The attempt to destroy the nation state

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by simonpimonpoo, Nov 20, 2018.

Nationalism, good/bad?

  1. Good

    11 vote(s)
    33.3%
  2. Bad

    22 vote(s)
    66.7%
  1. simonpimonpoo

    simonpimonpoo SS.org Regular

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    Hello! I haven't really been part of any of the discussions in this part of the forum but since it seems like there are different viewpoints here it would be interesting with this type of discussion.

    What is the nation state to you? What do you think of nationalism?

    What do you think of the attempt to destroy the nation state and the type of governance that is in the process of being implemented in its place?

    I realize that the majority of you are probably americans and the political climate over there is probably a bit different.

    In European political circles there is a belief that the nation state must be destroyed and supranational governance in the form of the European Union should take its place to ensure eternal peace. This idea took form after the 2 big wars that completely destroyed the continent.
    At least this is how you would interpret it if you want to give the politicians the benefit of the doubt and don't assume that their actions are malevolent.

    My viewpoint is that the nation state is the form of governance expressed by the people of a nation and to deny them the right of their nation state is like denying them the right to self determination:

    "The right of a people to self-determination is a cardinal principle in modern international law (commonly regarded as a jus cogens rule), binding, as such, on the United Nations as authoritative interpretation of the Charter's norms.[1][2] It states that a people, based on respect for the principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity, have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no interference.[3]"
    - quote from wiki.

    The tactics used by the political elite to destroy the nation state is as I previously expressed supra-national entities such as the EU but also mass-migration in en effort to erase national identities.

    I believe this to be an attack on human sovereignty, basic human freedom and the ability to choose our own destiny.

    What are your thoughts on the matter?
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
  2. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    I don't have any full, coherent opinions, so I will share my half-baked, semi-thought-out opinions:

    1. Being prideful simply for having been born is stupid. You didn't birth yourself, you didn't decide to have parents from X country, you didn't decide to be raised there. Your nationality has nothing to do with your own achievement and for that reason "nationalism" insofar as it takes the form of "national pride" is stupid. It's always been really confusing to me that my Polish friend whom I consider to be an otherwise highly intelligent person can claim that he takes such great pride in having been born Polish. I could maybe understand if you have like a military career or something, but even so the pride is misplaced if you apply it to your nationality rather than your work as a serviceman.

    2. The idea that lines drawn on a map will somehow 'protect your culture' died when we stopped building castle walls and invented the internet. Also, the value placed on 'maintaining culture' is assumed. There's no logical reasoning behind why we ought to do it; it's purely emotional. It's just the opinions of individuals. Historically, the 'culture' of a given region has undoubtedly changed drastically over time. People who want to cling to it are actually only clinging to one particular point in history. This has always happened in all cultures throughout history, yet in the end they do and will always continue change.

    Consider that in 2018, even people born in the land of their forefathers will probably not engage in much cultural tradition.

    3. Those cultural traditions were appropriated from somewhere else anyway. It's short-sighted to think that they're really "yours", especially using as a basis
    what side of an invisible line you were born on.

    4. Despite that I believe migration is a human right and we should let in people escaping Islamist states, I don't feel it's the right choice to accommodate or cater to religions or religious laws, whether it be Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Mormonism, Sikhism, etc. I mean maybe it's not right to full on ban religions or anything, but I think we should continue to fight for humanism as the standard. If a religious practice is mostly incompatible with humanism, as many of them are, then I feel it is not ethically wrong to make those practices illegal or highly controlled.

    5. Americans who are critical of destroying the European nation state and imposing a supranational government should consider that we are in many ways already operating under that system here in the United States of America.

    ooh it's lunch time! Guess I'm all done for now!
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
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  3. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    I'm going to assume you're trolling here - in the US AND in Europe, you see a deep distrust of nationalism dating back to the atrocities of World War II, and about the only places you see nationalism being embraced - sadly, in both countries - are in the white supremacist/extreme right political movements looking for a race-based nationalism.
     
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  4. simonpimonpoo

    simonpimonpoo SS.org Regular

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    I am not trolling.

    Maybe I should have clarified what i meant with nationalism, but I still find your answers interesting in spite of it since I get to understand what you read into the term. I do not place any notion of "pride" in the term nationalism, I simply mean the belief that the nation state should be the form of governance that should guide one people in a world of many peoples. My "utopia" would be a world full of distinct nations of free peoples democratically deciding the fate of their own people without interference from any other entity and in brotherly cooperation with all other free peoples of the world.

    I agree that the distrust towards nationalism and the hate toward nation states stems from the result of the second world war and the shape of how we tell the history of what happened. I do not believe the atrocities that occured during the second world war stems from the nation state since it was nation states that in the end defeated naziism and used nationalism to rally the troops against the nazi ideology.

    Nationalism isn't racism but is the embrace of the nation state and the conviction that the nation state is the best form of governance we can create, at least in this point in time.
     
  5. simonpimonpoo

    simonpimonpoo SS.org Regular

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    Having said that i would like to reply to your well thought out post vilk and thank you for your contribution to the discussion.

    1. I didn't decide where I was going to be born, you are right in that regard, but my parents did decide. They decided that they wanted me born onto them and that was their choice as free people and it was their parents choice before them. I agree that being prideful for being born could be regarded as stupid. But is being proud of your family stupid? Sure you could argue that since you are not your family you are an individual, but still I don't think the majority of people would regard the notion "I am proud of my mother/father/brother" as a stupid position to hold, but simply a position you hold as a testament to your love for your family.

    2. This is maybe where the difference lies since the USA is sort of an artificial construct, but in Europe we have nation states and peoples that have been shaped over thousands of years of history. In that regard the lines on the map are not just random lines but a collection of unique civilizations that all have their purpouse in the world or else they would not exist. This is also true elsewhere in the "old world" aswell of course. And cultures have always changed, you are right about that, but differences between nations have persisted. There is a reason for that i would presume, and I wouldn't go about changing that anytime soon since I see something beautiful about it.

    3. All cultures are shaped by the age they live in and their surroundings but they have still remained distinct from each other. Just because they have co-evolved with other cultures does not mean they lack value. Those invisible lines may well exist over there in the USA but in europe i assure you that you would not feel "home" if you cross one of those "imaginary lines" and all of a sudden people speak a different language.

    4. I do not believe migration to be a human right, I am even unsure if universal human rights as a concept really exists (enforced by whom, god?). A nation state is the only entity that should enforce the rights of its people which in turn its people decides for themselves democratically. Another people cannot claim rights to land that is not theirs, this is how wars start, but they sure can be invited to stay there!

    5. Yes I agree that you are sort of operating under that system already over there and I would not want that type of system in my country. But the difference is America is sort of not a nation state or has ever been? Maybe you have but it's sort of an artifical construct of many different nations trying to coexist. It's an interesting experiment and it has it's place in the world I believe but maybe we should avoid turning the entire world into one giant America, at least in my view.
     
  6. Randy

    Randy ROOMFORYOUROOMFORYOUROOMFORYOU Super Moderator

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  7. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    Um, a racial interpretation of nationalism, and a belief in the Aryan nation-state, was what got us the Nazi party in the first place. I also question how you got the "nation states was what ended Naziism," seeing that two of the three nations that did the majority of the heavy lifting were Russia, a nation defined not by some sort of nation-state belief but by the economic principles underpinning its economy, and the United States of America, a federation of states rather than a tightly-bound nation-state of its own. And it was patriotism, not nationalism, that rallied the country here in the States, at least.

    Also, the bolded bit is really problematic, man.

    This, in a nutshell, is why nationalism is so popular with the white supremacist far right. "It's not racism, it's just that we want to preserve our own unique white culture, bro!"
     
  8. PunkBillCarson

    PunkBillCarson SS.org Regular

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    So let's go ahead and merge this with my Sinead O'Connor/Culture Appropriation thread, I feel like that's possibly where this is headed.
     
  9. StevenC

    StevenC SS.org Regular

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    This would be a really great point if every border in Europe wasn't culturally ambiguous to the point of being unsure which country you're actually in. Or if there were no hard feelings about what should or shouldn't be France or Germany. Or if Catalonia didn't see itself as distinct from Spain. Or if those "unique civilisations" weren't defined by nationalist wars.
     
  10. Demiurge

    Demiurge Intrepid Jackass

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    Oh, I don't see it being the destruction of sovereignty as much as it is the equivalent of that old photo that gets posted a million times on social media of two small kids wearing a single t-shirt that says something like "get-along shirt". Be who you want to be- fine, but let's go a few decades without trying to annihilate one another and perhaps the over-reaching attempts to make countries interdependent on one another will eventually cease.
     
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  11. Ordacleaphobia

    Ordacleaphobia Can only power chord

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    The Americans that are critical of the EU are also likely the same Americans that are critical of the federal government having too much power.

    How exactly are you correlating nationalism with fascism? They describe totally different things.
    I mean, I'll give you that they compliment each other nicely, sure.
     
  12. Randy

    Randy ROOMFORYOUROOMFORYOUROOMFORYOU Super Moderator

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    Well the first part of my post fills in the gap.

    Also, the dictionary:

    Nationalism is essentially the belief, facism is how you put it into practice. If you believe in "nation states" then you believe in defined borders, and those borders designating what's considered 'in' and what's considered 'out'. Back to the dictionary again!

    Okay, so now we've got strictly defined borders and the ones inside said 'nation state' adhering to clear cut definitions of accepted language and accepted cultural practices.

    But hey, how do you know what language that is or what culture that is? Oh that's right, someone needs to decide what they are. And who gets to decide those things? Some form of leadership I'd reckon. And if being a nation state requires adhering to those established "norms", that implies something needs to be done to maintain status quo, right? So that would require letting nobody in and ejecting or punishing anyone within who doesn't adhere to those norms.

    So to put nationalism into practice is to establish a nation state, and to enforce the rules of a nation state you need leadership to decide the rules and to enforce the rules you need law dictating what language you can speak and what God you can worship.

    Ding ding ding, the facism train arrives at the station right on time.

    The only difference between that and what's being floated in this thread (and currently in this country) is nationalists are too limp dicked to admit they're fucking racist and afraid that their cultural is declining while everyone else's is expanding. They just use some folksy 'back in my day'-ism as a sheath for fear of repercussion
     
  13. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    I like that simonpimonpoo seems to be attempting to make the case that Sweden joined the EU in some way which bypassed its democratically-elected government.

    Also, anti-immigrant party the Sweden Democrats, who have neo-Nazi roots, are firmly and fiercely nationalist. They won a bit more than 16% of the vote recently, so they are leveraging their control by playing the right against the left in order to advance their agenda, using language much like the OP.
     
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  14. tedtan

    tedtan SS.org Regular

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    Whoa, hold up!

    No one is discussing the difference between carnitas and pastor yet. :lol:
     
  15. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    Oh! That reminded me... remember the discovery in Sweden of Viking boat funeral garments with "Allah" embroidered on them?

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41567391

    That is amusingly inconvenient for the anti-Muslim element in Sweden who want to make it about the old culture. *laugh*
     
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  16. Randy

    Randy ROOMFORYOUROOMFORYOUROOMFORYOU Super Moderator

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  17. Xaios

    Xaios Foolish Mortal Contributor

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  18. Ordacleaphobia

    Ordacleaphobia Can only power chord

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    Ah, I gotcha. I was fixating on the dictatorial aspect of fascism and got confused because you can easily have a nation state without a dictator.
    ...which is where the lo-T part comes in :lol:
     
  19. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    Anyone want to take a wild stab at simon's political alignment? Three guesses, first two don't count?

    :rofl:
     
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  20. Metropolis

    Metropolis SS.org Regular

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    So... If USA and Mexico were united for same shitty melting pot, and borders were open from second tier countries (or even third world miserable abominations like Haiti) of Caribbean you globalists wouldn't be even mad? Can anyone explain why it shouldn't happen without sounding like a nationalist?
     

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