Tax Bill about to Pass (actually matters)

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by wankerness, Nov 30, 2017.

  1. Randy

    Randy ROOMFORYOUROOMFORYOUROOMFORYOU Super Moderator

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    Yeesh, you're right. That last thing I want to do is put more time back on the clock.
     
  2. Randy

    Randy ROOMFORYOUROOMFORYOUROOMFORYOU Super Moderator

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    NP. Things come across a lot different in typing sometimes. I get your point better now and I hope my last post (the longer one) clarifies that understanding.
     
  3. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    No shit, right? :lol:

    Two things - maybe I'm being unfair by taking him at face value, but if UtF says "there was no income tax before the early 1900s," to me, that sounds like he believes there was no income tax before the 1900s. That's categorically untrue.

    And, your second question, put it back in context - "I'm not an anarchist, I think there should be some limited government." "Ok, sure. What do you think that government should exist to do?" "I think it shouldn't do this, this, and this." It's a totally fair question to someone who claims they believe there should be a government and they're not actually an anarchist, because, well, I don't think it's wildly unfair to argue that anything you think should exist should exist for a reason, you know?

    I don't think there's dog-piling going on, per se, so much as a broad attempt to get UtF to commit to what he actually believes in, if not anarchy. But, if this is dogpiling, it's certainly not aimed at you nor is it aimed at libertarianism.

    EDIT - and just saw your apology for the vagueness there. That makes my explanation less necessary, but whatever - carry on. :yesway:
     
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  4. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    Also, the bigger change IMO between ther 1800s and the 1900/2000s is probably the mix of taxation. In the 1800s we did have periodic income taxes levied, but we relied much more heavily on trade tarrifs, excise taxes, duty taxes, stamp taxes, etc, and other forms of taxation on economic activity. In tthe 1900s and onwards we moved from taxing activity to taxing the gains from activity, which from a pure market standpoint I'm a fair amount more comfortable with, because it discourages economic activity less than a gains-based approach to taxation (if you're taxed on the income you gain from engaging in a particular transaction, then high volume, low profit transactions still make economic sense, whereas in a transaction-based taxing structure, the tax costs of transaction quickly make the activity uneconomical. Income tax is essentially a taxation on outcomes, rather than on process, and places the highest taxes (in dollar terms) on the best outcomes, rather than the most attempts. It's a little more pro-growth than a transaction-based tax, which is what we relied on before income tax became more broadbased.
     
  5. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    1. So, under the new tax laws, I don't think I'll see much of a change in my income taxes, overall. I think it looks like I'll be paying a little less base tax and a little more in fees and whatnot. I don't think anyone within the USA would consider me rich by any standard, since I essentially have <1% of my income left after I pay my bills, groceries, and taxes, and I don't have a TV or any leisure expenses other than guitar picks and strings every once in awhile.

    I'm curious as to how many people on this forum would be affected, but I don't want to get personal and actually ask. :lol:

    2.

    As far as eliminating the personal income tax from federal law - honestly, it's a hypothetical discussion at [almost] every level. No congressman would vote to nuke the tax completely, so it's just an academic discussion. I do think, from a purely mathematical perspective, the libertarian philosophy could work if enough people were behind it, but in reality, the majority of people in the USA will always demand government services, so this sort of hard-line libertarianism will never get anyone anywhere. If you want government services, you have to pay for them with taxes. I would like to think that any modern libertarian would identify and acknowledge that reality. Then again, I still voted for Gary Johnson, even though I personally think the guy would be a disaster as president (I just happened to think that every candidate that was actually on the ballot would have been a disaster for different reasons, and that the disaster Johnson would have caused would have been one that I could have been better equipped to handle).

    3.

    I agree. It's not that bad. It wasn't that bad before. Maybe it is a little worse for some people now than it was before, especially those in states like NY, NJ, CA, and new england. I kind of hate to see things go in the wrong direction even when it's not that bad, though.

    The government is terribly inefficient at many many things, but, to be fair, they are the most efficient option at some things. I certainly don't want to give up most government services myself. If I were the president, I would try to push for careful reforms. That is, keeping things as they are whilst trying to figure out the ideal place for things to be and then figuring out how to bridge between without causing the US to collapse before changes could take effect. I disagree with Trump most where he wants to go into things swinging without really providing the public with any logical rationale.

    4.

    Well, hmm, I think it's safe to say that political opinions are a sort of spectrum in several dimensions rather than a black and white right or left. I really don't think that Libertarian ideology gets that extreme, or at least I didn't think so until 2016 or so, even if it does admittedly lean more that way than any of the "other third parties."

    There's freedom, and there's chaos. Personally, I define freedom recursively. Freedom is the ability to do whatever you want, so long as it does not limit another person's freedom. It's a bit sticky, since every freedom we have has to mould around everyone else's freedoms. An anaolgy: you can swing your arms around all you want, as long as no one else is near you. As soon as your arm's reach overlaps with another person's arm's reach, your freedom is changed a little to make sure everyone still has equal rights. I think a "libertarian" would be keen on that definition, but probably democrats and republicans would sometimes agree as well with that sort of approach.

    But there are so many different kinds of "libertarians" (wikipedia) that it's maybe become a silly term to use anymore.

    When it comes to specific policies, I bet that you and I would generally not differ too much.

    5.

    I was putting a hell of a lot of words into another person's mouth, regrettably. The "infographic" provided after the fact pretty much served me those words I said on a plate with a little ketchup on the side to eat them.

    I used to be a card-carrying Libertarian, with a capital L, and since the Bob Barr era, I've forgotten, on occasion, that I've drifted far away from the party's current platform, and especially from some of the other idealists who identify with the party.

    6.

    :yesway:
     
  6. Unleash The Fury

    Unleash The Fury SS.org Regular

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    I did answer your question. You must have missed it.
     
  7. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    ...and this is why, while I think you're completely and utterly wrong, I'd still happily grab a beer with you if the opportunity ever presented itself. :drew:
     
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  8. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    To, ahem, go briefly back on topic, Gov. Cuomo just released his FY19 state budget, which includes 1) the creation of a new employer-based payroll tax to alleviate the impact of the state tax cap, and 2) the creation of two charitable funds New Yorkers can donate to in order to fund the state's education and health care needs, respectively, and in return can receive a state tax credit. Charitable deductions are of course still federally tax deductible.
     
  9. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    I hope Vermont follows that path as well, but knowing how VT is about taxes, they probably won't. :(
     
  10. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    Your property taxes are high enough that this could have an outsized impact on you. I know a few other states, CA most notably, are exploring similar avenues.

    Whether or not it'll withstand IRS scruitiny or legal challenge is another question, but I believe Louisiana did something similar to the "charitable donation" thing a number of years ago and the IRS signed off on it, so there's actually a reasonably clear legal precedent for that aspect.
     

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