Tax Bill about to Pass (actually matters)

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by wankerness, Nov 30, 2017.

  1. wankerness

    wankerness SS.org Regular

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    The South Park nihilism of both sides being equally bad is totally false. The stuff that has happened under Trump is a nightmare situation compared to the standard old crap that we'd have gotten under Hillary. She'd have continued to serve Wall Street, but she'd have paid lip service to the standard mildly liberal agenda and thus wouldn't have just transferred 1.5 trillion from the poor straight to the rich. And she wouldn't have been saber-rattling on twitter, wouldn't have openly endorsed child molesters, wouldn't have completely alienated every other first world country in the world, wouldn't have ditched net neutrality, wouldn't have tried to blow up the Israel/Palestine situation, wouldn't have just opened up as much national park territory for drilling as possible, wouldn't have just cut off funding for child health care to hold the conservatives hostage, etc.

    BUT HER EMAILLLLLSSSSS

    At least during the Bush years, the guy attempted to get along with countries and attempted to be presidential in his behavior. Like, when I recently read what he said about Muslims after 9-11 it actually shocked me. He was kind of a dope and an embarrassment, and this kind of division of wealth was increasing, but he wasn't trying to turn the country against itself or loudly proclaim that the news media was lying to everyone or refusing to work with other countries or espousing hateful opinions.

    We're really in dangerous territory here and I'm terrified of what more can happen before 2020. I am not optimistic about 2018 given how Senate elections work. TWENTY FIVE democrats (2 are independents who vote w/democrats) have to hold their seats, and only EIGHT republicans can possibly be replaced by democrats. Of those 8, some are guys who have been there for years and years that are locks or are in states where you essentially have to be a child molester to lose an election against a democrat, so everyone's "we'll get em in 2018, we'll vote em all out" is blissfully ignorant. It would be NICE if all 100 seats were up at the same time, and if they were there'd be plenty of reason to be optimistic, but when it's only 33 and there are 25 places where things can go wrong and 8 places where things can possibly improve, it's easy to feel defeated. Cause if this doesn't flip the senate, it's another TWO YEARS of this same highway robbery.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_elections,_2018

    There's a chart towards the end there showing who's going where.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2017
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  2. PunkBillCarson

    PunkBillCarson SS.org Regular

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    ^Thing is, it's not exactly untrue about both sides being equally bad. If it's bad, it's bad, regardless of how bad it is. Fuck that, how about some good? Oh that's right... Because neither side truly gives a shit about the people in this country and they would never allow a person who does to take power, and even if they did, the first time they try and get someone to pay their share of taxes or help out with this country's clusterfuck, they would end up getting assassinated. There are people out there that like this country just the way it is because it's in their best interest.
     
  3. Unleash The Fury

    Unleash The Fury SS.org Regular

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    I whole heartedly agree. But dont tell this to narad or hell make a tin foil hat for you ;)
     
  4. PunkBillCarson

    PunkBillCarson SS.org Regular

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    They're free to believe what they will, I don't give a shit. What I believe is what I believe and I could be right, I could be wrong. It could very well be as simple as a bunch of jackasses who don't know any better holding every possible seat and they just don't know what to do with it, but I just highly doubt it. Everyone's got a superior to some degree.
     
  5. wankerness

    wankerness SS.org Regular

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    You honestly think Donald Trump's presidency is exactly as bad as anyone else's would have been?

    The "everything bad is equally bad" argument has always annoyed the crap out of me, and it's REALLY become prevalent recently with that #metoo thing where someone who touched someone's back once is thrown in the same category by those people as violent rapists, but that's something else :D Some things are equally bad, others most definitely are not. That's why we have things like misdemeanors vs felonies.
     
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  6. PunkBillCarson

    PunkBillCarson SS.org Regular

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    When it comes to running the country, I think it's been absolute shit for the last 9 years. I didn't like Obama's reign, I don't like Trump's reign, and I wouldn't have liked anyone else's who would have gotten on that fucking box that everyone "voted" for. Yes, that's right, I put voted with quotes, because if you honestly believe that there are true votes, I don't know what to tell you. And yes, I believe that Trump's "Presidency" is as bad as anyone else's would have been for reasons I have already stated.
     
  7. StevenC

    StevenC SS.org Regular

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    Not to be obtuse, but if the election is rigged, why not make the electoral college and popular vote match?
     
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  8. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    I think people find it comfortable to believe in conspiracy theories because it's like watching a Disney movie: everyone's good or bad and there's a reason behind everything. Part of becoming an adult is acknowledging that people are complex in their motivations and prejudices. You don't need the stone masons to explain a group of people systematically pushing policy that makes America to worse to many people -- in fact, they may actually believe they're making America better / truer to the founding principles by their actions.
     
  9. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

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    I despise Hillary, and I didn't vote for her. However, I do think Trump is having a worse effect on the country. Most of the rank and file republicans can't stand him, either. It's clear he doesn't care about, or understand, most of what is going on. I think there is more than one way to run a country successfully, and I'm never 100% sure if it's the Libertarian or Socialist side that makes the most "practical" sense. Certainly, in the world today, aspects of socialism (like many European countries) seems to work well. At least based on the population's life span, happiness, etc. But Trump isn't actually trying to do anything that would help this country. He SAYS (and said) he is, but constantly does the opposite. I have no idea how people can honestly believe that he is helping the middle class and the poor. He hasn't "drained the swamp" at all. In fact, he's doing just the opposite. He used to criticize Obama for golfing, but he golfs way more. He doesn't listen to his advisors, he won't take responsibility for anything, and doesn't research what he's supposed to be dealing with. I know loads of true republicans who just shake their head about what he's doing. The only people who are still fully behind him are the ones that aren't really looking at things with an unbiased view. And I do not believe he's playing 87 dimensional chess, or whatever bullshit people claim when he does stuff like support Roy Moore, and then say he only supported him because he knew he would lose.
    And as I said before, where are the actual republicans of the party? Where is the small government? Where is the no-handouts, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps sentiment that was the outlook of the republicans for decades? Anyone supporting Trump is either not publicly saying what they believe, or they have no core republican values. Trump is handing out more benefits to corps and special interests, going on a spending spree, and cracking down on higher education (taxing tuition), investing (the mandatory FIFO for capital gains), and doing very little to help the average citizen realize "the American Dream." I had very little problem with Obama (mainly that he was too timid) because I felt like the really cared, and actually stuck to a lot of democratic principles. Trump isn't that at all.
     
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  10. PunkBillCarson

    PunkBillCarson SS.org Regular

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    Who's to say the numbers that were reported were the actual numbers?
     
  11. PunkBillCarson

    PunkBillCarson SS.org Regular

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    Except Disney isn't all that straightforward a lot of the time. I don't know what Disney movies you watch, but a lot of the ones I watched as a child, even the villains were multi-dimensional in their way of thinking and why they were the way they were. I just don't see why it's so hard to believe that there is an elite who gives far more of a fuck about how they're getting their money to afford their lifestyles than the way they get it. Once again, I could be right or wrong, you could be right or wrong.

    In time, I don't think either of us will be proven either way, it's just something that some of us believe and we believe that most people are willfully ignorant and not open minded enough to even consider our point of view while I'm sure you think that we're absolute batshit crazy for thinking there are overly greedy people in the world, but either way, you're going to have to get it in your head that Government doesn't give a flying fuck about any of us and BOTH sides will lie, cheat, and steal. The only difference in the Republicans and the Democrats (civilian wise) is the difference in opinion about who should be lied to, cheated, and stolen from.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2017
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  12. StevenC

    StevenC SS.org Regular

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    Nobody said that. I wasn't even assuming that.

    Now, if I were running the world from the shadows I feel like it'd be easier to not add unnecessary extra steps. If every elected politician is in the pocket of billionaires, why go to the charade of making everything look so divisive? I feel like things would be smoother if it were all a conspiracy. I'd be genuinely disappointed if there turned out to be some ruling elite we don't know about, because they're doing a terrible job for how powerful they must be.

    Though having said that, maybe I'm in on the whole thing and just dissenting to throw you off.
     
  13. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    I feel like this quote could be applied to oh so many ideological divides. Most obvious: religion or atheism? For me, I try to lead an objective, evidence-based life when it comes to how the world works. Because many things "could" be the way the world is, but very few of what could exist but can't be proved will actually be the case.

    And that's a dangerous line of thinking, and a kind of funny spectrum of increasingly crazy ideas. i.e., Even among many believers in fanciful things, one group will be like, "Of course UFOs exist! The government has known for years!!" "Yea, and there are almost as many sightings of bigfoot!" "Yea! And my house is haunted!" [first group]: "uh, wait, what? We don't believe in ghosts." When your reality is shaped by 1% evidence and 99% speculation and faith, you easily wind up in weird places.
     
  14. Ebony

    Ebony Drums

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    The phrase "divide and conquer" comes to mind.
     
  15. StevenC

    StevenC SS.org Regular

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    The way Bill's talking, sounds like we're past the conquer bit already.
     
  16. Unleash The Fury

    Unleash The Fury SS.org Regular

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    Something i find funny is that the naysayers of conspiracy theories always use "UFOs and bigfoot" to make their case........the most popular ones. Id be a naysayer too if UFOs and bigfoot were all that was put in front of me or thats all i was exposed to. Those are the most "cooky" ones, so of course that makes it easy to dismiss and laugh at other conspiracies. I went into a bookstore years ago and asked the guy if he had any books on conspiracy or alternative theories in government, and he said oh you mean like UFOs and JFK? I shook my head, bit my tounge and said, yeah like that.

    Like i said you have to put your head down in the pig bin and do your own research. You have to sit down by candlelight, with a book and magnifying glass, and do your own research and come to a conclusion only after you have looked at both "sides of the story". Dont dismiss alternative theories without having thoroughly read into them. Obviously there is alot of malarky out there, so take everything with a grain of salt. One might call me a conspiracy theorist but ironically, i dont go near or bother with the UFO and bigfoot stories.

    But....... Do you really believe there are no conspiracies in government? In politics? In education? In health? In socio-economics?

    And what exaclty do you expect there to be as for as evidence? What kind of evidence do you need to believe in any story? Do you expect someone on the inside to come forth and admit something is true?

    For example how about Edward Snowden? Is he just a cooky whackjob or was he a whistleblowing hero who exposed Verizon for spying on its customers? Thats a pretty big conspiracy and its well known. I mean the cats pretty much out of the bag on that one. The average joe like me was saying for years that big brother is spying on everyone they can. Then Edward Snowden came out and blew the whistle, exposing Verizon. So did that actually confirm my belief? Or is that not enough proof for you to believe that?

    All one needs to do is look at the symbolism and etymology. For starters, just look at the dollar bill. Why the pyramid? Why the all seeing eye? Why the miniature owl in the corner by the 1 in the corner of the bill? Why would the founders of the Federal Reserve use this symbolism? Why do a bunch of white guys from Germany and England care to use the symbolism of Egyptian style pyramids??? And go from there. Find out where those symbols come from, who uses those symbols elsewhere, and who those people pay allegiance to and why. Follow the money, follow the symbolism. These are important questions that everyone should be asking.

    Why at Yale University in New Haven Connecticut is there such thing as a skull and bones lodge? Why the skull and bones symbol? Why the numbers 322 coinciding with the skull and bones. What does 322 mean? Is it not the brotherhood of death? Does the skull and bones not symbolize posion and death? Oh, then we find out that George w. Bush AND John Kerry attended school there and belonged to the same lodge? (Not to mention the atrocoties commited by Prescott Bush). Bush and Kerry are supposed to be adversaries right? One republican the other democrat, go figure! The skull and bones was also used by the Jolly Roger pirates i believe? Those pirates, so ive read, and so i believe, are agents sent out by the King of England in the 1500's to prospect new land and rape whatever resources they can. That was their job. The pirates of course in american culture were romanticized as swash-buckling, treasure-hiding sea-farers. They were savages! Then you realize that these people are also tied in with the British East India Company who exploited countries for and are heavily involved in the opium trade, and how much influence this particular group has had in the world.

    Why do i believe in this stuff? Because the way the world is, it cant NOT be true.

    These are all important questions that everyone should be asking.

    I know this is quite a tangent, but im fired up. By the way, Merry Christmas everyone
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2017
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  17. PunkBillCarson

    PunkBillCarson SS.org Regular

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    ^Pretty much everything that needs to be said about it. If people really want to believe that Government holds their best interests at heart, they're free to believe it, I'm just not as trusting as they are and I feel that many and myself have good reason to feel that way.

    Also in reply to the question, why make everything so divisive, divide and conquer is one reason, another is to make it seem like you have a choice when you really don't.
     
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  18. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    I'm actually more inclined to believe in UFOs than to believe in a secret cabal of powerful world leaders that manipulate everything -- and like this is the best they've come up with?

    So they go through all this effort to secretly control everything, but that's all so easy so they had to drop some clues on the dollar bill? It doesn't make any sense. And also hilarious is the thought of keeping a system going for 250 years, as the world around them has completely changed, when basically everything has been uprooted in that time, they are the only constant. Oh, and also none of these guys ever had any form of conscience, and are again, two dimensional characters motivated only towards keeping power for themselves? ::sigh::

    This is just a ridiculous thing thing to believe in the face of, "oh yea, the gigantic X industry is lobbying heavily for Y", and pays for ads, and pays for politicians, and pays for votes. Like if you look at the way the system works it's pretty obvious how it is currently being exploited for special interest, but it's not secret, it's right in front of your face -- and you still go looking for an alternative!!

    -- to compare this sort of nutjoberry to Snowden is crazy. We all knew the government was monitoring communications of foreign citizens and diplomats. We also knew they were selectively monitoring US citizens domestically, that were flagged as potential terrorists. There's really nothing surprising to me in the reveal -- I think the people who were surprised don't really understand the technology.
     
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  19. StevenC

    StevenC SS.org Regular

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    That's not even close to what a pirate was...
     
  20. Unleash The Fury

    Unleash The Fury SS.org Regular

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    If someone came to me and told me something that was ass backwards/contrary to what ive leanered and believed my whole life, i would be so interested to learn more about if, wether i believed it or not. I would start to research it to see exactly what the hell said person is talking about. Because thats what open minded people do. Closed minded people just scoff at it and dismiss it.

    Its hidden in plain sight. Its right there on the bill and just the like the other 99%, you dont care or believe it means something after all. So that has worked in their favor already.

    Im not looking for an alternative as far as the symbolism because like you said its right in our faces. Only im questioning what they mean.

    So then it must all just be there for show right? Maybe they had some computer algorithm randomly select some symbols. Maybe the drew pictures from a hat. It must be there for nothing. Carry on.

    And about the spying thing, you are refering to the patriot act that allows gov to collect data from people. Well Ron Paul himself has said that the patriot act was written about 20 years ago, tucked away in a drawer, waiting for the right time to be bestowed upon the people. Id call that a huge conspiracy.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2017

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