Please tell me someone on here has heard about "OCCUPY WALLSTREET"

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Fabrizi0, Sep 30, 2011.

  1. Randy

    Randy Ooh, Degrasse Tyson-son Super Moderator

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    These are my thoughts, exactly.

    When I was a kid, not to be offensive, but the meme was that vocational schools (BOCES up here) were for mentally challenged kids. I had no idea what it actually was until... maybe senior year? And I was no longer eligible at that point.

    Hell, who says a vocational program has to be the last step? The way I see it, you teach kids a trade and they can either go that route as a career or take that information and apply it to their chosen career and education. Welding is a decent trade but if it's not for you, you get experience understanding the strength and use of welds, general metalworking skills etc. and if you pursue structural engineering, you've got firsthand experience with how the designs are implemented. Apply that example to whatever other trades that can be offered at that level.

    And the military thing is a great point, which I've been harping on for a while. Somebody in the armed forces could chime in with more details but I've been under the impression that for all the training you get in the military, none of that applies as credit/experience when you go to school and it doesn't get noticed enough on a job application. I'm not 100% on how accurate that one is but I've heard of issues there before.

    Totally with you on the credit transferring thing. A nightmare trying to transfer credits across state borders and almost as much trouble transferring credits across county borders, or CC to state or CC to private university; with some exceptions.
     
  2. MFB

    MFB ExBendable

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    Right now I have zero support. I have $1100 in the bank, which will slowly be used up between paying cell phone, car insurance, and so on in the next upcoming months until I get a job. Since they're student loans they don't require being paid off until six months after I graduate (Spring 2014) so that's why I'm trying to get a job now and immediately start paying it off.

    Bob, in regards to your Pell Grant comment, do you realize how little you have to make to qualify? I make $16K my last year of working retail, and on my own applying for it without any of my mother's information - I STILL didn't qualify. That's a little over $1000/month which was eaten up by a car payment, insurance payment, cell phone bill, gas for the car, and groceries so very little of it was actually left over for me to "play with." No one WANTS to take out a loan with any type of interest rate and now that they'll have to pay it back. It's not like we did it for shits and giggles to go "teehee I have a loan, isn't this cool?!"

    It's a necessity. Sure, there's scholarships and grants, but there's also millions of other college kids fighting for them that might have better sob stories than me; to which case, I'm fucked because they'll get before me so what can I do then? Take dozens of years off to accumulate the money to pay for the start of my education, and then what? What do I do for the next years worth of payment? Stop and do it all over again? There's no WAY you can work long enough to entirely cover the cost of a full college tuition and everything as a kid, and parents have other things to cover so they can't be expected to cover all of it either.
     
  3. Grand Moff Tim

    Grand Moff Tim Some call me... Tim

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    It may depend on what the person does in the military, but I'm 100% positive that some Military training absolutely does provide transferrable college credits. Hell, just being in the military gets everyone a transferrable physical education-type credit. Personally, my training was at the Defense Language Institute and entailed 18 months of intensive Arabic language training, and at the end of it all I was left with enough transferrable credits to be a couple of Gen Ed courses away from a degree in Middle Eastern Studies. In fact, were it not for being able to use some of the 300-level course credits I got from my training as 300-level elective credits when I finally went on to University, I likely wouldn't have been able to graduate in four years. They were a real time-saver (except, you know, for all the time I spent in the military :lol:).

    Bob was a nuke, and their training is long and arduous too, so I'd be pretty shocked if he didn't get some credits out of the deal as well, but I won't put words in his mouth.
     
  4. flint757

    flint757 SS.org Regular

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    Yeah as I said before there is a lot of misinformation towards Pell grants. Even if you qualify financially you run into similar problems where you are competing against other low income individuals. They only offer so many a year and things will vary state-to-state.

    And Randy that's a good point about the stepping stone factor. I'd say engineers, architects, and even business majors would benefit greatly from the hands on knowledge.

    As for military, I have heard some horror stories as well. When I was in High School I made $8 an hour at Baskin Robbins and a guy, who came from Alaska and just got out of the military, got hired on making less than I did as a 16 year old high school kid. It's definitely not a guarantee for a good life either, but obviously it doesn't have to work out that way.
     
  5. SirMyghin

    SirMyghin The Dirt Guy Contributor

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    This is completely OT, but I really want what you consider a decent car.. :lol:
     
  6. The Reverend

    The Reverend GHETTO KING OF SWAG

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    I see that we finally agree on something! :lol: Although, to be fair, at my school you lose eligibility for financial aid, including Stafford loans, if you don't maintain at least a 'C' average.

    I'm not eligible because my parents made too much money both last year and this year, though my mom was laid off and we've been in the bankruptcy process.

    As an interesting side note that will provide some insight into my perspective: My mother worked at Hewlett Packard for 23 years, earning a B.A. in Business (that they paid for, coincidentally) before she was laid off. For most of my life, she made more than my dad did. He's been in the oil industry for 20-something years, until he became an operations manager for T3 Energy, running a multimillion dollar shop in Mexico. He never graduated or got his G.E.D., and hates that young guys will get hired on at positions he had to work for, and get paid more. I have direct evidence of where both paths lead in my life, and to be honest, I'm going to stick to college. My dad was a grunt for half his life, and had to work in shitty conditions, with shitty hours, for shitty pay. Being a blue-collar worker is fine if survival is all you require, but I'd like to enjoy my life a bit more than he was able to. He missed out on a lot of things in his kid's lives, because he had to work overtime to make ends meet.

    OWS wasn't strictly about something-for-nothing, rather, that's what the media and those not willing to be open-minded and considerate wanted it to be. It's about receiving more than debts and low pay for trying to be a productive member of society. It's about regulating corporations who have fetishized the bottom line, and would rather fire my mother two years from retirement than pay her. It's a call for a change in the social attitude of America and a call for more balanced economic policies. If anyone thinks that the American system is not broken/breaking, then we'll have to agree to disagree. :lol:
     
  7. flint757

    flint757 SS.org Regular

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    You said 25k a year for 7 years which comes out to 175k and half of that is 87.5k. I rounded a bit :lol:, but unless you meant something different than what you said or I interpreted that wrong I wasn't far off.

    Since your saying I was off I'll just assume I misread your post as that first part seemed to contradict the second.

    [EDIT]

    Never mind I just misread your post upon further looking. That being said if you did have 175k invested into school how'd you keep your debt so low by the time you left?
     
  8. bob123

    bob123 Banned

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    96 credits for me, 42 applied towards my engineering degree + dantes/clep + education at sea. Took me a year to get my engineering degree.


    Im merely going by their list of proposed demands. To eradicate credit agencies, to start everyone at zero debt, to equalize pay of janitors with heart surgeons, etc etc.... This is a dog-eat-dog world my friend. Its not always meant to be "Fair" and "Equal" to everyone. That would be a nice utopia, but it wont happen. I agree, some socio-economic reform would be prudent, but I do not believe a complete lather-wash-rinse of the whole thing is the answer either. Change must be slow and painful, or it will simply fail and revert to previous state.
     
  9. flint757

    flint757 SS.org Regular

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    Just out of curiosity was there ever an official list? Proposed sounds more like a group of people got together and just started spit balling to see what sticks.

    Equalizing pay to that extreme would be quite ridiculous, no doubt about it, but I feel like as a whole you are oversimplifying things. Change doesn't "have" to be slow and painful to work, it does make going back seem less desirable (leading to better retention), but it isn't impossible. There is no such thing as easy change either as someone is always getting a shorter stick.
     
  10. bob123

    bob123 Banned

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    Change is always slow and painful. The very nature of change is to BE slow and painful.

    Anyway, heres their demands :lol::lol::lol:

    [​IMG]


    And heres a list of income demands... which is even MORE hilarious.

    Bankers $20,000
    Lawyers $27,500
    Realtors $25,000
    Doctors $28,000
    Nurses $27,500
    Teachers/Librarians/Train Engineers/Bridge Maintenance/Ship Pilots, etc. $35,000
    Police $36,000
    Public Servants $28,500
    Laborers $20,000
    Other public sector $30,000
    Other private sector $29,000
    Technical/Research/Academic $36,000
    Entrepreneurs/Business Owners $10,000
    Congress $30,000
    President 40,000
    Soldiers N/A
    Defense workers $25,000







    This is why I dont take them seriously. Its not asking for "Change" its asking for impossible scenarios and getting all bitched up when it doesnt happen.
     
  11. Fiction

    Fiction For Mod

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    LOL.jpg

    (Goes for the whole thing, but those are my favourites)
     
  12. bob123

    bob123 Banned

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    And that's why I don't take those clowns seriously.... yeah I called them clowns again.... oh well.
     
  13. Demiurge

    Demiurge Intrepid Jackass

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    I wonder if the creator of that list is willing to give me his house in Vineyard Haven ($$$$$$) if I agree to keep paying-down my student loans.
     
  14. flint757

    flint757 SS.org Regular

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    I sincerely doubt that was everyone's goals as parts of that just sound like they were written by a teenager.

    I disagree with 1 and 3, where did they come up with a trillion for 6 and 7 :lol:, isn't 8 already the case :scratch:, 10 sounds like people subscribing to election conspiracies, and whether 11 and 12 are good idea or not it will never happen. That list is way overly ambitious. The rest I can see where they are coming from. Closing financial borders and opening country borders is about as contradictory as it gets too. Eliminating all debt is a terrible idea, credit is cash, if you paid with a credit card you determined you were going to pay it off. Now, if for whatever reason you get overwhelmed you can file bankruptcy to forgive some debt and consolidate into a single payment (albeit while destroying your credit). Eliminating credit reporting makes credit unreliable as no one can be held accountable.

    As I said before I have my doubts that this was the completely decided upon list for the OWS movement. There is a problem, they have shed some light on it and it does need resolution. However, if this indeed was the majority agreed upon goals then it is no surprise things didn't go anywhere much like the "Zeitgeist Movement" (people need to ground themselves more in reality instead of unreachable ideals)

    [EDIT]

    Upon further inspection that list of wages was written by 1 individual and was buried in a list of documents. Fits with my spit balling theory honestly. All that aside there were many self inflicted wounds for the movement.
     
  15. bob123

    bob123 Banned

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    These are documented lists supported by OWS. Where does the accountability begin????
     
  16. The Reverend

    The Reverend GHETTO KING OF SWAG

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    Accountability?

    Bob, if I reposted every vile, ignorant post on stormfront.org regarding military removal of minorities, would you take that as indicative of the entire community of soldiers and ex-soldiers? I'd hope not.

    Again, if you subscribe to the notion that in America, profiting off the suffering of others is just good business, than we'll have to end this discussion. I don't believe in the kind of 'power' you believe in on a philosophical basis. I'm physically capable of doing almost whatever I want, and sans weapons and/or martial training of some sort, most people wouldn't be able to stop me. Is it okay for me to take what I want? It is, after all, a dog-eat-dog world.

    No, the reason we have laws like we do, and rights, is to make everything equal and fair to a certain extent. There are a lot of ways in which the very rich, and the companies that made them that way, as well as banks, take advantage of loopholes and people in an effort to capitalize in every which way. Unbridled greed should not be rewarded like it is, when it comes on the backs of American citizens. Social Darwinism, or rather, corporate Darwinism, exists purely to the exclusion of an entire sector of Americans, like my family. A certain practical measure of reform and progressive lawmaking is needed to make sure there will be a healthy balance in the economy.
     
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  17. flint757

    flint757 SS.org Regular

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    Then why are they proposed goals and not official goals? I mean the radical left and right in our government propose a lot of crazy things, do we then go on to assume that they were taken for the whole party without question?

    What/who are you referring to about accountability???
     
  18. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    Interesting assertion.

    I'm not arguing that people didn't have legitimate concerns... but AdBusters was the company which started this. It wasn't a grassroots movement. It wasn't a non-profit. It was a foreign company spending its money to alter American politics, not even American but Canadian, based in Vancouver BC.

    Best disguised astroturf ever, no? *laugh*

    ----

    The other aspect of this whole thing which has always bothered me is... I like the Constitution. As soon as a group starts with demands, instead of trying to bring about legitimate change through legitimate Constitutional means, it immediately becomes anti-American.

    Some don't care about the Constitution, and there's no requirement that someone should respect and believe in the core of American politics and society. However, that doesn't clear them of being anti-American, just as Bush and others were anti-American when they tossed out the importance of the Constitution with the famous Ashcroft assertion about exercise of free expression, "Dissent is terror."

    "I make this demand. If you don't agree, I'll act out." Blackmail, not the American way. Embrace that sentiment and strategy if you will, the way of terrorists, hostage-takers and others, but don't make it out to be American.
     
  19. flint757

    flint757 SS.org Regular

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    Well I was more referring to the people's original motive for protesting. I mean companies like CREDO use politics to further their interest, but the politics they support (even if only for profit) are something people can still agree with. But I see we are not arguing this point as you said the people had legitimate concerns most likely.

    I do agree making outright demands (no compromise approach) is counterproductive and some of the demands were quite ridiculous. They needed to start with actual achievable goals (much like my opinion of Zeitgeist as I have said before). I wouldn't say making demands is anti-american though. Unions do this all the time and most people like unions and unions, in a way, are at the core of our country when we were developing into an industrialized nation. When people boycott a product or company they are also making demands basically (change your product/policy or I'm not shopping here anymore). That being said I don't think anyone claimed that this approach is the american way.

    The movement failed for a reason; it lacked direction, demands were out there, there were no baby steps (that's the way it seemed at least), the media trivialized the movement, people who like to just cause trouble slowly joined in on the fun (like that idiot kid from that video posted earlier). That doesn't change the fact that something needs to change and things need fixing (something that they arguably achieved, check out the Democrat's political position) whether or not the company involved had ill intent or not.

    As an aside the Constitution is a living breathing document that was designed to evolve and change, not a list of hard facts. The constitution has included/excluded things and people that would be seen as wrong in today's time so it is not infallible and therefore doesn't necessarily mean someone is acting anti-american either. I will agree though that some of the things that Bob listed earlier of the OWS demands were quite ridiculous and juvenile so I could see how one might take that as anti-american. I see it more as ignorance though.
     
  20. Xaios

    Xaios Foolish Mortal Contributor

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    When I was a teenager, I worked as a gas jockey for a little while. At one point, the owner of said station was looking for a slogan. I, quite jokingly, came up with "We'll Freeze For You" as a possibility, based on the fact that, because it was a full serve station, we did more business the colder it got during the winter. The owner overheard me and promptly told me that he'd pay me $200 to use it. The deal was made, and to this day it's still their slogan, they even use it in radio ads (you know it's a small town when gas stations have radio ads :lol:).

    My point being that a good idea should never be dismissed out of hand simply because of where it came from and the motives behind it (although knowing the source of an idea could potentially merit closer scrutiny to determine whether or not it really is a good idea). I've been quite critical of the Occupy movement ever since its inception, and they definitely go overboard. However, fair and balanced wages, good healthcare and the right to access a good education at a reasonable price are still things worth fighting for, as they are some of the hallmarks of a proper civilized country.
     
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