Recording Guitar Tones?

Discussion in 'Recording Studio' started by fob, Sep 28, 2017.

  1. fob

    fob SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    4
    Joined:
    May 24, 2017
    Location:
    Greenville, SC
    So I’ve been trying to use IR for a few months now. The happy medium I’ve come to is make a tone using a cab I like, record with it, and change the cabs and eq and what not after if I don’t like it.

    The main issue I’m having is that when I play the tone, it has life and spank and I can feel the dynamics of what each IR is offering, but in the mix it sounds like it’s muffled behind satan’s butthole under a blanket. The Pod tone cabs however is much harsher and has some noticeable muffled hiss, but still has balls and cuts really well.

    I watched videos on making tones and I’ve learned a few things and even if the tone sounds similar, in the mix it just isn’t working.

    Is it mostly in EQ and all that comes post recording that i get the cut? is the cab mostly offering character, but it’s place in the mix comes after? I want to get in on this sweet IR action but I feel like I’m either doing something wrong or missing something.

    Pod Hd Pro X, Treadplate Pre, no cab (basically 12 clock, nothing more than a quarter past that in any direction) > Pulse or Lecab > and I’m doing ownhammer, redwirez and a bunch of free ones I got online. This is just a common theme in all of them.

    Bonus questions.

    How do I know what cab packs to use (44, 48, 88, 98hz) etc? 500 or 200ms?

    How do I run the IR loader? Individual tracks? or on a bus? Stereo or mono or duel mono? what about leveling?

    Are free IR loaders just fine to use or is Redwirez IR loader or a Two Notes worth investing in?
     
  2. niffnoff

    niffnoff Just another SunBro

    Messages:
    1,876
    Likes Received:
    54
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2011
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    First things first, mix tone is gonna be different vs. your jam tone.

    In the mix, it depends what your bass tone is doing. Are you taking out the mids in the bass tone for your guitars to fit? Are your drums overpowering the mix? You're gonna need to give us a clip before we could probably help.
     
  3. fob

    fob SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    4
    Joined:
    May 24, 2017
    Location:
    Greenville, SC
    I’m aware of all this. the bass and drums sit nice with each other but the guitar doesn’t sit well with the IR as much as the cab in the POD. i wanna know why. because i like the character and feels of it more, plus the option to change it later.
     
  4. steinmetzify

    steinmetzify CHUG & SLUDGE

    Messages:
    4,547
    Likes Received:
    896
    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2012
    Location:
    In the shadow of a mountain near SLC UT
    Very basically you’re wanting this one thing to be one thing all the time and it just won’t. This is comparing a beautiful operatic singing voice to that voice mixed in with a bunch of different random chatter at an intermission. There are frequencies there you’re unaware of, but absolutely effect the final mix.

    Like he said, jam tone isn’t mix tone. You shouldn’t be looking for great tones before you record, you should be looking for great tones in the mix. They’re not one and the same. Great jam tones are fun by yourself in the bedroom, but almost all of em lack mids for that super chuggy stuff.

    Mids are your friend for cutting thru a mix; likewise a HP/LP filter on your guitar tones. Try a notch at 50 for your master FX too; I run really bass heavy headphones when mixing and need that to make sure the bass isn’t smashing the guitars.

    Bonus questions are 44 and 200ms. You’re going to hear a lot of opinions on this but in the end if you’re just recording at home WGAF. IR loaders on each guitar track, that way you can pan them/use separate cabs.

    Said already but do it. Post a clip of your jam tone that you really like and a mix tone that is bothering you and we can help.

    This is noob status and you probably already know this but I’ll say it anyway; if you have a great bedroom tone kick the mids up by two and cut the gain in half for doubling tracks.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2017
  5. steinmetzify

    steinmetzify CHUG & SLUDGE

    Messages:
    4,547
    Likes Received:
    896
    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2012
    Location:
    In the shadow of a mountain near SLC UT
    Far as leveling goes, I usually start out with individual tracks at about -15 or so. Tracking guitars master volume is between -12 and -18.

    This will go up when you apply whatever EQ you’re doing to each track and your Master.
     
  6. Nicki

    Nicki SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    325
    Likes Received:
    70
    Joined:
    May 27, 2012
    Location:
    Toronto, ON
    This.

    It is exactly what is missing from what you're describing. In a mix, treble will give you definition to a point, beyond that point, you get hiss. Bass will give you oomph but too much oomph and it sounds muffled.

    Mids are the happy medium of it all. They'll cut right through and accentuate the definition from the mids and give clarity to the bass while not overpowering the rest of the mix.

    As a fellow POD owner, I strongly suggest you either drop the Treadplate in favor of the Uberschall clone or go with Fluff's Recto patch. Despite the Treadplate being the worst clone of a Rectifier, Fluff did a good job getting a mix-ready tone.
     
  7. schwiz

    schwiz Lefty

    Messages:
    1,076
    Likes Received:
    84
    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2013
    Location:
    Burnsville, MN
    All about them mids. For a while my guitar tones were hissy and fizzy and I didn't know why. The patches sounded great when I was jamming, but didn't translate in a mix. I started comparing my tones to other tones from records that I like and mine had way too much high end. That high end on the guitars was also competing with vocals and other instruments in my mixes, causing muddiness.

    For your cab packs: If your Reaper/Cubase/Logic session is set to 44.1khz, use 44.1khz IR's. If it's set to 48khz, use 48khz. Pretty simple. Match the IR with the project sample rate. I mostly use 200ms as my projects are almost always in 48khz.
     
  8. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

    Messages:
    26,337
    Likes Received:
    1,874
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2004
    Location:
    Somerville, MA
    You're "aware of this," but this is the exact issue you're running into, that the tone you like the sound and feel of when it's solo'd is getting buried in a mix. Try using a brighter, middier, and less bassy sounding IR, which you likely won't like the sound of as much solo'd, but will probably punch through the mix and sound great.

    If there's any way you can share a clip of one of your mixes, that might help too.
     
  9. fob

    fob SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    4
    Joined:
    May 24, 2017
    Location:
    Greenville, SC
    Thanks for all your replies everyone. I learned a few things!

    I think I tried to imply that I am attempting to make a tone for the context of the mix by saying I like the POD tone without IR in the mix better than the POD with IR in the mix. This is more of a in general question of what is causing this sound? because I can use the Treadplate on the POD with an internal cab and it’ll fit the mix better in general, but the IR always sounds muffled in general.
     
  10. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

    Messages:
    26,337
    Likes Received:
    1,874
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2004
    Location:
    Somerville, MA
    Oh wait... Are you recording with the POD, using the POD's cab emulation, and then adding an IR cab emulator onto the recorded tone?

    If you are, don't do that. :lol:"
     
  11. fob

    fob SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    4
    Joined:
    May 24, 2017
    Location:
    Greenville, SC
    No! Haha. I have tried it though.

    option 1 > with pod cab
    option 2 > with IR loader (pod cab off)

    both options using a drive pedal with the standard settings (0 drive, high level and tone). both using the pre amp model of the POD amp sim.

    so within the mix, in general, the IR loaders sound good, but always sound like they’re behind a wall in comparison to the POD cab that stands out in the mix but isn’t as nice of a tone in the mix however.
     
  12. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

    Messages:
    26,337
    Likes Received:
    1,874
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2004
    Location:
    Somerville, MA
    Ok, let's hone in on this part, because this is what's throwing me.

    "In general, the IR sounds good" and "it sounds like it's behind a wall" are contradictory statements. Sounding like it's behind a wall is NOT sounding good. Can you clarify a bit?
     
  13. fob

    fob SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    4
    Joined:
    May 24, 2017
    Location:
    Greenville, SC
    Tone wise, good. Mix wise, not good. Pod cab is mix wise better, but tone was not as good.
     
  14. fob

    fob SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    4
    Joined:
    May 24, 2017
    Location:
    Greenville, SC
    Ill try to post a clip later also.
     
  15. steinmetzify

    steinmetzify CHUG & SLUDGE

    Messages:
    4,547
    Likes Received:
    896
    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2012
    Location:
    In the shadow of a mountain near SLC UT
    Thought of something. Where are you running the IR loader in the chain?

    Where it is can have a muffled effect.
     
  16. fob

    fob SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    4
    Joined:
    May 24, 2017
    Location:
    Greenville, SC
    So I usually have it first in the chain of my DAW. So the POD settings are going directly to the IR loader.

    Is the Redwirez loader worth getting? I’m using freebies right now
     
  17. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

    Messages:
    26,337
    Likes Received:
    1,874
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2004
    Location:
    Somerville, MA
    So, backing up to the original question I and a few others asked, it sounds good solo'd, but not good in the mix?

    It's probably too dark a mic position in the IR. Try a brighter IR, modeled closer to the center of the cone of the speaker. Don't worry how it sounds alone, worry about how it sounds in the mix.
     
  18. fob

    fob SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    4
    Joined:
    May 24, 2017
    Location:
    Greenville, SC
    Im not saying solo’d. I can hear the tone characteristics of it but it all sounds muffled. I have Heavy Hitters 2, Godcab, a bunch of free and others. It’s just in general a muffled sound. Like I said I’ll post a clip. If you also have specific cab recommendations or combinations I’ll be happy to try them. It could be user error but I do understand and am making it for the mix not solo’d and all that.
     
  19. schwiz

    schwiz Lefty

    Messages:
    1,076
    Likes Received:
    84
    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2013
    Location:
    Burnsville, MN
    Try this signal chain: OD pedal (with the settings u posted earlier), Treadplate amp, Cab simulation off.

    Next load up your IR loader. For the HH collection, I almost always start with the "Quick Mix" IR's and 99% of the time I load up the SM57 IR for any cab I'm using. I'll blend 2 of the IR's with the SM57 together. Then, if I'm not satisfied, I'll reach for the 421 or the 121 (I think thats it), and blend those in with the SM57. By the time I'm satisfied with my tone, I usually have 4-6 different IR's blended together. I use mixIR, and IMO is the best 64bit loader out there right now that will allow you to blend in multiple IR's together.

    Just keep experimenting. Keep trying different things. You will get it!
     
  20. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

    Messages:
    26,337
    Likes Received:
    1,874
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2004
    Location:
    Somerville, MA
    I'm thoroughly confused. :lol: If it sounds "muffled," it doesn't sound "good." Or, if it sounds "good," it doesn't sound "muffled." Or, if it sounds good and the mix sounds good but the Pod's cabs are cutting through the mix better, then odds are they don't sound and the mix doesn't sound as "good" as the IR mix, so don't worry about it. :lol: But, I'm having a really hard time understanding what your problem here is, it can't be both "good" and "muffled" at the same time.

    About 99% of my recording is done through a Recto 4x12 with a SM57 and a MD421. Like, a physical cab and two physical mics. If you can't get an IR to work, I'd suggest maybe trying a more old-school approach. :lol:
     
    schwiz likes this.

Share This Page