My first ERG guitar... buy the right one !

Discussion in 'Extended Range Guitars' started by grigou, Oct 16, 2017.

  1. gujukal

    gujukal SS.org Regular

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    I would go with 27 frets, upper frets on 36 fret neck will be a nightmare to play on if the scale length is under like 30".
     
  2. gujukal

    gujukal SS.org Regular

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    I would go with 27 frets, upper frets on 36 fret neck will be a nightmare to play on if the scale length is under like 30". Neck pickup will also sound warmer further up the neck.
     
  3. grigou

    grigou SS.org Regular

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    Thank you for the help.
    My luthier told me that I could have 29 frets and a neck pickup. They will be close together, but it's doable.
    I don't know if there's a lot of difference between a neck pickup on a 27 frets guitar and a neck pickup on a 29 frets guitar.
     
  4. gujukal

    gujukal SS.org Regular

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    Cool, no it's probably only like a cm closer to the bridge than 27 frets. Shouldn't affect tone much
     
  5. grigou

    grigou SS.org Regular

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    Ok, nice.
    I'm doing some compromises on register, but it's quite fun and exciting for me to think about this guitar project :)
    Any clues for the midi knob ?
     
  6. grigou

    grigou SS.org Regular

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    Me again with news !

    My current guitar specifications :
    • headless multiscale (29) and no vibrato
    • body : basswood
    • neck : maple
    • fretboard : rosewood
    • 8 strings : E1 B1 E2 A2 D3 G3 B3 E4
    • 29 frets
    • tuners Mera
    • 2 split humbuckers Bare Knuckles
    • 1 volume knob
    • 2 tone knobs (lowpass & highpass)
    • 6 MIDI knobs
    • 6 MIDI switchs
    • 1 killswitch
    • luminlays
    Now, I have to choose the two Bare Knuckles pickups.

    I love djent rhythms like Animals As Leaders and Meshuggah, but I also love Metallica and Gojira tone.

    For lead, I love Malmsteen tone, Vai tone on For the love of god, Satch tone on Circles solo and Gilmour fat lead tone.

    For clean, I love Gilmour tone, especially on Shine solos and Echoes (+ Satch clean part in Circles)

    Just to give you an idea, this is 2 videos with my actual G&L + Axe-FX II :



    For gain tone, I need very precise and surgical pickup, but also powerful, creamy with good clarity, sustain and great separation between notes.

    For clean tone, I want warm sound but not too bassy since I do a lot of two-handed tapping and arpeggios with a lot of resonance, so I don't want my clean part to be a muddy mess. So warm but also enough clearity to keep great perception of each individual notes.

    I listened a lot of samples in Bare Knuckles website since 2 days, and I made a comparison with rhythm tone / lead tone / djent tone / clean tone with 11 pickups : aftermath, painkiller, black dog, cold sweat, juggernaut, miracle man, nailbomb (alnico and ceramic) ragnarok, warpig (alnico and ceramic) and holy diver.

    For rhythm tone, I kept painkiller, miracle man and warpig alnico.

    For lead tone, I kept painkiller, miracle man/cold sweat (couldn't heard the difference between them) and mostly the juggernaut far away from every other pickup. Awesome presence and clarity in the mix. Juggernaut litterally eat rhythm guitars while all other pickups seems very covered by rhythm tracks.

    For djent tone, I kept painkiller, miracle man and cold sweat.

    For clean tone, I kept painkiller and cold sweat.

    So, I left the juggernaut because I like it only for lead tone, same with warpig (and it was not my favorite choice for rhythm tone).

    So, I hesitate between 3 pickups : painkiller, miracle man and cold sweat.
    • Painkiller (bridge) + Cold sweat (neck)
    • Painkiller (bridge) + Miracle Man (neck)
    • Miracle Man (bridge) + Cold sweat (neck)
    Painkiller seems to fit well for all gain tone and I love that clean tone ! The best one for it's great clarity (but lack of warmness obviously).

    I like the Cold sweat clean tone too. It have the warmness the Painkiller don't have. Good match I think.

    Miracle Man seems really as good as the Painkiller for gain tone and Cold sweat is also really great for rhythm tone and djenty stuff ! Really hard for me to choice between them for gain tone.

    Miracle Man clean tone is the worst one for me. Too bassy with a lot of resonance, so I'm afraid that this pickup will make my tapping/arpeggio part sound like a muddy mess.

    But again, I'm only judging with Bare Knuckles samples, so maybe I'm thinking wrong.
    So I need you guys ! :)
    What do you think ?
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
  7. iamaom

    iamaom SS.org Regular

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    I think it's a really kitchen-sinky guitar and those specs are insane, but it's your guitar. If you want one specific tone that you're chasing then build the guitar around that instead of having an expensive monstrosity with a million knobs and switches built and then never touch them after you've gotten the sound you want. I don't think pickups will matter that much if you're planning on having midi effects, the guitar will have so much post-processing any slight tone differences between pickups won't matter. It seems like you're just adding more and more crap to the guitar and trying to micromanage every detail in chasing some perfect tone that you will probably never achieve. This isn't even considering the amp you're using and the pedals you're using and the pick you're using, etc. I think you're just falling into a money trap and a wild goose chase, you don't seem to really know what you want and you're willing to ask random people on the internet advice on what sounds like a big investment in time and resources. The guitar you plan on will also be pretty much unsellable if you ever find yourself in need of money or not wanting the guitar again. I'd seriously recommend getting a used RG8 and piecemealing it into what you want, if not a permanent guitar then at least if you find you really don't like something or change your mind you won't be out a lot of money.

    There are people on this forum and others who have spent thousands of dollars on instruments they don't like in just a few weeks. There are insane people on TalkBass who buy a $10k custom Fodera and wait over a year for it, and then it's posted on the used forum almost as soon as they get it and go back to playing their MiM p-bass. There are plenty of us who jumped on the 8 string craze only to realize they don't need that 8th string and go back to 7 or 6. I'm not trying to single you out or call you a dumbass or anything, just trying to give you advice based on experience.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
    Dineley likes this.
  8. grigou

    grigou SS.org Regular

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    Hey ! Thank you for taking the time to make this detailed answer !

    No problem iamaom ! It's always good to have another opinion. ;)

    First of all, I think you're on the wrong way, because you misunderstood the purpose of this guitar. But hey, it's normal, you can't know it because I didn't give any detail about that in my previous post ! :)

    I can assure you that all specs of this guitar are needed for me and I will use it for sure. It's not random choices for fun. I will use this guitar mainly for composition (+ some covers) and sound design purposes (drone/ambient music or non-related guitar music like soundtracks and interactive installations).
    So, I will use this guitar for playing guitar music AND for experimental sound creation with Ableton Live and Max/MSP.

    I wanted an 8 strings guitar from almost 15 years ! When I was a teenager, I didn't dare to buy one because everybody always told me that it was risky, that I will not be satisfied with it, that I will come back to 6 strings and blablabla... 15 years after, I still want 8 strings and I just lose time listening to bad advices from people who don't know anything about my musical needs !

    I need this extra range for composition (mainly clean arpeggios, chords progressions and two-hand tapping stuff), sound design, playing some Meshuggah and Animals As Leader and making arrangements of movies / video games soundtracks and classical music (that requires oftenly extended range in both low and high register).

    And I know I will use fully 7 and 8 strings because I'm currently writing new stuff that require this low range, so I'm making temporary version for 6 strings waiting for my 8 strings.

    29 frets is for sound design and ambient stuff. I love the sound of glassy clean arpeggios/melodies in very high register. Well, for that point, I guess I could also get that with a whammy, but not exactly the same tone and feeling. Also great for playing some violin pieces (bach/vivaldi).

    Not as expensive as you might think ! About 2500€ for that guitar and 4 months to have it. :)

    That's why I said before that you are on the wrong way.
    I don't use MIDI effects at all ! It will be a regular guitar sound. I use MIDI only to control my computer and software like Ableton Live and Max/MSP directly from the guitar. Post-processing will occur only when I will do experimental music and sound design.

    I always play alone in live and I use video projection and electronic sound diffusion.
    For now, I'm dealing with a pedalboard for my guitar tones + MIDI pedals for triggering videos and electronics. Honestly, it's really a pain in the ass !!! :D

    I wanted to control all that directly from my guitar, so the 6 MIDI knobs will be use to control video/audio effects (fade in/out and dry/wet) and the 6 MIDI switchs will be use for trigger events (audio samples, videos, effects).

    The killswitch is for rhythm and glitchy effects, since my videos are mainly based on glitch and databending effects. I'm very inspired by Buckethead for this (with all that computer/video games sounding effects).

    I already use the 2 tone knobs on my G&L and I find them really useful, that's why I wanted to keep them on my next guitar.

    Luminlays is because on some live, I need to play part of the concert without any light sources (in contrast with some aggressive flashy videos projections), and sometimes it's was really hard to know where I was on the guitar !

    I play only with my Axe-FX II, MFC-101 pedalboard, vovox jack and pick dunlop 2mm.

    I know what tone I want (for clean and hi gain), I thought my previous post was rather precise on that point. But, I don't know well Bare Knucles pickups. Samples helps a lot, but not enough to make the final choice ! That's why I ask for advices on this.

    I had already considered a factory guitar, like the Schecter Hellraiser, but my needs are very specific. So, it was more easy to go with a luthier for that. And again, the guitar will cost me around 2500€. So it's not overpriced for such a beast. Maybe it will even cost me much more with a customized factory guitar.

    Hope now the purpose and specs of this "insane" guitar are more clear !
    Thanks again for you help !;)
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
  9. grigou

    grigou SS.org Regular

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    No other advices about Bare Knucles pickups ?
     
  10. KnightBrolaire

    KnightBrolaire gearwhoricus americanus

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    Painkiller will sound like ass for extended chords (at least based off my experience with the 6 string version) but kills for tight meshuggah esque riffs. Painkiller also has this kind of hairy high end/spikey upper mids that don't always mesh with brighter guitars/amps.
    For 8 strings I'd recommend actually looking into more medium output pickups like the Black Dog bridge. The medium output and overall voicing makes extended chord voicings useful, especially since there's good string to string separation. The black dog is more than capable of going from meshuggah to blues to jazz. It helps that the black dog pairs really well with the cold sweat too (I had them paired up in one of my 8 strings). The black dog doesn't have a super stiff low end like the painkiller or M8 but it's definitely tight enough for meshuggah esque riffs (especially with a tubescreamer boost in front of it).
    black dog demos:
    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/d1fw42rqz69lgy7/AABiCZfo-RrGWMThJVrXPaQwa?dl=0

    If you're open to other brands the elysian goliath is quite versatile and has fantastic clarity.
    here's a demo I did of em:
     

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