Star War Rogue One

Discussion in 'Movies, Books, TV & Media' started by Ibanezsam4, Apr 7, 2016.

  1. A-Branger

    A-Branger SS.org Regular

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    because it was the place were he was "born", Ep III thats were he got beaten up on the lava planet factory thing. Maybe the "castle" is more of the old factory.

    Reason why I have no idea, but as soon as I saw lava I though about that
     
  2. Danukenator

    Danukenator Kane's Bane

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    It's interesting that some people feel the characters in this were either weak or bland. I actually felt the development was quite well done compared to Episode VII.

    I'm reminded of the scene where Finn and Poe befriend each other in the span of 2 minutes as they escape the Star Destroyer. Their interactions as characters seemed inconsistent with what they each knew about one another. Additionally, their interactions were kinda' tonally inappropriate given the rather dark scene which proceeded their escape. I didn't get anything like this from Rouge One. Each character seemed to behave in a manner that was consistent with the plot and each character's individual knowledge.

    Overall, the characters in Lucas style films are never really robust or fully 3-D. Indiana Jones and Luke Skywalker, as characters, are both are defined by their primary motives and a handful of character traits. And I think that is completely appropreate given Star Wars and Indiana Jones are not character studies but rather adventure films. Jyn and Cassian were both sufficiently developed for me to enjoy the characters and sympathize with them.

    However, I am coming off a legendary streak of dud films so I might be overly generous :lol:.
     
  3. wankerness

    wankerness SS.org Regular

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    I saw it again tonight, and the characters seemed even worse this time. Jyn has ONE good scene, which is the one where she watches the hologram. There, you see her as someone that acts so constipated all the time because to not do that is to open herself up to pain. But, then the rest of the movie, she just emits bland platitudes about hope. Those two "inspirational" speeches she gives before the third act are almost as cringeworthy as the "I don't like sand" scene!!

    Cassian and Jyn aren't like...without believable motivations. They're just without interest and lack sufficient character development for anyone to really care by the end. The other characters are even worse. I think the standard audience favorite would be the robot, who does have some good snarky lines throughout. But, besides him, what do we have? There's the defector pilot, who spends almost the entire movie just sitting around freaking out. There's Donny Yen, who kicks ass, but his character is so underbaked I don't think I even know what his name was. They try to substitute him repeating that stupid line about the force over and over for a personality. I kind of like the concept, but he's got no depth or charisma. Same with his husband - that guy seems pretty cool and all, but again, there's no development there. When the movie asks you to care deeply about these guys in the last act, it just does not work. I saw someone try and align this with Mad Max Fury Road, where we get characters with even LESS dialogue who mainly just go through action scenes, but I don't think they're even remotely comparable. Even the wives in that movie have more developed personalities and more charisma than most of these people!

    For all its faults, Episode VII introduced three new characters with VERY strong personalities and put three actors with tremendous charisma in the roles. They might do weird things, or they might be able to be accused of being Mary Sues, but I'd take them over the gray cut-outs in this one ANY day.

    This all said, the space battle in the last act is a thing of greatness, and there are plenty of cool shots throughout. Gareth Edwards is the master of establishing scale of huge things.
     
  4. Danukenator

    Danukenator Kane's Bane

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    I think that's a fair counter-argument. I completely agree that the uplifting, lets have hope speech to the senate-type people was outlandishly awful. It was also kinda hilarious when
    it completely failed :lol:
    .

    I think Cassian deserves more credit, however.
    His introduction, where he killed the informant, established him as a ruthless member of the rebel alliance with an efficient "spy" personality. It was his interactions with other characters that made me like him. The way his personality changed over the course of the film didn't make me think "wow, this character's entire personality changed because Jyn has a great speech writer!" But rather that he made personal choices in accordance with the less explicit parts of his personality. I think (and I'd have to re-watch it) there were several instances where character choices deepened our understanding of various characters.

    And, while I'm happy to see Donnie Yen in anything, I think he and his commando friend were probably included for very specific plot related reasons. Namely that Episode VII didn't make a ....load of money in China and some producers needed to stop that from happening again. :agreed:
     
  5. Andromalia

    Andromalia Pardon my french

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    That will likely work, the copy sellers will make even better business.
     
  6. wankerness

    wankerness SS.org Regular

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    Oh, absolutely. It's completely transparent. While Donnie Yen is wasted (he only gets one real kickass scene and mostly just hits one guy with a stick or shoots one thing with his staff crossbow thing), he THE ACTOR does have a lot of charisma that at least tries to run counter to the lame character. That "are you KIDDING ME" line probably got the biggest laugh with both audiences I saw it with.

    I've seen articles from the Woke Brigade trying to claim their relationship is explicitly gay, but even watching the movie a second time specifically looking for it, there's literally nothing in the movie that suggests anything beyond "very long-term friends." I sort of think those sorts of internet commentators just aren't familiar with the concept of platonic friendship between people of the same gender :lol:

    Plus, considering China's attitudes towards homosexuality, there is NO possible way in hell they'd do anything like that with the Chinese characters :D
     
  7. Xaios

    Xaios Foolish Mortal Contributor

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    I give it a 6.5 or a 7 out of 10. Great action, great visual effects and a good story overall. I found the acting passable to good (I personally think that Mads Mikkelsen's performance was probably the best of the bunch), but they were forced to play characters that I didn't really care about, a fact that wasn't helped by some truly cringe-worthy dialogue.

    In particular, there's a scene in which (hopefully without giving up too much) Cassian is talking to Jyn about committing unsavory acts because they serve the cause. I couldn't help but be reminded of a similar scene from Star Trek: DS9. The gist of the scenes are the same, but the scene from Rogue One pales in comparison because of the dialogue as well as the delivery, which are done better here:



    I also thought that the CGI'd Grand Moff Tarkin and Princess Leia (RIP Carrie Fischer) were seriously uncanny valley, they did not look convincingly human.

    That said, the action and effects were REALLY great. Gareth Edwards really knows how to set up a sense of scale, that's for sure. The overall plot is also good, despite my misgivings about dialogue and characterization.
     
  8. wankerness

    wankerness SS.org Regular

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    On second watch I found the latter CGI character to not look that bad at all. The first didn't get any better.
     
  9. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    I saw it again. I liked it even better the second time. The
    Tarkin
    CGI looked even weirder, though, and the voice still seemed awkward.

    I still don't personally see how the general consensus has become that the charters in Rogue 1 were worse than the characters in Ep VII. Jyn's backstory was sufficient for me to explain all of her motivations. On the other hand, there is no reasonable explanation for Rey's actions in Ep VII. Cassian is a ruthless and efficient soldier, whose choices in the film reflect on his awakening, where he has an epiphany about why he became such a good soldier for the rebellion in the first place, whilst Finn watches his best friend get slaughtered by rebels, which should solidify Finn's allegiance toward the First Order, if anything, yet, at the drop of a hat, he turns on his friends and starts blasting away, without any apparent reason. Mads Mikkelsen's character had only a few moments of screen time, yet he still supplied a character who faced moral dilemma, and cleverly dealt with it in a way that makes perfect motivational sense. K2SO was witty and provided comic relief, yet was still a badass in the final scenes. Donnie Yen and the other guy with the heavy gun might not have had a lot of character development, but, to be fair, they were second string characters in the film, and they still compelled the audience better than Poe Dameron, whose main mission was to apparently disappear and reappear inexplicably throughout Ep. VII.

    I guess you could argue that Director Snidely Whiplash was more a caricature of villainy than an in-depth character, whereas Kylo Ren, despite being the typical Star-Wars-franchise whiny boy angst bad guy, still was a compelling character. But overall, if you are going to compare VII with Rogue One, I'm a little lost at sea when it comes to how VII could be considered a better flick overall.
     
  10. Emperor Guillotine

    Emperor Guillotine The Almighty Ruler

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    Ditto
     
  11. wankerness

    wankerness SS.org Regular

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    Not one single non-robot character has a character arc. NO ONE is in a different place at the end than they are at the beginning. They make the biggest attempt at this with Jyn, but it falls flatter than flat, since they show her being heroic and saving a baby BEFORE what's supposed to be the turning point of her character realizing that she can't only care for herself.

    K2SO is the only one that even remotely changes, but his character is muddy, too. They introduce him as "a reprogrammed imperial droid," but when in the movie does that actually have anything to do with his personality? It is used as a camouflage gimmick a couple times, but that's it.

    The bad guy has LESS personality at the end than he does at the beginning! He seems intelligent and morally conflicted in the very first scene, but he's pure moustache-twirler for the entire rest of the movie. You can tell he has some kind of respect for and history with Galen (or whatever his name is), but that's just completely thrown out the window for the rest of the movie.

    Cassian also is introduced as being moral gray area man with shooting that dude, but then he immediately turns heroic for no apparent reason and stays that way for the entire rest of the movie.

    The characters are vaguely drawn and flat-out bad.

    And Darth Vader? What the hell does he have to do with anything in this movie? The movie is supposed to stand on its own, supposedly, but he has utterly no relevance to the plot and if anyone actually watched this as a standalone they'd be confused as hell.

    I saw someone compare his big scene at the end to if at the end of the movie Glory,
    after all the heroes die for a larger cause, there was a scene where some Confederate general showed up and slaughtered a whole bunch of Union soldiers and you were supposed to think it was awesome.
    Dead on, IMHO. It is great fan-service, but kind of WTF.

    Don't get me wrong, I LIKE the movie, but it has tremendous character problems. I did not get emotionally invested. I just thought the look of it was incredible and thought it remained entertaining throughout.
     
  12. Xaios

    Xaios Foolish Mortal Contributor

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    Oh Lord, not gonna lie, that is a GREAT comparison. :lol:
     
  13. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Jyn goes from simply wanting her freedom, to meeting with Saw, and starts to realize that she needs to make some sacrifices for the rebel cause, after seeing the destructive power of the weapon. It is a character arc, since she goes from simply wanting to run away and disappear and have nothing to do with the empire nor the rebels at the beginning of the story, and then, by the end of the story, she is willing to die for the rebel cause, after what she has witnessed and what she has gained and, more importantly, what she lost. The scene of her saving a baby doesn't contradict anything, since she's never portrayed as a scoundrel, only as someone wanting to run away from her past and her demons. Once she's already involved in a firefight, it is only a small act to run the child away from the battle.

    If you are not compelled by that arc, then that's one thing, but to simply dismiss it as no arc at all, just comes off as arrogant, since, it seems more like you just ignored the details rather than analyzed what was there before concluding that you didn't like it.

    Cassian goes through a simpler arc, but still, it's all happening on screen, and I think I already explained it. Again, if it doesn't grab you, that's fine, but to dismiss it altogether, just seems silly to me.

    I wasn't too impressed with the scene between Vader and the director. All of the Vader stuff at the end was out of place in the film, as a stand-alone, but it worked at a lead-in to Ep IV, so I'll give that a pass as a fan service tie-in, although it might have been better as an after-credits scene. Since the Death Star plans were the McGuffin for Ep IV, and the major plot point of the last act of Rogue One, and the final scene simply shows what happened to them after the battle of Scarif, I think there is some justification for the final scene, but I can see how you could take it or leave it just the same. The statement that the final scene is simply gratuitous is not entirely wrong.

    One issue is that films like this introduce too many characters, and without hope of further character development in sequels and stuff, it's tough to show as much development for each character. Ep IV had similar problems, though. I mean, what was Han Solo's motivation to go back and fight for the Rebels? There's a lot of handwaving with the characters that old films like that get away with. But yeah, I think it's maybe just too many characters to really go in depth. At least there is a main character: Jyn Erso. Who was the main character in Ep I? Obi Wan? Anakin? Did anyone even care, because laser blasts and explosions and STAR WARS? :lol:

    I like Star Wars as much as any 80's kid, but, to me, I'd much rather have had three movies like Rogue One to whatever happened in the prequel trilogy. Heck, I'd take Rogue One over most mainstream hollywood popcorn flicks. Is it on par with Memento, Shawshank Redemption, or even Donnie Darko? No. But if anybody was expecting something with that level of character detail from a Star Wars move, then I don't know what to tell them.
     
  14. blacai

    blacai SS.org Regular

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    Not a fan at all... I am 31 yo and the first one I saw was the Episode VII. I enjoyed it more than Rogue One.

    Rogue One was for me, just some "silly" jokes and from what my friends told me, I need to know all the previous just to get the point, too many references.
     
  15. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    I find what I liked about this movie is that it put some of the mystery back into the universe. Where the prequels were all about explaining everything away, the original movie(s) had a big sense of mystery, adventure, wonder, etc. You were presented with concepts like the force, and left to imagine what its implications were instead of just being told outright. The Jedi were basically these magical space wizards, the limits of their power unknown, their history unknown- and even the characters in the movie treated them this way - Han Solo treats the force like it's a religion or a myth, because in the universe at the time, it was supposed to be.

    Rogue One gives you just a little bit of that back. Characters whose back stories are unknown, but give you just enough to have motivation, but leave enough out to have a sense of mystery. There are times where you can argue that the force is being used, or has a strong influence, but it's not called out, or explicitly said "this person uses the force" - you just see someone with familiar abilities, and are left to wonder what their connection to the force really is.

    Similar to the moment in Ep 7 where the force is used to stop a blaster bolt in mid air- the point is to show us there there are still things about the force (and the characters that use it) to be imagined and explored. The movie is telling us at that there's still cinematic room to explore this universe.
     
  16. wankerness

    wankerness SS.org Regular

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    At no point did I ever hint it was worse than the prequels, besides those two abominable speeches getting close to their level! It's definitely much, much better. I'd give it about a 6.5/10.

    "Cassian is a ruthless and efficient soldier, whose choices in the film reflect on his awakening, where he has an epiphany about why he became such a good soldier for the rebellion in the first place, "

    It seems like he's the same throughout, a dedicated rebel who will do almost anything for the cause, though some of those things make him feel bad (ex shooting the guy at the beginning). It's like he had a bad day at the beginning. It's like he was always the same, at the beginning he followed orders and was sad about it (shooting the guy) and later he didn't follow orders and was less sad about it (not shooting the guy, and then going to help Jyn). Seems like his character is the same throughout and didn't change, just was put in different situations? I dunno. I guess maybe you could say his arc was he realized he didn't have to follow orders.

    Your explanation of Jyn is good, I guess I can buy that. I still think she's bland and that either the actress was wrong or almost everything (the exception being the hologram scene) about the presentation of her was dull. Zero charisma! She's just like your standard action movie tough. There's nothing like the depth of other good action movie heroes/heroines. Like, Nausicaa, or Ripley (in Aliens!), or Max/Furiosa in FR, or A$hitaka (lol word filter).

    I dunno how what I wrote was "arrogant," it's not like I suggested I could do better! :lol: I think this is a problem that might be related to Gareth Edwards. His Godzilla is completely without interesting characters (even though I really like it) and Monsters has two near-ciphers at its core (even though I like that one too!).
     
  17. mongey

    mongey SS.org Regular

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    Saw it yesterday. I liked it allot. I rate it as a better movie than VII

    It does have its flaws , like the speech , but let's not forget so do the originals.

    I thought they did a a great job of making it look and sound like ep IV. The Vader stuff was pure fan service but it is justified given the lead in to IV imho.
     
  18. jwade

    jwade Doooooooooom

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    Loved it, would've preferred it if they'd not featured Vader as much though.
     
  19. protest

    protest SS.org Regular

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    I'll take Vader fan service all day everyday...just sayin.
     
  20. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    The entire Star Wars plot arc is a ride through good versus evil, in some sense. This is presented in a somewhat odd way, though, since, in the Prequels, the Republic is the "good" and the separatists are "evil." As the story progresses, the Republic becomes the Empire, and the separatists become the rebellion, and the roles of good and evil are switched, all the while, a greater evil (Palpatine) is manipulating both of them. Ep III left us with the Empire being born in order to bring peace to the galaxy, and Ep IV had picked up with the Empire being flat out evil, willing to murder entire planets worth of people.

    I had kind of hoped to see Rogue One expose some of the in-between, which it almost did; however, even in the flashback scene, the Imperial force was seemingly willing to murder a man's family in order to pressure him to cooperate.

    I'm the guy in the audience who is way more interested in the villain's character arc than the good guy's. I think people are generally neutral in character until circumstances precipitate to define who they are in deed. Luke, in the OT, made some difficult choices to become the hero in the end. He could have taken a simpler path to assassinate the Emperor or whatever, but, instead he chose to become pacifist when the chips were all down, knowing it could kill him, but he hoped to redeem his father (whom he hardly knew), and it worked.

    In the PT, Anakin started off kind of naive and overly optimistic, became overly angsty and too self-confident, and was manipulated by Palpatine due to his naivety, objection to authority, and overly active emotions. Palpatine had used his apprentices to his whim and then threw them away at the same whims, but Anakin had somehow managed to survive being destroyed by his failure. The part that seemed out-of-place to me, was Palpatine's willingness to rebuild Anakin as a cyborg.

    Anyway, the director, Tarkin, Palpatine, etc., none of them really give us any insight as to what made them evil men, in the films. I'm not saying it's awful, but, to me, there is a missed series of opportunities there for some interesting character arcs. I guess since they all died as villains, with no redemption, it justifies them being extremely one dimensional.

    Maybe it's just me, but, in Ep VII, I thought Kylo Ren had the most potential for character depth. Yeah, he's basically Anakin 2.0 at this point in time, but he seems to have an interesting backstory, and, I hope, it will get more interesting in Ep VIII, and give us some more of his motivation.
     

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