The 10 String Collaborative Design Thread

Discussion in 'Dealers & Group Buys' started by Tom Drinkwater, Dec 4, 2015.

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  1. Tom Drinkwater

    Tom Drinkwater ERG/ERB Builder

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    Hey Guys! Thanks for checking out this thread. As the title states this is a place to suggest design elements for a 10 string guitar. If we push this far enough and come up with something really special we can make it.

    First off you probably want to know who is involved. We are

    Tom Drinkwater, forum member and owner operator of Oakland Axe Factory

    MFKitten, forum member and owner of Arch Instruments and Fjeld Audio

    Hollowway, forum member and long time ERG enthusiast and owner

    You, forum members that want to take part in this discussion and lend your ideas to a new 10 string guitar design.

    So let's design the ULTIMATE 10 string guitar!!!!
     
  2. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

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    So, my thinking is we do something to really go down low. There's nothing on the market right now that is designed from the ground up for super low tuning. A 5" fan on a 10 string is not huge, and we could then do 29"-34". And I think a fun body style, where it's slightly retro (as opposed to RG shaped) and offset to provide for the fan.
     
  3. Konfyouzd

    Konfyouzd Dread-I Master Contributor

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    Suggested tuning?
     
  4. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

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    Well, for me, I'm wanting to still be able to use the guitar as a regular 6 string, and I find it easiest to adapt to lower strings if they're added in 4ths, so I'd do G#0, C#1, F#, B, EADGBE.
     
  5. Konfyouzd

    Konfyouzd Dread-I Master Contributor

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    Ooooh I see what you're trying to do. That'd be pretty cool.
     
  6. Grindspine

    Grindspine likes pointy things

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    So from that suggested tuning, this would be no resonating strings, just primary strings...

    A 5" fan sounds like quite a bit, UNLESS the perpendicular fret is closer to the nut. I seem to run across several threads with a 9th fret being perpendicular. A friend of mine is having a co-worker build him a fan fret 8 string. They went with 12th fret, which seems a little extreme for me when getting down into first position...

    So, thoughts on the perpendicular fret?

    Will 34" be long enough for G0? That is like 24.5 Hz... We need to get the guy from the inharmicity thread in on this too!

    http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/extended-range-guitars/10064-string-gauges-inharmonicity.html
     
  7. OmegaSlayer

    OmegaSlayer SS.org Regular

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    If you want to go to a 5 inches fan and got that low...wouldn't it be better to make an 8 stringer and remove the high E and B and use a wounded G string?
    Or same concept for a 9 string with a D#0.
    Sure, the instrument would lose a lot of its "guitaricity" but would serve its low end purpose.
    Without the high string you could even resort to a bridge pickup only configuration.

    I suggest a maple fretboard to keep a lot of twang and would remove the frets on the lowest 2 or 3 strings from the 12th to the 24th fret to make the top 2 or 3 strings fretless on the upper octave, as it would have more use as fretless in my opinion.
     
  8. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

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    Yeah, hopefully he'll pop in here.
    Mind you, I have NO experience with G#0 at any scale. I'm just thinking that if we can get C#1 at 30", which people do, then going to 34" will give us better chance of hitting G#0 on a less-than-huge string. And I agree that we don't want the perpendicular fret anywhere hear the 12. Durero told me one time that the best idea is to place the perpendicular fret such that the angle of the last (generally 24th) fret and the first fret are the same. IIRC that comes out around 7th or 8th.
    Another thing I'm thinking is that with a wide fan and a large number of strings, it's going to be easy to get lost on the FB. Side markers are almost worthless on big fans and wide boards. I find that to be the case on 9 and 10 strings with even 3" fans. So we should consider some block inlays or something like that, just to make it doable.
    And I have a helluva time playing 9s and 10s sitting down because of the length of the scale, so we need to come up with a body style that not only has the bridge near the butt of the guitar, but that allows you to rest it on your right leg without having to bend your right arm super far before you, and also gives you the option to play in classical position.

    And this is going to sound ridiculous, but it would also be neat to look into doing a reverse inline HS, and continuing the frets for the low strings beyond the frets if the high strings. So you'd have essentially a -2 fret on the 10th string, a -1 fret on the 9th string, and then zero fret for the 8th thru 1st strings. It won't affect anything else, other than the ability to play open strings would be substantially changed on the lowest two strings. But it would make the HS serve some use, other than being huge. But I'm aware that I might just be talking crazy now. :lol:
     
  9. Nour Ayasso

    Nour Ayasso SS.org Regular

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    Well replacing a high string with a wound string is like forcing it to sound more bass-like. I think the goal is to design a guitar that can tune to bass tunings but resemble a guitar timbre or "guitaricity" substantially differentiating it from a bass (or at least try)
    I'm verryyy interested in this!

    Also want to add, would a upper horn be something beneficial? Or would that further make it sound more bass-like?
     
  10. 8StringX

    8StringX SS.org Regular

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    This thread is going to be AWESOME. I've wanting a long scale 9 or 10 string for a long time. One of my main concerns would be neck dive. I'd prefer that the bridge, or bridges, be pushed to the bottom of the body, and possibly having a relatively long upperhorn or long singlecut body. I love the idea of a big fan, it makes sense when you consider the range of a fourths tuned 10 string. A 34" or 35" scale on the bottom would be great too (I've actually been planning on converting a full scale bass to baritone for these types of low tunings). Or, if you were to use a 5" fan, going with a 32" to 27" scale for a little better tonality on the high strings, though I don't know how well G#0 would work at that scale. As much as I'd prefer to use as long a scale as possible for the lowest strings, I'd like to be considerate of it being a 10 string 'guitar.'
     
  11. Winspear

    Winspear Tom Winspear Vendor

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    You know I'm not averse to big fans but I still think 5" is pretty big on a 10. Not too big for me, but it might put some off. I think 33" would not make a huge difference :) Should hit G# fine with a 120-130 depending on preference.
    29 high E would be good with an 8,8.5, or 9
     
  12. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

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    Yeah, I want to keep this as a guitar with the high strings so I can play regular guitar stuff. It would make total sense to just go super long scale and use it only for low tuning, eliminating the high B and E, but I'm just not super interested in that sort of instrument. And if it was made, I'd want something like 37" or 40" for it, and I'd probably add that D#0. Next build! :lol:

    Ethereal, what is your Vik? That's 5" right? If we did a 5" fan on this it may well put off some people, but there are other guitars available with shorter scale. Like the new Halo goes to 32". But I reaaaalllly want this one to be super long. I'd go to 35" and 6" fan if I thought people would buy that!
     
  13. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

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    Oh, and we could definitely do a long upper horn or a high upper bout (if it's a single cut) to prevent neck dive. And what would be uber cool is it the bridge stuck out the back a little bit like on those basses where the bridge sits just beyond the curve of the regular body. I'm drawing a blank on what that is called now...
     
  14. Grindspine

    Grindspine likes pointy things

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    32"-27" sounds like fun for any ERG!

    I do wonder what rig is going to be able to handle a G0 though... When this instrument is built, is it going to be an AxeFX only instrument? I can think of few speakers that could handle the low string!
     
  15. coffeeflush

    coffeeflush SS.org Regular

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    What about 35 - 29.9 ?
    That low a note will need something more then 34 for sure. And 29.9 is doable for regular guitar strings too.
    Another option could be 2 fretboards with one 36 and other 27 but both joined. Something like this ?
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2015
  16. coffeeflush

    coffeeflush SS.org Regular

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    ^^ This seems weird but it doesn't make lot of compromises. With headless hardware its quiet doable too.
    How frets line up will have to be seen and the scale length edited accordingly
     
  17. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

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    Yeah, the dual FB would only work as "one instrument" if the longer scale was essentially just the shorter scaled neck with additional frets added beyond the nut. It would effectively be the same as the short scale if tuned in 4ths. i.e. the additional length would only count for open strings.

    And the idea of a guitar doing G#0 is that we are not hoping to get the fundamental - just the harmonic series on top of that. It's what will make this sound like a guitar, rather than a bass. So really, any regular guitar speaker will work. (At least, for my purposes). We could try to design something to get the fundamental tones out, but yeah, that's going to be a substantially different build, and much more like a bass than guitar.

    I don't mind doing 30-35", but at the same time I've never heard E4 at 30". Anyone want to weigh in on that? Does it sound horribly ice-picky? Maybe we could temper that with a pickup angled an something beyond the fan, so the treble end winds up more in the middle pickup position, while the bass side is more in the bridge pickup position. That would warm up the treble side some. But there is no getting away from needing a thinner string at 30". For me, personally, I'd probably do a 6" fan and go 29-35 before I'd do 30-35. But I'm curious to see how others fee about it.
     
  18. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

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    So, actually it's not true what I said - I do have a 10 string I just got with 30" G#0. The string on there is .120", and is too floppy to be particularly useful for me, so MFkitten suggested a .142, which I'm ordering. I'll report back once I get that on there, but nevertheless, I think it's clear that longer is better with notes that low. Plus, we HAVE to do this 10 string now, otherwise it will seem weird when I try to talk Tom into an 11 string run next year. :lol:
     
  19. Jay Jillard

    Jay Jillard I make things.

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    this is how i'd do it.. granted, I may not be as adventurous in how long to make it, but you could easily add 1/4" or 1/2" to these scales. or even just lengthen out the bottom 7 string by .75 to make it a more subtle fan..

    slapped it on an old body design I only used once, just for kicks and gigs.

    Y'all are crazy. =]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  20. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

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    That's awesome, Jay! My concern on that design would be that if you wanted to keep the fretted notes on the lowest strings the same as the 4ths of the others then you'd still have a 29"ish 10th string. But, I'm kind of looking for an excuse to just go longer and longer. :lol: but that's the idea I had in my head, in terms of the lowest strings!
     
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