving. The fascist government of M. Rajoy has helped a lot though, they are a independentist factory, so as Puigdemon is a nationalitictard factory too.

    Edit: Sorry if oversimplified the matter, obviously I can distinguish plenty more shades, but not my first language and in a rush to write a little bit about these issues, obviously leaving out a lot of facets, but don't have the time for a full thought explanation... and I think nobody would care to make the effort worth anyway.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017

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